Here’s an open thread for anything at all on a Friday night, with a note to let all LGF Pages authors know that there’s been a change to the LGF Pages bookmarklet to fix a small problem, so you should delete your current bookmarklet and reinstall the new one.
The new code is in the right sidebar of the LGF Pages index — the link titled “LGF Pages Bookmarklet.”
1 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Fri, Sep 23, 2011 7:50:11pm |
Anybody got a "bus-sized satellite" proof umbrella I can borrow?
| 2 |
Kragar Fri, Sep 23, 2011 7:50:30pm |
So whats everyone doing this weekend? Got a 40k game set up tomorrow.
| 3 |
Targetpractice Fri, Sep 23, 2011 7:52:00pm |
re: #2 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
So whats everyone doing this weekend? Got a 40k game set up tomorrow.
Hoping and praying that the rain holds off long enough that I can go and view the local air show for at least a couple hours. Had kinda hoped to go this afternoon, but then the thunderstorms rolled in.
| 4 |
allegro Fri, Sep 23, 2011 7:54:46pm |
re: #1 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
Anybody got a "bus-sized satellite" proof umbrella I can borrow?
Oh yeah, I forgot about that. Any predictions yet?
| 5 |
Kragar Fri, Sep 23, 2011 7:57:57pm |
| 7 |
Mostly sane, most of the time. Fri, Sep 23, 2011 7:58:19pm |
| 8 |
allegro Fri, Sep 23, 2011 7:59:46pm |
re: #5 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
[Video]
OK, so you just put that up cuz I said I was smokin' earlier, right? Great selection. Heh.
| 9 |
Gretchen G.Tiger Fri, Sep 23, 2011 8:01:13pm |
re: #6 allegro
Is tonight LGF date night or something?
No one asked me.
I can't get the bookmarklet link to open.
| 10 |
Charles Johnson Fri, Sep 23, 2011 8:02:23pm |
re: #9 ggt
No one asked me.
I can't get the bookmarklet link to open.
Sorry about that! Reload the page and it will work now. (The link got messed up.)
| 11 |
Kragar Fri, Sep 23, 2011 8:02:23pm |
re: #8 allegro
OK, so you just put that up cuz I said I was smokin' earlier, right? Great selection. Heh.
This one is better, but didn't fit your previous question.
| 13 |
Tumulus11 Fri, Sep 23, 2011 8:02:48pm |
. NASA has forecast a 1-in-32,000,000 chance that debris from the satellite could land on Colonel Gaddafi./
| 14 |
Gretchen G.Tiger Fri, Sep 23, 2011 8:03:51pm |
| 15 |
allegro Fri, Sep 23, 2011 8:04:35pm |
re: #11 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
This one is better, but didn't fit your previous question.
[Video]
I bet he was totally influenced by Morrison.
| 17 |
Gretchen G.Tiger Fri, Sep 23, 2011 8:05:02pm |
re: #10 Charles
Sorry about that! Reload the page and it will work now. (The link got messed up.)
nah, I will probably have to restart my computer.
I'll try again next time.
Thanks tho.
| 18 |
Charles Johnson Fri, Sep 23, 2011 8:06:09pm |
Ugh. Something keeps messing up the link. Instead of using the one in the post, go to the LGF Pages index page and use the bookmarklet link in the right sidebar:
[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]
| 20 |
Gretchen G.Tiger Fri, Sep 23, 2011 8:12:45pm |
Chris Christie for POTUS?
| 21 |
Gretchen G.Tiger Fri, Sep 23, 2011 8:13:34pm |
re: #18 Charles
Ugh. Something keeps messing up the link. Instead of using the one in the post, go to the LGF Pages index page and use the bookmarklet link in the right sidebar:
[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]
Very cool! Thank you Charles.
| 22 |
freetoken Fri, Sep 23, 2011 8:14:26pm |
re: #20 ggt
The GOP is looking desperately for a savior.
It was supposed to Jesus, I think, but apparently he's not showing up in time.
| 23 |
Targetpractice Fri, Sep 23, 2011 8:15:04pm |
re: #20 ggt
Chris Christie for POTUS?
He may want to reconsider, in light of Perry's faltering rise to the top.
| 24 |
Jimmi the Grey Fri, Sep 23, 2011 8:16:40pm |
re: #2 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
So whats everyone doing this weekend? Got a 40k game set up tomorrow.
Just got back from taking my Mom to the local Dairy Queen for softserve goodness. Debating going on the Ghost Walk in honor of The Independence Hop and Heritage Festival, or just lurking around here.
And being reminded I need to find a gaming group in this burg.
| 25 |
Gretchen G.Tiger Fri, Sep 23, 2011 8:16:51pm |
re: #22 freetoken
The GOP is looking desperately for a savior.
It was supposed to Jesus, I think, but apparently he's not showing up in time.
I really am getting disgusted with the people of our country. I can't think of any previous time in my life in which the delusional are really a threat.
The Whacko Christians truly believe in fairy tales. A friend tried to involve me in a converstion about end-times prophecy the other day. I wanted to laugh and cry at the same time.
| 26 |
Kragar Fri, Sep 23, 2011 8:19:53pm |
| 27 |
Targetpractice Fri, Sep 23, 2011 8:21:07pm |
re: #22 freetoken
The GOP is looking desperately for a savior.
It was supposed to Jesus, I think, but apparently he's not showing up in time.
Most of their saviors are either A) Sitting this dance out in favor of a '16 run or B) Too moderate to sell to the Tea Party crowd.
And really, that's what has bitten the GOP so hard in the ass, their Faustian deal with the Tea Party to return to prominence. While it gave them the House, it cost them the Senate, and now looks to be putting them in a very uncomfortable position over disaster spending.
| 28 |
Kragar Fri, Sep 23, 2011 8:21:44pm |
re: #25 ggt
I really am getting disgusted with the people of our country. I can't think of any previous time in my life in which the delusional are really a threat.
The Whacko Christians truly believe in fairy tales. A friend tried to involve me in a converstion about end-times prophecy the other day. I wanted to laugh and cry at the same time.
I hoped you educated him that we are all meat for the beast when the stars achieve alignment and the Elder Gods return.
| 29 |
Interesting Times Fri, Sep 23, 2011 8:21:55pm |
re: #20 ggt
Chris Christie for POTUS?
Christie is just another Koch worshipper (ironic how such an anti-gay political party is into that sort of thing :P )
Seriously though, I have to wonder how pandering to those climate-change denying oil ticks is working out for him, now that his entire state is fucking flooded 9_9
| 30 |
freetoken Fri, Sep 23, 2011 8:22:52pm |
re: #25 ggt
... I can't think of any previous time in my life in which the delusional are really a threat.
The Whacko Christians truly believe in fairy tales....
Yesterday (or the day before) there was yet another poll released of Americans and their political/religious beliefs. I was thinking of doing a Page on it but I thought it would have been covered by more news outlets, though surprisingly it didn't garner as much attention as the Fox poll not long ago.
Anyway, the bottom line is this: the Tea Partiers are dominated by young Earth creationists (YECs.) They really are the political remnant of the old white protestant groups of years ago, from back in the early part of the 20th century when fundamentalism as we know it today started to crystalize out of the larger generic Christendom.
| 31 |
Gretchen G.Tiger Fri, Sep 23, 2011 8:23:00pm |
re: #28 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
I hoped you educated him that we are all meat for the beast when the stars achieve alignment and the Elder Gods return.
I did my best.
Actually, this friend has his own Cat Overlord, so how he get's away with such beliefs is beyond me.
| 32 |
darthstar Fri, Sep 23, 2011 8:23:16pm |
One of my jesus-freak high school friends just posted a pic of her daughter on facebook...from a professional "photo shoot"...wearing a black miniskirt and a red tank with heels on the back of a Harley. Christian slut chic is the best description...sometimes I have to laugh at the ignorance of the people I grew up with.
| 33 |
Jimmi the Grey Fri, Sep 23, 2011 8:23:56pm |
re: #26 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
What games?
D&D 3.x or 1, Rifts, Traveler (the old skool one in the little books where you just needed 6siders) or board games. Just gave my Axis & Allies to my last roommate when I moved from Portland back home to Independence. Never had the chance for any Warhammer stuffs...timing issue (everytime I find an in to a group I find a female).
| 34 |
goddamnedfrank Fri, Sep 23, 2011 8:25:03pm |
So I'm looking through the Anshutz catalog and I see this. C'mon guys, you know better.
| 35 |
allegro Fri, Sep 23, 2011 8:25:31pm |
re: #32 darthstar
One of my jesus-freak high school friends just posted a pic of her daughter on facebook...from a professional "photo shoot"...wearing a black miniskirt and a red tank with heels on the back of a Harley. Christian slut chic is the best description...sometimes I have to laugh at the ignorance of the people I grew up with.
Maybe that's an indication that it really does skip generations?
One reason I chose not to reproduce. If that's true I would have had a fucking hedge fund manager or something for a kid.
| 36 |
Kragar Fri, Sep 23, 2011 8:25:41pm |
re: #33 Jimmi the Grey
D&D 3.x or 1, Rifts, Traveler (the old skool one in the little books where you just needed 6siders) or board games. Just gave my Axis & Allies to my last roommate when I moved from Portland back home to Independence. Never had the chance for any Warhammer stuffs...timing issue (everytime I find an in to a group I find a female).
I still prefer 2d edition D&D
| 37 |
goddamnedfrank Fri, Sep 23, 2011 8:26:28pm |
| 38 |
Targetpractice Fri, Sep 23, 2011 8:26:58pm |
re: #30 freetoken
Yesterday (or the day before) there was yet another poll released of Americans and their political/religious beliefs. I was thinking of doing a Page on it but I thought it would have been covered by more news outlets, though surprisingly it didn't garner as much attention as the Fox poll not long ago.
Anyway, the bottom line is this: the Tea Partiers are dominated by young Earth creationists (YECs.) They really are the political remnant of the old white protestant groups of years ago, from back in the early part of the 20th century when fundamentalism as we know it today started to crystalize out of the larger generic Christendom.
The Tea Partiers are the inevitable conclusion of decades of the GOP cozying up to the religious fundie vote. The whole "Taxed Enough Already" bit is so much bunk, folks fed bullshit by the truckload about how "high" taxes are and how the source of all their problems is Big Government, while Big Business laughs at the rubes who believe all the shit about low taxes and deregulation being the key to bringing jobs back to America.
| 39 |
Gretchen G.Tiger Fri, Sep 23, 2011 8:27:10pm |
| 40 |
goddamnedfrank Fri, Sep 23, 2011 8:28:41pm |
re: #39 ggt
ROTFLAMO
Anshutz --expensive --shopping or dreaming?
Dreaming. I could probably afford one but I'm on a self imposed moratorium for the next couple years.
| 41 |
Kragar Fri, Sep 23, 2011 8:28:51pm |
re: #37 goddamnedfrank
Dreadfleet!
The wife limits me to one GW game, but she didn't limit the amount of armies I could play.
BWAHAHA!
| 42 |
freetoken Fri, Sep 23, 2011 8:29:53pm |
re: #25 ggt
Here:
[Link: publicreligion.org...]
31% of Tea Partiers are YEC.
26% appear to be creationists but accept an older earth.
43% supposedly accept "evolution" but that would include those who lump into that term a whole set of non-naturalistic theory of evolution that is the basis of biology.
| 43 |
darthstar Fri, Sep 23, 2011 8:30:06pm |
re: #35 allegro
Maybe that's an indication that it really does skip generations?
One reason I chose not to reproduce. If that's true I would have had a fucking hedge fund manager or something for a kid.
I would have had Rick Perry.
| 44 |
Gretchen G.Tiger Fri, Sep 23, 2011 8:30:30pm |
re: #40 goddamnedfrank
Dreaming. I could probably afford one but I'm on a self imposed moratorium for the next couple years.
You mean you are not stock-piling because Obama is going to make it impossible for you to buy guns soon?
/
| 45 |
Gretchen G.Tiger Fri, Sep 23, 2011 8:31:25pm |
re: #42 freetoken
Here:
[Link: publicreligion.org...]31% of Tea Partiers are YEC.
26% appear to be creationists but accept an older earth.
43% supposedly accept "evolution" but that would include those who lump into that term a whole set of non-naturalistic theory of evolution that is the basis of biology.
100% Pawns
| 46 |
goddamnedfrank Fri, Sep 23, 2011 8:31:50pm |
re: #41 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
The wife limits me to one GW game, but she didn't limit the amount of armies I could play.
BWAHAHA!
I'm not into fantasy but I like the boats, since it's limited I ordered one that'll probably stay in the shrink wrap for a long time. I missed out on the last Space Hulk set and refuse to pay Ebay rates. Wish they'd do a reissue of Gorkamorka.
| 47 |
Jimmi the Grey Fri, Sep 23, 2011 8:31:57pm |
re: #36 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
Oh, I totally forgot BattleTech/Mechwarrior. Would love to play this one again. From 1984-1988 (High School) I was in a group that was a Merc outfit what fought the Clan Invasion...was supasweet!
| 48 |
Targetpractice Fri, Sep 23, 2011 8:32:24pm |
re: #44 ggt
You mean you are not stock-piling because Obama is going to make it impossible for you to buy guns soon?
/
Wait, we can still buy guns in America? I thought Obama grabbed them all up the same day he became president? I mean, that's what all the gun shop owners told me would happen...
//
| 49 |
freetoken Fri, Sep 23, 2011 8:32:33pm |
re: #45 ggt
What I didn't like about that poll is that their results are not broken down enough. There is a PDF that has conclusions, but does not allow for separate selection of variables.
I'm willing to bet that most of the Tea Partiers who said they accept evolution really mean ID.
| 50 |
Interesting Times Fri, Sep 23, 2011 8:33:23pm |
| 51 |
Kragar Fri, Sep 23, 2011 8:34:17pm |
re: #46 goddamnedfrank
I'm not into fantasy but I like the boats, since it's limited I ordered one that'll probably stay in the shrink wrap for a long time. I missed out on the last Space Hulk set and refuse to pay Ebay rates. Wish they'd do a reissue of Gorkamorka.
I wish they would rerelease a full version of Mighty Empires again.
| 52 |
aagcobb Fri, Sep 23, 2011 8:34:18pm |
re: #48 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds
Wait, we can still buy guns in America? I thought Obama grabbed them all up the same day he became president? I mean, that's what all the gun shop owners told me would happen...
//
The Gun shop owners ought to pray for Obama to be reelected, considering how good he's been for their business.
| 53 |
darthstar Fri, Sep 23, 2011 8:35:11pm |
| 54 |
Gretchen G.Tiger Fri, Sep 23, 2011 8:35:59pm |
re: #52 aagcobb
The Gun shop owners ought to pray for Obama to be reelected, considering how good he's been for their business.
"People" are very concerned about class warfare as the level of poverty rises.
People I don't think of as looney are getting guns.
| 55 |
freetoken Fri, Sep 23, 2011 8:36:15pm |
As if to prove LVQ to be a prophet, the MSM is falling all over themselves about Einstein being "wrong".
E.g.:
Was Einstein Wrong? A Faster-Than-Light Neutrino Could Be Saying Yes
The MSM exists only to sell hyperbole.
| 56 |
Gretchen G.Tiger Fri, Sep 23, 2011 8:37:23pm |
re: #55 freetoken
As if to prove LVQ to be a prophet, the MSM is falling all over themselves about Einstein being "wrong".
E.g.:
Was Einstein Wrong? A Faster-Than-Light Neutrino Could Be Saying Yes
The MSM exists only to sell hyperbole.
MSM exists to sell ads.
Just like fb
| 57 |
Interesting Times Fri, Sep 23, 2011 8:37:37pm |
re: #53 darthstar
I like Michael J. Fox. And his character was a
caricatureRINO moderate compared to today's GOPers.
Fixed.
| 58 |
William Barnett-Lewis Fri, Sep 23, 2011 8:37:46pm |
re: #40 goddamnedfrank
Dreaming. I could probably afford one but I'm on a self imposed moratorium for the next couple years.
Heh. I like doing that here:
[Link: www.connecticutshotgun.com...]
The Parker VH I saw at a gunshow Wednesday night was mighty pretty too.
Still I got a nice S&W Model 10 (tapered 4") that night and picked up my 642 tonight so I really shouldn't complaint too loudly.
| 59 |
darthstar Fri, Sep 23, 2011 8:38:29pm |
| 60 |
Jimmi the Grey Fri, Sep 23, 2011 8:38:35pm |
That dead satellite is passing over Oregon/Washington in the next few minutes. Going out side to see 'sup. If I don't post again in the next 30 min or so, It's been an honor my fellow lizards.
| 61 |
Targetpractice Fri, Sep 23, 2011 8:39:00pm |
re: #52 aagcobb
The Gun shop owners ought to pray for Obama to be reelected, considering how good he's been for their business.
As ggt noted, it's not just fear of "gun grabbers" that's got people stocking up. It's not hard to understand, when you see the media spending day after day stoking anger and fear amongst the populace, one day getting people worked up over "the rich," the next over "Big Government."
| 62 |
Gretchen G.Tiger Fri, Sep 23, 2011 8:39:19pm |
| 63 |
Shiplord Kirel Fri, Sep 23, 2011 8:39:57pm |
re: #48 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds
Wait, we can still buy guns in America? I thought Obama grabbed them all up the same day he became president? I mean, that's what all the gun shop owners told me would happen...
//
As a geologist, I am here to warn all thinking Americans of a pending geo-apocalypse.
Someday very soon, a threshold will be reached and suburbs, trailer parks, and isolated rural bunkers all over the country will disappear as deep caverns collapse and vast sinkholes open under the pressure generated by the monumental mass of stockpiled ammunition and hoarded guns.
These caches should be moved and dispersed, but slowly, lest the sudden pressure release cause a kind of pseudo-vulcanism and spew rock and shock-melted lava over half the country.
| 64 |
allegro Fri, Sep 23, 2011 8:40:10pm |
| 65 |
SanFranciscoZionist Fri, Sep 23, 2011 8:40:47pm |
re: #2 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
So whats everyone doing this weekend? Got a 40k game set up tomorrow.
I'm deciding whether to schlep to an 'emergency' Zionist demo in Oakland.
| 66 |
Gretchen G.Tiger Fri, Sep 23, 2011 8:40:48pm |
re: #60 Jimmi the Grey
That dead satellite is passing over Oregon/Washington in the next few minutes. Going out side to see 'sup. If I don't post again in the next 30 min or so, It's been an honor my fellow lizards.
So, what have you done that you think G-d will throw a Sattelite at you?
| 67 |
Targetpractice Fri, Sep 23, 2011 8:41:15pm |
re: #55 freetoken
As if to prove LVQ to be a prophet, the MSM is falling all over themselves about Einstein being "wrong".
E.g.:
Was Einstein Wrong? A Faster-Than-Light Neutrino Could Be Saying Yes
The MSM exists only to sell hyperbole.
And in a couple days, the article in page A14? "Einstein Proven Right, CERN Data Incorrect."
| 68 |
Firstinla Fri, Sep 23, 2011 8:42:26pm |
| 69 |
Gretchen G.Tiger Fri, Sep 23, 2011 8:42:33pm |
re: #67 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds
And in a couple days, the article in page A14? "Einstein Proven Right, CERN Data Incorrect."
"Michelle Bachmann warns that Science has been proven wrong --Vaccines shown to cause death by Einstein. "
| 70 |
freetoken Fri, Sep 23, 2011 8:42:34pm |
re: #67 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds
A much better take on the whole deal is by Sean, who knows his stuff:
| 71 |
Targetpractice Fri, Sep 23, 2011 8:42:35pm |
re: #63 Shiplord Kirel
As a geologist, I am here to warn all thinking Americans of a pending geo-apocalypse.
Someday very soon, a threshold will be reached and suburbs, trailer parks, and isolated rural bunkers all over the country will disappear as deep caverns collapse and vast sinkholes open under the pressure generated by the monumental mass of stockpiled ammunition and hoarded guns.
These caches should be moved and dispersed, but slowly, lest the sudden pressure release cause a kind of pseudo-vulcanism and spew rock and shock-melted lava over half the country.
So, does that means there's a stockpile to shame Mother Russia sitting atop the Yellowstone Caldera?
| 72 |
allegro Fri, Sep 23, 2011 8:43:52pm |
re: #63 Shiplord Kirel
As a geologist, I am here to warn all thinking Americans of a pending geo-apocalypse.
Someday very soon, a threshold will be reached and suburbs, trailer parks, and isolated rural bunkers all over the country will disappear as deep caverns collapse and vast sinkholes open under the pressure generated by the monumental mass of stockpiled ammunition and hoarded guns.
These caches should be moved and dispersed, but slowly, lest the sudden pressure release cause a kind of pseudo-vulcanism and spew rock and shock-melted lava over half the country.
Gosh, I sure feel more secure now.
| 73 |
Shiplord Kirel Fri, Sep 23, 2011 8:44:36pm |
re: #71 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds
So, does that means there's a stockpile to shame Mother Russia sitting atop the Yellowstone Caldera?
Seems very likely. Here in Texas, the threat is even worse. I expect suburban Dallas to blow up like Mt. Saint Helens if any effort is made to move the stockpiles too quickly.
| 74 |
Gretchen G.Tiger Fri, Sep 23, 2011 8:45:33pm |
What is the most commonly mined ore yielding the neurotoxin that inspired the phrase “mad as a hatter"?
google daily quiz
| 75 |
allegro Fri, Sep 23, 2011 8:46:06pm |
re: #74 ggt
What is the most commonly mined ore yielding the neurotoxin that inspired the phrase “mad as a hatter"?
google daily quiz
lead?
| 76 |
Gretchen G.Tiger Fri, Sep 23, 2011 8:46:31pm |
| 77 |
goddamnedfrank Fri, Sep 23, 2011 8:46:38pm |
re: #58 wlewisiii
Heh. I like doing that here:
[Link: www.connecticutshotgun.com...]
The Parker VH I saw at a gunshow Wednesday night was mighty pretty too.
Still I got a nice S&W Model 10 (tapered 4") that night and picked up my 642 tonight so I really shouldn't complaint too loudly.
Too nice. We have a local Blaser distributer, I'm rich enough to even walk in the door.
My awesome plan was to one day build a Ruger 77 / 22 with a Volquartsen 1 in 9 twist barrel to stabilize the Aguila 60 grain, but VQ's discontinued that barrel and I can't find anybody that makes a bolt action .22lr with that rifling.
| 78 |
Shiplord Kirel Fri, Sep 23, 2011 8:46:43pm |
re: #74 ggt
What is the most commonly mined ore yielding the neurotoxin that inspired the phrase “mad as a hatter"?
google daily quiz
cinnabar. Has a nice ring to it though.
| 79 |
Gretchen G.Tiger Fri, Sep 23, 2011 8:47:24pm |
re: #78 Shiplord Kirel
cinnabar. Has a nice ring to it though.
What is used in hat making? (millinery?)
| 80 |
allegro Fri, Sep 23, 2011 8:47:43pm |
| 82 |
Targetpractice Fri, Sep 23, 2011 8:48:51pm |
| 84 |
Gretchen G.Tiger Fri, Sep 23, 2011 8:49:13pm |
| 85 |
Gretchen G.Tiger Fri, Sep 23, 2011 8:50:09pm |
| 87 |
Shiplord Kirel Fri, Sep 23, 2011 8:51:04pm |
When I was a youngster, kids would sometimes bring globs of mercury to school and pass it around so everyone could play with it. Fascinating stuff. This practice probably explains a lot about the boomer generation.
| 88 |
Interesting Times Fri, Sep 23, 2011 8:52:49pm |
| 89 |
Gretchen G.Tiger Fri, Sep 23, 2011 8:52:50pm |
A lot of the Tea Party rhetoric makes me think of the reasons for the French Revolution.
les Miserables and all that.
| 90 |
Targetpractice Fri, Sep 23, 2011 8:52:51pm |
re: #87 Shiplord Kirel
When I was a youngster, kids would sometimes bring globs of mercury to school and pass it around so everyone could play with it. Fascinating stuff. This practice probably explains a lot about the boomer generation.
I still remember messing around with mercury thermometers in school, including the one time somebody dropped one in class and we pretty much had to evacuate the room until it was cleaned up.
| 91 |
William Barnett-Lewis Fri, Sep 23, 2011 8:53:32pm |
re: #77 goddamnedfrank
Too nice. We have a local Blaser distributer, I'm rich enough to even walk in the door.
My awesome plan was to one day build a Ruger 77 / 22 with a Volquartsen 1 in 9 twist barrel to stabilize the Aguila 60 grain, but VQ's discontinued that barrel and I can't find anybody that makes a bolt action .22lr with that rifling.
I hear you.
My realistic dream is a Ruger #1 RSI in 7x57.
| 92 |
jaunte Fri, Sep 23, 2011 8:53:38pm |
re: #83 Shiplord Kirel
The most popularly known use of cinnabar is in Chinese carved lacquerware, a technique that apparently originated in the Song Dynasty. The danger of mercury poisoning may be reduced in ancient lacquerware by entraining the powdered pigment in lacquer.
For those who like living close to the edge.
| 94 |
Shiplord Kirel Fri, Sep 23, 2011 8:55:40pm |
Of course, today if someone showed up at a school with a handful of metallic mercury, the hazmat team would be called out, the offender would be sent off to a bio-war isolation facility for observation, lawyers would arrive by emergency airdrop, parents and their offspring would appear on talk shows, and the school itself would eventually be entombed under a million tons of concrete.
| 95 |
Gretchen G.Tiger Fri, Sep 23, 2011 8:57:15pm |
| 96 |
Shiplord Kirel Fri, Sep 23, 2011 9:00:25pm |
We also had lead soldiers made from genuine brain-rotting lead, Lincoln Logs with some kind of toxic varnish that tasted awful but was apparently addictive, and lead azide caps for toy pistols.
