Growing up: Leaving behind naive glibertarianism

Ayn Rand is fun to read at 16 but embarrassing in its effects
Opinion • Views: 44,408

When I was sixteen, I read the works of Ayn Rand. Specifically, I read the Fountainhead and Atlas Shrugged, which I reread several times, and some selected edited portions of her ‘philosophical works’.

The books made a large impression on me. I was a highly intelligent young man frustrated in the educational system, where I felt like I was being robbed of an education by being forced to be in class with a bunch of people who were, intelligence aside, completely unmotivated to learn.

I was annoyed by my classmates who were given cars, nice clothing, etc. by their parents when I had to work, and work hard, for a modest amount of spending money. I didn’t mind that hard work, either— I liked it, and I despised my classmates who I felt lacked work ethics.

My relationship with my parents was rocky, mainly due to my dad’s uncontrolled rage issues and I often felt that I’d be better off without them.

“I felt that I deserved to be rewarded for my intelligence”So the writings of Ayn Rand really resonated with me; the idea of breaking the world into two groups, the ones who are actually contributing, and those who are parasites and leeches. I felt that I deserved to be rewarded for my intelligence, that I deserved to be free from the petty restrictions of my parents, and, most of all, that my classmates didn’t deserve the stuff that they were provided for by their parents.

I had a history teacher that year who was also a fan of Ayn Rand, and I got along famously with him. I read a lot of the more respectable glibertarian thinkers during that time, and became very competent with the standard arguments that you’ve probably seen repeated over and over in threads on LGF and elsewhere.

I was convinced that rational self-interest should be the guiding light of civilization, government, and society, and that pure capitalism was the best mechanism to make sure this happened.

To the many obvious cases where rational self-interest had not been followed— to the Exxon Valdez spill, fraud and embezzlement, etc, I handwaved those aside with the idea that it was because the system wasn’t pure enough, that if we just got rid of government involvement and depended on the self-regulation of the market, people would rely on themselves, educate themselves, and avoid purchasing from companies that, say, polluted, or didn’t hire black workers, or refused to serve gay people.

Then I went to college, and met a wide variety of people from a diverse set of backgrounds. I was exposed to some of the great thinkers being analyzed closely in my classes. The combination of these two things— actually meeting and understanding people of a different background, and learning the tools of critical analysis of texts— led to me quite quickly dropping, ashamed, my previous glibertarian Randian stance.

By talking with those who had grown up without a father around, I realized that as much as my dad’s anger issues sucked, I never had to doubt he cared about me, I never had to doubt his constant presence, and so I didn’t have to deal with the doubt and pain that the absence of a father causes a child.

By talking to those whose parents were uneducated, I realized how amazingly advantaged I was coming from a family where my parents both held PhDs, where their circle of friends included experts and world-class scholars, and where books filled our house.

By talking to those who had come from a poor, working-class, or untravelled middle-class background— or even a privileged, wealthy background— I realized how important and valuable it was that I’d met and socialized with people from all walks of life. From my devoutly working-class machinist grandfather, to the Fromm, Gund, and Renoir families, my contacts spanned the social atmosphere. I was at home in any social situation, able— if I took the effort— to get along with nearly anyone and find common ground and a way to put them at ease.

By rereading Atlas Shrugged with the critical skills that I’d learned in classes, I quickly was able to see the gaps, the assumptions, the unproved axioms, the contradictions, the failures of logic. Mostly, her bare assumption that competence and ethical virtue are twinned was completely without merit, and the rest of her argument, once that support had been removed, fell apart. A man could easily be a brilliant inventor, a capable businessman, and ruthlessly exploitative of his workers. Walt Disney certainly was. And such a man would, in a world without perfect information, outcompete a competitor who was ‘only’ brilliant and capable.

I quickly saw that in capitalism, whoever had the edge of exploitation, whoever found an advantage that was based not in something difficult— like actually making a superb product— but in something easy and repeatable— like advertising, or making a product with a ton of pollutants as by-products, or paying your workers as little as possible and forcing them to spend money in the town that you control— would win the capitalist game, and not just win it, but ruin it.

“Capitalism, in its pure form, rewards parasitism just as the natural world does”Capitalism, in its pure form, rewards parasitism just as the natural world does. Evolution does not judge its creations on how much worth they put into the world; capitalism is a similar system. A parasitic worm that feasts on its host is an excellent organism from an evolutionary standpoint, and thrives and propogates. A cigarette manufacturer, likewise, from a capitalist standpoint, is a great thing, with a product that’s always in demand. So they thrive.

I began to notice many companies are profitable because of parasitism, even if they provide a valuable product. Coal and energy companies, though they produce something real, do not pay for the effects of their use; they don’t pay for the pollution they create. Instead, we do, in asthma, cancer, and now, global warming, which threatens to end our current phase of civilization.

I saw how in a company I worked for, how a bad manager’s decisions had little negative effect on the company’s profitability but a huge negative effect on the workers; workers sacrificed their health, their personal lives, and their own chances at career advancement in order to keep their jobs; a net loss of efficiency to the system, and yet in the short-term the profitability of the unit went up, and so he was rewarded. By the time the department fell to pieces, that manager was gone— up to the Vice Presidential level, where he was able to continue making the same bad decisions.

In the end, I came to the obvious conclusion: pure capitalism could only possibly work if everyone acting within it had access to perfect information — if you could look up in half a second every relevant fact about a company, how it treated its workers, how it polluted, how it did quality control, etc. etc. — and if everyone in the world had the knowledge and master of all subjects necessary to make judgements based on that information. However, given the value of that information, in capitalism information itself becomes a commodity, and companies do their best to hide all relevant facts about themselves other than the ones they represent for PR purposes.

And in the end, I came to the conclusion that there was no way I could separate my natural talents (and why should I feel I deserved anything from my natural talents, anyway) from what I had gained through my upbringing. There was no way for me to judge the success or failure of others from afar, or to conclude that someone did not deserve my help.

“We humans are the only thing that can break away from the Darwinian cruelty of the world”In the end, I realized that we humans are the only thing that can break away from the Darwinian cruelty of the world; we can help each other, we can support each other, and we can all benefit from that. From either a selfish perspective, one of rational-self interest, or a human, empathetic, and sympathetic stance, it makes sense to provide for the destitute, to educate the ignorant, to help the sick, and to otherwise do what we can to catch those who fall through the cracks.

In the end I realized it is the best thing, too, from any perspective, to make sure that the known dangers of capitalism are safeguarded against, that we identify the practices that are exploitative, that are parasitic, that produce profit without producing wealth, and we regulate and manage companies in order to increase its efficiency by disallowing those exploits.

In the end, I realized that the power of corporations was one of the largest exploits in capitalism, that a corporation, as a legal entity, represented a power entirely different from an individual. A corporation does not fear imprisonment, shame, nor even death. A corporation does not need to live in a neighborhood, to socialize with others. Corporations have no natural checks on their behavior, and the short-term profits which the market demands of them result in not only parasitic, exploitative behavior but the legal and political machinations to defend those practices.

In the end, I realized that the only hope for humanity really was rational self-interest, but it lay not in using the crude selfishness of Randism as the barometer of that self-interest, but the true extended phenotype of sympathy; we’re all in this together, and what helps others helps me.

If you bothered to read this whole thing, thank you for your time and attention.

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163 comments
1 Achilles Tang  Sat, Sep 17, 2011 10:55:06am

E pluribus unum

2 Kronocide  Sat, Sep 17, 2011 10:58:32am

Epic.

3 Interesting Times  Sat, Sep 17, 2011 11:19:50am

Beautifully done. In terms of pure style, you have a talent for writing long things that don't feel long at all.

In terms of content, I can identify with a lot of what you wrote as I went through a somewhat similar phase after reading Rand (in my case, only The Fountainhead). What she (and other right-wing extremist thought) is very good at doing is stoking the flames of smug superiority, the "I deserve it, damnit" mentality and "I'd have it all if it weren't for the [fill in scapegoat of choice] holding me back!" And in true projectionist style, they'll accuse their ideological critics of harboring this sense of entitlement.

Perhaps this is why we see the modern marriage-made-in-hell between the Randian Right and the Religious Right. They both see themselves as the naturally superior "chosen ones", who'll get everything they feel entitled to by abusing, suppressing, and exploiting "the other".

Bonus cartoon: 24 types of libertarian

4 Obdicut  Sat, Sep 17, 2011 11:24:29am

re: #3 publicityStunted

I think you're quite right-- about the "I deserve it" mentality. Nobody ever reads Rand, decides she's right, and so decides to act less like a parasite themselves; they're always convinced they're being frustrated and held back by the current system, or that Randism justifies their actions because, hey, they're successful so they must be doing something right.

As a side note, I feel like if Rand had just written The Fountainhead, she'd actually be an interesting writer with interesting ideas. The characters in that book are not all megasupermen, the arch-capitalist is a fundamentally flawed and destructive person, the great architect spends a lot of the book unrecognized and dirt poor. That book, on its own, has something to it.

But in Atlas Shrugged, every goddamn productive person on the planet is psychologically and emotionally perfect-- or if they have any 'imperfection', it's of being nice and conciliatory, of not being perfectly selfish. It all turns into a gigantic cartoon at that point.

5 jaunte  Sat, Sep 17, 2011 11:25:06am
In the end, I realized that the power of corporations was one of the largest exploits in capitalism, that a corporation, as a legal entity, represented a power entirely different from an individual. A corporation does not fear imprisonment, shame, nor even death. A corporation does not need to live in a neighborhood, to socialize with others. Corporations have no natural checks on their behavior, and the short-term profits which the market demands of them result in not only parasitic, exploitative behavior but the legal and political machinations to defend those practices.

Great points about the negative effects on human life of unchecked corporate behavior, one of the great challenges for the global population to deal with in the future.

6 Olsonist  Sat, Sep 17, 2011 11:28:47am

Good stuff.

I particularly liked your line:

Pure capitalism could only possibly work if everyone acting within it had access to perfect information

I think that Capitalism and the Free Market are normative while Corporatism is what actually exists.

7 Meitantei  Sat, Sep 17, 2011 11:31:21am

I think the main thing that caused me to turn away from Libertarianism/Ron Paul ( I supported him in 2008) is when I really realized after meeting a bunch of them IRL that conspiracy theorist/whining about The MAN/racism really was a part of their thinking, and not just typical self-righteous fools behind a keyboard. It was something that seriously disturbed me, all the more so as it had a huge undertone that the entire system had to be overthrown - something which Alex Jones types always insinuate but never have the courage to outright say.

