The Last Of The Navajo Code Talkers

In Navajo, there is no word for bomb. So they called it an egg.
LGF • Views: 29,877

Only one veteran Navajo code talker remains of the original 29 Navajo Marines who used their native language to devise an unbreakable code during World War II.

Growing up in New Mexico, Chester Nez and many of his fellow Navajo were punished for speaking their language. In the 1920s, Nez attended one of many government run boarding schools that attempted to erase Indian culture and language.

“I often think about the things I went through, all the hardships,” Nez said. He was being interviewed at the studios of KUNM in Albuquerque for Veterans Day.

Years later, Nez was shocked to learn he’d been recruited by the Marines, specifically to devise a code using the same language the government tried to beat out of him. Judith Avila helped Nez write his memoir Code Talker, which was just published.

“It was extremely ironic one of the very things they were forbidden to do - speak Navajo - ended up helping save us during the war,” Avila said.

[…]

Above, you can hear Chester Nez, and listen to the rest of this story. If you listen to the audio, you will also hear “My Country, ‘Tis of Thee” sung in Navajo. At this link, you can read the rest of the story instead of listening to it, and you can watch the Congressional Gold Medal Ceremony of July 26, 2001 in which five of the original Navajo code talkers, including Chester Nez, were honored for their service during World War II. At the top is a short slide show with photos of Chester Nez, then and now.

Monument to Navajo code talkers in Window Rock, AZ, from Wikipedia

Navajo Veterans’ Memorial and cemetary, a photo I took in Window Rock in 2007

Jump to bottom

881 comments
1 Charles Johnson  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 5:59:59pm

What an awesome story. Gotta promote this one - but I'll leave it here for a little while in case you want to make any changes.

2 Charles Johnson  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 6:05:50pm

I just added the MP3 audio ...

3 wrenchwench  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 6:07:06pm

re: #1 Charles

What an awesome story. Gotta promote this one - but I'll leave it here for a little while in case you want to make any changes.

Now I have stage fright. Thanks for adding the MP3. We can't "borrow" the slideshow, can we?

4 Charles Johnson  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 6:16:26pm

re: #3 wrenchwench

Now I have stage fright. Thanks for adding the MP3. We can't "borrow" the slideshow, can we?

Actually, yes - the Flickr slideshow allowed me to embed it...

5 FreedomMoon  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 6:20:37pm

I never understood this. We fucked over their people, well all the indigenous American people, but then after that was the US Gov't not satisfied? What did they want to achieve in stripping them of their heritage, language and culture? Did they think that would hasten their introduction into society, raise their standard of living? Or was it just a game to not only conquer them geographically but mentally and spiritually was well?

Either was, it's a touching story of forgiveness, that these patriots and heroes put aside all their rightful indignation and anger to serve a country that had no intention of accepting them--just taking advantage of a unique and singular ability that ironically had been detested and opposed the very moment white men first set foot on the east coast.

6 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 6:32:07pm

re: #5 tacuba14

I never understood this. We fucked over their people, well all the indigenous American people, but then after that was the US Gov't not satisfied? What did they want to achieve in stripping them of their heritage, language and culture? Did they think that would hasten their introduction into society, raise their standard of living? Or was it just a game to not only conquer them geographically but mentally and spiritually was well?

Either was, it's a touching story of forgiveness, that these patriots and heroes put aside all their rightful indignation and anger to serve a country that had no intention of accepting them--just taking advantage of a unique and singular ability that ironically had been detested and opposed the very moment white men first set foot on the east coast.

Yes actually, stripping away the culture and having them assimilate was supposed to help. I don't think they understood that breaking up the nuclear family is a bad idea (if the family isn't toxic).

7 albusteve  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 6:33:56pm

read this in the ABQ Journal today...great story about a nearly lost bit of history

8 PhillyPretzel  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 6:34:28pm

Back in 2002 PBS had a special on the Navajo Code Talkers. I am going to the PBS Shows online to try to find it.

9 albusteve  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 6:36:30pm

and thank you wrenchwench for putting it up

10 Dancing along the light of day  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 6:40:31pm

And they were all so proud of their service to their country, which had not treated their people very well. A wonderful post for Veterans Day.

11 dragonfire1981  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 6:43:12pm

I first found out about the talkers from an episode of the X-files when one of them helps Mulder. I have been fascinated with them ever since.

12 CuriousLurker  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 6:43:24pm

Awesome Page!

13 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 6:44:31pm

re: #3 wrenchwench

Now I have stage fright. Thanks for adding the MP3. We can't "borrow" the slideshow, can we?

It's great.

14 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 6:44:43pm

re: #11 dragonfire1981

I first found out about the talkers from an episode of the X-files when one of them helps Mulder. I have been fascinated with them ever since.

The American public schools system has major holes. This story is fascinating, and kids would remember it. Instead, they are memorizing dates for a test that they won't remember in a year.

15 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 6:46:52pm

wha?

thinkprogress ThinkProgress
Suspect in machine gun fire near White House jumped out of car at 23rd and Constitution. Car has Idaho plates. (via @jackiebensen)

16 albusteve  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 6:47:09pm

re: #14 EmmmieG

The American public schools system has major holes. This story is fascinating, and kids would remember it. Instead, they are memorizing dates for a test that they won't remember in a year.

our kids are idiots hanging out at Wall Street
(not mine tho)

17 b_sharp  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 6:47:17pm

re: #6 EmmmieG

Yes actually, stripping away the culture and having them assimilate was supposed to help. I don't think they understood that breaking up the nuclear family is a bad idea (if the family isn't toxic).

It was an attempt to destroy what was considered a savage non-christian culture. As far as not understanding the results, they not only understood they relied on it. They wanted the kids to go back culturally and emotionally divorced from their parents. Alcoholism was already ingrained in their culture by their interaction with traders.

FAS, physical and sexual abuse, and disruption of family ties almost destroyed first nations bands in Canada.

18 PhillyPretzel  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 6:47:26pm

I found some interesting items on You Tube about the Navajo Code Talkers. [Link: www.youtube.com...]

19 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 6:49:53pm

re: #17 b_sharp

It was an attempt to destroy what was considered a savage non-christian culture. As far as not understanding the results, they not only understood they relied on it. They wanted the kids to go back culturally and emotionally divorced from their parents. Alcoholism was already ingrained in their culture by their interaction with traders.

FAS, physical and sexual abuse, and disruption of family ties almost destroyed first nations bands in Canada.

Do not forget that alcoholism is strongly genetic. It runs in my family, and I have a frank talk with my kids when they are twelve, with reminders frequently thereafter.

20 jaunte  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 6:50:14pm

Some more code-talker tidbits:

The Japanese, who were skilled code breakers, remained baffled by the Navajo language. The Japanese chief of intelligence, Lieutenant General Seizo Arisue, said that while they were able to decipher the codes used by the U.S. Army and Army Air Corps, they never cracked the code used by the Marines. The Navajo code talkers even stymied a Navajo soldier taken prisoner at Bataan. (About 20 Navajos served in the U.S. Army in the Philippines.) The Navajo soldier, forced to listen to the jumbled words of talker transmissions, said to a code talker after the war, "I never figured out what you guys who got me into all that trouble were saying."
...
When a Navajo code talker received a message, what he heard was a string of seemingly unrelated Navajo words. The code talker first had to translate each Navajo word into its English equivalent. Then he used only the first letter of the English equivalent in spelling an English word. Thus, the Navajo words "wol-la-chee" (ant), "be-la-sana" (apple) and "tse-nill" (axe) all stood for the letter "a." One way to say the word "Navy" in Navajo code would be "tsah (needle) wol-la-chee (ant) ah-keh-di- glini (victor) tsah-ah-dzoh (yucca)."

Most letters had more than one Navajo word representing them. Not all words had to be spelled out letter by letter. The developers of the original code assigned Navajo words to represent about 450 frequently used military terms that did not exist in the Navajo language. Several examples: "besh- lo" (iron fish) meant "submarine," "dah-he- tih-hi" (hummingbird) meant "fighter plane" and "debeh-li-zine" (black street) meant "squad."

[Link: www.history.navy.mil...]

21 reine.de.tout  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 6:52:15pm

Cajun French speakers in Louisiana underwent a similar experience, to have the French "beaten out" of their system. The language is now dying out.

Such a shame to lose Native languages, and other languages that were used in communities through our history. These things were priceless.

22 PhillyPretzel  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 6:55:44pm

re: #21 reine.de.tout
It is very similar to the speakers of Yiddish. My dad still remembers most of what he was taught many years ago by his mother and father.

23 albusteve  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 6:57:00pm

since we Christian Americans steamrolled the Native Americans into submission by death, terror and disease...stuck them on reservations that are not all that dissimilar too a fucking zoo, we can at least deliver quality heath care and education potential to them via the whites that drove them into submission....NAs deserve as much attention as a fucking panda

24 Charles Johnson  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 6:57:02pm

Breaking - shots fired from an AK47 near the White House...

25 b_sharp  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 6:59:14pm

re: #19 EmmmieG

Do not forget that alcoholism is strongly genetic. It runs in my family, and I have a frank talk with my kids when they are twelve, with reminders frequently thereafter.

As far as I've seen, there is no evidence alcoholism itself is genetic, however there looks to be a gene that seems to affect how alcohol affects brain chemistry. Alcoholism is strongly cultural, frequently used as an accepted method of dealing with stress.

26 reine.de.tout  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 7:00:48pm

re: #23 albusteve

since we Christian Americans steamrolled the Native Americans into submission by death, terror and disease...stuck them on reservations that are not all that dissimilar too a fucking zoo, we can at least deliver quality heath care and education potential to them via the whites that drove them into submission...NAs deserve as much attention as a fucking panda

Hey, STeve, check your email.
pretty please.

27 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 7:03:09pm

re: #25 b_sharp

As far as I've seen, there is no evidence alcoholism itself is genetic, however there looks to be a gene that seems to affect how alcohol affects brain chemistry. Alcoholism is strongly cultural, frequently used as an accepted method of dealing with stress.

In my family, my great-great-grandfather was an alcoholic. Two of his grandchildren were lifetime alcoholics. Two of my siblings were drug addicts.

We have the talk.

28 Targetpractice  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 7:04:33pm

re: #24 Charles

Breaking - shots fired from an AK47 near the White House...

Eh?

29 jaunte  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 7:04:37pm

Here's a little good news:
Wilson Ramos rescued, safe in Venezuela

30 Killgore Trout  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 7:09:26pm

The betting pool begins. What genre of idiot are we dealing with?
I'll go ahead and start with psychotic mental patient.

31 b_sharp  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 7:09:40pm

re: #27 EmmmieG

In my family, my great-great-grandfather was an alcoholic. Two of his grandchildren were lifetime alcoholics. Two of my siblings were drug addicts.

We have the talk.

The talk is necessary, and even if alcoholism isn't genetic, depression, anxiety, and other conditions that could lead to alcoholism certainly look to be.

Complete disclosure:
My brother was an alcoholic, my son is an alcoholic and most of my wife's siblings were/are alcoholics or drug addicts.

32 jaunte  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 7:10:34pm

Killgore in for one Travis Bickle.

33 ProGunLiberal  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 7:11:35pm

re: #30 Killgore Trout

I'll go with Tea Partier.

Unrelated to that, but related to Pakistan issue. Is there a nuke simulator that is somewhat accurate?

34 BishopX  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 7:11:53pm

re: #30 Killgore Trout

I'm going to vote unrelated violence. Some reports are now saying shooting was between two vehicles...

35 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 7:13:05pm

re: #31 b_sharp

The talk is necessary, and even if alcoholism isn't genetic, depression, anxiety, and other conditions that could lead to alcoholism certainly look to be.

Complete disclosure:
My brother was an alcoholic, my son is an alcoholic and most of my wife's siblings were/are alcoholics or drug addicts.

Recovering alcoholic. There are no former alcoholics.

Yeah, my family gets to roll a lovely set of genetic dice. On the other, hand there are some good things, too.

36 Decatur Deb  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 7:13:45pm

re: #33 ProLifeLiberal

I'll go with Tea Partier.

Unrelated to that, but related to Pakistan issue. Is there a nuke simulator that is somewhat accurate?

Would you like to play a game?

[Link: meyerweb.com...]

37 BishopX  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 7:15:02pm

re: #34 BishopX

@Thinkprogress

MT @SegravesWTOP: Park police say shots fired between two cars at 16th and Constitution NW. Roads closed in area.

38 b_sharp  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 7:15:25pm

re: #35 EmmmieG

Recovering alcoholic. There are no former alcoholics.

Yeah, my family gets to roll a lovely set of genetic dice. On the other, hand there are some good things, too.

My brother is dead, that's why I said he used to be an alcoholic. He killed himself in a snowmobile accident in 2001.

39 ProGunLiberal  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 7:15:44pm

re: #36 Decatur Deb

I'm going to assume the Taliban and other yutzballs haven't changed much in ideology in the past decade. They would, barring Bagram Base, target Shia Centers. Most likely Iran.

40 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 7:17:37pm

re: #38 b_sharp

My brother is dead, that's why I said he used to be an alcoholic. He killed himself in a snowmobile accident in 2001.

I am very sorry to hear that.

41 Killgore Trout  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 7:17:47pm

re: #33 ProLifeLiberal

I'll go with Tea Partier.

The choice of firearm is wrong for a Tea Partier. No self respecting wingnut is going to use an Ak4, they're AR15 folks. I'd put Occupy DC "Peace activist" ahead of wingnut Tea Partier ahead on this one.

42 ProGunLiberal  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 7:18:53pm

re: #41 Killgore Trout

You do realize how much these clowns love Putin right? I can see them reversing course because of that.

43 windsagio  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 7:19:44pm
44 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 7:21:56pm

Gossip central. The Dr. Murray documentary on MSNBC. The one the family freaked out about and couldn't stop.

Ewe

The photos of Michael's house/rooms = pigsty.

45 Targetpractice  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 7:22:03pm

Gang warfare, perhaps?

46 b_sharp  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 7:22:22pm

re: #40 EmmmieG

I am very sorry to hear that.

It's OK. On top of being an alcoholic, he was an adrenalin junkie. He pulled a turn at 60mph and hit a cut off telephone post.

47 jaunte  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 7:23:10pm

AK-47s are getting more common:

Since 1993, the year before the [federal assault weapons] ban took affect, ATF has recorded a more than sevenfold increase in 7.62x39mm guns -- which includes the original Russian-made AK-47 and a variety of copycats from around the world. The number of AK-type guns rose from 1,140 in 1993 to 8,547 last year. (2007)
[Link: www.usatoday.com...]

48 Decatur Deb  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 7:23:37pm

DC Fox affiliate video puts it on/near 16th st bridge.

49 ProGunLiberal  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 7:23:53pm

re: #45 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

In front of President's Park? Call me skeptical. This is in the middle of Mall. Between Washington Monument and the White House.

50 BishopX  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 7:25:48pm

re: #39 ProLifeLiberal

I'm going to assume the Taliban and other yutzballs haven't changed much in ideology in the past decade. They would, barring Bagram Base, target Shia Centers. Most likely Iran.

I doubt they would target Iran for three reasons. The first is that Iran is supplying weapons to insurgents in Afghanistan, so the enemy of their enemy is their friend. The second is that on the global scale the taliban hates shia a lot less than they hate Russia or the west. The third reason is practical, Iran is due west of Afghanistan. Any fallout from a nuclear detonation in Iran will be carried east into Afghanistan.

In terms of targets for nuclear weapon from the Talibans point of view I would guess the target priority list would look something like this:

-Anywhere in America
-Tel Aviv
-Any remaining European nations still in Afghanistan
-Russia (Moscow?)

51 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 7:26:26pm

re: #46 b_sharp

It's OK. On top of being an alcoholic, he was an adrenalin junkie. He pulled a turn at 60mph and hit a cut off telephone post.

Not a coincidence. My recovering drug addict brother has now bought a motorcycle. He's a risk taker, and it's a personality trait with more than one facet.

On the other hand, I will soon find that baby picture of him naked on a sheepskin (5 months old) and post in on Facebook.

Older Sisters. Making your life miserable since the beginning of time. It's our job.

52 BishopX  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 7:28:12pm

The white house schedule says that Obama was slated to leave San Diego at 9:50 ET.

53 ProGunLiberal  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 7:30:17pm

re: #50 BishopX

US, Israel, and India are all properly paranoid about loose nukes. Britain seems to be as well.

Who does that leave as a target, aside from Russia?

I'm basing my idea off of what happened in Mazar i-Sharif in 1999.

54 PhillyPretzel  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 7:32:08pm

Good Night to my fellow Lizards.

55 MittDoesNotCompute  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 7:32:13pm

re: #41 Killgore Trout

The choice of firearm is wrong for a Tea Partier. No self respecting wingnut is going to use an Ak4, they're AR15 folks. I'd put Occupy DC "Peace activist" ahead of wingnut Tea Partier ahead on this one.

I think you might be being sarcastic, but any gun enthusiast worth their salt (even the TPer nuts) drools for AK-pattern rifles (AKs, SKSs, etc.). They're simple to use, tough-as-nails, plentiful worldwide, and powerful...hell, if I had the means and the inclination, I'd get one and I'm far from being an "peace activist", as you put it.

56 BishopX  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 7:34:06pm

re: #53 ProLifeLiberal

What happened in Mazar i-sharif in 1999?

57 Killgore Trout  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 7:35:38pm

re: #55 talon_262

I know you might be being sarcastic, but any gun enthusiast worth their salt (even the TPer nuts) drools for AK-pattern rifles (AKs, SKSs, etc.). They're simple to use, tough-as-nails, and powerful...hell, if I had the means and the inclination, I'd get one and I'm far from being an "OWS type".

Looks like it might have been a squabble between gang bangers.

58 ProGunLiberal  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 7:36:49pm

re: #56 BishopX

Taliban went in and slaughtered thousands of Shia, and put many more in shipping containers, where they died of various causes.

Among the killed were Iranian Diplomats. Iran called up a quarter million troops to the border, before someone got them to cool off.

Considering the fact Khatami was President of Iran at the time, not allowing Iran to invade may have been a bad thing.

59 jaunte  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 7:43:24pm

Terry Moran
From DHS, via @JasonRyanABC: NO shots fired at the White House, local crime issue, happened at 16th + Constitution, 1/4 mile from fence.

60 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 7:44:46pm

re: #21 reine.de.tout

Cajun French speakers in Louisiana underwent a similar experience, to have the French "beaten out" of their system. The language is now dying out.

Such a shame to lose Native languages, and other languages that were used in communities through our history. These things were priceless.

Yiddish first had most of its native speakers murdered, and then the language was consciously put aside in favor of either English or modern Hebrew. Ladino and Judeo-Arabic suffered similarly. People are trying to revive all of it, but I don't think most folks understand what we lost.

61 ProGunLiberal  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 7:45:31pm

re: #59 jaunte

They need police D.C. better.

I was wrong in my assumption about perpatrator. I'm rather twitchy when it comes to the Tea Party.

62 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 7:46:22pm

re: #24 Charles

Breaking - shots fired from an AK47 near the White House...

Oh hell.

63 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 7:46:58pm

re: #27 EmmmieG

In my family, my great-great-grandfather was an alcoholic. Two of his grandchildren were lifetime alcoholics. Two of my siblings were drug addicts.

We have the talk.

I'll be having the talk as well, I imagine. Le sigh.

64 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 7:48:06pm

TerryMoran Terry Moran
From DHS, via @JasonRyanABC: NO shots fired at the White House, local crime issue, happened at 16th + Constitution, 1/4 mile from fence.

65 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 7:48:44pm

re: #30 Killgore Trout

The betting pool begins. What genre of idiot are we dealing with?
I'll go ahead and start with psychotic mental patient.

Idaho plates, someone said above. Could be militia types if that is accurate.

Which doesn't rule out psychotic.

66 jaunte  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 7:49:29pm

re: #65 SanFranciscoZionist

There may be a tourist in DC from Idaho wondering what happened to their car tomorrow morning.

67 ProGunLiberal  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 7:50:34pm

re: #66 jaunte

"Oh, so THAT'S where my car went!"

68 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 7:50:47pm

re: #41 Killgore Trout

The choice of firearm is wrong for a Tea Partier. No self respecting wingnut is going to use an Ak4, they're AR15 folks. I'd put Occupy DC "Peace activist" ahead of wingnut Tea Partier ahead on this one.

Nah. If a Wells Fargo branch had been bombed, maybe.

69 jaunte  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 7:52:00pm

Heh.

A reviewer for the official National Park Service bookstore at Ford’s Theatre has recommended that Bill O’Reilly’s bestselling new book about the Lincoln assassination not be sold at the historic site “because of the lack of documentation and the factual errors within the publication.”
[Link: www.salon.com...]

70 Atlas Fails  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 7:52:13pm

re: #41 Killgore Trout

The choice of firearm is wrong for a Tea Partier. No self respecting wingnut is going to use an Ak4, they're AR15 folks. I'd put Occupy DC "Peace activist" ahead of wingnut Tea Partier ahead on this one.

You're one of my favorite commenters, but this Occupy obsession's getting a little weird.

71 Charles Johnson  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 7:52:20pm

Latest word on Twitter is that it's a local crime issue, not related to the White House. Apparently the scene is about 600 yards away. Not very close.

72 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 7:54:46pm

re: #68 SanFranciscoZionist

Nah. If a Wells Fargo branch had been bombed, maybe.

Except that Occupy Oakland is now keeping their money at Wells Fargo...

73 freetoken  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 7:54:55pm

re: #71 Charles

Drug deal?

74 austin_blue  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 7:56:35pm

re: #23 albusteve

since we Christian Americans steamrolled the Native Americans into submission by death, terror and disease...stuck them on reservations that are not all that dissimilar too a fucking zoo, we can at least deliver quality heath care and education potential to them via the whites that drove them into submission...NAs deserve as much attention as a fucking panda

Apologist!

75 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 7:57:18pm

re: #5 tacuba14

I never understood this. We fucked over their people, well all the indigenous American people, but then after that was the US Gov't not satisfied? What did they want to achieve in stripping them of their heritage, language and culture? Did they think that would hasten their introduction into society, raise their standard of living? Or was it just a game to not only conquer them geographically but mentally and spiritually was well?

"The white man forbade the black to enter his own social and economic system and at the same time force-fed the Indian what he was denying the black."
--Vine Deloria, "The Red and the Black", Custer Died for Your Sins

76 Talking Point Detective  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 7:57:34pm

Navajo code talkers:

[Link: www.npr.org...]

Thought I'd throw this in:

For generations, Native Americans have had the highest rate of military service of any ethnic group in the country. In a small town on a Navajo Reservation in Arizona, one man found a unique place to honor the Navajo code-talkers of World War II.

[Link: tv.azpm.org...]

[Link: www.hulu.com...]


And while I'm at it - an absolutely amazing interview about Margaret Sanger, Planned Parenthood, and eugenics.

[Link: www.npr.org...]

One of the amazing factoids from the interview: Barry Freakin' Goldwater (and wife) was a major Planned Parenthood supporter. The history of politics around abortion and birth control is absolutely insane.

77 Talking Point Detective  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 7:57:56pm

re: #71 Charles

Latest word on Twitter is that it's a local crime issue, not related to the White House. Apparently the scene is about 600 yards away. Not very close.

Is there any way to blame it on OWS?

78 austin_blue  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 7:58:52pm

re: #71 Charles

Latest word on Twitter is that it's a local crime issue, not related to the White House. Apparently the scene is about 600 yards away. Not very close.

Not only that, but the Prez is in Nofuck tonight.

79 Dancing along the light of day  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 8:02:04pm

re: #78 austin_blue

San Diego, for the basketball game, actually.

80 austin_blue  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 8:02:14pm

re: #76 Talking Point Detective

Navajo code talkers:

[Link: www.npr.org...]

Thought I'd throw this in:

[Link: tv.azpm.org...]

[Link: www.hulu.com...]

And while I'm at it - an absolutely amazing interview about Margaret Sanger, Planned Parenthood, and eugenics.

[Link: www.npr.org...]

One of the amazing factoids from the interview: Barry Freakin' Goldwater (and wife) was a major Planned Parenthood supporter. The history of politics around abortion and birth control is absolutely insane.

Only after Roe v Wade. George HW Bush's mom was a *huge* supporter up in Connecticut. Originally, it was a very Republican cause, because the Papists didn't like it at all.

81 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 8:03:04pm

re: #78 austin_blue

Not only that, but the Prez is in Nofuck tonight.

my house is NoFuck? well, he's 30 mi away.

82 freetoken  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 8:03:26pm

re: #79 Floral Giraffe

San Diego, for the basketball game, actually.

There's basketball in this town?

83 Talking Point Detective  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 8:04:03pm

re: #80 austin_blue

Only after Roe v Wade.

??

Not sure what you're referencing there.

84 austin_blue  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 8:04:04pm

re: #79 Floral Giraffe

San Diego, for the basketball game, actually.

Oops! Good call. I thought the Vinson was out of Nofuck. Much nicer weather in SD.

85 Dancing along the light of day  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 8:04:10pm

re: #81 Stanley Sea

Maybe next year, you can get an invite? That'd be awesome!
*waves*

86 Dancing along the light of day  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 8:04:50pm

re: #82 freetoken

There's basketball in this town?

And on an aircraft carrier, no less.
WOOT!

87 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 8:05:02pm

re: #85 Floral Giraffe

Maybe next year, you can get an invite? That'd be awesome!
*waves*

Hey Flo!!!!! I was so close, but so far.

88 albusteve  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 8:05:29pm

re: #77 Talking Point Detective

Is there any way to blame it on OWS?

ripple effect

89 austin_blue  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 8:06:59pm

re: #83 Talking Point Detective

??

Not sure what you're referencing there.

PP was never associated with abortion services prior to RvW. It became something of a lightning rod after Nixon initiated the Southern Strategy in 1968 and RvW was ruled in the early 70's. PP became an easy target for the Gaspers.

90 Targetpractice  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 8:07:30pm

re: #84 austin_blue

Oops! Good call. I thought the Vinson was out of Nofuck. Much nicer weather in SD.

Nah, carriers out of NAS Norfolk are the Big E, the Ike, the Teddy, the Truman, and the Bush Sr.

91 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 8:08:26pm

re: #41 Killgore Trout

The choice of firearm is wrong for a Tea Partier. No self respecting wingnut is going to use an Ak4, they're AR15 folks. I'd put Occupy DC "Peace activist" ahead of wingnut Tea Partier ahead on this one.

Killgore, we've seen video of a man at a Tea Party event showing off his underfolder AKM. So I'm sorry to say that you are in error, even as sarc.

92 freetoken  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 8:09:19pm

I still can't believe that the Penn State's McQueary has "received threats" (see the news story). If that's indeed true, then there is some sickness in this country that is beyond KT's worst nightmare about OWS.

93 jaunte  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 8:10:10pm

re: #92 freetoken

People hate to have the flow of their entertainment disrupted.

94 Kragar  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 8:10:43pm

re: #92 freetoken

I still can't believe that the Penn State's McQueary has "received threats" (see the news story). If that's indeed true, then there is some sickness in this country that is beyond KT's worst nightmare about OWS.

THESE PEOPLE ARE PUTTING THE PROGRAM AT RISK!
/

95 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 8:11:02pm

re: #76 Talking Point Detective

Navajo code talkers:

[Link: www.npr.org...]

Thought I'd throw this in:

[Link: tv.azpm.org...]

[Link: www.hulu.com...]

And while I'm at it - an absolutely amazing interview about Margaret Sanger, Planned Parenthood, and eugenics.

[Link: www.npr.org...]

One of the amazing factoids from the interview: Barry Freakin' Goldwater (and wife) was a major Planned Parenthood supporter. The history of politics around abortion and birth control is absolutely insane.

Goldwater was very much in favor of "freedom to live as you please", to use the Ancient Greek phrasing. That led him to favor free markets and a strong national defense, but also to oppose most social regulation. He was never a fan of Comstockery.

96 freetoken  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 8:11:02pm

re: #93 jaunte

College sports is a substitute for tribal warfare, no doubt about it.

97 Killgore Trout  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 8:11:43pm

re: #91 Dark_Falcon

Killgore, we've seen video of a man at a Tea Party event showing off his underfolder AKM. So I'm sorry to say that you are in error, even as sarc.

It's a DC local crime issue, not political.

98 Talking Point Detective  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 8:12:09pm

re: #89 austin_blue

PP was never associated with abortion services prior to RvW. It became something of a lightning rod after Nixon initiated the Southern Strategy in 1968 and RvW was ruled in the early 70's. PP became an easy target for the Gaspers.

From the interview:

By the late 1960s, Richard Nixon was pushing Congress to increase federal funding for family planning. In 1970, he signed Title X into law. The bill provided federal government funds for family planning services. A year later, Nixon reversed his position on Title X, after his advisers suggested he could divide the Democratic Party by taking a strong stand against abortion services. (Though abortion was illegal at the time, some restrictions had been lifted and it could be performed, in some cases, on military bases.)

"He begins talking about the sanctity of human life, and he then opposes Title X funding as part of his campaign to court Catholic voters when he runs for re-election," says Lepore.

Nixon was re-elected in 1972. A year later, the Supreme Court issued its key ruling on abortion, Roe v. Wade. Lepore says she decided to focus on the years before Roe v. Wade in her piece because she was able to track how issues like birth control and abortion became partisan over the years.

And my understanding that Goldwater's support for PP was well before Rove v. Wade, not after?

99 albusteve  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 8:12:10pm

re: #90 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

Nah, carriers out of NAS Norfolk are the Big E, the Ike, the Teddy, the Truman, and the Bush Sr.

I saw the Big Ike out beyond the bridge from NF...the she dumped all her planes, that was really cool, then we saw her down at the docks....only time I ever saw such a sight....utterly gigantic, and parked right on the street

100 Targetpractice  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 8:12:12pm

re: #92 freetoken

I still can't believe that the Penn State's McQueary has "received threats" (see the news story). If that's indeed true, then there is some sickness in this country that is beyond KT's worst nightmare about OWS.

It's the logical next step in defense of "JoePa," I've seen it elsewhere today. They're now trying to claim that McQueary was solely responsible for this not getting out, that anybody he reported to after that was bound to the college rules and thus "just did their job." So, in their mind, McQueary's the guy who should be getting run through the wringer, not Paterno.

101 jaunte  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 8:13:30pm

re: #100 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

"bound to the college rules"

What are they suggesting the rules were, in the context of a crime?

102 Killgore Trout  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 8:13:46pm
103 Targetpractice  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 8:15:26pm

re: #99 albusteve

I saw the Big Ike out beyond the bridge from NF...the she dumped all her planes, that was really cool, then we saw her down at the docks...only time I ever saw such a sight...utterly gigantic, and parked right on the street

When I was alot younger, my old man took me down to NAS Norfolk one day, down to the docks. And you never realize just how big these ships are until you actually get to see them up close. The saying is that each carrier is "4 and a half square miles of sovereign US territory," and I believe it.

104 Kragar  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 8:15:39pm

re: #100 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

It's the logical next step in defense of "JoePa," I've seen it elsewhere today. They're now trying to claim that McQueary was solely responsible for this not getting out, that anybody he reported to after that was bound to the college rules and thus "just did their job." So, in their mind, McQueary's the guy who should be getting run through the wringer, not Paterno.

THE FUCKER SHIELDED A CHILD MOLESTER FOR YEARS! So what if all he was "required" to do was make one call? This is the kind of shit you fucking warn people about.

Paterno is a subhuman piece of shit.

105 Kragar  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 8:15:57pm

re: #102 Killgore Trout

Good news! Killer solar flare won't destroy Earth!
Well, that's comforting.

Yet.

106 Talking Point Detective  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 8:16:12pm

re: #95 Dark_Falcon

Goldwater was very much in favor of "freedom to live as you please", to use the Ancient Greek phrasing. That led him to favor free markets and a strong national defense, but also to oppose most social regulation. He was never a fan of Comstockery.

Wow!

Jay Nenninger, in 1992, "blasted" Goldwater for his opposition to a statewide pro-life ballot measure -- Prop. 110 -- which would ban abortions except to save the mother's life (Arizona Republic 10/31/92). Not only did Goldwater oppose the pro-life initiative, he appeared in pro-abortion commercials urging its defeat (L.A. Times 12/9/92) and, although he "rarely attended" such events, Goldwater appeared at a fundraiser for the pro-abortion group working against it saying "I don't think [banning abortion] is something that should be in politics" (The Phoenix Gazette 10/1/92). The pro-life proposition later failed by almost a 2-1 margin at the polls in November.

Goldwater also "shocked" pro-life leaders and Republican officials when he endorsed Karan English, a pro-abortion Democrat, over pro-life GOP incumbent Doug Wead. Goldwater said Wead's stance on abortion and his Christianity were reasons for Goldwater's opposition. Goldwater stunned the Christian community with his remark, "I don't think God should be sold for money. And when [Christians] get into politics, I don't think that's good." (Arizona Republic 11/7/92).

107 Targetpractice  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 8:16:37pm

re: #101 jaunte

What are they suggesting the rules were, in the context of a crime?

Basically, they're arguing that once McQueary reported to Paterno, Joe was under no obligation to do more than pass it up the chain of command. So by doing so, he did his part and is now being "punished" for it.

108 Talking Point Detective  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 8:18:01pm

re: #97 Killgore Trout

It's a DC local crime issue, not political.

You can do better than that. There must be a picture of a hippie walking around in the area just before the shots rang out.

109 jaunte  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 8:18:03pm

re: #107 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

In Penn State football politics, he was the top guy.

110 Dancing along the light of day  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 8:18:17pm

re: #100 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

It's the logical next step in defense of "JoePa," I've seen it elsewhere today. They're now trying to claim that McQueary was solely responsible for this not getting out, that anybody he reported to after that was bound to the college rules and thus "just did their job." So, in their mind, McQueary's the guy who should be getting run through the wringer, not Paterno.

What he SHOULD have done is called 911, and gone to the police.
As, should anyone else that he reported this to.
None of them did that.
It's called a "coverup" and the whistle has now been blown.

How would you feel if this had been YOUR CHILD?

111 Kragar  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 8:19:01pm

re: #107 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

Basically, they're arguing that once McQueary reported to Paterno, Joe was under no obligation to do more than pass it up the chain of command. So by doing so, he did his part and is now being "punished" for it.

So if someone fucked their 12 year old, and there was a witness who never told them, but told his supervisor who covered it up, they would be fine with that . Thats what they are arguing.

112 Kragar  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 8:19:22pm

re: #109 jaunte

In Penn State football politics, he was the top guy.

Fuck Penn State and fuck football.

113 Dancing along the light of day  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 8:19:54pm

re: #112 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Fuck Penn State and fuck football.

No, they fucked children.

114 jaunte  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 8:19:57pm

re: #112 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

They sacrificed the kids to protect the money.

115 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 8:20:01pm

re: #110 Floral Giraffe

What he SHOULD have done is called 911, and gone to the police.
As, should anyone else that he reported this to.
None of them did that.
It's called a "coverup" and the whistle has now been blown.

How would you feel if this had been YOUR CHILD?

That would be the point, wouldn't it?

The whole POINT of his charity was to give him access to boys whose more vulnerable. Boys from single parent homes, etc.

