Was Planned Parenthood’s Founder Racist?

The true story of a much-maligned heroine of women’s rights
History • Views: 34,207

Here’s a very interesting and enlightening piece about one of the right wing’s most demonized figures: Margaret Sanger, founder of Planned Parenthood: Was Planned Parenthood’s founder racist?

Birth control pioneer Margaret Sanger is back in the news this week thanks to GOP presidential candidate and abortion rights opponent Herman Cain, who claimed on national television that Planned Parenthood, the visionary global movement she founded nearly a century ago, is really about one thing only: “preventing black babies from being born.” Cain’s outrageous and false accusation is actually an all too familiar canard — a willful repetition of scurrilous claims that have circulated for years despite detailed refutation by scholars who have examined the evidence and unveiled the distortions and misrepresentations on which they are based (for a recent example, see this rebuttal from The Washington Post’s Glenn Kessler).

It’s an old tactic. Even in her own day, Sanger endured deliberate character assassination by opponents who believed they would gain more traction by impugning her character and her motives than by debating the merits of her ideas. But when a presidential candidate from a major U.S. political party is saying such things, a thoughtful response is necessary.

So what is Sanger’s story?

Born Margaret Louisa Higgins in 1879, the middle child of a large Irish Catholic family, Sanger grew into a follower of labor organizers, free thinkers and bohemians. Married to William Sanger, an itinerant architect and painter, she helped support three young children by working as a visiting nurse on New York’s Lower East Side. Following the death of a patient from a then all-too-common illegal abortion, she vowed to abandon palliative work and instead overturn obscenity laws that prevented legal access to safe contraception.

Sanger’s fundamental heresy was in claiming every woman’s right to experience her sexuality freely and bear only the number of children she desires. Following a first generation of educated women who had proudly forgone marriage in order to seek fulfillment outside the home, she offered birth control as a necessary condition to the resolution of a broad range of personal and professional frustrations.

The hardest challenge in introducing Sanger to modern audiences, who take this idea for granted, is to explain how absolutely destabilizing it seemed in her own time. As a result of largely private arrangements and a healthy trade in condoms, douches and various contraptions sold under the subterfuge of feminine hygiene, birth rates had already begun to decline. But contraception remained a clandestine and delicate subject, legally banned under obscenity statutes, and women were still largely denied identities or rights independent of their relationships with men, including the right to vote.

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464 comments

1 FemNaziBitch  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 8:32:33pm

Any more or less than any other person of her day.

IIRC, she was Irish--no? Particularly interesting history between the Irish and African-Americans.

I'm so tired of people maligning Margaret Sanger. Read her autobiography before you judge.

2 freetoken  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 8:36:29pm
The hardest challenge in introducing Sanger to modern audiences, who take this idea for granted, is to explain how absolutely destabilizing it seemed in her own time.

It's very difficult to relate to life of previous times, even only a 100 years ago, and it takes at least a modicum of self-awareness and education to not assume that people of previous eras fit into our neat little categories.

3 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 8:37:06pm

re: #1 ggt

Any more or less than any other person of her day.

IIRC, she was Irish--no? Particularly interesting history between the Irish and African-Americans.

I'm so tired of people maligning Margaret Sanger. Read her autobiography before you judge.

While many sons of Erin fought in Union blue during the Civil War, they were often hostile to African-Americans, whom they feared would flock to the North after the war and compete with the Irish for jobs.

4 Targetpractice  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 8:37:31pm

re: #2 freetoken

It's very difficult to relate to life of previous times, even only a 100 years ago, and it takes at least a modicum of self-awareness and education to not assume that people of previous eras fit into our neat little categories.

Hell, it seems folks these days have a hard time just putting themselves in the mindset of 10 years ago. 100 years is like a totally foreign country.

5 Kragar  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 8:38:45pm

Cain Smears Planned Parenthood: Accuses Group of ‘Genocide,’ Says Its Goal Is To ‘Kill Black Babies’

BOB SCHIEFFER: Okay. I want to ask you, since we’re on the subject of abortion, it was at one point back there when the question of Planned Parenthood came up and you said that it was not Planned Parenthood, it was really planned genocide. Because you said Planned Parenthood was trying to put all these centers into the Black communities because they wanted to kill Black babies–

CAIN (overlapping): Yes.

SCHIEFFER: –before they were born. You still stand by that?

CAIN: I still stand by that.

SCHIEFFER: Do you have any proof that that was the objective of Planned Parenthood?

CAIN: If people go back and look at the history and look at Margaret Sanger’s own words, that’s exactly where that came from. Look– look up the history. So if you go back and look up the history– secondly, look at where most of them were built. Seventy-five percent of those facilities were built in the Black community.

6 Kronocide  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 8:38:56pm

You don't get it.

Faith is more important than facts.

Ideals are more important than reality.

Ignorance is strength

Oceana has always been at war with Eurasia

7 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 8:39:07pm

Of course, it's not just the culture shock of then and now. Sanger is being deliberately packaged as a vile racist by people who want to damage Planned Parenthood now.

8 jaunte  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 8:39:51pm
Sanger’s fundamental heresy was in claiming every woman’s right to experience her sexuality freely and bear only the number of children she desires.

Well, there's the problem, right there.

9 Targetpractice  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 8:40:28pm

re: #5 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Cain Smears Planned Parenthood: Accuses Group of ‘Genocide,’ Says Its Goal Is To ‘Kill Black Babies’

Go back and look at her words? Rather laughable when the man is playing to the Cult of Rand, which acts in total opposition to her actual words.

10 Targetpractice  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 8:44:42pm

*taps mic* This thing on?

11 freetoken  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 8:45:31pm

re: #7 SanFranciscoZionist

Of course, it's not just the culture shock of then and now. Sanger is being deliberately packaged as a vile racist by people who want to damage Planned Parenthood now.

I think the important point is to accept that whatever Sanger's moral lapses (by today's standards) were, written or acted, that does not mean that PP today is trying to do what Cain accuses.

Cain is using the same ploy as those who declare "BYRD!!" when discussing why minorities today so often chose the Democratic party as their political instrument of choice.

The basic ruse being used by Cain et. al. is to confuse the past and the present.

12 Kronocide  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 8:45:54pm

re: #8 jaunte

Well, there's the problem, right there.

Girls Just Want to Have aren't allowed to have Fun. Because if they have fun, they're slutty.

Man sluts are virile and to be celebrated.

And we wonder why there are man hating lesbians!

13 FemNaziBitch  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 8:45:54pm

Who can imagine a time in which girls and women DID NOT KNOW how their bodies worked????? Eggs-menses, sperm and all that boring stuff.

We have Margaret Sanger to thank that basic reproduction information is not illegal.

14 Kronocide  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 8:47:45pm

re: #7 SanFranciscoZionist

Of course, it's not just the culture shock of then and now. Sanger is being deliberately packaged as a vile racist by people who want to damage Planned Parenthood now.

Well then... let me pick this here contraption up and fuddle with it... ah, here's the On button... aim.. fire....

Those who cry racism are the real racists.

Huzzah!

15 FemNaziBitch  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 8:51:45pm

European Women had access to Contraception as early as the 1860's.

It took another 100 years and a Supreme Court decision to make it legal for women in the USA --land of the free.

RWNJ's are hiding their misogynist card behind their race card.

16 Kronocide  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 8:56:30pm

re: #15 ggt

American birth control activist Margaret Sanger fled to Europe in 1914 to escape prosecution under the Comstock laws, which prohibited sending contraceptive devices, or information about contraception, through the mail. Sanger learned about the diaphragm in the Netherlands and introduced the product to the United States when she returned in 1916. Sanger and her second husband, Noah Slee, illegally imported large quantities of the devices from Germany and the Netherlands. In 1925, Slee provided funding to Sanger's friend Herbert Simonds, who used the funds to found the first diaphragm manufacturing company in the U.S., the Holland-Rantos Company.[33][36]

I'd like to thank Herman Cain for raising awareness of True Patriots like Margaret Sanger.

17 wheat-dogghazi  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 8:59:28pm
But contraception remained a clandestine and delicate subject, legally banned under obscenity statutes, and women were still largely denied identities or rights independent of their relationships with men, including the right to vote.

... a situation that many in the far (religious) right would prefer to return to. Take the personhood movement in Mississippi-stan, for example.

18 FemNaziBitch  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 9:00:12pm

re: #17 wheatdogg

... a situation that many in the far (religious) right would prefer to return to. Take the personhood movement in Mississippi-stan, for example.

I don't understand these women. They are either stupid, brainwashed or utter cowards.

19 moderatelyradicalliberal  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 9:01:09pm

Maybe she was. What percentage of white America in the late 19th century do you think wasn't?

20 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 9:04:03pm

Much of the problem people have with Sanger has to do with her embrace of one cause. These next two paragraphs are quoted from the article in question:

Sanger’s eagerness to mainstream her movement explains her engagement with eugenics, a then widely popular intellectual movement that addressed the manner in which human intelligence and opportunity is determined by biological as well as environmental factors. Hard as it is to believe, eugenics was considered far more respectable than birth control. Like many well-intentioned reformers of this era, Sanger took away from Charles Darwin the essentially optimistic lesson that humanity’s evolution within the animal kingdom makes us all capable of improvement if only we apply the right tools. University presidents, physicians, scientists and public officials all embraced eugenics, in part because it held the promise that merit would replace fate — or birthright and social status — as the standard for mobility in a democratic society.

But eugenics also has some damning and today unfathomable legacies, such as a series of state laws upheld in 1927 by an eight-to-one progressive majority of the U.S. Supreme Court, including Justices Oliver Wendell Holmes and Louis Brandeis. Their landmark decision in Buck v. Bell authorized the compulsory sterilization of a poor young white woman with an illegitimate child on grounds of feeble mindedness that were never clearly established. This decision, incidentally, was endorsed by civil libertarians such as Roger Baldwin of the ACLU and W.E.B. Dubois of the NAACP, both of whom Sanger counted among her supporters and friends.

(bolding mine)

To be fair to Margaret Sanger, she had no idea of what horrors others would commit in the name of eugenics, and she never proposed anything like the mass murders committed under the Nazis infamous T4 Program. But she had let the eugenics movement her voice in its early years (to the extent of writing a pro-eugenics book titled The Pivot of History in 1922) and thus must bear some blame for the excesses that followed.

Sanger wasn't motivated by racism, not at all. But the use of some the laws she championed against blacks at the very least doesn't look good, and it was made worse by the fact that she never really gave an accounting for her early support of eugenics. To be fair, by the time she wrote her autobiography in 1938, the embrace of the rhetoric and some of the goals of the worst of those who had promoted eugenics by the Nazis meant she could hardly give an explanation without providing her foes with something to discredit her with.

So while Sanger wasn't really racist, her association with a movement that did some truly horrible things left her sometimes looking like one from the vantage point of our own time.

21 FemNaziBitch  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 9:04:12pm

re: #19 moderatelyradicalliberal

Maybe she was. What percentage of white America in the late 19th century do you think wasn't?

She also championed Eugenics. She was desparate for support from anyone at the time.

People don't understand what a battle she had and the forces she was up against. The whole archdiocese of Boston (?) was against her. They shut down her speeches and did everything they could to quiet her.

22 FemNaziBitch  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 9:05:54pm

re: #20 Dark_Falcon

It is difficult to understood how widespread the acceptane for Eugenics was at the time. She certainly wasn't out of the main-stream in her belief in it.

23 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 9:08:53pm

re: #19 moderatelyradicalliberal

Maybe she was. What percentage of white America in the late 19th century do you think wasn't?

Well, in that sense--yes, she was.

It's not that Margaret Sanger was some sort of shining light of belief in racial equality.

This is actually a difficult thing for me every time it comes up, because I do not care much for Ms. Sanger. Aside from her belief in reproductive rights, we do not have much in common. I think she was a horrible person in a lot of ways, although none of them were especially unique to her.

But neither was she some sort of cackling witch, preventing little black children from being born, while urging white women to have lots of babies.

24 wheat-dogghazi  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 9:09:14pm

re: #18 ggt

Perhaps a combination of all three. Look into the Quiverfull sect and visit this anti-quiverfull website for a glimpse into some really scary people: http://nolongerquivering.com/

From what I understand, potential opponents of the personhood amendment realized too late how much momentum this idea had behind it. They figured it was too extreme to catch on. How wrong they were. Tuesday's vote should be interesting to follow.

25 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 9:09:55pm

Eugenics in the first part of the 1920's is why whenever we read a newspaper clipping about some sleazeball or bimbo* that abused their child and we start to think that there should be someone in charge of deciding who can and can't have a baby we should think twice.

What starts with good intentions can end very, very badly.

*You abuse a child, I have no scruples at calling you a name

26 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 9:10:34pm

re: #25 EmmmieG

I meant first part of 20th century, and am too lazy to edit my post.

27 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 9:10:35pm

re: #22 ggt

It is difficult to understood how widespread the acceptane for Eugenics was at the time. She certainly wasn't out of the main-stream in her belief in it.

No, she wasn't. But many who considered themselves both traditionalists such as the Catholic Church and Progressives like William Jennings Bryan were very afraid of the threat they saw ideas about eugenics posing, and events did show their fears to be grounded in reality.

So while Sanger did think she needed to latch on to the eugenics movement to promote and defend her own cause, in doing so she allied herself with some seriously problematic ideas and gave those ideas explicit support. That does not discredit her entirely (or even mostly), but it must count against her.

28 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 9:11:19pm

re: #20 Dark_Falcon

Much of the problem people have with Sanger has to do with her embrace of one cause. These next two paragraphs are quoted from the article in question:

(bolding mine)

To be fair to Margaret Sanger, she had no idea of what horrors others would commit in the name of eugenics, and she never proposed anything like the mass murders committed under the Nazis infamous T4 Program. But she had let the eugenics movement her voice in its early years (to the extent of writing a pro-eugenics book titled The Pivot of History in 1922) and thus must bear some blame for the excesses that followed.

Sanger wasn't motivated by racism, not at all. But the use of some the laws she championed against blacks at the very least doesn't look good, and it was made worse by the fact that she never really gave an accounting for her early support of eugenics. To be fair, by the time she wrote her autobiography in 1938, the embrace of the rhetoric and some of the goals of the worst of those who had promoted eugenics by the Nazis meant she could hardly give an explanation without providing her foes with something to discredit her with.

So while Sanger wasn't really racist, her association with a movement that did some truly horrible things left her sometimes looking like one from the vantage point of our own time.

Yes and no. Eugenics was a wildly popular idea of the day, eagerly embraced by lots and lots of people who are not being trashed by wingnuts. Horrible stuff was done in its name as well, long before the Nazis got involved.

Sanger can be criticized from here to Sunday, but the reason that she's the only eugenics booster any of these people know about is that they want to trash Planned Parenthood.

29 jaunte  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 9:12:13pm

Nick Kristof has been tweeting a raid on a brothel in Cambodia:

Joining raid on brothel in Cambodia that imprisons young girls. Following @SomalyMam. Very tense.
...
Brothel owners have military ties and said to be well armed. 2 cars of police from capital, also well armed.
...
Police burst in, disarmed brothel owners, took their phones so they can't call for help.
...
Girls are rescued, but still very scared. Youngest looks about 13, trafficked from Vietnam. 3 minutes ago

30 FemNaziBitch  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 9:13:09pm

re: #24 wheatdogg

Perhaps a combination of all three. Look into the Quiverfull sect and visit this anti-quiverfull website for a glimpse into some really scary people: http://nolongerquivering.com/

From what I understand, potential opponents of the personhood amendment realized too late how much momentum this idea had behind it. They figured it was too extreme to catch on. How wrong they were. Tuesday's vote should be interesting to follow.

Now, I'm qivering.

31 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 9:13:21pm

re: #29 jaunte

Nick Kristof has been tweeting a raid on a brothel in Cambodia:

Interesting. My NANO novel character is about to raid a brothel.

32 jaunte  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 9:13:42pm

Nicholas Kristof

Social workers comforting the girls, telling them they are free, won't be punished, rapes are over.

33 William Barnett-Lewis  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 9:14:53pm

re: #29 jaunte

I always wonder how often he's being used by the owners of other brothels who are far more interesting in getting rid of competition than in helping any girls. He's always seemed more than a little naive that way.

34 FemNaziBitch  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 9:15:02pm

re: #28 SanFranciscoZionist

Sanger can be criticized from here to Sunday, but the reason that she's the only eugenics booster any of these people know about is that they want to trash Planned Parenthood.

Eugenics only makes the news if Margaret Sanger is part of the story . . .

35 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 9:15:33pm

re: #32 jaunte

Nicholas Kristof

Jesus.

36 jaunte  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 9:15:51pm

re: #33 wlewisiii

It's possible; I just don't know.

37 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 9:16:55pm

re: #33 wlewisiii

I always wonder how often he's being used by the owners of other brothels who are far more interesting in getting rid of competition than in helping any girls. He's always seemed more than a little naive that way.

Could be, but:

1. I assume the cops have some sense of the lay of the land here, and

2. At least some good will come of it.

38 OhNoZombies!  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 9:17:04pm

The issue as it stands today, is that it doesn't matter whether she, like so many of her time, was a racist. The problem I have is that Cain is overlooking issues of poverty, health, and reproductive rights in women. Specifically black women. I say this because he is appealing to the distrust that many black people in this country hold for science and health care .All the while dancing to the tune of the RW anti abortion zealots.
He's implying that planned parenthood is akin to the Tuskegee experiments and the practice of the sterilization of unwed mothers in the south a few decades ago.
It is a sick, and dangerous game he's playing.

39 moderatelyradicalliberal  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 9:17:45pm

re: #23 SanFranciscoZionist

Well, in that sense--yes, she was.

It's not that Margaret Sanger was some sort of shining light of belief in racial equality.

This is actually a difficult thing for me every time it comes up, because I do not care much for Ms. Sanger. Aside from her belief in reproductive rights, we do not have much in common. I think she was a horrible person in a lot of ways, although none of them were especially unique to her.

