Suspect in Seal Beach Shooting: a Tea Party Supporter?

US News • Views: 36,879

Today, 8 people were allegedly shot and killed at a Seal Beach beauty salon by suspect Scott DeKraai as reported by the Los Alamitos Seal Beach Patch:

Seal Beach shooting suspect in custody Scott DeKraai.

Eight people were killed and one critically wounded Wednesday afternoon when a heavily armed gunman wearing body armor opened fire at the Salon Meritage in Seal Beach, police said.

Shortly after the shootings, a white male suspect—who had weapons strewn across the floorboard of his white truck and guns strapped to his body—was arrested without incident half a mile from the scene, police and witnesses said.

The alleged gunman was the ex-husband of a salon employee named Michelle, according to the husband of another employee who survived the shooting unharmed after locking herself inside a back room. Another source identified the suspect as Scott DeKraai of Long Beach, who worked in sportfishing.

The Federal Election Commission reveals that Mr. DeKraai contributed $300 to a group called Stop This Insanity, Inc. on August 9, 2010. The FEC filing or itemized receipt is viewable here. More on this Tea Party group below.

Using this same address on this public filing we find a late model white 4-door Toyota pick-up truck parked in front of the suspect’s home in Huntington Beach, California.

Suspect vehicle using FEC address and located on Google Maps.

We find the same vehicle on several news site today reporting from the scene of today’s massacre including this one from the LA Times and the one shown below.

Suspect vehicle in Seal Beach shooting massacre.

A close up of this photo reveals a Tea Party frame that reads “Help save America” [Link: www.JoinTheTeaParty.us….]

Suspect vehicle with Tea Party license plate frame.

Navigating to [Link: www.jointheteaparty.us…] will currently lead you to “The Tea party.net.”

About Us

History of theteaparty.net

theteaparty.net is a division of Stop This Insanity Inc. and is a national non-profit 501 (c)(4) organization created in 2009 for the education and advancement of the constitutional conservative values of the Tea Party movement. This organization was created to help give the power of government back to the people.

We believe, like many of you, that our government has grown out-of-control in a death spiral of unsustainable and barely imaginable trillion-dollar deficits and a national debt rivaling Gross Domestic Product. This government has ignored the Constitution that defines us; invaded the liberty from which our nation was born; and daily drains away the individuality and entrepreneurial spirit of Americans in order to advance a radical, socialist policy built on the back of American taxpayers. We—like many of you—decided to stand up and do something about it.

Continues.

It appears as though Mr. DeKraai was seriously injured in a tug boat accident back in 2007. There is a possibility that amongst many other contributing factors that he may have been suffering from PTSD.

Jump to bottom

506 comments

1 Obdicut  Wed, Oct 12, 2011 7:58:17pm

Divorce shit gets really ugly. Seems like that's the real basis of the violence here.

By the way, I think the fish on the plate are dolphin-fish, not piranha.

I kind of think people going through a divorce should have to check their guns in with a third party for the duration of the divorce. This kind of crap is way too common.

2 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Wed, Oct 12, 2011 7:59:56pm

re: #1 Obdicut

Agree with Obdi. Until proven otherwise, it's not political. Still, it's good to know the facts in case wingnuts will call him a "liberal" again.

3 Gus  Wed, Oct 12, 2011 8:02:46pm

re: #2 Sergey Romanov

Agree with Obdi. Until proven otherwise, it's not political. Still, it's good to know the facts in case wingnuts will call him a "liberal" again.

Right. I didn't say anything nor give an opinion other than the facts as I interpret them thus far -- short of the PTSD. Right now it looks like the suspect was indeed a Tea Party supporter.

4 reine.de.tout  Wed, Oct 12, 2011 8:13:04pm

re: #1 Obdicut

Divorce shit gets really ugly. Seems like that's the real basis of the violence here.

By the way, I think the fish on the plate are dolphin-fish, not piranha.

I kind of think people going through a divorce should have to check their guns in with a third party for the duration of the divorce. This kind of crap is way too common.

We had more threats at my workplace than I care to think about, ex-husbands, ex-boyfriends, threatening to show up with a gun. Always scary, even though most times nothing happened, you had to always be alert and prepared.

5 Off Colfax  Wed, Oct 12, 2011 8:20:40pm

Ex-wives can also be extremely scary individuals at times.

Although their weapon of choice trends towards loaded lawyers instead of loaded firearms.

#notspeakingfrompersonalexperience

6 reine.de.tout  Wed, Oct 12, 2011 8:22:55pm

And Gus, wow.
That's some great google-fu.

7 Daniel Ballard  Wed, Oct 12, 2011 8:24:33pm

Glad you are sticking around and sticking to your principles. Well done Gus.

8 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Wed, Oct 12, 2011 8:32:12pm

Another mass murdering conservative male. Imagine my shock.

9 Amory Blaine  Wed, Oct 12, 2011 8:50:42pm

Hopefully there will be a reconsideration among politicians who are contemplating decriminalizing domestic violence laws due to recent budget crunches.

10 MittDoesNotCompute  Wed, Oct 12, 2011 9:12:06pm

Just to clarify how I'm reading all of this, for the benefit of the haters, the Stalkers and others: no one is saying that the TP had anything to do with the commission of this heinous crime.

However, the fact that the perp supports TP "ideals" enough to give money to a TP group, coupled with the fact that he wore body armor and had shitloads of weapons and ammo at his disposal (to go on a shooting spree at a salon, of all places, somewhere you wouldn't think that many people would go armed at) gives all of us some insight into how the more virulent RWNJs look at things.

Yes, this is a domestic violence incident gone horribly wrong, claiming the lives of at least 8 innocent people, but I see something more sinister in how this all went down. I think he wore body armor and brought his arsenal with him because he was preparing to square off against the cops in the aftermath of all this, to go out in a blaze of glory. That he ultimately didn't and that he committed this mass murder in the first place shows he's a gutless worm, tripping on the God complex those guns gave him but unwilling in the end to lay down his own life.

I'm glad the cops got him alive...and hope he'll never see the light of day as a free man ever again.

11 windsagio  Wed, Oct 12, 2011 9:16:53pm

This is a total OT, but anybody know why raver chicks wear those weird poofy leggings?

12 boxhead  Wed, Oct 12, 2011 9:18:45pm

re: #1 Obdicut

Divorce shit gets really ugly. Seems like that's the real basis of the violence here.

By the way, I think the fish on the plate are dolphin-fish, not piranha.

I kind of think people going through a divorce should have to check their guns in with a third party for the duration of the divorce. This kind of crap is way too common.

I read someplace that the suspect just recently lost a custody battle...

13 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Oct 12, 2011 9:19:44pm

Okay. May I please hope for his hot shot?

He's a Tea Partier. He's a white guy.

I say? C'mon California.

Kill him a lot.

14 b_sharp  Wed, Oct 12, 2011 9:21:28pm

re: #11 windsagio

This is a total OT, but anybody know why raver chicks wear those weird poofy leggings?

They have chicken legs.

15 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Oct 12, 2011 9:22:47pm

Hey all!

I'm still trying to figure-out how we can give Texas away.

How is the evening going for everyone?

16 Reverend Mother Ramallo  Wed, Oct 12, 2011 9:23:54pm

People do crazy things when they feel like they have nothing else to lose.

17 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Oct 12, 2011 9:24:22pm

re: #11 windsagio

This is a total OT, but anybody know why raver chicks wear those weird poofy leggings?

I'd need to see a pic to identify said weird poofy leggings.

18 Gus  Wed, Oct 12, 2011 9:24:39pm

These are the facts as I present them. The suspect is apparently a Tea Party supporter. Make of it what you will. We also have to consider the method in which it is being reported that he undertook this grizzly act: the use of body armor and multiple weapons cache.

The primary motivating factor was apparently due to a domestic dispute. To my critics I would point out that I did note a concern for the possibility of PTSD. That being said in this highly politically galvanized atmosphere the fact that he was a Tea Party supporter will be a resounding theme that will be heard in the coming days.

19 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Oct 12, 2011 9:25:22pm

re: #9 Amory Blaine

Hopefully there will be a reconsideration among politicians who are contemplating decriminalizing domestic violence laws due to recent budget crunches.

QFT!

20 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Wed, Oct 12, 2011 9:26:22pm

re: #18 Gus 802

All is fair.

21 boxhead  Wed, Oct 12, 2011 9:27:42pm

re: #13 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Okay. May I please hope for his hot shot?

He's a Tea Partier. He's a white guy.

I say? C'mon California.

Kill him a lot.

I am sure some of the families and loved ones of the victims might think likewise. Since I do not believe in the DP, life in prison with chance of parole is a suitable punishment. When hearing about tragedies like this I always find myself thinking what it takes to cause a human to look at another human and end their life. Forget about the domestic angle, I am talking about people he did not even know...

22 windsagio  Wed, Oct 12, 2011 9:28:56pm
23 Someone Please Beam Me Up!  Wed, Oct 12, 2011 9:30:25pm

PTSD will excuse all sorts of things... but not this. If he'd shot someone during a flashback, that might be another matter.

And tea party rhetoric is much too overheated, but I don't think the tea party can really be blamed for this either. They may advocate gunning down particular targets, but I haven't heard of their advocating random acts of murder. (Of course I don't get out much.)

24 HappyWarrior  Wed, Oct 12, 2011 9:30:49pm

Sick of tragedies like this.

25 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Wed, Oct 12, 2011 9:31:01pm

re: #13 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Okay. May I please hope for his hot shot?

He's a Tea Partier. He's a white guy.

I say? C'mon California.

Kill him a lot.

Why would you do that?

26 freetoken  Wed, Oct 12, 2011 9:32:06pm

re: #18 Gus 802

I can readily believe the proximate cause of the violent outburst was the unglued personal relationship that had fallen apart and that perhaps in the previous day or two something had happened between the two of them to bring him to the decision to do the act today and in that location.

Yet it is also quite evident, as you point out by the weaponry/armor, that this involved more than a simple "crime of passion".

27 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Wed, Oct 12, 2011 9:32:14pm

re: #13 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Okay. May I please hope for his hot shot?

He's a Tea Partier. He's a white guy.

I say? C'mon California.

Kill him a lot.

No.

28 Interesting Times  Wed, Oct 12, 2011 9:32:49pm

re: #2 Sergey Romanov

Agree with Obdi. Until proven otherwise, it's not political. Still, it's good to know the facts in case wingnuts will call him a "liberal" again.

I'm looking at the whole thing in context of a different personal theory: that people predisposed to anger, bitterness, and scapegoating are often drawn to political/religious movements that reinforce those beliefs. So perhaps the lesson to be drawn is this: if your movement is proving attractive on a large scale to violent, unstable types, it's a sign there's something seriously wrong with your message.

29 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Wed, Oct 12, 2011 9:33:07pm

re: #9 Amory Blaine

Hopefully there will be a reconsideration among politicians who are contemplating decriminalizing domestic violence laws due to recent budget crunches.

Nicely said. If a domestic dispute is the motive, it didn't take long to get a new posterboy.

30 Gus  Wed, Oct 12, 2011 9:33:37pm

re: #20 Sergey Romanov

All is fair.

Yep. Thanks. And it still breaks my heart thinking about what happened here. It's like we have our own established form of terrorism in this country. Every week people getting shot left and right. They say that murder rates have gone down but, there's still too much. They've gone down but we have more and more mass shootings as they go done. Which is odd no?

This man was full of hatred. Much more than his significant other. I've been mad before in my life and I never once thought of taking it out on other people in my anger. This man didn't only hate his lover. He hated people. You would have to in order to shoot people at random.

31 boxhead  Wed, Oct 12, 2011 9:33:44pm

re: #18 Gus 802

In truth, I do hope the Tea Party aspect is false. If true, it could cause an escalation which I would hate to see. Domestic disputes that result in violence are, unfortunately common. This one was especially horrific.

32 Big Joe  Wed, Oct 12, 2011 9:34:29pm

re: #21 boxhead

I hope you mean "no chance of parole".

33 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Wed, Oct 12, 2011 9:34:52pm

re: #28 publicityStunted

Two-edged sword. E.g. quite a lot of loons are attracted to OWS.

34 boxhead  Wed, Oct 12, 2011 9:35:22pm

re: #32 mracb

I hope you mean "no chance of parole".

oops.... yes i did... :P

35 Gus  Wed, Oct 12, 2011 9:35:49pm

Next time we don't come armed.

36 boxhead  Wed, Oct 12, 2011 9:36:49pm

re: #21 boxhead

I am sure some of the families and loved ones of the victims might think likewise. Since I do not believe in the DP, life in prison with NONONONO chance of parole is a suitable punishment. When hearing about tragedies like this I always find myself thinking what it takes to cause a human to look at another human and end their life. Forget about the domestic angle, I am talking about people he did not even know...

NO CHANCE...

Charles, how about a 30 minute edit window?... :)

37 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Wed, Oct 12, 2011 9:37:08pm

re: #35 Gus 802

Next time we don't come armed.

Killing people with bare hands? What kind of a sociopath are you?!

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38 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Wed, Oct 12, 2011 9:37:45pm

re: #36 boxhead

NO CHANCE...

Charles, how about a 30 minute edit window?... :)

10 minutes would be a good idea BTW. Sometimes 2 is not enough.

39 Gus  Wed, Oct 12, 2011 9:38:00pm

re: #37 Sergey Romanov

Killing people with bare hands? What kind of a sociopath are you?!

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Armed, knifed, batted, bottled.

40 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Wed, Oct 12, 2011 9:38:33pm

For those not familiar with Signal Hill, CA, here's some background from Wikipedia. It was kind of notorious in the 80s, not sure if it still is.

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

Before Rodney King, there was Ron Settles. At least Rodney King lived to tell about it.

41 Gus  Wed, Oct 12, 2011 9:39:22pm

re: #40 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

For those not familiar with Signal Hill, CA, here's some background from Wikipedia. It was kind of notorious in the 80s, not sure if it still is.

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

Before Rodney King, there was Ron Settles. At least Rodney King lived to tell about it.

Yep. OC too. Been thinking about that. Lots of machismo here.

42 boxhead  Wed, Oct 12, 2011 9:40:20pm

re: #39 Gus 802

Armed, knifed, batted, bottled.

How about just taunt each other?

43 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Wed, Oct 12, 2011 9:40:35pm

Ummm guys... some simple facts about doubting the Teabag connection..

1. He does have all those guns... it is much harder to do mass murder with a spoon.

2. The central message of teabaggery is fear, despair and vengeance to begin with. Anyone who subscribes to that, wilfully, inundates himself with it day in and day out is a long way down the lashing out road already.

3. Another central theme of being a teabag is the insane macho gun fetish where they are all latter day man boobed regulators. Anyone who subscribes to that, wilfully, inundates himself with it day in and day out is a long way down the lashing out road already.

So yes, this very much had to do with his political orientation.

44 Gus  Wed, Oct 12, 2011 9:40:40pm

So this man kills 8 people and they're willing to blow it off as domestic violence?

45 Reverend Mother Ramallo  Wed, Oct 12, 2011 9:41:02pm

When I think of Tea Partiers, I think of the sort of people who say white men are the most discriminated against group in the country now.
You know, the type who lose child custody cases, and have to pay (that bitch) alimony and child support etc.
Or the ones who know somebody who knows somebody who lost out on a job to some under-qualified black guy.
I don't think it was a long way to the edge for him...

46 Gus  Wed, Oct 12, 2011 9:42:13pm

re: #43 LudwigVanQuixote

Ummm guys... some simple facts about doubting the Teabag connection..

1. He does have all those guns... it is much harder to do mass murder with a spoon.

2. The central message of teabaggery is fear, despair and vengeance to begin with. Anyone who subscribes to that, wilfully, inundates himself with it day in and day out is a long way down the lashing out road already.

3. Another central theme of being a teabag is the insane macho gun fetish where they are all latter day man boobed regulators. Anyone who subscribes to that, wilfully, inundates himself with it day in and day out is a long way down the lashing out road already.

So yes, this very much had to do with his political orientation.

High 5. OK, now I need a smoke. Could you imagine the write up on Big Government if this guy had an Obama sticker?

47 Interesting Times  Wed, Oct 12, 2011 9:42:22pm

re: #33 Sergey Romanov

Two-edged sword. E.g. quite a lot of loons are attracted to OWS.

There's an important difference, though - since the 1980s, there hasn't been any kind of "Marxist" equivalent in the US to Tim McVeigh, Eric Rudolph, the militia movements, Ruby Ridge, abortion clinic bombings, etc. The worst instances of domestic, home-grown terrorism have been perpetrated by right-wing extremists.

48 Kragar  Wed, Oct 12, 2011 9:42:32pm

re: #44 Gus 802

So this man kills 8 people and they're willing to blow it off as domestic violence?

Should have moved to Topeka, it would have been fine.

49 erik_t  Wed, Oct 12, 2011 9:42:58pm

re: #28 publicityStunted

I'm looking at the whole thing in context of a different personal theory: that people predisposed to anger, bitterness, and scapegoating are often drawn to political/religious movements that reinforce those beliefs. So perhaps the lesson to be drawn is this: if your movement is proving attractive on a large scale to violent, unstable types, it's a sign there's something seriously wrong with your message.

That's the only meaningful political takeaway I'm seeing on this one.

Unless there are donuts at the meetings. Then you're attractive to everyone.

50 boxhead  Wed, Oct 12, 2011 9:43:10pm

re: #44 Gus 802

So this man kills 8 people and they're willing to blow it off as domestic violence?

I would not call it blowing it off. Domestic violence is a extremely serious problem. That is not to say he was not pissed off at the world for other reasons, but what caused the tipping point certainly could have been his losing the custody battle.

51 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Wed, Oct 12, 2011 9:43:21pm

re: #44 Gus 802

So this man kills 8 people and they're willing to blow it off as domestic violence?

You are broad brush! And probably a violant marxist racist, too!

He was a white tea party man, JUST ADMIT IT YOU KNOW YOU VIOLANT MARXIST ALL WANT TO MURRRDURRRR HIM!!!!

/eyeroll

52 Interesting Times  Wed, Oct 12, 2011 9:44:46pm

re: #43 LudwigVanQuixote

Ummm guys... some simple facts about doubting the Teabag connection..

I must confess, as soon as I saw his picture, I couldn't help but recall your rather..."vivid" physical descriptions of this personality type *_*

53 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Wed, Oct 12, 2011 9:44:48pm

re: #47 publicityStunted

There's an important difference, though - since the 1980s, there hasn't been any kind of "Marxist" equivalent in the US to Tim McVeigh, Eric Rudolph, the militia movements, Ruby Ridge, abortion clinic bombings, etc. The worst instances of domestic, home-grown terrorism have been perpetrated by right-wing extremists.

You can even push that date back to the 60s.

54 HappyWarrior  Wed, Oct 12, 2011 9:45:03pm

re: #46 Gus 802

High 5. OK, now I need a smoke. Could you imagine the write up on Big Government if this guy had an Obama sticker?

They'd ask why the liberal media wasn't covering his liberalism the way the media covered the fact that Brevik was a right wing lunatic. That would be my prediction. I can hear Rush Limbaugh now. "Look at this guy, my friends. This is what liberals do when they're angry. The liberal media doesn't want you to know he was a member of the left."

55 goddamnedfrank  Wed, Oct 12, 2011 9:45:09pm

re: #46 Gus 802

Could you imagine the write up on Big Government if this guy had an Obama sticker?

President personally orders man to kill white women! Film at 11.

56 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Oct 12, 2011 9:45:52pm

re: #22 windsagio

Image: white_and_pink_rave_outfit.jpg

ah, those would be "boot sleeves" or "boot covers" of which there are many colors and styles.

Why? I don't know. I suppose they originated as a way to keep your boots clean --way back when boots were hand made and you only got one or two in a lifetime. Or to make them serviceable thru-out the year . . furry covers kept you warm, etc.

Now, they are a fad --just like anything else.

57 makeitstop  Wed, Oct 12, 2011 9:45:59pm

I noticed this:

TheTeaParty.net is a division of Stop This Insanity Inc. and is a national non-profit 501 (c)(4) organization created in 2009 for the education and advancement of the constitutional conservative values of the Tea Party movement.

Anyone know the difference between a 501 (c) (3) and a 501 (c) (4)?

58 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Wed, Oct 12, 2011 9:46:03pm

re: #52 publicityStunted

I must confess, as soon as I saw his picture, I couldn't help but recall your rather..."vivid" physical descriptions of this personality type *_*

Well he is an aging obese man boobed loser... For me that is teabag central casting.

59 jvic  Wed, Oct 12, 2011 9:46:06pm

The first link describes him as ex-military. I'd like to know more about his service record.

That said, to date I see no extenuating circumstances for this degree of malefaction.

A speedy recovery for the injured and traumatized. Condolences to the bereaved. May the dead rest in peace.

60 windsagio  Wed, Oct 12, 2011 9:46:38pm

re: #56 ggt

Its utterly awesome that we're seeing into your seedy past :D

61 sagehen  Wed, Oct 12, 2011 9:46:47pm

re: #22 windsagio

Image: white_and_pink_rave_outfit.jpg

Those "shoes" could easily double as a purse. Good for hands-free carrying.

62 boxhead  Wed, Oct 12, 2011 9:47:46pm

re: #57 makeitstop

I noticed this:

Anyone know the difference between a 501 (c) (3) and a 501 (c) (4)?

