The latest NBC News/Wall Street Journal poll shows Herman Cain surging into the lead among the GOP presidential candidates, with 27% of Republican voters picking him as their first choice: NBC/WSJ poll: Cain now leads GOP pack.
But there’s more to the story: in match-ups for the general election, President Obama leads Herman Cain by 11 points.
2 |
jamesfirecat Thu, Oct 13, 2011 10:19:31am |
So the GOP is in position to make their candidate someone who has next to no chance of winning?
“Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake.”
—-Napoleon Bonaparte
Do go on….
| 3 |
Simply Sarah Thu, Oct 13, 2011 10:21:16am |
OK, but we need to start a pool on who will be leading the field three weeks from now. I’ll go with Newt, because why the fuck not at this point?
| 4 |
Kragar (Antichrist ) Thu, Oct 13, 2011 10:21:16am |
| 5 |
wrenchwench Thu, Oct 13, 2011 10:22:38am |
re: #3 Simply Sarah
OK, but we need to start a pool on who will be leading the field three weeks from now. I’ll go with Newt, because why the fuck not at this point?
I’ll go with John Eric Republican.
| 6 |
Stormageddon, Dark Lord of All Thu, Oct 13, 2011 10:23:49am |
Let’s be blunt. Romney cannot win the Republican nomination. Weigel hit things right on the head when he pointed out that Romney’s support comes from low information voters and the anti-tea party crowd. Perry had a massive collapse of support and not a single point went to Romney. Those are the kinds of warning signs that Romney may be near his ceiling in the Republican party.
The only thing that could keep Romney in the running is fractured support. Which is why Romney is trying to support Bachmann and even Perry at this point.
Even if Romney were nominated, you’d see a serious revolt in the (even more) conservative wing of the Republican party. I wouldn’t be surprised to see a third party candidate come from the disgruntled tea party members.
| 7 |
Feline Fearless Leader Thu, Oct 13, 2011 10:24:11am |
Cue rumblings from the Sarah Palin camp in 4, 3, 2, 1…
About the right time to try to get the spotlight back and keep those contributions from the rubes uhh, concerned Americans coming in.
| 8 |
BongCrodny Thu, Oct 13, 2011 10:25:17am |
The next time someone takes a poll, they really should include “Anybody but Mitt Romney” as an option.
| 9 |
jaunte Thu, Oct 13, 2011 10:25:46am |
The first surrealist candidate for President?
| 11 |
Simply Sarah Thu, Oct 13, 2011 10:27:16am |
re: #6 bloodstar
Let’s be blunt. Romney cannot win the Republican nomination. Weigel hit things right on the head when he pointed out that Romney’s support comes from low information voters and the anti-tea party crowd. Perry had a massive collapse of support and not a single point went to Romney. Those are the kinds of warning signs that Romney may be near his ceiling in the Republican party.
The only thing that could keep Romney in the running is fractured support. Which is why Romney is trying to support Bachmann and even Perry at this point.
Even if Romney were nominated, you’d see a serious revolt in the (even more) conservative wing of the Republican party. I wouldn’t be surprised to see a third party candidate come from the disgruntled tea party members.
I think Romney still has the best chance to win the nomination. So far, no other candidate has been very successful in getting and holding the part of the party that doesn’t seem excited about voting for Romney. If the vote is split between several other candidates, he’s probably in good shape. Of course, if people start dropping out or someone solidifies a backing, he might very well be in trouble.
| 12 |
Killgore Trout Thu, Oct 13, 2011 10:28:51am |
re: #6 bloodstar
Let’s be blunt. Romney cannot win the Republican nomination. Weigel hit things right on the head when he pointed out that Romney’s support comes from low information voters and the anti-tea party crowd. Perry had a massive collapse of support and not a single point went to Romney. Those are the kinds of warning signs that Romney may be near his ceiling in the Republican party.
The only thing that could keep Romney in the running is fractured support. Which is why Romney is trying to support Bachmann and even Perry at this point.
Even if Romney were nominated, you’d see a serious revolt in the (even more) conservative wing of the Republican party. I wouldn’t be surprised to see a third party candidate come from the disgruntled tea party members.
Mitt could have a chance in the general election even with the fractured support. Obama’s approval ratings are pretty bad and his base seems more interested in Marxist rallies and drum circles than getting him reelected. A 3rd party Tea Partier would easily swing things in Obama’s favor.
| 13 |
lawhawk Thu, Oct 13, 2011 10:30:34am |
The crosstabs are pretty interesting:
Right/wrong track - 11/71, worst showing in months and more people are saying that we’re on the wrong track. That correlates with the perception of the economy being in a rut.
Obama positives/negatives: 46% (23 very, 23 somewhat) positive 14% neutral 40% (12 somewhat, 28 very) negative
Democratic Party splits: 37% (12 very 25 somewhat) positive, 19% neutral, 42% (20 somewhat, 22 very) negative 2 DK.
The GOP fares significantly worse:
33% (11 very, 22 somewhat) positive, 21% neutral, 44% (18 somewhat, 26 very) negative.
The Tea Party strikes a similar stance vis a vis the GOP.
Among GOP candidates, all except Cain have a net negative view. Cain has a +6, which is the same as Obama is getting currently, but in a head to head matchup, Cain would lose badly. Romney would be close (losing by 2). Everyone else in the field would lose badly.
