Court Rules in Favor of Teacher Who Called Creationism ‘Superstitious Nonsense’

Creationists lose another case in California
Wingnuts • Views: 34,134

The latest attempt by creationists to get their nonsensical beliefs afforded special protection in public schools has been struck down by a federal appeals court: US judges rule in favor of teacher who called creationism ‘superstitious nonsense’.

A public high school teacher in California may not be sued for making hostile remarks about religion in his classroom, a federal appeals court ruled on Friday.

The decision stems from a lawsuit filed by a student charging that the teacher’s hostile remarks about creationism and religious faith violated a First Amendment mandate that the government remain neutral in matters of religion.

A three-judge panel of the Ninth US Circuit Court of Appeals ruled unanimously that the lawsuit against an advanced placement history teacher at Capistrano Valley High School in Mission Viejo must be thrown out of court because the teacher was entitled to immunity.

The San Francisco-based appeals court said the teacher was entitled to immunity because it was not clearly established in the law that a teacher’s expression of hostility to certain religious beliefs in a public school classroom would violate the First Amendment’s establishment clause.

The establishment clause requires that officials act with neither favor nor disfavor toward religion and the religious.

“We are aware of no prior case holding that a teacher violated the establishment clause by appearing critical of religion during class lectures, nor any case with sufficiently similar facts to give a teacher ‘fair warning’ that such conduct was unlawful,” Judge Raymond Fisher wrote for the court.

So ends yet another ham-handed attempt to pervert the meaning of the Establishment Clause and turn it into a defense of enforced fundamentalist Christianity in public schools. Thankfully, the federal judges saw through this flimsy ruse.

But the reason why this teacher is being targeted by the creationist right is because he scares them. He’s effective. He’s making brainwashed kids think about their unquestioned assumptions.

The larger agenda of the religious right is to intimidate any teachers who speak the truth about creationism, with the threat of legal action and the accompanying huge bills.

They can’t be allowed to succeed.

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780 comments
1 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 6:40:05pm

Goooo, mighty 9th.

Judicial activism ftw, baby!

2 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 6:51:40pm

I'm going to have to disagree here. I think that for a teacher to put down a student's beliefs like that was unprofessional and grounds for a reprimand at minimum. I also not sure this conclusion will be upheld. The 9th Circuit en masse would likely uphold it, but that doesn't say much. The 9th is the most liberal circuit in the country, and it's long been too liberal to be worthy of respect in my eyes.

3 Targetpractice  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 6:52:46pm

How sad is it that, in this day and age, we actually have to have a court toss out such a case? What happened to sanity in this nation?

4 Achilles Tang  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 6:53:53pm

From Lidane's page on the sublect:

Texas biology teachers must teach evolution, can't teach Creationism, and can't teach Intelligent Design or any other forms of crypto-Creationism. But the state's curriculum does require schools to teach students to analyze and critique all scientific theories.

Never mind the bit about scientific theory; regardless it seems to me that "superstitious nonsense" is a genuine critique, well within the Texas school guidelines.

5 Charles Johnson  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 6:54:07pm

re: #2 Dark_Falcon

I'm going to have to disagree here. I think that for a teacher to put down a student's beliefs like that was unprofessional and grounds for a reprimand at minimum. I also not sure this conclusion will be upheld. The 9th Circuit en masse would likely uphold it, but that doesn't say much. The 9th is the most liberal circuit in the country, and it's long been too liberal to be worthy of respect in my eyes.

Even if I agreed that his statements were "unprofessional and grounds for a reprimand" (I don't -- he's right on a purely factual basis), that's a helluva long way from a violation of the First Amendment of the US Constitution.

6 albusteve  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 6:54:26pm

she's more polite than I am

7 albusteve  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 6:55:29pm

re: #3 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

How sad is it that, in this day and age, we actually have to have a court toss out such a case? What happened to sanity in this nation?

my thoughts, exactly...
what a farce we are reduced to

8 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 6:55:50pm

re: #2 Dark_Falcon

I'm going to have to disagree here. I think that for a teacher to put down a student's beliefs like that was unprofessional and grounds for a reprimand at minimum. I also not sure this conclusion will be upheld. The 9th Circuit en masse would likely uphold it, but that doesn't say much. The 9th is the most liberal circuit in the country, and it's long been too liberal to be worthy of respect in my eyes.

I'm going to hit a middle ground: it sounds to me as though the Ninth's legal reasoning is sound, however, I think his behavior was unprofessional. Lawsuit level unprofessional? No. Inappropriate in a classroom? Yes.

When you are a teacher, you have a big bully pulpit. I've had the creationism conversation before, (and I'm not even a science teacher), and there are better and more education, professional, and caring ways to do it than what it sounds like he did.

Once you get to college teaching, go wild. The kid can then leave the classroom, or tell you you're going to hell without getting detention.

9 Gus  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 6:56:13pm

re: #2 Dark_Falcon

I'm going to have to disagree here. I think that for a teacher to put down a student's beliefs like that was unprofessional and grounds for a reprimand at minimum. I also not sure this conclusion will be upheld. The 9th Circuit en masse would likely uphold it, but that doesn't say much. The 9th is the most liberal circuit in the country, and it's long been too liberal to be worthy of respect in my eyes.

Sorry, I can't agree at all with the assessment.

10 albusteve  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 6:57:04pm

hardball...where the rubber hits the road
in court

11 FreedomMoon  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 6:58:48pm

While I agree the teacher could have chosen different words, if anything I think this may have merited a "talk" with the principle, even though I agree wholeheartedly that creationism is superstitious nonsense (that and a whole lot of other shit.) But since the kids' parents decided to politicize the issue I'm glad the courts smacked it down. I'll call it a win for the people behind the Orange Curtain. (If you live in Orange County you'll know what I mean, conservatism courses through every white persons' veins in these parts...)

12 Varek Raith  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 6:59:14pm

Creationism is superstitious nonsense.
Deal with it.
/Jerkmode
:)

13 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 6:59:41pm

re: #2 Dark_Falcon

I'm going to have to disagree here. I think that for a teacher to put down a student's beliefs like that was unprofessional and grounds for a reprimand at minimum. I also not sure this conclusion will be upheld. The 9th Circuit en masse would likely uphold it, but that doesn't say much. The 9th is the most liberal circuit in the country, and it's long been too liberal to be worthy of respect in my eyes.


blah blah blah liberal blah blah blah

14 Charles Johnson  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 7:00:32pm

Bottom line: creationism IS superstitious nonsense, and the right wingers who refuse to drop the crusade are doing a huge disservice to the United States.

I applaud and support any teacher who conveys this message to his/her students. It's time to stop indulging fanaticism. It's costing us.

15 jaunte  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 7:00:39pm
“All I’m saying is that, you know, the people who want to make the argument that God did it, there is as much evidence that God did it as there is that there is a giant spaghetti monster living behind the moon who did it,” the transcript says.

Corbett told his students that “real” scientists try to disprove the theory of evolution. “Contrast that with creationists,” he told his students. “They never try to disprove creationism. They’re all running around trying to prove it. That’s deduction. It’s not science. Scientifically, it’s nonsense.”


I see nothing to argue with in the teacher's statements. Scientifically, it is nonsense.

16 Gus  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 7:00:44pm

Creationism is major superstitious nonsense.

Hear, hear!

17 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 7:00:46pm

re: #5 Charles

Even if I agreed that his statements were "unprofessional and grounds for a reprimand" (I don't -- he's right on a purely factual basis), that's a helluva long way from a violation of the First Amendment of the US Constitution.

I don't consider "factually true" to be a defense against a charge of not being professional. It's never been such at any public-facing job I've ever had. Dealing with the public often requires passing over unpleasant silence. I'll agree that the case itself was weak, but I'm not sure the teacher should have had immunity.

That said, I'd probably end up supporting that immunity myself, on grounds that not doing so would expose schools to a small wave of SLAPP* lawsuits.

SLAAP: Strategic Lawsuit Against Public Participation

18 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 7:01:59pm

re: #13 WindUpBird

Charles and Gus I listen to, you're still on my shit list.

19 aagcobb  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 7:02:23pm

re: #2 Dark_Falcon

I'm going to have to disagree here. I think that for a teacher to put down a student's beliefs like that was unprofessional and grounds for a reprimand at minimum. I also not sure this conclusion will be upheld. The 9th Circuit en masse would likely uphold it, but that doesn't say much. The 9th is the most liberal circuit in the country, and it's long been too liberal to be worthy of respect in my eyes.

But that was not the issue. It sounds like the only issue was whether the teacher was immune from suit. If a right is not "clearly established", then even if the teacher did violate that right, he is protected from suit by qualified immunity. I would have to read the opinion to know if the 9th Circuit determined his statement was a violation of constitutional law, which would then create a "clearly established" right which would deny teachers immunity for making such statements in the future.

20 jaunte  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 7:02:35pm

Science teachers should be allowed to teach their students what science and the scientific method is, without worrying about how the students feel about it.

21 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 7:02:44pm

re: #2 Dark_Falcon

I'm going to have to disagree here. I think that for a teacher to put down a student's beliefs like that was unprofessional and grounds for a reprimand at minimum. I also not sure this conclusion will be upheld. The 9th Circuit en masse would likely uphold it, but that doesn't say much. The 9th is the most liberal circuit in the country, and it's long been too liberal to be worthy of respect in my eyes.

What past decisions by the Ninth are you thinking of that would undermine their decision in your eyes?

22 Achilles Tang  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 7:02:55pm

re: #2 Dark_Falcon

I'm going to have to disagree here. I think that for a teacher to put down a student's beliefs like that was unprofessional and grounds for a reprimand at minimum. I also not sure this conclusion will be upheld. The 9th Circuit en masse would likely uphold it, but that doesn't say much. The 9th is the most liberal circuit in the country, and it's long been too liberal to be worthy of respect in my eyes.

You know very well that there is no way that creationism (as science) can be discussed in a science context without being described as superstition.

We (here) have had this discussion before and I agree that there is no place for schools to put down religious beliefs, but when it comes to science there is no compromise. Either creationists should be allowed to keep their children out of science classes, or there should be a clear cut rule that no discussion is allowed to even mention "creationism", from student or teacher.

(yes, I know that would put some people on the spot).

23 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 7:02:56pm

re: #4 Naso Tang

From Lidane's page on the sublect:

Never mind the bit about scientific theory; regardless it seems to me that "superstitious nonsense" is a genuine critique, well within the Texas school guidelines.

Except that this man teaches in California.

24 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 7:03:03pm

re: #8 SanFranciscoZionist

I'm going to hit a middle ground: it sounds to me as though the Ninth's legal reasoning is sound, however, I think his behavior was unprofessional. Lawsuit level unprofessional? No. Inappropriate in a classroom? Yes.

When you are a teacher, you have a big bully pulpit. I've had the creationism conversation before, (and I'm not even a science teacher), and there are better and more education, professional, and caring ways to do it than what it sounds like he did.

Once you get to college teaching, go wild. The kid can then leave the classroom, or tell you you're going to hell without getting detention.

I agree with you. The teachers actions were in error, but I don't think a 1st Amendment lawsuit is the correct remedy.

25 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 7:03:07pm

re: #17 Dark_Falcon

what school did you go to that you never had a teacher that was critical of a student's factually ludicrous assertions?

26 Charles Johnson  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 7:03:11pm

re: #20 jaunte

Science teachers should be allowed to teach their students what science and the scientific method is, without worrying about how the students feel about it.

Exactly.

27 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 7:03:14pm

re: #18 Dark_Falcon

Charles and Gus I listen to, you're still on my shit list.

Tits!

28 albusteve  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 7:04:51pm

the mumbo jumbo doesn't bother me...the long rang political effects do

29 Achilles Tang  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 7:05:17pm

re: #23 SanFranciscoZionist

Except that this man teaches in California.

picky picky, I'm a federalist.

30 Gus  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 7:05:41pm

re: #23 SanFranciscoZionist

Except that this man teaches in California.

Home of the monster truck.

//

31 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 7:06:22pm

re: #20 jaunte

Science teachers should be allowed to teach their students what science and the scientific method is, without worrying about how the students feel about it.

Yes, they should, but that doesn't seem to be what the issue here was.

Guys, I think the Ninth called this one right, but it's not Scopes. This guy wasn't told to stop teaching science.

32 Charles Johnson  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 7:06:25pm

re: #20 jaunte

Science teachers should be allowed to teach their students what science and the scientific method is, without worrying about how the students feel about it.

To expand on this point -- the reason why this teacher is being targeted by the creationist right is because he scares them. The larger agenda is to intimidate any teachers who speak the truth about creationism, with the threat of legal action and the accompanying huge bills.

They can't be allowed to succeed.

33 Mr Pancakes  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 7:06:45pm

re: #30 Gus 802

Home of the monster truck.

//

And the BOOM BOX

34 FreedomMoon  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 7:07:14pm

re: #14 Charles

Bottom line: creationism IS superstitious nonsense, and the right wingers who refuse to drop the crusade are doing a huge disservice to the United States.

I applaud and support any teacher who conveys this message to his/her students. It's time to stop indulging fanaticism. It's costing us.

Do you think statements like that will really be a wake-up call to those students who are held basically in a trance by their incorrect parental/religious upbringing? I was raised that way, and honestly the cold hard facts and evidence from a really engaging and interesting 9th grade biology teacher was what allowed me to see past the creationist bullshit. It rang like music to my ears to see how everything pieced together and I knew right away the 6,000 y/o earth fairytale was in fact a fairytale.

Anyways, I don't think criticizing students beliefs, as weird as they may be, is necessarily the best way to approach it.

35 Obdicut  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 7:07:16pm

re: #2 Dark_Falcon

Just let the teacher teach without having to worry if some religion or another is going to be offended by whichever myth of theirs is being dismissed.

He was a bit of a jerk about it. It's not a Constitutional issue.

36 Gus  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 7:07:43pm

So if a student decided that astrology should be taught in place of astronomy and the teacher called astrology "superstitious nonsense" that would be "offensive?" Who's the authority figure here the teacher or the student?

37 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 7:08:55pm

re: #22 Naso Tang

You know very well that there is no way that creationism (as science) can be discussed in a science context without being described as superstition.

Teachers need to understand how to discuss and apply NOMA with their students. "I am going to teach you what scientists know about these matters and how they found it out. I am not here to discuss religious issues," is not an inappropriate statement.

If someone is going to push the argument over the edge, let it be the kid and the kid's parents.

38 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 7:09:18pm

re: #35 Obdicut

Just let the teacher teach without having to worry if some religion or another is going to be offended by whichever myth of theirs is being dismissed.

He was a bit of a jerk about it. It's not a Constitutional issue.

it's funny, every good teacher I had, every single one of my favorite teachers, from jr. high to college, was considered a jerk by some of the students

you know, because they had strong personalities and strong opinions (and of course were smart) and felt that being a teacher was a higher calling than just babysittting teenagers

39 Targetpractice  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 7:10:06pm

re: #35 Obdicut

Just let the teacher teach without having to worry if some religion or another is going to be offended by whichever myth of theirs is being dismissed.

He was a bit of a jerk about it. It's not a Constitutional issue.

Being a jerk about it is pretty much the only way to get through to some students. The real world isn't going to coddle them, why should teachers?

40 A Man for all Seasons  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 7:10:08pm

re: #20 jaunte

Science teachers should be allowed to teach their students what science and the scientific method is, without worrying about how the students feel about it.

Those dang nuns were the same way..Pure science in Science class and religion in catechism class...When you take a class on the Gas laws you better not try to say it is a magic miracle from God.. That earns you an F

41 Mr Pancakes  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 7:10:12pm

re: #36 Gus 802

So if a student decided that astrology should be taught in place of astronomy and the teacher called astrology "superstitious nonsense" that would be "offensive?" Who's the authority figure here the teacher or the student?

I think the teacher should say.... I am teaching astronomy here not astrology and leave it at that. You must remember there are parents behind the student.

42 b_sharp  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 7:10:14pm

Creationism is a form of snake oil that has historically had special protection in western society. It's time to expose the fraud and start giving it the respect it deserves.

43 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 7:10:52pm

re: #25 WindUpBird

what school did you go to that you never had a teacher that was critical of a student's factually ludicrous assertions?

Hilariously, I managed to get through all of my education without watching a teacher need to call a student's faith superstition, and we got taught science.

Even more hilariously, I've watched many, many science teachers over the course of the years manage this tightrope walk without breaking a sweat.

44 Gus  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 7:11:17pm

re: #41 Mr Pancakes

I think the teacher should say... I am teaching astronomy here not astrology and leave it at that. You must remember there are parents behind the student.

Yes, of course in there is in this massively PC world. Wouldn't want to hurt anyone's feelings.

45 albusteve  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 7:11:39pm

re: #36 Gus 802

So if a student decided that astrology should be taught in place of astronomy and the teacher called astrology "superstitious nonsense" that would be "offensive?" Who's the authority figure here the teacher or the student?

the student, and their posse...
we are raising a new gen that is totally narcissistic, just like their parents

46 Varek Raith  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 7:11:42pm

I believe Pi = exactly 3.
I would expect my math teacher to say that's nonsense.

47 Achilles Tang  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 7:12:13pm

re: #37 SanFranciscoZionist

Teachers need to understand how to discuss and apply NOMA with their students. "I am going to teach you what scientists know about these matters and how they found it out. I am not here to discuss religious issues," is not an inappropriate statement.

If someone is going to push the argument over the edge, let it be the kid and the kid's parents.

I haven't researched the details of this case, but if a teacher happens to blurt out, quite correctly, that creationism is superstitious nonsense (I imagine in response to questioning), and that results in the student getting the parents to file a lawsuit... then tell me just who is pushing what over the edge?

48 b_sharp  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 7:12:49pm

re: #41 Mr Pancakes

I think the teacher should say... I am teaching astronomy here not astrology and leave it at that. You must remember there are parents behind the student.

Parents with chips on their shoulders or sticks up their asses.

49 aagcobb  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 7:12:58pm

Having read the article, it appears that the 9th Circuit did not decide whether the teacher's statements were constitutionally impermissible. This means that a teacher who makes similar statements in the future will still be protected from suit by qualified immunity. That's good; teachers should be free to teach without having to worry that some cultist will sue them for offending their bizarre beliefs.

50 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 7:14:32pm

re: #43 SanFranciscoZionist

Hilariously, I managed to get through all of my education without watching a teacher need to call a student's faith superstition, and we got taught science.

Even more hilariously, I've watched many, many science teachers over the course of the years manage this tightrope walk without breaking a sweat.

I had more than my fair share of smart-ass teachers (which was fine by me) I think it was just the luck of the draw :D

51 jamesfirecat  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 7:14:42pm

re: #2 Dark_Falcon

I'm going to have to disagree here. I think that for a teacher to put down a student's beliefs like that was unprofessional and grounds for a reprimand at minimum. I also not sure this conclusion will be upheld. The 9th Circuit en masse would likely uphold it, but that doesn't say much. The 9th is the most liberal circuit in the country, and it's long been too liberal to be worthy of respect in my eyes.

I think you left out the part where you call them activist judges Dark.

52 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 7:14:44pm

re: #36 Gus 802

So if a student decided that astrology should be taught in place of astronomy and the teacher called astrology "superstitious nonsense" that would be "offensive?" Who's the authority figure here the teacher or the student?

The teacher, which is why you need to show some common sense.

If a student decides that astrology is better than astronomy? You tell them that you're here to do astronomy, and why. You tell them that whether the stars affect our destinies is not part of astronomy, but that it's important to learn for X reasons. And then you teach.

The choice here is not between smacking down a kid, or letting the kid decide what and how you teach. The choice here is between alienating a child and teaching a child. It's not easy, but it's not that hard.

53 Achilles Tang  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 7:14:45pm

re: #49 aagcobb

teachers should be free to teach without having to worry that some cultist will sue them for offending their bizarre beliefs.


Do you think that all the current TGOP Presidential candidates are "cultists"?

54 Gus  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 7:15:04pm

re: #45 albusteve

the student, and their posse...
we are raising a new gen that is totally narcissistic, just like their parents

Next thing you know the teacher will be charged with bullying.

55 Obdicut  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 7:15:28pm

re: #43 SanFranciscoZionist

Hilariously, I managed to get through all of my education without watching a teacher need to call a student's faith superstition, and we got taught science.

Even more hilariously, I've watched many, many science teachers over the course of the years manage this tightrope walk without breaking a sweat.

The court case wasn't about whether this was the best communication style or not. They didn't rule that it's awesome to tell religious students their faith is superstitious nonsense.

However, I really doubt the ability of a science teacher to actually get through to a creationist. But again, I don't actually understand how creationists remain creationists. It seems like hard work.

56 jamesfirecat  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 7:15:37pm

re: #17 Dark_Falcon

I don't consider "factually true" to be a defense against a charge of not being professional. It's never been such at any public-facing job I've ever had. Dealing with the public often requires passing over unpleasant silence. I'll agree that the case itself was weak, but I'm not sure the teacher should have had immunity.

That said, I'd probably end up supporting that immunity myself, on grounds that not doing so would expose schools to a small wave of SLAPP* lawsuits.

SLAAP: Strategic Lawsuit Against Public Participation

The day that we loose the ability to tell the truth for fear of being sued and LOSING is the day that I loose faith in America.

57 Obdicut  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 7:16:25pm

re: #52 SanFranciscoZionist

Your standards for teachers are so far away from what I experienced as a kid it makes me double-sad.

58 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 7:16:27pm

re: #53 Naso Tang

Do you think that all the current TGOP Presidential candidates are "cultists"?

No, they just lie their balls off and pretend to be, for the benefit of the idiotic rubes who will vote for them

59 Targetpractice  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 7:16:36pm

re: #41 Mr Pancakes

I think the teacher should say... I am teaching astronomy here not astrology and leave it at that. You must remember there are parents behind the student.

If your biggest concern is whether your statements will piss off a student's parents than whether that student is being taught critical thinking, then you're doing a disservice to that student.

60 Mr Pancakes  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 7:16:36pm

re: #44 Gus 802

Yes, of course in there is in this massively PC world. Wouldn't want to hurt anyone's feelings.

In a reverse universe world, it wouldn't a "feelings" issue with me if my kid was denounced for believing evolution in a public school creationism class.

61 Achilles Tang  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 7:16:36pm

re: #52 SanFranciscoZionist

The teacher, which is why you need to show some common sense.

Yes, we agree, and all this conversation is doing is presenting imaginary scenarios where there is a lack of everyday common sense; to what end?

62 aagcobb  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 7:17:18pm

re: #53 Naso Tang

Do you think that all the current TGOP Presidential candidates are "cultists"?

I think Bachmann and Santorum probably are. I suspect Perry may just by a cynical panderer, but of course I can't read what is actually in anyone's heart.

63 Varek Raith  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 7:18:50pm

Frankly, we need teachers doing this.
Why?
Because we now have a national political party hell bent on forcing their religion on to students.

64 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 7:19:16pm

re: #47 Naso Tang

I haven't researched the details of this case, but if a teacher happens to blurt out, quite correctly, that creationism is superstitious nonsense (I imagine in response to questioning), and that results in the student getting the parents to file a lawsuit... then tell me just who is pushing what over the edge?

I've made it clear that I don't think this was lawsuit material.

Now, if he simply 'blurted out' what he said out of exasperation, and God knows, I've been there, then that's one thing. If he said it deliberately, thinking it was a good teaching tactic, that's another. Either way, I think he should have found better words. If the parents or the student engineered this to get a lawsuit, then shame on them, and they just lost.

Hell, I was sandbagged with this crap in a history class...over goddamn GALILEO. I probably flailed quite a bit, but I lived through it.

I'm not saying there isn't a pool of sharks out there playing the 'let's get the science teacher game'. They're there. But that doesn't change my views about showing kids that you can be respectful without compromising on the truth.

65 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 7:19:32pm

re: #32 Charles

To expand on this point -- the reason why this teacher is being targeted by the creationist right is because he scares them. The larger agenda is to intimidate any teachers who speak the truth about creationism, with the threat of legal action and the accompanying huge bills.

They can't be allowed to succeed.

And that's why I had to agree with the decision in the end. I don't like the 9th Circuit, but I like intimidation by lawsuit even less (and it isn't even close as to how much less).

66 Achilles Tang  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 7:19:39pm

re: #62 aagcobb

I think Bachmann and Santorum probably are. I suspect Perry may just by a cynical panderer, but of course I can't read what is actually in anyone's heart.

One doesn't need to read hearts or minds to judge people. One needs only listen to what they say.

67 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 7:20:07pm

re: #51 jamesfirecat

I think you left out the part where you call them activist judges Dark.

I covered that for them in #1.

68 Obdicut  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 7:20:18pm

re: #63 Varek Raith

Meh. I think it gives the creationists an easy out, just to get offended and say that he's being insulting and not listen. In that, SFZ is right. There's no real communication there.

I'm not sure how much communication to creationists is possible, though, when they have such widespread support.

69 b_sharp  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 7:20:39pm

Next time a student brings up creationism as if it's an obvious truth, hand him/her a banana.

70 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 7:21:07pm

re: #56 jamesfirecat

The day that we loose the ability to tell the truth for fear of being sued and LOSING is the day that I loose faith in America.

James, I often fear we're already there. Please don't ask me to explain that tonight, I'm just saying how I feel based on what I read.

71 Varek Raith  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 7:21:27pm

re: #68 Obdicut

Meh. I think it gives the creationists an easy out, just to get offended and say that he's being insulting and not listen. In that, SFZ is right. There's no real communication there.

I'm not sure how much communication to creationists is possible, though, when they have such widespread support.

It's no longer about communicating with them. That's impossible.
It's now about completely marginalizing them.

72 b_sharp  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 7:21:28pm

re: #68 Obdicut

Meh. I think it gives the creationists an easy out, just to get offended and say that he's being insulting and not listen. In that, SFZ is right. There's no real communication there.

I'm not sure how much communication to creationists is possible, though, when they have such widespread support.

They're trained not to listen.

73 Gus  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 7:22:10pm

re: #68 Obdicut

Meh. I think it gives the creationists an easy out, just to get offended and say that he's being insulting and not listen. In that, SFZ is right. There's no real communication there.

I'm not sure how much communication to creationists is possible, though, when they have such widespread support.

What are we going to start having "creationist sensitivity training" from now on?

74 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 7:22:14pm

re: #55 Obdicut

The court case wasn't about whether this was the best communication style or not. They didn't rule that it's awesome to tell religious students their faith is superstitious nonsense.

However, I really doubt the ability of a science teacher to actually get through to a creationist. But again, I don't actually understand how creationists remain creationists. It seems like hard work.

1. I'll say it again. I agree with the Ninth's ruling.

2. Kids do change their minds, even creationists. Maybe not in your class, but later on. I've seen it happen.

75 Targetpractice  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 7:23:07pm

re: #71 Varek Raith

It's no longer about communicating with them. That's impossible.
It's now about completely marginalizing them.

Agreed. If a kid pipes up in class that he thinks creationism is just as "valid" as evolution, then he deserves a dunce cap, feelings be damned. A remedial course in critical thinking skills might not be out of the question.

76 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 7:23:42pm

re: #64 SanFranciscoZionist

I wonder if this was a scenario where the kid was being disruptive and starting a whole scene and monopolizing the class, and the teacher had just had enough

THAT is a thing I have seen a lot in high chool and college, it was a college class, high level writing class on religion and myth, where an older student (baptist woman in her 50's who really liked talking down to people, including the prof) just decided she was having none of the notion that the bible wasn't treated by the class as "truth" in an absolute sense, she just started this whole stunt and it was cringe-worthy

after a little bit of politeness, and let's-move-on, the instructor turned on asshole mode, much to the delight of everyone else in the class

77 jaunte  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 7:23:57pm

Interesting comment from one of the Circuit Court judges:

"I'd like to know, one, if there is any case in which a teacher has been found to violate the establishment clause in a situation like this ... and if not, what is the analogous situation that gave clear notice?" 9th U.S. Circuit Court Judge Mark Wolf said. "What case before 2007 put him on clear notice that what he did was impermissible under the First Amendment?"

78 b_sharp  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 7:24:16pm

re: #73 Gus 802

What are we going to start having "creationist sensitivity training" from now on?

Sorry, snake oil salesman and creationists get nothing but derision from me.

79 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 7:24:27pm

re: #69 b_sharp

Next time a student brings up creationism as if it's an obvious truth, hand him/her a banana.

That's just going to encourage the kid to keep bringing up creationism, because, hey, free banana.

(Teenagers will do anything for food.)

80 jamesfirecat  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 7:25:15pm

re: #79 SanFranciscoZionist

That's just going to encourage the kid to keep bringing up creationism, because, hey, free banana.

(Teenagers will do anything for food.)

Don't worry I recall being a teenager well enough to know that back then I didn't consider banana's food...

81 Varek Raith  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 7:26:25pm

I know I'm sounding rather harsh but I believe we've come to a point where we must fight this or be doomed to mediocrity on the world stage.

82 Gus  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 7:26:32pm

re: #78 b_sharp

Sorry, snake oil salesman and creationists get nothing but derision from me.

Yeah. For sure. These folks are like pod people. They'll send one after the other to entrap the science teachers. Pretty soon they'll intimidate the school system out of teaching evolution altogether. Which is another one of their goals. These superstitious Bronze Age thinkers would be happy to have neither creationism and evolution in the classroom.

83 Targetpractice  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 7:26:45pm

Perhaps the idea of bringing back that 50's mentality isn't totally bad. Back then, teachers didn't have to worry that telling a kid they were an idiot would get them sued for hurting the little darling's feelings. The parents might be cross and have a few words with the principal, but that was as far as it went.

84 b_sharp  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 7:27:05pm

re: #79 SanFranciscoZionist

That's just going to encourage the kid to keep bringing up creationism, because, hey, free banana.

(Teenagers will do anything for food.)

Did I forget to mention that a critical analysis of the creationist claim for bananas, courtesy of R. Comfort et al., goes along with the free food?

85 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 7:27:23pm

re: #75 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

Agreed. If a kid pipes up in class that he thinks creationism is just as "valid" as evolution, then he deserves a dunce cap, feelings be damned. A remedial course in critical thinking skills might not be out of the question.

I'd recommend just ignoring them. The chances are that you'll just engage their 'victim complex' rather than getting them to think. People these days prefer to imagine themselves victimized, rather than examining their beliefs. The folks gathered here at LGF are some of the exceptions.

86 b_sharp  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 7:27:39pm

re: #80 jamesfirecat

Don't worry I recall being a teenager well enough to know that back then I didn't consider banana's food...

What was it considered, a sex toy?

87 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 7:28:01pm

re: #76 WindUpBird

I wonder if this was a scenario where the kid was being disruptive and starting a whole scene and monopolizing the class, and the teacher had just had enough

THAT is a thing I have seen a lot in high chool and college, it was a college class, high level writing class on religion and myth, where an older student (baptist woman in her 50's who really liked talking down to people, including the prof) just decided she was having none of the notion that the bible wasn't treated by the class as "truth" in an absolute sense, she just started this whole stunt and it was cringe-worthy

after a little bit of politeness, and let's-move-on, the instructor turned on asshole mode, much to the delight of everyone else in the class

Lots of things are possible--and as I said earlier, I feel that dealing with adults is quite different.

Although I did once see a geology teacher start a college class with "In this class, I will present to you the most agreed-upon scientific understanding of the origins of the universe and our own solar system and planets. If you do not believe this information, for religious reasons, I promise not to assume that a correct answer on a test constitutes your belief, merely that it shows me you took notes and read the material. Let's go."

88 aagcobb  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 7:28:12pm

re: #66 Naso Tang

One doesn't need to read hearts or minds to judge people. One needs only listen to what they say.

The I'll have to say I haven't heard enough from Perry to know if he is a cultist or just a cynical panderer.

89 Varek Raith  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 7:28:26pm

re: #86 b_sharp

What was it considered, a sex toy?

Worst nightmare.

90 jamesfirecat  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 7:28:31pm

re: #85 Dark_Falcon

I'd recommend just ignoring them. The chances are that you'll just engage their 'victim complex' rather than getting them to think. People these days prefer to imagine themselves victimized, rather than examining their beliefs. The folks gathered here at LGF are some of the exceptions.

How has ignoring and refusing to call out the creationists for being pig ignorant on the subject been working out for your party Dark?

91 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 7:28:43pm

re: #87 SanFranciscoZionist

Lots of things are possible--and as I said earlier, I feel that dealing with adults is quite different.

Although I did once see a geology teacher start a college class with "In this class, I will present to you the most agreed-upon scientific understanding of the origins of the universe and our own solar system and planets. If you do not believe this information, for religious reasons, I promise not to assume that a correct answer on a test constitutes your belief, merely that it shows me you took notes and read the material. Let's go."

hahahah the "let's go" really makes it :D

92 Mr Pancakes  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 7:29:34pm

re: #86 b_sharp

What was it considered, a sex toy?

Dude ... no way....... too smooshie ...... cucumber.

93 jaunte  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 7:30:05pm

From the opinion by Judge Raymond Fisher:

Even statements exhibiting some hostility to religion do not violate the Establishment Clause if the government conduct at issue has a secular purpose, does not have as its principal or primary effect inhibiting religion and does not foster excessive government entanglement with religion. … More to the point, we are aware of no prior case holding that a teacher violated the Establishment Clause by appearing critical of religion during class lectures, nor any case with sufficiently similar facts to give a teacher “fair warning” that such conduct was unlawful.
94 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 7:31:50pm

re: #8 SanFranciscoZionist

I'm going to hit a middle ground: it sounds to me as though the Ninth's legal reasoning is sound, however, I think his behavior was unprofessional. Lawsuit level unprofessional? No. Inappropriate in a classroom? Yes.

When you are a teacher, you have a big bully pulpit. I've had the creationism conversation before, (and I'm not even a science teacher), and there are better and more education, professional, and caring ways to do it than what it sounds like he did.

Once you get to college teaching, go wild. The kid can then leave the classroom, or tell you you're going to hell without getting detention.

I have a different middle ground. My father was both a science/math teacher (high school level, LAUSD) and an ordained minster who had his own creationist beliefs. It's not a secret how politically rightwing he ended up going.

