Rick Perry: ‘As a Christian I Have a Directive to Support Israel’

Israel: the religious right’s personal apocalypse machine
Politics • Views: 37,720

Rick Perry clarified the reason behind his attack on President Obama’s Middle East policies today; as a fanatical fundamentalist Christian, he must support Israel because the appearance of the Jewish state is supposed to signal the End Times and the second coming of Supply Side Jesus: Perry’s Theocratic Foreign Policy: ‘As A Christian I Have A Clear Directive To Support Israel’.

PERRY: As a Christian I have a clear directive to support Israel, from my perspective its pretty easy both as an American and a Christian. I am going to stand with Israel.

This view is extremely common among the religious right; it’s known as Christian Zionism.

One thing you almost have to admire about Rick Perry — he doesn’t try to hide his religious fanaticism. He wears it on his sleeve. He’s telling you outright that he plans to govern America according to his religious beliefs.

In the TeaBag era, it’s undoubtedly one of the main reasons why he shot to the front of the GOP field so quickly.

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521 comments
1 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 11:19:35am

Oh! How could have Perry said such a harmful thing?

////

2 Decatur Deb  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 11:21:51am

When I'm drunk I have a directive to support Ireland. Slide the Noraid jar down the bar.

3 _RememberTonyC  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 11:21:52am

I'm sure President Obama would trounce Perry in the general election. It would not be close.

4 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 11:22:17am

On a related note: ThinkProgress is a pretty biased organization when it comes to reporting on American foreign policy regarding Israel. Their take on the last AIPAC conference (the one where Obama spoke) was despicable and misleading, the comments there filled with hatred against "Israel-firsters".

5 Buck  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 11:23:03am
As a Christian I have a clear directive to support Israel, from my perspective its pretty easy both as an American and a Christian. I am going to stand with Israel.

That is not an end of times link at all.

6 Kragar  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 11:23:04am

Any holy wars he'd like to start because he's a Christian? Maybe drop a few bombs for Jesus?

7 allegro  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 11:24:10am

re: #5 Buck

That is not an end of times link at all.

Please tell us then, what is the Christian "clear directive"?

8 Charles Johnson  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 11:25:53am

re: #5 Buck

That is not an end of times link at all.

Sure, let's just ignore the fact that Rick Perry's prayer rally was absolutely packed with extreme Christian Zionists, and that he personally advances their agenda every chance he gets.

9 darthstar  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 11:26:07am

re: #7 allegro

Please tell us then, what is the Christian "clear directive"?

1. A Jewish state.
2. The second coming.
3. All the Christians get to go to heaven in the big suck.
4. Everyone else, including the Jews who killed Jesus, gets to burn in hell.
5. Profit.

10 Kronocide  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 11:26:07am

re: #5 Buck

That is not an end of times link at all.

It most definitely is.

11 darthstar  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 11:26:31am

re: #10 BigPapa

It most definitely is.

I'd better buy some more seeds.

12 John Carroll  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 11:26:36am

This is why religion and politics are so dangerous. When you take a position for religious reasons, that position is impossible to alter, because to do so is to challenge the will of God (as you see it).

13 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 11:26:49am

"As a Christian... "

Nearly every time a political statement has begun with those three words, trouble has followed. Insert any other mythological belief there, and the same would be true.

14 lawhawk  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 11:28:08am

re: #2 Decatur Deb

Would that be the Guinness or the Jameson faction?

15 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 11:30:07am

re: #5 Buck

That is not an end of times link at all.

What do you think it signifies? Did he channel the synod of the Evangelical Church of the Rhineland from 1980 or something?

16 Decatur Deb  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 11:31:54am

re: #14 lawhawk

Would that be the Guinness or the Jameson faction?

For my sins, I can hardly get down more than a couple Guinness, and a bottle of Jameson's given by a dead friend years ago remains unfinished. More of a Black and Tan drinker, though I won't call it that at the Four Green Fields.

17 AK-47%  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 11:32:36am

re: #13 Slumbering Behemoth

"As a Christian... "

Nearly every time a political statement has begun with those three words, trouble has followed. Insert any other mythological belief there, and the same would be true.

Rather a generalization, but I find that are as many troublesome examples of it as there are positive ones in recent times.

18 Buck  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 11:33:21am

re: #15 000G

What do you think it signifies? Did he channel the synod of the Evangelical Church of the Rhineland from 1980 or something?

As a christian he supports Israel for the same reason that any right thinking person does.
He supports the Jewish state. Not because he is hoping to hurry up the end of times. But for the same reason Bill Clinton did.

19 Kronocide  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 11:33:48am

re: #14 lawhawk

Would that be the Guinness or the Jameson faction?

There is a direct correlation between my growing affinity for scotch and the propensity to saw 'Fer Fooks Sayk!'

Coincedence? I think not.

20 allegro  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 11:34:41am

re: #18 Buck

As a christian he supports Israel for the same reason that any right thinking person does.
He supports the Jewish state. Not because he is hoping to hurry up the end of times. But for the same reason Bill Clinton did.

Then why does he point out that his belief is due to his being Christian. And what is that clear directive he has as a Christian?

21 Decatur Deb  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 11:34:56am

re: #18 Buck

As a christian he supports Israel for the same reason that any right thinking person does.
He supports the Jewish state. Not because he is hoping to hurry up the end of times. But for the same reason Bill Clinton did.

What does Christianity have to do with that?

22 AK-47%  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 11:35:06am

re: #19 BigPapa

There is a direct correlation between my growing affinity for scotch and the propensity to saw 'Fer Fooks Sayk!'

Coincedence? I think not.

I find myself exclaiming "Ah, ya hoor!" lately even when sober...

23 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 11:35:15am

re: #5 Buck

That is not an end of times link at all.

If you're going to defend these dumb bigots, get the terminology right. It's not "end of times", it's "end times" or "endtimes". Yes, there is a difference. If you don't know it, you shouldn't be defending them.

They're not your friends.

24 Daniel Ballard  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 11:36:02am

Dominionist is Dominionist. Salon did a good job on this.

25 darthstar  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 11:36:06am

re: #22 ralphieboy

I find myself exclaiming "Ah, ya hoor!" lately even when sober...

I say the same thing when I look in the mirror in the morning.

26 jaunte  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 11:36:22am

Here's piece by John Piper that provides a good example of why fundamentalist Christians can be dangerous to Israel:

Do Jews Have a Divine Right in the Promised Land?

In summary: yes, but only if they stop rejecting the gospel of Jesus Christ.

27 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 11:36:32am

re: #18 Buck

As a christian he supports Israel for the same reason that any right thinking person does.
He supports the Jewish state. Not because he is hoping to hurry up the end of times. But for the same reason Bill Clinton did.

Did Bill Clinton precede his support for Israel with "as a Christian"? You are evading the question, as usual: What does "as a Christian" mean in Rick Perry's support for Israel? Your dodgeball answer seems to imply that it did not mean anything at all. So then why did he say it, Buck?

28 AK-47%  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 11:37:22am

re: #21 Decatur Deb

What does Christianity have to do with that?

His brand of Christianity, judging from the folks he invited to appear at his recent prayer rally, is rather clear on the link between Israel and End Times.

29 Decatur Deb  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 11:38:22am

re: #28 ralphieboy

His brand of Christianity, judging from the folks he invited to appear at his recent prayer rally, is rather clear on the link between Israel and End Times.

I understand that, but Buck seems not to.

30 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 11:38:27am

re: #18 Buck

the end of times

End times, get it right.

31 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 11:38:45am

Some Christian:

In San Antonio alone, unplanned children born to teens would fill 175 kindergarten classrooms each year. What's particularly galling to family planning advocates is that part of the money, $8.4 million, that was cut from family planning will now go to Crisis Pregnancy Centers around the state. Crisis Pregnancy Centers are part of the pro-life movement's answer to family planning clinics.

The Downtown Pregnancy Center's office in Dallas is located inside First Baptist Church's building, historically one of the most conservative and powerful Baptist churches in North Texas. Although it looks similar to a doctor's office, it is not a medical clinic; there are no well-woman examinations, no contraception services, free or paid, and no Pap smears.

32 wrenchwench  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 11:39:28am

re: #18 Buck

As a christian he supports Israel for the same reason that any right thinking person does.
He supports the Jewish state. Not because he is hoping to hurry up the end of times. But for the same reason Bill Clinton did.

Just like these guys.

33 Buck  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 11:40:41am

Somehow when a republican says he is a christian he is theocratic.

Despite never saying anything to support the idea of a theocracy, the smear is so easy....

Somehow when a democrat says he wants to raise taxes he is a communist.

Despite never suggesting support for communism, the smear is so easy.

34 Buck  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 11:41:09am

re: #30 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

End times, get it right.

nit picker

35 lawhawk  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 11:41:46am

Christian Zionists have umm... complicated views towards Israel and its Jewish citizens.

They see Israel's continued existence as a precondition for the End Times; this goes for whether that Christian Zionist was in the form of Jimmy Carter (during his Presidency and since largely renounced) or Rick Perry and other big name GOPers.

A Christian Zionists' support for Israel has a definite religious component and Israelis have made deals with these groups to continue support for Israel. They tend to be even more fervent in their support for Israel than many Jews. Heck Christian Zionists can make a Jewish supporter of Israel appear to be a Neturei Karta in comparison.

Israeli politicians can't ignore these supporters, even if they don't agree with their ultimate rationale for support (the End Times). But we have to take that support with the peril that it holds with a narrow worldview and one that ignores the facts on the ground.

36 Kragar  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 11:41:59am

re: #33 Buck

Somehow when a republican says he is a christian he is theocratic.

Despite never saying anything to support the idea of a theocracy, the smear is so easy...

Somehow when a democrat says he wants to raise taxes he is a communist.

Despite never suggesting support for communism, the smear is so easy.

nit picker

How many other candidates organized prayer rallies to ask God for help because their job was too hard?

37 Buck  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 11:43:08am

re: #32 wrenchwench

Just like these guys.

OOOOOhhhh once again. you burn me with a youtube video that you found where some guy named "Pastor Chuck" says something stupid.

How do you find stupid people posting things on the internet? You are amazing.

/

38 Sionainn  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 11:43:19am

re: #21 Decatur Deb

What does Christianity have to do with that?

It doesn't, but it is another way of implying that Obama isn't a Christian.

39 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 11:43:31am

re: #33 Buck

Despite never saying anything to support the idea of a theocracy, the smear is so easy...

The "smear" is easy because it's true. Why do you ignore Perry's well-documented links to Dominionism, which is an essentially theocratic movement?

As RWC had posted above: [Link: www.salon.com...]

Somehow when a democrat says he wants to raise taxes he is a communist.

Despite never suggesting support for communism, the smear is so easy.

Show me any support for Communism by any recent top Democrat. Yknow, like Norquist's allegation that Obama was basically Stalin: Support that with facts! Maybe the magical balance fairy will provide you with some if you've been good...

40 allegro  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 11:43:53am

re: #33 Buck

Somehow when a republican says he is a christian he is theocratic.

Despite never saying anything to support the idea of a theocracy, the smear is so easy...

Somehow when a democrat says he wants to raise taxes he is a communist.

Despite never suggesting support for communism, the smear is so easy.

So please tell us what is the Christian clear directive of which Perry speaks? With your great knowledge and wisdom of the subject, surely you can answer this simple question?

41 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 11:44:03am

re: #34 Buck

nit picker

Learn the difference between "end of times" and "end times" if you're going to leap to the defense of these dumb confederates. Why are you trying to impress them?

42 iossarian  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 11:44:44am

RW protip:

Raising the tax level on people making $1M a year from 36% to 39% is exactly the same as making all your policy decisions based on a highly speculative interpretation of 2,000 year-old apocalyptic texts.

43 Alexzander  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 11:44:44am

Sorry to be OT but after nearly a year I just got a job offer for full time work at a homeless shelter!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! So excited.

44 Interesting Times  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 11:44:58am

re: #36 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

How many other candidates organized prayer rallies to ask God for help because their job was too hard?

And how many other candidates declare official days of prayer for rain, all the while cutting funding for firefighting services?

45 Buck  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 11:45:35am

re: #40 allegro

So please tell us what is the Christian clear directive of which Perry speaks? With your great knowledge and wisdom of the subject, surely you can answer this simple question?

Supporting good over evil.

Yes, the people who are working on the destruction of Israel are evil. Maybe you think differently.

46 Kronocide  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 11:45:46am

re: #18 Buck

As a christian he supports Israel for the same reason that any right thinking person does.

That's what you want to believe. However there doesn't seem to be any evidence of this.

Does he believe in the End Times Rapture or not?

47 Kragar  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 11:45:53am

re: #44 publicityStunted

And how many other candidates declare official days of prayer for rain, all the while cutting funding for firefighting services?

Massive fires and drought are how the land rejoices!

48 iossarian  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 11:45:55am

re: #44 publicityStunted

And how many other candidates declare official days of prayer for rain, all the while cutting funding for firefighting services?

What better way to illustrate the AWESOME POWER OF FAITH!!!

49 Decatur Deb  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 11:46:28am

Lunch, BBL

50 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 11:46:36am

This "End Times" thing has been going on for what, 2,000 years?

I am beginning to think it's some kind of Ponzi scheme./

51 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 11:46:48am

All smears, people! These good and honest right-wing politicians never once actively seeked the support of religious fundamentalists!

Youtube Video
52 Sionainn  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 11:47:22am

re: #43 Alexzander

Sorry to be OT but after nearly a year I just got a job offer for full time work at a homeless shelter!!! So excited.

Fantastic!

53 jaunte  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 11:47:27am

re: #33 Buck

Somehow when a republican says he is a christian he is theocratic.

Despite never saying anything to support the idea of a theocracy, the smear is so easy...

Forcing Christian ceremony into military funerals against the wishes of the family (as John Culberson tried to do) is a good example of giving support.

“It makes my skin crawl that liberals are attempting to drive prayer out of a funeral ceremony for our heroes,” Texas Rep. John Culbersontold Fox News, which has given significant airtime to the controversy. “We’re going to fix this so that no Obama liberal bureaucrat will interfere with the funeral of a hero.” In addition to supporting the lawsuit, Culberson has threatened to stop the salary of the cemetery director who enforced the no-consent-no-God rule and to hold hearings in the fall investigating the VA's anti-Christian stance.
[Link: www.alternet.org...]

54 iossarian  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 11:47:41am

re: #45 Buck

Supporting good over evil.

Where does the Christian faith instruct us to use power to "support good over evil"?

I thought it was all about turning the other cheek.

55 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 11:49:49am

re: #32 wrenchwench

Just like these guys.

re: #37 Buck

OOOhhh once again. you burn me with a youtube video that you found where some guy named "Pastor Chuck" says something stupid.

How do you find stupid people posting things on the internet? You are amazing.

/

e_e

If you're going to defend these cretins, you should not be so ignorant of who they are.

"Pastor Chuck" isn't just some jackass on youtube. "Pastor Chuck" Chuck Smith, founder of the first Calvary Chapel. They were doing "Christian Zionism" before that term even came into vogue, along with a lot of other Southern California Evangelicals.

If you're unfamiliar with the Calvary Chapel movement, wikipedia has more. See esp the section on eschatology (that thing you're referring to as "end of times", out of ignorance.)

You may not know anything about this movement, but that won't stop those of us who do from talking about what they are.

56 Buck  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 11:49:57am

re: #54 iossarian

Where does the Christian faith instruct us to use power to "support good over evil"?

I thought it was all about turning the other cheek.

You thought wrong.

57 iossarian  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 11:50:35am

re: #56 Buck

You thought wrong.

Haha. Bible quotes please!

Where does the Bible instruct Christians to use force to suppress evil?

58 Alexzander  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 11:51:34am

Thank you everyone for the updings!

59 AK-47%  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 11:51:46am

re: #45 Buck

Supporting good over evil.

Yes, the people who are working on the destruction of Israel are evil. Maybe you think differently.

There are some evil people advocating the destruction of Israel. And there are others who are simply misguided and fin themselves instrumentalized by cynical, evil bastards.

Perry's association with dominionists, who are theocrats by their own admission, is a lot closer than any other presidents who have had religions associations/affiliations. Enough that they cause me some concern.

60 Buck  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 11:51:46am

re: #55 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

re: #37 Buck

e_e

If you're going to defend these cretins, you should not be so ignorant of who they are.

Did Rick Perry sit in his church for 20 years? Did he marry Rick Perry? Did he counsel Rick Perry?

Get it?

61 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 11:52:33am

re: #56 Buck

You thought wrong.

Lol you know eff-all about Christianity, in any of its 6,000 forms. That's how dudes like you land in bed with bigots. It reminds me of the dumb troothers who crawl around with neo-nazis because they tell the trooo oooth about 9/11.

Same
exact
mentality.

62 AK-47%  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 11:52:46am

re: #50 Slumbering Behemoth

This "End Times" thing has been going on for what, 2,000 years?

I am beginning to think it's some kind of Ponzi scheme./

One that has continued to pay for the people at the top of the pyramid...

63 Jimmi the Grey  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 11:53:36am

re: #56 Buck

I have noticed by your lack of sourcing that you appear to take a lot of your stances on faith. Please note that I (and others who have also mentioned your lack of sourcing) do not, and require evidence for conviction to take root.

kthxbye

64 Buck  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 11:53:40am

re: #57 iossarian

Haha. Bible quotes please!

Where does the Bible instruct Christians to use force to suppress evil?

Where did I say use force? That is your addition. That is your thing.

65 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 11:54:12am

re: #53 jaunte

Funeral for a hero.

Youtube Video
66 iossarian  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 11:54:47am

OK, Buck, I'll start:

Matthew 5:44, "love your enemies"

Matthew 5:39, "But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also."

Luke 6:29, "If someone strikes you on one cheek, turn to him the other also. If someone takes your cloak, do not stop him from taking your tunic."

1 Corinthians 6:7, "The very fact that you have lawsuits among you means you have been completely defeated already. Why not rather be wronged? Why not rather be cheated?"

Want more?

67 makeitstop  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 11:54:59am

re: #45 Buck

Supporting good over evil.

Yes, the people who are working on the destruction of Israel are evil. Maybe you think differently.

Buck, 2011 LGF Dodge Ball Champ.
/

68 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 11:55:28am

re: #60 Buck

Did Rick Perry sit in his church for 20 years? Did he marry Rick Perry? Did he counsel Rick Perry?

Get it?

No, you don't "get it", because you are ignorant. "Chuck Smith" isn't some guy putting iMovie vidoes of himself on youtube.

Don't you know what The Response is? All of those people are products of Chuck Smith - read the wiki article and educate yourself.

And while you're on the topic, just where DID pRick Perry go to church for 20 years? Do you know?

69 Lidane  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 11:55:37am

re: #37 Buck

How do you find stupid people posting things on the internet?

By reading your posts.

70 iossarian  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 11:55:46am

re: #64 Buck

Where did I say use force? That is your addition. That is your thing.

How do you think Perry is planning to stand up for Israel "as a Christian", Buck?

Maybe some bake sales?

71 Jimmi the Grey  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 11:57:02am

Off to an interview...wish me luck.

Back to lurk (and snark) laterz

72 Daniel Ballard  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 11:57:22am

I think some of the comments we see in this thread point out in a very small way why it's critical to keep politics and religion separate. Religious office holders must hew to secular laws and traditions while acting in their capacity as a leader or representative.

Keep your religion for your time in contemplation, meditation or at your house of worship. When a candidate openly removes that separation, he should MUST lose the election. Period. Sorry for the caps but I do feel very strongly about this.

73 Olsonist  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 11:57:56am

re: #33 Buck

...Despite never saying anything to support the idea of a theocracy, the smear is so easy...

"As a Christian I Have a Directive to Support Israel." That's a theocratic statement if there ever was one. Exactly what it says on the tin.

74 Buck  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 11:58:23am

re: #66 iossarian

None of those are relevant to the idea of supporting good over evil.

75 darthstar  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 11:58:58am

re: #58 Alexzander

Thank you everyone for the updings!

It's one thing to land a new job, and yet another to land a new job where you're doing good things for other people. Congratulations and kudos.

76 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 11:59:21am

re: #74 Buck

None of those are relevant to the idea of supporting good over evil.

Are you still in kindergarten? The world, to the consternation of conservative confederates, is not black and white.

77 iossarian  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 11:59:24am

re: #74 Buck

None of those are relevant to the idea of supporting good over evil.

Give me a Bible quote that indicates that we should be supportive of Israel in our foreign policy.

I suspect you can't.

78 makeitstop  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 12:00:49pm

OT: Best. Bachmann. Pic. Evar.

79 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 12:01:00pm

re: #77 iossarian

Give me a Bible quote that indicates that we should be supportive of Israel in our foreign policy.

I suspect you can't.

Lol or better yet, a Bible verse that says everyone must support every policy of Likud under Netanyahu or else they are "evil".

/rotfl

80 justaminute  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 12:01:12pm

Being born in Oklahoma with a church on every corner, Buck, we were raised with this stuff. My earliest memories if of the Preacher stating over and over again "Support of Israel is absolute. Jesus will return when they rebuild the temple...blah, blah, blah." I heard it all every Sunday, Sunday night, Wednesday evening because at 14 years of age until I was 17 when I escaped, I was the church pianist.

81 AK-47%  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 12:01:23pm

We support good over evil because enlightened individuals, Christian, Pagan or otherwise, understand that that is the only way to guarantee lasting peace, justice and the benefits of freedom to all of us.

I would be less skeptical of Perry's religiously themed statements if they did not come from a person of his background and associations. And his most recent prayer festival was a veritable lollapalooza of fundamentalist, dominionist thinking.

82 Buck  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 12:01:25pm

re: #70 iossarian

How do you think Perry is planning to stand up to Israel "as a Christian", Buck?

Maybe some bake sales?

stand up to Israel? That is for others to try and do.

To Stand WITH Israel? Well, if I have to explain that to you, then you are really lost.

If you don't understand what supporting and standing with Israel means, and can only see it as a selfish motive, then I feel sorry for you.

Do you stand with Israel? Do you support Israel?

83 iossarian  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 12:01:38pm

re: #74 Buck

None of those are relevant to the idea of supporting good over evil.

