Police Evict OWS Protesters from Zuccotti Park

It was inevitable
US News • Views: 27,249

The big news this morning: New York police have cleared Zuccotti Park of Occupy Wall Street protesters, arresting nearly 200 of them in the process.

The police action was quickly challenged as lawyers for the protesters obtained a temporary restraining order barring the city and the park’s private landlord from evicting protesters or removing their belongings. It was not immediately clear how the city would respond. The judge, Justice Lucy Billings of State Supreme Court in Manhattan, scheduled a hearing for Tuesday.

The mayor, at his news conference, read a statement he had issued around 6 a.m. explaining the reasoning behind the sweep. “The law that created Zuccotti Park required that it be open for the public to enjoy for passive recreation 24 hours a day,” the mayor said in the statement. “Ever since the occupation began, that law has not been complied with” because the protesters had taken over the park, “making it unavailable to anyone else.”

“I have become increasingly concerned — as had the park’s owner, Brookfield Properties — that the occupation was coming to pose a health and fire safety hazard to the protesters and to the surrounding community,” Mr. Bloomberg said. He added that on Monday, Brookfield asked the city to assist in enforcing “the no sleeping and camping rules.

“But make no mistake,” the mayor said, “the final decision to act was mine and mine alone.”

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617 comments
1 Amory Blaine  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 9:07:23am

Now Wall Streeters can go back to work unmolested while they molest the American people out of their hard earned money.

Thank God.

2 kirkspencer  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 9:11:33am

Full statement. When you read it you learn that there's been a lot of selective quoting and speaking in ignorance.

3 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 9:12:49am

I am so grateful that finally there is an end to all the raping and stabbing in New York City.

4 Gus  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 9:13:17am

This Great Republic has been saved! Alas, now the hard working people and CEOs of Wall Street can go back to creating the next financial bubble utilizing legal financial mechanisms and instruments for the benefit of mankind and the American people.

5 makeitstop  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 9:15:01am

re: #2 kirkspencer

Full statement. When you read it you learn that there's been a lot of selective quoting and speaking in ignorance.

Obdicut earlier pointed out that Bloomberg's contention that the park has been made 'unavailable' for anyone but the protestors is not true.

Worth pointing out again.

6 Amory Blaine  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 9:15:16am

Got a whole mittfull of Walker recall petitions. This is gonna be fun.

7 Killgore Trout  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 9:15:42am

re: #2 kirkspencer

Full statement. When you read it you learn that there's been a lot of selective quoting and speaking in ignorance.

It seems the reasons are safety and sanitation which is the same problem in these camps all over the country. It's not surprising, we've seen the stories piling up for weeks now.

8 Gus  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 9:17:35am

re: #1 Amory Blaine

Now Wall Streeters can go back to work unmolested while they molest the American people out of their hard earned money.

Thank God.

Now they can go back to doing "God's work" Lloyd Blankfein

9 Decatur Deb  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 9:17:43am

re: #6 Amory Blaine

Got a whole mittfull of Walker recall petitions. This is gonna be fun.

Gopher it.

Image: gopher03.jpg

10 _RememberTonyC  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 9:17:54am

Has there been any comment from the local smaller businesses who say their livelihoods were disrupted? I believe protesters need to have their rights protected. But if the target of the demonstrators (Wall Street Bigs) are not harmed, but the regular small business owners near the park are harmed, I think their concerns also need to be addressed. This is not simply a black and white situation.

11 lawhawk  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 9:18:30am

re: #5 makeitstop

It was a whole lot more difficult for people to use the park while the protesters were there - and those involved in the Green Market and food stands that used to set up shop there on a daily basis would argue that they were deprived of their use and enjoyment of the park despite their being in compliance with local law, but anyone could make their way through the park while the protests were ongoing.

The Green Market relocated as a result of the protests, and many of the food vendors relocated - some to across Broadway, and others simply found other spots in Lower Manhattan.

12 RadicalModerate  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 9:18:38am

From Bloomberg's statement:

There is no ambiguity in the law here – the First Amendment protects speech – it does not protect the use of tents and sleeping bags to take over a public space.

Apparently he didn't finish reading the First Amendment.... you know, the part that refers to peaceable assembly.

13 iossarian  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 9:18:56am

re: #7 Killgore Trout

It seems the reasons are safety and sanitation which is the same problem in these camps all over the country. It's not surprising, we've seen the stories piling up for weeks now.

I find it interesting that there is a drive to tie physical dirtiness to this specific group of people in order to discredit their movement more generally.

It's a tactic that's been used before to vilify a group of people. If only I could remember where and when...

14 Killgore Trout  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 9:19:39am

Occupy Wall Street facing crackdowns in New York, waning support in poll

By a 66 percent to 31 percent margin, New York voters say that the Occupy Wall Street movement does not represent 99 percent of people, according to a Siena College poll today. But the poll said that by a 57 percent to 40 percent margin, protesters should be allowed to occupy public parks 24 hours a day.

Voters had a 45 percent to 44 percent favorable view of the movement, today's poll found. That's down from 49 percent to 38 percent last month.

15 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 9:20:33am

re: #12 RadicalModerate

From Bloomberg's statement:

Apparently he didn't finish reading the First Amendment... you know, the part that refers to peaceable assembly.

So apparently money is speech (Citizens United) but tents are not (OWS).

16 iossarian  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 9:20:55am

re: #15 000G

So apparently money is speech (Citizens United) but tents are not (OWS).

Tents made out of money?

17 Gus  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 9:21:03am

Yes. Because as we all know. Safety and environmental concerns has always been primary for Wall Street firms and the corporations they represent. Pay no attention to those islands of trash floating in our seas.

18 Killgore Trout  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 9:21:09am

re: #13 iossarian

I find it interesting that there is a drive to tie physical dirtiness to this specific group of people in order to discredit their movement more generally.

It's a tactic that's been used before to vilify a group of people. If only I could remember where and when...

Sorry, but it's a real issue. It's not some sort of right wing smear.

19 Wozza Matter?  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 9:21:25am

re: #3 000G

I am so grateful that finally there is an end to all the raping and stabbing in New York City.

Catty. Onthemoney. But catty.

20 Wozza Matter?  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 9:21:53am

re: #17 Gus 802

Yes. Because as we all know. Safety and environmental concerns has always been primary for Wall Street firms and the corporations they represent. Pay no attention to those islands of trash floating in our seas.

Or West Virginia mining stock....

21 iossarian  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 9:22:06am

re: #18 Killgore Trout

Sorry, but it's a real issue. It's not some sort of right wing smear.

It is a real issue that these people are filthy, like animals.

The Homeland must be purged of these vermin.

22 Gus  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 9:23:07am

re: #20 wozzablog

Or West Virginia mining stock...

And Exxon. We trust Wall Street to fully support climate change legislation as well. They are the pinnacle of environmental stewardship and cleanliness.

23 makeitstop  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 9:23:42am

re: #11 lawhawk

It was a whole lot more difficult for people to use the park while the protesters were there - and those involved in the Green Market and food stands that used to set up shop there on a daily basis would argue that they were deprived of their use and enjoyment of the park despite their being in compliance with local law, but anyone could make their way through the park while the protests were ongoing.

The Green Market relocated as a result of the protests, and many of the food vendors relocated - some to across Broadway, and others simply found other spots in Lower Manhattan.

True. But there is a wide gap between 'more difficult to use the park' and 'the park has been taken over by protestors, making it unavailable to anyone else.'

Disingenuous, at the least.

24 Decatur Deb  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 9:24:46am

re: #18 Killgore Trout

Sorry, but it's a real issue. It's not some sort of right wing smear.

I don't doubt that they've been a while between showers--think of it as a mild urban reflection of trench warfare (or a Boy Scout jamboree gone bad.)

25 Alexzander  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 9:24:46am

re: #13 iossarian

I find it interesting that there is a drive to tie physical dirtiness to this specific group of people in order to discredit their movement more generally.

It's a tactic that's been used before to vilify a group of people. If only I could remember where and when...

It's so incredibly predictable.

26 Alexzander  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 9:25:53am

re: #16 iossarian

Tents made out of money?

Good God man. You're a genius.

Someone form a SuperPac pronto.

27 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 9:27:12am

re: #21 iossarian

It is a real issue that these people are filthy, like animals.

The Homeland must be purged of these vermin.

People have the right to publish, to speak, to organize, and to peaceably and lawfully assemble.

Cities have had anti-camping ordinances for a long time. There are good reasons for this, and there are established campgrounds (usually in a more scenic location).

You can show up as dirty as you wish at a protest (although there are specific diseases, tuberculosis being one of them, which would legally allow the government to put you under quarantine).

You cannot pollute public parks or graffiti them. You cannot block traffic unnecessarily.

You can't poop on the ground in the middle of a city if you are a human being. Sheesh.

OWS have the right to protest, to speak, etc. They don't have the right to be a public health and safety menace. They need to find a way to become part of the public discussion and debate without the latter.

28 iossarian  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 9:28:08am

The right: clutching their pearls because of smelly hippies and low-level vandalism, while cheering on the torture of innocent people and the wanton destruction of the earth's environment.

29 Daniel Ballard  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 9:28:50am

Because the economy crashed so hard we got these tents. As a result of those tents so to speak) we have these tents.

It's a simple connection, one that defines us. How automatic is our contempt for the unemployed who dare to protest? The more peaceful and unobtrusive they are the less traction the message gets. The more violent and disruptive get the news coverage and are treated as if they are the heart of the movement.

So apart from just going away and staying out of site what would the critics suggest? Ask them to embrace the ineffectual?

30 Gus  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 9:29:05am

re: #28 iossarian

The right: clutching their pearls because of smelly hippies and low-level vandalism, while cheering on the torture of innocent people and the wanton destruction of the earth's environment.

My irony meter is at 11.

31 harrylook  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 9:29:07am

re: #15 000G

The City can impose reasonable time/place/manner regulations on speech.
OWS has been there 24/7 for how long? I don't think NYC can be accused of attacking 1st Amendment rights here.

32 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 9:29:12am

re: #28 iossarian

The right: clutching their pearls because of smelly hippies and low-level vandalism, while cheering on the torture of innocent people and the wanton destruction of the earth's environment.

FTFY.

33 RadicalModerate  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 9:30:12am

re: #14 Killgore Trout

Occupy Wall Street facing crackdowns in New York, waning support in poll

That's "waning" support? The only one that didn't have a majority was the contention that "the 99 percent" represented 99% of Americans.
Also, the change in the favorable view of the movement was within the statistical range of error in the poll - which means that it is essentially unchanged.

That's some Rasmussen-level cherry picking there.

34 Alexzander  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 9:30:25am

I found a picture of Killgore Trout cleaning the park of these dirty communist vermin:

Image: slide_196997_473947_splash.jpg


I kid, I kid.
But that picture really is from this morning.

35 Gus  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 9:30:35am

What America needs is more hedge funds and leveraging! That will save us!

36 iossarian  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 9:31:51am

OK. Back for more pearl-clutching LULZ later.

37 Daniel Ballard  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 9:31:59am

re: #24 Decatur Deb

That too is exaggerated. many of these people go home, shower and return. Urban downtown areas usually stink, just from the lack of public restrooms and the homelessness that exists.

38 Killgore Trout  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 9:32:09am

re: #24 Decatur Deb

I don't doubt that they've been a while between showers--think of it as a mild urban reflection of trench warfare (or a Boy Scout jamboree gone bad.)

It's not an issue of personal hygiene. It's human waste, food sanitation, people living in crowded conditions in cold weather, etc. It becomes a serious issue not just for the campers but for the surrounding residents and businesses.

39 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 9:32:55am

I see that Breitbart relies on RT for his coverage of the eviction.

40 jaunte  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 9:33:12am

The law forbids the rich as well as the poor from occupying a park with tents and sleeping bags; it also allows the poor, like the rich, free political speech through monetary contributions.

41 Four More Tears  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 9:33:57am

re: #40 jaunte

it also allows the poor, like the rich, free political speech through monetary contributions.

Heehee.

42 Decatur Deb  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 9:34:10am

re: #40 jaunte

The law forbids the rich as well as the poor from occupying a park with tents and sleeping bags; it also allows the poor, like the rich, free political speech through monetary contributions.

Upding for conscious or unconscious Anatole France paraphrase.

43 Gus  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 9:34:29am

re: #40 jaunte

The law forbids the rich as well as the poor from occupying a park with tents and sleeping bags; it also allows the poor, like the rich, free political speech through monetary contributions.

I'm just glad that I live in a country where the poor have as strong a voice in the political sphere as much as the rich.

//

44 jaunte  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 9:34:32am

re: #42 Decatur Deb

;

45 Killgore Trout  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 9:34:40am

Police Clear Church-Owned Lot, Arrest About 2 Dozen

At least four journalists, including a reporter and a photographer from The Associated Press, a reporter from The Daily News and a photographer from DNAInfo, were led out in plastic handcuffs.

A few of the detentions were done roughly -- one man was thrown on the ground by the police and officers kneeled on his back. But most were more routine.

A Trinity Church spokesman said of the protesters at their lot, "We did not invite any of those people in."

46 RadicalModerate  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 9:34:57am

By the way, unless you have adequate amounts of Valium (or equivalent), I'd recommend against reading the FoxNews comments regarding this. They're advocating the usage of live ammunition, and "wholesale eradication" of the protestors. They literally want to see dead liberals.

47 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 9:34:57am

Wingnut gloating: [Link: www.jammiewf.com...]

48 Decatur Deb  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 9:36:51am

re: #46 RadicalModerate

By the way, unless you have adequate amounts of Valium (or equivalent), I'd recommend against reading the FoxNews comments regarding this. They're advocating the usage of live ammunition, and "wholesale eradication" of the protestors. They literally want to see dead liberals.

Let them freak--perhaps they'll drive a last few marginals back to sanity.

49 Kronocide  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 9:36:57am

re: #43 Gus 802

I'm just glad that I live in a country where the poor have as strong a voice in the political sphere as much as the rich.

//

Commie! Who else would support lazy people but a communist. The poor should be waterboarded until they get a job.

50 Charles Johnson  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 9:37:06am

re: #46 RadicalModerate

By the way, unless you have adequate amounts of Valium (or equivalent), I'd recommend against reading the FoxNews comments regarding this. They're advocating the usage of live ammunition, and "wholesale eradication" of the protestors. They literally want to see dead liberals.

That's nothing new. The right wing sites have all been advocating wholesale murder ever since OWS began.

51 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 9:37:28am

re: #46 RadicalModerate

By the way, unless you have adequate amounts of Valium (or equivalent), I'd recommend against reading the FoxNews comments regarding this. They're advocating the usage of live ammunition, and "wholesale eradication" of the protestors. They literally want to see dead liberals.

Well, that's just nasty. The OWS needs to move into a political movement phase, with other ways of getting their message (have they decided on what that is? I'm all for "Gecko was wrong; Greed is Actually Bad"*) across to the population. You've got the nation's attention, now say something. Something coherent.

*Because it leads to speculation, which can lead to financial bubbles and collapse. This is bad.

52 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 9:37:29am

re: #40 jaunte

The law forbids the rich as well as the poor from occupying a park with tents and sleeping bags; it also allows the poor, like the rich, free political speech through monetary contributions.

That's pretty much the essence of it, yes. Oh, and if you're against those laws, you're a commie.

53 Amory Blaine  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 9:37:54am

Be bold and mighty forces will come to your aid ~ Basil King

54 Gus  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 9:38:16am

re: #49 BigPapa

Commie! Who else would support lazy people but a communist. The poor should be waterboarded until they get a job.

The rich are also known for sending their sons and daughters to fight for our freedoms.

55 makeitstop  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 9:38:24am

re: #47 000G

Wingnut gloating: [Link: www.jammiewf.com...]

Eh, you don't have to venture very far to witness anti-OWS gloating. Not very far at all.

56 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 9:38:51am

re: #47 000G

Wingnut gloating: [Link: www.jammiewf.com...]

'human debris'
Good old right, nothing's changed.

57 Charles Johnson  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 9:39:15am

Meanwhile, I'm totally grossed out to discover that the dead thread troll who defended Herman Cain this morning posted a comment here in 2006 defending the Ku Klux Klan.

If I had seen that comment before I would have blocked this SOB 5 years ago.

58 Decatur Deb  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 9:39:40am

re: #53 Amory Blaine

Be bold and mighty forces will come to your aid ~ Basil King

"Brought to you by the Brotherhood of Redundant Names, Local 233."

59 Four More Tears  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 9:39:41am

re: #51 EmmmieG

Well, that's just nasty. The OWS needs to move into a political movement phase, with other ways of getting their message (have they decided on what that is? I'm all for "Gecko was wrong; Greed is Actually Bad"*) across to the population. You've got the nation's attention, now say something. Something coherent.

*Because it leads to speculation, which can lead to financial bubbles and collapse. This is bad.

Coulda sworn Gordon Gekko was supposed to be a cautionary tale in the first place, not a life coach...

60 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 9:39:55am

re: #50 Charles

That's nothing new. The right wing sites have all been advocating wholesale murder ever since OWS began.

Interesting. I don't remember such a reaction from anyone about the Tea Party.

61 Obdicut  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 9:39:59am

The LHC may have provided an example of CP violation, thus actually broaching some new physics.

Stress on 'may'.

I mean, we know there is CP violation, otherwise the universe wouldn't exist, but this would be a cool thing.

Another way to put it, by the way, is a violation of charm.

[Link: cdsweb.cern.ch...]

62 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 9:40:09am

Must go an prepare a science lesson now. Sonar and Radar and Lasers.

The return of the Loch Ness Toad.

63 Obdicut  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 9:40:31am

re: #60 Sergey Romanov

Interesting. I don't remember such a reaction from anyone about the Tea Party.

I wanted them all served warm milk so that they'd develop bad breath.

64 Kronocide  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 9:40:34am

re: #56 Sergey Romanov

'human debris'
Good old right, nothing's changed.

human debris is a favorite term of Limbaugh. Just joking of course.

65 Daniel Ballard  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 9:40:46am

re: #45 Killgore Trout

And we have the Police arresting media again. Poor management & training I suppose.

66 Locker  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 9:41:20am

Health and safety my ass. Just an extremely transparent excuse to evict the protestors.

67 albusteve  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 9:42:30am

re: #47 000G

Wingnut gloating: [Link: www.jammiewf.com...]

that guy may be an old LGF poster

68 Gus  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 9:42:48am

As police officers cleared the Occupy Wall Street campsite in Zuccotti Park early Tuesday morning, many journalists were blocked from observing and interviewing protesters. Some called it a "media blackout" and said in interviews that they believed that the police efforts were a deliberate attempt to tamp down coverage of the operation.

[Link: cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com...]

69 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 9:42:49am

re: #55 makeitstop

Eh, you don't have to venture very far to witness anti-OWS gloating. Not very far at all.

That one is jam-packed, though. Links to NY Post articles etc. Gloating central.

70 Gus  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 9:43:28am

Reporters Say Police Denied Access to Protest Site
By BRIAN STELTER

11:42 a.m. | Updated As New York City police cleared the Occupy Wall Street campsite in Zuccotti Park early Tuesday morning, many journalists were blocked from observing and interviewing protesters. Some called it a “media blackout” and said in interviews that they believed that the police efforts were a deliberate attempt to tamp down coverage of the operation.

The city blog Gothamist put it this way: “The NYPD Didn’t Want You To See Occupy Wall Street Get Evicted.”

As a result, much of the early video of the police operation was from the vantage point of the protesters. Videos that were live-streamed on the Web and uploaded to YouTube were picked up by television networks and broadcast on Tuesday morning...

71 Obdicut  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 9:44:22am

re: #61 Obdicut

Here's a SA thread about the LHC result:

[Link: forums.somethingawful.com...]

72 Killgore Trout  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 9:44:58am

re: #65 Rightwingconspirator

And we have the Police arresting media again. Poor management & training I suppose.

I'm not sure. The cops usually issue warnings before they start arresting people. The media isn't immune from trespassing (or any other laws). If they stay on the private property that the protesters broke into I think they're probably subject to arrest like anyone else.

73 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 9:45:19am

re: #68 Gus 802

As police officers cleared the Occupy Wall Street campsite in Zuccotti Park early Tuesday morning, many journalists were blocked from observing and interviewing protesters. Some called it a "media blackout" and said in interviews that they believed that the police efforts were a deliberate attempt to tamp down coverage of the operation.

[Link: cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com...]

Interesting. The police have every right and obligation to act on lawful orders, but how can this be lawful?

74 Obdicut  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 9:45:25am

re: #70 Gus 802

I'm kind of unclear on what gives them the legal right to destroy tents and stuff. Is this just another outgrowth of the asset seizure laws that I already find overreaching? I mean, taking them away, sure, but destruction of them is weird.

75 Alexzander  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 9:46:09am

re: #46 RadicalModerate

By the way, unless you have adequate amounts of Valium (or equivalent), I'd recommend against reading the FoxNews comments regarding this. They're advocating the usage of live ammunition, and "wholesale eradication" of the protestors. They literally want to see dead liberals.

If we could just round up all of these commie deadbeats leaching off of the hard work of us real Americans.

76 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 9:46:20am

re: #51 EmmmieG

Speculation is not bad, all stock transactions are based on speculation for instance. The alternative to speculation would be a completely planned economy.

Saying "greed is bad" is not helpful. Greed is only what the other guy does. It's a moral judgement.

77 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 9:46:33am

re: #74 Obdicut

I read at kos they threw away ~5000 books in a dumpster.

78 BishopX  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 9:47:10am

re: #74 Obdicut

It's a lawsuit waiting to happen. Particularly the 5,000 books that got dumpstered this morning. That's unconscionable.

79 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 9:47:12am

re: #28 iossarian

The right: clutching their pearls because of smelly hippies and low-level vandalism, while cheering on the torture of innocent people and the wanton destruction of the earth's environment.

and covering up for child-battering parents
and excusing CEOs who grope single mothhers looing for a job
and booing soldiers in uniform who speak out against their repressive laws
and looking the other way when their clergy and politicians do dirty business with dictators

80 BishopX  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 9:47:51am

re: #77 Sergey Romanov

Seems like I need to learn to type faster, might have earned be a coke.

