What I Learned at Occupy Wall Street

99%
LGF • Views: 38,085

I went down to the site of Occupy Wall Street (after first having been confused at Zucotti park, where I luckily found a few dudes from the protests who sent me in the right direction) to ask some random questions I thought would be illuminating.

Before I get into the data, here’s some top of the mark good news:

  1. There were virtually no signs advocating violence. The most that I saw were the ‘revolution’ signs or the sign that said “If nonviolent protest is crushed, violent protest will take its place.”
  2. There were no people in stupid costumes, unless you count dreadlocks or hipsters as costumed.
  3. The sanitation level was not significantly worse than anywhere else in New York. For those seeing the pictures of large piles of garbage by the side of the street: that’s normal in NYC.

The top of the mark bad news:

  1. Paulian shit has earwigged its way in there. Not only was a lot of support for the “end the fed” argument, but people talking about cutting off foreign aid.
  2. The most organized people there were the ‘socialist’ (actually Marxist) groups, who had tables, literature, etc. However, though they were tolerated, they were not popular; I didn’t see their literature actually being read, consumed, etc.

Okay, now the data.

I polled 90-ish people. Obviously the selection of them was unscientific. I simply approached people who looked like they’d answer. This means I didn’t engage with anyone doing anything highly active, nor working, nor, probably anyone who smelled too bad.

I know my numbers don’t add up to 90 and in some cases I forget to record the ‘don’t know/others’. Sorry.

Question 1: Are you registered to vote.

  • Yes : 64
  • No: 16

Question 2: Did you vote in the last presidential election?

  • Yes: 54
  • No: 28

Question 3: Do you identify with any political party?

  • 19 Democrats
  • 6 Republicans
  • 2 independent party
  • 1 socialist party
  • 2 Libertarian party
  • 58 small-i independent

Question 4: Do you know who Adbusters are?

  • Yes: 42
  • No: 42

Question 5: Do you feel corporations should continue to have rights derived from the rights of citizens? Do you think the 14th amendment should apply to corporations?

  • Yes: 6
  • No: 64
  • Don’t know: 18

Question 6: Violence towards the police is justified in a protest.

(Answers on a scale of 1-7, with 1 being the least agreement, and 7 being the most in agreement.)

  1. (Definitely do not agree with statement) 52
  2. 22
  3. 7
  4. 5
  5. 2

Question 7: The Federal Reserve should be ended.

  1. (Definitely do not agree) 8
  2. 10
  3. 8
  4. 6
  5. 4
  6. 29

(None of the people who answered 6 could explain what the fed does.)

  • Don’t know: 30

Question 8: The banking industry needs to be more heavily regulated:

  1. (definitely do not agree) 12
  2. 0
  3. 0
  4. 8
  5. 12
  6. 0
  7. 58

Question 9: The current political system is irrevocably broken:

  1. (definitely do not agree) 3
  2. 0
  3. 2
  4. 8
  5. 14
  6. 20
  7. 30

Question 10: Do you know what progressive taxation is?

  • Yes: 62
  • No: 20

Question 11: The money that you’re using to be at this protest, where did it come from?

  • 60: Earned it myself.
  • 20: Student, so parent’s money.
  • 9: Some bullshit.
  • 1: Trust fund!

To explain the large number of people who say they disagree with more banking regulation: They expressed no faith in the regulators.

So, there you have it. My first poll. I plan on going back during the week.

I asked one other question which was to tell me what question I should have asked, what question they’d like to ask everyone else at the protest if they could.

The by far most common answer was some variation on:

“What do you hope to achieve? What issue should we focus on?”

The other good answers I received to that were:

“Are you ready to eat rats?”

“Where can I find good cheap craft beer in Manhattan?”

“Do any of these girls put out?”

“Are you employed?”

Jump to bottom

385 comments
1 jaunte  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 3:14:53pm

Thanks for doing this, Obdicut. Did you dig for any detail in question 10, or was it just a yes/no?

2 Obdicut  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 3:16:23pm

re: #1 jaunte

Thanks for doing this, Obdicut. Did you dig for any detail in question 10, or was it just a yes/no?

Yeah, I verified it. All the people who said they did know it actually did know what it was.

And again, for anyone else commenting here: I'm about to dash off to a post-Yom Kippur dinner, so I won't be around to answer stuff But please leave any criticism, questions, etc. for me and I'll answer when I return.

3 calochortus  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 3:21:21pm

Very interesting-thanks for the info.

4 Let'sTalk  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 3:24:14pm

So glad you went. I'm attending my second General Assembly meeting of Occupy Eugene this evening. I could have predicted the answers you got, maybe because I'm one of the people who see this as the last possible way to salvage anything of American Freedom. Chris Hedges has been articulating the issues very well. [Link: tinyurl.com...]

5 Obdicut  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 3:25:06pm

re: #4 Let'sTalk

What do you think can be done about the dumbass "end the fed" earworm?

6 Let'sTalk  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 3:31:03pm

I think we can let that be a red herring if we put our focus there. We need to focus on the things we have in common; we've all been screwed and it's almost too late to turn things around. There's no real difference between government and wall street, so voting won't fix anything. This isn't about political parties. It's about 1% of the people looting the assets of the other 99%.

7 Obdicut  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 3:33:13pm

re: #6 Let'sTalk

If voting won't fix anything, what are you proposing as an alternative?

8 freetoken  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 3:45:43pm
I asked one other question which was to tell me what question I should have asked,...

The other good answers I received to that were:

...

“Do any of these girls put out?”

Well, at least some of them have their priorities right.

9 Let'sTalk  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 3:55:37pm

Obdicut
Re 7 If voting won't fix anything, what are you proposing as an alternative?

I don't have a point to point plan, and I don't think any of us do. We get out in the streets and let wall street and the politicians know that we got left out of the conversation in 2008; We intend to have that conversation now. We'll take each step as we get to it. We hope to change the dialogue in Washington. We'll see how they respond. We've only just started.

10 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 4:32:28pm

@Obdicut:

Fantastic poll and report, Obdi.


@Let's Talk:

re: #6 Let'sTalk

I think we can let that be a red herring if we put our focus there. We need to focus on the things we have in common; we've all been screwed and it's almost too late to turn things around. There's no real difference between government and wall street, so voting won't fix anything. This isn't about political parties. It's about 1% of the people looting the assets of the other 99%.

That, to me, sounds like a red herring.

Voter apathy should be rejected. Everyone eligible should go and vote.

11 garhighway  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 4:36:34pm

Good cheap craft brew in Manhattan? The Pony.

12 jaunte  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 4:40:03pm

2007 Pew Research Center report on 18-25 year olds:

Only about four-in-ten agree with the statement: “It’s my duty as a citizen to always vote.”
[Link: people-press.org...]

I hope we'll see an improvement in voter participation.

13 BishopX  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 5:01:21pm

Great work Obdicut!

Possible question for round two, have you even been to a tea party rally? Let's see if there is some overlap.

14 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 5:52:37pm

re: #13 BishopX

Great work Obdicut!

Possible question for round two, have you even been to a tea party rally? Let's see if there is some overlap.

It would be cool to poll the Tea Partiers as well.

Great work Obdicut. Thanks for taking the time to do this. It does help to get information (no matter how unscientific) from some source other than the MSM.

15 goddamnedfrank  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 6:05:31pm

Mainpage woot!

16 Varek Raith  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 6:06:17pm

I'll bet you the moon that 90 percent of TPs, OWSs most people who say "End the Fed!" have no fucking clue what it actually does.
Education is key.
:/

17 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 6:08:00pm

re: #16 Varek Raith

I'll bet you the moon that 90 percent of TPs, OWSs most people who say "End the Fed!" have no fucking clue what it actually does.
Education is key.
:/

Yeah, I was wondering what they think an alternative should be . . .

18 Wozza Matter?  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 6:09:18pm

I called it a couple of days ago that most of the people there were not registered democrats, let alone being the base that is deserting Obama (as has been vaunted around here......)

19 Varek Raith  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 6:09:27pm

re: #17 ggt

Yeah, I was wondering what they think an alternative should be . . .

Only one group knows.
Paulians.

GOLDGOLDGOLDGOLD!

20 Gus  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 6:11:08pm

I run into the Ron Paul thing frequently in my limited circles. It doesn't seem to get through though in many instances. I typically begin by pointing out that Ron Paul is not pro-choice at all. The fact is that Ron Paul would create a free market utopia that would make Ronald Reagan's trickle down economics look like socialism. The super rich would welcome a Ron Paul free market utopia.

21 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 6:11:18pm

re: #18 wozzablog

I called it a couple of days ago that most of the people there were not registered democrats, let alone being the base that is deserting Obama (as has been vaunted around here...)

Most of the ones Obdi talked with . . .

22 dragonfire1981  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 6:12:27pm

It's funny to me how some Tea Party people dismiss OWS as a professional Liberal movement organized by Soros and his allies.

You know, kind of like the "grassroots" TP that's run by the Koch brothers and Newt Gingrich, et al.

23 Atlas Fails  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 6:13:55pm

re: #19 Varek Raith

Only one group knows.
Paulians.

GOLDGOLDGOLDGOLD!

Where will this gold come from?

END THE FED!!!

Interesting. Do you know what the powers and responsibilities of the Fed are?

FREEMASONS!!!

24 Wozza Matter?  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 6:14:11pm

re: #21 ggt

Most of the ones Obdi talked with . . .

88 is the largest sample so far.

Wider polling would be nice tho.........

25 FreedomMoon  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 6:14:22pm

I doubt any girls would want to put out for some dude with dreads. Washing them ruins them.

26 Atlas Fails  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 6:15:29pm

Paulian wet dream.

27 [deleted]  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 6:15:40pm
28 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 6:15:44pm

re: #24 wozzablog

88 is the largest sample so far.

Wider polling would be nice tho...

Funny is that there are medical trials with less participants . . . .

No, I was just being technical. Obdi said he didn't talk with anyone who seemed to be working --that might give a different set of data as well.

29 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 6:16:07pm

re: #26 Atlas Fails

Paulian wet dream.

Well, I think a lot of us wouldn't mind that experience!!!!

LOL

30 Varek Raith  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 6:16:57pm

re: #26 Atlas Fails

Paulian wet dream.

31 Wozza Matter?  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 6:17:13pm

re: #28 ggt

Funny is that there are medical trials with less participants . . .

No, I was just being technical. Obdi said he didn't talk with anyone who seemed to be working --that might give a different set of data as well.

If the workers are the people on the WWP stalls i doubt there'll be a different result.

32 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 6:18:19pm

gotta go for a while.

BBL!

33 Atlas Fails  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 6:18:32pm

re: #29 ggt

Well, I think a lot of us wouldn't mind that experience!!!

LOL

Personally, I'd prefer this.

34 Wozza Matter?  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 6:19:19pm

re: #33 Atlas Fails

Personally, I'd prefer this.

Eh.

Not Confederate bills, no good to modern Republicans.

35 Atlas Fails  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 6:22:39pm

re: #20 Gus 802

I run into the Ron Paul thing frequently in my limited circles. It doesn't seem to get through though in many instances. I typically begin by pointing out that Ron Paul is not pro-choice at all. The fact is that Ron Paul would create a free market utopia that would make Ronald Reagan's trickle down economics look like socialism. The super rich would welcome a Ron Paul free market utopia.

Good to see ya back!

36 Killgore Trout  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 6:24:48pm

Update on something I posted about previously....
Occupy Atlanta Mob Refuses To Allow Civil Rights Hero John Lewis To Speak


Surreal and hypnotic with the repetition and wiggling of hands. Very odd.
37 Charles Johnson  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 6:27:38pm

re: #36 Killgore Trout

Update on something I posted about previously...
Occupy Atlanta Mob Refuses To Allow Civil Rights Hero John Lewis To Speak

[Video]
Surreal and hypnotic with the repetition and wiggling of hands. Very odd.

Andrew Breitbart was hyping this video earlier on Twitter.

I suspect there's something we're not being told about this video.

38 Stanghazi  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 6:28:38pm

re: #15 goddamnedfrank

Mainpage woot!

Well deserved.

Awesome job Mr. Obdi-caucus.

39 Killgore Trout  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 6:28:46pm

I hate to break it to you, moonbats. This is going nowhere. It's most likely going to hurt your cause beyond anything Fox News and Glenn Beck could imagine. You're only hurting yourself.

40 Killgore Trout  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 6:31:07pm

re: #37 Charles

Andrew Breitbart was hyping this video earlier on Twitter.

I suspect there's something we're not being told about this video.

It's really strange. As far as I can tell it's unedited but I have no idea how to interpret it. It's just fucking strange.

41 Stanghazi  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 6:32:08pm

Did yall call the anti Iraq protesters Moonbats?

I bet you did.

42 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 6:33:45pm

re: #20 Gus 802

I run into the Ron Paul thing frequently in my limited circles. It doesn't seem to get through though in many instances. I typically begin by pointing out that Ron Paul is not pro-choice at all. The fact is that Ron Paul would create a free market utopia that would make Ronald Reagan's trickle down economics look like socialism. The super rich would welcome a Ron Paul free market utopia.

I know no one from that crowd, offline, but have dealt with them for years, on. This was mostly during W's 2nd term, when Paulinoids and truthers used to recruit on liberal message boards.

Paulinoids, truthers...so often the same sorts, in my experience. Got into some really ugly knockdown/dragout/smackdowns over that shyt, which usually went back to the same issue; let's just say it has to do with banks and who supposedly works at them, in their view.

I find that the recruitment was much worse in the 00s than now. Either that, or the places I go really have successfully run them off. I know it's still out there on the left...in fact, I expected to see more of it today at OccupySF than I did.

43 Killgore Trout  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 6:34:50pm

re: #37 Charles

It's all very scripted. These speeches are pre-planned.

44 goddamnedfrank  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 6:34:58pm

re: #39 Killgore Trout

I hate to break it to you, moonbats. This is going nowhere. It's most likely going to hurt your cause beyond anything Fox News and Glenn Beck could imagine. You're only hurting yourself.

Keep up the patronizing tone and insults, it's incredibly persuasive.

45 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 6:35:16pm

re: #36 Killgore Trout

Liveleak video is not working. Do you have a direct link?

46 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 6:37:15pm

re: #39 Killgore Trout

This is going nowhere.

Sure, it is. That's why there are now 1000 cities participating. Right?

You're only hurting yourself.

Your concern trolling is noted.

Do you have a link for your Livelink video? It did not play for me.

47 Charles Johnson  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 6:37:24pm

I'm just speculating, but the audience in that video may have been disabled people.

48 Killgore Trout  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 6:38:18pm

re: #45 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

Liveleak video is not working. Do you have a direct link?


Ok, this works on preview.
I still don't understand it after watching a few times but I think the audience is confused by the confusion. They wiggle hands and repeat shit, I don;t think they understand what they;re doing.
49 sattv4u2  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 6:38:53pm

Well

John Lewis was GOING to speak at the Occupy Atlanta event

But then

(But then)

the voice of the people

(the voice of the people)

took over

(took over)

50 William Barnett-Lewis  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 6:38:57pm

re: #39 Killgore Trout

What's the matter? Not enough people get maced or clubbed today?

51 sattv4u2  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 6:39:09pm

re: #36 Killgore Trout

Update on something I posted about previously...
Occupy Atlanta Mob Refuses To Allow Civil Rights Hero John Lewis To Speak

[Video]
Surreal and hypnotic with the repetition and wiggling of hands. Very odd.

dammit ,,, you beat me to it!!

52 Varek Raith  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 6:39:15pm

re: #50 wlewisiii

Or waterboarded.

53 Wozza Matter?  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 6:39:46pm

re: #39 Killgore Trout

I hate to break it to you, moonbats. This is going nowhere. It's most likely going to hurt your cause beyond anything Fox News and Glenn Beck could imagine. You're only hurting yourself.

They are highly unlikely to win the spin war. Given that they aren't particularly trying to spin what they are doing.

Dude, there's a huge amount of anger at wall street - giving shit to the guys and gals who killed the economy stone dead should not be unpopular as a concept.

54 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 6:40:03pm

re: #43 Killgore Trout

It's all very scripted. These speeches are pre-planned.

Pre-planned speeches at rallies, tut-tut what will the kids think of next.

Do you know if there was a reason given for Rep Lewis' cancelled speech? Which I'm guessing would have been impromptu?

