1 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 12:01:40pm

The Actual Genuine Tea Partiers of 1773 were exceptionally clear on what they wanted.

2 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 12:01:50pm

Coulter is almost surreal.

3 Sheila Broflovski  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 12:04:38pm

re: #2 SanFranciscoZionist

Coulter is almost surreal.

Somebody gag her with a cheeseburger.

4 jaunte  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 12:05:38pm

Nice Hannity '09 clip.

5 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 12:06:40pm

re: #2 SanFranciscoZionist

Coulter is almost surreal.

Why don't you try thinking of her as a performance art piece, instead? Geller, too.

6 Kragar  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 12:07:04pm

A laughable gang of disorganized and confused NAZIS

7 jaunte  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 12:08:20pm

"This is not tea party behavior."

8 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 12:09:27pm

Meh, everyone is acting out their assigned roles--and I've heard the Fox team do theirs before.

9 Kragar  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 12:10:34pm

If they exhibited Tea Party behavior, they would have brought guns and talked about 2d amendment solutions to dealing with Wall Street

10 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 12:11:23pm

re: #5 EmmmieG

Why don't you try thinking of her as a performance art piece, instead? Geller, too.

I think what shows Coulter up in this piece to me as performance art--or a total liar--is the languor of the way she compares the protestors to the French Revolution, the Russian Revolution, and the Nazis.

If I thought all those people were headed my way, I would be a little agitated. She's smug. This is not a normal response to fascism.

11 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 12:12:11pm

re: #10 SanFranciscoZionist

I think what shows Coulter up in this piece to me as performance art--or a total liar--is the languor of the way she compares the protestors to the French Revolution, the Russian Revolution, and the Nazis.

If I thought all those people were headed my way, I would be a little agitated. She's smug. This is not a normal response to fascism.

Coulter has found a lucrative niche. It buys her Blahniks for her.

12 NJDhockeyfan  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 12:14:19pm

re: #9 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

If they exhibited Tea Party behavior, they would have brought guns and talked about 2d amendment solutions to dealing with Wall Street

Instead they are sending threatening emails to lawmakers...

Email: 'Time to kill the wealthy'

Several influential New York state lawmakers have received threatening mails saying it is “time to kill the wealthy” if they don’t renew the state’s tax surcharge on millionaires, according to reports.

It’s time to tax the millionaires!” reads the email, according to WTEN in Albany. “If you don’t, I’m going to pay a visit with my carbine to one of those tech companies you are so proud of and shoot every spoiled Ivy League [expletive] I can find.

State Assembly Speaker Sheldon Silver and State Senate Majority Leader Dean Skelos reportedly received the email, as did State Assembly Majority Leader Ron Canestrari. The governor’s office did not tell the New York Daily News whether the governor received the email.

The email, with the threatening subject line of, “time to kill the wealthy,” was detailed and disturbing.

How hard is it for us to stake out one of the obvious access roads to some tech company, tail an employee home and toss a liquor bottle full of flaming gasoline through their nice picture window into their cute house,” wrote the author of the email.

13 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 12:16:04pm

re: #12 NJDhockeyfan

Instead they are sending threatening emails to lawmakers...

Email: 'Time to kill the wealthy'

They would be more likely to get a hard-working engineer.

Full disclosure: Married to a hard-working high tech engineer.

14 Kragar  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 12:16:48pm

re: #12 NJDhockeyfan

Instead they are sending threatening emails to lawmakers...

Email: 'Time to kill the wealthy'

Because we know the TP would never engage in threatening behavior ever.

Oh wait, we aren't supposed to judge the TP because it attracted a few crazies. Thats just a lone wolf fringe.

15 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 12:18:35pm

re: #12 NJDhockeyfan

Instead they are sending threatening emails to lawmakers...

Email: 'Time to kill the wealthy'

They're oppressing me with their math and science!

Help, help, he pulled a slide rule on me!

(Okay, out of date. It was a $200 TI calculator.)

16 engineer cat  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 12:22:43pm

Sarah Palin Says No

Former Part-Time Governor Was Coached In Pronunciation Of Difficult Two Letter Word

17 iossarian  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 12:23:59pm

re: #16 engineer dog

Sarah Palin Says No

Former Part-Time Governor Was Coached In Pronunciation Of Difficult Two Letter Word

KABOOM

18 engineer cat  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 12:24:01pm

“time to kill the wealthy”

the tea party would never propose anything so unacceptable as this! they only threatened to kill liberals

19 NJDhockeyfan  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 12:24:14pm

re: #14 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Because we know the TP would never engage in threatening behavior ever.

Oh wait, we aren't supposed to judge the TP because it attracted a few crazies. Thats just a lone wolf fringe.

Lone wolf fringe. I see. So GOP members rarely receive threats but Democrats do much more because conservatives are evil?

20 jamesfirecat  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 12:26:20pm

re: #19 NJDhockeyfan

Lone wolf fringe. I see. So GOP members rarely receive threats but Democrats do much more because conservatives are evil?

///Yeah conservatives so rarely threaten the life of a liberal!

21 Kragar  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 12:26:20pm

re: #19 NJDhockeyfan

Lone wolf fringe. I see. So GOP members rarely receive threats but Democrats do much more because conservatives are evil?

And where exactly did I say any of that? I think your comment shows that assholes will talk shit for a variety of reasons on both sides of the aisle.

22 iossarian  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 12:29:07pm

re: #19 NJDhockeyfan

Lone wolf fringe. I see. So GOP members rarely receive threats but Democrats do much more because conservatives are evil?

No, conservatives are evil because they think poor people should be left to die of easily preventable illnesses.

Violent nutters, whatever their political bent, don't necessarily tell you much about the mainstream of either movement, though it is worth noting that in general, right-wing rhetoric of the past 10 years has been much more violent than left-wing rhetoric.

23 NJDhockeyfan  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 12:30:33pm

Woman faces charges in threatening emails to lawmakers

MADISON (WKOW) -- Authorities say 26-year-old Katherine Windels sent disturbing emails to 16 Republican senators, repeatedly threatening to kill them.

Threatening E-Mail Sent to Wisconsin Republican Senators

Since I've been remarking on the calm, even tone of Wisconsin pro-union protests, I want to point out the exceptions. Charlie Sykes posts a death threat-laden e-mail sent to 15 Republican members of the Senate; I've confirmed that the e-mail was received, and that this was the text.

Please put your things in order because you will be killed and your familes will also be killed due to your actions in the last 8 weeks. Please explain to them that this is because if we get rid of you and your families then it will save the rights of 300,000 people and also be able to close the deficit that you have created. I hope you have a good time in hell. Read below for more information on possible scenarios in which you will die.

...

24 Sheila Broflovski  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 12:31:26pm

re: #13 EmmmieG

They would be more likely to get a hard-working engineer.

Full disclosure: Married to a hard-working high tech engineer.

full disclosure: I am a high tech engineer, and I am nowhere near "wealthy"

25 NJDhockeyfan  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 12:31:40pm

re: #22 iossarian

No, conservatives are evil because they think poor people should be left to die of easily preventable illnesses.

That's totally absurd. Nobody wants anyone to die. What is wrong with you?

26 iossarian  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 12:32:04pm

re: #23 NJDhockeyfan

Interesting. Does the presence/absence of violent lunatics in a given political movement influence your voting behavior at all?

27 darthstar  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 12:32:06pm

Fox & Friends openly mock Sarah Palin (How bad do you have to suck to get mocked by that group of idiots?)...but Fox appears to have pulled the video...

The Fox morning team openly chuckled at Palin’s 2012 decision, needling the Alaska governor-turned-Fox-commentator for her Wednesday announcement that she was skipping the race.


Is that what she said? It was so circuitous,” said co-host Brian Kilmeade.

Gretchen Carlson joined in: “The difference, I think, between Chris Christie and Sarah Palin — Chris Christie called a press conference, of course, to say that he was not going to be running — but there were tons of people publicly asking Chris Christie to run for president.

Read more: [Link: www.politico.com...]

28 Killgore Trout  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 12:32:21pm

re: #9 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

If they exhibited Tea Party behavior, they would have brought guns and talked about 2d amendment solutions to dealing with Wall Street

Depemds. The only Tea Parties they brought weapons to were in states and locations that allowed open carry. I'll give the Tea Partiers credit for getting permits for their protests and generally behaving themselves. There are plenty of threatening signs and language at the wall street protests to. We've had entire threads about similar Tea Party signs.

29 zora  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 12:33:07pm

re: #19 NJDhockeyfan

getting closer, but needs a little more nuance.

30 jamesfirecat  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 12:34:03pm

re: #25 NJDhockeyfan

That's totally absurd. Nobody wants anyone to die. What is wrong with you?

If nobody wants anyone to die please explain the cheering...

31 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 12:34:21pm

re: #24 Alouette

full disclosure: I am a high tech engineer, and I am nowhere near "wealthy"

But if some whack-o just followed a car home and fire bombed that person's house, they would be more likely to get an engineer or programmer than an exec.

32 NJDhockeyfan  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 12:34:48pm

re: #26 iossarian

Interesting. Does the presence/absence of violent lunatics in a given political movement influence your voting behavior at all?

No, there are lunatics all over. To suggest one side owns the most lunatic is stupid.

33 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 12:35:19pm

And yet, in the real world, we do have creatures like the Kochs, and laws like the Haliburton loopholes. We have major banks and credit companies squeezing working America as hard as they can ,and protected by their pet political stooges. We are suffering for the mismanagement of an unelected few. And yet, average Americans go to war and suffer grievous wounds to keep oil flowing for those corporations. And yet, we pay more for our health care than any other civilized nation and only manage to provide healthcare on the level of a former SSR for most of our population because of all the parasites we have, protected by pet politicians.

There is even a perfect song about it:

Everybody knows that the fight is fixed, the poor stay poor and the rich get rich, that's how it goes...

And yet, we act as if this message is somehow unclear or, muddled or, confused and the very plutocrats who astroturfed the teaparty, would like us to believe this is just the expression of useless people. Afterall, everyone not in that club, is only a tool to be used or a useless person to be squashed. Of course, it is a giant muddled mess. Of course there are a large number of fools drawn to discord and the usual idiots earnestly, but ceaselessly venting their rage at the wrong targets.

The true question is why is not middle America there with them making a louder and more clear message? Is it that hard to open the eyes? Is it that hard to do the math?

We all know the GOP is the party of the plutocrats. We all know that the GOP callously does not care about the suffering of Americans. We all know who the bad guys are.

Time to take democracy back.

We might have a chance, if we actually try.

34 lawhawk  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 12:35:45pm

You know things are bad when the police are administering the beatdown on Sesame Street.

35 darthstar  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 12:35:53pm

Pinko liberal at Occupy Wall Street:
Image: tumblr_lsnb4eDrlh1qkw0m9o1_500.jpg

36 iossarian  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 12:36:01pm

re: #25 NJDhockeyfan

That's totally absurd. Nobody wants anyone to die. What is wrong with you?

Two options for healthcare, A and B:

A costs less, prevents more disease, and, crucially, covers poor people who, under option B, are left to die.

Yet conservatives prefer B to A. Why?

37 darthstar  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 12:37:21pm

re: #32 NJDhockeyfan

No, there are lunatics all over. To suggest one side owns the most lunatic is stupid.

To suggest your side owns the most lunatics is stupid. To suggest the other side does is perfectly normal.

The whole purpose of having standards is that they can always be doubled.

38 NJDhockeyfan  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 12:37:29pm

re: #30 jamesfirecat

If nobody wants anyone to die please explain the cheering...

The murderers on death row represent:

"conservatives are evil because they think poor people should be left to die of easily preventable illnesses."

Got it.

39 makeitstop  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 12:38:41pm

It's going to be another one of those days, isn't it?

40 Interesting Times  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 12:39:03pm

re: #38 NJDhockeyfan

The murderers on death row represent:

"conservatives are evil because they think poor people should be left to die of easily preventable illnesses."

Got it.

I believe jamesfirecat linked the wrong video - this one is far more apropos:

41 NJDhockeyfan  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 12:39:12pm

re: #36 iossarian

Two options for healthcare, A and B:

A costs less, prevents more disease, and, crucially, covers poor people who, under option B, are left to die.

Yet conservatives prefer B to A. Why?

I guess they enjoy watching poor people to die.

////

42 jamesfirecat  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 12:39:18pm

re: #38 NJDhockeyfan

The murderers on death row represent:

"conservatives are evil because they think poor people should be left to die of easily preventable illnesses."

Got it.

You said "Nobody wants anyone to die." people on death row fall into the category of "anyone" don't they?

Do you want to change your original statement?

43 albusteve  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 12:39:51pm

are people unhappy with govt?

44 Gepetto  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 12:40:05pm

re: #14 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Because we know the TP would never engage in threatening behavior ever.

Oh wait, we aren't supposed to judge the TP because it attracted a few crazies. Thats just a lone wolf fringe.

what does the threatening email to fatcats have to do with the tea party? oh, MBF.

45 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 12:40:25pm

Haven't tried masturbating to the Constitution...

Yet...

46 iossarian  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 12:40:27pm

re: #41 NJDhockeyfan

I guess they enjoy watching poor people to die.

///

Give me another reason then. Remember, A costs less and prevents more disease than B.

48 Killgore Trout  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 12:40:48pm

re: #34 lawhawk

You know things are bad when the police are administering the beatdown on Sesame Street.

lol

49 zora  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 12:40:59pm

re: #38 NJDhockeyfan

how often do conservatives cheer the evil goverment? not often. but when the government decides to execute that gets a rise out of them. it's unsettling to say the least.

50 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 12:41:06pm

re: #39 makeitstop

It's going to be another one of those days, isn't it?

Yes. The OWS protests are opening old wounds and driving splitting wedges through LGF, and we're just going to have to ride it out.

51 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 12:41:16pm

re: #36 iossarian

Two options for healthcare, A and B:

A costs less, prevents more disease, and, crucially, covers poor people who, under option B, are left to die.

Yet conservatives prefer B to A. Why?

The real answer is that in addition to being racist bastards who don't mind seeing poor people, who in this nation, used to be mostly brown but less and less so as the whole middle class evaporates, die, conservative bastards are egomaniacal, selfish and evil, enough to think that they too are somehow part of the ruling class and will one day piss on everyone else too, no matter how bad they are off now.

52 darthstar  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 12:41:39pm

re: #45 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Haven't tried masturbating to the Constitution...

Yet...

The First Amendment gets me off...but not in that way.

53 jaunte  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 12:42:16pm

Today's Fox News email, still asking why:
Image: FoxFanEmail.jpg

54 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 12:42:44pm

re: #38 NJDhockeyfan

The murderers on death row represent:

"conservatives are evil because they think poor people should be left to die of easily preventable illnesses."

Got it.

OK, how about let him die calls in reference to Americans without health insurance, at Republican debates... does that jog your selective memory?

55 Gepetto  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 12:43:22pm

re: #26 iossarian

Interesting. Does the presence/absence of violent lunatics in a given political movement influence your voting behavior at all?

If we withheld votes based on the behavior of the lunatic fringes, there would be no one to vote for, not even the Greens.

56 Kragar  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 12:43:38pm

re: #44 Gepetto

what does the threatening email to fatcats have to do with the tea party? oh, MBF.

Because the whole point of the daily show clip was comparing the Tea Party to the OWS protestors. Ask NJ why he decided to bring up emails.

57 Simply Sarah  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 12:43:46pm

re: #50 SanFranciscoZionist

Yes. The OWS protests are opening old wounds and driving splitting wedges through LGF, and we're just going to have to ride it out.

So...this might not be the best time to show off my new "I *heart* Marx" shirt to everyone?
/

58 Kragar  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 12:44:19pm

re: #57 Simply Sarah

So...this might not be the best time to show off my new "I *heart* Marx" shirt to everyone?
/

Groucho?

59 darthstar  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 12:44:24pm

re: #50 SanFranciscoZionist

Yes. The OWS protests are opening old wounds and driving splitting wedges through LGF, and we're just going to have to ride it out.

No we don't!
Attica!
Attica!
Attica!

60 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 12:45:03pm

re: #41 NJDhockeyfan

I guess they enjoy watching poor people to die.

///

Well they call for it to round of applause at GOP debates.. remember that?

Or I suppose you could just read Ayn Rand...

Or listen to them...

Hello...
Earth calling wingnut whitewasher with selective memory...

Remember that?

61 jaunte  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 12:45:14pm

re: #57 Simply Sarah

Did it come from Hart and Schaffner?

62 Simply Sarah  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 12:45:58pm

re: #58 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Groucho?

Nah. The one that had a beard. I think his name was Pinko.

63 makeitstop  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 12:46:16pm

re: #58 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Groucho?

Richard?

/forgive me

64 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 12:46:47pm

re: #57 Simply Sarah

So...this might not be the best time to show off my new "I *heart* Marx" shirt to everyone?
/

Depends on how you look in it... I am all for inspiring the workers to seize the means of production...

65 Kragar  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 12:47:32pm

re: #63 makeitstop

Richard?

/forgive me

You shall die a peasant's death.
/

66 darthstar  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 12:47:58pm
67 NJDhockeyfan  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 12:48:07pm

re: #47 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Man Arrested For Threatening to Kill Democratic Senator Jim McDermott

After AZ shootings, Rep. Denny Davis told he’s ‘next’

Tom Ross, Delaware GOP Chair, Threatened With 'Bullet In The Head'

Man sentenced for death threat on GOP leader Cantor


We could probably do this all day but what's the point? There are scumbags & kooks all over and I don't think they represent either side.

68 goddamnedfrank  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 12:48:10pm

One year ago today (Somehow this seems relevant to the discussion):

Firefighters in rural Tennessee let a home burn to the ground last week because the homeowner hadn't paid a $75 fee.

Gene Cranick of Obion County and his family lost all of their possessions in the Sept. 29 fire, along with three dogs and a cat.

69 Eventual Carrion  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 12:48:17pm

re: #19 NJDhockeyfan

Lone wolf fringe. I see. So GOP members rarely receive threats but Democrats do much more because conservatives are evil?

Grow up.

70 Wozza Matter?  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 12:48:33pm

Maximum Hannity pwnage.

71 Kragar  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 12:49:03pm

re: #67 NJDhockeyfan

Tom Ross, Delaware GOP Chair, Threatened With 'Bullet In The Head'

Man sentenced for death threat on GOP leader Cantor

We could probably do this all day but what's the point? There are scumbags & kooks all over and I don't think they represent either side.

I can agree with you on that.

72 jamesfirecat  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 12:49:20pm

re: #68 goddamnedfrank

One year ago today (Somehow this seems relevant to the discussion):

Jeebus Cripes I knew that story but somehow I never got around to hearing the part where the people lost pets in the fire also.... just makes it that much more deplorable doesn't it?

73 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 12:49:54pm

One serious observation, and if you read nothing else of mine this thread please note this:

Of course, Occupy Wall Street has a muddled message. It doesn't have the many millions of dollars organizing, shaping and feeding talking points to it from billionaires like the Teaparty does. It doesn't have an entire right wing national network feeding it propaganda and editing its foibles.

74 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 12:50:42pm

re: #66 darthstar

Must.Have.This.Book.

You dig squirrel, peanut butter and bacon sandwiches? Dude... hard core...

75 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 12:51:03pm

re: #28 Killgore Trout

I'll give the Tea Partiers credit for getting permits for their protests

I thought the United States Constitution guaranteed freedom of assembly. Why do you then need a permit to exercise that right?

76 NJDhockeyfan  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 12:51:19pm

re: #69 RayFerd

Grow up.

Go piss up a rope.

(...must keep away from cigarettes...resist the urge...I can do it...)

77 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 12:52:01pm

re: #55 Gepetto

If we withheld votes based on the behavior of the lunatic fringes, there would be no one to vote for, not even the Greens.

I'd say 'especially not the Greens', but YMMV.

78 NJDhockeyfan  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 12:52:26pm

re: #75 000G

I thought the United States Constitution guaranteed freedom of assembly. Why do you then need a permit to exercise that right?

Because it's the law?

79 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 12:52:30pm

re: #57 Simply Sarah

So...this might not be the best time to show off my new "I *heart* Marx" shirt to everyone?
/

Ah, go for it. It's going to be an intolerable little bit anyway.

80 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 12:52:32pm

re: #75 000G

I thought the United States Constitution guaranteed freedom of assembly. Why do you then need a permit to exercise that right?

Because all rights are subject to limitations. You don't have the right to say anything you want either in all circumstances - like shouting fire in a crowed theater just for kicks.

81 jaunte  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 12:52:49pm

re: #67 NJDhockeyfan

Wasn't Ross threatened because the emailer thought he was too much of a RINO?

82 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 12:53:15pm

re: #62 Simply Sarah

Nah. The one that had a beard. I think his name was Pinko.

The real test, though, is, would you wear it in Miami?

(Was it Miami?)

83 Simply Sarah  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 12:53:34pm

re: #64 LudwigVanQuixote

Depends on how you look in it... I am all for inspiring the workers to seize the means of production...

Well, I need to find the right outfit for it. It only came in red or black.

84 Eventual Carrion  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 12:53:41pm
85 Kragar  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 12:54:10pm

re: #79 SanFranciscoZionist

Ah, go for it. It's going to be an intolerable little bit anyway.

NO ITS NOT!
/

86 iossarian  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 12:54:12pm

re: #81 jaunte

Wasn't Ross threatened because the emailer thought he was too much of a RINO?

Great catch!

87 darthstar  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 12:54:41pm

re: #67 NJDhockeyfan

Tom Ross, Delaware GOP Chair, Threatened With 'Bullet In The Head'

Man sentenced for death threat on GOP leader Cantor

We could probably do this all day but what's the point? There are scumbags & kooks all over and I don't think they represent either side.

Cantor's threat was from a Fundamentalist Christian Extremist.

The chairman of the Delaware Republican Party received a death threat last week over his support for Rep. Mike Castle (R-Del) over Tea Party challenger Christine O'Donnell in the state's upcoming Senate primary, a party official confirmed to the Huffington Post.

Tom Ross's threat was from a Teabagger who was pissed he supported Castle over Christine "I'm not a witch" O'Donnell. It's not an example of "both sides do it" ...it's an example of the right wing being so unhinged it attacks its own.

Sometimes it helps to actually read the links you provide before doing this:

88 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 12:54:42pm

re: #76 NJDhockeyfan

Go piss up a rope.

(...must keep away from cigarettes...resist the urge...I can do it...)

So you noticed it enough to ding it down, but didn't answer the question...

When you were denying that teabags like watching poor people die:

I guess they enjoy watching poor people to die.

///

I asked:

Well they call for it to round of applause at GOP debates.. remember that?

Or I suppose you could just read Ayn Rand...

Or listen to them...

So do you have a cogent response there? Or are you just going to sulk?

89 Wozza Matter?  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 12:55:16pm

re: #83 Simply Sarah

Well, I need to find the right outfit for it. They only came in red or black.

Red cotton jumpsuits for the guys, red leather catsuits for the ladies......


(*i said that out loud, didn't I?*)

90 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 12:55:34pm

re: #75 000G

I thought the United States Constitution guaranteed freedom of assembly. Why do you then need a permit to exercise that right?

I don't know what the relevent law is, but in most urban areas you do need a permit for a large demonstration (or party, or craft fair) in many places, especially when you're planning a sound system or will be closing traffic.

91 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 12:56:01pm

re: #76 NJDhockeyfan

Go piss up a rope.

(...must keep away from cigarettes...resist the urge...I can do it...)

And good luck on the resisting cigs... that I honestly sympathize with.

92 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 12:57:04pm

re: #85 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

NO ITS NOT!
/

I expect to be annoyed by both sides of the screaming food fight discussion, so I'm just taking life easily.

93 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 12:57:42pm

re: #67 NJDhockeyfan

Tom Ross, Delaware GOP Chair, Threatened With 'Bullet In The Head'

Man sentenced for death threat on GOP leader Cantor

We could probably do this all day but what's the point? There are scumbags & kooks all over and I don't think they represent either side.

lol, from your first link:

The chairman of the Delaware Republican Party received a death threat last week over his support for Rep. Mike Castle (R-Del) over Tea Party challenger Christine O'Donnell in the state's upcoming Senate primary,

So that death threat was actually from a teabagger against an "establishment" Republican.

94 darthstar  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 12:57:52pm

re: #81 jaunte

Wasn't Ross threatened because the emailer thought he was too much of a RINO?

Both sides do it! The Right and the extreme Right.

95 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 12:58:03pm

re: #92 SanFranciscoZionist

I expect to be annoyed by both sides of the screaming food fight discussion, so I'm just taking life easily.

Yes, your aversion to taking stands on issues you previously avowed is well noted.

96 engineer cat  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 12:58:35pm

re: #36 iossarian

Two options for healthcare, A and B:

A costs less, prevents more disease, and, crucially, covers poor people who, under option B, are left to die.

Yet conservatives prefer B to A. Why?

they've been convinced that A means they will have to personally pay for the hypothetical laziness and irresponsibility of some hypothetical undeserving person

the demonization of victims is the gasoline for a large part of this kind of politics

97 Kragar  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 12:58:43pm

re: #92 SanFranciscoZionist

I expect to be annoyed by both sides of the screaming food fight discussion, so I'm just taking life easily.

I just remind myself its the internet, nothing personal, and enjoy some porn for a while to unwind.

98 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 12:59:01pm

re: #57 Simply Sarah

So...this might not be the best time to show off my new "I *heart* Marx" shirt to everyone?
/

Only if it's got a picture of Groucho on it.

99 Wozza Matter?  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 12:59:36pm

If it's going to be one of *those* threads I'm outta here for the night...........

100 iossarian  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 12:59:57pm

re: #96 engineer dog

they've been convinced that A means they will have to personally pay for the hypothetical laziness and irresponsibility of some hypothetical undeserving person

the demonization of victims is the gasoline for a large part of this kind of politics

Well exactly. I was hoping to hear an actual, self-proclaimed conservative come up with a less distasteful explanation, but there you go.

I suppose there aren't any.

101 darthstar  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:00:01pm

re: #93 000G

lol, from your first link:

So the first threat was actually from a teabagger against an "establishment" Republican.

This isn't the first time this has happened to NJD...The google doesn't tell you if the examples it gets are good...it expects you to spend a minute or two reading and then processing the information it returns so you know if it supports your position or not.

102 jaunte  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:00:03pm

Must remember not to buy any used Constitutions.

103 Wozza Matter?  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:00:10pm

re: #98 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Only if it's got a picture of Groucho on it.

A child of 5 could understand that........

send for a child of 5.........

104 NJDhockeyfan  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:00:20pm

re: #88 LudwigVanQuixote

So you noticed it enough to ding it down, but didn't answer the question...

When you were denying that teabags like watching poor people die:

......

Well they call for it to round of applause at GOP debates.. remember that?

They had a round of applause for watching poor people die...really?

What, are you a fucking nut or just stupid?

Jesus Christ. Is it a full moon or something?

105 iossarian  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:00:46pm

re: #102 jaunte

Must remember not to buy any used Constitutions.

Puts a whole new spin on hotel copies of the NT as well.

106 NJDhockeyfan  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:01:19pm

re: #71 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

I can agree with you on that.

I see some people here don't agree. What a shame.

107 Wozza Matter?  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:01:23pm

re: #105 iossarian

Puts a whole new spin on hotel copies of the NT as well.

All that begettin' began back in the bible...........

108 Killgore Trout  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:01:27pm

re: #56 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Because the whole point of the daily show clip was comparing the Tea Party to the OWS protestors. Ask NJ why he decided to bring up emails.

I don't think he should be downdinged for it. The wall street protests are the topic of the thread. Just like if this were a tea party thread and there was a recent story about right wing death threats.

109 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:01:36pm

re: #32 NJDhockeyfan

No, there are lunatics all over. To suggest one side owns the most lunatic is stupid.

It's not stupid, it's the truth. MBF would be false and stupid.

But personally, I would love for the Birchers and the Bob Avakian groupies to enter the thunderdome.

110 darthstar  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:01:46pm

Damn...meeting time.

111 NJDhockeyfan  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:02:05pm

I gotta go work now. All you nice lizards and lunatics have a great day.

112 iossarian  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:02:08pm

re: #104 NJDhockeyfan

They had a round of applause for watching poor people die...really?

What, are you a fucking nut or just stupid?

Jesus Christ. Is it a full moon or something?

There was vocal assent when Ron Paul said that people who couldn't afford to pay for their healthcare should be left to die.

But besides that, do you have a reason why option B is preferable to option A? Remember, A is cheaper and prevents more disease.

113 makeitstop  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:02:23pm

makeitstop grabs bowl of popcorn, settles into chair...

114 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:02:44pm

re: #96 engineer dog

they've been convinced that A means they will have to personally pay for the hypothetical laziness and irresponsibility of some hypothetical undeserving person

the demonization of victims is the gasoline for a large part of this kind of politics

And of course, when they need that assistance it is different. It is always different. It's true for red states who hate that gov't money while fighting for it. It's true on the small scale. I recall so many wingnuts here decrying gov't health benefits, but then claiming they had earned the ones they received.

It's true in the abortion fight too. Ask most OB gyns who perform abortions, and they will tell you of the woman on the protest line, who saw them secretly, but her case was different.

115 SpaceJesus  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:04:09pm

somebody should inform coulter that if we had kept the traditional values of the founding fathers that she would not be allowed to vote or speak without her husband's permission.

116 NJDhockeyfan  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:05:04pm

re: #112 iossarian

There was vocal assent when Ron Paul said that people who couldn't afford to pay for their healthcare should be left to die.

But besides that, do you have a reason why option B is preferable to option A? Remember, A is cheaper and prevents more disease.

Ron Paul? Are fucking kidding me? That's what all this whining is all about, the Ron Paul crowd? He's just a tiny canker sore in Washington with a Republican Party pin.

LOL!!

117 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:05:08pm

re: #115 SpaceJesus

somebody should inform coulter that if we had kept the traditional values of the founding fathers that she would not be allowed to vote or speak without her husband's permission.

Someone should tell Coulter that in the 18th century she would be killed because she was mistaken for a cross dressing man.

118 Charles Johnson  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:05:19pm

I'm getting more sympathetic to the demonstrations myself. I still don't like some of the elements that are involved -- especially the Ron Paul-influenced "End the Fed" idiocy, and the extreme lefties like ANSWER.

But unlike the Tea Parties, this really does seem to be a classic example of a true populist movement. The basic message is that the middle and lower classes are getting increasingly screwed over by an obscenely bloated upper class, and that's a message that resonates.

119 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:05:40pm
120 engineer cat  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:05:41pm

re: #19 NJDhockeyfan

Lone wolf fringe. I see. So GOP members rarely receive threats but Democrats do much more because conservatives are evil?

what really bothers me is that there seems to be a pervasive mainstream conservative belief that it is okay to threaten "liberals" because we are not "real" americans

the attitude i see on fox news is that while tea party threats of violence may be regrettable, the anger is understandable since liberals "hate america" and are "trying to destroy" it

how would conservatives like it if it were routinely assumed that they were not "real heartland americans", that they "don't understand american values", and that "they are trying to destroy american greatness"?

exhibit A: sean hannity

121 iossarian  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:05:43pm

re: #116 NJDhockeyfan

Ron Paul? Are fucking kidding me? That's what all this whining is all about, the Ron Paul crowd? He's just a tiny canker sore in Washington with a Republican Party pin.

