Koch Bros. Conference: ‘The Many Benefits of Atmospheric CO2 Enrichment’

Orwellian

One of the latest front groups organized by the Koch Brothers has the lofty-yet-innocuous sounding name, “The American Legislative Exchange Council (ALEC),” and Think Progress has a photo of the ugly anti-scientific literature they’re distributing: At Koch’s ALEC Conference: ‘The Many Benefits Of Atmospheric CO2 Enrichment’.

Also see

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621 comments

1 Obdicut  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 6:28:43pm

Nihilistic assholes.

And their bullshit is working. Aided and abetted by the GOP and the rest of the right-wing media.

2 Surabaya Stew  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 6:30:27pm

This is a joke, right?

Errr, right?

A joke, please tell me this is a joke!

Somebody? Please?

3 albusteve  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 6:30:58pm

the subject is dead...this pre-emptive propaganda is just a hedge against any resurrection of reason....where are the GW champions?

4 jaunte  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 6:31:13pm

re: #2 Surabaya Stew

Oniony, isn't it?

5 Gus  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 6:31:22pm

Republican Party science hard at work again. Make that industry propaganda for the ignorant masses for the Republican Party to spread around while they protect their rich corporate friends.

6 albusteve  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 6:31:55pm

re: #1 Obdicut

Nihilistic assholes.

And their bullshit is working. Aided and abetted by the GOP and the rest of the right-wing media.

so the experts roll over...nice

7 Kragar  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 6:32:10pm

/Facepalm

8 Obdicut  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 6:33:36pm

re: #3 albusteve

.where are the GW champions?

All over the place. On Youtube, amongst the Democrats, even a ton of ex-GOP officials, etc. Hell, Bush the latter acknowledged AGW.

But you see, Steve, the Koch's and other sin the industry spend millions and millions obfuscating the subject, and the entire GOP helps them along their way, lying to the American people about probably the greatest danger ever to face us.

Yay.

9 Obdicut  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 6:33:55pm

re: #6 albusteve

so the experts roll over...nice

Who has 'rolled over', Steve?

10 Big Joe  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 6:34:42pm

Their website here.

11 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 6:36:45pm

[head hits the desk]

12 laZardo  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 6:36:58pm

re: #8 Obdicut

All over the place. On Youtube, amongst the Democrats, even a ton of ex-GOP officials, etc. Hell, Bush the latter acknowledged AGW.

But you see, Steve, the Koch's and other sin the industry spend millions and millions obfuscating the subject, and the entire GOP helps them along their way, lying to the American people about probably the greatest danger ever to face us.

Yay.

And the best bit about it is they'll all be dead of old age before the consequences really bite future generations in the ass.

13 Kragar  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 6:37:33pm

Coming soon:

The health benefits of heavy metals in drinking waters
low yield radiation exposure: How we can all get super powers

14 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 6:37:42pm

re: #10 mracb

Their website here.

We need Ludwig for this. He's our best for knocking this sort of thing down.

15 Surabaya Stew  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 6:39:45pm

re: #4 jaunte

Oniony, isn't it?

I assumed it was, until I saw the thinkprogress.org URL. I'm still thinking it could have been a plant from a Yes Men-like faction, because there's no way in my mind that somebody would actually believe this!

However, when I put it in perspective with the recent TP events in congress and State-sponsored Christian prayer in Texas, I'm reluctantly forced to change my assumptions.

16 jaunte  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 6:40:12pm

Center for the Study of CO2 and Global Change:

Policy: funding, funders kept confidential
On the Center's website, Sherwood B. Idso writes that "our typical response is that we never discuss our funding. Why? Because we believe that ideas about the way the world of nature operates should stand or fall on their own merits, irrespective of the source of support for the person or organization that produces them.
[Link: www.sourcewatch.org...]
17 albusteve  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 6:40:38pm

re: #8 Obdicut

All over the place. On Youtube, amongst the Democrats, even a ton of ex-GOP officials, etc. Hell, Bush the latter acknowledged AGW.

But you see, Steve, the Koch's and other sin the industry spend millions and millions obfuscating the subject, and the entire GOP helps them along their way, lying to the American people about probably the greatest danger ever to face us.

Yay.

my 90 year old AGW skeptic mom has no clue about youtube or what democrats have to say...climate change proponents need a plan...the average voter is not gonna sit still for a physics sermon...as time goes by and there is no blowback the deniers become more entrenched....really shitty PR

18 Gus  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 6:41:33pm

Craig D. Idso

Click here for profile.

Affiliations

Center for the Study of Carbon Dioxide and Global Change - Chairman of the Board, Founder and Former President.
Committee for a Constructive Tomorrow (CFACT) — Previously on the Board of Advisors.
Heartland Institute — Heartland "Expert" on global warming and a regular Speaker at Heartland Institute's climate change conferences.
George C. Marshall Institute — listed as an "expert."
Arizona State University Office of Cimatology — Graduate Research Associate
Western Fuels — suspected of funding the Center for the Study of Carbon Dioxide and Global Change.
Peabody Energy — former Director of Environmental Science.
Nongovernmental International Panel on Climate Change (NIPCC) — Co-editor
Science and Public Policy Institute (SPPI) — "Science Advisor" and lead author.
Office of Climatology, Arizona State University* — Graduate Research Associate.

*The Office of Climatology at Arizona State University is directed by climate skeptic Robert Balling and has received $49,500 from ExxonMobil since 1998.

Funding

The Center for the Study of Carbon Dioxide and Global Change has received $100,000 from ExxonMobil since 1998 and is suspected of being funded by the Western Fuels Association*.
CFACT has received $582,000 from ExxonMobil since 1998.
The Heartland Institute has received $676,500 from ExxonMobil since 1998 although they no longer disclose their funding sources.
The George C. Marshall Institute has received $840,000 from ExxonMobil since 1998.
The Arizona State University Office of Cimatology has received $49,500 from ExxonMobil since 1998.


19 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 6:41:50pm
How humanity and the rest of the biosphere will prosper from this amazing trace gas that so many have wrongfully characterized as a dangerous air pollutant.

Anyone repeating such ridiculous memes should be forced to watch this repeatedly until their head dislodges from their ass.

20 recusancy  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 6:41:58pm

re: #17 albusteve

my 90 year old AGW skeptic mom has no clue about youtube or what democrats have to say...climate change proponents need a plan...the average voter is not gonna sit still for a physics sermon...as time goes by and there is no blowback the deniers become more entrenched...really shitty PR

She won't listen to you either?

21 Gus  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 6:42:09pm

Wow. Look at all of that funding from Exxon? You think that means anything?

//

22 albusteve  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 6:42:35pm

re: #20 recusancy

She won't listen to you either?

why should she?...I'm no expert

23 Obdicut  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 6:42:40pm

re: #14 Dark_Falcon

It's not hard to knock down absolute and complete lies of the kind favored by the Koch's and the GOP on the subject of AGW.

AGW is, and always has been, very simple:

1. CO2 traps heat in an atmosphere. This is easily demonstrable in a greenhouse or any number of other experiments.

2. The concentration of CO2 in the atmosphere is rising, in proportions that correlate closely with the amount of CO2 that mankind has been putting out into the atmosphere.

3. An increase in heat has been observed, which is exactly what you'd expect with CO2 increasing. It would be astounding to find out otherwise.

It doesn't matter what other properties CO2 could possibly have; that is AGW, and that is going to really be terrible for all of humanity.

And that is what I have heard nothing but lies about from the GOP for years now.

24 justaminute  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 6:44:31pm

I 'm just starting to get quite a bit of the story on ALEC. Oklahoma legislators are quite active in ALEC. Surprise, surprise not.

If I had time to put a page up, I would because it is quite deserving of more attention than it has been getting. It has 0 attention in the MSM.

This is a little take out of ALEC's founder:

ALEC was founded in 1973 by conservative activist Paul Weyrich.

Quote by Paul Weyrich:

"Now many of our Christians have what I call the goo-goo syndrome — good government. They want everybody to vote. I don't want everybody to vote. Elections are not won by a majority of people, they never have been from the beginning of our country and they are not now. As a matter of fact, our leverage in the elections quite candidly goes up as the voting populace goes down."

I hope some one with more time, which I don't at the moment could go after them.

25 albusteve  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 6:45:21pm

re: #23 Obdicut

It's not hard to knock down absolute and complete lies of the kind favored by the Koch's and the GOP on the subject of AGW.

AGW is, and always has been, very simple:

1. CO2 traps heat in an atmosphere. This is easily demonstrable in a greenhouse or any number of other experiments.

2. The concentration of CO2 in the atmosphere is rising, in proportions that correlate closely with the amount of CO2 that mankind has been putting out into the atmosphere.

3. An increase in heat has been observed, which is exactly what you'd expect with CO2 increasing. It would be astounding to find out otherwise.

It doesn't matter what other properties CO2 could possibly have; that is AGW, and that is going to really be terrible for all of humanity.

And that is what I have heard nothing but lies about from the GOP for years now.

if it's so simple why don't people believe it?....facts don't matter, perception does...if you lay a bunch of science on some idiot then tell them to cough up trillions to hedge the problem, they will laugh at you and call you names....whatever AGW agents have done it didn't work

26 Prideful, Arrogant Marriage Equality Advocate  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 6:46:30pm

re: #13 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Nicotine: For happy healthy infants.

27 goddamnedfrank  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 6:46:39pm
28 jamesfirecat  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 6:47:08pm

Maybe BP can do a special on the wonders of the new Costal Sea Food... it comes Pre-Blackened!

29 Obdicut  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 6:48:11pm

re: #25 albusteve

Steve, it is not what the "AGW agent" have done, it's what the massive propaganda machine arrayed against them has done. It's what the anti-intellectual attitude parroted by brianless jerks and by canny politicians has done. It is not the fault of scientists that our culture is so moronic that it doesn't trust science. It is not the fault of scientists that they're not trusted.

The solution is to fight back against the anti-intellectual blather that the GOP is investing in so highly these days. It's the job of everyone who understands the problem to address it, because this nation is us, the people-- government can't fix our attitudes for us.

30 Prideful, Arrogant Marriage Equality Advocate  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 6:48:56pm

Sweat shops: Earn money and get in shape.

32 albusteve  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 6:49:38pm

AGW has to evolve into a national security issue, a comprehensive energy program where CO2 reduction is buried in the goo of fighting terrorism and weaning off ME supplies...not just the US, all of the west

33 goddamnedfrank  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 6:50:21pm

re: #28 jamesfirecat

Maybe BP can do a special on the wonders of the new Costal Sea Food... it comes Pre-Blackened!

Ceviche on the hook.

34 Kragar  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 6:51:03pm

re: #26 Cankles McCellulite

Nicotine: For happy healthy infants.

for the kids;

Roger the Unregulated Mining Rig
Ernie Entrepreneur versus the Evil EPA-asaurus

35 albusteve  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 6:51:13pm

re: #29 Obdicut

Steve, it is not what the "AGW agent" have done, it's what the massive propaganda machine arrayed against them has done. It's what the anti-intellectual attitude parroted by brianless jerks and by canny politicians has done. It is not the fault of scientists that our culture is so moronic that it doesn't trust science. It is not the fault of scientists that they're not trusted.

The solution is to fight back against the anti-intellectual blather that the GOP is investing in so highly these days. It's the job of everyone who understands the problem to address it, because this nation is us, the people-- government can't fix our attitudes for us.

stop with all the wind...I understand the massive propaganda, why do you think I'm posting what I do?

36 Killgore Trout  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 6:52:43pm

OK, I usually don't do the global warming thing but this is funny.

37 Prideful, Arrogant Marriage Equality Advocate  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 6:53:12pm

re: #34 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
Maybe Glenn Beck will do a children's Christmas book about a 3rd world made Christmas sweater and it's free market journey!

38 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 6:53:39pm

Knife Fighting: Donate Blood and impress Women

39 Idle Drifter  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 6:54:32pm

If there is one constant in nature is that nothing is linear for very long, if ever. A slight difference in the chemical composition in the atmosphere or the angle of the of light hitting the Earth may not seem like much to a laymen but the effects could be devastating.

The Sahara was once a Jungle. All it took was a slight shift in the Earth axis to change it into its present state.

My only regret is not finishing the show.

40 Kragar  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 6:55:33pm

re: #37 Cankles McCellulite

Maybe Glenn Beck will do a children's Christmas book about a 3rd world made Christmas sweater and it's free market journey!

The Ted Nugent Endangered Species Cookbook

41 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 6:55:47pm

Nuclear Winter: Snow Angles for Everyone!
and a welcome break from that global warming that isn't happening

42 albusteve  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 6:56:51pm

re: #41 Slumbering Behemoth

Nuclear Winter: Snow Angles for Everyone!
and a welcome break from that global warming that isn't happening

it's happening where I live...the relentless heat is pissing me off

43 Idle Drifter  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 6:56:53pm

re: #41 Slumbering Behemoth

Nuclear Winter: Snow Angles for Everyone!
and a welcome break from that global warming that isn't happening

Get out of here, STALKER!

44 Killgore Trout  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 6:58:51pm

Lead paint: delicious and natural. New foodie trend?
/fox news

45 laZardo  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 6:58:56pm

re: #43 Idle Drifter

Get out of here, STALKER!

To which I say/do...

46 Prideful, Arrogant Marriage Equality Advocate  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 6:59:31pm

re: #42 albusteve
It has been over 103 for the past few weeks here but as weather.com told me, it feels like 111.

47 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 7:00:02pm

re: #42 albusteve

it's happening where I live...the relentless heat is pissing me off

I feel your pain. I live in a part of CA where 97 degrees is referred to as "cooling temperatures".

48 goddamnedfrank  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 7:00:13pm

DDT: 'Cuz fuck those birds!

49 Kragar  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 7:00:30pm

re: #44 Killgore Trout

Lead paint: delicious and natural. New foodie trend?
/fox news

"We report, you blindly repeat what we say or Baby Jesus is going to cry"

50 Gus  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 7:00:31pm

re: #44 Killgore Trout

Lead paint: delicious and natural. New foodie trend?
/fox news

Tainted meat. Helps cut down on red meat consumption and heart disease.

//Ron Paul!

51 BongCrodny  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 7:00:41pm

I await with breathless anticipation their follow-up where they tell us why Lake Mead drying up is a good thing.

52 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 7:00:46pm

re: #41 Slumbering Behemoth

Nuclear Winter: Snow Angles for Everyone!
and a welcome break from that global warming that isn't happening

Made in Pakistan.

53 jaunte  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 7:00:49pm

re: #44 Killgore Trout

Lead paint: delicious and natural. New foodie trend?
/fox news

Tune in for pressure-washer preparation tips...

54 albusteve  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 7:00:54pm

re: #44 Killgore Trout

Lead paint: delicious and natural. New foodie trend?
/fox news

I lace my apple pies with asbestos....
what?

55 Idle Drifter  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 7:00:56pm

re: #45 laZardo

To which I say/do...

Shooting me only makes me angry!

56 Digital Display  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 7:01:38pm

re: #46 Cankles McCellulite

It has been over 103 for the past few weeks here but as weather.com told me, it feels like 111.

It is unbelievable in Oklahoma.. The Heat is melting me away...
My first summer here sets every record.. Figures..Story of my life
/

57 laZardo  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 7:01:41pm

re: #48 goddamnedfrank

DDT: 'Cuz fuck those birds!

PAGING WUB

58 Gus  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 7:01:49pm

re: #51 BongCrodny

I await with breathless anticipation their follow-up where they tell us why Lake Mead drying up is a good thing.

More farmland and subdividable land!

//

59 laZardo  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 7:02:39pm

Gold: Putting that extra bit of value in your electronics since 1980™©.

60 Gus  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 7:02:47pm

Lethal pandemics! Helps cut down on entitlement costs!

//Paul Ryan

61 goddamnedfrank  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 7:03:06pm

re: #57 laZardo

PAGING WUB

Birds are just dinosaurs that didn't get the goddamned memo.

62 albusteve  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 7:03:54pm

re: #56 HoosierHoops

It is unbelievable in Oklahoma.. The Heat is melting me away...
My first summer here sets every record.. Figures..Story of my life
/

the Pharaoh of Norman....
import ice from the North

63 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 7:04:33pm

Increased occurrences of hurricanes and tsunamis to increase economic activity in the wind surfing and surf board markets, create new jobs.

64 albusteve  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 7:05:08pm

re: #59 laZardo

Gold: Putting that extra bit of value in your electronics since 1980™©.

gold?...you can make a living with that stuff

65 Prideful, Arrogant Marriage Equality Advocate  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 7:05:19pm

re: #60 Gus 802

Dames: How to work with em'.

66 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 7:05:38pm

Fucking magnets. How do they work?

67 BongCrodny  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 7:05:56pm

Zombie Apocalypse: threat to mankind or cheap labor source?

68 Idle Drifter  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 7:08:13pm

re: #66 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Fucking magnets. How do they work?

Ever heat a magnet and watch fluctuate between heating and cooling?

69 Jaerik  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 7:09:38pm

I'm surprised more people don't equate climate change denial with the tactics once used to deny that cigarettes cause lung cancer.

70 Digital Display  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 7:10:54pm

re: #62 albusteve

the Pharaoh of Norman...
import ice from the North


It's sad here..Half of university commons burned down Friday night..The temps were like 110 and a few blocks away...Watching on the Big Screen at the Moose after work was really surreal..PLL is friends with 3 people from there...It really sucks for Oklahoma right now....

71 jaunte  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 7:11:03pm

re: #69 Jaerik

Planet Earth: "It's toasted!"

72 albusteve  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 7:11:34pm

re: #69 Jaerik

I'm surprised more people don't equate climate change denial with the tactics once used to deny that cigarettes cause lung cancer.

few people are even interested in AGW anymore...the time is ripe to plough around the bend and address the problem from the rear

73 recusancy  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 7:12:37pm

re: #71 jaunte

Planet Earth: "It's toasted!"

I wouldn't have gotten that if I hadn't started watching Mad Men this weekend.

74 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 7:13:12pm

re: #26 Cankles McCellulite

Nicotine: For happy healthy infants.

Smoking during pregnancy lowers birthrates; making babies easier to deliver.

75 Idle Drifter  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 7:13:30pm

re: #70 HoosierHoops

It almost seems pointless to build above ground. I'd rather hang around in a cave.

76 albusteve  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 7:13:37pm

re: #70 HoosierHoops

It's sad here..Half of university commons burned down Friday night..The temps were like 110 and a few blocks away...Watching on the Big Screen at the Moose after work was really surreal..PLL is friends with 3 people from there...It really sucks for Oklahoma right now...

I feel for you...but those people up there are as tough as they get, it will rebound....OK is not for wimps

77 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 7:14:22pm

re: #74 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Smoking during pregnancy lowers birthratesweights; making babies easier to deliver.

Way to kill an obviously ridiculous example of using the ridiculous to illustrate the ridiculous.

78 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 7:14:54pm

re: #51 BongCrodny

I await with breathless anticipation their follow-up where they tell us why Lake Mead drying up is a good thing.

It was pouring rain here in Chicago a few hours ago, if that helps.

79 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 7:15:24pm

re: #74 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Boy, I'd love to have that thirty second edit window.

80 The Yankee  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 7:16:21pm

I wonder if they mention Soda as one of the positives of CO2?

81 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 7:17:46pm

re: #51 BongCrodny

I await with breathless anticipation their follow-up where they tell us why Lake Mead drying up is a good thing.

Well, I can't tell you why the lake is drying up. But I can tell you that Lake Mead is in an area about as desolate as the moon and people were not designed to live there.

82 albusteve  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 7:19:14pm

re: #81 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Well, I can't tell you why the lake is drying up. But I can tell you that Lake Mead is in an area about as desolate as the moon and people were not designed to live there.

the CO river is drying up...pretty simple bro...
there is no snow, there is no rain...there is no water

83 goddamnedfrank  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 7:19:26pm

Repeal child labor and workplace safety laws? Why, it'd be irresponsible not to. Who are you to keep barefooted seven year olds from working in power belted textile mills?

84 Gus  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 7:21:01pm

Blindness helps cut down on energy costs.

//

85 Gus  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 7:21:36pm

Constipation saves paper and eventually trees making for a healthier environment.

//

86 austin_blue  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 7:22:55pm

The amazing thing is that there are people out there who will believe this unadulterated Bullshit that the Koch's are selling.

These "humans" (I use the word with caveats) have an agenda that will result in the actual deaths of actual human beings. They are the poster children for increased regulation.

87 Digital Display  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 7:23:11pm

re: #76 albusteve

I feel for you...but those people up there are as tough as they get, it will rebound...OK is not for wimps

I am very impressed with this town...
Living in a College town has been awesome.. I've met so many people...
Never in my life have I ever met so many friendly people.. and when we had our Tornadoes everybody came together to help their neighbors out..
I like it here..even if it is a million degrees this summer..

88 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 7:23:13pm

re: #82 albusteve

Of course. But a bunch of the Colorado's water is used to make the inhabitable habitable. That's all I'm saying.

Ain't denying or confirming anything.

89 Interesting Times  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 7:24:22pm

Droughts in Africa reduce the surplus population, thus resulting in fewer people dependent on foreign aid.

90 Gus  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 7:25:03pm

re: #88 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Of course. But a bunch of the Colorado's water is used to make the inhabitable habitable. That's all I'm saying.

Ain't denying or confirming anything.

I think you mean uninhabitable. :)

91 albusteve  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 7:25:13pm

re: #87 HoosierHoops

I am very impressed with this town...
Living in a College town has been awesome.. I've met so many people...
Never in my life have I ever met so many friendly people.. and when we had our Tornadoes everybody came together to help their neighbors out..
I like it here..even if it is a million degrees this summer..

good for you...a Sports Nirvana neighborhood too...heh

92 Interesting Times  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 7:27:01pm

re: #86 austin_blue

The amazing thing is that there are people out there who will believe this unadulterated Bullshit that the Koch's are selling.

These "humans" (I use the word with caveats) have an agenda that will result has already resulted in the actual deaths of actual human beings. They are the poster children for increased regulation.

Fixed.

93 albusteve  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 7:27:04pm

re: #88 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Of course. But a bunch of the Colorado's water is used to make the inhabitable habitable. That's all I'm saying.

Ain't denying or confirming anything.

it is what it is now...Vegas/LA need to figure it out...at their own expense

94 The Yankee  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 7:27:10pm

re: #87 HoosierHoops

I am very impressed with this town...
Living in a College town has been awesome.. I've met so many people...
Never in my life have I ever met so many friendly people.. and when we had our Tornadoes everybody came together to help their neighbors out..
I like it here..even if it is a million degrees this summer..

Don't trust them it is all a trick these people are well known CANNIBALS!!!!!

95 laZardo  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 7:28:44pm

re: #89 publicityStunted

Don't forget fewer Muslims to spread their hatred of everyone else.

96 BongCrodny  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 7:30:42pm

re: #81 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Well, I can't tell you why the lake is drying up. But I can tell you that Lake Mead is in an area about as desolate as the moon and people were not designed to live there.


I've got no argument with that. Las Vegas in and of itself is a pretty stupid concept, and I speak as someone who's planted his big ol' carbon footprint in LV on occasion.

