GOP Leaders Urge Bernanke to Keep Unemployment High

Nihilism
Politics • Views: 22,802

Does the Republican Party actually want the US economy to remain in its terrible state, because it’s hurting President Obama?

Are they really that corrupt and evil, that they would actively work to keep unemployment high, just to gain political advantage?

It’s difficult to come to any other conclusion, after the top four Congressional Republicans sent a letter to Federal Reserve Chairman Ben Bernanke, strongly objecting to any further economic stimulus efforts: Full Text: Republicans’ Letter to Bernanke Questioning More Fed Action.

Keeping the American public in as much pain as possible is the GOP’s strategy to win back the White House.

Jump to bottom

202 comments
1 Alexzander  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 10:09:31am

What happened to Patriotism?

2 Decatur Deb  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 10:11:57am

re: #1 Alexzander

What happened to Patriotism?

That will make a great thread some day. Basically, it's 1/3 the price in China.

3 Sol Berdinowitz  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 10:12:35am

What is scary is the lack of subtlety.

Although the GOP has nothing to gain by seeing unemployment decline between now and next November, they might just try and be a bit less direct about making no efforts to reduce it.

4 jaunte  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 10:12:42am
Are they really that corrupt and evil, that they would actively work to keep unemployment high, just to gain political advantage?

Signs point to yes.

5 Killgore Trout  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 10:14:39am
Are they really that corrupt and evil, that they would actively work to keep unemployment high, just to gain political advantage?

It's tough to tell what they're really thinking. Obama's jobs proposal and healthcare reform were all packed with previously "conservative" ideas. If the GOP were in charge they certainly would have enacted common sense economic measures like TARP and stimulating the economy. There really isn't much difference between Dems and Republicans. There is always some political grandstanding and minor differences but I'm starting to think the Republicans are really starting to believe their own rhetoric. They have a separate reality about economics, history, science, etc. It's really hard to tell how genuine their beliefs are.

6 Iwouldprefernotto  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 10:15:47am

I can't help but think that if they didn't have Fox News to support them, the Republicans would not be able to get away with this crap.

7 Alexzander  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 10:15:58am

re: #5 Killgore Trout

Agree entirely.

8 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 10:17:13am

This is the part that always astounds me. People think the GOP cares for Americans. They killed the jobs bill while lying that they want to create jobs They fight for the more money for the wealthiest at the expense of the poor. They keep us dependent on foreign energy sources because it serves their corporate masters. They have crazy economic idiocies that bring us train wreck after train wreck from Wall Street to Enron - and all also for their corporate masters. They want to raise taxes on the poor directly!

GOP to raise taxes on poor in latest repulsive hypocrisy


Yet somehow, people are stupid enough to believe that the GOP serves the average guy! The GOP wants nothing more than to bleed America dry for their own ends. You and me and everyone else in their little club is disposable. They are nothing but parasites.

9 Killgore Trout  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 10:18:06am

re: #3 ralphieboy

What is scary is the lack of subtlety.

Although the GOP has nothing to gain by seeing unemployment decline between now and next November, they might just try and be a bit less direct about making no efforts to reduce it.

We'll get another indicator about how serious the wingnuts are later this week with the vote on disaster relief. The GOP is playing with fire and I think we'll see increasing public anger with them if they continue.

10 Alexzander  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 10:22:46am

I really hope America makes some drastic changes for the better in my life time but I cannot really see where that would come from right now. Certainly not from the GOP or the dems. I cannot really see it coming from an outside/activist group either.

11 thatthatisis  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 10:24:06am

"Are they really that corrupt and evil, that they would actively work to keep unemployment high, just to gain political advantage?"

Um, yeah? When GOP leader McConnell states that the primary objective is to defeat Obama, why wouldn't we believe that their primary objective is to defeat Obama? Just taking them at their word, after all.

12 Olsonist  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 10:26:07am

Trickle Down Stockholm Syndrome.

I just love that brilliant mixed metaphor.

13 Decatur Deb  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 10:26:17am

re: #10 Alexzander

I really hope America makes some drastic changes for the better in my life time but I cannot really see where that would come from right now. Certainly not from the GOP or the dems. I cannot really see it coming from an outside/activist group either.

That leaves you with Ron Paul or a charismatic religious innovator to be named at a later date.

14 kwb2003  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 10:28:21am

Not trying to play devils advocate, but did the original stimulus package do anything to stimulate employment?

15 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 10:28:27am

I always thought that it was weird that the Fed, as a central bank ideally solely concerned with monetary policy, got that broader economical goal of "maximum employment" ("stable prices and moderate long-term interest rates" I can see, both are directly tied to monetary policy).

16 Alexzander  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 10:28:36am

re: #13 Decatur Deb

That leaves you with Ron Paul or a charismatic religious innovator to be named at a later date.

I'm kind of hoping for some collective large scale realizations that effectively force both parties, and indeed our democratic system, to improve.
Not sure what is required to catalyze the shift however.

17 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 10:29:47am

re: #12 Olsonist

Trickle Down Stockholm Syndrome.

I just love that brilliant mixed metaphor.

That is a great article.

18 Killgore Trout  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 10:30:03am

re: #14 kwb2003

Not trying to play devils advocate, but did the original stimulus package do anything to stimulate employment?

Yes. You can read the CBO reports for yourself....
[Link: www.cbo.gov...]

19 Obdicut  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 10:31:12am

re: #14 kwb2003

Not trying to play devils advocate, but did the original stimulus package do anything to stimulate employment?

Yes. A lot.

20 Decatur Deb  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 10:32:58am

re: #16 Alexzander

I'm kind of hoping for some collective large scale realizations that effectively force both parties, and indeed our democratic system, to improve.
Not sure what is required to catalyze the shift however.

The next Rapture is scheduled for 21 Oct. Perhaps all the toxic assholes will be swept up to a better place.

Hmm "Toxic Rapture"..good name for an emo rock band.

21 Gus  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 10:33:33am

Republicans: party before country.

22 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 10:34:16am

Another thing I find weird is that the Fed is allowed direct purchases of Treasury bonds.

AFAIK, that sort of thing is expressively forbidden for the Deutsche Bundesbank, the German central bank, to do. Business banks may deposit federal bonds at the Bundesbank, but losses due to falling prices at the market are incurred by the business banks, not the Bundesbank.

23 Killgore Trout  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 10:35:43am

re: #22 000G

Another thing I find weird is that the Fed is allowed direct purchases of Treasury bonds.

AFAIK, that sort of thing is expressively forbidden for the Deutsche Bundesbank, the German central bank, to do. Business banks may deposit federal bonds at the Bundesbank, but losses due to falling prices at the market are incurred by the business banks, not the Bundesbank.

I find that very strange too. I suspect even serious economists would have a hard time explaining that.

24 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 10:36:19am

All that talk about how Republicans care for themselves and others are moochers is nothing more than projection. They are the first to take federal money of any kind (see tax payer subsidies to oil companies, bail outs to Wall Street crooks and then blocking measures to regulate those crooks, the money that Texas and Alaska and all the other red states take from the Fed) that comes their way and whine the loudest if their little pot gets cut.

They are parasites with massive issues of projection.

They whine like Cartman on Southpark when they are questioned or challenged so they are noisy parasites to boot.

But just call them what they are: loathesome, self serving, smug, lying parasites with fascist leanings and an obnoxious theology that mistakes Jesus for naked avarice, fear and hatred.

25 Obdicut  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 10:36:33am

re: #22 000G

The necessity of severe financial reform and overhaul in the US is huge. It's affecting so much. CEOs and other corporate officers main job, these days, is tax evasion and using pure fiscal instruments-- just playing with the markets-- in order to make money, not actually improving their core business.

26 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 10:36:46am

re: #21 Gus 802

Republicans: party before country.

Republicans: self before all else.

27 Alexzander  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 10:37:11am

re: #22 000G

re: #23 Killgore Trout

I wish I understood banking better. I have no idea what that means.

28 Olsonist  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 10:39:02am

re: #17 LudwigVanQuixote

When I was like 14, which was many years ago at a time when like was still a preposition, I wondered why lower and middle class people could possibly vote Republican/conservative since it seemed to be against their interests. That article goes a long way to giving that question closure.

Another clue was a comment by Vin Webber who explained Reagan Democrats as royalists.

29 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 10:41:14am

re: #28 Olsonist

When I was like 14, which was many years ago at a time when like was still a preposition, I wondered why lower and middle class people could possibly vote Republican/conservative since it seemed to be against their interests. That article goes a long way to giving that question closure.

Another clue was a comment by Vin Webber who explained Reagan Democrats as royalists.

Fairly said.

30 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 10:41:20am

re: #23 Killgore Trout

I find that very strange too. I suspect even serious economists would have a hard time explaining that.

It exposes the public to a lot of financial risk, but it allows the government to be very flexible and autonomous about expanding the monetary base (and of course subsequently control its flow). So I am thinking it's instituted for political reasons.

Not playing chauvinistic games here, either. Germany has been infamous through the ages for all sorts of accounting tricks to get around laws prohibiting it from arbitrarily increasing its monetary base. Look up mefo bills for the most well-known instrument of the so-called "silent financing" during WW2.

31 garhighway  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 10:41:24am

re: #14 kwb2003

Not trying to play devils advocate, but did the original stimulus package do anything to stimulate employment?

Yes.

Next question?

32 Killgore Trout  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 10:41:48am

re: #27 Alexzander

re: #23 Killgore Trout

I wish I understood banking better. I have no idea what that means.

Well, I'll give you my childish understanding of it: The The Federal Reserve (which is technically a private bank) tells the Treasury Department to print money and issue bonds. The Fed then takes the money and uses it to buy Treasury Bonds. It's like some sort of bizarre financial MC Escher-like daisy chain. It's very weird.

33 Alexzander  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 10:44:56am

If you head over to foxnews's youtube channel here [Link: www.youtube.com...] you can see one of their subcribers who is using a totenkopf as an avatar. Classy.

PS I was over there because thats where some of the questions for tomorrows debate can be asked.

34 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 10:49:36am

re: #32 Killgore Trout

Well, I'll give you my childish understanding of it: The The Federal Reserve (which is technically a private bank) tells the Treasury Department to print money and issue bonds. The Fed then takes the money and uses it to buy Treasury Bonds. It's like some sort of bizarre financial MC Escher-like daisy chain. It's very weird.

Actually the Fed is semi-private: Members of the Board of Governors, including its chairman and vice-chairman, are chosen by the US President and confirmed by US Congress.

