Right Wing Blogs in Massive Anti-Science Fail Mode

Howler monkeys afraid again
Wingnuts • Views: 24,123

It’s always fun when right wing bloggers encounter a story about scientists doing what scientists do, and promptly turn into a mob of shrieking monkeys flinging poo at something they don’t understand.

Today, nearly the entire right wing blogosphere is moronically piling onto a story from the Guardian about a research study examining the possible effects of human contact with alien life, mocking and hooting like a bunch of total hicks. There’s a reason why this particular study attracted their ignorant derision; it combines two of the most-hated right wing boogeymen, egghead ivory tower scientists and global warming.

One of the possible scenarios — out of many — envisioned by the researchers is that aliens might see our failure to deal with climate change as a sign of a civilization out of control, and attack to prevent us from becoming a more serious threat.

This has led to a right wing blogosphere preemptive attack of outrageously outrageous proportions, as they spring into action to make sure their echo chamber audience knows what a bunch of useless wankers these scientists are. And of course, they’re all ranting about the liberal agenda of NASA, because one of the scientists involved is affiliated with NASA; it isn’t an official NASA project, but that isn’t stopping most of them from making the connection anyway.

Kicked off by Salem Communications shill Allahpundit at Hot Air: Bad news from NASA: If we don’t reduce carbon emissions, the aliens might come and kill us; Update: Not a NASA report « Hot Air.

The right wing’s ignorant, self-destructive antipathy toward science and research is one of the primary reasons why I had to make such a public break with these idiots.

UPDATE at 8/19/11 10:05:20 am

Here’s the paper at the Cornell library: [1104.4462] Would contact with extraterrestrials benefit or harm humanity? A scenario analysis. It’s actually interesting reading — and notice that the bit about global warming is a tiny part of the study.

Related

Jump to bottom

134 comments
1 HappyWarrior  Fri, Aug 19, 2011 9:33:03am

Well, these are the same people who derided fruit fly research whereas anyone who has even taken a semester of college biology knows how important those things are to the study of genetics due to their rapid reproductive rates and easy to observe Mendelian traits. It's all a bunch of know nothing crap. I realized though that if I had gotten in to biology, marine biology or the study of primates would be my choices. It really is remarkable how close we are to the chimps. That's why I think evolution is cool and not to be derided.

2 makeitstop  Fri, Aug 19, 2011 9:35:55am

re: #1 HappyWarrior

Well, these are the same people who derided fruit fly research...

Don't forget volcano research as well.If they had their way we'd all be huddled around fires and dying of fright at every noise off in the woods.

3 MrSilverDragon  Fri, Aug 19, 2011 9:35:55am

I don't think the aliens will come to kill us if we're in the process of destroying the environment. I think they'd be smart enough to know that we'd end up destroying ourselves without their intervention, and they could just reap the benefits of whatever natural resources that are actually left.

Just my $.02.

4 Vicious Babushka  Fri, Aug 19, 2011 9:36:50am

Maybe the reason we haven't made contact with aliens yet, is that the aliens are no more intelligent than we are and have already destroyed their environment and become extinct.
//

5 jaunte  Fri, Aug 19, 2011 9:37:12am

Hard to believe Salem pays Allahpundit. How easy it must be to fling poo at 'pie-in-the-sky hypotheticals.'

6 HappyWarrior  Fri, Aug 19, 2011 9:37:36am

re: #2 makeitstop

Don't forget volcano research as well.If they had their way we'd all be huddled around fires and dying of fright at every noise off in the woods.

True, I just remembered specifically the Palin derision of fruit fly research in Paris. It's hard to argue with what you're saying of course since scientific research seems so foreign to these people. Ironic too since we'd never have the strong military we have today without that.

7 makeitstop  Fri, Aug 19, 2011 9:39:35am

re: #6 HappyWarrior

Ironic too since we'd never have the strong military we have today without that.

Not to mention innumerable creature comforts.

These people can't do the fundamental math to realize that you don't get things like microwave ovens or plasma TVs without scientists testing and verifying the mechanics behind those things.

8 Kronocide  Fri, Aug 19, 2011 9:40:58am

I'm wondering how big of a coniption they'll have if life is actually discovered outside the Solar System.

see movie 'Contact' when fundamentalist blows up first space ship before it departs.

9 HappyWarrior  Fri, Aug 19, 2011 9:41:18am

re: #7 makeitstop

Not to mention innumerable creature comforts.

These people can't do the fundamental math to realize that you don't get things like microwave ovens or plasma TVs without scientists testing and verifying the mechanics behind those things.

Yep, I am grateful to the science and math geeks out there for making this all possible. My 19,000 songs on my ITunes thanks them greatly heh. I am no man of science as I said but I greatly appreciate it and its contributions.

10 jaunte  Fri, Aug 19, 2011 9:42:25am

I guess the alternative outrage option for the right wing blogosphere this morning is "Goldurnit, Perry is not an idiot."

11 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Fri, Aug 19, 2011 9:43:27am

re: #9 HappyWarrior

Yep, I am grateful to the science and math geeks out there for making this all possible. My 19,000 songs on my ITunes thanks them greatly heh. I am no man of science as I said but I greatly appreciate it and its contributions.

Considering that my entire livelihood currently revolves around multiple generations of scientists and, later on, electrical engineers testing and experimenting in true scientific fashion, I can safely say I owe my life to science. It's not impossible for a conservative evangelical to support science, you just have to be willing to make some compromises in the name of believing what's true.

12 jaunte  Fri, Aug 19, 2011 9:45:02am

We probably won't see the aliens arrive any time soon.

...we have really no real basis to speculate about what incentives an imaginary alien civilization might face. We can state that interstellar travel would probably be very costly for any civilization, but it’s possible that we’re wrong. Similarly, an alien species could put enormous value on Earth for reasons we can’t even comprehend, enough value to justify the extreme costs and long time horizons of an invasion. However, given the inherent expense of interstellar flight, likely large separation between intelligent civilizations, and universal prevalence of resources there seem to be few incentives for an alien invasion, even for an extraterrestrial species. We’re lucky.
The Economics of Alien Invasion, Updated
13 HappyWarrior  Fri, Aug 19, 2011 9:46:39am

re: #11 thedopefishlives

Considering that my entire livelihood currently revolves around multiple generations of scientists and, later on, electrical engineers testing and experimenting in true scientific fashion, I can safely say I owe my life to science. It's not impossible for a conservative evangelical to support science, you just have to be willing to make some compromises in the name of believing what's true.

I think if the Catholic church can accept evolution, then conservative evangelicals can. Many conservative evangelicals seem to believe that science and religion are two fields that have no commonity yet Mendel whom I mention was a monk, Joseph Priestley was a minister, and there are others I know. I believe that as I recall a lot of the great mathetmatics scholars were also Quranic ones in the Middle East.

14 wrenchwench  Fri, Aug 19, 2011 9:48:11am

I have two egghead ivory tower scientist brothers. One works at a national lab that is slated to be closed (or at least their main activity discontinued) because the cutting edge of that science has moved to Europe, when it could have been in Texas. The other one teaches at a university in Colombia. You know, South America, the land of "banana republics". They are into science there.

15 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Fri, Aug 19, 2011 9:48:54am

re: #13 HappyWarrior

I think if the Catholic church can accept evolution, then conservative evangelicals can.

Funny you should bring that up, though. The Catholic Church would never acknowledge it without an edict from the Pope. In fundamentalist Christianity, though, there is no such central authority, and yet people are similarly indoctrinated to blindly believe what the church preaches without question. Therefore, these people have the same knee-jerk desire to reject scientific advancement as "of the devil", and there is no way to inject sanity into the system anywhere.

16 Tumulus11  Fri, Aug 19, 2011 9:49:26am
'Green' aliens might object to the environmental damage humans have caused on Earth and wipe us out to save the planet.'

. If we don't clean up our act, they might choose the Earth for their next galactic waste dump.

