Classic Romney Moment: 'Corporations Are People, My Friend'

Is this the same guy who bought a bunch of struggling corporations (slavery!) and then sold off the assets (a whole bunch of people ~~lost their jobs~~ got sold down the fucking river)?

Gus Thu, Aug 11, 2011 10:45:46am

What does this mean for corporate abortions then? When is a corporate zygote a person?

jaunte Thu, Aug 11, 2011 10:46:07am

People...
people veiling people...
(who're the luckiest people in the world).

Varek Raith Thu, Aug 11, 2011 10:47:30am

Stupid Supreme Court.

Gus Thu, Aug 11, 2011 10:47:33am

Soylent Green are people...

My friend.

Does this mean that the "Soylent Green Corporation" are people too?

HappyWarrior Thu, Aug 11, 2011 10:47:43am

Is it okay to marry a corporation or does the corporation have to be of the opposite sex? Really, could Mitt be any more of a corporate shrill then he already is? Yes, he's technically correct but it is amusing he says this while he's signed a pledge that seeks to limit the right of marriage of actual people.

zora Thu, Aug 11, 2011 10:49:53am

jon huntsman's spokesman tweeted: .@ericfehrn Was American Pad & Paper Company a person/friend?

[Link: twitter.com...]

Targetpractice Thu, Aug 11, 2011 10:50:07am

re: #2 publicityStunted

Wonderful! So when can we charge BP and Massey Energy for negligent homicide?

Hey now, Mittens only means corporations are people for the purposes of running hundreds of ads in favor of his campaign later this year and next. He didn't mean that they should actually be held responsible for their actions. That just ain't right!

Shiplord Kirel Thu, Aug 11, 2011 10:50:45am

Romney will nail down the nomination. As I pointed out in the previous thread, Goodhair is also a simon-pure corporate shill but Romney is better at it and has more broad-based corporate support. That is all that counts in today's GOP.

Killgore Trout Thu, Aug 11, 2011 10:50:54am

Wow, the crowd laughs at him. Tough room.

wrenchwench Thu, Aug 11, 2011 10:51:13am

"People", ok. Definitely not "human beings". There's a difference between "legal personhood" and an actual human being. Does he not get that?

mr.fusion Thu, Aug 11, 2011 10:51:15am

As ridiculous as the "corporations are people too" comment is, this is the one that really sticks in my craw:

There was a time in this country where we didn't celebrate attacking people based on their success. We didn't go after people because they were successful.

CEO's are now making 400 times what their employees make.........a generation ago it was 40 times what their employees made. Maybe we didn't go after them, because the business community didn't look at the American economy as a giant cash grab?

Gus Thu, Aug 11, 2011 10:51:31am

re: #10 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

Hey now, Mittens only means corporations are people for the purposes of running hundreds of ads in favor of his campaign later this year and next. He didn't mean that they should actually be held responsible for their actions. That just ain't right!

/

Right to privacy...

Sol Berdinowitz Thu, Aug 11, 2011 10:51:41am

America loves rugged individualism. Including the right of a rugged individual to negotiate with other rugged corporate individuals over health insurance, employment or to try and sue them in court...

Feline Fearless Leader Thu, Aug 11, 2011 10:52:32am

Heh. Nice to see some justice occur now and then. The county judge in PA that was getting kickbacks for sentencing kids to for-profit juvenile detention centers got 28 years.

MSNBC Video

jamesfirecat Thu, Aug 11, 2011 10:52:33am

But when can people become Corporations?

Killgore Trout Thu, Aug 11, 2011 10:52:58am

re: #11 Shiplord Kirel

Romney will nail down the nomination. As I pointed out in the previous thread, Goodhair is also a simon-pure corporate shill but Romney is better at it and has more broad-based corporate support. That is all that counts in today's GOP.

Probably. To balance out the ticket he'll pick a radical/Reality show star as a running mate to appeal to the base. They might as well run McCain-Palin again.

Gus Thu, Aug 11, 2011 10:53:26am

re: #16 ralphieboy

America loves rugged individualism. Including the right of a rugged individual to negotiate with other rugged corporate individuals over health insurance, employment or to try and sue them in court...

Yes. But in America corporations and the individual have an equal footing in a court of law.

Gus Thu, Aug 11, 2011 10:54:15am

re: #19 Killgore Trout

Probably. To balance out the ticket he'll pick a radical/Reality show star as a running mate to appeal to the base. They might as well run McCain-Palin again.

Romney-Haley

Killgore Trout Thu, Aug 11, 2011 10:54:27am

Romney at fair meeting some corporations
[Link: s3.amazonaws.com...]

jaunte Thu, Aug 11, 2011 10:55:15am

re: #14 mr.fusion

There was a time in this country where we didn't celebrate attacking people based on their success. We didn't go after people because they were successful.

Consider that in context with the Bain Capital / Ampad deal:

· 1992: Bain buys American Pad & Paper from Mead Corp. They invest $5 million.

· 1993: After Bain takes control, Ampad pays advisory fees to Bain under a management agreement.

· 1994: Bain acquires plant in Marion, Ind. Workers strike over layoffs and wage benefit cuts. The events become a campaign issue in Romney's challenge to Senator Edward M. Kennedy.

· 1995: Bain shuts down the Marion, Ind., plant. Roughly 200 lose jobs. Bain gets at least $2 million in annual fees, plus additional fees for each acquisition Ampad makes. Ampad borrows more to acquire an envelope and stationery maker and uses some of the proceeds, about $60 million, to pay Bain investors.

· 1996: Ampad completes an initial public offering. Bain sells about 3 million shares, reaping about $45 million to $50 million for investors and itself. It also takes $2 million in fees for arranging the IPO, plus other fees.

