Right Wing Media Fall for ‘Paul Krugman’ Impersonator

Because they want so much to believe it
Wingnuts • Views: 37,919

Practically the entire right wing blogosphere was taken in by a hoax this morning, as a right wing foe of NY Times economist Paul Krugman created a Google+ account with Krugman’s name and proceeded to post outrageous comments: The Krugman Google Saga: Or, Why Fact-Checking is Important.

National Review, American Thinker, Pajamas Media, Newsbusters, Big Government — all of them fell for it.

Jump to bottom

214 comments
1 CuriousLurker  Wed, Aug 24, 2011 11:02:48am

*snort* Taken in by one of their own. Sweet!

2 Shiplord Kirel  Wed, Aug 24, 2011 11:04:22am

The idiocrat intelligentsia......

3 Ben G. Hazi  Wed, Aug 24, 2011 11:04:45am

People hear what they want to hear, it's human nature.

4 Kragar  Wed, Aug 24, 2011 11:05:16am
5 Gus  Wed, Aug 24, 2011 11:05:27am

Another important milestone for the brain trust of the American right wing and by extension, the Republican Party.

6 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Wed, Aug 24, 2011 11:05:37am

re: #4 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Image: 9551689.jpg

This thread is now over.

7 Sol Berdinowitz  Wed, Aug 24, 2011 11:05:50am

Modern media make it easy to disseminate information. It used to be taken for granted that printed media would fact-check their information before risking their professional reputation to publish it.

Although modern media also make it easy to fact-check information, a lot of the people spreading unfounded information have little concernn for any sort of professional reputation beyond gaining a great deal of notoriety.

8 ReamWorks SKG  Wed, Aug 24, 2011 11:07:13am

Well, he could have said that! Never let the facts stand in the way of a good story.


There are appropriate ways of making these points without impersonation.
I like, for example, the Walt Mossburg ("WSJ Tech Reporter") puppet reviews on YouTube.

Let 'em make a Krugman puppet.

9 Sonoran Supposition  Wed, Aug 24, 2011 11:08:24am

re: #4 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Image: 9551689.jpg

Love it!

10 jamesfirecat  Wed, Aug 24, 2011 11:10:35am

I covered this a while back with "Steven/Stephen"'s Law.

"Once a person becomes significantly polarized, they can no longer tell fact from fiction by logical means. What supports their views is facts, what is detrimental to them is fiction."

11 Killgore Trout  Wed, Aug 24, 2011 11:10:47am

Allahpundit claims it's fake but accurate.....

But if it wasn’t his profile, I’m mighty curious to know whether he agrees with the point made about the quake. It’s the same Keynesian argument as his in his post-9/11 piece. If the quake is different somehow, what makes it different?

Update: And here’s the man himself weighing in. It wasn’t his Google+ page. Duly noted, and I apologize for the error. But I hope he addresses the argument in the fake tweet on his blog. If World War II ended the Great Depression, why is it outrageous to think a Keynesian might see an economic boon to a natural calamity?

12 Sonoran Supposition  Wed, Aug 24, 2011 11:11:03am

I can understand tweeting out the fake comment on Twitter without verifying it, but actually posting it on your widely read blog? Man. That's not cool at all.

13 Gus  Wed, Aug 24, 2011 11:11:45am

re: #11 Killgore Trout

Allahpundit claims it's fake but accurate...

More worthless insight from Mr. Allahpundit.

14 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Wed, Aug 24, 2011 11:13:05am

re: #11 Killgore Trout

Allahpundit claims it's fake but accurate...

Face it, man, you got trolled hard. Don't wimp out, it's actually okay to admit that you're wrong instead of being a dick about it.

15 Kragar  Wed, Aug 24, 2011 11:13:14am

re: #11 Killgore Trout

Allahpundit claims it's fake but accurate...

Allahpundit smart, but a complete dumbass

16 Lidane  Wed, Aug 24, 2011 11:13:24am

re: #11 Killgore Trout

Allahpundit claims it's fake but accurate...

Allahpundit is also a raging tool.

17 Gus  Wed, Aug 24, 2011 11:14:30am

re: #15 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Allahpundit smart, but a complete dumbass

Fake Smart yet accurate stupid.

//

18 Lidane  Wed, Aug 24, 2011 11:15:39am

It's almost like the right wing blogs are in thrall to the Hypnotoad:

19 jamesfirecat  Wed, Aug 24, 2011 11:16:12am

re: #11 Killgore Trout

Allahpundit claims it's fake but accurate...

I didn't buy that line when it was applied to Bush's "guard papers", Obama's "Kenyian Birth Certificate" and I'm not about to start now.

20 Sol Berdinowitz  Wed, Aug 24, 2011 11:16:20am

"I hope he addresses the argument in the fake tweet".

Yes, of course, then he will have dragged himself down to your level and that will make you feel better.

21 Gus  Wed, Aug 24, 2011 11:17:14am

Fake, yet I'm going to throw this drivel to my readership in order to feed the Krugman derangement. -- Generic Winger Pundit

22 Varek Raith  Wed, Aug 24, 2011 11:17:14am

Coordination, how does it freaking work?

23 Iwouldprefernotto  Wed, Aug 24, 2011 11:17:58am

People that think Obama is a liberal will believe anything.


ps love the pencil thingy...

24 Kronocide  Wed, Aug 24, 2011 11:18:03am

re: #14 thedopefishlives

Face it, man, you got trolled hard. Don't wimp out, it's actually okay to admit that you're wrong instead of being a dick about it.

Admitting you're wrong and not being a dick about it is the manly and patriotic thing to do.

25 recusancy  Wed, Aug 24, 2011 11:18:13am

Arguments From Personal Incredulity

People write and say, “I can’t believe that you are asserting that X. You must be an idiot.” Here X might be the paradox of thrift, the claim that a rise in desired saving leads to lower investment (which is closely linked to the case for fiscal stimulus, which in turn is closely linked to the argument that wars and other bad things can be expansionary.) Or it might be the paradox of flexibility, which says that under current conditions a fall in wages would lead to lower,not higher employment and output.

The point, of course, is that your personal incredulity counts for nothing. I’m basing what I say on a model; the model may not be right, but it does represent some hard thinking conditioned by evidence. If you have a different model, fine; but if all you have to counter my model is a set of prejudices, you don’t have an argument.

26 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Wed, Aug 24, 2011 11:20:09am

More dumb, stupid, conservative dupes and their feckless followers...duped again.

27 Martinsmithy  Wed, Aug 24, 2011 11:21:05am
Williamson got closest to the truth: It was a joke. The Google+ account was a hoax created by 2010 college grad Carlos Graterol, to make fun of the "many misguided beliefs that Paul Krugman holds, defends, and espouses on a daily basis."

Actually, Paul Krugman does have a lot of misguided views regarding economics, IMHO. In his own way he is as predictable and erroneous as Milton Friedman ever was - the truth of economics lies in between these two gentlemen.

One area where Krugman definitely departs of left-wing orthodoxy is in his championing of free trade agreements between sovereign nations, a concept which the economically illiterate left refuses to countenance.

All that being said, creating a hoax Krugman site is NOT an effective way of countering his arguments!

28 Lidane  Wed, Aug 24, 2011 11:21:14am

re: #23 Iwouldprefernotto

People that think Obama is a liberal will believe anything.

Seriously. They clearly didn't listen to the guy when he ran for POTUS. He's a centrist/moderate.

29 tnguitarist  Wed, Aug 24, 2011 11:21:29am

If these people feel their ideas stand on such firm ground, why do they need to do things like this?

30 Gus  Wed, Aug 24, 2011 11:21:40am

re: #26 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

More dumb, stupid, conservative dupes and their feckless followers...duped again.

The wingularity has been breached!

Butthurt Level: Massive

31 recusancy  Wed, Aug 24, 2011 11:22:12am

re: #27 Martinsmithy

Actually, Paul Krugman does have a lot of misguided views regarding economics, IMHO. In his own way he is as predictable and erroneous as Milton Friedman ever was - the truth of economics lies in between these two gentlemen.

One area where Krugman definitely departs of left-wing orthodoxy is in his championing of free trade agreements between sovereign nations, a concept which the economically illiterate left refuses to countenance.

All that being said, creating a hoax Krugman site is NOT an effective way of countering his arguments!

Which views of his are misguided?

32 BARACK THE VOTE  Wed, Aug 24, 2011 11:22:40am

re: #29 tnguitarist

If these people feel their ideas stand on such firm ground, why do they need to do things like this?

because Shut up, that's why.

/wingnut logic

33 Lidane  Wed, Aug 24, 2011 11:22:43am

re: #29 tnguitarist

If these people feel their ideas stand on such firm ground, why do they need to do things like this?

What ideas? When was the last time they had an idea?

All these nutjobs have is stunts like this. They don't have anything else to offer.

34 Kronocide  Wed, Aug 24, 2011 11:22:59am

Should Stossel have Faux Krugman on Fox for a Faux Debate?

Faux Sho!

35 tnguitarist  Wed, Aug 24, 2011 11:23:05am

re: #27 Martinsmithy

a concept which the economically illiterate left refuses to countenance.

The entire left?

36 Lidane  Wed, Aug 24, 2011 11:23:38am

re: #27 Martinsmithy

Actually, Paul Krugman does have a lot of misguided views regarding economics, IMHO. In his own way he is as predictable and erroneous as Milton Friedman ever was - the truth of economics lies in between these two gentlemen.

So if both Friedman and Krugman are wrong, who could possibly be right?

37 Kragar  Wed, Aug 24, 2011 11:23:59am

re: #32 iceweasel

because Shut up, that's why.

/wingnut logic

"Shut up he explained." was my HS yearbook quote.

38 recusancy  Wed, Aug 24, 2011 11:26:34am

The Anti-Keynesian Two-Step

The fact that breaking windows would make a society poorer (fewer windows) is precisely why nobody ever proposes stimulating the economy by deliberately smashing windows. But the way the dialogue works is that first a Keynesian observes that fiscal stimulus can increase growth in a depressed economy. Second, as an attempted reductio, a conservative says “if that was true, then you could increase growth by breaking a bunch of windows.” Third, the Keynesian accurately points out that you could, in fact, increase growth by breaking windows. Fourth, the conservative accuses Keynesians of wanting to break windows or believing that window-breaking increases wealth.
39 Lidane  Wed, Aug 24, 2011 11:27:17am

re: #35 tnguitarist

The entire left?