As far as I'm concerned, this country isn't perfect, but any ideology which does not outright condemn a violent solution to our current troubles is something which doesn't merit my support.

8 Obdicut  Sat, Sep 17, 2011 11:32:38am

re: #6 Olsonist

Yes, exactly. That's one of the basic assumptions that gets thrown around so much, especially by the likes of Ron Paul and others in the GOP. They pretend, for example, that people are capable of analyzing different health insurance programs in some rational and effective manner and making a decision between them. In reality, people make decisions based on what they can actually understand-- for health insurance, it's the copay/deductible/percent covered amounts, but people do not, for example, look up how likely it is that they'll be denied coverage when they need it most.

Furthermore, since nobody knows what's going to happen to them, the idea that they can actually make a decision about the deductible in a rational manner is flawed. If one could predict the kind of health one would be in, then one could make a rational purchase of health insurance.

But it's kind of the whole point that you can't predict with any accuracy your own health.

9 SlouchingPoet  Sat, Sep 17, 2011 11:37:59am

Great piece.

10 Iwouldprefernotto  Sat, Sep 17, 2011 11:39:11am

Thank you.

11 Obdicut  Sat, Sep 17, 2011 11:41:02am

re: #10 Iwouldprefernotto

You have the best Melville-inspired name, by the way. Have you seen the show "Archer?" There's a great Bartleby reference in that.

12 Ming  Sat, Sep 17, 2011 11:41:17am

Well said, Obdicut! Ayn Rand's novels are extraordinary; I've been inspired by them for 40 years now. I see her main motivator as hatred for the Soviet Union. I think this helps to explain her sometimes-bizzare professional and personal choices. She had a battle to fight, for capitalism and against communism, and very specifically against her native USSR. This meant a lot to her, and I admire how well she did.

This seems like a strange change of subject, but your post on Ayn Rand made me think of Obama's second book The Audacity of Hope. Like Rand's writings, The Audacity of Hope lays out a very comprehensive perspective on many areas of human life. Believe it or not, I think that Atlas Shrugged and The Audacity of Hope are "complementary": 2 very different, and 2 very ambitious books.

13 shutdown  Sat, Sep 17, 2011 11:42:36am

Very thoughtful piece, Obdi. As with all the best writing, it is clear that a good part of yourself went into it. What you are describing became apparent to me while watching one of the Pauls recently - the Libertarian of today sees a society as made up of a bunch of individuals staying out of each other's way; a civilization, on the other hand is as you describe:

...[a] true extended phenotype of sympathy; we’re all in this together, and what helps others helps me.

Thanks for taking the time to put your thoughts and experiences into writing.

14 Interesting Times  Sat, Sep 17, 2011 11:42:43am

re: #4 Obdicut

But in Atlas Shrugged, every goddamn productive person on the planet is psychologically and emotionally perfect-- or if they have any 'imperfection', it's of being nice and conciliatory, of not being perfectly selfish. It all turns into a gigantic cartoon at that point.

Speaking of cartoons, refresh my #3 - I added the classic "24 types of libertarian" :D

15 Obdicut  Sat, Sep 17, 2011 11:43:47am

re: #12 Ming

Yes, in a lot of ways she's just an inverse Marxist. A lot of her thinking contains the same absolutism and the same twinning of the economic and moral that Marxist-Lenninism did.

As for being inspired-- well, I think Atlas Shrugged is, in the end, an absolutely terrible book. As I said, the Fountainhead actually has some nuance, but Atlas Shrugged, once viewed critically, disintegrates into a hectoring, humorless, arrogant, murderous polemic.

16 Interesting Times  Sat, Sep 17, 2011 11:50:54am

re: #15 Obdicut

As for being inspired-- well, I think Atlas Shrugged is, in the end, an absolutely terrible book. As I said, the Fountainhead actually has some nuance, but Atlas Shrugged, once viewed critically, disintegrates into a hectoring, humorless, arrogant, murderous polemic.

17 shutdown  Sat, Sep 17, 2011 11:51:07am

re: #15 Obdicut

Yes, in a lot of ways she's just an inverse Marxist. A lot of her thinking contains the same absolutism and the same twinning of the economic and moral that Marxist-Lenninism did.

As for being inspired-- well, I think Atlas Shrugged is, in the end, an absolutely terrible book. As I said, the Fountainhead actually has some nuance, but Atlas Shrugged, once viewed critically, disintegrates into a hectoring, humorless, arrogant, murderous polemic.

I read both books as a European growing up with vaguely left-leaning tendencies (hey it was the 70s) and when I put them aside, I felt that they were quintessentially American in their outlook and view of the world. There was very little for me to take away from the books, as her social and economic philosophy were founded in a form of capitalism and anti-Marxism I could neither identify with, nor readily find in my own environment. My recollection is that I felt she had all the breathy wordiness of Joyce with none of the intellectual bite.

18 wrenchwench  Sat, Sep 17, 2011 11:52:23am

Nice.

I like the delineation of how one can arrive at a humane and moral world view without theology.

19 Obdicut  Sat, Sep 17, 2011 11:53:06am

re: #17 imp_62

Also, Atlas Shrugged contains zero humor, except unintentionally. Fountainhead has some actually funny moments, though rather few and far between.

I think you're probably right about how American they are. Hard for me to tell, of course, being, well, American.

20 Kronocide  Sat, Sep 17, 2011 11:54:31am

This is pure gold. I Liked this post on FB and one of my regular conservative FB Foils is having a conniption.

21 Obdicut  Sat, Sep 17, 2011 11:56:10am

re: #20 BigPapa

Follow it up with the cartoon publicitystunted put in above. That one is eerily accurate.

22 jmh83  Sat, Sep 17, 2011 11:57:37am

Very well said -- many thanks. Like BigPapa, I'm planning on posting this to FB and am looking forward to the predictable freak out.

23 Meitantei  Sat, Sep 17, 2011 11:57:37am

The thing about Atlas Shrugged..... is that people treat it like it's a story, but it's not a story. It's closer to Kapital than it is to some fictional novel, which was one reason why I was completely stunned anyone would even think of trying to make it into a movie. Really, the only thing I liked about that book was Francisco's speech about money - it's the only one of the rants in the book that genuinely liked and found worthwhile.

The Fountainhead is closer to a story, and I like it relatively more.

24 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Sep 17, 2011 11:57:59am

Rand is a worthy read, but too many people read her in search of something to believe instead of something to learn. Although, that comes with any ideology.

Her friendly-witness to HUAC, one of the planet's biggest taxpayer wastes of all time, tells me everything I need to know about blathertarianism/libberconnism in general and Randians/objectivists in particular.

These are overprivileged people (or those who are intent on overprivilege), who can't simply compete in a complex world. Despite all their loud, obnoxious, temper tantrums about government dependence, need b.s. like HUAC and Jim Crow to give them unearned privileges and advantages ahead of their peers.

25 Kronocide  Sat, Sep 17, 2011 12:01:05pm

In my defense, I didn't actually finish Atlas Shrugged.

Whether due to disinterest (hey, I was 17) or recognizing the fundamental flaws in that gospel, I'll not say.

26 [deleted]  Sat, Sep 17, 2011 12:01:08pm
27 PhillyPretzel  Sat, Sep 17, 2011 12:07:54pm

I never read Rand and at this point I don't think I ever will. Sun Tzu is far more interesting.

28 Obdicut  Sat, Sep 17, 2011 12:10:18pm

re: #25 BigPapa

I read the whole damn thing three times.

29 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sat, Sep 17, 2011 12:11:24pm

I never thought the version of the world Rand presented was feasible. I did like the idea of Rational Self-Interest. Too many in this world see "selfishness" as a sin, and use that concept to "martyr" themselves and live lives of high drama that only make them "parasites" to those around them.

I am, of course, speaking on personal level, not about society as a whole.

30 William Barnett-Lewis  Sat, Sep 17, 2011 12:12:48pm

As I said before, I simply laughed at it. I'd read Adam Smith by then who was her superior in every way, had started on "Capital" and was already committed to democratic socialism. She was just another authoritarian who deserves nothing but to be laughed at - "Riddikulus!"

31 Targetpractice  Sat, Sep 17, 2011 12:15:16pm

The closest I've ever been to Rand's philosophy was seeing one interpretation of the inevitable outcome, and that was playing the Bioshock games. Aka "Galt's Gulch Under The Sea."

32 Surabaya Stew  Sat, Sep 17, 2011 12:28:47pm

As an architect, native New Yorker, and as a student of history, I've quite enjoyed reading The Fountainhead for it's treatment of all 3 topics. Plus, it's paced is detailed and swiftly moving (a difficult combination to pull off), characters and background are very well researched, and Rand seemed to really enjoying writing the novel.

That being said, none of her other works interested me (coil by lady past page 12 of Aras Shrugged), her politics are immoral and hypocritical, and she started quite the cult of Objectivity, which haunts the american political class to this day.

All in all, I'm actually fine with Rand as a pioneer and as a thinker (one whom I largely disagree with); what disturbs me is that people can be so convinced that's hers is the ONLY possible way to run our government and personal lives. Lack of nuance and vision is the main failing of Rand and her followers.

PS- nice post, Obducut!

33 andres  Sat, Sep 17, 2011 12:32:09pm

Excellent post, Obdi. What else can be add?

One thing that also strikes me is that for pure capitalism to work requires all participants to be completely ethical and honest. Since it's inevitable that one bad apple (no, not that apple) will be among the participants, this bad apple will force everyone else to lower themselves to his level if they want to compete with 'em.

34 MittDoesNotCompute  Sat, Sep 17, 2011 12:33:55pm

Damn fine essay, Obdi...you laid it out pretty well, logically speaking.

35 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sat, Sep 17, 2011 12:35:22pm

re: #33 andres

Excellent post, Obdi. What else can be add?

One thing that also strikes me is that for pure capitalism to work requires all participants to be completely ethical and honest. Since it's inevitable that one bad apple (no, not that apple) will be among the participants, this bad apple will force everyone else to lower themselves to his level if they want to compete with 'em.

I think any "pure" ideology requires people to be something other than human.