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

wikipedia is your friend

501(c)(4) organizations are generally civic leagues and other corporations operated exclusively for the promotion of social welfare, or local associations of employees with membership limited to a designated company or people in a particular municipality or neighborhood, and with net earnings devoted exclusively to charitable, educational, or recreational purposes.[28] 501(c)(4) organizations may lobby for legislation, and unlike 501(c)(3) organizations they may also participate in political campaigns and elections, as long as campaigning is not the organization's primary purpose.[29] The tax exemption for 501(c)(4) organizations applies to most of their operations, but contributions may be subject to gift tax, and income spent on political activities - generally the advocacy of a particular candidate in an election - is taxable.[30]

63 CuriousLurker  Wed, Oct 12, 2011 9:47:58pm

re: #57 makeitstop

I noticed this:

Anyone know the difference between a 501 (c) (3) and a 501 (c) (4)?

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

Epic rant on the other thread, BTW. ;)

64 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Wed, Oct 12, 2011 9:48:05pm

re: #47 publicityStunted

There's an important difference, though - since the 1980s, there hasn't been any kind of "Marxist" equivalent in the US to Tim McVeigh, Eric Rudolph, the militia movements, Ruby Ridge, abortion clinic bombings, etc. The worst instances of domestic, home-grown terrorism have been perpetrated by right-wing extremists.

Well, sure, but the principle in your comment is a general one, right? So if the OWS attracts non-murderous loons does it let it off the hook?

65 boxhead  Wed, Oct 12, 2011 9:48:48pm

re: #58 LudwigVanQuixote

Well he is an aging obese man boobed loser... For e that is teabag central casting.

hey.... many of us could fit that description as well.... Not me of course..

66 makeitstop  Wed, Oct 12, 2011 9:48:56pm

re: #62 boxhead

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

wikipedia is your friend

Thanks.

67 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Oct 12, 2011 9:49:24pm

re: #33 Sergey Romanov

Two-edged sword. E.g. quite a lot of loons are attracted to OWS.

Those kind build bombs --heh

WE have a lot of mental illness out there, undiagnosed, untreated and we are in an era of transition. Add to that the economic upheaval . . .

I am afraid we will see more, not less, in the short-term.

I also think Obdicut's observations are spot-on.

68 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Oct 12, 2011 9:49:56pm

re: #37 Sergey Romanov

Killing people with bare hands? What kind of a sociopath are you?!

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How can you do that when you don't have any arms?

69 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Wed, Oct 12, 2011 9:50:41pm

re: #68 ggt

How can you do that when you don't have any arms?

Unarmed! Ahahahaha!

70 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Wed, Oct 12, 2011 9:51:02pm

re: #65 boxhead

hey... many of us could fit that description as well... Not me of course..

NO, I sincerely doubt that many here have the same, shall we say, lack of class that teabaggers do, however old or out of shape some here may be.

71 Gus  Wed, Oct 12, 2011 9:51:32pm

re: #51 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

/eyeroll

I see an event like this and think of a complicated organism. There is a mindset.

72 boxhead  Wed, Oct 12, 2011 9:51:43pm

re: #69 Sergey Romanov

Unarmed! Ahahahaha!

Tis but a flesh wound... I'll kick you to death....

73 Gus  Wed, Oct 12, 2011 9:52:49pm

Car identification also helps. :)

74 boxhead  Wed, Oct 12, 2011 9:52:58pm

re: #70 LudwigVanQuixote

NO, I sincerely doubt that many here have the same, shall we say, lack of class that teabaggers do, however old or out of shape some here may be.

I meant the aging out of shape part... :p heheh

75 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Wed, Oct 12, 2011 9:53:08pm

re: #72 boxhead

Tis but a flesh wound... I'll kick you to death...

I'll bite yer legs off!

76 makeitstop  Wed, Oct 12, 2011 9:53:14pm

re: #63 CuriousLurker

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

Epic rant on the other thread, BTW. ;)

Thank you. :)

I think I need to sleep now. 'Night, Lizards.

77 CuriousLurker  Wed, Oct 12, 2011 9:53:51pm

re: #46 Gus 802

I'm not staying, I just wanted to drop in and say congrats to Gus on the front page article. So sad for all the families and loss of life...all because of one angry man. *sigh*

Good night, everyone—give your loved ones an extra hug before you go to sleep.

78 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Oct 12, 2011 9:54:27pm

re: #60 windsagio

Its utterly awesome that we're seeing into your seedy past :D

I'm just a girly girl. I love clothes, make-up, jewelry, shoes, jewelry, shoes . .

79 boxhead  Wed, Oct 12, 2011 9:55:10pm

re: #77 CuriousLurker

amen... Unimagined pain was dealt to many people.

80 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Oct 12, 2011 9:55:59pm

re: #61 sagehen

Those "shoes" could easily double as a purse. Good for hands-free carrying.

I wouldn't be surprised if there weren't concealed pockets in the original designs--for way back when you had to be careful of cut purses and scalawags.

81 Interesting Times  Wed, Oct 12, 2011 9:56:28pm

re: #64 Sergey Romanov

Well, sure, but the principle in your comment is a general one, right? So if the OWS attracts non-murderous loons does it let it off the hook?

It's a question of whether the movement's main message is authoritarian and eliminationist in nature. That's the kind of thing that is to crazies as shit is to flies.

re: #76 makeitstop

I think I need to sleep now. 'Night, Lizards.

Same here - it's almost 1:00 AM! No fighting/fireworks while I'm gone ;)

82 Gus  Wed, Oct 12, 2011 9:56:38pm

Maybe some good can come out of this. Maybe the Tea Party can think more about domestic violence. And work to curb it within their in group.

83 windsagio  Wed, Oct 12, 2011 9:57:16pm

re: #78 ggt

I go to a lot of shows to help my cousin out when he runs sound.

Its a bunch of 'wow so many hot chicks!'

...

'wow, they're MAYBE 18!'

...

'ok lets look at their weird leggings instead'

84 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Wed, Oct 12, 2011 9:57:44pm

Gus, just noticed the mistake that will affect searches. It's "DeKraai", not "DeKraii".

85 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Oct 12, 2011 9:57:55pm

re: #82 Gus 802

Maybe some good can come out of this. Maybe the Tea Party can think more about domestic violence. And work to curb it within their in group.

Oh pleez --that would be showing concern for women . . .

86 Gus  Wed, Oct 12, 2011 9:59:37pm

But the irony. Being. You know what most people will be thinking? About how we can kill the perp. The death penalty. Don't think about it just kill the perpetrator and we'll go on in life like kept women. Yeesh.

87 Gus  Wed, Oct 12, 2011 9:59:55pm

re: #84 Sergey Romanov

Gus, just noticed the mistake that will affect searches. It's "DeKraai", not "DeKraii".

I can't change that now.

88 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Oct 12, 2011 10:00:05pm

I think there are also furry versions of mukluks out there, but these seem to be just regular boot sleeves.

89 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Wed, Oct 12, 2011 10:00:20pm

re: #87 Gus 802

Hope Charles sees.

90 jvic  Wed, Oct 12, 2011 10:00:26pm

re: #47 publicityStunted

There's an important difference, though - since the 1980s, there hasn't been any kind of "Marxist" equivalent in the US to Tim McVeigh, Eric Rudolph, the militia movements, Ruby Ridge, abortion clinic bombings, etc. The worst instances of domestic, home-grown terrorism have been perpetrated by right-wing extremists.

Indeed, pS, I cannot think of a strict counterexample. However, Jonestown happened in November 1978, and the American adults who died had gone there voluntarily, at least nominally.

91 Gus  Wed, Oct 12, 2011 10:00:45pm

re: #89 Sergey Romanov

Hope Charles sees.

I recommended your comment. Thanks.

92 boxhead  Wed, Oct 12, 2011 10:01:03pm

re: #82 Gus 802

Maybe some good can come out of this. Maybe the Tea Party can think more about domestic violence. And work to curb it within their in group.

And even more so, I hope the tea folks look at violence in general as not so good. The echo chamber of extreme opinions only inflame those susceptible to such influence. Much like those same tea people scream about none of the moderate muslims are calling for the end of violence, none of the GOP folks are doing the same. Well I have heard a few, but they are cast out as soon as they do.

93 windsagio  Wed, Oct 12, 2011 10:01:39pm

re: #88 ggt

yeah that's totally what they are. Thx :D

(and sorry to everyone else, I just have nothing at all to say about the main subject :p)

94 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Wed, Oct 12, 2011 10:02:21pm

re: #93 windsagio

you so crazy

95 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Wed, Oct 12, 2011 10:03:18pm

re: #86 Gus 802

But the irony. Being. You know what most people will be thinking? About how we can kill the perp. The death penalty. Don't think about it just kill the perpetrator and we'll go on in life like kept women. Yeesh.

Well, those salivating for state-sponsored violence, yeah. The death penalty was the furthest from my mind.

96 windsagio  Wed, Oct 12, 2011 10:03:46pm

re: #94 Sergey Romanov

had a tough day :p

97 Reverend Mother Ramallo  Wed, Oct 12, 2011 10:09:23pm

1:05 in the a.m.
5 & 7 year old boys don't appreciate sleep yet, and wake up waaay too early.
G'night all !

98 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Oct 12, 2011 10:10:42pm

There seems to be some trend with middle-aged men and divorce. Many do freak-out and end up in the mental health ward. Usually (at least the cases I have personally known) are bi-polar.

There are three types of bi-polar defined now.

A mild form of bipolar disorder called cyclothymia involves less severe mood swings. People with this form alternate between hypomania and mild depression. People with bipolar disorder type II or cyclothymia may be wrongly diagnosed as having depression.

Cyclothymia is really tough. The ill person can pretty much control thru-out their life, but is still ill. A traumatic event (divorce) can set them off and they end up in the hospital, in jail, committing suicide or in rare cases, committing violence.

The two people I knew were both middle-aged men whose wives divorced them. After years of dealing with the undiagnosed mental illness (of which both parties were unaware) the wive's said, that's enough. Both controlled their symptoms with drugs and alcohol --adding to the family dysfunction. Sad really.

99 lostlakehiker  Wed, Oct 12, 2011 10:12:39pm

Since I spoke up right away to point out that Loughner gave all the signs of insanity, I'll pop in this time and say I don't see it in this story. What this guy did was not rationally calculated to any purpose but mayhem, but "fixin to git even" isn't in the diagnostic manual of mental disorders.

100 boxhead  Wed, Oct 12, 2011 10:17:51pm

Here is a question. Based on Gus's post, clearly this guy was hanging out in tea shops. So is the tea bagging right wing media acting just like an extremist Madrasah? Are people getting so worked up that horrific events such as this will become more frequent due to people walking around on the edge?

Talking with quite a few Obama haters, I have found many have irrational anger. This is not healthy, is is not going to help USA solve anything. This is dangerous.

What can be done within our laws?

101 ProGunLiberal  Wed, Oct 12, 2011 10:18:15pm

I just saw a report from the AP that a US drone has killed a high-ranking member of the Haqqani Network.

102 lostlakehiker  Wed, Oct 12, 2011 10:18:55pm

re: #15 ggt

Hey all!

I'm still trying to figure-out how we can give Texas away.

How is the evening going for everyone?

You'd have to water it before anybody would take it.

Sigh.

103 Gus  Wed, Oct 12, 2011 10:19:25pm

re: #99 lostlakehiker

Since I spoke up right away to point out that Loughner gave all the signs of insanity, I'll pop in this time and say I don't see it in this story. What this guy did was not rationally calculated to any purpose but mayhem, but "fixin to git even" isn't in the diagnostic manual of mental disorders.

Do you think there was an amped up state of awareness on the part of the perpetrator? So much rage here don't you think? He didn't only want to kill his wife but he wanted to kill everything she loved. This goes beyond getting even. If your vendetta is on your wife you just shot your wife. You don't go off and kill everyone where she works.

104 boxhead  Wed, Oct 12, 2011 10:19:35pm

re: #101 ProLifeLiberal

I just saw a report from the AP that a US drone has killed a high-ranking member of the Haqqani Network.

and still tea folks thinks this administration is soft on terror.

105 Gus  Wed, Oct 12, 2011 10:20:43pm

re: #100 boxhead

Here is a question. Based on Gus's post, clearly this guy was hanging out in tea shops. So is the tea bagging right wing media acting just like an extremist Madrasah? Are people getting so worked up that horrific events such as this will become more frequent due to people walking around on the edge?

Talking with quite a few Obama haters, I have found many have irrational anger. This is not healthy, is is not going to help USA solve anything. This is dangerous.

What can be done within our laws?

Correct. Where did he learn these principles?

106 Gus  Wed, Oct 12, 2011 10:22:41pm

re: #105 Gus 802

Correct. Where did he learn these principles?

I'll bite a little bit. One of the primary principles of right wing theory is to place women as second class citizens. That's just a start.

107 ProGunLiberal  Wed, Oct 12, 2011 10:23:58pm

re: #104 boxhead

Apparently we hit a guy who was described as a "coordinator" and several other less important people.

108 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Wed, Oct 12, 2011 10:25:44pm

re: #100 boxhead

What can be done within our laws?

Nothing. Our laws stipulate presumption of innocence, not guilt or guilt by association game some of these cons play wrt demographics, "lifestyle choice", refusal to join in with their pet cause, etc.

We have a bunch of people right now just itching for everyone in OWS, for instance, to be suppressed by the cops and criminalized. I don't want to see that happen to anyone, ever.

109 boxhead  Wed, Oct 12, 2011 10:25:55pm

re: #105 Gus 802

Correct. Where did he learn these principles?

As you posted, and I concurred, the echo chamber of hate that oozes from the right wing tea loving media. But that in my opinion. I far too often must bite my tongue when around certain people because otherwise, the ensuing "debate" would not be very positive. They get angry.... not disapointed, or bummed, really hot and angry. It is like a mass hypnosis has occurred and some of us are immune.

Also, if the perp was suffering from PTSD, bipolar, or some other chemical imbalance, that could be a very toxic mix.

110 Gus  Wed, Oct 12, 2011 10:25:59pm

Then there's the matter of gun control.

111 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Oct 12, 2011 10:26:08pm

Profile Emerges of Suspected Salon Killer

Those who grew up with DeKraai in the close-knit local sport-fishing world, or the former boss who knew him since birth, say he was a lovable captain in waterfront jobs so dirty or demanding that you had to love the fishing and the ocean. Yet it was on a dock that, in hindsight, the seeds were perhaps sown for his unfathomable destruction Wednesday.

An accident so gruesome that he was trying to save his deckhand friend as she was decapitated also nearly severed his legs, three friends said.

"I saw him two years later," a Pierpoint Landing coworker said Wednesday night, "and he was like a ghost of who he was."

“I can’t make sense out of any of this,” said Malchow. “I still think he is a nice guy, but just when you think you know someone, this happens.”

Megan, the officer, said that DeKraai was known to have violently loud screaming matches with Michelle. Ashley said the last time he saw either was at Long Beach Memorial, where Scotty was undergoing treatment on his legs and his mother, also named Michelle, got into a loud argument with his then-wife Michelle.

The friends said Dekraai could not drive after his accident, and Foss provided for a caretaker. He fell in love with her, and she is the wife with whom he lived, they said. They felt he was well taken care of, but said Megan, "he was just never the same after the accident. It physically destroyed him and I saw on TV where the police asked hin to stand up and he couldn't. And it emotionally devastated him. Piper was like his little sister, too, and he could not save her."

112 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Wed, Oct 12, 2011 10:26:27pm

re: #105 Gus 802

Correct. Where did he learn these principles?

Could have been anywhere. Especially living in Signal Hill...

113 boxhead  Wed, Oct 12, 2011 10:27:06pm

re: #112 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

Could have been anywhere. Especially living in Signal Hill...

Are you implying living on an oil field can cause this?

//

114 lostlakehiker  Wed, Oct 12, 2011 10:27:22pm

re: #95 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

Well, those salivating for state-sponsored violence, yeah. The death penalty was the furthest from my mind.

Death penalty is probably not appropriate for this case. Recognizing that many people are against DP across the board, the best candidates are the people who looked over the odds, liked them, and acted in cold malice and for a purpose that made sense to them and would have made sense to others of like mind.

Perhaps one in a thousand murders fits the bill. And no, salivating is the wrong word for the mind set of those of us who do think DP is necessary. Regrettable necessity is the phrase.

115 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Oct 12, 2011 10:27:26pm

re: #100 boxhead

Here is a question. Based on Gus's post, clearly this guy was hanging out in tea shops. So is the tea bagging right wing media acting just like an extremist Madrasah? Are people getting so worked up that horrific events such as this will become more frequent due to people walking around on the edge?

Talking with quite a few Obama haters, I have found many have irrational anger. This is not healthy, is is not going to help USA solve anything. This is dangerous.

What can be done within our laws?

Based on the Profile article I posted above --we have to intervene when we know someone is not well. Which is difficult to do legally. This guy was shattered.

116 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Wed, Oct 12, 2011 10:27:51pm

re: #113 boxhead

Are you implying living on an oil field can cause this?

//

+++

117 laZardo  Wed, Oct 12, 2011 10:28:34pm

Anyone still looking for DayLife?

118 boxhead  Wed, Oct 12, 2011 10:28:45pm

re: #106 Gus 802

I'll bite a little bit. One of the primary principles of right wing theory is to place women as second class citizens. That's just a start.

yeah.... that is disturbing as well. So now we have poor and middle class people voting GOP against their best interest, we also have women voting GOP against their best interest. More often than not, religion is being used as the reason.

119 lostlakehiker  Wed, Oct 12, 2011 10:29:14pm

re: #103 Gus 802

Do you think there was an amped up state of awareness on the part of the perpetrator? So much rage here don't you think? He didn't only want to kill his wife but he wanted to kill everything she loved. This goes beyond getting even. If your vendetta is on your wife you just shot your wife. You don't go off and kill everyone where she works.

So true. It'll be a bit of a mitigating factor at trial, perhaps. But for legal purposes, that won't fly as an insanity defense. He won't be tucked away in some mental hospital, deemed so far out in his own world that you can't even try him.

120 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Wed, Oct 12, 2011 10:29:27pm

re: #114 lostlakehiker

And no, salivating is the wrong word for the mind set of those of us who do think DP is necessary. Regrettable necessity is the phrase.

But that wasn't the group referenced.

The group referenced were those salivating for state-sponsored violence.

121 Gus  Wed, Oct 12, 2011 10:29:34pm

re: #114 lostlakehiker

Death penalty is probably not appropriate for this case. Recognizing that many people are against DP across the board, the best candidates are the people who looked over the odds, liked them, and acted in cold malice and for a purpose that made sense to them and would have made sense to others of like mind.

Perhaps one in a thousand murders fits the bill. And no, salivating is the wrong word for the mind set of those of us who do think DP is necessary. Regrettable necessity is the phrase.

I don't care anymore. People suffer more when they get life. There is no life after death so the death penalty is rather mute.

122 Kragar  Wed, Oct 12, 2011 10:30:07pm

re: #107 ProLifeLiberal

Apparently we hit a guy who was described as a "coordinator" and several other less important people.

I guess you could say we apologized the shit out of them.

123 Gus  Wed, Oct 12, 2011 10:30:37pm

re: #117 laZardo

Anyone still looking for DayLife?

Mmmm. Thanks.

124 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Oct 12, 2011 10:31:08pm

re: #110 Gus 802

Then there's the matter of gun control.

California has some of the strictest gun control.

We have to deal with mental illness in our society.

125 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Wed, Oct 12, 2011 10:31:20pm

re: #121 Gus 802

I don't care anymore. People suffer more when they get life. There is no life after death so the death penalty is rather mute.

In that case a big comet is a perfect answer to everything.

126 boxhead  Wed, Oct 12, 2011 10:32:15pm

re: #115 ggt

Based on the Profile article I posted above --we have to intervene when we know someone is not well. Which is difficult to do legally. This guy was shattered.

And trying to is just opening a whole box of shite.

We need to make some sort of compromise. If we allow crazy people to walk around, then the Second Amendment needs adjusting. Other solutions involve everyone being armed, or jewelry store like man traps installed everywhere.

blah

127 Gus  Wed, Oct 12, 2011 10:32:19pm

re: #125 Sergey Romanov

In that case a big comet is a perfect answer to everything.

I must hit you now.

//

128 lostlakehiker  Wed, Oct 12, 2011 10:32:34pm

re: #121 Gus 802

I don't care anymore. People suffer more when they get life. There is no life after death so the death penalty is rather mute.

I don't want them to suffer. Prison should not be a place of torment. It should be a place where the guilty go to rethink their lives and straighten them out, if they're to be released eventually, and a place where they can't do more of the same, as best we can ensure it, if they're to be held for life.

129 laZardo  Wed, Oct 12, 2011 10:34:57pm

re: #123 Gus 802

Reports of its demise were greatly exaggerated. :B

130 boxhead  Wed, Oct 12, 2011 10:35:10pm

re: #128 lostlakehiker

I don't want them to suffer. Prison should not be a place of torment. It should be a place where the guilty go to rethink their lives and straighten them out, if they're to be released eventually, and a place where they can't do more of the same, as best we can ensure it, if they're to be held for life.

I don't think rehabilitation has been part of our prison system for some time...

unfortunately.

131 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Wed, Oct 12, 2011 10:35:50pm

Heheh. A funny DKos thread about Walesa's visit to OWS:

[Link: www.dailykos.com...]