But neither was she some sort of cackling witch, preventing little black children from being born, while urging white women to have lots of babies.

I guess the point I was making is that if possible racism drove me away from being pro-choice, why stop there? Henry Ford was a horrible anti-semite, so should I boycott the automobile? The of conservatives who are now on this PP wants to kill black babies kick is just silly. Besides last time I checked women aren't forced to have abortions in America. They want to go after provides because they know it's politically toxic to go after women who have abortions. Saying PP wants to kill black babies is more politically safe then saying black women want to kill black babies.

40 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 9:19:38pm

re: #34 ggt

Eugenics only makes the news if Margaret Sanger is part of the story . . .

I recently saw a story about a woman who won a judgment or something. Sanger wasn't involved.

41 FemNaziBitch  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 9:19:38pm

re: #38 OhNoZombies!

The issue as it stands today, is that it doesn't matter whether she, like so many of her time, was a racist. The problem I have is that Cain is overlooking issues of poverty, health, and reproductive rights in women. Specifically black women. I say this because he is appealing to the distrust that many black people in this country hold for science and health care .All the while dancing to the tune of the RW anti abortion zealots.
He's implying that planned parenthood is akin to the Tuskegee experiments and the practice of the sterilization of unwed mothers in the south a few decades ago.
It is a sick, and dangerous game he's playing.

keep them poor and dependent -- caring for their numerous children.

/gah

42 moderatelyradicalliberal  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 9:19:57pm

re: #29 jaunte

Nick Kristof has been tweeting a raid on a brothel in Cambodia:

Speaking of child abuse have you guys heard this story?

[Link: www.nytimes.com...]

43 FemNaziBitch  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 9:20:34pm

re: #42 moderatelyradicalliberal

Speaking of child abuse have you guys heard this story?

[Link: www.nytimes.com...]

Yeah, I think it was posted earlier.

Too much money in college sports.

44 jaunte  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 9:22:09pm

re: #42 moderatelyradicalliberal

All the accusers were boys Sandusky had come to know through a charity he founded, the Second Mile, for disadvantaged children from troubled families.

I hadn't seen that part.

45 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 9:22:21pm

re: #34 ggt

Eugenics only makes the news if Margaret Sanger is part of the story . . .

In large part because those for whom eugenics was the primary cause were later either disgraced or faded into obscurity when their ideas were discredited. For Sanger, it was a secondary issue, and she continued to maintain a relatively high profile. That is the other part of why she takes the rap.

46 OhNoZombies!  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 9:23:14pm

re: #41 ggt

Absolutely. That, as well as ill, because PP isn't just about abortion, it's about reproductive health in poor women who havent the resources to go to an OBGYN.

47 FemNaziBitch  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 9:23:27pm

re: #23 SanFranciscoZionist

Well, in that sense--yes, she was.

It's not that Margaret Sanger was some sort of shining light of belief in racial equality.

This is actually a difficult thing for me every time it comes up, because I do not care much for Ms. Sanger. Aside from her belief in reproductive rights, we do not have much in common. I think she was a horrible person in a lot of ways, although none of them were especially unique to her.

But neither was she some sort of cackling witch, preventing little black children from being born, while urging white women to have lots of babies.

I think to accomplish what she did, she would have had to be the most outspoken, and totally bitchy woman of her day. It would make her easy to dislike. No coy, demur Edwardian female could have stood so strong with such an issue.

48 FemNaziBitch  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 9:26:10pm

re: #46 OhNoZombies!

Absolutely. That, as well as ill, because PP isn't just about abortion, it's about reproductive health in poor women who havent the resources to go to an OBGYN.

It's also about bringing HEALTHY babies into the world. A women needs contraception to space her pregnancies. A baby every year will kill the mother and severley hurt the fetus's chances of thriving.

Prenatal care is a relatively new thing. Ultrasounds, vitamins, etc--are soo necessary.

49 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 9:27:21pm

Speaking of children being mistreated by loons:

Prosecutor to Parents: Mailing Chickenpox Illegal

Parents fearful of vaccinations are being warned by a federal prosecutor that making a deal with a stranger who promises to mail them lollipops licked by children with chickenpox isn't just a bad idea, it's against the law.

Jerry Martin, U.S. attorney for the Middle District of Tennessee, said he was spurred by reports this week by KPHO-TV in Phoenix and WSMV-TV in Nashville about people turning to Facebook to find lollipops, spit or other items from children who have chickenpox.

"Can you imagine getting a package in the mail from this complete stranger that you know from Facebook because you joined a group, and say here, drink this purported spit from some other kid?" Martin told The Associated Press.

Isaac Thomsen, a specialist in pediatric infectious diseases at Vanderbilt Children's Hospital, said it's unlikely the items will succeed in giving other children chickenpox.

"If there's a very high load on the virus and shipped very quickly, it's theoretically possible," he said. "But it's probably not an effective way to transmit it. It typically has to be inhaled."

But Thomsen warned the lollipops could carry more dangerous viruses, including hepatitis.

Martin said it is a federal crime to send diseases or viruses across state lines, whether through the U.S. Postal Service or private services like FedEx or UPS. Sending the lollipops would be illegal under the same law that makes it illegal to mail contagions like anthrax. He said a conviction could lead to a sentence from less than a year to 20 years in prison.

SNIP

And the scandal gets worse:

Thomsen, the Vanderbilt physician, said he was even more concerned by a person in the KPHO report seeking items tainted with measles to avoid a school-required vaccination. Measles has a significant mortality rate, causes more complications and is very infectious compared with chickenpox, he said.

And law enforcement won't take any such cases lightly, Martin said.

"If you are engaged in this type of behavior, you're not only potentially exposing innocent people to dangerous viruses and illnesses and diseases, you're also exposing yourself potentially to federal criminal prosecution," he said.

Yes, the link is to Fox News. But FNC, for all its problems, does not support the anti-vaxxers, and this article does properly cite sources.

50 FemNaziBitch  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 9:28:11pm

Cain's "snuff your seed" commercials are vile.

51 FemNaziBitch  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 9:29:48pm

re: #49 Dark_Falcon

people are so stupid, brainwashed or just plain cowards.

52 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 9:29:53pm

re: #49 Dark_Falcon

I had chickenpox, full blown. My kids were immunized and still got it. Well, all but one got chickenpox. That one got chickenpock. I only ever counted one.

The difference between what I got and what they got is huge. I would never purposefully put a child through chickenpox. I was so sick, so miserable.

The kids barely noticed they were sick.

53 William Barnett-Lewis  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 9:30:42pm

re: #49 Dark_Falcon

If I said what I want to right now, Charles would ban me instantly...

54 OhNoZombies!  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 9:31:01pm

re: #48 ggt

There is no reason the U.S. should rank 34th in infant mortality.
What does this say about the values of one of the wealthiest most powerful nations on earth?

55 FemNaziBitch  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 9:32:10pm

re: #54 OhNoZombies!

There is no reason the U.S. should rank 34th in infant mortality.
What does this say about the values of one of the wealthiest most powerful nations on earth?

There are a lot of things I don't understand.

It's late.

I have to sleep.

Have a great morning/evening all!

56 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 9:34:16pm

re: #52 EmmmieG

I had chickenpox, full blown. My kids were immunized and still got it. Well, all but one got chickenpox. That one got chickenpock. I only ever counted one.

The difference between what I got and what they got is huge. I would never purposefully put a child through chickenpox. I was so sick, so miserable.

The kids barely noticed they were sick.

I had chicken pox at 24. I was sick as a dog for a week before the pox started to come up. It was vile.

Somewhere in the middle of it, I was lying on the floor in my apartment, feeling like hell, when the phone rang. It was my mother, informing me that President Clinton had apparently been having an affair with some girl named Lewinsky.

I think of chicken pox, I think of Monica Lewinsky. Yes, it's a weird association.

57 reine.de.tout  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 9:36:31pm

re: #29 jaunte

Nick Kristof has been tweeting a raid on a brothel in Cambodia:

I was just reading those tweets. The most recent:
NickKristof Nicholas Kristof
Just got word we've got to leave. Brothel owners reportedly sending reinforcements. Concern abt what might happen.
3 minutes ago Favorite Retweet Reply

58 ProBosniaLiberal  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 9:37:20pm

re: #49 Dark_Falcon

I would support the use of anti-terror laws against these clowns. They were mailing a virus through the mail, and easily could got people in the Postal System (at the least) sick. Not to mention that Chicken Pox causes more serious issues in adults.

Make an example of them.

59 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 9:38:07pm

re: #53 wlewisiii

If I said what I want to right now, Charles would ban me instantly...

I know how you feel. I've dealt with the anger I felt over the footage posted here yesterday of a woman who engaged in those sorts of practices by constructing a fantasy of her being hauled in for shipping a biohazard and then subjected to a 72-hour incommunicado hold under the Patriot Act. I know that doesn't sound good, but I don't imagine enhanced interrogation or anything like that. But I do imagine the anti-vaxxer being cut back to size.

Just a fantasy, I know, but it helps to control the anger.

61 reine.de.tout  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 9:38:42pm

re: #52 EmmmieG

I had chickenpox, full blown. My kids were immunized and still got it. Well, all but one got chickenpox. That one got chickenpock. I only ever counted one.

The difference between what I got and what they got is huge. I would never purposefully put a child through chickenpox. I was so sick, so miserable.

The kids barely noticed they were sick.

My daughter had full-blown chicken pox, she was about 15 months old. (this was before the vaccine was available). It was awful. She was miserable, purely miserable, for a week.

62 OhNoZombies!  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 9:39:35pm

I had chicken pox at 18, 2 weeks before prom.
I still have the long black gloves i used to try to cover my spotty arms.
My oldest got vaccinated and got 1 little bubble on his belly. The little one didn't get them at all.

63 ProBosniaLiberal  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 9:40:05pm

re: #57 reine.de.tout

Oh, dear god. This may turn out horrible.

64 reine.de.tout  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 9:40:30pm

The thing with chickenpox, it is apparently very contagious. I brought my daughter to the doctor's office, and they had me come in at lunchtime, and then they wouldn't let me leave through the waiting room - I had to go out the back door.

Sending something thru the mail? Geez. No telling how many people could be affected.

65 reine.de.tout  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 9:42:01pm

re: #63 ProLifeLiberal

Oh, dear god. This may turn out horrible.

I hope they got the girls out. The police were apparently searching for some known to be there, who weren't immediately found. So - the police are fearful of the brothel owners' reinforcements? Must be a terrible situation.

66 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 9:42:06pm

re: #60 publicityStunted

And here's the alternative chosen by the parents upon learning of that decision, plus the children's revenge.

OH MY GOD! THE ANTI-VAXXERS KILLED KENNY!

YOU BASTARDS!

/

67 Kragar  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 9:43:06pm

I'VE GOT A GREAT IDEA!

Instead of using a medicine on our kids because some people with no real background in medicine think it might have harmful side effects, lets expose our kids to known debilitating diseases!

Yeah, that makes sense.

68 reine.de.tout  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 9:43:40pm

re: #63 ProLifeLiberal

Oh, dear god. This may turn out horrible.

good grief - the police ARE wary of the brothel owners, who apparently have friends in the military:

NickKristof Nicholas Kristof
I've been told to rush out of town for safety. That's what I'm doing now.
5 minutes ago
»

NickKristof Nicholas Kristof
Large crowd gathered outside brothel. Police seem wary of brothel owners or military friends staging attack.

69 OhNoZombies!  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 9:43:52pm

re: #64 reine.de.tout

And the older you are when you get it the more dangerous it is. It can kill you if your immune system is weak...

70 freetoken  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 9:44:02pm

I had chickenpox sometime during my early grade school years, probably as good a time as any to get it.

Had a college roommate who got it (while in college) - poor guy was from another country and didn't have much experience with it.

71 ProBosniaLiberal  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 9:44:02pm

re: #65 reine.de.tout

I would say, call in the military, but I guess that isn't an option.

What the hell do they/we do?

72 Targetpractice  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 9:44:02pm

re: #67 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

I'VE GOT A GREAT IDEA!

Instead of using a medicine on our kids because some people with no real background in medicine think it might have harmful side effects, lets expose our kids to known debilitating diseases!

Yeah, that makes sense.

First up on the list: Polio! Surely Junior will develop an immunity to it, rather than being subjected to those dangerous vaccines!

///

73 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 9:45:01pm

re: #64 reine.de.tout

The thing with chickenpox, it is apparently very contagious. I brought my daughter to the doctor's office, and they had me come in at lunchtime, and then they wouldn't let me leave through the waiting room - I had to go out the back door.

Sending something thru the mail? Geez. No telling how many people could be affected.

When I started to break out, I didn't realize what it was. Neither did the advice nurse at Kaiser, who told me to come in so a doctor could see it.

I rode the 38 Geary bus out to Kaiser with pox breaking out on me as we went. I was undoubtedly dripping the virus on everything I touched. You're so damn contagious at that point. I hope to God I did not kill anyone.

Then I sat in the waiting room for twenty minutes. Shedding virus.

74 reine.de.tout  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 9:45:45pm

It's amazing how much news can be disseminated all over the place and immediately through a series of tweets.

I think when twitter first came along, most folks didn't quite know what to do with it. It's grown into itself.

75 William Barnett-Lewis  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 9:47:11pm

re: #59 Dark_Falcon

Well, I won't agree with your particular fantasy (heh) but the idea is seriously valid. Thank you.

76 reine.de.tout  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 9:47:17pm

re: #71 ProLifeLiberal

I would say, call in the military, but I guess that isn't an option.

What the hell do they/we do?

He is apparently working with this woman, here's her info. from twitter:

Somaly Mam
@SomalyMam Cambodia
I am an anti-slavery activist & survivor fighting 4 victims all over the world. Activiste antiesclavagiste,dedie ma vie aux victimes du monde entier. #Cambodia

77 Targetpractice  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 9:47:51pm

re: #74 reine.de.tout

It's amazing how much news can be disseminated all over the place and immediately through a series of tweets.

I think when twitter first came along, most folks didn't quite know what to do with it. It's grown into itself.

Same with texting, folks used to think that a message that short would be pointless. Now? Some folks live and die by texting.

78 OhNoZombies!  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 9:48:07pm

Well, later skaters !

79 jaunte  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 9:48:21pm

re: #76 reine.de.tout

She used to be a child slave, now has a foundation:
[Link: www.somaly.org...]

80 ProBosniaLiberal  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 9:49:06pm

re: #76 reine.de.tout

Is there a nation friendly with Cambodia nearby willing to take on Cambodia's soldiers?

And I do mean in that way.

81 jaunte  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 9:51:20pm

Goodnight all.

82 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 9:52:58pm

re: #75 wlewisiii

Well, I won't agree with your particular fantasy (heh) but the idea is seriously valid. Thank you.

Like most fantasies, its over-the-top and the 72-hour hold is not something I'd suggest in real life.

But I would suggest a Perp Walk, since I feel that such a public humiliation of one the own would cause some anti-vaxxers to obey the law, though only out of fear. I'm not a fan of such "Iron Fist"* approaches in general, since the people forced into compliance tend to hate you forever. But when dealing with minds in flight from reality, sometimes a direct threat is simply the best way to get through to them.

83 freetoken  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 9:53:05pm

And just in time, the top headline on the Drooling website's commentary page:


Beware the venom in feds' vaccinations

Exclusive: Chuck Norris urges, 'Don't check your brain at the door of your family's health'

Yup, Chuck Norris is doing the whole vaccination/autism thing.

84 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 9:54:36pm

re: #80 ProLifeLiberal

Is there a nation friendly with Cambodia nearby willing to take on Cambodia's soldiers?

And I do mean in that way.

None that would want the job. Vietnam and Thailand wouldn't do that, for fear of upsetting their trade relationships. And Vietnam has its own corruption problems like that, too.

85 William Barnett-Lewis  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 9:54:37pm

re: #80 ProLifeLiberal

Is there a nation friendly with Cambodia nearby willing to take on Cambodia's soldiers?

And I do mean in that way.

`Hrm. Possibly vietnam but it depends who they're fighting. You need a big enemy there to make a difference.

86 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 9:56:52pm

re: #82 Dark_Falcon

Like most fantasies, its over-the-top and the 72-hour hold is not something I'd suggest in real life.

But I would suggest a Perp Walk, since I feel that such a public humiliation of one the own would cause some anti-vaxxers to obey the law, though only out of fear. I'm not a fan of such "Iron Fist"* approaches in general, since the people forced into compliance tend to hate you forever. But when dealing with minds in flight from reality, sometimes a direct threat is simply the best way to get through to them.

*Note: "Iron Fist" is a common name for the kind of coercive approach I described, and was not meant as a reference to the former LGF commentator of the same (screen) name.

87 ProBosniaLiberal  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 9:57:24pm

re: #85 wlewisiii

Vietnam has a history in Cambodia already.

I guess it depends on the level of corruption. Just a few leaders? Or the whole military?

88 William Barnett-Lewis  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 9:58:26pm

re: #84 Dark_Falcon

None that would want the job. Vietnam and Thailand wouldn't do that, for fear of upsetting their trade relationships. And Vietnam has its own corruption problems like that, too.

Actually, I'll argue that Vietnam's corruption is the least in SEA. When we were there nearly 10 years ago, the fees all went to the orphanage unlike in, for example, china. Vietnam is not perfect by any imagining but it's better than the rest over there by a very long shot. IMO - IME & all that.

89 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 9:58:31pm

re: #83 freetoken

And just in time, the top headline on the Drooling website's commentary page:

Beware the venom in feds' vaccinations

Yup, Chuck Norris is doing the whole vaccination/autism thing.

Maybe he has mTBI from being kicked in the head once too often.

/Kidding, but not entirely.

90 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 9:59:28pm

re: #87 ProLifeLiberal

Vietnam has a history in Cambodia already.

I guess it depends on the level of corruption. Just a few leaders? Or the whole military?

Indeed. That's an important question.

