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1 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 5:28:17pm

The sane part of Minnesota apologizes for producing this utter loon.

2 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 5:28:18pm

I do believe her when she says she won't compromise.

I also doubt she had absolutely nothing. That would mean they had, like, the clothes on their backs. I would bet they had a house, etc., and probably some funding for her business.

3 Randall Gross  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 5:29:07pm

"how decimating?" ...

Maybe Ed Morrisey and Rush Limbaugh can count the number of times she says "I" during this speech for us.

4 laZardo  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 5:30:07pm

re: #1 thedopefishlives

The sane part of Minnesota apologizes for producing this utter loon.

Don't forget Governor Ventura.

5 Charles Johnson  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 5:30:12pm

Apparently she's going way over her allotted time. Heh.

6 Simply Sarah  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 5:31:03pm

I apologize, but I hope you all can understand if I might rather not spend my Friday evening listening to Rep. Bachmann. I think I'll just listen to the play by play. Hopefully, the colour guy is good.

7 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 5:32:20pm

re: #4 laZardo

Don't forget Governor Ventura.

Believe me, we don't.

8 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 5:32:23pm

Madam, I have studied John Adams. You are no John Adams.

To begin with, he was a genius.

9 jaunte  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 5:32:26pm

"It's a Magnificent Constitution" ('cept for that dictatorial judicial branch).

10 Achilles Tang  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 5:33:59pm

Do I have to watch?

11 jaunte  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 5:34:24pm

Authentic non-settler gibberish.

12 Charles Johnson  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 5:34:30pm

She's going to bow out of the race very soon. Now she'll have to figure out why God told her to run. I'm sure she'll come up with a rationalization.

13 Randall Gross  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 5:34:37pm

Reagan! Drink!

14 reine.de.tout  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 5:35:11pm

re: #12 Charles

She's going to bow out of the race very soon. Now she'll have to figure out why God told her to run. I'm sure she'll come up with a rationalization.

To prove that Mars exists?

15 Simply Sarah  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 5:35:15pm

re: #12 Charles

She's going to bow out of the race very soon. Now she'll have to figure out why God told her to run. I'm sure she'll come up with a rationalization.

It's a trial. Like Job!

16 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 5:35:38pm

She is absolutely right in this: We should choose wisely when voting for an American president.

On this we can agree.

17 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 5:35:42pm

re: #15 Simply Sarah

It's a trial. Like Job!

Took the words right out of my mouth, you did.

18 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 5:36:07pm

re: #12 Charles

She's going to bow out of the race very soon. Now she'll have to figure out why God told her to run. I'm sure she'll come up with a rationalization.

So that her message would get out.

Not sure what the message was.

19 Charles Johnson  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 5:36:21pm

And now, president of Media Research Center, Brent Bozo. Oops, I mean Bozell.

20 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 5:37:10pm

re: #18 EmmmieG

So that her message would get out.

Not sure what the message was.

Blah blah blah theocracy blah blah tax cuts mumble obfuscate.

21 jaunte  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 5:37:35pm

"For the record, where in the Constitution is the Federal government granted the right to fly to the moon?"

22 HappyWarrior  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 5:38:34pm

re: #19 Charles

And now, president of Media Research Center, Brent Bozo. Oops, I mean Bozell.

Heh the guy who thinks government and not parents should be monitoring what kids watch on TV. What a hoot these people are.

23 Charles Johnson  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 5:39:47pm

The circus music as they introduced Ken Cuccinelli was quite appropriate.

24 HappyWarrior  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 5:40:52pm

Ken Cuccinelli: When you thought George Allen was a nut, they didn't tell you about this guy.

25 webevintage  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 5:42:10pm

There was quite an interesting discussion on Lawrence O'Donnell about the civil rights movement and Herman Cain.
I think the most important point made was by Sharpton who pointed out that the issue is how Cain is more then willing to claim how he has gotten his American dream, but refuses to credit (and even says those who were involved and became Dems are brainwashed) the movement that has allowed him to live and claim and work for his success in this country.

26 jaunte  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 5:42:39pm

Give us less EPA clean air, and more free market sulfur dioxide, just as the Founding Fathers intended.

27 jaunte  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 5:44:43pm

In the Feb. 8 edition of his newsletter, Attorney General Ken Cuccinelli, a Fairfax County resident, wrote he was looking "out the window at 30+ inches of global snowing."

28 HappyWarrior  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 5:46:47pm

re: #27 jaunte

In the Feb. 8 edition of his newsletter, Attorney General Ken Cuccinelli, a Fairfax County resident, wrote he was looking "out the window at 30+ inches of global snowing."

Sigh my university's most famous alumnus is such a dumbass. You don't need to be a scientist to see how absurdly stupid that statement is.

29 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 5:49:07pm

re: #25 webevintage

There was quite an interesting discussion on Lawrence O'Donnell about the civil rights movement and Herman Cain.
I think the most important point made was by Sharpton who pointed out that the issue is how Cain is more then willing to claim how he has gotten his American dream, but refuses to credit (and even says those who were involved and became Dems are brainwashed) the movement that has allowed him to live and claim and work for his success in this country.

Did they discuss what other candidates thought of the Civil Rights Movement?

This is what I can't stand about this showbiz b.s. And also that Herman Cain allows himself to be used as a racial steam valve for the white-is-right right.

30 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 5:50:00pm

re: #27 jaunte

In the Feb. 8 edition of his newsletter, Attorney General Ken Cuccinelli, a Fairfax County resident, wrote he was looking "out the window at 30+ inches of global snowing."

Sounds just as bad as those cranks at whatreallyhappened.

Rwnj, feh.

31 Charles Johnson  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 5:50:49pm

The Values Voter Summit has chosen classical marches (read: circus music) for their bumper music. Copyright-free and culture war approved.

32 Eclectic Infidel  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 5:50:58pm

So where's the liberty when someone loses their assets, retirement, or house when they can't pay their hospital bill?

Fuck the conservatives.

33 b_sharp  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 5:51:38pm

re: #27 jaunte

In the Feb. 8 edition of his newsletter, Attorney General Ken Cuccinelli, a Fairfax County resident, wrote he was looking "out the window at 30+ inches of global snowing."

He meant snow globe not global.

34 Stanghazi  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 5:52:46pm

re: #25 webevintage

There was quite an interesting discussion on Lawrence O'Donnell about the civil rights movement and Herman Cain.
I think the most important point made was by Sharpton who pointed out that the issue is how Cain is more then willing to claim how he has gotten his American dream, but refuses to credit (and even says those who were involved and became Dems are brainwashed) the movement that has allowed him to live and claim and work for his success in this country.

Yeah, his separate bathroom wouldn't have affected his rise to the top in ANY WAY. No siree.

35 b_sharp  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 5:53:24pm

re: #28 HappyWarrior

Sigh my university's most famous alumnus is such a dumbass. You don't need to be a scientist to see how absurdly stupid that statement is.

Don't you realize that Fairfax is the universal indicator of global climate? It even represents the climate on Europa and on Uranus.

36 Political Atheist  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 5:53:25pm

Well after absorbing the above, news of the Justice Departments recent moves to shut down marijuana dispensaries, a recent letter saying people who smoke may not have guns, I made a change in my profile.

I'm beyond being independent as a voter. I now think of myself as a political party atheist. There is no just, effective, honest party in our 2 party system.

Individual candidates will be voted for as I choose, I'm not opting out of voting. Just raw partisanship, which I have come to believe is a considerable part of the problem.

37 jaunte  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 5:54:24pm

Cimategate! Drink!

38 HappyWarrior  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 5:54:26pm

re: #35 b_sharp

Don't you realize that Fairfax is the universal indicator of global climate? It even represents the climate on Europa and on Uranus.

Heh I'm in Fairfax right now funnily enough.

39 b_sharp  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 5:54:36pm

re: #32 eclectic infidel

So where's the liberty when someone loses their assets, retirement, or house when they can't pay their hospital bill?

Fuck the conservatives.

If they can't afford bread, then let them eat cake, dammit.

40 Eclectic Infidel  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 5:55:19pm

re: #39 b_sharp

If they can't afford bread, then let them eat cake, dammit.

Because that's what Jesus would suggest!!

41 Kragar  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 5:55:24pm

re: #39 b_sharp

If they can't afford bread, then let them eat cake, dammit.

If you can't afford bread, then you don't love Jesus enough, you dirty pagan.

42 b_sharp  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 5:55:49pm

re: #36 Rightwingconspirator

Well after absorbing the above, news of the Justice Departments recent moves to shut down marijuana dispensaries, a recent letter saying people who smoke may not have guns, I made a change in my profile.

I'm beyond being independent as a voter. I now think of myself as a political party atheist. There is no just, effective, honest party in our 2 party system.

Individual candidates will be voted for as I choose, I'm not opting out of voting. Just raw partisanship, which I have come to believe has become a considerable part of the problem.

Welcome to the club bar.

43 HappyWarrior  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 5:56:20pm

re: #32 eclectic infidel

So where's the liberty when someone loses their assets, retirement, or house when they can't pay their hospital bill?

Fuck the conservatives.

That's party of liberty *Ron Paul shrinking annoying voice.

44 b_sharp  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 5:56:28pm

re: #38 HappyWarrior

Heh I'm in Fairfax right now funnily enough.

Cool. So what is my weather going to be like tomorrow?

45 Political Atheist  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 5:57:13pm

re: #42 b_sharp

Welcome to the club bar.

Thanks. I'll have a draft Pale Ale, with a shot of sky. And drinks for all my friends in attendance.

46 HappyWarrior  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 5:57:16pm

re: #44 b_sharp

Cool. So what is my weather going to be like tomorrow?

Sunny skies, beautiful early fall weather. Good bar hopping weather.

47 b_sharp  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 5:57:26pm

re: #41 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

If you can't afford bread, then you don't love Jesus enough, you dirty pagan.

I can't afford soap and water so I can't wash his feet.

48 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 5:58:49pm

re: #31 Charles

The Values Voter Summit has chosen classical marches (read: circus music) for their bumper music. Copyright-free and culture war approved.

Send in the clowns?

49 b_sharp  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 5:59:00pm

re: #45 Rightwingconspirator

Thanks. I'll have a draft Pale Ale, with a shot of sky. And drinks for all my friends in attendance.

Do you want that in separate glasses or in the keg?

50 goddamnedfrank  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 5:59:08pm

re: #29 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

Did they discuss what other candidates thought of the Civil Rights Movement?

This is what I can't stand about this showbiz b.s. And also that Herman Cain allows himself to be used as a racial steam valve for the white-is-right right.

They absolutely should ask the other candidates, but to be fair Cain has opened himself up uniquely to this line of questioning by writing about it in his book. It's a little difficult for him to claim the question arrises solely because of his race when he's answering it from a Barnes & Noble book signing event.

51 Killgore Trout  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 6:00:01pm

re: #36 Rightwingconspirator

Well after absorbing the above, news of the Justice Departments recent moves to shut down marijuana dispensaries, a recent letter saying people who smoke may not have guns, I made a change in my profile.

I'm beyond being independent as a voter. I now think of myself as a political party atheist. There is no just, effective, honest party in our 2 party system.

Individual candidates will be voted for as I choose, I'm not opting out of voting. Just raw partisanship, which I have come to believe has become a considerable part of the problem.

I've been following the weed situation a bit lately and it's a clusterfuck. As usual it comes down to money. There's no (legal) way to claim income tax from selling weed so the Feds are obligated to shut down dispensaries. The archaic "war on drugs" laws means legal growers can't own guns. I have slim hope Obama may deal with this if he gets a second term but that whole scenario is looking pretty unlikely.

52 Political Atheist  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 6:00:33pm

re: #49 b_sharp

Do you want that in separate glasses or in the keg?

*Looks around room*
The keg.

53 b_sharp  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 6:03:31pm

re: #52 Rightwingconspirator

*Looks around room*
The keg.

Excellent choice sir. May I also recommend the beer nuts and breadsticks? I would stay away from the chicken however, the chef is still chasing them down.

54 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 6:04:49pm

re: #50 goddamnedfrank

They absolutely should ask the other candidates, but to be fair Cain has opened himself up uniquely to this line of questioning by writing about it in his book. It's a little difficult for him to claim the question arrises solely because of his race when he's answering it from a Barnes & Noble book signing event.

The thing is, if that's the case, the question should have come up much earlier. He said something similar to The Weekly Standard, but only the Cain-detractors caught it at the time.

55 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 6:05:01pm

re: #53 b_sharp

Excellent choice sir. May I also recommend the beer nuts and breadsticks? I would stay away from the chicken however, the chef is still chasing them down.

The troll barbecue is brushed and ready. I believe we may have some leftover gamey troll buttocks from last night's (or was it the night before?) nuclear troll annihilation. Today's flavor is tangy Carolina barbecue.

56 b_sharp  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 6:06:54pm

re: #55 thedopefishlives

The troll barbecue is brushed and ready. I believe we may have some leftover gamey troll buttocks from last night's (or was it the night before?) nuclear troll annihilation. Today's flavor is tangy Carolina barbecue.

Crap, you mean I missed another trollicide?
Just give me the meaty details.

57 goddamnedfrank  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 6:07:51pm

re: #54 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

The thing is, if that's the case, the question should have come up much earlier. He said something similar to The Weekly Standard, but only the Cain-detractors caught it at the time.

I think most interviewers, especially white ones, are kind of scared to confront the issue of race in general. O'Donnell is kind of like the honey badger tho', just plain doesn't give a shit, saw an opening and took it.

58 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 6:09:32pm

re: #56 b_sharp

Crap, you mean I missed another trollicide?
Just give me the meaty details.

It was after the Sarah Palin announcement, so I guess that would actually be Wednesday night, in the RIP Fred Shuttlesworth thread. A large volume of posts were trollhammered. Here's your pulled troll buttocks sandwich.

59 Political Atheist  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 6:09:40pm

re: #51 Killgore Trout

This is where I say states rights should be respected. As much as that phrase has been stolen and damaged by the far right, set that aside a moment. Forget that crap. This is where states must have the right to set their own path. My constitutionally guaranteed access to self defense tools (a gun) need not be subject to my physical medical situation.

When I drink I refrain from any contact with firearms. I would expect the same of any pot smoker. Heck, there are many prescription drugs that might make gun handling and driving or piloting unwise. But when those drugs are not being used, go drive, fly a plane, go to a shoot or hunt.

60 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 6:11:57pm

re: #59 Rightwingconspirator

This is where I say states rights should be respected. As much as that phrase has been stolen and damaged by the far right, set that aside a moment. Forget that crap. This is where states must have the right to set their own path. My constitutionally guaranteed access to self defense tools (a gun) need not be subject to my physical medical situation.

When I drink I refrain from any contact with firearms. I would expect the same of any pot smoker. Heck, there are many prescription drugs that might make gun handling and driving or piloting unwise. But when those drugs are not being used, go drive, fly a plane, go to a shoot or hunt.

I wish somebody would come up with a better term. There's nothing wrong with the concept of state autonomy within a federation. But that takes too long to say.

Rwnj's have totally trashed the concept with their police state/anti-minority behavior.

Dumb bigots.

61 goddamnedfrank  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 6:12:24pm

re: #59 Rightwingconspirator

When I drink I refrain from any contact with firearms. I would expect the same of any pot smoker. Heck, there are many prescription drugs that might make gun handling and driving or piloting unwise. But when those drugs are not being used, go drive, fly a plane, go to a shoot or hunt.

Thanks for giving me an opening to again reference Dick Cheney's little adventure with beta blockers, one beer, a shotgun, and his friend's face.

62 b_sharp  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 6:13:20pm

re: #58 thedopefishlives

It was after the Sarah Palin announcement, so I guess that would actually be Wednesday night, in the RIP Fred Shuttlesworth thread. A large volume of posts were trollhammered. Here's your pulled troll buttocks sandwich.

Thanks. Now where is my Colon Cleanser hot sauce?

63 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 6:13:45pm

re: #62 b_sharp

Thanks. Now where is my Colon Cleanser hot sauce?

Right over there, next to the Brain Bleach.

64 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 6:15:57pm

re: #57 goddamnedfrank

I think most interviewers, especially white ones, are kind of scared to confront the issue of race in general. O'Donnell is kind of like the honey badger tho', just plain doesn't give a shit, saw an opening and took it.

Afraid to confront other whites? That, I could see.

Herman Cain puts himself out there as a shield and cipher for those types, even the Lawrence O'Donnells; like you mention the questions are fair game since he put it in his book.

As much as cons are fond of labeling alsharptonjessejacksonCBCmaxinewaters as race hustlers or whatever their preferred anti-Black epithet of the hour, Cain and the three other Black people in the tea party are far worse as mammy/cream-of-wheat-guy substitutes.

65 Political Atheist  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 6:17:53pm

re: #60 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

With a nod to a reference you make-I'm looking at that as a way of taking the term back from neoconfederate thieves. So when you see this Lizard use the term, that's where I'm at. Taking it back ti rightful use. Let them come up with the new term.

66 Charles Johnson  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 6:22:00pm

Bobby Jindal talking about helping children succeed. This is the governor who signed a creationism law in Louisiana.

67 Eclectic Infidel  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 6:24:08pm

re: #66 Charles

Bobby Jindal talking about helping children succeed. This is the governor who signed a creationism law in Louisiana.

Like many conservatives, he's delusional.

68 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 6:25:39pm

re: #65 Rightwingconspirator

With a nod to a reference you make-I'm looking at that as a way of taking the term back from neoconfederate thieves. So when you see this Lizard use the term, that's where I'm at. Taking it back ti rightful use. Let them come up with the new term.

That's cool. I'll still be using it in its current form, though. I don't think it's salvageable from 150 years of the Ku Klux Klan, White Citizens Councils/Council of Conservative Citizens, neo-Nazis, anti-integrationism, bus burnings, church burnings, lynchings, anti-miscegenation laws, neo-Confederacy, lewrockwell, paleoconservatism, Third Position and the tea party.

69 Kragar  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 6:26:53pm

re: #66 Charles

Bobby Jindal talking about helping children succeed. This is the governor who signed a creationism law in Louisiana.

Succeed means they're right with Baby Jesus before they die of a disease they haven't gotten proper treatment for.

70 b_sharp  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 6:27:57pm

re: #66 Charles

Bobby Jindal talking about helping children succeed. This is the governor who signed a creationism law in Louisiana.

He just wants to pass his education on to the youngsters. In his vision of reality, the burgeoning Corporatocracy will welcome literalist anti-intellectual, anti-science, anti-rational derpbots.

71 allegro  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 6:27:59pm

re: #69 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Succeed means they're right with Baby Jesus before they die of a disease they haven't gotten proper treatment for.

Or get blowed up by a volcano.

72 Four More Tears  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 6:28:28pm

Maddow is doing a story about a 96 year-old woman who can't vote now because of the new ID laws. Problem is she can't one because she doesn't have her marriage license. 'Cause you know, everyone thinks they're going to need that the rest of their lives to prove who they are so they can vote.

And some of you support this nonsense.

73 allegro  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 6:30:09pm

re: #72 JasonA

Maddow is doing a story about a 96 year-old woman who can't vote now because of the new ID laws. Problem is she can't one because she doesn't have her marriage license. 'Cause you know, everyone thinks they're going to need that the rest of their lives to prove who they are so they can vote.

And some of you support this nonsense.

No county records? (I do agree it's nonsense based on an entirely false and manufactured reason.)

74 Four More Tears  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 6:34:59pm

re: #73 allegro

No county records? (I do agree it's nonsense based on an entirely false and manufactured reason.)