132 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Oct 12, 2011 10:37:40pm

re: #126 boxhead

And trying to is just opening a whole box of shite.

We need to make some sort of compromise. If we allow crazy people to walk around, then the Second Amendment needs adjusting. Other solutions involve everyone being armed, or jewelry store like man traps installed everywhere.

blah

Those adjudicated mentally ill are cannot legally purchase a firearm. The funding and systems are not in place for that to be enforced adequately.

Instead of working on enforceing the laws we already have, we just argue about guns.

The issue, for me, is how to take the stigma out of mental illness, so people will be open to recognzing the signs and getting help. This guy obviously went thru several severe traumas as a result of the accident --that alone would merit in-house treatment, IMHO. Did he get help, was he on meds, was he adequately treated?

Without mental health parity in our insurance coverage, many people go without even when they know it's needed.

How to keep them from the guns they already own --that would have to be decided by judge. You are talking about Constitutional rights. The National Alliance for the Mentally is concerned about this as well.

I'd like to think that they firearms could be stored safely somewhere, but I have little confidence the system could figure that out any more than they can figure out who has already been adjudicated mentally ill.

133 Kragar  Wed, Oct 12, 2011 10:37:42pm

re: #130 boxhead

I don't think rehabilitation has been part of our prison system for some time...

unfortunately.

Private prisons, what could go wrong?
/

134 Gus  Wed, Oct 12, 2011 10:39:34pm

re: #128 lostlakehiker

I don't want them to suffer. Prison should not be a place of torment. It should be a place where the guilty go to rethink their lives and straighten them out, if they're to be released eventually, and a place where they can't do more of the same, as best we can ensure it, if they're to be held for life.

You often hit the right mark my man. You just did. It is amongst the living that we live.

135 SteveMcG  Wed, Oct 12, 2011 10:39:41pm

I didn't get to read all of the posts above, but concerning the death penalty, it is lead pipe cinches like this in which there is little sympathy for the accused that make possible the dubious cases like Cameron Todd Willingham. I happened to catch Lawrence O'Donnell making that argument. I was wondering what he would come up with to object to the execution of the white supremecist who dragged a black guy behind his truck. It was a hell of an argument.

136 freetoken  Wed, Oct 12, 2011 10:39:50pm

re: #100 boxhead

.... So is the tea bagging right wing media acting just like an extremist Madrasah? Are people getting so worked up that horrific events such as this will become more frequent due to people walking around on the edge?

Those are questions that probably could be rephrased.

The objection some have to Gus's Page appears to be that we'll all just end up in the logical fallacy:

A: DeKraii is a mass murderer
B: DeKraii is a Tea Party supporter
Therefore: All Tea Party supporters are mass murderers


I don't think Gus (or Charles, who promoted the Page to the front) are trying to make that case.

Rather, what we are seeing in our nation today, October 2011, is that the "Tea Party" has been so mainstreamed that one of the two major political parties is having to have all it's Presidential candidates pander to the Tea Partiers' demands, and that the MSM and pollsters are now assuming that the "Tea Party" is worthy of serious contention and given the TP legitimacy.

I would argue that the case of DeKraii (if indeed it is confirmed that he is a member/advocate/supporter of Tea Partyism), and the other cases we've seen over the past couple of years, gives us important indications of what really drives and gives rise to Tea Partiers - unresolved angst and inability to work out their problems in the ways society allows.

The powerful and rich who manipulate the "Tea Party" big events and astroturfing systems make hay out of having people who are acting irrational (not in their own best self-interest.)

The TP attracts people like DeKraii because the TP outlets allow (even encourage) angry, violent, and marginalized people to use the TP hate-feasts as a catharsis.

Do I believe this type of exploitation of the angry, marginalized male then leads to an increase in violence? Well, it might, but that would have to be proven by empirical data and I don't know of anyone who has done a legitimate study on this.

I will note that it has been known for a long time, and shown over and over, that people imitate those around them - we even have a term for it: to ape (heh, we're monkeys deep down...)

On an anecdotal note: when I returned to the US after living in Japan for a few years my re-acclimatization to American culture included becoming, once again, more cautious about where I go during the day, to being prepared for the forwardness of Americans to approach one in an aggressive manner, and violence all around us.

I suspect that many people here who brush off the problem of violence in America, and guns, have just become desensitized to how violent and aggressive we are. Which is exactly why the Tea Partying GOP cheers Perry when he executes the innocent, and why (see the Pages) a legislator in FL wants to bring back firing squads and electrocution.

137 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Oct 12, 2011 10:40:07pm

Our prison system is designed for a person to "pay their debt to society". As I understand it --and/or to remove dangerous people from society. It was designed to benefit society, not individuals.

I agree we need fundamental changes. What benefited society in centuries past is not the same as what would benefit society now.

138 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Wed, Oct 12, 2011 10:40:34pm

re: #136 freetoken

DeKraai.

139 Gus  Wed, Oct 12, 2011 10:41:26pm

re: #136 freetoken

Those are questions that probably could be rephrased.

The objection some have to Gus's Page appears to be that we'll all just end up in the logical fallacy:

A: DeKraii is a mass murderer
B: DeKraii is a Tea Party supporter
Therefore: All Tea Party supporters are mass murderers

I don't think Gus (or Charles, who promoted the Page to the front) are trying to make that case.

Rather, what we are seeing in our nation today, October 2011, is that the "Tea Party" has been so mainstreamed that one of the two major political parties is having to have all it's Presidential candidates pander to the Tea Partiers' demands, and that the MSM and pollsters are now assuming that the "Tea Party" is worthy of serious contention and given the TP legitimacy.

I would argue that the case of DeKraii (if indeed it is confirmed that he is a member/advocate/supporter of Tea Partyism), and the other cases we've seen over the past couple of years, gives us important indications of what really drives and gives rise to Tea Partiers - unresolved angst and inability to work out their problems in the ways society allows.

The powerful and rich who manipulate the "Tea Party" big events and astroturfing systems make hay out of having people who are acting irrational (not in their own best self-interest.)

The TP attracts people like DeKraii because the TP outlets allow (even encourage) angry, violent, and marginalized people to use the TP hate-feasts as a catharsis.

Do I believe this type of exploitation of the angry, marginalized male then leads to an increase in violence? Well, it might, but that would have to be proven by empirical data and I don't know of anyone who has done a legitimate study on this.

I will note that it has been known for a long time, and shown over and over, that people imitate those around them - we even have a term for it: to ape (heh, we're monkeys deep down...)

On an anecdotal note: when I returned to the US after living in Japan for a few years my re-acclimatization to American culture included becoming, once again, more cautious about where I go during the day, to being prepared for the forwardness of Americans to approach one in an aggressive manner, and violence all around us.

I suspect that many people here who brush off the problem of violence in America, and guns, have just become desensitized to how violent and aggressive we are. Which is exactly why the Tea Partying GOP cheers Perry when he executes the innocent, and why (see the Pages) a legislator in FL wants to bring back firing squads and electrocution.

Exactly. Damn Freetoken. You're good.

140 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Wed, Oct 12, 2011 10:41:33pm

The german government trojan now has been found out / admitted to have been used also in Rhineland-Palatinate, Hamburg, Bremen, and the German Customs Investigation Bureau. The latter is a federal agency.

The Greens are now openly claiming that the Federal Criminal Police Office is the source of all of this.

Still getting bigger and bigger.

And now, even our biggest tabloid (the biggest in Europe, for that matter) has taken up arms:
[Link: www.bild.de...]

Heh

141 boxhead  Wed, Oct 12, 2011 10:42:57pm

re: #132 ggt

Getting a firearm today does not mean having to do so legally. Also, not everyone with a mental disorder is officially diagnosed. A friend of mine who was in the front lines of Iraq would not officially report his "issues" for fear of being labeled and thus make it hard to find work. Changing his mind was not an option. and yes, taking people off the streets is not an option. there really seems to be no solution here...

142 boxhead  Wed, Oct 12, 2011 10:43:29pm

re: #133 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Private prisons, what could go wrong?
/

everything.... and it is not just the private ones..

143 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Oct 12, 2011 10:44:51pm

re: #141 boxhead

Getting a firearm today does not mean having to do so legally. Also, not everyone with a mental disorder is officially diagnosed. A friend of mine who was in the front lines of Iraq would not officially report his "issues" for fear of being labeled and thus make it hard to find work. Changing his mind was not an option. and yes, taking people off the streets is not an option. there really seems to be no solution here...

Fear of the stigma of mental illness.

I HATE IT!

While not a total answer, the only way I can see to making the situation better is to work to remove the stigma.

144 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Wed, Oct 12, 2011 10:44:57pm

re: #128 lostlakehiker

I don't want them to suffer. Prison should not be a place of torment. It should be a place where the guilty go to rethink their lives and straighten them out, if they're to be released eventually, and a place where they can't do more of the same, as best we can ensure it, if they're to be held for life.

Congratulations, you're a liberal. :P

145 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Oct 12, 2011 10:44:57pm

re: #13 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Okay. May I please hope for his hot shot?

He's a Tea Partier. He's a white guy.

I say? C'mon California.

Kill him a lot.

Unlikely, but feel free to dream.

147 Gus  Wed, Oct 12, 2011 10:45:36pm

This guy did what he did because he was a sexist bigot.

148 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Wed, Oct 12, 2011 10:45:42pm

re: #144 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

Congratulations, you're a liberal. :P

He likes Pinochet.

149 laZardo  Wed, Oct 12, 2011 10:45:58pm

re: #140 000G

...arms bigger around than my torso!

150 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Oct 12, 2011 10:46:06pm

re: #22 windsagio

Image: white_and_pink_rave_outfit.jpg

Oh those things.

People on X like to stroke them.

That's my best guess.

151 boxhead  Wed, Oct 12, 2011 10:46:33pm

ok... bye for now... good chats

152 Gus  Wed, Oct 12, 2011 10:46:58pm

re: #146 Sergey Romanov

[Video]

I'm listening too...

153 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Oct 12, 2011 10:48:39pm

re: #54 HappyWarrior

They'd ask why the liberal media wasn't covering his liberalism the way the media covered the fact that Brevik was a right wing lunatic. That would be my prediction. I can hear Rush Limbaugh now. "Look at this guy, my friends. This is what liberals do when they're angry. The liberal media doesn't want you to know he was a member of the left."

Yes, but that's complete bullshit, and I rightly despise them every time they pull it out.

154 freetoken  Wed, Oct 12, 2011 10:48:51pm

re: #139 Gus 802

Exactly. Damn Freetoken. You're good.

Well, Thanks. But I already knew that... I'll try to not let go to my head.

Oooppsss... too late..

155 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Oct 12, 2011 10:49:02pm

Here is, at least, one group that has a implemented a plan.

Mental First Aid: How To Help In An Emotional Crisis

She found just the right class, called Mental Health First Aid. Bryan Gibb is the director of public education for the National Council for Community Behavioral Healthcare, which runs the course.

"We often train to know CPR or the Heimlich maneuver or first aid. But the reality is, it's much more likely that we're going to come in contact with someone suffering from an emotional crisis than someone suffering a heart attack or choking in a restaurant," he said.

In a 12-hour course, Gibb teaches people how to identify different types of mental illness: depression, anxiety disorders, psychosis, eating disorders and substance abuse.

156 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Wed, Oct 12, 2011 10:52:05pm

Launch any file path from web page (Safari)

There's not a ton to say about this bug aside from "Yikes"! I think the PoC speaks for itself. This allows you to send any "file:" url to LaunchServices, which will run binaries, launch applications, or open content in the default application, all from a web page. The only caveat is that since LaunchServices will check for the quarantine bit, you cannot directly push a binary to the browser and launch it. Other than that, you can run or launch anything you can access by using the method in the html provided below.

[Link: vttynotes.blogspot.com...]

157 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Wed, Oct 12, 2011 11:00:23pm

re: #156 000G

meh
macos

158 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Oct 12, 2011 11:01:12pm

re: #156 000G

I don't understand one bit (or byte) of that.

Do I need to?

159 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Wed, Oct 12, 2011 11:01:47pm

Caption writer goes rogue for OWS:
[Link: www.theglobeandmail.com...]

160 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Oct 12, 2011 11:02:44pm

re: #133 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Private prisons, what could go wrong?
/

Judge Dredd?

161 jvic  Wed, Oct 12, 2011 11:03:20pm

re: #115 ggt

Based on the Profile article I posted above --we have to intervene when we know someone is not well. Which is difficult to do legally. This guy was shattered.

Here is a description of the law that allows a CA "qualified officer" to have someone held for psychiatric observation. According to the article, there is also a judicial mechanism to do this.

He had watched a coworker and friend be decapitated; he nearly lost his legs, and became permanently impaired, in the same accident; had a personality change after the accident; had screaming matches with his wife; and was in a rancorous custody dispute after divorce. In hindsight, there appears to have been plausible cause for intervention.

This is not to extenuate the perpetrator. If guilt means anything, he appears guilty. He chose every step he took. The question remains whether he might have been pointed in a different direction earlier on.

163 Kragar  Wed, Oct 12, 2011 11:06:28pm

re: #160 ggt

Judge Dredd?

No. Dredd was a public employee.

164 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Oct 12, 2011 11:06:41pm

re: #161 jvic

Here is a description of the law that allows a CA "qualified officer" to have someone held for psychiatric observation. According to the article, there is also a judicial mechanism to do this.

He had watched a coworker and friend be decapitated; he nearly lost his legs, and became permanently impaired, in the same accident; had a personality change after the accident; had screaming matches with his wife; and was in a rancorous custody dispute after divorce. In hindsight, there appears to have been plausible cause for intervention.

This is not to extenuate the perpetrator. If guilt means anything, he appears guilty. He chose every step he took. The question remains whether he might have been pointed in a different direction earlier on.

EXACTLY!

165 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Oct 12, 2011 11:09:53pm

re: #161 jvic

Here is a description of the law that allows a CA "qualified officer" to have someone held for psychiatric observation. According to the article, there is also a judicial mechanism to do this.

He had watched a coworker and friend be decapitated; he nearly lost his legs, and became permanently impaired, in the same accident; had a personality change after the accident; had screaming matches with his wife; and was in a rancorous custody dispute after divorce. In hindsight, there appears to have been plausible cause for intervention.

This is not to extenuate the perpetrator. If guilt means anything, he appears guilty. He chose every step he took. The question remains whether he might have been pointed in a different direction earlier on.

Are the systems in place to actually carry out the law? Would he get adequate help --are there beds available--who pays? Will he have a Court Appointed Advocate to make sure his rights are not violated?

The Mental Health system in this country sucks. The answer today is to wait untnil they commit a crime and then institutionalize them in prison. Frankly, if he had been treated at the time of the original accident --transferred to the mental health ward as part of of his rehab--this probably could have been dealt with from the beginning. . . . .

166 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Wed, Oct 12, 2011 11:10:55pm

And a nice dkos post addressing the "violent revolution" rhetoric:

[Link: www.dailykos.com...]

167 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Oct 12, 2011 11:12:45pm

re: #161 jvic

Can you tell I have a lot to say on the subject?

In my family a person would have gotten the mental health treatment they needed--it is what we do. We don't want our kids to grow-up like we did.

Unless the family demands it, why would a hospital treat him for anything other than his legs?

Most families, these days, wouldn't go for it --the stigma, the cost . . . .

168 freetoken  Wed, Oct 12, 2011 11:18:05pm

re: #167 ggt

Most families, these days, wouldn't go for it --the stigma, the cost . . .

Big stigma... big cost.

That's why, in my defense of having an at-least-minimal public health care system that mental illness would be covered (along with any communicable diseases, especially STDs.)

169 jvic  Wed, Oct 12, 2011 11:20:32pm

re: #165 ggt

Are the systems in place to actually carry out the law? Would he get adequate help --are there beds available--who pays? Will he have a Court Appointed Advocate to make sure his rights are not violated?

The Mental Health system in this country sucks. The answer today is to wait untnil they commit a crime and then institutionalize them in prison. Frankly, if he had been treated at the time of the original accident --transferred to the mental health ward as part of of his rehab--this probably could have been dealt with from the beginning. . . .

1. Good points, ggt. I should have mentioned that my Wikipedia link is kind of legalistic. How matters actually work in CA is something I don't know here in the other side of the country.

2. There are also the budgetary cutbacks in public services. Nevertheless, I bet that CA likely will spend much more on this person than if an intervention had occurred. I wonder if his close friends feel guilty about not being proactive. Quite possibly they should.

3. I have an 0600 flight Friday in an airport two hours away, so must log off shortly should have logged off two hours ago. Good night.

170 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Oct 12, 2011 11:21:19pm

re: #168 freetoken

Big stigma... big cost.

That's why, in my defense of having an at-least-minimal public health care system that mental illness would be covered (along with any communicable diseases, especially STDs.)

Mental Health Parity in Insurance coverage has been long sought after. It has gotten better, as treatment has gotten more mainstreamed--meds, etc.

It would be nice to see some sort of Mental Health Physical required by schools and covered by insurance--to help people understand what they need to do to take care of their mental health and identify problem areas.

We all have "tendencies" towards depression, anxiety or whatever. There is nothing wrong in knowing ourselves and knowing what to look out for in ourselves and our loved-ones. We know if we are genetically at risk for heart disease and diabetes --why not depression and addiction?

171 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Oct 12, 2011 11:23:00pm

re: #169 jvic

1. Good points, ggt. I should have mentioned that my Wikipedia link is kind of legalistic. How matters actually work in CA is something I don't know here in the other side of the country.

2. There are also the budgetary cutbacks in public services. Nevertheless, I bet that CA likely will spend much more on this person than if an intervention had occurred. I wonder if his close friends feel guilty about not being proactive. Quite possibly they should.

3. I have an 0600 flight Friday in an airport two hours away, so must log off shortly should have logged off two hours ago. Good night.

They now get to feed and house him for the rest of his life. And a little boy has lost both parents, for all intents and purposes.

Same argument for getting special education courses to the kids who need them. It's cheaper to educate than adjudicate, yet we still have adults who can't read filling our prisons.

172 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Oct 12, 2011 11:26:03pm

I have to sleep as well.

Such a sad story. For all we know, he could have rejected treatment or been treated and gone off his meds.

Why a person would choose to commit such acts will probably always be a mystery.

173 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Wed, Oct 12, 2011 11:28:59pm

re: #136 freetoken

Those are questions that probably could be rephrased.

The objection some have to Gus's Page appears to be that we'll all just end up in the logical fallacy:

A: DeKraii is a mass murderer
B: DeKraii is a Tea Party supporter
Therefore: All Tea Party supporters are mass murderers

I don't think Gus (or Charles, who promoted the Page to the front) are trying to make that case.

Yeah, pre-emptive MBF mentality.

I would only add that people stupid enough to lapse into that kind of reaction only think that way because that's what they think about others.

174 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 12:38:18am

OK, silly question. Cain v. Obama - who's potentially more strong?

175 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 12:52:26am

re: #174 Sergey Romanov

OK, silly question. Cain v. Obama - who's potentially more strong?

Very silly question.

Cain vs any incumbent. No contest.

176 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 12:54:15am

re: #175 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

Very silly question.

Cain vs any incumbent. No contest.

Another silly question then - why does he seem to rise meteorically?

177 laZardo  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 12:56:29am

re: #176 Sergey Romanov

Another silly question then - why does he seem to rise meteorically?

Because they don't realize how much of a mindfuck it will be to have both major candidates of a presidential election be "ethnic minorities."

:3

178 goddamnedfrank  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 1:06:36am

re: #174 Sergey Romanov

OK, silly question. Cain v. Obama - who's potentially more strong?

The more people dig into Cain's economic plan the more he's going to fall apart. From his issues page on entitlements:

For the generations or workers who have paid into Social Security and Medicare, the federal government’s inevitable failure to pay them as they retire is undeniably stealing. These are generations who have worked and sacrificed to leave this country a better place for their children and grand children as they retire. The current behavior of an out of control federal government does little to ease their minds.

The federal government has imposed expensive and often counter-productive social and welfare programs on the states and the people. It is time to admit the mistakes, and get the federal government out of the way. This will allow states, cities, churches, charities and businesses to offer a helping hand instead of a handout where they live. People closest to the problems are the best ones to solve the problems effectively.

Many people either don't realize the specifics of what his plan calls for, or haven't thought it through. It replaces SS and Medicare withholdings and doesn't take in enough money to cover either program. That's why he's talking about churches and charities, he's offering everyone a sink or swim approach, with no safety net. If you're sinking then you're supposed to reach out and beg for help from religious organizations and private charities that have finite resources and may very well not give a shit about you. His national sales tax is absolutely unheard of, has no exceptions for food, rent, medical expenses, or the purchase of new cars and homes. It would hit the economy like the Ebola virus, bleeding it out almost instantly.

The whole 999 thing really could only come from the marketing mind of a chain restauranteur, it sounds good superficially, has a snappy ring, but it's an unbelievably simplistic, damaging and unrealistic way to fund a government.

He's also a colon cancer survivor, crotchety mean old theocrat who opposes abortion in all instances, not to save the life of the mother, not in cases of rape or incest, no exceptions.

The Tea Party like him because he's down with their dogma, economic, religious, and social. He's useful to them because he's willing to validate and repeat all the bullshit they want to hear about black people, that they're brainwashed, lazy and on some Democratic Plantation.

179 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 1:13:25am

Ahahahaha!

[Link: www.huffingtonpost.com...]