55 Killgore Trout  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 6:40:46pm

re: #51 sattv4u2

dammit ,,, you beat me to it!!

If you can interpret that clip I'd be happy to hear it. I think the audience is just confused about procedure. Do they give a reason for blocking him? I can't figure it out.

56 Henchman Ghazi-808  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 6:40:56pm

re: #44 goddamnedfrank

Keep up the patronizing tone and insults, it's incredibly persuasive.

I have to agree there. KT is making some good points that I agree with but he should know this crowd still has many rational sympathies with their interpretation of the OWS movement.

A little high on the glib side KT buddy.

57 Killgore Trout  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 6:42:44pm

re: #56 BigPapa

A little high on the glib side KT buddy.

Image: GLIB.gif

58 sattv4u2  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 6:42:48pm

re: #55 Killgore Trout

If you can interpret that clip I'd be happy to hear it. I think the audience is just confused about procedure. Do they give a reason for blocking him? I can't figure it out.

I (I) have (have) no (no) clue (clue)

59 Killgore Trout  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 6:43:03pm

re: #57 Killgore Trout

Image: GLIB.gif

Get it?

60 Wozza Matter?  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 6:43:08pm

re: #48 Killgore Trout

Eh. The hands thing is used a protocol for the hearing impaired to be shown approval without noise, and also seen it used as a hippy-dippy way of keeping speeches moving without applause breaks (very san-fran, very early'00s).

61 Killgore Trout  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 6:44:01pm

re: #60 wozzablog

Eh. The hands thing is used a protocol for the hearing impaired to be shown approval without noise, and also seen it used as a hippy-dippy way of keeping speeches moving without applause breaks (very san-fran, very early'00s).

*wiggles hands*

62 Varek Raith  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 6:44:17pm

re: #60 wozzablog

Eh. The hands thing is used a protocol for the hearing impaired to be shown approval without noise, and also seen it used as a hippy-dippy way of keeping speeches moving without applause breaks (very san-fran, very early'00s).

Who cares.
They're clearly Marxist hippies with trust funds who need to be maced.
/

63 Renaissance_Man  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 6:44:25pm

re: #39 Killgore Trout

I hate to break it to you, moonbats. This is going nowhere. It's most likely going to hurt your cause beyond anything Fox News and Glenn Beck could imagine. You're only hurting yourself.

I'm not totally sure that's true, since even if it were true that all these protests were actually crazed lefty riots orchestrated by Communists and anti-Semites, much of America already believes that all of those 'lefties' are part of the global Conspiracy of Communist Evil anyway, thanks to the pervasive power of the cult media.

In other words, these could be the Commie Nazi Stormtrooper brownshirts violently assaulting police with Molotov cocktails and chanting Obama's name, and that would only match the conjured reality that much of America already buys into.

64 sattv4u2  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 6:44:25pm

re: #60 wozzablog

Eh. The hands thing is used a protocol for the hearing impaired to be shown approval without noise, and also seen it used as a hippy-dippy way of keeping speeches moving without applause breaks (very san-fran, very early'00s).

So whose benefit was the repeat after me (repeat after me) for?

65 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 6:45:09pm

re: #48 Killgore Trout

[Video]
Ok, this works on preview.
I still don't understand it after watching a few times but I think the audience is confused by the confusion. They wiggle hands and repeat shit, I don;t think they understand what they;re doing.

TY for the link. Still watching.

They explain at the beginning what the hand wiggling is for - it's to cut down on applause. I saw it at the SF gathering, too...never seen it before.

Some new crowd-address, listener/speaker model, looks like. Not my style.

66 A Man for all Seasons  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 6:45:25pm

Hi Lizards! Great news for Oklahoma and Texas...There is water falling out of the sky.. Weird.. I don't recall rain since last spring..
I guess Perry was a day late and a dollar short

67 funky chicken  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 6:45:26pm

re: #6 Let'sTalk

I think we can let that be a red herring if we put our focus there. We need to focus on the things we have in common; we've all been screwed and it's almost too late to turn things around. There's no real difference between government and wall street, so voting won't fix anything. This isn't about political parties. It's about 1% of the people looting the assets of the other 99%.

Hey, if we'd all work for $2.50 and hour and demand no environmental protection or access to medical care, we could have full employment! What greedy bastards we 99% are, huh?

68 BishopX  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 6:46:06pm

re: #64 sattv4u2

It's a way of amplifying so people in the back can hear. Cheaper than using a sound system.

69 Wozza Matter?  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 6:46:06pm

re: #64 sattv4u2

So whose benefit was the repeat after me (repeat after me) for?

Not willing to call that, but there's a mountain of stuff happening there that is not contextualised.

70 Interesting Times  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 6:46:17pm

re: #53 wozzablog

They are highly unlikely to win the spin war.

Actually, I saw what may be a very encouraging sign on that front - ABC World News had this segment during the debt ceiling debacle called "Tell Washington", where they pretty much set up cameras and invited random people to talk about their frustrations with government. Now, they're doing the exact same thing, only this time it's "Tell Wall Street".

If nothing else, it shows that finally, finally, corporate abuse is getting some coverage in the mainstream media. If OWS can shift the Overton Window from "government is the problem" to "government and corporations are the problem", that in itself is an amazing accomplishment.

71 sattv4u2  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 6:47:54pm

re: #68 BishopX

It's a way of amplifying so people in the back can hear. Cheaper than using a sound system.

umm,, errr,,,NO

The person taping it is in the back and the speaker is clear as day

72 Gus  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 6:48:06pm

OK. That was rather gross. What Occupy Atlanta did with John Lewis. I don't know what else to say.

73 jamesfirecat  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 6:48:28pm

re: #39 Killgore Trout

I hate to break it to you, moonbats. This is going nowhere. It's most likely going to hurt your cause beyond anything Fox News and Glenn Beck could imagine. You're only hurting yourself.

Well excuse us for trying to have a mass civil protest of an issue we find distressing.

74 PhillyPretzel  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 6:48:49pm

re: #66 HoosierHoops
That is great news. :)

75 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 6:49:02pm

re: #48 Killgore Trout

Cripes, I would not ever have the patience for this kind of consensus assembly.

If I were John Lewis, I would be like, look friends....MAKE A FRACKIN DECISION and come get me...I'll be in the Starbucks posting on LGF while you get your shit together.

One thing, though, KT - this does not look scripted to me in the least. Maybe that part comes later. But it looks anything but planned and scripted. More like haphazard and kind of passive-aggro.

76 Varek Raith  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 6:49:20pm

re: #72 Gus 802

OK. That was rather gross. What Occupy Atlanta did with John Lewis. I don't know what else to say.

Buy moonbat gold!
:P

77 Charles Johnson  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 6:49:49pm

re: #72 Gus 802

OK. That was rather gross. What Occupy Atlanta did with John Lewis. I don't know what else to say.

I'd still like to hear the context behind that video.

78 Atlas Fails  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 6:50:05pm

Here's the thing about comparing OWS to the Tea Party- it's pointless. The two are not analogous at all. The Tea Party, supposedly full of "concerned patriots" and deficit hawks emerged not when a conservative (and he WAS a conservative, despite wingnut attempts to re-write history) Republican was in the White House and running up record deficits, but literally days after a black Democrat replaced him. On top of that, the whole movement is astroturfed, and fucking stupid to wit. Some OWS protesters may be uninformed about the role of the Fed, but at least they haven't taken to dressing up like Paul Revere and openly brandishing weapons at public demonstrations.

OWS, like it or not, was much more organic. It wasn't organized to coincide with any big political events, and is made up mostly of people directly affected by the institutions their protesting (the unemployed, those with massive college debts and no use for their degrees, etc.), as opposed to senile old coots who want the government to stay away from their Medicare. You can criticize OWS protesters for their sometimes over-the-top antics and for the fringe nuts they seem to be attracting, but teabaggers they are not.

79 Wozza Matter?  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 6:51:29pm

re: #70 publicityStunted

If they can make that shift it'll be a miracle, but one that's sorely needed.

Far too much anti-govt from the meedja. Destroy Government, sack teaches, dismember unions - but don't hurt the poor defenceless people on wall street.

80 Gus  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 6:51:40pm

re: #77 Charles

I'd still like to hear the context behind that video.

Yeah. Same here. I need to control my anger in the meantime. You know me. Arms flailing and all. OK, not that bad. But there might be something behind it. Perhaps they let him speak later? Maybe Lewis showed up unannounced? I don't know.

81 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 6:53:14pm

re: #53 wozzablog

They are highly unlikely to win the spin war. Given that they aren't particularly trying to spin what they are doing.

Dude, there's a huge amount of anger at wall street - giving shit to the guys and gals who killed the economy stone dead should not be unpopular as a concept.

Lol a group that can't even come to consensus on a speaker they invited isn't going to spin anything.

But watch the rwnj try and make it.

Has Breitbart/HotAir/Redstate/ posted how "racist" the ATL Occupy is, yet?

Give it time. They will.

e_e

82 Gus  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 6:54:06pm

re: #77 Charles

I'd still like to hear the context behind that video.

Listen to this...

Congressman John Lewis Visits Occupy Atlanta

83 Interesting Times  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 6:54:12pm

re: #77 Charles

I'd still like to hear the context behind that video.

What has John Lewis himself said about it? Quick Google search only turns up wingnut sites hyping this for all it's worth (head-explodingly ironic given how they treated him during the health care debates...)

Edit: I see Gus posted a video above with John Lewis speaking about the incident, though I'd still like to see a more in-depth explanation of what the heck was going on.

84 sattv4u2  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 6:55:07pm

re: #80 Gus 802

Yeah. Same here. I need to control my anger in the meantime. You know me. Arms flailing and all. OK, not that bad. But there might be something behind it. Perhaps they let him speak later? Maybe Lewis showed up unannounced? I don't know.

You can clearly see an aide to Lewis whisper something to him then they walk away

I doubt he came back, but in that I am in Atlanta I'll find out

85 jamesfirecat  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 6:55:21pm

re: #83 publicityStunted

What has John Lewis himself said about it? Quick Google search only turns up wingnut sites hyping this for all it's worth (head-explodingly ironic given how they treated him during the health care debates...)

As Buck would be so quick to point out no video ever showed up of people actually calling him a Ni**er so we only have the word of a congressman and civil rights veteran against a bunch of white Tea Party protesters who seemed to have a problem with him trying to help down on their luck people get health insurance.... who are you gonna trust?

86 Varek Raith  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 6:56:14pm

re: #85 jamesfirecat

As Buck would be so quick to point out no video ever showed up of people actually calling him a Ni**er so we only have the word of a congressman and civil rights veteran against a bunch of white Tea Party protesters who seemed to have a problem with him trying to help down on their luck people get health insurance... who are you gonna trust?

RON PAUL

87 Gus  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 6:57:19pm

So again...

Congressman John Lewis Visits Occupy Atlanta

Congressman John Lewis came out to Occupy Atlanta on Friday, October 7th in Woodruff Park. He even commented on the Atlanta General Assembly's group consensus process saying "this is not something strange or out of the ordinary for me," and he was "not at all" disappointed he wasn't able to adress the Assembly. Video Colby Blunt

Rep. Lewis was apparently OK with this.

88 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 6:57:30pm

re: #77 Charles

I'd still like to hear the context behind that video.

Especially given who put it up.

ConserARTive/secularstupidest.. [Link: secularstupidest.com...] -- they have up as much information about who they are as occupytogether.com does, which is nil. /eyeroll

Their site truly lives up to its name.

89 Gus  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 6:59:01pm

Sorry KT. But you fell for a wingnut meme just now regarding Rep. Lewis and Occupy Atlanta.

90 reine.de.tout  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 6:59:11pm

re: #55 Killgore Trout

If you can interpret that clip I'd be happy to hear it. I think the audience is just confused about procedure. Do they give a reason for blocking him? I can't figure it out.

Best I could determine was that the group does things they all agree to; if there's not total agreement, they don't go forward; there wasn't total agreement on Lewis speaking; so they proceeded with the agenda.

91 goddamnedfrank  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 7:00:46pm

re: #80 Gus 802

Yeah. Same here. I need to control my anger in the meantime. You know me. Arms flailing and all. OK, not that bad. But there might be something behind it. Perhaps they let him speak later? Maybe Lewis showed up unannounced? I don't know.

That repeating shit makes me irrationally angry for some reason. Jesus Christ that's annoying. If I were him the second I heard that weirdness I'd say "fuck all you crazy motherfuckers, I'm out."

92 Atlas Fails  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 7:01:36pm

re: #80 Gus 802

Yeah. Same here. I need to control my anger in the meantime. You know me. Arms flailing and all. OK, not that bad. But there might be something behind it. Perhaps they let him speak later? Maybe Lewis showed up unannounced? I don't know.

If the OWS crowd really didn't like John Lewis, it'd be hard to imagine why. Not only is the guy a civil rights hero, he has also been among the most progressive members of the House for decades. He gave strong opposition to welfare reform and NAFTA, has been an advocate for gay rights, and led the charge to impeach Bush for fuck's sake. I can't think of a major politician more in line with your average left-wing protester.

93 reine.de.tout  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 7:02:30pm

re: #56 BigPapa

I have to agree there. KT is making some good points that I agree with but he should know this crowd still has many rational sympathies with their interpretation of the OWS movement.

A little high on the glib side KT buddy.

I would agree, except I'm not sure why it's OK for patronizing tone and insults to be used sometimes, but not other times.

94 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 7:03:10pm

re: #75 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

One thing, though, KT - this does not look scripted to me in the least. Maybe that part comes later.

[ nope, didn't. ]

Consensus process is not for everybody.

It's also not out of some foreigner alien Kenyan muslim galaxy, either. So those all up in arms because of what you read about Occupy Atlanta on some confederate site, just relax.

95 sattv4u2  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 7:04:18pm

re: #88 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

heres one NOT from that site

Guy with the bullhorn (red T-shirt) starts 5:25 in

96 Wozza Matter?  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 7:04:25pm

re: #92 Atlas Fails

If the OWS crowd really didn't like John Lewis, it'd be hard to imagine why. Not only is the guy a civil rights hero, he has also been among the most progressive members of the House for decades. He gave strong opposition to welfare reform and NAFTA, has been an advocate for gay rights, and led the charge to impeach Bush for fuck's sake. I can't think of a major politician more in line with your average left-wing protester.

People are absolutely fed-up with the system, there are those who don't wish to hear what any member of the current system has to say.

It spells oblivion and talking in circles amongst themselves forever, which is generally why these groups don't get seen much.

97 reine.de.tout  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 7:05:34pm

OBDI - appreciate the info.

98 Killgore Trout  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 7:05:43pm

re: #72 Gus 802

OK. That was rather gross. What Occupy Atlanta did with John Lewis. I don't know what else to say.

I don't think the audience understood what they were doing. I think they just liked wiggling their hands.

99 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 7:06:24pm

re: #95 sattv4u2

It's the same as the one KT posted, except a few minutes longer, right?

What did you want me to see in it?

100 Atlas Fails  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 7:06:37pm

re: #96 wozzablog

People are absolutely fed-up with the system, there are those who don't wish to hear what any member of the current system has to say.

It spells oblivion and talking in circles amongst themselves forever, which is generally why these groups don't get seen much.

If that's the case, they are total dumbasses. Anyone who doesn't like John Lewis because he's part of "the system" also probably thinks Obama is indistinguishable from Bush.

101 William Barnett-Lewis  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 7:07:18pm

re: #90 reine.de.tout

Best I could determine was that the group does things they all agree to; if there's not total agreement, they don't go forward; there wasn't total agreement on Lewis speaking; so they proceeded with the agenda.

That kind of 100% consensus requirement is popular in lefty groups around here. We almost bought into a condo that was being built shortly before the bubble burst (we backed out for financial reasons. We may be getting foreclosed anyway but that situation would have been worse). Anyway all during the planning and administering of the Condo association, it was done by 100% consensus. It can get to be a real dog and pony show if you get things split 75/25 on an issue.

102 garhighway  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 7:07:30pm

In a weird way, this is progress: these kids don't give a shit about white or black, they just see a guy who has been in Congress forever and assume he's part of the problem.

I would respectfully suggest to them that they are wrong about Lewis, but I understand the thought process.

