Rick Perry Takes Lead - Suddenly Romney is a Climate Change Denier

Romney throws science under the bus
Politics • Views: 31,130

Remember the days when Mitt Romney was considered a moderate Republican, a rational guy who didn’t follow the standard GOP anti-science line? A guy who accepted the science of both evolution and global warming?

Well, those days are gone: Romney says would not put limits on emissions.

(Reuters) - Presidential candidate Mitt Romney, in danger of losing his 2012 Republican primary front-runner status, on Wednesday he would not place restrictions on carbon emissions if elected.

Romney, the former Massachusetts governor, also said he does not know if human activity is the primary cause of climate change and does not favor spending heavily on climate solutions.

Asked about global warming at a town hall meeting in Lebanon, New Hampshire, Romney said he believed the world is getting hotter and humans contribute in some way to the change — but could not judge to what extent.

“Do I think the world’s getting hotter? Yeah, I don’t know that but I think that it is,” he said. “I don’t know if it’s mostly caused by humans.”

“What I’m not willing to do is spend trillions of dollars on something I don’t know the answer to.”

At this rate, it won’t be long until Romney starts praising “intelligent design.”

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299 comments
1 Daniel Ballard  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 11:00:42am

Now we see the one mix more problematic than politics and religion. Presidential election politics and science.

Makes religion and science look like old pals by comparison.

2 darthstar  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 11:01:01am

Shorter Romney: "Look at me! I can be stupid too!"

There's a reason nobody wants you to win, Mitt...you give flip-floppers a bad name.

3 Interesting Times  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 11:02:11am

Might I suggest an alternate photo to go with this post?

4 Targetpractice  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 11:03:10am

Romney sells-out, takes momentary lead. Perry comes in, is genuinely batshit, ends up taking a commanding lead. Romney's solution? Become even more a sell-out, hope to retake lead or at least close gap.

Meanwhile, the only guy who could be considered a "moderate" in this pack, Huntsman, is polling dead last.

Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit drinking./

5 Kragar  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 11:03:47am

Mitt, you see that glow in the corner of your eye? It's your career dissapation light and it's going into overtime.

6 Kronocide  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 11:04:08am

re: #3 publicityStunted

You mean instead of Mittens call him Flip Flops? I approve and forward to the committee.

7 theheat  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 11:04:26am

“What I’m not willing to do is spend trillions of dollars on something I don’t know the answer to.”

But they'll give free rein to any business that wants to trash the planet - and at a bargain basement tax rate - because that's job creation. Better yet, let's trash the EPA.

If you pull the string at the base of their neck, pretty much all the same tired bullshit comes out their mouths.

8 engineer cat  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 11:04:55am

perry is the fatal pied piper that will lead the republican party to perish in the wilds of outer wingnuttia

perhaps wall st republicans should hold their own rallies:

"Selfish And Short Sighted But Not Insane Morons"

9 Kragar  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 11:05:07am

So when does Mitt say fuck it and hold a prayer rally?

10 Bulworth  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 11:05:22am

re: #7 theheat

But they'll give free rein to any business that wants to trash the planet - and at a bargain basement tax rate - because that's job creation. Better yet, let's trash the EPA.

If you pull the string at the base of their neck, pretty much all the same tired bullshit comes out their mouths.

Hmmm. Well, how about spending billions of dollars, Mitt?

11 darthstar  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 11:05:48am

I will be the Republican front runner as soon as I publicize my platform:
1. The earth is flat.
2. Government should pay us, not tax us.
3. Coors.

12 jamesfirecat  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 11:06:15am

Wow it's like he's a robot, polls come in opinions come out...

//You can't explain that...

13 Kragar  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 11:06:40am

re: #11 darthstar

I will be the Republican front runner as soon as I publicize my platform:
1. The earth is flat.
2. Government should pay us, not tax us.
3. Coors.

Needs more Jesus.

14 Bulworth  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 11:06:41am

Actually, Romney's answer is pretty clever, although perhaps too clever by half. He gets to agree with mainstream science that the earth is warming, but he gets to say in effect, "doesn't matter-won't spend any money on it."

15 darthstar  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 11:07:15am

re: #9 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

So when does Mitt say fuck it and hold a prayer rally?

When he gets full-dunk baptized the day before the South Carolina primary.

16 Kronocide  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 11:07:28am

re: #11 darthstar

I will be the Republican front runner as soon as I publicize my platform:
1. The earth is flat.
2. Government should pay us, not tax us.
3. Coors.

You forgot:
4. Derp. Derpity derp, da derp? Derp DERP! Derp.

17 darthstar  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 11:07:41am

re: #13 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Needs more Jesus.

I said Coors.

18 darthstar  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 11:08:04am

re: #16 BigPapa

You forgot:
4. Derp. Derpity derp, da derp? Derp DERP! Derp.

I said Coors.

19 theheat  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 11:08:33am

re: #4 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

Huntsman already said quite clearly he wasn't doing jack shit about anything environmental until the economy rights itself. In wingnut terms, that means not until all us worker bees have 40 acres and a mule never.

This is after he praised China for instituting tighter environmental restrictions, and remarked about what a polluted shithole it had become.

20 Kragar  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 11:08:46am

Rick Perry To Spend The Weekend With A Pseudo-Historian, A Christocrat, And God's Sugar Daddy


When Rick Perry heads this weekend to Jim Leininger's ranch for a confab of Christian conservatives, he'll be on hallowed ground. Leininger has long been one of Perry's financial angels. He's been a leading proponent of school vouchers. And he's given large sums to Perry campaigns over the years. In some quarters, he's seen as saving Perry's political career with a last-minute infusion of $1.1 million to fuel Perry's 1998 victory as lieutenant governor.

...

Perry is scheduled to attend and to talk politics with leading evangelical leaders including retired judge Paul Pressler, a Southern Baptist leader, Christian historian David Barton, East Texas evangelist Rick Scarborough and others who supported Perry's Christian prayer rally in Houston. The event isn't about fundraising, but about motivating true believers.

21 lawhawk  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 11:09:23am

re: #13 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

And an American beer; Coors is now Canadian (owned by Molson). /

22 Shiplord Kirel  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 11:09:33am

re: #11 darthstar

I will be the Republican front runner as soon as I publicize my platform:
1. The earth is flat.
2. Government should pay us, not tax us.
3. Coors.

I want to use federal money to buy the Guinness brewery and move it lock, stock and barrels to Colorado Springs. Corona and Dos Equis can follow but we can just send in our troops to confiscate those.

23 Kronocide  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 11:09:43am

re: #18 darthstar

I said Coors.

Oh, derp. LOL, derpy dirpiderp.

24 darthstar  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 11:10:10am

re: #21 lawhawk

And an American beer; Coors is now Canadian (owned by Molson). /

Fine...Miller High Life...the "Champagne of beers"...(though that might be seen as elitist)...

25 Kragar  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 11:11:27am

re: #24 darthstar

Fine...Miller High Life...the "Champagne of beers"...(though that might be seen as elitist)...

Sure, bring the French into it.

26 Killgore Trout  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 11:12:25am

re: #20 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

video...
And Rick Scarborough is a self-proclaimed "Christocrat" who believes that it is his duty to "mix church and state God's way" in order to stop the country's "slide further into Communism/Socialism [and] sexual anarchy led by sodomites" and who stated, just a few months ago, that AIDS is God's judgment for engaging in an immoral act:

Youtube Video

Wow, I thought for sure this was an old video from the 80's

27 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 11:12:48am

re: #11 darthstar

I will be the Republican front runner as soon as I publicize my platform:
1. The earth is flat.
2. Government should pay us, not tax us.
3. Coors.

If you were a true panderer wouldn't you claim it was taco-shell shaped in order to court the Hispanic vote?
/

28 darthstar  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 11:13:10am

re: #25 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Sure, bring the French into it.

Okay, that's it. I'm going to suspend my campaign until further notice. But please, keep donating. I'm thinking about doing a bus tour later in the year and need to buy a bus.

29 darthstar  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 11:14:17am

re: #27 oaktree

If you were a true panderer wouldn't you claim it was taco-shell shaped in order to court the Hispanic vote?
/

At the risk of repeating myself, I SAID COORS!...sheesh.

30 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 11:15:05am

re: #29 darthstar

At the risk of repeating myself, I SAID COORS!...sheesh.

You may think it's the Silver Bullet panacea for everything, but we don't.

31 theheat  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 11:15:39am

There isn't a single GOP in the running that is going to give climate change or the environment the time of day.

However, Huntsman doesn’t believe that the United States should do anything about climate pollution: "Cap-and-trade ideas aren’t working; it hasn’t worked, and our economy’s in a different place than five years ago. Much of this discussion happened before the bottom fell out of the economy, and until it comes back, this isn’t the moment."

Best way to deal with an inconvenient truth is ignore it altogether.

32 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 11:16:13am

re: #6 BigPapa

You mean instead of Mittens call him Flip Flops? I approve and forward to the committee.

I think Kerry owns 'Flip Flopper' at this point.

33 wrenchwench  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 11:16:30am

re: #31 theheat

There isn't a single GOP in the running that is going to give climate change or the environment the time of day.

Best way to deal with an inconvenient truth is ignore it altogether.

He's going to schedule the panic for a more convenient time.

34 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 11:16:51am

re: #11 darthstar

I will be the Republican front runner as soon as I publicize my platform:
1. The earth is flat.
2. Government should pay us, not tax us.
3. Coors.

You won't get the Budweiser vote like that.

35 Kragar  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 11:16:52am

re: #26 Killgore Trout

video...
And Rick Scarborough is a self-proclaimed "Christocrat" who believes that it is his duty to "mix church and state God's way" in order to stop the country's "slide further into Communism/Socialism [and] sexual anarchy led by sodomites" and who stated, just a few months ago, that AIDS is God's judgment for engaging in an immoral act:

[Video]
Wow, I thought for sure this was an old video from the 80's

Any government that would treat David Barton as a serious historian is one to be ascared of.

36 jaunte  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 11:16:56am
Asked about global warming at a town hall meeting in Lebanon, New Hampshire, Romney said he believed the world is getting hotter and humans contribute in some way to the change — but could not judge to what extent.

“Do I think the world’s getting hotter? Yeah, I don’t know that but I think that it is,” he said. “I don’t know if it’s mostly caused by humans.”

“What I’m not willing to do is spend trillions of dollars on something I don’t know the answer to.”

Step 1. Ask someone who's better informed.

37 Iwouldprefernotto  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 11:17:27am

re: #3 publicityStunted

Might I suggest an alternate photo to go with this post?

No. You may not suggest. Just kidding LOL.

38 theheat  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 11:17:38am

re: #33 wrenchwench

Hurricane, tornado, flood, or drought? Crop failure?
//

39 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 11:18:20am

re: #38 theheat

Hurricane, tornado, flood, or drought? Crop failure?
//

That's not AGW, that's God trying to punish the liberals and inflicting collateral damage.
//

40 lostlakehiker  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 11:18:50am

Is it a good idea to spend trillions of dollars, now, on emissions controls? Money spent now is money not available 10 years later for spending on more advanced versions of the same thing.

This thing is way serious, but war is serious too and that doesn't mean every imaginable weapon should be bought in any imaginable quantity. Means must be portioned out, in both cases.

Part of the answer to our AGW problem has to be R&D. Instead of buying enough solar cells to pave one square mile of AZ right now, we might do better to work away at the technology, in hopes of being able to pave two square miles for the same cost, down the road. or four, or twenty.

Whatever we ultimately do will require scaling to heroic dimensions, and we simply cannot scale up a solution if it's too expensive. If it requires more inputs than are physically available, it won't be done.

It's disappointing that he doesn't answer that he does know and that we are the cause. But "not knowing" leaves the door open.

41 Kragar  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 11:19:16am

re: #39 oaktree

That's not AGW, that's God trying to punish the liberals and inflicting collateral damage.
//

Butt sex makes God angry

42 theheat  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 11:19:26am

re: #39 oaktree

Oddly, it happens most often in the least librul states.

43 wrenchwench  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 11:19:26am

re: #36 jaunte

“What I’m not willing to do is spend trillions of dollars on something I don’t know the answer to.”

Step 1. Ask someone who's better informed.

