Kristof: ‘Occupy Wall Street’ Needs Clear Goals

“The protest reminded me a bit of Tahrir Square in Cairo”
Opinion • Views: 35,524

Nicholas Kristof makes some good points about the “Occupy Wall Street” movement, especially on its lack of clearly stated goals: The Bankers and the Revolutionaries.

To address that lack, Kristof has some suggestions:

Impose a financial transactions tax. This would be a modest tax on financial trades, modeled on the suggestions of James Tobin, an American economist who won a Nobel Prize. The aim is in part to dampen speculative trading that creates dangerous volatility. Europe is moving toward a financial transactions tax, but the Obama administration is resisting — a reflection of its deference to Wall Street.

Close the “carried interest” and “founders’ stock” loopholes, which may be the most unconscionable tax breaks in America. They allow our wealthiest citizens to pay very low tax rates by pretending that their labor compensation is a capital gain.

Protect big banks from themselves. This means moving ahead with Basel III capital requirements and adopting the Volcker Rule to limit banks’ ability to engage in risky and speculative investments. Another sensible proposal, embraced by President Obama and a number of international experts, is the bank tax. This could be based on an institution’s size and leverage, so that bankers could pay for their cleanups — the finance equivalent of a pollution tax.

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322 comments
1 Wozza Matter?  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 3:50:00pm

That would require organisation.

Something that very few grassroots movements have, but lots of astroturfed groups do have.

Theres an unfocussed rage-gasm happening.

2 freetoken  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 3:52:29pm

Many of the details of finance and financial institutions are blurry in my eyes - so much specialist lingo.

Yet I do agree that here in 2011 the governments of the world, including our own beloved Congress, seems to have dropped the ball on keeping up with regulating the beast of international finance.

There has to be a way to hold private organizations accountable while at the same time allowing the freedom of people to create or invest as they see fit.

3 laZardo  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 3:54:36pm

I was at Occupy Seattle yesterday morning and this is something they actually recognize. I wasn't there yesterday afternoon, but they are definitely trying to form an organizational structure at least within the different protest chapters.

This structure consists of various 'committees,' each with a representative. All these representatives - basically glorified messengers - meet at the General Assembly and can work with other committees as well. Ideally, that is the closest position they have to leadership, as they insist that being leaderless makes them more representative.

One of the committees, of course, is the one making the demands. There are others such as the ones that makes the graphics and signage (including ones that direct people to where to throw their garbage), first aid groups, and even ones that deal with getting the permits.

4 Wozza Matter?  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 3:57:21pm

Not enough dress up happening either. Which is another staple of good demonstrations these days.

Communists, pah. I haven't seen one clip of them doing this in full uniform -

5 freetoken  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 3:57:31pm

re: #3 laZardo

This structure consists of various 'committees,' each with a representative. All these representatives - basically glorified messengers - meet at the General Assembly and can work with other committees as well. Ideally, that is the closest position they have to leadership, as they insist that being leaderless makes them more representative.

Hmmm... "committees"... "General Assembly"... sounds commie to me.

Seriously though, I wonder if organizational paralysis, the bane of any large group of humans, might abort the movement before it accomplishes anything.

6 Decatur Deb  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 3:59:02pm

TPM or a similar blog was complaining this AM that only one national politician (Bernie Sanders, bless his heart) has come out in support of the demonstrations. How the hell could the President or Sen. Reid give a blanket endorsement of an action that embraces the worst of their nutcase subgroups? And yes, I would like a touch of pillage and torch for the responsible firms.

7 Wozza Matter?  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 3:59:21pm
8 Killgore Trout  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 3:59:50pm

If you want any of these things accomplished stay away from the protests. If you do decide to attend the protests here's some more practical advice....
Image: S3bkK.jpg

9 Michael McBacon  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 4:00:50pm

re: #2 freetoken

There has to be a way to hold private organizations accountable while at the same time allowing the freedom of people to create or invest as they see fit.

Agreed. "The Fed" are our friends.

10 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 4:01:39pm

re: #8 Killgore Trout

Where's the individualism in that? Where's the fun? Where's the danger?

12 Killgore Trout  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 4:02:59pm

re: #3 laZardo

I was at Occupy Seattle yesterday morning and this is something they actually recognize. I wasn't there yesterday afternoon, but they are definitely trying to form an organizational structure at least within the different protest chapters.

This structure consists of various 'committees,' each with a representative. All these representatives - basically glorified messengers - meet at the General Assembly and can work with other committees as well. Ideally, that is the closest position they have to leadership, as they insist that being leaderless makes them more representative.

One of the committees, of course, is the one making the demands. There are others such as the ones that makes the graphics and signage (including ones that direct people to where to throw their garbage), first aid groups, and even ones that deal with getting the permits.

Image: 320955_2065812650189_1390975847_31913057_1854765734_n.jpg
Damn, I haven't seen a Hare Krishna in decades.

13 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 4:03:18pm

People who are capable of setting clear goals, working diligently towards that end, and achieving those goals are all out in the workforce earning money.

Please note: I do not consider myself part of this group, unless eating more brownies counts as a clear goal. Even then I fall short; today we discovered we have no brownie mix in the house, causing The Princess to make brownies from scratch, only she's really bad at picking out recipes, and we currently have what is colloquially known as a "mess" in a pan on the stove, which I am picking out and eating anyway.

14 laZardo  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 4:03:55pm

re: #11 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

For the record, this is why I don't regret my outburst a couple threads ago.

15 feartrich  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 4:04:13pm

re: #8 Killgore Trout

If you want any of these things accomplished stay away from the protests. If you do decide to attend the protests here's some more practical advice...
Image: S3bkK.jpg

As a progressive, this is what frustrates me the most about left-wing protests. How can anyone take them seriously?

I don't think the lack of direction is what is Occupy's biggest problem. Their biggest problem is getting people excited enough to get on the streets. Most progressives are more focused on disarming the Tea Party than starting a counter-movement.

16 laZardo  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 4:04:21pm

re: #12 Killgore Trout

I thought they wore orange/saffron. Or was that another group?

17 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 4:04:24pm

re: #1 wozzablog

That would require organisation.

Something that very few grassroots movements have, but lots of astroturfed groups do have.

Theres an unfocussed rage-gasm happening.

Noooo!

The creeping commies, eeeee!

/eyeroll

18 Kragar  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 4:04:33pm

To quote:

"I think all right thinking people in this country are sick and tired of being told that ordinary, decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I'm certainly not! And I'm sick and tired of being told that I am."

19 Killgore Trout  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 4:05:40pm

re: #6 Decatur Deb

TPM or a similar blog was complaining this AM that only one national politician (Bernie Sanders, bless his heart) has come out in support of the demonstrations. How the hell could the President or Sen. Reid give a blanket endorsement of an action that embraces the worst of their nutcase subgroups? And yes, I would like a touch of pillage and torch for the responsible firms.

Certainly Obama will never support them aside from platitudes about the right to free speech. I think it's best that the Wall Street protesters stick to their message against capitalism and arresting bankers. Any sensible ideas they embrace will be tainted by association.

20 jaunte  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 4:06:01pm

Republican discovers it costs money to keep an eye on the banks:

U.S. Representative Spencer Bachus said the Securities and Exchange Commission may need more money to make changes he has proposed to address structural flaws and “organizational incoherence” at the agency.

“An increase in funding is probably necessary as part of the reform process,” Bachus, an Alabama Republican who leads the House Financial Services Committee, said today at a hearing in Washington. The call for additional funding may put Bachus at odds with fellow Republicans, who have opposed requests from President Barack Obama and SEC Chairman Mary Schapiro.
[Link: www.bloomberg.com...]

21 windsagio  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 4:06:35pm

re: #14 laZardo

For the record, this is why I don't regret my outburst a couple threads ago.

Having flashbacks to the WTO and the police teargassing/clubbing people for running away.

22 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 4:07:45pm

re: #14 laZardo

For the record, this is why I don't regret my outburst a couple threads ago.

There is plenty of schadenfreude from the rwnj about any protesters anywhere becoming the victims of state-sponsored violence. It's on LGF daily.

They love the idea of citizens getting squashed by the people who are paid from that very tax money. It has given the commie-baiting authoritarian rightwing a raging boner since at least Red Summer.

23 ProGunLiberal  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 4:07:49pm

I just got back from an event about puppies at the Museum. And I see a comment about Gus leaving.

What happened?

24 Wozza Matter?  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 4:07:59pm

re: #15 feartrich

As a progressive, this is what frustrates me the most about left-wing protests. How can anyone take them seriously?

I don't think the lack of direction is what is Occupy's biggest problem. Their biggest problem is getting people excited enough to get on the streets. Most progressives are more focused on disarming the Tea Party than starting a counter-movement.

Pretty much.

Progressives are bogged down in saving a present they hate from regressive elements who want to turn the USA into somewhere with the same level and efficacy of Government as Somalia or the Sudan, except they will have the guns.

25 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 4:09:22pm

re: #19 Killgore Trout

I appreciate the fact that you don't give a shit who you call out. You just call out those who need to be called out.

Fringe is fringe.

26 Wozza Matter?  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 4:09:42pm

re: #21 windsagio

Having flashbacks to the WTO and the police teargassing/clubbing people for running away.

A cop flat out assaulted a guy who died in london while he was walking away from a protest he wasn't even involved in.

Love the cops when they protect homeowners and businesses or are solving murders and crime - but in mass protest situations i'm always a might twitchy about them.

27 Alexzander  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 4:09:59pm

re: #23 ProLifeLiberal

I just got back from an event about puppies at the Museum. And I see a comment about Gus leaving.

What happened?

I think he was trying to voice support for the Occupy Wall St protests, was generally condemned, and decided this wasn't the place for him anymore.

28 Killgore Trout  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 4:10:12pm

re: #21 windsagio

Having flashbacks to the WTO and the police teargassing/clubbing people for running away. looting stores and breaking windows

Fixed it for you

29 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 4:10:35pm

re: #15 feartrich

As a progressive, this is what frustrates me the most about left-wing protests. How can anyone take them seriously?

What we're seeing, though, is people speaking out of two sides of their mouths.

OT1H, the protests are meaningless, with no credibility because of who's involved.

Then OTOH the protests are going to be the undoing of the sitting president/incumbent.

I call bollocks on both...if they were meaningless, there would not be this stupid handwringing about them. As for the undoing of the president, there are plenty of things that could accomplish that.

30 Four More Tears  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 4:11:02pm
Impose a financial transactions tax.

omg he wants to keep investors away and cost us moar jobbs!

31 bratwurst  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 4:11:22pm

Do me a favor...don't start comparing these people to the tea party until they are sponsoring presidential debates on television!

32 Wozza Matter?  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 4:11:25pm

re: #28 Killgore Trout

Fixed it for you

A British trade minister was tear gassed in Seattle.

All he was doing was looting third world economies.

33 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 4:11:40pm

Totally and utterly OT--

I just finished indexing 32 burial records from Dec 1852-Jan 1853. 32.

26 of them were under 18.

Remind me, again, why it's okay to forgo immunizations?

34 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 4:12:00pm

re: #26 wozzablog

I'd freak out also if I were a cop facing a mob who was acting "mobbish".

35 laZardo  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 4:13:31pm

re: #33 EmmmieG

Totally and utterly OT--

I just finished indexing 32 burial records from Dec 1852-Jan 1853. 32.

26 of them were under 18.

Remind me, again, why it's okay to forgo immunizations?

Related: Tweets of Old!

36 Wozza Matter?  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 4:14:00pm

re: #13 EmmmieG

People who are capable of setting clear goals, working diligently towards that end, and achieving those goals are all out in the workforce earning money.

Please note: I do not consider myself part of this group, unless eating more brownies counts as a clear goal. Even then I fall short; today we discovered we have no brownie mix in the house, causing The Princess to make brownies from scratch, only she's really bad at picking out recipes, and we currently have what is colloquially known as a "mess" in a pan on the stove, which I am picking out and eating anyway.

The really really clever ones are orking their way through the system to bring it down from inside.

Seriously - there were Trotskyite bankers working in London's square mile.

37 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 4:14:07pm

re: #31 bratwurst

Do me a favor...don't start comparing these people to the tea party until they are sponsoring presidential debates on television!

Or running headline-grabbing candidates, or making an OWS contingent in Congress, or running to townhalls in droves to shout down their own reps, or or or.

They are indeed a great distraction, this week, for people who can't keep their own side of the aisle clean, though.

Wonder what it will be, next week.

38 Alexzander  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 4:14:08pm

re: #33 EmmmieG

Totally and utterly OT--

I just finished indexing 32 burial records from Dec 1852-Jan 1853. 32.

26 of them were under 18.

Remind me, again, why it's okay to forgo immunizations?

One possible exception: your a black man in the 1950s living in Tuskegee, Alabama who appropriately does not trust the government.

39 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 4:14:37pm

re: #29 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

What we're seeing, though, is people speaking out of two sides of their mouths.

OT1H, the protests are meaningless, with no credibility because of who's involved.