He could figure it out, that science class was for science and not creationy-/god made algorithms and microbes in his beautiful creation science, either. Charles is also correct in noting that this was an attempt to pervert the establishment clause into including whackjobbery.

So the rest of these Christian-supremacist parents with children in public schools have no excuse. Neither do the sniveling, bedwetter cons who cannot tolerate their views being challenged, or even ridiculed. So what someone ridiculed a schoolchild, oh stop the presses e_e.

No other people in America who believe in religious creation myths have this problem but Christian-supremacists. No.other.people.

95 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 7:33:44pm

re: #75 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

If a kid pipes up in class that he thinks creationism is just as "valid" as evolution, then he deserves a dunce cap, feelings be damned. A remedial course in critical thinking skills might not be out of the question.

Q
F
T

96 jamesfirecat  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 7:34:25pm

re: #94 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

No other people in America who believe in religious creation myths have this problem but Christian-supremacists. No.other.people.

Speak for yourself, my belief in the all father remains strong!

97 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 7:34:50pm

re: #85 Dark_Falcon

People these days prefer to imagine themselves victimized, rather than examining their beliefs.

Don't they, though.

98 Gus  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 7:36:48pm

"OK class. Next up in our science curriculum is evolution. Now, I understand that some of you because of your religion may not accept this scientifically accepted fact. If that's the case I respect your personal beliefs as long as they remain personal and that you do not disturb the class. That being the case if you do not perform as expected and pass the required quiz and final test I will have to give you a failing grade better known as a big fat red F."

99 jaunte  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 7:40:03pm

Ha! Mileage varies...

"This case was never about religion," Corbett wrote on the Register's message boards. "It was about a whiny little boy who admitted he didn't do his homework and (whose) helicopter parents intervened so often in school and on the water polo team that other students called him 'princess.' Neither Chad, his parents nor his lawyers, the so-called 'Advocates for Faith and Freedom,' ever made an attempt to even talk to me or attempt to resolve the issues prior to filing a lawsuit."
....
Chad Farnan, who graduated from Capistrano Valley High School in Mission Viejo last year, speaks at an October 2009 campaign fundraiser in Irvine for Shawn Black, a GOP candidate for the 70th Assembly District. Black's campaign characterized Farnan as one of Orange County's leading conservative youths.
[Link: www.ocregister.com...]
100 b_sharp  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 7:40:52pm

re: #97 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

Don't they, though.

The right has the victimization routine down pat. While they whine and whing about all the leftists playing the victim card, they're milking the card for all it's worth.

101 prairiefire  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 7:41:02pm

re: #99 jaunte

Water Polo!

102 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 7:42:14pm

re: #98 Gus 802

"OK class. Next up in our science curriculum is evolution. Now, I understand that some of you because of your religion may not accept this scientifically accepted fact. If that's the case I respect your personal beliefs as long as they remain personal and that you do not disturb the class. That being the case if you do not perform as expected and pass the required quiz and final test I will have to give you a failing grade better known as a big fat red F."

Teacher demands that student parrot his views on evolution!!1 Refuses to allow them to use their own beliefs on tests!!!11 HE DEMANDS ACCEPTANCE OF A GODLESS, ATHEISTIC VIEW OF THE UNIVERSE!!!111

/Weird Nut Daliy

103 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 7:42:38pm

re: #98 Gus 802

"OK class. Next up in our science curriculum is evolution. Now, I understand that some of you because of your religion may not accept this scientifically accepted fact. If that's the case I respect your personal beliefs as long as they remain personal and that you do not disturb the class. That being the case if you do not perform as expected and pass the required quiz and final test I will have to give you a failing grade better known as a big fat red F."

Seriously. Nip it in the bud before they even start with that stupid Poor Me/Narcissistically-Wounded Christian act.

Let them go to Sunday School and talk about their creation myths. That's what it's there for. And, nice thing about living in America, for them....not one person can ever stop them, either.

104 Gus  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 7:42:50pm

re: #99 jaunte

Ha! Mileage varies...

Kaboom! See. Basically these creeps ensnared the teacher and the school.

105 b_sharp  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 7:43:20pm

re: #102 Dark_Falcon

/Weird Nut Daliy

You got a little close to reality there son. You don't write for WND do you?

106 Targetpractice  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 7:43:26pm

re: #85 Dark_Falcon

I'd recommend just ignoring them. The chances are that you'll just engage their 'victim complex' rather than getting them to think. People these days prefer to imagine themselves victimized, rather than examining their beliefs. The folks gathered here at LGF are some of the exceptions.

I engage so that, even if I fail to get them to start thinking, I can make an example out of them. I will lay down the facts, I will lay down the evidence, and I will make the case for evolution. If, after that, they can only mindless drone on about how evolution is simply a "theory" and no less "valid" than creationism, then at least I've advanced the education of the others.

107 Gus  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 7:43:53pm

Helicopter parents! LOL

108 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 7:44:49pm

re: #99 jaunte

Ha! Mileage varies...

Mr. Corbett certainly speaks his mind. I've long stopped being that blunt. Mostly because I'm in sales, where bluntness is a hinderance and eliding over things an important job skill.

109 prairiefire  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 7:45:06pm

re: #107 Gus 802

Helicopter parents! LOL

My friend who is an orthodontist says they are a terror.

110 jaunte  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 7:45:51pm

re: #108 Dark_Falcon

I'm in a similar kind of job, but I support the rights of educators to speak freely, even rudely.

111 Gus  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 7:46:24pm

re: #109 prairiefire

My friend who is an orthodontist says they are a terror.

My brother was telling me about them. He has one kid in grade school now. Completely annoying.

112 freetoken  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 7:47:18pm

Aha! This is just one more example of why we must defund public schools - if tax money has to be spent to educate children then parents should get vouchers so little Jimmy can be told the truth and not be attacked for what he believes!!

☔

113 prairiefire  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 7:47:29pm

Oh my gosh, Palin was in KC last week! [Link: www.politico.com...]

114 b_sharp  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 7:47:45pm

Creationists aren't simply extremely devote Christians, they're conniving, manipulative authoritarians intent on imposing belief in their 6000 year old universe on the rest of us.

115 b_sharp  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 7:48:12pm

re: #109 prairiefire

My friend who is an orthodontist says they are a terror.

They'll cut you with their blades.

116 jaunte  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 7:48:17pm

re: #114 b_sharp

And this was a test case.

117 Gus  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 7:48:23pm

re: #112 freetoken

Aha! This is just one more example of why we must defund public schools - if tax money has to be spent to educate children then parents should get vouchers so little Jimmy can be told the truth and not be attacked for what he believes!!

☔

What was that last character you used?

118 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 7:48:26pm

re: #99 jaunte

Ha! Mileage varies...

""This case was never about religion," Corbett wrote on the Register's message boards. "It was about a whiny little boy who admitted he didn't do his homework and (whose) helicopter parents intervened so often in school and on the water polo team that other students called him 'princess.' Neither Chad, his parents nor his lawyers, the so-called 'Advocates for Faith and Freedom,' ever made an attempt to even talk to me or attempt to resolve the issues prior to filing a lawsuit.""

I knew it.

Wtf is with these entitlement issues Christians?

ROTFL!

Advocates for Faith and Freedom - southern California hayseeds

119 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 7:48:41pm

re: #105 b_sharp

You got a little close to reality there son. You don't write for WND do you?

No, but the style is easy to mimic. Simply take the worst possible interpretation of the "liberal action" and then convey it is a tone of imminent crisis. Always end making it seem like the "Real America" is about to be overrun.

120 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 7:48:52pm

re: #107 Gus 802

Helicopter parents! LOL

Oh, man, I've had a few of those...

121 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 7:49:46pm

re: #109 prairiefire

My friend who is an orthodontist says they are a terror.

I'm given to understand that the 'you are persecuting my kid for being from a conservative family' ones are called 'black helicopter parents'.

122 Targetpractice  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 7:50:16pm

re: #112 freetoken

Aha! This is just one more example of why we must defund public schools - if tax money has to be spent to educate children then parents should get vouchers so little Jimmy can be told the truth and not be attacked for what he believes!!

☔

We need vouchers so that we can get kids out of these Godless public schools and into right proper parochial schools! Get them away from that atheist propaganda like evolution and climate change and teach them how God created everything and won't destroy it all because he loves us!

123 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 7:50:41pm

re: #100 b_sharp

The right has the victimization routine down pat. While they whine and whing about all the leftists playing the victim card, they're milking the card for all it's worth.

The right does political correctness far better than any ivy league undergrad from 1991 ever did.

Bedwetting crybabies - ohh sniff sniffle, someone whose views I don't even respect made fun of my beliefs, boo hoo I'm gonna sue! /Schadenfreude

124 b_sharp  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 7:51:21pm

re: #112 freetoken

Aha! This is just one more example of why we must defund public schools - if tax money has to be spent to educate children then parents should get vouchers so little Jimmy can be told the truth and not be attacked for what he believes!!

☔

That umbrella isn't going to save you from the shit you're about to be buried in.

Defunded public schools = raging illiterate culture = Asian countries dominating science and world economy.

125 Varek Raith  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 7:51:29pm

re: #120 SanFranciscoZionist

Oh, man, I've had a few of those...

Taser.
Problem solved.
/

126 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 7:51:39pm

re: #120 SanFranciscoZionist

Oh, man, I've had a few of those...

A friend of mine does that crap. I cannot be around it. The kid is turning into a sociopath.

127 prairiefire  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 7:51:53pm

re: #121 SanFranciscoZionist

I'm given to understand that the 'you are persecuting my kid for being from a conservative family' ones are called 'black helicopter parents'.

Hell yeah!

128 jaunte  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 7:54:02pm

re: #118 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

It looks like they're worried about some sort of 'homosexual agenda.'

According to the bill, social science classes from K-12 grades must include instruction on the role and contributions of lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender Americans. In addition, the bill prohibits school activity or any education that would “reflect adversely” on people because of their sexual orientation.

If passed, this will be a major setback for families, especially since there is no opt-out provision provided by the bill. So, even if parents do not want their children exposed to this lifestyle and homosexual agenda, they have no recourse within the public school system.

[Link: www.faith-freedom.com...]

129 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 7:55:16pm

re: #118 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

I knew it.

Wtf is with these entitlement issues Christians?

ROTFL!

Advocates for Faith and Freedom - southern California hayseeds

Lots of parents act that way. They find any 'thwarting' or 'humiliation' of their child intolerable, and will not ever consider the idea the kid could be in the wrong. Their egos and sense of self-worth are linked to the child's perceived success, and if they can't stop the 'thwarting' they feel victimized.

Ultimately, that sort of what I'm going to call "entitlement parenting" is a middle-class variation on the self-centeredness Theodore Dalrymple has documented among the underclass. I both cases it a view that "only me and mine count."

130 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 7:55:59pm

re: #107 Gus 802

Helicopter parents! LOL

The only helicopter that ever parented me: Image: o_XQutfHy2KhFHje0.jpg

131 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 7:56:35pm

re: #128 jaunte

It looks like they're worried about some sort of 'homosexual agenda.'

Well they should be. I am entitled to my toaster, and dammit I can't get it without recruiting at least one bratty, shrieking child of bigots. e_e /

132 prairiefire  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 7:57:05pm

Oh no! A bi-plane crashed at the air show downtown today! The poor guy spiraled right down to the ground and crashed right in front of the crowd.[Link: www.kansascity.com...]

133 b_sharp  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 7:59:24pm

re: #128 jaunte

It looks like they're worried about some sort of 'homosexual agenda.'

They believe homosexuality is spread as an mindborne virus. They deny our reality and substitute their own.

134 b_sharp  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 8:00:24pm

re: #129 Dark_Falcon

Lots of parents act that way. They find any 'thwarting' or 'humiliation' of their child intolerable, and will not ever consider the idea the kid could be in the wrong. Their egos and sense of self-worth are linked to the child's perceived success, and if they can't stop the 'thwarting' they feel victimized.

Ultimately, that sort of what I'm going to call "entitlement parenting" is a middle-class variation on the self-centeredness Theodore Dalrymple has documented among the underclass. I both cases it a view that "only me and mine count."

Underclass?

Like peasant underclass?

135 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 8:00:36pm

re: #129 Dark_Falcon

Ultimately, that sort of what I'm going to call "entitlement parenting" is a middle-class variation on the self-centeredness Theodore Dalrymple has documented among the underclass. I both cases it a view that "only me and mine count."

Helicopter/entitlement/trophy/"what will people think if my brat does not get into the $12,000/year preschoo" parenting is an upper middle class anxiety. They are creating an entire generation of emotionally retarded, handheld, totally dysfunctional bedwetters, dependent on daddy's money for everything.

The underclass doesn't even love their children, get your stereotypes right. 9_9

136 jaunte  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 8:00:36pm

re: #132 prairiefire

That's sad. He was a very experienced pilot, too.

Bryan is still flying for a Major airline and has over 23,000 hours of flight time. You can find him in the Captain’s seat of a Delta 747-400 when not flying 'The Beast.' Bryan has been flying aerobatics for 17 years.[Link: www.aero-news.net...]
137 Gus  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 8:01:25pm

re: #121 SanFranciscoZionist

I'm given to understand that the 'you are persecuting my kid for being from a conservative family' ones are called 'black helicopter parents'.

That's a keeper!

138 Mr Pancakes  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 8:01:30pm

re: #132 prairiefire

Oh no! A bi-plane crashed at the air show downtown today! The poor guy spiraled right down to the ground and crashed right in front of the crowd.[Link: www.kansascity.com...]

Ticket sales will go up for tomorrow's show.

139 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 8:01:35pm

re: #134 b_sharp

Underclass?

Like peasant underclass?

More conservative-supremacist bullshit.

140 Killgore Trout  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 8:01:41pm

sadly absent from the Kill Bill series
Solace - Forever My Queen

Youtube Video

(NSFW)
Tarrantino dropped the ball.
141 Gus  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 8:02:29pm

re: #130 WindUpBird

The only helicopter that ever parented me: Image: o_XQutfHy2KhFHje0.jpg

If I got a helicopter it would sit under the tree until right before Christmas right before my mom would through a fit about something and break it into pieces!

//

142 Gus  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 8:03:33pm

re: #141 Gus 802

If I got a helicopter it would sit under the Christmas tree until right before Christmas right before my mom would through throw a fit about something and break it into pieces!

//

Yeesh. Nice grammar.

143 Achilles Tang  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 8:03:55pm

re: #88 aagcobb

The I'll have to say I haven't heard enough from Perry to know if he is a cultist or just a cynical panderer.

How does the difference matter to you?

144 b_sharp  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 8:03:58pm

re: #132 prairiefire

Oh no! A bi-plane crashed at the air show downtown today! The poor guy spiraled right down to the ground and crashed right in front of the crowd.[Link: www.kansascity.com...]

A jet went down at a UK airshow yesterday.

145 Gus  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 8:04:51pm

re: #132 prairiefire

Oh no! A bi-plane crashed at the air show downtown today! The poor guy spiraled right down to the ground and crashed right in front of the crowd.[Link: www.kansascity.com...]

Red Arrow crashed too. In the UK. Pilot died. And a Canadian plane crashed in the north country. Near Yellowknife? 12 dead.

146 lostlakehiker  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 8:05:08pm

re: #2 Dark_Falcon

I'm going to have to disagree here. I think that for a teacher to put down a student's beliefs like that was unprofessional and grounds for a reprimand at minimum. I also not sure this conclusion will be upheld. The 9th Circuit en masse would likely uphold it, but that doesn't say much. The 9th is the most liberal circuit in the country, and it's long been too liberal to be worthy of respect in my eyes.

Agreed that it's best to not use that exact language to a student. There are gentler ways to break it to the kid that there's no Santa Claus.

On the other hand, it's preposterous to make a federal case out of a situation in which a science teacher tells the blunt truth to a student, and tells it bluntly. Not everybody is a born diplomat. Surely not me, though I've steered clear of doing that in the classroom.

I've been threatened with lawsuit for calling bullshit bullshit. It came to nothing, for the simple reason that the other party didn't want the issue of whether or not it really was BS to come up in court, I reckon.

But students are under the teacher's authority. They're not yet up to the rough and tumble of the adult world, some of them, in some ways.

So, the court was right. The ninth circuit has a terrible track record at the SC, so objectively, it's bad at constitutional reasoning. Even so, this time, I think they got one right.

The teacher, while within his rights, didn't exactly say it right. That's grounds for hurt feelings. It's not grounds for a lawsuit.

147 Mr Pancakes  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 8:05:12pm

re: #142 Gus 802

Yeesh. Nice grammar.

If I corrected every post I made, I'd have doulble the postings I have.

148 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 8:05:44pm

re: #134 b_sharp

Underclass?

Like peasant underclass?

No, more like urban underclass. The commonality I see is a refusal to concede any point to "the other". An assumption in the people in question that to compromise is to be shamed and humiliated. So it must always be their way or they throw some sort of tantrum. The violence or illegality of said tantrum varies, but the emotions behind it remain the same.

149 Gus  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 8:05:48pm

re: #147 Mr Pancakes

If I corrected every post I made, I'd have doulble double the postings I have.

FTFY

//

150 Mr Pancakes  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 8:06:30pm

re: #149 Gus 802

FTFY

//

Is your irony meter broken? Dude.....

151 Gus  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 8:06:44pm

re: #132 prairiefire

Oh no! A bi-plane crashed at the air show downtown today! The poor guy spiraled right down to the ground and crashed right in front of the crowd.[Link: www.kansascity.com...]

Fucking sucks.

152 b_sharp  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 8:07:03pm

re: #140 Killgore Trout

sadly absent from the Kill Bill series
Solace - Forever My Queen

[Video]
(NSFW)
Tarrantino dropped the ball.

Very artistically done.

153 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 8:07:12pm

re: #146 lostlakehiker

Agreed that it's best to not use that exact language to a student. There are gentler ways to break it to the kid that there's no Santa Claus.

On the other hand, it's preposterous to make a federal case out of a situation in which a science teacher tells the blunt truth to a student, and tells it bluntly. Not everybody is a born diplomat. Surely not me, though I've steered clear of doing that in the classroom.

I've been threatened with lawsuit for calling bullshit bullshit. It came to nothing, for the simple reason that the other party didn't want the issue of whether or not it really was BS to come up in court, I reckon.

But students are under the teacher's authority. They're not yet up to the rough and tumble of the adult world, some of them, in some ways.

So, the court was right. The ninth circuit has a terrible track record at the SC, so objectively, it's bad at constitutional reasoning. Even so, this time, I think they got one right.

The teacher, while within his rights, didn't exactly say it right. That's grounds for hurt feelings. It's not grounds for a lawsuit.

Quite Concur. That was SFZ's view as well.

154 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 8:07:20pm

re: #129 Dark_Falcon

Lots of parents act that way.

They are incompetents, apparently so self-loathing with their identities based on appearances and what other people think of them, they can't even trust their own parenting skills.

Youtube Video
Youtube Video

/Schadenfreude

155 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 8:08:11pm

re: #148 Dark_Falcon

No, more like urban underclass

lmao

156 prairiefire  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 8:08:36pm

re: #138 Mr Pancakes

Ticket sales will go up for tomorrow's show.

we already had plans to watch from my husband's office window on the 20th something floor. We will still go. I don't think there has been an accident at the KC show before.

That's too bad about the UK pilot. Wasn't there an awful crash in Germany some years ago?

157 lostlakehiker  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 8:09:38pm

re: #134 b_sharp

Underclass?

Like peasant underclass?

In case you don't know what the word means, and the intent as to connotations, here's a primer.

The term underclass is a coinage which functions as a morally neutral equivalent for what was known in the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries as the "undeserving poor". The earliest significant exponent of the term was the American sociologist and anthropologist Oscar Lewis in 1961. The underclass, according to Lewis, has "a strong present-time orientation, with little ability to delay gratification and plan for the future" (p. xxvi). Many other terms have been used to "describe a section of society which is seen to exist within and yet at the base of the working class."[1]


Emphasis mine. Quoted from Wikipedia's definition of, and explanation of, the term, together with its history.The article goes on with further explanation and clarification.

158 Gus  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 8:09:45pm

re: #132 prairiefire

Oh no! A bi-plane crashed at the air show downtown today! The poor guy spiraled right down to the ground and crashed right in front of the crowd.[Link: www.kansascity.com...]

Bryan Jensen
Pilot of "The Beast"

159 b_sharp  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 8:10:09pm

re: #151 Gus 802

Fucking sucks.

???.

160 Mr Pancakes  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 8:10:23pm

re: #154 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

They are incompetents, apparently so self-loathing with their identities based on appearances and what other people think of them, they can't even trust their own parenting skills.

[Video]/Schadenfreude

Cool..... video posting time.......

This seems appropriate..... XTC's Helicopter.

Youtube Video
161 Gus  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 8:11:21pm

re: #159 b_sharp

???.

See #158. He died in that airshow crash Prairiefire mentioned.

162 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 8:11:26pm

re: #146 lostlakehiker

The teacher, while within his rights, didn't exactly say it right. That's grounds for hurt feelings. It's not grounds for a lawsuit.

Not so for today's litigious, bedwetter conservatives. The types who believe they must be shown in the best possible light at all times, or else they'll go and kill 80 liberal children.

163 b_sharp  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 8:12:04pm

re: #157 lostlakehiker

In case you don't know what the word means, and the intent as to connotations, here's a primer.


Emphasis mine. Quoted from Wikipedia's definition of, and explanation of, the term, together with its history.The article goes on with further explanation and clarification.

Sigh...

164 prairiefire  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 8:12:29pm

re: #158 Gus 802

Bryan Jensen
Pilot of "The Beast"

Man, sad, that plane was very cool, too. Folks will say he died "doing what he loved."

165 b_sharp  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 8:13:01pm

re: #161 Gus 802

See #158. He died in that airshow crash Prairiefire mentioned.

I know. My mind just read your response wrong.
It's stupid like that sometimes.

166 lostlakehiker  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 8:13:54pm

re: #46 Varek Raith

I believe Pi = exactly 3.
I would expect my math teacher to say that's nonsense.

Not me. I'd draw a hexagon inside a circle, and ask which was further around, the hexagon or the circle. I'd then draw a diagonal connecting opposite corners, right through the center.

I'd ask the student how far it was, in terms of edges of the hexagon, going straight across. They'd answer two. Case closed: from the student's own mouth, the perimeter to diameter ratio of the hexagon is 3, and the circle is further than that around.

167 Gus  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 8:14:05pm

re: #165 b_sharp

I know. My mind just read your response wrong.
It's stupid like that sometimes.

Yeah. It's difficult to read inflection sometimes.

168 prairiefire  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 8:14:43pm

I'll die from a collapsed ceiling at a thrift store and people will say "she died doing what she loved."

169 lostlakehiker  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 8:16:17pm

re: #162 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

Not so for today's litigious, bedwetter conservatives. The types who believe they must be shown in the best possible light at all times, or else they'll go and kill 80 liberal children.

It's not just conservatives who want it their way, to the letter. There's parents from all parts of the political spectrum who treat teachers that way. They're full of self importance and generalized resentment, and they think they've got a right to get their way. Every time, on every point.

170 Mr Pancakes  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 8:16:30pm

re: #156 prairiefire

we already had plans to watch from my husband's office window on the 20th something floor. We will still go. I don't think there has been an accident at the KC show before.

That's too bad about the UK pilot. Wasn't there an awful crash in Germany some years ago?

I used to work in Miramar (where Top Gun is) in San Diego...... it was so cool when I'd go on break outside and see jets flying upside-down just overhead, the Blue Angels doing their thing a day early (practicing) .......

It always sucks when the viewing public is subject to falling fuselages, debris, and fireballs.

171 b_sharp  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 8:16:52pm

re: #168 prairiefire

I'll die from a collapsed ceiling at a thrift store and people will say "she died doing what she loved."

Apparently dying happy is somehow better than dying unhappy - even though the end result is identical.

Lies for survivors.

172 Mr Pancakes  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 8:19:07pm

re: #168 prairiefire

I'll die from a collapsed ceiling at a thrift store and people will say "she died doing what she loved."

That's was funny... I must say.

173 prairiefire  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 8:19:55pm

re: #171 b_sharp

Oh, yeah! When my grandparents were killed, "At least they went together", "at least they went quickly" "At least no one had to make the decision to pull the plug." Shrug.

174 Gus  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 8:20:43pm

re: #171 b_sharp

Apparently dying happy is somehow better than dying unhappy - even though the end result is identical.

Lies for survivors.

Yeah. Pretty much right before you hit the ground you're likely thinking "oh shit I don't want to die right now. Not like this..." Then blackness. It all ends.

175 Gus  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 8:21:36pm

re: #164 prairiefire

Man, sad, that plane was very cool, too. Folks will say he died "doing what he loved."

Official site:

[Link: www.beastairshows.com...]

The show will go on:

[Link: www.kcairshow.com...]

176 Mr Pancakes  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 8:22:05pm

re: #171 b_sharp

Apparently dying happy is somehow better than dying unhappy - even though the end result is identical.

Lies for survivors.

What if you die in your sleep and you are having a nightmare? Does anyone know if you died peacefully?

177 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 8:23:15pm

re: #169 lostlakehiker

It's not just conservatives who want it their way, to the letter.

Never said there were. It surprises no one, however, that this entitlement-issues brat/Rick Perry Jr. went tattling to the government because someone laughed at his precious beliefs.

Hey, I heard the private sector is so much better, so let his bedwetter parents go beg a rich benefactor for the moolah to go to Teabag U. Day School Vouchers Prep, and stfu. I'm glad it was the 9th circuit of all of circuits that smacked the stupid b.s. down. /gloat

178 lostlakehiker  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 8:25:31pm

re: #124 b_sharp

That umbrella isn't going to save you from the shit you're about to be buried in.

Defunded public schools = raging illiterate culture = Asian countries dominating science and world economy.

Even European countries with very good schools (for example, Hungary) can't keep pace with what's being achieved in Shanghai. And all across the world, children of Chinese ancestry score high at math and science. We come in way toward the back of the pack even in the context of Europe, but East Asian results are just in a different league.

Public schools in the U.S. run through a lot of money. I doubt the Europeans spend as much per student as we do; I'm sure the Chinese don't. Something besides the funding level is going to have to improve if we're to narrow the gap.

179 Batman  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 8:25:49pm

Wait, I thought creationism wasn't religious? I thought it was just a scientific hypothesis. Should teachers be fired for calling flat-earthism nonsense?

180 b_sharp  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 8:26:51pm

re: #178 lostlakehiker

Even European countries with very good schools (for example, Hungary) can't keep pace with what's being achieved in Shanghai. And all across the world, children of Chinese ancestry score high at math and science. We come in way toward the back of the pack even in the context of Europe, but East Asian results are just in a different league.

Public schools in the U.S. run through a lot of money. I doubt the Europeans spend as much per student as we do; I'm sure the Chinese don't. Something besides the funding level is going to have to improve if we're to narrow the gap.

That may be true, but defunding goes in the opposite direction.

181 b_sharp  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 8:28:21pm

re: #179 nonsense

Wait, I thought creationism wasn't religious? I thought it was just a scientific hypothesis. Should teachers be fired for calling flat-earthism nonsense?

You have it backwards. Creationism is religion and so is evilution.

182 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 8:28:24pm

re: #169 lostlakehiker

It's not just conservatives who want it their way, to the letter. There's parents from all parts of the political spectrum who treat teachers that way. They're full of self importance and generalized resentment, and they think they've got a right to get their way. Every time, on every point.

Quoted for Truth.

183 Mr Pancakes  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 8:28:44pm

re: #179 nonsense

Wait, I thought creationism wasn't religious? I thought it was just a scientific hypothesis. Should teachers be fired for calling flat-earthism nonsense?

All righty then ...... pancakes for everyone!

184 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 8:28:53pm

re: #179 nonsense

Wait, I thought creationism wasn't religious? I thought it was just a scientific hypothesis. Should teachers be fired for calling flat-earthism nonsense?

Yes!

It runs the risk of possibly hurting a Bible believing child's delicate feelings, by suggesting that their beliefs aren't held in the highest esteem by those in authority!

And we know what happens whenever that occurs....now you would not want that, would you??

185 Targetpractice  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 8:29:18pm

Call me crazy, but I much rather prefer an honest teacher to a diplomatic one. In fact, I'd like to see them in more cases than just science.

Like, say, health/P.E. teachers telling students that it's asinine to expect hormonal teenagers to abstain from sex til marriage, so here's the means of ensuring safe sex.

186 Kragar  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 8:29:21pm

re: #179 nonsense

Wait, I thought creationism wasn't religious? I thought it was just a scientific hypothesis. Should teachers be fired for calling flat-earthism nonsense?

Don't you get it? Creationism is a perfectly valid scientific theory, so it deserves to be taught, but pointing out how absurd it is means you're attacking their religious beliefs.

187 Gus  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 8:29:59pm

re: #179 nonsense

Wait, I thought creationism wasn't religious? I thought it was just a scientific hypothesis. Should teachers be fired for calling flat-earthism nonsense?

Whatever's convenient for the perpetrator of said superstitious nonsense. If they're trying to sneak it into the curriculum? Then it's intelligent design.

188 jaunte  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 8:30:15pm

re: #186 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

"Transformers, more than meets the eye."

189 Kragar  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 8:30:46pm

re: #183 Mr Pancakes

All righty then ... pancakes for everyone!

Can I get a waffle?

190 Gus  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 8:30:48pm

re: #187 Gus 802

Whatever's convenient for the perpetrator of said superstitious nonsense. If they're trying to sneak it into the curriculum? Then it's intelligent design.

And if you want to claim victimhood? Then it's creationism.

191 prairiefire  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 8:30:57pm

re: #185 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

Call me crazy, but I much rather prefer an honest teacher to a diplomatic one. In fact, I'd like to see them in more cases than just science.

Like, say, health/P.E. teachers telling students that it's asinine to expect hormonal teenagers to abstain from sex til marriage, so here's the means of ensuring safe sex.

Yes, and list all of the ST diseases in incredible detail.

192 Mr Pancakes  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 8:31:10pm

re: #189 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Can I get a waffle?

Traitor

193 Kragar  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 8:31:27pm

re: #188 jaunte

"Transformers, more than meets the eye."

Dogma in disguise...

194 b_sharp  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 8:32:17pm

re: #187 Gus 802

Whatever's convenient for the perpetrator of said superstitious nonsense. If they're trying to sneak it into the curriculum? Then it's intelligent design.

Intelligent design could be a valid hypothesis, but not the way the Discovery Institute fakes presents it.

195 Gus  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 8:32:30pm

re: #192 Mr Pancakes

Traitor

How about an Eggo?

196 Kragar  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 8:32:36pm

re: #192 Mr Pancakes

Traitor

Youtube Video
197 lostlakehiker  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 8:32:49pm

re: #174 Gus 802

Yeah. Pretty much right before you hit the ground you're likely thinking "oh shit I don't want to die right now. Not like this..." Then blackness. It all ends.

I dunno. If there was time to think, part of me would be thinking, well, I made my decision and it didn't work out but I wouldn't have lived any other way.

There's not that much use living just to stay alive. Life is for doing things and making a difference and having fun, (depending on your mood, the order of these priorities can swap around.)

You can't do much of anything that matters without taking at least a few carefully calculated risks.

Anyhow, it doesn't all end. You, and I, and each of us, our own time ends, but if we care about others, well, they go on. Life is for other people too. For future generations, too.

198 b_sharp  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 8:33:02pm

re: #191 prairiefire

Yes, and list all of the ST diseases in incredible detail.

And the fact some are becoming immune to treatment.

199 Gus  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 8:33:08pm

Leggo my Eggo™

200 Kragar  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 8:33:58pm

re: #194 b_sharp

Intelligent design could be a valid hypothesis, but not the way the Discovery Institute fakes presents it.

God created the Universe, and he used Evolution to create life.

Or you can say he spit in a pile of dust, wiggled his fingers and made man out of it.

201 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 8:34:00pm

re: #178 lostlakehiker

Even European countries with very good schools (for example, Hungary) can't keep pace with what's being achieved in Shanghai. And all across the world, children of Chinese ancestry score high at math and science. We come in way toward the back of the pack even in the context of Europe, but East Asian results are just in a different league.

Public schools in the U.S. run through a lot of money. I doubt the Europeans spend as much per student as we do; I'm sure the Chinese don't. Something besides the funding level is going to have to improve if we're to narrow the gap.

True. But that's not a discussion I'm willing to have. It is a discussion of cultural traits (at least in part), and such a discussion that can lead to accusations of racism way too easily.

202 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 8:36:24pm

re: #179 nonsense

Wait, I thought creationism wasn't religious? I thought it was just a scientific hypothesis. Should teachers be fired for calling flat-earthism nonsense?

Lawsuits like this are about power, not truth.

203 Mr Pancakes  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 8:36:28pm

re: #195 Gus 802

How about an Eggo?

You are pulling my eggo....... frozen, pop in a toaster mass produced crap? Ranks right down there with Pop Tarts.

(I must admit Eggos have saved my ass when my daughter was running late for school)

204 lostlakehiker  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 8:37:06pm

re: #179 nonsense

Wait, I thought creationism wasn't religious? I thought it was just a scientific hypothesis. Should teachers be fired for calling flat-earthism nonsense?

Of course not. You don't fire a teacher for one blunt comment, or even several. On the other hand, there's better ways to demonstrate that the earth is round.

A point-source lamp and a ball will illustrate that the shadow of a sphere upon the wall is a circle, (if the wall is directly behind the sphere.) Likewise, the shadow of a ball upon a more distant ball.

A video of a lunar eclipse will demonstrate that the shadow of the earth upon the moon is curved.

What do I gotta do, draw ya a picture? Well, yes. Teachers whose first recourse when challenged is to say Thou Fool aren't going to get through as well as those who are more patient and let the kid see for themselves how much more sense the other perspective makes.

205 Kragar  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 8:37:14pm

I'll say this for Creationists. For supposed believers in an all-knowing omnipotent deity, they sure seem hell bent on limiting his abilities to what they can understand.