Ah, the good old days.
| 97 |
Gretchen G.Tiger Fri, Sep 23, 2011 9:00:41pm |
| 98 |
jaunte Fri, Sep 23, 2011 9:01:10pm |
re: #96 Shiplord Kirel
I used to wonder why those caps tasted so good.
| 99 |
Gretchen G.Tiger Fri, Sep 23, 2011 9:01:19pm |
re: #96 Shiplord Kirel
We also had lead soldiers made from genuine brain-rotting lead, Lincoln Logs with some kind of toxic varnish that tasted awful but was apparently addictive, and lead azide caps for toy pistols.
Ah, the good old days.
Daisy Red Riders?
Could shoot your eye out.
| 100 |
William Barnett-Lewis Fri, Sep 23, 2011 9:02:32pm |
| 101 |
Gus Fri, Sep 23, 2011 9:02:55pm |
re: #96 Shiplord Kirel
We also had lead soldiers made from genuine brain-rotting lead, Lincoln Logs with some kind of toxic varnish that tasted awful but was apparently addictive, and lead azide caps for toy pistols.
Ah, the good old days.
Now we just have kids running into light poles while driving while texting.
//
| 103 |
Gus Fri, Sep 23, 2011 9:04:09pm |
How lovely...
Los Angeles Times
@latimes Los Angeles Times
Texas ends 'last meals' for death row inmates [Link: t.co...]
| 104 |
Gretchen G.Tiger Fri, Sep 23, 2011 9:04:14pm |
re: #100 wlewisiii
Those are very nice; thank you for the link.
you are welcome :)
And they are nice. I tried some on, they look much better on the hand that in the picture or the case.
I wasn't interested at all, then the salesperson asked me to try one on and NOW I WANT ONE!
| 105 |
Shiplord Kirel Fri, Sep 23, 2011 9:04:29pm |
re: #99 ggt
Daisy Red Riders?
Could shoot your eye out.
It's a wonder we don't have millions of one-eyed brain-damage cases on SSI these days. Oh, well, they probably all died of mercury poisoning before anyone knew enough to file claims.
| 106 |
Gretchen G.Tiger Fri, Sep 23, 2011 9:04:34pm |
| 107 |
Kragar Fri, Sep 23, 2011 9:04:38pm |
re: #96 Shiplord Kirel
We also had lead soldiers made from genuine brain-rotting lead, Lincoln Logs with some kind of toxic varnish that tasted awful but was apparently addictive, and lead azide caps for toy pistols.
Ah, the good old days.
Lawn Darts. The good ones with the 3 inch metal spike and weighted head.
| 108 |
allegro Fri, Sep 23, 2011 9:04:47pm |
re: #96 Shiplord Kirel
We also had lead soldiers made from genuine brain-rotting lead, Lincoln Logs with some kind of toxic varnish that tasted awful but was apparently addictive, and lead azide caps for toy pistols.
Ah, the good old days.
ROFL! Fucking miracle that we're still here, ain't it?
| 109 |
jaunte Fri, Sep 23, 2011 9:05:17pm |
re: #103 Gus 802
Cheapskates. I guess we could have wasted $30 or $40 dollars on those.
| 110 |
Gretchen G.Tiger Fri, Sep 23, 2011 9:05:26pm |
re: #108 allegro
ROFL! Fucking miracle that we're still here, ain't it?
All those years of babies being fed formula and processed baby food --how did we survive as a species?
| 111 |
allegro Fri, Sep 23, 2011 9:05:56pm |
| 113 |
Targetpractice Fri, Sep 23, 2011 9:06:46pm |
re: #96 Shiplord Kirel
We also had lead soldiers made from genuine brain-rotting lead, Lincoln Logs with some kind of toxic varnish that tasted awful but was apparently addictive, and lead azide caps for toy pistols.
Ah, the good old days.
Explains so much 'bout you old-timers...
/
| 114 |
Gus Fri, Sep 23, 2011 9:07:42pm |
If you're going to have the death penalty at least continue the last meal and a final cigarette. Jeez. We've become such a freaky society.
| 115 |
Interesting Times Fri, Sep 23, 2011 9:07:56pm |
re: #103 Gus 802
Los Angeles Times
@latimes Los Angeles Times
Texas ends 'last meals' for death row inmates [Link: t.co...]
Oh, let's just go whole hog and bring back all this. Think of the pay-per-view possibilities!
| 116 |
Gus Fri, Sep 23, 2011 9:09:03pm |
re: #113 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds
Explains so much 'bout you old-timers...
/
I never chewed on Lincoln Logs. Just those toy plastic soldiers from time to time. Oh. Then there was the pencil biting. You've heard of a pencil right?
//
| 117 |
OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin Fri, Sep 23, 2011 9:09:29pm |
More like work night/study night/prep for all the crap I hafta do tomorrow, night.
re: #6 allegro
Is tonight LGF date night or something?
| 118 |
Targetpractice Fri, Sep 23, 2011 9:09:57pm |
re: #114 Gus 802
If you're going to have the death penalty at least continue the last meal and a final cigarette. Jeez. We've become such a freaky society.
And yet, China looks over at Texas and screams "Pussies!" before going back to carving up political dissidents for organ transplants.
| 119 |
Romantic Heretic Fri, Sep 23, 2011 9:10:00pm |
re: #74 ggt
What is the most commonly mined ore yielding the neurotoxin that inspired the phrase “mad as a hatter"?
google daily quiz
Mercury. Can't remember what the ore it is extracted from is called.
| 120 |
Targetpractice Fri, Sep 23, 2011 9:10:38pm |
re: #116 Gus 802
I never chewed on Lincoln Logs. Just those toy plastic soldiers from time to time. Oh. Then there was the pencil biting. You've heard of a pencil right?
//
Pencil? Is that what that little icon in the top right of our posts is?
//
| 121 |
Shiplord Kirel Fri, Sep 23, 2011 9:10:52pm |
re: #103 Gus 802
How lovely...
Los Angeles Times
@latimes Los Angeles Times
Texas ends 'last meals' for death row inmates [Link: t.co...]
Inhuman bastards
The furor arose after Lawrence Brewer, 44, a convicted murderer and self-described white supremacist, requested a last meal that included: two chicken-fried steaks with gravy and sliced onions; a triple-patty bacon cheeseburger; a cheese omelet with ground beef, tomatoes, onions, bell peppers and jalapeños; a bowl of fried okra with ketchup; one pound of barbecued meat with half a loaf of white bread; three fajitas; a meat-lover’s pizza; one pint of Blue Bell Ice Cream; a slab of peanut-butter fudge with crushed peanuts; and three root beers.
Brewer was one of the most evil wretches ever to waste oxygen. I would have been willing to shoot him myself if they had given me the job, BUT I would first have made sure he got that last meal, even if I had to pay for it out of my own pocket.
| 122 |
OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin Fri, Sep 23, 2011 9:11:39pm |
Videodrome was so ahead of its time.
re: #115 publicityStunted
| 123 |
Gus Fri, Sep 23, 2011 9:12:36pm |
re: #121 Shiplord Kirel
Inhuman bastards
Brewer was one of the most evil wretches ever to waste oxygen. I would have been willing to shoot him myself if they had given me the job, BUT I would first have made sure he got that last meal, even if I had to pay for it out of my own pocket.
Yep.
"Did you watch the sunrise this morning?"
It would be the honorable thing to do. For ourselves.
| 124 |
allegro Fri, Sep 23, 2011 9:13:12pm |
re: #121 Shiplord Kirel
Inhuman bastards
Brewer was one of the most evil wretches ever to waste oxygen. I would have been willing to shoot him myself if they had given me the job, BUT I would first have made sure he got that last meal, even if I had to pay for it out of my own pocket.
My first thought was that at least he left the guards with some yummy nosh. Hope they didn't throw the good stuff away.
| 125 |
SanFranciscoZionist Fri, Sep 23, 2011 9:14:47pm |
re: #74 ggt
What is the most commonly mined ore yielding the neurotoxin that inspired the phrase “mad as a hatter"?
google daily quiz
Mercury.
| 126 |
Kronocide Fri, Sep 23, 2011 9:14:56pm |
Bastards dissing Morgan Freeman. He's the who gave me tempest in a teaspoon.
| 128 |
SanFranciscoZionist Fri, Sep 23, 2011 9:15:33pm |
re: #74 ggt
What is the most commonly mined ore yielding the neurotoxin that inspired the phrase “mad as a hatter"?
google daily quiz
Sorry, ore. Cinnabar.
| 129 |
goddamnedfrank Fri, Sep 23, 2011 9:15:35pm |
re: #115 publicityStunted
Oh, let's just go whole hog and bring back all this. Think of the pay-per-view possibilities!
| 130 |
SanFranciscoZionist Fri, Sep 23, 2011 9:16:29pm |
re: #78 Shiplord Kirel
cinnabar. Has a nice ring to it though.
Also, was used powdered as a cosmetic in the Middle Ages, possibly earlier.
Yes, it did you about as much good to layer this stuff on your skin as you would expect.
| 131 |
SanFranciscoZionist Fri, Sep 23, 2011 9:17:09pm |
re: #85 ggt
also looks like it would make beautiful jewelry
It does. The Chinese carved very lovely stuff out of it.
| 132 |
Romantic Heretic Fri, Sep 23, 2011 9:18:50pm |
re: #115 publicityStunted
Wish I hadn't read that. *Gag*
| 133 |
SanFranciscoZionist Fri, Sep 23, 2011 9:19:19pm |
re: #94 Shiplord Kirel
Of course, today if someone showed up at a school with a handful of metallic mercury, the hazmat team would be called out, the offender would be sent off to a bio-war isolation facility for observation, lawyers would arrive by emergency airdrop, parents and their offspring would appear on talk shows, and the school itself would eventually be entombed under a million tons of concrete.
There was some town back in the 80s or 90s, where some kids found a couple BARRELS of liquid mercury, accidentally abandoned when a factory moved out of town.
All hell broke loose. The kids started siphoning it off to play with.
| 134 |
Gretchen G.Tiger Fri, Sep 23, 2011 9:19:25pm |
re: #128 SanFranciscoZionist
Sorry, ore. Cinnabar.
Yeah, we hashed it out, then moved on to snorting Lincoln Logs.
| 135 |
SanFranciscoZionist Fri, Sep 23, 2011 9:21:52pm |
re: #110 ggt
All those years of babies being fed formula and processed baby food --how did we survive as a species?
There's a guide to childbirth and baby-rearing from the Italian Renaissance where it's instructed that if new mothers plan to nurse themselves, and not hire someone, they should still give the baby to a nurse for a few days, until the first milk is gone, because that's bitter, and 'unwholesome'.
I read this and more or less screamed.
Of course, this is the same era in which it was confidently reported that a child of a different race to a woman's husband is not necessarily a sign of adultery. You take the good, you take the bad...
| 136 |
Gretchen G.Tiger Fri, Sep 23, 2011 9:23:32pm |
re: #135 SanFranciscoZionist
There's a guide to childbirth and baby-rearing from the Italian Renaissance where it's instructed that if new mothers plan to nurse themselves, and not hire someone, they should still give the baby to a nurse for a few days, until the first milk is gone, because that's bitter, and 'unwholesome'.
I read this and more or less screamed.
Of course, this is the same era in which it was confidently reported that a child of a different race to a woman's husband is not necessarily a sign of adultery. You take the good, you take the bad...
It all get's screwed-up when men get involved in baby raising.
LOL
| 137 |
SanFranciscoZionist Fri, Sep 23, 2011 9:23:33pm |
re: #133 SanFranciscoZionist
There was some town back in the 80s or 90s, where some kids found a couple BARRELS of liquid mercury, accidentally abandoned when a factory moved out of town.
All hell broke loose. The kids started siphoning it off to play with.
Hard to blame them, especially if they didn't know what the dangers were. Liquid mercury is absolutely lovely stuff.
| 138 |
Shiplord Kirel Fri, Sep 23, 2011 9:26:39pm |
re: #133 SanFranciscoZionist
There was some town back in the 80s or 90s, where some kids found a couple BARRELS of liquid mercury, accidentally abandoned when a factory moved out of town.
All hell broke loose. The kids started siphoning it off to play with.
German submarine U-864 was bound for Japan with a large consignment of mercury when it was sunk in December 1944. The wreck was located in 2003 and many, but not all, of the mercury flasks were found to have leaked or broken open. The whole area is contaminated with it.
| 140 |
Gretchen G.Tiger Fri, Sep 23, 2011 9:27:11pm |
| 141 |
Gus Fri, Sep 23, 2011 9:28:08pm |
re: #140 ggt
???
Listening to Dwight Yoakam. Sounded like new strings. Reminded me of my old guitar playing days. I thought that was obvious. ;)
| 142 |
Gretchen G.Tiger Fri, Sep 23, 2011 9:28:43pm |
re: #141 Gus 802
Listening to Dwight Yoakam. Sounded like new strings. Reminded me of my old guitar playing days. I thought that was obvious. ;)
All I could think of was "napalm in the morning" . . .
| 143 |
Digital Display Fri, Sep 23, 2011 9:29:42pm |
Hi Lizards! Back home from the lodge on a Friday night...I sang karaoke tonight...I sang a 3 doors down song tonight...I practiced it for like a week..One of the most haunting songs I've ever heard...
| 145 |
OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin Fri, Sep 23, 2011 9:30:11pm |
Ha, I was going to ask you which new ones you got.
re: #141 Gus 802
Listening to Dwight Yoakam. Sounded like new strings. Reminded me of my old guitar playing days. I thought that was obvious. ;)
| 146 |
Gus Fri, Sep 23, 2011 9:30:13pm |
re: #142 ggt
All I could think of was "napalm in the morning" . . .
I love the smell of burning jet fuel. OK. In context only of course. If my neighbor started burning jet fuel I'd probably want to punch him in the nose. Used to love the smell of white gas too. Reminded me of backpacking.
| 147 |
Gus Fri, Sep 23, 2011 9:31:20pm |
re: #145 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin
Ha, I was going to ask you which new ones you got.
I was a fan of D'addario half-rounds.
| 148 |
Jimmi the Grey Fri, Sep 23, 2011 9:38:02pm |
OK, still here. Nothing fell on me. Maybe if it's in the sky long enough for another pass I'll get 'lucky'
| 149 |
Varek Raith Fri, Sep 23, 2011 9:38:26pm |
As of 10:30 p.m. EDT on Sept. 23, 2011, the orbit of UARS was 85 miles by 90 miles (135 km by 140 km). Re-entry is expected between 11:45 p.m. Friday, Sept. 23, and 12:45 a.m., Sept. 24, Eastern Daylight Time (3:45 a.m. to 4:45 a.m. GMT). During that time period, the satellite will be passing over Canada and Africa, as well as vast areas of the Pacific, Atlantic and Indian oceans. The risk to public safety is very remote.
It's becoming clear that I won't be getting a piece of that satellite.
:(
/
:)
| 150 |
Varek Raith Fri, Sep 23, 2011 9:39:52pm |
re: #149 Varek Raith
[Link: www.n2yo.com...]
| 151 |
Kragar Fri, Sep 23, 2011 9:41:08pm |
re: #149 Varek Raith
It's becoming clear that I won't be getting a piece of that satellite.
:(
/
:)
Perhaps if you realign the deflector array...
| 152 |
Gus Fri, Sep 23, 2011 9:44:06pm |
Argentina que canta
La noble raíz del canto
para cantarle a la Patria
que nadie lastime su nombre
ni derrame su sabia.En cada rincón del aire,
en cada esquina del alma
se puede decir en la gloria
para toda la raza.Bajo el cielo azul y blanco
nació para el vuelo su bandera
y con un grito en el viento
su independencia flamea.Hondean en los trigales
con sus heroicas hazañas
los hijos que le dieron todo
de su sangre a la Patria.Un río de coplas
cerro adentro de las guitarras
un surco de paz en la tierra
la Argentina que canta.
| 153 |
Varek Raith Fri, Sep 23, 2011 9:47:23pm |
NASA's UARS is either down already or flying over Africa on its way to clipping SE Australia.
| 154 |
Targetpractice Fri, Sep 23, 2011 9:49:56pm |
re: #151 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
Perhaps if you realign the deflector array...
Don't forget to reverse the polarity...
| 156 |
Kragar Fri, Sep 23, 2011 9:51:01pm |
re: #154 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds
Don't forget to reverse the polarity...
What if we route the plasma injector thru the warp core?
| 157 |
Varek Raith Fri, Sep 23, 2011 9:51:07pm |
UARS over Minnesota, 9:55pm CST.
Image: David-Bainbridge-UARS3_1316836984.jpg
| 158 |
Varek Raith Fri, Sep 23, 2011 9:52:10pm |
re: #155 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
Coming down in Cargo Cult territory?
Either that, or it's about to be visible over eastern Australia.
| 159 |
Targetpractice Fri, Sep 23, 2011 9:52:12pm |
re: #156 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
What if we route the plasma injector thru the warp core?
We'll have to run a level 3 diagnostic first...
| 160 |
Varek Raith Fri, Sep 23, 2011 9:53:34pm |
re: #156 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
What if we route the plasma injector thru the warp core?
Damn redshirts.
I wouldn't board a Federation starship if my life depended on it.
They're far to explodey.
| 161 |
Mich-again Fri, Sep 23, 2011 9:53:36pm |
re: #147 Gus 802
I mix medium strings for the EAD with heavies for the GBE. I gotta have a wound G or it'll break before its time. for this guitar.
| 163 |
Kragar Fri, Sep 23, 2011 9:55:31pm |
re: #159 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds
We'll have to run a level 3 diagnostic first...
I'll run some simulations in the holodeck.
| 164 |
Kragar Fri, Sep 23, 2011 9:56:35pm |
re: #160 Varek Raith
Damn redshirts.
I wouldn't board a Federation starship if my life depended on it.
They're far to explodey.
I don't trust any ship without a Naval Security Squad to suppress the crew if they mutiny.
| 165 |
Daniel Ballard Fri, Sep 23, 2011 9:57:03pm |
re: #157 Varek Raith
I saw a couple reports of sightings over Seattle on FB
| 166 |
Targetpractice Fri, Sep 23, 2011 9:58:08pm |
re: #164 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
I don't trust any ship without a Naval Security Squad to suppress the crew if they mutiny.
The floggings will continue until morale improves!
/
| 167 |
Gretchen G.Tiger Fri, Sep 23, 2011 9:58:14pm |
re: #163 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
I'll run some simulations in the holodeck.
Aw, wrong series.
I was thinking Scotty could come up with a solution.
| 168 |
Varek Raith Fri, Sep 23, 2011 9:58:25pm |
re: #163 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
I'll run some simulations in the holodeck.
Kif: The Holo-Shed's on the fritz again! The characters turned real!
Zapp: Damn. The last time that happened I got slapped with three paternity suits!
| 169 |
Varek Raith Fri, Sep 23, 2011 10:00:02pm |
Description of fireworks and 3 lights falling over Northern Quebec, might be UARS
| 170 |
Varek Raith Fri, Sep 23, 2011 10:00:56pm |
Lol, true.
Now the REAL purpose of the UARS re-entry hype was to get children - and adults - to get back to learning global geography.
| 172 |
prairiefire Fri, Sep 23, 2011 10:01:12pm |
re: #169 Varek Raith
I'm not sure there's much in Northern Quebec.
| 173 |
Jimmi the Grey Fri, Sep 23, 2011 10:01:30pm |
re: #66 ggt
So, what have you done that you think G-d will throw a Sattelite at you?
Oh, didn't thing it was being thrown at me. But I live in the Sinful PacNW and figured I could get some good video of the comet trail as it hit Gamorrah (read Portland).
| 174 |
Kragar Fri, Sep 23, 2011 10:02:03pm |
re: #166 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds
The floggings will continue until morale improves!
/
10 years of honorable service means you will no longer be chained to your duty station.
| 175 |
Varek Raith Fri, Sep 23, 2011 10:03:48pm |
It'll crash somewhere in Canada or the Atlantic or Africa or the Indian or Australia or the Pacific.
There, narrowed that down a bit.
/
| 176 |
Jimmi the Grey Fri, Sep 23, 2011 10:05:12pm |
re: #160 Varek Raith
Romulan ships use singularities as engines so they are implody...safer for the rest of the fleet!
/nerd flag a flyin tonite
| 177 |
Gretchen G.Tiger Fri, Sep 23, 2011 10:05:53pm |
re: #176 Jimmi the Grey
Romulan ships use singularities as engines so they are implody...safer for the rest of the fleet!
/nerd flag a flyin tonite
Do they still illegally use a cloaking device?
It's been so long since I've watched TV.
| 178 |
Varek Raith Fri, Sep 23, 2011 10:06:04pm |
NASA says the agency is working to confirm the re-entry location and time. It will provide an update shortly.
| 179 |
lostlakehiker Fri, Sep 23, 2011 10:07:00pm |
re: #35 allegro
Maybe that's an indication that it really does skip generations?
One reason I chose not to reproduce. If that's true I would have had a fucking hedge fund manager or something for a kid.
Well, it's up to you, but the notion that thinking, reflective, wise people shouldn't have children....somehow I'm wondering how that will play out over dozens of generations.
Being all a believer in evolution and stuff, that has to backfire.
| 181 |
Gus Fri, Sep 23, 2011 10:07:18pm |
re: #161 Mich-again
I mix medium strings for the EAD with heavies for the GBE. I gotta have a wound G or it'll break before its time. for this guitar.
Last guitar was a PRS Custom 22. Just like this...
Was stolen from the guy I sold it to. Had to sell it to move out of my little house after the fucking yuppie scum bought the place I lived in. Then I moved to some crappy apartment for almost 3 times the rent. One year later 9/11 happened and the USA turned to shit and remains shit for the most part.
| 182 |
Varek Raith Fri, Sep 23, 2011 10:07:22pm |
re: #177 ggt
Do they still illegally use a cloaking device?
It's been so long since I've watched TV.
It's only illegal for the Feds because they were stupid for signing the one sided Treaty of Algeron.
| 183 |
Targetpractice Fri, Sep 23, 2011 10:08:15pm |
re: #182 Varek Raith
It's only illegal for the Feds because they were stupid for signing the one sided Treaty of Algeron.
Hmm, cloaking devices...or war. Damn, hard decision indeed...
/
| 184 |
Gus Fri, Sep 23, 2011 10:09:35pm |
re: #183 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds
Hmm, cloaking devices...or war. Damn, hard decision indeed...
/
We need it to protect our freedoms.
Now bend over.
//
| 185 |
Gretchen G.Tiger Fri, Sep 23, 2011 10:09:57pm |
re: #182 Varek Raith
It's only illegal for the Feds because they were stupid for signing the one sided Treaty of Algeron.
ah, yeah, I forgot about that.
doesn't stop the Crew of the Enterprise tho does it?
Cloaked devices still have to have tailpipes.
| 186 |
Kragar Fri, Sep 23, 2011 10:10:34pm |
re: #182 Varek Raith
It's only illegal for the Feds because they were stupid for signing the one sided Treaty of Algeron.
This being the same organization which routinely sends its senior officers and section head into dangerous situations before sending a recon or security unit.
| 187 |
Kragar Fri, Sep 23, 2011 10:12:10pm |
re: #185 ggt
ah, yeah, I forgot about that.
doesn't stop the Crew of the Enterprise tho does it?
Cloaked devices still have to have tailpipes.
"Ignite Death Blossom..."
| 188 |
Gretchen G.Tiger Fri, Sep 23, 2011 10:12:19pm |
re: #186 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
This being the same organization which routinely sends its senior officers and section head into dangerous situations before sending a recon or security unit.
Wait, I thought they were the recon unit--no?
| 189 |
Jimmi the Grey Fri, Sep 23, 2011 10:12:33pm |
re: #182 Varek Raith
It's only illegal for the Feds because they were stupid for signing the one sided Treaty of Algeron.
Only partially correct. Federation is not allowed to use on Warships (or exploration ships as that's what the Feds use for warships...mostly. That all changed when the Alpha Quad encountered the Borg). Civvie or unarmed research craft may use. Also, Fed not allowed to 'develop' the tech, but can purchase.
That's what my trekkie friends tell me anyway...
| 190 |
Gretchen G.Tiger Fri, Sep 23, 2011 10:14:09pm |
re: #189 Jimmi the Grey
Only partially correct. Federation is not allowed to use on Warships (or exploration ships as that's what the Feds use for warships...mostly. That all changed when the Alpha Quad encountered the Borg). Civvie or unarmed research craft may use. Also, Fed not allowed to 'develop' the tech, but can purchase.
That's what my trekkie friends tell me anyway...
Well, that certainly makes sense.
| 191 |
Varek Raith Fri, Sep 23, 2011 10:14:45pm |
re: #189 Jimmi the Grey
Only partially correct. Federation is not allowed to use on Warships (or exploration ships as that's what the Feds use for warships...mostly. That all changed when the Alpha Quad encountered the Borg). Civvie or unarmed research craft may use. Also, Fed not allowed to 'develop' the tech, but can purchase.
That's what my trekkie friends tell me anyway...
Really?
Damn, I suck.
:P
| 192 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Fri, Sep 23, 2011 10:15:33pm |
The falling school bus has reminded me of a little something.
I wonder where that space toolbox is.
| 193 |
Gretchen G.Tiger Fri, Sep 23, 2011 10:17:30pm |
re: #192 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
The falling school bus has reminded me of a little something.