Still, water drying up anywhere scares the hell out of me.

Bad mojo.

97 lostlakehiker  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 7:31:40pm

re: #17 albusteve

my 90 year old AGW skeptic mom has no clue about youtube or what democrats have to say...climate change proponents need a plan...the average voter is not gonna sit still for a physics sermon...as time goes by and there is no blowback the deniers become more entrenched...really shitty PR

It doesn't take a physics sermon. It does take persistence and patience. It also takes anecdotes.

Has this summer been a bitch, or what? Tornadoes killing hundreds at a single pop, drought destroying the crops and the grazing in Texas, temperatures over 100 day after day, week after week.

What about the famine in Somalia? It can't have been this bad all along, or there wouldn't have been anybody there in the first place to now starve.

Didja hear about the floods in Pakistan? The forest fires darkening the skies of Moscow last summer, with temperatures pushing 100? Right, Moscow, the place where the Nazi juggernaut froze to death?

See the haboob rolling over Albuquerque?

Take a look at these before and after pictures of Glacier National Park. Nothing much left of 'em, is there?

There's an endless mass of such material. AGW is hitting our lives right now. Sure, from time to time there's some cold snap and Dime Box TX sets a new record low for the day. But far more record highs are being posted nowadays than record lows.

Conversions are not to be accomplished in a day, or a week. Or in a year, perhaps. An arrogant tone is not an asset, even though you really do know you're right. And some folk will never come around.

And the lung cancer-smoking tie in is real. Some of the exact same corporations have moved from shilling for the cigarette companies, to shilling for the Koch line. "Doubt is their product" is the title of a book citing chapter and verse on this.

It's probably best to grant that increased CO2 does in fact have numerous benefits. There's the CO2 fertilization effect. [If the atmosphere contained no CO2 at all, nothing much could grow on land.] Irkutsk, Russia, will have a milder climate. Greenland's growing season will be extended, and the retreat of the ice caps will open new land to cultivation.

You see where I'm going with this? What's good for the few is bad, very bad, for the many. There's more people in Miami, or New Orleans, than in Greenland. The retreat of the icecap has consequences. Water now stored as ice atop the landmass will go into the oceans and raise sea level. Even a 3 foot rise over the century, and that would be just a down payment on what we're in store for if we don't get a handle on world consumption of fossil fuels, just 3 feet is no small thing.

Airports, roads, levees? Not built for a new and higher sea level. It'll be expensive to replace or rebuild them.

What about our crops? What about our beef supply? A year from now, the price of beef will be much higher, because so many ranchers had to sell off their herds. No grass, no beef. All things being equal, temperature-wise, CO2 is a bit of a help to plant growth. But all things are not held equal. The price of that CO2 is higher temperatures, and the price is too damned high.

We don't have to convince everyone. The very old are mostly set in their ways, but they won't be setting policy a decade from now. This is a long, slow haul, and while there's no time to waste, there's time to make the case.

The Koch brothers can't stuff the genie of science, nor the daily weather news, back in the bottle. Eventually, we'll win this debate.

98 eightyfiv  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 7:31:49pm

That's disgustingly disingenuous. Even if the science *were* valid, it's a direct admission that industrial CO2 emissions will have a strong and observable impact on the environment. In other words, it expresses agreement with the fact that we're performing a giant, uncontrolled experiment on the planet, with extremely high likelihood of meaningful consequences. What kind of fool thinks this is a good idea? Got a back-up planet we can use if we mess this one up?

99 austin_blue  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 7:34:28pm

re: #98 eightyfiv

That's disgustingly disingenuous. Even if the science *weren't* valid, it's a direct admission that industrial CO2 emissions will have a strong and observable impact on the environment. In other words, it expresses agreement with the fact that we're performing a giant, uncontrolled experiment on the planet, with extremely high likelihood of meaningful consequences. What kind of fool thinks this is a good idea? Got a back-up planet we can use if we mess this one up?

FTFY

100 laZardo  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 7:34:41pm

re: #97 lostlakehiker

My thesis design was an aquatic dredger designed to be deployed during floods. Basically "high tide" garbage trucks of 2050.

I'm not getting my hopes up on victory.

101 Gus  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 7:35:39pm

re: #96 BongCrodny

I've got no argument with that. Las Vegas in and of itself is a pretty stupid concept, and I speak as someone who's planted his big ol' carbon footprint in LV on occasion.

Still, water drying up anywhere scares the hell out of me.

Bad mojo.

Blech. I drove through Vegas. My friend lives there so I spent several hours there with them. I didn't say anything to him but damn what a mess. Old broken down highway running through the middle of town. Ugle buildings everywhere. Dirty streets. Bail bondsman, fly by night attorneys. Lots of poverty and crime too. You would think that will all of that money it would be otherwise. But this is the American way. Huge profits over societal interests.

102 Digital Display  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 7:36:23pm

re: #94 The Yankee

Don't trust them it is all a trick these people are well known CANNIBALS!!!

LOL
You know a couple of years ago I was slated for Singapore...So for 6 months I'm making plans..Getting a dog into Singapore is a bitch..
But my mind set was an apt. in the trade free zone in Singapore
Then orders came from on high.. You are going to Oklahoma..I was shocked! So here I am! I bought a cowboy hat...It's fun...Norman is an Island of Blue in a sea of Red of Oklahoma.. It's a great town..And in two weeks they will all be back again..35,000 kids that can't drive worth sh*t

103 BongCrodny  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 7:39:26pm

Haven't seen this posted here yet, but it's appropriate for the thread. My apologies if someone beat me to the punch.

Discovery News: Texas Town to Recycle Urine

104 Dancing along the light of day  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 7:40:46pm

re: #56 HoosierHoops

It is unbelievable in Oklahoma.. The Heat is melting me away...
My first summer here sets every record.. Figures..Story of my life
/

You're just hot, why are you complaining?
///
8waves8

105 laZardo  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 7:41:25pm

re: #101 Gus 802

Blech. I drove through Vegas. My friend lives there so I spent several hours there with them. I didn't say anything to him but damn what a mess. Old broken down highway running through the middle of town. Ugle buildings everywhere. Dirty streets. Bail bondsman, fly by night attorneys. Lots of poverty and crime too. You would think that will all of that money it would be otherwise. But this is the American way. Huge profits over societal interests.

Operative word. q;

106 eightyfiv  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 7:41:32pm

re: #99 austin_blue

Meh, t'was an ambiguous antecedent. I meant the "science" in the report.

107 freetoken  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 7:44:04pm

The Idso clan has been at this for quite some time, with all the attendant faux-journal articles, distorted science one would expect.

The Idso's (father and son) are to Climate Change what Henry Morris and Ken Ham are to Evolution.

108 justaminute  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 7:48:18pm

I have been surfing the web so much on the ALEC topic that a quote I saved and I didn't make a link. Stupid of me but oh well, nothing new. It was a good descriptor of ALEC but you can find others that are similar. Here it is:

"ALEC is not a lobby; it is not a front group. It is much more powerful than that. Through ALEC, behind closed doors, corporations hand state legislators the changes to the law they desire that directly benefit their bottom line.

Along with legislators, corporations have full membership standing in ALEC. Corporations sit on all nine ALEC task forces and vote with legislators to approve “model” bills. They have their own corporate governing board, which has a second, final vote on all legislation. They fund almost all of ALEC's operations. Participating legislators, overwhelmingly conservative Republicans, then bring those proposals home and introduce them in statehouses across the land as their own brilliant ideas and important public policy innovations—without disclosing that corporations crafted and voted on the bills.

ALEC boasts that it has over 1,000 of these bills introduced by legislative members every year, with one in every five of them enacted into law. ALEC describes itself as a “unique,” “unparalleled” and “unmatched” organization. We agree. It is as if a state legislature had been reconstituted, yet corporations had pushed the people out the door."

Interest in this is just starting. There are quite a few Corporations besides the Kock Boys involved with ALEC. No wonder the MSM is absent on the subject.

109 austin_blue  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 7:48:37pm

re: #106 eightyfiv

Meh, t'was an ambiguous antecedent. I meant the "science" in the report.

(sorry)

110 lostlakehiker  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 7:48:49pm

re: #101 Gus 802

Blech. I drove through Vegas. My friend lives there so I spent several hours there with them. I didn't say anything to him but damn what a mess. Old broken down highway running through the middle of town. Ugle buildings everywhere. Dirty streets. Bail bondsman, fly by night attorneys. Lots of poverty and crime too. You would think that will all of that money it would be otherwise. But this is the American way. Huge profits over societal interests.

What huge profits? Here's a site with a graph of casino stocks vs. the overall market. Note that casino stocks are, well, a gamble. Right now, they're tanking relative to the market as a whole. volatile stocks

Trump Entertainment Resorts went bankrupt. broke

This same site has a table over on the upper right, giving Friday's (August 5, 2011) stock results. On a day when the DJIA went up, almost all the stocks are down. One is down 27%.

Property values have collapsed in Las Vegas. Cities with burgeoning business don't rank number 1 in the category of worst drop in housing prices.

Today's economy is not producing happy, flush, confident bettors who imagine that their luck in the real world will translate to luck at games they can't possibly beat for long.

Such confidence is always misplaced, but right now, it's just about nonexistent.

Neither is there much of a supply of people who just want a lark and don't much care if they lose. People with money they might have had to burn have already lost gut churning sums of home equity and 401K value.

Las Vegas is getting poor because willing, gaily indifferent losers are what fueled the growth of Las Vegas, and they're just not around in the numbers they used to be.

111 Digital Display  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 7:48:54pm

re: #104 Floral Giraffe

You're just hot, why are you complaining?
///
8waves8

You open the door and blasting hot wind blows in..You shut the door against your back and wonder what the heck is going on...I hate walking to the car...over 105 the A/C doesn't even work..You blow hot air inside..I really can't believe how long this has going on... I'll stop crying now..but bebezeessus!

112 Gus  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 7:48:56pm

re: #105 laZardo

Operative word. q;

Once upon a time I had high hopes for humanity. That lasted about one hour.

113 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 7:49:05pm

re: #103 BongCrodny

Haven't seen this posted here yet, but it's appropriate for the thread. My apologies if someone beat me to the punch.

Discovery News: Texas Town to Recycle Urine

It may be the way of the future down there if things don't change.

114 Achilles Tang  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 7:50:37pm

re: #17 albusteve

...the average voter is not gonna sit still for a physics sermon...

So, if education is worthless on your average voter what is this plan you imagine? (Needless to say, you are in a position to educate your 90 year old mother if she still votes).

115 lostlakehiker  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 7:52:06pm

re: #103 BongCrodny

Haven't seen this posted here yet, but it's appropriate for the thread. My apologies if someone beat me to the punch.

Discovery News: Texas Town to Recycle Urine

In a pinch, you can just drink it. The kidneys will have to work harder the second time around, but if thirst is literally a life or death situation, it's drinkable.

Unlike fecal matter, urine is generally sterile. There. See, another benefit of global warming. People have reason to learn new things. ///

116 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 7:52:07pm

whisky tango foxtrot, over.
[Link: mumbai.craigslist.co.in...]

117 austin_blue  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 7:52:13pm

re: #113 Dark_Falcon

It may be the way of the future down there if things don't change.

And if urine the recycling business, urine the money.

Bygones!

118 Interesting Times  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 7:53:18pm

re: #103 BongCrodny

Haven't seen this posted here yet, but it's appropriate for the thread. My apologies if someone beat me to the punch.

Discovery News: Texas Town to Recycle Urine

Gives a whole new meaning to the phrase "trickle down".

Keep voting for climate change deniers and their enablers, because you'll love the cool, refreshing taste of recycled piss You're In For a Treat!®

119 Gus  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 7:53:27pm

re: #110 lostlakehiker

What huge profits? Here's a site with a graph of casino stocks vs. the overall market. Note that casino stocks are, well, a gamble. Right now, they're tanking relative to the market as a whole. volatile stocks

Trump Entertainment Resorts went bankrupt. broke

This same site has a table over on the upper right, giving Friday's (August 5, 2011) stock results. On a day when the DJIA went up, almost all the stocks are down. One is down 27%.

Property values have collapsed in Las Vegas. Cities with burgeoning business don't rank number 1 in the category of worst drop in housing prices.

Today's economy is not producing happy, flush, confident bettors who imagine that their luck in the real world will translate to luck at games they can't possibly beat for long.

Such confidence is always misplaced, but right now, it's just about nonexistent.

Neither is there much of a supply of people who just want a lark and don't much care if they lose. People with money they might have had to burn have already lost gut churning sums of home equity and 401K value.

Las Vegas is getting poor because willing, gaily indifferent losers are what fueled the growth of Las Vegas, and they're just not around in the numbers they used to be.

Yeah. And the poor people have air conditioning. Whatever. If I wanted to read this bullshit right now I'd go over to Heritage.

120 Big Joe  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 7:54:04pm

re: #115 lostlakehiker

In a pinch, you can just drink it. The kidneys will have to work harder the second time around, but if thirst is literally a life or death situation, it's drinkable.

Unlike fecal matter, urine is generally sterile. There. See, another benefit of global warming. People have reason to learn new things. ///

kinda nsfw

121 Dancing along the light of day  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 7:56:08pm

re: #111 HoosierHoops

Move to California!
It was that hot in Austin, when i visited with my nephew.
A very good reason to live near the coast.
*smooch*

122 laZardo  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 7:58:17pm

re: #115 lostlakehiker

In a pinch, you can just drink it. The kidneys will have to work harder the second time around, but if thirst is literally a life or death situation, it's drinkable.

Unlike fecal matter, urine is generally sterile. There. See, another benefit of global warming. People have reason to learn new things. ///

Thank you Bear Grylls.

/ :B

123 Big Joe  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 7:58:25pm

re: #121 Floral Giraffe

Move to California!
It was that hot in Austin, when i visited with my nephew.
A very good reason to live near the coast.
*smooch*

The past 3 years have been very mild here in California. I don't want to brag, I might jinx it. It has been hard to get a garden started because plants don't know what season it is anymore.

124 austin_blue  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 7:58:30pm

re: #121 Floral Giraffe

Move to California!
It was that hot in Austin, when i visited with my nephew.
A very good reason to live near the coast.
*smooch*

I don't want to pay for a potting shed what I paid for my house.

125 Dancing along the light of day  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 7:59:29pm

re: #124 austin_blue

Well, we all make choices! Austin seemed a nice place, except for the summer heat! LOVED the bats!

126 Kragar  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 7:59:46pm

re: #122 laZardo

Thank you Bear Grylls.

/ :B

Image: memes-bear-grylls-finally-found-fresh-water.jpg

127 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 8:00:27pm

re: #117 austin_blue

And if urine the recycling business, urine the money.

Bygones!

Bygones? Were you an Ally McBeal fan back in the day, Austin?

128 jaunte  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 8:09:57pm

Tea Partiers Cheer the Downgrade of America's Credit Rating

SHEA KING: This week—I wrote it down—they are blaming the credit downgrade on the tea party movement.

CROWD: Yeah! [Cheers, clapping]

SHEA KING: They are calling it "the tea party downgrade." They are objectivizing [sic] us.

There you have it. At least here in Wisconsin, tea partiers are pleased that the full faith and credit of America took a knock, and are more than happy to take full credit for it.


Video at link.

129 HappyWarrior  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 8:11:50pm

re: #128 jaunte

Tea Partiers Cheer the Downgrade of America's Credit Rating


Video at link.

And they wonder why people think they're douches who care only about making Obama and the Democrats look bad. They deserve the criticism they get. As for this Koch Bros Conference, this is fucked up to say the least. Not surprising I guess though.

130 Surabaya Stew  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 8:14:55pm

re: #102 HoosierHoops

LOL
You know a couple of years ago I was slated for Singapore...So for 6 months I'm making plans..Getting a dog into Singapore is a bitch..
But my mind set was an apt. in the trade free zone in Singapore
Then orders came from on high.. You are going to Oklahoma..I was shocked! So here I am! I bought a cowboy hat...It's fun...Norman is an Island of Blue in a sea of Red of Oklahoma.. It's a great town..And in two weeks they will all be back again..35,000 kids that can't drive worth sh*t

Yeah, I remember that....was going to email you my SE Asia traveling and living advice. Sorry I never got around to writing them up, but from what you're saying, it's just as well that Oklahoma took Singapore's place! Glad you're doing fine where you are.

131 Interesting Times  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 8:16:16pm

re: #128 jaunte

Tea Partiers Cheer the Downgrade of America's Credit Rating

SHEA KING: They are calling it "the tea party downgrade." They are objectivizing [sic] us.

When you consider that Ayn Rand's philosophy is called "Objectivism", this palinism on the part of Shea King takes on a whole new meaning.

132 austin_blue  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 8:20:42pm

re: #127 Dark_Falcon

Bygones? Were you an Ally McBeal fan back in the day, Austin?

Lucy Liu...

Yummy...

133 ProGunLiberal  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 8:22:48pm

re: #102 HoosierHoops

Including me!

I'll admit to be a black ace with my car.

As well as having 20 parking tickets, and three normal tickets.

I've gotten better since the last one.

134 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 8:23:11pm

re: #128 jaunte

Tea Partiers Cheer the Downgrade of America's Credit Rating


Video at link.

Is she utterly insane?

135 ProGunLiberal  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 8:24:59pm

re: #134 Dark_Falcon

Is the sky blue?

Seriously, non-understanding of essential concepts seems to be part-and-parcel of the Tea Party.

Also, I have headache, so Libya thing is tomorrow.

136 RadicalModerate  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 8:25:26pm

I think this T-shirt design says it all:

TP-Koch design

137 laZardo  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 8:25:49pm

re: #136 RadicalModerate

Works better than Boehnerlickers.

138 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 8:28:07pm

re: #135 ProLifeLiberal

Is the sky blue?

Seriously, non-understanding of essential concepts seems to be part-and-parcel of the Tea Party.

Also, I have headache, so Libya thing is tomorrow.

Feel better, PLL.

139 laZardo  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 8:29:06pm

re: #135 ProLifeLiberal

Is the sky blue?

Seriously, non-understanding of essential concepts seems to be part-and-parcel of the Tea Party.

Also, I have headache, so Libya thing is tomorrow.

But I don't wanna wait till tomorrow! ;_;

140 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 8:29:35pm

Hey all!

How has the day been?

141 HappyWarrior  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 8:30:07pm

OT but I just got back from a fun weekend in Pittsburgh. Went to a game at PNC Park which is just an awesome place to see a baseball stadium. Got a signed ball and my youngest brother photographed with former Pirate great Manny Sanguiien who was a nice guy. And got to see the house where my grandfather lived as a kid and where my great great grandfather owned a blacksmith shop. Lots of beautiful bridges too.

142 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 8:31:53pm

re: #141 HappyWarrior

OT but I just got back from a fun weekend in Pittsburgh. Went to a game at PNC Park which is just an awesome place to see a baseball stadium. Got a signed ball and my youngest brother photographed with former Pirate great Manny Sanguiien who was a nice guy. And got to see the house where my grandfather lived as a kid and where my great great grandfather owned a blacksmith shop. Lots of beautiful bridges too.

Did you drive on the treacherous turnpike or fly?

143 HappyWarrior  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 8:32:38pm

re: #142 ggt

Did you drive on the treacherous turnpike or fly?

Drove with my dad and brothers. Bit of a pain but we camped outside the city.

144 laZardo  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 8:33:00pm

re: #140 ggt

Hey all!

How has the day been?

Writing up a resume for Microsoft Advertising.

Also :I

You?

145 William Barnett-Lewis  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 8:37:40pm

Ok, past 100, here's a bit from the "You can't make this shit up" category - a man shoots himself in the penis with his fiance's pink pistol.

[Link: www.abc15.com...]

146 Daniel Ballard  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 8:38:59pm

re: #140 ggt

Relaxing and even a little productive. Learning Final Draft script software.

147 laZardo  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 8:39:00pm

re: #145 wlewisiii

Ok, past 100, here's a bit from the "You can't make this shit up" category - a man shoots himself in the penis with his fiance's pink pistol.

[Link: www.abc15.com...]

And that...

B|

...is why you never bring a sword to a gunfight.

148 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 8:40:57pm

re: #144 laZardo

Writing up a resume for Microsoft Advertising.

Also :I

You?

Trying to decide if I am getting sick or if the allergies are just really bad. Took meds, but still have that "I feel like I"m getting sick feeling". Allergy symptoms have abated.

I don't wanna be sick.

149 laZardo  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 8:41:32pm

re: #148 ggt

Speaking of which, skin has been peeling like fuck recently and I apparently have an allergic reaction to the moisturizer. D:

150 Gus  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 8:41:46pm

re: #110 lostlakehiker

What huge profits? Here's a site with a graph of casino stocks vs. the overall market. Note that casino stocks are, well, a gamble. Right now, they're tanking relative to the market as a whole. volatile stocks

Trump Entertainment Resorts went bankrupt. broke

This same site has a table over on the upper right, giving Friday's (August 5, 2011) stock results. On a day when the DJIA went up, almost all the stocks are down. One is down 27%.

Property values have collapsed in Las Vegas. Cities with burgeoning business don't rank number 1 in the category of worst drop in housing prices.

Today's economy is not producing happy, flush, confident bettors who imagine that their luck in the real world will translate to luck at games they can't possibly beat for long.

Such confidence is always misplaced, but right now, it's just about nonexistent.

Neither is there much of a supply of people who just want a lark and don't much care if they lose. People with money they might have had to burn have already lost gut churning sums of home equity and 401K value.

Las Vegas is getting poor because willing, gaily indifferent losers are what fueled the growth of Las Vegas, and they're just not around in the numbers they used to be.

My point, “Lostlakehiker” wasn’t about the current state of the economy in Las Vegas. The casinos are posting lower profits simply because it is a reflection of the overall state of the economy. People are traveling less and gambling less. My point is that over the years, Las Vegas, like the majority of cities in this country has failed to invest in it infrastructure. This for a city known for generating wealth numbering in the billions since it’s founding in the 50s.

It is clear that many people amassed large sums of riches through their capitalist venture in Vegas. This includes Donald Trump who you mentioned regardless of the failure of Trump casinos. He literally walked away with the bank through his bankruptcy. He is not the sole person involved in making riches through the predatory casino industry. Tax shelters, tax exemptions and write offs have contributed to the decline of the American landscape of which Vegas is one. They made billions and did not invest in the city which now literally looks like the old cities back east in places.

So after all of these years of being in black what does Vegas have to show for itself besides dirty streets, dangerous neighborhoods, crime, rampant alcoholism, and so on. Where was the investment made for the working people and their children in education beyond the high school level and the attainment of a college education which has become a for-profit industry in this country. While those that create this wealth, that upper 2 percent live like kings, and the poor and middle class struggle and face low pay even within the casinos. There is not future for a country that continues to operate in this fashion where the oligarchs, the rich, literally hoard their wealth not only to the detriment of their local environment but to the nation as a whole.

And this is just Vegas that I am speaking of. It is happening in every city and every town in this country. We are sacrificing the needs of society at large, including its infrastructure, for the parasitic and selfish needs of the rich. You don't have to look very far either. We've seen it take place in the halls of congress last week.