Actually, I'm going to revisit this one.

What do you mean, the quotes don't address the idea of supporting good over evil? They specifically say that Christians SHOULD NOT take action to resist evil, and that, if wronged, Christians SHOULD NOT retaliate.

What could be more clear?

84 Buck  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 12:02:15pm

re: #79 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

Lol or better yet, a Bible verse that says everyone must support every policy of Likud under Netanyahu or else they are "evil".

/rotfl

Fine, please tell me what policy you don't support. Maybe we can start there.

85 Olsonist  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 12:03:03pm

re: #83 iossarian

Buck is an Old Testament Christian.

86 iossarian  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 12:03:19pm

re: #82 Buck

stand up to Israel? That is for others to try and do.

To Stand WITH Israel? Well, if I have to explain that to you, then you are really lost.

If you don't understand what supporting and standing with Israel means, and can only see it as a selfish motive, then I feel sorry for you.

Do you stand with Israel? Do you support Israel?

Yes, but not "as a Christian", because I'm not a deranged gun-totin' innocent-man-executin' end-times-welcomin' bastard.

87 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 12:03:52pm

Like listening to a teenager that still believes in Santa Claus.

Youtube Video
88 Buck  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 12:04:08pm

re: #85 Olsonist

Buck is an Old Testament Christian.

Actually I am an Old Testament Jew...

You want to make something out of it?

89 SidewaysQuark  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 12:04:36pm

Like I said before, Pat Robertson is apparently running for President again. Last time it was a joke - looks like he could win now.....

90 Buck  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 12:04:48pm

re: #86 iossarian

Yes, but not "as a Christian", because I'm not a deranged gun-totin' innocent-man-executin' end-times-welcomin' bastard.

OK, why then? Don't tell me why not.... tell me why.

91 makeitstop  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 12:04:59pm

re: #87 Slumbering Behemoth

Like listening to a teenager that still believes in Santa Claus.

[Video]

He's so wedged into that suit, he looks like if you stuck him with a pin he'd fly around the room.

92 darthstar  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 12:04:59pm

re: #74 Buck

None of those are relevant to the idea of supporting good over evil.

Good over evil has nothing to do with international relations. That's all about control of commerce...and nothing else.
National Security - irrelevant.
Human Rights - a political requirement, but an annoyance all the same.
Keeping the "job creators" happy - priceless.

93 Interesting Times  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 12:05:19pm

Speaking of the End Times...

BreakingNews Breaking News
Typhoon Roke is on course toward crippled Fukushima Dai-Ichi nuclear plant bloom.bg/pIr2Dz

94 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 12:05:51pm

re: #82 Buck

Do you stand with Israel? Do you support Israel?

Yes, and yes, though one does not need grandstanding, pandering CZ bigots like pRick Perry for that. I do not stand with him or anyone like him.

95 darthstar  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 12:06:17pm

re: #88 Buck

Actually I am an Old Testament Jew...

You want to make something out of it?

Do you manage your family according to Leviticus?

96 AK-47%  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 12:06:54pm

re: #88 Buck

No, but it helps the discussion to this point.

I support the existence of Israel and insist that Palestine must recognize and respect its right to exist if it wishes to be considered for statehood.

But I do not do so out of a wish to see the Second Coming.

btw, "Buck" doesn't sound Jewish, was it originally Buckowski?

/

97 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 12:07:28pm

re: #85 Olsonist

Buck is an Old Testament Christian.

Buck knows jack-eff about any kind of Christianity, particularly the kind he's so emotionally invested in supporting.

98 AK-47%  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 12:08:42pm

re: #97 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

Buck knows jack-eff about any kind of Christianity, particularly the kind he's so emotionally invested in supporting.

ease up, please, and keep it civil. this thread is about to go off the rails. I disagree with the man but am willing to hear him out.

99 Buck  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 12:09:04pm

re: #96 ralphieboy

But I do not do so out of a wish to see the Second Coming.

btw, "Buck" doesn't sound Jewish, was it originally Buckowski?

/

And how would you feel if people insisted that you supported Israel only out of a wish to see the Second Coming? How fair would that be?

Buck is a nickname.... is that ok with you ralphieboy?

100 iossarian  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 12:10:08pm

re: #90 Buck

OK, why then? Don't tell me why not... tell me why.

Well, I should point out that what I "support" is the idea that peace can be achieved in that part of the world, hopefully in the same general vein as it is being achieved in Northern Ireland.

I think that Israel is a more genuine actor than other regional players in terms of striving for peace, but this is relative as not everything that Israel does is conducive to peace either. Condemning unhelpful actions is not the same thing as being "anti-Israel".

So, in general, I find myself siding with Israel. Massively difficult and complicated though.

101 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 12:10:44pm

re: #84 Buck

Fine, please tell me what policy you don't support. Maybe we can start there.

I didn't say anything about policies I personally do or don't support, so put that litmus paper away.

Your homework is to study the people you are defending, because you obviously know nothing about them.

102 AK-47%  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 12:10:57pm

re: #99 Buck

Buck is a nickname... is that ok with you ralphieboy?

just joking....but is your family from Bukovina by any chance?

103 darthstar  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 12:11:13pm

re: #99 Buck

I find it interesting that you like "The Kids are Alright"...there's a little liberal in you after all, Buck.

104 zora  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 12:12:20pm

re: #5 Buck

I never thought I would say this but "Buck is right". This is what Perry is referring to, imo.

New Living Translation (©2007)
I will bless those who bless you and curse those who treat you with contempt. All the families on earth will be blessed through you."

not the same as end-times prophecy.

105 Mattand  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 12:12:23pm
One thing you almost have to admire about Rick Perry — he doesn’t try to hide his religious fanaticism. He wears it on his sleeve. He’s telling you outright that he plans to govern America according to his religious beliefs.

What's scary is so many "independents" (or political Sasquatch, as I call them, 'cause there's little evidence they exist) will completely overlook this if this guy get the Republican nomination.

As for Buck: come on, dude. Really. Perry has been wrapping himself in right wing Xian scripture for a while now. Like Charles pointed out, look at some of the people on the dias at his "Pray for America" shindig.

These people all have a hard on for an Apocolypse which involves Jesus purchasing a time share in Jerusalem. Perry is right there with them. Don't kid yourself.

106 Buck  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 12:12:41pm

re: #100 iossarian

So, in general, I find myself siding with Israel. Massively difficult and complicated though.

Wishy washy, but fine....siding with Israel is the same thing as standing or supporting Israel.

Why not except the same from others who have never said anything contrary?

107 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 12:12:47pm

Rick Perry and his ilk are a cancer ravaging the body politic, there's just no other way to put it.

Peace out, Lizards.

108 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 12:13:27pm

re: #99 Buck

And how would you feel if people insisted that you supported Israel only out of a wish to see the Second Coming? How fair would that be?

Christian Zionism is not "fair" to anyone, especially Israel, Judaism, and the Jewish people. Politicians who inject theocratic views into their policies get the boot; we do not live in a conservative Christian theocracy.

If theocracy is what you want, move to Saudi Arabia or Iran, where they have them.

109 makeitstop  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 12:13:38pm

re: #99 Buck

And how would you feel if people insisted that you supported Israel only out of a wish to see the Second Coming? How fair would that be?

You seem very emotional about this.

Why so jacked up over people (rightfully) pointing out that End times Christians view Israel as a necessary component in the triggering of Armageddon?

They do. As Charles said, it's a fact.

110 wrenchwench  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 12:13:53pm

re: #99 Buck

And how would you feel if people insisted that you supported Israel only out of a wish to see the Second Coming? How fair would that be?

Buck is a nickname... is that ok with you ralphieboy?

I don't know why you support Israel. You don't know why Rick Perry supports Israel. People are trying to tell you, but your head is in the sand.

111 iossarian  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 12:14:32pm

re: #106 Buck

Wishy washy, but fine...siding with Israel is the same thing as standing or supporting Israel.

Why not except the same from others who have never said anything contrary?

Wishy washy?

Fine, if that's the alternative to killing innocent people, which is what your guy likes to do.

112 Olsonist  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 12:14:38pm

re: #88 Buck

Irony evidently is dead.

113 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 12:15:29pm

Perry has not done much to show he supports the Establishment Clause, IMHO.

He is pandering now to get the nomination, wonder what kind of animal will will become when he get's it.

he is a wiley one.

114 Buck  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 12:16:13pm

re: #109 makeitstop

You seem very emotional about this.

Why so jacked up over people (rightfully) pointing out that End times Christians view Israel as a necessary component in the triggering of Armageddon?

They do. As Charles said, it's a fact.

I am against painting people unfairly. When Charles made this post he was not saying "End times Christians view Israel as a necessary component in the triggering of Armageddon". He was saying Rick Perry view Israel as a necessary component in the triggering of Armageddon.

Fair or unfair?

115 wrenchwench  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 12:16:31pm

re: #104 zora

I never thought I would say this but "Buck is right". This is what Perry is referring to, imo.

not the same as end-times prophecy.

But Perry has done a lot more than possibly refer to that.

116 Buck  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 12:17:22pm

re: #112 Olsonist

Irony evidently is dead.

I don't think Irony means what you think it means.

117 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 12:17:42pm

re: #104 zora

I never thought I would say this but "Buck is right". This is what Perry is referring to, imo.

not the same as end-times prophecy.

Lizards picking and choosing Bible passages does nothing in clearing up where Perry comes from. The interpretation of Bible passages, their exegesis, is ultimatively derived from actual, distinctive traditions. The challenge is to identify the tradition Perry is refering to.

118 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 12:17:45pm

re: #115 wrenchwench

But Perry has done a lot more than possibly refer to that.

Lila Rose

GAH!

119 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 12:17:57pm

re: #56 Buck

You thought wrong.

Christianity is about holy warzzzzzzz

kill the infidels, baby, save the earth for our white white children

120 allegro  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 12:18:15pm

re: #114 Buck

I am against painting people unfairly. When Charles made this post he was not saying "End times Christians view Israel as a necessary component in the triggering of Armageddon". He was saying Rick Perry view Israel as a necessary component in the triggering of Armageddon.

Fair or unfair?

Taking Perry's actions and words as an entire body that is inclusive of this statement, more than fair. It's a fact.

122 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 12:18:26pm

re: #114 Buck

I am against painting people unfairly. When Charles made this post he was not saying "End times Christians view Israel as a necessary component in the triggering of Armageddon". He was saying Rick Perry view Israel as a necessary component in the triggering of Armageddon.

Fair or unfair?

"As a Muslim, I have a directive to support ______."

If Keith Ellison ever made such an utterance, you'd perish of fits.

123 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 12:18:48pm

re: #117 000G

Lizards picking and choosing Bible passages does nothing in clearing up where Perry comes from. The interpretation of Bible passages, their exegesis, is ultimatively derived from actual, distinctive traditions. The challenge is to identify the tradition Perry is refering to.

Whatever will get him elected.

Rick Perry is the center of Rick Perry's universe.

124 iossarian  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 12:19:39pm

re: #116 Buck

I don't think Irony means what you think it means.

Buck, don't you get that 50 years ago, someone like Perry would have been strongly anti-Jewish?

What's changed since then for these people? Or, more importantly, what hasn't changed?

125 Buck  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 12:20:59pm

re: #122 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

"As a Muslim, I have a directive to support ___."

If Keith Ellison ever made such an utterance, you'd perish of fits.

Depending on what he was supporting of course, BUT you don't know me....

However if he was criticized for such an utterance showing support for Democracy.... would you consider it theocratic?

Does Rick Perry have the same right and freedom to declare his religion as Keith Ellison?

126 makeitstop  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 12:21:09pm

re: #114 Buck

I am against painting people unfairly. When Charles made this post he was not saying "End times Christians view Israel as a necessary component in the triggering of Armageddon". He was saying Rick Perry view Israel as a necessary component in the triggering of Armageddon.

Fair or unfair?

Well, you were the one who rhetorically asked 'Did he attend the preacher's church for 20 years?' upthread - an obvious reference to Obama's association with Rev. Wright.

So, turnabout is fair play here AFAIC.

Obama was forced to renounce Wright and leave his church. If you remember, he ended up giving a major speech dealing specifically with his relationship to a member of the clergy.

Remember that? Fox News pounded on Obama for weeks about his ties to that church.

Fair or unfair?

And if you answer that is was fair to do that to Obama (which I'm sure you will), then why is it off-limits to speculate that Perry shares the same views as his preacher friends?

Be honest.

128 Charles Johnson  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 12:22:10pm

And by the way, another important point about Christian Zionist mythology is that at the End Times, Jews must convert to Christianity in order to trigger the return of Jesus.

This is "supporting Israel?" Yeah, kind of like a farmer supports a hog until it's time for the market.

129 Sheila Broflovski  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 12:22:22pm

I suppose these type of Christians are the same as Jews who believe that the state of Israel is the fulfillment of the Return to Zion and that Jews must claim all the land which was promised in Scripture.

Although, most Orthodox Jews do not believe that the secular state of Israel is fulfillment of prophecy, and there are different Scriptural interpretations as to what the exact borders are that were promised to the Israelites.

Do I believe that Israel should give up territory that it currently holds on to? No--but for the reason that doing so will not achieve "peace," not because of Scripture.

As part of negotiations, with "mutually agreed land swaps," well yeah, but since there is no negotiating party who is willing to "swap" in good faith, that has nothing to do with prophecy or scripture, it's just common sense.

I just thought I would throw that in, being the "ultra Orthodox" Jew on the forum.

130 Buck  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 12:22:34pm

re: #124 iossarian

Buck, don't you get that 50 years ago, someone like Perry would have been strongly anti-Jewish?

No... a further generalization that I find hateful and wrong.

131 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 12:22:38pm

re: #121 Charles

Christian Zionist Agenda Exposed by NAR Apostle Don Finto at Rick Perry Event, and Few Noticed

$5 that Buck will ignore and dodge this.

132 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 12:23:25pm

re: #125 Buck

However if he was criticized for such an utterance showing support for Democracy... would you consider it theocratic?

Confused question. Would you?

Does Rick Perry have the same right and freedom to declare his religion as Keith Ellison?

Now you're starting to catch on. Reverse "prick perry" and "Keith Ellison" in that question, and evaluate your answer.

133 jaunte  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 12:23:32pm

re: #130 Buck

They were socialists back then.

134 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 12:23:42pm

re: #125 Buck


so when you call it "end of times" were you confusing it with that movie "End of Days" where Arnold Schwartzenegger fights the devil


I heard that's straight out of the bible

135 lawhawk  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 12:24:24pm

re: #117 000G

The pandering kind. Use what is necessary to entice a certain group to vote for him. Perry and other GOPers think that the President has a weakened support among Jewish voters, and so he'll glom on to whatever is at hand. Claim the President is weak on Israel and that he's a strong supporter of Israel because of his Christian Zionist background.

Oh, but I'm sure someone will find the original source material to which Perry adheres to, and it will turn out to be not much different than which other Christian Zionists follow.

Same basic playbook with the same desired outcomes.

136 Buck  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 12:24:53pm

re: #131 000G

$5 that Buck will ignore and dodge this.

You owe me $5.

I have been clear that I am willing to play the "connect politicians to people they pal around with" if it is suddenly ok. I bet you $5 that Obama loses if we do.

137 wrenchwench  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 12:25:12pm

re: #130 Buck

re: #124 iossarian

Buck, don't you get that 50 years ago, someone like Perry would have been strongly anti-Jewish?

No... a further generalization that I find hateful and wrong.

How about today?

While Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and other Israeli politicians claim that Israel is being delegitimized by liberals, his Christian Zionist partners are systematically delegitimizing Judaism and teaching millions worldwide that it's not acceptable for Jews to continue to be Jews.

This attack on Judaism is not at first apparent because these Christian Zionists are blowing shofars, wearing tallitot (prayer shawls), singing in Hebrew, holding Holocaust remembrances, and celebrating Christianized versions of Jewish holidays. But they are appropriating these symbols and practices as part of their brand of evangelicalism, while their attacks on Rabbinic Judaism become increasingly hostile.

That's from the link Charles posted in #121.

138 Kronocide  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 12:25:13pm

re: #130 Buck

No... a further generalization that I find hateful and wrong.

Hateful? Even if incorrect, it's not hateful. This is another of many times you're used the term 'hateful' in this thread when there clearly wasn't any.

139 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 12:25:56pm

re: #136 Buck

You owe me $5.

I have been clear that I am willing to play the "connect politicians to people they pal around with" if it is suddenly ok. I bet you $5 that Obama loses if we do.

Playing "tu quoque" is dodging, Buck. Pay up.

140 wrenchwench  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 12:26:14pm

re: #136 Buck

You owe me $5.

I have been clear that I am willing to play the "connect politicians to people they pal around with" if it is suddenly ok. I bet you $5 that Obama loses if we do.

That's a dodge. You have addressed nothing from #121.

141 Kragar  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 12:26:21pm

re: #128 Charles

And by the way, another important point about Christian Zionist mythology is that at the End Times, Jews must convert to Christianity in order to trigger the return of Jesus.

This is "supporting Israel?" Yeah, kind of like a farmer supports a hog until it's time for the market.

"Why's he only got 3 legs?"
"You can't eat a pig like that all at once."

142 darthstar  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 12:26:35pm

re: #134 WindUpBird

so when you call it "end of times" were you confusing it with that movie "End of Days" where Arnold Schwartzenegger fights the devil

I heard that's straight out of the bible

I thought Schwarzenegger fought Gwyneth Paltrow in that movie. I must be getting my Merchant Ivory mixed up with my Golan Globus.

143 Decatur Deb  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 12:26:38pm

It is very bad for Israel to be linked and beholden to any of our presidential candidates. Pres. Obama is only about 50% likely to be the next president. All the others, at this point, have less than half that chance. Be careful what mast you tie yourself to.

144 iossarian  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 12:26:40pm

re: #130 Buck

No... a further generalization that I find hateful and wrong.

Examples of right-wing/christian conservative politicians from the 1950s who spoke out against anti-semitism please.

145 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 12:27:15pm

Interesting --

The SPLC Hate Map

The majority of the Hate Crimes seem to be in the Former Confederate States (and California and Texas).

I understand the size of the population of California and Texas are going to give them larger crime numbers. But why do the people in the Southern States Hate so much?

These are the voters that Perry is pandering to.--no?

147 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 12:27:18pm

re: #136 Buck

heading up a bigot-infested cult prayer rally


I guess we have a very elastic definition of "palling around" these days

148 jaunte  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 12:27:29pm

re: #121 Charles

This bears repeating:

The most serious threat to Jews and Judaism in this proselytizing effort is not the obvious problem of Jews converting to Christianity. Don Finto and the apostles claim this is happening in record numbers, but there is a more pressing issue. The NAR's proselytizing network is teaching millions of Christians that Jews are spiritually dead and Judaism is a rebellion against God, a reversal of progress that had been made in interfaith dialogue and acceptance since the Holocaust.

While Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and other Israeli politicians claim that Israel is being delegitimized by liberals, his Christian Zionist partners are systematically delegitimizing Judaism and teaching millions worldwide that it's not acceptable for Jews to continue to be Jews.
[Link: www.talk2action.org...]

149 Olsonist  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 12:27:29pm

re: #116 Buck

I don't think Irony means what you think it means.

I'm damned sure irony means what I think it means and I'm indifferent to what you think it means:

the expression of one's meaning by using language that normally signifies the opposite, typically for humorous or emphatic effect

Calling a Jew an Old Testament Christian, while not an exact opposite as the somewhat restrictive dictionary definition would require, is using opposing terms for a humorous effect sadly lost on you.

150 Kronocide  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 12:27:35pm

re: #136 Buck

You owe me $5.

I have been clear that I am willing to play the "connect politicians to people they pal around with" if it is suddenly ok. I bet you $5 that Obama loses if we do.

You'd love that because it's would be an out from the incessant hammering you're getting over denying that Perry is a Rapturer who supports Israel for that reason.

151 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 12:27:51pm

re: #142 darthstar

I thought Schwarzenegger fought Gwyneth Paltrow in that movie. I must be getting my Merchant Ivory mixed up with my Golan Globus.

And Satan was in that guy's chest, and there was that guy with the drill machine

152 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 12:28:37pm

re: #126 makeitstop

And if you answer that is was fair to do that to Obama (which I'm sure you will), then why is it off-limits to speculate that Perry shares the same views as his preacher friends?

Be honest.

Yeah, thus the question - just what church(es) DID pRick Perry attend for 20 years.

Sarah Palin attended Wasilla Assembly of Crankjobs for 20 years. Wasn't an issue with Buck, I can guarantee it.

153 Buck  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 12:29:33pm

re: #140 wrenchwench

I am just tired of repeating the same thing over and over.

#29


Can you find some Fundamentalist Christians who do? Sure. And I can find some Fundamentalist Muslims who will declare that all Jews come from apes and pigs. However it would be wrong to say that all are anti semites. (or terrorists, or unfaithful to the USA, or...)

154 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 12:29:34pm

re: #123 ggt

Whatever will get him elected.

Rick Perry is the center of Rick Perry's universe.

re: #135 lawhawk

The pandering kind. Use what is necessary to entice a certain group to vote for him.

Too easy an answer. He is pandering alright, but not pandering arbitrarily, to everyone and about everything. That would be counterproductive as it would make his message appear incoherent and insincere even to those who want him to be the one leading the fight agains the Anti-Christ.

The question remains: Who are the certain groups? What are the traditions? What is Perry zeroing in on?

Christian Zionism is a distinct movement, distinct from a lot of other Christian movements.

Btw, of course one can be a Christian and be a Zionist without being a Christian Zionist. But that is not what Perry is about.

155 wrenchwench  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 12:30:10pm

re: #148 jaunte

This bears repeating:

Yeah, but can you reach through your screen and put it where Buck can't dodge it?

156 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 12:30:18pm

edit mess, urgh

157 Buck  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 12:30:58pm

re: #149 Olsonist

Not the opposite, or humorous... so irony fail.

158 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 12:31:21pm

re: #154 000G

re: #135 lawhawk

Too easy an answer. He is pandering alright, but not pandering arbitrarily, to everyone and about everything. That would be counterproductive as it would make his message appear incoherent and insincere even to those who want him to be the one leading the fight agains the Anti-Christ.