Dunno. But here's a gem from an official:

Donnals: Maybe or maybe not. We may have been able to make some phone calls from the center to verify what her married name is. She is saying it’s Cooper, but her birth certificate does not list Cooper as her married name.

Damn. Guess those arranged marriages started early down there...

75 jaunte  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 6:35:31pm

United States ranked and tiered by quality of high schools
Image: US2008HS.gif

76 A Man for all Seasons  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 6:35:46pm

re: #72 JasonA

Maddow is doing a story about a 96 year-old woman who can't vote now because of the new ID laws. Problem is she can't one because she doesn't have her marriage license. 'Cause you know, everyone thinks they're going to need that the rest of their lives to prove who they are so they can vote.

And some of you support this nonsense.

Really? A 96 year old without without any State or Federal issued ID..Weird..
I got a passport without a Marriage license... You can get a free ID in Indiana to vote if you are too poor for free...

78 allegro  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 6:37:02pm

re: #74 JasonA

Dunno. But here's a gem from an official:

Damn. Guess those arranged marriages started early down there...

Whoa, that's for real?

79 Four More Tears  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 6:37:54pm

re: #76 HoosierHoops

Really? A 96 year old without without any State or Federal issued ID..Weird..
I got a passport without a Marriage license... You can get a free ID in Indiana to vote if you are too poor for free...

Uh huh. And I'm sure you have to be able to prove who you are to get that ID.

80 Four More Tears  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 6:38:11pm

re: #78 allegro

[Link: www.nashvillescene.com...]

81 Simply Sarah  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 6:39:06pm

re: #75 jaunte

United States ranked and tiered by quality of high schools
Image: US2008HS.gif

I wonder why there's no data from Nebraska or Oklahoma.

82 A Man for all Seasons  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 6:40:53pm

re: #79 JasonA

Uh huh. And I'm sure you have to be able to prove who you are to get that ID.

Probably no more than having ID to open a Bank account or cash SS checks when you are 96 years old.. How does she cash her check every month for the last 30 years?
/ Hi JasonA..Not picking a fight..

83 Killgore Trout  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 6:41:00pm

re: #81 Simply Sarah

I wonder why there's no data from Nebraska or Oklahoma.

Wagon trains have been delayed due to turnip famine.

84 jaunte  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 6:41:20pm

re: #81 Simply Sarah

Bison ate the homework...

85 allegro  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 6:41:31pm

re: #80 JasonA

[Link: www.nashvillescene.com...]

That is... surreal.

86 Four More Tears  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 6:42:30pm

re: #82 HoosierHoops

Probably no more than having ID to open a Bank account or cash SS checks when you are 96 years old.. How does she cash her check every month for the last 30 years?
/ Hi JasonA..Not picking a fight..

How long have banks required a valid ID to open an account?

Remember, she's 96...

87 The Ghost of a Flea  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 6:42:40pm

re: #81 Simply Sarah

I wonder why there's no data from Nebraska or Oklahoma.

The Comanche are making a comeback.

88 jaunte  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 6:43:55pm

re: #85 allegro

"...her birth certificate does not list Cooper as her married name."

That seems to be the standard for most non-incestuous marriages.

89 Simply Sarah  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 6:44:52pm

I'm also sort of shocked at the size of the gap between Massachusetts and Minnesota on the second link.

90 Simply Sarah  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 6:45:57pm

re: #85 allegro

That is... surreal.

The entire situation is asinine to the extreme. There's no excuse for this. None at all.

91 goddamnedfrank  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 6:46:33pm

re: #76 HoosierHoops

Really? A 96 year old without without any State or Federal issued ID..Weird..
I got a passport without a Marriage license... You can get a free ID in Indiana to vote if you are too poor for free...

You already had ID. Imagine that all your ID has been lost, say it was stolen, or there was a fire, the specifics don't really matter because it's gone. Now imagine that you're a woman and changed your last name decades ago, but the marriage license was lost with the rest of your id. All you have access to is a birth certificate, and the last name doesn't match any of your bills, the name printed on your checkbook, etc. I'm sure there has to be some kind of workaround, but it isn't immediately obvious to me what it is.

92 Four More Tears  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 6:46:38pm

re: #90 Simply Sarah

The entire situation is asinine to the extreme. There's no excuse for this. None at all.

This whole voter fraud bullshit has worked wonders.

93 Four More Tears  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 6:48:05pm

re: #91 goddamnedfrank

You already had ID. Imagine that all your ID has been lost, say it was stolen, or there was a fire, the specifics don't really matter because it's gone. Now imagine that you're a woman and changed your last name decades ago, but the marriage license was lost with the rest of your id. All you have access to is a birth certificate, and the last name doesn't match any of your bills, the name printed on your checkbook, etc. I'm sure there has to be some kind of workaround, but it isn't immediately obvious to me what it is.

Good catch. We men sometimes take for granted that we don't have to deal with the consequences of changing our last name unless we get put in witness protection.

94 HappyWarrior  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 6:48:05pm

re: #92 JasonA

This whole voter fraud bullshit has worked wonders.

Yes, it has. I feel for this woman. Truth is the Republicans know they benefit from a lower turnout especially in presidential years. Hate to sound so cynical but that's what I gather from this.

95 allegro  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 6:49:03pm

re: #91 goddamnedfrank

You already had ID. Imagine that all your ID has been lost, say it was stolen, or there was a fire, the specifics don't really matter because it's gone. Now imagine that you're a woman and changed your last name decades ago, but the marriage license was lost with the rest of your id. All you have access to is a birth certificate, and the last name doesn't match any of your bills, the name printed on your checkbook, etc. I'm sure there has to be some kind of workaround, but it isn't immediately obvious to me what it is.

Good reason for a woman to not change her name when she marries. I didn't and it's saved a whole lot of grief.

96 Simply Sarah  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 6:49:22pm

re: #94 HappyWarrior

Yes, it has. I feel for this woman. Truth is the Republicans know they benefit from a lower turnout especially in presidential years. Hate to sound so cynical but that's what I gather from this.

Well, that's their hope, at least. I'm not sure there's actually evidence to back up that it'll work, but that doesn't really make it any less disgusting.

97 jaunte  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 6:50:56pm

Another fanatic theocrat.

98 FemNaziBitch  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 6:54:12pm

Today's quota of kitteh!

Happy Friday!

What is everyone doing this weekend?

99 A Man for all Seasons  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 6:55:10pm

re: #91 goddamnedfrank

You already had ID. Imagine that all your ID has been lost, say it was stolen, or there was a fire, the specifics don't really matter because it's gone. Now imagine that you're a woman and changed your last name decades ago, but the marriage license was lost with the rest of your id. All you have access to is a birth certificate, and the last name doesn't match any of your bills, the name printed on your checkbook, etc. I'm sure there has to be some kind of workaround, but it isn't immediately obvious to me what it is.

That would be hell.. Wait I lost all my ID once...The night my Daughter was born..It was hell...
But listen..We are talking ID for Voting right? Why did Indiana Voter law pass the SCOTUS? Cause no matter what you can get a free ID in Indiana..You just have to promise to come back later and bring some Info.. You know.. Electric bill and stuff like that.. Other than that you are good to go to vote in Indiana..Which is good cause in Illinois you generally need to be dead to vote..
//

100 HappyWarrior  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 6:55:58pm

re: #96 Simply Sarah

Well, that's their hope, at least. I'm not sure there's actually evidence to back up that it'll work, but that doesn't really make it any less disgusting.

I know. I saw kind of how they work when the College Republicans here rejected a proposal to allow for a voting precinct on campus. There was no reason at all for them to reject it but they did. The good news though was the precinct is now on campus.

101 Cannadian Club Akbar  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 6:56:12pm

Wow!! A big mess about voting. Well, my county, who aren't idiots, let me vote by mail in. But then again, we're not stoopid.
Evening Honchos!!

102 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 6:56:32pm
103 Stanghazi  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 6:56:43pm

re: #61 goddamnedfrank

Thanks for giving me an opening to again reference Dick Cheney's little adventure with beta blockers, one beer, a shotgun, and his friend's face.

Somewhere I heard tequila. Damn the people who keep quiet. Think is $ or some misguided loyalty?

104 A Man for all Seasons  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 6:56:44pm

re: #98 ggt

Today's quota of kitteh!

Happy Friday!

What is everyone doing this weekend?

Huge party at the Lodge in the morning.. Oklahoma vs. Texas.. Tons of food and drink...

105 Political Atheist  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 6:58:12pm

re: #98 ggt

Just fine after a good venting up thread. How are you?

106 PhillyPretzel  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 6:58:43pm

re: #98 ggt
Aww. That is soo cute.

107 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 6:59:05pm

re: #72 JasonA

Maddow is doing a story about a 96 year-old woman who can't vote now because of the new ID laws. Problem is she can't one because she doesn't have her marriage license. 'Cause you know, everyone thinks they're going to need that the rest of their lives to prove who they are so they can vote.

And some of you support this nonsense.

This is also something that will affect adoptees in closed adoptions (which is most in the country alive today, especially my generation and earlier.) In the vast majority of states (ex: GA and AK), people do not have access to their original birth certificates, because they are sealed by state law.

Not even the person referenced has access to it. I know people who cannot get a passport because they do not have OBC access thanks to crackdowns on identity post-9/11.

Welcome to states rights/adoptionland/forced-childbirth America, where your own identity is a state secret. /blah

108 allegro  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 7:00:36pm

re: #107 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

Wow, I did not know that. I would think they would provide some kind of replacement documentation at least.

109 FemNaziBitch  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 7:03:16pm

re: #105 Rightwingconspirator

Just fine after a good venting up thread. How are you?

Awake, warm, allergied out. We are having a warm spell and I dont' want to turn the air back on for a day.

Venting? Was it a catharsis?

110 A Man for all Seasons  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 7:03:20pm

re: #107 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

Come on man..That isn't right.. I was adopted when I was 12 yrs. old..
You don't need an OBC for anything.. You need the amended BC with a state seal and a judges signature...That's how we bastards roll

111 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 7:03:44pm

re: #108 allegro

Wow, I did not know that. I would think they would provide some kind of replacement documentation at least.

You can only get amended BCs. Some government agencies take them, some don't.

This is why many adoptees I know have been laffin' at the idiot birthers' insistence on Obama's OBC. It's like, great job, Donald Trump. You got his unsealed, now unseal mine.

Of course, the prolifers throw a frickin fit when one starts talking like this. They have a lot to cover up - sealed records that no one can open but some clerk in the state capital does the trick.

112 FemNaziBitch  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 7:04:26pm

re: #106 PhillyPretzel

Aww. That is soo cute.

I like the kitteh chewing on the stick!

113 FemNaziBitch  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 7:04:52pm

re: #97 jaunte

Another fanatic theocrat.

No, we don't need another. Send it back, get a refund.

114 Political Atheist  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 7:07:09pm

re: #109 ggt

Well my #36 and a few follow ups. But rather than independent, I think of myself as a political party atheist. I'm just done with partisan motives for opinion or policy.

115 goddamnedfrank  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 7:08:01pm

re: #103 Stanley Sea

Somewhere I heard tequila.

I like to think it was peyote, because Cheney is hardcore.

116 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 7:11:00pm

re: #110 HoosierHoops

The US didn't always seal birth records and there's no reason to, now. My opinion is, every other taxpaying adult has access to theirs, no questions asked; why seal ours.

117 Political Atheist  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 7:12:31pm

re: #109 ggt

Oh yes it certainly was a catharsis. And a Keg too.

118 jaunte  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 7:12:37pm

James Urbaniak tweets:

Appropriately, this week marks the 3rd anniversary @RichLowry's classic "little starbursts" Palin post. Never forget.

bit.ly/boQvFX

Lowry: I’m sure I’m not the only male in America who, when Palin dropped her first wink, sat up a little straighter on the couch and said, “Hey, I think she just winked at me.” And her smile. By the end, when she clearly knew she was doing well, it was so sparkling it was almost mesmerizing. It sent little starbursts through the screen and ricocheting around the living rooms of America.

119 FemNaziBitch  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 7:15:08pm

re: #51 Killgore Trout

I've been following the weed situation a bit lately and it's a clusterfuck. As usual it comes down to money. There's no (legal) way to claim income tax from selling weed so the Feds are obligated to shut down dispensaries. The archaic "war on drugs" laws means legal growers can't own guns. I have slim hope Obama may deal with this if he gets a second term but that whole scenario is looking pretty unlikely.

The War on Drugs is a more blatant failure than the debacle in Afghanistan.

It needs to be ended, but as usual, the players are making too much money. It won't end until the money trail is followed and exposed. IMHO.

120 albusteve  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 7:15:18pm

some Joe B...
for the blues gurus

121 FemNaziBitch  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 7:16:58pm

re: #117 Rightwingconspirator

Oh yes it certainly was a catharsis. And a Keg too.

I'll take a fresh pot, real half & half and coconut sugar.

Thank you!

122 albusteve  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 7:17:57pm

re: #119 ggt

The War on Drugs is a more blatant failure than the debacle in Afghanistan.

It needs to be ended, but as usual, the players are making too much money. It won't end until the money trail is followed and exposed. IMHO.

the 'money' fills the enforcement and judicial coffers, coast to coast....it's not hard to trail

123 Amory Blaine  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 7:18:48pm

So how was it? Good time had by all?

124 windsagio  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 7:19:40pm

re: #119 ggt

The War on Drugs is a more blatant failure than the debacle in Afghanistan.

It needs to be ended, but as usual, the players are making too much money. It won't end until the money trail is followed and exposed. IMHO.

I think you're wrong about that to some degree. It'll end with the generational shift, and it's already happening.

125 Simply Sarah  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 7:20:40pm

re: #122 albusteve

the 'money' fills the enforcement and judicial coffers, coast to coast...it's not hard to trail

I think you mean the coffers of private prisons.

126 albusteve  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 7:21:37pm

re: #125 Simply Sarah

I think you mean the coffers of private prisons.

jail is a function of the govt...all the same

127 Stanghazi  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 7:22:27pm

re: #118 jaunte

James Urbaniak tweets:

bit.ly/boQvFX

And at that same moment every woman who had a shred of self_respect, who has competed with the dudes in the office & done well, only to find out they make a lot more, well we cringed. Because at that moment brains didn't count for female candidates, winks did.

Disgusting.

128 FemNaziBitch  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 7:23:01pm

re: #122 albusteve

the 'money' fills the enforcement and judicial coffers, coast to coast...it's not hard to trail

I think it goes further up than that -- we have to find it and end the War on Drugs!

129 jaunte  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 7:23:16pm

Fischer: All Will Be Lost If Gay Marriage Passes

"Our survival as a civilization, as a culture, depends on protecting the institution of marriage, everything is at risk here: our economic prosperity, our survival, our national security, all of it hinges on our willingness as a culture to protect monogamy and to protect the institution of marriage."

Sounds like he's in the grip of a phobia to me.

130 HappyWarrior  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 7:24:24pm

re: #129 jaunte

Fischer: All Will Be Lost If Gay Marriage Passes

Sounds like he's in the grip of a phobia to me.

He needs to get laid desperately.

131 albusteve  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 7:24:56pm

re: #128 ggt

I think it goes further up than that -- we have to find it and end the War on Drugs!

we need an epic generational shift

132 Amory Blaine  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 7:25:15pm

re: #130 HappyWarrior


All what? His bet money?

133 Simply Sarah  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 7:25:18pm

re: #129 jaunte

Fischer: All Will Be Lost If Gay Marriage Passes

Sounds like he's in the grip of a phobia to me.

Blahblahblah. Yes, yes, if I marry a woman, civilization will end.

134 FemNaziBitch  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 7:25:31pm

re: #129 jaunte

Fischer: All Will Be Lost If Gay Marriage Passes

Sounds like he's in the grip of a phobia to me.

The Earth will implode and a black whole will be created with more sucking power than has ever be conceived. The Universe will be drawn in and be recreated inside out on the other side. It will be like the Star Trek Terran World!

The Horror

135 jaunte  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 7:25:45pm

re: #130 HappyWarrior

"they are anti-American because they are laboring to subvert the pillars [on] which this civilization rests"

He's worried about people touching his pillars.

136 FemNaziBitch  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 7:26:40pm

re: #130 HappyWarrior

He needs to get laid desperately.

and smoke something before and after!

137 FemNaziBitch  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 7:27:02pm

re: #135 jaunte

He's worried about people touching his pillars.

He has more than one?

138 A Man for all Seasons  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 7:27:22pm

re: #120 albusteve

some Joe B...
for the blues gurus

[Video]

I kind of hate him.. He plays the guitar like a genius and doesn't use a pick..
He reminds me of Derek Trucks on Guitar slide.. I kind of hate him also..
Just pure genius and touch...I know this much about guitar.. It takes years to figure out that it is all about touch...
I can't play without a pick..I just can't

139 HappyWarrior  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 7:27:53pm

re: #132 Amory Blaine

All what? His bet money?

Ha, I dunno. Dude just seems obsessed with gay sex. It's sad.

140 FemNaziBitch  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 7:29:32pm

re: #139 HappyWarrior

Ha, I dunno. Dude just seems obsessed with gay sex. It's sad.

Did we know someone else like that?

141 albusteve  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 7:30:02pm

re: #138 HoosierHoops

I kind of hate him.. He plays the guitar like a genius and doesn't use a pick..
He reminds me of Derek Trucks on Guitar slide.. I kind of hate him also..
Just pure genius and touch...I know this much about guitar.. It takes years to figure out that it is all about touch...
I can't play without a pick..I just can't

you will...grab a flat top and do this...it's easy

142 FemNaziBitch  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 7:32:59pm

My personal philosophy is that he world would be a better place if everyone, once in their life, got high and had a really good fuck.

143 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 7:33:12pm

re: #135 jaunte

He's worried about people touching his pillars.

Maybe he's scared somebody will mess with his fabric.

144 albusteve  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 7:34:20pm

re: #142 ggt

My personal philosophy is that he world would be a better place if everyone, once in their life, got high and had a really good fuck.

then I've done more than my share to rescue humanity

145 Lidane  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 7:34:34pm

re: #31 Charles

The Values Voter Summit has chosen classical marches (read: circus music) for their bumper music. Copyright-free and culture war approved.

Music written entirely by white men that they don't have to pay royalties on and which don't have any lyrics of note, unless they were added later by other white men.

Gotta love it.

146 FemNaziBitch  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 7:35:33pm

re: #144 albusteve

then I've done more than my share to rescue humanity

It doesn't seem to be working.

147 Kragar  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 7:36:51pm

re: #145 Lidane

Music written entirely by white men that they don't have to pay royalties on and which don't have any lyrics of note, unless they were added later by other white men.

Gotta love it.

148 albusteve  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 7:36:53pm

re: #146 ggt

It doesn't seem to be working.

it works for me....you do what you can and fuck the rest

149 albusteve  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 7:38:01pm

ZZ Top....La Grange
dig it

150 FemNaziBitch  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 7:38:42pm

bbiab

(laundry)

151 reine.de.tout  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 7:38:49pm

re: #135 jaunte

He's worried about people touching his pillars.

Speaking of pillars . . .

I put this morning's penis gourd story up on my FB, and even tagged my daughter so she'd be sure to see it, but no reaction from any of the young 'uns. What's wrong with this generation? Have they no desire to be silly and have fun with weird things?

152 allegro  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 7:39:54pm

re: #147 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Upding for Bouree. Awesome.

153 jaunte  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 7:40:08pm

re: #151 reine.de.tout

Nothing? I can't believe they won't say anything. Maybe they just haven't checked today.