151 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 8:42:01pm

re: #140 ggt

Hey all!

How has the day been?

Wet in the morning, but my family got over to Brookfield Zoo at midday. That's always fun. Even got to see one the Red Kangaroo joeys who's left his mother's pouch.

152 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 8:42:36pm

More on that piece of shit from the LDS church.

WTF? Why is this guy still alive, did no one from his Cult figure him out?

153 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 8:43:12pm

re: #149 laZardo

Speaking of which, skin has been peeling like fuck recently and I apparently have an allergic reaction to the moisturizer. D:

oooh! sorry,

Sure it isn't just the periodic Lizard molting?

154 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 8:44:49pm

re: #151 Dark_Falcon

Wet in the morning, but my family got over to Brookfield Zoo at midday. That's always fun. Even got to see one the Red Kangaroo joeys who's left his mother's pouch.

It was wet in the late afternoon too!

joeys were cute?

155 Varek Raith  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 8:45:50pm

re: #151 Dark_Falcon

Wet in the morning, but my family got over to Brookfield Zoo at midday. That's always fun. Even got to see one the Red Kangaroo joeys who's left his mother's pouch.

Clearly he crawled out to try to eat you.
Clearly.

156 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 8:47:37pm

Any idea if Social Services is going into the Cult and working to help these people heal --i.e. deprogram them.

SEems they need it.

157 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 8:50:38pm

re: #154 ggt

It was wet in the late afternoon too!

joeys were cute?

Yep.

158 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 8:52:14pm
"People have to really understand how these women are raised," she said. "... They really are just property to the community, and especially the men, and they're all about serving the men and fulfilling the men's life, and these women grow up with no rights really and no knowledge of what they should have as far as being a woman, having the rights of what we have here in America."

I"m gonna Scream.

THIS IS 2011!!!!!

159 lostlakehiker  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 8:54:17pm

re: #145 wlewisiii

Ok, past 100, here's a bit from the "You can't make this shit up" category - a man shoots himself in the penis with his fiance's pink pistol.

[Link: www.abc15.com...]

Police said it's not clear how bad the injuries were but called them non-life threatening.


Life-STYLE threatening? Could be. Then again, his lifestyle needs an extreme makeover.

160 Varek Raith  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 8:58:07pm
161 Interesting Times  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 9:03:16pm

re: #158 ggt

I"m gonna Scream.

THIS IS 2011!!!

Sounds like a real version of The Handmaid's Tale. I believe you said you didn't want to read that book (first published - fittingly - in 1984), but I think you should, since the TPGOP is hell-bent on using it as a "how-to" guide.

162 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 9:04:46pm

re: #161 publicityStunted

Sounds like a real version of The Handmaid's Tale. I believe you said you didn't want to read that book (first published - fittingly - in 1984), but I think you should, since the TPGOP is hell-bent on using it as a "how-to" guide.

If I see a used copy at the thrift-store I'll pick it up.

*shiver*

163 Gus  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 9:06:34pm

re: #158 ggt

I"m gonna Scream.

THIS IS 2011!!!

Where is that Saudi Arabia or Pakistan?

164 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 9:07:36pm

re: #163 Gus 802

Where is that Saudi Arabia or Pakistan?

CAN I SCREAM ANY LOUDER?

165 lostlakehiker  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 9:07:50pm

re: #150 Gus 802

My point, “Lostlakehiker” wasn’t about the current state of the economy in Las Vegas. The casinos are posting lower profits simply because it is a reflection of the overall state of the economy. People are traveling less and gambling less. My point is that over the years, Las Vegas, like the majority of cities in this country has failed to invest in it infrastructure. This for a city known for generating wealth numbering in the billions since it’s founding in the 50s.

It is clear that many people amassed large sums of riches through their capitalist venture in Vegas. This includes Donald Trump who you mentioned regardless of the failure of Trump casinos. He literally walked away with the bank through his bankruptcy. He is not the sole person involved in making riches through the predatory casino industry. Tax shelters, tax exemptions and write offs have contributed to the decline of the American landscape of which Vegas is one. They made billions and did not invest in the city which now literally looks like the old cities back east in places.

So after all of these years of being in black what does Vegas have to show for itself besides dirty streets, dangerous neighborhoods, crime, rampant alcoholism, and so on. Where was the investment made for the working people and their children in education beyond the high school level and the attainment of a college education which has become a for-profit industry in this country. While those that create this wealth, that upper 2 percent live like kings, and the poor and middle class struggle and face low pay even within the casinos. There is not future for a country that continues to operate in this fashion where the oligarchs, the rich, literally hoard their wealth not only to the detriment of their local environment but to the nation as a whole.

And this is just Vegas that I am speaking of. It is happening in every city and every town in this country. We are sacrificing the needs of society at large, including its infrastructure, for the parasitic and selfish needs of the rich. You don't have to look very far either. We've seen it take place in the halls of congress last week.

The gambling industry is a mix of entertainment and cynical predation. Those who are gaily indifferent to modest losses, and enjoy the kick of having an outside chance of winning, are entertained. Those who gamble in hope of winning are eaten alive.

From what I've seen, there's a lot of the second group at casinos. But whatever. Let's assume, to be kind to Vegas, that it's purely entertainment. The singers and comedians get a cut. Big-draw names get the biggest cut. Some people are better comics than others, and most of us haven't a prayer of getting paid anything for our crappy delivery and lame jokes. A few are good enough to earn a living at it, and a tiny few are good enough that people willingly pay a lot.

Then there's the cooks, bartenders, croupiers, parking lot attendants etc. It stands to reason that Vegas would be poor, because this work just doesn't command a big premium.

I'm sorry to hear that it's gone from genteel poor to being a dump. But Vegas could never have become an industrial or financial center. It's badly placed for that. What possible investment could have ensured prosperity for Vegas?

If there had been one, some of those greedy capitalists would have made the investment, so as to capture a share of those riches. Vegas is, instead, kind of like a mining town. The suckers have been mined out. It's not a ghost town, not exactly. The vein of suckers is never altogether exhausted.

166 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 9:09:09pm

bbiab

167 austin_blue  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 9:17:03pm

Night all! Back atcha tomorrow.

168 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 9:20:23pm

I"m back,

Is everyone asleep already?

169 laZardo  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 9:20:54pm

re: #168 ggt

Noap.

170 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 9:27:10pm

re: #168 ggt

I"m back,

Is everyone asleep already?

No, I'm here. How's your week looking?

171 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 9:31:08pm

Anyone ever heard of this organization?

ALEC

172 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 9:31:26pm

re: #170 Dark_Falcon

No, I'm here. How's your week looking?

busy, yours?

Haven't checked the weather.

173 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 9:32:21pm

re: #171 ggt

Anyone ever heard of this organization?

ALEC

The reason I asked.

174 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 9:36:33pm

I haven't been on the intertoobs all day, but I can't read any more news. Reality is making me crazy.

got any lightbulb jokes?

175 Kragar  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 9:36:49pm

re: #168 ggt

I"m back,

Is everyone asleep already?

Yes.

176 moderatelyradicalliberal  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 9:40:53pm

re: #128 jaunte

Tea Partiers Cheer the Downgrade of America's Credit Rating


Video at link.

Please God, I know they aren't terribly bright or good at political warfare, but let the Democrats be at least smart enough and pissed enough to turn this into a commercial that gets run every hour on every channel. Please, pretty please!

177 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 9:42:04pm

re: #171 ggt

Anyone ever heard of this organization?

ALEC

Check out the OP^.

178 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 9:44:01pm

re: #177 Slumbering Behemoth

Check out the OP^.

The WHAT?

179 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 9:44:57pm

re: #178 ggt

The original post. The topic of this thread. Check it out. ;)

180 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 9:46:02pm

duh!

181 moderatelyradicalliberal  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 9:48:22pm

re: #155 Varek Raith

Clearly he crawled out to try to eat you.
Clearly.

Kangaroos ain't nothing to fuck with.

Kangaroo don't give a shit!

182 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 9:49:27pm

re: #181 moderatelyradicalliberal

Kangaroos ain't nothing to fuck with.

[Video]Kangaroo don't give a shit!

They go in the ring without boxing gloves!

183 Wozza Matter?  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 9:49:56pm

g'night.

i am heartbroken for my city. These wounds will not soon heal and the scars on the landscape will be felt for years.

184 moderatelyradicalliberal  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 9:50:18pm

re: #182 ggt

They go in the ring without boxing gloves!

They'll mess you up and your little dog too!

185 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 9:50:35pm

re: #132 austin_blue

Lucy Liu....

She was indeed quite fetching in the Kill Bill movies.

186 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 9:50:39pm

re: #184 moderatelyradicalliberal

They'll mess you up and your little dog too!

Not Toto!

I pity the fool . . .

187 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 9:51:31pm

re: #185 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

She was indeed quite fetching in the Kill Bill movies.

Her eyes are kinda crooked tho.

188 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 9:51:33pm

re: #171 ggt

Anyone ever heard of this organization?

ALEC

Yes.

More conservative fat cat blowholes. [Link: www.worsethankoch.com...]

189 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 9:52:01pm

re: #188 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

Yes.

More conservative fat cat blowholes. [Link: www.worsethankoch.com...]

linky no worky

190 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 9:52:29pm

re: #189 ggt

linky no worky

[it's not supposed to...it's a joke]

191 moderatelyradicalliberal  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 9:52:49pm

Good night all!

192 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 9:52:54pm

re: #190 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

[it's not supposed to...it's a joke]

oh

193 The Yankee  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 9:55:30pm

re: #190 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

[it's not supposed to...it's a joke]

By the way did you ever like Sarah Palin?

194 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 9:55:54pm

re: #193 The Yankee

By the way did you ever like Sarah Palin?

No, he just dreams about her.

195 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 9:55:54pm

re: #172 ggt

busy, yours?

Haven't checked the weather.

Still on leave. So far, my new medication is working, but I can't go back to work till I know it is and till I talk with HR there and make sure things are sorted out. That may not happen, just given that my narcaleptic problem didn't look good to one of the bosses. I may end up leaving, though I'll try to stay. But I won't be going back till next week. This week, I'm helping my dad with some overdue projects and working to get HR on board with the ADA accommodations I'll need.

196 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 9:56:58pm

re: #195 Dark_Falcon

Still on leave. So far, my new medication is working, but I can't go back to work till I know it is and till I talk with HR there and make sure things are sorted out. That may not happen, just given that my narcaleptic problem didn't look good to one of the bosses. I may end up leaving, though I'll try to stay. But I won't be going back till next week. This week, I'm helping my dad with some overdue projects and working to get HR on board with the ADA accommodations I'll need.

I missed the health issues. When did you get diagnosed?

197 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 9:57:46pm

Oh, and I checked the weather.

It might rain and it might be sunny the rest of the week.

198 The Yankee  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 9:58:43pm

re: #195 Dark_Falcon

Still on leave. So far, my new medication is working, but I can't go back to work till I know it is and till I talk with HR there and make sure things are sorted out. That may not happen, just given that my narcaleptic problem didn't look good to one of the bosses. I may end up leaving, though I'll try to stay. But I won't be going back till next week. This week, I'm helping my dad with some overdue projects and working to get HR on board with the ADA accommodations I'll need.

Are you taking meds for the burns you got from firing that RPG in that small room to find out the answer to my question earlier? //

199 Daniel Ballard  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 10:04:25pm

The markets continue to stress. Gold just crossed $1700 per ounce in trading.

200 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 10:06:18pm

re: #196 ggt

I missed the health issues. When did you get diagnosed?

It's not confirmed. I found out about the situation at work on Wednesday, and went on leave Thursday. Saw the doc the same day. He got me two weeks of my new prescription. So far its working, and if that holds true I'm going to try to get the situation settled at work. I know most of the managers still hold me in good regard, and I think that once they get the proof I really was sick things will be OK. But that's not certain, so I'm also using this leave to apply to some other jobs. Things are still fluid. But I'm out of the danger I was in and I'm getting the treatment I need.

201 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 10:09:37pm

re: #198 The Yankee

Are you taking meds for the burns you got from firing that RPG in that small room to find out the answer to my question earlier? //

No, because I was constantly on the verge of falling asleep during the day. It was hurting my call rate, making it hard to research new leads, and even causing me to miss my stop on the L. I kept trying to deal with non-medically but nothing worked. I'm really glad I saw my doctor, because if nothing else its gotten my some of my belief in myself back.

202 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 10:10:06pm

re: #200 Dark_Falcon

It's not confirmed. I found out about the situation at work on Wednesday, and went on leave Thursday. Saw the doc the same day. He got me two weeks of my new prescription. So far its working, and if that holds true I'm going to try to get the situation settled at work. I know most of the managers still hold me in good regard, and I think that once they get the proof I really was sick things will be OK. But that's not certain, so I'm also using this leave to apply to some other jobs. Things are still fluid. But I'm out of the danger I was in and I'm getting the treatment I need.

Take care of you!

203 The Yankee  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 10:13:29pm

re: #201 Dark_Falcon

No, because I was constantly on the verge of falling asleep during the day. It was hurting my call rate, making it hard to research new leads, and even causing me to miss my stop on the L. I kept trying to deal with non-medically but nothing worked. I'm really glad I saw my doctor, because if nothing else its gotten my some of my belief in myself back.

I been through similar things. Not the exact same thing but I had a choose between the side affects of medication or just being sick....good luck.

204 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 10:13:37pm

re: #193 The Yankee

By the way did you ever like Sarah Palin?

Looks, and some things about her personality, yes I did.

Her politics? Never.

205 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 10:15:32pm

re: #204 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

Looks, and some things about her personality, yes I did.

Her politics? Never.

Sexy Librarian Fantasy --yes?

206 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 10:18:46pm

re: #195 Dark_Falcon

Still on leave. So far, my new medication is working, but I can't go back to work till I know it is and till I talk with HR there and make sure things are sorted out. That may not happen, just given that my narcaleptic problem didn't look good to one of the bosses. I may end up leaving, though I'll try to stay. But I won't be going back till next week. This week, I'm helping my dad with some overdue projects and working to get HR on board with the ADA accommodations I'll need.

I hope they don't give you any hassle re: ADA. It's been gutted by conservatives from its inception. Other thing to keep in mind is, HR people are labor law dunces.

Document everything, even if they seem nice and accomodating. They see people with disabilities as liabilities and expendable, but they are wrong....a friend of mine has a noticeable disability and works in a department that enforces ADA compliance for a college. Even beyond HR, they are some of the most condescending, unaccomodating people I've ever heard of. Stay strong, DF.

207 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 10:18:49pm

Now if we can just explain the Michelle Bachman attraction?

Stepford Wife on Haladol (to quote OHCRAP)?

I can't imagine that is a pervasive fantasy, but I'm not a guy.

208 laZardo  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 10:19:20pm

re: #205 ggt

Sexy Librarian Fantasy --yes?

There's a game for that.

209 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 10:19:20pm

re: #206 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

I hope they don't give you any hassle re: ADA. It's been gutted by conservatives from its inception. Other thing to keep in mind is, HR people are labor law dunces.

Document everything, even if they seem nice and accomodating. They see people with disabilities as liabilities and expendable, but they are wrong...a friend of mine has a noticeable disability and works in a department that enforces ADA compliance for a college. Even beyond HR, they are some of the most condescending, unaccomodating people I've ever heard of. Stay strong, DF.

And HR works for the Company, not for you.

Regardless of what they say.

210 The Yankee  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 10:20:11pm

re: #204 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

Looks, and some things about her personality, yes I did.

Her politics? Never.

I find her attractive too...As far as her personality goes I am having an hard time trying to figure out what she really is.

211 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 10:23:49pm

re: #205 ggt

Sexy Librarian Fantasy --yes?

N.

Knowing plenty of Pentecostal/Charismatic women a lot like that reality lol.

It's annoying she's gone for the dumb, plastic Callista Gingrich look. She'd be fantastic aging normally.

I recently read where the beauty shop she used to go to now has a reality show of their own. Something is wrong with this situation. [Link: stylenews.peoplestylewatch.com...] lol

212 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 10:24:38pm

re: #209 ggt

And HR works for the Company, not for you.

Regardless of what they say.

Everything out of the mouth of HR is de facto a lie.

CIA applicant rejects.

213 The Yankee  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 10:25:02pm

re: #205 ggt

Sexy Librarian Fantasy --yes?

There is a generation of people that don't know what a librarian is. They think that librarians are the descendants of barbarians.

214 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 10:25:38pm
Bachmann said, “I find it interesting that it was back in the nineteen-seventies that the swine flu broke out then under another Democrat President, Jimmy Carter. And I’m not blaming this on President Obama—I just think it’s an interesting coincidence.”

Read more [Link: www.newyorker.com...]
from the Pages.

215 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 10:26:39pm

re: #211 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

N.

Knowing plenty of Pentecostal/Charismatic women a lot like that reality lol.

It's annoying she's gone for the dumb, plastic Callista Gingrich look. She'd be fantastic aging normally.

I recently read where the beauty shop she used to go to now has a reality show of their own. Something is wrong with this situation. [Link: stylenews.peoplestylewatch.com...] lol

Big Hair in Alaska?

Well at least they seem to have a sense of humor.

216 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 10:27:40pm

re: #214 ggt

Even Alex Jones isn't dumb enough to try and float that one.

217 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 10:28:04pm

re: #210 The Yankee

I find her attractive too...As far as her personality goes I am having an hard time trying to figure out what she really is.

This works for me: [Link: www.thefreedictionary.com...]

Imo, she's a master at it. Can't say I admire it, but she was very effective for keeping the tea party from going off the rails out of the GOP.

218 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 10:28:08pm

re: #206 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

I hope they don't give you any hassle re: ADA. It's been gutted by conservatives from its inception. Other thing to keep in mind is, HR people are labor law dunces.

Document everything, even if they seem nice and accomodating. They see people with disabilities as liabilities and expendable, but they are wrong...a friend of mine has a noticeable disability and works in a department that enforces ADA compliance for a college. Even beyond HR, they are some of the most condescending, unaccomodating people I've ever heard of. Stay strong, DF.

I understand and I'll listen. So far, my contact with HR has not been difficult, but getting any ADA accommodations squared away will show where things stand. The key may come down to good faith, and I know I'll act in that. I think they will, but I'll be ready if they don't.

219 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 10:29:15pm

[Link: gatesofvienna.blogspot.com...]

wow, just one year ago.

220 The Yankee  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 10:30:09pm

re: #216 Slumbering Behemoth

Even Alex Jones isn't dumb enough to try and float that one.

Alex Jones is crazy not stupid there's a difference, yo.

221 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 10:30:12pm

re: #214 ggt

Read more [Link: www.newyorker.com...]
from the Pages.

rotfl

And people fall for this crud. Lol!

222 SpaceJesus  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 10:30:34pm

Of Pandas and Pollution

223 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 10:32:15pm

re: #212 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

Everything out of the mouth of HR is de facto a lie.

CIA applicant rejects.

I'm not going to get slack. I'm going to extend an honest accounting of my illness and show how I'm still an asset to the company. At the same time, though, I'll make sure I'm ready so that if they try something funny they'll wish they didn't.

224 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 10:33:09pm

re: #219 000G

Please don't directly link to that piece of filth blog. It'll get your comment deleted.

225 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 10:33:53pm
Schaeffer died in 1984. I asked his son Frank, who directed the movies—and who has since left the evangelical movement and become a novelist—about the change in tone. He told me that it all had to do with Roe v. Wade, which was decided by the Supreme Court while the film was being made. “Those first episodes are what Francis Schaeffer is doing while he was sitting in Switzerland having nice discussions with people who came through to find Jesus and talk about culture and art,” he said. But then the Roe decision came, and “it wasn’t a theory anymore. Now ‘they’ are killing babies. Then everything started getting unhinged. It wasn’t just that we disagreed with the Supreme Court; it’s that they’re evil. It isn’t just that the federal government may be taking too much power; now they are abusing it. We had been warning that humanism followed to its logical conclusion without Biblical absolutes is going to go into terrible places, and, look, it’s happening right before our very eyes. Once that happens, everything becomes a kind of holy war, and if not an actual conspiracy then

Francis Schaeffer instructed his followers and students at L’Abri that the Bible was not just a book but “the total truth.” He was a major contributor to the school of thought now known as Dominionism, which relies on Genesis 1:26, where man is urged to “have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.” Sara Diamond, who has written several books about evangelical movements in America, has succinctly defined the philosophy that resulted from Schaeffer’s interpretation: “Christians, and Christians alone, are Biblically mandated to occupy all secular institutions until Christ returns.”


Read more [Link: www.newyorker.com...]

226 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 10:34:58pm

re: #216 Slumbering Behemoth

Even Alex Jones isn't dumb enough to try and float that one.

Sounds like she is making small talk at a party....If a man had said that he'd be ignored. She is quoted.

227 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 10:35:41pm

re: #218 Dark_Falcon

I understand and I'll listen. So far, my contact with HR has not been difficult, but getting any ADA accommodations squared away will show where things stand. The key may come down to good faith, and I know I'll act in that. I think they will, but I'll be ready if they don't.

They could. It's totally possible. I'd just say keep reminding them of why it's in everyone's interests to do right by you if it ever comes to that - not that I'm trying to say be threatening, not at all. But this is the fact: your skillset adds something to the company, otherwise they would not have hired you.

228 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 10:36:27pm

re: #224 Dark_Falcon

Please don't directly link to that piece of filth blog. It'll get your comment deleted.

My bad forgot to Google-Cache it: [Link: gatesofvienna.blogspot.com...]

229 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 10:38:07pm

What is the word for the Christian Version of Sharia?

Eidsmoe explained to me how the Coburn School of Law, in the years that Bachmann was there, wove Christianity into the legal curriculum. “Say we’re talking in criminal law, and we get to the subject of the insanity defense,” he said. “Well, Biblically speaking, is there such a thing as insanity and is it a defense for a crime? We might look back to King David when he’s captured by the Philistines and he starts frothing at the mouth, playing crazy and so on.” When Biblical law conflicted with American law, Eidsmoe said, O.R.U. students were generally taught that “the first thing you should try to do is work through legal means and political means to get it changed.”

Read more [Link: www.newyorker.com...]

230 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 10:40:58pm

re: #225 ggt

Read more [Link: www.newyorker.com...]

I was part of that movement, raised in it. So I know their goals and methods very well.

Frank Schaeffer is one, I'm one, to some extent Jamie Bakker is one...that way of life produces a lot of turncoats.

231 Kragar  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 10:41:06pm

re: #222 SpaceJesus

Of Pandas and Pollution

Pandas: The Communist Grizzlies by Bryan Fischer

232 goddamnedfrank  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 10:41:23pm

Damn. Nancy Wake, a woman Eisenhower once estimated was worth five army divisions, has passed away.

233 SpaceJesus  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 10:42:53pm

re: #231 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

why do you think those godless chi-coms love them so much?

234 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 10:44:35pm

re: #229 ggt

What is the word for the Christian Version of Sharia?

Read more [Link: www.newyorker.com...]

I can vouch for this, which is why I have no issues labeling them as Christian shariah.