Sure. Only if you ignore history:

[Link: upload.wikimedia.org...]

40 BARACK THE VOTE  Wed, Aug 24, 2011 11:27:31am

re: #37 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

"Shut up he explained." was my HS yearbook quote.

That's hilarious!

41 Shiplord Kirel  Wed, Aug 24, 2011 11:28:06am

If a 9.0 earthquake did flatten the eastern seaboard I'm sure God and the free market would take care of it.
-channeling David Barton, Ron Paul, etc.

42 jamesfirecat  Wed, Aug 24, 2011 11:29:17am

re: #41 Shiplord Kirel

If a 9.0 earthquake did flatten the eastern seaboard I'm sure God and the free market would take care of it.
-channeling David Barton, Ron Paul, etc.

The free market (and mormons) would rejoice at how Utah is now beach front property!

(Too mean?)

43 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Aug 24, 2011 11:29:58am

Gold's down

How is everyone this afternoon?

44 Martinsmithy  Wed, Aug 24, 2011 11:30:18am

re: #35 tnguitarist

The entire left?

No, just the economically illiterate left - the ones who don't understand that free trade is not a zero-sum game as far as economic growth is concerned. They are the ones who are opposed to all free trade agreements with other nations.

45 Iwouldprefernotto  Wed, Aug 24, 2011 11:30:53am

re: #42 jamesfirecat

The free market (and mormons) would rejoice at how Utah is now beach front property!

(Too mean?)

Not mean enough.

46 Winny Spencer  Wed, Aug 24, 2011 11:31:07am

re: #42 jamesfirecat

The free market (and mormons) would rejoice at how Utah is now beach front property!

(Too mean?)

Hmm, maybe.

47 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Aug 24, 2011 11:31:15am

re: #36 Lidane

So if both Friedman and Krugman are wrong, who could possibly be right?

Me, I'm right.

49 blueraven  Wed, Aug 24, 2011 11:31:54am

re: #44 Martinsmithy

No, just the economically illiterate left - the ones who don't understand that free trade is not a zero-sum game as far as economic growth is concerned. They are the ones who are opposed to all free trade agreements with other nations.

And none on "The Right" are opposed to free trade agreements?

50 Gus  Wed, Aug 24, 2011 11:32:04am

re: #41 Shiplord Kirel

If a 9.0 earthquake did flatten the eastern seaboard I'm sure God and the free market would take care of it.
-channeling David Barton, Ron Paul, etc.

If enough people die due to development in seismic zones then society won't have to pay for the high costs of seismic safety in the long run because people will simply stop building there as a survival response. I call this Seismic/Socio-Economic Darwinism.

//

51 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Wed, Aug 24, 2011 11:32:07am

re: #4 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Image: 9551689.jpg

heh, me gusta

52 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Aug 24, 2011 11:32:24am

re: #48 lawhawk

6.8-magnitude earthquake hits northern Peru, USGS reports

It's the end, I"m tellinya!

/

53 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Wed, Aug 24, 2011 11:32:30am

re: #48 lawhawk

6.8-magnitude earthquake hits northern Peru, USGS reports

Woof. Is it earthquake season or something?/

54 Sol Berdinowitz  Wed, Aug 24, 2011 11:32:47am

re: #44 Martinsmithy

I get the "not a zero-sum game" arguments re "free trade".

the thing i have problems with is not the lower labor costs of doing business with other nations (that should be our incentive to work more efficiently) but rather that we are allowing them to compete on lower standards of safety and environmental protection.

and in that respect, we are really shooting ourselves in the foot.

55 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Aug 24, 2011 11:33:28am

re: #19 jamesfirecat

I didn't buy that line when it was applied to Bush's "guard papers", Obama's "Kenyian Birth Certificate" and I'm not about to start now.

Agreed. The nature of the internet leads people to post what they think looks good without checking into it. Everyone wants to be the one to call out "Firt!".

56 Gus  Wed, Aug 24, 2011 11:33:43am

re: #44 Martinsmithy

No, just the economically illiterate left - the ones who don't understand that free trade is not a zero-sum game as far as economic growth is concerned. They are the ones who are opposed to all free trade agreements with other nations.

Yeah. I guess I must have been imagining things when I saw Bill Clinton push for and finally sign NAFTA.

57 Martinsmithy  Wed, Aug 24, 2011 11:34:32am

re: #31 recusancy

Which views of his are misguided?

His belief that yet another massive stimulus package generating another trillion dollar dollop of national debt takes Keynesan economics to the breaking point. And that breaking point is the amount of national debt we already carry, and the interest payments necessary to service it. Given the debt colossus, the use of a massive stimulus to stimulate the economy is ill-advised.

58 Interesting Times  Wed, Aug 24, 2011 11:34:51am

re: #55 Dark_Falcon

Agreed. The nature of the internet leads people to post what they think looks good without checking into it. Everyone wants to be the one to call out "Firt!".

Quick! Now's your chance to test out the handy new pencil icon! :)

59 recusancy  Wed, Aug 24, 2011 11:34:54am

re: #49 blueraven

And none on "The Right" are opposed to free trade agreements?

None. They all wish we freely traded with Cuba, Iran and North Korea.

60 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Aug 24, 2011 11:35:03am

re: #56 Gus 802

Yeah. I guess I must have been imagining things when I saw Bill Clinton push for and finally sign NAFTA.

That was the librul's attempt at removing borders between Canada, the US and Mexico. All part of Soro'sOpenSocietyEvilPlan.

Don't you know anything?

/

61 NJDhockeyfan  Wed, Aug 24, 2011 11:35:13am

OT:

Live feed of the propane tanker fire in Lincoln, Ca. They say if it explodes, it could destroy around 5,000 houses.

62 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Wed, Aug 24, 2011 11:35:42am

re: #58 publicityStunted

Already used it a couple of times - and loving it!

63 Martinsmithy  Wed, Aug 24, 2011 11:36:27am

re: #49 blueraven

And none on "The Right" are opposed to free trade agreements?

A few are. But most opposition to such agreements comes from the left of the political spectrum.

64 recusancy  Wed, Aug 24, 2011 11:36:54am

re: #57 Martinsmithy

His belief that yet another massive stimulus package generating another trillion dollar dollop of national debt takes Keynesan economics to the breaking point. And that breaking point is the amount of national debt we already carry, and the interest payments necessary to service it. Given the debt colossus, the use of a massive stimulus to stimulate the economy is ill-advised.

Ah. So you're arguing from personal incredulity.

65 Shiplord Kirel  Wed, Aug 24, 2011 11:37:04am

Actually, the overdue "big one" in the New Madrid Seismic Zone doesn't bear thinking about. St. Louis and Memphis alone have thousands of old masonry buildings that would crumble to dust at the first shock. The economic aftermath would be cataclysmic as well, with a large part of the country's transport infrastructure blocked or destroyed by flooding and collapsed bridges.

"In a report filed in November 2008, The U.S. Federal Emergency Management Agency warned that a serious earthquake in the New Madrid Seismic Zone could result in "the highest economic losses due to a natural disaster in the United States," further predicting "widespread and catastrophic" damage across Alabama, Arkansas, Illinois, Indiana, Kansas, Kentucky, Mississippi, Missouri, Oklahoma, Texas, and particularly Tennessee, where a 7.7 magnitude quake or greater would cause damage to tens of thousands of structures affecting water distribution, transportation systems, and other vital infrastructure. The earthquake is expected to also result in many thousands of fatalities, with more than 4,000 of the fatalities expected in Memphis alone. According to some scientists, however, that is nothing compared to what an 8.0 earthquake could do to the New Madrid Region. An earthquake of that size on the New Madrid Fault would destroy 60 percent of Memphis, killing tens of thousands and causing over $50 billion dollars in property damage in the city alone.
66 jamesfirecat  Wed, Aug 24, 2011 11:37:18am

re: #57 Martinsmithy

His belief that yet another massive stimulus package generating another trillion dollar dollop of national debt takes Keynesan economics to the breaking point. And that breaking point is the amount of national debt we already carry, and the interest payments necessary to service it. Given the debt colossus, the use of a massive stimulus to stimulate the economy is ill-advised.

America can easily bear another trillion dollars in debt.

The only reason our economy looks close to breaking is because Republicans in Congress are holding it hostage for their own so-con/taxophobe agenda.

The sooner we can get the economy moving again the better off we'll be.

Spend money, grow the economy, shrink the debt.

Why is the current amount of debt we have "the breaking point" when we were still triple A rated a few months ago and NOBODY was worried about denying us future loans?

67 Gus  Wed, Aug 24, 2011 11:37:37am

And hey. Why worry about free trade agreements that the government slaps together. Nothing can ever go wrong or hurt the American people:

Furthermore from 1994 to 2007, net manufacturing employment has declined by 3,654,000, and during this period several other free trade agreements have been concluded or expanded.

Don't worry. All free trade agreements are good. Including those passed by President Clinton. In fact they're perfect. And "the left" are simply wrong in opposing or highlighting the negative impacts therein. (sarcasm)

68 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Aug 24, 2011 11:38:27am

re: #65 Shiplord Kirel

Actually, the overdue "big one" in the New Madrid Seismic Zone doesn't bear thinking about. St. Louis and Memphis alone have thousands of old masonry buildings that would crumble to dust at the first shock. The economic aftermath would be cataclysmic as well, with a large part of the country's transport infrastructure blocked or destroyed by flooding and collapsed bridges.

Austin Blue explained all of that to me yesterday. My eyes glazed over the third time I read the word "granite".

69 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Aug 24, 2011 11:40:55am
70 Gus  Wed, Aug 24, 2011 11:41:16am

So yeah. Don't worry about trade agreements. Don't read about the negative impacts and studies. All you need to know is that "the left" and OMG the unions! are opposed to them so it must be good.