LOL!!

He's an exemplar, but you still haven't explained why conservatives prefer option B, which is more expensive and less effective at keeping people healthy, to option A.

122 MittDoesNotCompute  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:05:50pm

re: #73 LudwigVanQuixote

One serious observation, and if you read nothing else of mine this thread please note this:

Of course, Occupy Wall Street has a muddled message. It doesn't have the many millions of dollars organizing, shaping and feeding talking points to it from billionaires like the Teaparty does. It doesn't have an entire right wing national network feeding it propaganda and editing its foibles.

This I can agree with...OWS' problems with its kooks are, in its own ways, just as bad as the TP, but without the benefit of the media organizations or the well-funded astroturfers to spin and sanitize it or for public consumption.

123 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:06:44pm

re: #116 NJDhockeyfan

Ron Paul? Are fucking kidding me? That's what all this whining is all about, the Ron Paul crowd? He's just a tiny canker sore in Washington with a Republican Party pin.

LOL!!

Well that is one thing I mentioned...

Also in this thread, I've mentioned war for oil... that is most certainly enjoying poor people dying, chanting for execution, again usually poor people dying, the rich ones can afford much better attorneys, the writings of Ayn Rand and a plethora of other GOP stands.

Take your pick.

124 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:06:48pm

re: #25 NJDhockeyfan

That's totally absurd. Nobody wants anyone to die. What is wrong with you?

Now you're just lying.

125 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:07:22pm

re: #118 Charles

I'm getting more sympathetic to the demonstrations myself. I still don't like some of the elements that are involved -- especially the Ron Paul-influenced "End the Fed" idiocy, and the extreme lefties like ANSWER.

But unlike the Tea Parties, this really does seem to be a classic example of a true populist movement. The basic message is that the middle and lower classes are getting increasingly screwed over by an obscenely bloated upper class, and that's a message that resonates.

Yeah. Have you seen the tumbler post with all the personal stories?

126 Killgore Trout  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:07:50pm

re: #75 000G

I thought the United States Constitution guaranteed freedom of assembly. Why do you then need a permit to exercise that right?

Do you really mot understand that? There are many reasons. Scheduling is one reason. That way a Tea party at a park won't interfere with a large family reunion, free charity conert or something. Sanitation is another reason: to make sure the organizers have facilities, portapotties, etc for the amount of people they expect to attend. Liability is another reason. if the organizers build a shitty stage that collapses and people get hurt the city needs to make sure that the injured people have some recourse. Also if the crowd goes nuts and burns down the neighboring church the organizers need liability insurance to cover it.
Seriously, it's not that difficult to understand.

127 MittDoesNotCompute  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:09:02pm

re: #115 SpaceJesus

somebody should inform coulter that if we had kept the traditional values of the founding fathers that she would not be allowed to vote or speak without her husband's permission.

ZING! POW!

128 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:09:06pm

re: #119 000G

It's a lot of wishful thinking. Kinda like Fox News wants OWS to be the 60s/70s hippies counterculture menace conservatives love to mock and hate.

Well, every example these people have of the violent tendencies of the left is older than I am, so yes, if the OWS people would PLEASE bomb something, it would perk up some members of the Fox brigade no end.

No sarc. I'm pretty sure Coulter would dance a jig.

129 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:09:31pm

re: #114 LudwigVanQuixote

And of course, when they need that assistance it is different. It is always different. It's true for red states who hate that gov't money while fighting for it. It's true on the small scale. I recall so many wingnuts here decrying gov't health benefits, but then claiming they had earned the ones they received.

It's true in the abortion fight too. Ask most OB gyns who perform abortions, and they will tell you of the woman on the protest line, who saw them secretly, but her case was different.

Cases in point:

* Half of US social program recipients believe they 'have not used a government social program'
* Classic: The only moral abortion is MY abortion

130 engineer cat  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:09:56pm

re: #118 Charles

I'm getting more sympathetic to the demonstrations myself. I still don't like some of the elements that are involved -- especially the Ron Paul-influenced "End the Fed" idiocy, and the extreme lefties like ANSWER.

But unlike the Tea Parties, this really does seem to be a classic example of a true populist movement. The basic message is that the middle and lower classes are getting increasingly screwed over by an obscenely bloated upper class, and that's a message that resonates.

i'm largely sympathetic to OWS

i expect it to continue to be easy to find people there saying stupid things that i don't agree with, but to me it seems obvious that the main idea is that wall st is getting all the breaks while the rest of us are getting a raw deal

i don't know why teabaggers can't figure out that they are on the same side as OWS in this

131 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:09:57pm

re: #126 Killgore Trout

What part of "angry mob" do you not understand?
/

132 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:10:03pm

re: #126 Killgore Trout

Do you really mot understand that?

No, I did. I just wanted to see how far the understanding of people here extended.

133 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:11:17pm

re: #128 SanFranciscoZionist

I am pretty sure Bloomberg will find something nasty if he wants to swoop them out eventually. Worked in 2003, too.

134 makeitstop  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:12:05pm

re: #118 Charles

I'm getting more sympathetic to the demonstrations myself. I still don't like some of the elements that are involved -- especially the Ron Paul-influenced "End the Fed" idiocy, and the extreme lefties like ANSWER.

But unlike the Tea Parties, this really does seem to be a classic example of a true populist movement. The basic message is that the middle and lower classes are getting increasingly screwed over by an obscenely bloated upper class, and that's a message that resonates.

Charles - I linked to this post by Charles Pierce on the overnight thread last night. Pierce nails it on a number of levels.

The quote from the truck driver is especially good:

People looking for "a coherent message" in the park would do well to talk to Brendan Burke, a tall, tattooed truck driver with a degree from NYU and The New School, who's based at the center of the park, where four or five young people are crouched over laptops, shouting into the wind in their own way.

"People are informed today. People are online," Burke explains. "People in Kansas do yoga, you understand. Country's different, you understand? There's no more mooks in the citizenry. We are working people and we're not getting a fair shake, so we took to the streets. It's an irrational act, an act of passion, but we need to use self-control and respect. Those who want to go down with the ship will go down with the ship. Those who will be there will be sensible people who are out here for a reason. The kids who are out here who just want to party, well, they're beautiful children and we protect them every night. I can't even tell you what's going to happen after today. The cops may sweep this when the landlord says I want them out.

"Not anti-anybody. We're pro-American citizen. Millions of Americans are getting kicked out of their house. They're losing their education, their health care. They can't take care of their parents. This is about people. Republicans are opening their bills. Democrats are opening their bills. I'll go all the way to $250,000 if you want. Everybody's opening their bills and they're thinking, 'Who's protecting me from people stealing from me?' This isn't what I agreed on when I signed this agreement with this company. You add all these hassles up in your life — your hospital, your credit card, your education, your mortgage — and you're getting nailed. And there are a couple of banks who created the instruments that made that happen. This is not a physical war. This is an oppression that's quiet, and through money, and through services, and through small print. They want you to be afraid, and not to know, and they want to bewilder you. Between you and me, I shouldn't get a credit card. But I got one. I didn't even apply for it. Why am I getting a credit card?

"This is not Tahrir Square. This is not Tompkins Square Park. This is not Yuppies against squatters. This is about minds. We need help from people who know. We need help from people in the financial industry who know. They should be here, too. He should want to see a better community. I want to see change in a systematic and legislative way. We're looking for real results. We're looking for protection for people. We're down here trying to play bills. It's serious out there, but it's quiet, because it happens at everyone's kitchen table. It's happening household-by-household. There's a sense out there, which I hope what's going on here will dissipate, that there's something wrong with me. I'm a jerk because I can't pay that bill. There are working men who will march tomorrow. It's all about people, who feel they got duped. There needs to be a systematic legislative change, so that this cannot happen any more."

Well worth reading.

135 MittDoesNotCompute  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:12:36pm

re: #130 engineer dog

i'm largely sympathetic to OWS

i expect it to continue to be easy to find people there saying stupid things that i don't agree with, but to me it seems obvious that the main idea is that wall st is getting all the breaks while the rest of us are getting a raw deal

i don't know why teabaggers can't figure out that they are on the same side as OWS in this

Anything the scary commies and socalists are for, Real American Teabaggers are against!

///dripping

136 engineer cat  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:12:44pm

re: #114 LudwigVanQuixote

It's true in the abortion fight too. Ask most OB gyns who perform abortions, and they will tell you of the woman on the protest line, who saw them secretly, but her case was different.

yes - i have a link somewhere to an article giving chapter and verse on exactly that, from an ob gyn

137 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:13:00pm

re: #32 NJDhockeyfan

No, there are lunatics all over. To suggest one side owns the most lunatic is stupid.

Well no, it's a historical fact.

If you like, I'll link you to pictures of the last generation of conservative bigots to remind you of what they did to civil rights protesters.

Today, they're waving Gadsden flags and clamoring for more of the same from their Medicare scooters. /

138 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:13:15pm

re: #119 000G

It's a lot of wishful thinking. Kinda like Fox News wants OWS to be the 60s/70s hippies counterculture menace conservatives love to mock and hate.

they're preaching to the 80-year-old conservative choir, for whom the 60's are very relevant lol

139 Simply Sarah  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:13:27pm

re: #118 Charles

I'm getting more sympathetic to the demonstrations myself. I still don't like some of the elements that are involved -- especially the Ron Paul-influenced "End the Fed" idiocy, and the extreme lefties like ANSWER.

But unlike the Tea Parties, this really does seem to be a classic example of a true populist movement. The basic message is that the middle and lower classes are getting increasingly screwed over by an obscenely bloated upper class, and that's a message that resonates.

I'm rather sympathetic to much of the general ideas being espoused, if not some of the specific groups and causes. I'm hopeful, but very wary over the whole thing for many of the reasons people have outlined here.

140 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:13:51pm

re: #116 NJDhockeyfan

Ron Paul? Are fucking kidding me? That's what all this whining is all about, the Ron Paul crowd? He's just a tiny canker sore in Washington with a Republican Party pin.

LOL!!

I don't think you have answered Obdicut's questions yet on how today's GOP is different in major economical policy positions from Ron Paul.

141 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:13:52pm

re: #134 makeitstop

Charles - I linked to this post by Charles Pierce on the overnight thread last night. Pierce nails it on a number of levels.

The quote from the truck driver is especially good:

Well worth reading.

"There's no more mooks in the citizenry."

Gotta love it.

Not sure I agree with him, but gotta love it.

142 Kragar  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:14:03pm
143 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:14:11pm

JANE FONDA!

144 jaunte  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:14:26pm
145 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:14:37pm

re: #117 LudwigVanQuixote

Someone should tell Coulter that in the 18th century she would be killed because she was mistaken for a cross dressing man.

Completely unneccessary, Ludwig.

146 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:14:54pm

re: #134 makeitstop

Charles - I linked to this post by Charles Pierce on the overnight thread last night. Pierce nails it on a number of levels.

The quote from the truck driver is especially good:

Well worth reading.

"There needs to be a systematic legislative change, so that this cannot happen any more."

And this is the key phrase.

147 goddamnedfrank  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:15:26pm

re: #143 WindUpBird

JANE FONDA!

ROBERT BYRD!

148 Kragar  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:15:58pm

re: #146 SanFranciscoZionist

"There needs to be a systematic legislative change, so that this cannot happen any more."

And this is the key phrase.

Does he have a lobbyist yet? No? Too bad.
/

149 engineer cat  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:16:05pm

re: #119 000G

It's a lot of wishful thinking. Kinda like Fox News wants OWS to be the 60s/70s hippies counterculture menace conservatives love to mock and hate.

look at the OWS protesters and tell me what the average age is, and then look at the tea party protests and tell me what the average age is, and then tell me what the future of american politics is

150 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:16:13pm

re: #142 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Lindsey Graham On ‘Intimidation’: ‘If You’re A Southern White Guy, It Is Part Of Your Life’

The white man's burden, huh?

I liked this from the comments: "My white brother from another mother has officially made the dumbest statement of the day."

151 Killgore Trout  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:16:28pm

re: #132 000G

No, I did. I just wanted to see how far the understanding of people here extended.

Thanks for wasting my time typing an honest reply to your question.

152 Wozza Matter?  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:16:43pm

re: #147 goddamnedfrank

ROBERT BYRD!

CYNTHIA MCKINNEY

153 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:16:43pm

re: #125 LudwigVanQuixote

Yeah. Have you seen the tumbler post with all the personal stories?

I saw some conservative commentator dismissing the whole thing with saying

It's a blog of people whining about their student loans. Well, they should take responsibilities for the choices they made!

154 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:16:57pm

re: #138 WindUpBird

they're preaching to the 80-year-old conservative choir, for whom the 60's are very relevant lol

Twins, :15 apart.

155 albusteve  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:17:54pm

re: #146 SanFranciscoZionist

"There needs to be a systematic legislative change, so that this cannot happen any more."

And this is the key phrase.

I can't figure out why people are not holding the feds responsible....they write the rules and regs, if banks are criminal why are there no investigations?....because WS and the feds are one in the same, the perfect symbiosis

156 iossarian  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:18:05pm

re: #142 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Lindsey Graham On ‘Intimidation’: ‘If You’re A Southern White Guy, It Is Part Of Your Life’

The white man's burden, huh?

There are no words.

157 makeitstop  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:18:08pm

re: #133 000G

I am pretty sure Bloomberg will find something nasty if he wants to swoop them out eventually. Worked in 2003, too.

His wife is on the board of the park, BTW.

158 lawhawk  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:18:23pm

re: #130 engineer dog

Having spent a bit of time covering this stuff first hand, I am both sympathetic and leery of the protesters. For instance, I see friends and family suffering from real estate market issues - like being incapable of moving to relocate for a potential job because they're underwater on homes. I see stagnant and sliding wages. I see job cuts even as top execs get raises. Yet, the Jews-bankers-antisemitism thing makes me quite leery of the protesters as does some of the far left end the fed/ANSWER crowd stuff.

But at the same time there is common ground - TP and OWS recognize that there's a huge issue but they're taking opposite tacts. TP sees government as the problem (so they went ahead and sent their own candidates to DC where they promptly became part of the obstructionist right - blocking actions that would have been considered reasonable and prudent just a few short years ago). OWS sees Wall Street as the prime problem.

Fact is that there are problems with both - and both need to be tackled jointly.

159 Eventual Carrion  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:18:34pm

re: #67 NJDhockeyfan

Tom Ross, Delaware GOP Chair, Threatened With 'Bullet In The Head'

Man sentenced for death threat on GOP leader Cantor

We could probably do this all day but what's the point? There are scumbags & kooks all over and I don't think they represent either side.

The point is I am using references to people that actually DID these things, not some loud mouth (fingers) that just threatened.

160 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:18:48pm

re: #151 Killgore Trout

Thanks for wasting my time typing an honest reply to your question.

I don't think it was wasted.

161 albusteve  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:18:59pm

re: #151 Killgore Trout

Thanks for wasting my time typing an honest reply to your question.

agreed

162 Wozza Matter?  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:19:37pm

re: #160 000G

I don't think it was wasted.

It's not a tactic that plays out well here.

163 Killgore Trout  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:20:29pm

re: #118 Charles

I'm getting more sympathetic to the demonstrations myself. I still don't like some of the elements that are involved -- especially the Ron Paul-influenced "End the Fed" idiocy, and the extreme lefties like ANSWER.

But unlike the Tea Parties, this really does seem to be a classic example of a true populist movement. The basic message is that the middle and lower classes are getting increasingly screwed over by an obscenely bloated upper class, and that's a message that resonates.

It doesn't have any appeal to me aside from the broad message. Stewart points out it's essentially the same as the Tea Party. It is more of an honest grass roots movement although it's helped along by ANSWER, Workers World Party and various socialist groups which I don't approve of. I don't like the violence, fighting with cops, etc and the tired 60's era mantras are just silly to me. I just don't get it.

164 makeitstop  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:20:32pm

re: #141 SanFranciscoZionist

"There's no more mooks in the citizenry."

Gotta love it.

Not sure I agree with him, but gotta love it.

Yeah, I kinda giggled at that, ruefully.

But who can argue with his larger point?

165 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:20:35pm

re: #142 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Lindsey Graham On ‘Intimidation’: ‘If You’re A Southern White Guy, It Is Part Of Your Life’

The white man's burden, huh?

Yeah, part of your life of trying to intimidate everyone in your path, enraged because the government is no longer legally permitted to do it for you.

/cry me a river

166 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:21:06pm

re: #155 albusteve

I can't figure out why people are not holding the feds responsible...they write the rules and regs, if banks are criminal why are there no investigations?...because WS and the feds are one in the same, the perfect symbiosis

Most of the 'agendas' I've seen for the OWS (which are largely laundry lists of nonsense) outline things that can only be done by legislation.

The smarter OWSers talk about legislation.

Wall Street may be where the anger is directed, but Wall Street can't and won't negotiate with citizens.

Sooner or later, we go to the 'feds'.

167 Eventual Carrion  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:21:12pm

re: #76 NJDhockeyfan

re: #76 NJDhockeyfan

Go piss up a rope.

I kinda knew you couldn't

168 iossarian  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:21:26pm

re: #158 lawhawk

Fact is that there are problems with both - and both need to be tackled jointly.

If someone had just woken up from a coma and asked you which party to vote for, in order to help fix both government and Wall Street, what would you say?

169 albusteve  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:21:30pm

re: #160 000G

I don't think it was wasted.

bullshit...your question was so stupid I passed it by, then you admit it was loaded anyway?

170 albusteve  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:23:07pm

re: #166 SanFranciscoZionist

Most of the 'agendas' I've seen for the OWS (which are largely laundry lists of nonsense) outline things that can only be done by legislation.

The smarter OWSers talk about legislation.

Wall Street may be where the anger is directed, but Wall Street can't and won't negotiate with citizens.

Sooner or later, we go to the 'feds'.

the sooner the better, which is why this protest doesn't impress me

171 engineer cat  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:24:29pm

re: #155 albusteve

I can't figure out why people are not holding the feds responsible...they write the rules and regs, if banks are criminal why are there no investigations?...because WS and the feds are one in the same, the perfect symbiosis

re: #158 lawhawk

But at the same time there is common ground - TP and OWS recognize that there's a huge issue but they're taking opposite tacts. TP sees government as the problem (so they went ahead and sent their own candidates to DC where they promptly became part of the obstructionist right - blocking actions that would have been considered reasonable and prudent just a few short years ago). OWS sees Wall Street as the prime problem.

Fact is that there are problems with both - and both need to be tackled jointly.

agree

172 [deleted]  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:24:39pm
173 Kragar  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:24:55pm

re: #168 iossarian

If someone had just woken up from a coma and asked you which party to vote for, in order to help fix both government and Wall Street, what would you say?

Caesar.

174 Obdicut  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:25:03pm

re: #169 albusteve

The question of why there are restrictions on the right to assemble and what they are isn't really a dumb question.

175 Simply Sarah  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:25:10pm

re: #168 iossarian

If someone had just woken up from a coma and asked you which party to vote for, in order to help fix both government and Wall Street, what would you say?

Obviously I'm not the one being asked, but if I were to answer this, I'd say it's a bit of a no-win question. I think the Democrats are toothless and often also in the pockets of the same/similar powerful interests, whereas the current Republicans generally come off to me as being outright dangerous. So probably the Democrats, but I'd not exactly be enthusiastic.

176 BishopX  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:25:17pm

re: #170 albusteve

See: [Link: occupydc.org...]

177 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:25:41pm

re: #117 LudwigVanQuixote

Someone should tell Coulter that in the 18th century she would be killed because she was mistaken for a cross dressing man.

Nah, that's b.s.

178 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:26:54pm

re: #177 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

Nah, that's b.s.

Fine fine fine... You are correct, the 18th century was much more tolerant of such things.

179 albusteve  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:26:57pm

re: #172 LudwigVanQuixote

I am so glad you are here... Just earlier, we were talking about posters here who hated government health benefits but considered the ones they received to be something they had earned.

Just like you did.

Care to comment?

you're lying...pretty typical
there is no such post

180 Wozza Matter?  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:27:04pm

re: #175 Simply Sarah

You took the words right out of my mouth. Or off my keyboard.

181 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:27:04pm

re: #142 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Lindsey Graham On ‘Intimidation’: ‘If You’re A Southern White Guy, It Is Part Of Your Life’

The white man's burden, huh?

Apropos White Fright, I haven't seen OrionXP lately. Wonder what he thinks of OWS. He had a rather reasonable conservative angle.

182 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:27:22pm

re: #169 albusteve

bullshit...your question was so stupid I passed it by, then you admit it was loaded anyway?

Loaded?

183 Simply Sarah  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:27:26pm

re: #180 wozzablog

You took the words right out of my mouth. Or off my keyboard.

Which is cleaner?

184 goddamnedfrank  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:27:34pm
185 albusteve  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:27:42pm

re: #174 Obdicut

The question of why there are restrictions on the right to assemble and what they are isn't really a dumb question.

I'll accept that, naive would have been a better word

186 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:28:35pm

re: #168 iossarian

If someone had just woken up from a coma and asked you which party to vote for, in order to help fix both government and Wall Street, what would you say?

That's a tough one. I don't know a lot of single-issue voters, except for some cons I know online (e.g. taxes, antiabortion, etc.)

If that were the only issue, I would have to go with NOTA, looking over the past 30 years.

187 kirkspencer  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:28:40pm

re: #163 Killgore Trout

It doesn't have any appeal to me aside from the broad message. Stewart points out it's essentially the same as the Tea Party. It is more of an honest grass roots movement although it's helped along by ANSWER, Workers World Party and various socialist groups which I don't approve of. I don't like the violence, fighting with cops, etc and the tired 60's era mantras are just silly to me. I just don't get it.

Really? Then you're not hurting enough.

I'll remind you that even assuming 5% unemployment is "normal", we've got 10% official and as high as 15% of the public unemployed. Followed the rules and still losing their homes, watching their loved ones NOT get medical care because they can't afford it, not able to keep food on the table without listening to some pompous ass tell them they need to find jesus or need to get serious about finding work.

And then some idiot gets on a balcony and toasts us with champagne, or laughs and declaims they're one of the 1%. What crosses my mind in this situation?

"Qu'ils mangent de la brioche."

Not what she said, but the attitude wasn't unique and caused a whole lot of bloodshed.

Anger? yep. The Tea Party's anger was successfully rerouted by various interests. maybe the OWS anger will be, too. But if things don't get taken care of the anger won't go away.

And if you can't see why all the anger, maybe you're just not looking very hard.

188 [deleted]  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:28:47pm
189 engineer cat  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:28:48pm

steve jobs never whined about how high taxes and regulations were creating an "anti business climate", and nothing in "gummint" kept him from creating the most innovative products and one of the most profitable companies in this country in the past 30 years

190 iossarian  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:29:07pm

re: #175 Simply Sarah

Obviously I'm not the one being asked, but if I were to answer this, I'd say it's a bit of a no-win question. I think the Democrats are toothless and often also in the pockets of the same/similar powerful interests, whereas the current Republicans generally come off to me as being outright dangerous. So probably the Democrats, but I'd not exactly be enthusiastic.

Emphasis mine. Do you think voting Democratic would tend to make the Democrats more, or less, toothless?

191 lawhawk  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:29:17pm

re: #168 iossarian

Good question, and I'd lean Democrat. The GOP has shown nothing to deal with the mess of things. Cutting taxes by itself as a be-all and end-all isn't a solution. Cutting government by itself isn't a solution either.

Solutions are far more nuanced than a simple tax/spend or cut taxes/smaller government mantra allows - and fact is that most people understand this, even if their electoral preferences don't always show it. Most recent polls show that the public is open to a combination of higher taxes on "rich" with spending cuts to get the budgetary situation under control.

And it wouldn't be the first time I'd be accused of being a RINO, even though I was a DINO for a long time (and I'm really more conservative on fiscal issues than most Democrats, and more liberal than Republicans would ever admit on social stuff).

192 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:29:55pm

re: #189 engineer dog

steve jobs never whined about how high taxes and regulations were creating an "anti business climate", and nothing in "gummint" kept him from creating the most innovative products and one of the most profitable companies in this country in the past 30 years

And he had all of his shit made in China and shipped in.

He didn't complain. He just had the shit made in China.

193 wrenchwench  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:30:16pm

re: #181 000G

Apropos White Fright, I haven't seen OrionXP lately. Wonder what he thinks of OWS. He had a rather reasonable conservative libertarian angle.

I wonder where he went too. I used to follow his twitter account, but now I don't remember what it was.

194 Kragar  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:30:17pm

re: #189 engineer dog

steve jobs never whined about how high taxes and regulations were creating an "anti business climate", and nothing in "gummint" kept him from creating the most innovative products and one of the most profitable companies in this country in the past 30 years

Especially since he got the manufacturing work transferred to China

195 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:30:19pm

re: #191 lawhawk

Good question, and I'd lean Democrat. The GOP has shown nothing to deal with the mess of things. Cutting taxes by itself as a be-all and end-all isn't a solution. Cutting government by itself isn't a solution either.

Solutions are far more nuanced than a simple tax/spend or cut taxes/smaller government mantra allows - and fact is that most people understand this, even if their electoral preferences don't always show it. Most recent polls show that the public is open to a combination of higher taxes on "rich" with spending cuts to get the budgetary situation under control.

And it wouldn't be the first time I'd be accused of being a RINO, even though I was a DINO for a long time (and I'm really more conservative on fiscal issues than most Democrats, and more liberal than Republicans would ever admit on social stuff).

Stuck in the middle with you in more ways than you know actually.

196 Obdicut  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:30:21pm

re: #175 Simply Sarah

I really think a lot of the problem is that the political class are people who have made it in the US. They're successful. They make a pretty good salary, have perks, health care, and after they're out, they can get lobbying jobs.

It can't help but insulate them from the problems of actual Americans. They can try to be empathetic, and they should, but even the ones who grew up poor-- there's a big difference between being poor, and having been poor. Especially since there's a great temptation to say that it makes you better, that you rose out of being poor, that you overcame that; it can actually make you less sympathetic to others.

There's no really good solution to this problem, but it should be acknowledged. It's on thing the Tea Party says that's true: the political class are out of touch. But it's not solved by replacing them.

197 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:30:41pm

re: #184 goddamnedfrank

You thought the video of the cop pepper spraying those unarmed and unthreatening women was pretty funny.

Cons love state-sponsored violence against protesters. They did in the 60s and they still do, today. Probably because they lost the battles of the 60s. 1860s, too. /

198 bratwurst  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:31:10pm

re: #188 LudwigVanQuixote

Ohhh I am surely not the only one who remembers those threads. I don't have the patience to sift through looking for them, Stevo, but don't lie. You will get caught out.

Could you be seeking this?

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

199 lawhawk  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:31:37pm

re: #195 LudwigVanQuixote

Just as long as there are clowns to the left, jokers on the right, and Mr. Blonde doesn't have a razor blade.

200 Wozza Matter?  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:31:55pm

re: #183 Simply Sarah

Which is cleaner?

I flossed this morning, but the keyboard is a mess.

201 Kragar  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:32:05pm

re: #197 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

Cons love state-sponsored violence against protesters. They did in the 60s and they still do, today. Probably because they lost the battles of the 60s. 1860s, too. /

How long before we hear someone asking when they can get another Kent State?

202 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:32:09pm

re: #190 iossarian

Emphasis mine. Do you think voting Democratic would tend to make the Democrats more, or less, toothless?

Don't get me wrong, I have been excruciatingly clear on who I will vote for... but the Dems are a fractured and weak party. Even when they held both houses and the presidency, they proved to have all the spine of a jellyfish.

203 iossarian  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:32:37pm

I'll ask my question another way: which do people think would be better for the US, as an outcome of the 2012 elections:

Option A: President Obama, 70 Democrats in the Senate (across the current D spectrum), 300 Democrats in the House (ditto)

Option B: President Romney, 70 Republicans in the Senate, 300 Republicans in the House

204 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:32:41pm

re: #192 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

And he had all of his shit made in China and shipped in.

He didn't complain. He just had the shit made in China.

At least he didn't have the shit made in China and then act like a martyr. That is something, these days.

205 Kragar  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:32:41pm

re: #200 wozzablog

I flossed this morning, but the keyboard is a mess.

Board chow is necessary for when you have to work late.

206 iossarian  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:32:54pm

Upding this comment for option A

207 iossarian  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:33:02pm

Upding this comment for option B

208 CuriousLurker  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:33:16pm

re: #174 Obdicut

The question of why there are restrictions on the right to assemble and what they are isn't really a dumb question.

I'd agree if the question had been asked out of a sincere desire to better understand something instead of as a test of "how far the understanding of people here extended". It's been my experience that the majority of the folks here, whether I agree with them or not, tend to be pretty well informed about things like that.

209 [deleted]  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:33:17pm
210 Simply Sarah  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:33:21pm

re: #190 iossarian

Emphasis mine. Do you think voting Democratic would tend to make the Democrats more, or less, toothless?

Hard to say. I know that having people vote for the GOP over them tends to make them more toothless, since the assumption appears to be "People want what they are selling". On the other hand, rewarding them for being toothless probably just encourages it. This is why Elizabeth Warren will have to be my replacement for not being able to vote for Kennedy again. And it'll feel better than voting for Coakley.

211 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:33:28pm

re: #189 engineer dog

That must've been a set up... even I caught that.

Back to work. Somebody's gotta pay for the guy who has to shovel up protester's feces and water bottles.

212 Obdicut  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:34:17pm

re: #208 CuriousLurker

Oh, I didn't see that bit. Yeah, that's dumb.

213 albusteve  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:34:39pm

re: #198 bratwurst

Could you be seeking this?

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

I don't see 'hated govt health benefits' in there do you?...or even know what the phrase is supposed to mean?

214 goddamnedfrank  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:34:53pm

re: #197 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

Cons love state-sponsored violence against protesters. They did in the 60s and they still do, today. Probably because they lost the battles of the 60s. 1860s, too. /

I just love watching the mental filters at work. He somehow saw "marxists with trust funds" where there was no tangible reason to ascribe either term. The video showed unarmed women, who as it turns out weren't arrested.

215 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:35:11pm

re: #204 SanFranciscoZionist

At least he didn't have the shit made in China and then act like a martyr. That is something, these days.

No. But, some of the people who could have been building those products are wandering around in NYC.

216 Simply Sarah  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:35:43pm

re: #206 iossarian

Upding this comment for option A

You crafty bastard!

217 lawhawk  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:36:09pm

re: #202 LudwigVanQuixote

Maybe the issue was priorities - was HCR the top priority to be passed when the economy was still in a recession, or should the political capital have been spent on getting further stimulus via infrastructure to outlast the downward portion of the recessionary cycle?