Also, it is important to note that while the US Treasury (or rather: the US Mint) prints the money, it is the Fed who is issuing it. And yes, it issuing it in form of a loan – that, however, is normal. All issuing of new money happens in form of loans, i.e. through the "production" of debt.

35 albusteve  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 10:49:49am

we sure are going nowhere fast...does anybody know, specifically what the GOP wants from the dems?....is there any record of compromise?

36 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 10:50:37am

re: #33 Alexzander

If you head over to foxnews's youtube channel here [Link: www.youtube.com...] you can see one of their subcribers who is using a totenkopf as an avatar. Classy.

PS I was over there because thats where some of the questions for tomorrows debate can be asked.

Yes Fox is very popular with the loser wannabe fascist thug types.

37 laZardo  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 10:54:03am

re: #34 000G

Actually the Fed is semi-private: Members of the Board of Governors, including its chairman and vice-chairman, are chosen by the US President and confirmed by US Congress.

Also, it is important to note that while the US Treasury (or rather: the US Mint) prints the money, it is the Fed who is issuing it. And yes, it issuing it in form of a loan – that, however, is normal. All issuing of new money happens in form of loans, i.e. through the "production" of debt.

If the Fed was never established, the private banks might not have gotten into such a mess!

/also where is your avatar from

38 allegro  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 10:54:13am

re: #35 albusteve

we sure are going nowhere fast...does anybody know, specifically what the GOP wants from the dems?...is there any record of compromise?

Your question just evoked a strong image in my mind of that scene in Independence Day when Brent Spiner's character was dead and his body was being used by the alien to communicate to the president. When asked what the aliens wanted us humans to do it answered: DIE!

I think that answers your question quite well actually.

39 kwb2003  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 10:54:47am

re: #18 Killgore Trout
Thanks!

re: #18 Killgore Trout

40 dragonfire1981  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 10:56:28am

Keeping the American public in as much pain as possible is the GOP’s strategy to win back the White House.

This is it right here. It's not about helping America or Americans. It's about completely destroying Obama by any means necessary. Since Obama got elected, there's been barely a shred of bi-partisanship. The GOP has been "focused like a laser beam" on demonizing the black man in the White House and getting him out at any cost (see: Debt ceiling debacle).

Their objective is to drive the economy to the brink (and perhaps even over) and blame the whole thing on Obama next year. Never mind that it's obstructionist politicians in the House that are causing a lot of these problems (see: FAA funding fiasco)

Either the American people are going to buy the Republican BS that Barack Obama is singularly responsible for destroying the U.S. economy and vote GOP are they are going to realize the truth about where the problems are coming from.

I must say the way things are going, I have my doubts it's going to be the latter.

41 Charles Johnson  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 10:59:49am

I see we have another mind-blowingly stupid outrageous outrage again on the wingnut blogs - a photo of Obama with a group of world leaders at the UN, in which he waved at someone and obscured the face next to him. They're all throwing poo and jeering again about Obama's enormous gaffe.

I guess they've never seen anything like this happen in a photograph before.

Every single moment of Obama's existence is evil to them.

42 Flounder  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 11:01:22am

re: #41 Charles

I'm sure Bush has done it.

43 Romantic Heretic  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 11:02:48am

re: #21 Gus 802

Republicans: party before country.

I don't think they can tell the difference.

44 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 11:03:24am

re: #41 Charles

Every single moment of Obama's existence is evil to them.

They need a lot of distraction from the fact that they have no clue what to do about the population's woes.

45 dragonfire1981  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 11:04:04am

I might also add that I believe part of the reason Obama hasn't completely and publicly blown his top at Republicans yet is because he knows that by doing so he'd be playing right into their hands.

They've worked hard to build him up as a scary, anger-filled, unstable black man and a public outburst by Obama would be nothing but red meat for them.

46 laZardo  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 11:05:50am

re: #45 dragonfire1981

That already seems imminent. IIRC the President publicly named-and-shamed Boehner for the "my way or the highway" hypocrisy.

47 wrenchwench  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 11:05:53am

re: #45 dragonfire1981

I might also add that I believe part of the reason Obama hasn't completely and publicly blown his top at Republicans yet is because he knows that by doing so he'd be playing right into their hands.

They've worked hard to build him up as a scary, anger-filled, unstable black man and a public outburst by Obama would be nothing but red meat for them.

Until then, they are criticizing him for being "cool" and/or "cold".

48 A Man for all Seasons  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 11:06:37am

Hi Lizards..From the birthday boy.. Played like crap today on the Golf Course.. Who effen cares? It was fun.. I'm home for a few minutes...
Winston and I are heading out to Thunderbird lake for a picnic lunch..
He can play on the shore and I can eat lunch on a blanket reading On the Oil Lands by Ellis.. It's a history of Oil in Oklahoma..
It is a perfect day here..And quite frankly you haven't seen me post about perfect weather in Oklahoma for about 6 months..Great Birthday...
I'm terrified about tonight.. There is a long tradition here and this will be my first time.. When it is your Birthday in Norman all your friends take you to campus corner to bar hop and each bar has it's own birthday shirts so you collect lots of special tee-shirts.. My driver tonight will be driving me around in a new red vette.. I'm terrified because I may need to call in sick Thursday...I have been warned...
OK.. So let me pack up and then stop by a Deli right now...
See you in a few hours.

49 Targetpractice  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 11:07:41am

Thing is, it appears to be a winning strategy. I mean, we try to console ourselves with polls that show dropping popularity for the GOP, for Congress, for the Tea Party. But there's been no subsequent rise in the popularity of either Obama or the Democratic Party. If anything, the GOP's "Government Doesn't Work!" strategy is working beautifully, as voters are concluding "A pox on both their houses" and looking to "vote the bums out!" in 2012.

So really, what happens next year? Best case scenario at this point would be a maintenance of the status quo, as the chances of the Dems retaking the House right now are slim to none. The scenario below that is the Dems retaining the Senate but losing the White House, in which case we're stuck with filibuster after filibuster, though more likely to see them broke as "moderate" Dems will be more likely to play the bipartisan game. Worst-case is Repubs run the table, in which case we'll look back on these past two years fondly.

50 Vicious Babushka  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 11:08:11am

The guy who had this job before I did wrote some of the most fucked up code that I have ever seen!

Wait, why am I complaining? MORE JOB FOR ME!

51 Feline Fearless Leader  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 11:09:33am

re: #42 Shropshire_Slasher

I'm sure Bush has done it.

I thought Bush's variant was to vomit on them in order to upstage them for the photo...
//

52 Killgore Trout  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 11:09:43am

re: #39 kwb2003

Thanks!

re: #18 Killgore Trout

The PDF's of the complete reports are long, technical and pretty hard to understand. If you click on the "blog post" for a report you'll get a fairly simple synopsis a couple paragraphs long.

53 Decatur Deb  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 11:09:59am

re: #35 albusteve

we sure are going nowhere fast...does anybody know, specifically what the GOP wants from the dems?...is there any record of compromise?

If we bring them the President's head on a platter, they'll let us listen to their Pat Boone cassettes.

54 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 11:10:05am

re: #41 Charles

I see we have another mind-blowingly stupid outrageous outrage again on the wingnut blogs - a photo of Obama with a group of world leaders at the UN, in which he waved at someone and obscured the face next to him. They're all throwing poo and jeering again about Obama's enormous gaffe.

I guess they've never seen anything like this happen in a photograph before.

Every single moment of Obama's existence is evil to them.

Wait until he sneezes in a group photo.

55 Targetpractice  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 11:10:20am

re: #45 dragonfire1981

I might also add that I believe part of the reason Obama hasn't completely and publicly blown his top at Republicans yet is because he knows that by doing so he'd be playing right into their hands.

They've worked hard to build him up as a scary, anger-filled, unstable black man and a public outburst by Obama would be nothing but red meat for them.

Which is rather asinine, because that the dynamic, willful Obama is who people elected. Not this milquetoast in a suit, whose biggest worry is appearing to be the "adult in the room" rather than a decisive leader. There was a recent bump in Obama's approval numbers, right after he gave his jobs speech. Why? Because he wasn't there, looking timid, playing the "go along to get along" game. He was giving a hard-charging speech, looking for action, and that's what voters respond to.

56 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 11:11:00am

re: #50 Alouette

The guy who had this job before I did wrote some of the most fucked up code that I have ever seen!

Wait, why am I complaining? MORE JOB FOR ME!

Parable of the broken Microsoft Windows?

57 Stanghazi  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 11:15:44am

re: #41 Charles

Wonder if they were outraged by W's shoulder massage of A. Merkel?

Nah.

58 Obdicut  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 11:16:54am

re: #55 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

THere's an inherent problem in the landscape, though, which is the broken media.

Ryan's plan was a godawful, lying sack of cruel shit. It was based on a fantasy, it had terrible, evil effects, and it still added shittons to the deficit.

ANd yet it was called 'brave' and got lots of play in the media as though it were something serious.

Obama called it out for what it was, called it nonsense. I was glad to see that.

But when you've got all the talking heads lathering up Ryan for being 'brave', it makes it hard for Obama's condemnation to really be heard, or to have much persuasive effect.

An independent, ethical, and responsible media is really one of the cornerstones of democracy.

And we don't have one.

59 Firstinla  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 11:18:39am

Republicans are determined to destroy Obama by taking down the country. Then, when they've recaptured both houses of Congress and the White House, they will try to revive the country, thus insuring their continued control of things for years to come. Unfortunately it will take far longer to rebuild what they destroyed than it did to destroy it. The Republicans, egged on by the Tea Party, will accomplish everything on Al Queda's wish list.

60 William of Orange  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 11:20:25am

Hurrah!! Consequence of a victory for Big Corp Inc.

(CNN) -- People don't typically pay attention to software agreements, but PlayStation owners may want to read a recent update to their digital contract.

Last week Sony changed the terms-of-service document for its PlayStation Network, asking U.S. customers to forfeit their rights to file class-action lawsuits against the company and its partners. Customers can opt out by sending the company a letter in the mail.

Sony's PlayStation Network, which allows subscribers to play games and watch movies online, was down for weeks last spring following a security breach that exposed personal details of 77 million users. Users immediately began filing class-action lawsuits.

Sony said this week that the new terms-of-service changes were made, as some analysts suspected, in response to a Supreme Court decision in April. In that case, AT&T Mobility was permitted to include and enforce a clause in employment contracts that bars workers from bringing class-action suits.

And....

PlayStation Network users were alerted of the class-action changes in e-mails and in a note near the top of the agreement. Gamers are unable to play online or watch Internet video from services like Netflix until they agree to the contract update on their consoles.

