Texas DMV Considers Issuing Confederate Flag License Plate

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Wingnuts • Views: 35,414

With any luck, this is the last generation of “Sons of the Confederate Veterans” still confused about who won the Civil War — and why: Texas considers Confederate flag license plate.

HOUSTON — Texas is considering a specialty license plate that would feature the Confederate flag. The idea is to honor Texans who fought in the Civil War, but some people say they are offended by the idea.

Imagine that.

Meanwhile, the Texas Department of Motor Vehicles is actually considering the approval of an objectively pro-slavery license plate:

The Texas Department of Motor Vehicles say you can email the agency with comments and suggestions at www.txdmv.gov. Click on “email us” and select the Vehicle and Title Registration from the drop down box.

UPDATE at 10/22/11 7:29:10 pm

Another license plate design under consideration by the Texas DMV:

Jump to bottom

893 comments
1 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 6:59:28pm

I do not understand the lack of embarrassment about having fought to defend slavery.

2 Obdicut  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 6:59:37pm

Why not just "Sons of Veterans of the Civil War"?

Yeah, I know the answer to that.

3 freetoken  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 7:00:46pm

re: #1 EmmmieG

I do not understand the lack of embarrassment about having fought to defend slavery.

It's never a problem if you're not one of the victims.

4 Kragar  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 7:00:47pm

re: #1 EmmmieG

I do not understand the lack of embarrassment about having fought to defend slavery.

STATES RIGHTS!!!
/

5 PhillyPretzel  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 7:02:00pm

How about an outline of the Alamo? Or the Texas State Flag?

6 jaunte  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 7:02:05pm

From the Texas Observer:
Places Not to Drive with a Confederate License Plate

"The Confederacy was a separatist government that waged war against the United States, lost, and was forced to disband. Can you imagine Texas honoring any other government that went to war with the United States by putting that government’s flag on a Texas license plate? Would we put the Mexican flag on a Texas license plate? The Mexican flag used to fly over Texas, too. Something tells me the very same people who are so concerned with preserving Southern heritage would be the first to take up arms against the idea of the state printing a Mexican flag on a license plate to honor Mexican heritage."

7 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 7:02:44pm

Steers and Queers.
/

8 PhillyPretzel  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 7:03:04pm

re: #7 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

ROFL

9 Ben G. Hazi  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 7:03:57pm

re: #2 Obdicut

Why not just "Sons of Veterans of the Civil War"?

Yeah, I know the answer to that.

Because they'd have to include them damn Yankees and that ain't happening with those who are or have gone full retard craving those antebellum days.

Image: never_go_full_retard1.jpg

10 PhillyPretzel  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 7:04:02pm

How about a beautiful yellow rose? Or some blue bonnets?

11 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 7:04:25pm

re: #5 PhillyPretzel

How about an outline of the Alamo? Or the Texas State Flag?

Mexicans died. What's not to love!?!?

12 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 7:04:42pm

re: #1 EmmmieG

I do not understand the lack of embarrassment about having fought to defend slavery.

BECAUSE IT WAS NEVER ABOUT SLAVERY IT WAS ABOUT THE RIGHTS OF THE STATES NOT TO BE UNDER THE UNFAIR BURDEN OF TARIFFS AND TAXES AND CHRISTIANITY WAS ALSO A FACTOR AND TO DEFEND THE GENTLE SOUTHERN BELLES SEE GONE WITH THE WIND AND ALSO THERE WERE BLACK CONFEDERATES AND SLAVERY WAS NOT THAT BAD AT ALL AND THE NORTHENERS WERE DECADENT LIBS GHAR ABRAHAM LINCOLN WHAR WAS WAHR CRIMINALLBRL WHARL GHARB WARGHARBL WHARGARBL GHARWAHRBL

13 HappyWarrior  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 7:05:05pm

re: #1 EmmmieG

I do not understand the lack of embarrassment about having fought to defend slavery.

I agree but they don't see it that way. It embarrasses me as a southerner that we have many who think the CSA was this great thing. It sucked. And I am glad my only civil war relative fought for the Union.

14 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 7:05:09pm

re: #1 EmmmieG

It was about "State's Rights", silly.

15 nines09  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 7:05:24pm

So whats the criteria? Proof you was; A= Slave owner. B=Wanna be slave owner. C=Working for a slave owner. D=Wish you had slaves or working for a wanna be or real slave owner. OR; E= Staunch Tea Party Patriot who steadfastly defended states rights over big government intervention and Federal Socialism.

16 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 7:05:36pm

re: #10 PhillyPretzel

How about a beautiful yellow rose? Or some blue bonnets?

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

17 jaunte  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 7:05:48pm

Now throwbacks can pretend to be in favor of secession while enjoying the protections afforded citizens of the full United States.

18 Ben G. Hazi  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 7:06:33pm

re: #7 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Steers and Queers.
/

Right or wrong, R. Lee Ermey was the only choice for GSgt. Hartman in Full Metal Jacket...

19 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 7:06:34pm

Andrew Luck's helmet appears to have many stickers upon it.

20 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 7:06:47pm

Yeah, it was about states rights. Who can forget the furious debates about regulations on cabbage sales?

21 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 7:07:19pm

re: #18 talon_262

Ya think?!?!

Made Sgt. Carter appear to be a Village Person.

22 Achilles Tang  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 7:07:48pm

Good evening from my new IPad. A birthday present from my kids. However I'm still learning the new conventions, and a first thing I notice is that some videos need flash player and it says not available on the IPad.

Can this be right?

23 nines09  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 7:08:59pm

re: #22 Naso Tang

No flash on Apple products.

24 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 7:09:22pm

re: #22 Naso Tang

Good evening from my new IPad. A birthday present from my kids. However I'm still learning the new conventions, and a first thing I notice is that some videos need flash player and it says not available on the IPad.

Can this be right?

Welcome to the brave new world of the Apple products. No pr0n for you! /

25 jaunte  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 7:10:19pm

re: #22 Naso Tang

not available on the IPad.

Discussion here:
[Link: discussions.apple.com...]

26 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 7:10:35pm

re: #22 Naso Tang

You have to wait for i flash

27 Ben G. Hazi  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 7:10:48pm

re: #22 Naso Tang

Good evening from my new IPad. A birthday present from my kids. However I'm still learning the new conventions, and a first thing I notice is that some videos need flash player and it says not available on the IPad.

Can this be right?

Adobe Flash on iPads and iPhones is like Cain's tax plan:
NEIN NEIN NEIN

;-p

28 Lidane  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 7:11:04pm

It's worth noting that Texas offers over 100 different designs for license plates, including the Come and Take It flag and the Gadsden flag:

[Link: www.myplates.com...]

Just look under Texas Themes for both flags. The Confederate one wouldn't be anything out of character.

29 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 7:11:11pm

re: #26 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

You have to wait for the I Flash

Is that Steve?

/too soon?

30 prairiefire  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 7:11:23pm

I do know that Dallas is excited about the baseball game tonight.

31 Lidane  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 7:12:28pm

re: #5 PhillyPretzel

How about an outline of the Alamo? Or the Texas State Flag?

There are tons of those. Hell, if you're so inclined, you can even get plates for Oklahoma University, Purdue, and other colleges here.

32 nines09  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 7:12:37pm

re: #22 Naso Tang

If it's new get the latest upgrades. I'm asssuming you have the ipad2. If you do, do this.

33 PhillyPretzel  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 7:14:07pm

re: #31 Lidane

I know. In PA I can get my alma mater, LaSalle University, on a license plate.

34 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 7:14:59pm

I could get a salmon. If I wanted to pay more. The tree is fine.

35 Achilles Tang  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 7:15:08pm

Great! I don't know why I thought this was 2011//

I wish I could ask Jobs what he was thinking Apple achieved by pissing me off within the first hour.

36 Achilles Tang  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 7:18:43pm

re: #32 nines09

If it's new get the latest upgrades. I'm asssuming you have the ipad2. If you do, do this.

Afraid not. My daughter got the Ipad2. I'm now old enough to start getting hand me downs again, but not complaining.

37 nines09  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 7:22:53pm

re: #36 Naso Tang

You may be able to use the upgrade on yours. It doesn't cost anything. Ask your daughter about it if she knows. Check it out. You will need a pc/laptop to do it.

38 researchok  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 7:23:41pm

I would say a far bigger issue are the 'Stars and Bars' that are found on some state flags.

39 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 7:24:51pm

re: #34 EmmmieG

There a a gazillion options. Me? I think I'm one of the 15 people left in VA with the standard (no extra charge) plate.

RON PAUL!!!

40 Ben G. Hazi  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 7:26:51pm

re: #28 Lidane

It's worth noting that Texas offers over 100 different designs for license plates, including the Come and Take It flag and the Gadsden flag:

[Link: www.myplates.com...]

Just look under Texas Themes for both flags. The Confederate one wouldn't be anything out of character.

Tennessee (my state) also offers a SCV plate among the umpteen plate the DMV offers:
Specialty License Plates - Clubs/Organizations

and a Choose Life plate:
Specialty License Plates - Miscellaneous

As much as I want to get uptight about this issue with the license plate, I just can't. Two things keep me from going there: a) whoever gets those plates is advertising to me that they're a fucking throwback cretin (so I know to avoid them) and b) usually about half of the registration fee out of every specialty plate, over and above what the state, cities, and counties charge for a normal registration, goes to the TN Arts Commission (the organization that sponsors the plate gets the rest, typically about $15 or so per plate, though some orgs have deals that give them almost all of the specialty fee, such as the HBCU fraternity/sorority plates [that goes into a fund to benefit HBCUs in the state]).

41 OhNoZombies!  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 7:28:26pm

Aaah the Confederacy. The glory days of the Antebellum, when one could set oneself upon one's veranda and sip upon a mint julep. Where men were lords of the manah, and delicate ladies would have to be careful, lest the catch the vaypuhs. [whispers] And certain others knew their place.
//
It's like that guy who's best days were in high school, but now he's just a schmuck like everyone else, so everytime you bump into him at the grocery store, he reminisces about stuff you've tried to forget.

42 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 7:28:26pm

This guy will appreciate this plate:

43 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 7:29:05pm

re: #40 talon_262

Tennessee (my state) also offers a SCV plate among the umpteen plate the DMV offers:
Specialty License Plates - Clubs/Organizations

and a Choose Life plate:
Specialty License Plates - Miscellaneous

As much as I want to get uptight about this issue with the license plate, I just can't. Two things keep me from going there: a) whoever gets those plates is advertising to me that they're a fucking throwback cretin (so I know to avoid them) and b) a bit more than half of the registration fee out of every specialty plate, over and above what the state, cities, and counties charge for a normal registration, goes to the TN Arts Commission (the organization that sponsors the plate gets the rest, typically about $15 or so per plate).

I see you can get a Masonic plate.

This will come in handy when the conspiracy finally surfaces.

44 HappyWarrior  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 7:31:06pm

re: #41 OhNoZombies!

Aaah the Confederacy. The glory days of the Antebellum, when one could set oneself upon one's veranda and sip upon a mint julep. Where men were lords of the manah, and delicate ladies would have to be careful, lest the catch the vaypuhs. [whispers] And certain others knew their place.
//
It's like that guy who's best days were in high school, but now he's just a schmuck like everyone else, so everytime you bump into him at the grocery store, he reminisces about stuff you've tried to forget.

Heh nice one. Really the people who glamorize the old Confederacy are dumb especially poor ones. Honestly, poor whites should have been among the biggest opponents of the CSA because the plantation owners didn't give a shit about them and just saw them as fresh bodies to fight their war.

45 Achilles Tang  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 7:33:54pm

re: #37 nines09

You may be able to use the upgrade on yours. It doesn't cost anything. Ask your daughter about it if she knows. Check it out. You will need a pc/laptop to do it.

I'll check into it. Thanks. However looking into it a bit, I am still amazed that there is a whole set of common video standard that Apple hasn't made a converter for just because the Flash software is substandard.

46 Ben G. Hazi  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 7:35:24pm

re: #43 EmmmieG

I see you can get a Masonic plate.

This will come in handy when the conspiracy finally surfaces.

As an Austin Peay alumnus, I have this plate myself:
Image: apsu.jpg

A few years ago, the BSA councils here in the state organized a campaign to get a BSA plate, but we couldn't meet the numbers the state needed to put it in the catalog at the time (I think it was at least 5000 firm committals, backed with a fee).

47 OhNoZombies!  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 7:39:11pm

re: #44 HappyWarrior

My southern grandparents told me that it's because the poor whites were always fed the line that at least they were better than a -- well you know. That way they wouldn't have to worry about the blacks and whites teaming up against them. Their poverty could be overcome by hard work etc..
Hmmm, the more things change, the more they stay the same...

48 bubbanelson  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 7:39:36pm

re: #44 HappyWarrior

Many poor Southerners were ScotsIrish of Appalachia that were against the Feds

49 darthstar  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 7:40:43pm

I made a pumpkin pie that looks just like Satan. Yes, it's that good.

50 William Barnett-Lewis  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 7:40:55pm

re: #18 talon_262

Right or wrong, R. Lee Ermey was the only choice for GSgt. Hartman in Full Metal Jacket...

Always preferred Louis Gossett, Jr.'s Gunnery Sergeant Emil Foley as he reminds me of the real DI"s I've known.

51 Ben G. Hazi  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 7:43:34pm

re: #50 wlewisiii

Always preferred Louis Gossett, Jr.'s Gunnery Sergeant Emil Foley as he reminds me of the real DI"s I've known.

R. Lee's got that "in-your-face" rep going on, while Louis Gossett Jr. got that "quiet storm" vibe (though he can go in R. Lee's direction if need be, just not as profane).

Love Louis Gossett Jr....

52 freetoken  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 7:52:32pm
53 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 7:57:31pm

re: #52 freetoken

Happy Birthday, Earth!

Did creation begin 6,015 years ago tonight?

Then this door was obviously created by one of Adam's children.

54 Velvet Elvis  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 7:58:39pm

Was Texas even part of the confederacy? I don't think they were.

55 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 7:59:08pm

re: #54 Conservative Moonbat

Was Texas even part of the confederacy? I don't think they were.

Yes, they were.

56 Velvet Elvis  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 7:59:29pm

re: #54 Conservative Moonbat

Was Texas even part of the confederacy? I don't think they were.

My bad, they were.

57 Velvet Elvis  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 8:01:07pm

re: #55 EmmmieG

Yes, they were.

Right, just no major battles were fought there.

58 Atlas Fails  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 8:01:34pm

re: #54 Conservative Moonbat

Was Texas even part of the confederacy? I don't think they were.

I'm pretty sure it was. I have family in Texas and ancestors who fought on both sides of the Civil War (I think), and I've never felt the urge celebrate the fact that one of my distant ancestors fought so rich people could keep owning slaves.

Must be a cultural thing.

60 OhNoZombies!  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 8:05:11pm

I've been doing a little research on my family history in Colfax, LA. My grandma's maiden name was Hadnot, and I stumbled across this:

Colfax Riot

The bloodiest single instance of racial carnage in the Reconstruction era, the Colfax massacre taught many lessons, including the lengths to which some opponents of Reconstruction would go to regain their accustomed authority. Among blacks in Louisiana, the incident was long remembered as proof that in any large confrontation, they stood at a fatal disadvantage. "The organization against them is too strong. ..." Louisiana black teacher and Reconstruction legislator John G. Lewis later remarked. "They attempted [armed self-defense] in Colfax. The result was that on Easter Sunday of 1873, when the sun went down that night, it went down on the corpses of two hundred and eighty negroes."[1]

If anyone decides to read the whole thing, an interesting note:
My great-grandfather, a black man born around 1879, was named James Hadnot.

61 Obdicut  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 8:05:30pm
62 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 8:06:39pm

re: #58 Atlas Fails

I'm pretty sure it was. I have family in Texas and ancestors who fought on both sides of the Civil War (I think), and I've never felt the urge celebrate the fact that one of my distant ancestors fought so rich people could keep owning slaves.

Must be a cultural thing.

Sam Houston resigned his position as governor over it. He wasn't a confederate, and knew that the South would lose.

63 HappyWarrior  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 8:06:59pm

re: #58 Atlas Fails

I'm pretty sure it was. I have family in Texas and ancestors who fought on both sides of the Civil War (I think), and I've never felt the urge celebrate the fact that one of my distant ancestors fought so rich people could keep owning slaves.

Must be a cultural thing.

The weirdest thing here in Virginia is two of our biggest panderers to Confederate crap have been guys with Northern roots and no Confederate ties that I know of. George Allen's dad was from Michigan and his mom was from Tunisia. Bob McDonnell whom had gotten a lot of flack for the Confederate History Month? He's a Philly guy. My only relative was a German immigrant who fought for a regiment based out of Pennsylvania. The rest were still either in Germany, Ireland, and Eastern Europe.

64 nines09  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 8:07:42pm

re: #45 Naso Tang

The explanation I heard about flash was it was easily corrupted, or had too many holes, so to speak. Who knows? In any case, do the snyc and upgrade the player then go for the ios5. From a short surf, some things are not available but some are on a ipad1. Mine too was a Bday present and it's a nice plaything/tool. Charles has his app for it also along with a plethora of usefull FREE things in the iTunes app store. Dig in and have fun.

65 The Questionable Timing of a Flea  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 8:08:01pm

re: #43 EmmmieG

I see you can get a Masonic plate.

This will come in handy when the conspiracy finally surfaces.

Masonic plates already exist; you're just not deep enough an initiate to recognize them as such.

66 moderatelyradicalliberal  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 8:08:41pm

I want a John Brown license plate.

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

Or Nat Turner

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

67 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 8:08:53pm

fnord

68 Atlas Fails  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 8:10:14pm

It's kind of a source of family shame that we had ancestors who fought for the Confederacy. Being the history geek that I am though, I've always found it kind of cool to be able to trace my heritage to soldiers on both sides. Still, I don't have any delusions about noble Southern warriors defending their homeland; they fought for slavery. Why anyone would want to celebrate this is beyond me.

69 Interesting Times  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 8:10:16pm

Just in case...duck and cover:

BreakingNews Breaking News
Update: Falling satellite ROSAT re-enters Earth's atmosphere, no confirmation of debris - DLR bit.ly/nO3FHg

70 HappyWarrior  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 8:10:27pm

re: #66 moderatelyradicalliberal

I want a John Brown license plate.

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

Or Nat Turner

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

You ever been to Harper's Ferry where Brown had his famous raid? Cool little town. A buddy of mine and another one rented a place in the mountains to celebrate the one's going away party for AmeriCorps and it was one of the most awesome parties I went to.

71 Atlas Fails  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 8:12:58pm

re: #66 moderatelyradicalliberal

I want a John Brown license plate.

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

Or Nat Turner

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

What a fascinating figure John Brown is. He raises the question: is terrorism ever justifiable? I still don't know what to make of him.

72 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 8:14:14pm

Well, you know how I have to start out on a thread with this subject:

73 Obdicut  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 8:15:21pm

re: #68 Atlas Fails

It's kind of a source of family shame that we had ancestors who fought for the Confederacy. Being the history geek that I am though, I've always found it kind of cool to be able to trace my heritage to soldiers on both sides. Still, I don't have any delusions about noble Southern warriors defending their homeland; they fought for slavery. Why anyone would want to celebrate this is beyond me.

One one side of my family, I have New Englanders who fought for the Union.

On the other side, I have my ancestors out West, who apparently spent the war selling really crappy merchandise to the Confederacy and suing some Confederate Colonel for some reason that's never been made manifest. I don't think it helped his court case that my great-great-grandfather's nickname was "Cheater". That's back when they were pretending to be Armenian.

I think both sides did their part.

74 HappyWarrior  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 8:15:30pm

re: #71 Atlas Fails

What a fascinating figure John Brown is. He raising the question: is terrorism ever justifiable? I still don't know what to make of him.

It's real tough honestly since he did apparently butcher unarmed slavery activists and I think the first victim of his raid was a free black man. So yeah he has a complicated legacy to me too. the people who decry Brown the loudest though are probably the same who think General Forrest was a hero though.

75 theheat  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 8:16:12pm

Why not join the Confederate and Christian license plate ideas and just add a line on the bottom that says

RACISTS 4 JESUS

And then add some Texas stars and a bunch of sparkly shit.

76 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 8:16:17pm

re: #66 moderatelyradicalliberal

Ick. Murderous fanatics, both of them. They both richly earned their hangings. Nat Turner actually damaged to cause of abolition, and Browns raid on Harper's Ferry made the Civil War a certainty.

77 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 8:16:20pm

re: #66 moderatelyradicalliberal

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

Hello?

Historian Stephen B. Oates notes that Nat Turner had ordered his followers to "kill all the white people," including women and children. The rebels killed approximately 60 white men, women, and children. Most were hacked to death with axes, stabbed, or bludgeoned. The most numerous casualties were children. In one instance, Turner and his insurgents stopped at the house of Levi Waller where they killed him, his wife, and children. Ten of the children were decapitated and their headless bodies piled in the front yard.[10]

78 Obdicut  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 8:16:35pm

re: #73 Obdicut

Oh, and they won the court case after the war, by getting the location of the trial moved to Illinois where the judge & jury were of the opinion "Fuck the Confederate Colonel".

79 Obdicut  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 8:17:26pm

re: #77 Sergey Romanov

I read it is an equivalently abhorrent license plate; as in, it would be abominable to celebrate Turner's murders, so it's abominable to celebrate the murder of blacks that occurred under the Confederacy.

80 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 8:18:03pm

re: #79 Obdicut

Well, I sho hope so.

81 moderatelyradicalliberal  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 8:18:06pm

re: #71 Atlas Fails

What a fascinating figure John Brown is. He raises the question: is terrorism ever justifiable? I still don't know what to make of him.

Well, I think a better question would be, does it ever really work? What John Brown wanted to happen after Harper's Ferry, a mass uprising of slaves, didn't happen but he was right about slavery only coming to an end with bloodshed. There was no way out of that.

82 Atlas Fails  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 8:18:25pm

re: #66 moderatelyradicalliberal

I want a John Brown license plate.

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

Or Nat Turner

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

Wanna piss off a redneck?

83 HappyWarrior  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 8:20:10pm

I've said it before but I love having one of the most badass union regiment's emblem tattooed on my right shoulder even if my Irish relations were still in Galway when the war happened. Meagher is a hero of mine. both as an Irish patriot and leader of Irishmen during the war.

84 Obdicut  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 8:20:17pm

re: #81 moderatelyradicalliberal

I think the South could have given up slavery without bloodshed, or at least, without a war. I don't think it was inevitable.

85 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 8:20:59pm

I want plates commemorating the War of Jenkin's Ear.

If I can't have that, I want one commemorating the War of Griffin's Pig. It is a little closer to home.

86 moderatelyradicalliberal  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 8:21:08pm

re: #76 Dark_Falcon

Ick. Murderous fanatics, both of them. They both richly earned their hangings. Nat Turner actually damaged to cause of abolition, and Browns raid on Harper's Ferry made the Civil War a certainty.

You've got to be kidding me? Southerners being unwilling to free there slaves made the Civil War a certainty. I guess you think they were going to until Brown and Turner turned to violence to end an institution that showed absolutely no sign of ending anytime soon or in a peaceful manner.

87 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 8:22:11pm

re: #79 Obdicut

Hmm.

88 Obdicut  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 8:22:36pm

re: #76 Dark_Falcon

Ick. Murderous fanatics, both of them. They both richly earned their hangings. Nat Turner actually damaged to cause of abolition, and Browns raid on Harper's Ferry made the Civil War a certainty.

Turner gave the Southerners an excuse to enact harsher laws, not an actual cause.

And the South convinced itself of the necessity of war. Nobody else did that for them.

89 moderatelyradicalliberal  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 8:22:49pm

re: #84 Obdicut

I think the South could have given up slavery without bloodshed, or at least, without a war. I don't think it was inevitable.

When? They didn't give up Jim Crow without bloodshed during the 1950s and 1960s.

90 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 8:23:29pm

re: #86 moderatelyradicalliberal

So you do actually admire the child-murdering terrorist Turner?

91 Obdicut  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 8:23:50pm

re: #89 moderatelyradicalliberal

When? They didn't give up Jim Crow without bloodshed during the 1950s and 1960s.

I just mean that human beings in other places gave up slavery without bloodshed, so the Southerners could have, as well.

92 HappyWarrior  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 8:24:09pm

I say this as a southerner but I think the south was looking for any excuse to secede. The election of Lincoln gave them that excuse even if Lincoln was far from the biggest abolitionist. They wanted an excuse.

93 Atlas Fails  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 8:24:21pm

re: #84 Obdicut

I think the South could have given up slavery without bloodshed, or at least, without a war. I don't think it was inevitable.

I don't know, a lot of the South had been bitching about the industrialized North since the American System and Andrew Jackson's "Tariff of Abominations." Slavery was the central issue, and Lincoln's election sealed the deal for secession, but I think the South was just looking for an excuse at that point.

94 moderatelyradicalliberal  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 8:24:49pm

re: #82 Atlas Fails

Wanna piss off a redneck?

That's pretty awesome> How about General Sherman saying "Don't make me come back down there".

95 moderatelyradicalliberal  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 8:25:18pm

re: #91 Obdicut

I just mean that human beings in other places gave up slavery without bloodshed, so the Southerners could have, as well.

True, it was possible, but they didn't.

96 Atlas Fails  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 8:25:24pm

re: #92 HappyWarrior

I say this as a southerner but I think the south was looking for any excuse to secede. The election of Lincoln gave them that excuse even if Lincoln was far from the biggest abolitionist. They wanted an excuse.

SHIT. Beat me to it.

97 Obdicut  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 8:25:39pm

re: #87 Sergey Romanov

Well, that's a wrong person to hold up as a hero, especially when there's so many people who fought for liberty in the Civil War without making it murder and terrorism.

However, without in any way excusing Turner's murders, I will say it's a lot easier for me to understand a slave rebelling and killing those in the society that enslaved him, than it is for me to understand the mind of a man who'd make someone a slave.

98 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 8:25:41pm

As usual, I was on the wrong thread.

repost from downstairs:

Just finished watching Lost in Detention from the thread below.

I'm disgusted with Congress. Unthinkable human rights violations ON US SOIL. Bush II had the only workable plan and even Obama can't accomplish it because of CONGRESS.

I am so disgusted.

How are you this evening?

99 palomino  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 8:25:42pm

I spent the first 22 years of my life in Texas, growing up in Houston, then going to college in San Antonio. It was a great place to grow up in some ways, but it never ceases to embarass me.

100 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 8:27:22pm

re: #97 Obdicut

There is no need for relativization.

101 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 8:27:24pm

re: #97 Obdicut

However, without in any way excusing Turner's murders, I will say it's a lot easier for me to understand a slave rebelling and killing those in the society that enslaved him, than it is for me to understand the mind of a man who'd make someone a slave.

That.

102 freetoken  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 8:28:15pm

The South Carolina's Declaration of the Immediate Causes Which Induce and Justify the Secession has nothing in it about Brown or Turner.

However, slavery is mentioned many times.

103 moderatelyradicalliberal  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 8:28:56pm

re: #97 Obdicut

Well, that's a wrong person to hold up as a hero, especially when there's so many people who fought for liberty in the Civil War without making it murder and terrorism.

However, without in any way excusing Turner's murders, I will say it's a lot easier for me to understand a slave rebelling and killing those in the society that enslaved him, than it is for me to understand the mind of a man who'd make someone a slave.

Yeah, this.

104 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 8:28:58pm

ONE TEXAS UNDER TEN GALLON HAT YEEHAW JESUS PRAISE WHITE JESUS

105 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 8:29:08pm

re: #91 Obdicut

I just mean that human beings in other places gave up slavery without bloodshed, so the Southerners could have, as well.

People don't want to give-up perceived power. Thinking that it is the divine natural order of the universe that you own another human being has got to be orgasm level power for those addicted to it.

If a heroin addict believed that heroin was a gift from G-d, how would you convince them otherwise?

106 Obdicut  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 8:29:24pm

re: #93 Atlas Fails

I don't know, a lot of the South had been bitching about the industrialized North since the American System and Andrew Jackson's "Tariff of Abominations." Slavery was the central issue, and Lincoln's election sealed the deal for secession, but I think the South was just looking for an excuse at that point.

That's how it played out, yes. But with different leaders, different people, with more attention paid to the ministers and abolitionists in the South, it could have been different. That's all I'm saying. It wasn't historic inevitability. The South had chances, many of them, to end slavery in a fashion that wouldn't uproot their society overnight, and they chose not to take those chances; in fact, they chose to fight for the continuation and expansion of slavery.

But it didn't have to be that way. There were good men and women in the South who were abolitionists. Brave they were.

I had a book a long time ago called something like seven essays on the South. I lost it, and I deeply regret it; it had a beautiful essay that basically said when war came, it was almost a relief, because what was certain was the disintegration (hah) of Southern Society. The brutalization of slavery was too great, it was breaking down the morale of the society even as they celebrated it. It was an interesting take on it.

107 Obdicut  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 8:30:53pm

re: #100 Sergey Romanov

There is no need for relativization.

I'm not relativizing. I'm saying I can better understand murder than slavery. I simply can't picture actually enslaving another human being. If I grew up in that society, maybe, but it's just so abhorrently foreign.

108 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 8:31:11pm

re: #76 Dark_Falcon

Ick. Murderous fanatics, both of them. They both richly earned their hangings. Nat Turner actually damaged to cause of abolition, and Browns raid on Harper's Ferry made the Civil War a certainty.

Wow, this is so totally Republican

109 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 8:31:17pm

re: #105 ggt

People don't want to give-up perceived power. Thinking that it is the divine natural order of the universe that you own another human being has got to be orgasm level power for those addicted to it.

If a heroin addict believed that heroin was a gift from G-d, how would you convince them otherwise?

Not to mention the fact that from the eighteenth century on, there's a recurrent theme of 'if slavery ends, what the hell happens next, with all these black people who aren't slaves any more being right here?'

You see it in Jefferson's work, and he's in a period where he can be a little flexible and imaginative. By the mid-ninteenth century, the very thought seems absolutely terrifying and unmanageable to most white Southerners.

110 moderatelyradicalliberal  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 8:31:41pm

re: #90 Sergey Romanov

So you do actually admire the child-murdering terrorist Turner?

No, I was making an equivalent argument about controversial figures of that era.

111 freetoken  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 8:31:48pm

re: #108 WindUpBird

Wow, this is so totally Republican

You would not have written that in 1860.

112 HappyWarrior  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 8:32:24pm

The other fact that we have to look at is Turner and his group no doubt saw their and others families split up. I am not condoning murder but I can't truthfully say I wouldn't react violently if I lived in such a society and had been enslaved.

113 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 8:32:27pm

re: #86 moderatelyradicalliberal

You've got to be kidding me? Southerners being unwilling to free there slaves made the Civil War a certainty. I guess you think they were going to until Brown and Turner turned to violence to end an institution that showed absolutely no sign of ending anytime soon or in a peaceful manner.

What I'm saying is twofold:

1. Nat Turner's Rebellion stoked Southern paranoia about "servile insurrection" to such an (irrational) extent that they regarded any idea of abolition as an invitation to their murder.

2. While the Civil War was a strong eventual likelihood by the 1850's, john Brown's raid made it a certainty.

Those things having been said, it is still correct to say that the primary cause of the American Civil War was the South's insistence on not only maintaining, but expanding slavery. Southern intransigence and butthurt played greater roles in causing war than any other factors.

