Pamela Geller-Robert Spencer Allies Arrested in London for Planning Attacks

Fascist group plots violence against peaceful protest
World • Views: 27,758

Anti-Muslim demagogues Pamela Geller and Robert Spencer have expressed their unqualified support for the fascist English Defence League on many occasions, despite the EDL’s frequently violent demonstrations and the presence of many outright neo-Nazis among their ranks.

Yesterday in Britain, police arrested nearly 200 members of the EDL for planning to attack Occupy protesters at St. Paul’s Cathedral.

This is the kind of thuggish, violent bigotry Geller and Spencer are working to bring to America.

Police arrested 179 members of the English Defence League after reports of repeated threats to attack Occupy protesters camped outside St Paul’s Cathedral on Armistice Day.

Scotland Yard said they believed a breach of the peace was about to take place after they got intelligence that the EDL were planning the Armistice Day attack. The law states officers can arrest if they believe the breach of the peace to be “imminent.” …

The English Defence League had issued statements and made threats on Facebook to burn down protesters tents if they were still outside St Paul’s on Remembrance Sunday, according to Phillips.

Some members of the EDL had also attempted to enter the encampment, most recently on Thursday night.

A statement by the EDL on Thursday was read to the Occupy LSX general assembly on Friday morning to make people aware that there was a threat being made. “They called us all sorts of names in the statement and said we should leave “their” church and stop violating their religion,” said Phillips.

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276 comments
1 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 10:08:10am

Why?

I just don't understand.

2 Daniel Ballard  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 10:09:38am

About that alleged "Occupy" violence.... Now we see who is willing & able to be violent. Occupy critics should take careful note.

3 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 10:10:44am

Excellent that they were arrested before the violence.

4 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 10:12:58am

re: #3 EmmmieG

Excellent that they were arrested before the violence.

Absolutely. Protesting is a great way to get your voice heard. Violence just pisses people off and you look like idiots.

5 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 10:15:20am

British OWS, by its nature, will tend to attract a score of moonbats and lwnjs. EDL, by its nature, will tend to attract a score wingnuts and rwnjs. At the moment the score is 1:0 for British OWS in the violence "game".

6 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 10:17:09am

Have a great day all.

I'm off to accomplish something.

7 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 10:17:14am

Speaking about conservatives: I think it's great that a lot of them are disgusted by the Penn State student pro-Paterno-riots.

8 Daniel Ballard  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 10:18:22am

What might Occupy look like in a year? Take a look at Occupy Uncut

A shameless page pimping. But relevant to the topic at least. :-)

9 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 10:18:53am

re: #2 Rightwingconspirator

About that alleged "Occupy" violence... Now we see who is willing & able to be violent. Occupy critics should take careful note.

My objection to Occupy Portland isn't about the violence, although the collecting of rocks to throw at the police does not thrill me.

Human beings were not meant to live outside in a NW winter. The Native Americans had actual houses with fire pits in the middle. They've already had an outbreak of lice, and other diseases are breaking out at other Occupy sites. There have been three near-fatal overdoses.

I think they could accomplish the same thing with daily protests while they sleep indoors, shower every day, and wash their clothes to avoid these types of public health issues.

10 Daniel Ballard  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 10:19:07am

re: #5 Sergey Romanov

British OWS, by its nature, will tend to attract a score of moonbats and lwnjs. EDL, by its nature, will tend to attract a score wingnuts and rwnjs. At the moment the score is 1:0 for British OWS in the violence "game".

At least it's not a soccer game.
/// Now those are violent.

11 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 10:20:09am

re: #7 000G

Speaking about conservatives: I think it's great that a lot of them are disgusted by the Penn State student pro-Paterno-riots.

Quite frankly I don't know of anyone who likes riots except anarchists.

12 Daniel Ballard  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 10:20:49am

re: #9 EmmmieG

My objection to Occupy Portland isn't about the violence, although the collecting of rocks to throw at the police does not thrill me.

Human beings were not meant to live outside in a NW winter. The Native Americans had actual houses with fire pits in the middle. They've already had an outbreak of lice, and other diseases are breaking out at other Occupy sites. There have been three near-fatal overdoses.

I think they could accomplish the same thing with daily protests while they sleep indoors, shower every day, and wash their clothes to avoid these types of public health issues.

I totally agree. Occupy by and large needs to get off the grass and lease some offices. Relegate tent occupation actions to specific targets, make a point and move on. Next location. Start lobbying. Start a vote drive. Embrace some time tested politicking.

13 Gus  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 10:21:41am

I am very concerned.

14 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 10:21:43am

re: #11 NJDhockeyfan

I doubt most rioters have a seriously fledged out ideology you could call anarchism.

"Anarchy" is a concept a lot of people fall in love with in certain situations. Conservatives, for instances, always fall in love with anarchy when taxes are due.

15 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 10:23:12am

re: #12 Rightwingconspirator

"The political movement split apart over the question whether they should be involved in politics."

16 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 10:23:33am

re: #12 Rightwingconspirator

I totally agree. Occupy by and large needs to get off the grass and lease some offices. Relegate tent occupation actions to specific targets, make a point and move on. Next location. Start lobbying. Start a vote drive. Embrace some time tested politicking.

One of the first attempts at the basic get out the vote was so quickly tagged by the right's 'fraidy cats as ACORN!

17 jaunte  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 10:24:29am

After following the #ows twitter stream for a few days, I think the topic is popular among conservative bloggers and their followers because it gives them some relief from considering the weakness of the R presidential field.

18 Killgore Trout  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 10:24:40am

re: #2 Rightwingconspirator

About that alleged "Occupy" violence... Now we see who is willing & able to be violent. Occupy critics should take careful note.

The British Occupy has been peaceful but they've had some difficulty with defecating in the church and they also hailed Julian Assage as a hero. I'm glad the EDL dicks were caught and arrested but I'm not going to endorse either movement.

19 Daniel Ballard  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 10:25:46am

re: #16 Stanley Sea

Politics 101. Do not let the opposition define your actions. That is precisely where you fight back with real vigor. Backing off there was an epic error. IMO.

20 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 10:26:00am

re: #9 EmmmieG

My objection to Occupy Portland isn't about the violence, although the collecting of rocks to throw at the police does not thrill me.

Tonight rock throwing might be the least of the police's concerns.

Police brace for conflict as Occupy deadline nears

PORTLAND, Ore. (AP) — Occupy Portland demonstrators plan marches around the city on Saturday as authorities prepare to clear the movement's encampment from a city park this weekend.

Portland police believe some demonstrators are building shields and makeshift weapons — including nails hammered into wood — for the expected confrontations when the camps close at midnight on Saturday.

Occupy Portland organizers have repeatedly said the movement is nonviolent and have appealed to demonstrators to resist peacefully.

But police say as many as 150 anarchists may come to Portland to take part in a possible clash with officers.

Fucking anarchist assholes.

21 Killgore Trout  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 10:26:53am

re: #17 jaunte

After following the #ows twitter stream for a few days, I think the topic is popular among conservative bloggers and their followers because it gives them some relief from considering the weakness of the R presidential field.

It also pretty much erases the embarrassing antics of the Tea Parties. OWS is a huge gift to Republicans for now. It doesn't look like OWS will still be around next year for the election so Tea Party vs OWS may not be a factor.

22 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 10:27:09am

re: #18 Killgore Trout

I understand why an American dislikes Assange (not personally, but as a quasi-political figure). Why should the British apply the same standards? I don't remember him leaking the British secrets.

23 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 10:27:35am

re: #12 Rightwingconspirator

I totally agree. Occupy by and large needs to get off the grass and lease some offices. Relegate tent occupation actions to specific targets, make a point and move on. Next location. Start lobbying. Start a vote drive. Embrace some time tested politicking.

I posted a link last night about Occupy Mosier (a small town in Oregon). They announced they were going for a week, they did it, closed up, cleaned up, and left.

By announcing the ending at the beginning, they had an ending goal.

24 Daniel Ballard  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 10:30:03am

re: #18 Killgore Trout

The British Occupy has been peaceful but they've had some difficulty with defecating in the church and they also hailed Julian Assage as a hero. I'm glad the EDL dicks were caught and arrested but I'm not going to endorse either movement.

KT I would not suggest that you do endorse. All I'm looking for is a cold rational look at the actual sources of violence, with a healthy understanding of the media biases. Again if Occupy lets Anon or the anarchists have their wild way, it's a disaster for the movement.

25 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 10:30:46am

re: #23 EmmmieG

I posted a link last night about Occupy Mosier (a small town in Oregon). They announced they were going for a week, they did it, closed up, cleaned up, and left.

By announcing the ending at the beginning, they had an ending goal.

I can support that. Nobody was hurt and I bet the town listened to their message. The others demonstrators should take note.

26 jaunte  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 10:32:09am

OWS supporters would probably do better to focus their support on people in a better position to effect change, like Elizabeth Warren and Maria Cantwell:

If populism, directed at the manipulators of paper wealth and the politicians in their pockets, is a path to electoral victory next fall then the Democrats could do no better than to look at Cantwell on this coast, and Elizabeth Warren on the other. Two women, long-belittled by the suits, have been laser-focused on corporate excess since well before protesters decided to occupy Wall Street. And in the process, they’ve angered many of their own party members, whose hands are soiled by “the largest lobbying force ever assembled on the face of the earth,” as Warren characterized it.

How large? At least 2,500 lobbyists from the financial industry swarmed over Washington from 2009 to early last year, spending $1.3 billion to fight reform — more than $2 million in persuading power for every member of Congress.

A case can easily be made that the financial service sector, once a bit player in the capital, now owns the town and most of its elected inhabitants.
[Link: opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com...]

27 Killgore Trout  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 10:32:35am

re: #22 Sergey Romanov

I understand why an American dislikes Assange (not personally, but as a quasi-political figure). Why should the British apply the same standards? I don't remember him leaking the British secrets.

I don't fault the Brits for liking Assange but Wikileaks supporters were in on OWS from the begining. One of the first features at OWS in NY was a "free Bradley Manning" van. The Europeans are also much more comfortable with communism and are a bit more open about it but it's a feature in the US OWS movement too. European and American OWS protests are different but not completely distinct. They do share a lot of features and ideas.

28 Killgore Trout  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 10:33:44am

re: #24 Rightwingconspirator

KT I would not suggest that you do endorse. All I'm looking for is a cold rational look at the actual sources of violence, with a healthy understanding of the media biases. Again if Occupy lets Anon or the anarchists have their wild way, it's a disaster for the movement.

EDL are violent fascist extremists, you'll get no argument from me on that.