Keep watching TV and shut up!

71 recusancy  Wed, Aug 24, 2011 11:41:37am
72 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Aug 24, 2011 11:41:51am

re: #56 Gus 802

Yeah. I guess I must have been imagining things when I saw Bill Clinton push for and finally sign NAFTA.

Bill Clinton has never been the kind of leftist Martinsmithy was talking about. Support for or opposition to free trade is not uniform on either side of the political spectrum.

73 Bulworth  Wed, Aug 24, 2011 11:42:02am

"Yeah but the Google account didn't say 'fake' so how were we supposed to know it was a hoax?"

//

74 Martinsmithy  Wed, Aug 24, 2011 11:42:06am

re: #56 Gus 802

Yeah. I guess I must have been imagining things when I saw Bill Clinton push for and finally sign NAFTA.

Only in the fevered imaginations of wingnut world was Bill Clinton a "leftist" President. It should be noted that the 1993 vote on NAFTA was approved by the House of Representatives 234-200, and only 102 of the 258 Democrats in the House voted for it, while 132 of the 177 Republicans voted "aye." Meanwhile, the Senate approved it 61-38, with 27 of the 57 Democrats in favor and 34 of the 43 Republicans. My source for these materials is the Wikipedia pages on NAFTA and the 103rd Congress

75 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Aug 24, 2011 11:42:51am

NO Gaga in China.

Among the Western acts, Lady Gaga has six banned tracks: The Edge of Glory, Hair, Marry the Night, Americano, Judas and Bloody Mary. Beyonce's Run the World (Girls) has also been outlawed as well as Katy Perry's Last Friday Night, which has lyrics about a menage a trois.

76 Sol Berdinowitz  Wed, Aug 24, 2011 11:43:23am

re: #69 ggt

The French are imposing a higher tax on the wealthy.

Time to topple the Statue of Liberty, load it on the deck of the aircraft carrier Charles de Gaulle and send it back to where it came from! We don't need that kind of liberty, especially the kind that comes so closely equated with equality and brotherhood! (the later being "progressive" concepts)

/

77 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Aug 24, 2011 11:44:05am

The Wingtards are so far Right that they don't know "True Left".

To them, they are moderates, so everything to the left of them is Librul.

78 Gus  Wed, Aug 24, 2011 11:44:51am

re: #74 Martinsmithy

Only in the fevered imaginations of wingnut world was Bill Clinton a "leftist" President. It should be noted that the 1993 vote on NAFTA was approved by the House of Representatives 234-200, and only 102 of the 258 Democrats in the House voted for it, while 132 of the 177 Republicans voted "aye." Meanwhile, the Senate approved it 61-38, with 27 of the 57 Democrats in favor and 34 of the 43 Republicans. My source for these materials is the Wikipedia pages on NAFTA and the 103rd Congress

NAFTA resulted in the loss of over 3 million manufacturing jobs in this country. Possibly more. It's also screwing over poor Mexican fathers.

79 jamesfirecat  Wed, Aug 24, 2011 11:44:59am

re: #74 Martinsmithy

Only in the fevered imaginations of wingnut world was Bill Clinton a "leftist" President. It should be noted that the 1993 vote on NAFTA was approved by the House of Representatives 234-200, and only 102 of the 258 Democrats in the House voted for it, while 132 of the 177 Republicans voted "aye." Meanwhile, the Senate approved it 61-38, with 27 of the 57 Democrats in favor and 34 of the 43 Republicans. My source for these materials is the Wikipedia pages on NAFTA and the 103rd Congress

Given the way he shrunk the deficit Bill Clinton was far more "fiscally conservative" president than any recent Republican one.

80 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Aug 24, 2011 11:45:25am

re: #76 ralphieboy

Time to topple the Statue of Liberty, load it on the deck of the aircraft carrier Charles de Gaulle and send it back to where it came from! We don't need that kind of liberty, especially the kind that comes so closely equated with equality and brotherhood! (the later being "progressive" concepts)

/

Well, I like Lady Liberty and plan on keeping her.

81 Sol Berdinowitz  Wed, Aug 24, 2011 11:46:32am

re: #80 ggt

Well, I like Lady Liberty and plan on keeping her.


Are you really gonna keep those poor, tired, hungry masses yearning to freeload off the welfare system?

/

82 blueraven  Wed, Aug 24, 2011 11:46:39am

re: #63 Martinsmithy

A few are. But most opposition to such agreements comes from the left of the political spectrum.

Well even if they are for FT, some refuse to vote on it.

McConnell To Vote Against Free Trade Deals If They Include Aid For Workers Who Lose Their Jobs

For months, Senate Republicans have been carping that the administration was not moving fast enough in submitting free trade agreements with South Korea, Colombia, and Panama for congressional consideration. And one of the loudest voices in favor of moving the agreements has been Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell (R-KY). “We need to change course. And a good place to start is with trade,” McConnell said just a few weeks ago.

The administration had been refusing to move the pacts forward without Congress reauthorizing the Trade Adjustment Assistance program, which aids workers who lose their jobs due to international trade. Republicans allowed an expansion of TAA to expire back in February (even as they were advocating for their constituents to receive TAA payments).

Congressional leaders yesterday struck a deal with the White House that will reauthorize TAA in return for moving on the pending agreements. But McConnell is so adamantly opposed to helping workers who are harmed by trade that he vowed to vote against a free trade deal that includes a reauthorization of trade assistance:


So if it helps American workers to get retraining...no deal!

[Link: thinkprogress.org...]

83 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Aug 24, 2011 11:46:40am

re: #79 jamesfirecat

Given the way he shrunk the deficit Bill Clinton was far more "fiscally conservative" president than any recent Republican one.

I don't think it is correct to compare the fiscal decisions of the two POTUS's. With 9/11, not all things are equal.

Regardless of what you think of the War in Iraq--Bush was bound to spend more than Clinton because of "current events".

84 recusancy  Wed, Aug 24, 2011 11:48:20am

re: #83 ggt

I don't think it is correct to compare the fiscal decisions of the two POTUS's. With 9/11, not all things are equal.

Regardless of what you think of the War in Iraq--Bush was bound to spend more than Clinton because of "current events".

Then why did he cut taxes?

85 blueraven  Wed, Aug 24, 2011 11:48:49am

re: #83 ggt

I don't think it is correct to compare the fiscal decisions of the two POTUS's. With 9/11, not all things are equal.

Regardless of what you think of the War in Iraq--Bush was bound to spend more than Clinton because of "current events".

He didn't have to issue tax cuts at the same time.

86 Sol Berdinowitz  Wed, Aug 24, 2011 11:48:53am

re: #82 blueraven

Well even if they are for FT, some refuse to vote on it.

McConnell To Vote Against Free Trade Deals If They Include Aid For Workers Who Lose Their Jobs


So if it helps American workers to get retraining...no deal!

[Link: thinkprogress.org...]

This is what Free Market ideology is all about.

I see a key role for the government in cushioning the social effects of natural disasters, political, or economic changes that affect those who are not in a position to directly influence them.

The Free market ideologues do not.

87 jamesfirecat  Wed, Aug 24, 2011 11:49:01am

re: #83 ggt

I don't think it is correct to compare the fiscal decisions of the two POTUS's. With 9/11, not all things are equal.

Regardless of what you think of the War in Iraq--Bush was bound to spend more than Clinton because of "current events".

If Bush wanted to be "fiscally conservative" and keep America from racking up debt the way he did all he had to do was what every other president in American history did.... raise taxes when we go to war.

Last time I checked being "Fiscally Conservative" was about making your inputs match your outputs not handcuffing yourself to spend as little as possible....

88 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Aug 24, 2011 11:51:18am

re: #81 ralphieboy

Are you really gonna keep those poor, tired, hungry masses yearning to freeload off the welfare system?

/

The New Colossus

Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame,
With conquering limbs astride from land to land;
Here at our sea-washed, sunset gates shall stand
A mighty woman with a torch, whose flame
Is the imprisoned lightning, and her name
Mother of Exiles. From her beacon-hand
Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command
The air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame.
"Keep, ancient lands, your storied pomp!" cries she
With silent lips. "Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"
Emma Lazarus, 1883

89 Martinsmithy  Wed, Aug 24, 2011 11:51:23am

re: #64 recusancy

Ah. So you're arguing from personal incredulity.

Classic Keynesian economics states that governments should run surpluses during good economic times, and deficits during bad economic times. The surpluses should be used to pay off the deficits. While a modest national debt as percentage of GDP is actually good, the current, rising level is considered by economic orthodoxy to be too high. That's because the U.S. government has run deficits even when the economy was booming (and no, the later Clinton years were only years of surplus if social security is excluded from the calculation).

In other words, Krugman's advice, while sound in a classical Keynesian environment, is unsound when given at a time of such high national debt levels in the United States.

90 Martinsmithy  Wed, Aug 24, 2011 11:54:12am

re: #83 ggt

I don't think it is correct to compare the fiscal decisions of the two POTUS's. With 9/11, not all things are equal.

Regardless of what you think of the War in Iraq--Bush was bound to spend more than Clinton because of "current events".

Bush's spending wasn't the problem. Bush's tax policies were the problem. He essentially paid for the war with money borrowed from future generations. Every other war the U.S. has ever entered has been accompanied by rising taxes implementing a "shared sacrifice" philosophy.

91 jamesfirecat  Wed, Aug 24, 2011 11:54:17am

re: #89 Martinsmithy

Classic Keynesian economics states that governments should run surpluses during good economic times, and deficits during bad economic times. The surpluses should be used to pay off the deficits. While a modest national debt as percentage of GDP is actually good, the current, rising level is considered by economic orthodoxy to be too high. That's because the U.S. government has run deficits even when the economy was booming (and no, the later Clinton years were only years of surplus if social security is excluded from the calculation).

In other words, Krugman's advice, while sound in a classical Keynesian environment, is unsound when given at a time of such high national debt levels in the United States.

Sorry, I'm more afraid/worried about damn near double digit unemployment than other nations suddenly thinking "hey we should really call in our debts on the US!".