206 Mr Pancakes  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 8:38:09pm

re: #196 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

[Video]

I loved the whole Austin Powers thing....... Mike Meyers lost me with Love Guru.

207 Kragar  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 8:39:09pm

re: #206 Mr Pancakes

I loved the whole Austin Powers thing... Mike Meyers lost me with Love Guru.

Eh, I blame the studios for filming crap.

208 Gus  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 8:40:14pm

re: #197 lostlakehiker

I dunno. If there was time to think, part of me would be thinking, well, I made my decision and it didn't work out but I wouldn't have lived any other way.

There's not that much use living just to stay alive. Life is for doing things and making a difference and having fun, (depending on your mood, the order of these priorities can swap around.)

You can't do much of anything that matters without taking at least a few carefully calculated risks.

Anyhow, it doesn't all end. You, and I, and each of us, our own time ends, but if we care about others, well, they go on. Life is for other people too. For future generations, too.

I try not to go too deep into the stuff here because of mixed company.

209 Mr Pancakes  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 8:40:34pm

re: #199 Gus 802

Leggo my Eggo™

Gus.... redo that in repetitive tiny font...... I want to see if the little "TM" shows up at all at the end.

210 Gus  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 8:42:07pm

re: #209 Mr Pancakes

Gus... redo that in repetitive tiny font... I want to see if the little "TM" shows up at all at the end.

Like this?

Eggo™™™™™™™™™™™™™™™™™™™

211 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 8:42:32pm

Youtube is giving me a Rainguard gutter ad for watching Patti Griffin's "Rain."

Um.

212 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 8:42:41pm

re: #210 Gus 802

Show off.

213 Gus  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 8:43:45pm

re: #212 EmmmieG

Show off.

Maybe he meant this?

Eggo™Eggo™Eggo™Eggo™Eggo™Eggo™Eggo™Eggo™Eggo™Eggo™Eggo™Eggo™Eggo™Eggo™Eggo™Eggo™Eggo™Eggo™Eggo™Eggo™Eggo™Eggo™Eggo™

214 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 8:44:31pm

re: #213 Gus 802

Maybe he meant this?

Eggo™Eggo™Eggo™Eggo™Eggo™Eggo™Eggo™Eggo™Eggo™Eggo™Eggo™Eggo™Eggo™Eggo™Eggo™Eggo™Eggo™Eggo™Eggo™Eggo™Eggo™Eggo™Eggo™

Now you are just being insufferable.

215 b_sharp  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 8:44:39pm

re: #213 Gus 802

Maybe he meant this?

Eggo™Eggo™Eggo™Eggo™Eggo™Eggo™Eggo™Eggo™Eggo™Eggo™Eggo™Eggo™Eggo™Eggo™Eggo™Eggo™Eggo™Eggo™Eggo™Eggo™Eggo™Eggo™Eggo™

What are you trying to say?

216 Mr Pancakes  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 8:44:50pm

re: #210 Gus 802

Like this?

Eggo™™™™™™™™™™™™™™™™™™™

That last one..... is it really TM or is it just a dot?

217 prairiefire  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 8:45:44pm

re: #213 Gus 802

Maybe he meant this?

Eggo™Eggo™Eggo™Eggo™Eggo™Eggo™Eggo™Eggo™Eggo™Eggo™Eggo™Eggo™Eggo™Eggo™Eggo™Eggo™Eggo™Eggo™Eggo™Eggo™Eggo™Eggo™Eggo™

Cool

218 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 8:46:07pm

I'm tempted to watch "Making Pies," to see what kind of ads I get.

219 Gus  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 8:46:11pm

re: #216 Mr Pancakes

That last one... is it really TM or is it just a dot?

Should be a TM. Limited by the resolution of your monitor of course. So technically it becomes a dot (pixel) after a certain point.

220 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 8:47:06pm

On a downer note, I was at an Air Show. Not that one.

The Oregon Air Show went on without incident.

221 Kragar  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 8:47:19pm

re: #219 Gus 802

Should be a TM. Limited by the resolution of your monitor of course. So technically it becomes a dot (pixel) after a certain point.

BIG PIXEL IS KEEPING US DOWN!

222 Mr Pancakes  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 8:47:23pm

re: #219 Gus 802

Should be a TM. Limited by the resolution of your monitor of course. So technically it becomes a dot (pixel) after a certain point.

I know....... I was making a silly.

223 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 8:49:14pm

re: #201 Dark_Falcon

True. But that's not a discussion I'm willing to have.

Why not?

It is a discussion of cultural traits (at least in part), and such a discussion that can lead to accusations of racism way too easily.

If you know what you're talking about re: whatever these "cultures" are, you do not ever have to live in fear of stating what you think. So don't blame the dark spectre of potential criticism for your own runs-away behavior. That's your own flimsy beliefs at work.

224 Gus  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 8:49:17pm

re: #220 EmmmieG

On a downer note, I was at an Air Show. Not that one.

The Oregon Air Show went on without incident.

You don't like air shows?

225 b_sharp  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 8:49:39pm

re: #222 Mr Pancakes

I know... I was making a silly.

He never plays right. Maybe we should steal his ball.

226 Mr Pancakes  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 8:50:05pm

re: #224 Gus 802

You don't like air shows?

Hey.... don't we all want to see the trapeze guy fall?

227 Gus  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 8:50:24pm

re: #225 b_sharp

He never plays right. Maybe we should steal his ball.

Maybe if you guys would share the bong!

//

228 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 8:50:32pm

re: #224 Gus 802

You don't like air shows?

I'm bummed about the one with the crash today. That sucks.

229 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 8:50:41pm

re: #202 Dark_Falcon

Lawsuits like this are about power, not truth.

Lawsuits like that are brought as a show of power.

230 b_sharp  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 8:50:44pm

re: #201 Dark_Falcon

True. But that's not a discussion I'm willing to have. It is a discussion of cultural traits (at least in part), and such a discussion that can lead to accusations of racism way too easily.

Cultural traits aren't the same as genetic traits.

231 b_sharp  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 8:52:40pm

re: #227 Gus 802

Maybe if you guys would share the bong!

//

The one beside you isn't enough?

Besides, I got this one from my mother.

232 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 8:52:43pm

re: #223 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

Why not?

If you know what you're talking about re: whatever these "cultures" are, you do not ever have to live in fear of stating what you think. So don't blame the dark spectre of potential criticism for your own runs-away behavior. That's your own flimsy beliefs at work.

That bolded part is just not true anymore, if it ever was true. It's easy enough to say the wrong thing and get accused of racism. It's a charge that has been weaponized often enough that one must beware of it being deployed in a malicious context even if one has no racist intent whatsoever.

233 Mr Pancakes  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 8:53:05pm

re: #231 b_sharp

The one beside you isn't enough?

Besides, I got this one from my mother.

Maybe we should steal his bong.

234 b_sharp  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 8:53:47pm

re: #233 Mr Pancakes

Maybe we should steal his bong.

Yah. It's bigger than the one I have.

235 Gus  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 8:54:52pm

re: #228 EmmmieG

I'm bummed about the one with the crash today. That sucks.

Yeah, it's a bummer. The show will go on to. Not sure if I'd feel comfortable going to an airshow after that incident. Would be a little depressing.

236 b_sharp  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 8:55:27pm

Goodnight dudes, dudettes and visitors from the dark side, time to rest my aching back.

237 Gus  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 8:55:45pm

re: #233 Mr Pancakes

Maybe we should steal his bong.

re: #234 b_sharp

Yah. It's bigger than the one I have.

Hippies!

//

238 Mr Pancakes  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 8:58:53pm

re: #236 b_sharp

Goodnight dudes, dudettes and visitors from the dark side, time to rest my aching back.

Goodnight my Canadian fiend (sic).

239 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 8:59:54pm

re: #81 Varek Raith

I know I'm sounding rather harsh but I believe we've come to a point where we must fight this or be doomed to mediocrity on the world stage.

Nothing harsh about it. If that's harsh, we could use a lot more harsh, because you're right.

240 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 9:01:40pm

re: #230 b_sharp

Cultural traits aren't the same as genetic traits.

You're right, but that doesn't always matter. Some people may confuse the two and accuse you in error. There are also some people who make deliberately make a false allegation in order to get something they want. But just the accusation alone can be damaging, so I don't go near issues where it can arise. The only except is face-to-face discussions in private, where I'm confident that i can trust the people around me.

241 Talking Point Detective  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 9:03:17pm

Haven't been in these parts for a while, but I figured you folks might enjoy this (too much good stuff to cut any of it:

--snip--

During a press availability following a speech in Mount Pleasant, South Carolina, Friday, Michele Bachmann was asked about a narrative that hasn’t gone away during the seven weeks she has been a presidential candidate: verbal gaffes.

“When you speak six times a day, slip-ups can occur,” Bachmann said.
The comment is the most frank Bachmann has been to date about a series of statements, dating prior to her announcement for president, that have caught notice by the public and in some cases have provoked clarifications from the candidate or her staff.

Appearing as a guest Thursday on a conservative talk radio show, Bachmann made reference to the cold war during a discussion of America’s modern-day position in the world. “There’s a fear that the United States is in an unstoppable decline,” Bachmann said. “They see the rise of China, the rise of India, the rise of the Soviet Union and our loss militarily going forward.”

Bachmann, of course, meant Russia – the Soviet Union dissolved in 1991.

Earlier this week, at an event in Greenville, South Carolina, Bachmann asked the audience to celebrate Elvis Presley’s birthday. Her tour bus had just pulled into the event, timed to the opening bars of the campaign theme, the Elvis song “Promise Land.”

“You can’t do better than Elvis Presley,” Bachmann said, “and we thought we’d celebrate his birthday as we get started celebrating the ‘Take Our Country Back’ tour.” It was, however, the anniversary of Elvis’s death – a fact that Bachmann corrected during a media availability following the event. (Her campaign tells NBC News that Bachmann simply misspoke; that she is a lifelong fan of Elvis, and chose the campaign theme song herself.)

Despite the correction, the gaffes have renewed attention on earlier misstatements at a moment – one week after Bachmann’s win at the Ames, Iowa Straw Poll – when the campaign had been poised to move beyond them. Prior to running for president, Bachmann made news in March during a visit to a Manchester, N.H., school, where she told a group of students, “You’re the state where the shot was heard around the world in Lexington and Concord.’’

Bachmann appeared to be referring to the first shots of the Revolutionary War, which occurred in Massachusetts.

Friday, Bachmann corrected her statement on global affairs, saying, “We all know that it’s Russia, it’s not the Soviet Union.”
advertisement

During her press availability Bachmann also referred to her mention this week of Enron, the Texas-based energy company that went bankrupt in 2001 amid a fraud scandal. Speaking about the federal debt at an event in Columbia, SC, Thursday, Bachmann said: “ever heard of Enron? You get shut down when you don’t pay your bills.”
The comparison – between the federal government on one hand, and, on the other hand, a company whose executives had been sent to prison – was first reported by NBC News. During her media availability Friday, Bachmann said of Enron: “I didn’t say that it was debt that took them down, I made a statement that this was a company that had accounting problems.”

Bachmann also attributed interest in her misstatements to the news media, arguing that voters are looking for solutions to real-world problems.

"The main thing people focus on in every single venue that I've been to is the economy and job creation," she said.

--snip--

[Link: firstread.msnbc.msn.com...]

242 Gus  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 9:03:48pm

It's a bit hard to understand. This whole notion of needing to go to a public school to learn a Biblical standard of creationism. It's not like society as whole even fits a Biblical standard of any sort. Even what one is exposed to in class or from grade school through high school. And even if you look outside of a Biblical standard you're not going to learn everything you desire in a public school. Some topics are barely touched upon. It's meant for a general all around secular education that meets all people within the community regardless of religion. Evolution, when you come down to it, also doesn't have to be interpreted as a rejection of a God if you so desire. That's what's so unique about evolution or science. You can be very religious or not religious at all in order to accept and appreciate science.

243 Gus  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 9:05:36pm

Make-a-de-sense?

244 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 9:08:37pm

re: #240 Dark_Falcon

You're right, but that doesn't always matter. Some people may confuse the two and accuse you in error. There are also some people who make deliberately make a false allegation in order to get something they want. But just the accusation alone can be damaging, so I don't go near issues where it can arise. The only except is face-to-face discussions in private, where I'm confident that i can trust the people around me.

Paranoia big destroy'ya.

Why do you expect to be coddled in these topics you start all on your own?

re: #232 Dark_Falcon

That bolded part is just not true anymore, if it ever was true. It's easy enough to say the wrong thing and get accused of racism. It's a charge that has been weaponized often enough that one must beware of it being deployed in a malicious context even if one has no racist intent whatsoever.

Sticks and stones.

Don't broach topics with baldfaced assertions on matters you know nothing about, then run away when challenged. No one is too good to have their views challenged, or entitled to having them babied and coddled...that's the reason entitlement-issues conservatives LOATHE the 9th circuit and decisions like this one, in the first place. It reminds them of that cultural fact.

245 jaunte  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 9:08:44pm

re: #242 Gus 802

Strict Creationists seem to be opposed to any science that doesn't confirm their beliefs. I've been reading a bit of 'Flood Geology' over at Answers in Genesis, checking out the new 'theory' of catastrophic plate tectonics that they're pushing.

The Bible does not directly mention either continental drift or plate tectonics. However, if the continents were once joined together, as suggested by Genesis 1:9–10, and are now apart, then the only possibility is continental division and “sprint” during the Flood.
[Link: webcache.googleusercontent.com...]


It's the only possibility!

246 Four More Tears  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 9:11:31pm

re: #245 jaunte

There can be no other explanation!

247 freetoken  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 9:12:03pm

re: #245 jaunte

They are trying (real hard) to come up with their own, iron clad form of Concordism (aka Concordist Theory.)

248 jaunte  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 9:13:54pm

re: #247 freetoken

The rapidly sinking ocean-floor slabs forcibly displace the softer mantle rock into which they are subducted, which causes large-scale convectional flow throughout the entire mantle. The hot mantle rock displaced by these subducting slabs wells up elsewhere to complete the flow cycle, and in particular rises into the seafloor rift zones to form new ocean floor. Reaching the surface of the ocean floor, this hot mantle material vaporizes huge volumes of ocean water with which it comes into contact to produce a linear curtain of supersonic steam jets along the entire 43,500 miles (70,000 km) of the seafloor rift zones stretching around the globe (perhaps the “fountains of the great deep” of Genesis 7:11 and Genesis 8:2). These supersonic steam jets capture large amounts of liquid water as they “shoot” up through the ocean above the seafloor where they form.

They're missing the thought that in their scenario, everything on the Ark would have been scalded to death by the steam.

249 Gus  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 9:14:11pm

re: #245 jaunte

Strict Creationists seem to be opposed to any science that doesn't confirm their beliefs. I've been reading a bit of 'Flood Geology' over at Answers in Genesis, checking out the new 'theory' of catastrophic plate tectonics that they're pushing.

It's the only possibility!

That's pretty gosh darn needy. Creationism then has possibly become a sect unto itself. It certainly has according to some people. But why do they have to be so needy? If I had to grow up with all of my atheistic need confirmed in this largely Christian society -- which it still is -- I'd be one lost soul. I would get pissed off at every corner seeing my own beliefs challenged by these Christians. But I'm not. I learned how to create my own world with them and despite them at the same time. So on the reverse side of things I would be lost if I took that same attitude and rejected everyone even remotely associated with Christiandom.

250 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 9:14:50pm

re: #242 Gus 802

It's a bit hard to understand. This whole notion of needing to go to a public school to learn a Biblical standard of creationism

Or, demanding to have your preferred theology mirrored in what's supposed the curriculum for every taxpayer's kid, then parroted to all kids as if it's hard fact.

Supremacist mentality, conservative Christian hubris. They are the only ones with this issue. I see no Sikhs, Muslims, Jews, Zoroastrians, Jains, Buddhists, Hindus, Hare Krishnas, mainline Protestants, or Confucianists demanding their creation stories be taught in science class.

Without it, they believe they are being oppressed by the government. So, they run and tattle to the government. Lol conservative self-loathing knows no bounds.

251 Gus  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 9:14:54pm

It's sort of like a Vegan looking for the perfect roommate.

//

252 freetoken  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 9:15:52pm

Perhaps a bit more explanation is due:

Old Earth creationists tend to want to keep some science to go along with the idea of creationism, so over time they have developed ways of reinterpreting the Bible to make it seem like it doesn't conflict with science.

Often despised by the YECs, now we see that YECs are trying to out do the OECs, but instead of playing fast and loose with the old texts of the Near East they play fast and loose with concepts from science.

253 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 9:18:15pm

re: #248 jaunte

They're missing the thought that in their scenario, everything on the Ark would have been scalded to death by the steam.

That would have made an incredible scene in one of these end-of-the world movies.

The steam of jet shooting up, I mean.

254 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 9:18:24pm

re: #253 EmmmieG

Um, you know what I meant.

255 freetoken  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 9:18:58pm

re: #248 jaunte

The first sentence of that quoted section is pretty much lifted from standard contemporary geophysics - that is, the reason continental plates move is because the older, and colder (thus denser) parts of the crust are sinking, and are pulling along the lighter sections, thus causing the horizontal movement on the surface. This is opposed to the rising ridges pushing the plates apart.

So we see how the YECs take a legitimate concept... and then slaughter it.

256 A Man for all Seasons  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 9:19:00pm

A few random thoughts on a Saturday night..
The nice thing about Oklahoma is the Indian Casinos..They are everywhere..Why is that Good? I don't gamble...
The Music...It's just awesome how many bands and acts come to town...
So today Winston and I were driving to Petsmart when on the radio the DJ said Train is coming.. I was yelling in the car..I'm going to go see Train! Winston thinks I'm insane and curled up in his seat looking at me confused. I'm going to go see Train! Anybody else wanna go cause..I'm calling all Angels
Colts Nation is in a huge panic attack.. Peyton Manning may not start the 1st game of the NFL season..We are completely spoiled as fans..There probably is no other Team in the NFL as spoiled about having a great QB start every game..Hell even Tom Brady missed almost a whole year.. Peyton has never missed a game..He is a stud...
I say we hire Brett Farve for one game and say effen it...We will be the talk of the town..

257 Gus  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 9:21:47pm

re: #250 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

Or, demanding to have your preferred theology mirrored in what's supposed the curriculum for every taxpayer's kid, then parroted to all kids as if it's hard fact.

Supremacist mentality, conservative Christian hubris. They are the only ones with this issue. I see no Sikhs, Muslims, Jews, Zoroastrians, Jains, Buddhists, Hindus, Hare Krishnas, mainline Protestants, or Confucianists demanding their creation stories be taught in science class.

Without it, they believe they are being oppressed by the government. So, they run and tattle to the government. Lol conservative self-loathing knows no bounds.

So it's become a vehicle for an overall political movement. It's not necessarily about creationism (i.e. Genesis, etc.) but about an attempt to regain power and control. It's about ideology and politics. Creationism is just an excuse; a means to an end of a larger goal.

258 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 9:29:14pm

re: #243 Gus 802

Make-a-de-sense?

The actions of the parents in this case only make sense from the standpoint of someone who can't stand to not have their way. This lawsuit can ultimately be summed up with one video:

Youtube Video
259 jaunte  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 9:29:24pm

#stevesilberman

Frightening:
7 ways Rick Perry wants to change the Constitution - #GOP yhoo.it/pjO39b
260 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 9:31:38pm

re: #169 lostlakehiker

It's not just conservatives who want it their way, to the letter. There's parents from all parts of the political spectrum who treat teachers that way. They're full of self importance and generalized resentment, and they think they've got a right to get their way. Every time, on every point.

Sadly, truly, yeah, really.

261 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 9:32:49pm

re: #257 Gus 802

So it's become a vehicle for an overall political movement. It's not necessarily about creationism (i.e. Genesis, etc.) but about an attempt to regain power and control. It's about ideology and politics. Creationism is just an excuse; a means to an end of a larger goal.


That, it is.

The thing that started all of it was the removal of teacher-led prayer from school. Before Roe v Wade came along and gave them something else to froth at the mouth about, "they are taking prayyyyyyyyrrrrr out of the skooooooolzzzz!!!" was the major rallying cry.

When any cultural/social conservative bedwetter lists their complaints about everything they HATE about America, they will tie it back to prayer in schools.

That's because they will get a knuckle sandwich if they state what really got under their skin re: public schools, which was Brown vs Board of Education -- although outright bigots like Eagle Forum were more explicit. Prayer in schools, that was something that could appeal across racial lines and was thus more culturally neutral.

Screw them. Activist courts, in your faces bigots! lol

262 laZardo  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 9:34:35pm

re: #261 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

The religious are afraid that they might be educated out of existence. God knows we can't have that! q;

263 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 9:35:07pm

re: #260 SanFranciscoZionist

Sadly, truly, yeah, really.

Full Disclosure: I'm going to the school tomorrow. As near as I can tell, and I want confirmation of this from the school, for budget reasons they've cancelled all 3rd and 4th year language classes.

The Princess was due to start French 3.

264 Mr Pancakes  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 9:35:21pm

re: #256 HoosierHoops

A few random thoughts on a Saturday night..
The nice thing about Oklahoma is the Indian Casinos..They are everywhere..Why is that Good? I don't gamble...
The Music...It's just awesome how many bands and acts come to town...
So today Winston and I were driving to Petsmart when on the radio the DJ said Train is coming.. I was yelling in the car..I'm going to go see Train! Winston thinks I'm insane and curled up in his seat looking at me confused. I'm going to go see Train! Anybody else wanna go cause..I'm calling all Angels
Colts Nation is in a huge panic attack.. Peyton Manning may not start the 1st game of the NFL season..We are completely spoiled as fans..There probably is no other Team in the NFL as spoiled about having a great QB start every game..Hell even Tom Brady missed almost a whole year.. Peyton has never missed a game..He is a stud...
I say we hire Brett Farve for one game and say effen it...We will be the talk of the town..

I don't think any lo-cal has more Indian Casinos than San Diego Co .... so we have a wide variety of underachieving or past their prime acts at our beck and call. Which is great! Recently saw Tull and was invited to see Human League with Men Without Hats on Sept 1st. The Go-Gos with Berlin played the other night.

Why don't you have confidence in your second string QB? As a Charger fan Billy Volek does pretty good...... he beat the Colts once in a playoff game.

265 freetoken  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 9:36:27pm

re: #259 jaunte

Yeah, I saw that earlier when doing a google search on "creationism" news from today.

Amazingly, or maybe not amazingly, also from today is a rather lame attempt by NRO to move the spotlight from Perry onto his critics:

Rick Perry Pushes Their Buttons

The broader question, however, is: Why would anybody ask a politician about his views on a scientific question? Nobody ever asks what Sarah Palin thinks about dark matter, or what John Boehner thinks about quantum entanglement. (For that matter, I’ve never heard Keith Ellison pressed for his views on evolution.) There are lots of good reasons not to wonder what Rick Perry thinks about scientific questions, foremost amongst them that there are probably fewer than 10,000 people in the United States whose views on disputed questions regarding evolution are worth consulting, and they are not politicians; they are scientists. In reality, of course, the progressive types who want to know politicians’ views on evolution are not asking a scientific question; they are asking a religious and political question, demanding a profession of faith in a particular materialist-secularist worldview.

Take the question of global warming: Jon Huntsman was quick to declare his faith in the scientific consensus on global warming, and Rick Perry has been openly skeptical of it. Again keeping in mind that nobody really ought to care what either Huntsman or Perry thinks about the relevant science, both are making an error, and a grave one, in conceding that the question at hand is scientific at all. It is not; it is political. [...]

Yeah right, it's all those " progressive types " who are doing this to the poor candidates... certainly the Republican base don't care now, do they?

266 ProGunLiberal  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 9:36:45pm

re: #262 laZardo

If their faith is that weak, then they had issues.

267 Atlas Fails  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 9:36:57pm

Outrageous outrage at FoxNation!

Wonder why the comments are all hidden?

268 Gus  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 9:37:57pm

re: #261 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

That, it is.

The thing that started all of it was the removal of teacher-led prayer from school. Before Roe v Wade came along and gave them something else to froth at the mouth about, "they are taking prayyyrrr out of the skooolzzz!!!" was the major rallying cry.

When any cultural/social conservative bedwetter lists their complaints about everything they HATE about America, they will tie it back to prayer in schools.

That's because they will get a knuckle sandwich if they state what really got under their skin re: public schools, which was Brown vs Board of Education -- although outright bigots like Eagle Forum were more explicit. Prayer in schools, that was something that could appeal across racial lines and was thus more culturally neutral.

Screw them. Activist courts, in your faces bigots! lol

Yep. Like Lee Atwater's states rights comments. The Southern Strategy again. Prayer in schools becomes a debate about state rights again. Something they're always clamoring for. The final goal being they want states to reserve the right to become bigots outside of the control of the Federal government and ironically the Constitution and the Bill of Rights. The end result would be an even greater Balkanization of this country.

269 ProGunLiberal  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 9:38:11pm

Oh, the name for the Rebel operation to liberate Tripoli?

Operation Mermaid Dawn.

This is a bit befuddling.

270 HappyWarrior  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 9:40:20pm

The guy probably got fed up with ignorant people who told him that the Bible said evolution is satanism and crap like that. Yeah he probably acted like a little bit of a jerk but the evolution denial is maddening.

271 Gus  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 9:40:44pm

re: #265 freetoken

Yeah, I saw that earlier when doing a google search on "creationism" news from today.

Amazingly, or maybe not amazingly, also from today is a rather lame attempt by NRO to move the spotlight from Perry onto his critics:

Rick Perry Pushes Their Buttons

Yeah right, it's all those " progressive types " who are doing this to the poor candidates... certainly the Republican base don't care now, do they?

The all new musclehead NRO. It's like Eric Odem took over.

272 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 9:41:12pm

re: #262 laZardo

The religious are afraid that they might be educated out of existence. God knows we can't have that! q;

Well, the con Christian ones are, anyway. Other religions in America don't have this issue.

273 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 9:41:55pm

re: #269 ProLifeLiberal

Oh, the name for the Rebel operation to liberate Tripoli?

Operation Mermaid Dawn.

This is a bit befuddling.

Perhaps they intend to drive Qadaffi into the ocean?

274 jaunte  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 9:42:00pm

re: #265 freetoken

Evolution is a public question not because politicians have anything intelligent to say about the science, but because the question provides a handy cudgel to those who wish to beat the Judeo-Christian moral tradition into submission in the service of managerial progressivism.


I'm not sure what he means by this, but it sounds like he's terribly besieged.

275 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 9:42:07pm

re: #269 ProLifeLiberal

Oh, the name for the Rebel operation to liberate Tripoli?

Operation Mermaid Dawn.

This is a bit befuddling.

Well, "Downfall" was already taken and they may have wanted something that doesn't seem bloodthirsty. Since the objective is to pry Gaddaffi out of there, I'd have named it Operation Clawhammer.

276 Gus  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 9:42:55pm

Rush Limbaugh, Glenn Beck, and Andrew Breitbart. The new role models for modern day conservatives.

277 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 9:43:24pm

re: #275 Dark_Falcon

Well, "Downfall" was already taken and they may have wanted something that doesn't seem bloodthirsty. Since the objective is to pry Gaddaffi out of there, I'd have named it Operation Clawhammer.

How about Operation People Not Being Tortured To Death In Tripoli Anymore?

Too long?

278 ProGunLiberal  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 9:43:44pm

re: #273 EmmmieG

Apparently, as I found out, Tripoli is known as the Mermaid of the Meditteranean.

Still, the operation name makes as much sense as the future intervention into the Congo that will be called Operation Musky Marmot.

279 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 9:43:58pm

re: #263 EmmmieG

Full Disclosure: I'm going to the school tomorrow. As near as I can tell, and I want confirmation of this from the school, for budget reasons they've cancelled all 3rd and 4th year language classes.

The Princess was due to start French 3.

Um, Monday. I'm going Monday. I'm apparently brain dead today.

280 Gus  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 9:44:05pm

Then you have the paranoid reactionaries like Frank Gaffney, Robert Spencer, John Bolton, and other lesser known "idols".

281 A Man for all Seasons  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 9:44:29pm

re: #264 Mr Pancakes

I don't think any lo-cal has more Indian Casinos than San Diego Co ... so we have a wide variety of underachieving or past their prime acts at our beck and call. Which is great! Recently saw Tull and was invited to see Human League with Men Without Hats on Sept 1st. The Go-Gos with Berlin played the other night.

Why don't you have confidence in your second string QB? As a Charger fan Billy Volek does pretty good... he beat the Colts once in a playoff game.

I love SD..I learned to Sail there in 2005..Worked at Ballast point years ago on TDY..Although for the life of me..And this pisses me off..I can't recall what Sub I worked on then.. I know just about every boat I've done work on...Sure have had fun there... Stayed a summer at Hotel Circle by the beach..
Colts don't have a good backup..They all suck and everybody from the Owner to the fans know they suck big time...That why I say hire Farve for one game for a few million bucks and just let him have fun..rett..You have never had receivers like us your whole life.. Just go throw the ball all day.. We are going to lose anyway..

282 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 9:47:01pm

re: #277 EmmmieG

How about Operation People Not Being Tortured To Death In Tripoli Anymore?

Too long?

Too long.

283 laZardo  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 9:47:39pm

re: #269 ProLifeLiberal

Oh, the name for the Rebel operation to liberate Tripoli?

Operation Mermaid Dawn.

This is a bit befuddling.

All they want is for their government to be part of our world~

284 Mr Pancakes  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 9:48:26pm

re: #281 HoosierHoops

I love SD..I learned to Sail there in 2005..Worked at Ballast point years ago on TDY..Although for the life of me..And this pisses me off..I can't recall what Sub I worked on then.. I know just about every boat I've done work on...Sure have had fun there... Stayed a summer at Hotel Circle by the beach..
Colts don't have a good backup..They all suck and everybody from the Owner to the fans know they suck big time...That why I say hire Farve for one game for a few million bucks and just let him have fun..rett..You have never had receivers like us your whole life.. Just go throw the ball all day.. We are going to lose anyway..

You guys will be ok...... I'm hoping Bob Sanders does wonders for our defense..... he says he's healthy.... we'll see. Bob Sanders and Eric Weddle as a safety tandem....... I can't wait! 3/4's of the world is covered by water..... the rest is covered by Weddle.

285 Gus  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 9:48:48pm

re: #282 Dark_Falcon

Too long.

How about "Operation Let's Get it Over With Soon so Libya Can Go Back to Hating America (and Israel) Like All of Those Other Countries Always Do"?

//

286 laZardo  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 9:49:13pm

re: #277 EmmmieG

re: #285 Gus 802

Operation Euroil.

/accurate, but too corporate

287 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 9:49:55pm

re: #171 b_sharp

Apparently dying happy is somehow better than dying unhappy - even though the end result is identical.

Lies for survivors.

The end result on the OTHER end is identical, but the result on THIS side is different, and in a good way.

288 Gus  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 9:50:10pm

re: #286 laZardo

re: #285 Gus 802

Operation Euroil.

/accurate, but too corporate

It's not about oil! It's about freedom and democracy.

//

289 laZardo  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 9:50:52pm

re: #288 Gus 802

It's not about oil! It's about freedom and democracy.

//

And preventing genocide!

//

290 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 9:51:15pm

re: #286 laZardo

re: #285 Gus 802

Operation Euroil.

/accurate, but too corporate

"Drill Gadaffi so we can get back to drilling"?

291 Mr Pancakes  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 9:51:30pm

re: #288 Gus 802

It's not about oil! It's about freedom and democracy.

//

I'm glad you put sarc tags in there.... I hate oil, freedom, and democracy.

292 laZardo  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 9:52:03pm

re: #290 Dark_Falcon

"Drill Gadaffi so we can get back to drilling"?

...ewwww.

/

293 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 9:52:44pm

re: #290 Dark_Falcon

"Drill Gadaffi so we can get back to drilling"?

Though the rebels aren't fighting for oil. They're fighting because Gadaffi really was oppressing and murdering them.

294 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 9:53:51pm

re: #292 laZardo

...ewww.

/

Get your mind out of the gutter, laZardo, before I put the rest of you in there with it.

/

295 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 9:54:32pm

re: #263 EmmmieG

Full Disclosure: I'm going to the school tomorrow. As near as I can tell, and I want confirmation of this from the school, for budget reasons they've cancelled all 3rd and 4th year language classes.

The Princess was due to start French 3.

That's a rational thing to go to the school over.

I ever tell you about the woman who was getting a special ed credential solely to 'help' her son, a pleasant child with some minor processing disabilities who got Bs when left to his own devices?

296 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 9:54:58pm

re: #269 ProLifeLiberal

Oh, the name for the Rebel operation to liberate Tripoli?

Operation Mermaid Dawn.

This is a bit befuddling.

Sounds like an anime title.

297 Gus  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 9:55:10pm

re: #291 Mr Pancakes

I'm glad you put sarc tags in there... I hate oil, freedom, and democracy.

Whew. I was about to get serious again and bring up Syria, East Timor, Darfur, the Sudan, Cambodia, Operation Condor, EIEIO.

Damn hippies!

298 Gus  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 9:55:42pm

Bahrain

[cough]

299 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 9:55:56pm

re: #277 EmmmieG

How about Operation People Not Being Tortured To Death In Tripoli Anymore?

Too long?

I'd go with Operation The World Has Finally Had It Up To Here With Moammar Whose Last Name We Could Never Spell

300 jaunte  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 9:56:18pm

Operation GetDaffy

301 Mr Pancakes  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 9:56:50pm

re: #297 Gus 802

Whew. I was about to get serious again and bring up Syria, East Timor, Darfur, the Sudan, Cambodia, Operation Condor, EIEIO.

Damn hippies!

I hate hippies and AEIOU and sometimes Y.

302 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 9:57:02pm

re: #300 jaunte

Operation GetDaffy

No picking on Daffy. He never hurt nobody.

Even if it probably was Rabbit season.