103 Wozza Matter?  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 7:07:34pm

re: #100 Atlas Fails

Bingo.

104 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 7:07:36pm

re: #98 Killgore Trout

I don't think the audience understood what they were doing.

Well no, you did not understand what the audience was doing. There is a difference.

105 Gus  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 7:08:13pm

re: #98 Killgore Trout

I don't think the audience understood what they were doing. I think they just liked wiggling their hands.

I would last about thirty seconds in that group. Not my cup of tea at all. Too much like theater. But, Lewis was OK with it. Guess they used to do that back in the 60s.

106 Killgore Trout  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 7:08:32pm

Uh. I'm kind of defending the OWS protesters here. I don't think they understood the process or the speeches given. They just like to wiggle the hands.

107 sattv4u2  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 7:08:51pm

re: #99 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

It's the same as the one KT posted, except a few minutes longer, right?

What did you want me to see in it?

No,,

You were complaining about the site

The one I have on #95 is from another site

108 reine.de.tout  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 7:09:10pm

re: #101 wlewisiii

That kind of 100% consensus requirement is popular in lefty groups around here. We almost bought into a condo that was being built shortly before the bubble burst (we backed out for financial reasons. We may be getting foreclosed anyway but that situation would have been worse). Anyway all during the planning and administering of the Condo association, it was done by 100% consensus. It can get to be a real dog and pony show if you get things split 75/25 on an issue.7

I would think it would be virtually impossible to get 100% of any group larger than about 5 people to agree.

109 jamesfirecat  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 7:09:20pm

re: #106 Killgore Trout

Uh. I'm kind of defending the OWS protesters here. I don't think they understood the process or the speeches given. They just like to wiggle the hands.

//Yes the poor dears clearly have no idea what they're doing they should be all be tucked into bed with an ice warm glass of milk!

110 jamesfirecat  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 7:09:43pm

re: #108 reine.de.tout

I would think it would be virtually impossible to get 100% of any group larger than about 5 people to agree.

I DISAGREE!

111 Killgore Trout  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 7:09:54pm

re: #104 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

Well no, you did not understand what the audience was doing. There is a difference.

then maybe you can explain their reason for blocking him from speaking. I'm still not seeing it.

112 reine.de.tout  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 7:10:15pm

re: #110 jamesfirecat

I DISAGREE!

hah.
You see? What did I tell you?

113 [deleted]  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 7:10:19pm
114 Atlas Fails  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 7:10:24pm

re: #102 garhighway

In a weird way, this is progress: these kids don't give a shit about white or black, they just see a guy who has been in Congress forever and assume he's part of the problem.

I would respectfully suggest to them that they are wrong about Lewis, but I understand the thought process.

I understand the thought process too: it's a simplistic one. Read a fucking book people, this guy did a lot more than get sprayed with a little mace for his cause. And this coming from a guy who's tentatively supportive of OWS as a whole, for now anyway.

115 sattv4u2  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 7:10:36pm

re: #107 sattv4u2

No,,

You were complaining about the site

The one I have on #95 is from another site

Did you? (besides the wiggling of the hands for the hearing impaired, or so I was told)

I mean, do you understand what the repeat after me schtick was all about?

116 Interesting Times  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 7:11:17pm

re: #91 goddamnedfrank

That repeating shit makes me irrationally angry for some reason. Jesus Christ that's annoying. If I were him the second I heard that weirdness I'd say "fuck all you crazy motherfuckers, I'm out."

Heh. This was apparently the thing that started it:

@JeffSharlet JeffSharlet
#OccupyWallStreet forbidden amplification. Uses "human mike." one speaks, all repeat. Slow, silly, brilliant.

And annoying as it is, Sharlet sees a silver lining of sorts to the process:

@JeffSharlet JeffSharlet
Interesting thing about human mike @ #occupywallstreet is that u repeat things you may not agree with. Which can change thinking.

117 Killgore Trout  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 7:12:00pm

Are we for or against blocking the dude from speaking? I'm confused.

118 William Barnett-Lewis  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 7:12:10pm

re: #108 reine.de.tout

I would think it would be virtually impossible to get 100% of any group larger than about 5 people to agree.

You learn to plan votes based on who shows up at meetings based on what night of the week/month it is so that your quorum is sympathetic. And everyone agrees to be bound by the 100% of who ever is present and voting. That was the only way it stayed even semi-sane.

119 lostlakehiker  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 7:12:38pm

Foreign aid can serve national policy. If we want an airbase somewhere, we have to pay for it and calling the payment foreign aid is as good a name for the payment as anything.

If we want Egypt to keep the peace with Israel, it seems we have to buy that too.

But foreign aid as a way of relieving poverty and improving the lives of the people mostly misfires. This is just quantifiable and testable. Bueno de Mesquita and Sinclair, in their book "The Dictator's Handbook" have documented this. What happens is that the dictator's circle of essential supporters, his regime maintenance force, officers, tax collectors etc., won't do the dirty work needed to sustain the regime unless they get paid. After running their own nation's economy into the ground, they face poverty themselves. In the normal order of events, they'd stand by and a revolution would succeed.

But wait! Here comes foreign aid. Most of it, of course, is funneled into the coffers of the regime. The Army gets paid. The secret police get paid. Everybody needed to keep the people unhappy gets paid, and happily goes back to work.

That's not what we say we intend. Now that we know that's what happens, what will we do?

Remember: this is well documented and supported by statistics. It's part of a general theory of how organizations function, and that theory has enabled Mesquita and his computer gurus to predict many events that were generally thought unlikely. Including, recently, the fall of Mubarak. Mesquita predicted this, on the record, in May 2010.

He's not just blowing smoke.

120 sattv4u2  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 7:12:53pm

re: #117 Killgore Trout

Are we for or against blocking the dude from speaking? I'm confused.

Yes

No

WAIT ,, WHAT !?!?!

121 palomino  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 7:13:43pm

re: #117 Killgore Trout

Are we for or against blocking the dude from speaking? I'm confused.

Are we for or against any form of protesting what Wall St. has done over the last decade?

122 Dire Straits  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 7:13:53pm

I walked past there the other day (Zucotti Park) and I swear it smelled like a horse barn.

123 Killgore Trout  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 7:14:02pm

re: #120 sattv4u2

Yes

No

WAIT ,, WHAT !?!?!

I think we're against something but I can't tell what we're against yet.

124 goddamnedfrank  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 7:14:23pm

re: #116 publicityStunted

Heh. This was apparently the thing that started it:

And annoying as it is, Sharlet sees a silver lining of sorts to the process:

Yeah, I'm sorry, I agree that it's silly and disagree with Sharlet on brilliant. I'm a pretty tolerant guy but that is some goddamned motherfucking insanely dysfunctional bullshit.

That, is what hell looks like.

125 sattv4u2  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 7:15:14pm

re: #122 Dire Straits

I walked past there the other day (Zucotti Park) and I swear it smelled like a horse barn.

Hang around a lot of horse barns, do ya!?!?

126 Dire Straits  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 7:15:47pm

I am an unapologetically center-left but these folks came across to me like anarchists.

127 Gus  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 7:16:04pm

re: #124 goddamnedfrank

Yeah, I'm sorry, I agree that it's silly and disagree with Sharlet on brilliant. I'm a pretty tolerant guy but that is some goddamned motherfucking insanely dysfunctional bullshit.

That, is what hell looks like.

I myself prefer the traditional... "all those in favor..." That kind of reminded me of a 60s movie before they cook the guy in a giant burning man.

128 sattv4u2  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 7:16:15pm

re: #123 Killgore Trout

I think we're against something but I can't tell what we're against yet.

129 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 7:16:35pm

re: #100 Atlas Fails

If that's the case, they are total dumbasses. Anyone who doesn't like John Lewis because he's part of "the system" also probably thinks Obama is indistinguishable from Bush.

I just hope it's not the actions of people who have never been taught that what they are doing is based on what he did. They could learn a lot from him; maybe they'll get it at a later date.

But if he's over it, why shouldn't the confederates be over it -- oh wait, when's the last time they ever listened to John Lewis?

Image: john-lewis-bloody-sunday3-280x200.jpg

130 Dire Straits  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 7:16:45pm

re: #125 sattv4u2

Hang around a lot of horse barns, do ya!?!?

I've been around a few of them - my buddy owns and stables a race horse in New Jersey.

131 sattv4u2  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 7:17:27pm

re: #130 Dire Straits

I've been around a few of them - my buddy owns and stables a race horse in New Jersey.

Is that what you kids are calling it nowadays!!

132 Interesting Times  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 7:17:43pm

re: #117 Killgore Trout

Are we for or against blocking the dude from speaking? I'm confused.

Everyone who's commented so far seems to agree not letting him speak was dumb. The debate is whether it was due to malice aforethought, dysfunctional process, or massive misunderstanding.

133 Killgore Trout  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 7:17:51pm

re: #128 sattv4u2

[Video]

Marxist!
/loves it

134 Dire Straits  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 7:18:00pm

re: #131 sattv4u2

Is that what you kids are calling it nowadays!!

The horses name is "Tinkers Chance".

135 reine.de.tout  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 7:18:10pm

re: #118 wlewisiii

You learn to plan votes based on who shows up at meetings based on what night of the week/month it is so that your quorum is sympathetic. And everyone agrees to be bound by the 100% of who ever is present and voting. That was the only way it stayed even semi-sane.

LOL
geez. Do some meeting invitations accidentally on purpose "get lost" in the mail, you suppose?

136 sattv4u2  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 7:18:41pm

re: #133 Killgore Trout

Marxist!
/loves it

OMG ,, I totally missed that!!

:)

137 funky chicken  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 7:18:43pm

re: #92 Atlas Fails

If the OWS crowd really didn't like John Lewis, it'd be hard to imagine why. Not only is the guy a civil rights hero, he has also been among the most progressive members of the House for decades. He gave strong opposition to welfare reform and NAFTA, has been an advocate for gay rights, and led the charge to impeach Bush for fuck's sake. I can't think of a major politician more in line with your average left-wing protester.

My guess? They didn't know who the guy was.

Americans are remarkably ignorant, unfortunately.

138 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 7:19:24pm

re: #107 sattv4u2

No,,

No, what?

You were complaining about the site

The one I have on #95 is from another site

More like laffin' at that dumb confederate site.

139 TedStriker  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 7:19:47pm

re: #137 funky chicken

My guess? They didn't know who the guy was.

Americans are remarkably ignorant, unfortunately.

Yeah, some Americans are as sharp as a bag of wet mice...

140 sattv4u2  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 7:20:04pm

re: #138 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

No, what?

More like laffin' at that dumb confederate site.

Thats fine

Thats why I provided a NON "confederate" one for you

141 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 7:21:04pm
“Where can I find good cheap craft beer in Manhattan?”

My guess is that a craft beer can be "good", "cheap", and "in Manhattan", but no more than two of the three simultaneously.

142 jamesfirecat  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 7:21:17pm

re: #127 Gus 802

I myself prefer the traditional... "all those in favor..." That kind of reminded me of a 60s movie before they cook the guy in a giant burning man.

NOT THE BEES!

143 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 7:22:07pm

re: #111 Killgore Trout

then maybe you can explain their reason for blocking him from speaking. I'm still not seeing it.

Reine.de.tout said it earlier. Consensus was not reached.

Again, the link on consensus decision-making.

Read up on it. It's a matter of process (which is why consensus decision making works my nerves, personally -- you get ridiculous outcomes like the John Lewis one.) You won't be as confused.

144 Gus  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 7:22:12pm

Secularstupidest is a seriously moronic site. Watched a few of their videos on Youtube out of curiosity.

145 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 7:23:39pm

re: #140 sattv4u2

Thats fine

Thats why I provided a NON "confederate" one for you

That's very considerate. Thanks.

146 Dancing along the light of day  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 7:23:43pm

Hooray for Obdicut! That was a lot of work! ( And time with Moonbats!)

147 Dire Straits  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 7:24:01pm

re: #144 Gus 802

I thought you had left? Welcome back!

148 Killgore Trout  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 7:25:58pm

re: #128 sattv4u2

[Video]

Epic choreography.

149 Gus  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 7:26:06pm

re: #147 Dire Straits

I thought you had left? Welcome back!

It's the Italian blood. I always come back.

//

150 sattv4u2  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 7:26:14pm

re: #142 jamesfirecat

NOT THE BEES!

Couple them with the GEES and you could stay alive!

151 sattv4u2  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 7:27:02pm

re: #148 Killgore Trout

Epic choreography.

I watch all their movies at least twice a year

152 palomino  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 7:27:48pm

re: #146 Floral Giraffe

Hooray for Obdicut! That was a lot of work! ( And time with Moonbats!)

But the survey results would suggest that they aren't just a bunch of moonbats who can be pigeonholed.

Come on, everybody, give the OWS kids a chance to marginalize the commies and other undesirables in their midst. It's not as if they have no rational basis for protesting Wall Street's actions over the last few years.

153 goddamnedfrank  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 7:28:35pm

re: #143 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

Reine.de.tout said it earlier. Consensus was not reached.

Again, the link on consensus decision-making.

Read up on it. It's a matter of process (which is why consensus decision making works my nerves, personally -- you get ridiculous outcomes like the John Lewis one.) You won't be as confused.

That's why it makes me irrationally angry. It's a celebration of process above any kind of effectiveness or efficiency. It's the filibuster taken to its practical, ridiculous extreme limit. As some point you've got to get shit done and if everyone has to agree then that ain't gonna happen.

154 Killgore Trout  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 7:28:59pm

re: #151 sattv4u2

I watch all their movies at least twice a year

I should catch up, it's been a while. I went thought a Buster Keaton phase a few years ago. I guess I'll start with rewatching Duck Soup and rediscover my inner Marxist.

155 TedStriker  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 7:29:32pm

re: #149 Gus 802

It's the Italian blood. I always come back.

//

Leave the gun, take the cannoli.

;-P

156 laZardo  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 7:29:47pm

you guys you guys

so i'm back from the protest and i got lots of pics and stuff

will collate them in a bit

157 sattv4u2  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 7:29:59pm

re: #154 Killgore Trout

I should catch up, it's been a while. I went thought a Buster Keaton phase a few years ago. I guess I'll start with rewatching Duck Soup and rediscover my inner Marxist.

And Harold Lloyd!

158 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 7:32:20pm

re: #105 Gus 802

I would last about thirty seconds in that group. Not my cup of tea at all. Too much like theater. But, Lewis was OK with it. Guess they used to do that back in the 60s.

I don't think so, though it could have been.

SNCC went through some pretty legendary changes. Infamous, really.

Especially after Bloody Sunday. (pic in link)

I think it became more popular on the US left during the 70s-80s, but it has a long history. John Lewis, I've no doubt, has seen it ALL.

159 palomino  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 7:34:11pm

re: #158 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

I don't think so, though it could have been.

SNCC went through some pretty legendary changes. Infamous, really.

Especially after Bloody Sunday. (pic in link)

I think it became more popular on the US left during the 70s-80s, but it has a long history. John Lewis, I've no doubt, has seen it ALL.

A lot of the anti-Vietnam war protests were filled with what we can look back on as ridiculous theater. That didn't in an of itself destroy the validity of their cause.

160 laZardo  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 7:34:36pm

re: #106 Killgore Trout

Uh. I'm kind of defending the OWS protesters here. I don't think they understood the process or the speeches given. They just like to wiggle the hands.

Because the people in "the back" can't hear even if we have a megaphone, what happens is the "mic check" where the announcer speaks a few words which are then echoed by the audience in front out loud.

161 sattv4u2  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 7:35:18pm

re: #154 Killgore Trout

re: #157 sattv4u2

And Harold Lloyd!

timing

impeccable

162 A Man for all Seasons  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 7:35:19pm

I wish I was 21 again.. I'd hang out with the protesters wearing my cool black knit hat and carrying signs.. Down with the Man! And if CNN interviewed me I'd have a coherent argument on deck...I'd make sure all my signs had correct spelling as an aside...Effen Wall Street! rich people suk!
Notice the fine tuned purpose of the movement..And try not to laugh..
Yes I wish I was 21 again but all I get to do is vote every 2 years to make real changes in America...
/

163 Gus  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 7:36:31pm

re: #158 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

I don't think so, though it could have been.

SNCC went through some pretty legendary changes. Infamous, really.