The question remains: Who are the certain groups? What are the traditions? What is Perry zeroing in on?

Christian Zionism is a distinct movement, distinct from a lot of other Christian movements.

Btw, of course one can be a Christian and be a Zionist without being a Christian Zionist. But that is not what Perry is about.

Too easy an answer?

Sorry, I think Rick Perry is a politician who wants to be POTUS. He is a shrewd politican.

159 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 12:31:57pm

re: #152 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

"Kalnins has preached that critics of President Bush will be banished to hell; questioned whether people who voted for Sen. John Kerry in 2004 would be accepted into heaven; and preached that the Sept. 11 attacks and the war in Iraq were part of a world war over Christianity".[4] Kalnins preached "I believe that Alaska is one of the refuge states... in the Last Days, and hundreds of thousands of people are going to come to this state to seek refuge. And the church has to ready to minister to them"

man, these guys must watch a lot of movies

When jesus comes back, I'M GONNA HAVE A VAN, WITH A MACHINE GUN MOUNTED ON IT, AND AND ROCKETS, AND IT'LL BE CALLED ROLLING THUNDER


and then we we'll have A CHURCH THAT'S UPARMORED AND WE'LL BUILD A BOMB SHELTER, IT'LL BE SWEET

Also if you vote for the wrong guy in the general, you're going to double satan hell, I just made it up but it's totally gnarly

160 darthstar  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 12:32:00pm

re: #157 Buck

Not the opposite, or humorous... so irony fail.

I think you're humerus, Buck...a real boner.

161 zora  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 12:32:14pm

re: #115 wrenchwench

i get that but that's not what the article says or links to.

162 jaunte  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 12:32:24pm

re: #155 wrenchwench

Here's another goodie:

Lou Engle states that the physical restoration of Israel in 1948 may have been the result of the fasting and faith-healing revivals of the late 1940s. These lead to what is called the Latter Rain Movement, a forerunner of the NAR. A purpose for The Call events is the "spiritual restoration" of Israel, meaning the conversion of Jews to evangelical Christianity. (John Hagee also frequently uses this terminology although the meaning does not seem to be apparent to Jewish audiences.)

Wow; Christians prayer revivals made the state of Israel happen.

163 wrenchwench  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 12:32:26pm

re: #153 Buck

I am just tired of repeating the same thing over and over.

That's a dodge. The words I quoted and Jaunte quoted were spoken at a rally put on by RICK PERRY. You have not addressed that.

164 iossarian  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 12:32:58pm

re: #160 darthstar

I think you're humerus, Buck...a real boner.

Join me on the dark side ... poking fun at RW fail is fun ...

165 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 12:33:10pm

re: #145 ggt

That's a map of hate groups, not crimes. Interesting - California used to lead with 80 (probably 2 years ago, iirc.)

Now we lead with a mere 68 :/

Yes, there be confederates here, ask me how I know.

166 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 12:33:18pm

re: #153 Buck

I am just tired of repeating the same thing over and over.

we're tired of you not answering the question about whether Arnold in End of Days could kick Eraser Arnold's ass

167 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 12:33:28pm

re: #158 ggt

Too easy an answer?

Sorry, I think Rick Perry is a politician who wants to be POTUS. He is a shrewd politican.

Him being a shrewd politician does not absolve him from having to make choices regarding whom to pander to.

168 Buck  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 12:33:36pm

re: #154 000G
Btw, of course one can be a Christian and be a Zionist without being a Christian Zionist. But that is not what Perry is about.

Because you say so.

Has he said so?

169 Flavia  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 12:33:56pm

As a Jew, I will fight to my utmost against that sort of "support" (Ok, as an American, too, but I thought I'd go w/the motif as set...).

170 Kragar  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 12:34:08pm

re: #165 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

That's a map of hate groups, not crimes. Interesting - California used to lead with 80 (probably 2 years ago, iirc.)

Now we lead with a mere 68 :/

Yes, there be confederates here, ask me how I know.

You once lived in Klantee?

171 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 12:34:17pm

re: #168 Buck

Btw, of course one can be a Christian and be a Zionist without being a Christian Zionist. But that is not what Perry is about.

Because you say so.

Has he said so?

That's a dodge. The words I quoted and Jaunte quoted were spoken at a rally put on by RICK PERRY. You have not addressed that.

That's a dodge. The words I quoted and Jaunte quoted were spoken at a rally put on by RICK PERRY. You have not addressed that.

That's a dodge. The words I quoted and Jaunte quoted were spoken at a rally put on by RICK PERRY. You have not addressed that.

That's a dodge. The words I quoted and Jaunte quoted were spoken at a rally put on by RICK PERRY. You have not addressed that.

That's a dodge. The words I quoted and Jaunte quoted were spoken at a rally put on by RICK PERRY. You have not addressed that.

That's a dodge. The words I quoted and Jaunte quoted were spoken at a rally put on by RICK PERRY. You have not addressed that.

172 darthstar  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 12:34:18pm

Come on, people...humerus...boner? That's fucking hilarious. Try the veal.

173 wrenchwench  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 12:34:32pm

re: #161 zora

i get that but that's not what the article says or links to.

Oops, you are correct. However, I think it would be a mistake to limit one's analysis of Perry to that article and its links.

174 Decatur Deb  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 12:34:32pm

re: #165 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

That's a map of hate groups, not crimes. Interesting - California used to lead with 80 (probably 2 years ago, iirc.)

Now we lead with a mere 68 :/

Y...snip

Not on a per-capita basis.

175 CuriousLurker  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 12:34:37pm

re: #121 Charles

Christian Zionist Agenda Exposed by NAR Apostle Don Finto at Rick Perry Event, and Few Noticed

From the article, emphasis mine:

The NAR's proselytizing network is teaching millions of Christians that Jews are spiritually dead and Judaism is a rebellion against God, a reversal of progress that had been made in interfaith dialogue and acceptance since the Holocaust.

Question for Jewish members: Is this or is it not a form of anti-Semitism?

176 Buck  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 12:34:40pm

re: #163 wrenchwench

That's a dodge. The words I quoted and Jaunte quoted were spoken at a rally put on by RICK PERRY. You have not addressed that.

Were they spoken by him?

177 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 12:34:44pm

re: #168 Buck

in case you missed it

178 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 12:34:52pm

re: #159 WindUpBird

man, these guys must watch a lot of movies

When jesus comes back, I'M GONNA HAVE A VAN, WITH A MACHINE GUN MOUNTED ON IT, AND AND ROCKETS, AND IT'LL BE CALLED ROLLING THUNDER

and then we we'll have A CHURCH THAT'S UPARMORED AND WE'LL BUILD A BOMB SHELTER, IT'LL BE SWEET

Also if you vote for the wrong guy in the general, you're going to double satan hell, I just made it up but it's totally gnarly

lol

179 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 12:35:20pm

re: #170 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

You once lived in Klantee?

Klantana.

180 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 12:35:31pm

re: #165 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

That's a map of hate groups, not crimes. Interesting - California used to lead with 80 (probably 2 years ago, iirc.)

Now we lead with a mere 68 :/

Yes, there be confederates here, ask me how I know.

Ah, my fingers were not typing correctly --you are right, groups, not crimes.

Still, I don't see Perry pandering to anything but white, christian voters.

What kind of Presidential Candidate does this?

181 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 12:35:31pm

re: #176 Buck

Were they spoken by him?

I started a KKK rally

but I didn't SAY anything there


so it's not my fault if they talk about killing black people there

182 makeitstop  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 12:35:31pm

re: #136 Buck

You owe me $5.

I have been clear that I am willing to play the "connect politicians to people they pal around with" if it is suddenly ok. I bet you $5 that Obama loses if we do.

Ahem.

You opened that can of worms, Buck. Don't try to blame it on anyone else here.

183 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 12:35:31pm

re: #148 jaunte

This bears repeating:

Cue Buck sticking fingers in his ears and rambling about Pastor Wright.

184 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 12:36:03pm

re: #167 000G

Him being a shrewd politician does not absolve him from having to make choices regarding whom to pander to.

Yes, I think he is banking on Divine support.

185 wrenchwench  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 12:36:29pm

re: #176 Buck

Were they spoken by him?

That's your standard? He has to say the words himself, not just provide the forum and choose the speakers?

186 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 12:36:34pm

re: #176 Buck

Were they spoken by him?

Did he come out against them, or distance himself from them?

187 iossarian  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 12:36:38pm

re: #181 WindUpBird

I started a KKK rally

but I didn't SAY anything there

so it's not my fault if they talk about killing black people there

LOL.

I am not to be held responsible for the things people say at my prayer rallies!

OBAMA SEKRIT MUSLIM PASTOR HATES AMERICA!!!

188 Kronocide  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 12:36:51pm

re: #159 WindUpBird

My favorite 'Jesus Come Back' movie thought:

Superimpose Jesus' face on Slim Pickens as he's riding The Bomb all the way down.

I have no doubt that a person like Perry or Bachmann would push brinksmanship to the edge of world war, and at any real threshhold of 'point of no return,' would say 'Oh fuck it, Jesus will come for us.'

They may even think that they are there to help move it along since they think God wanted them to be POTUS.

189 Buck  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 12:37:00pm

re: #173 wrenchwench

Oops, you are correct. However, I think it would be a mistake to limit one's analysis of Perry to that article and its links.

Yes, a mistake and not nearly as much fun as opening up analysis of Perry to stuff we can make up.

190 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 12:37:10pm

re: #168 Buck

Because you say so.

No, because of whom he, all throughout the most recent days, happily and affirmatively associated with, in his function of an official politician.

191 Kragar  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 12:37:15pm

re: #181 WindUpBird

I started a KKK rally

but I didn't SAY anything there

so it's not my fault if they talk about killing black people there

I guess we missed where Perry came out and denounced the people at his rally saying their beliefs didn't represent his own, even after he invited them and still counts on their backing.

192 AK-47%  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 12:37:43pm

re: #175 CuriousLurker

From the article, emphasis mine:


Question for Jewish members: Is this or is it not a form of anti-Semitism?

It is a strong indication that their support of Israel has nothing to do with respect for Judaism and interest in the existence and continued well-being of Israel and its inhabitants, but is part of their religions ideology and its dark and twisted machinations.

That is what continues to disturb me about Rick Perry, not his support for Israel per se.

193 darthstar  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 12:38:06pm

re: #176 Buck

Were they spoken by him?Did he say those words?

Please, your use of the passive voice is more annoying than your stubborn defense of Rick Perry.

194 Sheila Broflovski  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 12:38:09pm

re: #121 Charles

Christian Zionist Agenda Exposed by NAR Apostle Don Finto at Rick Perry Event, and Few Noticed

"I have become convinced that Rabbinic Judaism is a more severe departure from biblical faith than I had ever realized in my early days of Jewish recovery...The atmosphere of New Testament carried on the spirit of the Hebrew Scriptures pervasively and profoundly. The essence of Rabbinism is a severe departure, replacing revelation with human reason...We who are Jewish are biblical New Covenant Jews, not Rabbinic Jews!"

You will find these people posting on a lot of Israeli forums, like Jerusalem Post or YNet, claiming to be Jewish yet bashing "rabbinics" and "haredim" and claiming to follow "pure scripture." At first I thought that these posters were Karaites (an ancient and now very marginal sect derived from Sadduceeism) but they didn't sound the same as the people who actually posted to Karaite forums. The authentic Karaites are much less hostile to normative Judaism.

Another thing is that these "messianics" (not to be confused with the Lubavitcher meshichisten who claim that the late Rebbe OB"M is Mashiach), when they do manage to snare a sucker convert, they wave him or her around like a big trophy, like this represents the "True Jews" and all the rest of us are just fake Jews, I guess. Holocaust survivors are worth extra points.

195 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 12:38:21pm

re: #186 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

Did he come out against them, or distance himself from them?

I RENOUNCE THESE PEOPLE I INVITED TO MY RALLY AND GAVE MONEY TO, AND PROVIDED A FORUM FOR, AND PUT ON THE SCHEDULE

I'LL RENOUNCE THEM, AS SOON AS I GIVE THEM A REACH AROUND


AND MAYBE SOME AMERICAN APPLE PIE, WE'LL EAT THAT BEFORE I RENOUNCE

IT'LL HAPPEN VERY SOON, THE RENOUNCING

I PROMISE

196 wrenchwench  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 12:38:31pm

re: #189 Buck

Yes, a mistake and not nearly as much fun as opening up analysis of Perry to stuff we can make up.

What did I or anyone else make up?

The only fantasy here is that you might open your eyes.

197 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 12:39:13pm

re: #191 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

I guess we missed where Perry came out and denounced the people at his rally saying their beliefs didn't represent his own, even after he invited them and still counts on their backing.

THERE'LL BE RENOUNCING FORTHWITH

198 Sheila Broflovski  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 12:39:46pm

re: #162 jaunte

Here's another goodie:

Wow; Christians prayer revivals made the state of Israel happen.

What kind of prayer rallies were they holding while Jews were in the death camps?

199 darthstar  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 12:39:52pm

re: #197 WindUpBird

THERE'LL BE RENOUNCING FORTHWITH

My refudiator is in the shop.

200 darthstar  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 12:40:59pm

re: #198 Alouette

What kind of prayer rallies were they holding while Jews were in the death camps?

Very inefficient ones.

201 makeitstop  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 12:40:59pm

re: #140 wrenchwench

That's a dodge. You have addressed nothing from #121.

Nor my #126.

202 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 12:41:13pm

re: #176 Buck

Were they spoken by him?

If Rick Perry had chosen to lead and speak at a neo-nazi rally instead of a christian prayer rally, would you give him the same benefit of the doubt, as far as affirmative association with the other speakers and the affirmation of their endorsement was concerned?

Who do you think you are kidding?

203 wrenchwench  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 12:41:24pm

re: #189 Buck

Yes, a mistake and not nearly as much fun as opening up analysis of Perry to stuff we can make up he had people say for him at the rally he put on.

FTFY.

204 Iwouldprefernotto  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 12:42:06pm

As a Jew, I have a directive to not vote for haters...

205 Kragar  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 12:43:31pm

re: #197 WindUpBird

THERE'LL BE RENOUNCING FORTHWITH

He disavowed the disavowal of his previous disavowment.

206 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 12:43:46pm

re: #180 ggt

Ah, my fingers were not typing correctly --you are right, groups, not crimes.

Still, I don't see Perry pandering to anything but white, christian voters.

What kind of Presidential Candidate does this?

I think he's a step ahead of some, on that. The Response website has gone down, but the roster was quite diverse. That's not unusual for that kind of Christianity (neo-Pentecostal/Charismatic); I know, because I was raised in it.

These bigots are on a real collision course with themselves. They've got GOProud Breitbarts clamoring with us liberal homos for equal rights, a buttload of nonwhite confederates like Herman Cain, white women like Palin and Bachmann who are shoving the rwnj epithet "feminazi" back underground...I think their self-induced social dilemma is kind of funny, tbh.

207 lawhawk  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 12:44:09pm

FYI, for those who have been following the rally against Wall Street in Lower Manhattan at Zuccotti Park, they've got another group, the IAC, horning in on the action to protest the pending execution of Troy Davis in GA.

208 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 12:44:11pm

re: #189 Buck

a question


I've got a lot of Jewish people here who are very concerned about (and disgusted with) Rick Perry and Christian Zionism


explain to me how you are more qualified than they are to speak about Christian Zionism


make me understand :D

209 Buck  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 12:44:18pm

re: #181 WindUpBird

I started a KKK rally

but I didn't SAY anything there

so it's not my fault if they talk about killing black people there

Ya, their christian faith is equal to KKK. Very nice. Anyone see the harm?

210 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 12:44:33pm

re: #205 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

He disavowed the disavowal of his previous disavowment.

"I disavowed that sheeit! Rope 'em dogies! Yeehah!"

211 Sheila Broflovski  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 12:45:01pm

re: #175 CuriousLurker

The NAR's proselytizing network is teaching millions of Christians that Jews are spiritually dead and Judaism is a rebellion against God, a reversal of progress that had been made in interfaith dialogue and acceptance since the Holocaust.

Question for Jewish members: Is this or is it not a form of anti-Semitism?

There are two kinds of "anti-Semitism"

There is the racial anti-Semitism, which hates the Jews because they supposedly belong to an inferior race, and there is the religious anti-Semitism, which hates Judaism. The second type of anti-Semitism (I prefer the term "Jew hatred" since "anti-Semitism" was a term made up by a racial Jew hater) also includes anti-Zionism and Jewish "self-hate"

212 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 12:45:02pm

re: #189 Buck

Yes, a mistake and not nearly as much fun as opening up analysis of Perry to stuff we can make up.

"As a Christian, I...."

No one made that up, Buck. It's a direct quote. Now read the teleprompter and tell us "it was taken out of context."

213 Kronocide  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 12:45:08pm

I'm not a racist, I'm a racial separatist

'Generic Racial Separatist' at a David Duke campaign stop

214 iossarian  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 12:45:15pm

re: #209 Buck

Ya, their christian faith is equal to KKK. Very nice. Anyone see the harm?

Buck, they're talking about curing gay people.

You don't see a problem with that?

215 Sheila Broflovski  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 12:45:21pm

re: #200 darthstar

Very inefficient ones.

Unless they were praying for the Jews to die.

216 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 12:45:29pm

And here we have several major problems rolled into one.

There is the issue that by making support of Israel into a purely religious based idea - and one which is not all that great if you are Jewish - support of of Israel becomes polarized in all manner of directions that it should not be, and the question gets muddied in any number of ways.
For the record, waiting around in our land so that we can bring the fundy messiah and then all convert or burn in hell is not quite how Jews see the need for the homeland to be in our hands.

People should support Israel because, despite all the propaganda they are one of our closest democratic allies, and a useful strategic, technological and military partner who is none the less frequently ill used by us. Also despite the propaganda, they are the ones under continuous attack by barbaric and theocratic forces who actually want to kill them all.

Along the way, all that gets lost in the natural revulsion one feels towards someone like Perry if they are at all of a thinking sort. The independent or Dem, who doesn't know all that much about the history of the Middle East, hears crazy Perry say stuff like this and assumes that Israel can't be that great if loons like Perry support her in such a way.

But then there the flip issue that yes, president Obama has been a better friend to Israel of late but there is a kernel of painful truth to Perry's remarks (no doubt written for him) about Obama's naivety in the middle east and how his demands and "distancing himself" from Israel actually has emboldened groups in the region. Obama really did get off to a bad start. He also managed to double down on it enough that his recent attempts to change his image make many in the community wonder if he is waking up to the realities of the M.E. or simply trying to cover his ass in an upcoming election.

Unfortunately, Perry and the GOP are so horrible, and people are so used to thinking about things as only two sates, if not A then B and if not B then A, that people who honestly support Israel, and criticize Obama get lumped in with him - and saddest of all so does Israel too.

217 Buck  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 12:46:07pm

re: #208 WindUpBird

a question

I've got a lot of Jewish people here who are very concerned about (and disgusted with) Rick Perry and Christian Zionism

explain to me how you are more qualified than they are to speak about Christian Zionism

make me understand :D

I am speaking about generalizations. However what concerns them about Christian Zionism? What is their worse fear?

218 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 12:46:14pm

re: #209 Buck

Ya, their christian faith is equal to KKK. Very nice. Anyone see the harm?

No, the anti-Jewish/anti-Judaism aspects of their "faith" is equal to the KKK.

Not only is it equal to the KKK, it is the same.

219 makeitstop  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 12:46:23pm

re: #209 Buck

Ya, their christian faith is equal to KKK. Very nice. Anyone see the harm?

Geez, Buck. You better hope the power for the deflector shields hold up.

(And you still haven't responded to my #126. Why not give an honest answer when you're asked?)

220 wrenchwench  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 12:46:37pm

re: #209 Buck

Ya, their christian faith is equal to KKK. Very nice. Anyone see the harm?

Analogy comprehension fail.

221 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 12:46:38pm

re: #209 Buck

Ya, their christian faith is equal to KKK. Very nice. Anyone see the harm?

Well, you're not gay


So I know that gays don't 'count' to you


but when you hear what these people say about gays

well, sorta sounds like they want to kill us and beat us up and put us in jail!


But you're rich and white and not gay, so hey, not your problem

222 justaminute  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 12:46:38pm

When Rick Perry spoke at that Christian Prayer Rally he had the perfect pitch and tone and knew all the dog whistles. It was unfortunately all to familiar to me. If he left politics he could go straight to the pulpit.

223 Kronocide  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 12:47:14pm

re: #209 Buck

Ya, their christian faith is equal to KKK. Very nice. Anyone see the harm?

It was an analogy, not a comparison. I think you're smart enough to know the difference so I'll chalk this up to intellectual dishonesty.

224 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 12:47:46pm

re: #209 Buck

Ya, their christian faith is equal to KKK. Very nice. Anyone see the harm?

More from the Kool Khrist Klan:

– African Americans are “cursed” by homosexuals: Willie Wooten published a book about the curse of the African American people. He wrote that their tolerance of “immorality” in the Democratic Party begets curses of “adultery, incest, children from incestuous union, children born out-of-wedlock, destroyed virginity, bestiality, homosexuality, lesbianism.”

225 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 12:48:09pm

re: #211 Alouette

the religious anti-Semitism, which hates Judaism

More commonly called anti-judaism.

226 wrenchwench  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 12:48:20pm

re: #217 Buck

I am speaking about generalizations. However what concerns them about Christian Zionism? What is their worse fear?

You are defending Rick Perry from generalizations that directly apply to him.

227 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 12:48:28pm

re: #217 Buck

More from the Kool Khrist Klan:

– Gay rights movement from the “pit of hell”: Dwight McKissic denounced comparisons between the civil rights movement and the gay rights movement because the latter is a “satanic anointment…inspired by the anti-Christ” that comes from the “pit of hell.” McKissic also said that “God uses natural disasters to punish evil,” pointing to Hurricane Katrina because “New Orleans flaunts sin.”

228 darthstar  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 12:48:32pm

re: #215 Alouette

Unless they were praying for the Jews to die.