You can argue that the two were equal priorities and that both could have been passed, but a President has limited capital to push on issues, and the economy remains the top priority (and overriding issue in voters' minds). Did getting HCR limit the President's ability to push for further economic assistance/programs? Absolutely.

Was HCR flawed? Absolutely. But the changes underway are an improvement on the system that was in place (with a cost that is still out of control - and may end up be a limiting factor in how much improvement takes place).

218 Kragar  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:36:22pm

re: #215 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

No. But, some of the people who could have been building those products are wandering around in NYC.

But...government regulations and the minimum wage forced him to ship those jobs oveseas.
///

219 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:36:27pm

re: #178 LudwigVanQuixote

Fine fine fine... You are correct, the 18th century was much more tolerant of such things.

There really is no need to harp on Coulter for what you perceive to be some violation of standard gender looks. It doesn't help the point any. In fact, quite the opposite.

220 iossarian  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:36:30pm

re: #216 Simply Sarah

You crafty bastard!

Heh. Note that I'm not saying "perfect", just "better". Hence the guy waking up from the coma. Knowing nothing, which way should he vote?

221 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:36:41pm

re: #201 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

How long before we hear someone asking when they can get another Kent State?

I think that's exactly what the worst of them are hoping for.

Oddly, at the same time, they put up a picture of some 18 year old young woman in a green hat with ears, to pillory as if she's some kind of threat to them.

They resent anyone who stands in the way of their states rights/police state ideals.

222 [deleted]  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:37:09pm
223 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:37:32pm

re: #215 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

No. But, some of the people who could have been building those products are wandering around in NYC.

Well, yeah. That's our basic problem, or one of them.

If we committed as a nation to bringing manufacturing back to the US, at a living, union wage...I don't know what would happen, but it would sure be fun to see us try.

224 wrenchwench  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:38:00pm

re: #200 wozzablog

I flossed this morning, but the keyboard is a mess.

I love my black keyboard. And my black phones.

225 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:38:00pm

The anti-politics of Occupy Wall Street

you will be smarter for having read this

To understand #OccupyWallStreet, you have to get that it is not a media object or a march. It is first and foremost, a church of dissent, a space made sacred by a community. But like Medieval churches, it is also now the physical center of that community. It has become many things. Public square. Carnival. Place to get news. Daycare center. Health care center. Concert venue. Library. Performance space. School.

This kind of power, the power that comes from the trust and love of other people, doesn’t emerge from a list of policy demands. It comes from the formation of a public, through the appreciation and sharing of a public space. It takes work, but the result is… #OccupyWallStreet. Or the camps in Israel, or Spain, or Wisconsin, or elsewhere there are mini-civilizations sprouting up.

just sayin', thinking is more useful than just reacting

226 Obdicut  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:38:00pm

re: #215 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I feel like we missed a big window, back when outsourcing started getting really big. A window that would have allowed us either to use our economic power to force better working conditions in China, or to keep manufacturing jobs-- actual jobs, not just automation-- here at home. It's going to be very hard to claw it back now. I think whoever said that a lot depends on workers in China getting organized and demanding better conditions is right. And even now China is building factories in Africa; they're looking to outsource too.

227 bratwurst  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:38:09pm

re: #209 LudwigVanQuixote

Why thank you!

So Stevo... There is your quote that you lied about not existing...

care to comment?

Don't often like to stir the pot, but was very disappointed the other night when Steve was allowed to get away with asserting that he had never said anything bad about Obama personally...maybe some people don't consider being called "a drooling idiot" a personal insult, I don't know.

228 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:38:44pm

re: #225 WindUpBird

The premise of their politics is that #OccupyWallStreet isn’t designed to fit into your TV or newspaper. Nothing human really is, which is why our politics is so utterly deformed. It’s why they don’t want to be “on message” – what kind of human society can truly be reduced to a slogan? I’m not sure I agree with their political premise. But in the carnival they have created, in the liveliness and beauty and art and fun and utter humanity of it all, they make a damn good case.

229 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:38:55pm

re: #218 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

But...government regulations and the minimum wage forced him to ship those jobs oveseas.
///

I am fairly certain that Apple didn't do it because reasons other than cheap labor and low regulations.

230 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:39:29pm

re: #226 Obdicut

I love you, man.

231 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:40:48pm

re: #217 lawhawk

Maybe the issue was priorities - was HCR the top priority to be passed when the economy was still in a recession, or should the political capital have been spent on getting further stimulus via infrastructure to outlast the downward portion of the recessionary cycle?

You can argue that the two were equal priorities and that both could have been passed, but a President has limited capital to push on issues, and the economy remains the top priority (and overriding issue in voters' minds). Did getting HCR limit the President's ability to push for further economic assistance/programs? Absolutely.

Was HCR flawed? Absolutely. But the changes underway are an improvement on the system that was in place (with a cost that is still out of control - and may end up be a limiting factor in how much improvement takes place).

I have to agree. Passing a budget was first and foremost the most important thing they could have done. Climate matters above all else, because if we don't fix that, healthcare and taxes and the government really quite literally, won't eventually matter.

But I also think it is really important that the Dems could never get a consistent message going to save their lives. They could never stand up to all the lies and the propaganda from Fox as a party, only as disparate and confused sounding individuals. They all had to put their little stamps on things and cover their own fiefdoms first to the detriment of bills. Worse they continued to give away concession after concession to a party that clearly said it would not negotiate.

232 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:40:51pm

re: #230 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I love you, man.

If you start the group hugs, I'm leaving.

233 Obdicut  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:41:00pm

re: #230 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Let's go hang out in an Occupied park together and braid each other's hair.

Which I have no idea how to do, so there better be some scissors around.

234 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:41:02pm

re: #193 wrenchwench

I wonder where he went too. I used to follow his twitter account, but now I don't remember what it was.

It's true his general outlook was libertarian, but he did have genuine appreciation for some social conservative concerns.

235 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:41:16pm

re: #225 WindUpBird

The anti-politics of Occupy Wall Street

you will be smarter for having read this

just sayin', thinking is more useful than just reacting

Reaction, after some thought: eye roll.

Jaysus, Bird, you're my age, you've read this sort of thing before.

236 lawhawk  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:41:21pm

re: #203 iossarian

Four other options you need to consider:

C) Obama as President with a Republican House and Democratic Senate
D) Romney as President with a Republican House and Democratic Senate
E) Obama as President with Democrat House and Republican Senate
F) Romney as President with a Democrat House and Republican Senate

With the way the public has been voting - a split Executive/Legislature between the parties is more the norm.

What preference I want is actually irrelevant considering that it ignores what the voters have been doing as an aggregate. I think we can expect the House to shift back to the Democrats and the Senate might change hands - or tighten up so that the swing votes have more sway (say hello to a new Gang of 4/6/8 or what have you).

237 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:41:55pm

re: #219 000G

There really is no need to harp on Coulter for what you perceive to be some violation of standard gender looks. It doesn't help the point any. In fact, quite the opposite.

Ohhh... for crying out loud... Is your purpose to be the new PC police?

238 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:41:58pm

re: #232 EmmmieG

If you start the group hugs, I'm leaving.

Awkward - overly long -

239 Wozza Matter?  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:42:01pm

BBL

Dinner.

240 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:42:04pm

re: #233 Obdicut

Let's go hang out in an Occupied park together and braid each other's hair.

Which I have no idea how to do, so there better be some scissors around.

You really don't know how to braid if you think you need scissors.

241 lawhawk  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:42:25pm

re: #223 SanFranciscoZionist

Ford's going to be doing just that. They're committing to bringing some of the jobs back to the US under their latest UAW deal.

So, it can be done. The companies just have to recognize the value and utility of doing it.

242 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:42:35pm

re: #194 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Foxconn, more specifically.

Apropos: [Link: www.bloomberg.com...]

243 Killgore Trout  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:42:55pm

re: #184 goddamnedfrank

Like I said, I don't have much sympathy for the protesters. Fighting with cops, blocking traffic, interfering with arrests. This is how people get hurt and it's not in the spirit of civil disobedience. Seriously, more people should read it. The concept has been bastardized by the modern left.

244 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:43:07pm

re: #241 lawhawk

Ford's going to be doing just that. They're committing to bringing some of the jobs back to the US under their latest UAW deal.

So, it can be done. The companies just have to recognize the value and utility of doing it.

Thanks for mentioning. I'll have to take a look at that.

245 lostlakehiker  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:43:10pm

re: #22 iossarian

No, conservatives are evil because they think poor people should be left to die of easily preventable illnesses.

Violent nutters, whatever their political bent, don't necessarily tell you much about the mainstream of either movement, though it is worth noting that in general, right-wing rhetoric of the past 10 years has been much more violent than left-wing rhetoric.

What is really worth noting is that in the last 10 years, and really, for longer than that, there has been effectively no violence from either wing. Lone nutters, as everybody agrees, don't count. So, what would count? A conspiracy. A series of political assassinations, aligned to a single end. A series of inexplicable deaths which conveniently advantage one party or the other.

Ballot boxes seized by one party or the other. Voters prevented, by mob threat, from voting.

All these things are almost par for the course in many parts of the world. We just don't see them here. Our elections are fought out over the airwaves, on cable TV and talk radio and newspaper editorials and word of mouth. If they're very close, they're fought out in the courts, and, who knows, maybe a few ballots are tampered with, just enough to put somebody over the top. Or maybe not. That sort of thing is hard to prove, and even if it did happen from time to time, it wouldn't exactly be violence.

The big picture is that we have free and fair elections, people can safely speak their minds, and about the worst that one can fear, in hotly contested elections, is lawn signs stolen and perhaps some non-accidental flat tires. Not that even that is OK, but as violence goes, it's small beer.

246 Killgore Trout  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:43:48pm

re: #187 kirkspencer

Really? Then you're not hurting enough.

Don't tell me how much i'm hurting or not hurting. You have no idea.

247 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:44:01pm

re: #231 LudwigVanQuixote

The reason that the various parties have all sounded so schizophrenic is that they are trying to say what their constituents want. Their constituents happen to be thousands or even millions of separate individuals, with different ways of thinking and interests, so of course it's going to come out schizo.

Until we find someone who presents their own strong message, we're stuck with schizo.

248 kirkspencer  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:44:35pm

re: #226 Obdicut

I feel like we missed a big window, back when outsourcing started getting really big. A window that would have allowed us either to use our economic power to force better working conditions in China, or to keep manufacturing jobs-- actual jobs, not just automation-- here at home. It's going to be very hard to claw it back now. I think whoever said that a lot depends on workers in China getting organized and demanding better conditions is right. And even now China is building factories in Africa; they're looking to outsource too.

We did miss the window. But that's because the outsourcing had two objectives. The obvious one was the pursuit of greater profit. But there were a lot of warnings of the problems, most of which occurred, and which have cost at least as much. If it'd been solely profit fewer might have outsourced.

Meet objective two: break the unions. Break their pesky ability to negotiate pay and benefits, to protect the retirement funds (all that wasted capital just sitting there instead of in MY bank account), etc.

The unions have no power to negotiate for overseas employees, and the various laws that prevent moving to Right to Fire Work states don't stop overseas movement.

249 Kragar  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:44:35pm

re: #232 EmmmieG

If you start the group hugs, I'm leaving.

People used to hate me in the barracks because when they would start grabassing and wrestling, I'd ask "Who needs a hug?" and walk towards them ready to hug. Freaked them out and they'd stop fucking around when I started asking.

250 iossarian  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:44:45pm

re: #236 lawhawk

Four other options you need to consider:

C) Obama as President with a Republican House and Democratic Senate
D) Romney as President with a Republican House and Democratic Senate
E) Obama as President with Democrat House and Republican Senate
F) Romney as President with a Democrat House and Republican Senate

That's a bit of a dodge from my question. Obviously there are other options - I was simply asking which you thought would be better: total Democratic control or total Republican control, given today's political spectrum and how the Washington branches of the parties fit within it.

251 Charles Johnson  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:44:59pm

Here we go again.

252 Simply Sarah  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:45:04pm

re: #237 LudwigVanQuixote

Ohhh... for crying out loud... Is your purpose to be the new PC police?

I don't want to flip out into queer feminist mode, but I don't think finding that sort of comment troubling and offensive has anything to do with being 'PC police'.

253 Charles Johnson  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:45:22pm

I'm starting to feel very disrespected by you, LVQ.

254 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:45:54pm

re: #178 LudwigVanQuixote

Fine fine fine... You are correct, the 18th century was much more tolerant of such things.

It's the 21st c - trannybaiting is for the 18th.

255 blueraven  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:46:00pm

re: #209 LudwigVanQuixote

I'm sorry, but digging into someones private affairs and using it as a weapon, should be off limits here.

256 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:46:09pm

re: #237 LudwigVanQuixote

Ohhh... for crying out loud... Is your purpose to be the new PC police?

You are welcome to make an ass out of yourself all you want ("Coulter looks like a man hur hur, that means social conservatives from 200 years ago would think of her as a transvestite and kill her hur hur") and drag down the integrity of your argument with it. I am not going to stop you. But I will point out to you what you are doing.

257 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:46:36pm

re: #247 EmmmieG

The reason that the various parties have all sounded so schizophrenic is that they are trying to say what their constituents want. Their constituents happen to be thousands or even millions of separate individuals, with different ways of thinking and interests, so of course it's going to come out schizo.

Until we find someone who presents their own strong message, we're stuck with schizo.

I agree to some extent. However, you've just implied what I have been talking about. Strong and consistent messages come from leaders with visions and spines and moral courage to do what they think is right - not gutless polls who live and die on every poll and hence by attempting to please all the time and offend none of the time, never take a stand when a stand is needed.

258 Kragar  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:46:40pm

re: #255 blueraven

I'm sorry, but digging into someones private affairs and using it as a weapon, should be off limits here.

I leave that sort of shit to Breitbart.

259 Obdicut  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:47:31pm

re: #247 EmmmieG

The reason that the various parties have all sounded so schizophrenic is that they are trying to say what their constituents want. Their constituents happen to be thousands or even millions of separate individuals, with different ways of thinking and interests, so of course it's going to come out schizo.

Until we find someone who presents their own strong message, we're stuck with schizo.

Except that they don't represent their constituents, especially not the GOP. Polling on raising taxes on the wealthy, for example, clearly shows that they want it raised, even in GOP districts; and yet the GOP fights against that.

However, those same GOP people will vote the way that person wants on other issues. I feel the GOP uses the social issues it champions to take advantage of its constituents, and fails to represent them on economic issues.

260 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:49:00pm

re: #254 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

It's the 21st c - trannybaiting is for the 18th.

Edward Hyde was a cross-dresser in the eighteenth century--and he was Royal Governor of New York and New Jersey.

He was also, reportedly, way too into his wife's ears, and a really lousy governor, but what the hell. You can't have everything.

261 kirkspencer  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:49:04pm

re: #246 Killgore Trout

Don't tell me how much i'm hurting or not hurting. You have no idea.

I didn't say you weren't hurting. I said that if you can't see why people are angry enough to be gathering and shouting then you aren't hurting enough.

As bad off as I am I know there are people worse. But I can, through a fairly short series of steps, determine that a lot of my problems are influenced by if not directly caused by the 1 percenters. And I've got this opinion about people who will harm or allow harm to my wife and daughter so they can be a little richer.

262 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:49:04pm

re: #196 Obdicut

There's no really good solution to this problem, but it should be acknowledged. It's one thing the Tea Party says that's true: the political class are out of touch. But it's not solved by replacing them.

It's certainly not helped by a race to the bottom in political interaction in order to reach the holy grail of ideological purity, which seems to be the TGOP mission statement. If OWS goes down that road – and it very well might –, I'll join KT and SFZ.

263 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:49:13pm

re: #256 000G

Has anyone ever told you that you much much too literal minded and dogmatic?

264 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:50:19pm

re: #253 Charles

I'm starting to feel very disrespected by you, LVQ.

None intended... I think I'll sign off.

265 goddamnedfrank  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:50:31pm

re: #243 Killgore Trout

Like I said, I don't have much sympathy for the protesters. Fighting with cops, blocking traffic, interfering with arrests. This is how people get hurt and it's not in the spirit of civil disobedience. Seriously, more people should read it. The concept has been bastardized by the modern left.

But why invent derogatory terms like marxists with trust funds? It strikes me that the last time you showed this little sympathy for a protestor was when that Code Pink lady got her neck stomped on by one of Ron Paul's goons, after she'd been pinned and subdued. It's possible to disagree with people without demeaning them, giving them simplistic and likely false labels, and cheering when they're physically abused. You've made a choice to cheer on the violence, in cases where there's no plausible justification. That's just creepy.

266 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:51:10pm

re: #259 Obdicut

This is going to be very Hallmark-y, so forgive me:

Statesmen (I refuse to say Statespersons) are the leaders their constituents need, not the leaders their constituents want.*

Now, the question is: how do we get such a person elected. Better education in the schools might help.

*If you're wondering where I'm getting this, my original thought contained the phrase "parents." I am at this moment referring a very stupid fight over sunglasses. In October. In Oregon. The sun won't be out for another six months. Right now I am thinking the boys need a kick in the tush.

267 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:51:18pm

re: #237 LudwigVanQuixote

Ohhh... for crying out loud... Is your purpose to be the new PC police?

It's not PC police. Trannybaiting one's opponents is weak sauce.

Everything she spews out of her mouth or keyboard is worthy of criticism on its own lack of merit. She is a heinous person regardless of her perceived sexuality or gender. BTW, I don't give two cruds who thinks it's "pc" of me to say so.

268 Jimmi the Grey  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:51:18pm

re: #116 NJDhockeyfan

Ron Paul? Are fucking kidding me? That's what all this whining is all about, the Ron Paul crowd? He's just a tiny canker sore in Washington with a Republican Party pin.

LOL!!

I think what you're missing is that it didn't happen at a Ron Paul rally, but an a GOP primary debate. Wasn't a bunch of Paulbots that cheered this, but GOP potential voters.

269 lostlakehiker  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:51:27pm

re: #223 SanFranciscoZionist

Well, yeah. That's our basic problem, or one of them.

If we committed as a nation to bringing manufacturing back to the US, at a living, union wage...I don't know what would happen, but it would sure be fun to see us try.

A Quixotic project. Manufacturing output in the U.S. is up, decade over decade. Manufacturing employment is falling worldwide. Even in China. We are in the process of doing to manufacturing what we did in the last century to agriculture: we're getting it down to a routine grind that doesn't require many man-hours of input.

It wouldn't be any fun at all to see us try, and fail. Which is the real alternative to trying something else, something that might work.

270 recusancy  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:52:00pm

re: #202 LudwigVanQuixote

Don't get me wrong, I have been excruciatingly clear on who I will vote for... but the Dems are a fractured and weak party. Even when they held both houses and the presidency, they proved to have all the spine of a jellyfish.

That's more an outcome of having a Senate where each state gets equal representation regardless of population size.

271 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:52:52pm

re: #208 CuriousLurker

It wasn't so much a "test" as a genuine curiosity. And I never pretend that my knowledge is the end-all and be-all of all things, so when asking I was also open to learn something new.

272 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:53:07pm

re: #266 EmmmieG

referee-ing

273 Simply Sarah  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:53:30pm

re: #267 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

It's not PC police. Trannybaiting one's opponents is weak sauce.

Everything she spews out of her mouth or keyboard is worthy of criticism on its own lack of merit. She is a heinous person regardless of her perceived sexuality or gender. BTW, I don't give two cruds who thinks it's "pc" of me to say so.

I agree with your sentiment, but I do have to admit that the term "trannybaiting" *does* make me a bit uneasy.

274 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:53:47pm

re: #262 000G

It's certainly not helped by a race to the bottom in political interaction in order to reach the holy grail of ideological purity, which seems to be the TGOP mission statement. If OWS goes down that road – and it very well might –, I'll join KT and SFZ.

I'm not sure I'm quite on a page with KT. I'm observing what's going on. I have some concerns about where they might go, but my strongest sense is that they, as a group, aren't going much of anywhere.

If I turn out to be very mistaken, that will be nice, because God knows, we need a functioning left wing in this country.

275 iossarian  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:53:58pm

re: #269 lostlakehiker

A Quixotic project. Manufacturing output in the U.S. is up, decade over decade. Manufacturing employment is falling worldwide. Even in China. We are in the process of doing to manufacturing what we did in the last century to agriculture: we're getting it down to a routine grind that doesn't require many man-hours of input.

It wouldn't be any fun at all to see us try, and fail. Which is the real alternative to trying something else, something that might work.

I somewhat agree with this. The problem is not necessarily that jobs have gone (bear with me): it's that the gains in productivity that have led to a decline in the number of hours of work necessary to support our standard of living have not been shared equitably.

276 Obdicut  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:56:03pm

re: #270 recusancy

That's more an outcome of having a Senate where each state gets equal representation regardless of population size.

That's a very good point, and one that doesn't get talked about enough.

As a citizen of first California, and then New York, I am vastly under-represented, in the Senate, compared to someone from Wyoming, or Georgia, or Missisippi, or, well, a ton of other states.

The states are a totally arbitrary level of government. They don't have anything meaningful or sacred to their divisions. Sure, it's nifty to have them as 'laboratories of democracy', if they actually functioned that way, but the number of times you have states copying each other's good programs is rather low. Mostly, what you get is the factionalism in the Senate that comes from people from very non-populous states holding equal power to those from populous ones.

In addition, if I want to get the attention of my senator, I have to work amazingly hard to do so. Someone from Montana has a much easier task; there's simply fewer people trying to do the same thing.

Fixing this would be nearly impossible, but it's something we need to do, eventually.

277 Amory Blaine  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:56:14pm

I'm torn about the protests myself. Mostly as a result of Killgore Trouts balanced approach at viewing the issue placing a moderate bug in my head. We in Wisconsin are in full battle mode, kind of got the ball rolling and I hope someone takes control of the more extreme elements that I keep hearing about at OWS. I'd hate to have all the hard work of the message of, you know, the middle class and workers trying to rise up to protect their dwindling resources lost because of the fringe.

We're still trying to remove Walker from office. I want to see this movement help,, not hurt that cause.

278 Killgore Trout  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:56:54pm

re: #261 kirkspencer

I didn't say you weren't hurting. I said that if you can't see why people are angry enough to be gathering and shouting then you aren't hurting enough.

People with iphones, laptops and enough free time to live in a park for three weeks? People occupying wall street are not poor. I can guarantee you I make less money than almost all of them. Once again, don;t tell me what I know or how much I'm hurting. I won;t respond to anymore strawmen.

279 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:57:01pm

Off-topic weirdness: We use tracfone because I don't use my phone enough to justify a monthly contract. I just added the year's worth of service again.

My next due date came up one day less than last year. (i.e. from Oct 15, 2011 to Oct 14, 2012)

????

Then I remembered. Leap year. I bought 365 days, not 1 year.

I wonder if anything else will be affected.

I'm probably boring everyone else.

280 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:57:20pm

re: #265 goddamnedfrank

It strikes me that the last time you showed this little sympathy for a protestor was when that Code Pink lady got her neck stomped on by one of Ron Paul's goons, after she'd been pinned and subdued.

I wasn't here for that, but I'm not surprised in the least to hear that was the reaction.

BTW it was a Kland Paul (R - Klan) goon, not Ron Paul (R - Stormfront).

281 kirkspencer  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:58:04pm

re: #269 lostlakehiker

A Quixotic project. Manufacturing output in the U.S. is up, decade over decade. Manufacturing employment is falling worldwide. Even in China. We are in the process of doing to manufacturing what we did in the last century to agriculture: we're getting it down to a routine grind that doesn't require many man-hours of input.

It wouldn't be any fun at all to see us try, and fail. Which is the real alternative to trying something else, something that might work.

What we should be noticing is that the automation and processes that did in manufacturing employment are coming soon to a white collar job near you.

Science fiction's had stories about it for (literally) decades: what happens when only a handful of manhours of work are required to care for our needs?

We've gone through it before, and it'll be no easier this time. At core the two extremes are obvious: either some work a lot while the rest idle, or everyone works fewer total hours. Depending on how it gets there, the former will either be autocrats or slaves to the rest, which is why I rather prefer the latter solution.

282 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:58:43pm

re: #278 Killgore Trout

People with iphones, laptops and enough free time to live in a park for three weeks? People occupying wall street are not poor. I can guarantee you I make less money than almost all of them. Once again, don;t tell me what I know or how much I'm hurting. I won;t respond to anymore strawmen.

Well, if the frogs return, you'll be happy for at least one day.

283 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:58:53pm

re: #226 Obdicut

I think whoever said that a lot depends on workers in China getting organized and demanding better conditions is right.

That was me.

And even now China is building factories in Africa; they're looking to outsource too.

Yeah, their "middle class" is getting too big.

Agree about Africa, too. It will be very interesting in the next couple of decades, I predict.

284 recusancy  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:00:31pm

re: #277 Amory Blaine

I'm torn about the protests myself. Mostly as a result of Killgore Trouts balanced approach at viewing the issue placing a moderate bug in my head. We in Wisconsin are in full battle mode, kind of got the ball rolling and I hope someone takes control of the more extreme elements that I keep hearing about at OWS. I'd hate to have all the hard work of the message of, you know, the middle class and workers trying to rise up to protect their dwindling resources lost because of the fringe.

We're still trying to remove Walker from office. I want to see this movement help,, not hurt that cause.

Then join the movement and don't let KT make up your mind for you. If you join you can help move it in the right direction. The reason these things can become overtaken by the crazies is because they engage. They are active. And good luck to you in WI! :)

285 Killgore Trout  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:00:44pm

re: #277 Amory Blaine

I'm torn about the protests myself. Mostly as a result of Killgore Trouts balanced approach at viewing the issue placing a moderate bug in my head. We in Wisconsin are in full battle mode, kind of got the ball rolling and I hope someone takes control of the more extreme elements that I keep hearing about at OWS. I'd hate to have all the hard work of the message of, you know, the middle class and workers trying to rise up to protect their dwindling resources lost because of the fringe.

We're still trying to remove Walker from office. I want to see this movement help,, not hurt that cause.

I think the Wisconsin protests are a good example to bring up. Sure, there were radical socialists and assorted idiots who showed up to the protests but they weren't the organizers. The Wisconsin protests were a reaction to a policy by the people being effected not just a random assortment of generally disgruntled partisans. At least for me there's a big difference.

286 Obdicut  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:01:02pm

re: #278 Killgore Trout

I know that you're hurting. But I finally did get around to checking out the protests, and there are plenty of people there who are broke. I met a lot of barristas, waitresses, home health aides, and the like. A lot of people living paycheck to paycheck, a lot of people with part-time jobs and no health care. It's not just students and trust funders. Definitely not.


There defintely were ANSWER and WWP and Adbuster jerks there. But most of the people I talked to didn't know who those organizations actually were.

I'll do a page on it later.

287 lostlakehiker  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:01:39pm

re: #155 albusteve

I can't figure out why people are not holding the feds responsible...they write the rules and regs, if banks are criminal why are there no investigations?...because WS and the feds are one in the same, the perfect symbiosis

Indeed. There's even a book out, giving proof. "Reckless Endangerment".

288 Amory Blaine  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:02:18pm

re: #284 recusancy

I'm already in a movement. I marched this winter and spring. Probably will again. I'm waiting for my recall clipboard. :)

289 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:02:45pm

re: #273 Simply Sarah

I agree with your sentiment, but I do have to admit that the term "trannybaiting" *does* make me a bit uneasy.

Why does it make you uneasy?

I typically write out social slurs like that, myself.

290 blueraven  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:02:50pm

re: #286 Obdicut

I know that you're hurting. But I finally did get around to checking out the protests, and there are plenty of people there who are broke. I met a lot of barristas, waitresses, home health aides, and the like. A lot of people living paycheck to paycheck, a lot of people with part-time jobs and no health care. It's not just students and trust funders. Definitely not.

There defintely were ANSWER and WWP and Adbuster jerks there. But most of the people I talked to didn't know who those organizations actually were.

I'll do a page on it later.

Looking forward to that Obdicut! It is really great to have first hand observations from you and Lawhawk!

291 Obdicut  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:04:01pm

re: #287 lostlakehiker

Yep. We need much, much stronger regulation of the financial markets and banking houses. The SEC needs to get its teeth back.

With the GOP-- aided by the Dems with ties to the banking industry-- fighting that tooth and nail, it doesn't have much chance of happening. The fiscal reform Obama passed they're already trying to roll back.

292 b_sharp  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:04:19pm

Wow, sorry to be late people, but I missed the bus and had to run all the way.

What did I miss?

293 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:04:30pm

re: #284 recusancy

Then join the movement and don't let KT make up your mind for you.

That's what I've been saying. KT has his take and his opinions, neither of which is balanced or moderate, afaic - those true colors came out in the wash a couple nights ago, as true colors always do. I'd rather see for myself.

294 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:04:40pm

re: #278 Killgore Trout

People with iphones, laptops and enough free time to live in a park for three weeks? People occupying wall street are not poor. I can guarantee you I make less money than almost all of them. Once again, don;t tell me what I know or how much I'm hurting. I won;t respond to anymore strawmen.

They're not exactly the mob at the Bastille, but then again, we're a generation raised with higher expectations.

295 Obdicut  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:05:21pm

re: #278 Killgore Trout

Oh, and for "Don't know whether to laugh of cry" moment, there was a WWP dude i talked to who had no clue that the WWP had supported the Soviet invasion of Hungary. I think the WWP is playing down their Maoist/USSR past.

296 kirkspencer  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:05:59pm

re: #278 Killgore Trout

People with iphones, laptops and enough free time to live in a park for three weeks? People occupying wall street are not poor. I can guarantee you I make less money than almost all of them. Once again, don;t tell me what I know or how much I'm hurting. I won;t respond to anymore strawmen.

Ah. They have refrigerators and indoor plumbing, they're rich enough?

It's your strawman, actually. Some have laptops and iphones, some (perhaps many) don't. You literally have no idea what any of the incomes are, but you're poorer than them all without needing to check.

Let's bring it down to a simpler case. I'm supporting a family of three on my savings, which are almost gone. This year so far I've earned $4,500 and been given another $2000 from friends and family. I don't have a job because they cut the jobs at the library when they reduced taxes - and since everyone is cutting taxes and libraries are taking the biggest hits I'm one of a growing number of unemployed skilled librarians. At 50 and with a master's degree I'm too old and too educated for most positions.

For three. F'ing. Years.

I have a daughter with a major medical issue and a wife with a cancerous lesion and neither of them have seen a doctor in two years because (ready for this) I earned too much money to get medicaid in this state. The cap is $400 a month.

So there you go, Killgore Trout. Tell me how you're worse.

Better yet, tell me why I'm not supposed to be angry at the people who stood up and told me it was too bad and I should have taken another profession.

297 recusancy  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:05:59pm

re: #291 Obdicut

Yep. We need much, much stronger regulation of the financial markets and banking houses. The SEC needs to get its teeth back.