He purposefully found boys whose parents weren't powerful enough to do anything about it.

116 albusteve  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 8:20:08pm

re: #108 Talking Point Detective

You can do better than that. There must be a picture of a hippie walking around in the area just before the shots rang out.

why the snipe?...it is what it is
you guys crack me up

117 Killgore Trout  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 8:20:24pm

re: #108 Talking Point Detective

You can do better than that. There must be a picture of a hippie walking around in the area just before the shots rang out.

That time of night in DC? Fat chance.

118 reine.de.tout  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 8:20:34pm

re: #107 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

Basically, they're arguing that once McQueary reported to Paterno, Joe was under no obligation to do more than pass it up the chain of command. So by doing so, he did his part and is now being "punished" for it.

In my world, if I knew of something like this and reported it and then didn't see action being taken, I would have followed-up. Somehow, some way, until action was taken.

119 Targetpractice  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 8:20:40pm

re: #110 Floral Giraffe

What he SHOULD have done is called 911, and gone to the police.
As, should anyone else that he reported this to.
None of them did that.
It's called a "coverup" and the whistle has now been blown.

How would you feel if this had been YOUR CHILD?

I'm not making the argument, just trying to analyze it. I made my opinion of how low I think of Paterno clear when he was fired. And I'm beginning to think even less of those who are now defending him, if only because they're more concerned about him than the victims of this entire debacle. I understand some acted on incomplete info the night he was fired, but by now, that's not an excuse.

120 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 8:20:42pm

Related to the topic of the thread:

Montford Point Marines Reportedly Awarded Nation's Highest Civilian Honor

The Montford Point Marines — the first black Marine unit that served in the Pacific in World War II — are reportedly finally getting their due.

The U.S. Senate late Wednesday unanimously awarded the unit the Congressional Gold Medal, the nation’s highest civilian honor. The House passed the measure 422-0 on Oct. 25, the Detroit Free Press reports.

"The Montford Point Marines are finally receiving the recognition they deserve,” Sen. Kay Hagan, D-N.C., who pushed the measure in the Senate, said after its approval. "These men, who were based out of North Carolina in WWII, served our country with courage and dedication, even in the face of discrimination and intolerance. There is no better way to celebrate the Marine Corps’ birthday and Veterans Day than by honoring these men for their service and sacrifice, and granting them the recognition that is 50 years overdue."

Yes, it's FNC, but the story isn't problematic at all.

121 reine.de.tout  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 8:20:54pm

re: #109 jaunte

In Penn State football politics, he was the top guy.

The way I hear it, at Penn State, he was the top guy, period.

122 albusteve  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 8:21:32pm

re: #112 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Fuck Penn State and fuck football.

and fuck hot dogs and cheerleaders

123 Atlas Fails  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 8:21:40pm

re: #72 SanFranciscoZionist

Except that Occupy Oakland is now keeping their money at Wells Fargo...

Definitely not wise. Even I had to laugh at that one.

Still, a part of me has really come to love the Occupiers. I'm too young to have been part of the anti-Vietnam/"hippie" movement, but I've always been fascinated by it and, honestly, probably would have been a part of it had I been around. Sure, just like the Occupiers, the anti-war movement attracted its fair share of nutcases, but for all the disdain for Dirty Fucking Hippies, didn't history judge the original hippies to be on the right side of the issues of the day, like Vietnam and civil rights?

Maybe I'm romanticizing OWS. After all, my grandmother, a lifelong liberal Democrat, still doesn't think highly of the anti-war hippie movement due to their embrace of the drug culture and their treatment of Vietnam vets. OWS may face a similar problem if its more radical elements continue to represent it in the media. But I still find myself drawn to the movement, especially after some recent events in my life that have caused me to favor single payer healthcare. Maybe OWS is just a bunch of DFHs, but that doesn't mean they can't be right.

/end ramble

124 reine.de.tout  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 8:21:41pm

re: #114 jaunte

They sacrificed the kids to protect the money.

Yep.

125 Dancing along the light of day  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 8:21:42pm

re: #115 EmmmieG

I don't know that's I'd go that far.
It's a possibility.
He may just be another common predator.
We'll see how many victims come out of this.
I just don't know.

126 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 8:21:48pm

re: #117 Killgore Trout

That time of night in DC? Fat chance.

He's right. DC isn't like Lower Manhattan, its far more dangerous at night.

127 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 8:21:49pm

re: #100 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

This was the best/worst synopsis of what happened that I read today,

According to the grand jury, then, here is how McQueary’s eyewitness account became watered down at each stage:

McQueary: anal rape.
Paterno: something of a sexual nature.
Schultz: inappropriately grabbing of the young boy’s genitals.
Curley: inappropriate conduct or horsing around.
Spanier: conduct that made someone uncomfortable.
Raykovitz: a ban on bringing kids to the locker room.

[Link: www.pennlive.com...]

majorly fucked up

128 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 8:21:56pm

re: #118 reine.de.tout

In my world, if I knew of something like this and reported it and then didn't see action being taken, I would have followed-up. Somehow, some way, until action was taken.

Oh, they took action.

They tried to protect the school.

129 Dancing along the light of day  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 8:23:16pm

re: #128 EmmmieG

Oh, they took action.

They tried to protect the school.

They hid the crimes.

FTFY.

130 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 8:23:35pm

re: #102 Killgore Trout

Good news! Killer solar flare won't destroy Earth!
Well, that's comforting.

Also, one of my students has informed me, via e-mail, that he has discovered that his family has no financial problems.

This might seem like good news to YOU, but it's going to require us to substantially rewrite his college entrance essay.

131 Targetpractice  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 8:23:39pm

re: #121 reine.de.tout

The way I hear it, at Penn State, he was the top guy, period.

Yep, Paterno essentially was God to the Penn State football program. Pretty much everybody on his staff either played for him at one time or was related to him. To say that he had no control over the program is an absolute farce. He could have had Sandusky thrown out on his ear without problem, but he didn't because that would have brought questions, brought inquiries, and the truth would have gotten out. So the cover-up went up, Sandusky was shuffled off quietly, and no big stink was made about it.

132 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 8:24:11pm

re: #112 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Very few people in Chicago, Milwaukee or Green Bay will ever agree with "fuck football" (Milwaukee fans root for the Packers). It holds intense interest here, and in the office today the Bears-Lions game talk was pretty intense.

133 prairiefire  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 8:26:01pm

re: #131 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

There's going to be a big stink now. I don't think history will be kind to him.

134 Kragar  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 8:26:05pm

re: #132 Dark_Falcon

Very few people in Chicago, Milwaukee or Green Bay will ever agree with "fuck football" (Milwaukee fans root for the Packers). It holds intense interest here, and in the office today the Bears-Lions game talk was pretty intense.

They need a hobby.

135 Targetpractice  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 8:26:34pm

Apparently all the hatred's being directed at McQueary because he's still got his job, even though he's been put on administrative leave. It's being played up as the school "punishing" everybody else while leaving the real culprit alone. But the reality is that, due to whistleblower protections, the school can't fire him until the Sandusky trial ends. They fire him, then the case falls apart.

136 albusteve  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 8:27:04pm

re: #121 reine.de.tout

The way I hear it, at Penn State, he was the top guy, period.

got your mail

137 jaunte  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 8:27:18pm

re: #135 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

He'll probably need some bodyguards.

138 austin_blue  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 8:28:14pm

re: #98 Talking Point Detective

From the interview:

And my understanding that Goldwater's support for PP was well before Rove v. Wade, not after?

He certainly was in support before RvW. I can't speak to the latter. Then again, Goldwater mellowed in his dotage. He supported gay rights (he had a gay son). Who's to say his later positions on abortions weren't similarly Libertarian?

139 Targetpractice  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 8:28:42pm

re: #137 jaunte

He'll probably need some bodyguards.

I figure that's why he's been put on leave, as word is he's already getting death threats. I don't exactly have kind thoughts for the guy either, but I understand that the school's hands are tied. They can't fire him without letting Sandusky off the hook, but not doing so makes it look like favoritism.

140 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 8:29:28pm

re: #135 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

Apparently all the hatred's being directed at McQueary because he's still got his job, even though he's been put on administrative leave. It's being played up as the school "punishing" everybody else while leaving the real culprit alone. But the reality is that, due to whistleblower protections, the school can't fire him until the Sandusky trial ends. They fire him, then the case falls apart.

How do the whistleblower protections fit in?

141 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 8:29:33pm

re: #125 Floral Giraffe

I don't know that's I'd go that far.
It's a possibility.
He may just be another common predator.
We'll see how many victims come out of this.
I just don't know.

Eight in the indictments. There's a hotline, so the number will grow.

142 albusteve  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 8:29:53pm

re: #137 jaunte

He'll probably need some bodyguards.

time to move to Nova Scotia

143 Atlas Fails  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 8:30:43pm

re: #132 Dark_Falcon

Very few people in Chicago, Milwaukee or Green Bay will ever agree with "fuck football" (Milwaukee fans root for the Packers). It holds intense interest here, and in the office today the Bears-Lions game talk was pretty intense.

I've been a football fan my whole life, but I'm getting really fucking sick of it, especially on the college side. Schools give scholarships to players who often times wouldn't be accepted to the college otherwise, while the rest of us either work full time, go into massive debt, or both. And now the NCAA wants to start paying athletes on top of that? This PSU thing just makes me sick, especially since I considered going there, but the whole NCAA is rotten to its core.

144 austin_blue  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 8:31:57pm

re: #118 reine.de.tout

In my world, if I knew of something like this and reported it and then didn't see action being taken, I would have followed-up. Somehow, some way, until action was taken.

Agreed! The Monster was allowed to continue to fuck pre-pubescent boys in the ass for nine years to protect the brand.

Ped State has a lot to answer for.

145 Targetpractice  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 8:33:32pm

re: #140 Dark_Falcon

How do the whistleblower protections fit in?

Best explanation I've found so far is this: Washington Post: Penn State says Mike McQueary placed on leave, won’t be at game on Saturday

146 albusteve  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 8:35:46pm

why do Catholics hate little boys?

147 BishopX  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 8:38:05pm

re: #146 albusteve

Because they're not as cute a 12-year old jesus?/

148 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 8:38:17pm

This made me think of Varek.

I don't know why.

How is everyone?

Have a good Friday so far?

149 albusteve  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 8:39:49pm

Jesus can walk on water but he tolerates this shit?...where is that divinity?

150 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 8:41:17pm

Someone from Oregon and someone from Missouri tried to call my cell phone today and I didn't hear/ or wasn't taking calls. I hate when they don't leave a message and I have no idea who they could be.

Why does this happen?

151 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 8:41:43pm

re: #149 albusteve

Jesus can walk on water but he tolerates this shit?...where is that divinity?

Free Will and shit.

Probably why I lean towards a diest point of view.

152 Dancing along the light of day  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 8:42:52pm

re: #150 ggt

Wrong numbers.
My cell number, when new, got 2-4AM calls in I couldn't TELL you what language. They stopped, and I stopped freaking, by turning the phone off at night.

153 Targetpractice  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 8:42:54pm

re: #151 ggt

Free Will and shit.

Probably why I lean towards a diest point of view.

Agreed.

154 Atlas Fails  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 8:43:04pm

re: #146 albusteve

why do Catholics hate little boys?

Why does Church hierarchy spew virulent anti-gay hate speech but tolerate, and even aid in, the sexual abuse of children? I'm quickly becoming estranged from the Church, and their failure to answer that question and many others are big reasons why. I'll always have fond memories of my own childhood priests and my time at Catholic school, but I've taken a very cynical view of the institution itself, which is saying something, since I'm usually a pretty optimistic (and even, at times, naive) person.

155 William Barnett-Lewis  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 8:44:38pm

re: #151 ggt

Free Will and shit.

Probably why I lean towards a diest point of view.

To paraphrase Churchill, free will sucks but it's better than the alternatives.

156 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 8:44:43pm

re: #146 albusteve

why do Catholics hate little boys?

Yah know, one thing you'd think we might all get from this horrific mess is the understanding that secular organizations can be just as vile and protective of monsters as a religious hierarchy.

157 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 8:45:58pm

re: #155 wlewisiii

To paraphrase Churchill, free will sucks but it's better than the alternatives.

You know what's fun? Trying to explain predestination to a room full of kids who've gone to Catholic school all their lives. That's fun.

158 austin_blue  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 8:46:28pm

re: #146 albusteve

why do Catholics hate little boys?

The problem is that some people love little boys.

Of all the sexual preferences in the vast array of human sexuality, I have always found pedophiles the most pitiful. I truly believe that pretty much everyone is hard-wired at birth. Some folks are asexual. Some are pansexual and thus can conform to societal norms by choosing acceptable partners. Some are male straight, female straight, male gay, female gay, or bisexual.

But the adult, male or female, whose erotic ideal is a child of either sex, fall into the category of Monster in our society, and rightly so.

And I have no idea what to do with these people who are no more guilty of being hard-wired that way than any straight man or woman walking the streets today. Their desires are heinous, but how does one deal with them?

Discuss!

159 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 8:46:59pm

re: #149 albusteve

Jesus can walk on water but he tolerates this shit?...where is that divinity?

Help me out here. Are you asking if he's okay with it, or why he doesn't stop it?

160 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 8:47:09pm

They've hired D.C. attorneys?

Way to much money in College Sports.

161 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 8:48:30pm

re: #145 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

Best explanation I've found so far is this: Washington Post: Penn State says Mike McQueary placed on leave, won’t be at game on Saturday

Thanks.

162 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 8:48:39pm

re: #154 Atlas Fails

Why does Church hierarchy spew virulent anti-gay hate speech but tolerate, and even aid in, the sexual abuse of children? I'm quickly becoming estranged from the Church, and their failure to answer that question and many others are big reasons why. I'll always have fond memories of my own childhood priests and my time at Catholic school, but I've taken a very cynical view of the institution itself, which is saying something, since I'm usually a pretty optimistic (and even, at times, naive) person.

It's disgusting to me that Church hierarchy doesn't follow church Doctrine.

humans . . .

163 William Barnett-Lewis  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 8:49:13pm

re: #157 SanFranciscoZionist

You know what's fun? Trying to explain predestination to a room full of kids who've gone to Catholic school all their lives. That's fun.

Can't match that, though arguing for Universalism with an old school Scottish Presbyterian did come close. ;)

164 Kragar  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 8:49:48pm

re: #157 SanFranciscoZionist

You know what's fun? Trying to explain predestination to a room full of kids who've gone to Catholic school all their lives. That's fun.

I'll stick with the Chaos gods, thank you very much.

165 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 8:50:06pm

re: #158 austin_blue

The problem is that some people love little boys.

Of all the sexual preferences in the vast array of human sexuality, I have always found pedophiles the most pitiful. I truly believe that pretty much everyone is hard-wired at birth. Some folks are asexual. Some are pansexual and thus can conform to societal norms by choosing acceptable partners. Some are male straight, female straight, male gay, female gay, or bisexual.

But the adult, male or female, whose erotic ideal is a child of either sex, fall into the category of Monster in our society, and rightly so.

And I have no idea what to do with these people who are no more guilty of being hard-wired that way than any straight man or woman walking the streets today. Their desires are heinous, but how does one deal with them?

Discuss!

Free Will, one does not have to act on one's impulses.

I really really want to say something that will get me banned from this blog about Paterno et. al. But, I neither carry out my wish or post about it.

166 Dancing along the light of day  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 8:50:30pm

re: #157 SanFranciscoZionist

You know what's fun? Trying to explain predestination to a room full of kids who've gone to Catholic school all their lives. That's fun.

And you know what, there isn't ANYONE better to do that than you.
You will do it with joy and pleasure!

167 albusteve  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 8:50:37pm

re: #159 EmmmieG

Help me out here. Are you asking if he's okay with it, or why he doesn't stop it?

He doesn't talk to Me...if the SOB can cheat death, then why does he allow such suffering?

168 freetoken  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 8:51:19pm

re: #167 albusteve

He doesn't talk to Me...if the SOB can cheat death, then why does he allow such suffering?

Ahh... the old Theodicy question...

169 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 8:51:52pm

re: #167 albusteve

He doesn't talk to Me...if the SOB can cheat death, then why does he allow such suffering?

That is one of the great philosophical questions of the ages.

170 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 8:52:01pm

re: #158 austin_blue

The problem is that some people love little boys.

Of all the sexual preferences in the vast array of human sexuality, I have always found pedophiles the most pitiful. I truly believe that pretty much everyone is hard-wired at birth. Some folks are asexual. Some are pansexual and thus can conform to societal norms by choosing acceptable partners. Some are male straight, female straight, male gay, female gay, or bisexual.

But the adult, male or female, whose erotic ideal is a child of either sex, fall into the category of Monster in our society, and rightly so.

And I have no idea what to do with these people who are no more guilty of being hard-wired that way than any straight man or woman walking the streets today. Their desires are heinous, but how does one deal with them?

Discuss!

No thanks. That's far too incendiary a topic to touch.

171 Dancing along the light of day  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 8:52:05pm

re: #167 albusteve

He doesn't talk to Me...if the SOB can cheat death, then why does he allow such suffering?

You need to be on better terms to discuss such things with him. WE don't know!

172 Kragar  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 8:52:45pm

re: #167 albusteve

He doesn't talk to Me...if the SOB can cheat death, then why does he allow such suffering?

If his modern spokesmen are any example, its because he was a dick and a hypocrite.

173 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 8:52:59pm

re: #120 Dark_Falcon

[Link: www.loc.gov...]

174 Atlas Fails  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 8:53:14pm

re: #158 austin_blue

It's definitely a dilemma. Guys like Sandusky get no mercy from me, as they chose to put their own sexual gratification above the welfare and innocence of children, but the question remains, how do we deal with people who experience pedophilic urges but don't act on them? Chemical castration? For what, thinking naughty thoughts? Plus, the effectiveness of chemical castration has even been called into question. Mandatory counseling? Fat chance that'll make any difference. I really don't know. If I ever found myself experiencing such urges, I'd probably kill myself. Clearly, that's not a long-term solution to the societal problem of child abuse.

175 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 8:53:56pm

re: #149 albusteve

Jesus can walk on water but he tolerates this shit?...where is that divinity?

Divinity, schminity.

176 William Barnett-Lewis  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 8:54:01pm

re: #167 albusteve

He doesn't talk to Me...if the SOB can cheat death, then why does he allow such suffering?

Cheat death? Rather got to experience it in full via one of humanities more cleverly nasty ways and then got brought back by the boss and told to be nice to us anyway...

177 austin_blue  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 8:55:29pm

re: #165 ggt

Free Will, one does not have to act on one's impulses.

I really really want to say something that will get me banned from this blog about Paterno et. al. But, I neither carry out my wish or post about it.

Okay, imagine being a male heterosexual who happens to live in a society where procreation is only allowed by in vitro, based on genetics, and the only form of sexual intercourse that is banned is heterosexual. Everything else is wide open and accepted.

How's you free will doing now?

178 albusteve  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 8:55:32pm

re: #168 freetoken

Ahh... the old Theodicy question...

way earlier today, there was a discussion trying to define what is Christian...I had a good laugh...bunch of clueless nutters

179 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 8:56:25pm

re: #173 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

[Link: www.loc.gov...]

You need to Page that. It's a great resource.

180 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 8:56:40pm

re: #158 austin_blue

The problem is that some people love little boys.

Of all the sexual preferences in the vast array of human sexuality, I have always found pedophiles the most pitiful. I truly believe that pretty much everyone is hard-wired at birth. Some folks are asexual. Some are pansexual and thus can conform to societal norms by choosing acceptable partners. Some are male straight, female straight, male gay, female gay, or bisexual.

But the adult, male or female, whose erotic ideal is a child of either sex, fall into the category of Monster in our society, and rightly so.

And I have no idea what to do with these people who are no more guilty of being hard-wired that way than any straight man or woman walking the streets today. Their desires are heinous, but how does one deal with them?

Discuss!

We've talked about this here before, and like everyone, I got no answers, except to say that I have a suspicion that not all child abusers are hardwired pedophiles, and not all hardwired pedophiles are child abusers. There's two things at work here, and one of them is the willingness to hurt a child.

I do think that for people who are at risk for becoming abusers, there should be a network of treatment and support available. I fear that now, the subject is so highly taboo (for obvious and good reason) that a nonoffender seeking help is essentially unthinkable.

And then we get into the whole shaky fine line between exploiting a child and exploiting a young and vulnerable near-adult, which was so ably exploited by assholes who argued that the Catholic scandals were about ephebophilia, rather than pedophilia, which was supposed to somehow make this both less awful, and also the gays fault.

181 albusteve  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 8:56:47pm

re: #171 Floral Giraffe

You need to be on better terms to discuss such things with him. WE don't know!

I guess you don't

182 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 8:57:38pm

re: #163 wlewisiii

Can't match that, though arguing for Universalism with an old school Scottish Presbyterian did come close. ;)

Twenty-five Catholic teenagers. And "Sinners In The Hands of An Angry God". That was a class, all right.

183 Kragar  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 8:59:35pm

re: #177 austin_blue

Okay, imagine being a male heterosexual who happens to live in a society where procreation is only allowed by in vitro, based on genetics, and the only form of sexual intercourse that is banned is heterosexual. Everything else is wide open and accepted.

How's you free will doing now?

You been reading "The Forever War" again?

184 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 9:00:26pm

re: #174 Atlas Fails

"Guys like Sandusky get no mercy from me, as they chose to put their own sexual gratification above the welfare and innocence of children, but the question remains, how do we deal with people who experience pedophilic urges but don't act on them?"

First of all, we as a society, adjudicate Rape of all forms on the same level as Murder. Perhaps Violent Rape for Adults and any Rape for children, elderly and those who are mentally disabled.

We need to make a Strong Statement thru the Law, that we do not APPROVE.

As it is it would be the States which decide punishment.

If I were King --I'd make Murder and Rape Capital Crimes. All Capital Crimes would be adjudicated on the Federal level to insure inequalities were limited.

185 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 9:01:06pm

re: #157 SanFranciscoZionist

You know what's fun? Trying to explain predestination to a room full of kids who've gone to Catholic school all their lives. That's fun.

Or watching a bunch of Calvinist children try to explain it among themselves. That gets interesting.

186 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 9:01:51pm

re: #185 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

Or watching a bunch of Calvinist children try to explain it among themselves. That gets interesting.

Predestination comes in handy if you need an excuse to eat more chocolate.

Too bad I don't believe in it.

187 Atlas Fails  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 9:01:52pm

re: #182 SanFranciscoZionist

Twenty-five Catholic teenagers. And "Sinners In The Hands of An Angry God". That was a class, all right.

That whole doctrine always seemed especially screwy to me. Why would a benevolent God create lesser beings that were, by design, inherently flawed, and then selectively punish them for...being inherently flawed. This applies not only to free will vs. predestination, but also the concept of original sin. Glad I'm not a theology major.

188 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 9:02:18pm

re: #182 SanFranciscoZionist

Twenty-five Catholic teenagers. And "Sinners In The Hands of An Angry God". That was a class, all right.

Jonathon Edwards had a way with words. His graphic depictions of God's Wrath grap your attention and his image of that wrath as a huge amount of water that is dammed (held by a dam) for the moment stuck in my head permanently.

189 Kragar  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 9:02:30pm

re: #182 SanFranciscoZionist

Twenty-five Catholic teenagers. And "Sinners In The Hands of An Angry God". That was a class, all right.

My high school senior year English class. The teacher and 25 of the students in the class all attended the same church, and managed to find the religious significance in every book we read. My buddy and I, the only atheist and agnostic in the class, loved the discussions.

190 freetoken  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 9:03:29pm

It should be noted that the Theodicy problem goes away if one does not have an omnipotent, benevolent Deity.

191 Obdicut  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 9:03:31pm

re: #180 SanFranciscoZionist

Lots of pedophiles never act on their desires. Many seek therapy for it. Some remove themselves from any situation where they could be at risk of acting. Some get by on willpower.

Having been the victim of a pedophile myself, I spent a lot of time trying to understand their various psychologies, and one of the most important things that I learned was that, for most pedophiles, they're not going around 24/7 with thoughts of little boys in their heads. They're like everyone else. Sure, we think about sex a lot, but it's not an absolute constant in our lives. Many pedophiles have things they genuinely, non-creepily enjoy in life and are able to focus on that. Many of them are able to have sex with age-appropriate people, as well-- it's not always an absolute limit on their sexuality.

And the vast, vast, vast majority know that what they are doing is wrong, and can, and should, be held very accountable if they fail to resist. Just like I should be held accountable if I let the rage that is inside me boil over into violence against someone else. Whether through my nature or from my PTSD, I have a strong inclination towards violence. It's part of why I value self-control so highly. I am a deeply violent person. I haven't struck another human being in nigh unto fourteen years now, and the last time I did was in a consensual boxing match.

Do I still find a pedophile who fantasizes but not acts creepy and disgusting? Sure. But if he is cursed with those terrible desires and manages to fight against them successfully, manages not to act, that's something to be grateful for.

The scientific literature clearly shows that pedophiles are able to not act on their desires. To do so is a choice. The treatment of them should reflect that. Those who are both pedophiles and otherwise cruel-- they are probably beyond rehabilitation.

192 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 9:03:32pm

re: #177 austin_blue

Okay, imagine being a male heterosexual who happens to live in a society where procreation is only allowed by in vitro, based on genetics, and the only form of sexual intercourse that is banned is heterosexual. Everything else is wide open and accepted.

How's you free will doing now?

I can't imagine being a male anything.

I don't really understand your question. When you say 'Procreation" are you talking actually making babies or are you using it as a euphamism for sex?

193 reine.de.tout  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 9:03:34pm

re: #154 Atlas Fails

Why does Church hierarchy spew virulent anti-gay hate speech but tolerate, and even aid in, the sexual abuse of children? I'm quickly becoming estranged from the Church, and their failure to answer that question and many others are big reasons why. I'll always have fond memories of my own childhood priests and my time at Catholic school, but I've taken a very cynical view of the institution itself, which is saying something, since I'm usually a pretty optimistic (and even, at times, naive) person.

You are not alone in your views.

194 ProGunLiberal  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 9:04:01pm

re: #170 Dark_Falcon

I'll make one comment off of a realization I had in a class a little bit ago. This shows, to a point, the weakness of the hierarchy. That is to say: The position of the Pope is far less powerful than one would think.

195 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 9:04:13pm

re: #186 EmmmieG

Predestination comes in handy if you need an excuse to eat more chocolate.

Too bad I don't believe in it.

Or do anything, really. /

Can't say I blame you with the disbelief.

196 freetoken  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 9:05:07pm

re: #186 EmmmieG

Predestination comes in handy if you need an excuse to eat more chocolate.

Always wondered why I eat so much of the stuff... thanks, now you've given me a reason.

197 William Barnett-Lewis  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 9:05:19pm

re: #182 SanFranciscoZionist

Twenty-five Catholic teenagers. And "Sinners In The Hands of An Angry God". That was a class, all right.

Oy! If you're ever in that spot again, add "A Learned Discourse of Justification, Works, and how the Foundation of Faith is Overthrown" which was an exquisite sermon by Richard Hooker. It's a good balance to the excesses of the Reformations. Short version: he argued in 1585 England that Catholics were saved too. Major ruckus ensued.

198 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 9:05:28pm

re: #187 Atlas Fails

That whole doctrine always seemed especially screwy to me. Why would a benevolent God create lesser beings that were, by design, inherently flawed, and then selectively punish them for...being inherently flawed. This applies not only to free will vs. predestination, but also the concept of original sin. Glad I'm not a theology major.

To sit back and watch. Why he didn't just make TV, I don't know.

:)

199 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 9:05:48pm

re: #177 austin_blue

Okay, imagine being a male heterosexual who happens to live in a society where procreation is only allowed by in vitro, based on genetics, and the only form of sexual intercourse that is banned is heterosexual. Everything else is wide open and accepted.

How's you free will doing now?

Is the word "mother" illegal, too? /

200 Kragar  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 9:06:38pm

re: #190 freetoken

It should be noted that the Theodicy problem goes away if one does not have an omnipotent, benevolent Deity.

I put my trust in Crom. Problem solved.

201 Atlas Fails  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 9:07:03pm

re: #199 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

Is the word "mother" illegal, too? /

No, simply obscene and pornographic./

202 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 9:08:02pm

re: #201 Atlas Fails

No, simply obscene and pornographic./

Ah. I think I read that book.

203 Targetpractice  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 9:09:56pm

re: #200 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

I put my trust in Crom. Problem solved.

Hallowed are the Ori.

//

204 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 9:10:01pm

re: #187 Atlas Fails

That whole doctrine always seemed especially screwy to me. Why would a benevolent God create lesser beings that were, by design, inherently flawed, and then selectively punish them for...being inherently flawed. This applies not only to free will vs. predestination, but also the concept of original sin. Glad I'm not a theology major.

Being as I majored in early modern history, I have had the concept explained to me many, many times, and I still don't get it at all.

Having been raised Jewish, with Catholic family, my ideas about How God Works were just too deeply set in a way that made predestination unthinkable.

The trick, in the example that you give, IIUC is that we're coming to it from the wrong angle. God's infinite and extraordinary mercy is manifest in the fact that ANY of us will be saved.

205 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 9:10:03pm

Truth be told, my beliefs are far more metaphysical than what is easy to discuss.

The simplistic idea of a Diety creating a species at all is really idiotic to me. But what other frame of reference do we have for our myths?

It's sad to me that we can't teach our children how to live together without "stories". But, it seems that is the way we do things as humans.

206 Atlas Fails  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 9:10:12pm

re: #202 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

Ah. I think I read that book.

Pron of the future! Spoiler alert: it sucks (as pron, not as music.)

207 Kragar  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 9:10:27pm

re: #202 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

Ah. I think I read that book.

The Forever War

Mandella, with soldier, lover and companion Marygay Potter, returns to civilian life, only to find humanity drastically changed. He and his fellow soldiers have difficulty fitting into a future society that has evolved almost beyond their comprehension. The veterans learn that to curb overpopulation, which led to worldwide class wars caused by inequitable rationing, homosexuality has become officially encouraged by many of the world's nations. The world has become a very dangerous place due to widespread unemployment and the easy availability of deadly weapons. The changes within society alienate Mandella and the other veterans to the point where many re-enlist to escape, even though they realize the military is a soulless construct. Mandella attempts to get an assignment as an instructor on Luna but is promptly reassigned by standing order to combat command. The inability of the military to treat its soldiers as more than highly complex valuable machines is a theme of the story.

Almost entirely through luck, Mandella survives four subjectively experienced years of military service, which time dilation makes equivalent to several centuries. He soon becomes the objectively oldest surviving soldier in the war, attaining high rank through seniority, not ambition (he is an eternally reluctant soldier, who acts mostly from talent and a melancholic sense of duty). Despite this he is separated from Marygay (who has remained his last contact with the Earth of his youth) by UNEF's plans, despite the fact that many of the people who he would command had not yet been born. As the commanding officer of a 'strike force', Mandella commands soldiers who speak a language largely unrecognizable to him, whose ethnicity is now nearly uniform and are exclusively homosexual. He is disliked by the soldiers because they have to learn 21st century English to communicate with him and other senior staff, and because he is heterosexual.

208 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 9:11:19pm

re: #188 Dark_Falcon

Jonathon Edwards had a way with words. His graphic depictions of God's Wrath grap your attention and his image of that wrath as a huge amount of water that is dammed (held by a dam) for the moment stuck in my head permanently.

It's an extraordinary piece. Not my theological cup of soup, but very, very powerful.

209 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 9:12:03pm

re: #204 SanFranciscoZionist

Being as I majored in early modern history, I have had the concept explained to me many, many times, and I still don't get it at all.

Having been raised Jewish, with Catholic family, my ideas about How God Works were just too deeply set in a way that made predestination unthinkable.

The trick, in the example that you give, IIUC is that we're coming to it from the wrong angle. God's infinite and extraordinary mercy is manifest in the fact that ANY of us will be saved.

Too many variables in the "experiment" of the Universe for Predestination to be possible, IMHO.

If I said that to most people I meet, their eyes would glaze over.

Short-hand is "Free Will".

210 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 9:12:17pm

Has anyone read Young Goodman Brown? Believe it or not, I hadn't until I became interested in a song by the Scarlet Furies.

The story explores the inability of a man to resolve his beliefs with the complexity of the real world.

Song's good, too. Got it from a Vampire video game.

211 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 9:12:59pm

re: #190 freetoken

It should be noted that the Theodicy problem goes away if one does not have an omnipotent, benevolent Deity.

I'll stick with the theodicy problem, if it's all the same to everyone.

212 Obdicut  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 9:13:40pm

re: #197 wlewisiii

There was also the great John Wilkins, who dedicated his life to promoting religious tolerance in Great Britain.

213 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 9:13:45pm

re: #207 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

The Forever War

More like...

214 freetoken  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 9:14:10pm

re: #210 EmmmieG

The story explores the inability of a man to resolve his beliefs with the complexity of the real world.

The heart of many good stories. Too, some classic movies, though it seems to me that in recent years the (Hollywood big budget) movie industry has ignored this basic source of stories.

215 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 9:14:28pm

Vocabulary Word for the Day:

Theodicy

Etymologically considered theodicy (theos dike) signifies the justification of God. The term was introduced into philosophy by Leibniz, who, in 1710, published a work entitled: "Essais de Théodicée sur la bonte de Dieu, la liberté de l'homme et l'origine du mal". The purpose of the essay was to show that the evil in the world does not conflict with the goodness of God, that, indeed, notwithstanding its many evils, the world is the best of all possible worlds (see OPTIMISM). The problem of evil (see EVIL) has from earliest times engrossed the attention of philosophers. The well-known sceptic Pierre Bayle had denied in his "Dictionnaire historique et critique" the goodness and omnipotence of God on account of the sufferings experienced in this earthly life. The "Théodicée" of Leibniz was directed mainly against Bayle. Imitating the example of Leibniz other philosophers now called their treatises on the problem of evil "theodicies". As in a thorough treatment of the question the proofs both of the existence and of the attributes of God cannot be disregarded, our entire knowledge of God was gradually brought within the domain of theodicy. Thus theodicy came to be synonymous with natural theology (theologia naturalis) that is, the department of metaphysics which presents the positive proofs for the existence and attributes of God and solves the opposing difficulties. Theodicy, therefore, may be defined as the science which treats of God through the exercise of reason alone. It is a science because it systematically arranges the content of our knowledge about God and demonstrates, in the strict sense of the word, each of its propositions. But it appeals to nature as its only source of proof, whereas theology sets forth our knowledge of God as drawn from the sources of supernatural revelation.

216 William Barnett-Lewis  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 9:15:18pm

re: #204 SanFranciscoZionist

God's infinite and extraordinary mercy is manifest in the fact that ANY of us will be saved.

This.

And, ultimately, I believe that if any are, then all will be. Damned if I know how how, but that's a few grades above my job description even when I'm teaching sunday school.

217 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 9:15:29pm

re: #214 freetoken

The heart of many good stories. Too, some classic movies, though it seems to me that in recent years the (Hollywood big budget) movie industry has ignored this basic source of stories.

Hollywood is only repeating itself at the moment.