81 Darth Vader Gargoyle  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 9:48:11am

re: #76 000G

Speculation is not bad, all stock transactions are based on speculation for instance. The alternative to speculation would be a completely planned economy.

Saying "greed is bad" is not helpful. Greed is only what the other guy does. It's a moral judgement.

Exactly. Our free market is based on the fact that people are selfish or greedy. Governments need to keep the greed in check with regulation, which was/is lacking from portions of the financial markets.

82 Obdicut  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 9:48:24am

re: #77 Sergey Romanov

I read at kos they threw away ~5000 books in a dumpster.

Which, if true, is just dumb and pointlessly aggressive. What good does that do?

Hopefully it's not actually true and the books were just stored in a dumpster. But I've had someone who was there tell me the cops really were just cutting up tents. What's the legal backing for doing that?

83 Killgore Trout  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 9:48:26am

re: #73 Sergey Romanov

Interesting. The police have every right and obligation to act on lawful orders, but how can this be lawful?

If you build a makeshift house on your neighbor's lawn the police can come in and just haul it away. You can't just claim land by putting your stuff on it.

84 Gus  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 9:48:26am

re: #74 Obdicut

I'm kind of unclear on what gives them the legal right to destroy tents and stuff. Is this just another outgrowth of the asset seizure laws that I already find overreaching? I mean, taking them away, sure, but destruction of them is weird.

Well. It's hard to tell anymore since the expanded powers the police have been given with the existence of the Patriot Act and such. Perhaps it's an old law? Keep in mind thought that you'll also have Homeland Security ops in the vicinity due to the nature of the protests and the proximity to the center of American power, Wall Street. The power that be will see the overall Occupy movement as a threat to national security or can be construed as such. There are very powerful forces at play here.

85 makeitstop  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 9:48:52am

re: #70 Gus 802

Reporters Say Police Denied Access to Protest Site
By BRIAN STELTER

Rosie Gray, a writer for The Village Voice, recounted telling a police officer, “I’m press!” She said the officer responded, “Not tonight.”

Nope, no media suppression there.
/

86 Amory Blaine  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 9:48:59am

re: #74 Obdicut

I'm kind of unclear on what gives them the legal right to destroy tents and stuff. Is this just another outgrowth of the asset seizure laws that I already find overreaching? I mean, taking them away, sure, but destruction of them is weird symbolic.

87 jaunte  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 9:49:11am

No photos from inside buildings.

After approaching the west side of the park at Church and Cortland at around 2 a.m., a police officer standing behind a barricade is asked why members of the press aren't permitted to view what's happening under the massive flood lights in Zuccotti Park. "Stay behind the barricade." Would two employees watching the door at One Liberty Plaza let us in to take photos of the park from behind glass? "We got in trouble for that already," one replied. "We let the press in. The cops yelled at us. Now get out of here, walk south."
[Link: gothamist.com...]

88 Gus  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 9:49:18am

re: #83 Killgore Trout

If you build a makeshift house on your neighbor's lawn the police can come in and just haul it away. You can't just claim land by putting your stuff on it.

Ask the American Indians that question. But I digress here and present only a philosophical question.

89 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 9:49:22am

re: #83 Killgore Trout

If you build a makeshift house on your neighbor's lawn the police can come in and just haul it away. You can't just claim land by putting your stuff on it.

You've lost the thread of this conversation. Backtrack.

90 BishopX  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 9:50:20am

Rumor from live stream, the judge who issued the injunction got pulled off the case... but the protestors apparently have a courtroom.


[Link: www.ustream.tv...]

91 Obdicut  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 9:50:38am

re: #83 Killgore Trout

We're not talking about a makeshift house on a neighbor's lawn, though.

Hell, even if they were just seizing the tents and giving them to needy kids, it'd make more sense than destroying them.

92 Decatur Deb  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 9:50:52am

re: #77 Sergey Romanov

I read at kos they threw away ~5000 books in a dumpster.

Hippy Hipsters don't read dead trees. Kindles, or they're all provocateurs.

93 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 9:51:00am

re: #89 Sergey Romanov

(I.e. actually read what I was responding to.)

94 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 9:51:12am

re: #31 harrylook

The City can impose reasonable time/place/manner regulations on speech.
OWS has been there 24/7 for how long? I don't think NYC can be accused of attacking 1st Amendment rights here.

Fine. Are you in favor of the Citizens United SCOTUS decision?

95 Gus  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 9:51:44am

re: #79 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

and covering up for child-battering parents
and excusing CEOs who grope single mothhers looing for a job
and booing soldiers in uniform who speak out against their repressive laws
and looking the other way when their clergy and politicians do dirty business with dictators

• Corporations are people.
• Eminent domain.
• Citizens united.

The rights of the monied class shall not be infringed by the weak and powerless!

96 Amory Blaine  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 9:51:45am

Watching Diane Sawyer interview Gabby Giffords on ABC.

97 Darth Vader Gargoyle  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 9:51:46am

re: #92 Decatur Deb

Hippy Hipsters don't read dead trees. Kindles, or they're all provocateurs.

I heard it was 5000 copies of the Communist Manifesto.
//

98 Killgore Trout  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 9:51:49am

re: #89 Sergey Romanov

You've lost the thread of this conversation. Backtrack.

Your property is forfeited when you place it on somebody else's land. This is nothing new, not a police state, not authoritarian totalitarianism, just common sense. I assume the police gave warning, if people wanted to keep their property they needed to take it with them when they left.

99 Daniel Ballard  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 9:51:55am

re: #72 Killgore Trout

Actually, credentialed media do have some special protections. Particularly when standing on a public spot-sidewalk or in one case at hand a phone booth. It does not get much more public than that.

100 jaunte  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 9:51:57am

No photos from helicopters.

* Update: This is never a good sign: “The unexpected raid was accompanied by an attempted media blackout, as the police prohibited reporters (including those with press passes) from going to the park, closed the subways leading to downtown Manhattan, and even prevented news helicopters from flying in the airspace over the park.”
[Link: www.washingtonmonthly.com...]

101 Shiplord Kirel  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 9:52:26am

OT (hope it's not too early)

Were you perhaps thinking that Glenn Beck couldn't get any wackier?

Think again:

Beck: Santorum may be 'the next George Washington'

102 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 9:52:52am

re: #82 Obdicut

Which, if true, is just dumb and pointlessly aggressive. What good does that do?

Hopefully it's not actually true and the books were just stored in a dumpster. But I've had someone who was there tell me the cops really were just cutting up tents. What's the legal backing for doing that?

dirty hiipies were begging for it. /

103 lawhawk  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 9:53:03am

re: #82 Obdicut

Read reports that the possessions in the park were being stored for later retrieval by the protesters. Not sure about the books - but it's possible some may have been disposed of because they were wet and could pose health hazard (bedbugs/etc.).

Don't quite know the reasoning behind tearing up the tents, if that happened.

104 Daniel Ballard  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 9:53:09am

re: #100 jaunte

And I thought only the FAA could restrict airspace. NYC is getting away with some interesting violations.

105 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 9:53:18am

re: #98 Killgore Trout

You're digging in. After I've pointed out that you lost track. That's weird behavior.
I was not responding to a post about lost property.

106 RadicalModerate  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 9:53:34am

re: #46 RadicalModerate

And now, they've gone to veiled assassination threats.... which the bottom-feeders are roaring in approval to.

ousooner1958 3 minutes ago
...............2012.....WE EXTERMINATE THIS VERMIN OUT OF OUR WHITE HOUSE TOO!!!!.........
7 people liked this.

107 jaunte  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 9:54:12am

re: #104 Rightwingconspirator

Defending against ows paratroops.

108 Obdicut  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 9:54:18am

re: #98 Killgore Trout

Your property is forfeited when you place it on somebody else's land.

What law says that?

I'm pretty sure tort law is a wee bit more complex than that.

109 Darth Vader Gargoyle  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 9:54:21am

re: #106 RadicalModerate

And now, they've gone to veiled assassination threats... which the bottom-feeders are roaring in approval to.

Secret Service might find that interesting...

110 Alexzander  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 9:54:31am

re: #77 Sergey Romanov

I read at kos they threw away ~5000 books in a dumpster.

Yup. As a bibliophile that would break my heart to see. Actually it probably upsets me more than tearing down the tents.

111 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 9:54:34am

re: #81 rwdflynavy

Exactly. Our free market is based on the fact that people are selfish or greedy. Governments need to keep the greed in check with regulation, which was/is lacking from portions of the financial markets.

You do not have a "free market" (that whole term is pretty much meaningless anyhow. Markets are a secondary phenomenon to an economy. Economies are constituted by what gets traded on markets, and without government and laws all markets would be black or grey markets anyhow).

And government does not need to keep greed in check but stealing and defrauding – yknow, actual infringement on other people's rights, not morally questionable motives and feelings. Government has not been very good at that. Which is why your banking sector, for instance, is monopolized by a handful of Too Big To Fail players.

112 wrenchwench  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 9:54:45am

Great. Another thread derailed by OWS bickering.

Oh, wait....

113 Gus  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 9:54:51am

re: #100 jaunte

No photos from helicopters.

Bastards.

114 Killgore Trout  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 9:54:52am

re: #100 jaunte

No photos from helicopters.

That's because police helicopters get right of way in a situation like this. Once again, nothing new, nothing outrageous, no oppression, etc. There are limited vantage points in cities with tall buildings and to avoid air collisions the police clear air traffic in the area so they can work. Just common sense.

115 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 9:54:54am

re: #31 harrylook

The City can impose reasonable time/place/manner regulations on speech.
OWS has been there 24/7 for how long? I don't think NYC can be accused of attacking 1st Amendment rights here.

i sure hope you're not the type who complains about "pc".

It has nothing on the Bloomberg administration.

116 makeitstop  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 9:55:22am

re: #107 jaunte

Defending against ows paratroops.

And those hippie dirigibles.
/

117 BishopX  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 9:55:46am

re: #104 Rightwingconspirator

The NYPD also has the capacity to engage aircraft over NYC... I think this is a case of NYC is special.

118 lawhawk  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 9:55:58am

re: #100 jaunte

The subway closures were to prevent other people joining in the protests and making a bad situation even worse. The media blackout and helicopters being told to stand off makes some sense if the NYPD was itself flying helicopters to manage the situation and they didn't want to worry about potential air collisions.

Those actions seem reasonable, but arresting journalists within the park while the journalists are doing their job seems unreasonable.

119 jaunte  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 9:56:17am

re: #114 Killgore Trout

That does make sense.

120 Obdicut  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 9:57:05am

re: #103 lawhawk

Well, my friend who said it happened isn't even an OWS sympathizer, just an observer type. He may have misconstrued what happened or got it wrong. I know it has occurred (the destruction of property) at other Occupy places.

All of this continually reminds me of the shitty, stupid homeless sweeps that Mayor Jordan did in San Francisco long ago that solved nothing.

And I still think that if the protesters move to not using tents and sleeping bags their statement and commitment will be more powerful, not less. A lot of the brou-ha-ha surrounding this is just the logistics of "occupying" space.

121 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 9:57:22am

re: #108 Obdicut

It doesn't even matter what law says it. KT is not looking at the posts he is responding to. I was responding to an item about the police allegedly barring reporters from doing their job. Weird.

122 Darth Vader Gargoyle  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 9:57:30am

re: #111 000G

You do not have a "free market" (that whole term is pretty much meaningless anyhow. Markets are a secondary phenomenon to an economy. Economies are constituted by what gets traded on markets, and without government and laws all markets would be black or grey markets anyhow).

And overnment does not need to keep greed in check but stealing and defrauding – yknow, actual infringement on other people's rights, not morally questionable motives and feelings. Government has not been very good at that. Which is why your banking sector, for instance, is monopolized by a handful of Too Big To Fail players.

"Free" versus a centralized market where supply, demand and prices are set by the government.

123 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 9:57:46am

re: #98 Killgore Trout

Your property is forfeited when you place it on somebody else's land. This is nothing new, not a police state, not authoritarian totalitarianism, just common sense. I assume the police gave warning, if people wanted to keep their property they needed to take it with them when they left.

Actually, no, you do not magically "forfeit" your property when you place it on somebody else's land. It's still legally yours.

124 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 9:57:57am

re: #114 Killgore Trout

That's because police helicopters get right of way in a situation like this. Once again, nothing new, nothing outrageous, no oppression, etc. There are limited vantage points in cities with tall buildings and to avoid air collisions the police clear air traffic in the area so they can work. Just common sense.

All this, according to...?

125 Killgore Trout  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 9:58:07am

re: #119 jaunte

That does make sense.

Most cities have rules about that. Every couple of years news choppers have mid air collisions trying to get the best angle on a car chase or whatever.

126 Obdicut  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 9:58:12am

re: #121 Sergey Romanov

It doesn't even matter what law says it. KT is not looking at the posts he is responding to. I was responding to an item about the police allegedly barring reporters from the site. Weird.

I've gotten used to Killgore apparently reading my posts with the aid of a funhouse mirror.

127 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 9:58:37am

re: #122 rwdflynavy

"Free" versus a centralized market where supply, demand and prices are set by the government.

Does it really matter whether the monopoly is private or not?

128 jaunte  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 9:58:57am

re: #125 Killgore Trout

The police do seem oversensitive to photography.

129 Darth Vader Gargoyle  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 9:59:16am

re: #127 000G

Does it really matter whether the monopoly is private or not?

Oh, you just want to argue even when folks agree with you. I get it.

That's nice.

130 Eventual Carrion  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 9:59:30am

re: #83 Killgore Trout

If you build a makeshift house on your neighbor's lawn the police can come in and just haul it away. You can't just claim land by putting your stuff on it.

Who owns the park? Where did the money come from for the park? Does one person own it? Do they have a deed for the parcel? Who pays the taxes for the park (or is the park paid for BY taxes)?

131 lawhawk  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 9:59:57am

re: #130 RayFerd

Brookfield Properties.

132 Amory Blaine  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 10:00:08am

The park is private, but it is considered the commons.

133 blueraven  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 10:00:11am

re: #101 Shiplord Kirel

OT (hope it's not too early)

Were you perhaps thinking that Glenn Beck couldn't get any wackier?

Think again:

Beck: Santorum may be 'the next George Washington'

Beck has to make progressively outrageous statements to remain relevant. Maybe he has just jumped the shark.

134 Gus  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 10:01:02am

Uh. The airspace is rather large over the area.

[Link: twitter.com...]

There are already established rules of separation and altitude limits for that area.

135 Obdicut  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 10:01:47am

re: #103 lawhawk

Unrelated to Occupy:

The judge for Sandusky has set his bail at $100,000, not actually having to be paid, and she herself was a volunteer at his charity. Would it be normal for a judge to recuse themselves in that sort of situation, am I thinking that's very lenient bail, and what does it take to review a bail condition?

136 makeitstop  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 10:02:00am

re: #120 Obdicut

Well, my friend who said it happened isn't even an OWS sympathizer, just an observer type. He may have misconstrued what happened or got it wrong. I know it has occurred (the destruction of property) at other Occupy places.

All of this continually reminds me of the shitty, stupid homeless sweeps that Mayor Jordan did in San Francisco long ago that solved nothing.

AP had a video clip of stuff from Zuccotti being loaded straight into garbage trucks.

Youtube Video
137 Obdicut  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 10:02:26am

re: #134 Gus 802

I think it makes sense that the area near the World Trade Center would have some restrictive rules about airspace, though. That seems like the least outragey thing going on here.

138 Daniel Ballard  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 10:02:37am

re: #117 BishopX

Yes they can shoot at aircraft.
But the FAA issues the Temporary Flight restrictions. Obstructing media is not what they do. That would be the province of the NYPD by choice, legal or not.

[Link: www.faa.gov...]

139 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 10:03:16am

re: #135 Obdicut

Unrelated to Occupy:

The judge for Sandusky has set his bail at $100,000, not actually having to be paid, and she herself was a volunteer at his charity. Would it be normal for a judge to recuse themselves in that sort of situation, am I thinking that's very lenient bail, and what does it take to review a bail condition?

Threadjacking!

///

140 Killgore Trout  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 10:03:27am

re: #128 jaunte

The police do seem oversensitive to photography.

It's hard to tell. There's so much hysteria about police state, oppression, silencing the press, etc I suspect the claims are overblown. There are plenty of MSM photos and videos so I don't think the press is being suppressed.

141 William Barnett-Lewis  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 10:04:25am

re: #29 Rightwingconspirator

So apart from just going away and staying out of site what would the critics suggest? Ask them to embrace the ineffectual?

Perhaps they should wear blue wool coats and Kepi's to balance the Teabagger's tricorn hats?

142 Eventual Carrion  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 10:04:52am

re: #131 lawhawk

Brookfield Properties.

Thanks. To you and Amory Blaine

143 Alexzander  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 10:05:20am

re: #140 Killgore Trout

It's hard to tell. There's so much hysteria about police state, oppression, silencing the press, etc I suspect the claims are overblown. There are plenty of MSM photos and videos so I don't think the press is being suppressed.

Help Help! I'm being Oppressed!
Come see the violence inherent in the system!

144 Amory Blaine  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 10:05:22am

Press being suppressed.

145 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 10:06:08am

I think I'm gonna d/l Attack the Block. Trailer seemed nifty.

146 Obdicut  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 10:06:27am

re: #140 Killgore Trout

Why isn't anyone talking about all the reporters they didn't arrest?

/

147 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 10:07:23am

re: #102 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

dirty hiipies were begging for it. /

It's common sense!

148 makeitstop  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 10:07:48am

re: #146 Obdicut

Why isn't anyone talking about all the reporters they didn't arrest?

/

Ah, the Cain Rule!

'For every journalist who was arrested or kept from doing their jobs, there are thousands who weren't!'

Except those thousands were all home sleeping at the time.
/

149 Four More Tears  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 10:07:52am

re: #146 Obdicut

Why isn't anyone talking about all the reporters they didn't arrest?

/

For every reporter they have arrested, there are many thousands they haven't!

150 jaunte  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 10:09:23am

Arresting journalists can get expensive

Reporters Arrested at 2008 Republican Convention Reach Settlement
Journalist Amy Goodman, host of the syndicated program "Democracy Now!" and two of her producers will receive $100,000 in a settlement over their arrests during the 2008 Republican National Convention in St. Paul, their attorney said Monday.

Their attorney, Anjana Samant of the Center for Constitutional Rights, also said St. Paul and Minneapolis have agreed to develop a policy and training for police officers on how to avoid infringing on the First Amendment rights of journalists who cover big protests.

151 lawhawk  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 10:09:33am

re: #135 Obdicut

I made those same observations yesterday. Based on the seriousness of the crimes, even the $500k the prosecutors were asking for seems low. The judge should have recused herself because she was involved in the charity.

I've looked into the PA rules on reviewing bail. The PA Constitution has the following:

Article I, § 14 of the Pennsylvania Constitution was amended in 1998 to read: ‘‘All prisoners shall be bailable by sufficient sureties, unless for capital offenses or for offenses for which the maximum sentence is life imprisonment or unless no condition or combination of conditions other than imprisonment will reasonably assure the safety of any person and the community when the proof is evident or presumption great; and the privilege of the writ of habeas corpus shall not be suspended, unless when in case of rebellion or invasion the public safety may require it.’’

That would seem to allow for no bail in the case, but the $100k seems low. A court could review bail.

A bail order may be modified by an issuing authority at the preliminary hearing.

(C) The existing bail order may be modified by a judge of the court of common pleas:

(1) at any time prior to verdict upon motion of counsel for either party with notice to opposing counsel and after a hearing on the motion; or

(2) at trial or at a pretrial hearing in open court on the record when all parties are present.

(D) Once bail has been set or modified by a judge of the court of common pleas, it shall not be modified except

(1) by a judge of a court of superior jurisdiction, or

(2) by the same judge or by another judge of the court of common pleas either at trial or after notice to the parties and a hearing.

This case seems ripe for a modification of bail, but it may take some time for that to happen. The additional people coming forward to claim abuse may spur a review faster.

152 Gus  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 10:10:08am

Issue Date : November 14, 2011 at 1723 UTC
Location : Newark/Cresskill, New Jersey and New York, New York
Beginning Date and Time : November 15, 2011 at 2115 UTC
Ending Date and Time : November 17, 2011 at 0245 UTC
Reason for NOTAM : Temporary flight restrictions for VIP Movement
Type : VIP
Replaced NOTAM(s) : 1/4820: and 1/4821 due to change of location and times of restrictions
Jump To: Affected Areas
Operating Restrictions and Requirements
Other Information

No pilots may operate an aircraft in the areas covered by this NOTAM (except as described).

Except the flight operations listed below:

All IFR arrivals or departures to/from airports within this TFR.

Approved; law enforcement, fire fighting,military aircraft directly supporting the united states secret service (USSS) and the office of the vice president of the united states, and MEDEVAC /air ambulance flights.

Aircraft operations necessitated for safety or emergency reasons.

Aircraft that receive ATC authorization in consultation with the air traffic security coordinator (ATSC) via the domestic events network(DEN).

[Link: tfr.faa.gov...]

153 Gus  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 10:11:48am

Yeah. Who cares about a little thing called "freedom of the press." Don't worry. They're from the government and they're here to help.

//

154 Obdicut  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 10:12:22am

re: #151 lawhawk

Thanks. I mean, hell, just for his own safety I'd think they'd want him locked up. What if some grieving relative of one of the kids shoots him?

But he appears to be launching the weirdest of all defenses, the 'horseplay' defense, already admitting taking showers with young children.

Number of people I know that take showers with young children (who aren't their own): 0.

I hope the prosecutor makes a fuss until the bail gets changed. I really don't want to see him dead either by his hand or another's before the trial.

155 Amory Blaine  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 10:12:37am

re: #150 jaunte

Arresting journalists can get expensive

It should be costly. This is our freedom we're talking about.

156 RadicalModerate  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 10:12:59am

re: #152 Gus 802

That issuance looks like Vice President Biden is coming to visit the NYC area. Is this the case?

157 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 10:13:14am

re: #129 rwdflynavy

Oh, you just want to argue even when folks agree with you. I get it.

That's nice.

Err, no. You made it a point that "free market" was just absence of government monopoly. But in the banking sector, you do have a private monpoly, proppedup by Too Big Too Fail status. So the distinction is pretty much meaningless.

