Yet Another Wingnut Blogosphere Fail: No Connection Between White House Shooter and OWS

Wingnuts jumped the gun … again
US News • Views: 25,017

Right wing blogs immediately tried to link the alleged White House shooter to Occupy Wall Street, but tonight authorities announced they have found no connection between Oscar Ramiro Ortega-Hernandez and the demonstrations.

Ortega-Hernandez, whose permanent place of residence is unclear, has a record of arrests on minor counts in Texas, Utah and Idaho, authorities said. They said they have not linked him to any radical organizations.

In trying to determine why he recently traveled to the nation’s capital from the western part of the country, investigators searched the Occupy D.C. campground near the White House but have found no connection between him and the Occupy protesters, according to three law enforcement officials familiar with the case.

One of the officials, speaking on the condition of anonymity because the investigation is continuing, said the motive for the gunfire might have been simple anger: Ortega-Hernandez “hates the president, he hates Washington, he hates society,” the official said.

Chalk up another massive fail for the world’s largest right wing echo chamber.

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920 comments
1 darthstar  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 8:17:45pm

I,for one, am getting sick of the media "asking the question" of whether every rape, overdose, murder, or robbery that happens is connected to OWS. For fuck's sake, it's not like crime was invented by a bunch of pacifists arguing for economic equality.

2 Obdicut  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 8:18:33pm

I'm really unclear where the information about the dude is coming from. I saw one report that said that he was saying Obama is the anti-christ. That, to me, indicates either mental illness or the radical end of the pro-life spectrum. From the look of the dude, I'm guessing mental illness.

3 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 8:22:17pm

I'm seeing the powerful diminishing the weak. They have worked their propaganda to make the occupy movement from being favored to maybe less favored. We are owned.

4 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 8:24:47pm

Haven't we pretty much established that any connection between a shooter and an a "criminal event" is in the shooter's twisted mind?

Lone gunmen in this country seem to lack the conspiratorial support they and others need to think they have.

5 Killgore Trout  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 8:25:47pm

re: #1 darthstar

I,for one, am getting sick of the media "asking the question" of whether every rape, overdose, murder, or robbery that happens is connected to OWS. For fuck's sake, it's not like crime was invented by a bunch of pacifists arguing for economic equality.

The camping in urban parks was a very bad idea. It attracts criminals like this guy, homeless, drug addicts, mentally ill people, etc. Some of the crimes, rapes and violence have come from the protesters, some crime has come from people attracted to the camps. In the end these camps are a magnet for crime. They have a serious effect on the local communities and businesses. Human waste, sanitation, crime, vandalism, fire hazard, drug use, etc. These are all real problems. The cost to local businesses and governments is pretty significant and it's the very real reason these camps are being shut down across the country.
This whole thing was a very bad idea.

6 goddamnedfrank  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 8:25:56pm

re: #1 darthstar

I,for one, am getting sick of the media "asking the question" of whether every rape, overdose, murder, or robbery that happens is connected to OWS. For fuck's sake, it's not like crime was invented by a bunch of pacifists arguing for economic equality.

You're obviously in the pocket of Big Hippie and its pro rapey stabbey agenda.

7 William Barnett-Lewis  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 8:28:01pm

re: #5 Killgore Trout

Yes, we know. Dirty hippies blah blah blah.

Are you still that angry about the rats?

8 funky chicken  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 8:28:32pm

Crazy drifter with criminal records in 3 states and no apparent fixed address. If we was at any of the OWS sites it proves he's still smart enough to go to where there are free places to sleep and probably free food that will be shared with him. He is likely a threat to himself and others, so hopefully he will spend some time in a mental hospital getting treatment.

9 albusteve  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 8:30:12pm

re: #7 wlewisiii

Yes, we know. Dirty hippies blah blah blah.

Are you still that angry about the rats?

are you addressing the issues you claim to understand?

10 funky chicken  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 8:31:11pm

re: #5 Killgore Trout

I agree with your post. Hey, they're young and idealistic still. They don't like to believe that here is simply a class of folks who really will harm you for a cheeseburger or a pair of shoes or whatever.

11 darthstar  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 8:31:24pm

re: #5 Killgore Trout

In the end these camps are a magnet for crime.

You know what else is a magnet for crime? Fucking humans. Get rid of them and the problems all go away.

12 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 8:32:11pm

Today's kitteh really seems to be interpreting what I wish these theorists would do.

They (like the GOP candidates) are hang on by a thread and should just curl up and go to sleep.

13 darthstar  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 8:32:19pm

re: #10 funky chicken

I agree with your post. Hey, they're young and idealistic still. They don't like to believe that here is simply a class of folks who really will harm you for a cheeseburger or a pair of shoes or whatever.

They're called elected representatives.

14 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 8:32:26pm

re: #11 darthstar

You know what else is a magnet for crime? Fucking humans. Get rid of them and the problems all go away.

It's true!

:0

15 albusteve  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 8:33:09pm

re: #11 darthstar

You know what else is a magnet for crime? Fucking humans. Get rid of them and the problems all go away.

so you support mass extermination?
LOL
that's how it works these days

16 Killgore Trout  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 8:33:19pm

re: #11 darthstar

You know what else is a magnet for crime? Fucking humans. Get rid of them and the problems all go away.

Hmmm, your proposal appeals to my sensibilities.

17 palomino  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 8:33:33pm

re: #5 Killgore Trout

The camping in urban parks was a very bad idea. It attracts criminals like this guy, homeless, drug addicts, mentally ill people, etc. Some of the crimes, rapes and violence have come from the protesters, some crime has come from people attracted to the camps. In the end these camps are a magnet for crime. They have a serious effect on the local communities and businesses. Human waste, sanitation, crime, vandalism, fire hazard, drug use, etc. These are all real problems. The cost to local businesses and governments is pretty significant and it's the very real reason these camps are being shut down across the country.
This whole thing was a very bad idea.

Aren't these kind of like modern day Hoovervilles? Which I would guess attracted plenty of crime, drug use, unsanitary conditions, etc, and probably ran afoul of the police quite often.

The reason I won't totally condemn OWS, despite its manifest flaws, is that the articulate sane members of the movement are at least complaining about the right things, namely banking practices and economic injustice.

18 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 8:33:34pm

re: #3 Stanley Sea

I'm seeing the powerful diminishing the weak. They have worked their propaganda to make the occupy movement from being favored to maybe less favored. We are owned.

I have only one Owner. I choose not to have more.

We all know what it is that owns me.

:0

19 Obdicut  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 8:34:12pm

re: #11 darthstar

Banking is apparently also a magnet for crime.

And private energy markets.

20 jaunte  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 8:34:54pm

re: #19 Obdicut

But it's such clean, well-groomed crime.

21 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 8:35:56pm

re: #17 palomino

The reason I won't totally condemn OWS, despite its manifest flaws, is that the articulate sane members of the movement are at least complaining about the right things, namely banking practices and economic injustice.

As I Understand It, the articulate and same members are the actual protestors. The rest are hangers-on, opportunitists and partiers. They joined-in after the protestors stayed long enough to give them a place to be.

22 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 8:35:58pm

re: #5 Killgore Trout

The camping in urban parks was a very bad idea. It attracts criminals like this guy,

Well, no. This guy is a nutjob. I think the camping attracts predators who see the campers as a soft target. Lunatic shooters, not so much.

And this particular guy seems to have had no interest in the camp at all.

23 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 8:36:36pm

re: #19 Obdicut

Banking is apparently also a magnet for crime.

And private energy markets.

Addiction, corruption --we are talking about Gambling here.

24 Daniel Ballard  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 8:36:37pm

re: #5 Killgore Trout

Who has tried a better idea of note?

25 freetoken  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 8:37:02pm

re: #20 jaunte

I prefer my criminals in Brooks Brothers.

26 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 8:37:34pm

re: #8 funky chicken

Crazy drifter with criminal records in 3 states and no apparent fixed address. If we was at any of the OWS sites it proves he's still smart enough to go to where there are free places to sleep and probably free food that will be shared with him. He is likely a threat to himself and others, so hopefully he will spend some time in a mental hospital getting treatment.

If I'd just shot at the White House, I would avoid OWS like the plague. Between the cops and the press, not a good place to hang out.

27 Killgore Trout  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 8:39:05pm

re: #17 palomino

Aren't these kind of like modern day Hoovervilles?

Uh, no. There are a few unemployed people and homeless but the activists are fairly well off and young. They can afford to take a few weeks off from their normal responsibilities (whatever those may be) and camp in parks for extended periods of time. Most real unemployed people are trying hard to find jobs, feed their children, keep their housing, etc and don;t have time to hang out in a park with a 24 hour drum circle. These protesters all have homes waiting for them when they leave. It's a hobby/vacation not a serious collection of people having a hard time.

28 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 8:39:11pm

re: #16 Killgore Trout

Hmmm, your proposal appeals to my sensibilities.

See, THIS is not a classic cranky-hippie-hater's response.

Something else is at work here.

29 Killgore Trout  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 8:40:31pm

re: #22 SanFranciscoZionist

Well, no. This guy is a nutjob. I think the camping attracts predators who see the campers as a soft target. Lunatic shooters, not so much.

And this particular guy seems to have had no interest in the camp at all.

He was still there. A nice place to hang out, have a good time and get some free food. There's no ideological connection but he was still in the camps.

30 Big Joe  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 8:40:49pm

re: #12 ggt

Today's kitteh really seems to be interpreting what I wish these theorists would do.

They (like the GOP candidates) are hang on by a thread and should just curl up and go to sleep.

He was going for the catnip on the table and got it. Recreational drugs.

31 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 8:40:50pm

re: #25 freetoken

I prefer my criminals in Brooks Brothers.

My dad wears Brooks Brothers. Surely really upscale banking-type criminals wear something more exclusive?

32 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 8:41:13pm

re: #11 darthstar

You know what else is a magnet for crime? Fucking humans. Get rid of them and the problems all go away.

Seriously.

So much situational outrage. Clear as glass..

33 Charles Johnson  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 8:42:26pm

re: #29 Killgore Trout

He was still there. A nice place to hang out, have a good time and get some free food. There's no ideological connection but he was still in the camps.

Earlier it was announced that a search found no evidence that he was in the camp, and this story confirms that he was NOT in the camp.

34 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 8:42:30pm

re: #29 Killgore Trout

He was still there. A nice place to hang out, have a good time and get some free food. There's no ideological connection but he was still in the camps.

Maybe I'm confused. He was there?

Dumbass! I would have stayed well away.

35 Killgore Trout  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 8:42:57pm

re: #24 Rightwingconspirator

Who has tried a better idea of note?

Hell, the Tea Party was a better idea by comparison. They hijacked their whole damn political party and lasted about 2 years. OWS made such a mess in 6 weeks that no city can afford to tolerate them anymore. It's an epic fail.

36 goddamnedfrank  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 8:43:20pm

re: #33 Charles

Earlier it was announced that a search found no evidence that he was in the camp, and this story confirms that he was NOT in the camp.

Guilt by proximity, or something.

37 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 8:43:26pm

re: #33 Charles

Earlier it was announced that a search found no evidence that he was in the camp, and this story confirms that he was NOT in the camp.

Right, that's what I thought.

38 Charles Johnson  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 8:44:05pm

re: #34 SanFranciscoZionist

Maybe I'm confused. He was there?

Dumbass! I would have stayed well away.

No. He was NOT there. It's now been confirmed by two sources.

Killgore is wrong.

39 sagehen  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 8:44:05pm

re: #31 SanFranciscoZionist

My dad wears Brooks Brothers. Surely really upscale banking-type criminals wear something more exclusive?

Saville Row bespoke.

40 ProGunLiberal  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 8:44:19pm

re: #22 SanFranciscoZionist

All OWS is doing is copying Tahrir Square.

Apparently, our special snowflake KT here thinks protests shouldn't be disruptive at all. Which means nothing gets done.

I'm under alot of stress right now, and am incredibly snappy (as in willing to bite back). In fact, I self-censored here quite a bit.

41 William Barnett-Lewis  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 8:44:50pm

re: #9 albusteve

are you addressing the issues you claim to understand?

re: #9 albusteve

Just in case you care, I'll answer you seriously.

His problem with his "hippie" neighbors who had a lack of intelligent handling of their compost heap lead to a rat infestation and the slaughter of his frogs. His vocabulary in describing them mirrors his hateful diatribes agains the OWS movement. It's very easy to see the reflection of anti-"Marxist Hippie" angst in one case with anti-"Marxist Hippie" sturm und drang against the other.

You? You're a lapdog for whomever is causing the largest amount of chaos at LGF at any given time. IF I started creating as much havoc as tomorrow as KT you'd suddenly be my biggest supporter. But that's ok, Steve. Some of us love you anyway. We even love KT. We just hope he'll get over his hate fest before it does any real damage to him or LGF.

42 Killgore Trout  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 8:45:05pm

re: #33 Charles

Earlier it was announced that a search found no evidence that he was in the camp, and this story confirms that he was NOT in the camp.

ah ok, I didn't catch that....

investigators searched the Occupy D.C. campground near the White House but have found no connection between him and the Occupy protesters, according to three law enforcement officials familiar with the case.

My fist skim through I assumed they searched the camp and didn't find him there.

43 palomino  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 8:45:09pm

re: #27 Killgore Trout

Uh, no. There are a few unemployed people and homeless but the activists are fairly well off and young. They can afford to take a few weeks off from their normal responsibilities (whatever those may be) and camp in parks for extended periods of time. Most real unemployed people are trying hard to find jobs, feed their children, keep their housing, etc and don;t have time to hang out in a park with a 24 hour drum circle. These protesters all have homes waiting for them when they leave. It's a hobby/vacation not a serious collection of people having a hard time.

Do you actually know this based on some data, or is this just what your gut tells you?

You said the campsites attract a lot of criminals, addicts, mentally ill, etc. I would guess that the Hoovervilles did as well. I'm not up on the demographics of the protesters. How can you be so sure none of them are struggling at a time when most Americans are struggling?...you know, worst economy in 80 years and all. Maybe you could post a link.

As for the "real unemployed" we have an effective unemployment rate of around 20% because so many people have given up looking for jobs. Those people often don't have homes to go back to, and if they do they're not sure how much longer they'll be able to keep them.

44 freetoken  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 8:45:28pm

re: #31 SanFranciscoZionist

My dad wears Brooks Brothers. Surely really upscale banking-type criminals wear something more exclusive?

Probably.

I used to wear some BB stuff - I liked that I could go in and size a coat and pants separately for a two-piece, as even at my thinest my "drop" was slightly less than normal (being a bit of a bean pole figure.)

The well bespoken man will of course not buy off the rack. I never had any luck with suits as such, but some custom shirts I had made 20 years ago I still have - they were made that well.

45 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 8:45:48pm

re: #25 freetoken

I prefer my criminals in Brooks Brothers.

less scary.

46 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 8:47:22pm

re: #38 Charles

No. He was NOT there. It's now been confirmed by two sources.

Killgore is wrong.

Thanks. Too many stories all playing out at once.

47 goddamnedfrank  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 8:48:34pm

re: #42 Killgore Trout

My fist skim through I assumed they searched the camp and didn't find him there.

The previous thread showed that you should really stop skimming through and then drawing assumptions.

48 RadicalModerate  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 8:48:42pm

re: #25 freetoken

I prefer my criminals in Brooks Brothers.

Bright orange jumpsuits. With chained stainless-steel bracelet and anklet accessories.

49 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 8:48:43pm

re: #25 freetoken

I prefer my criminals in Brooks Brothers.

Smell better, no body bugs.

50 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 8:50:06pm

re: #44 freetoken

Probably.

I used to wear some BB stuff - I liked that I could go in and size a coat and pants separately for a two-piece, as even at my thinest my "drop" was slightly less than normal (being a bit of a bean pole figure.)

The well bespoken man will of course not buy off the rack. I never had any luck with suits as such, but some custom shirts I had made 20 years ago I still have - they were made that well.

I think my dad likes BB for their Waspy Aura of Quality. He also likes the staff, although, as with everything else, he will go to a great deal of trouble to get a female staffer to help him.

51 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 8:50:22pm

re: #34 SanFranciscoZionist

Maybe I'm confused. He was there?

Dumbass! I would have stayed well away.

He was there, until he wasn't.

52 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 8:50:32pm

re: #41 wlewisiii

dude. yeah.

53 Killgore Trout  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 8:50:50pm

re: #47 goddamnedfrank

The previous thread showed that you should really stop skimming through and then drawing assumptions.

Sorry I didn't catch the nuance of the language. Until this story every news outlet including MSNBC and HuffPoo reported that he was sighted at the camp and the police were searching for him there.

54 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 8:50:56pm

re: #51 ggt

He was there, until he wasn't.

But now he was never there.

55 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 8:51:49pm

re: #40 ProLifeLiberal

All OWS is doing is copying Tahrir Square.

Apparently, our special snowflake KT here thinks protests shouldn't be disruptive at all. Which means nothing gets done.

I'm under alot of stress right now, and am incredibly snappy (as in willing to bite back). In fact, I self-censored here quite a bit.

Productive discussions do not include snarky adjectives describing individual participants.

56 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 8:53:11pm

re: #53 Killgore Trout

Sorry I didn't catch the nuance of the language. Until this story every news outlet including MSNBC and HuffPoo reported that he was sighted at the camp and the police were searching for him there.

You, the investigator of all OWS, is now playing dumb?

Oh, a fucking blog just made me faint.

57 Talking Point Detective  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 8:53:27pm

re: #5 Killgore Trout

The camping in urban parks was a very bad idea. It attracts criminals like this guy, homeless, drug addicts, mentally ill people, etc. Some of the crimes, rapes and violence have come from the protesters, some crime has come from people attracted to the camps. In the end these camps are a magnet for crime. They have a serious effect on the local communities and businesses. Human waste, sanitation, crime, vandalism, fire hazard, drug use, etc. These are all real problems. The cost to local businesses and governments is pretty significant and it's the very real reason these camps are being shut down across the country.
This whole thing was a very bad idea.

So much concern.

58 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 8:53:30pm

re: #44 freetoken

Probably.

