Fox News Poll on Creationism and Prayer - Legitimizing Delusions in American Politics?

Are Americans really as delusional as Fox News portrays?
LGF • Views: 32,472

Has Fox News become my unwitting ally in trying to convince Erick Erickson that many Americans do indeed believe in a literal creationism as outlined in the Bible?

Today Fox News released part of a survey (of 911 Americans), the part dealing with religious implications (prayer, creationism):

Fox News Poll: Most Believe Prayer Heals, 45 Percent Believe in Creationism

Some 45 percent of voters accept the Biblical account of creation as the explanation for the origin of human life on Earth, while 21 percent say the theory of evolution as outlined by Darwin and other scientists is correct. Another 27 percent say both explanations are true.

Most of the Fox write-up isn’t done very well (no surprise), not really tackling the sticky issues of polling.

Here is the summarized polling data for the released section, which contains more details of both the prayer and creationism questions, with answers profiled by the declared status of the questioned.

Looking at the details of the polling results, among self declared as “Tea Party” only 11% accept science. “Republicans” don’t do much better, at 13%.

The Fox questions are ambiguous, intentionally so, I can only conclude. The three options given are:

The theory of evolution as outlined by Darwin and other scientists

The Biblical account of creation as told in the Bible

Are both true

The last one is the curve ball in classic obfuscationist fashion. The category is a catch all, probably intended for everyone from theistic evolutionists (i.e., Biologos folk) to the Old Earth Creationists (e.g., Hugh Ross, and probably Erick Erickson.) Yet it also functions as a “maybe” type of answer, without forcing people to choose the (perhaps shameful in the minds of the questioned) “I don’t know” (which was a possible answer on the poll.)

However, even accepting that, fully half of the “Tea Party” and “Republican” chose the “Bible” category, not the “both”!! That is, half of all the Tea Partying/GOP folk totally reject that science has any part in informing us of origins!

NCSE also has a brief summary about this poll: A new Fox News poll on evolution.

Personally, I wonder about the polling method. For example, the poll says that the under 35 y.o. crowd accepts the Bible-only story at 50% (!!), while the over 65 y.o. is only 43% in that category. This is contrary to every other polling result and counter-intuitive as well.

Overall, I suspect this poll is more of an attempt to legitimize the GOP candidates’ atavism as somehow being mainstream. The reason the partially released survey picked only two questions is that they relate to hot button issues for the Tea Partying atavists:

  1. prayer in schools and public places;
  2. use of the Bible in schools and public meetings.

After all, if the majority of Americans believe in prayer and the Bible, who are the activist liberal judges who are trying to ban prayer and the Bible? Eh?

As I alluded, the details of the creationism question lead me to wonder about the polling method. About the method, all we get from Fox is this:

The Fox News poll is based on landline and cell phone interviews with 911 randomly chosen registered voters nationwide and was conducted under the joint direction of Anderson Robbins Research (D) and Shaw & Company Research (R) from August 29 to August 31. For the total sample, it has a margin of sampling error of plus or minus 3 percentage points.

“Registered Voters” implies some sort of selection process, and since the youngest adults are less likely to vote than older adults, and since older people are more likely to be at home and willing to have the time to spend in answering a poll, I suspect that the polling results were skewed somewhat more towards the Fox viewing audience.

I expect more details about this poll, and more discussion about its results, will come about later as people start to wonder how 50% of the under 35 crowd could have picked “The Bible” under the origins question.

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110 comments
1 shutdown  Wed, Sep 7, 2011 1:19:39pm

This is a very thoughtful post. I would add that in line with their propensity to mix real facts with the "facts-lite" that are whispered by the voices in their heads, the FOX pundits take a proven medical fact and stir it in to the cocktail of crazy they are mixing. It has been shown that positive thinking and faith do have a role in health and recovery from illness. Since that is tangentially related to the frothy mixture of religion and science of creationism/ID, they throw it in to this poll for good measure.

2 Charles Johnson  Wed, Sep 7, 2011 1:53:01pm

I made a few small edits and included the embedded version of the poll results ... and I'm about to promote this to the front page. Good followup to the earlier post!

3 darthstar  Wed, Sep 7, 2011 2:00:34pm

If prayer worked, there'd be no Fox.

4 AK-47%  Wed, Sep 7, 2011 2:01:24pm

Now the Catholics see no conflict with Evolution and Biblical Creation because they have enough of an intellectual heritage to be able to distinguish between religious scriptures and science textbooks.

I get the feeling that a lot of the Creationist folks do not make any such distinction.

5 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Sep 7, 2011 2:01:49pm

Prayer can be part of the healing process for some. Prayer alone? Not for me.