· 1998: With Ampad struggling, Bain agrees to cut the annual fee $1.5 million a year. It also agrees to start forgoing payment until the company turns around.

· 1999: Revenues continue to slide. Ampad closes a plant near Buffalo, with up to 185 losing jobs.

· 2000: Creditors force Ampad into Chapter 11 bankruptcy to reorganize.

· 2001: Judge puts Ampad into Chapter 7 to liquidate assets and pay creditors. Senior secured lenders get less than 50 cents on the dollar.

Killgore Trout Thu, Aug 11, 2011 10:55:38am

re: #21 Gus 802

Romney-Haley

I'll guess Bachmann or Cain.

Targetpractice Thu, Aug 11, 2011 10:56:21am

re: #11 Shiplord Kirel

Romney will nail down the nomination. As I pointed out in the previous thread, Goodhair is also a simon-pure corporate shill but Romney is better at it and has more broad-based corporate support. That is all that counts in today's GOP.

Have to respectfully disagree. Against Perry, Romney's got two disadvantages, the first being that he's dishwater dull, the second being that he's going to also run against Gov. Romney as well. Look for Romneycare to be brought up against tonight. Perry comes off sounding genuine, the guy who seriously believes what he's saying, while Romney sounds like a used car salesman, changing his pitch at the drop of a hat.

Gus Thu, Aug 11, 2011 10:56:34am

re: #24 Killgore Trout

I'll guess Bachmann or Cain.

Where the bullet meets the foot. Yeah, they would do something that stupid. Better for Obama.

HappyWarrior Thu, Aug 11, 2011 10:56:52am

re: #14 mr.fusion

As ridiculous as the "corporations are people too" comment is, this is the one that really sticks in my craw:

CEO's are now making 400 times what their employees make...a generation ago it was 40 times what their employees made. Maybe we didn't go after them, because the business community didn't look at the American economy as a giant cash grab?

Yep, and the fact that companies weren't going overseas first opportunity just so they would have to pay less on their taxes. And you know, Mitt knows this, his father was an exec at GM and GM during George Romney's tenure actually had decent relations with the UAW. My grandfather was a labor arbitrator at the NLRB for many years and he knew Walter Reuther and I imagine he met George Romney too though I don't know for certain since I never knew my grandfather but Mitt's father wasn't the corporate profits at all costs guy his son is.

HappyWarrior Thu, Aug 11, 2011 10:57:53am

re: #23 jaunte

Consider that in context with the Bain Capital / Ampad deal:

That Mitt, he's a real "job creator."

Sol Berdinowitz Thu, Aug 11, 2011 10:58:25am

re: #20 Gus 802

Yes. But in America corporations and the individual have an equal footing in a court of law.

//

and they have corporate assets and legal depqartments.

Shiplord Kirel Thu, Aug 11, 2011 10:58:28am

re: #24 Killgore Trout

I'll guess Bachmann or Cain.

Cain is a pretty good bet. One rather crass, but real problem with Perry is that he look too much like Romney. Comedians would have a field day making the goodhair (lower case this time) twins look ridiculous.

Gus Thu, Aug 11, 2011 10:59:33am

re: #30 Shiplord Kirel

Cain is a pretty good bet. One rather crass, but real problem with Perry is that he look too much like Romney. Comedians would have a field day making the goodhair (lower case this time) twins look ridiculous.

What happened to that Cain "Muslim Brotherhood" thing?

Killgore Trout Thu, Aug 11, 2011 10:59:39am

Braaiiinnnssss!
[Link: www.daylife.com...]

Targetpractice Thu, Aug 11, 2011 11:00:11am

re: #30 Shiplord Kirel

Cain is a pretty good bet. One rather crass, but real problem with Perry is that he look too much like Romney. Comedians would have a field day making the goodhair (lower case this time) twins look ridiculous.

Heh, a Perry/Cain ticket against an Obama/Biden ticket would be hilarious. A charismatic black Pres with a white gaffe-prone VP versus a charismatic white Pres candidate with a a black gaffe-prone VP candidate.

HappyWarrior Thu, Aug 11, 2011 11:00:27am

re: #25 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

Have to respectfully disagree. Against Perry, Romney's got two disadvantages, the first being that he's dishwater dull, the second being that he's going to also run against Gov. Romney as well. Look for Romneycare to be brought up against tonight. Perry comes off sounding genuine, the guy who seriously believes what he's saying, while Romney sounds like a used car salesman, changing his pitch at the drop of a hat.

This is exactly how I feel, plus s I've said, I think Mitt's style is just too corporate, they're going to want someone who is more of a populist to go against Obama. Populist in style this is.

lawhawk Thu, Aug 11, 2011 11:02:16am

re: #32 Killgore Trout

Braaiiinnnsss!
[Link: www.daylife.com...]

Mola Ram, you're doing it wrong.. it's like this:

Youtube Video

Bulworth Thu, Aug 11, 2011 11:02:48am

"There was a time in this country where we didn't celebrate attacking people based on their success. We didn't go after people because they were successful."

Did he have some examples of "successful" people corporations we should emulate? Bear Stearns? AGI?

mr.fusion Thu, Aug 11, 2011 11:03:16am

re: #27 HappyWarrior

Yep, and the fact that companies weren't going overseas first opportunity just so they would have to pay less on their taxes. And you know, Mitt knows this, his father was an exec at GM and GM during George Romney's tenure actually had decent relations with the UAW. My grandfather was a labor arbitrator at the NLRB for many years and he knew Walter Reuther and I imagine he met George Romney too though I don't know for certain since I never knew my grandfather but Mitt's father wasn't the corporate profits at all costs guy his son is.