With the GOP-- aided by the Dems with ties to the banking industry-- fighting that tooth and nail, it doesn't have much chance of happening. The fiscal reform Obama passed they're already trying to roll back.

It's why we need people like Elizabeth Warren.

298 iossarian  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:06:02pm

re: #295 Obdicut

Oh, and for "Don't know whether to laugh of cry" moment, there was a WWP dude i talked to who had no clue that the WWP had supported the Soviet invasion of Hungary. I think the WWP is playing down their Maoist/USSR past.

A bit like the Dems and the KKK.

/byrd

299 Simply Sarah  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:06:36pm

re: #289 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

Why does it make you uneasy?

I typically write out social slurs like that, myself.

Mainly because I'm not a huge fan of the term "tranny" to refer to transgender/transsexual people, since it is, as you say, a social slur and is intended to be derogatory.

What would I call it instead? I dunno. Genderbaiting? Offensive?

300 The Ghost of a Flea  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:06:40pm

re: #142 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Lindsey Graham On ‘Intimidation’: ‘If You’re A Southern White Guy, It Is Part Of Your Life’

The white man's burden, huh?

Well...it is a part of their life. You got to practice working the firehose, train your dog to hate black people and maintain a strict diet to keep it hungry but healthy, and learn to do the Superman phone-booth change in and out of your white robes. And a proper burning cross requires mitering skills. Evening mean going to the focus groups to test out new epithets for brown people.

At very least you have to make a lifestyle commitment to the banality of evil.

So yeah, it's a part of your life.

301 Obdicut  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:07:03pm

re: #293 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

And I, for one, get uncomfortable about people who use phrases like 'true colors'.

We're all just humans. We need to work together. Killgore is a crotchety dude and I disagree with a lot of the stuff he says, but passing him off as just another 'con' as you've been doing is a mistake, both on a political and intellectual level.

302 iossarian  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:07:15pm

re: #296 kirkspencer

The truth.

303 lostlakehiker  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:07:58pm

re: #276 Obdicut

That's a very good point, and one that doesn't get talked about enough.

As a citizen of first California, and then New York, I am vastly under-represented, in the Senate, compared to someone from Wyoming, or Georgia, or Missisippi, or, well, a ton of other states.

The states are a totally arbitrary level of government. They don't have anything meaningful or sacred to their divisions. Sure, it's nifty to have them as 'laboratories of democracy', if they actually functioned that way, but the number of times you have states copying each other's good programs is rather low. Mostly, what you get is the factionalism in the Senate that comes from people from very non-populous states holding equal power to those from populous ones.

In addition, if I want to get the attention of my senator, I have to work amazingly hard to do so. Someone from Montana has a much easier task; there's simply fewer people trying to do the same thing.

Fixing this would be nearly impossible, but it's something we need to do, eventually.

As a citizen of CA, your vote is far more likely to swing a presidential election than the vote of somebody from WY. Being part of the nation's largest bloc is very helpful that way. When the shoe is on the other foot, this is well understood, and with some reason, resented: citizens of TX have disproportionate say in what goes into textbooks at the K-12 level because TX buys as a bloc (while CA doesn't.)

How this all settles out isn't easy to calculate. Any state that settles on one party makes itself more or less irrelevant in presidential elections; the battleground, and the favors that are offered, moves to swing states. So from that perspective, the people of CA, TX, and NY simply don't matter. Their votes are a sure thing. But that's not institutionalized. Some other day, matters might be different.

304 Wozza Matter?  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:08:08pm

re: #295 Obdicut

Oh, and for "Don't know whether to laugh of cry" moment, there was a WWP dude i talked to who had no clue that the WWP had supported the Soviet invasion of Hungary. I think the WWP is playing down their Maoist/USSR past.

Oh good grief.

The machinations of which block of the 4th International is disavowing Stalinism at any one particular point in time is one of the oldest hats in the universe.

305 wrenchwench  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:08:39pm

re: #279 EmmmieG

Off-topic weirdness: We use tracfone because I don't use my phone enough to justify a monthly contract. I just added the year's worth of service again.

My next due date came up one day less than last year. (i.e. from Oct 15, 2011 to Oct 14, 2012)

???

Then I remembered. Leap year. I bought 365 days, not 1 year.

I wonder if anything else will be affected.

I'm probably boring everyone else.

I have a niece and nephew who are learning how to drive. They turn 4 next Feb. 29th. (Yes, twins.)

306 Obdicut  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:09:10pm

re: #303 lostlakehiker

As a citizen of CA, your vote is far more likely to swing a presidential election than the vote of somebody from WY.

Huh? Can you explain why you think so?

Did you understand I was talking about the Senate?

307 iossarian  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:09:38pm

re: #304 wozzablog

Oh good grief.

The machinations of which block of the 4th international is disavowing Stalinism is one of the oldest hats in the universe.

Once you're under that bed it's hard to get out you know.

308 Obdicut  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:10:26pm

re: #304 wozzablog

Oh good grief.

The machinations of which block of the 4th international is disavowing Stalinism is one of the oldest hats in the universe.

I was talking with a Chinese friend of mine about the way that the modern Chinese Communist party repudiates 'actions' of Mao without repudiating Mao's ideology at all. It's kind of fascinating.

309 b_sharp  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:11:04pm

Looks like the popcorn machine needs to be filled again. And we're out of sea salt.

310 wrenchwench  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:11:22pm

re: #292 b_sharp

Wow, sorry to be late people, but I missed the bus and had to run all the way.

What did I miss?

The bus.

311 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:11:27pm

re: #305 wrenchwench

I have a niece and nephew who are learning how to drive. They turn 4 next Feb. 29th. (Yes, twins.)

I'll bet they have a lot of fun with that.

312 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:11:56pm

re: #245 lostlakehiker

What is really worth noting is that in the last 10 years, and really, for longer than that, there has been effectively no violence from either wing. Lone nutters, as everybody agrees, don't count. So, what would count? A conspiracy. A series of political assassinations, aligned to a single end. A series of inexplicable deaths which conveniently advantage one party or the other.

Ballot boxes seized by one party or the other. Voters prevented, by mob threat, from voting.

All these things are almost par for the course in many parts of the world. We just don't see them here. Our elections are fought out over the airwaves, on cable TV and talk radio and newspaper editorials and word of mouth. If they're very close, they're fought out in the courts, and, who knows, maybe a few ballots are tampered with, just enough to put somebody over the top. Or maybe not. That sort of thing is hard to prove, and even if it did happen from time to time, it wouldn't exactly be violence.

The big picture is that we have free and fair elections, people can safely speak their minds, and about the worst that one can fear, in hotly contested elections, is lawn signs stolen and perhaps some non-accidental flat tires. Not that even that is OK, but as violence goes, it's small beer.

I don't think you have been paying much attention. Just a few samples:

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]
[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]
[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]
[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

Oh yeah, and then there was this:

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]
[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]
[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]
[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]
[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]
[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]
[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]
[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]
[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]
[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]
[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]
[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

313 iossarian  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:12:03pm

re: #310 wrenchwench

The bus.

*strokes chin, nods approvingly*

314 Kragar  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:12:12pm

re: #309 b_sharp

Looks like the popcorn machine needs to be filled again. And we're out of sea salt.

My wife has informed me I am no longer allowed to strip to this song.

315 Wozza Matter?  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:12:20pm

re: #308 Obdicut

I was talking with a Chinese friend of mine about the way that the modern Chinese party repudiations 'actions' of Mao without repudiating Mao's ideology at all. It's kind of fascinating.

Lip service to the ideal of being "progressive" in the face of a hideous history.

316 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:12:47pm

re: #299 Simply Sarah

Mainly because I'm not a huge fan of the term "tranny" to refer to transgender/transsexual people, since it is, as you say, a social slur and is intended to be derogatory.

What would I call it instead? I dunno. Genderbaiting? Offensive?

Yeah, I've heard all manner of views on the word, having trans friends, myself, and besides having gone to many a Trannyshack over the years. It's not a static term. I don't have any problem not using "trannybaiting" or starring it out if it bothers you, though.

317 b_sharp  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:12:53pm

re: #310 wrenchwench

The bus.

Har de har har har.

318 Obdicut  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:13:19pm

re: #245 lostlakehiker

Abortion bombings and other such attacks are not lone nutters. They have a frightening amount of support. So no, you're wrong.

319 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:13:30pm

re: #295 Obdicut

Oh, and for "Don't know whether to laugh of cry" moment, there was a WWP dude i talked to who had no clue that the WWP had supported the Soviet invasion of Hungary. I think the WWP is playing down their Maoist/USSR past.

The Trots try very hard to match their image and presentation to whatever they can pick up about what you're interested in, sort of like cut-rate Communist Jesuits. WWP probably the same. There's a lot of lying in Communist circles, and a lot of retcon and revisionism.

Was anyone besides you talking to them? They always look kind of lonely when I see them at local demos.

320 iossarian  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:13:44pm

re: #314 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

[Video]My wife has informed me I am no longer allowed to strip to this song.

And on that bombshell, I'm out of here. Farewell comrades.

321 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:14:05pm

re: #246 Killgore Trout

I think he was implying lack of class consciousness and was wording it badly by refering to personal feelings like pain.

Just a guess, though.

322 b_sharp  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:14:19pm

re: #314 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

[Video]My wife has informed me I am no longer allowed to strip to this song.

I'm glad I can't see her point.

323 lostlakehiker  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:14:36pm

re: #306 Obdicut

Huh? Can you explain why you think so?

Did you understand I was talking about the Senate?

Yes, but the Senate is just one part of the govt. So I cede your point, which is indisputable, and widen the conversation to another branch, elections for the executive.

The reason that citizens of a big state are more likely to swing an election when it's close all around is that the probability of the election's being dead even apart from your one vote, while very small in either case, drops like only 1/(Square root of number of voters.) The weight of the state, on the other hand, is such that in an election where all the states are a tossup because every voter is a tossup, winning CA goes a long way toward victory.

324 Wozza Matter?  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:14:36pm

re: #322 b_sharp

I'm glad I can't see her point.

Or Kilgores.

325 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:14:43pm

re: #304 wozzablog

Oh good grief.

The machinations of which block of the 4th International is disavowing Stalinism at any one particular point in time is one of the oldest hats in the universe.

I assume it can't go back earlier than Stalin--OR CAN IT????

326 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:15:05pm

re: #308 Obdicut

I was talking with a Chinese friend of mine about the way that the modern Chinese Communist party repudiates 'actions' of Mao without repudiating Mao's ideology at all. It's kind of fascinating.

"Mistakes were made".

327 Obdicut  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:15:20pm

re: #319 SanFranciscoZionist

They were handing out their literature and people were looking at it kind of confusedly and letting it drop when they were ten feet away, as usual. I'd say they were better received than at most protests, but really, I didn't meet almost anyone who actually knew who they were.

This was just a brief flying visit. I'm going to go for longer tomorrow, if I feel all better.

328 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:15:42pm

re: #301 Obdicut

And I, for one, get uncomfortable about people who use phrases like 'true colors'.

We're all just humans. We need to work together. Killgore is a crotchety dude and I disagree with a lot of the stuff he says, but passing him off as just another 'con' as you've been doing is a mistake, both on a political and intellectual level.

I like a lot of what KT writes, personally. But that take on the OWS protesters has been a "con" take, which has been clear to me from the outset. His tantrum the other night actually came sooner than I though it would, but it wasn't a shock or surprise in the least.

329 b_sharp  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:16:01pm

re: #324 wozzablog

Or Kilgores.

I think Kragar's point is her point.

330 Kragar  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:16:13pm

re: #322 b_sharp

I'm glad I can't see her point.

Some people can't handle the majesty.

331 Wozza Matter?  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:16:38pm

re: #319 SanFranciscoZionist

The Trots try very hard to match their image and presentation to whatever they can pick up about what you're interested in, sort of like cut-rate Communist Jesuits. WWP probably the same. There's a lot of lying in Communist circles, and a lot of retcon and revisionism.

Was anyone besides you talking to them? They always look kind of lonely when I see them at local demos.

Some of the understanding of Stalinist revisionism in the assorted Internationals is equal to that of Holocaust Denial. No one dies in Ukraine from Stalin's famine policies (etc).

Grand delusions abound on the extremes of both sides of the spectrum.

332 Cannadian Club Akbar  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:17:28pm

Afternoon Honcos.

333 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:17:43pm

re: #327 Obdicut

They were handing out their literature and people were looking at it kind of confusedly and letting it drop when they were ten feet away, as usual. I'd say they were better received than at most protests, but really, I didn't meet almost anyone who actually knew who they were.

This was just a brief flying visit. I'm going to go for longer tomorrow, if I feel all better.

I'm sorry. I shouldn't laugh at the poor WWP guys. They're gonna have to keep turning out for as long as the protests last.

But I'm cracking up.

334 Wozza Matter?  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:17:56pm

re: #325 SanFranciscoZionist

I assume it can't go back earlier than Stalin--OR CAN IT???

You would be surprised.

335 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:17:58pm

re: #248 kirkspencer

Meet objective two: break the unions. Break their pesky ability to negotiate pay and benefits, to protect the retirement funds (all that wasted capital just sitting there instead of in MY bank account), etc.

The unions have no power to negotiate for overseas employees, and the various laws that prevent moving to Right to Fire Work states don't stop overseas movement.

Right on target. And again, this is the reason why the national labor woes of the U.S. (or any other free trade nation state in the industrialized world, i.e. all of them) cannot be solved on a purely national level. Capital has become so fluid, and spatial obstacles have become so insignificant that labor has to catch up to that or just suffer in its national strangleholds. There has to be a global solution.

336 kirkspencer  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:17:59pm

I need to go for a while. I'll check back later.

337 b_sharp  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:18:12pm

re: #330 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Some people can't handle the majesty.

Of a mote in one's eye?

338 jaunte  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:18:29pm
339 Kragar  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:18:43pm

re: #337 b_sharp

Of a mote in one's eye?

Just glad to see you.

340 b_sharp  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:19:18pm

re: #339 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Just glad to see you.

LMFAO

341 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:19:21pm

re: #331 wozzablog

Some of the understanding of Stalinist revisionism in the assorted Internationals is equal to that of Holocaust Denial. No one dies in Ukraine from Stalin's famine policies (etc).

Grand delusions abound on the extremes of both sides of the spectrum.

Either that or the MBF comes to the rescue.

342 Obdicut  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:19:30pm

re: #323 lostlakehiker

I'd have to see the actual math on it, but since West Virginia has 5 electoral votes, about 2 million people, and California has 55 votes with 40 million people, that means that a West Virginian's vote counts about twice what mine does in terms of electoral votes.

So an eyeball of it says that you're wrong, unless you look at it from some very odd perspective.

343 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:19:37pm

re: #332 Cannadian Club Akbar

Afternoon Honcos.

Afternoon, Dr. Nick!

344 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:19:37pm

re: #319 SanFranciscoZionist

sort of like cut-rate Communist Jesuits

That deserves twenty thousand updings. Lol!

345 Obdicut  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:19:52pm

re: #328 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

That's nice.

346 b_sharp  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:20:52pm

I wanna be a Marxist. Where do I sign up, and what do I have to bring aside from 3D glasses?

347 Simply Sarah  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:21:02pm

re: #316 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

Yeah, I've heard all manner of views on the word, having trans friends, myself, and besides having gone to many a Trannyshack over the years. It's not a static term. I don't have any problem not using "trannybaiting" or starring it out if it bothers you, though.

Eh, I think I can got over it, since I know you don't mean it as a slur against trans people. I realize it's a term that some sections of the trans community have attempted to embrace and reclaim, while others simply find it offensive in general. Sort of like the term w**** is for some sex workers, I suppose.

348 prairiefire  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:21:09pm

Everybody's all shouty today.

349 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:21:11pm

re: #338 jaunte

Self-hating environmentalist?

Environmentalist was barred from U.S. because FBI feared he’d glue himself to Palin

LOL!!!

"I'm not some kind of super-glue addict," Glass says.

I wish they'd let him come. I don't care WHO he wanted to glue himself to. That there is high political comedy.

350 Cannadian Club Akbar  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:21:19pm

re: #346 b_sharp

I wanna be a Marxist. Where do I sign up, and what do I have to bring aside from 3D glasses?

Wear something brownish.

351 b_sharp  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:22:01pm

re: #348 prairiefire

Everybody's all shouty today.

I'm sorry, did you say something? I can't hear a thing.

352 b_sharp  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:22:51pm

re: #349 SanFranciscoZionist

LOL!!!

"I'm not some kind of super-glue addict," Glass says.

I wish they'd let him come. I don't care WHO he wanted to glue himself to. That there is high political comedy.

He would have to use Crazy Glue.

353 jaunte  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:23:12pm

re: #349 SanFranciscoZionist

Glue yourself to one Prime Minister, and the reputation never comes unstuck.

354 Wozza Matter?  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:23:21pm

re: #346 b_sharp

I wanna be a Marxist. Where do I sign up, and what do I have to bring aside from 3D glasses?

I'll start distributing the monthly Marxist pay checks......

355 Obdicut  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:23:23pm

re: #346 b_sharp

FIirst you have to decide what sort of Marxist you want to be. Do you want to be a Marxist-Lenninist? A Marxist-Troskyite? A Classical Marxist? A Libertarian Marxist? A Structural Marxist?

After you decide that, you go and argue with any other kind of Marxist, because they are now your biggest enemy.

356 laZardo  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:23:30pm

I firmly believe that there will be significant violence before any significant reform is made.

There, I said it.

357 Kragar  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:24:02pm

re: #348 prairiefire

Everybody's all shouty today.

358 jaunte  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:24:29pm

re: #348 prairiefire

WHAT?

359 Wozza Matter?  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:24:42pm

re: #355 Obdicut

FIirst you have to decide what sort of Marxist you want to be. Do you want to be a Marxist-Lenninist? A Marxist-Troskyite? A Classical Marxist? A Libertarian Marxist? A Structural Marxist?

After you decide that, you go and argue with any other kind of Marxist, because they are now your biggest enemy.

The last sentence being the real reason the world isn't Communist, not American military might or spending power of the late '80s.

360 b_sharp  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:24:52pm

re: #355 Obdicut

FIirst you have to decide what sort of Marxist you want to be. Do you want to be a Marxist-Lenninist? A Marxist-Troskyite? A Classical Marxist? A Libertarian Marxist? A Structural Marxist?

After you decide that, you go and argue with any other kind of Marxist, because they are now your biggest enemy.

I'd rather be a Groucho Marxist. It's less complicated.

361 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:25:17pm

re: #355 Obdicut

FIirst you have to decide what sort of Marxist you want to be. Do you want to be a Marxist-Lenninist? A Marxist-Troskyite? A Classical Marxist? A Libertarian Marxist? A Structural Marxist?

After you decide that, you go and argue with any other kind of Marxist, because they are now your biggest enemy.

Marxist factionalism is almost as dizzying and contentious as Protestant factionalism. It's just that the Protestants have been doing it for a lot longer.

362 lostlakehiker  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:26:22pm

re: #281 kirkspencer

What we should be noticing is that the automation and processes that did in manufacturing employment are coming soon to a white collar job near you.

Science fiction's had stories about it for (literally) decades: what happens when only a handful of manhours of work are required to care for our needs?

We've gone through it before, and it'll be no easier this time. At core the two extremes are obvious: either some work a lot while the rest idle, or everyone works fewer total hours. Depending on how it gets there, the former will either be autocrats or slaves to the rest, which is why I rather prefer the latter solution.

The ones whose work cannot be automated will, for some time yet to come if not indefinitely, include scientists, authors, stars of the performing arts, and athletes. There is really no way that these people can do their work at all unless they do it full bore.

Various sci-fi authors have tried out solutions, in thought-experiment form. Larry Niven's projection is a world in which people are free to pretty much not lift a finger, and are assured a "living wage" albeit quite modest. But you only get two birthrights for free. If you want a large family, you have to find a way to make a big contribution to society.

Just carrying a gene that confers, say, immunity to heart disease would qualify you, (the gene exists, confined to one little village in Italy), but mostly you'd need to actually do something.

363 Obdicut  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:26:30pm

re: #360 b_sharp

I'd rather be a Groucho Marxist. It's less complicated.

I'm a Harpo Marxist, so you and I won't be able to agree on anything, and I'm also going to cut off your tie and then smile at you.

364 MittDoesNotCompute  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:26:58pm

re: #352 b_sharp

He would have to use Crazy Glue.

*groan*

365 The Ghost of a Flea  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:28:02pm

re: #361 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

Marxist factionalism is almost as dizzying and contentious as Protestant factionalism. It's just that the Protestants have been doing it for a lot longer.

Ah. Back in my college days a cheap form of entertainment between classes was initiating a heated discussion between the various Marxists selling papers on campus.

366 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:28:23pm

Here comes the rain again...

I've been sitting for much of today, waiting to have a phone interview for a job. The woman keeps e-mailing me and pushing back an hour. We are now on for three-thirty. Meanwhile, I keep not doing things like turning on the dishwasher--because I need to speak to her soon.

Annoyance!

367 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:28:44pm

re: #361 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

Marxist factionalism is almost as dizzying and contentious as Protestant factionalism. It's just that the Protestants have been doing it for a lot longer.

Also, Marxists don't make very good casseroles.

368 b_sharp  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:29:39pm

re: #363 Obdicut

I'm a Harpo Marxist, so you and I won't be able to agree on anything, and I'm also going to cut off your tie and then smile at you.

"I never forget a face, but in your case I'll be glad to make an exception."

369 makeitstop  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:29:51pm

re: #348 prairiefire

Everybody's all shouty today.

Yeah, been like that for a few days now. I'm actually adjusting to it (while trying not to get shouty myself).

370 prairiefire  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:30:10pm

Lydia The Tattoed Lady:

371 Cannadian Club Akbar  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:30:13pm

re: #366 SanFranciscoZionist

Here comes the rain again...

I've been sitting for much of today, waiting to have a phone interview for a job. The woman keeps e-mailing me and pushing back an hour. We are now on for three-thirty. Meanwhile, I keep not doing things like turning on the dishwasher--because I need to speak to her soon.

Annoyance!

Are you trying to get a job with the cable company?
///well, that sucked!!

372 allegro  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:30:26pm

re: #338 jaunte

Self-hating environmentalist?

Environmentalist was barred from U.S. because FBI feared he’d glue himself to Palin

According to Glass, the officer posed a number of questions: Did he plan to super-glue himself to President Obama? What would Glass do if he met the president? After the officer wrapped up his questions, Glass proceeded to his actual visa interview with consular officials. There, too, he was asked super-glue-related questions: What about Sarah Palin? Would he super-glue himself to her?

"I'm not some kind of super-glue addict," Glass says.

OMG this is hilarious.

373 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:30:35pm

re: #367 SanFranciscoZionist

Also, Marxists don't make very good casseroles.

Their punch and cookies leave much to be desired.

374 b_sharp  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:30:35pm

re: #364 talon_262

*groan*

We can fix that noise with a bit of duct tape.

375 Wozza Matter?  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:30:54pm

re: #369 makeitstop

Yeah, been like that for a few days now. I'm actually adjusting to it (while trying not to get shouty myself).

Happens every so often.

There seems to be a "pissing on the carpet" season, a few people indulge, the rest of us just have to step around it.

376 prairiefire  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:31:20pm

re: #369 makeitstop

Yeah, been like that for a few days now. I'm actually adjusting to it (while trying not to get shouty myself).

You know it's going to be a harsh election season when it's like this 13 months out. I'd really like the economy to get better. That would go a long way.

377 Wozza Matter?  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:32:13pm

re: #375 wozzablog

and can people CUT IT OUT WITH THE DINGS WHEN THIS SHIT HAPPENS.


thnx.

378 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:32:53pm

Back from the backyard wars. I win. Again. Weeds lose, but some roots remain (mint) and will bide their time until spring.

379 Kragar  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:33:10pm

re: #362 lostlakehiker

The ones whose work cannot be automated will, for some time yet to come if not indefinitely, include scientists, authors, stars of the performing arts, and athletes. There is really no way that these people can do their work at all unless they do it full bore.

Various sci-fi authors have tried out solutions, in thought-experiment form. Larry Niven's projection is a world in which people are free to pretty much not lift a finger, and are assured a "living wage" albeit quite modest. But you only get two birthrights for free. If you want a large family, you have to find a way to make a big contribution to society.

Just carrying a gene that confers, say, immunity to heart disease would qualify you, (the gene exists, confined to one little village in Italy), but mostly you'd need to actually do something.

David Brin's Uplift War had all citizens follow strict guidelines about with whom they could have children with based off of both genetics and contributions to society.

380 makeitstop  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:33:15pm

re: #375 wozzablog

Happens every so often.

There seems to be a "pissing on the carpet" season, a few people indluge, the erst of us just have to step around it.

Now that you've reminded me... back in a few.
/

381 wrenchwench  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:33:25pm

re: #377 wozzablog

and can people CUT IT OUT WITH THE DINGS WHEN THIS SHIT HAPPENS.

thnx.

Geez, I was about to upding your comment...

382 b_sharp  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:33:37pm

re: #378 EmmmieG

Back from the backyard wars. I win. Again. Weeds lose, but some roots remain (mint) and will bide their time until spring.

I just wait for the snow to come.

383 windsagio  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:33:55pm

re: #377 wozzablog

that's what dinging is for :p

re: #378 EmmmieG

Back from the backyard wars. I win. Again. Weeds lose, but some roots remain (mint) and will bide their time until spring.

oh you just reminded me I have to go out and weed. So don't want to :(

Thanks for nothin'!

384 Wozza Matter?  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:34:02pm

re: #381 wrenchwench

Geez, I was about to upding your comment...

Oh, you can keep dinging me, obviously.

Not that i'm a ding whore or anything............

385 Wozza Matter?  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:36:48pm

re: #383 windsagio

that's what dinging is for :p

It's pointless and just encourages people who shouldn't be encouraged. It also crystalizes lines where there should be none.

386 windsagio  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:38:23pm

re: #385 wozzablog

what manner of dinging are you talking about? Updinging zingers? Downdinging people being tards?

I think its useful personally, you can learn a lot about people by their post rating habits :p

387 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:38:27pm

re: #356 laZardo

I firmly believe that there will be significant violence before any significant reform is made.

There, I said it.

I don't. I think there are indeed plenty of people hoping for a lot of violence, but the kind of violence done by others that they can watch on television as entertainment. Never by themselves.

388 Wozza Matter?  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:38:59pm

re: #386 windsagio

what manner of dinging are you talking about? Updinging zingers? Downdinging people being tards?

I think its useful personally, you can learn a lot about people by their post rating habits :p

When it's a pissing contest it's not helpful in the slightest.

389 windsagio  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:40:05pm

re: #387 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

The cynic in me ends up always thinking 'nothing will change without some kind of violence', but it more means I'm pretty convinced that nothing much will change.

390 Wozza Matter?  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:40:09pm

re: #388 wozzablog

Or just plain petty.

391 b_sharp  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:40:52pm

re: #388 wozzablog

When it's a pissing contest it's not helpful in the slightest.

Listen bub, I can write my name in the snow.

392 windsagio  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:41:02pm

re: #388 wozzablog

well again, shows what people *really* think. Folks just have to not get upset on the fact that somebody -'d their post.

393 The Left  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:41:43pm

re: #391 b_sharp

Listen bub, I can write my name in the snow.

And with that, I'm caught up with the thread. Ding!

394 lostlakehiker  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:41:53pm

re: #342 Obdicut

I'd have to see the actual math on it, but since West Virginia has 5 electoral votes, about 2 million people, and California has 55 votes with 40 million people, that means that a West Virginian's vote counts about twice what mine does in terms of electoral votes.

So an eyeball of it says that you're wrong, unless you look at it from some very odd perspective.

The point is that the chances that WV's 5 votes will swing the whole outcome are minimal.

In a little test model I just cooked up, where there are 98 states, each like WV, and one CA, as CA goes, so goes the nation, about 87 percent of the time.

So your individual chance of swaying the election is almost equal to the chance that you sway CA, and that's about 1 in 4000, assuming 16 million Californians vote.

Your chance of swaying an election in WV is about 1 in 1000, give or take, so that's four times as big. But WV is more than 4 times as unimportant.

Does that help?

395 Cannadian Club Akbar  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:42:09pm

Is FBV here? I wonder if all Veggies do this?
///NSF-well, people
[Link: www.huffingtonpost.com...]

396 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:42:49pm

re: #389 windsagio

The cynic in me ends up always thinking 'nothing will change without some kind of violence', but it more means I'm pretty convinced that nothing much will change.

Depends on the change. DADT repeal came without violence. In fact, the day came and went with little attention to it. But that's a major shift.

397 Wozza Matter?  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:42:54pm

re: #392 windsagio

Not the point I'm making.

There are disagreements and flat out rows over shit that are nothing to do with being a good community here.

398 The Left  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:44:03pm

BTW, I think we need an LGF drinking game. ;)

We should put one together for the debates, and definitely for election night.

399 windsagio  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:45:02pm

re: #396 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

Depends on the change. DADT repeal came without violence. In fact, the day came and went with little attention to it. But that's a major shift.

I honestly think economic reform is the thing that would take drastic measures. We're naturally winning on a number of the social issues (gays, abortion, drug policy, some aspects of race) and its only a matter of time.

Economic reform is a LOT tougher, it's not just a case of waiting them out.

400 Cannadian Club Akbar  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:45:42pm

re: #398 iceweasel

BTW, I think we need an LGF drinking game. ;)

We should put one together for the debates, and definitely for election night.

We could also use one for breakfast time.:)

401 Eventual Carrion  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:45:50pm

re: #278 Killgore Trout

People with iphones, laptops and enough free time to live in a park for three weeks? People occupying wall street are not poor. I can guarantee you I make less money than almost all of them. Once again, don;t tell me what I know or how much I'm hurting. I won;t respond to anymore strawmen.

Yet you know the people that are occupying wall street are not poor, and probably make more money than you. They couldn't be people that no longer have work because some wall street scum took over a business they worked for and shipped it lock, stock, and barrel overseas. Or maybe they are homeless because of some scam of a rich bastard, and are just pissed.

I see YOUR strawman burning.

402 BishopX  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:46:13pm

re: #398 iceweasel

BTW, I think we need an LGF drinking game. ;)

We should put one together for the debates, and definitely for election night.

I would prefer bingo cards...

403 b_sharp  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:46:27pm

re: #397 wozzablog

Not the point I'm making.

There are disagreements and flat out rows over shit that are nothing to do with being a good community here.

Families tend to do that. It just goes to show the range of diversity here, which, in my opinion, is a good thing.

How we recover from the meaningless disputes is more important than that we have them.

Make-up sex is always good.

404 Obdicut  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:46:48pm

re: #394 lostlakehiker

What is your math on the ability to sway the election? I don't get that at all. Why do I have a 1/4000 chance in California to sway the election with a single vote, and a 1/1000 chance in West Virginia?

You really need to show your math if you want to convince anyone.

405 Wozza Matter?  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:47:07pm

Out for a while.