Among GOP voters, Cain has the best positive/negative ratio, followed by Romney and then Gingrich. Cain gained in the ranks by taking away from Perry’s base, while Romney remained constant. Once Cain’s policies get more scrutiny, I think we’ll see Romney capitalize on that.
| 14 |
goddamnedfrank Thu, Oct 13, 2011 10:30:40am |
Herman Cain said that used goods would be exempt from his 9% national sales tax. What do you think that’s going to do to the nation’s automobile manufacturers and home builders?
The 9-9-9 plan just might be the stone stupidest economic idea ever conceived by man.
| 15 |
Gus Thu, Oct 13, 2011 10:31:04am |
re: #12 Killgore Trout
Mitt could have a chance in the general election even with the fractured support. Obama’s approval ratings are pretty bad and his base seems more interested in Marxist rallies and drum circles than getting him reelected. A 3rd party Tea Partier would easily swing things in Obama’s favor.
OK. This made me laugh.
| 16 |
jamesfirecat Thu, Oct 13, 2011 10:31:19am |
re: #12 Killgore Trout
Mitt could have a chance in the general election even with the fractured support. Obama’s approval ratings are pretty bad and his base seems more interested in Marxist rallies and drum circles than getting him reelected. A 3rd party Tea Partier would easily swing things in Obama’s favor.
What do you want to see “Obama’s” people doing to prove they are interested in getting him reelected?
| 17 |
Goosestepping Obama Tina Brown Thu, Oct 13, 2011 10:31:40am |
Wow. I can’t believe Obamas lead is only 11 points.
I guess, for me, the GOP seems so full of completely insane ridiculous people that even an al dente noodle could beat any of them by at least a few points.
I am really surprised.
| 18 |
S'latch Thu, Oct 13, 2011 10:31:49am |
I suspect that these polls accurate to the extent that polls are meaningful. But, there is no way I can believe that the GOP will nominate Herman Cain. He is a time bomb set for self-destruction just as Perry was. What this poll indicates to me is merely that the bomb hasn’t gone off yet.
| 19 |
BongCrodny Thu, Oct 13, 2011 10:32:30am |
Seeing ads now from RON PAUL and Rick Santorum.
I feel like I’ve hit the Derp Daily Double.
| 20 |
Talking Point Detective Thu, Oct 13, 2011 10:32:33am |
and his base seems more interested in Marxist rallies and drum circles than getting him reelected.
What do you consider to be Obama’s “base?”
| 21 |
jaunte Thu, Oct 13, 2011 10:33:11am |
re: #17 Cankles McCellulite
It is surprising, but it’s probably the effect of overall economic pain on an incumbent.
| 22 |
Gus Thu, Oct 13, 2011 10:33:15am |
re: #12 Killgore Trout
Mitt could have a chance in the general election even with the fractured support. Obama’s approval ratings are pretty bad and his base seems more interested in Marxist rallies and drum circles than getting him reelected. A 3rd party Tea Partier would easily swing things in Obama’s favor.
BarackObama Barack Obama
Together, we raised more than $70 million this quarter. Thank you.
6 minutes agoBarack Obama
BarackObama Barack Obama
Of the people who gave this quarter, 257,635 people were entirely new to this movement.
14 minutes agoBarack Obama
BarackObama Barack Obama
98% of the donations people made this quarter were $250 or less, and the average amount was $56.
24 minutes agoBarack Obama
BarackObama Barack Obama
Folks made 766,000 donations—more than twice as many as we had at this point in the 2008 campaign.
33 minutes agoBarack Obama
BarackObama Barack Obama
This quarter, 606,027 people donated to this campaign—even more than last quarter.
43 minutes ago
Have you donated yet?
| 23 |
Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut Thu, Oct 13, 2011 10:34:06am |
re: #12 Killgore Trout
I really don’t think that’s his base out there at those rallies. I don’t know why you think it is.
| 24 |
uncah91 Thu, Oct 13, 2011 10:34:10am |
I think the basic problem for the current Republican base is that they are looking for a candidate who can make a coherent argument for why the Tea Parties illogical positions are, in fact, logical.
For a variety of reasons, going back to the ancient Greek philosopher Plato, this is almost impossible.
| 25 |
Simply Sarah Thu, Oct 13, 2011 10:34:49am |
re: #12 Killgore Trout
Mitt could have a chance in the general election even with the fractured support. Obama’s approval ratings are pretty bad and his base seems more interested in Marxist rallies and drum circles than getting him reelected. A 3rd party Tea Partier would easily swing things in Obama’s favor.
See, I view Obama’s main problem in a bit of a different light. First of all, a bad economy isn’t helpful for any incumbent president. But even more than that, I think the whole situation has robbed him of one of his biggest strengths last time: Hope. Now, hope isn’t what got him elected per se, but it certainly added to the strength and size of his base of support. When a big part of getting elected is how you’ll make things better, it’s not good when they largely haven’t (In the minds of most people) and you’re trying to get re-elected.
| 26 |
Talking Point Detective Thu, Oct 13, 2011 10:35:27am |
re: #23 Obdicut
I really don’t think that’s his base out there at those rallies. I don’t know why you think it is.
Moonbat Derangement Syndrome?
| 27 |
lawhawk Thu, Oct 13, 2011 10:35:59am |
Another thing to keep in mind about this particular poll. It was held October 6-10. That’s before the latest GOP debate and voters might have reacted quite differently to Perry and Cain’s performance as compared to Romney and others on the panel.