92 jaunte  Wed, Aug 24, 2011 11:54:26am

Bruce Bartlett:

While a plausible strategy at the time it was formulated, ["starve the beast"] became a substitute for serious budget control efforts, reduced the political cost of deficits, encouraged fiscally irresponsible tax cutting and ultimately made both spending and deficits larger.
[Link: www.forbes.com...]
93 Targetpractice  Wed, Aug 24, 2011 11:54:31am

re: #88 ggt

I actually got shivers as I read that. Even today, it's a powerful message.

94 Gus  Wed, Aug 24, 2011 11:55:15am

In conclusion. The left and the unions have perfectly legitimate grievances regarding free trade agreements as they may often negatively the American worker and America as a whole. Including workers and people of other nations affected.

95 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Aug 24, 2011 11:55:22am

re: #85 blueraven

He didn't have to issue tax cuts at the same time.

The tax cuts had been approved before 9/11. To rescind them afterwards would have trigger an uproar in the GOP while simultaneously enspiriting the Democrats. Political issues made calling off the tax cuts impossible.

96 Killgore Trout  Wed, Aug 24, 2011 11:56:09am

re: #92 jaunte

Bruce Bartlett:

Cloward-Piven! Rules for Radicals! Allliiinnnskkkyyy!

97 jaunte  Wed, Aug 24, 2011 11:56:30am

re: #96 Killgore Trout

Empiricism!

98 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Aug 24, 2011 11:56:32am

Evangelicals Engaged in Spiritual Warfare.

Ya Think?

"Two ministries in the movement planned and orchestrated Texas Gov. Rick Perry's recent prayer rally, where apostles and prophets from around the nation spoke or appeared onstage. The event was patterned after The Call, held at locations around the globe and led by Lou Engle, who has served in the Apostolic Council of Prophetic Elders of the NAR. Other NAR apostles endorsed Perry's event, including two who lead a 50-state "prayer warrior" network. Thomas Muthee, the Kenyan pastor who anointed Sarah Palin at the Wasilla Assembly of God Church in 2005, while praying for Jesus to protect her from the spirit of witchcraft, is also part of this movement.

On Wednesday's Fresh Air, Rachel Tabachnick, who researches the political impact of the religious right, joins Terry Gross for a discussion about the growing movement and its influence and connections in the political world.

"

99 recusancy  Wed, Aug 24, 2011 11:56:36am

re: #89 Martinsmithy

Classic Keynesian economics states that governments should run surpluses during good economic times, and deficits during bad economic times. The surpluses should be used to pay off the deficits. While a modest national debt as percentage of GDP is actually good, the current, rising level is considered by economic orthodoxy to be too high. That's because the U.S. government has run deficits even when the economy was booming (and no, the later Clinton years were only years of surplus if social security is excluded from the calculation).

In other words, Krugman's advice, while sound in a classical Keynesian environment, is unsound when given at a time of such high national debt levels in the United States.

Hence his desire for raised taxes on the rich. And yes, that would make a big difference. Page 4

100 Sol Berdinowitz  Wed, Aug 24, 2011 11:57:02am

re: #89 Martinsmithy

I remember hearing Rush Limbaugh comment on Clinton's surplus to the effect that it simply meant that the governmnet was taking more money away from us than it needed to operate, and that was immoral...

101 jamesfirecat  Wed, Aug 24, 2011 11:57:11am

re: #95 Dark_Falcon

The tax cuts had been approved before 9/11. To rescind them afterwards would have trigger an uproar in the GOP while simultaneously enspiriting the Democrats. Political issues made calling off the tax cuts impossible.

Putting what is good for the country behind what might enliven ones political opponents makes you a hollow panderer who is unworthy to be president in my book.

102 blueraven  Wed, Aug 24, 2011 11:57:37am

re: #95 Dark_Falcon

The tax cuts had been approved before 9/11. To rescind them afterwards would have trigger an uproar in the GOP while simultaneously enspiriting the Democrats. Political issues made calling off the tax cuts impossible.

Fuck that. We had been attacked and you are saying it was an acceptable political move? This kind of thinking is why we are in such a mess right now.

103 recusancy  Wed, Aug 24, 2011 11:57:59am

re: #95 Dark_Falcon

The tax cuts had been approved before 9/11. To rescind them afterwards would have trigger an uproar in the GOP while simultaneously enspiriting the Democrats. Political issues made calling off the tax cuts impossible.

And there you have it. We have a huge deficit because republicans wanted to put party before country.

104 Gus  Wed, Aug 24, 2011 11:58:38am

re: #95 Dark_Falcon

The tax cuts had been approved before 9/11. To rescind them afterwards would have trigger an uproar in the GOP while simultaneously enspiriting the Democrats. Political issues made calling off the tax cuts impossible.

Politics over country. How patriotic of them.

105 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Aug 24, 2011 11:58:51am

This is where I get confused.

"Bushes" Tax Cuts, "Bush's Spending"

"Obama's Budget", "Obama's Debt Problem".

I thought Congress controlled this stuff.

106 Shiplord Kirel  Wed, Aug 24, 2011 11:59:10am

re: #77 ggt

The Wingtards are so far Right that they don't know "True Left".

To them, they are moderates, so everything to the left of them is Librul.

Today's conservatives represent a strain in American thought that goes back to the Civil War. To them anyone who thinks the abolition of slavery was cause for violence is a liberal. For decades, this strain was submerged by the Buckley/Goldwater brand of conservatism, though Goldwater did recognize it enough to use it to break the "Solid South" in his 1964 campaign. It has burst forth again in recent years, like some kind of prehistoric monster. The vector for this has largely been the ready-made network of fundamentalist and evangelical churches that extend into every community in the country. Thanks to a proliferation of mass communication outlets, this network served as the framework for an organized political force in the 1980s, the so-called religious right. With its simple appeals and dramatic style, this sub-culture is ideally tailored to the age of saturation media. It has therefore grown by leaps and bounds. Essentially, isolated pockets of bigotry and ignorance can now be sanitized and mobilized into a national force.

107 Sol Berdinowitz  Wed, Aug 24, 2011 11:59:18am

re: #83 ggt

I don't think it is correct to compare the fiscal decisions of the two POTUS's. With 9/11, not all things are equal.

Regardless of what you think of the War in Iraq--Bush was bound to spend more than Clinton because of "current events".


This also begs the question of how vital the Iraq War was to US interests...

108 goddamnedfrank  Wed, Aug 24, 2011 11:59:49am

re: #95 Dark_Falcon

The tax cuts had been approved before 9/11. To rescind them afterwards would have trigger an uproar in the GOP while simultaneously enspiriting the Democrats. Political issues made calling off the tax cuts impossible.

This doesn't explain the 2003 tax cuts.

109 recusancy  Wed, Aug 24, 2011 11:59:55am

re: #107 ralphieboy

This also begs the question of how vital the Iraq War was to US interests...

It wasn't. At all.

110 Martinsmithy  Wed, Aug 24, 2011 12:00:11pm

re: #94 Gus 802

In conclusion. The left and the unions have perfectly legitimate grievances regarding free trade agreements as they may often negatively the American worker and America as a whole. Including workers and people of other nations affected.

This is classic and erroneous "zero sum game" economic thinking. Free trade agreements result in lost jobs in industries that are outcompeted by foreign economic actors, but result in numerically greater numbers of jobs in industries that can outcompete other foreign economic actors, because of the new markets that are opened up. This is really basic Macroeconomics 101, and the refusal of the left to acknowledge this reality is utterly reprehensible.

Now if you are talking about money for retraining workers who lose their jobs in the "old" industries for jobs in the "new" industries, then I'm all for it. But creating an economic "hothouse" of protectionism for national industries is really a recipe for economic stagnation and eventual disaster.

111 Renaissance_Man  Wed, Aug 24, 2011 12:00:33pm

re: #95 Dark_Falcon

The tax cuts had been approved before 9/11. To rescind them afterwards would have trigger an uproar in the GOP while simultaneously enspiriting the Democrats. Political issues made calling off the tax cuts impossible.

So 9/11 was so world-changing that every idea of national security and due process needed to be re-examined, but not so world-changing that a President couldn't amend an economic proposal?

112 KingKenrod  Wed, Aug 24, 2011 12:01:26pm

re: #108 goddamnedfrank

This doesn't explain the 2003 tax cuts.

They were an acceleration of the already passed 2001 tax cuts. The economy sucked at the time. I know because I was laid off in early 2003.

113 recusancy  Wed, Aug 24, 2011 12:02:24pm

Some times people accidently let the truth slip out.

114 Sol Berdinowitz  Wed, Aug 24, 2011 12:02:55pm

re: #112 KingKenrod

I know because I was laid off in early 2003.

You lost your job because you were lazy and undermotivated, don't blame Bush!!!


/

115 blueraven  Wed, Aug 24, 2011 12:02:58pm

re: #110 Martinsmithy

This is classic and erroneous "zero sum game" economic thinking. Free trade agreements result in lost jobs in industries that are outcompeted by foreign economic actors, but result in numerically greater numbers of jobs in industries that can outcompete other foreign economic actors, because of the new markets that are opened up. This is really basic Macroeconomics 101, and the refusal of the left to acknowledge this reality is utterly reprehensible.

Now if you are talking about money for retraining workers who lose their jobs in the "old" industries for jobs in the "new" industries, then I'm all for it. But creating an economic "hothouse" of protectionism for national industries is really a recipe for economic stagnation and eventual disaster.

Maybe you are for it. But your party is not.

116 jaunte  Wed, Aug 24, 2011 12:03:30pm

re: #105 ggt

This is where I get confused.

"Bushes" Tax Cuts,

It's just easier to say than "The Economic Growth and Tax Relief Reconciliation Act of 2001 and The Jobs and Growth Tax Relief Reconciliation Act of 2003, signed into law by President George W. Bush."