Ayatollah Khamenei, Iran Leader, Says Occupy Wall Street Will Topple Capitalism

180 SpaceJesus  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 1:24:21am

re: #174 Sergey Romanov

like in a fight? shit. i think cain.

181 boxhead  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 1:25:47am

re: #174 Sergey Romanov

OK, silly question. Cain v. Obama - who's potentially more strong?

I just don't see the GOP/Tea Party base coming out in force for Cain...

just saying...

182 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 1:27:57am

re: #176 Sergey Romanov

Another silly question then - why does he seem to rise meteorically?

You mean, right now, today?

Give it another month.

183 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 1:37:14am

re: #178 goddamnedfrank

The Tea Party like him because he's down with their dogma, economic, religious, and social. He's useful to them because he's willing to validate and repeat all the bullshit they want to hear about black people, that they're brainwashed, lazy and on some Democratic Plantation.

Well, they like him until they find out he has been an advocate for affirmative action.

They like him, today, because he is one of the 17 Black Conservatives that allows themselves to be used as a club to beat us 95%ers. They are DEEPLY resentful that they are impotent to browbeat and harangue us 95%ers into voting Republican by invoking the very and Confederacy they openly celebrate.

I think the whole spectacle is hilarious, though I do worry for Mr. Cain's mental health. having been one myself, I know precisely what kind of shit you have to eat on a daily basis to be a self-identified Black conservative token, waved around by race-resentful confederates still smarting over te end of slavery and segregation. It's got to be 80 times worse today than it was when I was one.

184 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 1:39:02am

re: #177 laZardo

Because they don't realize how much of a mindfuck it will be to have both major candidates of a presidential election be "ethnic minorities" BLK.

:3

fxd

For the next 15 minutes, Herman Cain has the upper hand over them in this way. I think it's funny.

185 boxhead  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 1:39:31am

re: #180 SpaceJesus

like in a fight? shit. i think cain.

I don't know about that, Obama is in pretty good shape.

186 researchok  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 1:57:32am

Morning, all

187 boxhead  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 1:59:53am

re: #184 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

fxd

I'd wager any ethic minority would cause anxiety. As well as non conservative christian. Already the Mormon religion has been attacked. I would expect a Catholic would be similarly treated. Probably even the liberal, women priests having, and homosexual priest having Christians.

188 boxhead  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 2:00:45am

re: #186 researchok

Morning, all

morning to you

189 researchok  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 2:04:06am

re: #188 boxhead

How goes the battle?

190 Obdicut  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 2:05:45am

On the subject of the page; the description of the accident actually makes me feel sorry for the dude. I can't imagine going through that, watching a loved one die in a terrible accident like that.

Obviously doesn't excuse anything he did, but hell that'd mess you the hell up.

191 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 2:05:52am

re: #176 Sergey Romanov

Another silly question then - why does he seem to rise meteorically?

Perry lost the Tea Party bump, it went to Cain and he's also picking up the Palin contingent. Massive boost. Temporarily.

192 boxhead  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 2:06:17am

re: #189 researchok

How goes the battle?

heh... quiet now I guess... :) not a lot to disagree over on this topic other than motives, both prime and secondary.

193 researchok  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 2:07:17am

re: #192 boxhead

heh... quiet now I guess... :) not a lot to disagree over on this topic other than motives, both prime and secondary.

I'm late to the party- I don't know what's up on the block

194 Obdicut  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 2:08:35am

re: #183 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

He seemed actually shocked by the n*****head ranch thing.

195 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 2:11:07am

re: #184 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

fxd

For the next 15 minutes, Herman Cain has the upper hand over them in this way. I think it's funny.

Listen to this shit:

That guy (hardcore birther & Palin supporter) is basically saying that Obama is not black but Kenyan and Cain is the real black American. I believe we will hear this kind of crap a lot and more and more if Cain stays in.

196 boxhead  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 2:11:13am

re: #193 researchok

I'm late to the party- I don't know what's up on the block

Just the Seal Beach shootings. It appears the dude was a big tea party guy. Also, just recently he lost a custody battle with his ex which was one of the hair cutters. So was it tea party influenced hate, or domestic violence, or both?

197 Varek Raith  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 2:12:24am

re: #194 Obdicut

He seemed actually shocked by the n*****head ranch thing.

I got the same vibe from him.
Really took the wind out of his sails.

198 researchok  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 2:14:07am

re: #196 boxhead

Just the Seal Beach shootings. It appears the dude was a big tea party guy. Also, just recently he lost a custody battle with his ex which was one of the hair cutters. So was it tea party influenced hate, or domestic violence, or both?

Non related, I believe.

Domestic violence is a cultural issue- crosses all political lines.

199 boxhead  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 2:14:55am

re: #195 000G

Listen to this shit:

[Video]That guy (hardcore Palin supporter) is basically saying that Obama is not black but Kenyan and Cain is the real black American. I believe we will hear this kind of crap a lot and more and more if Cain stays in.

I suppose it is factually correct that Obama's African blood come directly from Africa and Cain's has been in USA for generations. it is a shame this stuff is even brought up...

200 Varek Raith  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 2:16:56am

re: #199 boxhead

I suppose it is factually correct that Obama's African blood come directly from Africa and Cain's has been in USA for generations. it is a shame this stuff is even brought up...

Of course, we all can trace ourselves back to Africa.
*Wingnut heads asplode*

201 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 2:17:59am
202 boxhead  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 2:18:02am

re: #198 researchok

Non related, I believe.

Domestic violence is a cultural issue- crosses all political lines.

The thought proposed was that exposure to toxic dogma may have put this person on the edge allowing the domestic stuff to push him over. Also it has been reported that this person was not mentally stable.

bottom line much pain was caused today. Pain that will not go away..

203 boxhead  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 2:19:15am

re: #200 Varek Raith

Of course, we all can trace ourselves back to Africa.
*Wingnut heads asplode*

No... My family lines trace back to The Garden of Eden, you heathen.

//

204 Varek Raith  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 2:20:40am

re: #201 000G

An Occupy Wall Street member talks with Hasidic Jews in Zuccotti Park near Wall Street in New York, on October 12, 2011.

More "Debt Is Slavery" flag waving

I don't get this sign: [Link: news.daylife.com...] Detergent? Gastank? What happened?

Hmm, some kind of reference to the self-sabotaging of our 'economic engine'?
Or I'm just reading way too much into the sign.
:)

205 researchok  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 2:20:52am

re: #202 boxhead

The thought proposed was that exposure to toxic dogma may have put this person on the edge allowing the domestic stuff to push him over. Also it has been reported that this person was not mentally stable.

bottom line much pain was caused today. Pain that will not go away..

Agreed.

His politics may have served as a delivery vehicle for his dysfunction, but no more. One way or another, he'd exercise his craziness.

206 boxhead  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 2:22:49am

re: #201 000G

An Occupy Wall Street member talks with Hasidic Jews in Zuccotti Park near Wall Street in New York, on October 12, 2011.

More "Debt Is Slavery" flag waving

I don't get this sign: [Link: news.daylife.com...] Detergent? Gastank? What happened?

I used to like putting valve cleaning gas in my truck. But since a E85 pump was installed near my house and my engine is a flex fuel engine, I am buying corn squeezings gas at 40 cents less per gallon than my dinosaur burning friends.

w00t

207 boxhead  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 2:25:21am

re: #205 researchok

Agreed.

His politics may have served as a delivery vehicle for his dysfunction, but no more. One way or another, he'd exercise his craziness.

yeah... the further tragedy is that preventing something like this in the future seems impossible.

208 researchok  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 2:27:25am

re: #207 boxhead

yeah... the further tragedy is that preventing something like this in the future seems impossible.

No cure for crazy...yet.

That, and people aren't really prepared for adult relationships and adult responsibility and accountability. Lots of unrealistic expectations.

209 Obdicut  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 2:29:33am

re: #207 boxhead

I'm serious about people going through divorces handing in their guns for the time time period and only having them returned after a mental health review.

With exceptions for those that can prove need, of course.

210 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 2:31:59am

re: #199 boxhead

I suppose it is factually correct that Obama's African blood come directly from Africa and Cain's has been in USA for generations. it is a shame this stuff is even brought up...

Eh, blood, schmud. When Obama was a kid, both would have to ride Jim Crow.

211 boxhead  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 2:32:14am

re: #208 researchok

No cure for crazy...yet.

That, and people aren't really prepared for adult relationships and adult responsibility and accountability. Lots of unrealistic expectorations.

A lot is to said for the whole "it takes a village" stuff. And not just for raising children. For mental support for adults too. Everyone needs friends and family to lean on and get called out by when times are tough. Much of it is that far too many people are unable to ask for help, or have friends to ask for help. Life is not easy.... but good >> bad if done right.

212 researchok  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 2:35:00am

re: #211 boxhead

A lot is to said for the whole "it takes a village" stuff. And not just for raising children. For mental support for adults too. Everyone needs friends and family to lean on and get called out by when times are tough. Much of it is that far too many people are unable to ask for help, or have friends to ask for help. Life is not easy... but good >> bad if done right.

I agree. Technology nowadays actually serves to isolate people from real interpersonal relationships.

Nothing can replace a real community/family/tribe, etc.

213 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 2:36:45am

re: #194 Obdicut

He seemed actually shocked by the n*****head ranch thing.

He wasted no time in dumping the topic, too. Thing was, I could hardly blame him, since I didn't see the press pestering any other candidates for their views on n*****head ranch, least of all Perry himself.

Herman Cain lets himself be that thing on the pressure cooker re: conservatism and this country's anti-Black history. Along with the conservative Confederate flagwavers, this is something else we see in every single generation.

214 boxhead  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 2:40:05am

re: #209 Obdicut

I'm serious about people going through divorces handing in their guns for the time time period and only having them returned after a mental health review.

With exceptions for those that can prove need, of course.

I can hear the screams saying that honest Americans will be left defenseless from bad people because of this.... The kind of people who need their guns taken away should never have access to them to begin with. But until we invent a mind reading device........

I went through my own life event in which I had to decide every day if I was going to be positive or not. Being positive won. It was hard. Losing your best friend, wife, and mother of your child to cancer will put your mind in a very troubling state. It still is a choice how a person decides to interact with the world.

not sure where I was going with that... I think I was trying to say removing rights from people over life events seems tricky and open for abuse...

215 boxhead  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 2:40:58am

re: #212 researchok

I agree. Technology nowadays actually serves to isolate people from real interpersonal relationships.

Nothing can replace a real community/family/tribe, etc.

I was lucky to have such a support group when life came knocking on my door.

216 researchok  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 2:42:46am

re: #214 boxhead

not sure where I was going with that... I think I was trying to say removing rights from people over life events seems tricky and open for abuse..

Yup- slippery slope and all that.

217 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 2:44:43am

re: #195 000G

Listen to this shit:

[Video]That guy (hardcore birther & Palin supporter) is basically saying that Obama is not black but Kenyan and Cain is the real black American. I believe we will hear this kind of crap a lot and more and more if Cain stays in.

Oh yeah. It's going to get much worse the closer we get to Nov '12.

These dumb, ignorant confederates have been screeching that bullshit at me about Cain for the past 6 mos.

I had one frothing at me last night that "Black means someone who looks like Herman Cain." Lol. Really.

My response was something similar to what I wrote in #210.

218 boxhead  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 2:49:34am

re: #217 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

Oh yeah. It's going to get much worse the closer we get to Nov '12.

These dumb, ignorant confederates have been screeching that bullshit at me about Cain for the past 6 mos.

I had one frothing at me last night that "Black means someone who looks like Herman Cain." Lol. Really.

My response was something similar to what I wrote in #210.

sigh..... people too often are a disappointment...

219 Obdicut  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 2:50:41am

re: #214 boxhead

Sure it's open to abuse. But we know that divorce is one of the most traumatic events that you can go through, we know it messes with your head. When you know someone is headed towards a period of huge mental stress, I don't think it's unreasonable to ask them to put their guns aside during it.

Or gun laws focus far too much, I believe, on the point of purchase and not enough on the 'bearing' of the arms, the responsibility of ownership.

And I'd like to note the slippery slope is sometimes true, and sometimes a fallacy.

220 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 2:51:45am

re: #218 boxhead

sigh... people too often are a disappointment...

Yeah, you see so much of the same repeated crap in a lifetime, it's hard not to get stuck in cynicism.

This is why I love cats. lol

221 researchok  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 2:52:37am

re: #219 Obdicut

Sure it's open to abuse. But we know that divorce is one of the most traumatic events that you can go through, we know it messes with your head. When you know someone is headed towards a period of huge mental stress, I don't think it's unreasonable to ask them to put their guns aside during it.

Or gun laws focus far too much, I believe, on the point of purchase and not enough on the 'bearing' of the arms, the responsibility of ownership.

And I'd like to note the slippery slope is sometimes true, and sometimes a fallacy.

The problem is that the majority of domestic violence does not occur within the framework of a divorce scenario.

222 RogueOne  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 2:53:07am

Good morning folks

223 Obdicut  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 2:55:08am

re: #221 researchok

The problem is that the majority of domestic violence does not occur within the framework of a divorce scenario.

So?

224 boxhead  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 2:56:05am

re: #219 Obdicut

Sure it's open to abuse. But we know that divorce is one of the most traumatic events that you can go through, we know it messes with your head. When you know someone is headed towards a period of huge mental stress, I don't think it's unreasonable to ask them to put their guns aside during it.

Or gun laws focus far too much, I believe, on the point of purchase and not enough on the 'bearing' of the arms, the responsibility of ownership.

And I'd like to note the slippery slope is sometimes true, and sometimes a fallacy.

Ok... but divorce is not the only traumatic event. I'd say not the most either. Should we then attempt to remove guns from all very traumatic events? I would not want to be in charge of figuring out how to attempt it. And a gun is not the only way to kill others. A car would work just fine. I understand what you are saying, I just don't see how to cover all the bases.

225 boxhead  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 2:57:34am

re: #220 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

Yeah, you see so much of the same repeated crap in a lifetime, it's hard not to get stuck in cynicism.

This is why I love cats. lol

LOL... I can has cheezburger?

226 researchok  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 2:58:44am

re: #223 Obdicut

So?

So taking guns from those in a divorce scenario only addresses a tiny portion of the domestic violence problem.

It's like taking computers from cyber bullies because some kids might hurt themselves.

The underlying cultural issues are not dealt with.

227 Obdicut  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 2:59:18am

re: #224 boxhead

Ok... but divorce is not the only traumatic event. I'd say not the most either. Should we then attempt to remove guns from all very traumatic events? I would not want to be in charge of figuring out how to attempt it. And a gun is not the only way to kill others. A car would work just fine. I understand what you are saying, I just don't see how to cover all the bases.

I'm not trying to cover all the bases.

228 boxhead  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 3:00:48am

re: #227 Obdicut

I'm not trying to cover all the bases.

OK... Implementing your suggestion appears very difficult. I would not want to do it.

229 Varek Raith  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 3:01:33am

Nice to see the GOP focusing on the important issue of abortion and not that pointless jobs thingy.
9_9

230 Obdicut  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 3:01:41am

re: #226 researchok

Sure. I'm not trying to address the whole problem at once. I'm a big fan of incremental success. People who try to address the whole problem at once normally fail, often disastrously. People who try to fix problems in an incremental way often make incremental progress, easily dismissable but having real-world positive effect.

I'm a harm-reduction guy more than a demand-reduction guy or a 'change-your-whole-gestalt' kind of guy.

231 Obdicut  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 3:02:07am

re: #228 boxhead

OK... Implementing your suggestion appears very difficult. I would not want to do it.

Don't worry. It wouldn't have a prayer of happening.

232 RogueOne  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 3:03:07am

re: #159 000G

Caption writer goes rogue for OWS:
[Link: www.theglobeandmail.com...]

WTH was that all about? Somebody is a little irritable.

233 researchok  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 3:04:55am

re: #230 Obdicut

That's a valid argument.

I don't agree, though- before long we'd be inundated with well intentioned 'Big Brother'.

I'd rather see us spend money on ethical behavior (read:non religious, non political) instruction in the classroom.

234 Obdicut  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 3:05:09am

[Link: www.courthousenews.com...]

A homeowner claims that after a motorist smashed a car into his house and ran away, gun-toting school district police officers showed up and choked him and broke his collarbone after handcuffing him, ignoring his statements that he lived there.

James Page says he "was sitting in the den at his home" at about 5:30 p.m. on Oct. 20, 2009, when he heard "tires screeching, a loud bang," and his son screaming outside.

Page says he went outside and saw that a car had smashed into his house, and the driver was fleeing. He chased him but couldn't catch him.

Then things got worse.

Page says when he returned home, North Forest Independent School District Officer Roberson and Sgt. Chadd Gilford were there. (Roberson's first name is unknown.)

"As Mr. Page attempted to inform the officers of the description and whereabouts of the suspect, they drew their guns, pointed them at him, and ordered him to the ground. Mr. Page raised his arms in submission and informed the officers that he resided in the home and again they ordered him to the ground," according to the complaint.

The complaint continues: "Several neighbors also informed the officers that Mr. Page resided in the home and the officers told them to go back inside their homes.

"The officers detained and handcuffed Mr. Page. He informed them that he had not been in the vehicle and that he resided in the home. They responded by telling him to 'shut the fuck up.' The officers then attempted to lift Mr. Page off of the ground by the chain connecting the two handcuffs. When Mr. Page again informed them that he resided in the home and had not been in the vehicle, the officers began to choke him and forced him back down into the concrete driveway while still in handcuffs. The officers then placed Mr. Page in the back of a patrol car."

Page says the cops also arrested his minor son, Demetri Walton, and put them into the squad car too.

235 RogueOne  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 3:07:02am

re: #176 Sergey Romanov

Another silly question then - why does he seem to rise meteorically?

People love a good speaker.

236 Varek Raith  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 3:07:08am

re: #234 Obdicut

Stupid, stupid cop.

237 boxhead  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 3:09:24am

re: #234 Obdicut

[Link: www.courthousenews.com...]

AAARRRGGG

WTF... I'd love to know what the Police had to say about this since the article did not have a quote.

When the police are the evil ones, shit is fucked up.

238 Obdicut  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 3:11:38am

re: #237 boxhead

In a mild defense of the cops I'll say that usually they don't present their side of the story until later in the process. It is possible this dude was screaming and jumping around like a crazy man. It's possible he matched some description they'd already gotten.

However, unfortunately, these cases are common enough that his complaint is quite believable.

239 boxhead  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 3:12:51am

re: #238 Obdicut

In a mild defense of the cops I'll say that usually they don't present their side of the story until later in the process. It is possible this dude was screaming and jumping around like a crazy man. It's possible he matched some description they'd already gotten.

However, unfortunately, these cases are common enough that his complaint is quite believable.

yeah... I seem to read them far too often... all of them should lose their jobs to start with.

240 boxhead  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 3:13:32am

ok.. enough for me... night all... here's to hoping for a better day

241 Obdicut  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 3:15:15am

Huh. Reading the financial news and the court news, there's actually a lot of activity on prosecution of fraud and tax-avoidance stuff.

I wonder if it's simply coincidental.

[Link: www.courthousenews.com...]

Federal prosecutors charged two advisers with an unspecified Swiss bank of conspiring with U.S. clients and others to duck taxes by hiding more than $600 million in offshore accounts.
The indictment accuses Daniela Casadei and Fabio Frazzetto of hiding money for U.S. clients for years, Casadei since the early 1990s, and Frazzetto since 2005.
Both worked as "client advisors" with "Swiss Bank No. 1," according to the indictment.
U.S. taxpayers - and dodgers - are required to report offshore deposits of $10,000 or more. The indictment claims Casadei and Frazzetto used phony names, such as Hydrangea and Red Rubin, in sham corporate accounts to help U.S. citizens dodge taxes.
If convicted, they could be sentenced to up to 25 years in prison.
The indictment is part of Uncle Sam's continuing campaign against Swiss banking secrecy. Under diplomatic pressure, Swiss bank UBS agreed in 2009 to hand over more than 4,000 names of U.S. citizen account holders. That deal caused a flurry of "voluntary disclosures" from tax cheaters.

242 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 3:18:18am

re: #232 RogueOne

WTH was that all about? Somebody is a little irritable.

Made for a good laugh, though.

243 Cannadian Club Akbar  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 3:22:11am

Morning Honcos.

244 Obdicut  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 3:25:06am

re: #242 000G

Those are friggin' hilarious. Especially the calling out of 'lefty' celebs for their incredibly privileged lifestyle.

245 RogueOne  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 3:25:47am

Point/Counterpoint:
Image: morespeech.jpg

246 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 3:27:25am

Good write-ups in English from recently on the german government trojan scandal:

[Link: www.wired.com...]
[Link: redtape.msnbc.msn.com...]
[Link: www.dw-world.de...]

247 Cannadian Club Akbar  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 3:28:58am

re: #242 000G

Made for a good laugh, though.

Are you kidding me? That was fucking hilarious.:)

248 Cannadian Club Akbar  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 3:31:31am

Why am I getting the spinning wheel of death?

249 Cannadian Club Akbar  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 3:33:44am

WTF?

250 Cannadian Club Akbar  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 3:39:20am

test

251 Obdicut  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 3:39:45am

re: #250 Cannadian Club Akbar

You're okay, man. Just hold onto the floor until the spins go away. I'll get a bucket.

252 BongCrodny  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 3:43:55am

re: #176 Sergey Romanov

Another silly question then - why does he seem to rise meteorically?

