Live Video: Obama on the Downgrade
President Obama’s statement on the credit downgrade
Politics • Views: 38,614
467 comments
1 |
Obdicut Mon, Aug 8, 2011 10:55:56am |
Common sense and compromise!
Those are toxic to Tea Partiers.
| 2 |
Killgore Trout Mon, Aug 8, 2011 10:56:01am |
Common sense and comprimise
Not gonna happen
| 3 |
Political Atheist Mon, Aug 8, 2011 10:56:30am |
Face it folks. Two wars and a recession calls for increased tax revenues. No two ways about it.
| 4 |
Iwouldprefernotto Mon, Aug 8, 2011 10:57:14am |
I support Obama, but this isn’t going to help.
| 7 |
Lidane Mon, Aug 8, 2011 10:58:05am |
re: #3 Rightwingconspirator
Face it folks. Two wars and a recession calls for increased tax revenues. No two ways about it.
Why do you hate America?
///
| 8 |
Killgore Trout Mon, Aug 8, 2011 10:58:16am |
re: #4 Iwouldprefernotto
I support Obama, but this isn’t going to help.
I agree. It’s probably pretty hopeless.
| 9 |
Bulworth Mon, Aug 8, 2011 10:59:30am |
re: #8 Killgore Trout
I agree. It’s probably pretty hopeless.
I guess that depends on what the objective is. And at this point I honestly wouldn’t know myself.
| 10 |
Obdicut Mon, Aug 8, 2011 10:59:39am |
re: #4 Iwouldprefernotto
I support Obama, but this isn’t going to help.
He’s putting out some good things for people to think about, that are simply said and may actually make an impression.
I don’t think it’ll sway the current crop of GOP, though.
| 11 |
iossarian Mon, Aug 8, 2011 10:59:44am |
re: #8 Killgore Trout
I agree. It’s probably pretty hopeless.
We’re fucked, aren’t we. He’s basically begging the Republicans to agree to something, anything.
What a fucking shambles.
| 12 |
RadicalModerate Mon, Aug 8, 2011 10:59:52am |
Dammit. I want Obama to identify the Tea Party thugs BY NAME as the source of holding our credit rating hostage, and being directly responsible for the downgrade.
| 13 |
iossarian Mon, Aug 8, 2011 11:00:49am |
re: #12 RadicalModerate
Dammit. I want Obama to identify the Tea Party thugs BY NAME as the source of holding our credit rating hostage, and being directly responsible for the downgrade.
Now, now. No-one likes an uppity black president.
| 14 |
Dark_Falcon Mon, Aug 8, 2011 11:01:00am |
re: #12 RadicalModerate
Dammit. I want Obama to identify the Tea Party thugs BY NAME as the source of holding our credit rating hostage, and being directly responsible for the downgrade.
He’s not going to do that. He wants a compromise and doing that would make it impossible.
| 15 |
Interesting Times Mon, Aug 8, 2011 11:01:45am |
re: #14 Dark_Falcon
He’s not going to do that. He wants a compromise and doing that would make it impossible.
As if it’s in any way possible now 9_9
| 16 |
RogueOne Mon, Aug 8, 2011 11:01:52am |
I’m confused. If he thought his debt commission came back with some good ideas why has it been sitting on the shelf for the last 9 months?
| 17 |
Dark_Falcon Mon, Aug 8, 2011 11:02:44am |
Now he’s on the KIAs in Afghanistan. This part he’ll do well. And his part about including the Afghan troops who died was wise too.
| 18 |
Bob Dillon Mon, Aug 8, 2011 11:03:05am |
re: #8 Killgore Trout
I agree. It’s probably pretty hopeless.
re: #5 chan
So what should we cut, specifically?
Cut? Not the issue. It would be good to make oneself a parachute financially instead of looking to our elected officials for a solution. We are past the point of possible solutions. From here out its personal choice. We are all going over the falls. We are all going to get wet. Its about how hard you are willing to hit the water at the bottom when we do. Greenspan summed it up nicely on Meet the Press this Sunday when he stated that “the U.S. can pay any debt it has because we can always print money to do that”. Uhhh now if someone isn’t given pause by that, then it might be good to educate themselves here: [Link: en.wikipedia.org…]
[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com…]
| 19 |
RogueOne Mon, Aug 8, 2011 11:03:08am |
re: #17 Dark_Falcon
Now he’s on the KIAs in Afghanistan. This part he’ll do well. And his part about including the Afghan troops who died was wise too.
Chris Matthews just said it should be 2 different speeches. I sort of agree.
| 21 |
Dark_Falcon Mon, Aug 8, 2011 11:04:09am |
re: #16 RogueOne
I’m confused. If he thought his debt commission came back with some good ideas why has it been sitting on the shelf for the last 9 months?
Because he’s fairly liberal and doesn’t really want to cut spending. He’s accepted that it needs to happen, but he does not like it.
| 22 |
RadicalModerate Mon, Aug 8, 2011 11:04:26am |
re: #16 RogueOne
Because the Teahadist wing of the Republican Party have been blocking EVERY recommendation with their insane absolutist crap every step of the way.
| 23 |
(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Mon, Aug 8, 2011 11:04:36am |
re: #14 Dark_Falcon
He’s not going to do that. He wants a compromise and doing that would make it impossible.
What would make a compromise possible, in your opinion?
| 24 |
Political Atheist Mon, Aug 8, 2011 11:05:54am |
re: #12 RadicalModerate
Dammit. I want Obama to identify the Tea Party thugs BY NAME as the source of holding our credit rating hostage, and being directly responsible for the downgrade.
9/10ths agree
That should be done below that Presidential level. “Above the fray” and all that.
That having been said, why is everyone from Biden to Pelisi to Reid to the DNC not saying much?
| 25 |
Political Atheist Mon, Aug 8, 2011 11:07:27am |
re: #18 Bobibutu
re: #5 chan
So what should we cut, specifically?
Cut? Not the issue. It would be good to make oneself a parachute financially instead of looking to our elected officials for a solution. We are past the point of possible solutions. From here out its personal choice. We are all going over the falls. We are all going to get wet. Its about how hard you are willing to hit the water at the bottom when we do. Greenspan summed it up nicely on Meet the Press this Sunday when he stated that “the U.S. can pay any debt it has because we can always print money to do that”. Uhhh now if someone isn’t given pause by that, then it might be good to educate themselves here: [Link: en.wikipedia.org…]
[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com…]
Agree. The very same Greenspan who warned us of the terrible consequences of a surplus. LOL.
| 26 |
Obdicut Mon, Aug 8, 2011 11:09:28am |
re: #24 Rightwingconspirator
They are saying stuff, it’s just that they haven’t got the same draw from the media that the whacko GOP does. It’s kind of funny; the GOP has become such the media party, such the bunch of slick hucksters. The exact opposite of the Clinton years.
| 27 |
Obdicut Mon, Aug 8, 2011 11:11:59am |
Weiner was the only Democrat who made for good television. Unfortunately, he took that a little too far.
| 28 |
3CPO Mon, Aug 8, 2011 11:12:49am |
re: #27 Obdicut
Weiner was the only Democrat who made for good television. Unfortunately, he took that a little too far.
I loved his little talks with Megan Kelly.
| 29 |
(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Mon, Aug 8, 2011 11:12:55am |
re: #27 Obdicut
Weiner was the only Democrat who made for good television. Unfortunately, he took that a little too far.
Kucinich, everything else notwithstanding, is also good TV.
| 30 |
garhighway Mon, Aug 8, 2011 11:13:33am |
| 31 |
Gus Mon, Aug 8, 2011 11:13:37am |
Watched it. It was OK for the most part. My only criticism though would be the time he chose to speak. Might have been better during the evening hours when most Americans are at home.
| 32 |
(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Mon, Aug 8, 2011 11:14:01am |
re: #30 garhighway
That, and the media just loved having a Ron Paul Democrat to show for.
| 33 |
BishopX Mon, Aug 8, 2011 11:15:52am |
re: #31 Gus 802
He was trying to calm the markets. If the president speaks and markets climb he looks good.
| 36 |
Political Atheist Mon, Aug 8, 2011 11:17:00am |
re: #26 Obdicut
Well with the caveat I avoid pundits like I avoid bad sea food, the clips I see on the MSM news are pretty tame. Not naming names. Not really taking it to them. Weak tea as far as counter punching goes.
| 37 |
Gus Mon, Aug 8, 2011 11:17:35am |
re: #33 BishopX
He was trying to calm the markets. If the president speaks and markets climb he looks good.
That could be a reasoning. However, if he speaks and the markets don’t respond then it makes him look bad. They’re not responding well if this is the theory behind it.
10,944.07
-500.54 (-4.37%)
| 39 |
iossarian Mon, Aug 8, 2011 11:18:28am |
re: #37 Gus 802
That could be a reasoning. However, if he speaks and the markets don’t respond then it makes him look bad. They’re not responding well if this is the theory behind it.
10,944.07
-500.54 (-4.37%)
Looks as if the “please, GOP, please agree to a single item that might, just might, help the economy a little bit” approach isn’t winning over the brokers.
| 40 |
Kragar Mon, Aug 8, 2011 11:19:54am |
| 41 |
Bulworth Mon, Aug 8, 2011 11:20:12am |
re: #39 iossarian
Looks as if the “please, GOP, please agree to a single item that might, just might, help the economy a little bit” approach isn’t winning over the brokers.
Did he call for anything specifically?
| 42 |
Gus Mon, Aug 8, 2011 11:20:53am |
re: #41 Bulworth
Did he call for anything specifically?
Yeah. To raise the taxes “on those who can afford it…”
| 43 |
Killgore Trout Mon, Aug 8, 2011 11:20:54am |
| 44 |
Gus Mon, Aug 8, 2011 11:21:11am |
re: #42 Gus 802
Yeah. To raise the taxes “on those who can afford it…”
I.e. the whole Bush tax cuts debate.
| 45 |
(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Mon, Aug 8, 2011 11:21:37am |
Nice, honest criticism of No-Child-Left-Behind.
| 46 |
leftynyc Mon, Aug 8, 2011 11:22:25am |
re: #14 Dark_Falcon
He’s not going to do that. He wants a compromise and doing that would make it impossible.
He wants compromise but I’ve seen nothing since the 2008 election that indicates the other side will do anything resembling compromise. He wont blame the teabaggers by name because he’s a decent man and that’s not his style.
| 47 |
iossarian Mon, Aug 8, 2011 11:22:34am |
re: #41 Bulworth
Did he call for anything specifically?
Payroll tax cut and unemployment benefits extension.
Obama makes plans and the GOP laughs.
| 48 |
Dark_Falcon Mon, Aug 8, 2011 11:24:14am |
re: #33 BishopX
He was trying to calm the markets. If the president speaks and markets climb he looks good.
The problem is that as David Gregen noted Obama was speaking to the general public not the markets. A market focused speech would have been more specific and would talked about putting money into their pockets, not broader job creation. But the Democratic left wouldn’t have liked a speech like that.
| 49 |
Lidane Mon, Aug 8, 2011 11:24:18am |
re: #45 000G
Nice, honest criticism of No-Child-Left-Behind.
There’s a metric ton of criticism for NCLB. I had a friend try to write her senior thesis about NCLB back in undergrad and she literally could not find any scholarly, peer-reviewed research that supported it.
| 50 |
Gus Mon, Aug 8, 2011 11:24:32am |
re: #47 iossarian
Payroll tax cut and unemployment benefits extension.
Obama makes plans and the GOP laughs.
That too. He mentioned how “these are things that Republicans have supported” more or less. On extending the payroll tax cuts.
| 51 |
Kragar Mon, Aug 8, 2011 11:25:02am |
re: #49 Lidane
There’s a metric ton of criticism for NCLB. I had a friend try to write her senior thesis about NCLB back in undergrad and she literally could not find any scholarly, peer-reviewed research that supported it.
Peer review is the Devil’s tool!
| 52 |
lawhawk Mon, Aug 8, 2011 11:25:03am |
re: #39 iossarian
A plea for rational thought on the part of the GOP isn’t going to calm the markets; it’s a sign of weakness and doesn’t leave the Administration with many options at its disposal. The TP will see that as a victory, and push for more of the same, even as it undermines the US economic position to deal with the flailing economy.
We might see the Fed engage in another qualitative easing, but with a deadlocked Congress, nothing new is going to come from that front. You’ve got markets spooked, even though the fundamental situation is unchanged from before the S&P lowered the rating on Friday.
Some of the market decline is due to the S&P downgrade of the US, but it’s also because the S&P issued downgrades on Fannie and Freddie, and a bunch of insurers including those owned by Berkshire Hathaway (which it also downgraded, a slap at Warren Buffet btw), who took his own slaps back at the S&P downgrade on the US today.
| 54 |
Vicious Babushka Mon, Aug 8, 2011 11:25:52am |
re: #49 Lidane
There’s a metric ton of criticism for NCLB. I had a friend try to write her senior thesis about NCLB back in undergrad and she literally could not find any scholarly, peer-reviewed research that supported it.
Correct me if I’m wrong, but didn’t George W. Bush also promise to discontinue NCLB?
| 55 |
(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Mon, Aug 8, 2011 11:25:55am |
re: #49 Lidane
There’s a metric ton of criticism for NCLB. I had a friend try to write her senior thesis about NCLB back in undergrad and she literally could not find any scholarly, peer-reviewed research that supported it.
Well, yeah, scholarly of course – academia feels the bad effects the hardest. But it’s nice to see this played out on such a prominent national political stage. Will move the ball forward.
| 59 |
engineer cat Mon, Aug 8, 2011 11:26:22am |
Romney hits Obama on downgrade
“I’m afraid the president is just out of his depth at understanding how the private economy works.” Romney told reporters at an event in New Hampshire, offering early-primary voters his own seven-point economic plan.
i tried to find out what these seven points are, but no luck
thanks a lot for all your help, mitt
| 60 |
allegro Mon, Aug 8, 2011 11:26:34am |
re: #46 leftynyc
He wants compromise but I’ve seen nothing since the 2008 election that indicates the other side will do anything resembling compromise. He wont blame the teabaggers by name because he’s a decent man and that’s not his style.
A decent man can certainly call out indecency when and where appropriate and remain decent himself. At what point does it become indecent to finally take on the mantle of leadership and call this unconscionable behavior out?
| 61 |
William Barnett-Lewis Mon, Aug 8, 2011 11:26:35am |
re: #3 Rightwingconspirator
Face it folks. Two wars and a recession calls for increased tax revenues. No two ways about it.
And a massive stimulus package. Pure econ 101.
| 62 |
Dark_Falcon Mon, Aug 8, 2011 11:26:44am |
re: #43 Killgore Trout
Revenue increases and reform for medicare.
OK, then let’s see a semi-specific Medicare proposal. The Republicans already have one, via Paul Ryan, so let’s see his idea.
| 63 |
Kragar Mon, Aug 8, 2011 11:27:08am |
Finally David Barton says something I can agree with:
| 64 |
iossarian Mon, Aug 8, 2011 11:27:53am |
re: #59 engineer dog
Romney hits Obama on downgrade
“I’m afraid the president is just out of his depth at understanding how the private economy works.” Romney told reporters at an event in New Hampshire, offering early-primary voters his own seven-point economic plan.
i tried to find out what these seven points are, but no luck
thanks a lot for all your help, mitt
I think one of them is not letting gays get married. There’s also some points on not bowing to foreign rulers I think.
| 65 |
engineer cat Mon, Aug 8, 2011 11:28:13am |
as far as i can make out, there is nothing left for the president to do in regard to the intransigent and harmful attitude of the republican party except yell THIS HAS GONE FAR ENOUGH ASSHOLES QUIT FUCKING AROUND RIGHT NOW AND GET REAL
| 66 |
Interesting Times Mon, Aug 8, 2011 11:29:15am |
re: #59 engineer dog
Romney hits Obama on downgrade
“I’m afraid the president is just out of his depth at understanding how the private economy works.” Romney told reporters at an event in New Hampshire, offering early-primary voters his own seven-point economic plan.
i tried to find out what these seven points are, but no luck
1) Pray for rain
2) Ban gay marriage
3) Defund Planned Parenthood
4) Abolish the EPA
5) Enshrine the Bush tax cuts
6) ???
7) PROFIT!
| 67 |
William Barnett-Lewis Mon, Aug 8, 2011 11:29:37am |
re: #49 Lidane
There’s a metric ton of criticism for NCLB. I had a friend try to write her senior thesis about NCLB back in undergrad and she literally could not find any scholarly, peer-reviewed research that supported it.
The problems with it, especially in regards to the nearly mandated “teaching to the test” is why I’ve always referred to it as the Every Child Left Behind act. Every child in public education is harm, in my view, by the consequences - direct and indirect - of that act.
| 68 |
lawhawk Mon, Aug 8, 2011 11:29:44am |
re: #57 Killgore Trout
And with last week’s losses, we’re looking at a major correction in progress (closing in on 10% in 2 weeks).
| 69 |
Gus Mon, Aug 8, 2011 11:29:47am |
See. BBC News is saying “Markets fall despite Obama speech.” I’ll say it again. Obama should have waited until this evening.
| 70 |
iossarian Mon, Aug 8, 2011 11:30:35am |
re: #52 lawhawk
A plea for rational thought on the part of the GOP isn’t going to calm the markets; it’s a sign of weakness and doesn’t leave the Administration with many options at its disposal. The TP will see that as a victory, and push for more of the same, even as it undermines the US economic position to deal with the flailing economy.
Yup, it’s a sign of weakness to enquire whether the party that controls the legislative process might be capable of rational thought.
Thanks, GOP voters!
| 71 |
Killgore Trout Mon, Aug 8, 2011 11:31:13am |
re: #68 lawhawk
And with last week’s losses, we’re looking at a major correction in progress (closing in on 10% in 2 weeks).
Most of the predictions I read over the weekend expected a 10-15% correction because of the downgrade.
| 72 |
Charleston Chew Mon, Aug 8, 2011 11:32:15am |
re: #10 Obdicut
He’s putting out some good things for people to think about, that are simply said and may actually make an impression.
I don’t think it’ll sway the current crop of GOP, though.