218 austin_blue  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 9:15:40pm

re: #191 Obdicut

Lots of pedophiles never act on their desires. Many seek therapy for it. Some remove themselves from any situation where they could be at risk of acting. Some get by on willpower.

Having been the victim of a pedophile myself, I spent a lot of time trying to understand their various psychologies, and one of the most important things that I learned was that, for most pedophiles, they're not going around 24/7 with thoughts of little boys in their heads. They're like everyone else. Sure, we think about sex a lot, but it's not an absolute constant in our lives. Many pedophiles have things they genuinely, non-creepily enjoy in life and are able to focus on that. Many of them are able to have sex with age-appropriate people, as well-- it's not always an absolute limit on their sexuality.

And the vast, vast, vast majority know that what they are doing is wrong, and can, and should, be held very accountable if they fail to resist. Just like I should be held accountable if I let the rage that is inside me boil over into violence against someone else. Whether through my nature or from my PTSD, I have a strong inclination towards violence. It's part of why I value self-control so highly. I am a deeply violent person. I haven't struck another human being in nigh unto fourteen years now, and the last time I did was in a consensual boxing match.

Do I still find a pedophile who fantasizes but not acts creepy and disgusting? Sure. But if he is cursed with those terrible desires and manages to fight against them successfully, manages not to act, that's something to be grateful for.

The scientific literature clearly shows that pedophiles are able to not act on their desires. To do so is a choice. The treatment of them should reflect that. Those who are both pedophiles and otherwise cruel-- they are probably beyond rehabilitation.

*That* is an outstanding post. And you have my deepest condolences on your experiences, although that is probably nothing in your world view given that I have no comparable experience. And I agree, those that who choose not to abuse children, despite the fact that that is what they truly believe love is, are saints to our society, if not their genetics.

It's a horrible dilemma.

219 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 9:16:10pm

re: #197 wlewisiii

Oy! If you're ever in that spot again, add "A Learned Discourse of Justification, Works, and how the Foundation of Faith is Overthrown" which was an exquisite sermon by Richard Hooker. It's a good balance to the excesses of the Reformations. Short version: he argued in 1585 England that Catholics were saved too. Major ruckus ensued.

Oh, Edwards was fun. Weird, but fun.

What's not fun is the moment teaching sixth grade religion class, when a kid raises his hand and asks, with no reference to anything in class, "If you kill yourself, do you go to hell?"

Everyone stops breathing in the room.

Including me.

The lady who ran the after school program had killed herself the night before school began, three months earlier.

220 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 9:16:36pm

re: #190 freetoken

It should be noted that the Theodicy problem goes away if one does not have an omnipotent, benevolent Deity.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dystheism

221 Kragar  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 9:17:40pm

re: #217 EmmmieG

Hollywood is only repeating itself at the moment.

"If people loved it as kids, they'll shell out money to watch it again as adults."

222 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 9:18:20pm

re: #221 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

"If people loved it as kids, they'll shell out money to watch it again as adults."

Even if it's a poor imitation. Even if they had absolutely forgotten that it was not that good the first time around.

223 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 9:18:41pm

re: #215 ggt

Vocabulary Word for the Day:

Theodicy

Leibniz on the Problem of Evil

224 freetoken  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 9:19:56pm

I thought we determined that Leibniz was one of those German communists in the Baader-Meinhoff gang.

225 Obdicut  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 9:20:45pm

re: #218 austin_blue

Sincerely, the biggest common factor in people who have been abused is being reluctant to talk about it because they fear mockery, shame, disbelief, etc. So your condolences are meaningful. Even after all these years, it's still valuable to talk about it and it's still valuable to have it treated seriously.

Those who just look away from it-- like many at Penn State did-- who prefer not to confront it, are not the worst, but they're pretty bad. That response-- that there is no one to help you, and if you talk about it you'll be blamed for destroying a man's life, and everyone would prefer that you just keep quiet-- is what every child victim of pedophiles fears, and it is that fear that the pedophile takes advantage of.

I still cannot understand why the person who saw the rape, literally saw the rape, occur, didn't call the police.

226 Kragar  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 9:20:58pm

re: #222 EmmmieG

Even if it's a poor imitation. Even if they had absolutely forgotten that it was not that good the first time around.

Slap some twenty something star du jour as the star, voila! Box office gold!

227 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 9:21:02pm

over & out folks!

228 prairiefire  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 9:21:29pm

re: #204 SanFranciscoZionist

Yes, I don't think it's smart to limit God.

229 Targetpractice  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 9:21:41pm

re: #221 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

"If people loved it as kids, they'll shell out money to watch it again as adults."

I'm still waiting for the release of the new version of Red Dawn, just to see how "scary" the North Korean military is supposed to be.

230 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 9:21:51pm

re: #194 ProLifeLiberal

Glad you're still here. I thought you'd want to read this:

November 11, 2011: Pakistan recently ran a successful test of its 1.5 ton Haft VII cruise missile. This time the test was from a new, three missile transporter/erector/launcher (TEL). This TEL replaces the previous four missile launcher. The three-missile launcher was designed for "shoot and scoot." That means that the launcher can quickly launch a missile, return the missile canister to the horizontal position and move out of the area. This is because radars and other sensors can quickly spot where a missile is launched vertically, and attack the missile transporter.

With a range of 700 kilometers, Hatf VII is based on the American Tomahawk cruise missile. Pakistan collected a lot of information on Tomahawk after several of them crashed in Pakistan in 1998 during a mass cruise missile attack on al Qaeda in Afghanistan. The Hatf VII was first tested in 2005, and has been adapted for use from aircraft and ships.

231 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 9:22:08pm

I have issues with the concept of Evil. But there are situations like Penn State for which I have no other vocabulary.

It goes back to objectifying individuals. If a person becomes nothing than an object to satisfy one's desire--and one act's on that? To behave as if one is as powerful as a G-d, perhaps that is the definition of Evil.

What other word is there for Slavery?

232 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 9:22:20pm

re: #229 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

I'm still waiting for the release of the new version of Red Dawn, just to see how "scary" the North Korean military is supposed to be.

Cracked had a fun piece on the original RD, suggesting that it's actually an anti-war movie.

233 Kragar  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 9:22:41pm

re: #229 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

I'm still waiting for the release of the new version of Red Dawn, just to see how "scary" the North Korean military is supposed to be.

I refuse to watch the new version of "The Thing."

234 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 9:22:52pm

re: #224 freetoken

I thought we determined that Leibniz was one of those German communists in the Baader-Meinhoff gang.

Is that meant literally?

235 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 9:23:06pm

re: #225 Obdicut

Seriously I think it's as horribly simple as being a young coach on the rise at PSU.

236 Targetpractice  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 9:23:15pm

re: #233 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

I refuse to watch the new version of "The Thing."

It's not a new version, it's a prequel. Isn't that just as good?

//

237 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 9:23:35pm

re: #232 SanFranciscoZionist

Cracked had a fun piece on the original RD, suggesting that it's actually an anti-war movie.

ANd questioning what we did to upset Canada so badly that no one hears about the Soviets until they get to Colorado.

238 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 9:23:40pm

re: #235 Stanley Sea

Seriously I think it's as horribly simple as being a young coach on the rise at PSU.

Priorities.

239 Obdicut  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 9:25:21pm

re: #235 Stanley Sea

Seriously I think it's as horribly simple as being a young coach on the rise at PSU.

I hope not. I hope it wasn't a calculation of self-interest. I hope he was so shocked and horrified that it damn near drove him out of his mind and maybe he questioned what he'd seen or something. If he really just didn't want to make waves, that just paints such a pathetic picture of a craven coward.

240 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 9:25:33pm

re: #225 Obdicut

I still cannot understand why the person who saw the rape, literally saw the rape, occur, didn't call the police.

I've said before, I don't know if I'd be able to control my behavior enough to call the police. There are a lot of things I don't understand about that particular situation. How could a person see that and not intervene to help the child?

It was a child too young to have sexual desires that wanted gratification--correct? Not like a 16 yo with fantasy about doing it with the Coach?

I keep thinking about the latter days of Rome. The Patricians could indulge any "vice" they wanted and no one would stop them or think they were acting immorally.

241 prairiefire  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 9:25:39pm

re: #216 wlewisiii

This.

And, ultimately, I believe that if any are, then all will be. Damned if I know how how, but that's a few grades above my job description even when I'm teaching sunday school.

I feel exactly the same.

Also, I think it is part of man's arrogance to feel he is so much above his biological absolutes. Dust to dust.

242 William Barnett-Lewis  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 9:25:53pm

re: #219 SanFranciscoZionist

Oh, Edwards was fun. Weird, but fun.

What's not fun is the moment teaching sixth grade religion class, when a kid raises his hand and asks, with no reference to anything in class, "If you kill yourself, do you go to hell?"

Everyone stops breathing in the room.

Including me.

The lady who ran the after school program had killed herself the night before school began, three months earlier.

My maternal great-grandfather was a hard working man who somehow ended up in a factory making radios. He hit retirement age and didn't know what to do with himself a small number of months after I was born. I have a photo of myself as an infant in his arms. He killed himself shortly thereafter. I understand that my great-grandmother was frantic, trying to find one of the protestant cemeteries to take him when the parish priest just simply put his arm around her and said, "Trudy, don't you worry. He wasn't in his right mind. He's ok."

I've laid flowers where they are still together in that parish cemetery.

243 Kragar  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 9:26:21pm

There are a few good looking movies out on the horizon.

244 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 9:26:34pm

re: #225 Obdicut

Sincerely, the biggest common factor in people who have been abused is being reluctant to talk about it because they fear mockery, shame, disbelief, etc. So your condolences are meaningful. Even after all these years, it's still valuable to talk about it and it's still valuable to have it treated seriously.

Those who just look away from it-- like many at Penn State did-- who prefer not to confront it, are not the worst, but they're pretty bad. That response-- that there is no one to help you, and if you talk about it you'll be blamed for destroying a man's life, and everyone would prefer that you just keep quiet-- is what every child victim of pedophiles fears, and it is that fear that the pedophile takes advantage of.

I still cannot understand why the person who saw the rape, literally saw the rape, occur, didn't call the police.

That, and all manner of "ohhh he would NEVVVERRRR do something like THAT!!" knowing full well just how likely the possibility is. Girls can be blamed by perverted mothers jealous of sexual attention they think they're not getting, that really has very little to do with "sex" at all, but power over the vulnerable, whom they know will be blamed for the actions instead of the perp.

245 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 9:26:58pm

re: #237 SanFranciscoZionist

ANd questioning what we did to upset Canada so badly that no one hears about the Soviets until they get to Colorado.

Many of Canada's best troops were in Europe in the 1980's. If West Germany and France declared neutrality (as happens in Red Dawn), the US/UK/Canadian forces stationed in West Germany might have been interned.

246 Obdicut  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 9:27:37pm

re: #240 ggt

It was a ten year old boy.

Far too young for anything like mature sexual desire.

247 Targetpractice  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 9:27:41pm

re: #235 Stanley Sea

Seriously I think it's as horribly simple as being a young coach on the rise at PSU.

Somebody was pointing out on another board that Sandusky coached for 22 years at Penn State, had 10 first team All-American linebackers, and then just suddenly retired. There was even talk, just before then, that he might be considered to replace Paterno, as at the time Penn was putting pressure on JoePa to retire.

And yet, if any other teams made serious offers to Sandusky to join their coaching staff, it never made the news. Which raises the question of whether or not the truth about him was know outside Penn.

248 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 9:28:29pm

re: #242 wlewisiii

My maternal great-grandfather was a hard working man who somehow ended up in a factory making radios. He hit retirement age and didn't know what to do with himself a small number of months after I was born. I have a photo of myself as an infant in his arms. He killed himself shortly thereafter. I understand that my great-grandmother was frantic, trying to find one of the protestant cemeteries to take him when the parish priest just simply put his arm around her and said, "Trudy, don't you worry. He wasn't in his right mind. He's ok."

I've laid flowers where they are still together in that parish cemetery.

That is one argument I have heard and understand. In Western society, only a person who was not in their right mind would do it.

249 ProGunLiberal  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 9:29:08pm

re: #230 Dark_Falcon

And we all know those are pointed to India. Pakistan is getting ridiculous.

The whole reason they are so bent out of shape is the fact that India go territory that Pakistan thought they would get. And for this issue which has happened often and frequently, Pakistan has degenerated to a hell-hole.

Meanwhile, the place they attempted to kill in the 70's, Bangladesh, is doing better than they are, against all odds.

Pakistan and its degeneracy is moral lesson on hatred.

On a side note, I far more fear Pakistan than Iran. Considering they news about Pakistani nukes last week. And the fact these nukes likely have a yield of 75-136 kilotons.

250 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 9:29:11pm

re: #219 SanFranciscoZionist

Oh, Edwards was fun. Weird, but fun.

What's not fun is the moment teaching sixth grade religion class, when a kid raises his hand and asks, with no reference to anything in class, "If you kill yourself, do you go to hell?"

Everyone stops breathing in the room.

Including me.

The lady who ran the after school program had killed herself the night before school began, three months earlier.

This happened last year in my son's school with a student. Being a all boys Catholic HS, my son had the same question. My husband told him that a person who commits suicide is mentally ill. Regardless of what he was told at school (I can't remember how it was handled), our Opinion was that G-d does not condemn young people who are so severely ill. The adults in his life had a responsibility for his well being and he should have been in treatment.

251 reine.de.tout  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 9:31:03pm

re: #219 SanFranciscoZionist

Oh, Edwards was fun. Weird, but fun.

What's not fun is the moment teaching sixth grade religion class, when a kid raises his hand and asks, with no reference to anything in class, "If you kill yourself, do you go to hell?"

Everyone stops breathing in the room.

Including me.

The lady who ran the after school program had killed herself the night before school began, three months earlier.

I'm assuming you are talking about your Catholic school kids? If you're ever in that position again, here.

No one can appreciate the unimaginable pain that is the ultimate explanation for such a tragic action. No one, therefore, can judge a person whose choice we cannot fathom, whose life we can remember, but cannot restore, and whose pain we cannot understand. This is how the Church tends to look upon suicide today.

. . .
The Church still teaches that there is a hell, but leaves it to God to decide who should go there. And divine decisions, in this regard, are filtered through divine mercy. Tragedy at the end of this life is no sure sign of an eternal tragedy in the next

252 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 9:31:40pm

re: #240 ggt

I've said before, I don't know if I'd be able to control my behavior enough to call the police. There are a lot of things I don't understand about that particular situation. How could a person see that and not intervene to help the child?

It was a child too young to have sexual desires that wanted gratification--correct? Not like a 16 yo with fantasy about doing it with the Coach?

I keep thinking about the latter days of Rome. The Patricians could indulge any "vice" they wanted and no one would stop them or think they were acting immorally.

No, they were little kids. Prepubescent.

253 prairiefire  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 9:32:20pm

re: #249 ProLifeLiberal

Have you thought about applying with the State Dept. after you graduate? I think you have a natural inclination to it. No snark.

254 William Barnett-Lewis  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 9:32:34pm

Ah, Itunes, you have a sick sense of humor. The discussion turns to suicide and what comes up on shuffle but "Don't fear the Reaper"?

255 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 9:33:22pm

re: #252 SanFranciscoZionist

No, they were little kids. Prepubescent.

I really don't understand anyone who wouldn't intervene to help the child, call 911 for an ambulance and cover them with a blanket.

I'd be hugging and rocking them, probably.

If I wasn't incapacitated from "stopping" the crime.

256 Obdicut  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 9:33:24pm

re: #251 reine.de.tout

I get really weirded out by any human who thinks they 'know' that another human being is going to hell, or even that a certain action will send someone to hell. I'm not religious myself, of course, but it still seems like a radical usurpation of the role of the deity.

257 Targetpractice  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 9:33:51pm

re: #254 wlewisiii

Ah, Itunes, you have a sick sense of humor. The discussion turns to suicide and what comes up on shuffle but "Don't fear the Reaper"?

I know it's weird, but every time I hear that song, the first thing that comes to mind is the opening of the miniseries version of The Stand.

258 William Barnett-Lewis  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 9:33:56pm

re: #253 prairiefire

Have you thought about applying with the State Dept. after you graduate? I think you have a natural inclination to it. No snark.

I agree. Take the exam. We'd do well to have you there.

259 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 9:34:21pm

re: #256 Obdicut

I get really weirded out by any human who thinks they 'know' that another human being is going to hell, or even that a certain action will send someone to hell. I'm not religious myself, of course, but it still seems like a radical usurpation of the role of the deity.

We take Mastercard, Visa and American Express.

:|

260 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 9:34:25pm

re: #242 wlewisiii

My maternal great-grandfather was a hard working man who somehow ended up in a factory making radios. He hit retirement age and didn't know what to do with himself a small number of months after I was born. I have a photo of myself as an infant in his arms. He killed himself shortly thereafter. I understand that my great-grandmother was frantic, trying to find one of the protestant cemeteries to take him when the parish priest just simply put his arm around her and said, "Trudy, don't you worry. He wasn't in his right mind. He's ok."

I've laid flowers where they are still together in that parish cemetery.

Good priest.

I told the kids that I didn't think God would send anyone to hell for something they did when they were in pain, and mentally ill, and talked to them about clinical depression for a while.

Then class let out, and I ran to the middle school head, who had a degree in Catholic theology, and demanded help. He pointed me to Matthew 25.

261 ProGunLiberal  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 9:34:35pm

re: #253 prairiefire

Yeah, but the issues I've had with Autism, in addition to a squad's worth of mental disorders means I've had to struggle with school at times, especially in the first 2 years. My grade point average isn't great.

262 reine.de.tout  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 9:34:48pm

re: #256 Obdicut

I get really weirded out by any human who thinks they 'know' that another human being is going to hell, or even that a certain action will send someone to hell. I'm not religious myself, of course, but it still seems like a radical usurpation of the role of the deity.

It is indeed.
As is any proclamation by anybody that "God is on our side!".
Geez.

263 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 9:36:47pm

re: #251 reine.de.tout

I'm assuming you are talking about your Catholic school kids? If you're ever in that position again, here.

Thanks. I don't know if I'll ever teach in a classroom again, but...I sure don't want to get caught flat-footed on that one twice.

264 Obdicut  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 9:36:57pm

Alright. I'm going to carry my lovely wife from her current sleeping position on the couch to bed. Have a good night, good people.

265 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 9:37:13pm

re: #254 wlewisiii

Ah, Itunes, you have a sick sense of humor. The discussion turns to suicide and what comes up on shuffle but "Don't fear the Reaper"?

Best
song
ever

266 prairiefire  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 9:38:04pm

re: #261 ProLifeLiberal

Well, I've read how you've grown in articulating your positions on this site. I'm not sure if grades matter as much. At any rate, I think you would find D.C. a fascinating place to look for post graduate work.

267 laZardo  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 9:38:54pm

re: #254 wlewisiii

Ah, Itunes, you have a sick sense of humor. The discussion turns to suicide and what comes up on shuffle but "Don't fear the Reaper"?

Then "Burning For You" plays during a discussion on how the Arab Spring started?

268 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 9:39:58pm

Yes, it appears I am predestined to eat this entire pan of brownies.

269 Kragar  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 9:40:34pm

re: #265 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

Best
song
ever

Of course. It has cowbell.

270 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 9:40:42pm

re: #259 ggt

Hey, how is Old Puppy?

(((((Old Puppy)))))

271 ProGunLiberal  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 9:40:47pm

re: #266 prairiefire

Eh, after the experiences with my family, all I want out of life is to have a good, loving family. A family without the crap that my dad has done for many years.

272 austin_blue  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 9:41:01pm

re: #205 ggt

Truth be told, my beliefs are far more metaphysical than what is easy to discuss.

The simplistic idea of a Diety creating a species at all is really idiotic to me. But what other frame of reference do we have for our myths?

It's sad to me that we can't teach our children how to live together without "stories". But, it seems that is the way we do things as humans.

I was raised Catholic with full Baltimore Catechism CCD and daily Latin Mass. I started drifting with the whole birth control issue. In high school and college, I started reading other religious texts and about other religious traditions. At some point, I realized that there hundreds of different "chosen people" out there, all with different beliefs.

After college, I went to pilot training in the Air Force. I got to fly into some gawd-awful places. Africa, the Middle East, Asia. I saw shit that didn't conform with my concept of a kind and active God. Why the pain, the disease, the starvation, the brutality? Certainly these people prayed for relief every day! Who wouldn't? They beseeched their God to heal them, their families, their children. If God was listening, he had a ready answer for the vast majority of them:

NO.

I have since decided, if only for the reason that it gives God an out, that our Deity is not, in fact, active in this world. He created our Universe and basically said:

"That is the weak force, the strong force, gravity, and the speed of light that is the basis of the physics of this cosmos. Oh, and by the way, some of this creation will be conducive to life and its eventual evolution. Good luck. I'm off to create other Univereses. Oh, and keep in mind that you have a soul that informs you of the Divine. A little gift from me."

So I believe that we are on our own and that the only Grace we will gain in this life is the good works we do for each other. Praying is pointless. Working together to make us better humans is the Divine.

273 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 9:41:13pm

re: #254 wlewisiii

Ah, Itunes, you have a sick sense of humor. The discussion turns to suicide and what comes up on shuffle but "Don't fear the Reaper"?

love me some BOC!

274 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 9:42:29pm

re: #271 ProLifeLiberal

Eh, after the experiences with my family, all I want out of life is to have a good, loving family. A family without the crap that my dad has done for many years.

Yeah, I know what you mean. I've given up on that idea, personally.

275 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 9:44:09pm

re: #265 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

Best
song
ever

it really is *_*


Though i'm also partial to Imaginos:

276 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 9:45:34pm

What I find so frustrating about this is that with all the education, Oprah shows and resources we've put towards empowering kids in these situations, the victims still did not come forward. Or even tell their parents.

OMG, if my kid didn't tell us, I don't know how I'd handle it. We talked about it several times over the years and the only message we wanted to get thru was that We were always on his side, no matter what. Not to believe what a perpatrator might say about killing us or whatever they say.

277 Kragar  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 9:45:47pm

They're remaking Total Recall.

STOP DOING THAT!

278 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 9:46:44pm

re: #277 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

They're remaking Total Recall.

STOP DOING THAT!

QUAAAAAIIIIDDDD

279 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 9:46:46pm

re: #270 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

Hey, how is Old Puppy?

(((Old Puppy)))

Seems to be much better. Never got to the Vet. He made a turn for the better, and seems to be fine today.

Hoping it keeps up. He is back on solid food and doing fine.

Thanks for asking!

280 ProGunLiberal  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 9:47:32pm

I found an oddity on Wikipedia about Baluchistan in Pakistan:

The largest city, Quetta is the summer capital while Gwadar, the port city located in the south-west, serves as the winter capital.

I've heard of separate Capital Cities for various Branches of Government. South Africa has the situation where each Branch is in a different city, leading to three Capitals, or other cases Wikipedia has listed here.

But I haven't heard of different capitals for different seasons. What happened in this case?

281 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 9:48:44pm

re: #275 WindUpBird

Backup singers, ftw

282 Targetpractice  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 9:49:05pm

re: #277 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

They're remaking Total Recall.

STOP DOING THAT!

With Colin Farrell playing the lead. Now, no offense to the man, but Arnold of the original movie could have broken him in half with one hand while making a martini with the other.

283 Digital Display  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 9:49:31pm

Hi Lizards
The Penn State scandal is beyond me...
This is the only song I've found so far that helps somewhat..

284 William Barnett-Lewis  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 9:50:00pm

re: #261 ProLifeLiberal

Yeah, but the issues I've had with Autism, in addition to a squad's worth of mental disorders means I've had to struggle with school at times, especially in the first 2 years. My grade point average isn't great.

That's one of the reasons for the foreign service exam. It lets people get beyond their problems. Look into taking it. The State Department needs the best it can get even if they're a little eccentric :D

285 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 9:50:09pm

re: #281 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

I WORE OUT my cassette copy of Fire of Unknown Origin :D

286 William Barnett-Lewis  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 9:50:36pm

re: #267 laZardo

Then "Burning For You" plays during a discussion on how the Arab Spring started?

OY!

287 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 9:50:47pm

re: #280 ProLifeLiberal

I found an oddity on Wikipedia about Baluchistan in Pakistan:

I've heard of separate Capital Cities for various Branches of Government. South Africa has the situation where each Branch is in a different city, leading to three Capitals, or other cases Wikipedia has listed here.

But I haven't heard of different capitals for different seasons. What happened in this case?

It's actually something that existed in several countries, usually ones with extreme summer or winter weather in significant cities. A holdover from the days when the government followed the ruler's court around.

These days, less common, because air conditioning and central heating.

But if you search 'summer capital', you'll see some examples.

288 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 9:50:49pm

re: #279 ggt

Seems to be much better. Never got to the Vet. He made a turn for the better, and seems to be fine today.

Hoping it keeps up. He is back on solid food and doing fine.

Thanks for asking!

I still must snap a picture of Big Puppy. I saw her today. She is so precious. Everybody calls her Big Puppy, now :D

289 Kragar  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 9:51:06pm

re: #282 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

With Colin Farrell playing the lead. Now, no offense to the man, but Arnold of the original movie could have broken him in half with one hand while making a martini with the other.

Plus Ethan Hawke, but they don't name a Richter in the cast.

290 laZardo  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 9:51:33pm

re: #272 austin_blue

I prefer to think we're all really "in this" for our own gratification. Material or emotional.

291 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 9:51:45pm

re: #272 austin_blue

So I believe that we are on our own and that the only Grace we will gain in this life is the good works we do for each other. Praying is pointless. Working together to make us better humans is the Divine.

I don't think Prayer is pointless. I just think it's purpose isn't to ask for anything, but to put us in a state to accept what comes. It's a form of meditation to me.

I have issues with the doing good works. I've met too many people who do so as means to exercise power over others and then want to claim some martyr prize for it. There is a fine line between helping and caretaking.

Shall, I say that I think we gain Grace by not adding to the world's problems and trying to live as best we can at peace with ourselves. I think one's inner turmoil or lack of it has more to do with how we treat others than anything else.

292 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 9:52:09pm

re: #285 WindUpBird

[[[guilty pleasure]]]

293 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 9:53:09pm

re: #292 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

Had Club Ninja too, oh yes :D

Perfect Water and their cover of White Flags, ee *_*

294 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 9:53:28pm

re: #288 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

I still must snap a picture of Big Puppy. I saw her today. She is so precious. Everybody calls her Big Puppy, now :D

I was thinking about that the other day. I was wondering if you did it and I missed-it.

295 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 9:54:16pm

re: #249 ProLifeLiberal

And we all know those are pointed to India. Pakistan is getting ridiculous.

The whole reason they are so bent out of shape is the fact that India go territory that Pakistan thought they would get. And for this issue which has happened often and frequently, Pakistan has degenerated to a hell-hole.

Meanwhile, the place they attempted to kill in the 70's, Bangladesh, is doing better than they are, against all odds.

Pakistan and its degeneracy is moral lesson on hatred.

On a side note, I far more fear Pakistan than Iran. Considering they news about Pakistani nukes last week. And the fact these nukes likely have a yield of 75-136 kilotons.

The higher end of that is about 12.5 times more powerful than Fat Man (which was about 20 KT). Enough to cut the heart out of a city. And those Tomahawk derivatives they are using are hard to see till they get close. Pakistan with nuclear Tomahawk missiles is like Under Siege in real life, only the hero has gotten pudgy and turned to reality TV.

/Sorry, but I couldn't pass up the Segal joke.

296 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 9:54:24pm

re: #290 laZardo

I prefer to think we're all really "in this" for our own gratification. Material or emotional.

I go with the hedonist point of view myself. You know, that works in weird ways. Like sacrificing your life for that of your child's . . .

297 William Barnett-Lewis  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 9:54:55pm

re: #275 WindUpBird

it really is *_*

Though i'm also partial to Imaginos:

[Video]

If I get to choose a song, I'll take Astronomy.

298 prairiefire  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 9:55:26pm

re: #291 ggt

"I say that I think we gain Grace by not adding to the world's problems and trying to live as best we can at peace with ourselves. I think one's inner turmoil or lack of it has more to do with how we treat others than anything else."

Excellent insight.

299 Targetpractice  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 9:56:24pm

re: #289 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Plus Ethan Hawke, but they don't name a Richter in the cast.

Total Recall's like the most recent 80's movie I've heard that was either rumored or confirmed to be getting remade/"rebooted." But so far, most have ended up in development hell, like Robocop. Though I hear the Short Circuit remake is back on track.

It's sad because I grew up watching a lot of 80s films as a kid in the early 90s, and now I'm watching what was essentially my childhood be run through the modern Hollywood wringer.

300 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 9:57:05pm

re: #297 wlewisiii

If I get to choose a song, I'll take Astronomy.

[Video]

I prefer Chemistry

301 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 9:57:16pm

re: #297 wlewisiii

yay :D

There's so much good BOC!

Moorcock FTW

302 ProGunLiberal  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 9:57:45pm

re: #287 SanFranciscoZionist

I have been enlightened on this. Thanks.

Also, I just noticed this on Wikipedia.

The selection or founding of a "neutral" capital city — i.e. one unencumbered by regional or political identities — was meant to represent the unity of a new state when Ankara, Turkey; Bern, Switzerland; Canberra, Australia; Madrid; Ottawa, Ontario; Washington, D.C.; and Wellington, New Zealand became capital cities. Sometimes, the location of a new capital city was chosen to terminate squabbling or possible squabbling between various entities, such as in the cases of Canberra, Ottawa, Washington, and Wellington.

I kind of find it funny that all four of us (US, Canada, Australia, and New Zealand) ended up having the same fight about Capital Cities, all solved the same way. It's Scions of Britain Club. Although one of these nations surpassed Britain. :P

303 William Barnett-Lewis  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 9:59:17pm

re: #292 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

[[[guilty pleasure]]]

[Video]

Heh. This probably quals for my wife as it's the only BOC track on my mixes she won't make me skip:

304 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 10:00:41pm

re: #303 wlewisiii

Heh. This probably quals for my wife as it's the only BOC track on my mixes she won't make me skip:

[Video]

SHE MAKES YOU SKIP BOC TRACKS! WTF

Sorry but that is just wrong!

305 William Barnett-Lewis  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 10:01:14pm

re: #300 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

I prefer Chemistry

[Video]

Till I clicked I presumed it was going to be Semi-sonic. Heh.

306 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 10:01:36pm

Fu Manchu covers Godzilla in the doomiest tradition

nothing but fuzz *_*

307 ProGunLiberal  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 10:02:40pm

re: #295 Dark_Falcon

My big worry is that one of these nukes that we now know isn't well guarded get jacked by a bunch of numbnut extremists, and is driven into somewhere that has had a gripe with the Taliban or the Sunni Radicals, and isn't Properly Paranoid (Like our nation, Israel, or India).

As much as I despise the government of Iran, I would prefer to not have a mushroom cloud over Tehran.

308 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 10:02:55pm

re: #306 WindUpBird

That IS some serious fuzz, dang!

309 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 10:05:17pm

re: #308 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

GENTLEMEN, DEPLOY THE BIG MUFF

310 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 10:05:22pm

re: #302 ProLifeLiberal

I have been enlightened on this. Thanks.

Also, I just noticed this on Wikipedia.

I kind of find it funny that all four of us (US, Canada, Australia, and New Zealand) ended up having the same fight about Capital Cities, all solved the same way. It's Scions of Britain Club. Although one of these nations surpassed Britain. :P

Brazil ended up doing this after World War II, building a new capital city of Brasília in the late 1950's to ensure a fairer division of national resources.

311 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 10:05:49pm

re: #302 ProLifeLiberal

I have been enlightened on this. Thanks.

Also, I just noticed this on Wikipedia.

I kind of find it funny that all four of us (US, Canada, Australia, and New Zealand) ended up having the same fight about Capital Cities, all solved the same way. It's Scions of Britain Club. Although one of these nations surpassed Britain. :P

It's probably got to do with the long tradition of democracy (in some form) in the British tradition. None of the Scions of Britain ever went in for there being a dictator who determined where the capital would damn well be. We do things by some form of consensus. So we fight.

312 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 10:06:33pm

re: #307 ProLifeLiberal

My big worry is that one of these nukes that we now know isn't well guarded get jacked by a bunch of numbnut extremists, and is driven into somewhere that has had a gripe with the Taliban or the Sunni Radicals, and isn't Properly Paranoid (Like our nation, Israel, or India).

As much as I despise the government of Iran, I would prefer to not have a mushroom cloud over Tehran.

That would be especially bad with these new TELs. They are harder to spot prior to firing.

313 goddamnedfrank  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 10:06:41pm
Mitt Romney suggested on Friday that he was open to introducing “private sector competition” into the health care system U.S. military veterans receive.

At a campaign event in South Carolina, Romney raised the possibility of a voucher system.

“If you’re the government, they know there’s nowhere else you guys can go, you’re stuck,” Romney told a group of veterans at Mutt’s BBQ restaurant here. “Sometimes you wonder if there would be some way to introduce private sector competition, somebody else who could come in and say each solder has ‘X’ thousand dollars attributed to them and then they can choose where they want to go in the government system or the private system with the money that follows them.”

314 ProGunLiberal  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 10:08:27pm

This is the story that scares me.

I'm afraid of one these getting nabbed, and...well, you can figure out the rest.

315 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 10:08:48pm

re: #313 goddamnedfrank

Mitt Romney suggested on Friday that he was open to introducing “private sector competition” into the health care system U.S. military veterans receive.

And that's the GOP's best hope to beat Obama.

e_e is he TRYING to lose?

316 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 10:09:17pm

re: #313 goddamnedfrank

That would only work for veterans (active duty soldiers get coverage at far below market cost), but its not an idea to despise.

317 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 10:09:50pm

re: #313 goddamnedfrank

UGGGGHHHHH

318 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 10:10:01pm

re: #316 Dark_Falcon

That would only work for veterans (active duty soldiers get coverage at far below market cost), but its not an idea to despise.

As long as you're not a veteran yourself, sure.

319 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 10:10:57pm

There is so much one could say about this.

Dutch diocese gives priest an ultimatum: Your lady or your job: City Press: International: News

83 year old Priest in a 46 year long relationship with an 85 year old woman. And they are now telling him to make a choice?

320 austin_blue  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 10:11:33pm

re: #307 ProLifeLiberal

My big worry is that one of these nukes that we now know isn't well guarded get jacked by a bunch of numbnut extremists, and is driven into somewhere that has had a gripe with the Taliban or the Sunni Radicals, and isn't Properly Paranoid (Like our nation, Israel, or India).

As much as I despise the government of Iran, I would prefer to not have a mushroom cloud over Tehran.

Hard drive to the US without an AquaCar.

And a mushroom cloud over Tehran would kill many more victims than bad guys.

If you want to shut down Iranian enrichment of uranium that exceeds that necessary for electricity generation, then just knock out the facilities (and we know exactly where they are) that are capable of doing so. This is why we made B-2s, KC-135Rs, and based long range fighters in Afghanistan.

Duh.

321 William Barnett-Lewis  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 10:11:40pm

re: #304 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

SHE MAKES YOU SKIP BOC TRACKS! WTF

Sorry but that is just wrong!