154 lostlakehiker  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 7:40:30pm

re: #32 eclectic infidel

So where's the liberty when someone loses their assets, retirement, or house when they can't pay their hospital bill?

Fuck the conservatives.

You actually said, fuck liberty. Material reverses are not a reason to curse liberty.

You curse conservatives because they really mean it about preferring death to the loss of liberty. With you, it is evidently the other way around.

155 reine.de.tout  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 7:40:49pm

re: #153 jaunte

Nothing? I can't believe they won't say anything. Maybe they just haven't checked today.

*sigh*
I was so certain I'd get some sort of reaction.
These kids need to lighten up.

156 Lidane  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 7:42:16pm

re: #154 lostlakehiker

You curse conservatives because they really mean it about preferring death to the loss of liberty.

Bullshit. Total, absolute bullshit. They only care about losing their tax breaks.

Liberty? Pfft. Find me a right wing policy these days that's ACTUALLY about liberty for anyone who earns under $250k and who isn't an investor.

157 jaunte  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 7:43:33pm

re: #156 Lidane

Oh, that's an easy one:

In his fight for smaller government, Florida Rep. Ritch Workman wants to do something for the little people: He wants to let 'em fly. The Melbourne Republican has decided that the state's 22-year-old ban on dwarf-tossing in bars is keeping height-challenged residents from realizing their full career potential in a recession.
[Link: motherjones.com...]

158 windsagio  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 7:43:45pm

re: #151 reine.de.tout

Speaking of pillars . . .

I put this morning's penis gourd story up on my FB, and even tagged my daughter so she'd be sure to see it, but no reaction from any of the young 'uns. What's wrong with this generation? Have they no desire to be silly and have fun with weird things?

a penisgourd is frightfully prosaic compared to what we're used to seeing on the 'net.

159 windsagio  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 7:44:28pm

re: #158 windsagio

I'd give examples, but... well you know how it is :p

160 albusteve  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 7:44:39pm

partisan...what else matters?

161 HappyWarrior  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 7:45:16pm

re: #157 jaunte

Oh, that's an easy one:

Well I am glad the coincidentally named Mr. Workman is fighting for my liberty to toss a midget in a bar.

162 Varek Raith  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 7:45:58pm

re: #151 reine.de.tout

Speaking of pillars . . .

I put this morning's penis gourd story up on my FB, and even tagged my daughter so she'd be sure to see it, but no reaction from any of the young 'uns. What's wrong with this generation? Have they no desire to be silly and have fun with weird things?

Hehehehe, you said 'penis'.
Hehehehe
Image: small-bnb.gif

163 Kragar  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 7:46:34pm

re: #158 windsagio

a penisgourd is frightfully prosaic compared to what we're used to seeing on the 'net.

164 albusteve  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 7:48:37pm

re: #163 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

[Video]

is that you?....if so you need some sun

165 reine.de.tout  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 7:49:05pm

re: #158 windsagio

a penisgourd is frightfully prosaic compared to what we're used to seeing on the 'net.

Maybe that's it.
It was more the fact that MOM posted it that I thought would get a reaction.

166 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 7:49:18pm

Incorrect. Too many conservatives confuse "liberty" with "I get to do to you whatever the fuck I please, and you'll take it and like it."

Liberty for themselves, only, 2nd class citizenship for all others.

Cons like that ruin the concept of "liberty" just like they do "states rights", and exactly in the same ways. If people don't trust the conservative definition of the word, that's on them.

re: #154 lostlakehiker

You actually said, fuck liberty. Material reverses are not a reason to curse liberty.

You curse conservatives because they really mean it about preferring death to the loss of liberty. With you, it is evidently the other way around.

167 Kragar  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 7:49:40pm

re: #164 albusteve

is that you?...if so you need some sun

Nope

168 lostlakehiker  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 7:52:55pm

re: #156 Lidane

Bullshit. Total, absolute bullshit. They only care about losing their tax breaks.

Liberty? Pfft. Find me a right wing policy these days that's ACTUALLY about liberty for anyone who earns under $250k and who isn't an investor.

re: #156 Lidane

Bullshit. Total, absolute bullshit. They only care about losing their tax breaks.

Liberty? Pfft. Find me a right wing policy these days that's ACTUALLY about liberty for anyone who earns under $250k and who isn't an investor.

None that you would grant, with your view of what liberty is. California's ban on racial preferences in University admissions would be an example, though. Another would be the right to work---without having to join a union and then pay dues that go to Democrats.

Another would be the right to vote in a SECRET ballot in a union election, a right liberals resent.

169 Lidane  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 7:53:07pm

re: #166 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

Liberty for themselves, only, 2nd class citizenship for all others.

Pretty much. If you're gay, or a woman, or a minority, or are anything other than a rich, white, fundamentalist Protestant Christian male landowner, fuck you. You're on your own, and go buy some bootstraps while you're at it.

For these "values voter" assholes, liberty only exists for them and people like them. Everyone else is collateral damage.

170 Stanghazi  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 7:53:39pm

re: #142 ggt

My personal philosophy is that he world would be a better place if everyone, once in their life, got high and had a really good fuck.

Love ya!

171 Stanghazi  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 7:54:52pm

re: #144 albusteve

then I've done more than my share to rescue humanity

And I'm trying hard now to save this world.

172 Lidane  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 7:55:36pm

re: #168 lostlakehiker

None that you would grant, with your view of what liberty is.

Aww. Did I hurt your feelings? Too bad.

Face it. The modern right wing is filled with people who don't give a fuck about anyone but themselves, then they have the nerve to call that liberty. Excuse me if I'm not impressed by what they're selling.

173 Obdicut  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 7:55:47pm

re: #168 lostlakehiker

Another would be the right to vote in a SECRET ballot in a union election, a right liberals resent.

Do you somehow feel that's an adequate treatment of the issue?

174 albusteve  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 7:55:55pm

re: #169 Lidane

Pretty much. If you're gay, or a woman, or a minority, or are anything other than a rich, white, fundamentalist Protestant Christian male landowner, fuck you. You're on your own, and go buy some bootstraps while you're at it.

For these "values voter" assholes, liberty only exists for them and people like them. Everyone else is collateral damage.

I suggest you withdraw from opinion, polls, politics and GOP influence...clearly you are making yourself ill

175 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 7:57:15pm

re: #91 goddamnedfrank

You already had ID. Imagine that all your ID has been lost, say it was stolen, or there was a fire, the specifics don't really matter because it's gone. Now imagine that you're a woman and changed your last name decades ago, but the marriage license was lost with the rest of your id. All you have access to is a birth certificate, and the last name doesn't match any of your bills, the name printed on your checkbook, etc. I'm sure there has to be some kind of workaround, but it isn't immediately obvious to me what it is.

It has been federal law that the states have to keep records of marriages.

Since 1907.

176 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 7:57:21pm

"Liberty" means you better pay your taxes so we can pay the police to proect me from you.

Cuz I JUST KNOW yer comin for MY STUFF. lol

re: #156 Lidane

Bullshit. Total, absolute bullshit. They only care about losing their tax breaks.

Liberty? Pfft. Find me a right wing policy these days that's ACTUALLY about liberty for anyone who earns under $250k and who isn't an investor.

177 Stanghazi  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 7:57:43pm

re: #158 windsagio

a penisgourd is frightfully prosaic compared to what we're used to seeing on the 'net.

Lol

178 Kragar  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 7:57:54pm

re: #171 Stanley Sea

And I'm trying hard now to save this world.

Save the cheerleader, save the world...

179 allegro  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 7:58:04pm

re: #174 albusteve

I suggest you withdraw from opinion, polls, politics and GOP influence...clearly you are making yourself ill

Don't worry her pretty little head about it?

///

180 jaunte  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 7:58:25pm

re: #178 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

She just decided not to run.

181 Amory Blaine  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 7:58:53pm

re: #168 lostlakehiker

You have the right to work without a union. 12% of the workforce is unionized. 88% of the jobs aren't unionized.

182 albusteve  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 7:59:04pm

re: #179 allegro

Don't worry her pretty little head about it?

///

good grief...

183 lostlakehiker  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 7:59:47pm

re: #142 ggt

My personal philosophy is that he world would be a better place if everyone, once in their life, got high and had a really good fuck.

Just once? Man, that's thin rations.

184 dell*nix  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 8:00:40pm

re: #74 JasonA

Most likely a delayed birth certificate. Some states did not start enforcing birth certificate laws until the 1920's or 1930's. I have seen some with 1940's issue dates for pre-1910 births.

185 Varek Raith  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 8:00:44pm

Cain said he would never appoint a Muslim to his cabinet.
LIBERTY!
9_9

186 Lidane  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 8:01:11pm

re: #181 Amory Blaine

You have the right to work without a union. 12% of the workforce is unionized. 88% of the jobs aren't unionized.

Shh. Don't bring facts into anything. They screw up the narrative.

187 A Man for all Seasons  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 8:01:52pm

re: #171 Stanley Sea

And I'm trying hard now to save this world.

Well hey there baby!
Slips and falls
Hey who keeps moving the damn props here?
Sorry Mr. Hoopster...
I'm Working here!
Sorry...
OK.. Where was I? Ok
Hey Baby...
OK WHAT THE HELL IS GOING ON?
Sorry Mr. Hoopster..I'm the cater tonight..
Do I walk into your shot? Do I Fix the food in front of you? Do I?
No Sir...
Where were we people? People?
Lunch..
Really? What's for lunch?
*wink*

188 albusteve  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 8:02:12pm

does the GOP actually have the capacity to destroy the human race?....should I freak out?...tell me when

189 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 8:02:47pm

re: #184 dell*nix

Most likely a delayed birth certificate. Some states did not start enforcing birth certificate laws until the 1920's or 1930's. I have seen some with 1940's issue dates for pre-1910 births.

True. I know a woman that, in order to get her passport, had to bring her older brother to swear that he remembered her birth. She would be in her late 80's now.

190 lostlakehiker  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 8:02:57pm

re: #173 Obdicut

Do you somehow feel that's an adequate treatment of the issue?

Hardly. One comment doesn't exhaust the matter. But when I do give an exhaustive treatment, as in the voting power of being in a large state or small, you don't read it for comprehension. You just misstate and shoot down straw men.

191 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 8:03:42pm

re: #169 Lidane

Pretty much. If you're gay, or a woman, or a minority, or are anything other than a rich, white, fundamentalist Protestant Christian male landowner, fuck you. You're on your own, and go buy some bootstraps while you're at it.

For these "values voter" assholes, liberty only exists for them and people like them. Everyone else is collateral damage.

My various peoples have indeed made them a miserable lot in recent years. /Schdenfreude

Filthy supremacists

192 Lidane  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 8:04:15pm

re: #188 albusteve

They certainly have the capacity to destroy this country financially. For example, see their taking us to the edge of default for no reason just to try and score political points with the nutjob base.

193 Kragar  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 8:04:18pm

re: #185 Varek Raith

Cain said he would never appoint a Muslim to his cabinet.
LIBERTY!
9_9

They love the constitution.

Except for the no religious test part.

The no religious test part and the 14th amendment.

The no religious test part and the 14th amendment and the judicial branch.

The no religious test part and the 14th amendment and the judicial branch and providing for the general welfare.

The no religious test part and the 14th amendment and the judicial branch and providing for the general welfare and the 1st Amendment.

Maybe it would be easier just to list the God parts of... well shit, that won't work either.

194 albusteve  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 8:05:07pm

re: #192 Lidane

They certainly have the capacity to destroy this country financially. For example, see their taking us to the edge of default for no reason just to try and score political points with the nutjob base.

fact...
close don't count

195 Lidane  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 8:05:59pm

re: #194 albusteve

So we should just keep voting them in until they finally pull the trigger someday?

196 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 8:07:29pm

A bunch of them think/wish/hope so, no doubt.

Overcompensation for general impotence, if you ask me.

re: #188 albusteve

does the GOP actually have the capacity to destroy the human race?...should I freak out?...tell me when

197 PhillyPretzel  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 8:07:48pm

Good Night to my fellow Lizards.

198 windsagio  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 8:08:56pm

re: #195 Lidane

So we should just keep voting them in until they finally pull the trigger someday?

sad thing is it doesn't even matter. they're so good at selling the fantasy that Corporatist/conservative types could have actually caused a default and the 'lower taxes and deregulate everything' would STILL seem like the right decision to people.

199 windsagio  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 8:09:36pm

re: #188 albusteve

does the GOP actually have the capacity to destroy the human race?...should I freak out?...tell me when

Well they sure thought Goldwater did.

Reagan too arguably.

200 albusteve  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 8:09:41pm

re: #195 Lidane

So we should just keep voting them in until they finally pull the trigger someday?

vote however you like...imo it hardly matters who's president or what congressional weight one party pulls...you'll see for yourself someday

201 windsagio  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 8:10:05pm

re: #199 windsagio

202 Obdicut  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 8:10:12pm

re: #190 lostlakehiker

Hardly. One comment doesn't exhaust the matter. But when I do give an exhaustive treatment, as in the voting power of being in a large state or small, you don't read it for comprehension. You just misstate and shoot down straw men.

Then do it for the benefit of others, not me. You're not having an argument with me, you're presenting your case to everyone here.

Or rather, not presenting your case, apparently.

203 goddamnedfrank  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 8:11:16pm

re: #195 Lidane

So we should just keep voting them in until they finally pull the trigger someday?

Apparently. That's why I'm organizing for Sword/Lake of Fire in 2012. Our motto is cut out the middleman.

204 albusteve  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 8:11:32pm

re: #202 Obdicut

Then do it for the benefit of others, not me. You're not having an argument with me, you're presenting your case to everyone here.

Or rather, not presenting your case, apparently.

nice...you are mellowing

205 lostlakehiker  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 8:13:40pm

re: #202 Obdicut

Then do it for the benefit of others, not me. You're not having an argument with me, you're presenting your case to everyone here.

Or rather, not presenting your case, apparently.

Well, then, I have not exhausted the list of conservative positions that are pro-liberty. I've just given a sampling.

206 Varek Raith  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 8:14:42pm

re: #205 lostlakehiker

Well, then, I have not exhausted the list of conservative positions that are pro-liberty. I've just given a sampling.

Unless you're gay.
Or a woman.
Or a union.
Or a minority.
Or not a Christian.
;)

207 Lidane  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 8:15:55pm

re: #205 lostlakehiker

Well, then, I have not exhausted the list of conservative positions that are pro-liberty. I've just given a sampling.

So far, you haven't offered anything apart from some whining about unions.

Try again.

208 Lidane  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 8:17:18pm

re: #203 goddamnedfrank

Apparently. That's why I'm organizing for Sword/Lake of Fire in 2012. Our motto is cut out the middleman.

Cthulhu/Voldemort

Why bother with a lesser evil?

209 lostlakehiker  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 8:18:04pm

re: #206 Varek Raith

Unless you're gay.
Or a woman.
Or a union.
Or a minority.
Or not a Christian.
;)

You have a point.
You don't.
You don't.
You don't
You don't.

210 Obdicut  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 8:18:33pm

re: #205 lostlakehiker

Well, then, I have not exhausted the list of conservative positions that are pro-liberty. I've just given a sampling.

You haven't shown how any of them are actually pro-liberty. You've just asserted they are.

And all it appears to be is that you're defining liberty differently than those you're arguing with. Big whoop.

I think there's plenty of 'pro-liberty' 'conservative' positions. Not the anti-union ones; there's nothing 'conservative' about being anti-union. Unions are old, and even Reagan clearly understood the vital need for them. Union-busting is a reactionary, not a conservative trait.

David Cameron, in England, just gave a very good conservative defense of gay marriage. The right to privacy is something that conservatives-- not social conservatives-- have often defended, which is a very pro-liberty stance.

It all depends on what you mean by liberty, and what you mean by conservative. The modern GOP: not so much defenders of liberty, unless your definition of it is very, very odd.

Classical conservatives? Often the defenders of liberty.

211 Gepetto  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 8:19:24pm

re: #51 Killgore Trout

its a terrible situation. many dispensaries around here were shut down abruptly, after the operators followed every state and local ordinance, resulting in a bunch of lost livelihoods, and an inability to get a prescribed therapy for many sick people.

I've been thinking perhaps the stage is being set for a federalized marijuana system that transcends state or local control.

212 Kragar  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 8:19:52pm

re: #208 Lidane

Cthulhu/Voldemort

Why bother with a lesser evil?

Sorry, Cthulhu can't run anymore even since he got caught in that Japanese porn scandal.

213 HappyWarrior  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 8:20:22pm

re: #210 Obdicut

You haven't shown how any of them are actually pro-liberty. You've just asserted they are.

And all it appears to be is that you're defining liberty differently than those your'e arguing with. Big whoop.

I think there's plenty of 'pro-liberty' 'conservative' positions. Not the anti-union ones; there's nothing 'conservative' about being anti-union. Unions are old, and even Reagan clearly understood the vital need for them. Union-busting is a reactionary, not a conservative trait.

David Cameron, in England, just gave a very good conservative defense of gay marriage. The right to privacy is something that conservatives-- not social conservatives-- have often defended, which is a very pro-liberty stance.

It all depends on what you mean by liberty, and what you mean by conservative. The modern GOP: not so much defenders of liberty, unless your definition of it is very, very odd.

Classical conservatives? Often the defenders of liberty.

I saw what Cameron said. I wish more American conservatives were like that. Heck wish more elected American liberals were like that. I agree with you about classical conservatism. I am skeptical of modern conservatives and modern conservatism big time though.

214 dell*nix  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 8:20:49pm

re: #212 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

So that was him at the end of Edo Porn?

215 Lidane  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 8:21:07pm

re: #202 Obdicut

Or rather, not presenting your case, apparently.

Hell, let's start small. I'd love an explanation for how the conservative policy of forcing an ultrasound wand up a woman's vagina against her will is pro-liberty.

216 Lidane  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 8:22:09pm

re: #212 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Sorry, Cthulhu can't run anymore even since he got caught in that Japanese porn scandal.

He was caught nailing girls. That should score him extra bonus points, not work against him.

It's not like he had a wide stance or went hiking on the Appalachian Trail or anything.

217 Obdicut  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 8:22:41pm

re: #213 HappyWarrior

Social conservatism in the US today is not conservative. It is radical. In its attitudes towards the poor, immigrants, those of minority faiths, gay people, women, it promotes radical change, everything from defining 'personhood' from the moment of conception to altering the 14th amendment.

Social conservatism tarnishes the word conservatism by association, but unfortunately, as Romney is showing by attending this Value Voters summit, social conservatism rules the roost at the GOP.

218 windsagio  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 8:23:50pm

re: #210 Obdicut

Classical conservatives? Often the defenders of liberty.

Classic conservatives are the Unicorn of politics.

They're beautiful and pure and wonderful, but they're unfortunately also mythical.

219 Lidane  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 8:24:19pm

re: #217 Obdicut

Social conservatism in the US today is not conservative. It is radical. In its attitudes towards the poor, immigrants, those of minority faiths, gay people, women, it promotes radical change, everything from defining 'personhood' from the moment of conception to altering the 14th amendment.

Social conservatism tarnishes the word conservatism by association, but unfortunately, as Romney is showing by attending this Value Voters summit, social conservatism rules the roost at the GOP.

That's because social conservatism IS the GOP. That's what the party has become at its very core.

Oh sure, they still faithfully trot out all the bullshit about lower taxes, smaller government and individual liberty, but that's just to keep fooling the people who vote for them. It's not sincere.

220 windsagio  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 8:24:34pm

re: #216 Lidane

people thing the tentacle thing only applies to girls as victims.