91 ProBosniaLiberal  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 10:00:18pm

re: #88 wlewisiii

And Vietnam and India are very close, largely to counter China.

I'll say it here. I would much rather choose to be close to Vietnam than China. Given China's actions under PRC governance.

92 William Barnett-Lewis  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 10:01:39pm

re: #91 ProLifeLiberal

And Vietnam and India are very close, largely to counter China.

I'll say it here. I would much rather choose to be close to Vietnam than China. Given China's actions under PRC governance.

^^^+1000

93 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 10:05:38pm

re: #91 ProLifeLiberal

And Vietnam and India are very close, largely to counter China.

I'll say it here. I would much rather choose to be close to Vietnam than China. Given China's actions under PRC governance.

Quite Concur.

94 Lidane  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 10:05:47pm

re: #83 freetoken

Yup, Chuck Norris is doing the whole vaccination/autism thing.

Of course he is. He's a batshit crazy wingnut.

95 Kragar  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 10:06:11pm

re: #83 freetoken

And just in time, the top headline on the Drooling website's commentary page:

Beware the venom in feds' vaccinations

Yup, Chuck Norris is doing the whole vaccination/autism thing.

Chuck's been kicked in the head too often.

96 William Barnett-Lewis  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 10:06:29pm

re: #91 ProLifeLiberal

And Vietnam and India are very close, largely to counter China.

I'll say it here. I would much rather choose to be close to Vietnam than China. Given China's actions under PRC governance.

Let me see, how do I phrase this? My son is from Phan Thiet, Vietnam. He is 9 and 3/4 years old. He has nothing to do with the American War (as they call it). I will always side with Vietnam over any nation other than the US. It really is, profoundly, that simple for me.

97 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 10:10:28pm

Yes, she was.

So were most "white people", or better stated, the 1st-2nd-3rd generation Euro immigrants trying desperately to get the unearned benefits of being considered "white" at the time.

Many still are.

Margaret Sanger, though, is just a two minutes hate. The white conservative propaganda against her in the service of trying to confuse us dumb n*****s will never work, given their present-day confederate sympathies.

98 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 10:11:27pm

re: #96 wlewisiii

Let me see, how do I phrase this? My son is from Phan Thiet, Vietnam. He is 9 and 3/4 years old. He has nothing to do with the American War (as they call it). I will always side with Vietnam over any nation other than the US. It really is, profoundly, that simple for me.

I used to teach middle school ESL, and one of my students was Vietnamese. I remember that we were working on something one day, at lunch, and he kept being on verge of asking me something. Finally I asked him what it was, and he said, "Were the men in your family in the war in my country?"

He was old enough to know the history a little, and I think it suddenly occurred to him that Americans also had a history with the American War. I told him about my father's cousins who served, and he told me a little about his family's experience.

This, of course, stands in stark contrast to the awareness of the two high school students some years later who asked me if I'd BEEN in the Vietnam War.

I told them no, since, among other reasons, it had ended when I was eighteen months old. They said, "Father Nguyen was in it. He told us all about it."

I said "Father Nguyen is at least ten years older than I am, and was BORN in Vietnam. Let's think about how this might make his experience different from mine, guys."

99 Lidane  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 10:11:44pm

Looks like John Kasich's anti-union fail is set to bite him in the ass:

Poll: Ohio Set To Vote Big Against Kasich’s Anti-Union Law

The poll shows only 36% of Ohioans will vote to support the law, while a decisive 59% oppose the bill and will vote to repeal it.

Kasich’s own approval mirrors those numbers, with only 33% approval and 57% disapproval. Kasich was elected in the 2010 Republican wave, defeating incumbent Democrat Ted Strickland by a 49%-47% margin. However, when asked if they could vote again, the respondents in this poll chose Strickland by a 55%-37% margin.

From the pollster’s analysis: “Democrats are almost unanimous in their opposition to SB 5, supporting repeal by an 86-10 margin. Meanwhile there’s division in the Republican ranks- 30% are planning to vote down their Governor’s signature proposal while only 66% are supportive of it. Independents split against it by a 54/39 spread as well.”

The survey of likely voters was conducted over the weekend, from November 4-6, and has a ±3.1% margin of error.

100 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 10:12:11pm

re: #5 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Cain Smears Planned Parenthood: Accuses Group of ‘Genocide,’ Says Its Goal Is To ‘Kill Black Babies’

I love what he's doing to white confederates regarding their anti-Black race hangups.

No liberal of any stripe could accomplish anything even close.

101 Lidane  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 10:13:44pm

re: #100 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

I love what he's doing to white confederates regarding their anti-Black race hangups.

No liberal of any stripe could accomplish anything even close.

Imagine if hell freezes over and Cain gets the nomination.

102 ProBosniaLiberal  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 10:16:45pm

re: #96 wlewisiii

Also, Vietnam has a very impressive military history.

The most recent instance was Vietnamese-Cambodian War and the Sino-Vietnamese War in the 1978-1979 time area.

103 William Barnett-Lewis  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 10:17:41pm

re: #98 SanFranciscoZionist

Thank you.

104 William Barnett-Lewis  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 10:22:51pm

re: #102 ProLifeLiberal

Also, Vietnam has a very impressive military history.

The most recent instance was Vietnamese-Cambodian War and the Sino-Vietnamese War in the 1978-1979 time area.

When we were there, I had a fascinating talk with a man who had been in the ARVN as a very young man. He later ended up in a "re-education" camp. Then when the Chinese started the 1979 war, they needed experienced men. He volunteered and was freed afterwards. This fact is also why I consider the Vietnamese government less corrupt than many others in that region. They did keep their promises to their soldiers which is more than the GOP can say today.

105 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 10:23:31pm

re: #101 Lidane

Imagine if hell freezes over and Cain gets the nomination.

Fine with me if the GOP wants to force Mommyblog McTeabag to vote for Cain the Black vs Obama the Black.

106 Targetpractice  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 10:26:14pm

re: #99 Lidane

Looks like John Kasich's anti-union fail is set to bite him in the ass:

Poll: Ohio Set To Vote Big Against Kasich’s Anti-Union Law

Votes like that will be what makes or breaks Obama next year. If the GOP continues being its own worst enemy, it's going to take it in the pants on Election Day.

107 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 10:32:27pm

Goodnight, all.

108 EdDantes  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 10:54:39pm

Good morning everyone.

109 Kragar  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 10:59:36pm

Been watching "Being Human", pretty good show

110 EdDantes  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 11:08:00pm

re: #106 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

Votes like that will be what makes or breaks Obama next year. If the GOP continues being its own worst enemy, it's going to take it in the pants on Election Day.

I suspect that the GOP (of which I am a member) will nominate Alf Landon.

111 Kragar  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 11:11:21pm

re: #110 EdDantes

I suspect that the GOP (of which I am a member) will nominate Alf Landon.

It seems to me they're more likely to nominate a Greg Stillson.

112 freetoken  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 11:12:05pm

re: #110 EdDantes

Definitely not going to be the GOP candidate:

Jon Huntsman Warns The GOP: ‘You Cannot Run Away From Mainstream Science’

He's wrong, of course, in that a political party can very easily run away from mainstream science. That's quite a different question than if they can win the general election.

113 freetoken  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 11:13:46pm

Apparently dead animal skins are in vogue:

Hermes to Build Two Leather Factories as Demand Outstrips Supply

Let's just hope we don't run out of supplies of dead animals.

114 Lidane  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 11:15:44pm

re: #112 freetoken

Definitely not going to be the GOP candidate:

Jon Huntsman Warns The GOP: ‘You Cannot Run Away From Mainstream Science’

He's wrong, of course, in that a political party can very easily run away from mainstream science. That's quite a different question than if they can win the general election.

He just needs to run as a Blue Dog in 2016. The GOP is long past the point of any hope or any sanity, especially if Obama wins a second term.

115 EdDantes  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 11:18:35pm

re: #111 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

It seems to me they're more likely to nominate a Greg Stillson.

I read the Dead zone 30 years ago and didn't like it. I hope the republicans don't go for someone like that, but I don't see anyone that craven in the race.

116 Lidane  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 11:21:45pm

re: #115 EdDantes

I hope the republicans don't go for someone like that, but I don't see anyone that craven in the race.

Mitt Romney immediately comes to mind.

117 EdDantes  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 11:22:39pm

re: #112 freetoken

Oddly enough, someone on this site posted a questionnaire to determine who you favored for the republican nomination. Turns out, I favored Huntsman.

118 EdDantes  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 11:25:21pm

re: #116 Lidane

Mitt Romney immediately comes to mind.

OK. Spineless / craven what's the difference?

119 Lidane  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 11:35:58pm

My Nicaraguan friends on FB are pissed right now:

Election official: Daniel Ortega winning re-election in Nicaragua by wide margin

One-time Sandinista revolutionary Daniel Ortega took a big early lead in presidential elections Sunday, amid reports of protests and international observers being blocked from voting stations.

Ortega, the incumbent and heavy favorite, had 66 percent of the votes compared to 25 percent for his nearest challenger, Fabio Gadea. Conservative Arnoldo Aleman, a former president, was a distant third with 7 percent.

120 Lidane  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 11:36:29pm

re: #118 EdDantes

OK. Spineless / craven what's the difference?

In Mitt's case, I'm not sure.

121 EdDantes  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 11:40:13pm

re: #120 Lidane

In Mitt's case, I'm not sure.

Can we settle on " opportunistic with no core beliefs that cannot change as circumstances dictate?" Is their a Greek word for that?

122 Lidane  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 11:41:18pm

re: #121 EdDantes

Can we settle on " opportunistic with no core beliefs that cannot change as circumstances dictate?" Is their a Greek word for that?

If there is, I'm sure the Greek ministry is looking to sell it for quick cash, considering their economic shitstorm right now. Heh.

123 freetoken  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 11:47:56pm

re: #121 EdDantes

Can we settle on " opportunistic with no core beliefs that cannot change as circumstances dictate?" Is their a Greek word for that?

"politician", from the Greek word for "citizens". In other words, a politician is whatever the citizens want him/her to be.

124 freetoken  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 12:19:12am
125 EdDantes  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 12:23:06am
126 Kragar  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 12:29:56am
127 EdDantes  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 12:34:28am

re: #126 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

oy.

128 Kragar  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 12:37:45am

re: #127 EdDantes

oy.

If I'm going to pay to get a disease, I'll do it the old fashioned way and have unprotected sex with a prostitute!
/

129 Lidane  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 12:49:41am

re: #126 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Dear idiot parents,

Instead of wasting $50 on candy made with some sick kid's spit on it, just spend the same goddamn money and go to a reputable doctor and get your kids their shots like you're supposed to. Morons.

No love,
Me

130 EdDantes  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 12:59:04am

it is Marie Curie's 144th birthday and Google is commemorating it.

131 freetoken  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 1:03:06am

The finale (chorus mysticus) of Mahler's 8th symphony:

132 Summer Seale  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 1:09:06am

Everyone should read this.

Courtesy of the Atavistic Assholes of the Religious Right:

Friendly Atheist: Michigan Senate Says it's OK to Bully if it's in the name of Jesus.

133 Kragar  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 1:13:52am

re: #132 Summer

Everyone should read this.

Courtesy of the Atavistic Assholes of the Religious Right:

Friendly Atheist: Michigan Senate Says it's OK to Bully if it's in the name of Jesus.

Is it ok to bully Christians in the name of Crom?

134 engineer cat  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 1:35:10am

re: #132 Summer

Everyone should read this.

Courtesy of the Atavistic Assholes of the Religious Right:

Friendly Atheist: Michigan Senate Says it's OK to Bully if it's in the name of Jesus.

i know - i'll come up with a religion who's most holy authority tells his followers that they must help the unlucky and powerless most of all

135 researchok  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 1:37:26am

Morning, all

136 Kragar  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 1:39:08am

re: #134 engineer dog

i know - i'll come up with a religion who's most holy authority tells his followers that they must help the unlucky and powerless most of all

That will never catch on.

137 EdDantes  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 1:43:56am

Nite all

138 wheat-dogghazi  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 2:03:35am

re: #134 engineer dog

I give it 50 years, tops. Then it'll become an overbearing, authoritarian, money grubbing church organization.

139 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 2:12:26am

re: #15 ggt

European Women had access to Contraception as early as the 1860's.

Actually, they had access to contraception much, much earlier. But then the plagues came... and Europe needed to repopulate its work forces. So the knowledge was lost. John M. Riddle has some interesting things to say about this historical regression in knowledge of and access to birth control.

140 Cannadian Club Akbar  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 2:49:50am

Morning Honcos.

141 wheat-dogghazi  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 2:56:48am

Yo

142 Sol Berdinowitz  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 3:01:17am

re: #139 000G

And it has a lot to do with womens' standing in society: if they have the ability to control birth they are able to control their sexual activities to an extent that people like Rick Santorum find unacceptable.

Remember, lots of these people are not just opposed to Planned Parenthood (with capital letters), they are opposed to planned parenthood (in small leters) as a concept.

143 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 3:10:06am

re: #142 ralphieboy

And it has a lot to do with womens' standing in society: if they have the ability to control birth they are able to control their sexual activities to an extent that people like Rick Santorum find unacceptable.

It also has a lot to do with why people find it unacceptable, i.e. why they think government should control reproduction or why reproduction should happen without any human control. It makes a difference whether you have some scripture-based patriarchic ideas about life, or whether you subscribe to demographic-winter theories that veer into full-fledged political and economical visions.

There's even been instances of the workers' movement railing as birth control, denouncing it as a bourgeois method to keep the numbers of the proletariat down, thus preventing it from reaching revolutionary mass.

144 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 3:45:02am

re: #142 ralphieboy

Well, they're opposed to the concept of a woman telling them the word "no".

145 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 3:46:34am

re: #144 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

Well, they're opposed to the concept of a woman telling them the word "no".

Insufficient explanation, because there are a significant number of women on board with anti-contraception measures.

146 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 3:46:52am

re: #126 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

I've heard of people bringing their kids over to a kid's house who had the chicken pox to expose them. But, eww.

147 Obdicut  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 3:51:16am

Apparent good news out of Ohio:

[Link: livewire.talkingpointsmemo.com...]

A new survey from Public Policy Polling (D) shows Ohio Democrats and public employee unions likely to win a big victory on Tuesday in the referendum on Republican Gov. John Kasich’s anti-public union bill, SB-5.

The poll shows only 36% of Ohioans will vote to support the law, while a decisive 59% oppose the bill and will vote to repeal it.

Kasich’s own approval mirrors those numbers, with only 33% approval and 57% disapproval. Kasich was elected in the 2010 Republican wave, defeating incumbent Democrat Ted Strickland by a 49%-47% margin. However, when asked if they could vote again, the respondents in this poll chose Strickland by a 55%-37% margin.

From the pollster’s analysis: “Democrats are almost unanimous in their opposition to SB 5, supporting repeal by an 86-10 margin. Meanwhile there’s division in the Republican ranks- 30% are planning to vote down their Governor’s signature proposal while only 66% are supportive of it. Independents split against it by a 54/39 spread as well.”

It's a good sign that even 1/3 of the GOP voters are against this bill. Even better that such a large majority of independents are against it.

148 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 3:53:00am

re: #145 000G

Insufficient explanation, because there are a significant number of women on board with anti-contraception measures.

Well yeah, I used to be one. There were also plenty of women who were against suffrage, too.

Some really do think they shouldn't have as much rights as men.

149 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 3:54:59am

re: #148 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

Well yeah, I used to be one. There were also plenty of women who were against suffrage, too.

Some really do think they shouldn't have as much rights as men.

I know. But for those women the reason you cited does not hold. They are not men, so "the concept of a woman telling them [them being the women opposed to contraception, in this case] the word 'no'." does not hold.

150 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 4:02:38am

re: #149 000G

I know. But for those women the reason you cited does not hold. They are not men, so "the concept of a woman telling them [them being the women opposed to contraception, in this case] the word 'no'." does not hold.

"Telling them the word 'no'" is just a phrase to represent a concept, not something literal. There are women who deeply resent the idea that some of us have no problem telling them, too, the word no.

In other words, "no, you as an anti-contraception woman do not get to dictate what I can and cannot do." It really upsets some of them. Oh well.

151 Obdicut  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 4:03:12am

Another death penalty case with enormous doubt is going through in Texas.

[Link: gawker.com...]

152 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 4:05:28am

re: #147 Obdicut

There're gonna be referendums like this all over the country.

I'd like to see the phrasing change, rather than "anti-union" I think the main problem is more "anti-pension". And not anti-pension in general? Some amounts that are being paid out are stupidly huge. Marjorie who worked the payment window for 35 years in the "Treasurer's Office" is probably not the problem

Pensions are going to choke out budgets, even Jerry Brown's gonna have to face it.

We have a contract with the current retirees, it seems wrong to renege on that promise (no matter how bloated it may be, unless it was improperly set up), but looking forward? I think there are limits that can be set.

153 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 4:06:58am

re: #152 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

There're gonna be referendums like this all over the country.

I'd like to see the phrasing change, rather than "anti-union" I think the main problem is more "anti-pension". And not anti-pension in general? Some amounts that are being paid out are stupidly huge. Marjorie who worked the payment window for 35 years in the "Treasurer's Office" is probably not the problem

Pensions are going to choke out budgets, even Jerry Brown's gonna have to face it.

We have a contract with the current retirees, it seems wrong to renege on that promise (no matter how bloated it may be, unless it was improperly set up), but looking forward? I think there are limits that can be set.

What do you consider to be bloated?

154 sattv4u2  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 4:07:22am

re: #152 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

How's your knee doing, Sally?

155 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 4:11:30am

re: #153 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

[Link: sacramento.cbslocal.com...]

156 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 4:11:56am

re: #154 sattv4u2

Hurts.

157 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 4:13:08am

re: #153 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

re: #155 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

[Link: sacramento.cbslocal.com...]

I meant to quote that. Can't imagine a public employee earning over 100K a year after retirement.