It will be interesting to see the next polling that comes out taking into account the October 11 debate. The next debate BTW, is the 18th.
| 28 |
zora Thu, Oct 13, 2011 10:36:16am |
re: #20 Talking Point Detective
marxists, moonbats, and anti-semites, don’t you know.
| 29 |
jamesfirecat Thu, Oct 13, 2011 10:36:47am |
| 30 |
Talking Point Detective Thu, Oct 13, 2011 10:37:24am |
| 31 |
Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut Thu, Oct 13, 2011 10:37:37am |
re: #25 Simply Sarah
Yeah. Part of the problem of realizing how enormously the deck is currently stacked against ordinary labor as compared to capital and citizens compared to corporate interests, is that it can be a bit overwhelming. A lot of people become defeatist; that’s some of what I saw out at the OWS protest (only some), which was people who had their hope so mangled that they were disillusioned completely with the entire political system and no longer participating in it.
| 32 |
wrenchwench Thu, Oct 13, 2011 10:37:38am |
re: #6 bloodstar
Let’s be blunt. Romney cannot win the Republican nomination. Weigel hit things right on the head when he pointed out that Romney’s support comes from low information voters and the anti-tea party crowd. Perry had a massive collapse of support and not a single point went to Romney. Those are the kinds of warning signs that Romney may be near his ceiling in the Republican party.
The only thing that could keep Romney in the running is fractured support. Which is why Romney is trying to support Bachmann and even Perry at this point.
Even if Romney were nominated, you’d see a serious revolt in the (even more) conservative wing of the Republican party. I wouldn’t be surprised to see a third party candidate come from the disgruntled tea party members.
Weigel is damn smart but I don’t trust him.
| 33 |
uncah91 Thu, Oct 13, 2011 10:39:35am |
re: #25 Simply Sarah
See, I view Obama’s main problem in a bit of a different light. First of all, a bad economy isn’t helpful for any incumbent president. But even more than that, I think the whole situation has robbed him of one of his biggest strengths last time: Hope. Now, hope isn’t what got him elected per se, but it certainly added to the strength and size of his base of support. When a big part of getting elected is how you’ll make things better, it’s not good when they largely haven’t (In the minds of most people) and you’re trying to get re-elected.
I think part of it is also that the active liberal/Democratic voices have not been willing to give Obama any credit. This creates the general impression of defeat even in the face of historic success, for example, the healthcare legislation.
| 34 |
brandon13 Thu, Oct 13, 2011 10:39:50am |
I really thought Perry was going to run away with the nomination once he jumped in, but I never anticipated that he would make the strategic errors he has made. Cain cannot win. He just can’t. Give it a month or so and his support will be back to around 10%.
Conservatives will hold their nose and nominate Romney because he’s the only one with a chance in hell at defeating Obama.
| 35 |
Talking Point Detective Thu, Oct 13, 2011 10:39:52am |
re: #32 wrenchwench
Even if Romney were nominated, you’d see a serious revolt in the (even more) conservative wing of the Republican party. I wouldn’t be surprised to see a third party candidate come from the disgruntled tea party members.
I’d be more than happy to contribute to a 3rd party candidate from the Tea Party.
If you get my drift.
| 36 |
Simply Sarah Thu, Oct 13, 2011 10:40:17am |
re: #31 Obdicut
Yeah. Part of the problem of realizing how enormously the deck is currently stacked against ordinary labor as compared to capital and citizens compared to corporate interests, is that it can be a bit overwhelming. A lot of people become defeatist; that’s some of what I saw out at the OWS protest (only some), which was people who had their hope so mangled that they were disillusioned completely with the entire political system and no longer participating in it.
Yep. A discouraged electorate also tends to favor those with the most fanatical support.
| 37 |
Charleston Chew Thu, Oct 13, 2011 10:40:18am |
re: #4 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
HuffPo thinks they’ve found the inspiration for his 999 plan:
[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com…]
| 38 |
Moodsman Thu, Oct 13, 2011 10:41:02am |
Cain = flavor of the week.
Wasn’t Donald Trump ahead in the polls a few weeks ago? What about Bachman… she lead for a few days. And let’s not forget Perry, the savior of the Republican Party… but maybe (for the good of the country) we will forget him.
Interestingly, Obama with his 9% unemployment is still more popular than ANY Republican candidate within their own party, and more popular than the Republican Party itself.
| 39 |
wrenchwench Thu, Oct 13, 2011 10:41:12am |
re: #35 Talking Point Detective
I’d be more than happy to contribute to a 3rd party candidate from the Tea Party.
If you get my drift.
Me too, I get your drift, but what you quoted there is from bloodstar.
| 40 |
kwb2003 Thu, Oct 13, 2011 10:41:15am |
I don’t know how you can vote for the Herminator. Won’t his 999 (666?) plan bring the Devil? At least that’s what Michelle Bachmen said.
| 41 |
Killgore Trout Thu, Oct 13, 2011 10:41:18am |
re: #22 Gus 802
Have you donated yet?
I have a very strict policy against giving money to millionaires.
| 42 |
William Barnett-Lewis Thu, Oct 13, 2011 10:42:09am |
re: #12 Killgore Trout
I really really really do not get your fixation on teh ebil Marxists under the bed.
| 43 |
Amory Blaine Thu, Oct 13, 2011 10:42:34am |
Hilarity Continues
Herman Cain 999 Plan: Did It Come From SimCity?
| 44 |
Gus Thu, Oct 13, 2011 10:43:03am |
re: #41 Killgore Trout
I have a very strict policy against giving money to millionaires.