I wonder where that space toolbox is.
I missed that. Where did NASA say it fell?
| 194 |
Jimmi the Grey Fri, Sep 23, 2011 10:17:35pm |
| 195 |
Mostly sane, most of the time. Fri, Sep 23, 2011 10:18:00pm |
[Link: webcache.googleusercontent.com...]
Hope you can deal with this. So sorry.
| 196 |
Targetpractice Fri, Sep 23, 2011 10:18:42pm |
re: #189 Jimmi the Grey
Only partially correct. Federation is not allowed to use on Warships (or exploration ships as that's what the Feds use for warships...mostly. That all changed when the Alpha Quad encountered the Borg). Civvie or unarmed research craft may use. Also, Fed not allowed to 'develop' the tech, but can purchase.
That's what my trekkie friends tell me anyway...
The Treaty of Algeron states that Starfleet is not allowed to develop or utilize cloaking devices in any way, with a small amendment made for one exception, namely USS Defiant. And even that exception states that Defiant may only use the cloaking device in the Gamma Quadrant, only for recon missions, and requires that a Romulan officer be aboard to monitor its use.
/(Resident trekker)
| 197 |
Gretchen G.Tiger Fri, Sep 23, 2011 10:19:56pm |
re: #196 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds
The Treaty of Algeron states that Starfleet is not allowed to develop or utilize cloaking devices in any way, with a small amendment made for one exception, namely USS Defiant. And even that exception states that Defiant may only use the cloaking device in the Gamma Quadrant, only for recon missions, and requires that a Romulan officer be aboard to monitor its use.
/(Resident trekker)
Thank you.
I'm so out of the loop.
| 198 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Fri, Sep 23, 2011 10:20:02pm |
re: #195 EmmmieG
Cool! For months afterwards, they had a little tracker on it and I would pull it up and watch it zoom around the world.
Was wondering how long it would orbit. I guess we know now.
| 199 |
Kragar Fri, Sep 23, 2011 10:20:18pm |
| 200 |
Gretchen G.Tiger Fri, Sep 23, 2011 10:20:46pm |
Wait, didn't they use a cloaking device to hide the Enterprise in Golden Gate Park?
| 201 |
prairiefire Fri, Sep 23, 2011 10:20:53pm |
re: #197 ggt
Thank you.
I'm so out of the loop.
The intergalactic worlds are a prevalent theme on LGF.
| 202 |
Daniel Ballard Fri, Sep 23, 2011 10:21:33pm |
re: #193 ggt
I missed that. Where did NASA say it fell?
Nothing official this moment but this is the NASA UARS page
[Link: www.nasa.gov...]
| 203 |
Jimmi the Grey Fri, Sep 23, 2011 10:21:40pm |
re: #196 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds
I will so inform my Trekkie/er friends they are mistaken. And will point at that post when they ask where I got that info.
| 204 |
Gretchen G.Tiger Fri, Sep 23, 2011 10:22:34pm |
re: #202 Rightwingconspirator
Nothing official this moment but this is the NASA UARS page
[Link: www.nasa.gov...]
The school bus?
Miss Frizzle will be so thrilled.
| 205 |
Kragar Fri, Sep 23, 2011 10:22:47pm |
re: #200 ggt
Wait, didn't they use a cloaking device to hide the Enterprise in Golden Gate Park?
No, they had stolen a Klingon ship.
| 206 |
Targetpractice Fri, Sep 23, 2011 10:23:01pm |
re: #200 ggt
Wait, didn't they use a cloaking device to hide the Enterprise in Golden Gate Park?
Twas a Klingon Bird of Prey they used, and was years before the Treaty of Algeron came into being.
Though, the understanding for said Treaty's existence was Word of God from Roddenberry himself. He decided that, by the 24th century, Starfleet shouldn't be skulking around with cloaking devices. So he shoehorned the Treaty in as an explanation for why Starfleet had both a Romulan and Klingon cloaking device on hand, but didn't use them on their own ships.
| 207 |
Jimmi the Grey Fri, Sep 23, 2011 10:23:43pm |
re: #199 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
Wouldn't you be more interested in an unwieldy superweapon with an obvious flaw?
I like to do my thang 'retail' as opposed to 'wholesale'.
*hand gesture* I am not the Sith you are thinking of.
| 208 |
Gretchen G.Tiger Fri, Sep 23, 2011 10:24:16pm |
re: #206 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds
Twas a Klingon Bird of Prey they used, and was years before the Treaty of Algeron came into being.
Though, the understanding for said Treaty's existence was Word of God from Roddenberry himself. He decided that, by the 24th century, Starfleet shouldn't be skulking around with cloaking devices. So he shoehorned the Treaty in as an explanation for why Starfleet had both a Romulan and Klingon cloaking device on hand, but didn't use them on their own ships.
I used to know all this stuff.
What's happened to me?
| 209 |
Kragar Fri, Sep 23, 2011 10:25:56pm |
re: #207 Jimmi the Grey
I like to do my thang 'retail' as opposed to 'wholesale'.
*hand gesture* I am not the Sith you are thinking of.
A member of my retinue has the Pariah gene. The Inquisition would like to have a few words with you, citizen.
| 210 |
prairiefire Fri, Sep 23, 2011 10:26:05pm |
re: #201 prairiefire
The intergalactic worlds are a prevalent theme on LGF.
I would add the not real intergalactic worlds, but then I would be a smoking pair of empty pajamas.
| 211 |
Gretchen G.Tiger Fri, Sep 23, 2011 10:26:49pm |
I swear there was an episode in which the cloaked the Enterprise.
It was a huge drain on power and the Crew in the Engineer Bay was freaking out (as usual).
| 212 |
Targetpractice Fri, Sep 23, 2011 10:27:44pm |
re: #211 ggt
I swear there was an episode in which the cloaked the Enterprise.
It was a huge drain on power and the Crew in the Engineer Bay was freaking out (as usual).
Original Series or Next Generation?
| 213 |
Varek Raith Fri, Sep 23, 2011 10:28:29pm |
re: #200 ggt
Wait, didn't they use a cloaking device to hide the Enterprise in Golden Gate Park?
That was a Klingon Bird of Prey.
;)
| 214 |
Kragar Fri, Sep 23, 2011 10:28:34pm |
re: #211 ggt
I swear there was an episode in which the cloaked the Enterprise.
It was a huge drain on power and the Crew in the Engineer Bay was freaking out (as usual).
"I'm giving her all she's got Captain, but I don't know how much longer she can take it."
| 215 |
Gretchen G.Tiger Fri, Sep 23, 2011 10:28:36pm |
Anyone read this book?
very cool about inter-spacial worlds. I understood none of the science, and it's still one of my favorite books.
| 216 |
Gretchen G.Tiger Fri, Sep 23, 2011 10:29:03pm |
re: #214 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
"I'm giving her all she's got Captain, but I don't know how much longer she can take it."
No, no, it wasn't Scotty. It was TNG or VOY
| 217 |
Targetpractice Fri, Sep 23, 2011 10:29:52pm |
| 219 |
Varek Raith Fri, Sep 23, 2011 10:32:53pm |
| 221 |
Jimmi the Grey Fri, Sep 23, 2011 10:33:24pm |
re: #211 ggt
I swear there was an episode in which the cloaked the Enterprise.
It was a huge drain on power and the Crew in the Engineer Bay was freaking out (as usual).
Was an episode of NextGen. They found Cmdr Riker's old ship USS Pegasus which had been doing illegal experiments on a phased cloaking device. Enterprise went into an asteroid to investigate and got stuck (baddies closed the tunnel behind them. Had to install and use to phase through the asteroid to get out.
| 222 |
Varek Raith Fri, Sep 23, 2011 10:33:28pm |
Still no confirmation on if the UARS is down.
| 223 |
Targetpractice Fri, Sep 23, 2011 10:34:41pm |
re: #199 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
Wouldn't you be more interested in an unwieldy superweapon with an obvious flaw?
*snort* That "technological terror" has nothing on the various doom weapons that Trek has produced over the years.
| 224 |
Gretchen G.Tiger Fri, Sep 23, 2011 10:37:42pm |
re: #217 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds
Ah, yes, I barely remember that.
Interphasic --that was the key.
| 225 |
SanFranciscoZionist Fri, Sep 23, 2011 10:38:12pm |
re: #205 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
No, they had stolen a Klingon ship.
But yes, they cloaked it.
I wonder how many Frisbees bounced, how many dogs knocked themselves silly...
| 227 |
Gretchen G.Tiger Fri, Sep 23, 2011 10:39:04pm |
re: #223 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds
*snort* That "technological terror" has nothing on the various doom weapons that Trek has produced over the years.
This is the coolest, IMHO.
not technical at all.
| 228 |
Jimmi the Grey Fri, Sep 23, 2011 10:39:36pm |
re: #209 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
A member of my retinue has the Pariah gene. The Inquisition would like to have a few words with you, citizen.
Considering I currently look like a militant member of the Eldar Supremacists Movement, they probably have several reasons to want 'a few words' with me.
;)
| 229 |
Gretchen G.Tiger Fri, Sep 23, 2011 10:39:37pm |
re: #225 SanFranciscoZionist
But yes, they cloaked it.
I wonder how many Frisbees bounced, how many dogs knocked themselves silly...
How many stoned San Franciscan's thought they were hallucinating. . . .
| 231 |
Gretchen G.Tiger Fri, Sep 23, 2011 10:40:39pm |
Skee-Ball for iPhone is not a productive use of my time.
| 233 |
Targetpractice Fri, Sep 23, 2011 10:42:03pm |
re: #227 ggt
This is the coolest, IMHO.
not technical at all.
You have not truly enjoyed Shakespeare until you have experienced him in the original Klingon.
/
| 234 |
Gus Fri, Sep 23, 2011 10:42:35pm |
BRB. Gonna smoke a cig. Throw rocks at cars and break into a house.
| 235 |
Kragar Fri, Sep 23, 2011 10:43:46pm |
re: #223 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds
*snort* That "technological terror" has nothing on the various doom weapons that Trek has produced over the years.
| 236 |
Varek Raith Fri, Sep 23, 2011 10:44:02pm |
re: #223 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds
*snort* That "technological terror" has nothing on the various doom weapons that Trek has produced over the years.
TRI-LITHIUM TORPEDO!
| 237 |
Kragar Fri, Sep 23, 2011 10:45:40pm |
| 238 |
Targetpractice Fri, Sep 23, 2011 10:45:58pm |
re: #235 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
I see your bet and raise you a ship that can wipe your entire civilization from history.
| 239 |
Gretchen G.Tiger Fri, Sep 23, 2011 10:46:31pm |
re: #238 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds
I see your bet and raise you a ship that can wipe your entire civilization from history.
All you need is 1 Genesis Device.
| 240 |
Kragar Fri, Sep 23, 2011 10:48:27pm |
re: #238 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds
I see your bet and raise you a ship that can wipe your entire civilization from history.
Which managed to wipe itself out of existence as well.
| 241 |
Targetpractice Fri, Sep 23, 2011 10:49:21pm |
re: #240 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
Which managed to wipe itself out of existence as well.
They fraked with Kathryn Janeway. Their end was inevitable.
/
| 242 |
Kragar Fri, Sep 23, 2011 10:51:20pm |
re: #241 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds
They fraked with Kathryn Janeway. Their end was inevitable.
/
| 243 |
Targetpractice Fri, Sep 23, 2011 10:53:32pm |
| 244 |
Kragar Fri, Sep 23, 2011 10:54:30pm |
| 245 |
Gretchen G.Tiger Fri, Sep 23, 2011 10:55:21pm |
| 247 |
Gretchen G.Tiger Fri, Sep 23, 2011 10:59:21pm |
| 249 |
Targetpractice Fri, Sep 23, 2011 11:01:56pm |
re: #248 Gus 802
No, I'm not that bad. If anything, I actually feel rather nervous at conventions. If only because I've seen some rather...disturbing images from past ones and have no desire whatsoever to witness them in person.
| 250 |
Varek Raith Fri, Sep 23, 2011 11:06:24pm |
We're still waiting for #UARS Done! confirmation. If debris fell on land (and that's still a BIG if), Canada is most likely area.
| 251 |
Page 3 in the Binder of Women Fri, Sep 23, 2011 11:06:40pm |
What's the update on the space bus?
| 252 |
Varek Raith Fri, Sep 23, 2011 11:07:00pm |
RT @SpaceTrails: Confirmed debris falling over okotoks, Alberta. Canada.#UARS
| 253 |
Gretchen G.Tiger Fri, Sep 23, 2011 11:07:45pm |
re: #251 Stanley Sea
What's the update on the space bus?
Miss Frizzle was quoted as saying, "Take Chances, Make Mistakes!"
| 254 |
Gus Fri, Sep 23, 2011 11:15:50pm |
re: #247 ggt
You don't like us anymore?
It's nothing specific. Just an overall feeling. Was thinking about Balloon Juice. Either that or just leaving for good from the internet. I'm spinning my wheels. Not fulfilling really. Miss Iceweasel being here during the night. Watching some people get their pages almost automatically put on the featured page. Updinging people that never upding me. Etc.
| 255 |
Gus Fri, Sep 23, 2011 11:16:57pm |
Emailing certain people an never getting a response. Cough. Cough. Cough.
| 257 |
Targetpractice Fri, Sep 23, 2011 11:25:27pm |
Well, I for one would hate to see you leave, Gus. If nothin' else, you provide a kind of wit and humor that would be sorely missed here.
| 258 |
Varek Raith Fri, Sep 23, 2011 11:25:54pm |
re: #254 Gus 802
It's nothing specific. Just an overall feeling. Was thinking about Balloon Juice. Either that or just leaving for good from the internet. I'm spinning my wheels. Not fulfilling really. Miss Iceweasel being here during the night. Watching some people get their pages almost automatically put on the featured page. Updinging people that never upding me. Etc.
:(
Well, good luck to you!
Though, I hope you stay.
:)
| 259 |
Gretchen G.Tiger Fri, Sep 23, 2011 11:27:45pm |
re: #257 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds
Well, I for one would hate to see you leave, Gus. If nothin' else, you provide a kind of wit and humor that would be sorely missed here.
I second that.
| 260 |
Gretchen G.Tiger Fri, Sep 23, 2011 11:28:47pm |
Well, I have to sleep
Good Night and Good Luck
| 262 |
Targetpractice Fri, Sep 23, 2011 11:39:15pm |
re: #261 Varek Raith
Still nothing on UARS.
Knowing my luck, the damn thing will come down right on my front lawn. For bonus points, it'll come right down on my Explorer.
| 263 |
Varek Raith Fri, Sep 23, 2011 11:40:07pm |
re: #262 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds
Knowing my luck, the damn thing will come down right on my front lawn. For bonus points, it'll come right down on my Explorer.
With the "NASA UARS" logo burned out to read "ASS".
:)
| 264 |
Kragar Fri, Sep 23, 2011 11:40:08pm |
Gaddafi's 'dead' child at play in home video
MISRATA, Libya: The first film footage of the adopted daughter of Muammar Gaddafi, whom the dictator claimed had been killed in an American bombing raid in 1986, is part of a remarkable series of clips of the Gaddafi family at play while on a camping holiday outside Tripoli in the late 1980s.
It shows Hana Gaddafi kicking a football and being cuddled by her father and was filmed about three years after the raid on the Bab al-Azizia compound in Tripoli that Gaddafi claimed had killed the young girl. In the video, other members of the family can be clearly heard calling her by her name.
The girl in the footage also resembles photographs of an adult woman named Hana Gaddafi whose educational certificates were found in a bedroom in the Gaddafi compound after the fall of the regime.
| 265 |
Varek Raith Fri, Sep 23, 2011 11:42:32pm |
| 266 |
Targetpractice Fri, Sep 23, 2011 11:52:30pm |
| 267 |
Kragar Sat, Sep 24, 2011 12:02:08am |
| 268 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sat, Sep 24, 2011 12:09:24am |
| 269 |
AK-47% Sat, Sep 24, 2011 12:26:24am |
Say what you want about the death penalty, but this is CRUEL AND INHUMANE: [Link: www.bbc.co.uk...]
| 270 |
AK-47% Sat, Sep 24, 2011 12:44:57am |
re: #96 Shiplord Kirel
We also had lead soldiers made from genuine brain-rotting lead, Lincoln Logs with some kind of toxic varnish that tasted awful but was apparently addictive, and lead azide caps for toy pistols.
Ah, the good old days.
And I grew up sitting three feet in front of a 1963-model color TV that probably sent out enough radiation to roast a chicken. But somehow I managed to father four healthy children...
| 271 |
OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin Sat, Sep 24, 2011 12:56:11am |
re: #269 ralphieboy
Say what you want about the death penalty, but this is CRUEL AND INHUMANE: [Link: www.bbc.co.uk...]
Two more reasons why the bloodthirsty among us love.it. ...
| 274 |
(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Sat, Sep 24, 2011 2:23:26am |
re: #269 ralphieboy
Say what you want about the death penalty, but this is CRUEL AND INHUMANE: [Link: www.bbc.co.uk...]
Reminds me of this:
“I did not get my SpaghettiOs, I got spaghetti. I want the press to know this.”
Last words of Thomas J. Grasso, executed by lethal injection in Oklahoma (1995)
| 275 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Sat, Sep 24, 2011 2:27:47am |
re: #264 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
It's possible he adopted another child and called her the same name.
| 276 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Sat, Sep 24, 2011 2:35:54am |
Well, fuck. Putin officially goes for the 3rd term.
| 277 |
(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Sat, Sep 24, 2011 2:46:20am |
re: #276 Sergey Romanov
Well, fuck. Putin officially goes for the 3rd term.
My condolences.
In other news, I missed this news:
Bundeskanzlerin Angela Merkel bekräftigte derweil, dass die Entscheidungen des Euro-Fonds zum "Kernrecht des Parlaments" zählten. Die Mitwirkung des Bundestags dürfe die Funktionsfähigkeit des EFSF aber nicht beeinträchtigen, warnte sie. "Insofern werden wir Wege finden, wie die parlamentarische Mitbestimmung so gestaltet ist, dass sie trotzdem auch marktkonform ist."
http://www.n-tv.de/politik/Union-bittet-alle-ins-Rettungsboot-article4197121.html
Translated: Merkel warns that the operability of the EFSF must not be impacted by the involvement of the German parliament. Hence, she says, her administration will find ways to shape parliamentary participation in a way that it is going to be "nevertheless kept in line with the markets".
I'm illin'.
| 278 |
boxhead Sat, Sep 24, 2011 2:59:59am |
re: #269 ralphieboy
Say what you want about the death penalty, but this is CRUEL AND INHUMANE: [Link: www.bbc.co.uk...]
Matthew 25:41-46 (New International Version (English Translation))
41"Then he will say to those on his right, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink,
43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.'
44"They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?'
45"He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'
46"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."
Mahatma Gandhi said "You can judge a society by how they treat their weakest members."
Certain portions of USA does not do so well at this.
BTW, I changed one word in the quote from Matthew. It seemed appropriate. :)
| 279 |
AK-47% Sat, Sep 24, 2011 3:06:41am |
re: #276 Sergey Romanov
Well, fuck. Putin officially goes for the 3rd term.
That was the plan all along; Medvedyev was just a place-holder until Putin was eligible again.
| 280 |
AK-47% Sat, Sep 24, 2011 3:08:49am |
re: #271 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin
Two more reasons why the bloodthirsty among us love.it. ...
What they really ought to do is to let death-row inmates request a last meal, and then place it out just of reach outside the bars of their cells.
/
| 281 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Sat, Sep 24, 2011 3:10:13am |
re: #279 ralphieboy
That was the plan all along; Medvedyev was just a place-holder until Putin was eligible again.
That wasn't clear starting from about a year ago until today. There were quite a lot of signals that M wanted to stay. And he probably did. But that wasn't meant to be ;)
| 282 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Sat, Sep 24, 2011 3:10:40am |
re: #280 ralphieboy
What they really ought to do is to let death-row inmates request a last meal, and then place it out just of reach outside the bars of their cells.
/
I'm pretty sure in Florida, there is a $20 limit on food for the last meal. Not kidding.
Morning Honcos.
| 283 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Sat, Sep 24, 2011 3:11:18am |
re: #281 Sergey Romanov
(And I thought Russia had an quantum of hope for a moment. Oh well.)
| 284 |
boxhead Sat, Sep 24, 2011 3:11:34am |
re: #282 Cannadian Club Akbar
I'm pretty sure in Florida, there is a $20 limit on food for the last meal. Not kidding.
Morning Honcos.
The death penalty needs to go away.....
| 285 |
boxhead Sat, Sep 24, 2011 3:12:08am |
re: #283 Sergey Romanov
(And I thought Russia had an quantum of hope for a moment. Oh well.)
Likewise USA... :p
| 286 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Sat, Sep 24, 2011 3:12:39am |
| 287 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Sat, Sep 24, 2011 3:14:06am |
re: #285 boxhead
Likewise USA... :p
If a Rethuglican comes into power... A full flush of darkness. ;)
| 288 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Sat, Sep 24, 2011 3:16:54am |
re: #284 boxhead
The death penalty needs to go away...
If you can make sure that these guys get an 8x10 cell, books but no TV, no radio, 1 hour in the yard, and no commissary, that's fine. But someone will piss and moan about their lack of living conditions, wanting to get them into general population, etc.
| 289 |
boxhead Sat, Sep 24, 2011 3:17:15am |
re: #286 Sergey Romanov
Yep. It's a no-brainer, really.
The ability for one person to look at another person as if they are not a person displays boarder line sociopath like behavior.
I don't have that problem... Loads of others, but not that one.
| 290 |
boxhead Sat, Sep 24, 2011 3:20:06am |
re: #288 Cannadian Club Akbar
If you can make sure that these guys get an 8x10 cell, books but no TV, no radio, 1 hour in the yard, and no commissary, that's fine. But someone will piss and moan about their lack of living conditions, wanting to get them into general population, etc.
Not sure if I am down for 23 hours locked up, 1 hour out. Is really that difficult to house lifers in a normal routine? Rehabilitation should be the goal.
| 291 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Sat, Sep 24, 2011 3:21:42am |
re: #290 boxhead
Not sure if I am down for 23 hours locked up, 1 hour out. Is really that difficult to house lifers in a normal routine? Rehabilitation should be the goal.
Rehab for what? They're not going anywhere. (I'm talking about the 1st degree murderers) Why should they get to enjoy life after taking one?
| 292 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Sat, Sep 24, 2011 3:22:50am |
re: #289 boxhead
It's not about abilities and all sorts of psychological thingamajigs. It's about a state not murdering innocent people along with criminals.
| 293 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Sat, Sep 24, 2011 3:26:47am |
re: #292 Sergey Romanov
Hey, I may have asked you this before, so apologies if I have. Have you ever heard of Black Dolphin prison? Those fuckers run a tight ship there.
| 294 |
boxhead Sat, Sep 24, 2011 3:27:04am |
re: #291 Cannadian Club Akbar
Rehab for what? They're not going anywhere. (I'm talking about the 1st degree murderers) Why should they get to enjoy life after taking one?
Because errors are made in convicting people. 23/1 lockup will destroy the mind. What state will the person be in after 5 years of such lock up. If the conviction is overturned, you have a ruined, innocent life. You might as well kill them.
| 295 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Sat, Sep 24, 2011 3:28:51am |
re: #293 Cannadian Club Akbar
Sure. There are, I think, 5 prisons for lifers here.
| 296 |
boxhead Sat, Sep 24, 2011 3:29:26am |
re: #292 Sergey Romanov
It's not about abilities and all sorts of psychological thingamajigs. It's about a state not murdering innocent people along with criminals.
yes... what I was saying is that I don't have the make up to do such a thing. A co-worker once told me she was OK with an innocent dying as long if we kept the death penalty going. That is a belief that is very foreign to me.
| 297 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Sat, Sep 24, 2011 3:32:07am |
re: #296 boxhead
Well, to such people I would say, "I hope you are in that spot one day".
| 298 |
boxhead Sat, Sep 24, 2011 3:33:20am |
re: #297 Sergey Romanov
Well, to such people I would say, "I hope you are in that spot one day".
That was basically my reply... I was rather shocked by what she said....
| 299 |
boxhead Sat, Sep 24, 2011 3:46:59am |
well, it appears this house has emptied. night all....
| 300 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Sat, Sep 24, 2011 3:47:05am |
Gaskin, 20, was killed after leaning out of the passenger window of the truck Jeckel was driving, and hitting her head on mailboxes,
A police report said Jeckel's blood alcohol level was 0.10 or 0.12, higher than the 0.08 level at which the state considers drivers impaired. Angela Gaskin's blood alcohol level was 0.22.
...
In an interview with lawyers, an emergency room nurse said that when everyone first came to the hospital, Jeckel said he took his hand off the wheel of his truck when Gaskin leaned out, in an effort to help her by pulling her back in. But while doing this, the truck swerved to the right.
After learning this, "we couldn't prove his criminal responsibility beyond a reasonable doubt," Rosenwasser said
"Because had she not been leaning out the window, he would not have drifted to the right and she would not have hit her head on the mailboxes," he said.
[Link: www.tampabay.com...]
| 301 |
(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Sat, Sep 24, 2011 4:11:04am |
Perfect late-night music for insomniacs: Pharmakon @ NYC's Red Light District, Feb 26 2011
| 302 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Sat, Sep 24, 2011 4:27:00am |
Baylor officials claim smoking has a lot to do with the high cost of health care. The FDA estimates smoking costs American employers some $200 billion a year in lost productivity and increased medical costs.