114 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 8:32:40pm

re: #108 WindUpBird

Wow, this is so totally Republican

You want to maybe give us your ideas about Nat Turner and John Brown?

115 RadicalModerate  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 8:33:05pm

re: #60 OhNoZombies!

I've been doing a little research on my family history in Colfax, LA. My grandma's maiden name was Hadnot, and I stumbled across this:

Colfax Riot

The bloodiest single instance of racial carnage in the Reconstruction era, the Colfax massacre taught many lessons, including the lengths to which some opponents of Reconstruction would go to regain their accustomed authority. Among blacks in Louisiana, the incident was long remembered as proof that in any large confrontation, they stood at a fatal disadvantage. "The organization against them is too strong. ..." Louisiana black teacher and Reconstruction legislator John G. Lewis later remarked. "They attempted [armed self-defense] in Colfax. The result was that on Easter Sunday of 1873, when the sun went down that night, it went down on the corpses of two hundred and eighty negroes."[1]

If anyone decides to read the whole thing, an interesting note:
My great-grandfather, a black man born around 1879, was named James Hadnot.

This historical marker still stands in Colfax - which actually attempts to justify the massacre and rise of the rise of racist groups like the White League and KKK, which subsequently ruled the area through intimidation and murder of any who opposed them.

Colfax Riot Historical Marker

It reads as follows:

"On this site occurred the Colfax Riot in which three white men and 150 negroes were slain. This event on April 13, 1873 marked the end of carpetbag misrule in the South."

116 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 8:33:05pm

re: #100 Sergey Romanov

There is no need for relativization.

I happen to think legal slavery is far far worse than murder

117 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 8:33:29pm

re: #97 Obdicut

Well, that's a wrong person to hold up as a hero, especially when there's so many people who fought for liberty in the Civil War without making it murder and terrorism.

However, without in any way excusing Turner's murders, I will say it's a lot easier for me to understand a slave rebelling and killing those in the society that enslaved him, than it is for me to understand the mind of a man who'd make someone a slave.

Quite Concur.

118 Atlas Fails  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 8:33:42pm

re: #108 WindUpBird

Wow, this is so totally Republican

I gotta side with Dark here. When you're willing to endanger the lives of innocents as collateral damage to make a political point, no matter how valid that point is, you're a terrorist in my book.

119 OhNoZombies!  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 8:33:51pm

re: #84 Obdicut

Other than the desire to secede, I don't think a lot of southerners felt they could safely free slaves. I think slaves either had populations that were equal to or greater than whites in some parts of the south. I get the impression there was some fear of payback from them.

120 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 8:34:00pm

re: #107 Obdicut

I'm not relativizing. I'm saying I can better understand murder than slavery. I simply can't picture actually enslaving another human being. If I grew up in that society, maybe, but it's just so abhorrently foreign.

We've all been mad enough to understand how someone would kill

And if you're ENSLAVED, I can understand wanting to murder, oh yes

121 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 8:34:11pm

re: #107 Obdicut

I'm not relativizing. I'm saying I can better understand murder than slavery. I simply can't picture actually enslaving another human being. If I grew up in that society, maybe, but it's just so abhorrently foreign.

But why did you bring that up? It's not like anybody disputed it or that was an issue. You explicitly compared it to the murders too. You also wrote about "killing those in the society that enslaved him", while actually his main fault is murdering those who had nothing to do with it, i.e. children.

122 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 8:34:11pm

re: #109 SanFranciscoZionist

Not to mention the fact that from the eighteenth century on, there's a recurrent theme of 'if slavery ends, what the hell happens next, with all these black people who aren't slaves any more being right here?'

You see it in Jefferson's work, and he's in a period where he can be a little flexible and imaginative. By the mid-ninteenth century, the very thought seems absolutely terrifying and unmanageable to most white Southerners.

Don't get me started on Jefferson . . .

It wasn't until slavery was defined by one's skin color in the America's that it became truly insidious. Even in Catholic South American, slaves were considered humans with souls. Not so in the Southern States. It's a phenomena I can only explain in religious terms -- evil.

123 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 8:34:32pm

re: #110 moderatelyradicalliberal

No, I was making an equivalent argument about controversial figures of that era.

OK.

124 freetoken  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 8:34:40pm

re: #118 Atlas Fails

... you're a terrorist in my book.

One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter.


ducks

125 Obdicut  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 8:34:56pm

re: #115 RadicalModerate

This historical marker still stands in Colfax - which actually attempts to justify the massacre and rise of the rise of racist groups like the White League and KKK, which subsequently ruled the area through intimidation and murder of any who opposed them.

Colfax Riot Historical Marker

It reads as follows:

Are you shitting me?

I swear, I am a law abiding man, but it is in me to knock that sign to the ground. And spit on it.

Holy shit.

126 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 8:35:07pm

re: #116 WindUpBird

I happen to think legal slavery is far far worse than murder

And this has bearing on what issue?

127 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 8:35:18pm

re: #113 Dark_Falcon

What I'm saying is twofold:

1. Nat Turner's Rebellion stoked Southern paranoia about "servile insurrection" to such an (irrational) extent that they regarded any idea of abolition as an invitation to their murder.

2. While the Civil War was a strong eventual likelihood by the 1850's, john Brown's raid made it a certainty.

Those things having been said, it is still correct to say that the primary cause of the American Civil War was the South's insistence on not only maintaining, but expanding slavery. Southern intransigence and butthurt played greater roles in causing war than any other factors.

You have to remember that Slaves were Property. Property rights as civil rights are at the heart of the issue, IMHO.

128 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 8:35:27pm

re: #114 SanFranciscoZionist

You want to maybe give us your ideas about Nat Turner and John Brown?

Thought I already did!


I will say this, the idea that it was Brown who "made the civil war a certainty" is bonkers lunacy

129 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 8:35:50pm

re: #116 WindUpBird

I happen to think legal slavery is far far worse than murder

And we won't see justice, true justice, on this earth until it is adjudicated as such.

130 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 8:36:06pm

re: #126 Sergey Romanov

And this has bearing on what issue?

are we even in the same thread, hahaha

131 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 8:36:27pm

re: #107 Obdicut

And sorry to pressure you on this man, but I really didn't get the reason for that comment.

132 Atlas Fails  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 8:36:38pm

re: #122 ggt

Don't get me started on Jefferson . . .

It wasn't until slavery was defined by one's skin color in the America's that it became truly insidious. Even in Catholic South American, slaves were considered humans with souls. Not so in the Southern States. It's a phenomena I can only explain in religious terms -- evil.

Go easy on TJ. He was certainly a flawed guy (to say the least), but his writings and the ideals contained in them transcended him and have come to define what America should strive to be.

133 HappyWarrior  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 8:37:21pm

re: #128 WindUpBird

Thought I already did!

I will say this, the idea that it was Brown who "made the civil war a certainty" is bonkers lunacy

I don't think DF is sympathizing with the South here WUB, I disagree with DF on a lot of things but the man is far away from being a Confederate apologist as one can be. I think he's saying the South felt threatened by Brown's raid and I don't disagree with that. I still contend Lincoln's election is what did it. You didn't see any Southern states secede until Buchanan became a lameduck and Abe president elect.

134 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 8:37:37pm

re: #130 WindUpBird

are we even in the same thread, hahaha

Well, yes, we were discussing how wrong it is to murder children. What does thinking something or other about slavery have to do with this?

135 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 8:37:50pm

re: #132 Atlas Fails

Go easy on TJ. He was certainly a flawed guy (to say the least), but his writings and the ideals contained in them transcended him and have come to define what America should strive to be.

I have alot of problems with TJ. But I don't feel like going into it tonite.

Rest easy.

136 Atlas Fails  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 8:38:05pm

re: #124 freetoken

One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter.

ducks

That's why I draw the line at willingness to take out civilians. Once you've crossed that line, you're a terrorist, imo.

137 goddamnedfrank  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 8:38:20pm

re: #90 Sergey Romanov

So you do actually admire the child-murdering terrorist Turner?

Every single slave owner was a terrorist that upheld a system that abused, enslaved and murdered children. The idea that Turner was supposed to be more civilized than the brutalizing society that produced him is incredibly unrealistic.

Next up, Spartacus was a bad man.

138 Obdicut  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 8:38:23pm

re: #121 Sergey Romanov

But why did you bring that up? It's not like anybody disputed it or that was an issue. You explicitly compared it to the murders too. You also wrote about "killing those in the society that enslaved him", while actually his main fault is murdering those who had nothing to do with it, i.e. children.

I'm not sure what you're not understanding. I'm saying that, to my mind, I can understand, put myself in the shoes of, a murderer, more easily than that of someone enslaving someone else.

I'm not in any way exculpating Turner from his crimes. If he'd just gone around killing actual slavemasters with whips in their hands, I'd have considered him a foolish man but ethically pretty much okay. By killing innocents, he's a terrorist, a murderer, and deserves no ones praise or adulation.

The point I'm making is not that because I can't understand slavery that it's the worse crime, but that it's just so damn foreign it's hard to even hold in my head.

139 freetoken  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 8:38:54pm

re: #136 Atlas Fails

Sherman, Sheridan, and Grant would probably be found guilty of war crimes, by today's standard.

140 palomino  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 8:39:02pm

re: #120 WindUpBird

We've all been mad enough to understand how someone would kill

And if you're ENSLAVED, I can understand wanting to murder, oh yes

Absolutely. The application of our conventional ideas of morality to someone who's been enslaved is a mistake, it seems to me. Expecting none of them to want to kill the white owners and their families is unrealistic.

And, in the Bible, didn't Moses (indirectly, with God's help) commit "murder" by killing the first born sons of Egyptian families? And his justification was the slavery of his people. Fine by me.

141 Obdicut  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 8:39:31pm

re: #137 goddamnedfrank

Every single slave owner was a terrorist that upheld a system that abused, enslaved and murdered children. The idea that Turner was supposed to be more civilized than the brutalizing society that produced him is incredibly unrealistic.

Next up, Spartacus was a bad man.

You don't have to be civilized to not murder unarmed women and children.

142 OhNoZombies!  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 8:39:43pm

re: #115 RadicalModerate

I know. It's the absolute refusal to take responsibility for their actions, and shameless hypocrisy.
I wouldn't exist without these people... :/

143 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 8:40:48pm

re: #133 HappyWarrior

I don't think DF is sympathizing with the South here WUB, I disagree with DF on a lot of things but the man is far away from being a Confederate apologist as one can be. I think he's saying the South felt threatened by Brown's raid and I don't disagree with that. I still contend Lincoln's election is what did it. You didn't see any Southern states secede until Buchanan became a lameduck and Abe president elect.

I was reading it as less confederate apologism and more 'OH GOSH A GUY ROCKED THE BOAT IT'S HIS FAULT"

144 Obdicut  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 8:40:53pm

re: #140 palomino

Absolutely. The application of our conventional ideas of morality to someone who's been enslaved is a mistake, it seems to me. Expecting none of them to want to kill the white owners and their families is unrealistic.

Okay, now I'm really regretting writing what I did, because this is not what I meant at all. I can fully expect someone to not want to murder children, even if they've been enslaved. That sort of thinking leads to endless suffering. Does the family of the murdered child get to then murder Turner's family in revenge? Where does that shit end?

145 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 8:41:38pm

re: #135 ggt

I have alot of problems with TJ. But I don't feel like going into it tonite.

Rest easy.

He's very alien to me. I admire the writing, and the passion. But on so many points, he's simply so culturally distant that I can barely make him out.

Adams girl, I suppose.

146 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 8:41:56pm

re: #141 Obdicut

You don't have to be civilized to not murder unarmed women and children.

There is some historic precedent that I've never understood. Something about removing their ancestral line so they can't ever come find you and kill you.

Hatfields and the McCoys.

I think we used to see it more in the Eastern Cultures. Sons vieing for power, kill the brother from another mother and every one in "her" line. . . .

147 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 8:41:59pm

re: #140 palomino

And, in the Bible, didn't Moses (indirectly, with God's help) commit "murder" by killing the first born sons of Egyptian families? And his justification was the slavery of his people. Fine by me.

Wow. Such abysses open sometimes.

148 OhNoZombies!  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 8:42:11pm

re: #125 Obdicut

It's there...

149 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 8:42:35pm

re: #145 SanFranciscoZionist

He's very alien to me. I admire the writing, and the passion. But on so many points, he's simply so culturally distant that I can barely make him out.

Adams girl, I suppose.

He was a patrician .. .

150 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 8:42:42pm

re: #136 Atlas Fails

That's why I draw the line at willingness to take out civilians. Once you've crossed that line, you're a terrorist, imo.

This wasn't something that could conceivably be considered a military conflict, though.

151 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 8:43:15pm

re: #138 Obdicut

I'm not sure what you're not understanding. I'm saying that, to my mind, I can understand, put myself in the shoes of, a murderer, more easily than that of someone enslaving someone else.

I'm not in any way exculpating Turner from his crimes. If he'd just gone around killing actual slavemasters with whips in their hands, I'd have considered him a foolish man but ethically pretty much okay. By killing innocents, he's a terrorist, a murderer, and deserves no ones praise or adulation.

The point I'm making is not that because I can't understand slavery that it's the worse crime, but that it's just so damn foreign it's hard to even hold in my head.

I'd excuse him from his crimes, same way as I'd excuse anyone locked in a box and driven crazy or abused from their crimes

152 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 8:43:25pm

I guess in a slave's case, he could say the children would grow-up and claim him as their property by inheritance?

153 windsagio  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 8:43:31pm

re: #133 HappyWarrior

He's not sympathizing with the south, but he's bying into terrible neoconfederate talking points.

The Civil War was inevitable well before John Brown, the south would accept nothing less than the continual expansion of slavery, nothing else was acceptable to them, to the point of war.

(I should add and with reason, by all good accounts slavery had to expand or die)

154 HappyWarrior  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 8:43:51pm

re: #143 WindUpBird

I was reading it as less confederate apologism and more 'OH GOSH A GUY ROCKED THE BOAT IT'S HIS FAULT"

Gotcha. I think he's saying the Southern states felt threatened b the raid which isn't that far off since many in the North did see Brown as a hero and the South as DF eloquently put it was butt hurt especially by Lincoln being elected.

155 Obdicut  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 8:44:22pm

re: #148 OhNoZombies!

It's there...

That is a fucking travesty. That is a celebration of the killing of black men and the beginning of Jim Crow. That is foul.

156 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 8:44:52pm

re: #153 windsagio

He's not sympathizing with the south, but he's bying into terrible neoconfederate talking points.

The Civil War was inevitable well before John Brown, the south would accept nothing less than the continual expansion of slavery, nothing else was acceptable to them, to the point of war.

(I should add and with reason, by all good accounts slavery had to expand or die)

this

157 HappyWarrior  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 8:45:06pm

re: #153 windsagio

He's not sympathizing with the south, but he's bying into terrible neoconfederate talking points.

The Civil War was inevitable well before John Brown, the south would accept nothing less than the continual expansion of slavery, nothing else was acceptable to them, to the point of war.

(I should add and with reason, by all good accounts slavery had to expand or die)

NOw on that I agree with you absolutely. The southern states felt threatened by the election of a moderate abolitionist.

158 palomino  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 8:45:22pm

re: #144 Obdicut

Okay, now I'm really regretting writing what I did, because this is not what I meant at all. I can fully expect someone to not want to murder children, even if they've been enslaved. That sort of thinking leads to endless suffering. Does the family of the murdered child get to then murder Turner's family in revenge? Where does that shit end?

It ends when slavery and other extreme forms of degradation end.

I've imagined how I would have felt at age 30 if I were Nat Turner. The prospect of leading a rebellion seems far more attractive than picking tobacco for another ten years (while your people are tortured, sold and murdered) and then dropping dead one day out in the fields.

159 windsagio  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 8:45:29pm

re: #156 WindUpBird

tags > you :p

160 Vicious Babushka  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 8:46:02pm

re: #52 freetoken

Happy Birthday, Earth!

Did creation begin 6,015 years ago tonight?

Rosh Hashanah was 3 weeks ago, and we just rang (actually blew in) in 5772.
//BTW the "age" of the earth is not mentioned anywhere in Scripture, it was derived by calculations. Oh and the "Six Days" according to Kabbalistic sources, encompassed billions of years.

161 Atlas Fails  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 8:46:56pm

re: #145 SanFranciscoZionist

He's very alien to me. I admire the writing, and the passion. But on so many points, he's simply so culturally distant that I can barely make him out.

Adams girl, I suppose.

Jefferson used to be my favorite FF, but after some reading, I've really become more of an Adams fan. It's hard to justify his pissing all over the Constitution with the Alien and Sedition Acts, but his legacy is so much more complex. From defending the British troops charged in the Boston Massacre to preventing a war with France and everything in between, Adams has lots of really interesting and commendable achievements that too often get overlooked.

162 Atlas Fails  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 8:47:53pm

re: #150 SanFranciscoZionist

This wasn't something that could conceivably be considered a military conflict, though.

True, I should have added that qualifier.

163 Obdicut  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 8:48:04pm

re: #158 palomino

It ends when slavery and other extreme forms of degradation end.

I've imagined how I would have felt at age 30 if I were Nat Turner. The prospect of leading a rebellion seems far more attractive than picking tobacco for another ten years (while your people are tortured, sold and murdered) and then dropping dead one day out in the fields.

You know that Turner had visions and thought God was telling him to do this stuff, right?

I'm fine with leading rebellions. Lead all the rebellions you want. I don't get how murdering women and children helps that rebellion. Seems to me doing that pretty much dooms your rebellion at the start of it, don't it?

164 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 8:48:06pm

re: #139 freetoken

Sherman, Sheridan, and Grant would probably be found guilty of war crimes, by today's standard.

So would Jimmy Dolittle and Curtis LeMay. The appeal of total war in western nations was greatly reduced by World War 2, and the advent of nuclear weapons has made total war between major powers too dangerous to risk.

165 goddamnedfrank  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 8:48:19pm

re: #141 Obdicut

You don't have to be civilized to not murder unarmed women and children.

If you treat someone like an animal just don't be surprised when they act like one. Realistically, if I'm ever enslaved in such a system, then the lives of the family of my erstwhile owners must be weighed against the threat that their words or testimony can put me and my family back in chains. Just because they were unarmed didn't mean they weren't a clear and present danger in that place and time.

166 windsagio  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 8:49:04pm

Per Nat Turner, I don't blame other slaves for not revolting, but let me just say this.

He was absolutely justified in trying an armed revolt.

The only escape for slaves was war, as was abundantly proved 30 years later.

167 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 8:49:07pm

re: #165 goddamnedfrank

exactly

168 moderatelyradicalliberal  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 8:49:20pm

re: #123 Sergey Romanov

OK.

Like slavery, killing children and collective punishment are all evil so I wouldn't call Nat Turner a hero. I will say that Nat Turner's action gives validity to the notion that slavery dehumanized slaves and slave owners alike. The Nat Turner, those weren't children weren't children, they were future slave owners. I saw documentary in which a grown giraffe stomped a baby lion cub to death. Sure it was harmless, but baby lions grow up and become stone cold predators. The giraffe eliminated a future threat. Nat Turner was dehumanized enough to think like that giraffe. It wasn't enough to take revenge on adult white people or just white slave owners because he hated all of them. Had I been a slave, I might have too.

169 Obdicut  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 8:49:44pm

re: #165 goddamnedfrank

If you treat someone like an animal just don't be surprised when they act like one.

He didn't act like an animal. He acted like a man who thinks he has prophetic visions and acted on them in a very human, planned fashion. This wasn't him lashing out suddenly.

Realistically, if I'm ever enslaved in such a system, then the lives of the family of my erstwhile owners must be weighed against the threat that their words or testimony can put me and my family back in chains. Just because they were unarmed didn't mean they weren't a clear and present danger in that place and time.

Which has zero to do with the story of Nat Turner.

Are you really saying you'd murder a child to escape from slavery, for fear that child would testify against you or be able to lead to your capture?

170 OhNoZombies!  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 8:49:50pm

re: #144 Obdicut

Thing is, they murdered slave children all the time.
For Nat Turner, I imagine this was war, and all is fair. Right and wrong depends on what your perspective is.
I always thought John Brown was a little unstable, by the way.

171 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 8:49:52pm

re: #151 WindUpBird

I'd excuse him from his crimes, same way as I'd excuse anyone locked in a box and driven crazy or abused from their crimes

Then would you excuse the murder of children by Chechen terrorists at Beslan, WUB? Because the same argument can be used there, too.

172 palomino  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 8:49:58pm

re: #147 Sergey Romanov

Wow. Such abysses open sometimes.

What's the difference? Slavery is one of the most extreme forms of degradation. It causes people to act in otherwise irrational ways, because they want to escape and be free.

Nat Turner went too far, but I think he may deserve just a little slack, given the circumstances.

173 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 8:50:01pm

re: #159 windsagio

tags > you :p

yeahyeah :D

174 HappyWarrior  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 8:50:11pm

re: #161 Atlas Fails

Jefferson used to be my favorite FF, but after some reading, I've really become more of an Adams fan. It's hard to justify his pissing all over the Constitution with the Alien and Sedition Acts, but his legacy is so much more complex. From defending the British troops charged in the Boston Massacre to preventing a war with France and everything in between, Adams has lots of really interesting and commendable achievements that too often get overlooked.

I think Adams wins my profiles in courage by a founder award. I actually came to admire Hamilton after I heard he opposed a secessionist movement in New England that developed after the Louisiana Purchase. I guess it's being a Virginian but I admire Jefferson for all his imperfections. Now all and all looking at ideas and as guys, I love Franklin the most because he'd be the perfect drinking buddy :).

175 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 8:50:30pm

re: #168 moderatelyradicalliberal

Yours is the position I can probably agree with. But boy, has this been an illuminating thread.

176 windsagio  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 8:51:28pm

damn a few people beat me to my point per rebellion.

It's easy to bitch about privilege, but its a damn real thing. None of us have any idea what it would be like to be a slave.

177 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 8:51:47pm

when you enslave someone, you create the conditions for their possible eventual rebellion


may as well morally blame the claymore mine you buried years earlier for blowing up

178 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 8:51:58pm

re: #176 windsagio

damn a few people beat me to my point per rebellion.

It's easy to bitch about privilege, but its a damn real thing. None of us have any idea what it would be like to be a slave.

179 HappyWarrior  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 8:52:08pm

By the way guys I appreciate we're having a by and large civilized conversation about this. It's a tough issue really for me.

180 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 8:52:26pm

re: #172 palomino

You've just said "Fine by me" to a mass murder of children. Mythical mass murder of course, since there is no evidence the Biblical story ever happened, but still.

181 Obdicut  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 8:52:38pm

re: #170 OhNoZombies!

Thing is, they murdered slave children all the time.
For Nat Turner, I imagine this was war, and all is fair. Right and wrong depends on what your perspective is.
I always thought John Brown was a little unstable, by the way.

No, Nat Turner thought that he was getting messages from God and had visions. And I don't believe right and wrong depends on what your perspective is. I think murdering children is wrong.

182 windsagio  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 8:53:22pm

re: #178 WindUpBird

to go a bit further, its easy for us to sit in our nice little upper/middle class homes and say what is or is not justifiable.

Especially when talking about things that happened 150 years ago under unimaginable circumstances.

183 Atlas Fails  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 8:53:54pm

re: #174 HappyWarrior

I think Adams wins my profiles in courage by a founder award. I actually came to admire Hamilton after I heard he opposed a secessionist movement in New England that developed after the Louisiana Purchase. I guess it's being a Virginian but I admire Jefferson for all his imperfections. Now all and all looking at ideas and as guys, I love Franklin the most because he'd be the perfect drinking buddy :).

Like I said, put me firmly in the Adams FF camp ;)

I know I've mentioned it before, but Profiles in Courage for Our Time really is an excellent book that I encourage anyone with an interest in politics or history (so pretty much everyone here) to check out some time.

184 Obdicut  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 8:54:28pm

re: #177 WindUpBird

when you enslave someone, you create the conditions for their possible eventual rebellion

may as well morally blame the claymore mine you buried years earlier for blowing up

To me, that's dehumanizing them, that's saying slavery really eradicated their free will, made them objects, not men. I'd say that the slaves proved, before, during, and after, over and over that, brutalized as they were, they were still human, still humane.

185 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 8:54:42pm

Back to the downstairs thread on immigration. I have one question.

Obama is enforcing the law in an effort to force reform-no?

Is that Bush II, knew these human rights violations would happen and just didn't didn't have the heart to enforce the law?

I remember watching Tancredo and Rahm Emmanuel (or Gutierrez--one of the politicans from Illinois) talking about this on C-SPAN years ago.

It was the same conversation --either enforce the law or change it. As it is now, it doesn't work.

186 Obdicut  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 8:55:07pm

re: #182 windsagio

Murdering children is not justifiable. Especially if you think the holy spirit is talking to you and telling you that it's cool.

187 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 8:55:11pm

re: #182 windsagio

to go a bit further, its easy for us to sit in our nice little upper/middle class homes and say what is or is not justifiable.

Especially when talking about things that happened 150 years ago under unimaginable circumstances.

Congratulations, you've just justified almost every terrorist act (well, maybe except Breivik's). Because you don't know what it is to be a [such and such thirld world group], etc.

188 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 8:55:33pm

re: #163 Obdicut

You know that Turner had visions and thought God was telling him to do this stuff, right?

I'm fine with leading rebellions. Lead all the rebellions you want. I don't get how murdering women and children helps that rebellion. Seems to me doing that pretty much dooms your rebellion at the start of it, don't it?

I think they were pretty much doomed from the start. I'm pretty sure they knew that, too.

Hard to say that limiting themselves to legitimate targets (and what those would have been is somewhat unclear in this case) would have helped. Hard to say that anything would have helped.

189 Atlas Fails  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 8:56:11pm

re: #180 Sergey Romanov

You've just said "Fine by me" to a mass murder of children. Mythical mass murder of course, since there is no evidence the Biblical story ever happened, but still.

I think you can condemn Turner's actions while still understanding why he did what he did. If he was put on trial today, he'd probably stand a good chance of getting off with a psyche defense (I knew that Law & Order jargon would come in handy someday!).

190 windsagio  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 8:56:58pm

re: #187 Sergey Romanov

here's the thing. Nobody I can think of in modern terrorism is under remotely the condition that slaves were.

There's nothing comparable to it, in any modern circumstance.

191 laZardo  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 8:57:25pm
192 Obdicut  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 8:57:41pm

re: #189 Atlas Fails

No, a plea of insanity involves believing that you're not doing harm, or that you don't know right from wrong. Turner's diaries showed that he understood murdering innocents was wrong-- he even spared some households that were poor enough-- but that he felt it was 'necessary' because he'd had visions telling him that this would result in a revolution.

193 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 8:57:58pm

re: #190 windsagio

here's the thing. Nobody I can think of in modern terrorism is under remotely the condition that slaves were.

There's nothing comparable to it, in any modern circumstance.

It doesn't matter, since your argument applies generally. Sorry, that's the way you've formulated it, maybe without meaning it.

194 HappyWarrior  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 8:58:24pm

re: #183 Atlas Fails

Like I said, put me firmly in the Adams FF camp ;)

I know I've mentioned it before, but Profiles in Courage for Our Time really is an excellent book that I encourage anyone with an interest in politics or history (so pretty much everyone here) to check out some time.

I have a copy. I haven't read all of it but I have read some of it. Speaking of Adams, I bet you liked the John Adams miniseries. Adams had a lot of courage to defend those Redcoats but did so anyhow on the principle that every man is entitled to a defense. I am not a romantic guy on a lot of levels but the Abigail-John relationship is so awesome.

195 moderatelyradicalliberal  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 8:59:02pm

re: #186 Obdicut

Murdering children is not justifiable. Especially if you think the holy spirit is talking to you and telling you that it's cool.

His claim to be directed by God was probably bullshit. Nat Turner hated white people, period and he was going to kill as many as he could before they killed him because he had probably given up hope of ever being free. Dehumanization, loss of hope and burning all consuming rage is what led to his acts.

196 Gus  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 8:59:11pm

Just reversed three down dings. Thought I was a better man than that. Finished watching House -- been a while -- and Jupiter is in the sky again.

197 Atlas Fails  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 8:59:40pm

re: #192 Obdicut

No, a plea of insanity involves believing that you're not doing harm, or that you don't know right from wrong. Turner's diaries showed that he understood murdering innocents was wrong-- he even spared some households that were poor enough-- but that he felt it was 'necessary' because he'd had visions telling him that this would result in a revolution.

As you've mentioned though, he thought God was telling him what to do. The M'Naughten Rule may not apply, but many states have tossed that out the window for a more comprehensive definition of mental illness.

198 palomino  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 9:00:19pm

re: #163 Obdicut

You know that Turner had visions and thought God was telling him to do this stuff, right?

I'm fine with leading rebellions. Lead all the rebellions you want. I don't get how murdering women and children helps that rebellion. Seems to me doing that pretty much dooms your rebellion at the start of it, don't it?

Yes, I know he had visions. It probably means he was insane, another reason I'm inclined to give him a break.

Sure, we can look at Turner from the rational standpoint of people who haven't been enslaved and know how to craft a message for maximum effect. And, from that standpoint, we can easily condemn him. Or we can imagine the kind of horrors he probably endured, the emotional instability to which that probably led, and then I think understand why he might want to kill white people. After all, white people were the only thing that stood between him and some level of human dignity.

199 windsagio  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 9:00:37pm

re: #193 Sergey Romanov

no, my point is rather that the situation there was so unimaginably bad that very extreme responses would be more than justified.

Everything is on a scale, nothing is binary, its the nature of the world.

Absolutely, killing people in their beds is fucked up. But so is slavery.

200 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 9:00:44pm

re: #187 Sergey Romanov

i'm going to take a wild guess and say that being enslaved is probably going to dim your view of humanity and the value of human life

i mean, maybe it's the opposite! But I'll guess that no, it isn't.


maybe constantly being beaten and raped and imprisoned and worked half (or fully) to death and watching your loved ones taken away from you and also beaten and raped, and seeing no hope or way out is actually going to change the way you think about people

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that it's probably a pretty rough life and might take its toll on the mental health of the slave


And ya know what? I'm not going to waggle my finger and scold the guy who started a rebellion, because, ya know, he was a slave, like a really real actual slave, not a figure of speech slave

201 Atlas Fails  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 9:00:51pm

re: #194 HappyWarrior

I have a copy. I haven't read all of it but I have read some of it. Speaking of Adams, I bet you liked the John Adams miniseries. Adams had a lot of courage to defend those Redcoats but did so anyhow on the principle that every man is entitled to a defense. I am not a romantic guy on a lot of levels but the Abigail-John relationship is so awesome.

I never watched the whole miniseries, but I've seen bits and pieces. I'd like to get around to renting it sometime.

202 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 9:01:21pm

re: #182 windsagio

to go a bit further, its easy for us to sit in our nice little upper/middle class homes and say what is or is not justifiable.

Especially when talking about things that happened 150 years ago under unimaginable circumstances.

re: #182 windsagio

Sorry wind, but some things must be considered as always beyond the pale. I can understand (or at least try to understand) how Turner could have felt as he did, but to understand is distinct from to excuse. Someone who does what Turner did, no matter what the reason, must be forever removed from society. I would have no problem with lifetime confinement and then making their prison comfortable as can be safely done, but there are certain acts that cannot be tolerated ever.