Then OTOH the protests are going to be the undoing of the sitting president/incumbent.

I call bollocks on both...if they were meaningless, there would not be this stupid handwringing about them. As for the undoing of the president, there are plenty of things that could accomplish that.

I think they're pretty thoroughly meaningless. I've seen several of these mini-movements, and basically, I have no faith in them.

My only concern is that this may morph into an active fad of using left-wing organizing power to undermine the Democrats in 2012.

My only hope is that it may not.

40 laZardo  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 4:14:39pm

re: #26 wozzablog

A cop flat out assaulted a guy who died in london while he was walking away from a protest he wasn't even involved in.

Love the cops when they protect homeowners and businesses or are solving murders and crime - but in mass protest situations i'm always a might twitchy about them.

The "thin blue line" unfortunately extends around both groups.

41 Kragar  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 4:15:47pm

re: #33 EmmmieG

Totally and utterly OT--

I just finished indexing 32 burial records from Dec 1852-Jan 1853. 32.

26 of them were under 18.

Remind me, again, why it's okay to forgo immunizations?

Jesus.

42 Wozza Matter?  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 4:16:17pm

re: #34 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I'd freak out also if I were a cop facing a mob who was acting "mobbish".

The vast majority of Demonstrators are people milling about with placards or shouting non-specific slogans.
Police tend to treat these people as "mobs" regardless.

43 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 4:16:19pm

re: #38 Alexzander

One possible exception: your a black man in the 1950s living in Tuskegee, Alabama who appropriately does not trust the government.

There are no immunizations for syphilis.

44 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 4:16:21pm

re: #31 bratwurst

Do me a favor...don't start comparing these people to the tea party until they are sponsoring presidential debates on television!

Odds are very, very, very heavy that they will never have that kind of influence no matter what. I run my usual note to the world again: "The fringer left is not the Democratic base in the way that that the fringer right is the Republican. There is simply no bilateral symmetry to be had here."

45 ProGunLiberal  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 4:16:25pm

re: #36 wozzablog

I wish our protesters had specifically stated goals.

Take a page from the protests in the Arab World, please.

And I found the most awesome advertisement ever.

46 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 4:17:08pm

re: #33 EmmmieG

Totally and utterly OT--

I just finished indexing 32 burial records from Dec 1852-Jan 1853. 32.

26 of them were under 18.

Remind me, again, why it's okay to forgo immunizations?

Because people are stupid, and lack historical or biological perspective?

47 Alexzander  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 4:17:53pm

re: #43 EmmmieG

There are no immunizations for syphilis.

No but the US gave it to black men and women in Tuskegee, telling them it was free medical treatment/immunizations. Obviously it was not.

48 Wozza Matter?  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 4:18:04pm

re: #45 ProLifeLiberal

I wish our protesters had specifically stated goals.

Take a page from the protests in the Arab World, please.

And I found the most awesome advertisement ever.

That is an awesome sign.

Hey, the left is only organised when it's fighting Fascism. Which is why they are lined up four square against the Tea Party.

(only the slightest hint of sarc)

49 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 4:18:11pm

re: #46 SanFranciscoZionist

Because people are stupid, and lack historical or biological perspective?

Sigh. The fact that it was in December did not escape me. Probably a lot of flu aggravated by poor hygiene and malnutrition.

50 Wozza Matter?  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 4:19:14pm

re: #34 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I'd freak out also if I were a cop facing a mob who was acting "mobbish".

Also - cops are paid not to freak out.

51 laZardo  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 4:19:25pm

re: #45 ProLifeLiberal

LOL

Fuck, now I wanna go see Machete.

52 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 4:19:37pm

re: #34 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I'd freak out also if I were a cop facing a mob who was acting "mobbish".

This kind of situation can be a cop's nightmare. It is especially hard to work with a group like this, containing a witches' brew of rogue elements and individuals.

And while any cop who fucks up on civil rights and civilized behavior needs to get slammed hard, I get pretty sick of assholes who figure that the cops should just stand back and let the mob go where it wants and do what it wants--but be on call, in case anyone gets hurt.

53 laZardo  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 4:19:53pm

re: #50 wozzablog

Also - cops are paid not to freak out.

It affects the aim of the truncheon and tear gas grenades if you're freaking out...

54 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 4:19:55pm

re: #36 wozzablog

The really really clever ones are orking their way through the system to bring it down from inside.

Seriously - there were Trotskyite bankers working in London's square mile.

How'd that work out for them?

55 ProGunLiberal  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 4:20:21pm

re: #48 wozzablog

We need some leftists in the US who have been paying attention to what has been happening in the Middle East, especially in Tunisia and Egypt. Having specific things makes it easier to get attention.

Libya, Syria, and Yemen don't need to be thought of in this situation.

56 Wozza Matter?  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 4:21:23pm

re: #54 SanFranciscoZionist

How'd that work out for them?

Eh.

Pay was good, but while they were doing that the LAbour party was being over-run by MI5 agents and turned into the Tory-Lite brand.

57 Killgore Trout  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 4:21:27pm

re: #42 wozzablog

The vast majority of Demonstrators are people milling about with placards or shouting non-specific slogans.
Police tend to treat these people as "mobs" regardless.

Then Why haven't there been mass arrests or macings at Tea Parties? I find it really hard to take these claims seriously that people rioting are innocent victims. Lefties really need to re-learn civil disobedience. It's not about being a douche, getting arresting and then crying like a baby, claiming innocence and police brutality. Thoreau, MLK, Ghandi, etc never would have gone anywhere with tactics like that.

58 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 4:21:49pm

re: #56 wozzablog

Eh.

Pay was good, but while they were doing that the LAbour party was being over-run by MI5 agents and turned into the Tory-Lite brand.

Ah well. At least they can be bitter in well-appointed homes.

59 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 4:22:24pm

re: #47 Alexzander

No but the US gave it to black men and women in Tuskegee, telling them it was free medical treatment/immunizations. Obviously it was not.

Just checked. In Tuskegee they failed to treat men who had contracted it on their own.

Still wrong.

60 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 4:23:35pm

re: #39 SanFranciscoZionist

I think they're pretty thoroughly meaningless. I've seen several of these mini-movements, and basically, I have no faith in them.

My only concern is that this may morph into an active fad of using left-wing organizing power to undermine the Democrats in 2012.

My only hope is that it may not.

I don't think they will, any more than the Cindy Sheehan contingent undermined Nancy Pelosi in 2008. It's the exact same people.

The rwnj are going to pull out every stop they can muster to oust Obama, from racebaiting to firing up the leftybaggers, some of whom do have a reputation of getting in bed with anybody. (See the infamous example of Jane Hamsher and Grover Norquist.)

Since we are coming up on a GE year, it's to the rw's benefit to give the impression this group has more political clout than it actually does. I don't trust any of the above, tbf.

61 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 4:24:18pm

re: #59 EmmmieG

Just checked. In Tuskegee they failed to treat men who had contracted it on their own.

Still wrong.

It's true that all people have reason not to trust the powers that be some of the time, and some people have reason not to trust the powers that be most of the time...but it's also true that reflexively rejecting medication because medication has been used for evil purposes in the past is not going to get you much of anywhere except dead.

62 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 4:25:06pm

re: #60 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

I don't think they will, any more than the Cindy Sheehan contingent undermined Nancy Pelosi in 2008. It's the exact same people.

True. Although people are broker now.

I don't think they will either, it's just the back-of-my-head worry.

63 Wozza Matter?  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 4:25:18pm

re: #55 ProLifeLiberal

We need some leftists in the US who have been paying attention to what has been happening in the Middle East, especially in Tunisia and Egypt. Having specific things makes it easier to get attention.

Libya, Syria, and Yemen don't need to be thought of in this situation.

No arguments here.

Co-ordinated massed protests around the country would be awesome, a thousand Wisconsin protests happening at once to protect union rights, to demand banking reform and Boss class pay restraint. All would be excellent.

None of which will happen though. The DNC would run a mile, top line Democrats wouldn't attend. They don't think there are votes in frightening the horses.

64 ProGunLiberal  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 4:25:27pm

re: #57 Killgore Trout

In other words: Learn from Tahrir Square!

65 Vicious Babushka  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 4:25:34pm

Bank of America has just announced they are going to start charging a fee on their debit cards. WTFF? That's really sticking it to the frugal, those of us that have cut up our credit cards and live on what we have.

SUCKS!

What bank should I transfer my hard-earned, worked-for money to?

66 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 4:26:02pm

re: #61 SanFranciscoZionist

It's true that all people have reason not to trust the powers that be some of the time, and some people have reason not to trust the powers that be most of the time...but it's also true that reflexively rejecting medication because medication has been used for evil purposes in the past is not going to get you much of anywhere except dead.

Especially when we've had most of the last century to see that the immunizations were doing what they were supposed to do.

Honestly, if all parents had to walk an old graveyard before their kids were born...

67 ProGunLiberal  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 4:27:16pm

re: #65 Alouette

I heard a good analogy for this.

Basically, it's a bribe to get your money. Bank of America has become a Mob (Not the disorganized crowd type).

They have fallen FAR from when they were formed.

68 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 4:27:40pm

re: #65 Alouette

Bank of America has just announced they are going to start charging a fee on their debit cards. WTFF? That's really sticking it to the frugal, those of us that have cut up our credit cards and live on what we have.

SUCKS!

What bank should I transfer my hard-earned, worked-for money to?

I hear that small credit unions are good. My parents belong to the local firefighters' CU (you don't have to be a firefighter to join), and they like it.

Also, Andy Borowitz's comment on this is that BofA is like a man saved from a burning building who proceeds to kick the fireman in the balls.

69 laZardo  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 4:27:49pm

re: #65 Alouette

Bank of America has just announced they are going to start charging a fee on their debit cards. WTFF? That's really sticking it to the frugal, those of us that have cut up our credit cards and live on what we have.

SUCKS!

What bank should I transfer my hard-earned, worked-for money to?

Why transfer it to a bank? Use a credit union.

/you thought I was gonna say precious metals, didn't you. ;D

70 Wozza Matter?  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 4:28:01pm

re: #57 Killgore Trout

I find it really hard to take these claims seriously that people rioting are innocent victims. Lefties really need to re-learn civil disobedience.

The highlighted people maced in New York were not rioting.

The left also remembers Kent State and how well that turned out.

71 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 4:29:00pm

re: #66 EmmmieG

Especially when we've had most of the last century to see that the immunizations were doing what they were supposed to do.

Honestly, if all parents had to walk an old graveyard before their kids were born...

I used to take long walks through the St. Pancras cemetery when I lived nearby in London. There was this one family--they lost four or five children very young, and then the two boys who survived died in their early twenties--World War I to judge by the dates.

I had no idea who these people were. I cried.

72 recusancy  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 4:29:10pm

re: #65 Alouette

Bank of America has just announced they are going to start charging a fee on their debit cards. WTFF? That's really sticking it to the frugal, those of us that have cut up our credit cards and live on what we have.

SUCKS!

What bank should I transfer my hard-earned, worked-for money to?

[Link: banksimple.com...]

73 windsagio  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 4:29:20pm

re: #28 Killgore Trout

Naturally they were near a protest so they must've been guilty of something!

74 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 4:29:27pm

re: #52 SanFranciscoZionist

That thing you said, there.

75 windsagio  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 4:30:04pm

re: #65 Alouette

Just about any Credit union.

76 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 4:30:26pm

re: #68 SanFranciscoZionist

I hear that small credit unions are good. My parents belong to the local firefighters' CU (you don't have to be a firefighter to join), and they like it.

Also, Andy Borowitz's comment on this is that BofA is like a man saved from a burning building who proceeds to kick the fireman in the balls.

I worked for a credit union years ago. I won't bank anywhere else.

77 recusancy  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 4:30:35pm

re: #70 wozzablog

The highlighted people maced in New York were not rioting.

The left also remembers Kent State and how well that turned out.

You'll never convince an authoritarian that hippies shouldn't be punched and maced.

78 windsagio  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 4:30:58pm

re: #57 Killgore Trout

Then Why haven't there been mass arrests or macings at Tea Parties? I find it really hard to take these claims seriously that people rioting are innocent victims. Lefties really need to re-learn civil disobedience. It's not about being a douche, getting arresting and then crying like a baby, claiming innocence and police brutality. Thoreau, MLK, Ghandi, etc never would have gone anywhere with tactics like that.

Because the police have a conservative bias.

No I'm neither joking nor being sarcastic.

79 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 4:31:15pm

re: #59 EmmmieG

Just checked. In Tuskegee they failed to treat men who had contracted it on their own.

Still wrong.

Not quite. They were told they were being treated for "bad blood", when they were not being treated at all, just simply being observed.

It's not the first or only time, just one of the most infamous and egregious.

Our Jim Crow medical history hasn't exactly inspired confidence in either the medical establishment or the government, I believe was Alexander's point.

80 Wozza Matter?  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 4:31:46pm

re: #77 recusancy

You'll never convince an authoritarian that hippies shouldn't be punched and maced.