It’s easier for people to not think about things. Not thinking about things is their default state. And I don’t mean that as a cynical insult. People are busy with their own personal concerns. To get people to think about things, they must be coerced through emotion and you have to hold their hand every step of the way.
| 74 |
Killgore Trout Mon, Aug 8, 2011 11:33:35am |
Brazil stocks extend fall to 9.7%, Mexico off 6.1%
| 75 |
BishopX Mon, Aug 8, 2011 11:34:10am |
re: #66 publicityStunted
1) Pray for rain
2) Ban gay marriage
3) Defund Planned Parenthood
4) Abolish the EPA
5) Enshrine the Bush tax cuts
6) ???
7) PROFIT!
I think that’s perry’s seven point economic plan.
The Romney’s looks somethings like:
1) move to New Hampshire so he can be relevant to national political discourse.
2) get a really nice haircut
3)meet with his corporate friends to see if they can do anything
4) replace social security numbers with corporate sponsored naming rights
5) Gut the SEC, EPA, FCC and FDA while pretending to enforce “voluntary compliance” measures.
6)???
7) Run for re-election
| 76 |
iossarian Mon, Aug 8, 2011 11:34:13am |
re: #74 Killgore Trout
Brazil stocks extend fall to 9.7%, Mexico off 6.1%
There goes my BRIC hedging strategy! ///
| 77 |
Idle Drifter Mon, Aug 8, 2011 11:35:12am |
| 78 |
Charleston Chew Mon, Aug 8, 2011 11:35:25am |
| 79 |
Varek Raith Mon, Aug 8, 2011 11:35:41am |
Congrats TPGOP, you’ve damaged the economy and our credit outstandingly well.
| 80 |
blueraven Mon, Aug 8, 2011 11:38:54am |
re: #3 Rightwingconspirator
Face it folks. Two wars
and a recessioncalls for increased tax revenues, NOT CUTs. No two ways about it.
FIFY
This was true even before the recession.
| 82 |
Targetpractice Mon, Aug 8, 2011 11:40:12am |
re: #79 Varek Raith
Congrats TPGOP, you’ve damaged the economy and our credit outstandingly well.
They’d take a bow, but they’re too busy trying to assert that S&P’s reasoning for the downgrade was solely based upon the debt, which they seem to believe was accumulated in the last 2 years alone.
| 83 |
Achilles Tang Mon, Aug 8, 2011 11:40:26am |
Dear Congressman,
Congratulations on the TGOP and its sponsors getting 98% of what it wanted last week. I suppose the 2% it missed was a full scale default, not that it matters much anymore.
| 84 |
Amory Blaine Mon, Aug 8, 2011 11:41:28am |
Asking the TeaBaggers to play nice isn’t working.
| 85 |
Kragar Mon, Aug 8, 2011 11:42:04am |
re: #83 Naso Tang
Dear Congressman,
Congratulations on the TGOP and its sponsors getting 98% of what it wanted last week. I suppose the 2% it missed was a full scale default, not that it matters much anymore.
“The operation was a success, but the patient still died.”
| 87 |
Gus Mon, Aug 8, 2011 11:42:22am |
re: #79 Varek Raith
Congrats TPGOP, you’ve damaged the economy and our credit outstandingly well.
Keep in mind thought that rank and file or establishment Republicans have also opposed allowing the Bush tax cuts to expire (for the rich). Now, as much as I would like to agree with the overall sentiment here I don’t think that’s going to stick. And if I may put on my cynical hat here for a quick moment. Or perhaps a pessimistic view. In a nutshell, Obama is still captain of the ship. Much the same as Bush “owned” the Meltdown of 2008 Obama will be seen as “owning” this current meltdown and the S&P downgrade. It doesn’t matter what those below the executive branch might have done. The executive branch always gets the blame.
| 88 |
Charleston Chew Mon, Aug 8, 2011 11:45:00am |
re: #85 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
“The operation was a success, but the patient still died.”
As long as killing the patient hurts Obama, the operation can be considered a success.
The GOP has been open with their strategy for reelection since 2008 — poison American then frame the President for murder (metaphorically speaking).
| 89 |
Achilles Tang Mon, Aug 8, 2011 11:45:22am |
re: #85 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
“The operation was a success, but the patient still died.”
I’ve been sending similar polite (no sarc tags) since a couple of weeks ago. The boiler plate replies I get are funny. I wonder what it takes to get on their ignore list.
| 90 |
Bulworth Mon, Aug 8, 2011 11:45:46am |
Not to over-react about this or anything, but I’m already not looking forward to whatever the Perry/Rubio administration has in store for us.
| 91 |
engineer cat Mon, Aug 8, 2011 11:46:08am |
fox news webfront
Dems’ Answer: Shoot the Messenger?
As Wall Street reels from the S&P’s downgrade of America’s debt, Democrats — including the Obama administration — are laying blame at the feet of the Tea Party.
POWER PLAY: Downgrade Doesn’t Matter Unless It’s the Tea Party’s Fault, White House Says
“i’m not guilty!!! i swear i’m not guilty!!!!”
| 92 |
iossarian Mon, Aug 8, 2011 11:46:39am |
re: #90 Bulworth
Not to over-react about this or anything, but I’m already not looking forward to whatever the Perry/Rubio administration has in store for us.
Oh, I wouldn’t worry too much. As long as you’re white straight and rich, you’ll be fine.
It also helps to be male, in the longer term.
| 93 |
Gus Mon, Aug 8, 2011 11:47:13am |
re: #90 Bulworth
Not to over-react about this or anything, but I’m already not looking forward to whatever the Perry/Rubio administration has in store for us.
I’ll be an Australia. Would be nice if I had that option.
| 94 |
Charleston Chew Mon, Aug 8, 2011 11:47:42am |
re: #90 Bulworth
Not to over-react about this or anything, but I’m already not looking forward to whatever the Perry/Rubio administration has in store for us.
How about, “We’ve decided to execute every 10th American because, let’s face it, some of those people have got to be guilty of something.”
| 95 |
lawhawk Mon, Aug 8, 2011 11:47:57am |
[Link: curiouscapitalist.blogs.time.com…]
Here’s the other laughable irony: Congress had a chance to rein in the ratings agencies but demurred. Even though the statutory authority that gave S&P, Moody’s and Fitch an oligopoly on ratings was complicit in their contribution to the crisis, Congress nevertheless refused to remove the NRSRO status. The solons bought the idea that smaller agencies would be crushed if an unfettered free market were imposed on the ratings industry. Funny, that didn’t happen in the airline industry when it was deregulated. And by the way, can you name the fourth, fifth or sixth largest ratings agency? Republicans, heeding the deregulation call of their banking clients (whose demands for deregulation more than a decade ago, blessed by the Clinton Administration, led us down the path to the crisis), bent over backward to defang the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau, which was central to the Dodd-Frank bill, whose hilarious formal name is the Dodd-Frank Wall Street Reform and Consumer Protection Act. Wall Street, having blown trillions during the crisis, demanded not to be hampered by either reform or consumer protection as it recovered from the crisis. Why should the ratings agencies be so encumbered?
So here’s our reward, America: higher costs for our mortgages and higher costs for the federal, state and local governments to borrow. As Fareed Zakaria points out in TIME’s Aug. 15 cover story, a jump of a single percentage point in the interest rate the federal government pays will more than wipe out the savings anticipated by the debt deal. Nice work, that. And we owe it all to an ethically and intellectually suspect ratings agency. (S&P even made a $2.1 trillion error in its calculations but dismissed it as “nonmaterial.”)
Yet it has occurred to me that maybe S&P has a point. After all, this is a Congress that let the banking industry run amok, bailed it out with access to trillions of dollars of credit and has since done precious little to ensure that the process won’t be repeated. Nor would Congress reform the ratings industry, which played a vital role in the crisis. Nor did it agree to a deal worked out between Obama and House Speaker John Boehner that would have preserved the AAA rating. If our Congress is that dumb, perhaps we deserved the downgrade.
| 96 |
Lidane Mon, Aug 8, 2011 11:48:01am |
re: #92 iossarian
White, straight, rich, Christian male landowners — the only people who matter to the GOP. As always.
| 97 |
califleftyb Mon, Aug 8, 2011 11:48:49am |
Real politics requires us to think the unthinkable. For all his many strengths and suitability as President, the fact is Obama has lost the faith of the independent voters big, and with little over a year to go to the next election there is precious little time to recover them. Nouriel Roubini says a double dip recession is unavoidable and we should be working to avoid a full blown depression. Can you imagine what that will mean for America? If true, give me the scenario that Barack Obama is re-elected for a second term?
So is our only course of action is to stay the course and continue to mouth platitudes that will only lead to the debacle of handing over the White House to any of the crack-pot Republicans? Is it time to ask if we owe it to ourselves and to America to find a Democratic candidate that is prepared to recapture the independents who will flock to a candidate that offers a rational alternative? Does loyalty to Barack Obama trump a higher responsibility to save the country from the madness of a Republican Administration? I think we are standing on the precipice.
| 98 |
Bulworth Mon, Aug 8, 2011 11:49:10am |
re: #92 iossarian
Oh, I wouldn’t worry too much. As long as you’re white straight and rich, you’ll be fine.
It also helps to be male, in the longer term.
I am, but unfortunately it isn’t me, or at least it isn’t my demographic, that I’m most concerned about.
| 99 |
Achilles Tang Mon, Aug 8, 2011 11:49:15am |
re: #94 Charleston Chew
How about, “We’ve decided to execute every 10th American because, let’s face it, some of those people have got to be guilty of something.”
How about just taking all the first born children?
| 100 |
Targetpractice Mon, Aug 8, 2011 11:49:25am |
re: #91 engineer dog
fox news webfront
Dems’ Answer: Shoot the Messenger?
As Wall Street reels from the S&P’s downgrade of America’s debt, Democrats — including the Obama administration — are laying blame at the feet of the Tea Party.
POWER PLAY: Downgrade Doesn’t Matter Unless It’s the Tea Party’s Fault, White House Says“i’m not guilty!!! i swear i’m not guilty!!!”
Like I said above, the Tea Party’s argument is that S&P’s reasoning for the downgrade was entirely due to the debt, which they blame Obama for because an admission that the last guy in office was the one who ran up the country’s credit card isn’t likely. And those who are acknowledging the part about the political circus over the debt ceiling are instead going with the argument that Obama didn’t take the warnings “seriously” and thus walked away from “perfectly good deals” just to push for “job-killing taxes.”
| 103 |
Amory Blaine Mon, Aug 8, 2011 11:50:38am |
re: #100 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds
Like I said above, the Tea Party’s argument is that S&P’s reasoning for the downgrade was entirely due to the debt, which they blame Obama for because an admission that the last guy in office was the one who ran up the country’s credit card isn’t likely. And those who are acknowledging the part about the political circus over the debt ceiling are instead going with the argument that Obama didn’t take the warnings “seriously” and thus walked away from “perfectly good deals” just to push for “job-killing taxes.”
That stuff writes itself don’t it. ;)
| 104 |
Bulworth Mon, Aug 8, 2011 11:50:44am |
the fact is Obama has lost the faith of the independent voters big
What do you think the cause of that was?
| 106 |
Charleston Chew Mon, Aug 8, 2011 11:51:11am |
re: #96 Lidane
White, straight, rich, Christian male landowners — the only people who matter to the GOP. As always.
Hey, it’s an inclusive, big-tent party. They’ll settle for 4 out of 6.
| 107 |
iossarian Mon, Aug 8, 2011 11:51:47am |
re: #98 Bulworth
I am, but unfortunately it isn’t me, or at least it isn’t my demographic, that I’m most concerned about.
Well, of course. Which just goes to show that the whole “identity politics eleventy” schtick is yet more projection from the foaming-at-the-mouth hordes.
| 108 |
Targetpractice Mon, Aug 8, 2011 11:52:15am |
re: #97 califleftyb
Real politics requires us to think the unthinkable. For all his many strengths and suitability as President, the fact is Obama has lost the faith of the independent voters big, and with little over a year to go to the next election there is precious little time to recover them. Nouriel Roubini says a double dip recession is unavoidable and we should be working to avoid a full blown depression. Can you imagine what that will mean for America? If true, give me the scenario that Barack Obama is re-elected for a second term?
So is our only course of action is to stay the course and continue to mouth platitudes that will only lead to the debacle of handing over the White House to any of the crack-pot Republicans? Is it time to ask if we owe it to ourselves and to America to find a Democratic candidate that is prepared to recapture the independents who will flock to a candidate that offers a rational alternative? Does loyalty to Barack Obama trump a higher responsibility to save the country from the madness of a Republican Administration? I think we are standing on the precipice.
So losing wouldn’t be bad enough, you want to hand the presidency to the GOP on a silver platter? No dice.
| 109 |
Gus Mon, Aug 8, 2011 11:52:32am |
If someone is driving a car and the backseat passenger screams, “look out for that dog in the middle of the street!” and he drives into a line of parked cars the driver will get the ticket not the passenger.
| 110 |
Varek Raith Mon, Aug 8, 2011 11:52:33am |
Sorry, TPGOP.
You can’t just walk away from your responsibility of this downgrade like it wasn’t your fault.
| 111 |
Interesting Times Mon, Aug 8, 2011 11:52:39am |
re: #101 b_sharp
My condolences, my American friends.
I echo the sentiment :( But thanks to our own teabagger-wannabe prime minister, we may find ourselves in the same boat soon enough. Did you hear about this?
| 112 |
Lidane Mon, Aug 8, 2011 11:52:40am |
re: #97 califleftyb
Wait, so having fanatical opponents who refuse every conceivable compromise and who bring us to the edge of default for no goddamn reason at all except political brinkmanship tends to piss the voters off and hurts the President?
Who could have predicted that?
///
| 113 |
(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Mon, Aug 8, 2011 11:53:04am |
| 114 |
Charleston Chew Mon, Aug 8, 2011 11:53:20am |
re: #95 lawhawk
It’s like S&P is saying, “Clearly, anyone who would give S&P so much power is a credit risk.”
| 115 |
Targetpractice Mon, Aug 8, 2011 11:54:30am |
re: #110 Varek Raith
Sorry, TPGOP.
You can’t just walk away from your responsibility of this downgrade like it wasn’t your fault.
Didn’t we say the same thing back in ‘09, only it was telling them that there wasn’t any way they were going to walk off the stink of the Bush years?
| 116 |
Idle Drifter Mon, Aug 8, 2011 11:54:38am |
| 117 |
Feline Fearless Leader Mon, Aug 8, 2011 11:55:32am |
Interesting. I just got an email concerning my financial accounts. The service company (who will remain nameless for now) is holding a special conference call tomorrow night for their clients concerning the debt rating downgrade and recent market developments. This will include their current Chief Investment Strategist answering client questions.
This will be worth listening in on simply to get a feel how at least one group of investors is reacting to all this.
| 118 |
Achilles Tang Mon, Aug 8, 2011 11:55:34am |
re: #97 califleftyb
If true, give me the scenario that Barack Obama is re-elected for a second term?
Short of a third party, what makes you think independent voters will choose the Tea Party over Obama. My impression is that independents are not simply dumbass undecideds.
| 119 |
iossarian Mon, Aug 8, 2011 11:55:35am |
re: #110 Varek Raith
Sorry, TPGOP.
You can’t just walk away from your responsibility of this downgrade like it wasn’t your fault.
They can and they will. Who’s going to hold them to it? Fox?
| 120 |
engineer cat Mon, Aug 8, 2011 11:56:26am |
re: #100 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds
Like I said above, the Tea Party’s argument is that S&P’s reasoning for the downgrade was entirely due to the debt, which they blame Obama for because an admission that the last guy in office was the one who ran up the country’s credit card isn’t likely. And those who are acknowledging the part about the political circus over the debt ceiling are instead going with the argument that Obama didn’t take the warnings “seriously” and thus walked away from “perfectly good deals” just to push for “job-killing taxes.”
apparently it wouldn’t do for them to actually read the concluding paragraph of s&p’s report about why it issued the downgrade:
The outlook on the long-term rating is negative. As our downside alternate fiscal scenario illustrates, a higher public debt trajectory than we currently assume could lead us to lower the long-term rating again. On the other hand, as our upside scenario highlights, if the recommendations of the Congressional Joint Select Committee on Deficit Reduction—independently or coupled with other initiatives, such as the lapsing of the 2001 and 2003 tax cuts for high earners—lead to fiscal consolidation measures beyond the minimum mandated, and we believe they are likely to slow the deterioration of the government’s
debt dynamics, the long-term rating could stabilize at ‘AA+’.
[Link: msnbcmedia.msn.com…]
s&p recommends considering raising taxes as a major part of it’s suggested solution several times in the report, but NAH NAH NAH I CAN’T HEAR YOU
| 121 |
Targetpractice Mon, Aug 8, 2011 11:56:27am |
I’m sorry, but anybody who says that the key to defeating the GOP next year is primarying Obama, with the aim at either scaring him into tacking hard to the left or replacing him on the ticket with a hard-left candidate, is not being serious. If they are, then they need to seek professional help, because that’s a level of insanity that’s dangerous out in the general public.
| 123 |
Bulworth Mon, Aug 8, 2011 11:56:38am |
As Wall Street reels from the S&P’s downgrade of America’s debt
Ah, so that’s the street Faux is most concerned about. Main Street, not so much.
| 125 |
Varek Raith Mon, Aug 8, 2011 11:57:18am |
re: #115 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds
Didn’t we say the same thing back in ‘09, only it was telling them that there wasn’t any way they were going to walk off the stink of the Bush years?
re: #119 iossarian
They can and they will. Who’s going to hold them to it? Fox?
Forgive my optimism.
I’m trying to be not angry at the moment.
:)
| 126 |
Lidane Mon, Aug 8, 2011 11:57:53am |
re: #110 Varek Raith
Sorry, TPGOP.
You can’t just walk away from your responsibility of this downgrade like it wasn’t your fault.
Please. The GOP has never, ever shown any personal responsibility for a goddamn thing. It’s always someone else’s fault. This is no different.
Just watch. Fox News, talk radio, and the rest of the right wing howler monkeys will disclaim all responsibility for anything and everything, just like they always do.
| 127 |
b_sharp Mon, Aug 8, 2011 11:57:59am |
re: #111 publicityStunted
I echo the sentiment :( But thanks to our own teabagger-wannabe prime minister, we may find ourselves in the same boat soon enough. Did you hear about this?
This is the first I’ve heard of it. Harper’s true colours are finally getting exposure.