I used to wear some BB stuff - I liked that I could go in and size a coat and pants separately for a two-piece, as even at my thinest my "drop" was slightly less than normal (being a bit of a bean pole figure.)

The well bespoken man will of course not buy off the rack. I never had any luck with suits as such, but some custom shirts I had made 20 years ago I still have - they were made that well.

The Best RTW suits still need expert tailoring, IMHO.

59 jaunte  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 8:54:44pm

I read this evening on Twitter that there is a move underway to organize four-hour shifts at OWS/Zuccotti Park.

60 William Barnett-Lewis  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 8:54:50pm

re: #53 Killgore Trout

Hmm. ISTR something about a 24 hour rule here at LGF? Nah, must have been a Marxist Hippie innovation...

61 Killgore Trout  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 8:54:54pm

Outrageous butthurt outbreak!
I have an early morning ahead so I think I'll leave y'all to seethe without me.

62 Talking Point Detective  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 8:55:10pm

re: #53 Killgore Trout

Sorry I didn't catch the nuance of the language. Until this story every news outlet including MSNBC and HuffPoo reported that he was sighted at the camp and the police were searching for him there.

Perhaps if you weren't so busy confirming you biases you wouldn't fail to "catch the nuance of the language" when it doesn't say what you want it to say?

63 Lidane  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 8:55:11pm

re: #3 Stanley Sea

I'm seeing the powerful diminishing the weak. They have worked their propaganda to make the occupy movement from being favored to maybe less favored. We are owned.

Seriously.

If anything, the constant anti-OWS stuff has only reinforced my cynicism. Here were a bunch of people who started off with the admirable goal to raise awareness about income inequality and to protest a lot of real injustices that are going on in this country, and what happens? Concern trolls and wingnuts turned every little goddamn thing into an automatic connection to OWS as a whole and now anyone who points out the income gap and injustice is a horrible human being, and is less than scum.

At this point, I'm convinced nothing will ever change. Both parties will continue to whore themselves out to the 1% at the expense of everyone else. All they have to do is get the wingnuts and concern trolls going and their job is done. Get enough idiots to start blowing the air raid siren over every little thing and people get bogged down in those little things while the top 1% laugh at how stupid people are.

This is why I'm only nominally a Democrat. I vote for the Dems solely because when compared to the Republicans, they're not going to fuck me over quite as badly. But the anti-OWS contingent have served their purpose. By ranting hysterically about every little goddamn thing, they successfully destroyed the issue and turned people against a set of ideas that would have served the interests of more than just the super rich.

64 darthstar  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 8:55:15pm

I hear Al Qaeda's #2 is at OWS.`

65 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 8:55:17pm

re: #50 SanFranciscoZionist

I think my dad likes BB for their Waspy Aura of Quality. He also likes the staff, although, as with everything else, he will go to a great deal of trouble to get a female staffer to help him.

My Dear Ole' Dad quit wearing Brooks Brothers in the 1970's. He said they began to out-price him.

Never got used to inflation.

It wasn't until the late 80's that he had to start replaceing some of the pants he bought in the 1950's from them. I kid you not. He took excellent care of possessions.

66 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 8:55:44pm

re: #54 SanFranciscoZionist

But now he was never there.

Time Travel!

/;)

67 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 8:56:09pm

re: #58 ggt

The Best RTW suits still need expert tailoring, IMHO.

Thing I Will Never Let Happen Again: my husband wearing a rented tux, without getting a tailor to help. He is about five-eight, with the rib-cage of a mastodon. He ended up having a tux rented for him to be in a wedding party once.

Will not happen a second time.

68 William Barnett-Lewis  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 8:56:38pm

re: #59 jaunte

I read this evening on Twitter that there is a move underway to organize four-hour shifts at OWS/Zuccotti Park.

Me likes. I could send them the Army regs for doing guard mount. That would be ... Interesting ... ;)

69 jaunte  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 8:57:06pm

re: #67 SanFranciscoZionist

He is about five-eight, with the rib-cage of a mastodon.

There's a Groucho Marx joke hiding in there somewhere.

70 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 8:57:39pm

re: #60 wlewisiii

Acronym Definition
ISTR International Society for Third-Sector Research
ISTR Internet Security Threat Report (Symantec)
ISTR I Seem To Recall
ISTR I Seem to Remember
ISTR Institute of Safety in Technology and Research (UK)
ISTR It Stands To Reason
ISTR Institute for Science Training and Research
ISTR Interoperability Standards Technical Reports
ISTR Information Security and Testing Research

That would be LGF!

teehee

71 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 8:58:20pm

re: #61 Killgore Trout

Outrageous butthurt outbreak!
I have an early morning ahead so I think I'll leave y'all to seethe without me.

Martyr excuse. You've fucked up the debate and then you run.

72 darthstar  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 8:59:31pm

Also spotted at OWS: Waldo. No more asking where.

73 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 8:59:57pm

re: #67 SanFranciscoZionist

Thing I Will Never Let Happen Again: my husband wearing a rented tux, without getting a tailor to help. He is about five-eight, with the rib-cage of a mastodon. He ended up having a tux rented for him to be in a wedding party once.

Will not happen a second time.

My husband can get away with a rented-tux as long as it is single-breasted. Double-breasted never works.

Luckily, I nixed most types of events that require tuxes long ago. I can't stand them.

We haven't been "required" to attend one in 10 years and we are old enough that all our friends are already married!!!

74 Talking Point Detective  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 9:01:15pm

re: #71 Stanley Sea

Martyr excuse. You've fucked up fail to catch the nuance of the language in the debate and then you run.

Seriously, that was classic. Didn't catch the nuance.

75 Daniel Ballard  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 9:01:17pm

re: #35 Killgore Trout

Less regulation and lowering taxes is not a better idea than re regulating the banks and cutting corporate influence. Disavowing violence stands in stark contrast to Oathkeepers. The recent 60 minutes piece on Congressional insider trading was excellent support on a key OWS concept. We agree its time to get off the lawn. Which may still happen.

The fact they are very visible in those parks worked in their favor. Now that's playing differently. The fact they had some crime means yes, they like the rest of us have crime. OWS camp crime is a ridiculous red herring. One would think these were the first real crimes these parks had seen. I'm safer at OccupyLA all night long than in Central Park or certain areas of Compton at midnight.

76 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 9:01:19pm

re: #63 Lidane

Cheers on that post. It will be re-read and shared. By me at least. (I'm very frustrated now about influence potential)

77 Big Joe  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 9:01:42pm

I don't know if anybody posted it, but the Berkeley gunman wasn't a protester.

KTVU

78 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 9:02:25pm

Killgore, I have to admit it.

Your concern for OWS is getting to me.

You are either trolling or in need of help.

LET . IT . GO.

79 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 9:02:32pm

re: #69 jaunte

There's a Groucho Marx joke hiding in there somewhere.

Seriously. When we first started going out, I was startled by how hard it was to get my arms all the way around him. They invented the phrase 'barrel-chested' for this man.

80 William Barnett-Lewis  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 9:02:41pm

re: #73 ggt

My husband can get away with a rented-tux as long as it is single-breasted. Double-breasted never works.

Luckily, I nixed most types of events that require tuxes long ago. I can't stand them.

We haven't been "required" to attend one in 10 years and we are old enough that all our friends are already married!!!

I always wished I could have gotten all of those kinds of events done when I was in the Army. Dress Blues, especially with saber, blow those silly tuxes away ;) Mess Whites are in another world completely.

81 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 9:03:00pm

re: #72 darthstar

Also spotted at OWS: Waldo. No more asking where.

Is Carmen Sandiego also there?

82 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 9:03:31pm

re: #81 SanFranciscoZionist

Is Carmen Sandiego also there?

Matt Lauer? Or whomever. . .

83 jaunte  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 9:04:59pm

Goodnight all. Sleep time.

84 ProGunLiberal  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 9:05:35pm

Okay, completely off-topic, but doesn't Mitt Romney have a Maronite Lebanese Advisor or something? I'm drawing a name, but I am not sure if it is correct.

85 darthstar  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 9:06:02pm

re: #82 ggt

Matt Lauer? Or whomever. . .

If there's one person on the planet I could give less of a fuck about than Matt Lauer, I haven't heard of him/her.

86 HappyWarrior  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 9:06:06pm

re: #84 ProLifeLiberal

Okay, completely off-topic, but doesn't Mitt Romney have a Maronite Lebanese Advisor or something? I'm drawing a name, but I am not sure if it is correct.

Think I heard that, yeah.

87 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 9:06:35pm

I have never typed then backspaced more then this current trolling situation.

OWS. So weak, but fuck, its taken up our whole online lives.

88 William Barnett-Lewis  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 9:06:37pm

re: #75 Rightwingconspirator

Hey, RWC, hope it's going good. This is OT, but you'll appreciate it. Revolver boy here is joining the 21st century. Found a good deal on a Gen 2 Glock 19 and popped it on layaway.

89 ProGunLiberal  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 9:07:02pm

re: #86 HappyWarrior

What was the name? If it who I think it is, Romney has explaining to do.

90 darthstar  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 9:07:17pm

re: #84 ProLifeLiberal

Okay, completely off-topic, but doesn't Mitt Romney have a Maronite Lebanese Advisor or something? I'm drawing a name, but I am not sure if it is correct.

Yes, and he was involved in a massacre, apparently, but as he's Xian and his victims godless others, nobody who matters gives a shit.

91 HappyWarrior  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 9:07:22pm

So, how long before Breitbart's idiots claim the police are covering for OWS? I haven't participated and probably won't in anything OWS related but the hatred for all things OWS is stupid to me.

92 Interesting Times  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 9:07:27pm

re: #89 ProLifeLiberal

What was the name? If it who I think it is, Romney has explaining to do.

Here you go.

93 HappyWarrior  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 9:07:46pm

re: #89 ProLifeLiberal

What was the name? If it who I think it is, Romney has explaining to do.

That's the problem. I don't know either.

94 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 9:09:56pm

I don't think hippos are cute, but this is a cute picture of a hippo baby

It's not off-topic, because at this point anything is a welcome distraction.

:)

95 ProGunLiberal  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 9:11:04pm

re: #92 publicityStunted

Okay, somehow, I confused him with Michel Aoun. A Maronite who supports the current Hezbollah Government.

96 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 9:11:26pm

re: #85 darthstar

If there's one person on the planet I could give less of a fuck about than Matt Lauer, I haven't heard of him/her.

co-host from one of the morning shows. Did a segment years ago . . . .

97 ProGunLiberal  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 9:11:37pm

re: #94 ggt

I would love to see it, but you have too many http's in there

98 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 9:12:12pm

re: #77 mracb

I don't know if anybody posted it, but the Berkeley gunman wasn't a protester.

KTVU

Along with being a tragedy, however, it couldn't have happened at a worse time. The kids really do not trust the campus police right now, you can see why, and now this happens.

God, I had forgotten about Rosebud Abigail Denovo. That's the shooting they're talking about in 1992. The kid with the machete.

99 HappyWarrior  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 9:13:24pm

re: #92 publicityStunted

Here you go.

That's who I was thinking of.

100 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 9:13:33pm

re: #84 ProLifeLiberal

Okay, completely off-topic, but doesn't Mitt Romney have a Maronite Lebanese Advisor or something? I'm drawing a name, but I am not sure if it is correct.

Walid Phares? That's who Google is suggesting to me, and it makes sense.

101 ProGunLiberal  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 9:15:25pm

re: #100 SanFranciscoZionist

Yeah, somehow, my brain confused him with another class act named Michel Aoun. Who sided with the (at the time) Hezbollah Opposition, and helped orchestrate the overthrow of the March 14th Coalition earlier this year.

I had a Category 4 Derpstorm.

102 darthstar  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 9:16:16pm

Okay...repeats of Burn Notice are on...play nice, everyone.

103 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 9:17:27pm

This article goes on to show that other indicators are way off. Literacy, teen pregnancy, poverty and the disparagement between urban and rural.

I have to cringe when I think of how it will be twisted by "some" news outlets.

Brazil 2010 census shows changing race balance

Women and children from Brazil’s “Roofless Movement” in an empty building they have occupied in Sao Paulo Despite a decade of progress, poverty is still widespread in Brazil

For the first time, non-white people make up the majority of Brazil’s population, according to preliminary results of the 2010 census.

Out of around 191m Brazilians, 91 million identified themselves as white, 82m as mixed race and 15m as black.

Whites fell from 53.7% of the population in 2000 to 47.7% last year.

The once-a-decade census showed rising social indicators across Brazil as a result of economic growth, but also highlighted enduring inequalities.

104 HappyWarrior  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 9:17:41pm

Finally saw the Cain-Libya vid by the way OT but sheesh. I mean sometimes you think you're using hyperbole when you say Obama's policies are opposed because they're Obama's but Cain really supported that thesis at least in Libya it's exactly that for him.

105 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 9:18:24pm

re: #101 ProLifeLiberal

Yeah, somehow, my brain confused him with another class act named Michel Aoun. Who sided with the (at the time) Hezbollah Opposition, and helped orchestrate the overthrow of the March 14th Coalition earlier this year.

I had a Category 4 Derpstorm.

pls explain these players

106 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 9:20:53pm

re: #97 ProLifeLiberal

I would love to see it, but you have too many http's in there

WHAT?

Here, try this.

107 ProGunLiberal  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 9:21:07pm

One of my Muslim Friends just showed this link on Facebook.

Teacher Unloads on Special Needs Student

This pissed me off.

108 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 9:22:02pm

re: #106 ggt

WHAT?

Here, try this.

It's a perfect mini.

109 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 9:22:37pm

re: #107 ProLifeLiberal

One of my Muslim Friends just showed this link on Facebook.

Teacher Unloads on Special Needs Student

This pissed me off.

You should have heard my college friend with the two special needs kids!

110 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 9:24:10pm

re: #81 SanFranciscoZionist

Is Carmen Sandiego also there?

Of course she is. Who do you think is responsible for all the thefts?

If you support Occupy Wall Street, then you're effectively in favor of Carmen Sandiego stealing the Brooklyn Bridge!!1

111 HappyWarrior  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 9:27:10pm

re: #107 ProLifeLiberal

One of my Muslim Friends just showed this link on Facebook.

Teacher Unloads on Special Needs Student

This pissed me off.

what a jerk. I remember having my hand grabbed because I couldn't do long division in third grade. I told my parents and they were pissed but we didn't pursue it any further.

112 ProGunLiberal  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 9:27:23pm

re: #105 Stanley Sea

Before January this year, the anti-Syrian March 14 Movement was the government. However, due to the machinations of this Michel Aoun character, he got a party to switch sides, giving the government to the Pro-Syrian March 14th Movement.

Michel Aoun is also known as a guy who has got support from Saddam Hussein during the Lebanese Civil War, and attacked other Christian Militias. He's generally a power-hungry piece of work.

113 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 9:28:11pm

re: #107 ProLifeLiberal

One of my Muslim Friends just showed this link on Facebook.

Teacher Unloads on Special Needs Student

This pissed me off.

This should make you feel a bit better:

A nanny who suffered extensive burns when, she said, a relative of ousted Libyan leader Moammar Gadhafi's family poured boiling water on her, may be discharged from a hospital in Malta as early as next week. She has been receiving medial treatment there since she arrived from Libya in September.

CNN journalists came upon domestic worker Shweyga Mullah in August in the plush home of Gadhafi's son Hannibal Gadhafi after anti-Gadhafi forces overran Tripoli. Mullah, in her 20s, was sitting on the floor of an empty building.

She worked as a nanny for two of the couple's children. When she couldn't keep one from crying, and refused to beat the child, she said Aline Gadhafi poured the boiling water on her head.

Now, after weeks of treatment, hospital officials say Mullah continues to make good progress. Since she arrived in Malta on September 15, she's had two different sets of surgical procedures.

One surgery, in late September, was focused on her torso. Doctors performed a skin graft on the front of her torso to help treatment in the burns.

The second procedure was on October 15 to help with burns on her scalp area. Doctors haven't done a skin graft there because they are wanting to try and allow some of the hair follicles to grow back and those that are there to survive. It's something Mullah has asked for. So the procedure was really aimed at cleaning the wounds and promoting healing.

114 ProGunLiberal  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 9:31:22pm

re: #113 Dark_Falcon

That is good to hear. It's a good start on a very long road to recovery.

Meanwhile, defected Syrian Soldiers committed an attack on a base outside Damascus today. Strange things are happening, between that, Turkey threatening to cut off power, and Abdullah II in Jordan calling for Assad to step aside.

115 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 9:34:36pm

re: #113 Dark_Falcon

This should make you feel a bit better:

Oh, please Page that!

I'm so glad this woman found compassionate help from the world.

116 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 9:35:03pm

Also Good News: The Veteran's Job part of Obama;s package (which was introduced without an attached tax increase) has passed the House. Not a great bill, but a useful and needed one that deserved to pass.

117 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 9:35:30pm

re: #108 SanFranciscoZionist

It's a perfect mini.

I like his expression. Projecting human emotion on this one is easy.

118 William Barnett-Lewis  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 9:40:25pm

re: #116 Dark_Falcon

Not a great bill, but a useful and needed one that deserved to pass.

This part I'll agree with. Should have been bigger and it should have had additional revenue to pay for it. But our vets are desperate for any help right now and this is a step in the right direction.

119 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 9:41:38pm

OMG!

120 ProGunLiberal  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 9:42:42pm

re: #115 ggt

Done.

121 William Barnett-Lewis  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 9:43:03pm

re: #114 ProLifeLiberal

I'm finding it ... I'm not sure - Interesting? Odd? - that the monarchs seem to be maintaining power as are the theocratic authoritarians. OTOH, the secular dictators are getting the boot. Is this simply setting the stage for more theocracy or more monarchy?

Your thoughts?

122 makeitstop  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 9:44:02pm

re: #27 Killgore Trout

Uh, no. There are a few unemployed people and homeless but the activists are fairly well off and young. They can afford to take a few weeks off from their normal responsibilities (whatever those may be) and camp in parks for extended periods of time. Most real unemployed people are trying hard to find jobs, feed their children, keep their housing, etc and don;t have time to hang out in a park with a 24 hour drum circle. These protesters all have homes waiting for them when they leave. It's a hobby/vacation not a serious collection of people having a hard time.

Armchair analysis.