303 Gus  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 9:57:49pm

re: #301 Mr Pancakes

I hate hippies and AEIOU and sometimes Y.

Ebn Ozn

304 Mr Pancakes  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 9:58:12pm

re: #303 Gus 802

Ebn Ozn

Ding ding ding..... we have a winner!

305 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 9:58:23pm

re: #299 SanFranciscoZionist

I'd go with Operation The World Has Finally Had It Up To Here With Moammar Whose Last Name We Could Never Spell

"In other news, it has been six weeks since Saddam Hussein was gored to death by a pack of wild boars, and the world is still glad to be rid of him."

306 A Man for all Seasons  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 9:58:34pm

re: #284 Mr Pancakes

You guys will be ok... I'm hoping Bob Sanders does wonders for our defense... he says he's healthy... we'll see. Bob Sanders and Eric Weddle as a safety tandem... I can't wait! 3/4's of the world is covered by water... the rest is covered by Weddle.

Sanders reminds me of Ronnie Lott as a player.. Indy had more issues with him than him always being hurt..Bob is a wonderful, powerful player..
But he can't play half speed. in practices he hurt many guys on our team..He is full speed all the time and always got hurt in games...Lott was smarter..He always plays the torpedo..Even when he should back down alittle...I love him..He is a big reason the Colts won the superbowl but the Bears had no idea what a crazy man we have on defense ...All Colts players always said that man is pure crazy on the field..
Good luck this season

307 Gus  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 9:58:39pm

re: #304 Mr Pancakes

Ding ding ding... we have a winner!

I want to get really stoned and see The Cult.

//

308 ProGunLiberal  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 9:59:37pm

re: #296 SanFranciscoZionist

It does, doesn't it?

309 laZardo  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 9:59:45pm

re: #307 Gus 802

I want to get really stoned and see The Cult.

//

Youtube Video
310 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 9:59:47pm

Goodnight, all.

311 Gus  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 10:00:13pm

The Cult - She Sells Sanctuary

Youtube Video
312 Gus  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 10:00:37pm

re: #309 laZardo

[Video]

Hey! :)

313 laZardo  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 10:00:53pm

re: #312 Gus 802

Hey! :)

It's about the only song that came to mind, so. q;

314 Mr Pancakes  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 10:00:59pm

re: #306 HoosierHoops

Sanders reminds me of Ronnie Lott as a player.. Indy had more issues with him than him always being hurt..Bob is a wonderful, powerful player..
But he can't play half speed. in practices he hurt many guys on our team..He is full speed all the time and always got hurt in games...Lott was smarter..He always plays the torpedo..Even when he should back down alittle...I love him..He is a big reason the Colts won the superbowl but the Bears had no idea what a crazy man we have on defense ...All Colts players always said that man is pure crazy on the field..
Good luck this season

Yea..... we'll see. The evil eye is upon him (AJ Smith), He's signed to a 1 year contract. I hope we get that guy you speak of.

315 freetoken  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 10:02:00pm

re: #271 Gus 802

re: #274 jaunte

They have gone with the victim card because apparently that's what their customers (those who buy NR) want.

That editorial is indefensible - both in the overarching approach but also in the specific allegation that it's only the "progressive types" who care about these questions.

316 Mr Pancakes  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 10:02:17pm

re: #309 laZardo

[Video]

Their best song IMHO.

317 A Man for all Seasons  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 10:02:44pm

re: #308 ProLifeLiberal

It does, doesn't it?

Welcome Back Prolife to OU.. For you dude..
Welcome back,
Your dreams were your ticket out.
Welcome back,
To that same old place that you laughed about.

Well the names have all changed since you hung around,
But those dreams have remained and they're turned around.

Who'd have thought they'd lead ya (Who'd have thought they'd lead ya)
Here where we need ya (Here where we need ya)

Yeah we tease him a lot cause we've hot him on the spot, welcome back,
Welcome back, welcome back, welcome back.

318 jaunte  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 10:05:45pm

Goodnight all.

319 Mr Pancakes  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 10:07:05pm

re: #317 HoosierHoops

Welcome Back Prolife to OU.. For you dude..
Welcome back,
Your dreams were your ticket out.
Welcome back,
To that same old place that you laughed about.

Well the names have all changed since you hung around,
But those dreams have remained and they're turned around.

Who'd have thought they'd lead ya (Who'd have thought they'd lead ya)
Here where we need ya (Here where we need ya)

Yeah we tease him a lot cause we've hot him on the spot, welcome back,
Welcome back, welcome back, welcome back.

Ba ba ba ba ba Barino

320 austin_blue  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 10:09:03pm

re: #293 Dark_Falcon

Though the rebels aren't fighting for oil. They're fighting because Gadaffi really was oppressing and murdering them.

Help! Help! I'm bein' oppressed! Look! He's oppressin' me!

321 laZardo  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 10:11:19pm

re: #293 Dark_Falcon

Though the rebels aren't fighting for oil. They're fighting because Gadaffi really was oppressing and murdering them.

The rebels aren't fighting for oil. Their sponsors on the other hand...

322 lostlakehiker  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 10:13:55pm

re: #75 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

Agreed. If a kid pipes up in class that he thinks creationism is just as "valid" as evolution, then he deserves a dunce cap, feelings be damned. A remedial course in critical thinking skills might not be out of the question.

Dunce cap? Good grief, have pity. Really. He's wrong. But railing at kids for being stupid is wrong both when they really are stupid, and when they're just stubbornly defending something they "learned" at home.

Inside, the kid is probably pretty messed up. Face is involved, and sense of self, and worries about losing parental affection. Piling on is cruel.

The teacher doesn't have to back down and say maybe you're right. He can stand his ground and say he's thought it over and so have a lot of other really good people and we really do know better. But that it can take a while to see just why it's true and that historically the new understanding was hard won and took a long time coming.

323 Mr Pancakes  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 10:14:30pm

Barbarino.... duh

What ever happened to Gabe Kaplan anyway?

324 laZardo  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 10:21:02pm

re: #322 lostlakehiker

Dunce cap? Good grief, have pity. Really. He's wrong. But railing at kids for being stupid is wrong both when they really are stupid, and when they're just stubbornly defending something they "learned" at home.

Inside, the kid is probably pretty messed up. Face is involved, and sense of self, and worries about losing parental affection. Piling on is cruel.

The teacher doesn't have to back down and say maybe you're right. He can stand his ground and say he's thought it over and so have a lot of other really good people and we really do know better. But that it can take a while to see just why it's true and that historically the new understanding was hard won and took a long time coming.

I agree. It's not just about saying that kid is wrong but also and especially explaining why.

325 lostlakehiker  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 10:31:41pm

re: #185 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

Call me crazy, but I much rather prefer an honest teacher to a diplomatic one. In fact, I'd like to see them in more cases than just science.

Like, say, health/P.E. teachers telling students that it's asinine to expect hormonal teenagers to abstain from sex til marriage, so here's the means of ensuring safe sex.

There are any number of teens who don't have unsafe sex. Many just have no luck in that department, (as teens) and don't have any sex with anybody else. Others practice a degree of restraint, so that there's actually something new about the wedding day.

Statistically, no amount of education on the safety advantages of restraint will convince more than a fraction of the audience. There are advantages to non-restraint, after all.

Hence, the advisability of explaining how, if for whatever reason the decision on restraint is negative, there's ways to be safer than going ahead without any precautions.

As to honest teachers, of course you want the teacher to be honest. But there's ways to be honest while still being diplomatic.

326 austin_blue  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 10:32:22pm

re: #324 laZardo

I agree. It's not just about saying that kid is wrong but also and especially explaining why.

The Bible says it. I believe it. That settles it.

So much for your explaining, teacher. My child answers to a higher calling than your socialist public schools.

327 Mich-again  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 10:34:28pm

The risk a plaintiff with a cause takes in a case like this is that the judgment will not only lose them this case, but set a precedent that f's up the cause in general. This is from the post..

The San Francisco-based appeals court said the teacher was entitled to immunity because it was not clearly established in the law that a teacher’s expression of hostility to certain religious beliefs in a public school classroom would violate the First Amendment’s establishment clause.

And that pretty much says that teachers now have a free license to express hostility to certain religious beliefs in public school classrooms. Before this case, they might have refrained from that, seeing as the legal question was still out there hanging.

328 austin_blue  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 10:36:05pm

re: #325 lostlakehiker

There are any number of teens who don't have unsafe sex. Many just have no luck in that department, (as teens) and don't have any sex with anybody else. Others practice a degree of restraint, so that there's actually something new about the wedding day.

Were either you or your spouse virgins on *your* wedding day?

No?

Join the 99.999% (fictionalized, but not that inaccurate) club.

329 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 10:38:29pm

re: #322 lostlakehiker

Inside, the kid is probably pretty messed up. Face is involved, and sense of self, and worries about losing parental affection.

Lol, please. When it comes to any one else's kids except suburban conservatives', all we hear from cons is "tough love", "discipline", corporal punishment, and that they need to be treated like barbarians.

Especially for "urban youth" and whatever else frightens them. Smack 'em around and send 'em to juvie when they fuck up.

Meanwhile, it's their kids who are allowed to act like unleashed barbarians to teachers who are trying to help them actually learn something, especially public school teachers. You know, the types breaking the backs of school budgets via their evil satanic communist unions.

Piling on is cruel.

Letting them develop into emotionally retarded adults, believing every emotion is going to be indulged and babied is cruel.

330 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 10:39:57pm

re: #327 Mich-again

The risk a plaintiff with a cause takes in a case like this is that the judgment will not only lose them this case, but set a precedent that f's up the cause in general.

Their cause is already f'ed up, by design.

331 prairiefire  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 10:42:24pm

re: #327 Mich-again

The risk a plaintiff with a cause takes in a case like this is that the judgment will not only lose them this case, but set a precedent that f's up the cause in general. This is from the post..

And that pretty much says that teachers now have a free license to express hostility to certain religious beliefs in public school classrooms. Before this case, they might have refrained from that, seeing as the legal question was still out there hanging.

Hmmm, what about "hate speech"?

332 Mich-again  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 10:44:07pm

re: #329 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin
From reading that one post I have no idea of what point you are trying to make but I can tell you intended one seeing as went with the bold font for especially.

333 austin_blue  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 10:45:25pm

re: #332 Mich-again

From reading that one post I have no idea of what point you are trying to make but I can tell you intended one seeing as went with the bold font for especially.

Boy, have you just stepped in it.

334 prairiefire  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 10:46:56pm

Night, lizards.

335 Mich-again  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 10:48:03pm

re: #331 prairiefire

Hmmm, what about "hate speech"?

If a science teacher in a public school points out the facts and evidence that make a mockery of creationist storylines, that's not hate speech.

336 Varek Raith  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 10:51:37pm

We need a 24hr pizza delivery round these parts.
:)

337 austin_blue  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 10:54:07pm

re: #331 prairiefire

Hmmm, what about "hate speech"?

Calling Creationism "superstitious nonsense" is not hate speech, is it? In truth, it is a statement (Dover, Pa.) of legal determination handed down by a Republican judge.

338 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 10:54:43pm

re: #332 Mich-again

From reading that one post I have no idea of what point you are trying to make but

Then reread it, because it was written in plain, uncomplicated English.

339 Varek Raith  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 10:55:48pm

re: #329 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

Lol, please. When it comes to any one else's kids except suburban conservatives', all we hear from cons is "tough love", "discipline", corporal punishment, and that they need to be treated like barbarians.

Especially for "urban youth" and whatever else frightens them. Smack 'em around and send 'em to juvie when they fuck up.

Meanwhile, it's their kids who are allowed to act like unleashed barbarians to teachers who are trying to help them actually learn something, especially public school teachers. You know, the types breaking the backs of school budgets via their evil satanic communist unions.

Letting them develop into emotionally retarded adults, believing every emotion is going to be indulged and babied is cruel.

Bazing!

340 Mich-again  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 10:58:07pm

And on the same line, if a science teacher ever said that evolution proves there is no God, then he could be fired for spreading BS as well.

The question "Is the Earth 6,000 years old? " can be answered NO based on science alone. The question "Is there a God" can not be answered either YES or NO based on science. It's more philosophy than science.

341 Mich-again  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 10:59:28pm

re: #338 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

Then reread it, because it was written in plain, uncomplicated English.


Uh no it wasn't plain. It was more like getting directions from my wife. Uh if you see the Taco Bell you went too far.

342 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 11:00:36pm

re: #327 Mich-again

And that pretty much says that teachers now have a free license to express hostility to certain religious beliefs in public school classrooms. Before this case, they might have refrained from that, seeing as the legal question was still out there hanging.

No, what it says to Christian-supremacists is, don't point and cry that the government is establishing religion, just because the teacher is "hostile" to your kids' ridiculous belief that 2+2=1.

343 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 11:02:01pm

re: #341 Mich-again

Uh no it wasn't plain. It was more like getting directions from my wife. Uh if you see the Taco Bell you went too far.

Whatever issue you're having about the post, I can't help you with it, sorry.

344 austin_blue  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 11:02:13pm

Coming up on one o'clock. I'm stepping out on the back porch for a cig, a last sip of wine, and finishing off Justinian's Flea by by William Rosen. Excellent history book of "the dark ages" which weren't so dark after all. Politics, war, and disease. Good read!

Sweet dreams, my scaly friends. Cooler today. Only 106.

Heh.

345 Mich-again  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 11:03:10pm

re: #342 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin
I think we agree here. You aren't getting my point that this was a foolish case for the Creationists to even try because not only did they lose the case, the precedent the case sets will make their mission to keep the genie in the bottle even more impossible.

There, now I'm speaking in code too!

346 Kragar  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 11:14:35pm

re: #336 Varek Raith

We need a 24hr pizza delivery round these parts.
:)

I got a 24 hour Mexican food place about a 1/2 mile away. Real food, not taco bell.

347 Stanghazi  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 11:43:55pm

Anyone ever had an iphone just die? I look down @ its just the apple logo. getting hot it actually seems. I shut it down all the way and now, nada. geeze.

348 BeenHereAwhile  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 11:45:55pm

re: #87 SanFranciscoZionist

Lots of things are possible--and as I said earlier, I feel that dealing with adults is quite different.

Although I did once see a geology teacher start a college class with "In this class, I will present to you the most agreed-upon scientific understanding of the origins of the universe and our own solar system and planets. If you do not believe this information, for religious reasons, I promise not to assume that a correct answer on a test constitutes your belief, merely that it shows me you took notes and read the material. Let's go."

I graduated from a university that operated under the umbrella of The Southern Baptist Convention. e.g no dancing on campus.
The history of Christianity religion courses (taught by PhDs) steered well clear of creationism. The biology courses (one of my majors) ignored creationism, and embraced evolution. My Greek classes were taught by a Yale PhD, who refused to tolerate any of the divinity students who wanted to quote the King James rather than translating the Greek bible text on the page in front of him. "That's good, you've memorized that KJV passage, now quit reciting and tell me what it says in Greek."
Therefore I have no problem with those who believe in a literal interpretation of the bible, as long their belief is based upon a literal translation of the bible.

349 Varek Raith  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 11:46:51pm

re: #346 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

I got a 24 hour Mexican food place about a 1/2 mile away. Real food, not taco bell.

You suck.
:)

350 BeenHereAwhile  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 11:59:25pm

re: #347 Stanley Sea

Anyone ever had an iphone just die? I look down @ its just the apple logo. getting hot it actually seems. I shut it down all the way and now, nada. geeze.

Let it cool down completely (which it undoubtedly has done by now); tomorrow plug in the charging cord, boot it up & back it up. Sounds like the battery is getting ready to kack.

Then take it to your friendly neighborhood iPhone tech, who shouldn't charge more than $30.00 to replace the battery.

FWIW, my old iPhone 3G (bought new) got really weird, and the friendly neighborhood iPhone tech found an extra screw left over from factory assembly loose inside the case.

351 Kragar  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 12:01:51am

re: #349 Varek Raith

You suck.
:)

Es muy bueno

Image: santanas01.jpg

352 Stanghazi  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 12:02:14am

re: #350 BeenHereAwhile

Let it cool down completely (which it undoubtedly has done by now); tomorrow plug in the charging cord, boot it up & back it up. Sounds like the battery is getting ready to kack.

Then take it to your friendly neighborhood iPhone tech, who shouldn't charge more than $30.00 to replace the battery.

FWIW, my old iPhone 3G (bought new) got really weird, and the friendly neighborhood iPhone tech found an extra screw left over from factory assembly loose inside the case.

Thank you. It's fairly new. Just feels like a bad luck evening all of a sudden. bleh.

353 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 12:04:26am

Anyone awake?

354 Kragar  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 12:04:40am

re: #353 ggt

Anyone awake?

No.

355 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 12:07:14am

re: #354 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

No.

Thanks for playing.

How are you?

356 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 12:10:44am

My head hurts and I can't sleep.

There seems to be nothing interesting in the news.

357 Kragar  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 12:11:04am

re: #355 ggt

Thanks for playing.

How are you?

OK. Kids started back to school this week. Took a few days off to take care of stuff around the house and goof off for a few days.

358 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 12:12:12am

For Real?

Stealing dogs?

Not so interesting, but sad.

359 Varek Raith  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 12:12:30am

re: #356 ggt

My head hurts and I can't sleep.

There seems to be nothing interesting in the news.

Yep, same here.
Stupid migraines.
:/

360 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 12:12:38am

re: #357 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

OK. Kids started back to school this week. Took a few days off to take care of stuff around the house and goof off for a few days.

Yeah, mine too. His first day of his Senior Year.

I'm kinda bummed.

361 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 12:13:14am

re: #359 Varek Raith

Yep, same here.
Stupid migraines.
:/

Not a migraine, I think allergies.

*idea*

I could take allergy meds

What a concept.


duh

362 Varek Raith  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 12:13:16am

Ah, the joys of not having kids.
Though...
I have cats.
Same thing I suppose.
:P

363 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 12:15:11am

re: #362 Varek Raith

Ah, the joys of not having kids.
Though...
I have cats.
Same thing I suppose.
:P

Not at all.

Cats have you.

You have kids.

364 Varek Raith  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 12:16:10am

re: #363 ggt

Not at all.

Cats have you.

You have kids.

Image: lolcatoverlor128478830383882797.jpg

365 Kragar  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 12:16:27am

re: #360 ggt

Yeah, mine too. His first day of his Senior Year.

I'm kinda bummed.

3rd and 4th Grade

366 Kragar  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 12:17:49am

Get to Know the Weapons of Space Marine


In a universe overrun with monsters, daemons, and heretics, you're going to need some serious firepower.

No flamer? BURN HERETICS!

367 Varek Raith  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 12:18:53am

re: #366 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Get to Know the Weapons of Space Marine

No flamer? BURN HERETICS!

Look over there!
An Ork learning something!

368 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 12:18:58am

re: #365 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

3rd and 4th Grade

enjoy!

369 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 12:19:12am

re: #366 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Get to Know the Weapons of Space Marine

No flamer? BURN HERETICS!

Do they work against theocrats?

370 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 12:27:12am

Oh NO!

Sign of of the Apocalypse!

371 Kragar  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 12:30:51am

re: #367 Varek Raith

Look over there!
An Ork learning something!

Pff, Orks don't need to learn anything. Its all genetically encoded.

372 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 12:31:32am

killer amoebas?

373 Kragar  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 12:31:57am

re: #370 ggt

Oh NO!

Sign of of the Apocalypse!

I thought this was the sign of the Apocalypse.

374 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 12:32:28am

re: #371 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Pff, Orks don't need to learn anything. Its all genetically encoded.

Are you guys talking about Orcs?

375 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 12:32:43am

re: #373 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

I thought this was the sign of the Apocalypse.

That too!

376 Kragar  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 12:32:59am

re: #372 ggt

killer amoebas?

Never go outside...ever.

377 Kragar  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 12:33:38am

re: #374 ggt

Are you guys talking about Orcs?

NO! Orks are completely different from Orcs. Get it right.

378 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 12:34:23am

re: #377 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

NO! Orks are completely different from Orcs. Get it right.

I am trying.

If Apocalypse were a city would it be in Michigan?

379 Kragar  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 12:35:48am

re: #378 ggt

I am trying.

If Apocalypse were a city would it be in Michigan?

Signs point to yes.

Image: detroit.jpg

380 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 12:35:53am

So, I take it that neither Orks or Orcs change lightbulbs?

381 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 12:36:29am

re: #379 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Signs point to yes.

Image: detroit.jpg

I thought it would be the road to Hell.

382 Kragar  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 12:37:28am

re: #380 ggt

So, I take it that neither Orks or Orcs change lightbulbs?

Orcs wouldn't understand them and Orks would just get some Gretchins or Snotlings to do it if a slave wasn't available.

383 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 12:37:33am

Forgot the link to Hell.

384 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 12:38:43am

re: #382 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Orcs wouldn't understand them and Orks would just get some Gretchins or Snotlings to do it if a slave wasn't available.

I'll never get all the Warhammer lingo.

385 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 12:41:31am

re: #378 ggt

I am trying.

If Apocalypse were a city would it be in Michigan?

Robocop was meant to depict dystopian future Detroit, but was filmed in Dallas. That's utterly fitting on more levels than can be adequately described in 4096 characters.

386 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 12:45:39am

re: #385 negativ

Robocop was meant to depict dystopian future Detroit, but was filmed in Dallas. That's utterly fitting on more levels than can be adequately described in 4096 characters.

Detroit seems to be the subject of many dystopias --in Sci-Fi anyway.

Such a shame too!

I would think it would be somewhere in Nebraska or Oklahoma.

Oklahoma has red dirt and all . . .

387 Kragar  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 12:46:48am

re: #384 ggt

I'll never get all the Warhammer lingo.

Whats so complicated about a fungal species genetically engineered to perform specific roles and has several variant breeds of varying attributes and sizes?

388 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 12:47:23am

re: #387 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Whats so complicated about a fungal species genetically engineered to perform specific roles and has several variant breeds of varying attributes and sizes?

Are you talking about human beings?

389 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 12:49:01am

I am going to try to sleep again.

My head might feel better if I am horizontal.

Have a great morning all!

Varek--feel better.

390 Kragar  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 1:35:50am

Bachmann: I'll get gas under $2

Bachmann didn’t detail how she would cut the price of gasoline, which is tied to the global price of oil. She briefly mentioned the prospect of oil shale development in Western states and has been an active proponent of increased domestic oil drilling, including in Alaska’s Arctic National Wildlife Refuge.

Maybe she cut a deal with God about it.

391 freetoken  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 2:03:19am
MP3 Audio
392 researchok  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 2:48:20am

Morning, all

393 dell*nix  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 3:29:26am

Interesting message to all the politicians.

Youtube Video
394 RogueOne  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 3:51:22am

Good morning folks. I'll try to keep the volume down....

395 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 3:53:53am

morning honcos.

396 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 4:03:51am

re: #383 ggt

Forgot the link to Hell.

I was there on 6/6/06.

397 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 4:06:05am

WE ARE ALL GONNA DIE!!!
(by "we" I mean either me or marjoriemoon)
Image: al092011.png

398 RogueOne  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 4:08:50am

re: #397 Cannadian Club Akbar

WE ARE ALL GONNA DIE!!!
(by "we" I mean either me or marjoriemoon)
Image: al092011.png

Tropical storms/hurricanes create more jobs in FL than aliens.

399 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 4:09:51am

re: #398 RogueOne

Tropical storms/hurricanes create more jobs in FL than aliens.

But not as many as food stamps.

400 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 4:09:55am

re: #398 RogueOne

Tropical storms/hurricanes create more jobs in FL than aliens.

And aliens create more jobs than ... uh... I got nuthin...

401 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 4:11:21am

I, for one, welcome my Tropical Storm/Hurricane Overlord...

402 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 4:11:57am

re: #401 Cannadian Club Akbar

I, for one, welcome my Tropical Storm/Hurricane Overlord...

Time to fix the drought?

403 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 4:13:03am

re: #402 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Time to fix the drought?

Actually, we have had a shitload of rain this year. But TS/hurricanes are fun to go through.

404 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 4:14:29am

Hurricane Irene, 1999.
[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

405 RogueOne  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 4:18:43am

re: #404 Cannadian Club Akbar

Hurricane Irene, 1999.
[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

Come on Eileen, 1982

Youtube Video
406 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 4:20:30am

For you, Rogue...
Off-duty NYPD cop arrested mid-crime, charged with raping school teacher at gunpoint

[Link: www.nydailynews.com...]

407 RogueOne  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 4:24:56am

re: #406 Cannadian Club Akbar

For you, Rogue...
Off-duty NYPD cop arrested mid-crime, charged with raping school teacher at gunpoint

[Link: www.nydailynews.com...]

[Link: twitter.com...] always has a lot of stories like that involving officers. I tend to stay away from those. I don't think rape/molestering is part of police culture and when you have a million plus people in uniform some of them are going to be sexual predators no matter how hard you try to weed them out.

408 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 4:28:00am

re: #407 RogueOne

Story from the twitter feed.
[Link: www.bradenton.com...]

409 Varek Raith  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 4:28:46am

re: #401 Cannadian Club Akbar

I, for one, welcome my Tropical Storm/Hurricane Overlord...

It sure ain't Rick Perry.
;)

410 RogueOne  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 4:28:56am

I guess I'm ready to die:

[Link: www.esquire.com...]

I've never flown a cessna but I have flown in one so I'm counting it. I think they've missed a few, like "get married at least once", "Be involved in a bar fight" and one of my old favorites "piss someone off so severely they try to kill you".

411 RogueOne  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 4:29:52am

re: #408 Cannadian Club Akbar

Story from the twitter feed.
[Link: www.bradenton.com...]

He sounds like someone you really don't want walking around with a badge.

412 Varek Raith  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 4:30:42am

re: #410 RogueOne

I guess I'm ready to die:

[Link: www.esquire.com...]

I've never flown a cessna but I have flown in one so I'm counting it. I think they've missed a few, like "get married at least once", "Be involved in a bar fight" and one of my old favorites "piss someone off so severely they try to kill you".

If "detonating a nuclear device just for kicks" isn't on that list it don't count!

413 RogueOne  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 4:33:58am

re: #412 Varek Raith

"sleep with someone from every state in the union or every continent" isn't on there either. Some people need better goals in life.

414 Varek Raith  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 4:35:23am

re: #413 RogueOne

"sleep with someone from every state in the union or every continent" isn't on there either. Some people need better goals in life.

Get tackled by the Secret Service.

415 RogueOne  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 4:35:32am

I'm betting I could come up with a pretty good list of "75 things you should definitely not do before you die".

416 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 4:36:21am

re: #414 Varek Raith

Get tackled by the Secret Service.

While on White House grounds. AFTER climbing the fence.

417 Varek Raith  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 4:36:35am

re: #415 RogueOne

I'm betting I could come up with a pretty good list of "75 things you should definitely not do before you die".

Liking Disco.

418 RogueOne  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 4:37:38am

re: #414 Varek Raith

Get tackled by the Secret Service.

I had them come to my shop once, they weren't going to tackle anyone though. My brother had just left the marines and one of his buddies had applied to be on the presidents flight crew. There was a stupid gun charge (a bb gun!) involving him and my brother. They wanted to interview him about it.

419 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 4:37:59am

re: #417 Varek Raith

Liking Disco.

Youtube Video
420 RogueOne  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 4:38:07am

re: #417 Varek Raith

Liking Disco.

Getting caught sleeping with a cops wife.

421 Varek Raith  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 4:39:06am

re: #420 RogueOne

Getting caught sleeping with a cops wife.

While hiking the Appalachian trail.

422 RogueOne  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 4:40:05am

re: #421 Varek Raith

While hiking the Appalachian trail.

Drunkenly telling an officer "i bet your dog can't smell the weed I've got hidden on me"

423 Varek Raith  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 4:43:58am

Rofl.

Youtube Video
424 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 4:45:41am

Never tell your wife she's gained some weight.

425 RogueOne  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 4:50:05am

re: #424 Cannadian Club Akbar

Never tell your wife she's gained some weight.

or her little sister has better boobs.

426 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 4:51:59am

re: #425 RogueOne

or her little sister has better boobs.

Never let your wife look over your shoulder while you're posting on a blog. Heh.

427 RogueOne  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 5:08:49am

re: #426 Cannadian Club Akbar

Never take your pants off at the airport
Don't take a job as a drug mule
Never hit on your GF's mom (in front of your gf)
Don't drive drunk and naked
When you come home drunk and pass out on the couch, make sure it's actually your couch and your home.
When pulled over for speeding never ask the cop if he's ever seen the tv show "worlds most dangerous police chases"

428 RogueOne  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 5:13:31am

re: #426 Cannadian Club Akbar

Oh, and a real one "never tell a cop you'll make more money in travel pay that day than he can write tickets for" when you get pulled over in Iowa. They take that as a challenge.

429 JEA62  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 5:21:32am

Jesus would have sued him...

430 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 5:22:31am

re: #428 RogueOne

Oh, and a real one "never tell a cop you'll make more money in travel pay that day than he can write tickets for" when you get pulled over in Iowa. They take that as a challenge.

There was a guy years ago who was going so fast on a bike (in or near Chicago, IIRC) the cops had to call the manufacturer to see if the bike could actually go that fast. He ended up with 11 ticket, or so.

431 RogueOne  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 5:23:47am

Ashton Kutcher has been taking some hits lately:

Ashton Kutcher Is a Massive Whore
[Link: gawker.com...]


Not only did Ashton Kutcher pose for the cover of Details' September issue, he also edited a special "online only" version, out today. Turns out Hollywood's prettiest boytoy is one compromised whore of a magazine editor, directing most of his recommendations and profiles to tech companies he's invested in, with nary a word of disclosure. It's shameless even by Condé Nast standards.

432 sattv4u2  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 5:28:04am

re: #431 RogueOne

Ashton Kutcher has been taking some hits lately:

Ashton Kutcher Is a Massive Whore
[Link: gawker.com...]

Good thing the producers of Two And A Half Men wanted to get rid of the distraction of Charlie Sheens personal life!

//

433 RogueOne  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 5:28:19am

re: #430 Cannadian Club Akbar

I remember that. I think you're right, it was in IL.

I had that officer in IA so pissed I really thought he was going to hit me. He actually cracked my taillight and wrote me 5, one for the cracked taillight. It cost me almost $400.

434 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 5:29:50am

re: #433 RogueOne

I remember that. I think you're right, it was in IL.

I had that officer in IA so pissed I really thought he was going to hit me. He actually cracked my taillight and wrote me 5, one for the cracked taillight. It cost me almost $400.

After he handed them to you, you should have asked where the closest bar is located.

435 sattv4u2  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 5:30:39am

re: #434 Cannadian Club Akbar

After he handed them to you, you should have asked where the closest bar is located.

Better

"Officer, I'm sure you'll know this. Where's the nearest Dunkin Donuts?"

436 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 5:33:14am

re: #435 sattv4u2

Better

"Officer, I'm sure you'll know this. Where's the nearest Dunkin Donuts?"

Or,
"I'll bet that little sissy baton of yours doesn't even hurt".

437 sattv4u2  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 5:34:19am

re: #436 Cannadian Club Akbar

You in for some of the backlash from Irene??
[Link: www.reuters.com...]

438 RogueOne  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 5:35:43am

re: #434 Cannadian Club Akbar

After he handed them to you, you should have asked where the closest bar is located.

I was staying right in the middle of a big drug corridor with an out-of-state vehicle (shiny red new mustang). I got pulled over almost weekly on the stupidest of pretexts so they could ask to search my car. I usually got warnings which I stashed in the glove box. When I opened it up to get my registration for him he saw them and asked to see them to which I told him "no". He got an immediate attitude and started in with a lecture about taking the driving laws seriously in their state. I told him "fuck you. How about write the ticket and save the lecture. I'm busy".... That's when he asked me to get out of the car.

439 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 5:37:07am

re: #437 sattv4u2

You in for some of the backlash from Irene??
[Link: www.reuters.com...]

Not to worried. If it goes over Cuba, the mountains will rip it apart. Not that it can't strengthen after that.

440 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 5:40:43am

re: #438 RogueOne

Next time tape the warnings to a side window.

441 RogueOne  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 5:44:59am

re: #440 Cannadian Club Akbar

Next time tape the warnings to a side window.

It was just outside the S. Dakota border in winter and it was cold. He was wearing one of those fur lined caps with the ear flaps and the big police star in the center. He was all red-faced and yelling and he looked like a commie which struck me funny. That's when he stomped on my car and cracked the taillight.

442 sattv4u2  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 5:53:50am

Decision time

Been at work since 10 last night (it's almost 9 a.m here)

So really, it's more like dinner time than breakfast

SO,,,, should I have some of the eggs/green peppers/onions I brought with me, or the 3 pack of Twinkies sitting next to the keyboard!

443 RogueOne  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 5:54:04am

Don’t Go to Acapulco Right Now
[Link: gawker.com...]


If mass graves filled with the bodies of murdered tourists haven't dissuaded you from making Acapulco your vacation/honeymoon/extramarital affair destination yet, this might do the trick: headless corpses have been turning up all over the seaside town, according to Mexican authorities.

The death toll includes "two decapitated and scalped bodies" that were cut up into pieces and left outside a Sam's Club, and three other headless bodies left in a car parked by the main tourist drag. Nobody knows where the heads have gone, but the faces and scalps of the "two decapitated and scalped bodies" were stuffed into a purse and left at the scene. Not really the kind of thing that a typical Sam's Club shopper's looking for (i.e. gigantic jars of mayonnaise and pickles).

444 sattv4u2  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 5:54:35am

re: #443 RogueOne

heh,, I was just reading that and was going to post it

445 RogueOne  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 5:54:49am

re: #442 sattv4u2

Been a long day. Eat both.

446 sattv4u2  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 5:55:19am

re: #445 RogueOne

Been a long day. Eat both.

works for me

Thanks

447 sattv4u2  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 5:56:37am

re: #443 RogueOne

Don’t Go to Acapulco Right Now
[Link: gawker.com...]

The dismembered and decapitated bodies of two other men were found at the entrance to an outlet of Sam's Club, a unit of U.S. retailer Wal-Mart Stores Inc.