And I was called nuts for bitching about Harper’s hidden agenda.
| 128 |
Idle Drifter Mon, Aug 8, 2011 11:58:17am |
| 129 |
Amory Blaine Mon, Aug 8, 2011 11:59:42am |
re: #126 Lidane
Please. The GOP has never, ever shown any personal responsibility for a goddamn thing. It’s always someone else’s fault. This is no different.
Just watch. Fox News, talk radio, and the rest of the right wing howler monkeys will disclaim all responsibility for anything and everything, just like they always do.
The right wing propaganda will be thick through the night here in WI for preparation for the vote tomorrow. Thank you President Barack Obama for giving them a whole 24 hour cycle to attack democrats with.
| 130 |
Varek Raith Mon, Aug 8, 2011 11:59:45am |
re: #111 publicityStunted
I echo the sentiment :( But thanks to our own teabagger-wannabe prime minister, we may find ourselves in the same boat soon enough. Did you hear about this?
Wow.
Small government!
/
| 131 |
Charleston Chew Mon, Aug 8, 2011 11:59:57am |
re: #120 engineer dog
apparently it wouldn’t do for them to actually read the concluding paragraph of s&p’s report about why it issued the downgrade:
s&p recommends considering raising taxes as a major part of it’s suggested solution several times in the report, but NAH NAH NAH I CAN’T HEAR YOU
S&P is a bunch of anti-business socialist hippies!
| 132 |
Bulworth Mon, Aug 8, 2011 12:00:02pm |
re: #128 Idle Drifter
I miss Mackinac Island. I haven’t been there in years.
Very pretty area. Passed through there on vacation when i was a teenager. Would love to see it again.
| 133 |
(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Mon, Aug 8, 2011 12:00:51pm |
re: #124 Gus 802
10,912.55
-532.06 (-4.65%)
Looks like the DJI is going back to where it was last year.
| 134 |
engineer cat Mon, Aug 8, 2011 12:01:03pm |
dear wall street and banksters,
i would like to have an economy just based on working and buying and goods and services. you can take your gambling and shove it up your ass.
best regards,
e. dog, esq
| 135 |
Targetpractice Mon, Aug 8, 2011 12:01:51pm |
re: #120 engineer dog
apparently it wouldn’t do for them to actually read the concluding paragraph of s&p’s report about why it issued the downgrade:
The outlook on the long-term rating is negative. As our downside alternate fiscal scenario illustrates, a higher public debt trajectory than we currently assume could lead us to lower the long-term rating again. On the other hand, as our upside scenario highlights, if the recommendations of the Congressional Joint Select Committee on Deficit Reduction—independently or coupled with other initiatives, such as the lapsing of the 2001 and 2003 tax cuts for high earners—lead to fiscal consolidation measures beyond the minimum mandated, and we believe they are likely to slow the deterioration of the government’s
debt dynamics, the long-term rating could stabilize at ‘AA+’.[Link: msnbcmedia.msn.com…]
s&p recommends considering raising taxes as a major part of it’s suggested solution several times in the report, but NAH NAH NAH I CAN’T HEAR YOU
See, that’s just it. They want to hold the downgrade over Obama’s head, as though he’s entirely to blame for it. Yet, at the same time, they’ve got the monkey on their back is the Ryan Plan. What did the Ryan Plan call for? Cutting taxes even farther, with the eradication of any and all corporate taxes in exchange for a VAT. And, on top of that, it would add $6 trillion to the debt within the next decade.
Any Tea Partier who tells you that they are “serious” about our debt, but supports the Ryan Plan at the same time, is either pants-on-head retarded or lying through his fraking teeth.
| 136 |
Stormageddon, Dark Lord of All Mon, Aug 8, 2011 12:03:06pm |
The irony is that despite the downgrade, US bonds are probably the safest bet possible. (hence the yields dropping as investors flock to safe havens)
Can you name a safer place for your money than US Bonds?
| 138 |
Amory Blaine Mon, Aug 8, 2011 12:03:43pm |
re: #136 bloodstar
The irony is that despite the downgrade, US bonds are probably the safest bet possible. (hence the yields dropping as investors flock to safe havens)
Can you name a safer place for your money than US Bonds?
Enron? Aren’t the AAA S&P rated?
| 139 |
(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Mon, Aug 8, 2011 12:03:44pm |
| 140 |
Varek Raith Mon, Aug 8, 2011 12:04:09pm |
re: #136 bloodstar
The irony is that despite the downgrade, US bonds are probably the safest bet possible. (hence the yields dropping as investors flock to safe havens)
Can you name a safer place for your money than US Bonds?
My mattress?
| 141 |
blueraven Mon, Aug 8, 2011 12:04:32pm |
re: #121 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds
I’m sorry, but anybody who says that the key to defeating the GOP next year is primarying Obama, with the aim at either scaring him into tacking hard to the left or replacing him on the ticket with a hard-left candidate, is not being serious. If they are, then they need to seek professional help, because that’s a level of insanity that’s dangerous out in the general public.
Its the leftist version of the tea party talking that crap.
| 142 |
Targetpractice Mon, Aug 8, 2011 12:04:47pm |
| 144 |
b_sharp Mon, Aug 8, 2011 12:04:53pm |
re: #27 Obdicut
Weiner was the only Democrat who made for good television. Unfortunately, he took that a little too far.
(It’s probably safe for this now)
You mean Weiner’s wiener wasn’t a winner?
| 145 |
Lidane Mon, Aug 8, 2011 12:05:03pm |
re: #131 Charleston Chew
S&P is a bunch of anti-business socialist hippies!
They’re also in thrall to the Muslim Brotherhood! Creeping Sharia!
/Frank Gaffney
| 146 |
RogueOne Mon, Aug 8, 2011 12:05:09pm |
re: #135 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds
So you would sign on to a package that kept the ryan cuts and and additional $6 trillion in cuts/revenue? Keeping in mind that the Bush cuts cost roughly $1.3 trillion over a decade? If you cancelled the tax cuts how would you come up with the extra $4.5 trillion?
| 147 |
Feline Fearless Leader Mon, Aug 8, 2011 12:05:18pm |
re: #137 Varek Raith
That’s it!
I’m moving to Pluto.
Got a battlestation hiding in orbit around it, do you?
| 148 |
(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Mon, Aug 8, 2011 12:05:46pm |
re: #141 blueraven
Its the leftist version of the tea party talking that crap.
We won’t see it in 2012, but I won’t be surprised if a left-wing “Tea Party” comes around after that election.
| 149 |
Amory Blaine Mon, Aug 8, 2011 12:05:58pm |
I’ve been watching enough prison cable shows to know where to hide my money.
| 150 |
califleftyb Mon, Aug 8, 2011 12:06:01pm |
re: #102 Obdicut
Who knows. It certainly won’t be someone from the left wing of the party, but more like one of the blue dogs. Of course, some “progressive” democrats won’t support anyone who doesn’t pass the ideological purity test, but we can’t call these people “tea-party” ‘cause that’s been taken.
| 151 |
Lidane Mon, Aug 8, 2011 12:06:04pm |
re: #141 blueraven
Its the leftist version of the tea party talking that crap.
Pretty much. The only people seriously talking about offering a primary opponent to Obama are the far left nutbags who’d lose anyway.
| 152 |
Varek Raith Mon, Aug 8, 2011 12:06:11pm |
re: #147 oaktree
Got a battlestation hiding in orbit around it, do you?
Perhaps.
It’s taking all my will power not to launch a stellar converter strike at you all.
/
| 153 |
Targetpractice Mon, Aug 8, 2011 12:06:20pm |
re: #146 RogueOne
So you would sign on to a package that kept the ryan cuts and and additional $6 trillion in cuts/revenue? Keeping in mind that the Bush cuts cost roughly $1.3 trillion over a decade? If you cancelled the tax cuts how would you come up with the extra $4.5 trillion?
Bwah? I’m railing against the Ryan Plan, not for it. Think something got lost in the translation.
| 154 |
Interesting Times Mon, Aug 8, 2011 12:06:31pm |
re: #127 b_sharp
This is the first I’ve heard of it. Harper’s true colours are finally getting exposure.
And I was called nuts for bitching about Harper’s hidden agenda.
I’m thinking of paging it. Wasn’t sure how much interest a Canadian issue would generate here, but it’s such an egregious violation of free speech and example of government overreach that it needs to be exposed. Plus, the screwed-over artist in question is now looking at other ways to raise funding.
| 155 |
Gus Mon, Aug 8, 2011 12:06:47pm |
Obama missed his chance at taking his case to the American people today. Instead he chose to take his case during the middle of the day while most Americans are either working, running errands, or engaged in other day time tasks. For the most part it played for an audience of housewives, the unemployed, and retired people.
Working people and those busy during the day will not have heard his message today and instead will hear his message as filtered through the evening news (i.e. soundbites) or through those of the evening pundits. The result of making his speech in mid-afternoon will restult in right wing talking points similar to “Obama makes speech and the market crashes.” Thus he was playing into the Republican’s hands while hoping for the best (if this really was the case) in seeing a positive market response to his speech. This was not the case.
The DOW is currently settling at below 500. The American people will come home tonight and hear that Obama made a speech and the market fell — for the most part. The evening news will not utter a word about the Tea Party. And this is if they even watch the news since most Americans avoid the news like the plague.
He should have instead made a speech (or announcement) about the recent loses Afghanistan this afternoon and saved this speech for the evening hours. At the same time, he should have hammered home any blame that falls on the Republican Party noted by the S&P press release from last Friday.
| 156 |
Targetpractice Mon, Aug 8, 2011 12:06:55pm |
re: #150 califleftyb
Who knows. It certainly won’t be someone from the left wing of the party, but more like one of the blue dogs. Of course, some “progressive” democrats won’t support anyone who doesn’t pass the ideological purity test, but we can’t call these people “tea-party” ‘cause that’s been taken.
You got someone in mind, or just talking out your ass?
| 157 |
Charleston Chew Mon, Aug 8, 2011 12:07:30pm |
| 158 |
RogueOne Mon, Aug 8, 2011 12:07:35pm |
re: #153 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds
Bwah? I’m railing against the Ryan Plan, not for it. Think something got lost in the translation.
I thought you said it didn’t go far enough, that it raised the debt level by $6 trillion.
For what it’s worth, if the senate had passed the ryan plan we wouldn’t have had a downgrade. Just saying.
| 159 |
Political Atheist Mon, Aug 8, 2011 12:07:47pm |
re: #151 Lidane
Pretty much. The only people seriously talking about offering a primary opponent to Obama are the far left nutbags who’d lose anyway.
I still thing Obama might send Biden home to spend some time with the family and tap Hilary for VP to boost him with his base. Sets up Hilary for 2016.
| 160 |
Idle Drifter Mon, Aug 8, 2011 12:07:57pm |
| 161 |
mr.fusion Mon, Aug 8, 2011 12:07:57pm |
re: #146 RogueOne
So you would sign on to a package that kept the ryan cuts and and additional $6 trillion in cuts/revenue? Keeping in mind that the Bush cuts cost roughly $1.3 trillion over a decade? If you cancelled the tax cuts how would you come up with the extra $4.5 trillion?
How about growth? How about we start making things again? How about a massive infrastructure/high speed rail project that will put money in the pockets of the middle class/blue collar workers that will spend it and put it back into the economy?
How about we start talking seriously about ending the war on drugs? Revamping the Justice System? Legalizing online gambling? Selling off some of our gold reserves?
| 162 |
Amory Blaine Mon, Aug 8, 2011 12:08:00pm |
| 163 |
Feline Fearless Leader Mon, Aug 8, 2011 12:08:09pm |
re: #152 Varek Raith
Perhaps.
It’s taking all my will power not to launch a stellar converter strike at you all.
/
Waste of a perfectly good star and solar system if you did that. Perhaps something more subtle like a series of kinetic weapon strikes?
//
| 164 |
lawhawk Mon, Aug 8, 2011 12:08:44pm |
re: #136 bloodstar
There’s 15 countries with AAA ratings. And for what it’s worth, China, which has saying that the US should be knocked off its pedestal, has a rating two levels lower than that of the US:
Meanwhile, China — the world’s second largest economy — is rated two notches below the United States, at AA-.Greece — the lowest rated country in the world — is forecast to see its debt well exceed the size of its economy, at 149% the size of its GDP in 2015
And I’d say that the Chinese situation is not nearly as clear cut since they don’t have anything like the open books that are seen in the West.
| 165 |
Varek Raith Mon, Aug 8, 2011 12:08:51pm |
re: #163 oaktree
Waste of a perfectly good star and solar system if you did that. Perhaps something more subtle like a series of kinetic weapon strikes?
//
I don’t do subtle.
;)
| 166 |
Feline Fearless Leader Mon, Aug 8, 2011 12:09:11pm |
re: #161 mr.fusion
How about growth? How about we start making things again? How about a massive infrastructure/high speed rail project that will put money in the pockets of the middle class/blue collar workers that will spend it and put it back into the economy?
How about we start talking seriously about ending the war on drugs? Revamping the Justice System? Legalizing online gambling? Selling off some of our gold reserves?
You’ve been eating banana peels again, haven’t you? You know what the doctor said about that…
/
| 167 |
RogueOne Mon, Aug 8, 2011 12:09:18pm |
re: #161 mr.fusion
How about growth? How about we start making things again? How about a massive infrastructure/high speed rail project that will put money in the pockets of the middle class/blue collar workers that will spend it and put it back into the economy?
How about we start talking seriously about ending the war on drugs? Revamping the Justice System? Legalizing online gambling? Selling off some of our gold reserves?
I’m all for all of those but over the last 3 years the federal budget has increased by a trillion dollars. How do you plan on growing the economy fast enough to compensate?
| 168 |
Political Atheist Mon, Aug 8, 2011 12:09:25pm |
re: #161 mr.fusion
How about growth? How about we start making things again? How about a massive infrastructure/high speed rail project that will put money in the pockets of the middle class/blue collar workers that will spend it and put it back into the economy?
How about we start talking seriously about ending the war on drugs? Revamping the Justice System? Legalizing online gambling? Selling off some of our gold reserves?
Just maybe its easier to bring some jobs home than make new ones. Bring home the troops! JOBS!
| 169 |
Targetpractice Mon, Aug 8, 2011 12:09:35pm |
re: #158 RogueOne
I thought you said it didn’t go far enough, that it raised the debt level by $6 trillion.
For what it’s worth, if the senate had passed the ryan plan we wouldn’t have had a downgrade. Just saying.
S&P was looking for debt cuts of around $4 trillion, which was the target goal of the grand plan that the GOP walked away from because there was no way Boehner was going to be able to sell tax increases to the Tea Party caucus. So, how do you figure that a plan that added $6 trillion to the debt within the next decade would have avoided a downgrade?
| 170 |
Killgore Trout Mon, Aug 8, 2011 12:10:02pm |
re: #156 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds
You got someone in mind, or just talking out your ass?
Ron Paul!
| 171 |
jamesfirecat Mon, Aug 8, 2011 12:10:08pm |
re: #97 califleftyb
Real politics requires us to think the unthinkable. For all his many strengths and suitability as President, the fact is Obama has lost the faith of the independent voters big, and with little over a year to go to the next election there is precious little time to recover them. Nouriel Roubini says a double dip recession is unavoidable and we should be working to avoid a full blown depression. Can you imagine what that will mean for America? If true, give me the scenario that Barack Obama is re-elected for a second term?
So is our only course of action is to stay the course and continue to mouth platitudes that will only lead to the debacle of handing over the White House to any of the crack-pot Republicans? Is it time to ask if we owe it to ourselves and to America to find a Democratic candidate that is prepared to recapture the independents who will flock to a candidate that offers a rational alternative? Does loyalty to Barack Obama trump a higher responsibility to save the country from the madness of a Republican Administration? I think we are standing on the precipice.
You want a scenario where Obama wins re-election do you?
Take a look…
[Link: www.realclearpolitics.com…]
Only Mitt Romney is ahead of Obama and that’s only one poll, (and its Rasmussen who if memory serves always lean conservative/Republican).
The current crop of Republicans are such f*** ups that even with a difficult economy the just how crazy the Republican base has become seems to insure Obama will win.
No reason to start a fracticidal primary against him, save the our money the general election.
| 172 |
b_sharp Mon, Aug 8, 2011 12:10:10pm |
re: #167 RogueOne
I’m all for all of those but over the last 3 years the federal budget has increased by a trillion dollars. How do you plan on growing the economy fast enough to compensate?
Tax illegal immigrants.
| 173 |
Lidane Mon, Aug 8, 2011 12:11:11pm |
re: #159 Rightwingconspirator
I still thing Obama might send Biden home to spend some time with the family and tap Hilary for VP to boost him with his base. Sets up Hilary for 2016.
I doubt it. Biden’s not going anywhere, because getting rid of his VP would weaken Obama further. Not going to happen unless Biden has a massive health crisis between now and then.
Also, Hillary will be 69 years old in 2016. Match her against a younger Republican and she’ll lose.
| 174 |
Targetpractice Mon, Aug 8, 2011 12:11:16pm |
| 175 |
Varek Raith Mon, Aug 8, 2011 12:11:25pm |
Report: Rick Perry To Announce Presidential Run Saturday
Oh man, crazy gets crazier.
| 176 |
jamesfirecat Mon, Aug 8, 2011 12:11:27pm |
re: #159 Rightwingconspirator
I still thing Obama might send Biden home to spend some time with the family and tap Hilary for VP to boost him with his base. Sets up Hilary for 2016.
If he does I’m out $5 me and Wrench Wench have a bet that baring noticeable health problems Obama will keep Biden.
Besides its not like Hilary needs any more setting up, if she wants to run in 2016 who is going to stop her? John Edwards was the only other major democrat in the 2012 race and we all know what happened to him….
| 177 |
Bulworth Mon, Aug 8, 2011 12:11:52pm |
re: #169 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds
S&P was looking for debt cuts of around $4 trillion, which was the target goal of the grand plan that the GOP walked away from because there was no way Boehner was going to be able to sell tax increases to the Tea Party caucus. So, how do you figure that a plan that added $6 trillion to the debt within the next decade would have avoided a downgrade?
If I had to choose between Ryan’s insane budget and an S&P downgrade, I’d take the downgrade.
| 178 |
Targetpractice Mon, Aug 8, 2011 12:12:43pm |
re: #175 Varek Raith
Report: Rick Perry To Announce Presidential Run Saturday
Oh man, crazy gets crazier.