17 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Fri, Aug 19, 2011 9:50:09am

re: #15 thedopefishlives

My apologies to the Catholics, by the way; I seem to have over-hyperbolized my point. I recognize that there are many free-thinking Catholics in the world, even among the lizardoid community.

18 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Fri, Aug 19, 2011 9:50:57am

re: #16 Tumulus11

. If we don't clean up our act, they might choose the Earth for their next galactic waste dump.

Nahh, they'll just blow it away to make room for an hyperspace bypass.

19 HappyWarrior  Fri, Aug 19, 2011 9:52:51am

re: #17 thedopefishlives

My apologies to the Catholics, by the way; I seem to have over-hyperbolized my point. I recognize that there are many free-thinking Catholics in the world, even among the lizardoid community.

It's cool. I am baptized Catholic, even call myself culturally Catholic but yet I am not really Catholic. There's also the Jesuits which have also engaged in scientific and mathematical pursuits. You are correct that there is no central authority in the evangelical community since as I recall each church is an independent entity.

20 HappyWarrior  Fri, Aug 19, 2011 9:53:40am

re: #19 HappyWarrior

It's cool. I am baptized Catholic, even call myself culturally Catholic but yet I am not really Catholic. There's also the Jesuits which have also engaged in scientific and mathematical pursuits. You are correct that there is no central authority in the evangelical community since as I recall each church is an independent entity. To add I am not suggesting the Catholic Church has a great history with science. Who can forget Galileo?

21 Atlas Fails  Fri, Aug 19, 2011 9:53:42am

Hurr hurr teh libruls think aliens is gonna kill us for not takin' care of our planet, or whatever them hippies bitch about. I think we all know Jesus is gonna be the one who destroys the world after he raptures all us good Christians up to heaven with him. Dumbass scientists.

22 MrSilverDragon  Fri, Aug 19, 2011 9:54:58am

Whenever I hear about alien contact, I always think about Neil deGrasse Tyson's relative take on Human Intelligence.

23 jc717  Fri, Aug 19, 2011 9:58:48am

Well... this is rather absurd 'research'. The money could be better spent for practical science.
The reaction to this isn't much different at slashdot.org, definitely not an anti-science place.

[Link: science.slashdot.org...]

The reason I call this an absurd waste of money is that research grants/dollars are a very right finite resource. Given unlimited funds and scientists, I would have no problems with this, but that is not our reality.
The money and time that went towards paying for this could have gone towards something more useful like asteroid tracking.

We would be completely at the mercy of any interstellar travel capable civilization. It is entirely pointless to wonder about their motives or results, and we'd be completely powerless to do anything about them.

This really is 'how many angels can dance on the head of a pin' territory.

24 Gus  Fri, Aug 19, 2011 10:01:16am

re: #21 Atlas Fails

Hurr hurr teh libruls think aliens is gonna kill us for not takin' care of our planet, or whatever them hippies bitch about. I think we all know Jesus is gonna be the one who destroys the world after he raptures all us good Christians up to heaven with him. Dumbass scientists.

The irony being that Allahpundit claims to be an atheist. He's such a tool. Guess he's an "atheist for Free Market Jesus".

25 jaunte  Fri, Aug 19, 2011 10:01:34am

re: #23 jc717

Does anyone know exactly how much was spent on these speculations?
It seems that three people could put together a 33 page .pdf in a day or two.

26 Charles Johnson  Fri, Aug 19, 2011 10:01:56am

re: #23 jc717

I couldn't disagree more -- it's very shortsighted to look at a speculative study like this and declare it useless. This is what research does, and if your criteria is whether the usefulness is immediately apparent, probably the majority of research studies would fail.

27 CarleeCork  Fri, Aug 19, 2011 10:02:45am

re: #8 BigPapa

I'm wondering how big of a coniption they'll have if life is actually discovered outside the Solar System.

see movie 'Contact' when fundamentalist blows up first space ship before it departs.


I just watched that movie again Wednesday night. It's a great movie, I love Jodie Foster.

28 Charles Johnson  Fri, Aug 19, 2011 10:03:22am

re: #25 jaunte

Does anyone know exactly how much was spent on these speculations?
It seems that three people could put together a 33 page .pdf in a day or two.

Here's the paper at the Cornell library:

[Link: arxiv.org...]

Notice that the bit about global warming is a tiny part of the study.

29 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Fri, Aug 19, 2011 10:03:25am

re: #23 jc717

We would be completely at the mercy of any interstellar travel capable civilization. It is entirely pointless to wonder about their motives or results, and we'd be completely powerless to do anything about them.

How do you know? Have you done any research into the possibilities? It's a little premature to come to this conclusion without any understanding whatsoever of the variables involved.

30 HappyWarrior  Fri, Aug 19, 2011 10:03:40am

re: #27 CarleeCork

I just watched that movie again Wednesday night. It's a great movie, I love Jodie Foster.

That movie had a scene filmed in my hometown. Only movie that ever has been filmed there. It's a good movie. Saw it in philosophy.

31 Gus  Fri, Aug 19, 2011 10:04:03am

re: #26 Charles

I couldn't disagree more -- it's very shortsighted to look at a speculative study like this and declare it useless. This is what research does, and if your criteria is whether the usefulness is immediately apparent, probably the majority of research studies would fail.

Hang on a second. Looks like right-wing genius Allahpundit updated the Hot Air blog:

Update (8/19): So goofy is this paper that we actually got an e-mail from a NASA spokesman this morning noting that it isn’t an official agency study. One of the authors is affiliated with NASA, but that’s it. Duly noted.

Which basically destroys his original and hysterical argument.

32 Gus  Fri, Aug 19, 2011 10:05:55am

I noticed something. Typically Allahpundit does a lot of copying and pasting with his Hot Air threads. This one seems to show him using his own voice. I never realized how much of an ignorant wingnut Allahpundit really is. He sounds like a shock jock radio host.

33 Lidane  Fri, Aug 19, 2011 10:06:04am

re: #31 Gus 802

Which basically destroys his original and hysterical argument.

It still won't stop his idiot readers from hyperventilating all day about it.

34 Charles Johnson  Fri, Aug 19, 2011 10:10:42am

The Guardian is partly to blame, too, for a ridiculous clownish article that focuses on one tiny part of the study to make the whole thing look silly.

35 albusteve  Fri, Aug 19, 2011 10:10:46am

well obviously the first stop for the Alien Promo Tour will be New Mexico, the land of alien enchantment....and if the GOP has their way, the first question they will have to answer is 'red or green'?

36 wrenchwench  Fri, Aug 19, 2011 10:11:56am

re: #35 albusteve

well obviously the first stop for the Alien Promo Tour will be New Mexico, the land of alien enchantment...and if the GOP has their way, the first question they will have to answer is 'red or green'?

I have a slice of green chile pizza waiting for me right now....

37 Charles Johnson  Fri, Aug 19, 2011 10:13:10am

re: #25 jaunte

Does anyone know exactly how much was spent on these speculations?

I couldn't find any info on that, but the budget was probably very small.

38 jaunte  Fri, Aug 19, 2011 10:13:20am

I guess the idea that an all-powerful alien intelligence that created the universe and keeps tabs on everyone on earth in their most private moments, and might some day swoop the elect off their feet and into paradise, leaving the rest of us slobs to find our own way...

is completely different from the idea of speculating that someday we might encounter a slightly less powerful intelligence, and be prepared to deal with that scenario.

39 Gus  Fri, Aug 19, 2011 10:14:14am

re: #33 Lidane

It still won't stop his idiot readers from hyperventilating all day about it.

Funny you know. Thinking back how many of us once thought we were allies with these right wing miscreants. Drawn together because of the events of 9/11. That was our only point of commonality. The rest is like oil and water. I have little to nothing in common, ideologically, with these people.