NOTE TO SELF

when in Mexico,, shop at Costco!

448 RogueOne  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 5:57:00am

re: #447 sattv4u2

The dismembered and decapitated bodies of two other men were found at the entrance to an outlet of Sam's Club, a unit of U.S. retailer Wal-Mart Stores Inc.

NOTE TO SELF

when in Mexico,, shop at Costco!

That's where they sell the heads.

449 sattv4u2  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 5:57:45am

re: #448 RogueOne

That's where they sell the heads.

in bulk

450 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 6:03:16am

A friend just emailed me. I sent him an email a couple days ago telling him he looks fat, then called him Porky. He thanked me and said no one else would say it. HAHAHAHAHA!

451 RogueOne  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 6:04:26am

Sheriff Joe Is Keeping the Birther Dream Alive
[Link: gawker.com...]


The Tea Party's very own Sheriff Joe Arpaio — famous for his pink panty fetish and for leading a department full of human traffickers — on Wednesday night met with "more than 325 people" (!) who fear that Barack Obama will try to run on 2012 ballots in Arizona's Maricopa County using a fake birth certificate. Oh yes.

The Surprise Tea Party Patriots™ handed Sheriff Joe a petition with 242 signatures. Joe said he'll "probe" the issue (with tax payer's money), and keep Maricopa County free of forged document-wielding illegal aliens.
....
While we're on the subject of Arizona and undesirables, wouldn't it be cheaper to just build a border fence around Maricopa County?

If it keeps him from having the time to raid the streets in a tank then I say this is a good use of his office.

452 sattv4u2  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 6:06:47am

re: #450 Cannadian Club Akbar

A friend just emailed me. I sent him an email a couple days ago telling him he looks fat, then called him Porky. He thanked me and said no one else would say it. HAHAHAHAHA!

"You're fat!"

"gee,, thanks"

"No problem. Want a second opinion"

"sure"

"You're ugly too"

453 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 6:09:30am

I don't get Ashton Kusher, I don't think he is that attractive, or talented. I certainly don't understand why any woman would leave BRUCE WILLIS for him, or for any reason.

Heads are collectible in Mexico?

How is everyone?

454 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 6:10:23am

re: #451 RogueOne

Sheriff Joe Is Keeping the Birther Dream Alive
[Link: gawker.com...]

If it keeps him from having the time to raid the streets in a tank then I say this is a good use of his office.

Wonder what Gov Christie would have said?

455 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 6:10:49am

re: #454 ggt

Wonder what Gov Christie would have said?

with a New Jersey accent.

456 Unions = Innovation slash slash  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 6:13:59am

re: #410 RogueOne

I guess I'm ready to die:

[Link: www.esquire.com...]

I've never flown a cessna but I have flown in one so I'm counting it. I think they've missed a few, like "get married at least once", "Be involved in a bar fight" and one of my old favorites "piss someone off so severely they try to kill you".

Cessna...yawn.

Youtube Video

Also, Good Morning Honcos!

457 sattv4u2  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 6:14:14am

re: #455 ggt

with a New Jersey Joisey accent.

ftfy

458 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 6:14:54am

This is so provocative. I can't not tie it to Bachmann, although I think it is a non-issue as far as she is concerned.

459 sattv4u2  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 6:14:57am

re: #410 RogueOne

I guess I'm ready to die

Can I have your car?

460 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 6:15:30am

re: #459 sattv4u2

I guess I'm ready to die

Can I have your car?

Can I have the rest?

461 sattv4u2  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 6:15:52am

re: #460 ggt

Can I have the rest?

in peace?

462 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 6:17:03am

re: #461 sattv4u2

in peace?

I'd be in peace if I had there rest of his stuff, sure.

463 Unions = Innovation slash slash  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 6:17:17am

re: #456 rwdflynavy

Cessna...yawn.

[Video]Also, Good Morning Honcos!

On a related note (and shameless plug), anyone remember the Achille Lauro catching on fire and sinking off the Somali coast in 1994?

In this video I just discovered, I'm the pilot at the controls of the helo toward the end of the video.

Youtube Video
464 Killgore Trout  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 6:17:51am

Barrage of rockets from Gaza strike Israel, Egypt

The barrage of rockets and mortars fired into southern Israel continued Sunday, with the military reporting more than 20 such attacks by noon.

465 sattv4u2  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 6:17:55am

re: #462 ggt

I'd be in peace if I had there rest of his stuff, sure.

umm, what are you going to do with a used jock strap?

Wait ,, on second thought, don;t tell me ,,, ,

466 RogueOne  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 6:18:55am

re: #456 rwdflynavy

My mom went to the Train concert thursday and said it was the best show since the Neil Diamond tour of '08. So, if he ever comes around you might want to jump on those tickets. (I've been holding that in for days waiting for you to show up.)

467 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 6:19:01am

re: #465 sattv4u2

umm, what are you going to do with a used jock strap?

Wait ,, on second thought, don;t tell me ,,, ,

With the money I'll get from his bank accounts, I'll be able afford to donate stuff like that.

468 Unions = Innovation slash slash  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 6:20:19am

re: #466 RogueOne

My mom went to the Train concert thursday and said it was the best show since the Neil Diamond tour of '08. So, if he ever comes around you might want to jump on those tickets. (I've been holding that in for days waiting for you to show up.)

Youtube Video
469 Unions = Innovation slash slash  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 6:21:15am

re: #466 RogueOne

My mom went to the Train concert thursday and said it was the best show since the Neil Diamond tour of '08. So, if he ever comes around you might want to jump on those tickets. (I've been holding that in for days waiting for you to show up.)

Glad you got that out of your system!

470 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 6:21:29am

re: #468 rwdflynavy

[Video]

I LOVE that some!!!

471 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 6:22:41am

re: #470 Cannadian Club Akbar

I LOVE that some!!!

some=song, whatever...

472 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 6:23:16am

re: #468 rwdflynavy

[Video]

The words flying around that video were just irritating.

sorry

473 Unions = Innovation slash slash  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 6:23:43am

re: #471 Cannadian Club Akbar

some=song, whatever...

I got a fever! and the only cure is more ukelele!!
//

474 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 6:24:37am

re: #473 rwdflynavy

I got a fever! and the only cure is more ukelele!!
//

Youtube Video
475 RogueOne  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 6:25:04am

I made it through about 20 seconds.

476 Unions = Innovation slash slash  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 6:25:18am

re: #474 Cannadian Club Akbar

[Video]

My old boss was a huge Israel fan from his time stationed in Hawaii. I used to refer to him as the Big Fat Hawaiian guy.

477 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 6:26:13am

re: #476 rwdflynavy

My old boss was a huge Israel fan from his time stationed in Hawaii. I used to refer to him as the Big Fat Hawaiian guy.

Why would you call your boss that?
/

478 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 6:26:31am

Ya know, just about the best thing in the world is . . .

an old dog.

479 sattv4u2  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 6:27:06am

re: #478 ggt

Ya know, just about the best thing in the world is . . .

an old dog.

{blush}

thanks!

480 RogueOne  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 6:27:12am

re: #474 Cannadian Club Akbar

That guy has been to one too many hog roasts. Needs more pineapple, less ham.

481 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 6:27:14am

re: #475 RogueOne

I made it through about 20 seconds.

I'm not sure I made it that far.

482 Unions = Innovation slash slash  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 6:27:23am

be back in a bit, young one is up for breakfast.

483 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 6:28:36am

re: #474 Cannadian Club Akbar

[Video]

I love Bruddah Iz.

484 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 6:29:50am

brb

485 sattv4u2  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 6:30:22am

re: #484 Cannadian Club Akbar

brb

must you?

486 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 6:30:22am

re: #480 RogueOne

That guy has been to one too many hog roasts. Needs more pineapple, less ham.

Bruddah Iz as passed on. Leaving a wife and daughter and many, many fans.

487 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 6:34:07am

So, Christianist is the new equivalent to Islamist?

Those who say they are, but aren't.

488 RogueOne  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 6:36:21am

re: #486 ggt

Bruddah Iz as passed on. Leaving a wife and daughter and many, many fans.

Sorry to hear that. Wasn't it ham that killed mama cass too? There needs to be a law.

489 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 6:37:30am

re: #488 RogueOne

Sorry to hear that. Wasn't it ham that killed mama cass too? There needs to be a law.

They tried that in NY, it failed.

In this country, you free to eat all you can get for as long as you can get it.

490 RogueOne  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 6:38:05am

re: #489 ggt

They could institute a 3 day waiting period.

491 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 6:39:07am

re: #490 RogueOne

They could institute a 3 day waiting period.

Nah, people wouldn't abide, and I'm not sure it would save one life.

492 Unions = Innovation slash slash  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 6:39:50am

re: #488 RogueOne

Sorry to hear that. Wasn't it ham that killed mama cass too? There needs to be a law.

She died of a heart attack. That ought to be a law!!
//

Also, I'm back.

493 sattv4u2  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 6:41:13am

knock knock knock

"Who's there?"


"It's the HAM police,,, come on out with without the bacon, and nobody gets hurt!"

494 Unions = Innovation slash slash  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 6:41:45am

re: #493 sattv4u2

knock knock knock

"Who's there?"

"It's the HAM police,,, come on out with without the bacon, and nobody gets hurt!"

HAM police is redundant.
//

495 sattv4u2  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 6:42:15am

re: #494 rwdflynavy

HAM police is redundant.
//

ouch

496 RogueOne  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 6:44:02am

When the aliens show up they're going to try to fatten us up before they eat us and the chubby ones are going to go first. The planet has to go on a diet in order to save mankind:

Alice Cooper did the scenario analysis years ago but no one is paying attention:

No Baloney, Homo Sapiens

Youtube Video
497 Unions = Innovation slash slash  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 6:44:44am

re: #496 RogueOne

When the aliens show up they're going to try to fatten us up before they eat us and the chubby ones are going to go first. The planet has to go on a diet in order to save mankind:

Alice Cooper did the scenario analysis years ago but no one is paying attention:

No Baloney, Homo Sapiens

[Video]

It's a COOKBOOK!!!
//

498 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 6:46:24am

23% for everybody is a fair tax?

499 Unions = Innovation slash slash  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 6:48:23am

re: #498 ggt

23% for everybody is a fair tax?

It contains a provision for a "pre-bate" for those making less than a certain amount. It is an interesting idea.

500 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 6:49:02am

Bill introduced by Gabby Giffords in January to cut Congress Critter salaries by 5%.

I could support this.

501 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 6:49:28am

re: #499 rwdflynavy

It contains a provision for a "pre-bate" for those making less than a certain amount. It is an interesting idea.

What about corporations?

502 sattv4u2  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 6:49:29am

re: #498 ggt

23% for everybody is a fair tax?

After eliminating all other fed taxes you currently pay (income,,,SS,,, ect) that tax would be added to goods and services you buy NEW (not on used cars, used power tools, used anything) AFTER the imputed taxes (about 23%) that are currently in that new product are also eliminated from them

503 RogueOne  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 6:49:30am

Zipper Catches Skin:
[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

Cooper's weirdest/most unusual album. Now I know why:


Zipper Catches Skin and the following album, DaDa, are two albums which Alice reportedly has no recollection of recording, due to excessive alcohol abuse.

504 Killgore Trout  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 6:50:47am

re: #498 ggt

23% for everybody is a fair tax?

Much like everything that passes for "fiscal conservatism" these days the Fair Tax is complete nonsense and fiction. Here's a pretty thorough debunking: Unspinning the FairTax

505 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 6:51:21am

Ron Paul and Barney Frank agree on something?

Taking Marijuana off the list of Federal crimes.

506 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 6:52:29am

re: #504 Killgore Trout

Much like everything that passes for "fiscal conservatism" these days the Fair Tax is complete nonsense and fiction. Here's a pretty thorough debunking: Unspinning the FairTax

So that totally made my eyes glaze over.

507 Unions = Innovation slash slash  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 6:53:14am

re: #501 ggt

What about corporations?

IIRC they pay the same tax on goods and services they buy. No other corporate taxes.

508 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 6:54:40am

Did Every Member of the GOP co-sponsor this atrocious bill?

509 Obdicut  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 6:55:10am

re: #499 rwdflynavy

It contains a provision for a "pre-bate" for those making less than a certain amount. It is an interesting idea.

It is a terrible, horrible, absolutely ridiculous idea with no merits to it and a hell of a lot wrong with it.

Quick look at what's wrong with it:

1. By loading so much tax burden onto sales tax, the tax becomes massively regressive. If you 'prebate' to the extent that the poor are covered, then this cost falls mostly on the middle class. This is something the Fair Tax afficianadoes will actually admit when questioned hard enough: The Fair Tax moves the tax burden to the middle class, and benefits the very poor (if there are rebates) and very rich.

2. The things with sales tax on them would be massively increased, including services. There is no real flat tax proposal out there, but most of those making a pretense towards reality tax things like medical care, music lessons, getting a roof repaired, etc. Most importantly, houses and rent would also have this tax applied to it.

3. Because new things are taxed and old things are not, a shadow econmy/black market would spring up and consumption of new things would decrease markedly.

4. A gigantic new bureaucracy. They get rid of the IRS and replace it with state agencies collecting sales tax. This means that instead of individuals and their income being tracked, millions of small transactions will be tracked; like the current sales tax system, but with a much larger benefit from avoiding it. This means we'd have to have a ton of investigators.

This article pretty well sums up why the Fair Tax is glibertarian bullshit:

[Link: www.factcheck.org...]

510 Killgore Trout  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 6:55:12am

re: #506 ggt

So that totally made my eyes glaze over.

It's a little complicated but the short story is that it doesn't work. Also this chart shows that it's another attempt to create lower taxes for the rich while shifting the tax burden onto poor and middle class tax payers....
Image: Fair%20Tax%20Distribution%20Slide%20by%20Income.JPG

511 sattv4u2  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 6:56:36am

re: #504 Killgore Trout

Much like everything that passes for "fiscal conservatism" these days the Fair Tax is complete nonsense and fiction. Here's a pretty thorough debunking: Unspinning the FairTax

They are 100% wrong on their "facts"

$23 of those dollars will be for taxes, meaning that the original pre-tax price of the item is $77. To get $23 in taxes on a $77 item, one must impose a 30 percent tax. In other words, a 23 percent sales tax on the tax-inclusive sales price is equivalent to a 30 percent tax on the actual price of the item.

Before the item hits the shelves for sale, this bill would eliminate all the taxes placed on it PRIOR to sale, meaning that $100 item (pre tax) would have a 23% DEDUCTION from it (meaning it hits the shelf at $77)

THEN,, the 23% tax would be added to the $77 with the final cost coming to $94.71

First, the

512 Obdicut  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 6:56:43am

re: #510 Killgore Trout

Well, at least it'd be a fast way to kill the middle class, rather than the death of 1000 cuts the 'fiscal conservatives' seem determined to inflict on it.

513 Unions = Innovation slash slash  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 6:58:01am

re: #509 Obdicut

It is a terrible, horrible, absolutely ridiculous idea with no merits to it and a hell of a lot wrong with it.

Quick look at what's wrong with it:

1. By loading so much tax burden onto sales tax, the tax becomes massively regressive. If you 'prebate' to the extent that the poor are covered, then this cost falls mostly on the middle class. This is something the Fair Tax afficianadoes will actually admit when questioned hard enough: The Fair Tax moves the tax burden to the middle class, and benefits the very poor (if there are rebates) and very rich.

2. The things with sales tax on them would be massively increased, including services. There is no real flat tax proposal out there, but most of those making a pretense towards reality tax things like medical care, music lessons, getting a roof repaired, etc. Most importantly, houses and rent would also have this tax applied to it.

3. Because new things are taxed and old things are not, a shadow econmy/black market would spring up and consumption of new things would decrease markedly.

4. A gigantic new bureaucracy. They get rid of the IRS and replace it with state agencies collecting sales tax. This means that instead of individuals and their income being tracked, millions of small transactions will be tracked; like the current sales tax system, but with a much larger benefit from avoiding it. This means we'd have to have a ton of investigators.

This article pretty well sums up why the Fair Tax is glibertarian bullshit:

[Link: www.factcheck.org...]


I don't think it is quite that simple. I'm not a proponent, just reading the article you and killgoretrout linked.

We stand behind our earlier analysis of the FairTax. The proposal to which Gov. Huckabee referred is not a 23 percent tax, but rather a 30 percent tax. And it is revenue-neutral only through an accounting trick. It will collect more money from those earning between $15,000 and $200,000 per year and less from those earning more than $200,000 per year. It is possible that the FairTax would make most people better off, but much of that gain would be a direct result of making the tax code less fair.

[Link: www.factcheck.org...]

514 sattv4u2  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 6:58:02am

dammit ,,, bbl ,

dern ESPN

515 Obdicut  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 6:58:19am

re: #511 sattv4u2

Before the item hits the shelves for sale, this bill would eliminate all the taxes placed on it PRIOR to sale, meaning that $100 item (pre tax) would have a 23% DEDUCTION from it (meaning it hits the shelf at $77)

What taxes placed on it prior to sale? What are you talking about?

Did you notice that, in the current, real world, not a glibertarian fantasy, when the tax on airline tickets was temporarily suspended, they didn't pass any of that savings on to their customers, but raised prices?

So, even if we grant there are 23% taxes applied to things before they're on market (which is obviously not true), if you tax that tax away, the very real effect is that the companies simply raise the price to that level; after all, prices are set by what the market will bear, so they'd be idiots not to.

516 Obdicut  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 6:59:34am

re: #513 rwdflynavy

I'm sorry, how was my extremely long post 'simple'?

That last paragraph rebuts absolutely nothing that I said. I didn't talk about their 23% vs 30% bullshit, I addressed the other aspects of the Fair Tax.

517 Killgore Trout  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 6:59:43am

re: #511 sattv4u2

They are 100% wrong on their "facts"


No they aren't. It's nonsense. It has been looked at and the fair Tax is complete libertarian snake oil. It will not work. It's Paulian quackery.

518 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 7:00:14am

re: #517 Killgore Trout

No they aren't. It's nonsense. It has been looked at and the fair Tax is complete libertarian snake oil. It will not work. It's Paulian quackery.

So, all tax is collected by retailers?

519 sattv4u2  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 7:00:32am

re: #515 Obdicut

What taxes placed on it prior to sale

During the manufacturing, transportation, storage and distribution of a product before it hits a shelf all those stops are taxed in one way or another

It would eliminate all those taxes along the way

520 sattv4u2  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 7:02:51am

re: #517 Killgore Trout

No they aren't. It's nonsense. It has been looked at and the fair Tax is complete libertarian snake oil. It will not work. It's Paulian quackery.

It wasn't introduced by a "Paulian"

It 1st surfaced in 1999 (well before "Paulians) by John Linder

521 Killgore Trout  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 7:03:33am

re: #518 ggt

So, all tax is collected by retailers?

Yup. It would also require that the government track all those transactions to avoid tax fraud. The whole thing is insane. The original Fair Tax proposal came from the Church of Scientology to fight a war to eliminate the IRS.

522 sattv4u2  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 7:03:40am

Sorry ,,, but BBL

523 Obdicut  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 7:03:57am

re: #517 Killgore Trout

No they aren't. It's nonsense. It has been looked at and the fair Tax is complete libertarian snake oil. It will not work. It's Paulian quackery.

Even the Von Mises institute has people critical of the Fair Tax. It's honestly one of the most idiotic fiscal ideas ever proposed in a serious manner.

[Link: mises.org...]

Most of the article is idiotic too, but this bit is spot on:


Although the FairTax would eliminate the filing of all individual tax returns, the FairTax turns every business into a tax collector. Every small service business and every Internet business that does not currently collect state sales taxes will have to collect taxes for the federal government. Every doctor will now have to charge sales tax on his services. Where will this end? Will the neighborhood boy who mows lawns have to begin collecting federal sales tax on each lawn mowed? Will the neighborhood girl who baby sits have to do likewise?
524 Unions = Innovation slash slash  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 7:04:46am

re: #521 Killgore Trout

Yup. It would also require that the government track all those transactions to avoid tax fraud. The whole thing is insane. The original Fair Tax proposal came from the Church of Scientology to fight a war to eliminate the IRS.

Snake oil, check. Paulian, check. Church of Scientology, check.

That ought to do it.

What do 9/11 truthers think of it?
//

525 Obdicut  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 7:04:54am

re: #519 sattv4u2

What taxes placed on it prior to sale

During the manufacturing, transportation, storage and distribution of a product before it hits a shelf all those stops are taxed in one way or another

It would eliminate all those taxes along the way

And all of those magically add up to 23% for everything? Come on. You're not that gullible, are you?

And why ignore that in the real-world example of airline tickets, the price did not drop when the tax was removed? Why ignore the other cases where that's true?

Because it's convenient, I guess.

526 Killgore Trout  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 7:06:14am

re: #520 sattv4u2

It wasn't introduced by a "Paulian"

It 1st surfaced in 1999 (well before "Paulians) by John Linder

Scientology's Fair Tax Plot
by Bruce Bartlett.

The story of the FairTax's provenance is one that I can tell with some firsthand knowledge. In 1993, fresh from a stint at the Treasury Department, I spent a few months at the Cato Institute. I was filling in for Steve Moore - now an editorial writer at The Wall Street Journal - who took a brief leave from his job as director of the think tank's fiscal studies program to advise former Texas Representative Dick Armey. It was there that I was visited by a man named Steven L. Hayes, the founder of group called Citizens for an Alternative Tax System (CATS) that promoted the NRST, and who was, as Moore pointed out to me, a prominent Scientologist.

It wasn't hard to figure out the Scientologists' motives for hawking the NRST. The IRS had refused to recognize Scientology as a legitimate church - a fact that seemed to enshrine their popular reputation as a "cult." To remedy this situation, Scientologists waged war against the IRS. At various points, the Church attempted to infiltrate the tax authority and even hired private investigators to examine the private lives of IRS officials. And the same impulse behind these measures led them to devise the NRST. One church spokesman told National Journal's Paul Starobin, "We thought, If this [discrimination] is happening to us, there must be a lot of people to whom this is happening.' ... How could some positive changes be made?" Since nearly every state has a sales tax, it would be a simple matter to get them to collect a federal NRST, rendering the IRS instantly superfluous, a ripe target for abolition.

527 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 7:07:08am

re: #521 Killgore Trout

Yup. It would also require that the government track all those transactions to avoid tax fraud. The whole thing is insane. The original Fair Tax proposal came from the Church of Scientology to fight a war to eliminate the IRS.

Put the burden on retailers --

Yeah, I'm not thinking this is a good idea.

Sounds like more of a mess than the IRS.

528 Killgore Trout  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 7:07:37am

re: #524 rwdflynavy

What do 9/11 truthers think of it?

It's very popular with the Alex Jones/gold standard crowd. Infowars used to run banner ads for Fair Tax.

529 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 7:07:49am

re: #525 Obdicut

And all of those magically add up to 23% for everything? Come on. You're not that gullible, are you?

And why ignore that in the real-world example of airline tickets, the price did not drop when the tax was removed? Why ignore the other cases where that's true?

Because it's convenient, I guess.

Prices would go up just for the "pain-in-the-ass" factor for retailers.

530 Unions = Innovation slash slash  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 7:08:18am

re: #528 Killgore Trout

It's very popular with the Alex Jones/gold standard crowd. Infowars used to run banner ads for Fair Tax.

I heard Gates of Vienna love it too!

Later lizards.

531 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 7:12:07am

re: #519 sattv4u2

What taxes placed on it prior to sale

During the manufacturing, transportation, storage and distribution of a product before it hits a shelf all those stops are taxed in one way or another

It would eliminate all those taxes along the way

Bullshit. Every time money changes hands someone (usually more than one someones) gets a cut of it. The gubernet always has it's hand out.

It's a rule.

532 darthstar  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 7:13:24am

Mornin' everyone...home again. It's nice to wake up in your own bed...though we did have comfy digs in Santa Fe. Managed to smooth-talk free 1st class upgrades for my wife and I from Dallas to San Francisco, which put a nice cap on the week (bought our tix through expedia - and those are usually so restricted getting a seat not next to the toilet is impossible). Almost time to go get the dogs, then have a lazy Sunday letting them run around on the beach.

Tomorrow, work...and it's going to be a shitty week for me based on the emails I got Friday...but today I relax.

533 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 7:14:19am

I made a pages post, but it got eaten by the intertoobs.

534 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 7:15:21am

I can just imagine all the "wholesalers" that would finagle their way into business.

Way to may loopholes.

535 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 7:15:41am

re: #533 ggt

I made a pages post, but it got eaten by the intertoobs.

I made one because you said I should.

536 Obdicut  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 7:15:49am

re: #527 ggt

The Fair Tax deals very badly with a lot of sales. At what point is the tax collected? Only when it reaches an end user? How can you tell if it's an end-user, and not a reseller? If someone buys some lumber, we have to track whether he uses that lumber himself or resells it. What a goddamn headache.

537 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 7:17:58am

re: #536 Obdicut

The Fair Tax deals very badly with a lot of sales. At what point is the tax collected? Only when it reaches an end user? How can you tell if it's an end-user, and not a reseller? If someone buys some lumber, we have to track whether he uses that lumber himself or resells it. What a goddamn headache.

I"m not getting why this is supposed to be simpler than the IRS.

I think people need a periodic "reckoning".

It's important.

538 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 7:18:36am

re: #535 Cannadian Club Akbar

I made one because you said I should.

Now, if my kid and hubby would do what I say they should . . . .

539 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 7:19:10am

outtie.

540 Shiplord Kirel  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 7:19:17am

It's important to remember just what it is creationists are claiming when they try to insinuate their beliefs into the science curriculum. They go beyond asserting that their superstitions are true and claim that there is actual, objective, scientific evidence for this.
This is nonsense, of course, but it is the crucial basis for their insistence on including their beliefs in science instruction.They are being inconsistent at best in making this claim, then demanding a First Amendment based religious protection for it.

541 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 7:20:36am

re: #533 ggt

I made a pages post, but it got eaten by the intertoobs.

Naw, it didn't get eated. I just need to pay more attention.

542 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 7:23:31am

Now, if everyone had to file a return documenting everything they earned --capital gains and all. and the same percentage was taken from everyone that MIGHT be considered a fair tax.

543 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 7:24:29am

I still don't get how corporations are taxed under this weird proposed system.

544 eneri  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 7:29:21am

I have said I teach history, not mythology.

545 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 7:33:33am

Have a Great Day all!

546 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 7:36:37am

Forget about the fair tax. What about the flat tax? That one also seems to be popular with libertarians. Anyone have any experience reports from countries who have instated that?

547 Obdicut  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 7:39:29am

re: #546 000G

Forget about the fair tax. What about the flat tax? That one also seems to be popular with libertarians. Anyone have any experience reports from countries who have instated that?

They're basically the same thing, except the flat tax is just a flat tax on income rather than a sales tax.

It's also massively regressive and rather puzzling as a proposal. I guess it takes advantage of how many people just don't understand progressive taxation.

548 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 7:41:54am

re: #547 Obdicut

They're basically the same thing, except the flat tax is just a flat tax on income rather than a sales tax.

It's also massively regressive and rather puzzling as a proposal. I guess it takes advantage of how many people just don't understand progressive taxation.

Well... other than the fair tax, it seems to have been implemented in several jurisdictions, interestinglye enough lots of them countries from the former Eastern bloc: [Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

Was wondering how that has been working out for people there.

Mises Libertarians don't like either: [Link: mises.org...]

549 Obdicut  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 7:45:01am

re: #548 000G

Most of them aren't actually flat taxation systems. Most have other paycheck taxes, sales taxes, VAT, etc. making up the difference.

[Link: transitioneconomies.blogspot.com...]

Economic performance in those countries is also hard to measure, since they have high indexes of corruption, a ton of emigration, etc.

550 im_gumby_damnit  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 8:01:10am

If we're going to be intellectually honest about this, a teacher condemning creationism as superstition is no better than a teacher preaching that the fossil record supporting evolution is the work of the devil. Neither politics nor religion have any place in a state sponsored school that children are required to attend.

That being said, a lawsuit about this incident is silly. It should have been handled by the principal.

551 Killgore Trout  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 8:01:11am

Ed Morrisey is having fantasies this morning: What if Obama quit?
Heh.

552 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 8:06:01am

re: #551 Killgore Trout

Ed Morrisey is having fantasies this morning: What if Obama quit?
Heh.

It's the sequel to the "What if Hillary or some other Democrat challenged him as a nominee for 2012" fantasy.

553 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 8:07:17am

re: #549 Obdicut

Economic performance in those countries is also hard to measure, since they have high indexes of corruption, a ton of emigration, etc.

So, you're saying it would be hard to measure performance here?
/

554 Obdicut  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 8:10:21am

re: #550 im_gumby_damnit

If we're going to be intellectually honest about this, a teacher condemning creationism as superstition is no better than a teacher preaching that the fossil record supporting evolution is the work of the devil.

Except the former statement is true, and the latter, at best, wildly speculative with no possible proof.

555 Killgore Trout  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 8:10:36am

re: #552 000G

It's the sequel to the "What if Hillary or some other Democrat challenged him as a nominee for 2012" fantasy.

It seems pretty silly. Obama's numbers are tied to the economy. I suppose there is some danger if things continue to go to shit but so far Republicans are declining in popularity faster than Obama. Ed is also fantasizing about Republicans sweeping the senate which seems unlikely to me. I think there's a chance they may even lose the House.

556 Shiplord Kirel  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 8:14:45am

re: #550 im_gumby_damnit

If we're going to be intellectually honest about this, a teacher condemning creationism as superstition is no better than a teacher preaching that the fossil record supporting evolution is the work of the devil. Neither politics nor religion have any place in a state sponsored school that children are required to attend.

That being said, a lawsuit about this incident is silly. It should have been handled by the principal.

There is no equivalence between those two statements. The first is a statement supporting science, the second is purely a religious statement, and a violation of the First Amendment. Rejecting the claims of creationists by pointing out that they are teaching religion is not the same as rejecting science on religious grounds.

557 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 8:15:39am

re: #554 Obdicut

Wow. I'm feelin' the hate.

558 Obdicut  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 8:18:33am

re: #557 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

What hate?

559 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 8:19:21am

re: #554 Obdicut

Except the former statement is true, and the latter, at best, wildly speculative with no possible proof.

Reminds me of the atheist sentiment that all religion is essentially superstition.

560 Shiplord Kirel  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 8:19:55am

re: #557 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Wow. I'm feelin' the hate.

So, FBV, do you think creationists should have religious protection for a belief that they, themselves, claim is not religion?

561 Shiplord Kirel  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 8:23:38am

re: #559 000G

Reminds me of the atheist sentiment that all religion is essentially superstition.

If you're an atheist it is.

562 Varek Raith  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 8:24:22am

re: #559 000G

Reminds me of the atheist sentiment that all religion is essentially superstition.

It is.
;)

563 Obdicut  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 8:25:29am

re: #559 000G

Reminds me of the atheist sentiment that all religion is essentially superstition.

Religious statements about the physical world which are demonstrably wrong are, to me, superstitioun. Religious statements which are simply impossible to prove aren't.

564 Shiplord Kirel  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 8:26:35am

If the principal wants to tell the teacher that "superstitious nonsense" is too harsh, that is a different issue. The attempt to portray it as an attack on freedom of religion is simply a dishonest attempt at intimidation.

565 im_gumby_damnit  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 8:29:19am

re: #556 Shiplord Kirel

You miss my point. I'm not advocating either statement.

My point is that there are people who strongly believe as a matter of faith that god created the earth. It is not the place of a high school teacher to demean the faith of any student as "superstition" any more than it is his place to teach creationsim as "fact."

566 Varek Raith  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 8:32:18am
Corbett told his students that “real” scientists try to disprove the theory of evolution. “Contrast that with creationists,” he told his students. “They never try to disprove creationism. They’re all running around trying to prove it. That’s deduction. It’s not science. Scientifically, it’s nonsense.”
567 Shiplord Kirel  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 8:32:43am

re: #565 im_gumby_damnit

You miss my point. I'm not advocating either statement.

My point is that there are people who strongly believe as a matter of faith that god created the earth. It is not the place of a high school teacher to demean the faith of any student as "superstition" any more than it is his place to teach creationsim as "fact."

But that's not what creationism is, in terms of its presence in government operated schools. Its proponents claim that is a matter of science rather than of faith. Fundamentalist quacks invented the whole pseudoscience of "creation science" specifically because they were ready to concede that religious ideas did not have equal footing with science in public school instruction.

568 Political Atheist  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 8:33:31am

Just in after hearing another report on this-And still wrapping my head around a (to me) brand new news item-

The take I heard on network news radio is the Teacher had no expectation of a violation given the nature of the "provocative discussion" and so had immunity.

But Charles seems to be taking this past the law that calls for neutrality in these matters. He seems to be calling for an OK for teachers to dispute religious teachings in class.

Have I got that wrong?

569 Varek Raith  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 8:34:35am

re: #568 Rightwingconspirator

Just in after hearing another report on this-And still wrapping my head around a (to me) brand new news item-

The take I heard on network news radio is the Teacher had no expectation of a violation given the nature of the "provocative discussion" and so had immunity.

But Charles seems to be taking this past the law that calls for neutrality in these matters. He seems to be calling for an OK for teachers to dispute religious teachings in class.

Have I got that wrong?

See my 566.
What the teacher state stated is a fact.

570 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 8:35:05am

re: #561 Shiplord Kirel

If you're an atheist it is.

It also reminds me of how a lot of Christian churches are quick to call out other religions (especially animistic or shamanistic ones) for being superstitious. Atheists usually smirk and giggle at those statements.

571 im_gumby_damnit  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 8:35:11am

re: #554 Obdicut

That's what you believe -- i.e., that religion = superstition. There are others who disagree with you as a matter of religious faith.

In public schools funded by taxpayers with these differing views that children are compelled to attend, should we have teachers lecturing that Christianity or Islam or Buddhism is truth? Should we have teachers lecturing that religion is "superstition"?

How will we decide which view is taught? By majority vote? I think you would probably be unhappy with that outcome.