I don’t understand this comment. I’m talking about contributing to the Obama presidential campaign.
| 45 |
brandon13 Thu, Oct 13, 2011 10:43:42am |
re: #38 Moodsman
Cain = flavor of the week.
Wasn’t Donald Trump ahead in the polls a few weeks ago? What about Bachman… she lead for a few days. And let’s not forget Perry, the savior of the Republican Party… but maybe (for the good of the country) we will forget him.
Interestingly, Obama with his 9% unemployment is still more popular than ANY Republican candidate within their own party, and more popular than the Republican Party itself.
Exactly. For as bad as Obama’s approval ratings are, when matched up against potential Republican nominees he wins fairly easily, with the exception of Romney.
It’s pretty telling of just how out of touch the Republican party is with most Americans.
| 46 |
uncah91 Thu, Oct 13, 2011 10:43:56am |
re: #34 brandon13
I really thought Perry was going to run away with the nomination once he jumped in, but I never anticipated that he would make the strategic errors he has made. Cain cannot win. He just can’t. Give it a month or so and his support will be back to around 10%.
Conservatives will hold their nose and nominate Romney because he’s the only one with a chance in hell at defeating Obama.
If Romney is nominated, it won’t be because there is a calculation about being able to win against Obama. The base is looking for a pure candidate. They have failed to find one.
Perry would be the nominee if he didn’t turn in a Palin level performance once he hit the national stage.
If Romney is nominated, it will be because the other candidates having glaring flaws that are still glaring when voters hit the booth.
| 47 |
goddamnedfrank Thu, Oct 13, 2011 10:44:16am |
re: #14 goddamnedfrank
Herman Cain said that used goods would be exempt from his 9% national sales tax. What do you think that’s going to do to the nation’s automobile manufacturers and home builders?
The 9-9-9 plan just might be the stone stupidest economic idea ever conceived by man.
In case anyone thinks I’m making this up:
They still have $5,500 left over to apply to the sales tax piece, and if you go and look at how much of it they would probably spend on sales taxes for new goods, not used, used goods they don’t pay a sales tax.
People should look at his plan. There’s no exception for food, clothing, rent/housing, medical expenses (emergency or otherwise), services, etc. The only sales that get a break are used goods. It’s goddamned insanity.
| 48 |
Charleston Chew Thu, Oct 13, 2011 10:44:21am |
re: #12 Killgore Trout
Mitt could have a chance in the general election even with the fractured support. Obama’s approval ratings are pretty bad and his base seems more interested in Marxist rallies and drum circles than getting him reelected. A 3rd party Tea Partier would easily swing things in Obama’s favor.
$70 million last quarter says Alexrod etc. are well focused on the goal.
| 49 |
thatthatisis Thu, Oct 13, 2011 10:44:22am |
I agree with those who think the country is heading in the wrong direction, and that’s what I’d tell a pollster, too. However, the reason I think it’s going in the wrong direction is that we have a House that just voted on its umpteenth abortion bill, has not suggested a single jobs bill, nearly brought our country to a standstill, and criticizes Obama for lack of leadership.
Wrong track? Absolutely. Anti Obama? Heck no.
| 50 |
sattv4u2 Thu, Oct 13, 2011 10:45:18am |
re: #41 Killgore Trout
I have a very strict policy against giving money to millionaires.
You’ve never bought stuff??? A computer,, a car,,,, food,,,
//
| 51 |
Goosestepping Obama Tina Brown Thu, Oct 13, 2011 10:45:33am |
re: #34 brandon13
I am not so sure everyone in the GOP wants to unseat Obama. The right has been very successful since Obama became President. Right wing news, radio, blogs, books, speakers, anti abortion measures etc.
They have all benefited greatly from a Democratic president.
| 52 |
Amory Blaine Thu, Oct 13, 2011 10:46:16am |
re: #41 Killgore Trout
I have a very strict policy against giving money to millionaires.
Marxist sympathies?
| 53 |
Charleston Chew Thu, Oct 13, 2011 10:46:25am |
re: #14 goddamnedfrank
Herman Cain said that used goods would be exempt from his 9% national sales tax. What do you think that’s going to do to the nation’s automobile manufacturers and home builders?
The 9-9-9 plan just might be the stone stupidest economic idea ever conceived by man.
My God, we’ll all have an economic incentive to dress like hipsters. Oh the humanity.
| 54 |
Feline Fearless Leader Thu, Oct 13, 2011 10:46:40am |
re: #42 wlewisiii
I really really really do not get your fixation on teh ebil Marxists under the bed.
Remember that “liberal” backwards is “lar ebil”!
| 55 |
Gus Thu, Oct 13, 2011 10:46:49am |
re: #51 Cankles McCellulite
I am not so sure everyone in the GOP wants to unseat Obama. The right has been very successful since Obama became President. Right wing news, radio, blogs, books, speakers, anti abortion measures etc.
They have all benefited greatly from a Democratic president.
We call that the Obama-Derangement-Industrial Complex ©.
//
| 56 |
jaunte Thu, Oct 13, 2011 10:47:44am |
re: #47 goddamnedfrank
There’s a nice concise statement from your link:
ABC News has also found that Cain’s plan doubles the tax burden on the middle class.
| 57 |
goddamnedfrank Thu, Oct 13, 2011 10:47:55am |
re: #43 Amory Blaine
Hilarity Continues
Herman Cain 999 Plan: Did It Come From SimCity?