There's no way you can swing that broad a brush. I know working people - with real jobs, mind you - who visit Zuccotti when they can, 2-3 times a week, whenever they can get there and show support. And the fact that those people are going to Zuccotti completely scrambles your 'they're all well-off' meme.

You refuse to go to Occupy. That's fine. But you can't possibly dismiss them all as trust fund dilettantes. You're completely ignoring the working people that are there - and they are there.

123 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 9:44:03pm

re: #119 ggt

OMG!

Yikes.

124 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 9:44:51pm

re: #120 ProLifeLiberal

Done.

Why would you Post in the Pages an article about a topic that DF just highlighted and one I asked him to Page?

125 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 9:45:09pm

re: #115 ggt

Oh, please Page that!

I'm so glad this woman found compassionate help from the world.


Your Wish is My Command.

126 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 9:45:34pm

re: #111 HappyWarrior

what a jerk. I remember having my hand grabbed because I couldn't do long division in third grade. I told my parents and they were pissed but we didn't pursue it any further.

Sounds like normal Catholic School from my generation . . .

127 ProGunLiberal  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 9:46:10pm

re: #121 wlewisiii

It is odd in many ways. However, Tunisia shows that these can work out.

Also, Morocco did do some heavy reforms, and Abdullah II has stated his intent of doing the same. The Gulf Nations will continue to be an issue however, and Saudi Arabia will continue to pump out it's Salafist bile. Which is making trouble for the Copts in Egypt, and making Christians in Syria scared.

128 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 9:46:55pm

re: #123 SanFranciscoZionist

Yikes.

Humans can be so strange. With me, it's be the "Tell Tale Freezer" --even if it was in a Storage Unit.

129 ProGunLiberal  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 9:47:29pm

re: #124 ggt

Because I am overly spastic.

I'll delete it. Sorry to you and DF.

130 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 9:48:31pm

re: #129 ProLifeLiberal

Because I am overly spastic.

I'll delete it. Sorry to you and DF.

Just wondering. I'm glad it's posted, nevertheless.

I got a little confused there for a moment, thought I got my Lizards mixed-up.

131 makeitstop  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 9:49:18pm

re: #43 palomino

You said the campsites attract a lot of criminals, addicts, mentally ill, etc.

Good point.

Are the camps filled with crazy people and criminals and addicts, or are they full of trust-fund Marxists?

132 William Barnett-Lewis  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 9:49:35pm

re: #127 ProLifeLiberal

It is odd in many ways. However, Tunisia shows that these can work out.

Also, Morocco did do some heavy reforms, and Abdullah II has stated his intent of doing the same. The Gulf Nations will continue to be an issue however, and Saudi Arabia will continue to pump out it's Salafist bile. Which is making trouble for the Copts in Egypt, and making Christians in Syria scared.

There is a large irony in that the farther from Rome certain Christians are, the saner they are. Perhaps there is something similar with Mecca?

133 ProGunLiberal  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 9:49:42pm

re: #130 ggt

And, I found you can't delete your own page.

In compensation, I tweeted and +1ed his.

134 Interesting Times  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 9:50:23pm

re: #133 ProLifeLiberal

And, I found you can't delete your own page.

You can't "delete"-delete it, but you can set to "hidden", which means it won't be visible to anyone else. As per the LGF dashboard.

135 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 9:50:42pm

I saw Condi Rice speak about her book yesterday in the City.

She talked about the importance of reform before people protest. The topic was the Middle East, but she was specifically looking at someone in the audience when she said it.

Being with the poor folk in the back, I couldn't see to whom she was staring. I'd love to know . .

teehee

136 ProGunLiberal  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 9:53:13pm

re: #132 wlewisiii

True, except that the Salafis aren't from Mecca. They come from the interior between the Hijaz and the Persian Gulf. They haven't treated mainline Sunnis that well either. They still destroy Sunni sites they see as "idolatrous."

The Salafis can be reasonably described as a much of back-water utzballs that found money (oil), and started spewing their perversion.

137 lostlakehiker  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 9:53:17pm

re: #17 palomino

Aren't these kind of like modern day Hoovervilles? Which I would guess attracted plenty of crime, drug use, unsanitary conditions, etc, and probably ran afoul of the police quite often.

The reason I won't totally condemn OWS, despite its manifest flaws, is that the articulate sane members of the movement are at least complaining about the right things, namely banking practices and economic injustice.

OWS has just nothing in common with Hoovervilles. The people attending them, overwhelmingly, have their own housing. Most own far more than the middle class of 1930 did. The Hoovervilles weren't a political movement's construction, but what you get when 25% of the country is out of work and can't pay the mortgage or the rent and has nothing to fall back on.

As to economic injustice, our attempts at reform of Wall Street haven't done anything about the root of the problem: intertwined government and corporate management, feeding each other inside tips, trading on them, writing the regulations that will have just the loophole they need, and so forth. Bouncing back and forth between government and business, getting huge paydays for almost no real work. Small and interlocked boards of directors who aren't even answerable to shareholders, much less to any wider public. And we're not just talking Newt Gingrich here. There's some with D's.

138 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 9:54:14pm

re: #129 ProLifeLiberal

Because I am overly spastic.

I'll delete it. Sorry to you and DF.

Apology accepted.

139 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 9:54:49pm

re: #137 lostlakehiker

intertwined government and corporate management,

Help me here with the undefined.

Is that not an aspect of (fascism)?

Did it help the trains run on time?

140 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 9:55:13pm

re: #136 ProLifeLiberal

True, except that the Salafis aren't from Mecca. They come from the interior between the Hijaz and the Persian Gulf. They haven't treated mainline Sunnis that well either. They still destroy Sunni sites they see as "idolatrous."

The Salafis can be reasonably described as a much of back-water utzballs that found money (oil), and started spewing their perversion.

So they're an evil version of the Beverly Hillbillies, eh? :)

141 William Barnett-Lewis  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 9:55:40pm

re: #135 ggt

I saw Condi Rice speak about her book yesterday in the City.

She talked about the importance of reform before people protest. The topic was the Middle East, but she was specifically looking at someone in the audience when she said it.

Being with the poor folk in the back, I couldn't see to whom she was staring. I'd love to know . .

teehee

Yet reform never, I say this again with emphasis - NEVER - happens before protest. Condi has come across as a smart woman to many but a very long time ago she signed on with the enemy team. And for that reason, I will always pity her. She could have been great; instead she willing chose to be just another tool. And that is a true loss for America.

142 ProGunLiberal  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 9:56:45pm

re: #136 ProLifeLiberal

Actually, a Muslim Student Publication at Berkeley outright called them backwater.

143 William Barnett-Lewis  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 9:57:15pm

re: #136 ProLifeLiberal

True, except that the Salafis aren't from Mecca. They come from the interior between the Hijaz and the Persian Gulf. They haven't treated mainline Sunnis that well either. They still destroy Sunni sites they see as "idolatrous."

The Salafis can be reasonably described as a much of back-water utzballs that found money (oil), and started spewing their perversion.

Err... "rednecks"?

(grinning, ducking and running like a bat out of hell...)

144 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 9:57:50pm

re: #141 wlewisiii

Yet reform never, I say this again with emphasis - NEVER - happens before protest. Condi has come across as a smart woman to many but a very long time ago she signed on with the enemy team. And for that reason, I will always pity her. She could have been great; instead she willing chose to be just another tool. And that is a true loss for America.

Perhaps not. She seems happy with the path she has chosen.

I don't pity her in the least.

I don't know how history will judge her, nor do we know how much damage could have been done with her there to challenge Dick Cheney et al .

I also think it is interesting that her mentor was Madeline Albright's father.

145 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 9:59:08pm

re: #140 Dark_Falcon

So they're an evil version of the Beverly Hillbillies, eh? :)

Evil and ostentatiously pious. But yes, that actually sort of works as a comparison.

146 William Barnett-Lewis  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 9:59:16pm

re: #144 ggt

I'll put this in the "agree to disagree" pile, ok?

147 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 9:59:48pm

re: #131 makeitstop

Good point.

Are the camps filled with crazy people and criminals and addicts, or are they full of trust-fund Marxists?

Whichever sells airtime better.

/kidding (mostly)

148 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 10:00:48pm

Though OWS does have some malefactors in its ranks, that cannot be denied (though they do not define the protests as a whole):

SEATTLE

Police used pepper spray and arrested at least six people Tuesday night after confrontations with demonstrators who did not heed officers' calls to clear city streets.

The group marched from Seattle Central Community College to downtown Belltown, blocking traffic, CNN affiliate KCPQ said.

Police told the protesters to get on the sidewalk.

"At one point, a 17-year-old female suspect swung a stick at an officer but failed to strike him," a police statement said, according to KCPQ. "As officers moved in to arrest the female suspect, the officers were hindered in their efforts. Officers deployed pepper spray to move subjects away from them so they could affect the arrest of the female suspect."

The protesters then staged a sit-in, blocking another intersection during rush hour. Police used pepper spray once again to disperse the demonstrators, CNN affiliate KING said.

"We condemn the outrageous behavior of the SPD in response to civil disobedience, a peaceful and time honored form of political protest," Occupy Seattle said in a statement. It said that among those hurt were an 84-year-old woman, a priest and a pregnant woman.

If you support someone who took a swing at a cop, you are seriously in the wrong.

149 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 10:01:01pm

re: #47 goddamnedfrank

The previous thread last month and a half showed that you should really stop skimming through and then drawing assumptions.

fxd

150 makeitstop  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 10:01:13pm

re: #147 Dark_Falcon

Whichever sells airtime better.

/kidding (mostly)

Kinda swings back and forth, doesn't it?

151 Lidane  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 10:01:47pm

re: #122 makeitstop

It doesn't matter.

The wingnuts and useful idiot anti-OWS concern trolls have already done their job, just like they were supposed to. They allowed themselves to get manipulated into braying and bleating about every little goddamn thing and turning it into a crisis, and now the well is truly poisoned. There's no coming back from it now.

What should have been a positive movement to raise awareness of income inequality and the very real injustices in this country has become a means of distraction. The powers that be have successfully pushed the idiots and rubes into crying about every little thing to distract them from the very real issues that OWS was meant to highlight in the first place.

Nothing's going to change. The system will go on as it always has. At this point, it's all a waste. And it's thanks to the idiots, wingnuts, and concern trolls who let themselves fall right into the trap that was set for them.

152 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 10:02:58pm

re: #151 Lidane

Nothing's going to change.

Humans will always be Humans.

153 ProGunLiberal  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 10:03:08pm

re: #140 Dark_Falcon

re: #143 wlewisiii

Yeah, essentially.

Take the Southern Baptists Convention, add in the violence of the First Crusade and you have this shitstorm. SFZ makes another parallel, and I have found that many Southern Baptists I met a weird experience. (I couldn't have lunch with female friends from church (back a year or two ago) without a male "chaperone")

I've said that the Southern Baptist Church is like Saudi Arabia, except Buttshorts instead of Burqas. And I have NEVER seen the latter in person.

Edit: Thanks for the Edit Option, Charles!! :D

154 makeitstop  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 10:03:33pm

re: #148 Dark_Falcon

Though OWS does have some malefactors in its ranks, that cannot be denied (though they do not define the protests as a whole):

If you support someone who took a swing at a cop, you are seriously in the wrong.

That part you bolded was the subject of discussion downstairs. There's another report that disputes the timeline of the pepper spray being used and the 'attacking girl.'

155 makeitstop  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 10:05:32pm

re: #151 Lidane

It doesn't matter.

The wingnuts and useful idiot anti-OWS concern trolls have already done their job, just like they were supposed to. They allowed themselves to get manipulated into braying and bleating about every little goddamn thing and turning it into a crisis, and now the well is truly poisoned. There's no coming back from it now.

What should have been a positive movement to raise awareness of income inequality and the very real injustices in this country has become a means of distraction. The powers that be have successfully pushed the idiots and rubes into crying about every little thing to distract them from the very real issues that OWS was meant to highlight in the first place.

Nothing's going to change. The system will go on as it always has. At this point, it's all a waste. And it's thanks to the idiots, wingnuts, and concern trolls who let themselves fall right into the trap that was set for them.

You're bumming me out, but I can't help but agree with you.

156 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 10:06:02pm

re: #154 makeitstop

That part you bolded was the subject of discussion downstairs. There's another report that disputes the timeline of the pepper spray being used and the 'attacking girl.'

I don't get the idea of camping in tents en masse.

It sounds cool, but I can't think of anytime in history in which groups of people (no matter how like minded) could get along peaceably without organization and some sort of civilization.

There has to be a code of conduct --Roberts Rules, English Common Law, a tribal chief -otherwise chaos ensues.

157 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 10:07:54pm

re: #153 ProLifeLiberal

re: #143 wlewisiii

Yeah, essentially.

Take the Southern Baptists Convention, add in the violence of the First Crusade and you have this shitstorm. SFZ makes another parallel, and I have found that many Southern Baptists I met a weird experience. (I couldn't have lunch with female friends from church (back a year or two ago) without a male "chaperone")

I've said that the Southern Baptist Church is like Saudi Arabia, except Buttshorts instead of Burqas. And I have NEVER seen the latter in person.

Edit: Thanks for the Edit Option, Charles!! :D

Sounds more like Independent Fundamental Baptists. Although, there are about a billion different Baptist Conventions, so...

158 William Barnett-Lewis  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 10:08:08pm

re: #148 Dark_Falcon

If you support someone who took a swing at a cop, you are seriously in the wrong.

Not sure I can make that blanket statement, DF. I have been a cop (MP) and I've known a damn large number of good cops and a much smaller number of bad cops. But the damage done by that smaller number is so out of proportion to that small number that I am left wondering about the true story every time I read of the possibility of the abuse of power under cover of authority. It's a terribly easy vice to fall into. While training National Guard MP's for service in the Balkans I saw things than made me instantly believe the worst possible interpretations of Abu Ghraib. Take it as you will.

159 Lidane  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 10:09:03pm

re: #155 makeitstop

You're bumming me out, but I can't help but agree with you.

Facing reality is always depressing.

Still, at least admitting that the useful idiot concern trolls and wingnuts have done the job they were meant to do and have destroyed the valid issues that OWS was meant to highlight is stragely freeing. Knowing that nothing will change, and that the entire thing is pointless makes it easier to read through all the concern trolling around here about OWS.

160 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 10:09:11pm

re: #153 ProLifeLiberal

re: #143 wlewisiii

Yeah, essentially.

Take the Southern Baptists Convention, add in the violence of the First Crusade Crusader Era and you have this shitstorm. SFZ makes another parallel, and I have found that many Southern Baptists I met a weird experience. (I couldn't have lunch with female friends from church (back a year or two ago) without a male "chaperone")

I've said that the Southern Baptist Church is like Saudi Arabia, except Buttshorts instead of Burqas. And I have NEVER seen the latter in person.

Edit: Thanks for the Edit Option, Charles!! :D

Slight edit. The Muslim armies committed atrocities as well and both sides committed such wrongs throughout the period. Your point is still sound, of course.

161 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 10:10:11pm

re: #148 Dark_Falcon

If you support someone who took a swing at a cop, you are seriously in the wrong.

And who supports that, in your opinion?

162 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 10:11:35pm

re: #159 Lidane

Facing reality is always depressing.

Still, at least admitting that the useful idiot concern trolls and wingnuts have done the job they were meant to do and have destroyed the valid issues that OWS was meant to highlight is stragely freeing. Knowing that nothing will change, and that the entire thing is pointless makes it easier to read through all the concern trolling around here about OWS.

Not necessarily.

There will be change if people educate themselves. THat has little to do with government, wall street or OWS.

IMHO, it starts with people NOT signing on the dotted line.

None of this would have happened if people didn't buy homes they couldn't afford.

163 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 10:11:56pm

re: #160 Dark_Falcon

Slight edit. The Muslim armies committed atrocities as well and both sides committed such wrongs throughout the period. Your point is still sound, of course.

MBF edit wasn't necessary.

Muslims aren't Christian. SBC is.

164 palomino  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 10:12:08pm

re: #137 lostlakehiker

OWS has just nothing in common with Hoovervilles. The people attending them, overwhelmingly, have their own housing. Most own far more than the middle class of 1930 did. The Hoovervilles weren't a political movement's construction, but what you get when 25% of the country is out of work and can't pay the mortgage or the rent and has nothing to fall back on.

Maybe you haven't noticed, but things are pretty bad right now. We have a 20% effective unemployment rate. As for mortgage and rent, I seem to remember something about a bubble that burst and a resulting crisis. Maybe you forgot about it. You seem to be implying that since people aren't suffering as much as they did in the 1930's that there would be no organic reason for outdoor camps among the increasing ranks of homeless and destitute.

I'll ask again for the links that show the demographics of the outdoor campers. Are you sure they don't include a lot of people who are economically fucked right now?

My comparison to Hoovervilles was based upon the supposition that outdoor camps probably attracted unsavory elements, such as the mentally ill and drug users, other criminals, etc. Hoovervilles had some such activity, but don't deserve blanket condmnation therefor.

The notion that there was nothing political about Hoovervilles is pretty much refuted by the name they were given. Most of their residents probably blamed Hoover as he lost a historic landslide in 1932. Moreover, the most successful period for socialist and communist recruitment in the US was the Depression. Homeless people standing around trash can fires probably played a role. Point is, both situations had political elements.

165 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 10:12:16pm

re: #158 wlewisiii

Not sure I can make that blanket statement, DF. I have been a cop (MP) and I've known a damn large number of good cops and a much smaller number of bad cops. But the damage done by that smaller number is so out of proportion to that small number that I am left wondering about the true story every time I read of the possibility of the abuse of power under cover of authority. It's a terribly easy vice to fall into. While training National Guard MP's for service in the Balkans I saw things than made me instantly believe the worst possible interpretations of Abu Ghraib. Take it as you will.

I hear you, but this doesn't look like that to me. This person took a swing at a cop, and that does merit arrest. There was no "police riot" here. The cops used pepper spray because it incapacitates a part of a crowd without actually inflicting serious injury, as police batons are capable of doing.

166 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 10:12:29pm

re: #161 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

And who supports that, in your opinion?

Frankly, I do.