Evangelical extremism is relatively new...really got a jump in the 70s during he "I found it" bumpersticker craze followed by Up With People. Then, in the 80s the 700 Club got big, and there were the "Promise Keepers" of the 90s and the Bush regime, now we've got the teabaggers...and people like Rick Perry who are taken seriously as political leaders...often for their religious views.

(this is all my personal opinion, and not based on any actual research)

229 Decatur Deb  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 12:48:35pm

re: #218 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

No, the anti-Jewish/anti-Judaism aspects of their "faith" is equal to the KKK.

Not only is it equal to the KKK, it is the same.

In the end the KKK and Perry's Christians wish to leave the same number of practicing Jews alive.

230 AK-47%  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 12:48:45pm

re: #217 Buck

I am speaking about generalizations. However what concerns them about Christian Zionism? What is their worse fear?

My worst fear is that these people will go about precipitating a major conflict in the Middle East in an attempt to kick-start the Second Coming.

They are not supporting israel out of a respect for Judaism or a concern for the well-being of its people. They would like to see them all converted, but failing that, would rather see them all destroyed. That is a disturbing proposition for any reasonable person of any faith or religions orientations.

231 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 12:49:20pm

re: #221 WindUpBird

Well, you're not gay

So I know that gays don't 'count' to you

but when you hear what these people say about gays

well, sorta sounds like they want to kill us and beat us up and put us in jail!

But you're rich and white and not gay, so hey, not your problem

Not all Christians want to do that. Not all Christians hate gay people. There are a lot of believing Christians here and Observant Jews who defend gay rights regularly.

You should tone that down.

232 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 12:51:16pm

re: #230 ralphieboy

My worst fear is that these people will go about precipitating a major conflict in the Middle East in an attempt to kick-start the Second Coming.

They are not supporting israel out of a respect for Judaism or a concern for the well-being of its people. They wouls like to see them all converted, and failing that, then destroyed. That is a disturbing proposition for any reasonable person of any faith or religions orientations.

I think there are people already doing that -- sorry, no link, I can't remember what I read that gave me that impression.

Yes, it is scary. Like the "Christians" in Uganda supporting the execution of LBGT.

People who give money to "Christian organizations" don't always know where that money is going. Some if it goes to these whackos.

233 makeitstop  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 12:51:22pm

re: #228 darthstar

Evangelical extremism is relatively new...really got a jump in the 70s during he "I found it" bumpersticker craze followed by Up With People.

Damn, I'd completely forgotten about those bumper stickers.

234 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 12:52:03pm

re: #231 LudwigVanQuixote

Not all Christians want to do that. Not all Christians hate gay people. There are a lot of believing Christians here and Observant Jews who defend gay rights regularly.

You should tone that down.

I think it's pretty clear to anyone in the thread, that I was specifically referring in context to the guys at Rick Perry's prayer rally 9_9

235 HappyWarrior  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 12:52:08pm

Shit even when I was what one would call a Christian, my support of Israel was based off the fact that Israel is a stable democracy. That's why we should support Israel not because of "Christian directives" and stuff like that.

236 wrenchwench  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 12:52:33pm

re: #231 LudwigVanQuixote

Not all Christians want to do that. Not all Christians hate gay people. There are a lot of believing Christians here and Observant Jews who defend gay rights regularly.

You should tone that down.

I don't think he needs to.

When he says "when you hear these people say", I think he's referring specifically to people who say those things. And his life might be on the line.

237 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 12:52:41pm

re: #233 makeitstop

Damn, I'd completely forgotten about those bumper stickers.

I went to HS with someone with that bumper sticker. He met some blonde/blue eyed girl and she took him to a revival. Married her, became a minister and last I heard is happy a shit.

He didn't push it on the rest of the group, luckily.

238 CuriousLurker  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 12:52:50pm

re: #211 Alouette

There are two kinds of "anti-Semitism"

There is the racial anti-Semitism, which hates the Jews because they supposedly belong to an inferior race, and there is the religious anti-Semitism, which hates Judaism. The second type of anti-Semitism (I prefer the term "Jew hatred" since "anti-Semitism" was a term made up by a racial Jew hater) also includes anti-Zionism and Jewish "self-hate"

Thanks for the clarification, I wasn't aware there was a difference.

239 Buck  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 12:53:33pm

re: #212 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

"As a Christian, I..."

No one made that up, Buck. It's a direct quote. Now read the teleprompter and tell us "it was taken out of context."

I have already explained that. You think he means end times, I think he means stand/support with good instead of evil.

240 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 12:53:46pm

re: #236 wrenchwench

I don't think he needs to.

When he says "when you hear these people say", I think he's referring specifically to people who say those things. And his life might be on the line.

Wow... the snarky remark is may you give all such broad brushes the benefit of the doubt.

The more meaningful remark is that I didn't read it that way and neither will many others.

241 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 12:53:51pm

re: #238 CuriousLurker

There are two kinds of "anti-Semitism"

There is the racial anti-Semitism, which hates the Jews because they supposedly belong to an inferior race, and there is the religious anti-Semitism, which hates Judaism. The second type of anti-Semitism (I prefer the term "Jew hatred" since "anti-Semitism" was a term made up by a racial Jew hater) also includes anti-Zionism and Jewish "self-hate"

Thanks for the clarification, I wasn't aware there was a difference.

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]
[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

242 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 12:53:56pm

As a Christian, I believe in the Gold Rule.

If my people had been persecuted, chased out, murdered, and otherwise just treated like less than humans, I would want others to support their right to their own homeland. A safe one, too.

243 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 12:53:56pm

re: #231 LudwigVanQuixote

in part:

TheCall, AFA, David Lane, David Barton, Bryan Fischer, John "Harry Potter will rape you" Hagee, Cindy Jacobs, Dwight McKissic

etc etc etc

244 Killgore Trout  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 12:54:48pm

Image: Cw2DP.jpg

245 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 12:55:08pm

re: #194 Alouette

Another thing is that these "messianics" (not to be confused with the Lubavitcher meshichisten who claim that the late Rebbe OB"M is Mashiach), when they do manage to snare a sucker convert, they wave him or her around like a big trophy, like this represents the "True Jews" and all the rest of us are just fake Jews, I guess. Holocaust survivors are worth extra points.

Supremacists make a habit of trotting out their token, handpicked minorities, and imbue them with validation, and credibility from their self-appointed position of authority.

From our corner, we call those who allow people to do this to them, "handkerchief heads".

246 Kronocide  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 12:55:33pm

re: #239 Buck

I have already explained that. You think he means end times, I think he means stand/support with good instead of evil.

No, it's pretty clear he supports Israel because he likes Seinfeld.

247 darthstar  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 12:55:43pm

re: #233 makeitstop

Damn, I'd completely forgotten about those bumper stickers.

Fortunately, they were quickly replaced by the "I seen 'em" stickers from the Olympia Beer ad campaign about "Artesians" who produced their artesian water...

248 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 12:55:46pm

re: #243 WindUpBird

in part:

TheCall, AFA, David Lane, David Barton, Bryan Fischer, John "Harry Potter will rape you" Hagee, Cindy Jacobs, Dwight McKissic

etc etc etc

As far as those cretins are concerned, you will never see me defend them and I have been writing about how awful such folks are since well before you joined this board.

I am just saying that your comments struck me as over broad - and for me to write that and not be a hypocrite, they really were.

249 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 12:57:28pm

re: #240 LudwigVanQuixote

Wow... the snarky remark is may you give all such broad brushes the benefit of the doubt.

The more meaningful remark is that I didn't read it that way and neither will many others.

when I say 'but when you hear what these people say about gays"


in a thread about Christian Extremists associated with Rick Perry


who constantly say insane and apocalyptic things about gay people (we kill birds and bring hurricanes by existing!)

you gotta get out your walking stick and your New Balance shoes and go on a very long walk to arrive the conclusion that I mean "all christians"

250 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 12:58:02pm

Golden rule. My brain shuts down in the afternoon.

You get my point. If you want to be able to be safe, you should want for others to be able to be safe.

251 Iwouldprefernotto  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 12:58:06pm

re: #208 WindUpBird

a question

I've got a lot of Jewish people here who are very concerned about (and disgusted with) Rick Perry and Christian Zionism

explain to me how you are more qualified than they are to speak about Christian Zionism

make me understand :D

I'm disgusted with any candidate that wants to force his religion on the country. Perry, Bachman, Palin... all want to do this. You would have to be blind to not see that this is their goal.

As far as Israel is concerned.....I've spent time there and know that the Isrealies can take care of themselves.

252 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 12:58:11pm

re: #231 LudwigVanQuixote

Not all Christians want to do that. Not all Christians hate gay people. There are a lot of believing Christians here and Observant Jews who defend gay rights regularly.

Muslims, too. In fact, some of all of the above are gay themselves.

You should tone that down.

I don't think so. He didn't say all Christians do or believe those things. The people WUB is talking about is a very specific group, and he's right to talk about it in the context of this thread.

253 wrenchwench  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 12:59:18pm

re: #240 LudwigVanQuixote

Wow... the snarky remark is may you give all such broad brushes the benefit of the doubt.

The more meaningful remark is that I didn't read it that way and neither will many others.

I did not have doubt.

I did not read it the way you did.

You push back when I say your rhetoric about the impending doom of global warming should be toned down. Now you're getting some.

Matter of opinion, I suppose.

254 Buck  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 1:01:25pm

re: #126 makeitstop

Obama was forced to renounce Wright and leave his church. If you remember, he ended up giving a major speech dealing specifically with his relationship to a member of the clergy

He supported Wright up to and until Wright came out as a raging anti-semite. You miss that point. Is it fair then to speculate that Obama is a raging anti semite?

And if you answer that is was fair to do that to Obama (which I'm sure you will), then why is it off-limits to speculate that Perry shares the same views as his preacher friends?

Be honest.

I don't consider Christian Zionism to be harmful to anyone. It is a belief. As a athiest I allow for people to have religious beliefs of all kind. Racism is another issue. Wright is a Racist. Obama denounced the racist comments.

Do you consider Christianity, or specifically Christian Zionist to be racist? Or just wrong?

255 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 1:03:06pm

re: #214 iossarian

Buck, they're talking about curing gay people.

You don't see a problem with that?

It is hateful to talk about hate groups' hate!

HATEFUL!!!

I hate it!

256 CuriousLurker  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 1:03:14pm

re: #241 000G

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]
[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

Thanks. The whole "spiritually dead" and "rebellion against God" thing gave me the creeps as we've seen plenty of examples here about what the Christian Right thinks should be done with others who they consider to be in "rebellion against God" (i.e. against Christianity), namely gays, liberals, secularists, Muslims. etc.

257 Gepetto  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 1:04:48pm

re: #119 WindUpBird

Christianity is about holy warzzz

kill the infidels, baby, save the earth for our white white children

yeah, because as we know,all Christians have white children. Sasha and Malia might disagree, as would millions of children worldwide.

258 Buck  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 1:05:14pm

re: #214 iossarian

Buck, they're talking about curing gay people.

You don't see a problem with that?

I am on record as being very pro gay. Even more than Obama.

Have we moved on now?

259 wrenchwench  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 1:06:06pm

re: #254 Buck

I don't consider Christian Zionism to be harmful to anyone.

Obviously you haven't looked at the link in #121 yet.

260 iossarian  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 1:06:39pm

re: #258 Buck

I am on record as being very pro gay. Even more than Obama.

And yet you are expending a great deal of effort defending Perry from charges of being in any way associated with people who think that gays can be cured of their sinful condition.

Bizarre.

261 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 1:06:57pm

re: #254 Buck

Do you consider Christianity, or specifically Christian Zionist to be racist? Or just wrong?

Don't try to move the goalposts -- no one here has accused either Christian Zionism or all of Christianity of being "racist". The issue is Rick Perry's insertion of his bigoted form of Christianity into his campaign.

Why do you defend people who cannot even stand to look at you? Weird mentality.

But yes, do obsess some more about Jeremiah Wright, after Sarah Palin sat in Wasilla Assembly of God for 20 years.

262 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 1:07:29pm

re: #253 wrenchwench

WTF? You have never commented on AGW stuff except supportively. You are clearly just trying to pick a fight.

However, I look forward to your scientific opinions on the matter if you have any. How exactly does for instance the USCGS report on climate effects on US agriculture need to be "toned down?"

263 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 1:07:51pm

re: #258 Buck

I am on record as being very pro gay.

Then stop defending antigay bigots.

You're not an ally if you do that, so don't say you are.

264 HappyWarrior  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 1:08:01pm

re: #121 Charles

Christian Zionist Agenda Exposed by NAR Apostle Don Finto at Rick Perry Event, and Few Noticed

Seems to me that Finto cares more about converting Jews to Christianity than actually letting them live their faith in peace. If they truly cared about the Jewish people, they would respect their choice of faith. My opinion at least.

265 wrenchwench  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 1:08:04pm

re: #262 LudwigVanQuixote

WTF? You have never commented on AGW stuff except supportively. You are clearly just trying to pick a fight.

However, I look forward to your scientific opinions on the matter if you have any. How exactly does for instance the USCGS report on climate effects on US agriculture need to be "toned down?"

Thanks for totally missing the point.

266 Buck  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 1:08:40pm

re: #259 wrenchwench

Obviously you haven't looked at the link in #121 yet.

Really? You think proselytizing is something new?

There are mormons at my door every second week. Doesn't mean shit.

267 goddamnedfrank  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 1:10:15pm

re: #104 zora

I never thought I would say this but "Buck is right". This is what Perry is referring to, imo.

not the same as end-times prophecy.

I wonder if Rick Perry tears out sections from the New Testament and refuses to recite or acknowledge them, being such a good Christian and all?

You suffered from your own countrymen the same things those churches suffered from the Jews, who killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets and also drove us out. They displease God and are hostile to all men in their effort to keep us from speaking to the Gentiles so that they may be saved. In this way they always heap up their sins to the limit. The wrath of God has come upon them at last.

1 Thessalonians 2:14-16

268 Buck  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 1:10:23pm

re: #263 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

Then stop defending antigay bigots.

You're not an ally if you do that, so don't say you are.

So you agree with and support absolutely everything Obama says and does? There is no room for any disagreement on any issue?

Robot.

269 wrenchwench  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 1:10:43pm

re: #266 Buck

Really? You think proselytizing is something new?

There are mormons at my door every second week. Doesn't mean shit.

Are you saying you have read the link at #121 and you still believe that Christian Zionism is harmful to no one?

270 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 1:10:56pm

re: #239 Buck

You think he means end times,

No, I did not say I think that, at all. I corrected your ignorant use of "end of times". It reveals you haven't the faintest idea what or who you are so defensive about.

Nowhere did Perry say anything about "standing with good over evil"; that's another invention.

271 albusteve  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 1:11:47pm

re: #265 wrenchwench

Thanks for totally missing the point.

he didn't

272 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 1:12:14pm

re: #270 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

No, I did not say I think that, at all. I corrected your ignorant use of "end of times". It reveals you haven't the faintest idea what or who you are so defensive about.

Nowhere did Perry say anything about "standing with good over evil"; that's another invention.

GET TRON

ALSO, GET THAT FLYNN GUY, HE KEEPS THROWING LASER FRISBEES AT MY RED DUDES

END OF LINE


/mastercontrolprogram out

273 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 1:13:05pm

re: #267 goddamnedfrank

I wonder if Rick Perry tears out sections from the New Testament and refuses to recite or acknowledge them, being such a good Christian and all?

If he did, he's in some fine company.

274 iossarian  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 1:13:15pm

re: #272 WindUpBird

LOL @ "END OF LINE"

275 justaminute  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 1:13:33pm

To bad you all can't hop on a plane to make it down south for Sunday services. I bet Sunday's sermon is going to be on this topic. The mega churches down here do love to televise their services. Maybe you can catch one.

276 wrenchwench  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 1:14:02pm

re: #271 albusteve

he didn't

Maybe you did.

277 Kragar  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 1:14:58pm

Texas GOP: 'Of Course This Is A War On Birth Control'

278 albusteve  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 1:15:00pm

re: #276 wrenchwench

Maybe you did.

no...he knows what you are referring to...we all do that have survived that stuff

279 makeitstop  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 1:15:11pm

re: #254 Buck

He supported Wright up to and until Wright came out as a raging anti-semite. You miss that point. Is it fair then to speculate that Obama is a raging anti semite?

Many on your side did exactly that. Go look at clips of Sean Hannity from around that time. Obama was given zero benefit of the doubt re Wright.

I don't consider Christian Zionism to be harmful to anyone. It is a belief. As a athiest I allow for people to have religious beliefs of all kind. Racism is another issue. Wright is a Racist. Obama denounced the racist comments.

I fully disagree. Christian Zionists see Israel as a means to an end - getting their asses to Heaven. It is a dangerous and malignant sect of Christianity, as are the Dominionists (who have also thrown in behind Perry).

Perry is a presidential candidate, and these people are whispering in his ear. He counts many of them as close advisors. How much sway will they hold in a Perry administration?

If that was a valid question for Obama due to his relationship with Wright (and I'll reiterate - he was hounded for weeks over it), then it is an equally valid question for Perry to answer.

Obama answered his question when pressed. Will Perry do the same?

Do you consider Christianity, or specifically Christian Zionist to be racist? Or just wrong?

280 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 1:15:11pm

re: #268 Buck

So you agree with and support absolutely everything Obama says and does? There is no room for any disagreement on any issue?

Robot.

confederate.

The conversation is not about you and your anti-Obama obsession. "Very pro gay", my aunt fanny...not when you support hate groups like the AFA/The Repsonse.

281 jamesfirecat  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 1:15:11pm

re: #254 Buck

As a athiest I allow for people to have religious beliefs of all kind.

Wait, earlier in the thread you said you were an old testament Jew.... I iz confulzeld.

282 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 1:16:31pm

re: #277 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Texas GOP: 'Of Course This Is A War On Birth Control'

his name is literally Wayne Christian

283 Buck  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 1:17:10pm

re: #275 justaminute

To bad you all can't hop on a plane to make it down south for Sunday services. I bet Sunday's sermon is going to be on this topic. The mega churches down here do love to televise their services. Maybe you can catch one.

And it would be fair to generalize about all muslims in the same way....right? Do you need links of that English undercover video form inside of a Mosque? Or the Saudi paid for material found in mosques in the US and Canada? Allowing all Muslims to be painted with that broad brush?

284 wrenchwench  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 1:17:37pm

Sorry Ludwig. Thanks to you and Charles and a few others, I have some understanding of the seriousness of AGW.

I also have some understanding of the seriousness of these bigots who hate gays.

Nobody should be asked to tone it down when they feel their life or the lives of others may be on the line.

Back to trying to get through to Buck.

After I do some important things in the local world.

285 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 1:18:18pm

re: #254 Buck

I don't consider Christian Zionism to be harmful to anyone. It is a belief. As a athiest I allow for people to have religious beliefs of all kind.

Theocratic policies do not belong in a secular government. An atheist understands this very basic premise of of our political system.

286 makeitstop  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 1:19:03pm

re: #281 jamesfirecat

Wait, earlier in the thread you said you were an old testament Jew... I iz confulzeld.

Yeah, I caught that, too. Odd.

287 iossarian  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 1:19:05pm

re: #283 Buck

And it would be fair to generalize about all muslims in the same way...right? Do you need links of that English undercover video form inside of a Mosque? Or the Saudi paid for material found in mosques in the US and Canada? Allowing all Muslims to be painted with that broad brush?

Buck, we are not generalizing about "Christians", we are generalizing about "Christians who attend prayer rallies at which homosexuality is vilified as a disease and the execution of innocent men is condoned".

288 MittDoesNotCompute  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 1:20:18pm

re: #18 Buck

As a christian he supports Israel for the same reason that any right thinking person does.
He supports the Jewish state. Not because he is hoping to hurry up the end of times. But for the same reason Bill Clinton did.

Even if Perry (or Palin or Bachmann or any of the other GOP hopefuls) doesn't subscribe to Christian Zionism, they're courting and playing to those who do in what they do and say, either on the campaign trail or in their official capacities (see: Perry's "prayer rally").

At best, it's cynical opportunism...at worst, it's a fucking disaster in the making, for us and for Israel.

289 Alexzander  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 1:20:30pm

re: #280 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

I normally love political threads like this but I am a bit too celebratory to get into it right now. A little sad however that I am going to have to shed some of my volunteer projects as I begin fulltime work.

OCIHACOSP:
Have you heard the track from Jay-Z and Kanye West's new album that samples (and autotunes) Nina Simone's "Feeling Good"? I know that sounds incredibly blasphemous but I think it works.

Jay-Z and Kanye West (Watch the Throne) - New Day

Youtube Video
290 Bulworth  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 1:20:43pm

I eagerly await the next David Brooks column lamenting the GOPteabag party's unwillingness to campaign from the "center"....

291 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 1:21:29pm

re: #283 Buck

And it would be fair to generalize about all muslims in the same way...right? Do you need links of that English undercover video form inside of a Mosque? Or the Saudi paid for material found in mosques in the US and Canada? Allowing all Muslims to be painted with that broad brush?

"Broad Brush" needs to be filed away in the cliché list. Thanks for demonstrating why.

No one is broad brushing "all christians" by talking about a very specific set of Christians.

292 Buck  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 1:21:34pm

re: #279 makeitstop

It is a dangerous and malignant sect of Christianity

OK, convince me. How is it dangerous? A bunch of people with a dumb idea. Do they plan of forcing conversions at the end of a rifle? Do they intend to say to Israel "no more support until you convert?" Do you hear them planning to build an atomic weapon and wipe Israel off the map? Are they proposing legislation anywhere that restricts Jews rights and freedoms?

In what way is Christian Zionists a threat to the Jews?

293 Alexzander  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 1:21:58pm

re: #284 wrenchwench

Nobody should be asked to tone it down when they feel their life or the lives of others may be on the line.
.

What if its a hardcore environmentalist or someone protesting an abortion center? Serious question.

294 Alexzander  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 1:22:52pm

re: #293 Alexzander

What if its a hardcore environmentalist or someone protesting an abortion center? Serious question.

And by hardcore environmentalist, I dont mean someone who believes in global warming. I mean someone who supports or participates in the Earth Liberation Front.