Step 2. Withdraw from campaign, because you don't know whether you're going to win.

44 Kragar  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 11:20:03am

re: #42 theheat

Oddly, it happens most often in the least librul states.

They're lost causes, so he focuses on the states who might still get the message.

45 Targetpractice  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 11:21:38am

re: #40 lostlakehiker

Is it a good idea to spend trillions of dollars, now, on emissions controls? Money spent now is money not available 10 years later for spending on more advanced versions of the same thing.

This thing is way serious, but war is serious too and that doesn't mean every imaginable weapon should be bought in any imaginable quantity. Means must be portioned out, in both cases.

Part of the answer to our AGW problem has to be R&D. Instead of buying enough solar cells to pave one square mile of AZ right now, we might do better to work away at the technology, in hopes of being able to pave two square miles for the same cost, down the road. or four, or twenty.

Whatever we ultimately do will require scaling to heroic dimensions, and we simply cannot scale up a solution if it's too expensive. If it requires more inputs than are physically available, it won't be done.

It's disappointing that he doesn't answer that he does know and that we are the cause. But "not knowing" leaves the door open.

Yeah, that's been the "approach" for decades: "The technology's not there for a huge change, let's keep banging at it for another decade, when it will be cheaper/easier/more popular." A good plan today is better than a perfect plan tomorrow.

46 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 11:22:30am

re: #40 lostlakehiker

If Romney had responded that we should spend money on the R&D in order to prepare better for a solution that we have to implement I would be more likely to buy that talking point. Instead he did a tap dance to avoid the issue entirely which falls in line with the GOP candidates denying that anything has to be done at all.

47 Bulworth  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 11:22:57am

re: #26 Killgore Trout

video...
And Rick Scarborough is a self-proclaimed "Christocrat" who believes that it is his duty to "mix church and state God's way" in order to stop the country's "slide further into Communism/Socialism [and] sexual anarchy led by sodomites" and who stated, just a few months ago, that AIDS is God's judgment for engaging in an immoral act:

[Video]
Wow, I thought for sure this was an old video from the 80's

Thought I hadn't heard about him in a little while. With the full range of crazies around, he's been under the radar a bit.

48 theheat  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 11:23:50am

re: #45 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

This kind of thing (climate change, environmentalism, alternative energy) was being discussed in the classroom when I was in grade school. That's before the Koch brothers, BTW. Think 40-some years ago.

Yeah, better wait for a better time.
//

49 theheat  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 11:25:22am

re: #48 theheat

(Of course, I was in a godless liberal public school at the time.)/added

50 Kragar  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 11:25:36am

If the GW people are wrong, we spend money and all we get is a cleaner environment, air, water, and a more efficient power system based on alternative energy.

If they're right, we all fucking die.

Tough decision.

51 theheat  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 11:27:27am

re: #50 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

we spend money and all we get is a cleaner environment, air, water, and a more efficient power system based on alternative.


JOB KILLER!

52 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 11:28:25am

re: #50 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

If the GW people are wrong, we spend money and all we get is a cleaner environment, air, water, and a more efficient power system based on alternative.

If they're right, we all fucking die.

Tough decision.

I don't think that is the decision tree they are working under...

(a) Get million-dollar campaign contribution from industry/donor/interest group. Promise of nice lobbying job post-political career.

(b) Make influential enemies and get swift-boated into oblivion in next re-election campaign.

53 Kragar  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 11:28:41am

Evidence of 'mass execution' in Tripoli


"I have counted the bodies of 15 men, we were told there were 17 here. Two bodies were taken away by relatives for burial."

"We are told these men were political activists who have been arrested over the last few days and weeks and being held near the Gaddafi compound. When the opposition fighters started to enter the compound we are told they were killed.

"Everyone I have spoken to who has looked at these injuries, all the medical staff, they say they believe that the injuries they see on the bodies of these men have the hallmark of a mass execution."

Bays said there were no forensic scientists at the hospital. Doctors there had taken photos of the exit and entry wounds on the bodies, with the intention of showing it to an expert at a later stage.

54 Targetpractice  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 11:28:59am

re: #50 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

If the GW people are wrong, we spend money and all we get is a cleaner environment, air, water, and a more efficient power system based on alternative.

If they're right, we all fucking die.

Tough decision.

Meanwhile, China's not dicking around, waiting for the answer to reveal itself. They're going forward, full steam ahead, with developing and adopting clean energy sources. Such that, in a few decades, after we've gotten done allowing ourselves to be reamed by Big Energy, we'll be buying such tech from them.

But hey, at least we're not imposing "job killing" regulations, and that's what's most important. ///

55 Kragar  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 11:29:54am

re: #52 oaktree

I don't think that is the decision tree they are working under...

(a) Get million-dollar campaign contribution from industry/donor/interest group. Promise of nice lobbying job post-political career.

(b) Make influential enemies and get swift-boated into oblivion in next re-election campaign.

Fucking priorities, how do they work?

56 Killgore Trout  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 11:30:54am

re: #54 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

Meanwhile, China's not dicking around, waiting for the answer to reveal itself. They're going forward, full steam ahead, with developing and adopting clean energy sources. Such that, in a few decades, after we've gotten done allowing ourselves to be reamed by Big Energy, we'll be buying such tech from them.

But hey, at least we're not imposing "job killing" regulations, and that's what's most important. ///

Republicans are doing everything they can to assure the future of green energy is going to come from Europe and China.

57 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 11:31:31am

re: #55 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Fucking priorities, how do they work?

Maybe they are of the school that the primary tenet of Buddhism is "Every man for himself".

58 darthstar  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 11:32:25am

re: #34 SanFranciscoZionist

You won't get the Budweiser vote like that.

I can take the Budweiser vote for granted. Who else will they support? I've got beer spilled all over my platform.

59 Targetpractice  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 11:32:32am

re: #56 Killgore Trout

Republicans are doing everything they can to assure the future of green energy is going to come from Europe and China.

Meanwhile, we'll still be shitting where we eat, digging for oil shale, polluting our drinking water supply "fracking," and plumbing the depths of our own shores, looking for a couple more barrels of oil, if only to keep our addiction going.

60 Kronocide  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 11:36:13am

re: #57 oaktree

Maybe they are of the school that the primary tenet of Buddhism is "Every man for himself".

Hey Virginia: better get your bootstraps ready!
Eric Cantor

Virginia Emergency Hurricane Supply Checklist:

1. 3 days water per person
2. Bootstraps, one set per person
3. Guns and ammo for killin and eatinz
4. Batteries and flashlights
5. Gold

61 ArchangelMichael  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 11:36:32am

re: #30 oaktree

You may think it's the Silver Bullet panacea for everything, but we don't.

"One man can change the world with a silver bullet in the right place."

62 laZardo  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 11:36:35am

re: #59 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

Meanwhile, we'll still be shitting where we eat, digging for oil shale, polluting our drinking water supply "fracking," and plumbing the depths of our own shores, looking for a couple more barrels of oil, if only to keep our addiction going.

Don't forget invading for it. Oh wait, too late.

63 Gus  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 11:37:23am

re: #50 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

If the GW people are wrong, we spend money and all we get is a cleaner environment, air, water, and a more efficient power system based on alternative energy.

If they're right, we all fucking die.

Tough decision.

The majority of climate change mitigation makes sense even if there weren't any climate change occurring. Cleaner energy, battery technology and electric automobiles, mass transportation, forward thinking urban planning, energy independence, etc. In other words sustainable technology. It can also be a great job creator when indigenous technology and manufacturing is utilized.

64 Interesting Times  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 11:37:39am

re: #59 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

Meanwhile, we'll still be shitting where we eat, digging for oil shale, polluting our drinking water supply "fracking," and plumbing the depths of our own shores, looking for a couple more barrels of oil, if only to keep our addiction going.

Do you want to see something even more maddening about this? It was a little nugget buried in an article paged by researchok, about a lesser-known Koch brother. Apparently, the company this one owned (Oxbow) was once upon a time involved in green energy:

Around 2000, Oxbow sold its geothermal power plants. Goldstein says the corporate execs sensed that the federal subsidies were going to disappear, and that the industry would no longer be stable. So the company that once prided itself on producing green energy switched its focus to fossil fuels—mining natural gas and coal, and becoming the world's largest marketer of petroleum coke, a by-product of oil refining that emits high levels of sulfur and carbon dioxide when burned.

Herp derp! Screw clean energy! Let's give $21 billion in subsidies to oil and fossil fuel companies instead!

65 Kronocide  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 11:40:56am

Reporting from Virginia:

Hurricane Irene has devastated the coast of Virginia. Thousands of homes are destroyed and whole townships are without power. Authorities have commenced Operation Bootstrap, air dropping pallets of bootstraps over the most devastated areas.

66 Amory Blaine  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 11:41:22am

There goes the so-called moderate choice in the GOP.

67 theheat  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 11:43:14am

re: #65 BigPapa

Don't forget the lemons, to make lemonade. (And prevent scurvy.)
//

68 makeitstop  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 11:45:58am

re: #60 BigPapa

Hey Virginia: better get your bootstraps ready!
Eric Cantor

Virginia Emergency Hurricane Supply Checklist:

1. 3 days water per person
2. Bootstraps, one set per person
3. Guns and ammo for killin and eatinz
4. Batteries and flashlights
5. Gold

6. Bible

69 theheat  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 11:47:21am

re: #68 makeitstop

7. Lemons
8. Heritage seeds
9. Gay pr0n (for da mens)

70 Big Steve  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 11:48:22am

Mitt must have a photo album of Rick Perry in his compound.

71 Targetpractice  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 11:51:18am

re: #65 BigPapa

Reporting from Virginia:

Hurricane Irene has devastated the coast of Virginia. Thousands of homes are destroyed and whole townships are without power. Authorities have commenced Operation Bootstrap, air dropping pallets of bootstraps over the most devastated areas.

They do that, expect an angry mob on the steps of the Capital by Monday. Isabel killed 32 people and caused a good deal of damage, a lot of it took years to fully repair. There were folks who, months later, still didn't have power due to all the fallen lines and blown transformers.

72 BongCrodny  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 11:52:13am

re: #13 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Needs more Jesus.


4. Prophet!

73 Big Steve  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 11:52:34am

Is there something wrong with the karma counter today. Looking at some over the last few minutes and the counts are one under the number of people listed as having updinged.

74 darthstar  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 11:54:37am

re: #70 Big Steve

Mitt must have a photo album of Rick Perry in his compound.

Why not? Rick Perry has a photo album of Rick Perry in his compound.

75 Kronocide  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 11:54:39am

re: #71 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

They do that, expect an angry mob on the steps of the Capital by Monday. Isabel killed 32 people and caused a good deal of damage, a lot of it took years to fully repair. There were folks who, months later, still didn't have power due to all the fallen lines and blown transformers.

I doubt debt is on people's minds when Mother Nature decides to trash civilization and infrastructure.

76 lawhawk  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 11:55:03am

Feds downgrade the size of the Marcellus (not Wallace) Shale Formation from 410 trillion cf to 80 trillion cf.

The shale formation has about 84 trillion cubic feet of undiscovered, technically recoverable natural gas, according to the report from the United States Geological Survey. This is drastically lower than the 410 trillion cubic feet that was published earlier this year by the federal Energy Information Administration.

As a result, the Energy Information Administration, which is responsible for quantifying oil and gas supplies, has said it will slash its official estimate for the Marcellus Shale by nearly 80 percent, a move that is likely to generate new questions about how the agency calculates its estimates and why it was so far off in its projections.

The decision by the agency to lower the estimates comes amid growing scrutiny from Congress about how the administration calculates its numbers and why it depends on outside and industry-tied consultants to produce some of its reports.

Accurate estimates are important for lawmakers who are making long-term decisions about subsidies and policies relating to the nation’s energy mix. They are also essential for landowners and investors as they decide where and whether to lease their land to drillers or invest in gas companies. Some market analysts say that the large differences between public estimates for natural gas resources provide further evidence that there may be more risk and uncertainty involved with gas drilling than many investors realize. Amid growing questions about the administration’s research, Howard K. Gruenspecht, the agency’s acting director, appeared before Congress in July to reiterate that, despite some uncertainties, his agency’s estimates were accurate.