So that makes…what? Three people now who God has said should run for the presidency?
You starting to get the impression that he’s just fraking with the GOP at this point?
| 179 |
goddamnedfrank Mon, Aug 8, 2011 12:13:03pm |
re: #158 RogueOne
I thought you said it didn’t go far enough, that it raised the debt level by $6 trillion.
For what it’s worth, if the senate had passed the ryan plan we wouldn’t have had a downgrade. Just saying.
You clearly didn’t read the S&P report. Any plan passed without revenue increases was never going to be considered serious.
| 180 |
Lidane Mon, Aug 8, 2011 12:13:08pm |
re: #175 Varek Raith
Report: Rick Perry To Announce Presidential Run Saturday
Oh man, crazy gets crazier.
Late announcement is late. He should have done it during his tent revival freakshow.
| 181 |
jamesfirecat Mon, Aug 8, 2011 12:13:14pm |
re: #178 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds
So that makes…what? Three people now who God has said should run for the presidency?
You starting to get the impression that he’s just fraking with the GOP at this point?
Hey, how many people did God tell the Middle East was their holy land to?
| 182 |
b_sharp Mon, Aug 8, 2011 12:13:19pm |
re: #177 Bulworth
If I had to choose between Ryan’s insane budget and an S&P downgrade, I’d take the downgrade.
The downgrade will not kill you and S&P is just one rating source.
| 183 |
Varek Raith Mon, Aug 8, 2011 12:13:24pm |
re: #178 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds
So that makes…what? Three people now who God has said should run for the presidency?
You starting to get the impression that he’s just fraking with the GOP at this point?
God be a trollin trollin trollin.
| 184 |
Stormageddon, Dark Lord of All Mon, Aug 8, 2011 12:13:55pm |
re: #164 lawhawk
There’s 15 countries with AAA ratings. And for what it’s worth, China, which has saying that the US should be knocked off its pedestal, has a rating two levels lower than that of the US:
And I’d say that the Chinese situation is not nearly as clear cut since they don’t have anything like the open books that are seen in the West.
A very valid point, How many of those countries are a part of the EU and tied to the Euro? Because I fully expect the EU to implode in the next 6 months.
You still have Australia, Canada, Singapore with AAA Credit Ratings outside of Europe, but beyond that… It’s damn grim out there.
| 185 |
iossarian Mon, Aug 8, 2011 12:14:07pm |
| 187 |
Feline Fearless Leader Mon, Aug 8, 2011 12:14:29pm |
re: #183 Varek Raith
God be a trollin trollin trollin.
Or playing with his ant farm by getting multiple queens going at once and vying for limited resources.
| 188 |
RogueOne Mon, Aug 8, 2011 12:14:41pm |
re: #169 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds
S&P was looking for debt cuts of around $4 trillion, which was the target goal of the grand plan that the GOP walked away from because there was no way Boehner was going to be able to sell tax increases to the Tea Party caucus. So, how do you figure that a plan that added $6 trillion to the debt within the next decade would have avoided a downgrade?
The ryan plan cut the deficit by $4.4 trillion which would have been enough to avoid the downgrade.
The republicans are not going to bend on taxes and they deserve to get slapped around for it but the dems are not going to bend on entitlements (which according to the S&P is the main driver of the debt) and they shouldn’t get a pass.
Let me repeat one thing. If you repealed all the Bush tax cuts the best you could hope for is bringing in $1.3 Trillion over the next decade. That isn’t even close to what is needed.
| 189 |
blueraven Mon, Aug 8, 2011 12:14:46pm |
re: #150 califleftyb
Who knows. It certainly won’t be someone from the left wing of the party, but more like one of the blue dogs. Of course, some “progressive” democrats won’t support anyone who doesn’t pass the ideological purity test, but we can’t call these people “tea-party” ‘cause that’s been taken.
Do you think Obama is too far to the left? Seriously?
| 190 |
Gus Mon, Aug 8, 2011 12:15:00pm |
re: #178 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds
So that makes…what? Three people now who God has said should run for the presidency?
You starting to get the impression that he’s just fraking with the GOP at this point?
Like I’ve said before. GOP is backwards. It should be POG…
Party of God
| 191 |
Lidane Mon, Aug 8, 2011 12:15:00pm |
re: #178 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds
You starting to get the impression that he’s just fraking with the GOP at this point?
| 192 |
Charleston Chew Mon, Aug 8, 2011 12:15:05pm |
re: #178 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds
So that makes…what? Three people now who God has said should run for the presidency?
You starting to get the impression that he’s just fraking with the GOP at this point?
For reasons they can’t figure out, just before they all hear God telling them to run, they hear him whispering, “Hey, Gabriel. Watch this.”
| 193 |
Feline Fearless Leader Mon, Aug 8, 2011 12:15:07pm |
re: #172 b_sharp
Tax illegal immigrants.
We’d spend too much money and effort identifying them to tax. Why not just invade and loot Canada?
/
| 194 |
b_sharp Mon, Aug 8, 2011 12:15:51pm |
re: #193 oaktree
We’d spend too much money and effort identifying them to tax. Why not just invade and loot Canada?
/
You’d freeze your balls off.
| 195 |
RogueOne Mon, Aug 8, 2011 12:15:54pm |
re: #173 Lidane
I doubt it. Biden’s not going anywhere, because getting rid of his VP would weaken Obama further. Not going to happen unless Biden has a massive health crisis between now and then.
Also, Hillary will be 69 years old in 2016. Match her against a younger Republican and she’ll lose.
Everyone always thinks changing the VP is the ticket to winning re-election. weird.
| 196 |
Vicious Babushka Mon, Aug 8, 2011 12:16:05pm |
re: #192 Charleston Chew
For reasons they can’t figure out, just before they all hear God telling them to run, they hear him whispering, “Hey, Gabriel. Watch this.”
Hold mah nectar an’ watch this!
| 197 |
allegro Mon, Aug 8, 2011 12:16:19pm |
re: #155 Gus 802
The DOW is currently settling at below 500.
CNN is showing it at 365.xx right now. Seems to be going back up… from down… or something.
| 198 |
Lidane Mon, Aug 8, 2011 12:16:26pm |
re: #189 blueraven
Do you think Obama is too far to the left? Seriously?
Anyone who thinks Obama is far left is a goddamn idiot. He’s not anywhere close to the far left. The guy’s a centrist.
| 199 |
Bulworth Mon, Aug 8, 2011 12:16:38pm |
re: #188 RogueOne
The ryan plan cut the deficit by $4.4 trillion which would have been enough to avoid the downgrade.
The republicans are not going to bend on taxes and they deserve to get slapped around for it but the dems are not going to bend on entitlements (which according to the S&P is the main driver of the debt) and they shouldn’t get a pass.
Let me repeat one thing. If you repealed all the Bush tax cuts the best you could hope for is bringing in $1.3 Trillion over the next decade. That isn’t even close to what is needed.
Where are you getting the $1.3 trillion number from? I’m pretty sure it’s wrong, but if you have a reputable source….
| 200 |
Feline Fearless Leader Mon, Aug 8, 2011 12:17:07pm |
re: #194 b_sharp
You’d freeze your balls off.
AGW to the rescue. This plan has been in the works for decades…
(And since I grew up in northern NY state opposite Cornwall ON the Canadian climate does not frighten me. Been there, lived that.)
| 201 |
Varek Raith Mon, Aug 8, 2011 12:17:19pm |
re: #187 oaktree
Or playing with his ant farm by getting multiple queens going at once and vying for limited resources.
Hah.
I did that once in science class in HS.
I got detention.
| 202 |
ProBosniaLiberal Mon, Aug 8, 2011 12:17:57pm |
re: #188 RogueOne
What is the Republican Obsession with screwing over the poor?
I don’t understand this, because they aren’t the ones who put us in this mess. In addition, when a government screws over the poor, bad things happen, like unrest.
You do remember the Russian Revolution, right?
| 203 |
Gus Mon, Aug 8, 2011 12:18:08pm |
re: #197 allegro
CNN is showing it at 365.xx right now. Seems to be going back up… from down… or something.
Looks like it. I’m seeing -373 now. It’ll readjust. Must have been the after lunch doldrums or something.
| 204 |
Varek Raith Mon, Aug 8, 2011 12:18:30pm |
re: #203 Gus 802
Looks like it. I’m seeing -373 now. It’ll readjust. Must have been the after lunch doldrums or something.
*BURP*
| 205 |
Targetpractice Mon, Aug 8, 2011 12:18:35pm |
re: #188 RogueOne
The ryan plan cut the deficit by $4.4 trillion which would have been enough to avoid the downgrade.
The republicans are not going to bend on taxes and they deserve to get slapped around for it but the dems are not going to bend on entitlements (which according to the S&P is the main driver of the debt) and they shouldn’t get a pass.
Let me repeat one thing. If you repealed all the Bush tax cuts the best you could hope for is bringing in $1.3 Trillion over the next decade. That isn’t even close to what is needed.
Cut the deficit by $4.4 trillion? Where you getting that number from, Heritage? If so, then you might want to also look at the fact that they’re predicting that the Ryan Plan would drive down unemployment to a level not seen since the Korean War and reap economic growth in excess of any historical recovery.
And the Bush Tax Cuts are only the start, not the end.
| 206 |
allegro Mon, Aug 8, 2011 12:18:57pm |
Heh, stopped sliding and looks to be going back up after Obama’s speech. Not saying it had anything to do with it of course….
| 207 |
RogueOne Mon, Aug 8, 2011 12:19:02pm |
re: #199 Bulworth
Where are you getting the $1.3 trillion number from? I’m pretty sure it’s wrong, but if you have a reputable source…
I’m not sure it’s accurate either but it’s the number the left uses so I go with it to further the argument:
[Link: thinkprogress.org…]
| 208 |
Bulworth Mon, Aug 8, 2011 12:19:08pm |
Ending the Bush tax cuts would bring in $3.6 trillion:
On Dec. 31, 2012, three weeks before the end of President Barack Obama’s current term in office, the Bush tax cuts expire. Income tax rates will return to their Clinton-era levels. That amounts to a $3.6 trillion tax increase over 10 years, three or four times the $800 billion to $1.2 trillion in revenue increases that Obama and Speaker John Boehner were kicking around. And all Democrats need to do to secure that deal is — nothing.
| 210 |
Varek Raith Mon, Aug 8, 2011 12:19:14pm |
re: #205 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds
Cut the deficit by $4.4 trillion? Where you getting that number from, Heritage? If so, then you might want to also look at the fact that they’re predicting that the Ryan Plan would drive down unemployment to a level not seen since the Korean War and reap economic growth in excess of any historical recovery.
And the Bush Tax Cuts are only the start, not the end.
2.8%.
Lol.
| 211 |
Lidane Mon, Aug 8, 2011 12:19:27pm |
re: #202 ProLifeLiberal
What is the Republican Obsession with screwing over the poor?
The GOP’s attitude on the poor in a nutshell: “Fuck you, I got mine.”
| 212 |
Varek Raith Mon, Aug 8, 2011 12:20:09pm |
re: #211 Lidane
The GOP’s attitude on the poor in a nutshell: “Fuck you, I got mine.”
We should go into business selling torches and pitchforks.
/
| 213 |
Targetpractice Mon, Aug 8, 2011 12:20:19pm |
re: #202 ProLifeLiberal
What is the Republican Obsession with screwing over the poor?
I don’t understand this, because they aren’t the ones who put us in this mess. In addition, when a government screws over the poor, bad things happen, like unrest.
You do remember the Russian Revolution, right?
I remember a lot of people with a lot of money getting put against the wall. ‘course, that tends to happen in every revolution that springs up from decades of the poor being driven further and further into the ground to expand the wealth of a slim portion of the overall population.
| 215 |
lawhawk Mon, Aug 8, 2011 12:20:34pm |
re: #197 allegro
It’s eased off the intraday lows. That’s probably people looking to buy bargains, some stocks probably got hit harder than they should have because of the downgrade or other factors so it created buying opportunities.
| 216 |
Idle Drifter Mon, Aug 8, 2011 12:20:34pm |
re: #193 oaktree
We’d spend too much money and effort identifying them to tax. Why not just invade and loot Canada?
/
I’d crap myself as that was the start of the whole Fallout Series. Followed by nuclear war with China over energy resources.
| 217 |
blueraven Mon, Aug 8, 2011 12:20:35pm |
re: #169 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds
S&P was looking for debt cuts of around $4 trillion, which was the target goal of the grand plan that the GOP walked away from because there was no way Boehner was going to be able to sell tax increases to the Tea Party caucus. So, how do you figure that a plan that added $6 trillion to the debt within the next decade would have avoided a downgrade?
Because! that’s why. Plus we wouldn’t have those job killing tax increases. We could even lower taxes since that has worked so well over the last ten years.
Also seniors would be paying much more for their medicare privatized old people insurance.
| 218 |
Gus Mon, Aug 8, 2011 12:20:50pm |
re: #211 Lidane
The GOP’s attitude on the poor in a nutshell: “Fuck you,
I got mineTHERE ARE NO POOR PEOPLE IN AMERICA.”
FTFY
//
| 219 |
Bulworth Mon, Aug 8, 2011 12:20:54pm |
re: #207 RogueOne
I’m not sure it’s accurate either but it’s the number the left uses so I go with it to further the argument:
[Link: thinkprogress.org…]
That was the 2001 tax cuts. 2003 brought additional tax cuts.
| 220 |
RogueOne Mon, Aug 8, 2011 12:21:17pm |
re: #202 ProLifeLiberal
What is the Republican Obsession with screwing over the poor?
I don’t understand this, because they aren’t the ones who put us in this mess. In addition, when a government screws over the poor, bad things happen, like unrest.
You do remember the Russian Revolution, right?
It isn’t about screwing over anyone. Our budget has increased almost 1/3 in 3 years. We’re now spending a trillion dollars more a year than we were in 2008 and running a $1.5 trillion/year deficit. We can’t afford it. That’s the whole argument.
| 221 |
Feline Fearless Leader Mon, Aug 8, 2011 12:21:22pm |
re: #212 Varek Raith
We should go into business selling torches and pitchforks.
/
Sounds like the next Third Party - Torch and Pitchfork!
| 222 |
iossarian Mon, Aug 8, 2011 12:21:25pm |
re: #207 RogueOne
I’m not sure it’s accurate either but it’s the number the left uses so I go with it to further the argument:
[Link: thinkprogress.org…]
I think the issue is that the $1.3T figure was in 2001.
The figure for ending them in 2011 (over the next decade or whatever) is presumably different.
| 223 |
Varek Raith Mon, Aug 8, 2011 12:22:24pm |
re: #221 oaktree
Sounds like the next Third Party - Torch and Pitchfork!
Our parties motto;
“Remember! Pillage then burn!”
Oh, wait. The TPGOP trademarked that.
Buggers.
| 224 |
Lidane Mon, Aug 8, 2011 12:22:27pm |
re: #220 RogueOne
Our budget has increased almost 1/3 in 3 years. We’re now spending a trillion dollars more a year than we were in 2008 and running a $1.5 trillion/year deficit. We can’t afford it. That’s the whole argument.
Fighting two wars while cutting taxes will do that.
| 225 |
garhighway Mon, Aug 8, 2011 12:23:39pm |
re: #90 Bulworth
Not to over-react about this or anything, but I’m already not looking forward to whatever the Perry/Rubio administration has in store for us.
Great hair?
| 226 |
Feline Fearless Leader Mon, Aug 8, 2011 12:24:04pm |
re: #223 Varek Raith
Our parties motto;
“Remember! Pillage then burn!”Oh, wait. The TPGOP trademarked that.
Buggers.
Tar, then Feather!
Tax, then Spend!
| 227 |
Varek Raith Mon, Aug 8, 2011 12:24:11pm |
re: #220 RogueOne
It isn’t about screwing over anyone. Our budget has increased almost 1/3 in 3 years. We’re now spending a trillion dollars more a year than we were in 2008 and running a $1.5 trillion/year deficit. We can’t afford it. That’s the whole argument.
And yet, the GOP guts programs that help the poor while fighting tooth and nail to keep corporate tax loopholes. Loopholes that allow many major corporations to have negative income taxes.
Funny, that.
| 228 |
Targetpractice Mon, Aug 8, 2011 12:24:13pm |
re: #224 Lidane
Fighting two wars while cutting taxes will do that.
Yeah, Bush has the rather dubious honor of being the first president to ever cut taxes during a time of war. Every one before him raised them to pay for the fighting.
| 229 |
Bulworth Mon, Aug 8, 2011 12:24:17pm |
re: #220 RogueOne
It isn’t about screwing over anyone. Our budget has increased almost 1/3 in 3 years. We’re now spending a trillion dollars more a year than we were in 2008 and running a $1.5 trillion/year deficit. We can’t afford it. That’s the whole argument.
The poor economy is driving the deficit. The stimulus is already spent. So wingnuts can’t claim that as the problem anymore. And beyond that, what extra spending, other than our wars, has there been?
And just to repeat, we had a balanced budget in 2000. We don’t now. One of the things we did after 2000 was cut taxes. And occupy a couple of foreign countries. The poor aren’t responsible for that.
| 230 |
Charleston Chew Mon, Aug 8, 2011 12:24:28pm |
re: #202 ProLifeLiberal
What is the Republican Obsession with screwing over the poor?
I don’t understand this, because they aren’t the ones who put us in this mess. In addition, when a government screws over the poor, bad things happen, like unrest.
You do remember the Russian Revolution, right?
And when the poor get a little money they spend it on stuff they need, which is why helping poor people is good for business.
GOP hates poor people because they need to believe that people can only be poor because they deserve it and likewise people are only affluent because they are such good people that God bestowed that money upon them as a reward.
They’re terrified of life’s true level of injustice. They can’t believe that people fortunes are a product of chance. They need the fantasy of a benevolent super-father figure controlling everything, and to admit that “shit happens” would destroy that fantasy.
| 231 |
Idle Drifter Mon, Aug 8, 2011 12:25:22pm |
| 232 |
RogueOne Mon, Aug 8, 2011 12:25:34pm |
re: #208 Bulworth
Ending the Bush tax cuts would bring in $3.6 trillion:
I think Klein is pulling numbers out of his ass:
Revisiting the cost of the Bush tax cuts
[Link: www.washingtonpost.com…]
When the tax cuts were passed, the nonpartisan Joint Committee on Taxation estimated how much they might reduce revenue: the 2001 tax cuts was pegged at $1.35 trillion over 10 years; the 2003 tax cut was set at $350 billion over 10 years.