36 Targetpractice  Sat, Sep 17, 2011 12:40:49pm

re: #35 ggt

I think any "pure" ideology requires people to be something other than human.

See also: Communism.

37 shecky  Sat, Sep 17, 2011 12:51:31pm

Good read. I can identify, as a libertarian-ish leaning guy. Like any ideology, I find it's only useful when it's practical and humane.

38 dr. luba  Sat, Sep 17, 2011 1:17:55pm

I had a friend lend me Rand's books back in high school I read them--I was omnivorous and non-selective back then--but found AS a too bit long. And I skipped John Galt's speech altogether....it quickly became tedious. He also got me reading Heinlein, some of which I enjoyed,

My friend dropped out of college (didn't have the patience for it) and, last I heard, was a crazy right winger. I retained my socialist (but anti-Soviet) leanings, and remain fairly liberal.

Rand's books reinforce feelings of smug superiority in the "under-appreciated," but don't much change the leanings of those with a true liberal bent.

Interestingly, my niece was assigned a book of Rand's ("We") as summer reading a few years ago. She hated the book, and, despite having a father who is a self-proclaimed libertarian and who likes Palin, is still on a path to save the world.

39 gummitch  Sat, Sep 17, 2011 1:37:46pm

Very well written essay, Obdicut. You do a great job of combining objective observation with your personal perspective.

Although I identified with the libertarian writers on the late 70s, early 80s, I never understood anyone's infatuation with Rand and her turgid fiction. I have a little better comprehension now, from the viewpoint of an intelligent and alienated adolescent.

40 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sat, Sep 17, 2011 1:42:11pm

Reminds me of this:

My only complaint with the text is the use of the term "capitalism". It inevitably leads to a boatload of false assumptions in its connative descriptions of the economy inherent in its usage.

41 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sat, Sep 17, 2011 1:50:03pm

Oh, and "emapthetic".

42 Romantic Heretic  Sat, Sep 17, 2011 2:21:25pm

That was a fantastic piece of work, Obdicut. Would that more people took the journey of self discovery you did.

Which brings me to one of my favorite bits of Babylon 5.

43 Romantic Heretic  Sat, Sep 17, 2011 2:28:45pm

re: #15 Obdicut

Yes, in a lot of ways she's just an inverse Marxist. A lot of her thinking contains the same absolutism and the same twinning of the economic and moral that Marxist-Lenninism did.

As for being inspired-- well, I think Atlas Shrugged is, in the end, an absolutely terrible book. As I said, the Fountainhead actually has some nuance, but Atlas Shrugged, once viewed critically, disintegrates into a hectoring, humorless, arrogant, murderous polemic.

My take is that Rand was the Marxist equivalent of a Satanist. She accepted the theology but inverted it so that good became evil and evil, good, in the same way Satanists accept the Christian theology but invert it.

She was also, in my opinion, a sexual submissive and that entered into her philosophy quite a bit as well. The idea that a woman isn't complete until she submits to a 'Great Man' runs through her work.

44 Syrius  Sat, Sep 17, 2011 2:31:50pm

Charles,
Thank you for brightening my day. I truly enjoy your thoughts and website. I look forward to more of your writings and thoughts.
Thank you again.

45 Dire Straits  Sat, Sep 17, 2011 2:51:11pm

Actually a realistic social libertarianism is not bad. My position is if it does not hurt the nation or me personally (think gay marriage) I don't care one way or the other.

46 renata39.5  Sat, Sep 17, 2011 3:13:06pm

Nicely written, Obdicut. Though I was never completely Libertarian, your transitioning realizations and thought processes well mirror my own as I began realizing that Conservatism (particularly in its current incarnation) did not represent what I felt were the best goals for society, what would be equally best for the individuals in society. I began realizing that while society was best served by seeking the best for all, Conservatism was becoming (perhaps always was) solely about seeking the best for Me. And that's great in the short-term if you're white and wealthy, but no so great for everyone else. Certainly it's bad for everyone in society over the long term (something the loudest voices on the Right either cannot see or choose not to see). Each of us is most secure and most prosperous when all of our society is secure and prosperous. It was refreshing to read your post. Thanks for taking the time to write it.

47 miclaine  Sat, Sep 17, 2011 3:53:46pm

nicely done.

48 John Carroll  Sat, Sep 17, 2011 3:57:20pm

Great post. It follows somewhat my own evolution in economic thinking, though I didn't come by way of Ayn Rand. I read more of the Austrian economic thinkers like Mises and Hayek, and though I never took as an extreme position as Rand, government was certainly the thing that sapped the vital energy of a market that, if left to its own devices, would (mostly) spontaneously organize.

Of course, were that the case, Somalia, with an absence of government, would be an economic paradise.

What libertarians and "objectivists" do is the functional equivalent of fixating on a car engine. A car engine is a wonderful and amazing thing, and without it, a car is not really a car. It is useless, however, if sitting on blocks in the garage.

Cars - like economies - need structure, and that structure is a fundamental part of Capitalism. People like Hernando de Soto focus on that structure, which was the insight that modified my view of capitalism.

I often ask libertarians whether it is important for every child born into a country to learn to read and write. I use that, because illiterate workers are generally not considered helpful in the creation of a vibrant knowledge economy or democracy.

If they are willing to concede that the state should be involved in making a more educated workforce (which doesn't necessitate a government education monopoly), then they are closer to understanding the important structural role of a government health care baseline.

People like Joseph Stieglitz have opened my eyes more to the information disequilibrium problem (which you noted in your post). That's a pretty important point. Capitalism works, according to Mises, because it relies on people with the best information - individuals - to make key choices. If those individuals DON'T have information, or if it is incorrect, than those choices don't yield positive outcomes however "free" individuals are to make the wrong choice.

Economics should always be judged based on whether it generates a useful outcome. I get the impression that a lot of libertarians (and tea partiers) fixate on attributes of a working system without understanding the structure within which they operate.

49 researchok  Sat, Sep 17, 2011 4:00:52pm

Good post.

I'm not sure I agree with all your conclusions (a bit of time t digest is in order) but you raise some interesting and pointed ideas.

50 Obdicut  Sat, Sep 17, 2011 4:20:20pm

re: #48 JohnCarroll

Economics should always be judged based on whether it generates a useful outcome. I get the impression that a lot of libertarians (and tea partiers) fixate on attributes of a working system without understanding the structure within which they operate.

Really good point you're making about structure versus result. Someone else above observed that reading Adam Smith innoculated them from glibertarianism; Smith's dictum that the markets are there to serve the people is a good thing to use to help convince intellectually honest 'libertarians' to re-examine their position.

The reason I'm saying 'glibertarian' or using scare quotes, by the way, is that there are some libertarians, like Bloodstar, a member here, who are honest, old-school libertarians who didn't go down a Randian path, but instead are simply highly concerned with individual liberty. These are, sadly, a astonishingly small proportion of those who call themselves 'libertarian' in the US today.

51 [deleted]  Sat, Sep 17, 2011 5:14:57pm
52 Obdicut  Sat, Sep 17, 2011 5:15:50pm

re: #51 alabamapurpleneck

How the hell do you see an overabundance of compassion at work in our inner cities?

53 [deleted]  Sat, Sep 17, 2011 5:18:57pm
54 Obdicut  Sat, Sep 17, 2011 5:28:21pm

re: #53 alabamapurpleneck

Welfare that penalized fathers for being at home. This tended to set the State up as a competitor with the father, and helped break up families.

What are you talking about? What welfare that penalized fathers for being at home?

Welfare rather than Free Enterprise Zones that encouraged companies to build businesses in the inner cities.

Ah geez. I'm sorry, man, but you're not making any sense. It's not a binary choice between the two. Both have been tried. Both have limited effects. The problem is gigantic.

We have not used an overabundance of compassion with regard to the inner city. The poor conditions of the schools there, the intentional ghettoization by real estate developers, the unfair sentences for crack vs. cocaine (along with the entire drug war), the much higher arrest rate for blacks for crimes committed with equal frequency by whites.

You seem rather intent on providing an example of the economic naivite I'm talking about. A free enterprise zone isn't going to cut the unemployment rate from 40% in the inner city, it's not going to magically solve the problems of teen pregnancy, lack of education, and lack of workplace skills. How do we know? because we can show places where 'free enterprise zones' have been tried, and while they may have a positive effect, it's nowhere near a cure.

And I have no fucking clue why you think the plight of the inner cities comes from welfare. Are you serious about that, or is there a reason you're overlooking the economic and social history of blacks in the US?

55 [deleted]  Sat, Sep 17, 2011 5:35:45pm
56 Obdicut  Sat, Sep 17, 2011 5:39:16pm

re: #55 alabamapurpleneck

clarification: my understanding is that single mothers received welfare, but that two parent families were disallowed. This is either currently the case, or was for some time.

I have no idea where you got this idea from. Can you explain?

as for over "abundance of compassion". Not my point.

Well, it was what you said. You said we were reckless in the extreme of our compassion, and it could be seen in the inner city. So you didn't actually mean that, or what?

But then look at England - universal health care, housing, education, food - all good things surely. But sure are a lot of angry, drifting people. Something surely has gone wrong with the Welfare State. Surely you agree it's not working as well as you'd like?

What in the holy hell are you talking about? Why are you talking about the UK? You're not making any damn sense.

I mean, let's leave aside that you're focusing on the UK and not, say, on the Scandinavian countries, which are all 'welfare states' and are all weathering the financial crisis far better than we are. Let's leave aside Norway and Denmark's greater social mobility than the US.

Why on earth did you somehow get from my post about realizing that unregulated, untrammeled capitalism is not going to work, that we don't start with anything like a level playing field, that my preferred alternative is a "Welfare state", whatever the fuck that is?

57 [deleted]  Sat, Sep 17, 2011 5:51:58pm
58 Obdicut  Sat, Sep 17, 2011 5:53:52pm

re: #57 alabamapurpleneck

"two parent families were disallowed" I think this is true. Can't cite specific source. Would be surprised if I'm flat wrong.

Then maybe you shouldn't cite it as fact, if you can't even remember where you heard it, eh?

True enough, a number of Scandinavian countries seem to have there act together. No accounting for those Swedes! Complicate everthing!

So, because the results don't agree with your thesis, you just say there's no accounting for them? Don't they rather show what you would call a "Welfare state" working just fine?