....
Smoking was banned at all Baylor campuses four years ago. But, can they legally refuse to hire smokers?
“Absolutely they can,” said Dallas employment attorney Thomas Brandt. “People think well, that’s discriminatory, but really there are only certain factors that you cannot consider when making hiring decisions.”
Things like race, gender, ethnicity or national origin cannot be considered when hiring an employee.
...
If increased medical costs are a consideration for banning employee tobacco use, then ponder this: obesity is also a national health crisis. According to the CDC obesity costs employers some $147 billion a year.
[Link: dfw.cbslocal.com...]
Wonder if they hire fat people.
| 303 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Sat, Sep 24, 2011 4:30:30am |
Authorities say Kieu spiked her 60-year-old husband's tofu dinner on July 11, then tied his hands and feet to the bed after he went to lie down. Authorities say Kieu cut off his penis as he woke
[Link: www.huffingtonpost.com...]
Another reason I won't eat tofu.
///
| 304 |
Obdicut Sat, Sep 24, 2011 4:33:13am |
re: #302 Cannadian Club Akbar
That whole road of not hiring people because of smoking is an evil and depressing one. Down that path leads to not hiring people because they have sex out of wedlock, or because they're married and might have kids, which are medically expensive too.
Sure, smoking causes a lot of health problems. They don't go away if those people don't get hired.
Selfish jackasses.
| 305 |
Decatur Deb Sat, Sep 24, 2011 4:34:03am |
re: #303 Cannadian Club Akbar
Authorities say Kieu spiked her 60-year-old husband's tofu dinner on July 11, then tied his hands and feet to the bed after he went to lie down. Authorities say Kieu cut off his penis as he woke
[Link: www.huffingtonpost.com...]
Another reason I won't eat tofu.
///
Empire of the Senseless.
[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]
| 306 |
Decatur Deb Sat, Sep 24, 2011 4:34:45am |
re: #304 Obdicut
That whole road of not hiring people because of smoking is an evil and depressing one. Down that path leads to not hiring people because they have sex out of wedlock, or because they're married and might have kids, which are medically expensive too.
Sure, smoking causes a lot of health problems. They don't go away if those people don't get hired.
Selfish jackasses.
The employment/insurance nexus goes away with Single Payer. (Not the second-hand smoke=unsafe workplace issue, however).
| 307 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Sat, Sep 24, 2011 4:38:47am |
re: #304 Obdicut
I wonder if the masking agents you can buy at GNC will help you pass a drug test on nicotine. I know it works to mask pot. (I have brothers)
| 308 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Sat, Sep 24, 2011 4:39:15am |
re: #303 Cannadian Club Akbar
Heh. I've never eaten tofu. Does it really taste bad?
| 309 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Sat, Sep 24, 2011 4:40:50am |
re: #308 Sergey Romanov
Heh. I've never eaten tofu. Does it really taste bad?
No idea. Just hand over a pork chop and we can talk about it.
/
| 310 |
Decatur Deb Sat, Sep 24, 2011 4:41:35am |
re: #308 Sergey Romanov
Heh. I've never eaten tofu. Does it really taste bad?
Hardly tastes at all, which is sort of bad.
| 311 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Sat, Sep 24, 2011 4:41:59am |
re: #309 Cannadian Club Akbar
No idea. Just hand over a pork chop and we can talk about it.
/
Good idea.
| 312 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Sat, Sep 24, 2011 4:42:31am |
re: #310 Decatur Deb
Hardly tastes at all, which is sort of bad.
So it's eaten only for its nutritional value?
| 313 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Sat, Sep 24, 2011 4:42:46am |
re: #310 Decatur Deb
Hardly tastes at all, which is sort of bad.
But I wonder if it's like a mushroom which will take on the taste of stuff you're cooking it with.
| 314 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Sat, Sep 24, 2011 4:43:48am |
re: #312 Sergey Romanov
So it's eaten only for its nutritional value?
[Link: vegetarian.about.com...]
| 315 |
Obdicut Sat, Sep 24, 2011 4:43:59am |
re: #308 Sergey Romanov
My sesame-crusted garlic tofu with spring vegetables doesn't.
A simple hunk of tofu, though, tastes rotten.
Also, it's a highly-processed food, so I always laugh at the people eating tons of it for health.
| 316 |
Obdicut Sat, Sep 24, 2011 4:45:05am |
re: #312 Sergey Romanov
So it's eaten only for its nutritional value?
It doesn't have very good nutritional value. It actually negatively impacts the absorption of a lot of vitamins.
Fermented soy is good for you, though.
| 317 |
Decatur Deb Sat, Sep 24, 2011 4:45:10am |
re: #312 Sergey Romanov
So it's eaten only for its nutritional value?
re: #313 Cannadian Club Akbar
But I wonder if it's like a mushroom which will take on the taste of stuff you're cooking it with.
Yes to both. It's virtue seems to be that it is easily disguised, healthy, and cheap. Possibly in Japan they see it entirely differently, with great passion for subtle differences.
| 318 |
Decatur Deb Sat, Sep 24, 2011 4:46:47am |
This is going to revive the Turduckfen thread, isn't it?
| 319 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Sat, Sep 24, 2011 4:47:29am |
re: #318 Decatur Deb
This is going to revive the Turduckfen thread, isn't it?
We have to make fun of tofu before FBV shows up!!
/
| 320 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Sat, Sep 24, 2011 4:50:14am |
I could honestly give up meat for a day, prolly two, but that would mean eating beans. So giving up dairy on the same day wouldn't work. Think bean burrito.
| 321 |
Decatur Deb Sat, Sep 24, 2011 4:50:21am |
Dog is stretched in front of its leash sighing and crying. Needs moar camellias. BBL
| 322 |
Obdicut Sat, Sep 24, 2011 4:56:34am |
re: #317 Decatur Deb
Unfermented soy tended to be consumed in very small quantieis in Japan up until recently. Eating gigantic amounts of it is a very new phenomenon.
Fermentation kills off a lot of the stranger stuff in soy, that has negative effects.
A lot of the commercial soy stuff-- soy treated to make it taste like chicken or do buffalo wings or whatever-- is as bad for you as a big mac. Not in terms of fat content, but in terms of it's not real food, it's incredibly highly processed with a taste that doesn't match its content so your body produces the wrong stuff to try to deal with it.
| 323 |
(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Sat, Sep 24, 2011 5:13:06am |
re: #322 Obdicut
I meant to ask: Do you know a seller of non-plastic childrens' toys in the US? If so, can you recommend one?
| 324 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Sat, Sep 24, 2011 5:13:23am |
No Earth-shattering kaboom? Where was the Earth-shattering kaboom?
| 325 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Sat, Sep 24, 2011 5:17:02am |
re: #323 000G
I meant to ask: Do you know a seller of non-plastic childrens' toys in the US? If so, can you recommend one?
| 326 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Sat, Sep 24, 2011 5:17:42am |
re: #322 Obdicut
I've wondered about that. Morningstar, Quorn, Tofurkey, those things are bad for you?
Oh, shit.
I eat that stuff all the time!
| 327 |
Obdicut Sat, Sep 24, 2011 5:18:47am |
re: #323 000G
I meant to ask: Do you know a seller of non-plastic childrens' toys in the US?
Sure. Why non-plastic?
For blocks, these guys are great. They also do easels and suchlike:
[Link: www.bekainc.com...]
For trucks and trains and stuff these guys are good:
[Link: www.dandmewoodtoys.com...]
I haven't investigated this place:
[Link: all-americantoys.com...]
But it looks alright. They promise all American sourcing and construction. It's not exclusively wooden.
| 328 |
Obdicut Sat, Sep 24, 2011 5:23:05am |
re: #326 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
well, it depends. Morningstar has done a lot to make sure they stay healthy. I respect them as an idealistic company. The others I don't know about. But yeah, lots of soy isn't any better for you than lots of bread or lots of polished rice or any other highly processed food. So when you eat that stuff, you're kind of eating tons of bread.
Have you read Michael Pollan's "In Defense of Food" yet?
| 329 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Sat, Sep 24, 2011 5:27:18am |
re: #304 Obdicut
My wife took her first corporate health assessment last week. She's diabetic, has high blood pressure, and won't die. (did I say that out loud?)
She scored 25 points higher than any woman that she works with. She was the healthiest person in her department.
They're going to use the scoring to do all kinds of shit.
| 330 |
Decatur Deb Sat, Sep 24, 2011 5:27:22am |
re: #323 000G
I meant to ask: Do you know a seller of non-plastic childrens' toys in the US? If so, can you recommend one?
Ah, a chance to plug original, artistic, prize-winning (pricey) toys made by an old artist friend. Site is up, but haven't used it in a few years.
[Link: www.underthelamb.com...]
| 331 |
The Left Sat, Sep 24, 2011 5:31:23am |
re: #326 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
I've wondered about that. Morningstar, Quorn, Tofurkey, those things are bad for you?
Oh, shit.
I eat that stuff all the time!
I love Quorn!
| 332 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Sat, Sep 24, 2011 5:32:53am |
re: #331 iceweasel
Me too, but Obdi sez it's gonna kill me.
| 333 |
The Left Sat, Sep 24, 2011 5:33:35am |
re: #332 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
Me too, but Obdi sez it's gonna kill me.
Who wants to live forever?!? /
| 334 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Sat, Sep 24, 2011 5:33:55am |
re: #332 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
Me too, but Obdi sez it's gonna kill me.
Only if your wife doesn't get to you first.
/
| 335 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Sat, Sep 24, 2011 5:35:14am |
re: #328 Obdicut
Eat the food that your ancestors would recognize? That the guy?
| 336 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Sat, Sep 24, 2011 5:36:23am |
| 337 |
Obdicut Sat, Sep 24, 2011 5:36:30am |
re: #332 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
Everything kills you. But in general, eating unrefined stuff-- like buying peppers and onions and cooking them up in a delightful manner-- is much healthier than buying an uber-refined massively processed thing like a Quorn burger.
I understand that with vegetarianism protein is difficult to come by, though.
| 338 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Sat, Sep 24, 2011 5:39:33am |
re: #335 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
"Never studied..."
-Peter Venkman
| 339 |
(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Sat, Sep 24, 2011 5:45:40am |
re: #327 Obdicut
Sure. Why non-plastic?
It's a cultural thing, mostly. Also, I believe there is the belief that accidental digestion of wood is less unhealthy than accidental digestion of plastic.
| 340 |
(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Sat, Sep 24, 2011 5:46:02am |
re: #330 Decatur Deb
Ah, a chance to plug original, artistic, prize-winning (pricey) toys made by an old artist friend. Site is up, but haven't used it in a few years.
[Link: www.underthelamb.com...]
Thank you, and thank you to Obdicut for sharing, too!
| 341 |
Decatur Deb Sat, Sep 24, 2011 5:49:22am |
re: #337 Obdicut
...snip..
I understand that with vegetarianism protein is difficult to come by, though.
But with cannibalism you can eat food that you recognize.
| 342 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Sat, Sep 24, 2011 5:59:02am |
re: #341 Decatur Deb
But with cannibalism you can eat food that you recognize.
Hunger will make people do amazing things. I mean, the proof of that is cannibalism. What do they say? You know, they’re eating . . . “This is good. Who is this? I like this person.” I would think the hardest thing about being a cannibal is trying to get some really solid straight sleep through the night sleep. You’d think with any little noise they’d go “What is it? . . . Who’s that? . . . Who’s there? . . . Is somebody there? . . . What do you want? . . . You look hungry. Are you hungry? . . . Get out of here.”
Jerry Seinfeld.
| 343 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Sat, Sep 24, 2011 6:00:49am |
Reading a link supplied by Alouette - [Link: www.cracked.com...] - I think - that's what they do with all the regulations. What if Bachmanns of this world had their way? Oh yeah, I guess the invisible hand of the free market would tell the savvy customer what producers are good* and what are bad (plus a bonus handjob).
* - assuming any are good, that is.
| 345 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Sat, Sep 24, 2011 6:01:19am |
One of the joys of seeing different people every day in your job.
Wearing what you wore yesterday!
Have a great day, Knuckleheads!
| 346 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Sat, Sep 24, 2011 6:16:48am |
| 347 |
Decatur Deb Sat, Sep 24, 2011 6:21:32am |
| 348 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Sat, Sep 24, 2011 6:22:47am |
re: #347 Decatur Deb
wha
| 349 |
Decatur Deb Sat, Sep 24, 2011 6:24:45am |
re: #348 Sergey Romanov
Rainbow pants give me heartburn.
| 350 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Sat, Sep 24, 2011 6:26:15am |
| 351 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Sat, Sep 24, 2011 6:27:14am |
re: #350 Cannadian Club Akbar
Umm, what is their function then? I can't think of one.
| 352 |
Shropshire_Slasher Sat, Sep 24, 2011 6:27:35am |
re: #121 Shiplord Kirel
From what I understand, provider of meals got pissed cuz the inmate didn't eat his last meal. I wouldn't either, do you wanna go to hell with a full stomach, eternal damnation without relief you know!
| 353 |
RogueOne Sat, Sep 24, 2011 6:31:16am |
re: #352 Shropshire_Slasher
I'd want 2 blondes and a redhead for my last meal....I wonder if they deliver.
| 355 |
(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Sat, Sep 24, 2011 6:34:03am |
| 356 |
Shropshire_Slasher Sat, Sep 24, 2011 6:34:36am |
I'm trying to get thru this video of Kim Delaney:
[Link: www.nbcphiladelphia.com...]
Seems she had a few of something, here eyes are going in different directions! Maybe she forgot her glasses.
| 357 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Sat, Sep 24, 2011 6:36:26am |
re: #356 Shropshire_Slasher
I really used to like her up until about 8 years ago.
| 358 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Sat, Sep 24, 2011 6:40:08am |
re: #357 Cannadian Club Akbar
I really used to like her up until about 8 years ago.
Here's why.
/I'm shallow.
[Link: www.mugshots.com...]
| 359 |
compound idaho Sat, Sep 24, 2011 6:45:05am |
re: #329 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
My wife took her first corporate health assessment last week. She's diabetic, has high blood pressure, and won't die. (did I say that out loud?)
She scored 25 points higher than any woman that she works with. She was the healthiest person in her department.
They're going to use the scoring to do all kinds of shit.
As a former Dept. of Energy employee, I recently received a physical from a DOE doctor. They want to follow the health of former workers. Seems like a good idea.
Months later I receive a letter that recommends I should consult my own physician regarding a low heart rate. The doc, the nurse, the tech, and the health history and background forms did not ask if I get any exercise. My next marathon one week from today.
Makes you wonder if being in shape helped or hurt my score.
| 360 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Sat, Sep 24, 2011 6:47:38am |
re: #359 compound idaho
Even I know that people who are in shape (not just lifting weights but cardio as well) have a lower heart rate. And I'm an idiot.
| 361 |
Shropshire_Slasher Sat, Sep 24, 2011 6:50:34am |
re: #360 Cannadian Club Akbar
upding for being an idiot
| 362 |
Decatur Deb Sat, Sep 24, 2011 6:51:53am |
re: #359 compound idaho
As a former Dept. of Energy employee, I recently received a physical from a DOE doctor. They want to follow the health of former workers. Seems like a good idea.
Months later I receive a letter that recommends I should consult my own physician regarding a low heart rate. The doc, the nurse, the tech, and the health history and background forms did not ask if I get any exercise. My next marathon one week from today.
Makes you wonder if being in shape helped or hurt my score.
Just an effect of screening to simple standard. Soldiers in unusually superb physical condition frequently failed the Army's periodic height/weight weigh-ins because of their muscle mass. They had to jump through a few hoops to validate their status.
| 363 |
Dark_Falcon Sat, Sep 24, 2011 6:54:06am |
Morning, all. Sorry I wasn't here last night, I was in a very good mood but fairly tired. I worked quite hard and got my first sale of the month with a second one confirmed. I only need one more to make quota and given my prospects I'm sure I'll get it.
What's up?
| 364 |
Decatur Deb Sat, Sep 24, 2011 6:55:12am |
re: #363 Dark_Falcon
Morning, all. Sorry I wasn't here last night, I was in a very good mood but fairly tired. I worked quite hard and got my first sale of the month with a second one confirmed. I only need one more to make quota and given my prospects I'm sure I'll get it.
What's up?
Not UARS.
| 365 |
Dark_Falcon Sat, Sep 24, 2011 6:57:44am |
| 366 |
darthstar Sat, Sep 24, 2011 6:57:58am |
Mornin' everyone. The D-bags won the West...that sucks. But August killed the Giants and you just can't recover from losing 17 of 22 late in the season.
Well, Arizona is still stuck with John McCain, so fuck them. (that's me showing sportsmanship)
| 367 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Sat, Sep 24, 2011 6:58:25am |
re: #363 Dark_Falcon
Hey, DF. Congrats on good news.
| 368 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Sat, Sep 24, 2011 6:58:32am |
re: #363 Dark_Falcon
I had to skip applying for a job yesterday to go do paperwork for a temp job. (time restraints) Temp job is 2-3 weeks, $14/hr. I'll go apply for the other job Monday afternoon. And props on the sales.
| 371 |
RogueOne Sat, Sep 24, 2011 6:59:34am |
re: #359 compound idaho
I can understand the need for screening in some positions, like what I would expect some in the DOE to experience, but otherwise "corporate" health screenings make me nervous. I think it's naive to believe the information gathered won't be used in a negative manner or even that it will be kept in a confidential manner.
| 372 |
Obdicut Sat, Sep 24, 2011 7:00:04am |
re: #369 Dark_Falcon
Except for all the many ways the he isn't. For example, picking Palin as his VP.
| 373 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Sat, Sep 24, 2011 7:00:29am |
re: #366 darthstar
Mornin' everyone. The D-bags won the West...that sucks. But August killed the Giants and you just can't recover from losing 17 of 22 late in the season.
Well, Arizona is still stuck with John McCain, so fuck them.
i'm gonna get you a D'backs jersey with "Arpaio" on the back for your birthday.
/
| 374 |
darthstar Sat, Sep 24, 2011 7:01:42am |
re: #369 Dark_Falcon
McCain's a good egg, lay off of him.
He was a war hero, but also has a history of corruption (Keating 5), sold his soul to the teabaggers last election, and has been anything BUT a maverick who could have been a leader in the Senate for his party. He's a back-benching TV news whore...but a good egg.
| 375 |
Dark_Falcon Sat, Sep 24, 2011 7:01:48am |
re: #370 darthstar
Whatcha sellin?
Seats for a meeting on warfighter protection, i.e. body armor and helmets. My first sale was to a Canadian firm, actually.
| 376 |
darthstar Sat, Sep 24, 2011 7:02:30am |
re: #373 Cannadian Club Akbar
i'm gonna get you a D'backs jersey with "Arpaio" on the back for your birthday.
/
I'd wear that...with pink underwear.
| 377 |
RogueOne Sat, Sep 24, 2011 7:02:36am |
re: #373 Cannadian Club Akbar
i'm gonna get you a D'backs jersey with "Arpaio" on the back for your birthday.
/
So he can burn it in effigy? I'll send the matches!
| 378 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Sat, Sep 24, 2011 7:03:28am |
re: #377 RogueOne
So he can burn it in effigy? I'll send the matches!
When I had season tix for the Bucs, we would light the grill using a Packers hat.
| 379 |
Dark_Falcon Sat, Sep 24, 2011 7:03:43am |
re: #374 darthstar
He was a war hero, but also has a history of corruption (Keating 5), sold his soul to the teabaggers last election, and has been anything BUT a maverick who could have been a leader in the Senate for his party. He's a back-benching TV news whore...but a good egg.
Keating 5 was a screw-up but not a crime, and 2010 showed what McCain should have been in 2008. Had he been conservative and combative, he would have done better and he could have picked a better running mate.
| 380 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Sat, Sep 24, 2011 7:04:35am |
| 381 |
darthstar Sat, Sep 24, 2011 7:05:05am |
| 382 |
Dark_Falcon Sat, Sep 24, 2011 7:05:31am |
re: #378 Cannadian Club Akbar
When I had season tix for the Bucs, we would light the grill using a Packers hat.
Hell, in Chicago we used to use a Farve jersey. But in the last couple years Packers fans took to doing that too and it stopped being fun in Chicago.
/Go Bears!
| 383 |
RogueOne Sat, Sep 24, 2011 7:07:40am |
re: #378 Cannadian Club Akbar
When I had season tix for the Bucs, we would light the grill using a Packers hat.
I traded my suite tickets for the Colts/Steelers game this sunday night for Colts/Chiefs tix later this month. I'd rather watch a game they have a chance to win.
| 384 |
Obdicut Sat, Sep 24, 2011 7:08:04am |
re: #379 Dark_Falcon
he could have picked a better running mate.
Are you just trying to win the 'understatement of the year' award or something?
And McCain did far more than just that. He pandered to the religious right, further enabling them to entrench in the GOP. And that's working out great for them.
| 385 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Sat, Sep 24, 2011 7:08:08am |
re: #382 Dark_Falcon
Hell, in Chicago we used to use a Farve jersey. But in the last couple years Packers fans took to doing that too and it stopped being fun in Chicago.
/Go Bears!
I've seen the "12>4" signs at Lambeau.
| 386 |
Shropshire_Slasher Sat, Sep 24, 2011 7:10:12am |
Ripping some new music (for me) today:
Pantera, Cowboys From Hell
Slipknot, All Hope is Gone
As I Lay Dying, The Powerless Rise
| 388 |
Shropshire_Slasher Sat, Sep 24, 2011 7:13:28am |
re: #387 ggt
Yes, lets see if I accomplish anything tho!
| 389 |
The Left Sat, Sep 24, 2011 7:14:26am |
re: #387 ggt
Morning all!
Big Plans for today?
My sister in law's freezer broke, and I inherited some of her food. So, cooking steak today!
jimmah's excited, I don't really go for red meat myself.
How's by you?
| 390 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Sat, Sep 24, 2011 7:14:48am |
re: #388 Shropshire_Slasher
Yes, lets see if I accomplish anything tho!
I'm supposed to mow yard, but there is a 60% chance of rain, so I'm waiting to see if it shows up.
| 391 |
Decatur Deb Sat, Sep 24, 2011 7:16:29am |
re: #387 ggt
Morning all!
Big Plans for today?
Inbound grandkid, so babyproofing. (No matter how hard you try they always get through.)
| 392 |
Dark_Falcon Sat, Sep 24, 2011 7:17:23am |
re: #387 ggt
Morning all!
Big Plans for today?
Not sure. I'd like to do something outside, but I may just end up working on a project indoors.
| 393 |
Gretchen G.Tiger Sat, Sep 24, 2011 7:18:13am |
re: #391 Decatur Deb
Inbound grandkid, so babyproofing. (No matter how hard you try they always get through.)
You are supposed to wait until kid arrives, then follow them around. They'll show you everything you need to protect them from.
:0
| 394 |
Gretchen G.Tiger Sat, Sep 24, 2011 7:20:24am |
I have about a gazillion things to do.
Laundry
shop/drop off for a Charity Project a friend is working on
Laundry
Get Grandma and bring her to the house for dinner (no we are not serving Grandma)
Laundry
Get kid from school event
Laundry
Bathe 2 dogs, clip nails, trim ears and feet
Laundry
Pick-up Monster Puppy and bring him home from his tri-state Show Tour.
Laundry.
After all that driving, I'll probably have to get gas
Starbucks!
Laundry
| 395 |
Dark_Falcon Sat, Sep 24, 2011 7:20:44am |
re: #384 Obdicut
Are you just trying to win the 'understatement of the year' award or something?
And McCain did far more than just that. He pandered to the religious right, further enabling them to entrench in the GOP. And that's working out great for them.
That's part of my point, actually: If McCain had been more conservative and more aggressive from the start, he would not have felt the need to pander (and that pandering did not earn him real favor). He's not a "nice guy", but in 2008 he tried to be and lost.
| 396 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Sat, Sep 24, 2011 7:21:24am |
re: #394 ggt
How did The Puppy morph into the Monster Puppy? :)
| 397 |
Gretchen G.Tiger Sat, Sep 24, 2011 7:22:05am |
re: #395 Dark_Falcon
That's part of my point, actually: If McCain had been more conservative and more aggressive from the start, he would not have felt the need to pander (and that pandering did not earn him real favor). He's not a "nice guy", but in 2008 he tried to be and lost.
I've often wondered how a person lives for decades without being able to raise their arms above their shoulders.
I wouldn't be very nice either, or I'd be on some nice drugs.
| 398 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Sat, Sep 24, 2011 7:22:18am |
re: #394 ggt
I have one load of laundry to do. And since I'm a guy, whites and darks go together. And it can wait until I'm watching football tomorrow.
| 399 |
Gretchen G.Tiger Sat, Sep 24, 2011 7:22:20am |
| 400 |
RogueOne Sat, Sep 24, 2011 7:22:42am |
re: #386 Shropshire_Slasher
Ripping some new music (for me) today:
Pantera, Cowboys From Hell
Slipknot, All Hope is Gone
As I Lay Dying, The Powerless Rise
Cowboys from Hell is one of my favorite albums of all time.
| 401 |
Decatur Deb Sat, Sep 24, 2011 7:23:22am |
re: #393 ggt
You are supposed to wait until kid arrives, then follow them around. They'll show you everything you need to protect them from.
:0
Heh. Used to have to give safety instruction to Army child care providers. The first step was to get their eyes two feet off the deck. (My real job was explosives safety. The two tasks almost never overlapped.)
| 402 |
Obdicut Sat, Sep 24, 2011 7:23:49am |
re: #395 Dark_Falcon
That's part of my point, actually: If McCain had been more conservative and more aggressive from the start, he would not have felt the need to pander (and that pandering did not earn him real favor).