"Free market" ideology is just bull.

158 Gus  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 10:13:27am

re: #156 RadicalModerate

That issuance looks like Vice President Biden is coming to visit the NYC area. Is this the case?

That's what it says.

159 Gus  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 10:14:07am

re: #156 RadicalModerate

That issuance looks like Vice President Biden is coming to visit the NYC area. Is this the case?

I didn't check the map to deeply. But it seems like it might cover that area.

160 Obdicut  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 10:14:42am

re: #156 RadicalModerate

That issuance looks like Vice President Biden is coming to visit the NYC area. Is this the case?

Aw shit! Occupy's just going to turn into a big ol' PARTAY!

Image: Shirtless-Biden-R.jpg

How many kegs is Biden bringing?

161 Kragar  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 10:14:52am

Spec-Ops Command: SEAL raid book 'a lie'

162 lawhawk  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 10:16:04am

re: #134 Gus 802

There are two vantage points from which a helicopter would get a clear view of the park - and that would be either from due east or west of the park. Northern and Southern vantages are blocked by skyscrapers, and even the Eastern vantage is blocked by buildings, but the setback allows for restricted views.

That means that the best vantage would be someone flying a helicopter over the WTC site or directly overhead the park itself. With the ongoing construction and limitations on aircraft in place, it's a pretty crowded airspace (and a dangerous one that has seen quite a few accidents in recent years - helicopter crashing into a propeller aircraft a couple years ago, helicopter crashes involving news choppers, and tour choppers). Limiting access directly over the park seems reasonable, particularly at night because of low visibility and the potential to fly into buildings or each other.

Not quite the same thing for flying over Foley Square or Union/Washington Square - lower buildings, less obstructions, and more vantage points.

163 Amory Blaine  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 10:16:05am

Where's Techno Viking when you need him?!!?

164 Gus  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 10:16:30am

Vice President Joe Biden to attend fundraiser in Cresskill

CRESSKILL — Vice President Joe Biden will be in Bergen County to attend a fundraiser tonight.

Couples will pay $10,000 for dinner at the Cresskill home of public relations and lobbying firm executive Michael Kempner.

A campaign official tells The Record of Woodland Park money raised will go to the Obama Victory Fund. It's a joint committee of the re-election campaign and the Democratic National Committee.

The newspaper reports Kempner is one of President Barack Obama's top "bundlers" capable of gathering large amounts of contributions...

165 Kragar  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 10:16:48am

re: #160 Obdicut

Aw shit! Occupy's just going to turn into a big ol' PARTAY!

Image: Shirtless-Biden-R.jpg

How many kegs is Biden bringing?

Youtube Video
166 Gus  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 10:16:59am

re: #162 lawhawk

Let's move on shall we.

167 Alexzander  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 10:17:17am

Killgore Trout needs some backup on the anti (or skeptical/critical) OWS side of this debate.

LGF really is a bastion of radical leftist ideology these days.
//

168 makeitstop  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 10:17:31am

re: #156 RadicalModerate

That issuance looks like Vice President Biden is coming to visit the NYC area. Is this the case?

I don't see any news items about it - just his visit on Veterans' Day.

169 bratwurst  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 10:17:34am

re: #160 Obdicut

Aw shit! Occupy's just going to turn into a big ol' PARTAY!

Image: Shirtless-Biden-R.jpg

How many kegs is Biden bringing?

You know it has been AGES since we had a concerned right winger post the totally bogus "drunken Joe Biden" video!

170 BishopX  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 10:18:46am

re: #159 Gus 802

It seems odd that Biden would be there at that point. He was in DC for a 3:30 pm meeting yesterday, and is in Ohio at 1:00PM today before going to a campaign event in Creskill NJ at 6:30....

171 lawhawk  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 10:18:53am

re: #154 Obdicut

Absolutely, I can't imagine what his lawyer was thinking in letting him do that interview. It creates far more problems than it could ever hope to solve, and his answers were odd to put the most positive spin on them.

Having to pause before answering questions about the abuse in the shower witnessed by McQueary? That doesn't look good; if he didn't do it, I would expect him to be shouting from the highest towers that he did no such thing.

So, yes it does appear that he's going with this horseplay defense. Maybe he really thinks what he did wasn't wrong.

172 makeitstop  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 10:19:12am

re: #168 makeitstop

I don't see any news items about it - just his visit on Veterans' Day.

Amended due to Gus' link in #164. I stand corrected.

173 makeitstop  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 10:19:54am

re: #167 Alexzander

Killgore Trout needs some backup on the anti (or skeptical/critical) OWS side of this debate.

LGF really is a bastion of radical leftist ideology these days.
//

We're radical left, baby!
///

175 Sol Berdinowitz  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 10:20:29am

The physical presence of tents in the park is purely symbolic. Seems that the local protestors can still keep up a daily vigil, just go home to sleep in their beds at night. And the locals could offer beds to out-of-town protestors as well...

176 Gus  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 10:20:44am

Capitalist production, therefore, develops technology, and the combining together of various processes into a social whole, only by sapping the original sources of all wealth - the soil and the labourer.

177 makeitstop  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 10:21:01am

re: #170 BishopX

It seems odd that Biden would be there at that point. He was in DC for a 3:30 pm meeting yesterday, and is in Ohio at 1:00PM today before going to a campaign event in Creskill NJ at 6:30...

Which means he'd be flying in from the west, probably not entering NYC air space. Odd.

178 Darth Vader Gargoyle  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 10:21:32am

re: #157 000G

Err, no. You made it a point that "free market" was just absence of government monopoly. But in the banking sector, you do have a private monpoly, proppedup by Too Big Too Fail status. So the distinction is pretty much meaningless.

That's nice.

179 lawhawk  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 10:22:39am

re: #175 ralphieboy

Rhetorical question - are the tents protected as free speech? (We are talking about "Occupy Wall Street" after all).

That's the tact I think the lawyers for the protesters would use - and they did find a judge favorable to their position.

But as with all things relating to the 1st Amendment, there are limitations on speech, and this might have crossed the line.

180 Interesting Times  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 10:23:20am

re: #176 Gus 802

Capitalist production, therefore, develops technology, and the combining together of various processes into a social whole, only by sapping the original sources of all wealth - the soil and the labourer.

Both of which are trodden upon and treated like dirt.

181 BishopX  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 10:23:31am

re: #174 Alexzander

link no worky.

182 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 10:23:48am

re: #178 rwdflynavy

That's nice.

Keep believing in your "free market" unicorns, dude. More "power" to ya.

183 lawhawk  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 10:24:32am

re: #177 makeitstop

It would depend on what airport he's using. If Newark, then he could affect NYC metro airspace depending on the approach. If LGA, then he's definitely affecting NYC metro airspace. The alerts are also meant to warn pilots and ATC of possible VIP and priority routings that can affect airport operations at all 3 local major airports (EWR, LGA, and JFK).

184 blueraven  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 10:25:08am

re: #140 Killgore Trout

It's hard to tell. There's so much hysteria about police state, oppression, silencing the press, etc I suspect the claims are overblown. There are plenty of MSM photos and videos so I don't think the press is being suppressed.

Some people exaggerate=nothing to see here?

Both things can be true you know. Yes, some claims of police state and such are over the top. But it does appear that the press was being obstructed in some cases.

185 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 10:25:33am

re: #179 lawhawk

Rhetorical question - are the tents protected as free speech? (We are talking about "Occupy Wall Street" after all).

That's the tact I think the lawyers for the protesters would use - and they did find a judge favorable to their position.

But as with all things relating to the 1st Amendment, there are limitations on speech, and this might have crossed the line.

See previous posts about Citizens United.

The more interesting question: We now know when "tent speech" crosses the line. But when does "monied speech" cross the line? Does it ever?

186 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 10:25:45am

re: #40 jaunte

The law forbids the rich as well as the poor from occupying a park with tents and sleeping bags; it also allows the poor, like the rich, free political speech through monetary contributions.

True. The problem is that the poor have less of the second sort of political speech than the rich.

187 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 10:26:28am

re: #43 Gus 802

I'm just glad that I live in a country where the poor have as strong a voice in the political sphere as much as the rich.

//

But does anyone really want millionaires camping out in the park?

188 Gus  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 10:26:58am

re: #187 SanFranciscoZionist

But does anyone really want millionaires camping out in the park?

They own the park.

189 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Tears  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 10:26:59am

re: #187 SanFranciscoZionist

But does anyone really want millionaires camping out in the park?

Isn't that how _The Magic Christian_ ended?

190 jaunte  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 10:27:24am

re: #176 Gus 802

Capitalist production, therefore, develops technology, and the combining together of various processes into a social whole, only by sapping the original sources of all wealth - the soil and the labourer.

We need to update that a little with the addition that the 'soil' is a finite thin shell of a biosphere that all 7 billion of us are stuck in, burning our way through eons of accumulated carbon, and we should probably look at changing some habits before it's too late.
[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

191 Decatur Deb  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 10:27:30am

re: #187 SanFranciscoZionist

But does anyone really want millionaires camping out in the park?

It's OK, if they bring a nice baked brie.

192 Obdicut  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 10:27:37am

re: #187 SanFranciscoZionist

But does anyone really want millionaires camping out in the park?

With their swanky tents, popping krug and sending the manservants out for veal.

193 Killgore Trout  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 10:27:48am

re: #184 blueraven

Yes, some claims of police state and such are over the top. But it does appear that the press was being obstructed in some cases.

My guess is that the press was among the crowds of protesters. Everyone has a camera and pretends to be official press, the cops would have a hell of a time telling protesters and real press apart.

194 Shiplord Kirel  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 10:29:39am

re: #167 Alexzander

Killgore Trout needs some backup on the anti (or skeptical/critical) OWS side of this debate.

LGF really is a bastion of radical leftist ideology these days.
//

Okay, okay. (Shifts to Magickal Balance Fairy mode):

We need General Patton to rise from the dead and clear the park with a whiff of grapeshot. They closed the airspace to protect the hippies, not suppress their lap-dog Islamo-Marxist media. They know our side has a monopoly on dive bombers, and all the gun.....ships.
Typical communard Islamo-Rasta-hippy being arrested.

195 Gus  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 10:29:54am

re: #192 Obdicut

With their swanky tents, popping krug and sending the manservants out for veal.

You said manservants!

Say it again please!

//

196 Alexzander  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 10:29:55am

re: #181 BishopX

link no worky.

I updated/edited it.

197 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 10:30:42am

re: #125 Killgore Trout

Most cities have rules about that. Every couple of years news choppers have mid air collisions trying to get the best angle on a car chase or whatever.

Really? I have never heard of that happening. Bizarre.

198 Killgore Trout  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 10:30:55am

City Files Papers Opposing Bar on Zuccotti Eviction

Deputy Mayor Cas Holloway wrote in the motion that giving the protesters full run of the park would lead to re-creation of the "unsafe and unsanitary conditions and the substantial threat to public safety" that the city said led to the eviction. There was evidence, he wrote, that the protesters were stockpiling weapons.

Mr. Holloway described a "steady accumulation of combustibles, smoking, and other hazards" at the site and said that makeshift weapons, "such as cardboard tubes with metal pipes inside, had been observed among the occupiers' possessions," and that after the Oct. 1 Brooklyn Bridge march, "knives, mace and hypodermic needles were observed discarded on the roadway.

"Thus," he added, "it was our understanding that the protesters may have had a significant number of items that could potentially be used as weapons. He also wrote that there had been 73 misdemeanor and felony complaints and about 50 arrests since the occupation began.

199 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 10:31:14am

re: #176 Gus 802

Capitalist production, therefore, develops technology, and the combining together of various processes into a social whole, only by sapping the original sources of all wealth - the soil and the labourer.

Marx was a bit of a dope. Well, yeah, without surplus value the "capitalist" has no reason to employ the "labourer" in the first place. And without the "capitalist" providing the means for the production (engines, factories, etc.) the labourer would not work that job to begin with, either. "Original sources", my ass. Just take a look at the status of wealth in a society where there's just soil and labourers.

All of his arguments lead to the destruction of property.

200 Alexzander  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 10:31:15am

re: #194 Shiplord Kirel

Okay, okay. (Shifts to Magickal Balance Fairy mode):

Thank you for rising for the occasion!

201 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 10:31:49am

re: #186 SanFranciscoZionist

True. The problem is that the poor have less of the second sort of political speech than the rich.

And the rich have no need for the first.

202 Amory Blaine  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 10:32:01am

re: #197 SanFranciscoZionist

Really? I have never heard of that happening. Bizarre.

They rain down over the interstate all the time.
;)

203 blueraven  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 10:32:12am

re: #193 Killgore Trout

My guess is that the press was among the crowds of protesters. Everyone has a camera and pretends to be official press, the cops would have a hell of a time telling protesters and real press apart.

Would it be too hard to admit that there is wrong doing on both sides?
I will readily concede that some of the protesters and hangers-on have broken the law and acted in bad faith.
At the same time, some city officials and some police officers have been just as guilty of bad judgment and tactics.

204 Killgore Trout  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 10:32:43am

re: #197 SanFranciscoZionist

Really? I have never heard of that happening. Bizarre.

I haven't seen it happen for the past couple of years. I think they started to crackdown after a string of accidents about 4-5 years ago.

205 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 10:32:47am

re: #174 Alexzander

Oakland Mayor Jean Quan Admits Cities Coordinated Crackdown on Occupy Movement

Oh Jean. And after the dove, and everything!

This recall's gonna be a vaudeville routine.

206 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 10:34:11am

re: #192 Obdicut

With their swanky tents, popping krug and sending the manservants out for veal.

OK, this could actually be sort of fun.

207 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 10:34:40am

re: #193 Killgore Trout

My guess is that the press was among the crowds of protesters. Everyone has a camera and pretends to be official press, the cops would have a hell of a time telling protesters and real press apart.

I believe that's why people carry press passes.

208 jaunte  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 10:34:59am

re: #174 Alexzander

Oakland Mayor Jean Quan Admits Cities Coordinated Crackdown on Occupy Movement

Jean Quan: "In New York City, it’s interesting that the Wall Street movement is actually on a private park, so they’re not, again, in the public domain, and they’re not infringing on the public’s right to use a public park."

Interesting!

209 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 10:35:27am

re: #198 Killgore Trout

City Files Papers Opposing Bar on Zuccotti Eviction

Now, someone in Facebook is telling me the campers have a restraining order on the city now, and are returning? Or was that someone's wishful thinking?

210 Killgore Trout  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 10:36:02am

re: #203 blueraven

Would it be too hard to admit that there is wrong doing on both sides?
I will readily concede that some of the protesters and hangers-on have broken the law and acted in bad faith.
At the same time, some city officials and some police officers have been just as guilty of bad judgment and tactics.

Sure, the cities and cops have made all sorts of mistakes and misjudgements. It's far too early to tell about the claims of trying to silence the press. We have reports of arrests of reporters but no context about where and how they were arrested. Were they in an area that the police ordered to be vacated? Were they obeying orders and arrested anyways? It's hard to tell but I'm sure we'll learn more.

211 Amory Blaine  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 10:36:46am

re: #108 Obdicut

What law says that?

I'm pretty sure tort law is a wee bit more complex than that.

It was decided in the landmark Finders Keepers vs. Losers Weepers decision.

212 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 10:36:51am

re: #209 SanFranciscoZionist

They'll be performing citizens' arrests on the police for trying to unlawfully arresting them while the police will try to arrest them for resisting arrest.

Why won't the rich ride in the clown cars like the rest of us?

213 Killgore Trout  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 10:37:59am

re: #209 SanFranciscoZionist

Now, someone in Facebook is telling me the campers have a restraining order on the city now, and are returning? Or was that someone's wishful thinking?

I think the lawyers are having a court battle with competing motions. Some judge ruled earlier that the campers can return but the city is appealing. I think a new judge is looking at it now. The legal stuff is all very confusing.

214 Olsonist  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 10:37:59am

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

215 Robert O.  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 10:38:22am

The problem with these protests is that they started in the WORST POSSIBLE SEASON! Given the attention span of the average American voter, you cannot sustain a movement without momentum. The "Occupy" protests only got started mid-autumn. Soon, it is going to be too cold for anyone to protest, and I predicted earlier this will all fizzle. They blew it. They should have waited for an "American Spring". Then, with the weather warming, the GOP in primary season, the election becoming closer to reality, they'd have all of spring and summer to build a wave of momentum and opposition to what the right-wing is doing to this country. The "Occupy" protests might as well hibernate for a while now with the long drab winter ahead, and come back fresh.

216 Killgore Trout  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 10:39:30am

re: #207 SanFranciscoZionist

I believe that's why people carry press passes.

Which leads me to suspect the reporters who've been arrested were probably among the protesters in areas the police ordered to be cleared.

217 Gus  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 10:41:25am

re: #216 Killgore Trout

Which leads me to suspect the reporters who've been arrested were probably among the protesters in areas the police ordered to be cleared.

Nice. You can now get a job with Fox News.

218 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 10:41:38am

re: #216 Killgore Trout

Which leads me to suspect the reporters who've been arrested were probably among the protesters in areas the police ordered to be cleared.

How would that prevent them from showing their press passes?

219 Killgore Trout  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 10:42:48am

re: #174 Alexzander

Oakland Mayor Jean Quan Admits Cities Coordinated Crackdown on Occupy Movement

Of course local authorities would share information and tactics. They're all dealing with the same problem. Early mistakes in Oakland and New York were educational and were not repeated my cities like Portland. We cleared our park without serious incidents. Hopefully she'll learn and take advice from cities who've done it right.

220 Gus  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 10:43:15am

Those aren't real journalists folks! Remain calm! Those are really protesters posing as journalists. JamieWearingFool's old buddy said so.

222 Killgore Trout  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 10:44:52am

re: #218 SanFranciscoZionist

How would that prevent them from showing their press passes?

Press aren't immune to trespassing laws. If there's an order to leave an area that includes reporters as well. For example, if there was a hostage situation in a bank the police put up tape and order the area cleared. If a reporter tries to enter the bank to get an interview the police can arrest them.

223 Lidane  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 10:46:37am

Ignoring the inevitable OWS flame war that's going on here since I have law class in a few minutes. I just ran across this:

Coburn: End ‘Welfare For The Well-Off’

Sen. Tom Coburn (R-OK) thinks it’s time America’s millionaires pay their fair share.

And in a new report — titled “Subsidizing the Rich and Famous” — Coburn makes an argument for closing loopholes for millionaires. “From tax write-offs for gambling losses, vacation homes, and luxury yachts to subsidies for their ranches and estates, the government is subsidizing the lifestyles of the rich and famous,” Coburn writes in the report. “This welfare for the well-off — costing billions of dollars a year — is being paid for with the taxes of the less fortunate, many who are working two jobs just to make ends meet, and IOUs to be paid off by future generations.”

In total, Coburn’s report claims that millionaires receive $30 billion in benefits from tax giveaways and federal grant programs every year. Almost 1,500 millionaires didn’t pay income tax in 2009, according to the report. The report further breaks down the numbers: $74 million of unemployment checks, $316 million in farm subsidies and $16 million in government-backed loans for college.

So in essence, Coburn is calling for millionaires to receive a little less from the government. If you’re wealthy, and you can afford to pay more for health care as you get older, Coburn argues you should. If you’re a millionaire farmer, you don’t need government farm subsidies. Those farm program payouts, Coburn argues, were intended to encourage low-income farmers, and millionaires don’t need that encouragement.

224 makeitstop  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 10:47:17am

re: #198 Killgore Trout

City Files Papers Opposing Bar on Zuccotti Eviction

"knives, mace and hypodermic needles were observed discarded on the roadway."

That's silly. This is the Brooklyn Bridge you're talking about here.

That lawyer needs to get out more.

225 jaunte  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 10:48:21am

Journalists seek apology from Haslam over reporter's arrest
"Given the circumstances, the troopers did not take Mr. Meador's claim to be a member of the media seriously. Unfortunately, but also somewhat understandably, they did not ask Mr. Meador to produce his press credentials."

226 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 10:49:24am

re: #219 Killgore Trout

Of course local authorities would share information and tactics. They're all dealing with the same problem. Early mistakes in Oakland and New York were educational and were not repeated my cities like Portland. We cleared our park without serious incidents. Hopefully she'll learn and take advice from cities who've done it right.

The problem is that, as with so many other things, there's a different situation on the ground in each area. Exchanging ideas is fine. Trying to coordinate, if that's actually what they were doing, was probably stupid.

227 Gus  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 10:49:46am

The cognitive dissonance is stunning.

Vonnegut was deeply influenced by early Socialist labor leaders, especially Indiana natives Powers Hapgood and Eugene V. Debs, and he frequently quoted them in his work. He named characters after both Debs (Eugene Debs Hartke in Hocus Pocus and Eugene Debs Metzger in Deadeye Dick) and Russian Communist leader Leon Trotsky (Leon Trotsky Trout in Galápagos). He was a lifetime member of the American Civil Liberties Union and was featured in a print advertisement for them...

I trust that some of you will understand what I'm referring to. Unless of course it is yet another stunning claim to being so full of irony.

228 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 10:49:47am

re: #77 Sergey Romanov

I read at kos they threw away ~5000 books in a dumpster.

We have a book hoarding issue at our house, and I ordered Zedushka to clean out the "reading room" (in other households normally called "the bathroom")

He carried the books out to the garage but couldn't bring himself to put them in the trash.

229 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 10:50:55am

re: #222 Killgore Trout

Press aren't immune to trespassing laws. If there's an order to leave an area that includes reporters as well. For example, if there was a hostage situation in a bank the police put up tape and order the area cleared. If a reporter tries to enter the bank to get an interview the police can arrest them.

'Tis true...however, if they identifed themselves as press, and were willing to comply with the standard restrictions, there shouldn't have been a problem. (This wasn't a hostage situation, just crowd control.) I imagine that some conflicting stories will come out in the next few hours.

230 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 10:51:12am

re: #187 SanFranciscoZionist

But does anyone really want millionaires camping out in the park?

They'd have their butlers pitch the tents and prepare their truffles and caviar over a camp stove. It would be jolly fun!

231 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 10:52:22am

re: #228 Alouette

We have a book hoarding issue at our house, and I ordered Zedushka to clean out the "reading room" (in other households normally called "the bathroom")

He carried the books out to the garage but couldn't bring himself to put them in the trash.