They are sadly mistaken >>

221 HappyWarrior  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 8:24:52pm

re: #217 Obdicut

Social conservatism in the US today is not conservative. It is radical. In its attitudes towards the poor, immigrants, those of minority faiths, gay people, women, it promotes radical change, everything from defining 'personhood' from the moment of conception to altering the 14th amendment.

Social conservatism tarnishes the word conservatism by association, but unfortunately, as Romney is showing by attending this Value Voters summit, social conservatism rules the roost at the GOP.

Agree with everything you say. It's pathetic.

222 Kragar  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 8:25:55pm

re: #220 windsagio

people thing the tentacle thing only applies to girls as victims.

They are sadly mistaken >>

The horrors I have seen...

223 lostlakehiker  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 8:26:10pm

It's not ANTI-union to want the basic principles that apply to elections of any sort.

It's not ANTI-union to want to have the right to get a job in South Carolina. At Boeing.

Private sector unionization is a legitimate counterweight to the power of private employers, particularly before the era of legislated workers' rights. Public sector unions generally capture their counterparty negotiators, which leads to abuses, but that's another story.

The right to privacy is one of the rights that liberals, generally, also support. So it cannot exactly be called a conservative position.

224 freetoken  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 8:26:22pm

re: #217 Obdicut

Social conservatism in the US today is not conservative. It is radical.

Reactionary. Massively reactionary: revanchist, atavist, throwback, troglodyte,... and many more synonyms could be conjured. Wanting to turn the clock back to 1860 the current "conservative" movement in the US is desperately afraid of modernity.

225 windsagio  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 8:27:07pm

More on the 'Classic Conservative' thing, the name usually trotted out for that is William F. Buckley.

'nuff said.

226 lostlakehiker  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 8:27:11pm

re: #215 Lidane

Hell, let's start small. I'd love an explanation for how the conservative policy of forcing an ultrasound wand up a woman's vagina against her will is pro-liberty.

That may be a Republican position but it's in no way conservative. It's radical. It gives the State too much power.

227 windsagio  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 8:28:42pm

re: #222 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

I just think its not fair to Gay Japanese folks. They get enough crap as it is >>

also to girls that like gay porn.

228 laZardo  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 8:28:57pm

re: #225 windsagio

More on the 'Classic Conservative' thing, the name usually trotted out for that is William F. Buckley.

'nuff said.

Frank had a quote from him - apparently "classic conservative" means bigot lite.

In any event, what Americans known as "center-left" is generally regarded as conservative by the rest of the world anyway.

229 dell*nix  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 8:28:59pm

re: #224 freetoken

More like the 1660's.

230 Lidane  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 8:29:00pm

re: #226 lostlakehiker

That may be a Republican position but it's in no way conservative.

So the Republicans aren't conservatives, then?

I'm sure that's news to the GOP.

231 lostlakehiker  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 8:29:59pm

re: #230 Lidane

So the Republicans aren't conservatives, then?

I'm sure that's news to the GOP.

To the extent they want to force that on women, NO, they are not conservative.

Good grief. SMALL government is at the heart of conservatism. By any logical analysis.

232 palomino  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 8:30:12pm

re: #209 lostlakehiker

You have a point.
You don't.
You don't.
You don't
You don't.

You don't find anything "liberty denying" about opposition to abortion in all cases; nothing liberty denying about demonizing Muslims, mosques, illegal Hispanic immigrants; nothing liberty denying about making it harder for first-time voters, the poor, and minorities to actually, you know, vote?

233 Lidane  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 8:30:13pm

re: #223 lostlakehiker

More whining about unions when the vast majority of jobs in this country aren't unionized at all.

Do you have anything of merit or are you just going to keep going down this road?

234 Varek Raith  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 8:30:31pm

re: #223 lostlakehiker

It's not ANTI-union to want the basic principles that apply to elections of any sort.

But stripping them of collective bargaining is anti union.

It's not ANTI-union to want to have the right to get a job in South Carolina. At Boeing.

It is when Boeing did it as a purely retaliatory strike against the union.

Private sector unionization is a legitimate counterweight to the power of private employers, particularly before the era of legislated workers' rights. Public sector unions generally capture their counterparty negotiators, which leads to abuses, but that's another story.

More anti union nonsense.

The right to privacy is one of the rights that liberals, generally, also support. So it cannot exactly be called a conservative position.

But many in your party do not. See, gay rights and abortion. Also education.

235 dell*nix  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 8:30:54pm

re: #230 Lidane

More like the Radical Religious Reich. Just to Godwin the thread.

236 windsagio  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 8:31:15pm

re: #231 lostlakehiker

"I identify as conservative so I reserve to exclude all things I don't like from the term!"

237 windsagio  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 8:31:39pm

re: #235 dell*nix

the term 'crypo-fascist' really always does come to mind >>

238 Varek Raith  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 8:31:47pm

Good grief I messed up that post.
Too lazy to fix.
;)

239 Lidane  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 8:33:04pm

re: #231 lostlakehiker

Good grief. SMALL government is at the heart of conservatism. By any logical analysis.

Correction-- small government is at the heart of the MYTH of conservatism, not the reality. The reality is that the modern Republican party is just as much of a big government party as the Democrats are.

For all their issues and problem as a party, at least the Dems are honest about using government to achieve their goals.

240 Obdicut  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 8:33:13pm

re: #223 lostlakehiker

It's not ANTI-union to want the basic principles that apply to elections of any sort.

But you know that union elections are not like elections of other sorts. It's silly to compare a democratic election of a representative with a vote on whether or not to unionize. The situations aren't comparable.

Private sector unionization is a legitimate counterweight to the power of private employers, particularly before the era of legislated workers' rights. Public sector unions generally capture their counterparty negotiators, which leads to abuses, but that's another story.

Yes. And in order for unions to be anywhere near the level of bargaining power of the companies, the laws need to provide for that. Union-busting is really easy if there aren't protections for union organizing, as we've seen by the constant eroding of union power and union membership. Most union-busting activities in the US turn out successful in the end. The anti-union side is winning.

The right to privacy is one of the rights that liberals, generally, also support. So it cannot exactly be called a conservative position.

Um, okay. If you don't want to claim the idea of right to privacy as a conservative position, fine. I'm not sure what basis you are arguing for a secret ballot on other than some sort of right to privacy, though; can you explain?

241 darthstar  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 8:34:18pm

Greetings from Wingnuttistan...visiting the folks...there's a pre-addressed and pre-stamped envelope for the "Coalition to Protect American Sovereignty" that my parents already sealed with a donation check.

My folks are a lost cause.

242 windsagio  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 8:34:34pm

re: #239 Lidane

Correction-- small government is at the heart of the MYTH of conservatism, not the reality. The reality is that the modern Republican party is just as much of a big government party as the Democrats are.

For all their issues and problem as a party, at least the Dems are honest about using government to achieve their goals.

at risk of rude, quoted in full for emphasis. Especially imporant point bolded.

243 jaunte  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 8:35:14pm

re: #234 Varek Raith

It's not ANTI-union to want to have the right to get a job in South Carolina. At Boeing.

It is when Boeing did it as a purely retaliatory strike against the union.

Which is in fact the basis for the NLRB action against Boeing.

244 prairiefire  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 8:35:33pm

re: #127 Stanley Sea

And at that same moment every woman who had a shred of self_respect, who has competed with the dudes in the office & done well, only to find out they make a lot more, well we cringed. Because at that moment brains didn't count for female candidates, winks did.

Disgusting.

I can't STAND women who trade on their sexuality in the work place. It makes me furious.
On the other hand, a big smile can open a few doors (I was in sales).

245 Varek Raith  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 8:36:27pm

re: #244 prairiefire

I can't STAND women who trade on their sexuality in the work place. It makes me furious.
On the other hand, a big smile can open a few doors (I was in sales).

As does kicking them.
/

246 laZardo  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 8:37:19pm

re: #241 darthstar

Greetings from Wingnuttistan...visiting the folks...there's a pre-addressed and pre-stamped envelope for the "Coalition to Protect American Sovereignty" that my parents already sealed with a donation check.

My folks are a lost cause.

You're telling me. Both my parents and the aunt I'm staying with watch FNC regularly.

At least my parents accept the facts on AGW. My aunt, not so much.

247 windsagio  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 8:37:26pm

re: #244 prairiefire

well seriously, if you're a woman in sales and don't play a bit of that game you're crippling yourself to an insane degree.

Sales is a dirty dirty business sometims ><

248 darthstar  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 8:38:01pm
249 Varek Raith  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 8:38:20pm

re: #248 darthstar

Are we not dogs?

*Smack*

250 darthstar  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 8:38:40pm

re: #246 laZardo

You're telling me. Both my parents and the aunt I'm staying with watch FNC regularly.

At least my parents accept the facts on AGW. My aunt, not so much.

Mine still deny AGW too.

251 Lidane  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 8:39:03pm

re: #248 darthstar

Are we not dogs?

Ha! Cute.

252 prairiefire  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 8:39:29pm

re: #171 Stanley Sea

And I'm trying hard now to save this world.

Bless you, Stanley.

253 HappyWarrior  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 8:39:47pm

I've seen nothing about the modern Republican party that suggests in any way that they are small government. I agree with Lidane. At least the Dems are honest. The Republicans will rant and bitch about government to get elected to high office and then suggest building a massive fence on the border, building more prisons, executing people, regulating a woman's right to choose, telling gay couples they can't marry because of religion. I agree conservatism means smaller government but those who call themselves conservatives by and large in this country are just as big government if not more than those they whine about. Yes, you do have a right not to join a union but these people often forget that you also should have the right to join one. It cuts both ways.

254 palomino  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 8:39:58pm

re: #219 Lidane

That's because social conservatism IS the GOP. That's what the party has become at its very core.

Oh sure, they still faithfully trot out all the bullshit about lower taxes, smaller government and individual liberty, but that's just to keep fooling the people who vote for them. It's not sincere.

No question, and yet the few moderate Republicans remaining keep deluding themselves into thinking the party will soon call a truce on the culture war. They can't call such a truce, the culture war keeps the party going.

It's absurd to think that Schwarzenegger type moderates will soon be a big voice in the gop. The culture war animates the GOP/TP, which didn't give a shit about small govt. until they lost the 2008 election to a black guy.

255 darthstar  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 8:40:21pm

re: #171 Stanley Sea

And I'm trying hard now to save this world.

Why THIS world? Seriously.

256 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 8:40:55pm

re: #255 darthstar

Why THIS world? Seriously.

Pluto could have used your help.

257 lostlakehiker  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 8:40:55pm

re: #232 palomino

You don't find anything "liberty denying" about opposition to abortion in all cases; nothing liberty denying about demonizing Muslims, mosques, illegal Hispanic immigrants; nothing liberty denying about making it harder for first-time voters, the poor, and minorities to actually, you know, vote?

I don't find anything CONSERVATIVE about trying to forbid all abortion. I don't find anything CONSERVATIVE about demonizing Muslims, or in any way abrogating their, or others', freedmo of religion.

Controlling and limiting illegal immigration does fit as part of the conservative agenda. Would Democrats sign off on the illegal immigration to the U.S. of, say, 100 million Chinese? No. So Democrats, too, don't want unlimited immigration. They simply want immigrants who can be counted upon to vote their way. It's not a matter of principle on either side. It's a matter of advantage.

Barriers to voting TWICE make sense to conservatives. We have nothing against somebody voting for the FIRST time. A snark, but yeah, some of the rules proposed by some Republicans do fail to make it easy enough to get proper ID. And they do seem kind of cheesy. And cheesy cheating isn't a conservative position. People will do it, though, and try to claim the mantel.

258 Kragar  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 8:41:10pm

re: #255 darthstar

Why THIS world? Seriously.

You got another one you've been holding out on us about?

259 HappyWarrior  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 8:41:19pm

re: #254 palomino

No question, and yet the few moderate Republicans remaining keep deluding themselves into thinking the party will soon call a truce on the culture war. They can't call such a truce, the culture war keeps the party going.

It's absurd to think that Schwarzenegger type moderates will soon be a big voice in the gop. The culture war animates the GOP/TP, which didn't give a shit about small govt. until they lost the 2008 election to a black guy.

Yep "deficits don't matter", hint it wasn't Biden who said that. Of course when it's pointed out that Cheney said it, you get some no true Scotsman crap. Whenever conservatives fuck up, it's because they weren't really conservatives. Bunch of horsecrap.

260 palomino  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 8:41:47pm

re: #248 darthstar

Are we not dogs?

NO, We are Devo! Duty now for the future!

261 Varek Raith  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 8:42:02pm

re: #255 darthstar

Why THIS world? Seriously.

Image: death-star-7.jpg
World saved.
Next!

262 windsagio  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 8:42:25pm

re: #257 lostlakehiker

seriously though, you have to admit that what people commonly think of as 'conservative' includes almost all the things you're denying, right?

263 jaunte  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 8:42:37pm

re: #257 lostlakehiker

I don't find anything CONSERVATIVE about trying to forbid all abortion. I don't find anything CONSERVATIVE about demonizing Muslims, or in any way abrogating their, or others', freedmo of religion.

I agree with you on that, but the people who are calling themselves conservatives who are trying to get elected these days don't.

264 darthstar  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 8:42:53pm

re: #261 Varek Raith

Image: death-star-7.jpg
World saved.
Next!

Not the BLUE beam!

265 prairiefire  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 8:43:15pm

Some years back, our KC Convention's Bureau employed one of the most gorgeous, knock out women our town has. From what I could tell, her job was to be introduced, shake hands, and then smile at the prospective client. Seriously beautiful.

266 Obdicut  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 8:43:27pm

re: #257 lostlakehiker

Would Democrats sign off on the illegal immigration to the U.S. of, say, 100 million Chinese? No. So Democrats, too, don't want unlimited immigration. They simply want immigrants who can be counted upon to vote their way.

Um. What? Do you think Democrats would want 100 Million Mexican immigrants, or even 100 million from Democratlandia?

267 Varek Raith  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 8:44:06pm

re: #257 lostlakehiker

STRAWMAN AWAY!

268 windsagio  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 8:44:30pm

re: #266 Obdicut

I'm a radical I admit, but I still think a true North American Union would be a pretty good idea in the long run :p

269 Varek Raith  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 8:45:32pm

re: #268 windsagio

I'm a radical I admit, but I still think a true North American Union would be a pretty good idea in the long run :p

Canada is pretty much the US anyways.
/

270 jaunte  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 8:45:42pm

re: #268 windsagio

Was that you with the Cascadia flag earlier?

271 palomino  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 8:45:50pm

re: #257 lostlakehiker

I don't find anything CONSERVATIVE about trying to forbid all abortion. I don't find anything CONSERVATIVE about demonizing Muslims, or in any way abrogating their, or others', freedmo of religion.

Controlling and limiting illegal immigration does fit as part of the conservative agenda. Would Democrats sign off on the illegal immigration to the U.S. of, say, 100 million Chinese? No. So Democrats, too, don't want unlimited immigration. They simply want immigrants who can be counted upon to vote their way. It's not a matter of principle on either side. It's a matter of advantage.

Barriers to voting TWICE make sense to conservatives. We have nothing against somebody voting for the FIRST time. A snark, but yeah, some of the rules proposed by some Republicans do fail to make it easy enough to get proper ID. And they do seem kind of cheesy. And cheesy cheating isn't a conservative position. People will do it, though, and try to claim the mantel.

You're admitting that a lot of Republican positions don't really qualify as conservative. Thus what you seem to be describing is something that doesn't exist: a "truly" conservative party in the US.

272 Obdicut  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 8:46:14pm

re: #268 windsagio

That'd be a rather long run. But who cares? That's nowhere within spitting distance of reality.

273 HappyWarrior  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 8:46:26pm

re: #268 windsagio

I'm a radical I admit, but I still think a true North American Union would be a pretty good idea in the long run :p

I have to admit- traveling through Europe was a lot easier knowing that most of those countries use the same currency.

274 lostlakehiker  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 8:46:51pm

re: #240 Obdicut

But you know that union elections are not like elections of other sorts. It's silly to compare a democratic election of a representative with a vote on whether or not to unionize. The situations aren't comparable.

Yes. And in order for unions to be anywhere near the level of bargaining power of the companies, the laws need to provide for that. Union-busting is really easy if there aren't protections for union organizing, as we've seen by the constant eroding of union power and union membership. Most union-busting activities in the US turn out successful in the end. The anti-union side is winning.

Um, okay. If you don't want to claim the idea of right to privacy as a conservative position, fine. I'm not sure what basis you are arguing for a secret ballot on other than some sort of right to privacy, though; can you explain?

Without a secret ballot, the man who votes against unionization has lost his privacy. He's also, maybe, in for some unpleasantness if word gets around.

The whole point of "card check" is to set up sham elections where people vote "yes" to avoid trouble, not because they really want, in their private heart of hearts, to join.

Unions lose membership because workers, when free to reject them, often freely choose NO. It's just a bad deal.

275 reine.de.tout  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 8:48:09pm

re: #271 palomino

You're admitting that a lot of Republican positions don't really qualify as conservative. Thus what you seem to be describing is something that doesn't exist: a "truly" conservative party in the US.

Many of the conservatives still here, are here because of disillusionment with the Republican party and platform.

I'm surprised folks don't seem to understand that.

276 windsagio  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 8:48:11pm

re: #270 jaunte

It wasn't!

I was the one who said it was 'rad' tho'.

Another thing that would be good for some of us that isn't within remote range of reality :p

re: #272 Obdicut

'course not! It'd arguably be more just tho', and certainly would help even out the fucked upness of our politics (altho it might replace it with another problem)

277 Kragar  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 8:48:23pm

Bachmann: U.S. could lose its ‘superpower’ status

Yeah, and gutting our education system, deregulating our economy so we resemble a 3rd world banana republic and treating healthcare as a cross between voodoo and a luxury item will sure go a long way to keeping America great.

U S ...umm.. A, right?

278 prairiefire  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 8:48:34pm

re: #271 palomino

You're admitting that a lot of Republican positions don't really qualify as conservative. Thus what you seem to be describing is something that doesn't exist: a "truly" conservative party in the US.

The three legged stool has become pretty schizoid.

279 Obdicut  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 8:49:04pm

re: #274 lostlakehiker

Without a secret ballot, the man who votes against unionization has lost his privacy.

Yes. But you just argued the right to privacy isn't actually a conservative issue. So.. how are you arguing that a secret ballot is a conservative issue, f the right to privacy isn't?

He's also, maybe, in for some unpleasantness if word gets around.

Are you intentionally ignoring the other side of the coin-- the coercion that employers use against unionizing employees?

The whole point of "card check" is to set up sham elections where people vote "yes" to avoid trouble, not because they really want, in their private heart of hearts, to join.

Oh, I'm sorry, I forgot you were a fucking psychic.

Unions lose membership because workers, when free to reject them, often freely choose NO. It's just a bad deal.

Ah for fuck's sake.

Forget it.

Goodnight.

280 lostlakehiker  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 8:49:14pm

re: #263 jaunte

I agree with you on that, but the people who are calling themselves conservatives who are trying to get elected these days don't.

And I agree with you, on that.

281 windsagio  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 8:49:30pm

re: #275 reine.de.tout

I think the problem is more the intense lengths people will go to protect their self-identification.

If the term 'conervative' has a ton of connections you don't like in the US, maybe you're not really 'conservative'.

282 William Barnett-Lewis  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 8:50:13pm

re: #257 lostlakehiker

Dude, if all the "illegal" immigrants were coming from white Europe, the TP/GOP wouldn't care one whit. Go back about 25 years when the #1 source of illegals was Ireland for example.