40 bluecheese  Fri, Aug 19, 2011 10:14:52am

re: #10 jaunte

I guess the alternative outrage option for the right wing blogosphere this morning is "Goldurnit, Perry is not an idiot."

i take it you seen the 3 minutes of fail?

and that other creepy video?

(that bush guy is right of course)

41 Gus  Fri, Aug 19, 2011 10:16:46am

Outrageous outrage over one goofy Guardian article. They'll go back to being outraged about Obama's vacation and the "Darth Vader" bus. Lame as it ever was.

42 wrenchwench  Fri, Aug 19, 2011 10:16:56am

re: #22 MrSilverDragon

Whenever I hear about alien contact, I always think about Neil deGrasse Tyson's relative take on Human Intelligence.

That one led me to this one, which addresses the subject of imparting science to the public (something we need a whole lot more of, IMHO).

43 blueraven  Fri, Aug 19, 2011 10:17:01am

re: #40 bluecheese

i take it you seen the 3 minutes of fail?

and that other creepy video?

(that bush guy is right of course)

Access denied message on the creepy video link...is it under a paywall?

44 bluecheese  Fri, Aug 19, 2011 10:19:06am

re: #43 blueraven

dont know what happen.


try this. (crappy audio)

45 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Fri, Aug 19, 2011 10:19:35am

re: #39 Gus 802

Funny you know. Thinking back how many of us once thought we were allies with these right wing miscreants. Drawn together because of the events of 9/11. That was our only point of commonality. The rest is like oil and water. I have little to nothing in common, ideologically, with these people.

Think that's bad, imagine having actually been one of those miscreants, or at least cut from the same cloth. Breaking that bond feels like you're stabbing your mother in the back whilst kicking your dog. But it has to be done in the name of rationality and sanity.

46 jaunte  Fri, Aug 19, 2011 10:19:52am

re: #40 bluecheese

It's a new ad.
"Bank of America, we'll help you* out."

*offer good only for business-friendly presidential candidates

47 blueraven  Fri, Aug 19, 2011 10:21:54am

re: #44 bluecheese

dont know what happen.

try this. (crappy audio)

[Video]

Thanks....it is pretty creepy!

48 wrenchwench  Fri, Aug 19, 2011 10:22:46am

By the way, my brother in Colombia has been documenting frog populations moving to higher altitudes for years (similar to what is discussed in the article in the previous thread.) Smart little froggies. Often, however, that higher habitat is already occupied. It's not a pretty situation.

49 bluecheese  Fri, Aug 19, 2011 10:22:48am

As for alien life, it's my thinking that humans can not travel and survive on another planet. My thinking is the same for aliens.

Just crossing the ocean almost wiped out an entire race.

We are a product of earth. And too far evolved to make it elsewhere.

50 jaunte  Fri, Aug 19, 2011 10:24:34am

This is an interesting part of the paper; no physical alien invasion required:

6.2 Information hazard
If humanity did not come into direct physical contact with ETI, it could still be possible for ETI to unintentionally harm humanity. This could occur if ETI send harmful information to humanity via electromagnetic transmission. A malicious ETI broadcaster could, for example, send a message containing harmful information that either damages human technology, analogous to a computer virus, or coerces humans into a seemingly benign but ultimately destructive course of action, such as the construction of a dangerous device, [76].

As another example, ETI might send information about its biology, perhaps hoping that humanity could use this information to protect itself against ET diseases or invasive species. However, perhaps such an effort would backfire on humanity if we use the information to create a disease, invasive species, or other hazard. The hazard would be created by humans from the
information received, and the creation could be intentional or unintentional. But if the creation was intentional, then it would be human intent, not ETI intent. The possibility of an intentional or unintentional informational hazard suggests that at least some care should be taken in efforts to detect and analyze electromagnetic signals sent from ETI.
There is one final information hazard scenario to consider. In this scenario, contact with ETI serves as a demoralizing force to humanity, with strong negative consequences. In human history, contact between modern society and stone age culture usually leads to the demise of the more primitive society. Likewise, in the event of contact with ETI, humanity may be driven
toward global cultural collapse when confronted with ETI technology, beliefs, and lifestyle [88].

Even if the ETI are friendly toward us and give us the choice to accept or reject their knowledge, the vast differences between our respective societies may force the more primitive one (ours) into a demoralizing state of societal collapse. For this reason, if ETI do already know of our presence and if they wish to preserve the integrity of our civilization, then they may choose to reveal themselves to us slowly and gradually in order to avoid a calamitous response [23].

51 Vicious Babushka  Fri, Aug 19, 2011 10:27:03am

re: #50 jaunte

This is an interesting part of the paper; no physical alien invasion required:

6.2 Information hazard
If humanity did not come into direct physical contact with ETI, it could still be possible for ETI to unintentionally harm humanity. This could occur if ETI send harmful information to humanity via electromagnetic transmission. A malicious ETI broadcaster could, for example, send a message containing harmful information that either damages human technology, analogous to a computer virus, or coerces humans into a seemingly benign but ultimately destructive course of action, such as the construction of a dangerous device, [76].

Didn't this work the other way around when Jeff Goldblum sent a 1990's Mac virus into the alien mothership?

52 wrenchwench  Fri, Aug 19, 2011 10:27:23am

re: #45 thedopefishlives

Think that's bad, imagine having actually been one of those miscreants, or at least cut from the same cloth. Breaking that bond feels like you're stabbing your mother in the back whilst kicking your dog. But it has to be done in the name of rationality and sanity.

I have an enormous amount of respect for people who do that.

53 Daniel Ballard  Fri, Aug 19, 2011 10:27:36am

Sorta O/T as I'm just not attuned to the RW blogsphere. I'm sorry. This is my sole political blog.

re: #34 Charles

Absolutely. They went right for the tabloid angle. It's awful.
I'll excerpt this
"many discussions of this question assume that contact will follow a particular scenario that derives from the hopes and fears of the author" (My Bold) Obviously this is one of those far out scenarios that are only rarely seriously discussed.

I love the science and first contact is well worth pondering. It's a little premature as we have not yet seen a whit of evidence for anyone nearby. I'd rather not be part of a global humanity cargo cult.
But I'm ROFL.

It's global warming that will get the aliens attention? Not the industrial age, not some other important earthly creature, not electricity, nor radio and television, not even space flight.... Not our nuclear weapons or countless warss *inhales* ? But AGW?

I'm a lifelong hard core SciFi fan. This may well be the most unlikely first contact scenario ever. There is an encyclopedia of excellent reasons to avoid further damaging our air, land and water. May I submit this should be the last one listed?

Who really wrote this scenario? Michael Bay? Zombie Ed Wood?

54 MrSilverDragon  Fri, Aug 19, 2011 10:27:57am

re: #51 Alouette

Didn't this work the other way around when Jeff Goldblum sent a 1990's Mac virus into the alien mothership?

It's really good to know that C+ is a universal standard!

/

55 jaunte  Fri, Aug 19, 2011 10:28:06am

re: #51 Alouette

It was amazing that he happened to be carrying a Universal Connector.

56 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Fri, Aug 19, 2011 10:28:54am

re: #16 Tumulus11

. If we don't clean up our act, they might choose the Earth for their next galactic waste dump.

Suppose they're looking for a prison colony or lunatic asylum.

GASP! PRISON PLANET!!!!11

Come to think of it, perhaps this has already happened. It would explain quite a few things.

Like this!

57 jaunte  Fri, Aug 19, 2011 10:30:09am

re: #51 Alouette

I'm just trying to imagine some of our politicians and public figures, say Louie Gohmert, or Alex Jones, trying to process a truly alien concept without harming themselves or everyone around them.

58 ElCapitanAmerica  Fri, Aug 19, 2011 10:30:13am

re: #17 thedopefishlives

I don't understand, are you saying the Catholic Church (today) doesn't accept evolution?