Need to reacquaint myself with M$ Powerpoint.

406 Digital Display  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:47:07pm

re: #398 iceweasel

BTW, I think we need an LGF drinking game. ;)

We should put one together for the debates, and definitely for election night.

The phrase ' cutting Taxes ' Will cause many alcohol poisonings throughout the Land

407 windsagio  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:47:12pm

re: #397 wozzablog

To be honest the problem isn't the comment rating system (all of a sudden I hate the term 'ding', lol). It's a more basic thing that some folks get deeply offended when people disagree with them and go off the deep end.

The problem is 'my way or the highway' not +/-.

408 The Left  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:47:20pm

re: #402 BishopX

I would prefer bingo cards...

That would be cool too. No reason why we can't combine the two!

I think we should do it.

409 b_sharp  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:47:28pm

re: #400 Cannadian Club Akbar

We could also use one for breakfast time.:)

Every time someone says Cheerios, snort some orange juice.

410 Aye Pod  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:47:47pm

re: #392 windsagio

well again, shows what people *really* think. Folks just have to not get upset on the fact that somebody -'d their post.

Registering an opinion about bad posts is bad, mmmkay? ;-)

411 Cannadian Club Akbar  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:48:45pm

re: #409 b_sharp

Every time someone says Cheerios, snort some orange juice.

Well, the little OJ boxes already come with straws....

412 makeitstop  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:48:56pm

re: #405 wozzablog

Out for a while.

Need to reacquaint myself with M$ Powerpoint.

Ewwww.

413 Wozza Matter?  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:49:10pm

re: #407 windsagio

To be honest the problem isn't the comment rating system (all of a sudden I hate the term 'ding', lol). It's a more basic thing that some folks get deeply offended when people disagree with them and go off the deep end.

The problem is 'my way or the highway' not +/-.

Again, not about disagreements.
When it's personalities at the particular kind of play we saw earlier taking sides is not productive by comment rating is not productive in anyway.

414 windsagio  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:49:36pm

re: #410 Jimmah

speaking of that, did you see the SP last night?

When did they turn so insanely, intensely bleak?

"Life is shit, it doesn't get better, you have to just go on forever doing the same crap, but maybe, JUST MAYBE drink will get you through the day."

415 Kragar  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:50:27pm
416 Charles Johnson  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:50:33pm

Shouting? I'M NOT SHOUTING!

417 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:50:51pm

re: #399 windsagio

I honestly think economic reform is the thing that would take drastic measures. We're naturally winning on a number of the social issues (gays, abortion, drug policy, some aspects of race) and its only a matter of time.

Economic reform is a LOT tougher, it's not just a case of waiting them out.

I wouldn't say we are naturally winning on social issues. All of those changes come with heaps of violence. The rw today are also the ones squealing like pigs because they think they still have a right to gaybash, blackbash, immigrantbash, etc.

I do agree about economics. Though I would add that many of those social issues are often directly tied to economics, i.e., I'm God's favorite so I should have mine and those others should have nothing, or, the government should be clearing paths for me and no one else. That sort of thing.

418 Obdicut  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:51:22pm

re: #394 lostlakehiker

I'm fairly sure, for example, you're off by a factor of at least a thousand in terms of the probability of my vote swaying an election in California.

Is there a place you're getting this from that I could go look at?

419 Aye Pod  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:51:29pm

re: #414 windsagio

speaking of that, did you see the SP last night?

When did they turn so insanely, intensely bleak?

"Life is shit, it doesn't get better, you have to just go on forever doing the same crap, but maybe, JUST MAYBE drink will get you through the day."

Haven't seen it yet - but I've heard stiries about them getting dissilusioned with the whole thing (especially Trey Parker, IIRC).

420 lostlakehiker  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:51:45pm

re: #404 Obdicut

What is your math on the ability to sway the election? I don't get that at all. Why do I have a 1/4000 chance in California to sway the election with a single vote, and a 1/1000 chance in West Virginia?

You really need to show your math if you want to convince anyone.

It's a model, and all models depart from reality, but the idea is to assume that the election is tight, because the nation is evenly divided. Nobody can influence a landslide, after all.

Now, how to model a tight election? Assume that all the voters flip a coin and then vote, except for you. You think it over, and decide.

Now, what are the chances that the election will be tied, and your vote gives your candidate a 1 point lead and so he wins? Slim, but slim in proportion to the square root of the number of voters. This goes back to the binomial distribution, and the fact that the mass is mostly found within one standard deviation.

Think of it like this: ten thousand and one flips of a coin. What is the chance that it's tied 5000-5000, before the last flip? More like 1 in 100, than like 1 in 10000. Or, if you want more accuracy, zero point 8 percent.

421 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:52:06pm

re: #415 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Rage...building...

Topeka, Kansas City Council Considers Decriminalizing Domestic Violence To Save Money

Let me guess. It will still be illegal to beat up Kansas City Council members, though, right?

422 Cannadian Club Akbar  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:53:07pm

re: #421 SanFranciscoZionist

Let me guess. It will still be illegal to beat up Kansas City Council members, though, right?

Not if you're married to them.

423 makeitstop  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:53:08pm

re: #421 SanFranciscoZionist

Let me guess. It will still be illegal to beat up Kansas City Council members, though, right?

I regret that I have but one upding, etc.

424 lostlakehiker  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:53:37pm

re: #418 Obdicut

I'm fairly sure, for example, you're off by a factor of at least a thousand in terms of the probability of my vote swaying an election in California.

Is there a place you're getting this from that I could go look at?

Wikipedia, binomial distribution. Or compute C[10000,5000]/2^(10000). Which I just did.

Or Central Limit Theorem.

425 windsagio  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:53:38pm

re: #417 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

You're right of course, the funny thing with social issues is they've actually already been won (well barring disaster), just nobody knows it yet.

You're totally right, I shouldn't in any way lessen the often-violent struggles people have had to go through during the last 50+ years just because we're coasting to victory now.

426 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:53:57pm

re: #415 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Rage...building...

Topeka, Kansas City Council Considers Decriminalizing Domestic Violence To Save Money

Lovely downtown Topeka.

427 Kragar  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:54:52pm

re: #426 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

Lovely downtown Topeka.

They need to install some ramps though. Women keep falling down the stairs apparently.

428 recusancy  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:55:22pm
429 allegro  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:58:03pm

Somehow I suspect that Topeka is still prosecuting drug cases. Smoke a joint? Go to jail. Beat the crap outa your wife, no problem.

Something very wrong with this picture.

430 Killgore Trout  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:58:30pm

DC rally today....
anti-capitalism
[Link: www.daylife.com...]
Code Pink
[Link: www.daylife.com...]
Military Paulians
[Link: www.daylife.com...]

432 Darth Vader Gargoyle  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 3:00:52pm

re: #421 SanFranciscoZionist

Let me guess. It will still be illegal to beat up Kansas City Council members, though, right?

Unless they are mouthy women.
//

433 Aye Pod  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 3:01:52pm
434 goddamnedfrank  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 3:02:00pm

re: #420 lostlakehiker

It's a model, and all models depart from reality, but the idea is to assume that the election is tight, because the nation is evenly divided. Nobody can influence a landslide, after all.

Now, how to model a tight election? Assume that all the voters flip a coin and then vote, except for you. You think it over, and decide.

Now, what are the chances that the election will be tied, and your vote gives your candidate a 1 point lead and so he wins? Slim, but slim in proportion to the square root of the number of voters. This goes back to the binomial distribution, and the fact that the mass is mostly found within one standard deviation.

Think of it like this: ten thousand and one flips of a coin. What is the chance that it's tied 5000-5000, before the last flip? More like 1 in 100, than like 1 in 10000. Or, if you want more accuracy, zero point 8 percent.

Isn't this scenario enormously contrived? And in it isn't an individual voter in a small state still far more likely to end up deciding the outcome for their state and thus the election as a whole? In other words, according to your model, doesn't every quadrupling of the population result in a doubling of the odds against any particular vote having a meaningful chance of determining the outcome?

435 b_sharp  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 3:02:34pm

Is there a drug that can stop the stupid? If so, it should be added to toothpaste.

436 b_sharp  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 3:03:38pm

re: #432 rwdflynavy

Unless they are mouthy women.
//

I like mouthy women.

437 Killgore Trout  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 3:03:45pm

"Arm the homeless"

[Link: www.daylife.com...]
I don't think that's a very good idea.

438 Kragar  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 3:03:45pm

GOP Financial Services Chairman: Occupy Wall Street Is ‘Misdirected,’ Should Protest ‘Job Killing Regulations’ In DC

Today, House Financial Services Chairman Spencer Bachus (R-AL) — who believes that Washington’s role is to “serve the banks” — said during a hearing that he believes the protests are “misdirected,” and that the protesters should instead come to Washington, DC to protest “job-killing regulations.”

He then placed the corporate dick back in his mouth.

439 Darth Vader Gargoyle  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 3:04:06pm

re: #435 b_sharp

Is there a drug that can stop the stupid? If so, it should be added to toothpaste.

General Jack D. Ripper: Mandrake, do you realize that in addition to fluoridating water, why, there are studies underway to fluoridate salt, flour, fruit juices, soup, sugar, milk... ice cream. Ice cream, Mandrake, children's ice cream.

440 laZardo  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 3:04:06pm

re: #435 b_sharp

Is there a drug that can stop the stupid? If so, it should be added to toothpastethe water.

Because it already has fluorine. O_O

441 b_sharp  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 3:04:21pm

Off to get my mouthy woman. BBL.

442 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 3:05:18pm

re: #418 Obdicut

I'm fairly sure, for example, you're off by a factor of at least a thousand in terms of the probability of my vote swaying an election in California.

Is there a place you're getting this from that I could go look at?

Pfft, does he ever provide any references for anything he ever says?

443 Aye Pod  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 3:05:34pm

re: #435 b_sharp

Is there a drug that can stop the stupid? If so, it should be added to toothpaste.

Don't try to brane me up on your libruhl chemicals!

444 Cannadian Club Akbar  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 3:05:51pm

re: #437 Killgore Trout

"Arm the homeless"

[Link: www.daylife.com...]
I don't think that's a very good idea.

That mentions Goldman Sachs. Wasn't the last gubner of NJ a former GS exec?

445 Killgore Trout  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 3:06:25pm

A message from Anonymous to the 99%


Top rated diary at DKOS
We Have Reached a Critical Mass: Powerful Video Message from Anonymous
446 lostlakehiker  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 3:06:35pm

re: #404 Obdicut

What is your math on the ability to sway the election? I don't get that at all. Why do I have a 1/4000 chance in California to sway the election with a single vote, and a 1/1000 chance in West Virginia?

You really need to show your math if you want to convince anyone.

Or here's another way to look at it. The technical question is, why is (2n)! divided by n! twice and then divided by 2^(2n) something like 1/square root of n?

Wikipedia, Stirling's approximationreports that m! is approximately given by (square root of 2 Pi m) times (m/e)^m. Simplify that expression at the top and you get 1/sqrt(Pi * n).

447 Gepetto  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 3:07:08pm

re: #73 LudwigVanQuixote

One serious observation, and if you read nothing else of mine this thread please note this:

Of course, Occupy Wall Street has a muddled message. It doesn't have the many millions of dollars organizing, shaping and feeding talking points to it from billionaires like the Teaparty does. It doesn't have an entire right wing national network feeding it propaganda and editing its foibles.

not yet. with the news that moveon.org, the larger unions,and the community organizing groups are moving into the occupy movement, the movement will soon be owned lock stock and barrel by the professional left. Once again, the 99% will be left holding the bag as an organic protest movement is co-opted by professional politics.

Also worth noting is a mega billionaire using his pet project to shake up the heart of an economic system to "make things better for the common man". This maneuver has worked brilliantly for him in the past, filling his pockets with loot every time he's run this hustle.

[Link: www.pantagraph.com...]

448 Darth Vader Gargoyle  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 3:07:19pm

re: #446 lostlakehiker

Or here's another way to look at it. The technical question is, why is (2n)! divided by n! twice and then divided by 2^(2n) something like 1/square root of n?

Wikipedia, Stirling's approximationreports that m! is approximately given by (square root of 2 Pi m) times (m/e)^m. Simplify that expression at the top and you get 1/sqrt(Pi * n).

I was told there would be no math.
//

449 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 3:08:26pm

re: #430 Killgore Trout

DC rally today...
anti-capitalism
[Link: www.daylife.com...]
Code Pink
[Link: www.daylife.com...]
Military Paulians
[Link: www.daylife.com...]

Oh, Medea.

450 CuriousLurker  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 3:08:45pm

re: #271 000G

It wasn't so much a "test" as a genuine curiosity. And I never pretend that my knowledge is the end-all and be-all of all things, so when asking I was also open to learn something new.

Sorry for the slow response, but I'm in the middle of work. I'm going to put something right out on the table.

Do you remember this Page? I went to the trouble of finding examples for you and even scanning pages of my English-Arabic dictionary in an effort to try to explain things to you in good faith about how Muslims see things. You brushed it off pretty much dismissing all Muslim scholars in favor of Goldziher by saying that—in your non-Mulsim opinion—he "beat the pants off of any recent Grand Imam of Al-Azhar"

What that meant to me was that you, as a non-Muslim, didn't really give a damn who Muslims might listen to or what they might think WRT their own religion. Maybe that's not what you meant. Maybe it is. Either way it ended further dialog.

Do you remember this one, where I gave up? Did you even realize that I said "You win," not becuase you convinced me of anything, but because I desperately wanted to extricate myself from a debate had become so doggedly drawn out that I'd lost all interest in the subject?

You're obviously an intelligent person, but not everyone enjoys 9-hour debates (like you & Obdi had recently), and sometimes your tone is abrasive—like with the Saudi women Pages—which also puts some people off and kills conversation.

It's a free country and you're obviously free to interact with people here however you please as long as it's within the rules, but if you're truly interested in learning new things, you might want to reconsider your approach to people as one size doesn't fit all when dealing with so many different personalities. Or just disregard what I'm saying since, in the larger scheme of things, it really doesn't matter much who gets annoyed by whom and for what reasons. We can always engage the GAZE.

I have to get back to work now.

451 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 3:09:20pm

re: #286 Obdicut

I'll do a page on it later.

Awesome, thanks.

453 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 3:09:29pm

[platitude mode on]

OWS is a Rorschach like Obama was. Somebody prefers to see the radical roots. Somebody sees it as a great solution to something or other. In the end both will probably be disappointed.

[off]

454 William Barnett-Lewis  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 3:10:27pm

re: #367 SanFranciscoZionist

Also, Marxists don't make very good casseroles.

Ok, that's funny. Give me Happy Lutherans and a casserole anytime :D

455 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 3:10:29pm

re: #445 Killgore Trout

A message from Anonymous to the 99%

[Video]
Top rated diary at DKOS
We Have Reached a Critical Mass: Powerful Video Message from Anonymous

It's like a magnet. The usual suspects can't stay away.

456 The Ghost of a Flea  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 3:10:40pm

re: #447 Gepetto

Also worth noting is a mega billionaire using his pet project to shake up the heart of an economic system to "make things better for the common man". This maneuver has worked brilliantly for him in the past, filling his pockets with loot every time he's run this hustle.

Named...?

457 Darth Vader Gargoyle  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 3:11:09pm

re: #454 wlewisiii

Ok, that's funny. Give me Happy Lutherans and a casserole anytime :D

Nobody potlucks like a Methodist! REPRESENT!!!

458 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 3:11:37pm

I see there has been a near-meltdown again.

459 Killgore Trout  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 3:11:41pm

re: #449 SanFranciscoZionist

Oh, Medea.

Heh, I thought some old timers might enjoy seeing her again.

460 Aye Pod  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 3:12:16pm

I hope zombie has been alerted about the penises. HE/SHE/IT NEEDS TO KNOW!

461 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 3:14:48pm

re: #458 Sergey Romanov

I see there has been a near-meltdown again.

I steered clear, and intend to go on doing so.

462 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 3:14:51pm

re: #308 Obdicut

I was talking with a Chinese friend of mine about the way that the modern Chinese party repudiations 'actions' of Mao without repudiating Mao's ideology at all. It's kind of fascinating.

Mao is to be repudiated for when he didn't act Mao enough?

463 Obdicut  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 3:15:15pm

re: #424 lostlakehiker

The fact that you're already constraining this to a close election is admitting that the scenario you're talking about is not an all-inclusive one.

Are you talking about a probability distribution function?

Or are you just referring to the fact that the larger the number of samples, the more perfect the distribution will eventually be? As in, if you were the nine billionth voter there's be a much stronger chance that the distribution was closer to the underlying probability?

You also appear to be treating every vote as if it is the final vote. Do you get that?

464 makeitstop  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 3:18:02pm

Okay, I think I'll go have a beer. Catch up with y'all later. Rage nicely.

465 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 3:18:12pm

re: #325 SanFranciscoZionist

I assume it can't go back earlier than Stalin--OR CAN IT???

I've seen some people recently begrudgingly having to disavow Lenin and even Trotsky as well.

There's always Marx, though. For all his shortcomings, he never held office.

466 lostlakehiker  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 3:18:29pm

re: #434 goddamnedfrank

Isn't this scenario enormously contrived? And in it isn't an individual voter in a small state still far more likely to end up deciding the outcome for their state and thus the election as a whole? In other words, according to your model, doesn't every quadrupling of the population result in a doubling of the odds against any particular vote having a meaningful chance of determining the outcome?

The voter is indeed twice as likely to swing HIS OWN state, if his state is four times as small. But the chances that his STATE swings the whole election are reduced by a greater factor, for being small.
So when all is said and done, if you want to swing the national election, move to a big state. (Move to a big state where both parties are competitive, if we want to ratchet up the realism. )


Yes, my scenario is over simplified. But is it really that bad a thumbnail portrait of the reality? Big states are so big that a close national election is very likely to end up coming down to California. Or Texas. Or Florida or NY. But CA is the biggest of all, and WV is small in any model. As it is in reality.

467 Gepetto  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 3:18:34pm

re: #168 iossarian

If someone had just woken up from a coma and asked you which party to vote for, in order to help fix both government and Wall Street, what would you say?

whichever one is not under the influence of wall street. that would be neither. Whichever one is not behind NAFTA or pushing new free trade agreements. that, too, would be neither.

Occupy K Street!

469 lostlakehiker  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 3:23:09pm

re: #463 Obdicut

The fact that you're already constraining this to a close election is admitting that the scenario you're talking about is not an all-inclusive one.

Are you talking about a probability distribution function?

Or are you just referring to the fact that the larger the number of samples, the more perfect the distribution will eventually be? As in, if you were the nine billionth voter there's be a much stronger chance that the distribution was closer to the underlying probability?

You also appear to be treating every vote as if it is the final vote. Do you get that?

You asked for the math. I gave it. Of course, if an election is a tie save 1, then every last voter who voted for the winner can be seen as the deciding vote. So, what does it matter who votes last?

The original question, how much influence do I have, seems to me to come down to this: what are the chances that the national result would have been different if I had gone into that booth and voted differently, all else held the same, in an election where the general sense going in was that it's going to be tight? (If it's not going to be tight, then no one anywhere has any chance that their vote, all else held equal, might have decided it.)

You are good at debate. If you work at it, you can "win" this conversation. But I know my profession. You might ask Ludwig if I'm making sense.

470 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 3:23:21pm

re: #356 laZardo

When does violence become "significant"?

471 Gepetto  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 3:23:26pm

re: #189 engineer dog

steve jobs never whined about how high taxes and regulations were creating an "anti business climate", and nothing in "gummint" kept him from creating the most innovative products and one of the most profitable companies in this country in the past 30 years

Most companies aren't whining. They've got us just where they want us. If you are behind the Occupy movement, Steve Jobs is an unusual pick for hero, paying himself a dollar a year in income so he could take the lower capital gains rate, and outsourcing billions of dollars in wages to china because billions of dollars in wages buys so much more labor over there.

472 albusteve  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 3:23:35pm

re: #430 Killgore Trout

DC rally today...
anti-capitalism
[Link: www.daylife.com...]
Code Pink
[Link: www.daylife.com...]
Military Paulians
[Link: www.daylife.com...]

at least they have the right town

473 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 3:24:16pm

re: #359 wozzablog

The last sentence being the real reason the world isn't Communist, not American military might or spending power of the late '80s.

Factionism killed off Marxism? Really?

474 Charles Johnson  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 3:25:08pm

re: #460 Jimmah

I hope zombie has been alerted about the penises. HE/SHE/IT NEEDS TO KNOW!

Andrew Breitbart's all over that story.

475 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 3:26:00pm

re: #461 SanFranciscoZionist

I steered clear, and intend to go on doing so.

I noticed it doesn't help sometimes. ;)

476 wrenchwench  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 3:26:17pm

re: #474 Charles

Andrew Breitbart's all over that story.

Breitbart is Zombie!!!1!

//

477 Gepetto  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 3:26:35pm

re: #203 iossarian

we've done the best with a president of one party and control of congress going to the other party. but we need more damn parties.

478 Darth Vader Gargoyle  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 3:26:51pm

re: #474 Charles

Andrew Breitbart's all over that story.

Like a fat kid on a cupcake! (Sorry FBV)

479 Varek Raith  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 3:27:34pm

re: #458 Sergey Romanov

I see there has been a near-meltdown again.

The containment vessel wasn't breached. No radiation leaked. Well, not much.
STOP PERSECUTING ME!!!
/

480 Kragar  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 3:27:56pm

Ron Paul: Greater Access To Birth Control Makes A ‘Mockery’ Of Christians

“I am deeply troubled by the flippancy with which President Obama recently discussed regulations that are alarming and troublesome for many Americans,” said Rep. Paul (R-Texas). “Not all Americans are comfortable with the Obama administration’s decision to mandate coverage of birth control and morning-after pills, and the considerations of these people, many of them Christian conservatives, are worthy of careful consideration — not mockery.” [...]

“Many, like me, view this rigid regulatory overstep from which there is inadequate opportunity to self-exempt as payback to Planned Parenthood and big pharmaceutical companies for their support of Obamacare,” Paul said. “Many others oppose it out of strict moral conviction, and their voices should be heard at least to the extent that an authentic opportunity to exempt be provided.”

481 lostlakehiker  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 3:28:33pm

re: #356 laZardo

I firmly believe that there will be significant violence before any significant reform is made.

There, I said it.

And I disagree. This is not like abolition, a question that must be settled by the sword. It's not even as contentious as the Vietnam war.

It's a big country, and surely, somewhere, two men in a bar will dispute the matter, it'll come to blows, they'll be told to take it outside, and outside, somebody will pull a knife or a gun and kill somebody. That's significant to both of them, but that sort of thing is not of national significance.

Whichever side loses, on this point or that, will accept the reality and try to win some other point, or win a modified and watered down version of what it really wanted in whole. Or just try again. All of it in the political and cultural realm. ---again, apart from bar fights and other such relatively insignificant violence.

482 ProGunLiberal  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 3:29:13pm

re: #480 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

And more of the mask falls off.

He's just an isolationist Republican, circa 1920.

He's a Socon, except on Pot.

483 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 3:29:34pm

re: #479 Varek Raith

The containment vessel wasn't breached. No radiation leaked. Well, not much.
STOP PERSECUTING ME!!!
/

*stern look*

484 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 3:29:59pm

re: #475 Sergey Romanov

I noticed it doesn't help sometimes. ;)

It's kind of cool, knowing that I was offered a chance to tip the whole thread over a cliff, and didn't feel the need.

485 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 3:30:05pm

I was going to say something about Solon and the revising of Greek laws, but I have to go to the dentist.

So much for my great thoughts.

486 Kragar  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 3:30:35pm

GOP Congressman: Purchasing healthcare is like buying a vacation home when you're in debt already

Congress should not proceed to implement new, incredibly expensive entailment programs at a time when our Country’s credit rating has been downgraded, we are threatened with another downgrade, we are trying to save the entitlement programs already in place, we are going bankrupt, and we continue to receive warnings from every quarter that our current path is unsustainable.

American families know this. To use a simple analogy, they know that if they are deeply in debt and cannot afford to pay the loans on their home and car, they should not buy an expensive vacation home.”

487 wrenchwench  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 3:31:34pm

re: #480 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Ron Paul: Greater Access To Birth Control Makes A ‘Mockery’ Of Christians

I know you're just the messenger, but your posts are not good for my mood.

488 Kragar  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 3:32:27pm

re: #487 wrenchwench

I know you're just the messenger, but your posts are not good for my mood.

490 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 3:33:18pm

re: #459 Killgore Trout

Heh, I thought some old timers might enjoy seeing her again.

She's always good for a two minutes hate, and seems to revel in this.

Well, bully for her, I guess.

491 BongCrodny  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 3:33:47pm

re: #437 Killgore Trout

"Arm the homeless"

[Link: www.daylife.com...]
I don't think that's a very good idea.

Hobo With A Shotgun!

492 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 3:34:26pm

re: #491 BongCrodny

Is that worth watching btw?

493 Aye Pod  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 3:34:34pm

re: #474 Charles

Andrew Breitbart's all over that story.

Gaah.

Btw I've approached the N.E.A. regarding the installation of a special new art work at Monticello:

Image: monticello6.jpg

494 albusteve  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 3:34:50pm

so this is where the Apple logo icon originated...interesting
[Link: www.cnn.com...]

495 Kragar  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 3:34:53pm

re: #492 Sergey Romanov

Is that worth watching btw?

Not particularly.

496 The Left  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 3:35:05pm

re: #480 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Ron Paul: Greater Access To Birth Control Makes A ‘Mockery’ Of Christians

it's uter-US, not uter-YOU!

The US must occupy the uteri!

497 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 3:35:43pm

re: #471 Gepetto

Most companies aren't whining. They've got us just where they want us. If you are behind the Occupy movement, Steve Jobs is an unusual pick for hero, paying himself a dollar a year in income so he could take the lower capital gains rate, and outsourcing billions of dollars in wages to china because billions of dollars in wages buys so much more labor over there.

People are mourning Steve Jobs, though I don't see anybody in the OWS heroizing him.

498 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 3:35:53pm

re: #496 iceweasel

it's uter-US, not uter-YOU!

The US must occupy the uteri!

What an uter pig.

499 Aye Pod  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 3:37:00pm

re: #484 SanFranciscoZionist

It's kind of cool, knowing that I was offered a chance to tip the whole thread over a cliff, and didn't feel the need.

Let us approach thee, that we may bathe in thy light ;-)

500 albusteve  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 3:38:07pm

re: #497 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

People are mourning Steve Jobs, though I don't see anybody in the OWS heroizing him.

why would they?...Jobs was no hero that I know of....unless you stretch the definition to whatever you want it to mean

501 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 3:39:09pm

re: #430 Killgore Trout

DC rally today...
anti-capitalism
[Link: www.daylife.com...]
Code Pink
[Link: www.daylife.com...]
Military Paulians
[Link: www.daylife.com...]

I don't know if it's fair to characterize the mocking of capitalists as anti-capitalist. Not really doubting the last one but that looks like Anonymous "members" to me. Where do you get the Paulian angle? Also, just one guy in a military jacket.

502 Obdicut  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 3:39:22pm

re: #469 lostlakehiker

You asked for the math. I gave it.

No, you didn't. You referenced a wikipedia page about an entire area of mathematics. Do you not know what 'show your math' means?

Look at it this way: what if there were 10,000 people total going to the polls in your state, including you? What are the chances of you being the 'deciding' vote then?

503 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 3:39:22pm

re: #499 Jimmah

Let us approach thee, that we may bathe in thy light ;-)

Just gimme a halo.

505 Varek Raith  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 3:41:01pm

Facepalm

Ohio’s new law allowing concealed guns into bars took effect last week. Bar and restaurant owners naturally view the law as a pain in the butt, and given a recent mishap, they have good reason to. The Columbus Dispatch reports that Ohio barber Kurt Voelkel got a bullet in his butt after his customer’s “9 mm handgun fell from his holster, struck the ground and went off.” The bullet “passed through the chair where Voelkel was sitting and also went through his wallet before coming to rest deep in his buttocks.” He spent more than two hours at the hospital, where doctors opted to leave the bullet where it is. The customer was just “adjusting his clothing and sitting down” when the gun fell; presumably alcohol was not involved. It’s hard to see how adding it into the mix will prevent this or worse situations from occurring.

506 darthstar  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 3:41:38pm

ha!Y'all are a bunch of mushrooms!
(kidding...some of you are walnuts)

507 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 3:42:33pm

re: #501 000G

I don't know if it's fair to characterize the mocking of capitalists as anti-capitalist. Not really doubting the last one but that looks like Anonymous "members" to me. Where do you get the Paulian angle? Also, just one guy in a military jacket.

...creeeeping

commies....

508 Digital Display  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 3:42:44pm

re: #499 Jimmah

Let us approach thee, that we may bathe in thy light ;-)

I touched the hem of her garment and got a static shock.. It could have been the carpet...then again it could have been a miracle.. I'm keeping my options open..
/Hi SFZ! :)

509 Cannadian Club Akbar  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 3:42:53pm

re: #505 Varek Raith

Facepalm

Drinking and guns. What could possibly go wrong? Oh, wait...

510 goddamnedfrank  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 3:43:05pm

re: #496 iceweasel

it's uter-US, not uter-YOU!

The US must occupy the uteri!

Ron Paul is the Wombshifter.

511 albusteve  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 3:43:52pm

re: #509 Cannadian Club Akbar

Drinking and guns. What could possibly go wrong? Oh, wait...

not the case...I have not heard where you can CC and drink

512 Varek Raith  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 3:44:08pm

re: #509 Cannadian Club Akbar

Drinking and guns. What could possibly go wrong? Oh, wait...

Drinking while driving = BAD.
Drinking while packing heat = GOOD.
Oy.

513 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 3:44:21pm

re: #482 ProLifeLiberal

He's a Socon, except on Pot.

And heroin.

Dumb bigot.

514 albusteve  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 3:44:25pm

re: #510 goddamnedfrank

Ron Paul is the Wombshifter.

heh...
2pts

515 Varek Raith  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 3:45:08pm

re: #511 albusteve

not the case...I have not heard where you can CC and drink

Ohio.

Ohio’s new law allowing concealed guns into bars took effect last week. Bar and restaurant owners

Are they on the honor system that they won't drink.
;)

516 Atlas Fails  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 3:45:26pm

I'm actually starting to change my opinion on OWS. I still can't get behind that goofy list of demands, but it's important to note that those demands were only proposed, not accepted, and were unofficial anyway. With the support of major labor unions and their leaders and the blessing of the President, it's looking more and more like young unemployed people and disenfranchised working stiffs, and less like a coalition of ANSWER-type freaks. I'm still a little skeptical, but my overall feelings about the movement have shifted from negative to cautiously optimistic.

Oh, and they can spell.

517 BishopX  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 3:45:35pm

re: #408 iceweasel

That would be cool too. No reason why we can't combine the two!

I think we should do it.

I've made a page so everyone can contribute ideas for "squares".