295 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 1:24:07pm

re: #292 Buck

OK, convince me.

Feh, why bother.

In what way is Christian Zionists a threat to the Jews?

Wrong question - why the overemotional defense of people who hate to see Jews coming?

296 Buck  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 1:24:39pm

re: #281 jamesfirecat

Wait, earlier in the thread you said you were an old testament Jew... I iz confulzeld.

I can be a Jew and an Atheist. I am a Jew. I was born a Jew. My father and mother were born Jews. And their mothers and fathers before them.

I attended Jewish School and learned Torah (what you call the old testament ).

And I don't believe in God. Haven't since I was 18.

297 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 1:24:46pm

re: #292 Buck

OK, convince me. How is it dangerous? A bunch of people with a dumb idea. Do they plan of forcing conversions at the end of a rifle? Do they intend to say to Israel "no more support until you convert?" Do you hear them planning to build an atomic weapon and wipe Israel off the map? Are they proposing legislation anywhere that restricts Jews rights and freedoms?

In what way is Christian Zionists a threat to the Jews?

I think many would pass legislation forcing conversion to Christianity if it were possible.

They have no respect for any belief system other than their own.

298 justaminute  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 1:25:08pm

re: #283 Buck

And it would be fair to generalize about all muslims in the same way...right? Do you need links of that English undercover video form inside of a Mosque? Or the Saudi paid for material found in mosques in the US and Canada? Allowing all Muslims to be painted with that broad brush?

Oh honey, their at my door once a month trying to save my Muslim husband. I am telling you the truth, if you don't want to hear it frankly I don't care. I left that stuff along time ago but my parents didn't. My father was best friends with the Preacher up until the Preacher's death last year. I'm the black sheep, not exactly black, but well tanned. I know what I talking about and I know exactly what Perry's talking about. Sorry for you on your trip down the Denial Riverl

299 iossarian  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 1:25:56pm

re: #292 Buck

In what way is Christian Zionists a threat to the Jews you and me?

- they won't let your daughter have an abortion, even if it's medically necessary
- they won't let your gay son have a normal, fulfilling relationship
- they won't do anything about catastrophic global warming
- etc. etc.

300 Buck  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 1:26:17pm

re: #298 justaminute

Oh honey, their at my door once a month trying to save my Muslim husband. I am telling you the truth, if you don't want to hear it frankly I don't care. I left that stuff along time ago but my parents didn't. My father was best friends with the Preacher up until the Preacher's death last year. I'm the black sheep, not exactly black, but well tanned. I know what I talking about and I know exactly what Perry's talking about. Sorry for you on your trip down the Denial Riverl

Yah, and the Mormons do the same thing around here. Nothing new.

Also no threat.

301 albusteve  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 1:26:52pm

re: #292 Buck

OK, convince me. How is it dangerous? A bunch of people with a dumb idea. Do they plan of forcing conversions at the end of a rifle? Do they intend to say to Israel "no more support until you convert?" Do you hear them planning to build an atomic weapon and wipe Israel off the map? Are they proposing legislation anywhere that restricts Jews rights and freedoms?

In what way is Christian Zionists a threat to the Jews?

how is it not dangerous to malign a select group of individuals....then legislate against their lifestyle and hound them relentlessly?...does the GOP mind it's own fucking business?

302 Buck  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 1:27:43pm

re: #299 iossarian

- they won't let your daughter have an abortion, even if it's medically necessary
- they won't let your gay son have a normal, fulfilling relationship
- they won't do anything about catastrophic global warming
- etc. etc.

The first two are false. The law trumps them any day and any night.

The third is just the stupidest thing I have ever heard.

303 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 1:27:47pm

re: #277 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Texas GOP: 'Of Course This Is A War On Birth Control'

grrrrrr!

304 albusteve  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 1:27:57pm

re: #301 albusteve

blew that post...I'm getting pissy

305 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 1:28:25pm

re: #289 Alexzander

I normally love political threads like this but I am a bit too celebratory to get into it right now. A little sad however that I am going to have to shed some of my volunteer projects as I begin fulltime work.

OCIHACOSP:
Have you heard the track from Jay-Z and Kanye West's new album that samples (and autotunes) Nina Simone's "Feeling Good"? I know that sounds incredibly blasphemous but I think it works.

Nah, it doesn't. Autotune is overused but can still be used creatively. And she's really great for remixing. Good track - thanks.

Have you heard Verve Remixed? There's a bit of Nina on there. "See Line Woman" is kind of an obvious choice for a remix.

Youtube Video
306 erik_t  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 1:28:38pm

re: #302 Buck

The first two are false. The law trumps them any day and any night.

The third is just the stupidest thing I have ever heard.

Rick Perry wants to lead the executive branch. This involves, generally, signing off on laws, which generally change the previously existing body of law.

307 iossarian  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 1:29:54pm

re: #302 Buck

The first two are false. The law trumps them any day and any night.

You are either entirely ignorant of the GOP's legislative program, or completely shameless in pretending that it doesn't exist.

The third is just the stupidest thing I have ever heard.

Really? So you think that the Christian Right in the US has a plan to deal with global warming? Care to share what it is?

308 jamesfirecat  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 1:30:03pm

re: #302 Buck

The first two are false. The law trumps them any day and any night.

The third is just the stupidest thing I have ever heard.

You seem to be missing how those people are striving to get themselves elected sot hat they can rewrite the law in their own mental image of how it should be.

309 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 1:30:13pm

re: #299 iossarian

- they won't let your daughter have an abortion, even if it's medically necessary
- they won't let your gay son have a normal, fulfilling relationship
- they won't do anything about catastrophic global warming
- etc. etc.

re: #302 Buck

The first two are false.

No, they are not.

And you vote for it.

310 Buck  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 1:30:25pm

re: #297 ggt

I think many would pass legislation forcing conversion to Christianity if it were possible.

They have no respect for any belief system other than their own.

Call me when they do, until then it is just a "you think" sort of thing. No different that the evil muslims want to enforce sharia law garbage.

311 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 1:30:56pm

I sometimes call myself an Agnostic Roman Catholic.

I don't doubt G-d. I doubt the Humans who administer the Church.

I just don't trust 'em.

312 Kragar  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 1:31:41pm

re: #311 ggt

I sometimes call myself an Agnostic Roman Catholic.

I don't doubt G-d. I doubt the Humans who administer the Church.

I just don't trust 'em.

I've got no problem with Jesus, but his fan club is full of assholes.

313 goddamnedfrank  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 1:31:52pm

When dominionists like Perry and Bachmann talk about "Israel" they're talking out of both sides of their mouth. They're happy to let people believe they mean the modern secular State of Israel, but their leaders state that the Church has taken over the biblical role of Israel:

Today in the Church there is a changing attitude toward Israel, which is attributed to to the teachings of Dominionists. One of the key doctrines of this movement is the claim that the Church is now Israel, heir to all of her promises, and that national Israel has been cut off from God, and has further no place in the prophetic scheme. The Bible, however, teaches just the opposite. God will never cast off Israel as the Prophet Jeremiah states: If the heavens can be measured and the foundations of the earth searched out below then I will also cast off all the offspring for Israel for all that they have done, declares the Lord (Jeremiah 31:37).

Speaking at Edmond near Oklahoma City on April 11, 1988, Rick Godwin, a popular Christian media speaker delivered the type of anti-Israel rhetoric that is becoming so typical today: They [national Israel] are not chosen, they are cursed!...Yes, and you hear Jerry Falwell and everybody else say the reason America's great is because America's blessed Israel. They sure have. Which Israel? "The" Israel -- the Church...That's the Israel of God, not that garlic one over on the Mediterranean Sea! (Thy Kingdom Come, Nov 87, pg3).

Earl Paulk states: "The hour has come for us to know...that the spirit of the antichrist is now at work in the world... through so-called Holy Spirit- filled teachers who say, 'If you bless national Israel, God will bless you.' Not only is this blatantly deceptive, it is not part of the new covenant at all!" (Earl Paulk, The Handwriting is on the Wall). Paulk obviously cares nothing about the words of Jeremiah with regard to the New Covenant for Israel, nor the Abrahamic Covenant which clearly states that God will bless those who bless Israel and curse those who curse Israel (Genesis 12:3).

314 jamesfirecat  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 1:32:24pm

re: #310 Buck

Call me when they do, until then it is just a "you think" sort of thing. No different that the evil muslims want to enforce sharia law garbage.

They already helped it happen in Uganda, and have you not been noticing all the bills put forward recently on the issue of abortion by the GOP?

315 iossarian  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 1:33:16pm

re: #314 jamesfirecat

They already helped it happen in Uganda, and have you not been noticing all the bills put forward recently on the issue of abortion by the GOP?

Quite so. Where do you go if you need an abortion in Kansas?

316 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 1:33:23pm

re: #310 Buck

Call me when they do, until then it is just a "you think" sort of thing. No different that the evil muslims want to enforce sharia law garbage.

They are no different that those who want Sharia Law. Which is not all Muslims anymore than it is all Christians who want to enforce their version of Theocracy on all of us.

Both extremes are real. In this country, right now, it is the Whacko Christians, not the Whacko Muslims who are a bigger threat.

317 albusteve  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 1:33:48pm

re: #310 Buck

Call me when they do, until then it is just a "you think" sort of thing. No different that the evil muslims want to enforce sharia law garbage.

what do you think of the GOP defunding Planned Parenthood and what is the background of that strategy?

318 Alexzander  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 1:34:45pm

re: #305 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

Nah, it doesn't. Autotune is overused but can still be used creatively. And she's really great for remixing. Good track - thanks.

Have you heard Verve Remixed? There's a bit of Nina on there. "See Line Woman" is kind of an obvious choice for a remix.

[Video]

First timing hearing that. As a flute player (Lulz) I could easily appreciate that one! Thanks! I think my partner is really going to love this one too actually.

319 Buck  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 1:35:46pm

re: #308 jamesfirecat

You seem to be missing how those people are striving to get themselves elected sot hat they can rewrite the law in their own mental image of how it should be.

You really think that these people are planning a coup of the constitution? You have to step back from that conspiracy theory. The communists are doing the same thing... or is that crazy?

I heard the same thing from liberals when George W Bush was running. It was dumb then, and it is dumb now.

320 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 1:36:25pm

re: #310 Buck

Call me when they do, until then it is just a "you think" sort of thing. No different that the evil muslims want to enforce sharia law garbage.

It's definitely different, if only because CZ Evangelicals are very up front about their political goals -- have been since the 1960s. Do you think Michele Bachmann, Bob McDonnell, David Barton, etc. just dropped out of the sky in the past 2 years?

But then, until today, you thought "Pastor Chuck" was some yahoo on youtube. So, you're not exactly a go-to on this topic.

Muslims aren't running for highest office, Muslims aren't packing into vigilante dress-up groups like tea parties, Muslims have nowhere near the physical numbers of CZ Evangelicals. Christian conservative bigots in the USA, otoh, have a very very very very long history of exactly this behavior.

321 iossarian  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 1:37:27pm

re: #319 Buck

You really think that these people are planning a coup of the constitution? You have to step back from that conspiracy theory. The communists are doing the same thing... or is that crazy?

The constitution! Buck - tell me where you would go in Kansas, if your daughter needed an abortion. Maybe you could use the constitution to get one!

Now tell me that the GOP doesn't want to roll that out to the rest of the country.

Oh, and on the global warming thing... got any details of that Christian Right plan to avert disaster?

322 jaunte  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 1:37:34pm

re: #319 Buck

Did you miss the Culberson story in post 53?

323 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 1:40:00pm

re: #314 jamesfirecat

They already helped it happen in Uganda, and have you not been noticing all the bills put forward recently on the issue of abortion by the GOP?

Same people.

Exact
same
people

324 jamesfirecat  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 1:40:05pm

re: #319 Buck

You really think that these people are planning a coup of the constitution? You have to step back from that conspiracy theory. The communists are doing the same thing... or is that crazy?

I heard the same thing from liberals when George W Bush was running. It was dumb then, and it is dumb now.

They aren't planning a coup, they're simply planning to take it one step at a time.

If you don't think the modern day GOP wants to (and in theory is quite possibly capable of given the current swingy nature of the supreme court) repeal Roe V Wade... then you must not be very familiar with the modern day GOP.

325 Buck  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 1:41:26pm

re: #320 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

It's definitely different, if only because CZ Evangelicals are very up front about their political goals -- have been since the 1960s. Do you think Michele Bachmann, Bob McDonnell, David Barton, etc. just dropped out of the sky in the past 2 years?

Right, cause no way Muslim idiots haven't been up front about their political goals.

But then, until today, you thought "Pastor Chuck" was some yahoo on youtube. So, you're not exactly a go-to on this topic.

Not true, I was trying to say "Pastor Chuck" wasn't Rick Perry.

Muslims aren't running for highest office, Muslims aren't packing into vigilante dress-up groups like tea parties, Muslims have nowhere near the physical numbers of CZ Evangelicals. Christian conservative bigots in the USA, otoh, have a very very very very long history of exactly this behavior.

You are saying your OPINION on the subject of Muslims and running for public office. Of course on that subject you can be level headed and see the nut case conspiracy theories for what they are. However the wack jobs certain could debate that with you. A muslim in the highest office of the land? No one is saying that right?

326 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 1:42:00pm

re: #319 Buck

You really think that these people are planning a coup of the constitution?

A coup of the constitution? Wordage, pls. No, not a "coup".

How many Amendments does Prick Perry want axed?

As an atheist, why doesn't the idea of a Christian theocrat government bother you?

327 wrenchwench  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 1:45:34pm

re: #293 Alexzander

What if its a hardcore environmentalist or someone protesting an abortion center? Serious question.

They can say whatever they want. There are a lot of things they can't do, like spike trees or block clinics.

328 makeitstop  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 1:45:34pm

re: #292 Buck

OK, convince me. How is it dangerous? A bunch of people with a dumb idea. Do they plan of forcing conversions at the end of a rifle? Do they intend to say to Israel "no more support until you convert?" Do you hear them planning to build an atomic weapon and wipe Israel off the map? Are they proposing legislation anywhere that restricts Jews rights and freedoms?

In what way is Christian Zionists a threat to the Jews?

CZs are associated with - there is plenty of overlap with - Dominionism.

Ever heard of 'Seven Mountains?' They believe that it is God's will that every aspect of American life - government, media, entertainment, business, education, everything - be taught and conducted from a Christian point of view, by Christians. No Jews or Muslims need apply.

They believe that they've got Dominion over the earth and all the animals and oil and everything, and it's theirs to use and do what ever, because they are Christians.

David Barton (Perry 'advisor') ascribes to it (link). John Hagee (Perry 'advisor') ascribes to it. Most of the participants in Perry's prayer rally do.

You may think it's some benign little sect that believes what they believe and nobody gets hurt. But they want to rule my country, literally, by the Bible.

That's dangerous in my eyes. What happens when their Christianist government bumps up against a country that they feel isn't sufficiently Christian? Holy war?

What if they get the idea that they can hasten the rapture by blowing up the planet? You would trust nut jobs like that with the mightiest arsenal on the planet?

Not me.

329 Buck  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 1:45:37pm

re: #321 iossarian

The constitution! Buck - tell me where you would go in Kansas, if your daughter needed an abortion. Maybe you could use the constitution to get one!

A quick google search. I phoned all three. They are expecting your call.

[Link: www.abortion.com...]

IF the laws in Kansas fail to meet the test of Roe v Wade (freedom of expression), then those laws will be struck down.

There is a system in place, and it will work.

330 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 1:45:48pm

re: #325 Buck

Right, cause no way Muslim idiots haven't been up front about their political goals.

Translator, pls. What did that mean?

My point was, the Christian theocrats of the type Perry is pandering to, and you're rushing to defend, have been up front about their political goals.

Don't think so? Go on you tube and watch some 700 Club footage from the 70s.

Not true, I was trying to say "Pastor Chuck" wasn't Rick Perry.

Until today, you didn't even know what a "Pastor Chuck" was.

You are saying your OPINION on the subject of Muslims and running for public office.

No, it's a fact -- your party has candidates who run on anti-Muslim platforms and not much else.

OTOH, when was the last time you saw a Muslim candidate for any office other than Keith Ellison? /rotfl

331 albusteve  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 1:45:59pm

re: #326 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

A coup of the constitution? Wordage, pls. No, not a "coup".

How many Amendments does Prick Perry want axed?

As an atheist, why doesn't the idea of a Christian theocrat government bother you?

the one single important question....this is the heart of the matter, the rest is fluff

332 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 1:46:21pm

Hmm. I see lots of people down there wrestling in the mud with Buck.

You're not going to convince him of anything. His sole goal here is to rile you up by poking the thread with a flame comment and then spend the next couple of hours dodging and goal-post shifting before laughing and going on his merry way.

It's a game to him, and you're playing along. If that is your goal as well, enjoy it. I will just head upthread and leave you to it.

333 Buck  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 1:47:02pm

re: #328 makeitstop

they want to rule my country, literally, by the Bible.

You really fear this? You really think that they could supplant the Constitution and rule the USA by the law of the Bible?

You are pretty far out there.

334 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 1:48:34pm

re: #332 oaktree

It's a game to him, and you're playing along.

The goal is to have fun with him, not convince him of anything. What would be the point in trying.

335 albusteve  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 1:48:45pm

re: #333 Buck

You really fear this? You really think that they could supplant the Constitution and rule the USA by the law of the Bible?

You are pretty far out there.

criminalizing gays is out there....you appear to be a party symp with wandering principles

336 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 1:49:42pm

re: #333 Buck

You really fear this?

I don't fear it, but I do know how serious they are about trying. Write it off if you want to, but don't expect others to join in the apathy.

337 Buck  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 1:50:31pm

re: #335 albusteve

criminalizing gays is out there...you appear to be a party symp with wandering principles

Has that happened in the USA? You want to point me to that GOP legislation?

I can find the Democrat legislation that does it.... but not the GOP administration legislation...

338 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 1:51:28pm

re: #337 Buck

Has that happened in the USA?

It used to be the law, but we smacked the conservatives down.

339 Buck  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 1:51:54pm

re: #338 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

It used to be the law, but we smacked the conservatives down.

Which law is that?

340 iossarian  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 1:53:57pm

re: #329 Buck

A quick google search. I phoned all three. They are expecting your call.

[Link: www.abortion.com...]

IF the laws in Kansas fail to meet the test of Roe v Wade (freedom of expression), then those laws will be struck down.

There is a system in place, and it will work.

Great example, although the "three" listings on that page are in fact one and the same, a clinic which the GOP would dearly love to shut down:

[Link: motherjones.com...]

Your assertion that the "system will work" is laughable, given that you support the politicians who are doing everything they can to undermine that system.

But hey, as long as your tax rate goes down a couple of points, it's all good, right?

I'm still waiting for details of the Christian Right's plan for dealing with global warming, BTW.

341 makeitstop  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 1:54:36pm

re: #333 Buck

You really fear this? You really think that they could supplant the Constitution and rule the USA by the law of the Bible?

With a president who thinks like them and a Congress who would follow him out of blind obedience, what makes you think they couldn't do it?

WTF do you think these people have been working on for the past 40 years?

You are pretty far out there.

And you are willfully ignorant, Buck. Stay that way for all I care.

342 jaunte  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 1:54:37pm

re: #337 Buck

Has that happened in the USA? You want to point me to that GOP legislation?.

It's in a lot of GOP platforms.

343 albusteve  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 1:54:48pm

re: #337 Buck

Has that happened in the USA? You want to point me to that GOP legislation?

I can find the Democrat legislation that does it... but not the GOP administration legislation...

you and your party suck...bunch of self righteous assholes, and it will come back to haunt you if I have any say...play stupid with somebody else

344 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 1:55:24pm

re: #339 Buck

Which law is that?

Do you deny the existence of sodomy laws, and their unequal targeting of same sex activity?

Really? /rotfl

Better question for you: name the SCOTUS ruling that struck them down. Extra credit: name the state of the originating case.

345 iossarian  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 1:58:05pm

re: #337 Buck

Has that happened in the USA? You want to point me to that GOP legislation?

I can find the Democrat legislation that does it... but not the GOP administration legislation...

I have to go now, Buck, but seriously, if you think the Democrats are somehow the anti-gay party, either in isolation or in comparison with the GOP, then there is no longer any point in discussing this with you anyway. That is pure self-delusion right there, if you really think that, had more people voted GOP over the past 20 years, gay rights would have advanced faster than they have.

Incredible.

346 tnguitarist  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 1:58:32pm

re: #69 Lidane

By reading your posts.

This made me laugh.

347 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 1:58:35pm

re: #344 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

Do you deny the existence of sodomy laws, and their unequal targeting of same sex activity?

Really? /rotfl

Better question for you: name the SCOTUS ruling that struck them down. Extra credit: name the state of the originating case.

Bonus question: name the current governor of that state that wants those sodomy laws reinstated.

348 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 1:59:17pm

re: #347 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

Bonus question: name the current governor of that state that wants those sodomy laws reinstated.

NO MORE rent boys --what will they do?

349 Buck  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 2:01:42pm

re: #341 makeitstop

With a president who thinks like them and a Congress who would follow him out of blind obedience, what makes you think they couldn't do it?

WTF do you think these people have been working on for the past 40 years?

And you are willfully ignorant, Buck. Stay that way for all I care.

Oh sure... with a president who thinks like them, and both houses that would vote blindly, and a supreme court that was also blind to the existing laws and 75% of the state legislatures who are also willing to blindly follow him (or her)....

Then sure of course....


Everyone feel that way? You really worried that could happen? Seriously?

350 Sheila Broflovski  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 2:02:27pm

re: #296 Buck

I can be a Jew and an Atheist. I am a Jew. I was born a Jew. My father and mother were born Jews. And their mothers and fathers before them.

I attended Jewish School and learned Torah (what you call the old testament ).

And I don't believe in God. Haven't since I was 18.

Oh please spare me the Ass A Chew crap.

351 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 2:02:56pm

re: #333 Buck

You really fear this? You really think that they could supplant the Constitution and rule the USA by the law of the Bible?

You are pretty far out there.

Boatloads of local and state GOP politicians already do this and have been for decades in the good old USA. You must be mighty ignorant to not know this.