It takes 45 seconds, using a game controller, to scroll to the part of the document that describes the legal waiver. It takes a minute and a half to scroll through the entire document, and certainly much longer to actually read it.

Damn you to hell, Sony!

61 allegro  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 11:22:04am

re: #59 Firstinla

Republicans are determined to destroy Obama by taking down the country. Then, when they've recaptured both houses of Congress and the White House, they will try to revive the country, thus insuring their continued control of things for years to come. Unfortunately it will take far longer to rebuild what they destroyed than it did to destroy it. The Republicans, egged on by the Tea Party, will accomplish everything on Al Queda's wish list.

It was their "reviving" of the country that got us where we are now. Did you mean to use the word "screw"?

62 Firstinla  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 11:24:54am

re: #61 allegro

It was their "reviving" of the country that got us where we are now. Did you mean to use the word "screw"?

They are screwing everybody and everything right now. I think it pathetic they don't consider this kind of governing philosophy will come back and bite them in the ass.

63 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 11:24:57am

re: #48 HoosierHoops

Happy B-Day Hoops!

64 Targetpractice  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 11:25:29am

re: #58 Obdicut

THere's an inherent problem in the landscape, though, which is the broken media.

Ryan's plan was a godawful, lying sack of cruel shit. It was based on a fantasy, it had terrible, evil effects, and it still added shittons to the deficit.

ANd yet it was called 'brave' and got lots of play in the media as though it were something serious.

Obama called it out for what it was, called it nonsense. I was glad to see that.

But when you've got all the talking heads lathering up Ryan for being 'brave', it makes it hard for Obama's condemnation to really be heard, or to have much persuasive effect.

An independent, ethical, and responsible media is really one of the cornerstones of democracy.

And we don't have one.

And yet, when word of mouth (digital and physical) got around that it would privatize Medicare and set its sights on Social Security, the media gave up trying to cover for it. It was "brave" right up til the truth got out, then they either turned around and joined in the beating or quietly walked away, as if hoping that nobody would notice the overly-long love notes they'd penned in support.

The media's fickle, going from love to hate depending upon which side they think they'll make the most profit supporting. Unfortunately, changing that is beyond the powers of government and should remain that way. It's up to us, "We the People," to demand better of our media.

65 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 11:25:54am

re: #58 Obdicut

An independent, ethical, and responsible media is really one of the cornerstones of democracy.

And we don't have one.

Possibly the most true, lean, to the point and potent thing I've seen you write here. I salute you.

66 engineer cat  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 11:29:55am

Does the Republican Party actually want the US economy to remain in its terrible state, because it’s hurting President Obama?

to be fair, i'm convinced that the republican party has more than just a political interest in keeping unemployment high

i vividly remember a number of years ago when alan greenspan testified before congress and discussed the problem of "wage pressures"

in other words, those durn 'employee' types are getting uppity and asking fer more money again. can't peasants ever learn the proper gratitude due to the superior job creator class?

so, i think it's pretty clear that high unemployment and the Great Recession furthers the republican party aim of an historic downward pressure on compensation for the american worker

Floggings Will Continue Until Morale Improves

67 allegro  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 11:32:38am

re: #66 engineer dog

so, i think it's pretty clear that high unemployment and the Great Recession furthers the republican party aim of an historic downward pressure on compensation for the american worker

I quite agree. It's a pain for them to have to outsource to other countries to get slave labor. They want that here at home. They've got it in the undocumented workers. They want the white English-speaking serfs workers there too.

68 Killgore Trout  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 11:32:46am

CNN: Fed to lower long-term interest rates to stimulate economic growth

69 wrenchwench  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 11:33:18am

re: #66 engineer dog

so, i think it's pretty clear that high unemployment and the Great Recession furthers the republican party aim of an historic downward pressure on compensation for the american worker

And they're on their own for health care, since employers won't be able to provide it and Obamacare will be repealed (if Republicans have their way).

70 Sol Berdinowitz  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 11:34:12am

We could regain full employment by abolishing the minimum wage. And the Thirteenth Amendment...

71 Targetpractice  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 11:34:59am

re: #66 engineer dog

Does the Republican Party actually want the US economy to remain in its terrible state, because it’s hurting President Obama?

to be fair, i'm convinced that the republican party has more than just a political interest in keeping unemployment high

i vividly remember a number of years ago when alan greenspan testified before congress and discussed the problem of "wage pressures"

in other words, those durn 'employee' types are getting uppity and asking fer more money again. can't peasants ever learn the proper gratitude due to the superior job creator class?

so, i think it's pretty clear that high unemployment and the Great Recession furthers the republican party aim of an historic downward pressure on compensation for the american worker

Floggings Will Continue Until Morale Improves

They've already been trying at the state level, calling for the abolishing of minimum wage laws, child labor laws, various business regulations, and so forth. They're not silent about their intentions, just not speaking loudly enough for everybody to hear them.

72 Political Atheist  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 11:35:14am

re: #68 Killgore Trout

CNN: Fed to lower long-term interest rates to stimulate economic growth

Look what happened as the news broke
[Link: www.kitco.com...]

73 Killgore Trout  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 11:36:32am

re: #72 Rightwingconspirator

There's also this....
Fed decides on $400 billion bond swap

Central bank also to reinvest proceeds into mortgage securities

74 Vicious Babushka  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 11:36:38am

re: #56 000G

Parable of the broken Microsoft Windows?

Yeah well, it sucks when there is fucked up code on my own website, because I have to do all my own programming for nothing (except for revenue gained from the Zionist Mall, so it really, really sucks when the vendors fuck up the code at their end, no sales for me and no sales for them either)

But fucked-up code at work, that's what I get paid to fix. :)

75 Targetpractice  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 11:36:56am

re: #72 Rightwingconspirator

Look what happened as the news broke
[Link: www.kitco.com...]

Was wondering what that loud pop was.

76 William of Orange  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 11:38:13am

More bad news today. R.E.M just officially split.

"To our Fans and Friends: As R.E.M., and as lifelong friends and co-conspirators, we have decided to call it a day as a band. We walk away with a great sense of gratitude, of finality, and of astonishment at all we have accomplished. To anyone who ever felt touched by our music, our deepest thanks for listening." R.E.M.

In their own words: The guys share their thoughts on why now.

MIKE

"During our last tour, and while making Collapse Into Now and putting together this greatest hits retrospective, we started asking ourselves, 'what next'? Working through our music and memories from over three decades was a hell of a journey. We realized that these songs seemed to draw a natural line under the last 31 years of our working together.

"We have always been a band in the truest sense of the word. Brothers who truly love, and respect, each other. We feel kind of like pioneers in this--there's no disharmony here, no falling-outs, no lawyers squaring-off. We've made this decision together, amicably and with each other's best interests at heart. The time just feels right."

MICHAEL

"A wise man once said--'the skill in attending a party is knowing when it's time to leave.' We built something extraordinary together. We did this thing. And now we're going to walk away from it.

"I hope our fans realize this wasn't an easy decision; but all things must end, and we wanted to do it right, to do it our way.

"We have to thank all the people who helped us be R.E.M. for these 31 years; our deepest gratitude to those who allowed us to do this. It's been amazing."

PETER

"One of the things that was always so great about being in R.E.M. was the fact that the records and the songs we wrote meant as much to our fans as they did to us. It was, and still is, important to us to do right by you. Being a part of your lives has been an unbelievable gift. Thank you.

"Mike, Michael, Bill, Bertis, and I walk away as great friends. I know I will be seeing them in the future, just as I know I will be seeing everyone who has followed us and supported us through the years. Even if it's only in the vinyl aisle of your local record store, or standing at the back of the club: watching a group of 19 year olds trying to change the world."

Recently a friend of mine made a blistering dance remix of "To the one I love". A classic track made ready for the 21 century. And now the band split.... This sucks major.


Here's that track.

R.E.M. vs Example - The One Who Changed The Way I Love (a Hifi Banjo Strings mashup)

77 Targetpractice  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 11:38:52am

re: #70 ralphieboy

We could regain full employment by abolishing the minimum wage. And the Thirteenth Amendment...

And the 19th Amendment...and cramming in a Balanced Budget Amendment...and abolishing the EPA, FDA, OSHA, and any other regulatory bodies we can think of...

Shit, we'll just make it simple and declare that full employment won't happen until we're even worse than China.

//

78 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 11:39:25am

re: #68 Killgore Trout

CNN: Fed to lower long-term interest rates to stimulate economic growth

In other words: More of the same.

The US really is turning into Japan.

79 Bulworth  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 11:40:56am

So the Fed coughed up $400 bill today? Doesn't sound like much.

80 Political Atheist  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 11:41:08am

re: #76 William of Orange

Better that than the Ensure Tour ala Rolling Stones.

81 Feline Fearless Leader  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 11:41:34am

re: #66 engineer dog

Does the Republican Party actually want the US economy to remain in its terrible state, because it’s hurting President Obama?

Floggings Will Continue Until Morale Improves

Advocating that corporations adopt the traditions of the Royal Navy, are we? :)

And, are we talking said traditions according to Winston Churchill, or Monty Python???
/

82 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 11:41:48am

re: #74 Alouette

But fucked-up code at work, that's what I get paid to fix. :)

I guess you will never be out of work, then.

83 laZardo  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 11:42:34am

re: #77 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

And the 19th Amendment...and cramming in a Balanced Budget Amendment...and abolishing the EPA, FDA, OSHA, and any other regulatory bodies we can think of...

Shit, we'll just make it simple and declare that full employment won't happen until we're even worse than China.

//

China is already prospering without regulations to strangle it. Why are you saying it's worse?

84 Sol Berdinowitz  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 11:42:36am

re: #76 William of Orange


I remember sitting down at the start of the first Gulf War to learn all the words to "The End of the World as We Know It", and being slightly concerned that I might not learn it in time for the end of the world as we knew it.

85 Gus  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 11:43:52am

re: #68 Killgore Trout

CNN: Fed to lower long-term interest rates to stimulate economic growth

...

A Republican president would never allow this! Not only that but Ben Bernanke is a liberal Democrat!

86 jamesfirecat  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 11:44:12am

re: #14 kwb2003

Not trying to play devils advocate, but did the original stimulus package do anything to stimulate employment?

Survey says.... YES!

87 Sol Berdinowitz  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 11:45:17am

re: #14 kwb2003

Not trying to play devils advocate, but did the original stimulus package do anything to stimulate employment?

It is one of those hard-to-prove things unless we had access to a parallell universe where there was no stimulus so we could compare what the unemployment rate would be there...