I'm thinking for columns we use:

- Racism
- Tax-Memes
- Religious hatred
- Anti-Science "facts"
- charges of corruption

518 William Barnett-Lewis  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 3:45:40pm

re: #505 Varek Raith

Er, I'm having an extremely difficult time seeing how this could have happened as described. I don't know of any 9mm on the market right now that will just "go off" from being dropped from a height of 1 or 2 feet. This may be the official line that they gave the cops (who in turn gave it to the media) but I can just about bet you that someone was dicking around with the safety off and his booger hook where it didn't belong.

519 Varek Raith  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 3:46:41pm

re: #518 wlewisiii

Er, I'm having an extremely difficult time seeing how this could have happened as described. I don't know of any 9mm on the market right now that will just "go off" from being dropped from a height of 1 or 2 feet. This may be the official line that they gave the cops (who in turn gave it to the media) but I can just about bet you that someone was dicking around with the safety off and his booger hook where it didn't belong.

I was wondering about that.
Thanks for the clarification.

520 albusteve  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 3:46:43pm

re: #515 Varek Raith

Ohio.

Are they on the honor system that they won't drink.
;)

well that's foolish....guns and honor systems are a recipe for failure...every law I've heard of restricts the alcohol, as it should

521 Cannadian Club Akbar  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 3:47:02pm

re: #518 wlewisiii

Upding for booger hook!!! HAHAHAHA!!!

522 Darth Vader Gargoyle  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 3:47:22pm

re: #518 wlewisiii

Er, I'm having an extremely difficult time seeing how this could have happened as described. I don't know of any 9mm on the market right now that will just "go off" from being dropped from a height of 1 or 2 feet. This may be the official line that they gave the cops (who in turn gave it to the media) but I can just about bet you that someone was dicking around with the safety off and his booger hook where it didn't belong.

QFT

Firearms don't just "go off" even if dropped. That story sounded better than "I was just a complete dumbshit".

523 Varek Raith  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 3:47:31pm

re: #520 albusteve

well that's foolish...guns and honor systems are a recipe for failure...every law I've heard of restricts the alcohol, as it should

We're dumb as hell sometimes.
It makes my head hurt.

524 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 3:47:49pm

re: #516 Atlas Fails

I changed my opinion from "don't give a fuck" to "don't give much of a fuck". Mostly due to the things the opponents say and write. Because if they say and write such things, OWS must not be that bad.

525 BongCrodny  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 3:47:58pm

re: #492 Sergey Romanov

Is that worth watching btw?

Short answer, "No."

Long answer, "No."

526 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 3:49:29pm

re: #445 Killgore Trout

A message from Anonymous to the 99%

[Video]
Top rated diary at DKOS
We Have Reached a Critical Mass: Powerful Video Message from Anonymous

Heh. Wish I could take that more seriously, what with all of the poetry and the daunting soundtrack. But then the mood gets destroyed with 4chan lingo at the end. Enh.

Alex Jones has a lot of drama and pathos in his latest video advertising his latest stunt of highjacking the currents of populism, too. His soundtrack sucks in comparison, though:

527 Killgore Trout  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 3:49:39pm

re: #491 BongCrodny

Hobo With A Shotgun!

I still haven't seen that yet. It looked really fun.

528 The Left  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 3:50:15pm

re: #517 BishopX

I've made a page so everyone can contribute ideas for "squares".

I'm thinking for columns we use:

- Racism
- Tax-Memes
- Religious hatred
- Anti-Science "facts"
- charges of corruption

Awesome!
Now the all important question: the centre square?

An easy one would be the racism category, charges that Obama is too black/not really black. (the number one and two problems the right has with Obama).

529 Kragar  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 3:51:54pm

Bank Lobbyists kill foreclosure regulation efforts in CA

As one of the epicenters of the foreclosure crisis, Californians by the tens of thousands have lost their homes. In most cases, banks have repossessed houses without bothering to re-negotiate interest payments to find foreclosure alternatives. And in a growing number of cases, “robo-signers” have allegedly forged documents and illegally foreclosed on borrowers. Since the foreclosure crisis is leading towards a spiraling decrease in home property values across the state, nearly everyone is affected.

A common sense idea to add transparency and accountability to the mortgage market died a quick death earlier this year. State Sen. Mark Leno (D-San Francisco) and State Sen. Darrell Steinberg (D-Sacramento) proposed SB729, a measure “to require banks to give people a definitive answer on loan modification, identify who owns the loan, and give borrowers legal recourse if banks don’t take these steps.”

The idea, embraced by consumer advocates and many foreclosure experts, did not even make it out of committee. State Sen. Juan Vargas (D-San Diego), the chairman of the banking committee, joined two Republican state senators in snuffing the bill. State Sen. Alex Padilla (D-Los Angeles) abstained from the vote, ensuring a 3-3 split (a tied vote does not allow the bill to proceed). Despite moving testimony from victims of foreclosure fraud and persuasive academic opinion, the bill died. To understand why, simply follow the money:

– Bank of America, a leading mortgage-lender in California, spent $173,703 lobbying this year in Sacramento. Disclosure reports show Bank of America hired lobbying firms like Nielsen Merksamer and Government Relations Counsel to kill SB729. Reports also show that Bank of America treated Vargas to dinner at the Ella Dining Room and Bar about a month after he voted to kill the foreclosure mitigation bill. Bank of America has contributed $5,500 in campaign contributions to Vargas and nearly $2,000 to Padilla.

– The California Mortgage Bankers Association, a lobbying group representing a number of mortgage lenders in the state, spent $55,711 lobbying in Sacramento this year. The bankers hired KP Public Affairs, a firm that doubles as the general counsel for the association, to help kill SB729. The group donated $4,000 to Vargas and $1,000 to Padilla recently.

– Wells Fargo spent $84,027 lobbying in Sacramento, and hired a firmed called Knudsen & Associates to help kill SB729. Wells Fargo has contributed $2,800 to Padilla and $2,000 to Vargas. Disclosure reports show agents for Wells Fargo took a state senator out to lunch shortly after the SB729 vote, but the disclosure forms appear to be incomplete because the name of the senator is not filled in.

530 Gepetto  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 3:52:14pm

re: #497 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

People are mourning Steve Jobs, though I don't see anybody in the OWS heroizing him.

i'm sad about it too. lots in the movement here are attaching it to the movement, tho.

531 Digital Display  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 3:52:23pm

re: #522 rwdflynavy

QFT

Firearms don't just "go off" even if dropped. That story sounded better than "I was just a complete dumbshit".

Perhaps the funniest story is when Plaxico went to a NYC Nghtclub..With a 9mm loaded with a shell in the chamber and the Safety off.. Then somehow he shoots himself...
How does that happen?

532 Kragar  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 3:52:45pm

re: #527 Killgore Trout

I still haven't seen that yet. It looked really fun.

Its not. Think Toxic Avenger or any of the other old Troma films, but with a political message slapped onto it.

533 jamesfirecat  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 3:54:11pm

re: #379 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

David Brin's Uplift War had all citizens follow strict guidelines about with whom they could have children with based off of both genetics and contributions to society.

Wait a moment it's been a while since I've read all those books, but as I recall it was only the recently uplifted species that were undergoing that sort of breeding guidelines so as to further the process of a successful uplift to create the most intelligent neo-chimps/dolphins/dogs I don't recall humans or any other non client race having to deal with similar rules...

534 Darth Vader Gargoyle  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 3:54:16pm

re: #531 HoosierHoops

Perhaps the funniest story is when Plaxico went to a NYC Nghtclub..With a 9mm loaded with a shell in the chamber and the Safety off.. Then somehow he shoots himself...
How does that happen?

Fucking guns, how do they work?
//

535 freetoken  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 3:54:21pm

re: #529 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Well, we now know that CA state legislators are cheaper to buy than Gov. Perry.

536 Varek Raith  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 3:55:10pm

I love capitalism and the free market.
The big banks don't.
Neither does the oil industry.
Or the insurance industry.
Or...ah fuck it.
;)

537 goddamnedfrank  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 3:55:48pm

re: #518 wlewisiii

Er, I'm having an extremely difficult time seeing how this could have happened as described. I don't know of any 9mm on the market right now that will just "go off" from being dropped from a height of 1 or 2 feet. This may be the official line that they gave the cops (who in turn gave it to the media) but I can just about bet you that someone was dicking around with the safety off and his booger hook where it didn't belong.

It shouldn't happen but it's not unheard of.

In the Jan. 2000 report the P229 was tested in 9mm and .40 calibers. The SP2340 was tested in 357 SIG caliber, which produces the highest pressures and demands the most from the pistol launching platform. Interestingly enough, the P229 passed the 9mm test and failed the .40 test due to trigger problems and failing one of the drop tests.

There's also nothing in the article to state that it's a modern market produced pistol. There's been a lot of issued and unissued Walther P38's hitting the import market lately.

538 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 3:56:10pm

re: #536 Varek Raith

I love capitalism and the free market.
The big banks don't.
Neither does the oil industry.
Or the insurance industry.
Or...ah fuck it.
;)

You are a Marxist and should be maced.

539 austin_blue  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 3:56:41pm

Afternoon, all. Hope you are well.

My mom stepped on a rainbow yesterday. I hope she's in a better place, but still...

540 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 3:56:54pm

re: #447 Gepetto

not yet. with the news that moveon.org, the larger unions,and the community organizing groups are moving into the occupy movement, the movement will soon be owned lock stock and barrel by the professional left. Once again, the 99% will be left holding the bag as an organic protest movement is co-opted by professional politics.

Also worth noting is a mega billionaire using his pet project to shake up the heart of an economic system to "make things better for the common man". This maneuver has worked brilliantly for him in the past, filling his pockets with loot every time he's run this hustle.

[Link: www.pantagraph.com...]

I dunno. Seems to be hyperbole, originally pushed by InfoWars/DrudgeReport convergence:

Image: drudgeinforwarsows.jpg

541 albusteve  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 3:57:28pm

re: #539 austin_blue

Afternoon, all. Hope you are well.

My mom stepped on a rainbow yesterday. I hope she's in a better place, but still...

she's gone?...so sorry bro

542 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 3:58:05pm

re: #524 Sergey Romanov

I changed my opinion from "don't give a fuck" to "don't give much of a fuck". Mostly due to the things the opponents say and write. Because if they say and write such things, OWS must not be that bad.

I'm glad/Schadenfreude young women in green hats with bear ears have them clutching their guns and bank statements.

Doesn't take much with those cowards.

543 Digital Display  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 3:58:27pm

re: #534 rwdflynavy

Fucking guns, how do they work?
//

LOL
And he had it in the waist band of a running suit...OK Who goes to a fancy Nightclub in NYC in a jogging outfit? When was the last time you tried that?

544 Kragar  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 3:58:48pm

re: #533 jamesfirecat

Wait a moment it's been a while since I've read all those books, but as I recall it was only the recently uplifted species that were undergoing that sort of breeding guidelines so as to further the process of a successful uplift to create the most intelligent neo-chimps/dolphins/dogs I don't recall humans or any other non client race having to deal with similar rules...

They mention humans still need to get genetic counseling and permission before having children and certain behavior would prevent them from being allowed.

545 Varek Raith  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 3:59:05pm

Lol.

"The actual tea party was a fucking felony! ... Did you know what the tea party actually was?"

546 albusteve  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 3:59:16pm

re: #543 HoosierHoops

LOL
And he had it in the waist band of a running suit...OK Who goes to a fancy Nightclub in NYC in a jogging outfit? When was the last time you tried that?

he's special....22mo worth

547 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 3:59:41pm

re: #530 Gepetto

i'm sad about it too. lots in the movement here are attaching it to the movement, tho.

I missed that part. Who has done that? Where is "here"?

548 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 4:01:04pm

re: #539 austin_blue

Afternoon, all. Hope you are well.

My mom stepped on a rainbow yesterday. I hope she's in a better place, but still...

I'm so sorry, a_b. So sorry.

549 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 4:01:35pm

re: #539 austin_blue

Afternoon, all. Hope you are well.

My mom stepped on a rainbow yesterday. I hope she's in a better place, but still...

Big hug.

Was this unexpected?

550 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 4:01:59pm

re: #540 000G

I dunno. Seems to be hyperbole, originally pushed by InfoWars/DrudgeReport convergence:

Image: drudgeinforwarsows.jpg

Lol I love that screenshot.

551 austin_blue  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 4:02:16pm

re: #541 albusteve

she's gone?...so sorry bro

Thanks, Steve.

We are burying her with Dad in the big Bone Orchard in Arlington. But get this- the earliest open date for the Chapel at Fort Myer is January 4th. So she'll be in the cooler for three months. Which is macabre.

552 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 4:02:44pm

re: #539 austin_blue

{{{austin_blue}}}

553 CuriousLurker  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 4:03:39pm

re: #539 austin_blue

Afternoon, all. Hope you are well.

My mom stepped on a rainbow yesterday. I hope she's in a better place, but still...

Oh, man. Losing a parent is always tough. I'm sorry. {{{austin_blue}}}

554 austin_blue  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 4:03:57pm

re: #549 SanFranciscoZionist

Big hug.

Was this unexpected?

No. End stage dementia. She Who Must Be Obeyed and I were up in Bawlmer this weekend to see her. We said our goodbyes and came home.

555 albusteve  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 4:04:03pm

re: #551 austin_blue

Thanks, Steve.

We are burying her with Dad in the big Bone Orchard in Arlington. But get this- the earliest open date for the Chapel at Fort Myer is January 4th. So she'll be in the cooler for three months. Which is macabre.

in my family we get incinerated and tossed onto a golf course or whatever...absolutely no funerals

556 The Ghost of a Flea  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 4:04:04pm

re: #510 goddamnedfrank

Ron Paul is the Wombshifter.

Wombgrifter.

557 austin_blue  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 4:05:28pm

re: #548 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

I'm so sorry, a_b. So sorry.

Thanks.

558 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 4:05:57pm

re: #528 iceweasel

An easy one would be the racism category, charges that Obama is too black/not really black. (the number one and two problems the right has with Obama).

Obama (and the bulk of African-Americans who are just as "mixed" as he is) reminds white conservatives about their history of anti-miscegenation laws: why they imposed them, and why they are still livid and seething over them having been overturned.

559 austin_blue  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 4:06:09pm

re: #552 Sergey Romanov

{{{austin_blue}}}

Thanks, Sergey.

560 Varek Raith  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 4:06:43pm

Sorry austin_blue.

561 William Barnett-Lewis  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 4:06:44pm

re: #531 HoosierHoops

Perhaps the funniest story is when Plaxico went to a NYC Nghtclub..With a 9mm loaded with a shell in the chamber and the Safety off.. Then somehow he shoots himself...
How does that happen?

Wasn't he carrying a Glock? It's very easy to have a negligent discharge of a Glock if you are not aware of what you're doing. It's one of the main reasons I'm not a fan of the design.

562 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 4:07:42pm

re: #554 austin_blue

No. End stage dementia. She Who Must Be Obeyed and I were up in Bawlmer this weekend to see her. We said our goodbyes and came home.

That's such a hard situation. Even when it's expected, it doesn't lessen the impact.

563 albusteve  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 4:08:29pm

re: #561 wlewisiii

Wasn't he carrying a Glock? It's very easy to have a negligent discharge of a Glock if you are not aware of what you're doing. It's one of the main reasons I'm not a fan of the design.

it would not have mattered if it was a bazooka...Burris is about as stupid as a human being can be

564 Lidane  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 4:08:38pm

re: #539 austin_blue

Afternoon, all. Hope you are well.

My mom stepped on a rainbow yesterday. I hope she's in a better place, but still...

Oh wow. I'm sorry to hear that. My sincere condolences. :(

565 austin_blue  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 4:09:01pm

re: #560 Varek Raith

Sorry austin_blue.

Thanks, VR. But it's been a long time coming. I'm hanging in there. Had a nice little cry when my baby sister called me with the news, but Death comes for us all.

566 austin_blue  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 4:09:41pm

re: #564 Lidane

Oh wow. I'm sorry to hear that. My sincere condolences. :(

Thanks, Homegirl.

567 Digital Display  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 4:09:43pm

re: #555 albusteve

in my family we get incinerated and tossed onto a golf course or whatever...absolutely no funerals

I always told the kids if they find me dead in a compromising situation..Feel free to toss me into a nearby Dumpster, Wipe the joint clean and then call 911 and report me missing..
/Always have a plan

568 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 4:10:07pm

By chance found this comment at dkos:

I'm a registered Republican. Heh heh heh. (0+ / 0-)

At the moment.

Because I can waste some Republicans' time.

I used to politely say "No, thank you" to people calling me for Republican causes and conservative causes.

Then one day I got inspired when an earnest young man called me with a spiel about a particularly awful Republican candidate. I realized that the more of his time I took up, the fewer calls he could make. So I told him how interesting I found his comments, but there were some things I didn't understand and asked him dumb question after dumb question. I took up about a half hour of his time.

A couple of hours later, I got a call from a pleasant-sounding woman supporting an anti-woman position I find particularly awful, and I listened to her, and asked some dumb questions, and some questions that sounded dumb but actually forced her to think through her position. Acting as if I was confused about some issues myself, I brought up different scenarios and asked her how she thought difficult situations should be handled. She actually really thought about them and realized that she wasn't as sure of her position as she thought she was.

In the past, pleasant and understanding as I try to be, I don't think I've ever changed anyone's mind by arguing with them.

But now my family members and some of my friends are doing this. It's become the favorite recreation of one of my sisters. "Now what's the name of that man with that...um...hair that...well, it kind of looks like he's got some animal sitting on his head? Tromp? Oh, Trump. Yes. What does he think about it?"

"Oh, I had no idea President Obama was a Muslim. Didn't I see him and his family attending a Christian church on the news? Or was that a different black family? They kind of look alike, do you know what I mean? I thought they said it was the President. Does he have one of those....oh, dear, what do you call them....the little carpets you get down and pray on? I've never seen that on the news. Does he do that in the Oval Office? Well, I'd like to know. Could you call me back if you find out? We usually eat dinner between five and six, and I go to physical therapy at two, so between 3:30 and 4:30 would be best."

"Kenyan, you say? Oh, my. I thought....didn't I see a copy of his full Hawaiian birth certificate on TV? Hawaii is a state, isn't it? I think I remember when it became a state. Or was that Alaska? I'm sure it wasn't Puerto Rico. No, I really think it was Hawaii that became a state and that I read that birth certificate on TV. Are you sure? Does that mean Arnold Schwarzenegger can't run for President?"

Maybe the amount of Republican time we manage to waste isn't all that significant, but maybe every little bit counts.

Every year I try to crochet enough warm hats for everyone who eats at the soup kitchen near our home. Since the number of hungry people keeps going up, it's become a large task, although by this time I could do it in my sleep. This year I'm trying to make 180. (I start in January.) So I just keep my yarn and crochet hook by the telephone, so when I get nut calls, I turn out hats while listening to political nonsense and asking questions.

Since I changed my party affiliation, I get calls every day. When I'm called for polls, I'm enthusiastic about the dumbest, low-numbers candidates Republican candidates, and if asked how Obama is doing I give him the highest rating. Since I am a (transient) Republican, I hope that messes with Republican minds.

I'll need to be working real hard on those hats over the next month, huh?

"Oh, ma'am, I'd cast my ballot for Newt Gingrich a hundred times if I could. Is there some way I could do that? Where in the Constitution does it say that, do you know?"

Love,
Elizabeth


by Old Gardener on Thu Oct 06, 2011 at 03:58:01 PM PDT

569 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 4:10:32pm

re: #450 CuriousLurker

Sorry for the slow response, but I'm in the middle of work. I'm going to put something right out on the table.

Do you remember this Page? I went to the trouble of finding examples for you and even scanning pages of my English-Arabic dictionary in an effort to try to explain things to you in good faith about how Muslims see things. You brushed it off pretty much dismissing all Muslim scholars in favor of Goldziher by saying that—in your non-Mulsim opinion—he "beat the pants off of any recent Grand Imam of Al-Azhar"

What that meant to me was that you, as a non-Muslim, didn't really give a damn who Muslims might listen to or what they might think WRT their own religion. Maybe that's not what you meant. Maybe it is. Either way it ended further dialog.

I still don't get what your problem is. When I want to know something about Islam, I refer to the scholars who have studied the issue. Preferably those doing so with scholarly standards and not a religious agenda – and yes, Goldziher is coryphaeus of scholars of Islam and in that regard beats the pants off any religious authority of Islam (a judgement which, btw, does not depend on my non-muslim opinion but is predicated on a simple acknowledgement of the primacy of academia in epistemic matters – it has nothing to do with "being" Muslim, something Goldziher has written about extensively, btw).

And when I want to know Muslims, I will talk to Muslims. But those are two different things.

Do you remember this one, where I gave up? Did you even realize that I said "You win," not becuase you convinced me of anything, but because I desperately wanted to extricate myself from a debate had become so doggedly drawn out that I'd lost all interest in the subject?

No idea how I should have realized that. I usually choose to err on the side of caution but maintain awareness of my own guesswork being just that.

You're obviously an intelligent person, but not everyone enjoys 9-hour debates (like you & Obdi had recently), and sometimes your tone is abrasive—like with the Saudi women Pages—which also puts some people off and kills conversation.

That's okay.

It's a free country and you're obviously free to interact with people here however you please as long as it's within the rules, but if you're truly interested in learning new things, you might want to reconsider your approach to people as one size doesn't fit all when dealing with so many different personalities.

It's a free internet. I am learning a lot.

570 austin_blue  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 4:11:00pm

re: #567 HoosierHoops

I always told the kids if they find me dead in a compromising situation..Feel free to toss me into a nearby Dumpster, Wipe the joint clean and then call 911 and report me missing..
/Always have a plan

You always cheer me up! Going to Dallas?

571 Killgore Trout  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 4:12:51pm

An interesting interview with the man who invented the Occupy Wall Street protests....
"We Are Creating a Tahrir Moment": Adbusters Editor Kalle Lasn on the Magazine's Role in Igniting the Occupy Wall Street Protests
No matter which side of the issue you're on I think it's an interesting read. Here are some highlights.

We've always talked about cultural revolution, and we've also been mightily inspired by the Situationists who back in 1968 were able to, with their philosophies and their aesthetics and with their very special view of what was happening — the "society of the spectacle" — were able to instigate what many people called the first global revolution, when the Paris uprising reverberated around the world.

...

We have corporate power at its zenith. And the financial people and the cooperate lobbies in Washington have basically turned all of America into a corporate state. The whole planet is becoming Planet Inc.
...
I basically believe we have to reinvent the global economy and the global economic system. And this movement that is starting now, this Occupy Wall Street movement which will likely spread and gather more strength on October 6th, when they have that big moment in Washington and on October 15 with some big actions planned in Europe, and hopefully on November 4th when the G20 leaders meet in France — we could very well have another global mind-shift moment similar to what the Situationists pulled off in '68, when millions of people erupted around the world. We could have people demanding a 1 percent "Robin Hood Tax" on all financial transactions, along with all kinds of other demands. It could be the moment when we the people take change and say that we don't like what our leaders are doing anymore.

That bolded part is hard to interpret but I think he's hoping that the usual G20 riots will erupt globally.
He has some interesting ideas on economics and I'm personally very anti-consumerist myself. However, I won't be joining his movement.

572 Lidane  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 4:13:08pm

Let me tell y'all what it's like
Being male, middle-class and white...

Man, Goodhair has it tough. At least that's what Lindsey Graham tells me:

[Link: thinkprogress.org...]

573 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 4:13:55pm

re: #453 Sergey Romanov

The eternally sameself prophecy of the cynic. ;-)

574 Only The Lurker Knows  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 4:14:12pm

re: #539 austin_blue

My condolences. Lost my Sister back in June. :-(

575 albusteve  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 4:14:23pm

re: #562 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

That's such a hard situation. Even when it's expected, it doesn't lessen the impact.

you are exactly right about that, judging from my own experience...I prepared myself for a year and when my dad died promptly went into shock for a few weeks

576 Digital Display  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 4:15:36pm

re: #570 austin_blue

You always cheer me up! Going to Dallas?

Kind regards..
I'm going to the Moose Lodge at 10am Saturday for the game..It's a big pot luck with booze, Big Screen TV's and lots of crazy Football fans..
I'm planning to go to Jerry's House in Dallas this year...9th wonder of the world I hear..

577 albusteve  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 4:15:37pm

re: #567 HoosierHoops

I always told the kids if they find me dead in a compromising situation..Feel free to toss me into a nearby Dumpster, Wipe the joint clean and then call 911 and report me missing..
/Always have a plan

"all you girls outa here, now!"

578 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 4:16:01pm

re: #462 000G

Mao is to be repudiated for when he didn't act Mao enough?

Which btw sounds a lot like conservatives talk about Reagan and try to explain away his unconservative behavior.

579 Killgore Trout  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 4:16:17pm

re: #571 Killgore Trout

For those not familiar with the Situationists....

The Situationist International (SI) was a restricted group of international revolutionaries founded in 1957, and which had its peak in its influence on the unprecedented general strike of May 1968 in France.

With their ideas rooted in Marxism and the 20th century European artistic avant-gardes, they advocated experiences of life being alternative to those admitted by the capitalist order,

No surprise there.

580 prairiefire  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 4:16:17pm

re: #539 austin_blue

Afternoon, all. Hope you are well.

My mom stepped on a rainbow yesterday. I hope she's in a better place, but still...

I'm sorry for your loss, Austin Blue.

581 albusteve  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 4:16:55pm

re: #570 austin_blue

You always cheer me up! Going to Dallas?

why?...what's up?
(snort)

582 Varek Raith  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 4:17:33pm

re: #581 albusteve

why?...what's up?
(snort)

Cheer up, they were winning big for a little bit in that game.
;)

583 austin_blue  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 4:17:35pm

re: #574 Bubblehead II

My condolences. Lost my Sister back in June. :-(

It's one thing to lose a parent to dementia at 83, quite another to lose a sib. Condolences backatcha.

584 CuriousLurker  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 4:18:54pm

re: #569 000G

I still don't get what your problem is.

My problem is that I don't have the patience to try figure out a way to communicate with you in a way that I can derive any intellectual pleasure or satisfaction from. So I'll simply stop interacting with you. No harm no foul—can't get along with everyone. Problem solved.

585 Varek Raith  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 4:19:18pm
586 austin_blue  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 4:19:42pm

re: #553 CuriousLurker

Oh, man. Losing a parent is always tough. I'm sorry. {{{austin_blue}}}

Thanks, CL. My best to you and yours.

587 albusteve  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 4:19:46pm

re: #582 Varek Raith

Cheer up, they were winning big for a little bit in that game.
;)

the Lions game?...just another heart attack for me...have you ever seen a more complete team for one half?...no, never...I tell ya, I just shake my head and mope

588 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 4:21:48pm

re: #480 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Ron Paul: Greater Access To Birth Control Makes A ‘Mockery’ Of Christians

Heh. Wonder how many potheads pay enough attention to realize that they have been worshipping a conservative?

589 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 4:22:55pm

re: #584 CuriousLurker

My problem is that I don't have the patience to try figure out a way to communicate with you in a way that I can derive any intellectual pleasure or satisfaction from. So I'll simply stop interacting with you. No harm no foul—can't get along with everyone. Problem solved.

Alrighty then.

590 zora  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 4:23:12pm

re: #572 Lidane

if lindsey graham has been intimidated for being a white man in the south for his whole life. i have to believe that his intimidaters thought he was a lesbian. that's the only way this makes sense. or he could just be a liar.

591 William Barnett-Lewis  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 4:23:42pm

re: #587 albusteve

the Lions game?...just another heart attack for me...have you ever seen a more complete team for one half?...no, never...I tell ya, I just shake my head and mope

Right now I just want Detroit & Green Bat to keep winning. I want to be able to take a break from deer hunting this fall and scream at a TV showing the biggest football game of the season instead of the usual meaningless Thanksgiving Day game.

592 austin_blue  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 4:23:43pm

re: #580 prairiefire

I'm sorry for your loss, Austin Blue.

Thanks, PF. Appreciated.

593 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 4:24:23pm

re: #575 albusteve

you are exactly right about that, judging from my own experience...I prepared myself for a year and when my dad died promptly went into shock for a few weeks

Yeah, I was called upon to help out my father with dementia after years and years of estrangement. I did it for 4 years, despite our bad history.

When he passed in 2010, well...it's still difficult. You never know how it will affect you until it actually happens.

594 Only The Lurker Knows  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 4:24:29pm

re: #583 austin_blue

Thanks.

595 William Barnett-Lewis  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 4:24:47pm

re: #588 000G

Heh. Wonder how many potheads pay enough attention to realize that they have been worshipping a conservative?

None of them. They really don't care about anything else. Even sillier than the Goldbugs that way but much less dangerous.

596 albusteve  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 4:27:08pm

re: #591 wlewisiii

Right now I just want Detroit & Green Bat to keep winning. I want to be able to take a break from deer hunting this fall and scream at a TV showing the biggest football game of the season instead of the usual meaningless Thanksgiving Day game.

I'm a Michigander, but a Cowboy fan...I'm long tired of the great Thanksgiving Day Lions game being a throwaway...I'm thrilled for the fans...but looking back, the fucking Lions have beat the CBs many times when they shouldn't have...if both teams keep winning, the GB/Lions game will be epic...I love it

597 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 4:30:34pm

re: #590 zora

if lindsey graham has been intimidated for being a white man in the south for his whole life. i have to believe that his intimidaters thought he was a lesbian.

And even that would be ruled out unless he is a transgendered one who now identifies as hetero.

But this is Lindsey Graham we're talking about, who gets gaybaited by even his own party.

that's the only way this makes sense. or he could just be a liar.

It's very trendy these days for white conservatives to count themselves as victims because they're no longer allowed to legally victimize others. It really does boil down to all that.

598 freetoken  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 4:31:10pm

Slowly but surely, we are developing the means for Human 2.0 :


'Genetic biopsy' of human eggs might help pick the best for IVF

Given the stakes of in vitro fertilization, prospective parents and their doctors need the best information they can get about the eggs they will extract, attempt to fertilize, and implant. New research at Brown University and Women & Infants Hospital of Rhode Island has found a way to see which genes each egg cell is expressing without harming it. As researchers learn more about how those genes affect embryo development, the new technique could ultimately give parents and doctors a preview of which eggs are likely to make the most viable embryos.

[...]

599 Digital Display  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 4:32:36pm

re: #596 albusteve

I'm a Michigander, but a Cowboy fan...I'm long tired of the great Thanksgiving Day Lions game being a throwaway...I'm thrilled for the fans...but looking back, the fucking Lions have beat the CBs many times when they shouldn't have...if both teams keep winning, the GB/Lions game will be epic...I love it

Thanksgiving football has evolved into a meaningless football day..
I say the first game should be a rematch of the Superbowl
the second game can be the Lions for tradition sake
third game? Please something America will watch

600 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 4:35:12pm

re: #529 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Bank Lobbyists kill foreclosure regulation efforts in CA

Really sad.