Attacking law enforcement violently will not work in your favor. Unless you are seriously fearful of your life or the life of another -- don't do it.

167 ProGunLiberal  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 10:12:33pm

re: #157 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

No, the Church I was at was definitely part of the Southern Baptist Convention.

I'm positive of it.

re: #160 Dark_Falcon

Don't remind me of that nutjob. He was a special sort of crazy, who might be partially to blame for the start of the Crusades.

I'm thinking of the Sack of Jerusalem during the first mostly. Muslims certainly committed wrong, but the Catholics won the Batshit contest at the time.

168 makeitstop  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 10:13:34pm

re: #156 ggt

I don't get the idea of camping in tents en masse.

It sounds cool, but I can't think of anytime in history in which groups of people (no matter how like minded) could get along peaceably without organization and some sort of civilization.

There has to be a code of conduct --Roberts Rules, English Common Law, a tribal cheif -otherwise chaos ensues.

But that's another mis-characterization - that there was 'no organization.' Lidane is right - the constant push of the anti-OWS mob has changed the terms of the discussion, and the memes have taken hold. Those people have been repeating over and over and over that these camps are Lord Of The Flies.

People were being fed every day at Zuccotti. There was a constant web presence. There was a library. All these things require a level of organization or they just wouldn't work.

And who do you think would get more attention - 8 or 900 people in a park, or a small percentage of those people holding a press conference in New York City? It's not even close.

169 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 10:14:43pm

re: #162 ggt

Not necessarily.

There will be change if people educate themselves. THat has little to do with government, wall street or OWS.

IMHO, it starts with people NOT signing on the dotted line.

None of this would have happened if people didn't buy homes they couldn't afford.

I don't think so. Fraud is supposed to be illegal.

At least, when the little guy does it.

That said, I have very little sympathy for the keep-up-with-the-jones suburb and exurbities with something to prove, showing off their refi possessions.

170 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 10:15:09pm

re: #168 makeitstop

But that's another mis-characterization - that there was 'no organization.' Lidane is right - the constant push of the anti-OWS mob has changed the terms of the discussion, and the memes have taken hold. Those people have been repeating over and over and over that these camps are Lord Of The Flies.

People were being fed every day at Zuccotti. There was a constant web presence. There was a library. All these things require a level of organization or they just wouldn't work.

And who do you think would get more attention - 8 or 900 people in a park, or a small percentage of those people holding a press conference in New York City? It's not even close.

I understand what you are saying. And I agree, the MSM is not covering it properly --peace doesn't sell ads.

171 William Barnett-Lewis  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 10:15:19pm

re: #162 ggt

Not necessarily.

There will be change if people educate themselves. THat has little to do with government, wall street or OWS.

IMHO, it starts with people NOT signing on the dotted line.

None of this would have happened if people didn't buy homes they couldn't afford.

As far as that goes, that's true. But when you ask some one you trust their opinion and they lie to you? Many people trusted the bank to say "Yes" or "No" to their loans and presumed that when the bank said "Yes" that meant they had the ability to pay what was owed. And often enough they did - at that exact moment. But things change and the banks don't want to have to remember their own culpability, do they?

172 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 10:16:34pm

re: #166 ggt

Frankly, I do.

Attacking law enforcement violently will not work in your favor. Unless you are seriously fearful of your life or the life of another -- don't do it.

You support taking a swing at a cop?

173 Lidane  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 10:19:40pm

re: #162 ggt

You're looking at the issue too narrowly. It's not about the housing crisis.

The fact is, the wingnuts and useful idiot anti-OWS concern trolls perfectly dispensed the propaganda they were fed. They dutifully bleated and brayed about every single isolated negative incident and poisoned the well against the whole concept of OWS, and against the valid issues that led to the protests in the first place. The terms of the debate have changed.

Just look around. The anti-OWS propaganda is simple. Anyone who supports OWS or the ideas behind it supports rape. They support attacking cops, or taking a shit in public, or doing whatever negative things that have been highlighted these past weeks. It's no longer about income inequality or injustice. It's now the equivalent of asking anyone who might support OWS when they stopped beating their kids or their wife.

What's the point? There's no real reason to bother with this shit anymore. Just vote for whoever is going to fuck you over to a lesser degree and go on with your life. Clearly, speaking out or protesting has no effect, and just ends up with the well being poisoned.

174 William Barnett-Lewis  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 10:21:01pm

re: #172 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

You support taking a swing at a cop?

Nice try at the trap.

I have been a cop and I have taken a swing at cops. Deal with it.

175 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 10:21:48pm

re: #169 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

I don't think so. Fraud is supposed to be illegal.

At least, when the little guy does it.

That said, I have very little sympathy for the keep-up-with-the-jones suburb and exurbities with something to prove, showing off their refi possessions.

Neither do I, they signed on the dotted line. It's the ARM's and refi's with inflated values, IIRC that caused most of the problems. . .

I read in one of the articles on my piles that the majority of subprime loans made to those the Fannie and Freddie target buyers are not in default --oh wait. I think I remember which one . . .

But the affordability mission does not explain the vast majority of the GSEs’ credit woes. (See Figure 3)
The $100 billion of subprime securities in portfolio, while astonishing in nominal terms, is roughly 2% of the combined firms’ $5 trillion credit ex- posure. And within the guaranty business, subprime exposure is actu- ally quite modest. At Freddie, for example, only 4% of the single-family mortgage credit book is tied to borrowers with FICO scores below 620.
Moreover, the very worst performing GSE loans (that is, the loans where losses are the greatest multiple of original forecasts) were made to prime borrowers, not subprime. Again using Freddie as an example, both the “Alt-A” and “Inter- est Only” portfolios are already facing serious delinquencies of 11% and 16%, respectively, despite having solidly prime average borrower FICO scores of 722 and 720.5 These were market share-driven loans made to people with good credit; they were not mission-driven loans made to people with bad credit.

176 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 10:22:31pm

re: #172 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

You support taking a swing at a cop?

NO, I misread your question.

177 goddamnedfrank  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 10:22:40pm

re: #165 Dark_Falcon

The cops used pepper spray because it incapacitates a part of a crowd without actually inflicting serious injury, as police batons are capable of doing.

Sure doesn't look nice when applied to an 84 year old woman.

Her story.

178 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 10:24:45pm

re: #174 wlewisiii

Nice try at the trap.

I have been a cop and I have taken a swing at cops. Deal with it.

What trap?

DF said anyone who supports taking a swing at a cop is in the wrong. The question was, "and who supports that, in [his] opinion."

Ggt pretty clearly misread the post and answered with "frankly, I do +..." (obviously, she doesn't.)

Sorry, but I don't know where your comment is coming from.

179 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 10:25:28pm

re: #177 goddamnedfrank

Sure doesn't look nice when applied to an 84 year old woman.

Her story.

Pepper spray was for her own good!!

180 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 10:25:34pm

re: #173 Lidane

Just vote for whoever is going to fuck you over to a lesser degree and go on with your life.

I'm not sure it has ever been any different.

From 1776 on . . .

181 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 10:27:01pm

OhCrap --

Did I tell you that we are thinking of changing Bother Puppy's name to Damnit! Puppy?

:)

182 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 10:27:40pm

re: #163 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

MBF edit wasn't necessary.

Muslims aren't Christian. SBC is.

Saudi Arabia is though, and think they're who we're still trying to describe.

Unless I lost a loop somewhere.

183 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 10:29:08pm

re: #182 SanFranciscoZionist

Saudi Arabia is though, and think they're who we're still trying to describe.

Unless I lost a loop somewhere.

Actually, I think its a woven topic. There are sekrit encrypted messages in the weft.

/:0

184 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 10:29:34pm

re: #175 ggt

Neither do I, they signed on the dotted line. It's the ARM's and refi's with inflated values, IIRC that caused most of the problems. . .

That's one part of it. The derivatives and "credit default swap" mess was another.

185 Kragar  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 10:29:43pm

re: #183 ggt

Actually, I think its a woven topic. There are sekrit encrypted messages in the weft.

/:0


FNORD FNORD

186 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 10:30:11pm

re: #185 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)


FNORD FNORD

My enigma machine is in for repairs.

187 ProGunLiberal  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 10:32:48pm

re: #182 SanFranciscoZionist

No, you are correct. There is no loop.

re: #181 ggt

What did he/she do?

188 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 10:33:15pm

re: #184 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

That's one part of it. The derivatives and "credit default swap" mess was another.

The ARM's and Refi's WERE the MBS - bundled Mortgage Backed Securites sold as derivatives --no?

The majority of buyers had good credit scores, but the loans were untenable. People who should have known better were betting on the increase or stability of the price of their home as were Wall Street and the Government Regulators.

Everyone gambled and lost this one.

189 William Barnett-Lewis  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 10:33:37pm

G'night all. Till the 'morrow.

190 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 10:34:31pm

re: #187 ProLifeLiberal

No, you are correct. There is no loop.

re: #181 ggt

What did he/she do?

He's just old enough and smart enough to figure out how to manipulate his environment and the people in it.

Causing us to step up to the plate --like a human toddler.

so frustrating.

191 Cheechako  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 10:34:51pm

re: #173 Lidane


I agree with you 100%. The original message of corruption within the banking community along with almost no government over-site has been lost and buried. It was clear from the beginning the ranting and raving by the talk show blubber mouths would turn the image of the OWS into being the "bad guys" by any means possible. It wasn't hard to see that the talk show blubber mouths, who are all part of the 1%, had a lot to loose if the messages of OWs were able to take root and grow. Remember they're probably all millionaires, pushing everyone into buying gold to keep the price up to protect their own investments.

Unfortunately OWS is dead. I just "hope" the messages remain alive and another, more organized vehicle grows in its place to give rebirth to the ideas.

192 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 10:35:00pm

re: #181 ggt

OhCrap --

Did I tell you that we are thinking of changing Bother Puppy's name to Damnit! Puppy?

:)

I did read that earlier! I will see Big Puppy tomorrow. I will definitely snap a photo of her.

My bff has a very sweet pit mix I call Puppygirl. She doesn't answer to "Puppygirl", but it doesn't matter since she does answer to anything that sounds even vaguely loving and approving. So cute!

193 ProGunLiberal  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 10:36:51pm

re: #190 ggt

Oh, I think I might have a story tomorrow.

194 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 10:37:13pm

re: #193 ProLifeLiberal

Oh, I think I might have a story tomorrow.

about what?

195 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 10:37:48pm

re: #192 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

I will definitely snap a photo of her.

Promises! Promises . . . .

:0

196 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 10:38:15pm

re: #168 makeitstop

But that's another mis-characterization - that there was 'no organization.' Lidane is right - the constant push of the anti-OWS mob has changed the terms of the discussion, and the memes have taken hold. Those people have been repeating over and over and over that these camps are Lord Of The Flies.

People were being fed every day at Zuccotti. There was a constant web presence. There was a library. All these things require a level of organization or they just wouldn't work.

And who do you think would get more attention - 8 or 900 people in a park, or a small percentage of those people holding a press conference in New York City? It's not even close.

At the same time, speculation about exactly who the organizers are, and to what extent they have to be responsible for the actions of people in the group often proves controversial.

I dunno. One of the problems we're having in this disussion is that actually characterizing the group or what it is doing has proven difficult.

197 makeitstop  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 10:38:36pm

re: #188 ggt

The ARM's and Refi's WERE the MBS - bundled Mortgage Backed Securites sold as derivatives --no?

The majority of buyers had good credit scores, but the loans were untenable. People who should have known better were betting on the increase or stability of the price of their home as were Wall Street and the Government Regulators.

Everyone gambled and lost this one.

Thanks to my wife (the smart one), we went the other way.

The bank approved us for - and really pitched us hard to take - a million dollar mortgage. We ended up finding a house that costs under $300K and didn't go crazy.

It was hard not to go crazy, with the bank offering you what seemed like free money and constant reassurances that the value of your house would never, ever go down.

A lot of people fell for it.

198 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 10:39:17pm

re: #188 ggt

The ARM's and Refi's WERE the MBS - bundled Mortgage Backed Securites sold as derivatives --no?

The majority of buyers had good credit scores, but the loans were untenable. People who should have known better were betting on the increase or stability of the price of their home as were Wall Street and the Government Regulators.

Everyone gambled and lost this one.

Yeah, that is fraud. One would think, anyway. I can't find it at the moment, but I read on someone's Page that MS threw a woman in jail for 3 years for fraud because she lied about having a drug conviction to get SNAP.

There is something desperately wrong with this entire scenario.

199 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 10:39:59pm

re: #173 Lidane

Just look around. The anti-OWS propaganda is simple. Anyone who supports OWS or the ideas behind it supports rape. They support attacking cops, or taking a shit in public, or doing whatever negative things that have been highlighted these past weeks. It's no longer about income inequality or injustice. It's now the equivalent of asking anyone who might support OWS when they stopped beating their kids or their wife.

Is that in society at large, though, or are we just talking about KT?

200 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 10:41:01pm

re: #183 ggt

Actually, I think its a woven topic. There are sekrit encrypted messages in the weft.

/:0

Dang. If I hold it up to the light at an angle, will I be able to read it?

201 Kragar  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 10:42:39pm

re: #200 SanFranciscoZionist

Dang. If I hold it up to the light at an angle, will I be able to read it?

Got to use lemon juice.

202 ProGunLiberal  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 10:43:05pm

re: #194 ggt

A friend here.

Her family history is... interesting.

203 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 10:43:49pm

re: #199 SanFranciscoZionist

Is that in society at large, though, or are we just talking about KT?

KT is small potatoes compared to the rwnj wurlitzer. His crap is just lazybones.

204 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 10:46:24pm

Is this Constitutional or just a new on-line gaming venue?

Don't like how we elect a president? Americans Elect offers alternative.

To combat discontent with the political climate, Americans Elect aims to put the first directly nominated nonpartisan presidential candidate on the ballot, decided by an online convention.

Later this year, the website will even match delegates to leading political figures – such as current and former presidential candidates, members of Congress, governors, and business leaders – on the basis of the delegates' own profiles and the prospective candidates' positions. Each delegate can then draft a candidate of his or her choosing, or any interested candidates (constitutional requirements withstanding) can throw their hat in the ring and seek the nomination for themselves.

Ackerman says several politicians and other potential candidates have expressed interest in the Americans Elect online convention but wouldn't reveal who or how many. The nominee would be selected at an online convention in June.

205 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 10:47:28pm

re: #200 SanFranciscoZionist

Dang. If I hold it up to the light at an angle, will I be able to read it?

Depends if you are trying to decode the part that is warped . . .

206 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 10:48:25pm

re: #202 ProLifeLiberal

A friend here.

Her family history is... interesting.

Very cool!

207 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 10:48:58pm

re: #197 makeitstop

Thanks to my wife (the smart one), we went the other way.

The bank approved us for - and really pitched us hard to take - a million dollar mortgage. We ended up finding a house that costs under $300K and didn't go crazy.

It was hard not to go crazy, with the bank offering you what seemed like free money and constant reassurances that the value of your house would never, ever go down.

A lot of people fell for it.

A lot of people wanted it too!

208 Lidane  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 10:49:42pm

re: #199 SanFranciscoZionist

Is that in society at large, though, or are we just talking about KT?

In general. The OWS well is completely poisoned. The issues that were supposed to be raised are dead and buried now. The whole thing is pointless.

KT's just the most obvious example around here of someone who would otherwise be reasonable but who let themselves be completely manipulated.

209 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 10:50:22pm

re: #197 makeitstop

Thanks to my wife (the smart one), we went the other way.

The bank approved us for - and really pitched us hard to take - a million dollar mortgage. We ended up finding a house that costs under $300K and didn't go crazy.

It was hard not to go crazy, with the bank offering you what seemed like free money and constant reassurances that the value of your house would never, ever go down.

A lot of people fell for it.

Yeah, and out my way, coming right on the heels of the tech boom/bust, where people's eyes were already too big for their stomachs, I saw a lot of it.

A large part of me agrees with ggt - no one held a gun to anyone's head to sign the documents. I also think no one made the others push crap loans they knew were crap on their consumers, either.

And yet, regulation of those people will garner loud wails of gubmint oppression and communism from the same old quarters.

210 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 10:50:42pm

re: #188 ggt

The ARM's and Refi's WERE the MBS - bundled Mortgage Backed Securites sold as derivatives --no?

The majority of buyers had good credit scores, but the loans were untenable. People who should have known better were betting on the increase or stability of the price of their home as were Wall Street and the Government Regulators.

Everyone gambled and lost this one.

The problem being, of course, that Wall Street and Congress Critters AREN'T suffering their loss. And American's who DID NOT sign on the dotted line ARE.

211 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 10:57:30pm

Million dollar mortgages, cripes, talk about carrot/stick.

212 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 10:58:11pm

re: #1 darthstar

I,for one, am getting sick of the media "asking the question" of whether every rape, overdose, murder, or robbery that happens is connected to OWS. For fuck's sake, it's not like crime was invented by a bunch of pacifists arguing for economic equality.

the media's job is to sell advertising and keep people riveted ;-)

and that means ooooh rape-hippies

213 MittDoesNotCompute  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 10:58:28pm

re: #141 wlewisiii

Yet reform never, I say this again with emphasis - NEVER - happens before protest. Condi has come across as a smart woman to many but a very long time ago she signed on with the enemy team. And for that reason, I will always pity her. She could have been great; instead she willing chose to be just another tool. And that is a true loss for America.

I somehow doubt Condi needs or wants your pity, just because you feel she was on the wrong side. She's done quite alright for herself, thank you very much; her and Powell are among the few high-level people from W's administration that I think did the best with what they had to work with and left with some level of integrity.

214 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 11:01:19pm

re: #209 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

Yeah, and out my way, coming right on the heels of the tech boom/bust, where people's eyes were already too big for their stomachs, I saw a lot of it.

A large part of me agrees with ggt - no one held a gun to anyone's head to sign the documents. I also think no one made the others push crap loans they knew were crap on their consumers, either.

And yet, regulation of those people will garner loud wails of gubmint oppression and communism from the same old quarters.

I think there were a lot of poorly educated/trained individuals executing the loans and few upper management types overseeing them.

If I had been a 20 something person in the office at the time, I wouldn't have had a clue and been just doing what I was told . . .