I have no idea what 'more conservative' actually means.
| 403 |
RogueOne Sat, Sep 24, 2011 7:23:56am |
re: #391 Decatur Deb
Inbound grandkid, so babyproofing. (No matter how hard you try they always get through.)
Have you tried one of these?
Image: midwestcrate.jpg
| 404 |
Shropshire_Slasher Sat, Sep 24, 2011 7:24:02am |
Splitting some oak and maple firewood today, this will help:
| 405 |
(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Sat, Sep 24, 2011 7:24:46am |
| 406 |
Gretchen G.Tiger Sat, Sep 24, 2011 7:24:50am |
re: #403 RogueOne
Have you tried one of these?
Image: midwestcrate.jpg
LOL, one advantage of dogs over kids is that you can legally put them in a cage.
| 407 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Sat, Sep 24, 2011 7:25:34am |
re: #406 ggt
LOL, one advantage of dogs over kids is that you can legally put them in a cage.
But if you put both in at the same time it's "cute".:)
| 408 |
Gretchen G.Tiger Sat, Sep 24, 2011 7:26:36am |
re: #407 Cannadian Club Akbar
But if you put both in at the same time it's "cute".:)
And they don't generally mind.
If the kid crawls in to nap with the dog and you shut the door . . . .
| 409 |
Dark_Falcon Sat, Sep 24, 2011 7:27:31am |
re: #397 ggt
I've often wondered how a person lives for decades without being able to raise their arms above their shoulders.
I wouldn't be very nice either, or I'd be on some nice drugs.
He does it because he must and because the drugs would cloud his mind. Combat pilots learn the importance of being able to think and react very quickly and they do not want to take things that will dull their edge when there's work to be done. John McCain is a very dedicated man, and he carries on as he sees it as his duty.
| 410 |
Decatur Deb Sat, Sep 24, 2011 7:27:55am |
re: #406 ggt
LOL, one advantage of dogs over kids is that you can legally put them in a cage.
Just needs a prettier cage:
[Link: www.google.com...]
| 411 |
Gretchen G.Tiger Sat, Sep 24, 2011 7:28:31am |
re: #410 Decatur Deb
Just needs a prettier cage:
[Link: www.google.com...]
Dog would chew thru that in about 2 seconds.
Doesn't count as a cage.
| 412 |
darthstar Sat, Sep 24, 2011 7:28:48am |
Saturday...no plans at all except mowing the lawn, weeding, cleaning the garage, fetching some toothpaste caps from the bathroom sink's p-trap...pure heaven. Then my wife tells me my sister made an appointment for her to get fitted for a new road bike at some custom shop in Marin and would I like to go. Six weeks I looked forward to a down day. Oh well.
| 413 |
Dark_Falcon Sat, Sep 24, 2011 7:29:45am |
re: #402 Obdicut
I have no idea what 'more conservative' actually means.
It means articulating conservative principals better, and explaining why the other side is in great error.
Combative would have meant relentlessly attacking Obama's record and making the case that he was unfit to lead.
| 414 |
Decatur Deb Sat, Sep 24, 2011 7:30:18am |
re: #411 ggt
Dog would chew thru that in about 2 seconds.
Doesn't count as a cage.
Cage is as cage does. Teething might be a problem, though.
| 415 |
RogueOne Sat, Sep 24, 2011 7:30:24am |
I'm helping my spouse with her garage sale. I told her a month ago I wanted my garage back. I have a 2 story, 2 car garage that's packed full of her crap and old furniture. I wanted to take it to the christian center to get rid of it all but she decided she'd try to sell it first. This seems like a lot more work than what I wanted to be involved in.
| 416 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Sat, Sep 24, 2011 7:30:31am |
re: #411 ggt
Dog would chew thru that in about 2 seconds.
Doesn't count as a cage.
[Link: www.flickr.com...]
| 417 |
(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Sat, Sep 24, 2011 7:30:53am |
| 418 |
Shropshire_Slasher Sat, Sep 24, 2011 7:32:24am |
re: #417 000G
I miss Peter Steele
Type O my favorite!
| 419 |
darthstar Sat, Sep 24, 2011 7:34:16am |
re: #415 RogueOne
I'm helping my spouse with her garage sale. I told her a month ago I wanted my garage back. I have a 2 story, 2 car garage that's packed full of her crap and old furniture. I wanted to take it to the christian center to get rid of it all but she decided she'd try to sell it first. This seems like a lot more work than what I wanted to be involved in.
You're a good man...
| 420 |
(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Sat, Sep 24, 2011 7:34:44am |
lol, I see Charles got into a Twitter spat with John Podhoretz…
| 421 |
RogueOne Sat, Sep 24, 2011 7:37:42am |
re: #419 darthstar
We're doing it at my shop, lots more room and I don't like strangers showing up at my house. I have my laptop, pot of coffee, and a cozy chair. I'm all set.
Plus, the xtian center is right around the corner so whatever she doesn't get rid of it's a short walk to give it away.
| 422 |
Shropshire_Slasher Sat, Sep 24, 2011 7:38:37am |
I gotta go here is an interview with Pete Steele from Type O Negative:
| 423 |
Gretchen G.Tiger Sat, Sep 24, 2011 7:40:30am |
re: #421 RogueOne
We're doing it at my shop, lots more room and I don't like strangers showing up at my house. I have my laptop, pot of coffee, and a cozy chair. I'm all set.
Plus, the xtian center is right around the corner so whatever she doesn't get rid of it's a short walk to give it away.
Well thought out!
| 424 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Sat, Sep 24, 2011 7:41:13am |
re: #421 RogueOne
We're doing it at my shop, lots more room and I don't like strangers showing up at my house. I have my laptop, pot of coffee, and a cozy chair. I'm all set.
Plus, the xtian center is right around the corner so whatever she doesn't get rid of it's a short walk to give it away.
I'll give you $2 for the Indiana Department of Corrections jumpsuit.
/
| 426 |
sattv4u2 Sat, Sep 24, 2011 7:42:28am |
re: #421 RogueOne
We're doing it at my shop, lots more room and I don't like strangers showing up at my house. I have my laptop, pot of coffee, and a cozy chair. I'm all set.
Plus, the xtian center is right around the corner so whatever she doesn't get rid of it's a short walk to give it away.
If it's anything like the yard sales my wife has had, I bet those are the only things people will want to buy
For some reason, when she goes to a yard sale she wants to buy everything for a quarter
BUT ,, when she has a yard sale, she thinks all our junk is priceless, so we hardly ever get rid of anything
| 427 |
Obdicut Sat, Sep 24, 2011 7:43:10am |
re: #413 Dark_Falcon
It means articulating conservative principals better, and explaining why the other side is in great error.
Yeah, but I don't know what conservative principles actually are any more. It used to mean not recklessly changing things from old systems because the outcomes are uncertain.
These days, it appears to mean Ayn Rand economics and intense social conservatism.
So what principles are you talking about?
Combative would have meant relentlessly attacking Obama's record and making the case that he was unfit to lead.
Well, it's a scale, of course. He could have been nastier about it. But he did plenty of combative stuff. And that would have been rather a large lie, since Obama rather obviously is fit to lead.
| 428 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Sat, Sep 24, 2011 7:43:25am |
re: #426 sattv4u2
If it's anything like the yard sales my wife has had, I bet those are the only things people will want to buy
For some reason, when she goes to a yard sale she wants to buy everything for a quarterBUT ,, when she has a yard sale, she thinks all our junk is priceless, so we hardly ever get rid of anything
Tell your wife I'll give her $2 for the idiot on the lawnmower.
/
| 429 |
Gretchen G.Tiger Sat, Sep 24, 2011 7:45:40am |
re: #426 sattv4u2
If it's anything like the yard sales my wife has had, I bet those are the only things people will want to buy
For some reason, when she goes to a yard sale she wants to buy everything for a quarterBUT ,, when she has a yard sale, she thinks all our junk is priceless, so we hardly ever get rid of anything
Yard sale prices are for the stuff you can't sell on ebay or to a "antique" dealer. It's the last ditch effort to get something before you have to donate it for a tax deduction.
| 430 |
sattv4u2 Sat, Sep 24, 2011 7:45:56am |
re: #428 Cannadian Club Akbar
Tell your wife I'll give her $2 for the idiot on the lawnmower.
/
She'd try to sell you the riding mower for more than we paid for it
INCENTIVE,,, the idiot driving is included for free!
| 431 |
(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Sat, Sep 24, 2011 7:46:01am |
re: #418 Shropshire_Slasher
I miss Peter Steele
Type O my favorite!
Can't say that I miss Peter Steele – never knew the dude nor ever felt much sympathy for his self-inflicted suffering. But I sure think it sucks that he won't ever issue more music.
Tribute: My favorite song from each album:
| 432 |
darthstar Sat, Sep 24, 2011 7:46:55am |
re: #427 Obdicut
The bottom line is, despite the existence of Palin on the ticket, and what we've learned about McCain's mental stability based on his actions since losing the election, DF still would vote for him over Obama...as would about 40% of America.
| 433 |
sattv4u2 Sat, Sep 24, 2011 7:47:17am |
re: #429 ggt
Yard sale prices are for the stuff you can't sell on ebay or to a "antique" dealer. It's the last ditch effort to get something before you have to donate it for a tax deduction.
Actually, I (we) couldn't be bothered with e-bay (et al)
We've sold some very nice stuff at yard sales
Furniture,, electronics,,, a car ,,,
| 434 |
Gretchen G.Tiger Sat, Sep 24, 2011 7:48:40am |
re: #433 sattv4u2
Actually, I (we) couldn't be bothered with e-bay (et al)
We've sold some very nice stuff at yard sales
Furniture,, electronics,,, a car ,,,
I don't have time for ebay anymore either.
Did at one time make some decent money with it.
| 435 |
Gretchen G.Tiger Sat, Sep 24, 2011 7:49:48am |
Well, kid just called and is near the drop-off/pick-up location.
bbl
Have a great morning all!
| 436 |
(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Sat, Sep 24, 2011 7:50:14am |
re: #422 Shropshire_Slasher
I gotta go here is an interview with Pete Steele from Type O Negative:
[Video]
Heh. Reminded me of this quote of his:
While Steele wouldn't discuss his incarceration in detail, he did say that he'd been arrested for "accidentally punching someone in the face 50 times."
[Link: www.mtv.com...]
| 437 |
The Left Sat, Sep 24, 2011 7:50:14am |
re: #432 darthstar
The bottom line is, despite the existence of Palin on the ticket, and what we've learned about McCain's mental stability based on his actions since losing the election, DF still would vote for him over Obama...as would about 40% of America.
There's a difference between voting for someone versus merely voting against Obama. That's why "generic republican" trends well but the individual repubs, thankfully, not so much.
I'm not sure if the set of those who just want to vote against Obama is as high as 40%, but sometimes I fear it is.
| 438 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Sat, Sep 24, 2011 7:50:46am |
re: #420 000G
lol, I see Charles got into a Twitter spat with John Podhoretz…
Heh. Podhoretz is in the Tea Party?
| 439 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Sat, Sep 24, 2011 7:52:42am |
It's raining!! So much for mowing the yard!!! I mean, boo....
| 440 |
darthstar Sat, Sep 24, 2011 7:52:46am |
One of my old high school teachers (a cool hippy who wasn't afraid to smoke weed with us) ...long since retired (in his late 70s now) is a friend on facebook...he took a cross country trip and this is one photo he posted along with the caption "For some this may be the most exciting part of eastern Ohio."
| 441 |
sattv4u2 Sat, Sep 24, 2011 7:52:48am |
re: #434 ggt
I don't have time for ebay anymore either.
Did at one time make some decent money with it.
Yeah ,, I tried it
It was alright, and of course you have a bigger net (no pun intended) to try to catch more fish
BUT,, I noticed when we moved here to Georgia, yard sales are HUGE
They usually start on Friday afternoons and last till Sunday 6 pm ish
People spend the entire day just driving around from one to the next. There's even a section in the Atlanta paper that you can put your address in and announce some of your larger objects for sale as a draw
| 442 |
darthstar Sat, Sep 24, 2011 7:53:43am |
re: #439 Cannadian Club Akbar
It's raining!! So much for mowing the yard!!! I mean, boo...
Drizzly foggy here...and the lawn is too wet to mow...feh.
| 443 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Sat, Sep 24, 2011 7:54:29am |
re: #441 sattv4u2
If you advertize your garage sale in the paper here, they give you signs to put around the neighborhood.
| 444 |
sattv4u2 Sat, Sep 24, 2011 7:54:35am |
| 445 |
(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Sat, Sep 24, 2011 7:54:42am |
re: #438 Sergey Romanov
Heh. Podhoretz is in the Tea Party?
He certainly is an apologist: [Link: www.commentarymagazine.com...]
| 446 |
sattv4u2 Sat, Sep 24, 2011 7:57:20am |
Wheres Fat Veggie when I need him?
Anyone seen Crazy, Stupid, Love yet?
Wifey wants to go this afternoon
It's Steve Carell, so it should be okay,,, BUT ,, I have errands/ projects that I wanted to get done today and I'll be pissed if the movie sucks
| 447 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Sat, Sep 24, 2011 7:58:11am |
| 448 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Sat, Sep 24, 2011 7:58:21am |
| 449 |
Kronocide Sat, Sep 24, 2011 7:58:48am |
The truth hurts Podhoretz.
This analysis is, in a word, preposterous, as the fact that they can’t point to a single instance in the past year in which the “Tea Party” has pushed a socially conservative agenda attests.
Huh? That's pretty sloppy.
| 450 |
sattv4u2 Sat, Sep 24, 2011 7:59:09am |
re: #447 Cannadian Club Akbar
Lemme see...buy an 18 pack, eat leftover pizza and watch football OR help Satty. Hmm. That's a tough one.
I'll throw in a FRESH pizza!
| 451 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Sat, Sep 24, 2011 8:00:52am |
re: #450 sattv4u2
I'll throw in a FRESH pizza!
Ordered pizza from Pizza Hut last night. Large pepperoni. Got 2 mediums because they were out of large pizza D'oh on a Friday night at 9PM. Someone is getting a write up.
| 452 |
sattv4u2 Sat, Sep 24, 2011 8:03:52am |
re: #437 iceweasel
Quinnipiac has Romney beating Obama (poll was released last week)
Note that Romney is beating Obama 44% to 35% in Independents
(btw ,, the same poll has Obama beating Perry 45% to 41% iirc0
There are others that are similar
5. If the 2012 election for President were being held today, and the candidates were Barack Obama the Democrat and Mitt Romney the Republican, for whom would you vote?
WtBrnAgn
Tot Rep Dem Ind Men Wom Evnglcl
Obama 40% 4% 83% 35% 38% 42% 13%
Romney 47 93 7 44 50 44 75
SMONE ELSE(VOL) 2 - - 3 2 1 1
WLDN'T VOTE(VOL) 4 1 2 6 3 4 2
DK/NA 8 2 8 12 7 10 8
| 453 |
RogueOne Sat, Sep 24, 2011 8:04:55am |
re: #433 sattv4u2
Actually, I (we) couldn't be bothered with e-bay (et al)
We've sold some very nice stuff at yard sales
Furniture,, electronics,,, a car ,,,
I have 2 complete sets of furniture, 4 tv's, and 3 computer monitors I want to get rid of. Whenever we buy something new my wife won't let me get rid of the old stuff "what if someone needs it?".
I even have a '92 pontiac firebird I want gone. Runs great, low miles, and a t-top. The damn thing sits about 6" off the ground so I haven't driven it in almost 10 years. It's just been sitting covered in the shop garage.
| 454 |
Dark_Falcon Sat, Sep 24, 2011 8:06:28am |
re: #432 darthstar
Downding for the insult thrown at McCain.
| 455 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Sat, Sep 24, 2011 8:06:34am |
re: #453 RogueOne
The monitors are junk.
Get $10 for each TV.
Sell the car for $3K.
Craig's List.
| 456 |
darthstar Sat, Sep 24, 2011 8:07:44am |
re: #451 Cannadian Club Akbar
Ordered pizza from Pizza Hut last night. Large pepperoni. Got 2 mediums because they were out of large pizza D'oh on a Friday night at 9PM. Someone is getting a write up.
Sounds like they don't roll their own pizzas anymore.
| 457 |
RogueOne Sat, Sep 24, 2011 8:08:03am |
re: #437 iceweasel
There's a difference between voting for someone versus merely voting against Obama. That's why "generic republican" trends well but the individual repubs, thankfully, not so much.
I'm not sure if the set of those who just want to vote against Obama is as high as 40%, but sometimes I fear it is.
It is. 35% will vote for and 35% will vote against based strictly on party ID.
I like McCain, as a person, and I like Feingold for the same reason. I think they both feel like they're going to do the right thing even if it's not popular. I can respect that but I wouldn't vote for either of them. I'm not sure when it became necessary to believe that those we disagree with have to be evil instead of just mistaken.
| 458 |
(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Sat, Sep 24, 2011 8:10:02am |
Rush Limbaugh goes after Elizabeth Warren, calls her "a parasite who hates her host":
| 459 |
darthstar Sat, Sep 24, 2011 8:10:02am |
re: #454 Dark_Falcon
Downding for the insult thrown at McCain.
The guy's not all there anymore. Downding all you want. McCain is showing the signs of aging...slow responses, erratic behavior, angry outbursts. He should be locked in his back yard where he can yell at the garden gnome in peace.
| 460 |
RogueOne Sat, Sep 24, 2011 8:10:05am |
re: #455 Cannadian Club Akbar
The monitors are junk.
Get $10 for each TV.
Sell the car for $3K.
Craig's List.
Used cars have gone way up in price. Cash-for-clunkers just made me an extra $3 grand.
| 461 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Sat, Sep 24, 2011 8:10:11am |
re: #456 darthstar
Sounds like they don't roll their own pizzas anymore.
I think they might still make the dough in-house. Not sure. I do like their hand tossed pizzas. But it takes time to make dough and running out on a Friday night is just stoopid.
| 462 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Sat, Sep 24, 2011 8:12:45am |
re: #458 000G
Well, I don't envy parasites to which Limbaugh is a host.
| 463 |
Obdicut Sat, Sep 24, 2011 8:12:57am |
re: #457 RogueOne
I don't really personally care if someone is evil or just mistaken. It's not something I can tell, without access to their thoughts. It really doesn't matter, in the end.
If someone takes the position that we don't need to do anything about global warming, I don't care if that's because they're a twisted nihilist who accepts that it will cause tons of human suffering but doesn't care, or if they're ignorant of the facts of it. I assume both types exist, and any argument or policy needs to account for both types. I guess finding that out would help craft a policy message, but otherwise it's moot.
Likewise, if someone is naive enough to think that it would be okay and acceptable to go back to the days when you could ban black people from your store, it doesn't matter if they're actually a racist or they're just a Randian ideologue who doesn't consider the actual consequences of that policy, the actual historical outcome of it. It doesn't matter. The practical outcome is the same. There's a hope that both types can learn, that the racist can overcome his racism or the ignoramus his ignorance, but there's no real difference in terms of confronting them and stopping their dangerous policies from going into place.
Don't hate the sinner, hate the sin, so to speak. The person isn't evil, or it doesn't matter if they are. The positions they take and the outcomes they have are what matter.
| 464 |
Dark_Falcon Sat, Sep 24, 2011 8:13:56am |
re: #457 RogueOne
It is. 35% will vote for and 35% will vote against based strictly on party ID.
I like McCain, as a person, and I like Feingold for the same reason. I think they both feel like they're going to do the right thing even if it's not popular. I can respect that but I wouldn't vote for either of them. I'm not sure when it became necessary to believe that those we disagree with have to be evil instead of just mistaken.
Actually, McCain does understand that Obama is not evil and his actions reflect that. But But if I'm to be honest, this is where the use of religious rhetoric has gone and bit the Republican party right on the ass (the Democrats have a similar problem with rhetoric derived from Marxism). It is appropriate to set one's way of seeing political problems in a Christian context (to ask what the Christian thing to do is), but that should not be taken to thinking of the other side as being the Band of the Damned.
| 465 |
(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Sat, Sep 24, 2011 8:14:02am |
re: #462 Sergey Romanov
Well, I don't envy parasites to which Limbaugh is a host.
Another great part of that clip is where he says that her way of thinking is the same as the one behind Mao Zedong's Cultural Revolution.
hahaha oh wow
| 466 |
Obdicut Sat, Sep 24, 2011 8:14:33am |
re: #464 Dark_Falcon
What rhetoric derived from Marxism, for fuck's sake?
| 467 |
darthstar Sat, Sep 24, 2011 8:15:22am |
re: #464 Dark_Falcon
this is where the use of religious rhetoric has gone and bit the Republican party right on the ass (the Democrats have a similar problem with rhetoric derived from Marxism).
We don't get our rhetoric from Marxism. We get it from SATAN!
Now, if you'll excuse me, I need to go finish my fetus smoothie.
| 468 |
(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Sat, Sep 24, 2011 8:15:25am |
re: #466 Obdicut
What rhetoric derived from Marxism, for fuck's sake?
$5 he doesn't know jack shit what he is talking about. Right-wingers usually don't when they use the term "Marxism".
| 469 |
Dark_Falcon Sat, Sep 24, 2011 8:16:29am |
re: #459 darthstar
He went to Benghazi to meet with the rebel leaders in Libya to ensure the Senate had insight into what was going on there and make sure the rebels knew they had our support. He is more clear thinking than the majority of Senators, and he thinks instead of DERPs. So leave him the fuck alone!
| 470 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Sat, Sep 24, 2011 8:16:32am |
You know who else used anti-Marxist rhetoric?
/
| 471 |
darthstar Sat, Sep 24, 2011 8:17:07am |
re: #468 000G
$5 he doesn't know jack shit what he is talking about. Right-wingers usually don't when they use the term "Marxism".
It sounded good though...I'm waiting for the follow up now. This could be fun.
| 472 |
Dark_Falcon Sat, Sep 24, 2011 8:18:19am |
re: #467 darthstar
We don't get our rhetoric from Marxism. We get it from SATAN!
Now, if you'll excuse me, I need to go finish my fetus smoothie.
Did you even read my last sentence of that post? I explicitly made clear I did not think that bolded part! Don't go building strawmen.
| 473 |
darthstar Sat, Sep 24, 2011 8:19:46am |
re: #469 Dark_Falcon
He went to Benghazi to meet with the rebel leaders in Libya to ensure the Senate had insight into what was going on there and make sure the rebels knew they had our support. He is more clear thinking than the majority of Senators, and he thinks instead of DERPs. So leave him the fuck alone!
Didn't McCain also promise C130s to Gadaffi? In 2009?
I'll leave him the fuck alone when the addled old fart retires and gets the fuck out of politics - just as I have the Bushes.
| 474 |
bratwurst Sat, Sep 24, 2011 8:20:38am |
Come on...Marx is completely passe. Everyone knows modern left wing rhetoric comes from Alinsky!
| 475 |
Kronocide Sat, Sep 24, 2011 8:21:19am |
Bill O'Reilly is writing columns on Townhall?
Megaderp.
I find it hard to believe I liked Walter Williams. Reading some of his columns now it appears he's one of the most stupid 'thinkers' out there.
| 476 |
Obdicut Sat, Sep 24, 2011 8:22:18am |
re: #472 Dark_Falcon
You said this:
But if I'm to be honest, this is where the use of religious rhetoric has gone and bit the Republican party right on the ass (the Democrats have a similar problem with rhetoric derived from Marxism).
You said that the Democrats have a problem with rhetoric derived from Marxism.
Can you please tell me what rhetoric you're talking about?
| 478 |
Kronocide Sat, Sep 24, 2011 8:23:37am |
re: #466 Obdicut
What rhetoric derived from Marxism, for fuck's sake?
Marx was Marx before Soros was Soros.
| 479 |
darthstar Sat, Sep 24, 2011 8:23:39am |
re: #472 Dark_Falcon
Did you even read my last sentence of that post? I explicitly made clear I did not think that bolded part! Don't go building strawmen.
Yes, and this "It is appropriate to set one's way of seeing political problems in a Christian context " tells me volumes. It's like seeing political problems in an Islamic context (if you're Muslim) or a Hindu context (if you're Hindu) or a Zionist context (if you're Jewish). Religious extremism is religious extremism. Period.
(Buddhists excepted).
| 480 |
(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Sat, Sep 24, 2011 8:24:46am |
| 482 |
sattv4u2 Sat, Sep 24, 2011 8:25:44am |
re: #453 RogueOne
Whenever we buy something new my wife won't let me get rid of the old stuff "what if someone needs it?
Your wife has a twin sister that I married
| 483 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Sat, Sep 24, 2011 8:25:55am |
| 484 |
darthstar Sat, Sep 24, 2011 8:27:30am |
re: #483 Sergey Romanov
"(Buddhists excepted)."
How so?
They don't kill for their religion as much as the others. Though 000G corrected me on their pacifism already.
| 485 |
Dark_Falcon Sat, Sep 24, 2011 8:27:39am |
re: #476 Obdicut
You said this:
You said that the Democrats have a problem with rhetoric derived from Marxism.
Can you please tell me what rhetoric you're talking about?
That rhetoric that calls for redistribution, such as Obama put out just this month. Raising taxes on one group of people to provide benefits to another.
| 486 |
RogueOne Sat, Sep 24, 2011 8:27:41am |
re: #463 Obdicut
That was a pretty big leap from what I said. What I said was I don't have to hate someone or think they're evil just because we disagree on a policy issue. Both McCain and Feingold believed they were doing what was in the best interests of the nation when they managed to get the McCain-Feingold campaign finance law enacted. Personally, I think it was a horrible violation of the 1st amendment and therefore neither would be a person I would ever want to vote for but that doesn't mean I think they're horrible people.