158 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 4:13:29am

re: #150 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

Hm. The way you worded 144, it sounded like you were refering to intercourse for the sake of impregnation suggested to women by men (the latter being "them") with the "no".

159 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 4:15:21am

re: #152 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

We have a contract with the current retirees, it seems wrong to renege on that promise (no matter how bloated it may be, unless it was improperly set up)

Thank you for acknowledging this much. It is wrong to fleece people.

160 sattv4u2  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 4:16:55am

re: #156 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Hurts.

What happened?
Trip over a little kid while you were running towards the dessert tray!?!?!

//

(I tease, because I love!!)
((well that , and because I CAN!!))

161 Obdicut  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 4:17:12am

re: #152 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

There're gonna be referendums like this all over the country.

I'd like to see the phrasing change, rather than "anti-union" I think the main problem is more "anti-pension".

I'm sorry, that's not true. The law is about limiting collective bargaining, not about pensions.

Pensions are going to choke out budgets, even Jerry Brown's gonna have to face it.

Then governments shouldn't promise things that they can't pay to workers.

We have a contract with the current retirees, it seems wrong to renege on that promise (no matter how bloated it may be, unless it was improperly set up), but looking forward? I think there are limits that can be set.

Sure. That's not what this law is.

162 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 4:19:42am

re: #157 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

re: #155 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I meant to quote that. Can't imagine a public employee earning over 100K a year after retirement.

Yeah, that's nuts, though it's "school officials". Both my parents were CalSTRS retirees. Let's just say, they were definitely not school officials.

163 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 4:19:53am

re: #161 Obdicut

Then governments shouldn't promise things that they can't pay to workers.

I guess the reasoning is that the unions should not be able to make demands to begin with so that politicians cannot be pressured into making promises.

Which is a great way to solve social conflicts. ///

164 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 4:20:56am

re: #158 000G

Hm. The way you worded 144, it sounded like you were refering to intercourse for the sake of impregnation suggested to women by men (the latter being "them") with the "no".

No, it was much more general than just that.

165 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 4:21:35am

re: #164 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

No, it was much more general than just that.

Yes, I understood that by the point I wrote that post.

166 sattv4u2  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 4:23:03am

re: #163 000G

I guess the reasoning is that the unions should not be able to make demands to begin with so that politicians cannot be pressured into making promises.

Which is a great way to solve social conflicts. ///

Thats an interesting point,,, sarc tags or not

Perhaps we can delve into this later,, as I am very short on time, but think about it

The union and a politician are sitting across from each other at the bargaining table
Union says "heres "xxxx" number of members ready to vote for your re-election if you agree to our list,,,,, OTOH ,,, here's the same number willing to vote for your opponent if you don't!"

167 Obdicut  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 4:24:40am

re: #166 sattv4u2

And?

168 Sol Berdinowitz  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 4:25:16am

re: #166 sattv4u2

Thats an interesting point,,, sarc tags or not

The union/corporate representative and a politician are sitting across from each other at the bargaining table
Union/corporate rep says "heres "xxx" number of members ready to vote/"xxx" number of dollars for you if you agree to our list,,, OTOH ,,, here's the same number willing to vote/to be given to your for your opponent if you don't!"

169 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 4:26:15am

re: #167 Obdicut

And?

And unions should be neutered because fascist politicians cannot be blackmailed through sneaky democratic tricks, apparently.

170 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 4:28:23am

If it wasn't for unions and welfare, government could work!
///

171 Sol Berdinowitz  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 4:30:44am

re: #170 000G

If it wasn't for unions and welfare, government could work!
///

And if it wasn't for minimum wage, we could have full employment!!!

/

172 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 4:32:33am

re: #161 Obdicut

Are pensions negotiated in the collective bargaining process? How do you feel about the pension issues?

I've been reading more about pensions lately, I might be hyper-focused on that issue.

173 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 4:32:37am

re: #171 ralphieboy

And if it wasn't for minimum wage, we could have full employment!!!

/

Federal tyrrany!!

Gubbamint overreach!

174 sattv4u2  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 4:32:49am

re: #167 Obdicut

And?

I haven't a clue

000G's 163 just made me think of that scenario

Does it happen? I dunno.

Could it happen? I can see that it could.

What to do about it? Again, I dunno.

But as I stated, time is short right now but I will think about it


What are your thoughts on it? (excluding any possibility of eliminating public sector unions, because I'm not advocating that)

175 Obdicut  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 4:34:00am

re: #172 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Are pensions negotiated in the collective bargaining process? How do you feel about the pension issues?

I've been reading more about pensions lately, I might be hyper-focused on that issue.

I feel that pensions are something that have been used to the detriment of workers, since they were usually given in lieu of actual pay increases, and now are being used to tar and feather those who accepted them. So, I think unions going forward should concentrate more on real pay increases and less on pensions, because they're just used to attack them.

Can I ask why you were under the impression that the bill was mainly about pensions?

176 sattv4u2  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 4:34:35am

re: #168 ralphieboy

But see, that the point

In the private sector, the union has no such leverage over management. The union can't say "if you don't give in, we're not voting for Joe Smith to be the CEO

177 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 4:34:41am

re: #172 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Are pensions negotiated in the collective bargaining process?

Yes. In part, it determines wages, since government workers pay a part of their wage into the pension fund for later.

178 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 4:34:54am

re: #171 ralphieboy

And if it wasn't for minimum wage, we could have full employment!!!

/

If I was naive, I would say: The Right/Conservatives/GOP are lucky that OWS is as radical as it gets on the Left when it comes to movements. But I am sure the more lucid of their thinkers know their policies, once implemented, simply further the social radicalization process. They are a lot more into vanguard politics than their left counterpart...

179 sattv4u2  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 4:34:54am

BBL (a few hours)

180 Obdicut  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 4:35:22am

re: #174 sattv4u2

My thoughts on it? On voters communicating to an elected official what it is they want?

I think that's a good thing. Whether or not the particular demand is a good thing depends entirely on the circumstances.

But the scenario you presented is just voters saying "We want this, and if we don't get it, we won't be voting for you."

I don't see what there is to really think about that. That'd how democracy works.

181 HappyWarrior  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 4:36:05am

The same people who call Sanger a racist are the same people who defend the Southern Strategy and people like Jesse Helms. I can't say her support of eugenics was right but it was unfortunately not an uncommon position to hold in those times. And you know even if Sanger wasn't a proponent of eugenics. They'd still be looking for something to legitimize birth control and abortion rights advocates for.

182 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 4:37:22am

re: #178 000G

Strange paradox: The perfected virtue of pragmatism and compromise on the moderate elite is increasingly paralyzing them from driving any agenda.

183 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 4:38:24am

re: #181 HappyWarrior

The same people who call Sanger a racist are the same people who defend the Southern Strategy and people like Jesse Helms. I can't say her support of eugenics was right but it was unfortunately not an uncommon position to hold in those times. And you know even if Sanger wasn't a proponent of eugenics. They'd still be looking for something to legitimize birth control and abortion rights advocates for.

Eugenics, racial hygiene, anti-miscegenation laws, criminalization of so-called race mixing, etc., is conservative, anyway.

So I don't know why the dumb confederates are always barking about it. Anything to try and distance themselves from their past, I guess.

184 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 4:40:15am

re: #150 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

I saw the movie "Cheaper by the Dozen" years ago, the old good one (Clifton Web/Myrna Loy), not the Steve Martin/Bonnie Hunt pile o' crap;

The couple, he, an efficiency expert/she, a psychologist, have twelve kids. Local Suffrage/Pro-Contraceptive lady came calling. Expecting her to be like minded (not knowing that she has 12 kids).

I remember thinking; Where are they going to find common ground?

They didn't.

185 Sol Berdinowitz  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 4:41:24am

re: #176 sattv4u2

But see, that the point

In the private sector, the union has no such leverage over management. The union can't say "if you don't give in, we're not voting for Joe Smith to be the CEO

And the government does not have the private-sector leverage of simply shutting down operations and moving them overseas if unions organize or place demands they do not find acceptable...

186 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 4:42:41am

re: #175 Obdicut

Can I ask why you were under the impression that the bill was mainly about pensions?

I've been reading more about pensions lately, I might be hyper-focused on that issue.

187 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 4:42:59am

re: #184 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I need to see Cheaper By the Dozen. I'm a big Myrna Loy fan. Jeezus, she was beautiful.

188 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 4:44:33am

Crap. Working on Monday? What? I don't work on Mondays!

Have to work today.

Boo.

189 HappyWarrior  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 4:44:57am

re: #183 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

Eugenics, racial hygiene, anti-miscegenation laws, criminalization of so-called race mixing, etc., is conservative, anyway.

So I don't know why the dumb confederates are always barking about it. Anything to try and distance themselves from their past, I guess.

They like to convince themselves the KKK is a liberal organization which is a hilarious mental jumping jack.

190 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 4:45:28am

re: #187 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

I need to see Cheaper By the Dozen. I'm a big Myrna Loy fan. Jeezus, she was beautiful.

Make sure you see the old one. Not the pile o' crap.

191 Obdicut  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 4:46:35am

re: #184 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

The book is very good. By the way, those two people-- Lillian and Frank Gilbreth-- were responsible for huge increases in worker safety and health. And Lillian was very much a suffragette person, so she did have common ground on that regard.

They were the first experts to promote the idea that a happy, content workforce was a better thing than an intimidated, scared workforce. They recommended factories make life easier for their workers, with day cares, ergonomics, rest breaks, educational opportunities, and the rest. They got a lot of criticism from conservatives at the time who thought they were moddycoddling workers.

Lillian did a lot of work on gendered labor laws, showing that laws that failed to take into account gender were often de facto discriminatory against women in pointless ways, since scientific management could ameliorate the supposed 'deficiencies' of women which were normally just a workplace set up not conducive to them.

Two of my biggest heroes.

192 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 4:47:34am

re: #189 HappyWarrior

They like to convince themselves the KKK is a liberal organization which is a hilarious mental jumping jack.

True lol. They're just dishonest, miserable people, starting with their own view of themselves.

Why they expect others to buy into those delusions, though, I've never been clear on.

193 Decatur Deb  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 4:47:52am

re: #172 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Are pensions negotiated in the collective bargaining process? How do you feel about the pension issues?

I've been reading more about pensions lately, I might be hyper-focused on that issue.

Can't speak to the hundreds of varied local and state pension plans, but federal pay and pensions are essentially set by law. And the federal unions have no ability to legally strike. In essence you had the same voice in setting my pension that I did.

194 Flounder  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 4:48:10am

Global Foundries is building a new chip fab plant for AMD, (I think I got that right) may have liquidity problems:
[Link: www.timesunion.com...]

195 HappyWarrior  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 4:48:41am

re: #192 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

True lol. They're just dishonest, miserable people, starting with their own view of themselves.

Why they expect others to buy into those delusions, though, I've never been clear on.

Hah yeah. They'll call the KKK liberal and then complain about liberals supporting diversity.

196 Obdicut  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 4:50:01am

re: #186 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Can I ask why you were under the impression that the bill was mainly about pensions?

Okay. Well, although the bill does limit collective bargaining on pensions and allows town managers and the like to simply throw out contracts during 'financial crises', it is not mainly about pensions, so framing it as such is very inaccurate.

Do you get my point that pensions are often accepted in lieu of actual pay raises? It's often a kick-the-can tactic by politicians who don't want to go on record raising the pay of union members and instead make pension promises, knowing that someone else will have to deal with the fallout down the road.

This bill was designed to capitalize on that tactic, allowing government to make wild pension promises and then simply negate them later.

But the bill has a lot more to it than that-- it prohibits negotiations about all benefits, like day care, maternity leave, health insurance, mental health programs, job-training, etc. etc. In addition to the terrible idea of allowing contracts to simply be junked in times of 'financial crisis'. Makes the idea of a contract laughable.

I would fully support a cap on pension amount, which I feel would benefit unions since they wouldn't be forced to accept pension agreements that politicians will later try to weasel out of.

197 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 4:52:47am

re: #195 HappyWarrior

Hah yeah. They'll call the KKK liberal and then complain about liberals supporting diversity.

...and then go join the Council of Conservative Citizens, and have a FIT when someone says anything about when the politicians they vote for, pander to that group.

The stupid, it burns.

198 Obdicut  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 4:53:10am

re: #184 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I do remember the passage you're talking about, and the perspective of the woman was ridiculous-- that children amount to a limitation on the ability of a woman to work. Part of Lillian's subtle point was that that argument is exactly the one that companies used in order to justify lower pay for women.

My favorite part of the book I think is the car trip where Lillian finally blows up at Frank (when they're in the car with all the kids and everyone is giving them attention and Frank is playing to the crowd) and says "This is not the antepenultimate, nor the penultimate, but the ultimate."

199 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 4:55:18am

re: #193 Decatur Deb

Not union related at all.

My BIL is a retired Air Force officer. Now is a teacher at "War College" (not officially that, just what I call it). 4000 square foot house, two lexus', forty grand on a kitchen remodel last year.).

That boy done good for himself. I don't begrudge it, but fuck! Our government is a great place to work; but, it's hard to pay for.

200 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 4:56:59am

re: #199 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Deb? What's the level of a 1st Lt?

201 Vicious Babushka  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 4:58:02am

re: #198 Obdicut

I do remember the passage you're talking about, and the perspective of the woman was ridiculous-- that children amount to a limitation on the ability of a woman to work. Part of Lillian's subtle point was that that argument is exactly the one that companies used in order to justify lower pay for women.

My favorite part of the book I think is the car trip where Lillian finally blows up at Frank (when they're in the car with all the kids and everyone is giving them attention and Frank is playing to the crowd) and says "This is not the antepenultimate, nor the penultimate, but the ultimate."

One thing that totally bothered me when I was reading the book (I was in 8th grade) was that only 11 children participated in the family adventures. There was a 12th child, Mary, but she is never mentioned in the book as being actively part of the family. Did she die at birth? Was she developmentally disabled and institutionalized? It was never explained. I assumed that she passed away at a young age, but she could have been institutionalized.

202 Decatur Deb  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 4:58:32am

re: #199 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Not union related at all.

My BIL is a retired Air Force officer. Now is a teacher at "War College" (not officially that, just what I call it). 4000 square foot house, two lexus', forty grand on a kitchen remodel last year.).

That boy done good for himself. I don't begrudge it, but fuck! Our government is a great place to work; but, it's hard to pay for.

The military retirement system is not at all like the civil service. If your BIL realized that lifestyle from his retirement only, he must have been an O7 or better. War is not cheap.

203 Decatur Deb  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 4:59:00am

re: #200 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Deb? What's the level of a 1st Lt?

O3. Sorry. Make that O2.

204 Obdicut  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 5:00:04am

re: #200 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Deb? What's the level of a 1st Lt?

After 26 years, it was $41,774.40 as base pay.

[Link: money.cnn.com...]

You get 75% of your base pay if you serve 30 years. So even if we pretend that guy is getting 75% of that $41,774,40, he gets $31,330 a year. Hardly a fortune for spending decades in the military.

205 Obdicut  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 5:00:57am

re: #201 Alouette

She died of diphtheria at age 6.

206 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 5:01:26am

re: #204 Obdicut

I know. I've never figured out how he did it.

I've asked him if he was a spy for the Chinese.

I thought it was a funnier joke than he did.

207 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 5:02:54am

re: #204 Obdicut

Some people are incredibly fantastic managers of money.

Some are not.

Me? I have no elastic in my underwear and my car's on E.

208 Vicious Babushka  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 5:03:05am

re: #205 Obdicut

She died of diphtheria at age 6.

That was in pre-vaccination, pre-antibiotic days. Lots of child deaths that are totally preventable today.

209 rwdflynavy  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 5:03:18am

re: #206 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I know. I've never figured out how he did it.

I've asked him if he was a spy for the Chinese.

I thought it was a funnier joke than he did.

If he is a professor at one of the War Colleges, he makes a very good salary on top of his retirement. Not quite a 1%er, but close.
//

210 Decatur Deb  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 5:04:14am

re: #204 Obdicut

Almost no one retires as 1LT. It's almost entry level for an officer. Could have been in and out of the reserve a lot.

211 Obdicut  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 5:04:48am

re: #206 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Well, if he's pulling a pension and a salary as a teacher, then that seems to explain it on its own-- in addition, I suspect, to having been thrifty with his pay while in service.

A friend of mine actually works for a nonprofit that helps servicemen manage debt. A lot of the poor bastards are losing money while in the military, basically. He's advocating for financial training to be a part of boot camp.

"DID YOU JUST SIGN A PAYDAY LOAN GRUNT? THAT'S FISCALLY IRRESPONSIBLE. DROP AND GIVE ME TEN REASONS WHY PAYING CASH FOR A USED CAR WITH GOOD RELIABILITY IS A BETTER IDEA THAN LEASING A NEW ONE."

212 Decatur Deb  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 5:05:04am

re: #207 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Some people are incredibly fantastic managers of money.

Some are not.

Me? I have no elastic in my underwear and my car's on E.

You have a car? and underwear? Occupy FBV.

213 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 5:05:09am

re: #210 Decatur Deb

I'm obviously wrong about rank. Was in AF for 30 years. 20 years Navigator on B52.

214 Decatur Deb  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 5:06:49am

re: #211 Obdicut

Well, if he's pulling a pension and a salary as a teacher, then that seems to explain it on its own-- in addition, I suspect, to having been thrifty with his pay while in service.

A friend of mine actually works for a nonprofit that helps servicemen manage debt. A lot of the poor bastards are losing money while in the military, basically. He's advocating for financial training to be a part of boot camp.

"DID YOU JUST SIGN A PAYDAY LOAN GRUNT? THAT'S FISCALLY IRRESPONSIBLE. DROP AND GIVE ME TEN REASONS WHY PAYING CASH FOR A USED CAR WITH GOOD RELIABILITY IS A BETTER IDEA THAN LEASING A NEW ONE."

One of the Army's old training films is titled "No Down Payment for E3 and Above".