Those estimates have never been updated, even as the economy and the budget have moved on.
Here are two ways to look at how the 2001 numbers might be different today……
| 233 |
engineer cat Mon, Aug 8, 2011 12:26:21pm |
re: #220 RogueOne
It isn’t about screwing over anyone. Our budget has increased almost 1/3 in 3 years. We’re now spending a trillion dollars more a year than we were in 2008 and running a $1.5 trillion/year deficit. We can’t afford it. That’s the whole argument.
we can’t afford the bush tax cuts for those making over $250/yr, we can’t afford 2 billion/yr in oil industry tax breaks and billions of dollars in other special big business tax breaks, and we can’t afford to not raise the cap on social security contributions
we can’t afford it
| 234 |
garhighway Mon, Aug 8, 2011 12:26:47pm |
re: #188 RogueOne
The ryan plan cut the deficit by $4.4 trillion which would have been enough to avoid the downgrade.
The republicans are not going to bend on taxes and they deserve to get slapped around for it but the dems are not going to bend on entitlements (which according to the S&P is the main driver of the debt) and they shouldn’t get a pass.
Let me repeat one thing. If you repealed all the Bush tax cuts the best you could hope for is bringing in $1.3 Trillion over the next decade. That isn’t even close to what is needed.
The Ryan Plan was magical thinking at its finest. Crazy economic assumptions, unexplained cuts and just bad math, it was the perfect example of how unserious the GOP has become.
| 235 |
Charleston Chew Mon, Aug 8, 2011 12:27:05pm |
re: #211 Lidane
The GOP’s attitude on the poor in a nutshell: “Fuck you, I got mine.”
And not just toward the poor. It’s their major political weakness that can be exploited. They are ready willing and able to turn on each other for their own gain. That’s why the conventional wisdom of the GOP being in lock-step is partly myth. I’m looking forward to the primary.
| 236 |
Feline Fearless Leader Mon, Aug 8, 2011 12:27:11pm |
re: #230 Charleston Chew
And when the poor get a little money they spend it on stuff they need, which is why helping poor people is good for business.
GOP hates poor people because they need to believe that people can only be poor because they deserve it and likewise people are only affluent because they are such good people that God bestowed that money upon them as a reward.
They’re terrified of life’s true level of injustice. They can’t believe that people fortunes are a product of chance. They need the fantasy of a benevolent super-father figure controlling everything, and to admit that “shit happens” would destroy that fantasy.
And if they weren’t God’s favored group, why are they so rich?
And beyond that the dog whistling is playing the same game of avoiding obvious class warfare by playing the game of pitting two groups of lower class against each other - and making part of the social structure a lesson of “You are not as good as us, but you are better than them - and they are after you.”
| 237 |
iossarian Mon, Aug 8, 2011 12:27:14pm |
re: #232 RogueOne
I think Klein is pulling numbers out of his ass:
Revisiting the cost of the Bush tax cuts
[Link: www.washingtonpost.com…]
You’re still talking about the cost from 2001 to 2011. That’s different from the 2011 to 2021 cost of extending the cuts.
| 238 |
ProBosniaLiberal Mon, Aug 8, 2011 12:27:25pm |
re: #220 RogueOne
Then get it elsewhere. The poor have already been on the chopping block who knows how many times.
Time for something else.
| 239 |
RogueOne Mon, Aug 8, 2011 12:27:39pm |
re: #229 Bulworth
The poor economy is driving the deficit. The stimulus is already spent. So wingnuts can’t claim that as the problem anymore. And beyond that, what extra spending, other than our wars, has there been?
And just to repeat, we had a balanced budget in 2000. We don’t now. One of the things we did after 2000 was cut taxes. And occupy a couple of foreign countries. The poor aren’t responsible for that.
We are spending 1/3 (a trillion dollars) more now than we were in ‘08 and running a deficit of $1.5 trillion a year. There isn’t anyway to make those numbers look good.
| 240 |
ProBosniaLiberal Mon, Aug 8, 2011 12:28:59pm |
re: #210 Varek Raith
I can’t think of an OECD nation to have driven unemployment that low in the past 20 years.
| 241 |
RogueOne Mon, Aug 8, 2011 12:29:19pm |
re: #237 iossarian
You’re still talking about the cost from 2001 to 2011. That’s different from the 2011 to 2021 cost of extending the cuts.
either way it’s only ~1.5 trillion a decade when we’re borrowing that amount a year. There isn’t any way to raise taxes high enough to pay for it all.
| 242 |
ProBosniaLiberal Mon, Aug 8, 2011 12:29:34pm |
re: #239 RogueOne
You do realize that Iraq and Afghanistan were out the normal budget at the time, right?
| 243 |
Amory Blaine Mon, Aug 8, 2011 12:29:52pm |
re: #239 RogueOne
We are spending 1/3 (a trillion dollars) more now than we were in ‘08 and running a deficit of $1.5 trillion a year. There isn’t anyway to make those numbers look good.
We are in the depth of a terrible recession. Cutting spending will be disastrous.
| 244 |
Lidane Mon, Aug 8, 2011 12:30:18pm |
re: #239 RogueOne
We are spending 1/3 (a trillion dollars) more now than we were in ‘08 and running a deficit of $1.5 trillion a year. There isn’t anyway to make those numbers look good.
But there’s an easy way to improve them — end the two wars we’re fighting, let the Bush tax cuts lapse, and close the corporate loopholes that allow companies to have negative taxes.
| 246 |
Bulworth Mon, Aug 8, 2011 12:30:38pm |
We are spending 1/3 (a trillion dollars) more now than we were in ‘08 and running a deficit of $1.5 trillion a year. There isn’t anyway to make those numbers look good.
Again, where are your numbers coming from? And what is the additional spending?
| 247 |
ProBosniaLiberal Mon, Aug 8, 2011 12:30:39pm |
re: #241 RogueOne
That means the poor don’t have to have as much cut.
Why is it okay to you that the programs that help the poor get slashed. You never have to use them?
| 248 |
Gus Mon, Aug 8, 2011 12:31:21pm |
re: #244 Lidane
But there’s an easy way to improve them — end the two wars we’re fighting, let the Bush tax cuts lapse, and close the corporate loopholes that allow companies to have negative taxes.
But victory is around the corner in Afghanistan!
//
| 249 |
b_sharp Mon, Aug 8, 2011 12:31:44pm |
It’s time to return to the golden era of free enterprise - the early 19th century.
| 250 |
engineer cat Mon, Aug 8, 2011 12:32:41pm |
re: #241 RogueOne
either way it’s only ~1.5 trillion a decade when we’re borrowing that amount a year. There isn’t any way to raise taxes high enough to pay for it all.
that’s no excuse to not raise taxes to help with the deficit
there’s no way we can cut our way to prosperity or a balanced budget, either
saying “there isn’t any way to raise taxes high enough” is like saying “there’s no way that sandwich is going to fill me up, so i’ll just go without lunch entirely”
| 251 |
Vicious Babushka Mon, Aug 8, 2011 12:33:28pm |
re: #249 b_sharp
It’s time to return to the golden era of free enterprise - the early 19th century.
So many jobs available in the mines, the sweatshops, and on the plantations!
| 252 |
Bulworth Mon, Aug 8, 2011 12:33:29pm |
re: #241 RogueOne
either way it’s only ~1.5 trillion a decade when we’re borrowing that amount a year. There isn’t any way to raise taxes high enough to pay for it all.
The 3.6 trillion is for the next ten years. Because wages are slated to grow, a tax cut would cut more from 2011-2021 then from 2001 to 2010. Put another way, leaving the current rates in place would cut more in taxes from 2011-2021 than the same tax cut did 2001-2010.
| 253 |
iossarian Mon, Aug 8, 2011 12:33:29pm |
re: #241 RogueOne
either way it’s only ~1.5 trillion a decade when we’re borrowing that amount a year. There isn’t any way to raise taxes high enough to pay for it all.
Reading that Ezra Klein article, I wonder if there’s a technical difference between the “Bush tax cuts” and a “return to Clinton-era taxation levels” that accounts for the $3.6T figure.
Anyway, I give him the benefit of the doubt, since in any case it’s inconceivable that the Republicans will allow anything of the sort to happen, making it all something of an exercise in magical thinking.
| 254 |
garhighway Mon, Aug 8, 2011 12:34:04pm |
re: #224 Lidane
Fighting two wars while cutting taxes will do that.
No fair.
The statute of limitations on GWB has expired. We aren’t allowed to blame him anymore.
/
| 255 |
Gus Mon, Aug 8, 2011 12:34:39pm |
re: #254 garhighway
No fair.
The statute of limitations on GWB has expired. We aren’t allowed to blame him anymore.
/
Yeah. Let’s blame Jimmy Carter instead!
//
| 256 |
Lidane Mon, Aug 8, 2011 12:35:07pm |
re: #248 Gus 802
But victory is around the corner in Afghanistan!
//
Didn’t the Russians say that for twenty years or so?
| 257 |
Amory Blaine Mon, Aug 8, 2011 12:35:45pm |
| 258 |
lawhawk Mon, Aug 8, 2011 12:36:16pm |
re: #243 Amory Blaine
Are we really going to be cutting spending, or are we simply going to be reducing the level of spending increases? If the fight at state levels are any predictor, I think it’s ending up in the latter category. Spending will continue rising, but at a slower pace. Deficits will continue rising, but at a somewhat slower pace, but the structural deficits and the underlying issues aren’t being firmly addressed. Some of that comes through in the S&P downgrade.
And that means dealing with a combination of tax hikes and spending cuts, neither of which are palatable in a recessionary environment.
Fact is that the stimulus package may have been just enough to keep us out of a worse recession but the moment its effects wore off (and because the stimulus was largely transfer payments and not infrastructure projects that would leave us off in far better shape than before), we’re facing a situation where states haven’t gotten the call to clean up their books and the feds are facing rising debt, not alot to show for the prior stimulus, and a situation where the GOP wants nothing to do with another round of stimulus.
| 259 |
Gus Mon, Aug 8, 2011 12:36:35pm |
re: #256 Lidane
Didn’t the Russians say that for twenty years or so?
Pretty much.
But hey it’s “different” now. We’ve got blimps and aerial drones in there. Just don’t say anything about how the Pakistanis really feel about us.
//
| 260 |
RogueOne Mon, Aug 8, 2011 12:37:04pm |
re: #246 Bulworth
Again, where are your numbers coming from? And what is the additional spending?
2008: $2.9T
2011: $3.8T
[Link: en.wikipedia.org…]
[Link: en.wikipedia.org…]
| 261 |
RogueOne Mon, Aug 8, 2011 12:39:14pm |
re: #250 engineer dog
that’s no excuse to not raise taxes to help with the deficit
there’s no way we can cut our way to prosperity or a balanced budget, either
saying “there isn’t any way to raise taxes high enough” is like saying “there’s no way that sandwich is going to fill me up, so i’ll just go without lunch entirely”
I’ve said (repeatedly) that the bush cuts need to expire. BUT, that’s not anywhere good enough. Without entitlement reform we’re still sliding down at a fairly quick pace. The S&P would like to see both new tax rates and entitlement cuts and so would I.
| 262 |
RogueOne Mon, Aug 8, 2011 12:40:02pm |
re: #255 Gus 802
Yeah. Let’s blame Jimmy Carter instead!
//
at least Carter had the foresight to deregulate beer….
| 263 |
Amory Blaine Mon, Aug 8, 2011 12:40:47pm |
re: #258 lawhawk
Are we really going to be cutting spending, or are we simply going to be reducing the level of spending increases? If the fight at state levels are any predictor, I think it’s ending up in the latter category. Spending will continue rising, but at a slower pace. Deficits will continue rising, but at a somewhat slower pace, but the structural deficits and the underlying issues aren’t being firmly addressed. Some of that comes through in the S&P downgrade.
And that means dealing with a combination of tax hikes and spending cuts, neither of which are palatable in a recessionary environment.
Fact is that the stimulus package may have been just enough to keep us out of a worse recession but the moment its effects wore off (and because the stimulus was largely transfer payments and not infrastructure projects that would leave us off in far better shape than before), we’re facing a situation where states haven’t gotten the call to clean up their books and the feds are facing rising debt, not alot to show for the prior stimulus, and a situation where the GOP wants nothing to do with another round of stimulus.
What is cleaning up the books though? Cutting services, teachers, pay, benefits, transportation? States all over the country are already doing this. I think raising taxes on the “job creators” will go along ways myself towards cleaning up the books. Something BTW no state is doing.
| 264 |
allegro Mon, Aug 8, 2011 12:40:50pm |
re: #261 RogueOne
I’ve said (repeatedly) that the bush cuts need to expire. BUT, that’s not anywhere good enough. Without entitlement reform we’re still sliding down at a fairly quick pace. The S&P would like to see both new tax rates and entitlement cuts and so would I.
Why is it always “entitlement reform” with you guys and never corporate welfare reform? Why is the latter never even in the lingo tossed so cavalierly?
| 265 |
RogueOne Mon, Aug 8, 2011 12:41:46pm |
re: #243 Amory Blaine
We are in the depth of a terrible recession. Cutting spending will be disastrous.
cutting spending would be bad but raising taxes would be good? How about we find a nice middle ground. As I’ve already pointed out, we’ve increased spending by a trillion dollars/year in a short 3 years. I’m fairly certain we should be able to come up with a crappy $400 billion/year to cut.
| 266 |
jaunte Mon, Aug 8, 2011 12:42:14pm |
| 268 |
b_sharp Mon, Aug 8, 2011 12:43:14pm |
re: #264 allegro
Why is it always “entitlement reform” with you guys and never corporate welfare reform? Why is the latter never even in the lingo tossed so cavalierly?
Because the big corps create a massive number of jobs for every dollar they’re handed.
That’s why the jobless rate is so low.
| 269 |
Obdicut Mon, Aug 8, 2011 12:43:25pm |
re: #261 RogueOne
The main thing is, and has been, reducing medical spending. That’s what’s been skyrocketing. Single payer would have been an excellent way to do that, but the GOP took that off the table, hardcore.
Otherwise, ‘entitlements’ are some of the best expenditure the government can do; it pumps money right back into the economy, keeps the domestic market strong, and helps to stop the economic damage that comes with homelessness, destiuttion, etc. Those poor people don’t go away just because we cut ‘entitlements’, you know.
But medical costs have been exploding for decades, and that is one of the main things that needs to be addressed. The attempt to address them, while a good start that reduced our spending (though, of course, not that you’d know that from the idiots talking about “obamacare”) was fatally crippled in compromise.
| 270 |
Our Precious Bodily Fluids Mon, Aug 8, 2011 12:43:25pm |
| 271 |
Charleston Chew Mon, Aug 8, 2011 12:43:29pm |
re: #248 Gus 802
But victory is around the corner in Afghanistan!
//
There will be no victory in Afghanistan, but no war ends in victory.
People like to imagine that WWII ended in victory for the Allies, but that war ended with the Soviet Union conquering a big portion of Europe and lead to about 45 years of Cold War.
I don’t mean to sound pessimistic. Just saying that whatever the outcome, wars are just chapters in a bigger story.
| 272 |
RogueOne Mon, Aug 8, 2011 12:43:40pm |
re: #264 allegro
Why is it always “entitlement reform” with you guys and never corporate welfare reform? Why is the latter never even in the lingo tossed so cavalierly?
because we can’t raise taxes high enough to compensate for the spending increases. The numbers do not add up no matter how badly you want to increase tax rates. In order to balance the budget we would have to come up with an extra $1.7 trillion/year in taxes. Not gonna happen.
| 273 |
garhighway Mon, Aug 8, 2011 12:43:52pm |
re: #260 RogueOne
2008: $2.9T
2011: $3.8T[Link: en.wikipedia.org…]
[Link: en.wikipedia.org…]
Just don’t forget this sentence from your 2008 article:
The Iraq War and the War in Afghanistan are not included in the regular budget. Instead they are funded through special appropriations.
That might affect your math.
| 274 |
RogueOne Mon, Aug 8, 2011 12:44:18pm |
| 276 |
Obdicut Mon, Aug 8, 2011 12:44:37pm |
re: #265 RogueOne
What if the cuts you make wind up costing us more money than they save, as is so often the case?
| 278 |
Obdicut Mon, Aug 8, 2011 12:45:10pm |
re: #273 garhighway
Just don’t forget this sentence from your 2008 article:
The Iraq War and the War in Afghanistan are not included in the regular budget. Instead they are funded through special appropriations.
That might affect your math.
Rogue isn’t really into factually-based statements.
| 279 |
RogueOne Mon, Aug 8, 2011 12:45:30pm |
re: #273 garhighway
Just don’t forget this sentence from your 2008 article:
The Iraq War and the War in Afghanistan are not included in the regular budget. Instead they are funded through special appropriations.
That might affect your math.
mine and the congressional compromise since $1T of the “savings” comes out of that money.
| 280 |
allegro Mon, Aug 8, 2011 12:46:56pm |
re: #265 RogueOne
cutting spending would be bad but raising taxes would be good? How about we find a nice middle ground. As I’ve already pointed out, we’ve increased spending by a trillion dollars/year in a short 3 years. I’m fairly certain we should be able to come up with a crappy $400 billion/year to cut.
re: #272 RogueOne
because we can’t raise taxes high enough to compensate for the spending increases. The numbers do not add up no matter how badly you want to increase tax rates. In order to balance the budget we would have to come up with an extra $1.7 trillion/year in taxes. Not gonna happen.