Coburn was "donated" or taken over by Pat Robertson's CBN University (now Regent U....the assets went to make up the ACLJ.) They also became infamous for funnelling their students via revolving door into the Bush administration.

I still want to know: did Bachmann take classes from Anita Hill, or not! Nobody is saying, lol

235 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 10:47:29pm
Bachmann and her political consultants also know that her inoffensive ode to liberty is necessary because many voters don’t respond well to religious language. The more Bachmann talks about God, the more she is likely to be asked about Schaeffer, Eidsmoe, Noebel, and some of the other exotic influences on her thinking. The success of her campaign will rest partly on her ability to keep these influences, which she has talked about for years, out of the public discussion. As I started getting deeper into a conversation with her about Schaeffer, she abruptly ended the interview. She said she had to leave for an appearance on “Hannity” but would try to set up another time to talk. I didn’t hear from her again. Her press secretary later told me that Bachmann “wasn’t comfortable with the line of questions, and that’s why there wasn’t a follow-up conversation.”

Read more [Link: www.newyorker.com...]

236 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 10:49:48pm

re: #234 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

I can vouch for this, which is why I have no issues labeling them as Christian shariah.

Coburn was "donated" or taken over by Pat Robertson's CBN University (now Regent U...the assets went to make up the ACLJ.) They also became infamous for funnelling their students via revolving door into the Bush administration.

I still want to know: did Bachmann take classes from Anita Hill, or not! Nobody is saying, lol

This feels so like the aftermath of 9/11 when American's felt like they were blindsided by the Islamic Whackos --when in reality, we weren't paying attention.

WTF, have these Christian Whackos been doing under my nose?

237 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 10:51:29pm

re: #227 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

They could. It's totally possible. I'd just say keep reminding them of why it's in everyone's interests to do right by you if it ever comes to that - not that I'm trying to say be threatening, not at all. But this is the fact: your skillset adds something to the company, otherwise they would not have hired you.

That is exactly my thoughts as well. We'll see how things play out. But thank you for your words of support and advice. We will still disagree often, but you're one of the good ones OCSP.

238 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 10:51:49pm

re: #231 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Pandas: The Communist Grizzlies by Bryan Fischer

How many Communist Grizzlys does it take to screw in a lightbulb?

239 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 10:54:43pm

re: #238 ggt

How many Communist Grizzlys does it take to screw in a lightbulb?

Only one, but it has to wait in line all day to buy the bulb.

240 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 10:54:49pm

re: #220 The Yankee

Alex Jones is crazy not stupid there's a difference, yo.

I don't think he's either. I think he's a cynical exploiter who knows there's a profitable market for conspiracy mongering, and very little competition in his particular niche.

241 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 10:55:24pm

Off to sleep,

Have a great morning all!

DF--get better!

242 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 10:55:26pm

re: #235 ggt

Read more [Link: www.newyorker.com...]

I'm not sure about this article on Bachmann.

David Barton is also an Oral Roberts grad, and thanks to Glenn Beck is even more of a major influence on the whackjob right than Bachmann. Deposed self-loathing bigot Ted Haggard is also ORU.

Bob McDonnell, who has been governor of Virginia for two years, is a Regent University grad, as is Cynthia Dunbar of the infamous TX Board of Ed.

People might also want to look at Oral Roberts U's more recent history, getting back in the spotlight in 2007 when they were caught trying to influence local Tulsa GOP elections, which is illegal. The Tulsa World covered the whole thing. [Link: www.tulsaworld.com...]

I think Bachmann is an easy target, but ignoring these others is a mistake.

243 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 10:56:47pm

re: #238 ggt

How many Communist Grizzlys does it take to screw in a lightbulb?

None. They make the donkeys do it, because some animals are more equal than others.

244 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 10:58:17pm

re: #239 Dark_Falcon

Only one, but it has to wait in line all day to buy the bulb.

rotfl

245 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 11:00:38pm

re: #237 Dark_Falcon

That is exactly my thoughts as well. We'll see how things play out. But thank you for your words of support and advice. We will still disagree often, but you're one of the good ones OCSP.

Hey well, you just might have to provide the same support for me some day. Thx for the kind words, too.

246 engineer cat  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 11:06:32pm

Global stock markets fall after U.S. downgrade

great

thank you, tea party

247 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 11:09:04pm

re: #228 000G

My bad forgot to Google-Cache it: [Link: gatesofvienna.blogspot.com...]

I don't think it's necessary to cache inside frontpage comments as it serves no useful function - it doesn't increase PageRank and it doesn't prevent click counter increases. It makes sense to cache when writing a page (which is crawled by google), and a page is exactly what you should do on this, IMHO

248 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 11:15:15pm

re: #234 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

I can vouch for this, which is why I have no issues labeling them as Christian shariah.

Did a post on this earlier today, though with a different focus - thought of making it a page, but maybe next time. Cynthia McKinney, Herman Cain, and the Christian-Shariah, States Rights Crazy Train.

249 fire at night  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 11:19:47pm

I used to despise ThinkPinko ™, but more and more they show themselves as pretty close to the truth of the matter at exposing a political agenda on the Right.

It is funny how your personal opinions can change on matters within a few short years after seeing the writing on the wall.

250 laZardo  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 11:22:11pm

re: #248 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

I believe that's what is known as the Moronic Convergence.

251 Kragar  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 11:25:39pm

re: #249 fire at night


It is funny how your personal opinions can change on matters within a few short years after seeing the writing on the wall.

I can think of a few people who would go nuts if you suggest such a thing.

252 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 11:27:06pm

re: #249 fire at night

I've never much cared for them either, but truth doesn't stop being truth when you don't much care for the source.

253 goddamnedfrank  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 11:28:12pm

re: #232 goddamnedfrank

How badass was Nancy Wake? She once killed an SS soldier with her bare hands. She worked her way up to #1 on the Gestapo's most wanted list. Think about that for a second, out of everyone the Nazi's were trying to kill or capture during WWII, Nancy made the top slot. After she finally escaped through the Pyrenees to Spain on her sixth attempt she went to Britain, trained as an SOE operative, then parachuted back into Nazi occupied France to organize the Maquis for D-day. If there was an award for allied MVP she'd have won it seven years in a row.

254 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 11:31:24pm

re: #253 goddamnedfrank

Rest In Peace then, Nancy. Thank you for your gallant defense of freedom. It will not be forgotten.

255 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 11:31:36pm

re: #247 Sergey Romanov

a page is exactly what you should do on this, IMHO

Don't really have the time. Would also feel like plagiarizing Justin Raimondo, who has an article on this up on his website that I found through Google News. Can't be bothered with that right now, mea culpa.

256 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 11:33:24pm

re: #255 000G

Don't really have the time. Would also feel like plagiarizing Justin Raimondo, who has an article on this up on his website that I found through Google News. Can't be bothered with that right now, mea culpa.

Yeah, found it later. Too bad it's kook Raimondo. It's written nicely.

257 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 11:34:14pm

re: #255 000G

Perhaps you can send the link to Oyvind?

258 laZardo  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 11:34:43pm

re: #255 000G

From the first one...

A better bipartisan fit for Obama, they say, is Sen. Chuck Hagel (R-Neb.), who brings out what they like about Gates – his ability to deal with Russia, Iran and Syria – without the direct link to Bush’s policies.

Whatever happened to him?

259 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 11:35:49pm

re: #247 Sergey Romanov

I don't think it's necessary to cache inside frontpage comments as it serves no useful function - it doesn't increase PageRank and it doesn't prevent click counter increases. It makes sense to cache when writing a page (which is crawled by google), and a page is exactly what you should do on this, IMHO

It's more the principal of the thing. GoV is a filthy blog that is inciting hate and violence. Using a Google cache keeps a direct like to that filth off our forum.

260 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 11:37:14pm

re: #256 Sergey Romanov

Yeah, found it later. Too bad it's kook Raimondo. It's written nicely.

Yes, but you can't use kooks as a source, because it taints you by association. Sometimes we can't use a source, simply because its otherwise too there to use. Wages of making sure you're seen as sane.

261 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 11:37:26pm

re: #259 Dark_Falcon

It's more the principal of the thing. GoV is a filthy blog that is inciting hate and violence. Using a Google cache keeps a direct like to that filth off our forum.

Some sort of a strange ritual? :)

262 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 11:39:10pm

Anyhoo, webcite can be used.

263 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 11:40:19pm

re: #260 Dark_Falcon

Yes, but you can't use kooks as a source, because it taints you by association. Sometimes we can't use a source, simply because its otherwise too there to use. Wages of making sure you're seen as sane.

Wouldn't dream of using JR as credible.

264 laZardo  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 11:41:09pm

re: #253 goddamnedfrank

Died at 98.

Because the good don't always die young.

265 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 11:42:02pm

re: #263 Sergey Romanov

Wouldn't dream of using JR as credible.

Glad to hear that. Though I did not doubt you.

266 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 11:42:20pm

re: #263 Sergey Romanov

Wouldn't dream of using JR as credible.

But damn, it's well-written. I hope Oyvind writes his own analysis so it can be used.

267 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 11:47:20pm

re: #256 Sergey Romanov

Yeah, found it later. Too bad it's kook Raimondo. It's written nicely.

It also links to the LGF harpy generator.

re: #257 Sergey Romanov

Perhaps you can send the link to Oyvind?

I am hoping Oyvind will find it through here or elsewhere.

268 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 11:47:49pm

re: #266 Sergey Romanov

But damn, it's well-written. I hope Oyvind writes his own analysis so it can be used.

Even if the crazy has written well, he remains crazy.

269 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 11:48:42pm

re: #266 Sergey Romanov

But damn, it's well-written. I hope Oyvind writes his own analysis so it can be used.

You also don't need to use him as a source on anything. He basically just commented on that one public GoV article, mainly.

270 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 11:52:55pm

re: #250 laZardo

I believe that's what is known as the Moronic Convergence.

One of many, yeah.

271 fire at night  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 11:58:43pm

re: #251 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

re: #252 Slumbering Behemoth

True.

"Closing one's ears won't shut Truth's mouth."

It might be just growing up, but previous perceptions of things can always change. In 08' I would have sang a completely different tune. I won't attribute any particular blog for my change of heart or e-pinion for what I felt was right at the time, but I will attribute some blogs for waking me up to what was really going on for the time being that I willfully ignored during that time frame.

There is always an agenda to be had. I was an AGW denier for some period, but after lurking for a bit, I still found a lot of discrepancies in the data for the damage done. From that point with a link the Big Lizardo posted in order to acquaint myself with for the laymen, not as well versed in the science, I had a change of heart. It made sense, after many articles and links found through that site listed in the favorites section. Things just made a little more sense I guess.

As long as someone has a balanced perspective in a representational matter, with the science as their backing. I always willing to reconsider a matter that might be different from my previous views. It was delivered well with the data, and was one of the few things on the Internet that helped me change my way of thinking.

272 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 12:07:09am

re: #268 Dark_Falcon

Even if the crazy has written well, he remains crazy.

Even a broken clock etc.

Recently:

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]
[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

273 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 12:21:06am

re: #249 fire at night

ThinkProgress still has a nasty antizionist streak. In this "exposé" on the last AIPAC conference that Obama spoke at, they basically accused all attending Jews of being "Israel-firsters".

274 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 12:22:18am

New Pam:

Medea Benjamin, Jeffrey Goldberg, Noam Chomsky, Norman Finklestein et al - a vicious cabal of evil soulless monsters who wield their Jewish names like the dull knives jihadists use to behead the infidel.
275 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 12:23:31am

re: #273 000G

ThinkProgress still has a nasty antizionist streak. In this "exposé" on the last AIPAC conference that Obama spoke at, they basically accused all attending Jews of being "Israel-firsters".

Previously. I also noticed they scrubbed the (really nasty) comments from that AIPAC story.

276 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 12:29:13am

re: #274 Sergey Romanov

New Pam:

Medea Benjamin, Jeffrey Goldberg, Noam Chomsky, Norman Finklestein et al - a vicious cabal of evil soulless monsters who wield their Jewish names like the dull knives jihadists use to behead the infidel.

That's kind of disgusting, considering that having a Jewish-sounding name is usually what gets you into hot water with antisemites everywhere and at all times. So what's Pam's suggestion for her fellow Jews she disagrees with (and usually then slanders as being "jewicidal jews")? Write under a more muslish sounding pseudonym?

277 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 12:30:19am

re: #274 Sergey Romanov

New Pam:

Soulless. Nice.

She should pay attention to what her whackodoodle Christian cohorts who use her own Jewishness as a tool think about her implanted butt.

Does she really think they overlook her ethnicity and think of her as one of them?

Rotfl! This is why we laugh at conservative minority tokens.

278 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 12:31:32am

re: #276 000G

That's kind of disgusting, considering that having a Jewish-sounding name is usually what gets you into hot water with antisemites everywhere and at all times. So what's Pam's suggestion for her fellow Jews she disagrees with (and usually then slanders as being "jewicidal jews")? Write under a more muslish sounding pseudonym?

Well, Jeffrey Goldberg is already Abu Tsuris /

279 laZardo  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 12:32:20am

fuck this im goin to bed

nighty C:

280 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 12:33:50am

re: #278 Sergey Romanov

That's kind of disgusting, considering that having a Jewish-sounding name is usually what gets you into hot water with antisemites everywhere and at all times. So what's Pam's suggestion for her fellow Jews she disagrees with (and usually then slanders as being "jewicidal jews")? Write under a more muslish sounding pseudonym?

Well, Jeffrey Goldberg is already Abu Tsuris /

I don't know why the above didn't blockquote.

281 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 12:46:56am

Via Goldberg comes this interview with Tzipi Livni:

[Link: www.theatlantic.com...]

282 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 12:52:16am

re: #274 Sergey Romanov

it's like refrigerator poetry for drunk bloggers

283 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 12:54:13am

re: #282 WindUpBird

it's like refrigerator poetry for drunk bloggers

Medea Benjamin, Jeffrey Goldberg,
Noam Chomsky, Norman Finklestein et al -
A vicious cabal of evil soulless monsters
Who wield their Jewish names like the dull knives
Jihadists use to behead the infidel.

284 AK-47%  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 1:20:49am

One can oppose Israeli policy withoug bein anti-semitic.

One can support Israeli policy without being a Zionist.

Well, at least not in some areas of the blogoshpere...

285 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 1:33:45am

[Link: www.dailykos.com...]


Anonymous Has Hacked Syria's Ministry of Defense! Must See Activism in Progress

286 AK-47%  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 1:43:56am

re: #115 lostlakehiker

In a pinch, you can just drink it. The kidneys will have to work harder the second time around, but if thirst is literally a life or death situation, it's drinkable.

Unlike fecal matter, urine is generally sterile. There. See, another benefit of global warming. People have reason to learn new things. ///

We had a grey water recycling system installed in our house. It takes the water from the sinks, showers and bathtubs (not the toilets or kitchen sink, though) and recycles it for flushing toilets, washing clothes and the outside garden hose.

287 freetoken  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 1:54:20am

re: #284 ralphieboy

One can oppose Israeli policy withoug bein anti-semitic.

One can support Israeli policy without being a Zionist.

Shhhh....

288 AK-47%  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 1:59:04am

re: #287 freetoken

Shhh...

Yes, I know. Nuance is a an elitist attempt (along with spelling and grammar) to get us away from slapping snappy slogans on crudely painted signs and holding them up at rallies...

289 CuriousLurker  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 2:04:43am

re: #287 freetoken

Shhh...

There are so many -ists and -isms when it comes to politics & religion. I've been here for almost a year and a half now and I'm only just beginning to be able to sort them into lists/definitions that I can wrap my head around.

It doesn't help that people keep moving the goalposts around. I feel like Charlie Brown sometimes...

290 AK-47%  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 2:08:58am

There are those who insist that Islam and Islamism are identical, just as there are those who use Zionism and Judaism interchangeably.

291 Cannadian Club Akbar  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 2:14:44am

Morning honcos.

292 CuriousLurker  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 2:15:31am

It's all so... *sigh*

All the narratives, the talking points...it's like instead of having conversations people are having concurrent dueling monologues. Everyone talking, no one listening.

293 CuriousLurker  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 2:15:57am

Gotta run. BBL

294 freetoken  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 2:16:13am
295 AK-47%  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 2:22:16am

re: #292 CuriousLurker

It's all so... *sigh*

All the narratives, the talking points...it's like instead of having conversations people are having concurrent dueling monologues. Everyone talking, no one listening.

and it has spilled over into politics to the point that we are growing dysfunctional. And if you listen to the carefully nuanced wording of the S&P people, it is this very breakdown of dialogue at the highest levels of government that has led to US credit being downgraded.

297 researchok  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 2:52:41am

Morning, all

298 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 2:56:33am

Weirdness: [Link: analysis.no.net...]

299 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 2:57:14am

re: #298 000G

[Link: u.no.net...]

300 Cannadian Club Akbar  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 2:59:16am

Moscow and Tehran signed a US$1 billion contract to start building Bushehr in 1995. Its 1999 completion date has been repeatedly pushed back.

OK. First, a gubment program that went over budget.
Second, the bolded portion belongs in the "No Shit" file.

[Link: www.huffingtonpost.com...]

301 freetoken  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 3:09:54am

SV:

302 Cannadian Club Akbar  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 3:53:07am

These pretzels are making me thirsty.

303 RogueOne  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 3:55:37am

re: #302 Cannadian Club Akbar

These pretzels are making me thirsty.

deja vu

304 Cannadian Club Akbar  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 4:14:49am

Sullivan said that during breath tests, Bachmeier registered .334 and .315, so he was taken to an area hospital to be medically cleared before being booked into the Levy County jail. At the hospital, Sullivan said a blood test showed Bachmeier’s blood alcohol level was .390.

To know the rest of the story, read on...
[Link: www.gainesville.com...]

305 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 4:23:38am

re: #304 Cannadian Club Akbar

Jeez. Isn't that BAC level getting into alcohol poisoning territory? They may have very well done that dude a big favor.

306 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 4:23:45am

Good morning Lizards from (always) sunny Philadelphia.

It appears I missed the July heatwave here (20+ days over 90 F) since it was only 82 F at 7am...

And it appears I got my vacation days mixed up since I'm here at work and my Outlook Calendar says I'm off today. Oops.

307 Cannadian Club Akbar  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 4:25:48am

re: #305 Slumbering Behemoth

Jeez. Isn't that BAC level getting into alcohol poisoning territory? They may have very well done that dude a big favor.

I've heard at .40 you should be dead. But there was some elected official in Colorado years ago (probably a local official or mayor) that hit a .43.

308 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 4:27:56am

re: #307 Cannadian Club Akbar

We should at least admire the effort it takes to get a point four.

309 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 4:30:21am

Freaky.

Montauk Monster's cousin?

310 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 4:31:17am

re: #307 Cannadian Club Akbar

Damn. I like to drink, but you gotta be fighting some crazy personal 'demons' to get to that point.

I hope folk like that get the help they need.

311 Cannadian Club Akbar  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 4:37:04am

re: #310 Slumbering Behemoth

I was in traffic court for a ticket once and a guy that was there not only blew a .29, but also got his car up on 2 wheels before being pulled. The judge asked if he thought he had a drinking problem. Dude said no.

312 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 4:43:03am

re: #311 Cannadian Club Akbar

I was in traffic court for a ticket once and a guy that was there not only blew a .29, but also got his car up on 2 wheels before being pulled. The judge asked if he thought he had a drinking problem. Dude said no.

"I drink. I fall down. No problem."

313 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 4:45:53am

re: #311 Cannadian Club Akbar

It's entirely possible he doesn't, and just fucked up real bad either due to enthusiasm or sorrow.

It can sometimes be hard to tell when someone has a genuine problem (addiction), or has simply taken a good/bad time too far.

314 Cannadian Club Akbar  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 4:47:35am

re: #313 Slumbering Behemoth

It's entirely possible he doesn't, and just fucked up real bad either due to enthusiasm or sorrow.

It can sometimes be hard to tell when someone has a genuine problem (addiction), or has simply taken a good/bad time too far.

Actually, most people couldn't even stand up at .20. It takes some conditioning to hit high numbers.

315 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 4:48:19am

re: #312 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

"I drink. I fall down. No problem."

I drink. I lay down. Still can't sleep. Problem.
:)

316 Cannadian Club Akbar  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 4:48:23am

re: #312 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

"I drink. I fall down. I eat $10 worth of Taco Bell.No problem."

Fixed.:)

317 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 4:49:11am

re: #314 Cannadian Club Akbar

Ah, good point.

318 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 4:50:23am
"If the US Government was a family, they would be making $58,000 a year, they spend $75,000 a year, & are $327,000 in credit card debt. They are currently proposing BIG spending cuts to reduce their spending to $72,000 a year. These are the actual proportions of the federal budget & debt, reduced to a level that we can understand." - Dave Ramsey


Now, I saw this on Facebook and I agree wholeheartedly, with the following exception. It is not like credit card debt, since most credit card debt carries a very high interest rate. It's more like a mortgage with a low variable interest rate.

Now, Obdi's probably lurking out there somewhere. What am I missing? Please give it a lib spin around the block for me.

319 Sheila Broflovski  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 4:55:22am

re: #309 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Freaky.

Montauk Monster's cousin?

Just another decomposed dog.

320 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 4:58:18am

re: #316 Cannadian Club Akbar

Jebus! I certainly ain't nothing close to being an under-eater, but I doubt I could eat that much Taco Hell in one sitting. Shit, I don't think I could lift ten dollars worth of Taco Hell.

/that shit is cheaper than dirt.

321 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 4:59:41am

yo

322 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 5:00:08am

re: #320 Slumbering Behemoth

/that shit is cheaper than dirt.

And for good reason.

'Nite all.

323 Obdicut  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 5:09:07am

re: #318 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

The government resembles a hybrid of a business and a household. I mean, really, it resembles a government; comparisons to anything else are always going to fail. Anyone making such a comparison is distracting us from the actual subject.

The government is the public system that underpins our private one. The government is, at its most basic, the laws of this land and the enforcement of them. It also is a tool to promote our general welfare, to engage in activities that benefit our society as a whole.

To that end, it spends money on projects that are beneficial to our society. Everything from meat inspection (hey-o) to mail delivery to basic science research, things which are not provided for by the private market and inherently can't be, are done by the government.

Many of these things give us back a greater return than they cost. Science research, public health clinics, unemployment, food stamps, all of these programs benefit the economy and the nation, either by supporting private industry, which does little basic science research on its own, or keeping the velocity of money high.

Remember, there's never a point where someone ceases to be the responsibility of the government. If someone is dead broke, absolutely without money, and unemployed, then it's going to wind up in the governments' lap somehow. They might get evicted, in which case the courts, the sherrif's office, etc. gets involved, all of which costs a bundle. They might resort to crime, in which case, again, the government gets involved. They may be able to scrimp and save and get by on almost nothing, but not be able to afford to pay for their kids to go to college interviews, and so the money that the government put into the education of those kids gets wasted.

Government is always the last resort, and to that end, it works to prevent things from getting there. Instead of evicting the poor on a regular basis, we have Section 8 housing, because it's hard for someone to find work if they don't have a place to stay. This isn't to give them a freebie, it's because no matter what, they're going to cost us money. Giving them a break on housing, helping to pay their rent is the least costly and best solution.