All the other gum has lost its flavor.

253 Cannadian Club Akbar  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 3:46:22am

At about 2 a.m., Chaz Ursomanno was showing his girlfriend, Naomi Ensell, 24, a handgun at their residence at 9391 87th Terrace N, according to deputies.

Ensell told him to put the gun away, but he claimed that it was safe and unloaded, deputies say. He put the gun to his head and pulled the trigger. The gun did not fire.

He put the gun to his head and pulled the trigger a second time. This time, the gun went off, deputies said.

[Link: www.tampabay.com...]

Ah, Darwin....

254 JEA62  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 3:57:14am

So Perry misspoke and said '16th" instead of "18th". The nut was a TP supporter.

Charles, you're better than this gotcha nonsense. This is what I expect from FireDogLake and Truthdig, not here.

255 Obdicut  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 3:57:57am

re: #254 JEA62

You should boycott him. That'll learn him.

256 RogueOne  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 4:11:17am

“Shut that fucking thing off before I slap you!”
[Link: masscopblock.org...]

Those are the words that UMass Lowell student Brendan Brown heard shortly after he trained his cell phone camera on several campus police officers last Saturday.

Brown told me that he was leaving a friend’s house when he noticed a “big brawl” taking place outside an apartment. When police appeared on the scene to break up the fight, Brown stood a reasonable distance away from the action, took out his cell phone, and began documenting the activity. In less than a minute, the officers turned to face Brown and one asked him, “You all set over there with the camera?”

“Yeah, I’m all set,” Brown responded.

“Yeah, who are you?” the officer asked.

While Brown explained to the police that he was merely observing what was going on, an officer began walking toward him. That’s when the officer threatened to assault Brown.

257 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 4:12:44am

Amanda Palmer performing with her ukulele @ OWS yesterday:

258 RogueOne  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 4:13:14am

I don't know if anyone has noticed but I can be hard on cops sometimes....In an effort at being evenhanded here is a group of officers who displayed remarkable restraint:

NYPD Cops fight girls in subway:

259 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 4:15:22am

Hey, BC, did you have that interview after all?

260 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 4:17:29am

From life of prostitutes:

Happy birthday Mr Warlord! Hilary Swank and Jean-Claude Van Damme under fire for infamous Chechen leader's party
[Link: www.dailymail.co.uk...]

261 Decatur Deb  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 4:17:48am

re: #256 RogueOne

“Shut that fucking thing off before I slap you!”
[Link: masscopblock.org...]

[Video]

Strange--the policemen who ride around with the cameramen on "Cops" are so polite.

262 RogueOne  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 4:21:22am

re: #261 Decatur Deb

Strange--the policemen who ride around with the cameramen on "Cops" are so polite.

Students are #3 on the list of cops favorite beating targets, right behind black people and hippies. Remember this from last year?

Prince Georges Co., they're screwed up.

263 Cannadian Club Akbar  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 4:22:48am

re: #260 Sergey Romanov

From life of prostitutes:

Happy birthday Mr Warlord! Hilary Swank and Jean-Claude Van Damme under fire for infamous Chechen leader's party
[Link: www.dailymail.co.uk...]

Hillary Swank says "my bad". Van Damme is still a douche.
[Link: www.huffingtonpost.com...]

264 Cannadian Club Akbar  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 4:24:48am

re: #262 RogueOne

Well, he was wearing white pants....
///

265 sattv4u2  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 4:25:57am

Np wonder the Detroit Lions have been doing so well this year and attendance is up

[Link: www.myfoxdc.com...]

266 bmiller11757  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 4:32:21am

All I know is that the man has bigger boobs than I do.

267 sattv4u2  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 4:33:04am

re: #266 bmiller11757

All I know is that the man has bigger boobs than I do.

Are yours hairier?

268 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 4:33:57am

re: #263 Cannadian Club Akbar

Hillary Swank says "my bad". Van Damme is still a douche.
[Link: www.huffingtonpost.com...]

Yeah, as if she didn't know.

269 RogueOne  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 4:36:19am

re: #268 Sergey Romanov

Yeah, as if she didn't know.

Maybe she's never seen Universal Soldier
Image: MV5BMTczNDI4NDM5Ml5BMl5BanBnXkFtZTcwMzY0NjYyMQ@@._V1._SY317_CR5,0,214,317_.jpg

270 Cannadian Club Akbar  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 4:36:28am

re: #268 Sergey Romanov

Yeah, as if she didn't know.

Remember all the singers who performed for Kdaffy's sons?

271 RogueOne  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 4:37:57am

So an old retired guy finally finds a hobby and The Man gets all upset and comes down on him:

Phillip Winikoff, 81, Allegedly Impersonated Doctor, Performed Breast Exams
[Link: www.huffingtonpost.com...]

An 81-year-old Florida man, who police say posed as a door-to-door physician and duped at least two women into having their breasts examined, has struck a plea deal with prosecutors.

Phillip Winikoff was charged in 2006 with three counts of sexual battery, two counts of practicing medicine without a license, two counts of simple battery and one count of using the title of doctor without a license.

272 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 4:42:09am

re: #270 Cannadian Club Akbar

Remember all the singers who performed for Kdaffy's sons?

No. Some. Vaguely.

273 Cannadian Club Akbar  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 4:44:12am

re: #272 Sergey Romanov

No. Some. Vaguely.

[Link: www.reuters.com...]

274 RogueOne  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 4:45:03am

Escondido settles suit for to teen wrongfully accused of murder after coerced confession:
[Link: www.nctimes.com...]

One of the three teenage boys wrongfully accused of murdering Stephanie Crowe in 1998 has agreed to a confidential settlement in his lawsuit against four Escondido police officers, an Oceanside police officer, and a psychologist, according to court records.
.....
Aaron Houser, Joshua Treadway and Michael Crowe were arrested on suspicion of killing 12-year-old Stephanie Crowe, who was found stabbed to death on her bedroom floor on Jan. 21, 1998.

Michael Crowe, then 14, and Treadway and Houser, both 15 at the time, were charged with the girl's murder, largely based on damning statements made during their interrogations.

A judge hearing the criminal case against the boys later ruled that most of the statements had been coerced.

Charges were dropped after DNA testing revealed Stephanie's blood was on the clothing of a mentally ill stranger seen in the Crowe neighborhood on the night of the slaying. The stranger, Richard Tuite, was later convicted of voluntary manslaughter.

275 Darth Vader Gargoyle  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 4:51:24am

Good Morning Honcos!!

Going on a school trip to El Paso this weekend. Will visit JTF-North and the Border Patrol as well as the real and virtual fence. Should be interesting. We are not going into Mexico.

276 RogueOne  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 4:52:01am

More from Fullerton, CA:

Fullerton College Student Says Cops Wrongfully Arrested Him And Beat Him Up in 2008
[Link: blogs.ocweekly.com...]

Christopher Spicer Janku alleges that officer Perry Thayer slammed his face against a curb and then stepped on his head with his boot.

Here's what Janku says happened, according to the FFFF post:

"He purposely put my face into a gutter full of disgusting dirty gutter water to the point where I was almost choking on it, and pushed down on my head to the point where my head almost caved it and I was screaming for my life."


Officers then allegedly put him in the back of a squad car without his seatbelt on and repeatedly slammed on the brakes, so his head hit the cage. Janku filed a complaint, the post says, but was stonewalled until recently when he was told to get an attorney.

Janku's story is one example in the slew of allegations of police wrongdoing, which have surfaced since Fullerton policemen beat Kelly Thomas to death in early July.

And, Tracy Wood of The Voice of OC reported yesterday that Michael Gennaco, who the city hired to investigate the police department's policies and practices, has some forthcoming dirt on the city, too, although he didn't give any specifics.

Wood writes: "Asked if more disclosures are coming, he replied, 'Oh, yeah. There's more. There always is.'"

277 RogueOne  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 4:53:15am

re: #275 rwdflynavy

Good Morning Honcos!!

Going on a school trip to El Paso this weekend. Will visit JTF-North and the Border Patrol as well as the real and virtual fence. Should be interesting. We are not going into Mexico.

Chicken! From what I've read El Paso has turned into a safe city, it wasn't like that 20 years ago.

278 Cannadian Club Akbar  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 4:53:40am

re: #275 rwdflynavy

Please send me a virtual post card from the virtual fence.:)

279 Darth Vader Gargoyle  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 4:54:58am

re: #277 RogueOne

Chicken! From what I've read El Paso has turned into a safe city, it wasn't like that 20 years ago.

The Commander of Ft Bliss has put Mexico off limits for his troops. Apparently there is some kind of drug violence there.
//

280 Cannadian Club Akbar  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 4:56:22am

re: #279 rwdflynavy

The Commander of Ft Bliss has put Mexico off limits for his troops. Apparently there is some kind of drug violence there.
//

There wouldn't be any violence if we would just open our borders.
///

281 RogueOne  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 5:03:01am

re: #279 rwdflynavy

The Commander of Ft Bliss has put Mexico off limits for his troops. Apparently there is some kind of drug violence there.
//

Have you ever been to Juarez? Like I said, I haven't been there in 20 years but it was a rough neighborhood even back then. I thought it was a lot worse than Tijuana and Nogales. I could live in Nogales.

282 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 5:03:04am

I see that that "independent trader" that caused such a ruckus with his BBC interview recently finally made it to Alex Jones:

283 Darth Vader Gargoyle  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 5:05:09am

re: #281 RogueOne

Have you ever been to Juarez? Like I said, I haven't been there in 20 years but it was a rough neighborhood even back then. I thought it was a lot worse than Tijuana and Nogales. I could live in Nogales.

Nope, went across at Laredo as a kid. Off to class. Stay classy Lizards!!!

284 RogueOne  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 5:12:32am

An African-American business owner claims she is being harassed by Ohio police.
[Link: www2.nbc4i.com...]

POWELL, Ohio --

When Dr. Marie Dove opened a daycare center in the Powell Center, it was a dream come true.

Baby Doves Enrichment Center opened in 2009, and soon after, Dove said strange things began to happen.

"I was leaving work late one night, and I pulled over by Powell police. I ask the officer what I did, and he said, 'Nothing.' He just asked me if I was lost," said Dove.

Dove said she remembers one occasion when the boyfriend of an employee was stopped by police. He is black, she is white.

"He was questioned, asked for ID, told to get out of the car and she was asked if she was OK. That's one of things that sticks in my mind consistently," said Dove.

Between the pullovers and a few acts of vandalism, Dove consulted Mark Butler, president of the Delaware County NAACP last week. Together, they took Dove's concerns to Powell City Council. Last Wednesday, they met with Powell Police Chief Gary Vest. Butler said he feels the meeting will lead to nowhere.

"The chief indicated that he had a department policy that they will stop anyone they don't know. Now I have a problem with that," explained Butler.

Everyone should have a problem with that, including the courts.

285 Decatur Deb  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 5:15:24am

re: #279 rwdflynavy

The Commander of Ft Bliss has put Mexico off limits for his troops. Apparently there is some kind of drug violence there.
//

Air Defense Artillery is wusses--but you'd know that.

286 Decatur Deb  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 5:16:09am

re: #280 Cannadian Club Akbar

There wouldn't be any violence if we would just open our borders.
///

Well, they're always welcome in Alabama.

287 Cannadian Club Akbar  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 5:20:10am

re: #286 Decatur Deb

Well, they're always welcome in Alabama.

You guys and South Carolina.
[Link: www.huffingtonpost.com...]

288 Decatur Deb  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 5:23:44am

re: #287 Cannadian Club Akbar

You guys and South Carolina.
[Link: www.huffingtonpost.com...]

I was joking the other night when I said electrical service is next. I was just a couple days ahead of the news:

[Link: thinkprogress.org...]

289 RogueOne  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 5:25:25am

re: #286 Decatur Deb

Well, they're always welcome in Alabama.

Indiana is having the same problem:

Indiana farms feel impact of immigration crackdown
[Link: www.wthr.com...]

For at least the last 10 years I've had a group from Honduras come in once a year to get hitch systems made for a few buses they've bought. They come up to work all summer, pool their money together and buy buses to take back with them. They're making a killing operating their own little bus company down there. The first time they showed up the only one that spoke any english was a little kid but most of them have learned passable english now. Until I read the story last week it didn't occur to me that I haven't seen them this year.

290 Cannadian Club Akbar  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 5:31:25am

re: #289 RogueOne

There is a company here that runs from Miami all the way through Texas and then into Central America. Greyhound style buses. They pick up at some of the Mexican grocery stores (which also serve hot food that is effing awesome).

291 RogueOne  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 5:37:49am

re: #290 Cannadian Club Akbar

There is a company here that runs from Miami all the way through Texas and then into Central America. Greyhound style buses. They pick up at some of the Mexican grocery stores (which also serve hot food that is effing awesome).

These folks buy school buses. They'll connect 2 or 3 and tandem drive all the way from central indiana to honduras. That's one hell of a trip. I have to write a work ticket with the customers name on it and the first time he showed up he didn't want any paper record so he gave his name as Mr. Smith. That's what I've always called them, the smiths. They bring the whole family with them, wives, little kids, a baby now and then.

292 RogueOne  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 5:39:46am

This is horrible, but I laughed:

Market sells pizza with Amanda Knox: Tasteless or clever?
[Link: blog.seattlepi.com...]


Image: Knox-Whats-Next_AP.jpg

293 Cannadian Club Akbar  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 5:42:20am

re: #292 RogueOne

This is horrible, but I laughed:

Market sells pizza with Amanda Knox: Tasteless or clever?
[Link: blog.seattlepi.com...]

Image: Knox-Whats-Next_AP.jpg

Free knife set with every issue!!!
[Link: blog.seattlepi.com...]

294 AK-47%  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 5:44:10am

re: #292 RogueOne

This is horrible, but I laughed:

Market sells pizza with Amanda Knox: Tasteless or clever?
[Link: blog.seattlepi.com...]

Image: Knox-Whats-Next_AP.jpg

both.

295 RogueOne  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 5:44:31am

re: #293 Cannadian Club Akbar

Free knife set with every issue!!!
[Link: blog.seattlepi.com...]

People are twisted. Just when I've given up all hope on humanity stuff like this happens and they draw me back in....

296 RogueOne  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 5:48:27am

re: #293 Cannadian Club Akbar

Did you see the other story on there?

Seattle bartender shames wrong man after insult, bad tip
[Link: blog.seattlepi.com...]

I saw the original story everywhere, can you image the hatemail that guy has been getting? I saw this on 4chan and you know how screwed up those kids are.

297 Cannadian Club Akbar  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 5:54:03am

re: #296 RogueOne

"Hey, fat ass, where's my drink?"
/

298 AK-47%  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 5:58:19am

re: #296 RogueOne

Did you see the other story on there?

Seattle bartender shames wrong man after insult, bad tip
[Link: blog.seattlepi.com...]

I saw the original story everywhere, can you image the hatemail that guy has been getting? I saw this on 4chan and you know how screwed up those kids are.

vigilante justice meets someone in the wrong place at the wrong time.

299 RogueOne  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 5:59:08am

This will be fun: Top story on Yahoo News:

Who's behind the Wall St. protests?
[Link: news.yahoo.com...]

There has been much speculation over who is financing the disparate protest, which has spread to cities across America and lasted nearly four weeks. One name that keeps coming up is investor George Soros, who in September debuted in the top 10 list of wealthiest Americans. Conservative critics contend the movement is a Trojan horse for a secret Soros agenda.

Soros and the protesters deny any connection. But Reuters did find indirect financial links between Soros and Adbusters, an anti-capitalist group in Canada which started the protests with an inventive marketing campaign aimed at sparking an Arab Spring type uprising against Wall Street. Moreover, Soros and the protesters share some ideological ground.

More:

Soros in 2009 wrote in an editorial that the purchase of toxic bank assets would, "provide artificial life support for the banks at considerable expense to the taxpayer."

He urged the Obama administration to take bolder action, either by recapitalizing or nationalizing the banks and forcing them to lend at attractive rates. His advice went unheeded.

Agree with the first part, completely disagree with his advice to the admin.

300 Obdicut  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 6:00:22am

re: #299 RogueOne

The links between Soros and the protests are amazingly, amazingly tenuous.

301 AK-47%  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 6:01:38am

re: #299 RogueOne


I can grudginly accept the fact that we had to bail the banks out, but I am truly annoyed that we did not use the opportunity to impose some strict conditions and reforms on the banks.

Which, to me, sums up what the OWS protests are about (or should be).

302 RogueOne  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 6:03:14am

re: #300 Obdicut

The links between Soros and the protests are amazingly, amazingly tenuous.

I was prepared to make a joke about Soros supplying the BBQ yesterday and decided to skip it. I could have looked prescient.

303 RogueOne  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 6:05:10am

re: #301 ralphieboy

I can grudginly accept the fact that we had to bail the banks out, but I am truly annoyed that we did not use the opportunity to impose some strict conditions and reforms on the banks.

Which, to me, sums up what the OWS protests are about (or should be).

I don't think we should have bailed them out at all. Their quick recovery didn't seem to help anyone but their own shareholders.

304 AK-47%  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 6:07:44am

re: #303 RogueOne

I don't think we should have bailed them out at all. Their quick recovery didn't seem to help anyone but their own shareholders.

it helped no-one because we attached no terms or conditions to it.

We could have done the Free Market thing and let the entire economy collapse and rebuild itself from scratch, but the social cost of such a move would have been unacceptable to anyone who did not have a major nest egg tucked away (i.e., bankers and other millionaires)

305 Obdicut  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 6:08:31am

re: #301 ralphieboy

Yep. It was an obvious moment for reform. Letting them fail is an idiotic idea, but the one-time emergency could have been turned into reform of the system to cut down on the risk-taking and the short-term mendacity. Instead, we got pushback even against the idea of curtailing bonuses.

And new bubbles are building up right now. The practices haven't stopped at all. We may not even be out of this recession before the next speculative bubble explodes.

306 AK-47%  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 6:10:59am

re: #305 Obdicut

It shows the extent to which Wall Street still owns both major parties.

307 Wozza Matter?  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 6:15:02am

re: #303 RogueOne

I don't think we should have bailed them out at all. Their quick recovery didn't seem to help anyone but their own shareholders.

TARP particularly was as much to restore public confidence as it was for the benefit of tiding over severely troubled assets in financial institutions.

Runs on banks are ugly things, one of the UKs largest went under during the crisis when confidence collapsed - even though it's balance sheet didn't.

308 Obdicut  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 6:16:03am

re: #306 ralphieboy

The SEC and Obama are doing some kicking around the edges, some prosecutions of outright frauds, including the beginning of some of the reportage stuff surroudning the debt meltdown.

But the problem of legal remedies against incredibly rich corporations is its in their best interest to hire a thousand lawyers to fight you. Individuals within the corporations can be targeted, which is the tact they're taking, but it's very hard to spread that out to the corporation as a whole, because societally we've divested ownership from responsibility. It's one of the more farcical aspects of the current GOP mentality towards capitalism; there's no actual sense of responsibility adhering to owning stock. Nobody really earnestly says that a shareholder has a responsibility for keeping track of what the corporations they invest in are doing, let alone executing control. At most, shareholders are said to be able to 'vote with their dollars' and divest from investment into unethical companies; reality shows us that this doesn't happen. Many of the most unethical companies on earth are doing just fine with investors.

And why should shareholders, in our society, exert such responsibilty? They're encouraged not to. They're encouraged to think of owning a part of a company as just 'investment', not in the least bit similar to being a partner in a business. The only fiduciary responsibility they're supposed to have is to sell if the stock is underperforming.

It goes beyond a fault of either of the parties and into a cultural fault in the US in general, where we elevate the making of money above any question of how that money was made.

309 RogueOne  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 6:16:46am

I completely spaced a 930 appt. I'm going to be late, enjoy the rest of the day people!

310 Wozza Matter?  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 6:19:23am

re: #308 Obdicut

because societally we've divested ownership from responsibility. It's one of the more farcical aspects of the current GOP mentality towards capitalism; there's no actual sense of responsibility adhering to owning stock. Nobody really earnestly says that a shareholder has a responsibility for keeping track of what the corporations they invest in are doing, let alone executing control. At most, shareholders are said to be able to 'vote with their dollars' and divest from investment into unethical companies; reality shows us that this doesn't happen. Many of the most unethical companies on earth are doing just fine with investors.

And why should shareholders, in our society, exert such responsibilty? They're encouraged not to. They're encouraged to think of owning a part of a company as just 'investment', not in the least bit similar to being a partner in a business. The only fiduciary responsibility they're supposed to have is to sell if the stock is underperforming.

DING.

Shareolders are business owners, but are never expected or wanted to think as such.
Makes me really mad.

311 AK-47%  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 6:21:18am

re: #308 Obdicut


Don't foget, the "shareholders" are often investment funds, which even further weakens the link between owner and corporation.

312 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 6:24:38am

re: #13 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Okay. May I please hope for his hot shot?

He's a Tea Partier. He's a white guy.

I say? C'mon California.

Kill him a lot.

Boil him in oil? Please?

313 Obdicut  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 6:25:29am

re: #311 ralphieboy

Yes, though I'd note there's nothing in essence wrong with that, if we had a culture where the investment fund operators actually acted with a code of ethics other than profit, where they actually executed that ownership duty.

It's that at no point is anyone acting like their name being attatched to that company matters that's the problem. If the investment managers actually did care about that, it'd be fine to have the joe's at home not know the details but instead just know about their investment manager's ethics.