Middle Management is told to do it, 25 years on the job, waiting for retirement, navigating the corporate maze --it's easy to see how it happened.

Even on the inside, very little of corporate machinations make sense.

215 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 11:02:47pm

re: #211 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

Million dollar mortgages, cripes, talk about carrot/stick.

Yep, you can have the house just like the one's your "friends" (a/k/a Jones's) are building. "You can keep up."

You won't be able to afford to furnish this house . . . .

216 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 11:03:08pm

re: #214 ggt

the people selling the note were not the people holding the note


if your job is only to sell, with no consequences, and you get the commission regardless?


then who cares what note the bank holds, or the homeowner's ability to pay?


the guy's already run off with the commission, onto the next one, onto the next one

217 Gus  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 11:03:15pm

re: #203 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

KT is small potatoes compared to the rwnj wurlitzer. His crap is just lazybones.

Wurlitzer!

Speaking or RWNJ with Wurlitzers. On Twitter that can be found at #ocra.

218 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 11:05:25pm

re: #214 ggt

Very true. Same for the infamous robosigning.

Enterprise worklife...some days it's a miracle ANYTHING ever gets done. (Not that any other sector is any better, eesh.)

219 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 11:05:51pm

re: #216 WindUpBird

the people selling the note were not the people holding the note

if your job is only to sell, with no consequences, and you get the commission regardless?

then who cares what note the bank holds, or the homeowner's ability to pay?

the guy's already run off with the commission, onto the next one, onto the next one

Yes and No

I had a good friend who was a Mortgage Broker. It's feast or famine. She worked very hard 7 days a week for years. You sell what qualifies --suddenly the rules change and more people qualify. . . .

If the bank is willing to buy it --after years of so many loans rejected --you figure it's ok.

220 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 11:06:15pm

re: #218 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

Very true. Same for the infamous robosigning.

Enterprise worklife...some days it's a miracle ANYTHING ever gets done. (Not that any other sector is any better, eesh.)

it's enough to make me want to wait until I can afford a house with cash

221 Gus  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 11:06:26pm

And #ocra stands for Organized Conservative Resistance Alliance.

Derp!

Seriously. That's what it stands for.

222 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 11:06:49pm

re: #220 WindUpBird

it's enough to make me want to wait until I can afford a house with cash

at least 20% down, pleez!

You'll thank me later.

223 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 11:07:14pm

re: #221 Gus 802

And #ocra stands for Organized Conservative Resistance Alliance.

Derp!

Seriously. That's what it stands for.

And all this time, I thought it was a slimy vegetable.

224 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 11:07:31pm

re: #219 ggt

Yes and No

I had a good friend who was a Mortgage Broker. It's feast or famine. She worked very hard 7 days a week for years. You sell what qualifies --suddenly the rules change and more people qualify. . . .

If the bank is willing to buy it --after years of so many loans rejected --you figure it's ok.

I don't think everyone's crooked in the biz, but it's sorta, once the rules are lessened, and everyone thinks the bubble goes forever...

even i knew people who were flipping houses in Seattle in the early 2000's!

225 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 11:08:07pm

re: #217 Gus 802

Wurlitzer!

Speaking or RWNJ with Wurlitzers. On Twitter that can be found at #ocra.

Oh christ, #ocra. I remember the day #ocra came out. Unhinged conservatives so dumb and stupid, they thought they could keep a twitter hashtag hidden.

The tcots have another one even worse than tcot - #ucot. Dumb bigots.

226 Gus  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 11:08:47pm

re: #223 ggt

And all this time, I thought it was a slimy vegetable.

Well. In a way. It in fact can be seen as a slimy vegetable.

227 makeitstop  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 11:09:06pm

re: #215 ggt

Yep, you can have the house just like the one's your "friends" (a/k/a Jones's) are building. "You can keep up."

That drove a lot of it. If all your friends have McMansions, WTF is wrong with you not having one?

You won't be able to afford to furnish this house . . .

That's why we went cheap. The guy handling our mortgage was actually pissed that we didn't bite on the ridiculously huge mortgage. Less money for him.

Meanwhile, we can go out to dinner and take vacations if we want. We're not zillionaires, but if we took what the bank wanted us to take we'd have this huge house and be trapped in it. No, thanks.

228 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 11:09:38pm

re: #220 WindUpBird

it's enough to make me want to wait until I can afford a house with cash

That's exactly what I came away with during the tech boom. People literally thought I was literally crazy for thinking that way.

229 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 11:11:08pm

re: #222 ggt

at least 20% down, pleez!

You'll thank me later.

Oh DON"T WORRY ABOUT ME

I have had the talk with the parents about How Mortgages Work, I ain't ever going for some mumbo-jumbo ARM loan *_*

this is all years in the future, dirtbag artists like me tend not to look at their cash-flow as a glorious wellspring that goes on forever. I plan to save my ass off, and i already live like a hippie, so no worries.

I figure the best protest against banks is to pay off debt and take on as little debt as possible, stay out of their clutches as much as possible. A house would be cool! But I don't need one. I have a nice apartment with honestly a bit more room than I need.

230 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 11:11:10pm

re: #223 ggt

And all this time, I thought it was a slimy vegetable.

Parboiling and a couple drops of vinegar takes care of that!

/grandma's FL cookin'

231 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 11:11:24pm

re: #225 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

Oh christ, #ocra. I remember the day #ocra came out. Unhinged conservatives so dumb and stupid, they thought they could keep a twitter hashtag hidden.

The tcots have another one even worse than tcot - #ucot. Dumb bigots.

twitter is great, ain't it?

232 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 11:12:32pm

re: #227 makeitstop

That drove a lot of it. If all your friends have McMansions, WTF is wrong with you not having one?

That's why we went cheap. The guy handling our mortgage was actually pissed that we didn't bite on the ridiculously huge mortgage. Less money for him.

Meanwhile, we can go out to dinner and take vacations if we want. We're not zillionaires, but if we took what the bank wanted us to take we'd have this huge house and be trapped in it. No, thanks.

Same here, we went into a condo. We didn't want to be "house poor".

233 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 11:12:37pm

re: #228 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

That's exactly what I came away with during the tech boom. People literally thought I was literally crazy for thinking that way.

Kinda like being in a tent revival, everyone has SEEN THE LIGHT!

234 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 11:13:27pm

re: #230 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

Parboiling and a couple drops of vinegar takes care of that!

/grandma's FL cookin'

Did your grandma cook greens the right way?

OMG!

235 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 11:13:33pm

re: #232 ggt

Same here, we went into a condo. We didn't want to be "house poor".

My brother is sorta housepoor. I have TOO MANY PLANS to be house poor :P

236 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 11:15:19pm

re: #227 makeitstop

That drove a lot of it. If all your friends have McMansions, WTF is wrong with you not having one?

It was unreal. I would be at these stupid parties and the 2nd question out of people's mouth was, "so do you rent or own".

No exaggeration - this was a legitimate topic of conversation with people they don't even know. I was like, wow, pretentious AND no home training.

Boorish a-holes.

237 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 11:17:17pm

re: #236 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

creepy!

238 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 11:17:31pm

Interest Only Loans?

Who the Fuck thought that was a good idea for the average home buyer?

All these products have a purpose, but NOT to the average home buyer.

I remember hearing about them and asking my husband WTF?

239 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 11:18:07pm

re: #234 ggt

Did your grandma cook greens the right way?

OMG!

Ohh yes. I spend the holidays with my BFF's fam, Big Puppy and everyone -- I bring the greens and they are alwas gone.

Some times I will put a little Asian-cooking twist on it...there are a lot of mustard greens and other types of greens in Asian cuisine that I have learned from. It goes really well with soul food.

240 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 11:20:34pm

re: #235 WindUpBird

My brother is sorta housepoor. I have TOO MANY PLANS to be house poor :P

A lot of people have their entire self-worth tied to their home. They have overbought into the American Dream.

IT'S ALL ABOUT THE HOUSE.

To me, as long as it will withstand the extremes of Chicago weather, keep me and my stuff warm and dry and secure from vermin --It will work.

I'd rather have lots of shoes, and dogs and be able to raise my kid the way I want.

:)

241 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 11:20:45pm

re: #232 ggt

Same here, we went into a condo. We didn't want to be "house poor".

Did you ever see Mr. Blandings Builds His Dream House?

Myrna Loy (be still my heart) and Cary Grant (be still my heart)

1948, great flick if you haven't seen it. I belive The Money Trap was a remake.

242 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 11:23:15pm

re: #241 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

Did you ever see Mr. Blandings Builds His Dream House?

Myrna Loy (be still my heart) and Cary Grant (be still my heart)

1948, great flick if you haven't seen it. I belive The Money Trap was a remake.

The Money Pit (1986), not The Money Trap.

243 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 11:23:40pm

re: #240 ggt

so weird to me *_* that's sorta my brother, he's got the big fancy bathroom with all the tile and the fixtures from the magazines

I'm like "shit to worry about! Don't care! hey, look, I can play this Dio song now!"

244 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 11:23:56pm

I saw enough friends go thru the building mess.

Sell your home, buy a "bridge" home (which IMHO is a legitimate purpose for an interest-only loan) and wait for your new home to be completed. Hope your "bridge" home will sell in time to sign the papers on your new home.

None of it with any decent amount of cash involved. All financed.

And in Chicago, there are many times in which the dirt your new home is built on is worth MORE than the home.

1/4 acre lots worth 1/2 a Million dollars or more.

INSANITY.

245 MittDoesNotCompute  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 11:24:24pm

re: #242 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

The Money Pit (1986), not The Money Trap.

Was fixing to say ;-P

246 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 11:24:31pm

re: #244 ggt

I don't even want to finance a CAR anymore!

247 Gus  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 11:26:04pm

re: #241 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

Did you ever see Mr. Blandings Builds His Dream House?

Myrna Loy (be still my heart) and Cary Grant (be still my heart)...

I love, love, that movie.

248 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 11:26:22pm

re: #240 ggt

A lot of people have their entire self-worth tied to their home. They have overbought into the American Dream.

I know what you mean. I can't stand it.

249 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 11:27:32pm

re: #243 WindUpBird

so weird to me *_* that's sorta my brother, he's got the big fancy bathroom with all the tile and the fixtures from the magazines

I'm like "shit to worry about! Don't care! hey, look, I can play this Dio song now!"

I'm particular to bathrooms. I NEED a big tub to soak my aching old body.

I don't need a mini-theatre or putting green in my basement. I don't need a 4-car garage (although my husband thinks he does).

People want castles. It would be cool, I agree, but it's just not practical without lots of staff. I don't want to manage staff. I don't want that many people in my house!

LOL

250 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 11:27:55pm

re: #248 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

I know what you mean. I can't stand it.

I know I don't want to die thinking "boy I sure did spend a lot of money on a house!"

251 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 11:28:37pm

re: #249 ggt

I'm particular to bathrooms. I NEED a big tub to soak my aching old body.

I don't need a mini-theatre or putting green in my basement. I don't need a 4-car garage (although my husband thinks he does).

People want castles. It would be cool, I agree, but it's just not practical without lots of staff. I don't want to manage staff. I don't want that many people in my house!

LOL

I need a garage! So I rent one at my apartment complex. :D

252 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 11:29:40pm

re: #246 WindUpBird

I don't even want to finance a CAR anymore!

Well, that is actually insane. A car is a depreciating asset.

Look at the Truth-In-Lending Statement on the loan papers and figure what your total payments will be, then figure what the re-sale of the car will be at the end of the loan.

Add to that the cost of insurance, taxes, license, maintenance and really, I think it might be cheaper to rent a cab.

LOL

253 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 11:31:44pm

Really, the only reason to have a castle is if you have lots of kids or family you have to house.

4 kids, a grandparent, a couple of dogs. Yeah, you probably need a large, well built house. You will be inhabiting it for at least 20 years and it will see a lot of wear and tear.

My family of 3 +animals, we don't need a castle.

254 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 11:32:04pm

re: #252 ggt

Well, I really LIKE cars, and I financed a pretty nice (to me, anyhow) car a few years back, and I still have it, and I'll drive it forever, so it's cool. :D

But I probably wouldn't do it again. ^^; I'm appreciating the Glory of having Beaters. I want a piece of shit I can spraypaint flat-black and drive to Burning Man next year *_*

255 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 11:32:42pm

Financing Boats, that one I really don't understand.

I'm not a boat person to begin with

they are a depreciating asset

AND

the Props always break while you are using them.

256 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 11:33:13pm

re: #252 ggt

And for me it wouldn't be easier to rent a cab, since I take a lot of west coast road-trips with tons of paintings in the back *_*

257 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 11:33:40pm

re: #254 WindUpBird

Well, I really LIKE cars, and I financed a pretty nice (to me, anyhow) car a few years back, and I still have it, and I'll drive it forever, so it's cool. :D

But I probably wouldn't do it again. ^^; I'm appreciating the Glory of having Beaters. I want a piece of shit I can spraypaint flat-black and drive to Burning Man next year *_*

I have a beater van right now.

It is kinda nice not worrying if a cab hits me in the city. And, I don't have to worry about it being stolen!

258 Gus  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 11:34:54pm

re: #255 ggt

Financing Boats, that one I really don't understand.

I'm not a boat person to begin with

they are a depreciating asset

AND

the Props always break while you are using them.

Houseboat... Cary Grant and Sophia Loren... 1958

259 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 11:35:03pm

re: #257 ggt

I have a beater van right now.

It is kinda nice not worrying if a cab hits me in the city. And, I don't have to worry about it being stolen!

That's what i want! I want a van conversion (or a really small RV) all purpose artist hauler-camper-thing :D

260 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 11:35:47pm

re: #252 ggt

Yeah, I get used ones. Especially living in a city. It's different out this way, though, because of our weather; our cars can last a bit longer. WUB knows my ride. I'm looking at an S40 within the coming year or so, though. I don't need bricks anymore, these days.

261 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 11:36:21pm

Is a beater like a hoopty?

262 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 11:36:32pm

re: #259 WindUpBird

That's what i want! I want a van conversion (or a really small RV) all purpose artist hauler-camper-thing :D

I have to have something that will house a dog crate or two. And my aging aching body can't handle the little cars anymore.

I am beginning to understand why old people drive the Lincolns and Cadillacs.

COMFORT becomes soo important.

263 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 11:37:27pm

re: #261 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

Is a beater like a hoopty?

Yeah, one that has been beaten and battered.

264 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 11:37:37pm

re: #260 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

Yeah, I get used ones. Especially living in a city. It's different out this way, though, because of our weather; our cars can last a bit longer. WUB knows my ride. I'm looking at an S40 within the coming year or so, though. I don't need bricks anymore, these days.

small!

I always want a brick around, preferably a turbobrick :D

265 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 11:38:09pm

re: #260 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

I miss my 850R :(

266 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 11:40:01pm

re: #264 WindUpBird

small!

I always want a brick around, preferably a turbobrick :D

OK, what's a brick?

267 MittDoesNotCompute  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 11:41:16pm

re: #266 ggt

OK, what's a brick?

Wagons, minivans...those tend to have the aerodynamics of bricks.

268 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 11:41:33pm

re: #266 ggt

OK, what's a brick?

Volvo wagon. This would be a 240


And my message #265 was more or less my old 850R. (wheels weren't aftermarket tho) Dearly departed

269 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 11:42:40pm

re: #267 talon_262

Wagon, minivans...those tend to have the aerodynamics of bricks.

For volvo geeks, the brick is specifically a term of endearment for older Volvo wagons ;-)

See: turbobricks.com

and yes, people throw V8s into them and dragrace :D

270 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 11:42:57pm

re: #244 ggt

the dirt your new home is built on is worth MORE than the home.

That's actually usually the case.

271 Gus  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 11:43:15pm

'Night.

272 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 11:44:16pm

Ok, so I drive a

hoopty brick?

a/k/a

beater van


I feel sooo old. . .

273 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 11:45:10pm

re: #270 000G

That's actually usually the case.

In metro areas --yes, but it wasn't always that way --it started in the Chicago burbs in the 90's.

BFE West Virginia --unless they discover oil, the land there will never be that valuable---LOL.

274 MittDoesNotCompute  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 11:45:29pm

re: #269 WindUpBird

For volvo geeks, the brick is specifically a term of endearment for older Volvo wagons ;-)

See: turbobricks.com

and yes, people throw V8s into them and dragrace :D

That's OK...I know someone who's a Saab geek and has at least 2-3 of them (and works on them himself, being a mechanic).

And he has dragged at least one of them, though he recently bought a '67 or '68 Dodge Coronet 440 to race prep and drag.

275 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 11:45:57pm

re: #273 ggt

In metro areas --yes

BFE West Virginia --no.

Well, of course population density is a factor. Japan versus Siberia. Look how land property titles differ.

276 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 11:46:20pm

re: #274 talon_262

That's OK...I know someone who's a Saab geek and has at least 2-3 of them (and works on them himself, being a mechanic).

Saabs are cool! I love the 900s :D

277 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 11:47:19pm

re: #275 000G

Well, of course population density is a factor. Japan versus Siberia. Look how land property titles differ.

I amended my post.

278 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 11:48:25pm

Another area of land they said would never be valuable… Lake Placid, NY.

279 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 11:52:59pm

re: #265 WindUpBird

I miss my 850R :(

Aww.

I kno how you feel - I was waiting for the frickin bus in the fog belt last night and it was chilly. Truly missed the T5 for the first time -- basically identical to this but with tinted windows.

Image: 1998-Volvo-V70-For-Sale-1998-20110804171723.jpg

Plus, i just picked up another client who is in Orinda. BART is fine and most of it will be remote anyway, but I really should have a car for this stuff. :/

280 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 11:54:20pm

re: #278 000G

Another area of land they said would never be valuable… Lake Placid, NY.

I'm still not investing in BFE West Virginia.

LOL

281 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 11:54:37pm

re: #278 000G

Another area of land they said would never be valuable… Lake Placid, NY.

Orlando, Florida!!!

282 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 11:56:43pm

re: #279 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

Eventually there will be another volvo in the household, but it sorta Depends On Things. Right now, one car is okay, but eventually WAGON!