117 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Aug 24, 2011 12:03:55pm
Rick Perry's Rally

The organizers of Perry's rally were from ministries founded by two apostles/prophets of the movement — The Call, and the International House of Prayer founded by Mike Bickle. Bickle, who led part of Perry's event, has claimed that Oprah Winfrey is a precursor of the Antichrist, and Engle has claimed that gay people are controlled by "demonic spirits." Both have served on the Council of Prophetic Elders initiated by Wagner.

"Lou Engle [has spoken] at length about how one of his sons has started an International House of Prayer in the Castro district of San Francisco and that his son is now expelling demons from homosexuals, and supposedly then this cures them of their homosexuality," says Tabachnick. "He has also held [prayer rallies] around the world."

One of Engle's previous rallies took place in Uganda in May 2010, shortly after an anti-homosexuality bill had been proposed.

The Uganda Topic keeps popping up on the GOP side.

Interesting. . . .

118 Martinsmithy  Wed, Aug 24, 2011 12:04:05pm

As for the argument that free trade negatively impacts the poorer nations involved, I would ask you - is it better for a Vietnamese peasant to work in a sweatshop for low wages, or to starve to death? Every modern nation that has risen from the mire of poverty has started at this level, including the United States. As low-paid workers still manage to better their lives, they pass on these benefits to their children in the form of better education and healthier lives, and those children take the next step to higher paid and less demanding and stressful jobs.

The United States itself once started along this path.

To deny poor nations the ability to lift themselves out of abject poverty by refusing to trade with them is the height of global irresponsibility.

119 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Tears  Wed, Aug 24, 2011 12:05:02pm

re: #50 Gus 802

If enough people die due to development in seismic zones then society won't have to pay for the high costs of seismic safety in the long run because people will simply stop building there as a survival response. I call this Seismic/Socio-Economic Darwinism.

//

And that has worked sooooo well historically on flood plains where the damage is much more common and predictable to occur.

120 Sol Berdinowitz  Wed, Aug 24, 2011 12:05:05pm

re: #117 ggt

The Uganda Topic keeps popping up on the GOP side.

Interesting. . . .

Would you rather have Kenya?

121 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Aug 24, 2011 12:05:27pm

re: #116 jaunte

It's just easier to say than "The Economic Growth and Tax Relief Reconciliation Act of 2001 and The Jobs and Growth Tax Relief Reconciliation Act of 2003, signed into law by President George W. Bush."

I Agree, LOL.

People keep bitching about this POTUS or that POTUS, instead of bitching about the idiots on Captiol Hill.

122 Martinsmithy  Wed, Aug 24, 2011 12:05:53pm

re: #115 blueraven

re: #110 Martinsmithy


Maybe you are for it. But your party is not.

Unfortunately for your hypothesis, I am not a member of the Republican party.

Or a member of the Libertarian party or any similar grouping, for that matter.

Not everyone to the left of the political spectrum is economically illiterate. Bill Clinton and Barack Obama (and Paul Krugman, for that matter) are proof of that.

123 lawhawk  Wed, Aug 24, 2011 12:06:31pm

re: #61 NJDhockeyfan

The concern is that it could cause a Bleve - a massive explosion. That's why they're going to try and remove and burn off the remaining propane:

124 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Aug 24, 2011 12:06:36pm

re: #120 ralphieboy

Would you rather have Kenya?

I think the Anti-Homosexual Bill in Uganda is going to worm itself into being an election topic for 2012. Two candidates now are tied to it.

125 makeitstop  Wed, Aug 24, 2011 12:07:03pm

re: #11 Killgore Trout

Allahpundit claims it's fake but accurate...

That just gave me a headache. AP is actually demanding that Krugman defend something he didn't say?

Holy crap, that's dumb.

126 jaunte  Wed, Aug 24, 2011 12:07:03pm

re: #118 Martinsmithy

It's probably more complicated than that. For instance, large trade deals between Venezuela and the US have effectively destroyed the small Venezuelan farmers ability to raise and sell chickens at a price competitive with imports from Tyson.

127 blueraven  Wed, Aug 24, 2011 12:07:36pm

re: #121 ggt

I Agree, LOL.

People keep bitching about this POTUS or that POTUS, instead of bitching about the idiots on Captiol Hill.

The tax cuts were proposed by Bush, the congress wrote the legislation.

Same with the Obama stimulus.

128 goddamnedfrank  Wed, Aug 24, 2011 12:07:45pm

re: #112 KingKenrod

They were an acceleration of the already passed 2001 tax cuts.

Not entirely, that was only part of their effect. They cut other things far above and beyond anything in the 2001 bill, like taxes on capitol gains and dividends. Highly irresponsible.

129 engineer cat  Wed, Aug 24, 2011 12:07:56pm

teabaggers have a big sign on their back reading 'Hustler Bait'

130 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Tears  Wed, Aug 24, 2011 12:08:29pm

re: #76 ralphieboy

Time to topple the Statue of Liberty, load it on the deck of the aircraft carrier Charles de Gaulle and send it back to where it came from! We don't need that kind of liberty, especially the kind that comes so closely equated with equality and brotherhood! (the later being "progressive" concepts)

/

They should keep it and just rotate it 180 degrees and have it lower the torch. Nothing like a visible symbol of the US turning its back on the rest of the world.

And then they can add a giant knife labeled "Socialism" sticking out of the back...
///

131 leftynyc  Wed, Aug 24, 2011 12:08:43pm

re: #95 Dark_Falcon

The tax cuts had been approved before 9/11. To rescind them afterwards would have trigger an uproar in the GOP while simultaneously enspiriting the Democrats. Political issues made calling off the tax cuts impossible.

So the figuring was "better for a economic collapse to happen"? That doesn't sound very patriotic.

132 Kragar  Wed, Aug 24, 2011 12:08:51pm

re: #129 engineer dog

teabaggers have a big sign on their back reading 'Hustler Bait'

I wouldn't want to see the average Teabagger in Hustler.

133 albusteve  Wed, Aug 24, 2011 12:09:36pm

re: #121 ggt

I Agree, LOL.

People keep bitching about this POTUS or that POTUS, instead of bitching about the idiots on Captiol Hill.

presidents are tools...I hate congress, tools that sell votes

134 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Aug 24, 2011 12:10:08pm

re: #133 albusteve

presidents are tools...I hate congress, tools that sell votes

Zaphod Beeblebrox?

135 William Barnett-Lewis  Wed, Aug 24, 2011 12:10:15pm

re: #95 Dark_Falcon

The tax cuts had been approved before 9/11. To rescind them afterwards would have trigger an uproar in the GOP while simultaneously enspiriting the Democrats. Political issues made calling off the tax cuts impossible.

So gutting the nation's economy, which is what these cuts have done, was the right thing?

136 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Aug 24, 2011 12:10:24pm

re: #103 recusancy

And there you have it. We have a huge deficit because republicans wanted to put party before country.

The Republican party had made campaign promises of lower taxes. Moreover, George W. Bush was well aware of the damage his father took for signing a tax increase after promising not to. For him to go back on such a central campaign promise would have crippled him politically, no matter how good the reasons for doing so were. So he kept the tax cuts.

137 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Aug 24, 2011 12:11:02pm

BBL

138 Sol Berdinowitz  Wed, Aug 24, 2011 12:11:23pm

re: #118 Martinsmithy

To deny poor nations the ability to lift themselves out of abject poverty by refusing to trade with them is the height of global irresponsibility.

If we allow these nations to compete based on lower standards for worker safety or environmental protection, then we are doing neither ourselves nor them any sort of favor over the long run.

139 makeitstop  Wed, Aug 24, 2011 12:11:43pm

re: #57 Martinsmithy

His belief that yet another massive stimulus package generating another trillion dollar dollop of national debt takes Keynesan economics to the breaking point. And that breaking point is the amount of national debt we already carry, and the interest payments necessary to service it. Given the debt colossus, the use of a massive stimulus to stimulate the economy is ill-advised.

And of course, Krugman is an economist in real life, but we should instead defer to the superior knowledge of a commenter on a blog post.

Got it.
/

140 engineer cat  Wed, Aug 24, 2011 12:13:36pm

i think the W tax cuts were the last time that it could plausibly be asserted that tax cuts for the wealthy would lift the economy

141 makeitstop  Wed, Aug 24, 2011 12:13:47pm

re: #72 Dark_Falcon

Bill Clinton has never been the kind of leftist Martinsmithy was talking about.

Except when some Republican had to run for election against him - then he was the liberalist liberal ever!!!ty

142 Sol Berdinowitz  Wed, Aug 24, 2011 12:14:06pm

re: #130 oaktree

And then they can add a giant knife labeled "Socialism" sticking out of the back...
///

It should read "SOCILISM": let's keep the spelling representative of the mentality behind it

143 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Aug 24, 2011 12:14:13pm

Why Have the Apostles Behind Rick Perry's Prayer Rally Been Invisible to Most Americans?

he Unified Church of the End Times

The apostles of the NAR view themselves as leading the one legitimate church and unifying Christianity for the end times. In their end times scenario, it is necessary to take control over societal and governmental entities before Jesus can return. But first, as could be heard repeatedly in the messages at Rick Perry's prayer event, the church has to repent and be cleansed.

In the context of the teachings of the NAR, the repeated calls for repentance of the church at Perry's prayer event were about cleansing Protestantism of its toleration of homosexuals, a woman's right to choose, and most importantly - of its toleration for religious pluralism, separation of church and state, and secular government. Again, toleration of those things of which they disapprove is not a virtue, but a sign that one is controlled by demons.

Rick Joyner, one of the major thinkers of the movement, has written about a coming "civil war in the church," claiming that those Christians who don't join in their restoration are the "children of their father, the devil" and must be "converted, or removed from their place of influence in the church."

These people are either whacked or laughing all the way to the bank!

144 jamesfirecat  Wed, Aug 24, 2011 12:14:15pm

re: #136 Dark_Falcon

The Republican party had made campaign promises of lower taxes. Moreover, George W. Bush was well aware of the damage his father took for signing a tax increase after promising not to. For him to go back on such a central campaign promise would have crippled him politically, no matter how good the reasons for doing so were. So he kept the tax cuts.

So he put his getting a second term ahead of what would be good for America.

