Wingnut Outrage of the Week: The EPA’s “$21B Expansion”

Daily Caller gets it wrong, claims to get it right
Wingnuts • Views: 24,209

The right wing Assembly Line of Outrageous Outrages just keeps churning out bogus stories. It takes a lot of man hours to keep the Republican base as crazed and out of touch with reality as possible, but the wingnut media and blogosphere are always on the job.

The latest chorus of loony paranoia was launched by The Daily Caller, in a highly misleading article that claimed the EPA was about to expand their personnel to 230,000, at a cost of $21 billion: EPA: Regulations would require 230,000 new employees, $21 billion.

This outrage spread almost instantly throughout the right wing echo chamber, because it hits two of their biggest buttons: the anti-government button and the anti-science button. That monstrous government bureaucracy wants to get even bigger and more expensive, and it’s all about that climate change hoax!

Primitive propaganda, sure, but undeniably effective with the target audience. And of course, The Daily Caller’s article is ridiculously out of context and distorted.

“Much of what is said or written about EPA these days is entirely inaccurate — but The Daily Caller’s report is comically wrong,” EPA spokesman Brendan Gilfillan told POLITICO. “At least one job clearly needs to be created: They’re clearly in the market for a fact-checker.” …

Here’s the simple version:

The EPA, using two recent Supreme Court decisions, wants to regulate greenhouse gas emissions under the Clean Air Act. But if it were to do so now, the effects on, well, everyone, would be dramatic.

So the agency has proposed the so-called tailoring rule, which would limit permitting requirements to the biggest industrial emitters. However, industry groups are challenging the tailoring rule in court, saying the EPA doesn’t have the Clean Air Act authority it says it has, while some greens say the EPA proposal is too permissive.

That brings us to earlier this month in the U.S. Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia Circuit, where the Justice Department filed an extensive brief outlining some of the potential costs if the tailoring rule were blocked. Among them, DOJ said, the $21 billion and 230,000 employees could be needed to help regulate more than 6 million sources.

“Hiring the 230,000 full-time employees necessary to produce the 1.4 billion work hours required to address the actual increase in permitting functions would result in an increase in the Title V administration costs of $21 billion per year,” DOJ wrote.

DOJ adds that the tailoring rule is designed specifically to avoid that kind of scenario.

The Daily Caller’s take is so disconnected from reality that it’s not even wrong; it’s deliberately deceptive. The truth is exactly the opposite of the way they portrayed it. And as usual with right wing media, they’re refusing to back down even after being conclusively debunked.

Daily Caller Executive Editor David Martosko said the publication stands by its story.

“The EPA is well-known for expanding its reach, especially regarding greenhouse gas emissions. What’s ‘comically wrong’ is the idea that half of Washington won’t admit it. The EPA’s own court filing speaks volumes,” Martosko said in an email.

“What’s more likely: that the Obama administration’s EPA wants to limit its own power, or that it’s interested in dramatically increasing its reach and budget?”

In Wingnut Bizarro World, journalistic accountability works in reverse. The more deceptive and misleading your articles, the more successful you are.

Also see

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160 comments

1 HappyWarrior  Wed, Sep 28, 2011 12:57:37pm

Damned EPA trying to give us clean air and water. Who does those jerks think they are! Oh and Richard Milhous Nixon weeps some more.

2 dragonfire1981  Wed, Sep 28, 2011 12:58:35pm

You just can't reason with these people. It's impossible.

3 allegro  Wed, Sep 28, 2011 12:58:39pm

“What’s more likely: that the Obama administration’s EPA GOP wants to limit its own power, or that it’s interested in dramatically increasing its reach and budget?”

That. Projection at its finest once again.

4 uncah91  Wed, Sep 28, 2011 12:59:27pm

Can a government agency actually sue for libel?

5 Renaissance_Man  Wed, Sep 28, 2011 1:00:43pm

I like that the defence to posting a false story is 'It's actually true, because you know what those types are like!'

6 Varek Raith  Wed, Sep 28, 2011 1:01:14pm

Fake but accurate!
/

7 Killgore Trout  Wed, Sep 28, 2011 1:02:43pm

The bogus stories are just so absurd that you can usually spot them from the headline. Everybody's so used to them now that almost nobody bothers debunking them anymore. It's time consuming and pointless.

8 lawhawk  Wed, Sep 28, 2011 1:07:55pm

The DOJ, in defending the tailoring rule - carries out a cost benefit analysis - finding that if this rule is blocked, it would cost $21 billion, and all of a sudden it's flipped around to claim that this is what the EPA wants?

Absurd doesn't even begin to cover this nonsense.

9 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Wed, Sep 28, 2011 1:09:31pm

President Obama’s Rosh Hashanah Message

10 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Wed, Sep 28, 2011 1:13:50pm

re: #7 Killgore Trout

The bogus stories are just so absurd that you can usually spot them from the headline. Everybody's so used to them now that almost nobody bothers debunking them anymore. It's time consuming and pointless.

And once they are debunked, the wingnut horde usually has moved on to the next outrageous outrage already. Later, they refer to the bogus story as gospel. Can't count how many times I've come across people who still refer to "Climate-gate" as something that supposedly exposed the great global warming science conspiracy instead of it being just a hacking scandal.

11 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Wed, Sep 28, 2011 1:14:52pm

re: #9 000G

President Obama’s Rosh Hashanah Message

[Video]

503 likes, 384 dislikes

:-|

12 Gus  Wed, Sep 28, 2011 1:16:03pm

Let's see. 21 billion dollars divide by 230,000 "full time employees" is $91,304 per employee. Mathematically, or economically it immediately sounds impossible. You'd never be able to hire so many people with the level of expertise required for about 91K per hire.

I see the knuckleheads at Hot Air have their hands in this too as well.

Derp.

13 Varek Raith  Wed, Sep 28, 2011 1:16:08pm

re: #11 000G

:-|

Yeah, it's youtube.
Full of idiotic morons.

14 lawhawk  Wed, Sep 28, 2011 1:24:34pm

re: #12 Gus 802

Well, to be fair that would be an average salary. There are obviously going to be managers and senior managers who make substantially above 91k, while there are those who make substantially less.

Still, they're trying to claim the exact opposite of what the EPA wants. They are claiming that the EPA wants to have this kind of hiring, but that would happen only if the tailoring rule isn't upheld and implemented.

15 Gus  Wed, Sep 28, 2011 1:24:55pm

Not only that, but the liars at Hot Air -- Tina Korbe -- are continuing to promote the Obama/CFC fabrication that I paged the other day:

This is only tangentially related, but I’m still so annoyed by it that I have to squeeze it into some post somewhere. In case you missed it, the Obama administration banned over-the-counter asthma inhalers because of environmental concerns. Like regulations that require hundreds of thousands of bureaucrats to administer (or, more popularly, the light bulb ban), this inhaler ban is yet another example of a type of environmentalism that becomes so pervasive as to be lifestyle control — i.e. it’s yet another example of environmentalism run amok.

The right wing noise machine never corrects itself and seem to lack an ability for either a) reading comprehension; b) ethics; c) logic; etc.

Yo! Wingnuts! The CFC inhaler ban was finalized under the careful watch of George W. Bush. The beginning of all this was by the Saint Reagan and Saint Thatcher approved Montreal Protocol which laid the groundwork for banning ozone depleting chemicals. Wake up. Get your head out of your ass.

16 elizajane  Wed, Sep 28, 2011 1:30:44pm

re: #8 lawhawk

The DOJ, in defending the tailoring rule - carries out a cost benefit analysis - finding that if this rule is blocked, it would cost $21 billion, and all of a sudden it's flipped around to claim that this is what the EPA wants?

Absurd doesn't even begin to cover this nonsense.

Exactly. The outrage is about something that is EXACTLY THE OPPOSITE of what is really happening.

Moreover, the EPA now has only 17,000 employees. You would think that, faced with a claim that this agency was going to expand more than tenfold just to enforce a single regulation, even somebody on the Right would pause and say, "Wait! Surely that cannot be right."

But even such basic logical skills are beyond them. Or possibly they believe that the EPA employs millions of librul drones already.

17 Batman  Wed, Sep 28, 2011 1:32:57pm

Journalism works by assuming whatever is likelier between any two things must be true. Like what is liklier, that Daily Caller Executive Editor David Martosko is a complete idiot, or that he is a space martian from Mars? This just in, Daily Caller Executive Editor David Martosko is a complete idiot.

18 Gus  Wed, Sep 28, 2011 1:33:04pm

re: #14 lawhawk

Well, to be fair that would be an average salary. There are obviously going to be managers and senior managers who make substantially above 91k, while there are those who make substantially less.