So, all of this means that in a recession, like now, the need for all of this is more. The government is a AAA security, no matter what S&P or anyone else says; the market demonstrates that. Everyone wants to buy our bonds. The government is what can provide surety and velocity to the market when the private market can't, or won't.

The problem is not the debt, or the deficit. The problem is that we keep our high levels of spending going even when we don't need to, even when the economy is roaring along at gangbusters. That's when it's idiotic to be getting deeper into debt; when the market is working at high efficiency.

The time for the Tea Party to have made their claims, the time for the GOP to squawk about the debt ceiling, was during times of prosperity. Like, say, the period before the crash.

Of course, then we were engaged in a huge orgy of spending on the Iraq war.

To put a final analogy in: the government is a lot more like a company than a household. And a company tries its goddamn best to never cut services, never lose market share. It tries to cut costs by becoming more efficient, learning how to do things cheaper-- it doesn't just stop doing them.

Those who propose cutting the 'entitlement' programs can never explain what happens next. So we have a ton more poor people with even less money, a ton of seniors who can't afford their health care. What happens? How are they not still a drain on the economy? How are they not more of a drain than if we went about helping them in a more efficient and sane way?

324 Vermicelli  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 5:14:40am

teaching high school science to rednecks is fun!
they've broken it down to a simple analogy and it goes
like this: "if you put an ice cube in a cup of water and it melts,
the water level doesn't rise! still got the same amount of water."
so in their eyes, the entire global warming thing and the consequences of it like water levels rising are a scam meant to scare them.
I usually proceed in explaining to them that thier analogy is flawed and a more accurate one would be if you put a snowball on top of a glass of water and as it melts so does the water level rise. They like the ice cube in the water analogy better :(

325 Cannadian Club Akbar  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 5:14:48am

Wow. I applied for a job and got an email from them. Apparently, they use a debit card as their preferred form of payment (I've seen this before) and all I need to do is fill out the form provided and I'll be on my way to a prosper and wonderful future!! I'll give my SSN twice!!!
///

326 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 5:19:18am

Morning all!

How is it going for you?

327 Cannadian Club Akbar  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 5:19:46am

Alrighty. I'm going for a walk while it is still only 87 degrees. bbiab...

328 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 5:22:13am
329 Obdicut  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 5:24:01am

re: #324 Vermicelli

You're exactly right. Humans have an addiction to bad analogies. I think part of what you're pointing out is also that the deniers tend to nitpick at every bad thing coming from AGW, as though by mitigating one or another they'll actually remove the harm.

So, they'll claim the sea levels (which can already be observed to be rising) won't rise because of that dumb analogy. They'll claim that the growing area for food will actually increase, because, well, they really hope it would (ignoring that to shift our farming to new areas and plant different crops would require an enormous infrastructure investment.) They'll claim that CO2 is good plant food (all plants have evolved to take advantage of the current concentration of gases in atmosphere. Any change to that takes away from their viability.)

Etc. etc. etc. When you prove them wrong on one thing, they just switch to another, using the same stupid tactics.

330 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 5:24:24am

re: #323 Obdicut

Thanks for your answer.

You know I love ya, right? But, your answer illustrates why the tea party folks have gained so much traction. Us Murikans is stoopid.

It takes a lib 12 paragraphs to answer a one paragraph statement. Who are you? Fuckin' Michener?
/

331 Obdicut  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 5:26:07am

re: #330 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Well, the one sentence answer is "Comparing something as vastly different as a government and a household makes as much sense as comparing home self-defense with attacking the Nazis in WWII. The analogy is terrible and you should feel bad for making it."

332 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 5:28:49am

re: #331 Obdicut

Heh.

So. You had to go all Godwin...
/

333 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 5:30:45am

Well, it's been short and sweet.

Have a great day all!

334 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 5:39:30am

re: #329 Obdicut

You're exactly right. Humans have an addiction to bad analogies. I think part of what you're pointing out is also that the deniers tend to nitpick at every bad thing coming from AGW, as though by mitigating one or another they'll actually remove the harm.

So, they'll claim the sea levels (which can already be observed to be rising) won't rise because of that dumb analogy. They'll claim that the growing area for food will actually increase, because, well, they really hope it would (ignoring that to shift our farming to new areas and plant different crops would require an enormous infrastructure investment.) They'll claim that CO2 is good plant food (all plants have evolved to take advantage of the current concentration of gases in atmosphere. Any change to that takes away from their viability.)

Etc. etc. etc. When you prove them wrong on one thing, they just switch to another, using the same stupid tactics.

So they're hoping for the Chinese to gene-engineer a CO2 concentrating strain of bamboo and the accompanying modified giant panda to eat the bamboo and crap coal? (We can name it Nibbler)

335 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 5:39:44am

Someone asked James Michener to write an introduction to a book they had written. Michener said, "Sure. How many words do you want." The other author said, "Less than 300 words."

Michener replied, "I can't even say 'How are you' in less than three hundred words.

336 Obdicut  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 5:40:43am

re: #334 oaktree

So they're hoping for the Chinese to gene-engineer a CO2 concentrating strain of bamboo and the accompanying modified giant panda to eat the bamboo and crap coal? (We can name it Nibbler)

Yep. And then ignoring that in that scenario, the US becomes a 2nd-rate economy and China is the dominant superpower.

Whoever solves the energy/sustainability engineering question is going to be the dominant economy of the next century.

People like the Koch's and the GOP are working really hard to make sure that that country is not the US.

337 Vermicelli  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 5:41:16am

re: #329 Obdicut
here's the reason:
they're taught to not give a crap about anyone but themselves and the shared feeling that they could out survive anyone on this planet and have fun doin' it!

338 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 5:45:31am

re: #336 Obdicut

Yep. And then ignoring that in that scenario, the US becomes a 2nd-rate economy and China is the dominant superpower.

Whoever solves the energy/sustainability engineering question is going to be the dominant economy of the next century.

People like the Koch's and the GOP are working really hard to make sure that that country is not the US.

Which is why I find that commercial showing the Chinese doing a presentation on how we destroyed ourselves so ironic.

339 Sheila Broflovski  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 5:46:09am

re: #337 Vermicelli

here's the reason:
they're taught to not give a crap about anyone but themselves and the shared feeling that they could out survive anyone on this planet and have fun doin' it!

Fuck you, I have ammo and gold!

340 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 5:47:15am

re: #339 Alouette

Fuck you, I have ammo and gold!

You need silver to stop the were-mudskippers however...

341 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 5:47:29am

re: #339 Alouette

... and golden ammo.

342 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 5:50:57am

Went outside to take the garbage up to the street for pick-up. Walked face-first into a spider web.

I started yelling, "Help meeee" like "The Fly"... but no one was around to see. So I stood alone in my driveway laughing at my hysterical joke.

Still picking spider web out of my hair.

343 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 5:54:45am

re: #342 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Went outside to take the garbage up to the street for pick-up. Walked face-first into a spider web.

I started yelling, "Help meee" like "The Fly"... but no one was around to see. So I stood alone in my driveway laughing at my hysterical joke.

Still picking spider web out of my hair.

Maybe that was a radioactive web and you're the new Spidey now?

344 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 5:55:49am

re: #343 Sergey Romanov

Nah, can't. White guy over here.
/

345 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 5:57:22am

re: #344 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Nah, can't. White guy over here.
/

OK, so Venom it is. /

346 CuriousLurker  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 5:58:18am

re: #339 Alouette

OMG, I'm glad you're here!

Is this even permissible by halacha?? It's really freaking me out.

Dead woman's ova harvested after court okays family request

For the first time in Israel, eggs have been harvested from a dead woman who donated her organs.

Chen Aida Ayash, a 17-year-old resident of the Sharon region, was hit by a car while crossing a street in Kfar Sava about 10 days ago. She died last Wednesday, after a week in Kfar Sava's Meir Hospital, and her family decided to donate her organs.
Hen Aida Ayish

The organs were transplanted into four recipients last Thursday. At the same time, her family obtained an order from the Kfar Sava Magistrate's Court to allow her eggs to be harvested and frozen.

[...]

More at Haaretz...

347 Sheila Broflovski  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 5:58:57am

And I have pie!

348 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 5:59:30am

re: #347 Alouette

And I have pie!

*drools*

349 CuriousLurker  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 6:00:40am

*hands Sergey a napkin*

350 Sheila Broflovski  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 6:00:53am

re: #346 CuriousLurker

OMG, I'm glad you're here!

Is this even permissible by halacha?? It's really freaking me out.

Don't see why not. I will have to ask Zedushka, he's the Talmudist and halachic expert.

How's your fast going? Mine is tomorrow.

"Why do they call it a fast when the time goes by so slowly?"--my daughter

351 Sheila Broflovski  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 6:01:19am

re: #348 Sergey Romanov

*drools*

All your gold for a slice of pie!

352 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 6:02:27am

Ha!

353 CuriousLurker  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 6:02:48am

re: #350 Alouette

Don't see why not. I will have to ask Zedushka, he's the Talmudist and halachic expert.

How's your fast going? Mine is tomorrow.

"Why do they call it a fast when the time goes by so slowly?"--my daughter

Thanks, I'd be really interested to know the answer.

My fast is going okay, better this week. Thanks for asking & good luck with yours. ;)

Your daughter is right. LOL

354 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 6:03:00am

re: #351 Alouette

All your gold for a slice of pie!

It's a deal. I have 0 oz. gold, therefore I'm giving you all my gold (0 oz.) and you give me the slice!

355 Sheila Broflovski  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 6:04:40am

My GE Spacemaker over-the-range microwave crapped out on Friday. I have two other microwaves in the kitchen, but the Spacemaker also included a clock, timer, range fan and cooktop lighting fixture which I use more than the actual microwave.

I looked on line and it seems that this GE product is Teh Suck. I bought it in 2005 so is probably out of warranty.

356 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 6:05:09am

re: #350 Alouette

I've gone for a day without eating, but was very late before I realized that I had not eaten a thing. Had forgotten.

But; in a "Fast"? I'd go frakin' nuts.

357 Sheila Broflovski  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 6:05:11am

re: #354 Sergey Romanov

It's a deal. I have 0 oz. gold, therefore I'm giving you all my gold (0 oz.) and you give me the slice!


0 gold get you 0 pie.

358 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 6:05:54am

re: #357 Alouette

0 gold get you 0 pie.

Hey! That wasn't in the contract! /

359 CuriousLurker  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 6:05:59am

re: #183 wozzablog

g'night.

i am heartbroken for my city. These wounds will not soon heal and the scars on the landscape will be felt for years.

{{{wozza}}}

360 Sheila Broflovski  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 6:06:21am

re: #356 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I've gone for a day without eating, but was very late before I realized that I had not eaten a thing. Had forgotten.

But; in a "Fast"? I'd go frakin' nuts.

Jews have only 6 fast days throughout the year, and only 2 are "full 24-hr" fasts (Yom Kippur and Tisha B'Av, which is tomorrow), the others are dawn to dusk.

361 CuriousLurker  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 6:06:57am

Grrr, gotta get back to work. Laters...

362 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 6:08:34am

re: #355 Alouette

They're pretty cheap. Therefore, they're not really serviceable anymore.

If you can wait until this Sunday night? Go to Sears. 6-9 everything is an extra ten percent off. "Friends and Family" night. Tell them "The fat one" sent you.

You should be able to get one for about 250.00

363 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 6:09:27am

Heh, turns out C&H had a Spidey comic a few days ago:

Image: Nobody-likes-Spiderman-at-metal-shows.png

364 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 6:10:18am

re: #330 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Thanks for your answer.

You know I love ya, right? But, your answer illustrates why the tea party folks have gained so much traction. Us Murikans is stoopid.

It takes a lib 12 paragraphs to answer a one paragraph statement. Who are you? Fuckin' Michener?
/

And this one's for you:

Image: comicsquareroooooot.png

365 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 6:11:52am

re: #364 Sergey Romanov

I don't get it.
/

366 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 6:12:06am

re: #364 Sergey Romanov

And this one's for you:

Image: comicsquarerooot.png

Heh, LGF engine mangles the URL (too many ooooooooos):

[Link: bit.ly...]

367 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 6:13:20am

re: #360 Alouette

If I were in a room with a bunch of folks who were fasting and the kitchen was locked... I could make it.

368 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 6:13:45am

re: #364 Sergey Romanov

The requested content cannot be loaded.
Please try again later.

369 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 6:14:23am

re: #366 Sergey Romanov

Ha!

370 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 6:14:38am

re: #368 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

The requested content cannot be loaded.
Please try again later.

Do at they say! ///

I don't know, it works for me. Try [Link: bit.ly...] again.

371 S'latch  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 6:26:03am

The full title was actually "The Many Benefits Of Atmospheric CO2 Enrichment and the Under-Appreciated Joy of Smelling Other People's Flatulence."

372 Cannadian Club Akbar  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 6:37:01am

Dow down 195. 4 minutes in.

373 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 6:41:03am

re: #372 Cannadian Club Akbar

I can't watch!

*peeks through fingers*

374 Cannadian Club Akbar  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 6:41:39am

re: #373 Fat Bastard Vegetarian


I can't watch!

*peeks through fingers*

I don't bother. That thing will drive me to drink.

375 The Yankee  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 6:42:42am

re: #372 Cannadian Club Akbar

Dow down 195. 4 minutes in.

I blame the Canadians for this, them and their health care system.

376 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 6:43:59am

re: #331 Obdicut

Well, the one sentence answer is "Comparing something as vastly different as a government and a household makes as much sense as comparing home self-defense with attacking the Nazis in WWII. The analogy is terrible and you should feel bad for making it."

QTF

377 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 6:44:11am

re: #374 Cannadian Club Akbar

I heard that Slim (the Mexican rich guy) lost 7 billion the other day.

I pity folks with a few hundred grand in 401Ks a whole lot more. This is going to be a rocky ride.

378 Cannadian Club Akbar  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 6:44:17am

re: #375 The Yankee

I blame the Canadians for this, them and their health care system.

re: #375 The Yankee

I blame the Canadians for this, them and their health care system.

The country or the hockey team?
/

379 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 6:44:39am

re: #376 Dark_Falcon

QTF

"quoted the fuck"?

380 Cannadian Club Akbar  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 6:45:22am

re: #379 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

"quoted the fuck"?

It's Spanglish.

381 The Yankee  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 6:47:33am

re: #378 Cannadian Club Akbar

re: #375 The Yankee

The country or the hockey team?
/

Good point, the economy seems to be better when Winnipeg doesn't have a NHL level hockey team.
That is just an observation though, I will leave the conclusion up to you people.

382 Killgore Trout  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 6:48:05am

-226

383 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 6:48:42am

Koch Brother's Facebook Information page...

Hates: Jews, The Arabs, The Blacks, The Yellows, The French, The Latins, The New York Times, The George Clooney, The Hillary, The Obama, The Whole Foods, The Prius, The Dogs in Purses, The Oprah, The Ellen, The Condoms, and Sunsets on the Beach.

(from "Don't Mess With the Zohan")

384 The Yankee  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 6:48:57am

re: #377 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I heard that Slim (the Mexican rich guy) lost 7 billion the other day.

I pity folks with a few hundred grand in 401Ks a whole lot more. This is going to be a rocky ride.

The funny thing about losing money in the Stock Market, I may be wrong on this, but sometimes when people loose money they don't loose it to other people. It just disappears into the ether right?

385 Killgore Trout  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 6:50:24am

re: #384 The Yankee

The funny thing about losing money in the Stock Market, I may be wrong on this, but sometimes when people loose money they don't loose it to other people. It just disappears into the ether right?

I think so. Te wealth simply evaporates from the economy.

386 garhighway  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 6:51:48am

re: #97 lostlakehiker

It doesn't take a physics sermon. It does take persistence and patience. It also takes anecdotes.

Has this summer been a bitch, or what? Tornadoes killing hundreds at a single pop, drought destroying the crops and the grazing in Texas, temperatures over 100 day after day, week after week.

What about the famine in Somalia? It can't have been this bad all along, or there wouldn't have been anybody there in the first place to now starve.

Didja hear about the floods in Pakistan? The forest fires darkening the skies of Moscow last summer, with temperatures pushing 100? Right, Moscow, the place where the Nazi juggernaut froze to death?

See the haboob rolling over Albuquerque?

Take a look at these before and after pictures of Glacier National Park. Nothing much left of 'em, is there?

There's an endless mass of such material. AGW is hitting our lives right now. Sure, from time to time there's some cold snap and Dime Box TX sets a new record low for the day. But far more record highs are being posted nowadays than record lows.

Conversions are not to be accomplished in a day, or a week. Or in a year, perhaps. An arrogant tone is not an asset, even though you really do know you're right. And some folk will never come around.

And the lung cancer-smoking tie in is real. Some of the exact same corporations have moved from shilling for the cigarette companies, to shilling for the Koch line. "Doubt is their product" is the title of a book citing chapter and verse on this.

It's probably best to grant that increased CO2 does in fact have numerous benefits. There's the CO2 fertilization effect. [If the atmosphere contained no CO2 at all, nothing much could grow on land.] Irkutsk, Russia, will have a milder climate. Greenland's growing season will be extended, and the retreat of the ice caps will open new land to cultivation.

You see where I'm going with this? What's good for the few is bad, very bad, for the many. There's more people in Miami, or New Orleans, than in Greenland. The retreat of the icecap has consequences. Water now stored as ice atop the landmass will go into the oceans and raise sea level. Even a 3 foot rise over the century, and that would be just a down payment on what we're in store for if we don't get a handle on world consumption of fossil fuels, just 3 feet is no small thing.

Airports, roads, levees? Not built for a new and higher sea level. It'll be expensive to replace or rebuild them.

What about our crops? What about our beef supply? A year from now, the price of beef will be much higher, because so many ranchers had to sell off their herds. No grass, no beef. All things being equal, temperature-wise, CO2 is a bit of a help to plant growth. But all things are not held equal. The price of that CO2 is higher temperatures, and the price is too damned high.

We don't have to convince everyone. The very old are mostly set in their ways, but they won't be setting policy a decade from now. This is a long, slow haul, and while there's no time to waste, there's time to make the case.

The Koch brothers can't stuff the genie of science, nor the daily weather news, back in the bottle. Eventually, we'll win this debate.


Two thoughts:

1> The people who are concerned about AGW are generally loathe to pile on the anecdotes, because if they are being careful about the science they know that it is difficult to attribute any particular weather event to AGW. Those opposed feel free to play up the blizzards and such because they have no respect for the science anyway.

2> I saw that the clown behind the conference used to be the in charge of environmental affairs for Peabody Energy. That really is a Tobacco Institute-like gig. I wonder if he got to wear a lab coat to work?

387 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 6:52:00am

re: #384 The Yankee

The funny thing about losing money in the Stock Market, I may be wrong on this, but sometimes when people loose money they don't loose it to other people. It just disappears into the ether right?

It's all electronic nickels until you cash it out and compare to what you paid to get the security. And then compare that amount to the value change of the money due to inflation and other factors. And, if you're real picky, what would have happened if you had invested in something else (or even nothing) instead.

It's complex gambling on the economy - that's all.

388 Cannadian Club Akbar  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 6:52:11am

re: #383 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

The only thing I hate more then people who want world peace is people who love long walks on the beach. Really?

389 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 6:53:35am

re: #388 Cannadian Club Akbar

The only thing I hate more then people who want world peace is people who love long walks on the beach. Really?

Sand-anistas?

390 garhighway  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 6:56:46am

re: #387 oaktree

It's all electronic nickels until you cash it out and compare to what you paid to get the security. And then compare that amount to the value change of the money due to inflation and other factors. And, if you're real picky, what would have happened if you had invested in something else (or even nothing) instead.

It's complex gambling on the economy - that's all.

But it is real in very serious ways. A financial institution (bank, insurance company, etc...) lives or dies on how much equity it has: assets over liabilities. When their asset values sharply decline, the institution's equity drops very quickly.

If the institution is using leverage to boost yields (and have therefore borrowed to make investments), then the shrinking of asset values can cause margin calls, which cause asset selling, which causes further asset value declines. The next thing you know, you have banks, insurance companies, hedge funds and the like that are insolvent: they have more liabilities than assets. That has real life consequences well beyond paper losses.

391 S'latch  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 6:56:52am

re: #385 Killgore Trout

I think so. Te wealth simply evaporates from the economy.

I think it would be more accurate to say that in many cases, the wealth didn't even exist in reality in the first place. It only existed on paper and the illusion of wealth has been exposed. The Real Estate Bubble is a good example.

392 lawhawk  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 6:57:13am

Greets and saluts from the NYC metro area. The DJIA is down over 200 points this morning, but Treasuries are actually showing serious strength. It's gotten to the point where even Warren Buffet has said that the S&P downgrade was wrong. S&P's spoke loudly and clearly when it downgraded US debt, but the Treasury market on Monday didn't appear to be listening; it was rallying. Buffet says the US Rating Still AAA, No Matter What S&P Says

"If anything, it may change my opinion on S&P," the legendary investor said.

Buffett is a big shareholder in Moody's [MCO Loading... () ], rival to S&P.

And Buffett is putting his money where his mouth is. As of June 30, Buffett's Berkshire Hathaway [BRKA 106450.00 -850.00 (-0.79%) ] had $47 billion in cash and equivalents. Buffett tells me that at least $40 billion of that is in U.S. Treasury bills. Not only that, Buffett says almost all of his own personal holdings in cash and equivalents are in T-bills as well.

"I wouldn't dream of putting it anywhere else," says Buffett, adding that at Berkshire, the only reason he's sold U.S. Treasurys in the past is to buy stocks or make acquisitions. And Buffett says Berkshire is still buying T-bills, even though yields have fallen so low. "If I have to buy (Treasurys) at a zero percent yield [cnbc explains] , I will," he says. "I don't like it, but we'll do it."

Well, considering that he's a major investor in S&P's competitor Moody's, you have to take some of this with a grain of salt.

Frankly, I find the focus on the downgrade to be misleading. After all, the same credit watchers completely botched the CRA and real estate meltdown - claiming that all kinds of investments were safe when they were anything but. It's quite possible that they've been overstating the strength of the various paper across sectors for years - and that they could have downgraded the US at any number of points in the past couple of years. That Moodys hasn't has as much to do with politics as the S&P decision to downgrade.

Still, it's all relative as far as risk is concerned. If you're an institutional investor, where are you going to put your money in a safe haven? The US is still a better risk that pretty much everyone else. China may be squawking loudly about things, but they've got their own mess and aren't nearly as transparent on their financial situation as the US. That's the position that Buffet is really iterating - that with all the problems with the US market and financial situation, it's still a better risk than everyone else. Despite the brinksmanship over the debt ceiling, it got done and the US still paid its bills. It was an ugly mess, but the ceiling was advanced. It will continue to be advanced despite the know-nothings in the Tea Party who are trying to disrupt all manner of governance simply by saying no to anything and everything.

393 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 6:57:34am

re: #379 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

"quoted the fuck"?

QFT

Oops.