88 Targetpractice  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 11:45:26am

re: #85 Gus 802

...

One that should be tried for treason!

89 Gus  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 11:45:26am

Oh brother. I made the mistake of searching #tcot on Twitter and found this...

Sheriff Joe Arpaio appoints ‘cold case posse’ to probe Obama’s birth certificate

Arpaio of Maricopa County, Arizona has appointed a “cold case posse” to determine whether President Barack Obama was actually born in the United States.

The news was first reported by World Net Daily, an online publication that has doggedly pursued conspiracy theories about the president’s birth.

Sgt. Jesse Spurgin, a spokesman for the Maricopa County Sheriff’s Office, confirmed the news to The Daily Caller on Tuesday.

Spurgin explained that the tough-on-crime Arizona sheriff is tasking the posse with examining documents provided to Arpaio by author Jerome Corsi.

Continues.

UFB

90 Sol Berdinowitz  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 11:47:50am

re: #89 Gus 802

Oh brother. I made the mistake of searching #tcot on Twitter and found this...

Sheriff Joe Arpaio appoints ‘cold case posse’ to probe Obama’s birth certificate


UFB

I need a cold case of beer to wash that news down with...

91 Gus  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 11:48:52am

re: #90 ralphieboy

I need a cold case of beer to wash that news down with...

Arpaio is an idiot.

92 Targetpractice  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 11:48:53am

re: #89 Gus 802

Oh brother. I made the mistake of searching #tcot on Twitter and found this...

Sheriff Joe Arpaio appoints ‘cold case posse’ to probe Obama’s birth certificate

UFB

What happens if he concludes that Corsi's telling the truth? Show up in D.C. and try to arrest Obama? Hell, I'd pay good money to see that, if only to watch the Secret Service beat him stupid.

93 MicheleR  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 11:50:27am

re: #89 Gus 802
I have to go back and read these stories here, about this issue. I honestly do not understand how this became an issue in the first place, as I do not remember how or why this started, wondering where he was born. I said earlier that I did not really care about this issue- I wanted to know more about his college career, but I just don't know why this particular thing will not go away. Last I heard, there was more than enough proof he was born a US citizen

94 lawhawk  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 11:50:57am

re: #89 Gus 802

Sorry, but it's totally believable.

You'd think that some folks who crowed endlessly about Moveon.org, aren't able to, you know, MOVE ON.

He's a US citizen. Obama won the election. The GOP keeps trying to fight the last battle, learning the wrong lessons, (and regain the glory of the wrong side from the Civil War, but that's a separate issue).

And yet the economy keeps sputtering along, the government has little left it can do to improve matters and Congressional gridlock is preventing a further jobs/infrastructure package from getting done.

This should set the stage for a rollback of the GOP Congressional gains (they were swept in because of the economic mess but have ended contributing to the problem), but there's so much anger out there that Obama might lose just because.

95 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 11:52:55am

re: #93 MicheleR

I have to go back and read these stories here, about this issue. I honestly do not understand how this became an issue in the first place, as I do not remember how or why this started, wondering where he was born. I said earlier that I did not really care about this issue- I wanted to know more about his college career, but I just don't know why this particular thing will not go away. Last I heard, there was more than enough proof he was born a US citizen

Yes. Therefore this is proof that there is more than enough idiocy in the United States to go around.

96 Obdicut  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 11:53:49am

re: #93 MicheleR

Yes. You mentioned that it drove you crazy that you couldn't find Obama's 'dissertation'.

I told you that, with a JD, Obama didn't write a dissertation. I was surprised you didn't find that out, since it's easy information to access, if it really drove you 'crazy'.

97 Feline Fearless Leader  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 11:54:06am

re: #95 EmmmieG

Yes. Therefore this is proof that there is more than enough idiocy in the United States to go around.

But it's such a common commodity that I doubt we can profitably export it.

98 lawhawk  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 11:54:44am

So what exactly is the Fed doing here:

It's selling $400 billion of its shorter-term securities to buy longer-term holdings, its latest effort to boost a weak economy.

In other words, it's trying to increase liquidity and increase the spread between short and long term bonds.

It's also less than a previously issued statement where up to $600 billion in swaps were under consideration. That could be part of the reason that the markets aren't particularly impressed.

99 engineer cat  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 11:54:54am

re: #14 kwb2003

Not trying to play devils advocate, but did the original stimulus package do anything to stimulate employment?

it caused an estimated 2 million people to be hired to do work for which they were paid money

so, unless calling on people to do things in return for which you give them money is not the same as a "job" or "employment", the answer is yes

however, there is a persistent theory that jobs appear only when a certain class of people who are pleased to describe themselves as "job creators" are entirely satisfied in terms of certain economic conditions, despite the fact that there is no evidence to support this theory

100 aagcobb  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 11:55:06am

re: #57 Stanley Sea

Wonder if they were outraged by W's shoulder massage of A. Merkel?

Nah.

Can you imagine the hysterical reaction if Obama touched Merkel, or any other white woman?

101 Vicious Babushka  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 11:55:21am

re: #93 MicheleR

I have to go back and read these stories here, about this issue. I honestly do not understand how this became an issue in the first place, as I do not remember how or why this started, wondering where he was born. I said earlier that I did not really care about this issue- I wanted to know more about his college career, but I just don't know why this particular thing will not go away. Last I heard, there was more than enough proof he was born a US citizen

I'll bet you have a really bad hangover today.

102 MicheleR  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 11:56:11am

re: #95 EmmmieG
What astounds me about the people who believe this is even an issue is the fact that I finally understand the line "are you going to believe me or what your lying eyes are seeing?" It was a saying my dad used to say, as a joke, but in this case, it seems that no matter what has been done to end the "controversy" (a make believe one in my opinion) those who believe this will demand more information, and discount what they get by way of proof. Mind boggling

103 Obdicut  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 11:57:56am

re: #102 MicheleR

Sort of like how people will demand to see Obama's dissertation, even when he didn't write one?

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

104 thatthatisis  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 11:58:42am

re: #93 MicheleR

"I wanted to know more about his college career . . . "

Why?

105 aagcobb  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 11:59:15am

re: #102 MicheleR

The truthers are the same way. If there is no evidence to support the conspiracy theory, its because "they" are covering it up. If there is evidence which debunks the conspiracy theory, "they" manufactured it. I knew that if Obama produced his birth certificate, the birthers would immediately denounce it as a forgery, and that's exactly what they did.

106 MicheleR  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 11:59:27am

re: #96 Obdicut
Yes, I admit, I did not know about the JD difference. And in the end, it really wasn't what I should have been looking for in the first place. I was wrong to worry so much about it, as his public service record was right there to look at, that was my mistake.

107 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 11:59:43am

re: #102 MicheleR

What astounds me about the people who believe this is even an issue is the fact that I finally understand the line "are you going to believe me or what your lying eyes are seeing?" It was a saying my dad used to say, as a joke, but in this case, it seems that no matter what has been done to end the "controversy" (a make believe one in my opinion) those who believe this will demand more information, and discount what they get by way of proof. Mind boggling

Years ago I watched a documentary on Princess Anastasia. They showed a couple who were supporters of the German factory worker who claimed to be Anastasia taking the phone call wherein they would be told the results of a DNA test that tested the fake Anastasia against a living relative (Prince Phillip, actually), and the nephew of the factory worker.

They just kept saying, "I don't believe it. It can't be true."

They had invested so much they couldn't back up at that point.

108 Obdicut  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 12:00:40pm

re: #106 MicheleR

But if it drove you crazy, you must have spent a little time trying to find it, right? How did you manage to escape the information that he didn't write one, since he got a JD. It's something that you'd find out if you actually looked into the matter.

So what did you do? Just get really angry at it but not actually try to verify the facts?

109 engineer cat  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 12:01:09pm

stimulate employment

you need to turn taxes on millionaires down to a romantic level, put on some de-regulatory mood music, whisper free-market nostrums into your partner's board room, and hope that that will be the proper stimulus to put them in a job creating mood

but job creators are very emotional and sensitive creatures, so you never know...

110 [deleted]  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 12:01:41pm
111 Obdicut  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 12:01:51pm

re: #109 engineer dog

They're also currently busy fucking Asia.

112 lawhawk  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 12:02:36pm

re: #99 engineer dog

I think the real reason that people don't think the stimulus worked is because the expectations of what it would do, and what happened, didn't match.

Turns out the recession was far deeper than anyone believed, which meant that the effects of the stimulus as a job creator were muted.

It kept things from getting even worse than they were. The stimulus also included billions in transfer payments to states to keep the states from having to engage in massive cuts - to tide them over until their revenues improved or they made sufficient structural changes to their budgets.

The Administration focused on jobs saved or created as a metric, which was an attempt to catalog the effect of keeping people in jobs through those kinds of transfer payments, but the visual that everyone focuses on is the U3 or U6 unemployment rates, which kept climbing despite the stimulus.

The GOP conclusion is that the stimulus failed, and that the only solution is to cut taxes and cut spending even more. All they have to do is point to the unemployment rates to bolster their argument. And that's one that has traction.

Democrats have the more difficult task of trying to make this about job creation but focusing on the Party of No (the GOP) is perhaps the only thing that will save the day for them.

113 MicheleR  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 12:02:58pm

re: #104 thatthatisis
I'm not sure, I admit that I must have heard something that made me start wondering about it. I do remember, when Clinton was running, there was something about his college career that became an issue, but if memory serves that had to do with something totally different. Something about serving in some capacity in the Armed Forces.

114 iossarian  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 12:04:53pm

W. was as thick as pigshit, but I never doubted the fact that he went to Yale.

115 Obdicut  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 12:04:56pm

re: #113 MicheleR

So why not spend a tiny amount of effort yourself to verify it, if it drove you 'crazy', so much so that you were all-caps ranting about it yesterday?

116 engineer cat  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 12:05:39pm

re: #111 Obdicut

They're also currently busy fucking Asia.

heh!

117 Sol Berdinowitz  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 12:06:14pm

re: #114 iossarian

W. was as thick as pigshit, but I never doubted the fact that he went to Yale.

We all know what became of those who tried to produce documents to prove that he ducked out of serving his time in the Air National Guard...

118 makeitstop  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 12:06:41pm

Spidey sense, tingling anew.

119 KingKenrod  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 12:06:53pm

re: #99 engineer dog

it caused an estimated 2 million people to be hired to do work for which they were paid money

so, unless calling on people to do things in return for which you give them money is not the same as a "job" or "employment", the answer is yes

however, there is a persistent theory that jobs appear only when a certain class of people who are pleased to describe themselves as "job creators" are entirely satisfied in terms of certain economic conditions, despite the fact that there is no evidence to support this theory

It's not just "terms of economic conditions", it's actual demand for product.