I wouldn’t be surprised, we’re talking about a man who quoted a Pokemon theme song.
| 58 |
makeitstop Thu, Oct 13, 2011 10:48:55am |
| 59 |
Killgore Trout Thu, Oct 13, 2011 10:49:03am |
re: #44 Gus 802
I don’t understand this comment. I’m talking about contributing to the Obama presidential campaign.
He’s very wealthy.
| 60 |
thatthatisis Thu, Oct 13, 2011 10:49:51am |
So few people have really looked into Cain’s 999 plan. He says it “broadens the base”, and that’s why he can reduce rates and collect the same total tax revenue.
That really boils down to increasing the federal taxes on people making $20 and $30 thousand a year, while decreasing the taxes on kagillionaires.
And Social Security? Part of his plan includes a suggestion that you go to the city and state governments (oh yeah - like they’re rolling in money), and beg from your local church.
Sign me up //
| 61 |
Killgore Trout Thu, Oct 13, 2011 10:50:56am |
Occupy Wall Street protesters refuse to leave for park cleaning
The cleaning will be done in several stages, and when certain areas are cleaned, protesters will be able to come back to the park if they obey the rules set forth by the owners, Brookfield Properties, the statement said.
“As the protest has continued, Brookfield has expressed concern about its inability to clean the park and maintain it in a condition fit for public use,” Holloway said in the statement.
Combelic said police have begun distributing a pamphlet at the park outlining “new rules” for protesters after the scheduled cleanup, which prohibit sleeping bags, tarps, people lying down, sleeping or storage of personal effects.
| 62 |
Talking Point Detective Thu, Oct 13, 2011 10:51:33am |
| 63 |
wrenchwench Thu, Oct 13, 2011 10:51:43am |
re: #56 jaunte
There’s a nice concise statement from your link:
ABC News has also found that Cain’s plan doubles the tax burden on the middle class.
Most states and local governments already have a sales tax. Here it’s over 7%, except on food. That would make it over 16% with the federal sales tax on top of it. And sales tax is the most expensive type of tax to collect, with the burden falling on retailers.
| 64 |
Feline Fearless Leader Thu, Oct 13, 2011 10:51:55am |
re: #47 goddamnedfrank
In case anyone thinks I’m making this up:
People should look at his plan. There’s no exception for food, clothing, rent/housing, medical expenses (emergency or otherwise), services, etc. The only sales that get a break are used goods. It’s goddamned insanity.
And the concept of marginal utility as it applies to the dollar is not that complex. Which is why I write most of this stuff off as pandering and looking for sound bites. These candidates (and their advisors) can not be that stupid.
| 65 |
jaunte Thu, Oct 13, 2011 10:52:19am |
They still have $5,500 left over to apply to the sales tax piece, and if you go and look at how much of it they would probably spend on sales taxes for new goods, not used, used goods they don’t pay a sales tax.
Used bandages = healthcare savings.
| 66 |
Gus Thu, Oct 13, 2011 10:52:42am |
re: #59 Killgore Trout
He’s very wealthy.
So you won’t contribute yet you are concerned that the “base seems more interested in Marxist rallies and drum circles than getting him reelected”? So what is your true stand here? Do you support Obama or are you simply out to heckle either the TP and/or OWS demonstrators. Contributing money to the Obama campaign is the easiest way for people to show their support by putting money where their mouth is.
| 67 |
Amory Blaine Thu, Oct 13, 2011 10:53:17am |
re: #47 goddamnedfrank
In case anyone thinks I’m making this up:
People should look at his plan. There’s no exception for food, clothing, rent/housing, medical expenses (emergency or otherwise), services, etc. The only sales that get a break are used goods. It’s goddamned insanity.
It’ll look like Cuba in a few years with all the classic cars on the road.
| 68 |
Stormageddon, Dark Lord of All Thu, Oct 13, 2011 10:53:22am |
re: #32 wrenchwench
Weigel is damn smart but I don’t trust him.
In this case, trust isn’t a major concern. His analysis of the PPP survey seems spot on, and the main thrust, that Romney isn’t picking up any support as a particular ‘Candidate of the Day’ craters.
I’m Agnostic towards most political writers, most of them have committed some sort of gaffe or made a stupid decision at some point. (don’t we all?) So I don’t hold an occasional error or stupid decision against them. It’s when there’s a pattern of misinformation and intentional deception (I’m looking at you WND!), that I discount even the basic information stated on their site.
| 69 |
Decatur Deb Thu, Oct 13, 2011 10:54:39am |
re: #63 wrenchwench
Most states and local governments already have a sales tax. Here it’s over 7%, except on food. That would make it over 16% with the federal sales tax on top of it. And sales tax is the most expensive type of tax to collect, with the burden falling on retailers.
It’s 9% here, including food, books and non-prescription medicines.
| 70 |
Charles Johnson Thu, Oct 13, 2011 10:56:05am |
re: #34 brandon13
Conservatives will hold their nose and nominate Romney because he’s the only one with a chance in hell at defeating Obama.
Whether the base wants it or not, Romney will be the GOP candidate because he’s next in line among the Republican good ol’ boys with all the money.
| 71 |
Gus Thu, Oct 13, 2011 10:56:25am |
I don’t think the American people need OWS to realize that the economy is still in the toilet.
| 72 |
wrenchwench Thu, Oct 13, 2011 10:57:05am |
re: #68 bloodstar
In this case, trust isn’t a major concern. His analysis of the PPP survey seems spot on, and the main thrust, that Romney isn’t picking up any support as a particular ‘Candidate of the Day’ craters.