Especially after Bloody Sunday. (pic in link)

I think it became more popular on the US left during the 70s-80s, but it has a long history. John Lewis, I've no doubt, has seen it ALL.

If John Lewis is cool with it then I'm cool with it. That's all that counts really. Not for me to tell Occupy Atlanta how to run things either. :)

164 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 7:36:51pm

re: #153 goddamnedfrank

That's why it makes me irrationally angry. It's a celebration of process above any kind of effectiveness or efficiency. It's the filibuster taken to its practical, ridiculous extreme limit. As some point you've got to get shit done and if everyone has to agree then that ain't gonna happen.

Yeah, I can't do it. It's great for a learning experiment in a relatively controlled environment like a workshop, but I bet a lot of people just learned the downside of how it does not work in the real world, today.

Especially the ones who went on their phones and looked up just who it was they barred from speaking.

And people ask me why I stopped going to this stuff...well... :/

165 A Man for all Seasons  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 7:37:07pm

re: #149 Gus 802

It's the Italian blood. I always come back.

//

You pissed me off by leaving...
Don't ever do that again... Hey email Ice and we'll talk

166 Gus  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 7:37:55pm

re: #165 HoosierHoops

You pissed me off by leaving...
Don't ever do that again... Hey email Ice and we'll talk

OK. Mañana. :)

167 reine.de.tout  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 7:39:24pm

re: #154 Killgore Trout

I should catch up, it's been a while. I went thought a Buster Keaton phase a few years ago. I guess I'll start with rewatching Duck Soup and rediscover my inner Marxist.

Oh, gawd, no, please. What'll happen to my conservative cred if you do that, and if I keep thinking you're so damned right on target? Gawd, I'm getting confused thinking about it.

168 goddamnedfrank  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 7:39:40pm

re: #160 laZardo

Because the people in "the back" can't hear even if we have a megaphone, what happens is the "mic check" where the announcer speaks a few words which are then echoed by the audience in front out loud.

It's the worst thing I've ever seen in my entire life.

Okay, I've been laying on the hyperbole a bit thick, but for some reason that practice drives me nuts. It's fine when people are "lining out" in church, but just smacks of weirdness outside a worship service.

169 A Man for all Seasons  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 7:39:40pm

re: #166 Gus 802

OK. Mañana. :)

Cool.. I look forward to hearing from you

170 sattv4u2  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 7:41:56pm

re: #160 laZardo

Because the people in "the back" can't hear even if we have a megaphone, what happens is the "mic check" where the announcer speaks a few words which are then echoed by the audience in front out loud.

But that wasn't what was happening there

A) the "crowd" wasn't that large

B) the video was shot from the back, and the audio from there was clear

C) the echoing wasn't just from those in the front, it was from everyone

171 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 7:42:11pm

re: #159 palomino

A lot of the anti-Vietnam war protests were filled with what we can look back on as ridiculous theater. That didn't in an of itself destroy the validity of their cause.

Well, in my mind, this doesn't either, though the cons are certainly chomping at the bit for this ATLANTA MOB WOULD NOT LET CIVIL RIGHTS ICON SPEAK!!!!1@ incident to bring the whole thing down, asap.

Wishful thinking, afaic.

172 Gus  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 7:43:55pm

re: #169 HoosierHoops

Cool.. I look forward to hearing from you

OK. Ice should have my number already but I'll forward it to her again.

173 palomino  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 7:44:56pm

re: #171 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

Well, in my mind, this doesn't either, though the cons are certainly chomping at the bit for this ATLANTA MOB WOULD NOT LET CIVIL RIGHTS ICON SPEAK!!!1@ incident to bring the whole thing down, asap.

Wishful thinking, afaic.

Exactly. So a bunch of young kids didn't know who Lewis was...is it really that big a deal? Many Americans know MLK and not a lot more in the way of civil rights activism.

174 laZardo  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 7:46:27pm

Best line from a pamphlet goes to the anarchists:

The Nazis had laws too.

I:

/also, we were marching to the Bank of America building and the anarchists decided to walk out into the streets to the audible consternation of those that stuck to the sidewalk

175 Gus  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 7:47:30pm

re: #174 laZardo

Best line from a pamphlet goes to the anarchists:

I:

/also, we were marching to the Bank of America building and the anarchists decided to walk out into the streets to the audible consternation of those that stuck to the sidewalk

There ya' go. Exactly. Happens all the time.

176 prairiefire  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 7:47:44pm

So many rats in NYC. To bad there are not more garbage disposals or the sewers to support them. "Paulians". A catchall for the young who seem to have never been faced with hard adversity, and can easily be simply idealistic.

177 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 7:47:51pm

re: #170 sattv4u2

But that wasn't what was happening there

A) the "crowd" wasn't that large

B) the video was shot from the back, and the audio from there was clear

Through a mini boom mic, sure.

C) the echoing wasn't just from those in the front, it was from everyone

It's supposed to be from everyone, because that amplifies the sound.

I saw the same thing at the OccupySF site today which was much smaller. I thought it might be for some kind of accessibility reasons. That's probably also part of it.

178 sattv4u2  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 7:48:58pm

re: #177 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

Through a mini boom mic, sure.

No ,,, the second link I posted, the guy had a hand held mini cam

179 reine.de.tout  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 7:49:33pm

re: #175 Gus 802

There ya' go. Exactly. Happens all the time.

I've been stuck to the sidewalk more times that I care to admit. Seriously. Not fun.

180 deadletterboy  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 7:50:25pm

Not sure this has been posted yet.

Photo of the Day: Congressman John Lewis at Occupy Atlanta

Congressman John Lewis John Lewis visited the Occupy Atlanta rally at Woodruff Park last night approximately 45 minutes after its planning session, or General Assembly, started. Despite saying he did not want to speak, the civil rights icon was invited to address to the crowd. When the topic of allowing Lewis to speak was presented to the group, "Joe" (pictured in red) held up his arms to "block" Lewis from speaking.

"Joe" said he was against Lewis speaking because the movement is "not about one individual" and that it has been built on the idea of "no hierarchy." The crowd decided the congressman could speak after the General Assembly, but Lewis had to leave for a previous engagement. Here's a video of the exchange shot by one of the attendees:

181 A Man for all Seasons  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 7:51:52pm

re: #172 Gus 802

OK. Ice should have my number already but I'll forward it to her again.

please do.. Last time we talked was quite awhile ago and I punched the number into my internet phone and probably the only people that have a record of that is the NSA. LOL
I'm kind of thinking of spending my last 2 or 3 years here in Oklahoma renting 80-100 acres and a big country house wired for sound.. Something inside me is saying buy a big truck.. Just do it..Why not..Sounds like fun Gus..

182 laZardo  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 7:51:55pm

re: #175 Gus 802

There ya' go. Exactly. Happens all the time.

And the fun bit:

Don't assume those who break the law or confront police are agents provocateurs.

Which is odd because a couple of anarchists I talked to on the first day I was there told me up front that the people that did those generally were. Huh.

183 deadletterboy  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 7:51:55pm

re: #180 deadletterboy

Kind of a stupid decision, but there you go. Kid probably made it on the fly, and I'm sure he regrets it now that it went semi-viral.

Though it sure isn't, you know, signs with overt racial slurs and open cries for treason that somehow managed to be ignored every time they showed up a tea party rally.

184 ProGunLiberal  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 7:52:18pm

re: #180 deadletterboy

This "Joe" person better be in trouble later.

In any case, a movement may not rely on 1 person, but one person can be incredibly influential (MLK and Gandhi, for instance).

185 freetoken  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 7:52:48pm

re: #180 deadletterboy

Not sure this has been posted yet.

Photo of the Day: Congressman John Lewis at Occupy Atlanta

..."Joe" said he was against Lewis speaking because the movement is "not about one individual" ...

And of course "Joe" is himself "one individual" and that "one individual" "Joe" succeeded in stopping what others wanted...

The idiocy, it burns.

186 prairiefire  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 7:53:02pm

re: #181 HoosierHoops

He came back, Hoops.

187 Gus  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 7:53:50pm

re: #181 HoosierHoops

please do.. Last time we talked was quite awhile ago and I punched the number into my internet phone and probably the only people that have a record of that is the NSA. LOL
I'm kind of thinking of spending my last 2 or 3 years here in Oklahoma renting 80-100 acres and a big country house wired for sound.. Something inside me is saying buy a big truck.. Just do it..Why not..Sounds like fun Gus..

I do windows. //

188 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 7:54:23pm

re: #173 palomino

Exactly. So a bunch of young kids didn't know who Lewis was...is it really that big a deal? Many Americans know MLK and not a lot more in the way of civil rights activism.

Yes, it would be a huge deal, travesty really, if they are in Atlanta and know anything about the neighboring states history, much less their own.

I think it's also much worse than Americans not knowing much more than those three letters, MLK. They know seven words from MLK, "content of character" and "i have a dream" then think they know something about the civil rights movement.

Trust me, I've been expected to endure many a lecture by many such people, more times than I can count. lol

189 sattv4u2  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 7:54:23pm

re: #187 Gus 802

I do windows. //

is that what you kids are calling it nowadays!

190 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 7:55:42pm

re: #178 sattv4u2

Through a mini boom mic, sure.

No ,,, the second link I posted, the guy had a hand held mini cam

Second sentence, pls.

191 Gus  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 7:56:05pm

re: #186 prairiefire

He came back, Hoops.

There's a fungus among us.

//

192 Talking Point Detective  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 7:56:57pm

Don't know if this has already been asked -

What % would you guess were minorities?

Seems to me that the success of this movement as an electoral factor will be a function of minority involvement.

193 prairiefire  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 7:57:26pm

re: #191 Gus 802

There's a fungus among us.

//

You ain't no fungus, Gus. ♤♤

194 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 7:57:37pm

re: #185 freetoken

And of course "Joe" is himself "one individual" and that "one individual" "Joe" succeeded in stopping what others wanted...

The idiocy, it burns.

That's the, uh, paradox of consensus decision-making. Goddamnedfrank hit it right on the button: it's the worst of the filibuster. And dragged on f or e v e r ...

195 deadletterboy  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 7:57:50pm

re: #184 ProLifeLiberal

These are all true. And honestly, the kid should lighten up, as I'm sure that Lewis would likely have said some supportive things. Ah well.

Also, I'm going to stop calling him 'the kid' as I'm 27 and I'm sure I'm not much older than him. Hell, I even have a beard.

196 sattv4u2  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 7:57:50pm

re: #190 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

Second sentence, pls.

So to hear what the speaker said you have to repeat what the speaker said so you can hear what the speaker said!~

got it!

(meaning,,, if everyone heard it, the "sound" didn't need to be amplified)

((and seeing that they all repeated it , they all ((wait for it)) heard it!!))

197 Killgore Trout  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 7:58:54pm

re: #180 deadletterboy

Not sure this has been posted yet.

Photo of the Day: Congressman John Lewis at Occupy Atlanta

Dr. Seuss Bible


"forgive them, oh lord. They know not what they do, they walk through this life in uncomfortable shoes."
198 palomino  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 7:59:44pm

re: #188 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

Yes, it would be a huge deal, travesty really, if they are in Atlanta and know anything about the neighboring states history, much less their own.

I think it's also much worse than Americans not knowing much more than those three letters, MLK. They know seven words from MLK, "content of character" and "i have a dream" then think they know something about the civil rights movement.

Trust me, I've been expected to endure many a lecture by many such people, more times than I can count. lol

And the protesters who don't know about Lewis should be embarrassed. But the movement itself isn't destroyed by this misdeed, as some on the right would have us believe. Any nascent movement will have some big missteps along the way. I just think it's too early to completely write off OWS as a bunch of pinkos, as many on the right would have us do. If nothing else, the target of their anger, Wall St., deserves some vocal opprobrium.

199 Atlas Fails  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 8:00:30pm

re: #188 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

Yes, it would be a huge deal, travesty really, if they are in Atlanta and know anything about the neighboring states history, much less their own.

I think it's also much worse than Americans not knowing much more than those three letters, MLK. They know seven words from MLK, "content of character" and "i have a dream" then think they know something about the civil rights movement.

Trust me, I've been expected to endure many a lecture by many such people, more times than I can count. lol

Is there anything more adorable than the whole "MLK WAS A REPUBLICAN!!!" thing from teabaggers desperately trying to convince themselves how un-racist they are?

200 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 8:00:37pm

re: #192 Talking Point Detective

Don't know if this has already been asked -

What % would you guess were minorities?

Seems to me that the success of this movement as an electoral factor will be a function of minority involvement.

I think it's way too early to be talking about electoral factors. This really didn't take off until what, Tuesday?

As for minorities, well, there are lots of different kinds of minorities, all with overlapping and competing interests. So you'll have to be more specific.

201 lostlakehiker  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 8:01:37pm

re: #159 palomino

A lot of the anti-Vietnam war protests were filled with what we can look back on as ridiculous theater. That didn't in an of itself destroy the validity of their cause.

I was at one of those protests, and we had an organization of sorts. Very thin, very basic, but the idea was to not let provocateurs get a ball rolling.

The tactic was that if somebody tried something of the sort, we, the civilized protesters, would converge on him and just be there as warm bodies, obstructing mayhem by our presence.

No force, no fighting. Just presence.

Happily (and some protests either didn't care to control their rowdy element, or failed in the effort) it worked. The thing came off without incident. Our message was not undone by the other message, the one that's always sent when violence takes center stage.

It's a simple approach, though if push came to shove it might mean those committed to the plan taking one for the team.

202 sattv4u2  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 8:02:24pm

BBIAB

Lots of stuff at work starts/ ends right now

Gotta play Good Employee

203 A Man for all Seasons  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 8:03:40pm

re: #187 Gus 802

I do windows. //

I have a gazillion Frontier miles..So you can always visit for free from Denver.. My maid is looking around for me.. I'll be here for 2 or 3 years..Why not rent a killer country place?

204 sagehen  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 8:04:15pm

OWS is the lead story on WNBC's 11 o'clock news -- they're presenting it *very* sympathetically, almost as fawning as Fox's Tea Party coverage. And hyping ongoing coverage on their website.

205 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 8:04:17pm

re: #196 sattv4u2

Congratulations, you did it. That's why they have those mic checks that laZardo was talking about.

There was indeed one in the video footage. Did you miss it?

206 Gus  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 8:08:40pm

re: #203 HoosierHoops

I have a gazillion Frontier miles..So you can always visit for free from Denver.. My maid is looking around for me.. I'll be here for 2 or 3 years..Why not rent a killer country place?

Sounds interesting. I might take you up on that. We'll talk tomorrow.

207 Dancing along the light of day  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 8:09:35pm

re: #172 Gus 802

OK. Ice should have my number already but I'll forward it to her again.

AHEM!

208 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 8:09:46pm

re: #199 Atlas Fails

Is there anything more adorable than the whole "MLK WAS A REPUBLICAN!!!" rhetoric from teabaggers desperately trying to convince themselves how un-racist they are?

Yeah, I used to be one of those "party of Lincoln" dupes.

They're about as charming as the ones shrieking I'm on the Abortion Genocide Klantation with the rest of the dumb 95%ers if I mash that D button, instead of voting for the party of Lincoln. Which now throws Confederate cotillions but whatever.

209 Gus  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 8:10:27pm

re: #207 Floral Giraffe

AHEM!

Hi Floral. :)

210 A Man for all Seasons  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 8:11:31pm

re: #207 Floral Giraffe

AHEM!

Hi You! How is everything?

211 Gus  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 8:13:11pm

Further reading on the John Lewis thing.

Occupy Atlanta. Good idea, bad implementation

Make sure you also read the last comment.

212 Charles Johnson  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 8:13:35pm

The context missing from Andrew Breitbart's video: WABE: Hundreds Turn Out to 'Occupy Atlanta' (2011-10-08)

The meeting which began at 6pm and went late into the evening was mostly for logistical and planning purposes. Since no one is technically in charge of the group, anyone can have a say and everyone votes on consensus, explains one of the meeting's moderators, a guy in his early 20s named Marlow: "With consensus, the whole group has to make a proposal that everyone in the group is at least ok with".

While going through these rules, Congressman John Lewis emerged, unannounced through the crowd. When a proposal was put forth to allow Lewis to speak about two dozen people raised their hands to block it and one young man voiced his concern: "The point of this general assembly is to kick start a democratic process in which no singular human being is more valuable than any other human being".