These numbers sure don’t add up. You are correct. What are you arguing? I’m lost.
| 281 |
engineer cat Mon, Aug 8, 2011 12:46:59pm |
re: #261 RogueOne
I’ve said (repeatedly) that the bush cuts need to expire. BUT, that’s not anywhere good enough. Without entitlement reform we’re still sliding down at a fairly quick pace. The S&P would like to see both new tax rates and entitlement cuts and so would I.
well, first of all i don’t think it’s good when people lump social security and medicare together as ‘entitlements’. they are two very different programs with very different problems
the social security trustees currently predict that soon the fund will start taking in less than it pays out on a continuing basis (it has always made a profit until the past two years), and the fund will not be able to pay full benefits by 2036 or so. at that time they estimate that if nothing has been done by then, they will only be able to pay out about 75% of benefits. soon after that, us baby boomers will start to die off, so the dynamics of social security might be very different in 40 years…
the social security trustees are the board legally charged with the management of social security, so i tend to believe what they say a lot more than the many pundits and columnists who sound off on the subject with vague, alarming, inaccurate pronouncements
many people estimate that social securities problems could be solved by increasing the current cap on social security contributions from $106,500 to, say, $150,000. this would mean that people making over $106,500 per year, as well as their employers, would have to pay at most another three and a half grand per year into the fund. i would be among those people and i think i could manage it
as for medicare, i know much less about it and it seems to be a much more difficult problem. i will only say that it is well known that we pay more for less excellent overall health care than many other nations whose medical systems would be considered ‘socialized medicine” in the context of the united states
of course, all other nations have more ‘socialist’ medical financing systems than the united states
all of them
| 282 |
Gus Mon, Aug 8, 2011 12:47:01pm |
Iraq War; Afghanistan War; Pakistan “War”; Iran threat; North Korean threat; Drug War; fortress America (i.e. Homeland Security/Patriot Act); Yemen; Libyan War; Nation building Iraq…
| 283 |
ProBosniaLiberal Mon, Aug 8, 2011 12:47:04pm |
re: #272 RogueOne
After the crap of the Tea Party, your side better be giving a lot. In fact, I would like to see your defeated. After the last 10-20 of Liberals being smeared for everything, I want comeuppance.
| 284 |
Bulworth Mon, Aug 8, 2011 12:47:22pm |
re: #273 garhighway
Just don’t forget this sentence from your 2008 article:
The Iraq War and the War in Afghanistan are not included in the regular budget. Instead they are funded through special appropriations.
That might affect your math.
Basically the Obama budget counts the wars and the Bush budget did not.
| 285 |
Gus Mon, Aug 8, 2011 12:48:18pm |
re: #284 Bulworth
Basically the Obama budget counts the wars and the Bush budget did not.
Why do you hate America?
//Put’s on some Lee Greenwood…
//
| 286 |
RogueOne Mon, Aug 8, 2011 12:49:21pm |
re: #276 Obdicut
What if the cuts you make wind up costing us more money than they save, as is so often the case?
If you’re going to have to spend it eventually then it makes sense but that isn’t the case. That’s the same argument my spouse uses when she comes home from shopping. “look at all the money I saved!”. She didn’t “save” anything, she spent. It’s true that sometimes you can save money by buying now but only if you really believe the feds are that efficient. I don’t.
We have to do entitlement reform. Everyone recognizes it but they want to be able to blame the other team for doing anything about it. The repubs hammered Obama on his cuts in ‘10 and the dems are going to repay the favor in ‘12. In the meantime, we’re all getting screwed.
| 288 |
goddamnedfrank Mon, Aug 8, 2011 12:49:41pm |
re: #265 RogueOne
I’m fairly certain we should be able to come up with a crappy $400 billion/year to cut.
We could cut that much from the yearly defense budget alone and still be spending more than two and a half times as much as our next largest competitor (China.)
| 289 |
Eventual Carrion Mon, Aug 8, 2011 12:49:45pm |
re: #21 Dark_Falcon
Because he’s fairly liberal and doesn’t really want to cut spending. He’s accepted that it needs to happen, but he does not like it.
There are also raises in taxes, closing of tax loopholes, raising the cap on SS earnings that can be taxes. See how far that goes with the GOP. Putting this all on Obama is totally disingenuous.
While cherry picking, make sure the ladder is on solid ground or you will just be eating dirt.
| 290 |
Bulworth Mon, Aug 8, 2011 12:49:58pm |
From Wiki
The non-partisan Congressional Research Service has estimated the 10-year revenue loss from extending the 2001 and 2003 tax cuts beyond 2010 at $2.9 trillion, with an additional $606 billion in debt service costs (interest), for a combined total of $3.5 trillion.[26]
[Link: en.wikipedia.org…]
Also
In August 2010, the Congressional Budget Office (CBO) estimated that extending the tax cuts for the 2011-2020 time period would add $3.3 trillion to the national debt, comprising $2.65 trillion in foregone tax revenue plus another $0.66 trillion for interest and debt service costs.[24]
| 292 |
RogueOne Mon, Aug 8, 2011 12:50:15pm |
| 293 |
garhighway Mon, Aug 8, 2011 12:50:32pm |
re: #279 RogueOne
mine and the congressional compromise since $1T of the “savings” comes out of that money.
My point is that your 08 v 09 delta is apples and oranges, since the wars are in the 2009 budget numbers but not 2008.
How Congress did their math is beyond me.
| 294 |
goddamnedfrank Mon, Aug 8, 2011 12:51:11pm |
re: #282 Gus 802
Iraq War; Afghanistan War; Pakistan “War”; Iran threat; North Korean threat; Drug War; fortress America (i.e. Homeland Security/Patriot Act); Yemen; Libyan War; Nation building Iraq…
You forgot the War on Christmas.
| 295 |
Vicious Babushka Mon, Aug 8, 2011 12:51:15pm |
re: #293 garhighway
My point is that your 08 v 09 delta is apples and oranges, since the wars are in the 2009 budget numbers but not 2008.
How Congress did their math is beyond me.
If they knew math, they would have real jobs.
| 296 |
Mostly sane, most of the time. Mon, Aug 8, 2011 12:51:31pm |
re: #291 Gus 802
There is no apostrophe in “put’s”.
There is if you give put a birthday gift. Put’s birthday gift.
See?
| 298 |
Bulworth Mon, Aug 8, 2011 12:52:04pm |
mine and the congressional compromise since $1T of the “savings” comes out of that money.
Now you’re talking about the next ten year estimates.
But the 2011 budget is different from the 2008 (Bush) budget in that Obama 11 budget counted the cost of the wars and the Bush 2008 budget did not.
| 299 |
Randall Gross Mon, Aug 8, 2011 12:52:15pm |
One thing’s very clear to me, the tea party led GOP has now shown they are willing to sacrifice the military to protect their buddies from taxes. The eventual outcome could very well be that we pull out of Afghanistan, then stop all needed aid, and they get gobbled up by extremists. The GOP will then be happy to have hypocritically orchestrated Viet Nam II but only because they think they will be able to drape the albatross around Obama’s shoulders.
| 300 |
Amory Blaine Mon, Aug 8, 2011 12:52:43pm |
re: #298 Bulworth
Did any of Bushes budgets cover the war costs?
| 301 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Mon, Aug 8, 2011 12:52:49pm |
| 302 |
Obdicut Mon, Aug 8, 2011 12:52:57pm |
re: #286 RogueOne
That’s the same argument my spouse uses when she comes home from shopping. “look at all the money I saved!”. She didn’t “save” anything, she spent.
Jesus, what a fucking stupid analogy. You’re trying to compare your wife taking advantage of a sale price with a program that keeps someone from being evicted, spends a small amount of money to help them keep housing in order to avoid the economic drag of their eviction, their homelessness, etc. What a fucking joke.
There are no analogies between household spending and what the government does. none. They are goddamn stupid beyond belief and thinking about it for five second should let you know. It is like saying that owning a gun for self-defense is analogous to mounting an invasion of another country.
Money spent researching in the CDC is not at all similar to money spent on a pair of shoes at 10% off. Money spent to provide food for hungry kids is not similar to getting a kicky summer frock at wholesale. There is no comparison, and making the comparison is goofy.
| 304 |
blueraven Mon, Aug 8, 2011 12:53:40pm |
re: #286 RogueOne
If you’re going to have to spend it eventually then it makes sense but that isn’t the case. That’s the same argument my spouse uses when she comes home from shopping. “look at all the money I saved!”. She didn’t “save” anything, she spent. It’s true that sometimes you can save money by buying now but only if you really believe the feds are that efficient. I don’t.
We have to do entitlement reform. Everyone recognizes it but they want to be able to blame the other team for doing anything about it. The repubs hammered Obama on his cuts in ‘10 and the dems are going to repay the favor in ‘12. In the meantime, we’re all getting screwed.
I would agree with reform…not gut. Also while we are at it, we need to get rid of corporate welfare. The president has agreed to put medicare, medicaid, and even SS on the table. What has the other side offered?
| 305 |
RogueOne Mon, Aug 8, 2011 12:53:41pm |
re: #288 goddamnedfrank
We could cut that much from the yearly defense budget alone and still be spending more than two and a half times as much as our next largest competitor (China.)
I believe our defense spending is somewhere around $700Billion. If you cut it all it still leaves us in the hole to the tune of ~900 Billion/year.
| 306 |
lawhawk Mon, Aug 8, 2011 12:53:51pm |
re: #293 garhighway
How Congress did their math is beyond me.
It’s all real simple. Do whatever it takes to get elected. Do whatever it takes to get legislation passed.
The Bush tax cuts were supposed to lapse - it was written into the law because it was meant to game the CBO scoring. It’s why the Obama extension was written as it was - with revenues and certain cuts made to balance out.
| 307 |
Gus Mon, Aug 8, 2011 12:53:58pm |
If some of these wars were really about principle (i.e. Libya) shouldn’t we bombing Syrian army headquarters by now?
| 308 |
Targetpractice Mon, Aug 8, 2011 12:54:25pm |
I’m okay with “entitlement” reform. Thing is, privatization as proposed by the Ryan Plan is not “reform,” no matter how hard you polish that turd.
| 309 |
allegro Mon, Aug 8, 2011 12:54:25pm |
re: #292 RogueOne
I’m arguing that we cannot afford to continue our spending levels. If I agree that we need to raise taxes I’m looking for a compromise to cut spending.
OK, I’ll give ya that. So I’m back to my original question. Why is it only “entitlement cuts” that you guys insist on and never corporate welfare cuts?
| 311 |
RogueOne Mon, Aug 8, 2011 12:55:56pm |
re: #298 Bulworth
Now you’re talking about the next ten year estimates.
But the 2011 budget is different from the 2008 (Bush) budget in that Obama 11 budget counted the cost of the wars and the Bush 2008 budget did not.
The president said in June that the cost of both wars was roughly $1trillion…since 2001. If you take it out of the budget ($100B/yr)we’re still spending $800billion a year more now than in ‘08.
| 312 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Mon, Aug 8, 2011 12:56:04pm |
re: #307 Gus 802
If some of these wars were really about principle (i.e. Libya) shouldn’t we bombing Syrian army headquarters by now?
No, non sequitur. You deal with what you can deal with.
| 313 |
RogueOne Mon, Aug 8, 2011 12:56:37pm |
re: #302 Obdicut
Jesus, what a fucking stupid analogy. You’re trying to compare your wife taking advantage of a sale price with a program that keeps someone from being evicted, spends a small amount of money to help them keep housing in order to avoid the economic drag of their eviction, their homelessness, etc. What a fucking joke.
There are no analogies between household spending and what the government does. none. They are goddamn stupid beyond belief and thinking about it for five second should let you know. It is like saying that owning a gun for self-defense is analogous to mounting an invasion of another country.
Money spent researching in the CDC is not at all similar to money spent on a pair of shoes at 10% off. Money spent to provide food for hungry kids is not similar to getting a kicky summer frock at wholesale. There is no comparison, and making the comparison is goofy.
I agree. The argument that spending now saves later is a stupid argument. Stop using it.
| 316 |
goddamnedfrank Mon, Aug 8, 2011 12:57:07pm |
re: #302 Obdicut
There are no analogies between household spending and what the government does. none.
I can think of one: spending money to take the kids in for preventative medical checks, vaccinations, and dental cleanings saves money by not having to pay later for surgeries, hospitalizations and oral surgeons.
| 318 |
ProBosniaLiberal Mon, Aug 8, 2011 12:57:23pm |
re: #307 Gus 802
True. However, after Iraq, we have to do things by the book in the UN.
I don’t like, but that’s the way it is. Eventually, I would like to see an addition into the UN Charter allowing for war in these cases so Russia and China can’t hamstring any action.
| 319 |
RogueOne Mon, Aug 8, 2011 12:57:32pm |
re: #309 allegro
OK, I’ll give ya that. So I’m back to my original question. Why is it only “entitlement cuts” that you guys insist on and never corporate welfare cuts?
I’ve said I’m good with raising taxes. It’s going to have to be a bit of both in order to make it work.
| 321 |
Feline Fearless Leader Mon, Aug 8, 2011 12:58:07pm |
re: #282 Gus 802
Iraq War; Afghanistan War; Pakistan “War”; Iran threat; North Korean threat; Drug War; fortress America (i.e. Homeland Security/Patriot Act); Yemen; Libyan War; Nation building Iraq…
Hey! I have nothing against the formation of the TSA and their stupid “take your shoes off” airport security policy that ends up with me getting used chewing gum stuck in my socks (and the inside of my shoes)…*
/
* And I spent 40 minutes going through a 25 person long TSA line in LAX a week ago. That’s more time than it took me to go through 12+ security checks in my three weeks of travel previous to that. (As far as I could tell they were training someone how to look at the x-ray scans of carry-ons. They were spending 1-2 minutes per bag. And they chatted about my one bag for 30 or so seconds as it went through. Without bothering to actually search it — and that same bag was searched in a different terminal of LAX two hours earlier.)
| 322 |
RogueOne Mon, Aug 8, 2011 12:58:29pm |
re: #317 Thanos
How is that a “principle”? Riyadh is full of civilians, not terrorists.
Having been there I can say it’s probably a bit of both.
| 323 |
Gus Mon, Aug 8, 2011 12:58:35pm |
re: #312 Sergey Romanov
No, non sequitur. You deal with what you can deal with.
I don’t think so. The reason this is happening in Libya is largely because of French economic interests with said country. It is in the end about keep the flow of oil to France and most of Europe.
| 324 |
allegro Mon, Aug 8, 2011 12:58:40pm |
re: #313 RogueOne
I agree. The argument that spending now saves later is a stupid argument. Stop using it.
Downding for being the stupidest statement I’ve read today. Did you even think at all about this before saying it? Really?
| 326 |
Gus Mon, Aug 8, 2011 12:59:13pm |
re: #317 Thanos
How is that a “principle”? Riyadh is full of civilians, not terrorists.
Baghdad was also full of civilians, and not terrorists.
| 327 |
ProBosniaLiberal Mon, Aug 8, 2011 12:59:27pm |
re: #319 RogueOne
For me, it isn’t good enough. When my side gets more power, your side better give damn near everything.
| 328 |
Obdicut Mon, Aug 8, 2011 12:59:41pm |
re: #313 RogueOne
I agree. The argument that spending now saves later is a stupid argument. Stop using it.
Oh really? So, if you’re building a building, and you spend money sealing the roof so it doesn’t leak and ruin the floors, that’s a stupid thing to do?
Your household spending analogy is stupid. The government isn’t buying things on sale. It is trying— and we can debate the success or failure of programs, I’m fine with that— to stave off known costs by spending.
If you can’t even acknowledge the reality of that, that government spending isn’t just dumping money into a pit, but that it’s for actual needs that, if not met by the government really demonstrably cause problems, then your faith in your own position must be mighty damn weak.
| 329 |
RogueOne Mon, Aug 8, 2011 12:59:47pm |
re: #324 allegro
Downding for being the stupidest statement I’ve read today. Did you even think at all about this before saying it? Really?
Yes. He’s made that argument repeatedly. That and “it’s so cheap to borrow money”. It’s a lousy argument, it’s lousy policy, and it’s partly why we just got our credit downgraded.
| 330 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Mon, Aug 8, 2011 1:00:10pm |
re: #323 Gus 802
I don’t think so. The reason this is happening in Libya is largely because of French economic interests with said country. It is in the end about keep the flow of oil to France and most of Europe.
That doesn’t deal with what I wrote even if you could prove that assertion. Your argument is still a non sequitur - just because not all principled wars are feasible doesn’t mean that no current wars are wars of principle.
| 331 |
Bulworth Mon, Aug 8, 2011 1:00:10pm |
re: #290 Bulworth
From Wiki
[Link: en.wikipedia.org…]Also
Just to affirm, then, Klein was not in fact “pulling numbers out of his ass”. Klein’s $3.6 trillion cite is pretty close to CRS’s $3.5 trill and CBO’s $3.3 trillion.
| 332 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Mon, Aug 8, 2011 1:00:39pm |
re: #325 Lidane
The point is, the hijackers were raised and educated in Saudi Wahhabist schools. They weren’t Iraqi, so attacking Iraq for 9/11 made no goddamn sense.
I don’t know if that was the point, but you wrote something very different.
| 333 |
Gus Mon, Aug 8, 2011 1:00:42pm |
re: #320 Sergey Romanov
Indeed. Some “principle”.
Sort of like the same principle of bombing another city full of civilians namely Baghdad no?
| 334 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Mon, Aug 8, 2011 1:01:33pm |
re: #326 Gus 802
Baghdad was also full of civilians, and not terrorists.
Nobody but wingnuts say that Iraq was a war of principle.
| 335 |
Obdicut Mon, Aug 8, 2011 1:01:43pm |
re: #329 RogueOne
Yes. He’s made that argument repeatedly. That and “it’s so cheap to borrow money”. It’s a lousy argument, it’s lousy policy, and it’s partly why we just got our credit downgraded.
No, Rogue, that’s an entirely different goddamn argument. Entirely.
Right now, the percentage we have to pay as interest on any new debt is insanely, incredibly low. So, for any costs that we know we have— if we know we need to build infrastructure, if we know we need to do whatever— it will cost less money to borrow it and spend it now than to use tax monies going forward.
| 336 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Mon, Aug 8, 2011 1:01:47pm |
re: #333 Gus 802
Sort of like the same principle of bombing another city full of civilians namely Baghdad no?
No.
| 337 |
Gus Mon, Aug 8, 2011 1:02:32pm |
re: #334 Sergey Romanov
Nobody but wingnuts say that Iraq was a war of principle.
That’s the way Bush sold it to us. It was about “bringing freedom and democracy” including ridding the threat of “WMDs”.
| 338 |
Lidane Mon, Aug 8, 2011 1:03:11pm |
re: #332 Sergey Romanov
I don’t know if that was the point, but you wrote something very different.