394 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 6:58:47am

re: #388 Cannadian Club Akbar

Wife: Honey? You want to take a long walk on the beach?
FBV: Is there a blow-job or something in it for me?
Wife: No.
FBV: No thanks.

395 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 6:59:22am

re: #381 The Yankee

Good point, the economy seems to be better when Winnipeg doesn't have a NHL level hockey team.
That is just an observation though, I will leave the conclusion up to you people.

Eh, send the team to Winnipeg or keep them in Atlanta, the Blackhawks will trounce them just the same. Go Hawks!

396 garhighway  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 6:59:39am

re: #392 lawhawk

I loves me my acronyms, but what's the CRA?

397 Cannadian Club Akbar  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 7:00:15am

re: #394 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Wife: Honey? You want to take a long walk on the beach?
FBV: Is there a blow-job or something in it for me?
Wife: No. But maybe for someone else.
FBV: No thanks.

Well, that's just wrong...

398 Achilles Tang  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 7:00:49am

The TGOP got 98% of what they wanted.

So I argue that the Dems are only responsible for the remaining 2%, constituting preventing the full default that that would have given the TGOP 100%.

399 Killgore Trout  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 7:01:34am

re: #392 lawhawk

I agree that it's mostly symbolic but losing our AAA rating is an embarrassment. I am concerned about the lesson Republicans have learned from this. They consider it a huge victory and they're going to do it again. This has only encouraged them. They are playing a very dangerous and destructive game.

400 garhighway  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 7:02:56am

re: #399 Killgore Trout

I agree that it's mostly symbolic but losing our AAA rating is an embarrassment. I am concerned about the lesson Republicans have learned from this. They consider it a huge victory and they're going to do it again. This has only encouraged them. They are playing a very dangerous and destructive game.

We'll see: there has been one massive asset sell off (with another one underway today) and a downgrade following that deal. Those things would make it hard to take a victory lap.

401 Achilles Tang  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 7:04:34am

re: #399 Killgore Trout

I agree that it's mostly symbolic but losing our AAA rating is an embarrassment. I am concerned about the lesson Republicans have learned from this. They consider it a huge victory and they're going to do it again. This has only encouraged them. They are playing a very dangerous and destructive game.

It's not symbolic because as I hear it the rating is based on the impossibility of correcting the deficit at any time without a revenue factor, and the TGOP shows no inclination to do anything except play social engineering and politics.

In other words, S&P sees things getting worse.

402 S'latch  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 7:04:46am

re: #399 Killgore Trout

From the perspective of the GOP, it was a victory. And there is no question that future debt ceiling increases will be accompanied by demands. The pattern is set.

403 garhighway  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 7:05:36am

There's a nice piece in the NYT this morning by Nate Silver looking at the lack of correlation between S & P ratings and real-life outcomes. Warning: it's long.

[Link: fivethirtyeight.blogs.nytimes.com...]

Sample:

Five years ago, if you were an investor looking for guidance on which country’s debt was the safest to invest in, Standard & Poor’s ratings wouldn’t have done much to help you navigate the headwinds of the financial crisis.

Investors now think that Ireland has more than a 40 percent chance of a default or debt restructuring at some point in the next five years. The country is penalized with double-digit interest rates when it wants to borrow money. But in 2006, Standard & Poor’s had Ireland’s debt rated with its top-of-the-line, AAA rating. It didn’t downgrade Ireland until March 30, 2009, long after its financial problems had become obvious, and the price to buy insurance on its debt had increased tenfold from a year earlier.

Spain, which markets now posit has about a three-in-ten chance of default or restructuring, also had a AAA rating, which it maintained until January 2009. Today it still has a AA rating, one notch higher than Japan’s.

Iceland, the tiny country with the oversized banking sector that came perilously close to national bankruptcy, was in 2006 rated AA+, the same rating the United States now has.

Greece, which now appears more likely than not to endure at least a technical default, had debt rated A, lower than most European countries but a reasonably good grade by world standards. It too was not downgraded until January 2009, and its bonds were still rated as investment-grade until March 2010.

404 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 7:05:50am

re: #390 garhighway

But it is real in very serious ways. A financial institution (bank, insurance company, etc...) lives or dies on how much equity it has: assets over liabilities. When their asset values sharply decline, the institution's equity drops very quickly.

If the institution is using leverage to boost yields (and have therefore borrowed to make investments), then the shrinking of asset values can cause margin calls, which cause asset selling, which causes further asset value declines. The next thing you know, you have banks, insurance companies, hedge funds and the like that are insolvent: they have more liabilities than assets. That has real life consequences well beyond paper losses.

Quite true. It's the electronic equivalent of the old bank run phenomena where a bank did not have the funds on hand to cover a sudden run of cash withdrawls. Which led to banks collapsing, financial panics, etc. Which eventually led to (who would have guessed) governmental regulation about banks keeping reserves, bank insurance backed by the federal government, etc. etc.

Which is why a lot of the gold standard, kill the Fed, and other simplify government regulation rhetoric is laughable up to the point that it appears lawmakers are taking it seriously. We have been down those roads before (19th century, Great Depression) and there are reasons we do not want to go down them again.

If the modern GOP and Tea Party has any truly major fault it is their willful disregard and ignorance of history. If you don't value knowledge and experience beyond that which supports your will-o-wisp grasp of the past you deserve to go over the cliff. I just wish you wouldn't drag the rest of us with you.

405 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 7:06:43am

re: #402 Lawrence Schmerel

From the perspective of the GOP, it was a victory. And there is no question that future debt ceiling increases will be accompanied by demands. The pattern is set.

That shit's only fun while you're the one making the demands. Payback, will, as usual, be a bitch.

406 lawhawk  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 7:08:56am

re: #403 garhighway

Silver is eviscerating the S&P ratings through his statistical analysis. He's pointing out the ways that the S&P has overstated the stability of paper issued by countries around the world, and has been out of step all along the way.

However, I'd love to see whether he'd do a similar analysis of Moody's - I doubt it's any better.

Fact is that all of the credit agencies are doing a poor job of assessing risk.

407 S'latch  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 7:09:47am

re: #405 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

So, if the situation gets reversed, and Democrats make demands accompanying a debt ceiling increase, will we call them hypocrites and demand that they raise the debt ceiling without any conditions?

408 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 7:09:59am

re: #403 garhighway

So, we're screwed?

409 garhighway  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 7:12:20am

re: #406 lawhawk

Silver is eviscerating the S&P ratings through his statistical analysis. He's pointing out the ways that the S&P has overstated the stability of paper issued by countries around the world, and has been out of step all along the way.

However, I'd love to see whether he'd do a similar analysis of Moody's - I doubt it's any better.

Fact is that all of the credit agencies are doing a poor job of assessing risk.

Agree.

In The Big Short (a great book!) Michael Lewis did a fine job explaining how the people at the rating agencies are consistently outgunned in dealing with their bank counterparts, and how they had little enthusiasm for the task anyway. Those institutions are fundamentally conflicted. I tend to think the government ought to get out of the business of designating them as semi-official scorekeepers.

410 garhighway  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 7:13:23am

re: #408 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

So, we're screwed?

We may be, or way not be, but you won't be able to tell from asking S & P.

That's my read of Silver's piece.

411 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 7:15:40am

And we laughed at the people who bought gold.

412 Gus  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 7:18:29am

Choo choo!

11,217.33
-227.28 (-1.99%)

413 lawhawk  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 7:18:57am

re: #410 garhighway

Yes, Silver pretty much eviscerates the S&P's methodologies and judgment on risk. Not only does he complain about their refusal to give full level downgrades when justified, but that it tends to follow rather than lead. They finally got around to issuing downgrades after it was all too apparent that the crisis in places like Ireland were underway.

I also agree with Silver that it's likely that the S&P should have downgraded the US a while back; but that raises questions why the other agencies didn't make that decision. That goes back to politics.

There was a good article over the weekend that discussed the oversized power that these agencies have in their ratings - the ratings have been incorporated by law and regulations into so much financial activity that to cleave them out of the process is all but impossible. Yet, we're stuck with their approach however incorrect, misguided, lacking or incomplete it may be.

414 Cannadian Club Akbar  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 7:19:10am

re: #411 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

And we laughed at the people who bought gold.

Gold companies are ebil.
[Link: www.politico.com...]

415 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 7:20:52am

re: #407 Lawrence Schmerel

So, if the situation gets reversed, and Democrats make demands accompanying a debt ceiling increase, will we call them hypocrites and demand that they raise the debt ceiling without any conditions?

I guess it will depend on whether this particular increase is being viewed as a one-off aberration (in which an attempt to repeat it is hypocritical) or a seachange in which the new way of doing business in Congress regarding the debt ceiling is to use it as a hostage in order to cut deals.

416 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 7:21:02am

re: #413 lawhawk

Yes, Silver pretty much eviscerates the S&P's methodologies and judgment on risk. Not only does he complain about their refusal to give full level downgrades when justified, but that it tends to follow rather than lead. They finally got around to issuing downgrades after it was all too apparent that the crisis in places like Ireland were underway.

I also agree with Silver that it's likely that the S&P should have downgraded the US a while back; but that raises questions why the other agencies didn't make that decision. That goes back to politics.

There was a good article over the weekend that discussed the oversized power that these agencies have in their ratings - the ratings have been incorporated by law and regulations into so much financial activity that to cleave them out of the process is all but impossible. Yet, we're stuck with their approach however incorrect, misguided, lacking or incomplete it may be.

Then can they be induced to reform?

417 Gus  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 7:22:01am

re: #414 Cannadian Club Akbar

Gold companies are ebil.
[Link: www.politico.com...]

Which gold companies? The gold "companies" that Glenn Beck was/is peddling are dirt bags. People are paying above market value for gold. The time to invest in gold and expect to make a "killing" passed a long time ago. So investing in gold right now isn't anything but for people that already have a lot of money.

418 Gus  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 7:22:35am

Choo choo!

11,153.53
-291.08 (-2.54%)

419 lawhawk  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 7:23:22am

S&P now downgraded Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac.

S&P also lowered Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac's senior unsecured debt to AA-plus from AAA.
420 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 7:23:38am

re: #418 Gus 802

421 Gus  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 7:23:44am
422 Cannadian Club Akbar  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 7:23:57am

re: #417 Gus 802

Which gold companies? The gold "companies" that Glenn Beck was/is peddling are dirt bags. People are paying above market value for gold. The time to invest in gold and expect to make a "killing" passed a long time ago. So investing in gold right now isn't anything but for people that already have a lot of money.

They charged a fee for getting you product. And I wouldn't go near gold right now.

423 iossarian  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 7:24:13am

re: #409 garhighway

Agree.

In The Big Short (a great book!) Michael Lewis did a fine job explaining how the people at the rating agencies are consistently outgunned in dealing with their bank counterparts, and how they had little enthusiasm for the task anyway. Those institutions are fundamentally conflicted. I tend to think the government ought to get out of the business of designating them as semi-official scorekeepers.

Well, there's still a need for some kind of dispassionate analysis, especially of more obscure financial products (e.g., smaller company stock/debt) which fewer people have the time and inclination to analyze.

It's a bit like the higher education ratings problem: everyone bitches about the US News rankings (and similar in other parts of the world, e.g. the Times UK and global lists) but ultimately there's a demand for such information, and so organizations arise to fill that demand.

Now, if there was a state funded but independent NPR/BBC-type entity doing the ratings, that would be an interesting development even if it didn't entirely eliminate the bias problem.

424 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 7:24:13am

re: #414 Cannadian Club Akbar

Gold companies are ebil.
[Link: www.politico.com...]

They aren't very good, but any arguments against them will now have to be built from scratch, since the man previously making those arguments got caught using Twitter to send pictures of his penis.

425 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 7:24:23am

re: #419 lawhawk

What in the hell is AA-?

426 Gus  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 7:24:46am

re: #422 Cannadian Club Akbar

They charged a fee for getting you product. And I wouldn't go near gold right now.

A rather big fee. Better off looking for gold. "Look! GOLD!" ;)

427 Cannadian Club Akbar  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 7:26:10am

re: #426 Gus 802

A rather big fee. Better off looking for gold. "Look! GOLD!" ;)

I made money and had no problem getting/selling it.

428 lawhawk  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 7:26:13am

re: #416 Dark_Falcon

In a word - no.

You would think that their major failures from the past couple of years would have led to internal reforms on how they do business and improved their analysis and ratings system, but it hasn't. S&P simply aren't getting the job done and they benefit from an oligarchy in the credit ratings business. They get to make these ratings because of who they are and their history in the business - not because they're getting it right these days.

429 garhighway  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 7:26:42am

re: #423 iossarian

Well, there's still a need for some kind of dispassionate analysis, especially of more obscure financial products (e.g., smaller company stock/debt) which fewer people have the time and inclination to analyze.

It's a bit like the higher education ratings problem: everyone bitches about the US News rankings (and similar in other parts of the world, e.g. the Times UK and global lists) but ultimately there's a demand for such information, and so organizations arise to fill that demand.

Now, if there was a state funded but independent NPR/BBC-type entity doing the ratings, that would be an interesting development even if it didn't entirely eliminate the bias problem.

The basic problem is that the real consumers of the information (bond buyers) won't pay for it. So instead the issuers pay, and there lies the conflict of interest. (I assume that the rating agencies throw in their work on sovereign debt for free, because I don't think Treasury pays them for it.)

We'd be better off blowing that system up and taking away the official status the raters currently have.

430 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 7:26:51am

re: #426 Gus 802

All the gold in California;
is in a bank in the middle of Beverly Hills,
In somebody else's name.

431 Gus  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 7:26:55am

Wasn't Warren Buffet saying recently that the recession is over? Good times are ahead. Happy days are here again. He's probably been saying this for two years now. Buffet is just an opinionated man whose opinion is well... not very accurate. I think it's just the media that's infatuated with him or something.

432 lawhawk  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 7:27:43am

re: #425 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Top level credit is AAA. There are gradations all the way down to D (junk bond). Dropping the credit from AAA to AA- is like if you had a credit score of 800, it's now 770. Still pretty good, but you wont get the best rates.

433 Gus  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 7:28:25am

re: #427 Cannadian Club Akbar

I made money and had no problem getting/selling it.

I have no doubt.

434 iossarian  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 7:28:31am

re: #429 garhighway

The basic problem is that the real consumers of the information (bond buyers) won't pay for it. So instead the issuers pay, and there lies the conflict of interest. (I assume that the rating agencies throw in their work on sovereign debt for free, because I don't think Treasury pays them for it.)

Right, so instead you institute a micro-tax on financial transactions and use the proceeds to fund an independent ratings agency.

TAX! SOCIALISM! AAAARRRRGHGHGHGH!!!

435 S'latch  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 7:29:50am

re: #415 oaktree

Time will tell whether debt-ceiling-increase-demands have become the norm. I have little doubt that most or even all future debt-ceiling-increases will be accompanied by demands.

Democrats will most likely demand tax increases with future debt-ceiling-increases. So, if the situation gets reversed, and Democrats make demands to increase taxes accompanying a debt ceiling increase, would they be hypocrites, or is it only fair play now that the effectiveness of such demands appears to have been established?

436 Cannadian Club Akbar  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 7:30:01am

re: #433 Gus 802

I have no doubt.

And either way, FBV's point was about having gold now. I bought at $400 and would LOVE to have been able to hold on until now.:(

437 iossarian  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 7:30:38am

re: #432 lawhawk

Top level credit is AAA. There are gradations all the way down to D (junk bond). Dropping the credit from AAA to AA- is like if you had a credit score of 800, it's now 770. Still pretty good, but you wont get the best rates.

Not to quibble, but don't junk bonds start under BBB- (had to check wikipedia as I thought it was higher than D but didn't know exactly where)?

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

438 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 7:31:54am

re: #434 iossarian

Right, so instead you institute a micro-tax on financial transactions and use the proceeds to fund an independent ratings agency.

TAX! SOCIALISM! AAARRRGHGHGHGH!!!

That'll never fly. The banks will yell, consumer groups will scream, and to top it off it would be a tax increase. No Republican could vote for it, not even Scott Brown.

439 Gus  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 7:32:07am

re: #436 Cannadian Club Akbar

And either way, FBV's point was about having gold now. I bought at $400 and would LOVE to have been able to hold on until now.:(

Me too. I mean that would have been a great thing to do back in the day when it was under $400. Yippee! Oh well. Spare some change for something to eat drink?

440 Gus  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 7:32:52am

Choo choooooooooo!

11,103.58
-341.03 (-2.98%)

441 Gus  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 7:33:28am

And lower...

11,084.28
-360.33 (-3.15%)

442 Cannadian Club Akbar  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 7:33:36am

re: #440 Gus 802

Choo chooo!

11,103.58
-341.03 (-2.98%)

Holy crap!!

443 garhighway  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 7:33:53am

re: #438 Dark_Falcon

That'll never fly. The banks will yell, consumer groups will scream, and to top it off it would be a tax increase. No Republican could vote for it, not even Scott Brown.

Banks screaming matters.

Consumer groups, not so much. (Not that they would: I am not so sure about that.)

But the fact that the same guys that blew up our economy can still speak with authority in Congress and pretty much get what they want says all you need to know about how politics works in the USA.

444 lawhawk  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 7:33:58am

re: #437 iossarian

I gave the full range - but yes - the junk bond ratings begin at BBB- and below. Anything above that is considered investment grade. If you've got a D rating, you're looking at bankruptcy (you aren't paying your bills).

445 Gus  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 7:34:32am

re: #442 Cannadian Club Akbar

Holy crap!!

And now...

11,077.28
-367.33 (-3.21%)

[Link: www.google.com...]

446 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 7:34:33am

re: #406 lawhawk

Silver is eviscerating the S&P ratings through his statistical analysis. He's pointing out the ways that the S&P has overstated the stability of paper issued by countries around the world, and has been out of step all along the way.

However, I'd love to see whether he'd do a similar analysis of Moody's - I doubt it's any better.

Fact is that all of the credit agencies are doing a poor job of assessing risk.

That's because all they are doing is assessing future prospects by analysing past performances. It's like forecasting next week's weather from last week's thermometer readings.

447 iossarian  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 7:34:58am

re: #438 Dark_Falcon

That'll never fly. The banks will yell, consumer groups will scream, and to top it off it would be a tax increase. No Republican could vote for it, not even Scott Brown.

I don't think consumer groups would mind all that much, would they?

I mean, they're generally in favor of stricter regulation of financial organizations, which is why anti-regulation types hate Elizabeth Warren.

Agreed on the other points though.

448 Gus  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 7:34:58am

Back into the 10,000 range we go.

449 garhighway  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 7:35:43am

re: #448 Gus 802

Back into the 10,000 range we go.

Tea Party Downgrade, Tea Party Crash.

450 Cannadian Club Akbar  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 7:36:31am

re: #448 Gus 802

Back into the 10,000 range we go.

Trading stops (takes a break) at -1100?

451 garhighway  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 7:37:17am

re: #450 Cannadian Club Akbar

Trading stops (takes a break) at -1100?

If we need the circuit breakers we are in deep shit.

452 lawhawk  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 7:37:26am

re: #450 Cannadian Club Akbar

Trading curbs for the quarter begin at 1,200 point decline (10%). The circuit breakers on the NASDAQ are similar. We're not there yet...

453 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 7:37:28am

re: #443 garhighway

Banks screaming matters.

Consumer groups, not so much. (Not that they would: I am not so sure about that.)

But the fact that the same guys that blew up our economy can still speak with authority in Congress and pretty much get what they want says all you need to know about how politics works in the USA.

It's less that than the fact that tacking on a entirely new tax has been anathema to the GOP since Ronald Reagan. The Republican Party is pretty unified on this point, from Scott Brown to Allen West. And as long as the GOP has 41 or more senators any such tax will be filibustered.

454 Gus  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 7:37:39am

Gulp...

11,064.79
-379.82 (-3.32%)

455 Gus  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 7:38:06am

11,060.29
-384.32 (-3.36%)

456 Gus  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 7:38:29am

Now back "up". OK, I'll stop posting those.

457 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 7:38:43am

re: #454 Gus 802

Cool it with that, would you please?

458 Gus  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 7:38:59am

Fluctuating below -350 more or less.

459 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 7:39:02am

re: #456 Gus 802

Now back "up". OK, I'll stop posting those.

Thank you.

460 garhighway  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 7:39:18am

re: #453 Dark_Falcon

It's less that than the fact that tacking on a entirely new tax has been anathema to the GOP since Ronald Reagan. The Republican Party is pretty unified on this point, from Scott Brown to Allen West. And as long as the GOP has 41 or more senators any such tax will be filibustered.

I have no doubt that you are right. Despite the merits of the argument, despite the consequences for the greater good, the GOP will always fight a tax.

461 Gus  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 7:39:35am

re: #459 Dark_Falcon

Thank you.

:P

//

462 lawhawk  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 7:41:34am

re: #446 000G

But they aren't even doing a good job retrospectively as Silver pointed out with the S&P analysis. They so badly lagged the real world indicators that it should show just how out of tune the agency is with the credit markets it is seeking to rate.

463 ProGunLiberal  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 7:47:22am

re: #462 lawhawk

Not to mention the fact that S&P received info their calculations were off, and they still went forward.

464 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 7:47:37am

re: #462 lawhawk

But they aren't even doing a good job retrospectively as Silver pointed out with the S&P analysis. They so badly lagged the real world indicators that it should show just how out of tune the agency is with the credit markets it is seeking to rate.

My point was that rating agencies are not what they pretend to be: They pretend to predict future performances when all they are doing is projections from data on past performances. If you actually wanted to have an idea where things are headed, you would need to know what was going on right now. Contacts in key industries on various levels of production, independent inspectors checking out and assessing the situation on the ground as well as on the books and doing cross-referencing, etc. Basically investigations in the scope of what banks do before they lend big sums in order to find out what the collateral is like.

465 ProGunLiberal  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 7:48:45am

re: #464 000G

Which S&P, Moody's, and Fitch(?) don't do.

466 Gus  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 7:49:56am

The economy and the financial markets are like a Rube Goldberg contraption.

467 lostlakehiker  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 7:52:21am

re: #318 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Now, I saw this on Facebook and I agree wholeheartedly, with the following exception. It is not like credit card debt, since most credit card debt carries a very high interest rate. It's more like a mortgage with a low variable interest rate.

Now, Obdi's probably lurking out there somewhere. What am I missing? Please give it a lib spin around the block for me.

Look at it from the perspective of the nation as a whole. Governmental spending is just part of the picture, and the government is just part of the nation. Income of 58K goes to income of about 300K. Spending goes to about 315K, a lot of it on necessities. The budget crunch remains, but some of those necessities aren't outright necessities and could be trimmed.

If matters were a good parallel to your sources'

///income 58K, outlay 75K, debt 300+K///

family analogy, the debt would be beyond possibility of repayment and all the rating agencies would have long ago downgraded it to F--- or what have you.

468 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 7:52:37am

re: #463 ProLifeLiberal

Not to mention the fact that S&P received info their calculations were off, and they still went forward.

Libya info for you:

Preparing For The War After The War

Rafale Proves Itself

I was right about some of the de Gaulle's Rafale's being deployed to land bases.