As it is, somehow the very idea that there should be ethics in investment gets laughed at, to the point where the story that the Koch's are doing business with Iran is barely making a ripple.

314 Obdicut  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 6:27:58am

re: #312 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

The body armor really gets me, because it indicates he wanted to be able to survive, or wanted to keep killing even while he was shot. So either a huge coward-- which is what it looks like, since suicide by cop is really easy to do-- or an abject monster.

I'm betting coward, though.

I do favor the idea of those being sentenced to life being allowed to kill themselves, if they want to. With appropriate checks and balances.

315 kirkspencer  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 6:33:46am

As I've noted before, the lack of responsibility is a feature --- it's the intent of incorporation, allowing investors to escape personal liability for acts of the company and its employees.

The major fix I'd recommend (won't happen, but it's a dream) is to nullify the margin note that says a corporation is a person. If the corporation cannot be held responsible, it cannot have the rights for which that responsibility pays.

316 bratwurst  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 6:37:26am

re: #315 kirkspencer

The major fix I'd recommend (won't happen, but it's a dream) is to nullify the margin note that says a corporation is a person.

Don't let Mitt Romney catch you talking like that!

317 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 6:37:31am

re: #308 Obdicut

there's no actual sense of responsibility adhering to owning stock. Nobody really earnestly says that a shareholder has a responsibility for keeping track of what the corporations they invest in are doing, let alone executing control.

It's kinda like the opposite of "I was just following orders", no?

318 AK-47%  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 6:38:55am

re: #315 kirkspencer

As I've noted before, the lack of responsibility is a feature --- it's the intent of incorporation, allowing investors to escape personal liability for acts of the company and its employees.

The major fix I'd recommend (won't happen, but it's a dream) is to nullify the margin note that says a corporation is a person. If the corporation cannot be held responsible, it cannot have the rights for which that responsibility pays.

Let's just retain the option of throwing corporations in prison to be sodomized.

/

319 iossarian  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 6:49:32am

re: #315 kirkspencer

As I've noted before, the lack of responsibility is a feature --- it's the intent of incorporation, allowing investors to escape personal liability for acts of the company and its employees.

The major fix I'd recommend (won't happen, but it's a dream) is to nullify the margin note that says a corporation is a person. If the corporation cannot be held responsible, it cannot have the rights for which that responsibility pays.

The most irritating thing about the "corporation personhood" thing is that it all arises from a somewhat lazy (in my view) piece of legislating from the bench. "Well, it seems fair that a college should be able to continue to exist even after its founders have passed away. How can we make this happen legally? I know, we'll say that corporations are sort of like people!"

BOOM CITIZENS UNITED/law of unintended consequences

If, instead, you had had from the start a separate legal category for corporations detailing what they can and can't do, we'd have none of this pseudo-philosophical mumbo-jumbo nonsense about "the rights of corporations".

320 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 6:49:34am

The company who created the german government trojan sold Austria, Switzerland and Netherlands the same or similar software: [Link: www.heise.de...]

321 Obdicut  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 6:53:58am

re: #320 000G

Wowzers. The Netherlands, even.

322 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 6:54:11am

re: #314 Obdicut

The body armor really gets me, because it indicates he wanted to be able to survive, or wanted to keep killing even while he was shot. So either a huge coward-- which is what it looks like, since suicide by cop is really easy to do-- or an abject monster.

I'm betting coward, though.

I do favor the idea of those being sentenced to life being allowed to kill themselves, if they want to. With appropriate checks and balances.

Not necessarily, he might have just wanted to wear his cool stuff, look really tough. I'm not sure he was in a state of mind to think much past that.

323 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 7:01:28am

re: #321 Obdicut

Wowzers. The Netherlands, even.

EU territory is not neccessarily benevolent.

324 kirkspencer  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 7:05:22am

re: #319 iossarian

The most irritating thing about the "corporation personhood" thing is that it all arises from a somewhat lazy (in my view) piece of legislating from the bench. "Well, it seems fair that a college should be able to continue to exist even after its founders have passed away. How can we make this happen legally? I know, we'll say that corporations are sort of like people!"

BOOM CITIZENS UNITED/law of unintended consequences

If, instead, you had had from the start a separate legal category for corporations detailing what they can and can't do, we'd have none of this pseudo-philosophical mumbo-jumbo nonsense about "the rights of corporations".

Older than that but definitely laziness. In fact, in some ways almost criminally negligent judicial behavior. Corporations are persons was a margin note by an unnamed (but suspected) clerk on a US Supreme Court decision. Not part of the decision, a margin note. And yet it became "precedence".

bah.

325 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 7:16:55am

Morning All!

I was thinking (I know, a dangerous thing) about the prison/mental health/social services thing in this country.

Does it seem that we are in a precarious situation here? It's as if we are beginning or have been for some time, of being in a situation in which we are using prisons as re-education camps?

*shivers*

It's raining here, how is it by you?

326 prairiefire  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 7:17:53am

My best friend starts hospice care at home today, if she is able to be discharged. I think hospice is a good choice and will give her husband some help. It is the beginning of an extended goodbye. I was thinking of sending some comfy pillows, or a fancy blanket. I am going to miss her so much.

327 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 7:20:39am

re: #191 000G

Perry lost the Tea Party bump, it went to Cain and he's also picking up the Palin contingent. Massive boost. Temporarily.

Is this bump a bit like in _Tremors_ where the ground raises under you temporarily right before the (Tea Party) graboid sucks you under and eats you?

328 efuseakay  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 7:23:07am

Definitely not political from what I can tell, but you know...

"Liberal plant!"

329 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 7:24:13am

re: #326 prairiefire

My best friend starts hospice care at home today, if she is able to be discharged. I think hospice is a good choice and will give her husband some help. It is the beginning of an extended goodbye. I was thinking of sending some comfy pillows, or a fancy blanket. I am going to miss her so much.

Hospice was wonderful when my Dad was sick. They knew exactly what to do and say to keep everybody, including him, as comfortable as possible.

330 Cannadian Club Akbar  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 7:27:23am

re: #329 ggt

Hospice was wonderful when my Dad was sick. They knew exactly what to do and say to keep everybody, including him, as comfortable as possible.

I was at the hospital when my dad was transferred to Hospice. I asked the doctor how long he had. Doctor said 3 weeks to 3 months. Was 3 days. But the people at Hospice were awesome.

331 luzbone  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 7:27:38am

"Suspect in Seal Beach Shooting: a Tea Party Supporter?"

If you play this game then you have to look at every cruel act and look at the perpetrator and see what political alignment they have. Do you think it is possible anyone that is involved with OWS has done something reprehensible? Perhaps a Democrat has murdered someone? Etc. etc.

His tea party affiliation should not come into this at all.

332 Killgore Trout  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 7:34:09am

re: #331 luzbone

I don't see it either but others seem to find this is indicative of the dangerous violent nature of Tea Partiers.

333 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 7:34:17am

re: #330 Cannadian Club Akbar

I was at the hospital when my dad was transferred to Hospice. I asked the doctor how long he had. Doctor said 3 weeks to 3 months. Was 3 days. But the people at Hospice were awesome.

It seems the laws are differnt in IL as to what regular medical doctors can do and Hospice do. My Dad was not able to get better meds at the intervals in which he needed them to keep him comfortable until he had been "admitted" into hospice.

It was merely a paperwork procedure, he did not change rooms or nurses or anything. It totally confused my mother. "When are the moving him to hospice?"

334 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 7:35:38am

re: #332 Killgore Trout

I don't see it either but others seem to find this is indicative of the dangerous violent nature of Tea Partiers.

It shows a natural bias that we all have toward one camp or another. It doesn't help that the Tea Partiers are verbal about the 2nd Amendment. The other side has just as many gun owners, they just don't holler about it.

335 Obdicut  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 7:37:02am

re: #332 Killgore Trout

It's most likely not significant. One can expound on violent people being drawn to violence-tolerating groups, but this guy's story is atypical. Most people don't have a crippling injury while watching their friend die.

It might turn out to be significant, but I doubt it.

336 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 7:40:24am

re: #335 Obdicut

It's most likely not significant. One can expound on violent people being drawn to violence-tolerating groups, but this guy's story is atypical. Most people don't have a crippling injury while watching their friend die.

It might turn out to be significant, but I doubt it.

If political affiliation had anything to do with the propensity for violence, we see party emblems on gang member tattoos.

I think the concern for the violence is misplaced.

337 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 7:42:50am

dun dun dun dun

The Alex Jones Channel: Salon Massacre: Media to Link Crazy Man to Tea Party!

More dirty tricks from the globalist!
crypter27 6 thumbs up

globalist have taken over the tea party anyway
rojm 5 thumbs up

338 AK-47%  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 7:42:55am

re: #191 000G

Perry lost the Tea Party bump, it went to Cain and he's also picking up the Palin contingent. Massive boost. Temporarily.

Repeat from earlier thread: I misunderestimated Perry's appeal and potential, but at least I was right about the message: Low taxes + lax regulations = jobs, jobs, jobs.

Cain has now become the Official Bearer of The Message and it seems to have a mesmerizing effect on the GOP base.

339 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 7:42:55am

Have a wonderful day all!

340 Killgore Trout  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 7:43:43am

Commie Maoist Protester At Occupy Philly

A very sad and confused people.

341 Beltboy  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 7:44:15am

This deranged man seems to be nothing more than a "bumper sticker" supporter of the Tea Party yet this blog has it as part and parcel of his crime. Meanwhile, when a mass murdering thug with an obvious Middle Eastern name does the same thing this same blog goes painstakingly out of its' way to say the words "Islam" or "Muslim".
Just an observation.

342 AK-47%  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 7:44:35am

re: #337 000G

dun dun dun dun

The Alex Jones Channel: Salon Massacre: Media to Link Crazy Man to Tea Party!

[Video]

the man linked himself, but face it: it is an argument along the lines of "All men are moral. All deer are mortal. Therefore all men are deer".

Or: His TP association says a bit a bout the man but very little about the TP.

343 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 7:45:14am
344 Beltboy  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 7:45:20am

re: #341 Beltboy

That should read "not to say"

345 bratwurst  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 7:45:31am

re: #341 Beltboy

This deranged man seems to be nothing more than a "bumper sticker" supporter of the Tea Party yet this blog has it as part and parcel of his crime. Meanwhile, when a mass murdering thug with an obvious Middle Eastern name does the same thing this same blog goes painstakingly out of its' way to say the words "Islam" or "Muslim".
Just an observation.

Yet here you are.

346 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 7:46:22am

re: #342 ralphieboy

lol @ moral/mortal screwup.

Btw, no, Gus did not attempt a syllogism of that sort.

347 blueraven  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 7:46:42am

re: #332 Killgore Trout

I don't see it either but others seem to find this is indicative of the dangerous violent nature of Tea Partiers.

So let me get this straight. If a person with ties to, and a license plate frame with OWS on it committed a mass murder, you wouldn't be posting that info here?

348 Gus  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 7:47:44am

re: #347 blueraven

So let me get this straight. If a person with ties to, and a license plate frame with OWS on it committed a mass murder, you wouldn't be posting that info here?

Let me think about that for a minute second.

349 Gus  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 7:49:26am

re: #335 Obdicut

It's most likely not significant. One can expound on violent people being drawn to violence-tolerating groups, but this guy's story is atypical. Most people don't have a crippling injury while watching their friend die.

It might turn out to be significant, but I doubt it.

Does political affiliation or ideology affect behavior or predict behavior or social interaction? If I were a pro-life Republican with strong feelings against abortion what would my response be to my wife is she came to me demanding that I allow her to have an abortion? What if I were a far-right conservative and found out that my son was gay? Etc.

350 Obdicut  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 7:49:35am

re: #341 Beltboy

Can you give an example of a time this blog has gone out of its way to avoid saying "Muslim"?

351 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 7:50:58am

Alex Jones no more like OWS since his guys get repeatedly told off:

Awwwww, sad Alex!

352 Obdicut  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 7:54:06am

re: #349 Gus 802

I'm not sure what those examples have to do with this case. Sure, both of those are true. Teenagers get the shit beaten out of them for being gay by their own parents.

But in this case this dude has all this trauma, which would seem enough on its own to snap a dude's sanity. If he had hung out with Quakers and Zen Buddhists, could they maybe have helped him avoid a violent manifestation of the crazy? Maybe.

353 AK-47%  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 7:54:30am

We come back to a central image of the Tea party: armed insurrection against a tyrannical government.

They have enough historical cluelessness to overlook the fact that our government is not tyrannical, it was legally and fairly elected. It allows changes and corrections every two to four years though free elections.

That is the one aspect of the "we came unarmed/Second Amehndment remedies" memes that are part and parcel of the TP message, and which truly disturb me.

354 Varek Raith  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 7:55:11am

re: #341 Beltboy

Prove it.

355 Gus  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 7:56:00am

re: #341 Beltboy

This deranged man seems to be nothing more than a "bumper sticker" supporter of the Tea Party yet this blog has it as part and parcel of his crime. Meanwhile, when a mass murdering thug with an obvious Middle Eastern name does the same thing this same blog goes painstakingly out of its' way to say the words "Islam" or "Muslim".
Just an observation.

And meanwhile the right wing blogs go out of their way almost wishing and hoping that every crime like this was committed by a Muslim. And what about the frequent meme by individuals like Pamela Geller focus on Muslims and honor killings making it seem like the sole perpetrators of domestic violence in the USA are committed by Muslims? According to the right-wingers then it's perfectly fine to blame the out groups and are shocked when even a slightest suggestion is made about their in group.

Incidentally. The only conclusion I came to in my article was that he might be suffering from PTSD. I only made a suggestion regarding his Tea Party identity and the read can make of it what they wish. Had he been a Muslim, Pamela Geller would be all over this regarding Honor killings and the like.

356 Obdicut  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 7:58:50am

re: #353 ralphieboy

Yeah, I mean, to me the light this throws on the Tea Party is how stupid their 'armed citizenry' attitude is. Our most frequent examples of armed citizenry in action is going ape and shooting people, because there are no actual threats an armed citizenry is needed for. The "I came unarmed this time" is an assertion of a right to militarily rebel or resist the government. I believe in the right of people to defend themselves but those people are en entirely different breed than the militia wannabees who fantasize about laying down vigilante law because they're armed in public.

I have a lot of respect for responsible gun owners, but the irresponsible ones who fetishize weapons creep me the fuck out.

357 iossarian  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 7:59:04am

re: #355 Gus 802

Not to mention the fact that domestic violence in general is far from being a cause that right-wingers traditionally care much about, since addressing it challenges the power structures they generally support.

"Muslim" honor killings: badbadbad!

"Christian" women getting killed by their boyfriends: something that only "radical feminists" are concerned about.

358 Reverend Mother Ramallo  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 7:59:46am

re: #341 Beltboy

Well if his bumper sticker said "Hamas, Join the Revolution !", you may have had a point...

359 AK-47%  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 7:59:54am

re: #355 Gus 802

Their arguments are that Christianity allows for violence if it is unavoidable, but Islam calls for it wherever necessary.

I see both as matters of interpretation.

On one hand, "Turn the other cheek" is pretty damn clear to me, and spoken by Jesus himself.

As for Islam, one has to step back a bit farther and try to see the words of The Prophet as being spoken by a person of his times to people of his times, back when it seen as a matter of life or death to unite the Arab peoples in a common religion with a monotheistic God.

360 AK-47%  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 8:02:24am

re: #357 iossarian

A famous Doonesbury strip showed Uncle Duke testifying on behalf of the NRA before the Senate. One of the Senators reminds him that most gun deaths in the US are the result of domestic violence.

To which Duke replies, "That's just my point, Senator: if your wife were shooting at you, wouldn't you want to be in a position to retun fire?"

361 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 8:06:26am

For all concerned: if nothing happens again (like it did the last time), tomorrow, during the anniversary of the escape from Sobibor, we will finally release our 500+ page critique of denial of Aktion Reinhardt camps. I'll put up a page here.

362 Obdicut  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 8:07:57am

re: #361 Sergey Romanov

Your very, very graphic critique.

363 Gus  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 8:09:23am

I suggest that people re-read Freetoken's comment here:

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

I would add that this is more than just a domestic violence incident. A true domestic violence incident would only involve the spouse and/or children. This is a mass shooting perpetrated by a heavily armed individual who also wore body armor (allegedly) indicating that he was prepared or preparing for a shoot out with the police. Why would he have gone into a beauty salon of all places wearing body armor simply for the purpose of killing his wife?

Then there is the gun-control aspect of this incident. One that will be either ignored or put on the back burner once again in fear of the 2nd Amendment lobbyists not limited to the NRA. It is very likely that this individual murdered, slaughtered, 8 people using a LEGAL weapon. This may not have been a political act but there are many political ramifications regarding this event.

364 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 8:10:47am

re: #363 Gus 802

Well-stated.

365 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 8:11:08am

re: #351 000G

Alex Jones no more like OWS since his guys get repeatedly told off:

[Video]Awww, sad Alex!

I recommend watching those vids if you are not a Ron Paul fan and/or if you hate the end-the-Fed stuff popping up @ OWS. Paulbots are seething with rage that they are rejected from OWS.

366 Gus  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 8:11:50am

re: #364 Sergey Romanov

Well-stated.

Thanks.

367 Killgore Trout  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 8:12:46am

Not wining hearts and minds here in Portland.....
Occupy Portland (Oregon) shoots itself in the foot. IMHO.
Occupy Portland has decided to block one of the main arteries in the downtown area. The City has been working with the protesters trying to appeal to their sense of decency to take into consideration the safety and well being of their fellow citizens. The protesters issued this press release....

It has been claimed that our occupation of Main Street is slowing down emergency vehicles and risking people’s lives. We acknowledge this concern however, the real risk to people’s lives is the fact that 40 million Americans are without healthcare, 560,000 of whom are Oregonians.

They did eventually have a general assembly to solve the situation.....
After those 4 hours, when we finally got around to voting, the crowd had shrunk to half of it's size or less. In the end what we had was a consensus that emergency vehicles and bikes would be let through. Basically, we voted not to barricade ambulances. that took 4 hours.

I know you guys don't believe me but this movement has no solutions and they aren't capable of coming up with any.

368 Daniel Ballard  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 8:14:09am

re: #356 Obdicut
It has been reported this guy was under a restraining or protective order.
California code
6389. (a) A person subject to a protective order, as defined in Section 6218, shall not own, possess, purchase, or receive a firearm while that protective order is in effect. Every person who owns, possesses, purchases or receives, or attempts to purchase or receive a firearm while the protective order is in effect is punishable pursuant to subdivision (g) of Section 12021 of the Penal Code.

Responsible gun owners will dispossess themselves until it's over, maybe just by handing them to their attorney.

369 Killgore Trout  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 8:14:42am

re: #347 blueraven

So let me get this straight. If a person with ties to, and a license plate frame with OWS on it committed a mass murder, you wouldn't be posting that info here?

Probably not unless there was a political motive or it was somehow connected to the protests. if the Guy was Muslim at least you could claim it was an honor killing.

370 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 8:15:28am

re: #369 Killgore Trout

if the Guy was Muslim at least you could claim it was an honor killing.

*facepalm*

371 Reverend Mother Ramallo  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 8:16:02am
372 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 8:16:12am

Kossack reaction to the OP news:

[Link: www.dailykos.com...]

373 Gus  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 8:16:54am

re: #369 Killgore Trout

Probably not unless there was a political motive or it was somehow connected to the protests. if the Guy was Muslim at least you could claim it was an honor killing.

Seriously? So we white people done have our own set of mores, values and standards that might affect our behavior?

374 prairiefire  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 8:18:08am

That killer has a serious case of the man boobs.

375 Killgore Trout  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 8:18:10am

re: #372 Sergey Romanov

Yeah, this seems to be a common mode of thinking....

Were the tables turned, righties wouldn't hesitate to try diminish the left if, for example, someone walked out of an OWS protest and gunned down several people.

"They would do it to us so we should do it to them"
Meh.

376 Charles Johnson  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 8:20:08am

re: #341 Beltboy

This deranged man seems to be nothing more than a "bumper sticker" supporter of the Tea Party yet this blog has it as part and parcel of his crime. Meanwhile, when a mass murdering thug with an obvious Middle Eastern name does the same thing this same blog goes painstakingly out of its' way to say the words "Islam" or "Muslim".
Just an observation.

Bullshit. Again.

377 Gus  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 8:24:54am

Let's look aside at the Tea Party association for a moment. Now, let's take a look at the perpetrators equipment shown here:

[Link: www.presstelegram.com...]

There you can see his body armor (bullet proof vests, etc.) and ammo clips.

Domestic violence? What, was his wife armed like Rambo?

378 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 8:29:54am

re: #365 000G

Apparently, the rejection of Ron Paul supporters at Occupy Events started a couple of days ago:

'Occupy' Agitators Attempt to Ban First Amendment: Alex Jones Report (Oct 11, 3 parts)

379 wrenchwench  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 8:30:27am

re: #315 kirkspencer

As I've noted before, the lack of responsibility is a feature --- it's the intent of incorporation, allowing investors to escape personal liability for acts of the company and its employees.

The major fix I'd recommend (won't happen, but it's a dream) is to nullify the margin note that says a corporation is a person. If the corporation cannot be held responsible, it cannot have the rights for which that responsibility pays.