These are brown people who mostly don't go to protestant churches. Therefore we see the same crap we have see historically when large numbers of "different" people come in: Irish, Chinese, Italians, Jews, Germans, etc. The same Know Nothings wrapped up in Faux New lies.

283 HappyWarrior  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 8:50:25pm

re: #277 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Bachmann: U.S. could lose its ‘superpower’ status

Yeah, and gutting our education system, deregulating our economy so we resemble a 3rd world banana republic and treating healthcare as a cross between voodoo and a luxury item will sure go a long way to keeping America great.

U S ...umm.. A, right?

If she's so worried about that then maybe she shouldn't be a tool and support making cuts to public education. I know public education isn't perfect but far too many Republicans are oblivious to the fact that a huge majority of American school children attend those. I am not anti private school but we need to improve our public schools not cut education funding.

284 windsagio  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 8:50:28pm

re: #279 Obdicut

Ah for fuck's sake.

Forget it.

Goodnight.

See? Sometimes its just not worth arguing anymore and you just have to say 'done!'

285 Obdicut  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 8:51:02pm

re: #275 reine.de.tout

Many of the conservatives still here, are here because of disillusionment with the Republican party and platform.

I'm surprised folks don't seem to understand that.

It's just that the same word can be used for both groups. Language is sloppy. The radicals have tainted the word, which sucks.

I have a lot of respect for the conservatives who have rejected the GOP as its radicalized, even if I still disagree with them on some issues.

286 Obdicut  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 8:51:46pm

re: #284 windsagio

That's nice.

287 lostlakehiker  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 8:52:09pm

re: #279 Obdicut

Yes. But you just argued the right to privacy isn't actually a conservative issue. So.. how are you arguing that a secret ballot is a conservative issue, f the right to privacy isn't?

Are you intentionally ignoring the other side of the coin-- the coercion that employers use against unionizing employees?

Oh, I'm sorry, I forgot you were a fucking psychic.

Ah for fuck's sake.

Forget it.

Goodnight.

Aw, WHAT coercion? Like, the employers are gonna know how the worker voted? Liberals support privacy EXCEPT for workers who might not want to join a union.

288 windsagio  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 8:53:32pm

re: #286 Obdicut

salty!

289 freetoken  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 8:53:42pm

re: #277 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

It's all about status, pecking order, and pride for that bunch.

290 HappyWarrior  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 8:53:58pm

re: #282 wlewisiii

Dude, if all the "illegal" immigrants were coming from white Europe, the TP/GOP wouldn't care one whit. Go back about 25 years when the #1 source of illegals was Ireland for example.

These are brown people who mostly don't go to protestant churches. Therefore we see the same crap we have see historically when large numbers of "different" people come in: Irish, Chinese, Italians, Jews, Germans, etc. The same Know Nothings wrapped up in Faux New lies.

I think you're on to something there. How often do we hear Republican candidates bemoan about how America is changing? I still cringe to this day about how my former senator, George Allen called the son of Indian immigrants a "macaca". Of course the funny thing was this guy was more of a Virginian than Allen was as he had attended our public schools and was attending one of our universities at the time but Allen chose to play to the crowd's fear of the outsider. Demographics are changing in this country and the right as they did in the past with Catholics first from Ireland and Germany, then later those from Eastern Europe and Italy, and Jews from Eastern Europe are reacting with a xenophobic fervor.

291 Varek Raith  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 8:54:09pm

re: #287 lostlakehiker

See Boeing.
The union threatened a strike.
Boeing tried to move the plant to SC.
That's illegal.

292 lostlakehiker  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 8:55:28pm

re: #282 wlewisiii

Dude, if all the "illegal" immigrants were coming from white Europe, the TP/GOP wouldn't care one whit. Go back about 25 years when the #1 source of illegals was Ireland for example.

These are brown people who mostly don't go to protestant churches. Therefore we see the same crap we have see historically when large numbers of "different" people come in: Irish, Chinese, Italians, Jews, Germans, etc. The same Know Nothings wrapped up in Faux New lies.

But the DEMOCRATS would then object. They want THEIR immigrants, not others. It's not a matter of principle.

293 Varek Raith  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 8:55:42pm

Stripping collective bargaining rights is pro liberty!
/

294 palomino  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 8:56:51pm

re: #275 reine.de.tout

Many of the conservatives still here, are here because of disillusionment with the Republican party and platform.

I'm surprised folks don't seem to understand that.

Oh, I fully understand that. My point is that if you're so disillusioned with the gop's move to the far right, it's time to give up on them...because the tiny fraction of moderates remaining in the party have virtually no sway. The Rockefeller Republicans of yore aren't coming back. It's a southern dominated reactionary party now.

Your choices: become an independent, or even OMG a Democrat (the party that more closely embodies most of what the Western world considers conservative). Or you can cling to the slim hope that the gop regains some moderate voices.

NONE, exactly zero, of the GOP prez candidates even call themselves moderates on any major issues. Instead, they trip all over themselves trying to claim the mantle of "true conservative", which today just means farthest to the right.

295 allegro  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 8:57:39pm

re: #292 lostlakehiker

But the DEMOCRATS would then object. They want THEIR immigrants, not others. It's not a matter of principle.

Which immigrants would be objectionable to Democrats?

296 windsagio  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 8:57:43pm

re: #292 lostlakehiker

But the DEMOCRATS would then object. They want THEIR immigrants, not others. It's not a matter of principle.

MMHMM. Because europe is massively conservative and would be all GO GOP!

(Well Vlaams Belang members probably would)

297 lostlakehiker  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 8:58:02pm

re: #291 Varek Raith

See Boeing.
The union threatened a strike.
Boeing tried to move the plant to SC.
That's illegal.

Wrong. The company tried to set up a NEW plant, in SC. While MAINTAINING the other plant and not firing anybody or reducing anybody's work. That's perfectly legal. The Obama administration is not following the law on this one.

298 Varek Raith  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 8:58:14pm

re: #292 lostlakehiker

FIRE FLAILS, FULL SPREAD!

299 windsagio  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 8:58:30pm

re: #296 windsagio

maybe BNP.

300 FemNaziBitch  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 9:00:39pm

re: #212 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Sorry, Cthulhu can't run anymore even since he got caught in that Japanese porn scandal.

with a rent boy . .

(I saw that article)

/:)

301 HappyWarrior  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 9:01:07pm

re: #295 allegro

Which immigrants would be objectionable to Democrats?

I've never seen liberal democrats object to immigrants. The truth of the matter is immigrants and their descendants align with parties that respect them. I know for a fact that my family was Democratic early on due to the Know Nothing type attitudes of the Republicans in the part of the country they emigrated to. The Republicans wouldn't be seen as bigots towards immigrants if they didn't go around making every illegal immigrant out to be a murderer or opposing things like the Dream Act. They've become more like Jan Brewer/Tom Tancredo than 2006 John McCain/George W. Bush.

302 Varek Raith  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 9:01:24pm

At issue is Boeing's fractious relationship with Local 751 of the International Assn. of Machinists and Aerospace Workers, which represents employees at Boeing's plants around Seattle and Portland, Ore. The union has gone on strike five times since 1975, most recently in 2008. Although the company and the union settled their differences and agreed to a four-year contract later that year, in 2009 Boeing announced that it would create a second production line for its new 787 Dreamliner in North Charleston, S.C., a right-to-work state, instead of at the Puget Sound plants that were already building the plane.

The machinists union protested to the NLRB, and in April the board's acting general counsel filed a complaint against Boeing. According to the complaint, company executives explicitly told investors, the media and employees that they put the new line in South Carolina specifically because of the machinists' work stoppages. These statements carried an implicit threat, the NLRB complaint alleged, that employees who exercised their legal right to strike would lose work.

Federal law doesn't stop Boeing from putting production lines where labor costs are lower. And the company's defenders say that Boeing's expansion in South Carolina hasn't cost machinists jobs in the Puget Sound region; to the contrary, the company has added more than 2,000 jobs there. Nevertheless, the complaint raises a valid issue of whether the comments by Boeing executives crossed the line from being transparent about their motives to trying to intimidate workers to avert future strikes and hold down labor costs. That kind of intimidation is illegal.

That issue is now before an NLRB administrative law judge. Even if the judge rules against Boeing, though, the remedy sought by the complaint — moving the second production and supply lines for the Dreamliner back to Washington and Oregon — would be too draconian a response. Local 751 can be assured of its right to strike after its contract expires next year without dictating where Boeing expands its operations. Otherwise, companies may be reluctant to locate in union-friendly states for fear of being trapped there.

303 FemNaziBitch  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 9:01:46pm

re: #218 windsagio

Classic conservatives are the Unicorn of politics.

They're beautiful and pure and wonderful, but they're unfortunately also mythical.

Classical Liberalism -- Anyone remember that?

304 lostlakehiker  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 9:03:11pm

re: #295 allegro

Which immigrants would be objectionable to Democrats?

Europeans and Chinese and subcontinent Indians. The immigration laws are written with a view to keeping out people who would come on work skills, while admitting family reunification cases. That works to the disadvantage of all those groups, hence, the purpose of the law, not its declared purpose but its real purpose, is just that.

305 palomino  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 9:03:31pm

re: #292 lostlakehiker

But the DEMOCRATS would then object. They want THEIR immigrants, not others. It's not a matter of principle.

Know-nothing populist reactionaries have always been anti-immigrant; the TP is just the latest iteration.

This isn't a question of one party's immigrants vs. the other's. Most immigrants, regardless of country of origin, are more likely to vote Dem; one big reason: they see the general anti-immigrant stance (as well as the gop's monochromatic membership) and compare it to what the Dems say on the issue.

306 laZardo  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 9:04:21pm

re: #302 Varek Raith

tl;dr whoever wins, we lose?

307 lostlakehiker  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 9:04:44pm

re: #305 palomino

Know-nothing populist reactionaries have always been anti-immigrant; the TP is just the latest iteration.

This isn't a question of one party's immigrants vs. the other's. Most immigrants, regardless of country of origin, are more likely to vote Dem; one big reason: they see the general anti-immigrant stance (as well as the gop's monochromatic membership) and compare it to what the Dems say on the issue.

IF Democrats were OK with those immigrants, they wouldn't keep such tight limits on H1B visas and so on.

308 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 9:04:50pm

re: #4 laZardo

Don't forget Governor Ventura.

Yeah but at least Jesse Ventura served our nation with honor in the SEALs. That is worth a small bit.

309 Varek Raith  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 9:04:57pm

I need to make some coffee.
BBIAB.

310 HappyWarrior  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 9:05:01pm

Also a big reason why the Republicans did well with Vietnamese immigrants and their descendants is because during the Ford years, President Ford showed he wanted to give the people in that community a chance to Americanize. Nowadays I hear about Republican candidates acting like speaking a foreign language in this country is some horrible thing. If Republicans were more like Bush II/Ford/2006 McCain they wouldn't have this image as being hostile to immigrants but they've made their own bed on it by acting increasingly hostile to immigrants.

311 allegro  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 9:05:17pm

re: #304 lostlakehiker

Europeans and Chinese and subcontinent Indians. The immigration laws are written with a view to keeping out people who would come on work skills, while admitting family reunification cases. That works to the disadvantage of all those groups, hence, the purpose of the law, not its declared purpose but its real purpose, is just that.

How is that a demonstration of Democrats not wanting them here?

312 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 9:06:32pm

re: #311 allegro

How is that a demonstration of Democrats not wanting them here?

The Dems union base does not want others taking their jobs. But I don't favor more H1B visas either. We need to produce more domestic talent.

313 allegro  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 9:06:58pm

re: #307 lostlakehiker

IF Democrats were OK with those immigrants, they wouldn't keep such tight limits on H1B visas and so on.

Are these limits something new? Like since 2009?

314 HappyWarrior  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 9:07:05pm

Remind me which party has a popular candidate among its grassroots that supports bringing back the immigration quotas that limited immigrants from South Asia? Bachmann herself thinks limiting immigration based on place of origin was a good policy. That's horrible policy.

315 FemNaziBitch  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 9:07:21pm

re: #309 Varek Raith

I need to make some coffee.
BBIAB.

Got it all ready for you: enjoy!

316 darthstar  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 9:07:37pm

re: #303 ggt

Classical Liberalism -- Anyone remember that?

Limited Government! Wait...what?

317 FemNaziBitch  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 9:08:44pm

BTW, "fark" is not a word in Words with Friends and Strangers.

318 darthstar  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 9:08:55pm

re: #312 Dark_Falcon

The Dems union base does not want others taking their jobs. But I don't favor more H1B visas either. We need to produce more domestic talent WITHOUT HAVING TO PAY FOR IT WITH TAXES OR PUBLIC EDUCATION.

Exactly.

319 allegro  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 9:09:54pm

re: #312 Dark_Falcon

The Dems union base does not want others taking their jobs. But I don't favor more H1B visas either. We need to produce more domestic talent.

I agree that it is unwise to allow in more immigrants than can be supported. I'm just trying to figure out how immigration limits are a Democratic thing.

320 palomino  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 9:10:20pm

re: #307 lostlakehiker

IF Democrats were OK with those immigrants, they wouldn't keep such tight limits on H1B visas and so on.

Because Dems are worried that East and South Asians will suddenly start voting overwhelmingly gop? Have you checked out the demographic breakdowns in recent pres. elections?

321 windsagio  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 9:11:24pm

re: #303 ggt

Classical Liberalism -- Anyone remember that?

I now have a headache. Thanks!

322 prairiefire  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 9:13:41pm

re: #304 lostlakehiker

Europeans and Chinese and subcontinent Indians. The immigration laws are written with a view to keeping out people who would come on work skills, while admitting family reunification cases. That works to the disadvantage of all those groups, hence, the purpose of the law, not its declared purpose but its real purpose, is just that.

OMG, do you know how many of those countries have immigrants here, right here right now? Our own population can't keep up with supplying the demand for the work skills those folks provide.
President Clinton's administration presided over the largest sustained wave of immigrants in american history:[Link: www.fairus.org...]

323 jaunte  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 9:13:50pm

re: #320 palomino

Center for Immigration Studies:

Feb. 2010: Although high immigration may work against Democratic policy goals, such as raising wages for the poor and protecting the environment, it does improve Democratic electoral prospects. In contrast, immigration may help Republican business interests hold down wages, but it also undermines the party’s political fortunes. Future levels of immigration are likely to be a key determinant of Republicans’ political prospects moving forward.[Link: www.cis.org...]

324 darthstar  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 9:14:54pm

We hire a fixed amount of H1B visa candidates every year. It doesn't go up by much because, as you might guess, each of those people immediately applies for a green card (sponsored and legally represented by their place of employment)...I know this because, in the last year, I'm two for two in this regard. H1Bs are not the reason Americans aren't getting hired. Companies learning to survive on a reduced workforce and realizing they can still make a profit is.

325 reine.de.tout  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 9:15:00pm

re: #294 palomino

Oh, I fully understand that. My point is that if you're so disillusioned with the gop's move to the far right, it's time to give up on them...because the tiny fraction of moderates remaining in the party have virtually no sway. The Rockefeller Republicans of yore aren't coming back. It's a southern dominated reactionary party now.

Your choices: become an independent, or even OMG a Democrat (the party that more closely embodies most of what the Western world considers conservative). Or you can cling to the slim hope that the gop regains some moderate voices.

NONE, exactly zero, of the GOP prez candidates even call themselves moderates on any major issues. Instead, they trip all over themselves trying to claim the mantle of "true conservative", which today just means farthest to the right.

Well, I am registered to vote, no party affiliation. It doesn't mean I'm no longer conservative. It does mean I do not wish to be associated with the Rep party. I don't know what else to do. An assumption that because we identify as 'conservative', somehow means we're Republicans, is just wrong.

326 Dancing along the light of day  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 9:15:54pm

re: #302 Varek Raith

Thank you for posting that.

327 FemNaziBitch  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 9:15:57pm

re: #322 prairiefire

OMG, do you know how many of those countries have immigrants here, right here right now? Our own population can't keep up with supplying the demand for the work skills those folks provide.
President Clinton's administration presided over the largest sustained wave of immigrants in american history:[Link: www.fairus.org...]

I don't understand why we changed immigration policies. It seems to make more sense to attract people with the work skills we need over the concept of reunifing families. I can see bringing Grandma's if there is no one in the "home" country to help them, but other than that, I don't get it.

328 windsagio  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 9:16:13pm

interestingly immigration is the main thing saving the US from the terrible 'aging population' problem.

329 laZardo  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 9:16:42pm

re: #325 reine.de.tout

Here in Washington, there is no party registration when registering. O: Not sure what happens after though.

330 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 9:17:31pm

re: #329 laZardo

Here in Washington, there is no party registration when registering. O: Not sure what happens after though.

I grew up in Washington. If the law is the same, you can vote any way you choose in the primaries.

Down here in Oregon, you must vote for a candidate of your party in the primary. In the general you are free to vote as you choose.

331 reine.de.tout  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 9:17:42pm

re: #303 ggt

Classical Liberalism -- Anyone remember that?

Yep.

332 Lidane  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 9:18:35pm

re: #303 ggt

Classical Liberalism -- Anyone remember that?

Yeah. It's the mantle that Luap Nor keeps trying to claim.

333 windsagio  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 9:19:16pm

re: #329 laZardo

Here in Washington, there is no party registration when registering. O: Not sure what happens after though.

if you don't register to a particular party, you don't get to take part in the primary... at all.

It doesn't really matter though because the WA electoral college votes are Entirely (GOP) or mostly (dem) determined by the caucuses.

334 Varek Raith  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 9:19:21pm

COFFEE!

335 William Barnett-Lewis  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 9:19:30pm

re: #328 windsagio

interestingly immigration is the main thing saving the US from the terrible 'aging population' problem.

butbutbut they're DIFFERENT!!11ty!

(I'd wingnut that if I could only ever get it to work)

336 HappyWarrior  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 9:19:58pm

Virginia is open primary. I like that over closed primary. I am not one to vote in the Republican primaries to piss in the pot but it would be nice to influence a primary to prevent a really nutty candidate from getting the nomination or in some peverse way getting a really nutty candidate the nomination.

337 windsagio  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 9:20:26pm

re: #335 wlewisiii

I often wonder if these anti-immigration aging boomers realize that Social security would totally collapse without the constant influx of people.

338 Varek Raith  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 9:21:06pm

Hey D_F, did you see this awesomeness?
Image: deathstarpumpkin1.jpg

339 palomino  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 9:21:07pm

re: #325 reine.de.tout

Well, I am registered to vote, no party affiliation. It doesn't mean I'm no longer conservative. It does mean I do not wish to be associated with the Rep party. I don't know what else to do. An assumption that because we identify as 'conservative', somehow means we're Republicans, is just wrong.

The sad fact is that the word "conservative" (like the word "liberal") has been perverted in common parlance.

The gop is the self-identified conservative party, so you'll just have to deal with the unfair fact that people will assume you're Republican if you say you're conservative. You're right that the two aren't the same; indeed, a fair number of the people who identify as conservative vote Democrat, especially among nonwhites (OTOH, very few who identify as liberal vote Republican, because the party is more monolithic now.)

340 William Barnett-Lewis  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 9:21:29pm

re: #332 Lidane

Yeah. It's the mantle that Luap Nor keeps trying to claim.

And that is even more laughable than calling the TP/GOP conservative.

Gah, Mr. Smith and Mr. Burke would be horrified by the trash spewed in their names...

341 Romantic Heretic  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 9:21:34pm

re: #205 lostlakehiker

Well, then, I have not exhausted the list of conservative positions that are pro-liberty. I've just given a sampling.