And on the stimulus - you basically long term growth for short-term growth because all of the stimulus money was borrowed and spent on short-term stimulus. This is a chronic problem with our political class - kicking the can down the road.

If the stimulus had been spent mostly on projects that have long-term payoff, it wouldn't have been so bad. Instead about 2/3rds of it was spent on short term band-aids - aid to the states and small tax cuts.

120 Obdicut  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 12:09:42pm

re: #119 KingKenrod

Yep. We needed an immediate and a long-term stimulus plan. All we got is the immediate. It's out.

But good luck selling the GOP in actually investing money in the country.

121 MicheleR  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 12:10:07pm

re: #108 Obdicut
No, I don't recall getting really angry about it. That election was so overwhelming in information, it was so hard to figure out what the heck was going on from one week to the next and I remember just trying to find some issue that seemed a bit less emotional, then I started to follow the saga of Palin, from feeling like she was so different and interesting to realizing that apart from some similarities in our personal lives, she and I were totally different politically. Looking back, I was easily distracted during that election. Not proud of it, but there it is.

122 engineer cat  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 12:10:38pm

re: #112 lawhawk

I think the real reason that people don't think the stimulus worked is because the expectations of what it would do, and what happened, didn't match.

Turns out the recession was far deeper than anyone believed, which meant that the effects of the stimulus as a job creator were muted.

It kept things from getting even worse than they were. The stimulus also included billions in transfer payments to states to keep the states from having to engage in massive cuts - to tide them over until their revenues improved or they made sufficient structural changes to their budgets.

The Administration focused on jobs saved or created as a metric, which was an attempt to catalog the effect of keeping people in jobs through those kinds of transfer payments, but the visual that everyone focuses on is the U3 or U6 unemployment rates, which kept climbing despite the stimulus.

The GOP conclusion is that the stimulus failed, and that the only solution is to cut taxes and cut spending even more. All they have to do is point to the unemployment rates to bolster their argument. And that's one that has traction.

Democrats have the more difficult task of trying to make this about job creation but focusing on the Party of No (the GOP) is perhaps the only thing that will save the day for them.

yes, i agree entirely

republicans have redefined the aim of the 'stimulus' as keeping unemployment at a certain level

but they often use the rhetorical device of redefining the aims of democrats and progessive policy. i can't tell you how many times i've been told that my ("you liberals") primary aim in life is to redistribute income, "predetermine economic outcomes", and choose winners and losers

123 Obdicut  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 12:11:07pm

re: #121 MicheleR

You said it drove you crazy.

And yesterday, you were ranting about it.

You never even bothered to acknowledge you'd been corrected, either. Just vanished.

Where's your sense of personal responsibility? Why didn't you try to verify the information?

124 engineer cat  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 12:13:59pm

re: #119 KingKenrod

It's not just "terms of economic conditions", it's actual demand for product.

And on the stimulus - you basically long term growth for short-term growth because all of the stimulus money was borrowed and spent on short-term stimulus. This is a chronic problem with our political class - kicking the can down the road.

If the stimulus had been spent mostly on projects that have long-term payoff, it wouldn't have been so bad. Instead about 2/3rds of it was spent on short term band-aids - aid to the states and small tax cuts.

in the famous words of one of FDR's advisors, people don't eat in the "long term"

if you hire somebody to do something useful and pay them for it, it's a job - and people need jobs

and IF YOU BECOME EMPLOYED AND ARE GETTING PAID, IPSO FACTO THIS "CREATES DEMAND"

because you can now afford lunch, for example...

when unemployment is stuck at 9%, the niceties of short term vs long term stimulus & etc are not really critical

125 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 12:14:46pm

Something to think about while smug Republicans whine about how hard they "work" and how entitled they are.

I was talking recently to a neighbour, who is a friend and a police officer. He does shift work and is out at all hours. He sometimes sees humanity at its worst. Usually, he sees it at its most venal, silly, unthinking and pathetic. I won't go too far into the story he told me about a domestic dispute or the woman who called 911 to complain that a dog pooped in her lawn - and then went looking for the dog with a butcher knife (she didn't find it). Once he had to talk a 12 year old kid into putting down a revolver. The child had been beaten one time too many. It is all part of the job he muses. He has a real job. He does actual hard work. Lives depend on him doing it right and he does it for something like 48k a year.

My brother is a damn good doctor. With the way medical school loans are and malpractice insurance is, he might - just might - be able to pay that all off in another 20 years with about 40k a year left over to live on. He has gotten out of residency, so he no longer has to be on call for 72 hours. Lives depend on him getting it right - hundreds of them, no matter how tired he is - and he does get it right, day in and day out snatching minutes of sleep here and there like a soldier.

What is it like in a coal mine? However much I wish we weren't using coal for climate reasons, I respect the hell out of those brave souls who risk their lives and ruin their bodies going under so that we can leave the lights on all night and never think twice about it. That is hard work.

I can tell you from personal experience that work in a lab goes from a sort of second gear "do the to do list today" to an overdrive that takes multiple all-nighters in one week and coming home to, if you are lucky, a meal that was cooked for you to heat up. The work is exacting. Less than 1% could do it. No one who has not done science can really comprehend how projects come and absorb almost every moment. From such activity, all of our technology, modern economy, military prowess and modern lifestyle comes. The pay is not so great either. We almost always work for someone else. We are the "hired help." They and you reap the profits.

Teachers insure that we bring the benefits of millennia of struggle to the next generation and insure that we have a future. They are paid crap for a job that is more demanding and more important than any job pushing paper. How many hours does a good teacher spend worrying over problem children and mentoring the bright ones while dodging venal parents and imbecilic administrators?

The soldier and the sailor keep us safe... and put their lives directly on the line when called to - even if those issuing the call are not always so pure, or the cause so clear. That is hard work and it costs them not just their bodies, but their home lives as well.

No one works harder than the single mother, who has sacrificed her own dreams and works a soul crushing job to support her child and still be a good mother with little or no time to be anything for herself.

Now please compare that to the GOP corporate overlord who does not create anything, discovers no new thing, and would not sacrifice of himself even a little bit of charity. What does this obese, desk driving fellow do that is so important? How hard is that board meeting? What did he create when he sent that arduous memo? How he basks in believing all the gifts of circumstance he has enjoyed are his own and rightfully his own as payment for his trivial labors! He's never worked a real day in that job and yet is deluded into spitting on those who do. Cut the firefighters and the teachers. Kill the unions! The people doing the work certainly don't need anything of his share! Lazy women need maternity benefits! They should not have gotten pregnant he grouses through is pudgy jowls!

The Republicans did not build and do not maintain America. We do. They only rapaciously suck at an America they think serves them.

126 chunkymonkey  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 12:15:24pm

How much stimulus will be enough stimulus? Is there such a thing as too much? Jobs are important, and people are suffering terribly. How much borrowed money will it take to fix the economy? If we do suffer from significant inflation in the long term, will that be worth the near term improvement that the stimulus might deliver?

127 MicheleR  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 12:15:27pm

re: #123 Obdicut
My apologies. There was nothing to defend, you are right, I was wrong, no sarcasm. I really hope I can do better this time. I really do want to be a cut above who I was last election, honestly.

128 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 12:15:46pm

Actually, I think I'll make that a page.

129 Obdicut  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 12:17:54pm

re: #127 MicheleR

Well you might start off by, for example, after you rant at someone with all caps for a piece of information, and he gives you the information, actually acknowledging that and not just vanishing.

That's called taking responsibility. It's something conservatives like to talk about.

130 makeitstop  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 12:17:59pm

re: #125 LudwigVanQuixote

You should, by all means, page that.

131 MicheleR  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 12:19:04pm

re: #127 MicheleR
I went into the last election thinking I was hot stuff, I realize I was an idiot about a lot of things. I don't want that to repeat, but that is who I was back then, I am STILL an idiot about a lot of this, and I am sorry that I am testing your patience, I will keep trying to be more informed, less distracted.

132 MicheleR  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 12:22:56pm

re: #129 Obdicut
Noted, and I am sorry for the slight. And I do appreciate the information. I will do so in the future, and you are right- it is personal responsibility and manners. I will do better.

133 aagcobb  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 12:27:03pm

re: #126 chunkymonkey

How much stimulus will be enough stimulus? Is there such a thing as too much? Jobs are important, and people are suffering terribly. How much borrowed money will it take to fix the economy? If we do suffer from significant inflation in the long term, will that be worth the near term improvement that the stimulus might deliver?

Enough stimulus is enough to get the economy growing at a rate that will get us back to full employment within a reasonable time (by which I mean not 0% unemployment, but a job market in which a person who wants to work fulltime and is capable of doing so can get a job within a reasonable period of time). The stimulus isn't going to cause significant inflation. It is very worthwhile to stimulate the economy to generate jobs, because long term joblessness destroys lives.

134 MicheleR  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 12:29:03pm

I have to go get my kids from school- thank you for the information and hope you all have a good evening.

135 engineer cat  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 12:29:15pm

re: #126 chunkymonkey

How much stimulus will be enough stimulus? Is there such a thing as too much? Jobs are important, and people are suffering terribly. How much borrowed money will it take to fix the economy? If we do suffer from significant inflation in the long term, will that be worth the near term improvement that the stimulus might deliver?

when the borrowed money is spent by the government, where does it go?

into the pockets of americans

often, they spend it on lunch, which is always a worthwhile "short term stimulus"...

136 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 12:33:07pm

re: #130 makeitstop

You should, by all means, page that.

Paged.

137 chunkymonkey  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 12:35:38pm

re: #133 aagcobb

Enough stimulus is enough to get the economy growing at a rate that will get us back to full employment within a reasonable time (by which I mean not 0% unemployment, but a job market in which a person who wants to work fulltime and is capable of doing so can get a job within a reasonable period of time). The stimulus isn't going to cause significant inflation. It is very worthwhile to stimulate the economy to generate jobs, because long term joblessness destroys lives.

OK, you've established the goal for the outcome of the stimulus, so now how much money, in dollars, will it take to actually accomplish the goal? Could there ever be a point in which we stop spending because it's too much? If the goal hasn't been met after say one trillion dollars? Ten trillion? Fifty trillion? Presumably the goal would be achieved well before we spend ten trillion dollars stimulating the economy, but suppose it hasn't?