29 Idle Drifter  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 10:40:50am

re: #20 NJDhockeyfan

Is it some kind of game for anarchists to make every opportunity for civil disobedience, attacking police officers, and destroying property? I'll say no. These people honest believe their striking out against their adversaries just so they can say they did something. Which is usually results in pissing off everyone else. This is why police officers should have their own camera crew filming clashes and the vandalism.

30 Obdicut  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 10:44:27am

It's a little sickening to see the EDL cloaking themselves in the "we're protecting the church" rhetoric, given that I seriously doubt that the church wants their protection.

31 Lidane  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 10:49:30am

Gee. No mention of this on either Geller or Spencer's sites. Imagine that.

///

32 Decatur Deb  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 10:52:33am

re: #11 NJDhockeyfan

Quite frankly I don't know of anyone who likes riots except anarchists.

Glaziers.

33 Obdicut  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 10:54:00am

re: #31 Lidane

Oh, I fully expect them to engage with it, with ranting posts about prior restraint and restrictions on freedom and speech and double standards and all the rest.

34 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 10:56:13am

re: #4 NJDhockeyfan

Absolutely. Protesting is a great way to get your voice heard. Violence just pisses people off and you look like idiots.

Unless it's coming from cops and/or the state, in certain circles. Then it's heroized as vindication.

35 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 10:58:07am

re: #21 Killgore Trout

It also pretty much erases the embarrassing antics of the Tea Parties. OWS is a huge gift to Republicans for now. It doesn't look like OWS will still be around next year for the election so Tea Party vs OWS may not be a factor.

It was never a factor anyway, because it's a false dilemma. People keep trying to say this.

36 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 10:58:57am

re: #34 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

Unless it's coming from cops and/or the state, in certain circles. Then it's heroized as vindication.

Still got that hate for the police eh?

37 Idle Drifter  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 11:00:41am

re: #32 Decatur Deb

Glaziers.

Soccer Hooligans.

38 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 11:02:10am

re: #36 NJDhockeyfan

Still got that hate for the police eh?

Why does it make you angry that some people dislike state-sponsored violence against citizens?

39 Killgore Trout  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 11:05:22am

There was a faux outrage when I linked to the video of the Occupy DC folks protesting at the Israeli embassy. There's a reason why Iranian state run PressTV is fond of OWS.
Wall Street elites funding US-led wars (video)
Press TV has conducted an interview with Caleb Maupin from International Action Center to further discuss the US occupy movement.

The biggest occupiers in this world are the Wall Street class of bankers. They are occupying Iraq and Afghanistan; they give 18 million dollars every day to Israel to occupy Palestine. There are many people in the US, people of color who they feel their communities are being occupied, as violent police brutality goes on every day.

These are the occupiers; these are the source of violence. And it does not surprise me one bit that the ruling class who has been happy to bomb NATO, happy to threaten war against Iran, it does not surprise me that they would be threatening and they doing this kind of horrific violence against people who demonstrate against them.

They are motivated by profits. And people are standing up and saying they do not want to be sacrificed for the bankers' greed. So they are going to come down and they are going to attack because of they are the vicious banker class they are.

Caleb T. Maupin is an activist and organizer for the World Workers Party..

40 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 11:06:56am

re: #38 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

Why does it make you angry that some people dislike state-sponsored violence against citizens?

There are a few cops who have been bad apples and they are punished for it. You seem to hate all cops judging by your comments. 99.99% of the police officers do a helluva dangerous job and are hardly paid enough for what they do. Show them some respect.

41 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 11:07:07am

re: #39 Killgore Trout

There was a faux outrage when I linked to the video of the Occupy DC folks protesting at the Israeli embassy. There's a reason why Iranian state run PressTV is fond of OWS.
Wall Street elites funding US-led wars (video)
Press TV has conducted an interview with Caleb Maupin from International Action Center to further discuss the US occupy movement.

Caleb T. Maupin is an activist and organizer for the World Workers Party..

Probably an ANSWER stooge.

42 Obdicut  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 11:07:54am

re: #40 NJDhockeyfan

Surely you don't think that all corrupt cops wind up being caught, do you?

43 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 11:11:05am

re: #42 Obdicut

Surely you don't think that all corrupt cops wind up being caught, do you?

No but do you disagree that 99.99% are good decent cops who have a hard and dangerous job?

44 wrenchwench  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 11:11:16am

re: #23 EmmmieG

I posted a link last night about Occupy Mosier (a small town in Oregon). They announced they were going for a week, they did it, closed up, cleaned up, and left.

By announcing the ending at the beginning, they had an ending goal.

Next up: Occupy Boring!

45 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 11:12:05am

re: #40 NJDhockeyfan

bad apples

Cliché. Better phrase you've actually put some thought into, pls.

You seem to hate all cops judging by your comments.

There has never been any hatred for all-anything in any of my comments. There is plenty of kneejerk oversensitivity in yours, though.

Show them some respect.

e_e

I show respect to those who show respect to me. I do not have to show respect to those who do not show respect to me, I don't give a damn what the person does for a living.

46 Kragar  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 11:12:12am

re: #11 NJDhockeyfan

Quite frankly I don't know of anyone who likes riots except anarchists.

Never seen the fans after [local sporting franchise] loses the championship?

47 bratwurst  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 11:12:29am

re: #44 wrenchwench

Next up: Occupy Boring!

When it comes to this subject, "boring" has been occupied around here for weeks!

48 Killgore Trout  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 11:12:34am

re: #41 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

Probably an ANSWER stooge.

Pretty close. Here he is bragging about his influence on OWS....

To any regular at Zuccotti Park, the role of Workers World Party cannot be missed. On a daily basis, a table is set up by party members and supporters, decked out with Marxist-Leninist literature such as Fred Goldstein’s pamphlet, “Capitalism at a Dead End”; the booklet, “Wisconsin: Lighting the Fires of Class Struggle”; and printed copies of Larry Hales’s “Letter to the Occupy Wall Street Movement.” Thousands of copies of Workers World newspaper have been distributed in the park, where many willingly give donations for the latest issue.

Many demonstrators have signed up for more information on Workers World Party and the struggles it engages in. Conversations at the table often delve directly into the burning issues of the day, such as Libya and NATO’s murder of Moammar Gadhafi, the history of the Soviet Union, Cuba and other struggles for socialism, the struggles of the Palestinian people, as well as the bank bailouts and the capitalist roots of the current economic meltdown.

This mass, popular uprising against capitalism and its symptoms remains strong. The crowds each day consist of several thousand, rarely less and often more, especially during a specific march or rally.

He might have even been one of the original organizers. WWP had a very large presence in the beginning.

49 Killgore Trout  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 11:13:11am

re: #44 wrenchwench

Next up: Occupy Boring!

The most exciting town on earth!

50 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 11:13:35am

Oh, why not have a good time while you're at it?

Occupy Bandon!

Occupy Seaside!

Occupy Cannon Beach!

51 wrenchwench  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 11:14:27am

re: #47 bratwurst

When it comes to this subject, "boring" has been occupied around here for weeks!

Old joke:

There really is a small town in Oregon called Boring...

.

.

.

...and 200 more that should be!

52 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 11:14:40am

How come nobody wants to occupy La Grande?

53 wrenchwench  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 11:15:10am

re: #50 EmmmieG

Oh, why not have a good time while you're at it?

Occupy Bandon!

Occupy Seaside!

Occupy Cannon Beach!

Occupy Drain!

Occupy Curtain!

54 jaunte  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 11:15:30am

re: #51 wrenchwench

"Occupy Humptulips."

55 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 11:15:34am

re: #48 Killgore Trout

Pretty close. Here he is bragging about his influence on OWS...

He might have even been one of the original organizers. WWP had a very large presence in the beginning.

In the beginning, the very beginning of this OWSDS nonsense, I agreed with you on this, as well as about ANSWER. Still do, so no news about them surprises me. Just don't expect me to join in the commie-baiting...seen all that crap before.

56 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 11:15:51am

It's just so obvious the desire, the need, the fear that gets the RWNJ's on the smear bandwagon

RWwatchMA RightWingWatch MA

Dana Loesch Brings The "Nazis Like Occupy Wall Street" Smear To CNN bit.ly/rqxw91MT mt @DLoesch: bit.ly/vdg6Wt #occupychicago

57 wrenchwench  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 11:16:24am

re: #54 jaunte

"Occupy Humptulips."

Occupy George, Washington!

58 Idle Drifter  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 11:16:31am

re: #46 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Never seen the fans after [local sporting franchise] loses the championship?

Happened to Vancouver twice. Though Detroit after the World Series win went nuts. But after 4 Stanley Cups and parades you'd think Detroit would have shed its reputation of burning down the city after a championship.

59 Obdicut  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 11:17:16am

re: #43 NJDhockeyfan

No but do you disagree that 99.99% are good decent cops who have a hard and dangerous job?

I don't have any facts or figures. And it's not quite as simple as that. I'm sure many cops in San Francisco were good and decent, but they were still using lab data that was useless, and they should have known, collectively, that the results were too good to be true.

The average cop has a crappy job. I wrote, after the BART shooting, that I felt a manslaughter charge was erroneous, because we ask cops to point guns at people a lot, and mistakes are inevitable. I don't think that when an accident has occurred, cops should be prosecuted as though they just hauled off and decided on violence.

However, I think that corruption should be hammered down on all the harder for that, that they should be held to a much higher standard, and cops that pervert justice, plant evidence, coerce confessions, ought to be punished hard and drummed out of the force. Sadly, this is not the case; most cops that are found to have acted inappropriately are not fired.

60 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 11:17:16am

re: #57 wrenchwench

Occupy George, Washington!

There's a Martha as well.

They could Occupy Occupy Walla Walla.

61 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 11:17:20am

re: #56 Stanley Sea

It's just so obvious the desire, the need, the fear that gets the RWNJ's on the smear bandwagon

RWwatchMA RightWingWatch MA

Dana Loesch Brings The "Nazis Like Occupy Wall Street" Smear To CNN bit.ly/rqxw91MT mt @DLoesch: bit.ly/vdg6Wt #occupychicago

6 weeks ago, they were pointing and laughing because a girl in a frog hat went and got arrested.

And now! ...Nazis!!! ... e_e

Dana Loesch is a stupid psycho.

62 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 11:18:11am

re: #46 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Never seen the fans after [local sporting franchise] loses the championship?

Oh yeah, I missed that.

9 Most Memorable Sports Riots

63 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 11:18:45am

re: #60 EmmmieG

There's a Martha as well.

They could Occupy Occupy Walla Walla.

I still waiting for Occupy Intercourse.