It's also likely to affect the ongoing discussion over fracking rules in NYS under consideration, and whether the costs justify the potential harm done in trying to recover that gas from the shale formations.

77 Targetpractice  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 11:58:38am

re: #75 BigPapa

I doubt debt is on people's minds when Mother Nature decides to trash civilization and infrastructure.

If debt factors in, it's the cost to folks to repair their homes afterward. It's lost wages and lost sales, damage to businesses, city services blocked or shut down, food shortages due to inevitable hoarding, and so forth. When you've been through a natural disaster, the last thing you want to hear is some smug prick from D.C., whose district is on the other side of the fucking state, declaring that the Feds can't send aid to you and yours unless that aid is deducted elsewhere from the budget.

78 jaunte  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 11:58:59am

re: #73 Big Steve

Is there something wrong with the karma counter today. Looking at some over the last few minutes and the counts are one under the number of people listed as having updinged.

S&P, they're everywhere.

79 darthstar  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 12:00:10pm

re: #76 lawhawk

Feds downgrade the size of the Marcellus (not Wallace) Shale Formation from 410 trillion cf to 80 trillion cf.

It's also likely to affect the ongoing discussion over fracking rules in NYS under consideration, and whether the costs justify the potential harm done in trying to recover that gas from the shale formations.

What's 330 trillion cubic feet among friends? Nothing, really. A trillion cubic feet of potential natural gas should be motivation enough! And there's no risk to the environment...aside from the obvious ones.

80 makeitstop  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 12:01:54pm
On Fox & Friends Sunday, anchor Clayton Morris admitted that Fox News factcheckers have confirmed that man-made global warming is “certainly” real, but argued that it “doesn’t matter” because climate denial is popular among Fox News-watching conservatives. Morris contrasted Jon Huntsman’s defense of the National Academy of Sciences with Rick Perry’s claims that scientists have “manipulated data” to concoct manmade global warming...
Youtube Video

There you have it. Global warming is real, but it doesn't matter.

81 Prideful, Arrogant Marriage Equality Advocate  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 12:02:28pm

Well, according to the Texas tea party here, they are thrilled about Perry. My MIL and SIL say "If he can do for the rest of the country what he has done down here, He will save the world!" And then they started mumbling something about Jesus returning soon yadda-yadda.
My MIL called me today to tell me about a fantastic guy named Barton and his website and how he is teaching everyone about the true history of America! She said he really has all the other "historians" on the defensive because he has been able to produce so much hidden evidence. And then she started mumbling something about Jesus returning soon yadda-yadda.

82 wrenchwench  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 12:02:47pm

re: #73 Big Steve

Is there something wrong with the karma counter today. Looking at some over the last few minutes and the counts are one under the number of people listed as having updinged.

Note: "Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds" is one nic.

83 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 12:03:11pm

re: #15 darthstar

When he gets full-dunk baptized the day before the South Carolina primary.

While handling snakes and speaking in tongues?

84 Targetpractice  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 12:03:46pm

re: #82 wrenchwench

Note: "Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds" is one nic.

Note to self: Shorten nick or develop split personality...

/

85 Atlas Fails  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 12:04:19pm

I found it hilarious when the candidates at the debate were asked if they believed in evolution and the only ones who did were Romney (who has probably changed his stance by now) and Huntsman. Which religion is a "cult" again?

86 Iwouldprefernotto  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 12:04:26pm

re: #40 lostlakehiker

Is it a good idea to spend trillions of dollars, now, on emissions controls? Money spent now is money not available 10 years later for spending on more advanced versions of the same thing.


When JFK said "let's go to the moon" the technology didn't exist. We invented the tech and made billions from it. (and went to the moon).

OR, if your're a religious nut.

It wasn't raining when Noah built the ark.

87 HappyWarrior  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 12:04:27pm

Mitt "Anything For a Vote" Romney.

88 wrenchwench  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 12:05:00pm

re: #84 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

Note to self: Shorten nick or develop split personality...

/

Or apply for double ding privileges.

89 Amory Blaine  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 12:06:26pm

re: #65 BigPapa

Reporting from Virginia:

Hurricane Irene has devastated the coast of Virginia. Thousands of homes are destroyed and whole townships are without power. Authorities have commenced Operation Bootstrap, air dropping pallets of bootstraps over the most devastated areas.

A true bootstrapper would fashion them out of local materials and not expect the government to hand them out like welfare checks.
/:P

90 Targetpractice  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 12:07:34pm

re: #76 lawhawk

Feds downgrade the size of the Marcellus (not Wallace) Shale Formation from 410 trillion cf to 80 trillion cf.

It's also likely to affect the ongoing discussion over fracking rules in NYS under consideration, and whether the costs justify the potential harm done in trying to recover that gas from the shale formations.

It's always interesting how the industry estimates and the government estimates vary greatly, whether it be in terms of the size of a find, the ease of extracting said find, or the cost of clean-up afterwards. Hell, I keep getting told that industry "experts" estimate that, given proper funding (i.e. huge federal subsidies) and "plenty of time," oil shale could reach $30-40/bbl.

No word of the cost of the resulting environmental damage.

91 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 12:10:35pm

re: #87 HappyWarrior

Mitt "Anything For a Vote" Romney.

I am beginning to favor "Kung Fu Panderer" - quickest flip in the Western World.

92 HappyWarrior  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 12:11:12pm

Mitt's really acting alot like McCain did in 2008. That is to say going back on a lot of the things that made him comparatively reasonable. I really hope if he's the nominee that the Democrats nail Romney the same way John Kerry was and frankly Romney's a bigger flip flopper than Kerry was.

93 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 12:11:50pm

re: #5 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Mitt, you see that glow in the corner of your eye? It's your career dissapation light and it's going into overtime.

Upding for the Backdraft reference.

94 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 12:12:13pm

re: #90 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

It's always interesting how the industry estimates and the government estimates vary greatly, whether it be in terms of the size of a find, the ease of extracting said find, or the cost of clean-up afterwards. Hell, I keep getting told that industry "experts" estimate that, given proper funding (i.e. huge federal subsidies) and "plenty of time," oil shale could reach $30-40/bbl.

No word of the cost of the resulting environmental damage.

It is going to look attractive in any case since it will still be one of the largest natural gas plays in the North America and located quite conveniently close to its major market - the US East Coast.

95 Kragar  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 12:15:46pm

re: #84 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

Note to self: Shorten nick or develop split personality...

/

Go for the split so you can have someone to talk to when you're alone.

96 dragonfire1981  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 12:17:56pm

American political philosophies in a nutshell:

Democratic - wants to regulate your business but not your personal life

Republican - wants to regulate your personal life but not your business.

97 Targetpractice  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 12:20:20pm

re: #96 dragonfire1981

American political philosophies in a nutshell:

Democratic - wants to regulate your business but not your personal life

Republican - wants to regulate your personal life but not your business.

O'Rourke was right when he said that the Republicans are the party that tell you that government doesn't work, then get elected and prove it.

98 dragonfire1981  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 12:20:38pm

You know those "Miss me yet?" George Bush billboards? I gotta feeling if Perry becomes President we are going to see an Obama version of those before too long.

99 Varek Raith  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 12:21:32pm

re: #93 Dark_Falcon

Upding for the Backdraft reference.

I thought that sounded familiar.

100 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 12:24:50pm

re: #94 oaktree

It is going to look attractive in any case since it will still be one of the largest natural gas plays in the North America and located quite conveniently close to its major market - the US East Coast.

True. I'm also inclined to wonder if a downgrade this sharp didn't have an ulterior motive on the part of the government. I could see pressure being applied to reduce the numbers on the find in order to provide cover for environmentalist opposition to the project.

Of course, the reverse is also true. An energy corporation could exert its influence to get inflated estimates of the find published.

101 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 12:26:41pm

re: #99 Varek Raith

I thought that sounded familiar.

Backdraft was set and filmed in Chicago, which makes it of additional relevance to me. In some ways, the city is itself a character in the movie (though not nearly as much as in The Blues Brothers).

102 Varek Raith  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 12:28:22pm

Sad.

MORRIS: If you dive into the weeds a little bit on this global warming thing, you see that it seems that facts are certainly on Huntsman’s side on all of this and fact checkers have come out, we’re actually having our own brain room look look at this right now that any of Perry’s comments don’t seem to hold a lot of water. It doesn’t matter. What’s resonating right now in South Carolina is helping Governor Perry tremendously and he fired back at Huntsman on global warming and gaining traction, facts or not.
103 Amory Blaine  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 12:29:56pm

re: #100 Dark_Falcon

Environmentalists = local citizens bearing the brunt of negative externals.

104 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 12:30:15pm

re: #102 Varek Raith

Sad.

Which Morris said that?

105 Varek Raith  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 12:30:23pm

Cantor Says No Earthquake Disaster Relief For His Home State Unless Spending Is Cut Elsewhere.
Ok, chief. We'll start with the oil industry welfare.

106 Varek Raith  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 12:31:17pm

re: #104 Dark_Falcon

Which Morris said that?

Clayton Morris, Fox&Friends.
Thought it was Dick Morris at first.

107 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 12:32:21pm

re: #103 Amory Blaine

Environmentalists = local citizens bearing the brunt of negative externals.

Not necessarily. Normally there are some such people, but they are actually augmented by out-of-area left-wing environmentalists who are simply opposed to any energy exploration and production.

108 Targetpractice  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 12:32:41pm

re: #105 Varek Raith

Cantor Says No Earthquake Disaster Relief For His Home State Unless Spending Is Cut Elsewhere.
Ok, chief. We'll start with the oil industry welfare.

Fuckin' A!

109 Gus  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 12:33:12pm

New photos. We've got buck!

Image: buck-01.jpg
Image: buck-02.jpg
Image: buck-03.jpg
Image: buck-04.jpg

110 Kragar  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 12:33:15pm

re: #105 Varek Raith

Cantor Says No Earthquake Disaster Relief For His Home State Unless Spending Is Cut Elsewhere.
Ok, chief. We'll start with the oil industry welfare.

Its a sign from God.

The Message? Stop electing asshole.

111 Varek Raith  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 12:33:56pm

re: #109 Gus 802

New photos. We've got buck!

Image: buck-01.jpg
Image: buck-02.jpg
Image: buck-03.jpg
Image: buck-04.jpg

Heh, pic 4.
WTF are you looking at?!?!

112 Kragar  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 12:34:36pm

re: #111 Varek Raith

Heh, pic 4.
WTF are you looking at?!?!

I think you mean "OH HAI!"

113 Bulworth  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 12:35:02pm

re: #105 Varek Raith

Cantor Says No Earthquake Disaster Relief For His Home State Unless Spending Is Cut Elsewhere.
Ok, chief. We'll start with the oil industry welfare.

No, no, no. That would be a job-killing tax increase!

//

114 Varek Raith  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 12:35:42pm

re: #112 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

I think you mean "OH HAI!"

Boring.
:)

115 theheat  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 12:36:34pm

re: #105 Varek Raith

So, who's he gonna get on his knees and blow when there's no funds and a disaster hits? Unless, of course, he can count on the fine citizens of his state to totally "understand."

116 Kragar  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 12:36:57pm

re: #114 Varek Raith

Boring.
:)

Image: tumblr_lf45eqLpq21qgsvaco1_500.jpg

117 bratwurst  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 12:37:02pm

re: #106 Varek Raith

Clayton Morris, Fox&Friends.
Thought it was Dick Morris at first.

I think Morris the Cat would be more likely to say that than Dick Morris!

118 Gus  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 12:37:43pm

re: #116 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Image: tumblr_lf45eqLpq21qgsvaco1_500.jpg

Is that you during your school days?

//

119 Kragar  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 12:37:43pm

re: #115 theheat

So, who's he gonna get on his knees and blow when there's no funds and a disaster hits? Unless, of course, he can count on the fine citizens of his state to totally "understand."

They could hold a Prayer rally.

120 Varek Raith  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 12:39:01pm

re: #119 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

They could hold a Prayer rally.

Perry tried that.
Now there's a hurricane heading this way. After we had an earthquake.
Coincidence?
Yes.
:P

121 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 12:40:49pm

re: #106 Varek Raith

Clayton Morris, Fox&Friends.
Thought it was Dick Morris at first.