We all have our pluses and minuses. As we close in on 20 years, the simple fact that she hasn't kicked my ass out far outweighs any foibles about my music. There are far too many other minutes in my life where I can listen to anything I want to.

And she's become a Husker Du fan. One track from New Day Rising equals 3 from Fire of Unknown Origin... Yes. I am serious.

322 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 10:12:00pm

re: #318 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

As long as you're not a veteran yourself, sure.

If its done right, it would help decrease rising costs by introducing competition. It's an idea for how to contain costs without slashing benefits

323 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 10:13:08pm

re: #322 Dark_Falcon

If its done right, it would help decrease rising costs by introducing competition. It's an idea for how to contain costs without slashing benefits

That just sounds like some pablum copy/pasted off of heritage.org.

324 ProGunLiberal  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 10:14:11pm

re: #320 austin_blue

The Sunni radicals despise Shias. In 1999, the Taliban slaughtered thousands of Shia in the city of Mazar-i-Sharif. I could easily see a radical group deciding to go and commit an atrocity like this if they got a nuke.

325 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 10:15:15pm

I knew about the Navajo code talkers but I had forgotten that they had been prohibited from using their language once. Borders on genocidal, to me.

By the way, Simon Singh's The Code Book: The Evolution of Secrecy from Mary, Queen of Scots to Quantum Cryptography is a pretty cool book.

326 William Barnett-Lewis  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 10:17:43pm

re: #285 WindUpBird

I WORE OUT my cassette copy of Fire of Unknown Origin :D

Just saw this. Growing up I wore out 4 copies of "Who's Next". 2 before I became a punk or had even heard of the Clash.

I am only alive today because of The Who.

327 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 10:18:13pm

re: #310 Dark_Falcon

Brazil ended up doing this after World War II, building a new capital city of Brasília in the late 1950's to ensure a fairer division of national resources.

But IIRC, Brasilia totally failed to work as a city, and ended up largely unpopulated.

328 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 10:19:00pm

re: #327 SanFranciscoZionist

But IIRC, Brasilia totally failed to work as a city, and ended up largely unpopulated.

I dunno. Wikipedia says it has over 4 million people.

329 Dancing along the light of day  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 10:19:31pm

re: #268 EmmmieG

Yes, it appears I am predestined to eat this entire pan of brownies.

LOL! Show some self-restraint, young lady!

330 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 10:19:44pm

re: #319 ggt

There is so much one could say about this.

83 year old Priest in a 46 year long relationship with an 85 year old woman. And they are now telling him to make a choice?

Have they considered that if they can just hold on for another twenty years, the problem is almost certain to have solved itself?

331 ProGunLiberal  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 10:20:17pm

re: #327 SanFranciscoZionist

It's only 6th largest in the nation of Brazil now, but has 2.5 million people living in the combined metro area.

No worse than Washington D.C., really.

332 William Barnett-Lewis  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 10:20:42pm

re: #325 000G

I knew about the Navajo code talkers but I had forgotten that they had been prohibited from using their language once. Borders on genocidal, to me.

By the way, Simon Singh's The Code Book: The Evolution of Secrecy from Mary, Queen of Scots to Quantum Cryptography is a pretty cool book.

No boarders. It was, intentionally, genocidal. Until there was a reason to keep it they were intent on destroying every last little bit of their people and their culture.

America needs to be scared of the concept of karma...

333 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 10:20:58pm

re: #328 Dark_Falcon

I dunno. Wikipedia says it has over 4 million people.

Maybe it did work out then. I recall seeing a video of this abandoned, crumbling mess, in an architecture class.

334 goddamnedfrank  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 10:21:19pm

re: #316 Dark_Falcon

That would only work for veterans (active duty soldiers get coverage at far below market cost), but its not an idea to despise.

It robs funds from the VA rather than just funding it properly. Selling veterans on vouchers is a pretty despicable thing to do on Veteran's Day.

re: #322 Dark_Falcon

If its done right, it would help decrease rising costs by introducing competition. It's an idea for how to contain costs without slashing benefits

Um, the VA's cost per service would increase because funds that would normally go to them would go elsewhere. The idea that competition always lowers rates is dogma, antithetical to reality in cases where the government is asked to fund its own competition while maintaining the same level of service as before.

335 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 10:23:03pm

re: #333 SanFranciscoZionist

Maybe it did work out then. I recall seeing a video of this abandoned, crumbling mess, in an architecture class.

Romania, maybe? I'm sure parts of Brasilia didn't work, so you could still be right on the location.

336 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 10:23:37pm

re: #325 000G

I knew about the Navajo code talkers but I had forgotten that they had been prohibited from using their language once. Borders on genocidal, to me.

It was part of it, yeah. Really deliberate.

You've probably heard of Carlisle Indian School, one of the most notorious of the boarding schools.

[Link: www.npr.org...]

Led to this - Indian Child Welfare Act. Oh, we'll hear the bigots gripe and groan and label this "government programs", yet they're utterly silent about "government programs" like smallpox blankets and forced assimilation.

337 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 10:25:10pm

re: #334 goddamnedfrank

It robs funds from the VA rather than just funding it properly. Selling veterans on vouchers is a pretty despicable thing to do on Veteran's Day.

re: #322 Dark_Falcon

Um, the VA's cost per service would increase because funds that would normally go to them would go elsewhere. The idea that competition always lowers rates is dogma, antithetical to reality in cases where the government is asked to fund its own competition while maintaining the same level of service as before.

"Despicable" is the nice word. More like sociopathic.

338 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 10:26:19pm

re: #332 wlewisiii

I like to differentiate between things like genocide with people getting murdered on the one hand and "cultural genocide"/"culturecide" on the other.

339 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 10:27:52pm

re: #334 goddamnedfrank

It robs funds from the VA rather than just funding it properly. Selling veterans on vouchers is a pretty despicable thing to do on Veteran's Day.

re: #322 Dark_Falcon

Um, the VA's cost per service would increase because funds that would normally go to them would go elsewhere. The idea that competition always lowers rates is dogma, antithetical to reality in cases where the government is asked to fund its own competition while maintaining the same level of service as before.

I said "if", Frank. I didn't endorse the idea. Be a little less quick to go after me, won't you?

But also, if some of the patients went elsewhere, couldn't VA institutions reduce there staffing levels to meet the reduced patient load?

340 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 10:29:54pm

re: #339 Dark_Falcon

I said "if", Frank. I didn't endorse the idea.

Give it time.

But also, if some of the patients went elsewhere, couldn't VA institutions reduce there staffing levels to meet the reduced patient load?

Lol "elsewhere". Like the ER. Well, that'll give the tea party something else to bellyache about, anyway e_e

341 William Barnett-Lewis  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 10:29:58pm

re: #338 000G

I like to differentiate between things like genocide on the one hand and "cultural genocide"/"culturecide" on the other.

Intellectually I understand the difference. As a practical matter though, it's all the same here in the USA.

342 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 10:30:44pm

re: #334 goddamnedfrank

OT but after all these months on LGF, I still laugh every time I see your screen name LOL!

343 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 10:32:24pm

re: #321 wlewisiii

We all have our pluses and minuses. As we close in on 20 years, the simple fact that she hasn't kicked my ass out far outweighs any foibles about my music. There are far too many other minutes in my life where I can listen to anything I want to.

And she's become a Husker Du fan. One track from New Day Rising equals 3 from Fire of Unknown Origin... Yes. I am serious.

Well, there you go. That's a way to work it!

344 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 10:34:02pm

re: #341 wlewisiii

Intellectually I understand the difference. As a practical matter though, it's all the same here in the USA.

They were murdering Navajos into the 20th century?

345 ProGunLiberal  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 10:37:35pm

re: #324 ProLifeLiberal

I would like to say that, at this point, I would be for Balochistan breaking off of Pakistan. They have been treated badly by the central government for decades.

346 goddamnedfrank  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 10:39:06pm

Why do conservatives always think adding a middleman is the way to save money and increase efficiency?

re: #339 Dark_Falcon

But also, if some of the patients went elsewhere, couldn't VA institutions reduce there staffing levels to meet the reduced patient load?

LOL, yes, cut staff, that's how you run an efficient system. All those empty rooms and infrastructure will just pay for themselves. And of course none of the staff that's cut will ever be in critical fields like say oncology. "Hey sorry, we had a guy on staff here that was really good at diagnosing and treating cancers but now since were running lean we have to outsource that kind of work. Here Sgt. take this voucher and God bless you on your journey."

347 William Barnett-Lewis  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 10:42:22pm

re: #344 000G

They were murdering Navajos into the 20th century?

How tight do you want to define murder? Basically making life so hellish that drinking yourself to death counts for me. Taking your children away for no reason to be raised as white with no knowledge of their tribal identity does too. Setting up legal jurisdictions such that in Minnesota and Oklahoma there are several reservations where white men can rape indian women and not need to worry about ever being arrested also works.

Yeah, the whites are still murdering the natives in the 20th & 21st centuries.

348 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 10:43:45pm

re: #346 goddamnedfrank

Why do conservatives always think adding a middleman is the way to save money and increase efficiency?

Dick Armey at ArbeitFrei/Work-for-Free says so on the internet. So it must be trooo. e_e

LOL, yes, cut staff, that's how you run an efficient system. All those empty rooms and infrastructure will just pay for themselves. And of course non of the staff that's cut will ever be in critical fields like say oncology. "Hey sorry, we had a guy on staff here that was really good at diagnosing and treating cancers but now since were running lean we have to outsource that kind of work. Here Sgt. take this voucher and God bless you on your journey."

Take it to the church, and pray to Doctor Jesus for your healing!

And don't forget to turn off the lights when you leave, you SUCKER!

349 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 10:44:35pm

re: #187 Atlas Fails

That whole doctrine always seemed especially screwy to me. Why would a benevolent God create lesser beings that were, by design, inherently flawed, and then selectively punish them for...being inherently flawed. This applies not only to free will vs. predestination, but also the concept of original sin. Glad I'm not a theology major.

Original sin doesn't mean that G'd punishes selectively. Quite the opposite, really: Everybody is condemned to hell already, from the get-go. All of humanity is punished for Adam's sin. You could make the argument, then, that G'd saves selectively, and that has indeed always been a big topic regarding grace, baptism, free will, etc. My favorite schizophrenical episode: Jacob & Esau.

350 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 10:44:44pm

re: #340 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

Congratulations, you win the Jerk Award!

351 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 10:44:54pm

OMG! Lizard Dog People

You have to watch this 14+minute video when you have a chance. The dog features is sooooo cute. And the result of good breeding and some pretty exhaustive training.

Dogs are pretty much like children, IMHO. The will learn what you can teach them. It's a matter of figuring out how to communicate what you want.

Food usually helps with both --LOL

352 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 10:46:05pm

re: #347 wlewisiii

How tight do you want to define murder?

As tight as it normally is defined. I see no sense in throwing all various offenses together.

353 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 10:46:21pm

re: #330 SanFranciscoZionist

Have they considered that if they can just hold on for another twenty years, the problem is almost certain to have solved itself?

Priest told the Church to stuff it.

354 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 10:48:04pm

re: #350 Dark_Falcon

Congratulations, you win the Jerk Award!

Whatever, as you suggest to veterans they go "elsewhere" for healthcare.

355 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 10:49:51pm

re: #346 goddamnedfrank

Why do conservatives always think adding a middleman is the way to save money and increase efficiency?

LOL, yes, cut staff, that's how you run an efficient system. All those empty rooms and infrastructure will just pay for themselves. And of course none of the staff that's cut will ever be in critical fields like say oncology. "Hey sorry, we had a guy on staff here that was really good at diagnosing and treating cancers but now since were running lean we have to outsource that kind of work. Here Sgt. take this voucher and God bless you on your journey."

Outsourcing via vouchers was something Romney was floating as a idea. He wasn't making it a campaign plank, nor was he trying to reduce access to care. He was thinking about ways to reduce military health care costs, and that does need action. Such health care costs are rising at an unsustainable rate. Outsourcing might, and I emphasize might, be a way to cut costs without leaving veterans who need care in a bind.

356 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 10:52:00pm

re: #354 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

Whatever, as you suggest to veterans they go "elsewhere" for healthcare.

I was trying to think through how an idea could be made to work, I was not being cruel or evil and I intensely oppose any idea that I was so being.

357 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 10:52:49pm

re: #355 Dark_Falcon

Outsourcing via vouchers was something Romney was floating as a idea. He wasn't making it a campaign plank, nor was he trying to reduce access to care. He was thinking about ways to reduce military health care costs, and that does need action. Such health care costs are rising at an unsustainable rate. Outsourcing might, and I emphasize might, be a way to cut costs without leaving veterans who need care in a bind.

And when the vets protest, call out the military.

/ < -- not even necessary for those who know the reference

358 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 10:54:36pm

re: #356 Dark_Falcon

I was trying to think through how an idea could be made to work, I was not being cruel or evil and I intensely oppose any idea that I was so being.

I don't believe in "evil". Oppose what I said or don't, who cares, but cutting off healthcare for those who sacrifice like no others is chickenhawk behavior.

359 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 10:55:09pm

re: #351 ggt

got link?

360 William Barnett-Lewis  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 10:58:56pm

re: #355 Dark_Falcon

Sorry DF, but every time I hear anyone in the GOP talk about privatization or vouchers or the like, I know I am about to have my wallet raped.

The real solution is simple. Appropriate progressive taxes on all levels of American society. At minimum - yes minimum - at the levels of the Reagan Presidency. Far better at the levels of Kennedy's last year.

The 1% have been living on the sweat of the 99% for three decades now. It's time for them to return the favor, even if it's as minimally as I'm proposing. It's time for them to pay their fair share - to live as citizens rather than as oligarchs.

361 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 11:00:23pm

re: #358 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

A voucher is not a cut-off. Have another downding for your mischaracterization and your partisanship induced refusal to see any idea from any conservative as something other than diabolical.

And you're on Auto-GAZE for the foreseeable future.

362 Kragar  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 11:00:51pm

re: #360 wlewisiii

Sorry DF, but every time I hear anyone in the GOP talk about privatization or vouchers or the like, I know I am about to have my wallet raped.

I know someones getting a kick back to screw over people and force them into the system.

363 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 11:01:35pm

re: #359 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

got link?

(yes)

Link

364 palomino  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 11:03:06pm

re: #361 Dark_Falcon

A voucher is not a cut-off. Have another downding for your mischaracterization and your partisanship induced refusal to see any idea from any conservative as something other than diabolical.

And you're on Auto-GAZE for the foreseeable future.

Is that like Double Secret Probation?

I just had to ask.

365 goddamnedfrank  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 11:03:16pm

re: #355 Dark_Falcon

Outsourcing via vouchers was something Romney was floating as a idea.

Yeah, on Veteran's Day. The fact that you're trying to mitigate and make apologies for him indicates even you grasp how utterly tone deaf this came off.

He wasn't making it a campaign plank, nor was he trying to reduce access to care. He was thinking about ways to reduce military health care costs, and that does need action. Such health care costs are rising at an unsustainable rate.

And why is that? Would it have anything to do with the tens of thousands of soldiers that were wounded in the two wars Bush started? Might lowering taxes and keeping those wars off the books and out of the official budgets not have helped the situation? You might want to cogitate on the fact that we're talking about tons of people with traumatic brain injuries, or who will be needing state of the art prosthetic limbs for the rest of their lives. Only an idiot would have thought that was going to be cheap going in.

Outsourcing might, and I emphasize might, be a way to cut costs without leaving veterans who need care in a bind.

How, how does introducing a private market middleman who has to make a profit reduce costs? Faith in your ideology and raw assertions do not interest me, I want you to argue how that actual mechanism is supposed to function in the real world.

366 laZardo  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 11:03:19pm

re: #360 wlewisiii

And less wars for them to conscript 18-year-olds to die off for.

There might not be a draft, but the media glamorizes it all the same.

367 William Barnett-Lewis  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 11:04:22pm

Gotta crash. Later folks.

368 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 11:05:53pm

Mee too!

Night all.

369 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 11:06:33pm

re: #361 Dark_Falcon

A voucher is not a cut-off. Have another downding for your mischaracterization and your partisanship induced refusal to see any idea from any conservative as something other than diabolical.

Lol you complain about this, often, Mr. Permagaze. I already told you I don't believe in "evil", and don't see pathological behavior like cutting services to vets as "diabolical", either.

If you were really secure in your flimsy, parroted beliefs, you would not need some random person on the internet like me -- a direct target of conservatism -- to validate them, ever.

370 William Barnett-Lewis  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 11:07:29pm

re: #366 laZardo

And less wars for them to conscript 18-year-olds to die off for.

There might not be a draft, but the media glamorizes it all the same.

It's easy to stop war - draft everyone. When Mr. Congresscritter's beloved son is in the Infantry like I was I can guarantee they will only go after the real deal.

G'night.

371 laZardo  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 11:09:13pm

re: #365 goddamnedfrank

And why is that? Would it have anything to do with the tens of thousands of soldiers that were wounded in the two wars Bush started? Might lowering taxes and keeping those wars off the books and out of the official budgets not have helped the situation? You might want to cogitate on the fact that we're talking about tons of people with traumatic brain injuries, or who will be needing state of the art prosthetic limbs for the rest of their lives. Only an idiot thought that was going to be cheap going in.

This is why I refuse to commemorate Veterans' Day, however little of it there is left in this timezone. We're sending tens of thousands to kill off millions and then bring their maimed but alive bodies back to cut them off. All in the name of securing economic interests under the shabby facade of "protecting human rights."

This is not something worth commemorating.

372 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 11:10:33pm

re: #364 palomino

Is that like Double Secret Probation?

I just had to ask.

I know. It's hilarious.

Butthurt cons, e_e

373 laZardo  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 11:17:48pm

re: #370 wlewisiii

It's easy to stop war - draft everyone. When Mr. Congresscritter's beloved son is in the Infantry like I was I can guarantee they will only go after the real deal.

G'night.

Conscription only works if there is a constant existential threat to the country doing it. South Korea does it due to the threat from Kim Jong-Il. Singapore's National Service is due to the threat from Malaysia or Indonesia.

It requires a state of endless war or near-war...which perhaps is what we're going to settle into soon. This article is from 2007, but it shows the Congresscritters' children actually going out to fight. And does it ever improve their image to have a war hero kid.

374 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 11:18:02pm

re: #371 laZardo

This is why I refuse to commemorate Veterans' Day, however little of it there is left in this timezone. We're sending tens of thousands to kill off millions and then bring their maimed but alive bodies back to cut them off. All in the name of securing economic interests under the shabby facade of "protecting human rights."

This is not something worth commemorating.

Well, you're talking about people so cut off, they spare no expense in sending other people's children to kill, die, and come back with near-lethal injuries and NEVER have to go, themselves.

They'll slather this behavior over with flagwaving, loud proclamations of patriotism and of course questioning your and my patriotism, while veterans are supposed come back home to cut services and "go elsewhere" for your healthcare, government dependent parasite/general-issue, so "we" can save a few pennies a year.

If anyone deserves the spitting-on-vets metaphor...

375 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 11:18:32pm

AAAAAAAAA CYNIC ON NPR RAD [Link: www.npr.org...]

I love this band :D :D

376 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 11:18:52pm

don't mind me it's metal time

377 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 11:23:53pm

re: #361 Dark_Falcon

your partisanship induced refusal

Sounds like a good band name.

378 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 11:25:32pm

re: #377 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

Sounds like a good band name.

Too clunky. I preferred "Vietnam Butt Shrapnel".

379 Mocking Jay  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 11:27:15pm

To those people who supported the wars: shut the fuck up and accept the costs.

380 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 11:28:24pm

re: #365 goddamnedfrank

And why is that? Would it have anything to do with the tens of thousands of soldiers that were wounded in the two wars Bush started? Might lowering taxes and keeping those wars off the books and out of the official budgets not have helped the situation? You might want to cogitate on the fact that we're talking about tons of people with traumatic brain injuries, or who will be needing state of the art prosthetic limbs for the rest of their lives. Only an idiot would have thought that was going to be cheap going in.

War-happy conservatives see all others as perfectly expendable. Some of these people act like veterans are expendable hashmarks and not even fellow human beings.

But hey, we got to use some of those billion-dollar bombs made by friends of the president, woohoo.

/barf

381 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 11:30:11pm

re: #378 SanFranciscoZionist

Too clunky. I preferred "Vietnam Butt Shrapnel".

Oh yeah, that one was tops.

Or the butt kitty picture.

Different topic - I am STILL laughing at Emmmie's #268. omg, that was funny.

382 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 11:30:59pm

re: #381 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

Oh yeah, that one was tops.

Or the butt kitty picture.

Different topic - I am STILL laughing at Emmmie's #268. omg, that was funny.

I didn't want to tell her, but the elect have self-control about brownies.

383 Targetpractice  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 11:31:07pm

re: #373 laZardo

Conscription only works if there is a constant existential threat to the country doing it. South Korea does it due to the threat from Kim Jong-Il. Singapore's National Service is due to the threat from Malaysia or Indonesia.

It requires a state of endless war or near-war...which perhaps is what we're going to settle into soon. This article is from 2007, but it shows the Congresscritters' children actually going out to fight. And does it ever improve their image to have a war hero kid.

We're approaching a state of perpetual war because we are a nation that seems to view war as the answer to all foreign policy problems. A country refuses to dance to our tune, we wave heavy ordinance at them and tell them to fall in line. An ally starts getting cold feet over our demands of them, we just happen to send a carrier to one of their ports. And when domestic problems gets such that the natives get restless, we orchestrate a foreign policy issue that involves us blowing the bejesus out of another country while folks back home rally 'round the flag.

Here we are, getting out of Iraq and finishing up in Libya, and already the war drums have begun to get louder for "action" to be taken against Iran. The warhawks are already making noises that if we won't do it, Israel will, even if we'll share the blame.

384 Jimmi the Grey  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 11:32:20pm

re: #273 WindUpBird

love me some BOC!

[Video]

Had a GM back in the mid '80s that based an entire Traveller campaign on that song. Zhodani Empire at war with XD invading force.

Edit: should read inspired, not based.

385 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 11:33:18pm

re: #379 JasonA

To those people who supported the wars: shut the fuck up and accept the costs.

Collective personal responsibility. //

386 Mocking Jay  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 11:35:39pm

Dear Dark_Falcon,

You are the biggest supporter of the military industrial complex on this board. Every time one of us asks if a reduction in defense spending is possible, your answer is a resounding "hell no."

This, the actual human cost on our own citizens, this is where you think we can actually talk about saving some money? Really?

387 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 11:38:59pm

re: #386 JasonA

They're veterans. They have already fulfilled their function.

/

388 Mocking Jay  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 11:40:06pm

re: #387 000G

They're veterans. They have already fulfilled their function.

/

The really good ones don't get hurt in the first place!

389 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 11:43:08pm

re: #388 JasonA

The really good ones don't get hurt in the first place!

They step on those landmines on purpose so they can shake us down for pity and VA reparations!!!

re: #386 JasonA

Dear Dark_Falcon,

You are the biggest supporter of the military industrial complex on this board. Every time one of us asks if a reduction in defense spending is possible, your answer is a resounding "hell no."

This, the actual human cost on our own citizens, this is where you think we can actual talk about saving some money? Really?

/[Link: www.EvenWorseThanAnnCoulter.com...]

Psychos, cripes.

390 laZardo  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 11:43:14pm

re: #383 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

Exactly. It's all economic or trying to spite the other guy doing the same thing (e.g. Russia having a military base in Syria) since the Cold War.

If we want to protect human rights, the world has a better chance with us just leaving them damn well alone.

391 Mocking Jay  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 11:47:59pm

re: #383 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

We're approaching a state of perpetual war because we are a nation that seems to view war as the answer to all foreign policy problems. A country refuses to dance to our tune, we wave heavy ordinance at them and tell them to fall in line. An ally starts getting cold feet over our demands of them, we just happen to send a carrier to one of their ports. And when domestic problems gets such that the natives get restless, we orchestrate a foreign policy issue that involves us blowing the bejesus out of another country while folks back home rally 'round the flag.

Here we are, getting out of Iraq and finishing up in Libya, and already the war drums have begun to get louder for "action" to be taken against Iran. The warhawks are already making noises that if we won't do it, Israel will, even if we'll share the blame.

All that's left is for the President to be caught saying "I have altered the deal. Pray I don't alter it further..."

392 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 11:53:04pm

Hate speech?:

See vimeo page

393 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Fri, Nov 11, 2011 11:59:38pm

re: #392 000G

What in blazes WAS that?

I don't believe in the concept of hate speech, anyway. But I don't see why YT would take that down, when they have been allowing all manner of literal neo-nazi b.s. there for years.

394 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 12:00:15am
(Reuters) - The U.S. government may soon announce plans for a large sale of precision-guided bombs to the United Arab Emirates, a source familiar with the arms sales plans said late on Thursday, as tensions mounted with Iran over its nuclear program.

[Link: www.reuters.com...]

395 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 12:01:29am

re: #393 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

Heh. There's lots of entire channels on YT that people with IPs from German ISPs cannot watch.

396 Jimmi the Grey  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 12:01:52am

re: #355 Dark_Falcon

Outsourcing via vouchers was something Romney was floating as a idea. He wasn't making it a campaign plank, nor was he trying to reduce access to care. He was thinking about ways to reduce military health care costs, and that does need action. Such health care costs are rising at an unsustainable rate. Outsourcing might, and I emphasize might, be a way to cut costs without leaving veterans who need care in a bind.

Until the x amount of dollars allocated via vouchers runs out. Then it's bind time...

397 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 12:02:48am

re: #395 000G

Heh. There's lots of entire channels on YT that people with IPs from German ISPs cannot watch.

Yeah, we get it all, here. David Duke, Zundel, William Pierce, the whole nine yards.

398 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 12:04:08am

And recently, GEMA has gone through a myriad of music videos on YT. I can pretty much not watch anything popular on there anymore. Unless I use proxy services, like Tor.

This is the problem with online services that are so enormously big and serve quasi-monopoloy function: They want to serve all jurisdictions everywhere. Results in a lot of schizophrenia.

399 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 12:05:00am

re: #397 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

Yeah, we get it all, here. David Duke, Zundel, William Pierce, the whole nine yards.

Not just that but especially the German language stuff. Actual nazi shit and then the neo-nazi BS from people like Horst Mahler.

400 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 12:07:17am

Friendly fire from Predator drones?:

[Link: www.latimes.com...]

401 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 12:08:34am

re: #399 000G

Not just that but especially the German language stuff. Actual nazi shit and then the neo-nazi BS from people like Horst Mahler.

I know generally about the laws, but how do they keep a lid on that stuff? Do they really have to? Is it that bad?

402 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 12:09:00am

Supreme Court expresses doubts about police GPS use

This should be interesting. Lots of exciting SCOTUS cases coming up soon.

403 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 12:11:35am

re: #401 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

I know generally about the laws, but how do they keep a lid on that stuff? Do they really have to? Is it that bad?

Who do you mean? YT or German legislators/law enforcement?

404 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 12:12:21am

re: #403 000G

Who do you mean? YT or German legislators/law enforcement?

I meant the latter - sorry, wasn't clear.

405 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 12:13:45am

BTW, now I have that ridiculous song in my head.

Thanks, 000G!! /

406 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 12:19:50am

re: #404 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

how do they keep a lid on that stuff?

It gets reported, then it goes to trial and then it gets hammered with fines, confiscation, etc. Outside from private circles, you usually do not get away with holocaustt denial, for instance. I am not sure what you are asking, though.

Do they really have to? Is it that bad?

I don't really understand the question. Can you try clarifying how you mean that?

407 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 12:23:18am

I was in a university class once. The professor handed out photocopies of nazi material, for discussion. She told us explicitly to not leave it laying around because then she could get in trouble. Educational purposes only.

408 freetoken  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 12:23:51am
409 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 12:27:01am

re: #406 000G

It gets reported, then it goes to trial and then it gets hammered with fines, confiscation, etc. Outside from private circles, you usually do not get away with holocaustt denial, for instance. I am not sure what you are asking, though.

I don't really understand the question. Can you try clarifying how you mean that?

I meant, is there a big enough underground or trade in the kind of YT material you mentioned, that the laws are needed.

410 goddamnedfrank  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 12:31:16am
“Mitt Romney’s proposal to privatize our veterans’ health care is the same, sorry song and dance that we’ve heard from him before. Just as he would privatize Medicare, his announcement that he would privatize veterans’ health care, changing it into a voucher program, pulls the rug out from our veterans. He would cut ties with our veterans and leave them to fend for themselves on the private insurance market. But, our service members deserve better.

“President Obama has made a priority of providing for our veterans because he believes the sacrifices that our service members have made for this country are great and that our obligation to them should measure up to that sacrifice. He understands that our commitment to the men and women who serve their country doesn’t end when their service is up. President Obama has made investments to better treat those suffering from post-traumatic stress disorder and traumatic brain injury, and he’s proposed a plan to deal with high unemployment among post-911 veterans, offering tax credits for unemployed veterans and for employers who hire disabled veterans.

"But, on Veterans Day of all days, Mitt Romney made clear he would neglect that commitment to our nations veterans - proving yet again that he is out of touch with ordinary Americans and that he doesn't have what it takes to be commander-in-chief."

-Lieutenant General Claudia Kennedy (US Army, Retired)

411 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 12:33:23am

re: #409 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

I meant, is there a big enough underground or trade in the kind of YT material you mentioned, that the laws are needed.

I don't think the question makes sense. If there is any illegal material, it is relevant for law enforcement (and yes, AFAIK there is lots on YT, but that's besides the point). A better question would be whether the two parties, German law enforcement and YT, recognize each other, this being the internet. YT recognizes German law enforcement, because German law enforcement is big enough to really hurt YT if it fails to comply. German law enforcement recognizes YT because YT, even though it is an internet service globally available, aims at German citizens, that is to say: they are not limiting traffic of German language stuff that can get to German citizens. By restricting German IPs from access, YT washes its hand clean, as far as German law enforcement is concerned.

412 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 12:34:53am

bbl

413 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 12:40:51am

re: #411 000G

I don't think the question makes sense. If there is any illegal material, it is relevant for law enforcement (and yes, AFAIK there is lots on YT, but that's besides the point). A better question would be whether the two parties, German law enforcement and YT, recognize each other, this being the internet. YT recognizes German law enforcement, because German law enforcement is big enough to really hurt YT if it fails to comply. German law enforcement recognizes YT because YT, even though it is an internet service globally available, aims at German citizens, that is to say: they are not limiting traffic that can get to German citizens. By restricting German IPs from access, YT washes its hand clean, as far as German law enforcement is concerned.

So it's YT that does the restricting. Ok. That I didn't know. There are often IP-based restrictions regarding commercial material, along the lines of DVD regions, but that's the closest it comes here. (IP meaning the same as your para, above, not intellectual property.)

But the q was less about YT. I was trying to find out if there's so much of that type of material around that it warrants the German laws that make such material illegal.

414 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 12:47:13am

re: #378 SanFranciscoZionist

Too clunky. I preferred "Vietnam Butt Shrapnel".

there was actually already a band called Shrapnel, it was Dave Wyndorf's band before Monster Magnet, and the band Shrapnel through several iterations eventually became Metal Church


I know this, because I'm that guy who thinks of nothing all day except rock music 9_6

415 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 12:50:23am

re: #413 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

I was trying to find out if there's so much of that type of material around that it warrants the German laws that make such material illegal.

Just sneaking back in for this: It really is not about quantity. Would you say laws that made murder illegal were not warranted anymore if in a given state there was just one or two murders each year?

Also: You got to keep in mind when and why these laws were written, and how and when and why they were updated. You got to keep in mind that they are continuations of the legislative history against certain kind of speech that goes back into Weimar and beyond. You got to keep in mind that these laws have an effect of reducing the amount of material, so arguing about quantity is absurd in some respect. And you got to keep in mind who the people are who want to repeal such laws (esp. relevant these days in Austria).

416 laZardo  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 12:56:36am

Gotta slp folks.

In the meantime, have a Pokeymans.

417 Kragar  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 12:57:32am

re: #416 laZardo

Gotta slp folks.

In the meantime, have a Pokeymans.

418 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 1:16:59am

re: #415 000G

Well, I'm not arguing, I was asking you.

419 freetoken  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 1:27:28am

Tsuyoshi Yamamoto:

420 researchok  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 1:46:07am

Morning, all

421 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 1:50:02am

re: #418 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

Well, I'm not arguing, I was asking you.

I didn't think you were arguing. I just thought your question was nonsensical. Hence my attempt at broadening the perspective.

422 boxhead  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 1:54:15am

Great post wrenchwench... thank you

423 boxhead  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 1:54:44am

re: #420 researchok

Morning, all

morning!

424 researchok  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 1:56:01am

Cold here in Raleigh...31!

425 boxhead  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 1:57:30am

59 and rain in Los Angeles...

426 researchok  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 2:01:05am

re: #425 boxhead

Sounds better.

427 boxhead  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 2:07:32am

re: #415 000G

Just sneaking back in for this: It really is not about quantity. Would you say laws that made murder illegal were not warranted anymore if in a given state there was just one or two murders each year?

Also: You got to keep in mind when and why these laws were written, and how and when and why they were updated. You got to keep in mind that they are continuations of the legislative history against certain kind of speech that goes back into Weimar and beyond. You got to keep in mind that these laws have an effect of reducing the amount of material, so arguing about quantity is absurd in some respect. And you got to keep in mind who the people are who want to repeal such laws (esp. relevant these days in Austria).

I never really understood laws restricting speech. This is not counting making threats and yelling fire in crowded theaters. Letting kooks spew their kook blather in the open is a good thing. It makes it easier to know what the kooks are thinking.

428 boxhead  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 2:09:26am

re: #426 researchok

Sounds better.

I can go another week or two without watering... :) Living in LA, which has been called a desert, this is a good thing.. heh

429 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 2:11:43am

re: #427 boxhead

I never really understood laws restricting speech. This is not counting making threats and yelling fire in crowded theaters. Letting kooks spew their kook blather in the open is a good thing. It makes it easier to know what the kooks are thinking.

Letting kooks spew may amount to yelling fire in certain situations. Of course, where the boundaries lie is so vague that people will have different opinions in that. (E.g. I and 000G have opposite opinions on whether anti-denial laws are justified, and I would say both opinions are legitimate.)

430 boxhead  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 2:19:52am

re: #429 Sergey Romanov

Letting kooks spew may amount to yelling fire in certain situations. Of course, where the boundaries lie is so vague that people will have different opinions in that.

I don't see how people writing down and sharing fringe ideas can cause a stampede of people. Of course making threats does not count. Letting Neo Nazis host a website promoting their beliefs should not be feared. I like the idea that these fringe groups and their dubious thoughts should be exposed to the light (truth). And much like vampires, the light will end them. Forcing these people to hide in the shadows allows them to fester, out of sight and mind, from the rest of us.

431 researchok  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 2:23:43am

re: #429 Sergey Romanov

Letting kooks spew may amount to yelling fire in certain situations. Of course, where the boundaries lie is so vague that people will have different opinions in that.

One German thinker noted how easy it was for Americans to criticize restrictions on speech. He recalled how Americans have not had to deal with the darkest side of free speech.