Sit ins and drum circles iz serious bizness.

81 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 4:32:38pm

re: #70 wozzablog

The highlighted people maced in New York were not rioting.

The left also remembers Kent State and how well that turned out.

More than 3 "leftys" at one time is a riot.

All leftists eventually get violent.

Everybody knows that. / e_e

82 windsagio  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 4:32:51pm

re: #77 recusancy

You'll never convince an authoritarian that hippies shouldn't be punched and maced.

I don't remember who exactly, but I heard on NPR that some gov't functionary or other (state level I think) was actually telling people to switch banks to credit unions in response to the user fee thing.

Also in the works from a national bank: A fee if you let your acc't fall below $1500.00 (I'll dig up the link)

Edit: I clearly quoted the wrong thread, lol. Was to the person saying they'd only bank at CU's.

83 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 4:33:01pm

re: #80 wozzablog

Sit ins and drum circles iz serious bizness.

Zombie did a piece for PJ Media of the organizing event in SF. Dark Falcon thought it was a slime piece on Z's part, but I didn't think it was particularly bad--there just wasn't much to it. The usual suspects, trying to save the world in small committees again.

84 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 4:34:43pm

re: #80 wozzablog

Sit ins and drum circles iz serious bizness.

The creeping shariah conspiracy theory bears little difference from the creeping zionism or creeping commie one.

85 Henchman 26  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 4:34:55pm

Ten (10)

86 Wozza Matter?  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 4:35:04pm

re: #83 SanFranciscoZionist

Zombie did a piece for PJ Media of the organizing event in SF. Dark Falcon thought it was a slime piece on Z's part, but I didn't think it was particularly bad--there just wasn't much to it. The usual suspects, trying to save the world in small committees again.

There has never been a monument built to a committee.

87 windsagio  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 4:35:14pm

Found it.

$10/month if your combined checking and savings is under 1500.

Edit: Same article, BOA already charges a checking account fee (just for having one lol) and $7/month for visiting tellers or getting a paper statement.

88 laZardo  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 4:35:59pm

I have one concern about credit unions - they have a fairly limited "reach." I don't want to have to be charged fees at every ATM...

89 ProGunLiberal  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 4:37:00pm

re: #88 laZardo

Ah yes. I have had to deal with this.

90 Wozza Matter?  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 4:37:38pm

re: #83 SanFranciscoZionist

Zombie did a piece for PJ Media of the organizing event in SF. Dark Falcon thought it was a slime piece on Z's part, but I didn't think it was particularly bad--there just wasn't much to it. The usual suspects, trying to save the world in small committees again.

(I don't know who that is or half the context of most of that)

91 windsagio  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 4:38:02pm

re: #88 laZardo

You just learn to withdraw large amounts at once when you're out of your home turf. A few bucks on say a $200 withdrawal is obnoxious, but not unacceptable.

92 windsagio  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 4:38:45pm

re: #90 wozzablog

(I don't know who that is or half the context of most of that)

Zombie is some old LGF person from before the great demographic shift, when the commentators were to a vast majority, conservatives.

93 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 4:39:26pm

re: #88 laZardo

I have one concern about credit unions - they have a fairly limited "reach." I don't want to have to be charged fees at every ATM...

I can get cash back when I buy groceries at the grocery store with my debit card.

Also, the bank is on the way to the grocery store.

I only get charged a fee when I fail to plan and have to use the Bank of America ATM.

The credit union I worked at had an actual "no nuisance fee" policy.

94 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 4:40:37pm

I really love the "fix your typo" button. I just have to say that.

95 Wozza Matter?  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 4:41:03pm

re: #92 windsagio

Danke.

96 Henchman 26  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 4:42:38pm

re: #94 EmmmieG

I really love the "fix your typo" button. I just have to say that.

Now if it could just read your mind and fix the typo before you hit the post button...

97 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 4:42:53pm

re: #91 windsagio

You just learn to withdraw large amounts at once when you're out of your home turf. A few bucks on say a $200 withdrawal is obnoxious, but not unacceptable.

I'll have to find out some day what the limit is for withdrawing cash if you're only buying a soda and some Doritos.

I never buy a soda and some Doritos, so I don't know. I buy four gallons of milk, two bags of chips, and an entire cart full of food.

98 Henchman 26  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 4:44:49pm

re: #97 EmmmieG

I'll have to find out some day what the limit is for withdrawing cash if you're only buying a soda and some Doritos.

I never buy a soda and some Doritos, so I don't know. I buy four gallons of milk, two bags of chips, and an entire cart full of food.

The only thing we buy one at a time is fresh bread.
We keep cash in the car just for that.

99 windsagio  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 4:45:09pm

re: #97 EmmmieG

I'll have to find out some day what the limit is for withdrawing cash if you're only buying a soda and some Doritos.

I never buy a soda and some Doritos, so I don't know. I buy four gallons of milk, two bags of chips, and an entire cart full of food.

It's pretty high (thats how I get gas), but I dunno never done more than like $40 at a grocery store... makes me feel self concious ;)

100 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 4:45:37pm

re: #99 windsagio

It's pretty high (thats how I get gas), but I dunno never done more than like $40 at a grocery store... makes me feel self concious ;)

You worry what the cashiers will think of you?

101 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 4:48:46pm

re: #99 windsagio

It's pretty high (thats how I get gas), but I dunno never done more than like $40 at a grocery store... makes me feel self concious ;)

I would, but we city-dwellers don't have anywhere to put cartfulls of food. Or the minivan to transport it lol

102 Ben G. Hazi  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 4:48:52pm

re: #88 laZardo

I have one concern about credit unions - they have a fairly limited "reach." I don't want to have to be charged fees at every ATM...

Some credit unions will not charge you for out-of-network ATM transactions; some may go as far as to reimburse you for fees incurred for ATM transactions that are charged by the ATM operator.

That said, as far as this BofA business is concerned, I can't work up sufficient outrageous outrage over it, as least not at this point. So, as a BofA customer, I'll have to start paying five bones a month if I use my Visa debit card for debit transactions (which is a certainty). Considering that I use my debit card for almost every thing (I almost never write a check anymore) and that my checking account is free because I use direct deposit for my paychecks, five bucks a month is still not bad, as a percentage of what money flows through that card every month.

Am I happy about having to pay the fee? Not really, but I like BofA's service and their tools (their online banking site and mobile banking app for Android's are pretty good) and I think that even moving to another national bank (Wells Fargo) or superregional bank (US Bank, Regions), not to mention a strictly local credit union, would be a step down for me in the level of service I expect for what would I pay them. If BofA starts proposing more BS fees, however, I may revisit this at a later date.

103 Henchman 26  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 4:49:19pm

re: #99 windsagio

It's pretty high (thats how I get gas), but I dunno never done more than like $40 at a grocery store... makes me feel self concious ;)

Methane is a by-product of high limits?

Adding methane to an enclosed space should make you self conscious.

104 BishopX  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 4:49:29pm

re: #99 windsagio

It's pretty high (thats how I get gas), but I dunno never done more than like $40 at a grocery store... makes me feel self concious ;)

My bank (TD) will let you get several hundred dollars cash back IIRC, you will have to show an ID though.

105 windsagio  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 4:51:17pm

re: #100 EmmmieG

You worry what the cashiers will think of you?

we all have our hangups :p

re: #104 BishopX

Talking about getting cash out with a grocery store purchase tho'.

106 ProGunLiberal  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 4:51:59pm

I found this on ICanHazCheeseburger. The comment is good, but not an explanation.

Anyone have one?

107 Atlas Fails  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 4:53:02pm

From Breitbart: The Prophecy of 'Atlas Shrugged'

Given its colossal box office failure, I'd say that a sequel is not in Atlas's future. lol.

108 Henchman 26  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 4:53:04pm

re: #105 windsagio

we all have our hangups :p

re: #104 BishopX

Talking about getting cash out with a grocery store purchase tho'.

I never bother pulling cash when I pay for groceries, I always use the bank ATM.

109 Wozza Matter?  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 4:53:50pm

re: #106 ProLifeLiberal

I found this on ICanHazCheeseburger. The comment is good, but not an explanation.

Anyone have one?

alt caption

"IT NEVER CAUGHT ON"

110 laZardo  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 4:53:57pm

re: #106 ProLifeLiberal

I found this on ICanHazCheeseburger. The comment is good, but not an explanation.

Anyone have one?

It's jousting on old-fashioned bicycles. FUCK YEAH

Edit: Also, the only way it could have been more hardcore if it were on Pennyfarthings.

111 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 4:54:14pm

Well, one thing I can say for the OWS protests. At least they know how to spell their picket signs.

Unlike the tea party and their intellectual forebears.

112 BishopX  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 4:55:21pm

re: #105 windsagio

Yes. The most I've ever pulled out at a store was 100. Last time I checked I believe I could get up to 300 at a store (which is the same limit as an ATM).

113 Wozza Matter?  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 4:55:26pm

re: #111 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

Well, one thing I can say for the OWS protests. At least they know how to spell their picket signs.

godhatesprotesters.files.wordpress.com...]>Unlike the tea party and their intellectual progeny.

They maybe able to spell, but not it seems post working weblinks..........


:p

114 Henchman 26  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 4:55:53pm

re: #111 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

Well, one thing I can say for the OWS protests. At least they know how to spell their picket signs.

godhatesprotesters.files.wordpress.com...]>Unlike the tea party and their intellectual progeny.

That's because the left is part of the ivory tower elite.

115 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 4:55:57pm

re: #108 b_sharp

I never bother pulling cash when I pay for groceries, I always use the bank ATM.

Yes, but if your banking institution doesn't have a convenient ATM, you won't get charged a fee doing it that way.

116 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 4:56:18pm

re: #113 wozzablog

They maybe able to spell, but not it seems post working weblinks...

:p

I wz able to fix in time thx to tiny pencil!

117 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 4:57:08pm

re: #114 b_sharp

That's because the left is part of the ivory tower elite.

I sware to be an elitists.

118 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 4:57:34pm

The fee-for-seeing-a-human has been tried before. When we first got married, my husband had somehow signed up for one not realizing what it was. (Seriously. I think he skips fine print because he expects the fine print to be logical.)

That was Wells Fargo, early 90's.

119 Henchman 26  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 4:57:44pm

re: #115 EmmmieG

Yes, but if your banking institution doesn't have a convenient ATM, you won't get charged a fee doing it that way.

Ahh. Now the reason people do it makes sense. I end up depositing cheques several times a week so I have more than ample opportunity to use the bank's ATM.

120 Henchman 26  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 4:58:50pm

re: #117 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

I sware to be an elitists.

I wanna be a elitistist to and get money fer nothing.

121 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 4:59:23pm

re: #118 EmmmieG

I'm an outgoing friendly type.

I used to like dealing with meat-world. Not anymore.

I pulled up to a gas station the other day that did not have pay at the pump (I looked around for Goober or Gomer) and drove on to the next station.

122 Wozza Matter?  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 4:59:34pm

re: #120 b_sharp

I wanna be a elitistist to and get money fer nothing.

And your chicks for free?..............

123 Ben G. Hazi  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 4:59:42pm

re: #120 b_sharp

I wanna be a elitistist to and get money fer nothing.

And your chicks for free...

124 Ben G. Hazi  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 5:00:08pm

re: #122 wozzablog

And your chicks for free?...

Jinx!

125 Wozza Matter?  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 5:00:27pm

re: #123 talon_262

see immediately above :p

126 Henchman 26  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 5:01:09pm

re: #123 talon_262

And your chicks for free...

re: #122 wozzablog

And your chicks for free?...

deja vu all over again.

127 Wozza Matter?  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 5:01:11pm

re: #125 wozzablog

Seems like you did already :p

128 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 5:03:08pm

re: #127 wozzablog

Pardon me for asking. But?

whatinthehellisyouravatar?

129 Ben G. Hazi  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 5:03:16pm

re: #126 b_sharp

re: #122 wozzablog

deja vu all over again.

Ahh, Yogi-isms...

130 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 5:04:11pm

re: #121 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I'm an outgoing friendly type.

I used to like dealing with meat-world. Not anymore.

I pulled up to a gas station the other day that did not have pay at the pump (I looked around for Goober or Gomer) and drove on to the next station.

I remember the advent of pay at the pump. When you have a baby and a toddler in the car, not having to get them out to go in and get pre-approved, come back out and pump, then go in and pay was...not a happy thing.

131 sattv4u2  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 5:04:22pm

re: #129 talon_262

Ahh, Yogi-isms...

Always go to other people's funerals, otherwise they won't come to yours.

132 Ben G. Hazi  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 5:05:58pm

re: #131 sattv4u2

Always go to other people's funerals, otherwise they won't come to yours.

[Link: www.yogiberra.com...]

133 Henchman 26  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 5:06:08pm

re: #131 sattv4u2

Always go to other people's funerals, otherwise they won't come to yours.

That's a haunting thought.

134 Wozza Matter?  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 5:06:19pm

re: #128 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Pardon me for asking. But?

whatinthehellisyouravatar?