Me too. The words somewhat looked like how Dick Morris talks.

122 albusteve  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 12:41:37pm

re: #109 Gus 802

New photos. We've got buck!

Image: buck-01.jpg
Image: buck-02.jpg
Image: buck-03.jpg
Image: buck-04.jpg

blacktail...good eatin

123 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 12:41:48pm

re: #109 Gus 802

New photos. We've got buck!

Image: buck-01.jpg
Image: buck-02.jpg
Image: buck-03.jpg
Image: buck-04.jpg

Oh, deer.

124 Varek Raith  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 12:42:31pm

re: #123 Dark_Falcon

Oh, deer.

*Sigh*

125 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 12:43:24pm

re: #120 Varek Raith

Perry tried that.
Now there's a hurricane heading this way. After we had an earthquake.
Coincidence?
Yes.
:P

It means you're a soulless vampire abomination and the crowds prayers to have you swept from the earth moved God to destroy you.

/Must I?

126 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 12:43:55pm

re: #100 Dark_Falcon

True. I'm also inclined to wonder if a downgrade this sharp didn't have an ulterior motive on the part of the government. I could see pressure being applied to reduce the numbers on the find in order to provide cover for environmentalist opposition to the project.

Of course, the reverse is also true. An energy corporation could exert its influence to get inflated estimates of the find published.

My brother's presentation slides on the Marcellus listed three sets of numbers:
USGS Survey (2006)
259 Tcf gas-in-place (Tcf = trillion cubic feet)
1.9 Tcf recoverable

Industry-Academic estimates
500 to 5,000 Tcf in place
50 to 500 Tcf recoverable

Rational optimism
1600 Tcf in place
100-200 Tcf recoverable

So, for whatever number they trot out assume that only 10-12% of that amount is actually recoverable gas.

And the 800 Tcf is still the largest gas shale deposit in the US, and a very large one on a global scale as well. And it has a higher organic content and is at a shallower location than most of the gas shale plays.

Lots of positives for it including limestone layers above and below for containment. That NY and PA are full of stress faults means that there is groundwater contamination risk - but the extent will be unknown.

What has to be worked out now is that if/when bad things happen during exploitation who is responsible for paying for the cleanup and how much do the companies have to put down in advance towards covering those expenses along with the expected behaviors to reduce damages while carrying out the process. (Water injection and treating the 1/3-1/2 of the water that comes right back out.)

127 makeitstop  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 12:44:46pm

Give 'em hell, Minnesota!

GOP Rep. Cravaack Finally Holds Town Hall, Gets Pointed Questions On Pell Grants, Taxes

“I am this future you keep taking about — the future you keep talking about piling debt on,” Johnson continued. “And this is the future speaking, asking why you aren’t raising taxes on people who can afford it.” Johnson’s comments were met with wild applause and cheers from the crowd.

128 albusteve  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 12:45:02pm

listening to Hoops play the guitar....cool cover of Street Corner Talkin' by Savoy Brown....pretty friggin good, Hoops can play

129 laZardo  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 12:45:09pm

re: #109 Gus 802

New photos. We've got buck!

Image: buck-01.jpg
Image: buck-02.jpg
Image: buck-03.jpg
Image: buck-04.jpg

BAMBI NOOO~

/

130 Killgore Trout  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 12:45:14pm

re: #109 Gus 802

New photos. We've got buck!

Image: buck-01.jpg
Image: buck-02.jpg
Image: buck-03.jpg
Image: buck-04.jpg

Very handsome!

131 Kragar  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 12:45:21pm

re: #118 Gus 802

Is that you during your school days?

//

Business cat is serious business

132 Amory Blaine  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 12:45:29pm

re: #109 Gus 802

He looks delicious.

133 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 12:46:19pm

re: #126 oaktree

My brother's presentation slides on the Marcellus listed three sets of numbers:
USGS Survey (2006)
259 Tcf gas-in-place (Tcf = trillion cubic feet)
1.9 Tcf recoverable

Industry-Academic estimates
500 to 5,000 Tcf in place
50 to 500 Tcf recoverable

Rational optimism
1600 Tcf in place
100-200 Tcf recoverable

So, for whatever number they trot out assume that only 10-12% of that amount is actually recoverable gas.

And the 800 Tcf is still the largest gas shale deposit in the US, and a very large one on a global scale as well. And it has a higher organic content and is at a shallower location than most of the gas shale plays.

Lots of positives for it including limestone layers above and below for containment. That NY and PA are full of stress faults means that there is groundwater contamination risk - but the extent will be unknown.

What has to be worked out now is that if/when bad things happen during exploitation who is responsible for paying for the cleanup and how much do the companies have to put down in advance towards covering those expenses along with the expected behaviors to reduce damages while carrying out the process. (Water injection and treating the 1/3-1/2 of the water that comes right back out.)

Perhaps part of the extraction deal should be filtration systems for the local water pumping facilities. That would reduce the risk, would it not?

134 Gus  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 12:49:18pm

re: #129 laZardo

BAMBI NOOO~

/

Didn't realize how muscular he was until I looked at the images for a bit. Wouldn't want to mess with this guy. Even though I did walk up to him. They're kind of used to me.

135 HappyWarrior  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 12:50:14pm

re: #105 Varek Raith

Cantor Says No Earthquake Disaster Relief For His Home State Unless Spending Is Cut Elsewhere.
Ok, chief. We'll start with the oil industry welfare.

Thanks Eric. Making us Virginians look real classy. Sheesh Cantor is such a whiny brat.

136 Kragar  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 12:50:56pm

And Pat Robertson finally chimes in:

Crack In The Washington Monument Was A Sign From God


Robertson: Ladies and gentlemen I don’t want to get weird on this so please take it for what it’s worth. But it seems to me the Washington Monument is a symbol of America’s power, it has been the symbol of our great nation, we look at that monument and say this is one nation under God. Now there’s a crack in it, there’s a crack in it and it’s closed up. Is that a sign from the Lord? Is that something that has significance or is it just result of an earthquake? You judge, but I just want to bring that to your attention. It seems to me symbolic. When Jesus was crucified and when he died the curtain in the Temple was rent from top to bottom and there was a tear and it was extremely symbolic, is this symbolic? You judge.

Its a sign from God to take structural reinforcement seriously!

HE HAS SPOKEN!

137 Varek Raith  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 12:51:10pm

re: #135 HappyWarrior

Thanks Eric. Making us Virginians look real classy. Sheesh Cantor is such a whiny brat.

Well, I'm in NoVa so I ain't considered a "real" Virginian.
Heh.

138 Gus  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 12:51:31pm

Klunk...

Poll: 51% still blame George W. Bush for economy

139 Sheila Broflovski  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 12:51:56pm

re: #136 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Robertson: Ladies and gentlemen I don’t want to get weird on this so please take it for what it’s worth. But it seems to me the Washington Monument is a symbol of America’s power, it has been the symbol of our great nation, we look at that monument and say this is one nation under God. Now there’s a crack in it

Now it matches the Liberty Bell!

140 darthstar  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 12:51:57pm

re: #136 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

And Pat Robertson finally chimes in:

Crack In The Washington Monument Was A Sign From God

Its a sign from God to take structural reinforcement seriously!

HE HAS SPOKEN!

The crack in Pat's ass is a sign from god.

141 Varek Raith  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 12:52:21pm

re: #136 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

And Pat Robertson finally chimes in:

Crack In The Washington Monument Was A Sign From God

Its a sign from God to take structural reinforcement seriously!

HE HAS SPOKEN!

Way too subtle a message. I mean, make the cracks spew blood and fire and unicorns. That'll get our attention!
Or not.

142 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 12:52:43pm

re: #133 Dark_Falcon

Perhaps part of the extraction deal should be filtration systems for the local water pumping facilities. That would reduce the risk, would it not?

Probably a bit more complex than that since a lot of the play is in rurual areas that do not use centralized water. And depending on what the contamination consists of the treatment might not be that straightforward.

One ironic thing is that the water coming out of wells in PA that are being fracked is not processed in PA since they don't have the proper facilities to process it*. The water is being treated in NY, where they have the moratorium in place on the process still.

And the fact that besides ground water contamination you also need to provide for coverage regarding accidents on the surface with the drilling process and transporting the contaminated injection water to treatment. I believe the one big mess in PA was due to a well back-blasting during the injection process and polluting a creek and surrounding farmland heavily.

* - The shale has enough thorium and uranium in it to require treatment as well as getting the low concentrations of the various special fracking chemicals out. Radon gas issues are a known thing in the Northeast and the various black shales are partially responsible.

143 MittDoesNotCompute  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 12:52:45pm

re: #136 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

And Pat Robertson finally chimes in:

Crack In The Washington Monument Was A Sign From God

Its a sign from God to take structural reinforcement seriously!

HE HAS SPOKEN!

Pat, go dodder off and eat a bag of shit, k?

144 HappyWarrior  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 12:52:53pm

re: #137 Varek Raith

Well, I'm in NoVa so I ain't considered a "real" Virginian.
Heh.

Yeah me too. Wonder if Allen tries that shit again.

145 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 12:53:14pm

re: #136 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

And Pat Robertson finally chimes in:

Crack In The Washington Monument Was A Sign From God

Its a sign from God to take structural reinforcement seriously!

HE HAS SPOKEN!

He's not claiming it's a sign, he just wants "to bring that to your attention" because he finds it "symbolic". This is of the same kind as Glenn Beck's "I'm just asking questions" shtick.

146 Gus  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 12:53:16pm

Klunk...

Obama Leadership Image Takes a Hit, GOP Ratings Decline
Continued Dissatisfaction with Republican Field

Just 22% approve of the job performance of Republican congressional leaders, down from 36% in February. Ratings for Democratic leaders are only somewhat better (29% approve). More generally, the Republican Party’s favorable rating has declined from 43% in early February to 34% currently. At 43%, the Democratic Party is viewed more favorably than the GOP, but it too was rated a bit better earlier in the year (47% in February).

148 Olsonist  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 12:54:22pm

re: #140 darthstar

The crack in Pat's ass is a sign from god.

Yes, god is saying:

The End Is Near.

.

149 Gus  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 12:54:56pm

Suddenly got hot. Ick.

150 engineer cat  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 12:55:03pm

re: #136 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

And Pat Robertson finally chimes in:

Crack In The Washington Monument Was A Sign From God

and here i thought the crack in mah butt was a sign from god

151 engineer cat  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 12:55:53pm

re: #140 darthstar

The crack in Pat's ass is a sign from god.

oh darn you to heck for beating me to it! darn you!

152 darthstar  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 12:56:29pm

re: #150 engineer dog

and here i thought the crack in mah butt was a sign from god

Or an open invitation.

153 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 12:56:36pm

re: #138 Gus 802

Klunk...

Poll: 51% still blame George W. Bush for economy

From the Yahoo article Politico linked to:

More than 6 in 10 — 63 percent — disapprove of Obama's handling of the economy. Nearly half, or 48 percent, "strongly" disapproved. Approval of his economic performance now stands at just 36 percent, his worst approval rating on the issue in AP-GfK polling.

154 AK-47%  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 12:57:08pm

Even his flip-flop will not wash: true AGW deniers will not even accept that the planet is warming or that we have the least role in it. Mitt has admittied that it is getting hotter and that he is not sure if we are the prime cause of it...that is far from the hard line that a lot of perry supporters hold.

155 HappyWarrior  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 12:57:20pm

re: #147 Lidane

Fox News: ‘Facts Are Certainly’ On The Side Of Global Warming, But ‘It Doesn’t Matter’

It doesn't matter because many voters in the GOP base could give two shits about the environment. Stupid idiots don't seem to realize environmental problems affect everyone.

156 darthstar  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 12:58:10pm

Okay... meeting time. Work sucks right now, by the way...but I'll deal with it.

Cheers, everyone.

157 AK-47%  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 12:59:31pm

re: #155 HappyWarrior

Stupid idiots don't seem to realize environmental problems affect everyone.

Only over the long run and these guys are only in it for the short-term profits.

158 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 12:59:50pm

re: #153 Dark_Falcon

From the Yahoo article Politico linked to:

More than 6 in 10 — 63 percent — disapprove of Obama's handling of the economy. Nearly half, or 48 percent, "strongly" disapproved. Approval of his economic performance now stands at just 36 percent, his worst approval rating on the issue in AP-GfK polling.