Bingo bingo bingo

380 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 8:30:36am

re: #378 000G

'Occupy' Agitators Attempt to Ban First Amendment

LOL?

381 Obdicut  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 8:30:43am

re: #378 000G

That gives me hope. I'm going to try to make it back down there.

Have actual work holding me up now.

382 Gus  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 8:30:59am

Image: x999.jpg

Police collect evidence, including a bulletproof vest, retrieved from the vehicle believed to belong to the suspect, Scott Evans Dekraai, who has been arrested in the shootings at the Salon Meritage that left eight people dead and one critically wounded in Seal Beach, Caif. , Wednesday, Oct. 12, 2011.

383 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 8:31:57am

re: #380 Sergey Romanov

LOL?

Paulbots will burn you at the stake and chant "DEFEND THE CONSTITUTION! HAIL LUAP NOR!" if you give them any pushback.

384 [deleted]  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 8:33:02am
385 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 8:34:05am

re: #383 000G

Paulbots will burn you at the stake and chant "DEFEND THE CONSTITUTION! HAIL LUAP NOR!" if you give them any pushback.

Can you say in a couple of words what exactly does Jones describe by banning 1st amdt? People asking other people to speak elsewhere or not giving them megaphone?

386 wee fury  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 8:40:43am

Wow. Gus.
Downdinged your story.
For 'conspiracy theory' linking the tea party movement as the cause of random (and spousal) murders.
The alleged murderer is evil.
End of story.

387 Killgore Trout  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 8:41:20am

Good news here in Portland.

Police arrest Occupy Portland demonstrators

Dozens of officers arrived at about 6 a.m. and arrested those who refused to move, said Lt. Robert King. "It's important to get it open and end the disruption," he said.

The blockade had caused traffic bottlenecks.

"We all feel good we're able to get the city moving again," King said. "We've got thousands of cars, buses, bikes and pedestrians who use this every day to go to work or move through the downtown core."

388 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 8:41:22am

re: #385 Sergey Romanov

Can you say in a couple of words what exactly does Jones describe by banning 1st amdt? People asking other people to speak elsewhere or not giving them megaphone?

In this video, ff to 4:22:

And then there's this:

Kokesh talking about that with Alex Jones, accusing OWS to be "leftist, statist":

There supposedly have been other events of this type, but Alex has a hard time talking about it without agitprop. It basically sounds like his peeps and other Paulbots got told to stop pushing their propaganda.

389 wrenchwench  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 8:42:09am

re: #386 wee fury

Wow. Gus.
Downdinged your story.
For 'conspiracy theory' linking the tea party movement as the cause of random (and spousal) murders.
The alleged murderer is evil.
End of story.

Where did Gus say it was the cause?

390 Gus  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 8:42:48am

re: #386 wee fury

Wow. Gus.
Downdinged your story.
For 'conspiracy theory' linking the tea party movement as the cause of random (and spousal) murders.
The alleged murderer is evil.
End of story.

I'm heart broken.

//

391 iossarian  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 8:43:38am

re: #387 Killgore Trout

Good news here in Portland.

Police arrest Occupy Portland demonstrators

That'll get the Dow Jones ticking upwards again!

392 wee fury  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 8:43:47am

re: #389 wrenchwench

Implied. I mistyped. Sorry.

393 Varek Raith  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 8:44:27am

re: #392 wee fury

Sure.
Or you just wanted to feel victimized.
;)

394 wrenchwench  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 8:44:30am

re: #388 000G

I'd like to see the part where OWSers are giving the pushback. Without having to watch Alex Jones or Adam Kokesh. Maybe it's not documented. Good to hear of evidence of it, anyway.

395 Gus  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 8:45:00am

re: #391 iossarian

That'll get the Dow Jones ticking upwards again!

Happy days are here again!

The war is over!

//

396 iossarian  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 8:45:31am

re: #395 Gus 802

Happy days are here again!

The war is over!

//

Go back to your villages and spend, spend, spend!

397 wrenchwench  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 8:46:15am

re: #392 wee fury

Implied. I mistyped. Sorry.

Or you inferred it.

Besides, "He's evil. End of story." is damned simplistic. Especially in a case likely precipitated by a domestic situation.

398 Gus  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 8:46:23am

re: #396 iossarian

Go back to your villages and spend, spend, spend!

Americans should just go shopping.

399 Killgore Trout  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 8:46:55am

re: #391 iossarian

That'll get the Dow Jones ticking upwards again!

No, but it will get peoples to their jobs, small businesses will be open, emergency vehicles can get people to the hospital, etc. It's a good thing that these people aren't allowed to disrupt the city any more than necessary.

400 Gus  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 8:47:38am

re: #397 wrenchwench

Or you inferred it.

Besides, "He's evil. End of story." is damned simplistic. Especially in a case likely precipitated by a domestic situation.

And misogyny. A culture of death. Weak restraining orders. Lax gun control measures. And misogyny.

401 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 8:47:52am

re: #386 wee fury

Wow. Gus.
Downdinged your story.
For 'conspiracy theory' linking the tea party movement as the cause of random (and spousal) murders.
The alleged murderer is evil.
End of story.

Factual linking of the two is there. Causal linking? Not.

402 iossarian  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 8:48:15am

re: #398 Gus 802

Americans should just go shopping.

Lack of shopping is the number one reason for American decline.

Here, I'll get the ball rolling, I've got a couple of choice items right here on my desk. Who wants to buy a slightly used NPR coffee mug? I'll start the bidding at $5.

Come on people, let's get this economy MOVING again!

403 wrenchwench  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 8:48:41am

re: #400 Gus 802

And misogyny. A culture of death. Weak restraining orders. Lax gun control measures. And misogyny.

And maybe PTSD or other undiagnosed mental illness.

404 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 8:49:15am

Alex Jones squealing is always a good sign.

405 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 8:49:35am

re: #399 Killgore Trout

No, but it will get peoples to their jobs, small businesses will be open, emergency vehicles can get people to the hospital, etc. It's a good thing that these people aren't allowed to disrupt the city any more than necessary.

What amount of disruption is neccessary, Killgore?

406 Gus  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 8:50:11am

re: #403 wrenchwench

And maybe PTSD or other undiagnosed mental illness.

Right. Which I mentioned originally. The "Tea Party" affiliation is, to be honest, just me poking them in the eye so to speak.

407 iossarian  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 8:50:32am

re: #399 Killgore Trout

No, but it will get peoples to their jobs, small businesses will be open, emergency vehicles can get people to the hospital, etc. It's a good thing that these people aren't allowed to disrupt the city any more than necessary.

I bet that the emergency services are far more affected by Republican opposition to anything and everything that might improve healthcare than they are by a few protestors in Portland.

In fact, I bet that even right-wing opposition to infrastructure spending alone, and its consequent effect on transportation efficiency, is more of an issue for the emergency services than the protests are.

408 Gus  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 8:50:42am

BRB Gotta flush this internet cache. Yeesh.

409 Idle Drifter  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 8:51:53am

re: #404 Sergey Romanov

Alex Jones squealing is always a good sign.

Sounds like rusty nails on a chalkboard.

410 Varek Raith  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 8:52:52am
411 wrenchwench  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 8:52:54am

re: #254 JEA62

So Perry misspoke and said '16th" instead of "18th". The nut was a TP supporter.

Charles, you're better than this gotcha nonsense. This is what I expect from FireDogLake and Truthdig, not here.

And wtf is up with you?

3 JEA62 Sun, Sep 25, 2011 10:52:41am

I don't understand how anyone can come out on the side of immigrants in The Last Refuge for Whites in America (TM).

Lose a sarc tag? Or a heart?

412 wrenchwench  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 8:56:05am

re: #404 Sergey Romanov

Alex Jones squealing is always a good sign.

I have a personal grudge against Kokesh, since he moved to a New Mexico district to run for the state legislature. Didn't even get the Repub nomination, though, after the Republicans recruited someone only half as bad to run against him. (it's a secure Democrat seat anyway.)

413 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 8:57:14am
414 Talking Point Detective  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 8:58:21am

This is funny:

Occupy Wall Street protesters are undergoing collectivist zombie training in Atlanta, where a large group was caught on film engaging in a weird sort of “one voice” hypnotic chanting ritual that characterizes the key principles of both Communism and Socialism. Watch the video at:
[Link: naturalnews.tv...]

Having an extensive background in studying linguistics and human psychology, I recognize mass hypnosis when I see it. The mind-numbing call-and-return vocalizations captured in this video reflect the same kind of mind control techniques used in cults, sporting events and even some church revival events. The whole point of this experience is the individual mind and train everyone to think, and say, and do exactly what they are told to do by a “leaderless leader” who is really a mind control manipulator.

Apparently, one reason for the "human mic" technique, where the group repeats what the speakers say phrase by phrase, is that the meetings are taking place in some areas where the use of voice amplification are prohibited.

The technique has obvious benefits and detriments - and to some it just seems weird, but the idea that it is "mass hypnosis," - and is characterized by "key principles of both Communism and Socialism" is flat out laughable.

415 Gus  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 8:59:08am

re: #411 wrenchwench

And wtf is up with you?

Lose a sarc tag? Or a heart?

Interesting, that comment you linked to is something I would expect at Vdare. Not here. ;)

416 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 9:00:24am

re: #414 Talking Point Detective

Urgh, "natural news"

[Link: rationalwiki.org...]
[Link: scienceblogs.com...]

417 Gus  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 9:00:39am

Hey. When Andrew Breitbart sees this page he's going to have another mental aneurism and I'll get to make new friends that I won't see on the internet.

//

418 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 9:01:09am

re: #414 Talking Point Detective

This is funny:


Apparently, one reason for the "human mic" technique, where the group repeats what the speakers say phrase by phrase, is that the meetings are taking place in some areas where the use of voice amplification are prohibited.

The technique has obvious benefits and detriments - and to some it just seems weird, but the idea that it is "mass hypnosis," - and is characterized by "key principles of both Communism and Socialism" is flat out laughable.

Yea, they should just get with the program and use the high-tech (well, gene tech) method - Hypnotoad!
/

419 lawhawk  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 9:01:29am

re: #382 Gus 802

No, it doesn't seem like the kinds of weapons that one would use if you're dealing with a domestic dispute unless your spouse is the Incredible Hulk or Rambo as you say. Also, I haven't seen any explanation of why this person decided to murder 8 people who are victims because they worked at the same location that the spouse worked at.

At the same there's there's some serious cognitive dissonance where a guy who claims to be part of the TP and is standing up for the constitution and individual rights and liberties goes and murders eight people - depriving them of their life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness (or existence for that matter).

I have seen that that the couple was in the midst of a bitter divorce, but murdering 8 people will somehow improve the custody chances for the guy? That's about as warped logic as one could ever expect to see.

No, what I see is a guy who managed to get heavily armed and murdered a bunch of people and now excuses are coming out for his behavior.

Did the TP angle play a role? I'm sure a psychological review of the guy may tease out that aspect when they check the guy's mental capacity to stand trial/insanity defense (always a possibility in these kinds of cases).

But when someone says TP and its role - that could be anything from adulation of a gun-toting culture to giving people who may not be mentally balanced the idea that they can or should use firearms to fulfill whatever fantasy-world solution they've concocted to solve their problems. TP may have planted the seed in an Inception-type role, but ultimately this guy is responsible for his actions. If evidence surfaces that this guy was calling for mass murder as a way to bring about revolution/upheaval to benefit himself and others, then that's a different story and puts these TP links in a different light.

420 Talking Point Detective  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 9:01:34am

re: #387 Killgore Trout

Good news here in Portland.

Police arrest Occupy Portland demonstrators

So you're "concerned" that disruptive elements of the OWS will detract from people receiving good health care?

421 Gus  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 9:02:44am

re: #419 lawhawk

Sounds good to me.

422 Cannadian Club Akbar  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 9:04:54am

Hedge fund tycoon gets 11 years.
[Link: www.reuters.com...]

423 Varek Raith  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 9:05:38am

BBL

424 Killgore Trout  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 9:07:28am

re: #420 Talking Point Detective

So you're "concerned" that disruptive elements of the OWS will detract from people receiving good health care?

There's a good reason why it's illegal for citizens to take it upon themselves to blockade public roads.

425 wrenchwench  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 9:11:44am

re: #415 Gus 802

Interesting, that comment you linked to is something I would expect at Vdare. Not here. ;)

He has another weird one:

#2 JEA62 :: Sun, Oct 9, 2011 at 7:10:16 am
It is not bigotry to say everyone who believes in any other religion is in a cult and going to Hell. It's "Truth." Try to learn the difference.

... but with 'truth' in scare quotes, I couldn't interpret it. Has some reasonable comments too.

426 Talking Point Detective  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 9:12:56am

re: #413 000G

Image: OWSversusTeaParty.jpg

[Link: howconservativesdrovemeaway.blogspot.com...]

I'd have to disagree with that chart - I have seen precious little evidence that Tea Partiers are concerned about the influence of lobbying - or are particularly concerned about the influence of large corporations. That is the aspect of Tea Party ideology, and indeed libertarianism, that exposes its hypocritical foundation.

427 Gus  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 9:13:07am

re: #425 wrenchwench

He has another weird one:

... but with 'truth' in scare quotes, I couldn't interpret it. Has some reasonable comments too.

I'll have to check it all later. ;) Probably just a failed attempt at sarcasm? Who knows.

428 Shiplord Kirel  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 9:14:31am

New in pages: Ron Paul has agreed to meet with French neo-fascist leader Marine Le Pen during Le Pen's visit to the US next month. All the GOP candidates were invited but Paul is the only one to accept, so far.

429 Cannadian Club Akbar  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 9:14:55am

When is a rock not a rock?
[Link: www.nbcbayarea.com...]

430 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 9:15:23am

re: #426 Talking Point Detective

I'd have to disagree with that chart - I have seen precious little evidence that Tea Partiers are concerned about the influence of lobbying - or are particularly concerned about the influence of large corporations. That is the aspect of Tea Party ideology, and indeed libertarianism, that exposes its hypocritical foundation.

Besides, if you remove/castrate the government then there is nothing there worth trying to lobby...
///

431 Gus  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 9:18:22am

I'm starting to look at Firefox as some form of computer virus.

//

432 Talking Point Detective  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 9:19:04am

re: #424 Killgore Trout

There's a good reason why it's illegal for citizens to take it upon themselves to blockade public roads.

Sure. But roads are blocked all the time for specific interests. For example, the film industry can pay for police to block off entire sections of a city so they can produce films for a profit. People can get permits to block off streets to hold a bock party.

You're "concern trolling" OWS. I get the parallels and double-standard questions you're asking about how OWS is being treated Vis-à-vis the Tea Party - but your reaction to the Occupy Atlanta video clip shows that you're also looking for gratuitous "moonbat" bashing.

If access to healthcare is the primary concern, there are far more important areas of focus than OWS blocking off some street traffic.

433 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 9:19:31am

re: #426 Talking Point Detective

Well, there's the rallying against the GE-MSNBC Fed money connection and against the companies who got bailed out and the companies who get waivers from "Obamacare" – basically any corporation connected to "leftist" views or the Obama administration –, but in general you are correct.

434 Gus  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 9:24:03am

Court: No guns for people guilty of domestic violence
2/24/2009

The Supreme Court on Tuesday reinstated a federal ban on gun possession for people previously convicted of certain domestic violence misdemeanors.

The 7-2 vote was authored by Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg, who read a portion of the ruling from the bench in a strong, steady voice.

It was her second day on the bench after undergoing pancreatic cancer surgery February 5.

The opinion was a defeat for gun rights supporters, who had challenged groups fighting domestic violence over which ex-felons should be allowed to buy and keep firearms.

435 Killgore Trout  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 9:24:54am

re: #432 Talking Point Detective

People can get permits to block off streets to hold a bock party.

That's right people get permits. It's not an advanced concept. Private citizens Can't just throw up barricades and prevent everyone else from using public roads. It's illegal.

436 Talking Point Detective  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 9:25:23am

re: #433 000G

Well, there's the rallying against the GE-MSNBC Fed money connection and against the companies who got bailed out and the companies who get waivers from "Obamacare" – basically any corporation connected to "leftist" views or the Obama administration –, but in general you are correct.

Yeah - they're against bailouts, but that lies in direct contradiction to their failure to object to corporate influence via bribery lobyying.

437 Gus  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 9:25:39am

re: #434 Gus 802

Court: No guns for people guilty of domestic violence
2/24/2009

A little more:

The case involves Randy Edward Hayes, who pleaded guilty in a West Virginia court in 1993 to a misdemeanor battery charge for slapping his then-wife Mary Ann with his hand during an argument. The conviction led to a year of probation.

More than 10 years later, police responded to a 911 call of a domestic assault occurring at the home Hayes shared with his girlfriend. Deputies responded and, in a search of the house, found an unloaded Winchester rifle under Hayes' bed.

Hayes was charged with obstruction for lying about whether a gun was in the home, and with domestic battery, another misdemeanor. The battery charge was eventually dropped, but the federal firearms violation stuck.

His lawyers claim he could not be convicted in federal court of the weapons violations because the original state conviction did not include a domestic relationship element.

Only 17 states had misdemeanor domestic violence provisions when Congress passed the Federal Gun Control Act in 1996. West Virginia, like many states before and since, often prosecuted such cases as simple assault or battery. Crimes classified as felonies automatically trigger the gun possession ban. A federal appeals court ruled for Hayes.

438 makeitstop  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 9:27:43am

re: #414 Talking Point Detective

Apparently, one reason for the "human mic" technique, where the group repeats what the speakers say phrase by phrase, is that the meetings are taking place in some areas where the use of voice amplification are prohibited.

Bloomberg dropped by OWS yesterday and was asked if the protestors could get a permit for amplification to be used on the site. Bloomberg said no.

'Human mic' is about all they've got.

439 Gus  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 9:27:48am

Meanwhile:

Medical marijuana patients face 5-to-10 years in prison for owning a gun, says ATF

The Federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives sent out a memo last week clarifying their stance that a sportsman with a shotgun and a medical marijuana card is no different than a cocaine dealer with a silenced TEC-9.

The letter, sent to federal firearm licensees and gun shops in medical marijuana states on September 21, makes it clear that federal law prohibits someone who is an "unlawful user of or addicted to any controlled substance" to purchase or own a gun. And since state medical marijuana laws mean nothing to the federal government, any state-legal medical marijuana patient who owns a firearm is breaking federal law.

It is also illegal to sell a firearm to someone who is a "user" of illicit drugs, and things like firearm background checks and concealed handgun permits all have a check box on their forms asking if you use drugs. If a medical marijuana patient checks yes, then they aren't able to purchase or carry a gun. If they answer no, then they are lying in the eyes of the feds and could face prosecution.

Never mind that whole Second Amendment thing: Violating this law carries mandatory minimum sentences of five-to-ten years depending on the circumstances and mood of the judge and prosecuting attorneys.

Continues.

SNAFU?

440 Talking Point Detective  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 9:28:21am

re: #435 Killgore Trout

That's right people get permits. It's not an advanced concept. Private citizens Can't just throw up barricades and prevent everyone else from using public roads. It's illegal.

Right. But would the OWS be able to get permits?

I'm not advocating anarchy - it should be illegal, and I have no problem with people being arrested for acts of civil disobedience. But if the concern is access to healthcare, then the massive efforts on the part of the Republican Party to actually, you know, block access to healthcare is a bit more relevant than the OWS blocking off some streets in the process of civil disobedience.

441 Charles Johnson  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 9:29:49am

By the way, I'll just point out that yesterday I commented about the incredible amount of violent threats being posted at right wing sites in response to OWS. Praising the Kent State killings, bragging about their guns and weapons collections, etc.

And now here's a guy with an extensive collection of weapons including body armor, and he's a Tea Party supporter -- and he snaps and kills a lot of people.

There's no evidence (yet) that his Tea Party ideology had anything to do with the killings, but these things do not happen in a vacuum. Every single Tea Party website is just full of calls for violence and revolution, and chest beating about all the guns they have.

Yes, I do believe that all this radical incitement has an effect on unstable personalities.

442 Lidane  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 9:33:34am

Morning, Lizards! South Park continue to be a bunch of funny bastards:

[Link: www.southparkstudios.com...]

443 iossarian  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 9:34:38am

re: #440 Talking Point Detective

The important thing is to remain "moderate" and "centrist".

Sticking up for a law enforcement/justice system that takes two years to convict an obviously-guilty inside trader (and lets most of his accomplices off the hook) but takes two hours to throw someone who takes $3.50 worth of bottled water from a looted store in jail is a good way to retain those credentials.

444 Talking Point Detective  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 9:34:40am

re: #438 makeitstop

Bloomberg dropped by OWS yesterday and was asked if the protestors could get a permit for amplification to be used on the site. Bloomberg said no.

'Human mic' is about all they've got.

There are other reasons for using the process. It probably helps people to be more deliberate about what they're saying. It probably helps the crowd to be more thoughtful about considering the opinions of those that they're inclined to disagree with. Of course, it does seem inefficient, and it strikes some as being "moonbattish."

445 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 9:37:19am

re: #444 Talking Point Detective

There are other reasons for using the process. It probably helps people to be more deliberate about what they're saying. It probably helps the crowd to be more thoughtful about considering the opinions of those that they're inclined to disagree with. Of course, it does seem inefficient, and it strikes some as being "moonbattish."

Obama should hold a press conference (or maybe address Congress >:D ) without amplification and espousing that method to communicate to the farther reaches of the audience. THAT would make heads explode all over.