I'm look for a word to call that sort of action but I can't find anything that conveys what a how heinous it was without it being actively illegal...

145 lawhawk  Wed, Aug 24, 2011 12:14:41pm

re: #134 ggt

Dont panic! /have a towel

146 Kragar  Wed, Aug 24, 2011 12:15:42pm

re: #143 ggt

Why Have the Apostles Behind Rick Perry's Prayer Rally Been Invisible to Most Americans?

These people are either whacked or laughing all the way to the bank!

Or both.

147 blueraven  Wed, Aug 24, 2011 12:16:05pm

re: #136 Dark_Falcon

The Republican party had made campaign promises of lower taxes. Moreover, George W. Bush was well aware of the damage his father took for signing a tax increase after promising not to. For him to go back on such a central campaign promise would have crippled him politically, no matter how good the reasons for doing so were. So he kept the tax cuts.

Again, that is stupid. George Bush had free rein to do what was necessary. He had 90% approval after 9/11. A little sacrifice would have been tolerated by the people under the circumstances. He underestimated the patriotism of Americans. He also did major economic damage. Where was the leadership?

148 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Aug 24, 2011 12:16:29pm

re: #145 lawhawk

Dont panic! /have a towel

Insert Crucifix for Towel and you'd be explaining a large percentage of the voters right now.

149 Sol Berdinowitz  Wed, Aug 24, 2011 12:16:50pm

re: #143 ggt


This is a movement with a long history: they felt badly burned by Ronald Reagan, who pandered to the religious right but was quick to drop them - as soon as Nancy's house astrologer told her the time was propitious.

So they set about to quietly insinuate their people into all levels of government, society, media, education, public service, etc...

They are not going to tip their hand until it is time for theif big Power Play, which I suspect they see is coming down soon.

150 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Aug 24, 2011 12:17:16pm

re: #147 blueraven

Again, that is stupid. George Bush had free rein to do what was necessary. He had 90% approval after 9/11. A little sacrifice would have been tolerated by the people under the circumstances. He underestimated the patriotism of Americans. He also did major economic damage. Where was the leadership?

hindsight is 20/20.

We were all a little freaked the first few years after 9/11.

151 Martinsmithy  Wed, Aug 24, 2011 12:19:13pm

re: #139 makeitstop

And of course, Krugman is an economist in real life, but we should instead defer to the superior knowledge of a commenter on a blog post.

Got it.
/

I don't claim to be an economist. But lots of economists have criticized Krugman's positions - he is even criticized in this article from a magazine titled ... The Economist.

152 recusancy  Wed, Aug 24, 2011 12:19:32pm

re: #150 ggt

hindsight is 20/20.

We were all a little freaked the first few years after 9/11.

No. Bullshit. Some were freaked. Others kept their damned heads. If you can't keep your head you need not be in a leadership position.

153 blueraven  Wed, Aug 24, 2011 12:21:11pm

re: #150 ggt

hindsight is 20/20.

We were all a little freaked the first few years after 9/11.

No doubt about that. I am commenting on DFs post that this was a political move.
But wouldn't you have been OK with not cutting taxes at that time? Would you have held it against Bush if he had said...We can not afford the promised tax cuts right now?

154 allegro  Wed, Aug 24, 2011 12:21:34pm

re: #149 ralphieboy

This is a movement with a long history: they felt badly burned by Ronald Reagan, who pandered to the religious right but was quick to drop them - as soon as Nancy's house astrologer told her the time was propitious.

So they set about to quietly insinuate their people into all levels of government, society, media, education, public service, etc...

They are not going to tip their hand until it is time for theif big Power Play, which I suspect they see is coming down soon.

What I have found to be frustrating is that this was never a secret. I remember hearing about their plans a good 30 years ago. They started with school boards and local offices, moving up to state level positions, then national, building a nationwide network. They started these think tanks and focused media efforts that we've been watching develop to bring us to this point. This was all spelled out very clearly.

It has also been pretty much ignored as a story of interest to the media and the public apparently. Whenever I've brought it up over the past many years I have gotten mostly blank stares like I'm making shit up.

155 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Aug 24, 2011 12:21:47pm

Three


In addition to this block of neo-Charismatics, many denominational churches are embracing New Apostolic ideology, including reorganization under apostles and prophets, and the movement's unique Strategic Level Spiritual Warfare. These churches often remain in their denomination. For instance, Sarah Palin's church of over twenty years, Wasilla Assembly of God, is still part of the Assemblies of God, a Pentecostal denomination. However, the leadership embraced the ideology of the NAR years ago and and numerous national and international apostles have spoken there.
156 Gus  Wed, Aug 24, 2011 12:22:44pm

re: #110 Martinsmithy

This is classic and erroneous "zero sum game" economic thinking. Free trade agreements result in lost jobs in industries that are outcompeted by foreign economic actors, but result in numerically greater numbers of jobs in industries that can outcompete other foreign economic actors, because of the new markets that are opened up. This is really basic Macroeconomics 101, and the refusal of the left to acknowledge this reality is utterly reprehensible.

Now if you are talking about money for retraining workers who lose their jobs in the "old" industries for jobs in the "new" industries, then I'm all for it. But creating an economic "hothouse" of protectionism for national industries is really a recipe for economic stagnation and eventual disaster.

You're entitled to your opinion but I said nothing about protectionism. Being critical of trade agreements does not lead one to conclude that the opposite is acceptable. This is a democracy and the left and the unions are entitled to be heard during the legislative process. In all processes.

157 engineer cat  Wed, Aug 24, 2011 12:22:56pm

have you all seen this? perry has nommed up michelle and mitt's votes...

Gallup Poll. Aug. 17-21, 2011. N=1,040 Republicans and Republican-leaning independents nationwide. Margin of error ± 4.

Preference for Republican nominee:

(first column is 8/17-21/11, second column is previous poll from 7/20-24/11)

Rick Perry 25 15
Mitt Romney 14 17
Sarah Palin 11 12
Ron Paul 11 8
Rudy Giuliani 9 11
Michele Bachmann 7 11
Herman Cain 4 3
Newt Amphibian 3 3
Rick Santorum 3 2
Jon Huntsman 1 2
Random Clowns 1 1
Zombie Ronald Reagan 12 14

158 Carlos Machina  Wed, Aug 24, 2011 12:23:03pm

re: #89 Martinsmithy

the current, rising level is considered by economic orthodoxy to be too high.

Hello,

You give a lot of weight to this "economic orthodoxy. Much of your argument depends upon the opinions of this orthodoxy.

Could you identify it more fully? I've spent a lot of time studying economics and reading current opinions of recognized experts from all political stripes, but I find little orthodoxy in economics.

Is it possible that when you hear statements which fit into your political perspective, they become orthodoxy to you, but statements which do not square with your outlook are relegated to unorthodoxy?

For example, in one of your messages above, you seem to reject all Krugman's opinions, except the one about free trade, which you say is opposed by the left.

Do you believe all left wing economic ideas are wrong? If not, please name one with which you agree.

Carlos

159 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Aug 24, 2011 12:24:05pm

re: #153 blueraven

No doubt about that. I am commenting on DFs post that this was a political move.
But wouldn't you have been OK with not cutting taxes at that time? Would you have held it against Bush if he had said...We can not afford the promised tax cuts right now?

Honestly, I don't know what I would have been OK with. For me, that was a long time ago. Another lifetime in fact.

That's why I don't go for all the "he said, she did" stuff. We can sit at our computers and blame all we want, but our memories are faulty and we can't change what happened.

I don't think we can objectively look at the recent past.

160 lawhawk  Wed, Aug 24, 2011 12:25:05pm

re: #152 recusancy

And the Congress could point to the CBO scoring on those 2001 and 2003 acts in those years and say that they'd result in a balanced budget.*

*CBO scoring assumes no other changes to the law, meaning future Congresses wont override provisions, AMT thresholds wont change, etc., and such assumptions are always underestimating the costs and overestimating the revenues (so Congress games the scoring to show "balance").

Had Congress allowed the 2001/2003 acts to expire as promised after 2010, all tax brackets would have been affected. GOP got what they wanted - an across the board extension, putting this up for 2013, which may actually work against the GOP after the election. The cuts may expire across the board, or it may be altered by the upcoming Congress to lower rates for all but the top 2 tiers, etc. - but that too is adjusting the costs projected by the CBO away from what it expected when it scored the package at the outset.

161 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Wed, Aug 24, 2011 12:25:15pm

Greetings fellow lizards!

This whole thing should be featured on art of trolling.

Oh and OT, saw the new Conan and loved it.

162 Gus  Wed, Aug 24, 2011 12:27:10pm

Oh. I see we're playing the ding game. I can do the same.

163 Sol Berdinowitz  Wed, Aug 24, 2011 12:28:22pm

re: #154 allegro

Exactly. I am suprised at what a non-starter it has been as a topic of political discussion. I think it was assumed back then (and still now) that these are a bunch of isolated whackos whose influence will be limited.

164 blueraven  Wed, Aug 24, 2011 12:29:05pm

re: #160 lawhawk

And the Congress could point to the CBO scoring on those 2001 and 2003 acts in those years and say that they'd result in a balanced budget.*

*CBO scoring assumes no other changes to the law, meaning future Congresses wont override provisions, AMT thresholds wont change, etc., and such assumptions are always underestimating the costs and overestimating the revenues (so Congress games the scoring to show "balance").

Had Congress allowed the 2001/2003 acts to expire as promised after 2010, all tax brackets would have been affected. GOP got what they wanted - an across the board extension, putting this up for 2013, which may actually work against the GOP after the election. The cuts may expire across the board, or it may be altered by the upcoming Congress to lower rates for all but the top 2 tiers, etc. - but that too is adjusting the costs projected by the CBO away from what it expected when it scored the package at the outset.

Was the cost of the wars included in the CBO analysis?

165 lawhawk  Wed, Aug 24, 2011 12:30:28pm

re: #147 blueraven

BTW, the 2003 act accelerated the rate changes enacted in 2001, and established additional incentives for businesses. It was hoped that those would encourage businesses to expand, etc. It did result in most taxpayers seeing more money in their paychecks, but did little to spur on the economy.