I was in Munich, in the late 90's. I was staying in a hotel and was woken by a commotion outside.

Skinheads and other assorted thugs were marching, holding torches and screaming 'Auslander raus!'- foreigners leave! Most of the marchers were drunk and could best be described as a rather foolish looking lot.

I went downstairs to get a street level view as did most of the foreigners. While we laughed these buffoons off, the night concierge, an older man was quite distraught- 'This is not funny! This is how it starts!'

It was a sobering moment.

432 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 2:24:43am

re: #430 boxhead

I don't see how people writing down and sharing fringe ideas can cause a stampede of people.

You don't, others do. It has already happened in XXth century.

433 researchok  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 2:24:57am

re: #430 boxhead

That's the other side of the coin I just remarked on.

434 boxhead  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 2:26:22am

re: #431 researchok

an older man was quite distraught- 'This is not funny! This is how it starts!'

It was a sobering moment.

It is also the time for good people to stand up and do the right thing. Restricting speech will not deter bad folks from being bad.

435 boxhead  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 2:28:25am

re: #434 boxhead

It is also the time for good people to stand up and do the right thing. Restricting speech will not deter bad folks from being bad.

And further, what happens when the people deciding what speech is safe or not becomes corrupt?

436 researchok  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 2:29:35am

re: #434 boxhead

It is also the time for good people to stand up and do the right thing. Restricting speech will not deter bad folks from being bad.

I agree.

That said, Americans have been blessed- they have not had to deal with real evil on the home front.

The concierge I remarked on was quite agitated. He lived through the manipulation of free speech and democracy.

Still, these are the best kinds of arguments. They keep us centered on on the value of sanctity of freedom.

437 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 2:30:01am

re: #434 boxhead

Restricting speech will not deter bad folks from being bad.

Neither will anti-murder and anti-theft laws.

438 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 2:32:36am

re: #435 boxhead

And further, what happens when the people deciding what speech is safe or not becomes corrupt?

That is something always to keep in mind. Note, however, that this applies always. Unless you wish an absolute free speech (i.e., no anti-libel/slander laws; no anti-incitement to violence laws; no anti-revealing state secrets, such as making of nuclear weapons, laws; all of those are restrictions on free speech).

439 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 2:34:23am

Free speech is a vague issue where there are no absolutes (in practice). It's OK to debate its boundaries.

440 researchok  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 2:34:32am

re: #438 Sergey Romanov

I like the tension and arguments- it keeps our focus on our freedoms. We don't swallow the state pablum.

441 boxhead  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 2:37:29am

re: #436 researchok

I agree.

That said, Americans have been blessed- thety have not had to deal with real evil on the home front.

The concierge I remarked on was quite agitated. He lived through the manipulation of free speech and democracy.

Still, these are the best kinds of arguments. They keep us centered on on the value of sanctity of freedom.

My mother grew up in Germany during all that stuff. They lived in a small farm village in the South West of Germany. Most of the changes went unnoticed until the war started. I will say this, when your daily life is consumed with making enough money to feed your family, politics will be ignored. My mother was one of 8 kids and they had it rough during Germany's depression.

What I would hate to see is having restrictions on speech that would not allow the discussion we are having now. Who decides that a discussion about Nazis is not the same as promoting Nazis?

442 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 2:38:58am

re: #440 researchok

I like the tension and arguments- it keeps our focus on our freedoms. We don't swallow the state pablum.

I agree with everything you said here on this topic. The US has been an exception. When someone spouts neo-Nazi ideas, for example, or wears swastikas - such peoples are considered crazy.

However suppose some process happens at the end of which you find a large portion of population suddenly susceptible to neo-Nazi ideas and there is a danger of a rabble-rousing leader rising and thus a danger to other liberties, including lives. In such a case such laws would be appropriate even in the US.

The other side of a coin when such "anti-extremist" laws are used as a cudgel against legitimate opposition. Such is the country where I live.

443 boxhead  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 2:39:11am

re: #437 Sergey Romanov

Neither will anti-murder and anti-theft laws.

touche.... But thought crimes are a bit different from taking a life or another's property.

444 researchok  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 2:41:24am

A discussion of Nazis is not the same as having Nazis next door= real Nazis.

The vast majority of Germans are just fine with the public restriction on the expression of Nazi ideologies.

You are right- it is a fine line.

445 boxhead  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 2:41:59am

re: #442 Sergey Romanov

I agree with everything you said here on this topic. The US has been an exception. When someone spouts neo-Nazi ideas, for example, or wears swastikas - such peoples are considered crazy.

However suppose some process happens at the end of which you find a large portion of population suddenly susceptible to neo-Nazi ideas and there is a danger of a rabble-rousing leader rising and thus a danger to other liberties, including lives. In such a case such laws would be appropriate even in the US.

The other side of a coin when such "anti-extremist" laws are used as a cudgel against legitimate opposition. Such is the country where I live.

Isn't that what the GOP and FOX News is doing?

// ( i think )

But regarding your statement that such laws would be appropriate, that would take an Amendment to the Constitution. I would not think the odds of it passing would be good.

446 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 2:45:44am

re: #443 boxhead

touche... But thought crimes are a bit different from taking a life or another's property.

We are not talking about thoughtcrimes, though. Thoughtcrime, by Orwell's definition, is a literal thought crime - a crime committed in thoughts and by thinking.

Words and images are actions and can lead to real consequences. Which is why the US (as well as other countries) has real restrictions on free speech - such as prohibiting even possession of child porn and the revealing of state secrets, incitement to violence (even if very narrowly understood, as per Brandenburg v. Ohio); and permit to use law to restrict speech in case of perceived libel/slander.

Other countries just restrict speech a bit more. Some a lot more. But everyone does it.

447 boxhead  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 2:46:08am

re: #444 researchok

A discussion of Nazis is not the same as having Nazis next door= real Nazis.

The vast majority of Germans are just fine with the public restriction on the expression of Nazi ideologies.

You are right- it is a fine line.

It is their Country. They should be able to decide for themselves. But their beliefs should not restrict other Countries. But Hollywood and gaming companies do alter their products to fit Germany's restrictions, as well as other places where money might be lost if they did not.

448 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 2:47:06am

re: #445 boxhead

Yes, that's what the Fox and GOP are doing, the initial stages.

449 researchok  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 2:47:43am

re: #442 Sergey Romanov

Many people do not realize most restriction on speech (in Europe) is not about stifling expression but rather about protecting the weak and the minority populations.

You can be a Nazi in Europe if you like- that is your right- you cannot however publicly embrace and propagate Nazi ideologies.

This is why radical Islamist free speech is such a delicate subject- Nazis have those restrictions placed on them while for the most part, radical Islamists do not.

That however is beginning to change.

450 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 2:49:19am

re: #449 researchok

This is why radical Islamist free speech is such a delicate subject- Nazis have those restrictions placed on them while for the most part, radical Islamists do not.

That however is beginning to change.

And that's a good thing, as far as I'm concerned.

451 boxhead  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 2:50:35am

re: #446 Sergey Romanov

We are not talking about thoughtcrimes, though. Thoughtcrime, by Orwell's definition, is a literal thought crime - a crime committed in thoughts and by thinking.

Words and images are actions and can lead to real consequences. Which is why the US (as well as other countries) has real restrictions on free speech - such as prohibiting even possession child porn and the revealing of state secrets, incitement to violence (even if very narrowly understood, as per Brandenburg v. Ohio); and permit to use law to restrict speech in case of perceived libel/slander.

Other countries just restrict speech a bit more. Some a lot more. But everyone does it.

The examples you listed are restrictions in USA. But in USA, a march by the KKK is protected speech. That is not really much different than having a march by neoNazis.

452 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 2:51:05am

re: #451 boxhead

I know.

453 boxhead  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 2:52:34am

re: #448 Sergey Romanov

Yes, that's what the Fox and GOP are doing, the initial stages.

I would greatly fear any law restricting them from doing so. I just want a big ass microphone to yell from as well.

454 researchok  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 2:53:06am

re: #451 boxhead

The examples you listed are restrictions in USA. But in USA, a march by the KKK is protected speech. That is not really much different than having a march by neoNazis.

There is a difference. The KKK were never in real political power that resulted in the death of tens of millions.

455 boxhead  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 2:55:39am

re: #450 Sergey Romanov

And that's a good thing, as far as I'm concerned.

hmmm, I want to be able to draw a cartoon of Mohamed if I want to. I want to spew stupid ideas if I want to. As long as I do not infringe upon the Rights of another. And demanding that others cannot express ideas that make someone, anyone upset is not a Right.

456 boxhead  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 2:56:32am

re: #454 researchok

There is a difference. The KKK were never in real political power that resulted in the death of tens of millions.

They did plenty of harm. They spread loads of fear. Do the numbers really matter?

457 researchok  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 2:57:38am

When organized political expression results in the deaths of the weak, minorities and those deemed politically expedient, we have a problem.

A huge problem.

That is why Hamas, et al, are deemed terrorist organizations. Their 'political expression' is murderous.

458 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 2:57:57am

re: #453 boxhead

I would greatly fear any law restricting them from doing so. I just want a big ass microphone to yell from as well.

Sure, at this stage the law would actually make them stronger and would gather even all liberals to defend them. But it's the initial stage, as I pointed out. They're not out of boundaries yet, even when it comes to anti-Muslim propaganda (for example). But now suppose, as a hypothetical, that they evolve even further and begin spouting "all Muslims are evil and something (wink wink, nudge nudge) must be done about it" agitprop 24/7 *and* suppose that their audience doesn't decrease but rather grows. Still free speech? Or would it be at least legitimate to think about taking certain legislative measures?

459 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 2:58:05am

re: #454 researchok

And again, I additionally point to a history of these kinds of laws that go back much further than just Post-War Germany. There were laws against incitiment to class war in Weimar Germany! Even more perspective: Post-War Germany has had more freedom of opinion than in any era of Germany. Freedom of opinion is a right that has constitutional rank. It may only be restricted if it infringes upon other constitutional rights. One of these is the dignity of man. This is where most anti-hate speech legislation comes into place.

460 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 2:59:59am

re: #455 boxhead

hmmm, I want to be able to draw a cartoon of Mohamed if I want to.

Does this somehow relate to my comment?

I want to spew stupid ideas if I want to. As long as I do not infringe upon the Rights of another. And demanding that others cannot express ideas that make someone, anyone upset is not a Right.

OK, simple question: should possession of child porn be legal?

461 researchok  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 3:00:17am

re: #456 boxhead

They did plenty of harm. They spread loads of fear. Do the numbers really matter?

Yes, they do matter. The KKK was never a really organized political force. They were never in a position to restrict the free speech and expression of others.

As ugly as they were, they were just a bunch of losers- and utterly reprehensible.

462 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 3:01:07am
463 boxhead  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 3:02:46am

re: #458 Sergey Romanov

Sure, at this stage the law would actually make them stronger and would gather even all liberals to defend them. But it's the initial stage, as I pointed out. They're not out of boundaries yet, even when it comes to anti-Muslim propaganda (for example). But now suppose, as a hypothetical, that they evolve even further and begin spouting "all Muslims are evil and something (wink wink, nudge nudge) must be done about it" agitprop 24/7 *and* suppose that their audience doesn't decrease but rather grows. Still free speech? Or would it be at least legitimate to think about taking certain legislative measures?

I have seen exactly that type of speech by media here in USA. I get very upset at those that spread that hate. And I still do not want a law restricting them. I want a law that allows an equally loud voice that speaks the truth.

464 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 3:03:18am

re: #461 researchok

The KKK was never a really organized political force. They were never in a position to restrict the free speech and expression opf others.

I think OhCrap would disagree.

465 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 3:05:44am

re: #463 boxhead

Sometimes demanding an equally loud microphone is just impractical. What about teachers who demand freedom of speech to teach intelligent design in classrooms of public schools? What about crap like this?:

Blount was an Alabama wheeler-dealer with close friends on the county commission. For years, when Wall Street banks wanted to do business with municipalities, whether for bond issues or rate swaps, it was standard practice to reach out to a local sleazeball like Blount and pay him a shitload of money to help seal the deal. "Banks would pay some local consultant, and the consultant would then funnel money to the politician making the decision," says Christopher Taylor, the former head of the board that regulates municipal borrowing. Back in the 1990s, Taylor pushed through a ban on such backdoor bribery. He also passed a ban on bankers contributing directly to politicians they do business with — a move that sparked a lawsuit by one aggrieved sleazeball, who argued that halting such legalized graft violated his First Amendment rights. The name of that pissed-off banker? "It was the one and only Bill Blount," Taylor says with a laugh.

[Link: www.rollingstone.com...]

466 researchok  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 3:08:23am

re: #464 000G

I think OhCrap would disagree.

Perhaps, but the KKK did not dictate organized national policy, control police forces, the judiciary or were able to enact national laws that were discriminatory.

Please do not take this as a defense of the KKK in any way, shape or form. I'm only highlighting the difference between them and the Nazi Party.

See this

467 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 3:08:32am

re: #463 boxhead

I have seen exactly that type of speech by media here in USA.

I very much doubt you've seen anything I'm describing. Which is a large media empire devoting itself to implicitly violent propaganda 24/7. At most you've seen Coulter, Savage and Limbaugh. They're bad, but not to the degree I'm describing in the hypothetical.

I get very upset at those that spread that hate. And I still do not want a law restricting them. I want a law that allows an equally loud voice that speaks the truth.

But merely allowing such a voice doesn't mean that it will arise or be effective in countering the murderous propaganda. So after this was tried - and failed - at this point you just throw hands up and say "Oh, well..."? Or do you do what Roosevelt did to Coughlin?

468 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 3:09:24am

re: #466 researchok

Perhaps, but the KKK did not dictate organized national policy, control police forces, the judiciary or were able to enact national laws that were discriminatory.

Yea, but they certainly controlled municipalities. One might argue entire States. I am not learned enough to say.

469 RogueOne  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 3:09:38am

Morning Cupcakes

470 boxhead  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 3:10:10am

re: #460 Sergey Romanov

Does this somehow relate to my comment?

OK, simple question: should possession of child porn be legal?

Child porn is evidence of a criminal act. Possession of such is further exploiting the child. So no.

But to your first question, my comments relate because you are advocating restrictions on speech that one group of society deems very harmful. If allowed, my concern will always be over who gets to decide. So Germans today wish Nazi propaganda to be restricted. Muslims wish loads of other crap to be restricted. Many on the extreme Right in USA wish Playboy to be restricted.

Who decides?

471 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 3:11:43am

re: #470 boxhead

Child porn is evidence of a criminal act. Possession of such is further exploiting the child. So no.

See, you've just used a convoluted argument to restrict freedom of speech.

472 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 3:12:53am

re: #470 boxhead

Child porn is evidence of a criminal act. Possession of such is further exploiting the child.

Assuming that you hadn't gone out and paid for the material, had not distributed it to anyone else, and are not going out to seek further material: How is simple possession further exploiting the child?

473 researchok  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 3:13:09am

re: #468 000G

Yea, but they certainly controlled municipalities. One might argue entire States. I am not learned enough to say.

True to all, but in the end, the federal governments trumped their jurisdictions. The power of the state rested with feds. This does not minimize the damage done by the KKK, but in perspective they were never a threat to national freedoms.

Sergey can better highlight the difference between real oppressive regimes better than I ever could.

474 researchok  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 3:14:41am

Argggh..just when things pick up I have to leave.

Dragons await.

later all.

475 boxhead  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 3:18:16am

re: #467 Sergey Romanov

I very much doubt you've seen anything I'm describing. Which a large media empire devoting itself to implicitly violent propaganda 24/7. At most you've seen Coulter, Savage and Limbaugh. They're bad, but not to the degree I'm describing in the hypothetical.

But merely allowing such a voice doesn't mean that it will arise or be effective in countering the murderous propaganda. So after this was tried - and failed - at this point you just throw hands up and say "Oh, well..."? Or do you do what Roosevelt did to Coughlin?

Ok... I agree the level of propaganda in Germany was at least an order of magnitude greater than FOX, if not two. But the hate speech was still there. Maligning all Arabs and all Muslims as the enemy was there. Blaming Liberals, Gay and any one else that did not march in lock step with them was there. That is exactly the same as neonazis marching. When the elder gentleman made his comment, the level of rhetoric expressed by the marchers were no less than what has been spread here. Remember, those kids are no where near the same as the actual Nazis in Germany's 1930s.

476 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 3:21:06am

re: #421 000G

I didn't think you were arguing. I just thought your question was nonsensical.

You said something about arguing quanitity being nonsensical, which I wasn't doing.

Doesn't matter, it was just a question.

477 boxhead  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 3:21:25am

re: #472 000G

Assuming that you hadn't gone out and paid for the material, had not distributed it to anyone else, and are not going out to seek further material: How is simple possession further exploiting the child?

really? Say a person takes your picture while you are in a less than flattering pose. Would spreading that picture everywhere cause you grief? Extrapolate to child pornography and you should come to the same belief as I do.

478 boxhead  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 3:22:58am

re: #471 Sergey Romanov

See, you've just used a convoluted argument to restrict freedom of speech.

Please see re: #477 boxhead

479 boxhead  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 3:23:16am

re: #474 researchok

Argggh..just when things pick up I have to leave.

Dragons await.

later all.

nite

480 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 3:23:22am

re: #477 boxhead

More restrictions on free speech. Now by an even vaguer criterion of "causing grief". Who decides?

481 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 3:23:35am

re: #429 Sergey Romanov

Letting kooks spew may amount to yelling fire in certain situations. Of course, where the boundaries lie is so vague that people will have different opinions in that. (E.g. I and 000G have opposite opinions on whether anti-denial laws are justified, and I would say both opinions are legitimate.)

Not here. We had a convo (very brief) about Brandenburg, which ruled against that idea if there was no "imminent danger" of mayhem or assault, damage, etc.

482 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 3:24:11am

re: #477 boxhead

really? Say a person takes your picture while you are in a less than flattering pose. Would spreading that picture everywhere cause you grief? Extrapolate to child pornography and you should come to the same belief as I do.

Possessing something does not equal "spreading it everywhere". What if you simply found the picture in the woods, somebody dropped it there long ago. Maybe the person on that picture already died. You do not show that picture to anyone, including police. How does it "further exploit"?

483 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 3:24:18am

re: #478 boxhead

Please see re: #477 boxhead

You haven't explained in #477 how possession of cp is exploitation of a child. Instead you've switched to distribution, which is another beast altogether.

484 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 3:24:44am

re: #481 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

Not here. We had a convo (very brief) about Brandenburg, which ruled against that idea if there was no "imminent danger" of mayhem or assault, damage, etc.

Read the whole thread, please.

485 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 3:25:41am

re: #436 researchok

I agree.

That said, Americans have been blessed- they have not had to deal with real evil on the home front.

Well, maybe not your family.

486 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 3:26:06am

re: #484 Sergey Romanov

Read the whole thread, please.

Patience, pls. I'm getting there.

487 RogueOne  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 3:26:56am

re: #480 Sergey Romanov

More restrictions on free speech. Now by an even vaguer criterion of "causing grief". Who decides?

What if it's more akin to the laws about receiving stolen property? Taking pornographic photos/videos of children is illegal therefore possession of the illegally made material is also illegal.

488 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 3:27:14am

re: #476 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

You said something about arguing quanitity being nonsensical, which I wasn't doing.

Fine: Your question assumed that quantity mattered. It doesn't.

489 boxhead  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 3:27:37am

re: #480 Sergey Romanov

More restrictions on free speech. Now by an even vaguer criterion of "causing grief". Who decides?

really, are you equating taking pornographic photos of children to people promoting White Power? If so, you win cause I do not find that debate even worth thinking about.

490 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 3:28:00am

re: #487 RogueOne

What if it's more akin to the laws about receiving stolen property? Taking pornographic photos/videos of children is illegal therefore possession of the illegally made material is also illegal.

Does that mean that possession of photos of various historical massacres is also illegal?

491 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 3:28:48am

re: #487 RogueOne

What if it's more akin to the laws about receiving stolen property? Taking pornographic photos/videos of children is illegal therefore possession of the illegally made material is also illegal.

Possessing stolen property is illegal because the original owner's rights are infringed upon by somebody else possessing his stuff without permission. I don't see how that applies analogously to cp.

492 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 3:30:27am

re: #489 boxhead

really, are you equating taking pornographic photos of children to people promoting White Power?

Uh, no.

If so, you win cause I do not find that debate even worth thinking about.

We're debating the principles and boundaries of free speech, aren't we? If you're making overly general arguments about free speech, be prepared for them to be used for marginal cases as well. And if they do somehow allow these cases, better re-think your case.

493 RogueOne  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 3:31:10am

re: #490 Sergey Romanov

Does that mean that possession of photos of various historical massacres is also illegal?

In this country taking massacre pictures isn't illegal.

I know this discussion is centered around the limits of free speech (I read the thread thank you//) but for a second I thought you were going to mention the guy in FLA that was sentenced to 154 years for possession last week. If he had actually raped a child he would have received a lesser sentence.

494 boxhead  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 3:31:23am

re: #483 Sergey Romanov

You haven't explained in #477 how possession of cp is exploitation of a child. Instead you've switched to distribution, which is another beast altogether.

wow....... If I wore a shirt with your face on if while you were doing something you are not proud of, I would be exploiting you. I would be a dick to do so. Is that a crime? depends on the picture. If you really don't think having child porn can further harm the child in a criminal fashion then I am done. Logic does not work.

495 RogueOne  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 3:32:09am

re: #491 000G

Possessing stolen property is illegal because the original owner's rights are infringed upon by somebody else possessing his stuff without permission. I don't see how that applies analogously to cp.

What about a childs right not to be molested?

496 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 3:32:20am

re: #493 RogueOne

In this country taking massacre pictures isn't illegal.

Such differences cannot be used to argue for a principled free speech position.

497 RogueOne  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 3:33:11am

re: #490 Sergey Romanov

Does that mean that possession of photos of various historical massacres is also illegal?

Wait, I'm on my first cup of coffee, but I think I just got your point. The pictures of the massacre aren't illegal but the massacre is...

498 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 3:33:55am

re: #461 researchok

Yes, they do matter. The KKK was never a really organized political force. They were never in a position to restrict the free speech and expression of others.

As ugly as they were, they were just a bunch of losers- and utterly reprehensible.

It might be one thing if it were just "the kkk", but it's not. There were and remain many concurrent white supremacist and now white nationalist organizations, if you want to focus on the 19th century iteration, there were parallel developments on the west coast of anti-Asian/Asian Exclusion societies such as Sons of the Golden West, and of course anti-Mexican agitation. They were behind the segregation and later eugenics/racial-purity/anti-miscegenation laws in California, for instance.

Politicians into the highest office(s) were known Klan simps, including Woodrow Wilson - see his academic work on Google Books. Indiana is also pretty notorious case. There are others. White supremacy is a lot more than the klan marching down the street (which they did in the city where I grew up, btw), and are/were more than just a bunch of losers.

499 RogueOne  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 3:34:42am

re: #496 Sergey Romanov

Such differences cannot be used to argue for a principled free speech position.

Which is a weird argument between us since I'm the one who believes there shouldn't be any restrictions and you disagree. We switched sides.

500 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 3:34:55am

re: #494 boxhead

If you really don't think having child porn can further harm the child in a criminal fashion then I am done. Logic does not work.

Thank you for conceding the argument.

BTW, I can use the same type of argument - "If you really don't think hate speech cannot harm minorities in a criminal fashion then I am done." Two can play that game.

501 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 3:35:26am

re: #495 RogueOne

What about a childs right not to be molested?

The molesting has already happened. It may very well have stopped. There is no direct link between you possessing a picture of the molestation and the molestation continuing or not. (or happening in the first place). There's lots of gaps you would have to fill (distribution, seeking such material, financial transactions, etc.) to make the connection. And: What if you had cp from the earliest days of photography, all participants having died already. What difference could it even make then?

502 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 3:37:17am

re: #499 RogueOne

Which is a weird argument between us since I'm the one who believes there shouldn't be any restrictions and you disagree. We switched sides.

Actually, I'm exploring all sides.

And I don't believe you think there shouldn't be any restrictions. See #446. All the "doesn't fall under free speech" clauses are actually restrictions on free speech.

503 boxhead  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 3:37:40am

re: #500 Sergey Romanov

Thank you for conceding the argument.

BTW, I can use the same type of argument - "If you really don't think hate speech cannot harm minorities in a criminal fashion then I am done." Two can play that game.

calling someone names does not equal pictures of child rape.

504 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 3:37:53am

re: #453 boxhead

I would greatly fear any law restricting them from doing so. I just want a big ass microphone to yell from as well.

Since 1969, SCOTUS says yes. I agree with them.

505 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 3:38:33am

re: #503 boxhead

calling someone names does not equal pictures of child rape.

It's all speech.

506 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 3:40:37am

re: #493 RogueOne

In this country taking massacre pictures isn't illegal.

I know this discussion is centered around the limits of free speech (I read the thread thank you//) but for a second I thought you were going to mention the guy in FLA that was sentenced to 154 years for possession last week. If he had actually raped a child he would have received a lesser sentence.

Sandusky will probably plea and walk in some way, too.

507 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 3:42:02am

re: #506 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

Sandusky will probably plea and walk in some way, too.

That guy who caught them in the shower? Good thing he didn't take pictures to prove S to be a predator. Who would be the first one to go.
///

508 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 3:43:44am

re: #499 RogueOne

Which is a weird argument between us since I'm the one who believes there shouldn't be any restrictions and you disagree. We switched sides.

If it's going to criminally incite, the state does have the right to restrict.

Incitement or not, so do private companies like YT. The odd thing to me is that YT allows literal nazi crud, yet that person who made that weird HC video 000G posted (which kicked off this conversation, iirc) claimed YT dumped it as "hate speech".

TBH, I kind of doubt that person. But it's also entirely possible.

509 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 3:43:55am

re: #507 Sergey Romanov

That guy who caught them in the shower?

No. Sandusky was the rapist. The walk-in was McQueary.

510 boxhead  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 3:44:36am

re: #505 Sergey Romanov

It's all speech.

and not all is protected. I thought we established that already.

I do like your comparison of mass burial sites to CP. As far as I can tell, dead people have not many Rights. Families of the dead are able to file suit on behalf of their lost loved one.

And as far as CP is concerned, many believe hand drawn artwork depicting child porn is also illegal. That is far more dubious.

511 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 3:44:59am

Speaking of other restrictions on free speech: why is it illegal to show hardcore porn on a news channel in prime time? Obscenity? "Who decides?". Harm to minors? Yep. However, isn't this also the argument to restrict Fox-type hate speech to only certain hours? Surely it does affect minors.

512 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 3:45:33am

re: #509 000G

No. Sandusky was the rapist. The walk-in was McQueary.

That's what I wrote. You misinterpreted the first sentence.

513 boxhead  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 3:46:12am

re: #504 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

Since 1969, SCOTUS says yes. I agree with them.

Please let me know which stuff you agree with. I am lost.

514 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 3:47:42am

re: #511 Sergey Romanov

That's the one thing I've always found weird about the US. If it's snuff, murder, war crimes, etc. it's all okay to show children because reality is ruff etc. But if it's even just zOMG BOOBIES then HOW DARE YOU EXPOSE CHILDREN TO SEXUALITY!

515 boxhead  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 3:47:50am

re: #493 RogueOne

In this country taking massacre pictures isn't illegal.

I know this discussion is centered around the limits of free speech (I read the thread thank you//) but for a second I thought you were going to mention the guy in FLA that was sentenced to 154 years for possession last week. If he had actually raped a child he would have received a lesser sentence.

that is absurd.... in a very sad way....

516 RogueOne  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 3:48:18am

re: #502 Sergey Romanov

Actually, I'm exploring all sides.

And I don't believe you think there shouldn't be any restrictions. See #446. All the "doesn't fall under free speech" clauses are actually restrictions on free speech.

re: #446 Sergey Romanov

....

Words and images are actions and can lead to real consequences. Which is why the US (as well as other countries) has real restrictions on free speech - such as prohibiting even possession of child porn and the revealing of state secrets, incitement to violence (even if very narrowly understood, as per Brandenburg v. Ohio); and permit to use law to restrict speech in case of perceived libel/slander.

Other countries just restrict speech a bit more. Some a lot more. But everyone does it.

You're probably right, maybe not any restrictions...I agree that everyone does it but I disagree with the laws you mention. IMO, revealing state secrets should only be illegal if you've signed a pledge to not reveal those secrets. Also, I don't think libel/slander are criminal actions in the US. The possession of child porn is a tougher one.

517 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 3:49:46am

re: #510 boxhead

As far as I can tell, dead people have not many Rights. Families of the dead are able to file suit on behalf of their lost loved one.

In Germany, the families of the deceased can file against their memory being denigrated. That's a core element of grounds for prosecuting holocaust denial.

518 boxhead  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 3:50:23am

re: #511 Sergey Romanov

Speaking of other restrictions on free speech: why is it illegal to show hardcore porn on a news channel in prime time? Obscenity? "Who decides?". Harm to minors? Yep. However, isn't this also the argument to restrict Fox-type hate speech to only certain hours? Surely it does affect minors.

Funny you should ask this... Tonight I watched Team America uncut on Comedy Central. All the bad words were left in.

519 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 3:50:51am

re: #510 boxhead

and not all is protected.

Yes, and thus the boundaries will necessary be wobbly around various countries.

Listen, our so-called Criminal Code article 282 (in Russia, in case you wonder) is a specially crafted oppressive tool to deal with anti-govt opposition. It's so broad it could be used against almost anyone (even if it does contain minor useful parts about incitement). So I do get that "anti-incitement" free speech restrictions can be misused. Big time. I just don't think any and all such restrictions therefore should be abolished everywhere regardless of the situation a country is in, and I certainly don't think that a general free speech argument would do the trick.

520 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 3:52:40am

re: #517 000G

In Germany, the families of the deceased can file against their memory being denigrated. That's a core element of grounds for prosecuting holocaust denial.

That's another reason why I find such prosecutions silly. I should be able to denigrate anyone's memory, AFAIC.

521 RogueOne  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 3:53:05am

re: #506 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

Sandusky will probably plea and walk in some way, too.

I doubt it, he's going away for the rest of his life IMO.

There was a case around here a few years ago where a policeman was sleeping with a 16yr old girl. He didn't get in trouble for that but he did get a year in jail for having a nude pic of her on his phone. Weird priorities we have sometimes.

522 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 3:53:18am

re: #458 Sergey Romanov

Sure, at this stage the law would actually make them stronger and would gather even all liberals to defend them. But it's the initial stage, as I pointed out. They're not out of boundaries yet, even when it comes to anti-Muslim propaganda (for example). But now suppose, as a hypothetical, that they evolve even further and begin spouting "all Muslims are evil and something (wink wink, nudge nudge) must be done about it" agitprop 24/7 *and* suppose that their audience doesn't decrease but rather grows. Still free speech? Or would it be at least legitimate to think about taking certain legislative measures?

Yes, it is still free speech here, legally speaking. We (the US) ran into a related issue with the Gabrielle Giffords shooting and ridiculous Sarah Palin. It won't surprise you, but this was my take on the issue, which differed pretty wildly from just about everybody I know.

It also depends on where it's being said. The FCC doesn't regulate cable, where the speech restrictions are much different than broadcast. Some grumbling about legislative action around I guess the SarahPAC posters were being kicked around, but I didn't take it too seriously because the bar is set so high here. It's going to take a lot to knock down Brandenburg. I don't think it will be challenged any time soon.

523 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 3:53:49am

re: #521 RogueOne

I doubt it, he's going away for the rest of his life IMO.

There was a case around here a few years ago where a policeman was sleeping with a 16yr old girl. He didn't get in trouble for that but he did get a year in jail for having a nude pic of her on his phone. Weird priorities we have sometimes.

I sure hope so!

524 boxhead  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 3:56:12am

re: #519 Sergey Romanov

I suppose it is nigh impossible to craft a Free Speech law to please all. The only way to do so is to suppose that all those expressing their free speech are doing to in a positive fashion and not trying to be a douche bag. As that does not guarantee the desired results.

So do you write the law that errs on the side of more freedom, or less. I will usually pick the former.

525 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 3:56:14am

re: #520 Sergey Romanov

That's another reason why I find such prosecutions silly. I should be able to denigrate anyone's memory, AFAIC.

I don't think so. I think prohibiting you (and anyone else, for that matter) is a legitimate tool in protecting minorities and the dignity of their individual members.

526 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 3:57:18am

re: #513 boxhead

Please let me know which stuff you agree with. I am lost.

Sorry, that was a reference to Brandenburg v Ohio (1969). I agree with the "imminent lawless action" clause, though DANG, that bar is set high :/

Incitement test

527 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 3:58:24am

re: #525 000G

I don't think so. I think prohibiting you (and anyone else, for that matter) is a legitimate tool in protecting minorities and the dignity of their individual members.

That's basically what it boils down to and why there are battles around free speech - there are no objective rules, nor there can be ones. Always boils down to opinion.

528 boxhead  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 3:59:29am

re: #525 000G

I don't think so. I think prohibiting you (and anyone else, for that matter) is a legitimate tool in protecting minorities and the dignity of their individual members.

Should that restriction matter if one were to write down offending speech but kept it private, versus doing the same plus handing out pamphlets?

529 RogueOne  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 4:00:16am

re: #525 000G

I disagree. I'm much more in line with the ACLU motto of "The best way to counter obnoxious speech is with more speech". Hence my support of both the TP'ers and the OWS crowd. You don't have to agree with their positions in order to support their right to demonstrate. I don't find crowds of people espousing contrary views to be scary. Turns out, we're not all gonna die.

530 boxhead  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 4:01:31am

re: #529 RogueOne

I disagree. I'm much more in line with the ACLU motto of "The best way to counter obnoxious speech is with more speech". Hence my support of both the TP'ers and the OWS crowd. You don't have to agree with their positions in order to support their right to demonstrate. I don't find crowds of people espousing contrary views to be scary. Turns out, we're not all gonna die.

huh? what secret have you learned?

531 sattv4u2  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 4:01:44am

re: #529 RogueOne

Turns out, we're not all gonna die.

Wow ,, guess you're health coverage is WAY better than mine!!

//

532 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 4:03:33am

re: #528 boxhead

Should that restriction matter if one were to write down offending speech but kept it private, versus doing the same plus handing out pamphlets?

Yes. Just private stuff is basically like thoughts. Should not be prosecuted.

533 RogueOne  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 4:05:03am

re: #530 boxhead

re: #531 sattv4u2

Smart-Asses, the both of ya!

I recall during the TP demonstrations people on the left being overly concerned with the dangers of potential violence of all the old people demonstrating. I disagreed with them at the time. Now that the shoe is on the other foot with the OWS crowd the right and left have switched sides with their concerns. Say what you want about a certain member of the club but at least he's consistent.

534 sattv4u2  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 4:05:51am

re: #533 RogueOne

Say what you want about a certain member of the club but at least he's consistent

A and Men

535 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 4:06:17am

re: #525 000G

I don't think so. I think prohibiting you (and anyone else, for that matter) is a legitimate tool in protecting minorities and the dignity of their individual members.