In my opinion when most people talk about liberty they're really talking about power. Power for themselves and for those who believe as they do.

The rest of the world can burn as far as they're concerned.

342 FemNaziBitch  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 9:22:14pm

re: #334 Varek Raith

COFFEE!

is a good thing!

But, why do the undead need coffee?

343 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 9:23:03pm

Check out National Review's front page for some seriously insane signs from the "Occupy Wall Street" crowd. Hey, if showing nutty signs found at Tea Party rallies is fair game, so is this.

344 Varek Raith  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 9:23:11pm

re: #342 ggt

is a good thing!

But, why do the undead need coffee?

So my necromancy has some flaws.
:P

345 Lidane  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 9:23:24pm

re: #336 HappyWarrior

I'd consider voting for Huntsman in the Texas primary just to throw a vote at the least objectionable candidate in a primary field of total fail.

Thing is, I'm pretty sure he'll be out of the race long before then.

346 William Barnett-Lewis  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 9:23:37pm

re: #337 windsagio

I often wonder if these anti-immigration aging boomers realize that Social security would totally collapse without the constant influx of people.

Well only under current rules. Changing things so that we keep paying in above the current limits (say up to 5 or 10 million annually) would do even more to fix the problem.

347 windsagio  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 9:24:05pm

re: #336 HappyWarrior

Virginia is open primary. I like that over closed primary. I am not one to vote in the Republican primaries to piss in the pot but it would be nice to influence a primary to prevent a really nutty candidate from getting the nomination or in some peverse way getting a really nutty candidate the nomination.

WA used to be open primary, but the major parties came together to shut it down... sued the state, the bastards.

348 HappyWarrior  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 9:24:12pm

re: #340 wlewisiii

And that is even more laughable than calling the TP/GOP conservative.

Gah, Mr. Smith and Mr. Burke would be horrified by the trash spewed in their names...

Is it just me or could Burke and Smith be called liberals? Certainly their ideas aren't liberal now but at their inception I would say they were very radical. Smith's theories on economics were a radical departure from mercantilsm for example and Burke supported the American revolutionaries and sympathized with the Irish homerule movement. But I agree with you. These guys were smart guys even if you don't agree with their philosophies 100%. Those who claim to be their heirs seem to be a bunch of know nothing jerks.

349 Lidane  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 9:24:20pm

re: #343 Dark_Falcon

National Review is behind the times. KT's been posting about all that for days now.

350 windsagio  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 9:24:34pm

re: #343 Dark_Falcon

Check out National Review's front page for some seriously insane signs from the "Occupy Wall Street" crowd. Hey, if showing nutty signs found at Tea Party rallies is fair game, so is this.

both are fun distractions from the actual message of the groups.

Nice pre-emptive Tu Quoque hto'

351 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 9:24:44pm

re: #338 Varek Raith

Hey D_F, did you see this awesomeness?
Image: deathstarpumpkin1.jpg

Nice. Just make sure your TIEx1 Advanced miniature is ready in case we have any problems with tiny Rebel X-Wings.

/Stay on Target!

352 FemNaziBitch  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 9:25:34pm

re: #343 Dark_Falcon

Check out National Review's front page for some seriously insane signs from the "Occupy Wall Street" crowd. Hey, if showing nutty signs found at Tea Party rallies is fair game, so is this.

I don't understand the "End the Fed" meme? It seems they are playing to Luaps little paws.

353 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 9:25:52pm

re: #349 Lidane

National Review is behind the times. KT's been posting about all that for days now.

I know. But I thought it worth showing. It's important and so I thought it worthy of the link.

354 darthstar  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 9:26:00pm

re: #338 Varek Raith

Hey D_F, did you see this awesomeness?
Image: deathstarpumpkin1.jpg

Want.

355 windsagio  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 9:26:36pm

re: #353 Dark_Falcon

except, seriously, its not important. Its just a convenient way to discredit something you don't like.

356 Lidane  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 9:26:44pm

re: #352 ggt

I don't understand the "End the Fed" meme? It seems they are playing to Luaps little paws.

That's because there are a lot of Paulbots at the OWS rallies. Truthers, Paulbots, Alex Jones fanboys....it's all part of the same crowd.

357 FemNaziBitch  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 9:27:44pm

re: #355 windsagio

except, seriously, its not important. Its just a convenient way to discredit something you don't like.

Showing both sides is not a bad thing.

358 jaunte  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 9:27:45pm

re: #303 ggt

The reference to Hobhouse (Just Consent) in that wiki is interesting.
This is from a Google books reference:
Image: Screen_shot_2011-10-07_at_11.23.16_PM.png

[Link: www.amazon.com...]

359 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 9:28:14pm

re: #355 windsagio

except, seriously, its not important. Its just a convenient way to discredit something you don't like.

Yes, it is important. When a movement has crazies at its core, that is important.

360 darthstar  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 9:28:35pm

re: #343 Dark_Falcon

Check out National Review's front page for some seriously insane signs from the "Occupy Wall Street" crowd. Hey, if showing nutty signs found at Tea Party rallies is fair game, so is this.

Okay the "Bank's [sic] got bailed out..." sign has a misplaced apostrophe, and there's one comparing Wall St. to Hitler...but most of them seem pretty mild...what's getting your panties in a twist?

361 windsagio  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 9:29:15pm

re: #357 ggt

Showing both sides is not a bad thing.

I'm not sure how that applies to what I was saying.

362 windsagio  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 9:30:02pm

re: #359 Dark_Falcon

Yes, it is important. When a movement has crazies at its core, that is important.

problem is, 'guys with signs' doesn't show who's at the core.

It just shows.... who has signs.

363 HappyWarrior  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 9:30:15pm

re: #356 Lidane

That's because there are a lot of Paulbots at the OWS rallies. Truthers, Paulbots, Alex Jones fanboys...it's all part of the same crowd.

This is true. Jones was one of the few right wing radio hosts promoting them. Those people will go everywhere. Though it's true, there is an anti fed contingent within the left as well.

364 Lidane  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 9:30:54pm

re: #359 Dark_Falcon

When a movement has crazies at its core, that is important.

I've been saying that about the GOP for decades.

Measure the direct influence of the far-left moonbats on the Dems and the influence of the far right wingnuts on the GOP. The Dems have been running from the far left since the 80's. It's why the two Democrats that have been elected POTUS since Reagan are anything but far left ideologues.

The GOP, on the other hand, has run headlong towards their crazy, not away from it. Especially since 2008.

365 Romantic Heretic  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 9:30:58pm

re: #268 windsagio

re: #269 Varek Raith

As a Canadian, thanks, but no. We don't want to be Americans. We like you, generally. That doesn't mean we want to be part of you.

366 palomino  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 9:31:11pm

re: #343 Dark_Falcon

Check out National Review's front page for some seriously insane signs from the "Occupy Wall Street" crowd. Hey, if showing nutty signs found at Tea Party rallies is fair game, so is this.

My objection to the TP was never primarily the idiots with signs of Obama as a water melon eating Kenyan/witch doctor/monkey/MaoHitlerStalin.

It was that the TP was clearly nothing more than a bunch of Republicans angry that they had lost the election...and to a black guy, no less. Only a tiny fraction of these TP'ers ever gave a shit about small govt when their side was in power.

Yes, both sides have morons. Maybe we should be discussing the really salient questions, like: Is there a legitimate reason for a movement that's critical of Wall Street?

367 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 9:31:19pm

re: #352 ggt

I don't understand the "End the Fed" meme? It seems they are playing to Luaps little paws.

There's a fair bit of overlap at the far ends of both the left and right. Some of those people actually are fond of Ron Paul, mostly on the basis of his being "anti-establishment".

368 windsagio  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 9:31:31pm

re: #365 Romantic Heretic

re: #269 Varek Raith

As a Canadian, thanks, but no. We don't want to be Americans. We like you, generally. That doesn't mean we want to be part of you.

How about a compromise?

Just give us BC.

369 HappyWarrior  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 9:31:57pm

re: #347 windsagio

WA used to be open primary, but the major parties came together to shut it down... sued the state, the bastards.

Pretty lame how when the two parties come together it's on something lame like that eh. I rather like open primary especially since I vote in a conservative area and if I can get someone less insane as the Republican nominee I'll take that chance.

370 Lidane  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 9:32:29pm

re: #363 HappyWarrior

This is true. Jones was one of the few right wing radio hosts promoting them. Those people will go everywhere. Though it's true, there is an anti fed contingent within the left as well.

That's because the far left kooks, especially if the ones here in Austin are anything to go by, actually believe that Alex Jones and Ron Paul are on their side and that Paul only runs as a Republican because that's what he has to do to win in Texas.

371 Varek Raith  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 9:32:59pm

re: #365 Romantic Heretic

re: #269 Varek Raith

As a Canadian, thanks, but no. We don't want to be Americans. We like you, generally. That doesn't mean we want to be part of you.

LIES!
/
:)

372 windsagio  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 9:33:28pm

re: #369 HappyWarrior

yeah. The complaint was that people would vote cross-party for spoilers, but I"m convinced that's something people talk about rather than doing.

373 palomino  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 9:33:35pm

re: #359 Dark_Falcon

Yes, it is important. When a movement has crazies at its core, that is important.

So it's not possible that a group of people angry over Wall St. malfeasance could have rational people at its core?

374 HappyWarrior  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 9:34:50pm

re: #370 Lidane

That's because the far left kooks, especially if the ones here in Austin are anything to go by, actually believe that Alex Jones and Ron Paul are on their side and that Paul only runs as a Republican because that's what he has to do to win in Texas.

Yeah I know left wingers who think Paul is our ally. It makes me laugh. Especially because he's so reactionary on economics and these people are so far left economically more so than I am yet I am the one who can't stand Paul because of his reactionary positions. Oh and the fact he's shown that he's content with racism. He may not have written those editorials but he had no problem with Lew Rockwell writing them in his name which I feel says even more about his character or there lack of.

375 palomino  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 9:35:02pm

re: #364 Lidane

I've been saying that about the GOP for decades.

Measure the direct influence of the far-left moonbats on the Dems and the influence of the far right wingnuts on the GOP. The Dems have been running from the far left since the 80's. It's why the two Democrats that have been elected POTUS since Reagan are anything but far left ideologues.

The GOP, on the other hand, has run headlong towards their crazy, not away from it. Especially since 2008.

Don't tell him all that. It denies him the comfort of the MBF.

376 prairiefire  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 9:35:10pm

re: #372 windsagio

yeah. The complaint was that people would vote cross-party for spoilers, but I"m convinced that's something people talk about rather than doing.

It is an excuse used by one leg of the Republican stool who can not fathom McCain was the front runner 13 months out. The, lo and behold, he was nominated.

377 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 9:35:11pm

re: #366 palomino

I don't hear much of this crowd other than "DERP!". If they have a case, let them make it. Otherwise, they should clear off. They are wasting a great deal of money flummoxing about making noise.

378 jaunte  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 9:35:48pm

Biofuels, Speculation Blamed for Global Food Market Weirdness

A new analysis of sudden rises in global food prices puts the blame on biofuel policy and mortgage-meltdown-style speculation, which may have fundamentally changed how food markets function.
....
Among the possible causes put forward by economists are drought, meat-intensive dietary habits and market hypersensitivity to supply and demand. Another is corn-based biofuel: In less than a decade, some 15 percent of the world’s corn production has been converted from food to fuel. Perhaps most controversially, some economists have blamed a flood of speculators betting on the rise or fall of food prices.

379 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 9:36:30pm

re: #373 palomino

So it's not possible that a group of people angry over Wall St. malfeasance could have rational people at its core?

I didn't say that. What I said, based on reporting from Killgore, CNN and other outlets, is that this particular movement has crazies at its core.

380 windsagio  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 9:36:30pm

re: #377 Dark_Falcon

I don't hear much of this crowd other than "DERP!". If they have a case, let them make it. Otherwise, they should clear off. They are wasting a great deal of money flummoxing about making noise.

You never hear anything else from anyone left of Tailgunner Joe.

I think its a personal problem.

381 William Barnett-Lewis  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 9:37:12pm

re: #368 windsagio

How about a compromise?

Just give us BC.

I'd rather take Canada and sane US and make USA+ while kicking out all of the former confederates. Wonder how long any of them would last without their federal welfare checks?

382 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 9:37:23pm

re: #380 windsagio

Horseshit. Have a downding for the insult.

383 Romantic Heretic  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 9:37:25pm

re: #287 lostlakehiker

Aw, WHAT coercion? Like, the employers are gonna know how the worker voted? Liberals support privacy EXCEPT for workers who might not want to join a union.

What was that little bit of history? Oh yes.

1880's. An employer told his employees that his door was open and if there were problems they could come and talk to him.

The first, a twenty five year employee, went in and was promptly fired. The second, over twenty years, was also fired with a shout of "Get the hell out of here! I can hire much better than you for twelve cents an hour!" Neither worked again. Their former boss made sure of that.

What employer coercion, indeed.

384 palomino  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 9:37:33pm

re: #374 HappyWarrior

Yeah I know left wingers who think Paul is our ally. It makes me laugh. Especially because he's so reactionary on economics and these people are so far left economically more so than I am yet I am the one who can't stand Paul because of his reactionary positions. Oh and the fact he's shown that he's content with racism. He may not have written those editorials but he had no problem with Lew Rockwell writing them in his name which I feel says even more about his character or there lack of.

Paul is anti-war and pro-pot. For a lot of HS/college kids, that's all they need to know. Hence the really old man's popularity with really young voters.

385 FemNaziBitch  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 9:37:45pm

re: #378 jaunte

Biofuels, Speculation Blamed for Global Food Market Weirdness

I heard forcasts a few years ago about the corn situation. The gist was that redirecting corn seed to be planted for biofuel instead of feed was going to have global impact on costs.

And here it is . . .

386 windsagio  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 9:38:41pm

re: #382 Dark_Falcon

You totally just made me cry :(

387 palomino  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 9:38:45pm

re: #377 Dark_Falcon

I don't hear much of this crowd other than "DERP!". If they have a case, let them make it. Otherwise, they should clear off. They are wasting a great deal of money flummoxing about making noise.

"Get off my lawn, you damn kids! And stop all your flummoxing!"

388 windsagio  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 9:39:08pm

re: #381 wlewisiii

I'd rather take Canada and sane US and make USA+ while kicking out all of the former confederates. Wonder how long any of them would last without their federal welfare checks?

And... we're back to the Cascadia movement. It's funny how everything goes full circle :D

389 allegro  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 9:39:12pm

re: #377 Dark_Falcon

I don't hear much of this crowd other than "DERP!". If they have a case, let them make it. Otherwise, they should clear off. They are wasting a great deal of money flummoxing about making noise.

Check out this interview from an OWS attendee. This is seriously awesome on so many levels.

390 HappyWarrior  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 9:39:14pm

re: #384 palomino

Paul is anti-war and pro-pot. For a lot of HS/college kids, that's all they need to know. Hence the really old man's popularity with really young voters.

You don't have to remind me how people in my bloc think. I guess it's my history major background and knowing how fucked up things were for the middle classes pre New Deal that make me not a Paul fan in the slightest. I like pot and I don't like war much but Ron Paul or someone like him as president would be awful, awful.

391 jaunte  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 9:39:22pm

re: #379 Dark_Falcon

I didn't say that. What I said, based on reporting from Killgore, CNN and other outlets, is that this particular movement has crazies at its core.

I think there are crazies trying to ride it, and use it to their advantage, but the size of the participation leads me to think there is something more to it than just crazies.

392 windsagio  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 9:39:29pm

re: #387 palomino

I FREAKING HATE FLUMMOXING!

393 freetoken  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 9:39:41pm
394 palomino  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 9:40:07pm

re: #377 Dark_Falcon

I don't hear much of this crowd other than "DERP!". If they have a case, let them make it. Otherwise, they should clear off. They are wasting a great deal of money flummoxing about making noise.

They ARE making their case. You're not listening...either because you've already made up your mind or just don't want to give them any credence.

395 FemNaziBitch  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 9:41:03pm

re: #394 palomino

They ARE making their case. You're not listening...either because you've already made up your mind or just don't want to give them any credence.

I'm not seeing any real case being made. They seem to be forming a case, but I haven't seen any final formal document that makes any sense . . .or is feasable.

396 windsagio  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 9:41:16pm

the accepted meme is "OWS doesn't have a message."

Its BS of course, but its convenient, and it matches the idea that they're all jsut damn wanna-be hippies.

397 William Barnett-Lewis  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 9:41:33pm

re: #380 windsagio

You never hear anything else from anyone left of Tailgunner Joe.

I think its a personal problem.

More true than not, I fear, DF. I have to work against it hard myself so don't think I'm just trying to pile on. It's hard to get out of a belief comfort zone but to actually accomplish anything in this life makes it a requirement. This was one of my biggest reasons to start coming to LGF rather than DKOS. I don't need an echo chamber.

398 windsagio  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 9:42:26pm

re: #395 ggt

said it before, you have to think of these protests as more flash-mobby than organized demonstrations. Its just not gonna be that organized, and it can have strength (well potentially these things are notoriously fickle) without any of that.

399 windsagio  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 9:43:37pm

re: #397 wlewisiii

heh that's actually one of the nice things about this OWS thing, even if things get a little hot 'n heavy sometimes. We as a community can be a little too unified as of late :p

400 HappyWarrior  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 9:44:16pm

Shit, even I thought the TP had some valid concerns. My problem was their cognitive dissidence and acting like government spending and intrustion was all Obama and the Democratic Party's fault. Oh and the hyperbole about how they were being oppressed. It's a pet peeve but I hate people who aren't oppressed at all comparing themselves to real victims of oppression and their political opponents to really nasty characters. The OWS has nuts in it sure but they have some valid concerns. Wall Street being under-regulated has been a problem.

401 palomino  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 9:44:32pm

re: #395 ggt

I'm not seeing any real case being made. They seem to be forming a case, but I haven't seen any final formal document that makes any sense . . .or is feasable.

It's not the Constitutional Convention. They won't be producing a "final formal document" any more than the TP has.

It's a big diverse group...most are probably just moderates and liberals pissed off over a shitty economy, people who know Wall St. had something to do with how bad things currently are.

402 Varek Raith  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 9:44:37pm

"So, rage against duly elected government is patriotic -- quintessentially American -- whereas rage against multi-national shareholder-accountable corporations is anti-American. OK, gotcha,"
-Jon Stewart

403 FemNaziBitch  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 9:44:44pm

re: #398 windsagio

said it before, you have to think of these protests as more flash-mobby than organized demonstrations. Its just not gonna be that organized, and it can have strength (well potentially these things are notoriously fickle) without any of that.

We'll have to see how it plays-out. . . All I see now is a bunch of people who are saying they are unhappy and getting a personal high off the group experience.

There are valid reasons to be unhappy with the financial system.

404 freetoken  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 9:45:28pm

re: #391 jaunte

Agree. These "crazies" about which some seem so concerned are the same ones that show up at G7/12/20 meetings all over the world and do their thing... it gets a little bit of coverage... and then... ?

It all fades away.

That's because self-destructive behavior is self-limiting.

As I posted the link (earlier today) to the NYT article on what the neighbors think in NYC, eventually people just want to get on with their daily lives and the attention getters get pushed out of the way.

More deeply rooted fears/concerns/uncertainties abound in this country over the security of jobs and savings/investments, and any good marketer ought to be able to tap into that reservoir of angst to sell this or that idea/fantasy.

Yet this country is not composed of those who are readily predisposed to some radical Trotsky-like revolution.

It just isn't.