Welfare State: Obviously, don't know the ins and outs of your ideas. You're plenty intelligent, so you probably have wide range of ideas on how to tackle problems of poverty, social justice etc. But looking over the landscape of the last fifty years doesn't give me much confidence in the way Welfare has been handled in this country.

I don't understand why you're obsessed with welfare, or even what you mean by it. Is the GI bill welfare? Is single-payer healthcare welfare? Is free education welfare? What exactly is welfare?

59 [deleted]  Sat, Sep 17, 2011 6:02:24pm
60 Obdicut  Sat, Sep 17, 2011 6:06:32pm

re: #59 alabamapurpleneck

Swedes. Yeah. Seems they've got a fairly functional welfare state. Will it last? Mayhaps.

Not just the Swedes. The Danes, the Norwegians, and the Finns, as well. You can't hand-wave it away as an isolated incident.

Welfare State is where this thread seems to have drifted, so there I'm stuck answering your comments.

But you're not answering. I'd really appreciate if you did. For example:


I don't understand why you're obsessed with welfare, or even what you mean by it. Is the GI bill welfare? Is single-payer health insurance welfare? Is free education welfare? What exactly is welfare?

61 [deleted]  Sat, Sep 17, 2011 6:17:09pm
62 Obdicut  Sat, Sep 17, 2011 6:22:34pm

re: #61 alabamapurpleneck

Welfare is how the Govt helps people in need of help. A good thing. Which can also prove very harmful. I think the Govt of many western countries have been reckless and uncreative in how welfare has been applied. The more we encourage market friendly solutions to all the above, the better we all will be, up to a point.

Except that there are some things that don't accept a market solution, like health insurance, because there are naturally broken markets there. Nobody wants to insure the sickly. There is no capitalist solution.

I absolutely agree that, where a market friendly solution can be used, or can at least be a part of the solution, they should be.

However, when they can't, they can't, and no amount of will or ideology will change that. Health insurance will never be an unbroken market.

I do not think you've done much of anything to support your "excess compassion" thesis. Using the inner cities as an example of it was a really terrible choice, and I'm sorry I reacted so strongly but you appear to be ignoring the actual roots of black poverty, and instead claiming that what you see as a failed solution-- welfare-- is the actual cause.

63 Obdicut  Sat, Sep 17, 2011 6:24:01pm

re: #61 alabamapurpleneck

But thank you for being honest in that welfare can be described variously depending on who's pie it is; you're quite right about that. But when you yourself are using 'welfare' as one of your main thrusts, it'd behoove you to actually make it clear what you mean.

I also really don't know why you brought it up, because it seems so orthogonal to what I was writing about. I didn't say "glibertarianism fails, therefore, lots of welfare".

64 Locker  Sat, Sep 17, 2011 6:24:39pm

Good stuff man. We have overlap which I'm sure is apparent and two things which constantly fill my mind are:

1. Corporations are not people
2. Money is not speech

Your well thought out article reinforces my thinking in these areas. Thanks.

65 brownbagj  Sat, Sep 17, 2011 6:25:36pm

Obdicut, I don't get to come here very often but you are absolutely one of the commentators on this blog I look for.

Great piece. I find myself struggling with balance. How much do we tax, what do we tax and how do we disperse those tax dollars to everyone's benefit?

I feel some on the extremes, on both sides, are so stuck on ideology or being ideologically pure, that it is either hate and tax the rich at unbelievable rates and pure hatred of capitalism, or no taxes, no help for anyone corporations are people too libertarianism.

How do we get away from this polarization? What is the right balance? I believe that all should pay a part and that it behooves those who have succeeded to help those who have not for a few reasons:
1. We need to be civilized. Who wants to live in a country where some sip wine at every meal, and some have no meals at all?
2. Education - who wants to live in a country where many cannot read or write and therefore have no chance to succeed?
3. Healthcare - my wife and I pay out of pocket for my mother-in-law's medications. Why? Well, how can I or my wife be happy when someone in our family is suffering and cannot afford what they need? And by extension, aren't we all Americans - and therefore family?

There are many more reasons of course - but again, the main question to me is balance. What tax rates are truly fair and reasonable? How can we hold the government truly accountable for being wise stewards of our tax money?

Again, thank you for this piece.

66 Obdicut  Sat, Sep 17, 2011 6:30:20pm

re: #65 brownbagj

You're quite welcome. And I come at it from the other end-- what services are really good and necessary for the government to provide? How can we provide them as efficiently (read: cheaply) as possible?

Figuring those out will tell us the amount that we need to pay for via taxation, and then we can engage with the question of how to structure the taxation so as not to have adverse affects on the economy.

67 andres  Sat, Sep 17, 2011 6:31:32pm

re: #57 alabamapurpleneck

"two parent families were disallowed" I think this is true. Can't cite specific source. Would be surprised if I'm flat wrong.

Errr... False by second hand knowledge. I happen to have ... someone in the family who is both married and on welfare.

Where did you get the idea that two parent families were disallowed? Better yet, do not tell from where you pulled that one out. If my suspicions are correct, I've had enough of hearing of that place.

68 [deleted]  Sat, Sep 17, 2011 6:33:10pm
69 brownbagj  Sat, Sep 17, 2011 6:36:21pm

re: #66 Obdicut

This is a great way to approach it, my concern is that in this polarized atmosphere, that I do not see changing any time soon, how do cooler, calmer heads prevail to objectively look at the issue and come up with the answer.

Some programs should be cut so that more beneficial programs will prosper and some taxes should be raised where it makes sense to fund a more successful COUNTRY. We should look at taxes as investments and expect returns on those investments.

Another concern I have is that politicians will spend money on pet projects (both sides) so even if we come up with the appropriate programs and proper tax rates - will our politicians raise their performance levels and do what is right?

70 Obdicut  Sat, Sep 17, 2011 6:36:22pm

re: #68 alabamapurpleneck

Do liberals and democrats share no blame? Did a poorly applied welfare system that disparaged the benefits business could have contributed, and conservative policies could have implemented, not help contribute to this human disaster?

I don't know. You've done nothing, at all, to show that they have.

The inner cities are a mess because of black poverty, which stems from historic and current racism against blacks, combined with the war on drugs which incarcerates huge numbers of our citizens, and incarcerates blacks at much higher rates for crimes they don't commit at higher rates.

There used to be a time when inner cities, however crowded, however poor, were crime free and vibrant places or rich culture and strong families.

No there didn't. You don't really believe this, do you? Where was this magic land?

Broad based Insurance on various tiers that people can buy into and insurance companies can't drop you

So, massive government regulation?

71 Tiny Alien Kitties are Watching You  Sat, Sep 17, 2011 6:37:28pm

Sorry I just have to...

RON PAUL!

/

72 brownbagj  Sat, Sep 17, 2011 6:38:01pm

re: #71 ausador

I am sorry, was there a poll I missed?

/

73 andres  Sat, Sep 17, 2011 6:39:26pm

re: #68 alabamapurpleneck

You surely did not react strongly. Merely vigorously. And this is a good thing. Always good to challenge and be challenge!
Inner cities are so sadly broken. 98% single parent families (yep! - can't cite my source, but think correct)

Citation, citation, citation. Pulling numbers from thin air doesn't cut it: it's your job to convince me you're right, not the other way around.

And this point is where I stopped reading your post, alabama. Not because I disagree with your opinion, but because you are using baseless data to support your opinion, and you are basically asking me to waste my time to prove you wrong without any effort on your part of trying to prove yourself right.

74 [deleted]  Sat, Sep 17, 2011 6:41:07pm
75 Obdicut  Sat, Sep 17, 2011 6:41:40pm

re: #69 brownbagj

Absolutely on all counts. I still consider myself a fiscal 'conservative' because my main question about any program is 'Does it work?'. No matter how good the idealism of a program, if it doesn't work, then I don't support it, can't support it.

To alabamapurpleneck's point above, if it could be shown that welfare was actually putting a negative pressure on employment, I wouldn't support it. However, the opposite is the case; welfare makes it easier for people to get employed, mainly by making it less likely they'll be homeless, without phones, etc. etc. However, specific policies about eligibility in regards to welfare does mean that sometimes it's economically more beneficial to not take a job; that shouldn't be the case.

Or take corn ethanol; a supposedly good aim, green energy, but a terrible, horrendously stupid way to go about it. It was when Obama supported corn ethanol that I realized he either didn't really understand AGW or was not taking it as seriously as he really should.

I don't have any magical solution, except to do what I can in the communities that i'm in to push for sensible solutions.

76 Obdicut  Sat, Sep 17, 2011 6:42:42pm

re: #74 alabamapurpleneck

I would really love an answer some time about the magical inner city that was crime-free in the past.

77 brownbagj  Sat, Sep 17, 2011 6:47:38pm

re: #75 Obdicut

Spot on. Maybe we should run for office...

And I am a "fiscal conservative" in the same cloth as you I believe.

If a program works and drives toward a valid goal - I will support it. If it doesn't, I won't. Also, I agree with paying taxes as long as they are wisely invested. At least when I say "small government" this is what I mean - not anarchy or each man for himself. But actually right-sized, efficient, smart government.

We live in a country with shared resources, shared people and yes, while many may not agree with it on the conservative side, shared success.

I do believe taxes should be seen as investments and any supported program should be valued almost like a stock portfolio.

But regardless, we can only do what we can. Carry on the good fight brother!

Hopefully, I will be around again soon. Three small kids tend to take up lots of time, but I do love being a daddy - every second of it.

78 Ming  Sat, Sep 17, 2011 6:51:06pm

re: #15 Obdicut

Yes, in a lot of ways she's just an inverse Marxist. A lot of her thinking contains the same absolutism and the same twinning of the economic and moral that Marxist-Lenninism did.

As for being inspired-- well, I think Atlas Shrugged is, in the end, an absolutely terrible book. As I said, the Fountainhead actually has some nuance, but Atlas Shrugged, once viewed critically, disintegrates into a hectoring, humorless, arrogant, murderous polemic.

I agree. To me, We The Living and The Fountainhead are novels, written by a human being, and written with love. As you say, Atlas Shrugged is a hectoring polemic.

Still, when I think of Atlas Shrugged, I'm amazed by how different things were in 1957: the USSR, and communism in general, looked like a plausible future for the world. So I feel a lot of sympathy for that humongous, 8-point font polemic. I'm in awe of Alan Greenspan's book, The Age of Turbulence, where he explains how he and others visited the USSR in the 80's and 90's, to teach them the basics of free markets.