Still, they're trying to claim the exact opposite of what the EPA wants. They are claiming that the EPA wants to have this kind of hiring, but that would happen only if the tailoring rule isn't upheld and implemented.

91K would only cover someone making about 45K per year once you include benefits and so on. Then you have to have facilities, equipment, office space, etc. 91K per employee for 250,000 employees is impossible. Right now the EPA budget is about 8.7 billion a year with 17,000 employees. That's a little over $500,000 per employee. 91K per employee is impossible and an obvious and immediate sign that this story was complete BS.

19 Schadenfreude 'r' Us  Wed, Sep 28, 2011 1:39:31pm

re: #13 Varek Raith

As a real pure Amurican, I protest the glorification of foreign holidays in our Christian country!

20 Gus  Wed, Sep 28, 2011 1:41:21pm

And from the Politico story:

Daily Caller Executive Editor David Martosko said the publication stands by its story.

Let's go to Source Watch:

David Martosko is a spokesperson various front groups, most notably the Center for Consumer Freedom (CCF). He has served as director of research for Berman & Company and its front group the CCF since 2001. Mr. Martosko is a frequent spokesperson and editorial writer for both organizations. He previously served as a senior research analyst for the Berman front group Guest Choice Network (GCN), which was later renamed CCF. Frequently cited as a scientific and economic expert, Mr. Martosko received his graduate degree in opera from the Peabody Conservatory of Music at Johns Hopkins University in 1995.

CCF is an industry-funded organization and front group for the restaurant, alcohol, tobacco and other industries. It is registered as a tax-exempt, non-profit organization under the IRS code 501(c)(3). Over 40% of the group's 2005 expenditure was paid to Rick Berman's public relations company, Berman & Co. for "management services".

[...]

Drunk driving

CCF runs ad campaigns against lowering the legal blood alcohol limits. According to David Martosko:

"Government statistics and independent science confirms very clearly that the drunk driving problem in this country has been reduced to a small hard core of repeat offenders."

In fact, government statistics show that the majority of arrests are first-timers.

Violations, arrests & alcohol related arrests

David Martosko has a lengthy list of violations and arrests in Fairfax County, Virginia. Several of his arrests are alcohol-related, which calls into question CCF's claims that stricter blood alcohol limits and sobriety checkpoints are unnecessary. [10] CCF, which is funded in part by the alcoholic beverage industry, has made a point of attacking the advocacy group Mothers Against Drunk Driving (MADD). According to CCF, MADD persecutes social drinkers by "expanding the parameters of the 'drinking and driving problem' " to include social drinkers, rather than focusing on hard core drinkers. However, law enforcement documents have confirmed that Mr. Martosko was arrested in September of 2008 for driving while intoxicated and refused to take a breathalyzer test. After pleading guilty, he had his driver's license suspended for 12 months. Other documents reveal charges for public intoxication, swearing and trespassing. He has been found guilty of reckless endangerment, reckless driving, speeding and repeated moving violations.

One of the sites which includes legal documents pertaining to Mr. Martosko is 'AboutDavidMartoskco.com'. This site also includes an anonymous Wikileaks style "drop box", for information pertaining to David Martosko and CCF director Rick Berman, also known as Dr. Evil.

21 Varek Raith  Wed, Sep 28, 2011 1:44:00pm

re: #20 Gus 802

And from the Politico story:

Let's go to Source Watch:

Damn!

22 Gus  Wed, Sep 28, 2011 1:46:13pm

There's a pattern of alcoholism with wingnuts. It's almost like the proverbial stereotype of the hillbilly with his bottle of moonshine. It's inbred. It's in the genes.re: #21 Varek Raith

Damn!

Yet another graduate from the University of Jack Daniels.

I see a pattern here.

23 Nemesis6  Wed, Sep 28, 2011 1:48:11pm

What I don't understand is why someone would would have it in for an agency like the EPA -- They're tasked with protecting the environment. Why is that something that needs to be fought, let alone cut down financially?

24 Obdicut  Wed, Sep 28, 2011 1:50:29pm

re: #23 Nemesis6

It comes from insane glibertarians who don't believe that there's anything that's shared in common. If someone were to burn a pile of poisonous crap right next to them, they'd be up in arms, but somehow they convince themselves that the same parts per million arriving from a hundred miles away is a-ok.

25 KingKenrod  Wed, Sep 28, 2011 1:52:46pm
But the agency is still asking for taxpayers to shoulder the burden of up to 230,000 new bureaucrats — at a cost of $21 billion — to attempt to implement the rules.

Read more: [Link: dailycaller.com...]

How can daily caller stand by that? It's a completely false statement in the very first paragraph of the article.

26 Renaissance_Man  Wed, Sep 28, 2011 1:53:11pm

re: #16 elizajane

Exactly. The outrage is about something that is EXACTLY THE OPPOSITE of what is really happening.

Moreover, the EPA now has only 17,000 employees. You would think that, faced with a claim that this agency was going to expand more than tenfold just to enforce a single regulation, even somebody on the Right would pause and say, "Wait! Surely that cannot be right."

But even such basic logical skills are beyond them. Or possibly they believe that the EPA employs millions of librul drones already.

I think it's hard to understand just how the Conservative cult mind works, for someone who is not part of the cult.

Try to imagine - millions of your fellow Americans, your relatives, your neighbours, live in a world where oppressive, inhuman forces of pure evil are actively trying to steal their money, imprison them, oppress them, even kill them, every single day. These inhuman forces are monolithic - they're all conspiring together, working together to bring about their personal doom. It doesn't matter how normal and banal their everyday lives are - that's just evidence of how powerful the bad guys are, that they weave together this veneer of normalcy, while all the time plotting to kill, steal, and oppress.

Imagine the Matrix was real, and only you and your fellow FOX viewers knew the truth. Imagine what that does to a psyche.

That's what your fellow Americans believe. I do not exaggerate. That is what it means to think like a modern American Conservative.

I cannot bring myself to be angry at them. I can only pity them. And fear for what it means for this nation.

27 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Wed, Sep 28, 2011 1:53:49pm

re: #24 Obdicut

Indicator that the non-aggression principle is essentially flawed, isn't it?

28 Shiplord Kirel  Wed, Sep 28, 2011 2:00:06pm

re: #22 Gus 802

There's a pattern of alcoholism with wingnuts. It's almost like the proverbial stereotype of the hillbilly with his bottle of moonshine. It's inbred. It's in the genes.

Yet another graduate from the University of Jack Daniels.

I see a pattern here.

QFT! It's the elephant in the living room of the political right, and of corrupt local conservatives as well. Anyone who knows a significant number of tea partiers and other far right types will realize that tea is not their favorite drink.

29 Henchman 25  Wed, Sep 28, 2011 2:01:14pm

re: #28 Shiplord Kirel

Beer Partiers!

30 Varek Raith  Wed, Sep 28, 2011 2:01:29pm

Good gravy, I did not know this...
:/
A Manufactured ‘Crisis’: Congress Can Let The Post Office Save Itself Without Mass Layoffs Or Service Reductions

At the very end of that year, Congress passed the Postal Accountability and Enhancement Act of 2006 (PAEA). Under PAEA, USPS was forced to “prefund its future health care benefit payments to retirees for the next 75 years in an astonishing ten-year time span” — meaning that it had to put aside billions of dollars to pay for the health benefits of employees it hasn’t even hired yet, something “that no other government or private corporation is required to do.”

As consumer advocate Ralph Nader noted, if PAEA was never enacted, USPS would actually be facing a $1.5 billion surplus today:

31 Bubblehead II  Wed, Sep 28, 2011 2:03:03pm

re: #23 Nemesis6

What I don't understand is why someone would would have it in for an agency like the EPA -- They're tasked with protecting the environment. Why is that something that needs to be fought, let alone cut down financially?

Because they (EPA) have imposed regulations that while cleaning up the Environment have raised the cost of doing business and cut into the profit margin.

32 Varek Raith  Wed, Sep 28, 2011 2:03:51pm

re: #31 Bubblehead II

Because they (EPA) have imposed regulations that while cleaning up the Environment have raised the cost of doing business and cut into the profit margin.

No brainer of a choice there.
;)

33 Gus  Wed, Sep 28, 2011 2:09:25pm

re: #31 Bubblehead II

Because they (EPA) have imposed regulations that while cleaning up the Environment have raised the cost of doing business and cut into the profit margin.

I miss the good old days when rivers caught fire and Pittsburgh was a black as night in the middle of the afternoon.

//

34 Bubblehead II  Wed, Sep 28, 2011 2:11:06pm

re: #32 Varek Raith

Lets see. Decrease cost of business, increase profits vs providing the employees surfs a healthy and safe work environment?