The reason why we never saw people wanting to "punish" the business community is because the business community used to act like this:

Link

In 1905, when Henry Ford paid his workers the unheard of high wage of $5 per day, it wasn't simply out of generosity. It was because he was investing in the prosperity of the very people he needed to be his customers for the new mass-produced Model T.

It's a concept known today as "shared value creation" -- a strategy for aligning a company's long-term business success with the success of the people and places in which it operates and on which it depends.

We don't have that anymore. It's gone, and the John Galt wannabe's we have running our economy right now have no interest in restoring it.

Gus Thu, Aug 11, 2011 11:03:46am

re: #34 HappyWarrior

This is exactly how I feel, plus s I've said, I think Mitt's style is just too corporate, they're going to want someone who is more of a populist to go against Obama. Populist in style this is.

Romney ran in 2008. He failed rather miserably. So as far as a track record...

Shiplord Kirel Thu, Aug 11, 2011 11:03:48am

re: #25 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

Have to respectfully disagree. Against Perry, Romney's got two disadvantages, the first being that he's dishwater dull, the second being that he's going to also run against Gov. Romney as well. Look for Romneycare to be brought up against tonight. Perry comes off sounding genuine, the guy who seriously believes what he's saying, while Romney sounds like a used car salesman, changing his pitch at the drop of a hat.

I think Perry projects sincerity to the national audience now, but that will erode as non-Texas voters become more familiar with him. Here in Texas, he is regarded as a charlatan and a poseur even by some of his supporters. In any case, the Romney forces have many avenues of attack against his sincere image, and they will make it a priority.

Bulworth Thu, Aug 11, 2011 11:03:55am

VP will be Rubio.

Gus Thu, Aug 11, 2011 11:05:08am

re: #40 Bulworth

VP will be Rubio.

I think it will be a brunette. /

Seriously though. I think "Rubio" might be too "ethnic" for the base.

mr.fusion Thu, Aug 11, 2011 11:05:10am

re: #36 Bulworth

"There was a time in this country where we didn't celebrate attacking people based on their success. We didn't go after people because they were successful."

Did he have some examples of "successful" people corporations we should emulate? Bear Stearns? AGI?

And another thing that pisses me off about this statement is the assumption that giant paycheck = success.

Is Paris Hilton more "successful" than a kindergarten teacher? A hedge fund manager more "successful" than a firefighter? A pro-basketball player more "successful" than a single mother working two jobs just to provide?

Killgore Trout Thu, Aug 11, 2011 11:05:28am

President Obama Hosts an Iftar Dinner to Celebrate Ramadan (video)
Jihad!

HappyWarrior Thu, Aug 11, 2011 11:05:42am

Okay, Mitt, so it's attacking them for their success but what about rich companies that do all they can to avoid paying taxes. That is greed and I am not gonna sugarcoat it. All that's been proposed is bringing back tax brackets to the 90's level which was agreed upon interestingly by Republicans but since Congressional Republicans today care more about being the servants of Grover Norquist than they do the American people. Oh and businesses weren't ruined in the 90's when taxes were like that. Businesses boomed but Mitt knows that.

Gus Thu, Aug 11, 2011 11:05:51am

re: #43 Killgore Trout

President Obama Hosts an Iftar Dinner to Celebrate Ramadan (video)
Jihad!

We're doomed!

Bulworth Thu, Aug 11, 2011 11:07:19am

re: #45 Gus 802

We're doomed!

Shariah!

HappyWarrior Thu, Aug 11, 2011 11:07:23am

re: #37 mr.fusion

The reason why we never saw people wanting to "punish" the business community is because the business community used to act like this:

Link

We don't have that anymore. It's gone, and the John Galt wannabe's we have running our economy right now have no interest in restoring it.

Yep pretty much. Business people and interests want to blame all their troubles on labor which I think is utterly intellectually lazy and dishonest. It's madness that the average CEO makes 400 times more than his worker. I am not a socialist but that is exactly what draws people in to socialist leanings.

Killgore Trout Thu, Aug 11, 2011 11:07:53am

re: #45 Gus 802

We're doomed!

Nice, he invited muslim 9-11 victims. Nice touch.

(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Thu, Aug 11, 2011 11:08:09am

Corporations are made up of people. Not the same people, over time, either. The people are, theoretically, interchangable. Thus, corporations are immortal.

Furthermore, corporations are not the people. Therein lies the rub: That the wealth of corporations (their CEOs and shareholders) exceeds more and more that of the average person in the population that is supposed to be the sovereign of the country providing for the laws that make corporations a possible (and profitable) legal concept to begin with.

(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Thu, Aug 11, 2011 11:08:41am

re: #46 Bulworth

Shariah!

//

Cultural Marxists!!!

Big Steve Thu, Aug 11, 2011 11:09:07am

re: #9 zora

jon huntsman's spokesman tweeted: .@ericfehrn Was American Pad & Paper Company a person/friend?

[Link: twitter.com...]

any utterances from Huntsman's campaign regarding corporations is the epitome of hypocrisy considering that John jr has been raised his whole life on money from one of the greediest corporations in the country.

Bulworth Thu, Aug 11, 2011 11:09:19am

And our wonderfully successful Galtian overlords have stunk up the joint for the past four years, especially. And we bailed out these "successful" peoplecorporations.

jaunte Thu, Aug 11, 2011 11:09:40am

re: #49 000G

Immortal, international people have some tax benefits the rest of us people don't share.

SanFranciscoZionist Thu, Aug 11, 2011 11:10:46am

re: #43 Killgore Trout

President Obama Hosts an Iftar Dinner to Celebrate Ramadan (video)
Jihad!