64 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 11:19:40am

Is everyone typing then backspacing like me?

65 Killgore Trout  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 11:20:27am

re: #50 EmmmieG

Oh, why not have a good time while you're at it?

Occupy Bandon!

Occupy Seaside!

Occupy Cannon Beach!

I tried to occupy Coos Bay but the housing market is too unstable for me to sell my Portland palace. Maybe someday soon.

66 SidewaysQuark  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 11:21:33am

re: #43 NJDhockeyfan

No but do you disagree that 99.99% are good decent cops who have a hard and dangerous job?

I don't think 99.99% of anyone in any job are good and decent.

67 BishopX  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 11:22:21am

re: #64 Stanley Sea

frantically looking for a blog on police misconduct I found last time we were talking about this.

68 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 11:23:01am

re: #66 SidewaysQuark

I don't think 99.99% of anyone in any job are good and decent.

That was probably the dumbest stat I've ever read, even coming from him. Very, very telling.

69 Gus  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 11:23:21am

re: #64 Stanley Sea

Is everyone typing then backspacing like me?

Yes. Sent you a couple of messages on Twitter.

70 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 11:24:16am

re: #68 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

That was probably the dumbest stat I've ever read, even coming from him. Very, very telling.

It's obvious we are 180 degrees on our respect for the police in this country.

71 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 11:24:18am

re: #67 BishopX

frantically looking for a blog on police misconduct I found last time we were talking about this.

Bad apples!

You better respect 99.999999 withabaroverit percent of them, or else!!!

/

72 bratwurst  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 11:25:08am

re: #68 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

That was probably the dumbest stat I've ever read, even coming from him. Very, very telling.

As everyone already knows, 93% of all statistics are made up on the spot.

73 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 11:25:37am

re: #39 Killgore Trout

There was a faux outrage when I linked to the video of the Occupy DC folks protesting at the Israeli embassy. There's a reason why Iranian state run PressTV is fond of OWS.

The outrage was over you being fond of Press TV.

74 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 11:26:24am

re: #70 NJDhockeyfan

It's obvious we are 180 degrees on our respect for the police in this country.

Reread the post, #45, pls.

I do not have to respect ANYONE who does not respect me, regardless of their profession. All your footstomping in the world will never change that, NDJhockeyfan.

75 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 11:26:45am

I initially did not see the word 'allies', and thought this was going to be a REALLY entertaining thread.

No such luck.

76 Obdicut  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 11:26:45am

re: #70 NJDhockeyfan

Did the story about the police officer testifying that planting drugs was common practice in that Brooklyn police department give you pause?

77 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 11:27:19am

re: #73 000G

The outrage was over you being fond of Press TV.

Oh - I missed that!

Well, that sure is interesting.

78 BishopX  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 11:27:29am

re: #59 Obdicut

So here's a link to the 2010 National Police Misconduct Statistics Reporting Project Report.

Of particular note is there comparison between the crime rates of the general population and LEOs:

When current data is filtered to examine only incidents that can be classified as violent crimes as specified per the US FBI/DOJ Uniform Crime Reporting standards and then compared with the 2009 FBI/DOJ UCR Crime in the United States report as a per capita general population and per capita law enforcement basis the results indicate that overall violent crime rates are not too divergent between the two population groups with a difference of only 20.1 per 100k point between the two. However, there appear to be some more significant differences at a more granular level with robbery rates for police far below those reported for the general population but sexual assault rates are significantly higher for police when compared to the general population.

Or in chart form.

79 jaunte  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 11:28:01am

Police are as susceptible as any other humans to making mistakes, getting angry, taking shortcuts, and being corrupt. Otherwise there wouldn't be a need for internal affairs divisions.

80 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 11:29:26am

re: #2 Rightwingconspirator

About that alleged "Occupy" violence... Now we see who is willing & able to be violent. Occupy critics should take careful note.

Er...I never had any doubts about the violence inherent in the EDL.

The fact that they chose Occupy as a target is not going to make me excuse poor behavior on Occupy's part, especially Occupy groups halfway around the world.

Windows get broken on Broadway, I'm gonna disapprove, and criticize, regardless of what the hell the EDL has started doing.

81 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 11:31:25am

re: #79 jaunte

Police are as susceptible as any other humans to making mistakes, getting angry, taking shortcuts, and being corrupt. Otherwise there wouldn't be a need for internal affairs divisions.

Hey!

That's not true1 Internal affairs departments were just put there by people who got busted, to shake down 99.99% of cops for reparations!!!1@

82 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 11:32:16am

re: #5 Sergey Romanov

British OWS, by its nature, will tend to attract a score of moonbats and lwnjs. EDL, by its nature, will tend to attract a score wingnuts and rwnjs. At the moment the score is 1:0 for British OWS in the violence "game".

I didn't think of them as competing forces before now, although the EDL apparently does.

Wait, doesn't the EDL think the banks are part of the creeping shariah plot to keep the white European down?

83 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 11:33:14am

re: #13 Gus 802

I've noticed.

84 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 11:33:28am

re: #79 jaunte

Police are as susceptible as any other humans to making mistakes, getting angry, taking shortcuts, and being corrupt. Otherwise there wouldn't be a need for internal affairs divisions.

re: #79 jaunte

Quite amazing this old old mindset. 99.99% of these people are heroes! And anyone who doesn't agree is a flag burning (I'm preemptively adding this one, betcha it will show up sooner or later) commie hippy.

So 2011.

85 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 11:34:10am

re: #16 Stanley Sea

One of the first attempts at the basic get out the vote was so quickly tagged by the right's 'fraidy cats as ACORN!

And they'll keep that up. It's still one of the most effective things that can actually be done.

86 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 11:34:30am

re: #79 jaunte

Police are as susceptible as any other humans to making mistakes, getting angry, taking shortcuts, and being corrupt. Otherwise there wouldn't be a need for internal affairs divisions.

No the're not, they are out to get OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin!

87 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 11:36:03am

re: #82 SanFranciscoZionist

I didn't think of them as competing forces before now, although the EDL apparently does.

Well, if you listen to some people, OWS is somewhere between KKK and EDL. So some sense of perspective is necessary.

88 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 11:37:19am

re: #75 SanFranciscoZionist

I initially did not see the word 'allies', and thought this was going to be a REALLY entertaining thread.

No such luck.

Too bad to be true.

89 Digital Display  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 11:37:53am

re: #80 SanFranciscoZionist

Hi SFZ! Hope today finds you well...Always love your posts..Jeez..Next weekend I'm be back in your neighborhood..Back home in Yountville..I'm starting to get jacked up.. :)
Pops doesn't even have Internet out in the Country...I'll have to find a Starbucks on Redwood road or something to give updates.. Pathetic.. :)

90 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 11:38:04am

re: #86 NJDhockeyfan

No the're not, they are out to get OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin!

What's interesting is, I've never said anything of the sort about "them", not even close.

Where did you deduce that bit of brilliance?

91 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 11:40:29am

re: #90 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

What's interesting is, I've never said anything of the sort about "them", not even close.

Where did you deduce that bit of brilliance?

You always find a shitty thing to say about cops on here and I have yet to see you post a positive statement about them, ever.

92 Idle Drifter  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 11:42:37am
Youtube Video

Occupy Sealab.

93 wrenchwench  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 11:44:42am

re: #91 NJDhockeyfan

You always find a shitty thing to say about cops on here and I have yet to see you post a positive statement about them, ever.

That observation does not support your deduction.

94 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 11:45:22am

re: #91 NJDhockeyfan

You always find a shitty thing to say about cops on here and I have yet to see you post a positive statement about them, ever.

Then you're not reading carefully.

Why is it oh-so important for people like you and Dark to see me utter positive platitudes about conservatism and the police?

Do you guys really give a damn what I think? Doubtful...

95 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 11:45:43am

re: #87 Sergey Romanov

Well, if you listen to some people, OWS is somewhere between KKK and EDL. So some sense of perspective is necessary.

If you listen to other people, criticizing anything OWS does is letting the banks win, and dooming the world to utter darkness.

I think OWS ranges from 'dumb and self-indulgent' to 'somewhat interesting and with some potential', depending on the group and the day.

EDL remains 'evil as fuck' all the time.

They are not, in my world, related phenomena, although EDL has apparently identified the protesters as somethin' else they don't like, and want to beat up.

96 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 11:47:41am

re: #93 wrenchwench

That observation does not support your deduction.

I just find it fascinating, this bizarre insistence that I must "respect" an entire group of people, some of whom may or may not "respect" me back, simply because they do a certain job. Weird.

97 Obdicut  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 11:47:59am

re: #95 SanFranciscoZionist

If you listen to other people, criticizing anything OWS does is letting the banks win, and dooming the world to utter darkness.

See, I haven't experienced this. I've criticized, and remain critical, of Occupy. I don't think it is, or will, achieve anything. I think that it may suppress voter turnout, due to the many ideological non-voters. I think the amount of economic ignorance typified by the 'end the fed' stuff I saw there is depressing.

But I haven't had anyone lambaste me for those criticisms.

I think it matters a lot what tone the criticism comes in, and what the actual criticism is.

98 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 11:48:38am

re: #94 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

Why won't you show some respect and utter a couple of positive platitudes already?

;-)

99 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 11:48:49am

re: #74 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

There were about 883,600 police officers and detectives employed in the US in 2008. I'm sure that number is higher today. They don't make a lot of money but they put their lives on the line every day to protect you and me and everybody else. Have some fucking respect.

100 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 11:48:51am

Flag burning!

101 The Left  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 11:49:54am

re: #96 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

I just find it fascinating, this bizarre insistence that I must "respect" an entire group of people, some of whom may or may not "respect" me back, simply because they do a certain job. Weird.

Authoritarian mindset. It's not enough for you to obey, you must love Big Brother.

102 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 11:50:03am

re: #91 NJDhockeyfan

You also didn't answer the question. Where have I ever claimed "they" are out to get me, personally, or anything like it? Find the post(s), pls.

103 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 11:50:04am

re: #96 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

I just find it fascinating, this bizarre insistence that I must "respect" an entire group of people, some of whom may or may not "respect" me back, simply because they do a certain job. Weird.

They are out there to protect your fucking ass, not respect you.

Respect is earned BTW.

104 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 11:51:16am

re: #102 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

You also didn't answer the question. Where have I ever claimed "they" are out to get me, personally, or anything like it? Find the post(s), pls.

You seem to be paranoid about our law enforcement heroes. I just assumed you believed they were out to get you.

105 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 11:51:44am

re: #95 SanFranciscoZionist

If you listen to other people, criticizing anything OWS does is letting the banks win, and dooming the world to utter darkness.