PROFIT!

35 Varek Raith  Wed, Sep 28, 2011 2:11:21pm

re: #33 Gus 802

I miss the good old days when rivers caught fire and Pittsburgh was a black as night in the middle of the afternoon.

//

I love the smell of tire fires in the morning.

36 Achilles Tang  Wed, Sep 28, 2011 2:15:11pm

re: #20 Gus 802

. Frequently cited as a scientific and economic expert, Mr. Martosko received his graduate degree in opera from the Peabody Conservatory of Music at Johns Hopkins University in 1995.

Whoa!

37 Bubblehead II  Wed, Sep 28, 2011 2:16:18pm

re: #33 Gus 802

I miss the good old days when rivers caught fire and Pittsburgh was a black as night in the middle of the afternoon.

//

I miss the days you could watch the Snake River go from brown to red from the algae bloom because of the run off from the fields. Not to mention the fish kills that accompanied it.

//

38 jaunte  Wed, Sep 28, 2011 2:16:33pm

re: #20 Gus 802

Our story about the EPA was spot-on and accurate. It’s true that the agency’s court filing outlined a “tailoring rule” as a more gradual approach to hiring 230,000 people at a cost of $21 billion. But the EPA was clear that “the Tailoring Rule is calculated to move toward eventual full compliance with the statutory threshold” -- meaning it’s not a question of if the EPA wants to triple its budget, but when.

I wonder if Martosko has extrapolated from this story and his own experience at drunk driving to determine how many state police, roadblocks and total expenditure it will take to have full compliance with that 'statutory threshold'.

39 Shiplord Kirel  Wed, Sep 28, 2011 2:16:58pm

Not quite extinct:

Prohibition Party

Despite solid socon and fundy credentials, this group has hit on very hard times in recent years, recording just 676 votes in the 2008 presidential election. I wonder why?
Being sober and punctual and all, they have already nominated their 2012 candidate, one Jack Fellure. He had run for POTUS as a Republican in every election since 1988, with an obvious lack of success, but has now switched to the Prohibitionists. His platform is based entirely on the King James Bible.

He received 36 votes in the (1992) New Hampshire primary and complained that President George H.W. Bush and commentator Pat Buchanan were receiving all the media attention.

An obvious injustice, to be sure.

40 Varek Raith  Wed, Sep 28, 2011 2:18:01pm

re: #39 Shiplord Kirel

Not quite extinct:

Prohibition Party

Despite solid socon and fundy credentials, this group has hit on very hard times in recent years, recording just 676 votes in the 2008 presidential election. I wonder why?
Being sober and punctual and all, they have already nominated their 2012 candidate, one Jack Fellure. He had run for POTUS as a Republican in every election since 1988, with an obvious lack of success, but has now switched to the Prohibitionists. His platform is based entirely on the King James Bible.

An obvious injustice, to be sure.

It's clearly his last name.
Too close to 'failure'.
XD

41 dragonath  Wed, Sep 28, 2011 2:20:26pm

Hey, it's the Daily Caller. They've been crapping up Yahoo News with lots of one sided stories like this:

EPA Stimulating Enviromental Regulations Abroad

EPA Regulation Forces Closure of Texas Energy Facilities

EPA Rules Devastate Coal Industry

42 Shiplord Kirel  Wed, Sep 28, 2011 2:21:59pm

re: #33 Gus 802

I miss the good old days when rivers caught fire and Pittsburgh was a black as night in the middle of the afternoon.

//

There used to be a carbon black plant between Brownfield and Seminole southeast of Lubbock. This burned natural gas in a limited air supply to produce pure soot. A lot of the product escaped with the exhaust and the solid black plume over the plant was visible 60 miles away. The plant is gone but the former site is visible from the air as a mile wide black smudge on the otherwise brown and green scrub plain.

43 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Wed, Sep 28, 2011 2:29:52pm

Feeling weirded out at the moment. Just found this post-mortem tribute to a man with whom I sparred years ago (he croaked in 2008):

[Link: www.youtube.com...]

He was a secondary player on the Holocaust denial field, mostly working behind the scenes (as a translator as well as a CODOH forum member who went by the nickname "Sailor"). All this time, of course, for me he was but letters on the screen.

44 Achilles Tang  Wed, Sep 28, 2011 2:30:24pm

I will however mention one EPA ruling that came in effect only a year or two ago. All renovation contractors working on pre 70's homes need to wear the equivalent of hazmat coverings and take other steps to guard against possible lead contamination from paint; and they need to take a course, at their expense of several thousand dollars, and renew periodically, and there are possible fines up the wazzoo for violators.

Utterly ridiculous. Lead paint is only dangerous to infants who eat it, in unrenovated homes. I doubt they could document a single case of lead poisoning in a renovator, or home owner after or during a completed renovation.

Just what we need in a housing depression.//

45 Renaissance_Man  Wed, Sep 28, 2011 2:42:34pm

re: #44 Naso Tang

I will however mention one EPA ruling that came in effect only a year or two ago. All renovation contractors working on pre 70's homes need to wear the equivalent of hazmat coverings and take other steps to guard against possible lead contamination from paint; and they need to take a course, at their expense of several thousand dollars, and renew periodically, and there are possible fines up the wazzoo for violators.

Utterly ridiculous. Lead paint is only dangerous to infants who eat it, in unrenovated homes. I doubt they could document a single case of lead poisoning in a renovator, or home owner after or during a completed renovation.

Just what we need in a housing depression.//

A case report of lead paint poisoning of homeowners after a renovation

Family Lead Poisoning after Occupational Exposure

Elevated blood lead levels in children of construction workers

46 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Wed, Sep 28, 2011 2:57:29pm

re: #45 Renaissance_Man

How can you get elevated blood lead levels from your father?

47 Schadenfreude 'r' Us  Wed, Sep 28, 2011 3:01:56pm

re: #46 EmmmieG

How can you get elevated blood lead levels from your father?

Probably hugging him while inhaling the miniscule particles he brought home attached to his clothes (skin, beard....).

48 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Wed, Sep 28, 2011 3:03:20pm

re: #47 C1nnabar

Probably hugging him while inhaling the miniscule particles he brought home attached to his clothes (skin, beard...).

That is a good thought. I also thought of Dad fixing food without washing his hands. (Really, dude, wash your hands.)

There has to be some way to fix the problem without costing Dad thousands of dollars, though.

49 Schadenfreude 'r' Us  Wed, Sep 28, 2011 3:17:50pm

re: #48 EmmmieG

It shouldn't cost thousands of dollars to tell dad to shower and change out of his work clothes after handling hazardous substances and before hugging his kids.

(Can you get lead contamination through your skin? Just wondering....)

50 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Wed, Sep 28, 2011 3:21:35pm

re: #49 C1nnabar

It shouldn't cost thousands of dollars to tell dad to shower and change out of his work clothes after handling hazardous substances and before hugging his kids.

(Can you get lead contamination through your skin? Just wondering...)

I think Loretta Lynn's father showered every day before he came inside.

51 wrenchwench  Wed, Sep 28, 2011 3:21:47pm

re: #49 C1nnabar

It shouldn't cost thousands of dollars to tell dad to shower and change out of his work clothes after handling hazardous substances and before hugging his kids.

(Can you get lead contamination through your skin? Just wondering...)

Maybe Dad should be working in Tyvek coveralls and a respirator that don't go home with him. His boss should be paying whatever it costs to teach him to have his or her employees use proper procedures.

52 Achilles Tang  Wed, Sep 28, 2011 3:27:00pm

re: #45 Renaissance_Man

A case report of lead paint poisoning of homeowners after a renovation

Family Lead Poisoning after Occupational Exposure

Elevated blood lead levels in children of construction workers

I read that. The first described a dog licking paint chips during renovation and a family spending time in the home during renovation. The others talk of children of renovators having elevated levels and the last is less specific.

There are many types of renovation work, and I've done plenty.

Very little involves detailed scraping or sanding, most involves ripping out and dumping. Granted people should be educated in the basics depending on what type of work is being done, but we could also say that workmen have to take courses in how to protect against fumes from paint strippers, or spray painting (even if not with lead based paint), not to mention being killed by the fires from torches or combustion of rags with paint thinner and so on in any number of ways.

This ruling places a major financial burden on a major economic sector for what amounts to protecting a very few people who lack common sense.

Why not say that we should ban cars? They kill a lot more people.

53 zora  Wed, Sep 28, 2011 3:29:24pm

Muslim denied spot with Florida county's Republican Party

Read more: [Link: www.mcclatchydc.com...]