And to answer your question from 164 - that was not part of the scoring. It only looks to the revenues generated with/without the tax law changes.

166 Bulworth  Wed, Aug 24, 2011 12:34:17pm

OT but "We have always been at war with Eastasia"

[Link: thinkprogress.org...]

167 Kragar  Wed, Aug 24, 2011 12:35:03pm
168 Gus  Wed, Aug 24, 2011 12:35:14pm

@maddow Rachel Maddow MSNBC
"Nothing says '21st century global superpower' like schools turning to sheep bc they can’t afford lawnmowers" [Link: t.co...]

Awesome.

169 blueraven  Wed, Aug 24, 2011 12:35:33pm

re: #165 lawhawk

Thank you. But that was my whole point about the tax cuts. The wars changed everything. But no allowance was made for them at all. If we as a country, cannot adjust as necessary for extreme circumstances but instead stick to rigid ideology, then we are in big trouble.

170 Gus  Wed, Aug 24, 2011 12:36:22pm

@thinkprogress ThinkProgress
Romney adopting "corporations are people" as a core campaign message [Link: t.co...]

Awesome!

171 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Wed, Aug 24, 2011 12:36:26pm

re: #168 Gus 802

read that at the Washington Monthly earlier today. Absolutely ridiculous.

172 celticdragon  Wed, Aug 24, 2011 12:36:49pm

re: #104 Gus 802

Politics over country. How patriotic of them.

Don't forget the GOP ads that portrayed Senator Max Cleland (D-Ga), a Vietnam War hero who lost most of his limbs and is confined to a whellchair, as an Al Qeada sympathizer

*spit*

173 Gus  Wed, Aug 24, 2011 12:36:57pm

re: #171 Dreggas

read that at the Washington Monthly earlier today. Absolutely ridiculous.

I did a double take.

174 Lidane  Wed, Aug 24, 2011 12:37:06pm

re: #168 Gus 802

@maddow Rachel Maddow MSNBC
"Nothing says '21st century global superpower' like schools turning to sheep bc they can’t afford lawnmowers" [Link: t.co...]

Awesome.

Bootstraps!

///

175 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Wed, Aug 24, 2011 12:38:42pm

re: #173 Gus 802

well remember, in republican utopia we can use chickens to get medical care so why not use sheep to mow school lawns?

176 engineer cat  Wed, Aug 24, 2011 12:38:54pm

re: #167 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Renew America Wonders If Obama Is A Demon

Zieve, who last posited that Obama was the Beast of the Book of Revelation, argues that 'Shari'a is only a short step away' in the United States if Obama continues to lead his 'dictatorial police state' and YouTube keeps "censoring and removing all videos that do not support Islamic worldwide domination."

sounds like a very interesting Alternative History sci-fi novel that i should write right away while the market is hot...

177 Shiplord Kirel  Wed, Aug 24, 2011 12:39:17pm

re: #143 ggt

Why Have the Apostles Behind Rick Perry's Prayer Rally Been Invisible to Most Americans?

These people are either whacked or laughing all the way to the bank!

I tend to see these people as more evil than crazy. No doubt they are exploiting ignorance and prejudice, but they are angling for the bottom line. Their shameless dishonesty about history and scripture confirms that. It goes farther than their own personal greed, too: The notorious grifter and corporate shill Perry would have nothing to do with them if he didn't think their efforts could somehow advance economic elitism and the further concentration of wealth at the top.

178 Gus  Wed, Aug 24, 2011 12:39:19pm

re: #172 celticdragon

Don't forget the GOP ads that portrayed Senator Max Cleland (D-Ga), a Vietnam War hero who lost most of his limbs and is confined to a whellchair, as an Al Qeada sympathizer

*spit*

Thanks for the reminder. Absolutely disgusting. It will take a hundred years for the Republicans to "atone for their sins."

179 Bulworth  Wed, Aug 24, 2011 12:39:38pm

re: #170 Gus 802

@thinkprogress ThinkProgress
Romney adopting "corporations are people" as a core campaign message [Link: t.co...]

Awesome!

Well, he needs "a" core campaign message.

How will Perry counter this? //

180 Lidane  Wed, Aug 24, 2011 12:40:16pm

re: #172 celticdragon

Don't forget the GOP ads that portrayed Senator Max Cleland (D-Ga), a Vietnam War hero who lost most of his limbs and is confined to a whellchair, as an Al Qeada sympathizer

*spit*

And when his opponent used deferments to get out of Vietnam, at that.

One of the lowest, most vile GOP campaigns I've ever seen.

181 engineer cat  Wed, Aug 24, 2011 12:40:32pm

Why Have the Apostles Behind Rick Perry's Prayer Rally Been Invisible to Most Americans?

because perry has kept everybody entertained so far by stepping all over his message?

182 Gus  Wed, Aug 24, 2011 12:41:17pm

re: #180 Lidane

And when his opponent used deferments to get out of Vietnam, at that.

One of the lowest, most vile GOP campaigns I've ever seen.

There's always the Southern Strategy and Lee Atwater. The GOP is repugnant cesspool.

183 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Aug 24, 2011 12:41:21pm

re: #175 Dreggas

well remember, in republican utopia we can use chickens to get medical care so why not use sheep to mow school lawns?

NO, sheep should be reserved solely for combating the far-reaching and landscape endangering kudzu. And for nothing else, we need to keep our priorities straight!

/

184 Interesting Times  Wed, Aug 24, 2011 12:41:40pm

re: #170 Gus 802

@thinkprogress ThinkProgress
Romney adopting "corporations are people" as a core campaign message [Link: t.co...]

Awesome!

That's the right-wing way: never apologize, never revise, just double-down for a base that's completely unwise.

185 celticdragon  Wed, Aug 24, 2011 12:41:55pm

re: #181 engineer dog

Why Have the Apostles Behind Rick Perry's Prayer Rally Been Invisible to Most Americans?

because perry has kept everybody entertained so far by stepping all over his message dick?

186 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Aug 24, 2011 12:42:51pm

re: #176 engineer dog

Zieve, who last posited that Obama was the Beast of the Book of Revelation, argues that 'Shari'a is only a short step away' in the United States if Obama continues to lead his 'dictatorial police state' and YouTube keeps "censoring and removing all videos that do not support Islamic worldwide domination."

sounds like a very interesting Alternative History sci-fi novel that i should write right away while the market is hot...

nice play on people's emotions.

if you can't scare them with demons, link the demons to Islam.

/

187 Lidane  Wed, Aug 24, 2011 12:43:03pm

re: #182 Gus 802

There's always the Southern Strategy and Lee Atwater.

Yeah, but those aren't bugs. They're features. The modern GOP campaign book is just an extension of Atwater.

188 Interesting Times  Wed, Aug 24, 2011 12:43:49pm

re: #180 Lidane

And when his opponent used deferments to get out of Vietnam, at that.

One of the lowest, most vile GOP campaigns I've ever seen.

For their supporters, that's a feature, not a bug. Aren't these the same people who say it "takes balls to execute an innocent man"?

189 Killgore Trout  Wed, Aug 24, 2011 12:43:53pm

"The Battery" First Look Trailer


Looks pretty decent for an amateur zombie flick made for $6,000
190 Gus  Wed, Aug 24, 2011 12:43:59pm

re: #187 Lidane

Yeah, but those aren't bugs. They're features. The modern GOP campaign book is just an extension of Atwater.

They should change their name to the Confederate Party.

//

191 celticdragon  Wed, Aug 24, 2011 12:44:05pm

re: #186 ggt

nice play on people's emotions.

if you can't scare them with demons, link the demons to Islam.

/

But then you would have to call them djinni, which sounds kinda foreign.

192 Kragar  Wed, Aug 24, 2011 12:45:14pm

re: #191 celticdragon

But then you would have to call them djinni, which sounds kinda foreign.

They don't like Barbara Eden?

193 celticdragon  Wed, Aug 24, 2011 12:46:33pm

re: #188 publicityStunted

For their supporters, that's a feature, not a bug. Aren't these the same people who say it "takes balls to execute an innocent man"?

Also the same folks who put fliers on cars parked at white Christian churches in South Carolina back in 2000 accusing John McCain of screwing a black woman and having a bastard black baby with her.

Keeping it classy racist.

194 Gus  Wed, Aug 24, 2011 12:48:23pm

re: #193 celticdragon

Also the same folks who put fliers on cars parked at white Christian churches in South Carolina back in 2000 accusing John McCain of screwing a black woman and having a bastard black baby with her.

Keeping it classy racist.

And later McCain hugging Bush? My oh my. What a dysfunctional party.

Image: mccain_bush_hug.jpg

195 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Aug 24, 2011 12:48:24pm

re: #192 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

They don't like Barbara Eden?

She was a Jeannie.

There is a difference.

196 celticdragon  Wed, Aug 24, 2011 12:51:06pm

re: #192 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

They don't like Barbara Eden?

Have you ever seen the Chick Track that accuses "Bewitched" of sponsoring Satan worship?

Unintentional hilarity ensues.

197 Gus  Wed, Aug 24, 2011 12:53:04pm

Oh look. Free-market Jesus doesn't like Alabama's anti-immigrant law?

@thinkprogress ThinkProgress
Alabama businesses decry radical anti-immigrant law: "Farmers + business people could go under" [Link: t.co...]

198 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Aug 24, 2011 12:53:37pm

I expect the Uganda Issue to be implosive. Perry will throw the individual's named under the bus and Michele will reinvent the events to suit her. I do think it could cause the independents to shy away from the GOP.

I have to go.

Have a great afternoon all!

199 Kragar  Wed, Aug 24, 2011 12:55:51pm

Today's GOP:

Ground Zero Health Law Shouldn’t Cover Sickened Volunteers


“I probably couldn’t go home if I didn’t support the Zadroga bill. I have firemen in my family, but is that bill beyond criticism? No,” he said. [...]

“I think it is a little too broad,” Turner said.

“My call would be to protect police, fire, emergency workers, construction workers, etc.