Now I know why they call you Vicious Babushka!

#OccupyBathroom! Freedom for Zedushka!

//

232 Gus  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 10:52:32am

@thinkprogress ThinkProgress
Rep. Jerry Nadler (D-NY): "The City's actions to shut down OWS last night raise... serious civil liberties questions" [Link: j.mp...]

233 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 10:53:40am

re: #227 Gus 802

For the rest of us, plz explain;)

234 Gus  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 10:53:53am

@nydailynews New York Daily News
Congressman and State Senator, who represent Lower Manhattan, say raid raises "serious civil liberties questions" [Link: bit.ly...]

235 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 10:54:10am

re: #228 Alouette

We have a book hoarding issue at our house, and I ordered Zedushka to clean out the "reading room" (in other households normally called "the bathroom")

He carried the books out to the garage but couldn't bring himself to put them in the trash.

No, no, the books go to Goodwill, even if it's clear they'll pulp them, because you can't possibly throw OUT a book.

236 Gus  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 10:55:03am

re: #233 Sergey Romanov

For the rest of us, plz explain;)

Theodore Sturgeon

237 Daniel Ballard  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 10:55:19am

re: #152 Gus 802

Issue Date : November 14, 2011 at 1723 UTC
Location : Newark/Cresskill, New Jersey and New York, New York
Beginning Date and Time : November 15, 2011 at 2115 UTC
Ending Date and Time : November 17, 2011 at 0245 UTC
Reason for NOTAM : Temporary flight restrictions for VIP Movement
Type : VIP
Replaced NOTAM(s) : 1/4820: and 1/4821 due to change of location and times of restrictions
Jump To: Affected Areas
Operating Restrictions and Requirements
Other Information

No pilots may operate an aircraft in the areas covered by this NOTAM (except as described).

Except the flight operations listed below:

All IFR arrivals or departures to/from airports within this TFR.

Approved; law enforcement, fire fighting,military aircraft directly supporting the united states secret service (USSS) and the office of the vice president of the united states, and MEDEVAC /air ambulance flights.

Aircraft operations necessitated for safety or emergency reasons.

Aircraft that receive ATC authorization in consultation with the air traffic security coordinator (ATSC) via the domestic events network(DEN).

[Link: tfr.faa.gov...]

VIP movement? I'm sure the Occupy folks will be happy to know they are VIP's. LOL. Well I'm so glad NYC is obeying the law.
///

238 makeitstop  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 10:56:51am

re: #237 Rightwingconspirator

VIP movement? I'm sure the Occupy folks will be happy to know they are VIP's. LOL. Well I'm so glad NYC is obeying the law.
///

Vippies!

239 Gus  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 10:57:01am

@thinkprogress ThinkProgress
UPDATE: Hearing on Zuccotti eviction concludes. Judge promises ruling by 3PM. #ows

240 Kronocide  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 10:59:40am

Oklahoma Sen. Tom Coburn releases report on government subsidies to millionaires

BY CHRIS CASTEEL ccasteel@opubco.com Comment on this article 72
Published: November 15, 2011

WASHINGTON — Subsidies and tax breaks for millionaires cost the U.S. government an average of $30 billion a year, according to a report released Monday by Sen. Tom Coburn, who wants to put new caps on federal benefits.

241 Gus  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 11:00:45am

re: #240 BigPapa

Oklahoma Sen. Tom Coburn releases report on government subsidies to millionaires

Don't worry. We'll get to that once we're finished cleaning up OWS.

//

242 harrylook  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 11:01:54am

re: #94 000G

I don't see why that's even relevant. Citizen's United was about who is a "person" under the First Amendment.

I think most sane people believe OWS has a right to assemble and protest. The issue here is how long NYC is obligated under the First Amendment to allow an occupation of public land. Do you think the answer is forever? I don't. A couple months of 24/7 occupation is more than reasonable.

243 Varek Raith  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 11:01:59am

Destruction of private property is A OK if the cops do it.
;)
/

244 Kronocide  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 11:02:21am

I'm so shocked it's Coburn, a GOP'er.

245 Varek Raith  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 11:03:18am

re: #244 BigPapa

I'm so shocked it's Coburn, a GOP'er.

Yeah, uh, technical malfunction. I'll fix it in a bit.
Damn positronic brains.

246 McSpiff  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 11:03:54am

re: #243 Varek Raith

Destruction of private property is A OK if the cops do it.
;)
/

I'm hoping any injunction would cover the cops not destroying any more of the property they've seized.

247 Gus  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 11:03:55am

re: #244 BigPapa

I'm so shocked it's Coburn, a GOP'er.

Must be a lot of Democrats on that list.

248 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 11:04:21am

OWLS!

Youtube Video
250 Gus  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 11:04:49am

Media Pushed Back from Occupy Wall Street Raid

Several members of the media reported being blocked from covering the Occupy Wall Street raid overnight, with police pushing them back from the action and preventing reporting and photographing.

And on Tuesday, several more journalists were detained by police, including AP writer Karen Matthews, AP photographer Seth Wenig and Daily News reporter Matthew Lysiak, the AP said.

At one point during the overnight raid, journalists who identified themselves as working for the New York Post and New York Daily News were pushed back by police in riot gear, along with NBC New York's Chris Glorioso...

251 Varek Raith  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 11:05:48am

re: #250 Gus 802

Media Pushed Back from Occupy Wall Street Raid

Can't have them filming the cops trashing the place now can we???

252 zora  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 11:06:24am

re: #216 Killgore Trout

Which leads me to suspect the reporters who've been arrested were probably among the protesters in areas the police ordered to be cleared.

it appears that your buckification is complete. how has this happened? i'm concerned.

253 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 11:06:25am

re: #235 SanFranciscoZionist

No, no, the books go to Goodwill, even if it's clear they'll pulp them, because you can't possibly throw OUT a book.

Last week I threw out a whole bunch of Windows NT, Flash MX, RBase and Minitab manuals.

Because some books really are worthless.

254 Gus  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 11:07:06am

re: #251 Varek Raith

Can't have them filming the cops trashing the place now can we???

Youtube Video
255 jaunte  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 11:07:28am

re: #250 Gus 802

No photos, and no one gets hurt.

Mother Jones reporter Josh Harkinson tweeted that police "violently shoved me away" as he tried to take a photo of a man on a stretcher.
...
Mayor Bloomberg said at a City Hall briefing Tuesday that the NYPD "routinely keeps members of the press off to the side" and did so in this case to protect journalists from getting hurt.

256 Varek Raith  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 11:07:29am

re: #253 Alouette

Last week I threw out a whole bunch of Windows NT, Flash MX, RBase and Minitab manuals.

Because some books really are worthless.

NO!!!
Those could've gone to a museum of ancient artifacts!
;)

257 makeitstop  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 11:07:32am

re: #244 BigPapa

I'm so shocked it's Coburn, a GOP'er.

Meh. A few phone calls from some of his donors will fix that problem.

You have meddled with the primal forces of nature, Senator Coburn! And I won't have it! Is that clear?

258 lawhawk  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 11:08:13am

Judge Billings was picked by the OWS protest lawyers because she was likely to give the TRO and favorable to their position (they first contacted her, and then the court said that once she was involved, she should hear the first motion - granting the TRO in the process. A new judge will hear the motion on the TRO - chosen at random by the court computer system.

259 Killgore Trout  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 11:08:27am

re: #226 SanFranciscoZionist

The problem is that, as with so many other things, there's a different situation on the ground in each area. Exchanging ideas is fine. Trying to coordinate, if that's actually what they were doing, was probably stupid.

I don't think there was a nation wide conspiracy to shut down OWS. If you pay close attention she says she talked with other cities about how they're dealing with the problems. The linked article is just a creative interpretation.

260 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 11:11:10am

re: #242 harrylook

I don't see why that's even relevant. Citizen's United was about who is a "person" under the First Amendment.

Yes. And that there shall be no restrictions on their monied free speech. Do you think that there is or should be a reasonable limit to free speech in the form of money or campaign contributions?

261 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 11:11:27am

re: #253 Alouette

Last week I threw out a whole bunch of Windows NT, Flash MX, RBase and Minitab manuals.

Because some books really are worthless.

Well, those are OK.

262 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Tears  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 11:11:35am

re: #245 Varek Raith

Yeah, uh, technical malfunction. I'll fix it in a bit.
Damn positronic brains.

A couple of bogons must have slipped past quality control.

263 Varek Raith  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 11:12:06am

re: #262 oaktree

A couple of bogons must have slipped past quality control.

Damn elves.

264 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 11:12:22am

re: #259 Killgore Trout

I don't think there was a nation wide conspiracy to shut down OWS. If you pay close attention she says she talked with other cities about how they're dealing with the problems. The linked article is just a creative interpretation.

Anyway, in Quan's case it hasn't worked twice. Two evictions, and the party goes on. For everyone who wasn't hospitalized.

265 Varek Raith  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 11:13:33am

This whole thing is completely ass backwards.
They should be raiding the financial industry HQs.

266 Gus  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 11:13:59am

re: #265 Varek Raith

This whole thing is completely ass backwards.
They should be raiding the financial industry HQs.

But. But. That's radical!

268 Killgore Trout  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 11:14:25am

re: #264 SanFranciscoZionist

Anyway, in Quan's case it hasn't worked twice. Two evictions, and the party goes on. For everyone who wasn't hospitalized.

She made a mess of the Oakland protests and she's probably not done yet.

269 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 11:14:25am

re: #265 Varek Raith

This whole thing is completely ass backwards.
They should be raiding the financial industry HQs.

And putting money in the dumpsters.

//

270 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Tears  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 11:14:37am

re: #265 Varek Raith

This whole thing is completely ass backwards.
They should be raiding the financial industry HQs.

It's like invading Iraq vs N Korea. One will be capable of a much more violent response.
// (yes, over-the-top it is!)

271 harrylook  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 11:15:28am

re: #260 000G

Yes. And that there shall be no restrictions on their monied free speech. Do you think that there is or should be a reasonable limit to free speech in the form of money or campaign contributions?

Citizen's United was about buying space on the TV to run political ads. OWS can do that all they want (and I'm sure $$ wouldn't be an issue). The 2 cases aren't related - attempting to connect them gets us nowhere.

Why don't you answer my question: how long is NYC obligated to let OWS occupy a public space?

272 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 11:15:40am

re: #268 Killgore Trout

She made a mess of the Oakland protests and she's probably not done yet.

Reminds me of Will Cuppy's description of Montezuma and Cortes. "First he sent him some feather embroidery and told him to go away. And then he sent him some feather embroidery and told him to come on in."

273 Gus  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 11:15:40am

Incoming! On the wingnut diet scale...

274 Killgore Trout  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 11:15:46am

[Link: cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com...]

One protester approached the barricades at 1:40 p.m., unaware that all the camp's contents had been removed.

"You took my home," the man shouted, before likening the city's maneuver to the removal of Native Americans in the pre-colonial era.

"Did you know we killed the Indian people?" one officer asked another, smiling.

"You learn a lot here," his colleague said."

275 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Tears  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 11:15:55am

re: #267 Gus 802

As Cities Crack Down, Lansing Distinguishes Itself By Respecting Occupy Lansing

I guess they have realized that General Winter is on their side?

276 Gus  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 11:16:15am

@thinkprogress ThinkProgress
House GOP decrees that pizza is a vegetable [Link: thkpr.gs...]

277 Interesting Times  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 11:16:18am

re: #270 oaktree

It's like invading Iraq vs N Korea. One will be capable of a much more violent response.

"Nice little 401k you got there...be a shame if anything happened to it."

278 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 11:16:20am

re: #265 Varek Raith

This whole thing is completely ass backwards.
They should be raiding the financial industry HQs.

Youtube Video
279 harrylook  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 11:17:17am

re: #115 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

i sure hope you're not the type who complains about "pc".

It has nothing on the Bloomberg administration.

PC, meaning 'political correctness'?

I didn't mean to defend the Bloomberg administration globally, or even completely on this eviction issue. Eg., the news about the press block-out is revolting. Another eg., cops roughing up people for no good reason. But, OWS has to end sometime, right?

280 Varek Raith  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 11:17:53am

The ability to destroy the financial sector of the US and perhaps the world is insignificant next to the power of imaginary marxist hippies.

281 Gus  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 11:17:57am

re: #276 Gus 802

@thinkprogress ThinkProgress
House GOP decrees that pizza is a vegetable [Link: thkpr.gs...]

The spending bill also would allow tomato paste on pizzas to be counted as a vegetable, as it is now. The department's proposed guidelines would have attempted to prevent that.

No wait... It's already counted as a vegetable?

282 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 11:18:02am

re: #271 harrylook

Citizen's United was about buying space on the TV to run political ads. OWS can do that all they want (and I'm sure $$ wouldn't be an issue). The 2 cases aren't related - attempting to connect them gets us nowhere.

The cases are very much related: [Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

So you don't think that there should be any restrictions on monied free speech. Okay then. Don't see why the same shouldn't apply for tent speech.

283 bratwurst  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 11:18:34am

re: #276 Gus 802

@thinkprogress ThinkProgress
House GOP decrees that pizza is a vegetable [Link: thkpr.gs...]

More utter bullshit. What percentage of the population is going to have to be diabetic before we take the obesity situation here as seriously as smoking?

284 Gus  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 11:18:37am

WTF? It's a country of dumb rednecks.

285 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 11:18:38am

re: #274 Killgore Trout

"Did you know we killed the Indian people?" one officer asked another, smiling.

What a ... upstanding citizen.

286 William Barnett-Lewis  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 11:18:49am

re: #271 harrylook

Citizen's United was about buying space on the TV to run political ads. OWS can do that all they want (and I'm sure $$ wouldn't be an issue). The 2 cases aren't related - attempting to connect them gets us nowhere.

Why don't you answer my question: how long is NYC obligated to let OWS occupy a public space?

Let me rephrase it for you: How long are American citizens obligated to let the Corporations and other Faux but rich "Persons" occupy the public airwaves?

287 harrylook  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 11:18:50am

re: #282 000G

The cases are very much related: [Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

So you don't think that there should be any restrictions on monied free speech. Okay then.

I didn't say that. I can see you don't want to have a meaningful discussion.

288 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 11:19:03am

re: #281 Gus 802

The spending bill also would allow tomato paste on pizzas to be counted as a vegetable, as it is now. The department's proposed guidelines would have attempted to prevent that.

No wait... It's already counted as a vegetable?

Well it's not a mineral.

Maybe they should make different levels of vegetables. Okay, and Better.

Although, frankly, as a mother, they'll eat the tomato paste on pizza and spaghetti faster than they'll eat the green beans.

289 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Tears  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 11:19:04am

re: #279 harrylook

PC, meaning 'political correctness'?

I didn't mean to defend the Bloomberg administration globally, or even completely on this eviction issue. Eg., the news about the press block-out is revolting. Another eg., cops roughing up people for no good reason. But, OWS has to end sometime, right?

Arguably letting it wither away to less media coverage and tiresomeness amidst winter weather would have been a valid strategy.

290 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Tears  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 11:19:33am

re: #280 Varek Raith

The ability to destroy the financial sector of the US and perhaps the world is insignificant next to the power of imaginary marxist hippies.

So, you think the Force is with them do you? They're only rebel scum!
/

291 William Barnett-Lewis  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 11:19:58am

re: #279 harrylook

PC, meaning 'political correctness'?

I didn't mean to defend the Bloomberg administration globally, or even completely on this eviction issue. Eg., the news about the press block-out is revolting. Another eg., cops roughing up people for no good reason. But, OWS has to end sometime, right?

Why?

292 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 11:20:07am

re: #281 Gus 802

The spending bill also would allow tomato paste on pizzas to be counted as a vegetable, as it is now. The department's proposed guidelines would have attempted to prevent that.

No wait... It's already counted as a vegetable?

Probably connected to the infamous ketchup decision.

293 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 11:20:12am

re: #287 harrylook

I didn't say that. I can see you don't want to have a meaningful discussion.

I do, but you keep dodging the question about reasonable restrictions to monied free speech while insisting on reasonable restrictions to tent speech. Which was the substance of your original objection.

294 Varek Raith  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 11:20:18am

re: #281 Gus 802

The spending bill also would allow tomato paste on pizzas to be counted as a vegetable, as it is now. The department's proposed guidelines would have attempted to prevent that.

No wait... It's already counted as a vegetable?

The GOP's been doing that lately.
Reaffirming and rereaffirming things that are already affirmed. For example, they're quadruple banned federal money paying for abortions.
Makes em look like they are working.

295 harrylook  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 11:20:36am

re: #289 oaktree

Arguably letting it wither away to less media coverage and tiresomeness amidst winter weather would have been a valid strategy.

You are probably right. That is what I think they will do here in Boston. Just b/c one has the right to do something, doesn't mean they should always exercise the right. A lesson perhaps for both sides of the issue.

296 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Tears  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 11:20:51am

re: #288 EmmmieG

Well it's not a mineral.

Maybe they should make different levels of vegetables. Okay, and Better.

Although, frankly, as a mother, they'll eat the tomato paste on pizza and spaghetti faster than they'll eat the green beans.

Is that sort of like disguising broccoli using cheese sauce?

297 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 11:21:27am

re: #279 harrylook

But, OWS has to end sometime, right?

It will end when the issues that spawned it are adressed. Until then, the only open question of relevance is how it's going to continue.

298 albusteve  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 11:21:45am

re: #294 Varek Raith

The GOP's been doing that lately.
Reaffirming and rereaffirming things that are already affirmed. For example, they're quadruple banned federal money paying for abortions.
Makes em look like they are working.

wax on
wax off

299 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 11:22:20am

re: #296 oaktree

Is that sort of like disguising broccoli using cheese sauce?

Actually with broccoli you disguise it as "little trees you can eat!"

If that doesn't work, you disguise it as "eat this or no dessert."

Yes, I know they say not to do that. If they aren't going to come help make the 6 year old eat, they can be quiet.

300 Varek Raith  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 11:23:25am

re: #298 albusteve

wax on
wax off

How ya been?

301 Alexzander  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 11:23:31am

re: #252 zora

it appears that your buckification is complete. how has this happened? i'm concerned.

It is kind of like how the Matrix must produce an Agent Smith to balance with Neo. Or as the Joker said to Batman: "You Complete me."
There will always be one.

302 Alexzander  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 11:24:06am

re: #299 EmmmieG

Actually with broccoli you disguise it as "little trees you can eat!"

If that doesn't work, you disguise it as "eat this or no dessert."

Yes, I know they say not to do that. If they aren't going to come help make the 6 year old eat, they can be quiet.

I got the "little trees you can eat" disguise quite a bit as a child.

303 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Tears  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 11:24:46am

re: #299 EmmmieG

Actually with broccoli you disguise it as "little trees you can eat!"

If that doesn't work, you disguise it as "eat this or no dessert."

Yes, I know they say not to do that. If they aren't going to come help make the 6 year old eat, they can be quiet.

My mother's pet one was the "'no thank you' helping" which was about 2 tbsp. (3-4 bites for a child). We could generally be cajoled into consuming that much of a disliked vegetable or other dish.

I've since introduced the concept to the families of at least two friends.

304 Varek Raith  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 11:24:51am

re: #299 EmmmieG

Actually with broccoli you disguise it as "little trees you can eat!"

If that doesn't work, you disguise it as "eat this or no dessert."

Yes, I know they say not to do that. If they aren't going to come help make the 6 year old eat, they can be quiet.

Put hot sauce on it.
Problem solved.

306 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Tears  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 11:26:12am

re: #304 Varek Raith

Put hot sauce on it.
Problem solved.

I think for the older generation the universal food disguise agent was Heinz Ketchup.

307 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 11:26:25am

re: #285 Sergey Romanov

What a ... upstanding citizen.

What actually crossed my mind was to wonder if the officer, or his partner, was Indian.

I'm generally not all that sympathetic to the protest approach of 'scream about historical awfulness at the cops to make them the bad guys'. I've seen people do it a lot, and it's not especially charming.

308 lawhawk  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 11:26:37am

Justice Michael Stallman is expected to issue his decision around 3 p.m on the TRO issued earlier this morning.

309 albusteve  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 11:26:41am

re: #300 Varek Raith

How ya been?

sore...a bad week for my leg that is no longer there

310 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Tears  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 11:26:49am

re: #305 Alexzander

New York City Council Member Hit And Arrested During Police Raid At Zuccotti Park

How are they identified? A tattoo on the back of the neck?

311 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 11:28:15am

re: #310 oaktree

How are they identified? A tattoo on the back of the neck?

Somebody call the City Council Police!!

312 Varek Raith  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 11:28:19am

re: #310 oaktree

How are they identified? A tattoo on the back of the neck?

Subdermal transmitters.

313 lawhawk  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 11:28:24am

More details about various local politicians and their positions on OWS and the clearing of Zuccotti Park.

Congressman Jerrold Nadler and State Senator Daniel Squadron, who represent Lower Manhattan, also issued a joint statement:

We have also been urging the City to have a zero tolerance policy on noise and sanitation violations, and to make the results of its enforcement public. But we must balance the core First Amendment rights of protesters and the other legitimate issues that have been raised.

The City’s actions to shut down OWS last night raise a number of serious civil liberties questions that must be answered. Moving forward, how will the City respect the protesters’ rights to speech and assembly? Why was press access limited, and why were some reporters’ credentials confiscated? How will reported incidents of excessive force used by the police be addressed?

“On the issue of Brookfield’s rules, we are very concerned that they were promulgated after the protesters arrived; the specific legal questions on this topic are being addressed where it is appropriate - in the courts. Whatever the courts rule, the City’s actions here must not be a backdoor means of ending the free exercise of protesters’ rights.

314 Killgore Trout  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 11:28:26am

re: #307 SanFranciscoZionist

What actually crossed my mind was to wonder if the officer, or his partner, was Indian.

I'm generally not all that sympathetic to the protest approach of 'scream about historical awfulness at the cops to make them the bad guys'. I've seen people do it a lot, and it's not especially charming.

I hadn't considered the possibility people were going to twist that to claim the cops were insensitive to genocide. I thought it was pretty obvious they just got a chuckle out of the absurd accusation.