203 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 9:01:30pm

re: #170 OhNoZombies!

Thing is, they murdered slave children all the time.
For Nat Turner, I imagine this was war, and all is fair. Right and wrong depends on what your perspective is.
I always thought John Brown was a little unstable, by the way.

John Brown was a little unstable, in the way that old, oozy, dynamite is a little unstable. The man was off his freaking rocker.

I cannot say a word about the justice of his overall cause...but he was a batshit crazy stone killer for it.

204 Obdicut  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 9:01:30pm

re: #195 moderatelyradicalliberal

I'm not psychic nor clairvoyant. He was a highly religious man who said that he had visions. He was either playing some very strange long con, or he was telling the truth. I'd prefer to believe him.

Anyway. Murdering children is wrong. This should not be a controversial statement. It is never justifiable.

That way lies madness.

205 goddamnedfrank  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 9:02:03pm

re: #195 moderatelyradicalliberal

His claim to be directed by God was probably bullshit.

The entire Confessions reads like a white man's confabulation. Way too many bullshit stereotypes and racist tropes in that book.

206 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 9:02:34pm

re: #204 Obdicut

I'm not psychic nor clairvoyant. He was a highly religious man who said that he had visions. He was either playing some very strange long con, or he was telling the truth. I'd prefer to believe him.

Anyway. Murdering children is wrong. This should not be a controversial statement. It is never justifiable.

That way lies madness.

You owns another human being, you takes the risk . . . .

207 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 9:02:34pm

re: #200 WindUpBird

Yeah, I already got that children's heads on sticks don't bother you. Whatever.

208 Ben G. Hazi  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 9:03:28pm

re: #115 RadicalModerate

This historical marker still stands in Colfax - which actually attempts to justify the massacre and rise of the rise of racist groups like the White League and KKK, which subsequently ruled the area through intimidation and murder of any who opposed them.

Colfax Riot Historical Marker

It reads as follows:

"On this site occurred the Colfax Riot in which three white men and 150 negroes were slain. This event on April 13, 1873 marked the end of carpetbag misrule in the South."

If one looks closely at the marker, you can see why it's worded that way: down in the lower right-hand corner, it appears to have a date of either 1930 or 1950, smack dab in the middle of Jim Crow.

Definitely not justifying it, but one can see how and why that marker was worded the way it is. What is shameful is that it remains there like that...

209 Gus  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 9:03:37pm

Uh oh. What have I happened upon?

//

210 Obdicut  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 9:04:10pm

re: #200 WindUpBird

To me, that view, that 'he was so brutalized he can't be held at all responsible', is incredibly patronizing.

He killed children. You can waggle your finger at people who killed children. Not that Nat Turner will care, because A) he's dead and B) he felt he was divinely inspired.

211 palomino  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 9:04:19pm

re: #180 Sergey Romanov

You've just said "Fine by me" to a mass murder of children. Mythical mass murder of course, since there is no evidence the Biblical story ever happened, but still.

In some extreme circumstances, what other option is there to rebel against an injustice? Slaves couldn't call in sick or organize an Occupy Atlanta protest.

And as far as mass murder goes, we have in some cases perceived it as the lesser of two evils. Dresden? Hiroshima?

212 Atlas Fails  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 9:04:19pm

re: #207 Sergey Romanov

Yeah, I already got that children's heads on sticks don't bother you. Whatever.

This is getting kind of intense...

213 windsagio  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 9:04:50pm

OK this is bugging me.

Murder is murder, dead is dead.

there, I feel better.

214 freetoken  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 9:04:58pm

My entertainment for the night:

215 HappyWarrior  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 9:05:11pm

re: #201 Atlas Fails

I never watched the whole miniseries, but I've seen bits and pieces. I'd like to get around to renting it sometime.

Recommended. David McCullough is one of my favorite historians. I'd recommend his Truman bio to you too. It's why I admire Truman more than FDR.

216 Vicious Babushka  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 9:05:22pm

Gilad Shalit, in spite of the horrendous conditions he endured while a prisoner of Hamas, seems to have maintained his humanity. Meanwhile, the 1,027 Palestinians who were exchanged for Shalit, are screaming for more kidnappings, more killings, more terrorism, even though they were held in much more civilized conditions than Shalit and committed horrible crimes.

217 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 9:05:35pm

re: #212 Atlas Fails

This is getting kind of intense...

I never imagined that people here at LGF would be actually excusing murder of children. I don't even see the point of debating this.

218 Obdicut  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 9:05:46pm

re: #211 palomino

In some extreme circumstances, what other option is there to rebel against an injustice?

You don't have to kill children. At no point is killing children a necessary part of a rebellion.

219 windsagio  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 9:05:55pm
220 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 9:06:18pm

re: #186 Obdicut

Murdering children is not justifiable. Especially if you think the holy spirit is talking to you and telling you that it's cool.

If you think the Holy Spirit is talking to you and telling you that it's cool, in truth, I think we'd be looking at a 'not guilty by reason of insanity' situation.

What that says about his followers, I do not know.

221 OhNoZombies!  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 9:06:57pm

re: #181 Obdicut

I agree with you. Two wrongs don't make a right.
But, I have never been a slave. If I were, I would probably have been taken away from my mother at an early age. I probably would have been sexually abused, and my babies very well may have been torn from my arms and sold. I don't know what that feels like, and I can't, for certain, say that I would be in a reasonable state of mind.
That's what I mean by perspective.
In 2008, igot a hold of a test they gave blacks in the voting lines during Jim Crow. The answers to the questions were impossible, and we, the young ones, half joked that if some black guy passed the test, he had better have on good running shoes...
You cannot imagine the pain in my grandma's eyes. It only lasted a second. I'm still ashamed...

222 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 9:07:16pm

re: #217 Sergey Romanov

I never imagined that people here at LGF would be actually excusing murder of children. I don't even see the point of debating this.

There is a difference between excusing and explaining.

223 Vicious Babushka  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 9:07:17pm

re: #217 Sergey Romanov

I never imagined that people here at LGF would be actually excusing murder of children. I don't even see the point of debating this.

I don't recall Holocaust survivors running around murdering German children at random. Do you?

So it is possible to maintain one's humanity in the midst of the most horrible suffering and injustice.

224 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 9:07:41pm

re: #222 ggt

There is a difference between excusing and explaining.

What happens here is both.

225 Atlas Fails  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 9:07:44pm

re: #215 HappyWarrior

Recommended. David McCullough is one of my favorite historians. I'd recommend his Truman bio to you too. It's why I admire Truman more than FDR.

I'll have to check it out. I confess to not knowing much about Truman. Then again, I didn't know much about Adams until I read McCollough's book.

226 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 9:08:46pm

re: #223 Alouette

There were actually survivors with mass murder plans (Abba Kovner etc.). Those were probably an exception though.

227 Gus  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 9:08:59pm

You shouldn't be looking at the license plate anyway! -- Cranky Old Guy

228 Obdicut  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 9:09:17pm

re: #220 SanFranciscoZionist

Really, no. The insanity defense would work if the Holy Spirit was telling him that by clubbing the kids in the head he wasn't actually hurting them, that this was an illusion. The insanity defense does not work when you know an action is wrong but you feel that it is justifiable because of a larger belief, even if that belief is, itself, nutty. The only questions for an insanity defense, in its current state, are A) Do you understand the difference between right and wrong and B) Were you so insane as to be under a compulsion and not your own will?

I am not a lawyer, etc.

229 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 9:09:45pm

re: #216 Alouette

Gilad Shalit, in spite of the horrendous conditions he endured while a prisoner of Hamas, seems to have maintained his humanity. Meanwhile, the 1,027 Palestinians who were exchanged for Shalit, are screaming for more kidnappings, more killings, more terrorism, even though they were held in much more civilized conditions than Shalit and committed horrible crimes.

And for those who under why there has not been a peace agreement between Israel and the Palestinians, Alouette's post is your answer. Shalit, despite all the cruelties he was subjected to, would make peace even now if it could be done. But the Palestinians persist in thinking him inferior because he is a Jew, and continue their path of hate and refusal.

230 palomino  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 9:09:58pm

A little thought experiment. A family of sadistic maniacs kidnaps you one day while you're at the mall. They take you home, lock you in the basement, physically and verbally abuse you, force you to work, rape you, beat you and never let you out.

After a few days/weeks/months of this, you realize that the only way to escape is to kill the dad, mom, and their two teenage kids (since they're in on the whole operation.) What would you do?

231 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 9:10:00pm

re: #224 Sergey Romanov

What happens here is both.

Treat a man like an animal . . .

Survival is a powerful instinct.

I can't judge Nat Turner, I can only work to see the such conditions are eradicated from the planet.

232 Ben G. Hazi  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 9:10:14pm

re: #139 freetoken

Sherman, Sheridan, and Grant would probably be found guilty of war crimes, by today's standard.

Men who were the modern torchbearers (pun intended) of "total war", especially Sherman.

233 goddamnedfrank  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 9:10:15pm

re: #202 Dark_Falcon

re: #182 windsagio

Sorry wind, but some things must be considered as always beyond the pale. I can understand (or at least try to understand) how Turner could have felt as he did, but to understand is distinct from to excuse. Someone who does what Turner did, no matter what the reason, must be forever removed from society. I would have no problem with lifetime confinement and then making their prison comfortable as can be safely done, but there are certain acts that cannot be tolerated ever.

I think your problem is that the murders weren't anonymous, they were up close and personal. Many innocent children have undoubtedly been killed by our country in recent history through various standoff weapons, carpet bombings, etc. and all you do is make excuses. Dead is dead.

234 Gus  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 9:10:32pm

Now hand me a beer son.

235 HappyWarrior  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 9:10:59pm

re: #225 Atlas Fails

I'll have to check it out. I confess to not knowing much about Truman. Then again, I didn't know much about Adams until I read McCollough's book.

You'll like it I think. He's sympathetic to Truman but not to the point where he's slobbering. He as you know is a very much take the good with the bad type historian but does usually have a positive pov of those he writes biographies of. Most of my presidential biography reading is 20th century: I've read Truman, H.W Brands' Traitor To His Class, and one on Wilson too. And I have read numerous Nixon books due to my research project. a couple years back.

236 OhNoZombies!  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 9:11:45pm

re: #203 SanFranciscoZionist

Oozy dynamite...Ha !

237 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 9:12:03pm

re: #209 Gus 802

Uh oh. What have I happened upon?

//

You have not answered my question WUB:

Do you think Beslan can be excused by the standards you set up? And if not, why?

238 windsagio  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 9:12:07pm

re: #233 goddamnedfrank

also seriously, to get a bit relative, but slaveowners weren't known to treat children exactly well.

239 Gus  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 9:12:34pm

I have an idea. Let's go to Russia and borrow an Su-30!

Behold the Hypnotoad.

240 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 9:13:07pm

re: #233 goddamnedfrank

That's a pretty lame retort. Dead is dead, but the question of intent is paramount.

241 Obdicut  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 9:13:11pm

re: #230 palomino

A little thought experiment. A family of sadistic maniacs kidnaps you one day while you're at the mall. They take you home, lock you in the basement, physically and verbally abuse you, force you to work, rape you, beat you and never let you out.

After a few days/weeks/months of this, you realize that the only way to escape is to kill the dad, mom, and their two teenage kids (since they're in on the whole operation.) What would you do?

That's not the situation, though. When did we start talking about 'teenagers' who are in on the whole operation? Do you think Nat Turner only killed those in their teens and up? Or that he only killed slaveowners?

242 Gus  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 9:13:16pm

re: #237 Dark_Falcon

You have not answered my question WUB:

Do you think Beslan can be excused by the standards you set up? And if not, why?

Err. 404

243 Atlas Fails  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 9:13:31pm

re: #228 Obdicut

Really, no. The insanity defense would work if the Holy Spirit was telling him that by clubbing the kids in the head he wasn't actually hurting them, that this was an illusion. The insanity defense does not work when you know an action is wrong but you feel that it is justifiable because of a larger belief, even if that belief is, itself, nutty. The only questions for an insanity defense, in its current state, are A) Do you understand the difference between right and wrong and B) Were you so insane as to be under a compulsion and not your own will?

I am not a lawyer, etc.

I'm no lawyer either, but I took a few classes on business and criminal law a couple years ago, and I'm pretty sure you're thinking of the M'Naughten Rule. It's been around since, like, the 1600s, and it states that for someone to be criminally insane, they have to be unable to distinguish right from wrong. Some states still use it as their insanity standard, but a lot have gotten rid of it in favor of broader and more modern codes.

244 windsagio  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 9:13:43pm

re: #237 Dark_Falcon

I think you missed him, from IM he had to go back and get some work done.

Speaking of which, I have to go get ready to spend the night taking care of disabled people.

245 Targetpractice  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 9:14:09pm

re: #239 Gus 802

I have an idea. Let's go to Russia and borrow an Su-30!

Behold the Hypnotoad.

Somehow, I think the Russian Air Force would have something to say about that.

246 palomino  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 9:14:12pm

re: #182 windsagio

to go a bit further, its easy for us to sit in our nice little upper/middle class homes and say what is or is not justifiable.

Especially when talking about things that happened 150 years ago under unimaginable circumstances.

Exactly. Who the hell are we to judge Nat Turner's methods? He lived in a fucking nightmare that most of us can't even imagine.

247 moderatelyradicalliberal  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 9:14:27pm

I would also like to add in reference to the children that were killed. For black people during that time, there really wasn't a such thing as a harmless or non-threatening white person. All white people had a power black people didn't. If I white person wanted to harm you, they could without consequence. If a white person accused you of something, you couldn't defend yourself against the accusation. If they wanted something from you they could take it and you had no recourse. A this was pretty much true until Jim Crow ended.

During the 50s my father's family lived next door to a junk yard and sometimes my father would play with the white yard owner's son. One day my father was playing with a toy airplane and the little white boy took it and wouldn't give it back. If he had been black my father would have fought the boy for his plane if he had too, but he knew hitting a white kid could mean trouble for him and his parents. The little white boy knew it too. So he just let him have it and went home. He got in trouble for "losing" his plane but he never told what really happened because there was nothing he or his parents could do about it. My father's father wouldn't have confronted the junk yard owner about it.

All white people, even children were more powerful and therefore dangerous to black people. Yes, again killing children is wrong, but don't presume that black slaves perceived white children as non-threatening. They had the real potential of being problematic as well.

248 Gus  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 9:14:56pm

Argh. You guys are writing these long paragraphs and I'm all ready to sing pirate songs.

249 Obdicut  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 9:15:04pm

Alright. This has been swell. I'm going to bed.

250 Atlas Fails  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 9:15:11pm

re: #235 HappyWarrior

You'll like it I think. He's sympathetic to Truman but not to the point where he's slobbering. He as you know is a very much take the good with the bad type historian but does usually have a positive pov of those he writes biographies of. Most of my presidential biography reading is 20th century: I've read Truman, H.W Brands' Traitor To His Class, and one on Wilson too. And I have read numerous Nixon books due to my research project. a couple years back.

Traitor to his Class is high on my reading list. Once things settle down a little for me, I'm hoping to get around to it.

251 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 9:15:26pm

re: #198 palomino

Yes, I know he had visions. It probably means he was insane, another reason I'm inclined to give him a break.

Sure, we can look at Turner from the rational standpoint of people who haven't been enslaved and know how to craft a message for maximum effect. And, from that standpoint, we can easily condemn him. Or we can imagine the kind of horrors he probably endured, the emotional instability to which that probably led, and then I think understand why he might want to kill white people. After all, white people were the only thing that stood between him and some level of human dignity.

I recall that people were shocked by the opening scenes of "Amistad", when the slaves kill the crew. I didn't understand that. It seemed a very simple and direct situation of self-defense.

Turner's situation was different from that in various ways, but the question that arises for me is: if I condemn Nat Turner (which won't actually do anyone any good or harm one way or another), what would I suggest he should have done? Seriously. I don't have an answer. So I look at this as someone with a history degree, I see what happened as best I can, and I try to understand how and why.

252 Obdicut  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 9:15:35pm

re: #248 Gus 802

Yo ho ho.

We're all going to die.

253 Gus  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 9:15:35pm

re: #245 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

Somehow, I think the Russian Air Force would have something to say about that.

No way man. I'd go in like James Coburn.

254 windsagio  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 9:15:56pm

One last thing before I go prep, Sergey, go look up Privilege as a concept in prejudice.

A lot of what you read will be REALLY annoying and obnoxious, but there's a really good point at the base of it and its something we all need to school ourselves to be aware of.

255 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 9:16:38pm

re: #233 goddamnedfrank

I think your problem is that the murders weren't anonymous, they were up close and personal. Many innocent children have undoubtedly been killed by our country in recent history through various standoff weapons, carpet bombings, etc. and all you do is make excuses. Dead is dead.

The thing is that those killing were not deliberate. And nowadays the US takes pains to make sure children are not killed. But at some point, you cannot allow the enemy's leaders to hide behind others and kill your people. America's military owes its greatest concern to Americans.

That having been said, yes part of it is that those murders were committed up close with contact weapons. In large part this because the use of those weapons meant that Turner and his followers had to deliberately target the children is order to kill them, rather than the children being 'collateral damage'.

256 goddamnedfrank  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 9:17:00pm

re: #240 Sergey Romanov

That's a pretty lame retort. Dead is dead, but the question of intent is paramount.

When has the question of intent made one iota of difference to the families of the dead in a societal conflict? Our main failure in the War on Terror is the inability to answer this question, resulting in the continuing multiplicative recruitment on the other side.

257 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 9:17:08pm

re: #207 Sergey Romanov

Yeah, I already got that children's heads on sticks don't bother you. Whatever.

won't someone think of the white master's children

258 Targetpractice  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 9:17:20pm

re: #253 Gus 802

No way man. I'd go in like James Coburn.

Well, just remember that when you fly, to think in Russian.

//

259 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 9:17:50pm

re: #254 windsagio

And this has what to do with child murder and justifications thereof?

260 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 9:18:33pm

re: #247 moderatelyradicalliberal

sergey should probably read this, but I suspect he will not, and instead he will think Of The Children

261 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 9:18:52pm

re: #244 windsagio

I think you missed him, from IM he had to go back and get some work done.

Speaking of which, I have to go get ready to spend the night taking care of disabled people.

I hadn't known. I didn't check the list of users online.

262 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 9:18:59pm

re: #256 goddamnedfrank

More demagoguery. We're not talking about "iotas of difference" (effects on the victims) but about justification of acts.

263 HappyWarrior  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 9:19:38pm

re: #250 Atlas Fails

Traitor to his Class is high on my reading list. Once things settle down a little for me, I'm hoping to get around to it.

Brands is balanced too. My preferred bios are those who are balanced or those who kenw the subject hence why I own Arthur Schlessinger Jr's RFK bio. I really don't like total hatchet jobs even if hte subject is someone I don't like or oh my god he's awesome types either. I've strugled finding a good, encompassing Nixon bio that is balanced. I hear Stephen Ambrose had a good trilogy but I really don't like multiple volume books. But I could always try since I have Simon Sebag Montefore's two part Stalin biography which for you Russian history buffs is good stuff because he really covers his childhood and young adulthood well. Had an excellent conversation with my Russian history professor about that book when I went to his office a few weeks back.

264 Gus  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 9:19:43pm

Don't look now boys. But I think I detect a squabble.

Check retro engines!

265 moderatelyradicalliberal  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 9:20:19pm

re: #230 palomino

A little thought experiment. A family of sadistic maniacs kidnaps you one day while you're at the mall. They take you home, lock you in the basement, physically and verbally abuse you, force you to work, rape you, beat you and never let you out.

After a few days/weeks/months of this, you realize that the only way to escape is to kill the dad, mom, and their two teenage kids (since they're in on the whole operation.) What would you do?

I'd kill them all and let God sort them out. But if there was an infant or small child somewhere in the house I wouldn't kill him/her.

266 Kragar  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 9:21:14pm

I think you guys are overlooking a serious question:

Are the victims dirty liberal commies or Upstanding God-fearing conservatives?

267 CuriousLurker  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 9:21:21pm

re: #168 moderatelyradicalliberal

Like slavery, killing children and collective punishment are all evil so I wouldn't call Nat Turner a hero. I will say that Nat Turner's action gives validity to the notion that slavery dehumanized slaves and slave owners alike. The Nat Turner, those weren't children weren't children, they were future slave owners. I saw documentary in which a grown giraffe stomped a baby lion cub to death. Sure it was harmless, but baby lions grow up and become stone cold predators. The giraffe eliminated a future threat. Nat Turner was dehumanized enough to think like that giraffe. It wasn't enough to take revenge on adult white people or just white slave owners because he hated all of them. Had I been a slave, I might have too.

I saw the same with a lioness that began killing any hyena she could catch after losing a cub to one.

That being said, I've also seen the bolded part used in exactly the same way to justify the killing of Israelis by Palestinians—i.e. military service is compulsory for every Israeli over 18 years of age (with some exceptions), ergo every man, women, or child is a future soldier and therefore fair game.

I have a big problem with that. I'm not saying I think that's your position, or even that I can't fathom how a person could become so filled with rage & hatred over being brutalized that they would do such a thing, I just think it's wrong.

268 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 9:23:54pm

re: #201 Atlas Fails

I never watched the whole miniseries, but I've seen bits and pieces. I'd like to get around to renting it sometime.

It's very good.

I wish they'd had a scene based on the bit from the bio where Sally Hemings shows up at the Adams' London house, but I guess they thought that would be too sensationalistic.

269 palomino  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 9:25:13pm

re: #218 Obdicut

You don't have to kill children. At no point is killing children a necessary part of a rebellion.

I have mixed feelings about Turner. He had the courage to lead a rebellion, but he went too far and killed children. But, in his defense, I would argue that he probably lacked "proper moral guidance" at a young age, in addition to witnessing atrocities that most of us can barely imagine.

During war children are sometimes killed. I'm guessing Turner thought he was at war. This is not a justification, but I'm not going to judge Turner in purely black/white terms, as if no aggravating cirumstances existed.

270 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 9:25:23pm

Have a great evening all!

271 HappyWarrior  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 9:25:35pm

re: #268 SanFranciscoZionist

It's very good.

I wish they'd had a scene based on the bit from the bio where Sally Hemings shows up at the Adams' London house, but I guess they thought that would be too sensationalistic.

Are you familiar with the story that Sally was a dead ringer for Martha (TJ's wife)? Not sure how true it is but the story is that Mr. Wayles (Martha's father) was also the father of Sally.

272 Gus  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 9:26:14pm

re: #270 ggt

Have a great evening all!

Image: Hypnotoad-1.gif

273 Targetpractice  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 9:27:00pm

re: #272 Gus 802

Image: Hypnotoad-1.gif

*blank-eyed, monotone* All glory to the Hypnotoad.

274 [deleted]  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 9:27:51pm
275 moderatelyradicalliberal  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 9:28:08pm

re: #267 CuriousLurker

I saw the same with a lioness that began killing any hyena she could catch after losing a cub to one.

That being said, I've also seen the bolded part used in exactly the same way to justify the killing of Israelis by Palestinians—i.e. military service is compulsory for every Israeli over 18 years of age (with some exceptions), ergo every man, women, or child is a future soldier and therefore fair game.

I have a big problem with that. I'm not saying I think that's your position, or even that I can't fathom how a person could become so filled with rage & hatred over being brutalized that they would do such a thing, I just think it's wrong.

It's unquestionably wrong, but I'm grateful to never have had certain experiences because I have no idea what I would become in the aftermath. Victimization can make a person stronger, better and more empathetic. It can also warp people and make them worse human beings than they were before or would have been otherwise. Some people experience abuse and would never harm another person and some people experience abuse and become abusers themselves. I'm just humble enough to admit that as a person who's never really been mistreated or abused by anyone that I have no idea who I'd be if I had.

276 Gus  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 9:29:03pm

re: #273 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

*blank-eyed, monotone* All glory to the Hypnotoad.

Note the date. From now on we only praise the all knowing and glorious Hypnotoad™!

I hereby renounce thy Gravel™!

277 Atlas Fails  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 9:29:18pm

re: #268 SanFranciscoZionist

It's very good.

I wish they'd had a scene based on the bit from the bio where Sally Hemings shows up at the Adams' London house, but I guess they thought that would be too sensationalistic.

At the risk of sounding creepy, God I wish you would have been my history teacher.

278 palomino  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 9:30:51pm

re: #241 Obdicut

That's not the situation, though. When did we start talking about 'teenagers' who are in on the whole operation? Do you think Nat Turner only killed those in their teens and up? Or that he only killed slaveowners?

Sure, and there are other differences, like the victim in my hypothetical wasn't degraded from the moment he was born...and he didn't have to watch similar atrocities happen to his family.

I think it's likely, however, that an otherwise sane person born into Turner's situation might begin to think that all white people were evil. Thus the moral reticence to kill wouldn't exist.

279 CuriousLurker  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 9:31:02pm

re: #275 moderatelyradicalliberal

It's unquestionably wrong, but I'm grateful to never have had certain experiences because I have no idea what I would become in the aftermath. Victimization can make a person stronger, better and more empathetic. It can also warp people and make them worse human beings than they were before or would have been otherwise. Some people experience abuse and would never harm another person and some people experience abuse and become abusers themselves. I'm just humble enough to admit that as a person who's never really been mistreated or abused by anyone that I have no idea who I'd be if I had.

Yes, we're extremely fortunate that we live in a time & place where it's highly unlikely that we'd ever be personally tested in such a way.

280 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 9:31:03pm

re: #271 HappyWarrior

Are you familiar with the story that Sally was a dead ringer for Martha (TJ's wife)? Not sure how true it is but the story is that Mr. Wayles (Martha's father) was also the father of Sally.

Yes, the story is that she was Martha's half sister, and that they looked alike.

Which sort of fits my impression of Jefferson--I think he was probably the kind of guy who fell for the same woman over and over again.

Apparently Abigail was shocked when Sally showed up, with one of the Jefferson girls in tow. She felt Sally was much too young (she would have been fourteen or so at the time) to be taking care of anyone, and she'd never had a slave living under her roof--but what was she going to do, send the kid to a hotel?

281 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 9:31:03pm

re: #275 moderatelyradicalliberal

It's unquestionably wrong, but I'm grateful to never have had certain experiences because I have no idea what I would become in the aftermath. Victimization can make a person stronger, better and more empathetic. It can also warp people and make them worse human beings than they were before or would have been otherwise. Some people experience abuse and would never harm another person and some people experience abuse and become abusers themselves. I'm just humble enough to admit that as a person who's never really been mistreated or abused by anyone that I have no idea who I'd be if I had.

I think this song sums it up for me:

282 moderatelyradicalliberal  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 9:31:09pm

re: #269 palomino

I have mixed feelings about Turner. He had the courage to lead a rebellion, but he went too far and killed children. But, in his defense, I would argue that he probably lacked "proper moral guidance" at a young age, in addition to witnessing atrocities that most of us can barely imagine.

During war children are sometimes killed. I'm guessing Turner thought he was at war. This is not a justification, but I'm not going to judge Turner in purely black/white terms, as if no aggravating cirumstances existed.

I thought about that too. In his mind, his enemy had already laid the ground ruled of the war and children were fair game. There was already so much evil that had been normalized and allowed. I guess I really just can't imagine it.

283 windsagio  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 9:31:27pm

re: #247 moderatelyradicalliberal

I would also like to add in reference to the children that were killed. For black people during that time, there really wasn't a such thing as a harmless or non-threatening white person. All white people had a power black people didn't. If I white person wanted to harm you, they could without consequence. If a white person accused you of something, you couldn't defend yourself against the accusation. If they wanted something from you they could take it and you had no recourse. A this was pretty much true until Jim Crow ended.

During the 50s my father's family lived next door to a junk yard and sometimes my father would play with the white yard owner's son. One day my father was playing with a toy airplane and the little white boy took it and wouldn't give it back. If he had been black my father would have fought the boy for his plane if he had too, but he knew hitting a white kid could mean trouble for him and his parents. The little white boy knew it too. So he just let him have it and went home. He got in trouble for "losing" his plane but he never told what really happened because there was nothing he or his parents could do about it. My father's father wouldn't have confronted the junk yard owner about it.

All white people, even children were more powerful and therefore dangerous to black people. Yes, again killing children is wrong, but don't presume that black slaves perceived white children as non-threatening. They had the real potential of being problematic as well.

Quoted in full because it deserves quoting in full.

It's always painful when reality slaps its dick in your face like that.

284 Gus  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 9:31:35pm
285 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 9:32:35pm

re: #274 MikeySDCA

O.T. Confession

Since at age six I proudly wore an "I Like Ike" button, I have never felt enthusiasm for any of the twits, lames, and scoundrels who have offered themselves for the presidency. Am I alone?

I am too young to have worn an "I Like Ike" button as anything except an ironic retro statement.

I'm also of the generation that imprinted on Bill Clinton like a baby duck, so no...

286 HappyWarrior  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 9:33:18pm

re: #277 Atlas Fails

At the risk of sounding creepy, God I wish you would have been my history teacher.

I say this as a full compliment to SFZ, she's the Frank McCourt of history teachers. Makes her subject interesting and knows how to tell a great story. I love history but I think I'd struggle to communicate my love of history my students the way SFZ tells about her teaching methods.

287 windsagio  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 9:33:19pm

re: #283 windsagio

oops forgot part.

The ugly realization is that any slave revolt would have had to be a race war. Its an ugly concept and something we don't like to think about, but unless the white government finally decided to do something on the slaves behalf (which they were eventually forced to against their will), any real action for freedom would by default be on that basis.

288 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 9:33:57pm

re: #286 HappyWarrior

I say this as a full compliment to SFZ, she's the Frank McCourt of history teachers. Makes her subject interesting and knows how to tell a great story. I love history but I think I'd struggle to communicate my love of history my students the way SFZ tells about her teaching methods.

Blushing over here.

289 Atlas Fails  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 9:35:55pm

re: #286 HappyWarrior

I say this as a full compliment to SFZ, she's the Frank McCourt of history teachers. Makes her subject interesting and knows how to tell a great story. I love history but I think I'd struggle to communicate my love of history my students the way SFZ tells about her teaching methods.

I'm thinking of going into teaching, but I just don't know how I'll be able to engage students who aren't interested in history. I liked most of my history teachers, but I also enjoyed stuff that a lot of other kids found boring.

290 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 9:36:03pm

re: #288 SanFranciscoZionist

Blushing over here.

Also, I mostly teach English. Albeit, with a history angle, 'cause that's what I love.

291 windsagio  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 9:36:48pm

re: #267 CuriousLurker

I gotta say, any comparisons to the current Israel/Palestine situation are entirely specious (and I note that you're arguing against that comparison).

The situations are so massively different that any talk of 'justification' or anything else is essentially meaningless... to the point that it being a bad reason in Jerusalem in no way means it would have been a bad reason in say Georga circa 1850.

Edit: and... off to work. Y'all have a good night!

292 HappyWarrior  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 9:39:25pm

re: #290 SanFranciscoZionist

Also, I mostly teach English. Albeit, with a history angle, 'cause that's what I love.

Sounds like how my 11th grade English class was which was when I started falling in love with English. I've been a history buff from the day my grandparents gave me a rpesidents book. But back to the McCourt comp, I mean that, your stories are both funny and give me an insider's look at what it means to be a teacher. Very few of my relatives have taught so I never got to hear how it was first hand.