Republicans, who changed their rules to publicly vet Nezar Hamze and then vote on his application by secret ballot, said they didn't oppose him because he was a Muslim - but because he is associated with the Center for American-Islamic Relations, whose Washington-area affiliate was an unindicted co-conspirator in a federal terrorism indictment...

At times, when he addressed the packed room at the Sheraton Suites in Fort Lauderdale, a few members shouted out among the crowd of about 300.
"Terrorist!" said one man.
"Let him speak!" said another.

...A new litmus test was then born: Do you support Rep. Allen West? The tea party Republican has repeatedly denounced Islam and clashed with Hamze. So has Joe Kaufman, chairman of the group Citizens Against Hate and the vice-chairman of the Republican Jewish Coalition of South Florida.

"Are you willing to support Congressman Allen West ... as a Republican?" Kaufman said loudly in the microphone. "Will you denounce terrorism? And your organization has been named a terrorist organization."

WTF!

54 Achilles Tang  Wed, Sep 28, 2011 3:30:43pm

re: #51 wrenchwench

Maybe Dad should be working in Tyvek coveralls and a respirator that don't go home with him. His boss should be paying whatever it costs to teach him to have his or her employees use proper procedures.

His boss does pay, and charges it to the homeowner, and for a small renovator, that means not getting the business. Out of work.

People have been doing this type of work since lead paint was banned. Something like 40 years now, and all of a sudden a "problem" is noticed.//

55 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Wed, Sep 28, 2011 3:31:26pm

re: #53 zora

Discussed yesterday. He's a CAIR member so they have a prima facie reason other than Islam.

56 Bubblehead II  Wed, Sep 28, 2011 3:33:22pm

re: #53 zora

Old news. Has ties to CAIR.

57 Achilles Tang  Wed, Sep 28, 2011 3:34:10pm

re: #49 C1nnabar

(Can you get lead contamination through your skin? Just wondering...)

Lead paint is not soluble. You would have to grind it to the finest dust possible first, in which case you would be breathing it anyway.

58 wrenchwench  Wed, Sep 28, 2011 3:34:57pm

re: #54 Naso Tang

His boss does pay, and charges it to the homeowner, and for a small renovator, that means not getting the business. Out of work.

People have been doing this type of work since lead paint was banned. Something like 40 years now, and all of a sudden a "problem" is noticed.//

Maybe it's more like "all of a sudden somebody decided it's worth protecting people by force of law, because the other way wasn't working". I don't know, because you didn't provide a link with your assertion.

59 zora  Wed, Sep 28, 2011 3:41:47pm

re: #55 Sergey Romanov

even if he is a member of cair, the rules changed so that he can be publicly questioned and humiliated. does being a member of cair also make someone a terrorist? how is he more threatening than the tea partiers?

anybody know what thread it was on, i'd like to catch up.

60 Achilles Tang  Wed, Sep 28, 2011 3:43:19pm

re: #58 wrenchwench

Maybe it's more like "all of a sudden somebody decided it's worth protecting people by force of law, because the other way wasn't working". I don't know, because you didn't provide a link with your assertion.

I first saw it in the local newspaper. There has been no detailed justification that I have seen on how many alleged victims etc.

Here's where I go conservative. Life is not free of all risk and I have been involved in this type of work for 20 years. I am well aware of lead paint dangers for anyone who eats it but the circumstances where it becomes a breathing hazard are few and far between, and any fool would protect himself when creating large amounts of dust, whether lead based or not. Mold is a greater danger and homeowners who don't require proper cleanup or live in the middle of renovation dust of any kind have only themselves and their stupidity to blame.

The EPA can publish a pamphlet and make sure every renovator and every city codes department hands them out when permits are pulled. That's all that would be needed.

61 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Wed, Sep 28, 2011 3:44:58pm

re: #59 zora

No, but that's how wingnuts see CAIR (and I don't say it's a good org; but they exaggerate about it even more). This story is hard to spin into one about anti-Muslimism because of the CAIR thing. Plausible deniability.

62 bratwurst  Wed, Sep 28, 2011 3:46:36pm

Get ready to roll your eyes: Ron Paul Bests Obama in Latest Poll.

63 albusteve  Wed, Sep 28, 2011 3:48:19pm

re: #62 bratwurst

Get ready to roll your eyes: Ron Paul Bests Obama in Latest Poll.

no a big surprise to me...I have been highly skeptical of this next election..BO is on the ropes, or damned close to it...but then I'm deranged, so they say

64 wrenchwench  Wed, Sep 28, 2011 3:49:27pm

re: #60 Naso Tang

I wasn't lacking 'justification on alleged victims'. I am lacking something to verify this claim:

they need to take a course, at their expense of several thousand dollars, and renew periodically, and there are possible fines up the wazzoo for violators

"I read it in a newspaper" isn't that.

65 bratwurst  Wed, Sep 28, 2011 3:49:44pm

re: #63 albusteve

I have been highly skeptical of this next election

You HAVE? You certainly never mention it.

/////////////////

66 zora  Wed, Sep 28, 2011 3:49:45pm

re: #62 bratwurst

ron paul, the president of polls.

67 Bubblehead II  Wed, Sep 28, 2011 3:51:48pm

re: #66 zora

ron paul, the president of spammed polls.

FTFY

68 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Sep 28, 2011 3:52:16pm

re: #62 bratwurst

Get ready to roll your eyes: Ron Paul Bests Obama in Latest Poll.

aww, ron paul you so cute

he's like a playskool candidate

69 albusteve  Wed, Sep 28, 2011 3:53:45pm

re: #65 bratwurst

You HAVE? You certainly never mention it.

///

everybody assumed the TP would blow up...it hasn't, not only that but they might steal the election....frankly I don't like the prospect of that outcome...like I've said many times, I'm not a party guy and try to be as non partisan as I can....so this notion is hardly jaded...I feel that blind loyalty is for dad's, wives, and the Cowboys, not political parties

70 Decatur Deb  Wed, Sep 28, 2011 3:55:11pm

re: #62 bratwurst

Get ready to roll your eyes: Ron Paul Bests Obama in Latest Poll.

Oh Lawd, please, please, please make him the nominee.

71 Decatur Deb  Wed, Sep 28, 2011 3:57:35pm

re: #69 albusteve

everybody assumed the TP would blow up...it hasn't, not only that but they might steal the election...frankly I don't like the prospect of that outcome...like I've said many times, I'm not a party guy and try to be as non partisan as I can...so this notion is hardly jaded...I feel that blind loyalty is for dad's, wives, and the Cowboys, not political parties

TP doesn't steal elections--they board them silently in the night, in costume, and dump them into the harbor.

72 Achilles Tang  Wed, Sep 28, 2011 3:58:21pm

re: #64 wrenchwench

I wasn't lacking 'justification on alleged victims'. I am lacking something to verify this claim:

"I read it in a newspaper" isn't that.

I apologize, but I haven't searched for the links. It was originally in the St. Petersburg Times if you want to do so, and I have heard it discussed, but as I am not a contractor myself I haven't been directly affected and tend to do my own work for myself, at my own risk.

If anyone can say it was suspended since a couple of years ago, I will only be pleased.

73 albusteve  Wed, Sep 28, 2011 3:59:31pm

I'm reading Grisham's 'The Innocent Man'...what a profound story...if you are on the fence regarding capitol punishment, read this chilling, true account about what happened to Ron Williamson in OK

74 Lidane  Wed, Sep 28, 2011 4:02:34pm

re: #33 Gus 802

I miss the good old days when rivers caught fire and Pittsburgh was a black as night in the middle of the afternoon.

//

Come to Texas. Given the filthy air in Houston and the wildfires across the state, I'm sure we can find a place around here that would give you the nostalgia you want.

///

75 wrenchwench  Wed, Sep 28, 2011 4:02:59pm

re: #72 Naso Tang

I apologize, but I haven't searched for the links. It was originally in the St. Petersburg Times if you want to do so, and I have heard it discussed, but as I am not a contractor myself I haven't been directly affected and tend to do my own work for myself, at my own risk.

If anyone can say it was suspended since a couple of years ago, I will only be pleased.

I don't have time to read the non-existent links anyway. My pushback is motivated by what looks like callous indifference on your part to things like this:

Abstract
OBJECTIVES:

This study examined whether children of lead-exposed construction workers had higher blood lead levels than neighborhood control children.
METHODS:

Twenty-nine construction workers were identified from the New Jersey Adult Blood Lead Epidemiology and Surveillance (ABLES) registry. Eighteen control families were referred by workers. Venous blood samples were collected from 50 children (31 exposed, 19 control subjects) under age 6.
RESULTS:

Twenty-six percent of workers children had blood lead levels at or over the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention action level of 0.48 mumol/L (10 micrograms/dL), compared with 5% of control children (unadjusted odds ratio = 6.1; 95% confidence interval = 0.9, 147.2).
CONCLUSIONS:

Children of construction workers may be at risk for excessive lead exposure. Health care providers should assess parental occupation as a possible pathway for lead exposure of young children.