While I have seen many knee-jerk defensive reactions, I haven't really seen such extremes. The critics have been far more shrill in my estimation.

106 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 11:51:57am

re: #99 NJDhockeyfan

Have some fucking respect.

This shit, again e_e.

Didn't I just tell you, twice now, I respect those who respect me?

Curse at me and fret all you like, I do not have to respect any person who does not respect me, and I never will. It really is that simple, hockeyfan.

107 wrenchwench  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 11:52:37am

re: #99 NJDhockeyfan

There were about 883,600 police officers and detectives employed in the US in 2008. I'm sure that number is higher today. They don't make a lot of money but they put their lives on the line every day to protect you and me and everybody else. Have some fucking respect.

I know a bunch of police officers. None of them demand that everyone show them respect, especially on the internet.

You know a bunch of police officers, Do they demand that people on the internet show them respect?

re: #103 NJDhockeyfan

Respect is earned BTW.

First sensible thing you're said on the topic.

108 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 11:52:49am

re: #106 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

This shit, again e_e.

Didn't I just tell you, twice now, I respect those who respect me?

Curse at me and fret all you like, I do not have to respect any person who does not respect me, and I never will. It really is that simple, hockeyfan.

Give me a reason they would respect you. They don't even know you.

109 Decatur Deb  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 11:53:31am

re: #63 NJDhockeyfan

I still waiting for Occupy Intercourse.

BTDT.

110 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 11:53:37am

re: #97 Obdicut

See, I haven't experienced this. I've criticized, and remain critical, of Occupy. I don't think it is, or will, achieve anything. I think that it may suppress voter turnout, due to the many ideological non-voters. I think the amount of economic ignorance typified by the 'end the fed' stuff I saw there is depressing.

But I haven't had anyone lambaste me for those criticisms.

I think it matters a lot what tone the criticism comes in, and what the actual criticism is.

I've had mixed experiences.

111 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 11:53:41am

re: #107 wrenchwench

Has anybody posted Cartman yet?

112 Gus  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 11:53:52am

Remarkable.

113 wrenchwench  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 11:54:04am

re: #108 NJDhockeyfan

Give me a reason they would respect you. They don't even know you.

Now you're going nutty.

If they don't know her, why should she show them respect?

114 Talking Point Detective  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 11:54:19am

re: #21 Killgore Trout

OWS is a huge gift to Republicans for now.

Do you have any evidence to support that claim?

115 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 11:54:21am

re: #105 Sergey Romanov

While I have seen many knee-jerk defensive reactions, I haven't really seen such extremes. The critics have been far more shrill in my estimation.

I think the defense has been giving as good as they get.

116 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 11:54:26am

re: #108 NJDhockeyfan

Give me a reason they would respect you. They don't even know you.

This is getting weird.

117 wrenchwench  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 11:54:46am

re: #111 Sergey Romanov

Has anybody posted Cartman yet?

Haven't seen it... but I think I know what you're referring to...

118 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 11:55:18am

re: #115 SanFranciscoZionist

I think the defense has been giving as good as they get.

Anyone in particular? WindUpBird/windsagio/LaZardo?

119 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 11:55:24am

re: #104 NJDhockeyfan

You seem to be paranoid about our law enforcement heroes. I just assumed you believed they were out to get you.

Criticizing the "Bad apples", your own words, isn't paranoid. Angry, unwarranted demands that I "respect" people, apparently virtually all of whom you claim our "heroes", based solely on what they've chosen to do for a living, strikes me as just irrational.

Oh, and don't ever assume anything about my beliefs, again. It's lazy thinking.

120 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 11:56:03am

re: #115 SanFranciscoZionist

I think the defense has been giving as good as they get.

I ... can't parse this sentence. Does it mean "it is equal to the opposite side"?

121 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 11:56:10am

re: #107 wrenchwench

I know a bunch of police officers. None of them demand that everyone show them respect, especially on the internet.

You know a bunch of police officers, Do they demand that people on the internet show them respect?

No, I just do it because it's the right thing to do. If I get pulled over it's 'Yes sir, no Sir'...etc. I know how dangerous their job is.

First sensible thing you're said on the topic.

Thank you.

122 makeitstop  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 11:56:20am

re: #116 000G

This is getting weird.

Truly.

'Show respect to those you don't know, even though they don't know you either and don't have to respect you!'

123 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 11:56:55am

re: #118 000G

Anyone in particular? WindUpBird/windsagio/LaZardo?

WHy do you ask?

124 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 11:57:21am

re: #108 NJDhockeyfan

Give me a reason they would respect you. They don't even know you.

Are you suggesting the police need a reason to "respect" the public, which pays their salary?

I sure hope not.

125 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 11:57:38am

re: #120 Sergey Romanov

I ... can't parse this sentence. Does it mean "it is equal to the opposite side"?

It means they're doing as well in the fight, idiomatically.

126 wrenchwench  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 11:58:07am

re: #121 NJDhockeyfan

No, I just do it because it's the right thing to do. If I get pulled over it's 'Yes sir, no Sir'...etc. I know haw dangerous their job is.

Thank you.

Getting pulled over is certainly different from commenting on the internet.

Are you off the cigs again or something? Need a break?

127 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 11:58:53am

re: #113 wrenchwench

Now you're going nutty.

If they don't know her, why should she show them respect?

because he's not demanding "respect"...

Cripes, "the police" don't even have this idiotic attitude towards the public.

128 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 11:59:36am

re: #124 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

Are you suggesting the police need a reason to "respect" the public, which pays their salary?

I sure hope not.

They aren't hired to respect anyone, they are hired to protect us. I respect them for all the work they do. Remember what I said...respect is earned.

129 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 11:59:53am

re: #123 SanFranciscoZionist

WHy do you ask?

Because a lot of what you talk about in regard to opinions being waged one way or another is being rather general and unspecific (maybe to be polite or maybe to avoid further confrontation?). I would like to better assess your observations, getting into the concrete. As it is, it looks a little MBFish.

130 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 12:00:28pm

re: #121 NJDhockeyfan

No, I just do it because it's the right thing to do. If I get pulled over it's 'Yes sir, no Sir'...etc.

Goalpost change.

131 Gus  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 12:01:33pm

"I'm not really taking any sides here even though I'm taking sides."

//

132 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 12:01:55pm

re: #130 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

Goalpost change.

Not at all. It's an example. It's gotten me out of a few tickets. Be an ass to a cop and see if he let's you slide.

133 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 12:02:17pm

re: #126 wrenchwench

Getting pulled over is certainly different from commenting on the internet.

Are you off the cigs again or something? Need a break?

Well I do need to go to a client's house.

Have a great day lizards...respect you local law enforcement members!

134 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 12:02:42pm

re: #104 NJDhockeyfan

You seem to be paranoid about our law enforcement heroes. I just assumed you believed they were out to get you.

Heroes? You say the same about teachers don't you?

135 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 12:02:54pm

re: #133 NJDhockeyfan

Have a great day lizards...respect you local law enforcement members!

OR ELSE!

136 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 12:03:15pm

re: #125 SanFranciscoZionist

It means they're doing as well in the fight, idiomatically.

Meaning, as shrill as the OWS critics?

OK, one example - the ECI clip, posted here by several critics. As shrill as it gets. (I won't bring up the Melanie Phillips clip since even KT balked at that.) Is there anything that comes close from the other side?

137 Talking Point Detective  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 12:03:18pm

re: #129 000G

Because a lot of what you talk about in regard to opinions being waged one way or another is being rather general and unspecific (maybe to be polite or maybe to avoid further confrontation?). I would like to better assess your observations, getting into the concrete. As it is, it looks a little MBFish.

I would also like to know the specifics.

Not saying it hasn't happened - I haven't been around enough to know. But for the time I have been around, I haven't seen what you described.

138 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 12:03:32pm

re: #128 NJDhockeyfan

They aren't hired to respect anyone, they are hired to protect us. I respect them for all the work they do. Remember what I said...respect is earned.

When I want your lectures on "respect", I'll ask you for some.

I'll also remind you, if I'm being treated disrespectfully by any individual, that will never earn respect, sorry.

139 Talking Point Detective  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 12:04:22pm

re: #137 Talking Point Detective

Sorry - "you" being SFZ.

140 Digital Display  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 12:04:57pm

You know..Several years ago one of best friend passed away suddenly.. He was a policeman in Speedway..Charles was kind enough to let me post with links to the funeral and his life..Remember those police drive arounds with him..right here? Man that was some fun posts about a day in the life of a cop..
So here is my point..I've known cops my whole life..
Generally no one in America would ever disrespect a good cop..
And no one need be compelled to respect a bad cop either...I've known some piece of Shit Cops..
My friend Alan was the most descent man I ever met..He had an influence on me..It was my great privilege to know him..
So I guess it's a good cop/bad cop thing.. Wait..I've heard that before

141 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 12:04:57pm

re: #129 000G

Because a lot of what you talk about in regard to opinions being waged one way or another is being rather general and unspecific (maybe to be polite or maybe to avoid further confrontation?). I would like to better assess your observations, getting into the concrete. As it is, it looks a little MBFish.

No. I'm responding to individual events as they occur, or walking away if I get too angry.

I have no expectation that naming names and detailing personal feelings about conversations I've been here in will change anyone's perception of the situation. I'm also pretty sure that any such conversation will rapidly turn into an arm-wrestling contest.

142 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 12:04:58pm

re: #133 NJDhockeyfan

Well I do need to go to a client's house.

Have a great day lizards...respect you local law enforcement members!

e_e

Youtube Video

JBS tells me the exact same thing. Nobody has to listen to them, or you, on this topic.

143 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 12:05:20pm

re: #139 Talking Point Detective

Note that you can edit the comments now. (Just in case.)

144 Olsonist  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 12:05:30pm

In Oakland CA, where I live, police officers start at $64,656 the first day of academy training. Plus benefits. No college degree required, They have a separate retirement system. Most don't live in Oakland.

Average OPD salary is $162,000. They can retire at age 50.

145 laZardo  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 12:06:27pm

re: #144 Olsonist

That's a lot of pork for beating up minorities.

146 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 12:07:00pm

re: #134 Stanley Sea

Heroes? You say the same about teachers don't you?

Unlikely he'll ever make these kneejerk, partly-unhinged demands for "respect", regarding teachers or any other public servants.

I love this clip.

Youtube Video
147 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 12:07:12pm

re: #144 Olsonist

Sorry for a bit of jacking, but can you explain the ding at #5?

148 BishopX  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 12:07:28pm

re: #144 Olsonist

Would you want a 65 year old beat cop on your block?