If all it takes is stimulus spending to create jobs and grow the economy, what's wrong with Greece? Seems like they spent a lot of money and are now in deep trouble. This causes you no worry at all?

138 chunkymonkey  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 12:37:52pm

re: #135 engineer dog

when the borrowed money is spent by the government, where does it go?

into the pockets of americans

often, they spend it on lunch, which is always a worthwhile "short term stimulus"...

Well in that case, why does the government need to spend the money at all? The government should just print money and hand it out to all of us so that we can buy lunch. Why does the money have to go through other hands first?

139 engineer cat  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 12:38:15pm

re: #137 chunkymonkey

OK, you've established the goal for the outcome of the stimulus, so now how much money, in dollars, will it take to actually accomplish the goal? Could there ever be a point in which we stop spending because it's too much? If the goal hasn't been met after say one trillion dollars? Ten trillion? Fifty trillion? Presumably the goal would be achieved well before we spend ten trillion dollars stimulating the economy, but suppose it hasn't?

If all it takes is stimulus spending to create jobs and grow the economy, what's wrong with Greece? Seems like they spent a lot of money and are now in deep trouble. This causes you no worry at all?

greece is practicing "austerity", which is the opposite of "stimulus", and is the solution that the gop is advocating

essentially, greece is now in the process of proving that the gop prescription for the economy would be a huge disaster

140 Obdicut  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 12:39:17pm

re: #137 chunkymonkey

If all it takes is stimulus spending to create jobs and grow the economy, what's wrong with Greece? Seems like they spent a lot of money and are now in deep trouble. This causes you no worry at all?

Ah, do you actually not know about all the tax avoidance in Greece?

One of their main problems is low tax receipts.

141 engineer cat  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 12:39:41pm

re: #138 chunkymonkey

Well in that case, why does the government need to spend the money at all? The government should just print money and hand it out to all of us so that we can buy lunch. Why does the money have to go through other hands first?

um, this seems like a throwing up your hands and making absurd statements kind of response

142 engineer cat  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 12:41:28pm

re: #138 chunkymonkey

Well in that case, why does the government need to spend the money at all? The government should just print money and hand it out to all of us so that we can buy lunch. Why does the money have to go through other hands first?

also - tell me, what is money and what it is for?

143 allegro  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 12:44:13pm

re: #138 chunkymonkey

Well in that case, why does the government need to spend the money at all? The government should just print money and hand it out to all of us so that we can buy lunch. Why does the money have to go through other hands first?

You do understand that stimulating the economy to create demand which in turn creates jobs means that people now unemployed and under employed will once again be paying income tax on their earnings to increase revenue raised by the government, don't you?

144 engineer cat  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 12:45:02pm

when the price of a stock goes up and all of a sudden millions of dollars magically appears, where does that money come from? i know, i know - it comes from "confidence". is that better than "printing money"?

oops, the stock price just went down again and all that "money" disappeared!

nevermind...

145 engineer cat  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 12:46:14pm

re: #143 allegro

You do understand that stimulating the economy to create demand which in turn creates jobs means that people now unemployed and under employed will once again be paying income tax on their earnings to increase revenue raised by the government, don't you?

apparently the fact that money continues to circulate throughout the economy causing good things to happen is difficult for many people to understand

146 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 12:51:42pm

Who does the work in America?

147 chunkymonkey  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 12:53:26pm

re: #139 engineer dog

greece is practicing "austerity", which is the opposite of "stimulus", and is the solution that the gop is advocating

essentially, greece is now in the process of proving that the gop prescription for the economy would be a huge disaster

Right, but why do they need to practice these "austerity" measures? They were spending a lot of money, which presumably should have been stimulating to the economy. What happened? Obdicut eludes to tax avoidance. I'm know tax avoidance occurs all over the world, so if Greece has particularly tax avoidance, please fill me in.

148 chunkymonkey  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 12:58:15pm

re: #143 allegro

You do understand that stimulating the economy to create demand which in turn creates jobs means that people now unemployed and under employed will once again be paying income tax on their earnings to increase revenue raised by the government, don't you?

Sure I understand that concept. But that has nothing to do with my question that you quoted. Cannot the economy be stimulated just the same by the government writing big checks to everyone who makes under, say, $75k per year? Won't that money create demand which in turn creates jobs means that people now unemployed and under employed will once again be paying income tax on their earnings to increase revenue raised by the government? Why does the money have to pass through other hands before getting to the rest of us?

149 chunkymonkey  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 1:00:23pm

re: #145 engineer dog

apparently the fact that money continues to circulate throughout the economy causing good things to happen is difficult for many people to understand

I understand this argument just fine. I'm just asking why can't, or why shouldn't, the government stimulate the economy by simply writing big checks for all of us making under, say, $75k per year? Wouldn't that money continue to circulate throughout the economy causing good things to happen?

150 aagcobb  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 1:10:53pm

re: #137 chunkymonkey

OK, you've established the goal for the outcome of the stimulus, so now how much money, in dollars, will it take to actually accomplish the goal? Could there ever be a point in which we stop spending because it's too much? If the goal hasn't been met after say one trillion dollars? Ten trillion? Fifty trillion? Presumably the goal would be achieved well before we spend ten trillion dollars stimulating the economy, but suppose it hasn't?

If all it takes is stimulus spending to create jobs and grow the economy, what's wrong with Greece? Seems like they spent a lot of money and are now in deep trouble. This causes you no worry at all?

Greece is a tiny little poor country. The United States is the richest country in the world. Noone wants to loan Greece money because its too poor to pay it back. Everyone wants to loan the US money; US treasury bonds are what people buy when they want the safest possible investment. Your question is nonsensical; its like asking what if I am still starving to death after I eat an entire herd of cattle.

151 engineer cat  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 1:12:19pm

re: #149 chunkymonkey

I understand this argument just fine. I'm just asking why can't, or why shouldn't, the government stimulate the economy by simply writing big checks for all of us making under, say, $75k per year? Wouldn't that money continue to circulate throughout the economy causing good things to happen?

why shouldn't the government write big checks to military contracting companies that build jets and provide security in iraq? why shouldn't the government funnel billions of dollars to doctors, hospitals, medical equipment and drug manufacturers every year? why shouldn't governments hire millions of people to fight crime and fires, and to maintain roads and bridges and other public infrastructure?

oh wait, they already do

generally speaking - to take your question seriously - i am in favor of government hiring people and otherwise spending money to do useful and necessary things

and there are plenty of useful and necessary things to go around

152 engineer cat  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 1:14:10pm

re: #148 chunkymonkey

Why does the money have to pass through other hands before getting to the rest of us?

i think you don't seem to understand money:

every time money passes through another person's hands, something useful tends to happen

the whole point is to get the money circulating around to as many hands as possible so that good things happen

153 aagcobb  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 1:15:55pm

re: #149 chunkymonkey

I understand this argument just fine. I'm just asking why can't, or why shouldn't, the government stimulate the economy by simply writing big checks for all of us making under, say, $75k per year? Wouldn't that money continue to circulate throughout the economy causing good things to happen?

Yes it would. Now just go and get that proposal passed through Congress.

154 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 1:16:20pm

re: #30 000G

It exposes the public to a lot of financial risk, but it allows the government to be very flexible and autonomous about expanding the monetary base (and of course subsequently control its flow). So I am thinking it's instituted for political reasons.

By the way, I have written about this here on LGF before: Accounting tweak could save Fed from losses

155 chunkymonkey  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 1:18:08pm

re: #150 aagcobb

Greece is a tiny little poor country. The United States is the richest country in the world. Noone wants to loan Greece money because its too poor to pay it back. Everyone wants to loan the US money; US treasury bonds are what people buy when they want the safest possible investment. Your question is nonsensical; its like asking what if I am still starving to death after I eat an entire herd of cattle.

So stimulus works for large rich countries but not for small poor countries? Stimulus has to come from borrowed money? Why can't we all just print money to stimulate our economies?

156 chunkymonkey  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 1:21:04pm

re: #151 engineer dog

why shouldn't the government write big checks to military contracting companies that build jets and provide security in iraq? why shouldn't the government funnel billions of dollars to doctors, hospitals, medical equipment and drug manufacturers every year? why shouldn't governments hire millions of people to fight crime and fires, and to maintain roads and bridges and other public infrastructure?

oh wait, they already do

generally speaking - to take your question seriously - i am in favor of government hiring people and otherwise spending money to do useful and necessary things

and there are plenty of useful and necessary things to go around

OK, good, so the federal government shouldn't give us individuals money to buy lunch, they should instead spend money to do useful and necessary things as outlined above. That makes sense. Then, presumably the money spent will trickle down and stimulate the economy like mad.

Should the government need to borrow this money, acquire it via taxation, just print it, or some combination of these? Why?

157 aagcobb  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 1:21:26pm

re: #147 chunkymonkey

Right, but why do they need to practice these "austerity" measures? They were spending a lot of money, which presumably should have been stimulating to the economy. What happened? Obdicut eludes to tax avoidance. I'm know tax avoidance occurs all over the world, so if Greece has particularly tax avoidance, please fill me in.

Let me explain in more detail. Greece is a small country, and its economy isn't likely to grow much in the future. It uses the Euro, so it can't inflate its debt away by printing more money. The U.S. is a big country, and our economy is likely to continue growing a lot in the future. Relative to GDP, the US was much deeper in debt in 1946 than it is now, and we never paid off that debt, we just kept rolling it over. But it didn't matter, because our economy has grown so much the total amount of debt we had in 1946 is tiny compared to the size of our economy now. So the answer is, we can keep rolling our debt over because our economy grows, but Greece can't.

158 engineer cat  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 1:22:10pm

re: #155 chunkymonkey

So stimulus works for large rich countries but not for small poor countries? Stimulus has to come from borrowed money? Why can't we all just print money to stimulate our economies?

why can't we just propose dumb solutions that nobody has proposed after other people have proposed practical things that have been shown to work in the past?

So stimulus works for large rich countries but not for small poor countries?

no. greece is less able to borrow money than the united states partly because it is much smaller

Stimulus has to come from borrowed money?

no. stimulus can also come from reserves or higher taxes, but some people seem unwilling to give up a fraction of their income to help fellow americans

Why can't we all just print money to stimulate our economies?

why can't we just all get rich in the stock market? where does "money" come from, anyway?

159 chunkymonkey  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 1:22:47pm

re: #152 engineer dog

i think you don't seem to understand money:

every time money passes through another person's hands, something useful tends to happen

the whole point is to get the money circulating around to as many hands as possible so that good things happen

Your saying that if it goes to some other entity besides all of us individual Americans first, it will pass through more hands in a given amount of time than it would have if we all just got checks?