572 Political Atheist  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 8:36:31am

re: #569 Varek Raith

Not exactly "neutral" then. Reminds me a a person (not saying criminal here) that acts in good faith yet did break the law.

Isn't that what happened?

573 im_gumby_damnit  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 8:36:59am

re: #567 Shiplord Kirel

Again, you miss my point. I don't believe creationism should be taught in school. I also don't believe that teachers should be advocating to students that religion is superstition.

574 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 8:37:40am

re: #563 Obdicut

Religious statements about the physical world which are demonstrably wrong are, to me, superstitioun. Religious statements which are simply impossible to prove aren't.

That kind of goes into a whole snake nest of what constitutes proof. Science and religion have very different concepts of "proof" and address very different (to the point of being incommensurable) human experiences.

575 im_gumby_damnit  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 8:38:21am

re: #564 Shiplord Kirel

I totally agree with that approach.

576 Political Atheist  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 8:40:29am

re: #571 im_gumby_damnit

Religions specific beliefs are for religious classes. Public schools need to leave all that alone as out of their venue. Not embrace, not attack, IMO.

#569 Varek Raith

Are you saying the mere presence of these facts as espoused by the teacher overrules the neutrality requirement in the establishment clause?

577 Varek Raith  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 8:40:30am

re: #574 000G

That kind of goes into a whole snake nest of what constitutes proof. Science and religion have very different concepts of "proof" and address very different (to the point of being incommensurable) human experiences.

Except when creationist's nonsense intrudes on science.
The earth is 6000 years old. Nope, science can prove otherwise. If the creationist would stop trying to destroy science with their faith, I'd be more inclined to just ignore them.

578 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 8:42:59am

re: #577 Varek Raith

Except when creationist's nonsense intrudes on science.
The earth is 6000 years old. Nope, science can prove otherwise. If the creationist would stop trying to destroy science with their faith, I'd be more inclined to just ignore them.

Well, yes, this is because a very specific brand of religion makes assertions based on a very literal reading of certain popular religious texts regarding features of reality that in today's societies usually are reserved for empirical sciences.

Totalitarian religion, if you will.

579 im_gumby_damnit  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 8:45:16am

Sorry to stir the pot and then bail, but if I don't get some coffee (and a lot of it), my head is going to implode.

Enjoyed the debate. Have a good one.

580 Obdicut  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 8:45:40am

re: #571 im_gumby_damnit

That's what you believe -- i.e., that religion = superstition. There are others who disagree with you as a matter of religious faith.

Yes. As a matter of religious faith, many people disagree with empirical reality. That doesn't really matter one whit to empirical reality. I'm not sure why you think it does.

In public schools funded by taxpayers with these differing views that children are compelled to attend, should we have teachers lecturing that Christianity or Islam or Buddhism is truth?

No.

Should we have teachers lecturing that religion is "superstition"?

Depends what your definition of superstition is. Certain religious beliefs are. What's your definition of superstition?

How will we decide which view is taught? By majority vote? I think you would probably be unhappy with that outcome.

We should decide that the view that religious, non-scientific, superstitious explanations for scientific phenomena should not be taught, and scientific explanations should.

What are you having a problem with, in that regard?

581 Killgore Trout  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 8:46:27am

Fox News continuing coverage of Obama's outrageous vacation....
Obama, Family Head to Beach on Martha's Vineyard

582 Obdicut  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 8:46:57am

re: #574 000G

That kind of goes into a whole snake nest of what constitutes proof. Science and religion have very different concepts of "proof" and address very different (to the point of being incommensurable) human experiences.

Yes, that is, in fact, my point. Religious explanations for physical phenomena are non-scientific, and they should be called such. "Superstition" is one word for that-- when you think that something has an effect on the real world, but it actually doesn't.

583 Shiplord Kirel  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 8:47:53am

re: #573 im_gumby_damnit

Again, you miss my point. I don't believe creationism should be taught in school. I also don't believe that teachers should be advocating to students that religion is superstition.

To the best of my understanding, the teacher was not making a general statement about religion. If we are going to reject creationism in science classes, it is incumbent on us to provide an explanation, ie that is a religious belief. "Superstition" is simply a harsher expression of that, implying an especially primitive and rationally unwarranted belief. Creationism, based on a primitive and theologically nonsensical interpretation of scripture, could fairly be described as such.

584 Obdicut  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 8:48:32am

re: #579 im_gumby_damnit

Sorry to stir the pot and then bail, but if I don't get some coffee (and a lot of it), my head is going to implode.

Enjoyed the debate. Have a good one.

Next time try to make an actual point. In this case, all you did was say that because religious people think that their religion is true, a science teacher shouldn't point out that it's not true.

That would leave us with exactly nothing to teach in science class, since there are animist and other explanations for all physical phenomena.

If all you're saying is that by saying 'superstitious' as a pejorative the teacher is being mean, it's true, but a nicer way of phrasing it still is going to say the religious belief is simply untrue.

585 jaunte  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 8:48:47am

re: #581 Killgore Trout

The beach in August... have they no shame?

586 Varek Raith  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 8:48:49am

re: #581 Killgore Trout

Fox News continuing coverage of Obama's outrageous vacation...
Obama, Family Head to Beach on Martha's Vineyard



Romney To Quadruple Size Of $12 Million California Home
*Crickets*
:)

587 Political Atheist  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 8:49:05am

re: #577 Varek Raith

It still appears to me this was a violation of the clause, but in this particular circumstance the teacher has immunity. Are my facts wrong?

588 Varek Raith  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 8:51:39am

re: #587 Rightwingconspirator

It still appears to me this was a violation of the clause, but in this particular circumstance the teacher has immunity. Are my facts wrong?

Oy.

Corbett told his students that “real” scientists try to disprove the theory of evolution. “Contrast that with creationists,” he told his students. “They never try to disprove creationism. They’re all running around trying to prove it. That’s deduction. It’s not science. Scientifically, it’s nonsense.”


How is the above a violation? Are we to punish teachers that say the earth isn't 6000 years old? Or that we evolved from simians?

589 Winny Spencer  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 8:51:51am

re: #581 Killgore Trout

Fox News continuing coverage of Obama's outrageous vacation...
Obama, Family Head to Beach on Martha's Vineyard

Too darn predictable; this is the latest comment:

"Where are all of those New England sharks when we need them?????"

Sigh.

590 Obdicut  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 8:52:36am

re: #587 Rightwingconspirator

It still appears to me this was a violation of the clause, but in this particular circumstance the teacher has immunity. Are my facts wrong?

Yes. If it were a violation, he would not have immunity.

the teacher was entitled to immunity because it was not clearly established in the law that a teacher’s expression of hostility to certain religious beliefs in a public school classroom would violate the First Amendment’s establishment clause.

They're saying that it's not established that it is a violation, and we've never treated it as a violation.

I'm getting a little confused about what people think that the teacher should have said instead. Superstition bothers people, okay. How should he describe creationism?

591 Varek Raith  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 8:53:40am

I apologize for my harshness. This issue gets me fired up more than most.

592 Shiplord Kirel  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 8:53:55am

If the teacher had said that the Resurrection of Jesus Christ was superstitious nonsense, I would have a problem with it. Believers aren't claiming that the Resurrection should be included as fact in, say, the history curriculum. At least they aren't bringing a huge amount of pressure to do so. Creationism is the object of much political and social pressure to include it in the science curriculum.

593 Political Atheist  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 8:53:55am

re: #588 Varek Raith

No, we would simply enforce the neutrality rule in the establishment clause. Teaching all the science you want and leaving religious aspects out as inappropriate given that law.

Do you oppose the neutrality requirement? I'm getting the impression that is where this topic really went, albeit with only a 30 minute or so look at a big thread on a big topic.

594 Obdicut  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 8:55:33am

re: #593 Rightwingconspirator

The neutral view is inherently critical of religious claims, though. It can't be otherwise.

If a religion claims something that is contradicted by physical reality, by science, then it is 'neutral' to teach against that claim in science class. Science teaches science. It doesn't teach science hedged about so as not to offend religion.

595 Varek Raith  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 8:56:20am

re: #593 Rightwingconspirator

No, we would simply enforce the neutrality rule in the establishment clause. Teaching all the science you want and leaving religious aspects out as inappropriate given that law.

Do you oppose the neutrality requirement? I'm getting the impression that is where this topic really went, albeit with only a 30 minute or so look at a big thread on a big topic.

But you can't remain neutral on some things in science. The earth is 4.5 billion years old. Fact. You can't stay neutral on that when a kid firmly believes it's 6000 years old. Is the teacher to just side step that and do a disservice to the rest of the class?

596 aagcobb  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 8:57:09am

re: #587 Rightwingconspirator

It still appears to me this was a violation of the clause, but in this particular circumstance the teacher has immunity. Are my facts wrong?

The 9th Circuit did not decide the issue of whether the teacher's statement was a constitutional violation, because it decided he was immune from suit.

597 Achilles Tang  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 8:57:55am

re: #574 000G

That kind of goes into a whole snake nest of what constitutes proof. Science and religion have very different concepts of "proof" and address very different (to the point of being incommensurable) human experiences.

There are many religious believers who don't have a problem with science and who would also consider creationism, as we are talking of it, to be superstition. Although if they wanted to be nice they might call it simple ignorance.

The Catholic church, which I believe has more members than all the other Christian sects combined, does not promote pretend science creationism. Therefore to call creationism superstition is not an attack on "religion", it is an attack on some ignorant people (and we need to bear Muslims in mind in this context too).

598 Shiplord Kirel  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 8:58:33am

re: #595 Varek Raith

But you can't remain neutral on some things in science. The earth is 4.5 billion years old. Fact. You can't stay neutral on that when a kid firmly believes it's 6000 years old. Is the teacher to just side step that and do a disservice to the rest of the class?

Yes. By the creationists' own admission, creationism is a claim about science and can therefore be fairly addressed in science class, that is, rejected as nonsense.

599 darthstar  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 8:59:10am

re: #588 Varek Raith

Oy.


How is the above a violation? Are we to punish teachers that say the earth isn't 6000 years old? Or that we evolved from simians?

Clearly, the fundamentalists have yet to evolve. They were intelligently designed, but manufactured poorly.

600 Varek Raith  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 8:59:11am

PI IS 3!
NOTHING MORE THAN 3!!!!!
/I feel better.

601 Political Atheist  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 8:59:38am

re: #590 Obdicut

Your confusion is easily resolved. He should not address creationism. That leaves the neutrality law intact, and the science lessons intact and expropriate. Once you show the science and tech it's implications for how to continue study in these sciences the teaching job is done. There is no inherent need to get into religious beliefs. A better approach IMO.

On the possible violation-And lets remember a lower judge saw it differently. If this were so easily cut and dried we would see a consistent set of rulings on up the chain. Until some higher court refuses to hear it to let the previous ruling stand.

602 im_gumby_damnit  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 9:00:16am

re: #580 Obdicut

To make sure I am framing this discussion correctly, I am not advocating in favor of a particular religious faith or against atheism. That is not my point. My point is that a public school system must remain neutral on the subject. Otherwise, you will always end up with the majority imposing its views on the minority.

Also, make sure you read the teacher's entire commentary on the subject. He went beyond creationism to challenge religion as a whole (e.g, calling the suggestion that god exists "nonsense").

I believe you can teach the science of how the world was formed and species evolved without spinning off into a diatribe about how "god is dead." I don't think that is any more appropriate than a lecture on how god exists.

603 Achilles Tang  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 9:01:46am

re: #600 Varek Raith

PI IS 3!
NOTHING MORE THAN 3!!!
/I feel better.

I forget who, but I do believe that a king/emperor in the distant past had problems with decimals and decreed that PI was indeed 3.

604 Political Atheist  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 9:01:49am

Obdicut-
Please substitute appropriate for expropriate in my 601.

605 darthstar  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 9:01:50am

re: #600 Varek Raith

PI IS 3!
NOTHING MORE THAN 3!!!
/I feel better.

[Link: 3.141592653589793238462643383279502884197169399375105820974944592.com...]

606 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 9:02:29am

re: #582 Obdicut

Yes, that is, in fact, my point. Religious explanations for physical phenomena are non-scientific, and they should be called such. "Superstition" is one word for that-- when you think that something has an effect on the real world, but it actually doesn't.

Superstition is a slur, though. Also, "science" is quite an encompassing term. Maybe too wide. Were scientists in previous ages superstitious just because their theories have been found to be false or are obsolete now (ether theory comes to mind), for instance?

Apropos regarding that and another comment you made previously: Do you hold political advertising to be superstitious as well?

607 Political Atheist  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 9:02:53am

re: #605 darthstar

[Link: 3.141592653589793238462643383279502884197169399375 105820974944592.com...]

Stop that your gonna ruin my shiny new computer with Pi...
/// (Star Trek ref)

608 aagcobb  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 9:03:06am

re: #603 Naso Tang

I forget who, but I do believe that a king/emperor in the distant past had problems with decimals and decreed that PI was indeed 3.

I recall I read a claim that the Indiana State legislature passed a bill decreeing that Pi=3. I checked on the claim, and if I recall correctly, such a bill was filed but not enacted.

609 Varek Raith  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 9:03:18am

re: #602 im_gumby_damnit

No.

“Aristotle … argued, you know, there sort of has to be a God. Of course that’s nonsense,” Corbett said according to a transcript of his lecture. “I mean, that’s what you call deductive reasoning, you know. And you hear it all the time with people who say, ‘Well, if all this stuff that makes up the universe is here, something must have created it.’ Faulty logic. Very faulty logic.”

Context.

610 Obdicut  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 9:03:27am

re: #601 Rightwingconspirator

Your confusion is easily resolved. He should not address creationism.

So when a kid brings it up, he should ignore him? Stick his fingers in his ears?

By teaching evolution is true, and is the correct explanation, he is addressing creationism. He is saying that it's wrong. To not directly say that seems to me abso-fucking-lutely bizarre. Why on earth do you think that's a good solution?

"Evolution is the explanation for biological diversity. That is why we see animals in the forms we do, adapted to their environments."

"I was told it was creationism. I'm confused. Can you help me learn?"

"No. I can just repeat what I've said. Evolution is the true theory that explains diversity."

"So is creationism false? It makes a different claim."

"I can't tell you."

How does that make sense?

If this were so easily cut and dried we would see a consistent set of rulings on up the chain.

Can you find any case ever where any teacher has been sanctioned for criticizing religious beliefs of a student in science class?

I don't think your theory that if something gets ruled a different way by a lower court it automatically means there's some actual real argument is a good one, either. It doesn't make any obvious sense to me.

611 Henchman Ghazi-808  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 9:03:37am

I'm struck by the irony of how atheists are approached as members of a competing religion.

612 Varek Raith  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 9:03:41am

re: #605 darthstar

[Link: 3.141592653589793238462643383279502884197169399375 105820974944592.com...]

LIES

613 jaunte  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 9:04:35am

re: #611 BigPapa

"Faulty logic. Very faulty logic.”

614 Achilles Tang  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 9:04:38am

re: #602 im_gumby_damnit

I think we all agree that religion should not be debated, or taught, in school. The issue here is that this aspect of religion, creationism, does not claim to be faith based. It claims to be science, and is therefore open to the same critique and even ridicule as science is.

615 darthstar  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 9:04:53am

re: #611 BigPapa

I'm struck by the irony of how atheists are approached as members of a competing religion.

Yes, but it's not tax exempt.

616 Obdicut  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 9:05:26am

re: #602 im_gumby_damnit

To make sure I am framing this discussion correctly, I am not advocating in favor of a particular religious faith or against atheism. That is not my point. My point is that a public school system must remain neutral on the subject. Otherwise, you will always end up with the majority imposing its views on the minority.

Which is exactly what I've addressed.

Also, make sure you read the teacher's entire commentary on the subject. He went beyond creationism to challenge religion as a whole (e.g, calling the suggestion that god exists "nonsense").

Then talk about that claim, and not what you previously did.

I believe you can teach the science of how the world was formed and species evolved without spinning off into a diatribe about how "god is dead."

Which is not what happened, even if he said the suggestion god exists was 'nonsense'. Why are you now resorting to hyperbole?

I don't think that is any more appropriate than a lecture on how god exists.

Reading Daniel Dennett's "Darwin's Dangerous Idea" in science class, which, among other things, shows that there is never an actual need to resort to a religious explanation of any real-world phenomena, would be perfectly appropriate.

Reading the bible would not.

Do you understand that?

617 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 9:05:50am

re: #597 Naso Tang

The Catholic church, which I believe has more members than all the other Christian sects combined, does not promote pretend science creationism. Therefore to call creationism superstition is not an attack on "religion", it is an attack on some ignorant people (and we need to bear Muslims in mind in this context too).

Well, a lot of people would also attack the Catholic Church for being superstitious, e.g. for its institutionalizing and "fact-checking" lots of supposed miracles around the world.

But, alas, I gotta run. Later, lizards!

618 Varek Raith  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 9:05:55am

re: #615 darthstar

Yes, but it's not tax exempt.

I DEMAND TAX EXEMPT STATUS AS MY OWN ATHEIST TEMPLE!!!

619 aagcobb  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 9:07:04am

re: #610 Obdicut

Can you find any case ever where any teacher has been sanctioned for criticizing religious beliefs of a student in science class?

The 9th Circuit couldn't find such a case, which is why they held the teacher had qualified immunity.

620 jaunte  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 9:07:10am

re: #618 Varek Raith

Science says you don't have enough votes to make that happen.

621 Varek Raith  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 9:07:17am

re: #617 000G

Well, a lot of people would also attack the Catholic Church for being superstitious, e.g. for its institutionalizing and "fact-checking" lots of supposed miracles around the world.

But, alas, I gotta run. Later, lizards!

They can do that all they please.
As long as they don't force it on science.

622 Achilles Tang  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 9:07:21am

re: #606 000G

Were scientists in previous ages superstitious just because their theories have been found to be false or are obsolete now (ether theory Dark Matter/Energy comes to mind), for instance?

FTFY

623 Obdicut  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 9:07:35am

re: #602 im_gumby_damnit

Ah, I see that you willfully misrepresented what the teacher said. Nice.

“Aristotle … argued, you know, there sort of has to be a God. Of course that’s nonsense,” Corbett said according to a transcript of his lecture. “I mean, that’s what you call deductive reasoning, you know. And you hear it all the time with people who say, ‘Well, if all this stuff that makes up the universe is here, something must have created it.’ Faulty logic. Very faulty logic.”

What you claimed he said:

calling the suggestion that god exists "nonsense").

Can you explain why you distorted what the teacher said so badly? Do you get that the claim that god must exist, and that god does exist, are wildly, wildly different claims?

624 Varek Raith  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 9:07:50am

re: #620 jaunte

Science says you don't have enough votes to make that happen.

Every atom in my body gets a separate vote.
I win!
:)

625 Political Atheist  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 9:08:12am

re: #610 Obdicut

The answer is that "we do not address religious beliefs in my classroom." Period. Teachers have to live with the rules. Many schools say "teach don't touch". Not even to comfort a crying youth. The rules are there for good reason.

626 darthstar  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 9:09:14am

re: #610 Obdicut

It's simple, really. You have a final exam in science class with one question:

Evolution or Creationism?

Students who circle evolution pass, and go on to earn higher degrees and get careers in medicine, chemistry, etc. Students who circle creationism fail, get a social promotion to the next grade, take history classes and fail those because the Emancipation Proclamation isn't in the bible, and become experts on science as interviewed by Fox News.

627 Winny Spencer  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 9:09:16am

So the same crowd who has deemed Mittens boring and wooden is now urging Paul Ryan to run? Mind is blown.

628 Obdicut  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 9:09:56am

re: #625 Rightwingconspirator

The answer is that "we do not address religious beliefs in my classroom."

But that's a lie. Why should he lie to his students?

By telling them that evolution is the real explanation for diversity, he is directly contradicting creationism. He is addressing, and dismissing that belief. He's just not naming it.

So, saying that he's not addressing the belief is, in fact, not true. And any intelligent student will know that.

"Evolution is true" means "Creationism is false".

629 aagcobb  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 9:10:11am

re: #625 Rightwingconspirator

The answer is that "we do not address religious beliefs in my classroom." Period. Teachers have to live with the rules. Many schools say "teach don't touch". Not even to comfort a crying youth. The rules are there for good reason.

He was teaching AP European History, a college level course. I submit that it is impossible to teach the history of Europe at a level sufficient to award college credits without discussing religious beliefs.

630 Varek Raith  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 9:10:54am

re: #627 Winny Spencer

So the same crowd who has deemed Mittens boring and wooden is now urging Paul Ryan to run? Mind is blown.

*Shrugs*
Giuliani is also somewhat popular???
Did, like, they miss 2008 or something?

631 darthstar  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 9:11:44am

re: #627 Winny Spencer

So the same crowd who has deemed Mittens boring and wooden is now urging Paul Ryan to run? Mind is blown.

It would be good for Ryan to run. He needs to have a large chunk of America tell him what a fucking idiot he is.

632 Political Atheist  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 9:12:06am

re: #610 Obdicut

I don't think your theory that if something gets ruled a different way by a lower court it automatically means there's some actual real argument is a good one, either. It doesn't make any obvious sense to me.

That would be proportionate to your respect for the lower court judges. Automatic? No. Presumptive yes, given a modicum of respect for the judge or court, yes indeed.

633 darthstar  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 9:12:20am

re: #624 Varek Raith

Every atom in my body gets a separate vote.
I win!
:)

Except they voted against you.

634 Varek Raith  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 9:13:00am

re: #633 darthstar

Except they voted against you.

We'll see about that.
*Atomizes his atoms*
Wait...
Shit!

635 Shiplord Kirel  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 9:14:18am

This might be as good a time as any to make an announcement I've been planning for several days.

After decades as an aggressive atheist, I have decided to return to the Baptist faith of my youth. I believe, and publicly declare, that Jesus of Nazareth was and is the living son of God, that he has the power to forgive my many sins, and that my acceptance of that truth is the only condition for my salvation.
I cannot hold Him responsible for, and my own soul hostage to, the sinfulness and ignorance of the numerous quacks and hypocrites I have encountered in Christian communities over the years.

How this came about is a long and boring story, but it is true. I am not prepared to argue the specifics just now, and I hope my friends here will respect that.

None of this changes my longstanding view of science or my rejection of creationist pretensions. If anything, it strengthens them. In my view, the creationists and many other fundamentalists are blasphemers as well as liars and charlatans.

636 darthstar  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 9:14:50am

re: #634 Varek Raith

We'll see about that.
*Atomizes his atoms*
Wait...
Shit!

Atomizing one's atoms is akin to splitting an infinitive in grammar, except with more dire consequences.

637 Obdicut  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 9:15:10am

re: #632 Rightwingconspirator

That would be proportionate to your respect for the lower court judges. Automatic? No. Presumptive yes, given a modicum of respect for the judge or court, yes indeed.

Well, I've seen a hell of a lot of dismally stupid rulings in my time. Again: Can you find any precedent whatsoever for a teacher being sanctioned for being critical of religious beliefs? I know that lower court couldn't, because otherwise the upper court would have taken them into consideration.

Do you think a teacher is allowed to tell a student who asks if it's true that tiny aliens have been manipulating evolution for all eternity, nudging genes this way and that to create exactly what they wanted, invisible aliens that cannot be detected, that that is untrue, that there's no evidence for it whatsoever, and that it's flatly contradicted by the theory of evolution?

638 Political Atheist  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 9:15:29am

re: #628 Obdicut

But that's a lie.

A lie? You overstate to say the least. It's a twisted logic that equates compliance with an important legal ruling with a lie.

639 blueraven  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 9:15:30am

re: #625 Rightwingconspirator

The answer is that "we do not address religious beliefs in my classroom." Period. Teachers have to live with the rules. Many schools say "teach don't touch". Not even to comfort a crying youth. The rules are there for good reason.

But they dont claim creationism as merely religious, but rather as a science. So it is entirely appropriate to discuss this in class in those terms.
Especially an advanced "college level" course.

In 1981 the state of Arkansas passed a law, Act 590, mandating that "creation science" be given equal time in public schools with evolution, and defining creation science as positing the "creation of the universe, energy, and life from nothing," as well as explaining the earth’s geology by "the occurrence of a worldwide flood".[105] This was ruled unconstitutional at McLean v. Arkansas in January 1982 as the creationists' methods were not scientific but took the literal wording of the Book of Genesis and attempted to find scientific support for it.[105] Undaunted, Louisiana introduced similar legislation that year. A series of judgments and appeals led to the 1987 Supreme Court ruling in Edwards v. Aguillard that it too violated the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment.[103]

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

640 Obdicut  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 9:15:50am

re: #635 Shiplord Kirel

An it harm none, do what ye will.

641 darthstar  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 9:16:34am

re: #635 Shiplord Kirel

Hell won't be the same without you.

642 Varek Raith  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 9:17:15am

re: #635 Shiplord Kirel

This might be as good a time as any to make an announcement I've been planning for several days.

After decades as an aggressive atheist, I have decided to return to the Baptist faith of my youth. I believe, and publicly declare, that Jesus of Nazareth was and is the living son of God, that he has the power to forgive my many sins, and that my acceptance of that truth is the only condition for my salvation.
I cannot hold Him responsible for, and my own soul hostage to, the sinfulness and ignorance of the numerous quacks and hypocrites I have encountered in Christian communities over the years.

How this came about is a long and boring story, but it is true. I am not prepared to argue the specifics just now, and I hope my friends here will respect that.

None of this changes my longstanding view of science or my rejection of creationist pretensions. If anything, it strengthens them. In my view, the creationists and many other fundamentalists are blasphemers as well as liars and charlatans.

I can respect that.

Though, you'll miss the beer volcano and stripper factory.
:)

643 Four More Tears  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 9:17:44am

re: #635 Shiplord Kirel

This might be as good a time as any to make an announcement I've been planning for several days.

After decades as an aggressive atheist, I have decided to return to the Baptist faith of my youth. I believe, and publicly declare, that Jesus of Nazareth was and is the living son of God, that he has the power to forgive my many sins, and that my acceptance of that truth is the only condition for my salvation.
I cannot hold Him responsible for, and my own soul hostage to, the sinfulness and ignorance of the numerous quacks and hypocrites I have encountered in Christian communities over the years.

How this came about is a long and boring story, but it is true. I am not prepared to argue the specifics just now, and I hope my friends here will respect that.

None of this changes my longstanding view of science or my rejection of creationist pretensions. If anything, it strengthens them. In my view, the creationists and many other fundamentalists are blasphemers as well as liars and charlatans.

APOSTATE!!! YOU SHALL BURN IN A... oh, we don't believe in any of that. Nevermind. Have a good life. :)

644 Varek Raith  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 9:17:46am

re: #641 darthstar

Hell won't be the same without you.

What am I, chopped liver???

645 Achilles Tang  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 9:17:51am

re: #617 000G

Well, a lot of people would also attack the Catholic Church for being superstitious, e.g. for its institutionalizing and "fact-checking" lots of supposed miracles around the world.

But, alas, I gotta run. Later, lizards!

Of course, but they don't claim that is science.

646 Varek Raith  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 9:18:45am

re: #643 JasonA

APOSTATE!!! YOU SHALL BURN IN A... oh, we don't believe in any of that. Nevermind. Have a good life. :)

I do have a bottomless pit of pain and doom in the basement...

647 aagcobb  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 9:19:59am

re: #635 Shiplord Kirel


None of this changes my longstanding view of science or my rejection of creationist pretensions. If anything, it strengthens them. In my view, the creationists and many other fundamentalists are blasphemers as well as liars and charlatans.

I assume you aren't joining a Baptist Church associated with the Southern Baptist Convention, then?

648 Political Atheist  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 9:20:26am

re: #637 Obdicut

Well, I've seen a hell of a lot of dismally stupid rulings in my time. Again: Can you find any precedent whatsoever for a teacher being sanctioned for being critical of religious beliefs? I know that lower court couldn't, because otherwise the upper court would have taken them into consideration.

Do you think a teacher is allowed to tell a student who asks if it's true that tiny aliens have been manipulating evolution for all eternity, nudging genes this way and that to create exactly what they wanted, invisible aliens that cannot be detected, that that is untrue, that there's no evidence for it whatsoever, and that it's flatly contradicted by the theory of evolution?

How many good ruling are you aware of in lower courts? Apparently not many. I was right, this point is proportionate to ones respect for the system.

A teacher is allowed and should to teach the science we have. And your scenario is sufficiently distant from the case at hand I'm tempted to set it aside as a cherry picked scenario, that has nothing to do with the establishment clause. The whole thing is best left to the proper venue. Science is for secular education, bible lessons for bible class. Leave each to its venue as the law seems to call for.

649 ThomasLite  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 9:21:27am

re: #536 Obdicut

The Fair Tax deals very badly with a lot of sales. At what point is the tax collected? Only when it reaches an end user? How can you tell if it's an end-user, and not a reseller? If someone buys some lumber, we have to track whether he uses that lumber himself or resells it. What a goddamn headache.

hi there.
you 'murikans might call that a massive head-ache; us europeans call that daily practice. we collect a 19% sales tax on every transaction, b2b or b2c regardless; one can get a refund (or won't have to pay) from(/to) the tax collection service for up to the amount one has collected himself.

works like a charm, has done so for ages.

not getting into the rest of the fairtax thing here; still not over the glee of having gotten a passing grade in the last mandatory tax law course I'll ever have to take. last thing I want is more fiscal law headaches, haha.

650 darthstar  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 9:21:41am

re: #646 Varek Raith

I do have a bottomless pit of pain and doom in the basement...

How deep is it?

651 Four More Tears  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 9:21:50am

re: #646 Varek Raith

I do have a bottomless pit of pain and doom in the basement...

You're hosting next year's RNC?

652 Varek Raith  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 9:21:57am

Airlines warn of in-flight tears, orgasms

Um...
Okely dokely?

653 Varek Raith  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 9:22:56am

re: #650 darthstar

How deep is it?

I just tossed a rock down it.
I'll let you know when I hear it hit bottom.

re: #651 JasonA

You're hosting next year's RNC?

Some much for secrecy!

654 Varek Raith  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 9:23:20am

re: #653 Varek Raith

I just tossed a rock down it.
I'll let you know when I hear it hit bottom.

re: #651 JasonA

Some much for secrecy!

655 Achilles Tang  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 9:23:26am

re: #635 Shiplord Kirel

Existence is full of surprises, is it not?

656 darthstar  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 9:23:40am

re: #647 aagcobb

I assume you aren't joining a Baptist Church associated with the Southern Baptist Convention, then?

He said "baptist faith"...so I interpret that to mean he once again accepts the concept of salvation, but not any specific church doctrine.

657 Obdicut  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 9:24:55am

re: #648 Rightwingconspirator

How many good ruling are you aware of in lower courts? Apparently not many. I was right, this point is proportionate to ones respect for the system.

No, you weren't right. I know plenty of good rulings from the lower courts as well. I'm not running a statistical analysis. I'm saying that simply because a lower court ruled one way does not mean that, in the end, that ruling is going to have a lot of merit to it.


A teacher is allowed and should to teach the science we have. And your scenario is sufficiently distant from the case at hand I'm tempted to set it aside as a cherry picked scenario, that has nothing to do with the establishment clause.

How on earth is it at all distant?

The whole thing is best left to the proper venue. Science is for secular education, bible lessons for bible class. Leave each to its venue as the law seems to call for.

Exactly. And in secular education, creationism is dismissed as an untrue, unscientifici explanation.

Again: There are religious beliefs about every goddamn physical phenomena on earth. Are we really supposed to avoid teaching anything that contradicts those? Or the teachers are just supposed to deny the flat out contradiction, are supposed to lie to the kids about science contradicting their religion?

Where religion makes claims about the real world, it's going to run afoul of science. That is the whole and meat of it. When it does that, teachers need to say that it isn't true.

Otherwise you get into the "The Norse believed lightning was Thor's anger, and that may be true." idiocy. Or at the very least the buffoonery of "The Norse believed lightning was Thor's anger." "So, is it?" "I can't tell you."

658 Shiplord Kirel  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 9:25:03am

re: #606 000G


re: #647 aagcobb

I assume you aren't joining a Baptist Church associated with the Southern Baptist Convention, then?

Apropos regarding that and another comment you made previously: Do you hold political advertising to be superstitious as well?

Definitely not. It is amazing how far the SBC has drifted from Baptist tradition in just 30 years. Baptists originally championed separation of church and state. This phrase does not appear in the Constitution, as fundamentalists constantly remind us, but it does appear in Baptist literature that pre-dates the Constitution by a hundred years or more. Among Baptists, the liberals are actually the traditionalists, while the crazed power-seeking fundamentalists are the radicals.

659 im_gumby_damnit  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 9:26:20am

re: #623 Obdicut

Ah, I see that you willfully misrepresented what the teacher said. Nice.

What you claimed he said:

Can you explain why you distorted what the teacher said so badly? Do you get that the claim that god must exist, and that god does exist, are wildly, wildly different claims?

Perhaps because I've read about this case and am familiar with the totality of the statements made by the teacher in this lecture. It is clear that he meant it exactly the way I framed it. For example, were you aware that he said "When you put on your Jesus glasses, you can't see the truth"? How about that he said ""When you pray for divine intervention, you're hoping that the spaghetti monster will help you get what you want"?

So when he says, in the same lecture, that "Aristotle … argued, you know, there sort of has to be a God. Of course that’s nonsense," he isn't advocating a point of view on whether God exists?

660 Obdicut  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 9:26:48am

re: #649 ThomasLite


works like a charm, has done so for ages.

Congrats on being the first person ever to call VAT something that works like a charm.

and no, the VAT is not similar to the flat tax. The Flat Tax is meant to be a solely end-user tax. The VAT travels all the way through the supply chain. So it's kind of the opposite of a flat tax.

661 im_gumby_damnit  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 9:28:52am

re: #616 Obdicut

Which is exactly what I've addressed.

Then talk about that claim, and not what you previously did.

Which is not what happened, even if he said the suggestion god exists was 'nonsense'. Why are you now resorting to hyperbole?