Time and again we've seen that the cultural milieu of this nation is mostly flavored by religious and nativist sympathies. That's why the TP movement trades in those "values" - it's what the market demands.

405 HappyWarrior  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 9:46:30pm

re: #402 Varek Raith

"So, rage against duly elected government is patriotic -- quintessentially American -- whereas rage against multi-national shareholder-accountable corporations is anti-American. OK, gotcha,"
-Jon Stewart

This is what I don't get. The right wingers in the media have practically gotten down on their knees to defend these multinationals corporations. As usual the comedian gets it quite well.

406 Romantic Heretic  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 9:46:47pm

re: #368 windsagio

How about a compromise?

Just give us BC.

How about Alberta? Most of them want to be Americans. Or Texans more accurately.

407 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 9:49:15pm

re: #394 palomino

They ARE making their case. You're not listening...either because you've already made up your mind or just don't want to give them any credence.

Well, if the nutty stuff they're saying is their case, then its hardly worth listening to. They are not "99%", not even close. They don't even speak for a majority, no matter what they pretend.

408 jaunte  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 9:49:16pm

OT. The patience of dogs is almost unlimited.
[Link: www.neatorama.com...]

409 HappyWarrior  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 9:49:23pm

Honestly I see protesting the government and Wall Street are protesting two sides of hte same coin. Government is linked with Wall Street and vice versa. You can't bitch at people for protesting Wall Street while deifying those who protest the democrats in government and the same yes goes the other way around.

410 FemNaziBitch  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 9:49:29pm

re: #406 Romantic Heretic

How about Alberta? Most of them want to be Americans. Or Texans more accurately.

No, I think the Yukon. It's attached to Alaska and as the tundra thaws, there mah be gold in them hills --or really good stuff we can exploit. Proximity to Alaska and the Sea Ports make it a better choice.

411 HappyWarrior  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 9:50:13pm

re: #407 Dark_Falcon

Well, if the nutty stuff they're saying is their case, then its hardly worth listening to. They are not "99%", not even close. They don't even speak for a majority, no matter what they pretend.

Couldn't one say the same about the Tea Party who also claimed to speak for a majority of Americans? Same thing, different ideology if you ask me.

412 windsagio  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 9:50:18pm

re: #407 Dark_Falcon

do you understand what the '99%' thing refers to?

413 FemNaziBitch  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 9:50:55pm

re: #409 HappyWarrior

Honestly I see protesting the government and Wall Street are protesting two sides of hte same coin. Government is linked with Wall Street and vice versa. You can't bitch at people for protesting Wall Street while deifying those who protest the democrats in government and the same yes goes the other way around.

That may be the crux of the issue. We are hovering to close to economic fascism. (the line between Corporations and Government is mighty thin in places).

414 William Barnett-Lewis  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 9:52:10pm

re: #412 windsagio

do you understand what the '99%' thing refers to?

Or even that you, yourself, are part of the 99%?

415 Varek Raith  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 9:52:44pm

Sean Hannity recently said the Occupy Wall Street protesters "hate freedom," and Tea Party Patriots founder Mark Meckler said the protesters are breaking laws by wrongfully camping in a park and marching on the Brooklyn Bridge. Not tea party behavior, he said.

"Everything you described there, I believe, is a misdemeanor," Stewart said. "The actual tea party was a fucking felony! ... Did you know what the tea party actually was?"

LOL

416 HappyWarrior  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 9:53:20pm

re: #413 ggt

That may be the crux of the issue. We are hovering to close to economic fascism. (the line between Corporations and Government is mighty thin in places).

Yeah the government I think is too friendly to corporate interests which is a problem both parties have their fair share of guilt in. I am not calling for revolution but the government needs to stop coddling corporate interests. Small businesses are just as important to the economy.

417 palomino  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 9:53:42pm

re: #407 Dark_Falcon

Well, if the nutty stuff they're saying is their case, then its hardly worth listening to. They are not "99%", not even close. They don't even speak for a majority, no matter what they pretend.

You don't think a majority of Americans are pissed off at Wall Street?

My point is that the "nutty stuff" isn't their case, just a sideshow. Their case is about Wall St. malfeasance and socioeconomic injustice. Where you get the idea that couldn't represent a majority I have no idea.

418 William Barnett-Lewis  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 9:53:53pm

re: #413 ggt

That may be the crux of the issue. We are hovering to close to economic fascism. (the line between Corporations and Government is mighty thin in places).

Historically this has always been the greatest danger to freedom and democracy in America. Right now we are closer to losing both than at any other time in our history, I fear.

419 Lidane  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 9:55:10pm

OT, but this just came across my FB feed:

Barnes & Noble Removing DC Entertainment Graphic Novels From Stores

They're not happy about the exclusive digital deal that DC signed with Amazon, so they're pulling everything by DC.

420 FemNaziBitch  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 9:55:31pm

re: #418 wlewisiii

Historically this has always been the greatest danger to freedom and democracy in America. Right now we are closer to losing both than at any other time in our history, I fear.

I think what is different this time, is the global economy. Corporate interests are now global, government interests are (hopefully) domestic.

Brave New World

421 HappyWarrior  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 9:55:34pm

re: #415 Varek Raith

Sean Hannity recently said the Occupy Wall Street protesters "hate freedom," and Tea Party Patriots founder Mark Meckler said the protesters are breaking laws by wrongfully camping in a park and marching on the Brooklyn Bridge. Not tea party behavior, he said.

"Everything you described there, I believe, is a misdemeanor," Stewart said. "The actual tea party was a fucking felony! ... Did you know what the tea party actually was?"

LOL

Oh come on they dressed up as Indians and drank tea on Halloween, that is the story right? ;)_ But yeah Hannity and Meckler are being uber partisan jackasses here. Their protests are fine and patriotic but the OWS people hate freedom. Unbelievable how noble right wingers will make their own protests and how unnoble they will make their opponents.

422 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 9:55:50pm

re: #414 wlewisiii

Or even that you, yourself, are part of the 99%?

I understand what that is suppose to mean, and I reject the logic behind it. I don't see some class struggle in which the top 1% screws everyone else. I consider that rank propaganda. Those people do not speak for me in any way.

423 Varek Raith  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 9:56:41pm

"For god's sake people, now I see why you're mad at them for being muddled and incoherent, that's your fucking job!"

Stewart on the media and politicians bitching about OWS not having a message.
:P

424 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 9:56:52pm

re: #421 HappyWarrior

Oh come on they dressed up as Indians and drank tea on Halloween, that is the story right? ;)_ But yeah Hannity and Meckler are being uber partisan jackasses here. Their protests are fine and patriotic but the OWS people hate freedom. Unbelievable how noble right wingers will make their own protests and how unnoble they will make their opponents.

Someone who thinks "Marx was right" hates freedom.

425 freetoken  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 9:57:20pm

re: #421 HappyWarrior

You don't understand... the Tea Partiers are doing the will of God, but the OWS are the spawn of Satan.

If you weren't degenerate you'd understand all of that.

ducks

426 HappyWarrior  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 9:57:28pm

re: #424 Dark_Falcon

Someone who thinks "Marx was right" hates freedom.

So do people who think second amendment solutions are the solution to political disagreements. See, I can play that game too.

427 palomino  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 10:01:11pm

re: #422 Dark_Falcon

I understand what that is suppose to mean, and I reject the logic behind it. I don't see some class struggle in which the top 1% screws everyone else. I consider that rank propaganda. Those people do not speak for me in any way.

Do you see a system filled with "injustice" because the bottom 47% only pay sales, payroll, gas, property taxes, but no fed. income tax? Because that's your party's new line a la Perry, Cain, Bachmann (I'm sure Romney will flop on board soon too).

Yes, the bottom 47% are "getting away" with controlling a whopping 1.5% of this nation's wealth but not paying income taxes. Who says only Dems can play at class warfare?

428 HappyWarrior  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 10:02:47pm

re: #425 freetoken

You don't understand... the Tea Partiers are doing the will of God, but the OWS are the spawn of Satan.

If you weren't degenerate you'd understand all of that.

ducks

What's funny is I am not even a big OWS fan. And hell there was a rally in DC last night and I was in DC until 10:30. Yet had no desire to go. The thing that pisses me off is right wing pundits like Hannity will glorify their own protests and dismiss any protests done by their ideological opponents and say shit like they hate freedom or some lame shit like that. As I said, I wasn't against the TP protesting and I certainly didn't think they "hated freedom." Thought they were guilty of cognitive dissidence as I said and extreme partisan blinders but that's different than what Hannity engaged inhere.

429 FemNaziBitch  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 10:02:53pm

re: #424 Dark_Falcon

Someone who thinks "Marx was right" hates freedom.

Yeah, I think that is where we have been a bit brainwashed. Marx ideas were used by tyrants and have not worked in their attempts. No ideology works in it's pure form.

I have to read more as I've forgotten most everything I learned in the 80's. (As I've mentioned in the past). But some things, free public education, equal rights for women, minorities, homosexuals --are not bad.

I think people are fixated on "class" right now because we have so many gazillionaires in the public eye and multi-millionaire in Congress who seem to have more in common with their Corporate Court than they do their constituents. I myself have been wondering where their loyalties lie. How much can their personal experience really jive with mine.

This country is called the melting pot --of people, I think we are also a melting pot of ideologies. Somehow thru the adversarial system we work it out, we generally maintain the rule of law and our leaders voluntarily give-up power when their time is up. With all the problems, it's still better than many places on the planet.

430 Dancing along the light of day  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 10:05:22pm

re: #429 ggt

The "Melting pot" idea is, IMHO the strength of America. We assimilate, and make it all work, with tolerance.

431 HappyWarrior  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 10:06:32pm

I think people are pissed off because they see the wealthy acting like a tax hike on them would somehow ruin their lives. That I know is what pisses me off. I am not a radical person but I get annoyed with the wealthy and their political allies acting like returning tax brackets to Clinton era levels or repealing the Bush era tax cuts would somehow ruin freedom. That's intellectually dishonest and they know it. Plus the fact that they expect everyone else to sacrifice with spending cuts is an act of arrogance and yes greed. I am not opposed to spending cuts. I am opposed to just making spending cuts and acting like that is a good remedy because it is not.

432 FemNaziBitch  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 10:06:45pm

I found this article to be thought provoking --concerning Marx.

433 palomino  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 10:06:55pm

re: #430 Floral Giraffe

The "Melting pot" idea is, IMHO the strength of America. We assimilate, and make it all work, with tolerance.

I think a lot of people are just upset that the ingredients of the melting pot don't contain as much white meat as they used to.

434 William Barnett-Lewis  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 10:07:00pm

re: #424 Dark_Falcon

Someone who thinks "Marx was right" hates freedom.

DF, Karl Marx was an economic theorist. Some his best ideas, the Labor theory of Value, have gone on to inform much of later theory. Other bits, have gone to the wayside. This is true of all economists from Smith to Keynes to Milton Friedman.

What has been done in Marx's name has as little bearing on what he wrote as what has been done in Adam Smith's name has to do with what he wrote.

435 Altermite  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 10:10:01pm

The one thing I like about OWS is that they are deliberately avoiding established leaders, organizations, and groups- anyone who has an issue with wallstreet can join the protest. This is an admirable effort to keep their protest as 'democratic' as possible.

The thing I don't like is that this also means that anyone who has an issue with wallstreet can join the protest, which has resulted in various groups joining in and trying to associate OWS with their pet political causes, some of which are fringe and in a few cases, as reprehensible as some of the things seen at some tea parties.

436 palomino  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 10:10:13pm

re: #431 HappyWarrior

I think people are pissed off because they see the wealthy acting like a tax hike on them would somehow ruin their lives. That I know is what pisses me off. I am not a radical person but I get annoyed with the wealthy and their political allies acting like returning tax brackets to Clinton era levels or repealing the Bush era tax cuts would somehow ruin freedom. That's intellectually dishonest and they know it. Plus the fact that they expect everyone else to sacrifice with spending cuts is an act of arrogance and yes greed. I am not opposed to spending cuts. I am opposed to just making spending cuts and acting like that is a good remedy because it is not.

Well said. The idea that there is some sort of bright line between a top rate of 36% vs. 39% is pure bullshit. As if the lower figure represented democracy, and the higher figure was pure socialist tyranny. It's a small increase, and only applies to income OVER 250k (or 1 mil, or whatever).

437 HappyWarrior  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 10:10:25pm

Shit, I am no Marx admirer but I think he'd been terrified if he saw what happened in Russia, China, etc in his name. I can't blame Marx for Stalinism or Maoism anymore than I can blame Smith for the excesses of Laissez-faire economics that resulted in a huge underclass of poverty and a plutocracy.

438 freetoken  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 10:10:47pm

re: #434 wlewisiii

Karl Marx was an economic theorist.

Definitely a guy ahead of his time, or, perhaps more accurately, a man who defined his time.

Marx did his work before the later "-ologies" - anthropology, psychology, sociology - had worked out just what constitutes humans and how we all live together. Given what we know now we can judge Marx after the fact, but without a doubt he was at the cutting edge of observing how the emerging industrial revolution was reshaping society and how society would react to that.

439 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 10:11:49pm

re: #359 Dark_Falcon

Yes, it is important. When a movement has crazies at its core, that is important.

Says a Perry constituent.

440 William Barnett-Lewis  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 10:12:42pm

re: #419 Lidane

OT, but this just came across my FB feed:

Barnes & Noble Removing DC Entertainment Graphic Novels From Stores

They're not happy about the exclusive digital deal that DC signed with Amazon, so they're pulling everything by DC.

Ah, had it only been B&N that went bankrupt instead of Borders, the world would be a slightly better place. Not to minimize what Borders did in many communities, only to recognize that B&N is just that much worse.

441 HappyWarrior  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 10:13:01pm

re: #436 palomino

Well said. The idea that there is some sort of bright line between a top rate of 36% vs. 39% is pure bullshit. As if the lower figure represented democracy, and the higher figure was pure socialist tyranny. It's a small increase, and only applies to income OVER 250k (or 1 mil, or whatever).

Yep, this is what pisses me off. Listen, I understand they don't want to pay a tax increase. I really do. But I don't like them as you said acting like the current rates and the difference is between democracy and tyranny and two expecting the rest of us to make sacrifices. Those making over 250K won't be impacting by spending cuts as much as those making less than that. The Norquist tax increase pledges are nonsense too. You can't ban those but it would be nice if politicians would stop prostituting themselves out to Norquist rather than looking at the big picture that there are times when taxes may need to be increased.

442 FemNaziBitch  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 10:14:49pm

I think it is difficult for anyone who is not a Baby Boomer to really understand the knee-jerk reaction against Marx, or anything remotely resembling Socialism. WWII, Communism, the Cold War were very real. The Threat and ensuing fear and hatred consumed the nation. It worked and now it is over.

We are in a new time with new threats --some resemble the old threats some don't.

bbiab

(laundry--ugh)

443 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 10:15:01pm

re: #430 Floral Giraffe

The "Melting pot" idea is, IMHO the strength of America. We assimilate, and make it all work, with tolerance.

It only works when all are allowed to assimilate while others aren't forced.

White conservatives crammed assimilation down Native American's throats while denying the same to even mostly "white" Black people.

The melting pot is one of the greatest inventions of the 20th century.

444 palomino  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 10:15:17pm

re: #441 HappyWarrior

Yep, this is what pisses me off. Listen, I understand they don't want to pay a tax increase. I really do. But I don't like them as you said acting like the current rates and the difference is between democracy and tyranny and two expecting the rest of us to make sacrifices. Those making over 250K won't be impacting by spending cuts as much as those making less than that. The Norquist tax increase pledges are nonsense too. You can't ban those but it would be nice if politicians would stop prostituting themselves out to Norquist rather than looking at the big picture that there are times when taxes may need to be increased.

Yeah, when did Norquist become the new Limbaugh--the guy all Repubs are afraid to piss off...He who must be genuflected before.

445 Lidane  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 10:15:32pm

re: #431 HappyWarrior

I think people are pissed off because they see the wealthy acting like a tax hike on them would somehow ruin their lives. That I know is what pisses me off. I am not a radical person but I get annoyed with the wealthy and their political allies acting like returning tax brackets to Clinton era levels or repealing the Bush era tax cuts would somehow ruin freedom. That's intellectually dishonest and they know it.

YES. THIS.

I'm generally not the radical, let's-all-go-make-signs-and-protest type. In fact, I shy away from that as much as possible since I don't see the point. HOWEVER, that said, I totally get the rage driving the OWS demonstrations. Some white-collar asshole making six or seven figures a year whining about how his taxes going up a couple of percentage points back to Clinton-era levels is the end of freedom makes me want to punch things.

446 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 10:16:48pm

re: #424 Dark_Falcon

Someone who thinks "Marx was right" hates freedom.

e_e

Perry constituents have no business commenting on what constitutes "freedom" and what does not.

447 windsagio  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 10:16:55pm

re: #442 ggt

Yeah that's the thing. I often call it 'the old living the battles of the '60s', but that's not really fair.

Those of us who are post-soviet adults can't really understand the pressures and propaganda... the ENERGY there was against socialism up to the '90s.

I certainly know I don't, and I'm old enough to remember Red Dawn.

448 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 10:17:17pm

re: #437 HappyWarrior

Shit, I am no Marx admirer but I think he'd been terrified if he saw what happened in Russia, China, etc in his name. I can't blame Marx for Stalinism or Maoism anymore than I can blame Smith for the excesses of Laissez-faire economics that resulted in a huge underclass of poverty and a plutocracy.

I'm not so sure.

449 HappyWarrior  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 10:19:10pm

re: #445 Lidane

YES. THIS.

I'm generally not the radical, let's-all-go-make-signs-and-protest type. In fact, I shy away from that as much as possible since I don't see the point. HOWEVER, that said, I totally get the rage driving the OWS demonstrations. Some white-collar asshole making six or seven figures a year whining about how his taxes going up a couple of percentage points back to Clinton-era levels is the end of freedom makes me want to punch things.

Shit the Clinton era levels I believe were the result of a compromise between a Republican Congress and President Clinton. I'll add another thing that pisses me off though. Whenever you point out what I've and others have pointed out tonight you get accused of hating the wealthy. I don't hate the wealthy. I'm a product of the upper middle class. I just want to make it easier to give everyone a chance. And if that makes me a commie so be it, I don't think it's radical at all though to think that in times of economic turmoil the rich should make a small sacrifice especially if the rest of us are dealing with spending cuts. Of course another problem is the right wing politicians won't have anything to do with cutting defense. It's almost as they think defense is part of another budget all together.

450 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 10:19:27pm

re: #440 wlewisiii

Ah, had it only been B&N that went bankrupt instead of Borders, the world would be a slightly better place. Not to minimize what Borders did in many communities, only to recognize that B&N is just that much worse.

I disagree, mostly because B&N carries a number of military and firearms magazines that Borders never carried.

451 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 10:24:00pm

re: #449 HappyWarrior

Whenever you point out what I've and others have pointed out tonight you get accused of hating the wealthy. I don't hate the wealthy.

That's just the guilt and self-loathing of their unearned privileges coming out.

452 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 10:25:09pm

Also from City Journal, Nicole Gelinas delivers some good, hard-headed analysis of OWS, capitalism, and the state of the financial system. The last 40% is especially worth quoting:

If this is capitalism, we should all be protesting it. The good news is that it’s not. We’re in this mess—with unemployment holding at 9.1 percent—because the capital markets are utterly broken, and have been for some time.