I’m Agnostic towards most political writers, most of them have committed some sort of gaffe or made a stupid decision at some point. (don’t we all?) So I don’t hold an occasional error or stupid decision against them. It’s when there’s a pattern of misinformation and intentional deception (I’m looking at you WND!), that I discount even the basic information stated on their site.
Having the execrable Steve Sailer on his blogroll goes beyond ‘gaffe’. I suspect he subtly grinds his ax with every article he writes.
| 73 |
anonymous gun expert Thu, Oct 13, 2011 10:57:51am |
re: #12 Killgore Trout
Mitt could have a chance in the general election even with the fractured support. Obama’s approval ratings are pretty bad and his base seems more interested in Marxist rallies and drum circles than getting him reelected. A 3rd party Tea Partier would easily swing things in Obama’s favor.
This is the type of posting that I expect at Huff post. Since when is regulation of financial markets Marxism? Where you sleeping while the banks screwed the economy?
| 74 |
wrenchwench Thu, Oct 13, 2011 10:58:19am |
re: #69 Decatur Deb
It’s 9% here, including food, books and non-prescription medicines.
NM only recently took it off of food, under Bill Richardson. It’s unconscionable, in my opinion.
| 75 |
thatthatisis Thu, Oct 13, 2011 10:58:21am |
Cain’s 999 plan, while putting a 9% tax on food, clothing and medical care, does away with any estate tax, and all capital gains taxes.
In fact, if 999 were to pass, get ready for OWS all over, because most of us wouldn’t be able to afford a home to live in anyway.
| 76 |
William Barnett-Lewis Thu, Oct 13, 2011 10:59:21am |
re: #71 Gus 802
I don’t think the American people need OWS to realize that the economy is still in the toilet.
But if OWS helps the mass of Americans to understand the GOP obstructionism that has been intentionally keeping the economy crappy? That’s it’s real potential. And as the 99% meme takes hold I hope people will see that as well.
The Dems aren’t very much better but just about anything is better than the GOP right now.
| 77 |
Moodsman Thu, Oct 13, 2011 10:59:53am |
I’m a liberal democrat, and I just sent $25 to the Huntsman campaign.
The other options are that scary.
| 78 |
Decatur Deb Thu, Oct 13, 2011 11:00:40am |
re: #75 thatthatisis
Cain’s 999 plan, while putting a 9% tax on food, clothing and medical care, does away with any estate tax, and all capital gains taxes.
That’s a real load off the minds of the working poor.
| 79 |
Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut Thu, Oct 13, 2011 11:01:13am |
re: #77 Moodsman
Huntsman has no chance. And he’s scary too. He wants 0% tax on unearned income. He’s actually just as extreme as Cain economically.
| 80 |
Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut Thu, Oct 13, 2011 11:02:53am |
re: #78 Decatur Deb
I can’t believe the balls of the GOP, during a time of corporate profits and personal suffering, to seriously advocate zero taxes on unearned income.
It is insane. It is unbelievably extremist. It rivals ‘end the fed’ for economic blathering stupidity.
| 81 |
Political Atheist Thu, Oct 13, 2011 11:03:22am |
re: #79 Obdicut
And Huntsman is far less likely to get that through if elected. All these guys have grand plans that fail the reality test, like closing Gitmo. While he may seem as extreme as Cain top you I think Cain is further out on that limb.
| 82 |
Stormageddon, Dark Lord of All Thu, Oct 13, 2011 11:03:32am |
re: #47 goddamnedfrank
In case anyone thinks I’m making this up:
People should look at his plan. There’s no exception for food, clothing, rent/housing, medical expenses (emergency or otherwise), services, etc. The only sales that get a break are used goods. It’s goddamned insanity.
We can go one step further. I imagine all investing won’t have the sales tax applied. Also, if a company sells a product to another company, will the sales tax be applied along the entire chain? If not, what’s to prevent a sneaky person from forming their own company to purchase things for their company and not pay the sales tax.
Add in the fun and games of taxing ‘services’. If I get a haircut, am I employing that person for the period of time it takes to cut my hair? How about a contract worker? is my payment to them taxable as a service? Taken to the extreme, what’s to prevent the government from viewing an employee as a service to the employing company? Which would imply that the salary would also be subject to the sale tax.
Where is the distinction? and how would you enforce the sales tax on services? How many lawyers and policemen would be needed just to keep tabs on the people who will cheat to avoid the taxes?
I’m not even going to talk about the regressive nature of the tax, That’s a known issue, though I suspect the creators think of it as by design rather than a flaw.
| 83 |
Amory Blaine Thu, Oct 13, 2011 11:03:57am |
re: #80 Obdicut
I can’t believe the balls of the GOP, during a time of corporate profits and personal suffering, to seriously advocate zero taxes on unearned income.
It is insane. It is unbelievably extremist. It rivals ‘end the fed’ for economic blathering stupidity.
999 fits so well on a bumper sticker though…
| 85 |
leftynyc Thu, Oct 13, 2011 11:05:03am |
re: #12 Killgore Trout
Mitt could have a chance in the general election even with the fractured support. Obama’s approval ratings are pretty bad and his base seems more interested in Marxist rallies and drum circles than getting him reelected. A 3rd party Tea Partier would easily swing things in Obama’s favor.