293 Targetpractice  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 9:39:28pm

re: #276 Gus 802

Note the date. From now on we only praise the all knowing and glorious Hypnotoad™!

A hereby renounce thy Gravel™!

294 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 9:39:51pm

This CNN story heads their main US page tonight. It is so on point for our discussion tonight that I must post it:

Teen murder suspect carried 'backpack of hatred'

Editor's note: This story contains language that some readers may consider offensive. For more on this story, watch "Mississippi Still Burning?" on CNN Presents, Sunday, October 23, at 8 p.m. and 11 p.m. ET.

Brandon, Mississippi (CNN) -- To get to Brandon, you have to drive across the Pearl River, a boundary that seems to separate black Mississippi from white.

In the town's center, a monument stands honoring the confederate soldiers who fought in the Civil War.

This mostly white town in mostly white Rankin County is about a 30-minute drive from Jackson, Mississippi. It's here in Brandon that some residents say a gang of teenagers expressed their strong racial prejudice -- sometimes through violence.

These residents say the teens were friends with and often led by Deryl Dedmon, now 19 and facing capital murder and hate crime charges for the killing of James Anderson, a black man, who died after he was beaten and run over by a truck in Jackson, according to police. Dedmon has pleaded not guilty and his attorney has refused to answer CNN's repeated requests for comment.

Another teen, John Aaron Rice, was charged with simple assault. He has not entered a plea. The other five teens who were there have not been arrested or charged, though officials say they may still be indicted.

Parents and students who knew Dedmon tell CNN it was widely known that he expressed a hatred for blacks, white people who had black friends, and anyone he thought was gay. And they say he had a history of harassing teens at his high school.

CNN has learned that Department of Justice investigators have uncovered two other possible incidents where groups of white Rankin County teens, including Dedmon, have sought out and attacked a black person.

Jordan Richardson, 17, says he was bullied, beaten and harassed by Dedmon and his friends two years ago, partly because he had black friends.

"He had a look of no conscience," Jordan said about Dedmon. "When we would get into our altercations ... there was never any show of emotion or anything -- anything. Deryl always, I think, just carried around this backpack of hatred."

I included the Editor's Note, as I felt it important.

295 Gus  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 9:39:56pm

Heavy snow in the mountains on Wednesday (+/-). That will end up going to Lake Powell some day.

296 Kragar  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 9:40:17pm

Saw a great OWS street sign today:

"We're not trying to start class warfare,
We're trying to end class warfare."

297 Gus  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 9:40:49pm

re: #293 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

[Video]

Like a wood concrete forming stake through da heartz!

//

298 Gus  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 9:41:24pm

re: #296 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Saw a great OWS street sign today:

"We're not trying to start class warfare,
We're trying to end a class warfare."

Drink!

299 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 9:41:30pm

re: #296 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Saw a great OWS street sign today:

"We're not trying to start class warfare,
We're trying to end a class warfare."

What the Hell does that mean?

300 Gus  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 9:41:55pm

re: #299 Dark_Falcon

What the Hell does that mean?

Who knows! Just drink!

301 Gus  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 9:42:24pm

re: #299 Dark_Falcon

What the Hell does that mean?

Pretend you anthropologist.

302 uncah91  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 9:43:02pm

Late to the party, but I'll just say that Turner can be held individually responsible for his crimes.

But when you look at the number of people involved, and the brutality they endured, you have to know that someone like Turner would be produced. Focusing on blame of Turner isn't like missing the forest for the trees, it's like missing the forest for one piece of lichen on one tree.

And comparing it to Holocaust survivors is way off base, it's more like Jews currently in a camp killing all the Germans at that camp (men, women and children).

303 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 9:43:07pm

re: #299 Dark_Falcon

Warfare of 1% v 99%?

304 HappyWarrior  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 9:43:40pm

re: #289 Atlas Fails

I'm thinking of going into teaching, but I just don't know how I'll be able to engage students who aren't interested in history. I liked most of my history teachers, but I also enjoyed stuff that a lot of other kids found boring.

Yeah that's how I was too. I was the kid that brought his history textbook to bed to read. I didn't do that with any other textbook.I try using humor to make it easier for people but that generally includes either A me getting a little tipsy or B being inappropriate. Somehow I don't think calling Warren G. Harding a horndog would go over good with parents.My peers always wanted me on their team when we did study Jeopardy though. What everyone who's known me since I was a kid knows me is the kid who he was 5.

305 Gus  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 9:45:16pm

Life is like going on a hunt.

Anyone care for some chewing tobacco?

[Horse sounds with fade on a dobro.]

306 moderatelyradicalliberal  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 9:45:33pm

re: #294 Dark_Falcon

This CNN story heads their main US page tonight. It is so on point for our discussion tonight that I must post it:

Teen murder suspect carried 'backpack of hatred'

I included the Editor's Note, as I felt it important.

I went to college in Florida and would drive back to Texas for the Holidays. I didn't even like driving through Mississippi. The racism is still strong and the poverty for black and white people is shameful.

307 freetoken  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 9:46:36pm

re: #305 Gus 802

Life is like going on a hunt.

Heh, that's on topic:

Rick Perry goes hunting with Steve King in Iowa

308 darthstar  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 9:47:01pm
309 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 9:47:20pm

re: #307 freetoken

Did any of them go Cheney?

310 Kragar  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 9:47:24pm

re: #305 Gus 802

Life is like going on a hunt.

You sit in the woods for hours, freezing your balls off until you say fuck it and buy burgers on your way home?

311 Gus  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 9:47:29pm

re: #307 freetoken

Heh, that's on topic:

Rick Perry goes hunting with Steve King in Iowa

Luckily no one was injured.

//

312 freetoken  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 9:47:51pm

re: #309 Sergey Romanov

Many are asking that question.

re: #311 Gus 802


Not even a pheasant.

313 Gus  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 9:47:55pm

re: #310 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

You sit in the woods for hours, freezing your balls off until you say fuck it and buy burgers on your way home?

Something like that. Uh huh. Skoal?

314 Gus  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 9:48:22pm

re: #309 Sergey Romanov

Did any of them go Cheney?

See #311.

315 HappyWarrior  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 9:48:39pm

re: #307 freetoken

Heh, that's on topic:

Rick Perry goes hunting with Steve King in Iowa

Look honey, it's a pair of douchebags hunting. Isn't evolution a wonder? Also does Perry's minister know about this? Crazy Steve is one of those Satanists Catholics.

316 darthstar  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 9:48:50pm

re: #307 freetoken

Heh, that's on topic:

Rick Perry goes hunting with Steve King in Iowa

Did Perry use his laser sights? Fucker's a lying cocksucker...and King's a douchebag...good news is that neither will ever be President.

317 [deleted]  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 9:48:56pm
318 Atlas Fails  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 9:49:09pm

re: #304 HappyWarrior

Yeah that's how I was too. I was the kid that brought his history textbook to bed to read. I didn't do that with any other textbook.I try using humor to make it easier for people but that generally includes either A me getting a little tipsy or B being inappropriate. Somehow I don't think calling Warren G. Harding a horndog would go over good with parents.My peers always wanted me on their team when we did study Jeopardy though. What everyone who's known me since I was a kid knows me is the kid who he was 5.

I was a good English student, a decent science student, and a mediocre math student, but boy did I ever do well in history/government classes. I once left my class's valedictorian completely tongue-tied during a debate about gay rights in our honors civics class. Good times.

319 Kragar  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 9:49:24pm

re: #312 freetoken

Many are asking that question.

re: #311 Gus 802

Not even a pheasant.

"I thought you said we were hunting peasants... Fuck this, I'm going home."

320 Gus  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 9:49:51pm

re: #307 freetoken

Heh, that's on topic:

Rick Perry goes hunting with Steve King in Iowa

Nah I don't know. So seriously. Perry? You know he means well sometimes. He was thinking about women with the HPV thing. He's thinking about the Latino population. But he's just not ready for prime time. He was meant to be governor for life.

//

321 darthstar  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 9:50:03pm

re: #315 HappyWarrior

Look honey, it's a pair of douchebags hunting. Isn't evolution a wonder? Also does Perry's minister know about this? Crazy Steve is one of those Satanists Catholics.

I can't believe you called them douchebags eleven seconds ahead of me.

322 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 9:50:48pm

re: #300 Gus 802

Who knows! Just drink!

All I'm drinking is diet soda, Gus. I do not keep alcohol in my home.

323 Gus  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 9:51:21pm

re: #322 Dark_Falcon

All I'm drinking is diet soda, Gus. I do not keep alcohol in my home.

Hey. I've gone through a couple of six packs of Diet Coke or Pepsi. That works. Drink!

324 [deleted]  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 9:51:36pm
325 HappyWarrior  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 9:51:44pm

re: #321 darthstar

I can't believe you called them douchebags eleven seconds ahead of me.

What did you expect me to call them nice gentlemen :)

326 freetoken  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 9:52:16pm

re: #320 Gus 802

Perry and King... hunting in SW Iowa for pheasant.

Not like the good ol' days. I remember way back when I was young that TV would show Bing Crosby and Phil Harris going hunting in that area for pheasants.

From Crosby and Harris to Perry and King. How America has fallen.

327 darthstar  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 9:52:42pm

re: #322 Dark_Falcon

All I'm drinking is diet soda, Gus. I do not keep alcohol in my home.

I'm never visiting your casa.

328 palomino  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 9:52:44pm

re: #316 darthstar

Did Perry use his laser sights? Fucker's a lying cocksucker...and King's a douchebag...good news is that neither will ever be President.

I hope you're right about Perry. But the gop base has had 4 years to get to like Romney, and they still just aren't that into him. Everyone else in the field is a complete joke or they're getting no support (Johnson, Huntsman).

329 Gus  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 9:53:01pm

re: #324 MikeySDCA

You have my sympathy.

Whisky here. Almost done. Got a pint in the fridge. Nothing major. 1/2 pint or the W and 1 pint of the beer (maybe).

330 OhNoZombies!  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 9:53:27pm

re: #306 moderatelyradicalliberal

Absolutely. I saw black people living in "houses" that could have easily fit in with the slave quarters on a plantation. It was shocking to these northern eyes.

Another shocker was when, in 1990, the hotel my family stayed at was across the street from David Duke's headquarters during his run for the Senate.

331 Gus  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 9:54:18pm

Sorry if I've been a little douchey sometimes lately. Don't ask why.

332 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 9:54:24pm

re: #327 darthstar

I'm never visiting your casa.

That's fine. Alcohol is expensive, and there are other things I need to spend my money on. No slur against others who make different choices, my choice is simply what works best for me.

333 darthstar  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 9:54:45pm

re: #299 Dark_Falcon

What the Hell does that mean?

I think, in all seriousness, it means the OWS movement is trying to end the war on the poor that the wealthy have been waging with prejudice.

334 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 9:54:52pm

re: #331 Gus 802

Sorry if I've been a little douchey sometimes lately. Don't ask why.

Why?

335 Gus  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 9:55:30pm

re: #334 Sergey Romanov

Why?

Thwack!

You know you wanted it.

//

336 darthstar  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 9:55:41pm

re: #332 Dark_Falcon

That's fine. Alcohol is expensive, and there are other things I need to spend my money on. No slur against others who make different choices, my choice is simply what works best for me.

Mescaline...I get it...Good for you!

337 freetoken  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 9:56:24pm

"The American Sportsman" was the name of the TV show, and I think Curt Gowdy was involved somehow. Anyway, Crosby used to show up on that program, and Harris was his buddy.

At least they could sing if there were no pheasants to hunt. Same can't be said for Perry and King.

338 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 9:56:36pm

re: #335 Gus 802

Thwack!

You know you wanted it.

//

Parents find S/M paraphernalia in their kid's closet. "Well, it seems spankin' him won't do any good..."

339 [deleted]  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 9:56:55pm
340 darthstar  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 9:57:25pm

re: #339 MikeySDCA

There is much to be said for cheap vodka.

and a couple of buttons of peyote.

341 Atlas Fails  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 9:57:35pm

re: #320 Gus 802

Nah I don't know. So seriously. Perry? You know he means well sometimes. He was thinking about women with the HPV thing. He's thinking about the Latino population. But he's just not ready for prime time. He was meant to be governor for life.

//

Can you imagine that conversation?

Perry: So how about those fucking Muslims, right?

King: I know, all this PC bullshit is so leaving us open to terrorism.

...

King: So, how's the campaign going?

Perry: (long pause)...so...uh...how about those fucking Muslims, right!

King: I know!

Perry: And abortion! I mean, why is that legal?

King: Totes...

342 Gus  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 9:58:04pm

re: #338 Sergey Romanov

Parents find S/M paraphernalia in their kid's closet. "Well, it seems spankin' him won't do any good..."

Hey. My mom was from the outskirts of Buenos Aires. Her folks were from farm country in Spain near Portugal.

I felt it.

343 HappyWarrior  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 9:58:22pm

re: #339 MikeySDCA

There is much to be said for cheap vodka.

"What is crap, Alex?"
But I don't know if you're talking Smirnoff or something really cheap like Burnetts aka the one thing I will not miss form college parties.

344 darthstar  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 9:58:42pm

re: #341 Atlas Fails

A hidden mic in the golf cart could provide for weeks of plausible deniability enertainment on the news.

345 [deleted]  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 9:59:32pm
346 Gus  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 9:59:34pm

My God. A Guinness stout is beautiful.

347 darthstar  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 9:59:42pm

re: #344 darthstar

A hidden mic in the golf cart could provide for weeks of plausible deniability enertainment on the news.

Hunting, golf...same fucking thing with these guys...Ha!

348 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 10:00:01pm

re: #346 Gus 802

My God. A Guinness stout is beautiful.

Meh. Burnt coffee. /

349 darthstar  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 10:00:13pm

re: #346 Gus 802

My God. A Guinness stout is beautiful.

Had one for lunch...or with lunch...today...love a pint of Guinness.

350 Gus  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 10:00:27pm

re: #348 Sergey Romanov

Meh. Burnt coffee. /

I LOOOOOVVE burnt coffee.

//

351 darthstar  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 10:00:31pm

okay...bed time...see you all in the morning.

352 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 10:00:45pm

re: #331 Gus 802

Sorry if I've been a little douchey sometimes lately. Don't ask why.

I had a moment like that today. It was a very hard day for me today, and I seemingly could not do anything right. Coupled with my inability during the week to help my father finish a major home project (due mostly to repeatedly getting decisions (where I work, a 'decision' means when we get a potential customer to agree to have us send him or her information on an upcoming event we are running. The sale happens later.) right before 5pm), I was so frustrated that I was fully manic for about 5 minutes. I was snapping at people and had to go be alone so I could scream. The frustration was that bad. After that I calmed down and apologized to those I'd snapped at for being irrational. I'm better now.

353 freetoken  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 10:01:08pm

Perry couldn't do this:

354 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 10:01:22pm

re: #333 darthstar

I think, in all seriousness, it means the OWS movement is trying to end the war on the poor that the wealthy have been waging with prejudice.

I do not agree with that assessment.

355 Gus  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 10:01:36pm

re: #349 darthstar

Had one for lunch...or with lunch...today...love a pint of Guinness.

Can't skimp on the food. Safeway had some Dove Bars on sale too. Gulp.

[Homer Simpson eating noises.]

356 [deleted]  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 10:01:51pm
357 HappyWarrior  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 10:03:35pm

re: #346 Gus 802

My God. A Guinness stout is beautiful.

Start the night with one and end it with one. Shit the Irishman who's a manager at the campus cafeteria called me the Guinness man because I'd wear my Guinness hoody and the bartenders at my haunts are starting to serve it to me without asking. And Obama wasn't lying folks, it's better in Ireland.

358 goddamnedfrank  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 10:03:41pm

re: #354 Dark_Falcon

I do not agree with that assessment.

So you're okay with the bottom 40% of this country having only 0.3% of its wealth, that seems like an appropriate distribution to you?

359 OhNoZombies!  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 10:04:20pm

re: #346 Gus 802

The hubby loves the stuff -- calls it a burger and fries in a pint. I sat blech!
Oh, and black hops in the teeth ain't what I would consider beautiful.
:)

360 Gus  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 10:05:28pm

re: #359 OhNoZombies!

The hubby loves the stuff -- calls it a burger and fries in a pint. I sat blech!
Oh, and black hops in the teeth ain't what I would consider beautiful.
:)

It's worth it!

361 CuriousLurker  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 10:05:36pm

re: #306 moderatelyradicalliberal

I went to college in Florida and would drive back to Texas for the Holidays. I didn't even like driving through Mississippi. The racism is still strong and the poverty for black and white people is shameful.

One afternoon years ago I had a passenger, a black woman, who had paid me to drive her & her children to Port Lavaca. About halfway there we were passing through a small town and she pointed to a grassy area to the right of an intersection we were approaching. "Do you see that spot right there?" she asked. "Yes," I replied. "When I was a little girl the KKK used to have this big yellow school bus that they would park there every Sunday to hand out their pamphlets."

I gulped and joked with her that I REALLY could've lived without knowing that since the drive back would be after dark and I'd be alone. In my hijab. We laughed about it even though it really wasn't funny as I'd had someone in a pick-up truck outside a small Texas town try to force me off the road at night once on another out of town trip (that one was before I was Muslim, but I was about 6 months pregnant with my son, so I guess I don't need to point out how terrifying it was).

362 OhNoZombies!  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 10:05:43pm

re: #359 OhNoZombies!

sat = say

363 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 10:07:55pm

re: #359 OhNoZombies!

The hubby loves the stuff -- calls it a burger and fries in a pint. I sat blech!
Oh, and black hops in the teeth ain't what I would consider beautiful.
:)

My mother's comment, the time I got her to take a sip, was, "It's more like food than I imagined."

I noticed that in the famous pictures, Michelle has a glass--because it wouldn't do to have the First Lady drinking a pint. Not at all lady-like.

364 OhNoZombies!  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 10:08:31pm

re: #360 Gus 802

That's what he says.
Give me an ice cold Stella, or Hoegaarden & I'm good !

365 HappyWarrior  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 10:10:02pm

re: #359 OhNoZombies!

The hubby loves the stuff -- calls it a burger and fries in a pint. I sat blech!
Oh, and black hops in the teeth ain't what I would consider beautiful.
:)

People seem to love or hate it in my observation. I call it a bipolar beer becasue of that.

366 Gus  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 10:10:34pm

See. One thing I've learned in life. Even though I'm an atheist. Sometimes I find myself having more in common with Christians than I do atheists. Think about that. Since most people will tell you that we atheists are dogmatic.re: #364 OhNoZombies!

That's what he says.
Give me an ice cold Stella, or Hoegaarden & I'm good !

I don't care if it's shaken or stirred.
'Long as it's got that alcohol.
Riding on the dashboard of my ca...

No wait. Wrong song.

367 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 10:11:02pm

re: #358 goddamnedfrank

So you're okay with the bottom 40% of this country having only 0.3% of its wealth, that seems like an appropriate distribution to you?

I disagree with the idea that the rich are 'waging war on the poor'. I'm not going to get into complex economic issues right now. It's after midnight here in Illinois and I'm just too tired to fight right now.

368 freetoken  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 10:12:16pm

re: #367 Dark_Falcon

I disagree with the idea that the rich are 'waging war on the poor'.

Perhaps a verb tense issue. Given it is over, past perfect might be more appropriate.

369 OhNoZombies!  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 10:13:45pm

re: #363 SanFranciscoZionist

I couldn't get the stuff down!
I can't even imagine it at room temp--gag! Plus i've always thought of Guiness as a guy thing, so I guess a glass girly's it up sort of.

370 HappyWarrior  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 10:13:52pm

I am an old fashion type when it comes to my drinking. I like stuff like whiskey, bourbon, etc and I don't do chasers usually which shocks some of the people I drink with. Most of my favorite beers are imports though but if I had to choose an American one, it's probably Rolling Rock that or the Coors Light silver bullets when I am on a budget.

371 freetoken  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 10:14:33pm

All you lushes might appreciate this one... from 1944:

372 HappyWarrior  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 10:14:45pm

re: #369 OhNoZombies!

I couldn't get the stuff down!
I can't even imagine it at room temp--gag! Plus i've always thought of Guiness as a guy thing, so I guess a glass girly's it up sort of.

One of my lady friends loves it. but she's a fellow Celtophile.

373 Gus  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 10:16:43pm

Ugh. Gotta flush the cache. Berb.

374 Kragar  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 10:17:14pm

re: #373 Gus 802

Ugh. Gotta flush the cache. Berb.

Try more fiber, it should help.

375 OhNoZombies!  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 10:19:21pm

re: #372 HappyWarrior

She likes it warm?

376 HappyWarrior  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 10:21:59pm

re: #375 OhNoZombies!

She likes it warm?

Nah, like me, we usually get it cold and on tap. Actually though Guinness isn't my favorite stout, another one Murphy's is but because it's pretty hard to find at most places here outside Irish themed pubs, I usually go with Guinness.

377 Gus  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 10:22:39pm

re: #374 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Try more fiber, it should help.

Yep. Or some MOBO with pipes.

378 Kragar  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 10:23:10pm

re: #375 OhNoZombies!

She likes it warm?

YOU BET SHE DOES!!!

379 OhNoZombies!  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 10:23:54pm

re: #376 HappyWarrior

Well, I'll admit, it is pretty after it's poured properly.

380 OhNoZombies!  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 10:24:39pm

re: #378 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

I left the door wide open didn't I.

381 Kragar  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 10:26:18pm

re: #380 OhNoZombies!

I left the door wide open didn't I.

Yup.

382 OhNoZombies!  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 10:27:45pm

re: #381 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

:)

383 Gus  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 10:28:11pm
384 HappyWarrior  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 10:28:34pm

re: #379 OhNoZombies!

Well, I'll admit, it is pretty after it's poured properly.

Yeah it is. My dad thinks I am a beer snob though. I remind him that he just liked drinking cheap. I do like trying new things though. If I had a "sweet" alcohol of choice, it would be hard cider. I like it 1000000X more than stuff like Mike's Hardwhatever.

385 Daniel Ballard  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 10:28:54pm

Took a little macro photography break.... Fire and water.

386 OhNoZombies!  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 10:34:27pm

re: #384 HappyWarrior

I might be a little snobby about my adult beverages as well. No Champipple for me!
The older I get, the less I like the sweet stuff. It all tastes like cough medicine.

387 HappyWarrior  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 10:36:45pm

re: #386 OhNoZombies!

I might be a little snobby about my adult beverages as well. No Champipple for me!
The older I get, the less I like the sweet stuff. It all tastes like cough medicine.

I thinki it's becasue I have quasi hipster blood. Kind of kidding but I want to drink something uh good and not just to get trashed. I mean I don't buy really really expensive rare whiskeys but I like having a bottle of Jameson or Tullamore Dew handy.

388 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 10:38:45pm

Goodnight, all.

389 Kragar  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 10:40:53pm

re: #387 HappyWarrior

I thinki it's becasue I have quasi hipster blood. Kind of kidding but I want to drink something uh good and not just to get trashed. I mean I don't buy really really expensive rare whiskeys but I like having a bottle of Jameson or Tullamore Dew handy.

Just buy some PBR and tell yourself that you're drinking it ironically.

390 OhNoZombies!  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 10:43:29pm

re: #387 HappyWarrior

I feel the same way. It should taste good. I think i've been fortunate to have friends from across the pond that have introduced me to stuff other than Budweiser. Otherwise I probably wouldn't have ever been a beer drinker.

391 HappyWarrior  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 10:44:02pm

re: #389 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Just buy some PBR and tell yourself that you're drinking it ironically.

am not actually a hipster :).

392 Gus  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 10:44:28pm
393 HappyWarrior  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 10:45:21pm

re: #390 OhNoZombies!

I feel the same way. It should taste good. I think i've been fortunate to have friends from across the pond that have introduced me to stuff other than Budweiser. Otherwise I probably wouldn't have ever been a beer drinker.

Yeah I went overseas before I turned 21 to some of the better better beer countries (Germany, Czech Republic etc). Plus I have British cousins in law too. But uh I can't get into gin

394 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 10:45:46pm

Dumb conservative confederates.

395 OhNoZombies!  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 10:47:18pm

re: #393 HappyWarrior

I can't even stand the smell of gin.
...Or Jack Daniels...

396 OhNoZombies!  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 10:48:48pm

re: #394 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

Well hello ! You missed the fun !
:)

397 HappyWarrior  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 10:49:19pm

re: #395 OhNoZombies!

I can't even stand the smell of gin.
...Or Jack Daniels...

Jack D is overrated. My dad steered me towards Mr. Jim Beam and it's been my bourbon of choice ever since. He said Kentucky > Tennessee when it came to the bourbon biz.

398 OhNoZombies!  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 10:55:16pm

re: #397 HappyWarrior

I've been known to sip on Glenfiddich Black. Not often though.

399 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 10:58:15pm

re: #396 OhNoZombies!

Well hello ! You missed the fun !
:)

So I see! Been quite busy today and when I got home I just crashed for a few hours.

Now it's 11PM and I might as well be Monster Puppy at 5:30 AM. What'd I miss?

400 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 11:03:13pm

For fuck's sake. Stumping to put the standard of a long dead enemy of the USA on American license plates.

They might as well petition for this or this to be put on American license plates.

401 OhNoZombies!  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 11:03:28pm

Nothing too bad. I think some had a hard time understanding the difference between condoning and understanding Nat Turner. It could have gone a lot of places, but it fizzled.

402 OhNoZombies!  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 11:05:10pm

re: #400 Slumbering Behemoth

The South shall rise again ! Or so I've heard...

403 Gus  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 11:06:16pm

re: #394 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

Dumb conservative confederates.

That's about the size of it. Their choice I guess if they want to drive around with these ID tags if you know what I mean. Was trying to think of something positive coming out of this. These plates will just say it all. There will be varying degrees though I suppose.

404 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 11:07:33pm

re: #402 OhNoZombies!

The South shall rise again !

And the United States of America shall stomp them down, again. Or so I would hope.

405 Gus  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 11:08:40pm

re: #400 Slumbering Behemoth

For fuck's sake. Stumping to put the standard of a long dead enemy of the USA on American license plates.

They might as well petition for this or this to be put on American license plates.

We need to honor the Wehrmacht.

//

406 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 11:09:49pm

re: #401 OhNoZombies!

Nothing too bad. I think some had a hard time understanding the difference between condoning and understanding Nat Turner. It could have gone a lot of places, but it fizzled.

Oh brother.

Well, this is the state of historical education in the post-civil rights age, I guess. "Nat Turner, the concept, put the fear of god into people who cling to their unearned privileges as if they somehow earned them, themselves.

That much, I like about him. Too bad I missed the conversation. Oh well, it's bound to come up again.

407 OhNoZombies!  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 11:10:43pm

re: #404 Slumbering Behemoth

Can you imagine another Civil War ?

408 Gus  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 11:11:23pm

Nirvana - Smells Like Teen Spirit

Columbine. Flip the Humvee.

409 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 11:12:05pm

re: #407 OhNoZombies!

Can you imagine another Civil War ?

I can't. Who are the stupid confeds going to get to fight it for them?

410 Kragar  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 11:14:24pm

re: #409 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

I can't. Who are the stupid confeds going to get to fight it for them?

Same as always. They'll package the deal as state's rights and wave the flag for idiots to fight against their own best interests.

411 OhNoZombies!  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 11:14:37pm

re: #406 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

I think Nat got a paragraph on a pamphlet I got one February 20 years ago.
//
It's, I think, for some to imagine the brutality of slavery. It's been sanitized.

412 OhNoZombies!  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 11:16:05pm

re: #408 Gus 802

Just had that blasting on my radio a couple of hours ago!

413 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 11:16:21pm

re: #403 Gus 802

That's about the size of it. Their choice I guess if they want to drive around with these ID tags if you know what I mean. Was trying to think of something positive coming out of this. These plates will just say it all. There will be varying degrees though I suppose.

I figure if some neo-Confed wants to put their stupid flag all over their cars, nothing's stopping them from doing it on their own dime. That they need the government to endorse their views, though, tells a lot about them.

414 Kragar  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 11:17:12pm

re: #412 OhNoZombies!

Just had that blasting on my radio a couple of hours ago!

Ever hear the remix?

415 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 11:17:20pm

re: #410 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Same as always. They'll package the deal as state's rights and wave the flag for idiots to fight against their own best interests.

They'll lose again, then.

Poor dears. lol

416 OhNoZombies!  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 11:18:35pm

re: #409 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

re: #410 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Same as always. They'll package the deal as state's rights and wave they flag for idiots to fight against their own best interests.

What he said.

417 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 11:19:16pm

re: #405 Gus 802

And ya know... it's not impossible to honor the enemy.

Proper burials in accordance with their faith, and such. But sporting the enemy's standard, and so many decades after they have ceased to exist?

I would no sooner sport a Confederate standard than I would a Nazi standard. Both should occupy the dustbin of history, and rightfully so.

418 OhNoZombies!  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 11:20:05pm

re: #414 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Nope, and my iPhone=no flash

419 Gus  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 11:20:13pm

re: #412 OhNoZombies!

Just had that blasting on my radio a couple of hours ago!

Nirvana - In Bloom

Sad loss. He really had a lot of talent. Why? I guess some of us really know.

Grohl is playing the drums.

420 Gus  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 11:21:42pm

re: #417 Slumbering Behemoth

And ya know... it's not impossible to honor the enemy.

Proper burials in accordance with their faith, and such. But sporting the enemy's standard, and so many decades after they have ceased to exist?

I would no sooner sport a Confederate standard than I would a Nazi standard. Both should occupy the dustbin of history, and rightfully so.

True. But you know. You can get rid of the flag. You can get rid of the symbolism. But the racism will still be there.

421 goddamnedfrank  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 11:22:28pm

re: #401 OhNoZombies!

Nothing too bad. I think some had a hard time understanding the difference between condoning and understanding Nat Turner. It could have gone a lot of places, but it fizzled.

There's a conceit people have about their values, the belief that those values somehow transcend and are generally arrived at independently of their individual experience.

422 OhNoZombies!  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 11:22:47pm

re: #419 Gus 802

Pretty much...

423 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 11:23:10pm

re: #407 OhNoZombies!

Can you imagine another Civil War ?

I can imagine a lot of things. I blame "The Twilight Zone" and "The Outer Limits" for this.

/both before my time, yet both worthy enough to enjoy wide syndication well into my youth.

424 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 11:23:20pm

re: #411 OhNoZombies!

I think Nat got a paragraph on a pamphlet I got one February 20 years ago.
//

Lol I used to have a joke about February and TCM - get out your recorder this month, because you won't be seeing these movies again, for another year. lol

It's, I think, for some to imagine the brutality of slavery. It's been sanitized.

Well, you get these dupes who think Mammy and Prissy were real people, Aunt Jemimah and Cream of Wheat Guy really are thrilled to serve them cereal and pancakes in the morning, and that Reconstruction was unjustified because slavery was such a benevolent system. how could Gods Favorite Superiors ever be so unethical as to mistreat anybody in the first place?

A lot of them are 100% emotionally invested in those images, and get IRATE at Black people who do not fulfill them. I do get a kick out of making fun of the pathology, must admit.

425 Gus  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 11:24:01pm

It's kind of like hoping Andrew Breitbart would come to his senses.

Ain't. Gonna. Happen.

426 Gus  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 11:27:04pm

My point is. Even if you got rid of this license plate it wouldn't make much difference.