The clan badge from the auld country.

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

135 sattv4u2  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 5:06:58pm

re: #130 EmmmieG

I remember the advent of pay at the pump

Me too

The end of service at a "service station"

Worked at one for a summer as a teen

While I filled "your" tank, I'd clean the windows and check the air pressure in the tires

136 sattv4u2  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 5:07:54pm

re: #128 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Pardon me for asking. But?

whatinthehellisyouravatar?

I thought you were going to ask for Grey Poupon!

137 Wozza Matter?  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 5:08:48pm

re: #128 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Pardon me for asking. But?

whatinthehellisyouravatar?

Text from -
[Link: www.clan-macleod-scotland.org.uk...]

The crest of Hugh MacLeod of MacLeod is a black bull’s headbetween two flag poles with red flags and his motto is Hold fast. The motto relates to the occasion when a MacLeod chief wrestled a bull to the ground and the crowd shouted Hold Fast.

Clansfolk of the MacLeods of Harris and Dunvegan family may wear a crest badgeof the chief's crest of bull's head between two flags,surrounded by a buckled belt, to show allegiance, with the motto Hold Fast.

138 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 5:09:04pm

re: #121 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I only walk into my bank when disaster's has struck.

I had a two dollar check in my car for three months before I walked into a lobby for something else and cashed it.

139 Atlas Fails  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 5:09:31pm

re: #111 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

Well, one thing I can say for the OWS protests. At least they know how to spell their picket signs.

Unlike the tea party and their intellectual forebears.

I think history will ultimately remember OWS (if it lasts anyway) as similar to the hippies of the '60s- full of naive college kids and radicals, but with the heart of the movement in the right place. The teabaggers will go down with the Know Nothings and Birchers as nothing more than hateful nativists afraid that "their" country was being taken away from them by the bogeyman of the moment.

Big difference.

140 sattv4u2  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 5:09:41pm

re: #134 wozzablog

The clan badge from the auld country.

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

Was that a KLU!?!?!

///

141 Varek Raith  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 5:09:52pm

re: #128 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Pardon me for asking. But?

whatinthehellisyouravatar?

THERE CAN BE ONLY ONE!
And it ain't you!
/
:P

142 Wozza Matter?  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 5:10:08pm

re: #140 sattv4u2

Was that a KLU!?!?!

///

Nyet.

143 Henchman 26  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 5:11:32pm

re: #134 wozzablog

The clan badge from the auld country.

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

Cool.

Here's my grandfather's.

144 Lidane  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 5:11:40pm

re: #19 Killgore Trout

Personally, I'd like to see people look at the OWS protests as a means of implementing financial reform, but without echoing the OWS agenda. Arresting bankers won't solve a damned thing, but finding ways to hold the banks accountable for their speculation would be a great thing.

145 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 5:12:25pm

Ray Lewis scares me.

I'm just sayin'.

146 sattv4u2  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 5:13:41pm

re: #145 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Ray Lewis scares me.

I'm just sayin'.

What doesn't?

(besides cake)

147 Wozza Matter?  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 5:14:18pm

re: #143 b_sharp

Cool.

Here's my grandfather's.

Motto translates as "through hardship".

Very cool, very Scots.

Very little of the "For Glory" hyperbole in the auld heraldry.

Most of it is -hang on in, through hard times, etc etc.

148 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 5:15:35pm

re: #144 Lidane

At the board meeting.

"A bunch of people are outside yelling that they want us to give more money away and make less money and pay out less to our stockholders."

After a moment of silent consideration.

Laughter.

149 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 5:15:57pm

re: #139 Atlas Fails

I think history will ultimately remember OWS (if it lasts anyway) as similar to the hippies of the '60s- full of naive college kids and radicals, but with the heart of the movement in the right place. The teabaggers will go down with the Know Nothings and Birchers as nothing more than hateful nativists afraid that "their" country was being taken away from them by the bogeyman of the moment.

Big difference.

The Birchers are the cons who supported them in the 60s. They would have supported the Know Nothings be they Ds or defecting in to the Rs. They now support the tea party and sponsored CPAC the past 2 years. There is no difference in ideology; lots of difference from the OWS protests.

150 Henchman 26  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 5:17:02pm

re: #147 wozzablog

Motto translates as "through hardship".

Very cool, very Scots.

Very little of the "For Glory" hyperbole in the auld heraldry.

Most of it is -hang on in, through hard times, etc etc.

My grandfather's last name was Wright. His dad's last name was MacIntyre.
I didn't know that until just a few years ago and had no idea why the names were different.

151 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 5:18:59pm

re: #120 b_sharp

I wanna be a elitistist to and get money fer nothing.

Do you want your MTV?

152 Wozza Matter?  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 5:19:08pm

re: #150 b_sharp

My grandfather's last name was Wright. His dad's last name was MacIntyre.
I didn't know that until just a few years ago and had no idea why the names were different.

Names change a lot and for very little discernible reason in genealogy, spellings mostly but sometimes names just - change.

153 laZardo  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 5:20:48pm

re: #151 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

D you want your MTV?

The one with the maggot with the earring and the makeup?

/yeah buddy, that's his own hair

154 Wozza Matter?  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 5:22:39pm

re: #147 wozzablog

Motto translates as "through hardship".

Very cool, very Scots.

Very little of the "For Glory" hyperbole in the auld heraldry.

Most of it is -hang on in, through hard times, etc etc.

A list of Mottos, many uplifiting, some odd but most are sticktuitive -

[Link: www.celticstudio.com...]

155 Lidane  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 5:23:16pm

re: #148 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Right. Which is why street protests are a half-step above useless, at least here in the States.

Better to find some means of enacting financial reform by using the OWS nonsense as a catalyst. There's loads of room for real reform to be made, but it's not going to happen based on a bunch of people holding die-ins and carrying homemade signs.

156 Henchman 26  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 5:23:43pm

re: #152 wozzablog

Names change a lot and for very little discernible reason in genealogy, spellings mostly but sometimes names just - change.

My gramps was the first generation born in Canada. I suspect that his dad's name was just translated into English since both have something to do with carpentry. My paternal great-grandfather's last name was changed from one obviously German to something less obvious.

157 Varek Raith  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 5:24:23pm

re: #154 wozzablog

A list of Mottos, many uplifiting, some odd but most are sticktuitive -

[Link: www.celticstudio.com...]

Indeed.

DANDER IS SWEET

158 Wozza Matter?  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 5:25:03pm

re: #156 b_sharp

My gramps was the first generation born in Canada. I suspect that his dad's name was just translated into English since both have something to do with carpentry. My paternal great-grandfather's last name was changed from one obviously German to something less obvious.

Canada hosts many of my kinsmen and has a great Scots heritage. Never been, want to very badly though.

159 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 5:26:36pm

re: #155 Lidane

Right. Which is why street protests are a half-step above useless, at least here in the States.

Better to find some means of enacting financial reform by using the OWS nonsense as a catalyst. There's loads of room for real reform to be made, but it's not going to happen based on a bunch of people holding die-ins and carrying homemade signs.

The commiebaiters on the rwnj right cannot be reminded of this, enough.

160 Wozza Matter?  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 5:27:12pm

re: #157 Varek Raith

TOUCH NOT THE CAT WITHOUT A TARGE

161 laZardo  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 5:27:36pm

re: #157 Varek Raith

COCKBURN

HE ROUSES UP BY CROWING

XD

162 Henchman Ghazi-808  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 5:28:07pm

FURTH FORTUNE AND FILL THE FETTERS

163 sattv4u2  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 5:28:08pm

re: #158 wozzablog

Canada hosts many of my kinsmen and has a great Scots heritage. Never been, want to.

DO
I highly recommend Nova Scotia, New Brusnwick, Montreal and one of the western provinces

164 Henchman 26  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 5:29:01pm

re: #158 wozzablog

Canada hosts many of my kinsmen and has a great Scots heritage. Never been, want to very badly though.

Well, if you ever get to central Canada, we can put you up for a couple of nights.

165 Wozza Matter?  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 5:29:34pm

re: #164 b_sharp

Well, if you ever get to central Canada, we can put you up for a couple of nights.

Most most kind. Thank you.

166 sattv4u2  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 5:29:54pm

re: #164 b_sharp

Well, if you ever get to central Canada, we can put you up for a couple of nights.

on a petard?
/

168 Henchman 26  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 5:30:45pm

re: #166 sattv4u2

on a petard?
/

All our petards are reserved for you.

169 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 5:30:47pm

re: #167 BigPapa

Next NPR CEO is longtime 'Sesame Street' honcho

Somebody better lock up the cookie in the break room.

170 Wozza Matter?  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 5:31:05pm

re: #163 sattv4u2

High accumulation of mine in London, Ont. Don't know why.

171 Wozza Matter?  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 5:34:03pm

G'night all.

Pleasant etceteras.

172 sattv4u2  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 5:34:13pm

re: #168 b_sharp

All our petards are reserved for you.

Petards or Retards?

I seem to attract both!!
//

173 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 5:35:14pm

Clan Johnston--Never unprepared.

It's official. My ancestors were Boy Scouts.

174 sattv4u2  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 5:35:21pm

re: #170 wozzablog

High accumulation of mine in London, Ont. Don't know why.

Nice area

I spent some time in Kitchener (nearby)

175 Henchman 26  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 5:36:56pm

re: #170 wozzablog

High accumulation of mine in London, Ont. Don't know why.

Interesting. The majority of members of my paternal family are in Sask. We had a fairly large German community 60 - 70 years ago.

176 Henchman 26  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 5:37:32pm

re: #172 sattv4u2

Petards or Retards?

I seem to attract both!!
//

You choose.

177 Atlas Fails  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 5:38:01pm

I've been amusing myself on various right wing echo chambers today, but this particular piece of derp is the best I've seen in a long time:

from Fox Nation's comment section (where else?)-What's the Legal Process For Targeted Killings Like al-Awlaki's?

This now makes it "legal" to target Tea Party activists...

178 Ben G. Hazi  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 5:43:21pm

re: #177 Atlas Fails

I've been amusing myself on various right wing echo chambers today, but this particular piece of derp is the best I've seen in a long time:

from Fox Nation's comment section (where else?)-What's the Legal Process For Targeted Killings Like al-Awlaki's?

This now makes it "legal" to target Tea Party activists...

Oh brother...

179 PhillyPretzel  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 5:44:54pm

re: #65 Alouette
Here is a credit union locator. [Link: www.creditunionsonline.com...]

180 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 5:45:06pm

re: #177 Atlas Fails

I've been amusing myself on various right wing echo chambers today, but this particular piece of derp is the best I've seen in a long time:

from Fox Nation's comment section (where else?)-What's the Legal Process For Targeted Killings Like al-Awlaki's?

Rwnj's have developed some really, uh, involved retribution fantasies against themselves.

I guess that kind of self-loathing and deathwishes are what result, when one has so many guilt feelings from unearned privileges.

181 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 5:46:59pm

re: #172 sattv4u2

Petards or Retards?

I seem to attract both!!
//

You attract petards?

182 sattv4u2  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 5:47:17pm

re: #181 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

You attract petards?

Of my own!

183 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 5:48:01pm

re: #182 sattv4u2

Of my own!

An unenviable spot.

184 sattv4u2  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 5:48:19pm

re: #183 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

An unenviable spot.

Especially where they are!

185 Ben G. Hazi  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 5:48:21pm

re: #180 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

Rwnj's have developed some really, uh, involved retribution fantasies against themselves.

I guess that kind of self-loathing and deathwishes are what result, when one has so many guilt feelings from unearned privileges.

They want to be a "martyr" for the cause, but lack the guts to earn it.

To me, most of them come off as a bunch of cowards.

186 boxhead  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 5:49:07pm

re: #27 Alexzander

I think he was trying to voice support for the Occupy Wall St protests, was generally condemned, and decided this wasn't the place for him anymore.

Hmmm I have tried as well.... probably not as much as Gus, but I tried here and other places and have found little support from, what I would call moderate blogs.

187 sattv4u2  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 5:49:08pm

sunnovabitch

188 Atlas Fails  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 5:49:52pm

re: #180 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

Rwnj's have developed some really, uh, involved retribution fantasies against themselves.

I guess that kind of self-loathing and deathwishes are what result, when one has so many guilt feelings from unearned privileges.

Teabaggers just aren't happy unless there's some imaginary threat or persecution. Make no mistake, these keyboard warriors would shit themselves and renounce everything they've ever said if they thought there was any real danger, this is just their way of feeling important. They know the president wouldn't waste his time tracking them down.

189 Killgore Trout  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 5:50:15pm

re: #180 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

Rwnj's have developed some really, uh, involved retribution fantasies against themselves.

I guess that kind of self-loathing and deathwishes are what result, when one has so many guilt feelings from unearned privileges.

At the risk of invoking the magic balance fairy....

Because the police have a conservative bias.

No I'm neither joking nor being sarcastic.

Persecution fantasies are all the rage these days.