315 Varek Raith  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 11:29:02am

re: #309 albusteve

sore...a bad week for my leg that is no longer there

Ah, that sucks.
Any progress on the prosthetic?

316 Interesting Times  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 11:29:24am

re: #302 Alexzander

I got the "little trees you can eat" disguise quite a bit as a child.

Image: broccoli-walnut-tree.jpg

317 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 11:31:10am

re: #314 Killgore Trout

I hadn't considered the possibility people were going to twist that to claim the cops were insensitive to genocide. I thought it was pretty obvious they just got a chuckle out of the absurd accusation.

Sure, everything you don't approve of is necessarily "twisted". People only act with worst intentions in your world, it seems. Whateva.

318 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Tears  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 11:31:25am
MSNBC Video
319 BishopX  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 11:31:34am

re: #299 EmmmieG

A little lemon juice on lightly steamed broccoli goes a long way towards making it delicious. That's how I got my girlfriend to reconsider her hatred of broccoli.

320 albusteve  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 11:32:52am

re: #315 Varek Raith

Ah, that sucks.
Any progress on the prosthetic?

yes, but it's slow...I'm pretty burned out with the whole deal, but I'm getting in a lot of gym time....it's addicting

321 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Tears  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 11:32:54am

re: #319 BishopX

A little lemon juice on lightly steamed broccoli goes a long way towards making it delicious. That's how I got my girlfriend to reconsider her hatred of broccoli.

That's how I prefer to eat brussels sprouts.

322 harrylook  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 11:33:01am

re: #293 000G

I do, but you keep dodging the question about reasonable restrictions to monied free speech while insisting on reasonable restrictions to tent speech. Which was the substance of your original objection.

A reasonable restriction on speech on TV might not be a reasonable restriction on speech in a public space, and vice versa. For example, OWS has the right to protect in the park for some period of time (I say a couple months is enough). However, they have no right to have their protest in the middle of the Holland Tunnel for any period of time. Those considerations have no bearing on TV. On the street, maybe I can yell, "Fuck Wall Street!" all day. But I won't get an ad like that on TV.

More specifically, on your point about OWS, I'm not worried about rich "peoples'" speech. I'm worried about their influence on Congress. As I age, I am more and more in favor of term limits and stricter conflict of interest rules for congressmen. I think that's a better solution than restricting speech.

323 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 11:33:46am

re: #319 BishopX

A little lemon juice on lightly steamed broccoli goes a long way towards making it delicious. That's how I got my girlfriend to reconsider her hatred of broccoli.

The problem with broccoli in our house is not my children.

Ahem.

And it's not me.

You do the math.

324 Gus  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 11:33:58am

re: #317 Sergey Romanov

Sure, everything you don't approve of is necessarily "twisted". People only act with worst intentions in your world, it seems. Whateva.

Yeah. And as we all know, the NYPD is well known for their racial sensitivity.

325 Varek Raith  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 11:34:03am

re: #323 EmmmieG

The problem with broccoli in our house is not my children.

Ahem.

And it's not me.

You do the math.

Lol.

326 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 11:34:43am

re: #319 BishopX

A little lemon juice on lightly steamed broccoli goes a long way towards making it delicious. That's how I got my girlfriend to reconsider her hatred of broccoli.

Some people are very sensitive to the bitterness of broccoli and such. It's apparently actually got something to do with how your taste buds are set up.

327 Olsonist  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 11:34:58am

re: #320 albusteve

yes, but it's slow...I'm pretty burned out with the whole deal, but I'm getting in a lot of gym time...it's addicting

When I lived in San Francisco, I started taking aerobics classes. Then I figured out that a lot of the step teachers were strippers. Then I started taking a lot more step classes. It was rather addictive.

328 Varek Raith  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 11:35:19am

re: #317 Sergey Romanov

Sure, everything you don't approve of is necessarily "twisted". People only act with worst intentions in your world, it seems. Whateva.

Everyone has a berserk button, OWS and/or hippies are KTs.

329 Gus  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 11:36:17am

@thinkprogress ThinkProgress
Statement by 11 NYC council members: "We condemn the violation of the 1st Amendment rights of the protesters" [Link: thkpr.gs...] #ows

But don't take their word for it! They're all part of the Marxist-Hippie-Rapey-Staby collective!

330 BishopX  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 11:36:41am

re: #321 oaktree

Hmm, never tried that. I usually roast them with butter.

331 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 11:37:39am

re: #328 Varek Raith

Everyone has a berserk button, OWS and/or hippies are KTs.

Well, joking and smiling about mass murder of Indians sure pressed my button.

332 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 11:37:54am

re: #322 harrylook

A reasonable restriction on speech on TV might not be a reasonable restriction on speech in a public space, and vice versa.

You fail to adress my question: Should there be a reasonable restriction on monied free speech (not just for "purchasing TV ads") and if so, what should it be? Are you in favor of corporate personhood in this context?

333 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 11:38:50am

re: #330 BishopX

Hmm, never tried that. I usually roast them with butter.

I prefer brussels sprouts on my sister's plate. It's a good spot for them.

334 Varek Raith  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 11:39:20am

re: #331 Sergey Romanov

Well, joking and smiling about mass murder of Indians sure pressed my button.

Oy, I've been scrolling just about all mentions of OWS.

335 Gus  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 11:39:28am

You know something smells funny when someone with -720 Karma is updinging you know who.

336 albusteve  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 11:39:55am

re: #327 Olsonist

When I lived in San Francisco, I started taking aerobics classes. Then I figured out that a lot of the step teachers were strippers. Then I started taking a lot more step classes. It was rather addictive.

lol...once a week I have an appointment with my physical therapist and she is an absolute doll...sometimes I get these urges

337 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 11:40:05am

re: #334 Varek Raith

Oy, I've been scrolling just about all mentions of OWS.

Light reading lately, then.

338 McSpiff  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 11:40:29am

re: #331 Sergey Romanov

Well, joking and smiling about mass murder of Indians sure pressed my button.

People can find humor in absurd statements. Comparing OWS evictions to the Trail of Tears qualifies in my mind. I'd probably laugh if it was said to me.

339 Varek Raith  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 11:41:08am

re: #337 Sergey Romanov

Light reading lately, then.

Yeah, it's to the point where I just don't care. I know where most of LGF stands, so I don't care for the fighting anymore.

340 Gus  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 11:42:04am

re: #337 Sergey Romanov

Light reading lately, then.

I'm reading like Herman Cain paying attention at a national security briefing.

//

341 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 11:42:19am

re: #299 EmmmieG

Actually with broccoli you disguise it as "little trees you can eat!"

If that doesn't work, you disguise it as "eat this or no dessert."

Yes, I know they say not to do that. If they aren't going to come help make the 6 year old eat, they can be quiet.

I got my kids to eat broccoli and cauliflower when I served it to them...raw.

It turned out they didn't like the smell of cooked cruciferous vegetables, but loved it raw with yogurt dip.

342 Varek Raith  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 11:42:34am

re: #340 Gus 802

I'm reading like Herman Cain paying attention at a national security briefing.

//

Uzbeckibeckibeckistanstan haz a sad.

343 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Tears  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 11:42:35am

re: #333 EmmmieG

I prefer brussels sprouts on my sister's plate. It's a good spot for them.

If she likes them it sounds like a win-win. We had enough variety in preferred tastes in our family to handle that. I liked carrots and my brother didn't, no one but my parents liked asparagus, etc.

There's also the fact that people's palates adjust as they age. I disliked the periodic serving of beef stroganof as a child. Now appreciate the dish quite a bit. (Though partially it is due to the fact that my mother did not fix it very well - toughly cooked beef. Which was either quality of the cut or how it was prepared. Yes, sacrilege - I've publically panned my mother's cooking.)

344 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 11:42:46am

re: #338 McSpiff

People can find humor in absurd statements. Comparing OWS evictions to the Trail of Tears qualifies in my mind. I'd probably laugh if it was said to me.

"Ha ha ha ha ha, you know, ha, we actually killed Indians, ha ha ha ha ha ha".

345 harrylook  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 11:42:57am

re: #332 000G

You fail to adress my question: Should there be a reasonable restriction on monied free speech (not just for "purchasing TV ads") and if so, what should it be? Are you in favor of corporate personhood on this context?

A corporation, a partnership, etc. - they are associations of people. I think they have First Amendment rights. If OWS incorporates and wants to run political ads, I don't think there is any good reason to restrict OWS, Inc.'s speech on TV beyond the normal restrictions about decency, etc. I don't know what you mean by "monied" speech, but I don't think you should be restricted more in your speech because you are richer than others. As for TV ads, what is the need to restrict them? There are many legal reasons why the gov't might want to restrict the time period of a protest in a public space. That's why they are different cases to me.

346 Obdicut  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 11:43:06am

re: #341 Alouette

That's the only way I like 'em, too.

Or in Pad Thai, because Pad Thai just tastes like Pad Thai sauce.

347 Talking Point Detective  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 11:43:24am

For anyone who's interested in forming conclusions based on a wide range of reports, rather than facile conclusions based on guilt by association and inaccurate generalizations;

Good interview with Rolling Stone reporter that was on the scene:

[Link: hereandnow.wbur.org...]

Interview picks up at around six minutes.

An article written by the same reporter:

[Link: www.rollingstone.com...]

348 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Tears  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 11:43:30am

re: #342 Varek Raith

Uzbeckibeckibeckistanstan haz a sad.

Shortage of chalk boards?
/

349 iossarian  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 11:43:58am

re: #344 Sergey Romanov

"Ha ha ha ha ha, you know, ha, we actually killed Indians, ha ha ha ha ha ha".

Hee hee, we're just beating up the protestors and smashing their stuff.

Hoo.

350 Gus  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 11:44:06am

re: #338 McSpiff

People can find humor in absurd statements. Comparing OWS evictions to the Trail of Tears qualifies in my mind. I'd probably laugh if it was said to me.

No. If you said that to an American Indian. Well. You better cover your face.

351 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 11:44:52am

re: #339 Varek Raith

Yeah, it's to the point where I just don't care. I know where most of LGF stands, so I don't care for the fighting anymore.

Serious question--where DOES most of LGF stand? Or do you just mean 'individual persons'?

352 Gus  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 11:45:26am

OK. Back-up. Something got a little mixed up there.

353 makeitstop  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 11:45:38am

re: #322 harrylook

More specifically, on your point about OWS, I'm not worried about rich "peoples'" speech. I'm worried about their influence on Congress. As I age, I am more and more in favor of term limits and stricter conflict of interest rules for congressmen. I think that's a better solution than restricting speech.

Not too easily separated.

If 'rich people' (let's use the Koch Brothers as an example) decide to exercise their 'speech' rights by dumping 5 or 10 million into close Senate elections, their 'speech' and their 'influence on Congress' become one and the same thanks to Citizens United.

How does OWS compete with that?

354 McSpiff  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 11:45:41am

re: #350 Gus 802

No. If you said that to an American Indian. Well. You better cover your face.

If an American Indian compared OWS evictions to the Trail of Tears I'd probably still point out it was absurd, although I may not laugh out of sensitivity. I had no problem pointing out to Jewish schoolmates that no, Bush was not Hitler's equal. I see no difference.

355 albusteve  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 11:45:48am

re: #351 SanFranciscoZionist

Serious question--where DOES most of LGF stand? Or do you just mean 'individual persons'?

I stand aside....I'm a very weak opponent

356 Varek Raith  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 11:46:15am

re: #351 SanFranciscoZionist

Serious question--where DOES most of LGF stand? Or do you just mean 'individual persons'?

I mean those most involved.
I like KT, I just don't like him on OWS.
:)

357 Gus  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 11:46:18am

re: #354 McSpiff

If an American Indian compared OWS evictions to the Trail of Tears I'd probably still point out it was absurd, although I may not laugh out of sensitivity. I had no problem pointing out to Jewish schoolmates that no, Bush was not Hitler's equal. I see no difference.

See 352.

358 Talking Point Detective  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 11:46:24am

re: #347 Talking Point Detective

Not that I was thinking of anyone in particular here at LGF wrt facile conclusions, guilt by association, etc., of course. No one here would fit that description. No one here would do that.

Right?

359 McSpiff  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 11:47:09am

re: #344 Sergey Romanov

"Ha ha ha ha ha, you know, ha, we actually killed Indians, ha ha ha ha ha ha".

I think the 'we' the cop was referring to was himself and his buddy. I'm assuming they personally had not killed any native Americans. That's a whole 'nother issue if they have,

360 jaunte  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 11:47:12am

I'm in favor of both broccoli and brussels sprouts.

361 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 11:47:22am

re: #351 SanFranciscoZionist

There was some poll, but not sure how the results would be distributed today. Somebody needs to do a series of new polls without leading questions and with unambiguous formulations (so, "do you support the aims of OWS" is ambiguous by itself).

362 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 11:47:29am

re: #345 harrylook

I don't think you should be restricted more in your speech because you are richer than others.

Should the reverse be true then as well? Should you be restricted more in your speech because you are poorer than others?

363 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 11:47:40am

re: #354 McSpiff

If an American Indian compared OWS evictions to the Trail of Tears I'd probably still point out it was absurd, although I may not laugh out of sensitivity. I had no problem pointing out to Jewish schoolmates that no, Bush was not Hitler's equal. I see no difference.

Not everything bad is genocide.

Comparing everything bad to genocide is stupid, self-dramatizing, and diminishes the memory of actual genocide.

364 McSpiff  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 11:47:40am

re: #357 Gus 802

See 352.

Agreed. No harm, no foul.

365 Kragar  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 11:48:27am

re: #351 SanFranciscoZionist

Serious question--where DOES most of LGF stand? Or do you just mean 'individual persons'?

Well, I usually am sitting while at LGF.

366 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 11:48:36am

re: #363 SanFranciscoZionist

Not everything bad is genocide.

Comparing everything bad to genocide is stupid, self-dramatizing, and diminishes the memory of actual genocide.

One of my sons keeps telling me that kicking him off the computer until he practices trumpet and does his homework is "blackmail."

I keep explaining what blackmail is to no avail. He just likes the term.

367 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Tears  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 11:48:36am

I stand by my unstated claim in comment #318 that the events in that link have nothing to do with OWS - at any location.

368 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 11:48:58am

Remember when Bush hated on Broccoli?

369 RadicalModerate  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 11:48:59am

In the area of protests, it appears that there's going to be a significant one of the online variety tomorrow.

Congressional hearings start tomorrow regarding H.R.3261 aka the "Stop Online Piracy Act" (and also known as the "Jail Justin Bieber Act"). This is the latest bill that the major music and film distributors are pushing to stop streaming of any copyrighted work, even if it is singing a cover version of a song on YouTube. Also, it will permit DNS blocking of sites that are considered infringing, without any due process whatsoever.
In response, several websites, from all sides of the political spectrum are lining up in protest tomorrow, declaring November 16 "American Censorship Day".

[Link: americancensorship.org...]

370 Varek Raith  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 11:49:05am

re: #360 jaunte

I'm in favor of both broccoli and brussels sprouts.

Now that's just wrong.

371 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 11:49:09am

re: #358 Talking Point Detective

Not that I was thinking of anyone in particular here at LGF wrt facile conclusions, guilt by association, etc., of course. No one here would fit that description. No one here would do that.

Right?

No one here is passive-aggressive, either.

372 jaunte  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 11:49:24am

re: #370 Varek Raith

And butter.

373 Gus  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 11:49:34am

In any event. We can expect strong comparisons.

@thinkprogress ThinkProgress
Manhattan Borough President: "Zuccotti Park is not Tiananmen Square. I call for a full explanation of police behavior in this evacuation."

374 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 11:50:09am

re: #368 000G

Remember when Bush hated on Broccoli?

That was the Elder Bush.

375 McSpiff  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 11:50:23am

re: #373 Gus 802

In any event. We can expect strong comparisons.

@thinkprogress ThinkProgress
Manhattan Borough President: "Zuccotti Park is not Tiananmen Square. I call for a full explanation of police behavior in this evacuation."

No, it certainly isn't Tiananmen square.

376 harrylook  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 11:50:27am

re: #353 makeitstop

Not too easily separated.

If 'rich people' (let's use the Koch Brothers as an example) decide to exercise their 'speech' rights by dumping 5 or 10 million into close Senate elections, their 'speech' and their 'influence on Congress' become one and the same thanks to Citizens United.

How does OWS compete with that?

Well, as I understand the case, it was about these PAC's - giving money to those groups to run ads. I don't see a need to restrict that for anyone. Contributions directly to elected officials is a much more complicated issue. Influence is clearly bought every day in DC, despite the current restrictions on direct contributions. My solution for that is term limits and other rules restricting the actions of elected officials. Restricting speech should always be a last resort.

377 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 11:50:40am

re: #366 EmmmieG

One of my sons keeps telling me that kicking him off the computer until he practices trumpet and does his homework is "blackmail."

I keep explaining what blackmail is to no avail. He just likes the term.

Some of my high school kids used to complain that when the classroom got warm, it was 'like a slave ship'. They stopped doing that, after several energetic lectures on the Middle Passage.

378 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 11:51:22am

re: #368 000G

Remember when Bush hated on Broccoli?

Bush Sr.

He got in some trouble over that, but I feel that once you're president you're allowed to pick a food you don't like, and not eat it.

379 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 11:51:30am

re: #351 SanFranciscoZionist

Serious question--where DOES most of LGF stand?

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

380 Talking Point Detective  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 11:51:30am

re: #371 SanFranciscoZionist

No one here is passive-aggressive, either.

Passive-agressive?

I'd say that was a pretty overt shot, although in a sardonic tone. Not much passive about it - and completely consistent with my prior posts on the topic.

381 Varek Raith  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 11:52:11am

re: #378 SanFranciscoZionist

Bush Sr.

He got in some trouble over that, but I feel that once you're president you're allowed to pick a food you don't like, and not eat it.

Damn right!

*Calls in B-52 strikes on all broccoli farms*

382 Gus  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 11:52:15am

It's always good policy to avoid historical comparisons.

383 Killgore Trout  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 11:52:42am

re: #373 Gus 802

Manhattan Borough President: "Zuccotti Park is not Tiananmen Square. I call for a full explanation of police behavior in this evacuation."

I think those who are mystified by the police clearing the park are probably going to remain confused. The latest court filing cited sanitation, safety, fire hazard, public nuisance and that the protesters were stockpiling weapons. Most of this has been known for quite some time.

384 jaunte  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 11:52:46am

re: #379 000G

RWC had a good comment on that thread:
[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

385 harrylook  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 11:53:06am

re: #362 000G

Should the reverse be true then as well? Should you be restricted more in your speech because you are poorer than others?

YES! You got me.

hahahaha. No, of course not. If the Wall Streeters went down to the park and camped out in first class LL Bean gear and ate truffles and chanted, "More Wall St. Bailouts Now!" I think we would have to allow it for some period of time. BTW, I don't say OWS can't go back at some point.

386 Gus  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 11:53:17am

re: #381 Varek Raith

Damn right!

*Calls in B-52 strikes on all broccoli farms*

Um sir. We have a new chemical that can take care of that. We call it Agent Broccoli.

//

387 Varek Raith  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 11:53:28am

re: #382 Gus 802

It's always good policy to avoid historical comparisons.

But!
I wanna Godwin the thread!
/

388 zora  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 11:53:37am

re: #354 McSpiff

If an American Indian compared OWS evictions to the Trail of Tears I'd probably still point out it was absurd, although I may not laugh out of sensitivity. I had no problem pointing out to Jewish schoolmates that no, Bush was not Hitler's equal. I see no difference.

i doubt an american indian, worth his salt, would compare the trail of tears to ows evictions.

389 iossarian  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 11:53:46am

re: #383 Killgore Trout

I think those who are mystified by the police clearing the park are probably going to remain confused. The latest court filing cited sanitation, safety, fire hazard, public nuisance and that the protesters were stockpiling weapons. Most of this has been known for quite some time.

Right-wingers: supporting second amendment rights unless they're not supporting them.

390 jaunte  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 11:53:51am

re: #386 Gus 802

Didn't he produce a bunch of James Bond movies?

391 Gus  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 11:54:32am

re: #387 Varek Raith

But!
I wanna Godwin the thread!
/

Trust me. I was tempted. It was only something about a certain shirt color. But I resisted!

392 Varek Raith  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 11:54:39am

re: #390 jaunte

Didn't he produce a bunch of James Bond movies?

That's bad....
You're good at that.
;)

393 McSpiff  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 11:55:19am

re: #388 zora

i doubt an american indian, worth his salt, would compare the trail of tears to ows evictions.

People reach for what they know to help makes sense of new situations. Metaphors can be a very powerful tool, but they have their limits. I think its something we're all guilty of.

394 Olsonist  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 11:55:29am

re: #381 Varek Raith

Damn right!

*Calls in B-52 strikes on all broccoli farms*

I'm going to have to issue a Permanent Restraining Order on that.
I rather like broccoli.

395 Talking Point Detective  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 11:55:30am

re: #379 000G

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

It would be interesting to see a poll phrased differently. The "views" of OWS are certainly nebulous, and I would imagine there's a pretty wide gap between supporting OWS's views (assuming they can be reasonably described) and supporting OWS's tactics, or supporting OWS's existence, etc. It would be a pretty tough issue to poll - as mentioned upstairs.

396 jaunte  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 11:55:38am

I think the 'Occupy' action was a tactical error. The protests should be mobile.

397 Gus  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 11:56:15am

Attica! Attica! Attica!

//Sorry. Couldn't resist.

//

398 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 11:56:37am

re: #375 McSpiff

No, it certainly isn't Tiananmen square.

Tienanmen Square is much larger.

399 jaunte  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 11:56:45am

I'm willing to trade cheese for the caloric equivalent in broccoli.

400 Kragar  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 11:56:50am

re: #387 Varek Raith

But!
I wanna Godwin the thread!
/

You know who else Godwined threads?

Hitler.

401 Killgore Trout  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 11:57:06am

re: #396 jaunte

I think the 'Occupy' action was a tactical error. The protests should be mobile.

The permanent camps in urban parks was a really bad idea. Way too many problems.

402 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 11:57:07am

re: #382 Gus 802

It's always good policy to avoid historical comparisons.