They went through this voting process 3 times but the crowd remained divided, eventually deciding that he could speak much later in the agenda. Lewis left without addressing the crowd. Still, he was optimistic about the movement: "In another time in another period when I was very young we participated in a similar process so this is no something strange or out of the ordinary for me."

213 Alexzander  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 8:15:36pm

I'm really glad to see some open-mindedness towards the Occupy Wallstreet protests here at LGF, for all of their pros and cons.

214 darthstar  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 8:16:49pm
215 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 8:17:41pm

re: #198 palomino

And the protesters who don't know about Lewis should be embarrassed.

They should actually go take a community college or university course and educate themselves.

But the movement itself isn't destroyed by this misdeed, as some on the right would have us believe. Any nascent movement will have some big missteps along the way. I just think it's too early to completely write off OWS as a bunch of pinkos, as many on the right would have us do. If nothing else, the target of their anger, Wall St., deserves some vocal opprobrium.

I was looking at the Occupy websites last night for something I'm [supposed to be] working on. OWS is so much bigger than them. I think that's why they're acting out, hoping for them to slip up in any way.

They'll take even a crumb like this John Lewis thing, when John Lewis himself seems to have gotten over it really quick.

216 Alexzander  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 8:18:03pm

re: #214 darthstar

Gentlemen, I give you the most comfortable chair in the world.

Now I am really curious to know what that would feel like.

Currently watching RoboCop for the first time. Starting nightshift at midnight, with a pretty nasty cold. Ugh.

217 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 8:18:20pm

re: #212 Charles

And yet...(and my argument here is not with Charles, but the young man who wanted no one individual to be more important)...an individual can, by their prior actions, be worthy of respect and veneration.

If Rosa Parks, say, had showed up at something like and wanted to speak, she had earned with her courage the right to be heard.

218 reine.de.tout  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 8:20:19pm

re: #217 EmmmieG

And yet...(and my argument here is not with Charles, but the young man who wanted no one individual to be more important)...an individual can, by their prior actions, be worthy of respect and veneration.

If Rosa Parks, say, had showed up at something like and wanted to speak, she had earned with her courage the right to be heard.

Someone in that video acknowledged something along those lines about Lewis. The whole thing looked confusing to me. I wouldn't have lasted long at anything like that.

219 Atlas Fails  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 8:22:11pm

re: #198 palomino

And the protesters who don't know about Lewis should be embarrassed. But the movement itself isn't destroyed by this misdeed, as some on the right would have us believe. Any nascent movement will have some big missteps along the way. I just think it's too early to completely write off OWS as a bunch of pinkos, as many on the right would have us do. If nothing else, the target of their anger, Wall St., deserves some vocal opprobrium.

The hypocrisy is mind-bending. John Lewis was a slandering race-baiter when he accused teabaggers of calling him the n-word, but now that OWS didn't let him speak out of some misplaced sense of "equality," the entire movement is rotten to the core. The Failed Actor and all his parrots can eat a dick as far as I'm concerned.

220 Talking Point Detective  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 8:24:37pm

I don't know if I missed something here, but I watched the video and thought it was entirely clear what the issues were, why they voted the way that they did, and the reasons for the outcome.

He didn't speak because consensus wasn't reached. He was fine with the outcome. He nodded his head, seemingly in approval, as the vote was taking place - in particular when the one participant objected to Lewis speaking because no person should be given preferential treatment over the other members of the group.

The "moonbat" bashing is completely disingenuous, IMO.

I would assume that the context is that he wasn't on the original agenda, but there were some who wanted to let him speak regardless. The only way that change could be made was if there was a consensus.

What fucking problem do people have with that?

221 goddamnedfrank  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 8:25:20pm

re: #217 EmmmieG

And yet...(and my argument here is not with Charles, but the young man who wanted no one individual to be more important)...an individual can, by their prior actions, be worthy of respect and veneration.

If Rosa Parks, say, had showed up at something like and wanted to speak, she had earned with her courage the right to be heard.

The problem with that crowd was nobody in it wanted to stand up publicly and say, "Young man, you are a douchebag. Your douchey little concern has been noted and now we're putting this shit up for a majority vote."

222 Talking Point Detective  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 8:27:05pm

re: #219 Atlas Fails

but now that OWS didn't let him speak out of some misplaced sense of "equality,"

Just curious - do you think that it was a misplaced sense of equality, or are you just paraphrasing the rightwing meme?

223 Gus  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 8:27:43pm

re: #221 goddamnedfrank

The problem with that crowd was nobody in it wanted to stand up publicly and say, "Young man, you are a douchebag. Your douchey little concern has been noted and now we're putting this shit up for a majority vote."

Yes. But isn't that argumentum ad he's a douche?

//

224 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 8:28:08pm

re: #223 Gus 802

Yes. But isn't that argumentum ad he's a douche?

//

A very effective argument, if correct.

225 Alexzander  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 8:28:24pm

re: #220 Talking Point Detective

Outside of the Quakers and anarchists, not too many people are familiar (or have ever participated in) the consensus process.

226 Gus  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 8:29:13pm

Anywho. Here's Lewis's response again but from the OA website...

[Link: ga.occupyatlanta.org...]

227 Charles Johnson  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 8:29:47pm

If John Lewis isn't upset by what happened, I'm not going to get upset either. He was there. I watched a video.

And that video is being hyped like crazy by the same people who smeared John Lewis for saying he was called the N-word by Tea Partiers.

Not gonna fall for this.

228 Gus  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 8:30:23pm

re: #225 Alexzander

Outside of the Quakers and anarchists, not too many people are familiar (or have ever participated in) the consensus process.

Here's the guide...

[Link: takethesquare.net...]

229 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 8:30:55pm

re: #219 Atlas Fails

The hypocrisy is mind-bending. John Lewis was a slandering race-baiter when he accused teabaggers of calling him the n-word, but now that OWS didn't let him speak out of some misplaced sense of "equality," the entire movement is rotten to the core. The Failed Actor and all his parrots can eat a dick as far as I'm concerned.

Who is the "Failed Actor"?

230 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 8:31:15pm

re: #213 Alexzander

I'm really glad to see some open-mindedness towards the Occupy Wallstreet protests here at LGF, for all of their pros and cons.

The things that are said about them by the cons are the same exact things said about every liberal movement since the frickin 1880s. Communist socialist pinko sympathizer violent thugs coming for our fair daughters call the cops where's my guns blah blah...same old shyt, different millennium.

I hope they vote -- I don't even care who they vote for, just effing vote. I think they can get their act together and become a regular political movement, especially for the young people.

231 Gus  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 8:31:30pm

re: #229 Dark_Falcon

Who is the "Failed Actor"?

Why Andrew Breitbart of course.

232 Talking Point Detective  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 8:31:57pm

re: #218 reine.de.tout

Someone in that video acknowledged something along those lines about Lewis. .

Exactly - and others agreed. But not enough for them to reach consensus.

It is entirely reasonable to me that some people objected to rearranging an agenda simply because a politician arrived. Others wanted to let him speak because of his stature - in fact, even the guy who spoke in opposition to having Lewis speak first commented on Lewis' work. It wasn't a lack of respect that was being expressed. Watch the video again. IIRC, Lewis nodded his head in agreement when the one participant said that no one person should have special status as a participant at the rally.

233 goddamnedfrank  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 8:32:06pm

I forgot to take my BP pills this morning, that explains the hyperbolic anger. Just took them and now I've decided I love repeating and can't wait to go out and mindlessly repeat shit in public while getting nothing done. Yay BP pills!

234 Alexzander  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 8:32:28pm

re: #228 Gus 802

Here's the guide...

[Link: takethesquare.net...]

A friend of mine wrote an entire book on the consensus decision making process. Its an awesome ideal but loooooooooong if there is actually a lot of diversity in the discussion.

235 bratwurst  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 8:33:20pm

re: #227 Charles

And that video is being hyped like crazy by the same people who smeared John Lewis for saying he was called the N-word by Tea Partiers.

That is the part I just can't get past myself.

236 Talking Point Detective  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 8:33:42pm

re: #225 Alexzander

Outside of the Quakers and anarchists, not too many people are familiar (or have ever participated in) the consensus process.

True - but I'm not a Quaker and I'm not an anarchist - but the process seems pretty fucking obvious to me from watching the video clip. I mean you don't have to be a Quaker or an anarchist to understand what "consensus" means. Jeebus.

237 goddamnedfrank  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 8:33:55pm

re: #234 Alexzander

A friend of mine wrote an entire book on the consensus decision making process. Its an awesome ideal but looong if there is actually a lot of diversity in the discussion.

All it takes is one contrarian ... look at the Senate and extrapolate from there.

238 Dancing along the light of day  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 8:34:24pm

re: #209 Gus 802

re: #210 HoosierHoops

Knocks the knuckleheads together HARD, then smooches their owies.

239 Talking Point Detective  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 8:34:46pm

re: #234 Alexzander

A friend of mine wrote an entire book on the consensus decision making process. Its an awesome ideal but looong if there is actually a lot of diversity in the discussion.

Yeah - it can be really impractical. But, in fact, they handled it reasonably quickly in that clip all things considered.

240 Gus  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 8:35:22pm

Ugh. BIAB This laptop is doing strange things.

241 sattv4u2  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 8:35:45pm

re: #233 goddamnedfrank

I forgot to take (I FORGOT TO TAKE) my BP pills this morning, (MY BP PILLS THIS MORNING) that explains the hyperbolic anger (THAT EXPLAINS THE HYPERBOLIC ANGER). Just took them (JUST TOOK THEM) and now I've decided (AND NOW I'VE DECIDED) I love repeating (I LOVE REPEATING) and can't wait to go out (AND CAN'T WAIT TO GO OUT)and mindlessly repeat shit (AND MINDLESSLY REEPEAT SHIT) in public (IN PUBLIC) while getting nothing done (WHILE GETTING NOTHING DONE). Yay BP pills! (YA, BP PILLS)

((I really need a hobby!!))

242 Atlas Fails  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 8:36:29pm

This is priceless. Check out some of the comments from Breitbart's own site on the OWS/Lewis video:

When was the last time John Lewis had something worth listening to.

...

I want to know what makes John Lewis a hero? Because he marched? Well thousands of others black and white marched too!

BTW. These people are sheeple. And this is Statism and President Obama is their leader.

...

You right... John Lewis seemed like a great guy back in the '80's... People here thought he, as the 1st Black Georgian Congressman, he would follow in Martin Luther Kings foot steps...

instead, he and Maynard Jackson, Julian Bond and most of the rest of the 'heroes' morphed into Socialist or Marxists!

MLK's niece, Alveta King, says that he would NOT support what these men now represent (race baiting hypocrites). Their actions are antithetical to MLK's "... to be judged by the content of their character and not the color of their skin..."

...

That is unsurprising. MLK also had Marxist associates; it is curious to consider if he had lived, would he have taken a Marxist tack after achieving his more modest goals?

Also just a general comment; this is not necessarily directed @ you. These blacks & white liberals that think of everything in terms of race are the true racists. Racism is the most primitive form of collectivism, as it relies on basic sensory precepts to determine who is your "friend" or "enemy". An infant can perceive the difference between white & black. Individuals like Malcolm X & the new black panthers have not progressed much further than that intellectually. White liberals & black racists such as Sharpton do not even understand the concept of the individual. Thus, the left is flabergasted that Herman Cain was more concerned with a sick relative then being "down for the fight." To them, a black man is incapable of making an independent decision, and instead should follow the herd like everyone else that is of the same color.....

Most despicable, I fail to see how these people can claim the intellectual high-ground in race. They do not even understand the concept of individual rights, and why they are important, yet they lecture us about morality? The INDIVIDUAL is the smallest minority in the world.

...

Frankly, I think "hero" John Lewis is every bit as useless as these grotesquely stupid protestors. What I don't understand is why they didn't welcome him into their midst. Perhaps he smelled too clean?

...

John Lewis is not trusted by America, Congress or his own non-white radical race-baiters international brotherhood of entitlement seekers!

Liberal plants, I'm sure.

243 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 8:36:44pm

I once attended a four hour meeting that could have been done in two. Consensus.

244 Atlas Fails  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 8:37:08pm

re: #229 Dark_Falcon

Who is the "Failed Actor"?

AB.

245 Alexzander  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 8:37:19pm

re: #236 Talking Point Detective

True - but I'm not a Quaker and I'm not an anarchist - but the process seems pretty fucking obvious to me from watching the video clip. I mean you don't have to be a Quaker or an anarchist to understand what "consensus" means. Jeebus.

It might seem obvious enough but a lot of people are very uncomfortable and/or confused by the idea of non-hierarchical decision making. "Where's the leader? Who has the final say? Why doesn't this group recognise my natural authority as a politician?" Yadda yadda.

246 prairiefire  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 8:37:59pm

re: #225 Alexzander

Outside of the Quakers and anarchists, not too many people are familiar (or have ever participated in) the consensus process.

Hope you feel better.

247 tshinkle  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 8:39:21pm

Here are some questions I'd be curious about in your next poll:

1. On a scale of 1-7 should we have more government, more corporations, or neither?
2. On a scale of 1-7 would you rather your next generation of iphone was developed by Apple or the post office?
3. Do you think the computer industry has been more regulated in the last 3 decades or the banking industry?
4. On a scale of 1-7 are you happier with the computer industry or the banking industry?

248 Lidane  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 8:39:30pm

OT, but someone should find video of tonight's SNL opener. They had Mitt Romney facing a room full of Republican voters all asking for someone else to run. Heh.

249 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 8:40:07pm

re: #245 Alexzander

It might seem obvious enough but a lot of people are very uncomfortable and/or confused by the idea of non-hierarchical decision making. "Where's the leader? Who has the final say? Why doesn't this group recognise my natural authority as a politician?" Yadda yadda.

My experience with consensus is that one person will talk until everyone else gives in because they want to go home. Or, they will insist on exploring every last piece of everything, even if trivial or completely unimportant.

I'm a big fan of "everyone gets their say, and then we vote."

250 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 8:40:19pm

re: #231 Gus 802

Why Andrew Breitbart of course.

Thank you.

251 bratwurst  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 8:40:27pm

re: #243 EmmmieG

I once attended a four hour meeting that could have been done in two. Consensus.

Try attending the community college faculty meetings that are mandatory each semester! I have been out of that world for 8 years, but I STILL have nightmares.

252 Talking Point Detective  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 8:41:17pm

re: #245 Alexzander

It might seem obvious enough but a lot of people are very uncomfortable and/or confused by the idea of non-hierarchical decision making. "Where's the leader? Who has the final say? Why doesn't this group recognise my natural authority as a politician?" Yadda yadda.

What's funny about that to me is that I think that most of those people would object to a politician getting preferential treatment in almost any other context.

Lewis, obviously, completely understood, and approved of the process.

The other thing of note, again, is that the person who voiced objection to Lewis speaking stated, specifically, his appreciation for Lewis' work.

253 blueraven  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 8:42:15pm

re: #247 tshinkle

Here are some questions I'd be curious about in your next poll:

1. On a scale of 1-7 should we have more government, more corporations, or neither?
2. On a scale of 1-7 would you rather your next generation of iphone was developed by Apple or the post office?
3. Do you think the computer industry has been more regulated in the last 3 decades or the banking industry?
4. On a scale of 1-7 are you happier with the computer industry or the banking industry?

Do your own damn poll, why dont you.

254 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 8:43:44pm

re: #251 bratwurst

Try attending the community college faculty meetings that are mandatory each semester! I have been out of that world for 8 years, but I STILL have nightmares.

You end up staring at the table, thinking "ShutupshutupshutupIwanttogohomeinthiscenturyshutupshutupshutup."

255 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 8:43:55pm

re: #219 Atlas Fails

The hypocrisy is mind-bending. John Lewis was a slandering race-baiter when he accused teabaggers of calling him the n-word, but now that OWS didn't let him speak out of some misplaced sense of "equality," the entire movement is rotten to the core. The Failed Actor and all his parrots can eat a dick as far as I'm concerned.

That screamy font thing in this post is actually from the Human Events version of the story.

Subhed: It looks racist

Aww, that's sweet, coming from the people who carry Coulter, Newt, and Buchanan.