From the CSM, about White House Iftars.

(Was on a wingnut site not long ago where a person was vehemently insisting that Jefferson did NOT hold an "ishtar" at the White House.)

Gus Thu, Aug 11, 2011 11:10:52am

re: #52 Bulworth

And our wonderfully successful Galtian overlords have stunk up the joint for the past four years, especially. And we bailed out these "successful" peoplecorporations.

Heck. In this case then TARP and GM were beneficiaries to entitlement programs. Thus legitimizing the claims of corporate welfare.

SanFranciscoZionist Thu, Aug 11, 2011 11:11:06am

re: #46 Bulworth

Shariah!

//

But the food is probably pretty good.

Shiplord Kirel Thu, Aug 11, 2011 11:11:34am

re: #36 Bulworth

"There was a time in this country where we didn't celebrate attacking people based on their success. We didn't go after people because they were successful."

Did he have some examples of "successful" people corporations we should emulate? Bear Stearns? AGI?

What a dork. I wonder when this Golden Age of regard for the wealthy was? Certainly not in the time of Cornelius Vanderbilt and JP Morgan, both of whom were held at roughly the same level of public esteem as drug cartels today. Politicians made whole careers out of going after them. Teddy Roosevelt was helped by his image of monumental bad-assery but his most lasting appeal was as a trust-buster and opponent of privilege.

Gus Thu, Aug 11, 2011 11:11:43am

re: #56 SanFranciscoZionist

But the food is probably pretty good.

Rush Limbaugh will be counting calories. Again.

(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Thu, Aug 11, 2011 11:12:20am

re: #53 jaunte

Immortal, international people have some tax benefits the rest of us people don't share.

I really don't care about the international part so much; I have no beef with corporations being international (or people holding dual citizenship, either – why treat belonging to a country different than any other kind of club?). Maybe it's different from an American perspective, the USA having been the sovereign among sovereigns in the international community for so long now.

SanFranciscoZionist Thu, Aug 11, 2011 11:12:27am

re: #54 SanFranciscoZionist

From the CSM, about White House Iftars.

(Was on a wingnut site not long ago where a person was vehemently insisting that Jefferson did NOT hold an "ishtar" at the White House.)

I couldn't tell if he was confused about the words, or having spellcheck problems, or if it was supposed to be some sort of subtle insult.

HappyWarrior Thu, Aug 11, 2011 11:12:36am

re: #43 Killgore Trout

President Obama Hosts an Iftar Dinner to Celebrate Ramadan (video)
Jihad!

Shariah! Which reminds me, Obama's a big basketball fan, surprised he hasn't invited Kareem Abdul Jabbar to the WHI yet or maybe he has. I am sure that would get them fuming. KAJ is awesome this said. Just seems like a real chill guy and my Dad saw him play before he even joined Wooden's UCLA team since his school was playing out of state against the Catholic school my dad's brothers went to.

Targetpractice Thu, Aug 11, 2011 11:13:20am

re: #39 Shiplord Kirel

I think Perry projects sincerity to the national audience now, but that will erode as non-Texas voters become more familiar with him. Here in Texas, he is regarded as a charlatan and a poseur even by some of his supporters. In any case, the Romney forces have many avenues of attack against his sincere image, and they will make it a priority.

Think, in the end, Perry's negatives are going to weigh less than Romney's in the primaries. The big ones weighing down on Romney are Romneycare, his '08 run (the positions he's since flip-flopped on), his general lack of charisma, and his religion. The last being the big one after Perry's "The Response," which may turn off independent voters, but will sell big with the religious right.

Honestly, I think whoever loses the presidential spot is going to be set well to snag the VP spot, if only to balance out the ticket. Sort of the Kerry/Edwards route in '04.

Bulworth Thu, Aug 11, 2011 11:13:29am

There was also a time long ago in another wonderful America when teabag, I mean, patriotic Americans didn't root for large American auto companies to fail.

Atlas Fails Thu, Aug 11, 2011 11:13:41am

re: #14 mr.fusion

As ridiculous as the "corporations are people too" comment is, this is the one that really sticks in my craw:

CEO's are now making 400 times what their employees make...a generation ago it was 40 times what their employees made. Maybe we didn't go after them, because the business community didn't look at the American economy as a giant cash grab?

CLASS WARFARE!!!1!11ty

SanFranciscoZionist Thu, Aug 11, 2011 11:13:49am

re: #58 Gus 802

Rush Limbaugh will be counting calories. Again.

If I were president, my White House iftar would involve that amazing Moroccan chicken pie stuff that's all sweet, with the filo dough, OMG.

Then again, if I were president, that stuff might be Tuesday night dinner every week. Just because I had a kitchen staff and I could.

leftynyc Thu, Aug 11, 2011 11:14:53am

re: #41 Gus 802

I think it will be a brunette. /

Seriously though. I think "Rubio" might be too "ethnic" for the base.

Not only that. There are plenty of birthers out there who interpret the constitution as both parents having to be citizens at the time of the childs birth in order to qualify as a natural born citizen. Yeah, they're fruit loops but they're out there and they're all on the right.

Sol Berdinowitz Thu, Aug 11, 2011 11:16:55am

re: #62 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

I agree: Perry can easily walk away with the nomination; once he has positioned himself as "front runner", the GOP will smack down any internal criticism of him.

Then the formula will be simple: the worse the economy is doing, the more people are afraid for their safety, security and future, the better he will do in the general election.