469 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 7:57:20am

On a brighter note? It's Always Sunny In Philadelphia's new season starts September 15th. The new commercials are hysterical.

470 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 8:02:03am

This next one is something we're building. Maybe we can use the first one to give Gaddafi a proper send-off:

Biggest Bunker Buster Ever Is In Production

After nearly a decade of development, the U.S. Air Force has ordered eight MOP (massive ordnance penetrator) GBU-57A/B bunker buster bombs. These 14 ton weapons cost $3.5 million each. In the last few years, several B-2 bombers have been equipped to carry these weapons (two bombs per B-2). This was apparently meant to send a message to Iran and North Korea. There were no known targets for such a weapon in Iraq or Afghanistan, but there are plenty of such targets in Iran and North Korea. Moreover, even were there deep bunkers in Iraq or Afghanistan, you didn't need a stealth bomber to deliver a MOP. The enemy in those countries have no way of detecting a high flying B-52, much less a stealthy B-2.

But Iran and North Korea do have radars, and a B-2 could slip past those radars and take out the air defense system command bunkers, or any other targets buried deep. The 6.2 meter (20.5 foot) long MOP has a thick steel cap, and can penetrate up to 7.9-61 meters (26-200 feet) of concrete (depending on degree of hardness) or up to 61 meters of rocky earth, before exploding.

471 McSpiff  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 8:03:56am

re: #470 Dark_Falcon

This next one is something we're building. Maybe we can use the first one to give Gaddafi a proper send-off:

Biggest Bunker Buster Ever Is In Production

That's one hell of a weapons system. Closest thing we'll see to the Rod of God anytime soon I imagine.

472 ProGunLiberal  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 8:07:29am

re: #468 Dark_Falcon

Saw that coming.

I remember seeing Wikileaks saying that the Rafale was bad.

Who's laughing now?

473 Gus  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 8:10:35am

War drums.

474 Cannadian Club Akbar  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 8:13:03am

re: #470 Dark_Falcon

I thought we already had a 30K lb. guided bomb?

476 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 8:23:31am

re: #474 Cannadian Club Akbar

I thought we already had a 30K lb. guided bomb?

We've been working on them, but this isn't a prototype. These bombs are production units, ready to go operational. Once they're built, no deep bunker will be safe from the US Air Force. It will give us increased options against Iran and the Norks. Iran especially, since these bombs can easily destroy the hardened control centers for those missile silos they bragged about two months ago.

477 S'latch  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 8:27:38am

re: #466 Gus 802

The economy and the financial markets are like a Rube Goldberg contraption.

except that Rube Goldberg contraptions are a lot less complicated and have more predictable chains of cause and effect.

478 McSpiff  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 8:28:21am

re: #476 Dark_Falcon

We've been working on them, but this isn't a prototype. These bombs are production units, ready to go operational. Once they're built, no deep bunker will be safe from the US Air Force. It will give us increased options against Iran and the Norks. Iran especially, since these bombs can easily destroy the hardened control centers for those missile silos they bragged about two months ago.

And Burma And Pakistan And...

The Iraqis learned from the Serb's mistakes. The North Koreans and Iranians are learning from the Iraqi's mistakes. The Burmese and Pakistan are learning from them...

This is a capability that the USAF absolutely needs.

479 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 8:31:56am

re: #473 Gus 802

War drums.

How do you mean, Gus? These silos and bunkers have been a problem for us, this bomb is a solution to that problem. No war mongering, just making sure we can fight wars effectively if we must. Heck, it could even be used in cave complexes in Afghanistan, giving us another weapon against the Taliban. So the GBU-57A/B is a very good idea, as it will help us win our current war and deter future aggressors.

480 Gus  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 8:34:23am

re: #479 Dark_Falcon

How do you mean, Gus? These silos and bunkers have been a problem for us, this bomb is a solution to that problem. No war mongering, just making sure we can fight wars effectively if we must. Heck, it could even be used in cave complexes in Afghanistan, giving us another weapon against the Taliban. So the GBU-57A/B is a very good idea, as it will help us win our current war and deter future aggressors.

No comment.

481 Gus  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 8:35:43am

Think I'll go watch paint dry instead. Later.

482 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 8:36:34am

Sell the war drums to a calypso band.

483 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 8:36:55am

re: #480 Gus 802

No comment.

Fair enough. I've asked that people accept my saying that at times, so it is only fair that I extend that respect to you. You've more than earned it.

484 lostlakehiker  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 8:37:20am

Not on the topic of greenhouse gases, but here's the worked example of what happens when Democrats rule, uncontested:

LA's trajectory.

Wouldn't it be lovely if every city had a purely Democratic leadership? Just like LA? Better still, if the US had no pesky Republicans or conservatives to obstruct the emulation of LA?

485 McSpiff  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 8:44:58am

re: #479 Dark_Falcon

How do you mean, Gus? These silos and bunkers have been a problem for us, this bomb is a solution to that problem. No war mongering, just making sure we can fight wars effectively if we must. Heck, it could even be used in cave complexes in Afghanistan, giving us another weapon against the Taliban. So the GBU-57A/B is a very good idea, as it will help us win our current war and deter future aggressors.

Its also a refinement of a relatively old idea that's proven itself successful in combat numerous times in the last 3/4 of a century, starting with the British Tallboy. This is the type of project that tends to fall into the "do one thing and do it right, again" category, that with proper management is usually successful.

486 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 8:48:35am

Heheh. Remember Putin's Girl Army news items a few days back? Now Limonov's fans have an answer:

487 Interesting Times  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 8:49:36am

re: #484 lostlakehiker

That article is from City Journal, a glibertarian mouthpiece of the Manhattan Institute for Policy Research, which (among other things) denies AGW. And that makes everything else they say automatically suspect for me (i.e. if they told me the sky was blue, I'd look out the window and check).

488 ProGunLiberal  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 8:49:58am

re: #484 lostlakehiker

There is other stuff involved, and you know it.

Considering the actions of Republicans recently, I wouldn't want to elect them dog-catcher.

489 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 8:49:59am

re: #485 McSpiff

Its also a refinement of a relatively old idea that's proven itself successful in combat numerous times in the last 3/4 of a century, starting with the British Tallboy. This is the type of project that tends to fall into the "do one thing and do it right, again" category, that with proper management is usually successful.

True. Part of the reason they succeed is that the "do one thing" specialization keeps there from being too many fingers in the pie. Thus the project has to succeed on its own merits, which motivates those involved with it to manage it right. Failures still happen (there are no guarantees the idea will work, after all) but you're right that such projects have a good shot.

490 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 8:52:42am

re: #487 publicityStunted

That article is from City Journal, a glibertarian mouthpiece of the Manhattan Institute for Policy Research, which (among other things) denies AGW. And that makes everything else they say automatically suspect for me (i.e. if they told me the sky was blue, I'd look out the window and check).

They were entirely supportive of William Bratton's efforts to imporve LA's Skid Row. Bratton followed their polices (which he had already come to believe in in New York) and those policies worked in LA, too. So they need to be taken seriously when it comes to cities, since they're not often wrong.

491 b_sharp  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 8:57:09am

re: #484 lostlakehiker

Not on the topic of greenhouse gases, but here's the worked example of what happens when Democrats rule, uncontested:

LA's trajectory.

Wouldn't it be lovely if every city had a purely Democratic leadership? Just like LA? Better still, if the US had no pesky Republicans or conservatives to obstruct the emulation of LA?

Do you really think federal and state politicians have that much of an influence on local economies? In the two graphs shown, I'd like to know: 1) where did the economies of those cities start? If you have a high flying economy, it's easy to drop as a correction, and if you start from the bottom it's easy to gain. 2) What is the growth rate of each city and how does it correlate to unemployment.

I really don't like articles that play games with numbers by giving far too little information, in an attempt to exaggerate reality.

492 iossarian  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 8:58:46am

re: #488 ProLifeLiberal

There is other stuff involved, and you know it.

Considering the actions of Republicans recently, I wouldn't want to elect them dog-catcher.

It's such a straw man. "Look, Detroit has Democratic political leadership!"

The real question is: what are your policies vis-a-vis:

- gay marriage
- social programs
- separation of church and state
- foreign policy
- practical matters of governance
- etc. etc.

The answer to these questions should lead you to a choice of candidate to support, not some kind of post-hoc "the auto industry has declined hence Democrats are bad" mumbo-jumbo.

493 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 9:00:37am

re: #487 publicityStunted

I do have to notice that it brings up 1900-circa LA Times own Harrison Grey Otis, and describes him as "forward thinking" (which he was, in his way). I do however, feel compelled to note that Otis was a great hater of labor unions. He tried to break organized labor in LA and the unions fought back hard. This culminated in the bombing of the LA Times building in 1910, which was carried out by the brother of the president of the Structural Ironworkers Union.

This information supplied for context and to make clear I'm not glossing over facts. A good account of the Times bombing its causes and consequences is American Lightning by Howard Blum. It's by the same publisher as The Devil in the White City too, and its almost as good.

494 McSpiff  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 9:03:57am

re: #489 Dark_Falcon

True. Part of the reason they succeed is that the "do one thing" specialization keeps there from being too many fingers in the pie. Thus the project has to succeed on its own merits, which motivates those involved with it to manage it right. Failures still happen (there are no guarantees the idea will work, after all) but you're right that such projects have a good shot.

You make an excellent point and an even better pun.

495 b_sharp  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 9:09:16am

I'd really like to know the economy's influence on the number of people wearing shorts instead of long pants in the 10 major cities. I could compile stats about the number of people wearing shorts on Oct. 27 and infer from the numbers a correlation between shorts and economy. However if I don't adjust the numbers for the actual air temperature in each city on that date, I'm getting useless numbers.

That type of unrealistic information is what we get hit with from the media when they report stats.

496 albusteve  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 9:09:42am

BO speaks at 1pm eastern...might be interesting

497 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 9:11:28am

re: #495 b_sharp

I'd really like to know the economy's influence on the number of people wearing shorts instead of long pants in the 10 major cities. I could compile stats about the number of people wearing shorts on Oct. 27 and infer from the numbers a correlation between shorts and economy. However if I don't adjust the numbers for the actual air temperature in each city on that date, I'm getting useless numbers.

That type of unrealistic information is what we get hit with from the media when they report stats.

I always wear long pants, but I also know that FVB prefers to wear no pants.

498 Killgore Trout  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 9:13:17am

Instadipshit.....

WALTER RUSSELL MEAD: Violent Urban Flashmobs And The End Of the Great Society. “The national media are doing their best to avoid looking too closely at this disturbing phenomenon, and perhaps for good reason. What the United States doesn’t need is a media firestorm that triggers copycat violence. Nevertheless some attention should be paid.”
499 b_sharp  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 9:13:55am

re: #497 Dark_Falcon

I always wear long pants, but I also know that FVB prefers to wear no pants.

I prefer to run around stark naked too, but I'm getting tired of being arrested for scaring children and little old ladies.

500 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 9:14:08am

[Link: www.derwesten.de...]

Bonn. 40.000 Euro in Cent-Beträgen schlummerten in der Garage einer Kleinunternehmerin, die das Geld ihrer angestellten Toilettenfrauen mutmaßlich nicht versteuert hatte. Ermittler der Bonner Staatsanwaltschaft rückten mit einem Lkw an.

Bonn: 40,000 Euro mostly in 1 cent coins were found in a garage of a woman running a firm servicing public toilets, apparently hidden from tax collectors. They had to bring in a truck to transport it all to the bank.

Pecunia non olet!

501 Killgore Trout  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 9:14:47am

re: #496 albusteve

BO speaks at 1pm eastern...might be interesting

Might be if he's in a fighting mood but he'll probably just say he's going to work on bipartisan cooperation which will never work.

502 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 9:15:32am

re: #498 Killgore Trout

Instadipshit...

These incidents do seem to be a problem, though, Killgore. They certainly are in Chicago, since if nothing else they make the city look lawless.

503 iossarian  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 9:16:06am

re: #499 b_sharp

I prefer to run around stark naked too, but I'm getting tired of being arrested for scaring children and little old ladies.

The laughter from women aged 20-35 makes up for it though! ///

504 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 9:16:34am

re: #496 albusteve

What's he going to talk about?

505 ProGunLiberal  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 9:17:08am

re: #492 iossarian

Also, WHite Flight has devastated Detroit.

There's race issues up North too. Especially in the Great Lakes Region.

506 albusteve  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 9:17:40am

re: #504 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

What's he going to talk about?

beats me...I think he just needs some attention

507 iossarian  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 9:18:08am

re: #504 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

What's he going to talk about?

How it's getting harder and harder to maintain the appearance of a functioning democracy, when more and more politicians operate solely on the basis of securing corporate campaign contributions?

508 Shiplord Kirel  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 9:19:54am

re: #489 Dark_Falcon

True. Part of the reason they succeed is that the "do one thing" specialization keeps there from being too many fingers in the pie. Thus the project has to succeed on its own merits, which motivates those involved with it to manage it right. Failures still happen (there are no guarantees the idea will work, after all) but you're right that such projects have a good shot.

It is paradoxical, but historically true, that weapons designed to a specific requirement often are more adaptable than those designed deliberately to more general requirements. The greatest and most versatile combat aircraft of the Cold War era, the F-4 Phantom, was designed to a very specific Navy requirement for a fleet defense interceptor. The qualities required for this, especially high power/weight ratio and relatively low wing-loading (for good climb and acceleration) also suited it well to attack missions since they provided a lot of surplus lifting power for extra fuel and weapons. It spent most of its career as a mud-mover in various theaters. In contrast, the F-111, designed to a ridiculous "all can do" specification for both services, failed in everything but the long range strike mission. Doing one thing well often provides the very qualities to do others well too, if due consideration is taken of this possibility.

509 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 9:20:27am

re: #507 iossarian

How it's getting harder and harder to maintain the appearance of a functioning democracy, when more and more politicians operate solely on the basis of securing corporate campaign contributions?

I'd vote for him in a heartbeat if he actually said that.

510 RadicalModerate  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 9:21:14am

re: #505 ProLifeLiberal

And it looks like things in the South haven't gotten much better.

Video shows white teens driving over, killing black man, says DA

Jackson, Mississippi (CNN) -- On a recent Sunday morning just before dawn, two carloads of white teenagers drove to Jackson, Mississippi, on what the county district attorney says was a mission of hate: to find and hurt a black person.

In a parking lot on the western side of town they found their victim.

James Craig Anderson, a 49-year-old auto plant worker, was standing in a parking lot, near his car. The teens allegedly beat Anderson repeatedly, yelled racial epithets, including "White Power!" according to witnesses.

Hinds County District Attorney Robert Shuler Smith says a group of the teens then climbed into their large Ford F250 green pickup truck, floored the gas, and drove the truck right over Anderson, killing him instantly.

511 b_sharp  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 9:24:26am

re: #503 iossarian

The laughter from women aged 20-35 makes up for it though! ///

Hey, don't be giving my secrets away so easily.

512 Shiplord Kirel  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 9:25:01am

re: #508 Shiplord Kirel

Another striking example from way back: The famous B-17 Flying Fortress was not designed as a strategic bomber, but as an anti-shipping aircraft to protect the US coast from potential invaders. The name originally referred to this role, in fact, and not to the aircraft's defensive armament, which was actually very light in early versions.

513 b_sharp  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 9:27:02am

re: #510 RadicalModerate

And it looks like things in the South haven't gotten much better.

Video shows white teens driving over, killing black man, says DA

Oh, for fuck sake.

Bad economies bring out the worst in people, that is understood, but it isn't acceptable to be racist at any time and causing someone's death is just fucking insane.

514 Gus  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 9:27:41am

re: #506 albusteve

beats me...I think he just needs some attention

Yes. I can't imagine why the PRESIDENT would want to speak to the American people during this financial crisis. I must be JUST for the attention. Yep, that's got to be it.

515 b_sharp  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 9:27:42am

re: #512 Shiplord Kirel

Another striking example from way back: The famous B-17 Flying Fortress was not designed as a strategic bomber, but as an anti-shipping aircraft to protect the US coast from potential invaders. The name originally referred to this role, in fact, and not to the aircraft's defensive armament, which was actually very light in early versions.

Did it have a poop deck?

516 William of Orange  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 9:27:44am

So it's OK to go waterboarding mother nature with CO2....


CO2-boarding.

517 Gus  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 9:28:17am

re: #514 Gus 802

Yes. I can't imagine why the PRESIDENT would want to speak to the American people during this financial crisis. I IT must be JUST for the attention. Yep, that's got to be it.

IT damn it.

518 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 9:28:45am

re: #510 RadicalModerate

Black folks are attacking white folks at the Wisconsin State fair.

Fuckin' sucks no matter who's doing it.

519 b_sharp  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 9:29:47am

re: #517 Gus 802

IT damn it.

You forgot your pointy sword in your correction.

You really must be looking for attention.

520 William Barnett-Lewis  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 9:29:52am

re: #498 Killgore Trout

Instadipshit...

And he wouldn't say a thing if it were white teens. Then they'd just be "excitable boys".

521 b_sharp  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 9:31:03am

re: #518 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Black folks are attacking white folks at the Wisconsin State fair.

Fuckin' sucks no matter who's doing it.

What's the context?
The death of the human with darker skin was clearly intentional and hateful.

522 Gus  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 9:31:16am

re: #519 b_sharp

You forgot your pointy sword in your correction.

You really must be looking for attention.

I saw that. Weird. Used the "slash through" button even.

Testing

523 Killgore Trout  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 9:32:44am

re: #520 wlewisiii

And he wouldn't say a thing if it were white teens. Then they'd just be "excitable boys".

Of course there are news stories and video clips every day of white teens misbehaving but Drudge and Fox News don't compile them into lists.

524 garhighway  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 9:33:08am

re: #510 RadicalModerate

And it looks like things in the South haven't gotten much better.

Video shows white teens driving over, killing black man, says DA

And the last words they uttered as they drove away were "that's one less Democratic voter!"

Well, probably not, but I suppose that sort of thing is inevitable. Why limit yourself to jamming phone banks and misinforming voters about the date of the election? Just go retro and kick the shit out of them.

525 Shiplord Kirel  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 9:33:14am

re: #515 b_sharp

Did it have a poop deck?

No, but it did have a chemical toilet. This was useless in high altitude missions, though, because it was 60 below zero in the un-pressurized plane and the seat was stainless steel.

526 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 9:33:39am

re: #521 b_sharp

[Link: www.todaystmj4.com...]

NBC.

527 b_sharp  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 9:33:44am

re: #522 Gus 802

I saw that. Weird. Used the "slash through" button even.

Testing

Spooky interaction at a distance is my guess.

528 McSpiff  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 9:34:01am

re: #508 Shiplord Kirel

re: #512 Shiplord Kirel

That's an extremely interesting point. I wonder if it comes down to adapting verses designing? Get something built that does one or two of your core design requirements right, and then modify that as needed? Basically Rapid Application Design applied to military hardware...

A detailed study of successful projects that served outside of their original design requirements compared to projects designed to fill that role that ultimately failed would make a neat Masters for someone. What's the difference between F-4 procurement to the F-35?

529 albusteve  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 9:34:03am

re: #514 Gus 802

Yes. I can't imagine why the PRESIDENT would want to speak to the American people during this financial crisis. I must be JUST for the attention. Yep, that's got to be it.

maybe he will explain headwinds again...I can't guess what he could say that anyone needs to hear

530 b_sharp  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 9:34:47am

re: #525 Shiplord Kirel

No, but it did have a chemical toilet. This was useless in high altitude missions, though, because it was 60 below zero in the un-pressurized plane and the seat was stainless steel.

Lots of skin left on that sucker I'll bet.

531 Gus  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 9:34:48am

re: #510 RadicalModerate

And it looks like things in the South haven't gotten much better.

Video shows white teens driving over, killing black man, says DA

Friend of mine came back from visiting family and friends in Tennessee and also swinging into South Carolina. He told me that he was kind of struck by the fact that the n-word is very popular there again. And it's not the wannabe use of it either. It's the racist use apparently.

532 ProGunLiberal  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 9:35:22am

re: #510 RadicalModerate

Things like this make me wish we had militarily occupied the South in the 60's. We obviously haven't finished Reconstruction.

533 lawhawk  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 9:35:45am

You know that Assad must be doing something truly evil when you get the Saudis and Turks agreeing that Assad's got to stop his crackdown. After all, the Saudis had no problem assisting Bahrain in its bloody crackdown against protesters and the Turks aren't shy about killing people either.

Yet, the scope of the brutality in Syria dwarfs what we've seen elsewhere (Libya doesn't quite count since that's an open civil war for all intents and purposes whereas the Syrian opposition hasn't apparently done anything more than stand its ground and protested and put up barriers that do nothing to stop tanks from rolling in or artillery being rained down on cities throughout the country).

534 Killgore Trout  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 9:36:08am

re: #529 albusteve

maybe he will explain headwinds again...I can't guess what he could say that anyone needs to hear

Maybe he'll tell the car/slurpee analogy again.

535 b_sharp  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 9:36:51am

re: #526 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

[Link: www.todaystmj4.com...]

NBC.

That one deserves a 'for fuck's sake' too.

536 Shiplord Kirel  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 9:37:03am

re: #528 McSpiff

re: #512 Shiplord Kirel

That's an extremely interesting point. I wonder if it comes down to adapting verses designing? Get something built that does one or two of your core design requirements right, and then modify that as needed? Basically Rapid Application Design applied to military hardware...

A detailed study of successful projects that served outside of their original design requirements compared to projects designed to fill that role that ultimately failed would make a neat Masters for someone. What's the difference between F-4 procurement to the F-35?

The F-35 is very much an "all can do" design with several major variants in the F-111 mold. It is smaller and lighter, though, which may give it a better chance of working out. It will have taken 20 years to develop by the time initial operational capability is achieved.

537 William Barnett-Lewis  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 9:37:14am

re: #512 Shiplord Kirel

Another striking example from way back: The famous B-17 Flying Fortress was not designed as a strategic bomber, but as an anti-shipping aircraft to protect the US coast from potential invaders. The name originally referred to this role, in fact, and not to the aircraft's defensive armament, which was actually very light in early versions.

Well, no, not at all. It was designed for strategic bombing from the get go. The ideas were very clear in the writings of Mitchell and Seversky and others and both Boeing and the Army were paying close attention.

Congress being a bunch of isolationist idiots would not fund an offensive weapon but would fund a defensive one. Hence the fantasy of land based bombers playing maritime interceptors.

The Fortress name was given by reporters. They didn't know anymore then than they do now and so all those bristling .30's seemed like a huge armament to them.

538 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 9:37:20am

Øyvind Strømmen is being mentioned in this new article on Fjordman: [Link: www.newsinenglish.no...]

539 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 9:38:02am

re: #538 000G

Øyvind Strømmen is being mentioned in this new article on Fjordman: [Link: www.newsinenglish.no...]