352 wrenchwench  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 2:04:32pm

re: #349 Buck

Oh sure... with a president who thinks like them, and both houses that would vote blindly, and a supreme court that was also blind to the existing laws and 75% of the state legislatures who are also willing to blindly follow him (or her)...

Then sure of course...

Everyone feel that way? You really worried that could happen? Seriously?

I have no doubt it could happen -- if more people were as blind as you.

353 Buck  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 2:04:37pm

re: #345 iossarian

Actually gay rights advanced faster under GWB than any previous administration. There were more same sex marriages in the USA during the Bush Administration than all the other previous administrations combined.

354 RadicalModerate  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 2:05:20pm

re: #299 iossarian

- they won't let your daughter have an abortion, even if it's medically necessary
- they won't let your gay son have a normal, fulfilling relationship
- they won't do anything about catastrophic global warming
- etc. etc.

re: #302 Buck

The first two are false. The law trumps them any day and any night.

The third is just the stupidest thing I have ever heard.

#1 - Status: TRUE.
Until courts threw them out for being blatantly unconstitutional, this is EXACTLY what happened in the states of South Dakota, and Kansas - with South Dakota going as far as saying that shooting of abortion providers was justifiable homicide, and no criminal prosecution would be pursued in those cases. Also, the push to redefine rape, and reclassification of almost all forms of female birth control as abortion is stronger than ever. We have covered all of this stuff extensively on LGF during the past eight months or so.

#2 - Status: TRUE.
There have been multiple calls for overturning Lawrence vs Texas and re-criminalizing homosexuality - with some legislators stating that they want to see persons who have performed same-sex marriage ceremonies charged with felonies - not to mention their wide support for "curing" homosexuals by reparation therapy, forcibly so, if necessary.

#3 - Status: TRUE
Honestly, the evidence of this one is just so staggeringly overwhelming, I don't see how even you can doubt it, as it is discussed on almost a daily basis here.

355 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 2:06:15pm

re: #353 Buck

Actually gay rights advanced faster under GWB than any previous administration. There were more same sex marriages in the USA during the Bush Administration than all the other previous administrations combined.

Because of civil rights activism shoving aside the GOP and conservatives, not because of the Shrubya Administration.

Now, read the teleprompter and tell me that our families were also more stable under slavery. e_e

356 tnguitarist  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 2:06:39pm

You will not find a finer specimen of modernus republicanus than you see commenting on this page.

357 jamesfirecat  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 2:08:01pm

re: #353 Buck

Actually gay rights advanced faster under GWB than any previous administration. There were more same sex marriages in the USA during the Bush Administration than all the other previous administrations combined.

Shame he never bothered to do something on the federal level while he was in power rather than just being able to get credit for what grassroots people were doing.

Like the way that Obama has helped get Don't Ask Don't Tell repealed.

358 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 2:08:41pm

re: #353 Buck

Actually gay rights advanced faster under GWB than any previous administration. There were more same sex marriages in the USA during the Bush Administration than all the other previous administrations combined.

No thanks to GWB. Are you seriously ignorant of his record on the Federal Marriage Amendment issue?

359 BongCrodny  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 2:08:49pm

re: #353 Buck

Actually gay rights advanced faster under GWB than any previous administration. There were more same sex marriages in the USA during the Bush Administration than all the other previous administrations combined.

You are such a tool.

360 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 2:10:42pm

re: #353 Buck

Care to answer?

361 Buck  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 2:10:51pm

re: #354 RadicalModerate

"Until courts threw them out for being blatantly unconstitutional", and "multiple calls for overturning" are the key statements in your post.

AND if you want to blame Global Warming on Christian Zionists, you can, but I am not going to join you.

362 tnguitarist  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 2:11:04pm

re: #359 BongCrodny

You are such a tool.

ad hominem name calling!!

363 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 2:12:02pm

re: #361 Buck

AND if you want to blame Global Warming on Christian Zionists, you can, but I am not going to join you.

Nobody is blaming them for GW, get real.

No wonder you guys are so easily duped by confidence people like Palin and Perry.

You deserve to be manipulated and ripped off by them.

364 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 2:12:08pm

Have a great afternoon all!

365 Buck  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 2:13:01pm

re: #360 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

Care to answer?

What? Lawrence v. Texas? They were struck down. The system works.

The only person arrested for sodomy that I can remember recently was DSK.

366 Buck  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 2:13:59pm

re: #358 000G

No thanks to GWB. Are you seriously ignorant of his record on the Federal Marriage Amendment issue?

Are you ignorant of Clinton's record?

367 darthstar  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 2:15:01pm

One final thought on Perry...he is saying that he doesn't support Israel by choice. Someone needs to point that out.

368 Buck  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 2:15:54pm

re: #367 darthstar

One final thought on Perry...he is saying that he doesn't support Israel by choice. Someone needs to point that out.

That is simply not true. You are parsing what he said.

369 tnguitarist  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 2:16:15pm

re: #366 Buck

Are you ignorant of Clinton's record?

If you want to drag out the Clinton boogeyman, proceed to the next post...

370 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 2:16:23pm

re: #366 Buck

Are you ignorant of Clinton's record?

Again with the tu quoque. I point out that your praise of GWB on gay rights issue does not hold and you defer to Clinton. Okay, let's play your favorite game, Buck, dodgeball: Yes, Clinton's signing off on DOMA sucked. Will you now admit that you talked complete and utter bullshit when you praised GWB for his record on gay rights?

371 albusteve  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 2:17:44pm

re: #368 Buck

That is simply not true. You are parsing what he said.

god dictates what Perry thinks...parse that

372 darthstar  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 2:18:07pm

re: #368 Buck

That is simply not true. You are parsing what he said.

As a Christian I have a clear directive to support Israel, from my perspective its pretty easy both as an American and a Christian. I am going to stand with Israel.
No parsing necessary...sure as fuck sounds like contrition to me. Fucker's following orders from some imaginary being.

373 tnguitarist  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 2:18:46pm

re: #371 albusteve

god dictates what Perry thinks...parse that

zing!

374 darthstar  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 2:19:07pm

re: #366 Buck

Are you ignorant of Clinton's record?

You and your two cock.

375 jamesfirecat  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 2:19:26pm

re: #366 Buck

Are you ignorant of Clinton's record?

Clinton passed Don't Ask don't tell, yes.

But as horrible as it was, what you don't seem to get Buck is that DADT was at the time a good thing.

It'd be like if before Black people were allowed to serve along white people in the army openly, they could only be allowed to serve in integrated units if they wore full body costumes that made it impossible to tell what race they were so that white people didn't have to worry about serving alongside colors.

That's a horrible racist policy, and yet it is still less horrible than refusing outright to allow black people to serve in the military alongside white people.

DADT was a good thing when it came out as it was a step forward toward the policy of simple acceptance which Obama helped bring into being.

376 darthstar  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 2:21:21pm

re: #375 jamesfirecat

DADT was a compromise with Republicans who wanted to purge the military of suspected homosexuals. It protected gay servicemen and women to a point, but it was flawed, and after Clinton left office, a more conservative approach to gays in the military became the law of the land. Purging happened.

Now it's irrelevant. We now don't question a person's sexuality as a qualification for military service.

377 albusteve  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 2:24:25pm

re: #372 darthstar

As a Christian I have a clear directive to support Israel, from my perspective its pretty easy both as an American and a Christian. I am going to stand with Israel.
No parsing necessary...sure as fuck sounds like contrition to me. Fucker's following orders from some imaginary being.

I support Israel because they are bad ass underdogs, have what's right on their side, and the women are world class hot

378 Buck  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 2:25:35pm

re: #375 jamesfirecat

Clinton passed Don't Ask don't tell, yes.

How did you go from Federal Marriage legislation to DADT?

Was the Defense of Marriage Act also horrible and a good thing?

379 BongCrodny  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 2:26:49pm

re: #362 tnguitarist

ad hominem name calling!!

I know, I know. But The Derp is strong in that one, and I lost my composure.

380 darthstar  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 2:26:52pm

re: #377 albusteve

I support Israel because they are bad ass underdogs, have what's right on their side, and the women are world class hot

Bad ass underdogs with nukes and a US supplied military that is comparable, if not superior to, that of its neighbors who are, ironically, larger nations.

There are hot women everywhere on the planet.

381 SpaceJesus  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 2:26:54pm

dude if you guys just convert all the jews to mega church christianity, then i will come back to earth and we can party at my dad's house

382 tnguitarist  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 2:29:51pm

re: #379 BongCrodny

I know, I know. But The Derp is strong in that one, and I lost my composure.

I was being facetious. Look upthread.

383 jamesfirecat  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 2:32:36pm

re: #378 Buck

How did you go from Federal Marriage legislation to DADT?

Was the Defense of Marriage Act also horrible and a good thing?

You only said Clinton's record on gays, no mention of the Defense of Marriage Act pack in post 366.

At least on my first read through I probably was a bit mental blinders to tell the truth (since it was mentioned in the post you were replying to)

As for the DoMA do I think it was a horrible think but a step forward? Of course not, I stand with the same conclusion that Obama does on it that it shouldn't be defended and should be struck down as soon as legally possible.

384 BongCrodny  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 2:34:21pm

re: #382 tnguitarist

I was being facetious. Look upthread.

Do I have to? There's a lot of Buck up there.

385 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 2:37:01pm

re: #365 Buck

What? Lawrence v. Texas? They were struck down. The system works.

If the system works it's because we force it to, despite the agendas of the dumb confederates you vote for.

The one you're defending at present wants Lawrence vs Texas overturned and sodmy laws reinstated.

Just like a dutiful, dumb bigot socon.

386 darthstar  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 2:39:56pm

re: #381 SpaceJesus

dude if you guys just convert all the jews to mega church christianity, then i will come back to earth and we can party at my dad's house

Is he out of town again?

387 Gus  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 2:39:59pm

I've run out of words. These people -- Rick Perry especially -- are from out of space. But that's probably an insult to aliens.

388 darthstar  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 2:41:47pm

re: #381 SpaceJesus

dude if you guys just convert all the jews to mega church christianity, then i will come back to earth and we can party at my dad's house

On second thought, you probably shouldn't...if he catches you throwing another party like that last one he's likely to crucify you.

389 Buck  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 2:44:16pm

re: #383 jamesfirecat

You only said Clinton's record on gay marriage, no mention of the Defense of Marriage Act pack in post 366.

As for the DoMA do I think it was a horrible think but a step forward? Of course not, I stand with the same conclusion that Obama does on it that it shouldn't be defended and should be struck down as soon as legally possible.

His signing Defense of Marriage Act into law IS Clinton's record on gay marriage. And it is not defensible...

“I believe that marriage is between a man and a woman, for me, as a Christian, it is also a sacred union.” - Obama.

OMG! He is taking orders on the subject from an imaginary being!!

390 Buck  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 2:47:12pm

re: #385 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

If the system works it's because we force it to, despite the agendas of the dumb confederates you vote for.

The one you're defending at present wants Lawrence vs Texas overturned and sodmy laws reinstated.

Just like a dutiful, dumb bigot socon.

Well, force is the wrong word, you don't have to place a gun to anyones head. The system works, and unless you really believe that Perry has a plan to throw away the constitution and the supreme court... you really don't have to worry.

391 jamesfirecat  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 2:49:22pm

re: #389 Buck

His signing Defense of Marriage Act into law IS Clinton's record on gay marriage. And it is not defensible...

“I believe that marriage is between a man and a woman, for me, as a Christian, it is also a sacred union.” - Obama.

OMG! He is taking orders on the subject from an imaginary being!!

The difference between the Obama and Rick Perry is that only one of them thinks that there personal beliefs should also by default be the lay of the land.

What with that entire separation of church and state thing....

392 RadicalModerate  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 2:58:37pm

re: #389 Buck

His signing Defense of Marriage Act into law IS Clinton's record on gay marriage. And it is not defensible...

“I believe that marriage is between a man and a woman, for me, as a Christian, it is also a sacred union.” - Obama.

OMG! He is taking orders on the subject from an imaginary being!!

Two things - First, Clinton has heavily moderated his views on same-sex marriage, and in fact today supports full legalization of it.
[Link: www.thenation.com...]

Second, and more importantly. Every piece of legislation that President Obama has proposed and supported has been for the expansion of gay rights, instead of restriction of them. Be it for anti-discrimination legislation regarding healthcare, the repeal of DADT, or for his directing the Justice Department to no longer prosecute DOMA cases, I think his record is very clear. And it doesn't involve his personal views influencing the law of the land.

393 Buck  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 2:58:43pm

re: #391 jamesfirecat

The difference between the Obama and Rick Perry is that only one of them thinks that there personal beliefs should also by default be the lay of the land.

What with that entire separation of church and state thing...

I know that you THINK that, but it is just as silly as the Obama is a secret Muslim conspiracy. I know that around here it is normal to put words and motives into the mouths of conservatives. But you should oppose it out of fairness. You don't like it when it is done to Democrats.

Any bill or law put forward by Perry (or anyone else) has to pass the muster of the Constitution and Supreme Court. Just like Obama Care will have to go through that filter, so will a Republican Presidents bill.

That is the system you should be proud of.

I am not saying you should not oppose Perry. But I suggest you should do so based on what he really says and does, and not wild conspiracies.

394 Obdicut  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 3:02:29pm

re: #393 Buck

The fact that the terrible bills the GOP supports get struck down over and over again by the courts does not mean it is a 'conspiracy' to believe that they want those bills to actually succeed.

Weirdest claim you've made in awhile.

395 Obdicut  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 3:03:01pm

re: #389 Buck

Do you notice how Obama keeps his personal beliefs separate from his political actions?

Or does that just pass you by?

396 Buck  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 3:03:13pm

re: #392 RadicalModerate

And it doesn't involve his personal views influencing the law of the land.

So his personal views on gay rights is different than his record?

I don't get it.

However yes, you can see the laws evolving. Actually that is my point. It just isn't a Red v Blue thing. Both sides have people on both sides. The courts will force the issue.... but it takes time.

397 jaunte  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 3:03:18pm

Christian Conservative Must Replace Jewish TX House Speaker Because Christians "Do The Best Jobs Over All"

It's not a law or a bill, though.

398 RadicalModerate  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 3:03:51pm

re: #393 Buck

I oppose Rick Perry (and say this as a resident of Texas) because it is my firm belief - and facts back me up on this - that he is a Dominionist, neo-Confederate, revisionist, political cronyist with leanings toward white nationalism.

Maybe you find these are reasons you like Rick Perry and defend him so vehemently , perhaps?

399 Buck  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 3:04:58pm

re: #397 jaunte

Christian Conservative Must Replace Jewish TX House Speaker Because Christians "Do The Best Jobs Over All"

It's not a law or a bill, though.

Right... and you want me to find you anti semite democrats? Seriously?

400 darthstar  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 3:05:09pm

re: #393 Buck

I know that you THINK that, but it is just as silly as the Obama is a secret Muslim conspiracy. I know that around here it is normal to put words and motives into the mouths of conservatives, which is why I wear a ball gag in my mouth and butt plug when I am online. But you should oppose it out of fairness. You don't like it when it is done to Democrats.

You really should be more careful what you share with the general public.

401 jaunte  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 3:05:35pm

re: #399 Buck

Sure, knock yourself out.

402 jamesfirecat  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 3:06:38pm

re: #393 Buck

I know that you THINK that, but it is just as silly as the Obama is a secret Muslim conspiracy. I know that around here it is normal to put words and motives into the mouths of conservatives. But you should oppose it out of fairness. You don't like it when it is done to Democrats.

Any bill or law put forward by Perry (or anyone else) has to pass the muster of the Constitution and Supreme Court. Just like Obama Care will have to go through that filter, so will a Republican Presidents bill.

That is the system you should be proud of.

I am not saying you should not oppose Perry. But I suggest you should do so based on what he really says and does, and not wild conspiracies.

Okay lets judge Rick Perry based on what he says...

Here he is comparing Homosexuality to Alcoholism given his analogy evidently if you're a homosexual you should just remain celibate your entire life rather than following your natural instincts.

Also I'm not proud of a system where every single bill needs 60 votes to pass the senate that's a sign of dysfunction to me thank you very much.

403 Buck  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 3:06:57pm

re: #401 jaunte

Sure, knock yourself out.

Former Democratic Rep. Cynthia McKinney?

404 Obdicut  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 3:07:21pm

re: #403 Buck

Try doing it without the word 'former' being involved.

405 darthstar  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 3:07:31pm

re: #403 Buck

Former Democratic Rep. Cynthia McKinney?

She's just a crazy lady...and while she has participated in flotillas, that's a political protest, not a religious attack.

406 Obdicut  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 3:07:50pm

re: #402 jamesfirecat

I think you mean remain celibate, or Perry is a lot more forward-thinking on gay rights than it appears.

407 SpaceJesus  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 3:08:08pm

re: #399 Buck

Can you find me a dem party leader who hates Jews?

408 Buck  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 3:09:33pm

re: #402 jamesfirecat

Okay lets judge Rick Perry based on what he says...

Good. That is a good one.


Then drop the big scary theocrat who only supports Israel "for the wrong reasons".

409 Obdicut  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 3:10:59pm

re: #408 Buck

So as someone who is 'pro-gay', how do you feel about Perry's idiotic, warped, dangerous statement that homosexuality is like alcoholism?

410 darthstar  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 3:11:03pm

re: #408 Buck

Then drop the big scary theocrat who only supports Israel "for the wrong reasons".

"Because god told him to" is the wrong reason.

411 Buck  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 3:11:12pm

re: #405 darthstar

She's just a crazy lady..

And John Cook is a crazy man.

412 jaunte  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 3:11:25pm

Bigotry and the Texas Speaker’s Race II

“Straus is going down in Jesus name.”

413 Buck  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 3:12:00pm

re: #410 darthstar

"Because god told him to" is the wrong reason.

I don't think you have that. It is an example of putting word and motives into someones mouth.

414 RadicalModerate  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 3:12:31pm

re: #403 Buck

Former Democratic Rep. Cynthia McKinney?

That word "former" applies to both her status as a representative, as well as a member of the Democratic Party.

What next? The claim that the modern Democratic Party is the party of the KKK?

415 Buck  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 3:12:46pm

re: #409 Obdicut

So as someone who is 'pro-gay', how do you feel about Perry's idiotic, warped, dangerous statement that homosexuality is like alcoholism?

I think he is wrong.

416 darthstar  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 3:13:20pm

re: #414 RadicalModerate

That word "former" applies to both her status as a representative, as well as a member of the Democratic Party.

What next? The claim that the modern Democratic Party is the party of the KKK?

Robert Byrd!
OMFGZ!!! (AND HE'S STILL DEAD!!!)

417 jamesfirecat  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 3:14:47pm

re: #408 Buck

Good. That is a good one.

Then drop the big scary theocrat who only supports Israel "for the wrong reasons".

I haven't said anything on the subject of why Rick Perry supports Israel on this thread (or in the past to the best of my memory) Buck.

I did touch some on the abortion issue but hey lets let Rick Perry Speak for himself again...

[Link: www.ontheissues.org...]

Protect the unborn via sonogram requirement. (Feb 2011)
The right to privacy is fictitious. (Nov 2010)
Abortion only for rape, incest, or maternal health. (Jun 2002)
Supports prohibiting human embryonic stem cell research. (Aug 2010)
Opposes federal abortion funding. (Aug 2010)


So yeah....

418 Obdicut  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 3:14:58pm

re: #415 Buck

I think he is wrong.

Great! Glad to hear it. Now, why do you think he holds that position, Buck? Why do you think he's so adamantly against anyone thinking that a gay lifestyle is an okay, tolerable, acceptable thing?

I can broaden the question, since this bigotry is rife throughout the entire GOP. What do you think is the core of the GOP bigotry against gays?

419 SpaceJesus  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 3:15:29pm

Supporting Israel either in whole or in part because you believe it will usher in the chaos, war and destruction of the Christian myth of Armageddon, is fucking insane and gross.

420 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 3:16:27pm

re: #390 Buck

Well, force is the wrong word, you don't have to place a gun to anyones head. The system works,

The system works, despite social conservatives like the people you defend, yes.

It's that way because we cram it down your states rights throats. /

and unless you really believe that Perry has a plan to throw away the constitution and the supreme court... you really don't have to worry.

Rotfl do I look worried about those filthy confederates?

I hope you guys do make Perry the nominee. You have no way of unseating the incumbent with him.

421 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 3:17:12pm

re: #415 Buck

I think he is wrong.

lmao

422 RadicalModerate  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 3:17:34pm

re: #396 Buck

So his personal views on gay rights is different than his record?

I don't get it.

No comment by me necessary here. The statement itself speaks volumes.

423 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 3:18:14pm

re: #403 Buck

Former Democratic Rep. Cynthia McKinney?

e_e

You forgot Robert Byrd.

424 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 3:20:47pm

re: #403 Buck

Former Democratic Rep. Cynthia McKinney?

Bad choice, since she pulls Rick Perrys/Sarah Palins on antisemitism all the time. She doesn't make the statements herself, but uses the blindingly obvious dogwhistles, and lets everyone else around her make the actual utterances.

Fail. Try again.

425 wrenchwench  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 3:22:15pm

re: #393 Buck

But I suggest you should do so based on what he really says and does

Why do you get to ignore your own advice?

426 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 3:40:56pm

re: #414 RadicalModerate

That word "former" applies to both her status as a representative, as well as a member of the Democratic Party.

What next? The claim that the modern Democratic Party is the party of the KKK?

Yes! 95% of black voters have been hoodwinked by the promise of government freebies into voting for the Klan Plantation since the 60s!

The only smart blacks who know what's good for them vote with today's Confederate flag waving tea partiers in the GOP. And, well, we know how many smart blacks in the world there are!

/confederate

427 Severus  Tue, Sep 20, 2011 6:27:38pm

As president of the United States Rick Perry would have aprimary obligation to the US, not Israel. Sometimes the best thing for our country will not be in Israel's best interest. If he or any other candidate can not reconcile this then they should nto be running.

428 Buck  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 8:20:00am

re: #427 Severus

As president of the United States Rick Perry would have aprimary obligation to the US, not Israel. Sometimes the best thing for our country will not be in Israel's best interest. If he or any other candidate can not reconcile this then they should nto be running.