6 Obdicut  Wed, Sep 7, 2011 2:02:15pm

I feel like the anti-science attitude of the GOP has ramped up amazingly in the past twenty years or so. It was bad under Reagan but kind of, well, folksy bad, where Reagan said a lot of dumb shit but a lot of the right wing wasn't on board with it. Then-- probably from the increasing power of the religious right-- the anti-intellectual and anti-science attitudes became stronger and stronger over time, until we're at the point we are now.

How does anyone in the GOP think the US will remain a great nation if we vilify and reject science? Can anyone name a country that's proceeded to do well after saying "Well, fuck science in the name of ideology?" The Soviet Union did that quite often, and it didn't really work out too well for them. Lysenkoism led to mass starvation.

It can happen here, too.

7 laZardo  Wed, Sep 7, 2011 2:03:04pm

Religion is...

...ah, you know the deal. q;

8 Obdicut  Wed, Sep 7, 2011 2:05:33pm

re: #7 laZardo

... best kept separated from politics and education?

9 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Sep 7, 2011 2:06:51pm

re: #7 laZardo

Religion is...

...ah, you know the deal. q;

Big Business.

10 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Sep 7, 2011 2:10:41pm

re: #7 laZardo

Religion is...

...ah, you know the deal. q;

Tax-Free Big Business.

fixed-it.

11 albusteve  Wed, Sep 7, 2011 2:11:03pm

I took my Bible and cut out the inside to conceal a weapon, like in the movies....I'm now fully armed with a pea shooter and a nice stash of spitwads...when they come to haul be off for re-ed I'll be ready for em

12 Killgore Trout  Wed, Sep 7, 2011 2:16:21pm

In Their Own Words: GOP Candidates And Science
Handy crosstabs for evolution and global warming.

13 Firstinla  Wed, Sep 7, 2011 2:16:57pm

Rather than as a poll, let's put these questions on the ballot next November and survey the entire country. Selecting the respondents for a poll is a sucky thing to do as you can always get the folks who will answer the questions as you want them to.

14 Obdicut  Wed, Sep 7, 2011 2:17:37pm

re: #13 Firstinla

Is there any particular reason you think this poll was done selectively?

15 Firstinla  Wed, Sep 7, 2011 2:18:58pm

re: #14 Obdicut

No.

16 albusteve  Wed, Sep 7, 2011 2:21:12pm

re: #14 Obdicut

Is there any particular reason you think this poll was done selectively?

there is no reason not to assume that phony polls are creeping into the poliscape...why not? there is no penalty for cheating, supposing it comes to that

17 Obdicut  Wed, Sep 7, 2011 2:22:10pm

re: #15 Firstinla

Then why are you talking about selecting respondents to a poll being a sucky thing to do, if you've got no reason to think it happened?

18 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Sep 7, 2011 2:24:25pm

re: #16 albusteve

there is no reason not to assume that phony polls are creeping into the poliscape...why not? there is no penalty for cheating, supposing it comes to that

I'm with steve on this one. I have a hard time with polls. I especially have a difficult time with polls not devised by professional pollsters. There is a lot of psychology and other science stuff that goes into asking questions correctly and interpreting the answers.

19 dragonfire1981  Wed, Sep 7, 2011 2:25:19pm

A few observations here:

- Interesting that they chose a sample of exactly 911 voters, were they trying to be subtly patriotic?

- The effect of prayer healing can be merely be of a psychological nature and not due to the actions of a deity in the sky. Put simply: Regardless of outcome, some people feel better when they pray about stuff.

- Evolution has become a decidedly hardcore Liberal position as far as the right wing is concerned (i.e. if you believe in Evolution you're a dirty liberal). In keeping with their ideas about the Founding fathers and constitution, the only true America should be one with God at the center.

Heck, I unfortunately caught a bit of Bill O'Reilly on Fox awhile back and he claimed that "more Americans are starting to wake up" , ie adopt far right, anti-Obama, Tea Party worldviews. The truth is much different, but since when does Fox give a shit about that?

20 Obdicut  Wed, Sep 7, 2011 2:25:45pm

re: #18 ggt

This poll was done by professional pollsters.

21 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Sep 7, 2011 2:26:14pm

re: #20 Obdicut

This poll was done by professional pollsters.

ah,

nevermind.

22 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Sep 7, 2011 2:28:08pm

re: #20 Obdicut

This poll was done by professional pollsters.

ok, but it was done by Fox News?

Can it really count?

;)

23 Decatur Deb  Wed, Sep 7, 2011 2:28:43pm

re: #16 albusteve

there is no reason not to assume that phony polls are creeping into the poliscape...why not? there is no penalty for cheating, supposing it comes to that

re: #18 ggt

I'm with steve on this one. I have a hard time with polls. I especially have a difficult time with polls not devised by professional pollsters. There is a lot of psychology and other science stuff that goes into asking questions correctly and interpreting the answers.