256 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 8:43:57pm

re: #253 blueraven

Do your own damn poll, why dont you.

Obdicut asked folks as to what questions he should ask. Tshinkle just gave an answer. Agree or disagree, but it was a answer to an asked question

257 sattv4u2  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 8:44:19pm

re: #247 tshinkle


What happened to scales of 1-10?

Deflation!?!?!

258 goddamnedfrank  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 8:44:23pm

re: #245 Alexzander

It might seem obvious enough but a lot of people are very uncomfortable and/or confused by the idea of non-hierarchical decision making. "Where's the leader? Who has the final say? Why doesn't this group recognise my natural authority as a politician?" Yadda yadda.

My experience with effective consensus is on Critical Mass rides, if you're not in front then your opinion on the next turn doesn't count for much. Some people want to be up front, some people don't, but if you're along for the ride then either be along for the ride or drop out and do your own thing.

259 blueraven  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 8:45:38pm

re: #256 Dark_Falcon

Obdicut asked folks as to what questions he should ask. Tshinkle just gave an answer. Agree or disagree, but it was a answer to an asked question

He's a troll DF.

260 Lidane  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 8:47:27pm

SNL is now ripping on Fox & Friends complaining about OWS.

Did you know that the OWS protests are now costing NYC $1 trillion a day? It's true. Haha. And they don't say that Obama is like Hitler. They just imply it.

261 Interesting Times  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 8:50:47pm

re: #259 blueraven

He's a troll DF.

Yes. tshinkle is the same fact-free shill who tried to derail a global warming discussion with talking points so willfully stupid they induce migraines:

Obdicut: The money big oil, coal, and the Koch’s have put towards this argument is a pittance compared to the research grants distributed to those who are on the “correct” side of this conundrum.

"Herpty derp derp, I actually think people at LGF are dumb enough to fall for this crap! Derp."

262 Talking Point Detective  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 8:52:44pm

By the way - the upshot of those video clips combined with the context is unambiguous. Congressman Lewis is a class act.

263 Firstinla  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 8:53:44pm

Great work, Obdi, and thank you.

264 Gus  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 8:54:11pm

re: #255 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

That screamy font thing in this post is actually from the Human Events version of the story.

Subhed: It looks racist

Aww, that's sweet, coming from the people who carry Coulter, Newt, and Buchanan.

Wingnuts concern trolling for John Lewis. Classic. I see one of those was "written" by the infamous Jim "Dim" Hoft.

265 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 8:54:20pm

re: #242 Atlas Fails

This is priceless. Check out some of the comments from Breitbart's own site on the OWS/Lewis video:

When was the last time John Lewis had something worth listening to.

Very timely. Last sentence...

Liberal plants, I'm sure.

Must be.

No conservative thinks like that or would say such things. Only robert byrd margaret sanger progressive hitler libzzz.

266 Lidane  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 8:54:44pm

re: #242 Atlas Fails

Liberal plants, I'm sure.

Oh, definitely. Moby types all around.

///

267 sattv4u2  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 8:54:52pm

And on that note, the long quiet drive home beckons

268 A Man for all Seasons  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 8:57:15pm

Question 1. You have a 100,000 dollars in your bank account
You invest it in:
a. The US Government
b. Wall Street
c. A CD

2. You spent 3 weeks at Wall Street protesting
you are what?
a. 1 credit shy of a BA in Political Science
b. Saving the world one chant at a time
c. Programming your Android phone to show all the nearest Showers

3. You have tweeted the next protest location:
a. Seattle works and they have great coffee
b. Greece.. Cause effen it.. They know how to throw a party
c. San Fran.. Go big or go home

/

269 laZardo  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 8:58:16pm

re: #268 HoosierHoops

a. Seattle works and they have great coffee

/

Still haven't gotten my coffee. ;_;

270 b_sharp  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 8:58:43pm

re: #256 Dark_Falcon

Obdicut asked folks as to what questions he should ask. Tshinkle just gave an answer. Agree or disagree, but it was a answer to an asked question

Those questions were not made in good faith, they were designed to ridicule anyone agreeing with regulating banks.

271 Dancing along the light of day  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 9:00:12pm

re: #268 HoosierHoops

Hello, you!

272 Interesting Times  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 9:00:58pm

re: #266 Lidane

Oh, definitely. Moby types all around.

And you know what's so utterly galling about that argument? It's yet another marcher in the endless parade of wingnut projection:

Murphy: Right, right. We’ll back you any way we can. But what we were thinking about the crowd was, uh, was planting some troublemakers.

Walker: You know, well, the only problem with that — because we thought about that.

273 A Man for all Seasons  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 9:01:34pm

re: #271 Floral Giraffe

Hello, you!

Hi Beautiful.. Hope today finds you well

274 Gus  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 9:01:40pm

I miss the old days when some misogynist troll would show up and invariably bring up how divorce law is biased against men.

For 6 hours straight.

//

275 b_sharp  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 9:02:42pm

Obdicut, that was some very good honest work. I knew there was a reason I liked you.

Those results should now be put into percentages and graphed.

276 Henchman Ghazi-808  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 9:04:55pm

Inspired by Obdicut I created a page.

277 Interesting Times  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 9:05:40pm

re: #274 Gus 802

I miss the old days when some misogynist troll would show up and invariably bring up how divorce law is biased against men.

Ha, I remember that guy. Isn't it interesting how he dropped off the face of the Earth (in terms of comments here) after A. Breivik's massacre?

278 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 9:06:16pm

re: #247 tshinkle

Here are some questions I'd be curious about in your next poll:

2. On a scale of 1-7 would you rather your next generation of iphone was developed by Apple or the post office?

Dang, talk about apples and post offices...

279 Gus  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 9:07:53pm

re: #277 publicityStunted

Ha, I remember that guy. Isn't it interesting how he dropped off the face of the Earth (in terms of comments here) after A. Breivik's massacre?

Oh yeah. He was more recent. The gender feminists are taking over teh world!! There was some other nut that did that for almost a day. I think he claimed to be an attorney or something. Couple of years ago.

280 b_sharp  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 9:08:10pm

Oh, by the way D_F and tshinkle_troll, Canada has weathered the 2008 recession better than the US and will likely be minimally affected by what is going on right now because our banking system is more highly regulated than the US's.

281 Obdicut  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 9:08:48pm

re: #270 b_sharp

Those questions were not made in good faith, they were designed to ridicule anyone agreeing with regulating banks.

They're just idiotic. Banks obviously need an entirely different kind of form of regulation than the 'computer industry'.

Which is, actually, pretty highly regulated. Everything from the crypto abilities it has to the broadcast frequencies it's allowed to put out, to the way that you're allowed to store and use data on it is subject to regulation.

And government has designed all sorts of awesome shit. Like, say, the first electronic digital computers.

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

So, yeah, that guy is a moron.

I'm going to bed soon, so sorry I can't address anything brought up in this thread, but thanks for participating.

282 Gus  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 9:09:29pm

re: #278 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

Dang, talk about apples and post offices...

On a scale of 1 to 7 would you rather your snail mail was delivered by Apple or the USPS?

//

283 Gus  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 9:10:16pm

Would you rather your car was designed by BMW or the Forrest Service?

Hmmm? Hmmm? Please give me an answer now!

//

284 Interesting Times  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 9:10:37pm

re: #280 b_sharp

Oh, by the way D_F and tshinkle_troll, Canada has weathered the 2008 recession better than the US and will likely be minimally affected by what is going on right now because our banking system is more highly regulated than the US's.

Canada's banking system is boring. As it should be. Innovation belongs in science, not finance!

285 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 9:10:49pm

re: #283 Gus 802

Would you rather your car was designed by BMW or the Forrest Service?

Hmmm? Hmmm? Please give me an answer now!

//

Where is it going?

286 Alexzander  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 9:12:20pm

re: #282 Gus 802

On a scale of 1 to 7 would you rather your snail mail was delivered by Apple or the USPS?

//

Yes.

287 bratwurst  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 9:13:36pm

On a scale of 1-7 would you rather have big business, big government, or a poke in the eye with a blunt stick?

288 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 9:13:38pm

re: #282 Gus 802

On a scale of 1 to 7 would you rather your snail mail was delivered by Apple or the USPS?

//

I like turtles.

289 goddamnedfrank  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 9:14:10pm

re: #270 b_sharp

Those questions were not made in good faith, they were designed to ridicule anyone agreeing with regulating banks.

I like how question 1 has three elements on a single axis.

290 Gus  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 9:16:14pm

re: #280 b_sharp

Oh, by the way D_F and tshinkle_troll, Canada has weathered the 2008 recession better than the US and will likely be minimally affected by what is going on right now because our banking system is more highly regulated than the US's.

...

You lie! The recession was caused by regulation brought to you by the Democrat Party and banks being forced to give mortgages to any INNER CITY PERSON around the country!!11ty It was also caused by homosexuals, librul Hollywood and Moozlims!!11ty

291 Interesting Times  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 9:16:26pm

re: #287 bratwurst

On a scale of 1-7 would you rather have big business, big government, or a poke in the eye with a blunt stick?

Oh dear, is this going to be another penis gourd discussion?

292 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 9:18:27pm

re: #282 Gus 802

On a scale of 1 to 7 would you rather your snail mail was delivered by Apple or the USPS?

//

rotfl

293 BishopX  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 9:20:50pm

re: #291 publicityStunted

No we're on sword fish now...

294 b_sharp  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 9:21:22pm

re: #291 publicityStunted

Oh dear, is this going to be another penis gourd discussion?

And what would be wrong with that?

295 tshinkle  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 9:22:02pm

re: #282 Gus 802

On a scale of 1 to 7 would you rather your snail mail was delivered by Apple or the USPS?

//

Apple. No question...you?

296 b_sharp  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 9:22:46pm

re: #288 EmmmieG

I like turtles.

All the way down, no doubt.

297 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 9:23:47pm

re: #283 Gus 802

On a scale of 1-7 would you rather have your government run as a government or as a business, of which 50% fail in the first five years.

298 Four More Tears  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 9:25:17pm

re: #295 tshinkle

Apple. No question...you?

I'd go with Apple, but they would probably refuse to deliver my PC Mag...

299 BishopX  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 9:25:25pm

re: #295 tshinkle

I like receiving my amazon packages un-sledgehammered thank you very much!

300 Gus  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 9:25:25pm

re: #295 tshinkle

Apple. No question...you?

Umm. I don't think Apple is applying for that job. Apple makes, well, Apple computers. The USPS will take your letter and pick it up from your house. Drive it across the USA to any location in the USA and deliver it almost literally into the addressees hands. All for under 1 dollar.

301 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 9:25:44pm

re: #295 tshinkle

Apple. No question...you?

Good luck with that. Hope you're not expecting any mail soon, since they don't look to be going into the mail business any time soon either.

302 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 9:25:48pm

re: #280 b_sharp

Oh, by the way D_F and tshinkle_troll, Canada has weathered the 2008 recession better than the US and will likely be minimally affected by what is going on right now because our banking system is more highly regulated than the US's.

That is a truth. Some of it is also that Canada did not allow its its standards for giving mortgages to drop like the US did (America's failure on that score is a complex question that I am not addressing in this post. Whoever you blame, the fact is that standards did drop and it had a baleful result.). I'm not saying I favor additional regulation, though. But I try not to pretend that facts do not exist.

303 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 9:27:05pm

re: #293 BishopX

No we're on sword fish now...

We can't do that now. It's too late to fire up the grill.

304 Gus  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 9:27:45pm

re: #301 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

Good luck with that. Hope you're not expecting any mail soon, since they don't look to be going into the mail business any time soon either.

FedEx will do it for ya'. It'll cost ya' though. At least 10 bucks a pop.

I can see it now. "Get rid of the USPS," cried the Tea Party!

Next day they have no USPS and that letter that used to cost under a buck to mail is now well over 10 bucks a pop.

305 Four More Tears  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 9:27:51pm

re: #301 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

Good luck with that. Hope you're not expecting any mail soon, since they don't look to be going into the mail business any time soon either.

No, Apple tends to stick to profitable ventures...

306 palomino  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 9:28:23pm

re: #295 tshinkle

Apple. No question...you?

Maybe we should have Apple take over the police and fire depts as well. The military too. Apple for President 2012!

307 Gus  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 9:28:59pm

re: #305 JasonA

No, Apple tends to stick to profitable ventures...

They can thank Chinese slave labor for that.

//Jumps into foxhole.

308 b_sharp  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 9:29:16pm

When OWS started, part of their anger was directed against the banking community being rewarded instead of punished for their dishonesty in starting the recession. What happened to that argument?

309 Gus  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 9:30:47pm

Now I've done it. I'm going to have the Apple black helicopters hovering over me any second now and the "Apple Truth Squad" is going to breakdown my door.

//

310 laZardo  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 9:30:58pm

re: #308 b_sharp

When OWS started, part of their anger was directed against the banking community being rewarded instead of punished for their dishonesty in starting the recession. What happened to that argument?

It's still there, at least from my POV. We marched to the Bank of America building and protested out there for about 30 minutes before returning to Westlake plaza.

311 Four More Tears  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 9:32:54pm

re: #309 Gus 802

Now I've done. I'm going to have the Apple black helicopters hovering over me any second now and the "Apple Truth Squad" is going to breakdown my door.

//

Nah, they'll just get the real police to knock on it, then Apple employees will search your house.

No snark. They just did that this summer. Though unless you have an iPhone prototype you should be in the clear...

312 Gus  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 9:33:45pm

re: #310 laZardo

It's still there, at least from my POV. We marched to the Bank of America building and protested out there for about 30 minutes before returning to Westlake plaza.

You know. Everyone hates BOA. Especially now given this 5 dollar debt card charge they plan on implementing.

A couple of years ago all of the wingnuts hated BOA because they were giving credit card accounts to "illegal immigrants Mexicans"!!11ty You know. Think Michelle Malkin, Vdare, Minutemen, et al.

Fast forward to 2011 and the wingnuts are back to "loving" BOA.

Go figure.

And yet most Americans will tell ya', "BOA sucks."

313 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 9:33:56pm

re: #305 JasonA

No, Apple tends to stick to profitable ventures...

The USPS is just too dumb to get into the iPhone business, I guess.

/ < --- can barely believe we are having this conversation

314 b_sharp  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 9:34:46pm

re: #302 Dark_Falcon

That is a truth. Some of it is also that Canada did not allow its its standards for giving mortgages to drop like the US did (America's failure on that score is a complex question that I am not addressing in this post. Whoever you blame, the fact is that standards did drop and it had a baleful result.). I'm not saying I favor additional regulation, though. But I try not to pretend that facts do not exist.

There are some areas where regulations have to exist. They do need to be appropriate for the industry, and they certainly can't be frivolous - existing for their own sake. Adding regulations just for the sake of adding regulations is just as bad as removing regulations because of some ideological hatred of regulation.

315 b_sharp  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 9:36:06pm

re: #304 Gus 802

FedEx will do it for ya'. It'll cost ya' though. At least 10 bucks a pop.

I can see it now. "Get rid of the USPS," cried the Tea Party!

Next day they have no USPS and that letter that used to cost under a buck to mail is now well over 10 bucks a pop.

And FedEx does not deliver to all areas the USPS does.

316 Gus  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 9:37:17pm

re: #315 b_sharp

And FedEx does not deliver to all areas the USPS does.

I think the bottom line is that USPS has to finally start charging a little more than pocket change. Maybe take it up to something like 2 dollars a letter? That would still be a bargain considering what they do.

317 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 9:37:29pm

re: #315 b_sharp

And FedEx does not deliver to all areas the USPS does.

PO Boxes, either.

318 Gus  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 9:38:33pm

2 bucks. They pick it up from your address and deliver it to any of the contiguous states within about 5 days. Seems like a deal to me.

319 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 9:38:42pm

Well, I"m back.

what have we learned since I left?

320 b_sharp  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 9:38:50pm

re: #310 laZardo

It's still there, at least from my POV. We marched to the Bank of America building and protested out there for about 30 minutes before returning to Westlake plaza.

I noticed the FOXites and clones have fiercely ignored that point.

321 Gus  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 9:39:09pm

re: #319 ggt

Well, I"m back.

what have we learned since I left?

Apple isn't in the mail business.