190 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 5:50:33pm

re: #185 talon_262

They want to be a "martyr" for the cause, but lack the guts to earn it.

To me, most of them come off as a bunch of cowards.

That's how they come across to me, too. Most seething conservative whackjobs come across that way to me. I can't think of one that doesn't.

191 The Questionable Timing of a Flea  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 5:51:03pm

re: #182 sattv4u2

Of my own!

Well, you're very articulate for a suicidal castle gate.

192 Killgore Trout  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 5:51:57pm

Realists; The only ones who really know what's going on
Image: nOEY8.jpg

193 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 5:53:16pm

re: #189 Killgore Trout

At the risk of invoking the magic balance fairy...

Persecution fantasies are all the rage these days.

The tea party isn't persecuted in any way, and have a history of siding with the perps.

You also won't find any of your false persecution "lefties" with any national representation in two years, either. Not so for the tea party.

So yes, there's no point in calling up the MBF to the rescue.

194 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 5:54:01pm

re: #192 Killgore Trout

Realists; The only ones who really know what's going on
Image: nOEY8.jpg

Funny! I used to always say, when confronted with "half empty of half full"...glass of what?

195 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 5:55:54pm

re: #188 Atlas Fails

Teabaggers just aren't happy unless there's some imaginary threat or persecution. Make no mistake, these keyboard warriors would shit themselves and renounce everything they've ever said if they thought there was any real danger, this is just their way of feeling important. They know the president wouldn't waste his time tracking them down.

You may have just hit on what makes them the angriest.

Well that, and there's nothing they can do to alter that situation.

196 Ben G. Hazi  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 6:02:11pm

re: #195 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

You may have just hit on what makes them the angriest.

Well that, and there's nothing they can do to alter that situation.

It's a grownup version of a temper tantrum.

Makes me think of V'ger in Star Trek: The Motion Picture, when Spock advises Kirk that V'ger is a child and to treat it as such.

197 Atlas Fails  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 6:03:20pm

re: #195 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

You may have just hit on what makes them the angriest.

Well that, and there's nothing they can do to alter that situation.

Teabaggers are sad, impotent little bigots with a hate-based ideology and too much time on their hands. I look forward to the day when I can proudly tell my grandkids that I outspokenly denounced these clowns from day one.

198 PhillyPretzel  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 6:06:16pm

Good Night to my fellow Lizards.

199 goddamnedfrank  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 6:15:07pm

re: #189 Killgore Trout

At the risk of invoking the magic balance fairy...

Persecution fantasies are all the rage these days.

When the police allow liberals to get away with openly brandishing firearms at their protests then I'll believe that the playing field is being fairly refereed. Unarmed, unthreatening women getting pepper sprayed is hardly an equivalent response.

200 Killgore Trout  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 6:18:46pm

re: #199 goddamnedfrank

When the police allow liberals to get away with openly brandishing firearms at their protests then I'll believe that the playing field is being fairly refereed. Unarmed, unthreatening women get pepper sprayed is hardly an equivalent response.

Do you really not know why those wingnuts weren't arrested? I don't believe that for a second and won't insult you by telling you why. You can figure it out if you want to. Voluntary stupidity is always an option I suppose.

201 Killgore Trout  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 6:19:59pm

Since when did I become the resident wingnut on LGF?

202 sattv4u2  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 6:20:21pm

re: #200 Killgore Trout
Voluntary stupidity is always an option I suppose.

My wife signed me up for mine!

203 Varek Raith  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 6:21:34pm

re: #201 Killgore Trout

Since when did I become the resident wingnut on LGF?

Beats me, man.
Would you like a tri-corner hat???
/
:)

204 sattv4u2  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 6:22:22pm

re: #203 Varek Raith

Beats me, man.
Would you like a tri-corner hat???
/
:)

As long as they're all RIGHT angles!!!

205 Killgore Trout  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 6:22:40pm

re: #203 Varek Raith

Beats me, man.
Would you like a tri-corner hat???
/
:)

Do these pantaloons give me camel toe?

206 Varek Raith  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 6:22:58pm

re: #205 Killgore Trout

Do these pantaloons give me camel toe?

Lol.

207 sattv4u2  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 6:24:50pm

re: #205 Killgore Trout

Do these pantaloons give me camel toe?

Toe or Joe !?!?

[Link: www.vintageadbrowser.com...]

208 boxhead  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 6:26:48pm

I do not quite understand the, for the most part, complete dismissal of these protests. Whether it is the MSM, Democratic powers, even Fox. Here people say these actions will never amount to nothing because they are unfocused. OK, lets say some Liberal voice with cash funds "focus". Someone like Soros. If that were to happen, the Righties will howl how Soros is corrupting the political process. If the Democratic electorate steps up, again Fox types will rage and most Dems are eunuchs. So what we have are pretty much a group of people who feel they have no voice, are marginalized by the system, and are left to their own steam. So their response, IMHO, is brave, honest, and should be commended. And also should be supported. The reasons they have started are reasons that concern us all. By all, I mean the 99% of us that need to work to live, raise families, feel secure.

Reading in this thread that Gus has, or is considering leaving LGF over this issue is sad. I thought I knew the soul of LGF. I guess I was wrong.

BTW, if anyone knows how to get in touch with Gus, I would appreciate the info.

209 sattv4u2  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 6:27:08pm

re: #201 Killgore Trout

Since when did I become the resident wingnut on LGF?

You're finally out of the closet, huh!?!?
///

210 boxhead  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 6:28:55pm

re: #204 sattv4u2

As long as they're all RIGHT angles!!!

Impossibility!.... Much like the Righties hate for Science, I detect a dislike for geometry as well...

//

211 Obdicut  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 6:31:14pm

re: #201 Killgore Trout

I don't think you're a wingnut. Like I said the other night, I was pretty infuriated to see the WWP with tables at a protest against rape, given that the WWP supported regimes that used rape as a punishment.

I think the main reason the Tea Party types didn't get beaten down is they tended to be in parks, not occupying downtown Manhattan, and a lot of them are geriatric and you don't want to pepper spray a dude with an oxygen tank.

However: The guys protesting at Wall Street have a real, legitimate point. The financial industry did cause the meltdown, or at least create the conditions where a meltdown was inevitable. What's more, they're still doing it. We have some fiscal reform from Obama, but it's not enough, now with the GOP in charge of the house. Another meltdown can and will occur, unless we get serious about regulation.

The Tea Party, on the other hand, tends to protest things that are utterly fictional, that have no basis in reality. Or they simply attack Obama.

This rally was basically organized by the lunatic left, the ANSWER types, so kicking them out of it isn't really a possibility. But it is possible to overwhelm them and take it away from them. That involves participation, though.

I'm not really a protester sort of guy, and after seeing the bankers drinking champagne while looking at the protests I think they may actually really be enjoying this. Or rather, the bad ones will enjoy it and the good ones already know their own culpability.

Frank linked a site set up by some organizers, and I really, really didn't like it that they never said who they were. Astroturfing doesn't just come from big deep pockets; if you go to a rally and chant against the bankers and feel good but don't know that the rally was organized and sponsored by people who approved of Mao, that's another form of astroturfing.

212 Obdicut  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 6:34:47pm

re: #208 boxhead

I've got his email and I can ask him if he wants you to email him.

I think these protests could be effective. I think they may be quite effective in getting people generally riled up. They might prove good recruitment drives for the various organizations involved in them.

But in terms of actually effecting regulatory change, there's one thing that will help in that: taking control of the house away from the GOP and then putting intense pressure on the Democrats to actually do something.

I am not sure what the goal of Occupy Wall Street is. I have no idea what their message is. I understand they're angry at the banks; I am too. That's why I'm planning on campaigning for Elizabeth Warren.

I just am not sure what I'm supposed to take away from the protests. The Wisconsin one I supported full-throatedly. I understood the issue and supported the protesters and their allies. Here-- I don't know what it is they want.

213 Ben G. Hazi  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 6:35:20pm

re: #199 goddamnedfrank

When the police allow liberals to get away with openly brandishing firearms at their protests then I'll believe that the playing field is being fairly refereed. Unarmed, unthreatening women getting pepper sprayed is hardly an equivalent response.

re: #200 Killgore Trout

Do you really not know why those wingnuts weren't arrested? I don't believe that for a second and won't insult you by telling you why. You can figure it out if you want to. Voluntary stupidity is always an option I suppose.

Issues with some cops pulling a power trip aside, it seems to me that demographics is a main factor why, for all of the incendiary rhetoric and brandishing of weapons from some TPers, the incendiary rhetoric and mob action from some OWSers attacts much more attention (and arrests) by the cops.

TPers tend to be older, with more to lose, so they figure out what they can get away with and typically don't get into mob actions like OWS. The bad actors in OWS typically are young, stupid, and there to start shit, which attracts police attention and gets them skittish, leading to situations where some bonehead cops decide to pull mace on people who were not an imminent threat to them.

Not rationalizing any of it, just how it looks to me.

214 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 6:38:49pm

re: #213 talon_262

I don't think a cop fears someone who brings a lawn chair.

215 goddamnedfrank  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 6:39:32pm

re: #211 Obdicut

Frank linked a site set up by some organizers, and I really, really didn't like it that they never said who they were.

I did? When?

216 Obdicut  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 6:44:06pm

re: #215 goddamnedfrank

Yesterday, I think. I think it was you. It might have been two other guys.

This place:

[Link: www.occupytogether.org...]

This claim:

We have no agenda other than to provide people with information about the events and actions happening in their area in solidarity and support of those that currently Occupy Wall St. Our political and social beliefs will remain neutral for this cause; this is not about us, this is about the movement. The only thing we will promote openly is peaceful demonstrations.

Is a dodge of the issue. And anyone who won't say who they are just earns my suspicion.

I will never claim to be non-partisan or neutral, because I think it's goddamn impossible, not to mention undesirable.

217 boxhead  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 6:44:13pm

re: #212 Obdicut

I've got his email and I can ask him if he wants you to email him.

I think these protests could be effective. I think they may be quite effective in getting people generally riled up. They might prove good recruitment drives for the various organizations involved in them.

But in terms of actually effecting regulatory change, there's one thing that will help in that: taking control of the house away from the GOP and then putting intense pressure on the Democrats to actually do something.

I am not sure what the goal of Occupy Wall Street is. I have no idea what their message is. I understand they're angry at the banks; I am too. That's why I'm planning on campaigning for Elizabeth Warren.

I just am not sure what I'm supposed to take away from the protests. The Wisconsin one I supported full-throatedly. I understood the issue and supported the protesters and their allies. Here-- I don't know what it is they want.

I think the protesters just want their grievances championed by someone. The fact that the media ignores them does not help. The big Banks appear to have taken our candy, and piggy bank without paying the price. People feel powerless.... If media would report on these protests, it would help the cause. If media would report on it, their reasons would not be so difficult to find.

Please ask Gus. I did send him a tweet though.

218 sattv4u2  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 6:44:21pm

re: #215 goddamnedfrank

I did? When?

Wha,,, you think you're the ONLY "frank" in the world??

"You're so vain, you probably think that post was about you ,,,"

//

219 Varek Raith  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 6:45:20pm

re: #214 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I don't think a cop fears someone who brings a lawn chair.

Image: dewalt-auto-nail-gun-demotivational-poster-1226929644.jpg

220 Ben G. Hazi  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 6:45:28pm

re: #214 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I don't think a cop fears someone who brings a lawn chair.

Or comes in a Hoveround...

221 Ben G. Hazi  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 6:46:26pm
222 Achilles Tang  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 6:46:48pm

re: #186 boxhead

Hmmm I have tried as well... probably not as much as Gus, but I tried here and other places and have found little support from, what I would call moderate blogs.

Moderates like rational objectives and shy from pure emotions, like Tea Partiers. Perhaps the similarity is too close for many and Gus, in spite of his many rational qualities, is too driven by emotion.

There are many here who have had disdain expressed by some, usually only some, yet are still around.

I like Gus, leftist sounding from time to time or not. Hopefully he will have a few drinks and come back here to the real world.

223 boxhead  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 6:47:10pm

re: #214 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I don't think a cop fears someone who brings a lawn chair.

What about when guns were brought?

224 goddamnedfrank  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 6:47:25pm

re: #216 Obdicut

Yesterday, I think. I think it was you. It might have been two other guys.

This place:

[Link: www.occupytogether.org...]

This claim:

Is a dodge of the issue. And anyone who won't say who they are just earns my suspicion.

I will never claim to be non-partisan or neutral, because I think it's goddamn impossible, not to mention undesirable.

Yeah, that wasn't me. I don't post all that often and a search of my comments confirms this. That site isn't even in my browser history.

225 jaunte  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 6:47:37pm

Tea party sponsors trading with Iran:

A Bloomberg Markets investigation has found that Koch Industries -- in addition to being involved in improper payments to win business in Africa, India and the Middle East -- has sold millions of dollars of petrochemical equipment to Iran, a country the U.S. identifies as a sponsor of global terrorism.
The ‘Koch Method’
Internal company documents show that the company made those sales through foreign subsidiaries, thwarting a U.S. trade ban. Koch Industries units have also rigged prices with competitors, lied to regulators and repeatedly run afoul of environmental regulations, resulting in five criminal convictions since 1999 in the U.S. and Canada.
[Link: www.bloomberg.com...]