I prefer dealing with people who let their views be known up front, hold their convictions tightly and then act on those convictions even if I disagree. It's a lot more honest than most politicians who will say whatever it takes to get reelected.
| 487 |
Kronocide Sat, Sep 24, 2011 8:28:23am |
On that note Obdi, I was in a restaurant a few weeks ago sipping expensive scotch with a buddy. A bunch of 20 somethings were at another table, having a good time, well dressed. One of them says:
This guy was Dick Cheney before Dick Cheney was Dick Cheney
Buddy and I looked at each other laughing and said at the same time 'WTF does that mean?'
I still don't know but I've been dying to use it here at LGF. Doesn't mean anything but it sounds really cool.
| 488 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Sat, Sep 24, 2011 8:28:35am |
re: #484 darthstar
> They don't kill for their religion as much as the others.
Kill less is grounds for exception?
| 489 |
(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Sat, Sep 24, 2011 8:28:56am |
re: #483 Sergey Romanov
Maybe he thought that Buddhism is ultimatively peaceful.
But Buddhism has a lot of inherent apologies for bad deeds that depend on its core of karmic philosophy.
If a religion deserved that award, it would most likely be Jainism, I suppose.
| 490 |
darthstar Sat, Sep 24, 2011 8:29:17am |
re: #485 Dark_Falcon
That rhetoric that calls for redistribution, such as Obama put out just this month. Raising taxes on one group of people to provide benefits to another.
That's what our country was built on...those who have helping those who have not.
| 491 |
Dark_Falcon Sat, Sep 24, 2011 8:29:19am |
re: #479 darthstar
Yes, and this "It is appropriate to set one's way of seeing political problems in a Christian context " tells me volumes. It's like seeing political problems in an Islamic context (if you're Muslim) or a Hindu context (if you're Hindu) or a Zionist context (if you're Jewish). Religious extremism is religious extremism. Period.
(Buddhists excepted).
An Islamic is fine, so is a Jewish one, as long as they are not violent/extremist. Hinduism can be a bit more problematic due to the caste system.
| 492 |
RogueOne Sat, Sep 24, 2011 8:29:59am |
re: #474 bratwurst
I saw the post last week where you said you were on an enforced sabbatical. Just wanted to tell you good luck. I looked to see if you had an email address listed for the lgf safemail option to send you a note but couldn't find it. Don't know if that option has been dropped or if you don't have an email listed.
| 493 |
darthstar Sat, Sep 24, 2011 8:30:09am |
re: #489 000G
If a religion deserved that award, it would most likely be Jainism, I suppose.
Or Pastafarianism. Talking like a pirate doesn't hurt anyone.
| 494 |
(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Sat, Sep 24, 2011 8:31:00am |
re: #485 Dark_Falcon
That rhetoric that calls for redistribution, such as Obama put out just this month. Raising taxes on one group of people to provide benefits to another.
There is nothing specifically Marxist about "redistribution". The very notion of taxation is one of "redistribution". Even socialistic ideas of "redistribution" are way older than Marx.
You will have to try harder.
| 495 |
The Left Sat, Sep 24, 2011 8:31:03am |
re: #474 bratwurst
Come on...Marx is completely passe. Everyone knows modern left wing rhetoric comes from Alinsky!
You're on an enforced sabbatical? What happened? I'm sorry to hear that, hope you're ok.
| 496 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Sat, Sep 24, 2011 8:31:35am |
| 497 |
Dark_Falcon Sat, Sep 24, 2011 8:31:49am |
re: #490 darthstar
That's what our country was built on...those who have helping those who have not.
Um, no. Our country was built on providing freedom and opportunity (initially only to white males, but that has since been broadened greatly), not on the government taking from one person to give to another. Extension of unemployment benefits is not the same thing as building a navy.
| 498 |
The Left Sat, Sep 24, 2011 8:33:01am |
The fish and chip van is back, blaring Dixie to the neighbourhood. Oh joy.
| 499 |
sattv4u2 Sat, Sep 24, 2011 8:33:48am |
re: #498 iceweasel
The fish and chip van is back, blaring Dixie to the neighbourhood. Oh joy.
Must be catfish!
| 500 |
Dark_Falcon Sat, Sep 24, 2011 8:34:12am |
re: #498 iceweasel
The fish and chip van is back, blaring Dixie to the neighbourhood. Oh joy.
Try whistling... :)
/joke on 'Dixie'
| 501 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Sat, Sep 24, 2011 8:34:15am |
re: #491 Dark_Falcon
That means "Hindu one also, as long as it's not extremist". No need to separate them somehow. There's enough sick stuff in any ancient religion, none of them are fit for consumption "as is" in their original state, unless significantly dissolved by a large doze of liberal interpretations.
| 502 |
(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Sat, Sep 24, 2011 8:34:28am |
Anyone from Brooklyn here?
| 503 |
sattv4u2 Sat, Sep 24, 2011 8:35:01am |
re: #493 darthstar
Or Pastafarianism. Talking like a pirate doesn't hurt anyone.
I thought that was the worship of Raviolis!
| 504 |
darthstar Sat, Sep 24, 2011 8:35:15am |
re: #497 Dark_Falcon
Um, no. Our country was built on providing freedom and opportunity (initially only to white males, but that has since been broadened greatly),
Give the GOP time...they'll roll that back too.
| 505 |
Dark_Falcon Sat, Sep 24, 2011 8:35:24am |
re: #501 Sergey Romanov
That means "Hindu one also, as long as it's not extremist". No need to separate them somehow. There's enough sick stuff in any ancient religion, none of them are fit for consumption "as is" in their original state, unless significantly dissolved by a large doze of liberal interpretations.
I can accept that alteration.
| 506 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Sat, Sep 24, 2011 8:36:05am |
re: #503 sattv4u2
I thought that was the worship of Raviolis!
Heretic. That's worship of the Flying Spaghetti Monster.
| 508 |
bratwurst Sat, Sep 24, 2011 8:38:16am |
re: #492 RogueOne
I saw the post last week where you said you were on an enforced sabbatical. Just wanted to tell you good luck. I looked to see if you had an email address listed for the lgf safemail option to send you a note but couldn't find it. Don't know if that option has been dropped or if you don't have an email listed.
Hey, I really appreciate that! While I am not a "live to work" kinda guy, the novelty of unemployment is starting to wear off. Being scapegoated for the failure of a language school, then having the owner of the school lie to the state in order to deny me unemployment benefits was a major shock to the system. Fortunately, even the Department of Employment Security was not fooled and I have started to receive my modest payments. I am lucky in life that I am in no danger of going hungry or being evicted...obviously there are plenty of people in my shoes who are in real trouble these days. I am going to start doing some volunteer work here soon as a way of giving back a bit.
| 509 |
Kronocide Sat, Sep 24, 2011 8:39:16am |
We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence,[note 1] promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.
The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;
About as clear as the 2nd Amendment.
| 510 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Sat, Sep 24, 2011 8:39:17am |
re: #507 iceweasel
btw, do you and Jimmah move between Scotland and NY regularly?
| 511 |
(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Sat, Sep 24, 2011 8:39:56am |
re: #507 iceweasel
Manhattan. Close enough?
I just feel like pimping WFMU today:
Dorian's Secret Science Club Needs a Hand
Long term listeners of WFMU may remember Dorian's long-running interview shows The Speakeasy or The Green Room. These days Dorian is running The Secret Science Club, which is a science lecture, arts and performance series based in Brooklyn. They host live science events for the public, featuring subjects ranging from Black Holes and Dinosaurs to Human Evolution and the Human Brain. Every month, leading scientists give talks on discoveries in their fields and unleash their research on an inquisitive audience.
The Secret Science Club has a Kickstarter underway to help expand in their fifth season. Pledge and find more info here! Find Secret Science Club's homepage here.
[Link: blog.wfmu.org...]
| 512 |
darthstar Sat, Sep 24, 2011 8:40:25am |
re: #509 BigPapa
It doesn't say anything about helping out those unworthy poor people...and they SMELL!
/
| 513 |
The Left Sat, Sep 24, 2011 8:40:56am |
re: #510 Sergey Romanov
btw, do you and Jimmah move between Scotland and NY regularly?
I wish. That's the longterm plan, but for the next two years I can't spend more than 90 days outside of the UK-- in order to establish it as my permanent residency. In any case we don't have the money right now to be moving back and forth.
| 514 |
(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Sat, Sep 24, 2011 8:41:54am |
| 515 |
Dark_Falcon Sat, Sep 24, 2011 8:44:01am |
re: #508 bratwurst
Hey, I really appreciate that! While I am not a "live to work" kinda guy, the novelty of unemployment is starting to wear off. Being scapegoated for the failure of a language school, then having the owner of the school lie to the state in order to deny me unemployment benefits was a major shock to the system. Fortunately, even the Department of Employment Security was not fooled and I have started to receive my modest payments. I am lucky in life that I am in no danger of going hungry or being evicted...obviously there are plenty of people in my shoes who are in real trouble these days. I am going to start doing some volunteer work here soon as a way of giving back a bit.
Honestly, I have to say that the Dept. of Employment Security in Illinois does look at cases fairly and does give ex-employees the needed benefit of the doubt. Sorry that happened to you. If I can help, let me know.
BBL
| 516 |
RogueOne Sat, Sep 24, 2011 8:46:02am |
re: #508 bratwurst
We seem to disagree on quite a bit....maybe even everything but a mutual love of Beavis and Butthead. That's enough for me to vote for you anyway or, at a minimum, at least root for you!
| 517 |
sattv4u2 Sat, Sep 24, 2011 8:46:12am |
re: #509 BigPapa
The interpretation of "general welfare" has been debated as long as "A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the People to keep and bear arms" has
Just sayin!
| 518 |
(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Sat, Sep 24, 2011 8:46:48am |
re: #517 sattv4u2
What do you think it means?
| 519 |
RogueOne Sat, Sep 24, 2011 8:46:53am |
Ok, swamped with old women and a guy who wants to test drive the car. Everyone enjoy the rest of their saturday!
| 520 |
sattv4u2 Sat, Sep 24, 2011 8:47:45am |
re: #516 RogueOne
So ,, how much you want for the Firebird??
((with details, please))
| 521 |
The Left Sat, Sep 24, 2011 8:48:01am |
re: #519 RogueOne
Ok, swamped with old women and a guy who wants to test drive the car. Everyone enjoy the rest of their saturday!
Good luck! Hope you sell a lot!
| 522 |
sattv4u2 Sat, Sep 24, 2011 8:48:16am |
re: #518 000G
What do you think it means?
Doesn't matter what I think it means
What did matter was what I stated!
| 523 |
(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Sat, Sep 24, 2011 8:50:01am |
re: #522 sattv4u2
It matters what you think in the context of conversing here online. Which you chose to do when you delivered your platitudes about how people were arguing about it. Asking for specification in a follow-up was only fair. If you do not want to answer, fine. But don't make excuses.
| 524 |
Obdicut Sat, Sep 24, 2011 9:01:05am |
re: #485 Dark_Falcon
That rhetoric that calls for redistribution, such as Obama put out just this month. Raising taxes on one group of people to provide benefits to another.
Wow. All taxation that doesn't benefit everyone equally is now Marxist. Amazing.
That makes Adam Smith, who favored a progressive tax, a Marxist.
Asinine.
| 525 |
sattv4u2 Sat, Sep 24, 2011 9:01:30am |
re: #523 000G
It matters what you think in the context of conversing here online. Which you chose to do when you delivered your platitudes about how people were arguing about it. Asking for specification in a follow-up was only fair. If you do not want to answer, fine. But don't make excuses.
I did answer
It matters not what one poster here thinks about it.
For instance, lets say that under the amendment I think I should be able to own a fully functioning tank, and you don't. The only thing that proves is what I stated
What did matter, in the context, was that there is and always has been disagreement about the interpretation of both, unless you think that there hasn't been!
If so, we can debate that!
| 526 |
(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Sat, Sep 24, 2011 9:02:49am |
re: #525 sattv4u2
Dude. Stop evading. Either say what you think it means or say that you don't know.
| 528 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Sat, Sep 24, 2011 9:05:05am |
000G, if you don't mind me asking, are you a guy or a girl? ;P
| 529 |
(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Sat, Sep 24, 2011 9:06:11am |
re: #524 Obdicut
Wow. All taxation that doesn't benefit everyone equally is now Marxist. Amazing.
That makes Adam Smith, who favored a progressive tax, a Marxist.
Asinine.
Brought to you by The Limbaugh Institute for Advanced Conservative Studies.
| 530 |
Kronocide Sat, Sep 24, 2011 9:07:02am |
re: #524 Obdicut
It seems Marx has long been at Godwin status, but the name doesn't convert to a verb easily.
| 531 |
(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Sat, Sep 24, 2011 9:07:19am |
re: #528 Sergey Romanov
000G, if you don't mind me asking, are you a guy or a girl? ;P
Is my answer going to determine what the wink and the tongue are supposed to be there for, Mister?
| 532 |
(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Sat, Sep 24, 2011 9:07:36am |
re: #530 BigPapa
It seems Marx has long been at Godwin status, but the name doesn't convert to a verb easily.
Marx'd.
| 533 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Sat, Sep 24, 2011 9:07:46am |
re: #531 000G
Nope.
| 534 |
sattv4u2 Sat, Sep 24, 2011 9:08:02am |
re: #526 000G
Dude. Stop evading. Either say what you think it means or say that you don't know.
I do know, and again, what difference does it make?
The point I made was that there has always been debate on the interpretation of both. That statement is correct!
That established, what difference does it make how I (or any individual) interprets either?
| 535 |
(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Sat, Sep 24, 2011 9:09:50am |
re: #534 sattv4u2
I do know, and again, what difference does it make?
The point I made was that there has always been debate on the interpretation of both. That statement is correct!
That established, what difference does it make how I (or any individual) interprets either?
What difference does anything make, given that entropy?
EOD, you are not really interested in a fruitful debate.
| 536 |
(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Sat, Sep 24, 2011 9:11:34am |
re: #533 Sergey Romanov
Nope.
I'm a guy. When I do good, my Lady calls me a man. When I do really good, she calls me a gentleman.
| 537 |
sattv4u2 Sat, Sep 24, 2011 9:12:37am |
re: #535 000G
What difference does anything make, given that entropy?
EOD, you are not really interested in a fruitful debate.
If it would lead to "fruitful debate", I would be more than happy to engage
But this subject never does from my experience
And again, the purpose of my original post on the subject was stated and repeated. If you care to disagree (or debate) that, have at it
| 538 |
Kronocide Sat, Sep 24, 2011 9:17:24am |
re: #534 sattv4u2
I do know, and again, what difference does it make?
The point I made was that there has always been debate on the interpretation of both. That statement is correct!
That established, what difference does it make how I (or any individual) interprets either?
There is still debate on AGW, 9/11, and whether Obama was born in Hawaii or not.
What is the point of saying 'there's still a debate' without implying the point? It seems you are implying the point by stating a faction that 'there is still a debate.' Do you agree with one side of the debate? Which is it?
| 539 |
Daniel Ballard Sat, Sep 24, 2011 9:17:44am |
re: #485 Dark_Falcon
That rhetoric that calls for redistribution, such as Obama put out just this month. Raising taxes on one group of people to provide benefits to another.
Q for ya...
Are you thinking of the Buffet Rule at all there? I am of the position that tax rates must go up. But I really feel disdain for emotional solutions.
Like the Buffet Rule, an emotional solution to an economic problem. Or "getting rid of the Bush tax cuts" Which is a politically motivated change. Again a non economic approach to a revenue problem.
| 540 |
Killgore Trout Sat, Sep 24, 2011 9:18:31am |
re: #524 Obdicut
Wow. All taxation that doesn't benefit everyone equally is now Marxist. Amazing.
That makes Adam Smith, who favored a progressive tax, a Marxist.
Asinine.
It's all part of the wingnut revisionist history. Of course the founding fathers understood the importance of taxation. It's absurd to claim they were anti-tax zealots. Washington's Farewell Address 1796
To facilitate to them the performance of their duty, it is essential that you should practically bear in mind that towards the payment of debts there must be revenue; that to have revenue there must be taxes; that no taxes can be devised which are not more or less inconvenient and unpleasant; that the intrinsic embarrassment, inseparable from the selection of the proper objects (which is always a choice of difficulties), ought to be a decisive motive for a candid construction of the conduct of the government in making it, and for a spirit of acquiescence in the measures for obtaining revenue, which the public exigencies may at any time dictate.
| 541 |
(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Sat, Sep 24, 2011 9:19:03am |
re: #537 sattv4u2
So you claim to know something, but do not wish to engage in a debate about it, since in your experience that never has been fruitful.
Some solipsistic piece of private echo chamber knowledge you have acquired there. Thanks for indulging us!
| 542 |
wrenchwench Sat, Sep 24, 2011 9:20:45am |
re: #536 000G
I'm a guy. When I do good, my Lady calls me a man. When I do really good, she calls me a gentleman.
I was sure you were a guy until you changed your avatar. Then I had my doubts. I'm glad to see I was not wrong (this time).
| 543 |
(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Sat, Sep 24, 2011 9:21:06am |
re: #540 Killgore Trout
It's all part of the wingnut revisionist history. Of course the founding fathers understood the importance of taxation. It's absurd to claim they were anti-tax zealots. Washington's Farewell Address 1796
LIES! THEY WERE ALL GOOD ANTI-COMMUNIST CHRISTIANS BECAUSE SHUT UP LIBRUL!
| 544 |
(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Sat, Sep 24, 2011 9:22:03am |
re: #542 wrenchwench
I was sure you were a guy until you changed your avatar. Then I had my doubts. I'm glad to see I was not wrong (this time).
I find it funny how my avatars sometimes have that effect. I am pretty sure my online demeanor is pretty male, overall.
| 545 |
wrenchwench Sat, Sep 24, 2011 9:23:21am |
re: #544 000G
I find it funny how my avatars sometimes have that effect. I am pretty sure my online demeanor is pretty male, overall.
Your online demeanor is quite male, but this is the internet...
| 546 |
zora Sat, Sep 24, 2011 9:23:33am |
re: #540 Killgore Trout
the tea party appears to want representation without taxation. who knew that was an option. bachmann wants you to keep all of your money.
| 547 |
sattv4u2 Sat, Sep 24, 2011 9:25:06am |
re: #538 BigPapa
There is still debate on AGW, 9/11, and whether Obama was born in Hawaii or not.
What is the point of saying 'there's still a debate' without implying the point? It seems you are implying the point my stating a faction that 'there is still a debate.' Do you agree with one side of the debate? Which is it?
Fair enough
I agree that individuals have the right to bear arms. I do, however, believe in limits (I don't want nor want to see a neighbor with a tank)
I think "general welfare" means just that. Maintaining standards for better living over and above the defense of the nation (meat inspection, road repairs, elderly/ indigent services, etc)
| 548 |
Daniel Ballard Sat, Sep 24, 2011 9:25:19am |
re: #524 Obdicut
Wow. All taxation that doesn't benefit everyone equally is now Marxist. Amazing.
That makes Adam Smith, who favored a progressive tax, a Marxist.
Asinine.
If you take the pejorative out of the name, it would be fair to say he embraced a principle espoused by Marx. No big deal, until the name is used as an insult.
| 549 |
sattv4u2 Sat, Sep 24, 2011 9:27:01am |
re: #541 000G
So you claim to know something, but do not wish to engage in a debate about it, since in your experience that never has been fruitful.
Some solipsistic piece of private echo chamber knowledge you have acquired there. Thanks for indulging us!
Not once did I make this personal/ name calling
And you wonder why I "avoid" certain subjects
Sorry, but my blood pressure is just fine and I don't care to change that, thanyouverymuch
| 550 |
Killgore Trout Sat, Sep 24, 2011 9:27:11am |
re: #539 Rightwingconspirator
Q for ya...
Are you thinking of the Buffet Rule at all there? I am of the position that tax rates must go up. But I really feel disdain for emotional solutions.Like the Buffet Rule, an emotional solution to an economic problem. Or "getting rid of the Bush tax cuts" Which is a politically motivated change. Again a non economic approach to a revenue problem.
I don't see those as emotional solutions. The Bush tax cuts were intended to be temporary. Repealing them for the wealthy will create a lot of real revenue. That's a fact, not an emotional response.
| 551 |
(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Sat, Sep 24, 2011 9:27:33am |
re: #548 Rightwingconspirator
If you take the pejorative out of the name, it would be fair to say he embraced a principle espoused by Marx. No big deal, until the name is used as an insult.
You don't get the point: DF'S understanding of ideology is ass-backwards as regards the chronology and causality of the history of ideas. Which is one of the results of his entire understanding of the terminology involved stemming from conservative sources.
| 552 |
Daniel Ballard Sat, Sep 24, 2011 9:28:12am |
re: #547 sattv4u2
Fair enough
I agree that individuals have the right to bear arms. I do, however, believe in limits (I don't want nor want to see a neighbor with a tank)
I think "general welfare" means just that. Maintaining standards for better living over and above the defense of the nation (meat inspection, road repairs, elderly/ indigent services, etc)
Now that the 2nd was finally enshrined as an individual right, we can move the debate on to those devilish details like dumping city wide gun bans, and enacting regulations that allow the law abiding to have the best contemporary defensive tool, and punish the criminal access, possession or use of a handgun.
| 553 |
(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Sat, Sep 24, 2011 9:28:26am |
re: #549 sattv4u2
Wasn't personal for me, either. Thank you for answering the question in 547.
| 554 |
sattv4u2 Sat, Sep 24, 2011 9:28:58am |
re: #538 BigPapa
re: #541 000G
re: #549 sattv4u2
Not once did I make this personal/ name calling
And you wonder why I "avoid" certain subjects
Sorry, but my blood pressure is just fine and I don't care to change that, thanyouverymuch
That stated, my original point still stands
There has long been debate over the interpretation AND scope of both phrases
| 555 |
Obdicut Sat, Sep 24, 2011 9:29:16am |
re: #548 Rightwingconspirator
But the principle isn't Marxist, then. It's not Marxist rhetoric. It didn't originate with Marx, Marx is not the main proponent of it, and it's not central to Marx's philosophy. It is not, in fact, at all related to Marxist philosophy. It's something he'd condemn, because progressive taxation can only take place inside a capitalist system.
| 556 |
sattv4u2 Sat, Sep 24, 2011 9:30:10am |
re: #553 000G
Wasn't personal for me, either. Thank you for answering the question in 547.
Not "personal", just snarky!
So you claim to know something, but do not wish to engage in a debate about it, since in your experience that never has been fruitful.
Some solipsistic piece of private echo chamber knowledge you have acquired there. Thanks for indulging us!
| 557 |
sattv4u2 Sat, Sep 24, 2011 9:30:52am |
And on that note, wifey wants to go to the movies
| 558 |
(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Sat, Sep 24, 2011 9:31:08am |
re: #550 Killgore Trout
I don't see those as emotional solutions. The Bush tax cuts were intended to be temporary. Repealing them for the wealthy will create a lot of real revenue. That's a fact, not an emotional response.
The funny thing is that the Bush tax cuts having been sunset from the beginning so that they would look "temporary" but just end up on the plate of another administration down the road that would then look like they were about to raise taxes – is a parade example of "politically motivated change".
And essentially all tax laws are "temporary". None of them are the ten commandments. They can all be changed at any time, given the right political circumstances.
| 559 |
(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Sat, Sep 24, 2011 9:32:02am |
| 560 |
sattv4u2 Sat, Sep 24, 2011 9:32:22am |
| 561 |
Daniel Ballard Sat, Sep 24, 2011 9:33:12am |
re: #550 Killgore Trout
Here is where I disagree. First, nobody really wants to repeal all of it. Just the upper income brackets. Which is likely wise. So to even use the term is misleading to that degree. And it points to a political fix, in no small part emotional payback from anger at the cuts and who they helped the most $$.
The economic fix would be a cold objective look at the tax rates and apply the changes. Which are not all that likely to happily coincide with a straightforward end to the cuts. It's quite possible that tax rate changes are needed that are quite different from what the tax rates looked like as Bush 43 took office.
| 562 |
wrenchwench Sat, Sep 24, 2011 9:34:37am |
re: #558 000G
The funny thing is that the Bush tax cuts having been sunset from the beginning so that they would look "temporary" but just end up on the plate of another administration down the road that would then look like they were about to raise taxes – is a parade example of "politically motivated change".
And essentially all tax laws are "temporary". None of them are the ten commandments. They can all be changed at any time, given the right political circumstances.
From one of my dozens of cousins on Facebook:
| 563 |
(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Sat, Sep 24, 2011 9:36:18am |
re: #555 Obdicut
It's something he'd condemn, because progressive taxation can only take place inside a capitalist system.
Not technically true, because Marx did assume that you needed to (and, from his pov, indeed had to) advance through Capitalism in order to get to Communism:
We have seen above, that the first step in the revolution by the working class is to raise the proletariat to the position of ruling class to win the battle of democracy.
The proletariat will use its political supremacy to wrest, by degree, all capital from the bourgeoisie, to centralise all instruments of production in the hands of the State, i.e., of the proletariat organised as the ruling class; and to increase the total productive forces as rapidly as possible.