I know what I wrote. I also meant it exactly in the way I described it. We were attacked by people who weren’t Iraqi. Why have we been in Iraq for the last ten years?
| 339 |
RogueOne Mon, Aug 8, 2011 1:03:23pm |
re: #328 Obdicut
Oh really? So, if you’re building a building, and you spend money sealing the roof so it doesn’t leak and ruin the floors, that’s a stupid thing to do?
Your household spending analogy is stupid. The government isn’t buying things on sale. It is trying— and we can debate the success or failure of programs, I’m fine with that— to stave off known costs by spending.
If you can’t even acknowledge the reality of that, that government spending isn’t just dumping money into a pit, but that it’s for actual needs that, if not met by the government really demonstrably cause problems, then your faith in your own position must be mighty damn weak.
Borrowing money to spend on satellites that we do not need does not save us money. It costs us money. Borrowing money to spend on new entitlement programs does not save us money. It costs us money. Borrowing money to invade another country does not save us money.
You believe the feds have the foresight to spend wisely to save us in the long run. I don’t have that faith in government. Every time they say it’s only going to cost us “x amount” of dollars they’re wrong, way wrong. Their math never adds up, never.
| 340 |
Gus Mon, Aug 8, 2011 1:03:54pm |
The security environment confronting the United States today is radically different from what we have faced before. Yet the first duty of the United States Government remains what it always has been: to protect the American people and American interests. It is an enduring American principle that this duty obligates the government to anticipate and counter threats, using all elements of national power, before the threats can do grave damage. The greater the threat, the greater is the risk of inaction – and the more compelling the case for taking anticipatory action to defend ourselves, even if uncertainty remains as to the time and place of the enemy’s attack. There are few greater threats than a terrorist attack with WMD. GWB - 2006
| 341 |
goddamnedfrank Mon, Aug 8, 2011 1:04:03pm |
Spend money now on sunscreen, or pay an oncologist later for melanoma treatments?
| 342 |
garhighway Mon, Aug 8, 2011 1:04:22pm |
re: #335 Obdicut
No, Rogue, that’s an entirely different goddamn argument. Entirely.
Right now, the percentage we have to pay as interest on any new debt is insanely, incredibly low. So, for any costs that we know we have— if we know we need to build infrastructure, if we know we need to do whatever— it will cost less money to borrow it and spend it now than to use tax monies going forward.
C’mon, Obdi, get with the program!
Repeat after me: debt bad, taxes bad, spending bad.
Repeat as often as necessary. Then you, too, will be a GOP budget expert.
| 343 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Mon, Aug 8, 2011 1:04:24pm |
re: #337 Gus 802
That’s the way Bush sold it to us. It was about “bringing freedom and democracy” including ridding the threat of “WMDs”.
I know. Which is why one must look critically at high-minded rhetoric as well as alleged facts on the ground. Doesn’t mean that Libya cannot be based on a principle.
| 345 |
Alexzander Mon, Aug 8, 2011 1:04:46pm |
| 346 |
Targetpractice Mon, Aug 8, 2011 1:04:50pm |
re: #338 Lidane
I know what I wrote. I also meant it exactly in the way I described it. We were attacked by people who weren’t Iraqi. Why have we been in Iraq for the last ten years?
Because we got ourselves knee-deep in shit and couldn’t leave quickly without looking like damned fools for being there in the first place. Plus, knocking off the entire government without securing a solid replacement would have just made matters worse for the Iraqi people.
It’s the “You break it, you bought it” syndrome.
| 347 |
RogueOne Mon, Aug 8, 2011 1:04:53pm |
I’m falling way behind. I’ll be back later. We have another 5 months to argue this before congress has to come up with another genius plan to save the economy.
| 349 |
Lidane Mon, Aug 8, 2011 1:05:06pm |
re: #337 Gus 802
That’s the way Bush sold it to us. It was about “bringing freedom and democracy” including ridding the threat of “WMDs”.
Yep. And every justification for it was proven to be a lie.
The only reason we’re still there is because we broke the country and we’re trying to fix it.
| 351 |
Obdicut Mon, Aug 8, 2011 1:05:14pm |
re: #339 RogueOne
Borrowing money to spend on satellites that we do not need does not save us money. It costs us money.
What satellites that we don’t need? What are you talking about? The satellites that farmers depend on, those ones?
Borrowing money to spend on new entitlement programs does not save us money. It costs us money
This is a statement of faith from you. An ideological position. It is not based on actual analysis.
Their math never adds up, never.
Do you understand the enormous value of basic science research done and funded by the US government? Do you understand how much it has contributed to the US’s economic dominance?
| 352 |
garhighway Mon, Aug 8, 2011 1:05:16pm |
re: #341 goddamnedfrank
Spend money now on sunscreen, or pay an oncologist later for melanoma treatments?
Pay to fix a bridge now, or pay for the wrongful death lawsuits later?
| 353 |
BongCrodny Mon, Aug 8, 2011 1:05:29pm |
re: #319 RogueOne
I’ve said I’m good with raising taxes. It’s going to have to be a bit of both in order to make it work.
Are you going to vote for the guys who are open to raising taxes, or are you going to vote for the Grover Norquist Marching Society?
If it’s “B”, you’re never going to get that “bit of both.”re: #335 Obdicut
No, Rogue, that’s an entirely different goddamn argument. Entirely.
Right now, the percentage we have to pay as interest on any new debt is insanely, incredibly low. So, for any costs that we know we have— if we know we need to build infrastructure, if we know we need to do whatever— it will cost less money to borrow it and spend it now than to use tax monies going forward.
I took a tour of the Hoover Dam once, and the tour guide mentioned that in today’s dollars, the Hoover Dam could not be built; it would be too expensive.
Good thing they built it when it was cheap.
| 354 |
Our Precious Bodily Fluids Mon, Aug 8, 2011 1:06:11pm |
re: #344 Killgore Trout
Dow closes -634
Thanks, GOP
According to Boehner, that was only 98% of everything they wanted. What was in the other 2%?
| 355 |
Randall Gross Mon, Aug 8, 2011 1:06:13pm |
re: #338 Lidane
Yeah, but you didn’t say that. It’s easy to sling statements that can be misinterpreted.
For the record right now President Obama is doing the most principled thing possible: he’s directly attacking the specific groups responsible for numerous terrorist attacks. He’s not attacking cities, countries, or religions, - he’s attacking the specific culprits.
| 357 |
Killgore Trout Mon, Aug 8, 2011 1:06:30pm |
re: #345 Alexzander
The apocolypse is going own in London.
BBC Live Feed of HUGE fire:
[Link: www.bbc.co.uk…]
ugh
| 358 |
goddamnedfrank Mon, Aug 8, 2011 1:07:03pm |
re: #354 negativ
According to Boehner, that was only 98% of everything they wanted. What was in the other 2%?
Tilling the soil with a human femur.
| 359 |
Alexzander Mon, Aug 8, 2011 1:07:17pm |
| 360 |
Amory Blaine Mon, Aug 8, 2011 1:07:25pm |
re: #346 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds
Because we got ourselves knee-deep in shit and couldn’t leave quickly without looking like damned fools for being there in the first place. Plus, knocking off the entire government without securing a solid replacement would have just made matters worse for the Iraqi people.
It’s the “You break it, you bought it” syndrome.
| 361 |
Lidane Mon, Aug 8, 2011 1:07:39pm |
re: #355 Thanos
Yeah, but you didn’t say that. It’s easy to sling statements that can be misinterpreted..
Fair enough. I’ll concede that my wording absolutely sucked.
| 362 |
Targetpractice Mon, Aug 8, 2011 1:07:51pm |
re: #345 Alexzander
The apocolypse is going own in London.
BBC Live Feed of HUGE fire:
[Link: www.bbc.co.uk…]
First Greece, now Britain. Somehow, I get the sinking feeling that we’re next.
| 363 |
Bob Dillon Mon, Aug 8, 2011 1:08:21pm |
re: #339 RogueOne
You believe the feds have the foresight to spend wisely to save us in the long run. I don’t have that faith in government. Every time they say it’s only going to cost us “x amount” of dollars they’re wrong, way wrong. Their math never adds up, never.
Its like doing analysis on a 100 year flood plain with only 25 years of data. An outcome using the data is obtainable but it will not reflect reality.
| 364 |
Lidane Mon, Aug 8, 2011 1:08:37pm |
re: #345 Alexzander
The apocolypse is going own in London.
BBC Live Feed of HUGE fire:
[Link: www.bbc.co.uk…]
WTF brought all that on?
| 367 |
Gus Mon, Aug 8, 2011 1:09:35pm |
re: #343 Sergey Romanov
I know. Which is why one must look critically at high-minded rhetoric as well as alleged facts on the ground. Doesn’t mean that Libya cannot be based on a principle.
Then one would have to define those principles. I obviously left those out. Then the principles for being in Libya are largely economic.
| 368 |
Targetpractice Mon, Aug 8, 2011 1:09:55pm |
re: #364 Lidane
WTF brought all that on?
Apparently a controversial shooting of a cocaine dealer ignited a great deal of simmering unrest over high unemployment and cuts to public services. Or so I’ve been told.
| 369 |
Gus Mon, Aug 8, 2011 1:10:00pm |
Funny how the Bush Doctrine still has legs even with a lot of Democrats.
| 370 |
Lidane Mon, Aug 8, 2011 1:10:21pm |
re: #366 Sergey Romanov
Your point, in retrospect, seems to be that if the war was waged on the same principle as pronounced for Iraq, and if the US was consistent, you would also had to bomb SA.
Yes, but I phrased it extremely poorly. I readily concede that.
| 371 |
Amory Blaine Mon, Aug 8, 2011 1:10:27pm |
re: #368 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds
It’s the 80s all over again.
| 372 |
Interesting Times Mon, Aug 8, 2011 1:10:31pm |
re: #362 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds
First Greece, now Britain. Somehow, I get the sinking feeling that we’re next.
Only if the primetime TV schedule gets messed up.
/
| 373 |
lawhawk Mon, Aug 8, 2011 1:10:35pm |
re: #353 BongCrodny
As an aside, Hoover dam probably couldn’t be built now solely because of the environmental damage it would do to the Colorado River basin.
But even if it survived the environmental challenges, you’re right - it couldn’t be built now because we as a nation can’t seem to put together the big ideas to work on infrastructure, and we can barely deal with the existing infrastructure that is crumbling before our eyes.
| 374 |
(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Mon, Aug 8, 2011 1:11:31pm |
re: #184 bloodstar
Because I fully expect the EU to implode in the next 6 months.
lol
| 375 |
allegro Mon, Aug 8, 2011 1:11:51pm |
re: #339 RogueOne
Borrowing money to spend on satellites that we do not need does not save us money. It costs us money.
Really? Intelligence gathering satellites likely save us quite a lot in on-the-ground personnel and infrastructure. Weather satellites likely save us a lot in tax-payers lives being saved due to early warnings. Telecommunications satellites make money for companies that if they were actually paying taxes would be revenue generators.
Borrowing money to spend on new entitlement programs does not save us money. It costs us money.
Really? If what you are calling “entitlement programs” include early childhood education then yes, they have been proven to save us money by helping to educate kids and keep them in school later so that they become productive tax-paying members of society. Ditto food programs for kids, etc. What about jobs training? That’s a waste too? Medical care? What are the costs without those programs?
Borrowing money to invade another country does not save us money.
Finally you found a nut.
| 376 |
ProBosniaLiberal Mon, Aug 8, 2011 1:12:16pm |
re: #372 publicityStunted
Britain is having a moment of France 2005.
This is a wakeup call about the neglect of the British Government regarding Minorities.
If the Tea Party gets their way, this will happen in the US.
| 377 |
Alexzander Mon, Aug 8, 2011 1:12:39pm |
re: #364 Lidane
WTF brought all that on?
Originally, the shooting on a young black father in a black neighbourhood.
At least ,that was the straw that broke the camels back.
Other factors in my opinion:
1. Nihilist culture
2. General belief that the future for young people will not be as good as it was for our parents
3. General racism and police abuse.
| 378 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Mon, Aug 8, 2011 1:13:37pm |
re: #369 Gus 802
Funny how the Bush Doctrine still has legs even with a lot of Democrats.
Prevention of mass slaughter is not a Bush doctrine.
| 380 |
Lidane Mon, Aug 8, 2011 1:15:40pm |
Geez louise… watching this BBC report and this fire, I hope that people in the area are safe. That fire is just scary as all hell.
| 381 |
Feline Fearless Leader Mon, Aug 8, 2011 1:16:15pm |
re: #358 goddamnedfrank
Tilling the soil with a human femur.
I suspect it would more be using the femur to threaten the person who actually tilled the soil to give up their produce.
| 382 |
Lidane Mon, Aug 8, 2011 1:17:20pm |
re: #379 Gus 802
What’s being deleted?
My poorly written post and any quotes of it, I suspect.
It’s all good. I should have thought things through a bit more before hitting the post button. *shrug*
| 383 |
Alexzander Mon, Aug 8, 2011 1:18:10pm |
re: #380 Lidane
Geez louise… watching this BBC report and this fire, I hope that people in the area are safe. That fire is just scary as all hell.
Yeah my mother is in London right now. Trying not to worry.
| 384 |
Gus Mon, Aug 8, 2011 1:19:00pm |
re: #382 Lidane
My poorly written post and any quotes of it, I suspect.
It’s all good. I should have thought things through a bit more before hitting the post button. *shrug*
Hmmm. OK. :/
| 385 |
Randall Gross Mon, Aug 8, 2011 1:19:06pm |
re: #379 Gus 802
The usual things. When discussing warfare and strategy non specific speculation can easily be misinterpreted.
| 386 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Mon, Aug 8, 2011 1:19:37pm |
So a suspected drug dealer was killed in a mutual fire between him and the police, and this causes mass riots? Why?
| 387 |
Lidane Mon, Aug 8, 2011 1:20:54pm |
re: #386 Sergey Romanov
So a suspected drug dealer was killed in a mutual fire between him and the police, and this causes mass riots? Why?
I’m wondering that myself. I don’t understand what’s going on. Plus, this fire is horrific. Wow.
| 388 |
allegro Mon, Aug 8, 2011 1:20:55pm |
re: #386 Sergey Romanov
So a suspected drug dealer was killed in a mutual fire between him and the police, and this causes mass riots? Why?
A spark in tinder.
| 389 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Mon, Aug 8, 2011 1:21:30pm |
re: #388 allegro
Of what?
| 390 |
ProBosniaLiberal Mon, Aug 8, 2011 1:21:47pm |
re: #386 Sergey Romanov
Because there have been problems between the police and minority community in the area for a while. Combined with overall neglect and the fact that the safety net they need is being slashed, they were angry.
This was the straw that broke the camel’s back.
| 391 |
Alexzander Mon, Aug 8, 2011 1:22:00pm |
re: #386 Sergey Romanov
So a suspected drug dealer was killed in a mutual fire between him and the police, and this causes mass riots? Why?
Well some of the story is disputed.
Most of this tension was under the surface for a long time. Think Rodney King riots.
| 392 |
allegro Mon, Aug 8, 2011 1:23:25pm |
re: #389 Sergey Romanov
Of what?
When you have a lot of parched material, ie tinder, a spark of most any kind can set it into flames. Kinda what ProLifeLiberal described in 390 perhaps.
| 393 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Mon, Aug 8, 2011 1:23:25pm |
re: #390 ProLifeLiberal
So why exactly do they loot other people’s livelihood? I hope each and every thug is arrested.
| 394 |
Alexzander Mon, Aug 8, 2011 1:23:30pm |
re: #390 ProLifeLiberal
Because there have been problems between the police and minority community in the area for a while. Combined with overall neglect and the fact that the safety net they need is being slashed, they were angry.
This was the straw that broke the camel’s back.
Exactly.
| 395 |
wrenchwench Mon, Aug 8, 2011 1:25:12pm |
Hey cult mignons, honcos and freeks! What’s happening?
I just spent $1200 ordering stuff to make a bicycle for a retiree. It’s too late for her to change her mind now!
Fortunately, the bike happens to be my size, which will be handy if she doesn’t pay it off and pick it up.
| 396 |
Alexzander Mon, Aug 8, 2011 1:26:02pm |
re: #393 Sergey Romanov
So why exactly do they loot other people’s livelihood? I hope each and every thug is arrested.
For some, its a just act of class war. Think Robin Hood.
For others, the nihilist ones who aren’t acting out of any political orientation, its mindless opportunism.
| 397 |
goddamnedfrank Mon, Aug 8, 2011 1:26:05pm |
re: #391 Alexzander
Well some of the story is disputed.
Most of this tension was under the surface for a long time. Think Rodney King riots.
I still think this makes the 1992 LA riots look well reasoned in comparison.
| 398 |
ProBosniaLiberal Mon, Aug 8, 2011 1:26:45pm |
re: #394 Alexzander
And now in Birmingham.
You would be surprised what you will learn by reading News Articles and Wikipedia.
| 399 |
Feline Fearless Leader Mon, Aug 8, 2011 1:26:52pm |
re: #393 Sergey Romanov
So why exactly do they loot other people’s livelihood? I hope each and every thug is arrested.
Because mobs have little intellectual ability*. And those who take advantage of riots/disturbances to loot have no scruples.
IQ of a committee = Lowest IQ of any member divided by the number of members on the committee. Since mobs are essentially also running on a lot of pent up emotion they’re even worse than that.
| 400 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Mon, Aug 8, 2011 1:27:44pm |
re: #396 Alexzander
Well, I hope the jail awaits them. I never understood jerks who need to destroy things in order to make a point. I see nothing Robin-Hoodish about that.
| 401 |
NJDhockeyfan Mon, Aug 8, 2011 1:28:12pm |
I just saw what happened on Wall Street. Holy cow!
| 402 |
lawhawk Mon, Aug 8, 2011 1:29:10pm |
re: #394 Alexzander
Some of the rioting since the first night is being considered to be a copycat in nature, rather than any real grievance.
I’m not so sure about that, but here’s a timeline of events, starting with the shooting of Mark Duggan.
| 403 |
Alexzander Mon, Aug 8, 2011 1:29:24pm |
re: #400 Sergey Romanov
Well, I hope the jail awaits them. I never understood jerks who need to destroy things in order to make a point. I see nothing Robin-Hoodish about that.