Teen murder suspect carried 'backpack of hatred'

Editor's note: This story contains language that some readers may consider offensive. For more on this story, watch "Mississippi Still Burning?" on CNN Presents, Sunday, October 23, at 8 p.m. and 11 p.m. ET.

Brandon, Mississippi (CNN) -- To get to Brandon, you have to drive across the Pearl River, a boundary that seems to separate black Mississippi from white.

In the town's center, a monument stands honoring the confederate soldiers who fought in the Civil War.

This mostly white town in mostly white Rankin County is about a 30-minute drive from Jackson, Mississippi. It's here in Brandon that some residents say a gang of teenagers expressed their strong racial prejudice -- sometimes through violence...

427 OhNoZombies!  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 11:27:10pm

re: #421 goddamnedfrank

Absolutely. It's a difficult thing to try to see through someone else's eyes.

428 Gus  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 11:28:04pm
429 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 11:28:41pm

re: #420 Gus 802

True. But you know. You can get rid of the flag. You can get rid of the symbolism. But the racism will still be there.

Indeed. So...

NEW FLAGS FOR EVERYONE!!!
/

:sigh:

430 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 11:28:55pm

re: #425 Gus 802

It's kind of like hoping Andrew Breitbart would come to his senses.

Ain't. Gonna. Happen.

Nope. Another conservative caught up in projecting his own self-loathing onto the usual targets. The only effort people like thatare worth is the energy of derisive laughter, and rolling eyes. And reporting them to the FBI, immediately, whenever necessary.

431 Gus  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 11:31:31pm

re: #430 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

Nope. Another conservative caught up in projecting his own self-loathing onto the usual targets. The only effort people like thatare worth is the energy of derisive laughter, and rolling eyes. And reporting them to the FBI, immediately, whenever necessary.

That's what's good about these license plates.

You can identify them.

432 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 11:31:51pm

re: #426 Gus 802

My point is. Even if you got rid of this license plate it wouldn't make much difference.

Teen murder suspect carried 'backpack of hatred'

The difference would be getting rid of state endorsement of those views, not making a difference regarding their hatred.

We've known since some time in 1619 trying to exise confederates and other bigots of their hatred is a fool's errand.

433 OhNoZombies!  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 11:32:25pm

re: #426 Gus 802

Exactly. Which is why the Stars and Bars issue keeps coming up. The mindset is part of the social fabric.
Gotta find it, but S. Carolina is apparently trying to re-segregate public schools.

434 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 11:33:43pm

re: #431 Gus 802

That's what's good about these license plates.

You can identify them.

We can already identify them, because they don't hide themselves to us, license plate or no license plate. They don't even hide themselves in the communities they belong to - they just get cover from them.

435 Gus  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 11:35:28pm

re: #434 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

We can already identify them, because they don't hide themselves to us, license plate or no license plate. They don't even hide themselves in the communities they belong to - they just get cover from them.

I figured that we would know who these guys are even before these plates. We'll know now.

436 OhNoZombies!  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 11:37:46pm

Around here, in freakin' Ohio, people proudly wave the stars and bars.
There's no such thing as hiding.

437 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 11:39:32pm

re: #433 OhNoZombies!

Exactly. Which is why the Stars and Bars issue keeps coming up. The mindset is part of the social fabric.
Gotta find it, but S. Carolina is apparently trying to re-segregate public schools.

North Carolina, too.

Personally, I don't care if schools are segregated by race, at this point. Equal funding and resources, and allocating the biggest and best public resources for whites, has always been the issue.

That's also the issue for confederates and their disdain for "the public" -- they think their taxes shoud go for unequal funding, and police-state repression of fellow taxpayers based on demographics. So they run out and go join Koch-funded tea parties who tell them they are being shaken down for reparations because some black kid is sitting next to one of their brats.

There will be no end of people of the Koch's to exploit, in this way.

438 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 11:41:55pm

re: #435 Gus 802

I figured that we would know who these guys are even before these plates. We'll know now.

We already know now, because they don't hide it, now, and never have. They already have their Confed flags all over everything they own, including their biceps, clothing, cars, hats, preferred political candidates, etc.

The issue is whether or not the state government will provide them with a platform.

439 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 11:43:13pm

re: #436 OhNoZombies!

Around here, in freakin' Ohio, people proudly wave the stars and bars.
There's no such thing as hiding.

Same in CA. They're proud of it.

440 OhNoZombies!  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 11:44:29pm

I'm very coming very close to the same conclusion on all points.
To make a long story short, Copley schools seem to be on a witch hunt for students who may not live in the district.
Guess which kids seem to be the primary targets .

441 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 11:51:52pm

re: #440 OhNoZombies!

I'm very coming very close to the same conclusion on all points.
To make a long story short, Copley schools seem to be on a witch hunt for students who may not live in the district.
Guess which kids seem to be the primary targets .

Too many whites are still caught up in this weird view of civil rights that has them believing rest of us thinking we can improve our lot in life simply by sitting next to them on the bus or in a school.

That was never the goal of the Brown class action or even Rosa Park's feet. /

442 OhNoZombies!  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 11:52:30pm

I mean, who really wants to send their kids where they know they aren't wanted.
If you send them because the academics better, when do the benefits outweigh the costs?

443 goddamnedfrank  Sat, Oct 22, 2011 11:53:17pm

re: #427 OhNoZombies!

Absolutely. It's a difficult thing to try to see through someone else's eyes.

Especially if one's ego is at stake. Sympathy is easy but empathy takes effort, imagination, and the willingness to step outside one's own perspective.

444 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 12:00:19am

re: #442 OhNoZombies!

I mean, who really wants to send their kids where they know they aren't wanted.
If you send them because the academics better, when do the benefits outweigh the costs?

I've had to desegregate/integrate such places, private and public. Waste of everyone's time, though the other problem there was a lack of options.

"Better academics" to them is "We're whites. Therefore our academics are 'better'." Obviously, that's a truism.

The mentality has only gotten worse since I was in elementary/jr high/high school. Its just morphed into the more euphemistic "We're 'private'. Therefore, our academics are superior, by default."

Even though our schools are packed to the brim with dumb bigots in training.

Now fork over all that inferior/inefficient public sector money for our vouchers you suckers!! /lol

445 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 12:04:56am

re: #442 OhNoZombies!

I mean, who really wants to send their kids where they know they aren't wanted.

No one does, but being wanted isn't the point -- ending the practice of our taxes going to fund the same inequality that excludes us, is the point.

None of our ancestors begged to be brought to a place that only wanted us for free labor, but here we are, contributing to the US being the place everyone else wants to come.

So, you "cast down your buckets where you are", as the infamous saying goes.

446 The Questionable Timing of a Flea  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 12:11:47am

re: #113 Dark_Falcon

What I'm saying is twofold:

1. Nat Turner's Rebellion stoked Southern paranoia about "servile insurrection" to such an (irrational) extent that they regarded any idea of abolition as an invitation to their murder.

2. While the Civil War was a strong eventual likelihood by the 1850's, john Brown's raid made it a certainty.

Those things having been said, it is still correct to say that the primary cause of the American Civil War was the South's insistence on not only maintaining, but expanding slavery. Southern intransigence and butthurt played greater roles in causing war than any other factors.

Nat Turner was distinct in the legal response in Virginia, but before they were fearmongering about Nat Turner the South was fearmongering about the Haitians, Gabriel Prosser, and Denmark Vesey in pretty much the same terms. Indeed, one of the propagandic planks of slavery was to maintain a level of fear of rebellion at basically all times: blacks with too much autonomy were a threat to everybody.

447 OhNoZombies!  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 12:19:09am

re: #445 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

Being wanted isn't the point, but not being wanted is ; especially if you're a child.
Part of school is socialization, and kids pick up on inequity quicker than they'll pick up 1+1.
Hey, I just realized it's 3:13 am. I'm having a hard time forming a coherent thought much less a cogent argument, so I'm gonna have to sign off for awhile.
I don't mean to be abrupt, but I can't keep my eyes open.
To be continued...

448 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 12:19:32am

re: #446 The Ghost of a Flea

Nat Turner was distinct in the legal response in Virginia, before they were fearmongering about Nat Turner the South was fearmongering about the Haitians, Gabriel Prosser, and Denmark Vesey in pretty much the same terms. Indeed, one of the propagandic planks of slavery was to maintain a level of fear of rebellion at basically all times: blacks with too much autonomy were a threat to everybody.

Hell, the whole Euro world was fearmongering about the Haitians. One of my favorite Kleist stories/soap operas: Gustave and Toni in Betrothal in Santo Domingo (1811)

Luvvvv me some Kleist. F'ed up anti-Black story, but still, I luv me some Kleist :D

449 goddamnedfrank  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 12:21:31am

Here's how I begin the task of imagining how pervasive anti-black violence must have been in Nat Turner's time, along with the general value of a black child's life. It was so bad that over one hundred and twenty years after his crimes white southerners were still murdering kids like Emmett Till for whistling at their women.

450 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 12:25:55am

re: #76 Dark_Falcon

Ick. Murderous fanatics, both of them. They both richly earned their hangings. Nat Turner actually damaged to cause of abolition, and Browns raid on Harper's Ferry made the Civil War a certainty.

Only in the minds of confederate proxy-beligerents, desperate to still believe in 19th century ideas of Black criminality, and the benevolence of white conservative slavery.

451 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 12:27:22am

re: #449 goddamnedfrank

Here's how I begin the task of imagining how pervasive anti-black violence must have been in Nat Turner's time, along with the general value of a black child's life. It was so bad that over one hundred and twenty years after his crimes white southerners were still murdering kids like Emmett Till for whistling at their women.

Or, today's white conservatives, frothing at the mouth because the product of an African man and a white woman is now the boss of them.

452 palomino  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 12:37:13am

re: #450 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

Only in the minds of confederate proxy-beligerents, desperate to still believe in 19th century ideas of Black criminality, and the benevolence of white conservative slavery.

Absurd, I agree.

For some reason, many people here are shocked and disappointed in Nat Turner because he didn't practice nonviolent civil disobedience (as if that were possible in 1830 Virginia). And that Turner didn't possess some sort of higher consciousness and a more sophisticated moral worldview than the people who owned him and controlled his entire life.

453 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 12:42:45am

re: #446 The Ghost of a Flea

Nat Turner was distinct in the legal response in Virginia, before they were fearmongering about Nat Turner the South was fearmongering about the Haitians, Gabriel Prosser, and Denmark Vesey in pretty much the same terms. Indeed, one of the propagandic planks of slavery was to maintain a level of fear of rebellion at basically all times: blacks with too much autonomy were a threat to everybody.

Is it any surprise: Dark Falcon is the sort of conservative race-paranoiac, conditioned by spectres of slave rebellions and Birth of a Nation, and dumb/duped enough to still fall for that old yarn.

I'm glad for "Nat Turner", the mythological being in the white conservative paranoid mind, not the person. They know nothing of the actual person, just as they know nothing about us as individuals today, only the symbols, and the myths, based on looks. This is how Confederate McRighty still views all of us, to this day.

454 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 12:48:30am

re: #452 palomino

Absurd, I agree.

For some reason, many people here are shocked and disappointed in Nat Turner because he didn't practice nonviolent civil disobedience (as if that were possible in 1830 Virginia). And that Turner didn't possess some sort of higher consciousness and a more sophisticated moral worldview than the people who owned him and controlled his entire life.

Oh, they still give us the same self-interested fingerwagging, today. We're supposed to be more patient, kind, longsuffering, and understanding of those who wish to second-class or simply eliminate my various communities.

No such patience, kindness, or longsuffering understanding is ever demanded or required of bigot/perp communities, by these types.

As much as it's supposed to be an epithet, this is the embodiment of the Uncle Tom stereotype. When it's not fulfilled, they get very nervous and angry. I think the reaction is hilarious.

The pathology runs deep. Deep, deep, deep.

455 Four More Tears  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 12:49:21am

Huh. So Spartacus wasn't a hero then?

456 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 12:54:14am

re: #455 JasonA

Huh. So Spartacus wasn't a hero then?

?!

Of course Spartacus was a hero! Spartacus was Kirk Douglas!

457 Kragar  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 1:00:20am

re: #456 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

?!

Of course Spartacus was a hero! Spartacus was Kirk Douglas!

Spartacus was a commie socialist who broke the law by fighting against the legitimate Roman government!
/

458 palomino  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 1:01:56am

re: #455 JasonA

Huh. So Spartacus wasn't a hero then?

And what about Moses? He led a slave rebellion and a bunch of people died. That's Charlton Heston, he only played heroes.

459 Four More Tears  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 1:03:29am

re: #456 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

?!

Of course Spartacus was a hero! Spartacus was Kirk Douglas!

But but but... I thought leading slave revolts and killing lots of those who benefit from the oppressive institution (and way way way more than Nat Turner could have hoped for) was a bad thing now!

460 Four More Tears  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 1:04:08am

re: #458 palomino

And what about Moses? He led a slave rebellion and a bunch of people died. That's Charlton Heston, he only played heroes.

AND WHAT ABOUT ALL THOSE APES HE KILLED?!? WHY DOES NO ONE CARE ABOUT THEM?!?

461 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 1:06:31am

re: #457 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Spartacus was a commie socialist who broke the law by fighting against the legitimate Roman government!
/

Spartacus was a CRIMINAL!! Just like that CRIMINAL Nelson Mandela!

Commies!!!!

re: #458 palomino

And what about Moses? He led a slave rebellion and a bunch of people died. That's Charlton Heston, he only played heroes.

Moses was a CRIMINAL who needed to be taught a lesson in respect for authority!!

He killed his own people!

Bomb him, make him into green glass!!!!

Dumb cons...

462 goddamnedfrank  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 1:07:06am

re: #458 palomino

And what about Moses? He led a slave rebellion and a bunch of people died. That's Charlton Heston, he only played heroes.

Killing every first born child among those who enslaved your people is only cool when you can get a wrathful deity to do it for you.

463 Kragar  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 1:08:15am

re: #458 palomino

That's Charlton Heston, he only played heroes.

Incorrect. He played Long John Silver in Treasure Island.

464 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 1:16:14am

re: #462 goddamnedfrank

Killing every first born child among those who enslaved your people is only cool when you can get a wrathful deity to do it for you.

Or only when it was supposedly done 5000+K years ago.

You're not thinking of the feelings of those who benefited from Pharaoh's policies, through no fault of their own, it's just the way it was back then. That's reverse-racist, and very unfair of you.

465 palomino  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 1:29:14am

re: #463 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Incorrect. He played Long John Silver in Treasure Island.

That doesn't count. It was a crappy TV movie and he was old.

466 Winny Spencer  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 1:43:31am

re: #464 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

Or only when it was supposedly done 5000+K years ago.

You're not thinking of the feelings of those who benefited from Pharaoh's policies, through no fault of their own, it's just the way it was back then. That's reverse-racist, and very unfair of you.

Pyromaniacs in a field of straw men.

467 Kragar  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 1:44:51am

re: #465 palomino

That doesn't count. It was a crappy TV movie and he was old.

Cardinal Richelieu back in the 70s in 2 movies

468 Varek Raith  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 1:45:39am

re: #467 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Cardinal Richelieu back in the 70s in 2 movies

LIES

469 Obdicut  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 1:48:35am

re: #462 goddamnedfrank

Killing every first born child among those who enslaved your people is only cool when you can get a wrathful deity to do it for you.

It's probably, but not definitely, the most monstrously evil thing in the old testament. Made even worse when you realize that God 'hardened the heart' of the Pharaoh, indicating that he wanted it to happen that way.

The big problem I have with the complete moral relativity justification for Nat Turner killing children is I feel it's massively insulting to him and to all people who have suffered oppression and slavery. It also provides an easy excuse for those slaveowners; if Nat Turner was just the product of his environment, why weren't the slaveowners? Why is there any expectation of them acting in a humane way?

My view on this is probably largely affected by-- but i don't think weakened by-- having been abused a lot as a kid.

In regards to something I feel is more important: I still can't believe this sign exists, out in daylight. It's an awful, amazingly shitty thing, and I want to drive a truck through it. But they'd just put it up again. Assholes.

Image: 800px-Colfax_Riot_sign_IMG_2401.JPG

470 Varek Raith  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 1:48:39am

Oh my, the NCR seems quite angry with me.
Whatever will I do?
:evilgrin:

471 Obdicut  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 1:50:59am

re: #470 Varek Raith

Remind them that they're halfway between an oligarchy and a military dictatorship, and tell them to get money out of politics.

I wouldn't be in the least surprised if the NCR had corporate citizenship. Heh.

472 Kragar  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 1:56:34am

re: #470 Varek Raith

Oh my, the NCR seems quite angry with me.
Whatever will I do?
:evilgrin:

Play along long enough until you can screw them over in the end.

473 Kragar  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 1:58:12am

re: #468 Varek Raith

LIES

Are you calling me a liar?

474 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 1:58:20am

re: #466 Winny Spencer

Pyromaniacs in a field of straw men.

?

475 Obdicut  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 1:58:44am

re: #472 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Play along long enough until you can screw them over in the end.

I'm really too lazy to figure out all the proper ways to screw people in that game.

476 Kragar  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 2:01:30am

re: #475 Obdicut

I'm really too lazy to figure out all the proper ways to screw people in that game.

My SOP is to deal with Mr. House just long enough to get my free room, then kill House

477 researchok  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 2:02:04am

Morning, all

478 Obdicut  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 2:03:45am

re: #476 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

My SOP is to deal with Mr. House just long enough to get my free room, then kill House

Heh. A friend of mine who's got what I'd call virtual OCD gathered up all the trash he could-- the cups, clipboards, human flesh, etc-- and dumped it in House's pad.

This same guy, when he played the Thief series, would always knock out every single guard on a level and pile them all in a big heap.

479 Varek Raith  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 2:06:27am

re: #478 Obdicut

Heh. A friend of mine who's got what I'd call virtual OCD gathered up all the trash he could-- the cups, clipboards, human flesh, etc-- and dumped it in House's pad.

This same guy, when he played the Thief series, would always knock out every single guard on a level and pile them all in a big heap.

In Fallout 3, I used the Feng Shui mod to make a chair and table out of prewar money.

480 Obdicut  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 2:12:13am

re: #479 Varek Raith

In Fallout 3, I used the Feng Shui mod to make a chair and table out of prewar money.

I really wish the value of the NCR and Legion money changed according to the plot, according to who was winning or perceived as winning.

481 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 2:20:17am

re: #449 goddamnedfrank

Here's how I begin the task of imagining how pervasive anti-black violence must have been in Nat Turner's time, along with the general value of a black child's life. It was so bad that over one hundred and twenty years after his crimes white southerners were still murdering kids like Emmett Till for whistling at their women.

But hey, they were only prodcts of their environment. According to some folks it it explains everything, according yet to others - justifies it./

482 Obdicut  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 2:20:37am

I got woken up this morning by the sweet chorus of drunk Jersey Shore types having an argument under my window.

It included the phrase "Does it look like my ears got eyes?" which is just deep, yo.

483 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 2:24:48am

re: #469 Obdicut

It's probably, but not definitely, the most monstrously evil thing in the old testament. Made even worse when you realize that God 'hardened the heart' of the Pharaoh, indicating that he wanted it to happen that way.

It is indeed not the most monstrous thing in the OT. Consider this:

1 The LORD said to Moses, 2 “Take vengeance on the Midianites for the Israelites. After that, you will be gathered to your people.” [...]
7 They fought against Midian, as the LORD commanded Moses, and killed every man. 8 Among their victims were Evi, Rekem, Zur, Hur and Reba—the five kings of Midian. They also killed Balaam son of Beor with the sword. 9 The Israelites captured the Midianite women and children and took all the Midianite herds, flocks and goods as plunder. 10 They burned all the towns where the Midianites had settled, as well as all their camps. 11 They took all the plunder and spoils, including the people and animals, 12 and brought the captives, spoils and plunder to Moses and Eleazar the priest and the Israelite assembly at their camp on the plains of Moab, by the Jordan across from Jericho.

13 Moses, Eleazar the priest and all the leaders of the community went to meet them outside the camp. 14 Moses was angry with the officers of the army—the commanders of thousands and commanders of hundreds—who returned from the battle.

15 “Have you allowed all the women to live?” he asked them. 16 “They were the ones who followed Balaam’s advice and enticed the Israelites to be unfaithful to the LORD in the Peor incident, so that a plague struck the LORD’s people. 17 Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, 18 but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

19 “Anyone who has killed someone or touched someone who was killed must stay outside the camp seven days. On the third and seventh days you must purify yourselves and your captives. 20 Purify every garment as well as everything made of leather, goat hair or wood.”

484 Winny Spencer  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 2:25:11am

re: #474 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

?

Who has made either of the arguments in 462 or 464 in this thread? Sergey has been spot on throughout, I must say.

485 Winny Spencer  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 2:26:28am

re: #472 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Play along long enough until you can screw them over in the end.

Or listen to President Kimball's speech at Hoover Dam and be converted to the NCR's noble cause.

486 Obdicut  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 2:27:18am

re: #483 Sergey Romanov

Eeeesh. Creepy and evil.

Still, what gets me about the first-born son killing is the bit about God hardening the heart of the Pharaoh, purposefully prolonging this conflict-- and that the killing is being done by an omnipotent (or at least, very potent) being who could have chosen any number of other paths.

487 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 2:29:52am

My takeaway from the thread:

1. Nat Turner's actions are indeed explainable.

2. They're not in any way justifiable at the very least when it comes to children.

3. Some people will defend anything and will think of themselves no less liberal and enlightened.

4. The "environmental" explanations, if used as excuses, can be used to excuse anything, including slavery. Slaveowners were also products of their time and knew no better.

488 Kragar  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 2:29:52am

re: #485 Winny Spencer

Or listen to President Kimball's speech at Hoover Dam and be converted to the NCR's noble cause.

Another tradition, getting my first sunset sarsaparilla star cap, then going outside waiting for the guy to show up, then blasting him in the head for a free set of trader clothes.

489 Varek Raith  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 2:31:20am

re: #488 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Another tradition, getting my first sunset sarsaparilla star cap, then going outside waiting for the guy to show up, then blasting him in the head for a free set of trader clothes.

Gee, that's what I did!
DON'T SNEAK UP ON ME!

490 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 2:36:16am

re: #486 Obdicut

Eeeesh. Creepy and evil.

Still, what gets me about the first-born son killing is the bit about God hardening the heart of the Pharaoh, purposefully prolonging this conflict-- and that the killing is being done by an omnipotent (or at least, very potent) being who could have chosen any number of other paths.

In this respect it doesn't beat the one story where God made David make a census of Israelites (though according to a parallel place it was Satan, heh), and then sent a plague which killed 70K of said Israelites in punishment for making this census.

491 Kragar  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 2:36:31am

re: #489 Varek Raith

Gee, that's what I did!
DON'T SNEAK UP ON ME!

I also head over to the NCR prison, work for them until they send me to Primm to find out when the NCR is going to attack, switch sides to join the NCR attack, then hold back so the gangers and NCR wipe each other out so I can loot all the corpses from both sides.

492 Varek Raith  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 2:39:25am

re: #491 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

I also head over to the NCR prison, work for them until they send me to Primm to find out when the NCR is going to attack, switch sides to join the NCR attack, then hold back so the gangers and NCR wipe each other out so I can loot all the corpses from both sides.

I'm quite fond of the service rifle at the moment.

493 Obdicut  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 2:40:24am

re: #490 Sergey Romanov

If you're into Bible stuff, by the way, you might be interested in my friend Robert Alter's translation and commentary on the Wisdom books.

[Link: www.amazon.com...]

Not only is his translation beautiful, but his commentary is really superb.

Book of Job is probably my favorite fucked up bible story.

494 Obdicut  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 2:42:53am

re: #491 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Do you know about making the early run up to the clinic? It's kind of like pulling a Navarro. There's ways to sneak up there, and then if you've got a high luck you can clean out the casinos and buy all the enhancements right at the start.

If you like that sort of meta-gaming.

I'm trying to do an 'evil' runthrough right now, but I'm not very good at it. Often the evil choices are just too self-defeating.

Did you ever play any of the original fallouts with a very low intelligence? that was hilarious.

495 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 2:42:56am

re: #493 Obdicut

Wow, he wrote a lot of other stuff too.

496 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 2:44:52am

I'm asking just out of interest - has anyone here played a very old game Entomorph?

497 Varek Raith  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 2:45:08am

re: #494 Obdicut

Do you know about making the early run up to the clinic? It's kind of like pulling a Navarro. There's ways to sneak up there, and then if you've got a high luck you can clean out the casinos and buy all the enhancements right at the start.

If you like that sort of meta-gaming.

I'm trying to do an 'evil' runthrough right now, but I'm not very good at it. Often the evil choices are just too self-defeating.

Did you ever play any of the original fallouts with a very low intelligence? that was hilarious.

ME SMASH SHINY!

498 Kragar  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 2:45:31am

re: #492 Varek Raith

I'm quite fond of the service rifle at the moment.

Never did like it. I went Varmint Rifle with full mods until I could get ratslayer.

499 Kragar  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 2:46:46am

re: #494 Obdicut

Do you know about making the early run up to the clinic? It's kind of like pulling a Navarro. There's ways to sneak up there, and then if you've got a high luck you can clean out the casinos and buy all the enhancements right at the start.

If you like that sort of meta-gaming.

I'm trying to do an 'evil' runthrough right now, but I'm not very good at it. Often the evil choices are just too self-defeating.

Did you ever play any of the original fallouts with a very low intelligence? that was hilarious.

I go 10 int, reduce luck to 1, then boost STR, AGI, PER, and END to 6 each

500 Obdicut  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 2:47:27am

re: #495 Sergey Romanov

Wow, he wrote a lot of other stuff too.

Heh. Yes. All his translation and commentary is great, but the Wisdom books I really feel are his finest work.

He also read from Song of Solomon at my wedding, both in a translation done by some friends of his and in the biblical Hebrew, which sounded, well, biblical.

Damn, I've just realized I don't actually have a copy of that translation. I'll have to ask him for it.

501 Varek Raith  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 2:48:27am

re: #498 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Never did like it. I went Varmint Rifle with full mods until I could get ratslayer.

Interesting.
I hated the varmint rifle.

502 Obdicut  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 2:49:38am

re: #499 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

I go 10 int, reduce luck to 1, then boost STR, AGI, PER, and END to 6 each

Oh man, we're so different. Luck is a vital stat for me since I love crits and other random crap. And I want my end at 8 so I can get all the implants.

High luck + Miss Fortune is really hilarious, especially when she stuns the giant roboscorpion.

503 Kragar  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 2:51:44am

re: #501 Varek Raith

Interesting.
I hated the varmint rifle.

I sit back and start pegging from as far back as I can.

504 Obdicut  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 2:51:57am

Ah, it's probably this translation [Link: www.amazon.com...] Nice, I didn't know it was published.

Uri was also just so nice to me as a kid. I've known him since I was born, basically, and he's unfailingly polite, patient, and talks to kids like they're little adults, not in a stern way but a jovial way.

505 Obdicut  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 2:52:40am

re: #503 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

I sit back and start pegging from as far back as I can.

Oh do you?

506 Kragar  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 2:53:01am

re: #502 Obdicut

Oh man, we're so different. Luck is a vital stat for me since I love crits and other random crap. And I want my end at 8 so I can get all the implants.

High luck + Miss Fortune is really hilarious, especially when she stuns the giant roboscorpion.

I take finesse later, get my luck to 6 for crits. As soon as I hit lvl 4, I take the educated perk and am pulling down 17 skill points per level.

507 Kragar  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 2:54:12am

re: #505 Obdicut

Oh do you?

What consenting adults do in their private time is no business of yours.

508 Obdicut  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 2:55:27am

re: #507 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

An ex-girlfriend of mine now makes her living being an S&M mistress and pegging dudes.

She changed, man.

509 Varek Raith  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 2:56:06am

re: #499 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

I go 10 int, reduce luck to 1, then boost STR, AGI, PER, and END to 6 each

Sort of similar except I kill charisma.
Though, that stat seems a tad more important than it was in 3.
Ah, well.

510 Obdicut  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 2:57:05am

re: #509 Varek Raith

Low charisma and high speech = no problem.

511 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 2:58:12am

re: #505 Obdicut

Oh do you?

"Because most women don't have penises...". Academic to the end.

512 Varek Raith  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 2:59:51am

re: #510 Obdicut

Low charisma and high speech = no problem.

I was more concerned with nerve, but that seems like a small bonus now.
So, misanthrope it is!

513 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 3:01:27am

Is there still no "Chutzpah" perk?

514 Kragar  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 3:01:41am

re: #512 Varek Raith

I was more concerned with nerve, but that seems like a small bonus now.
So, misanthrope it is!

Eh, I disregard nerve. I'm awesome enough on my own.

515 Obdicut  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 3:01:56am

re: #512 Varek Raith

I like playing a good character with really low charisma, and imagining people's conversations about him.

"Yeah, well, he saved the town, but he did it in kind of a douchey way, you know?"

516 Varek Raith  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 3:05:58am

re: #514 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Eh, I disregard nerve. I'm awesome enough on my own.

I tend to find companions in games more annoying than anything else.
They always get in the way.

"Hey, Carth? Yeah, I'm going to toss this thermal det...Ah fuck it."
*Tosses it at Carth*

517 Kragar  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 3:11:25am

re: #516 Varek Raith

I tend to find companions in games more annoying than anything else.
They always get in the way.

"Hey, Carth? Yeah, I'm going to toss this thermal det...Ah fuck it."
*Tosses it at Carth*

"OK, I'm going to be sitting here, laying down heavy fire with my automatic rifle. I need you to run in front of me and obscure my shots."

518 Obdicut  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 3:11:40am

Interesting BBC article on the pervasiveness of lying in the political arena.

[Link: www.bbc.co.uk...]

Nixon's lies are the funniest.

519 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 3:20:06am

Morning Geeks Honcos.

520 Varek Raith  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 3:23:49am

re: #517 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

"OK, I'm going to be sitting here, laying down heavy fire with my automatic rifle. I need you to run in front of me and obscure my shots."

It's a shame I couldn't cast Virulent Walking Bomb on Alistair.
Two birds.
One stone.

521 joe90  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 3:36:30am

Yay!!!, we won.

522 RogueOne  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 3:36:57am

Morning Folks

523 joe90  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 3:37:40am

Trying again. Yay!!!, we won.

[Link: www.stuff.co.nz...]

524 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 3:38:47am

re: #427 OhNoZombies!

re: #443 goddamnedfrank

Absolutely. It's a difficult thing to try to see through someone else's eyes.

It's not about perspective at all. How many crimes we would have to justify if we merely went with perspective? From a 5.10.1941 letter of a police secretary Walter Mattner from Mogilev to his wife:

I still have something else to report to you. So I was really there at the great mass dying the day before yesterday. When it came to the first vans my hand was still trembling when I shot, but one gets used to this. When it came to the tenth van I already aimed calmly and fired surely at the many women, children and babies. Considering that I also have two newborn babies at home, which these hordes would treat just the same way, if not ten times worse. The death that we gave them was a nice, short death, compared [to] the infernal torments of thousands upon thousands in the dungeons of the GPU. Newborn babies were flying high through the air and we picked them off in flight, before they even fell into the pit or the water. Just do away with this brood that has thrown all of Europe into war and is now also mongering in America until it has also drawn the same into the war. Hitler's word becomes true, when he once said before the beginning of the war: if Jewry thinks that it can again start a war in Europe, then Jewry will not win, but it will be the end of Jewry in Europe. […] M. has again lost a number with three zeroes, but that is of no consequence here. I am already looking forward to it, and many here say that we will go back home, for then it will be the turn of our local Jews.