It's not even fraud in most cases. Making a valid poll or survey instrument is very, very, hard to do. After a year's course in it I could barely make a simple non-controversial test that would actually measure what it intended. Almost all polls that make it to the public eye must be seen as 'entertainment'.

24 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Wed, Sep 7, 2011 2:28:47pm

re: #20 Obdicut

This poll was done by professional pollsters.

I know that "Research2000 were professional and authoritative pollsters who apparently were cooking the books" is not an argument against any and all polling. But I can't help but rememeber about that case when fishy results come up.

25 Mentis Fugit  Wed, Sep 7, 2011 2:29:03pm

"Do you personally believe prayers can literally help someone heal from an injury or illness, or don’t you believe that?"

Why yes, I do.

I also believe in the healing capacity of the placebo effect, self hypnosis, and the sheer bloody-minded desire to outlive your worthless spawn so the little shits won't inherit a bean when you snuff it.

What a crappy, crappy poll.

26 Obdicut  Wed, Sep 7, 2011 2:29:30pm

re: #22 ggt

It was commissioned by them, and done by others. Allegro noted the weirdness of the questions above, but the weird questions actually show more clearly the absolute rejection of science by a large percentage of the respondents.

27 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Wed, Sep 7, 2011 2:29:34pm

re: #22 ggt

ok, but it was done by Fox News?

Can it really count?

;)

It wasn't done by Fox News.

28 Obdicut  Wed, Sep 7, 2011 2:29:44pm

re: #24 Sergey Romanov

What's fishy about these results?

29 albusteve  Wed, Sep 7, 2011 2:30:38pm

re: #22 ggt

ok, but it was done by Fox News?

Can it really count?

;)

only when the results are what you want to hear

30 BongCrodny  Wed, Sep 7, 2011 2:30:41pm

re: #11 albusteve

I took my Bible and cut out the inside to conceal a weapon, like in the movies...I'm now fully armed with a pea shooter and a nice stash of spitwads...when they come to haul be off for re-ed I'll be ready for em

If you're going to hollow out a Bible for said purposes, the weapon of choice should be the jawbone of an ass.

You can use mine when I'm done with it, but I'm not planning on going anywhere for 20 or 30 years. :-)

31 Achilles Tang  Wed, Sep 7, 2011 2:31:04pm

When you see 3% or 7% "don't know"; you know there is something wrong with a poll. At least 20% of the population never know anything.

32 Talking Point Detective  Wed, Sep 7, 2011 2:31:19pm

And don't forget, Perry's call for prayer for rain worked out so well.

Oh.

Wait.

Texas wildfires burn out of control, force Rick Perry to leave campaign trail

And, of course, let's not forget this

Perry's budget cuts worsen disastorous wildfires.

“Everything’s bigger in Texas” does not apply to the fire department. The toll of the 2011 Texas wildfires has accounted for at least two dead and 1,000 homes destroyed, a magnitude of which Governor Rick Perry told the AP was “pretty stunning.”

Only earlier this year, however, the presidential hopeful approved a cut that decreased fire department funding by 75 percent.

33 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Sep 7, 2011 2:31:20pm

re: #25 Mentis Fugit

"Do you personally believe prayers can literally help someone heal from an injury or illness, or don’t you believe that?"

Why yes, I do.

I also believe in the healing capacity of the placebo effect, self hypnosis, and the sheer bloody-minded desire to outlive your worthless spawn so the little shits won't inherit a bean when you snuff it.

What a crappy, crappy poll.

And when combined with mental (counselling, meds whatever) and physical health medicine results can be quite amazing. I would substitute meditation for prayer, but everyone has their preference.

A person's attitude as much more to do with positive outcomes in healing that many want to accept. Cause that would mean they would have to do more than take a pill . . . .

34 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Wed, Sep 7, 2011 2:31:22pm

re: #28 Obdicut

What's fishy about these results?

Freetoken pointed out the weirdness in the posting.

35 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Sep 7, 2011 2:32:07pm

re: #30 BongCrodny

If you're going to hollow out a Bible for said purposes, the weapon of choice should be the jawbone of an ass.

I thought spitballs made from Bible pages acted the same as holy water when used against evil.--no?

36 Decatur Deb  Wed, Sep 7, 2011 2:33:08pm

re: #35 ggt

I thought spitballs made from Bible pages acted the same as holy water when used against evil.--no?

Unless you inhale. Then it gets all Exorcist-y.

37 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Sep 7, 2011 2:33:33pm

re: #36 Decatur Deb

Unless you inhale. Then it gets all Exorcist-y.

ewwwww

38 Achilles Tang  Wed, Sep 7, 2011 2:34:08pm

What is this presidential debate forum with a 707 Airforce 1 hanging from the ceiling?