London has a CCTV camera on most city streets. I would expect hundreds of arrests over the next month.
| 404 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Mon, Aug 8, 2011 1:29:56pm |
re: #403 Alexzander
Good.
| 405 |
Kragar Mon, Aug 8, 2011 1:30:48pm |
re: #397 goddamnedfrank
I still think this makes the 1992 LA riots look well reasoned in comparison.
| 406 |
Lidane Mon, Aug 8, 2011 1:30:56pm |
re: #401 NJDhockeyfan
I just saw what happened on Wall Street. Holy cow!
Just imagine what will happen if Moody’s and Fitch follow S&P’s lead.
| 407 |
NJDhockeyfan Mon, Aug 8, 2011 1:32:09pm |
re: #406 Lidane
Just imagine what will happen if Moody’s and Fitch follow S&P’s lead.
“This is some fucked-up repugnant shit. ”
~ Jules Winnfield
| 408 |
Alexzander Mon, Aug 8, 2011 1:32:52pm |
re: #404 Sergey Romanov
Good.
They will likely do two things to identify people:
1. Use facial recognition technology loaned from banks. This was used after the G20 in Toronto and the rioting in Vancouver following the stanley cup.
2. The public. Expect hundreds of photos of faces given out to the public for identification.
| 409 |
iossarian Mon, Aug 8, 2011 1:33:38pm |
I, for one, hope that the older generation’s response to a younger generation with no realistic prospects of making their way through life on a level playing field, is to throw the lot of them in jail.
Good riddance to bad rubbish.
///
| 410 |
engineer cat Mon, Aug 8, 2011 1:34:03pm |
Borrowing money to spend on new entitlement programs does not save us money. It costs us money.
borrowing money is expensive, but money spent on social security and medicare does not disappear from the economy when it is spent by the government
it circulates throughout the economy, stimulating commerce and leading to more growth
that’s why governments need to borrow money during a recession
| 411 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Mon, Aug 8, 2011 1:34:48pm |
re: #409 iossarian
Yeah, because such riots should be forgiven because the kids are poor or whatever. ///
| 412 |
iossarian Mon, Aug 8, 2011 1:34:55pm |
If only these young people would show some bootstrappiness and make things better in the world around them!
| 413 |
iossarian Mon, Aug 8, 2011 1:35:28pm |
re: #411 Sergey Romanov
Yeah, because such riots should be forgiven because the kids are poor or whatever. ///
Haha.
“Forgiven” doesn’t mean anything. Those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it, etc.
| 414 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Mon, Aug 8, 2011 1:36:21pm |
re: #413 iossarian
Haha.
“Forgiven” doesn’t mean anything.
That’s apparently what you wish should happen. Turn the blind eye to the criminals.
| 415 |
BishopX Mon, Aug 8, 2011 1:37:06pm |
re: #403 Alexzander
They’ve arrested 215 so far…It seems like the origanal police strategy was to contain the rioters and film them, then arrest them later rather than confronting the rioters. My guess is that this was an attempt to avoid further police/community violence. The downside of this tactic seems to be the perception that the police aren’t actually stopping anything….which only encourages the rioters.
| 416 |
iossarian Mon, Aug 8, 2011 1:37:48pm |
re: #414 Sergey Romanov
That’s apparently what you wish should happen. Turn the blind eye to the criminals.
Look, here’s what I’m saying: if you build a society in which 40% of young people (or whatever) are unemployed, but you let a few lucky people earn astronomical sums of money and pass their privilege on, unimpeded, to their offspring, you’re going to get rioting.
That’s just human nature. And history suggests that throwing lots of people in jail is a short-term solution at best.
| 417 |
Feline Fearless Leader Mon, Aug 8, 2011 1:38:33pm |
re: #411 Sergey Romanov
Yeah, because such riots should be forgiven because the kids are poor or whatever. ///
Perhaps Ludovico technique on a few volunteers and recruit the rest of the poor droogs into the police force itself.
//
| 418 |
Interesting Times Mon, Aug 8, 2011 1:38:38pm |
I want to like this song because it’s a good song, not because its lyrics are so creepily relevant to current events :(
| 419 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Mon, Aug 8, 2011 1:38:59pm |
re: #416 iossarian
Nobody says throwing them into jail is the solution to all social ills. However, that is unavoidable.
| 420 |
Alexzander Mon, Aug 8, 2011 1:39:30pm |
re: #415 BishopX
They’ve arrested 215 so far…It seems like the origanal police strategy was to contain the rioters and film them, then arrest them later rather than confronting the rioters. My guess is that this was an attempt to avoid further police/community violence. The downside of this tactic seems to be the perception that the police aren’t actually stopping anything…which only encourages the rioters.
During the G20 in Toronto the police eventually went into full on arrest mode and arrested everyone. They arrested over 1000 people and only charged about 25 in the end. It basically ruined the reputation of the Toronto police force.
| 421 |
iossarian Mon, Aug 8, 2011 1:40:01pm |
re: #419 Sergey Romanov
Nobody says throwing them into jail is the solution to all social ills. However, that is unavoidable.
I’ll support mass jailing as soon as one of the Murdoch executives (or better yet family members) is behind bars, how’s that?
| 422 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Mon, Aug 8, 2011 1:41:06pm |
re: #421 iossarian
I’ll support mass jailing as soon as one of the Murdoch executives (or better yet family members) is behind bars, how’s that?
How’s that? That’s demagoguery.
| 424 |
iossarian Mon, Aug 8, 2011 1:42:09pm |
re: #422 Sergey Romanov
How’s that? That’s demagoguery.
Why expedite one case and not the other? That’s oligarchism.
| 425 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Mon, Aug 8, 2011 1:42:44pm |
re: #424 iossarian
Why expedite one case and not the other? That’s oligarchism.
No, just follow the law.
| 426 |
Alexzander Mon, Aug 8, 2011 1:43:09pm |
S&P 500 closes down 80 points, 4th-worst post loss ever and 10th-worst percentage loss (-6.65%).
| 427 |
jaunte Mon, Aug 8, 2011 1:43:48pm |
Andy Carvin tweets:
Can the London rioters complete the following sentence: “The people demand ___.”
| 428 |
Kragar Mon, Aug 8, 2011 1:43:51pm |
Bryan Fischer uses logic again, hilarity ensues
Israel doesn’t use the “anno domini” (year of our Lord) dating system on its official documents for one simple reason: it’s not a Christian nation. None of the 57 nations in the Muslim world use the anno domini dating system for one simple reason: they’re not Christian nations. We use the anno domini dating system because we are.
| 429 |
iossarian Mon, Aug 8, 2011 1:44:47pm |
re: #425 Sergey Romanov
No, just follow the law.
Brilliant. I hereby nominate you as chief intermediary between the police and representatives of the Tottenham/Brixton/Croydon communities.
You’ll go down like a house on fire.
| 430 |
Lidane Mon, Aug 8, 2011 1:45:34pm |
re: #428 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
Heh.
Personally, I prefer B.C.E. and C.E. Of course, I’m not a Christian either.
| 432 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Mon, Aug 8, 2011 1:46:05pm |
re: #429 iossarian
Brilliant. I hereby nominate you as chief intermediary between the police and representatives of the Tottenham/Brixton/Croydon communities.
You’ll go down like a house on fire.
?
| 433 |
Political Atheist Mon, Aug 8, 2011 1:46:07pm |
re: #416 iossarian
Look, here’s what I’m saying: if you build a society in which 40% of young people (or whatever) are unemployed, but you let a few lucky people earn astronomical sums of money and pass their privilege on, unimpeded, to their offspring, you’re going to get rioting.
That’s just human nature. And history suggests that throwing lots of people in jail is a short-term solution at best.
You say that like it was some evil plan to construct the society just like that. And as if estate/death taxation has some societal / moral imperative to redistribute the family wealth. I don’t get either point really. Criminals get put in jail. Rioters (certainly the destructive violent ones) are dangerous criminals. Ergo jail time. Lots of folks manage to protest without rioting.
| 434 |
iossarian Mon, Aug 8, 2011 1:46:19pm |
re: #427 jaunte
Andy Carvin tweets:
They might not be willing to fill in that hugely condescending blank, but if they all had decent jobs and a fair chance to make their way in life, you’d have a lot less rioting, that’s for damn sure.
| 435 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Mon, Aug 8, 2011 1:48:36pm |
Sympathy for downtrodden shouldn’t transform into sympathy for criminals, is all I’m saying.
| 436 |
Political Atheist Mon, Aug 8, 2011 1:48:58pm |
re: #435 Sergey Romanov
Sympathy for downtrodden shouldn’t transform into sympathy for criminals, is all I’m saying.
This.
| 437 |
iossarian Mon, Aug 8, 2011 1:51:08pm |
re: #435 Sergey Romanov
Sympathy for downtrodden shouldn’t transform into sympathy for criminals, is all I’m saying.
Who gets to choose which set of laws is the right one, though?
I would personally prefer a set of laws that came down harder on corporate criminals and was more lenient on disaffected youths.
| 439 |
Kragar Mon, Aug 8, 2011 1:53:58pm |
re: #437 iossarian
Who gets to choose which set of laws is the right one, though?
I would personally prefer a set of laws that came down harder on corporate criminals and was more lenient on disaffected youths.
Almost sound like there is something wrong with a system where you can steal $50 million and get 2 years in minimum security prison or $500 and get stuck in maximum security for 10-15.
/
| 440 |
Political Atheist Mon, Aug 8, 2011 1:54:06pm |
re: #437 iossarian
Violent crimes get longer sentences for very valid reasons.
| 441 |
iossarian Mon, Aug 8, 2011 1:55:24pm |
re: #440 Rightwingconspirator
Violent crimes get longer sentences for very valid reasons.
Yes, because violence is the tool of poor people, whereas rich people can just steal vast sums of money without using much violence at all (or by paying poor people to carry it out for them).
| 442 |
jaunte Mon, Aug 8, 2011 1:55:32pm |
| 443 |
Political Atheist Mon, Aug 8, 2011 1:56:20pm |
re: #439 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
If you write a bad check to steal that money it’s probation. Pistol whip somebody to steal that money and I hope the criminal gets many years. It’s not about the amount of money in jurisprudence. Society values violence as a thing far worse than non violent crimes.
| 444 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Mon, Aug 8, 2011 1:56:31pm |
re: #437 iossarian
Who gets to choose which set of laws is the right one, though?
I would personally prefer a set of laws that came down harder on corporate criminals and was more lenient on disaffected youths.
How about, the laws stay the same for so-called “disaffected youths” and are set more stringent for corporate criminals, whose confiscated money goes for re-education of the said youths?
| 445 |
Eventual Carrion Mon, Aug 8, 2011 1:59:42pm |
re: #260 RogueOne
2008: $2.9T
2011: $3.8T[Link: en.wikipedia.org…]
[Link: en.wikipedia.org…]
How much was borrowed OFF BUDGET to pay for the wars in 2008. By 2011 they are/were “on the books”.
| 446 |
Eventual Carrion Mon, Aug 8, 2011 2:01:03pm |
re: #265 RogueOne
cutting spending would be bad but raising taxes would be good? How about we find a nice middle ground. As I’ve already pointed out, we’ve increased spending by a trillion dollars/year in a short 3 years. I’m fairly certain we should be able to come up with a crappy $400 billion/year to cut.
How much was spent “OFF BUDGET” in 2008 for the wars?
| 447 |
iossarian Mon, Aug 8, 2011 2:01:07pm |
re: #444 Sergey Romanov
How about, the laws stay the same for so-called “disaffected youths” and are set more stringent for corporate criminals, whose confiscated money goes for re-education of the said youths?
Sounds good to me, we’re talking about the relative punishments meted out after all.
Policies which are, of course, the exact opposite of the trend observed over the past 30 years.
| 448 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Mon, Aug 8, 2011 2:01:39pm |
re: #447 iossarian
True.
| 449 |
Political Atheist Mon, Aug 8, 2011 2:01:51pm |
re: #441 iossarian
Yes, because violence is the tool of poor people, whereas rich people can just steal vast sums of money without using much violence at all (or by paying poor people to carry it out for them).
Violence is the tool of the foolish & desperate of every income level. It’s a moral distinction, not an economic one.
| 450 |
iossarian Mon, Aug 8, 2011 2:02:32pm |
re: #443 Rightwingconspirator
If you write a bad check to steal that money it’s probation. Pistol whip somebody to steal that money and I hope the criminal gets many years. It’s not about the amount of money in jurisprudence. Society values violence as a thing far worse than non violent crimes.
What if you steal $50M from your company’s pension fund, causing a 10% rise in cases of domestic abuse in your ex-employees?
| 451 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Mon, Aug 8, 2011 2:03:02pm |
re: #449 Rightwingconspirator
Violence is the tool of the foolish & desperate of every income level. It’s a moral distinction, not an economic one.
As Vladimir Ilyich Lenin taught us, a rock is a weapon of the proletariat. /
| 452 |
iossarian Mon, Aug 8, 2011 2:05:50pm |
re: #451 Sergey Romanov
As Vladimir Ilyich Lenin taught us, a rock is a weapon of the proletariat. /
Which is worse, a guy who beats up his neighbor, or a company boss who successfully lobbies against a law requiring companies to provide affordable health insurance for the children of their employees?
| 453 |
garhighway Mon, Aug 8, 2011 2:06:01pm |
re: #438 SpaceJesus
this rules
[Video]
“Tax revenues as a percentage of the economy at at their lowest level in 60 years.”
Funny, you never hear that from Paul Ryan.
| 454 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Mon, Aug 8, 2011 2:07:42pm |
re: #452 iossarian
Which is worse, a guy who beats up his neighbor, or a company boss who successfully lobbies against a law requiring companies to provide affordable health insurance for the children of their employees?
As Iosif Vissarionovich Stalin taught us, both are worse. ///
| 455 |
Political Atheist Mon, Aug 8, 2011 2:08:56pm |
re: #450 iossarian
Geez what a cherry pick scenario. But ok.
The person that steals the money is guilty of theft. The man that hits his wife with a bat because his pension shrank is guilty of assault with a deadly weapon. 2 crimes, 2 men up for jail if convicted.
Try these scenarios.
What of the man who steals money from some insurance company because he is poor, making all of the rest of us overpay for our responsibilities?
Or the kid who steals his music becuse his part time job or allowance is not up to his expectations? Lets hear it for raising white collar crime sentences to violent crime levels. Wheee! Start building more jails.
| 456 |
Eventual Carrion Mon, Aug 8, 2011 2:13:39pm |
re: #311 RogueOne
The president said in June that the cost of both wars was roughly $1trillion…since 2001. If you take it out of the budget ($100B/yr)we’re still spending $800billion a year more now than in ‘08.
“In the 10 years since U.S. troops went into Afghanistan to root out the al Qaeda leaders behind the September 11, 2001, attacks, spending on the conflicts totaled $2.3 trillion to $2.7 trillion.”
[Link: www.reuters.com…]
| 457 |
iossarian Mon, Aug 8, 2011 2:14:16pm |
re: #455 Rightwingconspirator
Fine, lock up the rioters, but if you’re averse to “building more jails”, you’d better at least pay some attention to why these kids feel that their lives are worthless enough to go around setting fire to buildings, because otherwise, yes, you’re going to have to build more jails.
| 458 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Mon, Aug 8, 2011 2:16:08pm |
re: #457 iossarian
Fine, lock up the rioters, but if you’re averse to “building more jails”, you’d better at least pay some attention to why these kids feel that their lives are worthless enough to go around setting fire to buildings, because otherwise, yes, you’re going to have to build more jails.
Again, you’re saying this as if we’re ignoring the underlying causes. We don’t. We just don’t think that such causes excuse this behavior.
| 459 |
iossarian Mon, Aug 8, 2011 2:20:52pm |
re: #458 Sergey Romanov
Again, you’re saying this as if we’re ignoring the underlying causes. We don’t. We just don’t think that such causes excuse this behavior.
Yes, but note that “they should all be locked up” applies equally to the Murdoch bastards, yet calling for that is “demagoguery”.
| 460 |
iossarian Mon, Aug 8, 2011 2:24:04pm |
BTW, regarding the ease of locking up rioters due to CCTV footage, I note that Rebekah Brooks is on camera admitting to paying the police for information while at the News of the World, which is illegal.
Why is she not in jail?
In any case, I have to run now. Bye!
| 461 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Mon, Aug 8, 2011 2:24:42pm |
re: #459 iossarian
Yes, but note that “they should all be locked up” applies equally to the Murdoch bastards, yet calling for that is “demagoguery”.
Uh, no. Demagoguery is 1) knee-jerk bringing up Murdoch people in the first place, as if there are any defenders here or as if their case is somehow relevant; 2) demanding that they be dealt with first, and only then the rioters.
PS: They should all be locked up. Not “first” or “second”, but as the law dictates. And yes, I do hope Murdoch’s people spend lots of time in prison.
| 462 |
Political Atheist Mon, Aug 8, 2011 2:25:20pm |
re: #457 iossarian
If these kids are acting violent over all these great societal ills, why did they wait for a cop shooting to get violent and riot? Societies efforts at help for the poor will always be imperfect and in some ways inadequate.
Looking at what British and American society does to try to improve those lives should not be dismissed for its imperfections or these riots. Schools, general relief, food stamps etc. Oh and just how did the LA riots improve the lives of the people involved? How improved will lives be by these London riots?
| 463 |
b_sharp Mon, Aug 8, 2011 2:47:27pm |
re: #443 Rightwingconspirator
If you write a bad check to steal that money it’s probation. Pistol whip somebody to steal that money and I hope the criminal gets many years. It’s not about the amount of money in jurisprudence. Society values violence as a thing far worse than non violent crimes.
OK.
An exec steals money and bankrupts a company, a worker commits suicide. Is that violence?
| 464 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Mon, Aug 8, 2011 3:09:12pm |
And this stuff about Mormonism… I dunno. I think situation is such that they will vote for Romney despite this, especially if he picks a true-blu Christian VP.
| 465 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Mon, Aug 8, 2011 3:09:34pm |
wrong thread
| 466 |
abolitionist Mon, Aug 8, 2011 3:20:44pm |
re: #109 Gus 802
If someone is driving a car and the backseat passenger screams, “look out for that dog in the middle of the street!” and he drives into a line of parked cars the driver will get the ticket not the passenger.
I hope you didn’t learn that the hard way.
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