See, he has excuses too. He is a product of a bestial environment and propaganda. But why exactly should I consider this perspective and look through his eyes?

525 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 3:38:56am

re: #523 joe90

Trying again. Yay!!!, we won.

[Link: www.stuff.co.nz...]

Uh, they don't all look black to me. Just sayin'.
/woo hoo!!

526 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 3:41:09am

Albert "Freakin'" Pujols. Dang.

527 joe90  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 3:41:24am

re: #525 Cannadian Club Akbar

Uh, they don't all look black to me. Just sayin'.
/woo hoo!!

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

528 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 3:43:42am

re: #508 Obdicut

I didn't know what "pegging" was. Now I do. Fuck you very much.

I'll never be able to look at someone named Peggy the same.

529 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 3:44:42am

I just noticed LSU and Alabama are #1 and #2 and they both won. If it stays that way the National Championship will be between #1 and #3.

530 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 3:47:18am

re: #526 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Albert "Freakin'" Pujols. Dang.

Did he stick around to talk to the press or did he run and hide like the other day when he had the error? Yea, thought so.

531 Obdicut  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 3:48:50am

re: #528 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Just don't let her give you a little peg on the cheek.

532 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 3:49:24am

re: #531 Obdicut

Just don't let her give you a little peg on the cheek.

LALALALAALALALA!!!

533 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 3:49:30am

re: #528 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I didn't know what "pegging" was. Now I do. Fuck you very much.

I'll never be able to look at someone named Peggy the same.

That reminds me...
[Link: people.ambrosiasw.com...]

Bloodninja: I tear off your wooden peg leg.
Bloodninja: I ram it up your ass.
sweet17: YOURE A F**KING PYSCHO!!
Bloodninja: Then I pour hot carmel over your head.
Bloodninja: And turn you into a f**king candy apple...
Bloodninja: I kick you in the face!
sweet17: F**K YOU A**HOLE!!
Bloodninja: The celluloid from your cheeks hits the side of the cabin...
Bloodninja: Your parrot flys away.

534 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 3:50:55am

re: #532 Cannadian Club Akbar

I just read the definition. Pencil is my friend!!! heh.

535 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 3:51:14am

re: #530 Cannadian Club Akbar

Dunno. Was reading about it this morning. When I went to bed it was 12-6; but I wasn't really paying attention and didn't know what he was doing.
From the article I'm reading...

That ball traveled 423 feet. Could have been miles. In the seventh, Pujols got Mike Gonzalez, hit that 406 feet. And in the ninth, Oliver threw a fastball that carried 397 feet and over the fence in left.

Remarked one wry observer, “They’re wearin’ him down.

536 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 3:51:31am

BTW, FBV, you were right. Pencil doesn't work sometimes.

537 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 3:53:16am

re: #535 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Don't get me wrong, I like Pujols. I just wasn't happy with the way he ducked out the other night. That's all. GO RAYS!!

538 Obdicut  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 3:53:49am

re: #533 Sergey Romanov

I always figured at least some of those were faked, if funny.

539 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 3:53:49am

re: #537 Cannadian Club Akbar

Don't get me wrong, I like Pujols. I just wasn't happy with the way he ducked out the other night. That's all. GO home RAYS!!

540 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 3:54:16am

re: #538 Obdicut

I always figured at least some of those were faked, if funny.

Most probably.

541 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 4:02:49am

re: #536 Sergey Romanov

BTW, FBV, you were right. Pencil doesn't work sometimes.

Charles did that on purpose... keeps tension in play...

542 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 4:03:00am
543 Obdicut  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 4:06:09am

re: #542 000G

Starts off with a minorly good point and then just trashes it with dumbass Horatio Alger bullshit.

544 Darth Vader Gargoyle  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 4:14:26am

Good morning Honcos!!!

545 Darth Vader Gargoyle  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 4:17:02am

Took my oldest son to see Weird Al on wednesday. It was a great concert!!

546 RogueOne  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 4:20:23am

Chicago cop under scrutiny for 3 shootings, 2 of them fatal
Police video shows officer firing at prone suspect, officials say
[Link: www.chicagotribune.com...]

In the video, Flint Farmer was lying on the grass between the curb and the sidewalk. It was shortly before 2 a.m. on a June morning in the West Englewood neighborhood, and Farmer had been shot by a Chicago police officer. Then, according to the video, the veteran officer, Gildardo Sierra, stepped onto the parkway and walked a semicircle about the prone Farmer as three bright flashes went off.

The flashes, captured by a police car video camera, were fatal shots fired into Farmer's back, officials say.

That shooting was the third by the officer since January — and the second fatality in those six months, records show.

Sierra fired 16 shots at Farmer, hitting him seven times, autopsy reports show. A Cook County deputy medical examiner, after performing an autopsy and later reviewing the video, said the three shots in the back were the fatal wounds.

If the police reports are accurate, that's a big IF, it looks like the first 2 shootings were completely justified but this 3rd one was an execution. An execution the Chicago PD has already ruled was "justified".

547 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 4:22:49am

re: #546 RogueOne

Chicago cop under scrutiny for 3 shootings, 2 of them fatal
Police video shows officer firing at prone suspect, officials say
[Link: www.chicagotribune.com...]

If the police reports are accurate, that's a big IF, it looks like the first 2 shootings were completely justified but this 3rd one was an execution. An execution the Chicago PD has already ruled was "justified".

It's easy for you to sit in your nice little upper/middle class home and say what is or is not justified.

/

548 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 4:27:25am

re: #547 Sergey Romanov

It's easy for you to sit in your nice little upper/middle class home and say what is or is not justified.

/

I read a quote like that earlier. Hmmm...It isn't where I found it earlier now, though...

549 Darth Vader Gargoyle  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 4:27:46am

re: #546 RogueOne

Wouldn't be Rogue without a bad cop article :-)

550 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 4:32:06am

re: #548 Cannadian Club Akbar

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

551 Darth Vader Gargoyle  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 4:32:45am

So, before I joined LGF, I spent a lot of time on a forum devoted to a certain gun manufacturer. There was a great deal of off topic discussions there. I agreed with the vast majority of posts. Not sure how much is me changing, but many of the posts are terrible now and I find myself on a more moderate side of the argument. Good job LGF'ers!!

552 RogueOne  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 4:33:18am

re: #547 Sergey Romanov

It's easy for you to sit in your nice little upper/middle class home and say what is or is not justified.

/

You're just mad about my upding of an earlier comment.//

In this case it's easy to say what isn't justified, shooting an unarmed person in the back 3 times crosses the line of good conduct.

553 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 4:33:28am

Rogue, did you see this. Can't remember if I brought it up.
[Link: www.google.com...]

554 RogueOne  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 4:33:48am

re: #551 rwdflynavy

wishy-washy RINO!

555 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 4:35:08am

re: #552 RogueOne

You're just mad about my upding of an earlier comment.//

In this case it's easy to say what isn't justified, shooting an unarmed person in the back 3 times crosses the line of good conduct.

In the previously discussed case it's even easier - you don't murder children and put their heads on pikes. If that's justifiable, everything is.

556 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 4:35:30am

re: #551 rwdflynavy

Great. Just grab your latte and we'll start the Sylvia Plath discussion in a bit.
/

557 RogueOne  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 4:35:50am

re: #553 Cannadian Club Akbar

Rogue, did you see this. Can't remember if I brought it up.
[Link: www.google.com...]

I don't know that you brought it up but I've read it. I view it as another example of them believing they're better and get to play by different rules than the people they're sworn to protect.

558 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 4:38:05am

re: #557 RogueOne

I don't know that you brought it up but I've read it. I view it as another example of them believing they're better and get to play by different rules than the people they're sworn to protect.

That article brought me to this one (not a link in the article, just looked up the subject). I haven't looked into it a bunch yet.
[Link: www.nytimes.com...]

559 RogueOne  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 4:38:20am

re: #555 Sergey Romanov

In the previously discussed case it's even easier - you don't murder children and put their heads on pikes. If that's justifiable, everything is.

I agree that there are some things that are always wrong and that's one of them but I'm also a believer in situational ethics. I love shades of gray.

560 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 4:42:25am

re: #559 RogueOne

I agree that there are some things that are always wrong and that's one of them but I'm also a believer in situational ethics. I love shades of gray.

So am I. And killing the adults may be a gray case. Children (in this particular situation) - nope.

561 RogueOne  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 4:43:07am

re: #555 Sergey Romanov

Here's a question, didn't I see you cheering the execution of gaddafi? "Cheering" might be a little loaded of a term.

562 Darth Vader Gargoyle  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 4:43:14am

re: #556 Cannadian Club Akbar

ORANGE MOCHA FRAPPACHINO!!!/Zoolander//

563 RogueOne  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 4:44:27am

re: #560 Sergey Romanov

So am I. And killing the adults may be a gray case. Children (in this particular situation) - nope.

So when do you think it's appropriate to kill children? I have a list, I want to see if yours matches up with mine.////////

564 Darth Vader Gargoyle  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 4:44:45am

re: #561 RogueOne

Here's a question, didn't I see you cheering the execution of gaddafi? "Cheering" might be a little loaded of a term.

You have an interesting definition of gray....
//

565 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 4:45:08am

re: #561 RogueOne

Here's a question, didn't I see you cheering the execution of gaddafi? "Cheering" might be a little loaded of a term.

At that moment I accepted the information that he was killed in a shoot-out. His extrajudicial execution while in captivity is inexcusable (albeit morally deserved).

566 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 4:45:40am

re: #563 RogueOne

One can write out hypotheticals, it's just not one of them.

567 Darth Vader Gargoyle  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 4:47:01am

re: #563 RogueOne

So when do you think it's appropriate to kill children? I have a list, I want to see if yours matches up with mine.///

bad report card.//

568 RogueOne  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 4:48:31am

re: #565 Sergey Romanov

At that moment I accepted the information that he was killed in a shoot-out. His extrajudicial execution while in captivity is inexcusable (albeit morally deserved).

I'm not trying to trap you into anything or twist what you believe but that's why I was curious. We had just had a conversation about the DP and you came down on the side of it not being acceptable. I thought maybe you had a change of heart and decided that some people deserve to be executed which is what I believe.

I take it you're not a pacifist?

569 Darth Vader Gargoyle  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 4:49:10am

re: #566 Sergey Romanov

One can write out hypotheticals, it's just not one of them.

What about a vampire in child form??
//

570 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 4:49:33am

re: #567 rwdflynavy

bad report card.//

And when they're with you at the bar and you're drunk, and they won't drive home!! "I'm only 8"!! "Shut up!! And stop at Taco Bell"!!!
///

571 RogueOne  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 4:50:03am

re: #567 rwdflynavy

bad report card.//

I'm not pro-choice, I'm pro-abortion. I think there should be a 5 yr time limit, by then you should know if you've made a mistake by bringing the little rat bastard into existence...../////////////////////////////////

572 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 4:50:18am

re: #568 RogueOne

I'm not trying to trap you into anything or twist what you believe but that's why I was curious. We had just had a conversation about the DP and you came down on the side of it not being acceptable. I thought maybe you had a change of heart and decided that some people deserve to be executed which is what I believe.

I take it you're not a pacifist?

I never argued with the thesis that some people deserve to be executed. They just shouldn't be.

I'm neither a pacifist, nor a militarist.

573 RogueOne  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 4:52:41am

re: #572 Sergey Romanov

I never argued with the thesis that some people deserve to be executed. They just shouldn't be.

I'm neither a pacifist, nor a militarist.

I think society, and the planet in general, are better off without some people on it. Not only do some people deserve, through their own actions, to be executed but some deserve it to be scary and painful. Gaddafi was one of them.

574 Darth Vader Gargoyle  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 4:55:39am

re: #572 Sergey Romanov

I never argued with the thesis that some people deserve to be executed. They just shouldn't be.

I'm neither a pacifist, nor a militarist.

"I could be a fascist anarchist. It wouldn't change the fact that I don't own a car!"//Ferris Bueller

575 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 4:56:39am

re: #573 RogueOne

He sure deserved it, as do all kinds of people, e.g. those who torture and authorize torture, etc. And even if one accepts DP, even then extrajudicial execution in captivity should not be acceptable. It's not about what one deserves. It's about being consistent. If one makes exception to the no-DP rule or no-lynchings rule, on what basis is this exception made? The "obviousness" doesn't work, sorry, since it failed before. But we've been there before.

576 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 4:57:38am

re: #573 RogueOne

Not only do some people deserve, through their own actions, to be executed but some deserve it to be scary and painful.

What would be the value or merit of some people's death being scary and painful?

577 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 4:58:07am

re: #575 Sergey Romanov

(added "in captivity" above)

578 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 4:58:56am

re: #551 rwdflynavy

As horrible as the song is, gonna quote it here...

Well except for the names and a few other changes
If you talk about me, the story's the same one

Yeah. Me too.

579 Darth Vader Gargoyle  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 5:03:23am

re: #573 RogueOne

I think society, and the planet in general, are better off without some people on it. Not only do some people deserve, through their own actions, to be executed but some deserve it to be scary and painful. Gaddafi was one of them.

I prefer a quick death or imprisonment. If you are a megalomaniac, there is no worse fate than being treated like any other criminal.

580 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 5:03:29am

re: #556 Cannadian Club Akbar

Great. Just grab your latte and we'll start the Sylvia Plath discussion in a bit.
/

My daughter read Sylvia Plath until her eyes bled. Had I known then what I know now? I would have ripped that bullshit out of her hands and sent her to Camp Chippewa.

Pugsley: What's a Chippewa?
Gomez: It's an old Indian word.
Wednesday: It means "orphan."
-Addams Family Values

581 laZardo  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 5:05:09am

re: #576 000G

Closure. Knowing that they met their end in such a manner (as compared to, say, sitting in prison, getting hot meals and respect from the other inmates instead of what inmates end up 'receiving' in prison) would quell the restlessness in their still-living victims and relatives.

582 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 5:06:16am

re: #581 laZardo

I don't think state should take such things into account. BTW, are you pro-DP?

583 Obdicut  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 5:07:02am

re: #580 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I never understood why anyone would love Plath when there was Dickinson around.

I measure every grief I meet
With analytic eyes;
I wonder if it weighs like mine,
Or has an easier size.

I wonder if they bore it long,
Or did it just begin?
I could not tell the date of mine,
It feels so old a pain.

I wonder if it hurts to live,
And if they have to try,
And whether, could they choose between,
They would not rather die.

I wonder if when years have piled--
Some thousands--on the cause
Of early hurt, if such a lapse
Could give them any pause;

Or would they go on aching still
Through centuries above,
Enlightened to a larger pain
By contrast with the love.

584 RogueOne  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 5:07:27am

re: #576 000G

What would be the value or merit of some people's death being scary and painful?

Punishment. Think about the final moments of the victims of people like Dennis Rader (BTK) or David Parker Ray, absolute unimaginable horror. People like that don't deserve to go out peacefully in their sleep.

If there were a hell there would be a special punishment for people like that but since there isn't maybe they should get a taste of what they put those women through before everything goes dark.

585 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 5:09:02am

re: #584 RogueOne

Are you OK with waterboarding Bush and Cheney then?

586 RogueOne  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 5:09:12am

re: #582 Sergey Romanov

I don't think state should take such things into account. BTW, are you pro-DP?

In this country it would be a violation of the "cruel and unusual" portion of the 8th (?) amendment.

Still, it's nice to dream.//

587 laZardo  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 5:09:14am

re: #582 Sergey Romanov

I don't think state should take such things into account. BTW, are you pro-DP?

I'm undecided. On the one hand, Troy Davis for a murder he probably did not commit. On the other, Anders Breivik getting 20+5 years for 80 people.

588 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 5:09:31am

re: #583 Obdicut

But, isn't...

"I think I'll slit my wrists."

more poetic?

*spit*

589 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 5:10:37am

re: #584 RogueOne

IIRC, Rader is in an 8 x 10. No DP. But he also isn't allowed pencils and pens to draw with. (he would, over his "career", take pics out of magazines and draw the models in bondage)

590 RogueOne  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 5:11:05am

re: #585 Sergey Romanov

Are you OK with waterboarding Bush and Cheney then?

Situational! Do I feel bad that those 3 assholes got the scare of a lifetime? Hell no. Watch the Daniel Pearl video and then tell me I should feel bad because KSM got his face wet.

591 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 5:11:33am

re: #587 laZardo

False dichotomy. That Breivik might get less than life* is a feature of a single country, not an argument for DP.

---
* Actually it has been explained time and again that the system as it exists in Norway won't let him out ever.

592 RogueOne  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 5:11:52am

re: #587 laZardo

I'm undecided. On the one hand, Troy Davis for a murder he probably did not commit. On the other, Anders Breivik getting 20+5 years for 80 people.

It's entirely possible that Troy Davis was guilty as hell. The problem I have is we can't absolutely prove it.

593 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 5:12:32am

re: #581 laZardo

Closure. Knowing that they met their end in such a manner (as compared to, say, sitting in prison, getting hot meals and respect from the other inmates instead of what inmates end up 'receiving' in prison) would quell the restlessness in their still-living victims and relatives.

That's not answering my question. Reworded: How is painful and scary more valuable than quick and painless?

594 Darth Vader Gargoyle  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 5:12:48am

re: #583 Obdicut

I never understood why anyone would love Plath when there was Dickinson around.

and Poe.
//

595 Obdicut  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 5:14:36am

re: #588 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I don't mind Plath, I really don't. Some of her stuff is good. But to me she's first and foremost just not that good a writer. Powerful subject, mediocre writing. Sort of like Orwell-- but Orwell had the long-ranging, courageous vision, whereas Plath's was obsessively internal.


Whereas Dickinson had a view that spanned the world from her tiny little room, and wrote like an angel of death.

I heard a fly buzz when I died;
The stillness round my form
Was like the stillness in the air
Between the heaves of storm.

The eyes beside had wrung them dry,
And breaths were gathering sure
For that last onset, when the king
Be witnessed in his power.

I willed my keepsakes, signed away
What portion of me I
Could make assignable, and then
There interposed a fly,

With blue, uncertain, stumbling buzz,
Between the light and me;
And then the windows failed, and then
I could not see to see.

596 Winny Spencer  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 5:14:36am

re: #587 laZardo

I'm undecided. On the one hand, Troy Davis for a murder he probably did not commit. On the other, Anders Breivik getting 20+5 years for 80 people.

Bull. You could maybe argue reasonable doubt, but probably did not commit? Arrant nonsense.

597 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 5:15:38am

re: #584 RogueOne

Punishment. Think about the final moments of the victims of people like Dennis Rader (BTK) or David Parker Ray, absolute unimaginable horror. People like that don't deserve to go out peacefully in their sleep.

If there were a hell there would be a special punishment for people like that but since there isn't maybe they should get a taste of what they put those women through before everything goes dark.

You are arguing in a circle: People deserve to be executed in a scary and painful way because they deserve it and it is valuable because it is valuable. That's not answering my question. I asked specfically about the value and merit of having an execution be scary and painful. Punishment is not its own reward. You seem to be implicitly arguing for some vague and nebulous concept of the punishment fitting the crime, but I can only guess.

598 Obdicut  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 5:16:28am

re: #590 RogueOne

Situational! Do I feel bad that those 3 assholes got the scare of a lifetime? Hell no. Watch the Daniel Pearl video and then tell me I should feel bad because KSM got his face wet.

The continued need of torture defenders to minimize it through phrases like 'got his face wet' is pretty telling.

599 RogueOne  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 5:16:32am

I'm coming across a little blood thirsty for a sunday morning when in reality I'm all for second chances and am normally a very mellow person. I do have a little sympathy for an eye-for-an-eye types but I can't help but feel that some people deserve what they get.

600 Winny Spencer  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 5:17:49am

re: #592 RogueOne

It's entirely possible that Troy Davis was guilty as hell. The problem I have is we can't absolutely prove it.

It was proven and the conviction was upheld? I can't believe people still fall for the media hype. Guilty as sin.

601 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 5:18:13am

re: #590 RogueOne

That's one of the problems with torture, isn't it? KSM's "confession" of killing Pearl isn't valid exactly because he has been tortured and we have no idea if he told the truth.
And enabling torture is a crime in itself, regardless of whether it was applied only to "bad guys" (which we don't actually know). Today it is applied - by chance - to baddies, tomorrow it will be applied to some goatherder who accidentally got swept up.

602 Obdicut  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 5:18:44am

Dickinson also had pretty much the ultimate commentary on fame.

I'm nobody! Who are you?
Are you nobody, too?
Then there's a pair of us - don't tell!
They'd advertise - you know!

How dreary to be somebody!
How public like a frog
To tell one's name the livelong day
To an admiring bog!

603 RogueOne  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 5:19:03am

re: #598 Obdicut

The continued need of torture defenders to minimize it through phrases like 'got his face wet' is pretty telling.

This is the guy who helped plan the murder of 3000 people and personally sawed the head off of a guy because he was a jew. I'm finding it hard to come up with any sympathy because he thought he might drown.

604 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 5:20:18am

re: #603 RogueOne

Once again you don't see the forest behind the trees.

605 laZardo  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 5:20:36am

re: #591 Sergey Romanov

* Actually it has been explained time and again that the system as it exists in Norway won't let him out ever.

In theory. We'll know after 26 years.

re: #593 000G

You only asked what value there was, not the value in comparison to a quick-and-painless death. Of course, there's really no telling how all of us will go out in the end, so perhaps we'll have to settle for whatever eventually does happen.

606 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 5:20:55am

re: #603 RogueOne

This is the guy who helped plan the murder of 3000 people and personally sawed the head off of a guy because he was a jew. I'm finding it hard to come up with any sympathy because he thought he might drown.

I also heard his Chicken L'Orange was dry once.
///

607 Obdicut  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 5:21:29am

re: #603 RogueOne

This is the guy who helped plan the murder of 3000 people and personally sawed the head off of a guy because he was a jew. I'm finding it hard to come up with any sympathy because he thought he might drown.

Again: "Because he thought he might drown" is a minimizing of what happened.

And I'm not saying you should have any sympathy for him whatsoever. At all. In any way.

I'm just noting it's funny how the defenders of torture keep minimizing what it is, calling it 'frat pranks' and 'getting his face wet'. It's sort of cute, but also craven.

608 RogueOne  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 5:21:59am

re: #597 000G

You are arguing in a circle: People deserve to be executed in a scary and painful way because they deserve it and it is valuable because it is valuable. That's not answering my question. I asked specfically about the value and merit of having an execution be scary and painful. Punishment is not its own reward. You seem to be implicitly arguing for some vague and nebulous concept of the punishment fitting the crime, but I can only guess.

I never said it was valuable, only fitting, and punishment is a reward. My only argument is some get better than they deserve. No where have I said the government should implement a special rape to the death penalty for people like the BTK killer.

609 Darth Vader Gargoyle  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 5:22:25am

re: #604 Sergey Romanov

Once again you don't see the forest behind the trees.

The forest of people who died because of him?

//

610 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 5:23:51am

re: #609 rwdflynavy

You're only saved by two sarc tags.
//

611 RogueOne  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 5:24:01am

re: #604 Sergey Romanov

Once again you don't see the forest behind the trees.

Sure I do. Should we waterboard every detainee in the hopes that we might learn something valuable (or as punishment)...absolutely not. Should we decide that we should NEVER, under any circumstances, use it?...again, absolutely not.

612 Obdicut  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 5:26:29am

In case people have forgotten it, or chosen not to remember it, here's Hitchen's account of being tortured. Hitchens, who didn't think waterboarding was torture, and didn't believe it could coerce false confessions.

[Link: www.vanityfair.com...]

Here are his final conclusions. They have zero to do with sympathy.

1. Waterboarding is a deliberate torture technique and has been prosecuted as such by our judicial arm when perpetrated by others.

2. If we allow it and justify it, we cannot complain if it is employed in the future by other regimes on captive U.S. citizens. It is a method of putting American prisoners in harm’s way.

3. It may be a means of extracting information, but it is also a means of extracting junk information. (Mr. Nance told me that he had heard of someone’s being compelled to confess that he was a hermaphrodite. I later had an awful twinge while wondering if I myself could have been “dunked” this far.) To put it briefly, even the C.I.A. sources for the Washington Post story on waterboarding conceded that the information they got out of Khalid Sheikh Mohammed was “not all of it reliable.” Just put a pencil line under that last phrase, or commit it to memory.

4. It opens a door that cannot be closed. Once you have posed the notorious “ticking bomb” question, and once you assume that you are in the right, what will you not do? Waterboarding not getting results fast enough? The terrorist’s clock still ticking? Well, then, bring on the thumbscrews and the pincers and the electrodes and the rack.

613 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 5:26:41am

re: #611 RogueOne

Sure I do. Should we waterboard every detainee in the hopes that we might learn something valuable (or as punishment)...absolutely not. Should we decide that we should NEVER, under any circumstances, use it?...again, absolutely not.

There can be a case made for a much-cited ticking bomb scenario - tho it's unlikely to ever happen and was dreamed up to justify torture in principle. But even in that case a person torturing should face legal consequences, like a certain prison time (and no trial by jury, as it would likely go on emotion and exculpate him). Outside this type of cases? Nope.

614 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 5:27:00am

re: #612 Obdicut

Also, Mancow.

615 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 5:27:10am

re: #605 laZardo

You only asked what value there was, not the value in comparison to a quick-and-painless death.

I asked what the value of a painful and scary death was, not what value any death had.

616 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 5:28:02am

re: #614 Sergey Romanov

Also, Mancow.

Mancow probably deserved it, though.
/

617 RogueOne  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 5:28:35am

re: #614 Sergey Romanov

Also, Mancow.

Mancow deserved it!//

618 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 5:29:13am

BTW, I don't think dinging Winny on Davis is fair, unles you've read this judgment - which I still haven't had time to do.

[Link: multimedia.savannahnow.com...]

I, for one, wouldn't exclude that despite certain irregularities with witnesses the case may be a closed shut case. I mean, there was some funky witness stuff in Mumia case too, and as far as I'm concerned he is guilty as hell.

619 Winny Spencer  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 5:30:24am

Troy "Rough As Hell" Davis was irrevocably transformed into Troy "The Saint" Davis by the media.

620 RogueOne  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 5:31:54am

re: #600 Winny Spencer

It was proven and the conviction was upheld? I can't believe people still fall for the media hype. Guilty as sin.

I did say it was "entirely possible" he was guilty as hell. There was a lot of evidence of his guilt but most of it, to me, was circumstantial. I'm not against the DP but I do believe that it should be saved for those we know are 100% guilty.

621 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 5:32:23am

re: #608 RogueOne

I never said it was valuable, only fitting, and punishment is a reward. My only argument is some get better than they deserve. No where have I said the government should implement a special rape to the death penalty for people like the BTK killer.

When you say that something is deserved, you identify a certain value in it. That is what "deserving" means: that it is worth it/has merit, according to some ethical judgement. What is that judgement? That a punishment should somehow mirror the crime and e.g. an arsonist deserved his own house burned down?

How is punishment its own reward? That sounds like even punishing the innocent would be valuable.

622 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 5:32:35am

Rogue, let me offer you a hypothetical, since you asked me about Kaddafi. Suppose someone executes OJ Simpson extrajudicially. Would this be justified and should the executioners face the law?

623 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 5:33:10am

re: #614 Sergey Romanov

Also, Mancow.

And Andy Breckman of Seven Second Delay fame:

624 Obdicut  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 5:33:52am

re: #614 Sergey Romanov

Also, Mancow.

I'm going to make an enormous leap and say Hitchens is a better writer than Mancow.

625 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 5:34:18am

re: #623 000G

Not familiar with him. Did he deserve it?/

626 Winny Spencer  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 5:35:46am

re: #620 RogueOne

I did say it was "entirely possible" he was guilty as hell. There was a lot of evidence of his guilt but most of it, to me, was circumstantial. I'm not against the DP but I do believe that it should be saved for those we know are 100% guilty.

That would always be impossible to ascertain.

627 Obdicut  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 5:37:55am

re: #626 Winny Spencer

That would always be impossible to ascertain.

Which is why the death penalty is always stupid. It always means you're going to wind up executing innocent people.

628 Darth Vader Gargoyle  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 5:39:40am

re: #627 Obdicut

Which is why the death penalty is always stupid. It always means you're going to wind up executing innocent people.

Yeah, but they probably did something else bad...
//

629 RogueOne  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 5:42:37am

re: #622 Sergey Romanov

Rogue, let me offer you a hypothetical, since you asked me about Kaddafi. Suppose someone executes OJ Simpson extrajudicially. Would this be justified and should the executioners face the law?

I would consider that good karma.//

It can actually be both, justified (karmic but not legally) and the executioner should face the law. There was an IN case that just wrapped up recently where a convicted killer killed his roommate who was a child molester. Do I think the kiddie raper got what he "deserved", yes. Do I think it's a good idea to let prisoners decide among themselves who gets the DP? No.

Part of the confusion in a discussion like this is deciding what is morally objectionable on a personal level and what should be legally morally objectionable.

630 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 5:42:58am

re: #627 Obdicut

Which is why the death penalty is always stupid. It always means you're going to wind up executing innocent people.

I don't have a problem with people who are against the DP. Give the guilty an 8 x 10 cell. No radio, no TV, 1 book a week. No commissary. No general population. Problem is, people will argue that even people convicted of first degree murder, if model prisoners, deserve some "perks". They don't.

631 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 5:43:21am

re: #629 RogueOne

Exactly my point.

632 RogueOne  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 5:44:06am

re: #626 Winny Spencer

That would always be impossible to ascertain.

I disagree. This week there was the story about the woman who kept and tortured a kid in her basement for close to a decade. There isn't any doubt to her guilt.

633 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 5:44:15am

re: #625 Sergey Romanov

Not familiar with him. Did he deserve it?/

Oh boy, did he.
[Link: wfmu.org...]
[Link: www.andybreckman.com...]

634 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 5:45:49am

re: #633 000G

OK, that's very very bad web-design. I agree he deserved it./

635 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 5:45:59am

re: #633 000G

Oh boy, did he.
[Link: wfmu.org...]
[Link: www.andybreckman.com...]

Dude won't play "American Pie" on his show? Commie.
/

636 RogueOne  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 5:48:00am

re: #630 Cannadian Club Akbar

I don't have a problem with people who are against the DP. Give the guilty an 8 x 10 cell. No radio, no TV, 1 book a week. No commissary. No general population. Problem is, people will argue that even people convicted of first degree murder, if model prisoners, deserve some "perks". They don't.

...and then that leads us to how many of those convicted of murder, but don't get the DP, are getting what they deserve? At least with the DP there are additional layers of protection where the convicted gets extra shots to prove their innocence. No one cares about the guy stuck in a cell looking at the walls for the rest of his life if he's not facing the DP.

(I can swing both ways pretty quick can't I?)

637 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 5:49:53am

re: #634 Sergey Romanov

OK, that's very very bad web-design. I agree he deserved it./

To be fair, the site was designed by some other dude without Andy Breckman's consent or anything. Same thing with the Facebook account: operated by committee.

But yeah, Seven Second Delay is great comedy fun.

/daily WFMU pimpage

638 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 5:49:54am

re: #636 RogueOne

That only means everyone, esp. lifers should get what DPers get. Not that there should be DP.