149 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 12:07:58pm

re: #136 Sergey Romanov

Meaning, as shrill as the OWS critics?

OK, one example - the ECI clip, posted here by several critics. As shrill as it gets. (I won't bring up the Melanie Phillips clip since even KT balked at that.) Is there anything that comes close from the other side?

Actually, I didn't say 'shrill'.

I said they were holding their own in the discussion.

Do you think that they are not?

150 Talking Point Detective  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 12:08:16pm

re: #143 Sergey Romanov

Note that you can edit the comments now. (Just in case.)

Whoa!

That is a dimension-shift in blog flame warring. Instead of making illogical statements, I can now just go back, change what I wrote, and deny, deny, deny?

151 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 12:08:53pm

re: #141 SanFranciscoZionist

Well, then get to specific events rather than persons or names. See Sergey's #136. It's really hard to have a reality-based conversation without being specific at least at some point.

152 Talking Point Detective  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 12:09:07pm

re: #143 Sergey Romanov

Note that you can edit the comments now. (Just in case.)

What I really need is a button so I can edit when people quote me. I'd never lose an argument again.

153 laZardo  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 12:09:52pm

re: #147 Sergey Romanov

Sorry for a bit of jacking, but can you explain the ding at #5?

Having also read it, I also dinged it for MBF.

154 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 12:11:15pm

re: #132 NJDhockeyfan

Not at all. It's an example. It's gotten me out of a few tickets.

Get pulled over often, I see. e_e

Be an ass to a cop and see if he let's you slide.

LOL where did I ever advocate being an ass to a cop?
Oh wait, you left. You're not very good at this.

155 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 12:11:50pm

re: #149 SanFranciscoZionist

OK, that is perhaps why I didn't parse it. I wrote: "While I have seen many knee-jerk defensive reactions, I haven't really seen such extremes. The critics have been far more shrill in my estimation."

So when you replied: "I think the defense has been giving as good as they get.", I thought it must've continued the "comparison" train of thought, and didn't understand it, and then interpreted it as equation of 2 sides. Prolly a language problem on my part.

156 wrenchwench  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 12:12:27pm

I don't know whether y'all know how easy it is to look at someone's previous comments. You can look at all of them, 6 months at a time, for comments on Pages, too. If you want to know what any particular commenter has said on a particular subject, do some searching. Click their icon, click on "Recent Comments", add something to their user name in the search terms box if you wish, then use the date window, and start reading.

I say this because I sort of know how SFZ feels about OWS, because I've read her comments on the subject. And I respect her desire not to rehash stuff.

157 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 12:14:10pm

re: #153 laZardo

Having also read it, I also dinged it for MBF.

Actually it's taking MBF, gutting it, turning inside out and nailing its skin to the wall.

But whatever makes you tick.

158 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 12:14:15pm

re: #156 wrenchwench

I respect her desire not to rehash stuff.

I do, too, but when she adresses past stuff herself, on her own, I think it's fair to ask her about specifics, i.e. what she really means.

159 BongCrodny  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 12:15:00pm

re: #144 Olsonist

In Oakland CA, where I live, police officers start at $64,656 the first day of academy training. Plus benefits. No college degree required, They have a separate retirement system.

Average OPD salary is $162,000. They can retire at age 50.

Oakland's got the fifth highest crime rate in the country and what looks to be the third highest rate of violent crime.

I'd want a big fat pile of money to be a cop in Oakland, too.

160 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 12:15:05pm

re: #150 Talking Point Detective

Whoa!

That is a dimension-shift in blog flame warring. Instead of making illogical statements, I can now just go back, change what I wrote, and deny, deny, deny?

Yes, as long as you don't run out of 10 min. limit.

161 Olsonist  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 12:16:45pm

re: #147 Sergey Romanov

Sorry for a bit of jacking, but can you explain the ding at #5?

British OWS, by its nature, will tend to attract a score of moonbats and lwnjs. EDL, by its nature, will tend to attract a score wingnuts and rwnjs. At the moment the score is 1:0 for British OWS in the violence "game".

Sure. I thought you were equating the two, OWS and EDL. This is kind of balance fairy thing. Instead, given the broad support of Occupy, across the US and internationally, I don't see it as a bunch of lwnjs and I certainly do not see it as violent in any way. There is no violence game.

162 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 12:17:19pm

re: #135 000G

Have a great day lizards...respect you local law enforcement members!

OR ELSE!

THAT WAS NOT VERY RESPECTFUL!!

YOU BETTER GODDAM FUCKING SAY YOU RESPECT 99.999% OF MY PET GROUP, OR ELSE I WILL COMPLAIN THAT YOU ARE PARANOID!!

163 laZardo  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 12:17:25pm

re: #159 BongCrodny

Oakland's got the fifth highest crime rate in the country and what looks to be the third highest rate of violent crime.

I'd want a big fat pile of money to be a cop in Oakland, too.

So the solution for high crime rates caused by poverty consists of more guns, tasers and batons? The OPD are practically another gang now.

164 Talking Point Detective  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 12:18:19pm

re: #156 wrenchwench

I don't know whether y'all know how easy it is to look at someone's previous comments. You can look at all of them, 6 months at a time, for comments on Pages, too. If you want to know what any particular commenter has said on a particular subject, do some searching. Click their icon, click on "Recent Comments", add something to their user name in the search terms box if you wish, then use the date window, and start reading.

I say this because I sort of know how SFZ feels about OWS, because I've read her comments on the subject. And I respect her desire not to rehash stuff.

Fair enough - but I am genuinely curious to know that the following is accurate:

If you listen to other people, criticizing anything OWS does is letting the banks win, and dooming the world to utter darkness.

Here's why. From what I've seen, that hasn't been the rhetoric (even allowing for hyperbole) in response to criticism of OWS. The response has been - as Obdi indicated above, about the accuracy or validity of the criticism.

I think I have a fairly good feel on how SFZ feels about OWS, but it makes a difference to me to know whether or not the response has been as SFZ had described. I have my doubts - and so I'd like to see evidence if the truth is otherwise.

165 laZardo  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 12:19:27pm

re: #161 Olsonist

Unless you count violence against the "lwnjs" at the Occupy protests, in which case they've got a tragic 2-0 lead in terms of death.

Emphasis on tragic, of course.

166 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 12:20:35pm

re: #161 Olsonist

1. I didn't equate the two. No more than, say, #2.

2. I did make a comparison for rhetorical purposes, without equating the two.

3. I never said British OWS is a bunch of lwnjs.

4. I didn't accuse British OWS of violence. Quite the opposite.

Reading comprehension is a must.

167 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 12:21:29pm

re: #116 000G

This is getting weird.

Weird, albeit totally predictable.

168 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 12:21:51pm

re: #151 000G

Well, then get to specific events rather than persons or names. See Sergey's #136. It's really hard to have a reality-based conversation without being specific at least at some point.

We're not having a reality based conversation, we're talking about OWS.

I've just written about three long responses to this, and deleted them all.

Simply, I have, several times, had people respond to my criticism of OWS with long rants about how terrible the banking industry is (something I shall certainly not argue with), and concluding with how they just can't take criticism of Occupy groups seriously when--fiscal malfeasance! I've also, fairly recently, been called out by name to, essentially, stop giving aid and comfort to Killgore by insufficient freaking out over his spamming on the subject.

If saying that people defending OWS have been a. sometimes emotional and silly about it and b. are, in fact, a substantial force on the blog, and that c. they are not being bullied, they are giving as good as they get is to summon the Magical Balance Fairy, great. Whatever. She's a cutie.

What I cannot fathom is what people who disagree with this believe, except that they wish Killgore would stop posting weird shit and talking about Marxists.

169 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 12:22:27pm

re: #155 Sergey Romanov

OK, that is perhaps why I didn't parse it. I wrote: "While I have seen many knee-jerk defensive reactions, I haven't really seen such extremes. The critics have been far more shrill in my estimation."

So when you replied: "I think the defense has been giving as good as they get.", I thought it must've continued the "comparison" train of thought, and didn't understand it, and then interpreted it as equation of 2 sides. Prolly a language problem on my part.

Or mine.

170 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 12:22:53pm

re: #169 SanFranciscoZionist

Or mine.

Unlikely. I stumbled somewhere.

171 Gus  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 12:23:38pm

Oh brother.

172 Eclectic Infidel  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 12:23:46pm

Nice bit with the "narrator" merely pointing out that citizens were there to honor their war dead, while painting the cops as violent thugs. The tats on the solemn citizens give their nature away though. Will Geller and Spencer cite the actions of the police as yet another example of 'creeping sharia'?

173 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 12:23:58pm

re: #161 Olsonist

re: #153 laZardo

Way to prove SFZ correct.

//

174 Talking Point Detective  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 12:24:06pm

re: #166 Sergey Romanov

In all fairness - although not intended, it does read a bit that way:

At the moment the score is 1:0 for British OWS in the violence "game".

At first, I interpreted that to mean that OWS is "in the violence game." I don't think that it is. And there's no doubt that as a band of hooligans, the EDL is in the violence game.

Don't shoot - I'm only giving my interpretation and acknowledging that it was wrong!

175 laZardo  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 12:24:18pm

re: #162 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

Youtube Video

:B

176 Killgore Trout  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 12:25:01pm

re: #168 SanFranciscoZionist

they wish Killgore would stop posting weird shit and talking about Marxists.

Heh.

177 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 12:26:42pm

Gators down again.

Oh what a year.

:(

178 Gus  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 12:27:27pm
Youtube Video
179 bratwurst  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 12:27:42pm

re: #168 SanFranciscoZionist

Killgore...spamming on the subject

Bingo.

180 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 12:27:50pm

re: #175 laZardo

[Video]:B

NDJ apparently assumes I'm the guy at 2:07. A lot of them do. 9_9

181 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 12:27:52pm

Anyway. Fuck the EDL. Right in the ear.

I have to go get to a work meeting. The transit thingy informs me that there may be schedule changes due to 'incident' at Frank Ogawa plaza. If Jean Quan has chosen today for the next step in her 'dove-release one day, tell OPD to go in batons swinging the next' routine, I will be most upset.

182 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 12:28:13pm

re: #174 Talking Point Detective

I don't think the overall sense - that the far right is much more dangerous than a bunch of hippies and maybe even Marxists - is that hard to get. And yes, our own hardcore critics pretty much endorse the idea that OWS is in the violence game. The comment is largely mocking them.

It really takes an lwnj to take it and turn it into an anti-OWS comment.

183 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 12:28:18pm

Did the candlelight vigil at Penn State last night get much coverage outside of the local area?

[Link: www.reuters.com...]