Marxist rallies and drum circles? I didn’t think anybody here listened to Beck. My mistake.
| 86 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Thu, Oct 13, 2011 11:05:20am |
re: #83 Amory Blaine
999 fits so well on a bumper sticker though…
Also on one’s temple or in the webbing between the thumb and forefinger.
///
| 87 |
Feline Fearless Leader Thu, Oct 13, 2011 11:05:46am |
| 88 |
Gus Thu, Oct 13, 2011 11:05:52am |
re: #76 wlewisiii
But if OWS helps the mass of Americans to understand the GOP obstructionism that has been intentionally keeping the economy crappy? That’s it’s real potential. And as the 99% meme takes hold I hope people will see that as well.
The Dems aren’t very much better but just about anything is better than the GOP right now.
Which could be a positive outcome for the Democrats through OWS. Then it would be incumbent upon the Dem operatives to make some inroads to some of the OWS movement. But. I think by Winter OWS will be rather dormant due to the cold and freezing temperatures. In any event OWS and Obama are not one and the same. People have been unhappy with the way things have been going economically long before OWS showed up.
I could ask where have Reid and Pelosi been on the PR front regarding the Republican refusal to pass Obama’s jobs/tax bill. They still need to be more up front and provide more energy for the Democrats. But that’s a whole other story considering their natural tendency towards sonambulating rhetoric due to their septuagenarian states.
| 89 |
makeitstop Thu, Oct 13, 2011 11:05:52am |
re: #80 Obdicut
I can’t believe the balls of the GOP, during a time of corporate profits and personal suffering, to seriously advocate zero taxes on unearned income.
It is insane. It is unbelievably extremist. It rivals ‘end the fed’ for economic blathering stupidity.
Hey, get a load of the shitwagon they’re rolling out today.
In an apparent answer to the White House’s jobs proposal, Senate Republicans are planning to unveil what they call the “Real American Jobs Act.”
The bill lays out a distinctly conservative vision for the U.S. economy that would lower tax rates for individuals and businesses, pursue free trade, and roll back environmental regulations while expanding domestic energy production. To top it off, Republicans would seek to pass a balanced-budget amendment to the Constitution, Politico reports.
Leading the charge are Sens. Rob Portman (R-OH), Rand Paul (R-KY) and John McCain (R-AZ). On Wednesday, Paul sounded a confident note, saying it was “unfair” for the White House to claim the GOP lacked a jobs plan.
Tax cuts, shipping more jobs overseas, more pollution, ‘drill here wherever, drill now.’
Isn’t this Michele Bachmann’s plan with more sponsors?
| 90 |
Stormageddon, Dark Lord of All Thu, Oct 13, 2011 11:06:10am |
re: #72 wrenchwench
Having the execrable Steve Sailer on his blogroll goes beyond ‘gaffe’. I suspect he subtly grinds his ax with every article he writes.
I usually read Weigel at Slate. People actually look at someone’s blogroll? Man, I need to update mine then… ;)
| 91 |
Decatur Deb Thu, Oct 13, 2011 11:06:26am |
| 92 |
wrenchwench Thu, Oct 13, 2011 11:07:10am |
| 93 |
Talking Point Detective Thu, Oct 13, 2011 11:07:23am |
re: #80 Obdicut
I can’t believe the balls of the GOP, during a time of corporate profits and personal suffering, to seriously advocate zero taxes on unearned income.
It is insane. It is unbelievably extremist. It rivals ‘end the fed’ for economic blathering stupidity.
I doubt Cain would ever get the nomination, and I doubt that Romney would advocate so extreme a plan.
The problem is that when lunatics like this get a national stage, they move the whole discussion/electorate towards the rightwing extreme. It will be interesting to see what Romney does if/once he gets the nomination. Will he move further to the right to ensure the lunatic fringe vote at the possible expense of independent votes? I suspect not - and that he’ll bank on Obama-hatred to carry the day with the Tea Partiers.
| 94 |
Simply Sarah Thu, Oct 13, 2011 11:07:47am |
re: #60 thatthatisis
So few people have really looked into Cain’s 999 plan. He says it “broadens the base”, and that’s why he can reduce rates and collect the same total tax revenue.
That really boils down to increasing the federal taxes on people making $20 and $30 thousand a year, while decreasing the taxes on kagillionaires.
And Social Security? Part of his plan includes a suggestion that you go to the city and state governments (oh yeah - like they’re rolling in money), and beg from your local church.
Sign me up //
Social Security also brings another group 999 would absolutely hammer: Anyone living on a fixed income/savings/etc. or, really, anyone who takes in so little money that they don’t pay much/anything in taxes currently and/or who has already paid taxes on the money they’re living off of.
| 95 |
Feline Fearless Leader Thu, Oct 13, 2011 11:08:47am |
re: #88 Gus 802
Which could be a positive outcome for the Democrats through OWS. Then it would be incumbent upon the Dem operatives to make some inroads to some of the OWS movement. But. I think by Winter OWS will be rather dormant due to the cold and freezing temperatures. In any event OWS and Obama are not one and the same. People have been unhappy with the way things have been going economically long before OWS showed up.