215 rwdflynavy  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 5:07:09am

re: #213 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I'm obviously wrong about rank. Was in AF for 30 years. 20 years Navigator on B52.

Probably retired as a Colonel. Maybe a Lt Colonel if he was prior enlisted.

216 Obdicut  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 5:07:42am

re: #210 Decatur Deb

Almost no one retires as 1LT. It's almost entry level for an officer. Could have been in and out of the reserve a lot.

Heh. That reminds me of this one tester I had at EA. The first thing he did was say that he'd been in the military, and loved it. I thought 'cool' because in general I like ex-military guys, since they like structure, I like structure, and they will actually do what I tell them to. So I asked how long he was in the military and he said ten years. I thought "Awesome" to myself, figuring he was a noncom who'd had some serious responsibility and started sizing him up as a team lead.

I asked him what rank he'd mustered out at and he said E-3.

E-3. Ten years. And he loved it. What the fuck?

Don't they just kick your ass out at some point if you stay at E-3 for too long?

217 Feline Fearless Leader  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 5:08:25am

re: #192 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

True lol. They're just dishonest, miserable people, starting with their own view of themselves.

Why they expect others to buy into those delusions, though, I've never been clear on.

Bizarre, scary, and obnoxious mix of propaganda tactics (repeat lie often enough and people believe it), magical thinking (repeat something often enough and it will come true), projection, willful ignorance, and five-year-old child tantrum. With a good dollop of whatever the opposite of empathy is.

218 Gus  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 5:08:28am

re: #213 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I'm obviously wrong about rank. Was in AF for 30 years. 20 years Navigator on B52.

Assuming he was a Captain...

$38,349 cumulative after taxes. It goes up. After 10 years out it climbs to $52,266 a year.

My secret weapon: [Link: militarypay.defense.gov...]

219 rwdflynavy  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 5:08:35am

re: #216 Obdicut

Heh. That reminds me of this one tester I had at EA. The first thing he did was say that he'd been in the miltiary, and loved it. I thought 'cool' because in general I like ex-military guys, since they like structure, I like structure, and they will actually do what I tell them to. So I asked how long he was in the military and he said ten years. I thought "Awesome" to myself, figuring he was a noncom who'd had some serious responsibility and started sizing him up as a team lead.

I asked him what rank he'd mustered out at and he said E-3.

E-3. Ten years. And he loved it. What the fuck?

Don't they just kick your ass out at some point if you stay at E-3 for too long?

There must have been a story there, like he got busted down to E3 before he got out.

220 Decatur Deb  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 5:08:56am

re: #213 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I'm obviously wrong about rank. Was in AF for 30 years. 20 years Navigator on B52.

Buddy was a navigator on Looking Glass. Another flew B36's. Dad was a radioman on Decatur Deb.

221 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 5:09:23am

re: #217 oaktree

Bizarre, scary, and obnoxious mix of propaganda tactics (repeat lie often enough and people believe it), magical thinking (repeat something often enough and it will come true), projection, willful ignorance, and five-year-old child tantrum. With a good dollop of whatever the opposite of empathy is.

Sociopathy.

222 Decatur Deb  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 5:10:10am

re: #216 Obdicut

Heh. That reminds me of this one tester I had at EA. The first thing he did was say that he'd been in the military, and loved it. I thought 'cool' because in general I like ex-military guys, since they like structure, I like structure, and they will actually do what I tell them to. So I asked how long he was in the military and he said ten years. I thought "Awesome" to myself, figuring he was a noncom who'd had some serious responsibility and started sizing him up as a team lead.

I asked him what rank he'd mustered out at and he said E-3.

E-3. Ten years. And he loved it. What the fuck?

Don't they just kick your ass out at some point if you stay at E-3 for too long?

Not in the old days. My short-tempered uncle made corporal several times.

223 Obdicut  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 5:10:28am

re: #219 rwdflynavy

There must have been a story there, like he got busted down to E3 before he got out.

Am I right that they wouldn't just let a guy sit around at E-3?

And he turned out to be an incompetent jackass, so there probably was. I figured there was some way I could ask to see his discharge stuff but I didn't want to humiliate the guy. If he didn't want to explain why he was only a private I wasn't going to ask, I just didn't give him much important to do and he did even that badly. And made lots of fart noises with his mouth. And I had to talk to him about his diet, because his actual flatulence was almost room-clearing.

I do not miss that job.

224 Gus  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 5:10:38am

Summary table for a Major after 30 years.

[Link: militarypay.defense.gov...]

225 rwdflynavy  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 5:11:49am

re: #223 Obdicut

Am I right that they wouldn't just let a guy sit around at E-3?

And he turned out to be an incompetent jackass, so there probably was. I figured there was some way I could ask to see his discharge stuff but I didn't want to humiliate the guy. If he didn't want to explain why he was only a private I wasn't going to ask, I just didn't give him much important to do and he did even that badly. And made lots of fart noises with his mouth. And I had to talk to him about his diet, because his actual flatulence was almost room-clearing.

I do not miss that job.

Like Decature Deb said, he probably made E3 and higher a couple times. These days, you have to make E6 to stay 10, at least in the Navy. Up or out is the motto.

Time for class. Be good Lizards!

226 Feline Fearless Leader  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 5:13:13am

re: #216 Obdicut

Heh. That reminds me of this one tester I had at EA. The first thing he did was say that he'd been in the miltiary, and loved it. I thought 'cool' because in general I like ex-military guys, since they like structure, I like structure, and they will actually do what I tell them to. So I asked how long he was in the military and he said ten years. I thought "Awesome" to myself, figuring he was a noncom who'd had some serious responsibility and started sizing him up as a team lead.

I asked him what rank he'd mustered out at and he said E-3.

E-3. Ten years. And he loved it. What the fuck?

Don't they just kick your ass out at some point if you stay at E-3 for too long?

I think they think about kicking you out at a lot of ranks if you stagnate there too long. Especially O ranks. Knew someone who was a Navy O-2 (Lt j.g.) who didn't re-up after his initial stint because he didn't make O-3 and thus was likely to get cut anyways.

Given some of his stories I could see why this was happening. Suffice to say his personality was not necessarily conducive to being a team player.

227 Gus  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 5:13:24am

Bleh. Depressing. Think I'll have a smoke and get pneumonia if I'm lucky.

228 Obdicut  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 5:13:42am

re: #222 Decatur Deb

Not in the old days. My short-tempered uncle made corporal several times.

My grandpa (Pacific Theater, WWII, ACOE, landing boat guy) never made it past captain because he had a CO who had it in for him. He was pretty bitter about it. Then we refused to give veterans benefits to the Filipinos, even those that had served and died under the command of US officers, and he became really disenchanted with the military.

229 Decatur Deb  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 5:15:37am

re: #225 rwdflynavy

Like Decature Deb said, he probably made E3 and higher a couple times. These days, you have to make E6 to stay 10, at least in the Navy. Up or out is the motto.

Time for class. Be good Lizards!

Up-or-Out (introduced after Viet Nam) has a lot of downside. A friend in Italy was an E7 motor SGT who was forced out because the board found "No promotion potential". He told me he just wanted to run the best motor pool in the Army, and he might have.

230 Obdicut  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 5:18:05am

re: #229 Decatur Deb

That's really damn stupid. According to my grandpa and every one of his buddies from WWII I talked to, a well-placed sergeant is the most important thing on earth. And one of the main duties of sergeants is to 'upwardly manage' their green lieutenants.

231 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 5:18:54am

Morning Lizardim. It's the calm before the storm here in the wild north country; the winds have been blowing for the last few days, but now it is clear and cold and we are bracing for the first snow of the '11-'12 winter season. Only this time, I'm significantly better armed.

232 Decatur Deb  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 5:19:34am

BBL

233 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 5:19:57am

re: #228 Obdicut

My grandpa (Pacific Theater, WWII, ACOE, landing boat guy) never made it past captain because he had a CO who had it in for him. He was pretty bitter about it. Then we refused to give veterans benefits to the Filipinos, even those that had served and died under the command of US officers, and he became really disenchanted with the military.

White-only US officers on top of it, I believe. There was no room for advancement of men of color until (theoretically) 1950, when military desegregation began in earnest.

The issue of the Filipino soldiers was finally rectified a couple years ago.

234 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 5:21:02am

re: #228 Obdicut

BIL had exemplary service. Throws a big party every year, last year I went and met three Generals.

Like I said, I think the Chinese...

235 Gus  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 5:22:30am
236 Feline Fearless Leader  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 5:23:11am

re: #229 Decatur Deb

Up-or-Out (introduced after Viet Nam) has a lot of downside. A friend in Italy was an E7 motor SGT who was forced out because the board found "No promotion potential". He told me he just wanted to run the best motor pool in the Army, and he might have.

Probably in part an over-compensation for issues in the past with "dead wood" building up in senior positions. This clogs out advancement opportunities and often leads to stagnation and heavy resistance to innovation and change.

Besides, how else do you get to put a supply officer in charge?

237 Obdicut  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 5:24:57am

re: #233 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

The issue of the Filipino soldiers was finally rectified a couple years ago.

Too little, too late, in my view. Many of those men died before that settlement, and many more had health issues from the war that went untreated or cost them personally to deal with all those years.

Grandpa worked with the Filipinos a lot during the war and said their average cadre morale and bravery put the US army to complete shame.

238 Decatur Deb  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 5:29:48am

re: #233 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

White-only US officers on top of it, I believe. There was no room for advancement of men of color until (theoretically) 1950, when military desegregation began in earnest.

The issue of the Filipino soldiers was finally rectified a couple years ago.

So we're a little slow. Look how long Galileo had to wait. (I remember we made things right for the surviving Navy Phillipino mess stewards a while back. The white-only officer corps must have been off-and-on. We had a famous case of the West Point cadet who was screwed over after the Civil War War of Northern Aggresion Late Misunderstanding.)

239 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 5:30:23am

yo

240 iossarian  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 5:31:34am

I re-watched Master and Commander a few weeks ago and, germane to this conversation, they're in the process of "up or outing" the luckless kid who ends up drowning himself out of guilt*. He can't make Lieutenant and they're about to kick him out of the Navy. But then he jumps and ship's fortunes change.


* I know, spoilers. Darth is also Luke's father.

241 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 5:32:51am

re: #238 Decatur Deb

So we're a little slow. Look how long Galileo had to wait.

lol

242 Vicious Babushka  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 5:33:41am

re: #240 iossarian

I re-watched Master and Commander a few weeks ago and, germane to this conversation, they're in the process of "up or outing" the luckless kid who ends up drowning himself out of guilt*. He can't make Lieutenant and they're about to kick him out of the Navy. But then he jumps and ship's fortunes change.

* I know, spoilers. Darth is also Luke's father.

Bruce Willis was dead the entire time!

243 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 5:34:25am

re: #242 Alouette

Bruce Willis was dead the entire time!

Rosebud was a sled!

244 Obdicut  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 5:37:00am

re: #243 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

Rosebud was a sled!

John Wayne shot Lee Marvin. It wasn't Jimmy Stewart.

246 Decatur Deb  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 5:37:05am

"It's a cookbook!!"

247 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 5:39:23am

re: #244 Obdicut

John Wayne shot Lee Marvin. It wasn't Jimmy Stewart.

The pretty singer in the dress is really a man!

248 Feline Fearless Leader  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 5:40:13am

Good morning Lizards from foggy Philadelphia. Dropping into the 30s overnight from the 50s and thus the condensation conditions.

249 Obdicut  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 5:40:29am

re: #247 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

The writer Tim Robbins kills wasn't the guy threatening him.

250 Flounder  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 5:41:24am

Soylent Green is people!

251 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 5:41:42am

Snape kills Dumbledore.

252 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 5:41:54am

re: #250 Shropshire_Slasher

Soylent Green is people!

If you can call that people...///

253 Decatur Deb  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 5:42:04am

The Persians and the Mexicans win. The Zulus don't.

254 Obdicut  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 5:42:49am

re: #253 Decatur Deb

Butch and Sundance die at the end.

255 Decatur Deb  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 5:43:11am

re: #254 Obdicut

Butch and Sundance die at the end.

Maybe.

256 Obdicut  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 5:44:33am

re: #255 Decatur Deb

Maybe.

Oh, you romantic.

Maybe they're off somewhere with Thelma and Louise planning the heist of all heists.

257 Gus  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 5:45:02am
258 Vicious Babushka  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 5:45:18am

re: #256 Obdicut

Oh, you romantic.

Maybe they're off somewhere with Thelma and Louise planning the heist of all heists.

Tower Heist!

(I realize it's probably really lame but I want to see it)

259 Obdicut  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 5:46:12am

re: #258 Alouette

A friend of mine worked on it, and says it's incredibly lame. It was originally supposed to star Chris Rock, but that didn't happen and a lot of those working on it kind of lost enthusiasm and just churned it out.

260 Gus  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 5:46:36am

re: #254 Obdicut

Butch and Sundance die at the end.

Ted Cassidy was in that movie. See #235.

261 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 5:46:54am

re: #257 Gus 802

surreal bovine choreography

[Video]

Just copy and paste and you'll be a millionaire!

262 FemNaziBitch  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 5:47:26am

Morning all!

Did you sleep well?

263 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 5:48:44am

re: #262 ggt

Did you sleep well?

I made a few mistakes.

264 FemNaziBitch  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 5:49:31am

Bother Puppy likes to sit on the bed and look at Mirror Puppy in the dresser mirror. They have a special relationship. This morning, he decided to sit on ME to look at Mirror Puppy.

Strange, Mirror Puppy sat on Mirror Me to watch Bother Puppy.

How does that work?

:)

265 Gus  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 5:49:33am

re: #261 Sergey Romanov

Just copy and paste and you'll be a millionaire!

266 FemNaziBitch  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 5:49:51am

re: #263 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I made a few mistakes.

AS long as they didn't wake you up.

267 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 5:50:17am

re: #265 Gus 802

[Video]

Pardon, millionair, yes.

268 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 5:51:01am

re: #264 ggt

Bother Puppy likes to sit on the bed and look at Mirror Puppy in the dresser mirror. They have a special relationship. This morning, he decided to sit on ME to look at Mirror Puppy.

Strange, Mirror Puppy sat on Mirror Me to watch Bother Puppy.

How does that work?

:)

Mirrors is just another mystery if nature, like magnets and tides. All prove God.

269 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 5:51:07am

re: #218 Gus 802

Lt. Colonel.

270 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 5:53:41am

re: #218 Gus 802

Just looked at that graph.

Gubmint starts sending out death squads after ten years of retirement.
/

271 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 5:53:59am

re: #264 ggt

Bother Puppy likes to sit on the bed and look at Mirror Puppy in the dresser mirror. They have a special relationship. This morning, he decided to sit on ME to look at Mirror Puppy.

Strange, Mirror Puppy sat on Mirror Me to watch Bother Puppy.

How does that work?

:)

((((Bother Puppy))))

272 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 5:54:52am

re: #271 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

(((Bother Puppy)))

{{{Mirror Puppy}}}

273 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 5:56:14am

Sometimes it hurts me to say things; but as a masochist I say them anyway.

I miss Bill Clinton.

274 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 5:56:30am

re: #272 Sergey Romanov

{{{Mirror Puppy}}}

Lol I love Bother Puppy reports.

275 Decatur Deb  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 5:56:56am

re: #270 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Just looked at that graph.

Gubmint starts sending out death squads after ten years of retirement.
/

Social Security and most retirement plans were based on the notion that would be unnecessary.

276 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 5:56:57am

re: #274 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

I'm hooked too.

277 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 5:57:59am

re: #274 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

I enjoyed Dave Barry the most when he wrote about his dog and his back-up auxiliary dog.

ggt's musings have a nice rhythm about them.

278 Gus  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 5:58:01am

re: #269 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Lt. Colonel.

$51,006 base retirement after taxes.

Using the default settings.

279 FemNaziBitch  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 5:58:11am

re: #274 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

Lol I love Bother Puppy reports.

Mirror Puppy is ALWAYS there with Bother Puppy wants to look at him. They seem to enjoy looking at each other.

280 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 5:58:12am

Still waiting the moment he finally becomes the Gentleman Puppy.

281 FemNaziBitch  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 5:59:00am

re: #280 Sergey Romanov

Still waiting the moment he finally becomes the Gentleman Puppy.

Maybe when he comes back from Hunting Camp in the Spring.

282 Gus  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 5:59:52am

We borrow money from China to run the Federal gubernment so it really is teh Chinese!

Chinlee!

283 Decatur Deb  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 6:00:09am

re: #273 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Sometimes it hurts me to say things; but as a masochist I say them anyway.

I miss Bill Clinton.

A little ED could have put him with Eisenhower in the standings.

284 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 6:00:25am

re: #279 ggt

Mirror Puppy is ALWAYS there with Bother Puppy wants to look at him. They seem to enjoy looking at each other.

285 Vicious Babushka  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 6:01:05am

re: #259 Obdicut

A friend of mine worked on it, and says it's incredibly lame. It was originally supposed to star Chris Rock, but that didn't happen and a lot of those working on it kind of lost enthusiasm and just churned it out.

Is it as lame as Thor? I watched Thor over the weekend. Totally lame! I can't understand how Natalie Portman got involved in this turkey.

286 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 6:01:42am

re: #285 Alouette

Is it as lame as Thor? I watched Thor over the weekend. Totally lame! I can't understand how Natalie Portman got involved in this turkey.

Natalie Portman's career has been suffering ever since the train wreck that was Episode III.

287 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 6:01:44am

re: #285 Alouette

Thor made me thore.

288 Gus  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 6:01:54am
289 Vicious Babushka  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 6:03:17am

re: #259 Obdicut

A friend of mine worked on it, and says it's incredibly lame. It was originally supposed to star Chris Rock, but that didn't happen and a lot of those working on it kind of lost enthusiasm and just churned it out.

Was Eddie Murphy originally supposed to play the fat Black chick? Then they put him into the Chris Rock role and got Precious into the Murphy role?