639 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 5:50:16am

re: #637 000G

What's WFMU anyway?

640 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 5:51:13am

re: #636 RogueOne

Also remember, if faced with the DP, some people will plea, get life, and that makes it so they can't appeal. And the fact that you can swing both ways is troubling.:)

641 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 5:51:34am

re: #639 Sergey Romanov

What's WFMU anyway?

WFMU is a listener-supported, independent community radio station headquartered in Jersey City, New Jersey, United States, broadcasting at 91.1 (and at 90.1 as WMFU) MHz FM, presenting a freeform radio format. It is the longest-running freeform radio station in the U.S.

642 Darth Vader Gargoyle  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 5:52:11am

re: #636 RogueOne

(I can swing both ways pretty quick can't I?)

Hey now...
//

643 RogueOne  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 5:54:07am

re: #640 Cannadian Club Akbar

re: #642 rwdflynavy

That's how you double your chances at a date! Didn't your mom teach you anything?

644 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 5:55:38am

re: #641 000G

"Andrew Lloyd Webber soundtracks in languages other than English"

Heh.

645 Darth Vader Gargoyle  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 5:55:47am

Later lizards, have a great day!!

646 darthstar  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 5:57:17am

Mornin' everyone...what's with the Double Penetration conversation? Someone score some good porn they aren't sharing?

647 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 5:57:56am

re: #646 darthstar

dirty old star

648 darthstar  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 5:59:08am

re: #647 Sergey Romanov

dirty old star

I watched some good porn when I was young.

649 RogueOne  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 5:59:10am

re: #646 darthstar

I gave everyone a perfect opportunity to make a mom joke at my expense and no one had the nerve to do it. I'm disappointed but glad to see you here since I'm fairly sure you'd have done it.

650 darthstar  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 6:00:25am

re: #649 RogueOne

I gave everyone a perfect opportunity to make a mom joke at my expense and no one had the nerve to do it. I'm disappointed but glad to see you here since I'm fairly sure you'd have done it.

I saw that just a second ago...I was going to say something about moms who go both ways, but I thought we weren't supposed to talk about Sarah Palin.

651 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 6:01:13am

re: #648 darthstar

I watched some good porn when I was young.

I shudder to think what passes through your mind when you see "TP" mentioned here.

652 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 6:01:41am

re: #649 RogueOne

I gave everyone a perfect opportunity to make a mom joke at my expense and no one had the nerve to do it. I'm disappointed but glad to see you here since I'm fairly sure you'd have done it.

Yo momma's so nasty, I called her up for phone sex and she gave me an ear infection.

Yo momma's so nasty, I talked to her over the computer and she gave me a virus.

653 darthstar  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 6:03:00am

re: #651 Sergey Romanov

I shudder to think what passes through your mind when you see "TP" mentioned here.

I have a very normal mind, thank you very much. But the last thing I want to talk about first thing in the morning is the death penalty. And it's never too early to talk about fucking.

654 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 6:03:00am

re: #652 Cannadian Club Akbar

Yo momma's so nasty, I called her up for phone sex and she gave me an ear infection.

Yo momma's so nasty, I talked to her over the computer and she gave me a virus.

Yo momma's so nasty, her crabs use her tampon string as a bungee cord.
Last one. Promise.

655 darthstar  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 6:06:11am

re: #654 Cannadian Club Akbar

Promise? You still have thirty seconds to take that last one back...bungee-jumping crabs...really?

656 RogueOne  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 6:08:05am

I feel a little better now, thanks

657 darthstar  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 6:09:22am

Nice article on global warming effects (for one area) and commentary on the deniers.

The question becomes, as climate deniers flourish in inverse proportion to the actual evidence, whether there’ll still be enough sand enough left on South Florida’s beaches to bury our collective heads.

Read more: [Link: www.miamiherald.com...]

658 RogueOne  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 6:12:59am

re: #653 darthstar

I have a very normal mind, thank you very much. But the last thing I want to talk about first thing in the morning is the death penalty. And it's never too early to talk about fucking.

Sunday morning is the appointed date/time for DP talk. There are millions of people in churches all over the world talking about it right now. I'm not sure why saturday night has been determined as the civil war reenactment night.

659 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 6:13:40am

re: #657 darthstar

This notwithstanding, another question to Rogue. Do you agree that there is a global warming going on? (Without specifying the causes.)

660 darthstar  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 6:19:59am

I hear the NBA isn't playing yet...I'd be okay if that sport went away. College hoops is far more entertaining anyway. Though without the NBA potential payoff for 1 in 10,000 college players, scholarships would probably be better spent on academic stars.

661 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 6:21:54am

Aside from other things, AGW denial is probably tied to widespread creationism. "If those eggheads are wrong about evolution, what else are they wrong about?"

662 RogueOne  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 6:22:13am

re: #659 Sergey Romanov

This notwithstanding, another question to Rogue. Do you agree that there is a global warming going on? (Without specifying the causes.)

I'm 95% positive.

663 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 6:23:02am

re: #662 RogueOne

Did the percentage change with the BEST study?

664 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 6:24:45am

Meanwhile some Russian Kaddafist bloggers compare him to Jesus.

665 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 6:27:16am

Uh-oh.

[Link: wireupdate.com...]

A video released by the Global Post appears to capture an unidentified man sodomizing ousted Libyan leader Colonel Muammar Gaddafi with an object before he was eventually killed.

Video at the link.

666 RogueOne  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 6:28:03am

re: #663 Sergey Romanov

Did the percentage change with the BEST study?

Not really. I read one of the authors, Judith Curry, every so often.

667 RogueOne  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 6:28:42am

re: #665 Sergey Romanov

Uh-oh.

[Link: wireupdate.com...]

Video at the link.

oh wow

668 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 6:29:23am

re: #660 darthstar

I hear the NBA isn't playing yet...I'd be okay if that sport went away. College hoops is far more entertaining anyway. Though without the NBA potential payoff for 1 in 10,000 college players, scholarships would probably be better spent on academic stars.

Ever see Hoop Dreams? Yea, 2 stars up and coming. Except, no.

669 darthstar  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 6:30:20am

re: #661 Sergey Romanov

Aside from other things, AGW denial is probably tied to widespread creationism. "If those eggheads are wrong about evolution, what else are they wrong about?"

Yep...look at the comments on that article...though there's one good takedown of a denier named "Richard Nixon 2012"...

Gee, what a dilemma. Should I believe a Herald troll who badmouths environmental science under the username of the Republican president who founded the EPA, or should I believe NASA and the National Science Foundation? Wow, that's a tough one. Maybe before deciding I'll read what NASA says again, right here...[Link: climate.nasa.gov...]

670 RogueOne  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 6:30:24am

re: #665 Sergey Romanov

I felt a little "fuck yeah!" crop up when I watched the original video of them leading him off but I don't want to see that one. I'm not even sure I want to read the story!

671 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 6:33:15am

re: #670 RogueOne

You know what. Morally, he deserved all that and more. But the question is not about him but about his captors. At that moment he was no longer a dictator, but an old and defenseless man. I certainly think of his victims while watching this. But I still think this is wrong.

672 darthstar  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 6:33:48am

re: #665 Sergey Romanov

Uh-oh.

[Link: wireupdate.com...]

Video at the link.

And people find my discussion of porn off putting?

673 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 6:34:03am

re: #672 darthstar

I don't.

674 RogueOne  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 6:34:56am

re: #672 darthstar

And people find my discussion of porn off putting?

that video was only single penetration of one dick. DP is completely off-putting and gets you sent straight to hell.

675 RogueOne  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 6:35:59am

re: #671 Sergey Romanov

You know what. Morally, he deserved all that and more. But the question is not about him but about his captors. At that moment he was no longer a dictator, but an old and defenseless man. I certainly think of his victims while watching this. But I still think this is wrong.

I can see that. I still think he had it coming but I wouldn't want to be the one to do it or watch it. Maybe if I had to live there I'd feel differently.

676 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 6:36:12am

re: #674 RogueOne

Read more carefully, it wasn't a dick ;) A guy was shoving some stick in K's ass.

677 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 6:37:03am

re: #676 Sergey Romanov

Read more carefully, it wasn't a dick ;) A guy was shoving some stick in K's ass.

Was it K? I didn't see a face. Maybe because the stick got all the attention.
/half

678 RogueOne  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 6:37:10am

re: #676 Sergey Romanov

Read more carefully, it wasn't a dick ;) A guy was shoving some stick in K's ass.

That's what I said, gadaffi was a dick.

679 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 6:37:33am

re: #678 RogueOne

Hehe.

680 RogueOne  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 6:38:41am

re: #676 Sergey Romanov

I wonder how this affects the situation in Syria and some others like Chavez.

681 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 6:38:53am

re: #677 Cannadian Club Akbar

Him, judging by clothes and bloodstained sleeve.

682 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 6:39:43am

re: #680 RogueOne

In Syria probably more brutal crackdowns, unless the US secretly promises a vewy sweet deal with Assad disappearing with cash.

683 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 6:39:52am

re: #681 Sergey Romanov

Him, judging by clothes and bloodstained sleeve.

OK.

684 RogueOne  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 6:42:37am

re: #682 Sergey Romanov

In Syria probably more brutal crackdowns, unless the US secretly promises a vewy sweet deal with Assad disappearing with cash.

I'm afraid you're right. Assad isn't going down without a serious fight after seeing what has happened in Libya. Even if he's captured and doesn't get immediately sodomized and shot in the head best case scenario he ends up on trail before getting hanged or sodomized and shot.

685 darthstar  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 6:44:11am

re: #674 RogueOne

DP is completely off-putting and gets you sent straight to hell.

Are we still talking porn or are we back on the death penalty? Still, you gotta hand it to the camera man. (In truth, I only saw one DP movie, but I was in my teens and, well...it left an impression...mostly, "How the fuck? No, really? Holy shit!")

686 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 6:46:51am

re: #685 darthstar

Are we still talking porn or are we back on the death penalty? Still, you gotta hand it to the camera man. (In truth, I only saw one DP movie, but I was in my teens and, well...it left an impression...mostly, "How the fuck? No, really? Holy shit!")

Are you now talking about pron or punishment? ///

687 darthstar  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 6:47:27am

re: #682 Sergey Romanov

In Syria probably more brutal crackdowns, unless the US secretly promises a vewy sweet deal with Assad disappearing with cash.

I'm thinking of that scene from the Jesse James movie where Kris Kristofferson shoots a deputy with a shotgun filled with dimes. "Keep the change"...

688 darthstar  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 6:49:32am

re: #684 RogueOne

Must we sodomize and shoot every dictator? Whatever happened to long drawn out trials at the Hague where they die of natural causes before it ends? Far more civilized, IMO.

689 RogueOne  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 6:49:41am

My spouses hometown:

Cop punches girl:

The comments say it was in August and there's a lawsuit but I can't find anything in the local paper about the story behind it all.

690 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 6:50:21am

re: #687 darthstar

I'm thinking of that scene from the Jesse James movie where Kris Kristofferson shoots a deputy with a shotgun filled with dimes. "Keep the change"...

Ever see the scene in Monster's Ball where P Diddy was strapped into the electric chair? Then later, Halle Berry was getting it doggie from Billy Bob Thornton? Best of both worlds. Wait, what?

691 Obdicut  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 6:51:05am

re: #690 Cannadian Club Akbar

This conversation has gotten too highbrow and arty-farty for me. I'm going to go have brunch.

692 RogueOne  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 6:51:36am

re: #684 RogueOne

....best case scenario he ends up on trail before getting hanged or sodomized and shot.

The old sodomy trail. STAY OFF that one!

693 darthstar  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 6:51:59am

re: #690 Cannadian Club Akbar

Never saw that film. Is it about Halloween?

694 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 6:52:58am

re: #693 darthstar

Never saw that film. Is it about Halloween?

It's about kittehs.

695 darthstar  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 6:53:11am

re: #692 RogueOne

The old sodomy trail. STAY OFF that one!

Just as with the mom thing, I left Sarah Palin out of the possible responses to that typo. She should really thank me for all the consideration I'm showing her.

696 RogueOne  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 6:53:46am

re: #693 darthstar

Never saw that film. Is it about Halloween?

We went to see Paranormal 3 last night. I gave it a B-. Not bad, not great.

697 darthstar  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 6:53:48am

re: #694 Cannadian Club Akbar

It's about kittehs.

Ooh...I like kittehs.

698 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 6:54:39am

re: #693 darthstar

Never saw that film. Is it about Halloween?

Probably about Thanksgiving.

699 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 6:54:42am

re: #697 darthstar

Ooh...I like kittehs.

I think Halle won an Oscar for it.

700 darthstar  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 6:55:23am

re: #696 RogueOne

We went to see Paranormal 3 last night. I gave it a B-. Not bad, not great.

There's a Paranormal 1 and a Paranormal 2? Lifetime Movie Network needs to catch up...I'm missing all the good movies.

701 RogueOne  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 6:57:17am

re: #700 darthstar

There's a Paranormal 1 and a Paranormal 2? Lifetime Movie Network needs to catch up...I'm missing all the good movies.

I thought the first one was pretty good. When the second came out I got suckered into "it's better than the first!" and I got tricked again last night. They're all the same.

702 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 6:57:36am

re: #700 darthstar

There's a Paranormal 1 and a Paranormal 2? Lifetime Movie Network needs to catch up...I'm missing all the good movies.

Lifetime: The network for recluses.

703 RogueOne  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 7:02:33am

No more tasering the differently-abled...it's a start I guess:

Vermont State Police to make revisions to Taser policy
[Link: www.burlingtonfreepress.com...]

Troopers responded to a home April 6 at the request of developmental services and mental health professionals. The man with disabilities including Down syndrome, was told by care providers that he needed to be taken to a new placement. He refused to get dressed and accompany the caregivers. When troopers arrived, they attempted to escort the man from the home, but he pulled away. Trooper Paul Mosher, who is assigned to the Derby barracks, deployed his Taser. Then the man was helped into his care provider's vehicle, evaluated at the emergency room, released uninjured and transported to the new placement.

Changes to state police policy regarding Tasers includes placing people with cognitive impairments in a category that requires special consideration before use of a Taser, and the devices will be used only if the person is armed and presents a risk of harm, or if there are no other reasonable alternatives to maintaining safety or taking the person into custody.

704 darthstar  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 7:02:55am

re: #702 Cannadian Club Akbar

Lifetime: The network for recluses.

It's where all the soap stars go to try their luck in feature films...but they're so trained to do long expressive stares into the camera that they just can't act to save their life...which is unfortunate, as they're usually being stalked by another former soap star with a knife or an unhealthy lust for their husband.

705 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 7:05:48am

re: #704 darthstar

It's where all the soap stars go to try their luck in feature films...but they're so trained to do long expressive stares into the camera that they just can't act to save their life...which is unfortunate, as they're usually being stalked by another former soap star with a knife or an unhealthy lust for their husband.

Also Crystal Bernard from "Wings" and that one lady with three names.(Meredith Baxter Birney?)

706 RogueOne  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 7:06:26am

This could get interesting:

Judge might send feds in to get Denver's police files in excessive-force case
[Link: www.denverpost.com...]

A federal judge on Friday threatened to send U.S. marshals into the Denver Police Department​'s Internal Affairs Bureau to retrieve records of excessive-force complaints after city officials once again delayed complying with an order to turn them over.

Lawyers for James D. Moore, who claims he was wrongfully arrested and beaten in March 2008 by two Denver policemen, are seeking the records to prove the city tolerates a pattern of abuse by its officers.

"We are demanding the city and county of Denver comply with the law like any other defendant," Senior U.S. District Judge John L. Kane said Friday. "I once had the marshals seize all the records in the Internal Affairs Bureau, and if I have to do this again in this case, I will."

Moore's attorney Darold Killmer complained that Assistant City Attorney Thomas Bigler only turned over a flash drive containing documents just before Friday's hearing and that Bigler asked Killmer's firm to pay copying fees to make CDs and DVDs of more city documents.

"Where does this payment from the other side come in?" Kane asked Bigler. "I have been here 33 years and never heard of it."

The judge told Bigler to reproduce the records and keep track of the city's expenses in case the city prevails in the lawsuit. At that point, city officials can seek to recover costs from Moore and his attorneys.

Kane has repeatedly ordered the city to turn over the records and said Friday that he was "on edge" about the pace. Last month, Kane threatened to fine Denver $5,000 a day if it didn't make progress in producing the documents in another excessive-force case involving one of the same police officers Moore has accused. That case was settled out of court for $225,000.

707 darthstar  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 7:08:31am

re: #702 Cannadian Club Akbar

Lifetime: The network for recluses.

The Jesse Stone movies with Tom Selleck are actually pretty good...he plays a grumpy, bitter, alcoholic small town sheriff in a small town with, of course, a bit of a crime problem - as all small towns have...

708 darthstar  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 7:09:01am

re: #705 Cannadian Club Akbar

Also Crystal Bernard from "Wings" and that one lady with three names.(Meredith Baxter Birney?)

You're such a recluse!

709 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 7:10:46am

Are Return of the Living Dead 1 and 2 any good? I saw 3 like 15 years ago or so and it was great. 1/2 worth watching?

710 darthstar  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 7:12:00am

re: #709 Sergey Romanov

Are Return of the Living Dead 1 and 2 any good? I saw 3 like 15 years ago or so and it was great. 1/2 worth watching?

The original Dawn of the Dead was a good movie. They don't make malls like that anymore.

711 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 7:13:07am

re: #707 darthstar

The Jesse Stone movies with Tom Selleck are actually pretty good...he plays a grumpy, bitter, alcoholic small town sheriff in a small town with, of course, a bit of a crime problem - as all small towns have...

Never heard of Mayberry?

712 laZardo  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 7:14:56am

re: #710 darthstar

The original Dawn of the Dead was a good movie. They don't make malls like that anymore.

Except in vidya games.

:B

/dead rising 2 off the record should be canon

713 RogueOne  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 7:16:27am

re: #710 darthstar

The original Dawn of the Dead was a good movie. They don't make malls like that anymore.

That's my favorite zombie movie. I liked the remake too.

re: #709 Sergey Romanov

I really liked the 1st one.

714 darthstar  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 7:18:11am

Okay...missus is awake...time to make her some tea...play with the dogs, etc...

715 RogueOne  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 7:18:15am

I take it you're all watching The Walking Dead?

716 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 7:18:46am

Zombie movies.
[Link: www.boston.com...]

717 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 7:21:29am

re: #715 RogueOne

I take it you're all watching The Walking Dead?

No. I'll download it though sometime in the future.

718 laZardo  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 7:21:46am

re: #715 RogueOne

I take it you're all watching The Walking Dead?

nope

I'm all 'zombied out' from all the zombie-related stuff i see in the media.

Except for maybe...

719 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 7:26:26am

GB vs. Minn.
Indy vs. NO.
One will be 7-0.
One will be 0-7.

720 RogueOne  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 7:29:22am

re: #716 Cannadian Club Akbar

Their list is wrong:
Dawn of the Dead, Remake of DoD, Night of the Living Dead, Day OTD, Shaun of the dead, Zombieland, Return OT(living)D, Dance of the dead, and I liked Dead Snow.

721 sattv4u2  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 7:30:35am

re: #719 Cannadian Club Akbar

Seattle vs. Cleveland

One is 2-3
The other is 2-3

What if the NFL held a game and nobody cared!!

722 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 7:30:54am

re: #719 Cannadian Club Akbar

GB vs. Minn.
Indy vs. NO.
One will be 7-0.
One will be 0-7.

Actually, I'm pulling for Indy.

723 RogueOne  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 7:31:09am

re: #717 Sergey Romanov

No. I'll download it though sometime in the future.

I never tire of zombie flicks. I think it's really well done especially for a tv production.

724 sattv4u2  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 7:31:32am

re: #722 Cannadian Club Akbar

Actually, I'm pulling for Indy.

we really don't care what you're pulling!

725 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 7:32:21am

re: #721 sattv4u2

Seattle vs. Cleveland

One is 2-3
The other is 2-3

What if the NFL held a game and nobody cared!!

I'll have Mia/Den on CBS here at 1, Bucs/Bears on Fox at 1 then GB/Minn at 4.:) (and I know, you get every game)

726 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 7:34:16am

re: #724 sattv4u2

we really don't care what you're pulling!

Also pulling for Detroit and Washington.

727 RogueOne  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 7:34:42am

re: #725 Cannadian Club Akbar

I have the same except SD/Jets on CBS. Go Jets, we hate SD around here.

728 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 7:34:54am

re: #723 RogueOne

I never tire of zombie flicks. I think it's really well done especially for a tv production.

Maybe a stupid question, but do you watch any anime? Recently downloaded High school of the dead, which promises to be some sort of a cool psychological series.

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

The story follows a group of high school students, the high school's nurse, and a young girl as they fight their way to safety through the deadly streets of Japan during a worldwide catastrophic event known as the "Outbreak". As the cast tries to survive the zombie apocalypse, they must also face the additional threats of societal collapse, in the form of dangerous fellow survivors, and the possible decay of their own moral codes.

729 dragonfire1981  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 7:35:44am

But could I get a rainbow colored plate if I were gay?

730 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 7:36:59am

Dungy: Colts should draft Luck, even if it means trading Manning
[Link: www.nfl.com...]

731 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 7:37:53am

Is this baseball again? Or what you guys call "football"?

/

732 RogueOne  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 7:38:00am

re: #728 Sergey Romanov

Maybe a stupid question, but do you watch any anime? Recently downloaded High school of the dead, which promises to be some sort of a cool psychological series.

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

I love animation (My toon collection is way too extensive for a man my age with no kids) but I've never made the jump into anime. Let me know if it's any good, I'll watch anything that's supposed to be eerie.

733 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 7:39:02am

re: #731 Sergey Romanov

Is this baseball again? Or what you guys call "football"?

/

Egg Hand, you commie.
///

734 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 7:39:48am

re: #729 dragonfire1981

But could I get a rainbow colored plate if I were gay?

Don't try to get one personalized in Oklahoma.
[Link: blogs.wsj.com...]

735 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 7:39:48am

re: #732 RogueOne

Ever watched Miyazaki stuff? They're not like your average anime. If you haven't you should, for the sheer weirdness of it. Both Howl's Moving Castle and Spirited Away are a good start.

736 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 7:40:05am

re: #733 Cannadian Club Akbar

Egg Hand, you commie.
///

What is this I don't even

737 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 7:40:55am

re: #733 Cannadian Club Akbar

Ah, got it. /slowpoke

738 RogueOne  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 7:41:27am

re: #730 Cannadian Club Akbar

Dungy: Colts should draft Luck, even if it means trading Manning
[Link: www.nfl.com...]

I think that would be a PR disaster akin to the New Coke debacle. Plus, Irsay is the complete opposite of his father, he might have too much loyalty to some players, especially Manning. There has been an awful lot of talk in Indy about trading a lot of good players for draft picks. I guess we'll see if they think Manning is going to come back healthy for a few years to come depending on if they make any of those trades.

739 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 7:42:03am

re: #734 Cannadian Club Akbar

Don't try to get one personalized in Oklahoma.
[Link: blogs.wsj.com...]

Utah!!!
[Link: usgovinfo.about.com...]

740 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 7:43:16am

re: #738 RogueOne

New Coke was the greatest marketing campaign ever. Everyone tried it. It sucked. So, bring in Coke Classic.

741 sattv4u2  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 7:43:49am

re: #725 Cannadian Club Akbar

I'll have Mia/Den on CBS here at 1, Bucs/Bears on Fox at 1 then GB/Minn at 4.:) (and I know, you get every game)

Pats have a bye today, so I get to spend the day rooting for certain teams I would not usually care too
San Diego (a Jets loss is always good for the Pats)
Denver (see above,, take out JETS, insert DOLPHINS)
Arizona (I just don't like Big Ben)
Saint Louis (the more the Cowboys are miserable, the more I'm not)
//

742 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 7:45:53am

re: #741 sattv4u2

Maybe Romo can set some kind of personal record. Like 4 picks and 4 fumbles. :)

743 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 7:47:28am

re: #742 Cannadian Club Akbar

Maybe Romo can set some kind of personal record. Like 4 picks and 4 fumbles. :)

Add 2 botched holds on FG tries.

744 RogueOne  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 7:49:22am

re: #726 Cannadian Club Akbar

Also pulling for Detroit and Washington.

Feels weird betting on Det to cover a spread. I made money on them last week. Go Jim Harbaugh!

745 lawhawk  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 7:49:52am

re: #742 Cannadian Club Akbar

Romo could run a personal 4/4/4 plan. He's that good/bad that he could throw 4 tds, have 4 fumbles and 4 ints in the same game.

746 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 7:51:32am

*grrr sports threads*

747 RogueOne  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 7:53:16am

re: #746 Sergey Romanov

*grrr sports threads*

it's Sunday morning. Celebrating death and football on the lords day is an american tradition. Get on board godless fereigner!

748 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 7:54:30am

re: #746 Sergey Romanov

*grrr sports threads*

I get the same feeling with gamer geek threads. Kinda like the one I walked into this morning.
/

749 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 7:55:30am

re: #747 RogueOne

it's Sunday morning. Celebrating death and football on the lords day is an american tradition. Get on board godless fereigner!

NEIN NEIN NEIN!

750 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 7:55:44am

re: #748 Cannadian Club Akbar

Yeah, I was thinking about that./

751 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 7:56:04am

re: #747 RogueOne

it's Sunday morning. Celebrating death and football on the lords day is an american tradition. Get on board godless fereigner!

I think I broke a rib.

752 lawhawk  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 7:57:07am

re: #749 Sergey Romanov

That's what Cowboys fans shout when they hear either Herman Cain's name or Tony Romo has the ball. /wrapping the sports thread back into politics.

753 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 7:58:51am

re: #745 lawhawk

So sadly true.

754 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 7:58:53am

re: #751 Cannadian Club Akbar

I think I broke a rib.

Whose?

755 lawhawk  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 8:00:40am

re: #753 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

And I revel in that as a Giants fan. Enjoying the misery of Philly (who becrowned themselves before playing a game as champs and are looking like chumps), Dallas (see Romo, Tony) and the Jets (who I think were tremendously overrated by loudmouth Rex Ryan).

756 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 8:01:10am

[Link: www.dailykos.com...]

But there’s good reason why conservatives smell the whiff of anti-Semitism and crack-pottery wafting through the Occupation air – the Libertarian/Paulite/"We Are Change" folks have joined the OWS cause and bring with them their deep and abiding fears of a Zionist under every bed working some sort of Jewish mind meld upon us as we sleep.

Not sure laying all the blame on the kooky right is the right approach.

757 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 8:03:26am

morning all!

758 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 8:04:10am

re: #757 ggt

hi

759 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 8:04:13am

re: #755 lawhawk

Nothing in the world made me as happy as the Bucs beating Philly in the NFC Championship game in their old stadium, then beating them in the first regular season game of their new one.

760 RogueOne  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 8:05:36am

Did you read this over there the other day:

The Loudest Person at The Citibank Was the Undercover Cop that Arrested the Woman Outside
[Link: www.dailykos.com...]

761 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 8:08:54am

re: #755 lawhawk

Let's have a snack.

762 darthstar  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 8:12:32am

re: #719 Cannadian Club Akbar

GB vs. Minn.
Indy vs. NO.
One will be 7-0.
One will be 0-7.

Green Bay will be 6-1. Minnesota will be 2-5...on their way back to the comeback of all comebacks...NFC wildcard at worst. The Colts can lose for all I care...I'm still pissed off about how they left Baltimore...and I've never been there.

763 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 8:14:20am

re: #761 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Let's have a snack.

I have just the thing.

764 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 8:15:48am

re: #762 darthstar

Green Bay will be 6-1. Minnesota will be 2-5...on their way back to the comeback of all comebacks...NFC wildcard at worst. The Colts can lose for all I care...I'm still pissed off about how they left Baltimore...and I've never been there.

But remember, Cleveland left there and became Baltimore then Cleveland got another team. Meanwhile Al Lerner (iirc) was the man who made all THAT happen. But Cleveland welcomed him back like he was a saint. And you're biased because you're a Minn. fan.:)

765 laZardo  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 8:21:29am
766 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 8:22:05am

Welcome to the new PMS Stadium in Philadelphia. Joe, take it away!!!

767 darthstar  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 8:22:56am

re: #764 Cannadian Club Akbar

The Vikings should be 3-3 right now. If they'd only play four quarters of football instead of three, they'd probably even be undefeated. Chicago beat them fair and square. I don't want to talk about Kansas City.

768 Killgore Trout  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 8:24:15am

re: #760 RogueOne

Did you read this over there the other day:

The Loudest Person at The Citibank Was the Undercover Cop that Arrested the Woman Outside
[Link: www.dailykos.com...]

I was just reading up on this.
Occupy Wall Street good business for security firms

For the high-end security firms that provide the moneyed elite with specialty services like round-the-clock bodyguards and elaborate home-security systems, Occupy Wall Street has been a stimulus package all its own.

Police, feds and private security firms are watching the protesters carefully.

769 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 8:27:49am

I have 12 beers and 10 hours of football. Fuckin' math.

770 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 8:28:21am

ewwwwwwwwwwww!

People are so weird!

771 allegro  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 8:30:12am

re: #770 ggt

ewww!

People are so weird!

That would be torture for the ticklish.

772 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 8:30:29am

re: #770 ggt

ewww!

People are so weird!

Try this.
[Link: articles.latimes.com...]

773 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 8:30:36am

re: #770 ggt

ewww!

People are so weird!

Oh come on. Better than leeches anyway.

774 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 8:31:42am

re: #772 Cannadian Club Akbar

Try this.
[Link: articles.latimes.com...]

I did not need to read that headline. Thank you very much. fffffu

775 OhNoZombies!  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 8:33:52am

re: #524 Sergey Romanov

Considering perspective does not equate justifying actions, or condoning them.
Plus in that situation, my judgement would be much less harsh towards the family of the slain babies if they were to retaliate.

776 laZardo  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 8:34:20am

re: #772 Cannadian Club Akbar

...

;_;

777 allegro  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 8:34:21am

re: #773 Sergey Romanov

Oh come on. Better than leeches anyway.

Maggots and Leeches Oh My!

778 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 8:35:32am

Afrika is launching a major vaccination campaign!!!!!

In the past, campaigns in the north of the country were met with suspicion by religious leaders, some of whom even suggested the vaccinations were an attempt to spread sterility and HIV.

But religious groups are now showing support for vaccination drives, and correspondents say there is optimism that the debilitating, sometimes fatal, virus can be eradicated.

Now, will the science-ignorant arrogant American's pay attention? I hope it doesn't take an outbreak of polio in this country and the resulting suffering of children for them to wake-up.

779 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 8:36:13am

re: #772 Cannadian Club Akbar

Try this.
[Link: articles.latimes.com...]

double, triple ewwww!

*shiver**

780 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 8:36:33am

re: #771 allegro

That would be torture for the ticklish.

GITMO!

781 RogueOne  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 8:36:51am

I'm watching the Anthony Bourdain No Reservations Jeddah episode. His views on what he expected the city and people to be like are interesting.

782 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 8:37:41am

re: #777 allegro

Maggots and Leeches Oh My!

I read that they use medical leeches on burn victims to remove burned skin. Somehow that makes some sense to me--it might be a less painful way to do it.

783 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 8:38:17am

re: #781 RogueOne

I'm watching the Anthony Bourdain No Reservations Jeddah episode. His views on what he expected the city and people to be like are interesting.