283 jvic  Wed, Nov 16, 2011 11:57:53pm

1. So the OWS stuff is dying down without too much harm done? Good.

2. IMO a major difference from the 1960s is that there is no conscription this time around. It's one thing to be unable to find a job when you graduate. It's quite another to be shipped across the pond to get your butt shot off in a swamp.

Unfortunately, things might change if the balloon goes up wrt Iran or Pakistan.

3. This time, hopefully, it didn't take a Kent State or worse to put an end to the unrest.

284 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 12:00:51am

re: #283 jvic

it's uhh not actually "dying down" it's just been supressed with a bunch of camp-busts

there's still a big Thing happening tomorrow ;-)

285 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 12:02:58am

re: #280 ggt

I'm still not investing in BFE West Virginia.

LOL

That's the problem with the USA: Too much land. You can afford to turn entire forests into parking lots.

286 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 12:03:44am

re: #283 jvic

1. So the OWS stuff is dying down without too much harm done? Good.

2. IMO a major difference from the 1960s is that there is no conscription this time around. It's one thing to be unable to find a job when you graduate. It's quite another to be shipped across the pond to get your butt shot off in a swamp.

Unfortunately, things might change if the balloon goes up wrt Iran or Pakistan.

3. This time, hopefully, it didn't take a Kent State or worse to put an end to the unrest.

I think that is a big part of it. No one is losing their loved ones or at risk of losing their own lives in a controversional war.

The Cold War Fear Factor is gone. The MSM is having a hard time finding a legitimate source of fear to sell ads.

287 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 12:04:44am

re: #285 000G

That's the problem with the USA: Too much land. You can afford to turn entire forests into parking lots.

Not really. The Environmentalists and National Park lovers would tie you up in court--the legal fees would make it unprofitable.

288 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 12:05:54am

re: #287 ggt

Not really. The Environmentalists and National Park lovesr would tie you up in court--the legal fees would make it unprofitable.

Sure, if they're legally designated properties.

289 freetoken  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 12:08:31am

Speaking of turning forests into parking lots, I watched this documentary tonight:

Youtube Video

That so much of African wilderness (well, what remains) can still be put to the ax in slash-n-burn agriculture (in the movie by a Chinese farmer in Zambia) is so sad, given all we now know about ecosystems, and the availability of alternate methods.

290 freetoken  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 12:09:46am

Speaking of turning forests into parking lots, I watched this documentary tonight:

Youtube Video

That so much of African wilderness (well, what remains) can still be put to the ax in slash-n-burn agriculture (in the movie by a Chinese farmer in Zambia) is so sad, given all we now know about ecosystems, and the availability of alternate methods.

291 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 12:21:08am

Have a great evening/morning all!

I'm going to sleep.

292 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 12:24:06am

That picture of the 84 year old woman getting pepper-sprayed and her "Screw us and we multiply!" slogan make the rounds:

Rachel Maddow Show, with appearance from John Hodgman.

293 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 12:32:41am

re: #292 000G

That picture of the 84 year old woman getting pepper-sprayed and her "Screw us and we multiply!" slogan make the rounds:

Rachel Maddow Show, with appearance from John Hodgman.

it is no accident that Hodgman is on the same show. Well done Maddow!

294 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 12:34:53am

re: #293 WindUpBird

it is no accident that Hodgman is on the same show. Well done Maddow!

What was weird to me is that they talked about the People's Library actually having been destroyed. Wasn't that just a rumor?: [Link: yfrog.com...]

Also, I wonder if Hodgman is still on friendly terms with Frank Miller these days.

295 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 12:56:00am

"Porn star Sasha Grey reads to children while the NYPD throws books in the trash," says comedian Rob Delaney. "Inhale that, America."

296 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 12:57:10am

re: #294 000G

What was weird to me is that they talked about the People's Library actually having been destroyed. Wasn't that just a rumor?: [Link: yfrog.com...]

Also, I wonder if Hodgman is still on friendly terms with Frank Miller these days.

it seems to have actually happened!

Also, I sorta figure Frank Miller is just a classic bastard curmudgeon :D

297 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 12:59:24am

Occupy Wall Street (OWS) librarians reported tonight that the NYPD have confiscated the OWS library for a second time, a few blocks away from the National Book Awards ceremony.

The librarians tweeted: “OWSlibrary been told to remove the books from the park or the police will seize them.” Five minutes later, they wrote: “NYPD & Brookfield have taken the People’s Library again. and we love you all.” Bookseller Michael Lieberman added this information: “heard from Betsy Fagin one of the original OWS librarians that nypd and Brookfield did indeed take everything!”

Earlier today, the librarians reported that some books and materials confiscated during yesterday’s raid on Zuccotti Park were damaged. Lauren Comito has posted more pictures of wrecked books recovered at the garage (including the photo posted above).

The report included a photo of a wrinkled Bible. They are sending more reports about the state of the library–more materials may still be forthcoming. The librarians posted the photo embedded below from the city garage where the books were stored, only showing a fraction of the books and materials that once stood in the park.

Here’s more from the library blog: “it’s looking like only a few boxes of books and our (destroyed) laptops and one chair were at Sanitation. Our people on the ground report that ‘A lot is destroyed . . . more may (or may not) be coming out of their giant trashpile at back of building’ But it’s obvious to me that by recklessly throwing the contents of the park into dumpsters, the NYPD and DSNY working under Bloomberg’s orders destroyed what we built.”

In brighter news, the Occupy Wall Street Poetry Anthology is now available online as a free PDF download.

Editor’s Note: We will continue to update this post as the story evolves tonight.

298 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 1:02:30am

not surprised, re: #19 Obdicut

Banking is apparently also a magnet for crime.

And private energy markets.

yep


A big enough crime, we don't even call it crime anymore

299 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 1:05:00am

Fucking crime magnets, how do they work?

300 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 1:15:21am

I see there's been more fun in the comments.

301 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 1:27:02am

re: #300 Sergey Romanov

I see there's been more fun in the comments.

always *_*

302 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 1:31:25am

re: #301 WindUpBird

always *_*

My time was better spent doing what everyone else seems to be doing these days. And yeah, it's a neat game. :)

303 researchok  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 1:34:44am

Morning, all

304 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 1:36:41am

re: #303 researchok

Hey there. Any stabbings, rapes today? Seems to be a good day.

/

305 researchok  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 1:37:30am

Ah, but the day is still young.

306 engineer cat  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 1:44:52am

i've been working on an essay about the long term effects of ows that i might post later

briefly, most detractors are short sightedly looking at it as a news cycle event that has no meaning outside of the all consuminh narrative of the next election. hence, dark warnings about how democrats will be sorry for supporting it

but in the long term it will remain a seminal defining and bonding event in the lives of everybody now in their late teens and early twenties

for the rest of their lives they will remember it as The Month We Stood Up And Made Our Voices Heard

307 researchok  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 1:49:21am

re: #306 engineer dog

i've been working on an essay about the long term effects of ows that i might post later

briefly, most detractors are short sightedly looking at it as a news cycle event that has no meaning outside of the all consuminh narrative of the next election. hence, dark warnings about how democrats will be sorry for supporting it

but in the long term it will remain a seminal defining and bonding event in the lives of everybody now in their late teens and early twenties

for the rest of their lives they will remember it as The Month We Stood Up And Made Our Voices Heard

That's a good take.

The efficacy of the movement will be harder to gauge (that requires a lot more time and distance), but you are right to note the social impact of the events. Overall, I believe the movement will regarded positively if for no other reason than heightened awareness of an entrenched financial system that had become unresponsive to anyone but themselves.

308 RogueOne  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 1:57:56am

Morning Folks

309 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 2:19:56am

re: #308 RogueOne

Morning, Fawkes.

310 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 2:21:10am

re: #306 engineer dog

i've been working on an essay about the long term effects of ows that i might post later

briefly, most detractors are short sightedly looking at it as a news cycle event that has no meaning outside of the all consuminh narrative of the next election. hence, dark warnings about how democrats will be sorry for supporting it

but in the long term it will remain a seminal defining and bonding event in the lives of everybody now in their late teens and early twenties

for the rest of their lives they will remember it as The Month We Stood Up And Made Our Voices Heard

I'm already seeing it as the channers-deciding-they-should-believe-in-something-besides-imagemacros, and those are a cynical lot, so...if they can be swayed to care about politics, that's a win :D

311 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 2:21:41am

re: #302 Sergey Romanov

My time was better spent doing what everyone else seems to be doing these days. And yeah, it's a neat game. :)

I'll probably play it like I played Oblivion: like a year after everyone else did :D

312 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 2:22:28am

re: #302 Sergey Romanov

also, this is neat


Youtube Video

elder scrollls neerrrrdddd

313 Cannadian Club Akbar  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 2:44:16am

I was in bed when this thread hit. I'm not surprised that the righty blogs tried to pin this douche bag to the OWS movement. But let's not forget the left was calling Gabby Giffords' shooter a TP'er before all was actually known. And Mayor Bloomberg blamed the TPers for the Time Square attempted bombing.
Everyone needs to STFU and step back for a Goddamned minute before shoveling shit.
Morning Honcos.

314 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 2:45:38am

re: #313 Cannadian Club Akbar

Ain't it a little early for MBF?
/

315 freetoken  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 2:47:00am

Morning reading for the horticulturally minded, or for anyone wondering on how we're going to feed the next few billions of people:

Lost Crops of Africa: Volume II: Vegetables

Lost Crops of Africa: Volume III: Fruits

316 lostlakehiker  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 2:48:48am

re: #1 darthstar

I,for one, am getting sick of the media "asking the question" of whether every rape, overdose, murder, or robbery that happens is connected to OWS. For fuck's sake, it's not like crime was invented by a bunch of pacifists arguing for economic equality.

"Economic equality" means, what? If it means that it would be nice if more people had the skills to earn a good living, well, of course.

If it means that those whose skill sets are meager, or whose skills don't mean much in today's economy, should earn a good living anyhow, that's not so clear. Better they should upgrade or retool their skill sets, so that the general welfare may benefit more from their contribution, and they may benefit more as well. Without some sort of linkage between earnings and value of work done, economies stagnate as too many people drift into jobs such as "bureaucrat".

If it means that those who don't have, and cannot acquire, the skills to earn a good living, should still enjoy something more than stark poverty, well, that's a different argument from "economic equality". Actually, it's not an argument at all. We're agreed on that and the social safety net is sufficient that nobody need starve or suffer exposure to the elements. Again, the contest goes back and forth in a middle zone. How much in the way of earned income tax credit etc. is enough to hit the sweet spot between easing hardship and encouraging sloth?

If it means that those whose skills enable them to earn fantastic sums should hide their light under a bushel, or just find a different line of work where they don't outshine anybody, that's nuts.

If it means that the tax system should be rigged so that those who earn fantastic sums pay a higher fraction of their income than those who make a solid but unspectacular living, fine. We have that already, and the regular political process bats it back and forth between the 30 yard lines, just how progressive the taxes should be. Either way, those making less than twice the poverty line pretty much escape the federal income tax, as well as state income taxes.

If it means that social security payments should be skewed away from direct proportionality to "contributions", they are. Again, the skewing could be adjusted, but it already makes social security a somewhat progressive system. Those who make the most are considerably less likely to draw on disabiity. Unless, of course, they work for the Long Island Railroad or some other such disability fraud ring.

If it means that those whose skills are entirely self serving, e.g. skill at rigging the reported results at Fannie Mae so as to hit bonus targets, well, yeah, that should be reformed. But both parties contributed all too enthusiastically to that scam.

The federal government itself, whichever party has nominally been in power, has aided and abetted in the mortgage fraud bubble that's driven our economic difficulties. Key players have cashed in on it. All the while, as their own incomes became stratospheric and then achieved escape velocity, talking of economic equality.

317 Cannadian Club Akbar  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 2:50:28am

re: #314 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Ain't it a little early for MBF?
/

Maybe. But it's never to early for pizza!!!

318 RogueOne  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 2:50:34am

Last weeks hell week has been extended (by popular demand!) through the end of this week...so I've missed some good stuff not rape-related. You guys see this?

Is Lying On The Internet Illegal?
[Link: www.npr.org...]

Today, a subcommittee of the Committee On The Judiciary heard some fascinating testimony about the Computer Fraud and Abuse Act (CFAA). (We know what that sounds like, but bear with us.)

The hearing, titled "Cyber Security: Protecting America's New Frontier," really focused on big cyber threats to the country's infrastructure, but there was another juicier question that came out of the hearing: The way the Justice Department wants to interpret a current law, lying on the Internet would amount to a crime.

Richard Downing, deputy chief of the Computer Crime and Intellectual Property Section at the Department of Justice, argued that in order to properly protect the country, the part of the CFAA that says a person must exceed their "authorized access" to break the law should include a violation of the terms of service.

If lying on the nets is illegal we're going to need a ton more jails.

319 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 2:52:45am

re: #316 lostlakehiker

so many words!

no understanding

320 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 2:57:37am

re: #319 WindUpBird

Made sense to me.

321 Cannadian Club Akbar  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 2:59:21am

TALLAHASSEE — Unable to negotiate a penalty short of being removed from office, 1st District Court Judge Paul M. Hawkes is resigning from the court to avoid facing a trial before the Judicial Qualifications Commission.

The charges against Hawkes stem from the construction of the "Taj Mahal,'' a posh $50 million courthouse built by his court after Hawkes and other judges aggressively lobbied legislators for a bond issue that was buried in a last-minute transportation bill at the close of the 2007 Legislature.
[Link: www.tampabay.com...]

Assholes.

322 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 3:01:52am

re: #321 Cannadian Club Akbar

Once, I had an appointment with a customer who's home was a double-wide. His wife was going on about what she wanted to do with a kitchen remodel. He said, "Honey! This ain't Taj Mahal. This is Taj My Trailer!"

Was awesome.

323 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 3:08:25am

re: #320 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Made sense to me.

it made sense as sentences, like the words were in the proper grammatical order

it sorta left out, like the actual reason OWS exists, the whole credit crisis/foreclosure crisis/middle-class-being-fucked/bankers-profiting-off-unemployment/predatory-lending/20%-real-unemployment thing

hence, no understanding

324 Cannadian Club Akbar  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 3:08:25am

Monkeys 1, Drunkard 0
(I always root for the animals, though)
[Link: www.huffingtonpost.com...]

325 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 3:11:12am

like for example this:

If it means that those whose skills enable them to earn fantastic sums should hide their light under a bushel, or just find a different line of work where they don't outshine anybody, that's nuts.

Is a statement so stupid and lacking understanding of what is happening in America that I wish I could shit on it and have that translate somehow into internet shit that would deliver the proper tenor of disgust

326 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 3:11:57am

re: #323 WindUpBird

That would have taken more words.

327 AK-47%  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 3:12:40am

re: #306 engineer dog

OWS was a bunch of people out in a park. Most of them seemed to be protesting, generally against Wall Street, its policies and practices.

Others were there for other reasons: freebies, a safer place to sleep than the grate next to the parking garage, some to pick up chicks, some just to make the scene.

The thing it seemed to symbolize to me is that America stopped worshipping the Free Market as the be-all and end-all of our existence as a nation. We expect markets to operate for the benefit of all, not just the 1%.

328 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 3:14:59am

guys, who is john galt

329 EdDantes  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 3:16:19am

re: #324 Cannadian Club Akbar

Graphic? That wasn't graphic. The man was damn lucky. Do not f**k with wild animals! Professionals sometimes have to learn the hard way. The bastard is lucky he still has his 'nads. Entertaining, though!

330 EdDantes  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 3:19:01am

re: #328 WindUpBird

guys, who is john galt

A fictional character who dropped out the mainstream economic system.

331 RogueOne  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 3:19:53am

re: #328 WindUpBird

guys, who is john galt

I thought it was me but at the rate I'm going I'm never going to be able to take the winter off.

332 EdDantes  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 3:20:15am

re: #328 WindUpBird

guys, who is john galt

Also, a rhetorical question for the unknowable.

333 AK-47%  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 3:20:41am

re: #306 engineer dog

OWS was a bunch of people out in a park. Most of them seemed to be protesting, generally against Wall Street, its policies and practices.

Others were there for other reasons: freebies, a safer place to sleep than the grate next to the parking garage, some to pick up chicks, some just to make the scene.

The thing it seemed to symbolize to me is that America stopped worshipping the Free Market as the be-all and end-all of our existence as a nation. We expect markets to operate for the benefit of all, not just the 1%.

334 Cannadian Club Akbar  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 3:22:01am

re: #333 ralphieboy

Lemme guess. Computer crashed and when it fired back up, the re-post appeared?

335 Obdicut  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 3:24:45am

re: #316 lostlakehiker

Without some sort of linkage between earnings and value of work done, economies stagnate as too many people drift into jobs such as "bureaucrat".

That's the problem. We have tons of people making a lot of money in valueless professions like advertising, TV punditry, as preachers at megachurches, etc. It's not the bureaucrats that are the problem, really.

If it means that those who don't have, and cannot acquire, the skills to earn a good living, should still enjoy something more than stark poverty, well, that's a different argument from "economic equality". Actually, it's not an argument at all. We're agreed on that and the social safety net is sufficient that nobody need starve or suffer exposure to the elements.

You mean it's sufficient now? No it's not. Unless you include jail as part of the safety net.

336 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 3:25:31am

re: #324 Cannadian Club Akbar

Monkeys 1, Drunkard 0
(I always root for the animals, though)
[Link: www.huffingtonpost.com...]

Yay Darwin!

337 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 3:28:56am

re: #335 Obdicut

I love how you are judge over who does or does not have value.

When you are king, they will be first against the wall.

338 Darth Vader Gargoyle  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 3:30:25am

Good Morning Honcos!

Final preps underway for my Economics of National Security Strategy final exam. Lots of material to cover for a 3 question closed book essay test. Think I'll hang out here and procrastinate some more.

Comparative Advantage

There, I studied some more.
//

339 RogueOne  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 3:30:41am

re: #337 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I love how you are judge over who does or does not have value.

When you are king, they will be first against the wall.

I say why wait

340 Darth Vader Gargoyle  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 3:31:04am

re: #337 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I love how you are judge over who does or does not have value.

When you are king, they will be first against the wall.