I don't think that's possible here. Here, the kkk and NSM88 march with police protection; have since Skokie, 1978. Where I grew up, in the early and late 80s.

Also, Ann Coulter gets up on television and disgraces herself, and us, with ownership metaphors of blacks; there is a member here who thinks it's funny.

I don't give a damn what either of them think about me as a Black person, any more than they care what I think. I care only what they do about it against my person such as criminal intimidation or incitement.

536 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 4:06:36am

re: #533 RogueOne

Consistent, huh? If his criticisms of the Tea Party equal in quality to his criticisms of OWS, I will have to reconsider the Tea Party!

///nah

537 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 4:07:01am

re: #529 RogueOne

"The best way to counter obnoxious speech is with more speech".

But as I said above, sometimes that is simply impractical, re: religious speech in science classes disguised as science, for instance. "Teach both sides / the controversy and let the students figure it out" is not an appropriate answer. And it's not just about "obnoxious" speech. "Being annoyed/offended" is not the only relevant possible infraction in free speech issues.

538 RogueOne  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 4:09:19am

re: #537 000G

I guess we also have to consider the differences between what would be considered Criminal and Civil infractions. It's all getting very confusing...

539 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 4:09:44am

re: #537 000G

Well, OK, here you speak of anti-science, in the other comment of denigrating the memory, so here's a hypothetical: when science or history "denigrates the memory of the dead" by destroying some tribal myth or another, who should win? (There's even a real case in the US I can think of, but a pure hypothetical should do, I think).

540 RogueOne  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 4:09:54am

re: #536 Sergey Romanov

Consistent, huh? If his criticisms of the Tea Party equal in quality to his criticisms of OWS, I will have to reconsider the Tea Party!

///nah

Some people just don't like crowds.

541 boxhead  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 4:10:24am

re: #537 000G

But as I said above, sometimes that is simply impractical, re: religious speech in science classes disguised as science, for instance. "Teach both sides / the controversy and let the students figure it out" is not an appropriate answer. . And it's not just about "obnoxious" speech. "Being annoyed/offended" is not the only relevant possible infraction in free speech issues.

Here is where this topic gets muddled. I would submit that the only way to have this discussion is with people of somewhat similar views. Trying to debate with a Young Earth Creationist about how science should be taught is impossible. Is it OK to disregard stupid speech? :)

542 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 4:11:37am

re: #537 000G

But as I said above, sometimes that is simply impractical, re: religious speech in science classes disguised as science, for instance. "Teach both sides / the controversy and let the students figure it out" is not an appropriate answer. And it's not just about "obnoxious" speech. "Being annoyed/offended" is not the only relevant possible infraction in free speech issues.

That's somewhat different because it's separation of church and state. Also 1st Amendment, but different.

"Teach both sides" is an inappropriate response because it's a fallacy that there are "two sides". The Biblical literalist side really just wants an "in" to impose their views on the taxpaying public.

They sure as hell don't mean evolution should be taught with Hindu creation stories being the other side of the two :D

543 sattv4u2  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 4:11:56am

re: #540 RogueOne

Some people just don't like crowds.

I don't mind crowds

It's the people in them that bugs me!

544 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 4:12:46am

re: #535 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

I don't think that's possible here. Here, the kkk and NSM88 march with police protection; have since Skokie, 1978. Where I grew up, in the early and late 80s.

Oh, we had such bullshit, too. Not everything is already sorted out until the end of times, you know this. Google "Hess Marsch" or "Heß Gedenkmarsch". And see the Wunsiedel decision. Basically, we had marches commemorating Rudolf Heß until 2005 (ban affirmed in final instance 2009).

I don't give a damn what either of them think about me as a Black person, any more than they care what I think. I care only what they do about it against my person such as criminal intimidation or incitement.

When does it cross the line from denigrating some or all black persons into intimidating or inciting against specific persons?

545 sattv4u2  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 4:12:46am

re: #541 boxhead

Is it OK to disregard stupid speech? :)

It's not only OK, its recommended for your mental well being!

546 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 4:13:03am

re: #541 boxhead

This also pertains to other parts of free speech discussion. The kind of free speech that works in the US works not so much because of the laws but because of the people.

547 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 4:13:13am

re: #541 boxhead

Here is where this topic gets muddled. I would submit that the only way to have this discussion is with people of somewhat similar views. Trying to debate with a Young Earth Creationist about how science should be taught is impossible. Is it OK to disregard stupid speech? :)

Or even tell the speaker their speech is stupid? I say, aye.

548 RogueOne  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 4:13:46am

re: #543 sattv4u2

I don't mind crowds

It's the people in them that bugs me!

I'm going to disregard that comment

549 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 4:16:29am

re: #539 Sergey Romanov

Well, OK, here you speak of anti-science, in the other comment of denigrating the memory, so here's a hypothetical: when science or history "denigrates the memory of the dead" by destroying some tribal myth or another, who should win? (There's even a real case in the US I can think of, but a pure hypothetical should do, I think).

Depends. In the case of anti-science, it was relevant because science is what was supposed to be taught per public mandate while there was constitutional provision against promoting religion per public mandate. So "anti-science" was not the issue at heart, the issue at heart was seperation of church and state.

Gimme the actual case, I don't think there is enough parameter grounds for discussing hypothesis as it stands.

550 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 4:17:36am

re: #542 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

That's somewhat different because it's separation of church and state. Also 1st Amendment, but different.

It is applicable because both are constitutional rights, at odds with one another, but the same on some level.

551 sattv4u2  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 4:17:53am

Can anyone say Chevy Corvair !?!?

[Link: autos.yahoo.com...]

552 boxhead  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 4:19:12am

re: #546 Sergey Romanov

This also pertains to other parts of free speech discussion. The kind of free speech that works in the US works not so much because of the laws but because of the people.

Yes.... for some reason having good people makes it much easier to have a civil and lawful society.

553 RogueOne  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 4:19:24am

re: #543 sattv4u2

I don't mind crowds

It's the people in them that bugs me!

I make a joke about being "born in the middle of the detroit riots so it's in my blood" but I'm actually only partially joking. I might be the only one but I love righteous indignation and flipping cars over. I'm the bizzaro killgore. One of my mothers proudest moments of me is when I was maybe 5yrs old. We lived in an apt and the neighbors got into a massive fight one night. Cops showed up, all the yelling and lights and I told my mom "I hate trouble...but it sure is fun".

554 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 4:19:37am

re: #544 000G

Oh, we had such bullshit, too. Not everything is already sorted out until the end of times, you know this. Google "Hess Marsch" or "Heß Gedenkmarsch". And see the Wunsiedel decision. Basically, we had marches commemorating Rudolf Heß until 2005 (ban affirmed in final instance 2009).

I'll do that. Thx for the ref.

555 boxhead  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 4:19:57am

arrr... time to leave the fun here... night all

556 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 4:20:45am

re: #546 Sergey Romanov

This also pertains to other parts of free speech discussion. The kind of free speech that works in the US works not so much because of the laws but because of the people.

However, it would be a folly to assume that men made laws but laws did not make men. Without Prohibition, no Al Capone.

557 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 4:21:41am

Good morning, Crimestoppers.

Did anyone see the Nick Cage "Windtalkers" movie?

558 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 4:22:50am

re: #550 000G

It is applicable because both are constitutional rights, at odds with one another, but the same on some level.

Well, it's related, but different. Two different aspects of the First Amendment.

The Biblical literalists aren't arguing for free speech, they're arguing to have their brand of theology taught to all taxpayer's children.

559 sattv4u2  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 4:22:56am

re: #553 RogueOne

I love righteous indignation and flipping cars over.

I LOVE

righteous indignation

but I draw the line when it comes to destroying property thats not mine (or the property of someone I'm protesting with)

EXAMPLE ,,, You want to buy a flag and burn it because you're pissed at America for (fill in the blank)
Have at it

You grab MY flag and burn it, Houston, we have a problem!

560 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 4:23:12am

By the by: Paul Feyerabend even laid out a strong case for a separation of science and state in the seminal Science in a Free Society.

561 sattv4u2  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 4:23:57am

re: #557 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Good morning, Crimestoppers.

Did anyone see the Nick Cage "Windtalkers" movie?

I'm sure someone did
The producers, ,, the directors,,, all the actors ,,, some movie critics ,,,,you ,,,,

562 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 4:24:36am

re: #558 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

The Biblical literalists aren't arguing for free speech, they're arguing to have their brand of theology taught to all taxpayer's children.

They're arguing both. They're being disingenuous about the former, though.

563 RogueOne  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 4:25:03am

re: #559 sattv4u2

I love righteous indignation and flipping cars over.

I LOVE

but I draw the line when it comes to destroying property thats not mine (or the property of someone I'm protesting with)

.....

I didn't say it was right, I said it was fun! Most of the really fun stuff isn't really "right" if you know what I mean, wink wink nudge nudge.

564 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 4:25:30am

re: #554 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

I'll do that. Thx for the ref.

PIMF - the rest did not show up.

Here it is


000G:

When does it cross the line from denigrating some or all black persons into intimidating or inciting against specific persons?

The lines are pretty clear.

They can burn crosses on their own lawns, not ours. Well, not burn them and
and get caught, anyway. It's not like they've ever stopped.

Also, look up Mulugeta Seraw, 1988. Incitement laws worked against Tom Metzger, who was found to have incited the murderers. This is one of the main reasons the dumb bigots h-a-t-e SPLC.

Too bad researchok isn't around -- Tom Metzger ran for office in CA about the time the Klan was goosestepping around town. He still is, fwiu.

Dumb confederate.

565 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 4:26:57am

re: #562 000G

They're arguing both. They're being disingenuous about the former, though.

They're arguing special rights for themselves over all others. They don't believe in free speech.

Heh, they are disingenuous about just about everything.

566 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 4:27:17am

re: #556 000G

However, it would be a folly to assume that men made laws but laws did not make men. Without Prohibition, no Al Capone.

One of my favorite odd quotes, St. Valentines Massacre. Guy's been shot several (I think 14) times, cop asks him about it, he says, "Nobody shot me."

567 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 4:27:42am

re: #560 000G

Paul Feyerabend

Been a long time since I read that brotha. Nice ref.

568 sattv4u2  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 4:27:54am

re: #563 RogueOne

I didn't say it was right, I said it was fun! Most of the really fun stuff isn't really "right" if you know what I mean, wink wink nudge nudge.

Oh, I understand


I still to this day, some 40 years later, regret that one day our entire hockey team was walking from school to the rink for practice and decided to pick up a compact car and place it on the owners front porch

(don't ask!!)

569 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 4:29:20am

re: #564 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

They can burn crosses on their own lawns, not ours.

What if the lawn is adjacent to yours? What if your lawn is surrounded by lawns on which crosses burn?

570 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 4:29:51am

re: #549 000G

I'll give you a hypothetical case.

A minority X has a "foundational myth" that their ancestors lived in the land Y for 10,000 years. Much of their culture/identity is built on various bits and pieces of information pertaining to this alleged history, which they hold sacred. They even have alleged graves of many of those alleged 10K y.o. ancestors, which they revere.

Now comes a group of researchers who publish studies in which they purport that X actually came to Y from Z only 2000 years ago. They also analyzed the remains buried in the graves and came to a conclusion that those bones belonged to a minority W, rather than X, based on various features.

Most X are outraged and sue the researchers, saying that they denigrate the memory of all the dead in period of 8000 years that the researchers say were not there as well as the particular ancestors in the graves.

Now here is some optional information for the judgment:

a) In their field the researchers are known to be objective and non-ideological. Peers can find no flaws in their studies.

b) In their field the researchers are known to be objective and non-ideological. However, many peers find the studies to be flawed.

c) The researchers are known to be ideologically biased against the minority X. However, peers can find no flaws in their studies.

d) The researchers are known to be ideologically biased against the minority X. Many peers find the studies to be flawed.

571 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 4:30:21am

re: #546 Sergey Romanov

This also pertains to other parts of free speech discussion. The kind of free speech that works in the US works not so much because of the laws but because of the people.

That, but perhaps not in the way you mean. A lot of it comes from having all those 17th c attempts at theocracy.

Didn't work out so well.

572 RogueOne  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 4:30:42am

re: #568 sattv4u2

I don't have my own kids so I have to taint them from a distance. I've been telling my nephew since he was little that when your team loses it's your responsibility to flip a car over and set it on fire.

573 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 4:30:53am

re: #570 Sergey Romanov

Train "A" is going how fast? And when does it need to get to Chicago?

574 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 4:31:32am

re: #567 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

Been a long time since I read that brotha. Nice ref.

A liberal arguing against liberal dogmas, a philosopher arguing against philosophical dogmas. Very good tonic.

575 sattv4u2  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 4:31:50am

re: #572 RogueOne

I don't have my own kids so I have to taint them from a distance. I've been telling my nephew since he was little that when your team loses it's your responsibility to flip a car over and set it on fire.

Okay, but don't get upset if you go out to your driveway and your car is turtled!!!!

576 sattv4u2  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 4:32:08am

re: #573 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Train "A" is going how fast? And when does it need to get to Chicago?

ANSWER

The conductors name was Sam

577 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 4:32:26am

re: #574 000G

A liberal arguing against liberal dogmas, a philosopher arguing against philosophical dogmas. Very good tonic.

Oh, and a scientist arguing against scientistic dogmas. Briliant.

578 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 4:33:11am

re: #571 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

That, but perhaps not in the way you mean. A lot of it comes from having all those 17th c attempts at theocracy.

Didn't work out so well.

What I mean is not that people are "good" of course, but that there is indeed a particular set of circumstances where ideologies like Nazism won't flourish easily. And I'm only talking about the modern US. Certainly post-segregation.

579 RogueOne  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 4:34:08am

re: #575 sattv4u2

Okay, but don't get upset if you go out to your driveway and your car is turtled!!!

True and not every parent thinks I'm funny.

580 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 4:35:59am

re: #570 Sergey Romanov

I think truth should trump. This has also been the case in all trials involving the Protocols of The Elders of Zion (re: why their non-authenticity was an actual legal issue). Think of denigrating the memory of the deceased as simply post-mortem (group) slander. When judging something as slander, truth matters ultimatively, too: If something is true, it cannot be slander.

581 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 4:37:07am

re: #580 000G

What about option b?

582 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 4:37:11am

re: #569 000G

What if the lawn is adjacent to yours?

[shrug]

What if your lawn is surrounded by lawns on which crosses burn?

Then I could have an intimidation case, if the bigots are dumb enough to try it. Make no mistake: they still are. Arroyo Grande is about 4-5 hours drive from me.

We've dealt with this crap for generations. For me, it's not just theoretical.

583 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 4:41:11am

re: #581 Sergey Romanov

What about option b?

In b), the first assesment is a general one, the second one a specific one. Since courts would have to rely on experts to reasonably explain to them the details of judging the findings, and those experts would be coming from the pool of the peers mentioned, I guess that would inevitably tip the scale towards denigration/the findings being legally found to be false/or fake.

But this speculation of course does not touch the question what the actual truth in any specific is. Just idle philosophizing about general process structures.

584 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 4:44:36am

A lot of this is "absolute free speech" advocate stuff is fallacious for the same reason that the libertarian "non-aggression principle" is impractical as a prime rule, btw.

585 RogueOne  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 4:45:47am

New YouTube video appears to show Dallas police officer shove protester off planter before his arrest Saturday
[Link: crimeblog.dallasnews.com...]

A video posted to YouTube (below) Thursday appears to show a Dallas police officer shoved a man off a Bank of America planter during a downtown Occupy Dallas protest last weekend.

The video is the first one to surface that indicates Stephen Benavides did not fall on his own shortly before he was arrested for felony assault on another police officer and resisting arrest. Police had previously said there was no indication Benavides was pushed as he and his supporters have claimed.

Benavides was in the Dallas County Jail until Wednesday night, when he posted more than $50,000 bond on the charges. His confrontation with police last Saturday sparked a riot that included seven other arrests.

Protesters have alleged Dallas police acted overly aggressive in arresting Benavides and others. Dallas police officials said earlier this week that a preliminary review of the handling of the protest revealed no misconduct.

They didn't see anything wrong, there's a shocker. It's in slo-mo too for those that like that kind of thing...///

586 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 4:46:00am

re: #584 000G

A lot of this is "absolute free speech" advocate stuff is fallacious for the same reason that the libertarian "non-aggression principle" is impractical as a prime rule, btw.

The only absolute is death. /

No country has absolute laws, not even places like Saudi Arabia or Iran.

587 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 4:47:40am

re: #583 000G

In b), the first assesment is a general one, the second one a specific one. Since courts would have to rely on experts to reasonably explain to them the details of judging the findings, and those experts would be coming from the pool of the peers mentioned, I guess that would inevitably tip the scale towards denigration/the findings being legally found to be false/or fake.

But this speculation of course does not touch the question what the actual truth in any specific is. Just idle philosophizing about general process structures.

This taken together with the fact that both science and history involve trial and error (which error would happen in option b) is why I'm specifically against laws against historical and scientific claims as "denigration" of this or that (at least unless it is shown that the person behind the claims had a malicious intent). YMMV.

588 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 4:47:47am

re: #586 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

The only absolute is death. /

No country has absolute laws, not even places like Saudi Arabia or Iran.

They have them in theory, it just never works out that way in practice.

Relativism for the win!

589 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 4:53:20am

re: #578 Sergey Romanov

What I mean is not that people are "good" of course, but that there is indeed a particular set of circumstances where ideologies like Nazism won't flourish easily. And I'm only talking about the modern US. Certainly post-segregation.

Yeah, that post came off more flip than I intended. I have to tell you, though, there have been many instances in the past 3 years that the environment here has felt like growing up in 1980s Klanville. There have also been other strides, like rubbing the bigots' noses in DADT.

Speaking of that and speech laws, ppl might be interested in an infamous case in Canada in the early 90s, in which Andrea Dworkin and Catherine McKinnon's feminist censorship theories ended up in a bunch of lgbt materials being confiscated. One form of feminism, anyway.

[Link: plato.stanford.edu...]

The censorship was intended to "protect" women from porn.

ee didn't work so well...

It won't come as a surprise, but I'm on the 180 degree opposite side of them, personally.

590 RogueOne  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 4:53:25am

You people have made me late, I need to get to work. Enjoy the day folks!

591 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 4:54:31am

Just saw this on facebook,

No matter how old you are; no matter how bad ass you think you are; if a toddler hands you their ringing toy phone? You answer it.

592 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 4:55:07am

re: #587 Sergey Romanov

This taken together with the fact that both science and history involve trial and error (which error would happen in option b) is why I'm specifically against laws against historical and scientific claims as "denigration" of this or that (at least unless it is shown that the person behind the claims had a malicious intent). YMMV.

I guess for denigration there would also have to be the finding of the accused knowingly distributing false statements (and no retraction in face of counter-evidence). Of course, you think academia would sort out what is false and what is not eventually. And that the state should not "meddle" in that process, should not be allowed to find and judge on what is fake or false and what not. I disagree. Academia is not and should not be absolutely autonomous, nor is it absolutely definable (see the whole crap with David Irving). Academia has a special status as regards the social aspect of epistemology. But it does not have a special status as regards legal disputes.

593 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 4:55:24am

re: #588 000G

They have them in theory, it just never works out that way in practice.

Relativism for the win!

Ha

Oh yeah, they definitely try, ask me how I know.

594 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 4:57:56am

re: #589 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

It won't come as a surprise, but I'm on the 180 degree opposite side of them, personally.

Sex-positive, I assume? Rules.

595 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 5:01:32am

re: #592 000G

I would dare say many deniers (at least those I observed) don't do their thing "knowingly", unless it involves the redefinition of it as "should have known". They do believe their stuff.

596 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 5:02:28am

re: #594 000G

Sex-positive, I assume? Rules.

Not so much that particular crew (it has some specificity in lgbt culture that has never quite applied to me, but I'm with them, yeah.)

Put it this way, when Susie Bright gave my blog a ringing endorsement when I first started it, well, I still cannot believe that! We correspond every now and then. I admire her work very much.

597 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 5:03:21am

re: #595 Sergey Romanov

I would dare say many deniers (at least those I observed) don't do their thing "knowingly", unless it involves the redefinition of it as "should have known". They do believe their stuff.

I think this would delve into a discussion about legal insanity.

598 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 5:03:52am

re: #597 000G

I think this would delve into a discussion about legal insanity.

No more so than discussing creationists. Or theists.

599 Decatur Deb  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 5:05:53am

re: #597 000G

I think this would delve into a discussion about legal insanity.

And the underpinnings of belief systems. Most people and cultures believe what it 'pays' them to believe.

600 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 5:07:51am

re: #599 Decatur Deb

And the underpinnings of belief systems. Most people and cultures believe what it 'pays' them to believe.

All humans, really. Why would epistemology be exempt from evolution?

601 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 5:09:25am

re: #587 Sergey Romanov

This taken together with the fact that both science and history involve trial and error (which error would happen in option b) is why I'm specifically against laws against historical and scientific claims as "denigration" of this or that (at least unless it is shown that the person behind the claims had a malicious intent). YMMV.

Denigration means to lower status via darkening, so the whole concept would be problematic, anyway. I'm trying to think of real-world cases like the one you lay out, but can't think of any offhand. Is that based on something you've seen?

602 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 5:10:03am

re: #598 Sergey Romanov

No more so than discussing creationists. Or theists.

Yes, "more so". Because creationism versus evolution is not on the same level as "some new archaeological findings" versus "long-held cultural assumptions of some minority". The former conflict has an actual tradition itself, is fought on a magnitude of levels bigger and involves the question of state sponsorship.

603 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 5:12:22am

re: #601 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

See #517.

604 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 5:14:37am

re: #602 000G

Yes, "more so". Because creationism versus evolution is not on the same level as "some new archaeological findings" versus "long-held cultural assumptions". The former conflict has an actual tradition itself, is fought on a magnitude of levels bigger and involves the question of state sponsorship.

No, no more so. We're talking beliefs in spite of evidence and/or beliefs without evidence. None of this involves legal insanity. Deniers aren't insane.

605 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 5:17:48am

re: #603 Sergey Romanov

See #517.

Ah, missed what even kicked off the convo.

Insomnia does this.

606 sattv4u2  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 5:18:01am

To my co-workers

Whomever left the meat (or meat like product) in the fridge that has grown fur and blue spots on it
Whomever left the carton of milk that now has 'chunks" in it
Whomever left the (what I believe at one time was a healthy) banana on the table

You can claim any of the above from the green trash bag inside the blue dumpster out by the front gate

To whomever blew something up in the micro-wave oven, I cleaned your mess
You're welcome!

607 Decatur Deb  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 5:18:43am

re: #603 Sergey Romanov

See #517.

Thought you were riffing off this:

[Link: www.rense.com...]

608 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 5:20:45am

re: #604 Sergey Romanov

No, no more so. We're talking beliefs in spite of evidence and/or beliefs without evidence.

Yes, still more so. Evolution versus creationism is "settled" as far as modern society is concerned. It does not have to be found out in court anymore. "Kitzmiller v. Dover Area School District" was only neccessary because of the ID disguise vehicle.

In cases involving new findings, you can of course leave a lot more assumptions of good faith and opportunities for retraction along the way, etc.

None of this involves legal insanity. Deniers aren't insane.

Legal insanity. As in "was mentally unable to have known".

609 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 5:24:35am

re: #607 Decatur Deb

Ugh. rense...

610 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 5:25:45am

re: #608 000G

Legal insanity. As in "was mentally unable to have known".

Sure, that's what I mean. Creationists and deniers are able to know otherwise, so they're not insane. Being able to know otherwise does not amount to "knowing" for purposes of denigration. I don't know why you suddenly brought legal insanity up.

611 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 5:26:30am

re: #607 Decatur Deb

Thought you were riffing off this:

[Link: www.rense.com...]

I were, in a subsequent comment.

612 Decatur Deb  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 5:29:29am

re: #609 000G

Ugh. rense...

First Kennewick reference Google yielded by "archaeology lawsuit burial". Has nothing much to do with HD.

613 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 5:29:50am

re: #610 Sergey Romanov

Sure, that's what I mean. Creationists and deniers are able to know otherwise, so they're not insane. Being able to know otherwise does not amount to "knowing" for purposes of denigration.

It could play into notions of recklessness.

614 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 5:31:25am

OK, beer time. ;)

615 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 5:53:21am

Let's hope today is not as CRAPTASTIC! as yesterday.

616 sattv4u2  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 5:59:22am

re: #615 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Let's hope today is not as CRAPTASTIC! as yesterday.

Stepped in it, didjya?

617 Decatur Deb  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 6:01:24am

What went to crap yesterday, other than the Penn State mess?

618 sattv4u2  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 6:02:27am

re: #615 Fat Bastard Vegetarian


re: #617 Decatur Deb

What went to crap yesterday, other than the Penn State mess?

He found out that Lil Debbies are raising their prices!!!
//

619 Decatur Deb  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 6:04:05am

re: #618 sattv4u2

re: #617 Decatur Deb

He found out that Lil Debbies are raising their prices!!!
//

Did we find out who was shooting around the White House?

620 sattv4u2  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 6:07:49am

re: #619 Decatur Deb

Did we find out who was shooting around the White House?

Preliminary police reports indicated the shots were fired between two cars on Constitution Avenue between 15th and 17th streets NW, an area adjacent to the President's Park Ellipse and Washington Monument.

[Link: www.ibtimes.com...]

Road rage or gangs?? (leaning to gangs due to "officials reportedly found a deserted car and an AK-47-style rifle in or near the vehicle, in proximity to the shooting incident, ")

621 Decatur Deb  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 6:11:13am

re: #620 sattv4u2

Preliminary police reports indicated the shots were fired between two cars on Constitution Avenue between 15th and 17th streets NW, an area adjacent to the President's Park Ellipse and Washington Monument.

[Link: www.ibtimes.com...]

Road rage or gangs?? (leaning to gangs due to "officials reportedly found a deserted car and an AK-47-style rifle in or near the vehicle, in proximity to the shooting incident, ")

That's about where I dropped out last night. The Obamas should move to a better neighborhood.

622 sattv4u2  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 6:12:18am

re: #621 Decatur Deb

That's about where I dropped out last night. The Obamas should move to a better neighborhood.

I would help them pack for their move out of the White House January 2013!!!

:)

623 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 6:13:29am

re: #622 sattv4u2

I would help them pack for their move out of the White House January 2013!!!

:)

Who do you think should move in?

624 sattv4u2  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 6:14:32am

re: #623 Sergey Romanov

Who do you think should move in?

FBV,,, help brighten his day!

625 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 6:15:37am

re: #624 sattv4u2

FBV,,, help brighten his day!

And seriously? Aside from Romney, is there a sane R candidate you would vote for? Will you vote for Romney? (I'm genuinely curious, not trying to stir shit.)

626 Decatur Deb  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 6:20:00am

re: #625 Sergey Romanov

And seriously? Aside from Romney, is there a sane R candidate you would vote for? Will you vote for Romney? (I'm genuinely curious, not trying to stir shit.)

Romney, Huntsman and Gingrich are sane, just more of the old GOP crap. The others are speaking as though they live in a different dimension.

627 sattv4u2  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 6:20:04am

re: #625 Sergey Romanov

And seriously? Aside from Romney, is there a sane R candidate you would vote for? Will you vote for Romney? (I'm genuinely curious, not trying to stir shit.)

At this point in time, I can honestly say I have no idea

I HATE that the primary season starts so early,, HATE it for many reasons

I have no answer as how to change that, as the discussion above was about free speech and all. I wouldn't want a "law" passed stating you can't campaign/ raise funds earlier than (lets say) a year before the election

It's similar to my disdain for stores putting up Christmas decorations prior to Thanksgiving

IT'S NOT YET TIME!!

OTOH, lets take a Romney or a Ron Paul. They've been campaigning and raising funds since a year or two before the last Pres primary

628 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 6:20:59am

re: #626 Decatur Deb

Romney, Huntsman and Gingrich are sane, just more of the old GOP crap. The others are speaking as though they live in a different dimension.

No, not Gingrich, sorry.

629 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 6:24:12am

re: #627 sattv4u2

Dunno, the earlier the candidates show they're batshit crazy, the better. //

630 Decatur Deb  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 6:24:40am

re: #628 Sergey Romanov

No, not Gingrich, sorry.

He's sane enough to show he can function badly in DC. When I say the others are insane, I'm thinking really delusional or so cynical it makes no difference.

631 sattv4u2  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 6:24:47am

I do have one suggestion

(and again, I see no way to "legally" do this)

Someone running for President that currently holds an elective office (be it a senator, congressman, governor) should give up that office while running (excluding the sitting Pres, that is)

She/he can run for that spot again if he/she loses in either the primary or the general, but I think they should resign till then

632 sattv4u2  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 6:25:28am

re: #629 Sergey Romanov

Dunno, the earlier the candidates show they're batshit crazy, the better. //

No need

Batshit shows almost immediatly

633 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 6:26:17am

re: #631 sattv4u2

I do have one suggestion

(and again, I see no way to "legally" do this)

Someone running for President that currently holds an elective office (be it a senator, congressman, governor) should give up that office while running (excluding the sitting Pres, that is)

She/he can run for that spot again if he/she loses in either the primary or the general, but I think they should resign till then

Good idea, as that takes away from their primary duties. That's not what the voters voted for.

634 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 6:27:23am

re: #633 Sergey Romanov

Good idea, as that takes away from their primary duties. That's not what the voters voted for.

Uh oh, that's unintentionally ambiguous. ;)

635 sattv4u2  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 6:29:11am

And on that note, the long quiet drive home beckons

636 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 6:41:45am

637 Talking Point Detective  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 6:47:12am

re: #626 Decatur Deb

Romney, Huntsman and Gingrich are sane, just more of the old GOP crap. The others are speaking as though they live in a different dimension.

There was almost nothing of significance that i found to distinguish what any of them said during the last debate on the economy - with the exception of Paul having more extreme lunatic views than the rest of the lunatic views they all spouted - including Romney.

Sure - Bachmann et. al. are more open about catering to loons, but they're all doing it.

638 Killgore Trout  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 6:47:41am


Occupy Portland: Police remove truckload of broken rocks, stones from camp as tensions mount

Others, like Patrick Johnson, a volunteer who has supported the movement from the beginning, quietly packed up his gear into a rolling suitcase.

Johnson thinks about 25 percent of the campers will stay and defy the city’s efforts to remove them.

He said it’s that 25 percent of the campers that have caused problems in the community, “and they are the ones that are going to get maced and arrested,” he said.

“They believe that this has not been a successful occupation because nobody got shot, there have been no mace cans to the head…they’re ignorant.

639 Talking Point Detective  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 6:48:41am

re: #628 Sergey Romanov

No, not Gingrich, sorry.

How do you distinguish Gingrich's rhetoric on the economy from the rest of the candidates? What is different about his rhetoric on foreign policy?

640 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 6:51:01am

re: #639 Talking Point Detective

How do you distinguish Gingrich's rhetoric on the economy from the rest of the candidates? What is different about his rhetoric on foreign policy?

They're all catering, but Romney at least has a record of being sane (even if he sold it all out) and Huntsman doesn't come across as insane. I don't know what all the people voting R will be thinking. Seems powerfully irresponsible to me. But then, how many people here voted R (and specifically Palin) the last time? But at least many of them came to regret this decision.

641 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 6:52:20am

re: #638 Killgore Trout

I think it already withered. May as well leave it alone.

642 Talking Point Detective  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 6:55:05am

re: #638 Killgore Trout


Occupy Portland: Police remove truckload of broken rocks, stones from camp as tensions mount

Honest question.

If protesters and/or cops are injured on Sunday, will you feel some sense of vindication?

643 Killgore Trout  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 6:55:33am

re: #641 Sergey Romanov

I think it already withered. May as well leave it alone.

Has it? I think the movement is faltering fast but I'm not seeing many supporters coming to that realization yet. I think I'll pick this scab a while longer.

644 Killgore Trout  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 6:58:11am

re: #642 Talking Point Detective

Honest question.

If protesters and/or cops are injured on Sunday, will you feel some sense of vindication?

No, If some dopes get some pepper sprayed I'm fine with it but I certainly don't want to see anyone injured or killed. That's why I don't support violent or destructive protests. I think that question should be directed at OWS supporters, not me.

645 Decatur Deb  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 6:58:50am

re: #639 Talking Point Detective

How do you distinguish Gingrich's rhetoric on the economy from the rest of the candidates? What is different about his rhetoric on foreign policy?

Heh. I think they are all talking bullshit. The ones I consider non-insane don't seem to believe it.

646 Talking Point Detective  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 6:59:00am

re: #640 Sergey Romanov

They're all catering, but Romney at least has a record of being sane (even if he sold it all out) and Huntsman doesn't come across as insane. I don't know what all the people voting R will be thinking. Seems powerfully irresponsible to me. But then, how many people here voted R (and specifically Palin) the last time? But at least many of them came to regret this decision.

I guess I'm just reluctant to evaluate them based on assumptions about their personalities. They're all mouthing extremist rhetoric. As I see it, Romney may actually be the most dangerous if elected. I think history tells us that often candidates that run more to the extreme ends of the spectrum move to the middle after election. Candidates who run more from the middle, moved to the extremes after election.

If elected, Romney will be working hard to appease the most extreme elements of the Republican base.

Obama's an interesting case. The general perception is that he has moved to the middle after election - although to my eye, he ran as a moderate and that's how he's governed.

647 Talking Point Detective  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 7:00:07am

re: #644 Killgore Trout

No, If some dopes get some pepper sprayed I'm fine with it but I certainly don't want to see anyone injured or killed. That's why I don't support violent or destructive protests. I think that question should be directed at OWS supporters, not me.

There are different "OWS supporters" who have a diversity of views. As I see it, the problem with your approach is that you willfully ignore those differences.

648 Killgore Trout  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 7:00:30am

re: #645 Decatur Deb

Heh. I think they are all talking bullshit. The ones I consider non-insane don't seem to believe it.

It's always a challenge to guess who's pandering and who's genuinely stupid or dangerous.

649 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 7:00:44am

re: #646 Talking Point Detective

> If elected, Romney will be working hard to appease the most extreme elements of the Republican base.

I don't know about that. I hope you're wrong. May as well try to become the "America's President".

650 Talking Point Detective  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 7:01:08am

re: #645 Decatur Deb

Heh. I think they are all talking bullshit. The ones I consider non-insane don't seem to believe it.

Gingrich has some stone cold insanity in his political history.

651 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 7:02:23am

re: #650 Talking Point Detective

Gingrich has some stone cold insanity in his political history.

Yep. Gingrich is hardcore con, never stumbled on that one, unlike Romney.

652 Gus  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 7:03:15am

'Morning.

Patty Murray's staff holds retreat - at lobbying firm
Posted by Jim Brunner

Even as their boss negotiates a delicate deal on how to cut billions of dollars from the federal budget, the state staff of U.S. Sen. Patty Murray is holed up for a two-day retreat at the offices of a prominent Seattle lobbying firm.

Murray, a Democrat now in her fourth term, remains in D.C. co-chairing the deficit-reduction "supercommittee" trying to find ways to reduce the federal deficit by at least $1.2 trillion over 10 years.