Standing with and supporting Israel will ALWAYS be in the best interest of the United States. Of course, you may not think so, and I expect that from the many on the left.

Creating a "Dual Loyalty" smear is offensive, and make no mistake about it, that is how your remark sounds.

429 Obdicut  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 8:47:40am

re: #428 Buck

No, sometimes supporting Israel isn't in the US's best interests. That doesn't matter, they deserve our support as a democracy facing dictators, oligarchs, and theocrats.

Even if it's not demonstrably in our best interests, we should support Israel against destruction.

Hey, you never got around to explaining where you think the rampant anti-gay agenda of the GOP comes from. Care to give it a shot? Or did you want to dodge that?

430 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 8:56:22am

re: #428 Buck

Standing with and supporting Israel will ALWAYS be in the best interest of the United States.

Ridiculous statement. The country is our friend and ally, but friends and allies sometimes have differing needs. Israel isn't some static entity that never changes, and neither are we. You should find a better word than "ALWAYS".

431 Buck  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 9:11:47am

re: #429 Obdicut

Hey, you never got around to explaining where you think the rampant anti-gay agenda of the GOP comes from. Care to give it a shot? Or did you want to dodge that?

You want me to explain why there are people who are anti gay? Maybe you want me to explain racism to you. Maybe you want me to explain why there is Misogyny in the world.

It is a MYTH that only conservatives are anti-gay. It is further a myth that all conservatives are anti-gay.

The results of Prop 9 prove that.

Is there a lot that needs to be done to eliminate ALL discrimination EVERYWHERE? Of course. I am part of that fight.

This discussion is not about gay rights, it is about Rick Perry and how his comment is being twisted to mean that he supports Israel for all the wrong reasons. I welcome his support. I believe he is sincere.

I also caution the left that the Zionists have a "Dual Loyalty" problem is going to bite them bad. My opinion....

432 Buck  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 9:13:36am

re: #430 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

Ridiculous statement. The country is our friend and ally, but friends and allies sometimes have differing needs. Israel isn't some static entity that never changes, and neither are we. You should find a better word than "ALWAYS".

You should be more loyal to your friends.

433 Buck  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 9:14:22am

re: #429 Obdicut

No, sometimes supporting Israel isn't in the US's best interests.

And when is that pray tell?

434 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 9:15:12am

re: #432 Buck

You should be more loyal to your friends.

^Pie-in-the-sky thinking. This is diplomacy, not hopscotch on the playground during recess.

435 Buck  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 9:19:44am

re: #434 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

^Pie-in-the-sky thinking. This is diplomacy, not hopscotch on the playground during recess.

Sorry, the survival of Israel is not diplomacy to me. Yes, I understand that to many on the left it is, but for me it is a life or death issue. There is no "well maybe we will and maybe we wont" option when it comes to standing with Israel against the evil that is planning to destroy her.

436 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 9:20:42am

re: #431 Buck

It is a MYTH that only conservatives are anti-gay. It is further a myth that all conservatives are anti-gay.

You are on the right track, but you are going the wrong way.

No one has claimed only conservatives are anti-gay or that all conservatives are anti-gay.

The GOP campaigns, runs, and so often wins on antigay ballot measures, designed to bring conservative bigots out of the woodwork on polling day.

You do not see those measures coming from Democrats or liberals, though you will see bigotes social conservative D's voting for them. There are reasons for that. What do you think some of those reasons might be?

The results of Prop 9 prove that.

Lol "prop 9". What "results" are you talking about? This ought to be good...

437 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 9:24:32am

re: #435 Buck

Sorry, the survival of Israel is not diplomacy to me. Yes, I understand that to many on the left it is, but for me it is a life or death issue. There is no "well maybe we will and maybe we wont" option when it comes to standing with Israel against the evil that is planning to destroy her.

Straw man -- who has said that?

"Stand with Israel" has been reduced to a mindless, repeated cliché, thanks to folks like you.

Scapegoat "the left" for your personal betrayal and abandonment issues if you wish, but not everyone holds your absolutist/"ALWAYS" views.

438 Buck  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 9:27:33am

Fine, Sorry, I meant Prop 8. My spell checker didn't pick it up.

439 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 9:31:43am

re: #431 Buck

This discussion is not about gay rights,

It's about gay rights, Israel, and a lot more.

it is about Rick Perry and how his comment is being twisted to mean that he supports Israel for all the wrong reasons.

No, it's about Rick Perry and his theocratic aims. Your supposed supporters think you're spiritually dead. Those aims are not limited to his stance on Israel.

For instance, he wants those sodomy laws back, which you claim the system worked to overturn. /rotfl

440 Buck  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 9:32:18am
Israel isn't some static entity that never changes, and neither are we.

No, sometimes supporting Israel isn't in the US's best interests.

Maybe we will and maybe we wont....

441 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 9:32:22am

re: #438 Buck

Fine, Sorry, I meant Prop 8. My spell checker didn't pick it up.

Doesn't matter; it was a ridiculous argument, anyway.

442 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 9:36:06am

re: #440 Buck

Maybe we will and maybe we wont...

That's your perception, but it's a factual statement. It's not a country that never changes; no country is. Your personal ideals about it might never change and that's fine. But we do no base our foreign policy on your ideals.

This should not have to be explained to rational adults.

443 Obdicut  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 9:40:41am

re: #431 Buck

It is a MYTH that only conservatives are anti-gay. It is further a myth that all conservatives are anti-gay.

I didn't claim they were. I asked you about the rampant bigotry in the GOP about gay people, and its source. You're refusing to answer. The GOP has actual party planks that are bigoted against gays, many, many elected leaders-- like Perry-- have said vigorously, blatantly anti-gay things.

Do you think there's any religious aspect to the hatred of gays in the GOP?

444 Obdicut  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 9:42:00am

re: #433 Buck

And when is that pray tell?

When it costs us more to defend Israel than it gains us.

As I said, it shouldn't even factor into it. Israel deserves our support as a democracy, moreover, a democracy fighting tyrants.

I'm not sure what you're not getting about this. I'm saying it doesn't matter if it's in our interests to defend Israel, it's simply the morally right thing to do.

445 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 9:46:59am

re: #431 Buck

You want me to explain why there are people who are anti gay? Maybe you want me to explain racism to you. Maybe you want me to explain why there is Misogyny in the world.

What does any of that have to do with the antigay stance of the GOP?

(BTW, you did not ask me, but no, I do not want you trying to explain any social issues. You seem befuddled enough as it is, when it comes to certain factions of Christianity and their social/political goals.)

446 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 9:47:10am

re: #444 Obdicut

When it costs us more to defend Israel than it gains us.

Another reason for why it is so important for the USA to become independent of Arab oil.

Another thing the GOP is undermining.

447 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 9:54:06am

re: #446 000G

Another reason for why it is so important for the USA to become independent of Arab oil.

Another thing the GOP is undermining.

They also so luvv themselves some Arab world dictators. Yet they scream creeping shariah over here, and run candidates on no-Muslims platforms.

Fox Victory Mosque dupes.

448 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 9:56:42am

re: #444 Obdicut

When it costs us more to defend Israel than it gains us.

As I said, it shouldn't even factor into it. Israel deserves our support as a democracy, moreover, a democracy fighting tyrants.

I'm not sure what you're not getting about this. I'm saying it doesn't matter if it's in our interests to defend Israel, it's simply the morally right thing to do.

Sorry Obdi, I'm afraid that will never pass the litmus test. If you don't say the word ALWAYS, you're obviously a leftist that doesn't care whether Israel survives or not! is seeking to destroy her!!

449 Buck  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 10:06:30am

re: #446 000G

Another reason for why it is so important for the USA to become independent of Arab oil.

Another thing the GOP is undermining.

The USA could be independent of Arab oil by getting more of it's oil from Canada and other 'ethical' sources.

And that the Left is undermining.

450 Buck  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 10:12:21am

re: #444 Obdicut

When it costs us more to defend Israel than it gains us.

As I said, it shouldn't even factor into it. Israel deserves our support as a democracy, moreover, a democracy fighting tyrants.

I'm not sure what you're not getting about this. I'm saying it doesn't matter if it's in our interests to defend Israel, it's simply the morally right thing to do.

Again we seem to have a language difference. I am simply stating that it's in our interests to support Israel, because it will always be the morally right thing to do.

You are very good at saying two different things so that you can get credit for both.

(supporting Israel isn't in the US's best interests) when it costs us more to defend Israel than it gains us.

Is fine for you. And not completely unexpected.

451 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 10:16:16am

re: #449 Buck

The USA could be independent of Arab oil by getting more of it's oil from Canada and other 'ethical' sources.

Bullshit. There is no way Canada and other 'ethical' sources could make up for the US giving up on Arab oil. Your numbers don't add up, ideologue.

And that the Left is undermining.

What are you even talking about? "The Left" is undermining any actual efforts of the US to shifting their oil imports to Canada from the Arab countries? What are you smoking?

452 Decatur Deb  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 10:16:23am

re: #450 Buck

Again we seem to have a language difference. I am simply stating that it's in our interests to support Israel, because it will always be the morally right thing to do.

..snip.

I think I've found your problem, there.

453 Obdicut  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 10:28:27am

re: #450 Buck

Again we seem to have a language difference. I am simply stating that it's in our interests to support Israel, because it will always be the morally right thing to do.

That's not what the phrase 'in our interests' means. You really ought to publish a dictionary of tortured definitions.

You are very good at saying two different things so that you can get credit for both.

Well, that's a lie.

Please point out the two different things I'm saying.

You can't, because I'm not, and you're simply lying.

454 Buck  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 10:31:35am

re: #451 000G

Bullshit. There is no way Canada and other 'ethical' sources could make up for the US giving up on Arab oil. Your numbers don't add up, ideologue.

You are wrong. Simply ignorant of the truth.
There are proven oil reserves in the USA, Canada, Brazil, Mexico, and other countries that could within a couple of years completely replace "Arab oil".

It is a fact.

What are you even talking about? "The Left" is undermining any actual efforts of the US to shifting their oil imports to Canada from the Arab countries? What are you smoking?

I will give you one example, but there are many others.

Massive protest at White House against Alberta tar sands pipeline
Campaigners say the two-week protest will be the biggest green civil disobedience in a generation

455 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 10:31:59am

re: #450 Buck

Again we seem to have a language difference. I am simply stating that it's in our interests to support Israel, because it will always be the morally right thing to do.

No thing will "always" be anything. We do not live in a sterile world of absolutes based on your personal fantasies.

456 Obdicut  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 10:33:39am

re: #454 Buck

Why are you ignoring that A) Oil is fungible, so it doesn't matter where we purchase our oil from-- when we consume oil, we raise the price of it across the globe. So, the Arab dictatorships, tyrannies, and theocrats profit by our use of oil. It does not matter one whit the source of it.

and that B) AGW is occurring, so continuing to use fossil fuels cannot possibly be the final answer anyway? We need to be transitioning, hardcore, to clean energy.

I forget, are you an AGW denier?

457 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 10:36:10am

re: #454 Buck

You are wrong. Simply ignorant of the truth.
There are proven oil reserves in the USA, Canada, Brazil, Mexico, and other countries that could within a couple of years completely replace "Arab oil".

It is a fact.

Prove it.

I will give you one example, but there are many others.

Massive protest at White House against Alberta tar sands pipeline
Campaigners say the two-week protest will be the biggest green civil disobedience in a generation

This proves your point how?

458 Buck  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 10:39:54am

re: #453 Obdicut

That's not what the phrase 'in our interests' means. You really ought to publish a dictionary of tortured definitions.

Well, that's a lie.

Please point out the two different things I'm saying.

You can't, because I'm not, and you're simply lying.

I did already do that. However. I suspect that you are going to stick to the most narrow definition of "interests" that you can.

Is it always in your best interest to do the morally right thing?

If you read all of your statements, you will see that you are really saying that it is morally right to always stand with Israel, unless you can't profit (costs more than you get) from it.

That is NOT what America is about. Carrying over two million tons of supplies in 270,000 flights into Berlin was not in your narrow definition of "best interests", but it was the right thing to do. Yes, my definition of "best interests" includes even when it costs more that you get.

459 Obdicut  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 10:43:28am

re: #458 Buck

I did already do that. However. I suspect that you are going to stick to the most narrow definition of "interests" that you can.

I'm using the most common one, which is that it's in one's practical intersts. Because that's what the phrase means.

If you read all of your statements, you will see that you are really saying that it is morally right to always stand with Israel, unless you can't profit (costs more than you get) from it.

No, I'm saying it is always morally right to stand with Israel. I'm saying that sometimes it won't profit us to do so, and that's fine. I am NOT saying that it's morally right to stand with Israel unless you can't profit. I am saying the opposite of that. And I'm saying it very, very clearly, in a way that can't possibly be misunderstood.

Even when it is not profitable, it is morally right to stand with Israel.

All you're actually saying is that to you, "best interests" includes doing things because they're morally right. FIne, if you want to use that definition, sure. Then there's no difference between my opinion and your on Israel; you and i both feel that it's morally right to defend Israel.

So what's your beef? Where's my lie? Where are the two different things I'm saying? You made an accusation, have the balls to back it up.

460 Buck  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 10:47:31am

re: #456 Obdicut

It does not matter one whit the source of it.

I am ignoring nothing. The discussion is about how the Arab nations can seemingly hold the USA hostage with oil. Does the source of the oil matter then?

Let someone else bankroll Saudi Arabia’s oppression of women. Let our conscience be clear. It does matter.

AGW is occurring, so continuing to use fossil fuels cannot possibly be the final answer anyway?

I am not talking about a final answer. No one is.

461 Buck  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 10:55:15am

re: #459 Obdicut

So what's your beef? Where's my lie? Where are the two different things I'm saying? You made an accusation, have the balls to back it up.

I didn't say you lied.

You did say "(supporting Israel isn't in the US's best interests) when it costs us more to defend Israel than it gains us." And you did say "Even when it is not profitable, it is morally right to stand with Israel."

Would you also say Even when it is not profitable, it is in the US's best interest to stand with Israel?

If we agree that it is always in your best interest to do the morally right thing, then we have no contradiction. If you think otherwise, then you have a contradiction.

462 Interesting Times  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 10:55:25am

re: #456 Obdicut

I forget, are you an AGW denier?

Personally, I could never forget derpitude of this depth:

Hurray for the live saving CO2! Hurray! From the mouths of babes come the knowledge that the earth needs CO2 in the atmosphere for life to survive.

The AGW deniers have been saying just the opposite.

Or, wait...they were saying that CO2 was a good thing in the atmosphere...

Who was saying that there should be none? I am confused.

463 Obdicut  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 10:58:43am

re: #460 Buck

I am ignoring nothing. The discussion is about how the Arab nations can seemingly hold the USA hostage with oil. Does the source of the oil matter then?

No. The US isn't held hostage by it, it's just a huge constraint. Even if we did magically source all our oil from Canada (though in reality the amount of environmental devastation that would cause would be appalling), then the rest of the world-- China, in particular-- would be getting none of that oil, and all the oil from the Middle East. So, the stability of the Middle East would be far more important to them. So, they would aggressively be facing off against us in the Middle East, and would ally themselves with the Arab states against Israel. As long as oil is important and the Arab states have it, they have prominence, they have power, and they can threaten Israel.

et someone else bankroll Saudi Arabia’s oppression of women. Let our conscience be clear. It does matter.

But you're just lying to yourself. You're claiming there's a moral good in not buying a fungible commodity, even though you won't cost them any money by doing it. We will still be bankrolling them-- by keeping the demand for oil high. It is the rate of consumption, not the source, that matters.

I fully agree that we should not be allies with the Saudis. That's why we need to develop next-gen energy tech and sell it widely, to relegate remove the power that the Arab states have by holding that oil.

464 Obdicut  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 11:01:13am

re: #461 Buck

I didn't say you lied.

You did say "(supporting Israel isn't in the US's best interests) when it costs us more to defend Israel than it gains us." And you did say "Even when it is not profitable, it is morally right to stand with Israel."

Would you also say Even when it is not profitable, it is in the US's best interest to stand with Israel

Dude, we established we're using different definitions for that term. To me, and to most people who use it, it means practical interests, not moral and ethical ones. You're using it to mean both.

So I think it's in the US's moral and ethical interests to protect Israel because it is a democracy.

So no, I have not said two things. I have said one thing-- it is moral to defend Israel even when it is not practically beneficial to do so.

If we agree that it is always in your best interest to do the morally right thing, then we have no contradiction. If you think otherwise, then you have a contradiction.

No, we just have you defining words in your private Buck language, and no actual argument, just bullshit semantics.

And you, of course, accusing me of saying two things so I can get praise for both, which is an accusation you can't substantiate.

A lie.

465 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 11:01:38am

re: #456 Obdicut

re: #461 Buck

Toldja you wouldn't pass the absolutist litmus test, Obdi.

But then, this is a person who thinks the people who consider him spiritually dead are allies. No absolutes are applied to them when they say shit like that's; it's excused or just ignored, outright.

Cons are masters at this kind of self-loathing.

466 Obdicut  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 11:09:11am

re: #443 Obdicut

Just a reminder, Buck, that you're dodging my question in 443. You haven't answered if you think there's a religious source to the GOP bigotry towards gays.

467 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 11:09:20am

re: #465 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

shit like that's;

that

468 Buck  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 11:10:44am

re: #457 000G

Prove it.

Many experts including CEO of Shell Canada, Clive Mather estimate it to actually be 2 Trillion barrels or more, essentially 8 times more than Saudi Arabia.

U.S. oil consumption is approximately 21,000,000 barrels per day, with domestic production of 6 million barrels per day.

Canada today provides approx 2 million barrels per day. Almost twice what is imported from Saudi Arabia.

If you add up the "unethical" sources you get approx. 2.7 million barrels per day. Can the USA (drill baby drill) and Canada provide that?

Canada, domestic production, Mexico, Brazil.... all ethical sources, not being used to their full potential.

This proves your point how?

It was an example of what you asked for. "The Left" undermining actual efforts of the US to shifting their oil imports to Canada from the Arab countries.

469 Obdicut  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 11:12:42am

re: #468 Buck

Since the shift wouldn't result in less money for the Arab nations, what the fuck would it matter?

They'd still be just as rich and powerful.

470 Buck  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 11:19:57am

re: #469 Obdicut

Since the shift wouldn't result in less money for the Arab nations, what the fuck would it matter?

They'd still be just as rich and powerful.

But they would not hold the economy of the USA hostage. You (and others) have eluded that they do.

IF the goal is to reduce the American economies dependence on "arab oil" then shifting imports of oil from those sources would achieve that goal.

If the goal is to make them less rich and less powerful then shifting imports of oil from those sources would not achieve that goal.

I thought the goal was reducing the American economies dependence on "arab oil". AND yes there are other things we can do, but they would take a much longer time, and are less a sure thing.

Increasing the domestic production is also good for the economy for other reasons. A domestic oil producing company can't just up and move an oil well and take the jobs to china like a television factory could.

471 Buck  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 11:24:00am

re: #465 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

this is a person who thinks the people who consider him spiritually dead are allies.

I really don't give a shit about what anyone thinks about my spirit. Dead or otherwise. My priorities are very much different than that.

472 Obdicut  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 11:24:57am

re: #470 Buck

But they would not hold the economy of the USA hostage. You (and others) have eluded that they do.

You mean eluded. And no, that's another lie. I haven't said anything of the sort. Please show where I have.

IF the goal is to reduce the American economies dependence on "arab oil" then shifting imports of oil from those sources would achieve that goal.

That's not the goal, as I've repeatedly explained. As long as our consumption of oil remains what it is, the Arab states will be megawealthy from the oil that they have. We enrich them by our use of oil no matter where it is from, since oil is fungible.

If the goal is to make them less rich and less powerful then shifting imports of oil from those sources would not achieve that goal.

Why on earth would that not be the goal?

I thought the goal was reducing the American economies dependence on "arab oil".

You were wrong.

Increasing the domestic production is also good for the economy for other reasons.

That's nice, Buck. You never answered if you're an AGW denier.

You've also dodged the question about the GOP's anti-gay bigotry and whether it has religious roots or not. For quite a long time now.

So, let's see, lies, dodging, trying to paint others as not being really anti-Israel. Just go into your poor-persecuted-me mode and I'll have Buck bingo.

473 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 11:29:24am

re: #468 Buck

Canada, domestic production, Mexico, Brazil... all ethical sources, not being used to their full potential.

You are not answering what I was asking. Again, you claimed:

There are proven oil reserves in the USA, Canada, Brazil, Mexico, and other countries that could within a couple of years completely replace "Arab oil".

You provided no evidence for this. Rambling about reserves does nothing to prove your claim: The part about the actual replacement "within a couple of years" is nothing but wishful magical thinking.

It was an example of what you asked for. "The Left" undermining actual efforts of the US to shifting their oil imports to Canada from the Arab countries.

The story you linked did not mention Arab oil once. Where do you get your assumptions from that this would have resulted in less Arab oil being imported? You could just as well argue that it would allow the US to import more oil overall for cheaper prices. You proved nothing.

474 Interesting Times  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 11:30:18am

Everything you’ve heard about the tar sands and energy security is wrong

Because Middle Eastern and Venezuelan oil is so much cheaper to produce and more plentiful than remaining domestic oil reserves, those countries can almost always outcompete domestic U.S. competitors and still maintain their enormous profit margins and high levels of production. Saudi and Iraqi oil, for instance, costs just $4-$6 per barrel to produce with another $2-$3 tacked on for transportation costs (costs are similar for Iranian oil). Production costs for tar-sands oil clock in at a minimum of $30 per barrel; costs for other domestic sources are similar.

475 Buck  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 11:41:59am

re: #472 Obdicut

You mean eluded. And no, that's another lie. I haven't said anything of the sort. Please show where I have.

And I said eluded....

However...

the US deals dimplomatically (sic) with regimes it would otherwise have nothing to do with because of oil.

and

in order to be able to fully support Israel, we need to change away from an oil-based economy.

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

That's not the goal,

Well that is the discussion I am having. This is what started my discussion.

#446

Another reason for why it is so important for the USA to become independent of Arab oil.