39 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Sep 7, 2011 2:34:32pm

So, should we poll Lizards on whether or not they think this was a valid poll?

40 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Sep 7, 2011 2:34:52pm

nothing funnier and more pathetic than Hot Air and Redstate commenters who are Young Earth Creationists, trying to puff up their intellectual bonafides to defend their delusions

41 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Sep 7, 2011 2:35:42pm

gotta go, been nice chatting wit' you-all,

Have a great evening!

42 albusteve  Wed, Sep 7, 2011 2:36:15pm

re: #40 WindUpBird

nothing funnier and more pathetic than Hot Air and Redstate commenters who are Young Earth Creationists, trying to puff up their intellectual bonafides to defend their delusions

holycred

43 Achilles Tang  Wed, Sep 7, 2011 2:37:33pm

re: #38 Naso Tang

What is this presidential debate forum with a 707 Airforce 1 hanging from the ceiling?

Reagan Public Library.

44 Obdicut  Wed, Sep 7, 2011 2:37:35pm

re: #34 Sergey Romanov

Freetoken pointed out the weirdness in the posting.

Oh, I see. This bit:

Personally, I wonder about the polling method. For example, the poll says that the under 35 y.o. crowd accepts the Bible-only story at 50% (!!), while the over 65 y.o. is only 43% in that category. This is contrary to every other polling result and counter-intuitive as well.

I think that's actually a factor of the 'registered to vote' side effect. I don't recall ever having seen a survey of this type broken down by age, and googling is difficult given that 'age' is highly related to creationism. So I don't know if the claim that this runs significantly differently from other polls is true.

45 Gus  Wed, Sep 7, 2011 2:38:08pm

Does Prayer Help Healing?
Yes: 80%
No: 14%

CBS Poll 2009

46 Kragar  Wed, Sep 7, 2011 2:38:18pm

re: #32 Talking Point Detective

And don't forget, Perry's call for prayer for rain worked out so well.

Oh.

Wait.

And, of course, let's not forget this

Lou Engle says Rick Perry has magical powers!

47 allegro  Wed, Sep 7, 2011 2:38:18pm

re: #40 WindUpBird

nothing funnier and more pathetic than Hot Air and Redstate commenters who are Young Earth Creationists, trying to puff up their intellectual bonafides to defend their delusions

A belief in YEC absolutely and without question negates any claims to intellectual bonafides regardless of what those might be.

48 allegro  Wed, Sep 7, 2011 2:39:42pm

How about a poll taking bets on whether Perry will actually show up for the debate this evening or say that he has to be in Texas puttin' out fahrs. (as if)

50 Achilles Tang  Wed, Sep 7, 2011 2:40:16pm

re: #45 Gus 802

Does Prayer Help Healing?
Yes: 80%
No: 14%

CBS Poll 2009

I wonder if the results would be different if they asked:

Does prayer heal?

51 Gus  Wed, Sep 7, 2011 2:40:24pm

By the looks of things I would say this Fox News is pretty damn close to previous polling.

52 allegro  Wed, Sep 7, 2011 2:41:25pm

re: #49 Gus 802

Poll: 83% say God answers prayers, 57% favor National Prayer Day

Guess none of those 83% ever prayed to win a lottery.

53 Achilles Tang  Wed, Sep 7, 2011 2:42:33pm

re: #49 Gus 802

Poll: 83% say God answers prayers

There must be more gays than realized in Texas.

54 Talking Point Detective  Wed, Sep 7, 2011 2:43:10pm

re: #33 ggt

And when combined with mental (counselling, meds whatever) and physical health medicine results can be quite amazing. I would substitute meditation for prayer, but everyone has their preference.

A person's attitude as much more to do with positive outcomes in healing that many want to accept. Cause that would mean they would have to do more than take a pill . . .

I think that generally the question is interpreted to mean that if I pray for someone else to be healed, will my prayer improve their healing.

There actually have been some studies about this. I have yet to see a study that holds up show any effect.

That would be different than the effects of mediation on improving one's health.

55 Achilles Tang  Wed, Sep 7, 2011 2:44:03pm

re: #48 allegro

How about a poll taking bets on whether Perry will actually show up for the debate this evening or say that he has to be in Texas puttin' out fahrs. (as if)

I hear he cut 75% of the funding for volunteer fire departments a couple of years ago. Talk about chickens coming home....

56 Gus  Wed, Sep 7, 2011 2:45:00pm

re: #52 allegro

Guess none of those 83% ever prayed to win a lottery.

Dear God. I know you know I'm an atheist but...