"The company tells all of its employees around the world that its top two values, which it calls Guiding Principles, are integrity and compliance."

226 Obdicut  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 6:48:20pm

re: #224 goddamnedfrank

Yeah, that wasn't me. I don't post all that often and a search of my comments confirms this. That site isn't even in my browser history.

Sorry. I wasn't implying you'd linked to it saying "this was great!" by the way, just that someone had linked to it and I wanted to give them credit for finding it, since everyone is asking "What's this stuff all about?"

Sorry for the confusion.

227 BishopX  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 6:49:30pm

re: #215 goddamnedfrank

I'll take this opportunity to link spam then, since I was planning on anyways.

NYC general assembly - This is the webpage for the organizing committee on the ground. They post minutes. Read them.

OccupyWallSt is the website set up to coordinate the protests. Adbusters put out the PR release calling for the occupation July 13, the site was registered July 14.

Occupy together was set up several weeks into the protest to help it spread past NYC. I don't know who is running it.

228 Obdicut  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 6:49:56pm

re: #225 jaunte

Heh. The Koch guys sell crap to Iran and are the darlings of the GOP. Awesome.

And the Koch guys use their money to support the GOP. So some of that money comes from Iran.

Ah, the GOP. Is there a level of hypocrisy it hasn't yet achieved?

229 boxhead  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 6:50:23pm

re: #225 jaunte

Tea party sponsors trading with Iran:

"The company tells all of its employees around the world that its top two values, which it calls Guiding Principles, are integrity and compliance."

Lets see how much attention this gets....

230 Ben G. Hazi  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 6:50:34pm

re: #223 boxhead

What about when guns were brought?

As I said, the TPers tend to be gun nuts and, by and large, figured out how to bring their guns to some of their rallies. I assume that some of them found out how to do this within their local laws; I certainly don't agree with it, but as long as they were within the law, my only answer is that those laws may need to change.

231 jaunte  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 6:52:16pm

re: #228 Obdicut

Looks like Koch pr flacks are on it:
Koch brothers spooked by forthcoming story

Anonymous sources try to discredit Bloomberg article on Koch Industries before it's even published

232 Obdicut  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 6:52:27pm

re: #227 BishopX

And Adbusters, like way too many leftist advocacy groups, is tiresomely anti-Israel and perpetuated the "Jews have too much control!" smear.

It makes me leery seeing a group with anti-semitic actions in the past going after bankers, I gotta say.

233 boxhead  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 6:52:39pm

re: #230 talon_262

As I said, the TPers tend to be gun nuts and, by and large, figured out how to bring their guns to some of their rallies. I assume that some of them found out how to do this within their local laws; I certainly don't agree with it, but as long as they were within the law, my only answer is that those laws may need to change.

The Wall Street protesters brought nothing that should evoke fear from cops. Only passion and honesty. I guess that was too much.

234 Achilles Tang  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 6:52:40pm

re: #225 jaunte

Tea party sponsors trading with Iran:

"The company tells all of its employees around the world that its top two values, which it calls Guiding Principles, are integrity and compliance."

Integrity to what and compliance with what?

235 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 6:53:06pm

So Kristof's plan is to add on more taxes? Great, that'll really stimulate growth and innovation!

/dripping

236 jaunte  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 6:53:19pm

re: #234 Naso Tang

Eyewash, apparently.

237 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 6:54:00pm

re: #232 Obdicut

And Adbusters, like way too many leftist advocacy groups, is tiresomely anti-Israel and perpetuated the "Jews have too much control!" smear.

It makes me leery seeing a group with anti-semitic actions in the past going after bankers, I gotta say.

Quite Concur.

238 Obdicut  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 6:54:35pm

re: #235 Dark_Falcon

Do you understand what the purpose of the taxes would be, Dark, or did you just see the word "Tax" and your knee shot up and slammed the underside of the desk?

239 sattv4u2  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 6:55:01pm

K Kiddies

The Patriots won
The Yankees lost
12+ hours at work and I didn't fubar anything!!

All in all, a productive day

So ,, on that note, the long quiet drive home beckons!

240 Achilles Tang  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 6:55:05pm

re: #236 jaunte

Eyewash, apparently.

I was thinking triple ply toilet paper.

241 BishopX  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 6:55:29pm

re: #235 Dark_Falcon

You want to careful of inovation within the financial services sector. Every genius working on tax shelters isn't working on curing cancer, fighting global warming or building anything useful.

242 ProGunLiberal  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 6:55:54pm

Hey, look what popped up in my FB feed.

Occupy Norman (University of Oklahoma)

243 sattv4u2  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 6:56:33pm

re: #239 sattv4u2

K Kiddies

The Patriots won
The Yankees lost
12+ hours at work and I didn't fubar anything!!

All in all, a productive day

So ,, on that note, the long quiet drive home beckons!

Oh ,, and the Jets are losing!!!

:)

244 Achilles Tang  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 6:57:57pm

re: #241 BishopX

You want to careful of inovation within the financial services sector.

The greatest innovators in finance were probably the people at Enron..well maybe not greatest, but biggest for sure.

245 BishopX  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 6:58:35pm

re: #232 Obdicut

And Adbusters, like way too many leftist advocacy groups, is tiresomely anti-Israel and perpetuated the "Jews have too much control!" smear.

It makes me leery seeing a group with anti-semitic actions in the past going after bankers, I gotta say.

I'm not endorsing them, I'm attempting to move past the "who are these smucks?" stage of discourse.

246 Obdicut  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 6:59:54pm

re: #245 BishopX

Oh, I wasn't implying you were. Sorry. I'm not communicating very well at the moment. I went on a long walk, had some Fernet, and met a couple of really nifty people; I used my my socialization quotient for the day.

247 ProGunLiberal  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 7:01:13pm

re: #242 ProLifeLiberal

One of my FB friends is supporting starting something here.

Being in OK, I doubt this goes anywhere.

248 Varek Raith  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 7:01:30pm

re: #246 Obdicut

Oh, I wasn't implying you were. Sorry. I'm not communicating very well at the moment. I went on a long walk, had some Fernet, and met a couple of really nifty people; I used my my socialization quotient for the day.

And your grammar quotient.
:P

249 BishopX  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 7:03:09pm

re: #244 Naso Tang

The greatest innovators in finance were probably the people at Enron..well maybe not greatest, but biggest for sure.

Enron was peanuts. Look at the mortgage industry. Look at high frequency trading. Look at the happiness index funds. There are industries built around obscure stock exchange rules that dwarf Enron.

250 Obdicut  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 7:03:25pm

re: #248 Varek Raith

Image: grammar_time.jpg

Yeah. Time for bed for me.

251 BishopX  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 7:04:44pm

re: #246 Obdicut

I got you. As much as I love you folks, if the only people I socialize with all day are online, I know I'm doing something wrong.

252 boxhead  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 7:07:35pm

re: #232 Obdicut

And Adbusters, like way too many leftist advocacy groups, is tiresomely anti-Israel and perpetuated the "Jews have too much control!" smear.

It makes me leery seeing a group with anti-semitic actions in the past going after bankers, I gotta say.

Are these the same people?

253 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 7:12:06pm

re: #238 Obdicut

Do you understand what the purpose of the taxes would be, Dark, or did you just see the word "Tax" and your knee shot up and slammed the underside of the desk?

Yes, I understand the stated purposes of the proposed taxes. To those purposes, I answer with the following points:

1: A transaction tax imposed on financial firms will be promptly passed on to customers in the same way most taxes on businesses are. Thus the proposed tax's greatest effect will be to indirectly increase the tax burden on the public.

2: On the matter of "'carried interest and 'founders’ stock'” taxation, I offer no objection on this point at this time. This one does appear to be a reasonable idea. I'm not Grover Norquist, so I could accept it.

3: A "bank tax" would again be at least partially passed on to customers and would also potentially subject investment institutions to having their tax rates set based on the decision of government regulators as to what is and is not 'reasonable'. Such decisions by said regulators might not even be driven by economic concerns, but rather by the political views of the administration in power. Such taxes offer a large opportunity for government to interfere in the private sector yet more.

3.1: Lastly, the idea of banks "paying for their own cleanup" is risible in my eyes. What will instead happen is that Congress will just spend the additional monies brought in by such a "bank tax" (or at best use it to pay off debt) and then get caught in bind if a bailout is needed.

254 Atlas Fails  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 7:14:56pm

re: #212 Obdicut

I am not sure what the goal of Occupy Wall Street is. I have no idea what their message is. I understand they're angry at the banks; I am too. That's why I'm planning on campaigning for Elizabeth Warren.

Thank you! I strongly urge others who want to make a difference to campaign for progressive candidates on state and national levels.

255 Achilles Tang  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 7:15:02pm

re: #249 BishopX

Enron was peanuts. Look at the mortgage industry. Look at high frequency trading. Look at the happiness index funds. There are industries built around obscure stock exchange rules that dwarf Enron.

What they, financial institutions, did was just what Perry would label a Ponzi scheme, correctly.

Enron however led the way by inventing deliberate accounting rules that created value out of nothing, without suckering individual speculators into something that had substance, like real estate; or tulips before that.

Disclaimer: I am not an accountant.

256 ProGunLiberal  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 7:23:32pm

re: #253 Dark_Falcon

At some point, the clowns who got us into this mess must pay. We can't act like little serfs fearful of punishment from greedy lords.

It's time for a change. Reform the United States into a Nordic Style Social Democratic nation.

Defeating the State's Rights ideology needs to be important as well.

257 BishopX  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 7:27:26pm

re: #253 Dark_Falcon

Yes, I understand the stated purposes of the proposed taxes. To those purposes, I answer with the following points:

1: A transaction tax imposed on financial firms will be promptly passed on to customers in the same way most taxes on businesses are. Thus the proposed tax's greatest effect will be to indirectly increase the tax burden on the public.

You do realize that Financial services is a very, very competitive industry right? If there are two investment strategies which promise an equal return but have different tax obligations, then the less taxed option will become the industry standard. A tax on certain types of business will shift investing practices without increasing costs terribly. It also won't raise much money.

3: A "bank tax" would again be at least partially passed on to customers and would also potentially subject investment institutions to having their tax rates set based on the decision of government regulators as to what is and is not 'reasonable'. Such decisions by said regulators might not even be driven by economic concerns, but rather by the political views of the administration in power. Such taxes offer a large opportunity for government to interfere in the private sector yet more.

This isn't any different than any other form of tax. Do you really think the teahadis opposition to progressive income taxation is a rational economic decision?

3.1: Lastly, the idea of banks "paying for their own cleanup" is risible in my eyes. What will instead happen is that Congress will just spend the additional monies brought in by such a "bank tax" (or at best use it to pay off debt) and then get caught in bind if a bailout is needed.

There is such a thing as a separate funds within the government. The FDIC or the gas tax are both good examples of this. Funds collected through both of these institutions don't get passed into the general fund, but rather are spent on coverings deposits in failed banks and highway maintenance respectively. Assuming that bank cleanups are run by a quasi-independent government body there is no reason to think that the funds from the bank tax would go anywhere near congress.

258 boxhead  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 7:29:12pm

re: #256 ProLifeLiberal

At some point, the clowns who got us into this mess must pay. We can't act like little serfs.

It's time for a change. Reform the United States into a Nordic Style Social Democratic nation.

Defeating the State's Rights ideology needs to be important as well.

I know we talked about this before, but not all States Rights are a negative. I am talking about areas that do not cause infringements upon the Rights of others.

259 ProGunLiberal  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 7:31:56pm

re: #258 boxhead

Well, after seeing the actions of certain states in regards to Gay Marriage, Abortion, Race Issues, and various other things, I see State's Rights as a negative. The states must lose a large chunk of their power.

For example, there needs to be a single unified standard on Science, Math and English education through the Entire US.

To put it simply, I do not trust the states with their power. They have already abused it.

260 jaunte  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 7:32:43pm

re: #65 Alouette

Bank of America has just announced they are going to start charging a fee on their debit cards. WTFF? That's really sticking it to the frugal, those of us that have cut up our credit cards and live on what we have.

SUCKS!

What bank should I transfer my hard-earned, worked-for money to?

I'm sure that BoA has carefully calculated they can get most depositors to pay another $60 a year rather than be inconvenienced by having to set up a new banking relationship. I hope everyone who has a BoA account now will go to the trouble to prove them wrong.

261 ProGunLiberal  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 7:33:49pm

Now, I wonder how this Koch Brothers selling to Iran will work out.

262 BishopX  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 7:35:15pm

re: #259 ProLifeLiberal

Speaking from a Massachusetts perspective here, please don't lock us in with the rest of the nation. We already had to dumb down our curricula to get federal money, I don't want to have to make it permanent.