Killgore Trout Thu, Aug 11, 2011 11:17:21am

Dow +412
The market is surely reacting to the inevitable Republican Presidency
/

Gus Thu, Aug 11, 2011 11:17:53am

re: #63 Bulworth

There was also a time long ago in another wonderful America when teabag, I mean, patriotic Americans didn't root for large American auto companies to fail.

There was. It happened right before Obama took office and Bush was handing out billions to GM and the right wingers barely noticed. Sort of like TARP. But now a lot of wingnuts think the GM bailout was largely an Obama creation and that Obama was the president behind TARP. They're confused and only reacting according to fear and partisanship. Bush bails out GM -- it's OK. Obama bails out GM -- not OK.

jaunte Thu, Aug 11, 2011 11:18:02am

re: #59 000G

I really don't care about the international part so much; I have no beef with corporations being international (or people holding dual citizenship, either – why treat belonging to a country different than any other kind of club?). Maybe it's different from an American perspective, the USA having been the sovereign among sovereigns in the international community for so long now.

I'm thinking mostly about the corporation's ability (unlike an individual) to shop the word for preferred tax rates.[Link: www.cbsnews.com...]

jaunte Thu, Aug 11, 2011 11:18:28am

re: #70 jaunte

Shop the 'world' that is...

zora Thu, Aug 11, 2011 11:19:02am

re: #51 Big Steve

Record of family’s global corporation follows Jon Huntsman Jr.

Huntsman’s corporate experience also carries political risks, however. Some of the products made by Huntsman Corp. have alarmed environmentalists and been phased out of the market. The $9 billion-a-year company has eliminated hundreds of U.S. jobs as it gradually shifts operations to Asia. And it has helped fund cancer research even as it stands accused of exposing communities near its manufacturing plants to cancer-causing and other harmful chemicals.

[Link: www.washingtonpost.com...]

(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Thu, Aug 11, 2011 11:20:13am

re: #64 Atlas Fails

CLASS WARFARE!!!1!11ty

Sometimes I think a big chunk of the American Right deliberately behaves like the evil exploiting capitalist out of communist propaganda, intentionally playing the game of marxism-leninism but on the opposite side of the working class. It's like a cold war anti-communist embrace of marxist analysis, only differing in which side is supposed to be winning.

You can see this in the usage of terms like "class warfare", "private property", occasionally even "means of production".

Really, really weird and creepy.

Vicious Michigan Union Thug Thu, Aug 11, 2011 11:20:39am

re: #43 Killgore Trout

President Obama Hosts an Iftar Dinner to Celebrate Ramadan (video)
Jihad!

Too late! GW Bush had an Iftar dinner in 2001, right after 9/11!

(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Thu, Aug 11, 2011 11:21:18am

re: #70 jaunte

I'm thinking mostly about the corporation's ability (unlike an individual) to shop the word for preferred tax rates.[Link: www.cbsnews.com...]

The only answer to that would be international law / world government, though. Hence…

Targetpractice Thu, Aug 11, 2011 11:21:33am

re: #69 Gus 802

There was. It happened right before Obama took office and Bush was handing out billions to GM and the right wingers barely noticed. Sort of like TARP. But now a lot of wingnuts think the GM bailout was largely an Obama creation and that Obama was the president behind TARP. They're confused and only reacting according to fear and partisanship. Bush bails out GM -- it's OK. Obama bails out GM -- not OK.

Nah, I remember a bunch of proto-TPers who railed against TARP, screaming "Let'em crash!" Even then, they were okay with destroying the economy, if only to advance their ideology.

mr.fusion Thu, Aug 11, 2011 11:21:56am

Look at the DOW

+400

Am I the only one that thinks Wall Street is just fucking with us because they can?

(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Thu, Aug 11, 2011 11:22:53am

re: #74 Alouette

Too late! GW Bush had an Iftar dinner in 2001, right after 9/11!

Depending on the level of influence of Paulbots in the Tea Party on a given day, Bush and his neocon administration were a bunch of RINOs anyhoo…

Ericus58 Thu, Aug 11, 2011 11:23:59am

O/T
Russia to unveil 5th-generation fighter at airshow
Reuters News 08/11/2011

"MOSCOW, Aug 11 (Reuters) - Russia will unveil its long-delayed fifth generation fighter jet at the MAKS airshow next week, Deputy Prime Minister Sergei Ivanov said on Thursday, a move it hopes will show the resurgence of its air industry.

Russia has been developing the jet -- known as the T-50 or by its Russian abbreviation PAKFA -- for some years in the hope of competing with the established F-22 United States aircraft made by Lockheed Martin/Boeing and the upcoming Lockheed Martin F-35 Joint Strike Fighter."
.....

Jack Burton Thu, Aug 11, 2011 11:24:25am

re: #74 Alouette

Too late! GW Bush had an Iftar dinner in 2001, right after 9/11!

He obviously was a sekrit libruh islamososhaylist who used the reaction of real 'merkin patriots to 9-11 in order to bring Sharia to the white house.

HappyWarrior Thu, Aug 11, 2011 11:24:45am

You know, I don't have a problem with the rich. What I want is a better chance for people to have that opportunity. And you don't get that by gutting services that could help people get a better education. There was a TP member from Montana who equated Pell Grants with welfare. How are students supposed to get the degrees that give them a better jobs and careers if you're doing stuff like that?

Gus Thu, Aug 11, 2011 11:25:01am

re: #76 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

Nah, I remember a bunch of proto-TPers who railed against TARP, screaming "Let'em crash!" Even then, they were okay with destroying the economy, if only to advance their ideology.