According to Norwegian Broadcasting (NRK), the particularly influences that Jensen had on Breivik’s manifesto include the conspiracy theory that since the 1970s, European political elites have encouraged Muslim immigration and “Islamization” in order to “import voters.” Another idea of Jensen’s that Breivik quoted was that Christians should meet “Islamization” by arming themselves. One of his most famous blog posts, titled “Native Revolt: A European Declaration of Independence,” states that if the demands of the anti-Islamic movement are not met, they will “have no choice but to realize that our leaders have betrayed us” and that they will “take the necessary steps in order to protect our own security and national survival.”

VG also discovered that on the days of the attacks, Jensen had written at Gates of Vienna that the Norwegian government was “the most suicidal and cowardly” in Europe and that Prime Minister Jens Stoltenberg was as “fawning” to Muslims as it “is possible to be.” As the shootings on Utøya were reported, he described the Labour Youth as “a gang of anti-Israeli, pro-Palestinian young socialists.” A leading investigator of the far right in Norway and internationally, Øyvind Strømmen, commented that while there was a “difference” between Breivik and Jensen, the blogger “is responsible for spreading an ideology where violence is a natural, logical conclusion of his reasoning.”

540 b_sharp  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 9:38:37am

re: #536 Shiplord Kirel

The F-35 is very much an "all can do" design with several major variants in the F-111 mold. It is smaller and lighter, though, which may give it a better chance of working out. It will have taken 20 years to develop by the time initial operational capability is achieved.

And sometimes a plane is just a plane.

541 RadicalModerate  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 9:38:55am

re: #518 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Black folks are attacking white folks at the Wisconsin State fair.

Fuckin' sucks no matter who's doing it.

Eyewitness reports from fairgoers are starting to dispute the racial element of the Wisconsin attacks, stating that the attacks were of a more indiscriminate nature. The teens who were responsible for this started off fighting among each other in the early part of the evening, and started accosting other fair attendees as the fairgrounds were closing for the evening. Most of the people attacked were white, however this is more due to the fact that the vast majority of the fair attendees in Milwaukee happen to be white.

It was more of a group of unruly unsupervised teens getting out of hand more than the race riots that rightwing "news" organizations were trumpeting this as - evidenced by the fact that it was local to the fairgrounds, and only occurred on opening night - this greatly due to the State Fair not allowing unsupervised minors entrance.

542 Gus  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 9:39:01am

re: #529 albusteve

maybe he will explain headwinds again...I can't guess what he could say that anyone needs to hear

He'll likely take his case to the American people and explain, from his point of view, what got us into this S&P mess and a way out of it. Expect to hear the Republican called out on this. Last time I checked he is the president and presidents get to do this. In fact it's almost a tradition. Many call it the "bull pulpit" of the presidency. That's what it amount to. He's the president, and he gets to speak. It's to his and the Democrats political advantage.

543 McSpiff  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 9:40:35am

re: #536 Shiplord Kirel

The F-35 is very much an "all can do" design with several major variants in the F-111 mold. It is smaller and lighter, though, which may give it a better chance of working out. It will have taken 20 years to develop by the time initial operational capability is achieved.

I know Australia flew the F-111 for years after the US, but was there any international involvement in the development like we've kind-of-maybe seen with the F-35?

544 garhighway  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 9:40:51am

re: #541 RadicalModerate

Eyewitness reports from fairgoers are starting to dispute the racial element of the Wisconsin attacks, stating that the attacks were of a more indiscriminate nature. The teens who were responsible for this started off fighting among each other in the early part of the evening, and started accosting other fair attendees as the fairgrounds were closing for the evening. Most of the people attacked were white, however this is more due to the fact that the vast majority of the fair attendees in Milwaukee happen to be white.

It was more of a group of unruly unsupervised teens getting out of hand more than the race riots that rightwing "news" organizations were trumpeting this as - evidenced by the fact that it was local to the fairgrounds, and only occurred on opening night - this greatly due to the State Fair not allowing unsupervised minors entrance.

This just in... most people in Wisconsin are white.

Film at Eleven.

545 sattv4u2  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 9:40:53am

re: #540 b_sharp

And sometimes a plane is just a plane.

plain talk about a plane
ExPlain that!

548 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 9:43:14am

re: #524 garhighway

And the last words they uttered as they drove away were "that's one less Democratic voter!"

Well, probably not, but I suppose that sort of thing is inevitable. Why limit yourself to jamming phone banks and misinforming voters about the date of the election? Just go retro and kick the shit out of them.

In this case "retro" is the right word, although the justice system down in jackson is now a great deal better, it seems. But the crime itself reminds me of why I've learned about the KKK down there in the 1950's-1960's.

549 Gus  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 9:43:26am

Bully pulpit that is.

550 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 9:43:27am

re: #538 000G

Øyvind Strømmen is being mentioned in this new article on Fjordman: [Link: www.newsinenglish.no...]

Also contains more Fjordman info:

Details of Jensen’s early life have continued to emerge. According to VG, he grew up in a socialist family and spent time as a member of the Socialist Left Party’s youth wing. He became critical of Islam when studying Arabic at the American University in Cairo, where he claims to have witnessed neighbours celebrating the 9/11 terrorist attacks in the USA by having cake. Soon after this, he began writing and “created” his pseudonym.

It has also been reported by news agency NTB that Jensen worked between the beginning of 2002 and mid-2003 for the Temporary International Presence in Hebron (TIPH), which is tasked with monitoring the human rights situation in the West Bank city. Rolf A. Vestvik of the Norwegian Refugee Council, which oversees the Norwegian element of the TIPH, told NTB that Jensen “did not distinguish himself in any particular way,” adding that his time at the mission was lengthened in such a way that “indicates that there were no negative comments about his work.”

It is also emerged in VG that Jensen was writing a book at the time of the attacks on “myths about European culture” for which he had a publisher lined up, but he has said that the attacks have “destroyed his desire to write.”

551 ProGunLiberal  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 9:43:45am

re: #546 b_sharp

WTF is that?

552 b_sharp  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 9:44:01am

re: #542 Gus 802

He'll likely take his case to the American people and explain, from his point of view, what got us into this S&P mess and a way out of it. Expect to hear the Republican called out on this. Last time I checked he is the president and presidents get to do this. In fact it's almost a tradition. Many call it the "bull pulpit" of the presidency. That's what it amount to. He's the president, and he gets to speak. It's to his and the Democrats political advantage.

Back in '93 Canada was downgraded from AAA+ to AA+ and it didn't finish us off. We're back to AAA+.

553 b_sharp  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 9:45:06am

re: #545 sattv4u2

plain talk about a plane
ExPlain that!

You can't explain that while on the plain.

Because it's fucking raining.

554 Gus  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 9:45:13am

re: #552 b_sharp

Back in '93 Canada was downgraded from AAA+ to AA+ and it didn't finish us off. We're back to AAA+.

Yeah but Wall Street is looking for any excuse. They're stuck in "martyr mode" which they often do.

555 sattv4u2  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 9:45:21am

re: #549 Gus 802

Bully pulpit that is.

bull!

556 b_sharp  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 9:45:48am

re: #547 Sergey Romanov

what

Three arms, two legs.

A Motie.

557 Gus  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 9:46:01am

re: #555 sattv4u2

bull!

Shit!

558 sattv4u2  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 9:46:31am

re: #553 b_sharp

You can't explain that while on the plain.

Because it's fucking raining.

I better get to Spain

559 Killgore Trout  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 9:46:34am

re: #550 000G

It is also emerged in VG that Jensen was writing a book at the time of the attacks on “myths about European culture” for which he had a publisher lined up, but he has said that the attacks have “destroyed his desire to write.”


Silver lining.

560 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 9:46:49am

re: #556 b_sharp

Three arms, two legs.

A Motie.

i can't explain that

561 Gus  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 9:46:57am

re: #558 sattv4u2

I better get to Spain

The rains in Spain...

562 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 9:47:19am

re: a href="/showc/535/9204958">#535 b_sharp

That's what I mean. Selecting someone purely because of their race...

I'm imagining that if a large group (hundreds) of white kids social networked up and went out in large numbers attacking black folks; it'd be more than just Drudge linking it.

It should be noted that PETA does not go to Sturgis to attack folks wearing leather.

Bunch of fucking cowards. All of them.

563 Shiplord Kirel  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 9:47:24am

re: #537 wlewisiii

Well, no, not at all. It was designed for strategic bombing from the get go. The ideas were very clear in the writings of Mitchell and Seversky and others and both Boeing and the Army were paying close attention.

Congress being a bunch of isolationist idiots would not fund an offensive weapon but would fund a defensive one. Hence the fantasy of land based bombers playing maritime interceptors.

The Fortress name was given by reporters. They didn't know anymore then than they do now and so all those bristling .30's seemed like a huge armament to them.

The specification said what it said, a bomber to replace the B-10 and to be capable of reinforcing Hawaii, Alaska, and the Panama Canal Zone, none of which are within range of likely strategic targets. The experimental XB-15, built at roughly the same time, was specifically a strategic bomber project, to be capable of hitting Japan from Guam.

Richard Williams, a reporter for the Seattle Times coined the name "Flying Fortress" when the Model 299 was rolled out, bristling with multiple machine gun installations.[14] The most unique being the nose installation (see note for description and drawing) which allowed the single machine gun to be fired from about any frontal angle any approaching enemy fighter would take to attack the B-17 [15] Boeing also claimed in some of the early press releases that Model 299 was the first combat aircraft that could continue its mission if one of its four engines for what ever reason failed.


This is wrong. Williams was referring to its role. The model 299 had only five machine guns, all of .30 caliber, compared to the much smaller B-10's three. The B-10 also had a nose turret, so this was hardly unique or striking.

564 Cannadian Club Akbar  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 9:47:35am

Snakes on a plane.

565 sattv4u2  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 9:47:43am

re: #552 b_sharp

Back in '93 Canada was downgraded from AAA+ to AA+ and it didn't finish us off. We're back to AAA+.

I once stayed a a AAA+ hotel in Montreal

Does that count?

566 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 9:48:10am

re: #544 garhighway

This just in... most people in Wisconsin are white.

Film at Eleven.

This also in: Joe McCarthy returns from the dead, smacks Tea Party leader in Wisconsin upside the head for fanning racial fears he had worked to quell.

That isn't intended entirely as a joke. For all his flaws, McCarthy wasn't a racist and he actively campaigned in the black sections of Milwaukee and Green bay and worked to earn those votes once elected. In his reelection run, he actually won the black vote in his state. So on race, many in the Tea Party are worse than Joe McCarthy.

567 b_sharp  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 9:48:10am

re: #557 Gus 802

re: #555 sattv4u2

bull!

Shit!

Cleanup in aisle Four, kleenex and toilet tissue.

Bring a shovel.

568 Mocking Jay  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 9:48:15am

So... how about that Dow... oy.

569 sattv4u2  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 9:48:21am

re: #564 Cannadian Club Akbar

Snakes on a plane.

aGAIN?

570 Shiplord Kirel  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 9:48:46am

re: #563 Shiplord Kirel

Link for Williams quote.

571 ProGunLiberal  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 9:49:07am

re: #550 000G

This guy sounds like a mirror of Sayyid Qutb.

He made similar exaggerated statements about the US.

In fact, look at this from Wikipedia (sourced well) about Iran at the time:

Huge crowds attended candlelit vigils in Iran, and 60,000 spectators observed a minute's silence at Tehran football stadium.

572 b_sharp  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 9:49:09am

re: #560 Sergey Romanov

i can't explain that

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

573 b_sharp  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 9:50:06am

re: #564 Cannadian Club Akbar

Snakes on a plane.

Keep it in your pants, dude.

574 Shiplord Kirel  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 9:50:54am

Rats! Duty calls. BBL

575 sattv4u2  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 9:50:56am

K kiddies

Dad wants me to take him somewhere ,,,,AGAIN

(been his chauffer since arriving in Boston Saturday night,,, and the thing is ,, HE DRIVES!!!!)

576 b_sharp  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 9:51:16am

re: #565 sattv4u2

I once stayed a a AAA+ hotel in Montreal

Does that count?

I belong to the AAA (Amazingly Arrogant Assholes).

577 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 9:51:23am

re: #544 garhighway

Jeffery Dahmer was from Wisconsin!

578 sattv4u2  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 9:51:49am

re: #576 b_sharp

I belong to the AAA (Amazingly Arrogant Assholes).

I'm not jjust a member,,, I'mm the President

579 Gus  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 9:52:12am

re: #576 b_sharp

I belong to the AAA (Amazingly Arrogant Assholes).

I'm not an expert but I play one on the internet.

//

580 sattv4u2  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 9:52:46am

re: #577 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Jeffery Dahmer was from Wisconsin!

{burp}

581 b_sharp  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 9:52:49am

re: #578 sattv4u2

I'm not jjust a member,,, I'mm the President

I thought you liked it so much you bought the company.

582 b_sharp  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 9:53:27am

re: #580 sattv4u2

{burp}

More headcheese please.

583 sattv4u2  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 9:54:33am

re: #581 b_sharp

I thought you liked it so much you bought the company.

I was going to, but it was a shitty deal

584 sattv4u2  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 9:55:01am

OUTTIE

585 Killgore Trout  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 9:55:39am

Live stream of Obama's amazing speech about the economy sucking balls....
[Link: www.whitehouse.gov...]

Should be starting soon.

586 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 9:56:42am

re: #563 Shiplord Kirel

Even more odd is how sometimes cobbled together units can sometimes be astonishingly effective. Staying in aviation, the Japanese Ki-100 was an example of this. Formed by using using small-diameter radial engines and Ki-61 airframes, it was a marriage of necessity after B-29s (another Boeing product) destroyed the factory producing the Ki-61's inline engine. Despite its improvisational nature (the Japanese engines assigned to the project weren't at all sure it would work), the Ki-100 actually turned out to be an effective fighter. It had enough speed, good armament, and it (finally) had armor and self-sealing fuel tanks.

It may be a bit overrated by aviation students, though. Its calling card was its first fight, against USN Hellcats whose pilots did not know what they were fighting. The Hellcats tried to fight the Ki-100's like they were Zeros, with the result that slashing attacks that would destroy a Zero did only moderate damage. Moreover, the Ki-100s, as still-somewhat experimental, were being flown by test pilots and instructors, some of the few remaining experienced Japanese pilots.

587 b_sharp  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 9:56:50am

re: #584 sattv4u2

OUTTIE

If you have an outtie, then you're too fat.

Oh, shit, you meant you're leaving, sorry.

Now I can say anything I want about you and you'll never know. Muhahaha!!

588 Cannadian Club Akbar  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 9:57:12am

re: #585 Killgore Trout

Live stream of Obama's amazing speech about the economy sucking balls...
[Link: www.whitehouse.gov...]

Should be starting soon.

The speech not given yet is amazing? Whatever you say Chris Matthews!!!
/

589 Gus  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 9:57:21am

re: #585 Killgore Trout

Live stream of Obama's amazing speech about the economy sucking balls...
[Link: www.whitehouse.gov...]

Should be starting soon.

...

What the hell is Barack HUSSEIN Obama gonna talk about now?!!11ty

//Derpity derpy derp hurr hurr.

590 b_sharp  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 9:59:06am

re: #589 Gus 802

...

//Derpity derpy derp hurr hurr.

Listen closely. There will be a sneaky subliminal 'Praise Allah' somewhere in his speech.

591 Killgore Trout  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 9:59:58am

re: #589 Gus 802

...

//Derpity derpy derp hurr hurr.

Ed Morrisey is claiming the press conference means the Dems are going primary Obama or something.

592 iossarian  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 10:00:17am

re: #590 b_sharp

Listen closely. There will be a sneaky subliminal 'Praise Allah' somewhere in his speech.

It wouldn't surprise me if he included some references to Ramadan, and also brought Ray LaHood on so that he can bow to him.

593 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 10:00:39am

re: #572 b_sharp

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

Jerry Pournelle is an excellent writer of military sci-fi. His two books that tell the story of an insurgency on the planet Sparta are very good and very informative as to the nature of insurgency and counter-insurgency.

594 garhighway  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 10:01:01am

re: #593 Dark_Falcon

Jerry Pournelle is an excellent writer of military sci-fi. His two books that tell the story of an insurgency on the planet Sparta are very good and very informative as to the nature of insurgency and counter-insurgency.

Niven's great, too.

595 Gus  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 10:01:19am

re: #591 Killgore Trout

Ed Morrisey is claiming the press conference means the Dems are going primary Obama or something.

But of course. That's exactly what it must mean. Too funny. They're already commenting on his speech before he even opens his mouth.

596 Varek Raith  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 10:02:17am

[Link: www.google.com...]
Oy.

597 b_sharp  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 10:02:26am

re: #593 Dark_Falcon

Jerry Pournelle is an excellent writer of military sci-fi. His two books that tell the story of an insurgency on the planet Sparta are very good and very informative as to the nature of insurgency and counter-insurgency.

I prefer Niven's work. His Ringworld imaginings were impressive. I'm far more into science than the military.

598 b_sharp  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 10:03:30am

re: #595 Gus 802

But of course. That's exactly what it must mean. Too funny. They're already commenting on his speech before he even opens his mouth.

You mean it's not about the balls he hangs on his tree?

599 Gus  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 10:04:01am

Welcome to the strange new world. Where the S&P downgrade means nothing but something when you put Obama in that context. Thus, S&P downgrade is good news for Teabaggers. However, if you want to blame something on Obama, blame him for the S&P downgrade. Can you say bipolar?

600 blueraven  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 10:04:03am

re: #542 Gus 802

He'll likely take his case to the American people and explain, from his point of view, what got us into this S&P mess and a way out of it. Expect to hear the Republican called out on this. Last time I checked he is the president and presidents get to do this. In fact it's almost a tradition. Many call it the "bull pulpit" of the presidency. That's what it amount to. He's the president, and he gets to speak. It's to his and the Democrats political advantage.

If he didn't come out and say something, you would hear the loud cries; Where is the President? Why doesn't he do something?
Really, no matter what he does or says, some people will just bitch about it.

601 b_sharp  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 10:04:50am

re: #596 Varek Raith

[Link: www.google.com...]
Oy.

The people terrified of a market collapse are the ones causing the collapse.

There is something wrong with that picture.

602 Gus  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 10:05:07am

re: #598 b_sharp

You mean it's not about the balls he hangs on his tree?

Mao and drag queens oh my!!

//

603 Winny Spencer  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 10:05:35am

Speech starts 1.30 PM ET now?

604 Varek Raith  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 10:05:52am

re: #603 Winny Spencer

Speech starts 1.30 PM ET now?

CONSPIRACY!

605 b_sharp  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 10:06:16am

re: #599 Gus 802

Welcome to the strange new world. Where the S&P downgrade means nothing but something when you put Obama in that context. Thus, S&P downgrade is good news for Teabaggers. However, if you want to blame something on Obama, blame him for the S&P downgrade. Can you say bipolar?

I think we can call that unipolar because negative intelligence (stupidity) causes all kinds of confused thinking.

606 Varek Raith  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 10:06:20am

re: #602 Gus 802

Mao and drag queens oh my!!

//

Poppycock!
/

607 b_sharp  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 10:08:07am

re: #600 blueraven

If he didn't come out and say something, you would hear the loud cries; Where is the President? Why doesn't he do something?
Really, no matter what he does or says, some people will just bitch about it.

Can we get a hurrumph?

608 Gus  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 10:08:12am

re: #606 Varek Raith

Poppycock!
/

...

BHO'S GOING TO FLY TEH FLAG OF THE PEOPLE'S REPUBLIC OF CHINA ON TEH WHITE HOUSE LAWN!!11TY

609 Gus  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 10:08:40am

Michele of Bachmann's on the deck. ->

610 Someone Please Beam Me Up!  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 10:08:43am

re: #484 lostlakehiker

Not on the topic of greenhouse gases, but here's the worked example of what happens when Democrats rule, uncontested:

LA's trajectory.

On the other hand, we have a nationwide example of what happens when Republicans rule, uncontested:

THE BUSH YEARS

(in all their glory). And we're still living with them now... enjoy!

611 b_sharp  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 10:11:53am

re: #609 Gus 802

Michele of Bachmann's on the deck. ->

So is my last night's supper.

612 Kragar  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 10:16:44am

re: #597 b_sharp

I prefer Niven's work. His Ringworld imaginings were impressive. I'm far more into science than the military.

Get Legcay of Heorat. Niven and Pournells together.

613 b_sharp  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 10:18:20am

re: #582 b_sharp

More headcheese please.

I make a brilliant (if somewhat cheesy) word play comment, based on Dahmer's practice of storing heads in the fridge and Wisconsin's famous cheeses and I get only one upding.

This is a tough crowd.

614 b_sharp  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 10:19:02am

re: #612 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Get Legcay of Heorat. Niven and Pournells together.

I have it.

615 lostlakehiker  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 11:23:57am

re: #487 publicityStunted

That article is from City Journal, a glibertarian mouthpiece of the Manhattan Institute for Policy Research, which (among other things) denies AGW. And that makes everything else they say automatically suspect for me (i.e. if they told me the sky was blue, I'd look out the window and check).

So, do look out the window and check. This notion that if anybody is wrong on anything they're wrong on everything is cockeyed.

City Journal's article makes claims of fact. LA has high unemployment. U.S. citizens are emigrating from LA. LA pays high pensions. Turnout is low in primaries, and unions get out the vote. Primaries are the only real elections; the Democrat always wins in the general election.

So, is this all wrong?

What we have here is a forum in which any observation that reflects negatively on Democrats is rejected out of hand, regardless of facts, logic, evidence, what have you. It's like a mirror of Republican "thinking" on global warming.

Union Democrats rule LA, and they misrule it. You may win the ding contest, but Houston wins the economic contest. People who have no say in the rule of LA are voting with their feet.

616 lostlakehiker  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 11:26:24am

re: #610 C1nnabar

On the other hand, we have a nationwide example of what happens when Republicans rule, uncontested:

THE BUSH YEARS

(in all their glory). And we're still living with them now... enjoy!

Indeed. That's not any better. Without pesky Democrats to obstruct their "vision", Republicans find their own ways to misrule the nation.

617 lawhawk  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 11:50:14am

re: #396 garhighway

I loves me my acronyms, but what's the CRA?

Good catch, I should have said CDO - collaterized debt obligations, not CRA. I was working on something else using that acronym when I posted.

618 Obdicut  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 11:52:54am

re: #615 lostlakehiker

Doesn't the fact that the article comes from a bunch of AGW deniers break your stride in the least? It doesn't even make you rethink what you're saying for a single second, you just keep ploughing on ahead-- while lecturing other people on being knee-jerk?

Dripping with thick, creamy irony. Jesus.

619 solomonpanting  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 12:06:58pm

Even NASA has been corrupted.

620 Interesting Times  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 12:17:36pm

re: #619 solomonpanting

Even NASA has been corrupted.

Ah geez...

Though it should also be said that the only thing with "gaping holes" blown in it is the very "study" you reference:

Climate Scientists Debunk Latest Bunk by Denier Roy Spencer

It bears repeating that Spencer committed one of the most egregious blunders in the history of remote sensing — committing multiple errors in analyzing the satellite data and creating one of the enduring denier myths, that the satellite data didn’t show the global warming that the surface temperature data did.

621 so.cal.swede  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 12:53:05pm

it has pandas on the cover, seems legit.


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