Of course, in the beginning, this cannot be effected except by means of despotic inroads on the rights of property, and on the conditions of bourgeois production; by means of measures, therefore, which appear economically insufficient and untenable, but which, in the course of the movement, outstrip themselves, necessitate further inroads upon the old social order, and are unavoidable as a means of entirely revolutionising the mode of production.
These measures will, of course, be different in different countries.
Nevertheless, in most advanced countries, the following will be pretty generally applicable.
1. Abolition of property in land and application of all rents of land to public purposes.
2. A heavy progressive or graduated income tax.
3. Abolition of all rights of inheritance.
4. Confiscation of the property of all emigrants and rebels.
5. Centralisation of credit in the hands of the state, by means of a national bank with State capital and an exclusive monopoly.
6. Centralisation of the means of communication and transport in the hands of the State.
7. Extension of factories and instruments of production owned by the State; the bringing into cultivation of waste-lands, and the improvement of the soil generally in accordance with a common plan.
8. Equal liability of all to work. Establishment of industrial armies, especially for agriculture.
9. Combination of agriculture with manufacturing industries; gradual abolition of all the distinction between town and country by a more equable distribution of the populace over the country.
10. Free education for all children in public schools. Abolition of children’s factory labour in its present form. Combination of education with industrial production, &c, &c.
[Link: www.marxists.org...]
| 564 |
Daniel Ballard Sat, Sep 24, 2011 9:38:28am |
re: #551 000G
Clearly both sides of the debate abuse terms regularly as a routine application of rhetoric to serve their point. Partisans is as partisan does. It's not just the GOP and the right.
| 565 |
(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Sat, Sep 24, 2011 9:38:37am |
re: #560 sattv4u2
I gave snark?
The part about your "experience" smelled of it. I could explain but that would take long.
| 566 |
Obdicut Sat, Sep 24, 2011 9:38:57am |
re: #563 000G
Did you notice the word 'heavy' in there or did you just decide it didn't matter?
| 567 |
(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Sat, Sep 24, 2011 9:39:09am |
re: #564 Rightwingconspirator
Clearly both sides of the debate abuse terms regularly as a routine application of rhetoric to serve their point. Partisans is as partisan does. It's not just the GOP and the right.
There you go with the magical balance fairy again.
| 568 |
Daniel Ballard Sat, Sep 24, 2011 9:40:29am |
re: #567 000G
That is becoming nothing more than a cheap shot at honest disagreements.
| 569 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Sat, Sep 24, 2011 9:41:18am |
re: #563 000G
"Abolition of children’s factory labour in its present form."
Obviously, anybody who roots for this is an evil Marxist.
| 570 |
(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Sat, Sep 24, 2011 9:41:39am |
re: #566 Obdicut
Did you notice the word 'heavy' in there or did you just decide it didn't matter?
I didn't "just decide" it: It really does not matter for the purpose of refuting your point which was that Marx would have objected to progressive taxation because that kind of taxation could only take place in a capitalist society. My point was that he did actually favor it in a capitalist society (or at least some of those societies) because in his mind it would lead to the proletariat taking political power and ending in communism.
| 571 |
Obdicut Sat, Sep 24, 2011 9:42:46am |
re: #564 Rightwingconspirator
There aren't two sides.
If you mean both GOP and Demcrats, sure, they both do it.
But Paul Ryan's stupid plan based on complete irreality is far, far more removed from sense and sanity than anything put out by the Democrats.
"Both sides do it" is an anodyne phrase meaning nothing. If I steal a piece of gum and someone else steals a million dollars, we're both thieves, we've both stolen, but you'd be a goddamn idiot to think that we were comparable or the same.
It matters not just what people do, but to what degree they do it.
There are areas where the Democrats are science morons. It doesn't compare with the breadth and panoply of anti-science positions staked out by the GOP. Saying both sides abuse science, for example, would ignore that.
Nobody has ever, ever made the claim that the Democrats never misuse figures, or never abuse science. It is not a claim that anyone has ever staked a position on, so attacking it seems bizarre.
| 572 |
(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Sat, Sep 24, 2011 9:43:38am |
re: #568 Rightwingconspirator
That is becoming nothing more than a cheap shot at honest disagreements.
Where is the honesty in 564? I point out a glaring flaw in DF's partisan rhetoric and you accuse "both sides" of doing the same? That's supposed to be honest? And what was the supposed "disagreement" about? What did you disagree with in my assessment of DF's partisan rhetoric? That I shouldn't have pointed it out because magical balance fairy?
| 573 |
Killgore Trout Sat, Sep 24, 2011 9:43:59am |
re: #561 Rightwingconspirator
The economic fix would be a cold objective look at the tax rates and apply the changes. Which are not all that likely to happily coincide with a straightforward end to the cuts. It's quite possible that tax rate changes are needed that are quite different from what the tax rates looked like as Bush 43 took office.
I'm pretty sure that's being looked at as well. The deficit is a huge problem and raising taxes on everybody in this economy is a bad idea. It makes perfect economic sense to repeal the Bush tax cuts for the wealthy now to help reduce the deficit. Further adjustments can be made when the economy recovers.
| 574 |
Daniel Ballard Sat, Sep 24, 2011 9:44:30am |
You Lizards all have a great day, I'm off this keyboard and up the mountain in pursuit of some natural beauty and some narrow trail hiking.
| 575 |
Obdicut Sat, Sep 24, 2011 9:45:23am |
re: #570 000G
My point was that he did actually favor it in a capitalist society (or at least some of those societies) because in his mind it would lead to the proletariat taking political power and ending in communism.
No, he favored a heavy progressive income tax in addition to a host of other measures.
You can't just strip out words from the sentence and take it out of context and claim you're not doing that. The word 'heavy' is there. It has meaning. It has especial meaning in context.
In the end, you could say it's moot because Marx didn't advocate anything, he was actually simply making a historical prediction. Big woop.
| 576 |
(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Sat, Sep 24, 2011 9:48:32am |
re: #575 Obdicut
No, he favored a heavy progressive income tax in addition to a host of other measures.
Actually, the original German just says "Starke Progressiv-Steuer".
You can't just strip out words from the sentence and take it out of context and claim you're not doing that. The word 'heavy' is there. It has meaning. It has especial meaning in context.
Enlighten me.
| 577 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Sat, Sep 24, 2011 9:49:21am |
re: #575 Obdicut
But Obdi, you said Marx would condemn progressive taxation. Do you stand by it?
| 578 |
Killgore Trout Sat, Sep 24, 2011 9:51:01am |
re: #574 Rightwingconspirator
You Lizards all have a great day, I'm off this keyboard and up the mountain in pursuit of some natural beauty and some narrow trail hiking.
Just in case you're still round you did inspire me to check out the Buffet Rule. Here's the fairest assessment I could find....
Obama, taxes and the ‘Buffett Rule’
We don’t have enough data to make a Pinocchio ruling, but we were struck by the fact that at a White House briefing, administration officials resolutely refused to explain how the Buffett Rule would be put into effect. “Now, there are lots of different ways to achieve that principle,” Treasury Secretary Timothy Geithner said. “How you do it depends on what you do to the broader tax system as a whole. … We’re going to fight to make sure that's part of what Congress considers and ultimately delivers.”
In other words, it may be an effective political argument, even if it’s not really much of a problem.
Ok, that does look like more of political grandstanding than actual good tax policy.
| 579 |
(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Sat, Sep 24, 2011 9:51:10am |
re: #575 Obdicut
In the end, you could say it's moot because Marx didn't advocate anything, he was actually simply making a historical prediction. Big woop.
Heh. Yeah. I used to score points with conservative teachers by making fun of Marx's deterministic aspects by pointing out that if those were true then why did he write what he wrote...
| 580 |
Obdicut Sat, Sep 24, 2011 9:54:07am |
re: #576 000G
Fuck it. It's really not worth it fighting over a nitpick.
The point is that Marx is observing a large number of conditions that he believes will take place on the way towards communism. While he might favor progressive taxation if it was arrived at from first a perspective of flat taxation, he'd very highly condemn it if it came into being after a period of communism, as counterrevolutionary and reactionary. Not that he really considered that he'd be wrong, of course, or that history could flow in the direction as well.
The point, which for whatever reason you're dragging us away from, is that the concept of progressive taxation is not something that Marx sees as a good except inasmuch as it might be trans-formative into something else. He doesn't see it as something that he wants as an end goal. If Marx observed a society with progressive taxation, he would think they were on their way to full communism-- which would no longer involve progressive taxation-- and he would advocate-- in so far as he ever advocated for anything, for the abolition of all private property. Which would render the progressive income tax moot.
Geez.
| 581 |
Gretchen G.Tiger Sat, Sep 24, 2011 9:56:01am |
Well, all
so far, I've picked-up the kid
purchased the paper
went thru the ads/coupons
did one load of laundry (waiting for dryer to finish)
figured out my shopping for the weekend
made another pot of coffee
What have you accomplished?
| 582 |
Killgore Trout Sat, Sep 24, 2011 9:57:29am |
re: #581 ggt
What have you accomplished?
Nothing yet but we're expecting a few days of rain so I have some work in the garden to do today.
| 583 |
Obdicut Sat, Sep 24, 2011 9:58:06am |
re: #577 Sergey Romanov
But Obdi, you said Marx would condemn progressive taxation. Do you stand by it?
Jesus. Yes, Marx would condemn progressive taxation if that were the final steady-state policy. If a society had had progressive taxation going on for a thousand years and none of the other aspects Marx had predicted in that section had come about, Marx would condemn it.
Would he think it was better than a flat tax? Yes. Would he think it was better than the abolition of private property? No.
The point, again: The idea of progressive taxation is not a Marxist one. The only perspective from which it is Marxist is if it is with the objective, along with all the other measures that Marx put in, to destroy class distinctions, empower the proletariat, and bring about the communist revolution.
As a solution to allow a capitalist society to continue, it is decidedly non-Marxist.
If progressive taxation is Marxist, then so is capitalism as a whole, since Marx saw it as a step along the path to communism.
| 584 |
(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Sat, Sep 24, 2011 9:58:28am |
re: #580 Obdicut
The point, which for whatever reason you're dragging us away from, is that the concept of progressive taxation is not something that Marx sees as a good except inasmuch as it might be trans-formative into something else. He doesn't see it as something that he wants as an end goal. If Marx observed a society with progressive taxation, he would think they were on their way to full communism-- which would no longer involve progressive taxation-- and he would advocate-- in so far as he ever advocated for anything, for the abolition of all private property. Which would render the progressive income tax moot.
But that is exactly the point of Marx's dialectic view of history, Obdicut. You cannot seperate Marx and dialectics.
| 585 |
(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Sat, Sep 24, 2011 10:01:11am |
Anyhow, I am glad we all agree. BBL.
| 586 |
Gretchen G.Tiger Sat, Sep 24, 2011 10:01:49am |
I haven't read Marx and the only way I got any idea of Adam Smith was to read P.J. O'Rourke's "dummies" version. Having confessed my ignorance . . .
What, truly kind of economic system do we have?
We say Capitalistic, but as I understand the nature of Capitalism, it is very dog eat dog -- we have safety nets in place and purposefully support those who cannot support themselves to some degree (entitlements).
I understand no economic system is "pure" in is execution as it is in ideology.
| 587 |
Obdicut Sat, Sep 24, 2011 10:02:04am |
re: #584 000G
But that is exactly the point of Marx's dialectic view of history, Obdicut. You cannot seperate Marx and dialectics.
Okay. So Marx is actually pro-capitalist, then, right? I mean, you can't say he'd be for or against anything in capitalism, since it's all on the path to communism, neh?
You can certainly separate Marx's view of the final, steady-state of history-- the communist world-- from the historical path he thought would lead there. The former is the goal, or at least, the prediction-- though it's rather clear he approved of that final state quite strongly.
So there's obviously an enormous difference between the historical phases that Marx thought it'd be necessary for us to go through and the final stage that he thought was the goal.
| 588 |
Obdicut Sat, Sep 24, 2011 10:03:43am |
re: #586 ggt
We have a mixed economy, like all modern economies, with the exception of places like Rwanda and North Korea. Though North Korea may now be mixed, I dunno.
| 589 |
Gretchen G.Tiger Sat, Sep 24, 2011 10:04:25am |
re: #588 Obdicut
We have a mixed economy, like all modern economies, with the exception of places like Rwanda and North Korea. Though North Korea may now be mixed, I dunno.
Mixed Communism and Capitalisim?
| 590 |
Obdicut Sat, Sep 24, 2011 10:09:56am |
re: #589 ggt
Mixed Communism and Capitalisim?
Heh. No. Um, communism is both a political and economic system. Capitalism is only an economic one.
We have a mixed economy between a market economy (all economic activity derived from the actions of the market) and a planned economy (all economic activity derived from the actions of the state).
So, if the state spends tax money directly on building a thousand telephone poles, that's part of the planned economy aspect. But they'll probably buy those poles and the materials from a private supplier, without dictating price to him, which means even in that, there's a private aspect.
The spectrum is not capitalism and communism, it's planned and market. However, as usual, even that is an oversimplification. A pure-market economy on its own will lead to distortions that then resemble the worst aspects of a planned economy, as was seen in the fur-trade in early America. Those with the most power will be able to dictate terms to all other parties, and essentially force an economic 'plan'.
| 591 |
wrenchwench Sat, Sep 24, 2011 10:10:51am |
| 592 |
Gretchen G.Tiger Sat, Sep 24, 2011 10:15:18am |
re: #590 Obdicut
Heh. No. Um, communism is both a political and economic system. Capitalism is only an economic one.
We have a mixed economy between a market economy (all economic activity derived from the actions of the market) and a planned economy (all economic activity derived from the actions of the state).
So, if the state spends tax money directly on building a thousand telephone poles, that's part of the planned economy aspect. But they'll probably buy those poles and the materials from a private supplier, without dictating price to him, which means even in that, there's a private aspect.
The spectrum is not capitalism and communism, it's planned and market. However, as usual, even that is an oversimplification. A pure-market economy on its own will lead to distortions that then resemble the worst aspects of a planned economy, as was seen in the fur-trade in early America. Those with the most power will be able to dictate terms to all other parties, and essentially force an economic 'plan'.
ah!
| 593 |
Obdicut Sat, Sep 24, 2011 10:18:59am |
re: #592 ggt
Another good way to look at it is the company store.
When you had a job at a company that provided your wages, lived in housing at prices set by that company, and shopped in stores owned by that company, it was technically a purely market-driven economy. However, obviously, from your perspective, it was a command economy, a planned economy.
Likewise, back before labor laws, the relationship between employer and laborer was technically part of the free market economy, but given the relative power of capital to labor, meant that in the end labor was always exploited and capital could mostly dictate price.
| 594 |
Gretchen G.Tiger Sat, Sep 24, 2011 10:21:50am |
re: #593 Obdicut
Another good way to look at it is the company store.
When you had a job at a company that provided your wages, lived in housing at prices set by that company, and shopped in stores owned by that company, it was technically a purely market-driven economy. However, obviously, from your perspective, it was a command economy, a planned economy.
Likewise, back before labor laws, the relationship between employer and laborer was technically part of the free market economy, but given the relative power of capital to labor, meant that in the end labor was always exploited and capital could mostly dictate price.
I like the term "command economy" because is such a setting, you have to buy what is offered whether it is your preference or not.
| 595 |
Obdicut Sat, Sep 24, 2011 10:25:21am |
re: #594 ggt
Yes. And it's easy to see how many times a market economy is really a command economy, where people can choose to either sell their labor at the price dictated by the one company, or group of companies in collusion, or starve. The latter choice is not a real choice.
The bargaining and competitive aspect of a market economy is great, but many advocates of market capitalism overlook that there's many ways for a market economy to lose that aspect of bargain and competition and become every bit as restrictive as a planned economy.
| 596 |
Romantic Heretic Sat, Sep 24, 2011 10:25:39am |
re: #552 Rightwingconspirator
Now that the 2nd was finally enshrined as an individual right, we can move the debate on to those devilish details like dumping city wide gun bans, and enacting regulations that allow the law abiding to have the best contemporary defensive tool, and punish the criminal access, possession or use of a handgun.
How does that differ from gun control, as I see it?
| 597 |
Romantic Heretic Sat, Sep 24, 2011 10:30:30am |
re: #563 000G
He meant well, but I regard Marx as a dolt.
The funny thing is most modern 'capitalists' (I quote because few of them are) agree with Marx on how a capitalist system works. The only difference is that Marx thought this was a bad thing and the 'capitalists' think this is a good thing.
| 598 |
Gretchen G.Tiger Sat, Sep 24, 2011 10:31:11am |
re: #595 Obdicut
Yes. And it's easy to see how many times a market economy is really a command economy, where people can choose to either sell their labor at the price dictated by the one company, or group of companies in collusion, or starve. The latter choice is not a real choice.
The bargaining and competitive aspect of a market economy is great, but many advocates of market capitalism overlook that there's many ways for a market economy to lose that aspect of bargain and competition and become every bit as restrictive as a planned economy.
This is where I get confused about Unions. If labor is setting it's wage price, how is that different from a company setting wage price--I understand there are negotiations. The company sets the price based on market & profit projections--what they think will be actual cash on hand (in theory). Labor negotiates from the "need" of the worker.
Two opposing forces, that are both subjective to a great degree.
| 599 |
Achilles Tang Sat, Sep 24, 2011 10:32:37am |
re: #485 Dark_Falcon
That rhetoric that calls for redistribution, such as Obama put out just this month. Raising taxes on one group of people to provide benefits to another.
It is not redistribution, it is paying your fair share.
| 600 |
Achilles Tang Sat, Sep 24, 2011 10:34:57am |
re: #598 ggt
Two opposing forces, that are both subjective to a great degree.
Quite right. That's why there is such a thing as negotiation, to prevent only one force.
| 601 |
Gretchen G.Tiger Sat, Sep 24, 2011 10:35:42am |
re: #599 Naso Tang
It is not redistribution, it is paying your fair share.
There comes a point in which someone's "earned" income is not just a matter of their personal sweat and hard work.
The super-rich depend on thousands and thousands of people to earn their money for them. I don't have a problem with a higher tax rate for these individuals.
The small businessman who works 24/7 and makes $1M, taking his money is IMHO redistribution. Unfortunately $1M isn't what it used to be.
| 602 |
Kronocide Sat, Sep 24, 2011 10:40:47am |
re: #590 Obdicut
Heh. No. Um, communism is both a political and economic system. Capitalism is only an economic one.
Literally speaking I would agree, as with the elaboration following this point. However, it seems that capitalism unfettered becomes part of the political environment, like the blue veins in a really good bleu cheese. When that happens, it's easy to see capitalism as political.
| 603 |
Gretchen G.Tiger Sat, Sep 24, 2011 10:40:55am |
There are a lot of history on how the British Crown used to try to control things.
They would not allow colonists to buy or sell products they produced without the Crown being involved. Ghandi made a big deal out of spinning his own cotton etc.
There are precedents for government overreaching it's boundries -- as many as we see now with Corporate Trans-National Corruption.
All of which I find very interesting.
It seems that no matter how much we try to create a "fair" system, it will always be adversarial and, at some points in time, very unfair.
| 604 |
Achilles Tang Sat, Sep 24, 2011 10:41:21am |
re: #601 ggt
There comes a point in which someone's "earned" income is not just a matter of their personal sweat and hard work.
The super-rich depend on thousands and thousands of people to earn their money for them. I don't have a problem with a higher tax rate for these individuals.
The small businessman who works 24/7 and makes $1M, taking his money is IMHO redistribution. Unfortunately $1M isn't what it used to be.
People bandy about "small business" and $1 million too easily. A business that has $1 million in revenue may be a small business, but does not pay its owner $1 million. A business owner who pays himself $1 million, per year, in taxable income after deductions up the wazzoo is no small business.
Give me $1 million and I retire tomorrow, never mind what it used to be worth.
| 605 |
Gretchen G.Tiger Sat, Sep 24, 2011 10:43:48am |
re: #604 Naso Tang
People bandy about "small business" and $1 million too easily. A business that has $1 million in revenue may be a small business, but does not pay its owner $1 million. A business owner who pays himself $1 million, per year, in taxable income after deductions up the wazzoo is no small business.
Give me $1 million and I retire tomorrow, never mind what it used to be worth.
Exactly. People who have never owned their own business or been involved in a family business have no idea how little one can actually take home. Not to mention the liability one takes on in having employees and producing a product.
| 606 |
Obdicut Sat, Sep 24, 2011 10:45:41am |
re: #598 ggt
This is where I get confused about Unions. If labor is setting it's wage price, how is that different from a company setting wage price
Because the union doesn't set it. It comes about in negotiation.
I understand there are negotiations. The company sets the price based on market & profit projections--what they think will be actual cash on hand (in theory). Labor negotiates from the "need" of the worker.
no, that is wrong. The company wants the lowest possible wage and the least possible amount of money spent on safety and the like. It's to minimize expenditure.
Labor doesn't negotate from the need of the laborer, but from the value of the labor. they know that the value of the labor is more than the company will ever pay for it. They are attempting to get the value the laborer is paid for as close to its real value as is possible.
Two opposing forces, that are both subjective to a great degree.
Can I ask where you formed the idea that unions negotiate based on the 'need' of the worker?
| 607 |
Gretchen G.Tiger Sat, Sep 24, 2011 10:46:53am |
re: #604 Naso Tang
People bandy about "small business" and $1 million too easily. A business that has $1 million in revenue may be a small business, but does not pay its owner $1 million. A business owner who pays himself $1 million, per year, in taxable income after deductions up the wazzoo is no small business.
Give me $1 million and I retire tomorrow, never mind what it used to be worth.
Although I'd say it has taken that business owner a lot of time and sweat to get to that first $1M in personal income.
Perhaps a 1 year break, and after than you get taxed extra.
LOL
| 608 |
Obdicut Sat, Sep 24, 2011 10:46:59am |
re: #597 Romantic Heretic
Marx's critique of capitalism is very good. However, he failed to apply those critical powers to his own political and economic ideas.
| 609 |
recusancy Sat, Sep 24, 2011 10:48:24am |
re: #598 ggt
This is where I get confused about Unions. If labor is setting it's wage price, how is that different from a company setting wage price--I understand there are negotiations. The company sets the price based on market & profit projections--what they think will be actual cash on hand (in theory). Labor negotiates from the "need" of the worker.
Two opposing forces, that are both subjective to a great degree.
You answered your own question. Labor doesn't set it's wage price. It negotiates to a compromise on wage price.
| 610 |
Gretchen G.Tiger Sat, Sep 24, 2011 10:49:32am |
re: #606 Obdicut
Because the union doesn't set it. It comes about in negotiation.
no, that is wrong. The company wants the lowest possible wage and the least possible amount of money spent on safety and the like. It's to minimize expenditure.
Labor doesn't negotate from the need of the laborer, but from the value of the labor. they know that the value of the labor is more than the company will ever pay for it. They are attempting to get the value the laborer is paid for as close to its real value as is possible.
Can I ask where you formed the idea that unions negotiate based on the 'need' of the worker?
Because when I look for a job, I look for a wage that will allow me to pay my bills and put something in savings. I don't understand how someone would arrive at a "value" of a worker --compare to what non-unions workers are making in the same field?
Workers want a living wage --more if they can get it.
Companies what to pay as little as possible to preserve profit and make stockholders happy.
| 611 |
recusancy Sat, Sep 24, 2011 10:50:53am |
re: #601 ggt
There comes a point in which someone's "earned" income is not just a matter of their personal sweat and hard work.
The super-rich depend on thousands and thousands of people to earn their money for them. I don't have a problem with a higher tax rate for these individuals.
The small businessman who works 24/7 and makes $1M, taking his money is IMHO redistribution. Unfortunately $1M isn't what it used to be.
If that small business owner is actually taking home $1M then, yes, they are rich. They are a millionaire.
| 612 |
Achilles Tang Sat, Sep 24, 2011 10:51:30am |
re: #607 ggt
Although I'd say it has taken that business owner a lot of time and sweat to get to that first $1M in personal income.
Perhaps a 1 year break, and after than you get taxed extra.
LOL
It's good that you laughed first.
| 613 |
Gretchen G.Tiger Sat, Sep 24, 2011 10:53:40am |
re: #612 Naso Tang
It's good that you laughed first.
I know a few people who have worked their asses off to make, to me, what is a lot of money. They are no where near the Bill Gates or even the Rick Perry level of rich.
| 614 |
Obdicut Sat, Sep 24, 2011 10:54:38am |
re: #610 ggt
Because when I look for a job, I look for a wage that will allow me to pay my bills and put something in savings. I don't understand how someone would arrive at a "value" of a worker --compare to what non-unions workers are making in the same field?
No. A simplest example is that of a skilled woodworker.
The company knows it costs them $1 in overhead per day for that woodworker, for the space, light, rent, etc.
They know that he can produce $300 worth of chairs in that day.
So, the profit they make from that worker is $299.
The goal of the company is to pay him as little as possible, so that that money is profit.
The goal of the union is for them to pay him as close to the true value of his labor as possible.
Workers want a living wage --more if they can get it.
Companies what to pay as little as possible to preserve profit and make stockholders happy.
The idea of unions was actually to break away from the idea of sustenance wages and towards workers earning their fare share, the value of their labor. What you're describing was the attitude labor had back in the days before unions.
That unions have become so powerless and corporations so strong of late that unions are pleading with wage increases up to the level of a sustenance wage is a sign of the weakness of unions and the strength of companies. That's not how it's 'supposed' to work.
| 615 |
jaunte Sat, Sep 24, 2011 10:56:15am |
The super-rich depend on thousands and thousands of people to earn their money for them.