322 Four More Tears  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 9:39:56pm

re: #316 Gus 802

I think the bottom line is that USPS has to finally start charging a little more than pocket change. Maybe take it up to something like 2 dollars a letter? That would still be a bargain considering what they do.

I can also get behind dropping Saturday delivery. Hey, big changes really have to be made.

323 What, me worry?  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 9:41:52pm

re: #312 Gus 802

You know. Everyone hates BOA. Especially now given this 5 dollar debt card charge they plan on implementing.

A couple of years ago all of the wingnuts hated BOA because they were giving credit card accounts to "illegal immigrants Mexicans"!!11ty You know. Think Michelle Malkin, Vdare, Minutemen, et al.

Fast forward to 2011 and the wingnuts are back to "loving" BOA.

Go figure.

And yet most Americans will tell ya', "BOA sucks."

In reality, they all suck. The national banks are indistinguishable.

I'm probably more upset with the mortgage fiasco than anything else. As messed up as the bailouts were, they were probably necessary. Made necessary because of their own greed, incompetence? I don't know.

But if the OWS movement is somehow morphing into a libertarian or "get rid of all government" group, than I'm not interested. Or was that what is always was?

324 Gus  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 9:42:18pm

Let me see if I have this right. According to the wingnuts there should never have been a TARP. Basically that would have meant besides all of going under (think retirement funds, pensions, etc.) so would have many if not most banks. Yet now. These same wingnuts are defending banks who gladly took the TARP money to stay afloat (allegedly). So they claim to "love" these banks yet were against something that the banks lobbied for desperately in 2008 and that being TARP money.

Huh?

325 b_sharp  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 9:43:52pm

re: #323 marjoriemoon

In reality, they all suck. The national banks are indistinguishable.

I'm probably more upset with the mortgage fiasco than anything else. As messed up as the bailouts were, they were probably necessary. Made necessary because of their own greed, incompetence? I don't know.

But if the OWS movement is somehow morphing into a libertarian or "get rid of all government" group, than I'm not interested. Or was that what is always was?

The OWS is made up of a pile of different groups so you should be able to find something to agree with.

326 Kragar  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 9:43:57pm

The bottom line is that congress forced the USPS to pay for 75 years of benefits in advance.

A Manufactured ‘Crisis’: Congress Can Let The Post Office Save Itself Without Mass Layoffs Or Service Reductions

Congress passed the Postal Accountability and Enhancement Act of 2006 (PAEA). Under PAEA, USPS was forced to “prefund its future health care benefit payments to retirees for the next 75 years in an astonishing ten-year time span” — meaning that it had to put aside billions of dollars to pay for the health benefits of employees it hasn’t even hired yet, something “that no other government or private corporation is required to do.”

As consumer advocate Ralph Nader noted, if PAEA was never enacted, USPS would actually be facing a $1.5 billion surplus today:

By June 2011, the USPS saw a total net deficit of $19.5 billion, $12.7 billion of which was borrowed money from Treasury (leaving just $2.3 billion left until the USPS hits its statutory borrowing limit of $15 billion). This $19.5 billion deficit almost exactly matches the $20.95 billion the USPS made in prepayments to the fund for future retiree health care benefits by June 2011. If the prepayments required under PAEA were never enacted into law, the USPS would not have a net deficiency of nearly $20 billion, but instead be in the black by at least $1.5 billion.

327 Gus  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 9:43:59pm

re: #323 marjoriemoon

In reality, they all suck. The national banks are indistinguishable.

I'm probably more upset with the mortgage fiasco than anything else. As messed up as the bailouts were, they were probably necessary. Made necessary because of their own greed, incompetence? I don't know.

But if the OWS movement is somehow morphing into a libertarian or "get rid of all government" group, than I'm not interested. Or was that what is always was?

I don't know. I get the feeling that the OWS protests will come to a final end pretty soon. Maybe something will come out of it. It's good to see young people getting involved though. I'm kind of in slumbering mode now so I can't really give a straight opinion.

328 Gus  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 9:45:38pm

re: #324 Gus 802

Let me see if I have this right. According to the wingnuts there should never have been a TARP. Basically that would have meant besides all of going under (think retirement funds, pensions, etc.) so would have many if not most banks. Yet now. These same wingnuts are defending banks who gladly took the TARP money to stay afloat (allegedly). So they claim to "love" these banks yet were against something that the banks lobbied for desperately in 2008 and that being TARP money.

Huh?

This actually reminds me of how these same wingnuts say they love Israel.

Yet they can't wait for it to be destroyed because it will signal the return of God and the coming rapture. Or something to that effect.

It's like this passive/aggressive relationship they have with things.

329 Four More Tears  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 9:45:57pm

re: #326 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

The bottom line is that congress forced the USPS to pay for 75 years of benefits in advance.

A Manufactured ‘Crisis’: Congress Can Let The Post Office Save Itself Without Mass Layoffs Or Service Reductions

Bravo, Congress. Bravo.

330 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 9:46:15pm

re: #323 marjoriemoon

In reality, they all suck. The national banks are indistinguishable.

I'm probably more upset with the mortgage fiasco than anything else. As messed up as the bailouts were, they were probably necessary. Made necessary because of their own greed, incompetence? I don't know.

But if the OWS movement is somehow morphing into a libertarian or "get rid of all government" group, than I'm not interested. Or was that what is always was?

Hard to say what it is, I think.

My view is, they are going to have to kick that "end the fed" element out to get more of a diverse and substantial crowd. I hope they will, at least; it seems to have eclipsed the ANSWER/WPP crankage phase.

331 b_sharp  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 9:46:52pm

re: #327 Gus 802

I don't know. I get the feeling that the OWS protests will come to a final end pretty soon. Maybe something will come out of it. It's good to see young people getting involved though. I'm kind of in slumbering mode now so I can't really give a straight opinion.

Hell, I'm always half asleep.
Glad you're back BTW.

332 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 9:47:26pm

re: #324 Gus 802

Let me see if I have this right. According to the wingnuts there should never have been a TARP. Basically that would have meant besides all of going under (think retirement funds, pensions, etc.) so would have many if not most banks. Yet now. These same wingnuts are defending banks who gladly took the TARP money to stay afloat (allegedly). So they claim to "love" these banks yet were against something that the banks lobbied for desperately in 2008 and that being TARP money.

Huh?

It's fucked anyway you look at it.

Banks were under pressure to increase profits by getting into the derivatives market. Too much money was being made all around for anyone with authority to stop it to do so.

Now, as usual, the rank-n'-file are paying the price. Some deserve it, IMHO, those who signed mortgage papers they knew they couldn't afford. Most don't understand or want to understand the Truth and Lending Statement-as simple as it is.

We the people are ultimately responsible for not policing government and we are paying the price. It would be nice, however, if some of our elected officials admitted they fucked-up and are no longer worthy of the trust we instill in them. It would be nice if we could know how much money some of them made in this fiasco. . . .

333 Altermite  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 9:47:35pm

My credit union is now offering me interest in my checking account that is high enough to be competitive with almost anywhere else I can put money, so long as I use my checking account a couple times a week.

I bought a checkbook and moved most of my short term savings there.

I really, really don't get why people don't go to credit unions.

334 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 9:47:42pm

re: #314 b_sharp

There are some areas where regulations have to exist. They do need to be appropriate for the industry, and they certainly can't be frivolous - existing for their own sake. Adding regulations just for the sake of adding regulations is just as bad as removing regulations because of some ideological hatred of regulation.

Very true. I think part of the problem here in the US is well described by Canadian author and National Post columnist Jonathan Kay in his book Among the Truthers, his point being that too many political debates in the US become "a screaming match about which of the Founding Fathers are being made to spin in their graves and by whom."

And honestly, I don't see "Occupy Wall Street" as being able to effect that situation. They have left-wing crazies in with them. Not too many, its true, but enough of them that not even David Frum conservatives will trust them. And honestly, their lack of leadership hurts too. Financial regulations are not things that can be solved with a large, public meeting. In the end, they are things that get decided by a relatively small number of people in a discussion room that will be closed to the public. The public gets to elect many of the people who will have the discussions, but they cannot play a direct part of the actual discussion.

335 What, me worry?  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 9:48:11pm

re: #325 b_sharp

re: #327 Gus 802

Overall I like seeing the liberal side of it, compared to the TPers. So that's cool. I've been having a hard time deciphering the message(s) though. Maybe because there are many.

336 b_sharp  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 9:48:25pm

re: #328 Gus 802

This actually reminds me of how these same wingnuts say they love Israel.

Yet they can't wait for it to be destroyed because it will signal the return of God and the coming rapture. Or something to that effect.

It's like this passive/aggressive relationship they have with things.

They see everything in black and white.

337 Atlas Fails  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 9:48:31pm

re: #326 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

The bottom line is that congress forced the USPS to pay for 75 years of benefits in advance.

A Manufactured ‘Crisis’: Congress Can Let The Post Office Save Itself Without Mass Layoffs Or Service Reductions

How many jobs did this create?

338 Gus  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 9:48:41pm

re: #331 b_sharp

Hell, I'm always half asleep.
Glad you're back BTW.

Tanks. I couldn't take it anymore lurking. My head almost exploded. So, I came back and was ready to down ding after I made my initial statement. Didn't do that. I just down dinged one dummy today and that was this fruitcake.

339 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 9:49:33pm

re: #318 Gus 802

2 bucks. They pick it up from your address and deliver it to any of the contiguous states within about 5 days. Seems like a deal to me.

That would be a good idea.

Also, though you won't like it, I think they will have to get rid of "no layoff" clauses in their union contracts. The USPS is going to need the flexibility to lay off workers who are not needed.

340 laZardo  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 9:49:57pm

re: #333 Altermite

I really, really don't get why people don't go to credit unions.

Non-credit-union-ATM fees.

There, I said it. ;_;

Though a guy with a "Credit Union!" sign did mention that BECU cards can be used at any credit union ATM without fees, though I'll have to check.

341 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 9:50:35pm

re: #338 Gus 802

Tanks. I couldn't take it anymore lurking. My head almost exploded. So, I came back and was ready to down ding after I made my initial statement. Didn't do that. I just down dinged one dummy today and that was this fruitcake.

did anyone ever manage to decipher that?

342 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 9:51:48pm

Frank is rockin' upstairs -------->

343 Gus  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 9:53:34pm

re: #335 marjoriemoon

re: #327 Gus 802

Overall I like seeing the liberal side of it, compared to the TPers. So that's cool. I've been having a hard time deciphering the message(s) though. Maybe because there are many.

I like that they're finally doing something. Anything. That there's this feeling of anger or emotion. We all should have gotten angry about what they did that caused the meltdown in 2008. I can't believe how passive we Americans can become. Especially after seeing the protests and tent cities in Tel Aviv. I was thinking to myself "but what about us?" I really would like to see less police baiting though but that's not really too much of a concern. The cops really haven't hurt anyone too bad as far as I can tell. And. The protesters have been by and large very peaceful. It really has been rather quiet overall if we look at things more closely.

344 b_sharp  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 9:53:57pm

re: #338 Gus 802

Tanks. I couldn't take it anymore lurking. My head almost exploded. So, I came back and was ready to down ding after I made my initial statement. Didn't do that. I just down dinged one dummy today and that was this fruitcake.

How did you understand what was said? It looked like an incoherent verbal mish-mash to me.

345 goddamnedfrank  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 9:54:28pm

re: #341 ggt

did anyone ever manage to decipher that?

Dunno, but "the Reformies" is my new band name. We're a klezmer / John Zorn's Cobra fusion group. Look for our album the racist blue blood racism of america on iTunes.

346 Altermite  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 9:54:36pm

re: #334 Dark_Falcon

They are using committees to try to target that.re: #340 laZardo

Non-credit-union-ATM fees.

There, I said it. ;_;

Though a guy with a "Credit Union!" sign did mention that BECU cards can be used at any credit union ATM without fees, though I'll have to check.

Yeah, almost any credit union has a network agreement with others that allows you to avoid atm fees, though you might have to detour an extra 5 minutes. (There are three within a mile of where I live in philly, though there is an atm on almost every block). I didn't know about it until I called in, but apparently its pretty standard now.

347 lostlakehiker  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 9:55:22pm

re: #256 Dark_Falcon

Obdicut asked folks as to what questions he should ask. Tshinkle just gave an answer. Agree or disagree, but it was a answer to an asked question

It wasn't, of course. But it was an observation. Big Government might not be the answer.

348 Gus  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 9:57:31pm

re: #344 b_sharp

How did you understand what was said? It looked like an incoherent verbal mish-mash to me.

Oh. I gathered he meant that since they're lefty Jews that they're also reform Jews. And something about reform Jews supporting Norman Finkelstein and Noam Chomsky. Which is of course complete and utter bullshit.

349 Gus  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 9:58:33pm

re: #348 Gus 802

Oh. I gathered he meant that since they're lefty Jews that they're also reform Jews. And something about reform Jews supporting Norman Finkelstein and Noam Chomsky. Which is of course complete and utter bullshit.

Close approximation. I really didn't get what he meant 100 percent. Hence, the "fruitcake" identifier.

350 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 9:58:46pm

re: #333 Altermite

My credit union is now offering me interest in my checking account that is high enough to be competitive with almost anywhere else I can put money, so long as I use my checking account a couple times a week.

I bought a checkbook and moved most of my short term savings there.

I really, really don't get why people don't go to credit unions.

My bank is so freaking convenient, reliable and the people there are sane.

I'm afraid to leave.

351 What, me worry?  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 10:01:08pm

re: #343 Gus 802

I like that they're finally doing something. Anything. That there's this feeling of anger or emotion. We all should have gotten angry about what they did that caused the meltdown in 2008. I can't believe how passive we Americans can become. Especially after seeing the protests and tent cities in Tel Aviv. I was thinking to myself "but what about us?" I really would like to see less police baiting though but that's not really too much of a concern. The cops really haven't hurt anyone too bad as far as I can tell. And. The protesters have been by and large very peaceful. It really has been rather quiet overall if we look at things more closely.

I'm with you. Though I think the cops did hurt people, but yea, overall, it's been pretty peaceful.

Everyone is angry. The right and the left, both. But if you're going to have a mob, you have to have a specific message. That's what disturbed me about the video with John Lewis. Well, one thing that disturbed me. No leaders ends up becoming no direction and then it just falls apart.

352 lostlakehiker  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 10:01:54pm

re: #308 b_sharp

When OWS started, part of their anger was directed against the banking community being rewarded instead of punished for their dishonesty in starting the recession. What happened to that argument?

It misasigns much of the blame. The banks, and other lenders, were encouraged almost to the point of compulsion to do that.

353 mikiesmoky2  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 10:03:07pm

Great post.

Do you have a phone number of someone (leadership type) to contact?

Thankx

mz

354 b_sharp  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 10:04:59pm

re: #353 mikiesmoky2

Great post.

Do you have a phone number of someone (leadership type) to contact?

Thankx

mz

???

355 What, me worry?  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 10:05:42pm

re: #351 marjoriemoon

I'm with you. Though I think the cops did hurt people, but yea, overall, it's been pretty peaceful.

Everyone is angry. The right and the left, both. But if you're going to have a mob, you have to have a specific message. That's what disturbed me about the video with John Lewis. Well, one thing that disturbed me. No leaders ends up becoming no direction and then it just falls apart.

But THEN... in the video where they asked Lewis what he thought about OWS Atlanta, he was so gracious about it and made a reference to them finding their way or maturing. Class act, that man.

356 chunkymonkey  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 10:07:00pm
Question 7: The Federal Reserve should be ended.

1. (definitely do not agree) 8
2. 10
3. 8
4. 6
5. 4
7: 29

(None of the people who said 7 could explain what the fed does.)

Did you find out if any of the people who answered 1-6 could explain what the fed does? If not, why did you only ask the folks who answered 7?

Question 5: Do you feel corporations should continue to have rights derived from the rights of citizens? Do you think the 14th amendment should apply to corporations?

Yes: 6

No: 64

Don’t know: 18

Did you ask any of the folks who answered yes or no if they could explain how the 14th amendment might apply to corporations? Or why it should or should not apply?

357 blueraven  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 10:07:31pm

re: #334 Dark_Falcon

Very true. I think part of the problem here in the US is well described by Canadian author and National Post columnist Jonathan Kay in his book Among the Truthers, his point being that too many political debates in the US become "a screaming match about which of the Founding Fathers are being made to spin in their graves and by whom."