//

57 Talking Point Detective  Wed, Sep 7, 2011 2:45:35pm

re: #55 Naso Tang

I hear he cut 75% of the funding for volunteer fire departments a couple of years ago. Talk about chickens coming home...

[Link: rt.com...]

58 Mentis Fugit  Wed, Sep 7, 2011 2:47:15pm

re: #33 ggt

[...] I would substitute meditation for prayer, but everyone has their preference. [...]

Dammit, I meant to include meditation in my comment too.

59 Charles Johnson  Wed, Sep 7, 2011 2:47:57pm

I think it's fascinating that about 80% of Americans tell pollsters they believe prayer can literally, in the real world, help someone heal from an injury or illness.

This means a majority believe in a real-world effect which has never been actually observed or recorded or studied. And despite amazing amounts of empirical evidence to the contrary.

Magical thinking has a hold on this country.

60 allegro  Wed, Sep 7, 2011 2:49:14pm

re: #59 Charles

I think it's fascinating that about 80% of Americans tell pollsters they believe prayer can literally, in the real world, help someone heal from an injury or illness.

This means a majority believe in a real-world effect which has never been actually observed or recorded or studied. And despite amazing amounts of empirical evidence to the contrary.

Magical thinking has a hold on this country.

But the emergency rooms are still filled. Real sincere beliefs there.

61 Obdicut  Wed, Sep 7, 2011 2:50:58pm

re: #59 Charles

I always wonder why they think God doesn't answer some prayers, but answers others. Why would he answer a prayer to let one child live, but let another die?

I'm fine with the hopeful aspect of it. But at best, it's a blindness to the logic that if God really can answer prayers in a physical fashion, he bears a lot more responsibility for the suffering in the world than if he doesn't.

62 Kragar  Wed, Sep 7, 2011 2:51:05pm

re: #59 Charles

I think it's fascinating that about 80% of Americans tell pollsters they believe prayer can literally, in the real world, help someone heal from an injury or illness.

This means a majority believe in a real-world effect which has never been actually observed or recorded or studied. And despite amazing amounts of empirical evidence to the contrary.

Magical thinking has a hold on this country.

Science is hard. Believing in magical entities watching over you and making your wishes come true is easy.

63 Achilles Tang  Wed, Sep 7, 2011 2:51:27pm

re: #54 Talking Point Detective

I think that generally the question is interpreted to mean that if I pray for someone else to be healed, will my prayer improve their healing.

There was a highly touted study (experiment) just a few years ago that was supposed to have proved that this was so; but it was subsequently found flawed in all the usual amateur science senses. One of those being that those who died during the experiment were removed from the data; and if I recall I believe that those who were actually told they were being prayed for had slightly worse recovery rates than those who didn't know. I suppose the stress of anticipation, if they were believers, didn't help.

64 Kragar  Wed, Sep 7, 2011 2:51:54pm

re: #61 Obdicut

I always wonder why they think God doesn't answer some prayers, but answers others. Why would he answer a prayer to let one child live, but let another die?

I'm fine with the hopeful aspect of it. But at best, it's a blindness to the logic that if God really can answer prayers in a physical fashion, he bears a lot more responsibility for the suffering in the world than if he doesn't.

A single all powerful deity is a dick. PANTHEONS FOR EVERYONE!

65 Varek Raith  Wed, Sep 7, 2011 2:54:24pm

re: #62 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Science is hard. Believing in magical entities watching over you and making your wishes come true is easy.

The evil demon chick sitting on my shoulder agrees.

66 Talking Point Detective  Wed, Sep 7, 2011 2:54:27pm

re: #59 Charles

I think it's fascinating that about 80% of Americans tell pollsters they believe prayer can literally, in the real world, help someone heal from an injury or illness.

This means a majority believe in a real-world effect which has never been actually observed or recorded or studied. And despite amazing amounts of empirical evidence to the contrary.

Magical thinking has a hold on this country.

Actually - it has been studied, and as far as I know, surprise, surprise, praying for healing for someone distant from you hasn't proven to have any effects. I wouldn't be surprised if their might be a placebo-like effect from praying for healing for someone in the room with you, or perhaps someone who knows that you're praying for them, however.

Somewhat tangentially, there is this very interesting study, done by a very well-respected researcher, which had very interesting results.

[Link: www.kurzweilai.net...]

67 darthstar  Wed, Sep 7, 2011 2:54:36pm

re: #50 Naso Tang

I wonder if the results would be different if they asked:

Does prayer heal?

Mythbusters looked at this already:

68 Eclectic Infidel  Wed, Sep 7, 2011 2:55:04pm

re: #49 Gus 802

Poll: 83% say God answers prayers, 57% favor National Prayer Day

83% are delusional. Seriously, delusional.