290 Decatur Deb  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 6:04:09am

re: #278 Gus 802

$51,006 base retirement after taxes.

Using the default settings.

Consensus of retirees in the room is that the table needs a lot of analysis.

291 Vicious Babushka  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 6:04:32am

Are there any GOOD recent movies?

Last week I watched "Paul." That was good.

292 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 6:06:31am

re: #291 Alouette

Do you watch horror comedy?

293 Gus  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 6:06:43am

re: #290 Decatur Deb

Consensus of retirees in the room is that the table needs a lot of analysis.

294 FemNaziBitch  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 6:08:08am

Jane Eyre was well done if you haven't had enough of the Bronte Sisters in your life.

295 Vicious Babushka  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 6:08:23am

re: #292 Sergey Romanov

Do you watch horror comedy?

I like comedy, horror not so much.

296 Vicious Babushka  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 6:09:05am

I'm getting tired of the Hollywood trend to make a movie out of every Marvel comic book.

297 iossarian  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 6:10:20am

re: #291 Alouette

The new adaptation of Tinker Tailor Soldier Spy is meant to be brilliant. US release is December 9 it seems:

[Link: www.focusfeatures.com...]

I will definitely be seeing it. The book is awesome and the original BBC adaptation is stellar.

298 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 6:10:24am

re: #292 Sergey Romanov

Do you watch horror comedy?

I just saw Fido, which is not recent, it's 2006. Weird movie, but I might have to re-rent it, if only for the cars. Gorgeous cars in it.

299 Decatur Deb  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 6:10:55am

re: #293 Gus 802

[Video]

Social Realism. CPL O'Reilly is bitching while he scarfs up the dreck.

300 Vicious Babushka  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 6:11:28am

re: #297 iossarian

The new adaptation of Tinker Tailor Soldier Spy is meant to be brilliant. US release is December 9 it seems:

[Link: www.focusfeatures.com...]

I will definitely be seeing it. The book is awesome and the original BBC adaptation is stellar.

I'm sure Zedushka will want to see that. He is all totally into UK spy dramas.

301 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 6:12:34am

re: #298 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

Ooh, thanks for the tip, looks interesting.

302 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 6:16:13am

[Link: www.telegraph.co.uk...]

"This entity (Israel) can be compared to a kidney transplanted in a body that rejected it," he said. "Yes it will collapse and its end will be near."

303 iossarian  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 6:17:22am

re: #300 Alouette

I'm sure Zedushka will want to see that. He is all totally into UK spy dramas.

Plus Colin Firth for the laydies.

304 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 6:17:28am

re: #296 Alouette

I'm getting tired of the Hollywood trend to make a movie out of every Marvel comic book.

While I agree, Captain America was fairly well done. Some of the others, er, not so much.

Also, if you're at all into the animated movie scene, Puss in Boots was just released. The Mrs. Fish and I are dying to go see it.

305 Vicious Babushka  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 6:18:36am

re: #302 Sergey Romanov

[Link: www.telegraph.co.uk...]

Ron Paul says we should make friends with them!

306 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 6:19:06am

re: #305 Alouette

Ron Paul says we should make friends with them!

Send him there and don't let him come back until he makes friends!//

307 Feline Fearless Leader  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 6:20:44am

re: #296 Alouette

I'm getting tired of the Hollywood trend to make a movie out of every Marvel comic book.

Locked-in audience (or so hoped.) General plot-lines already written. And a form ready-made to be buried in over-the-top special effects. Unfortunately this leaves lots of room to ignore that a good picture still needs a combination of good writing, good acting, and good production.

308 OhNoZombies!  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 6:21:25am

How was The Green Lantern? Was it kid friendly?
I always kinda liked Ryan Reynolds...yum.

309 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 6:23:24am

re: #307 oaktree

Locked-in audience (or so hoped.) General plot-lines already written. And a form ready-made to be buried in over-the-top special effects. Unfortunately this leaves lots of room to ignore that a good picture still needs a combination of good writing, good acting, and good production.

One of the things that pisses me off about Hollywood, that started in the late 90's and has been a continuing trend ever since, is the terrible camera work during fight scenes. Yes, I get that it's supposed to make the fight look visceral and realistic, but if I'm going to an action movie, I want to actually SEE THE DAMN FIGHT, not see two vaguely human-shaped blobs on a wobbly screen. For this reason, I give a big thumbs-up to the recently released The Three Musketeers - well-executed plot, decentish acting, and the camera work was solid all the way around.

310 FemNaziBitch  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 6:26:16am

Have A GREAT DAY All!

311 Feline Fearless Leader  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 6:32:26am

re: #309 thedopefishlives

One of the things that pisses me off about Hollywood, that started in the late 90's and has been a continuing trend ever since, is the terrible camera work during fight scenes. Yes, I get that it's supposed to make the fight look visceral and realistic, but if I'm going to an action movie, I want to actually SEE THE DAMN FIGHT, not see two vaguely human-shaped blobs on a wobbly screen. For this reason, I give a big thumbs-up to the recently released The Three Musketeers - well-executed plot, decentish acting, and the camera work was solid all the way around.

I understand that this movie is allowing the tapping of Dumas' tomb as a power source now.

312 Vicious Babushka  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 6:33:41am

The new Hollywood trend is to film everything in 3D because what other reason is there for going to a movie theater instead of waiting for the Blu Ray and watching it at home on a 50" screen?

313 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 6:34:17am

re: #311 oaktree

I understand that this movie is allowing the tapping of Dumas' tomb as a power source now.

It wasn't quite as bad as all that, from what I understand. But, as is the case with any movie adaptation of an extremely good book, of course it's not perfectly true to the original story.

314 Sol Berdinowitz  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 6:38:37am

re: #305 Alouette

Ron Paul says we should make friends with them!

Condi Rice says we should try and "bring down" Iran.

So here's the problem - one that cannot be solved with sound byte-friendly slogans:

There are plenty of people in Iran who oppose the current government. But the more the US applies pressure on the Iranian government, the more the iranian government can gain support by pointing out the "common threat" of US "interference".

And even the most moderate government that might replace the current one would probably still not be "moderate " enough for US tastes or interests.

315 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 6:42:26am

re: #314 ralphieboy

F'ed up situation all around.

316 garhighway  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 6:42:44am

re: #314 ralphieboy

Condi Rice says we should try and "bring down" Iran.

So here's the problem - one that cannot be solved with sound byte-friendly slogans:

There are plenty of people in Iran who oppose the current government. But the more the US applies pressure on the Iranian government, the more the iranian government can gain support by pointing out the "common threat" of US "interference".

And even the most moderate government that might replace the current one would probably still not be "moderate " enough for US tastes or interests.

Morning all, from sunny and mild NYC. New Yorkers are happy today: the Jets and Giants both won.

Someone should ask Condi what the US's track record is when it comes to trying to affect regime change in foreign countries. I don't recall that being a core skill set of ours.

317 Feline Fearless Leader  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 6:43:06am

re: #313 thedopefishlives

It wasn't quite as bad as all that, from what I understand. But, as is the case with any movie adaptation of an extremely good book, of course it's not perfectly true to the original story.

Now that is a truly sublime understatement. Updinged accordingly.

318 iossarian  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 6:54:00am

re: #311 oaktree

I understand that this movie is allowing the tapping of Dumas' tomb as a power source now.

Hehe. You said "Dumas".

(Yes, the Beavis and Butthead revival is in full swing.)

319 Feline Fearless Leader  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 6:54:32am

re: #316 garhighway

Morning all, from sunny and mild NYC. New Yorkers are happy today: the Jets and Giants both won.

Someone should ask Condi what the US's track record is when it comes to trying to affect regime change in foreign countries. I don't recall that being a core skill set of ours.

Any country "moderate" enough for another country's tastes and interests has something seriously wrong with it. Cooperation is possible. Shared interests are possible. But there are going to be differences of opinion and interest simply due to location, economics, and cultural variation.

320 darthstar  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 6:55:03am

Mornin' everyone...nice to wake up at home. The Sierras were pretty, but my brain isn't ready for snow yet.

Okay...time to run the boys.

Catch you all in a little while.

321 OhNoZombies!  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 6:56:23am
322 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 7:01:04am

An informative article:

"WHAT IRANIAN LEADERS REALLY SAY ABOUT DOING AWAY WITH ISRAEL"

323 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 7:02:55am

re: #302 Sergey Romanov

[Link: www.telegraph.co.uk...]

His metaphorical ways for saying that Israel sucks and shall be done away with get weirder and weirder. He is running out of fresh material, methinks.

324 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 7:04:27am

re: #323 000G

#322, not so much metaphor ;)

325 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 7:05:32am

re: #324 Sergey Romanov

#322, not so much metaphor ;)

Israel is not really a kidney, so you know what I mean. :P

326 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 7:06:23am

re: #325 000G

The previous statements I mean.

327 lawhawk  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 7:12:18am

Greets and saluts from the crisp and cool NYC metro area. As a Giants fan, I've got to love the fact that Manning beat the Patriots again in a key spot. Big win for a team that's got tons of injuries and wasn't given much of a chance. Real nice to see.

What isn't nice to see? The Penn State sex abuse scandal and how college officials knew of the abuse, but didn't report it to law enforcement. Two have stepped down, and are facing charges of their own.

I think that's just the start.

And this will definitely put a stain on Paterno's legacy there. He hasn't been implicated, but could he have done more? I think so.

328 Eventual Carrion  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 7:18:34am

re: #83 freetoken

And just in time, the top headline on the Drooling website's commentary page:

Beware the venom in feds' vaccinations

Yup, Chuck Norris is doing the whole vaccination/autism thing.

Yet the last time I saw him (Chucky) he looked like he had been injected with healthy doses of Botox more than once. Wonder what they use to make that Botox, oh that's right, a bacteria that causes botulism.

Beware the botulism in the narcissists treatments.

329 iossarian  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 7:19:46am

re: #327 lawhawk

Greets and saluts from the crisp and cool NYC metro area. As a Giants fan, I've got to love the fact that Manning beat the Patriots again in a key spot. Big win for a team that's got tons of injuries and wasn't given much of a chance. Real nice to see.

What isn't nice to see? The Penn State sex abuse scandal and how college officials knew of the abuse, but didn't report it to law enforcement. Two have stepped down, and are facing charges of their own.

I think that's just the start.

And this will definitely put a stain on Paterno's legacy there. He hasn't been implicated, but could he have done more? I think so.

Completely bizarre story. Looks as if the cover-up went all the way up to the President.

How anyone in a position of authority thought it was smart to cover this up is beyond me. But then it's not like that hasn't happened before...

330 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 7:21:07am

re: #329 iossarian

Completely bizarre story. Looks as if the cover-up went all the way up to the President.

How anyone in a position of authority thought it was smart to cover this up is beyond me. But then it's not like that hasn't happened before...

People honestly seem to think that if they cover it up and make it quietly go away, nobody will talk and the whole thing will just disappear. Then they seem honestly shocked when the details inevitably spill out further on down the road. I just don't understand why people haven't learned by now.

331 Feline Fearless Leader  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 7:23:59am

re: #327 lawhawk

Greets and saluts from the crisp and cool NYC metro area. As a Giants fan, I've got to love the fact that Manning beat the Patriots again in a key spot. Big win for a team that's got tons of injuries and wasn't given much of a chance. Real nice to see.

What isn't nice to see? The Penn State sex abuse scandal and how college officials knew of the abuse, but didn't report it to law enforcement. Two have stepped down, and are facing charges of their own.

I think that's just the start.

And this will definitely put a stain on Paterno's legacy there. He hasn't been implicated, but could he have done more? I think so.

The discussion on Philly sports talk radio yesterday while I was driving was about that subject. (Philly sports talk is a sewer, but occasionally they do cover something effectively.)

My take is that Paterno covered his butt legally by saying something about it (at least once.) Beyond that he appears to have looked the other way. Which may have been legally permissable, but was not the ethical or moral way to handle the situation. And given how much of the reputation he has given the football program there is based on supposedly ethical and moral behavior I think considerable damage has been done to his legacy and their program there.

I also think anyone on the management/command chain above Sandusky (as of when the incidents took place) should step down. They were either complicit in the cover-up or negligent in their duties.

And I see that a few administrators are being arraigned for perjury. When you're valuing your football program over the safety of children you deserve the book to be thrown at you.

332 lawhawk  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 7:31:25am

re: #329 iossarian

And it went on for 13 years? And there's a 3 year investigation before they starting bringing the charges over the weekend?

Penn State needs a house cleaning from the top on down, and that includes anyone remotely associated with decision making in the athletic program (Joe P included).

There's no excuse for looking the other way. Joe P may have done what was minimum legally required by informing his superiors, but when nothing was done? Sorry, the moral and ethically correct thing should have been to report him to law enforcement. No way you stand by and do nothing while he's abusing kids. Not something I'd do, not something I'd ever counsel if I were the school legal counsel, and not something I'd do if ever put in a position to have to issue any kind of guidance to the school officials involved.

You report it to law enforcement. Period.

They didn't. On top of that, they worked out a deal with Sandusky to keep him from bringing kids on camps. Not firing him - just keeping him from bringing kids on campus.

Kids he interacted with via the charity he set up. [deleted]

333 wheat-dogghazi  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 7:34:30am

re: #308 OhNoZombies!

GL was OK, and the violence was all comic-book. Little ones might get freaked out by Parallax, though. Imagine a huge many-tentacled thing made of rock (or something) with a face that makes the Wicked Witch look beautiful. It sucks the life out of you like a Dementor.

Speaking as a big GL fan, the flick did a passable job of showing the origin of the Hal Jordan GL, his testy relations with the Guardians, and his run-ins with an arrogant Sinestro, who at the very end of the flick puts on a yellow Power Ring. Sequel time!

It wasn't as good as Spider-Man, or the most recent Batman and Superman redos, but much better than Thor and, dare I say it, Daredevil and Elektra.

334 Obdicut  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 7:35:15am

re: #332 lawhawk

It's pretty horrific, and sadly not uncommon for people to prefer not to confront the problem, to just look away. The reported ages of some of the kids is... well, a lot of so-called pedophiles are just unethical ephebophiles, taking advantage of naive young people but who are actually physically sexually mature. It's sleazy and shitty behavior, but--

This asshole appears to have been preferentially targeting kids before sexual maturity of any sort. And that's incredibly harmful, just so clearly evil, predatory, with no possible self-deluded excuse.

335 BongCrodny  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 7:36:34am

re: #287 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Thor made me thore.

God help me, I *still* remember this one from Boys' Life magazine when I was a Scout about a million years ago:

The Thunder God
Went for a ride
On his favorite filly
"I'm Thor!" he cried
The horse replied
"You forgot your thaddle, thilly!"

336 iossarian  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 7:38:07am

re: #332 lawhawk

It really is mystifying.

Of all the "flagship" state institutions that I keep tabs on, Penn State was already near the top of my "trouble list". Budget woes, creaky relationship with the state, and lesser national reputation for academics (as compared to, say, Berkeley, UCLA, Michigan, Virginia and a few others).

Their athletic department is also feeling the pinch of the downturn - they're beginning to have trouble squeezing football money out of their fans.

Now they have to get rid of large chunks of their leadership? Big, big trouble.

337 OhNoZombies!  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 7:39:08am

re: #333 wheatdogg

Thanks. :-)
I read Daredevil comics as a kid & loved it. Daredevil the movie...ugh!

338 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 7:40:29am

re: #333 wheatdogg

It wasn't as good as Spider-Man, or the most recent Batman and Superman redos, but much better than Thor and, dare I say it, Daredevil and Elektra.

B-b-but Jennifer Garner!

/Oh, hi, Mrs. Fish, you're looking exceptionally beautiful today

339 Gus  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 7:43:39am

Bad news!

@AlanColmes Alan Colmes
Gloria Allred To Hold Press Conference With Fourth Cain Accuser [Link: colm.es...] #p2

340 Interesting Times  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 7:45:15am

Edited to remove jinx :) Pic stays:

Image: A78460_051.JPG

341 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 7:47:13am

re: #339 Gus 802

Bad news!

@AlanColmes Alan Colmes
Gloria Allred To Hold Press Conference With Fourth Cain Accuser [Link: colm.es...] #p2

I have no idea who she is, care to fill a noob in?

342 wheat-dogghazi  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 7:48:00am

re: #338 thedopefishlives

Yeah, Jennifer Garner. The rest of the movie, forget it.

343 wheat-dogghazi  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 7:49:08am

Like to stay and chat, folks, but it's almost midnight in China, and I have 8 am classes to teach tomorrow. So, g'nite!

344 Gus  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 7:49:23am

re: #341 thedopefishlives

I have no idea who she is, care to fill a noob in?

Start here.

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

Hard to put in words. She's like a pop-star pseudo-feminist attorney. Involved in the Scot Peterson case.

345 Obdicut  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 7:50:36am

re: #339 Gus 802

Prediction: the same people that were totally all about her when she was raking Polanski over the fire will now dismiss her.

346 Gus  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 7:50:40am

re: #344 Gus 802

Start here.

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

Hard to put in words. She's like a pop-star pseudo-feminist attorney. Involved in the Scot Peterson case.

Very dramatic. Coaches her clients to cry a lot. Known for making mountains out of mole hills. Very LA. Big time LA.

347 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 7:51:13am

re: #346 Gus 802

Very dramatic. Coaches her clients to cry a lot. Known for making mountains out of mole hills. Very LA. Big time LA.

Groan. So in other words, we can expect a media spectacle the likes of which we haven't seen in years.

348 Gus  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 7:51:35am

Ambulance chaser.

349 Interesting Times  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 7:52:24am

re: #348 Gus 802

Ambulance Skirt chaser.

Fixed.

350 Political Atheist  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 7:52:59am

re: #341 thedopefishlives

I have no idea who she is, care to fill a noob in?

Some chase ambulances, Gloria Allred chases news vans. I admire her rights advocacy but dislike the trial by media style she puts out. She seems to be the PR mouthpiece for her clients despite the existence of pro PR handllers.