I expect Occupy: Acapulco And Occupy: San Diego to kick off in another month when NYC gets colder. Maybe even Occupy: Rio de Janeiro…
;)
| 96 |
Single-handed sailor Thu, Oct 13, 2011 11:09:40am |
Bachmann, not realizing taxes are lower than they’ve ever been in modern history, says we should go back to the good old days of Regan Era tax rates.
| 97 |
Goosestepping Obama Tina Brown Thu, Oct 13, 2011 11:10:17am |
re: #80 Obdicut
I don’t believe the GOP has balls. I think they have a base where Super Jesus has successfully been blended with Ayn Rand. So they know that nothing they say anymore is too extreme.
| 98 |
Gus Thu, Oct 13, 2011 11:11:36am |
Speaking of money. I better get to work. For once. Later folks.
Watch out for them Marxists! //
| 100 |
Amory Blaine Thu, Oct 13, 2011 11:12:46am |
re: #98 Gus 802
Speaking of money. I better get to work. For once. Later folks.
Watch out for them Marxists! //
On your way to the People’s factory #999 to make widgets for the state?
;) Have a good day!!
| 101 |
Moodsman Thu, Oct 13, 2011 11:12:56am |
re: #79 Obdicut
Huntsman has no chance…. He’s actually just as extreme as Cain economically.
Don’t count him out just yet. It could boil down to Romney, Perry and Huntsman during the actual elections, once Cain, Bachman and the others are laughed out of the system.
But you are probably correct… the concept of a Republican nominee that is literate, pro-choice, pro-science, knowledgeable about issues, is fairly hard to picture in a “We want a Theocracy” environment.
| 102 |
Decatur Deb Thu, Oct 13, 2011 11:14:08am |
re: #101 Moodsman
Don’t count him out just yet. It could boil down to Romney, Perry and Huntsman during the actual elections, once Cain, Bachman and the others are laughed out of the system.
But you are probably correct… the concept of a Republican nominee that is literate, pro-choice, pro-science, knowledgeable about issues, is fairly hard to picture in a “We want a Theocracy” environment.
They might want theocracy, but not THAT theocracy.
| 103 |
Goosestepping Obama Tina Brown Thu, Oct 13, 2011 11:14:19am |
re: #89 makeitstop
When they say stuff like “lower tax rates for individuals and businesses” i would really appreciate it if they were more specific.
| 104 |
thatthatisis Thu, Oct 13, 2011 11:14:20am |
| 105 |
makeitstop Thu, Oct 13, 2011 11:14:51am |
Hahaha….Bachmann.
“For my tax plan, I take a page out of one of my great economists that I admire, Ronald Reagan,” Bachmann boasted. “And under my tax plan I want to adopt the Reagan tax plan. It brought the economic miracle of the 1980s. Why not go with what works? I want to reinstitute the Reagan tax model from the 1980s.”
However, as has been previously documented, taxes were higher during the Reagan years than they are now — both in terms of the top income tax rate (for all but the final year of the Reagan presidency), and in terms of the overall tax burden.
The Derp is endless.
| 106 |
Feline Fearless Leader Thu, Oct 13, 2011 11:16:17am |
| 107 |
Achilles Tang Thu, Oct 13, 2011 11:20:06am |
re: #82 bloodstar
We can go one step further. I imagine all investing won’t have the sales tax applied. Also, if a company sells a product to another company, will the sales tax be applied along the entire chain? If not, what’s to prevent a sneaky person from forming their own company to purchase things for their company and not pay the sales tax.
Nothing if they are clever. They can and do that now with foreign corporations. Sell at cost for export. Then sell somewhere else for profit, or buy it back at a higher price and resell at minimal profit, while leaving the real profit in another country, say a free trade zone in Dubai.
| 108 |
engineer cat Thu, Oct 13, 2011 11:24:52am |
senate republicans submitting their ‘strength through joy’ bill, uh, i mean ‘jobs through growth’ bill
it’s based on the principle that tax cuts are jobs, and that every time an environmental regulation is killed a free market fairy gets its wings
| 109 |
HappyWarrior Thu, Oct 13, 2011 11:27:10am |
re: #4 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
Jeez Herman then why do you go around acting like it’s the solution to all of our economic problems. Guy is a craptastic candidate. At least Romney knows what he’s doing. It may suck but he has a plan to get it implemented.
| 110 |
engineer cat Thu, Oct 13, 2011 11:31:49am |
Cain: ‘I Have No Idea’ How My 999 Plan Would Work
kill social security in the next five minutes and you get $5 off your next war?
| 111 |
sagehen Thu, Oct 13, 2011 11:35:06am |
| 112 |
Moodsman Thu, Oct 13, 2011 11:40:19am |
re: #109 HappyWarrior
Jeez Herman then why do you go around acting like it’s the solution to all of our economic problems. Guy is a craptastic candidate. At least Romney knows what he’s doing. It may suck but he has a plan to get it implemented.
Why isn’t the plan 7-8-9 or 9-8-7 or 6-8-10 or whatever actually works?
Coming up with a “one number fits all” solution in itself shows that it is not a realistic solution based on real numbers.
| 113 |
lawhawk Thu, Oct 13, 2011 11:59:33am |
re: #105 makeitstop
Clueless about the tax code and tax policies - then or now. And she was a tax lawyer for the IRS no less. Sheesh.
| 114 |
Lidane Thu, Oct 13, 2011 3:45:44pm |
re: #2 jamesfirecat
“Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake.”
—-Napoleon Bonaparte
Heh. That’s about right.
Romney doesn’t stand a chance of winning the nomination. There’s too much distrust and antipathy towards him. Cain would be hilariously out of his depth, but he’s leading.
The GOP is seriously looking like they’re going to just hand the nomination to someone who will never win. It’s like they’re writing off 2012 and aiming for 2016.
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