True. I'm just comparing the possible reactions. Had there been a TARP today it would result in the outrage of outrages from the wingnuts. Bush, while opposed on TARP by the wingnuts of his day was let off lightly compared to what the wingnuts and Teabaggers would do today. But, overall, the wingnut meme has always been to "let them crash." Apparently, wingnuts don't have bank accounts, mortgages, pensions, retirement investments, and health insurance needs. Wingnuts, are the leaders in social misidentification. They think and act as if though they're independently wealthy when in fact the opposite is true.

(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Thu, Aug 11, 2011 11:25:09am

re: #76 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

Nah, I remember a bunch of proto-TPers who railed against TARP, screaming "Let'em crash!" Even then, they were okay with destroying the economy, if only to advance their ideology.

The thing is: There was no Tea Party Movement before Obama. Only individuals and their rather isolated followers, most prominently the Paulbots (who still, falsely, claim credit for having started the movement – if it was any one person I think Glenn Beck has more of a claim to it, and AFAIK he was for TARP).

Ericus58 Thu, Aug 11, 2011 11:26:13am

re: #77 mr.fusion

Look at the DOW

+400

Am I the only one that thinks Wall Street is just fucking with us because they can?

perhaps a stream of money is flowing across the Atlantic from Europe...

Targetpractice Thu, Aug 11, 2011 11:26:32am

re: #79 Ericus58

O/T
Russia to unveil 5th-generation fighter at airshow
Reuters News 08/11/2011

"MOSCOW, Aug 11 (Reuters) - Russia will unveil its long-delayed fifth generation fighter jet at the MAKS airshow next week, Deputy Prime Minister Sergei Ivanov said on Thursday, a move it hopes will show the resurgence of its air industry.

Russia has been developing the jet -- known as the T-50 or by its Russian abbreviation PAKFA -- for some years in the hope of competing with the established F-22 United States aircraft made by Lockheed Martin/Boeing and the upcoming Lockheed Martin F-35 Joint Strike Fighter."
...

*snorts* "Look at us, we can get in on the 5th generation gig too! Sure, we won't be buying that many of them, but tremble in fear anyway!"

HappyWarrior Thu, Aug 11, 2011 11:28:15am

The Teapartiers and purists make me miss Bush as the unofficial leader of the Republican Party. I never thought I'd say that but damn. And one thing I will always respect GW Bush for is not being a bigot when it came to the hopes and dreams of immigrants.

(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Thu, Aug 11, 2011 11:28:36am

re: #84 Ericus58

perhaps a stream of money is flowing across the Atlantic from Europe...

Doubtful. DAX is soaring, too.

Targetpractice Thu, Aug 11, 2011 11:28:49am

re: #82 Gus 802

True. I'm just comparing the possible reactions. Had there been a TARP today it would result in the outrage of outrages from the wingnuts. Bush, while opposed on TARP by the wingnuts of his day was let off lightly compared to what the wingnuts and Teabaggers would do today. But, overall, the wingnut meme has always been to "let them crash." Apparently, wingnuts don't have bank accounts, mortgages, pensions, retirement investments, and health insurance needs. Wingnuts, are the leaders in social misidentification. They think and act as if though they're independently wealthy when in fact the opposite is true.

If there was a need for a TARP today, it wouldn't happen. Why? Because even back in '08, before the rise of the Tea Party, the GOP leadership had a hell of a time getting enough votes to pass TARP. Now? It'd be DOA, killed by the Tea Party Caucus, who'd be out on TV convincing folks that allowing the banks to collapse would be in America's "best interests."

Atlas Fails Thu, Aug 11, 2011 11:29:13am

re: #73 000G

Sometimes I think a big chunk of the American Right deliberately behaves like the evil exploiting capitalist out of communist propaganda, intentionally playing the game of marxism-leninism but on the opposite side of the working class. It's like a cold war anti-communist embrace of marxist analysis, only differing in which side is supposed to be winning.

You can see this in the usage of terms like "class warfare", "private property", occasionally even "means of production".

Really, really weird and creepy.

It's soooo infuriating. Now how well-reasoned and articulate you make the argument to a wingnut about why the Bush tax cuts need to expire and corporate tax loopholes need to be closed, they will inevitably start shouting "WELL YOU'RE A MARXIST COMMUNIST NATIONAL SOCIALIST USING CLASS WARFARE AND THEREFORE WRONG!!! WORK HARDER IF YOU'RE SO JEALOUS OF THE RICH!!!"

Gus Thu, Aug 11, 2011 11:29:41am

re: #85 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

*snorts* "Look at us, we can get in on the 5th generation gig too! Sure, we won't be buying that many of them, but tremble in fear anyway!"

The revolving door will never stop revolving. Yet again we're faced with another national security crisis as Russia unveils it's 5th generation fighter which can outperform the F-22!! We're doomed I tell you doomed! Soon the Soviet Union will...

No, wait... there is no Soviet Union. Oh heck. Let's play up the fear anyway. It's Putin and the KGB!!!111ty

justaminute Thu, Aug 11, 2011 11:29:57am

The first questioner in that little dust up asked Romney if he would raise the cap on payroll taxes, so that the rich pay more into the system. Romney said that raising the payroll tax cap for Social Security was tantamount to “attacking people because of their success.” His actual statement after that was:

"You know, there was a time in this country when we didn’t celebrate attacking people based on their success and when we didn’t go after people because they were successful."

Then after that he made the statement that Corporations are people.

(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Thu, Aug 11, 2011 11:30:28am

re: #86 HappyWarrior

That's another thing a lot of people on the Right accuse Bush of: Not having closed the border and having conspired for granting illegal aliens amnesty.