160 allegro  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 1:24:08pm

re: #149 chunkymonkey

I understand this argument just fine. I'm just asking why can't, or why shouldn't, the government stimulate the economy by simply writing big checks for all of us making under, say, $75k per year? Wouldn't that money continue to circulate throughout the economy causing good things to happen?

Actually it would do a lot more for the economy than writing those trillion dollar checks for the banking industry to place into only a very few hands where it is just stashed and not circulated.

161 aagcobb  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 1:24:40pm

re: #155 chunkymonkey

So stimulus works for large rich countries but not for small poor countries? Stimulus has to come from borrowed money? Why can't we all just print money to stimulate our economies?

Greece doesn't have its own currency, it uses the Euro, so it can't print money. To have a growing economy, you have to have a growing workforce getting more productive to make more money. Greece is stagnant, and we aren't.

162 chunkymonkey  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 1:24:51pm

re: #157 aagcobb

Let me explain in more detail. Greece is a small country, and its economy isn't likely to grow much in the future. It uses the Euro, so it can't inflate its debt away by printing more money. The U.S. is a big country, and our economy is likely to continue growing a lot in the future. Relative to GDP, the US was much deeper in debt in 1946 than it is now, and we never paid off that debt, we just kept rolling it over. But it didn't matter, because our economy has grown so much the total amount of debt we had in 1946 is tiny compared to the size of our economy now. So the answer is, we can keep rolling our debt over because our economy grows, but Greece can't.

Well, that's true, they can't inflate on account of the Euro, I hadn't thought of that. And they can't borrow because they are a bad bet. How'd they get into this situation in the first place?

163 engineer cat  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 1:25:34pm

re: #156 chunkymonkey

OK, good, so the federal government shouldn't give us individuals money to buy lunch, they should instead spend money to do useful and necessary things as outlined above. That makes sense. Then, presumably the money spent will trickle down and stimulate the economy like mad.

Should the government need to borrow this money, acquire it via taxation, just print it, or some combination of these? Why?

how do you suppose any government makes decisions about how much money to "print"?

how much "money" is there, really? i mean, not printed paper dollars which may not be "based" on anything, but "real" money? how can you measure it? where does it come from or disappear to when the value of a stock goes up and down?

164 engineer cat  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 1:26:31pm

re: #159 chunkymonkey

Your saying that if it goes to some other entity besides all of us individual Americans first, it will pass through more hands in a given amount of time than it would have if we all just got checks?

no, that's not what i meant

165 chunkymonkey  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 1:28:17pm

re: #158 engineer dog

no. stimulus can also come from reserves or higher taxes, but some people seem unwilling to give up a fraction of their income to help fellow americans

We have reserves?

where does "money" come from, anyway?

Good question.

166 aagcobb  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 1:29:04pm

re: #162 chunkymonkey

Well, that's true, they can't inflate on account of the Euro, I hadn't thought of that. And they can't borrow because they are a bad bet. How'd they get into this situation in the first place?

Massive deficit spending. They have a cushy welfare state, and their economy isn't innovative and growing like ours, so they can't sustain it. Our deficit is only as large as it is because the US has one of the lowest tax rates in the world.

167 aagcobb  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 1:30:08pm

Got to go now. Bye!

168 chunkymonkey  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 1:31:28pm

re: #164 engineer dog

no, that's not what i meant

Seems to me then, that the government should take a two-pronged approach:

1. Send out checks via printed or borrowed money to all individuals who need it, say making less than $75k / year. The less you make, the more you should get.

2. Spend money on as many useful things as possible. Leave no pothole unfilled, no bridge with rust, no hospital without plenty of beds, and no farmer's field without a wind turbine.

Because this money has a stimulating effect on the economy, this can't possibly go wrong, and all of us Americans will benefit. Why is it so hard to get this done when the solution is so obvious?

169 engineer cat  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 1:32:48pm

re: #155 chunkymonkey

So stimulus works for large rich countries but not for small poor countries? Stimulus has to come from borrowed money? Why can't we all just print money to stimulate our economies?

why don't we just go back on the gold and silver standard so that we know exactly how much money we have and what it's worth? why even use paper money - shouldn't we only use gold and silver money so we will never run the risk of paper money getting out of synch with our real resources?

why should we ever help other people? why don't we just emulate ayn rand's ideal republic and charge other people for every favor that we do for them, like giving them a ride across town?

why not abolish any form of income other than wages and salaries? oops, better include profits from selling things. oops, and then there's making money by holding on to things for a while and letting their "value" go up... ooops, and then there's betting that the value of something will go down and short selling 'futures' in it...

170 wrenchwench  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 1:33:31pm

re: #165 chunkymonkey

We have reserves?

Good question.

Just cut to the chase.

We must RETURN TO THE GOLD STANDARD!!1!!1


The answer to that "good question" was posted above.

171 engineer cat  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 1:34:40pm

re: #168 chunkymonkey

Seems to me then, that the government should take a two-pronged approach:

1. Send out checks via printed or borrowed money to all individuals who need it, say making less than $75k / year. The less you make, the more you should get.

2. Spend money on as many useful things as possible. Leave no pothole unfilled, no bridge with rust, no hospital without plenty of beds, and no farmer's field without a wind turbine.

Because this money has a stimulating effect on the economy, this can't possibly go wrong, and all of us Americans will benefit. Why is it so hard to get this done when the solution is so obvious?

i only agree with #2

Why is it so hard to get this done when the solution is so obvious?

there is a group of people called "republicans" who have some strange ideas about the way things work, and they have a majority in the house of representatives

172 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 1:37:42pm

re: #157 aagcobb

It uses the Euro, so it can't inflate its debt away by printing more money.

How do you figure this? Do you have any idea how powerful the national central banks are in regards to the Euro's monetary policies?

173 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 1:38:12pm

re: #162 chunkymonkey

Well, that's true, they can't inflate on account of the Euro, I hadn't thought of that. And they can't borrow because they are a bad bet. How'd they get into this situation in the first place?

Don't listen to him. It's bs.

[Link: www.spiegel.de...]

174 chunkymonkey  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 1:41:33pm

Alright, I think we've established the solution, but I just want to be careful. How much money could be spent on this solution? Is there any limit on the money that should be spent on this stimulus? Suppose we don't spend the money as well as we should for some reason, and it doesn't have the desired and obvious good effect? Suppose our political naysayers latch onto our stated milestones and tell us that we've failed. Do we just keep spending more forever, or is there a ceiling, in terms of percent of GDP, where we will go no further in stimulus spending?

175 chunkymonkey  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 1:44:33pm

re: #173 000G

Don't listen to him. It's bs.

[Link: www.spiegel.de...]

Blame the French? Seriously?

176 allegro  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 1:45:27pm

re: #174 chunkymonkey

Alright, I think we've established the solution, but I just want to be careful. How much money could be spent on this solution? Is there any limit on the money that should be spent on this stimulus? Suppose we don't spend the money as well as we should for some reason, and it doesn't have the desired and obvious good effect? Suppose our political naysayers latch onto our stated milestones and tell us that we've failed. Do we just keep spending more forever, or is there a ceiling, in terms of percent of GDP, where we will go no further in stimulus spending?

You seem to be in a very excitable state and wanting very VERY much to make a point. What is that point you are so agitated to make?

177 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 1:45:48pm

re: #175 chunkymonkey

Blame the French? Seriously?

Not blaming the French. But you should be aware of the massively inflationary policies the Eurozone can and does conjure up. I suggest googling for the "Emergency Liquidity Assistance" program.

[Link: www.google.com...]

178 engineer cat  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 1:46:08pm

re: #174 chunkymonkey

Alright, I think we've established the solution, but I just want to be careful. How much money could be spent on this solution? Is there any limit on the money that should be spent on this stimulus? Suppose we don't spend the money as well as we should for some reason, and it doesn't have the desired and obvious good effect? Suppose our political naysayers latch onto our stated milestones and tell us that we've failed. Do we just keep spending more forever, or is there a ceiling, in terms of percent of GDP, where we will go no further in stimulus spending?

suppose we decide to invade another country and it turns out that it costs a trillion dollars over ten years and doesn't accomplish what we set out to do? suppose we pass a law lowering taxes on americans but it turns out that it doesn't provide the economic stimulus it was supposed to and instead burns a trillion dollar hole in the federal budget?

do we just continue to do the same thing over and over and hoping for a different result?

179 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 1:49:23pm

re: #175 chunkymonkey

Blame the French? Seriously?

With "him" I was refering to aagcobb, btw. He seems to be ignorant about the NCBs instead of the ECB issuing Euros, for instance.

180 engineer cat  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 1:50:24pm

re: #176 allegro

You seem to be in a very excitable state and wanting very VERY much to make a point. What is that point you are so agitated to make?

somebody is carefully preparing holes and hoping that we will step in them

181 allegro  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 1:52:20pm

re: #180 engineer dog

somebody is carefully preparing holes and hoping that we will step in them

Oh, izzat it? I thought maybe it was just someone who forgot his Prozac today or drank way too much coffee or something.

182 engineer cat  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 1:53:29pm

re: #181 allegro

or drank way too much coffee or something.

that would be me

my indian name is 'Talks Too Much'

183 chunkymonkey  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 2:13:14pm

re: #176 allegro

You seem to be in a very excitable state and wanting very VERY much to make a point. What is that point you are so agitated to make?

Neither excitable nor wanting to make a point. I just want to know if folks here have a limit on the amount of stimulus money they think should be spent, at the absolute maximum, in dollars or as percent of GDP.

I know my limits. I think that if the stimulus spending has to be limited whether or not it has its desired effect. I would say, at the absolute maximum, to spend no more than 300% of GDP through deficit spending or other means.

I'm also worried about what to do about all that debt or the potential inflation that could result. I *hope* that our economy could grow out of the shadow of that debt, but I'm not convinced this is necessarily so.

Now then, do I have agreement? is 300% too much, too little, or just about right? Or is it wrong to put up a hard barrier in the first place? Should we just stimulate the economy incrementally, wait for the transients to settle out and then repeat if necessary until the jobs and the economy return?

184 chunkymonkey  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 2:18:39pm

re: #178 engineer dog

suppose we decide to invade another country and it turns out that it costs a trillion dollars over ten years and doesn't accomplish what we set out to do? suppose we pass a law lowering taxes on americans but it turns out that it doesn't provide the economic stimulus it was supposed to and instead burns a trillion dollar hole in the federal budget?

do we just continue to do the same thing over and over and hoping for a different result?