69 darthstar  Wed, Sep 7, 2011 2:55:11pm

re: #64 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

A single all powerful deity is a my dick. PANTHEONS FOR EVERYONE!

QFT...and fixed.

70 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Sep 7, 2011 2:55:32pm

re: #47 allegro

A belief in YEC absolutely and without question negates any claims to intellectual bonafides regardless of what those might be.

well, my suspicion is a lot of YEC people on blogs are lying through their teeth about their education ;-)

71 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Sep 7, 2011 2:55:58pm

re: #65 Varek Raith

The evil demon chick sitting on my shoulder agrees.

I got one of those, hail satan

72 darthstar  Wed, Sep 7, 2011 2:56:42pm

re: #68 eclectic infidel

83% are delusional. Seriously, delusional.

99.9% of the time god says "no."

73 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Sep 7, 2011 2:56:50pm

re: #49 Gus 802

never underestimate the ego of people who think cosmic entities are really interested in their dumb lives

74 Achilles Tang  Wed, Sep 7, 2011 2:56:57pm

re: #62 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Believing in magical entities watching over you and making your wishes come true is easy.

99.99% of human existence has probably been so. If you start with ignorance it is actually the most logical conclusion to come to.

75 Talking Point Detective  Wed, Sep 7, 2011 2:57:06pm

re: #63 Naso Tang

and if I recall I believe that those who were actually told they were being prayed for had slightly worse recovery rates than those who didn't know. I suppose the stress of anticipation, if they were believers, didn't help.

Interesting - so my speculation about a possible placebo effect hasn't been borne out by research.

76 Varek Raith  Wed, Sep 7, 2011 2:57:07pm

re: #71 WindUpBird

I got one of those, hail satan

Haven't seen you post recently.
How goes it?

77 Kragar  Wed, Sep 7, 2011 2:57:09pm

re: #69 darthstar

QFT...and fixed.

Well played sir, well played.

78 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Sep 7, 2011 2:57:28pm

re: #72 darthstar

99.9% of the time god says "no."

Yes :)

"Ask just once..."

79 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Sep 7, 2011 2:57:38pm

re: #76 Varek Raith

Haven't seen you post recently.
How goes it?

BUSY *_*

80 Killgore Trout  Wed, Sep 7, 2011 2:58:19pm

re: #59 Charles

I think it's fascinating that about 80% of Americans tell pollsters they believe prayer can literally, in the real world, help someone heal from an injury or illness.

This means a majority believe in a real-world effect which has never been actually observed or recorded or studied. And despite amazing amounts of empirical evidence to the contrary.

Magical thinking has a hold on this country.

Well, I think there are different levels of belief. Although people tell pollsters 99% go to the doctor when they get sick instead of prayer at home. It's kind of like wingnut economics. These Tea Party folks are not investing in gold ingots and open pollinated seeds. They're investing in 401k's live everybody else. They don't really believe in their own ideology.

81 darthstar  Wed, Sep 7, 2011 2:59:12pm

re: #78 WindUpBird

Yes :)

[Video]"Ask just once..."

God does listen...to Slayer!

82 Varek Raith  Wed, Sep 7, 2011 3:01:17pm
83 Kragar  Wed, Sep 7, 2011 3:02:21pm

re: #81 darthstar

God does listen...to Slayer!

Praise the Gods of War...

84 HappyWarrior  Wed, Sep 7, 2011 3:03:03pm

re: #82 Varek Raith

Lol@Jim Hoft the Derp.

Ha, what a derp.

85 Kragar  Wed, Sep 7, 2011 3:03:52pm

re: #82 Varek Raith

Lol@Jim Hoft the Derp.

You don't get stupid like that over night. It takes years of practice.

86 darthstar  Wed, Sep 7, 2011 3:03:59pm

re: #82 Varek Raith

Lol@Jim Hoft the Derp.

Speaking of Derp...T-Paw just went up a notch in my book after this:

“[These races are] taking on more and more of a reality TV show component. You’ve got to have not just money, but you’ve got to have an entertainment component,” he said.

“I thought about shooting sparks out my butt,” Pawlenty said when questioned by Colbert as to what “entertainment component” the campaign could have brought, then admitted the phrase wouldn’t have been one he would have used while still a candidate.

Translation: I got out of the race because it's a bunch of circus freaks in there right now and I'd rather not be associated with them.

87 Achilles Tang  Wed, Sep 7, 2011 3:05:06pm

re: #75 Talking Point Detective

Interesting - so my speculation about a possible placebo effect hasn't been borne out by research.

I think it exists, but stupid experiments where you are told a bunch of unknown strangers all over the country are mumbling your name is probably not the way to go about it.

88 blueraven  Wed, Sep 7, 2011 3:06:32pm

re: #59 Charles

I think it's fascinating that about 80% of Americans tell pollsters they believe prayer can literally, in the real world, help someone heal from an injury or illness.