Targetpractice Thu, Aug 11, 2011 11:30:55am

re: #83 000G

The thing is: There was no Tea Party Movement before Obama. Only individuals and their rather isolated followers, most prominently the Paulbots (who still, falsely, claim credit for having started the movement – if it was any one person I think Glenn Beck has more of a claim to it, and AFAIK he was for TARP).

Like I said, the proto-TP movement, because back then there were simply a disorganized group of pocket resistance. Wasn't really until Obama took office that the disparate groups had a common enemy behind which to coalesce.

Gus Thu, Aug 11, 2011 11:31:31am

re: #88 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

If there was a need for a TARP today, it wouldn't happen. Why? Because even back in '08, before the rise of the Tea Party, the GOP leadership had a hell of a time getting enough votes to pass TARP. Now? It'd be DOA, killed by the Tea Party Caucus, who'd be out on TV convincing folks that allowing the banks to collapse would be in America's "best interests."

Yep. TARP was passed (for the Bush White House) thanks to the efforst of Nancy Pelosi, Harry Reid, Barney Frank, etc. Hank Paulson was also flanked and assisted during the time by then NY Fed president Tim Geithner.

(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Thu, Aug 11, 2011 11:31:43am

re: #93 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

Like I said, the proto-TP movement, because back then there were simply a disorganized group of pocket resistance. Wasn't really until Obama took office that the disparate groups had a common enemy behind which to coalesce.

But that's precisely my point: It was not a movement before it was not organized. A movement is defined by being organized.

Jack Burton Thu, Aug 11, 2011 11:32:15am

re: #79 Ericus58

"Ah yes, 'Sukhoi T-50' (finger quotes)... the mythical Russian super-fighter that is equal to the F-22. We have dismissed those wingnut claims."

What's the next talking point... "It's not *that* good", "They wont make that many", or "They will never sell any to rogue states or countries the US may have to fight in."

Cue someone making comments about the Soviets.

Jack Burton Thu, Aug 11, 2011 11:33:13am

re: #96 ArchangelMichael

Wow before I even got that in almost all of those points were hit on.

BongCrodny Thu, Aug 11, 2011 11:34:02am

re: #14 mr.fusion

There was a time in this country where we didn't celebrate attacking people based on their success. We didn't go after people because they were successful.

They were building America back then, not dismantling it.

Targetpractice Thu, Aug 11, 2011 11:34:30am

re: #96 ArchangelMichael

"Ah yes, 'Sukhoi T-50' (finger quotes)... the mythical Russian super-fighter that is equal to the F-22. We have dismissed those wingnut claims."

What's the next talking point... "It's not *that* good", "They wont make that many", or "They will never sell any to rogue states or countries the US may have to fight in."

Cue someone making comments about the Soviets.

It's a high-priced toy, same as the F-22. It'll be produced primarily for the "elite" squadrons, mainly those dedicated to defending major facilities and government centers. The majority of the Russian Air Force will continue to soldier on with updated versions of last year's model, same as we are even with the F-22 in service.

100

Jack Burton Thu, Aug 11, 2011 11:37:11am

re: #99 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

It's a high-priced toy, same as the F-22. It'll be produced primarily for the "elite" squadrons, mainly those dedicated to defending major facilities and government centers. The majority of the Russian Air Force will continue to soldier on with updated versions of last year's model, same as we are even with the F-22 in service.

I still don't trust those fuckers to not sell the things en masse to North Korea, Syria, or half a dozen other shit holes that don't like us and are powder kegs ready to go off. I'm not afraid of the Russians themselves but they have a long history of selling weapons to anyone and everyone. I think there are more AKs than people in some countries.

101

Gus Thu, Aug 11, 2011 11:37:14am

re: #96 ArchangelMichael

"Ah yes, 'Sukhoi T-50' (finger quotes)... the mythical Russian super-fighter that is equal to the F-22. We have dismissed those wingnut claims."

What's the next talking point... "It's not *that* good", "They wont make that many", or "They will never sell any to rogue states or countries the US may have to fight in."

Cue someone making comments about the Soviets.

Iran could come out with a squadron or two of Cessna 172s and the wingnuts would be talking doom and the end of the world.

102

Bulworth Thu, Aug 11, 2011 11:38:25am

re: #88 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

If there was a need for a TARP today, it wouldn't happen. Why? Because even back in '08, before the rise of the Tea Party, the GOP leadership had a hell of a time getting enough votes to pass TARP. Now? It'd be DOA, killed by the Tea Party Caucus, who'd be out on TV convincing folks that allowing the banks to collapse would be in America's "best interests."

Yeah, this is something we didn't really have a chance to see play out. That is, I wonder how the RW resistance to TARP and everything else would have played out had it not been the end of W's term or had McCain won.

103

Targetpractice Thu, Aug 11, 2011 11:40:25am

re: #100 ArchangelMichael

I still don't trust those fuckers to not sell the things en masse to North Korea, Syria, or half a dozen other shit holes that don't like us and are powder kegs ready to go off. I'm not afraid of the Russians themselves but they have a long history of selling weapons to anyone and everyone. I think there are more AKs than people in some countries.

So far, there's exactly two countries that are confirmed as being on the customer list for the PAKFA: India and Vietnam. No doubt most of their other export customers are holding off, waiting to see what China's 5th generation fighter starts retailing for, as well as seeing whether we end up exporting the F-22. I'd say the F-35, but most of the customers for that bird are already reconsidering their orders.

104

Bulworth Thu, Aug 11, 2011 11:40:37am

re: #91 justaminute

The first questioner in that little dust up asked Romney if he would raise the cap on payroll taxes, so that the rich pay more into the system. Romney said that raising the payroll tax cap for Social Security was tantamount to “attacking people because of their success.” His actual statement after that was:

"You know, there was a time in this country when we didn’t celebrate attacking people based on their success and when we didn’t go after people because they were successful."