59 ElCapitanAmerica  Fri, Aug 19, 2011 10:31:57am

re: #3 MrSilverDragon

I don't think the aliens will come to kill us if we're in the process of destroying the environment. I think they'd be smart enough to know that we'd end up destroying ourselves without their intervention, and they could just reap the benefits of whatever natural resources that are actually left.

Just my $.02.

Not if they think our short term thinking will lead us to exploit resources away from our planet, which is a likely scenario if we're space fairing and the earth becomes a waste land. We'll start mining outside of earth, or even consider the possibility of colonizing other planets.

Haven't read the study yet, but it sounds fascinating.

60 jc717  Fri, Aug 19, 2011 10:31:58am

re: #26 Charles

I couldn't disagree more -- it's very shortsighted to look at a speculative study like this and declare it useless. This is what research does, and if your criteria is whether the usefulness is immediately apparent, probably the majority of research studies would fail.

Charles, we'll have to agree to disagree on this. I'm all for speculative research. But, research shouldn't be done in a vacuum.

When it comes to aliens:
1) We're pretty sure that intelligent, spacefaring life doesn't exist elsewhere in the solar system.
2) We're pretty sure that FTL travel is impossible.
3) Space is really really big. The closest star to the sun is around 4 light years away.

Given these 3 points, studies or arguments of intelligent alien visitors arriving on earth are only slightly less absurd than arguments about the rapture or Xenu. The level of technology that alien visitors would need to possess to travel the vast interstellar distances would make their tech indistinguishable from magic, and they could likely, if they so chose, appear to us as angels, gods, or vorlons ;).

61 King of the Douche, now you may bow  Fri, Aug 19, 2011 10:32:15am

Heh. I posted this this morning.
[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

62 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Fri, Aug 19, 2011 10:33:33am

re: #58 ElCapitanAmerica

I don't understand, are you saying the Catholic Church (today) doesn't accept evolution?

I'm saying they wouldn't have without the official word from the Pope.

63 RadicalModerate  Fri, Aug 19, 2011 10:34:06am

re: #55 jaunte

It was amazing that he happened to be carrying a Universal Connector.

And even more amazing that advanced alien civilizations use TCP/IP!

64 jaunte  Fri, Aug 19, 2011 10:35:10am

re: #63 RadicalModerate

It must have been the latest thing when they left the last planet.

65 Vicious Babushka  Fri, Aug 19, 2011 10:35:41am

re: #60 jc717

Charles, we'll have to agree to disagree on this. I'm all for speculative research. But, research shouldn't be done in a vacuum.

When it comes to aliens:
1) We're pretty sure that intelligent, spacefaring life doesn't exist elsewhere in the solar system.
2) We're pretty sure that FTL travel is impossible.
3) Space is really really big. The closest star to the sun is around 4 light years away.

Given these 3 points, studies or arguments of intelligent alien visitors arriving on earth are only slightly less absurd than arguments about the rapture or Xenu. The level of technology that alien visitors would need to possess to travel the vast interstellar distances would make their tech indistinguishable from magic, and they could likely, if they so chose, appear to us as angels, gods, or vorlons ;).

It is popular for "hip" people to attribute superhuman abilities to aliens from outer space, that were previously assigned to gods.

66 Daniel Ballard  Fri, Aug 19, 2011 10:35:58am

re: #60 jc717

Well we should both try to remember the topic is the RW blogs going all nutty. I just hate to go look. :-)

But yeah, this scenario is pretty remote. Just as a point of humor-Space research is often done in a vacuum.

67 Vicious Babushka  Fri, Aug 19, 2011 10:36:42am

re: #55 jaunte

It was amazing that he happened to be carrying a Universal Connector.

He hacked into the aliens' wi-fi!

(Oh wait, did they even have wi-fi in the '90's?)

68 MrSilverDragon  Fri, Aug 19, 2011 10:37:04am

re: #63 RadicalModerate

And even more amazing that advanced alien civilizations use TCP/IP!

We better start working on the IPv12 standard now. IPv6 just isn't going to cut it for interstellar travel.

/geek off

69 Vicious Babushka  Fri, Aug 19, 2011 10:38:56am

Well, speaking of 1990's technologies, I must get back to the steampunk database that I'm currently supporting.

70 wrenchwench  Fri, Aug 19, 2011 10:40:09am

re: #60 jc717

Charles, we'll have to agree to disagree on this. I'm all for speculative research. But, research shouldn't be done in a vacuum.

When it comes to aliens:
1) We're pretty sure that intelligent, spacefaring life doesn't exist elsewhere in the solar system.
2) We're pretty sure that FTL travel is impossible.
3) Space is really really big. The closest star to the sun is around 4 light years away.

Given these 3 points, studies or arguments of intelligent alien visitors arriving on earth are only slightly less absurd than arguments about the rapture or Xenu. The level of technology that alien visitors would need to possess to travel the vast interstellar distances would make their tech indistinguishable from magic, and they could likely, if they so chose, appear to us as angels, gods, or vorlons ;).

Your use of the terms "speculative research" in this comment and "practical science" in #23 suggest to me that you are not a scientist. So when you say, "We're pretty sure..." I have to wonder who "we" is.

*joke stolen by RWC deleted from this space*

71 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Fri, Aug 19, 2011 10:40:15am

re: #68 MrSilverDragon

We better start working on the IPv12 standard now. IPv6 just isn't going to cut it for interstellar travel.

/geek off

There's more IPv6 addresses than there are fundamental particles in the universe. I'm pretty sure we'll be safe enough.

/Besides, it'd be IPv8
//Yeah, I'm a total geek too

72 mr.fusion  Fri, Aug 19, 2011 10:40:22am

re: #65 Alouette

It is popular for "hip" people to attribute superhuman abilities to aliens from outer space, that were previously assigned to gods.

It's basically all that the History Channel show "Ancient Aliens" is about....

Which, by the way is probably my favorite guilty pleasure on TV. There's a lot of nonsense, but damn some of the stuff they show is just completely unexplainable

73 Lidane  Fri, Aug 19, 2011 10:42:06am

re: #72 mr.fusion

It's basically all that the History Channel show "Ancient Aliens" is about...

Which, by the way is probably my favorite guilty pleasure on TV. There's a lot of nonsense, but damn some of the stuff they show is just completely unexplainable

My guilty pleasure is Deadliest Warrior on Spike. Yeah, it's cheesy. Yeah, the fights are silly. But it's interesting to see the weapons being put to use and it's the manifestation of all those late night bull sessions when everyone was drunk and arguing over pirates vs. ninjas.

74 MrSilverDragon  Fri, Aug 19, 2011 10:43:36am

re: #71 thedopefishlives

There's more IPv6 addresses than there are fundamental particles in the universe. I'm pretty sure we'll be safe enough.

/Besides, it'd be IPv8
//Yeah, I'm a total geek too

I still don't think three hundred forty undecillion two hundred eighty-two decillion three hundred sixty-six nonillion nine hundred twenty octillion nine hundred thirty-eight septillion four hundred sixty-three sextillion four hundred sixty-three quintillion three hundred seventy-four quadrillion six hundred seven trillion four hundred thirty-one billion seven hundred sixty-eight million two hundred eleven thousand four hundred fifty-six is enough. I like to think big.

75 King of the Douche, now you may bow  Fri, Aug 19, 2011 10:44:00am

re: #72 mr.fusion

It's basically all that the History Channel show "Ancient Aliens" is about...

Which, by the way is probably my favorite guilty pleasure on TV. There's a lot of nonsense, but damn some of the stuff they show is just completely unexplainable

I watch that. What's weird is the little crafted pieces that look like planes, then they build them to a small scale.

76 Killgore Trout  Fri, Aug 19, 2011 10:44:57am

It's been a long time since I've seen a right wing blog issue a correction. Hot Air just updated....