And honestly, I don't see "Occupy Wall Street" as being able to effect that situation. They have left-wing crazies in with them. Not too many, its true, but enough of them that not even David Frum conservatives will trust them. And honestly, their lack of leadership hurts too. Financial regulations are not things that can be solved with a large, public meeting. In the end, they are things that get decided by a relatively small number of people in a discussion room that will be closed to the public. The public gets to elect many of the people who will have the discussions, but they cannot play a direct part of the actual discussion.

What???

First of all, they, OWS, are not there to solve the problem. They are there to bring it to the attention of all, to change the debate.
And we damn well do play a part in the discussion. At least we should.

358 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 10:10:12pm

re: #356 chunkymonkey

Did you ask any of the folks who answered yes or no if they could explain how the 14th amendment might apply to corporations? Or why it should or should not apply?

What say ye?

359 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 10:11:34pm

re: #357 blueraven

What???

First of all, they, OWS, are not there to solve the problem.

Yeah but let's just declare it a failure anyway.

/ihopeihopeihopeihope

360 CuriousLurker  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 10:44:37pm

Excellent job, Obdi—thanks.

361 Let'sTalk  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 10:56:15pm

Oh Crap, I Have A Crush on Sarah Palin
re: #6 Let'sTalk

That, to me, sounds like a red herring.
Voter apathy should be rejected. Everyone eligible should go and vote.

AND

funky chicken
Hey, if we'd all work for $2.50 and hour and demand no environmental protection or access to medical care, we could have full employment! What greedy bastards we 99% are, huh?


I just got home from a general assembly meeting, so I failed to respond to these posts; It may be too late in the game for anyone to care by now, but for the record;

Voter apathy is not/ will not be a problem. I for one have voted in every election since the 70s, and I don’t intend to stop. But you have to admit that our votes haven’t made a lot of difference. I don’t consider Obama ‘the bad guy’ but he has continued some of Bush's policies. And we still don’t have jobs. He bailed out the banks instead of the people the banks robbed, banks are still foreclosing on homes they don’t even own, and troops in Afghanistan have increased. I’ll vote. But long before that, I’ll demonstrate and support Occupy Wall Street.

@funky chicken, I think your sarcasm is right on. That’s exactly what Wall Street is aiming for; bust the unions, gut the educations system, privatize everything, and on and on and on. Crush the working man and buy the competition. And buy the police force while you’re at it. Considering that J.P.Morgan Chase just donated $4.6 million dollars to the NYPD.

362 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 11:21:16pm
None of the people who said 7 could explain what the fed does.

Sounds like some serious public education is in order. Preferably not from Ron Paul, Lew Rockwell, Alex Jones and that ilk…

363 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 11:38:37pm

re: #68 BishopX

It's a way of amplifying so people in the back can hear. Cheaper than using a sound system.

It's also used to circumvent local bans on such sound systems, like bull horns for example.

364 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sun, Oct 9, 2011 12:09:38am

re: #174 laZardo

Best line from a pamphlet goes to the anarchists:

The Nazis had laws too.

I think this is a good explanation of why so many anarchists tend to end up… conservative. Because without laws, all you can rely on for rules of social conduct is obedience regarding morals and commands.

365 boxhead  Sun, Oct 9, 2011 12:21:03am

good early morning all.. nice to see gus has been posting.. :)

366 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sun, Oct 9, 2011 12:39:13am

re: #242 Atlas Fails

This is priceless. Check out some of the comments from Breitbart's own site on the OWS/Lewis video:

...

...

...

...

...

Liberal plants, I'm sure.

Heh. Expected and par for the course.

367 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sun, Oct 9, 2011 12:48:01am

re: #255 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

That screamy font thing in this post is actually from the Human Events version of the story.

Subhed: It looks racist

Aww, that's sweet, coming from the people who carry Coulter, Newt, and Buchanan.

By Jim "Dim" Hoft, nonetheless.

368 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sun, Oct 9, 2011 1:01:30am

re: #300 Gus 802

Umm. I don't think Apple is applying for that job. Apple makes, well, Apple computers. The USPS will take your letter and pick it up from your house. Drive it across the USA to any location in the USA and deliver it almost literally into the addressees hands. All for under 1 dollar.

Another important thing, too, is that the USPS is a government agency. It can be reasonably expected to responsibly handle material that is important for official relations between citizens and government.

Do you really want to have to rely on a private company to handle mail with your social security number or other sensitive information in it?

369 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sun, Oct 9, 2011 1:09:26am

re: #314 b_sharp

There are some areas where regulations have to exist. They do need to be appropriate for the industry, and they certainly can't be frivolous - existing for their own sake. Adding regulations just for the sake of adding regulations is just as bad as removing regulations because of some ideological hatred of regulation.

And this is where the debate has to get into the details of the matter in order to figure out the legitimate functions of government that all sides except the anarchists agree can exist in principle. But getting into the details of the matter often runs contrary to pre-assumed ideological positions (and involves learning, which is, yknow, work). And that's where the lying, the obfuscation, the blathering begins. Anything to save personal careers & identities.

370 boxhead  Sun, Oct 9, 2011 1:11:06am

re: #368 000G

Another important thing, too, is that the USPS is a government agency. It can be reasonably expected to responsibly handle material that is important for official relations between citizens and government.

Do you really want to have to rely on a private company to handle mail with your social security number or other sensitive information in it?

absolutely not. The ability to send messages is a vital task of a government run by free people. When I hear from people that they believe the USPS is non essential boggles my mind. The Founders of this Nation believed so which is why the creation of the USPS is in the Constitution. But of course the USPS needs to be recreated in a sense so that it will serve us in this modern world. And also be allowed to innovate without being held to 18th Century standards.

edited to remove silly typos...

371 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sun, Oct 9, 2011 1:11:25am

re: #318 Gus 802

2 bucks. They pick it up from your address and deliver it to any of the contiguous states within about 5 days. Seems like a deal to me.

Just raise the damn taxes. USPS is there for the general welfare of the people.

372 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sun, Oct 9, 2011 1:16:07am

re: #323 marjoriemoon

I'm probably more upset with the mortgage fiasco than anything else. As messed up as the bailouts were, they were probably necessary. Made necessary because of their own greed, incompetence? I don't know.

You should know.

"Greed" is always something somebody else does. It's a moralistic and simplistic argument. It holds no appeal but an emotional one.

"Incompetence" was involved for a lot of people, but reckless endangerment was only part of the problem.

The core problem was fraud, pure and simple. People need to start realizing this and find out the details of the operations. Legal recourse is possible.

373 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sun, Oct 9, 2011 1:20:18am

re: #324 Gus 802

Let me see if I have this right. According to the wingnuts there should never have been a TARP. Basically that would have meant besides all of going under (think retirement funds, pensions, etc.) so would have many if not most banks. Yet now. These same wingnuts are defending banks who gladly took the TARP money to stay afloat (allegedly). So they claim to "love" these banks yet were against something that the banks lobbied for desperately in 2008 and that being TARP money.

Huh?

They fear the Marxists redistributing the wealth of the TARP money. They'd rather the banks keep it if the only alternative would be that dirty Marxists would have a say in what to do with it.

Of course, the wingnuts' dream is still that no TARP had happened at all. "Living within their means" and all that. There is a very cruel truth to that sentiment, but it is rendered impotent by ignoring the fraud that preceded the inflated means and that many innocent people fell for.

374 boxhead  Sun, Oct 9, 2011 1:24:14am

re: #371 000G

Just raise the damn taxes. USPS is there for the general welfare of the people.

The fact that the USPS provides service to all addresses in USA is the main cause of their inability to compete head to head with the likes of UPS, FedEx, etc. That same reason is why the USPS is, IMHO, irreplaceable by a profit focused entity. That service is a loss built into the requirements of a properly functioning delivery service.

I myself do not send many letters at all. I do order stuff from places and currently the USPS is the cheapest rate. Of course I do things like Netflix which could not exist without USPS. All sorts of vital information uses the USPS. There are no viable commercial alternatives that could handle the load.

Bottom line is the hate for USPS is derived from the hate for the Federal Government. While our Gov is not perfect, I find that most of this hate is ill founded and without warrant. Thus the Tea Party platform. Too bad the Tea folks refuse to look at the man, or brothers, as it were, behind the curtain that is able to use their incredible wealth to cloud the minds of so many. And they are just the tip of the iceberg.

375 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sun, Oct 9, 2011 1:26:23am

re: #334 Dark_Falcon

Financial regulations are not things that can be solved with a large, public meeting. In the end, they are things that get decided by a relatively small number of people in a discussion room that will be closed to the public. The public gets to elect many of the people who will have the discussions, but they cannot play a direct part of the actual discussion.

I have no idea what this blanket rejection of the idea of popular participation in the democratic process is all about. Sounds to me as if you would like the USA to become more like the EU. Care to elaborate?

376 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sun, Oct 9, 2011 1:31:08am

re: #348 Gus 802

Oh. I gathered he meant that since they're lefty Jews that they're also reform Jews. And something about reform Jews supporting Norman Finkelstein and Noam Chomsky. Which is of course complete and utter bullshit.

Was a variation of this sentiment:

377 boxhead  Sun, Oct 9, 2011 1:32:52am

re: #373 000G

They fear the Marxists redistributing the wealth of the TARP money. They'd rather the banks keep it if the only alternative would be that dirty Marxists would have a say in what to do with it.

Of course, the wingnuts' dream is still that no TARP had happened at all. "Living within their means" and all that. There is a very cruel truth to that sentiment, but it is rendered impotent by ignoring the fraud that preceded the inflated means and that many innocent people fell for.

TARP was doomed to this result when any sort of mandated, pro people rules were removed. Now the Detroit bail out was a bit better. When talking with anti all bail out types and the auto industry comes up, almost all will say that was wrong. My reply was always, "So, USA should just let thousands of US Citizens lose their jobs for no error on their own?" That bailout did work, it did save thousands of jobs, and the auto companies have been paying USA back. The hate against all this stuff exists because the haters never can get past the talking points. Either it is an inability to find information on their own, or they simply reply on the hate spewing media outlets we all know and despise.

378 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sun, Oct 9, 2011 1:41:22am

I think the sentiment of the Paulbots/La Rouche people having a hold in the OWS movement is refective of what I pointed out before here on LGF: that "the Left" has been to timid about confronting the "nation" problem. Several faults of the current system can only be solved globally, like the question of domestic unemployment which is intrinsically linked to abysmal workers' rights abroad. This is why any embrace of the anti-globalization movement which the Paulbots/La Rouche people in the US dominate, will be toxic.

379 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sun, Oct 9, 2011 2:34:52am

re: #361 Let'sTalk

Voter apathy is not/ will not be a problem. I for one have voted in every election since the 70s, and I don’t intend to stop. But you have to admit that our votes haven’t made a lot of difference. I don’t consider Obama ‘the bad guy’ but he has continued some of Bush's policies. And we still don’t have jobs. He bailed out the banks instead of the people the banks robbed, banks are still foreclosing on homes they don’t even own, and troops in Afghanistan have increased. I’ll vote. But long before that, I’ll demonstrate and support Occupy Wall Street.

Ok well, I don't trust any sowing of doubt or apathy about voting. Not in a year where the GOP has only crank candidates and NO platform but plenty of infighting and whackjobbery.

And not in year 2 of Citizens United.

A large part of this thread discusses the person of John Lewis, who rather infamously paid a severe physical price inflicted by police, so people could just go put a ballot in a box. he's now willing to take people under his wing who aren't dealing with a fraction of what he did.

The vote really is article-of-faith sacred to communities that have been denied it. As an OWS advocate, you need to understand this on a visceral not just an intellectual level, if you want to grow the movement.

I’ll vote.

Vote for Obama or Perry or Ron Paul or write in Mickey Mouse or whomever, who cares.

But Obdi asked you your alternative. I say, you don't really need one; vote AND support OWS. The two are not mutually exclusive.

380 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sun, Oct 9, 2011 2:52:27am

re: #378 000G

I think the sentiment of the Paulbots/La Rouche people having a hold in the OWS movement is refective of what I pointed out before here on LGF: that "the Left" has been to timid about confronting the "nation" problem. Several faults of the current system can only be solved globally, like the question of domestic unemployment which is intrinsically linked to abysmal workers' rights abroad. This is why any embrace of the anti-globalization movement which the Paulbots/La Rouche people in the US dominate, will be toxic.

Hey 000G do you have some links to what you've written on that? It's interesting.

I've found the opposite, that "the left" has little problem embracing global/transnational questions of, say, unemployment, the WTO/IMF/World Bank, etc., or human rights. This is why we were against free trade agreements in the mid 90s.

The left does have problems with the concept of nation-states. It was the main reason behind the clash between the neoconservatives and the left, of the same period. It's also part of the hypocrisy that works my nerves when it comes to conventional-wisdom "left" regarding Israel, and the over-focus on that country which I find to be antisemitic. Again, that goes back to the post-cold war neoconservative/liberal left divide.

The crankodoodles from the paleocon/antiwar.com set, and the related libertarian set have some ideas about borders and nation states span a range, as you likely know. This brings us back to the paulbots. Those ideas aren't going away, they're getting stronger. They appeal to the left, the right, the neocons and the paleocons from which they originate.

So it's a complicated topic - I'd like to read your take on it.

381 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sun, Oct 9, 2011 3:41:07am

re: #380 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

Hey 000G do you have some links to what you've written on that? It's interesting.

[…]

So it's a complicated topic - I'd like to read your take on it.

Sorry, no links handy atm. I might write on it again sometime soon, though. But the things you mention put the finger in almost all of the right wounds.

382 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sun, Oct 9, 2011 3:44:32am

This might give a little transatlantic perspective: [Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

383 Let'sTalk  Sun, Oct 9, 2011 9:13:33am

re #379[Link: ohcrapihaveacrushonsarahpalin.blogspot.com...]


But Obdi asked you your alternative. I say, you don't really need one; vote AND support OWS. The two are not mutually exclusive.

I couldn't agree with you more.

384 jamesfirecat  Sun, Oct 9, 2011 9:29:28am

re: #247 tshinkle

Here are some questions I'd be curious about in your next poll:

1. On a scale of 1-7 should we have more government, more corporations, or neither?
2. On a scale of 1-7 would you rather your next generation of iphone was developed by Apple or the post office?
3. Do you think the computer industry has been more regulated in the last 3 decades or the banking industry?
4. On a scale of 1-7 are you happier with the computer industry or the banking industry?

One slight difference between the computer and banking industry... the computer industry has to sell you an actual product unlike the banking one, that kind of makes it a lot easier to regulate.

Besides, if a computer doesn't work as advertised there are trade ins and warranties, if a bank doesn't work as advertised (doesn't keep your money safe and secure) there's precious little you as a person can do about it (since there isn't much point to suing somebody who is already out of money...)

385 thecommodore  Sun, Oct 9, 2011 12:10:10pm

re: #212 Charles

The context missing from Andrew Breitbart's video: WABE: Hundreds Turn Out to 'Occupy Atlanta' (2011-10-08)

The word "context" has been redacted from Breitbart's dictionary.

The douchebaggery of that guy never fails to amaze.


This article has been archived.
Comments are closed.

Jump to top

Create a PageThis is the LGF Pages posting bookmarklet. To use it, drag this button to your browser's bookmark bar, and title it 'LGF Pages' (or whatever you like). Then browse to a site you want to post, select some text on the page to use for a quote, click the bookmarklet, and the Pages posting window will appear with the title, text, and any embedded video or audio files already filled in, ready to go.
Or... you can just click this button to open the Pages posting window right away.
Last updated: 2023-04-04 11:11 am PDT
LGF User's Guide RSS Feeds

Help support Little Green Footballs!

Subscribe now for ad-free access!Register and sign in to a free LGF account before subscribing, and your ad-free access will be automatically enabled.

Donate with
PayPal
Cash.app
Recent PagesClick to refresh
Texas County at Center of Border Fight Is Overwhelmed by Migrant Deaths EAGLE PASS, Tex. - The undertaker lighted a cigarette and held it between his latex-gloved fingers as he stood over the bloated body bag lying in the bed of his battered pickup truck. The woman had been fished out ...
Cheechako
3 days ago
Views: 154 • Comments: 0 • Rating: 1