No, I disagree. Apt comparisons help us learn from history (and those who don't learn... etc.). This, of course, is not what happened here, as that was a dumb/ignorant comparison and what seems as a callous response.

403 McSpiff  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 11:57:48am

re: #396 jaunte

I think the 'Occupy' action was a tactical error. The protests should be mobile.

I think making the fight to stay in a park, when your goals obstensibily have nothing to do with that is a waste of energy and man power. On the other hand they're attempting to fight a system that in many ways has no physical presence. You'd be better off occupying the old AT&T Long Lines building than Wall Street if you're really wanted to have a major impact on the financial markets.

404 Talking Point Detective  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 11:57:57am

re: #396 jaunte

I think the 'Occupy' action was a tactical error. The protests should be mobile.

It seems that there's a fair amount of sentiment within the group that is in agreement. It will be interesting to see what happens next; whether they morph into some daytime occupation strategy, fold their tents, etc.

405 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 11:59:05am

re: #382 Gus 802

It's always good policy to avoid historical comparisons.

Historical comparisons are useful.

They just need to be apt.

406 Varek Raith  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 12:00:40pm

Out for a walk.
Laters.

407 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 12:00:51pm

re: #385 harrylook

YES! You got me.

hahahaha. No, of course not. If the Wall Streeters went down to the park and camped out in first class LL Bean gear and ate truffles and chanted, "More Wall St. Bailouts Now!" I think we would have to allow it for some period of time. BTW, I don't say OWS can't go back at some point.

Actually, San Francisco did have a pro-gentrification rally at one point.

It was a gag, although at least one gentleman who showed up didn't realize that.

Then, later, I saw it referenced as an example of unabashed racism, in one of those 'young feminist' anthologies.

Sarcasm in politics is a terribly dangerous thing.

408 Gus  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 12:00:53pm

re: #405 SanFranciscoZionist

Historical comparisons are useful.

They just need to be apt.

Hence the use of the word avoid. One is told to avoid their exposure to the sun. However, that doesn't not mean to avoid sun exposure completely.

409 Gus  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 12:01:48pm

OK. It's 3PM in NYC. Where's the ruling?

410 jaunte  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 12:01:58pm

Texas is finally getting some rain.
[Link: www.chron.com...]

411 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 12:02:24pm

re: #407 SanFranciscoZionist

Actually, San Francisco did have a pro-gentrification rally at one point.

It was a gag, although at least one gentleman who showed up didn't realize that.

Then, later, I saw it referenced as an example of unabashed racism, in one of those 'young feminist' anthologies.

Sarcasm in politics is a terribly dangerous thing.

There was a man who used to show up--I think it was at political conventions, to protest breast feeding.

You read that right. He said it was inhumane and gave men a lifelong fixation on breasts.

I was pretty sure it was a joke.

412 Kragar  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 12:02:28pm

re: #405 SanFranciscoZionist

Historical comparisons are useful.

They just need to be apt.

Thats exactly what the Spanish Inquisition said when they killed JFK.

413 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 12:02:31pm

re: #385 harrylook

YES! You got me.

hahahaha. No, of course not.

So if you should not be restricted in your speech for simply being poorer than others, should government subsidize your monied speech to match up with that of the rich?

414 Obdicut  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 12:03:00pm

re: #411 EmmmieG

What with the anti-circumcision dude being real, I'm not so sure anything is a parody these days.

415 Martinsmithy  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 12:04:07pm

If the OWS people want to be confrontational, then sitting around in parks in politically-friendly urban areas is wimpy. Why not actually occupy wall street? Show up in the middle of a trading day "flash mob" style on the actual Wall Street and shut it down, get hundreds arrested.

The confrontational tactics against the Koch front group in Washington DC was a good start too.

How about going around the country and shutting down the town halls of the Tea Party congressmen? Surround Koch's factory in Wisconsin and shut it down?

Just a few thoughts ...

416 Talking Point Detective  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 12:04:57pm

I wonder if in terms of actual damage, there was more vandalism from this group of incidences of rightwing extremism or all the vandalism that has some folks so hot and bothered about OWS.

And no, that is not a defense of the vandalism from OWS - only making the point that the OWS vandalism should be viewed in full context:

ANSONVILLE, N.C. — Vandals spray-painted "House of the Devil" on a wall, defecated on the pulpit and broke every stained-glass window at a church in North Carolina — the worst-hit of several churches that were vandalized in the area.

The Anson County and Stanly County sheriff’s offices along with the State Bureau of Investigation are investigating the string of vandalism, which occurred early Monday, NBC station WCNC in Charlotte reported.

The hardest-hit church — Cedar Hill AME Zion Church in Ansonville east of Charlotte — was in ruins Monday night as Ansonville Volunteer Fire Fighters and church elders tried to clean up a mess so devastating it left many church members in tears.

Spray painted on the building were phrases “God is a lie” and “House of the Devil,” as well as racial slurs and swastikas. The church's congregation is predominantly black.

Inside the church, vandals defecated on the pulpit, tore out air conditioning units, broke every stained-glass window and left water running in the building. They also tried to burn a cross on the front lawn of the historical church.

MSNBC Video
417 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 12:05:12pm

re: #415 Martinsmithy

That's just dumb.

418 lawhawk  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 12:05:23pm

re: #415 Martinsmithy

That's what the OWS were planning on doing Thursday, which is why I think the move to clear the park this AM was to preempt that potential action and using the park as a staging area for the protest.

419 iossarian  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 12:07:39pm

re: #415 Martinsmithy

Those are good points. I think it's due to the US population's general aversion to confrontational mass action in support of anti-capitalist action, and the historical lack of protection in the US of those involved in such action. Those two factors are obviously closely related: going on marches is generally unpopular when factory goons can crack skulls with impunity.

420 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 12:08:12pm

re: #407 SanFranciscoZionist

Actually, San Francisco did have a pro-gentrification rally at one point.

It was a gag, although at least one gentleman who showed up didn't realize that.

Then, later, I saw it referenced as an example of unabashed racism, in one of those 'young feminist' anthologies.

Sarcasm in politics is a terribly dangerous thing.

There was a similar thing in Germany recently:

But in Munich, Cologne, Hamburg, Leipzig, and Nuremberg only a few hundred people showed up. The biggest disappointment occurred in Berlin itself, where a mere thirty pro-Guttenberg demonstrators bothered to show up at the Brandenburg Gate. They were immediately drowned out by hundreds of Guttenberg opponents, who decided to turn the event into a good-natured bit of fun. Carrying signs with slogans like “Monarchy – Now or Never” and “Guttenberg Must Be Kaiser,” they instantly turned “Germany’s next Chancellor” into a national laughing stock. A Munich-based blog site called the abortive Facebook counterrevolution “Germany’s stupidest demonstration.”

[Link: open.salon.com...]

421 makeitstop  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 12:08:17pm

re: #390 jaunte

Didn't he produce a bunch of James Bond movies?

That was Cubby. Agent's younger brother.

422 Obdicut  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 12:08:26pm

re: #418 lawhawk

I don't think the main body of protesters were planning on doing that, no.

It's kind of insane to think that doing that would pre-empt that action, anyway. The people are incapable of going to a different place to gather first? I guess they could possibly make it smaller, but they might actually provoke more people into doing stuff like that in the future.

423 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Tears  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 12:08:26pm

re: #360 jaunte

I'm in favor of both broccoli and brussels sprouts.

on pizza!

>:D

424 Gus  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 12:09:38pm

@AdamGabbatt Adam Gabbatt
Captain Ray Lewis, Philadelphia police (retired) has joined the protest at Zuccotti Park #ows [Link: pic.twitter.com...]

425 McSpiff  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 12:09:46pm

re: #423 oaktree

on pizza!

>:D

Oaktree... He wasn't the hero we deserved, he was the hero we needed.

426 Killgore Trout  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 12:09:59pm

re: #415 Martinsmithy

The confrontational tactics against the Koch front group in Washington DC was a good start too.

How about going around the country and shutting down the town halls of the Tea Party congressmen? Surround Koch's factory in Wisconsin and shut it down?

Just a few thoughts ...

I'm not familiar enough with your posting to know if that was sarcasm or not. I think the Tea Party idea of shutting down town hall meetings was abhorrent.
Even worse was the antics in DC. I'm not a fan of the Koch Bros but people do have a right to attend political gatherings without vigilante mobs allowing them to leave. Pushing the old ladies down the stairs was a but much. Blocking streets to cars that appeared to be driven by rich people was another stupid idea.
It's just not right and it doesn't respect the freedom of other citizens.

427 Kragar  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 12:10:22pm

re: #423 oaktree

on pizza!

>:D

Sissy.

428 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 12:11:17pm

re: #426 Killgore Trout

I'm not familiar enough with your posting to know if that was sarcasm or not. I think the Tea Party idea of shutting down town hall meetings was abhorrent.
Even worse was the antics in DC. I'm not a fan of the Koch Bros but people do have a right to attend political gatherings without vigilante mobs allowing them to leave. Pushing the old ladies down the stairs was a but much. Blocking streets to cars that appeared to be driven by rich people was another stupid idea.
It's just not right and it doesn't respect the freedom of other citizens.

Exactly.

429 Alexzander  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 12:12:07pm

re: #423 oaktree

on pizza!

>:D

I actually make a thai pizza with brocolli and carrots. It really is quite delicious.

It looks kinda like this, except with more brocolli.

Image: IMG_1453.jpg

Spicy peanut sauce. mmm.

430 makeitstop  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 12:13:44pm

re: #415 Martinsmithy

If the OWS people want to be confrontational, then sitting around in parks in politically-friendly urban areas is wimpy. Why not actually occupy wall street? Show up in the middle of a trading day "flash mob" style on the actual Wall Street and shut it down, get hundreds arrested.

The confrontational tactics against the Koch front group in Washington DC was a good start too.

How about going around the country and shutting down the town halls of the Tea Party congressmen? Surround Koch's factory in Wisconsin and shut it down?

Just a few thoughts ...

I know a few people who would stroke right out if those things happened.

Putting tents up in a damn park is too confrontational for the anti-OWS crowd.

431 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Tears  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 12:14:02pm

re: #424 Gus 802

@AdamGabbatt Adam Gabbatt
Captain Ray Lewis, Philadelphia police (retired) has joined the protest at Zuccotti Park #ows [Link: pic.twitter.com...]

When the linebacker turns up the media will pay attention. :p

432 Kragar  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 12:14:02pm

Jesus Vs. Occupy Wall Street

The guest on today's episode of "WallBuilders Live" was Marybeth Hicks, author of "Don't Let the Kids Drink the Kool-Aid: Confronting the Left's Assault on Our Families, Faith, and Freedom," and she and host Rick Green spent much of the discussion attacking the Occupy Wall Street movement as "demonstrably uneducated," "simplistic," and driven by "kids [who] have no moral compass."

Toward the end of the program, Green and David Barton continued to attack the OWS movement, with Barton claiming that not only would Jesus not support the movement, but would actually advocate taking from the OWS participants and giving it to Wall Street millionaires:

433 iossarian  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 12:14:15pm

re: #428 Sergey Romanov

Exactly.

I don't know. Part of the reason that the US political process is so fucked up is that ordinary people don't organize and stand up for what they want as much as they do in other places.

Corporations have no qualms about running roughshod over the "freedom of other citizens".

434 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Tears  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 12:14:41pm

re: #427 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Sissy.

Channeling Cain today are we?
/

435 makeitstop  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 12:15:07pm

re: #407 SanFranciscoZionist

Actually, San Francisco did have a pro-gentrification rally at one point.

It was a gag, although at least one gentleman who showed up didn't realize that.

Then, later, I saw it referenced as an example of unabashed racism, in one of those 'young feminist' anthologies.

Sarcasm in politics is a terribly dangerous thing.

That brings to mind the 'Billionaires for Bush' group that made the rounds for a few years.

436 lawhawk  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 12:15:31pm

re: #431 oaktree

When the linebacker turns up the media will pay attention. :p

Well, they're certainly not showing up for Eagles games. /HA!

437 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 12:16:17pm

re: #432 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Jesus Vs. Occupy Wall Street

Toward the end of the program, Green and David Barton continued to attack the OWS movement, with Barton claiming that not only would Jesus not support the movement, but would actually advocate taking from the OWS participants and giving it to Wall Street millionaires:

I'm not even a Christian, and even I know about Jesus's #OccupyTheTemple actions and that thing about rich people, camels and needles.

438 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 12:16:50pm

re: #433 iossarian

I see msmithy's post as an intentionally provocative call to a major law-breaking and thuggish behavior. I don't see why it is being updinged. Maybe I'm not reading it correctly.

439 Kragar  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 12:16:58pm

re: #434 oaktree

Channeling Cain today are we?
/

Solomon, not Herman, and its Kane, not Cain.

440 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 12:17:07pm

I support OWS making dumb bigots nervous, and angry.

Although, that never really takes much.

re: #361 Sergey Romanov

There was some poll, but not sure how the results would be distributed today. Somebody needs to do a series of new polls without leading questions and with unambiguous formulations (so, "do you support the aims of OWS" is ambiguous by itself).

441 Talking Point Detective  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 12:17:20pm

re: #436 lawhawk

Well, they're certainly not showing up for Eagles games. /HA!

But according to Andy Reid, linebackers aren't important.

442 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 12:17:23pm

re: #437 Alouette

I'm not even a Christian, and even I know about Jesus's #OccupyTheTemple actions and that thing about rich people, camels and needles.

Barton must have been talking about the parable of the talents.

I consider that a misreading.

443 Kragar  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 12:17:48pm

re: #437 Alouette

I'm not even a Christian, and even I know about Jesus's #OccupyTheTemple actions and that thing about rich people, camels and needles.

Apt comparisons are for the unenlightened.

444 Gus  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 12:17:53pm

Oakland deputy mayor quit.

445 iossarian  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 12:17:54pm

re: #438 Sergey Romanov

I see msmithy's post as an intentionally provocative call to a major law-breaking and thuggish behavior. I don't see why it is being updinged. Maybe I'm not reading it correctly.

What laws is he suggesting should be broken?

446 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 12:17:59pm

re: #442 EmmmieG

Barton must have been talking about the parable of the talents.

I consider that a misreading.

I'm not familiar with that parable.

447 Killgore Trout  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 12:19:06pm

re: #438 Sergey Romanov

I see msmithy's post as an intentionally provocative call to a major law-breaking and thuggish behavior. I don't see why it is being updinged. Maybe I'm not reading it correctly.

I think you're reading it correctly. I'm not surprised by that at all that those ideas have a certain degree of support. It's the kind of thing I've been pointing out for a while now.

448 Kragar  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 12:19:16pm

re: #446 Alouette

I'm not familiar with that parable.

No big deal, Barton isn't either.

449 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 12:21:16pm

re: #447 Killgore Trout

I'm not surprised by that at all that those ideas have a certain degree of support. It's the kind of thing I've been pointing out for a while now.

Shame on me and SFZ.

450 Talking Point Detective  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 12:21:51pm

re: #444 Gus 802

Oakland deputy mayor quit.

Weird situation:

t is unclear if Cornu resigned in protest to Quan’s handling of the Occupy Oakland situation. On Monday, police cleared the Occupy Oakland encampment. Unlike a previous attempt to disperse the protests, this eviction was peaceful.

In an interview with the San Francisco Chronicle, Cornu said Quan’s handling of the situation “was the right way forward” and that she was a strong supporter of the mayor.

[Link: www.washingtonpost.com...]

451 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 12:22:21pm

re: #445 iossarian

What laws is he suggesting should be broken?

If shutting down a factory is not against the law, then I may be wrong, but I'm not ashamed of being wrong on this. Shutting down townhalls is thuggish.

452 Talking Point Detective  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 12:23:34pm

re: #447 Killgore Trout

I think you're reading it correctly. I'm not surprised by that at all that those ideas have a certain degree of support. It's the kind of thing I've been pointing out for a while now.

Yes. Thank god you've been posting about all those people supporting rapes and stabbings. If you weren't here to denounce those things, no one here would realize they shouldn't support rapes and stabbings.

453 Tigger2  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 12:23:38pm

re: #242 harrylook

I don't see why that's even relevant. Citizen's United was about who is a "person" under the First Amendment.

I think most sane people believe OWS has a right to assemble and protest. The issue here is how long NYC is obligated under the First Amendment to allow an occupation of public land. Do you think the answer is forever? I don't. A couple months of 24/7 occupation is more than reasonable.

I'll tell ya what I'm tired of those corporate "persons" Occupying my Government.

454 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 12:25:05pm

re: #446 Alouette

I'm not familiar with that parable.

I wouldn't expect you to be.

The parable is that a man went on a journey. To one servant he gave 5 talents, and to another 2 talents, and to a third 1 talent. (A talent is a certain amount of silver).*

The one that got 5 doubled his talents. The one that got 2 likewise. The one that got one went and hid it.

The one that got one got in trouble, while the other two were praised.

I thought it was understood that it meant that we were to increase the talents and skills we had been given for the betterment of ourselves and others. I had never heard it presented to be about real money.

For example, if you have talents in the medical field, you should go to school and the world will be a better place. If you can sing, you should sing for others and make the world a better place.

*I'm too lazy to double check. If it's not 5, 2, and 1, I apologize.

455 Killgore Trout  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 12:25:52pm

re: #450 Talking Point Detective

From the SFGate article...

“In the last couple weeks, there have been some instances where Sharon and others have worked on something and planned it out and a longtime staffer just decides to do something different,” the colleague said. “There’s no accountability for that. She can’t operate under those conditions.”

“You’re ostensibly the supervisor, but at the end of the day you’re not,” the person said.

That was a problem before Occupy Oakland. But the complex dynamics in dealing with the encampment intensified the discussion. In particular, Cornu was frustrated with how the city’s response was being communicated to the broader public, the colleague said.

It's seems the resignation wasn't in support of the protesters but because of the general clusterfuck of Quan's management.

456 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 12:26:13pm

re: #432 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Jesus Vs. Occupy Wall Street

This is clearly some Jesus I had not previously heard from. It was a common name in the first century.

This guy sounds like a prick. The dude from Nazareth was nicer.

I wonder if they ever met?

457 ProGunLiberal  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 12:26:58pm

Things with Syria are heating up:

After a meeting with Russian officials in Moscow, the opposition Syrian National Council calls for UN peacekeepers to be introduced into Syria. (CNN)

Pressure is being applied to the Syrian government from many sides as Turkey threatens to cut electricity to its southern neighbor. Monday the Arab League held a meeting creating a delegation to document the situation aiming to protect Syrian civilians. Also the EU increased sanctions on the regime. (CNN)

458 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 12:27:00pm

re: #415 Martinsmithy

If the OWS people want to be confrontational, then sitting around in parks in politically-friendly urban areas is wimpy. Why not actually occupy wall street? Show up in the middle of a trading day "flash mob" style on the actual Wall Street and shut it down, get hundreds arrested.

The confrontational tactics against the Koch front group in Washington DC was a good start too.

How about going around the country and shutting down the town halls of the Tea Party congressmen? Surround Koch's factory in Wisconsin and shut it down?

Just a few thoughts ...

Lynch mobs are a bad idea no matter which side they're on.

I don't think the Koch's should be guillotined.

459 Ben G. Hazi  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 12:27:29pm

re: #223 Lidane

Ignoring the inevitable OWS flame war that's going on here since I have law class in a few minutes. I just ran across this:

Coburn: End ‘Welfare For The Well-Off’

Coburn: Called a commie pinko RINO and targeted by the TPers in 5,4,3...

460 Talking Point Detective  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 12:27:30pm

re: #451 Sergey Romanov

If shutting down a factory is not against the law, then I may be wrong, but I'm not ashamed of being wrong on this. Shutting down townhalls is thuggish.

There is something to be said for civil disobedience. We now look back on civil rights civil disobedience with great respect. You know, MLK and unjust laws and all that. Of course laws prohibiting blocking traffic are not unjust in the sense as laws preventing black people from voting - but the focus of OWS is laws which are certainly arguably unjust, but which cannot directly be broken? (How can you use civil disobedience to break a law that allows lobbyists to corrupt our political processes to reward inequality?)

461 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 12:27:43pm

re: #442 EmmmieG

Barton must have been talking about the parable of the talents.

I consider that a misreading.

Like all the parables, it's about the kingdom of heaven. Not good business practice.

462 iossarian  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 12:27:53pm

re: #451 Sergey Romanov

If shutting down a factory is not against the law, then I may be wrong, but I'm not ashamed of being wrong on this. Shutting down townhalls is thuggish.

You know, I take your comments on this type of thing seriously. I don't take such comments seriously from people who, for some unknown reason, fling whatever mud they can scrape together at the OWS movement.

I think the US would benefit from a bit more cohesive popular action, and laws that protect such action. This is the main reason why I initially thought the Tea Party might turn out to be a good thing.

463 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Tears  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 12:28:05pm

re: #429 Alexzander

I actually make a thai pizza with brocolli and carrots. It really is quite delicious.

It looks kinda like this, except with more brocolli.

Image: IMG_1453.jpg

Spicy peanut sauce. mmm.

Looks quite tasty!

464 jaunte  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 12:28:23pm

re: #432 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Barton is such a lamebrain.

465 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 12:28:25pm

re: #456 SanFranciscoZionist

This is clearly some Jesus I had not previously heard from. It was a common name in the first century.

This guy sounds like a prick. The dude from Nazareth was nicer.

I wonder if they ever met?

Oh, so now they're using him too. The first I saw was Matt Bors' cartoon (which I found to be pretty dumb, at least).

466 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 12:28:45pm

re: #456 SanFranciscoZionist

This is clearly some Jesus I had not previously heard from. It was a common name in the first century.

This guy sounds like a prick. The dude from Nazareth was nicer.

I wonder if they ever met?

Maybe this guy was one of the moneychangers that the dude from Nazareth chased out of the Temple vicinity.

467 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 12:28:57pm

make no mistake, Bloomberg said

pay no attention to the banks that I apologize for

468 Three Chord Monty  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 12:29:03pm

I haven't read this thread. I'm not even sure exactly where this is at at the moment. But this has been a big problem for some of us living down here. I just had someone tell me, again, that the movement is more important than my right as a disabled person to use the sidewalks in the neighborhood I live in.