Update (8/19): So goofy is this paper that we actually got an e-mail from a NASA spokesman this morning noting that it isn’t an official agency study. One of the authors is affiliated with NASA, but that’s it. Duly noted.
77 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Fri, Aug 19, 2011 10:44:58am

re: #73 Lidane

My guilty pleasure is Deadliest Warrior on Spike. Yeah, it's cheesy. Yeah, the fights are silly. But it's interesting to see the weapons being put to use and it's the manifestation of all those late night bull sessions when everyone was drunk and arguing over pirates vs. ninjas.

Yeah, my wife and I indulge in the show primarily to see some of the weapons that get used. The actual simulations don't carry as much weight given all the factors that they leave out or pull out of their ass.

78 Daniel Ballard  Fri, Aug 19, 2011 10:45:54am

re: #70 wrenchwench

Your use of the terms "speculative research" in this comment and "practical science" in #23 suggest to me that you are not a scientist. So when you say, "We're pretty sure..." I have to wonder who "we" is.

*joke stolen by RWC deleted from this space*

Oh I'm sorry! I was working on the long post a while, didn't read through the thread diligently.

79 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Fri, Aug 19, 2011 10:46:02am

re: #74 MrSilverDragon

So you were one of those ones that disagreed with Bill Gates when he said that 640k should be enough for anybody, am I right?

80 MrSilverDragon  Fri, Aug 19, 2011 10:46:38am

re: #79 thedopefishlives

So you were one of those ones that disagreed with Bill Gates when he said that 640k should be enough for anybody, am I right?

Guilty as charged.

81 wrenchwench  Fri, Aug 19, 2011 10:47:03am

re: #78 Rightwingconspirator

Oh I'm sorry! I was working on the long post a while, didn't read through the thread diligently.

You beat me to the "space is a vacuum" comment. Fair and square.

82 RadicalModerate  Fri, Aug 19, 2011 10:47:47am

re: #60 jc717

Charles, we'll have to agree to disagree on this. I'm all for speculative research. But, research shouldn't be done in a vacuum.

When it comes to aliens:
1) We're pretty sure that intelligent, spacefaring life doesn't exist elsewhere in the solar system.
2) We're pretty sure that FTL travel is impossible.
3) Space is really really big. The closest star to the sun is around 4 light years away.

Given these 3 points, studies or arguments of intelligent alien visitors arriving on earth are only slightly less absurd than arguments about the rapture or Xenu. The level of technology that alien visitors would need to possess to travel the vast interstellar distances would make their tech indistinguishable from magic, and they could likely, if they so chose, appear to us as angels, gods, or vorlons ;).

I have to disagree with you on point 2. FTL travel, by what we would call "conventional" means, isn't possible, as proved by Einstein. However, he also proved (via his Theory of Special Relativity) that we can accomplish the same movement via inter-dimensional travel. There's lots of mathematical research by guys like Stephen Hawking that has supported this. It's not a question of "can it be done", but more of a question of "is there a practical way for our technology to accomplish this". Currently it isn't the case, but humankind's technological advancement over the past hundred-odd years has been at a near logarithmic pace.

83 Vicious Babushka  Fri, Aug 19, 2011 10:49:24am

We'd all be flying around in our own personal hyperspace transporters if Henry Ford and Thomas Edison hadn't conspired together to take down Nikola Tesla!
//

84 Charles Johnson  Fri, Aug 19, 2011 10:49:57am

re: #60 jc717

When it comes to aliens:

1) We're pretty sure that intelligent, spacefaring life doesn't exist elsewhere in the solar system.

True.

2) We're pretty sure that FTL travel is impossible.

Not true. Many scientists have speculated about possible methods of FTL travel, and I don't think "impossible" is the right word to use. It's probably not going to be achievable very soon, true.

The level of technology that alien visitors would need to possess to travel the vast interstellar distances would make their tech indistinguishable from magic, and they could likely, if they so chose, appear to us as angels, gods, or vorlons ;).

I don't agree again --I think technology does not automatically impart godlike powers, even highly advanced technology. Suppose a completely unexpected breakthrough was made that allowed humans to travel intact through a 'wormhole' -- say, a hundred years from now. They'd still be humans, and they'd be pretty far from godlike.

Speculative research is a perfectly valid, even necessary part of science. Again, it's very shortsighted to say scientists shouldn't do this kind of thing.

85 Lidane  Fri, Aug 19, 2011 10:50:42am

re: #77 thedopefishlives

Yeah, my wife and I indulge in the show primarily to see some of the weapons that get used. The actual simulations don't carry as much weight given all the factors that they leave out or pull out of their ass.

This year they're trying to do "x-factors", like training, mental state, intimidation and all that. The end result has been closer fights. They're also doing big names instead of just generic fighters. It's different but I still end up calling bullshit on so many things.

86 King of the Douche, now you may bow  Fri, Aug 19, 2011 10:51:48am

re: #83 Alouette

We'd all be flying around in our own personal hyperspace transporters if Henry Ford and Thomas Edison hadn't conspired together to take down Nikola Tesla!
//

Tesla made a hurricane steering machine.
//

87 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Fri, Aug 19, 2011 10:52:44am

re: #85 Lidane

This year they're trying to do "x-factors", like training, mental state, intimidation and all that. The end result has been closer fights. They're also doing big names instead of just generic fighters. It's different but I still end up calling bullshit on so many things.

Yeah. The Mrs. Fish and I watched an episode on the Army Rangers vs. the North Korean Special Ops. It was a virtual tie, the Rangers won by literally like 8 fights or something ridiculously small like that. I'm fairly certain that were it to come down to it, it'd be a lot more one-sided than that.

88 Big Steve  Fri, Aug 19, 2011 10:54:45am

What I am wondering is why what we are doing now to the environment could possibly be detected any time soon by some alien race. If ET's were buzzing by our solar system in some sort of transport, they clearly would have had the technology to understand humans on Earth long ago. More likely as the study suggests, from afar they might have the technology to measure our atmosphere from the safety of their planet. Given that, and spectral data reaching them is years, hundred of years, if not millions of years behind. We are now examining for planets, using the Kepler mission, that are 175,000 light years away and have some rudimentary understanding of their atmospheres.

89 jc717  Fri, Aug 19, 2011 10:55:56am

re: #70 wrenchwench

Your use of the terms "speculative research" in this comment and "practical science" in #23 suggest to me that you are not a scientist. So when you say, "We're pretty sure..." I have to wonder who "we" is.

*joke stolen by RWC deleted from this space*

You're right, I am not a working scientist, and I don't play one on tv.

By 'we' I mean human state of knowledge/current scientific consensus of experts in their fields (which are largely synonymous to me).
It would be like saying "We're pretty sure that evolution and AGW are real." Even though I'm neither an evolutionary biologist or a climatologist.

Which of the 3 listed points do you think are in dispute by a sizable minority of the respective scientific fields?

'More practical' can still be very speculative when compared to studies involving 'alien encounters'.

Would you support more 'research' in homeopathy even though chemistry, physics, and years of well controlled studies tell us that it's nothing but placebo?

90 jc717  Fri, Aug 19, 2011 10:58:12am

re: #72 mr.fusion

It's basically all that the History Channel show "Ancient Aliens" is about...

Which, by the way is probably my favorite guilty pleasure on TV. There's a lot of nonsense, but damn some of the stuff they show is just completely unexplainable

I really REALLY hate the 'ancient alien visitor' crap. It's another way of saying :gee, how could those primitive brown people in Egypt/South America/ etc. have created all those wonders? It must have been aliens!
It's really insulting to the ingenuity of our ancestors.

91 wrenchwench  Fri, Aug 19, 2011 10:59:17am

re: #89 jc717

Which of the 3 listed points do you think are in dispute by a sizable minority of the respective scientific fields?

#2.

Would you support more 'research' in homeopathy even though chemistry, physics, and years of well controlled studies tell us that it's nothing but placebo?

No.