I'd also like to see the breakdown on how many of those polled are registered to vote and among those what the breakdown was by party affiliation or lack thereof. Those are the things that tell you how reliable a poll is.

159 engineer cat  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 1:00:23pm

re: #138 Gus 802

Klunk...

Poll: 51% still blame George W. Bush for economy

...in other news, nearly 51% of americans report strange sensations resembling rational thought...

160 Kragar  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 1:00:55pm

Diamond World Discovered by Astronomers

161 Varek Raith  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 1:01:27pm

re: #160 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Diamond World Discovered by Astronomers

Heh.
De Beers freakout!!!
/

162 Lidane  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 1:03:37pm

re: #155 HappyWarrior

It doesn't matter because many voters in the GOP base could give two shits about the environment. Stupid idiots don't seem to realize environmental problems affect everyone.

Who cares? We're in the End Times. Once the Rapture happens, Real Americans won't be here anyway.

///

163 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 1:04:38pm

re: #153 Dark_Falcon

From the Yahoo article Politico linked to:

More than 6 in 10 — 63 percent — disapprove of Obama's handling of the economy. Nearly half, or 48 percent, "strongly" disapproved. Approval of his economic performance now stands at just 36 percent, his worst approval rating on the issue in AP-GfK polling.

The Yahoo article's comments, of course, are a sewer:

*
michael 2 hours ago Report Abuse

Your'e right Tom. Americans love Obama. Thats why he has a 36% approval rating and 11% feel the economy is moving in the right direction. And I'm sure the 20% who were unemployed or underemployed love him to. Of course if you are a leech or an illegal invader you love Obama which explains why his appproval rate is so high. But don't worry Tom maybe you can become his spokesman after Jay Carney leaves.

Reply
*
michael
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michael 5 hours ago Report Abuse

Its nice to see that the Obama leeches and parasites are up early this morning. Thats right no one blames Obama for running up 4 trillion dollars in new debt in just 3 years. Hey Tom why don't you take a job in the Obama administration, its clear you work for him.

Replies (1)
*
catnip
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catnip 8 hours ago Report Abuse

President Obama has been an embarrassment to our country.
He has failed to be the leader he promised to be and he's done more harm to this country than good imo.
The worse part,for those of us looking for real change,is that the republican field opposing him for the job of president looks as bad as Obama looks with the exception of Ron Paul and Paul''s age scares me a bit about him.

Reply
*

So one guy calls Obama's supporters "leeches and parasites" while the major concern the next poster has with Ron Paul is his age (Though that is a valid concern, as Ron Paul is actually older than John McCain).

164 Interesting Times  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 1:04:38pm

re: #158 Dark_Falcon

I'd also like to see the breakdown on how many of those polled are registered to vote and among those what the breakdown was by party affiliation or lack thereof.

I'd like to see a breakdown of how many people who disapproved of Obama's handling of the economy did so because he keeps giving in to GOP demands.

165 Killgore Trout  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 1:04:46pm

re: #146 Gus 802

Klunk...

Obama Leadership Image Takes a Hit, GOP Ratings Decline
Continued Dissatisfaction with Republican Field

from the link...

Just 22% approve of the job performance of Republican congressional leaders, down from 36% in February. Ratings for Democratic leaders are only somewhat better (29% approve). More generally, the Republican Party’s favorable rating has declined from 43% in early February to 34% currently. At 43%, the Democratic Party is viewed more favorably than the GOP, but it too was rated a bit better earlier in the year (47% in February).


It's kind of like the old joke: You don't have to outrun the bear, you just have to outrun your fellow campers.

166 laZardo  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 1:05:07pm

re: #160 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Diamond World Discovered by Astronomers

Youtube Video

/THROW YOUR DIAMONDS IN THE SKY IF YOU FEEL THE VIBE

167 Lidane  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 1:05:54pm

re: #164 publicityStunted

I'd like to see a breakdown of how many people who disapproved of Obama's handling of the economy did so because he keeps giving in to GOP demands.

Yeah, this.

168 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 1:07:31pm

re: #160 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Diamond World Discovered by Astronomers

The aliens will attack now that we're aware of it and might crash the market and destroy their economy!

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

169 Charles Johnson  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 1:08:20pm

And now I must test something.

It involves blockquotes.

As you can see.

170 HappyWarrior  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 1:08:49pm

re: #162 Lidane

///

What's sad is that exact attitude does exist. Bugs the crap out of me when my ten year old brother and cousin seem to understand science issues better than Republican candidates. Or at least show what they know since these guys are panderers to anti-science which is just as bad if not worse than not knowing if you ask me.

171 Atlas Fails  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 1:09:05pm

re: #160 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Diamond World Discovered by Astronomers

Youtube Video
172 Gus  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 1:10:06pm

re: #158 Dark_Falcon

I'd also like to see the breakdown on how many of those polled are registered to vote and among those what the breakdown was by party affiliation or lack thereof. Those are the things that tell you how reliable a poll is.

Lost my connection. Won't debate this poll. Having lunch now too. ;)

173 Lidane  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 1:10:16pm

re: #161 Varek Raith

Heh.
De Beers freakout!!!
/

Suddenly, DeBeers starts giving money to NASA. Lawl.

174 HappyWarrior  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 1:10:24pm

I think there's a number of people and I include myself among them that wish Obama would be more tough in dealing with the Republicans. He gives them a very favorable deal and they still act like he's this sinister Marxist who hates America. Now, I realize that this is politics and the object is to win but sheesh the way Obama is painted by his right wing opponents is pure crap.

175 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 1:10:38pm

re: #172 Gus 802

Lost my connection. Won't debate this poll. Having lunch now too. ;)

Chez Gus instead of Che Gus today I see...

176 AK-47%  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 1:10:49pm

Mr Shine him diamond

177 HappyWarrior  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 1:10:55pm

re: #174 HappyWarrior

I think there's a number of people and I include myself among them that wish Obama would be more tough in dealing with the Republicans. He gives them a very favorable deal and they still act like he's this sinister Marxist who hates America. Now, I realize that this is politics and the object is to win but sheesh the way Obama is painted by his right wing opponents is pure crap.

By deal, I am referring to the deal that averted the default.

178 Gus  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 1:11:03pm
Testing block quote.

Testing block quote.

Testing block quote.

Testing block quote.

179 Charles Johnson  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 1:11:47pm

Another test of the blockquote regex.

This had only one linefeed in front of it.

Now there should be two, both before and after.

180 Gus  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 1:12:48pm

re: #175 oaktree

Chez Gus instead of Che Gus today I see...

"Tai Pei" beef and broccoli.

181 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 1:14:27pm

re: #172 Gus 802

Lost my connection. Won't debate this poll. Having lunch now too. ;)

Nothing to debate without the breakdown, since that's the critical information in gauging a poll's reliability.

182 AK-47%  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 1:15:06pm

re: #177 HappyWarrior

By deal, I am referring to the deal that averted the default.

The default that could easily have been averted well before the the last minute

183 lawhawk  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 1:15:10pm

Hurricane Irene update. Looks like the models and predictions are pushing the storm inland (West) - with the eye coming in over North Carolina - between Wilmington and Cape Hatteras. Real bad news for the Tar Heels, but for those in the NYC metro area, this may be good news as the storm should lose its punch by the time it gets up to us. We're going to see lots of rain and some wind but far better than had the storm stayed over open water before reaching these parts.

184 HappyWarrior  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 1:15:31pm

re: #182 ralphieboy

The default that could easily have been averted well before the the last minute

No arguments there.

185 lawhawk  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 1:16:46pm

re: #178 Gus 802

It's blocks all the way down...

It's blocks all the way down...

It's blocks all the way down...

It's blocks all the way down...

It's blocks all the way down...

It's blocks all the way down...

186 Varek Raith  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 1:17:54pm

re: #178 Gus 802

What manner of sorcery is this?!

187 Gus  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 1:18:31pm

The latest conservative trend. Blame the poor for everything.

The Sources of Poverty
August 24, 2011 12:27 P.M.
By David French

It is simply a fact that our social problems are increasingly connected to the depravity of the poor. If an American works hard, completes their education, gets married, and stays married, then they will rarely — very rarely — be poor. At the same time, poverty is the handmaiden of illegitimacy, divorce, ignorance, and addiction. As we have poured money into welfare, we’ve done nothing to address the behaviors that lead to poverty while doing all we can to make that poverty more comfortable and sustainable.

188 Kragar  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 1:18:45pm

re: #186 Varek Raith

What manner of sorcery is this?!

What manner of man are you that can summon up fire without flint or tinder?

189 Gus  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 1:19:21pm

re: #186 Varek Raith

What manner of sorcery is this?!

Just a quote that I coped and pasted over and over again right before the last closed code. If that makes sense.

190 makeitstop  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 1:20:00pm

re: #187 Gus 802

The latest conservative trend. Blame the poor for everything.

The Sources of Poverty
August 24, 2011 12:27 P.M.
By David French

'The Depravity of the poor??'

David French, whoever he is, can bite me.

191 Kragar  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 1:20:04pm

re: #187 Gus 802

The latest conservative trend. Blame the poor for everything.

The Sources of Poverty
August 24, 2011 12:27 P.M.
By David French

If they loved Jesus, they couldn't be poor.
/

192 albusteve  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 1:20:10pm

re: #185 lawhawk

Burma Shave

193 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 1:20:50pm

re: #188 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

What manner of man are you that can summon up fire without flint or tinder?

It's got a vicious streak a mile wide!

194 Gus  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 1:21:15pm

re: #190 makeitstop

'The Depravity of the poor??'

David French, whoever he is, can bite me.

Image: david-french-300x222.jpg

195 Kragar  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 1:21:18pm

re: #193 oaktree

It's got a vicious streak a mile wide!

LOOK AT THE BONES!

196 HappyWarrior  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 1:21:47pm

re: #187 Gus 802

The latest conservative trend. Blame the poor for everything.

The Sources of Poverty
August 24, 2011 12:27 P.M.
By David French

It's typical. For all modern conservatives talk about how they like Christ and Christianity, they've been more like Ayn Rand on the plight of the poor and downtrotten then Christ. It's pathetic crap.

197 Kragar  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 1:22:50pm

re: #194 Gus 802

Image: david-french-300x222.jpg

Alliance Defense Fund - The Alliance Defense Fund (ADF) is a conservative Christian nonprofit organization with the stated goal of "defending the right to hear and speak the Truth through strategy, training, funding, and litigation."

198 makeitstop  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 1:24:16pm

re: #194 Gus 802

Image: david-french-300x222.jpg

Now, that's what you call a 'punch-me' face.

/not advocating anything

199 Gus  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 1:24:34pm

re: #196 HappyWarrior

It's typical. For all modern conservatives talk about how they like Christ and Christianity, they've been more like Ayn Rand on the plight of the poor and downtrotten then Christ. It's pathetic crap.

Yeah. You know those poor people. Always causing wars, famine, disease, increasing tuition costs, charging high interest rates, turning down people for pre-existing conditions, economic depressions and recession. Why this current recession was caused by poor people.

//

200 harrylook  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 1:25:48pm

Why pay attention to what these guys say during a campaign since they won't actually do most of it if elected? Especially eternal flip-flopper Romney. Politicians are all politics all the time. All of 'em.

201 laZardo  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 1:25:57pm

re: #160 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Look at your planet. Now back to mine. Sadly, your planet isn't mine. But if you weren't fucking it up with endless conflict and pollution, then your planet could be more like mine.

Look again. My planet is now diamonds.

202 lawhawk  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 1:25:59pm

re: #193 oaktree

I warrrrnnnnedd you..... /

203 HappyWarrior  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 1:26:24pm

re: #199 Gus 802

Yeah. You know those poor people. Always causing wars, famine, disease, increasing tuition costs, charging high interest rates, turning down people for pre-existing conditions, economic depressions and recession. Why this current recession was caused by poor people.

//

Yep. Damn poor people. It's sickening and engaging in scapegoating which is amusing since whenever it's proposed the rich pay their taxes, the person suggesting is accused of just that but it's okay to piss on the poor. These assholes make me sick.