Forgive my ignorance, but what are you talking about?

784 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 8:39:13am

re: #783 ggt

Forgive my ignorance, but what are you talking about?

Anthony Bourdain as a Jedi.

785 RogueOne  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 8:39:36am

re: #783 ggt

Forgive my ignorance, but what are you talking about?

No Reservations:
[Link: www.travelchannel.com...]

Great show.

786 Daniel Ballard  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 8:39:38am

Oh no.

Rescuers in Turkey are digging through rubble to reach victims after the most powerful earthquake in at least a decade. The tremor and at least seven aftershocks rattled the eastern part of the country. DEVELOPING STORY

787 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 8:40:13am

re: #775 OhNoZombies!

It depends. If we're trying to get to the root causes, then yes, slavery was bound to produce Nat Turners. But if someone says that Turner is a child-murdering terrorist and cannot be considered a hero, and in response gets numerous comments pointing out that well, slavery was a terror system too (thanks, Cap), that nobody today knows how it was to have grown up in this terror system (thanks again, Cap) etc. etc. - yeah, this sudden need to "put things in context" looks pretty much like a justification (not to mention that several people were quite explicitly doing just that).

788 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 8:41:19am

re: #785 RogueOne

No Reservations:
[Link: www.travelchannel.com...]

Great show.

ah, cable.

I have very little contact with the TV anymore.

789 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 8:41:23am

re: #786 Rightwingconspirator

I saw this earlier. Reports started as a 6.6 but was upped to a 7.3. Not sure where it stands now.

790 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 8:42:22am

re: #789 Cannadian Club Akbar

I saw this earlier. Reports started as a 6.6 but was upped to a 7.3. Not sure where it stands now.

[Link: www.reuters.com...]

791 RogueOne  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 8:42:22am

re: #788 ggt

ah, cable.

I have very little contact with the TV anymore.

The specific show.
[Link: www.travelchannel.com...]

792 Nervous Norvous  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 8:44:25am

re: #790 Cannadian Club Akbar

Pat Robertson blaming the earthquake on the muslims in 3, 2, 1...

793 Killgore Trout  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 8:44:38am

re: #781 RogueOne

I'm watching the Anthony Bourdain No Reservations Jeddah episode. His views on what he expected the city and people to be like are interesting.

That's a good episode. He also did a two part thing in India that's really worth while. The first part is the regular show and then the second part is all the behind the scenes stuff, how they set up shots, organize trips, goof off, etc. One of the first things he does when he arrives in India is he sends his producer to the pharmacy because of the available over the counter drugs.

794 allegro  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 8:45:18am

re: #782 ggt

I read that they use medical leeches on burn victims to remove burned skin. Somehow that makes some sense to me--it might be a less painful way to do it.

That's actually maggots used to remove burned and necrotic tissue. Leeches are used to bleed people who have an excess of iron, iirc.

795 RogueOne  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 8:45:50am

re: #793 Killgore Trout

I saw one of those episodes, it was really good. India is one place I've never had the chance to visit but would love to go.

796 Killgore Trout  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 8:45:56am

re: #788 ggt

ah, cable.

I have very little contact with the TV anymore.

I still watch some stuff but only if I can find it online. I can't sit through commercials anymore and most of the programming just has no appeal to me.

797 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 8:45:56am

re: #791 RogueOne

The specific show.

Who is the skinny drunk on the Travel Chanel that I hate?

798 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 8:46:44am

re: #786 Rightwingconspirator

Oh no.

Rescuers in Turkey are digging through rubble to reach victims after the most powerful earthquake in at least a decade. The tremor and at least seven aftershocks rattled the eastern part of the country. DEVELOPING STORY

Horrible.

I was just wondering why that part of the world seems to be getting a lot of activity and I found this. Something to do with the blue line -- Reverse Fault --same with Chili. Way out of my research/knowledge area.

799 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 8:46:56am

re: #797 Cannadian Club Akbar

Who is the skinny drunk on the Travel Chanel that I hate?

Wait. Same guy.

800 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 8:47:14am

re: #792 PT Barnum

Pat Robertson blaming the earthquake on the muslims in 3, 2, 1...

immoral Amuricans more likely.

801 RogueOne  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 8:47:19am

re: #797 Cannadian Club Akbar

Who is the skinny drunk on the Travel Chanel that I hate?

Not sure. The only drinking show I've seen is "drinking made easy" on HDNet

802 Nervous Norvous  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 8:47:20am

re: #794 allegro

They've also been used in reattachment surgery to help blood flow into the limb

803 Killgore Trout  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 8:47:37am

re: #795 RogueOne

I saw one of those episodes, it was really good. India is one place I've never had the chance to visit but would love to go.

I lived there as a kid. At the time I was too cool for Delhi and wanted fast food, shopping malls and Tv but the place has a way of getting under your skin. It definitely made a lifelong impact on me.

804 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 8:47:49am

re: #794 allegro

That's actually maggots used to remove burned and necrotic tissue. Leeches are used to bleed people who have an excess of iron, iirc.

maggots vs. leeches.

I see a movie in in it.

:0

805 Gus  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 8:48:49am

Cripes. Just caught a glimpse of the Fox News Sunday political show with what's his face -- son of 60 Minutes guy. Some stupid lady from the WSJ wasting a lot of oxygen and Juan Williams sounding the most intelligent. Yeesh.

806 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 8:49:53am

re: #805 Gus 802

Cripes. Just caught a glimpse of the Fox News Sunday political show with what's his face -- son of 60 Minutes guy. Some stupid lady from the WSJ wasting a lot of oxygen and Juan Williams sounding the most intelligent. Yeesh.

Mickey Rooney?
/

807 Nervous Norvous  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 8:50:40am

re: #805 Gus 802

Cripes. Just caught a glimpse of the Fox News Sunday political show with what's his face -- son of 60 Minutes guy. Some stupid lady from the WSJ wasting a lot of oxygen and Juan Williams sounding the most intelligent. Yeesh.

I believe you are speaking of Chris Wallace. His father must be soooo proud

808 RogueOne  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 8:50:43am

My favorite "travel" show is "An Idiot Abroad"

[Link: science.discovery.com...]

That program is brilliant. The China trip killed me.

809 Gus  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 8:51:28am

re: #807 PT Barnum

I believe you are speaking of Chris Wallace. His father must be sooo proud

That's him. I hear him babbling in the background.

810 darthstar  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 8:51:30am

Okay...serious question time. I just discovered Netflix has changed their terms of service and I can choose to do streaming or get one movie a month that I don't watch for an extra 8 bucks. So, which streaming device should I get?
Roku? (I like the name and there's no fee for it after initial purchase)
Hm...I guess that's it...everything else is a video game console or blue-ray player and I don't use any of those things.

Anyone here use Roku?

811 Nervous Norvous  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 8:52:19am

re: #808 RogueOne

I'm a fan of Man Vs Food and Diners Drive Ins and Dives...mostly because they feature places I might actually go eat provided Adam and Guy aren't there, those guys are annoying as hell.

812 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 8:52:24am

re: #810 darthstar

Okay...serious question time. I just discovered Netflix has changed their terms of service and I can choose to do streaming or get one movie a month that I don't watch for an extra 8 bucks. So, which streaming device should I get?
Roku? (I like the name and there's no fee for it after initial purchase)
Hm...I guess that's it...everything else is a video game console or blue-ray player and I don't use any of those things.

Anyone here use Roku?

decisions, decisions

tsk tsk

My son is going thru the same dilemna.

I don't get it.

813 RogueOne  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 8:53:29am

re: #803 Killgore Trout

I lived there as a kid. At the time I was too cool for Delhi and wanted fast food, shopping malls and Tv but the place has a way of getting under your skin. It definitely made a lifelong impact on me.

I tried to talk my wife into letting me wear a sherwani for our wedding but she wouldn't even talk about it. Not even if I promised not to wear the hat.

814 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 8:53:40am

I have watched Mythbusters, Pawnstars, and Pickers with the kid. Oh, and I caught a few episodes of Ice Road Truckers--the one in Nepal could have been categorized under "horror".

I prefer Mythbusters.

815 Gus  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 8:53:52am

Just noticed the update with the other license plate under consideration in Texastan:

Image: ZZ10E5DAA7.jpg

[Rolls eyes.]

816 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 8:54:23am

re: #811 PT Barnum

I'm a fan of Man Vs Food and Diners Drive Ins and Dives...mostly because they feature places I might actually go eat provided Adam and Guy aren't there, those guys are annoying as hell.

I watch Man vs. Food because the food is real. Triple D also has good food on it. Stuff I would cook unlike the rest of the Food Network, which I pretty much hate.

817 PhillyPretzel  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 8:54:40am

I just posted this page on a strong earthquake that just hit Turkey. [Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

818 RogueOne  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 8:55:04am

re: #810 darthstar

My tv streams Netflix and I have an XBox. I've never seen any of the others in action.

819 Nervous Norvous  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 8:55:14am

re: #810 darthstar

Okay...serious question time. I just discovered Netflix has changed their terms of service and I can choose to do streaming or get one movie a month that I don't watch for an extra 8 bucks. So, which streaming device should I get?
Roku? (I like the name and there's no fee for it after initial purchase)
Hm...I guess that's it...everything else is a video game console or blue-ray player and I don't use any of those things.

Anyone here use Roku?

We have a Wii which we bought a couple of years ago. Son watches Netflix more than he plays the Wii. We also have it on a DVD player.

820 darthstar  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 8:55:28am

re: #812 ggt

decisions, decisions

tsk tsk

My son is going thru the same dilemna.

I don't get it.

Well, my wife agreed to buy this house in a town with no theatre if we kept a subscription to Netflix and got a flat screen for watching movies at home (we watch a movie every month or so together, but she wants to have the option all the same).

821 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 8:55:47am

re: #813 RogueOne

I tried to talk my wife into letting me wear a sherwani for our wedding but she wouldn't even talk about it. Not even if I promised not to wear the hat.

This looks very wedding appropriate. I wouldn't have a problem with this.

822 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 8:56:39am

re: #820 darthstar

Well, my wife agreed to buy this house in a town with no theatre if we kept a subscription to Netflix and got a flat screen for watching movies at home (we watch a movie every month or so together, but she wants to have the option all the same).

ah!

823 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 8:56:56am

re: #820 darthstar

Well, my wife agreed to buy this house in a town with no theatre if we kept a subscription to Netflix and got a flat screen for watching movies at home (we watch a movie every month or so together, but she wants to have the option all the same).

now that I have a macbook --I feel complete.

824 laZardo  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 8:57:39am

Welp, bedtime. Nighty.

825 RogueOne  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 8:58:14am

re: #820 darthstar

Well, my wife agreed to buy this house in a town with no theatre if we kept a subscription to Netflix and got a flat screen for watching movies at home (we watch a movie every month or so together, but she wants to have the option all the same).

Your new TV doesn't stream Netflix? You bought american didn't you...

826 Killgore Trout  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 8:59:14am

re: #808 RogueOne

My favorite "travel" show is "An Idiot Abroad"

[Link: science.discovery.com...]

That program is brilliant. The China trip killed me.

[Video]

They're doing a second season now. Pretty good stuff.

827 Gus  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 8:59:50am

This is pretty cool. Video.

Restoring Natural History
The Hall of North American Mammals at the American Museum of Natural History is getting an unprecedented makeover.

828 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 9:02:05am

Alrighty. My TV ain't gonna watch itself. See ya'll in a bit.:)

829 RogueOne  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 9:03:48am

re: #826 Killgore Trout

They're doing a second season now. Pretty good stuff.

I didn't realize Season 2 had started. I'm going to have to find it.

830 Killgore Trout  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 9:07:56am

re: #829 RogueOne

I didn't realize Season 2 had started. I'm going to have to find it.

here's some snippets....
An Idiot Abroad 2: Episode 1: Desert Island: The Best Bits

831 RogueOne  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 9:08:11am

That was easy. EZTVStream. Never heard of it before but it works

832 Gus  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 9:09:32am

Interesting. And something I've babbled about before.

A Silicon Valley School That Doesn’t Compute

LOS ALTOS, Calif. — The chief technology officer of eBay sends his children to a nine-classroom school here. So do employees of Silicon Valley giants like Google, Apple, Yahoo and Hewlett-Packard.

But the school’s chief teaching tools are anything but high-tech: pens and paper, knitting needles and, occasionally, mud. Not a computer to be found. No screens at all. They are not allowed in the classroom, and the school even frowns on their use at home.

Schools nationwide have rushed to supply their classrooms with computers, and many policy makers say it is foolish to do otherwise. But the contrarian point of view can be found at the epicenter of the tech economy, where some parents and educators have a message: computers and schools don’t mix.

Continues.

833 Gus  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 9:09:58am

New York Times. Still the best newspaper in the country.

834 Killgore Trout  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 9:10:36am

re: #831 RogueOne

That was easy. EZTVStream. Never heard of it before but it works

I use some of those sites too but I will run virus scans and/or ad aware afterwards. They will sometimes plant tracking cookies and stuff.

835 darthstar  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 9:10:48am

re: #825 RogueOne

Your new TV doesn't stream Netflix? You bought american didn't you...

My new TV is 4 years old...but it does support HD.

836 darthstar  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 9:11:35am

Okay...I just bought a Roku...figured it was worth a shot. We'll see how it works.

837 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 9:12:25am

re: #832 Gus 802

Interesting. And something I've babbled about before.

A Silicon Valley School That Doesn’t Compute

I'd like to see basic typing again. People don't even know how to format a letter anymore.

838 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 9:15:10am

re: #837 ggt

I'd like to see basic typing again. People don't even know how to format a letter anymore.

and cursive writing. It's been phased out of most schools.

Kids at work can't read my notes.

I see a big problem--what happens with historians, librarians, journalists and researchers need an advanced degree to read personal journals and diaries?

839 blueraven  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 9:20:13am

re: #832 Gus 802

Interesting. And something I've babbled about before.

A Silicon Valley School That Doesn’t Compute

Meanwhile in McAllen TX (rio grande valley) they want to equip each of the 25,000 students with an Apple iPAD at a cost of 20 million.

Now obviously this is a very different socioeconomic group, but I question the wisdom of this.

[Link: www.mysanantonio.com...]

840 Gus  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 9:20:42am

re: #838 ggt

and cursive writing. It's been phased out of most schools.

Kids at work can't read my notes.

I see a big problem--what happens with historians, librarians, journalists and researchers need an advanced degree to read personal journals and diaries?

And drawing classes. Could be everything from figure drawing, still life to drafting and technical drawing. But the basics. All you need is a book, a notebook to take notes, and a pencil or pen.

841 RogueOne  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 9:21:12am

re: #834 Killgore Trout

Good idea. Normally I'll DL tv episodes I miss if it's not on In Demand. I'm 1/2 way through the 1st episode, hilarious. The land jump is insane.

842 Gus  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 9:22:54am

re: #839 blueraven

Meanwhile in McAllen TX (rio grande valley) they want to equip each of the 25,000 students with an Apple iPAD at a cost of 20 million.

Now obviously this is a very different socioeconomic group, but I question the wisdom of this.

[Link: www.mysanantonio.com...]

That's more of a PR campaign on the part of Apple. Obviously it's not free given the price tag. IMO we over emphasize the use of computers in this society particularly in education. We spend a lot of money with hardware purchases, software, IT, maintenance, electricity, etc. But what it does is it create a crutch for people.

843 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 9:23:45am

re: #840 Gus 802

And drawing classes. Could be everything from figure drawing, still life to drafting and technical drawing. But the basics. All you need is a book, a notebook to take notes, and a pencil or pen.

Public Schools are delegated the responsiblity of creating workers, not educated individuals, IMHO.

For that, you need educated parents who are able and willing to go the distance --further if they don't have money for private education.

844 blueraven  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 9:25:05am

re: #842 Gus 802

That's more of a PR campaign on the part of Apple. Obviously it's not free given the price tag. IMO we over emphasize the use of computers in this society particularly in education. We spend a lot of money with hardware purchases, software, IT, maintenance, electricity, etc. But what it does is it create a crutch for people.

McAllen has a rich history of corruption. My concern is, who is making money off of this...other than Apple.

845 Gus  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 9:25:37am

Hey? Whatever happened to that wind-up "global" laptop scam?

846 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 9:26:58am

re: #845 Gus 802

Hey? Whatever happened to that wind-up "global" laptop scam?

I think it is still going on, I read something . . . .

847 Gus  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 9:26:59am

re: #844 blueraven

McAllen has a rich history of corruption. My concern is, who is making money off of this...other than Apple.

25,000 iPads at 25 million is 800 dollars per iPad.

Of course this will probably mean hiring another administrator for $150,000/year. Double that for benefits, retirement, etc.

848 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Tears  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 9:27:46am

re: #769 Cannadian Club Akbar

I have 12 beers and 10 hours of football. Fuckin' math.

One for pre-game to get past the talking heads spouting platitudes. One for the post-game to get past the talking heads patting themselves on the back for calling all the upsets and results correctly. That leaves 10 for 10.

849 Gus  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 9:27:50am

re: #846 ggt

I think it is still going on, I read something . . .

Ah. OK. Always seamed like global corporate BS to me. By now the thing is probably wildly outdated.

850 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 9:29:36am

re: #849 Gus 802

Ah. OK. Always seamed like global corporate BS to me. By now the thing is probably wildly outdated.

Yes and no. For kids all over the world to become contributors to the economy--they need to know how to connect to the world via computer.

It can mean the difference between eating and not eating.

851 Gus  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 9:31:29am

re: #850 ggt

Yes and no. For kids all over the world to become contributors to the economy--they need to know how to connect to the world via computer.

It can mean the difference between eating and not eating.

Meh. I don't believe everything I'm fed.

852 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 9:32:19am

re: #851 Gus 802

Meh. I don't believe everything I'm fed.

but you are fed.

853 Gus  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 9:33:49am

re: #852 ggt

but you are fed.

Yeah. I'm just living it up here in my 2 story 6,000 square foot house with the thermostat sitting at 72 with the giant widescreen HDTV playing in the background and full gourmet kitchen.

//

854 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 9:34:38am

re: #853 Gus 802

Yeah. I'm just living it up here in my 2 story 6,000 square foot house with the thermostat sitting at 72 with the giant widescreen HDTV playing in the background and full gourmet kitchen.

//

Staff, you forgot about the staff.

855 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 9:34:57am

re: #845 Gus 802

Hey? Whatever happened to that wind-up "global" laptop scam?

Why scam?

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

856 Gus  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 9:35:12am

re: #854 ggt

Staff, you forgot about the staff.

You mean a butler and a chauffeur? I gave them the day off.

//

857 blueraven  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 9:36:09am

re: #847 Gus 802

25,000 iPads at 25 million is 800 dollars per iPad.

Of course this will probably mean hiring another administrator for $150,000/year. Double that for benefits, retirement, etc.

Actually the cost is 20.5 million not 25...but still.

In some respects the cost is not a major issue...IF it could replace the cost of text books. The cost of text books are astronomical. As a parent of a child who seemed to constantly lose his, I am all to aware of the replacement cost.

Also, these are for the most part very poor kids, who are behind in technology. So I can see the program as an experiment. But at a time when most school budgets in TX are being slashed, teachers being cut...it just seems out of place right now.

858 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 9:36:27am

re: #855 Sergey Romanov

Why scam?

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

Gus thinks all efforts on the part of business are purely profit driven.

859 RogueOne  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 9:36:49am

re: #852 ggt

but you are fed.

end the fed

860 Gus  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 9:37:30am

re: #858 ggt

Gus thinks all efforts on the part of business are purely profit driven.

No I don't.

What in hell? Looks like I entered a hornets nest all of the sudden. Damn, this place can sure be testy sometimes.

861 Gus  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 9:39:42am

re: #859 RogueOne

end the fed

Paulian!

862 Gus  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 9:41:17am

re: #857 blueraven

Actually the cost is 20.5 million not 25...but still.

In some respects the cost is not a major issue...IF it could replace the cost of text books. The cost of text books are astronomical. As a parent of a child who seemed to constantly lose his, I am all to aware of the replacement cost.

Also, these are for the most part very poor kids, who are behind in technology. So I can see the program as an experiment. But at a time when most school budgets in TX are being slashed, teachers being cut...it just seems out of place right now.

Good points.

I have nothing further to add.

863 Gus  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 9:41:44am

re: #855 Sergey Romanov

Why scam?

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

Was just at that link. Thanks.

I have nothing further to add.

864 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 9:42:38am

re: #860 Gus 802

No I don't.

What in hell? Looks like I entered a hornets nest all of the sudden. Damn, this place can sure be testy sometimes.

Just the impression I've gotten, certainly not fact.

865 PhillyPretzel  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 9:45:46am

I fixed my Earthquake in Turkey story. [Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

866 blueraven  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 9:47:51am

re: #862 Gus 802

Good points.

I have nothing further to add.

Yes, its just such a dichotomy between the approaches of really poor schools and the wealthy districts like Silicon Valley.

867 Digital Display  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 9:48:13am

Good Morning Lizards
I'm ready for some football today..

868 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 9:51:52am

re: #866 blueraven

Yes, its just such a dichotomy between the approaches of really poor schools and the wealthy districts like Silicon Valley.

Is it really just money --or an educated, yet nerdy (for lack of a better word) parents? There are lots of rich communities that don't give a whit about real education --just status, grades and having the latest and greatest stuff.

869 Gus  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 9:51:57am

This is pretty funny.

@MotherJones Mother Jones
Koch-funded climate scientists reports that climate change is...real. And caused by humans. [Link: bit.ly...]

Saw that yesterday.

870 RogueOne  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 9:53:04am

re: #867 HoosierHoops

Good Morning Lizards
I'm ready for some football today..

Detroit and Atlanta didn't wait until they got on the field to fight. That's 2 incidents in 2 weeks for the lions.

871 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 9:53:05am

re: #869 Gus 802

This is pretty funny.

@MotherJones Mother Jones
Koch-funded climate scientists reports that climate change is...real. And caused by humans. [Link: bit.ly...]

Saw that yesterday.

Someone with more money and more power than the Koch borothers got to them 11@!!!!

/

872 Gus  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 9:54:07am

USA Introduces Thought Crime HR 3131

The frog in water that is the American people is slowly being brought to the boil with the help of a new bill H.R. 313, the Drug Trafficking Safe Harbor Elimination Act of 2011.

It has far ranging power to chill liberties in the USA even further ;

"To amend the Controlled Substances Act to clarify that persons who enter into a conspiracy within the United States to possess or traffic illegal controlled substances outside the United States, or engage in conduct within the United States to aid or abet drug trafficking outside the United States, may be criminally prosecuted in the United States, and for other purposes. Whoever, within the United States, conspires with one or more persons, or aids or abets one or more persons, regardless of where such other persons are located, to engage in conduct at any place outside the United States that would constitute a violation of this title if committed within the United States, shall be subject to the same penalties that would apply to such conduct if it were to occur within the United States.”

Lawyers say that under this law, the U.S. government is claiming the power to strip US citizens of their liberty and their property simply for talking with someone else about events that might well be perfectly legal where those events would take place - The very threat of a vague, overbroad conspiracy charge is likely to have a profound effect on rights to free speech, assembly, and due process.

Read on.

873 Gus  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 9:55:17am

Hecho by Republicans of course:

H.R. 313: Drug Trafficking Safe Harbor Elimination Act of 2011

112th Congress: 2011-2012
12%
88%

To amend the Controlled Substances Act to clarify that persons who enter into a conspiracy within the United States to possess or traffic illegal controlled substances outside the United States, or engage in conduct within the United States to aid or abet drug trafficking outside the United States, may be criminally prosecuted in the United States, and for other purposes.

Sponsor: Rep. Lamar Smith [R-TX21]

Status: This bill was considered in committee which has recommended it be considered by the House as a whole. Explanation: Although it has been placed on a calendar of business, the order in which legislation is considered and voted on is determined by the majority party leadership. Keep in mind that sometimes the text of one bill is incorporated into another bill, and in those cases the original bill, as it would appear here, would seem to be abandoned. [Last Updated: Oct 7, 2011 6:11AM]

874 Digital Display  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 9:56:41am

re: #870 RogueOne

Detroit and Atlanta didn't wait until they got on the field to fight. That's 2 incidents in 2 weeks for the lions.

Colts play tonight...Suck for Luck!

875 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 9:56:50am

re: #872 Gus 802

H.R. 3131

H.R. 313

876 Gus  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 9:57:03am

re: #873 Gus 802

Hecho by Republicans of course:

Wait. Looks like one dumb feck Democrat is a co-sponsor.

Cosponsors:
Adam Schiff [D-CA29]

877 blueraven  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 9:57:19am

re: #868 ggt

Is it really just money --or an educated, yet nerdy (for lack of a better word) parents? There are lots of rich communities that don't give a whit about real education --just status, grades and having the latest and greatest stuff.

No I dont think its all about money. The school district Gus linked to wants to take away computers from the classroom, while the poor district wants an ipad for every child.

I think its based on need. The wealthier kids have them at home and are probably over exposed. The poor kids are lagging in technology. So both approaches make sense theoretically.

878 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 9:58:07am

re: #877 blueraven

No I dont think its all about money. The school district Gus linked to wants to take away computers from the classroom, while the poor district wants an ipad for every child.

I think its based on need. The wealthier kids have them at home and are probably over exposed. The poor kids are lagging in technology. So both approaches make sense theoretically.

I can see that --based on need.

879 RogueOne  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 10:00:20am

Time for the ballgames to start. Enjoy the day people!

880 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 10:00:38am

re: #875 ggt

H.R. 3131

H.R. 313

Thought it sounded familiar.

“Under this bill, if a young couple plans a wedding in Amsterdam, and as part of the wedding, they plan to buy the bridal party some marijuana, they would be subject to prosecution,” said Bill Piper, director of national affairs for the Drug Policy Alliance, which advocates for reforming the country’s drug laws. “The strange thing is that the purchase of and smoking the marijuana while you’re there wouldn’t be illegal. But this law would make planning the wedding from the U.S. a federal crime.”

881 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 10:02:03am

re: #873 Gus 802

Yes, this is totally bogus bill. I forgot about it. Glad you found it again. It needs to stay in the forefront.

time to tweet, fb and email, yet again!

882 Gus  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 10:04:16am

re: #881 ggt

Yes, this is totally bogus bill. I forgot about it. Glad you found it again. It needs to stay in the forefront.

time to tweet, fb and email, yet again!

Yeah. More of that "small government" from the Drug War fanatics.

883 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 10:11:13am

re: #882 Gus 802

Yeah. More of that "small government" from the Drug War fanatics.

If birth control or the "abortion" pill become illegal in this country, it could affect reproductive rights as well.

Comstock without the post office.

884 Gus  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 10:12:29am

re: #873 Gus 802

Hecho by Republicans of course:

Sponsor:

Lamar Seeligson Smith

Lamar Seeligson Smith (born November 19, 1947) is the U.S. Representative for Texas's 21st congressional district, serving since 1987. The district includes most of the wealthier sections of San Antonio and Austin, as well as nearly all of the Texas Hill Country. He is a member of the Republican Party.

...

Ending Federal Marijuana Prohibition Act of 2011

On June 23, 2011, H.R. 2306 was introduced to Congress by Barney Frank and co-signer Ron Paul.[7] The intent of the bill was to end the Federal prohibition on Cannabis, turning over the regulation of marijuana to states (similar to alcohol). The bill was the first of its kind since prohibition began. H.R. 2306 would limit federal powers to interstate transfer; while laws for cultivation, sales, use, and taxation would be determined by each state. This bill was well received by the public, especially medical marijuana patients and activists.

Lamar Smith informed reporters that he had no intention of considering the bill or providing it with a hearing. With Smith's position as chairman of the House Committee on the Judiciary, he has great influence on what bills will be considered.

Smith stated that "Marijuana use and distribution is prohibited under federal law because it has a high potential for abuse and does not have an accepted medical use in the U.S., The Food and Drug Administration has not approved smoked marijuana for any condition or disease." This statement is highly controversial and has been disputed by many. Smith also stated "Decriminalizing marijuana will only lead to millions more Americans becoming addicted to drugs and greater profits for drug cartels who fund violence along the U.S.-Mexico border. Allowing states to determine their own marijuana policy flies in the face of Supreme Court precedent." The accuracy of these statements has been questioned.

On June 24, 2011, Lamar Smith's Facebook page was flooded with protests from citizens, asking him to change his position on the bill and calling for a fair hearing. Smith's Facebook page was temporarily taken down soon after, to be returned void of all comments related to H.R. 2306 and with future comments disabled. The National Organization for the Reform of Marijuana Laws (NORML) encouraged MMJ patients and activists to contact Smith via his phone, which was soon turned to an automatic answering machine, stating the office was closed.

...

Personal life

Smith is a Christian Scientist. His wife, Elizabeth Lynn Schaefer, is a Christian Science practitioner and teacher. He divides his time between homes in San Antonio and Hyannisport, Massachusetts.

Rather ironic isn't it? Or maybe not. That a Christian Scientist would not think that marijuana has medical properties. Given after all that marijuana is part of nature or a product "made by God." But they probably think it was "made by the devil" or a "God" in order to test us. Or something.

885 Gus  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 10:12:48am

Speaking of which. ---->

886 makeitstop  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 10:15:29am

re: #876 Gus 802

Wait. Looks like one dumb feck Democrat is a co-sponsor.

Cosponsors:
Adam Schiff [D-CA29]

Adam Schiff? Wasn't he a character on Law & Order?

887 Kronocide  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 10:22:52am
Mr. Cain, who has become a leading Republican presidential contender in several national and state polls, stirred controversy last week when he told an interviewer on CNN that he opposed abortion but did not believe that it was his role to impose his views on others. His comments drew a sharp rebuke from several of his rivals.

It's pretty clear that the Tea Party legacy is not about government spending. It's about the return of dominionist conservatism. They are more focused on 'marriage,' abortion, and the church.

888 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sun, Oct 23, 2011 6:45:37pm

re: #1 EmmmieG

I do not understand the lack of embarrassment about having fought to defend slavery.

Germans fought for even worse shit. Same post-war phenomenon.

889 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Oct 24, 2011 1:39:01am

re: #884 Gus 802

there's always more mumbo jumbo, there's an endless fountain of it, to justify throwing people into jail for no reason

America! We love imprisoning people

890 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Oct 24, 2011 1:40:58am

re: #887 BigPapa

It's pretty clear that the Tea Party legacy is not about government spending. It's about the return of dominionist conservatism. They are more focused on 'marriage,' abortion, and the church.

don't forget the klan undertones! Dominionism is basically whitey tribalism married to snake-handler chickenshit

WHEARES TEH NIRTH CERTIFICATE, GET TEH N****R OUT OF TEH WHEIT HAOUSE

891 boxhead  Mon, Oct 24, 2011 1:41:37am

re: #889 WindUpBird

there's always more mumbo jumbo, there's an endless fountain of it, to justify throwing people into jail for no reason

America! We love imprisoning people

In that we are first by volume and first per capita.... what a sad fact that is.

892 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Tue, Oct 25, 2011 4:25:42pm

re: #299 Dark_Falcon

What the Hell does that mean?

Never heard of a classless society?

893 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Tue, Oct 25, 2011 4:46:44pm

re: #493 Obdicut

Book of Job is probably my favorite fucked up bible story.

Job rules. Maybe Esau and Jacob are on par.


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