Not to mention someone should tape the result that comes out the far end and see what the "Post Office" effect is to the speech, questions, and/or answers.

446 Gus  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 9:37:19am

re: #442 Lidane

Morning, Lizards! South Park continue to be a bunch of funny bastards:

[Link: www.southparkstudios.com...]

Good stuff.

447 Daniel Ballard  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 9:37:54am

re: #439 Gus 802

Angry men with restraining orders? Low priority.

Medical marij users? High priority.

Go figure.

448 Lidane  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 9:38:35am

re: #446 Gus 802

Good stuff.

The "Work Mexican Work" song had me in stitches. The whole episode is hilarious.

449 Talking Point Detective  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 9:38:53am

re: #443 iossarian

The important thing is to remain "moderate" and "centrist".

Sticking up for a law enforcement/justice system that takes two years to convict an obviously-guilty inside trader (and lets most of his accomplices off the hook) but takes two hours to throw someone who takes $3.50 worth of bottled water from a looted store in jail is a good way to retain those credentials.

The discrepancies in what we identify as "criminal" behavior is very interesting. Corporate crime obviously victimizes far more people than someone buying drugs on a street corner. A mine owner with a track record of skirting safety laws in a mine that collapses obviously causes more hardship than someone shoplifting a few videotapes (who, because of three-strike laws might wind up in jail for years as a result). Blocking healthcare reform denies access to healthcare for far more people than blocking off a street.

450 Gus  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 9:39:42am

re: #447 Rightwingconspirator

Angry men with restraining orders? Low priority.

Medical marij users? High priority.

Go figure.

Exactly. I heard about this a couple of weeks ago. It's absurd if you think about alcohol consumption as well.

451 Gus  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 9:40:28am

re: #448 Lidane

The "Work Mexican Work" song had me in stitches. The whole episode is hilarious.

And it centers around Butters who is awesome.

452 Talking Point Detective  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 9:40:40am

re: #445 oaktree

Obama should hold a press conference (or maybe address Congress >:D ) without amplification and espousing that method to communicate to the farther reaches of the audience. THAT would make heads explode all over.

Not to mention someone should tape the result that comes out the far end and see what the "Post Office" effect is to the speech, questions, and/or answers.

It would be funny to see what would happen. Imagine, also, what would happen if Congress made decisions on the basis of consensus. We might actually get some intelligent policies out of that.

453 Gus  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 9:40:46am

A power blower!

454 Lidane  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 9:42:11am

re: #451 Gus 802

And it centers around Butters who is awesome.

Mantequilla!

455 wrenchwench  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 9:43:21am

re: #417 Gus 802

Hey. When Andrew Breitbart sees this page he's going to have another mental aneurism and I'll get to make new friends that I won't see on the internet.

//

Do you have a pony tail?

If so, be sure Breitbart knows!

457 Gus  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 9:44:10am

re: #455 wrenchwench

Do you have a pony tail?

If so, be sure Breitbart knows!

Used to. Got it lopped off in May.

458 Talking Point Detective  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 9:44:20am

re: #434 Gus 802

Court: No guns for people guilty of domestic violence
2/24/2009

7-2 vote?

What kind of a justice would vote against restricting access to guns for someone convicted of domestic violence.

It's just fucking insane. Slippery slope my ass.

459 Lidane  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 9:45:16am

re: #456 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Kentucky GOP Official: ‘I Feel Like Going Taliban’ On Wall Street Protesters

What right wing violence?

460 Gus  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 9:47:27am

re: #458 Talking Point Detective

7-2 vote?

What kind of a justice would vote against restricting access to guns for someone convicted of domestic violence.

It's just fucking insane. Slippery slope my ass.

Let me guess...

Thomas and Scalia? I'd have to check.

461 iossarian  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 9:48:07am

re: #458 Talking Point Detective

7-2 vote?

What kind of a justice would vote against restricting access to guns for someone convicted of domestic violence.

It's just fucking insane. Slippery slope my ass.

Scalia/Roberts.

I heard Clarence was asleep and thought he was voting to make women be worth 2/5 as much as men.

462 Gus  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 9:49:24am

re: #460 Gus 802

Let me guess...

Thomas and Scalia? I'd have to check.

Nope. Not Thomas. It was Scalia and Roberts:

[Link: www.law.cornell.edu...]

Roberts, C. J., dissenting

SUPREME COURT OF THE UNITED STATES

UNITED STATES, PETITIONER v. RANDY EDWARD
HAYES

Chief Justice Roberts, with whom Justice Scalia joins, dissenting.

463 Kragar  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 9:50:19am

Cain: "I have no idea" how 999 plan would apply to products built outside of US

Mr. Cain made it clear Wednesday his plan remained a work in progress. Visiting Concord, N.H., he added several new wrinkles. He would preserve the deduction for charitable donations, making the flat income tax not so flat; he would exempt any used goods, including previously owned homes and cars, from the national sales tax; and he would allow businesses to deduct new equipment purchases from their 9% corporate income tax, as long as the goods were U.S.-made.

Asked how that would apply to a computer designed domestically but containing Malaysian components and assembled in China, he replied, “I have no idea.”

464 Gus  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 9:50:54am

re: #461 iossarian

Scalia/Roberts.

I heard Clarence was asleep and thought he was voting to make women be worth 2/5 as much as men.

Justice Thomas joins all but Part III of this opinion.

[Link: www.law.cornell.edu...]

465 Talking Point Detective  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 9:52:02am

re: #460 Gus 802

Let me guess...

Thomas and Scalia? I'd have to check.

I wouldn't be surprised if it were a 6-3, or 5-4 vote if it were tried with the current SCOTUS. Probably the most extremist SCOTUS in history.

We found that justices vary widely in their inclination to strike down Congressional laws. Justice Clarence Thomas, appointed by President George H. W. Bush, was the most inclined, voting to invalidate 65.63 percent of those laws; Justice Stephen Breyer, appointed by President Bill Clinton, was the least, voting to invalidate 28.13 percent. The tally for all the justices appears below.

Thomas 65.63 %
Kennedy 64.06 %
Scalia 56.25 %
Rehnquist 46.88 %
O’Connor 46.77 %
Souter 42.19 %
Stevens 39.34 %
Ginsburg 39.06 %
Breyer 28.13 %

Libz are "judicial activists" my ass.

466 lawhawk  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 9:54:24am

Just got back from a quick scouting of Zuccotti Park. Things were somewhat more subdued through most of the park, but Tom Morello of Rage Against the Machine had a good sized crowd (couple hundred from the looks of it) surrounding him near the sculpture at the corner of Liberty and Broadway. There was a group of percussionists at the other end of the park for a time and some of the protesters appeared to be making an effort to tidy things up with brooms. New signs of note were about how they were going to spend the day cleaning up around the park and tomorrow they'd clean up Wall Street.

A lot of the paper signs were under tarps with all the rain overnight and showers expected through to the weekend. It's certainly put a bit of a damper on things.

467 Lidane  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 9:55:24am

re: #463 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Cain: "I have no idea" how 999 plan would apply to products built outside of US

So it's an economically illiterate plan as well as a pizza gimmick. Lovely.

468 Talking Point Detective  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 9:55:34am

And there's this:

Lori Ringhand, a professor at the University of Kentucky College of Law, examined the voting records of the Supreme Court justices from 1994 to 2005. Because judicial activism is a vague concept, she applied a reasonable, objective standard. In the study, which is forthcoming in Constitutional Commentary, justices were considered to have voted in an activist way when they voted to overturn a federal or state law, or one of the court’s own precedents.

The conservative justices were far more willing than the liberals to strike down federal laws — clearly an activist stance, since they were substituting their own judgment for that of the people’s elected representatives in Congress. Justice Thomas voted to overturn federal laws in 34 cases and Justice Scalia in 31, compared with just 15 for Justice Stephen Breyer. When state laws were at issue, the liberals were more activist. Add up the two categories, and the conservatives and liberals turned out to be roughly equal. But Justices Thomas and Scalia, who are often held out as models of nonactivism, voted to strike down laws in more of these cases than Justice Breyer and Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg, the court’s two Clinton appointees.

By the third measure, overturning the court’s own precedents (for which data were available only up to 2000), the conservatives were far more activist. Justice Thomas voted to overturn precedent 23 times and Justice Scalia 19 times, while the court’s four liberals did so in 10 cases or fewer.

469 Talking Point Detective  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 9:56:55am

re: #461 iossarian

Scalia/Roberts.

I heard Clarence was asleep and thought he was voting to make women be worth 2/5 as much as men.

No doubt, dreaming about women with large breasts.

470 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 9:57:07am

re: #332 Killgore Trout

I don't see it either but others seem to find this is indicative of the dangerous violent nature of Tea Partiers.

It doesn't seem too far removed from when some Arab-American guy kills his wife and kids, like far too many American men of all ethnicities, every year, and the usual suspects make it all about Islam.

471 Killgore Trout  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 9:57:37am

re: #466 lawhawk

I notice I'm starting to recognize various protesters, it seems the core crowd is rather small with a larger crowd that comes and goes. I heard they were going to clear the park for cleaning today. Did it go peacefully?

472 makeitstop  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 9:59:46am

re: #463 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Cain: "I have no idea" how 999 plan would apply to products built outside of US

Quickly evolving from a simple clusterfuck to a complex clusterfuck.

This is what happens when a pizza chain's marketing department tries to come up with legislative policy.

473 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 9:59:57am

re: #341 Beltboy

This deranged man seems to be nothing more than a "bumper sticker" supporter of the Tea Party yet this blog has it as part and parcel of his crime. Meanwhile, when a mass murdering thug with an obvious Middle Eastern name does the same thing this same blog goes painstakingly out of its' way to say the words "Islam" or "Muslim".
Just an observation.

So, is your point that Islam really does lead to mass murder? Because my point was sort of the other way around.

474 Gus  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 10:00:03am

Talking Points Memo
@TPM Talking Points Memo
Polls: Occupy Wall Street currently more popular than Tea Parties. [Link: t.co...] ^@erickleefeld

475 makeitstop  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 10:01:30am

re: #474 Gus 802

Talking Points Memo
@TPM Talking Points Memo
Polls: Occupy Wall Street currently more popular than Tea Parties. [Link: t.co...] ^@erickleefeld

Butbutbut..... Marxists!!!1
///

476 lawhawk  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 10:01:41am

re: #471 Killgore Trout

Yes, I'm seeing some of the same faces day after day. There is invariably a core group and some protesters who will come and go depending on their schedules or when I stop in, etc.

As far as the cleanup is concerned, that has yet to happen. I saw a few people cleaning up their individual areas (moving tarps around, tidying up, sweeping up some debris), but it's not the kind of cleanup that Brookfield was preparing to do - power washing and checking electrical systems in the park (there's a lighting system and recessed power systems in the park). That might come later in the day.

477 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 10:02:01am

re: #353 ralphieboy

We come back to a central image of the Tea party: armed insurrection against a tyrannical government.

They have enough historical cluelessness to overlook the fact that our government is not tyrannical, it was legally and fairly elected. It allows changes and corrections every two to four years though free elections.

That is the one aspect of the "we came unarmed/Second Amehndment remedies" memes that are part and parcel of the TP message, and which truly disturb me.

Couldn't agree more, but I don't think you can reasonably argue that they're so detached from reality that they think the Second Amendment encourages people to shoot up beauty parlors.

478 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 10:03:10am

re: #355 Gus 802

And meanwhile the right wing blogs go out of their way almost wishing and hoping that every crime like this was committed by a Muslim.

In fact, they routinely assume they were, and don't bother to correct later, if they turn out to be mistaken.

479 Gus  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 10:05:13am

re: #478 SanFranciscoZionist

In fact, they routinely assume they were, and don't bother to correct later, if they turn out to be mistaken.

Very, very common. Now, it's not just the Tea Partiers of course. It includes a variety of other wingnut sub-species.

480 lawhawk  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 10:05:28am

re: #472 makeitstop

What is claimed to be tax simplification turns out to be anything but.

For what it's worth, a national sales tax would end up being far more intrusive than the current income tax structure (particularly from a reporting/payment/audit) perspective (yes - the IRS would need to grow to accommodate such changes). States require reporting/remittance on a monthly basis, and audits have to be carried out more frequently as a result. The flip side of a national sales tax is that revenue comes in more regularly - not like the income tax that sees surges during tax season.

481 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 10:06:23am

re: #363 Gus 802

I suggest that people re-read Freetoken's comment here:

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

I would add that this is more than just a domestic violence incident. A true domestic violence incident would only involve the spouse and/or children. This is a mass shooting perpetrated by a heavily armed individual who also wore body armor (allegedly) indicating that he was prepared or preparing for a shoot out with the police. Why would he have gone into a beauty salon of all places wearing body armor simply for the purpose of killing his wife?

Then there is the gun-control aspect of this incident. One that will be either ignored or put on the back burner once again in fear of the 2nd Amendment lobbyists not limited to the NRA. It is very likely that this individual murdered, slaughtered, 8 people using a LEGAL weapon. This may not have been a political act but there are many political ramifications regarding this event.

This strikes me as following the pattern of a workplace shooting, like the one Cupertino mere days ago. The twist here is that,of course, it was not his own workplace.

482 Simply Sarah  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 10:08:26am

re: #465 Talking Point Detective

I wouldn't be surprised if it were a 6-3, or 5-4 vote if it were tried with the current SCOTUS. Probably the most extremist SCOTUS in history.

Libz are "judicial activists" my ass.

Actually, uh, the only changes since then were Sotomayor replacing Souter and Kagan replacing Stevens, so it's likely the vote would have been the same.

483 Beltboy  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 10:08:31am

re: #473 SanFranciscoZionist

The other way around?? Mass murder leads to Islam? You mean?

484 Killgore Trout  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 10:08:43am

re: #481 SanFranciscoZionist

This strikes me as following the pattern of a workplace shooting, like the one Cupertino mere days ago. The twist here is that,of course, it was not his own workplace.

Was that the union guy? I remember there being some concern the wingnuts would try to blame violent union members for stoking violence. I didn't see any wingnuts take that approach.

485 Gus  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 10:09:09am

Wall Street invented class warfare.

OK. But Naomi Klein? Hmmm.

486 lawhawk  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 10:10:26am

re: #443 iossarian

Some of that has to do with the difficulty of prosecuting white collar crimes - where bank fraud and tracking down those kinds of crimes to gather evidence isn't nearly as simple as a fingerprint match on the stolen property.

At the same time, the slow pace of justice on white collar crimes (or ignoring them when they occur) is troublesome and shows a lack of priorities when the criminal conduct is carried out in the boardroom.

487 makeitstop  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 10:11:33am

re: #474 Gus 802

Talking Points Memo
@TPM Talking Points Memo
Polls: Occupy Wall Street currently more popular than Tea Parties. [Link: t.co...] ^@erickleefeld

Some relevant numbers:

A combined 54% had a favorable impression — exactly double that of the Tea Party.

The same poll went on to ask about a variety of specific OWS-related positions, all of which enjoyed strong support — 68% want the wealthy to pay more taxes; 71% want to see bankers prosecuted for the 2008 crash; 79% believe the gap between rich and poor in the U.S. has grown too large; 86% believe Wall Street and its lobbyists have too much influence.

OWS is starting to look a little less like a 'fringe' movement, judging by those numbers.

488 Simply Sarah  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 10:12:17am

re: #486 lawhawk

Some of that has to do with the difficulty of prosecuting white collar crimes - where bank fraud and tracking down those kinds of crimes to gather evidence isn't nearly as simple as a fingerprint match on the stolen property.

At the same time, the slow pace of justice on white collar crimes (or ignoring them when they occur) is troublesome and shows a lack of priorities when the criminal conduct is carried out in the boardroom.

That's certainly part of it. Another part is laws tend to be loose as hell when it comes to dealing with white collar crimes, which only adds to the seeming lack of priority in enforcing those actually in place.

489 Gus  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 10:13:06am

re: #484 Killgore Trout

Was that the union guy? I remember there being some concern the wingnuts would try to blame violent union members for stoking violence. I didn't see any wingnuts take that approach.

Here.

His friends and colleagues can’t believe their “peaceful” community activist friend would do such a thing.

Time for a reality check...

490 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 10:13:14am

re: #483 Beltboy

The other way around?? Mass murder leads to Islam? You mean?

No, that you can't explain a crime by noting that the perp was a Tea Partier, or a Muslim, unless the motivation for the crime is actually connected to those things, and unless you would acknowledge the same influence in an analogous situation.

491 Gus  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 10:13:50am

re: #484 Killgore Trout

Was that the union guy? I remember there being some concern the wingnuts would try to blame violent union members for stoking violence. I didn't see any wingnuts take that approach.

More wingnut fun.

492 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 10:15:09am

re: #484 Killgore Trout

Was that the union guy? I remember there being some concern the wingnuts would try to blame violent union members for stoking violence. I didn't see any wingnuts take that approach.

Yes, Shareef Allman. No idea if wingnuts even noticed it had happened.

493 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 10:16:27am

re: #485 Gus 802

Wall Street invented class warfare.

OK. But Naomi Klein? Hmmm.

Naomi Klein is a bit of PITA. But at least she is not Naomi Wolf, who completely lost her marbles sometime during Bush's second term.

494 Gus  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 10:17:44am

re: #493 SanFranciscoZionist

Naomi Klein is a bit of PITA. But at least she is not Naomi Wolf, who completely lost her marbles sometime during Bush's second term.

Oh. You're right. I mixed up the two. I was thinking of Naomi Wolf.

495 Simply Sarah  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 10:17:50am

re: #487 makeitstop

Some relevant numbers:

OWS is starting to look a little less like a 'fringe' movement, judging by those numbers.

Well, I don't think there has ever been any much real question about if the core complaints at the heart of OWS reflected the feelings of most Americans, as they clear do give voice to the frustrations most people have. The real question is if there's a will and support for any sort of specific action to try and address those grievances and there, I think, is where opinions tend to start to diverge significantly.

496 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 10:18:05am

re: #442 Lidane

Morning, Lizards! South Park continue to be a bunch of funny bastards:

[Link: www.southparkstudios.com...]

In case you didn't see the recent documentary "6 Days to Air", you can see it here. I enjoyed it thoroughly, but I'm a total sucker for "behind-the-scenes" looks at anything, so maybe I'm over-appreciative.

497 wrenchwench  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 10:18:50am

re: #481 SanFranciscoZionist

This strikes me as following the pattern of a workplace shooting, like the one Cupertino mere days ago. The twist here is that,of course, it was not his own workplace.

His ex's workplace may have been where she got a lot of support and encouragement, and if he knew that, he could have been motivated to take it out on all of them.

498 Gus  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 10:19:16am

re: #485 Gus 802

Wall Street invented class warfare.

OK. But Naomi Klein? Hmmm.

Nevermind. I was thinking about Naomi Wolf.

Fixed.

499 Gus  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 10:20:01am

re: #497 wrenchwench

His ex's workplace may have been where she got a lot of support and encouragement, and if he knew that, he could have been motivated to take it out on all of them.

To destroy her and those that she loved.

500 wrenchwench  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 10:20:53am

re: #499 Gus 802

To destroy her and those that she loved.

Those who sided with her against him.

501 Gus  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 10:25:33am

re: #500 wrenchwench

Those who sided with her against him.

That too. Keep in mind that she worked at a beauty parlor. Things can get might gossipy in those places. My brother went through a divorce and his now ex-wife was a hair stylist. Well, it involved a lot of "talk" shall we say and her getting pregnant by someone that worked there. You need a cast iron stomach to put up with the drama.

502 Reverend Mother Ramallo  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 10:30:11am

re: #284 RogueOne

I didn't see this earlier, but I'm so not surprised.
I was born and raised in Ohio.These kinds of situations happen here all the time. Some lovely citizens tried to pull my father out of the car window when I was a little girl. I was in the back seat, because he didn't belong in their neighborhood, (big mistake ).
The police have stopped my brother on more than one occasion for the same reason...
Ohio, in my opinion, may be one of the most racist states in the Union. The undercurrent is so strong that many of my out of state visitors, many of whom are southern, have run away in horror.

503 Amory Blaine  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 10:33:14am

re: #399 Killgore Trout

No, but it will get peoples to their jobs, small businesses will be open, emergency vehicles can get people to the hospital, etc. It's a good thing that these people aren't allowed to disrupt the city any more than necessary.

Our freeway gets jammed up before and after every Brewer game. Shouldn't be allowed to disrupt the city.

504 Gus  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 12:48:34pm

Charles can you please strike the word "allegedly" from the opening line? So it reads:

Today, 8 people were shot and killed at a Seal Beach beauty salon by suspect Scott DeKraai as reported by the Los Alamitos Seal Beach Patch:

Thanks.

505 Lidane  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 3:39:47pm

re: #496 negativ

In case you didn't see the recent documentary "6 Days to Air", you can see it here. I enjoyed it thoroughly, but I'm a total sucker for "behind-the-scenes" looks at anything, so maybe I'm over-appreciative.

I set it up to DVR and watched it on Monday. Funny stuff. And yeah, I'm a sucker for the behind the scenes stuff, so I liked it.

Honestly they should do it for every episode. I'd love to see more.

506 Hawaii69  Thu, Oct 13, 2011 4:42:43pm

Apparently, when you "help save america", that doesn't include your ex-wife and her co-workers.....

I still think the Tea Party connection is a non-issue. People of all political persuasions flip out.


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