204 laZardo  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 1:26:56pm

re: #196 HappyWarrior

It's typical. For all modern conservatives talk about how they like Christ and Christianity, they've been more like Ayn Rand on the plight of the poor and downtrotten then Christ. It's pathetic crap.

"WHATEVER YOU DO FOR THE LEAST OF MY BROTHERS, ETC." - Jesus

205 Interesting Times  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 1:27:47pm

re: #194 Gus 802

Image: david-french-300x222.jpg

He bears a disturbing resemblance to Louie Gohmert (R-Derp)

...and is about on the same level intellectually.

206 Kragar  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 1:28:54pm

re: #204 laZardo

"WHATEVER YOU DO FOR THE LEAST OF MY BROTHERS, ETC." - Jesus

Isn't there a part in the Bible where Jesus condemns the poor and meek for being lazy sinners? It seems like there has to be, right?

207 AK-47%  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 1:29:10pm

re: #196 HappyWarrior

It's typical. For all modern conservatives talk about how they like Christ and Christianity, they've been more like Ayn Rand on the plight of the poor and downtrotten then Christ. It's pathetic crap.

Why is it that the people who reject Evolution seem to embrace Social Darwinism?

208 Gus  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 1:29:58pm

re: #203 HappyWarrior

Yep. Damn poor people. It's sickening and engaging in scapegoating which is amusing since whenever it's proposed the rich pay their taxes, the person suggesting is accused of just that but it's okay to piss on the poor. These assholes make me sick.

Bad enough they have refrigerators.

//

209 Renaissance_Man  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 1:30:00pm

re: #196 HappyWarrior

It's typical. For all modern conservatives talk about how they like Christ and Christianity, they've been more like Ayn Rand on the plight of the poor and downtrotten then Christ. It's pathetic crap.

One of the saddest stories of this great nation is how a group of reactionary radicals stole the word 'conservative' to define themselves and used it as an excuse to be unbelievable arseholes at all times.

210 Obdicut  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 1:30:14pm

re: #199 Gus 802

Youtube Video


That's Utah Phillips. I think you'd like him.

211 wrenchwench  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 1:32:11pm

re: #210 Obdicut

[Video]
That's Utah Phillips. I think you'd like him.

When I think of him, I always think of the phrase, "Her frock was lodged..." from a story he told. And Moose Turd Pie.

212 HappyWarrior  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 1:33:07pm

re: #209 Renaissance_Man

One of the saddest stories of this great nation is how a group of reactionary radicals stole the word 'conservative' to define themselves and used it as an excuse to be unbelievable arseholes at all times.

Can't argue with that. I am not a conservative but I am not so ideologically blind to deny that conservatism is incapable of bringing forth legitimate ideas to the table of ideas, these reactionaries (I like reactionary better than conservative) are a bunch of Know-Nothing jerks.

213 Gus  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 1:33:34pm

commentText

214 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 1:34:05pm

re: #213 Gus 802

Fascinating isn't it? A call to let the Bush tax cuts for the rich is met not only with the typical "culture war" meme but now includes the demonizing of the poor and lower-middle class.

Pencil time, Gus.

215 Kragar  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 1:34:55pm

re: #213 Gus 802

Fascinating isn't it? A call to let the Bush tax cuts for the rich is met not only with the typical "culture war" meme but now includes the demonizing of the poor and lower-middle class.

The weight of history is nothing before the Word of God!
/

216 HappyWarrior  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 1:35:28pm

The best part for me is these same people call liberals and the left "elitist" but then they compare the poor to animals and act like they're the scum of the earth. That's real elitism, people. But hey let's whine about Eastcoasters and city folk and how they're not "real Americans" because they trend left in their values.

217 Gus  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 1:36:10pm

I just lost my pencil! LOL

218 Gus  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 1:36:42pm

Repost.

Fascinating isn't it? A call to let the Bush tax cuts for the rich is met not only with the typical "culture war" meme but now includes the demonizing of the poor and lower-middle class.

219 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 1:37:48pm

testtesttesttestre: #195 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

LOOK AT THE BONES!

What? Behind the rabbit?

220 Gus  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 1:39:11pm

Democrat: It is high time we let the Bush tax cuts for the rich expire.

Republican: LOOK! A POOR PERSON!

221 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 1:40:20pm

re: #208 Gus 802

Bad enough they have refrigerators.

//

You'd think someone could make a modest proposal on how to swiftly handle this issue.

222 Kragar  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 1:40:21pm

re: #220 Gus 802

Republican: LOOK! A POOR PERSON!

GET HIM!

223 engineer cat  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 1:42:09pm

re: #174 HappyWarrior

I think there's a number of people and I include myself among them that wish Obama would be more tough in dealing with the Republicans. He gives them a very favorable deal and they still act like he's this sinister Marxist who hates America. Now, I realize that this is politics and the object is to win but sheesh the way Obama is painted by his right wing opponents is pure crap.

perceptions of him reflect the divides in american politics today

Obama is a (select one):

1. Radical Marxist Atheist Who Hates America

2. Moderate Progressive Or Centrist

3. Craven Corporatist Tool Who Is Really A Republican But Worse Because He Pretends To Be A Democrat

224 engineer cat  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 1:43:14pm

re: #220 Gus 802

Democrat: It is high time we let the Bush tax cuts for the rich expire.

Republican: LOOK! A POOR PERSON!

SQUIRREL!

225 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 1:43:23pm

re: #220 Gus 802

Democrat: It is high time we let the Bush tax cuts for the rich expire.

Republican: Raising taxes just gives the government more money to waste. Cut spending instead.

Edited for accuracy.

226 Gus  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 1:43:26pm

The meek rich shall inherit the Earth.

//

227 Varek Raith  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 1:43:40pm

re: #223 engineer dog

perceptions of him reflect the divides in american politics today

Obama is a (select one):

1. Radical Marxist Atheist Who Hates America

2. Moderate Progressive Or Centrist

3. Craven Corporatist Tool Who Is Really A Republican But Worse Because He Pretends To Be A Democrat

1. What wingnuts believe.

2. What I believe.

3. What FireBaggers believe.

228 Lidane  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 1:45:35pm

I swear, Huntsman must be making some kind of play for 2016, or something. This isn't going to win him friends in 2012, even if he weasels out of saying anything about higher taxes:

Huntsman Says He "Wouldn't Hestitate" to Ask the Rich to Make Sacrifices in Deficit Reduction

Yeah. That's going to help him in the GOP primaries.

229 Lidane  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 1:45:54pm

re: #225 Dark_Falcon

Edited for accuracy.

Nah. It was right the first time.

230 recusancy  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 1:46:30pm

commentText

231 Targetpractice  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 1:46:40pm

re: #220 Gus 802

Democrat: It is high time we let the Bush tax cuts for the rich expire.

Republican: The poor don't pay taxes! They should pay their fair share before the rich pay more!

FTFY

232 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 1:48:23pm

re: #230 recusancy

It's all the same. When he says cut spending, he means on the poor.

I'd actually point out that Medicare is the place where restructuring is most needed now. That programs is on course for bankruptcy, and needs a to be altered massively.

233 Charles Johnson  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 1:48:30pm

Oops. Sorry, small bug there in the comment editing, fixed now.

234 Gus  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 1:48:53pm

re: #225 Dark_Falcon

Edited for accuracy.

The Bush tax cuts weren't meant to be permanent. So it's a bit misleading to say that it would be completely a tax hike. If they were meant to be permanent they shouldn't have included an "expiration date."

In any event it was still accurate. The current trend by the Republicans and Fox News is to, roughly speaking, say "LOOK! A POOR PERSON!"

235 makeitstop  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 1:49:10pm

re: #228 Lidane

I swear, Huntsman must be making some kind of play for 2016, or something. This isn't going to win him friends in 2012, even if he weasels out of saying anything about higher taxes:

Huntsman Says He "Wouldn't Hestitate" to Ask the Rich to Make Sacrifices in Deficit Reduction

Yeah. That's going to help him in the GOP primaries.

Dead campaign walking.

236 engineer cat  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 1:49:11pm

re: #220 Gus 802

Democrat: It is high time we let the Bush tax cuts for the rich expire.

Republican: LOOK! A POOR PERSON!

rhetoric from the right concerning low income people and immigrants these days reminds me of the old fashioned hustlers who would distract the mark with a line of patter warning them about all the thieves and pickpockets they've spotted in the neighborhood at the same time they're lifting his pocketwatch and wallet

237 Targetpractice  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 1:50:03pm

re: #232 Dark_Falcon

I'd actually point out that Medicare is the place where restructuring is most needed now. That programs is on course for bankruptcy, and needs a to be altered massively.

Medicare needs reform, yes. But privatization, whether partially or fully, is NOT reform.

238 Obdicut  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 1:50:06pm

re: #234 Gus 802

The Bush tax cuts weren't meant to be permanent. So it's a bit misleading to say that it would be completely a tax hike. If they were meant to be permanent they shouldn't have included an "expiration date."

In any event it was still accurate. The current trend by the Republicans and Fox News is to, roughly speaking, say "LOOK! A POOR PERSON!"

Imagine if Obama extended the stimulus every year, or even a portion of it. People would freak. And yet the supposedly-temporary Bush Tax cuts get extended as though they were ever meant to be that way.

239 Decatur Deb  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 1:50:17pm

re: #228 Lidane

I swear, Huntsman must be making some kind of play for 2016, or something. This isn't going to win him friends in 2012, even if he weasels out of saying anything about higher taxes:

Huntsman Says He "Wouldn't Hestitate" to Ask the Rich to Make Sacrifices in Deficit Reduction

Yeah. That's going to help him in the GOP primaries.

Obviously positioning himself for the Great Day when the GOP returns to sanity, having tried everything else. 2016, 2020, 2024. someday...

240 Obdicut  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 1:50:44pm

re: #237 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

Medicare needs reform, yes. But privatization, whether partially or fully, is NOT reform.

It's impossible to privatize. They represent the most-needy population. No for profit-company wants them.

We need single-payer.

241 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 1:50:44pm

From CNN Money:

The critical facts that no one mentioned in the debt debate

Hiking taxes on the rich has a long history of backfiring. Let's learn from history.

By Geoff Colvin, senior-editor-at-large

FORTUNE -- Is it socially and politically okay to do what we've just done -- commit to cutting federal spending by trillions without asking anyone to pitch in by paying higher taxes? The answer is yes. In this case it's definitely okay, current market fluctuations notwithstanding. But the reasons have nothing to do with anything said by either side in the debt ceiling debate. And if we do get higher taxes down the road, as we may, they're unlikely to be a social boon for the nation or a political win for anyone.

Both sides tried to claim the moral high ground in this debate. President Obama said it was unfair to cut programs that benefit the middle class without making "millionaires and billionaires" pay higher taxes. Republican leaders said raising taxes slowed the economy and cost jobs, which we couldn't afford with unemployment over 9%.

Far more important is what neither side told us. Taxes are going up anyway, on millionaires, billionaires, and everybody else, because the Bush tax cuts expire at the end of next year. As a result, estimates the Congressional Budget Office, federal tax revenue over the next decade will be greater by $3.5 trillion (or about 10%) than it would under a continuation of current policy. The spending cuts in the debt deal would reduce federal spending by about 5% over the next decade. So it looks as if we'll all be pitching in plenty.

But what about appearances? For the sake of social harmony, shouldn't the rich be seen to bear a greater share of this burden? Consider a couple of other things nobody is telling us. Raising taxes on millionaires and billionaires in the U.S. accomplishes little and sometimes nothing. Maryland raised taxes on millionaires in 2008, and so many millionaires left the state that tax revenue from the group didn't rise as intended, but fell dramatically. New York tried the same thing, after which then-governor David Paterson, a liberal Democrat, said, "I won't make that mistake again." He was succeeded by another liberal Democrat, Andrew Cuomo, who faces a huge deficit but strongly opposes renewing the millionaire's tax.

The reason for these surprising facts is that the U.S. already leans harder on the rich than any other developed nation. Research from the OECD shows that the richest decile pays a higher proportion of the nation's taxes in the U.S. (45%) than in any of the organization's 23 other member countries. That top decile also earns a higher proportion of total income in the U.S. (33.5%) than in most other countries, but when you compute the ratios, as the nonpartisan Tax Foundation has done, the U.S. puts the heaviest tax burden on its rich. Trying to extract more from them doesn't work.