This means a majority believe in a real-world effect which has never been actually observed or recorded or studied. And despite amazing amounts of empirical evidence to the contrary.

Magical thinking has a hold on this country.

You know, I dont consider myself a very religious person. But whenever one of my children get really sick or injured, I find myself praying instinctively.

Maybe its just the way I grew up. I never have given it a lot of thought to be honest. Like I said, it is instinctual. Maybe brought on by a feeling of helplessness.

89 HappyWarrior  Wed, Sep 7, 2011 3:07:02pm

Dim Jim's is funny in light of the very anarchist looking poster that Beck's rally had. Seriously who does that dope think he's fooling?

90 Kragar  Wed, Sep 7, 2011 3:08:09pm

re: #89 HappyWarrior

Dim Jim's is funny in light of the very anarchist looking poster that Beck's rally had. Seriously who does that dope think he's fooling?

His readers.

91 Achilles Tang  Wed, Sep 7, 2011 3:11:15pm

re: #88 blueraven

You know, I dont consider myself a very religious person. But whenever one of my children get really sick or injured, I find myself praying instinctively.

Maybe its just the way I grew up. I never have given it a lot of thought to be honest. Like I said, it is instinctual. Maybe brought on by a feeling of helplessness.

I use the Lord's name in vain frequently without thinking of it and I haven't believed since I was at most 13.

It's like, saying Bless You to a sneeze, or Wassup? when you don't give shit or You Know What I Mean? when even you don't know what the hell you mean. (not that I personally say those).

92 Decatur Deb  Wed, Sep 7, 2011 3:11:19pm

re: #88 blueraven

You know, I dont consider myself a very religious person. But whenever one of my children get really sick or injured, I find myself praying instinctively.

Maybe its just the way I grew up. I never have given it a lot of thought to be honest. Like I said, it is instinctual. Maybe brought on by a feeling of helplessness.

No surprise. The impulse to religion has deep cultural and even physiological roots whether there is a god or not. Virtually all societies have produced and depended on religions and until recently virtually all people demonstrated religious behavior. We unbelievers are the outlier.

93 Eclectic Infidel  Wed, Sep 7, 2011 3:11:52pm

re: #72 darthstar

99.9% of the time god says "no."

And it's that .1% of pure coincidence and/or more delusional thinking that proves God's existence!!!!

94 Jaerik  Wed, Sep 7, 2011 3:15:31pm

I really wish more emphasis was given to the polls that show Americans are enormous liars when it comes to religion.

Every poll that has attempted to examine the social acceptance bias in questions about religion has shown Americans are overwhelmingly more prone to over-state their religious belief and participation than reality.

It really feels like both sides of the narrative are lost in a fantasy, here.

Policy and outrage are being fueled by a perceived allegiance to an ideology that, in most people's lives, really doesn't factor. It only factors once they're put on the spot, whether in a poll or in the voting box, and now need to stake out an artificial "with us or against us" ultimatum that is going to be overwhelmingly influenced by who's asking.

95 darthstar  Wed, Sep 7, 2011 3:18:53pm

Has everyone agreed that Rick Perry won the debate tonight yet? I thought he was awesome! You could feel the Jesus seeping out of his pores. All that love for the almighty...how could anyone think of voting for anyone else! Even Michele Bachmann was wet with appreciation for Rick Perry's divine mission.

/Fox-noise off.

96 sattv4u2  Wed, Sep 7, 2011 3:20:21pm

re: #95 darthstar

Has everyone agreed that Rick Perry won the debate tonight yet? I thought he was awesome! You could feel the Jesus seeping out of his pores. All that love for the almighty...how could anyone think of voting for anyone else! Even Michele Bachmann was wet with appreciation for Rick Perry's divine mission.

/Fox-noise off.

You could watch the Presidents address to congress instead!!

//

97 Decatur Deb  Wed, Sep 7, 2011 3:20:22pm

BBL for the debate drinking game.

98 HappyWarrior  Wed, Sep 7, 2011 3:21:20pm

re: #97 Decatur Deb

BBL for the debate drinking game.

You too huh. That's where I am headed post dinner.

99 Kragar  Wed, Sep 7, 2011 3:21:24pm

re: #95 darthstar

Has everyone agreed that Rick Perry won the debate tonight yet? I thought he was awesome! You could feel the Jesus seeping out of his pores. All that love for the almighty...how could anyone think of voting for anyone else! Even Michele Bachmann was wet with appreciation for Rick Perry's divine mission.

/Fox-noise off.

Jesus could show up at the debate and say "Don't vote for any of these people" and Fox News would turn around 5 minutes later and say the appearance of the Messiah shows that Rick Perry is meant to be the next President.