601 freetoken  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 4:35:33pm

Scientists create faster DNA analyzer: What does it mean for us?

Wouldn't it be great if there were a machine that could help diagnose a patient before a doctor even has a chance to sit down? A new report suggests such a machine might arrive sooner than its sci-fi sound of it suggests.

Engineers at in Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory in Livermore, Calif., have developed a DNA analyzer that can process samples in minutes, instead of a half hour. The machine takes the tiniest sample and sequences DNA from it by a process called a polymerase chain reaction (PCR). It's the same process behind forensic tests for crimes, paternity tests, and tests looking for genetic diseases.

[...]

Some in the medical profession are afraid of patients learning about their own DNA and are behind a move to make consumer genetic testing illegal without a doctor's involvement. Yet the real possibility exists that within just a few years a full DNA sequencing could become cheap enough for many Americans to afford.

602 freetoken  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 4:36:55pm

re: #600 000G

Really sad.

Amazing what a couple of thousand dollars and a free lunch can accomplish.

603 albusteve  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 4:37:12pm

re: #599 HoosierHoops

Thanksgiving football has evolved into a meaningless football day..
I say the first game should be a rematch of the Superbowl
the second game can be the Lions for tradition sake
third game? Please something America will watch

Thanksgiving belongs to the Lions...they invented it...Dallas agreed to make it a daylong event....Thanksgiving 1966 was the first time I ever saw the CBs on tv, the first time for the double game...I was hooked, and the rest is history

604 Achilles Tang  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 4:37:22pm

re: #588 000G

“Many others oppose it (birth control) out of strict moral conviction, and their voices should be heard at least to the extent that an authentic opportunity to exempt be provided.”

Want to be exempt? Don't use birth control and save the system that cost for you.

Crazy or not, I didn't think Ron Paul was stupid, in the usual sense anyway.

605 albusteve  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 4:38:08pm

re: #600 000G

Really sad.

so, who drives the bus?...ask yourself that

606 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 4:38:18pm

re: #526 000G

Just skimmed through it - the pompous verbiage makes me puke.

607 albusteve  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 4:39:15pm

re: #601 freetoken

Scientists create faster DNA analyzer: What does it mean for us?

Some in the medical profession are afraid of patients learning about their own DNA and are behind a move to make consumer genetic testing illegal without a doctor's involvement. Yet the real possibility exists that within just a few years a full DNA sequencing could become cheap enough for many Americans to afford.

might even exonerate you from a crime....duh

608 Achilles Tang  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 4:42:05pm

re: #598 freetoken

Slowly but surely, we are developing the means for Human 2.0 :

'Genetic biopsy' of human eggs might help pick the best for IVF

I'm waiting for the shit to hit the fan when the usual suspects notice the word in this sentence.

What's the breakthrough? Scientists say they've successfully cloned a human embryo that can create customized stem cells.

Stem cell advance has scientists buzzing

609 albusteve  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 4:43:59pm

re: #608 Naso Tang

I'm waiting for the shit to hit the fan when the usual suspects notice the word in this sentence.

Stem cell advance has scientists buzzing

we need primate type humans to pick tomatoes and blow leaves...this is gonna be big, really big

610 freetoken  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 4:44:13pm

re: #608 Naso Tang

Yup.

611 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 4:44:50pm

re: #568 Sergey Romanov

By chance found this comment at dkos:

Heh. Asking dumb questions: the Socratic Method.

No wonder he was sentenced to death. ///

612 BongCrodny  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 4:45:29pm

I'm going to go on a bit of a rant here; I hope everybody will bear with me.

A few weeks ago, I found myself faced with the unpleasant option of having to apply for the Food Supplement Program. The powers that be in D.C. had seen fit to suspend my unemployment benefits; at the time I applied I had no income and no savings.

When I was at the FSP office, there were maybe about 40-50 people there, all waiting patiently (emphasis on "patiently" -- although there was the one guy who kept talking about how it was fucked up that a person could trespass on his property and he had to shoot him in the leg, for crying out loud) for their turn with a caseworker.

Of the 40-50 or so people there, there were a number of people with kids; mostly what appeared to be either single mothers or moms with kids whose husbands were either working or, possibly, sitting at home while the wife went out to apply for the benefits.

What really broke my heart was there were maybe a half-dozen to a dozen people significantly older than me, some of whom looked lost and confused, like they had absolutely no understanding of the circumstances that caused them to be there looking for "a handout."

Maybe these folks (and I include myself here) are leeches. What I saw -- and maybe my interpretation of this is incorrect -- was that the vast majority of these people are just trying to feed their kids or maybe just trying to keep the wolf from the door or maybe even just trying to keep cat food off the dinner table. Most of these people were inordinately patient, spending upwards of three hours to get (in my case) a food supplement of $150 that's supposed to last a full month. Most of the "customers" there were extremely polite, offering their seats to the older folks.

Maybe some people do abuse the safety net; maybe it's even epidemic. I can only talk about what I saw the one time I was there, and what I saw sure didn't seem overly fraudulent.

No amount of "growing the pie" is going to improve people's lives if there's no pie left by the time it gets to them.

For what it's worth, the unemployment compensation issue was resolved in my favor. I've now got a little money in my checking account and, although I'm eligible for further food supplements, I won't be asking again until I'm completely out of options. But should that happen, I won't in the slightest be embarrassed to take advantage of that option if I'm needy.

But that's not to say everyone should feel the same way: as a single man, I don't have to worry about kids' clothing or vaccinations or school expenses or any of the dozens of things a laid-off family man (or woman) has to worry about.

I'll always feel that one of the greatest things this country has done for its citizens is the social safety net, and no amount of hand-wringing and crocodile tears about millionaires "already paying more than their fair share" is ever going to make me feel any different.

[/rant]

613 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 4:50:22pm

re: #606 Sergey Romanov

Just skimmed through it - the pompous verbiage makes me puke.

But creeping communism!

/eyeroll

Forget Black grandmas like Shirley Sherrod. This is what the rw are running frightened of this week, people putting autotuned fake British accented videos on youtube in the Citizens United age.

Absurd.

614 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 4:52:41pm

re: #613 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

But creeping communism!

/eyeroll

Forget Black grandmas like Shirley Sherrod. This is what the rw are running frightened of this week, people putting autotuned fake British accented videos on youtube in the Citizens United age.

Absurd.

Now, now. You should always watch out for that Communism creep. It will sneak up on you behind your back and BAM! Sharia.

615 Decatur Deb  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 4:53:10pm

re: #612 BongCrodny


During the 2008 campaign the president-to-be dropped a one-liner I have used since 1962: "It is the duty of the strong to help the weak. It is the duty of the weak to become strong". Don't know where I picked up such an idea but I was religious then, and reading a lot of commies.

616 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 4:53:58pm

re: #579 Killgore Trout

For those not familiar with the Situationists...

No surprise there.

Pretty much every non-conservative movement of the 20th century (with some anarchist exceptions) was somehow rooted in Marxism. Heck, even the Surrealists were largely communist…

617 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 4:54:13pm

re: #612 BongCrodny

Maybe these folks (and I include myself here) are leeches.

Doubtful. They are probably working stiffs who paid into a system and are now drawing on what they paid into when they need it.

It's called an insurance program for a reason. This is one of the reasons WHY we pay taxes.

618 freetoken  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 4:55:11pm

re: #612 BongCrodny

Your situation reflects what is happening to millions of people around this country, those who used to have a job but now can find no home for them in the World of Work, as it used to be called.

BTW, unemployment claims went up slightly last week, though the number of net jobs being created is still positive. There is a very large pool of those without work who are not on the official unemployment rolls who are now (as Christmas season approaches) start looking for work.

The good news is that some economic indicators (shipping, retail sales) are improving.

619 Achilles Tang  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 4:56:26pm

re: #612 BongCrodny

Yes, although as a landlord (struggling to make it worthwhile when it is impossible to sell out) I have seen my share of those on assistance. Some are the nicest people in the world, but I could name more than a few who rip off the system, the landlord, and anyone else who comes too close.

620 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 4:56:34pm

re: #616 000G

What about post-Soviet Russian democrats?

621 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 4:57:12pm

re: #614 Sergey Romanov

Now, now. You should always watch out for that Communism creep. It will sneak up on you behind your back and BAM! Sharia.

And Zionism.

Homogay and race-mixing, too.

It's all very French.

622 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 4:58:17pm

re: #605 albusteve

so, who drives the bus?...ask yourself that

The bus driver.

There, that was easy.

623 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 4:59:38pm

re: #620 Sergey Romanov

What about post-Soviet Russian democrats?

Mh. Collapse of Soviet Union was a game changer. Pretty much ended the 20th century, kinda like 1968 ended the 70s. ;-)

624 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 5:00:47pm

re: #623 000G

I'll let you off the hook for this one. /

625 engineer cat  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 5:01:09pm

re: #579 Killgore Trout

For those not familiar with the Situationists...

No surprise there.

the Situationist's philosophy was kind of... diffuse and not really well formed... but one idea of theirs that i like is that what is presented to us as conflicting political points of view and political conflict is a "spectacle" - designed to distract us while the real business is conducted just out of view

they were against the idea of people being presented with media-defined 'choices' that served merely to make them passive spectators and consumers in a commercial market created reality

626 laZardo  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 5:03:03pm

re: #612 BongCrodny

From one EBT user to another, upding.

627 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 5:03:24pm

re: #616 000G

Pretty much every non-conservative movement of the 20th century (with some anarchist exceptions) was somehow rooted in Marxism. Heck, even the Surrealists were largely communist…

Not really. The Civil Rights movement -- the one with the most visible impact -- predates Marxism by nearly a century.

Free African Society

See also: A.M.E. Church

628 CuriousLurker  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 5:03:57pm

re: #612 BongCrodny

Well said. I know it couldn't have been easy to put yourself out there like that. There is no shame whatsoever in needing help—even the healthiest, wealthiest, most educated & secure among us is only a disaster, accident, or catastrophic illness away from needing help themselves (whether they realize it or not).

Thanks for reminding me that I need to be more patient when I feel a snark attack or the urge to generalize coming on...we aren't always aware of what other members are going through and how that might have a big impact not only on what they say, but also on what they hear & feel when we say something.

{{BongCrodny}}}

629 ProGunLiberal  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 5:04:31pm

One of my friends here got Thyroid Cancer (Found out today. Been very busy here with school and stuff).

How terminal is it? Is the prognosis better than, say, Pancreatic? It was found recently.

630 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 5:04:47pm

re: #627 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

Not really. The Civil Rights movement -- the one with the most visible impact -- predates Marxism by nearly a century.

Free African Society

See also: A.M.E. Church/

Okay, free passes for Americans, too, then.

Russian-American Imperialists! //

631 Killgore Trout  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 5:04:54pm

re: #616 000G

Pretty much every non-conservative movement of the 20th century (with some anarchist exceptions) was somehow rooted in Marxism. Heck, even the Surrealists were largely communist…

Well, i guess most people don't seem very bothered by it anymore. I just thought the philosophy of the protest organizers might be of interest.

632 BishopX  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 5:05:15pm

re: #528 iceweasel

Awesome!
Now the all important question: the centre square?

An easy one would be the racism category, charges that Obama is too black/not really black. (the number one and two problems the right has with Obama).

Sorry for the delay (dinner) I think scandal (which replaces charges of corruption) will be the center row. That way the moonbats can contribute as well. Center tile will probably be sex scandal or sex scandal rumors, unless something better comes out.

633 albusteve  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 5:06:37pm

re: #622 000G

The bus driver.

There, that was easy.

the same response you'd get from 90% of the voters....the fact that the feds and WS have wrecked their precarious lives cuts into DWTS, and until the masses wake up, the OWS gig will seem pretty insignificant to me...the vast power, the tap to riches or the breadline, the most powerful gesture in America, is the vote...but you need to be smart to pull it off and we are not that...Americans are elsewhere in the reality world of celebrity worship

634 freetoken  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 5:07:24pm

re: #631 Killgore Trout

I just can't see our American society resonating to much of the ideology of those whom you've identified as the protest organizers.

635 laZardo  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 5:07:50pm

re: #633 albusteve

...so who's going to stop Wall Street if it's not the feds?

And if it can't be stopped, why complain?

636 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 5:08:27pm

re: #631 Killgore Trout

Well, i guess most people don't seem very bothered by it anymore. I just thought the philosophy of the protest organizers might be of interest.

Oh, it is, fret not.

Old school commie-baiting efforts went out of style with pedal pushers and bouffant hairstyles, though.

637 albusteve  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 5:08:36pm

re: #635 laZardo

...so who's going to stop Wall Street if it's not the feds?

And if it can't be stopped, why complain?

not sure what you are implying

638 Obdicut  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 5:10:02pm

re: #631 Killgore Trout

I think it's been pretty well established that the ANSWER and Absuster guys are extremists.

But the protest itself, is not extreme. It's more incoherent than anything else, but it's certainly not a Marxist protest.

I think it is very important to note that there are actual revolutionaries who actually want to use protests like this to overthrow the system.

However, I think the likelihood of them doing so-- or even the likelihood of recruiting significant numbers of people to their cause-- is very low.

They're going to great lengths, the organizers, to pretend that they're kind of 'apolotical'. While this means that a lot of people who would reject them if they knew who they were come to the protests, it also means that those people can't really be said to be following them or influenced by them.

639 wrenchwench  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 5:10:10pm

re: #636 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

Oh, it is, fret not.

Old school commie-baiting efforts went out of style with pedal pushers and bouffant hairstyles, though.

Pedal pushers are out of style? :(

Oh, the pants! :)

640 Obdicut  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 5:11:21pm

re: #629 ProLifeLiberal

My wife says 'usually very treatable', obviously depends when they caught it.

Nothing at all like pancreatic.

641 albusteve  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 5:12:53pm

re: #639 wrenchwench

Pedal pushers are out of style? :(

Oh, the pants! :)

I've been fiddling with a Pompadour lately...I'm getting closer

642 ProGunLiberal  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 5:14:30pm

re: #640 Obdicut

That's good news to hear.

I've been hearing of the declining health of my grandfather. I was afraid of losing other people.

643 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 5:14:51pm

re: #630 000G

Okay, free passes for Americans, too, then.

Russian-American Imperialists! //

Stalin's Negro Soviet Republic!!!

It's a plot!

Image: racemixingiscomunism.jpg

644 windsagio  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 5:15:26pm

re: #638 Obdicut

I think the protests are far beyond the ability of the initial organizers to control, its the flip side of the social media bit.

645 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 5:16:33pm

re: #631 Killgore Trout

Sure is. But how significant is it?

The Worker's movement in Germany came to be politically represented largely by the Social Democrats (SPD). They were firmly marxist from the 1890s on. That started changing mostly in the Weimar Republic, when they were competing against the Communists for the votes of the workers (a bitter fight only interrupted, not ended, by Hitler, I believe). It was only in 1959 that they officially stopped endorsing Marxism. West Germany had been a reality already for 10 years. Had Marxism ever significantly influenced SPD politics in government? Hardly. If anything, it helped spawn spinoff movements that actually took Marx seriously and wanted to go down the dogmatic path.

646 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 5:16:53pm

re: #630 000G

Okay, free passes for Americans, too, then.

Russian-American Imperialists! //

[Link: tinyurl.com...]

647 albusteve  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 5:17:25pm

darn...there doesn't seem to be a WS protest here in ABQ...so where is WS exactly?

648 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 5:17:29pm

re: #633 albusteve

the same response you'd get from 90% of the voters...the fact that the feds and WS have wrecked their precarious lives cuts into DWTS, and until the masses wake up, the OWS gig will seem pretty insignificant to me...the vast power, the tap to riches or the breadline, the most powerful gesture in America, is the vote...but you need to be smart to pull it off and we are not that...Americans are elsewhere in the reality world of celebrity worship

Dude, I am not an American. And your screed reads like coming from a generic Infowarrior.

649 The Ghost of a Flea  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 5:17:29pm

WallBuilders Enlists Christopher Columbus & Reconstructionist Eidsmoe in Christian Nation Crusade

[Link: www.rightwingwatch.org...]

The dogwhistle of Christianity plus white destiny is getting louder. This Eidsmoe guy is a total piece of work.

Note that while the RWW article focuses on the Wallbuilder's invocation of Columbus as guided by the Holy Spirit--who presumably told him the Taino would be far happier as mine slaves--but also Hernando fricking Cortez. You know, the guy who wrote long letters about "I'm totally conquering the Aztecs so I can rule New Spain and also GOLD."

650 windsagio  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 5:17:56pm

there's absolutely zero chance of a marxist or anarchist organziation or even ethos to get any real power in the USA.

651 albusteve  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 5:18:39pm

re: #648 000G

Dude, I am not an American. And your screed reads like coming from a generic Infowarrior.

is that cool or what?

652 bratwurst  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 5:19:02pm

re: #647 albusteve

darn...there doesn't seem to be a WS protest here in ABQ

I am over a thousand miles away and even I know you are wrong!

[Link: www.kob.com...]

653 windsagio  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 5:19:14pm

re: #647 albusteve

it seems to be filtering down from the bigger cities to the smaller ones.

Even to the point of Occupy Seattle being a few days before Occupy Portland was.

654 Obdicut  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 5:19:14pm

re: #644 windsagio

I'm going to try to do some polling of people when I'm there tomorrow, if I feel good enough.

This weekend is supposed to be beautiful, so I expect it to be lively over the weekend as well.

655 Kragar  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 5:19:28pm

re: #650 windsagio

there's absolutely zero chance of a marxist or anarchist organziation or even ethos to get any real power in the USA.

CREEPING SHARIA MARXIST ANARCHISM IS JUST AROUND THE CORNER!!!

656 wrenchwench  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 5:20:29pm

re: #641 albusteve

I've been fiddling with a Pompadour lately...I'm getting closer

Pony tail is the only way to go.

Actually, mine is braided today.

657 albusteve  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 5:21:05pm

re: #652 bratwurst

I am over a thousand miles away and even I know you are wrong!

[Link: www.kob.com...]

I really don't know...but I'm having fun regardless

658 windsagio  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 5:21:17pm

re: #654 Obdicut

I was actually gonna go down today to the one in PDX, but the weather is ugly and I was a bit concerned about the police :p

(unless they got their permitting worked out there was GOING to be a problem, should probably look it up actually)

659 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 5:22:01pm

re: #646 Sergey Romanov

[Link: tinyurl.com...]

Very cute.

660 windsagio  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 5:22:12pm

re: #655 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

It's well worth noting that they ABSOLUTELY insisted that there was communist, or at least soviet backing behind the Civil Rights Movement too.

Its kind of a sad cliche at this point.

661 Kragar  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 5:22:32pm

re: #656 wrenchwench

Pony tail is the only way to go.

Actually, mine is braided today.

Number 3 clippers, number 5 for the top, faded in.

Letting it grow out for winter.

662 freetoken  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 5:22:49pm

re: #649 The Ghost of a Flea

The "white destiny" theme, as you've termed it, is indeed struggling to become unshackled by the need to be PC. That's why I've been PaleoPat's theme this past month with openly criticizing one-man one-vote democracy, etc. The whole neo-confederate pile wants to come out of the closet.

663 Cheechako  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 5:23:22pm

Until the OWS establishes some meaningful goals and ideas I don't think they will get very far. It is interesting to note that the RW media talkers are working very hard to dismiss the OWS movement. I get the impression they don't want this movement to get established as they are perceiving OWS as a threat to RW ideals.

664 wrenchwench  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 5:23:53pm

re: #652 bratwurst

I am over a thousand miles away and even I know you are wrong!

[Link: www.kob.com...]

Wow. 200 is big for Albuquerque.

Albuquerque police blocked traffic while marchers chanted "Whose street - our street,” as they abandoned sidewalks and walked Central Avenue alongside traffic.

The police blocked the street! Arrest them!

665 Big Joe  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 5:24:03pm

re: #656 wrenchwench

Pony tail is the only way to go.

Actually, mine is braided today.

I had a ponytail until it couldn't hide my bald spot. Now I cut my own hair with a #2 attachment. I haven't been to a barber since the early 80s.

666 Digital Display  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 5:24:03pm

re: #653 windsagio

it seems to be filtering down from the bigger cities to the smaller ones.

Even to the point of Occupy Seattle being a few days before Occupy Portland was.

Well then the Capitalist better get on the ball and start selling Knit hats, protest signs and spray paint ASAP to the small cities..

667 albusteve  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 5:24:09pm

re: #656 wrenchwench

Pony tail is the only way to go.

Actually, mine is braided today.

been there long ago...another month and it all gets shaved off

668 engineer cat  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 5:24:24pm

herman cain explains that by "unemployed people' - who he said should blame themselves and not wall st - he means the OWS demonstrators

add this to the conservative lexicon where we have already found out that 'submission' means 'respect'

669 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 5:24:25pm

I'm checking in with the "Occupy SF" website.

Clicked on the live streaming feed to look at the demo.

It began by playing me a Zappos ad.

Facepalm, people, facepalm.

670 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 5:24:26pm

re: #649 The Ghost of a Flea

WallBuilders Enlists Christopher Columbus & Reconstructionist Eidsmoe in Christian Nation Crusade

[Link: www.rightwingwatch.org...]

The dogwhistle of Christianity plus white destiny is getting louder. This Eidsmoe guy is a total piece of work.

One of the best people to ask about Eidsmoe would be Anita Hill, as she was faculty at Oral Roberts University at the same time as Michele Bachmann.

I still want to know if MB took any classes with her. I think it's funny that neither person is saying...

671 Kragar  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 5:24:44pm

re: #663 Cheechako

Until the OWS establishes some meaningful goals and ideas I don't think they will get very far. It is interesting to note that the RW media talkers are working very hard to dismiss the OWS movement. I get the impression they don't want this movement to get established as they are perceiving OWS as a threat to RW ideals.

I think its a safe bet to say they'll do everything in their power to derail it before it picks up even more steam.

672 freetoken  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 5:25:38pm

re: #663 Cheechako

I perceive that the OWS is trying to tap into the same market of disenfranchisement that the Tea Partying organizers have tapped - the huge pool of unemployed and underwater (with houses, cars, college debt etc.) Americans who are losing their way in our economy and are afraid (rightly, I might add) of becoming permanently poor.

673 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 5:26:02pm

re: #663 Cheechako

Until the OWS establishes some meaningful goals and ideas I don't think they will get very far. It is interesting to note that the RW media talkers are working very hard to dismiss the OWS movement. I get the impression they don't want this movement to get established as they are perceiving OWS as a threat to RW ideals.

Yeah, but they perceive EVERYTHING as a threat to RW ideals.

One thing to bear in mind is that the RWNJ crowd has a vested interest in promoting the demos and making them seem not only scary, but SIGNIFICANT.

674 recusancy  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 5:26:06pm

re: #669 SanFranciscoZionist

I'm checking in with the "Occupy SF" website.

Clicked on the live streaming feed to look at the demo.

It began by playing me a Zappos ad.

Facepalm, people, facepalm.

It's because it's "Livestream". Occupy SF didn't put the ad there. Livestream did.

675 windsagio  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 5:26:15pm

funny stuff from a liveblog about the Portland event (source)

3:30 pm: Still a very white crowd. People still in the streets at SW Broadway and Morrison, but MAX and cars passing through.

5 pm: Looks like the occupation will be from Salmon to Madison between Southwest 3rd and 4th in two parks. People are starting to leave if they're not camping. An officer Helfrich says, "I don't think they're gonna stay overnight. Not once it starts raining." He says ultimately it's probably up to the mayor.

5:19: A group of hula hoopers seem to be the first to claim a spot in alpha camp.

676 wrenchwench  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 5:27:07pm

re: #665 mracb

I had a ponytail until it couldn't hide my bald spot. Now I cut my own hair with a #2 attachment. I haven't been to a barber since the early 80s.

The last haircut I paid for was to one of my mechanics, who cuts all his friends' hair for $2.00 each. I saved a braid. I think I have four now, not counting the one that's still attached.

677 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 5:27:07pm

re: #647 albusteve

darn...there doesn't seem to be a WS protest here in ABQ...so where is WS exactly?

[Link: www.dailylobo.com...]
[Link: www.kob.com...]

[Link: www.google.com...]
[Link: www.google.com...]

678 goddamnedfrank  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 5:27:46pm

re: #668 engineer dog

herman cain explains that by "unemployed people' - who he said should blame themselves and not wall st - he means the OWS demonstrators

add this to the conservative lexicon where we have already found out that 'submission' means 'respect'

On Lawrence's show on MSNBC Cain just said it wouldn't have been prudent for him to have engaged in the civil rights movement.

679 Kragar  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 5:28:07pm

re: #673 SanFranciscoZionist

Yeah, but they perceive EVERYTHING as a threat to RW ideals.

One thing to bear in mind is that the RWNJ crowd has a vested interest in promoting the demos and making them seem not only scary, but SIGNIFICANT.

The laughable band of disorganized highly trained and disciplined nazi hippies.

680 recusancy  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 5:28:29pm

re: #678 goddamnedfrank

On Lawrence's show on MSNBC Cain just said it wouldn't have been prudent for him to have engaged in the civil rights movement.

Wow.

681 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 5:28:48pm

re: #650 windsagio

there's absolutely zero chance of a marxist or anarchist organziation or even ethos to get any real power in the USA.

The left-liberal groups the white right loves to hate -- < a href="[Link: news.google.com...]>including the NAACP -- all had anti-commie purges in the 50s.

Someone should have informed the White Citzens Councils, KKK and other white conservatives crying integration=communism. lol

682 albusteve  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 5:28:58pm

re: #677 000G

[Link: www.dailylobo.com...]
[Link: www.kob.com...]

[Link: www.google.com...]
[Link: www.google.com...]

lol!

683 windsagio  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 5:28:58pm

re: #678 goddamnedfrank

posted the other day, but kind of relevant, and damn funny

(left off the end... Robert: "I wish you'd brought your raincoat!")

684 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 5:30:04pm

re: #674 recusancy

It's because it's "Livestream". Occupy SF didn't put the ad there. Livestream did.

I understand that part.

685 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 5:30:14pm

re: #662 freetoken

It's funny how the Communists didn't like elections, but the anti-Communists don't seem to like them that much, either.

686 windsagio  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 5:32:29pm

re: #681 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

a lot of things equalled communism back in those days.

Hell, in Iran free elections apparently=communism!

What bugs me is that the threat/claim of communism has been one of the biggest rhetorical tools to destroy freedom and democracy in the 20th century... and people still bring it out at the drop of a hat.

687 engineer cat  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 5:33:11pm

re: #678 goddamnedfrank

On Lawrence's show on MSNBC Cain just said it wouldn't have been prudent for him to have engaged in the civil rights movement.

dear mr cain,

the conservative movement has spent many millions of dollars crafting subtle and plausible denials, evasions, and outright lies

please get in contact with the koch bros, karl rove, or some other representative so that you can bring your evasions and other rhetorical dodges and misrepresentations up to an acceptable level

thank you

688 ProGunLiberal  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 5:34:37pm

Actually, an acquaintance of mine is organizing a protest in Norman tomorrow at the OU campus.

Again, I kinda support the concept, but I want them to be more organized, and more forward-thinking, and less knee-jerky.

689 windsagio  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 5:35:23pm

re: #688 ProLifeLiberal

to be honest I think its more important to get people out and establish a presence than to have some deeply organized agenda.

690 Obdicut  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 5:35:51pm

re: #686 windsagio

It's really not the drop of a hat. The protests really, really were organized by Adbusters, who really, really do make common cause with communists on many issues. This is nothing like the Birchers claiming Marxists were behind the Civil Rights Movement.

It's funny; I'm very anti-consumerist myself, but Adbusters just rubs me all sorts of wrong ways, from the very inception that began it all.

691 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 5:36:35pm

re: #668 engineer dog

herman cain explains that by "unemployed people' - who he said should blame themselves and not wall st - he means the OWS demonstrators

add this to the conservative lexicon where we have already found out that 'submission' means 'respect'

Would that be under the Bachmann Marriage Files?

Seriously, though, there are people at LGF who will fingerwag at you exactly that see comments #mid 200s.

All of BDSM is based on this concept. I don't know why social conservatives consider it to be sexual deviance, since it's based on their own social norms.

692 windsagio  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 5:37:47pm

re: #690 Obdicut

I get that, really, and I agree they're obnoxious, but I just don't think that the communism of some backers is in any way significant.

That aspect of it just doesn't matter.

And yet its a huge fixation (not necessarily with you Ob, but with a surprising number of people)

693 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 5:39:34pm

re: #685 000G

It's funny how the Communists didn't like elections, but the anti-Communists don't seem to like them that much, either.

Sergey Dovlatov's aphorism: "After communists, most of all I hate anti-communists".

694 ProGunLiberal  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 5:40:14pm

re: #689 windsagio

Maybe, but the goal should be to do Nordic-Style Reforms.

Because we know they work. At the very least, they are a starting point.

695 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 5:40:25pm

I'm watching their footage from yesterday.

696 Obdicut  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 5:41:00pm

re: #692 windsagio

If who organized the protests doesn't matter, then why does who organized the Tea Party protests, or who organized anything?

Do you think it never, ever matters who organized something?

697 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 5:41:29pm

re: #686 windsagio

What bugs me is that the threat/claim of communism has been one of the biggest rhetorical tools to destroy freedom and democracy in the 20th century... and people still bring it out at the drop of a hat.

It works among the confederates who believe "freedom" means "I get to do whatever the fuck I want to you, and not you or anyone else has a right to do about it."

Those are the ones who trot out the threat of communism whenever someone else asserts their own rights.

Basic states rights mentality.

698 austin_blue  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 5:41:29pm

re: #629 ProLifeLiberal

One of my friends here got Thyroid Cancer (Found out today. Been very busy here with school and stuff).

How terminal is it? Is the prognosis better than, say, Pancreatic? It was found recently.

Very treatable. Pancreatic is a death sentence.

699 windsagio  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 5:41:53pm

re: #696 Obdicut

TP organizers were very successful in setting and pursuing a specific agenda.

This is clearly not the case with the 'Occupy' crowd :p

Edit: And I didn't say who the backers was wasn't important, I said the backers purported communism wasn't important. Significant difference.

700 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 5:42:13pm

re: #693 Sergey Romanov

Sergey Dovlatov's aphorism: "After communists, most of all I hate anti-communists".

Sounds like a person to look up. Thanks, Sergey!

701 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 5:43:05pm

re: #691 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

All of BDSM is based on this concept. I don't know why social conservatives consider it to be sexual deviance, since it's based on their own social norms.

Probably because of the C in SSC.

702 ProGunLiberal  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 5:44:09pm

re: #698 austin_blue

Out of curiosity, how come Thyroid can be so easily treated as compared to Pancreatic?

I remember seeing something in Discover some years ago about how that someone with Autism may have a lesser chance of getting cancer. When I go back to COS, I'll have to find it.

703 windsagio  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 5:44:23pm

Fundie BDSM would be kinda... hot.

704 Wozza Matter?  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 5:44:31pm

Am back.