263 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 7:35:33pm

re: #257 BishopX

You do realize that Financial services is a very, very competitive industry right? If there are two investment strategies which promise an equal return but have different tax obligations, then the less taxed option will become the industry standard. A tax on certain types of business will shift investing practices without increasing costs terribly. It also won't raise much money.T

Your response just made my point. I don't want the government directing investments like that. I'd rather deal with the occasional risk of severe recession than give government that power. I believe that government is sure to abuse it, and that it will encourage banks and investing institutions to lobby Congress to write the rules to favor individual institutions. Such policies will change the financial sector from favoring business entrepreneurship to favoring political entrepreneurship. That is a better idea. People should instead learn to live with the realities of the business cycle, even when those realities hurt them. Because that kind of massive additional government involvement will make things far worse in the long run.

264 makeitstop  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 7:35:38pm

re: #231 jaunte

Looks like Koch pr flacks are on it:
Koch brothers spooked by forthcoming story

Going after the head of the snake. I like that.

265 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 7:36:51pm

re: #259 ProLifeLiberal

Then your problem is with the Constitution itself, and I will fight like Hell to see that your desired changes to are not made.

266 palomino  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 7:39:15pm

re: #263 Dark_Falcon

Your response just made my point. I don't want the government directing investments like that. I'd rather deal with the occasional risk of severe recession than give government that power. I believe that government is sure to abuse it, and that it will encourage banks and investing institutions to lobby Congress to write the rules to favor individual institutions. Such policies will change the financial sector from favoring business entrepreneurship to favoring political entrepreneurship. That is a better idea. People should instead learn to live with the realities of the business cycle, even when those realities hurt them. Because that kind of massive additional government involvement will make things far worse in the long run.

So you trust the banks to self-regulate? How has that worked out in US history...from the Great Depression to the S&L debacle of the 80's to the financial meltdown of 2008 (yeah, Fannie and Freddie were part of the problem, but so were private financial institutions to at least as much extent)

267 BishopX  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 7:41:21pm

re: #263 Dark_Falcon

Government already directs investments like that. There is a reason that GE has a 0% tax rate and it isn't because they're a religious institution or non-profit.

268 jaunte  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 7:43:05pm

re: #264 makeitstop

Did you see this part of the Bloomberg piece? Totally shameless.


Engineer Challenged Sales

Every single chance they had to do business with Iran, or anyone else, they did,” Bentu, 46, says.

Bentu, a German engineer who earned his master’s degree in chemical engineering from Montana State University in Bozeman in 1990, joined Koch-Glitsch in 2001. His duties included drawing up bids for potential buyers of the company’s distillation equipment, which is used in making fuels, fertilizers, detergents and other products.

Bentu says he had been working at Koch-Glitsch in Viernheim, about 80 kilometers (50 miles) south of Frankfurt, for two months when he first saw an order destined for Iran. Concerned that the transaction might run afoul of U.S. law, Bentu asked his manager about it, he says. Bentu says his boss told him not to worry, that the company’s U.S. lawyers made sure the deals with Iran were legal.

U.S. companies have been banned from trading with Iran since 1995, when President Bill Clinton declared it a threat to national security. Iran supports Iraqi militants and Taliban fighters as well as terrorist groups, including Hamas and Hezbollah, according to the U.S. State Department.[Link: www.bloomberg.com...]

269 ProGunLiberal  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 7:47:25pm

re: #262 BishopX

The feds need to reform that then. Into a program where it is something like "This Point and Above."

re: #265 Dark_Falcon

The Constitution is not perfect. It was written by imperfect (though brilliant) men. In addition, no meaningful change in the structure of government has occurred since it was put into force. Oh sure, there's been parts attached to the government bureaucracy, but at the bottom of it is the 4th Oldest Government on Earth. It's age is beginning to show, and meaningful change is needed.

In addition, my reading on history came to the conclusion that, as long as State's remain this powerful, there will continue to be issues with Human Rights. Time to put the Neo-Confederates to bed once and for all, and stop the primitive states in the Union (you know which ones) from continuing hamper our development.

270 BishopX  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 7:53:26pm

re: #269 ProLifeLiberal

The issue with educational standards is that it's really hard to get a linear scale. What year to you teach algebra? Do you start with biology or earth science freshman year of high school? Those question's don't have numerical answers. Also, testing this kind of stuff well is really, really hard. So hard I think that most of the people who try fail miserably.

How much have you read about the 1890s-1930s and the role the federal government played in dealing with human rights?

I don't see the federal government as being any better than the states on average.

271 Ben G. Hazi  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 7:55:15pm

re: #268 jaunte

Did you see this part of the Bloomberg piece? Totally shameless.

As much as I'd like to see the Koch-suckers squirm and get called to Capitol Hill to answer for this, I'd doubt they ever will. Say what you will, they're not stupid; I'm sure they put as many bureaucratic layers in their companies as they could between them and whoever sold, packed, and invoiced the illicit shipments to Iranian buyers that they have sufficient plausible deniability. That, coupled with the influence they've bought with political contributions, makes it highly unlikely that much will come out of the Bloomberg story.

272 Varek Raith  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 7:55:18pm

re: #270 BishopX

The issue with educational standards is that it's really hard to get a linear scale. What year to you teach algebra? Do you start with biology or earth science freshman year of high school? Those question's don't have numerical answers. Also, testing this kind of stuff well is really, really hard. So hard I think that most of the people who try fail miserably.

How much have you read about the 1890s-1930s and the role the federal government played in dealing with human rights?

I don't see the federal government as being any better than the states on average.

We can start with by ending this nonsense of letting states rewrite history and impose their religious dogma on students.

273 jaunte  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 7:57:06pm

re: #271 talon_262

I'm sure the top managers think they conformed to the letter of the law, but there are probably some US citizens among their employees who are sweating this one out.

274 boxhead  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 7:58:45pm

Here is a article talking about goals and such of the protesters..

[Link: techpresident.com...]

275 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 7:59:41pm

re: #269 ProLifeLiberal

And, of course, you will decide which states are the primitive ones?

276 ProGunLiberal  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 8:02:05pm

re: #270 BishopX

Yes, I see some issues with implementation with implementation of education standards on a national level. However, when at the national level, we gain several advantages, namely a smaller chance that Religious Radicals can turn the school system in a state into a Madrassa-lite.

As for the period you are speaking of, you are correct that the Feds were bad in that situation. However, it was ultimately the Feds who forced change in Racial Policies as well.

If we went with you and your side's logic, Jim Crow would still be here. The states cannot be trusted on Human Rights. They must lose all powers relating to that.

277 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 8:02:20pm

re: #258 boxhead

I know we talked about this before, but not all States Rights are a negative. I am talking about areas that do not cause infringements upon the Rights of others.

Sadly, this is precisely what "states rights", i.e. state autonomy within a federation, has become infamous for from the outset.

It does not have to mean "special rights for conservative whites". But basically that's what it's come to mean. That's why they endorse it so heavily.

278 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 8:03:51pm

re: #269 ProLifeLiberal

I disagree, vehemently. This is one thing where you and I are in conflict. I'll remain civil, and I'm sure you will too, but let's not kid ourselves. There is no compromise between the two of us on this issue. I understand why you feel the way you do, but I will never agree with you. Your idea is the death of Federalism, the death of conservatism, and in my opinion the death of the Constitution. As such, I will oppose it to my last dying breath.

279 BishopX  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 8:05:35pm

re: #278 Dark_Falcon

Which is more important to you, American or the Constitution?

280 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 8:06:01pm

re: #269 ProLifeLiberal

The feds need to reform that then. Into a program where it is something like "This Point and Above."

re: #265 Dark_Falcon

Time to put the Neo-Confederates to bed once and for all, and stop the primitive states in the Union (you know which ones) from continuing hamper our development.

Yeah but that's never going to happen on the whites-first right. Thinking they are going to put those people to bed is counterintuitive; the neo-Confederate states rights bigots speak for much of the GOP constituency.

This is why the tea party carries the influence it does, and attracts the deep pockets the way it does. It did not get this way with them overnight.

281 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 8:08:12pm

re: #278 Dark_Falcon

I disagree, vehemently. This is one thing where you and I are in conflict. I'll remain civil, and I'm sure you will too, but let's not kid ourselves. There is no compromise between the two of us on this issue. I understand why you feel the way you do, but I will never agree with you. Your idea is the death of Federalism, the death of conservatism, and in my opinion the death of the Constitution. As such, I will oppose it to my last dying breath.

Oh my. Such high drama.

Conservatism is on its own death drive, allowing, for instance, the states rights bigot contingent to speak for them. Start an imaginary online war over it if you must, but that won't end the problem.

282 BishopX  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 8:08:23pm

re: #276 ProLifeLiberal

I don't really have a side here... I just don't trust either the federal or state governments very much. Allowing them to fight about this stuff seems like a acceptable way of working out policy.

If you could redesign the federal government to be more accountable I might be okay with a wholesale transfer of power, but thats a really high bar.

283 ProGunLiberal  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 8:08:28pm

re: #275 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

That's simple. It's the states that rank the lowest on the HDI scale. States like Mississippi, Alabama, and Louisiana. States like Texas, who replaced Jefferson with Calvin. Or Arizona, and there assorted atrocities against logic.

re: #278 Dark_Falcon

And your side is the death of Human Rights.

While my anger over Oslo and Utoya has dissipated, I still hold the conviction that the Republicans must pay for the attack they encouraged through rhetoric (as seen in that evil manifesto). And the Republican-allied Progress Party in Norway suffered staggering losses in the election last month, so I'm obviously not the only one thinking this.

284 boxhead  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 8:08:45pm

re: #278 Dark_Falcon

Why is it wrong for a Country to require companies operating within the Country and can have such a drastic effect on the Country to behave in a certain fashion? Such as making sure these companies cannot act in a fashion detrimental to the Country in order to benefit themselves?

285 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 8:10:33pm

re: #279 BishopX

The latter. The Constitution is America in my way of thinking.

286 ProGunLiberal  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 8:11:13pm

re: #282 BishopX

I don't want complete wholesale shifting of power. I just want the states to lose power over anything resembling Human Rights and Education.

In addition, I want the Civil Rights Act to be modified to cover the Entire Nation in terms of voter protection and otherwise. Being restricted to the south is causing some issues.

287 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 8:12:24pm

re: #283 ProLifeLiberal

re: #278 Dark_Falcon

And your side is the death of Human Rights.

While my anger over Oslo and Utoya has dissipated, I still hold the conviction that the Republicans must pay for the attack they encouraged through rhetoric (as seen in that evil manifesto). And the Republican-allied Progress Party in Norway suffered staggering losses in the election last month, so I'm obviously not the only one thinking this.

Breivik's whites-first attitude was copy/pasted from the whites-first conservatives in the US, who in turn have been expressing those same attitudes for generations.

These are people who believe only they are privy to any kind of "rights". The rest of us, in their imaginary universe, are only privy to second-class citizenship. Else, they cry oppression, and go kill people out of rage.

288 BishopX  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 8:14:05pm

re: #285 Dark_Falcon

The latter. The Constitution is America in my way of thinking.

The the Articles of Confederation weren't America?

The constitution was never intended to be a permanent document (hence the ability to amend it), at some point it will have to be altered. Why not now?

289 ProGunLiberal  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 8:14:46pm

re: #285 Dark_Falcon

At this point however, the Constitution is showing its age. The government has become massively dysfunctional, and is now giving cover to bigots and would-be tyrants. The holes in the constitution need to be sealed.

Let's not forget, on of the 3 governments older than ours nearly fell this year. And one of the others is as dysfunctional as our own.

A Constitution written for the 18th Century needs change for the 21st Century.

290 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 8:15:07pm

re: #285 Dark_Falcon

The latter. The Constitution is America in my way of thinking.

The Constitution is not a static document. If it were, it would be perfectly "constitutional" to shove people to the back of the bus, as conservative rule implemented after Reconstruction and the SCOTUS ruled in 1896.

And in the case of more recent gains like the ADA, it would also be perfectly "constitutional" for companies to keep people from even getting ON the bus, at all.

291 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 8:16:17pm

re: #278 Dark_Falcon

And your side is the death of Human Rights.

While my anger over Oslo and Utoya has dissipated, I still hold the conviction that the Republicans must pay for the attack they encouraged through rhetoric (as seen in that evil manifesto). And the Republican-allied Progress Party in Norway suffered staggering losses in the election last month, so I'm obviously not the only one thinking this.

You say that the US Republican Party encouraged the vile acts of the terrorist Brevik? That's a outright lie, and shame on you for saying it. That murderous scum approvingly quoted Naomi Klein as many times as he quoted Mark Steyn, yet it is only Steyn who has been accused of "encouraging" Brevik. The truth is that no mainstream person in North America encouraged that rampage in any way, and to say they did is slander!

With that last remark of yours, consider yourself on my shit list.

292 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 8:16:57pm

And no I'm going to log off for the night before I lose my temper.

293 BishopX  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 8:17:29pm

re: #292 Dark_Falcon

Enjoy.