Reading Daniel Dennett's "Darwin's Dangerous Idea" in science class, which, among other things, shows that there is never an actual need to resort to a religious explanation of any real-world phenomena, would be perfectly appropriate.

Reading the bible would not.

Do you understand that?

Make sure you get your facts straight about the lecture, then (maybe) we can have an intelligent discourse about whether it was appropriate or not. Thanks!

662 Killgore Trout  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 9:29:01am

Libyan Rebels Capture Major Base Defending Capital (warning: Autoplay video)

Libyan rebels captured a major military base that defends Moammar Gadhafi's stronghold of Tripoli as clashes and protests raged in the streets of the capital on Sunday. The tide of the 6-month-old civil war appeared to be turning quickly against the leader of more than four decades.

As Associated Press reporter with the rebels rapidly advancing toward Tripoli saw them take over the base of the Khamis Brigade, 16 miles west of the capital. After a brief gunbattle, Gadhafi's forces fled what was once a major symbol of the regime's power.

663 aagcobb  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 9:29:10am

re: #659 im_gumby_damnit


So when he says, in the same lecture, that "Aristotle … argued, you know, there sort of has to be a God. Of course that’s nonsense," he isn't advocating a point of view on whether God exists?

The opinion also says the teacher is a Christian who prays and attends church regularly, so I doubt he was advocating a view on the existence of God, but rather, on the quality of Aristotle's argument.

664 Shiplord Kirel  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 9:29:54am

re: #658 Shiplord Kirel

Oops, don't know how the advertising quote got in there. I was going to comment that political advertising is roughly equivalent to snake handling or witch finding in the level of reason employed.

665 Obdicut  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 9:30:01am

re: #659 im_gumby_damnit

Perhaps because I've read about this case and am familiar with the totality of the statements made by the teacher in this lecture. It is clear that he meant it exactly the way I framed it.

Ah, I forget your psychic ability. That explains it.

What he said was that Aristotle's claim that there has to be a god is nonsense. And it is. And you portrayed that as, variously, saying that he'd called the idea god exists nonsense, and that "god is dead". You are becoming increasingly intellectually dishonest as this conversation goes on.

For example, were you aware that he said "When you put on your Jesus glasses, you can't see the truth"?

That's boorish and idiotic of him, if he did say it. Do you have a source?

How about that he said ""When you pray for divine intervention, you're hoping that the spaghetti monster will help you get what you want"?

Well, that's as true as any other description. Again, it's sarky, but it's not an attack on religion. It's just a mean way of saying "All religious claims have equal weight."


So when he says, in the same lecture, that "Aristotle … argued, you know, there sort of has to be a God. Of course that’s nonsense," he isn't advocating a point of view on whether God exists?

No, especially since he specifically attacked the deductive reasoning Aristotle used. Do you really not understand that?

666 Obdicut  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 9:30:32am

re: #661 im_gumby_damnit

Make sure you get your facts straight about the lecture, then (maybe) we can have an intelligent discourse about whether it was appropriate or not. Thanks!

I love that you've distorted what he said, intentionally, and somehow I don't have my facts straight.

You're a charmer.

667 Political Atheist  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 9:31:52am

So do we have a number of posters here that oppose the establishment neutrality clause in that science should be used in schools as a means to disrupt religious beliefs? I would submit that science is not best used as a bludgeon to diminish religious belief.

Put me down as a supporter of an eminently reasonable compromise-The neutrality clause. Respect the appropriate venues and belief systems.

668 im_gumby_damnit  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 9:32:25am

re: #614 Naso Tang

I think we all agree that religion should not be debated, or taught, in school. The issue here is that this aspect of religion, creationism, does not claim to be faith based. It claims to be science, and is therefore open to the same critique and even ridicule as science is.

The lecture went well beyond that issue and attacked religion as whole. (Take a look at other articles that have more info about the lecture.) The teacher clearly overstepped.

The atheists in this crowd seem to be okay with that. I'm not because I don't believe that a teacher in a public school should either attack or advocate religious faith.

669 Killgore Trout  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 9:33:05am

Palestinian cease fire watch: Hamas official: Gaza militants agree to cease-fire

670 Obdicut  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 9:33:15am

re: #667 Rightwingconspirator

So do we have a number of posters here that oppose the establishment neutrality clause in that science should be used in schools as a means to disrupt religious beliefs?

No, that is not at all an accurate or fair thing to say.

Again: When religion makes claims about the actual world that are contradicted by science, it is 'neutral' to teach that those claims are, in fact, incorrect. To do otherwise is nonsensical, you simply teach that they're wrong but claim that you're not; that benefits no one.

671 im_gumby_damnit  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 9:33:49am

re: #665 Obdicut

Ah, I forget your psychic ability. That explains it.

What he said was that Aristotle's claim that there has to be a god is nonsense. And it is. And you portrayed that as, variously, saying that he'd called the idea god exists nonsense, and that "god is dead". You are becoming increasingly intellectually dishonest as this conversation goes on.

That's boorish and idiotic of him, if he did say it. Do you have a source?

Well, that's as true as any other description. Again, it's sarky, but it's not an attack on religion. It's just a mean way of saying "All religious claims have equal weight."

No, especially since he specifically attacked the deductive reasoning Aristotle used. Do you really not understand that?

Wow, and I'm the one that's being intellectually dishonest?

672 Shiplord Kirel  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 9:33:58am

re: #656 darthstar

He said "baptist faith"...so I interpret that to mean he once again accepts the concept of salvation, but not any specific church doctrine.

Finding a church is going to be a challenge. We have 68 Baptist churches in Lubbock, though, and there are a handful of congregations I plan to look at. It doesn't necessarily have to be Baptist either, since declared affiliations have become so blurred in recent years.

673 jaunte  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 9:34:47am

re: #670 Obdicut

Teaching geology with creationist Flood Geology believers in class would get pretty complicated.

674 Killgore Trout  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 9:34:58am

I think this sums it up nicely....
[Link: www.daylife.com...]

675 aagcobb  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 9:35:34am

re: #668 im_gumby_damnit

The lecture went well beyond that issue and attacked religion as whole. (Take a look at other articles that have more info about the lecture.) The teacher clearly overstepped.

The atheists in this crowd seem to be okay with that. I'm not because I don't believe that a teacher in a public school should either attack or advocate religious faith.

For someone who says he read the opinion, you don't have a firm grasp on it. he criticized Aristotle's argument for God. He criticized the way religion is used to get people to oppose their own interests. He criticized a biology teacher who promoted creationism. The teacher is a church attending Christian. How did you miss all that?

676 Obdicut  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 9:35:56am

re: #671 im_gumby_damnit

Wow, and I'm the one that's being intellectually dishonest?

Yes, you are. Please point out where I was intellectually dishonest in what I just said.

Again: He specifically addressed the logic of Aristotle's claim that there must be a god.

If you really cannot distinguish an attack on deductive reasoning of that sort to a blanket statement that there is no god, I'm not sure what to do.

677 im_gumby_damnit  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 9:36:24am

re: #666 Obdicut

I love that you've distorted what he said, intentionally, and somehow I don't have my facts straight.

You're a charmer.

And I like how you say I've taken the quote out of context, then refuse to look at the quote in its full context.

678 Obdicut  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 9:37:00am

re: #675 aagcobb

The teacher is a church attending Christian. How did you miss all that?

Stealth atheist Jihad, of course.

We need more Muslims advocating for creationism to be taught in class, maybe then people would start getting upset about it.
/

679 aagcobb  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 9:37:56am

re: #678 Obdicut

Stealth atheist Jihad, of course.

We need more Muslims advocating for creationism to be taught in class, maybe then people would start getting upset about it.
/

That would cause some wingnut head explosions, huh?

680 Obdicut  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 9:39:41am

re: #677 im_gumby_damnit

And I like how you say I've taken the quote out of context, then refuse to look at the quote in its full context.

What about the context of Corbett himself being a Christian? Doesn't your pseudo-argument depend on him claiming god doesn't exist?

681 Four More Tears  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 9:40:01am

Stupid question time: what would we all be saying if this teacher was being scrutinized for calling that end of the world thing a few months ago superstitious nonsense?

682 ThomasLite  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 9:40:18am

re: #660 Obdicut

Congrats on being the first person ever to call VAT something that works like a charm.

and no, the VAT is not similar to the flat tax. The Flat Tax is meant to be a solely end-user tax. The VAT travels all the way through the supply chain. So it's kind of the opposite of a flat tax.

you have a good point in that it's not really a flat tax, though it's quite comparable: unless a company is really disfunctional, it (should) sell at a higher price than at which it buys. ergo: all the VAT paid is returned. in the end only the end-user really pays. the effect is virtually the same.

and VAT works, yes. why (and oh dear, here I go again) would you say otherwise? it's a bit of an administrative burden but once the system (and administrative software) has been adapted it works.
we generally don't have much in the way of fraud with a VAT system (nowhere near the INSANE 10-15% estimate in that factcheck article, I'm quite certain).

I would dearly love to hear your angle on why VAT is a pain in the behind, though.

683 Gus  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 9:41:00am

re: #674 Killgore Trout

I think this sums it up nicely...
[Link: www.daylife.com...]

Not really.

684 Obdicut  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 9:41:49am

re: #681 JasonA

Stupid question time: what would we all be saying if this teacher was being scrutinized for calling that end of the world thing a few months ago superstitious nonsense?

Or the belief that winter ends every year because we ritually slaughter someone.

Or, in the social sciences, the belief that blacks are supposed to be in slavery. That one is actually slightly trickier to deal with in the classroom.

685 Political Atheist  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 9:42:00am

re: #670 Obdicut

No, that is not at all an accurate or fair thing to say.

Again: When religion makes claims about the actual world that are contradicted by science, it is 'neutral' to teach that those claims are, in fact, incorrect. To do otherwise is nonsensical, you simply teach that they're wrong but claim that you're not; that benefits no one.

What I said was a question. Not a declaration. An inquiry as to the view here of the establishment clause. If no one has that opinion I asked about fine, but I thought to draw that out for discussion in our customary manner.

686 ThomasLite  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 9:42:08am

re: #660 Obdicut

Congrats on being the first person ever to call VAT something that works like a charm.

oh and on that note I'd like to invite you to the tax law department of leiden university law school; they all say so. (and I think they'd know. not taking my word on fiscal matters is by all means a good idea, haha).

687 aagcobb  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 9:42:27am

re: #672 Shiplord Kirel

Finding a church is going to be a challenge. We have 68 Baptist churches in Lubbock, though, and there are a handful of congregations I plan to look at. It doesn't necessarily have to be Baptist either, since declared affiliations have become so blurred in recent years.

If you feel comfortable talking about it later, I'm sure your search for a rational Church in Lubbock will make an interesting story.

688 Obdicut  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 9:43:02am

re: #682 ThomasLite

we generally don't have much in the way of fraud with a VAT system (nowhere near the INSANE 10-15% estimate in that factcheck article, I'm quite certain).

Again, VAT isn't loaded onto the end-user, it's assessed throughout the supply chain. Do you get why that's a very, very different state of affairs?

689 ThomasLite  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 9:45:26am

re: #688 Obdicut

Again, VAT isn't loaded onto the end-user, it's assessed throughout the supply chain. Do you get why that's a very, very different state of affairs?

yes. in principle, that is. *however*, as long as one manages to generate more income from sales than what is spent on resources (generally a good way for any business in production or retail to stay afloat...) the fact that that is assessed is for fiscal administration convenience only.
I get why the idea is different. do you get the effect is comparable, if not indistinguishable except for the administrative burden?

690 Obdicut  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 9:45:36am

re: #685 Rightwingconspirator

What I said was a question. Not a declaration. An inquiry as to the view here of the establishment clause. If no one has that opinion I asked about fine, but I thought to draw that out for discussion in our customary manner.

But that's the same thing you've been saying for quite awhile. It really doesn't seem like you're giving any weight to what's being said to you, if you're asking that question.

I do indeed think that it's the duty of teachers to beat down erroneous claims about the real world, whether they come from conspiracy theorists, the simply ignorant, or the religious. It is not the religion I want to see castigated, but the actual claim. The logic that god must exist is terrible and should be described as such. Creationism is a fundamentally unsound theory and should be described as such.

691 Obdicut  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 9:46:58am

re: #689 ThomasLite

do you get the effect is comparable, if not indistinguishable except for the administrative burden?

No, mainly because I don't think that's true. Can you point me towards something that would help me understand?

I work for a company that sells things here and in the UK, and it's certainly been my impression that VAT is more than an administrative burden for us.

692 jaunte  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 9:49:35am

It's worth noting that the Farnan suit is the only complaint ever filed against Corbett in twenty years of teaching.

693 ProGunLiberal  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 9:50:06am

The Rebels now control the eastern third of Tripoli, and there are gun battles outside the Rixos Hotel.

At least 300 have been killed in the current battle, and reinforcements are coming by boat from Misrata and Zliten.

In addition, the Rebels are 27 km (16 miles) to the west of the city via Zawiyah.

A Live Blog for LGF maybe unnecessary.

694 Political Atheist  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 9:50:32am

re: #690 Obdicut

But that's the same thing you've been saying for quite awhile. It really doesn't seem like you're giving any weight to what's being said to you, if you're asking that question.

I do indeed think that it's the duty of teachers to beat down erroneous claims about the real world, whether they come from conspiracy theorists, the simply ignorant, or the religious. It is not the religion I want to see castigated, but the actual claim. The logic that god must exist is terrible and should be described as such. Creationism is a fundamentally unsound theory and should be described as such.

Ah, but conspiracy theories and rank ignorance have no legal protections as religious beliefs (in this case creationism) do under this clause. So if you take them all as the same level, you are opposing the neutrality aspect of this law. So sure we disagree at that point, and agree about conspiracies and ignorance.

695 Obdicut  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 9:51:19am

re: #694 Rightwingconspirator

Ah, but conspiracy theories and rank ignorance have no legal protections as religious beliefs (in this case creationism) do under this clause. .

Religious beliefs don't have any protection either, and I'm not sure why you think they do.

You seriously think that a teacher is not allowed to contradict religious beliefs in their teaching?

696 Achilles Tang  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 9:53:03am

re: #668 im_gumby_damnit

The lecture went well beyond that issue and attacked religion as whole. (Take a look at other articles that have more info about the lecture.) The teacher clearly overstepped.

Perhaps. I have only seen the references to creationism. However lawsuits based on someone's feelings being hurt sounds to me just like Muslims ranting on about cartoons of Muhammad (alleged cartoons, since nobody knows what he looked like).

697 Obdicut  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 9:53:09am

re: #694 Rightwingconspirator

Let's break this down a little.

Do you get that saying "Evolution is true", implies (in the logical sense) "Creationism is false"?

698 ProGunLiberal  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 9:54:32am

The management of the Rixos Hotel has fled. Journalists are in charge of it now.

699 Gus  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 9:54:44am

re: #693 ProLifeLiberal

The Rebels now control the eastern third of Tripoli, and there are gun battles outside the Rixos Hotel.

At least 300 have been killed in the current battle, and reinforcements are coming by boat from Misrata and Zliten.

In addition, the Rebels are 27 km (16 miles) to the west of the city via Zawiyah.

A Live Blog for LGF maybe unnecessary.

[Link: blogs.aljazeera.net...]

[Link: english.aljazeera.net...]

700 im_gumby_damnit  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 9:55:16am

re: #696 Naso Tang

Perhaps. I have only seen the references to creationism. However lawsuits based on someone's feelings being hurt sounds to me just like Muslims ranting on about cartoons of Muhammad (alleged cartoons, since nobody knows what he looked like).

I'm on record above as saying the lawsuit was silly and the matter should have been handled by the school.

701 Political Atheist  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 9:55:39am

re: #695 Obdicut

Religious beliefs don't have any protection either, and I'm not sure why you think they do.

You seriously think that a teacher is not allowed to contradict religious beliefs in their teaching?

Here is why I think they do-
We have a mandate that the government remain neutral in matters of religion. Since these are government schools..

BRB breakfast.

702 ProGunLiberal  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 9:55:53am

re: #699 Gus 802

I meant neccessary.

In any case, I'm following everything on this Twitter, Al Jazeera, etc.

703 Obdicut  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 9:55:55am

re: #700 im_gumby_damnit

I'm on record above as saying the lawsuit was silly and the matter should have been handled by the school.

Can you explain why your claim is that the teacher, who is a practicing Christian, was saying that there is no god?

704 Gus  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 9:56:35am

re: #702 ProLifeLiberal

I meant neccessary.

In any case, I'm following everything on this Twitter, Al Jazeera, etc.

Ah, OK. I can read Typo. ;)

705 jaunte  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 9:56:53am

re: #700 im_gumby_damnit

The Farnans didn't go to the school for a discussion with the teacher and principal, they just went (with attorneys and reporters in tow) to drop off the lawsuit.

706 Obdicut  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 9:57:37am

re: #701 Rightwingconspirator

Here is why I think they do-
We have a mandate that the government remain neutral in matters of religion. Since these are government schools..

BRB breakfast.

We have a mandate that the government should not favor any religion, including one over another, or prevent the practice of any religion.

The only religion that is possibly hurt by that is one that holds ignorance as a religious belief. Calivinandhobbsenianm.

Otherwise, you are ignoring that in order to teach about the real world, we have to teach things that contradict religion. your position appears to be that we can do that as long as we lie and claim that we're not actually contradicting religion.

707 ProGunLiberal  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 10:00:02am
dovenews Libyan
Hannibal's Gaddafi's office in BenAshoor is also under the control of FFs. Allahu Akbar via @bint_tarhouna

dovenews Libyan
NEW Message: Gaddafi threatens to burn #Tripoli & said him & his supporters will fight until the last drop of blood.

708 Gus  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 10:01:21am

re: #705 jaunte

The Farnans didn't go to the school for a discussion with the teacher and principal, they just went (with attorneys and reporters in tow) to drop off the lawsuit.

Here's a repost of your comment from last night:

re: #99 jaunte

Ha! Mileage varies...

"This case was never about religion," Corbett wrote on the Register's message boards. "It was about a whiny little boy who admitted he didn't do his homework and (whose) helicopter parents intervened so often in school and on the water polo team that other students called him 'princess.' Neither Chad, his parents nor his lawyers, the so-called 'Advocates for Faith and Freedom,' ever made an attempt to even talk to me or attempt to resolve the issues prior to filing a lawsuit."
...

Chad Farnan, who graduated from Capistrano Valley High School in Mission Viejo last year, speaks at an October 2009 campaign fundraiser in Irvine for Shawn Black, a GOP candidate for the 70th Assembly District. Black's campaign characterized Farnan as one of Orange County's leading conservative youths.

[Link: www.ocregister.com...]

i.e. "black helicopter" parents.

709 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 10:01:39am

re: #707 ProLifeLiberal

I am willing to fight to the last drop of everyone else's blood.

Sounds normal for him.

710 ThomasLite  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 10:01:44am

re: #691 Obdicut

No, mainly because I don't think that's true. Can you point me towards something that would help me understand?

hmm. downside of law school is that all sources tend to be local (when I was in ee everything was in english, now it's all dutch - all your scholarly accomplishments aside I don't think that's particularly helpful, so I'll try to explain the best I can).

basically, you pay 19% of the base price extra in tax. this is included in the price, but the cash register software separates that into the total VAT paid.
that is set aside as VAT to be paid to the state.
that number is printed on the receipt or invoice or whatever.
if you are an entity which collects VAT, you can also get VAT you paid refunded up to the total you collected. so you take all your invoices, put them in your admin software and that separates the VAT you paid from what you actually paid ex. tax. of course you keep the invoices for a possible audit or whatever, but seriously you're not going to tell me that's not common practice in the US already?
now since you want to make a profit somewhere you sell for more excl tax than what you paid excl tax. so you collect more than you pay, meaning you get back everything you paid first, then transfer the excess to the state.
everyone in the chain does this. in the end, while it's collected at N points along the chain, it's all effectively paid by the end-user (everyone else paid x and got back x, paid y and got back y and so forth).

the administrative burden is often lamented, but in truth, if you want to do any kind of effective accountancy in any business you have to input every last bit of data needed for this into your system already. therefore, with correct admin tools, it is no extra work whatsoever!
of course this doesn't stop people lamenting having to pay taxes; that seems to be human nature, haha.
now of course there might be some administrative details I overlooked, I'm no fiscal/business law expert by any means (const., criminal and tort, by preference) so the finest of fine points are best left to someone else.
however, the explanation is sound and more than enough to get the general idea, I think.

711 Targetpractice  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 10:02:35am

re: #707 ProLifeLiberal

And I'm sure the rebels will hold him to that.

712 ProGunLiberal  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 10:03:36am

re: #709 EmmmieG

More News:

BREAKING AFP: Libya rebels are 12 km west of Tripoli Near Tripoli (Libya) - Libyan rebels from the mountains of western Libyan Nefoussa are now b, according to an AFP correspondent.A convoy of vehicles carrying hundreds of rebels and heading to Tripoli was located 12 km from the capital, according to this correspondent, who reported scenes of jubilation at the passing of the insurgents, greeted by the firing of joy.

That's 7.5 miles from the city. The Berbers who Qaddafi tried to kill off for nearly 43 years will be the ones who broke is military, and killed him.

Delicious Irony.

713 ProGunLiberal  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 10:07:00am

re: #712 ProLifeLiberal

tripoli_latest Aisha Gaddafi compound has been breached. Reports of at least two security killed & two martyrs. Takbeer is deafening.

and a little heartwarming:

inphinite My aunt's brother in law HAS JUST WALKED IN TO THE HOUSE! HE HASNT BEEN SEEN FOR EXACTLY 6 MONTHS NOW! #feb17 #Libya #Tripoli

GO FREEDOM FIGHTERS GO!

714 Obdicut  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 10:10:29am

re: #710 ThomasLite

I'll have to read this later; I'm cleaning my apartment. Thank you for taking the time and trouble.

715 Shiplord Kirel  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 10:11:56am

The only question now is whether Gaddafi will take the Hitler option or flee into exile. He has few options left now, and it looks like they
are growing thinner by the minute.

716 ThomasLite  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 10:12:29am

re: #714 Obdicut

I'll have to read this later; I'm cleaning my apartment. Thank you for taking the time and trouble.

no problem at all. anyway, you set me straight in the debt ceiling discussion; least I could do!

717 jaunte  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 10:12:42am

Here's a little more context in the earlier Corbett-Farnan case:

The statement Selna found to have violated the Establishment Clause for expressing a “disapproval” of religion wasn’t the now-famous “Jesus glasses” statement. Selna tossed that quote out, stating in his ruling that once the quote was placed in context, “One cannot say that Corbett’s primary purpose here was to criticize Christianity or religion.”

The troublesome quote had to do with John Peloza, a biology teacher who openly taught creationism at Capistrano Valley High and who sued the district in 1991, alleging he was being forced to teach “the religion” of evolution. Corbett was also named in that suit (he was the adviser to the student newspaper then). The suit was dismissed and called “frivolous” by a U.S. district judge, who agreed with the district’s position that Peloza improperly violated state-mandated science curricula by teaching creationism.

In class, Corbett recounted what he said to an attorney years ago: “I said I would be willing to sign a release, freeing the district from any obligation to defend me, but that I would not allow John Peloza to propagandize kids with this superstitious, religious nonsense,” he says. That statement was recorded by Farnan and submitted with his suit. “The court cannot discern a legitimate secular purpose in this statement, even when considered in context,” Selna writes. Thus, the statement constitutes “improper disapproval of religion in violation of the Establishment Clause.”

The Farnans’ lawyer, Jennifer Monk, says that the single ruling against Corbett is enough for them to consider the suit victorious. “The judge determined that Corbett violated the Establishment Clause,” she says. “That’s all we need, whether it was one statement or a lot of statements.” Chad Farnan did not respond to the Weekly’s requests for comment.


[Link: www.ocweekly.com...]

718 ProGunLiberal  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 10:13:17am

re: #715 Shiplord Kirel

ChangeInLibya Mhalwes
It's official: Large convoys of freedom fighters have entered Janzour, Tripoli from the west (Zawiya/Nafousa) right now. #libya #feb17

Here comes the end! I hope Qaddafi ends up like Mussolini.

719 Targetpractice  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 10:14:19am

re: #715 Shiplord Kirel

The only question now is whether Gaddafi will take the Hitler option or flee into exile. He has few options left now, and it looks like they
are growing thinner by the minute.

Don't think it's a matter of fleeing so much as being allowed to leave. Seems like every route out of Tripoli is now blocked, either by the rebels or by NATO. And the former has little reason to let him live in exile.

720 ProGunLiberal  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 10:15:46am

re: #719 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

ChangeInLibya Mhalwes
BREAKING: #BENASHOUR APARTMENT BLOCKS families are being kicked out of their homes and thrown on the streets by #Gaddafi soldiers & snipers.

AJELive AJELive
#Germany to send troops to protect its diplomats in #Libya aje.me/o3eyZh

721 Varek Raith  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 10:16:05am

re: #718 ProLifeLiberal

Here comes the end! I hope Qaddafi ends up like Mussolini.

Couldn't happen to a nicer jerk.

722 Political Atheist  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 10:16:29am

re: #706 Obdicut

One up from me for a well stated post.

723 Winny Spencer  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 10:19:04am

re: #715 Shiplord Kirel

The only question now is whether Gaddafi will take the Hitler option or flee into exile. He has few options left now, and it looks like they
are growing thinner by the minute.

A coward like him will never commit suicide. If he can't escape by any other means, he'll do a Bormann and try to escape on foot.

724 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 10:19:34am

re: #723 Winny Spencer

A coward like him will never commit suicide. If he can't escape by any other means, he'll do a Bormann and try to escape on foot.

Jefferson Davis tried dressing up as a woman.

I really wouldn't put that past him.

725 Varek Raith  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 10:20:37am

re: #724 EmmmieG

Jefferson Davis tried dressing up as a woman.

I really wouldn't put that past him.

That's Miss Jessica Davis to you!

726 ProGunLiberal  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 10:22:03am

re: #725 Varek Raith

Our news in the US Blows. They not covering this at all.

I've heard that Sky News is. Do they have a live feed?

727 Varek Raith  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 10:23:54am

re: #726 ProLifeLiberal

Our news in the US Blows. They not covering this at all.

I've heard that Sky News is. Do they have a live feed?

I think they do, but I'm having trouble connecting to their site.

728 Killgore Trout  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 10:24:45am

re: #727 Varek Raith

I think they do, but I'm having trouble connecting to their site.

I just check Al Jaz again. No live coverage there.

729 Political Atheist  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 10:25:53am

re: #706 Obdicut

We have a mandate that the government should not favor any religion, including one over another, or prevent the practice of any religion.

Otherwise, you are ignoring that in order to teach about the real world, we have to teach things that contradict religion. your position appears to be that we can do that as long as we lie and claim that we're not actually contradicting religion.


What I claim is that we have this requirement, as follows

The establishment clause requires that officials act with neither favor nor disfavor toward religion and the religious.

Which goes further than your characterization.

730 ProGunLiberal  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 10:25:59am

re: #727 Varek Raith

Of course they are. Everyone knows they have been covering this like stick on crap. So, everyone flocks there.

731 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 10:28:40am

re: #726 ProLifeLiberal

Our news in the US Blows. They not covering this at all.

I've heard that Sky News is. Do they have a live feed?

The Kim Kardashian wedding is very important and will change the fate of history!

If you are Kim Kardashian.

732 Obdicut  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 10:31:21am

re: #729 Rightwingconspirator

What I claim is that we have this requirement, as follows

The establishment clause requires that officials act with neither favor nor disfavor toward religion and the religious.

Not really, though. If a religion says that it's perfectly fine to kill people, or kill certain kind of people, or keep slaves, or any number of things, we obviously act with disfavor towards it. So it is not possibly as simple as not acting with disfavor towards any religion.

733 A Man for all Seasons  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 10:33:40am

Good afternoon Lizards...
Hope everyone is well.. My maid is working today so I had to clean up some before she gets here.. I hate that about me...
I watched the political shows today..And really from my reading is that no one really has any good ideas left.. Nothing has really worked and now both parties are scraping from the bottom of the barrel of ideas
I think everybody is forgetting IMO that part of the process is the natural healing of the economy over time..It will come back but everyone is so reactive..Like a few policies from our elected pols will shock the economy into growing...We forget about time.. Now my pops ..the huge liberal doesn't think the unemployment will go below 8%.. It's the new reality to him.. He thinks if the big corps can stash 2 1/2 Trillion bucks during the worst recession since the 30's..Why the hell would they hire anyone? That's my pops

734 Varek Raith  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 10:34:37am

re: #733 HoosierHoops

Good afternoon Lizards...
Hope everyone is well.. My maid is working today so I had to clean up some before she gets here.. I hate that about me...
I watched the political shows today..And really from my reading is that no one really has any good ideas left.. Nothing has really worked and now both parties are scraping from the bottom of the barrel of ideas
I think everybody is forgetting IMO that part of the process is the natural healing of the economy over time..It will come back but everyone is so reactive..Like a few policies from our elected pols will shock the economy into growing...We forget about time.. Now my pops ..the huge liberal doesn't think the unemployment will go below 8%.. It's the new reality to him.. He thinks if the big corps can stash 2 1/2 Trillion bucks during the worst recession since the 30's..Why the hell would they hire anyone? That's my pops

YOU'RE DOING IT WRONG.

735 Political Atheist  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 10:41:28am

re: #732 Obdicut

Not really, though. If a religion says that it's perfectly fine to kill people, or kill certain kind of people, or keep slaves, or any number of things, we obviously act with disfavor towards it. So it is not possibly as simple as not acting with disfavor towards any religion.

An interesting hypothetical. Takes a short trip on the Ad Absurdum route though. Creationism belief is hardly comparable to murder or slavery.

736 ProGunLiberal  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 10:42:46am

re: #734 Varek Raith

Kinda agree there.

Does he now. RT @Reuters: FLASH: Gaddafi says he will not relinquish power, will win: state TV audio

Controlled panic in the #Rixos. All journos wearing body armor moving into what will hopefully will be safe room #CNN #Libya #Tripoliupdate

737 A Man for all Seasons  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 10:44:37am

re: #734 Varek Raith

YOU'RE DOING IT WRONG.

I know.. right? Why pick up before the maid gets here?
If you knew her you'd understand.. She has a running commentary on my life while she cleans.. Most of it is pretty funny but it can get pointed sometimes..She keeps track of who I date also..And she cleans my sheets...There are secrets here from her....Lucky I like her or she would be fired...
//

738 Obdicut  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 10:49:57am

re: #735 Rightwingconspirator

An interesting hypothetical. Takes a short trip on the Ad Absurdum route though. Creationism belief is hardly comparable to murder or slavery.

It's not morally comparable, but it's still a good demonstration that your claim is not true.

Any religion which finds its beliefs contradicted by physical reality is going to run into trouble with any educational system whatsoever. We can't just not teach kids because of that, and teaching them while studiously avoiding the glaring and obvious truth that what we're saying contradicts some religious beliefs is bizarre and unworkable in practice.

739 im_gumby_damnit  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 10:53:42am

re: #703 Obdicut

Can you explain why your claim is that the teacher, who is a practicing Christian, was saying that there is no god?

re: #703 Obdicut

Can you explain why your claim is that the teacher, who is a practicing Christian, was saying that there is no god?

That is an interesting fact, to be sure. It appears in the 9th Cir. opinion, but not in the news reports or in the district court's opinion.

Curiosity drove me to dig deeper, so I pulled up the statement of facts filed by the student in the district court on this case in support of his motion for summary judgment.

As in most court cases, there is a lot more to this case than meets the eye. For example, it appears that this teacher was having a running battle with another teacher in the school who was harping on creationism in class (complete with battling op-eds in the school newspaper, the transfer/dismissal of the other teacher and a separate lawsuit). It seems that this conflict infected the lecture and accounts for the tone. It's a serious rant that rakes evangelical/fundamental Christians up one side and down the other (I'm not an evangelical or fundamental Christian, for the record).

Therefore, it appears that the teacher didn't have a problem with the notion that god exists (despite the "Jesus glasses," "magic" and "superstition" comments), but had a real problem with evangelical/fundamental Christians and their belief system. That comes through in force during his lecture.

I don't think the teacher violated the constitution (which is why I think the lawsuit is silly), but I do not think that this kind of rant is appropriate in a public school system. If you read the transcript of the lecture and disagree with me, I'd be surprised.

740 Obdicut  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 10:55:47am

re: #739 im_gumby_damnit

Can you take the time to acknowledge that your previous claim-- that the teacher was stating that god does not exist-- is not a true one, please?

Or would you rather just push on from that?

741 Political Atheist  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 10:58:37am

re: #738 Obdicut

I am not suggesting withholding any science lesson. I thought I was clear above on that as I spoke to appropriate venues, and how a public school teacher may simply hew to the rule of not getting into religious beliefs as a topic or in class discussion.

And we have ample demonstrations of religions teaching the Bible and schools teaching science separately. Jewish kids get through that ok. Their Rabbi may be inclined to acknowledge Darwin and still study Torah. He may be one of those I have met who claim "fossils are a test of our faith in gods word" man.

We probably have played this through, I'll leave this as my last word on it, we likely both set our positions out reasonably well and in at least enough depth. :-)

742 Obdicut  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 11:00:50am

re: #741 Rightwingconspirator

I am not suggesting withholding any science lesson. I thought I was clear above on that as I spoke to appropriate venues, and how a public school teacher may simply hew to the rule of not getting into religious beliefs as a topic or in class discussion.

But again, you're ignoring that teaching evolution is indeed getting into religious beliefs, since churches directly teach that evolution is false and creationism is true.

This is the heart of it: Teaching evolution means saying creationism is not true. If the teacher is just going to say "Evolution is true" without saying "Creationism is not true", he's just dodging around the very, very obvious logic of what he's saying.


We probably have played this through, I'll leave this as my last word on it, we likely both set our positions out reasonably well and in at least enough depth. :-)

I'm sorry, I don't actually know what your position is.