But yes, I agree, We The Living and The Fountainhead have something very precious, which Atlas Shrugged doesn't come close to.

79 studioTech  Sat, Sep 17, 2011 6:59:35pm

Fine post.

80 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Sep 17, 2011 7:04:12pm

I see corporations as essential to modernity and so I'm not in agreement with you over the extent of regulation needed. But your post was well reasoned and well structured. Well done.

81 Obdicut  Sat, Sep 17, 2011 7:06:01pm

re: #80 Dark_Falcon

I don't have a problem with the existence of corporations. I have a problem with them having the same rights as people do. They should not. They should have a different set of rights-- and responsibilities-- since they are vastly different entities.

82 [deleted]  Sat, Sep 17, 2011 7:09:08pm
83 Obdicut  Sat, Sep 17, 2011 7:14:18pm

re: #82 alabamapurpleneck

The inner cities were a whole lot safer before the drug wars escalated, yes.

I'm not sure why you think that's connected to welfare.

84 Sinistershade  Sat, Sep 17, 2011 7:37:23pm

A small bit of support for one of alabamapurpleneck's points. I recall it being a plot point in several urban drama TV shows and movies of the late '60s or early '70s that a single African-American mother had to hide her live-in boyfriend from the "welfare lady" lest she lose some or all of her benefits. Hardly an academically acceptable reference, I know, but it was at least commonly enough recognized to be used in mass-market productions. And of course that doesn't mean that current assistance programs have such characteristics.

I think we can all agree, though, that the bureaucracy of large government programs can have unintended consequences. That doesn't mean the programs aren't worthwhile.

Thank you for this essay, Obdicut.

85 Sinistershade  Sat, Sep 17, 2011 7:53:14pm

re: #84 Sinistershade

I think 1974's "Claudine," with Diahann Carroll and James Earl Jones, used this plot device, but I'm not willing to download and watch it just to confirm. :-)

86 grsmi  Sat, Sep 17, 2011 8:04:49pm

I've been a lurker for a few years. Created an account 5 months ago. First post here. This is a really nice entry Obdicut.

You had to step out of your physical environment to gain exposure to different view points. It would be nice to think that in today's age of the intertubes, it would be easier to search out that exposure. Yet people still tend to flock to their safe corners of the online world insulating themselves and validating their preconceived notions. Similarly, not everyone (most people?) has an awakening epiphany while away at school.

So I'll take this entry a little further. How do you get people to think critically? How do you get people to understand statistics? A person's core beliefs should be rooted on a strong, well thought out basis. How do you get someone to change their mind when they refuse to acknowledge actually facts? Because that is what is going on in today's political environment. There has always been obfuscation for political and partisan gain. The problem now is that large swaths of the electorate is willfully ignorant because it "feels" right.

87 SidewaysQuark  Sat, Sep 17, 2011 8:05:02pm

re: #4 Obdicut

I think you're quite right-- about the "I deserve it" mentality. Nobody ever reads Rand, decides she's right, and so decides to act less like a parasite themselves; they're always convinced they're being frustrated and held back by the current system, or that Randism justifies their actions because, hey, they're successful so they must be doing something right.

Well, in real life, no one figures that THEY are one of the "parasites".

Randism (like most alluring deceptions) presents itself as an I-win-no-matter-what philosophy. If you're successful and reading, it's because you're one of the "producing" class; if you're a failure and reading, it's because the "system" won't allow you to succeed. Good snake oil.

If someone started a real-life "Galt's Gulch", it wouldn't exactly be the most talented minds of society who showed up for the party; it would be a lot of mediocre egomaniacs with delusions of grandeur great at making excuses for why their latest "project" went wrong.

88 SidewaysQuark  Sat, Sep 17, 2011 8:06:04pm

re: #86 grsmi

How do you get people to think critically? How do you get people to understand statistics?

Well, personally, I think you wrongly assume that everyone is capable of doing these things.

89 BongCrodny  Sat, Sep 17, 2011 8:06:05pm

Very interesting discussion.

I won't pretend to know the ins and outs of welfare and its rules, but I like "looking stuff up" that either support or contradict my beliefs about various issues or that hopefully advance the discussion.

Out of curiosity (and maybe to further the discussion), I did a Google search for "two parent families disqualified from welfare."

The first result took me to Wiki's page on the Personal Responsibility and Work Opportunity Act of 1996, which offers this:

AFDC caseloads increased dramatically from the 1930s to the 1960s as restrictions on the availability of cash support to poor families (especially single-parent, female-headed households) were reduced.[3] Under the Social Security Act of 1935, federal funds only covered part of relief costs, providing an incentive for localities to make welfare difficult to obtain.[3] More permissive Northern laws were tested during the Great Migration between 1940 and 1970 in which millions of people migrated from the agricultural South to the more industrial North.[3] Additionally, all able-bodied adults without children as well as two-parent families were originally disqualified from obtaining AFDC funds. Court rulings during the Civil Rights Movement struck down many of these regulations, creating new categories of people eligible for relief. Community organizations, such as the National Welfare Rights Organization, also distributed informational packets informing citizens of their ability to receive government assistance.[3] Between 1936 and 1969, the number of families receiving support increased from 162,000 to 1,875,000.[4] After 1970, however, federal funding for the program lagged behind inflation. Between 1970 and 1994, typical benefits for a family of three fell 47% after adjusting for inflation.[5]

Other features of PRWORA included requiring recipients to work after two years of receiving benefits, a lifetime limit of five years on benefits paid by federal funds, and a reduction of funds available for unmarried parents under 18. (As such parents are likely to be the ones in greatest need of benefits, this seems startlingly callous.)

PRWORA passed in 1996 and was signed by President Clinton. 226 Republicans voted for the bill and 4 were opposed; Democrats were opposed by a margin of 30-165.

Taking into account the recent news stories that the poverty rate in 2010 increased to 15.1%, the highest level in 27 years, it doesn't appear that the bill's long-term goal -- "to end poverty as we know it" -- worked very well.

90 [deleted]  Sat, Sep 17, 2011 8:07:20pm
91 grsmi  Sat, Sep 17, 2011 8:09:09pm

re: #88 SidewaysQuark

Well, personally, I think you wrongly assume that everyone is capable of doing these things.

No, but everyone gets to vote.

92 SidewaysQuark  Sat, Sep 17, 2011 8:13:26pm

re: #91 grsmi

No, but everyone gets to vote.

Yes, and rightly so. But I think, when it comes to a large proportion of people, encouraging them to respect legitimate sources of information as opposed to flimflam is the best hope, because some will never be able to think critically.

93 wheat-dogg  Sat, Sep 17, 2011 11:10:50pm

Great job, Obdicut! I've spoken to others who have recovered from teenaged Randianism, and their stories parallel yours. It seems once someone reaches a certain emotional and intellectual maturity, they can see the holes in Rand's objectivist philosophy. In the real world, most of what she assumes would happen, just wouldn't. People, even so-called enlightened genius industrialists, are imperfect.

Plato wrote The Republic, but then he wrote other works that were much more practical in approach. Rand never got to the practical side of her philosophy.

My reaction to so-called libertarians like Rand Paul is that they are likewise clueless about the "real world." Paul seems never to have had the same eye-opening experiences in college as you had. Maybe too much Aqua Buddha shenanigans distracted him. I assume his childhood was fairly privileged and sheltered, and his adulthood no better.

Anyway, I enjoyed reading your essay. Well done!

94 Obdicut  Sun, Sep 18, 2011 3:27:55am

re: #90 alabamapurpleneck

Please don't use the Heritage foundation as a source. They're an evil bunch of shills for the tobacco and big oil industry.

In this case, for example, for some reason they focus on welfare as a causative agent for lack of marriage in the black community, though they do nothing to support it. They ignore the drug wars, and they ignore that the general rate for unmarried children rose steeply.

It appears that at some point in time, there were welfare rules that made marriage a penalty. These were struck down during the civil rights act-- making me think, by the way, that these rules were defended by 'conservatives' rather than opposed by them.

95 Obdicut  Sun, Sep 18, 2011 3:36:47am

re: #94 Obdicut

Whoops, Heritage, not Heartland. Heritage, while they are still shills for oil and tobacco, are mostly a social/fiscal conservative think tank that put out massively skewed 'reports'.

For example, they're the assholes pushing the "The poor aren't really poor because they have air conditioning" meme, which is one of the cruelest arguments I've run across in a long time.

96 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sun, Sep 18, 2011 3:39:46am

re: #48 JohnCarroll

Hernando de Soto

Awesome man. I would argue, though, that the property basis de Soto argues for is the engine of an economy.

97 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sun, Sep 18, 2011 4:02:14am

re: #78 Ming

I'm in awe of Alan Greenspan's book, The Age of Turbulence, where he explains how he and others visited the USSR in the 80's and 90's, to teach them the basics of free markets.

One of the worst thing that happened to the transitional economies of the former Eastern Bloc is that they took seriously the assumption that the knowledge the West's economists provided them with contained accurate explanations (accurate enough as to provide grounds for replication) of the successes of the West's economies. Total overvaluation of the importance of a specific field of academia (in a specific historical state of ideas, too).

98 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sun, Sep 18, 2011 4:26:20am

re: #66 Obdicut

You're quite welcome. And I come at it from the other end-- what services are really good and necessary for the government to provide? How can we provide them as efficiently (read: cheaply) as possible?

Figuring those out will tell us the amount that we need to pay for via taxation, and then we can engage with the question of how to structure the taxation so as not to have adverse affects on the economy.

I have yet another way to go at it: Government is inevitable. Somalia has been mentioned as an example of an absence of government. But that is not technically true: There is no central government for the whole land, true. But there are several governing bodies controlling different sections of the land and these are mostly engaged in a constant state of strife and war with each other, dysfunctionally producing vast ammounts of human misery.

How are disputes between people supposed to be settled? By law? Who crafts, passes and enforces the law, and how? Power vacuums are often quickly filled by arbitrary players coming along. If democratically elected, representative institutions break down, simpler and more brutish forces will emerge. And they will likely be also be of a more "private" nature.