92 Big Steve  Fri, Aug 19, 2011 10:59:33am

further if ET's detected that we had become dangerous to our planet by poisoning that self-same planet, then why bother to exterminate us, we appear to be doing that quite well on our own.

93 recusancy  Fri, Aug 19, 2011 11:01:20am

Black swans and all that...

94 NJDhockeyfan  Fri, Aug 19, 2011 11:03:25am

re: #92 Big Steve

further if ET's detected that we had become dangerous to our planet by poisoning that self-same planet, then why bother to exterminate us, we appear to be doing that quite well on our own.

If they got another Illudium PU-36 Explosive Space Modulator, we are toast.


95 recusancy  Fri, Aug 19, 2011 11:03:41am

re: #89 jc717

Would you support more 'research' in homeopathy even though chemistry, physics, and years of well controlled studies tell us that it's nothing but placebo?

False equivalence. We can do controlled tests to prove or disprove homeopathy.

96 celticdragon  Fri, Aug 19, 2011 11:07:37am

re: #23 jc717

Well... this is rather absurd 'research'. The money could be better spent for practical science.
The reaction to this isn't much different at slashdot.org, definitely not an anti-science place.

[Link: science.slashdot.org...]

The reason I call this an absurd waste of money is that research grants/dollars are a very right finite resource. Given unlimited funds and scientists, I would have no problems with this, but that is not our reality.
The money and time that went towards paying for this could have gone towards something more useful like asteroid tracking.

We would be completely at the mercy of any interstellar travel capable civilization. It is entirely pointless to wonder about their motives or results, and we'd be completely powerless to do anything about them.

This really is 'how many angels can dance on the head of a pin' territory.

In human history, we have plenty of examples where more technologically advanced cultures end up wiping out or enslaving less advanced cultures. It isn;t a bad idea IMO to consider possibilities of something like that happeneing at some point to humanity as a whole. I have heard that the military has wargamed alien invasion scenarios...and we end up being mauled by the second day, (in some cases, within two hours of the onset of hostilities). However, when the games extends into decades, we cause enough trouble that the invaders are forced offworld.

No harm in being prepared, just in case the "Whack a mole" theory is actually true.

97 recusancy  Fri, Aug 19, 2011 11:07:41am

Charles, an fyi regarding your use of html strike tags... [Link: jsfiddle.net...] Although it doesn't look like you use any HTML5 so it's probably not a big concern for you.

98 RadicalModerate  Fri, Aug 19, 2011 11:08:09am

re: #83 Alouette

We'd all be flying around in our own personal hyperspace transporters if Henry Ford and Thomas Edison hadn't conspired together to take down Nikola Tesla!
//

As brilliant of a mind that Edison was, he also had a reputation for being an absolute ass on the subject of technology that competed with his. Read up on the history of Edison versus Westinghouse and Tesla regarding AC vs DC electrical systems (Edison was the DC purist, btw).
Also, one of the big reasons that major film studios located in California during the early 1900s was because of Edison's desire to monopolize motion picture technology, to the point of suing just about anyone who didn't use his devices. California had a geographical distance advantage, as well as courts that weren't in Edison's back pocket.

99 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Aug 19, 2011 11:08:37am

re: #8 BigPapa

I'm wondering how big of a coniption they'll have if life is actually discovered outside the Solar System.

see movie 'Contact' when fundamentalist blows up first space ship before it departs.

Playing a nutcase was typecasting for Jake Busy. Given how nuts his father is, it wasn't hard to believe Jake portraying a fanatic.

100 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Aug 19, 2011 11:09:42am

re: #93 recusancy

Black swans and all that...

Leave Mila Kunis out of this. Natalie Portman was in the Star Wars prequels, so she can stay in.

:D

101 Lidane  Fri, Aug 19, 2011 11:09:43am

re: #87 thedopefishlives

Yeah. The Mrs. Fish and I watched an episode on the Army Rangers vs. the North Korean Special Ops. It was a virtual tie, the Rangers won by literally like 8 fights or something ridiculously small like that. I'm fairly certain that were it to come down to it, it'd be a lot more one-sided than that.

After that show, I swore up and down that they ended in a virtual tie just to avoid any sort of diplomatic or PR issue in the press. If they'd showed the one-sided tank 'n spank job I'd expect the Rangers to do on North Korea, I guess the network was afraid they might have gotten blowback or something.

102 celticdragon  Fri, Aug 19, 2011 11:11:34am

re: #87 thedopefishlives

Yeah. The Mrs. Fish and I watched an episode on the Army Rangers vs. the North Korean Special Ops. It was a virtual tie, the Rangers won by literally like 8 fights or something ridiculously small like that. I'm fairly certain that were it to come down to it, it'd be a lot more one-sided than that.

NK spec ops don't have a couple of carrier battle groups and a bunch of heavy armor package M-1A1 Abrams tanks to help then out. They have biplanes (yes, really) meant to drop them into South Korea. They do have plenty of artillery. Not real discriminate, though.

103 Vicious Babushka  Fri, Aug 19, 2011 11:11:43am

re: #98 RadicalModerate

As brilliant of a mind that Edison was, he also had a reputation for being an absolute ass on the subject of technology that competed with his. Read up on the history of Edison versus Westinghouse and Tesla regarding AC vs DC electrical systems (Edison was the DC purist, btw).
Also, one of the big reasons that major film studios located in California during the early 1900s was because of Edison's desire to monopolize motion picture technology, to the point of suing just about anyone who didn't use his devices. California had a geographical distance advantage, as well as courts that weren't in Edison's back pocket.

It also seems to me that Ford/Edison succeeded to the extent that we are enslaved to their 100-year-old power grid and automotive technology.

I mean, the company that supplies power is called Edison and I drive a Ford!

104 celticdragon  Fri, Aug 19, 2011 11:13:20am

re: #100 Dark_Falcon

Leave Mila Kunis out of this. Natalie Portman was in the Star Wars prequels, so she can stay in.

:D

I really liked Portman in Black Swan. I actually used to be a ballet dancer, btw.

105 lawhawk  Fri, Aug 19, 2011 11:15:09am

Scientists are supposed to be able to plumb the plausible and the possible. They are supposed to be able to engage in thought experiments and look to examine possible outcomes of various scenarios.

It's just one part of many that could be plausible.

Then again, aliens could be like those in Independence Day, going from one world to another as scavengers. Or the V, who like us for our food (not unlike a certain Solyent Green product).

In other words, outrageous outrage over not much, but then again, it's another attack on science, the practices of scientists, and basic research.

106 Gus  Fri, Aug 19, 2011 11:21:55am

I'm trying to figure out what the problem here is academically. The title of the paper is "Would Contact with Extraterrestrials Benefit or Harm Humanity? A Scenario Analysis" which you can attain in PDF form here. It barely touches upon climate change. I am also reminded that Stephen Hawking has also pondered widely regarding the possibility of extraterrestrials to the point of warning us that contact should be avoided. So if this topic is good enough for Stephen Hawking shouldn't it be something we should also ponder in science? We are constantly searching for life in the outer planets -- namely Mars. Typically this is in its basic components or foundations such as water and oxygen. Hawking has stated to avoid contact while NASA has decided to go in the opposite direction.

107 Obdicut  Fri, Aug 19, 2011 11:27:38am

re: #23 jc717

Dude, think a little farther. If, for example, we created artificial intelligence, it would be very similar to contacting an alien life form. It is also totally useful to think of yourself outside your perspective; to imagine what another being would make of you. People have done it since Kant.

108 Gus  Fri, Aug 19, 2011 11:29:31am

re: #106 Gus 802

I'm trying to figure out what the problem here is academically. The title of the paper is "Would Contact with Extraterrestrials Benefit or Harm Humanity? A Scenario Analysis" which you can attain in PDF form here. It barely touches upon climate change. I am also reminded that Stephen Hawking has also pondered widely regarding the possibility of extraterrestrials to the point of warning us that contact should be avoided. So if this topic is good enough for Stephen Hawking shouldn't it be something we should also ponder in science? We are constantly searching for life in the outer planets -- namely Mars. Typically this is in its basic components or foundations such as water and oxygen. Hawking has stated to avoid contact while NASA has decided to go in the opposite direction.