That's from a link provided by Renaissance_Man.

76 wrenchwench  Wed, Sep 28, 2011 4:03:46pm

Oh, and thanks for the apology. Srsly.

77 Lidane  Wed, Sep 28, 2011 4:03:47pm

re: #62 bratwurst

Get ready to roll your eyes: Ron Paul Bests Obama in Latest Poll.

What a joke. Ron Paul couldn't even beat Herman Cain for the GOP nomination.

78 Lidane  Wed, Sep 28, 2011 4:05:00pm

re: #53 zora

Muslim denied spot with Florida county's Republican Party

Read more: [Link: www.mcclatchydc.com...]

WTF!

It's all that religious liberty and individual rights that the GOP is famous for.

79 wrenchwench  Wed, Sep 28, 2011 4:05:40pm

re: #66 zora

ron paul, the president of polls.

And author of that press release.

Authorized and paid for by Ron Paul 2012

80 albusteve  Wed, Sep 28, 2011 4:06:11pm

re: #78 Lidane

It's all that religious liberty and individual rights that the GOP is famous for.

the old crystal ball polished up?

81 Decatur Deb  Wed, Sep 28, 2011 4:06:30pm

re: #79 wrenchwench

And author of that press release.

Online poll of 2K+ adults.

82 Killgore Trout  Wed, Sep 28, 2011 4:09:16pm

Obama Jobs Plan May Prevent 2012 Recession: Economists

President Barack Obama’s $447 billion jobs plan would help avoid a return to recession by maintaining growth and pushing down the unemployment rate next year, according to economists surveyed by Bloomberg News.

The legislation, submitted to Congress this month, would increase gross domestic product by 0.6 percent next year and add or keep 275,000 workers on payrolls, the median estimates in the survey of 34 economists showed. The program would also lower the jobless rate by 0.2 percentage point in 2012, economists said.

83 Lidane  Wed, Sep 28, 2011 4:10:38pm

re: #80 albusteve

You don't need a crystal ball to see the GOP's hypocrisy. That's on full display 24/7 these days, thanks to Fox.

84 albusteve  Wed, Sep 28, 2011 4:10:48pm
85 Lidane  Wed, Sep 28, 2011 4:11:28pm

re: #82 Killgore Trout

Obama Jobs Plan May Prevent 2012 Recession: Economists

And that's why it won't pass. The GOP has a vested interest in keeping the economy in a slump for as long as possible.

86 Achilles Tang  Wed, Sep 28, 2011 4:12:48pm

re: #75 wrenchwench

I don't have time to read the non-existent links anyway. My pushback is motivated by what looks like callous indifference on your part to things like this:

Children of construction workers may be at risk for excessive lead exposure. Health care providers should assess parental occupation as a possible pathway for lead exposure of young children.

That's from a link provided by Renaissance_Man.

That is hardly conclusive. It could just as easily mean that, some, construction workers, in NJ, have poor domestic hygiene, or that they live in old neighborhoods with known lead paint hazards for children, or that they are fly by night construction workers without licensed businesses and solid education in what they do.

I am not callous and you are not nice to suggest so, but we cannot afford to regulate safety to the n'th degree. Common sense must apply sometimes and as I suggested, I think that simple safety pamphlet printing would be just as effective as onerous regulation, and cost us much less.

87 wrenchwench  Wed, Sep 28, 2011 4:22:18pm

re: #86 Naso Tang

That is hardly conclusive. It could just as easily mean that, some, construction workers, in NJ, have poor domestic hygiene, or that they live in old neighborhoods with known lead paint hazards for children, or that they are fly by night construction workers without licensed businesses and solid education in what they do.

I am not callous and you are not nice to suggest so, but we cannot afford to regulate safety to the n'th degree. Common sense must apply sometimes and as I suggested, I think that simple safety pamphlet printing would be just as effective as onerous regulation, and cost us much less.

I said "what looks like callous..." because it looks like it to me. You are providing no evidence that what is being required now is "the n'th degree". I don't expect "common sense" from the ill informed, and if a contractor has to take a class to be properly informed, I don't see that as onerous.

I don't think you would actually be callous if you were provided information that you believed which indicated children were being harmed. But you are asking me to side with the anti-regulators based on nothing.

88 palomino  Wed, Sep 28, 2011 4:24:20pm

This reminds me of that trip to Asia Obama took a few months back. Remember how it allegedly cost $2 billion. By the time the truth came out that it was just a few million, the damage had been done--the far right had been effectively propagandized that Obama always overspends to ruin "our grandchildren's future", and the story stuck, at least within the ever expanding right wing bubble.

89 Decatur Deb  Wed, Sep 28, 2011 4:27:28pm

re: #88 palomino

This reminds me of that trip to Asia Obama took a few months back. Remember how it allegedly cost $2 billion. By the time the truth came out that it was just a few million, the damage had been done--the far right had been effectively propagandized that Obama always overspends to ruin "our grandchildren's future", and the story stuck, at least within the ever expanding right wing bubble.

In Nov 2012 we'll find out if the corrosive effect of years of that BS really works. If it does, the country is screwed, to paraphrase Steve.

90 engineer cat  Wed, Sep 28, 2011 4:29:37pm

re: #62 bratwurst

Get ready to roll your eyes: Ron Paul Bests Obama in Latest Poll.

from the poll press release:

If Mitt Romney was the Republican nominee, he would win over President Obama 53% to 47%. If Ron Paul was the Republican nominee, he would beat President Obama 51% to 49%. The Republican candidate that would make this a tight race for President Obama is Rick Perry. If he was the nominee, the President would win 51% to 49%. Among the rest of the possible Republican nominees, President Obama would win with 54% against Michele Bachmann, Rick Santorum, Jon Huntsman or Herman Cain, he would win with 55% of the vote against Newt Gingrich and with 57% of the vote against Sarah Palin.

Among Republicans, over one in five (22%) say they would vote for Texas Governor Rick Perry while just under one in five (18%) would vote for former Massachusetts Governor Mitt Romney. The nearest challengers are all under 10% - Ron Paul (7%), Sarah Palin (7%), and Michele Bachmann (7%). The rest of the field falls out as Herman Cain (5%), Newt Gingrich (4%), Jon Huntsman (1%) and Rick Santorum (1%) with over one-quarter of Republicans (28%) still undecided

Gen Eric Republican is the ONLY true conservative!

91 engineer cat  Wed, Sep 28, 2011 4:32:23pm

re: #88 palomino

This reminds me of that trip to Asia Obama took a few months back. Remember how it allegedly cost $2 billion. By the time the truth came out that it was just a few million, the damage had been done--the far right had been effectively propagandized that Obama always overspends to ruin "our grandchildren's future", and the story stuck, at least within the ever expanding right wing bubble.

it always does

i challenge the dick tucks of 2011 to come up with an anti-democratic falsehood that is too stupid for the baggers to take as gospel

or as h. l. mencken famously said, "nobody ever went broke overestimating the stupidity of the american public"

92 palomino  Wed, Sep 28, 2011 4:34:02pm

re: #84 albusteve

Recovery II

There's not gonna be a roaring recovery like in every other recession since the Great Depression. Indeed, this is by far the worst recession since the Great Depression. There may be incremental improvement, but neither side has the answers to get us back to where we were 10-15 years ago. So a little improvement, as in Obama's jobs plan, should be welcome even if it doesn't "fix" all the problems, which in reality are unfixable in the foreseeable future. New normal is a dumb way to phrase things; sadly though it applies.

93 Decatur Deb  Wed, Sep 28, 2011 4:34:38pm

re: #90 engineer dog

from the poll press release:

If Mitt Romney was the Republican nominee, he would win over President Obama 53% to 47%. If Ron Paul was the Republican nominee, he would beat President Obama 51% to 49%. The Republican candidate that would make this a tight race for President Obama is Rick Perry. If he was the nominee, the President would win 51% to 49%. ...snip

Now try to imagine the mindset that places RP between Romney and Perry.

94 Achilles Tang  Wed, Sep 28, 2011 4:42:00pm

re: #87 wrenchwench

I said "what looks like callous..." because it looks like it to me. You are providing no evidence that what is being required now is "the n'th degree". I don't expect "common sense" from the ill informed, and if a contractor has to take a class to be properly informed, I don't see that as onerous.

I don't think you would actually be callous if you were provided information that you believed which indicated children were being harmed. But you are asking me to side with the anti-regulators based on nothing.