100 darthstar  Wed, Sep 7, 2011 3:21:53pm

re: #96 sattv4u2

You could watch the Presidents address to congress instead!!

//

I can only participate in one drinking game at a time. That will have to wait until tomorrow.

101 HappyWarrior  Wed, Sep 7, 2011 3:25:33pm

re: #99 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Jesus could show up at the debate and say "Don't vote for any of these people" and Fox News would turn around 5 minutes later and say the appearance of the Messiah shows that Rick Perry is meant to be the next President.

Nah, they'd attack a "bearded Marxist with sandals" for showing up. What, Jesus, you hated Atlas Shrugged, what are ya some kind of socialist Muslim?

102 Talking Point Detective  Wed, Sep 7, 2011 3:26:05pm

re: #87 Naso Tang

I think it exists, but stupid experiments where you are told a bunch of unknown strangers all over the country are mumbling your name is probably not the way to go about it.

Yeah - good point. So then, I'm back to thinking that there could well be a placebo effect if you know that someone you love is praying for your health, or you actually watch someone you love praying for your health - especially if you're someone who thinks that prayer heals. More than likely, if there was such an effect, the placebo-like benefit would be misinterpreted as the hand of god intervening.

It'd be interesting to see if that's been studied - I wouldn't be surprised to find out that it has been.

103 allegro  Wed, Sep 7, 2011 3:27:54pm

re: #102 Talking Point Detective

Yeah - good point. So then, I'm back to thinking that there could well be a placebo effect if you know that someone you love is praying for your health, or you actually watch someone you love praying for your health - especially if you're someone who thinks that prayer heals. More than likely, if there was such an effect, the placebo-like benefit would be misinterpreted as the hand of god intervening.

It'd be interesting to see if that's been studied - I wouldn't be surprised to find out that it has been.

Sugar pills have proven placebo effects when people think they're getting real medicine so there's no reason to think the prayer thing might not have the same effect. Probably reduced though because I don't think most people believe in it.

104 Gepetto  Wed, Sep 7, 2011 3:31:02pm

re: #6 Obdicut

agreed.

105 Jaerik  Wed, Sep 7, 2011 3:45:16pm

re: #103 allegro

Sugar pills have proven placebo effects when people think they're getting real medicine so there's no reason to think the prayer thing might not have the same effect. Probably reduced though because I don't think most people believe in it.

It sounds good as a theory, but there's no indication that prayer works as a placebo, and may actually have the reverse effect.

106 Etaoin Shrdlu  Wed, Sep 7, 2011 3:54:46pm

I see a win/win situation: how about the 77% who believe that prayer heals stop drawing on Medicare, Medicaid, etc.?

107 Achilles Tang  Wed, Sep 7, 2011 4:59:54pm

re: #102 Talking Point Detective

Yeah - good point. So then, I'm back to thinking that there could well be a placebo effect if you know that someone you love is praying for your health, or you actually watch someone you love praying for your health - especially if you're someone who thinks that prayer heals. More than likely, if there was such an effect, the placebo-like benefit would be misinterpreted as the hand of god intervening.

It'd be interesting to see if that's been studied - I wouldn't be surprised to find out that it has been.

The placebo effect is known to be real, but I'm not sure that the term is accurately used when one talks of comfort and support from people one knows.

When applied to pills, it may give a psychological assurance that helps with stress and the like, but I think any positive effect of having loved ones praying is due to the fact that they are there, more than what they are pleading with god for. The former is a deception. The latter is also a deception (from an atheist perspective), but that is not all there is to it.

108 Achilles Tang  Wed, Sep 7, 2011 5:02:16pm

re: #99 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Jesus could show up at the debate and say "Don't vote for any of these people" and Fox News would turn around 5 minutes later and say the appearance of the Messiah shows that Rick Perry is meant to be the next President.

Fox would edit out the "don't".

109 freetoken  Wed, Sep 7, 2011 6:54:40pm

re: #2 Charles

Good followup to the earlier post!

Thanks. It's like it was... foreordained...

110 RealityBasedSteve  Thu, Sep 8, 2011 7:48:40am

In regards to the numbers on the Evolution issue, the numbers for "Evolution as outlined by Darwin..." are actually a bit higher than the historical trend over time Gallup polls on Evolution 1982-2010. I agree that the "Both" is a bad answer, Gallup uses the language "Humans Evolved, but with God guiding". A poll in Science (2006) found that of 32 European countries and Japan, the only country with a lower acceptance of Evolution was Turkey. (25% for Turkey vs 40% for US). Their question was a bit different however, in that they asked "Human beings, as we know them, developed from earlier species of animals." with the choices being "True, False, and Not Sure".

Steve
Who really worries about where this country is going.


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