242 Gus  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 1:51:15pm

Tax cuts for the wealthy creates jobs!

//

243 recusancy  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 1:51:50pm

re: #232 Dark_Falcon

I'd actually point out that Medicare is the place where restructuring is most needed now. That programs is on course for bankruptcy, and needs a to be altered massively.

And your proposition for making it cheaper to treat a sick person is?

244 albusteve  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 1:52:18pm

that's a lot of fine print...too much
I pass

245 Targetpractice  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 1:52:26pm

re: #240 Obdicut

It's impossible to privatize. They represent the most-needy population. No for profit-company wants them.

We need single-payer.

The only way it works is if you keep Obamacare in operation, such that insurance companies can't turn away applications from the elderly. You disassemble Obamacare and you've got nothing, because there's no way the insurance companies will take guaranteed losses onto the books.

246 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 1:52:37pm

re: #243 recusancy

And your proposition for making it cheaper to treat a sick person is?

elect more republicans, of course!

247 Gus  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 1:52:51pm

re: #241 Dark_Falcon

From CNN Money:

The critical facts that no one mentioned in the debt debate

Hiking taxes on the rich has a long history of backfiring. Let's learn from history.

By Geoff Colvin, senior-editor-at-large

Again. It wouldn't be a tax hike per se since it was meant to be temporary. Tax rates are still the lowest they've been since WWII.

248 HappyWarrior  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 1:52:52pm

The problem for me is the dishonesty used by the Republicans and conservative pundits here. They have argued that bringing tax brackets back to what they were in the Clinton years would be disasterous for businesses. That's utter bs. For one, those very brackets were agreed on by a Republican majority Congress and secondly, the 1990's was an economically prosperous time for businesses. The GOP has too many elected officials in it who care more about Grover Norquist's ridiculous anti tax pledge than getting crap done. No one is in love with the idea of raising taxes but sometimes it's necessary just like some of the spending cuts were. You can't hope to accomplish much when one side has many members who will completely rule out one alternative. It's nonsense and I've seen it here on the state level where the more conservative e.g. taxes are evil, never raise them ever Republicans in the state house of delegates had disputes with the more moderate Republicans in the state senate who didn't get their panties bunched up over every tax increase.

249 makeitstop  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 1:52:58pm

re: #241 Dark_Falcon

From CNN Money:

The critical facts that no one mentioned in the debt debate

Hiking taxes on the rich has a long history of backfiring. Let's learn from history.

By Geoff Colvin, senior-editor-at-large

More apologia for the wealthy. Not buying it, sorry.

250 Obdicut  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 1:53:22pm

re: #241 Dark_Falcon

Why does that guy ignoring that taxing the rich did, in fact, work?

And why is he comparing the ability to re-register your residence state-to-state with the ability to shift nations? The bit about millionares nad New York is a lie, anyway.

[Link: blog.nj.com...]

The governor often cites a Boston College study that found $70 billion in wealth left New Jersey in the years after 2004, when Democrats hiked taxes on those earning more than $500,000. But that study looked at wealth, not income. It turns out the average income of this cohort was just $159,000. So the vast majority of those who left were not affected by the tax hike — they left for other reasons. The author of the study, Professor John Havens, said himself that his study had nothing to do with taxes.

Another finding: Those earning big bucks left New Jersey at about the same rate as those who did not earn big bucks.

It's been busted long ago, and yet he's parroting it now. What does that tell you about him?

251 engineer cat  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 1:53:23pm

re: #241 Dark_Falcon

From CNN Money:

The critical facts that no one mentioned in the debt debate

Hiking taxes on the rich has a long history of backfiring. Let's learn from history.

By Geoff Colvin, senior-editor-at-large

yes, we found this out after 1993 when the economy tanked and the budget deficit went through the roof. fortunately, bush lowered taxes radically in the early 2000s leading to the uparalled prosperity and balanced budgets we enjoy today

QED [x]

252 iossarian  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 1:53:55pm

re: #241 Dark_Falcon

Ummm. "Maryland raised taxes on millionaires and they left the state" isn't exactly an argument against the Federal gov't raising taxes on them.

They can fuck off to Somalia if 39% makes them cry. I rather think they'll stay, though.

253 Kragar  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 1:54:33pm

Mosque Arson Suspect To Cops: 'Christians Can Jihad Too'

254 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 1:54:59pm

At this point I'm logging off for a short time. I've got a very important phone call to make in a few minutes and need to be free of distractions at that time.

BBIAB

255 HappyWarrior  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 1:55:33pm

re: #252 iossarian

Ummm. "Maryland raised taxes on millionaires and they left the state" isn't exactly an argument against the Federal gov't raising taxes on them.

They can fuck off to Somalia if 39% makes them cry. I rather think they'll stay, though.

They're whiny children and I have no qualms whatsoever in saying that.

256 AK-47%  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 1:55:48pm

re: #253 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Mosque Arson Suspect To Cops: 'Christians Can Jihad Too'

Not a True Christian.
Not a True Chrsitian
I am already tired of the leftist media branding this fellow a Christian
Why are Christians subject to this sort of persecution?

/

257 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 1:55:57pm

re: #241 Dark_Falcon

Hmm...

So, taxing millionaires in Maryland made them flee Maryland. So taxing them more in the US in general will make them flee the US... How patriotic of them. (America, love it or leave it! Taken to the heart in the name of the $.)

And I guess a follow-up question is that if the rich (which needs defined) pay 45% of taxes, how does this correlate to how much of the property and wealth of the US is owned by them? 35% 45% 75%?

The latter starts to march into the land of lies, damned lies, and statistics.

258 HappyWarrior  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 1:55:57pm

re: #253 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Mosque Arson Suspect To Cops: 'Christians Can Jihad Too'

Lovely. It's fucking 2011 dipshits.

259 iossarian  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 1:56:22pm

re: #253 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Mosque Arson Suspect To Cops: 'Christians Can Jihad Too'

Suspect: Christians can Jihad too!

Lawyer: My client means this in a purely hypothetical sense, of course.

260 Obdicut  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 1:56:50pm

re: #253 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Mosque Arson Suspect To Cops: 'Christians Can Jihad Too'

It's increasingly odd to me how much the Christian whackjobs really admire the Muslim whackjobs.

261 recusancy  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 1:57:06pm

And for those who want to raise the eligibility age for Medicare.

Raising the Medicare eligibility age to 67 from 65 would cost states and private payers about twice as much as it would save the federal government, according to this graph from the Center on Budget and Policy Priorities’ Paul Van de Water. The change would net the federal government $5.7 billion in savings if enacted in 2014. But it would also increase health care costs for many other health care payers, to the tune of $11.4 billion.

262 Kragar  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 1:57:10pm

re: #258 HappyWarrior

Lovely. It's fucking 2011 dipshits.

What do you expect from the followers of a pre-dark ages middle eastern religion?
/

263 Targetpractice  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 1:57:18pm

re: #241 Dark_Falcon

From CNN Money:

The critical facts that no one mentioned in the debt debate

Hiking taxes on the rich has a long history of backfiring. Let's learn from history.

By Geoff Colvin, senior-editor-at-large

That article falls flat practically at the beginning:

Far more important is what neither side told us. Taxes are going up anyway, on millionaires, billionaires, and everybody else, because the Bush tax cuts expire at the end of next year. As a result, estimates the Congressional Budget Office, federal tax revenue over the next decade will be greater by $3.5 trillion (or about 10%) than it would under a continuation of current policy. The spending cuts in the debt deal would reduce federal spending by about 5% over the next decade. So it looks as if we'll all be pitching in plenty.

The GOP's pretty much made it clear they intend to fight tooth and nail to see those tax cuts continue. They've characterized a failure to extend them as a "tax increase," one that the rich "can't afford." So saying "Taxing are already going to increase" is a joke, one that S&P wasn't laughing at when they downgraded us.

264 iossarian  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 1:57:46pm

re: #262 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

What do you expect from the followers of a pre-dark ages middle eastern religion?
/

I see what you did there.

265 Kragar  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 1:58:18pm

re: #260 Obdicut

It's increasingly odd to me how much the Christian whackjobs really admire the Muslim whackjobs.

"I hate the son of a bitch, but you still have to respect his style."

266 Kronocide  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 2:01:17pm

New term from Joe Romm: Denier Industrial Complex.

I'm running with that, along with my newfound Bootstrappian meme.

267 Talking Point Detective  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 2:02:12pm

I don't think this is really all that sudden, Charles:

At a June 3 town hall meeting in Manchester, N.H., Romney was asked about climate change. He said: “I don’t speak for the scientific community, of course, but I believe the world’s getting warmer. I can’t prove that, but I believe based on what I read that the world is getting warmer. And number two, I believe that humans contribute to that. I don’t know how much our contribution is to that, because I know that there have been periods of greater heat and warmth in the past, but I believe we contribute to that.”

That's a little different from his recent statement, but not that much.

268 Gus  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 2:02:36pm

Some of what's happening...

@ProPublica ProPublica

FDIC: Commercial & industrial loans grew by $34 Bil, loans to small businesses fell by $2.5 Bil in 2nd Q [Link: t.co...]

So much for the small business owner. While the banks and other financial institutions set record profits. Record cash at hand.

269 Charleston Chew  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 2:02:41pm

re: #241 Dark_Falcon

From CNN Money:

The critical facts that no one mentioned in the debt debate

Hiking taxes on the rich has a long history of backfiring. Let's learn from history.

By Geoff Colvin, senior-editor-at-large

Strange title for an article that contains no history. Seriously, I read it twice just to make sure I wasn't missing something. There are no historical references in it. What a crock.

270 albusteve  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 2:03:50pm

how much money are we talking per year with a tax on the wealthy?....since an increase is not likely, then where else can the difference be made up?...does anyone have ideas anymore, or is zombie bitching the only thing worth posting?....the tax is but one small part of a much larger puzzle

271 Gus  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 2:04:01pm

More Lending, but Not to Small Businesses
By ROBB MANDELBAUM

The Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation reported a modest bit of good news from the banking world on Tuesday.

In the second quarter of the year, bank failures were down, troubled banks were fewer and bank profits were up. And the F.D.I.C. said that “loan portfolios grew for the first time in three years.” According to the agency’s release, the bulk of the lending growth came in commercial and industrial loans as well as loans between banks.

Ah, business lending, then, is back! Well, not so fast. Yes, top-line commercial lending is up, but a closer look shows one segment of loans that did not increase: those to small businesses. According to the F.D.I.C., while the nation’s total commercial and industrial loan portfolio grew by $34 billion, or almost 3 percent, total outstanding loans to small businesses actually fell by $2.5 billion, or 0.4 percent...

272 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 2:04:57pm

He's a Wall Street guy, that's for sure.

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

273 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 2:07:24pm

I'm back but don't be surprised if I suddenly stop posting. I'm handling something for my job and some key issues are getting resolved.

274 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 2:09:59pm

re: #266 BigPapa

New term from Joe Romm: Denier Industrial Complex.

I'm running with that, along with my newfound Bootstrappian meme.

Upper Bootstrapia sounds like a small pre-Confederation German state, or maybe a section of Michigan near the UP.

275 albusteve  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 2:10:32pm

anybody heard what BO has up his sleeve to reduce unemployment?...I heard that was one thrust of his next speech....another stimulus?

276 AK-47%  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 2:11:43pm

re: #260 Obdicut

It's increasingly odd to me how much the Christian whackjobs really admire the Muslim whackjobs.

Which reminds us again: the "Clash of Cultures" that defines our age is not between Christianity and Islam, it is between Englightenmient and Fundamentalism.

277 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 2:12:25pm

re: #268 Gus 802

Some of what's happening...

@ProPublica ProPublica

FDIC: Commercial & industrial loans grew by $34 Bil, loans to small businesses fell by $2.5 Bil in 2nd Q [Link: t.co...]

So much for the small business owner. While the banks and other financial institutions set record profits. Record cash at hand.

In an uncertain regulatory and fiscal climate, there is little incentive to take risks. Better to just pile up the cash and wait for safer times.