It's been difficult to maintain sympathy for the cause in light of this sort of thing.

469 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 12:29:42pm

re: #460 Talking Point Detective

There is something to be said for civil disobedience. We now look back on civil rights civil disobedience with great respect. You know, MLK and unjust laws and all that. Of course laws prohibiting blocking traffic are not unjust in the sense as laws preventing black people from voting - but the focus of OWS is laws which are certainly arguably unjust, but which cannot directly be broken? (How can you use civil disobedience to break a law that allows lobbyists to corrupt our political processes to reward inequality?)

Because shutting down a Koch-owned factory is just like protesting against segregation. Yeeehaaw.

470 iossarian  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 12:29:51pm

re: #460 Talking Point Detective

Exactly.

471 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 12:29:59pm

re: #455 Killgore Trout

From the SFGate article...

It's seems the resignation wasn't in support of the protesters but because of the general clusterfuck of Quan's management.

I can understand that. 'Clusterfuck' is an apt term.

472 Tigger2  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 12:30:03pm

re: #459 talon_262

Coburn: Called a commie pinko RINO and targeted by the TPers in 5,4,3...

It looks like OWS is already starting to have some affect.

473 Kragar  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 12:30:12pm

re: #461 SanFranciscoZionist

Like all the parables, it's about the kingdom of heaven. Not good business practice.

The stoners at the start of Super Troopers had a more insightful theological discussion than David Barton ever has.

474 Talking Point Detective  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 12:31:17pm

re: #469 Sergey Romanov

Because shutting down a Koch-owned factory is just like protesting against segregation. Yeeehaaw.

Actually, my comment spoke directly to that point. Read it again.

475 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 12:31:39pm

re: #462 iossarian

You know, I take your comments on this type of thing seriously. I don't take such comments seriously from people who, for some unknown reason, fling whatever mud they can scrape together at the OWS movement.

I think the US would benefit from a bit more cohesive popular action, and laws that protect such action. This is the main reason why I initially thought the Tea Party might turn out to be a good thing.

You know that I'm not a far left type when it comes to truly destructive senseless actions. We've been there during the UK riots.

476 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 12:32:12pm

re: #466 Alouette

Maybe this guy was one of the moneychangers that the dude from Nazareth chased out of the Temple vicinity.

After that, he went on a speaking tour. It was safer.

477 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 12:33:20pm

re: #474 Talking Point Detective

Actually, my comment spoke directly to that point. Read it again.

I've read it twice before. I don't see what it addresses. I'm not a "no law can be broken ever" type.

478 Ben G. Hazi  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 12:33:37pm

re: #390 jaunte

Didn't he produce a bunch of James Bond movies?

That would be Albert ;-)

479 Killgore Trout  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 12:33:46pm

re: #469 Sergey Romanov

Because shutting down a Koch-owned factory is just like protesting against segregation. Yeeehaaw.

If the protesters want to rally at a Koch owned factory they are entitled to. If they want to enact civili disbedience and get themselves arrest that's their choice. I think the larger problem comes when they decide that their fellow citizens don't have the right to attend meetings or political events that the protesters don;t agree with. Blocking cars on public roads because the protesters find them undesirable is equally thuggish. It shows a basic lack of understanding about protecting other people's freedoms.

480 Gus  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 12:35:10pm

BREAKING: Judge rules in favor of Occupy Wall Street allowing demonstrators to return.

481 Alexzander  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 12:35:10pm

re: #475 Sergey Romanov

You know that I'm not a far left type when it comes to truly destructive senseless actions. We've been there during the UK riots.

I worry that if US police forces continue to shut down Occupy sites, the energy and anger will boil over into some kind of riot. Or at the very least, a lot of bank windows and possibly police stations are going to be smashed.

Everytime police act like this, they radicalise someone who was otherwise more 'moderate.' Happened to me and many other people I know.

482 Kragar  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 12:35:40pm

re: #480 Gus 802

BREAKING: Judge rules in favor of Occupy Wall Street allowing demonstrators to return.

BLACK ROBED SHADOW CABAL!

483 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 12:35:47pm

re: #480 Gus 802

Again? Another judge?

484 iossarian  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 12:36:19pm

re: #477 Sergey Romanov

I've read it twice before. I don't see what it addresses. I'm not a "no law can be broken ever" type.

I think his point was that the OWS protests (inasmuch as they are about anything) are about the injustice of a legal system that allows banks/corporations to get away with all kinds of crap, and pass the proceeds along to their shareholders.

The problem is that you can't easily break the unjust Citizens United ruling. So what do you do? It's just not the same kind of legal situation as with, e.g., segregated restaurants. But the injustice is potentially just as great.

485 Gus  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 12:36:49pm

re: #483 Sergey Romanov

Again? Another judge?

Yes. Hang on a minute. It's still coming in. Need to confirm.

486 Ben G. Hazi  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 12:36:57pm

re: #473 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

The stoners at the start of Super Troopers had a more insightful theological discussion than David Barton ever has.

"You're freaking out.....man!"

487 Alexzander  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 12:36:59pm

re: #480 Gus 802

BREAKING: Judge rules in favor of Occupy Wall Street allowing demonstrators to return.

What a waste of fucking resources. Hundreds of police, hundreds of arrests, hundreds of destroyed tents and books. Presumably huge amounts of property were thrown out. Ugh.

488 Gus  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 12:37:14pm

Yep.

489 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 12:37:54pm

re: #481 Alexzander

I know what you're talking about.

490 Kragar  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 12:37:56pm

re: #486 talon_262

"You're freaking out...man!"

"You don't own the water, that's God's water."

491 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 12:38:06pm

re: #485 Gus 802

Good.

492 Gus  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 12:38:21pm

Hang on a minute.

493 NJDhockeyfan  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 12:38:34pm

Jay-Z’s ‘Occupy’ Tees Were Sold Out, Not Pulled; Still for Sale

*Looks like Jay-Z is still selling his “Occupy All Streets” t-shirts, despite claims yesterday to the contrary.

As previously reported, the New York Daily News posted a piece saying Jigga’s clothing company Rocawear had suspended sales of the tee supporting the Occupy Wall Street movement in the wake of widespread criticism. But according to a post on the Roc4Life blog, the shirts weren’t pulled, they were sold out.

The blog post states:

Holy smokes. Those “Occupy All Streets” t-shirts sold out faster than Rick Perry can name three agencies. If you missed out on the first batch, we’ve got your back like scoliosis. Rocawear has already restocked the fancy black tops — available in all sizes via Rocawear.com.

“Jay-Z, as talented as he is, has the political sensibility of a hood rat and is a scrotum,” one of the protest organizers said in response to the Occupy All Streets shirts. “To attempt to profit off the first important social moment of 50 years with an overpriced piece of cotton is an insult to the fight for economic civil rights known as #occupywallstreet.”

Russell Simmons, the music industry mogul, defended Jay-Z on Twitter. “No one ever said the proceeds were not going to the cause that’s media’s spin,” tweeted Simmons.

Capitalism!

494 Gus  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 12:38:56pm

Still waiting. They're all spazing out on Twitter. ;)

495 Kragar  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 12:39:49pm

Image: occupy-mordor.jpg

496 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 12:40:13pm

re: #484 iossarian

Again, I'm not saying that no law can ever be broken.
But if they're broken, it's for a cause, not for lulz. And if someone wants to shut down a factory just because it belongs to the hated Kochs makes this action senseless and doesn't really address anything.

497 Kragar  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 12:40:44pm

re: #495 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Image: occupy-mordor.jpg

And then Kilgore chimes in...

Image: one-does-not-simply-occupy-mordor.jpg

498 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 12:40:52pm

re: #493 NJDhockeyfan

Jay-Z’s ‘Occupy’ Tees Were Sold Out, Not Pulled; Still for Sale

Capitalism!

I don't think Jay-Z has ever met anything he didn't figure he could make a buck off of.

Man's a genius. Not a genius in an area I greatly admire, but genius is genius.

Well, I admire the music producing angle.

499 Kronocide  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 12:41:18pm

Cabalistism: the belief that the Free Market is under attack by some shadowy cabal.

500 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 12:41:37pm

re: #498 SanFranciscoZionist

I don't think Jay-Z has ever met anything he didn't figure he could make a buck off of.

Man's a genius. Not a genius in an area I greatly admire, but genius is genius.

Well, I admire the music producing angle.

Not to mention his boycott on Cristal. I thought that was cool too.

501 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 12:41:50pm

""I hear your complaints," Bloomberg said at a Tuesday business breakfast. "Some of them are totally unfounded. It was not the banks that created the mortgage crisis. It was, plain and simple, Congress who forced everybody to go and give mortgages to people who were on the cusp."

Former New York Mayor Ed Koch, who was also at the breakfast, took issue with Bloomberg's claim, saying that he wants a major corporate executive to receive a criminal punishment for their actions during the financial crisis, according to The Associated Press. "

No, Bloomberg isn't a tool of the banks, not at all!

502 Interesting Times  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 12:42:08pm

re: #494 Gus 802

Still waiting. They're all spazing out on Twitter. ;)

Speaking of which, more good news if it amounts to anything:

BreakingNews Breaking News
Senators introduce 'STOCK Act' which would prohibit members or employees of Congress from 'insider trading' - @CBSNews [Link: www.cbsnews.com...]

From the link:

Sens. Scott Brown*, R-Mass., and Kirsten Gillibrand, D-N.Y., today are introducing the Stop Trading on Congressional Knowledge (STOCK) Act of 2011, which would prohibit members or employees of Congress, as well as executive branch employees, from using nonpublic information obtained through their public service for investing or any attempt at personal financial gain.

*Think the challenge he's facing from Elizabeth Warren might have anything to do with that? ;)

503 Gus  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 12:42:22pm

@RayBeckerman RayBeckerman
RT @commondreams: RT @nyclu #occupywallstreet are saying the decision favors them. Nothing official. no nypd movement. #ows

504 Kragar  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 12:42:30pm

re: #499 BigPapa

Cabalistism: the belief that the Free Market is under attack by some shadowy cabal.

Who paid you to say that?

505 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 12:43:38pm

re: #484 iossarian

I think his point was that the OWS protests (inasmuch as they are about anything) are about the injustice of a legal system that allows banks/corporations to get away with all kinds of crap, and pass the proceeds along to their shareholders.

The problem is that you can't easily break the unjust Citizens United ruling. So what do you do? It's just not the same kind of legal situation as with, e.g., segregated restaurants. But the injustice is potentially just as great.

It's less injustice and more systemic cancer that threatens the country's foundation, IMHO

506 Talking Point Detective  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 12:43:52pm

re: #477 Sergey Romanov

I've read it twice before. I don't see what it addresses. I'm not a "no law can be broken ever" type.

And I'm not excusing any breaking of laws, or saying that blocking traffic in NYC is the equivalent of a black woman refusing to move to the back of the bus.

My point is that civil disobedience is a reasonable consideration, and that it's hard to focus civil disobedience against a massive network of laws that create financial inequality. This is part the the inherent difficulty with OWS. They are focusing on issues which are very difficult to target directly because the problem in itself is so diffuse.

For me, the question of civil disobedience depends on a lot of metrics; what are the real negative ramifications, how serious are they in reality, is there really any positive gain, etc. These questions are complex, and should be addressed accordingly. They aren't well served by platitudes coming form either side.

507 jaunte  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 12:44:12pm

re: #501 WindUpBird

"I hear your complaints," Bloomberg said at a Tuesday business breakfast. "Some of them are totally unfounded. It was not the banks that created the mortgage crisis. It was, plain and simple, Congress who forced everybody to go and give mortgages to people who were on the cusp."

That's often an indication that the rest of the analysis is wrong.

508 Kronocide  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 12:44:26pm

re: #504 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Who paid you to say that?

NOTHING TO SEE HERE SHUT UP GO ABOUT YOUR BUSINESS RUN ALONG BUY STUFF LIKE A GOOD PATRIOT.

509 Charles Johnson  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 12:44:47pm

While we wait for the ruling, here's a puppy giving a cat a massage.

Youtube Video
510 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 12:45:05pm

re: #505 WindUpBird

whereas America has always run on the backs of the disadvantaged, that's nothing new

511 Interesting Times  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 12:45:35pm

re: #501 WindUpBird

""I hear your complaints," Bloomberg said at a Tuesday business breakfast.

I initially saw "hear" as "hate". Misread but accurate? :/

512 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 12:45:41pm

re: #501 WindUpBird

""I hear your complaints," Bloomberg said at a Tuesday business breakfast. "Some of them are totally unfounded. It was not the banks that created the mortgage crisis. It was, plain and simple, Congress who forced everybody to go and give mortgages to people who were on the cusp."

Former New York Mayor Ed Koch, who was also at the breakfast, took issue with Bloomberg's claim, saying that he wants a major corporate executive to receive a criminal punishment for their actions during the financial crisis, according to The Associated Press. "

No, Bloomberg isn't a tool of the banks, not at all!

Bloomberg's a moron. His job is not to adjudicate between the banks and the protesters and Congress. He's the damn mayor.

He's also, I imagine, just reignited the legend of Ed Koch, so that should be interesting.

513 shutdown  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 12:45:52pm

re: #509 Charles

While we wait for the ruling, here's a puppy giving a cat a massage.

[Video]

Ummm. That's not a massage. It's a botched "happy ending".
O_o

514 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 12:46:15pm

re: #503 Gus 802

@RayBeckerman RayBeckerman
RT @commondreams: RT @nyclu #occupywallstreet are saying the decision favors them. Nothing official. no nypd movement. #ows

Here's what I do know


for an insignificant bunch of hippies, they sure have the whole country talking and arguing about them :D

515 NJDhockeyfan  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 12:47:06pm

NBC NY : BREAKING NEWS Judge Delays Occupy Wall Street Crackdown

516 Kragar  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 12:47:17pm

re: #514 WindUpBird

Here's what I do know

for an insignificant bunch of hippies, they sure have the whole country talking and arguing about them :D

They just need to be reminded how insignificant they are ad nauseum.

517 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 12:47:27pm

re: #506 Talking Point Detective

I don't take issue with civil disobedience. I just don't see some things as civil disobedience.

518 Killgore Trout  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 12:48:06pm

re: #515 NJDhockeyfan

NBC NY : BREAKING NEWS Judge Delays Occupy Wall Street Crackdown

That's the ruling from earlier this morning.

519 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 12:48:25pm

re: #509 Charles

While we wait for the ruling, here's a puppy giving a cat a massage.

[Video]

Damn, you had to go and ruin the mood.///

520 Gus  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 12:48:44pm

re: #518 Killgore Trout

That's the ruling from earlier this morning.

Yep.

521 jaunte  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 12:50:49pm

Sarah Posner:
The religious right is on a new mission: to prove that the Obama administration is anti-Catholic.

522 Killgore Trout  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 12:51:08pm

re: #520 Gus 802

Yep.

It's hard to tell watching the news feeds. Most news outlets are still reporting the decision from earlier today. As far as I can tell there's been no updates on a new decision. From what Lawhawk was talking about earlier I don't think the new ruling will favor the protesters. They did a bit of judge shopping to get that favorable ruling.

523 blueraven  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 12:51:09pm

re: #376 harrylook

Well, as I understand the case, it was about these PAC's - giving money to those groups to run ads. I don't see a need to restrict that for anyone. Contributions directly to elected officials is a much more complicated issue. Influence is clearly bought every day in DC, despite the current restrictions on direct contributions. My solution for that is term limits and other rules restricting the actions of elected officials. Restricting speech should always be a last resort.

In other words, the more money you have the more free speech is due you.

That is crazy. These superpacs have unlimited donations from dummy corporations. It is a legalized, political, money laundering scheme that has undue influence on policy.

524 shutdown  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 12:51:39pm

Here is a theme song for the Cain campaign:
Born under a Bad SIgn - Hendrix

525 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 12:51:52pm

re: #523 blueraven

In other words, the more money you have the more free speech is due you.

That is crazy. These superpacs have unlimited donations from dummy corporations. It is a legalized, political, money laundering scheme that has undue influence on policy.

America! We're REALLY GOOD AT CORRUPTION

526 makeitstop  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 12:52:50pm

Looks like Newt's moment in the sun is already gone.

Borowitz Report: Startled Deer becomes new Republican Frontrunner

527 shutdown  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 12:52:57pm

re: #523 blueraven

In other words, the more money you have the more free speech is due you.

That is crazy. These superpacs have unlimited donations from dummy corporations. It is a legalized, political, money laundering scheme that has undue influence on policy.

Not money laundering. Influence purchasing. IMHO, worse. In money laundering, at least the crooks admit they are crooks.

528 jaunte  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 12:53:56pm

re: #526 makeitstop

“Voters like what they see in Bucky,” said veteran political strategist Ed Rollins, who has signed on to helm the red deer’s primary campaign. “The fact that he is unable to speak is a major asset.”

Lol.

529 blueraven  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 12:54:12pm

re: #527 imp_62

Not money laundering. Influence purchasing. IMHO, worse. In money laundering, at least the crooks admit they are crooks.

It's both, in that the donations are anonymous.

530 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Tears  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 12:54:19pm

re: #523 blueraven

In other words, the more money you have the more free speech is due you.

That is crazy. These superpacs have unlimited donations from dummy corporations. It is a legalized, political, money laundering scheme that has undue influence on policy.

And it is amazing how many of these superpacs just so happen to end up being run by "former" close advisors or campaign managers of the various candidates. Whose views and candidacy said superpac just so happens to support and endorse. (Though without communicating and coordinating with the candidate's official campaign.)

531 Gus  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 12:54:33pm

re: #522 Killgore Trout

It's hard to tell watching the news feeds. Most news outlets are still reporting the decision from earlier today. As far as I can tell there's been no updates on a new decision. From what Lawhawk was talking about earlier I don't think the new ruling will favor the protesters. They did a bit of judge shopping to get that favorable ruling.

Nope. Hang on...

532 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 12:55:08pm

re: #526 makeitstop

Looks like Newt's moment in the sun is already gone.

Borowitz Report: Startled Deer becomes new Republican Frontrunner

Watta rip-off!

[Link: www.borowitzreport.com...]

533 Gus  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 12:55:25pm

Not yet!

534 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 12:56:36pm
Dear ,

They can take away the tarps and the tents. But they can’t slow down the Occupy Wall Street movement.

There have been police raids on Occupy Wall Street in Oakland, Calif.; Portland, Ore.; Denver; Albany, N.Y.; Burlington, Vt.; and Chapel Hill, N.C.—and now, last night in New York’s Zuccotti Park—orchestrated by politicians acting on behalf of the 1%.

But the 99% is undaunted. Occupy Wall Street’s message already has created a new day. This movement has created a seismic shift in our national debate—from austerity and cuts to jobs, inequality and our broken economic system....

The Occupy Wall Street movement has been committed to peaceful, nonviolent action from its inception. And it will keep spreading no matter what elected officials tell police to do. But that doesn’t mean these raids are acceptable. In fact, they are inexcusable.

As former Secretary of State Colin Powell put it, these protests are “as American as apple pie.” Americans must be allowed to speak out against pervasive inequality, even if the truth discomfits the 1%.

The AFL-CIO will do everything in our power to make sure the free speech rights of these peaceful protesters are protected.

Click here to find a Nov. 17 bridge action near you.

And click here to send a message of solidarity directly to the Occupy Wall Street protesters—Working America will deliver it this week.

We are the 99%.

In Solidarity,
Richard L. Trumka

President, AFL-CIO

535 Kragar  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 12:58:16pm

NBC releases transcript for Sandusky interview

BOB COSTAS:

18:58:59:00: "But you're a man who by his own admission has showered with young boys, highly inappropriate. Who has continually put himself in the presence of young boys, volunteer high school coach, volunteer at a small local college, even after -- you were largely disassociated from Penn State. Multiple reports of you getting into bed with young boys who stayed at your house in a room in the basement. How do you account for these things? And if you're not a pedophile, then what are you?"

JERRY SANDUSKY:

18:59:30:00: "Well I'm a person that has taken a strong interest. I'm a very passionate person in terms of trying to make a difference in the lives of some young people. I worked very hard to try to connect with them. To make them feel good about themselves. To -- be something significant in their lives. Maybe this gets misinterpreted, has gotten depending on -- I know a lot of young people where it hasn't. I have worked with many, many young people where there has been no misinterpretation of my actions and I have made a very significant difference in their lives."

BOB COSTAS:

19:00:28:00: "But isn't what you're just describing the classic MO of many pedophiles? And that is that they gain the trust of young people, they don't necessarily abuse every young person. There were hundreds, if not thousands of young boys you came into contact with, but there are allegations that at least eight of them were victimized. Many people believe there are more to come. So it's entirely possible that you could've helped young boy A in some way that was not objectionable while horribly taking advantage of young boy B, C, D, and E. Isn't that possible?"

JERRY SANDUSKY:

19:01:01:00: "Well -- you might think that. I don't know. (LAUGHS) In terms of -- my relationship with so many, many young people. I would-- I would guess that there are many young people who would come forward. Many more young people who would come forward and say that my methods and-- and what I had done for them made a very positive impact on their life. And I didn't go around seeking out every young person for sexual needs that I've helped. There are many that I didn't have-- I hardly had any contact with who I have helped in many, many ways."

So, his excuse is lots of kids would say he helped them out, and he didn't molest every kid he every met.

536 shutdown  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 12:58:24pm

re: #534 WindUpBird

Being hijacked by organised labour goons will be the beginning of the end for OWS.

537 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 12:59:04pm

re: #534 WindUpBird

I hope they'll let them back on the condition that they can't stay at night. That last one will actually help them.

538 engineer cat  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 12:59:08pm

does this mean that the price of zuccottis will go down at the farmer's market?

539 makeitstop  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 12:59:13pm

re: #532 Sergey Romanov

Watta rip-off!

[Link: www.borowitzreport.com...]

So Startled Deer is no political neophyte...

Even better! Experience counts! :)

540 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 1:00:18pm

re: #539 makeitstop

So Startled Deer is no political neophyte...

Even better! Experience counts! :)

Yeah, and he still is a dark horse candidate.

541 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 1:01:40pm

re: #535 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

"I've molested only a bit! Honest!"