If you read what I said earlier you would see that it is onerous and it seems obvious to me that you have no understanding of what is involved in home renovation from the contractor side.

Children are harmed, still, by lead paint and there are plenty of code regulations to inspect for that danger in old buildings, but this is a very specific extension that IMHO does nothing except load another expensive layer on the economy, and put people out of work, or make them more vulnerable to unlicensed contractors.

I did a quick search, but the archive full version requires payment. All I got for free, from October 2010 were these contractor comments, which don't detail the overhead costs involved:

"The liabilities are just too huge," said [Steve Gleaton], noting the potential for lawsuits if a single rule is not followed during lead abatement. "The potential risk to me and my company, it's not worth it."

"It's driving the work to the unlicensed sector," said Jonathan Greaves, of Greaves Construction Inc. in Tampa. "It scares the bejeebers out of me."

And here is a link that details the regulations more, since you trivialize what I say:

EPA regulations

This is a potential boon to lawyers and nobody else. If somehow it hasn't been a crisis worth major regulation since 1978, why now?

95 albusteve  Wed, Sep 28, 2011 4:42:09pm

re: #92 palomino

There's not gonna be a roaring recovery like in every other recession since the Great Depression. Indeed, this is by far the worst recession since the Great Depression. There may be incremental improvement, but neither side has the answers to get us back to where we were 10-15 years ago. So a little improvement, as in Obama's jobs plan, should be welcome even if it doesn't "fix" all the problems, which in reality are unfixable in the foreseeable future. New normal is a dumb way to phrase things; sadly though it applies.

I was just riffin with KT...we've discussed the recovery a few times...I didn't expect much from the first stimulus and I don't expect much from this one...of course it will be years, the feds are involved...on one hand we have BO and Geithner and Associates, and on the other the new GOP....frankly I think we're hosed...the wasn't and won't be any recovery for a very long time

96 albusteve  Wed, Sep 28, 2011 4:44:24pm

re: #94 Naso Tang

I'll wager water kills more children by 100x than household, or any pollutants or carcinogen

97 Achilles Tang  Wed, Sep 28, 2011 4:46:24pm

re: #95 albusteve

..frankly I think we're hosed...the wasn't and won't be any recovery for a very long time

Politics aside, there will be a recovery of sorts, including the developing world which will continue to outpace us in percentage (and population) terms, then oil will reach $150+ per barrel again and everything will grind down, and we will start over from where we are today; and then again until something really breaks.

98 austin_blue  Wed, Sep 28, 2011 4:46:57pm

Lie. Defend the lie. Repeat the lie and ensure that it's spread among all your friends. Repeat.

Echo chamber. It's very effective.

99 Decatur Deb  Wed, Sep 28, 2011 4:47:04pm

re: #96 albusteve

I'll wager water kills more children by 100x than household, or any pollutants or carcinogen

Possibly, depending on some definitions. These are the people who can tell you:

[Link: www.hcra.harvard.edu...]

100 palomino  Wed, Sep 28, 2011 4:47:54pm

re: #95 albusteve

I was just riffin with KT...we've discussed the recovery a few times...I didn't expect much from the first stimulus and I don't expect much from this one...of course it will be years, the feds are involved...on one hand we have BO and Geithner and Associates, and on the other the new GOP...frankly I think we're hosed...the wasn't and won't be any recovery for a very long time

There's only so much $447 billion can do in an economy this large. We'd have to go full on New Deal to even have a chance to make much of a dent, and there's no will on either side for a bunch of new alphabet soup programs that may or may not work.

This dogshit economy has now been going on over three years, spanning two administrations. It's unlike any recession since the Big One. We might as well get used to it.

101 albusteve  Wed, Sep 28, 2011 4:48:08pm

re: #97 Naso Tang

Politics aside, there will be a recovery of sorts, including the developing world which will continue to outpace us in percentage (and population) terms, then oil will reach $150+ per barrel again and everything will grind down, and we will start over from where we are today; and then again until something really breaks.

I've said all along the whole thing rests on the cost of energy

102 palomino  Wed, Sep 28, 2011 4:51:34pm

re: #98 austin_blue

Lie. Defend the lie. Repeat the lie and ensure that it's spread among all your friends. Repeat.

Echo chamber. It's very effective.

One reason I like LGF. Some may see it as an echo chamber, but I would strongly dispute that. I don't think lies are simply repeated here with impunity. And most commenters are willing to listen to counterarguments.

103 Achilles Tang  Wed, Sep 28, 2011 4:51:42pm

re: #101 albusteve

I've said all along the whole thing rests on the cost of energy

Well, you talk more than me, so I concede you probably said it earlier.

104 wrenchwench  Wed, Sep 28, 2011 4:53:02pm

re: #94 Naso Tang

If you read what I said earlier you would see that it is onerous and it seems obvious to me that you have no understanding of what is involved in home renovation from the contractor side.

Children are harmed, still, by lead paint and there are plenty of code regulations to inspect for that danger in old buildings, but this is a very specific extension that IMHO does nothing except load another expensive layer on the economy, and put people out of work, or make them more vulnerable to unlicensed contractors.

I did a quick search, but the archive full version requires payment. All I got for free, from October 2010 were these contractor comments, which don't detail the overhead costs involved:

And here is a link that details the regulations more, since you trivialize what I say:

EPA regulations

This is a potential boon to lawyers and nobody else. If somehow it hasn't been a crisis worth major regulation since 1978, why now?

Which part do you find onerous? Why do you say this is the first regulation since 1978? Your link contradicts you. I don't care about anecdotal complaints. I expect anti-regulation people to complain about regulation.

Lawyers will not be the only beneficiaries. People who otherwise would be exposed to lead paint dust will also benefit.

105 albusteve  Wed, Sep 28, 2011 4:54:53pm

re: #100 palomino

There's only so much $447 billion can do in an economy this large. We'd have to go full on New Deal to even have a chance to make much of a dent, and there's no will on either side for a bunch of new alphabet soup programs that may or may not work.

This dogshit economy has now been going on over three years, spanning two administrations. It's unlike any recession since the Big One. We might as well get used to it.

I already have....I'm a bit worried for my kids tho...the political aspect of it is mind numbing...I have zero confidence in this admin or the next...Normandy fell to the Allies because of one man that rallied to get off Omaha beach....we may be shocked a few years from now looking back on how easy the Big Fail fell....we absolutely have to move forward and I don't think we can

106 Achilles Tang  Wed, Sep 28, 2011 4:55:00pm

re: #104 wrenchwench

I repeat.

If you read what I said earlier you would see that it is onerous and it seems obvious to me that you have no understanding of what is involved in home renovation from the contractor side.

107 albusteve  Wed, Sep 28, 2011 4:57:01pm

re: #103 Naso Tang

Well, you talk more than me, so I concede you probably said it earlier.

a dozen times or more....but when I plead to access more oil and gas to get us by, I get trashed...I see no alternative to the impending shitstorm

108 researchok  Wed, Sep 28, 2011 4:58:28pm

I agree with WW, because the month ends with an 'R'.

All months that end with a 'Y' will find me in disagreement.

All other months, WW agrees with me.

//

109 prairiefire  Wed, Sep 28, 2011 5:00:09pm

re: #107 albusteve

a dozen times or more...but when I plead to access more oil and gas to get us by, I get trashed...I see no alternative to the impending shitstorm

I think we will get quite a bit from Iraq in the future.

110 albusteve  Wed, Sep 28, 2011 5:00:54pm

GOP....
Government Opportunist Party

111 Decatur Deb  Wed, Sep 28, 2011 5:04:00pm

re: #109 prairiefire

I think we will get quite a bit from Iraq in the future.

...and children throwing flowers.

112 wrenchwench  Wed, Sep 28, 2011 5:06:07pm

re: #106 Naso Tang

I repeat.

I read what you said. You said it was onerous. Now you have provided a link, and I was supposing you could point to something in your link and tell me which part you thought was onerous. It's certainly not the part about handing out leaflets, because that's what you said should be done. Where's the part about thousands of dollars? And look at this:

EPA has the authority to authorize states, tribes and territories to administer their own RRP program that would operate in lieu of the EPA regulations. When a state, tribe or territory becomes authorized, contractors and training providers working in these areas and consumers living there should contact the appropriate state, tribal or territorial program office. Currently the following states have been authorized by EPA (note: in following these links you will be leaving the EPA web site Exit EPA Disclaimer): Alabama, Georgia, Iowa, Kansas, Massachusetts, Mississippi, North Carolina, Oregon, Rhode Island, Utah, Washington, and Wisconsin.

You could move. (That's from your link.)