Whoever holds the ultimate power of force over a domain governs it. That sentence is true regardless of whether that power is an army, a militia, a private corporation conglomerate, or a theocratic court. This is a rather obvious transcendental political truth a lot of "libertarians" seem to forget or ignore, especially those coming from a common law background that has a lot to do with a tradition of self-governance and the emergence of legal traditions bottom-up rather than top-down.

99 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sun, Sep 18, 2011 4:29:20am

re: #98 000G

PS: Of course, a strong central government alone is not the best answer, either. If that was true, China would be the way to go.

100 Obdicut  Sun, Sep 18, 2011 4:33:47am

re: #98 000G

Yes, that's a very good point. The vacuum for the power exists, and if not filled by government, it will still be filled. That's simply the landscape of human society. Very good point.

101 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sun, Sep 18, 2011 4:42:04am

re: #100 Obdicut

The vacuum for the power exists, and if not filled by government, it will still be filled.

More precisely: Whatever fills it is government, even if it does not take on that name or title (which might be desirable for that power, because an entity recognized as government has to fear being petitioned with a lot of things it may not want to do, so obfuscation by installing puppet institutions sometimes is a preferred method). Think United Fruit Company, for instance.

I stumbled over this accidentally when reflecting over Rummel's definition of democide, which is – all the other glibertarian nuttiness and partially poor research of the man aside – brilliant. For one thing, it contains this rather lucid definition of government:

(a) "government" includes de facto governance, as by the Communist Party of the People's Republic of China; or by a rebel or warlord army over a region and population it has conquered, as by the brief rule of Moslem Turks (East Turkistan Republic) over part of Sinkiang Province (1944-1946);
(b) "actions by governments" comprise official or authoritative actions by government officials, including the police, military, or secret service; or such non-governmental actions (e.g., by brigands, press-gangs, or secret societies) receiving government approval, aid, or acceptance;

102 BongCrodny  Sun, Sep 18, 2011 7:38:13am

re: #89 BongCrodny


Mistake in my #89:

The quote at the end should read "to end welfare as we know it", not "to end poverty as we know it."

Big difference.

103 Boondocksaint  Sun, Sep 18, 2011 10:38:22am

Three things:

1. Great article. Really well written.
2. Your twitter link is not working (for me anyway)
3. Would you be as so kind to tell me how you added those blogs of large text? I just started a wordpress site and I would like to know how that is done. Do you use a plug in or something?

Please reply to this post, as I will be emailed.

Thank you again. I look forward to reading more of your essays.

104 The Ghost of a Flea  Sun, Sep 18, 2011 12:22:40pm

Bravo Obdicut.

105 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sun, Sep 18, 2011 12:43:05pm

re: #103 Boondocksaint

Would you be as so kind to tell me how you added those blogs of large text? I just started a wordpress site and I would like to know how that is done. Do you use a plug in or something?

See [Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...] and [Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

106 Charles Johnson  Sun, Sep 18, 2011 1:08:32pm

Also see these two comments for more details on "pull quotes:"

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

107 Steroid  Sun, Sep 18, 2011 2:12:09pm

I disagree with the post. I think that Randian, libertarian capitalism is a good thing, the best political system, although I can find many flaws with Rand as a person and objectivism as a philosophy. Specifically, unlike Rand, I don't think that libertarianism will produce all prosperity with no misery. I think merely that it produces the most prosperity when compared to other systems. More importantly it produces the prosperity that people want and are willing to work for, which is more difficult and more valuable than the prosperity that they have to be dragged to. When putting a system into play, it is not enough to be right; you must be intuitive as well.

"her bare assumption that competence and ethical virtue are twinned was completely without merit" Not completely. To Rand, competence *is* an ethical virtue. To me, ethics and competence are orthogonal, but why should ethics get an automatic trump over economic competence? An economic genius who acts unethically should be corrected only in the ethical sphere, while allowing his economic prowess to proceed unrestrained.

The problem with mandating a collectivist, help-each-other view is that it doesn't help those who don't subscribe to it, whether objectivists or non-objectivist libertarians like me. I don't want to help others to my own detriment; my first lookout is for my own well-being. And lack of perfect information is not the same as lack of any information, particularly in non-economic spheres. Saying that the most selfish position is to be unselfish is absurd on its face, and if nothing else I could declare that my unselfishness would come at a price, thus getting more for me. But in the philosophical sphere, no price is enough to make me give up my me-first thinking, since that would render me open to anyone wishing to exploit me, far worse that would mere capitalism.

108 Decatur Deb  Sun, Sep 18, 2011 2:16:59pm

re: #107 Steroid

At the bottom of your social contract is the 'Opt Out" block. Check it and we'll let the EMTs know to leave you lying by the roadside.

109 Steroid  Sun, Sep 18, 2011 2:26:10pm

Decatur Deb:

Please tell them that after they find that checked box, they can also find my private insurance card in my wallet. . . which if nothing else puts me ahead of Rand in the not-accepting-government-assistance department.

110 Decatur Deb  Sun, Sep 18, 2011 2:27:30pm

re: #109 Steroid

Decatur Deb:

Please tell them that after they find that checked box, they can also find my private insurance card in my wallet. . . which if nothing else puts me ahead of Rand in the not-accepting-government-assistance department.

They won't find that insurance card when you're my age.

111 skullkrusher  Sun, Sep 18, 2011 2:55:40pm

out on a limb, as always, Obdicut. What's next? You gonna pillory Scientology?

112 Prononymous, rogue demon hunter  Sun, Sep 18, 2011 3:12:21pm

Great perspective Obdicut. I went through a similar evolution, though from full on anarchist to, well, whatever I am now. I'd probably be classified as very liberal, but I don't really feel simple labels accurately represent my full spectrum of views.

My only (minor) objection would be this phrase:

We humans are the only thing that can break away from the Darwinian cruelty of the world

I don't think that's really a fair representation of Darwinian theory. It's more akin to how social darwinians view the world. While predation and parasitism can be seen as cruel, it's only an aspect of the natural world, not the entirety of it. Commensalism, mutualism, and symbiosis are just as important in Darwinian theory. And why not, organisms working together (from the same species or otherwise) can accomplish more than they could independently and increase the chances of passing on their genes. Cooperation is one of the dominant lifestyles on the planet. I could make list upon list of organisms working together from the symbiosis of fungi and plants, the relationship between ants and aphids, the living arrangement between pistol shrimp and gobies, to the symbiosis of microbes in your gut and you. Yet I'd only be able to include a tiny fraction of the number of organisms on this planet that depend on each other. All life on this planet is so completely intertwined that I feel a little saddened when people view the process that created all this in a negative light. I blame social darwinists for distorting the theory in the public mind as merely a predator/prey dynamic just because that's all they care about.

113 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sun, Sep 18, 2011 3:21:26pm

re: #107 Steroid

When putting a system into play, it is not enough to be right; you must be intuitive as well.

What the hell is that supposed to even mean?

114 andres  Sun, Sep 18, 2011 3:31:26pm

re: #82 alabamapurpleneck

Back briefly, then gotta sign off for night.
Andres - if you know personal family members that refute single parent rule, then I stand corrected. Will attempt to find rule, and when it was applied, and post at some later date.

Ok.

"98% single family in inner cities" - will attempt to find source for general statistic. High percentage of broken families. Appalling and distressing. Can't be good for children or society at large. In general, my sources are the WSJ, Newsweek and Times.

Agree that facts should be correct.
But frankly, who can remember where every number comes from? I mean, really?

"98%" statistics are always suspect. Most of the time someone pulls a 98% statistic is out of thin air to give a semblance of respectability while doing 0 effort to support their opinion.

115 Prononymous, rogue demon hunter  Sun, Sep 18, 2011 3:52:46pm

re: #107 Steroid

More importantly it produces the prosperity that people want and are willing to work for, which is more difficult and more valuable than the prosperity that they have to be dragged to.

Yeah, I guess some of mankind's greatest achievements aren't really that valuable after all.

When putting a system into play, it is not enough to be right; you must be intuitive as well.

Bullshit. There is no law of nature that the right way of doing anything will necessarily be intuitive.

Please tell them that after they find that checked box, they can also find my private insurance card in my wallet. . . which if nothing else puts me ahead of Rand in the not-accepting-government-assistance department.

I see this as a metaphor for the larger "I'll be prepared for anything in life without needing any unanticipated help from others" attitude, while simultaneously relying on the fruits of family and society, provided by previous generations and other members in society, every single day.

116 Obdicut  Sun, Sep 18, 2011 4:52:11pm

re: #111 skullkrusher

out on a limb, as always, Obdicut. What's next? You gonna pillory Scientology?

Man, how could I hope to keep up with your contributions?

117 Obdicut  Sun, Sep 18, 2011 4:54:01pm

re: #112 prononymous

I'm not saying all successful Darwinian strategies are cruel, I'm saying that evolution does not give a shit whether the strategy employed is cruel or not. You're right that I expressed that a little glibly, but I still stand by what I said: We're the only thing that can actually choose, rather than randomly stumble upon, mutualism and cooperation as a strategy, the only things that can eschew a 'winning' strategy on moral grounds.

118 Obdicut  Sun, Sep 18, 2011 4:55:23pm

re: #107 Steroid

"Me-first" thinking is just as exploitable, though-- in the absence of perfect information. All it takes is someone tricking you, like the GOP has done with the people that vote for them.

119 Steroid  Sun, Sep 18, 2011 6:44:54pm

re: #115 prononymous

Bullshit. There is no law of nature that the right way of doing anything will necessarily be intuitive.

But if it isn't, then you'll never sell it to people. So either you force it on them, which doesn't make it right, or they don't take it, which also doesn't make it right.

I see this as a metaphor for the larger "I'll be prepared for anything in life without needing any unanticipated help from others" attitude, while simultaneously relying on the fruits of family and society, provided by previous generations and other members in society, every single day.

It wasn't actually intended to be a metaphor, but if you want to look at it that way, the point is that I'm relying on the fruits only of those I'm dealing with at the time, and not others except through concatenation. So the only people to whom I owe are those I actually agree to pay for their services.

Or, if you don't like to look at it that way, my own fruits will be enjoyed by future generations and by others currently in existence. If I owe others for what they have given me, aren't I entitled to present a bill for the good others achieve from me?

re: #118 Obdicut

"Me-first" thinking is just as exploitable, though-- in the absence of perfect information. All it takes is someone tricking you, like the GOP has done with the people that vote for them.