351 Feline Fearless Leader  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 7:54:28am

re: #347 thedopefishlives

Groan. So in other words, we can expect a media spectacle the likes of which we haven't seen in years.

So, is this good or bad for Cain?
- Keeps the financing thing on page 6
- Keeps his name in the news (any publicity is good publicity)
- Assuming this turns into a circus it's going to allow him to continue claiming victim status
- Keeps focus away from actual policy discussion

352 Gus  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 7:56:32am

re: #351 oaktree

So, is this good or bad for Cain?
- Keeps the financing thing on page 6
- Keeps his name in the news (any publicity is good publicity)
- Assuming this turns into a circus it's going to allow him to continue claiming victim status
- Keeps focus away from actual policy discussion

IMO? It'll help Cain.

353 Feline Fearless Leader  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 8:00:08am

re: #352 Gus 802

IMO? It'll help Cain.

Is it good or bad for the GOP?

Which I guess hinges on whether you think a longer duration of Cain as a contender for the GOP nomination is a good thing.

354 Gus  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 8:01:40am

re: #353 oaktree

Is it good or bad for the GOP?

Which I guess hinges on whether you think a longer duration of Cain as a contender for the GOP nomination is a good thing.

Probably good for the GOP since Allred will play into the stereotypes thus bolstering their case.

355 Obdicut  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 8:01:55am

re: #352 Gus 802

IMO? It'll help Cain.

Especially if this accuser has any credibility issues. But I think it'll only really help with the GOP, not so much with independents.

356 Lidane  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 8:03:21am

Limited government! Individual rights! Jobs!

Maine Gov: Let’s Drug Test Welfare Recipients

I wish someone would explain this malarkey to me. How does it solve anything to randomly drug test people on welfare? Isn't that just a colossal waste of government resources? Besides, it's been struck down as unconstitutional before. What's the point?

357 Feline Fearless Leader  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 8:05:15am

re: #356 Lidane

Maine Gov: Let’s Drug Test Welfare Recipients

I wish someone would explain this malarkey to me. How does it solve anything to randomly drug test people on welfare? Isn't that just a colossal waste of government resources? Besides, it's been struck down as unconstitutional before. What's the point?

Creating jobs in the drug-testing lab industry? I presume they have a lobby too and just want their little slice of the pie as well.
//

358 Obdicut  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 8:05:46am

re: #356 Lidane

It's been proved to be completely ineffectual and pointless, costing a shitload of money in Florida and producing no good result at all.

So yeah, it's just more useless government spending supported by the GOP. There's a lot of that.

359 Lidane  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 8:06:50am

re: #351 oaktree

So, is this good or bad for Cain?
- Keeps the financing thing on page 6
- Keeps his name in the news (any publicity is good publicity)
- Assuming this turns into a circus it's going to allow him to continue claiming victim status
- Keeps focus away from actual policy discussion

If Gloria Allred is involved, it will help Cain in the short term because she's abrasive and obnoxious and will play right into the "feminazi out to make a buck" talking points that exist on the right.

That said, it also hurts both Cain and the GOP in the long term. If this circus leads to sympathy and votes for Cain, and he ends up the nominee because of it, the GOP will find themselves in serious trouble during the general election.

360 iossarian  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 8:12:35am

re: #351 oaktree

So, is this good or bad for Cain?
- Keeps the financing thing on page 6
- Keeps his name in the news (any publicity is good publicity)
- Assuming this turns into a circus it's going to allow him to continue claiming victim status
- Keeps focus away from actual policy discussion

Ladies and gentlemen - your 2012 GOP candidates! Reaping the positive benefits of sexual harassment allegations.

361 Gus  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 8:14:32am

re: #359 Lidane

If Gloria Allred is involved, it will help Cain in the short term because she's abrasive and obnoxious and will play right into the "feminazi out to make a buck" talking points that exist on the right.

That said, it also hurts both Cain and the GOP in the long term. If this circus leads to sympathy and votes for Cain, and he ends up the nominee because of it, the GOP will find themselves in serious trouble during the general election.

That's it in a nutshell. Knock on wood though regarding Cain -- I'm considering the fickleness of American here. But pointing out the media circus this will create is important because that's what's going to happen now. When Allred gets involved it becomes "all about Allred". It will lead to a lot of quizzical looks from people as in "WTF is she talking about" while her "client" is crying a river of tears on the sideline. No doubt this will also mean another $500,000 book deal for Allred in the near future.

362 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 8:18:08am

re: #359 Lidane

Yep, hope Cain wins it.

364 Gus  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 8:21:16am

Herman Cain is doing the Snoopy Dance as we speak.

//

365 iceweasel  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 8:23:52am

re: #364 Gus 802

Herman Cain is doing the Snoopy Dance as we speak.

//

I love the Snoopy Dance and now you've ruined it for me. Ruined, I say, ruined!

366 Eventual Carrion  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 8:24:19am

re: #121 EdDantes

Can we settle on " opportunistic with no core beliefs that cannot change as circumstances dictate?" Is their a Greek word for that?

Caveat emptor?

367 makeitstop  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 8:26:14am

It looks as though John Kasich is about to get his ass kicked on his anti-union bill. Good times.

368 Feline Fearless Leader  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 8:31:42am

re: #365 iceweasel

I love the Snoopy Dance and now you've ruined it for me. Ruined, I say, ruined!

Doesn't he kiss Lucy while doing it? And does that imply that someone is going to be kissed by Cain?
//

369 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 8:31:49am

Hey, Gus.

Image: 811.png

370 Gus  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 8:32:04am

Test

371 Winny Spencer  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 8:32:36am

"Ron Paul has been consistently correct about the need to audit the Federal Reserve, to limit it, and to return to a policy of a dollar as sound as gold so if you save a dollar, 20 years later it’s still worth a dollar, and it’s great to have him as a candidate.” - Newt Gingrich

372 Gus  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 8:33:31am

re: #369 Sergey Romanov

Hey, Gus.

Image: 811.png

I love that toon. Saw it last week. :)

373 Obdicut  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 8:34:11am

re: #371 Winny Spencer

Hee hee.

Ah, Newt. You never get old.

Oh, and the Fed gets audited every year.

374 Feline Fearless Leader  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 8:34:20am

re: #371 Winny Spencer

"Ron Paul has been consistently correct about the need to audit the Federal Reserve, to limit it, and to return to a policy of a dollar as sound as gold so if you save a dollar, 20 years later it’s still worth a dollar, and it’s great to have him as a candidate.” - Newt Gingrich

I knew I should have invested in bamboo futures six months ago.

:(

375 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 8:34:20am

re: #372 Gus 802

Prolly saw this one too then :)

Image: 809.png

376 Targetpractice  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 8:34:54am

re: #371 Winny Spencer

"Ron Paul has been consistently correct about the need to audit the Federal Reserve, to limit it, and to return to a policy of a dollar as sound as gold so if you save a dollar, 20 years later it’s still worth a dollar, and it’s great to have him as a candidate.” - Newt Gingrich

Newt, why are you kissing Crazy Uncle Ron's ass? He's got no chance of winning the nomination and sure as hell wouldn't make you his VP if he did.

377 Gus  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 8:35:23am

re: #375 Sergey Romanov

Prolly saw this one too then :)

Image: 809.png

Indeed I have. :)

378 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 8:35:34am

re: #371 Winny Spencer

"Ron Paul has been consistently correct about the need to audit the Federal Reserve, to limit it, and to return to a policy of a dollar as sound as gold so if you save a dollar, 20 years later it’s still worth a dollar, and it’s great to have him as a candidate.” - Newt Gingrich

Newt, you got a little something on your nose there. Also, there's nothing inside your head.

379 iceweasel  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 8:38:04am

re: #378 thedopefishlives

Newt, you got a little something on your nose there. Also, there's nothing inside your head.

Ha! I lol'd, literally.

380 Feline Fearless Leader  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 8:38:14am

re: #378 thedopefishlives

Newt, you got a little something on your nose there. Also, there's nothing inside your head.

You mean beyond a patriotic lust for sexual intercourse?

381 iossarian  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 8:39:51am

re: #380 oaktree

You mean beyond a patriotic lust for sexual intercourse?

Honey, this is important. It's for America.

382 Lidane  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 8:40:07am

Ah, the gold standard. Economic illiteracy at its finest.

Trust Newt to keep flogging that horse in a desperate bid for attention.

383 Sol Berdinowitz  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 8:40:55am

re: #382 Lidane

Ah, the gold standard. Economic illiteracy at its finest.

Trust Newt to keep flogging that horse in a desperate bid for attention.

How about free silver, Newt?

384 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 8:43:01am

re: #379 iceweasel

Ha! I lol'd, literally.

I aim to please. Morning, {ice}.

re: #380 oaktree

You mean beyond a patriotic lust for sexual intercourse?

Yeah, that's not in his head.
/Well, not the one on top of his neck, anyway

385 Lidane  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 8:44:15am

re: #383 ralphieboy

How about free silver, Newt?

Up next: Newt introduces a policy to get rid of paper money and require all transactions to be in gold and silver coins. He's from Georgia, after all.

386 Lidane  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 8:47:27am

Cue the wingnut head explosions:

Google, Microsoft, Starbucks Say DOMA Hurts Business

Top U.S. companies including Google, Microsoft, and Starbucks took the unusual step on Thursday of legally documenting their opposition to the Defense of Marriage Act.

A brief filed in court comes from 70 businesses and organizations that want their voice heard on the constitutionality of DOMA, which bans same-sex marriage from being recognized federally and stops couples married in states such as Massachusetts from having their weddings recognized in less accepting places such as Alabama.

The companies paint the law as an overburdening government regulation that should be repealed.

Their brief points out that the Republican leadership in the House of Representatives is defending DOMA in court on the notion that it imposes "a uniform rule" on whose marriage is recognized. "The perspective of the American employer who must implement DOMA is very different," the companies state. "Employers are obliged to treat one employee spouse differently from another, when each is married, and each marriage is equally lawful."

The companies say DOMA "forces" them "to investigate the gender of the spouses of our lawfully married employees and then to single out those employees with a same-sex spouse." For example, HIPPA laws usually consider marriage a "qualifying event" that automatically enrolls a spouse in an employee's health insurance. Companies now spend time and money weeding out any gay employees who get married.

387 sagehen  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 8:48:36am

re: #99 Lidane

Looks like John Kasich's anti-union fail is set to bite him in the ass:

Poll: Ohio Set To Vote Big Against Kasich’s Anti-Union Law

Ohio's a swing state for next year, right? As is Wisconsin? and Florida?

Seems the GOP's crop of 2010 governors are determined to deliver their states to Darth Kenya.

388 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 8:49:29am

re: #387 sagehen

Ohio's a swing state for next year, right? As is Wisconsin? and Florida?

Seems the GOP's crop of 2010 governors are determined to deliver their states to Darth Kenya.

Upding for Darth Kenya. I might have to steal that one.

390 Killgore Trout  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 8:55:14am

"this is what democracy looks like"
Occupy Iowa Caucus: Anonymous Hacker Group Claims Responsibility For Web Video (VIDEO)

"Voting for these parties is unethical," the voice says. "They have destroyed the American democracy."

The clip reveals details of a planned caucus shutdown, beginning two days after Christmas.

"We are calling upon you to occupy the campaign offices of presidential headquarters in Des Moines, Iowa on December 27th, and peacefully shut down the first-in-the-nation Iowa caucuses on January 3," the voice says.

391 Political Atheist  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 8:56:34am

re: #389 Gus 802

A surprisingly low number.

392 lawhawk  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 8:56:46am

If you're in NYC, an interesting optical illusion makes it appear that the Twin Towers were rebuilt. If you look from along 6th Avenue downtown, you see two towers that approximate where the towers once stood, even though one (the Trump SoHo) is more than a mile away from the WTC and 1WTC (Freedom Tower).

393 Gus  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 8:57:43am

re: #391 Rightwingconspirator

A surprisingly low number.

Seems high to me. But it is heartening to see that many Americans are free thinkers rather than being ordinary sheep.

394 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 8:58:25am

re: #393 Gus 802

Seems high to me. But it is heartening to see that many Americans are free thinkers rather than being ordinary sheep.

So just because I think the Iraq war was not a bad idea, that automatically means I'm a sheep?

395 Political Atheist  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 8:58:54am

re: #390 Killgore Trout

Facebook and Fox are still up. The Zetas are still doing what they do so despicably well. I guess they had to lower their sights a little.

LOL

396 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 9:00:16am

re: #394 thedopefishlives

I think the Iraq war was not a bad idea

Why would you think that?

397 lawhawk  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 9:00:30am

re: #389 Gus 802

Yet, if you read through the cross tabs, those numbers are pretty consistent since early 2007. It's remarkably consistent at that. Before 2007, the opposition figure was mid 50 until you get back to 2004 when it was at or below 50% opposition.

The Strong opposition has also been remarkably consistent with someone opposed varying the most.

398 Gus  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 9:00:43am

re: #394 thedopefishlives

So just because I think the Iraq war was not a bad idea, that automatically means I'm a sheep?

You don't seem to understand what I wrote then. I said Americans are not sheep as in the whole of a group dynamic. I wasn't talking about individuals such as yourself. It's about the group.

399 Obdicut  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 9:00:47am

[Link: www.courthousenews.com...]

Federal prosecutors say a former Lincoln County Sheriff's detective sexually abused five women while working as their "drug court tracker," enforcing their curfews.

Drug court trackers "monitor the whereabouts and curfews of drug court participants," according to the 5-count indictment.

Scott Edwards, 49, of Troy, Mo., is accused of violating the civil rights of women in the Lincoln County Drug Court Program between February 2009 and November 2010.

He is accused of aggravated sexual assault of two women, sexual contact with three women, and of restraining and confining victim by force, intimidation and deception.

The federal grand jury accused him of two felony counts of deprivation of rights under color of law including aggravated sexual abuse; one felony count of deprivation of rights under color of law including kidnapping; and two misdemeanor counts of deprivation of rights under color of law including sexual contact.

We should probably shut down the sheriff's office, because sexual abuse occurred there. Cities can't stand idly by while this happens. Clearly, sheriff's departments are just encouragements to sexual abuse.

/

400 Killgore Trout  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 9:01:53am

re: #395 Rightwingconspirator

Facebook and Fox are still up. The Zetas are still doing what they do so despicably well. I guess they had to lower their sights a little.

LOL

It's also debatable if the Israeli websites were taken down by Anon. I don't take much comfort in Anon's failures. Just like other terrorist organizations they only have to get lucky once to make one hell of a mess.

401 lawhawk  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 9:02:10am

re: #397 lawhawk

A question not asked though was whether these folks supported/opposed Afghan operations - and had that dynamic tracked for the same period.

402 Feline Fearless Leader  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 9:03:54am

re: #399 Obdicut

[Link: www.courthousenews.com...]


We should probably shut down the sheriff's office, because sexual abuse occurred there. Cities can't stand idly by while this happens. Clearly, sheriff's departments are just encouragements to sexual abuse.

/

Let's see how far we've gotten...
College sports programs shut down - what the heck, let's close all the universities while we're at it.
Sheriff's offices - we can expand that to law enforcement organizations in general.
Churches and all religious institutions.

I'd say we're made a good step towards establishing anarchy...
/// (massive)

403 Gus  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 9:04:38am

Yawn. Here comes the 101st Chairborne.

404 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 9:06:12am

re: #201 Alouette

One thing that totally bothered me when I was reading the book (I was in 8th grade) was that only 11 children participated in the family adventures. There was a 12th child, Mary, but she is never mentioned in the book as being actively part of the family. Did she die at birth? Was she developmentally disabled and institutionalized? It was never explained. I assumed that she passed away at a young age, but she could have been institutionalized.

IIRC, Mary died young.

405 iossarian  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 9:06:24am

Terrorists, Marxists and Anarchists, oh my.

406 Lidane  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 9:07:40am

Ahahaha....Goodhair just got an endorsement that kills his chances:

Bill Clinton sticks up for Rick Perry on immigration

"It makes my skin crawl when they attack Rick Perry for one of the best things he did," Clinton says, that is, his support of a Texas law that grants in-state college tuition to illegal immigrants brought to the state as children. "What would they like?" Clinton demands. "Would they like the kid to stand on a corner and sell dope or something?"

Perry takes the same view: He says the Texas law creates "taxpaying, contributing members" of society.

407 Gus  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 9:09:46am

Can someone point to me where this so called "anonymous" group is listed as a terrorist organization at the State Department?

408 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 9:10:07am

re: #405 iossarian

Terrorists, Marxists and Anarchists, oh my.

Trotskyites-Zinovievites are next.

409 Obdicut  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 9:10:30am

[Link: www.lvrj.com...]

Cop claims that he was assaulted, turns out he assaulted the guy for videotaping him.

410 Political Atheist  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 9:10:48am

re: #406 Lidane

And so we see further confirmation from both parties the one approach we must not ever take on illegal immigration is consistent serious prosecution of the employers.

411 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 9:11:14am

re: #331 oaktree

And I see that a few administrators are being arraigned for perjury. When you're valuing your football program over the safety of children you deserve the book to be thrown at you castration.

/Did I say that out loud?

412 lawhawk  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 9:12:15am

New problems for Cain - courtesy of the Koch-backed group Prosperity USA.

In a written complaint being filed today, the Center for Media and Democracy -- a Madison, Wisconsin based watchdog group -- charges that leaked financial records show that Block used a non profit group, called Prosperity USA, to improperly pay Cain campaign expenses. If verified, the group says Prosperity USA – which was founded by Cain’s chief of staff Mark Block -- should be stripped of its tax exempt status.

“A charity founded by Mr. Block appears to have fronted tens of thousands of dollars to a political campaign that was led by Mr. Block … This requires an investigation by the IRS into the charity’s activities and expenditures,” said Lisa Graves, the executive director of the Media and Democracy Group in an eleven page letter to IRS Commissioner Douglas Shulman.