113 austin_blue  Wed, Sep 28, 2011 5:06:56pm

re: #102 palomino

One reason I like LGF. Some may see it as an echo chamber, but I would strongly dispute that. I don't think lies are simply repeated here with impunity. And most commenters are willing to listen to counterarguments.

This joint? Not an echo chamber. There's a lot of nuance in the world. I prefer to pick up a problem and look at all sides of it. I don't believe every position is yes/no. I think there's a lot of people like that here.

114 albusteve  Wed, Sep 28, 2011 5:07:44pm

re: #111 Decatur Deb

...and children throwing flowers.

we've had since 1973 to wake up, and we haven't....a piss poor record to bet on....we should be exporting green tech world wide...big dogs, buy our pols have played the re-election card all this time...I hate the feds...it's gotten worse and it's not over

115 prairiefire  Wed, Sep 28, 2011 5:08:08pm

re: #111 Decatur Deb

...and children throwing flowers.

Well, we will pay for it. They have quite a bit available.

116 Killgore Trout  Wed, Sep 28, 2011 5:08:35pm

A clever gardening story....
Image: 5b2da.png

117 albusteve  Wed, Sep 28, 2011 5:09:10pm

re: #113 austin_blue

This joint? Not an echo chamber. There's a lot of nuance in the world. I prefer to pick up a problem and look at all sides of it. I don't believe every position is yes/no. I think there's a lot of people like that here.

yup

118 Decatur Deb  Wed, Sep 28, 2011 5:09:40pm

re: #115 prairiefire

Well, we will pay for it. They have quite a bit available.

We have paid for it, a thousand times over.

119 engineer cat  Wed, Sep 28, 2011 5:10:29pm

new foxnews poll puts romney back on top

Fox News Poll conducted by Anderson Robbins Research (D) and Shaw & Company Research (R). Sept. 25-27, 2011. N=363 Republican primary voters nationwide. Margin of error ± 5.

"I'm going to read a list of the announced candidates for the 2012 Republican nomination. Please tell me which one you would like to see as the Republican presidential nominee. [See below.]" Options rotated

9/25-27/11
Mitt Romney 23%
Rick Perry 19%

8/29-31/11
Mitt Romney 22%
Rick Perry 29%

120 Achilles Tang  Wed, Sep 28, 2011 5:10:53pm

re: #107 albusteve

a dozen times or more...but when I plead to access more oil and gas to get us by, I get trashed...I see no alternative to the impending shitstorm

There is gas, and actually oil exploration is going ahead strong, although it is not in the news because it sounds better to some to gripe about it.

However, no matter how you do the numbers, this is a world market and the supply is growing less fast than the demand is, or is likely to do in any future.

The only solution lies in a combination of nuclear and renewable energy, and that is not going to happen in my or your lifetimes since it is on our back burner still (although not in all countries). Germany, for example expects to have 33% renewable by 2020. Sweden already exceeds that, but mainly through hydro. China is leading the world in solar...and so on.

121 prairiefire  Wed, Sep 28, 2011 5:11:46pm

re: #118 Decatur Deb

We have paid for it, a thousand times over.

I don't think we will have the option to walk away from an oil source within 20 years, no matter how bloody the history.

122 Achilles Tang  Wed, Sep 28, 2011 5:14:55pm

re: #112 wrenchwench

The costs are local and can amount to several thousand dollars for a small contractor. Then there are the legal liability costs. One unhappy customers with a lawsuit will kill most small contractors, just on the basis of being filed. I express an opinion in an area that I know something about and you apparently nothing.

You are being excessively argumentative here and are becoming a pedantic bore.

123 Atlas Fails  Wed, Sep 28, 2011 5:16:46pm

re: #114 albusteve

we've had since 1973 to wake up, and we haven't...a piss poor record to bet on...we should be exporting green tech world wide...big dogs, buy our pols have played the re-election card all this time...I hate the feds...it's gotten worse and it's not over

Like everything else...people say they want change, but are too dumb to recognize it when it comes. Look at the vicious campaigns against McCain in 2000 by the special interest groups he crippled. Look at how much Feingold's stand against soft money helped seal his fate in 2010.

Just like campaign finance reform, people say they want to protect the environment, but as soon as real solutions are offered (like signing onto the Kyoto Protocol or passing a cap and trade bill), they freak out because corporate shills convince them that they should fear the "job killing" regulations.

We're much happier to toss bottles in the recycling bin and buy reusable biodegradable grocery bags than do anything that might actually make a difference.

124 Dancing along the light of day  Wed, Sep 28, 2011 5:18:30pm

re: #122 Naso Tang

And you are being rude.
WW has tried to engage in a discussion with you
& you've got nothing.
Put up, or shut up.

125 researchok  Wed, Sep 28, 2011 5:19:49pm

re: #122 Naso Tang

Argue the point- let's not make it personal.

That's the main reason LGF works.

WW is good people.

I don't know if she can dance, though.

126 albusteve  Wed, Sep 28, 2011 5:21:00pm

re: #125 researchok

Argue the point- let's not make it personal.

That's the main reason LGF works.

WW is good people.

I don't know if she can dance, though.

anybody that digs Cooder can bust a move....trust me

127 makeitstop  Wed, Sep 28, 2011 5:21:07pm

re: #124 Floral Giraffe

re: #125 researchok

Agree on both counts.

128 researchok  Wed, Sep 28, 2011 5:22:43pm

re: #126 albusteve

anybody that digs Cooder can bust a move...trust me

Good point.

I bet with a nic like WW, her mom made her take ballroom dancing as a kid.

129 wrenchwench  Wed, Sep 28, 2011 5:23:24pm

re: #122 Naso Tang

The costs are local and can amount to several thousand dollars for a small contractor. Then there are the legal liability costs. One unhappy customers with a lawsuit will kill most small contractors, just on the basis of being filed. I express an opinion in an area that I know something about and you apparently nothing.

You are being excessively argumentative here and are becoming a pedantic bore.

It's always the pedantic bore that asks someone to back up their claims. From your first comment on the subject on this thread:

I doubt they could document a single case of lead poisoning in a renovator, or home owner after or during a completed renovation.

You were provided a link that gave such documentation, and your response was

I read that. The first described a dog licking paint chips during renovation and a family spending time in the home during renovation. The others talk of children of renovators having elevated levels and the last is less specific.

You complain about someone not giving specificity while giving none yourself. That's boring.

130 laZardo  Wed, Sep 28, 2011 5:26:34pm

Good afternoon folks, how's your health? ;D

[note: nsfw language]

131 Renaissance_Man  Wed, Sep 28, 2011 5:26:48pm

re: #125 researchok

Argue the point- let's not make it personal.

That's the main reason LGF works.

WW is good people.

I don't know if she can dance, though.

She can dance if she wants to.

She can leave her friends behind.

132 Achilles Tang  Wed, Sep 28, 2011 5:28:46pm

re: #124 Floral Giraffe

And you are being rude.
WW has tried to engage in a discussion with you
& you've got nothing.
Put up, or shut up.

Now you are being rude. She has done nothing but snipe and allege that I am making stuff up, when all I did was give an example of a regulation that has very real implications for hard working people that alleges a danger that if that real should have been addressed with the same type of legislation decades ago, when lead paint was recognized as a danger. This no new discovery.

There are regulations in place that I don't have a problem with. This particular addition is for situations that only applies in very uncommon situations, yet places a major financial and legal burden on people that could easily be covered with a much less onerous program of information, and seems to have been concocted by bureaucrats who have never left a desk.

133 researchok  Wed, Sep 28, 2011 5:30:37pm

re: #131 Renaissance_Man

She can dance if she wants to.

She can leave her friends behind.

[Video]

You are very strange.

Excellent.

134 Achilles Tang  Wed, Sep 28, 2011 5:31:38pm

re: #125 researchok

Argue the point- let's not make it personal.

That's the main reason LGF works.

WW is good people.

I don't know if she can dance, though.

I didn't make it personal. I made a point that wasn't countered with anything except suggestions that I was either callous or lazy about what I claimed or wrong, or making shit up.

135 wrenchwench  Wed, Sep 28, 2011 5:32:35pm

re: #132 Naso Tang

allege that I am making stuff up

Got a link for that?

136 wrenchwench  Wed, Sep 28, 2011 5:33:55pm

re: #134 Naso Tang

lazy

Got a link for that?

137 researchok  Wed, Sep 28, 2011 5:35:39pm

I have a suggestion- why don't you all beat up on me?

That ought to lighten things up.

(WW, I saw you laugh at that)

138 Achilles Tang  Wed, Sep 28, 2011 5:36:41pm

re: #129 wrenchwench

You complain about someone not giving specificity while giving none yourself. That's boring.