542 makeitstop  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 1:02:05pm

re: #535 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

NBC releases transcript for Sandusky interview

So, his excuse is lots of kids would say he helped them out, and he didn't molest every kid he every met.

The Cain Defense. Everybody from the NYPD to Jerry Sandusky is using it.

'For every _____ I _____, there are thousands who I didn't_____!'

543 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 1:02:07pm

re: #536 imp_62

Being hijacked by organised labour goons will be the beginning of the end for OWS.

Everyone seems to have an opinion about how OWS is failing or ending,, even as it's gaining momentum


Sorry, not buying it ;-)

544 engineer cat  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 1:02:13pm

re: #29 Rightwingconspirator

Because the economy crashed so hard we got these tents. As a result of those tents so to speak) we have these tents.

i don't know about you, but this makes me two tents

545 Kragar  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 1:02:45pm

re: #541 Sergey Romanov

"I've molested only a bit! Honest!"

Its like a doctor arguing he saved hundreds of patients, so he should be entitled to kill one every once in a while.

546 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 1:03:12pm

re: #535 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

NBC releases transcript for Sandusky interview

So, his excuse is lots of kids would say he helped them out, and he didn't molest every kid he every met.

I don't know if this is someone so deep in denial about the harm he's done that he's continuing to push his charitable work, as though somehow this mitigates it, or if he's someone who's succesfully gotten people to believe that he's a saint for so long that he can't believe it's not working any more.

547 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 1:03:42pm

re: #538 engineer dog

does this mean that the price of zuccottis will go down at the farmer's market?

Is that a hybrid of an apricot and a zucchini?

548 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 1:03:42pm

re: #539 makeitstop

So Startled Deer is no political neophyte...

Even better! Experience counts! :)

Heh. He's been around.

[Link: www.borowitzreport.com...]

[Link: www.borowitzreport.com...]

549 Kragar  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 1:06:18pm

I can't believe Sandusky's lawyer let him give that interview.

550 makeitstop  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 1:06:32pm

re: #548 Sergey Romanov

Heh. He's been around.

[Link: www.borowitzreport.com...]

[Link: www.borowitzreport.com...]

Holy crap - he has foreign policy and national security experience?

This Startled Deer guy could give Generic Republican a run for his money!

551 Gus  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 1:06:34pm

The library books are safe. Don't know if it's all of them but they're in storage and can be picked up tomorrow.

552 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 1:09:06pm

So only 2/7ths of our supreme court are bought and paid for by the GOP: [Link: www.latimes.com...]


well about what i expected


they don't even have to hide it! Just right there in the open

553 lawhawk  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 1:09:38pm

re: #551 Gus 802

[Link: gothamist.com...]

554 Lidane  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 1:09:56pm

LOL Herman Cain:

Cain: Kissinger Declined Offer To Be Secretary Of State

Richard Nixon one, Herman Cain zero.

Herman Cain said yesterday that the 88 year-old Henry Kissinger has declined an offer to serve as Secretary of State in his putative administration.

“Dr. Kissinger turned my offer down to be Secretary of State,” said Cain when asked who he might put in his administration. “He said he’s perfectly happy doing what he’s doing,” Cain added.

Cain revealed the offer in a video interview — yeah, that one — with the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel editorial board.

Cain also mentioned Jim DeMint, Paul Ryan, KT McFarland, John Bolton, and John Chain as potential administration-members, though he didn’t say whether he’d made them job offers.

Also, no word yet on whether Spiro Agnew will agree to be Cain’s running mate.

555 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 1:10:54pm

re: #553 lawhawk

their library structure looks almost exactly like the shade structure I put up at Burning Man with my camp


cool!

556 lawhawk  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 1:11:11pm

re: #554 Lidane

Kissinger knows the value of not getting in too deep with a losing cause.

557 shutdown  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 1:12:23pm

re: #543 WindUpBird

Once the movement is having its strings jerked by the AFL-CIO, a big part of the grassroots message is no longer valid. Its momentum will be shifted towards union priorities, and the orignal issue set will be paid no more than lip service. The core problem faced by OWS is lack of a coherent set of demands and the inability to identify distinct, coherent policy issues to protest. The idea of "Wall Street" is too diffuse to hold the attention of a large crowd for very long. What do you rally around? The idea that "fairness" is better than "unfairness"? The concept that being plucked by the robber barons is wrong? Noble and just theories, but not much there politically to hang an activist hat on.

I have great sympathy with the OWS movement and am broadly supportive of the ideas and concerns being expressed. My concern is that once the initial tinder burns out, there won't be enough substance to build a proper "fire" - if you get my drift.

558 Kragar  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 1:12:49pm

James O’Keefe Operative: He’s Only Interested In A ‘Hit Job’

O’Keefe has long maintained that he’s a serious journalist who employs a “form of investigative reporting that you use to seek and find the truth.” But Simon Templar, who played the faux Muslim donor in an infamous undercover piece on NPR, told the Daily Beast’s Howard Kurtz that O’Keefe is only interested in producing “hit job[s].” Templar, who wanted to carry out a “thoroughly researched and impeccably executed project” on the supposed threat of Sharia law, says O’Keefe rushed the project to maximize its political impact and didn’t care if the final report ended up being “extremely slipshod“:

Shaughn Adeleye, who worked with Templar in posing as another member of the phony Muslim group, also disagreed with O’Keefe’s tactics. “We were both sold a false bill of goods,” says Adeleye, who devised the NPR scheme and persuaded O’Keefe to adopt it. [...]

“I felt deceived and misled because James did not live up to what we all agreed upon would be a multifaceted project,” says Adeleye, who was born in Nigeria. “After a while I could not deny the truth anymore.”[...]

“I was always struggling to pull him away from his shtick of walking into an office with a bizarre pretense and taping some secretary or low-level worker,” says Templar. “I wanted him to think much bigger.”

559 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 1:12:58pm

re: #535 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

NBC releases transcript for Sandusky interview

JERRY SANDUSKY:

19:01:01:00: "Well -- you might think that. I don't know. (LAUGHS) In terms of -- my relationship with so many, many young people. I would-- I would guess that there are many young people who would come forward. Many more young people who would come forward and say that my methods and-- and what I had done for them made a very positive impact on their life. And I didn't go around seeking out every young person for sexual needs that I've helped. There are many that I didn't have-- I hardly had any contact with who I have helped in many, many ways."

So, his excuse is lots of kids would say he helped them out, and he didn't molest every kid he every met.

Or, in other words, the bastards should be grateful for having been able to bask in his presence, oh the martyrdom.

How utterly typical of a child-collector. /spit

560 b_Snark  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 1:13:09pm

Political Hint of the Day:

If you want to justify an action or the suggestion of an action, just call it common sense.

561 blueraven  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 1:13:19pm

re: #549 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

I can't believe Sandusky's lawyer let him give that interview.

Maybe they are going for an insanity defense. That's the only possible explanation I can come up with.

562 harrylook  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 1:13:31pm

re: #413 000G

So if you should not be restricted in your speech for simply being poorer than others, should government subsidize your monied speech to match up with that of the rich?

No. I concede that the more money you have, the more opportunity you have to get your message out. I don't think there is any good way to fix this problem. I wouldn't even call it a problem. It's just the way things are. The real problem is that politicians listen to people with lots of money a lot more than they listen to poor people. Maybe OWS should go occupy Congress.

563 jaunte  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 1:14:02pm

re: #554 Lidane

no word yet on whether Spiro Agnew will agree to be Cain’s running mate

He's holding out for William Miller.

564 makeitstop  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 1:14:19pm

re: #553 lawhawk

[Link: gothamist.com...]

That would suck if that tent got trashed.

565 engineer cat  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 1:14:21pm

re: #554 Lidane

LOL Herman Cain:

Cain: Kissinger Declined Offer To Be Secretary Of State

probably it's wise to decline job offers after one reaches the age of four thousand or so...

566 shutdown  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 1:14:40pm

re: #558 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Is Simon Templar really the guy's name?

567 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 1:15:13pm

re: #557 imp_62

You're making the same error a lot of people are making

which is assuming that OWS won't evolve

but it's already evolving, it's been doing so quite nicely

568 engineer cat  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 1:15:45pm

Spiro Agnew

shamelessly using this opportunity to point out that 'spiro agnew' is an anagram of 'grow a penis'

569 lawhawk  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 1:16:12pm

re: #566 imp_62

He's not The Saint you're looking for.

570 makeitstop  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 1:16:30pm

re: #568 engineer dog

Spiro Agnew

shamelessly using this opportunity to point out that 'spiro agnew' is an anagram of 'grow a penis'

You nattering nabob of negativism!
/

571 McSpiff  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 1:16:53pm

re: #567 WindUpBird

You're making the same error a lot of people are making

which is assuming that OWS won't evolve

but it's already evolving, it's been doing so quite nicely

Its true, it was originally focused on Wall Street. Now its fighting for camper's rights everywhere!

572 wrenchwench  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 1:17:53pm

re: #537 Sergey Romanov

I hope they'll let them back on the condition that they can't stay at night. That last one will actually help them.

I first read that as a response to 535 instead of 534. I had to scroll up.

573 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 1:17:54pm

re: #568 engineer dog

Spiro Agnew

shamelessly using this opportunity to point out that 'spiro agnew' is an anagram of 'grow a penis'

OK, now it makes sense. Always wondered about that name. And surname.

574 b_Snark  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 1:18:05pm

re: #567 WindUpBird

You're making the same error a lot of people are making

which is assuming that OWS won't evolve

but it's already evolving, it's been doing so quite nicely

As should we all.

575 shutdown  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 1:18:38pm

re: #567 WindUpBird

You're making the same error a lot of people are making

which is assuming that OWS won't evolve

but it's already evolving, it's been doing so quite nicely

In one short paragraph, can you define OWS in a globally applicable declarative statement?

I don't want to come off as opposing OwS, cause I don't. I question the adaptability of diffuse, leaderless movements. It's the anarchism paradox - you can't run a movement that defines itself as not having leadership structures.

576 William Barnett-Lewis  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 1:18:38pm

re: #454 EmmmieG

I wouldn't expect you to be.

The parable is that a man went on a journey. To one servant he gave 5 talents, and to another 2 talents, and to a third 1 talent. (A talent is a certain amount of silver).*

The one that got 5 doubled his talents. The one that got 2 likewise. The one that got one went and hid it.

The one that got one got in trouble, while the other two were praised.

I thought it was understood that it meant that we were to increase the talents and skills we had been given for the betterment of ourselves and others. I had never heard it presented to be about real money.

For example, if you have talents in the medical field, you should go to school and the world will be a better place. If you can sing, you should sing for others and make the world a better place.

*I'm too lazy to double check. If it's not 5, 2, and 1, I apologize.

The problem, of course, is that Jesus' parables are never really about what they seem to be. This isn't really about money or about talents despite the linguistic co-incidence of the words. Rather it is about one's relationship with God. Those who have a good relationship and expect good from God receive all the good they expect and more while those who fear and expect ill receive what they expect. It's rather like in Exodus, at the beginning of the commandments. " I am the Lord your God." He's already there and doing things for them despite the fact that he hasn't yet gotten around to setting all the rules we should keep, even though we won't. The relationship is already there, all we have to do is want to make it work.

Well, that's what the guest priest said on Sunday... some things to ponder at least.

577 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 1:18:55pm

re: #572 wrenchwench

I first read that as a response to 535 instead of 534. I had to scroll up.

Uh.

;)

578 b_Snark  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 1:19:56pm

re: #575 imp_62

In one short paragraph, can you define OWS in a globally applicable declarative statement?

(snip)

Why is that necessary?

579 wrenchwench  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 1:20:03pm

re: #577 Sergey Romanov

Uh.

;)

Fortunately, I realized my mistake before flaming the hell out of you.

:)

580 lawhawk  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 1:20:25pm

The crackdowns have only served to increase their profile and encouraged more people to follow the events. Score one for the protesters regardless of whether you agree or disagree with the protests or their tactics.

The protests at Zuccotti grew significantly after the marches and arrests at the Brooklyn Bridge and attempted sit-ins out in front of the NYSE.

We will probably see something similar now as the OWS figures out what to do next and awaits the latest judge's ruling.

At the same time, I still think that winter will ultimately bring things to a conclusion (and the cops will use the same rules that they use on the homeless to roust the protesters from the park as they use for the homeless) although the fact that they stuck around through the nor'easter shows staying power.

581 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 1:20:49pm

re: #579 wrenchwench

Well, you know me better. I've been here for 1 year and 1 day now. ;)

582 shutdown  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 1:21:00pm

re: #578 b_sharp

Why is that necessary?

If you have no starting point, you cannot evolve. If I cannot define what something was yesterday, how can I claim it is something different today?

583 Killgore Trout  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 1:21:12pm

Adbusters, the Occupy Wall Street innovator, says movement should wind down and start up in spring

Just hours before the raid on Zuccotti Park, the original godfather of Occupy Wall Street - a Canadian anti-capitalist group - advised the protesters it might be time to wind things down for the winter.
...
Then we clean up, scale back and most of us go indoors while the die-hards hold the camps,” the editors of Adbusters magazine wrote in a “tactical briefing” published online Monday.

“We use the winter to brainstorm, network, build momentum so that we may emerge rejuvenated with fresh tactics, philosophies, and a myriad projects ready to rumble next Spring.”

584 Gus  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 1:21:20pm

Back later.

585 blueraven  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 1:22:04pm

re: #571 McSpiff

Its true, it was originally focused on Wall Street. Now its fighting for camper's rights for the homeless, mentally disturbed everywhere!

Yes, the underprivileged and disenfranchised; the least among us.

586 wrenchwench  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 1:23:00pm

re: #581 Sergey Romanov

Well, you know me better. I've been here for 1 year and 1 day now. ;)

Happy Hatch Day!

587 engineer cat  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 1:23:30pm

re: #567 WindUpBird

You're making the same error a lot of people are making

which is assuming that OWS won't evolve

but it's already evolving, it's been doing so quite nicely

the 'tea party' has managed to exist, as a meme if nothing else, despite not having held any notable public gathering in over a year and a half. the tea party is also supposed to be a leaderless movement, with no official or fixed set of goals

588 McSpiff  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 1:23:47pm

re: #585 blueraven

Yes, the underprivileged and disenfranchised; the least among us.

I don't disagree, but I think that counts as losing your message somewhere...

589 shutdown  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 1:25:30pm

re: #587 engineer dog

the 'tea party' has managed to exist, as a meme if nothing else, despite not having held any notable public gathering in over a year and a half. the tea party is also supposed to be a leaderless movement, with no official or fixed set of goals

"...supposed to be..." But the reality is that it is well-funded and organized according to political party structures.

590 b_Snark  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 1:26:00pm

re: #582 imp_62

If you have no starting point, you cannot evolve. If I cannot define what something was yesterday, how can I claim it is something different today?

You're assuming this starting point has to be in the form of single globally applicable description. There are a number of diverse groups involved, each of them with their own starting point and evolution. Since the OWS is a sum of its parts, as the parts evolve so does the OWS.

591 engineer cat  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 1:26:53pm

re: #589 imp_62

"...supposed to be..." But the reality is that it is well-funded and organized according to political party structures.

"pay no attention to the man behind the curtain!"

592 Obdicut  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 1:27:20pm

re: #549 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

I can't believe Sandusky's lawyer let him give that interview.

Sandusky's lawyer impregnated a 17 year old client when he, the lawyer, was 49.

593 jaunte  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 1:28:54pm

re: #592 Obdicut

Even younger:
[Link: www.nydailynews.com...]

594 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 1:31:27pm

re: #501 WindUpBird

""I hear your complaints," Bloomberg said at a Tuesday business breakfast. "Some of them are totally unfounded. It was not the banks that created the mortgage crisis. It was, plain and simple, Congress who forced everybody to go and give mortgages to people who were on the cusp."

Pretty blatant lie.

595 shutdown  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 1:31:44pm

re: #590 b_sharp

You're assuming this starting point has to be in the form of single globally applicable description. There are a number of diverse groups involved, each of them with their own starting point and evolution. Since the OWS is a sum of its parts, as the parts evolve so does the OWS.

You are implying a single, monolithic organizing principle where there is none. ATM, OWS is a loose affiliation of well-meaning, localized flash mobs in tents. They are by definition highly localized, as the targets of the protest are local banks and entities. Do not mistake adaptation for evolution. Something sustainable and meaningful may well spring out of the OWS movement, but OWS is more a political agar than a coherent political movement. OWS 2.0 in Zurich will be very different than that in New York. The legal, social, political and philosophical environments are too varied.

596 Kragar  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 1:34:10pm

re: #593 jaunte

Even younger:
[Link: www.nydailynews.com...]

If pedos don't watch out for each other, who will?

597 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 1:35:15pm

re: #505 WindUpBird

It's less injustice and more systemic cancer that threatens the country's foundation, IMHO

It's injustice alright. "Systemic cancer" doesn't mean anything beyond mangled biologistic metaphors that don't work.

598 shutdown  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 1:35:50pm

re: #596 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

If pedos don't watch out for each other, who will?

As the bile rises...

599 b_Snark  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 1:35:52pm

re: #595 imp_62

You are implying a single, monolithic organizing principle where there is none. ATM, OWS is a loose affiliation of well-meaning, localized flash mobs in tents. They are by definition highly localized, as the targets of the protest are local banks and entities. Do not mistake adaptation for evolution. Something sustainable and meaningful may well spring out of the OWS movement, but OWS is more a political agar than a coherent political movement. OWS 2.0 in Zurich will be very different than that in New York. The legal, social, political and philosophical environments are too varied.

How does "There are a number of diverse groups involved, each of them with their own starting point and evolution" imply a monolithic group?

600 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 1:37:01pm

re: #509 Charles

While we wait for the ruling, here's a puppy giving a cat a massage.

[Video]

Japanese people make the cutest amateur videos of their pets. How do they do it?

601 shutdown  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 1:39:08pm

re: #599 b_sharp

Didn't say "group", said "organizing principle". I have seen and spoken to members of several OWS groups. Beyond a common sense of injustice being perpetrated by financial institutions and the government, the commonalities are relatively few. The concept of "Occupy" is franchiseable, as it were. And the groups are adapting to changing circumstances - mainly environmental. The core political engine of the "movement" is running on different types of fuel at the different locations.

602 b_Snark  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 1:41:58pm

re: #601 imp_62

Didn't say "group", said "organizing principle". I have seen and spoken to members of several OWS groups. Beyond a common sense of injustice being perpetrated by financial institutions and the government, the commonalities are relatively few. The concept of "Occupy" is franchiseable, as it were. And the groups are adapting to changing circumstances - mainly environmental. The core political engine of the "movement" is running on different types of fuel at the different locations.

OK.

How does "There are a number of diverse groups involved, each of them with their own starting point and evolution" imply a monolithic organizing principle?

603 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 1:42:21pm

re: #600 000G

Japanese people make the cutest amateur videos of their pets. How do they do it?

Deep cultural committment to cuteness as a basic organizing principal of the universe.

604 makeitstop  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 1:43:02pm

re: #600 000G

Japanese people make the cutest amateur videos of their pets. How do they do it?

I like the ones this guy does. The scary music cracks me up.

Youtube Video
605 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 1:43:38pm

re: #536 imp_62

Being hijacked by organised labour goons will be the beginning of the end for OWS.

Organised labour has been there almost from the start. There is no need for Glenn Beckisms.

606 blueraven  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 1:45:43pm

re: #588 McSpiff

I don't disagree, but I think that counts as losing your message somewhere...

Not really, If there was a little money for services for these people their plight may improve. If we would stop allowing tax breaks for the uber wealthy, loopholes and corporate welfare, maybe that could happen.

607 shutdown  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 1:46:45pm

re: #602 b_sharp

OK.

How does "There are a number of diverse groups involved, each of them with their own starting point and evolution" imply a monolithic organizing principle?

I disagree with the concept that the groups are evolving. I don't disagree with the balance of your statement. However, you are admitting that they are distinct groups that share a common name and possibly a few common ideas. Also, my response was triggered by your comment, but was as much an expansion of my previous comment (too which you were also in part replying) as it was a direct reply to your statement. The internet equivalent of turning towards you to continue the conversation.

608 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 1:47:35pm

re: #551 Gus 802

The library books are safe. Don't know if it's all of them but they're in storage and can be picked up tomorrow.

phew

609 McSpiff  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 1:50:28pm

re: #606 blueraven

Not really, If there was a little money for services for these people their plight may improve. If we would stop allowing tax breaks for the uber wealthy, loopholes and corporate welfare, maybe that could happen.

It would also allow local governments to improve their road systems, but I don't think I'd say that's a guiding goal of OWS. In the same way, I think its sad that the first court cases brought forward by OWS are for their ability to camp ina park.

610 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 1:52:23pm

re: #558 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Trouble in Big Government Paradise?:

[Link: biggovernment.com...]
[Link: biggovernment.com...]

611 b_Snark  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 1:54:12pm

re: #607 imp_62

I disagree with the concept that the groups are evolving. I don't disagree with the balance of your statement. However, you are admitting that they are distinct groups that share a common name and possibly a few common ideas. Also, my response was triggered by your comment, but was as much an expansion of my previous comment (too which you were also in part replying) as it was a direct reply to your statement. The internet equivalent of turning towards you to continue the conversation.

Gotcha.

Now what's the difference between adaptation and evolution?

612 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 1:54:51pm

re: #562 harrylook

I wouldn't even call it a problem. It's just the way things are.

It's the result of massive wealth inequality and corporate personhood status allowing indefinite money as free speech. And yes, that is a massive problem, regardless of whether you would call it one. And it's not "just the way things are". It's how things were made to be.

613 shutdown  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 2:01:37pm

re: #611 b_sharp

Gotcha.

Now what's the difference between adaptation and evolution?

That is a song for different concert :)
In a political context, I use the terms to denote the difference between adjusting to external conditions and working on proactively developing new strategies to enable future survival of the movement.

614 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 2:04:29pm

re: #613 imp_62

Sounds like you are talking about the difference between reactionary and revolutionary.

615 shutdown  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 2:05:42pm

re: #614 000G

Sounds like you are talking about the difference between reactionary and revolutionary.

Probably. I was writing on the fly while thinking about work issues.

616 Gus  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 8:12:05pm

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617 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 10:34:03pm

re: #616 Gus 802

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