Who broke the markets? Both parties in Washington. Republicans and Democrats treated financial firms as a class protected from capitalism for years, so long as the banks would keep feeding debt to American homeowners and consumers. To maintain their protected status, large financial firms fed some of the spoils right back to the politicians, in the form of campaign contributions and revolving-door jobs. The Dodd-Frank law, an attempt by the Obama administration and Congress to ensure that massive financial bailouts are a thing of the past, only tied Washington and Wall Street even more closely together. It hasn’t solved the problem any more effectively than the protesters have.

Politicians of both parties should be wary about painting the Occupy Wall Street protesters as “dangerous” or as wagers of “class warfare,” as Mitt Romney did earlier this week. They should be careful, too, in confusing the hard-core, overnight campers in Zuccotti Park with people who go to work every day but share the protesters’ post-TARP alienation. Tom Dematteis, a pizzeria owner and Navy veteran, told the Wall Street Journal Tuesday that “it was his first time protesting and he didn’t plan to camp out,” but that “he believes the financial system . . . doesn’t work for average Americans.” One of President Obama’s rivals might do well to address the fear and anger expressed in the protests. After all, on Thursday, Obama said: “The American people understand that not everybody has been following the rules; that Wall Street is an example of that.” If that’s still true more than a year after Obama signed Dodd-Frank, then the president is accountable.

In the long term, what’s far more “dangerous” than a motley group of civil dissidents—and far more expensive than a few million dollars in NYPD overtime—is a bipartisan policy of pretending that the financial crisis and the enormous harm that it has done to America is somehow over and done with. The financial crisis, and government’s response to it, remains with us, as does the debt that spurred the crisis. Ignoring it won’t make it go away.

453 HappyWarrior  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 10:25:51pm

re: #451 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

That's just the guilt and self-loathing of their unearned privileges coming out.

Do you remember the one candidate who claimed he earned his people and it turned out he inherited it all? I have to say the one thing I love about the US compared with much of Europe is we don't have an official aristocracy.

454 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 10:26:49pm

re: #448 Dark_Falcon

I'm not so sure.

rotfl

More repetitive pablum from that mouthpiece that produced The Bell Curve.

Go peddle that propaganda among the dumb confederates at VDARE, where it's better suited.

455 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 10:28:13pm

re: #452 Dark_Falcon

Also from City Journal, Bell Curve Central

fxd

456 William Barnett-Lewis  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 10:29:06pm

re: #449 HappyWarrior

Yeah. I firmly believe we can build a better, stronger & more flexible military for about half, or less, than what we currently spend. But what do I know? I'm a vet not a chicken hawk as seems to be a requirement for high defense positions.

Irregardless of party in power, as well.

457 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 10:30:10pm

re: #453 HappyWarrior

Do you remember the one candidate who claimed he earned his people and it turned out he inherited it all?

Sounds like a lot of them.

I have to say the one thing I love about the US compared with much of Europe is we don't have an official aristocracy.

True, although instead, we put in its place a bogus meritocracy that even the meritorious know has very little to do with merit.

458 jamesfirecat  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 10:30:13pm

re: #452 Dark_Falcon

Also from City Journal, Nicole Gelinas delivers some good, hard-headed analysis of OWS, capitalism, and the state of the financial system. The last 40% is especially worth quoting:

"In the long term, what’s far more “dangerous” than a motley group of civil dissidents—and far more expensive than a few million dollars in NYPD overtime—is a bipartisan policy of pretending that the financial crisis and the enormous harm that it has done to America is somehow over and done with."

Bipartisan my flame tufted tail DF! One party has a jobs bill to put forward and one party has stuck their fingers in their ears.

459 Dancing along the light of day  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 10:33:05pm

I think that "the rich" however you define them, would gladly pay more in taxes. I think the bigger part of the issue is corporate taxes, but we as a country, have chosen to protect our corporations from the potential taxes. I don't know how we change it, but we must, if we are going to move the needle. IF we think we need to move the needle.

460 HappyWarrior  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 10:34:36pm

re: #456 wlewisiii

Yeah. I firmly believe we can build a better, stronger & more flexible military for about half, or less, than what we currently spend. But what do I know? I'm a vet not a chicken hawk as seems to be a requirement for high defense positions.

Irregardless of party in power, as well.

Yes, this like the corporate interests I talked about above is a legacy of both parties. I have to admit to getting a laugh whenever I hear a politician or pundit decry spending more on education, health, or infrastructure "because you can't solve a problem just by throwing money at it" but what do we do with our defense budget? We do just that. And hell same thing with drug enforcement. There are a lot more crimes worth focusing on than a bunch of people who want to smoke pot. Decriminalize pot? I go a step forward and quote Peter Tosh here and say legalize it.

461 FemNaziBitch  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 10:36:36pm

re: #460 HappyWarrior

Yes, this like the corporate interests I talked about above is a legacy of both parties. I have to admit to getting a laugh whenever I hear a politician or pundit decry spending more on education, health, or infrastructure "because you can't solve a problem just by throwing money at it" but what do we do with our defense budget? We do just that. And hell same thing with drug enforcement. There are a lot more crimes worth focusing on than a bunch of people who want to smoke pot. Decriminalize pot? I go a step forward and quote Peter Tosh here and say legalize it.

Posted it upstairs -->

462 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 10:36:44pm

re: #458 jamesfirecat

"In the long term, what’s far more “dangerous” than a motley group of civil dissidents—and far more expensive than a few million dollars in NYPD overtime—is a bipartisan policy of pretending that the financial crisis and the enormous harm that it has done to America is somehow over and done with."

Bipartisan my flame tufted tail DF! One party has a jobs bill to put forward a tax-and-debt fueled boondoggle and one party has tried to pull the good ideas out of the morass so they can be passed.

463 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 10:38:42pm

re: #458 jamesfirecat

Bipartisan my flame tufted tail DF! One party has a jobs bill to put forward and one party has stuck their fingers in their ears.

City-Journal/Manhattan Institute is full of bull.

The Manhattan Institute is one of the main propagators of the "welfare mothers" morality soundbyte the dumb, seething confederates fell for in the 80s and 90s. Post-Reconstruction, 2.0

464 jamesfirecat  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 10:38:57pm

re: #462 Dark_Falcon

Well then Dark, what do you think of Obama's plan that if the Republicans don't pass his jobs bill he'll suggest the dems put each an every individual measure of it before congress to vote on.

I trust you would be in favor of it because it would let the Republicans vote to pass the parts they like, right?

465 HappyWarrior  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 10:39:27pm

re: #461 ggt

Posted it upstairs -->

Nice. I'll upding you up there. Bob's still my favorite Wailer but Tosh was talented. He had a good song about Apartheid too.

466 William Barnett-Lewis  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 10:40:28pm

re: #459 Floral Giraffe

If corporations receive the rights of individuals, then should they not have to accept the responsibilities and taxes of persons as well? Every corporation should pay taxes at the same rate as an individual would during the Reagan presidency.

That would fix the budget instantly.

467 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 10:42:27pm

re: #462 Dark_Falcon

Bipartisan my flame tufted tail DF! One party has a jobs bill to put forward a tax-and-debt fueled boondoggle

smgdh

Can't you come up with your own hackneyed cliches?

468 jamesfirecat  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 10:42:57pm

re: #462 Dark_Falcon

Also Dark I object to the you calling it "Tax and debt fueled" its mindless pandering... unless you can tell me some kind of government program that wasn't fueled by tax and or debt and if so what was it fueled by instead....?

469 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 10:43:47pm

re: #466 wlewisiii

If corporations receive the rights of individuals, then should they not have to accept the responsibilities and taxes of persons as well? Every corporation should pay taxes at the same rate as an individual would during the Reagan presidency.

That would fix the budget instantly.

They should NOT be allowed to marry each other, though.

Something like that would be against nature. /

470 William Barnett-Lewis  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 10:46:17pm

re: #469 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

They should NOT be allowed to marry each other, though.

Something like that would be against nature. /

Eh, merger = marriage. I certainly don't see the difference.

471 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 10:47:14pm

re: #468 jamesfirecat

Also Dark I object to the you calling it "Tax and debt fueled" its mindless pandering...

Along with repeated, spoonfed pap, scraped off the top of American Enterprise Institute or Cato or one of those.

"Boondoggle" is a good pet name, though. I might start calling my cat "Boondoggle". I bet she'd answer.

472 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 10:49:25pm

re: #470 wlewisiii

Eh, merger = marriage. I certainly don't see the difference.

Yes but do they love each other as God intended!

Can they do their duty and produce precious babies and grandchildren so their parents will have something to fill their wallets!!

No!

It's an abomination!!

473 FemNaziBitch  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 10:49:33pm

re: #471 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

Along with repeated, spoonfed pap, scraped off the top of American Enterprise Institute or Cato or one of those.

"Boondoggle" is a good pet name, though. I might start calling my cat "Boondoggle". I bet she'd answer.

Only if it suited her . . .

:)

474 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 10:49:57pm

re: #464 jamesfirecat

Well then Dark, what do you think of Obama's plan that if the Republicans don't pass his jobs bill he'll suggest the dems put each an every individual measure of it before congress to vote on.

I trust you would be in favor of it because it would let the Republicans vote to pass the parts they like, right?

Congress won't have the time for all those votes, James. He was bluffing. Voting for all that would leave not time for budget work and he knows it.

475 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 10:50:30pm

re: #473 ggt

Only if it suited her . . .

:)

She seems to like "Stripey Baby" these days.

476 jamesfirecat  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 10:51:25pm

re: #474 Dark_Falcon

Congress won't have the time for all those votes, James. He was bluffing. Voting for all that would leave not time for budget work and he knows it.

I'll believe he's bluffing when he backs down.

Also do you care to tell me what government programs/actions can be fueled by that isn't either

A) Taxes

or

B) Going into debt?

477 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 10:56:24pm

re: #476 jamesfirecat

I should have said "tax increase" rather than just "tax". And its permanent tax increase in exchange for temporary stimulus.

478 William Barnett-Lewis  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 10:57:20pm

re: #474 Dark_Falcon

Congress won't have the time for all those votes, James. He was bluffing. Voting for all that would leave not time for budget work and he knows it.

While I am afraid you're right, I'd prefere that he was not bluffing.

1) It would be good to make those lazy GOP congress critters work for their living for one brief shining moment and
2) it would be good for every Democratic challenger to have explicit proof of how the GOP hates America and real Americans trying to work their jobs, to live their lives, to simply be American.

479 FemNaziBitch  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 10:57:40pm

re: #475 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

She seems to like "Stripey Baby" these days.

Do you say it when you fill her bowl?

480 William Barnett-Lewis  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 11:00:20pm

re: #477 Dark_Falcon

True. We need to permanently increase taxes to at least what they were under President Reagan. Truth be told, if we want a strong America again we need to permanently increase taxes to the same level that they were on President Eisenhower's last day in office. We had our greatest and longest economic boom under those rates, after all...

481 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 11:01:36pm

re: #478 wlewisiii

Congressional votes take too long to have that many in such a short period of time. The Democratic Senators wouldn't go for it, since too many of them have campaigning to do. Obama can't force Congress to vote on something, and they aren't going to take up that much time for a stunt. That's why I'm sure its a bluff.

482 jamesfirecat  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 11:01:59pm

re: #477 Dark_Falcon

I should have said "tax increase" rather than just "tax". And its permanent tax increase in exchange for temporary stimulus.

Its only a "permanent" tax increase till people vote to lower taxes, same way its only a "permanent" tax decrease till people vote to raise taxes. Also if it is a "permanent" tax increase then the money is going to end up getting spent on something the years that it isn't going into a stimulus thus either decreasing the debt or funding other important programs.

483 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 11:03:26pm

re: #480 wlewisiii

Baloney. Those tax codes were impossible and shot full of loopholes. Much better to have a much lower rate and few exceptions. Then people can actually know what they will owe and act accordingly. It also reduces the need for auditing.

484 William Barnett-Lewis  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 11:07:44pm

re: #483 Dark_Falcon

If they were so impossible, why were the 50's so much more productive than the 80's?

Seriously. Ronnie promised us he was our saviour, yet it was Ike who actually succeeded as a Republican president. I still wonder _why_ ....

485 jamesfirecat  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 11:14:43pm

It's way too late (I should have been in bed two hours ago) so let me leave with this...

Dark you said there were good parts of Obama's plan... what parts did you like, what parts didn't you like, and why did you like /dislike parts of it?

(Sorry to push so much of a burden on you but I know I"m on the easet coast so it's 2:19 AM in the morning and I need to go to bed before I get even more confrontational with you and I should be worried less about getting one up "over you" and more about understanding you anyway)

486 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 11:19:10pm

re: #484 wlewisiii

If they were so impossible, why were the 50's so much more productive than the 80's?

Seriously. Ronnie promised us he was our saviour, yet it was Ike who actually succeeded as a Republican president. I still wonder _why_ ...

Because we had far less competition in the 1950's, for starters. World War II left the manufacturing infrastructure of Continental Europe and Japan in ruins (and they had not made a full recovery), and other nations that whose power had grown by the 1980's (such as South Korea) had yet to make their rise. Back then the US was the producer of goods in the world. But by the 1970's things had changed. Europe and Japan had recovered and some of the economic mistakes the US had made (inflation and the serious failures of the auto industry) caught up with us. Reagan started his presidency with a severe recession, caused by Paul Volcker's use of the Fed's interest rate powers to tame inflation. Once that battle was won (and Carter does get credit here as well for appointing Volcker, as does Reagan for holding to the course Volcker laid out), the US still had to gain in a world where gains for established powers were much harder.

How's that for an answer?

487 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 11:20:46pm

re: #479 ggt

Do you say it when you fill her bowl?

I should try that. "Fluffy Girl" often works for that.

488 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 11:21:25pm

re: #485 jamesfirecat

It's 1:19 here, James.

I'd start with passing the free trade deals, and then see about extending unemployment (not something I want to do, but it does likely need to be done). That's just a quick pair off the top of my head.

489 Eclectic Infidel  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 11:36:09pm

re: #154 lostlakehiker

You actually said, fuck liberty. Material reverses are not a reason to curse liberty.

You curse conservatives because they really mean it about preferring death to the loss of liberty. With you, it is evidently the other way around.

Your head is up your ass. Geesh.

490 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Fri, Oct 7, 2011 11:46:41pm

re: #489 eclectic infidel

Your head is up your ass. Geesh.

It's nearly impossible to have rational conversations with people who have nothing but strung-together cliches and snippets of Morning Bell emails. It's gotten worse over the years. When I was a conservative, uphill both ways in the snow with only an orange for lunch, we at least tried to put the mimicked thoughts of rightwing propagandists into our own words.

491 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 1:31:10am

re: #404 freetoken

Yet this country is not composed of those who are readily predisposed to some radical Trotsky-like revolution.

It just isn't.

Want to know a funny thing? Russia wasn't, either. The Bolsheviks never had a majority. That's why they had to crush the parliament, that's why they had to wage war against the peasants.

The October Revolution was made by professional revolutionaries, not the people.

492 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 1:35:47am

re: #424 Dark_Falcon

Someone who thinks "Marx was right" hates freedom.

I don't think you are qualified to make such judgements. You have demonstrated that you know jack shit about what Marx actually wrote.

493 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 1:39:27am

re: #413 ggt

That may be the crux of the issue. We are hovering to close to economic fascism. (the line between Corporations and Government is mighty thin in places).

This is a major reason why Marx is coming back in style, by the way: He analyzed the elements of the economic system as basically political phenomena. The more today's economy will be dominated by politics, the more it will make Marx's analysis appealing.

494 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 1:44:21am

re: #434 wlewisiii

DF, Karl Marx was an economic theorist. Some his best ideas, the Labor theory of Value, have gone on to inform much of later theory.

Labor Theory of Value wasn't even an idea originally by Marx, he just fleshed it out to the max. It originally was developed by Adam Smith and David Ricardo.

495 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 1:49:08am

re: #437 HappyWarrior

Shit, I am no Marx admirer but I think he'd been terrified if he saw what happened in Russia, China, etc in his name. I can't blame Marx for Stalinism or Maoism anymore than I can blame Smith for the excesses of Laissez-faire economics that resulted in a huge underclass of poverty and a plutocracy.

Yeah. But Marx did get politically involved. He co-wrote the Communist Manifesto, he dominated the Leage of Communists, and he made sure that the First International got rid off the Anarchists. He never held public office, but he clearly actively influenced the traditions other people who claimed him for themselves carried on.

So that's a little more direct cause-and-effect as concerns the history of thought than, say, in the case of Nietzsche having been claimed by the Nazis (which, you could argue, wouldn't even have been possible without the massive forgery and fraud committed by his sister).

496 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 1:53:05am

re: #442 ggt

I think it is difficult for anyone who is not a Baby Boomer to really understand the knee-jerk reaction against Marx, or anything remotely resembling Socialism. WWII, Communism, the Cold War were very real.

They were real, but there was also a huge propaganda effort by both sides.

Unfortunately, it seems the winning side has bought into its own propaganda.

497 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 2:13:05am

re: #452 Dark_Falcon

Also from City Journal, Nicole Gelinas delivers some good, hard-headed analysis of OWS, capitalism, and the state of the financial system. The last 40% is especially worth quoting:

The Dodd-Frank law, an attempt by the Obama administration and Congress to ensure that massive financial bailouts are a thing of the past, only tied Washington and Wall Street even more closely together. It hasn’t solved the problem any more effectively than the protesters have.

Curious that she doesn't elaborate on this point, no? Rather murky and obscure, this reasoning of Dodd-Frank not solving but aggravating the problem, no?

498 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 2:16:38am

re: #462 Dark_Falcon

one party has tried to pull the good ideas out of the morass so they can be passed.

Really? What's the name of the House bill proposed by the Republicans in which the good ideas of Obama's job bill are in?

499 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 2:20:16am

re: #474 Dark_Falcon

Congress won't have the time for all those votes, James. He was bluffing. Voting for all that would leave not time for budget work and he knows it.

Seems to me like Congress didn't really have a problem not passing a budget for some time now. True even since then 2010 elections. Been rolling on continued resolutions "just fine". So I call bluff on your supposed bluff.

500 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 2:42:41am

re: #448 Dark_Falcon

I'm not so sure.

I appreciate your trying to advance the debate, but I am not so sure that that piece helps. It is chock full of non sequiturs when it comes to "exposing" the "implied totalitarianism" in Marx's writing.

501 RogueOne  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 3:23:21am

re: #499 000G

Seems to me like Congress didn't really have a problem not passing a budget for some time now. True even since then 2010 elections. Been rolling on continued resolutions "just fine". So I call bluff on your supposed bluff.

I think you mean the senate which hasn't passed a budget in nearly 3 years. The house passed a budget for '12 in April.

502 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 3:30:03am

re: #501 RogueOne

I think you mean the senate which hasn't passed a budget in nearly 3 years. The house passed a budget for '12 in April.

*rolleyes*

I did specify Congress, didn't I?

503 RogueOne  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 3:39:19am

re: #502 000G

*rolleyes*

I did specify Congress, didn't I?

Yes you did. Get your terms right fereigner!//

504 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 3:49:08am

I think I did. The House has the privilege to initiate budget proposals, but Congress as a whole has to pass them for them to be able to become law.

Yes, all of this leads to arguing that the GOP is at the core of the problem. No, I do not think that that is neccessarily a partisan line of argument. No, I do not feel inclined to pursue it right now.

505 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 6:22:26am

re: #424 Dark_Falcon

Someone who thinks "Marx was right" hates freedom.

While I am automatically suspicious of anyone saying that, it's inorrect to say that all those who agree with Marx's analysis hate freedom.

506 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 6:28:30am

Kid raps against Putin and the Party of Thieves (United Russia):


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