I don't consider myself tricked; I know what I'm asking for when I vote Republican, and I'm willing to take the imperfections to not get what I consider a greater perfection. But irrespective, if every ideology is exploitable, then it doesn't matter which I pick on that scale, so there's nothing that you should have particularly against me being selfish.

120 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sun, Sep 18, 2011 11:54:56pm

re: #119 Steroid

But if it isn't, then you'll never sell it to people. So either you force it on them, which doesn't make it right, or they don't take it, which also doesn't make it right.

OR you could try to simply argue your case and educate them (including fighting back against lies) in order for them to change their opinions. Your point assumes that there is no legitimate or efficient way of convincing people of something. Which is demonstrably false.

121 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Mon, Sep 19, 2011 12:02:40am

re: #119 Steroid

the point is that I'm relying on the fruits only of those I'm dealing with at the time, and not others except through concatenation. So the only people to whom I owe are those I actually agree to pay for their services.

Everybody is related to everybody else "through concatenation". One human species.

Not even mentioning all of the unearned privileges (or complete lack thereof) persons receive that are solely attributable to where, when and to whom they are born.

122 Obdicut  Mon, Sep 19, 2011 2:14:11am

re: #119 Steroid

I don't consider myself tricked; I know what I'm asking for when I vote Republican, and I'm willing to take the imperfections to not get what I consider a greater perfection. But irrespective, if every ideology is exploitable, then it doesn't matter which I pick on that scale, so there's nothing that you should have particularly against me being selfish.

You mean your'e willing to take imperfections to get what you consider greater perfection. Or something. But anyway: Yes, I'm sure you think you're not tricked.

And it would only not matter what ideology you picked if "Does this ideology prevent you from being tricked?" was the only metric for deciding between ideologies. It's not.

I'm pointing out that your belief that a 'me-first' ideology makes you less vulnerable to exploitation is foolish. Your response is to claim that you know what you're doing-- which may or may not be true, since it's hard to imagine a person putting up with the 'imperfection' of the GOP's massive anti-science campaign, their economic lunacy, and their general obstructionism. I find it more likely that you actually approve of those imperfections, than honestly see them as such.

123 Steroid  Mon, Sep 19, 2011 3:11:03am

re: #120 000G

OR you could try to simply argue your case and educate them (including fighting back against lies) in order for them to change their opinions. Your point assumes that there is no legitimate or efficient way of convincing people of something. Which is demonstrably false.

No, that means that your case, or at the very least an opening to it, is palatable enough that people will listen to you. It's when you happen to be right, but no one is listening to you, that you have to change tacks and package the argument in a better way, rather than declaring that because you're right, you get to assume the mantle of educator while treating everyone else as a student.

re: #121 000G

Everybody is related to everybody else "through concatenation". One human species.

Not even mentioning all of the unearned privileges (or complete lack thereof) persons receive that are solely attributable to where, when and to whom they are born.

I disagree. We are all individuals and our relationships are things we choose and can revoke at will. And just because a privilege is unearned does not mean it is not deserved. If I choose to give something that I earned to my children, it is theirs by right even if others lack for it, and shared humanity is no argument for taking it away.
re: #122 Obdicut

And it would only not matter what ideology you picked if "Does this ideology prevent you from being tricked?" was the only metric for deciding between ideologies. It's not.

Fair enough, but the other metrics have led me to decide on capitalist libertarianism.

I'm pointing out that your belief that a 'me-first' ideology makes you less vulnerable to exploitation is foolish. Your response is to claim that you know what you're doing-- which may or may not be true, since it's hard to imagine a person putting up with the 'imperfection' of the GOP's massive anti-science campaign, their economic lunacy, and their general obstructionism. I find it more likely that you actually approve of those imperfections, than honestly see them as such.

A) Why is it foolish? Wouldn't an ideology more geared toward the good of the self than the good of the others naturally want to eschew control than the reverse? B) I don't consider the Republican economic policy lunacy, nor do I consider their obstructionism of what I see as unwarranted strikes on liberty a flaw, nor do I see their anti-science campaign as anything more than being against science-as-ideology. I'm against their departures from ideology--George W. Bush increasing the size of government or George H. W. Bush raising taxes--and I'm against their use of religion as ideology and their anti-sex and anti-drug positions, but I find the imperfections of the Democrats more dangerous and debilitating.

124 Obdicut  Mon, Sep 19, 2011 3:59:16am

re: #123 Steroid

Fair enough, but the other metrics have led me to decide on capitalist libertarianism.

And what exactly do you mean by 'capitalist libertarianism'?

Wouldn't an ideology more geared toward the good of the self than the good of the others naturally want to eschew control than the reverse?

No.

I don't consider the Republican economic policy lunacy, nor do I consider their obstructionism of what I see as unwarranted strikes on liberty a flaw, nor do I see their anti-science campaign as anything more than being against science-as-ideology.

Oh. Are you a global warming denier?

125 [deleted]  Mon, Sep 19, 2011 4:25:17am
126 Obdicut  Mon, Sep 19, 2011 4:32:04am

re: #125 alabamapurpleneck

My understanding is that the Heritage Foundation is a highly regarded professional Conservative Think Tank.

Well, your understanding is incorrect. Their bit on how the poor aren't really poor is a good example of it; smarmy, cruel, and inhumane in the extreme.

They're highly regarded by conservatives, certainly.

But in general... you're too smart to be so glib about a highly regarded organization that simply disagrees with you.

Name one issue that they're actually credible on, that they've done good work on.

127 [deleted]  Mon, Sep 19, 2011 4:48:14am
128 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Mon, Sep 19, 2011 4:49:42am

re: #123 Steroid

No, that means that your case, or at the very least an opening to it, is palatable enough that people will listen to you. It's when you happen to be right, but no one is listening to you, that you have to change tacks and package the argument in a better way, rather than declaring that because you're right, you get to assume the mantle of educator while treating everyone else as a student.

But you talked about cases wholesale initially. Only in this reply you started differentiating between cases and their opening parts.

In any case, it does not make any sense, ethically, to simply demand intuitiveness from an instructor and have that be it. Why not also demand willingness to consider counter-intuitive alternatives? The demand that any new knowledge must at least partially pander to already held assumptions is indefensible, from a point of view concerned with truth rather than palatableness.

People may have the right to refuse to learn new stuff at some point, but the consequence is that they forfeit their participation in the wider social range of people who have expanded their knowledge through learning. Ignorance is their chosen fate, and it is an inherently asocial one. And why must it be that people are either students or teachers? Why can't they be both at the same time?

I disagree. We are all individuals and our relationships are things we choose and can revoke at will.

False. We cannot choose our biological parents, for instance, with at least one of which we neccessarily have at least a minimum of a social relationship with. Also, once chosen, a lot of relationships are NOT revokable at will because they are based on contractual obligations that e.g. cannot be revoked unilaterally or only through agreed forms of redemption.

If I choose to give something that I earned to my children, it is theirs by right even if others lack for it, and shared humanity is no argument for taking it away.

Sure it is, if your children keeping their stuff ammounts to denying others their basic humanity. For instance, if you bequeath your children with a farm that is the sole source of food in a region, your children do not earn any right to withhold food grown on it from those who would starve to death if it wasn't given to them – even if that ammounted to taking it away from your children.

129 Obdicut  Mon, Sep 19, 2011 4:56:47am

re: #127 alabamapurpleneck

Haven't read the article on poverty, but have heard the general gist before, and the general idea has some validity. That is, poverty in the Modern West is not what poverty of even 100 years ago was (or is in much of the rest of the world).

So what? Nobody ever claimed it was. They built a strawman and set it on fire. I'm supposed to respect them for that?

It is not so much a matter of no food in the stomach or roof over the head, as a social catastrophe.

No, there really are people going hungry in America. There really are shitloads of homeless people. You seriously don't know that?

130 [deleted]  Mon, Sep 19, 2011 5:07:03am
131 Obdicut  Mon, Sep 19, 2011 5:25:35am

re: #130 alabamapurpleneck

Sure. As I said, the drug war and the higher rate of incarceration for blacks than whites, the bigger difficulty of getting a job if you have a 'black-sounding' name (it's easier for a white felon to get a job than a guy who sounds black, how fucked up is that?), the massive legacy of inequities of education, all that shit is terrible.

But the hunger and the homelessness are real, too.

You seem for whatever goddamn reason to be seeing this through some lens of "Things were better back when," but when exactly are you saying that things were better?

And why do you keep talking about the UK?

132 Copernic  Mon, Sep 19, 2011 6:23:42am

Charles,
I enjoyed this piece and found it similar to my own development process. I do have one quibble about how you present evolution.

You say "I realized that we humans are the only thing that can break away from the Darwinian cruelty of the world". You say this as though empathy, kindness towards others and cooperation are somehow ant-Darwinian. They are not.

As social creatures, the forces that drive us towards self interest are no less powerful than the forces that make us cooperative. They are also no less Darwinian. Cooperation is a powerful intra and inter-species selection force that many biologists now argue is crucial to biological evolution. We somehow believe we as humans are beyond biology, when we are strongly fixed within its influences. It is who we are.

Believing we can transcend evolution and its cruel truths is like saying heavier than air flying machines cheat physics and its cruel "fall from the skies" realities. In fact, flights from LA to San Diego are possible because the physics works and is always applied. The same physical world that creates aerodynamics also gives us gravity.

We are human because biological evolution is at hand, making us selfish but wary of what others think, generous but sometimes naive, cooperative and appreciative. We try to lie and cheat but face our peers who have mechanisms to catch liars and cheaters. It's all a part of the game. We can't break away from something that makes us who we are.

133 Copernic  Mon, Sep 19, 2011 6:25:19am

re: #132 Copernic

Ooops. This was Obdicut's piece. Sorry for my confusion.

134 Obdicut  Mon, Sep 19, 2011 7:32:06am

re: #132 Copernic

No, I didn't say that kindness was not Darwinian. I pointed out that evolution does not judge its creations on the morality of their methods. It's perfectly true.

Basically, just read my 117.

As social creatures, the forces that drive us towards self interest are no less powerful than the forces that make us cooperative. They are also no less Darwinian. Cooperation is a powerful intra and inter-species selection force that many biologists now argue is crucial to biological evolution. We somehow believe we as humans are beyond biology, when we are strongly fixed within its influences. It is who we are.