The Cain campaign did not immediately respond to a request for comment Monday morning. The campaign’s lawyer last week told NBC News that the Cain campaign takes the allegations “very seriously” and had hired an outside counsel to review the issue ... The Center for Media and Democracy’s letter is the second legal complaint in four days triggered by the publication of Prosperity USA internal financial records by a blogger, Dan Bice, who writes for the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel. The IRS will investigate such complaints, but the probes – which can result in fines and a denial of tax exempt status – can often take years before they are resolved. (On Friday, the Citizens for Ethics and Responsibility filed a complaint alleging election law violations with the Federal Election Commission.)

That's on top of the FEC problems, and the IRS violations are potentially more damaging than the FEC ones.

413 Gus  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 9:12:24am

Russia: Israeli threat of strikes on Iran 'a mistake'

Military action against Iran would be a "very serious mistake fraught with unpredictable consequences", Russia's foreign minister has warned.

Sergei Lavrov said diplomacy, not missile strikes, was the only way to solve the Iranian nuclear problem.

His comments come after Israeli President Shimon Peres said an attack on Iran was becoming more likely.

414 recusancy  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 9:13:13am

re: #407 Gus 802

Can someone point to me where this so called "anonymous" group is listed as a terrorist organization at the State Department?

It's listed under the All Trouble Makers Are Terrorists Clause.

Also, too, HIPPIES!

415 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 9:13:59am

re: #356 Lidane

Maine Gov: Let’s Drug Test Welfare Recipients

I wish someone would explain this malarkey to me. How does it solve anything to randomly drug test people on welfare? Isn't that just a colossal waste of government resources? Besides, it's been struck down as unconstitutional before. What's the point?

The idea is that you can identify the undeserving poor through a pee test, and refuse to give them any more money.

The problem is that, IIRC, when they've done it, it turns out that only a tiny percentage of people on welfare are also on illegal drugs. So they spend more on the tests than they save kicking people off the rolls, and they piss off all the welfare recipients who had to go through this humiliating crap to get a check to tide them over hard times.

416 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 9:14:03am

re: #409 Obdicut

[Link: www.lvrj.com...]

Cop claims that he was assaulted, turns out he assaulted the guy for videotaping him.

Feh. The Anon obviously faked the video in Maya. Cops don't lie.

417 Obdicut  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 9:14:11am

re: #411 SanFranciscoZionist

This is one of the reasons I'm open about having been abused as a child. I know it probably makes people uncomfortable for me to talk about it, but that discomfort, that desire to look away and to not confront the horrific possibility, is one of the things that allows this abuse to continue.

The true rate of abuse of children is not known, but it is depressingly high. We are not going to run out of asshole pedophiles any time soon. And pedophiles often get away with it even though there is plenty of suspicion.

It sucks when people who are innocent get accused, but sadly the contrary is far more common.

418 Lidane  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 9:14:43am

re: #407 Gus 802

AFAIK, the FBI has issued warrants in the past over some of the DDoS attacks, but I don't think Anon has gained quite enough clout to merit terrorist status yet. Don't hold me to that, though.

419 Killgore Trout  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 9:15:02am

re: #407 Gus 802

Can someone point to me where this so called "anonymous" group is listed as a terrorist organization at the State Department?

'Leaked' FBI document calls Anonymous a national security threat

According to a PDF containing what purports to be a leaked psychological assessment of the leaders of LulzSec and Anonymous by the FBI's Behavioral Science Unit (which also profiles serial killers), Anonymous is not only not a collection of individuals, it's a coherent group that poses a threat to national security.

Neither the FBI nor Dept. of Homeland Security have commented on the "leak," which may be a fake according to the TechHerald, but seems to reflect accurately the thinking behind a series of DHS warning bulletins and crackdowns that have resulted in 75 raids and 16 arrests of Anonymous members just this year.

420 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 9:16:02am

Words are bullets, DDoS attacks are bombs.

421 Feline Fearless Leader  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 9:16:46am

re: #415 SanFranciscoZionist

The idea is that you can identify the undeserving poor through a pee test, and refuse to give them any more money.

The problem is that, IIRC, when they've done it, it turns out that only a tiny percentage of people on welfare are also on illegal drugs. So they spend more on the tests than they save kicking people off the rolls, and they piss off all the welfare recipients who had to go through this humiliating crap to get a check to tide them over hard times.

I'd also be somewhat curious of what the welfare rolls in Maine actually look like broken down by the various demographics. Might not be what folk expect - but it is such an established dog whistle to pick on welfare recipients as undeserving of help.

422 recusancy  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 9:16:55am

re: #419 Killgore Trout

'Leaked' FBI document calls Anonymous a national security threat

You know what else is a national security threat? Global Warming. When's the last time you called the climate a terrorist?

423 Gus  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 9:17:02am

re: #419 Killgore Trout

'Leaked' FBI document calls Anonymous a national security threat

That still doesn't show me where they're classified as a terrorist organization. There really isn't an "anonymous" organization. Any other hacker can do some hacking and claim it under the name of "anonymous."

424 Political Atheist  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 9:17:28am

re: #414 recusancy

Hey since the Patriot act is used for anti terror investigations only about 15% or the time, we are all terrorists now.
///

425 sagehen  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 9:17:39am

re: #296 Alouette

I'm getting tired of the Hollywood trend to make a movie out of every Marvel comic book.

Even if the movie tanks, merchandising will cover the budget.

426 Feline Fearless Leader  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 9:18:03am

re: #422 recusancy

You know what else is a national security threat? Global Warming. When's the last time you called the climate a terrorist?

You can't do that until the climate registers as a corporation and thus becomes an individual.
/ :p

427 Lidane  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 9:18:19am

re: #412 lawhawk

New problems for Cain - courtesy of the Koch-backed group Prosperity USA.

That's on top of the FEC problems, and the IRS violations are potentially more damaging than the FEC ones.

What's hilarious -- or sad, depending on your POV -- is that both the media and the right wing noise machine are almost entirely focused on the sexual harassment scandals while the more damaging issues are flying under the radar.

I wonder if this will only serve to bite Cain and the GOP in the ass later. If Cain gets enough sympathy over the sexual harassment scandals to get votes, but the FEC and IRS violations get ignored, they'd most certainly turn up again in the general election.

428 Gus  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 9:18:22am

re: #424 Rightwingconspirator

Hey since the Patriot act is used for anti terror investigations only about 15% or the time, we are all terrorists now.
///

Don't forget to make sure that the TSA agents are checking all the grannies and 4 years olds before they board the plane.

//

429 iossarian  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 9:18:35am

re: #420 Sergey Romanov

Words are bullets, DDoS attacks are bombs.

430 Killgore Trout  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 9:18:47am

re: #420 Sergey Romanov

Words are bullets, DDoS attacks are bombs.

Attacking financial infrastructure such as banks and stock exchanges is very dangerous. DHS issued a memo last month that Anon is looking into sabotaging power plants and electricity grids.

431 Obdicut  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 9:19:24am

re: #430 Killgore Trout

Heh. No need. Just privatize the energy markets and let Connecticut Light and Power take over, and wait for a storm.

432 Gus  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 9:19:48am
433 Lidane  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 9:20:02am

re: #296 Alouette

I'm getting tired of the Hollywood trend to make a movie out of every Marvel comic book.

That's actually a Marvel trend. They have their own film studio.

434 lawhawk  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 9:20:10am

re: #418 Lidane

The State Department list of terror groups doesn't include "anonymous". So, its actions have not yet merited that distinction as an official terror group.

Doesn't mean it can't or wont be labeled as such in the future.

435 Feline Fearless Leader  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 9:20:27am

re: #427 Lidane

What's hilarious -- or sad, depending on your POV -- is that both the media and the right wing noise machine are almost entirely focused on the sexual harassment scandals while the more damaging issues are flying under the radar.

I wonder if this will only serve to bite Cain and the GOP in the ass later. If Cain gets enough sympathy over the sexual harassment scandals to get votes, but the FEC and IRS violations get ignored, they'd most certainly turn up again in the general election.

Isn't there sufficient precedent that these issues can be lawyered and tied up in enough red tape and delay so that there will be no court decision until after the election? Which leaves the immediate dodge that every thing is "alleged" and "not proven", or "a smear" until it doesn't matter.

436 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 9:20:46am

re: #430 Killgore Trout

DHS issued a memo last month that Anon is looking into sabotaging power plants and electricity grids.

And what is their credible source for this?

437 Political Atheist  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 9:21:01am

re: #428 Gus 802

I might like to see a procedural rule where it takes a super majority to extend a sunset clause...

438 Gus  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 9:21:08am
439 iossarian  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 9:21:58am

re: #430 Killgore Trout

Attacking financial infrastructure such as banks and stock exchanges is very dangerous. DHS issued a memo last month that Anon is looking into sabotaging power plants and electricity grids.

Goldman Sachs has done far more to damage the economy of the US than Anon ever will.

440 Killgore Trout  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 9:22:58am

re: #436 Sergey Romanov

And what is their credible source for this?

DHS: Anonymous Interested in Hacking Nation’s Infrastructure

441 recusancy  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 9:23:00am

re: #439 iossarian

Goldman Sachs has done far more to damage the economy of the US than Anon ever will.

The State Department list of terror groups doesn't include "Goldman Sachs". So, its actions have not yet merited that distinction as an official terror group.

Doesn't mean it can't or wont be labeled as such in the future.

442 Lidane  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 9:23:34am

re: #434 lawhawk

The State Department list of terror groups doesn't include "anonymous". So, its actions have not yet merited that distinction as an official terror group.

Doesn't mean it can't or wont be labeled as such in the future.

Wouldn't they have to start killing people for that to happen?

I can't say I'm a fan of Anon or anything, but they're hackers, not killers. Until they get violent I don't see how they could be labeled terrorists.

443 Political Atheist  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 9:23:41am

re: #432 Gus 802

Terrorist suspect according to the TSA.

Domestic-Pretty broad-ACLU link-

Section 802 does not create a new crime of domestic terrorism. However, it does expand the type of conduct that the government can investigate when it is investigating ""terrorism."" The USA PATRIOT Act expanded governmental powers to investigate terrorism, and some of these powers are applicable to domestic terrorism.

The definition of domestic terrorism is broad enough to encompass the activities of several prominent activist campaigns and organizations. Greenpeace, Operation Rescue, Vieques Island and WTO protesters and the Environmental Liberation Front have all recently engaged in activities that could subject them to being investigated as engaging in domestic terrorism.

444 Gus  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 9:23:44am

New topic. We'll pick up on OWS and anonymous there as soon as it get hijacked for the millionth time. I'll leave the rest of the discussion here for the arm-chair generals that just woke up with another day long hard on.

445 wrenchwench  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 9:28:15am

re: #412 lawhawk

New problems for Cain - courtesy of the Koch-backed group Prosperity USA.

That's on top of the FEC problems, and the IRS violations are potentially more damaging than the FEC ones.

Good for Dan Bice!

The Center for Media and Democracy’s letter is the second legal complaint in four days triggered by the publication of Prosperity USA internal financial records by a blogger, Dan Bice, who writes for the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel.

446 sagehen  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 9:28:58am

re: #388 thedopefishlives

Upding for Darth Kenya. I might have to steal that one.

I stole it myself, from someone who who couldn't remember where he stole it.

447 blueraven  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 9:29:22am

re: #419 Killgore Trout

'Leaked' FBI document calls Anonymous a national security threat

If you follow the links in that article, one of them leads here

[Link: www.thetechherald.com...]

There is an update in which the FBI confirms the "leaked document" in question is a fake.

448 sagehen  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 9:31:45am

re: #392 lawhawk

If you're in NYC, an interesting optical illusion makes it appear that the Twin Towers were rebuilt. If you look from along 6th Avenue downtown, you see two towers that approximate where the towers once stood, even though one (the Trump SoHo) is more than a mile away from the WTC and 1WTC (Freedom Tower).

When it Manhattan-henge (when the sun rises straight down the middle of Avenues and buildings cast no morning shadow)? That's in the fall, right?

449 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 9:33:03am

re: #440 Killgore Trout

DHS: Anonymous Interested in Hacking Nation’s Infrastructure

You could have just linked to the bulletin itself:

[Link: publicintelligence.net...]

If you actually read it you will see that there is no evidence of calls for cyber-attacks on power plants and the grid. They key word to the whole bulletin is "could". I.e.: it's all speculation. Not unnecessary - DHS should look in all potential dangers.

So I stand by my sarcasm.

450 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 9:36:19am

re: #447 blueraven

LOL.

451 Jimmah  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 9:37:12am

Killgore squabbling again....sigh.

452 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 9:43:26am

re: #417 Obdicut

Do you find that when you talk about it, people's discomfort comes out in the form of disbelief, or some form of calling you a liar?

453 Killgore Trout  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 9:45:42am

re: #449 Sergey Romanov

You could have just linked to the bulletin itself:

[Link: publicintelligence.net...]

If you actually read it you will see that there is no evidence of calls for cyber-attacks on power plants and the grid. They key word to the whole bulletin is "could". I.e.: it's all speculation. Not unnecessary - DHS should look in all potential dangers.

So I stand by my sarcasm.

I'm sure Anon's interest in industrial control systems of critical infrastructure will be be used good. We'll all have much lulz when we see what they're up to.
/

454 Political Atheist  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 9:45:53am

re: #451 Jimmah

He posts critical of OWS, some others more positively like I have. I have no problem with that, it keeps us all a bit sharper. And DHS is credible as an agency must get some benefit of the doubt.

455 Obdicut  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 9:47:12am

re: #452 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

Do you find that when you talk about it, people's discomfort comes out in the form of disbelief, or some form of calling you a liar?

Not often, not to my face, anyway. Some people on the internet say "Oh how convenient". Only the real shitheads imply that I'm lying.

456 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 9:47:39am

re: #453 Killgore Trout

I'm sure Anon's interest in industrial control systems of critical infrastructure will be be used good. We'll all have much lulz when we see what they're up to.
/

Sure, sure. Meanwhile be sure to throw the "terrorist" word around as much as possible. A real credibility-booster.

457 Jimmah  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 9:48:12am

re: #454 Rightwingconspirator

He posts critical of OWS, some others more positively like I have. I have no problem with that, it keeps us all a bit sharper. And DHS is credible as an agency must get some benefit of the doubt.

it's on every thread - it's really boring, and off-putting. I fail to see how it serves any purpose to have every thread reduced to dealing with one man's neuroses about hippies.

458 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 9:49:17am

re: #454 Rightwingconspirator

He posts critical of OWS, some others more positively like I have. I have no problem with that, it keeps us all a bit sharper. And DHS is credible as an agency must get some benefit of the doubt.

It's not about credibility of DHS. It's about media hype around its more or less sober report. And since DHS does provide the primary sources in detail in the report, we can judge whether the hype is substantiated or not.

459 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 9:50:45am

bbl

460 blueraven  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 9:51:19am

re: #454 Rightwingconspirator

He posts critical of them, some others more positively like I have. I have no problem with that, it keeps us all a bit sharper. And DHS is credible as an agency must get some benefit of the doubt.

Its not just the critical posts, it is the lack of any due diligence in the information he is posting

See:

re: #447 blueraven

re: #449 Sergey Romanov

461 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 9:51:37am

re: #459 Sergey Romanov

PS: oh, TEH DRAMA.

462 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 9:51:38am

re: #440 Killgore Trout

DHS: Anonymous Interested in Hacking Nation’s Infrastructure

From the article:

The hacker collective known as Anonymous has expressed interest in hacking industrial systems that control critical infrastructures, such as gas and oil pipelines, chemical plants and water and sewage treatment facilities, according to a Department of Homeland Security bulletin.

But DHS doubts the anarchic group has the necessary skills. At least for now.

Anonymous efforts to attack such systems could be thwarted by the lack of centralized leadership in the loosely collected group, the bulletin says, as well as a lack of “specific expertise” about how the systems work and how to attack them. However, the report notes, the latter could easily be overcome through study of publicly available information.

Allow me to add to this report truthfully:

The hacker collective known as Anonymous has expressed interest in having sexual intercourse with a variety of actresses and female pop and porn stars.

But DHS doubts the anarchic group has the necessary skills. At least for now.

Anonymous efforts to approach such females could be thwarted by the lack of centralized leadership in the loosely collected group, the bulletin says, as well as a lack of “specific expertise” about how the females work and how to approach them. However, the report notes, the latter could easily be overcome through study of publicly available information.

463 Jimmah  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 9:52:40am

re: #460 blueraven

Its not just the critical posts, it is the lack of any due diligence in the information he is posting

See:

re: #447 blueraven

re: #449 Sergey Romanov

Yep - let's face it, it's been confirmation bias on steroids from day 1.

464 Jimmah  Mon, Nov 7, 2011 9:54:34am

re: #459 Sergey Romanov

bbl

Me too.

PS: Oh teh pizza (ice-ski is dishimng out a nice home made pepperoni as we speak :)


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Lianne La Havas - Tokyo (Official Video) Directed + Shot /// Ravi DharEditor /// Robert Deichmann + Ravi DharColorist /// J.L. @ AutonomousProjection VFX /// Mike DillingerDIT /// Gianennio SalucciProduction Assistant /// Mio SekiguchiShot in Tokyo, Japan 'Blood' is Out Now. Download from iTunes here: po.st ...
Thanos
6 days, 4 hours ago
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A US Back Road Is Route to Hope in Canada for Many Migrants Where the pavement stops, they pick up small children and lead older ones wearing Mickey Mouse backpacks around a "road closed" sign, threading bushes, crossing a ditch, and filing past another sign in French and English that says "No ...
Thanos
1 week ago
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A New Way to Reproduce - MIT Technology Review Let’s call him B.D., because that’s what his wife does on her infertility blog, Shooting Blanks. Several years ago, the 36-year-old learned he was azoospermatic. It means his body makes no sperm at all. During a recent phone interview, ...
Birth Control Works
1 week ago
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