Well, that would be a bad idea obviously, to invade another country. But OK, suppose we did invade the other country with the commensurate result you indicate above that hasn't yet accomplished what we set out to do. Should we continue to do the same things over and over? If we decided that the goal had to be accomplished, then we'd be stuck doing something.

But I didn't ask "should we keep trying to get the economy turned around." I only asked that if we were to try to turn the economy around and bring back the jobs through economic stimulus spending, should there be a limit to the spending? Nobody can seem to answer this question. I think there should be a limit, but I don't know enough about the economy to know what that limit should be.

185 engineer cat  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 2:26:08pm

re: #183 chunkymonkey

. I *hope* that our economy could grow out of the shadow of that debt, but I'm not convinced this is necessarily so.

the total amount of federal debt has not been reduced in over 50 years, and nobody in washington is talking about paying it down. the last time i heard anybody talk about "paying down the debt" was at the end of the clinton administration after the deficit had been reduced to zero for a couple of years...

the only real effect that the total amount of debt has on the u.s. economy is the amount of interest we pay on it

after the reagan tax cuts in the 80s, the percentage of the federal budget dedicated to interest on the debt went up from the typical 6% to, briefly, in the early 1990s, to 10%

where were you then? were you worried?

currently, the percentage of debt service should be up for a few years, to about 8% i think. 12-15% would be a scary level, but it doesn't look like we'll get there

now, keep in mind that in an inflationary universe, fixed interest payments become effectively smaller over time. that's why a fixed rate mortgage makes good sense for many people. in addition, the government of the united states gets a very good interest rate, something below 1%, i think. fairly quickly, the interest we are paying on the money we borrowed for the iraq war, for the bush tax decreases, for the tarp and for the stimulus will seem smaller and smaller...

now tell me again what it is that you are worried about in regard to the federal debt?

186 engineer cat  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 2:28:21pm

re: #184 chunkymonkey

I only asked that if we were to try to turn the economy around and bring back the jobs through economic stimulus spending, should there be a limit to the spending? Nobody can seem to answer this question. I think there should be a limit, but I don't know enough about the economy to know what that limit should be.

obviously, the administration tries to come up with a number that will make a dent in unemployment but at the same time be fiscally feasible and politically possible

ok?

187 chunkymonkey  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 2:31:09pm

re: #185 engineer dog

where were you then? were you worried?

Was I old enough to drink?

188 wrenchwench  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 2:34:09pm

re: #187 chunkymonkey

Was I old enough to drink?

Are you now?

189 engineer cat  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 2:34:37pm

re: #187 chunkymonkey

Was I old enough to drink?

i don't know about you, but at that date i already had two college degrees and had been a professional engineer for a number of years, so i was up on current events

listen, back in the 80s i was very concerned about the debt that the reagan administration was getting us into, but republicans at that time told me "reagan has proven that deficits don't matter"

who was right? reagan then or you now?

190 chunkymonkey  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 2:45:23pm

re: #189 engineer dog

i don't know about you, but at that date i already had two college degrees and had been a professional engineer for a number of years, so i was up on current events

listen, back in the 80s i was very concerned about the debt that the reagan administration was getting us into, but republicans at that time told me "reagan has proven that deficits don't matter"

who was right? reagan then or you now?

Back in the 80's I was a pimply faced kid. I have no idea if Reagan was right or not. You apparently think he was both right and wrong, but I can't tell for certain.

One thing I am certain of, is that pretty much nobody has ever proven anything about the economy.

191 engineer cat  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 2:54:25pm

re: #190 chunkymonkey

Back in the 80's I was a pimply faced kid. I have no idea if Reagan was right or not. You apparently think he was both right and wrong, but I can't tell for certain.

One thing I am certain of, is that pretty much nobody has ever proven anything about the economy.

my advice is to stop consuming the rhetoric you are being fed unless you learn to chew on it for a long time before deciding whether or not to swallow

192 Lidane  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 2:58:31pm

re: #1 Alexzander

What happened to Patriotism?

It wasn't profitable enough, so the GOP tossed it overboard.

As usual, the Republican party are doing what they do best -- fucking over the poor and middle class in order to try and win an election.

193 aagcobb  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 2:59:42pm

re: #179 000G

With "him" I was refering to aagcobb, btw. He seems to be ignorant about the NCBs instead of the ECB issuing Euros, for instance.

Are you seriously saying that Greece can print all the Euros it wants to and set the value of the Euro? Greece, one of the smallest and poorest states in the EU? Then why all the angst about a possible Greek default?

194 aagcobb  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 3:03:35pm

re: #184 chunkymonkey

Well, that would be a bad idea obviously, to invade another country. But OK, suppose we did invade the other country with the commensurate result you indicate above that hasn't yet accomplished what we set out to do. Should we continue to do the same things over and over? If we decided that the goal had to be accomplished, then we'd be stuck doing something.

But I didn't ask "should we keep trying to get the economy turned around." I only asked that if we were to try to turn the economy around and bring back the jobs through economic stimulus spending, should there be a limit to the spending? Nobody can seem to answer this question. I think there should be a limit, but I don't know enough about the economy to know what that limit should be.

The limit will be set by what is politically feasible. With the GOP in control of the House, that number is zero. I'm not an economist, so I can't tell you what the optimum sie of a stimulus package would be.

195 engineer cat  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 3:10:18pm

re: #193 aagcobb

Are you seriously saying that Greece can print all the Euros it wants to and set the value of the Euro? Greece, one of the smallest and poorest states in the EU? Then why all the angst about a possible Greek default?

germans have angst - greeks have φόβος

196 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 3:24:20pm

re: #193 aagcobb

Are you seriously saying that Greece can print all the Euros it wants to and set the value of the Euro? Greece, one of the smallest and poorest states in the EU?

Make of it what you will: The reality of the matter is that the Euro is issued by the NCBs in the Eurozone, the ECB has no say in the matter.

Then why all the angst about a possible Greek default?

Because paying off your debt by simply issuing all of the money you need to do it yourself based on no securities is defaulting.

Of course Greece also knows it simply cannot do what they want at whim. They have to heed the big players or else they will be fucked. But of course Germany et al know they can't just kick Greece to the dirt. So it's bailout after bailout. And austerity after austerity round. It's a sad situation.

197 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 3:28:06pm

It's really disturbing how many people, inside and outside of Europe, do not know how massively decentralized monetary policy institutions are in the Eurozone and how dysfunctional the public debt situation has become because of it.

We do not have a real central bank like the Fed. The ECB is not a real central bank. We do not have a single Treasury. There is no real lender of last resort. It's a hodgepodge. And it's dangerously arbitrary in its solution-finding process. As should be evident from just watching the debacle enfold.

198 moderatelyradicalliberal  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 4:29:39pm

Keeping the American public in as much pain as possible is the GOP’s strategy to win back the White House.

Yes it is and it's been obvious for some time now. I'm angry because they are doing and sad because they might get away with it.

199 Ming  Wed, Sep 21, 2011 9:24:04pm

2 months ago, in the run-up to the default debacle, the leading Republican candidates for President repeatedly said that they weren't all that bothered by the prospect that the United States would default on its debt.

They probably aren't that bothered right now, looking at the possibility of a Eurozone default. 000G points out that Europe doesn't have a real central bank like the Fed. But from Ron Paul's point of view, not having a central bank is a good thing.

I agree that it really does look like many Republicans want unemployment to remain high, so Obama is blamed for that. But I don't think that once a Republican takes the presidential oath of office in 2013, Republicans will pivot on a dime, and try to grow the economy. I must consider another possibility, that Republicans don't care about unemployment, period. With high unemployment, companies have a deep pool of job applicants, wages can be kept low, and employees will work hard to keep their jobs. From the point of view of a corporation, that sounds pretty good.

200 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Thu, Sep 22, 2011 2:32:12am

re: #199 Ming

They probably aren't that bothered right now, looking at the possibility of a Eurozone default. 000G points out that Europe doesn't have a real central bank like the Fed. But from Ron Paul's point of view, not having a central bank is a good thing.

It does fit rather nicely with the grander GOP attitude of "living within your means". Well, the means are arbitrarily inflated beyond any shred of rationality. Once deflation interrupts the inflationary race to the bottom between Euro and US Dollar, the means will shrink, some will be left without and thus, true to GOP "philosophy", to die. The GOP is not concerned with avoiding this scenario but only with making sure that the neccessary redistribution occuring during massive monetary events like these that usually follow debt crises will only go upwards.

201 Eventual Carrion  Thu, Sep 22, 2011 5:57:33am

re: #14 kwb2003

Not trying to play devils advocate, but did the original stimulus package do anything to stimulate employment?

Yes

202 Eventual Carrion  Thu, Sep 22, 2011 8:01:33am

re: #126 chunkymonkey

How much stimulus will be enough stimulus? Is there such a thing as too much? Jobs are important, and people are suffering terribly. How much borrowed money will it take to fix the economy? If we do suffer from significant inflation in the long term, will that be worth the near term improvement that the stimulus might deliver?

Guess you could always eat dirt.


This article has been archived.
Comments are closed.

Jump to top

Create a PageThis is the LGF Pages posting bookmarklet. To use it, drag this button to your browser's bookmark bar, and title it 'LGF Pages' (or whatever you like). Then browse to a site you want to post, select some text on the page to use for a quote, click the bookmarklet, and the Pages posting window will appear with the title, text, and any embedded video or audio files already filled in, ready to go.
Or... you can just click this button to open the Pages posting window right away.
Last updated: 2023-04-04 11:11 am PDT LGF User's Guide RSS Feeds

Help support Little Green Footballs!

Subscribe now for ad-free access!Register and sign in to a free LGF account before subscribing, and your ad-free access will be automatically enabled.

Donate with
PayPal Cash.app
Recent PagesClick to refresh
The Pandemic Cost 7 Million Lives, but Talks to Prevent a Repeat Stall In late 2021, as the world reeled from the arrival of the highly contagious omicron variant of the coronavirus, representatives of almost 200 countries met - some online, some in-person in Geneva - hoping to forestall a future worldwide ...
Cheechako
3 days ago
Views: 121 • Comments: 0 • Rating: 1
Texas County at Center of Border Fight Is Overwhelmed by Migrant Deaths EAGLE PASS, Tex. - The undertaker lighted a cigarette and held it between his latex-gloved fingers as he stood over the bloated body bag lying in the bed of his battered pickup truck. The woman had been fished out ...
Cheechako
2 weeks ago
Views: 283 • Comments: 0 • Rating: 1