Maybe you hijacked it and was talking about something else entirely?

476 Buck  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 11:46:35am

re: #474 publicityStunted

Everything you’ve heard about the tar sands and energy security is wrong

The cost to the consumer is the same. The hit on profit is to the companies producing it.

Even if it did... would you be willing to pay more for oil that does not fund terrorism? Would you be willing to pay more rather than bankroll Saudi Arabia’s oppression of women?

477 Obdicut  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 11:50:21am

re: #475 Buck

Ah, so if you say I 'alluded' (please note the spelling) to something, you don't have to show that i did. You just get to make up whatever the fuck you want.

Brilliant.

Feel free to answer any of the questions you've dodged.

478 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 12:00:45pm

re: #471 Buck

I really don't give a shit about what anyone thinks about my spirit. Dead or otherwise. My priorities are very much different than that.

No normal person should give a shit what those dumb bigots think about anything, normal people don't. We all have our priorities. When someone tells me they want to repair me by forcing me to be like them, though, that tells me something about their motives.

They tell this to Jews and they tell this to Blacks who will NEVER vote for them, they tell this to gays, and Natives who don't permit them to cram their version of xianity down their throats. Throw in with the people who hate you

Thank gd I don't ever have to be so selfloathing iconfederates think thatabout kind ofof person isshould an ally.-if you like, though.it's your right.

479 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 12:06:53pm

re: #478 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

Thank gd I don't ever have to be so selfloathing iconfederates think thatabout kind ofof person isshould an ally.-if you like, though.it's your right.

Haha smartphone autocorrect fail, missed little pencil window.

Should read:

Throw in with the people who hate you if you like, that's your right.

Thank gd I don't ever have to be so self-loathing like a confederate, who thinks that kind of person is an ally.

480 Buck  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 12:10:46pm

re: #477 Obdicut

Ah, so if you say I 'alluded' (please note the spelling) to something, you don't have to show that i did. You just get to make up whatever the fuck you want.

Brilliant.

Feel free to answer any of the questions you've dodged.

and you feel free to correct my spelling.

I have not dodged ANY questions. At least I have tried not to.

You said the things I quote you with. You are the one who is dodging the meaning of them.
You also said:

I don't actually think recognizing it as Jerusalem alone would do much of anything. I think it'd piss off the Arab nations and achieve nothing else. They might retaliate. The part that ends in economic disaster is if the US fully allies with Israel.

You really think that it doesn't sound like the US is NOT fully allied with Israel because of a fear of retaliation from "Arab nations"?

What kind of retaliation?

"the US deals dimplomatically (sic) with regimes it would otherwise have nothing to do with because of oil."

Because of oil.

There is no other another form of retaliation other than oil policy that the "Arab nations" have that would cause economic disaster in the USA.


You said those things, and a lot of people here agree with you.

There is 100 years of proven reserves of oil in the hands of Ethical countries. It only takes the will to shift the reliance of the west from unethical sources.

481 Buck  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 12:13:05pm

re: #479 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

I am Jewish. A lot of people have been trying to convert me and my people for more than 1000 years. Sometimes by force, and sometimes by talking. I don't fear the talking.

482 Obdicut  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 12:16:12pm

re: #480 Buck

I have not dodged ANY questions. At least I have tried not to.

Two easy ones that you have dodged:

A) Whether you're an AGW denier.

B) Whether you think the anti-gay bigotry in the GOP has a source in religion.

You really think that it doesn't sound like the US is NOT fully allied with Israel because of a fear of retaliation from "Arab nations"?

Um, recognizing Jerusalem isn't fully allying ourselves with Israel. Signing a mutual defense treaty is. Something I'd like very much for us to do, by the way.

Because of oil.

There is no other another form of retaliation other than oil policy that the "Arab nations" have that would cause economic disaster in the USA.

No, because of oil, they have power, and we need to deal with countries that have power. You can't just ignore them. We didn't ignore the Soviet Union. It makes no sense to. You always have to deal with those with power.

So, take away their power, and you no longer have to have diplomatic interest in them.

Get it?

There is 100 years of proven reserves of oil in the hands of Ethical countries. It only takes the will to shift the reliance of the west from unethical sources.

But it doesn't matter, because it still gives the Arab countries wealth and power.

Why don't you want to reduce their power, Buck?

483 Buck  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 12:28:43pm

re: #482 Obdicut

Why don't you want to reduce their power, Buck?

I don't believe there is anyway to reduce their power, if you equate power with oil or money. But I do believe I can reduce their influence on my economy and therefore reduce your fear of their retaliation regarding support for Israel.

A) Whether you're an AGW denier.

You never actually asked it, but just said it.
However it is a stupid question that is not relevant to the discussion in anyway. And it would allow you to steer the conversation away from the actual subject and onto one that has been discussed to death around here.

Whether you think the anti-gay bigotry in the GOP has a source in religion.

You never actually asked that. You asked a loaded "when did you stop beating your wife" question when you asked "What do you think is the core of the GOP bigotry against gays?"

AND I did answer it. #431 Once again you didn't get the answer you wanted.

484 Obdicut  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 12:31:34pm

re: #483 Buck

I don't believe there is anyway to reduce their power, if you equate power with oil or money. But I do believe I can reduce their influence on my economy.

So you just don't believe alternative energy exists, or what?

It is a stupid question that is not relevant to the discussion in anyway. And it would allow you to steer the conversation away from the actual subject and onto one that has been discussed to death around here.

Thank you for admitting you're dodging it.

AND I did answer it. #431 Once again you didn't get the answer you wanted.

Well, your answer is a non-answer, pretending that anti-gay bigotry is no more represented in the GOP than it is anywhere else. This is so obviously incorrect it's kind of funny. The GOP are the party that passes bills to try to stop gay people from adopting, marrying, etc. Some conservative democrats take part-- but the majority of the GOP not only does, but they have anti-gay party planks.

So, with that in mind, do you think the anti-gay bigotry in the GOP-- like their party plank of denying them the right to marriage and fighting the repeal fo DADT-- has a religious source, or not?

485 Interesting Times  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 12:33:00pm

re: #482 Obdicut

Not sure how many countries are supposed to be in that "ethical" category, but North America only holds 5% of the world's proven oil reserves.

Another thing to consider is that oil companies are transnational - country borders mean little to them, as long as there's drilling to be had - witness the recent deal between Exxon and Russia, giving Russia access to American drilling sites in the Gulf!

Hey, do we consider Putin's Russia an "ethical oil" source? 9_9

486 Obdicut  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 12:40:42pm

re: #485 publicityStunted

Well, yeah, I mean it's a given that Buck's bullshitting about the amount of oil. That's clear to everyone.

Or rather, someone told him that once, or he read it once somewhere, and accepted it uncritically because it fits in with his worldview.

And yeah, there's no way to prevent US companies from selling their oil abroad. To do so would be effectively nationalizing them.

487 Buck  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 12:42:00pm

re: #485 publicityStunted

Not sure how many countries are in that "ethical" category, but North America only holds 5% of the world's proven oil reserves.

What does the percentage of the world's proven oil reserve have to mean? Maybe 5% is really a lot of oil...

I am pointing out your use of stats fail.

If you get me your address I will send you a copy of "Ethical Oil: The Case for Canada's Oil Sands".

488 Buck  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 12:50:34pm

re: #484 Obdicut

So, with that in mind, do you think the anti-gay bigotry in the GOP-- like their party plank of denying them the right to marriage and fighting the repeal fo DADT-- has a religious source, or not?

For some it is religious. For some it is cultural, some it is pandering, and for some it is an 'ick' factor. I don't really think the source needs to be classified. I actually think that trying to pigeon hole the source is both a waste of time, and has the ring of excusing it.

You can call this a non-answer as well. However it is my answer. Like it or not.

489 Buck  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 12:55:26pm

re: #486 Obdicut

And yeah, there's no way to prevent US companies from selling their oil abroad. To do so would be effectively nationalizing them.

And that is not true on many levels. First no one is suggesting that. However if necessary, and example could be that tax laws could be written to encourage domestic sales of domestic oil, without nationalizing anything.

490 Buck  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 1:25:52pm

re: #484 Obdicut

So you just don't believe alternative energy exists, or what?

Maybe you can detail how one would get the entire world onto an alternative energy source , and what the time frame would be. More money for companies like Solyndra?

Yes, I believe alternative energy exists, which does not mean I believe there is anyway to reduce the Saudi's power (under your definition of power) in the world. I believe all that can be done is to reduce their power over some parts of the world, not the entire world.

491 Obdicut  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 3:20:59pm

re: #488 Buck

Wow. The roots of bigotry aren't important to you? Okay.

Sheesh. There's honest and there's too honest.

492 Obdicut  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 3:22:36pm

re: #490 Buck

We spend tons of money in research, just as we do whenver we want to move forwards. And we put pigovian taxes on oil and coal and other harmful fuels, to impel the switch away.

It's not like this is a new concept. Tons has been written on it.

Yes, I believe alternative energy exists, which does not mean I believe there is anyway to reduce the Saudi's power (under your definition of power) in the world.

My definition of power relates to them having shitloads of money from oil sales. If we take away that money by making oil much less valuable, we take away their power.

You don't believe in what about that, exactly?

493 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 5:00:27pm

re: #481 Buck

I am Jewish. A lot of people have been trying to convert me and my people for more than 1000 years. Sometimes by force, and sometimes by talking. I don't fear the talking.

Are you gay?

Is your boyfriend the Straw Man? Because you can't seem to live without him.

Who here has claimed you personally are supposed to fear "talking", or "fear" anything, at alll? Not being afraid of someone bigoted against you is quite different from joining in with them, and defending their bigotry. Ask me how I know.

494 Severus  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 5:02:29pm

Buck, unfortunately I have to disagree with you. Israel may have aright to exist, but our strategic interests in the mid east actually lay with the people who sell us oil. Strategically Israel is practically irrelevant to our economy other than as an outlet for selling military hardware. Is everyone who you do not agree with automatically a lefty liberal socialist anti=american Israel hating foe, Sorry that's not the case. I just think our country shoudl come first.

495 Obdicut  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 5:32:43pm

re: #494 Severus

But we should stand with Israel, because it is a democracy.

496 Buck  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 5:46:45pm

re: #494 Severus

Strategically Israel is practically irrelevant to our economy other than as an outlet for selling military hardware.

That is simply not true.


"Israel is a major player in the high tech world. People in high tech are very aware that Israel - compared to its small size - has some amazing technological achievements. There is a greater concentration of talented high tech manpower here in comparison to other countries - almost to the extent of Silicon Valley." -Bill Gates

"Israel is a hotbed of new raw technology and scientific developments."
Matthew I. Growney, Managing Director, Motorola Ventures

Israel is a world leader in agriculture, water and solar technology (among many others), which are desperately needed worldwide due to drought, famine, water shortages, natural disasters, etc.

I could go on, but your statement is simply untrue.

497 Charles Johnson  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 5:52:49pm

re: #496 Buck

This is one of those rare moments in which I agree with you.

498 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 6:54:36pm

re: #494 Severus

Buck, unfortunately I have to disagree with you. Israel may have aright to exist, but our strategic interests in the mid east actually lay with the people who sell us oil. Strategically Israel is practically irrelevant to our economy other than as an outlet for selling military hardware.

I don't think so. Our interests lie with both the oil interests and a thriving Israel and not just because of military sales -- technology is another .il export we need. Cons seem to me to have a lot more cognitive dissonance about that dilemma, though, especially the quasi theocrats and their seething supporters, on their heads for Jesus to come back and kill everyone who makes them feel powerless.

And yeah, some of the warmongering types don't give two cruds about Israel or Israelis, they do just want someone to sell arms to, so have a vested interest in stoking ME tensions. We never hear any complaints about them from the rwnj, though. I don't ever expect to. WAY too much cognitive dissonance there. lol

Is everyone who you do not agree with automatically a lefty liberal socialist anti=american Israel hating foe, Sorry that's not the case. I just think our country shoudl come first.

Well, our country does come first, regardless of Bucks' personal priorities. That's just what sovereign government does.

499 Flavia  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 11:04:55pm

re: #231 LudwigVanQuixote

Not all Christians want to do that. Not all Christians hate gay people. There are a lot of believing Christians here and Observant Jews who defend gay rights regularly.

You should tone that down.

He was saying "these people" - as in the specific people we're discussing, not all Xians or Jews or any larger group. Unless I'm mistaken...

500 Flavia  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 11:14:08pm

re: #266 Buck

Really? You think proselytizing is something new?

There are mormons at my door every second week. Doesn't mean shit.

When was your particular group ever shoved into ovens over your faith? Or herded into your place of worship which was then set on fire? Yeah, a couple centuries between those two incidents, but they were both the same. Quite a bit different than one Xian asking another to try a different flavor of the same religion.

501 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Thu, Sep 22, 2011 12:31:05am

re: #500 Flavia

When was your particular group ever shoved into ovens over your faith? Or herded into your place of worship which was then set on fire? Yeah, a couple centuries between those two incidents, but they were both the same. Quite a bit different than one Xian asking another to try a different flavor of the same religion.

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

502 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Thu, Sep 22, 2011 1:55:31am

re: #481 Buck

I am Jewish. A lot of people have been trying to convert me and my people for more than 1000 years. Sometimes by force, and sometimes by talking. I don't fear the talking.

These Christian fundemantalists we are talking about are people for whom "seperation of church and state" is a left-wing talking point and not really in the constitution.

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]
[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

503 Buck  Thu, Sep 22, 2011 9:02:43am

re: #502 000G

These Christian fundemantalists we are talking about are people for whom "seperation of church and state" is a left-wing talking point and not really in the constitution.

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]
[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

You do know that the phrase "separation of church and state" itself does not appear in the United States Constitution? Right?

The First Amendment states that "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof." And I agree that it can mean the same thing.... But that is no really the point.


I really hate repeating myself, BUT if I found you a dozen or so links with video and quotes of Muslim fundemantalists who say that Sharia law should be the law through out the world, would it be ok to smear all Muslims? Or even just Keith Ellison? OR ANYONE OTHER THAT THE PEOPLE SAYING IT!

Do you have Rick Perry saying that about church and state? His spokesperson? Someone high up, who works in the Governor's office?

He has political views, and they are out there for all to see. There is no reason to think that he would be able (or even try) to change the constitution to remove the church and state

The bigots at Littlegreenfootballs have changed. Now it is a persons religious views that can be targeted and smeared. Oh wait people think that was true before. I guess now only the religion has changed....

504 Buck  Thu, Sep 22, 2011 9:06:44am

re: #221 WindUpBird

Well, you're not gay
So I know that gays don't 'count' to you
but when you hear what these people say about gays
well, sorta sounds like they want to kill us and beat us up and put us in jail!
But you're rich and white and not gay, so hey, not your problem

You don't know me. You should not pretend that you do.

505 Buck  Thu, Sep 22, 2011 9:18:00am

re: #499 Flavia

He was saying "these people" - as in the specific people we're discussing, not all Xians or Jews or any larger group. Unless I'm mistaken...

Ya, no way that anyone would sound bigoted saying "these people".

And he was talking about me. He doesn't "know" any of the things he thinks he knows. He smears me and my reputation and gets updinged for it.

Shame on him, and shame on those who updinged "that gays don't 'count'" for me.

506 Buck  Thu, Sep 22, 2011 9:24:25am

Oh ya... I forgot Windupbird was a she.....

507 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Thu, Sep 22, 2011 9:28:01am

re: #503 Buck

You do know that the phrase "separation of church and state" itself does not appear in the United States Constitution? Right?

The First Amendment states that "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof." And I agree that it can mean the same thing... But that is no really the point.

Right. The point is that you are an apologist for outspoken theocrats.

I really hate repeating myself, BUT if I found you a dozen or so links with video and quotes of Muslim fundemantalists who say that Sharia law should be the law through out the world, would it be ok to smear all Muslims? Or even just Keith Ellison? OR ANYONE OTHER THAT THE PEOPLE SAYING IT!

No. But we aren't "smearing" anyone not saying it. You are dodging, diverting, arguing against straw men.

He headed a freakin' prayer rally for Dominionists, for Pete's sake.

But no, none of this worries you. You'd rather twist his words to appear as completely innocous, right, Buck?

He has political views, and they are out there for all to see. There is no reason to think that he would be able (or even try) to change the constitution to remove the church and state

None at all, except his openly embracing theocrats as recently as the other day.

The bigots at Littlegreenfootballs have changed. Now it is a persons religious views that can be targeted and smeared. Oh wait people think that was true before. I guess now only the religion has changed...

Nothing against religion. But always pushback against theocrats, whatever the brand. And their apologists. Like you, Buck!

508 Buck  Thu, Sep 22, 2011 9:53:14am

Theocrat? Really?

So, despite not having any real proof of it, you think that Rick Perry believes that the USA should be ruled ONLY by people of his faith and beliefs.

OK, fine... I say you are crying wolf.

509 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Thu, Sep 22, 2011 9:55:02am

re: #508 Buck

Theocrat? Really?

So, despite not having any real proof of it, you think that Rick Perry believes that the USA should be ruled ONLY by people of his faith and beliefs.

Straw man, once again. Or maybe you really are as incapable of reading comprehension and accurate use of terminology as you come across.

510 Buck  Thu, Sep 22, 2011 10:09:06am

re: #509 000G

Straw man, once again. Or maybe you really are as incapable of reading comprehension and accurate use of terminology as you come across.

Or you are using the term incorrectly?

OK, I will bite. Make yourself clear. The OP is about Rick Perry. You say you are only Pushing back against the theocrats.

Is Rick Perry the person you are "pushing Back against", and do you think he is a theocrat? If so, in what way is he a theocrat?

Cause I am only defending Rick Perry. So if you are pushing back against someone else...

511 Buck  Thu, Sep 22, 2011 10:52:14am

I like that Rick Perry supports and stands with Israel.

The author of ThinkProgress article in the title of this post supports and stands with antisemites who would see Israel destroyed.

Image: zaidJilani.JPG

That is what I fear. That is what I push back against.

512 Buck  Thu, Sep 22, 2011 10:59:10am

I like that Rick Perry supports and stands with Israel.

The author of ThinkProgress article in the title of this post supports and stands with antisemites who would see Israel destroyed.

Israeli Forces Attack Nonviolent Protesters In Golan Heights
By Zaid Jilani

That is what I fear. That is what I push back against.

513 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Thu, Sep 22, 2011 12:01:49pm

re: #512 Buck

stands with Israel

e_e Next time you get the urge to call me a "robot", count back on how many times you have repeated this brainless cliché in this thread.

514 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Thu, Sep 22, 2011 12:03:24pm

re: #503 Buck

You do know that the phrase "separation of church and state" itself does not appear in the United States Constitution? Right?

Neither does "Christian bigots are to rule everyone in their path".

And?

515 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Thu, Sep 22, 2011 12:05:56pm

re: #505 Buck

Ya, no way that anyone would sound bigoted saying "these people".

When WUB starts talking like the supremacist bigots you admire, when he makes laws to delegitimize your marriages and so-called "lifestyle", when he starts talking about sending you to ex-straight camp and repairing your heterosexuality, then your complaint might have some merit.

516 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Thu, Sep 22, 2011 12:06:49pm

re: #509 000G

Straw man,

Straw Man and Buck have been partners for a very long time, looks like.

517 Buck  Thu, Sep 22, 2011 1:04:52pm

re: #514 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

Neither does "Christian bigots are to rule everyone in their path".

And?

000G said:

These Christian fundemantalists we are talking about are people for whom "seperation of church and state" is a left-wing talking point and not really in the constitution.

And then I said:

You do know that the phrase "separation of church and state" itself does not appear in the United States Constitution? Right?

Seemed relevant...

re: #513 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

e_e Next time you get the urge to call me a "robot", count back on how many times you have repeated this brainless cliché in this thread.

I don't consider it a "brainless cliché ".

re: #516 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

Straw Man and Buck have been partners for a very long time, looks like.

How can it be a straw man when you yourself use the term "Christian bigots are to rule everyone in their path"?

518 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Fri, Sep 23, 2011 5:04:38am

re: #517 Buck

I don't consider it a "brainless cliché ".

How about "repeated pablum", then. The term used to mean something before it was reduced to marketing copy.

re: #516 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

How can it be a straw man when you yourself use the term "Christian bigots are to rule everyone in their path"?

Your friends believe they are to dominate everyone on the planet.

"Separation of church and state is unconstitutional" is Bryan Fischer propaganda, and a weak excuse to defend your bigoted, gay-hating, anti-Jewish friends. They don't hide those sentiments.

519 Buck  Fri, Sep 23, 2011 9:15:48am

re: #518 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

Your friends believe they are to dominate everyone on the planet.

"Separation of church and state is unconstitutional" is Bryan Fischer propaganda, and a weak excuse to defend your bigoted, gay-hating, anti-Jewish friends. They don't hide those sentiments.

OK, so then saying that you think that Rick Perry believes that the USA should be ruled ONLY by people of his faith and beliefs is NOT a strawman. You really think that.

How about "repeated pablum", then. The term used to mean something before it was reduced to marketing copy.

Sorry, but that does not describe how I feel about that expression OR the people who are willing to say it out loud.

It means a lot to me.

520 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Fri, Sep 23, 2011 10:31:25am

re: #519 Buck

OK, so then saying that you think that Rick Perry believes that the USA should be ruled ONLY by people of his faith and beliefs is NOT a strawman. You really think that.

You need to read up on what a Straw Man is. I didn't say anything about what Prick Perry "believes".

But yes, the people he's pandering to -- the ones you already know hate and resent both of us with equal fervor -- definitely believe it.

Funny, you don't even deny that CZs are straight up bigots, yet you still defend them, like Prissy and Mammy for Rhett and Scarlet. Such self-loathing from conservatives, eesh.

Sorry, but that does not describe how I feel about that expression OR the people who are willing to say it out loud.

It means a lot to me.

Well, these issues mean a lot to me, too. The world doesn't revolve around either of our personal priorities or feelings on these matters.

Adults understand that this is the way the world works, Buck.

521 Flavia  Sat, Sep 24, 2011 1:09:28am

re: #501 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

Then I am surprised, because it certainly doesn't sound like it, here.


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