But her Washington state staff is spending Tuesday and Wednesday at Strategies 360, the lobbying outfit founded by Democratic political operative Ron Dotzauer. Karen Waters, a former deputy state director for Murray's office, is a senior vice-president at the firm.

Strategies 360 represents dozens of clients with an interest in federal legislation and the budget, according to Senate lobbying disclosures. Its registered clients this year include pharmaceutical companies, public utilities and a solar manufacturer.

Continues.

653 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 7:03:40am

*I wish Jon Stewart was your president.*

654 Gus  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 7:05:27am

I see the problems of the world are resting on the bed of one city pick-up truck constituting of rocks and one piece of plywood. Forget about nuclear proliferation. There's a new threat to global peace -- rocks.

//

655 Talking Point Detective  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 7:05:34am

re: #648 Killgore Trout

It's always a challenge to guess who's pandering and who's genuinely stupid or dangerous.

I don't really think that there's much difference. The differences are (mostly?) only perceived based on identity-based political projections.

They're all driven by the same thing: political expediency. My own personal perception is that Huntsman seems like someone of ethical integrity - who wouldn't jettison humanistic values for the sake of political expediency, but do I really know that to be true about him as compared to Bachmann?

I think if it as being similar to when sports fans think they know something about an athlete's integrity by assessing their body language on the field.

656 Gus  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 7:06:16am

No country for old men. BRB Gotta clear the cache on this boat.

657 Decatur Deb  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 7:08:20am

re: #654 Gus 802

I see the problems of the world are resting on the bed of one city pick-up truck constituting of rocks and one piece of plywood. Forget about nuclear proliferation. There's a new threat to global peace -- rocks.

//

You can argue AK vs M4. Rock vs Glock is just plain stupid.

658 _RememberTonyC  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 7:11:22am

Good morning Lizards ... French President Sarkozy appears to be planning a visit to Israel to mend fences over his recent remarks about Netanyahu ...

[Link: www.jpost.com...]

If this is true, I respect Sarkozy for having the guts to do it.

659 Gus  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 7:15:56am

re: #657 Decatur Deb

You can argue AK vs M4. Rock vs Glock is just plain stupid.

Yeah. Anyway, was thinking about making that news about Senator Murray into a page but decided not to. Starting to get windy here. Was reading about some 21 year old gal around here that walked into a light rail train. She was listening to music. Happened on the 4th and she suffered serious head trauma. Why people walk around listening to music in high density transportation areas is beyond me.

Didn't see much other news other than the usual. Did see a funny Tweet this morning about Gingrich, "who will be the first journalist brave enough to ask Newt whom he will pick to be the first lady." Funny stuff. Those weren't the exact words.

660 Decatur Deb  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 7:22:17am

re: #651 Sergey Romanov

Yep. Gingrich is hardcore con, never stumbled on that one, unlike Romney.

Uh oh, that's unintentionally ambiguous. ;)

661 Killgore Trout  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 7:23:53am

re: #647 Talking Point Detective

There are different "OWS supporters" who have a diversity of views. As I see it, the problem with your approach is that you willfully ignore those differences.

Then you've been misinterpreting my posts. I'm well aware that there are a variety of OWS supporters but by ignoring, excusing and obfuscating for the more extreme and/or violent elements they've fucked themselves. There's been an unhealthy symbiosis in OWS which was partially set up by the original organizers. The coalition of antiwar leftists, liberals, communists and anarchists isn't going to work out very well. Crowds shouting accusations of police brutality while attacking police may provide some nice (and carefully edited) youtube clips but the reality is the "peaceful" elements enable and provide cover for the violent elements. It's not a healthy relationship.

662 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 7:29:29am

re: #660 Decatur Deb

Uh oh, that's unintentionally ambiguous. ;)

The thought did go through my head.

663 Talking Point Detective  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 7:29:41am

re: #661 Killgore Trout

but by ignoring, excusing and obfuscating for the more extreme and/or violent elements they've fucked themselves.

That doesn't accurately describe what I've seen. Nor does it describe anything, even remotely, what people involved have told me about what's going on.

It isn't even consistent with the quotes in the article you just linked. Did you read the entire article, or only the parts that confirmed you bias?

664 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 7:34:12am

OWS is much of a strawman though. Yes, there are unsavory elements among those folks. No, OWS doesn't constitute a potent force. Yes, OWS is right to shout about the Wall Street. No, OWS won't change anything about the Wall Street. Meanwhile the Wall Street gets fat bonuses and nobody posts continous updates about that.

665 Killgore Trout  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 7:34:23am

re: #663 Talking Point Detective

That doesn't accurately describe what I've seen. Nor does it describe anything, even remotely, what people involved have told me about what's going on.

It isn't even consistent with the quotes in the article you just linked. Did you read the entire article, or only the parts that confirmed you bias?

Yes, the hippies tolerated the violent anarchists and are now complaining they're a problem. They shouldn't have been tolerated in the first place.

666 Talking Point Detective  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 7:35:30am

re: #661 Killgore Trout

Here's an article for you to read:

[Link: www.philly.com...]

667 Gus  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 7:36:13am

Think I'll go accomplish something. BIAW

668 Killgore Trout  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 7:36:57am

re: #664 Sergey Romanov

Meanwhile the Wall Street gets fat bonuses and nobody posts continous updates about that.

If you want something done you should do it yourself. Don't expect other people to do it for you.

669 darthstar  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 7:37:10am

Happy 40th to this song.

670 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 7:37:32am

re: #668 Killgore Trout

If you want something done you should do it yourself. Don't expect other people to do it for you.

That's what OWS folks thought.

671 Talking Point Detective  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 7:37:41am

re: #664 Sergey Romanov

OWS is much of a strawman though. Yes, there are unsavory elements among those folks. No, OWS doesn't constitute a potent force. Yes, OWS is right to shout about the Wall Street. No, OWS won't change anything about the Wall Street. Meanwhile the Wall Street gets fat bonuses and nobody posts continous updates about that.

It seems that media discussion about income inequality has increased dramatically in recent weeks - as opposed to "class warfare." It's hard to quantify, and quantifying the impact of that is even harder, but it may not be insignificant and it may be partially the result of OWS.

672 Killgore Trout  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 7:39:08am

re: #666 Talking Point Detective

Here's an article for you to read:

[Link: www.philly.com...]

Good for them, no complaints from me.

673 bratwurst  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 7:39:17am

If you are thinking about paying $79 to see the current Guns N Roses tour, let me save you the money:

Image: AxlRoseCake.jpg

674 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 7:40:02am

re: #668 Killgore Trout

The reason OWS people's aims found support is that so many people are sick of that "rich get richer for nothing" crap. Can't blame them for that. No, OWS is not the solution. At best part of it (tho even that is questionable). But what is?

675 darthstar  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 7:40:29am

re: #673 bratwurst

If you are thinking about paying $79 to see the current Guns N Roses tour, let me save you the money:

Image: AxlRoseCake.jpg

It looks like Axl has eaten most of that cake.

676 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 7:45:54am

re: #358 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

re: #361 Dark_Falcon

I respect you both yet remain sane at the same time. How does that work? Huh? HUUH? BWAHAHAHA

*drool*

/

677 Daniel Ballard  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 7:47:05am

re: #668 Killgore Trout

If you want something done you should do it yourself. Don't expect other people to do it for you.

That is exactly what OWS is attempting to do. Act. Protest. Illustrate the problem. Encourage voters to lean on our leaders.

Since it is of neither party, and therefore no help to either and resistant to co-option we now see the right lie their ass off about it and the left ignore it because it's not a partisan thing.

678 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 7:47:10am

re: #386 JasonA

Dear Dark_Falcon,

You are the biggest supporter of the military industrial complex on this board. Every time one of us asks if a reduction in defense spending is possible, your answer is a resounding "hell no."

This, the actual human cost on our own citizens, this is where you think we can actually talk about saving some money? Really?

I answer that in both cases I'm interested in curbing waste. There are a lot of things in military spending that could be improved and costs reduced, but outright budget cuts won't make the needed changes.

The other reason I oppose DoD spending cuts in simply self-interest: I sell seats to defense conferences, and travel funds tend to be the first to go, even if that wasn't what Congress wanted to do (because money gets reprioritized).

679 darthstar  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 7:50:15am

re: #678 Dark_Falcon

I sell seats to defense conferences,

Can I buy a seat? Bleachers are fine. How much does it cost to go sit with lobbyists?

680 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 7:51:00am

Caption: some don't take life's lessons seriously.

Image: 1250925129941.jpg

681 darthstar  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 7:59:53am

re: #679 darthstar

Can I buy a seat? Bleachers are fine. How much does it cost to go sit with lobbyists?

This one looks fun!

Air Power in Irregular Warfare
Aviator Hotel, Farnborough, UK
November 28-30, 2011

682 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 8:11:50am

re: #644 Killgore Trout

No, If some dopes get some pepper sprayed I'm fine with it but I certainly don't want to see anyone injured or killed. That's why I don't support violent or destructive protests. I think that question should be directed at OWS supporters, not me.

Quite Concur.

683 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 8:11:59am

re: #651 Sergey Romanov

Yep. Gingrich is hardcore con, never stumbled on that one, unlike Romney.

Ahem:

[Link: www.tnr.com...]
[Link: www.wnd.com...]
[Link: www.weeklystandard.com...]
[Link: thinkprogress.org...]
[Link: www.csmonitor.com...]
[Link: www.examiner.com...]

684 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 8:13:24am

re: #644 Killgore Trout

No, If some dopes get some pepper sprayed I'm fine with it but I certainly don't want to see anyone injured or killed. That's why I don't support violent or destructive protests. I think that question should be directed at OWS supporters, not me.

Change of heart?

685 Killgore Trout  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 8:14:13am

re: #684 000G

Not at all.

686 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 8:15:04am

re: #679 darthstar

Can I buy a seat? Bleachers are fine. How much does it cost to go sit with lobbyists?

No lobbyists to be seen, we only seat people from solution providers themselves. The subject matter is more of a technical nature, such as improving helmet design to prevent brain injury, and lobbyists tend not to be interested in such things. I also try to find smaller firms as well as larger ones to ensure a good mix of solution providers.

687 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 8:18:49am

re: #683 000G

I stand corrected on "never stumbled". Still refuse to see him as sane.

688 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 8:19:02am

re: #685 Killgore Trout

Not at all.

So you just pretended to be gloating at violence?

689 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 8:20:35am

How the GOP Became the Party of the Rich
The inside story of how the Republicans abandoned the poor and the middle class to pursue their relentless agenda of tax cuts for the wealthiest one percent

[Link: www.rollingstone.com...]

690 Decatur Deb  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 8:21:20am

Jeez--another debate tonight. Who sets the schedule, the National Distillers' Association?

691 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 8:23:57am

re: #690 Decatur Deb

I notice that the partners are always very.... dissonant. "Fox News and Google", "CNN and Tea Party Express"... this time it's "CBS and South Carolina Republican Party".

692 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 8:24:25am

re: #690 Decatur Deb

Jeez--another debate tonight. Who sets the schedule, the National Distillers' Association?

Ha ha, they are actually watering the field down with this many.

693 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 8:25:36am

A plane just flew overhead (see below) with a sign that, according to multiple witnesses, reads: "Joe is so dirty he needs a shower."

[Link: www.tmz.com...]

694 allegro  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 8:28:49am

Hmm, this sounds very familiar somehow...

The expanded Wall Street Occupation is endorsed by labor unions, liberal mayors, governors, the White House, the American Nazi and Communist parties, ACORN, Hollywood enertainers and a long list of supra-liberal and liberal groups, not the least of which is the liberal media.

Encampments in major cities, including Washington, DC, are not only a nuisance, a health hazard and an embarassment to thinking Americans, they are increasingly becoming violent. Ideological anarchists intimidate and abuse bystanders, damage automobiles, jump on and in front of moving vehicles, urinate and defacate on private and public property, go naked and perform sex acts in public, produce tons of garbage that taxpayers have to collect and haul away, etc. Yet the mainstream press, which villainized the Tea Party movement, after long ignoring it, flagrantly idealizes the Occupiers and ignores the damage and ugly crimes happening in most places where an occupation is in progress. Fortunately the movement is "losing its bloom," and beginning to die out. The honeymoon among these diverse activists may be coming to an end

From the Family Research Council.

695 Decatur Deb  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 8:29:07am

re: #693 Stanley Sea

A plane just flew overhead (see below) with a sign that, according to multiple witnesses, reads: "Joe is so dirty he needs a shower."

[Link: www.tmz.com...]

Grim.

696 wrenchwench  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 8:33:58am

Hey, once a Page is promoted, one can upding one's own!

Now I have to go upding all the good comments....

697 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 8:34:04am

re: #689 000G

Eyeroll at Rolling Stone. They've had it in for Republicans for decades. This is just their latest bit of partisan mud to sling.

698 Daniel Ballard  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 8:34:40am

re: #694 allegro

Lovely folks. No agenda at all.
///

From their site
Homosexuality

Family Research Council believes that homosexual conduct is harmful to the persons who engage in it and to society at large, and can never be affirmed.

699 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 8:35:14am

re: #697 Dark_Falcon

Your partisan defense is appreciated. :-)

700 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 8:36:33am

re: #698 Rightwingconspirator

LGF's been covering the FRC for years.

701 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 8:37:45am

re: #696 wrenchwench

Hey, once a Page is promoted, one can upding one's own!

Now I have to go upding all the good comments...

Congrats, BTW.

702 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 8:37:58am

re: #698 Rightwingconspirator

Lovely folks. No agenda at all.
///

From their site
Homosexuality

Family Research Council believes that homosexual conduct is harmful to the persons who engage in it and to society at large, and can never be affirmed.

They're just butthurt. //

703 makeitstop  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 8:39:25am

re: #697 Dark_Falcon

Eyeroll at Rolling Stone. They've had it in for Republicans for decades. This is just their latest bit of partisan mud to sling.

True though it may be.

704 Obdicut  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 8:39:34am

re: #697 Dark_Falcon

It's not 'just' that, any more than Orwell's essays were 'just' the point of of view of a socialist, or Teddy Roosevelt's writings 'just' the view of a progressive.

Saying something is partisan doesn't allow you to say it's 'just' partisan. That takes actual demonstration of how it being partisan detracts from it.

I'm highly partisan towards democracy over other forms of governance; that doesn't mean that someone can dismiss my views on government as 'just' that of a partisan for democracy.

705 wiffersnapper  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 8:41:01am

Truly incredible

706 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 8:42:51am

re: #704 Obdicut

It's not 'just' that, any more than Orwell's essays were 'just' the point of of view of a socialist, or Teddy Roosevelt's writings 'just' the view of a progressive.

Saying something is partisan doesn't allow you to say it's 'just' partisan. That takes actual demonstration of how it being partisan detracts from it.

I'm highly partisan towards democracy over other forms of governance; that doesn't mean that someone can dismiss my views on government as 'just' that of a partisan for democracy.

All true. But to be an MBF a bit, I see a lot of this approach towards R/convervative authors these days at LGF. And I can't even say I don't like it ;)

707 Obdicut  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 8:42:58am

This sucks.

Porn star quits porn, is now trying to help kids with literacy problems. Parents freak out, afraid to have teh sex near their children.

[Link: www.tmz.com...]

This is more of our fucked-up mentality towards women, where if a woman has ever been promiscuous, that defines her forever. Fuck that. She's trying to do good in the world. People trying to stop her are jackasses.


Also, well, if a teenage boy hears a hot girl saying that he should read more, it's probably going to have more of an impact than if it's Wilford Brimley.

EDIT: I see she's reading to 1st and 3rd graders. What are the parents worried about, that their kids are going to magically intuit that this girl used to be a porn star? If they recognize her, then the 'problem' already happened. It's all just dumb.

708 wrenchwench  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 8:43:10am

re: #701 Sergey Romanov

Congrats, BTW.

Thanks. The credit should go to Chester Nez, and my sister who wanted to see the land Tony Hillerman wrote about when she came to visit in 2007, so I could take that photo.

709 Obdicut  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 8:45:22am

re: #706 Sergey Romanov

All true. But to be an MBF a bit, I see a lot of this approach towards R/convervative authors these days at LGF. And I can't even say I don't like it ;)

I don't really know of any conservative authors. Authors like VDH I guess could be called conservative, but I really think it's just about the paycheck at this point. And I quite often will demonstrate the factual errors and logical fallacies in his pieces; it doesn't take time.

People like Rush, Coulter, etc. can be 'dismissed' as partisan because they're simply obviously not even trying to present a serious argument.

Stuff from places like Reason magazine shouldn't be just dismissed, but engaged with and have the errors of it demonstrated.

If the Rolling Stone piece has errors caused by partisan blindness, then DF can demonstrate them.

710 Daniel Ballard  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 8:51:39am

re: #697 Dark_Falcon

This seems to be the favorite rant. But ignore it, as it's just anger talking. I see this-The counterproductive side of that focus is tax policy will not fix unemployment. But if you fix unemployment you fix the revenue problem. You fix the poverty problem in significant part. You fix the housing crisis in significant part. A healthy fix, not a high tax revenue dependent fix.

But the misaligned focus is hurt the rich. Take their money and... Do what? Extend unemployment benefits? Reduce the deficit? Neither of those things address unemployment either. Infrastructure spending can only last so long.

711 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 8:52:48am

re: #707 Obdicut

This sucks.

Porn star quits porn, is now trying to help kids with literacy problems. Parents freak out, afraid to have teh sex near their children.

[Link: www.tmz.com...]

This is more of our fucked-up mentality towards women, where if a woman has ever been promiscuous, that defines her forever. Fuck that. She's trying to do good in the world. People trying to stop her are jackasses.

Also, well, if a teenage boy hears a hot girl saying that he should read more, it's probably going to have more of an impact than if it's Wilford Brimley.

EDIT: I see she's reading to 1st and 3rd graders. What are the parents worried about, that their kids are going to magically intuit that this girl used to be a porn star? If they recognize her, then the 'problem' already happened. It's all just dumb.

It's dumb, but sadly this particular bias is not confined to socons, nor is it confined to the USA. It seems universal in the Western world.

712 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 8:55:34am

re: #711 Dark_Falcon

It's dumb, but sadly this particular bias is not confined to socons, nor is it confined to the USA. It seems universal in the Western world.

Not just Western. Anti-female-sexuality bias is global.

713 Darth Vader Gargoyle  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 8:56:37am
714 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 8:58:09am

re: #710 Rightwingconspirator

Take their money and... Do what?

Redistribute it. Fast and progressively. Level the damn playing field.

715 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 8:58:55am

re: #714 000G

Oh, and build in legislative fixes that prevent the thing from bouncing back to Banana Republic levels quickly.

716 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 8:59:29am

re: #714 000G

damn soshulist

717 Darth Vader Gargoyle  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 8:59:36am

re: #714 000G

Redistribute it. Fast and progressively. Level the damn playing field.

Each according to his or her need?

718 Daniel Ballard  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 9:00:35am
Redistribute it. Fast and progressively. Level the damn playing field.

How does that solve the jobs problem?

719 Obdicut  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 9:00:37am

re: #710 Rightwingconspirator

Increased government spending in a recession, which was acknowledged by everyone on all sides as a simple, common sense need, would reduce unemployment. Prior to Obama's election, the only people who thought otherwise were Ron Paul type morons. Bush's response to recesson was not just to cut taxes but also to increase spending. The former causes much larger problems and did very little, if anything, to help.

It is still astonishing to me that the Paulian economic views so quickly swamped the GOP and gained credence in the 'middle' Not just here in the US, but across the globe, austerity has been prolonging the recession, making it worse, and meanwhile doing nothing to address the systemic problems. The meltdown did not occur because of government debt, but because of private debt. Government was the institution stable and solid enough to bail out the private sector.

I know that some of the blame goes to the unending stream of propaganda from sources like the Club for Growth and Americans for Prosperity and the other front groups, but I do think that the GOPers talking out both sides of their mouths, lambasting government spending while doing all they can to suck it in for their own districts, bear a great deal of responsibility. They obviously know better, they obviously want spending to happen in their districts, they just don't want to pay for it.

The issue of appropriate tax rates and the issue of appropriate spending are not joined at the hip. We need a certain amount of spending. To achieve that level, we should have levels of taxation sufficient to provide for most, and borrow what we can't in recession, and then reduce spending in boom times where government is less needed. But this only works if, during boom times, the ordinary working man is profitng from those boom times.

If the need for government services doesn't drop when the economy soars- as over the past 30 years, where real income for the middle and lower class remained flat while the ultrawealthy raked it in-- then the government needs to keep spending even during the boom times, the times when it should be paying back the deficits that it accrued in the recessions.

And that is where our system is wildly out of balance. We have an economy that continuously increases the wealth disparity. The need for government assistance will continue to grow until we fix it, and cutting spending won't make the problems that the spending is supposed to address go away. That's what infuriates me about the GOP's attitude. It's as though they think once government stops spending money on a problem, the problem vanishes.

Reality, harshly, says otherwise.

720 Darth Vader Gargoyle  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 9:01:19am

re: #718 Rightwingconspirator

Would you regard Rolling Stone as neutral toward the right over the years or lately? They chose sides long ago. Which is appropriate to that kind of publication. But I'll not be pretending otherwise. They have a strong Democratic partisan bent. Again fine with me. re:

Proving or disproving that would take a big study or a careful read of most of their work. Neither opportunity presents itself in a blog post.
re: #714 000G

How does that solve the jobs problem?

Who needs a job if you have the rich peoples' money!!!

721 Daniel Ballard  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 9:01:40am

re: #718 Rightwingconspirator

How does that solve the jobs problem?

Whew thanks pencil!~ For a sec I had a half formed (poor) post in there.

722 wrenchwench  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 9:01:55am

re: #713 rwdflynavy

Jay-Z Selling Occupy Wall Street T-Shirts; No Plans to Share Profits With Protestors

It's not personal, It's just business.
//

I heard this morning that Penn State fans won't change the name of "Paternoville", where they camp out for tickets, because they still have merchandise to sell.

723 Obdicut  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 9:02:03am

re: #711 Dark_Falcon

It's dumb, but sadly this particular bias is not confined to socons, nor is it confined to the USA. It seems universal in the Western world.

No, other cultures are a lot more relaxed about sex than we are. The US is quite puritanical when compared to many European nations. The widespread view in the US that exposure to sexuality is toxic for kids is, I think, linked to our deep-rooted religiosity.

724 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 9:02:15am

re: #717 rwdflynavy

Each according to his or her need?

In the manner that it is an actual redistribution. And I'm not talking about doing this once a year or anything or even going down a road where'd you have to do that.

I'm talking about a redistribution like they had when they created Rome. Level the damn playing field.

725 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 9:03:19am

re: #718 Rightwingconspirator

How does that solve the jobs problem?

Would give a lot of poor people and small businesses money to start up their own businesses / expand their businesses and employ more people. Right now credit is not arriving at the bottom.

726 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 9:03:32am

Need I remind everyone that one of the communist principles is "those who do not work, do not eat"? That it coincides with Randism is not at all surprising, extremes meet.

727 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 9:03:41am

re: #714 000G

Redistribute it. Fast and progressively. Level the damn playing field.

Bad damn idea. Using government to fling money around like that does not work, and moreover results in a massive disincentive to excel. For what is the point of building up a business to world-class status if that only earns you vilification and punitive taxation.

728 Darth Vader Gargoyle  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 9:04:47am

re: #725 000G

Would give a lot of poor people and small businesses money to start up their own businesses / expand their businesses and employ more people. Right now credit is not arriving at the bottom.

Why start a business if the government is just going to take it away from me for someone whose playing field isn't as level?

729 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 9:05:00am

re: #727 Dark_Falcon

Bad damn idea. Using government to fling money around like that does not work

NEWSFLASH: It's already been done. This is the reason you are in the hole you are, as a country. My pro-tipp: Do it right: from the top to the bottom, not the other way around.

Spare me the anti-communist bullshit, please.

730 Obdicut  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 9:05:33am

re: #718 Rightwingconspirator

I didn't say they weren't partisan. I said they weren't 'just' partisan. Being partisan is not in itself problematic in the least. I'm highly partisan towards secular democracy.

And Rolling Stone very often lambastes Democrats who take positions that oppose that of Rolling Stone's. So calling them partisan towards the Democrats, rather than partisan towards an ideology that overlaps strongly with the Democrats, is inaccurate.

731 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 9:06:17am

re: #726 Sergey Romanov

Need I remind everyone that one of the communist principles is "those who do not work, do not eat"? That it coincides with Randism is not at all surprising, extremes meet.

It's also from the Bible: [Link: www.biblegateway.com...]

732 Decatur Deb  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 9:06:29am

Nate Silver has put up a spectacular set of graphs showing GOP candidate trends for the last month or so. Take-away: Romney is clear leader, but not inevitable.

[Link: fivethirtyeight.blogs.nytimes.com...]

733 blueraven  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 9:06:45am

re: #727 Dark_Falcon

Bad damn idea. Using government to fling money around like that does not work, and moreover results in a massive disincentive to excel. For what is the point of building up a business to world-class status if that only earns you vilification and punitive taxation.

So its OK with you if a very big chunk of the wealth in this country is in the hands of a very few?

That didn't work out too well in the 20s.

734 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 9:07:02am

re: #728 rwdflynavy

Why start a business if the government is just going to take it away from me for someone whose playing field isn't as level?

Read #724 and #715.

735 Daniel Ballard  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 9:08:00am

re: #719 Obdicut

Increased government spending in a recession, which was acknowledged by everyone on all sides as a simple, common sense need, would reduce unemployment. Prior to Obama's election, the only people who thought otherwise were Ron Paul type morons. Bush's response to recesson was not just to cut taxes but also to increase spending. The former causes much larger problems and did very little, if anything, to help.

Under taxing the rich did not cause our unemployment situation.

Government spending is a stopgap. General economic growth with the attached jobs is the real deal.

736 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 9:08:28am

re: #731 000G

It's also from the Bible: [Link: www.biblegateway.com...]

The Moral Code I cited was partially based on the Bible (no joking). So...

737 Darth Vader Gargoyle  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 9:08:34am

re: #734 000G

Read #724 and #715.

I did. I don't want the government to take away my wealth that I earned and saved.

738 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 9:08:43am

re: #727 Dark_Falcon

what is the point of building up a business to world-class status if that only earns you vilification and punitive taxation.

This is also happening right now. And should not happen. The big mega-corporations on this planet thrive more than ever. Nobody likes them.

739 Obdicut  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 9:09:15am

re: #720 rwdflynavy

Who needs a job if you have the are rich peoples' money!!!

I thought it was funny when Michele Bachmann said "If anyone shall not work, neither should he eat", given that a lot of the ultrawealthy don't work. So is she proposing that we tax unearned income highly? Of course not, but it betrays the illogic running through her position.

The GOP pretends that wealth in capitalism is accrued mainly through labor. It's not. It's created by labor, but it's those who control capital who accrue wealth at the fastest clip. And many of those who invest capital do no work.

740 Darth Vader Gargoyle  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 9:09:34am

re: #738 000G

This is also happening right now. And should not happen. The big mega-corporations on this planet thrive more than ever. Nobody likes them.

Except all the people they employ and the customers who buy their stuff.

741 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 9:09:56am

re: #737 rwdflynavy

I did. I don't want the government to take away my wealth that I earned and saved.

I don't think you understand what "progressively" means, then.

742 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 9:10:05am

re: #737 rwdflynavy

I did. I don't want the government to take away my wealth that I earned and saved.

Unless you're against any taxes, that's what will always happen.

743 Daniel Ballard  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 9:10:18am

re: #725 000G

Would give a lot of poor people and small businesses money to start up their own businesses / expand their businesses and employ more people. Right now credit is not arriving at the bottom.

SBA loans and such will help. But again, that's stopgap. Not long term.

744 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 9:10:58am

re: #739 Obdicut

I thought it was funny when Michele Bachmann said "If anyone shall not work, neither should he eat",

We need new HUAC, it seems. ///

745 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 9:11:15am

re: #740 rwdflynavy

Except all the people they employ and the customers who buy their stuff.

Uh, no. I can guarantee you that the employees and customers in general do not love the big mega-corporations. They are just stuck with them, for the most part.

746 Darth Vader Gargoyle  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 9:11:30am

re: #739 Obdicut

I thought it was funny when Michele Bachmann said "If anyone shall not work, neither should he eat", given that a lot of the ultrawealthy don't work. So is she proposing that we tax unearned income highly? Of course not, but it betrays the illogic running through her position.

The GOP pretends that wealth in capitalism is accrued mainly through labor. It's not. It's created by labor, but it's those who control capital who accrue wealth at the fastest clip. And many of those who invest capital do no work.

I think you might need to explain how you define work. I think Warren Buffet works very hard. Do you?

747 Digital Display  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 9:11:32am

re: #729 000G

NEWSFLASH: It's already been done. This is the reason you are in the hole you are, as a country. My pro-tipp: Do it right: from the top to the bottom, not the other way around.

Spare me the anti-communist bullshit, please.

I don't understand your plan...How would it work? How would you level the field top to bottom? Would you take my money away?

748 allegro  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 9:11:44am

Evening the playing field isn't about giving money away. It's about literally evening the playing field. This means anti-trust laws and enforcement. It means that municipalities don't build infrastructure, waive sales taxes, etc. for the big box stores while the small family businesses pay for those give-aways via their taxes to companies who are going to destroy them. It means usery laws and enforcement to stop the depredation on those at the economic bottom. It's enforcing the laws on the books to punish fraud. Etc.

749 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 9:12:03am

re: #743 Rightwingconspirator

SBA loans and such will help. But again, that's stopgap. Not long term.

No, not loans. Transfer. Loans make no sense, because there is no collateral.

750 Darth Vader Gargoyle  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 9:12:15am

re: #741 000G

I don't think you understand what "progressively" means, then.

I do, I'm afraid you do not.

751 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 9:12:21am

re: #146 albusteve

why do Catholics hate little boys?

What is it with you and whole large swaths of people only joined by faith or ethnicity?

752 Darth Vader Gargoyle  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 9:12:59am

re: #747 HoosierHoops

I don't understand your plan...How would it work? How would you level the field top to bottom? Would you take my money away?

Don't worry, it will be done "progressively".
//

753 Obdicut  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 9:13:42am

re: #735 Rightwingconspirator

Under taxing the rich did not cause our unemployment situation.

And I didn't say it did, so I have no clue why you're saying that back to me. That statement has nothing to do with anything that I said.

Government spending is a stopgap. General economic growth with the attached jobs is the real deal.

No. Government spending is a necessity. We really do need the patent office, the post office, policemen, firemen, the office of weights and measures, we need food safety testers, we need building inspectors, we need government to fund basic science. Government spending is an absolute and total necessity. It is not a stopgap, and the jobs that come from government spending are every bit as real as the private sector jobs. Many of them are more real. A scientists using a government grant to research cancer treatment is creating far more 'wealth' than some ad guy coming up with the new ad campaign for Stoli. The latter is not actually creating anything of real value whatsoever.

The point is that we have to, we really have to, have an economy where wealth does not accrue continuously in a small percentage. It is obvious, totally obvious, that that is not a sustainable economy. The way to prevent that is not primarily pure redistribution-- though I'm a big fan of hefty estate taxes NOT because I actually want to take large amounts from the estates of the ultrawealthy but because it encourages them to keep the money flowing, and that is the lifeblood of our economy, the velocity of money and the middle and lower class having money in their pockets to spend.

754 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 9:14:21am

BBL

755 Obdicut  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 9:14:56am

re: #746 rwdflynavy

I think you might need to explain how you define work. I think Warren Buffet works very hard. Do you?

Yes. I don't think that all the people who just buy Berkshire Hathaway stocks work hard. Do you?

756 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 9:15:05am

re: #747 HoosierHoops

I don't understand your plan...How would it work? How would you level the field top to bottom? Would you take my money away?

1) Analyze where the money is (and where it is missing) and how it is accumulated
2) Redistribute: The more money you have, the more you give/the less you receive. Aim is roughly levelled playing field, keeping different prices of living and such into account.

757 Daniel Ballard  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 9:16:21am

re: #730 Obdicut

I didn't say they weren't partisan. I said they weren't 'just' partisan. Being partisan is not in itself problematic in the least. I'm highly partisan towards secular democracy.

And Rolling Stone very often lambastes Democrats who take positions that oppose that of Rolling Stone's. So calling them partisan towards the Democrats, rather than partisan towards an ideology that overlaps strongly with the Democrats, is inaccurate.

When someone says "partisan" to me I expect they mean fealty to a party. Not just ideas. The definition of the term is party loyalty. Which IMO is very, very harmful. Party ahead of principle is how we got where we are in this divided landscape. I don't think it's a good idea to broaden the term.

758 Obdicut  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 9:16:49am

re: #757 Rightwingconspirator

Well, then calling Rolling Stone 'partisan' is simply wrong.

759 Darth Vader Gargoyle  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 9:17:24am

re: #755 Obdicut

Yes. I don't think that all the people who just buy Berkshire Hathaway stocks work hard. Do you?

Nope, but I don't think everyone should have to work "hard". If someone lives on a trust fund they spend money, hire people and generally keep that money velocity moving. They don't just sit on a pile of $100 bills counting it over and over all day.

760 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 9:17:51am

re: #719 Obdicut

Increased government spending in a recession, which was acknowledged by everyone on all sides as a simple, common sense need, would reduce unemployment. Prior to Obama's election, the only people who thought otherwise were Ron Paul type morons. Bush's response to recesson was not just to cut taxes but also to increase spending. The former causes much larger problems and did very little, if anything, to help.

It is still astonishing to me that the Paulian economic views so quickly swamped the GOP and gained credence in the 'middle' Not just here in the US, but across the globe, austerity has been prolonging the recession, making it worse, and meanwhile doing nothing to address the systemic problems. The meltdown did not occur because of government debt, but because of private debt. Government was the institution stable and solid enough to bail out the private sector.

I know that some of the blame goes to the unending stream of propaganda from sources like the Club for Growth and Americans for Prosperity and the other front groups, but I do think that the GOPers talking out both sides of their mouths, lambasting government spending while doing all they can to suck it in for their own districts, bear a great deal of responsibility. They obviously know better, they obviously want spending to happen in their districts, they just don't want to pay for it.

The issue of appropriate tax rates and the issue of appropriate spending are not joined at the hip. We need a certain amount of spending. To achieve that level, we should have levels of taxation sufficient to provide for most, and borrow what we can't in recession, and then reduce spending in boom times where government is less needed. But this only works if, during boom times, the ordinary working man is profitng from those boom times.

If the need for government services doesn't drop when the economy soars- as over the past 30 years, where real income for the middle and lower class remained flat while the ultrawealthy raked it in-- then the government needs to keep spending even during the boom times, the times when it should be paying back the deficits that it accrued in the recessions.

And that is where our system is wildly out of balance. We have an economy that continuously increases the wealth disparity. The need for government assistance will continue to grow until we fix it, and cutting spending won't make the problems that the spending is supposed to address go away. That's what infuriates me about the GOP's attitude. It's as though they think once government stops spending money on a problem, the problem vanishes.

Reality, harshly, says otherwise.

I have a different opinion on the nature of debt, but otherwise I completely agree. Well said.