184 laZardo  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 12:28:19pm

re: #177 Stanley Sea

Look on the bright side, at least the Niners are doing well.

until they get their asses kicked by Green Bay in the playoffs ;_;

185 Olsonist  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 12:28:26pm

re: #166 Sergey Romanov

3. I never said British OWS is a bunch of lwnjs.

British OWS, by its nature, will tend to attract a score of moonbats and lwnjs.

Your aim in writing should be clarity. My aim in reading should be comprehension. Unfortunately, you write before I read so the first burden is on you.

186 Talking Point Detective  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 12:28:48pm

re: #174 Talking Point Detective

I should say it could be read that way. Not necessarily blaming you if people misread your intent. But I am a believer in "writer responsible prose." Some cultures feel it is the more the responsibility of the reader to understand what was written than the responsibility of the writer to be absolutely clear. I tend to believe that we need to bend over backwards to assume responsibility of we leave any room for misinterpretation.

187 laZardo  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 12:29:04pm

re: #183 oaktree

Outside the local area or outside the sports sections?

188 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 12:29:53pm

re: #187 laZardo

Outside the local area or outside the sports sections?

Both. Though the vigil wasn't about the sports team at all.

189 albusteve  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 12:30:45pm

re: #156 wrenchwench

I don't know whether y'all know how easy it is to look at someone's previous comments. You can look at all of them, 6 months at a time, for comments on Pages, too. If you want to know what any particular commenter has said on a particular subject, do some searching. Click their icon, click on "Recent Comments", add something to their user name in the search terms box if you wish, then use the date window, and start reading.

I say this because I sort of know how SFZ feels about OWS, because I've read her comments on the subject. And I respect her desire not to rehash stuff.

so do I....how many ways can you state an opinion?
some of this gets dragged along endlessly, way beyond interest for me

190 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 12:31:01pm

re: #185 Olsonist

Your aim in writing should be clarity. My aim in reading should be comprehension. Unfortunately, you write before I read so the first burden is on you.

I may not always write clearly, but not in the particular example you bring up. Saying that OWS attracts scores of lwnjs - which it undeniably does - is not the same as saying that OWS is a bunch of lwnjs. So, comprehension problem on your end.

191 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 12:31:36pm

re: #181 SanFranciscoZionist

Anyway. Fuck the EDL. Right in the ear.

I have to go get to a work meeting. The transit thingy informs me that there may be schedule changes due to 'incident' at Frank Ogawa plaza. If Jean Quan has chosen today for the next step in her 'dove-release one day, tell OPD to go in batons swinging the next' routine, I will be most upset.

That's just great.

192 Talking Point Detective  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 12:33:10pm

re: #182 Sergey Romanov

I don't think the overall sense - that the far right is much more dangerous than a bunch of hippies and maybe even Marxists - is that hard to get.

I think that's interesting - not sure I agree, but the question at hand (for me at least given your #5) is whether they are in the violence game to different degrees. I don't think so.

The EDL is a bunch of hooligans. They are, specifically, into violence pretty much as an end unto itself (not to say that fascism isn't a goal of theirs also).

And yes, our own hardcore critics pretty much endorse the idea that OWS is in the violence game. The comment is largely mocking them.

I get that now. I'm just saying that I didn't read it that way at first.

193 Eclectic Infidel  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 12:33:43pm

re: #163 laZardo

So the solution for high crime rates caused by poverty consists of more guns, tasers and batons? The OPD are practically another gang now.

When all is said and done, OPD is overwhelmed. They are desperately needed on our streets and yes, there needs to be more public services, especially for those who are teenagers and of young working age, but there isn't. In the end, I'll take more officers on the streets over public services if that is what Oakland can get. Calling OPD a gang however isn't just insulting, it's rather naive.

194 Talking Point Detective  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 12:38:08pm

re: #193 eclectic infidel

When all is said and done, OPD is overwhelmed. They are desperately needed on our streets and yes, there needs to be more public services, especially for those who are teenagers and of young working age, but there isn't. In the end, I'll take more officers on the streets over public services if that is what Oakland can get. Calling OPD a gang however isn't just insulting, it's rather naive.

It's complicated. I don't know if the OPD is like the police in Philly, but in Philly there really is a lot of gang-like behavior on the part of the police. That's not to diminish the dangerous and complicated nature of the job, or the importance of what they're supposed to be doing, but there really is some gang-like shit that goes down quite regularly in this city. I'm not sure that OPD is that different.

195 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 12:38:22pm

OT, but annoying me:

I'm getting tired of the "incidence in the showers" being referred to as "having sex with a young boy."

Correct words, please. He was raping the boy. Even if the kid wasn't screaming out, he was being raped.

196 albusteve  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 12:39:46pm

re: #195 EmmmieG

OT, but annoying me:

I'm getting tired of the "incidence in the showers" being referred to as "having sex with a young boy."

Correct words, please. He was raping the boy. Even if the kid wasn't screaming out, he was being raped.

must be PC...boy rape is overload for most people

197 Talking Point Detective  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 12:41:54pm

re: #196 albusteve

must be PC...boy rape is overload for most people

I agree. Having sex with a boy is, by definition, rape. I don't think choice of terminology creates any differences in outcomes.

198 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 12:42:08pm

In the US prisons are there any alleged informal methods for dealing with pedos among the prisoners (aside from the rape cliche)? In Russian prisons they can get killed pretty quickly.

199 Talking Point Detective  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 12:43:08pm

re: #198 Sergey Romanov

In the US prisons are there any alleged informal methods for dealing with pedos among the prisoners (aside from the rape cliche)? In Russian prisons they can get killed pretty quickly.

I think it's pretty much a given that they will be targeted for attacks.

200 Eclectic Infidel  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 12:44:01pm

re: #194 Talking Point Detective

It's complicated. I don't know if the OPD is like the police in Philly, but in Philly there really is a lot of gang-like behavior on the part of the police. That's not to diminish the dangerous and complicated nature of the job, or the importance of what they're supposed to be doing, but there really is some gang-like shit that goes down quite regularly in this city. I'm not sure that OPD is that different.

Oh, I don't doubt the complication but I didn't like the comparison of OPD to the thugs who roam the streets in East Oakland.

201 makeitstop  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 12:44:41pm

re: #198 Sergey Romanov

In the US prisons are there any alleged informal methods for dealing with pedos among the prisoners (aside from the rape cliche)? In Russian prisons they can get killed pretty quickly.

I believe the derisive term for pedophiles in US prisons is 'short eyes.'

They are universally despised by general population and often meet with 'accidents.'

202 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 12:45:50pm

re: #198 Sergey Romanov

In the US prisons are there any alleged informal methods for dealing with pedos among the prisoners (aside from the rape cliche)? In Russian prisons they can get killed pretty quickly.

Yeah, "send them to the general population" is another such cliché.

203 Talking Point Detective  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 12:47:00pm

re: #195 EmmmieG

OT, but annoying me:

I'm getting tired of the "incidence in the showers" being referred to as "having sex with a young boy."

Correct words, please. He was raping the boy. Even if the kid wasn't screaming out, he was being raped.

I'm not trying to start a flame war here - but I really would like to know why it makes a difference to you which term is used. You obviously feel there's some detriment to not using the term rape - what do you think that is? Do you think it is, somehow, an attempt to diminish the severity of Sandusky's actions? And if so, what would be the intent of doing so?

204 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 12:47:09pm

re: #202 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

Yeah, "send them to the general population" is another such cliché.

I know, but does this lead to much more than rape - say, mutilation or death?

205 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 12:48:09pm

re: #196 albusteve

must be PC...boy rape is overload for most people

Perhaps the reason it's bugging me is that this particular instance, in the chain of it being reported on, went from a grad student witnesses a rape through various people on it's way to "inappropriate touching and horsing around" or some such nonsense. The people who testified to the Grand Jury made it sound as if at each step of the reporting, it was softened until the true scope of what had happened disappeared.

Or, the people who testified to the Grand Jury are lying and they really did understand what had happened. That's also a possibility.

But somehow, it sounds as if what actually happened to this poor child was lost.

Does this answer the question? I want the word to remain because in the past, "softening" caused justice to be ignored.

206 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 12:48:40pm

re: #204 Sergey Romanov

I know, but does this lead to much more than rape - say, mutilation or death?

I think there is definitely a scapegoating mentality behind the saying.

207 Digital Display  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 12:48:52pm

re: #196 albusteve

must be PC...boy rape is overload for most people

Steve..I pretty much know you..How could anyone walk in to a 10 year old being raped in the ass by a coach in the shower and not do something?
I know you..you know me..There would be blood in the shower from a defense of children...You know how they always talk about mama grizzlies?
So what about this man? He did nothing and later called his dad and not the cops.. I try to put myself into his shoes and I can't...There is no excuse for not saving a child..NONE!
Gosh Steve this is the worst..

208 Gus  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 12:51:58pm

Berlusconi has resigned.

Good riddance.

209 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 12:52:21pm

Ukrainian activists from Femen demonstrate in favor of joining Europe (slightly NSFW):

[Link: femen.livejournal.com...]

210 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 12:52:44pm

re: #208 Gus 802

Berlusconi has resigned.

Good riddance.

He'll be back.

211 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 12:53:13pm

re: #197 Talking Point Detective

I agree. Having sex with a boy is, by definition, rape. I don't think choice of terminology creates any differences in outcomes.

A lot of this is gendered, too. Those cases of these female teachers having sex with their 13 and 14 year old students will garner lots of argument that "that's not really rape". I say it is, and every bit as abusive and prosecutable as male-male adult/child rape.

212 Gus  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 12:53:26pm

re: #210 Sergey Romanov

He'll be back.

Yeah. He's made a come back before.

213 Talking Point Detective  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 12:53:47pm

re: #205 EmmmieG

Perhaps the reason it's bugging me is that this particular instance, in the chain of it being reported on, went from a grad student witnesses a rape through various people on it's way to "inappropriate touching and horsing around" or some such nonsense. The people who testified to the Grand Jury made it sound as if at each step of the reporting, it was softened until the true scope of what had happened disappeared.

Or, the people who testified to the Grand Jury are lying and they really did understand what had happened. That's also a possibility.

But somehow, it sounds as if what actually happened to this poor child was lost.

Does this answer the question? I want the word to remain because in the past, "softening" caused justice to be ignored.

I'm guessing that was to me? Thanks.

I think I get it now. I guess that still my question would be whether how it is reported now makes a difference. Maybe the softening of the terminology really is evidence that people tend to downplay the severity of these acts, for whatever reason - as can actually be seen in the sequence of events in this case? It isn't so much which term is used, but the fact that a tendency to soften the terminology is reflective of an unfortunate tendency towards denial or downplaying the importance of sexual abuse of children.