Here's a good good article from City Journal that talks about some of the problems. You'll find it doesn't make excuses for banks:

The Mortgage Hangover

A Bronx boom-and-bust story shows why the nation hasn’t yet recovered from the financial crisis.

By Nicole Gelinas

As the American economy limps through its second “recovery summer,” hobbled by trillions of dollars in bubble-era debt, politicians and regulators should take a long look at an unlikely place: Kingsbridge, a neighborhood in the northwest Bronx. In some ways, Kingsbridge’s credit-bubble experience was no different from the rest of the nation’s. As the bubble reached its greatest size in late 2006 and early 2007, the financial system—aided by dizzyingly intricate instruments and coddled by the government, which had long kept investors from facing the consequences of bad decisions—piled too much debt on Kingsbridge’s modest dwellings. As a result, the buildings’ owner abandoned them, leaving tenants to bear the brunt of somebody else’s mistakes.

Yet Kingsbridge has also become a startling exception to what’s happening in the rest of the country. A few people, acting within New York’s regulation-strangled rental real-estate market, have produced a solution that harnesses the power of the marketplace to correct mistakes. They’ve pulled this off even as most of the country languishes in government-bailout purgatory. Washington should heed the lesson of Kingsbridge. If it doesn’t, we’re likely to spend another half-decade haunted by the bad debt of the past.

This article has the history folks here were asking for.

278 Daniel Ballard  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 2:12:34pm

re: #248 HappyWarrior

I am a fiscal conservative by several rational measures, all of which fall short of Tea Party whims LOL.

I am not afraid of Reagan era taxation. My employer did well and I did well. I have no problem with that at all. I have said this before, but it worth repeating

What with 9/11, 2.331 wars, DHS, extra money for states in the recession, extended unemployment... OF COURSE we need to raise taxes. Duh.

Sorry about the caps.

279 Targetpractice  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 2:13:29pm

Well, good news and bad news time, folks.

Bad news is that, looking at NOAA's latest track, the eye of Irene will be passing virtually over top of us, barring further course corrections.

Good news is that, as it hugs the coast, it seems like it will be weakening. And going through the Outer Banks and NC borderlands should weaken it further.

All in all, I'd rather be in Philadelphia./

280 laZardo  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 2:14:25pm

re: #279 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

To my knowledge there have been only two rainy days in Seattle since I moved here. Right ow, it's pretty sunny out.

281 William Barnett-Lewis  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 2:14:38pm

re: #240 Obdicut


We need single-payer.

QFT.

282 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 2:15:07pm

re: #279 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

Well, good news and bad news time, folks.

Bad news is that, looking at NOAA's latest track, the eye of Irene will be passing virtually over top of us, barring further course corrections.

Good news is that, as it hugs the coast, it seems like it will be weakening. And going through the Outer Banks and NC borderlands should weaken it further.

All in all, I'd rather be in Philadelphia./

Well, you can check Travelocity and see if the gnome can find you a room up there. :)

283 makeitstop  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 2:15:27pm

re: #275 albusteve

anybody heard what BO has up his sleeve to reduce unemployment?...I heard that was one thrust of his next speech...another stimulus?

The Associated Press said the plan would likely include tax cuts, spending on infrastructure, and aid to people who have been unemployed for months.

link

284 Targetpractice  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 2:16:54pm

re: #280 laZardo

To my knowledge there have been only two rainy days in Seattle since I moved here. Right ow, it's pretty sunny out.

My old man's originally from Tacoma, and his sisters still live up there. And one of the regular jokes is how all the "damned tourists" come up, particularly from California, and wonder why everything's so dry up in Seattle.

285 albusteve  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 2:18:28pm

re: #283 makeitstop

link

guess we have to wait for the specifics

286 makeitstop  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 2:20:12pm

re: #285 albusteve

guess we have to wait for the specifics

Yeah. He's brought up the tax cuts (actually referred to as a 'tax holiday' for small businesses) before. TGOP already says they're against it. Big surprise there.

287 recusancy  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 2:20:53pm

re: #270 albusteve

how much money are we talking per year with a tax on the wealthy?...since an increase is not likely, then where else can the difference be made up?...does anyone have ideas anymore, or is zombie bitching the only thing worth posting?...the tax is but one small part of a much larger puzzle

Graph on page 4 Roughly 3.6 tillion in 10 years.

288 albusteve  Thu, Aug 25, 2011 2:24:56pm

re: #287 recusancy

Graph on page 4 Roughly 3.6 tillion in 10 years.

that's a fair piece of change, thanks....
time for BO to do a GB and break out the chalkboard...get the word out in easy to understand lingo...I seriously doubt the gen pop understands the situation....people are not as opposed to reasonable tax hikes as their rabid GOP officials claim, my guess

290 jimbouie  Fri, Aug 26, 2011 8:04:52am

Maybe Mitt read the recent CERN report.

291 wrenchwench  Fri, Aug 26, 2011 8:12:42am

re: #290 jimbouie

Maybe Mitt read the recent CERN report.

Linky?

292 jimbouie  Fri, Aug 26, 2011 8:54:37am

re: #291 wrenchwench

Oops, sorry... "The findings have significant implications for climate science as it suggests the sun plays a much bigger role in the creation of clouds than ever previously thought.

This is critical in climate change models and forecasts as water vapour and clouds play a large role in determining global temperatures. Tiny changes in overall cloud cover can result in relatively large temperature changes."

293 wrenchwench  Fri, Aug 26, 2011 9:42:00am

re: #292 jimbouie

Oops, sorry... "The findings have significant implications for climate science as it suggests the sun plays a much bigger role in the creation of clouds than ever previously thought.

This is critical in climate change models and forecasts as water vapour and clouds play a large role in determining global temperatures. Tiny changes in overall cloud cover can result in relatively large temperature changes."

Obviously, "ClickGreen staff", the "author" of that, knows what it is talking about. At least you didn't link "Watts Up With That?".

294 Interesting Times  Fri, Aug 26, 2011 10:05:40am

re: #293 wrenchwench

Obviously, "ClickGreen staff", the "author" of that, knows what it is talking about. At least you didn't link "Watts Up With That?".

Heh. Although the ClickGreen staff chose one hell of a stupid, misleading headline to go with the article. As always, one has to take a closer, deeper look to get to the real story:

ConCERN Trolling on Cosmic Rays, Clouds, and Climate Change

Depending on where you get your science news, you might be hearing claims to the effect that CLOUD at CERN has “proven that cosmic rays drive climate change”, or something to that effect. That’s certainly the impression that climate “skeptics” would like you to get. Unfortunately for “skeptics” (and if we don’t reign in greenhouse emissions, everyone else), it’s not true. While cosmic rays may have some influence on cloud formation, they are not responsible for the present, human-driven climatic change or alleged changes in the geologic past.
...
The short version is that Kirkby et al. do find increased aerosol nucleation under increased ionization (i.e. “more cosmic rays”), particularly in the mid-troposphere, but the effect is smaller at warmer, lower levels where the cosmic ray-climate myth proponents claim it has its greatest climatic effect. Lead author Jasper Kirkby has tried to set the record straight, stating (all following emphases mine):

[The paper] actually says nothing about a possible cosmic-ray effect on clouds and climate, but it’s a very important first step.

While their results provide some confirmation of the potential mechanism by which GCRs might induce cloud nucleation, they in no way demonstrate that GCRs do significantly promote cloud formation in the real world, let alone support the myth that GCRs drive significant climatic change.

295 funky chicken  Fri, Aug 26, 2011 11:03:18am

re: #50 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

If the GW people are wrong, we spend money and all we get is a cleaner environment, air, water, and a more efficient power system based on alternative energy.

If they're right, we all fucking die.

Tough decision.

Complete employment of blue collar American workers would be a real upside to a thorough modernization project too.

296 lostlakehiker  Fri, Aug 26, 2011 1:26:45pm

re: #86 Iwouldprefernotto

When JFK said "let's go to the moon" the technology didn't exist. We invented the tech and made billions from it. (and went to the moon).

OR, if your're a religious nut.

It wasn't raining when Noah built the ark.

Going to the moon required a couple dozen launches. Building a green power infrastructure will require many more big-ticket items.

We cannot hand stitch all the space suits for this one. So that's why I'm suggesting that before going to scale, we move up the learning curve some more.

Progress already is real, tangible, and far from played out. Now one can't move up the learning curve without getting hands dirty and making a bunch of wind towers and solar installations and so on. We should be spending billions on this. Do it big enough to encounter all the issues that will have to be addressed.

But the time is simply not yet ripe for laying the keel. We don't know enough about buoyancy, stability, etc. etc. God isn't going to give us the blueprint for this one, if you like the Noah metaphor.

The same sorts of issues must be faced in war. Do we go ahead and bomb Germany right now, never mind that we cannot give fighter escore to the bombers? Or do we hold off on the really major campaign until bigger bombers, and fighters with longer range, are available? The answer "both" is not an option. The aircrews will be dead by the time the fighters are available if missions are prosecuted without regard to losses earlier.

In the same way, the resources available for construction of this green infrastructure are physically limited. Installations built now, with technology that, going by the pace of technological improvements, will be obsolete within a decade, will consume resources that could have been spent far more effectively once that next tranche of learning had been digested.

What's more, the U.S. cannot go this alone. If the effort is to succeed, nations such as China must be in on the deal. Even if we could afford to just go ahead and build the stuff now, and damn the cost, they cannot. If it is to be done at all, it must be done with the better technology coming along in the labs. For that is the only technology that China can afford. Same for India.

The same amount of money will generate considerably greater CO2 savings if spent on better methods, as those become available, than it will now. If we want to scale anything right now, it should be the low hanging fruit: weatherizing homes, smart thermostats, smart lighting systems that go dark when nobody's using them, etc.

Even home lighting is on the verge of a revolution. LED lights draw less power than CF. Here, nevertheless, the time is ripe for converting to CF. Those things that can be done right now, should be. Those that cannot, not in any way that can be scaled, should not be. They should be done on a scale sufficient to test the concept and help the industry grow, reserving the final construction of tens of thousands of wind turbines, and hundreds of square miles of solar (thermal or photovoltaic, we don't even know which will turn out to be best) installations, for AFTER the next times-two improvement in cost [wind] or times 4 (solar). (More or less...if the time needed to get that improvement stretches out too far, we'll have to go with what we've got.)


In an earlier conversation, the view was advanced that the "Fair Tax" was regressive and unjust. I quite agreed, but the thing is, only in name does it differ from the "Value Added Tax" that Nancy Pelosi wanted on the table. The political leanings here are so far left that the exact same idea is treated with deference when it comes from the left, and withering scorn when it comes from the other side.

297 lostlakehiker  Fri, Aug 26, 2011 1:37:58pm

re: #257 oaktree

Hmm...

So, taxing millionaires in Maryland made them flee Maryland. So taxing them more in the US in general will make them flee the US... How patriotic of them. (America, love it or leave it! Taken to the heart in the name of the $.)

And I guess a follow-up question is that if the rich (which needs defined) pay 45% of taxes, how does this correlate to how much of the property and wealth of the US is owned by them? 35% 45% 75%?

The latter starts to march into the land of lies, damned lies, and statistics.

Wealth can be confiscated once. Then it's gone, and of course no one will any time in the near future bother with attempting to build a company. What would be the point?

Income is a recurring thing, and can be taxed one year and again the next. The correct question is, what share of the INCOME goes to the rich? This, too, needs to be defined, but the group that pays 45 percent of the taxes (my guess is that's somewhere between around five percent of the population) makes less than 45 percent of the income. My guess would be that if you took enough IRS 1040 returns, starting at the top and working down, to add up to 30% of the income, you'd find that those returns accounted for well over half the IRS individual income tax receipts.

298 Obdicut  Sat, Aug 27, 2011 5:34:55am

re: #297 lostlakehiker

Referring to taxes as 'confiscation' is a stupid move. One of the best ways that we have to address the problem of frozen capital and an increasing gap between rich and poor is the estate tax. That is, in fact, a tax on wealth. Even when the estate tax was much higher than now, and even in other countries where it is quite high, people bother to build companies.

299 MittDoesNotCompute  Sat, Aug 27, 2011 9:41:59pm

re: #194 Gus 802

Image: david-french-300x222.jpg

So that's what a real-life douchebag looks like...


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