"Man Defeats PowerPoint presentation at start of 36 hour day".

They shall write songs of this day and assure my entry to Stovokor.

705 windsagio  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 5:45:11pm

re: #702 ProLifeLiberal

Thyroid reacts easily and quickly to things that won't kill you outright.

Also you can cut most or not all if it out and not die.

706 ProGunLiberal  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 5:46:02pm

re: #705 windsagio

Ok, that's a bit more understandable.

707 BishopX  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 5:49:00pm

re: #705 windsagio

One of my moms had her thyroid out 7? years ago. Not a big deal at all.

708 windsagio  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 5:50:05pm

re: #707 BishopX

yeah that's why I know about it too, my Mom used to spend her summers downstream from Hanford, and ran into some thyroid problems of her own a few decades back.

709 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 5:51:25pm

re: #703 windsagio

Fundie BDSM would be kinda... hot.

There is indeed a fetish for everything, no doubt.

710 austin_blue  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 5:52:42pm

re: #702 ProLifeLiberal

Out of curiosity, how come Thyroid can be so easily treated as compared to Pancreatic?

I remember seeing something in Discover some years ago about how that someone with Autism may have a lesser chance of getting cancer. When I go back to COS, I'll have to find it.

Thyroid = slow growing, not very metastatic. Also, you can live without your thyroid gland with chemical replacements (no fun, but doable).

Pancreatic = fast growing, highly metastatic, and invariably lethal.

711 CuriousLurker  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 5:55:07pm

re: #698 austin_blue

Very treatable. Pancreatic is a death sentence.

Life is a death sentence.

Ugh, getting pessimistic & morose now. Time to step away from the computer and seek attitude adjustment.

Later, lizards.

712 The Ghost of a Flea  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 5:56:23pm

re: #686 windsagio

a lot of things equalled communism back in those days.

Hell, in Iran free elections apparently=communism!

What bugs me is that the threat/claim of communism has been one of the biggest rhetorical tools to destroy freedom and democracy in the 20th century... and people still bring it out at the drop of a hat.

My favorite uncle was a member of the Marxist Party in India, right after Partition. We've talked a great deal about why he joined up, and honestly I was quite rough with him...my position colored by knowledge of the USSR, and the other "communist" nations. As I've got older I've come to realize that were I in his position--on the ground and with twenty years of awareness of the British bilking people and stamping out questioning of the system in place--I'd probably do the same thing.

Stratch that position about the "threat of communism" and typically you'll find a total lack of interest in the impact of colonialism and similar parasite-economies in the 19th and 20th century, or how the circulation of Marxism and its variants is a response to "capitalism" playing out not as Adam Smith's vision, but as a giant exploitation system. When people talk about communism destroying freedom and democracy...well, communism picked up and continued an existing tradition of squashing people's self-determination firmly in place--they just perfumed their self-serving actions with a different ideological system (...that was used very selectively, ignoring any components that might inhibit them).

713 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 5:56:54pm

re: #702 ProLifeLiberal

Out of curiosity, how come Thyroid can be so easily treated as compared to Pancreatic?

I can't say with any specifics but 1- like any cancer, it depends on when each is caught and 2- the function of each within the endocrine system.

If it gives any comfort, a very close friend of mine was diagnosed with thyroid cancer in 1990. She had had cancer as a child so this was her 2nd bout with it. She's now a prof in the UC system. So there is hope...it won't be easy for your friend. But it is very likely "it will get better."

714 Wozza Matter?  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 6:01:57pm

re: #712 The Ghost of a Flea

Pretty much.

My family were/all are Trots or Marxists.
Both sets of Grandparents grew up at a time of massive social deprevation and with an uncaring state system and no state provision of services.

The alternative to Marxism was Oswald Mosely and his black shirt fascist thugs.

I'm positively glad they are Marxists.

715 Obdicut  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 6:03:11pm

re: #699 windsagio

TP organizers were very successful in setting and pursuing a specific agenda.

This is clearly not the case with the 'Occupy' crowd :p

I don't actually think the Tea Party dudes had that specific an agenda, really. They followed, I'd say, whatever got presented to them by the right-wing media.

I think one difference is the remarkable consistency of the right-wing, the odd, nervous way it coalesces around whatever latest outrage or issue is. What I'm not clear on is whether the lack of that in the OWS stuff is due to a lower competency level among people like Adbusters in getting their message memed out, or whether those on the left are actually more resistant to such consensus and stuff. It'd be nice to think it was the latter.

I don't think Adbusters could be accurately described as Marxist, though. They make common cause with some Marxists. But they're more... abstract. I dunno.

716 Obdicut  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 6:04:25pm

re: #714 wozzablog

A lot of people forget how Marxism originated, and that in most of the places where Marxism was an inspiration, it was quickly moderated and adapted.

717 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 6:05:07pm

re: #711 CuriousLurker

Life is a death sentence.

Ugh, getting pessimistic & morose now. Time to step away from the computer and seek attitude adjustment.

Later, lizards.

How I got into this predicament, I'll never know. Absolutely incredible. To be executed for a crime I never committed. Of course, isn't all mankind in the same boat? Isn't all mankind ultimately executed for a crime it never committed?

The difference is that all men go eventually, but I go six o'clock tomorrow morning.

718 Decatur Deb  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 6:05:15pm

re: #615 Decatur Deb

During the 2008 campaign the president-to-be dropped a one-liner I have used since 1962: "It is the duty of the strong to help the weak. It is the duty of the weak to become strong". Don't know where I picked up such an idea but I was religious then, and reading a lot of commies.

Ha. Found a likely source--and it comes from the religious side, not the commies.

Sermons preached in the King's weigh-house chapel, London, 1829-1869
By Thomas Binney

[Link: books.google.com...]

719 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 6:09:08pm

re: #712 The Ghost of a Flea

I just don't trust any kind of commie-baiting coming from people in the US.

For one, there is plenty to despise about communist or state-capitalist systems like Stalinist Russia, People's Republic of China and Vietnam, or any other of the rwnj bugbears, all on their own. But they make all these computers all of us are typing on, as well as all the clothes we're wearing while doing the typing. They've also had most favored nation status from us for..how long?

For two, commie/pinko baiting against "leftys" is never on behalf of the "leftys" for their sake. Never.

720 Decatur Deb  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 6:11:37pm

re: #719 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

I just don't trust any kind of commie-baiting coming from people in the US.

For one, there is plenty to despise about communist or state-capitalist systems like Stalinist Russia, People's Republic of China and Vietnam, or any other of the rwnj bugbears, all on their own. But they make all these computers all of us are typing on, as well as all the clothes we're wearing while doing the typing. They've also had most favored nation status from us for..how long?

For two, commie/pinko baiting against "leftys" is never on behalf of the "leftys" for their sake. Never.

Walmart is (or was) the most important trading partner of the largest surviving Communist government.

721 Wozza Matter?  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 6:12:21pm

re: #719 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

I just don't trust any kind of commie-baiting coming from people in the US.

For one, there is plenty to despise about communist or state-capitalist systems like Stalinist Russia, People's Republic of China and Vietnam, or any other of the rwnj bugbears, all on their own. But they make all these computers all of us are typing on, as well as all the clothes we're wearing while doing the typing. They've also had most favored nation status from us for..how long?

For two, commie/pinko baiting against "leftys" is never on behalf of the "leftys" for their sake. Never.

The best economies in the world are run on a basis to the left of the American one.

Scandinavia and Australia both doing better. UK is doing better in terms of unemployment and just anounced more central bank stimulus.

722 windsagio  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 6:12:37pm

re: #715 Obdicut

I don't actually think the Tea Party dudes had that specific an agenda, really. They followed, I'd say, whatever got presented to them by the right-wing media.

I think one difference is the remarkable consistency of the right-wing, the odd, nervous way it coalesces around whatever latest outrage or issue is. What I'm not clear on is whether the lack of that in the OWS stuff is due to a lower competency level among people like Adbusters in getting their message memed out, or whether those on the left are actually more resistant to such consensus and stuff. It'd be nice to think it was the latter.

I don't think Adbusters could be accurately described as Marxist, though. They make common cause with some Marxists. But they're more... abstract. I dunno.

Well the theme I get out of the TP is 'no taxes, no social programs, states rights!' which is both open-ended, but also strongly on point. It also serves a particular part of the populace VERY VERY WELL, and that group coincides with the TP backers pretty well.

I get what you're saying tho'... maybe the issue is that conservatives are so used to being narrowcast and focusing on these issues that they didn't need that much control/direction. I think the difference with OWS is that there's not this long history of closely focused discipline and media presentation, the American left is notoriously unorganized.


~~~

In another way you're totally right on, the backers of the TP are just as much a side-issue as the clowns in hats and wigs. Its easy for me (and probably everybody) to get all worked up about astroturfing, but that's not really the point.

The important thing is the negative things the organization promotes and does, not who is behind it.

Of course I just now came to this realization, heh.

In comparison the point (such as it is) of the Occupy movement I think is essentially positive and that's what's important.

723 The Ghost of a Flea  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 6:15:39pm

re: #715 Obdicut

I don't actually think the Tea Party dudes had that specific an agenda, really. They followed, I'd say, whatever got presented to them by the right-wing media.

I think one difference is the remarkable consistency of the right-wing, the odd, nervous way it coalesces around whatever latest outrage or issue is. What I'm not clear on is whether the lack of that in the OWS stuff is due to a lower competency level among people like Adbusters in getting their message memed out, or whether those on the left are actually more resistant to such consensus and stuff. It'd be nice to think it was the latter.

I don't think Adbusters could be accurately described as Marxist, though. They make common cause with some Marxists. But they're more... abstract. I dunno.

What freaked/freaks me out about the Tea Party is the way the message is constructed, directed, and marketed by moneyed individuals and interests groups--the people who created the message are speaking out of conviction, but are casting self-beneficial policy as rooted in principle. Getting individuals Tea Partiers to pick up talking points was a matter of marketing to their niche. The funny thing is that was stage one...as the people who "bought" the marketed product were them used as endorsements to create a larger marketing campaign.

It's like a kayfabe fight being used to start a real one.

I don't like Adbusters or ANSWER (the former are just noxious; the latter broke their plate by being stupid enough to back Hamas and Hezbollah), but I don't get the impression that they're marketing OWS in a similar cynical fashion. Their message sucks, but they're being honest about what their message is and to what end they pursue it. The other thing is that the crowd is not being handled and managed in a similar fashion to Tea Partiers so that everyone stays on-message.

724 Wozza Matter?  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 6:17:20pm

re: #722 windsagio

Corporate person hood, 0% corporate taxes, abolishing/auditing the fed, shrink govt to the size of a postage stamp - these are the polar opposite views of the 99%/OWS protest and yet it's THOSE views that are mainstream *boggles*

725 Obdicut  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 6:17:45pm

re: #723 The Ghost of a Flea

I love the word kayfabe.

726 windsagio  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 6:19:22pm

re: #721 wozzablog

The place I always point to is Germany.

European socialist state that, well lets see...
*had their economy totally annihilated 70 years ago
*Absorbed a failed state/economy
*had all their neighbors dedicated to them not becoming an economic power...

And still ended up one of the best economies in the world, to the point that they basically run the Euro, which was partially developed to keep their economy in check.

BTW, they're totally socialists.

727 The Ghost of a Flea  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 6:20:04pm

re: #723 The Ghost of a Flea

--the people who created the message might or might not be speaking out of conviction, but they are casting self-beneficial policy as rooted in principle.

Important change in 1st paragraph. More accurate, since their seem to be both true believers in supply-side, Von Mises, et cetera but also those who appropriate the ideas cynically. Given that either way they're demanding that people grasp the shitty end of a stick, it takes awhile to figure who is which.

728 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 6:24:08pm

re: #714 wozzablog

Pretty much.

My family were/all are Trots or Marxists.
Both sets of Grandparents grew up at a time of massive social deprevation and with an uncaring state system and no state provision of services.

The alternative to Marxism was Oswald Mosely and his black shirt fascist thugs.

I'm positively glad they are Marxists.

In the US this whole marxism/fascism MBF bit is just stupid.

There isn't one "marxist" law that has been implemented in this country. Here, they out-fascisted the fascists before fascism was even a term, with their anti-miscegenation laws, you must go to inferior schools laws, anti-alien land laws, back of the bus laws, eugenics boards, reservation systems, quotas against Jews in hiring, admissions and home ownership/rentals, quotas against immigrants for the same, the list goes on and on and on.

Not to mention the state-sponsored, tax paid violence to back up all of the above.

Speaking about it in a way that's anything other than complimentary or validating? Congratulations, you're a marxist. e_e_

729 windsagio  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 6:25:54pm

re: #728 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

J. Edgar Hoover must have a file on you three inches thick, just for having said that :p

730 prairiefire  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 6:28:39pm

re: #706 ProLifeLiberal

Ok, that's a bit more understandable.

The pancreas is irreplaceable, and essential to how the internal plumbing works. At the end, everything has to be addressed by an attached outer bag, for bile, a catheter. The bowls do not function at all, death comes pretty quickly

731 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 6:28:41pm

re: #729 windsagio

J. Edgar Hoover must have a file on you three inches thick, just for having said that :p

Pfft, me and J. Edgar Hoover have probably showed up at the same bars. lol

732 Wozza Matter?  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 6:29:22pm

re: #728 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

In the US this whole marxism/fascism MBF bit is just stupid.

There isn't one "marxist" law that has been implemented in this country. Here, they out-fascisted the fascists before fascism was even a term, with their anti-miscegenation laws, you must go to inferior schools laws, anti-alien land laws, back of the bus laws, eugenics boards, reservation systems, quotas against Jews in hiring, admissions and home ownership/rentals, quotas against immigrants for the same, the list goes on and on and on.

Not to mention the state-sponsored, tax paid violence to back up all of the above.

Speaking about it in a way that's anything other than complimentary or validating? Congratulations, you're a marxist. e_e_

Marxists and leftists know fellow travllers, and the american "left" are not fellow travellers. Centre right at best.

Enforced segregation was vital to maintain the social order & economic - once dirt poor blacks and dirt poor whites started meeting in the late 1800's to 1920's they realised they had more in common with each other than the white people did with richer white people.

There was a brief flirtation with a true "Left" in the states but it was brutally put down by the Boss class.

733 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 6:37:55pm

re: #732 wozzablog

Marxists and leftists know fellow travllers, and the american "left" are not fellow travellers. Centre right at best.

Enforced segregation was vital to maintain the social order - once dirt poor blacks and dirt poor whites started meeting in the late 1800's to 1920's they realised they had more in common with each other than the white people did with richer white people.

There was a brief flirtation with a true "Left" in the states but it was brutally put down by the Boss class.

There is a lot of overlap, but one of the other reasons the far left has never taken hold is its clining to class as the basis of oppression and trying to add on race/color/ethnicity as an appendix. It makes their analysis incomplete.

The flipside of that is the rwnj antipathy towards the idea of equality, since they think only they are supposed to be treated as the equals by the government; all others are to be dhimmis or second-classers.

If you've known any labor organizers in the south (I did in the mid 90s) they will tell you the same thing as labor organizers from the 30s - nobody will vote for a union because the bosses will tell them that means Blacks will be the bosses.

(Cut to confederate rage against civil rights in the 50s-70s, and then the Obama presidency, 2000s). That's a sad bunch.

734 Wozza Matter?  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 6:42:34pm

re: #733 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

My sister did her dissertation on the Union movement and a couple of other elements of Deep South history.

Lesson one from all of history - the boss class will try to keep people divided.
They will try to use Race, Religion, Caste, politics - anything but economic circumstance.

735 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 6:44:34pm

re: #733 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

If you've known any labor organizers in the south (I did in the mid 90s) they will tell you the same thing as labor organizers from the 30s - nobody will vote for a union because the bosses will tell them that means Blacks will be the bosses.

Some history on this:

Alabama Sharecroppers Union

Southern Tenant Farmers Union

JR Butler

White conservative confederates HATE this. /Schadenfreude

736 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 6:48:41pm

re: #734 wozzablog

My sister did her dissertation on the Union movement and a couple of other elements of Deep South history.

Lesson one from all of history - the boss class will try to keep people divided.
They will try to use Race, Religion, Caste, politics - anything but economic circumstance.

And yet, they get violent over all of it.

We were talking earlier in the thread about the prospect of violence in the coming few years. It's always possible. But here, rwnj get violent over economic issues and even more violent over racial ones.

In my mind, the two are inseparable. Violent, gun clutching white con bigots get far more violent when they are being told some black person is coming for their stuff.

Otoh, look at the tea party - when class hustlers like Dick Armey and the Koch Brothers come for their stuff, they bend over and pass back the lube.

737 Wozza Matter?  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 6:52:26pm

re: #736 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

True dat.

They can't get enough Koch.

738 Gepetto  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 7:03:20pm

re: #547 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

I missed that part. Who has done that? Where is "here"?

"here" is the pacific northwest. a good segment of the OWS trotted over and had a vigil at the apple store. it was surreal.

739 Gepetto  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 7:08:51pm

re: #540 000G

I dunno. Seems to be hyperbole, originally pushed by InfoWars/DrudgeReport convergence:

Image: drudgeinforwarsows.jpg

well, since the actual newspaper source wasn't good enough to pass your muster, here is a huffpo piece. the professional left is co-opting this movement in plain sight now, and it is unfortunate as their entanglement with money and power detracts from the OWS significantly.

[Link: www.huffingtonpost.com...]

740 b_sharp  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 7:11:57pm

re: #656 wrenchwench

Pony tail is the only way to go.

Actually, mine is braided today.

When I need a ponytail, I just paint one on.

741 BishopX  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 7:34:03pm

re: #739 Gepetto

My sources within the AFL-CIO tell me that they officially decided not to co-opt the OWS movement (largely because the protesters don't have a microphone for Trumka to speak at). They will offer support in terms of use of office space, logistical help and donations, but they don't want to own the show.

742 windsagio  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 7:35:58pm

re: #741 BishopX

Nice of them to decide not to co-opt osmething they probably couldn't co-opt :p

743 BishopX  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 7:46:59pm

re: #742 windsagio

Meh, is they put 4,000 boots on the street in Zuccotti Park day, day out for a month they would own it pretty effectively.

744 MittDoesNotCompute  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 7:47:20pm

re: #711 CuriousLurker

Life is a death sentence.

Ugh, getting pessimistic & morose now. Time to step away from the computer and seek attitude adjustment.

Later, lizards.

No one here gets out alive

/Jim Morrison

745 NVAudiophile  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 8:27:37pm

re: #226 Obdicut

I feel like we missed a big window, back when outsourcing started getting really big. A window that would have allowed us either to use our economic power to force better working conditions in China, or to keep manufacturing jobs-- actual jobs, not just automation-- here at home. It's going to be very hard to claw it back now. I think whoever said that a lot depends on workers in China getting organized and demanding better conditions is right. And even now China is building factories in Africa; they're looking to outsource too.

The company I work for used to outsource software and electrical engineering to India. As workers in India have begun asking for higher wages in recent years, we have been moving all outsourcing to China, where we can get the equivalent of someone with an advanced degree for 7.00 per hour. When and if people in China demand better wages and conditions, outsourcing will move again. I recall a conversation with an executive who predicted the next outsourcing opportunity will be in South America, because people there "are willing to work for food."

If it isn't clear, this new social compact that we find ourselves in, thanks to outsourcing, disgusts me.

Government sets the parameters within which business operates. Absent regulation, untreated pollution fouled the air and water, children labored alongside adults in dangerous conditions. There was, after all, a time when slavery was legal and business sought to drive labor costs to zero.

I liken the present situation to the return of a slave-based economy, with the corresponding erosion of the middle class. With three children in high school, I really worry whether their opportunities in life will be as good as mine.

746 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 9:42:48pm

re: #278 Killgore Trout

People with iphones, laptops and enough free time to live in a park for three weeks? People occupying wall street are not poor. I can guarantee you I make less money than almost all of them. Once again, don;t tell me what I know or how much I'm hurting. I won;t respond to anymore strawmen.

okay

so, I have peniless/unemployed friends wiith laptops, and they are nerds. Therefore, they know other nerds...

who give them old laptops for free. Or they just get clever with keeping their old gear running. I've repaired my own laptops for years, because I was too broke to buy new ones. I currently have four dead laptops stacked in my garage. Two are technically functional if you were to scavenge a hard drive and get linux running on them, two are old inspirons with unknown issues, that could probably be consolidated into one functional machine.


So there goes that strawman!

as for free time... broke and unemployed = lots of free time. Dude in Portland I know who was a mechanic, unemployed for a year, supported himself by doing pick-up mechanic work for friends.

BUT OMG HE OWNED A COMPUTER (that he assembled from scavenged and gifted parts) SO I GUESS HE'S RICH YO

747 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 9:50:19pm

re: #235 SanFranciscoZionist

Reaction, after some thought: eye roll.

Jaysus, Bird, you're my age, you've read this sort of thing before.

In case you weren't aware, intentional communities of misfits is actually literally how I make a living

So you can eye roll all you want, but my rent is paid

748 lostlakehiker  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 11:00:51pm

re: #502 Obdicut

No, you didn't. You referenced a wikipedia page about an entire area of mathematics. Do you not know what 'show your math' means?

Look at it this way: what if there were 10,000 people total going to the polls in your state, including you? What are the chances of you being the 'deciding' vote then?

I answered this very question already. But here goes again.

The "real" answer is insanely complicated. But a model can be analyzed. In the model, the question is, what are the odds that the election will be so close that a single voter switching sides can flip the election?

In the model, the voters are flipping coins to decide who they'll vote for. They go into the booth, flip, and vote. The odds that after all 10 thousand votes have been cast, it's a tie, are 0.0079786461393821537604, or (like I wrote earlier) a little less than 1 percent. The formula is C[10000,5000]/2^10000. Binomial coefficient.

The reason for this formula is that in general, if you have n voters, there are C[n,m] different bit strings with exactly m votes for a particular candidate, out of the two on offer. All bit strings are by premise equally likely since everybody's flipping a coin in the model, so the set of strings that yield a tie, C[10K,5K] of them, has a probability of C[10K,5K]/2^(10K) of occurring.

The quick and dirty answer, recall, was 1 percent on the dot.


A practical related question might be, what good will it do to spend on campaign commercials in a state where the election is known to be close and many voters have not made up their minds? And would you do better to spend in a big state, or a small state. (Assume the cost of getting your message to an individual voter is the same either way.)

You'd have to spend ten times as much money on CA as on WV, to reach everybody. Your chance of flipping the election would drop by a factor of 1 in 3 or 4, because CA has ten times as many people, roughly. But the payoff, if you do flip it, is ten times as big. So dollar for dollar, a campaign commercial that must be paid for viewer by viewer pays best in a big swing state. Courting voters in big swing states is the smart move. In that sense, voters in such states have more voting power.

It's somewhat realistic to think of voters as not having made up their minds, because voters may know who they prefer, but whether they actually go and vote is often pretty much a matter of chance. And there are a good many voters who say they're undecided, right down to the wire. Elections really do partake of probability.

749 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 11:59:43pm

re: #726 windsagio

Socialist? Germany? Not really.

Also, "the economy" here sucks, too. Just not as hard as elsewhere.

750 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 12:07:46am

re: #739 Gepetto

I'm aware of the facts. However, I think you don't know what it means.

"the movement will soon be owned lock stock and barrel by the professional left. Once again, the 99% will be left holding the bag as an organic protest movement is co-opted by professional politics."

I don't know what this is supposed to mean. Is "professional" supposed to mean that the "hijackers" are paid? Or does it just mean that they have experience? OWS was started by organizations who have already been around for a while. I have no idea what the fixation on "organic" is supposed to mean, either. OWS cannot formulate feasable policy ideas and have politicians actually listen without it becoming inauthentic all of a sudden? You throwing in a little Soros-baiting sort of sealed the deal for me where you were coming from with your critique.

751 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 12:28:30am

re: #739 Gepetto

Case in point: Mark Levin channeling your sentiment:

752 Obdicut  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 2:30:17am

re: #748 lostlakehiker

I answered this very question already. But here goes again.

Heh. No, dude.

If you're casting the 10,000th vote, you can't be breaking a tie. You can't be casting a deciding vote. You can be if you're casting the 10,001th vote.

Do you seriously not get that? If you're casting the 10,000th vote, you cannot be breaking a tie. The vote may be at 5000 for one guy, 4,999 for the other-- that's as close as can be. Your vote can at best tie it. It can not be the 'deciding' vote.

I'm pointing out that the concept of a 'deciding' vote is a fallacious one.

753 Obdicut  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 3:04:45am

re: #748 lostlakehiker

I just ran the 14,000,000 scenario (which is the one I was asking about) through a binomial calculation, and got a P of 0.000426471233367975. So you were absolutely correct that the probability of a tie at that level being much higher than one would think, and I was absolutely wrong to say you were off by a factor of 1,000.

However, you're using the non-mathematical concept of 'deciding vote', as demonstrated in my above post, and that's the problem.

754 Gepetto  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 7:50:25am

re: #750 000G

I'm aware of the facts. However, I think you don't know what it means.

I don't know what this is supposed to mean. Is "professional" supposed to mean that the "hijackers" are paid? Or does it just mean that they have experience? OWS was started by organizations who have already been around for a while. I have no idea what the fixation on "organic" is supposed to mean, either. OWS cannot formulate feasable policy ideas and have politicians actually listen without it becoming inauthentic all of a sudden? You throwing in a little Soros-baiting sort of sealed the deal for me where you were coming from with your critique.

fair enough. there's a difference between getting something started and feeding it. there's a difference between planting a shrub and bonsai-ing it to take exactly the form you want. the tea party is not what it could have been because of the co-opting from established politicians, glenn beck, the koch brothers and hundreds of shadowy interests that saw an opportunity to make a nascent movement into their own automaton. I believe things really need to change in fundamental ways, and I believe seedlings like the occupy movement are the way they will change. But if the movements embrace the influx of wads of money and entrenched professional leaders, they become the zombie armies for the two existing political parties. Then the 99% stays firmly in the same place it has been--no real change and weakly cheering when one side or another throws us a gnawed up bone.

755 lostlakehiker  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 1:52:38pm

re: #752 Obdicut

Heh. No, dude.

If you're casting the 10,000th vote, you can't be breaking a tie. You can't be casting a deciding vote. You can be if you're casting the 10,001th vote.

Do you seriously not get that? If you're casting the 10,000th vote, you cannot be breaking a tie. The vote may be at 5000 for one guy, 4,999 for the other-- that's as close as can be. Your vote can at best tie it. It can not be the 'deciding' vote.

I'm pointing out that the concept of a 'deciding' vote is a fallacious one.

You have had every last question answered, carefully. You insist, at every turn, on misinterpreting the answer. The question has always been, and remains, this: What are the odds that when 10001 voters vote, the election is 5001 to 5000? EQUIVALENTLY, what are the odds that when the LAST VOTER, whoever it is, steps up to the booth, the votes already cast have split 5000 to 5000?

What can POSSIBLY be difficult about this? And why do you slide away from the question. Why, when you ask for the math, and are given it, do you shift the question? Perhaps because you hoped that I'd be unable to give it and you could crow. Perhaps because you actually wished to understand, though my hope that this would be the case is fading.

The question of voting power, to be given any exact meaning, has to be recast in terms of some such language. Of course, when 10001 people vote, every one of them, from start to finish, is equally important. NO ONE misunderstands this utterly obvious point.

Look at it this way. Suppose you can bribe just one voter. That voter will take the bribe and stay bribed. It's a close election. Could go either way, in any number of states. You don't know how many states you're going to carry, or which ones. They're all close.

WHO DO YOU BRIBE?

The technically correct answer is, you bribe the CA voter. Your chances that the bribe will flip the state are less, by a factor of 3, than they would have been had you bribed a WV voter. But the electoral college payoff from having the bribe work in CA is TEN TIMES the payoff from having it work in WV.

And why less by a factor of 3? (Or, more exactly, sqrt{10}?) That goes back to the question of why is it that the odds of the election being an exact tie, just before the last vote is cast, drop proportional to the square root of the number of voters in the state. And that goes back, as explained, to Stirling's approximation.

Now in reality, nobody bribes just one voter. But everybody makes campaign promises. They craft them carefully, with an eye to how cheaply the voters can be swayed, how much the state matters, and how likely a persuasive pitch is to sway enough voters to flip the result. But the logic is not all that different. Large, swing, states, are the battleground.

756 Obdicut  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 8:09:20pm

re: #755 lostlakehiker

this: What are the odds that when 10001 voters vote, the election is 5001 to 5000? EQUIVALENTLY, what are the odds that when the LAST VOTER, whoever it is, steps up to the booth, the votes already cast have split 5000 to 5000?

Why on earth do you think that's a question that matters a lot?

Did you really not get the point of the whole 10,000 vs 10,001 votes thing?

The 'deciding vote' thing is a fallacy.

Yes. You bribe the CA voter in a tight rice. Or spend more resources. So what? What does that have to do with what I was saying?

You seem to somehow be offering this extremely limited 1/4000th chance of tipping an election, assuming it all breaks 50/50 AND assuming an odd number of total votes, as somehow equivalent or palliative to the over-representation of the small states in the senate, which is a dead certainty, every time. There is never a time where a senator from Wyoming is not representation fewer people, by an order of magnitude.


So, one single voter can be treated as having a 1/4000 chance to be the 'deciding vote'-- that they vote in an election that winds up in a tie.

That means if he started voting at 18 and dropped dead at 78, he'd have a 1/160 chance of running into a perfect tie in his state in his lifetime of voting in presidential elections, if he voted in every single one.

So what? I mean, never mind the fact that if one guy's vote is the deciding vote, another guy's vote can't be, because you have to know what every other vote is in the case of a tie in order to crown one guy's vote the deciding vote. They can't all be simultaneously the deciding vote, otherwise, if two of them both switch their 'deciding vote', you get bupkus.

It's interesting that the odds of a single person affecting a tie are higher than you might naively think. They are still intensely small, and they still have nothing to do with the fact that the senators for the smaller states represent far fewer people than those from the larger ones.

757 Obdicut  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 8:25:01pm

re: #756 Obdicut

And by 'you might naively think', I definitely don't mean you. I was naive, I thought the chance would be much lower.

It is still a very remote chance.

758 Obdicut  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 4:37:57am

Heh. Or, to put it another way, since there is a 1/4000 chance of a Californian's vote tipping California's electoral votes, and we have a vote for president every year, this scenario will occur every 1000 years.

I think the main problem with how you've phrased it is you're talking about the 1/4000 chance as though it's the chance for an individual to sway the election, but it's not; it's the chance for all those votes to break 50/50. So its' interesting, mathematically, but what relevance does it have to reality? One time in a millennium, the scenario will occur.

Whereas every single time the senate votes on something, the vote of the Senator from Wyoming holds equal power to the vote of the Senator from California, despite the Senator from California representing vastly more people.

759 Obdicut  Tue, Oct 11, 2011 4:11:20am

re: #758 Obdicut

If we have a vote every four years, that is.


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