I claim that almost any human activity can come up with a few small samples of any activity that can be dangerous in certain circumstances.

Why don't we ban cantaloupes and require all farm workers to wear hazmat suits when handling agricultural products so they don't bring a contaminant home? I see that quite a few people have died from serious poisoning from those recently.

139 researchok  Wed, Sep 28, 2011 5:38:42pm

OK, I'll start:

I can't get the picture of Obama riding a bicycle out of my head.

That's why I won't vote for him.

140 Achilles Tang  Wed, Sep 28, 2011 5:40:33pm

re: #135 wrenchwench

Got a link for that?

Call me sensitive but you said

I said "what looks like callous..." because it looks like it to me. You are providing no evidence that what is being required now is "the n'th degree".

If you consider that polite conversation, so be it.

141 wrenchwench  Wed, Sep 28, 2011 5:40:35pm

re: #138 Naso Tang

I claim that almost any human activity can come up with a few small samples of any activity that can be dangerous in certain circumstances.

Why don't we ban cantaloupes and require all farm workers to wear hazmat suits when handling agricultural products so they don't bring a contaminant home? I see that quite a few people have died from serious poisoning from those recently.

I don't think "homes built before 1978" that get renovated are as rare as Listeria in cantaloupes. Good thing there are REGULATIONS in place that make it possible to trace the Listeria to its source.

142 Achilles Tang  Wed, Sep 28, 2011 5:42:38pm

re: #141 wrenchwench

I don't think "homes built before 1978" that get renovated are as rare as Listeria in cantaloupes. Good thing there are REGULATIONS in place that make it possible to trace the Listeria to its source.

Sorry, but you think anything called renovation is going to spread dangerous dust everywhere. You are wrong.

143 researchok  Wed, Sep 28, 2011 5:42:56pm

Times are tough when no one will beat on my right of center ass.

144 wrenchwench  Wed, Sep 28, 2011 5:43:03pm

re: #140 Naso Tang

Call me sensitive but you said

If you consider that polite conversation, so be it.

That's pretty far from saying you make things up. Or was that supposed to be one of those clever things which are an example of itself?

145 makeitstop  Wed, Sep 28, 2011 5:43:25pm

re: #139 researchok

OK, I'll start:

I can't get the picture of Obama riding a bicycle out of my head.

That's why I won't vote for him.

Bicyclist!

Oh, wait...

146 Wozza Matter?  Wed, Sep 28, 2011 5:45:05pm

re: #143 researchok

Times are tough when no one will beat on my right of center ass.

In the spirit of free enterprise.......... $200 an hour, you pay for the hotel room and bring your own paddle.

147 wrenchwench  Wed, Sep 28, 2011 5:45:35pm

re: #142 Naso Tang

Sorry, but you think anything called renovation is going to spread dangerous dust everywhere. You are wrong.

Again, an unfounded claim.

I'm going home.

Tomorrow (or whenever) we'll talk about something else.

148 researchok  Wed, Sep 28, 2011 5:46:39pm

Since there is so much energy here, I have an OT question: What is the deal with antioxidants? Is it for real, as a big a deal as they say it is?

And yes, I'm being serious. I just got on the supplements kick and it is hard to separate fact from fiction.

149 researchok  Wed, Sep 28, 2011 5:46:55pm

re: #146 wozzablog

In the spirit of free enterprise... $200 an hour, you pay for the hotel room and bring your own paddle.

OK, that made me laugh!

150 Renaissance_Man  Wed, Sep 28, 2011 5:48:39pm

re: #143 researchok

Times are tough when no one will beat on my right of center ass.

You have more than one ass?

I think I saw this on the Simpsons once.

Is the right of centre one appreciably different from the others?

151 researchok  Wed, Sep 28, 2011 5:49:35pm

re: #150 Renaissance_Man

You have more than one ass?

I think I saw this on the Simpsons once.

Is the right of centre one appreciably different from the others?

Only if you appreciate nuance.
/

152 researchok  Wed, Sep 28, 2011 5:50:52pm

Commenting on LGF and watching Extreme Couponing at the same time is a whole new experience

153 Achilles Tang  Wed, Sep 28, 2011 5:53:28pm

re: #147 wrenchwench

Again, an unfounded claim.

I'm going home.

Tomorrow (or whenever) we'll talk about something else.

You speak from ignorance and a desire for confrontation. I sought none.

154 Renaissance_Man  Wed, Sep 28, 2011 5:56:22pm

re: #148 researchok

Since there is so much energy here, I have an OT question: What is the deal with antioxidants? Is it for real, as a big a deal as they say it is?

And yes, I'm being serious. I just got on the supplements kick and it is hard to separate fact from fiction.

The short answer is yes, antioxidants are important. However, the odds of a supplement actually providing them are small. I have never seen a study of supplement efficacy that was peer reviewed and objectively done.

Micronutrients are known to be important, but how they work and are absorbed is still mostly a mystery. Any claim to the contrary is nothing but hype.

155 researchok  Wed, Sep 28, 2011 6:00:51pm

re: #154 Renaissance_Man

The short answer is yes, antioxidants are important. However, the odds of a supplement actually providing them are small. I have never seen a study of supplement efficacy that was peer reviewed and objectively done.

Micronutrients are known to be important, but how they work and are absorbed is still mostly a mystery. Any claim to the contrary is nothing but hype.

What is the best way to make sure you are consuming enough antioxidants?

156 Renaissance_Man  Wed, Sep 28, 2011 6:05:41pm

re: #155 researchok

What is the best way to make sure you are consuming enough antioxidants?

Not get cancer.

Otherwise, I would just eat whole foods. The less processed something is, the more micronutrients it's going to have. Processed foods may have nutrients supplemented, and may have all sorts of stuff replaced, but the truth is we have no idea what microelements and micronutrients we lose during processing, or how much to supplement, or even if we can supplement them in a manner that is absorbed.

B12, for instance, is a vitamin we know something about. If you eat a steak, which has B12, you absorb it fine. If you just add it to food, you won't absorb it. Who knows what you're absorbing and not absorbing when they add all the supplemental nutrients and such? However, clearly we have evolved to absorb this sort of stuff somehow, so the best bet is to eat less processed crap and cook more.

157 researchok  Wed, Sep 28, 2011 6:07:32pm

re: #156 Renaissance_Man

Good stuff, TY.

Better eating, not better supplements.

158 austin_blue  Wed, Sep 28, 2011 6:17:46pm

re: #139 researchok

OK, I'll start:

I can't get the picture of Obama riding a bicycle out of my head.

That's why I won't vote for him.

Anti-Schwinnest Agitator!

159 palomino  Wed, Sep 28, 2011 6:35:20pm

re: #119 engineer dog

new foxnews poll puts romney back on top

Fox News Poll conducted by Anderson Robbins Research (D) and Shaw & Company Research (R). Sept. 25-27, 2011. N=363 Republican primary voters nationwide. Margin of error ± 5.

"I'm going to read a list of the announced candidates for the 2012 Republican nomination. Please tell me which one you would like to see as the Republican presidential nominee. [See below.]" Options rotated

9/25-27/11
Mitt Romney 23%
Rick Perry 19%

8/29-31/11
Mitt Romney 22%
Rick Perry 29%

That didn't take long, did it? I wouldn't completely count him out yet, but Perry may be this year's Fred Thompson. And he ain't as smart as Fred Thompson.

160 wrenchwench  Thu, Sep 29, 2011 12:26:32pm

re: #153 Naso Tang

You speak from ignorance and a desire for confrontation. I sought none.

Let's take those one at a time:

You speak from ignorance

If asking you to back up your claims because I have no evidence myself that you are correct is what you call "ignorance", than I am proudly "ignorant".

and a desire for confrontation

I did not expect a confrontation. I expected a link or an explanation. Receiving neither, and persisting in asking, got me accusations of sniping, being boring, being pedantic, and being excessively argumentative. If you had said "persistent", you would have been accurate.

I sought none

Of course not. When you said,

Here's where I go conservative. Life is not free of all risk and I have been involved in this type of work for 20 years. I am well aware of lead paint dangers for anyone who eats it but the circumstances where it becomes a breathing hazard are few and far between, and any fool would protect himself when creating large amounts of dust, whether lead based or not. Mold is a greater danger and homeowners who don't require proper cleanup or live in the middle of renovation dust of any kind have only themselves and their stupidity to blame.

The EPA can publish a pamphlet and make sure every renovator and every city codes department hands them out when permits are pulled. That's all that would be needed.

...you were hoping your claims would be accepted as obvious truth. Sorry. You know what they say: "Expect to be fact-checked."


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