Is that right?

214 Amory Blaine  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 12:54:04pm

Lots of corruption among leadership (political, academia, business) being brought to light. Not a whole lot of justice though. Makes me wonder if they're just getting started.

215 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 12:54:35pm

re: #168 SanFranciscoZionist

We're not having a reality based conversation, we're talking about OWS.

To be pedantic: We're talking about our talking about OWS. Which is real.

Simply, I have, several times, had people respond to my criticism of OWS with long rants about how terrible the banking industry is (something I shall certainly not argue with), and concluding with how they just can't take criticism of Occupy groups seriously when--fiscal malfeasance! I've also, fairly recently, been called out by name to, essentially, stop giving aid and comfort to Killgore by insufficient freaking out over his spamming on the subject.

Thank your for your attempt at answering my question. I have basically seen this only from WindUpBird and windsagio.

If saying that people defending OWS have been a. sometimes emotional and silly about it and b. are, in fact, a substantial force on the blog, and that c. they are not being bullied, they are giving as good as they get is to summon the Magical Balance Fairy, great. Whatever. She's a cutie.

I said MBFish. It's a result of being unspecific and just comparing two sides as being roughly equal in some sense.

What I cannot fathom is what people who disagree with this believe.

I don't know whether people who are, even if just sometimes, emotional and silly about OWS are a substantial force on this blog. YMMV.

216 albusteve  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 12:54:42pm

re: #207 HoosierHoops

Steve..I pretty much know you..How could anyone walk in to a 10 year old being raped in the ass by a coach in the shower and not do something?
I know you..you know me..There would be blood in the shower from a defense of children...You know how they always talk about mama grizzlies?
So what about this man? He did nothing and later called his dad and not the cops.. I try to put myself into his shoes and I can't...There is no excuse for not saving a child..NONE!
Gosh Steve this is the worst..

somewhere along the line I learned to just react and I've been pounded senseless more than one...I think the guy just froze from fear at what he was seeing and figuring out his role, all in a few seconds....I would have stepped in and started knocking the shit out of the guy, or vice versa, but that's just me...I may have been stunned but not to the point of inaction....I see it, I go for it

217 laZardo  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 12:56:25pm

re: #209 Sergey Romanov

Femen as in rhyming with...

/uh-huh-huh-huh

218 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 12:56:35pm

re: #213 Talking Point Detective

I'm guessing that was to me? Thanks.

I think I get it now. I guess that still my question would be whether how it is reported now makes a difference. Maybe the softening of the terminology really is evidence that people tend to downplay the severity of these acts, for whatever reason - as can actually be seen in the sequence of events in this case? It isn't so much which term is used, but the fact that a tendency to soften the terminology is reflective of an unfortunate tendency towards denial or downplaying the importance of sexual abuse of children.

Is that right?

Yes. I saw an article once that you have to pick between being fair/just or being polite sometimes.

They chose polite, and let justice slide.

Person A reported to Person B, but softened it a bit. Person B reported it to Person C and softened it again, and so on. (IF we are to believe the Grand Jury report.) Is it possible that somewhere along the line was a person who, if they had known the actual truth, might have called the police? It's a guess, but that is what is bugging me.

If you can't guess, I would choose fair over polite. (And polite when it didn't matter.)

219 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 12:58:23pm

re: #217 laZardo

Femen as in rhyming with...

/uh-huh-huh-huh

Not really.

220 Gus  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 1:00:45pm

Too funny.

@nascar_jesus George Soros
What John Wilkes Booth was a Big Government Atheist Greenie who rode a bicycle to work? What? #OreillyLincolnErrors I never knew. Thnx Bill!

221 Gus  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 1:02:08pm

Conservative history. Where all the bad guys are either to the left on the political spectrum or are revised to be as such.

222 albusteve  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 1:06:37pm

re: #221 Gus 802

Conservative history. Where all the bad guys are either to the left on the political spectrum or are revised to be as such.

there is no such thing as conservative history...but you are free to make stuff up

223 Gus  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 1:08:48pm

re: #222 albusteve

there is no such thing as conservative history...but you are free to make stuff up

You're probably right! Because the education system is controlled by the left wing and Communistic teachers' union cabal that dictates how history is taught! And the textbooks are published by liberal Democrates!

//

225 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 1:10:05pm

re: #223 Gus 802

You're probably right! Because the education system is controlled by the left wing and Communistic teachers' union cabal that dictates how history is taught! And the textbooks are published by liberal Democrates Robert Byrd!

//

fxd!

lol

226 Gus  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 1:10:36pm

Right. And VDH, Glenn Buck, Jonah Goldberg, and Bill O'Really aren't really conservatives. All have dabbled in history in varying degrees. Plus, the Texas SBOE has never gotten involved in the content of history books. And we all know the Texas SBOE isn't conservative at all!

//

227 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 1:12:10pm

re: #226 Gus 802

Right. And VDH, Glenn Buck, Jonah Goldberg, and Bill O'Really aren't really conservatives. All have dabbled in history in varying degrees. Plus, the Texas SBOE has never gotten involved in the content of history books. And we all know the Texas SBOE isn't conservative at all!

//

Neither is David Barton! He went to the same school Anita Hill taught at, and EVERYBODY KNOWS she is a man-hating radical feministi!!

228 albusteve  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 1:12:16pm

re: #226 Gus 802

Right. And VDH, Glenn Buck, Jonah Goldberg, and Bill O'Really aren't really conservatives. All have dabbled in history in varying degrees. Plus, the Texas SBOE has never gotten involved in the content of history books. And we all know the Texas SBOE isn't conservative at all!

//

they are people, not ideas...they can say whatever they want

229 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 1:13:01pm

re: #222 albusteve

there is no such thing as conservative history...but you are free to make stuff up

hmmm

[Link: www.amazon.com...]
[Link: www.nationalreview.com...]
[Link: theweek.com...]
[Link: www.goodreads.com...]

230 Gus  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 1:13:49pm

re: #227 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

Neither is David Barton! He went to the same school Anita Hill taught at, and EVERYBODY KNOWS she is a man-hating radical feministi!!

Right, right, right. How could I forget. David Barton the famous un-conservative. Might as well toss in Phyllis Schlafly's son and Nut Gingrich. They're both a couple of famous un-conservatives as well.

//

231 Olsonist  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 1:14:24pm

re: #221 Gus 802

Conservative history. Where all the bad guys are either to the left on the political spectrum or are revised to be as such.

That would be Conservapedia. For a real laugh, check out their science section, for example the section on relativity. I kinda wonder how a conservative GPS unit would work, what with its dependence on the corrections of general relativity to account for the differing gravitational fields on earth and in GPS orbit.

232 jaunte  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 1:14:59pm

re: #226 Gus 802

I have it on good authority that it was all satire.

233 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 1:15:17pm

re: #228 albusteve

they are people, not ideas...they can say whatever they want

So can anyone. And?

234 Gus  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 1:16:01pm

re: #232 jaunte

I have it on good authority that it was all satire.

Like Ann Coulter!

//OK it wasn't really history. I was only joking.

//

235 MittDoesNotCompute  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 1:16:37pm

re: #99 NJDhockeyfan

Ironic you talk about respect (for cops), because you're being pretty damned disrespectful towards OCIHACOSP.

236 BongCrodny  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 1:16:38pm

re: #222 albusteve

there is no such thing as conservative history...but you are free to make stuff up

Conservapedia

237 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 1:16:47pm

re: #230 Gus 802

Right, right, right. How could I forget. David Barton the famous un-conservative. Might as well toss in Phyllis Schlafly's son and Nut Gingrich. They're both a couple of famous un-conservatives as well.

//

You NEVER say anything nice about conservatism!!!

Boo hoo!

238 Gus  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 1:17:08pm

Try teaching "alternative" history outside of a your average metro school district. Good luck with that.

239 BongCrodny  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 1:17:13pm

re: #231 Olsonist

That would be Conservapedia. For a real laugh, check out their science section, for example the section on relativity. I kinda wonder how a conservative GPS unit would work, what with its dependence on the corrections of general relativity to account for the differing gravitational fields on earth and in GPS orbit.

Late as usual. Sigh.

240 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 1:17:26pm
The aspiring narrative historian could forgive the opponents of narrative the dichotomies between narrative and analysis, between description and interpretation, between accessible history and sophisticated history. As any child might have said, not without justice: Stone and Woodward used those dichotomies first. He could almost forgive the argument that narrative history was, by nature, conservative history.

[Link: books.google.com...]

241 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 1:17:51pm

re: #229 000G

Actually, steve was just criticizing the notion that this dreck can be called "history", conservative or otherwise.

Right?

///

242 Talking Point Detective  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 1:18:18pm

re: #222 albusteve

there is no such thing as conservative history...but you are free to make stuff up

I am constantly reading on the Internet, from "conservatives," that the consensus view of history is inaccurate and distorted so at to brainwash people into having a view of history that is biased by leftist ideology.

What they offer instead, is a de facto "conservative" view of history. Notable examples: Lincoln was a dictator, the Civil War was a "war of Northern aggression," "progressives" during the New Deal harmed the economy in their zeal to exercise state control, etc.

Have you not read similar comments?

243 Gus  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 1:18:43pm

re: #241 Sergey Romanov

Actually, steve was just criticizing the notion that this dreck can be called "history", conservative or otherwise.

Right?

///

I hear it makes for great comedy.

244 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 1:19:08pm

re: #235 talon_262

Ironic you talk about respect for cops, because you're being pretty disrespectful towards OCIHACOSP.

YOU BETTER GODDAM FUCKING RESPECT WHO I TELL YOU TO RESPECT!

UNLESS YOU WANT ME TO THROW A TANTRUM! BECAUSE I WILL!!!1@

245 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 1:19:16pm

re: #238 Gus 802

Try teaching "alternative" history outside of a your average metro school district. Good luck with that.

What, please, is alternative history? Is that the one in which Benjamin Franklin has a little goatee and congress has torture chambers for people who get out of line?

246 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 1:19:27pm

re: #195 EmmmieG

OT, but annoying me:

I'm getting tired of the "incidence in the showers" being referred to as "having sex with a young boy."

Correct words, please. He was raping the boy. Even if the kid wasn't screaming out, he was being raped.

The sportscasters were calling it a sexual scandal at PS. Someone tweeted, if it was Paterno's wife and Sandusky in the shower it would be a sexual scandal, this was rape of a minor.

PITIFUL, and big fucking business being protected.