In addition to Carl Sagan. Here's a search in .edu site for extraterrestrials carl sagan.

Or perhaps we should stand aside in awe. Allahpundit and his cadre of wingnuts has a greater mind then Carl Sagan and Stephen Hawking!

That of course is not even remotely possible. In a strange way, or perhaps not, opposition to these studies is part and parcel with the Christian right wing view as represented by Salem Communications? Or is it possible that Salem happens to peddle the more pedestrian and invalid version of this subject in the form of "late night UFO radio" programing.

109 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Aug 19, 2011 11:33:27am

re: #102 celticdragon

NK spec ops don't have a couple of carrier battle groups and a bunch of heavy armor package M-1A1 Abrams tanks to help then out. They have biplanes (yes, really) meant to drop them into South Korea. They do have plenty of artillery. Not real discriminate, though.

It would be kind funny seeing our Ospreys go after those AN-2s, though. It would be an outright turkey shoot.

110 Gus  Fri, Aug 19, 2011 11:34:55am

Of course here's what Salem Communications pimps out:

New Book 'The Curs-ed Net' Shines Light on UFO & Abduction Phenomena

Byron LeBeau worked with world-renowned UFO authority Colman Von Keviczky during the 1970s and '80s. LeBeau became a UFO researcher and has led numerous UFO and paranormal discussions on local public access TV. Richard Stout and a friend started a UFO organization that investigated UFO sightings. After he experienced personal encounters with UFOs, he found himself in the midst of a spiritual battle that was only quelled when he cried out to God. Since then, he has felt inspired to decode certain key words in Scripture that pertain to the UFO phenomenon.

[Link: www.TheCursedNet.com...]

Xulon Press, a part of Salem Communications Corporation, is the world's largest Christian publisher, with more than 4,000 titles published to date. Retailers may order The Curs-ed Net through Ingram Book Company and/or Spring Arbor Book Distributors.

Yep. Salem Communications (Allahpundit's boss) is selling the superstitious version of extraterrestrials with the usual "Bronze Age" lunacy.

111 superhawk  Fri, Aug 19, 2011 11:35:18am

What I found spectacularly stupid about the part of the study regarding aliens destroying us because of how we treat the earth is the fact that it is painfully obvious the scientists didn't get any input from SETI scientists.

The chances of aliens possessing the same cognitive abilities as humans are incredibly remote. Not that they would be inferior or superior, just different. The idea that they would be able to draw the same conclusions as humans regarding our fouling the earth is nutty.

The scientists in this study blithely assumed that the aliens would reason the same we we do. For that reason alone, the study should be dismissed for incompetency.

112 Obdicut  Fri, Aug 19, 2011 11:42:47am

re: #111 superhawk

They don't blithely assume it. They just assume it. And you're wrong in saying that all "SETI scientists" agree that all alien intelligence would be fundamentally different from human.

113 allegro  Fri, Aug 19, 2011 11:44:57am

re: #111 superhawk

What I found spectacularly stupid about the part of the study regarding aliens destroying us because of how we treat the earth is the fact that it is painfully obvious the scientists didn't get any input from SETI scientists.

The chances of aliens possessing the same cognitive abilities as humans are incredibly remote. Not that they would be inferior or superior, just different. The idea that they would be able to draw the same conclusions as humans regarding our fouling the earth is nutty.

The scientists in this study blithely assumed that the aliens would reason the same we we do. For that reason alone, the study should be dismissed for incompetency.

Species that foul their homes to the point of killing themselves off along with most of the other species inhabiting the planet is stupid by any methods of reasoning.

114 Gus  Fri, Aug 19, 2011 11:46:52am

re: #111 superhawk

What I found spectacularly stupid about the part of the study regarding aliens destroying us because of how we treat the earth is the fact that it is painfully obvious the scientists didn't get any input from SETI scientists.

The chances of aliens possessing the same cognitive abilities as humans are incredibly remote. Not that they would be inferior or superior, just different. The idea that they would be able to draw the same conclusions as humans regarding our fouling the earth is nutty.

The scientists in this study blithely assumed that the aliens would reason the same we we do. For that reason alone, the study should be dismissed for incompetency.

Did you read the whole "study"?

Incidentally, it's not a study but a "scenario analysis" hence the title "Would Contact with Extraterrestrials Benefit or Harm Humanity? A Scenario Analysis"

Scenario analysis is a process of analyzing possible future events by considering alternative possible outcomes (scenarios). Thus, the scenario analysis, which is a main method of projections, does not try to show one exact picture of the future. Instead, it presents consciously several alternative future developments. Consequently, a scope of possible future outcomes is observable. Not only are the outcomes observable, also the development paths leading to the outcomes. In contrast to prognoses, the scenario analysis is not using extrapolation of the past. It does not rely on historical data and does not expect past observations to be still valid in the future. Instead, it tries to consider possible developments and turning points, which may only be connected to the past. In short, several scenarios are demonstrated in a scenario analysis to show possible future outcomes. It is useful to generate a combination of an optimistic, a pessimistic, and a most likely scenario. Although highly discussed, experience has shown that around three scenarios are most appropriate for further discussion and selection. More scenarios could make the analysis unclear.

115 Shiplord Kirel  Fri, Aug 19, 2011 11:49:59am

Science fiction, in its best guise, is not a predictor of the future, but a vehicle for examining a range of possible scenarios and implications: "If X is discovered, then Y, then what?"
As such it provides a nearly endless supply of alien contact scenarios ranging from the wholly plausible to the plainly ridiculous.
"Alien concern" stories, where aliens intervene because of some alarming trend they have observed among humans, are a whole sub-genre. The classic film The Day the Earth Stood Still is a great example. These stories tend to reflect primary human concerns of the day, nuclear proliferation in the case of Day the Earth Stood Still.
The writer's speculation about what a more advanced society might think is really a projection, a rendering in fiction, of what he or she thinks we would think if we were a more advanced society. This compares where we are to where we want to be, or what the author thinks we should be.
I don't think real aliens would attack us because of our environmental policies. If they were aware of these policies in the first place, they would have to also be aware of the great efforts being made, especially among scientists, to promote benign and rational policies. That level of concern for the environment would also seem to be incompatible with a genocidal militarism, or xenocidal in this case, but that is not a foregone conclusion. More likely they might pass on a chance to make a beneficial contact after watching the trends carefully and reaching a negative conclusion about our viability and future development.

116 wrenchwench  Fri, Aug 19, 2011 11:50:59am
117 Charles Johnson  Fri, Aug 19, 2011 11:53:00am

re: #114 Gus 802

Scenario analysis is a process of analyzing possible future events by considering alternative possible outcomes (scenarios). Thus, the scenario analysis, which is a main method of projections, does not try to show one exact picture of the future. Instead, it presents consciously several alternative future developments. Consequently, a scope of possible future outcomes is observable. Not only are the outcomes observable, also the development paths leading to the outcomes. In contrast to prognoses, the scenario analysis is not using extrapolation of the past. It does not rely on historical data and does not expect past observations to be still valid in the future. Instead, it tries to consider possible developments and turning points, which may only be connected to the past. In short, several scenarios are demonstrated in a scenario analysis to show possible future outcomes. It is useful to generate a combination of an optimistic, a pessimistic, and a most likely scenario. Although highly discussed, experience has shown that around three scenarios are most appropriate for further discussion and selection. More scenarios could make the analysis unclear.

You ain't foolin' nobody with that scientismic mumbo jumbo.

118 Gus  Fri, Aug 19, 2011 11:56:15am

re: #117 Charles

You ain't foolin' nobody with that scientismic mumbo jumbo.