It's better for the economy overall if those thousands and thousands of people are able to keep as much discretionary income as possible. The rich and super-rich are not a large enough consumer market to keep the economy going if the rest of the population aren't able to spend without going into debt.
| 616 |
Obdicut Sat, Sep 24, 2011 10:56:41am |
re: #613 ggt
I know a few people who have worked their asses off to make, to me, what is a lot of money. They are no where near the Bill Gates or even the Rick Perry level of rich.
I don't know of anyone who's personally made a million dollars without needing to hire other people along the way or belong to a larger company.
There's very few one-man million dollar companies out there.
But the point more is that when the GOP objects to raising taxes on people making above 250K as a tax on 'small business owners', they're being intentionally deceptive. It won't affect any more than a very small percentage of small business owners.
| 617 |
Gretchen G.Tiger Sat, Sep 24, 2011 10:56:57am |
re: #614 Obdicut
No. A simplest example is that of a skilled woodworker.
The company knows it costs them $1 in overhead per day for that woodworker, for the space, light, rent, etc.
They know that he can produce $300 worth of chairs in that day.
So, the profit they make from that worker is $299.
The goal of the company is to pay him as little as possible, so that that money is profit.
The goal of the union is for them to pay him as close to the true value of his labor as possible.
The idea of unions was actually to break away from the idea of sustenance wages and towards workers earning their fare share, the value of their labor. What you're describing was the attitude labor had back in the days before unions.
That unions have become so powerless and corporations so strong of late that unions are pleading with wage increases up to the level of a sustenance wage is a sign of the weakness of unions and the strength of companies. That's not how it's 'supposed' to work.
I guess, that I don't think they can realistically determine that the chair can sell for $300 consistently. If the market controls the price, year to year it changes --costs of materials changes. Laws and regulations change at the drop of hat.
| 618 |
Kronocide Sat, Sep 24, 2011 10:58:35am |
re: #615 jaunte
It's better for the economy overall if those thousands and thousands of people are able to keep as much discretionary income as possible. The rich and super-rich are not a large enough consumer market to keep the economy going if the rest of the population aren't able to spend without going into debt.
What about the workers who make really expensive wine and yachts?
/dripping with pinot sarc
| 619 |
Gretchen G.Tiger Sat, Sep 24, 2011 11:00:10am |
re: #616 Obdicut
I don't know of anyone who's personally made a million dollars without needing to hire other people along the way or belong to a larger company.
There's very few one-man million dollar companies out there.
But the point more is that when the GOP objects to raising taxes on people making above 250K as a tax on 'small business owners', they're being intentionally deceptive. It won't affect any more than a very small percentage of small business owners.
They are being deceptive.
$250K is still a far cry from the money cult that is making these laws.
| 620 |
Obdicut Sat, Sep 24, 2011 11:00:10am |
re: #617 ggt
I guess, that I don't think they can realistically determine that the chair can sell for $300 consistently.
Well, of course they can. They usually have signed contracts with their wholesalers to that effect.
If the market controls the price, year to year it changes --costs of materials changes. Laws and regulations change at the drop of hat.
Yes, their profit margin may shift based on the cost of their materials. Or the demand may drop. However, if companies really couldn't tell that, nobody would ever do anything. I'm sorry, but you're wrong about this: companies spend a lot of effort on, but are quite good about, predicting the market for their goods. In some areas, the market is incredibly consistent.
Are you familiar with the terms elastic and inelastic when applied to goods?
| 621 |
Gretchen G.Tiger Sat, Sep 24, 2011 11:00:49am |
re: #620 Obdicut
Well, of course they can. They usually have signed contracts with their wholesalers to that effect.
Yes, their profit margin may shift based on the cost of their materials. Or the demand may drop. However, if companies really couldn't tell that, nobody would ever do anything. I'm sorry, but you're wrong about this: companies spend a lot of effort on, but are quite good about, predicting the market for their goods. In some areas, the market is incredibly consistent.
Are you familiar with the terms elastic and inelastic when applied to goods?
yes
| 622 |
jaunte Sat, Sep 24, 2011 11:01:04am |
re: #618 BigPapa
It's the flip side of the argument that "we just can't tax the rich enough to fix the deficit." The wealthy just can't consume enough to keep the economy healthy. So their own best long term interest (contrary to the tea party rhetoric) is served by more progressive taxation.
| 623 |
Obdicut Sat, Sep 24, 2011 11:02:16am |
re: #617 ggt
And more importantly, given the following situation:
Laborer performs eight hours of labor, making eight chairs from $10 of materials, consuming $1 of rent and $5 of other overhead, and the chairs are then sold to a wholesaler that day for $300, that the value of his labor is $274 for that day? The company will not pay him the full amount of his labor, because they seek a profit. But that is what his labor is worth-- that is what he would earn if he had the capital to labor for himself instead of another.
| 624 |
Gretchen G.Tiger Sat, Sep 24, 2011 11:04:50am |
re: #623 Obdicut
And more importantly, given the following situation:
Laborer performs eight hours of labor, making eight chairs from $10 of materials, consuming $1 of rent and $5 of other overhead, and the chairs are then sold to a wholesaler that day for $300, that the value of his labor is $274 for that day? The company will not pay him the full amount of his labor, because they seek a profit. But that is what his labor is worth-- that is what he would earn if he had the capital to labor for himself instead of another.
LOL
It's easier and cheaper to work for someone else, IMHO.
If he had the income from making that chair, he'd also have the overhead and the headaches.
At least that is the tradeoff I made when I stopped working for myself. It wasn't worth the time I put into the business above and beyond the normal work day.
| 625 |
Obdicut Sat, Sep 24, 2011 11:07:00am |
re: #621 ggt
yes
Okay. So how much the price of a good will fluctuate is based on its elasticity. Some good are very inelastic. For example, baseballs; the number of baseballs consumed in the US per year tends to be pretty stable. It follows fluctuations from region to region, but overall, it tends to hang pretty steady, with only long-term trends. If you're a baseball manufacturer, or someone who sells to a baseball manufacturer, you can rely that the price and the quantity will be similar to last years.
There is uncertainty and doubt in the market, but if there were so much so that you couldn't predict at all what price you'd sell something at, you simply wouldn't make that product, or that'd be a rare and risky product.
| 627 |
Kronocide Sat, Sep 24, 2011 11:07:42am |
re: #622 jaunte
It's the flip side of the argument that "we just can't tax the rich enough to fix the deficit." The wealthy just can't consume enough to keep the economy healthy. So their own best long term interests (contrary to the tea party rhetoric) is served by more progressive taxation.
I get what your saying, at least conceptually. My profession thrives directly off the wealthy but I can't see their spending affecting the economy as a whole. They don't buy many Accords and eat at Applebees.
I sense there's a good argument here but I'm still getting my head around it.
| 628 |
Obdicut Sat, Sep 24, 2011 11:09:50am |
re: #624 ggt
LOL
It's easier and cheaper to work for someone else, IMHO.
If he had the income from making that chair, he'd also have the overhead and the headaches.
Right. I'm not arguing which is better. I'm simply demonstrating what the value of labor is.
At least that is the tradeoff I made when I stopped working for myself. It wasn't worth the time I put into the business above and beyond the normal work day.
But you can actually figure that amount as overhead, too. I'm calculating that as part of the cost of the overhead, the time spent by people managing that woodworker.
The actual owners of large companies tend to be hedge funds and the like, who spend very little time engaged in headaches about the actual businesses they own. The complete lack of sense of responsibility on the part of stockholders is one of the big problems with America-- and the world-- today. People feel no responsibility for the actions of companies they own.
| 629 |
jaunte Sat, Sep 24, 2011 11:15:34am |
re: #627 BigPapa
I think that taxing work at a higher rate than 'unearned' income (capital gains) means that tax cuts have given a lot to the wealthy and only a token amount to everyone else. That results long term in a negative effect on investments, because fewer people have enough income, and they tend not to buy stuff. So it seems that keeping more money in the hands of a broader lower-income group would help everyone, including the investor class.
| 630 |
Gretchen G.Tiger Sat, Sep 24, 2011 11:16:28am |
re: #628 Obdicut
Right. I'm not arguing which is better. I'm simply demonstrating what the value of labor is.
But you can actually figure that amount as overhead, too. I'm calculating that as part of the cost of the overhead, the time spent by people managing that woodworker.
The actual owners of large companies tend to be hedge funds and the like, who spend very little time engaged in headaches about the actual businesses they own. The complete lack of sense of responsibility on the part of stockholders is one of the big problems with America-- and the world-- today. People feel no responsibility for the actions of companies they own.
That I can agree with. If Stockholders were liable and named in lawsuits, things would be much different.
The whole corporate structure can be so complex. A little S-Corp is so much easier to comprehend.
HA!
| 631 |
Gretchen G.Tiger Sat, Sep 24, 2011 11:20:22am |
re: #625 Obdicut
Okay. So how much the price of a good will fluctuate is based on its elasticity. Some good are very inelastic. For example, baseballs; the number of baseballs consumed in the US per year tends to be pretty stable. It follows fluctuations from region to region, but overall, it tends to hang pretty steady, with only long-term trends. If you're a baseball manufacturer, or someone who sells to a baseball manufacturer, you can rely that the price and the quantity will be similar to last years.
There is uncertainty and doubt in the market, but if there were so much so that you couldn't predict at all what price you'd sell something at, you simply wouldn't make that product, or that'd be a rare and risky product.
I actually have fears this will come to pass.
But, we are talking about tangible products. What about services?
| 632 |
recusancy Sat, Sep 24, 2011 11:21:53am |
re: #631 ggt
I actually have fears this will come to pass.
But, we are talking about tangible products. What about services?
Which products do you fear will stop being produced?
| 633 |
Gretchen G.Tiger Sat, Sep 24, 2011 11:23:25am |
re: #632 recusancy
Which products do you fear will stop being produced?
Nothing specific.
I just see so much emotional nonsense, I think there is a danger production might become more sporadic. I don't have any concrete ideas about this. Just fears.
| 634 |
Kronocide Sat, Sep 24, 2011 11:25:28am |
re: #629 jaunte
I think that taxing work at a higher rate than 'unearned' income (capital gains) means that tax cuts have given a lot to the wealthy and only a token amount to everyone else. That results long term in a negative effect on investments, because fewer people have enough income, and they tend not to buy stuff. So it seems that keeping more money in the hands of a broader lower-income group would help everyone, including the investor class.
I get your point and am considering the this alternative.
You realize the blasphemy of such though crime?
| 636 |
Obdicut Sat, Sep 24, 2011 11:25:52am |
re: #631 ggt
What about them? Prices fluctuate in the market, but the fluctuate tends to be withing a range. The market is fluid but except in rare cases it's not insane.
If you're a plumbing services company, you can estimate that about as many people will be willing to pay about as much as they did last year.
That uncertainty is not the root of why companies don't want to pay workers more. They want to pay workers as little as possible, period, because that gives them the greatest profit. The only exception to this are companies that differentiate based on the skill of the worker, or those that are far-sighted enough to want to increase the buying capacity of their worker class.
But those few exceptions beside, you don't need to look for factors like risk in order to explain why companies want to get as much profit for as little cost out of their workers. That is the definition of what they want in any engagement. It doesn't require explanation.
So, the purpose of the union is to agitate for the laborer getting a larger share of that value that he ads to the product.
In modern terms, over the past twenty years labor has lost this fight, as our productivity has risen, but wages have stagnated. Companies are making more profit off the labor of workers, and that is what is driving the class divide.
| 637 |
jaunte Sat, Sep 24, 2011 11:28:30am |
re: #634 BigPapa
It's shocking, I know. Imagine asking corporations to think long-term.
| 638 |
recusancy Sat, Sep 24, 2011 11:29:24am |
re: #633 ggt
Nothing specific.
I just see so much emotional nonsense, I think there is a danger production might become more sporadic. I don't have any concrete ideas about this. Just fears.
When you say "I just see" I think you mean "I just have". Productivity is sky high. Production of anything of use is not in danger of halting.
| 639 |
Kronocide Sat, Sep 24, 2011 11:44:48am |
Having Cap Gains lower than work income is actually working against supply side economics.
The impetus is for less trickling down, since nobody wants to work but just sit back and reap dividends.
| 640 |
Mich-again Sat, Sep 24, 2011 12:06:36pm |
re: #181 Gus 802
Dang thats a tough story there. Sweet guitar though.
| 641 |
Mich-again Sat, Sep 24, 2011 12:11:41pm |
re: #636 Obdicut
They want to pay workers as little as possible, period, because that gives them the greatest profit.
Well either that or they're just trying to compete with companies from the developing world where labor costs are much lower.
| 642 |
Obdicut Sat, Sep 24, 2011 12:14:37pm |
re: #641 Mich-again
Well either that or they're just trying to compete with companies from the developing world where labor costs are much lower.
Those two things are not at all in opposition. It's in fact an affirmation of what I'm saying. They want to compete with companies that pay their workers five cents an hour. They'd like to be able to lower workers wages here to that level.
| 643 |
(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Sat, Sep 24, 2011 2:59:01pm |
re: #587 Obdicut
Okay. So Marx is actually pro-capitalist, then, right? I mean, you can't say he'd be for or against anything in capitalism, since it's all on the path to communism, neh?
Like it or not, this was actually a point Lenin tried to develop even further: Helping capitalism evolve was supposed to hasten its decay and the onset of Socialism.
You can certainly separate Marx's view of the final, steady-state of history-- the communist world-- from the historical path he thought would lead there. The former is the goal, or at least, the prediction-- though it's rather clear he approved of that final state quite strongly.
So there's obviously an enormous difference between the historical phases that Marx thought it'd be necessary for us to go through and the final stage that he thought was the goal.
Yes, and you chose to ignore that difference in your initial statement – but that difference is essential to understand Marx.
| 644 |
Obdicut Sat, Sep 24, 2011 3:04:24pm |
re: #643 000G
Like it or not, this was actually a point Lenin tried to develop even further: Helping capitalism evolve was supposed to hasten its decay and the onset of Socialism.
Do you think I don't understand that?
Yes, and you chose to ignore that difference in your initial statement – but that difference is essential to understand Marx
Sure. But I wasn't attempting to help anyone understand Marx. I was rejecting the idea that a progressive tax is "Marxist." You're choosing to understand Marxist as meaning supporting anything along the road to communism, which means that a Marxist supports Feudalism, Capitalism, Socialism, and everything in between.
Hardly useful.
| 645 |
(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Sat, Sep 24, 2011 3:07:58pm |
re: #644 Obdicut
Do you think I don't understand that?
The sarcastic way you chose your words, it was hard to see whether you did.
Sure. But I wasn't attempting to help anyone understand Marx. I was rejecting the idea that a progressive tax is "Marxist." You're choosing to understand Marxist as meaning supporting anything along the road to communism, which means that a Marxist supports Feudalism, Capitalism, Socialism, and everything in between.
Hardly useful.
You made an assertion about Marx that seemed to me be to only half-true. Big whoopdeedoo.
Further: Marxists have been hardly useful indeed when it comes to historiography or philosophy of history.
But no, Marxists would usually "support" what the current historical social situation required in order to evolve into the next stage. Not "everything in between" and all at once, except in hindsight.
| 646 |
(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Sat, Sep 24, 2011 3:13:55pm |
re: #597 Romantic Heretic
He meant well, but I regard Marx as a dolt.
The funny thing is most modern 'capitalists' (I quote because few of them are) agree with Marx on how a capitalist system works. The only difference is that Marx thought this was a bad thing and the 'capitalists' think this is a good thing.
Heh. Marx actually despised the Socialists who only "meant well" (like the religious socialists, for instance). He was hell-bent on providing a political-economic analysis that was as close to science as possible.
I don't know whom you mean with "modern 'capitalists'". It's pretty obvious that most people have tried to move on from Marx.
Anyhow, I think things went wrong in economics way before Marx. "Capitalism" is a big classical misunderstanding that Marx only cemented. The neoclassical/keynesian misunderstanding "market economy" is hardly better.
| 647 |
Obdicut Sat, Sep 24, 2011 3:14:18pm |
re: #645 000G
The sarcastic way you chose your words, it was hard to see whether you did.
Really? After all I wrote about Marx's historical view of politics, you still don't know if I get it or not?
That's odd.
You made an assertion about Marx that seemed to me be to only half-true. Big whoopdeedoo.
Yes. And that wasn't in the least the important part of what I was saying. Great that you focused on that.
But no, Marxists would usually "support" what the current historical social situation required in order to evolve into the next stage. Not "everything in between" and all at once, except in hindsight.
Sure. So at only one given moment in time or history, for every country, would Marx support a progressive tax, and only if there were the proper other things going on at the same time. He certainly wouldn't support it as an end-state policy.
Why was this a necessary conversation? Or a useful one?
| 648 |
(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Sat, Sep 24, 2011 3:17:24pm |
re: #647 Obdicut
Great that you focused on that.
Why should I focus on things I agree with and don't have any further things to contribute to? Rather, I chose to focus on where I thought you erred. I don't like to just parrot and applaud.
Why was this a necessary conversation? Or a useful one?
We had it because you worded your initial statement awkwardly. Whether that answers any of your questions I don't know.
| 649 |
Obdicut Sat, Sep 24, 2011 3:24:17pm |
re: #648 000G
Why should I focus on things I agree with and don't have any further things to contribute to? Rather, I chose to focus on where I thought you erred. I don't like to just parrot and applaud.
Do you understand that it is not always necessary to point out an error? If the goal is clarity of argument, focusing on what is perceived as an error will not lead to a greater clarity of that argument or point, but instead a digression.
We had it because you worded your initial statement awkwardly. Whether that answers any of your questions I don't know.
Seriously. Do you feel this was a useful or necessary or in some way good conversation to have? The retreading that yes, Marx is dialectic (but imagined a final state, so not truly dialectical) in his view of history?
The original argument I was making was that progressive taxation was not in any fashion Marxist because it was not unique to Marx, not original with Marx, and highly peripheral to Marx. I also said that he'd condemn it, which I can now alter to that he'd condemn it (to the extent that his views on capitalism can be called condemnatory) except for certain circumstances where he'd be highly in favor of a heavy or "Starke" progressive taxation scheme, but only as a temporary measure before the abolition of private property as a whole.
Do you get the larger point that I was making, that progressive taxation being described as 'marxist' is ludicrous?
| 650 |
(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Sat, Sep 24, 2011 3:32:39pm |
re: #649 Obdicut
Do you understand that it is not always necessary to point out an error? If the goal is clarity of argument, focusing on what is perceived as an error will not lead to a greater clarity of that argument or point, but instead a digression.
Do you understand you could have ignored my point if you found it to be unneccessary to persue?
Seriously. Do you feel this was a useful or necessary or in some way good conversation to have? The retreading that yes, Marx is dialectic (but imagined a final state, so not truly dialectical) in his view of history?
Do you understand that people reading the conversation could have gotten wrong ideas about Marx from your wording and got clarification from me?
I also said that he'd condemn it, which I can now alter to that he'd condemn it (to the extent that his views on capitalism can be called condemnatory) except for certain circumstances where he'd be highly in favor of a heavy or "Starke" progressive taxation scheme, but only as a temporary measure before the abolition of private property as a whole.
You're welcome.
Do you get the larger point that I was making, that progressive taxation being described as 'marxist' is ludicrous?
Do you get that I always had gotten that?
| 651 |
Obdicut Sat, Sep 24, 2011 3:38:29pm |
re: #650 000G
Do you understand you could have ignored my point if you found it to be unneccessary to persue?
Sure. I'll just say 'that's nice' in the future. Sorry, I know that you're intelligent so I thought you might be pursuing an actually important point.
Do you understand that people reading the conversation could have gotten wrong ideas about Marx from your wording and got clarification from me?
Nope. You didn't actually clarify it in a discursive fashion. They would have also been badly informed by what you wrote, since you didn't go into it into enough detail to actually explain your objection thoroughly.
| 652 |
(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Sat, Sep 24, 2011 3:40:51pm |
re: #651 Obdicut
Sure. I'll just say 'that's nice' in the future. Sorry, I know that you're intelligent so I thought you might be pursuing an actually important point.
I thought the point was important. We may disagree on what is important.
Nope. You didn't actually clarify it in a discursive fashion.
Yes, I did.
They would have also been badly informed by what you wrote, since you didn't go into it into enough detail to actually explain your objection thoroughly.
You probably didn't read what I wrote thoroughly enough if that's what you got out of it.
| 653 |
Obdicut Sat, Sep 24, 2011 3:48:48pm |
re: #652 000G
You probably didn't read what I wrote thoroughly enough if that's what you got out of it.
I'm talking about your initial objection, which was this:
Not technically true, because Marx did assume that you needed to (and, from his pov, indeed had to) advance through Capitalism in order to get to Communism:
Which, I'd point out, does not make saying that Marx would condemn it 'not technically true'. There is no actual technical sense in which that could be true or not. And that brief objection does not in the least bit explain your point well enough.
And why are you objecting to the word being translated as 'heavy', anyway? Strong and heavy are cognates in English, in that context.
I don't mind at all you pointing out the flaw; it's perfectly true that Marx saw capitalism as stage to be worked through, just as he did feudalism. I was giving the perspective only of end-stage Marx, and not including the dialectic. Perfectly good point.
However, that doesn't mean the didn't also condemn capitalism. He did. He also condemned feudalism. There is only one political and economic system that he didn't condemn, and that was communism.
| 655 |
(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Sat, Sep 24, 2011 4:01:05pm |
re: #653 Obdicut
Which, I'd point out, does not make saying that Marx would condemn it 'not technically true'. There is no actual technical sense in which that could be true or not.
Yeah, maybe a better way of classifying that initial statement about Marx condemning progressive taxation would be nonsensical.
And that brief objection does not in the least bit explain your point well enough.
That brief objection was not all that was written on that itt.
And why are you objecting to the word being translated as 'heavy', anyway?
I didn't.
I don't mind at all pointing out the flaw; it's perfectly true that Marx saw capitalism as stage to be worked through, just as he did feudalism.
You certainly seemed to mind quite a bit ever since I did point it out.
However, that doesn't mean the didn't also condemn capitalism. He did. He also condemned feudalism. There is only one political and economic system that he didn't condemn, and that was communism.
Yes, we are in agreement (except, perhaps, about communism being an economical system). Communism, however, was a theoretical aim yet to achieve (AFAIK he always objected it being called an "ideal"), and among the practical measures pursuant to it he identified progressive taxation. And we agree that that does not make progressive taxation uniquely or essentially marxist.
| 656 |
Obdicut Sat, Sep 24, 2011 4:09:49pm |
re: #655 000G
You certainly seemed to mind quite a bit ever since I did point it out.
No, I really don't. I mind that you made the objection but left it flaccid. It was just an objection, with small utility. If you'd actually covered the dialectic bit and pointed out that I was giving the view from end-stage Marxism, that would have been a useful correction. Instead, you presented some idea of what I said being not 'technically true' (a very unfortunate choice of words) because there were certain specific times when Marx would approve of a certain type of progressive taxation.
Not useful. That's like saying the Society of Friends don't condemn violence even though there are specific moments they think violence is a defensible option.
and among the practical measures pursuant to it he identified progressive taxation.
So yes, progressive taxation-- specifically, strong or heavy progressive taxation-- was something he identified as a useful step on the way to communism. So was capitalism itself. Does that mean that Marx didn't condemn capitalism? He rather clearly did, even as he saw it as a necessary stage. That's the nifty part about a dialectic.
| 657 |
Obdicut Sat, Sep 24, 2011 4:12:56pm |
re: #655 000G
Or, to put it another way, here's your objection in a slightly more meaningful form:
While Marx did condemn all aspects of the capitalist system, he saw heavy progressive taxation as being part of the means by which the proletariat could amass control and move towards a communist society. So whether or not Marx would have condemned a specific progressive taxation would have depended on the historical situation at the time.
Not as snappy, of course.
| 658 |
(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Sat, Sep 24, 2011 4:17:47pm |
re: #656 Obdicut
No, I really don't. I mind that you made the objection but left it flaccid.
But I didn't.
No, this is wrong, or you just don't know what pursuant means. Pursuant is something that proceeds from something, not precedes it.
Definition of PURSUANT TO
: in carrying out : in conformity with : according to
I think it works.
| 659 |
(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Sat, Sep 24, 2011 4:19:11pm |
re: #657 Obdicut
While Marx did condemn all aspects of the capitalist system, he saw heavy progressive taxation as being part of the means by which the proletariat could amass control and move towards a communist society. So whether or not Marx would have condemned a specific progressive taxation would have depended on the historical situation at the time.
Glad to have been of service so that your initial statement found this corrected form.
| 660 |
Obdicut Sat, Sep 24, 2011 4:19:21pm |
re: #658 000G
But I didn't.
Yes, you expanded on it later, after I challenged you. Great. So we go off on a long discourse. Wonderful.
Next time, make your initial objection an actually good one, and we won't have to waste the time.
| 661 |
Obdicut Sat, Sep 24, 2011 4:20:03pm |
re: #659 000G
Glad to have been of service so that your initial statement found this corrected form.
Way to miss the point.
| 662 |
(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Sat, Sep 24, 2011 4:21:37pm |
re: #660 Obdicut
Yes, you expanded on it later, after I challenged you. Great. So we go off on a long discourse. Wonderful.
Next time, make your initial objection an actually good one, and we won't have to waste the time.
It was a good one initially. I am sorry that you felt the need to challenge it. Well, at least we agree it was developed discursively.
We really did not have to waste time, you know.
| 663 |
Obdicut Sat, Sep 24, 2011 4:22:18pm |
re: #662 000G
Spend just a little time turning those critical faculties inward, and you'll be a much cooler person.
| 664 |
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