Add posters on websites to the list!!
//

341 AK-47%  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 3:31:54am

re: #334 Cannadian Club Akbar

Lemme guess. Computer crashed and when it fired back up, the re-post appeared?

Yes, and then crashed again when I attempted to re-write the repeat post.

That and the fact that my short-term memory is Swiss cheese and i probably would've forgotten anyways.

342 Obdicut  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 3:31:58am

re: #337 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I love how you are judge over who does or does not have value.

When you are king, they will be first against the wall.

That's a really crappy thing to say, dude. Did that come out harsher than you mean it, or what?

In economic terms, doing advertising has value. In terms of helping humanity survive and better itself, it doesn't-- unless you happen to be advertising for the actual best product in class. Otherwise, you're helping the worse product gain a competitive advantage, which is to the detriment of everyone other than those making the worse product. Competition in advertising does not improve the product.

TV Pundits who actively lie, who dismiss global warming as a myth, are doing something worse than contributing no value, they're actually fucking things up.

I have no idea where you got to putting people up against the wall. I'm hoping that was just a bad joke.

343 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 3:33:33am

This is what you get; when you mess with us.

344 RogueOne  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 3:34:45am

I've beat this drum before, a police dept. does the right thing and then they're forced to rehire a cop who doesn't deserve to be on the job....

San Jose police officer fired for mishandling sex cases gets her badge back
[Link: www.mercurynews.com...]

A San Jose police officer who was fired last year for mishandling dozens of sex assault cases was reinstated Tuesday with full back pay after an arbitrator ruled the department failed to meet a legal deadline for taking action on her case.

Under state law, no punitive action can be taken against a law enforcement officer in California if an investigation isn't completed within a year after an official discovers the alleged misconduct.

Matty Hrncir, 34, is the third police officer fired in the past two years to be reinstated to the force.

The Police Department received an anonymous letter in January 2009 alleging Hrncir engaged in serious misconduct. Then-Assistant Chief Dan Katz ordered a criminal investigation of Hrncir on Oct. 27, 2009. The district attorney declined to file charges. She was fired Sept. 9, 2010, after an internal police investigation by then-Chief Rob Davis.

But arbitrator William F. Reeves ruled the disciplinary action was "time-barred" under state law, meaning her firing came after the one-year deadline to act.

I had a minor disagreement with another poster over this issue earlier this year. I went through multiple searches and came up with hundreds of cases like this all over the country. At one point I had a spreadsheet list but I cleaned up my desktop a couple of weeks ago and dumped it. Now I wish I still had it.

345 AK-47%  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 3:35:45am

re: #342 Obdicut

The Market uses inherent value as a factor, but the overriding one is simply "how much can I get for these goods/services at this place and time?"

The idea is to structure the market so that the inherent value is reflected in the price.

This sounds like "government meddling" to a lot of people, but let us be reminded that the Free market is not some divine state of grace, it is a mechanism. One that requires an infrastructure. Not just a phjysical infrastructure interms of road, rail, sea and air connections, but also communications.

And it requires a functioning legal and regulatory system. The latter were sadly overlooked when it came to the financial industry, and we are still paying for the damages it wrought,

346 EdDantes  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 3:36:34am

This is my 1100 th post. I will announce each milestone in increments of 100 until someone tells me to STFU!
Thank you.

347 Darth Vader Gargoyle  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 3:37:21am

re: #346 EdDantes

This is my 1100 th post. I will announce each milestone in increments of 100 until someone tells me to STFU!
Thank you.

Upding. Now, STFU!

348 Obdicut  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 3:37:27am

re: #346 EdDantes

STFU.

/kidding

349 Darth Vader Gargoyle  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 3:40:28am

re: #338 rwdflynavy

Good Morning Honcos!

Final preps underway for my Economics of National Security Strategy final exam. Lots of material to cover for a 3 question closed book essay test. Think I'll hang out here and procrastinate some more.

Comparative Advantage

There, I studied some more.
//

I know most of you are now intrigued by comparative advantage and are saying "rwdflynavy, tell us more!!"

Well, David Ricardo, one of the rockstars of Econ, came up with the concept. He also got an equivelance named after him, Ricardian equivelance.

PS: Adam Smith was a hack.
//

350 Cannadian Club Akbar  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 3:40:34am

While our jack-off congress likes to just hand out money, they need to get their shit together and figure this out.
[Link: www.huffingtonpost.com...]

351 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 3:40:52am

re: #342 Obdicut

According to your post...

You don't like advertisers. Therefore, they have no value.
You don't agree with some talking heads. Therefore, they have no value.
You don't agree with pastors of mega-churches, therefore they have no value.

You have decided.

I'm just sayin'.

The "king" line, was too harsh. Sorry. Was meant to be a clever "Radiohead" thingie.

352 EdDantes  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 3:42:00am

Thank you all. My adviser, Mark Block, tells me to "STFU!". First good advice he has ever given. My cd's are available in the lobby.

353 RogueOne  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 3:44:44am

re: #350 Cannadian Club Akbar

While our jack-off congress likes to just hand out money, they need to get their shit together and figure this out.
[Link: www.huffingtonpost.com...]

Is it the feds job to fund local community libraries? At a time when actual hard copy books are on the decline and stores are going belly up it's only a matter of time before libraries become nothing more than hubs for E-books. It's cheaper and more convenient.

354 Darth Vader Gargoyle  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 3:45:36am

re: #353 RogueOne

Is it the feds job to fund local community libraries? At a time when actual hard copy books are on the decline and stores are going belly up it's only a matter of time before libraries become nothing more than hubs for E-books. It's cheaper and more convenient.

I love my kindle, but there is still something about a physical book. I think this will take some time.

355 RogueOne  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 3:46:17am

re: #354 rwdflynavy

I love my kindle, but there is still something about a physical book. I think this will take some time.

You're old, the future is now!//

356 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 3:47:00am

There's a picture of Putin on Drudge right now (left hand column) holding a dentist's drill with a man in the chair.

That's a freakin' scary picture.

357 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 3:48:16am

Here's the pic. Didn't wanna link it.

358 RogueOne  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 3:48:25am

re: #356 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

There's a picture of Putin on Drudge right now (left hand column) holding a dentist's drill with a man in the chair.

That's a freakin' scary picture.

Scarier than the pic of Obama kissing Chavez on the mouth? Is that a photoshop?

359 Cannadian Club Akbar  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 3:48:54am

re: #353 RogueOne

Is it the feds job to fund local community libraries? At a time when actual hard copy books are on the decline and stores are going belly up it's only a matter of time before libraries become nothing more than hubs for E-books. It's cheaper and more convenient.

I think the services offered outweigh the cost. I know my socialist lieberry is always packed. And why not, we bail out every other freakin' thing.:)

360 EdDantes  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 3:50:01am

re: #357 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Here's the pic. Didn't wanna link it.

Is it safe?

361 Darth Vader Gargoyle  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 3:50:12am

re: #359 Cannadian Club Akbar

I think the services offered outweigh the cost. I know my socialist lieberry is always packed. And why not, we bail out every other freakin' thing.:)

I agree, I think libraries are still a critical resource.

362 RogueOne  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 3:50:18am

re: #359 Cannadian Club Akbar

I think the services offered outweigh the cost. I know my socialist lieberry is always packed. And why not, we bail out every other freakin' thing.:)

Good point. I'd prefer not to bailout anyone but if we're going to do it I'd rather it go to libraries than GM.

363 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 3:50:30am

re: #351 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

You have decided.

There is no need to pretend these were wholly subjective questions of opinion and taste.

364 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 3:50:33am

re: #358 RogueOne

Scarier than the pic of Obama kissing Chavez? Is that a photoshop?

Yeah. Has one of him kissing Hu also.

Benetton ad for their "Unhate" campaign.

365 Darth Vader Gargoyle  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 3:51:25am

re: #362 RogueOne

Good point. I'd prefer not to bailout anyone but if we're going to do it I'd rather it go to libraries than GM.

OUR LIBERRIES ARE TOO BIG TO FAIL!!11
//

366 Cannadian Club Akbar  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 3:52:54am

re: #365 rwdflynavy

OUR LIBERRIES ARE TOO BIG TO FAIL!!11
//

[Link: www.geekthelibrary.org...]

367 RogueOne  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 3:53:16am

Speaking of GM:

Obama's auto bailout losses expected to rise by $9 billion
[Link: content.usatoday.com...]

The federal government is going to lose billions more on its automotive bailout than it planned.

The Treasury Department now expects to lose $9 billion more on the automotive bailout, increasing the total loss to an estimated $23.6 billion, the Detroit News reports. The increase is largely due to a slide in General Motors' stock price.

The bailout is expected to play large in presidential politics. President Obama has made multiple trips to auto plants in the Midwest to tout the success of the bailout. Republican presidential hopefuls, like front-runner and former Massachusetts governor Mitt Romney, have blasted it as government interference in private commerce.

I think they're still underestimating.

368 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 3:53:58am

re: #365 rwdflynavy

OUR LIBERRIES ARE TOO BIG TO FAIL!!11
//

The library opening in my neighborhood next month has a price tag of about 12 million.

369 Darth Vader Gargoyle  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 3:54:29am

re: #367 RogueOne

Speaking of GM:

Obama's auto bailout losses expected to rise by $9 billion
[Link: content.usatoday.com...]


I think they're still misunderestimating.

370 Obdicut  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 3:54:47am

re: #351 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

According to your post...

You don't like advertisers. Therefore, they have no value.

Nope. It's not because I don't like them. Not at all.

Do you really not get that?

371 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 3:56:21am

re: #370 Obdicut

We have tons of people making a lot of money in valueless professions like advertising

Maybe I'm being too literal.

372 Cannadian Club Akbar  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 3:56:29am

re: #368 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

The library opening in my neighborhood next month has a price tag of about 12 million.

We have one near my house. It's not the main lieberry but it is in a storefront in a strip mall. Probably 1500 SF.

373 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 3:58:26am

re: #368 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

The library opening in my neighborhood next month has a price tag of about 12 million.

Has a "Mill Mountain Coffee and Tea" (local version of Starbucks) innit.

374 RogueOne  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 3:58:38am

I think this is funny but it could end badly for the homeowner:

Occupy Richmond Sets Up Camp on Lawn of Mayor’s Neighbor
[Link: www.theblaze.com...]

Occupy Richmond has a new home: Right next door to the mayor’s house, on his neighbor’s front lawn.

Protesters moved in Tuesday, pitching tents and hauling in supplies just a driveway over from Richmond, Va. Mayor Dwight C. Jones’ private residence, the Richmond Times-Dispatch reported.

The group had threatened to move in to the mayor‘s neighborhood if he didn’t allow them permits to camp in public parks. They had previously set up an encampment in Kanawha Plaza in downtown Richmond before police broke it up Oct. 31.

When Jones reportedly missed a Monday deadline to respond to their demands, Occupy Richmond took Jones’ neighbor Raymond H. Boone up on an offer to make camp on his four-acre property.

375 EdDantes  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 4:00:17am

re: #368 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I love my local library and have been a member for 38 years. I have probably checked out a thousand books and I have done hundreds of hours of research there. I have voted for bond issues to expand it and do not regret a single vote. I don't go there as often as I used to because of modern technology but I do give back by donating some of my books. They always seem pleased to get them.

376 Cannadian Club Akbar  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 4:00:48am

re: #374 RogueOne

If those people start making a bunch of noise at night the cops will come to enforce local sound ordinances and people will cry that the "man" is coming down on them.

377 Obdicut  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 4:01:12am

re: #371 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Maybe I'm being too literal.

Or not literal enough. To me, something really has value only if it actually improves someones quality of life, helps prevent bad things from happening, expands our knowledge so as to help us improve quality of life, etc. etc.

So a salesman, helping a customer pick the right product for them, as long as he's honest, is contributing to quality of life; he's sharing his knowledge with the customer and letting them benefit. That's no problem.

But in advertising, you're divorcing the ad from the actual products. The point of an ad is not to rationally and dryly compare the product with competitors, but to hide weaknesses and exaggerate superiority. It's to connect totally abstract ideas like sex, wealth, and power, with the purchase of whatever the hell it is they're selling. Advertising is, and knows itself to be, deception.

I'm not making a moral judgement on the people who do it; a man's gotta eat. But that doesn't mean I have to pretend what they do improves anyone's quality of life.

378 RogueOne  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 4:02:40am

Something else I've missed this week:

FBI Report: Majority of Anti-Faith Hate Crimes Are Anti-Jewish
[Link: www.theblaze.com...]

On Monday, the Federal Bureau of Investigations (FBI) released its 2010 report entitled, “Hate Crime Statistics” (the full text of the annual report can be found here). Of the 6,224 single bias incidents reported, 20 percent were motivated by faith and religion — making this the second most cited motivation for hate crimes abuses.

Additionally, 47.3 percent were motivated by race, 19.3 percent by sexual orientation and 12.8 percent were based upon ethnicity/national original bias. Another 0.6 percent occurred as a result of physical or mental disability.

In sum, there were 1,409 hate crimes motivated by religious bias. Of these anti-faith crimes, 65.4 percent were against Jews (or anti-Jewish), 13.2 percent were against Muslims (or anti-Islamic), 4.3 percent were anti-Catholic, 3.8 percent were anti-multiple faiths, 3.3 percent were anti-Protestant, 0.5 percent were anti-Atheism/Agnosticism/etc. and 9.5% involved other religions, as reported by Religion Clause.

379 EdDantes  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 4:03:32am

re: #368 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

The library opening in my neighborhood next month has a price tag of about 12 million.

12 mil? Wait a minute. I hope it has a good porn section.

380 Cannadian Club Akbar  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 4:04:07am

This is not the America I grew up in!!!!
Sofia Vergara: My Publicist Told Me To Get A Breast Reduction
[Link: www.huffingtonpost.com...]

381 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 4:05:11am

re: #380 Cannadian Club Akbar

Her publicist should be shot.

382 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 4:05:48am

re: #377 Obdicut

Or not literal enough. To me, something really has value only if it actually improves someones quality of life, helps prevent bad things from happening, expands our knowledge so as to help us improve quality of life, etc. etc.

The advertiser gets paid, the money improves his life, the customer enjoys his product, the free market worked, case closed.

Why do you love Communism?

/

383 Obdicut  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 4:07:07am

re: #378 RogueOne

There's about 3 times as many Jews as Muslims, so that statistic isn't quite as overwhelming as it looks, but yeah, we're still #1. Woot!

I wonder how much of that is people committing hate crimes against mainly secular Jews on religious grounds. It seems to kind of mix it together, because I don't see any hate crimes against Jews in the 'racial' section.

70.0 percent were victims of an offender’s anti-black bias.
17.7 percent were victims of an anti-white bias.
5.1 percent were victims of an anti-Asian/Pacific Islander bias.
1.2 percent were victims of an anti-American Indian/Alaskan Native bias.
6.0 percent were victims of a bias against a group of individuals in which more than one race was represented (anti-multiple races, group).

384 Cannadian Club Akbar  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 4:07:12am

re: #379 EdDantes

12 mil? Wait a minute. I hope it has a good porn section.

Public masturbator #1: At 2:59 p.m. Sept. 30 in the 34000 block of 1st Way South, police were dispatched to reports of a man masturbating at the Federal Way Public Library. According to the report, the man was viewing pornography on a library computer and masturbating while doing so. The suspect was detained by police

Read more: [Link: www.seattlepi.com...]

385 EdDantes  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 4:07:56am

re: #380 Cannadian Club Akbar

Is her publicist that assh**e Mark Block? Absolutely unamerican.

386 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 4:08:12am

re: #378 RogueOne

Urgh. theblaze.com

We can't get this better from some other source or directly from the horse's mouth?

387 Obdicut  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 4:08:39am

re: #386 000G

Here you go.

[Link: www.fbi.gov...]

388 Cannadian Club Akbar  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 4:09:36am

re: #386 000G

Urgh. theblaze.com

We can't get this better from some other source or directly from the horse's mouth?

There is an FBI linky in the story.

389 Obdicut  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 4:10:06am

re: #386 000G

It is pretty glaring that The Blaze reports breathlessly on the high amount of anti-Jewish hate crime but totally ignores this:

70.0 percent were victims of an offender’s anti-black bias.

Very post-racial of them.

/

390 RogueOne  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 4:10:37am

re: #383 Obdicut

Congrats on holding onto #1!

It's kind of a good news/bad news situation. 6000 hate crimes (and only 3000 based on race) is 6000 too many but when you put it into context of 300 million people it's really not that bad.

391 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 4:12:02am

re: #377 Obdicut

To me

something really has value only if it actually improves someones quality of life,

Decided by?

helps prevent bad things from happening,

Decided by?

expands our knowledge so as to help us improve quality of life,

Decided by?

etc.

Decided by?

I love ya, man. But some mornings your moral superiority is turned up to 11.

392 RogueOne  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 4:12:13am

re: #386 000G

Urgh. theblaze.com

We can't get this better from some other source or directly from the horse's mouth?

The source is linked in the very first sentence of the story.

393 Obdicut  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 4:12:56am

re: #390 RogueOne

Well, the real number is much, much higher than that, obviously. That's just the number that were actually reported as hate crimes. Often, there's not enough evidence of the motivation of the crime being motivated by bigotry to actually make the charge. Often, a crime goes entirely unreported. So both of those categories are left out.

Because motivation is subjective, it is sometimes difficult to know with certainty whether a crime resulted from the offender’s bias. Moreover, the presence of bias alone does not necessarily mean that a crime can be considered a hate crime. Only when law enforcement investigation reveals sufficient evidence to lead a reasonable and prudent person to conclude that the offender’s actions were motivated, in whole or in part, by his or her bias, should an incident be reported as a hate crime.

So the real number is obviously much higher.

394 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 4:13:17am

Out.

395 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 4:13:28am

re: #392 RogueOne

No linkie. I ain't going to that crap site until it's medically neccessary.

396 Varek Raith  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 4:14:18am

re: #383 Obdicut

At least we're still #1 for POTUS.
:P
Image: Presidential-Religion-Poll.png

397 Darth Vader Gargoyle  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 4:14:18am

re: #373 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Has a "Mill Mountain Coffee and Tea" (local version of Starbucks) innit.

Yummm!