Yeah. I think all things considered it's hilarious to read what Allahpundit has to say (which is a complete waste of time) juxtaposed against Carl Sagan and Stephen Hawking all the while Salem Communications (owner of Hot Air) is peddling UFO/God/Bible conspiracy books. Haven't checked their radio programming yet.

119 Kronocide  Fri, Aug 19, 2011 11:58:54am

re: #111 superhawk

You obviously can't comprehend that reasoning is only achievable in humans. Most humans can't reason.

Or, my other response.... REJECT REJECT REJECT!

120 Daniel Ballard  Fri, Aug 19, 2011 12:02:02pm

Why would aliens want to come here?
To Serve Man

121 Romantic Heretic  Fri, Aug 19, 2011 12:13:06pm

I'm thinking of David Brin's Uplift Universe. In that the aliens would kill us. In their opinion any species that fouls its nest the way we are is Too Stupid To Live.

Their rules are so strict species must every few million years leave whatever planet they're on, destroy everything they built and leave the planet for evolution to have a while to work.

I quite enjoyed the series. Especially Startide Rising.

122 Gus  Fri, Aug 19, 2011 12:26:16pm

Ronald Reagan - Threat of ETs among us

Apparently, Ronald Reagan thought an "alien threat" would bring the world together.

*Note: Not an endorsement in from me. However, pointing out here that even Saint Reagan thought about these things.

123 SidewaysQuark  Fri, Aug 19, 2011 12:28:33pm

Well, there's a reason this is categorized as "popular science" in the ArXivs. This isn't MEANT to be taken as a rigorous scientific study.

124 Gus  Fri, Aug 19, 2011 12:29:22pm

More Ronald Reagan quotes:

I couldn’t help but - when you stop to think that we’re all God’s children, wherever we live in the world, I couldn’t help but say to him (Gorbachev) just how easy his task and mine might be if suddenly there was a threat to this world from some other species from another planet outside in the universe. We’d forget all the little local differences that we have between our countries and we would find out once and for all that we really are all human beings here on this Earth together.

and

In our obsession with antagonisms of the moment, we often forget how much unites all the members of humanity. Perhaps we need some outside, universal threat to make us recognize this common bond. I occasionally think how quickly our differences worldwide would vanish if we were facing an alien threat from outside of this world. And yet I ask - is not an alien force already among us?

and

At our meeting in Geneva, the U.S. President said that if the earth faced an invasion by extraterrestrials, the United states and the Soviet Union would join forces to repel such an invasion. I shall not dispute the hypothesis, although I think it’s early yet to worry about such an intrusion.

125 Gus  Fri, Aug 19, 2011 12:48:36pm

re: #124 Gus 802

Correction. That last quote was from Gorbachev. However, it's clear that Ronald Reagan had extraterrestrials on his mind from time to time.

126 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Tears  Fri, Aug 19, 2011 12:59:27pm

re: #73 Lidane

My guilty pleasure is Deadliest Warrior on Spike. Yeah, it's cheesy. Yeah, the fights are silly. But it's interesting to see the weapons being put to use and it's the manifestation of all those late night bull sessions when everyone was drunk and arguing over pirates vs. ninjas.

If they do add Teddy Roosevelt to one I presume their simulation program interface has a radio button on it labeled "Total Badass" so that they can properly apply it for him.

127 Achilles Tang  Fri, Aug 19, 2011 1:34:56pm

re: #111 superhawk

What I found spectacularly stupid about the part of the study regarding aliens destroying us because of how we treat the earth is the fact that it is painfully obvious the scientists didn't get any input from SETI scientists.

I agree. It is a silly assumption and presumably they got the idea from watching the movie and listening to Klatu.

The chances of aliens possessing the same cognitive abilities as humans are incredibly remote. Not that they would be inferior or superior, just different. The idea that they would be able to draw the same conclusions as humans regarding our fouling the earth is nutty.

Now that is silly. They may have different tastes in food for example, or be closer to insects and have a problem with insecticides, but reason is reason or else you would have the greatest respect for Tea Baggers.

The scientists in this study blithely assumed that the aliens would reason the same we we do. For that reason alone, the study should be dismissed for incompetency.

Sorry. Fail on that.

128 Funky_Gibbon  Fri, Aug 19, 2011 1:48:05pm

re: #3 MrSilverDragon

I don't think the aliens will come to kill us if we're in the process of destroying the environment. I think they'd be smart enough to know that we'd end up destroying ourselves without their intervention, and they could just reap the benefits of whatever natural resources that are actually left.

I could be wrong but I think the point of that particular scenario wasn't that we'd kill ourselves, it was that we'd prove ourselves unable to support our species without being expansionist which would be considered a threat by these aliens.

TBH this same scenario study could have been done simply by reading a lot of science fiction books. They've been dreaming up these scenarios for years.

129 Gus  Fri, Aug 19, 2011 3:27:00pm
130 mr.fusion  Fri, Aug 19, 2011 4:10:16pm

re: #125 Gus 802

Correction. That last quote was from Gorbachev. However, it's clear that Ronald Reagan had extraterrestrials on his mind from time to time.

I saw an interview with Spielburg for the 25th anniversary of ET. He said after a screening of the movie at the WH Reagan came up to him and said "you have no idea how close to the truth that movie is."

131 Roper Doper  Fri, Aug 19, 2011 5:40:01pm

This is my first post.

I have 3 questions about global warming:

1) Did we have an Ice Age?

2) Did we have multiple Ice Ages?

3) If the answer is yes to questions 1 & 2, what happened between those periods of time?

132 wrenchwench  Fri, Aug 19, 2011 5:44:30pm

re: #131 Roper Doper

This is my first post.

I have 3 questions about global warming:

1) Did we have an Ice Age?

2) Did we have multiple Ice Ages?

3) If the answer is yes to questions 1 & 2, what happened between those periods of time?

1.) Yes

2.) Yes

3.) It warmed up.

4.) This time it is doing it differently, due to the effects of human input to the system.

Welcome, hatchling. The "Massive Anti-Science Fail Mode" thread was a good place to jump in.

133 Obdicut  Fri, Aug 19, 2011 5:45:30pm

re: #131 Roper Doper

Most of your questions about the fallacious arguments of the deniers can be found here:

[Link: www.skepticalscience.com...]

134 Charles Johnson  Fri, Aug 19, 2011 6:46:43pm

re: #131 Roper Doper

I have a question too:

Do you think we're stupid around here?


This article has been archived.
Comments are closed.

Jump to top

Create a PageThis is the LGF Pages posting bookmarklet. To use it, drag this button to your browser's bookmark bar, and title it 'LGF Pages' (or whatever you like). Then browse to a site you want to post, select some text on the page to use for a quote, click the bookmarklet, and the Pages posting window will appear with the title, text, and any embedded video or audio files already filled in, ready to go.
Or... you can just click this button to open the Pages posting window right away.
Last updated: 2023-04-04 11:11 am PDT
LGF User's Guide RSS Feeds

Help support Little Green Footballs!

Subscribe now for ad-free access!Register and sign in to a free LGF account before subscribing, and your ad-free access will be automatically enabled.

Donate with
PayPal
Cash.app
Recent PagesClick to refresh
The Pandemic Cost 7 Million Lives, but Talks to Prevent a Repeat Stall In late 2021, as the world reeled from the arrival of the highly contagious omicron variant of the coronavirus, representatives of almost 200 countries met - some online, some in-person in Geneva - hoping to forestall a future worldwide ...
Cheechako
3 days ago
Views: 116 • Comments: 0 • Rating: 1
Texas County at Center of Border Fight Is Overwhelmed by Migrant Deaths EAGLE PASS, Tex. - The undertaker lighted a cigarette and held it between his latex-gloved fingers as he stood over the bloated body bag lying in the bed of his battered pickup truck. The woman had been fished out ...
Cheechako
2 weeks ago
Views: 277 • Comments: 0 • Rating: 1