294 boxhead  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 8:17:37pm

re: #292 Dark_Falcon

And no I'm going to log off for the night before I lose my temper.

Can I be on it too? :)

//

295 ProGunLiberal  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 8:18:10pm

re: #291 Dark_Falcon

Maybe I am a bit hyperbolic on it.

However, have the lunatics like Limbaugh and the others cooled down since Utoya? No.

In fact, they have gotten worse.

I'm going with Norwegian Public Opinion on this one.

296 Spocomptonite  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 8:20:36pm

I've been kind of out of the loop lately (OT: started cycling again last week for the first time since my accident; yesterday I rode 95 miles) so I have no idea what this OWS is, but the technoviking video just pops into my head and that's what I'm imagining was going on on the Brooklyn Bridge. Because that would be so awesome.

297 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 8:23:08pm

re: #291 Dark_Falcon

You say that the US Republican Party encouraged the vile acts of the terrorist Brevik?

I did not see him say that.

But it's a fact that Breivik's manifesto is parallel to third position conservatism in the US, and that most of it comes out of the mouth of American conservative bigots.

That murderous scum approvingly quoted Naomi Klein as many times as he quoted Mark Steyn

Quote, and page number, please.

298 boxhead  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 8:25:16pm

re: #296 Spocomptonite

I've been kind of out of the loop lately (OT: started cycling again last week for the first time since my accident; yesterday I rode 95 miles) so I have no idea what this OWS is, but the technoviking video just pops into my head and that's what I'm imagining was going on on the Brooklyn Bridge. Because that would be so awesome.

OWS = Occupy Wall Street

technoviking = hilarious

299 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 8:26:45pm

re: #295 ProLifeLiberal

Maybe I am a bit hyperbolic on it.

D_F is lying about Klein vs Steyn.

I'm sure it's not intentional (///) but he also left out the count number of approving quotes of Robert Spencer, for instance.

However, have the lunatics like Limbaugh and the others cooled down since Utoya? No.

In fact, they have gotten worse.

We ain't seen nothin', yet.

300 ProGunLiberal  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 8:32:15pm

re: #299 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

I don't think people understand just how tipsy the US is right now.

We have a 9.1% Unemployment Rate (The number pre-revolution in Egypt was 9.2%, and only slightly higher in Syria)

The Youth Unemployment is very high, not dissimilar to many MENA states.

In addition, we also have a large number of Disaffected Minorities and Groups, like in Libya or Syria.

And finally, we have very public corruption and concentration of money towards the top.

Combined with a near-Pakistani Political Landscape (one party is Modernity, while the other party is Hyper-Traditional) and we have a recipe for something. Not sure what yet.

301 jaunte  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 8:38:04pm

re: #297 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

He mentions her once on pages 703-704, but it isn't complimentary.

302 makeitstop  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 8:43:50pm

re: #301 jaunte

He mentions her once on pages 703-704, but it isn't complimentary.

DF must have heard one of those 'friends' he 'trusts' say the Stein/Steyn thing and thought it bore repeating.

303 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 8:46:52pm

re: #300 ProLifeLiberal

Well, all I can say is, just as I disagree with OWS comparing themselves to Arab Spring for various reasons, I think it's a much different situation there than it is here.

For one, Arab Spring is a protest against dictatorial governments. Though we have a nasty history of dictatorial, states rights/white conservative government that would indeed kill you for protesting here, that's not what OWS is about. Otherwise, they would be occupying government buildings, not Wall Street.

2- Many of those governments/dictatorships are propped up or given a pass by the US

3- Some of those stats you cite, high unemployment, etc., have been the norm in states-righted communities for generations

4- Bringing attention (again) to corporate corruption is the point of action where OWS can have an impact. I think they have succeeded in that, at least for the moment. I also don't forsee this group, as KT does, somehow becoming a Democratic tea party.

I think that's a pipe dream for both the anti-Obama left and GOTP '12, which doesn't have ideas to run on, themselves, but that's just a personal view.

304 reine.de.tout  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 8:48:38pm

re: #65 Alouette

Bank of America has just announced they are going to start charging a fee on their debit cards. WTFF? That's really sticking it to the frugal, those of us that have cut up our credit cards and live on what we have.

SUCKS!

What bank should I transfer my hard-earned, worked-for money to?

I don't do business with a bank and haven't for 30 years. I belong to a credit union. No fee credit cards, debit cards, earn interest on the avg daily balance in my checking account. If you are a regular human being, a good Credit Union is the way to go. Forget the banks.

305 prairiefire  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 8:51:33pm

re: #244 Naso Tang

The greatest innovators in finance were probably the people at Enron..well maybe not greatest, but biggest for sure.

Innovators?? That shell game has been around a looooooong time.

306 ProGunLiberal  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 8:58:09pm

re: #303 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

You make valid points, and in the short term, you are probably correct.

However, this situation is untenable in the long term.

307 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 9:09:46pm

re: #256 ProLifeLiberal

At some point, the clowns who got us into this mess must pay. We can't act like little serfs fearful of punishment from greedy lords.

If we don't want to act like serfs, we need to not act like serfs.

Serfs run around with pitchforks to see fear in the lords' eyes for a few days.

Free people write legislation and pass it.

308 FQ Kafir  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 9:55:49pm

The problem with a financial transaction tax is that you will, by the nature of the tax, have less financial transactions. That is what happens when you tax something.

What follows from fewer financial transactions?

309 boxhead  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 11:36:17pm

For those saying they are not sure why these protests are happening, check out the below link...

Declaration of the Occupation of New York City
by NYC General Assembly


[Link: www.commondreams.org...]

310 Conn. Lawyer  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 11:59:26pm

Maybe Mr. Kristoff is too young to remember, but New York used to have a tax on financial transactions - a tax on every sale of securities. New York was forced to give up this tax because it just drove business out of New York. No one needs to trade securities on the NYSE and OTC derivatives can be traded anywhere or nowhere (i.e., only in cyberspace). If the US were to adopt a tax on financial transactions, the result would be the same: hello, Hong Kong, goodbye NY and Chicago.

His other suggestions range from very good (taxing carried interest as ordinary income on the date it vests) to OK (requiring big banks to have more capital). What would be better than higher capital requirements would be eliminating the role of the Government as lender of last resort to troubled financial institutions - i.e., no more bailouts.

311 kirkspencer  Mon, Oct 3, 2011 6:25:46am

re: #310 Conn. Lawyer

Maybe Mr. Kristoff is too young to remember, but New York used to have a tax on financial transactions - a tax on every sale of securities. New York was forced to give up this tax because it just drove business out of New York. No one needs to trade securities on the NYSE and OTC derivatives can be traded anywhere or nowhere (i.e., only in cyberspace). If the US were to adopt a tax on financial transactions, the result would be the same: hello, Hong Kong, goodbye NY and Chicago.
(snip)

In a word, no. New York was not forced to give up the tax; it still exists.

And I notice that New York, the NYSE, and the NASDAQ are still thriving.

312 kirkspencer  Mon, Oct 3, 2011 6:31:59am

re: #308 FQ Kafir

The problem with a financial transaction tax is that you will, by the nature of the tax, have less financial transactions. That is what happens when you tax something.

What follows from fewer financial transactions?

You've presented the Laffer Curve argument. It suffers when confronted with reality.

313 Conn. Lawyer  Mon, Oct 3, 2011 6:42:31am

Kirkspencer: You might try reading the literature. E.g., "Sweden,...
increased its STT [stock transfer tax] to 2% in 1986. By the end of the decade, half of the volume in Swedish shares traded in London. Furthermore, attracting back once-lost activity may be extremely difficult after alternative trading sites emerge." Congressional Research Service, Transaction Tax: General Overview, December 2, 2004 at page CRS-5. New York's stock transfer tax has been eliminated. R. Pollin, D. Baker & M Schaberg, SECURITIES TRANSACTION TAXES FOR U.S. FINANCIAL MARKETS, Eastern Economic Journal, Vol. 29, No. 4, Fall 2003, at page 534.

Do you have any economic support for your claim that taxing an activity has no effect on the taxed activity? I don't even think leftists like Prof. Krugman or Prof. DeLong would subscribe to that claim.

314 ProGunLiberal  Mon, Oct 3, 2011 6:57:44am

re: #313 Conn. Lawyer

Strange though, because Sweden is doing extremely well, while the UK is in the same boat we are.

315 Conn. Lawyer  Mon, Oct 3, 2011 7:01:10am

re: #314 ProLifeLiberal

Sweden has adopted a lot of market oriented reforms over the past ten years, which is probably why it's doing so well. Did you know that among other things Sweden got rid of the inheritance tax?

316 kirkspencer  Mon, Oct 3, 2011 7:06:06am

Conn. Lawyer, perhaps your second source is questionable. This link is to the New York Department of taxation and finance's stock transfer tax page for the current year.

Sweden did experience the drop when the tax was established. On the other hand, Hong Kong did not see a decline when it increased its stamp duty on stock transfers and bearable instruments. Neither Brazil nor Peru experienced a decline when their financial transfer taxes were implemented.

Since the decline is not universal I submit there were other elements that caused the flight.

317 ProGunLiberal  Mon, Oct 3, 2011 7:10:23am

re: #315 Conn. Lawyer

They still have a whole lot of other things though that we need.

In addition, getting rid of the Inheritance Tax is a poor idea. Money will just be squirreled away over generations, leaving an aristocracy of sorts.

Paris Hilton is a damn good example of what I speak.

Also, you calling the abolition of the Inheritance Tax "Pro-Market" is extremely telling.

318 ProGunLiberal  Mon, Oct 3, 2011 7:12:26am

re: #316 kirkspencer

Such as the fact that Sweden is about 1/8th the size of the UK.

319 Conn. Lawyer  Mon, Oct 3, 2011 7:25:44am

PLL- I did not mean to suggest that eliminating the inheritance tax was a market oriented reform, I just cited that as an example of the kinds of anti-socialist changes that Sweden has implemented recently. For more about the pro-market changes that ignited growth in Sweden, please see the following article by a member of the Swedish Parliament: [Link: online.wsj.com...]

Kirkspencer. When I was a young lawyer, we would hold M&A closings across the GW bridge to avoid the NY stock transfer tax. That is no longer done and hasn't been done since 1979 when NY adopted a statute providing for the rebate of all stock transfer taxes. So technically, you are right, there is a tax on the books, but it's rebated in full so economically there is no tax.

320 lostlakehiker  Mon, Oct 3, 2011 8:18:38am

re: #6 Decatur Deb

TPM or a similar blog was complaining this AM that only one national politician (Bernie Sanders, bless his heart) has come out in support of the demonstrations. How the hell could the President or Sen. Reid give a blanket endorsement of an action that embraces the worst of their nutcase subgroups? And yes, I would like a touch of pillage and torch for the responsible firms.

A touch of legal penalties for criminal conduct would suit me fine. You load up GSE's with debt you know is trash, you collect your fees, and you dump the toxic sludge you call a performing mortgage on the taxpayers, yeah you should get slammed. You help Fannie cook its books, as Goldman Sachs did according to "Reckless Endangerment", yeah, you should get slammed. You provide sweetheart loans to who knows how many well connected politicians and their families [as Countrywide did]...but see, that buys you not just favorable treatment while the scam is running. It buys you immunity once the scam collapses. Nobody in the seats of power is ever going to send anybody to jail for having set up friends and relatives of the powerful with sweetheart loans.

Not if it was done on a sufficient scale and for the right power holders.

When talking torching, in a context of mobs, it's easy to be misunderstood. Fire kills. I hope the wrong sort weren't reading you literally.

321 lostlakehiker  Mon, Oct 3, 2011 8:21:56am

re: #312 kirkspencer

You've presented the Laffer Curve argument. It suffers when confronted with reality.

In Somalia right now, they're having a Laffer curve famine. The Al Sabbah (spelling loose) movement was the de facto government in the hinterland. It levied taxes of 50% and up on all farmers. When a drought came along and yields fell, the tax rate went toward 100%.

Farmers who didn't pay suffered punitive amputations, hand, leg, head. Eventually they just gave up and walked away from their land. Food production fell to basically zero.

322 kirkspencer  Mon, Oct 3, 2011 11:29:42am

re: #321 lostlakehiker

In Somalia right now, they're having a Laffer curve famine. The Al Sabbah (spelling loose) movement was the de facto government in the hinterland. It levied taxes of 50% and up on all farmers. When a drought came along and yields fell, the tax rate went toward 100%.

Farmers who didn't pay suffered punitive amputations, hand, leg, head. Eventually they just gave up and walked away from their land. Food production fell to basically zero.

At the high end, increasing taxes decreases tax revenues by suppressing production revenues. That's an obvious point to which there is no disagreement.

The flaw comes when claiming this is true at the low end. It's false - there are numerous cases of taxes increasing that get increased revenues and do not suppress production.

The question is where the curve peaks - at what tax level does the increase start having this effect. In general, using historical data, it appears it's around the point the TOTAL tax burden of between 60 and 70%.

Which is, I think, a bit higher than 1%.


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