743 im_gumby_damnit  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 11:02:07am

re: #740 Obdicut

Can you take the time to acknowledge that your previous claim-- that the teacher was stating that god does not exist-- is not a true one, please?

Or would you rather just push on from that?

As I said in my last post "Therefore, it appears that the teacher didn't have a problem with the notion that god exists. . . ." I can repeat it a third time if it makes you feel all warm and fuzzy inside. Just let me know.

Now, to the broader point as to whether the teacher's conduct was appropriate or not (which is where our little debate began), please let me know (after you've read the full details of the lecture) whether you think it was appropriate or not. Or would you prefer just to push on from that?

744 Obdicut  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 11:06:04am

re: #743 im_gumby_damnit

As I said in my last post "Therefore, it appears that the teacher didn't have a problem with the notion that god exists. . . ." I can repeat it a third time if it makes you feel all warm and fuzzy inside. Just let me know.

No, I'm referring to your previous claim that his statement on Aristotle clearly meant that he was saying god didn't exist, and your pointed ignoring that he was only talking about Aristotle's logic. Remember? You argued that, given the context, it was clear he was saying god didn't exist?

Now, to the broader point as to whether the teacher's conduct was appropriate or not (which is where our little debate began), please let me know (after you've read the full details of the lecture) whether you think it was appropriate or not. Or would you prefer just to push on from that?

Appropriate? I don't think it was the best possible way of handling the situation. I think it came about because of a tolerance for creationism in the classroom that we have way, way, way too much of in the US.

I think that the passion it shows for actually educating kids far outmatches the offense it may cause to creationists, who are not generally reachable through educational means anyway.

So sure, he falls short of a Platonic ideal of teaching. As a real world human being, at most someone should say to him "I know it's tough dealing with the creationists, and I know they get coddled, but try to be more diplomatic; you'll get through to more people. Maybe. Don't actually have any proof for that last bit."

745 Obdicut  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 11:12:07am

By the way, ThomasLite, I've read your thingy once, and haven't fully digested it. I did find this on Wiki:

Both types of consumption tax create an incentive by end consumers to avoid or evade the tax, but the sales tax offers the buyer a mechanism to avoid or evade the tax—persuade the seller that he (the buyer) is not really an end consumer, and therefore the seller is not legally required to collect it. The burden of determining whether the buyer's motivation is to consume or re-sell is on the seller, but the seller has no direct economic incentive to collect it. The VAT approach gives sellers a direct financial stake in collecting the tax, and eliminates the problematic decision by the seller about whether the buyer is or is not an end consumer.

So that would appear to be the major difference between the VAT and the Fair Tax; the chain of tax actually means that every seller has an incentive to collect it (making it seem what you said is quite true, that it has a minimal effect on each agent int he supply chain) whereas in a sales tax there is an incentive for everyone involved to avoid the tax where possible.

746 darthstar  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 11:17:20am

re: #713 ProLifeLiberal

and a little heartwarming:

GO FREEDOM FIGHTERS GO!

You'll notice we don't call them "Freedom Fighters" when they're fighting against us...

747 im_gumby_damnit  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 11:26:08am

re: #744 Obdicut

No, I'm referring to your previous claim that his statement on Aristotle clearly meant that he was saying god didn't exist, and your pointed ignoring that he was only talking about Aristotle's logic. Remember? You argued that, given the context, it was clear he was saying god didn't exist?

Appropriate? I don't think it was the best possible way of handling the situation. I think it came about because of a tolerance for creationism in the classroom that we have way, way, way too much of in the US.

I think that the passion it shows for actually educating kids far outmatches the offense it may cause to creationists, who are not generally reachable through educational means anyway.

So sure, he falls short of a Platonic ideal of teaching. As a real world human being, at most someone should say to him "I know it's tough dealing with the creationists, and I know they get coddled, but try to be more diplomatic; you'll get through to more people. Maybe. Don't actually have any proof for that last bit."

In the full context of the whole lecture, I think it's fair to say he was taking issue with Aristotle's logic rather than the existence of god. On the propriety point, the lecture goes well beyond just poking creationists in the eye or demonstrating "passion." I can't tell from your response whether you've reviewed the full transcript of his lectures, but it doesn't sound like you have.

748 Obdicut  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 11:28:39am

re: #747 im_gumby_damnit

In the full context of the whole lecture, I think it's fair to say he was taking issue with Aristotle's logic rather than the existence of god.

So that would be the opposite of what you'd previously claimed so ardently, right? While attacking me for not getting the context of his lectures, yeah?

On the propriety point, the lecture goes well beyond just poking creationists in the eye or demonstrating "passion."

I don't think it does. He's only talking about claims by religion that are demonstrably untrue, about magical claims.

I can't tell from your response whether you've reviewed the full transcript of his lectures, but it doesn't sound like you have.

Then cite something specific you feel goes beyond that.

749 ThomasLite  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 11:37:14am

re: #745 Obdicut

By the way, ThomasLite, I've read your thingy once, and haven't fully digested it. I did find this on Wiki:

So that would appear to be the major difference between the VAT and the Fair Tax; the chain of tax actually means that every seller has an incentive to collect it (making it seem what you said is quite true, that it has a minimal effect on each agent int he supply chain) whereas in a sales tax there is an incentive for everyone involved to avoid the tax where possible.

that is *the* major difference, yes. the payer and the amount paid in both systems, in a fraud-free world, is the same.
the VAT system is good insofar as that it actually works. I'm sure if one were to ever implement a sales tax only system (like the fairtax initiative) the VAT route is the way to go.

which is why I was perplexed when you were surprised I said VAT works like a charm. we use VAT to not have the humongous headaches the US sales tax system causes, even now.

oh and with what you just posted, I think you have the general idea of a VAT down quite well. it's a beatiful system really. doesn't even need that many inspection officers (fraud would only work in chains, so one audit would uncover dozens of fraudulent agents, so the risk is way too high, so even with 19% VAT like here, amongst all kinds of tax fraud regularly perpetrated, VAT fraud is not one of them. like, ever.)

anyway, I'd say the general idea of a fairVAT like system might not be as insane as previously stated (because it removes the fraud incentive, which is basically the biggest problem for fairtax as proposed). would you agree? (not to say you should upend the entire frikkin' federal tax system right now, but just as an intellectual exercise?)

750 Obdicut  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 11:37:26am

re: #710 ThomasLite

Having read this, I now understand how VAT works (to a reasonable tolerance) and you're right that it is an administrative hurdle and not one that creates a shadow economy problem.

But precisely because it acts at every point on the supply chain-- even if the net result to those agents is nil-- it is very different from the Fair Tax, which concentrates the tax on the end user. So, in VAT, every entity has an incentive to collect the tax, but in the Fair Tax, no one does.

751 Obdicut  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 11:38:48am

re: #749 ThomasLite

anyway, I'd say the general idea of a fairVAT like system might not be as insane as previously stated (because it removes the fraud incentive, which is basically the biggest problem for fairtax as proposed). would you agree?

Yep. My objections were entirely misfounded, based purely on that administrative headache-- which, I should have realized, is all my guys were complaining about. You were entirely correct, and I was entirely wrong to call VAT a headache, especially compared to patchy sales tax of the sort we have in the US (differing state-by-state and good-by-good).

752 im_gumby_damnit  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 11:40:52am

re: #748 Obdicut

So that would be the opposite of what you'd previously claimed so ardently, right? While attacking me for not getting the context of his lectures, yeah?

I don't think it does. He's only talking about claims by religion that are demonstrably untrue, about magical claims.

Then cite something specific you feel goes beyond that.

I think I was wrong on the Aristotle point. At least I've admitted that.

You are wrong on the propriety of the lecture. You haven't read the details. You can find the transcript of the lectures on the PACER system run by the federal court system. Just look in the docket for the plaintiff's statement of facts and you will see the transcripts attached as exhibits. Once you read that and have the full context, let us know whether you still think it was appropriate.

753 Obdicut  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 11:44:54am

re: #752 im_gumby_damnit

I think I was wrong on the Aristotle point. At least I've admitted that.

Well, now you have. Good jorb. Next time you find yourself having to depend on psychic powers for your point, you might want to not argue it in the first place. Or ignore the arguments which show you that you're wrong until you actually find a fact that you can't just dismiss. It was patently obvious from the outset that he was only talking about Aristotle's logic and the claim that god must exist.

You are wrong on the propriety of the lecture. You haven't read the details.

Then please cite some of those details. It's also weird to ask my opinion on propriety and then tell me what it is. Propriety is an entirely subjective quality.

I'll go ahead and read it, but given your previous biased errors, I doubt that the transcript is going to lean in the direction you say it does.

754 ThomasLite  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 11:47:23am

re: #750 Obdicut

re: #751 Obdicut

best thing is, I don't think a sales tax is actually less work. it's quite possibly more of a headache given the patchiness and the "what-is-an-end-user" issues.
as to your #750 I'd say that not only does it not create any "shadowy economic problem", it actually solves a few.
but it does require centralized taxation (so federal) instead of local (state, as with sales taxes as I understand it) to 'work' across state lines, which is of course a bare minimum. it's a great system but it would take some real heavy lifting to make work in the USA.

I guess I still see VAT instead of sales tax in fairtax as more of a fix than a fundamental difference, but that's just arguing semantics. it would need a VATlike system to work for sure, so the basic criticisms still go, I guess.

755 Obdicut  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 11:52:59am

re: #754 ThomasLite

You've also got to take into account that those who are proposing the Fair Tax in the US are doing so as a replacement for the income tax. The specific people proposing it do so precisely because it shifts the tax burden from the rich. To my knowledge, the VAT was not used as a replacement for income tax in the UK or most other countries, except those where it was partnered with a flat tax (which was still not usually flat.)

756 im_gumby_damnit  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 11:54:36am

re: #753 Obdicut

Well, now you have. Good jorb. Next time you find yourself having to depend on psychic powers for your point, you might want to not argue it in the first place. Or ignore the arguments which show you that you're wrong until you actually find a fact that you can't just dismiss. It was patently obvious from the outset that he was only talking about Aristotle's logic and the claim that god must exist.

Then please cite some of those details. It's also weird to ask my opinion on propriety and then tell me what it is. Propriety is an entirely subjective quality.

I'll go ahead and read it, but given your previous biased errors, I doubt that the transcript is going to lean in the direction you say it does.

Well, you've already declared, without reading the lecture, that "He's only talking about claims by religion that are demonstrably untrue, about magical claims." So I'm not going to hold my breath on the hope that you'll be intellectually honest enough to admit when you're wrong.

757 im_gumby_damnit  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 12:20:34pm

re: #753 Obdicut

The excerpts from the transcript are lengthy and I can't present them all here or quote them in full, but here are a few quotes from lectures from two classes presented by this teacher in an AP European History class:

"Now, the Boy Scouts have said, unless you're willing to love God, and
unless you're willing to - unless you're not gay, urn - they are saying,
being gay excludes you. . . . now they are, in their own mind, a homophobic and a racist organization.”

“[C]onservatives don't want women to avoid pregnancies. That's
interfering with God's work. You got to stay pregnant, barefoot, and in
the kitchen and have babies until your body collapses.”

“You know, you go down to Georgia, Alabama, Mississippi, all
these states that are as red as they could possibly be, as right-wing
Republican as you could possibly be. When you first present these people with the economic policies of the Democratic party, they are all
Democrats. Virtually all the social programs, they like. They lead the
Democratic party on social issues.”

“So we know what rehabilitation works and that punishment doesn't, and yet we go on punishing. It really has a lot to do with these same culture wars we're talking about. This whole Biblical notion: Sinners need to be punished. And so you get massively more Draconian punishment in the South where religion is much more central to society than you do anyplace else.”

“Today, the Republican party has brought Jesus into the political arena. . . . On the other hand, we've had many presidents who were not Christians. It's only been in recent years that you have to love Jesus if you're going to get elected."

"[T]his kid is in the class, and, as I say, a Christian fundamentalist kid who wanted to be a minister. .. And, urn, he was actually set on going - - I mean, if your parents go there, please, you know, don't be too insulted. But he wanted to go to Biola, which is the Bible Institute of Los Angeles, and truly, as far as colleges go, it's the - - it is the college which George Bush is being assigned to (inaudible), and it is the college that has no academic integrity whatsoever. And it is a fundamentalist Christian school. I think, a college that has basically one book."

758 Obdicut  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 12:20:45pm

re: #756 im_gumby_damnit

I declared that about what I'd seen that he'd said, not about the totality of it. If I read anything that contradicts that, I'll certainly modify my views.

You have a really odd attitude for someone who waded in with a completely false claim and then took ages to actually admit to the error.

759 ThomasLite  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 12:25:14pm

re: #755 Obdicut

You've also got to take into account that those who are proposing the Fair Tax in the US are doing so as a replacement for the income tax. The specific people proposing it do so precisely because it shifts the tax burden from the rich. To my knowledge, the VAT was not used as a replacement for income tax in the UK or most other countries, except those where it was partnered with a flat tax (which was still not usually flat.)

yes, that was my understanding as well, initially. however, looking at the factcheck analysis (I take it factcheck.org is seen as generally reasonably accurate, right?) after the prebate is taken into account, the tax burden influence is not very high, and it actually is beneficial to the poorest.
now on the one hand it's another hit on the middle class -- I'm no fan of that, make no mistake -- on the other hand it's not a very big hit, and precisely because it is *such* a major simplification of fiscal law it does mean two things. first: average people can actually understand this. I've lost count of how many times I was lurking around here and you had to - again! - explain how even a progressive income tax works. now that's just a simple concept.
understanding taxes leads to accepting them as fair, instead of something to rail against, usually (ofcourse there's always going to be the odd sovereign citizen here and there but there's just no accommodating such idiots).
second: the one single greatest thing about flat taxes, fairtax andsoforth: good luck finding a legal loophole. these things are too simple and straightforward for that.

now there's just no comparing US tax code to fiscal law here in europe. the way you guys pay taxes both to the state you live in and the federal government directly is just not mirrored anywhere here (even germany sort of unifies tax collection, IIRC). sure, we have different agencies to pay taxes or such dues to (water management agencies here in NL come to mind, for example) but that's basically all just collected by one IRS equivalent agency.
I can't honestly claim to really understand how taxes are levied by whom against what in the US, but I can say that taxation here in europe is always a single-tier, more comprehensive payment than it is, as far as I understand, in the states. that does mean that fairtax/fairVAT would be replacing a system which has no real direct equivalent here in europe.
looking at the math from factcheck it does seem it really would kind of work. might be a few bugs to iron out but it's not fundamentally impossible. surprised the hell outta me as well, to be honest, but it adds up.

not getting into the details, I really, really do like the idea of making taxes as simple as they can humanly be.
now there's one added benefit to our VAT system here in NL that I don't see fairtax mentioning yet:
we have to VAT "tiers", the 19% tier and the 6% tier. 6%?!? yup. that's for food and essentials (and has at one time included music lessons for minors - great idea by the way, shame they cancelled that programme).
now of course a much larger % of income from poor and low-middle class families is going to be spent on 'food and essentials' than there's going to be by richer folks. I don't have the data (or for that matter the inclination) to do the math, but looking at the % data from factcheck, something like that might iron it out.
and leave a much easier to understand, easier to explain and 'fairer' feeling tax code in it's wake, while we're at it.


heh. and here I was, saying I wasn't going to get into the fairtax matter itself at all. this blog sucks up time like nothing else if you don't watch out.

760 im_gumby_damnit  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 12:26:52pm

re: #758 Obdicut

You were happy to leave the implication that you had read the materials, when you really hadn't, and that the teacher was "only talking about claims by religion that are demonstrably untrue, about magical claims." A statement that is plainly false (see lecture excerpts above). We will see now whether you can admit an error.

761 Obdicut  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 12:31:47pm

re: #757 im_gumby_damnit

"Now, the Boy Scouts have said, unless you're willing to love God, and
unless you're willing to - unless you're not gay, urn - they are saying,
being gay excludes you. . . . now they are, in their own mind, a homophobic and a racist organization.”

I'm not so sure about the racist part, but yes, the Boy Scouts are a homophobic organization, and a good example of first amendment issues.

“[C]onservatives don't want women to avoid pregnancies. That's interfering with God's work. You got to stay pregnant, barefoot, and in the kitchen and have babies until your body collapses.”

Only slight hyperbole, if 'conservatives' are synonymous with today's GOP.

“You know, you go down to Georgia, Alabama, Mississippi, all these states that are as red as they could possibly be, as right-wing
Republican as you could possibly be. When you first present these people with the economic policies of the Democratic party, they are all
Democrats. Virtually all the social programs, they like. They lead the
Democratic party on social issues.”

Er, that's quite true. What issue do you have with that, exactly?

“So we know what rehabilitation works and that punishment doesn't, and yet we go on punishing. It really has a lot to do with these same culture wars we're talking about. This whole Biblical notion: Sinners need to be punished. And so you get massively more Draconian punishment in the South where religion is much more central to society than you do anyplace else.”

I don't think his claim that you have more draconian punishment in the South is actually true, given things like California's three-strikes role. But otherwise, that punishment is favored over rehabilitation and some of that comes from the punish-the-sin attitude, is certainly true.

“Today, the Republican party has brought Jesus into the political arena. . . . On the other hand, we've had many presidents who were not Christians. It's only been in recent years that you have to love Jesus if you're going to get elected."

Again, quite true, and in important point for those who think that the Founding Fathers were arch-Christians.


"[T]his kid is in the class, and, as I say, a Christian fundamentalist kid who wanted to be a minister. .. And, urn, he was actually set on going - - I mean, if your parents go there, please, you know, don't be too insulted. But he wanted to go to Biola, which is the Bible Institute of Los Angeles, and truly, as far as colleges go, it's the - - it is the college which George Bush is being assigned to (inaudible), and it is the college that has no academic integrity whatsoever. And it is a fundamentalist Christian school. I think, a college that has basically one book."

I'd say that's incorrect, since they are an accredited school. They do, however, have this mission statement: "biblically centered education, scholarship, and service — equipping men and women in mind and character to impact the world for the Lord Jesus Christ." which is incompatible with academic integrity.

Seriously, that's your list of evil stuff? Most of it is only incidentally about religion. A lot of it is quite good, accurate stuff about the current state of the culture war.

762 Obdicut  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 12:35:23pm

re: #760 im_gumby_damnit

You were happy to leave the implication that you had read the materials, when you really hadn't,.

I wasn't either happy or sad about it. I assumed that the most damaging or egregious examples would have been given; this turns out to be true, since what you're serving up now is mostly stuff that's either true or mild hyperbole. The worst one is calling an accredited school bereft of academic integrity. That's about all.

A statement that is plainly false (see lecture excerpts above). We will see now whether you can admit an error.

Sure, he's also talking about the culture wars and how religious thinking has influenced policy. My previous statement was in error; I thought that the objections you were raising were just about first amendment propriety, and not about politics. It appears your problem is actually the teacher's politics, and not his attitude towards religion. Is that fair enough?

763 im_gumby_damnit  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 12:52:25pm

re: #762 Obdicut

My point has never been that I have a problem with any of the teacher's "attitudes" or "ideas" regarding politics or religion. (You've assumed that, which has driven some of the vitriol.) I'm not a "right winger."

My problem is that this guy is improperly and unnecessarily injecting his political and religious views into his lectures. He is there to teach history -- not to accuse the Boy Scouts of being "racist" or Republicans of being misogynists or a Christian college of being ignorant. He is pushing his personal views (and vendettas) instead of legitimately challenging his students to think for themselves.

Frankly, I would not want this guy OR his right wing counterpart teaching my kids anything. That is and always has been my point.

764 Obdicut  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 12:58:58pm

re: #763 im_gumby_damnit

My point has never been that I have a problem with any of the teacher's "attitudes" or "ideas" regarding politics or religion. (You've assumed that, which has driven some of the vitriol.) I'm not a "right winger."

My vitriol has mainly come from your unfounded claim and your bizarre unwillingness to back down, instead relying on your psychic powers.

My problem is that this guy is improperly and unnecessarily injecting his political and religious views into his lectures.

I'm sorry, but if you think it's possible to teach an apolitical view of history, you're kind of crazy.

He is there to teach history -- not to accuse the Boy Scouts of being "racist" or Republicans of being misogynists or a Christian college of being ignorant.

This is idiotic. Of course he should use actual examples to show what he's talking about. The restrictions on abortion are actually religiously motivated, and really do constitution a stealth violation of the first amendment. Of course it's proper to talk about them.

He is pushing his personal views (and vendettas) instead of legitimately challenging his students to think for themselves.

Oh geez. You're one of those types who somehow thinks robotic, anodyne teachers presenting some mythical neutral view on every subject can either exist or would be desireable. It's such a blinkered and short-sighted view I"m afraid I can't accord it any respect whatsoever.

Frankly, I would not want this guy OR his right wing counterpart teaching my kids anything. That is and always has been my point.

I would. He's actually engaged and passionate. He reminds me, to a limited extent, of the libertarian history teacher I had in 11th grade, with whom I disagreed about on many, many things.

Can you explain why you truncated the Boy Scout quote to make it appear as just a rant, and cut off this part:

It's that simple…. It's call[ed] separation of church and state. The Boy Scouts can't have it both ways. If they want to be an exclusive, Christian organization or an exclusive, God-fearing organization, then they can't receive any more support from the state, and shouldn't.

You know, the part that directly ties it into the first amendment?

765 Charles Johnson  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 12:59:08pm

re: #739 im_gumby_damnit

If this teacher was having a running battle with another teacher who was actually teaching creationism in school, that definitely does add more context to the story -- but not in a way that makes the anti-creationist look bad. If true, that other teacher was breaking the law, not just having a philosophical discussion.

I applaud the anti-creationist teacher -- who now won't have to worry about being sued by religious fundamentalists. There's very clearly a big problem in that school with activist fundamentalist Christians. Somebody stood up to them -- and good for him.

766 im_gumby_damnit  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 1:16:59pm

re: #764 Obdicut

You asked for examples. So I gave them. There is a word limit on the posts you know. Now you criticize me for truncating the boy scout quote? Yes, the boy scout case is a seminal first amendment case, but racism played no role. Why did he throw that in there, do you think?

You don't see the dangers in your logic. If you were told a story about a teacher going into a class room and giving the equivalent conservative/GOP view of the world as a springboard for discussing European history, you'd have a fit.

You think it's "idiotic" that I would disagree with a teacher who accuses the boy scouts of being racist, republicans of being misogynists and a local college of being ignorant as part of a European history discussion? You really think that's appropriate? That tells me a lot actually. So does your use of pejorative language.

You make this statement "Oh geez. You're one of those types who somehow thinks robotic, anodyne teachers presenting some mythical neutral view on every subject can either exist or would be desireable." Quite a leap from what I said. You created a straw man out of thin air on that one.

767 Obdicut  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 1:23:48pm

re: #766 im_gumby_damnit

You asked for examples. So I gave them. There is a word limit on the posts you know. Now you criticize me for truncating the boy scout quote? Yes, the boy scout case is a seminal first amendment case, but racism played no role. Why did he throw that in there, do you think?

I don't know. I don't know what the racism charge is about. I'd need him to explain it. So your entire objection to that entire part about the boy scouts is the word racism, and you're willing to discard the virtue of the first amendment example given by it in order to concentrate on that word?


You don't see the dangers in your logic. If you were told a story about a teacher going into a class room and giving the equivalent conservative/GOP view of the world as a springboard for discussing European history, you'd have a fit.

Please stop believing you're psychic. It's not good for you. I had a teacher who gave me the conservative view of the world, and he was great.


You think it's "idiotic" that I would disagree with a teacher who accuses the boy scouts of being racist, republicans of being misogynists and a local college of being ignorant as part of a European history discussion?

Disagree? I'm sorry, I thought you were making some charge that what he did was 'improper'. Now you just disagree?


You make this statement "Oh geez. You're one of those types who somehow thinks robotic, anodyne teachers presenting some mythical neutral view on every subject can either exist or would be desireable." Quite a leap from what I said. You created a straw man out of thin air on that one.

No, I didn't. You want a teacher who doesn't interject opinion or politics. This is not only impossible, but wildly undesirable. We don't want a teacher who presents the Nazis as having an equally valid philosophy as anyone else. We don't want a teacher who thinks that the Confederacy was in the right to secede-- and we have a lot of those, actually.

This is what you said:

My problem is that this guy is improperly and unnecessarily injecting his political and religious views into his lectures.

Of course, you've got a shitload of wiggle room in those vague words. What is your standard? Should he have described the modern GOP's view on abortion as "Differently feminist"? It is misogynistic. You want him to somehow avoid that fact, or do you want to say that isn't a fact?

768 Obdicut  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 1:30:34pm

re: #766 im_gumby_damnit

Oh, and you were nowhere near the character limit, so why try to claim that as an excuse for truncating that paragraph to remove the relevant part?

Would you care to try a different excuse?

769 im_gumby_damnit  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 2:01:19pm

re: #768 Obdicut

You're being silly now.

You are being "psychic" by imagining just the kind of teacher I have in mind and how very different he/she would be from your image of the perfect teacher. Then you attack your image of my image. You can continue that discussion on your own, since you apparently don't need me to keep it going.

On the boy scout quote, I had to cut all of the quotes (including that one) to come in under the word limit. (That's what those little things called "ellipses" are.) And you did see my intro where I indicated that I had to cut, right?

On the substance of the boy scout issue, you state: "So your entire objection to that entire part about the boy scouts is the word racism, and you're willing to discard the virtue of the first amendment example given by it in order to concentrate on that word?"

Wrong. My objection is that he could have discussed that valuable first amendment example without calling the boy scouts "racist." I "disagree" with the teacher using this jab to make his point. Can you follow that? Also, you know full well that the Boy Scout First Amendment case did not involve racism. So don't give me that "I'd need him to explain it" dodge.

In any event, the bottom line is that you are okay with what this guy says in class because you agree with him on a political and religious level. That makes you a hypocrite. It is people like you on both sides of the political spectrum that are to blame for the majority of the problems we have in this country.

You can have the last word silly man.

770 Obdicut  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 2:10:56pm

re: #769 im_gumby_damnit

You are being "psychic" by imagining just the kind of teacher I have in mind and how very different he/she would be from your image of the perfect teacher. Then you attack your image of my image. You can continue that discussion on your own, since you apparently don't need me to keep it going.

No, I'm using this case as an example of something that you feel is egregiously inserting their own politics and opinions. It's not, in the least. Most of what you cited is simply true. The Boy Scout part has 'racist' as the only question mark. The rest-- when you add in what you truncated (and not, as you claimed, because of a character limit) of that quote is a very, very important point.

On the boy scout quote, I had to cut all of the quotes (including that one) to come in under the word limit. (That's what those little things called "ellipses" are.) And you did see my intro where I indicated that I had to cut, right?

You had 1400 characters left. I guess incompetence can explain it, maybe.

As it stands, you cut out the part that was making the important point, and left in the part that seemed most ranty. You edited it in a fashion that made it appear different than it actually is. Whether on purpose or through incompetence, you changed it radically.

Wrong. My objection is that he could have discussed that valuable first amendment example without calling the boy scouts "racist."

Yeah. Which is what I said-- that one charge is all that you have. Which, again, has nothing to do with anything about religion, so now you're just combing through anything this teacher said to find anything to criticize him with.

Also, you know full well that the Boy Scout First Amendment case did not involve racism. So don't give me that "I'd need him to explain it" dodge.

Um, the Boy Scouts certainly used to be avowedly racist. I have no idea if they still are in some fashion or another.

In any event, the bottom line is that you are okay with what this guy says in class because you agree with him on a political and religious level.

Nope. That's a lie. I'm also okay with a teacher presenting the view that the robber barons were actually quite beneficial to the US, and that without them we'd have been a lot worse off economically, as my libertarian 11th grade teacher taught.

Furthermore, you're dodging entirely that, within bounds, everyone wants a teacher to have certain political views. We don't want teachers that present holocaust denial, Pol Pot worship, and Lysenkoism as good policy. We don't want teachers that say the Confederacy was acting out of "States rights". There's all sorts of ways in which we want teachers politics to align with our Republican Democracy.

Mostly, I just want them to align with reality. This guy's, for the most part, does. Where they have't, I've criticized him-- which you've completely fucking ignored, because it's inconvenient to your argument.

Your only argument is assigning me a position and then criticizing it, which is especially funny given that's what you're accusing me of.

You can have the last word silly man.

Oh no. How terrible of me to rebut your argument. It's simply awful of me.

From your initial charge that this guy was some sort of anti-god athiest to your mutated argument that he was improperly interjecting his politics, at no point have you made any sort of reasonable criticism of this teacher. The entire time you have ignored the actual context-- that a creationist teacher was allowed to teach for a number of years.

Congrats on one of the weakest arguments I've ever seen presented at LGF.

771 im_gumby_damnit  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 2:16:39pm

re: #765 Charles

Here's a little more on that subject. This is an excerpt from one of the lectures at issue in the lawsuit:

"Mr. Palozza used to be (inaudible) in biology. I was the editor of - - not the editor - - the advisor to the student newspaper at the time .. .In his classes, he was not telling the kids the scientific truth about evolution. He was hinting to kids in class that there's another explanation, and he invited kids to his home so they could hear the truth, the Biblical truth about all this ... He sued me as the advisor to the paper for five million, as a matter of fact. He also, on another issue, sued several other members of the faculty here because he claimed he had the right under rules of academic freedom ... it's not very true at the high school level, we have a curriculum regarding how one's supposed to teach children in class. It's the state curriculum. It doesn't include European History, so I have to make it up ... The claim was that my editorial was false and he wasn't teaching religion, that creation science was all he ever taught, and, of course, for periods of time its religion .. .I will not leave John Palozza alone to propagandize kids with this religion, superstitious nonsense ... he effectively was fired; although, frankly, you know, I think he should have been fired - - (inaudible) should have been fired from the district. He was just moved to a job where he could do less damage."

I think this quote again shows that this teacher has a problem with expressing himself and his views in a way that is appropriate in the classroom. If the other teacher was preaching creationism, I applaud him for taking this stand. He was in the right. But is it appropriate or professional to tell a classroom of 15 year olds that another teacher "should have been fired from the district"? This doesn't reflect good judgment or discretion.

772 Obdicut  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 2:18:56pm

re: #771 im_gumby_damnit

But the other teacher should have been fired from the district.

Teaching creationism in school is actually illegal, you know.

773 im_gumby_damnit  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 2:23:03pm

re: #772 Obdicut

As you can see from the quote itself, the other teacher protested the notion that he was teaching Christianity. So who knows whether he was or not. The point is, there is no reason to tell the students that this other teacher should have been kicked out of the school district. Congratulations on making another stupid statement.

774 Obdicut  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 2:25:14pm

re: #773 im_gumby_damnit

Heh. Typical. Whine about pejorative statements and then have no problem making them on your own.

Your new argument fails on the outset, because you're now just saying we don't know whether what he was saying was correct or not; that the other teacher was teaching creationism. So you're accusing him of possibly being unprofessional, depending on that.

Why not spend some of your time researching that, instead of combing through this teacher's statements for anything you 'disagree' with?

775 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 2:36:59pm

re: #773 im_gumby_damnit

The only person I see making stupid remarks is you. Stop with your lame hostility.

776 im_gumby_damnit  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 2:39:51pm

re: #774 Obdicut

Typical of you to use pejoratives and then criticize me for returning the favor. (Do you even listen to yourself?)

As far as your "argument," you somehow miss the connection between these statements and my premise.

You don't need to call the boy scouts "racist" to discuss the first amendment issues raised in the Dale case. You don't need to call a local Christian college ignorant or say that another teacher should be kicked out of the district to make a point about the separation of church and state. You don't need to refer to religious beliefs as "superstition" or the equivalent of believing in a "spaghetti monster" to teach the science of evolution, let alone European history.

It all reflects the same thing -- bad judgment and a failure to communicate the lesson in an appropriate manner. This should have been addressed locally between the school and the teacher.

777 Obdicut  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 2:49:48pm

re: #776 im_gumby_damnit

Typical of you to use pejoratives and then criticize me for returning the favor. (Do you even listen to yourself?)

Yes. I'm criticizing the hypocrisy on your part, not the use of pejoratives.

You don't need to call the boy scouts "racist" to discuss the first amendment issues raised in the Dale case.

Sure. It is possible that calling the Boy Scouts racist was improper. Entirely possible. On that thin peg, your argument now hangs.

You don't need to call a local Christian college ignorant or say that another teacher should be kicked out of the district to make a point about the separation of church and state.

You don't need to do a damn thing. However, some things offer good examples, and if the other teacher was teaching creationism, then it was good and responsible of him to say that the teacher should be fired.

You don't need to refer to religious beliefs as "superstition" or the equivalent of believing in a "spaghetti monster" to teach the science of evolution, let alone European history.

Again, you don't 'need' to do a lot of stuff. So what?


It all reflects the same thing -- bad judgment and a failure to communicate the lesson in an appropriate manner. This should have been addressed locally between the school and the teacher.

Or not. Some of the points he's making are very good, even if people like you can't handle a teacher actually having opinions or politics. He might be a goddamn fantastic teacher who deserves accolades. You have no damn clue.

What you're right about is that it shouldn't have gone beyond the school. Which is why it's really fucking weird you're still combing through what he said to find stuff to hang on him.

778 Obdicut  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 3:10:57pm

re: #776 im_gumby_damnit

You don't need to refer to religious beliefs as "superstition" or the equivalent of believing in a "spaghetti monster" to teach the science of evolution, let alone European history.

This part of what you said is actually wrong. You do need to teach about religious beliefs being wrong, in order to teach European history. Unless you're just going to skip the Enlightenment, or think that somehow it can be taught without teaching about how it contradicted religious teaching.

779 Eventual Carrion  Mon, Aug 22, 2011 5:23:52am

re: #112 freetoken

Aha! This is just one more example of why we must defund public schools - if tax money has to be spent to educate children then parents should get vouchers so little Jimmy can be told the truth and not be attacked for what he believes!!

☔

Hell yeah, like I don't want to go to school with no ni66ers, wops, or chinks!!

///

780 [deleted]  Tue, Aug 23, 2011 1:35:37am

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