761 Obdicut  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 9:18:23am

re: #758 Obdicut

Well, then calling Rolling Stone 'partisan' is simply wrong.

And, as a whole, if it's just 'loyalty to a party', then partisanship is incredibly rare. Almost everyone in the GOP and the Democrats, even elected officials, can be shown being hostile to and critical of their party's positions at times. The GOP has been unusually closed-ranks in voting, but that's more tactical than ideological.

762 Digital Display  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 9:18:30am

re: #752 rwdflynavy

Don't worry, it will be done "progressively".
//

I knew I should have slept less in Econ 101..
In 5 days I'm getting a big bonus.. Nobody else in this world earned it but me..Nobody else worked late and on weekends..Nobody else got up at 3am with a call to fix something..I did..
My first job when I got married was 3.35/hr..I earned that money now I pay 25k/yr in Taxes.. I think I pay enough thank you

763 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 9:19:33am

re: #723 Obdicut

No, other cultures are a lot more relaxed about sex than we are. The US is quite puritanical when compared to many European nations. The widespread view in the US that exposure to sexuality is toxic for kids is, I think, linked to our deep-rooted religiosity.

I will say this: When it doesn't come to kids, the US oftentimes even beats Europe at being liberal about sex. It's only the kids issue that is weird in the US. I don't know whether it's all religion's fault, though.

764 makeitstop  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 9:19:43am

re: #758 Obdicut

Well, then calling Rolling Stone 'partisan' is simply wrong.

It's just a very easy way to discredit their content regardless of its veracity.

Did DF say the article was wrong? Nope, just that the source is 'partisan.' If the article is fact-based, dismissing it as partisan is also wrong.

Can anyone, at this point, argue that the Republican party is not working for the wealthy?

765 Darth Vader Gargoyle  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 9:20:35am

re: #762 HoosierHoops

I knew I should have slept less in Econ 101..
In 5 days I'm getting a big bonus.. Nobody else in this world earned it but me..Nobody else worked late and on weekends..Nobody else got up at 3am with a call to fix something..I did..
My first job when I got married was 3.35/hr..I earned that money now I pay 25k/yr in Taxes.. I think I pay enough thank you

So you admit that you make more and more each year!!! REDISTRIBUTE and level the playing field Hoosier!!!
//

766 Obdicut  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 9:21:03am

re: #764 makeitstop

The GOP, as far as I can tell, is proudly saying that they work for the wealthy. They're saying that they're the 'job creators' and the true source of all wealth. It's a rather odd inversion of capitalism; they're calling the people with the capital the source of the capital, in an amazing redoubt of circular logic.

767 Darth Vader Gargoyle  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 9:21:52am

Later lizards. Little ones want lunch.

768 darthstar  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 9:22:15am

One man protest at Penn State

With a thick piece of black duct tape covering the Penn State logo on his baseball cap and a pair of signs criticizing the university, Jon Matko knew he wasn’t going to make many friends at Beaver Stadium on Saturday. But he didn’t care.

The 2000 Penn State graduate and father of a 4-year-old boy said he felt he had to do something to remind Nittany Lions fans about the victims in the school’s sexual abuse scandal. So while kids posed for pictures next to the Joe Paterno statue and others chanted, “We Are” before Saturday’s game, Matko stood on a street just outside the stadium quietly holding his signs and accepting the abuse that came with it.

769 Obdicut  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 9:22:20am

re: #765 rwdflynavy

You didn't bother to answer me:

Do you think that someone who invests in Berkshire Hathaway stock is doing work by doing so? If they simply bought the stock and then sell it after it rises in value, because they know Warren Buffet is doing the work of running it and they trust him to increase its value?

What work are they performing?

770 Daniel Ballard  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 9:22:59am

re: #753 Obdicut

And I didn't say it did, so I have no clue why you're saying that back to me. That statement has nothing to do with anything that I said.

That was direct6ed at the main point of the article in support of my contention about the misapplied focus of that line of thinking. Not at you. To the degree you support the article it might apply indirectly, that's your call.

No. Government spending is a necessity.

I never suggested an end to government spending. Ever.
Spending we ascribe to "priming the pump" extending safety nets, infrastructure upgrades are stopgap measures. Fine. At the end of the day it's the overall economy that makes or breaks a nations economy. Not just the gov.

771 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 9:23:11am

re: #735 Rightwingconspirator

Under taxing the rich did not cause our unemployment situation.

You think there is no link between unemployment (and the slump in the labor force participation rate) and extreme wealth inequality?

772 Obdicut  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 9:23:11am

re: #768 darthstar

The behavior of the Penn State students, to me, is a very good example of what partisanship is.

773 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 9:25:07am

re: #744 Sergey Romanov

We need new HUAC, it seems. ///

Anti-communism has seriously warped people's perception and understanding of reality.

774 Obdicut  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 9:25:24am

re: #770 Rightwingconspirator

I never suggested an end to government spending. Ever.
Spending we ascribe to "priming the pump" extending safety nets, infrastructure upgrades are stopgap measures. Fine. At the end of the day it's the overall economy that makes or breaks a nations economy. Not just the gov.

Which is what I said. That increased government spending during a recession should be to get us through until the economy soars again-- but if the soaring economy does not distribute the wealth evenly, then the need for government spending does not actually decrease.

The need for those 'stopgap' measures, the safety nets, only goes down if the wealth created during the rise in the economy makes its way to the middle and lower class. The need for it does not go away if only the ultrawealthy benefit. And that is a large part of why were in this fucked up situation.

775 darthstar  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 9:25:36am

re: #772 Obdicut

The behavior of the Penn State students, to me, is a very good example of what partisanship is.

I suspect half of the people at last night's vigil were also there for the riots...they're students. They're easily manipulated by emotion. "They fired JoePa! Let's all go protest!" Two days later, "Oh, this looks bad...we should go show how reasonable we are so we can celebrate Saturday without guilt."

776 bratwurst  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 9:26:18am

re: #772 Obdicut

The behavior of the Penn State students, to me, is a very good example of what partisanship is.

Indeed...tribalism at its most tribalistic.

777 Daniel Ballard  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 9:26:25am

re: #771 000G

You think there is no link between unemployment (and the slump in the labor force participation rate) and extreme wealth inequality?

It's a weak link if compared to globalization.

778 blueraven  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 9:26:39am

re: #757 Rightwingconspirator

When someone says "partisan" to me I expect they mean fealty to a party. Not just ideas. The definition of the term is party loyalty. Which IMO is very, very harmful. Party ahead of principle is how we got where we are in this divided landscape. I don't think it's a good idea to broaden the term.

Rolling Stone writes an awful lot criticizing this president and democrats in general. I wouldn't say they were partisan so much as ideological.

779 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 9:27:09am

re: #748 allegro

Evening the playing field isn't about giving money away.

It must not be just that. But it has to be that also. Money influences politics influences legislation influences where the money goes. Fixing only one side of the equation will not work.

780 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 9:27:28am

re: #750 rwdflynavy

I do, I'm afraid you do not.

Teach me.

781 Daniel Ballard  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 9:27:41am

re: #758 Obdicut

Well, then calling Rolling Stone 'partisan' is simply wrong.

Simply wrong as in factually wrong?
Not hardly, it's a matter of opinion. Ours differ.

782 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 9:28:00am

re: #773 000G

Anti-communism has seriously warped people's perception and understanding of reality.

As much as I would want to respond with "but, but, but the crimes...", it is also true in a way.

783 Obdicut  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 9:29:05am

re: #781 Rightwingconspirator

Simply wrong as in factually wrong?
Not hardly, it's a matter of opinion. Ours differ.

No, it's not. If the claim is that they're 'loyal to the Democrats', it's factually wrong, and demonstrably so: they spend a lot of time criticizing Democrats.

784 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 9:29:31am

Good morning/afternoon lizards. It's a beautiful day here in central Virginia.

785 Daniel Ballard  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 9:29:49am

Okay-nice chat this morning, got my brain warmed up. Oh heck it's time to make breakfast for us. The sausage has thawed so my next debate is with the stove.

786 Obdicut  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 9:30:51am

re: #785 Rightwingconspirator

I hope you achieve tasty, fatty synthesis.

787 Kronocide  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 9:31:21am

re: #778 blueraven

Rolling Stone writes an awful lot criticizing this president and democrats in general. I wouldn't say they were partisan so much as ideological.

They are ideological and not partisan.

But does ideology mean a concurrent lack of objectivity? I think the best writers can share their ideology yet still be objective.

788 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 9:31:55am

re: #753 Obdicut

The point is that we have to, we really have to, have an economy where wealth does not accrue continuously in a small percentage. It is obvious, totally obvious, that that is not a sustainable economy.

It should be obvious. But if you dare mention the obvious facts from which follow just as obviously at least some progressive fixes, you get an incredible amount of anti-communist pushback falsely denouncing you as marxist etc.

Expect a LOT more of this as the economy goes further down the toilet. Resentment will grow, reasonable attitudes will become weaker.

789 Obdicut  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 9:32:41am

re: #787 BigPapa

And the worst writers are the ones who think of themselves as non-partisan, rather than acknowledging where they're coming from and attempting to be fair with that knowledge out in the open.

The best writers are guys like the late great Murray Kempton.

790 Digital Display  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 9:33:39am

re: #785 Rightwingconspirator

Okay-nice chat this morning, got my brain warmed up. Oh heck it's time to make breakfast for us. The sausage has thawed so my next debate is with the stove.

If you are making homemade breakfast I'm jumping on my private jet to visit you..
/ I redistributed the G5 that GE owned..Fuck them

791 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 9:33:58am

re: #759 rwdflynavy

Nope, but I don't think everyone should have to work "hard". If someone lives on a trust fund they spend money, hire people and generally keep that money velocity moving. They don't just sit on a pile of $100 bills counting it over and over all day.

Is that like the myth of the job creators?

792 Decatur Deb  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 9:35:07am

re: #763 000G

I will say this: When it doesn't come to kids, the US oftentimes even beats Europe at being liberal about sex. It's only the kids issue that is weird in the US. I don't know whether it's all religion's fault, though.

You had a show named 'Tutti Frutti'. It originated in Italy as 'Colpo Grosso'. I always loved that it was beaming through the walls of the Vatican. (Youtube available.)

793 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 9:35:45am

Morning all!

How is it going so far?

794 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 9:36:14am

re: #762 HoosierHoops

I knew I should have slept less in Econ 101..
In 5 days I'm getting a big bonus.. Nobody else in this world earned it but me..Nobody else worked late and on weekends..Nobody else got up at 3am with a call to fix something..I did..
My first job when I got married was 3.35/hr..I earned that money now I pay 25k/yr in Taxes.. I think I pay enough thank you

Maybe you do pay enough, maybe you don't. I believe you when you say that you feel you do. But how would you say you would know?

795 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 9:39:11am

re: #765 rwdflynavy

So you admit that you make more and more each year!!! REDISTRIBUTE and level the playing field Hoosier!!!
//

Obviously a modest acceleration in wealth accumulation would be pretty much untouched by this. We're talking about the very, very top here. I sincerely doubt Hoosier is one of them.

796 Obdicut  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 9:40:18am

re: #759 rwdflynavy

Nope, but I don't think everyone should have to work "hard". If someone lives on a trust fund they spend money, hire people and generally keep that money velocity moving. They don't just sit on a pile of $100 bills counting it over and over all day.

A lot of them do 'just' invest it and have their wealth grow, otherwise, you know, their wealth woudln't grow. I'm not talking about people with trust funds, but people who derive their income from unearned sources.

Some of them 'work' at it by studying the markets. Many of them don't, they just hire money managers, etc. So what I'm pointing out is you're conflating a moral and a practical argument. If you're going to talk about people deserving money because they worked for it, you can't switch horses in midstream to talk about the velocity of money being kept up by the ultrawealthy.

It is also demonstrably untrue. The middle class and poor spend a much larger amount of their discretionary income than the ultrawealthy do. The velocity of money is much higher among those who work for a living than those who invest for one.

Now, if we had a stock market that wasn't hyperfocused on short term profits, and if we didn't have a financial industry that specializes in arcane financial instruments that create paper wealth, if we had investors mainly investing in real, actual goods and services that improve quality of life, then their investment would be a de facto good thing. But we don't. You can make buttloads in tobacco stock, in oil company stock, in financial instruments of the type that caused the meltdown, in advertising companies, in all sorts of companies that do no actual good, produce nothing of actual value, and many of which actually harm the commons by the products they put out.

797 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 9:41:03am

re: #792 Decatur Deb

798 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 9:42:55am

re: #777 Rightwingconspirator

It's a weak link if compared to globalization.

Which forces do you think are primarily controlling how globalization takes place?

799 Obdicut  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 9:43:51am
800 Tiny Alien Kitties are Watching You  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 9:45:27am

Mmmmm...

Wanted to try something different with smoked oysters (besides a oyster and mustard on toast sandwich) so I tried putting cream cheese, a small dollop of Dijon mustard, and a couple of smoked oysters onto New York style roasted garlic bagel crisps. I can't believe how good these things are, I'm going to have to remember this as a future horderve possibility at get togethers.

You would have to let people make their own though or serve them immediately in small quantities, otherwise the bagel crisps wouldn't be very crisp anymore...

801 Digital Display  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 9:46:12am

re: #794 000G

Maybe you do pay enough, maybe you don't. I believe you when you say that you feel you do. But how would you say you would know?

Hi 000G! At least i'm a job creator..I pay a full time housekeeper to take care of the house and dog...It's expensive especially when she goes shopping with the AMEX..she always buys stuff she thinks I need..Last week she bought me a new vacuum cleaner cause she didn't like the old one...It's worse than hiring your mother..:)
When I get my bonuses.. I always give her something to help her pay her bills.

802 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 9:46:16am

re: #782 Sergey Romanov

As much as I would want to respond with "but, but, but the crimes...", it is also true in a way.

Both communism and anti-communism can be wrong. If communism is wrong (and it is), it does not automatically follow that anti-communism is right. Nor does it follow that anti-communism provides even just an accurate portrayal of communism (just as anti-semitism does not provide an accurate portrayal of Judaism, to use a crude analogy -- the point is that a counter-ideology is just that, not a magical tool that turns mere opposition to some ideology into an accurate analysis of reality).

803 Decatur Deb  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 9:47:57am

re: #797 Sergey Romanov

[Video]

Ha. We could make little sense of 'Colpo Grosso', with our poor Italian skills. We asked our neighbors, who laughed and said: "It makes no sense". Then once they got an American contestant and explained the rules to her in perfect English. It made no sense. (But the Cin-Cin girls were delightful.)

804 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 9:48:47am

Personally, I don't care how much money people have. What I don't like is people who use that money to Play G-d with other people's lives and then seem to be above the law in regards to the methods they use.

805 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 9:49:02am

re: #787 BigPapa

But does ideology mean a concurrent lack of objectivity?

Not neccessarily, no.

Btw, "objectivity" is a highly ideological term ;-)

806 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 9:49:48am

re: #803 Decatur Deb

Well, yeah, that song I posted is an "Italian" equivalent of this "English" song:

807 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 9:49:55am

re: #804 ggt

Personally, I don't care how much money people have. What I don't like is people who use that money to Play G-d with other people's lives and then seem to be above the law in regards to the methods they use.

But the latter is a result of the former.

808 Kronocide  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 9:51:16am

re: #805 000G

Not neccessarily, no.

Btw, "objectivity" is a highly ideological term ;-)

It can be subjective too! I figured that would have been jumped on much earlier.

809 Gus  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 9:52:18am

I don't believe in using a tax structure for redistributing wealth either. Just like using TARP funds to provide mind boggling bonuses for bank CEOs. Tax shelters for the millionaires and billionaires. Including corporate subsidies which are found inside the Federal government itself. The revolving door and corporate lobbying to land big government contract for the Fortune 500s and Construction 500s. Nope. Don't believe in it at all.

810 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 9:52:38am

re: #807 000G

But the latter is a result of the former.

having money?

I don't think having money is inherently evil. I don't think it necessarily corrupts individuals. The potential is there.

There seems to be a "tyrant" gene -- having money may or may not make it easier. There are plenty of middle class and low income people who treat others badly -- and have done great harm.

811 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 9:54:34am

re: #810 ggt

having money?

No, having A LOT more of it than the rest does.

812 Killgore Trout  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 9:55:31am

4th overdose reported at 'Occupy' camp as deadline nears

A woman was brought back to life Saturday morning after an overdose in the Occupy Portland camp, Mayor Sam Adams said.
....
The city and Occupy members have both agreed a growing level of violence and drug use have co-opted the group's original aims. By Friday, there had already been three near-fatal drug overdoses in which medics were able to revive the victims.

813 Decatur Deb  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 9:55:45am

re: #806 Sergey Romanov

Well, yeah, that song I posted is an "Italian" equivalent of this "English" song:

[Video]

We could get along, but our Italian star was the 10-yr old who went to Scuola Media. Somehow we were reluctant to have her explain "Colpo Grosso' to us.

814 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 9:56:01am

re: #811 000G

No, having A LOT more of it than the rest does.

No, I still don't agree.

It's the idea that that money makes one "more equal". I don't believe that comes part and parcel with money.

815 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 9:57:09am

re: #810 ggt

There seems to be a "tyrant" gene -- having money may or may not make it easier. There are plenty of middle class and low income people who treat others badly -- and have done great harm.

I don't think bad behavior would stop with more wealth equality. Financial equality does not equal moral equality. But certainly bad behavior would have a lot less impact in general.

816 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 9:58:12am

re: #814 ggt

No, I still don't agree.

It's the idea that that money makes one "more equal". I don't believe that comes part and parcel with money.

It's not just an idea. It is a reality. People who are mega-wealthy do not have to wish themselves privileges, they have them.

817 Kronocide  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 9:58:22am

I'd really love to talk deeper about progressive taxation for two reasons.

First is I used to believe a lot of the canards about taxing the wealthy, but question those now. Those canards are a page wide but one sentence deep, I recognize that now.

Secondly, I directly work for the wealthy. So I'm on the front lines of seeing the impact of at least one dimension of their wealth, which is personal spending.

But I got a call and have to go work (ironically, not for one of them). Look forward to when it comes up again and I have the time.

818 Decatur Deb  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 9:58:33am

re: #812 Killgore Trout

4th overdose reported at 'Occupy' camp as deadline nears

So the authorities learn something about the mood of the plebes, and the kids learn something about the management of anarchy. Win Win!!

819 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 9:58:33am

re: #815 000G

I don't think bad behavior would stop with more wealth equality. Financial equality does not equal moral equality. But certainly bad behavior would have a lot less impact in general.

Maybe, maybe not. I think the dissemination of bad ideas has done more harm.

820 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 9:59:31am

re: #812 Killgore Trout

4th overdose reported at 'Occupy' camp as deadline nears

Not only that, TB has reared it's ugly head in Atlanta...

Tuberculosis Breaks Out At Occupy Atlanta’s Base

The Fulton County Health Department confirmed Wednesday that residents at the homeless shelter where protesters have been occupying have contracted the drug-resistant disease. WGCL reports that a health department spokeswoman said there is a possibility that both Occupy Atlanta protesters and the homeless people in the shelter may still be at risk since tuberculosis is contracted through air contact.

821 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 9:59:47am

re: #819 ggt

Maybe, maybe not. I think the dissemination of bad ideas has done more harm.

More harm than what? Extreme wealth inequality and a system that is set up to make this inequality worse and worse is a bad idea, btw.

822 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 10:01:31am

re: #809 Gus 802

I don't believe in using a tax structure for redistributing wealth either. Just like using TARP funds to provide mind boggling bonuses for bank CEOs. Tax shelters for the millionaires and billionaires. Including corporate subsidies which are found inside the Federal government itself. The revolving door and corporate lobbying to land big government contract for the Fortune 500s and Construction 500s. Nope. Don't believe in it at all.

Change reality!

WITH YOUR MIND!

/

823 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 10:01:56am

re: #821 000G

More harm than what? Extreme wealth inequality and a system that is set up to make this problem worse and worse is a bad idea, btw.

Perhaps we are talking about two different levels of harm.

I think the "idea" of homosexual sex being evil has done a great harm thru the centuries. As have the ideas of Communism. More death and suffering than income inequality.

824 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 10:02:09am

re: #820 NJDhockeyfan

Not only that, TB has reared it's uglt head in Atlanta...

Tuberculosis Breaks Out At Occupy Atlanta’s Base

Why yes, actually, having people camp outdoors in cold weather without proper sanitation, heating, washing for clothes and bodies, etc. will cause outbreaks of disease and vermin.

Would you believe mankind already knew this?

825 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 10:02:42am

Capitalism: Code-word for socialism for the rich.

826 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 10:03:25am

re: #823 ggt

More death and suffering than income inequality.

I am not playing the Black Book of Communism versus Black Book of Capitalism game.

827 Killgore Trout  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 10:03:55am

re: #818 Decatur Deb

So the authorities learn something about the mood of the plebes, and the kids learn something about the management of anarchy. Win Win!!

I would like to think that but I'm not so sure. I was just reading some local coverage about how the police are learning and using different techniques. I don't know if the protesters are going to learn anything. They should have learned from the Tea Party that radicals and loons are bad for business. Adding violence to the mix only makes things worse.
I think the only thing that they may learn is that camping in urban parks is a very bad idea. I don't think they'll try this again.

828 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 10:04:17am

re: #825 000G

Capitalism: Code-word for socialism for the rich.

What do you suggest, lock up all the rich people?

829 Decatur Deb  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 10:04:21am

re: #825 000G

Capitalism: Code-word for socialism for the rich.

"Redistribution" seems to be an inherent characteristic of wealth--we're only talking about the direction of flow here.

830 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 10:04:34am

re: #826 000G

I am not playing the Black Book of Communism versus Black Book of Capitalism game.

It doesn't matter. I don't think we are going to have a meeting of the minds on this issue.

I am a Capitalist.

831 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 10:04:50am

re: #826 000G

I am not playing the Black Book of Communism versus Black Book of Capitalism game.

Which is kinda stupid game anyway. In a game of someone who killed 10 zillion victims v. someone who killed 20 zillion victims you don't "choose" someone who killed 10 zillion victims.

832 Decatur Deb  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 10:06:12am

re: #827 Killgore Trout

I would like to think that but I'm not so sure. I was just reading some local coverage about how the police are learning and using different techniques. I don't know if the protesters are going to learn anything. They should have learned from the Tea Party that radicals and loons are bad for business. Adding violence to the mix only makes things worse.
I think the only thing that they may learn is that camping in urban parks is a very bad idea. I don't think they'll try this again.

The leaderless kids will learn why leaders exist--and how to use a calendar.

833 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 10:06:24am

re: #828 NJDhockeyfan

What do you suggest, lock up all the rich people?

No, just make them a little bit less rich.

PS: Stop locking up so many people, it doesn't work.

834 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 10:06:58am

re: #833 000G

No, just make them a little bit less rich.

How would you do that, tell them to stop working?

835 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 10:07:09am

re: #830 ggt

I am a Capitalist.

Nonsensical ideological statement.

836 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 10:08:30am

re: #820 NJDhockeyfan

Not only that, TB has reared it's ugly head in Atlanta...

Tuberculosis Breaks Out At Occupy Atlanta’s Base

In other news:
[Link: www.cbsnews.com...]

A military jury gave a sentence of life in prison to an Afghan war veteran after he was convicted of murder, conspiracy, and other charges in the deaths of civilians.

837 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 10:09:32am

re: #829 Decatur Deb

"Redistribution" seems to be an inherent characteristic of wealth--we're only talking about the direction of flow here.

People have lost faith in democracy, is what it is. They do not trust themselves to find political solutions anymore. So they leave the political game to the few who are rigging the game. Self-fulfilling prophecy.

If all the people who are eligible to vote but do not bother banded together, they could turn over the country.

838 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 10:11:35am

re: #834 NJDhockeyfan

How would you do that, tell them to stop working?

No. Playing with tax valves a little that so far have been used for accelerated wealth growth in the top can help, though. Capital gains taxes could be raised substantially, for one thing.

839 Decatur Deb  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 10:12:58am

re: #837 000G

People have lost faith in democracy, is what it is. They do not trust themselves to find political solutions anymore. So they leave the political game to the few who are rigging the game. Self-fulfilling prophecy.

If all the people who are eligible to vote but do not bother banded together, they could turn over the country.

Not just democracy--many have been turned against governance itself, all in the name of Liberty. It's not just the Black Bloc assholes: "Government is not the solution, government is the problem".

840 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 10:16:01am

re: #839 Decatur Deb

Not just democracy--many have been turned against governance itself, all in the name of Liberty. It's not just the Black Bloc assholes: "Government is not the solution, government is the problem".

I am not sure if that is actually true. It seems to be just a talking point. The radical right, for instance, would be perfectly happy with a theocratic or military dictatorship.

This is because of a certain essential aspect in the rleationship between government and people: Government is inevitable. There will always be some who are in charge, even if just by the grace of natural, arbitrary forces and with more fragmentation. Take Somalia, for example.

Even those who want no government at all, through their own being promote some kind of government, if just unconsciously.

841 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 10:18:35am

re: #838 000G

No. Playing with tax valves a little that so far have been used for accelerated wealth growth in the top can help, though. Capital gains taxes could be raised substantially, for one thing.

You do understand that companies can move their businesses overseas if the government makes it more difficult to make a profit in this country don't you? I know if I owned a company and my business taxes were raised I would have 3 choices, raise the prices on my products, let employees go, or move to a more business friendly environment.

842 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 10:19:36am

re: #841 NJDhockeyfan

You do understand that companies can move their businesses overseas if the government makes it more difficult to make a profit in this country don't you? I know if I owned a company and my business taxes were raised I would have 3 choices, raise the prices on my products, let employees go, or move to a more business friendly environment.

Capital gains taxes, NJD. Not corporate taxes. Corporate taxes could even be lowered for all I care.

843 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 10:24:22am

re: #842 000G

Capital gains taxes, NJD. Not corporate taxes. Corporate taxes could even be lowered for all I care.

Companies will make their decisions on what affects their bottom line.

844 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 10:28:15am

re: #843 NJDhockeyfan

Companies will make their decisions on what affects their bottom line.

Yes, and?

845 Decatur Deb  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 10:34:03am

re: #843 NJDhockeyfan

Companies will make their decisions on what affects their bottom line.

Flesh and blood American persons are expected to give their lives for their country. Corporate persons are expected to turn their back on their country for .2 cents on the dollar. Destroy their personhood.

846 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 10:35:33am

Occupy Wall Street to send observers for Egypt’s elections

The Occupy Wall Street (OWS) New York City General Assembly posted on its Twitter account Friday that the movement would fund sending 20 observers to monitor Egypt’s upcoming parliament elections.

The proposal presented to the OWS General Assembly on 10 November to send monitors to Egypt states that it is “in response to a request sent by Egyptian civil society groups to send a delegation of OWS ambassadors to serve as international observers in the 28 November parliamentary elections.”

I thought OWS didn't have any leaders. How will they choose 20 protesters?

847 Obdicut  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 10:36:07am

re: #841 NJDhockeyfan

You do understand that companies can move their businesses overseas if the government makes it more difficult to make a profit in this country don't you? I know if I owned a company and my business taxes were raised I would have 3 choices, raise the prices on my products, let employees go, or move to a more business friendly environment.

Er, or just have lower profits. Or find other places to cut costs. So, more than 3 choices.

848 Decatur Deb  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 10:36:38am

re: #846 NJDhockeyfan

Occupy Wall Street to send observers for Egypt’s elections

I thought OWS didn't have any leaders. How will they choose 20 protesters?

When the drums stop, the last 20 standing have to go.

849 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 10:38:16am

re: #845 Decatur Deb

Flesh and blood American persons are expected to give their lives for their country. Corporate persons are expected to turn their back on their country for .2 cents on the dollar. Destroy their personhood.

People go in business to make a profit. If your company was taxed so much that you had to raise prices to keep your head above water and the consumers stopped buying your product because of the higher prices, what the point in staying there?

850 Obdicut  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 10:39:09am

re: #849 NJDhockeyfan

People go in business to make a profit. If your company was taxed so much that you had to raise prices to keep your head above water and the consumers stopped buying your product because of the higher prices, what the point in staying there?

But what if you were just taxed 2% more, and made very slightly less money?

851 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 10:40:02am

re: #850 Obdicut

But what if you were just taxed 2% more, and made very slightly less money?

OUTRAGE! I AM TAKING MY BALL AND ELOPE TO BELIZE WITH AYN RAND!

852 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 10:40:22am

re: #850 Obdicut

But what if you were just taxed 2% more, and made very slightly less money?

And then taxed a little more, and a little more, and a little more....when does it stop?

853 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 10:41:57am

re: #852 NJDhockeyfan

And then taxed a little more, and a little more, and a little more...when does it stop?

This can just as easily be an argument against any tax cuts.

854 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 10:42:23am

re: #846 NJDhockeyfan

I thought OWS didn't have any leaders. How will they choose 20 protesters?

You can choose without "leaders". They have been making decisions without "leaders" so far. Consensus, jazz hands, all that.

855 Decatur Deb  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 10:42:33am

re: #849 NJDhockeyfan

People go in business to make a profit. If your company was taxed so much that you had to raise prices to keep your head above water and the consumers stopped buying your product because of the higher prices, what the point in staying there?

The corporations may go where they please, and they will. They thus deserve no special protections, subsidies, or voice in our political process.

856 The Left  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 10:42:54am

re: #851 000G

heh, I loves me some galtian wingnut fantasy.

857 Obdicut  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 10:44:58am

re: #852 NJDhockeyfan

And then taxed a little more, and a little more, and a little more...when does it stop?

What are you talking about? When has the scenario you're talking about occurred?

858 Gus  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 10:45:13am

re: #856 iceweasel

heh, I loves me some galtian wingnut fantasy.

Apparently Joe the Plumber lives on.

Where does the real wealth redistribution go in this country? Straight to the top. The reality is also that a lot of the Federal spending goes to line the pockets of private corporations especially with regard to defense spending for our war mongering ways.

859 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 10:46:01am

re: #854 000G

You can choose without "leaders". They have been making decisions without "leaders" so far. Consensus, jazz hands, all that.

Wouldn't the 20 protester chosen to go to Egypt appear to be the the face of OWS then?

860 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 10:46:51am

re: #857 Obdicut

What are you talking about? When has the scenario you're talking about occurred?

SOVIET RUSSIA! MAOIST CHINA!

861 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 10:47:22am

re: #857 Obdicut

What are you talking about? When has the scenario you're talking about occurred?

Really? Do you think business haven't had their taxes raised in a while?

862 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 10:47:57am

re: #859 NJDhockeyfan

Wouldn't the 20 protester chosen to go to Egypt appear to be the the face of OWS then?

Sure. Why not. Like celebrity IEA or OECD inspectors.

863 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 10:48:54am

re: #853 Sergey Romanov

This can just as easily be an argument against any tax cuts.

Democracy: Where and when does it end?!?

864 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 10:50:11am

re: #862 000G

Sure. Why not. Like celebrity IEA or OECD inspectors.

Maybe Jay-Z will come along and sell a few t-shirts while he's there.

865 Obdicut  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 10:50:12am

re: #861 NJDhockeyfan

Really? Do you think business haven't had their taxes raised in a while?

Yes. They were lowered in 1981, I believe, and haven't gone back up again.

When do you think they were last raised?

866 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 10:54:15am

re: #739 Obdicut

I thought it was funny when Michele Bachmann said "If anyone shall not work, neither should he eat", given that a lot of the ultrawealthy don't work. So is she proposing that we tax unearned income highly? Of course not, but it betrays the illogic running through her position.

The GOP pretends that wealth in capitalism is accrued mainly through labor. It's not. It's created by labor, but it's those who control capital who accrue wealth at the fastest clip. And many of those who invest capital do no work.

It's typically con anti-disability social darwinism, too. Same mentality that says cut services to vets and give them vouchers.

867 Obdicut  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 10:57:43am

Whoops, I was wrong. Reagan raised corporate tax rates back in 1986, not 81.

What a commie.

We’re going to make it economical to raise children again. Flatter rates will mean more reward for that extra effort, and vanishing loopholes and a minimum tax will mean that everybody and every corporation pay their fair share.

-- R. Reagan.

I, personally, would like to see 0% corporate tax rate, but a steeper progressive tax and a capital gains tax tied to inflation but otherwise also progressive and steep. Companies spend a lot of effort now on tax avoidance. Bringing that down to the individual level would increase the efficiencies of the companies, give them less reason to lobby, and individuals are easier to target for income tax than large corporations.

868 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 10:59:53am

Eat The Rich!

869 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 11:00:46am

re: #868 NJDhockeyfan

Swiftian!

870 Obdicut  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 11:02:11am

re: #868 NJDhockeyfan

Do you understand that corporate tax rates have not been constantly increasing?

871 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 11:10:56am

Historical Corporate Top Tax Rate and Bracket: 1909-2010

[Link: www.taxpolicycenter.org...]

872 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 11:12:24am

re: #871 000G

Historical Corporate Top Tax Rate and Bracket: 1909-2010

[Link: www.taxpolicycenter.org...]

Good find, thanks!

873 Obdicut  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 11:13:18am

re: #872 NJDhockeyfan


So, do you understand the current corporate tax rate is at its lowest since WWII?

Or would you prefer to keep dodging this inconvenient information?

874 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 11:13:33am

Historical Effective Federal Tax Rates: 1979 to 2003

[Link: www.cbo.gov...]

875 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 11:14:03am

re: #414 WindUpBird

there was actually already a band called Shrapnel, it was Dave Wyndorf's band before Monster Magnet, and the band Shrapnel through several iterations eventually became Metal Church

I know this, because I'm that guy who thinks of nothing all day except rock music 9_6

Perhaps they could be a cover band.

876 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 11:17:02am

re: #431 researchok

One German thinker noted how easy it was for Americans to criticize restrictions on speech. He recalled how Americans have not had to deal with the darkest side of free speech.

I was in Munich, in the late 90's. I was staying in a hotel and was woken by a commotion outside.

Skinheads and other assorted thugs were marching, holding torches and screaming 'Auslander raus!'- foreigners leave! Most of the marchers were drunk and could best be described as a rather foolish looking lot.

I went downstairs to get a street level view as did most of the foreigners. While we laughed these buffoons off, the night concierge, an older man was quite distraught- 'This is not funny! This is how it starts!'

It was a sobering moment.

Nations also have personal experiences that affect their judgement about what's tolerable and what isn't.

877 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 11:23:44am

re: #874 000G

Historical Effective Federal Tax Rates: 1979 to 2003

[Link: www.cbo.gov...]

Ugh. Sorry, the CBO site is horrific. [Link: www.cbo.gov...]

878 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 11:24:12am

re: #876 SanFranciscoZionist

Nations also have personal experiences

what

879 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 11:54:29am

re: #772 Obdicut

The behavior of the Penn State students, to me, is a very good example of what partisanship is.

[Link: www.reuters.com...]

880 Flavia  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 8:43:21pm

re: #199 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

Is the word "mother" illegal, too? /

You been reading Bujold?? :-D

881 Flavia  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 8:47:13pm

re: #191 Obdicut

I just want to hug you right now.


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