Then after that he made the statement that Corporations are people.

Yes, better to "attack" other people, like older beneficiaries with a COLA reduction.

105

BongCrodny Thu, Aug 11, 2011 11:40:53am

re: #77 mr.fusion

Look at the DOW

+400

Am I the only one that thinks Wall Street is just fucking with us because they can?

"When I was with Bain Capital, I did things just to fuck with you. Now, I'd like to extend that experience to the Presidency. My name is Mitt Romney and I approved this message."

106

Bulworth Thu, Aug 11, 2011 11:42:27am

re: #91 justaminute

The first questioner in that little dust up asked Romney if he would raise the cap on payroll taxes, so that the rich pay more into the system. Romney said that raising the payroll tax cap for Social Security was tantamount to “attacking people because of their success.” His actual statement after that was:

"You know, there was a time in this country when we didn’t celebrate attacking people based on their success and when we didn’t go after people because they were successful."

Then after that he made the statement that Corporations are people.

Yes, better to "attack" other people, like Medicare "welfare" beneficiaries and people who get Medicaid or Pell Grants and Unions.

107

blueraven Thu, Aug 11, 2011 11:47:35am

re: #51 Big Steve

any utterances from Huntsman's campaign regarding corporations is the epitome of hypocrisy considering that John jr has been raised his whole life on money from one of the greediest corporations in the country.

But has he personally engaged in such things as venture capitalism and firing workers? You cant be blamed just for being born into a wealthy family.

108

Jack Burton Thu, Aug 11, 2011 11:48:02am

re: #103 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

So far, there's exactly two countries that are confirmed as being on the customer list for the PAKFA: India and Vietnam. No doubt most of their other export customers are holding off, waiting to see what China's 5th generation fighter starts retailing for, as well as seeing whether we end up exporting the F-22. I'd say the F-35, but most of the customers for that bird are already reconsidering their orders.

F-22 is probably too expensive for anyone that wants it and I don't think the DoD would allow export to anyone other than Israel, if that. F-35 is a jack of all trades and master of none. I wouldn't buy it unless it was just the F-35A and would rip any extraneous bullshit out of it. I don't trust the V/STOL version to do anything but crash a lot and waste fuel. Everytime the military tries "lets have this one weapon/vehicle/whatever fill 800 different roles" it always turns out bad.

I'm sure this fighter and whatever China is working on will be much cheaper.

109

GeorgetownPress Thu, Aug 11, 2011 1:40:14pm

The question of the legal personality of corporations is not even the relevant issue Romney is discussing.

I cannot be certain because of the lack of context, but it appears that Mitt Romney commented that "corporations are people" in response to somebody arguing that the government should tax corporations and not people.

Romney's point (as best can be deciphered from a 15 sec clip) is that there is no free lunch and all taxes, at base, come from individuals.

The broader point being that if you impose overly onerous taxation on corporations you may be taking money away from everyone by limiting economic growth.

Charles, in most cases you would be criticising people for turning an innocuous statement into some sort of "nontroversy," not promoting one yourself.

110

jamesfirecat Thu, Aug 11, 2011 1:48:00pm

re: #109 GeorgetownPress

The question of the legal personality of corporations is not even the relevant issue Romney is discussing.

I cannot be certain because of the lack of context, but it appears that Mitt Romney commented that "corporations are people" in response to somebody arguing that the government should tax corporations and not people.

Romney's point (as best can be deciphered from a 15 sec clip) is that there is no free lunch and all taxes, at base, come from individuals.

The broader point being that if you impose overly onerous taxation on corporations you may be taking money away from everyone by limiting economic growth.

Charles, in most cases you would be criticising people for turning an innocuous statement into some sort of "nontroversy," not promoting one yourself.

The quote would be less of a nontroversy in my mind if we didn't see creeping push from the Republicans to let corporations have more and more rights that should only be reserved for actual human beings?

For example see Citizen's United which gave corporations "Free Speech" and to a degree even greater than actual people have it!

What Mitt Romney did possibly wasn't just a simple verbal misstep, it might be a window into his political views.

Luckily I'm sure Mitt will have plenty of time to react /explain himself in the future to avoid me having to stick with that interpretation.

111

budda10000 Thu, Aug 11, 2011 2:59:24pm

He is 100% correct on all accounts. My guessis he was be barated by some not so intellectual leftists that view corporations as magical creatures that eat money. corporate income is either reinvested or paid out as dividends to stockholders(humans). reinvestment boosts stock prices which is a form of capital gains(for humans). The question we should really ask is which people? Generally the wealthier portion of Americans.. Romney may lack charisma but he is hard to pull one over on.

112

wrenchwench Thu, Aug 11, 2011 3:16:04pm

re: #111 budda10000

He is 100% correct on all accounts. My guessis he was be barated by some not so intellectual leftists that view corporations as magical creatures that eat money. corporate income is either reinvested or paid out as dividends to stockholders(humans). reinvestment boosts stock prices which is a form of capital gains(for humans). The question we should really ask is which people? Generally the wealthier portion of Americans.. Romney may lack charisma but he is hard to pull one over on.

Stockholders are humans. Recipients of capital gains are humans. Corporations are persons under the law, but they are NOT human beings.

113

tnguitarist Thu, Aug 11, 2011 8:46:39pm

re: #111 budda10000

My guessis he was be barated by some not so intellectual leftists

Ummm...

114

E'Ville Mike Fri, Aug 12, 2011 7:11:59am

Corporations are allowed to own other corporations.
People are not allowed to own other people.
Corporations cannot be people.

Spy Mode Auto

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