247 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 1:19:59pm

re: #243 Gus 802

I hear it makes for great comedy.

Good, coz it sure as heck ain't good toilet paper.

248 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 1:20:15pm

re: #234 Gus 802

Like Ann Coulter!

//OK it wasn't really history. I was only joking.

//

I bet HC sure is grateful for Penn State these days.

249 Gus  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 1:20:26pm

re: #245 EmmmieG

What, please, is alternative history? Is that the one in which Benjamin Franklin has a little goatee and congress has torture chambers for people who get out of line?

Stuff along the line of Howard Zinn. The history of the American West from an American Indian perspective. Etc.

250 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 1:20:49pm

re: #245 EmmmieG

And his name is Stan. Benjamin Stan Franklin.

251 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 1:21:39pm

re: #249 Gus 802

Stuff along the line of Howard Zinn. The history of the American West from an American Indian perspective. Etc.

Never read Zinn, but that he dabbled in trutherism says to me he's prolly not that good a historian.

252 albusteve  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 1:22:41pm

re: #241 Sergey Romanov

Actually, steve was just criticizing the notion that this dreck can be called "history", conservative or otherwise.

Right?

///

ah yes....others just need some friction
as for me I consider the terms liberal/conservative both as a collection of ideas regarding how to impose government...pretty simple....people can label themselves and redefine all they want but the original ideology is unmoved....they just need to come up with their own new terms instead of bastardizing what is already generally accepted for discourse and application

253 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 1:22:54pm

re: #246 Stanley Sea

The sportscasters were calling it a sexual scandal at PS. Someone tweeted, if it was Paterno's wife and Sandusky in the shower it would be a sexual scandal, this was rape of a minor.

PITIFUL, and big fucking business being protected.

A lot of people still believe rape has much of anything to do with sex. Just shows people's nasty attitude about what sex is, in my book.

254 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 1:23:46pm

re: #249 Gus 802

Stuff along the line of Howard Zinn. The history of the American West from an American Indian perspective. Etc.

You mean history focused on specific subjects, and pointing out specific events while ignoring others*?

There is no alternative history. There is only history, which is such a huge subject that you have to pick a tiny part to spotlight.

*Which is fine, if you aren't doing it to give incorrect impressions. For example. if you are writing a history of quilting in the American West, you might choose to report on one event that mattered to quilting, and ignore another that had no impact whatsoever.

255 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 1:24:22pm

re: #241 Sergey Romanov

Actually, steve was just criticizing the notion that this dreck can be called "history", conservative or otherwise.

Right?

///

Yeah. Probably.

//

256 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 1:24:25pm

re: #218 EmmmieG

Yes. I saw an article once that you have to pick between being fair/just or being polite sometimes.

They chose polite, and let justice slide.

Person A reported to Person B, but softened it a bit. Person B reported it to Person C and softened it again, and so on. (IF we are to believe the Grand Jury report.) Is it possible that somewhere along the line was a person who, if they had known the actual truth, might have called the police? It's a guess, but that is what is bugging me.

If you can't guess, I would choose fair over polite. (And polite when it didn't matter.)

I'm running behind the thread, but I'm going to post this again:

This was the best/worst synopsis of what happened that I read today,

According to the grand jury, then, here is how McQueary’s eyewitness account became watered down at each stage:

McQueary: anal rape.
Paterno: something of a sexual nature.
Schultz: inappropriately grabbing of the young boy’s genitals.
Curley: inappropriate conduct or horsing around.
Spanier: conduct that made someone uncomfortable.
Raykovitz: a ban on bringing kids to the locker room.

[Link: [Link: www.pennlive.com...]...]

majorly fucked up

257 Gus  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 1:24:26pm

re: #251 Sergey Romanov

Never read Zinn, but that he dabbled in trutherism says to me he's prolly not that good a historian.

In any event. There is always what could be perceived to be as bias in history. Not necessarily untruths but emphasis from one side or the other. I.e. we also have cases of omission or "white washing" of many events.

258 Gus  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 1:25:17pm

re: #254 EmmmieG

You mean history focused on specific subjects, and pointing out specific events while ignoring others*?

There is no alternative history. There is only history, which is such a huge subject that you have to pick a tiny part to spotlight.

*Which is fine, if you aren't doing it to give incorrect impressions. For example. if you are writing a history of quilting in the American West, you might choose to report on one event that mattered to quilting, and ignore another that had no impact whatsoever.

Yeah, like that.

259 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 1:25:38pm

re: #252 albusteve

people can label themselves and redefine all they want but the original ideology is unmoved...

What original ideology?

260 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 1:27:25pm

re: #253 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

A lot of people still believe rape has much of anything to do with sex. Just shows people's nasty attitude about what sex is, in my book.

Well, it is an essential aspect of rape, although the torture-domination part certainly is more important.

Kinda like cannibalism is essentially having a meal (or a snack) but there are more important essential aspects to it.

261 MittDoesNotCompute  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 1:29:57pm

re: #96 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

I just find it fascinating, this bizarre insistence that I must "respect" an entire group of people, some of whom may or may not "respect" me back, simply because they do a certain job. Weird.

To be sure, cops, firefighters, EMTs, and military personnel all do jobs that most of us wouldn't touch with a ten-foot pole, for any amount of money. I reckon that the overwhelming majority of those folks are good folks, doing their jobs out of a sense of duty and purpose for the communities and nation they serve, because for most of them, it sure as hell ain't for the money.

That said, there are bad apples everywhere and many PDs/FDs and the military services are not immune; I'm not gonna whitewash the problems, but I'm not going to perpetually castigate them all either. The pressure needs to be placed from the top down that misbehavior and corruption will not be tolerated and be continuous, because institutional inertia is very hard to overcome.

262 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 1:30:21pm

re: #254 EmmmieG

There is no alternative history. There is only history, which is such a huge subject that you have to pick a tiny part to spotlight.

I think he meant historiography, as in: the study and teaching of history as a subject. There is certainly mainstream historiography and then there are a variety of alternative historiographies.

Also, most people's access to history is through historiography. So, for better or worse, the two become practically synonymous in meaning, even though reality differs.

263 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 1:31:01pm

re: #256 Stanley Sea

Your link is garbled.

264 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 1:33:28pm

re: #261 talon_262

What I find funny is, castigate the "bad apples", and get a torrent of bullshit like, you never say anything good about any of them, you hate them all, you think they are all out to get you, you are not showing sufficient supplication for my personal comfort level so I'm going to act out then run away, etc.

Absurd.

265 MittDoesNotCompute  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 1:33:38pm

re: #159 BongCrodny

Oakland's got the fifth highest crime rate in the country and what looks to be the third highest rate of violent crime.

I'd want a big fat pile of money to be a cop in Oakland, too.

Not only that, but we are talking about a metropolitan area in CA, where I'm sure cost-of-living is pretty high.

266 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 1:35:42pm

re: #265 talon_262

Not only that, but we are talking about a metropolitan area in CA, where I'm sure cost-of-living is pretty high.

I used to date someone in E. Oakland. $1000/mo for a 1BR, a block from one of the famous intersections.

267 MittDoesNotCompute  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 1:37:44pm

re: #264 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

What I find funny is, castigate the "bad apples", and get a torrent of bullshit like, you never say anything good about any of them, you hate them all, you think they are all out to get you, you are not showing sufficient supplication for my personal comfort level so I'm going to act out then run away, etc.

Absurd.

Some people are just that way; facts are their Kryptonite.

268 CuriousLurker  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 2:21:50pm

re: #128 NJDhockeyfan

They aren't hired to respect anyone, they are hired to protect us. I respect them for all the work they do. Remember what I said...respect is earned.

I know I'm very late and everyone has moved on, but you're dead wrong on this, NJD. At least with regard to the NYPD—which is one of the oldest police departments in the nation, and is the largest municipal police force in the U.S.—respect is part of their core values. From the Mission and Values page of their website:

Mission

The Mission of the New York City Police Department is to enhance the quality of life in our City by working in partnership with the community and in accordance with constitutional rights to enforce the laws, preserve the peace, reduce fear, and provide for a safe environment.

Values

In partnership with the community, we pledge to:

• Protect the lives and property of our fellow citizens and impartially enforce the law.

• Fight crime both by preventing it and by aggressively pursuing violators of the law.

• Maintain a higher standard of integrity than is generally expected of others because so much is expected of us.

• Value human life, respect the dignity of each individual and render our services with courtesy and civility.

These values are also repeated on all NYPD vehicles in the form of their "CPR" motto, which stands for "Courtesy, Professionalism, Respect".

The citizens of NYC are not required to "earn" the respect of NYPD officers. Quite the contrary—they clearly hold themselves to a higher standard in terms of respect, civility, and integrity precisely because of their special position in society as protectors. To claim otherwise is, quite frankly, to be disrespectful of their professionalism and stated values.

269 CuriousLurker  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 2:38:34pm

re: #124 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

Are you suggesting the police need a reason to "respect" the public, which pays their salary?

I sure hope not.

FTR, the NYPD concurs. See my #268, above.

270 [deleted]  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 3:37:27pm
271 CuriousLurker  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 3:52:04pm

I disagree, especially with referring to them collectively as pigs.

I have an uncle who's a retired cop. He nearly lost his life working undercover narcotics when he was stabbed in the hand with a needle full of heroin. He's a decent family man, not a pig.

I think the vast majority of cops are decent people. When I have an emergency, I don't pick up the phone and ask 911 to send the pigs. When I got robbed as a cab driver, it wasn't pigs who showed up on the scene.

Justin Volpe, the cop who sodomized Abner Louima? Yeah, okay, he's a pig. He's also no longer a cop.

272 laZardo  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 4:05:34pm

re: #271 CuriousLurker

Tony Bologna's been at it since 2004.

He's gotten promoted since.

273 CuriousLurker  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 4:20:37pm

re: #272 laZardo

Tony Bologna's been at it since 2004.

He's gotten promoted since.

So his actions make all cops pigs? If that's the case, then I guess all Muslims are terrorists, all football coaches are pedophiles, all white people are racists & bigots, all latinos & blacks are violent, drug dealing thugs...

274 CuriousLurker  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 4:24:52pm

re: #273 CuriousLurker

Okay, I'm out. I'm not in the mood for this today.

275 Charles Johnson  Sat, Nov 12, 2011 4:32:11pm

It's not OK with me to use "pigs" to refer to policemen here.

276 Dom  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 1:40:55am

Pigs is a term with defensible history but long since in use by casual criminals and misguided youth in the UK. It is a slander linked to gang-mentality and protesters shouldn't try to reclaim the term.

Well done the police on the EDL arrests.


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