Do you believe consciousness is just a passenger, with no actual ability to alter determinism?

Free will just an illusion?

135 Copernic  Mon, Sep 19, 2011 8:16:41am

re: #134 Obdicut

Obdicut

I think your #117 is more or less true. You are right that evolution doesn't judge what is good or bad in any other way than applying survival-weight towards the outcomes of these strategies.

However, you say we are the only ones that choose rather than "randomly stumble" upon these cooperative strategies. I think this is a false premise. The cooperation amongst apes or wolves or meerkats is no more random than that which we employ. We are all biological entities, employing strategies that are driven by as well as judged by the environmental context in which they are exhibited.

Our social structure is a phenotype of biological evolution. Now, does that mean that unfair usury practices or adopting orphans are selected for by evolution? No, but the mechanisms that drive these underlying desires are. Just as the desire to pursue fair exchanges and punish cheaters is also evolutionarily-driven. Just as is the preference to care for children that are from our in-group or are kin.

I guess what I'm saying is that there is no Darwinian world to break from. The very act of defying what we perceive to be cruel is also Darwinian. Secondly, we as humans, aren't the only ones who do this (this thing that isn't done anyway).

Do you believe consciousness is just a passenger, with no actual ability to alter determinism?

Free will just an illusion?

We'd have to make sure our terms are well-defined before we can get into this but yes, I believe this to be true. Although I am not clear about what it means to "alter determinism". Consciousness does seem to be an emergent property of a complex brain, not separate and distinct from it. You could call it a passenger. I'd call it a very large committee of loud, boisterous engineers trying to steer a train, adjusting occasional track changes and train speed based on who was loudest or what alliances dominated at the time.

There is a lot of scientific debate (wresting it from the philosophers) on the concepts of the self and of free will. To be sure, contra-causal free will certainly does not exist. Political or social freedom are not incompatible with determinism, nor are they synonymous with free will.

136 Obdicut  Mon, Sep 19, 2011 8:20:11am

re: #135 Copernic

We'd have to make sure our terms are well-defined before we can get into this but yes, I believe this to be true.

Then there is no point in talking to you, or in doing anything else.

137 Copernic  Mon, Sep 19, 2011 8:54:15am

re: #136 Obdicut

Wait. What? There's no point in talking? Why?

What's wrong with defining terms? Determinism and free will are often misused in the vernacular.

The very fact that you say "alter determinism" means you are not using the term in the philosophical sense but rather in the common usage. There's nothing wrong with that and I just assumed what you meant to say and gave you my opinion.

Yes, we can decide for ourselves and we can choose one strategy over others, but that doesn't mean things aren't deterministic, nor does it mean free will actually exists. That's all I'm saying.

138 Obdicut  Mon, Sep 19, 2011 9:12:26am

re: #137 Copernic

If you don't believe that free will exists, there is no point in talking to you, or in doing anything else.

139 Copernic  Mon, Sep 19, 2011 9:47:52am

re: #138 Obdicut

If you don't believe that free will exists, there is no point in talking to you, or in doing anything else.

Oh, I see. Well, that's too bad. So if I take a position that is supported by a sizable (though not all) portion of the scientific community that studies neuroscience, physics, behavior, etc, then it's not worth talking to me? Is it not worth talking to Stephen Hawking who also believes free will is an illusion? Or philosopher Dan Dennett? Are the nuances of determined probabilities (a form of determinism) within the quantum world also not worth talking about? Is contra-causal free will a defensible position? It think not, but there is a very healthy debate on this and its sad you would prefer to discard it.

I still feel that you are using the term "free will" in a different manner than I am. That is why I said it is helpful to establish the meaning of the terms we use. . . .and then you wrote me off. Which is fine, it's your thread, but then why ask if someone doesn't believe in free will if you already know the answer you are going to accept, particularly if you are not using the term in the same way?

140 Obdicut  Mon, Sep 19, 2011 10:13:14am

re: #139 Copernic

If you're a compatabilisit, like Dennett, then there is no point in you and I discussing free will. You might certainly have any number of things to teach me on other subjects, but we differ axiomatically on free will.

The argument you made was that all human society was evolutionaly determined. If instead what you meant was that it is evolutionary bounded, that's a truism, but fair enough. Did you mean that it was determined solely by evolution-- human conscious thought having no effect, those thoughts themselves deterministic-- or not?

141 Copernic  Mon, Sep 19, 2011 10:39:21am
In the end, I realized that the only hope for humanity really was rational self-interest, but it lay not in using the crude selfishness of Randism as the barometer of that self-interest, but the true extended phenotype of sympathy; we’re all in this together, and what helps others helps me.

At the end of the day, this is what the the piece boils down to; and a point of view I wholeheartedly agree with. It's just that I thought that the brief point on "running away from Darwin" was a quibble worth noting. Particularly since it implies the opposite of the bulk of the article.

142 Obdicut  Mon, Sep 19, 2011 10:41:59am

re: #141 Copernic

Then I don't understand your objection at all, except to the extent I already cleared up.

143 Copernic  Mon, Sep 19, 2011 10:51:06am

re: #140 Obdicut

The argument you made was that all human society was evolutionaly determined. If instead what you meant was that it is evolutionary bounded, that's a truism, but fair enough. Did you mean that it was determined solely by evolution-- human conscious thought having no effect, those thoughts themselves deterministic-- or not?

Yes, evolutionarily bounded. And, human consciousness absolutely drives the development of society and interrelationships. I would just argue that evolution drives the development of consciousness so therefor has a secondly effect.

144 Copernic  Mon, Sep 19, 2011 10:51:38am

re: #142 Obdicut

Yes, all cleared up.

145 Copernic  Mon, Sep 19, 2011 11:07:46am

re: #143 Copernic

secondly effect.

Oops. "secondary effect"

146 Obdicut  Mon, Sep 19, 2011 11:11:13am

re: #143 Copernic

Yes, evolutionarily bounded. And, human consciousness absolutely drives the development of society and interrelationships. I would just argue that evolution drives the development of consciousness so therefor has a secondly effect.

Sure. So what? I obviously don't mean that we can escape Darwinism as a whole. Nothing I said amounted to that. I said we're the only things that can break away from Darwinian cruelty of the world. We don't need to break away from the Darwinian kindness of it, though we can also improve on it.

147 benf_dc  Mon, Sep 19, 2011 12:34:40pm

Just a note to say that I enjoyed this post. I first encountered the thesis that Objectivism is an adolescent philosophy in a Michael Gerson column a few months ago, but your focus is not the same as his, and IMO you make your points well.

148 Solius  Mon, Sep 19, 2011 12:35:09pm

Well said!

149 Obdicut  Mon, Sep 19, 2011 12:51:31pm

re: #147 benf_dc

Good article. Thank you for sharing it.

150 [deleted]  Mon, Sep 19, 2011 6:18:22pm
151 Obdicut  Mon, Sep 19, 2011 6:35:56pm

re: #150 alabamapurpleneck

Back in the 30s, the marriage rate and two family rate in the black community ranged around 80%. Today, in the inner cities at least, we face melt down of the family. What two hundred years of slavery couldn't do and a 100 years or Jim Crow couldn't do, 50 years of liberalism pulled off.

Oh screw you. You probably don't even realize what a stupid asshole you sound like.

152 Obdicut  Mon, Sep 19, 2011 6:37:16pm

re: #150 alabamapurpleneck

And double-fuck you for repeating that gross, stupid lie about slavery. During slavery, most married black couples lived apart. Why? would you want to see your wife beaten and raped?

Shit. That is one of the most fucking awful lies ever to be uttered in the modern political landscape. I can't believe you just said that.

153 Obdicut  Mon, Sep 19, 2011 6:42:47pm

re: #150 alabamapurpleneck

And again, why obsess about the UK, and not Scandinavia? The Scandinavian countries are more 'welfare' even than the UK, you know.

So why aren't they the example you look to for how the 'welfare state' performs?

154 [deleted]  Mon, Sep 19, 2011 6:48:16pm
155 Obdicut  Mon, Sep 19, 2011 6:49:33pm

re: #154 alabamapurpleneck

Agreed
Slavery was evil
And the Black Family refused to submit or surrender or be beaten down.

No, you fuck, they didn't. They did submit. They were slaves. They were in a state of fucking submission. They were married and lived apart and their children were sold from under them and they couldn't stop it. And they were indeed, literally beaten down. Literally.

God damn it why do you fuckers need to minimize slavery like that?

156 Dancing along the light of day  Mon, Sep 19, 2011 6:51:07pm

re: #150 alabamapurpleneck

re: #154 alabamapurpleneck

ICK. They were slaves.
Do you need a dictionary?

157 [deleted]  Mon, Sep 19, 2011 6:51:41pm
158 Obdicut  Mon, Sep 19, 2011 6:52:03pm

re: #157 alabamapurpleneck

Then why did you claim blacks weren't beaten down during slavery?

What the fuck is that shit?

159 Charles Johnson  Mon, Sep 19, 2011 6:58:28pm

Freak. Get off my website.

160 Kronocide  Mon, Sep 19, 2011 7:00:42pm

re: #150 alabamapurpleneck

On the other hand, here's another distressing thought. Back in the 30s, the marriage rate and two family rate in the black community ranged around 80%. Today, in the inner cities at least, we face melt down of the family. What two hundred years of slavery couldn't do and a 100 years or Jim Crow couldn't do, 50 years of liberalism pulled off.

How did black families go from slavery and Jim Crow right to liberalism? Because they live in housing projects?

That is one of the most moronic things I've seen typed in a while, not to mention seriously racist.

Once whitey let them n****** free and we gave them free houses, they just screwed like rabbits and made a mess 'o demselves, hellya sho nuff.

Pathetic racist moron.

161 Kronocide  Mon, Sep 19, 2011 7:06:14pm

Wow. I feel like Sigourney Weaver after that one.

162 Obdicut  Mon, Sep 19, 2011 7:07:07pm

Holy crap.

Blacks refused to let themselves be beaten down during slavery.

I cannot believe that was uttered. It's such a denial of what slavery is. Slavery is not being able to refuse.

Holy crap.

163 Decatur Deb  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 8:12:18am

re: #159 Charles

Freak. Get off my website.

Huzzah!! The Alabama lizard concession is all (mostly) mine again.


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