“If someone said, ‘I volunteered’ or walked through there, it’s just not the type,” added Turner, who faces Democrat David Weprin in the Sept. 13 special election.



Rubio: Medicare, Social Security ‘Weakened Us As People’, Made Us Lazy


These programs actually weakened us as a people. You see, almost forever, it was institutions in society that assumed the role of taking care of one another. If someone was sick in your family, you took care of them. If a neighbor met misfortune, you took care of them. You saved for your retirement and your future because you had to. We took these things upon ourselves in our communities, our families, and our homes, and our churches and our synagogues. But all that changed when the government began to assume those responsibilities. All of a sudden, for an increasing number of people in our nation, it was no longer necessary to worry about saving for security because that was the government’s job.

Everyone for yourselves!

200 Kragar  Wed, Aug 24, 2011 12:57:28pm

re: #196 celticdragon

Have you ever seen the Chick Track that accuses "Bewitched" of sponsoring Satan worship?

Unintentional hilarity ensues.

I think Elizabeth Hurley probably caused more of that

201 mikec6666  Wed, Aug 24, 2011 12:57:51pm

There was recently a hoax saying Internet Explorer users had average IQ's of 80 points. LOL -- everyone ran with it. I think someone here said people hear what they want to hear. Here, here!

202 Carlos Machina  Wed, Aug 24, 2011 12:59:20pm

I just read over at ThinkProgress that Glenn Beck has changed the timing of his event to accommodate Muslims during Ramadan.

I wonder how Geller and the others will react.

203 Shiplord Kirel  Wed, Aug 24, 2011 12:59:21pm

re: #188 publicityStunted

For their supporters, that's a feature, not a bug. Aren't these the same people who say it "takes balls to execute an innocent man"?


Every policeman, counselor, and pastor knows that a sizable part of the populace have no use for morality except as a club to bash others with, to victimize and exploit those who are perceived (often falsely) as weak. I know people like this, mostly conservative business types. If you tell them some proposal or tactic is unethical, they will sneer at you to "grow up." At the same time, they are careful to cover their tracks in public, lest someone use their own favorite club on them. Adultery is ok, even laudible, if you get away with it behind closed doors, but a publicly unconventional lifestyle is a monstrous sin. The extraordinary rate of divorce among practicing fundamentalists speaks to this, as do sky-high STD rates, per capita liquor sales, and drug arrests in fundy-controlled areas like Lubbock and the Dallas suburbs. These people are not hypocrites because of weakness, their standard excuse when caught, but because it is part and parcel of their predatory mindset. The genius of people like Perry and Bachmann is their ability to mobilize this predatory mindset into a movement and camouflage it in a load of garbage about family values and the like. They are not dupes, they are conscious hypocrites by inclination and preference.

204 Gus  Wed, Aug 24, 2011 12:59:42pm

re: #199 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Today's GOP:

Ground Zero Health Law Shouldn’t Cover Sickened Volunteers


Rubio: Medicare, Social Security ‘Weakened Us As People’, Made Us Lazy

Everyone for yourselves!

Marc Rubio is a coddled, sheltered, and repugnant human being.

205 Martinsmithy  Wed, Aug 24, 2011 1:16:35pm

re: #156 Gus 802

You're entitled to your opinion but I said nothing about protectionism. Being critical of trade agreements does not lead one to conclude that the opposite is acceptable. This is a democracy and the left and the unions are entitled to be heard during the legislative process. In all processes.

Of course they are entitled to be heard during the legislative process, and all other processes. I never said otherwise. So are the tea party punks. But if either of them actually obtain true governing power to implement their positions, it spells economic disaster for this country.

As for being "against" both protectionism and free trade agreements, such a position is nonsensical. Free trade agreements eliminate trade barriers such as tariffs and quotas that are the essence of protectionism.

206 Martinsmithy  Wed, Aug 24, 2011 1:19:18pm

re: #158 Carlos Machina

Hello,

You give a lot of weight to this "economic orthodoxy. Much of your argument depends upon the opinions of this orthodoxy.

Could you identify it more fully? I've spent a lot of time studying economics and reading current opinions of recognized experts from all political stripes, but I find little orthodoxy in economics.

Is it possible that when you hear statements which fit into your political perspective, they become orthodoxy to you, but statements which do not square with your outlook are relegated to unorthodoxy?

For example, in one of your messages above, you seem to reject all Krugman's opinions, except the one about free trade, which you say is opposed by the left.

Do you believe all left wing economic ideas are wrong? If not, please name one with which you agree.

Carlos

Krugman is correct about more than free trade. He is also correct that the rich can and should be taxed at higher levels than they are currently. That is certainly a left-wing economic idea, and it is one that I agree with.

Where Krugman is wrong is his claim that, given our current levels of national debt, we can just spend our way out of this recession.

207 Martinsmithy  Wed, Aug 24, 2011 1:22:03pm

re: #162 Gus 802

Oh. I see we're playing the ding game. I can do the same.

If you are referring to me, I've used by dinger to ding comments in a negative manner that are, in my opinion, intellectually deceptive, unfairly dismissive of contrary opinion, or unduly sarcastic. I believe that I've actually updinged comments in opposition to mine that are well-written and argued, in a courteous manner. If not on this thread, then on others I've participated on.

208 Martinsmithy  Wed, Aug 24, 2011 1:26:44pm

re: #162 Gus 802

Oh. I see we're playing the ding game. I can do the same.

I guess I'll walk away with my head bowed in shame now ...

209 Carlos Machina  Wed, Aug 24, 2011 1:33:39pm

re: #206 Martinsmithy

Hello,

Thanks for the thoughtful reply. Taxing the rich more heavily seems to me to be something that would have no dire consequences for the nation, at least.

But you forgot to identify the source of the economic orthodoxy you cite, and why you believe it is orthodox in a field so wildly splintered with theories.

Carlos

210 Prideful, Arrogant Marriage Equality Advocate  Wed, Aug 24, 2011 2:32:27pm

re: #122 Martinsmithy

I am not arguing with what you are saying, nor do i disagree that there are people on the left who are economically illiterate-not everyone can be economically literate- I just wanted to point out how silly it sounds when you keep going on about the economically illiterate left when all the right wingers* i know insist that the only way to fix the economy is to pray!

*This excludes the right wingers on this blog.

211 Obdicut  Wed, Aug 24, 2011 3:17:04pm

re: #89 Martinsmithy

Classic Keynesian economics states that governments should run surpluses during good economic times, and deficits during bad economic times. The surpluses should be used to pay off the deficits. While a modest national debt as percentage of GDP is actually good, the current, rising level is considered by economic orthodoxy to be too high. That's because the U.S. government has run deficits even when the economy was booming (and no, the later Clinton years were only years of surplus if social security is excluded from the calculation).

In other words, Krugman's advice, while sound in a classical Keynesian environment, is unsound when given at a time of such high national debt levels in the United States.

I can't tell if you're being illogical on purpose.

It's true that we should lower spending in the boom times. However, the fact that we haven't done that doesn't mean we should goddamn compound the error, like morons, by not spending heavily in a recession.

You are saying "We've made one mistake, so let's make another one".

Idiotic.

212 Martinsmithy  Wed, Aug 24, 2011 4:41:34pm

re: #211 Obdicut

I can't tell if you're being illogical on purpose.

It's true that we should lower spending in the boom times. However, the fact that we haven't done that doesn't mean we should goddamn compound the error, like morons, by not spending heavily in a recession.

You are saying "We've made one mistake, so let's make another one".

Idiotic.

The reason we can't spend our way out of this recession is that the resulting ballooning of our already huge national debt, which was almost criminally increased during the Bush Presidency despite good economic times, would cause damage to the economy greater than the benefit from increased government stimulus spending.

Which means that we must find another way out of this recession. The most obvious alternative is the method used to get out of economic slumps prior to 1929, which was to just live through the misery like we live through a bout with the flu and let events take their course. Combined with modern-day social welfare and unemployment insurance programs, which should be funded by increased taxes on the rich. This appears to be the only way out of this economic morass.

213 garhighway  Wed, Aug 24, 2011 6:49:36pm

re: #212 Martinsmithy

The reason we can't spend our way out of this recession is that the resulting ballooning of our already huge national debt, which was almost criminally increased during the Bush Presidency despite good economic times, would cause damage to the economy greater than the benefit from increased government stimulus spending. Is there some quantitative basis for this conclusion? What level of debt can our economy support, and how do you calculate that?

214 boxhead  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 12:37:35am

Once again, smart people verify as best they can the data that is presented to them before making a conclusion. Sort of like what scientists do, which of course those most likely to have been fooled are not the biggest fans of the scientific method....


aaarrr


This article has been archived.
Comments are closed.

Jump to top

Create a PageThis is the LGF Pages posting bookmarklet. To use it, drag this button to your browser's bookmark bar, and title it 'LGF Pages' (or whatever you like). Then browse to a site you want to post, select some text on the page to use for a quote, click the bookmarklet, and the Pages posting window will appear with the title, text, and any embedded video or audio files already filled in, ready to go.
Or... you can just click this button to open the Pages posting window right away.
Last updated: 2023-04-04 11:11 am PDT
LGF User's Guide RSS Feeds

Help support Little Green Footballs!

Subscribe now for ad-free access!Register and sign in to a free LGF account before subscribing, and your ad-free access will be automatically enabled.

Donate with
PayPal
Cash.app
Recent PagesClick to refresh
Why Did More Than 1,000 People Die After Police Subdued Them With Force That Isn’t Meant to Kill? An investigation led by The Associated Press has found that, over a decade, more than 1,000 people died after police subdued them through physical holds, stun guns, body blows and other force not intended to be lethal. More: Why ...
Cheechako
Yesterday
Views: 38 • Comments: 0 • Rating: 0
A Closer Look at the Eastman State Bar DecisionTaking a few minutes away from work things to read through the Eastman decision. As I'm sure many of you know, Eastman was my law school con law professor. I knew him pretty well because I was also running in ...
KGxvi
Yesterday
Views: 92 • Comments: 1 • Rating: 1