398 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 4:14:35am

re: #391 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Decided by?

Why, the almighty "free market", of course. Can't have any other power be determining anything.

399 Obdicut  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 4:14:52am

re: #391 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I love ya, man. But some mornings your moral superiority is turned up to 11.

Do you honestly think there's no jobs out there where the person is not actually doing anything helpful? That there aren't any jobs where, at the end of the day, they've done nothing that improves the world?

400 Obdicut  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 4:15:55am

re: #396 Varek Raith

Remember, I get double hate-crime coupons because I'm Jewish and an atheist. If only I were gay, albino, and left-handed too.

401 Varek Raith  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 4:16:15am

re: #400 Obdicut

Remember, I get double hate-crime coupons because I'm Jewish and an atheist. If only I were gay, albino, and left-handed too.

I'm left handed.
:P

402 Shropshire_Slasher  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 4:16:26am

re: #313 Cannadian Club Akbar
Well said bro.

403 Darth Vader Gargoyle  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 4:16:26am

re: #399 Obdicut

Do you honestly think there's no jobs out there where the person is not actually doing anything helpful? That there aren't any jobs where, at the end of the day, they've done nothing that improves the world?

DMV clerks?
//

404 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 4:16:48am

re: #399 Obdicut

People voting with their ballots = Communism
People voting with their feet = Free market

« [...] la majestueuse égalité des lois, qui interdit au riche comme au pauvre de coucher sous les ponts, de mendier dans les rues et de voler du pain. »

405 Varek Raith  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 4:17:46am

re: #403 rwdflynavy

DMV clerks?
//

Youtube Video
406 Cannadian Club Akbar  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 4:18:04am

re: #401 Varek Raith

I'm left handed.
:P

Me too. Fuckin' righties!!!!
///

407 Obdicut  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 4:18:43am

re: #403 rwdflynavy

Well, that's my point. If you honestly feel that-- and can make an argument for-- DMV clerks not producing anything of value, I'll happily listen to it, and take it seriously. I mean, I know you were joking, but there are certainly some regulatory situations where it is valueless. Some towns you've got to go and get a permit to have a BBQ in your back yard, get a license to have a cat, etc. Someone enforcing counterproductive regulations has a valueless or value-reducing job; probably not their fault, they're probably not the person who came up with the idea.

408 sattv4u2  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 4:18:54am

re: #403 rwdflynavy

DMV clerks?
//

The guy that was driving the line painting machine??

Image: not_my_job.jpg
//

409 RogueOne  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 4:20:12am

re: #403 rwdflynavy

DMV clerks?
//

Indiana used to have self help kiosks that were wonderful to use. I could go in anytime and register my vehicles, get new stickers, and be out in 5 minutes. As part of the deal in cutting state employees they removed them to get enough votes to pass their package. It took me an hour last month to get my truck registered. Annoying as hell.

410 sattv4u2  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 4:20:22am

re: #406 Cannadian Club Akbar

What time's your meeting

(and g'luck, btw)

411 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 4:22:06am

re: #401 Varek Raith

I'm left handed.
:P

FREAK!
///
say you're red-haired too, say it///

412 Varek Raith  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 4:22:33am

re: #411 Sergey Romanov

FREAK!
///
say you're red-haired too, say it///

Nope, dark brown hair.

413 Cannadian Club Akbar  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 4:22:52am

re: #410 sattv4u2

4:30.

414 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 4:23:27am

re: #412 Varek Raith

Nope, dark brown hair.

FREAK! wait what

415 Varek Raith  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 4:23:37am

Fox Gins Up Outrage Over Obama's Observation That The U.S. Has Fallen Behind In Math And Science Education

Uh, note to Fox,

What Obama said is 100% true.

416 Cannadian Club Akbar  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 4:23:45am

re: #412 Varek Raith

Nope, dark brown hair.

And how tall? And tell me about you eyes. Slowly.....
///

417 RogueOne  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 4:23:51am

re: #413 Cannadian Club Akbar

4:30.

Good timing. 10 minutes past 4:20, that should help calm your nerves so you can give a great interview. (I have no idea wtf we're talking about btw)

418 Obdicut  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 4:24:00am

re: #412 Varek Raith

Nope, dark brown hair.

Dye jobs won't help you, ginger-topped cultist of Conan.

Image: tonight_show_conan_o_brien_im_with_coco_image_01.jpg

419 Varek Raith  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 4:24:14am

re: #416 Cannadian Club Akbar

And how tall? And tell me about you eyes. Slowly...
///

6'3", brown eyes.
Too sexy for you alls.
:P

421 sattv4u2  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 4:25:56am

re: #409 RogueOne

Indiana used to have self help kiosks that were wonderful to use. I could go in anytime and register my vehicles, get new stickers, and be out in 5 minutes. As part of the deal in cutting state employees they removed them to get enough votes to pass their package. It took me an hour last month to get my truck registered. Annoying as hell.

Georgia, we have to get an emissions inspection each year (more on that in a second)
After thats done, you don't have to go to the tag office to get your new registration for the year as long as you e-file/pay 2 weeks before the "old" one expires (time enough for them to mail you the new sticker)

NOW ,, as far as the "inspection", here in Ga all they do is the emissions, nothing else

Back in Massachusetts they would do a complete safety inspection. Your tires had to have "x" amount of tread still visible ,, all your lights had to work,, your wipers ,,, no cracks in your windsheild ,,, your horn had to function,, etc ,, before they would PASS you

I liked the Mass system better

422 sattv4u2  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 4:26:54am

re: #417 RogueOne

Good timing. 10 minutes past 4:20, that should help calm your nerves so you can give a great interview. (I have no idea wtf we're talking about btw)

Nothing new there!!!

423 RogueOne  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 4:28:38am

re: #422 sattv4u2

Nothing new there!!!

Image: biteme.png

424 sattv4u2  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 4:29:21am

re: #423 RogueOne

Image: biteme.png

hey ,, you lob a softball like that in there, expect me to go yard with it!

425 Decatur Deb  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 4:29:35am

re: #361 rwdflynavy

I agree, I think libraries are still a critical resource.

Yes, but in a few years most won't be brick-and-mortar.
"Support Your Local Free Public Kindle"

426 Darth Vader Gargoyle  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 4:29:36am

re: #409 RogueOne

Indiana used to have self help kiosks that were wonderful to use. I could go in anytime and register my vehicles, get new stickers, and be out in 5 minutes. As part of the deal in cutting state employees they removed them to get enough votes to pass their package. It took me an hour last month to get my truck registered. Annoying as hell.

Florida lets me renew all my cars registrations online. LOVE IT!! It has been years since I last set foot in a DMV and that's a good thing.

427 sattv4u2  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 4:30:12am

re: #426 rwdflynavy

Florida lets me renew all my cars registrations online. LOVE IT!! It has been years since I last set foot in a DMV and that's a good thing.

same in GA (see 421)

428 Varek Raith  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 4:30:35am

re: #427 sattv4u2

same in GA (see 421)

And VA.

429 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 4:31:04am

re: #423 RogueOne

Image: biteme.png

Careful. That's not Libya. It won't be only sticks.

430 Varek Raith  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 4:31:33am

re: #428 Varek Raith

And VA.

At least on your license or ID. I don't have a car so I'm not sure on registration.

431 sattv4u2  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 4:32:12am

re: #428 Varek Raith

And VA.

But like I stated, you couldn't get your registration back in Mass until you got your inspection sticker, and it was a rigid full safety inspection

432 RogueOne  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 4:32:18am

re: #426 rwdflynavy

Florida lets me renew all my cars registrations online. LOVE IT!! It has been years since I last set foot in a DMV and that's a good thing.

We can do it online or through the mail but I'm into instant gratification.

433 sattv4u2  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 4:33:10am

re: #432 RogueOne

We can do it online or through the mail but I'm into instant gratification.

So many lines ,, so little time!

434 Varek Raith  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 4:33:42am

re: #433 sattv4u2

So many lines ,, so little time!

He's walking into all kinds of traps this morning.

435 RogueOne  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 4:34:19am

re: #431 sattv4u2

But like I stated, you couldn't get your registration back in Mass until you got your inspection sticker, and it was a rigid full safety inspection

Indiana has zero inspections. The MI joke about IN is half our population was on the way to MI when their pickup broke down so they stayed here. In IN you can (actually have to..) register any and every vehicle even if it's sitting in the garage without an engine.

436 sattv4u2  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 4:35:04am

And on that note ,,, a quick nap before my semi- annual eye exam
(why yes Dr,,, these "readers" I have ARE twice as strong as 6 months ago!!)

437 sattv4u2  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 4:36:39am

re: #435 RogueOne

Indiana has zero inspections. The MI joke about IN is half our population was on the way to MI when their pickup broke down so they stayed here. In IN you can (actually have to..) register any and every vehicle even if it's sitting in the garage without an engine.

Well,, at least Ga inspects the emissions!!

(no idea what the "allowable" limits are, but seems to be fairly liberal considering the amount of "beaters" I see driving around)

438 Cannadian Club Akbar  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 4:36:50am

In FLA to renew DL now:
Nirth Certifikate
SS card
2 proofs of residency.
(I never changed the name on the utilities when I bought my house, but I have my homestead paperwork)

439 Shropshire_Slasher  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 4:38:56am

In NY vehicle inspections are tough. That yellow check engine light on? FAIL. You are lucky to get ten years out of a car up here. (with the skin cancer from all the salt so we can drive 90 mph in a snow storm)

440 Varek Raith  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 4:40:32am

re: #439 Shropshire_Slasher

In NY vehicle inspections are tough. That yellow check engine light on? FAIL. You are lucky to get ten years out of a car up here. (with the skin cancer from all the salt so we can drive 90 mph in a snow storm)

We don't use salt here in the city. Just good old dirt. Seems to work.
Not that it matters, fools still speed down untreated roads like crazies.

441 Cannadian Club Akbar  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 4:41:50am

re: #439 Shropshire_Slasher

re: #440 Varek Raith

You know what the number one problem is about Florida drivers? They're all from up North!!!
///

442 Shropshire_Slasher  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 4:42:04am

re: #440 Varek Raith

The state can't use dirt, fills in the wetlands, can't dredge the rivers due to PCB's etc.

443 Obdicut  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 4:42:27am

re: #439 Shropshire_Slasher

They used so much damn salt back in Connecticut when I was a kid it'd poison our stream. There were never any crawdads in the first few hundred yards of it, and really weird, gross vegetation grew there. Then it'd slowly clean out after spring and start looking normal by autumn. Then another round of salt-dumping.

444 RogueOne  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 4:43:23am

N.J. launches pilot program for unused drug drop off, disposal
[Link: www.nj.com...]

The state attorney general’s office is calling on New Jersey residents to fight prescription drug abuse through a new initiative called "Project Medicine Drop," authorities said.

Starting today, residents will be able to dispose of unused prescription drugs at drop boxes inside the Little Falls, Seaside Heights and Vineland Police Departments, according to Attorney General Paula Dow, who said prescription drug abuse has been responsible for more overdose-related deaths than illicit narcotics like cocaine and heroin over the past several years.
....
Dow hopes to expand the project to all 21 counties in New Jersey in the next several months. Dropoffs can be made anonymously, and police will not question residents who decide to make large disposals at the mailbox-like drop off points.

Yeah, I buy that. The Army used to have what they called "health and welfare inspections" where they'd go through the barracks looking for drugs. Prior to the search everyone would get in a line, go through a room one at a time, and drop whatever they didn't want found in a box. I had a friend who had a 4' bong that he was trying to hide under his blouse while standing in line. He got busted and sent back to the states. He wasn't real smart.

445 Darth Vader Gargoyle  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 4:43:47am

re: #441 Cannadian Club Akbar

re: #440 Varek Raith

You know what the number one problem is about Florida drivers? They're all from up North!!!
///

Favorite bumper sticker I saw in Florida: When I get old, I'm going to move north and drive slow.

446 Varek Raith  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 4:44:45am

re: #445 rwdflynavy

Favorite bumper sticker I saw in Florida: When I get old, I'm going to move north and drive slow.

They'll just love Maryland.
Slowpokes, the lot of em.

447 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 4:46:36am

Image: orwell-1984_vs_huxley-BraveNewWorld.png

448 Shropshire_Slasher  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 4:47:11am

re: #443 Obdicut

Salt shock, I see it up along the highway, all the pine trees that line the road, the side of the tree facing the road its needles are brown.

450 RogueOne  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 4:50:56am

re: #449 Varek Raith

Flouting States’ Rights Principles, House GOP Pushes Radical Concealed Carry Bill

I wouldn't call it "radical" but I agree with the point that it's unnecessary. The states are already taking care of that with their own reciprocity agreements.

451 Darth Vader Gargoyle  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 4:51:41am

re: #449 Varek Raith

Flouting States’ Rights Principles, House GOP Pushes Radical Concealed Carry Bill

Next you'll be able to use your Florida drivers license in Virginia!!! The outrageous outrage of it all!!

452 Cannadian Club Akbar  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 4:53:04am

2 neighbors. 2 orange trees. Both half full. Give it 2 weeks.:)

453 RogueOne  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 4:54:08am

Finally caught up with paperwork and morning break is over. Time to get to work, enjoy the day folks!

454 EdDantes  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 4:54:45am

Nite all. God willing, we will prevail, in peace and freedom from fear, and in true health, through the purity and essence of our natural fluids. God bless you all.

455 Darth Vader Gargoyle  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 4:56:09am

re: #454 EdDantes

Nite all. God willing, we will prevail, in peace and freedom from fear, and in true health, through the purity and essence of our natural fluids. God bless you all.

Icecream, children's icecream Mandrake.

456 EdDantes  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 4:56:59am

re: #455 rwdflynavy

Movie geek.

457 EdDantes  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 4:59:17am

good night. I mean it this time :)

458 Cannadian Club Akbar  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 5:02:21am

Well. This is troubling.(nsfw, maybe)
[Link: www.huffingtonpost.com...]

459 Decatur Deb  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 5:05:45am

re: #451 rwdflynavy

Next you'll be able to use your Florida drivers license in Virginia!!! The outrageous outrage of it all!!

Not familiar with the details, but if that means Alabama CC rules will get a gun into NY or MI, the locals there have a problem. A CC permit here is no harder, perhaps a bit easier, to get than an ID for a 6-pack (as long as you're not visiting from Tijuana.)

460 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 5:07:50am

Morning Lizardim from the clear and bitterly cold wild north country. Winter is definitely in with a vengeance, with a sub-20 degree F (-7 degrees C) dawn greeting me as I trundled in to work. Snow is in the forecast for the weekend, our first big snow of the season (supposedly, and hopefully). Better a weekend than a weekday, any day.

461 Cannadian Club Akbar  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 5:11:51am

re: #460 thedopefishlives

Morning Lizardim from the clear and bitterly cold wild north country. Winter is definitely in with a vengeance, with a sub-20 degree F (-7 degrees C) dawn greeting me as I trundled in to work. Snow is in the forecast for the weekend, our first big snow of the season (supposedly, and hopefully). Better a weekend than a weekday, any day.

[Link: www.baynews9.com...]
:)

462 Darth Vader Gargoyle  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 5:13:39am

re: #459 Decatur Deb

Not familiar with the details, but if that means Alabama CC rules will get a gun into NY or MI, the locals there have a problem. A CC permit here is no harder, perhaps a bit easier, to get than an ID for a 6-pack (as long as you're not visiting from Tijuana.)

There is a background investigation...

[Link: www.jeffcosheriff.org...]

463 Decatur Deb  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 5:13:52am

re: #461 Cannadian Club Akbar

[Link: www.baynews9.com...]
:)

That's cold, man. Well, not really cold, but you know...

464 Darth Vader Gargoyle  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 5:14:13am

Off to class. Stay scaly!

465 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 5:14:25am

re: #461 Cannadian Club Akbar

[Link: www.baynews9.com...]
:)

I actually like having 4 different seasons, instead of "warm, warmer, warmest".

466 Decatur Deb  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 5:16:35am

re: #462 rwdflynavy

There is a background investigation...

[Link: www.jeffcosheriff.org...]

County-by-county. That's freakn' Birmingham. If I haven't punched the sheriff's daughter, here, I'm cool. Haven't bothered to apply yet.

467 Cannadian Club Akbar  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 5:18:55am

re: #465 thedopefishlives

I actually like having 4 different seasons, instead of "warm, warmer, warmest".

When I go to spring training baseball games here in March and I sit in the bleachers and start to sweat, my thoughts are, "well, this is gonna suck".

468 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 5:19:26am

re: #467 Cannadian Club Akbar

When I go to spring training baseball games here in March and I sit in the bleachers and start to sweat, my thoughts are, "well, this is gonna suck".

If you tried to hit a baseball up here in March, you'd break your arm.

469 Decatur Deb  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 5:23:39am

Got to get dressed, drive to the next county, prove I'm not Mexican, and pay some property tax. We can no longer get our plates and license renewal by mail because they want to see our baby blues.

470 NJDhockeyfan  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 5:24:43am

Good morning lizards.

About that WH shooter:

Details unfold in shots fired at White House

WASHINGTON (AP) — A man clad in black who was obsessed with President Barack Obama pulled his car within view of the White House at night and fired shots from an assault rifle, cracking a window of the first family's living quarters while the president was away, authorities said.

The U.S. Secret Service found two bullets had hit the White House and agents caught up with Oscar Ramiro Ortega-Hernandez in Pennsylvania on Wednesday after a four-day search. Police arrested the 21-year-old Idaho man at a hotel after a desk clerk recognized his picture. Ortega was scheduled to make his first appearance at 2 p.m. Thursday in federal court in Pittsburgh and many questions remained about his motive and background.

Authorities are investigating the man's mental health and say there are indications he believed attacking the White House was part of a personal mission from God, according to two different law enforcement officials who spoke with The Associated Press. There are also indications the man had become obsessed with Obama and the White House, according to the officials, who spoke on the condition of anonymity because the investigation is ongoing.

He was on a mission from God, really? Who does he think he is, one of the Blues Brothers?

471 Cannadian Club Akbar  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 5:24:52am

re: #469 Decatur Deb

Got to get dressed, drive to the next county, prove I'm not Mexican, and pay some property tax. We can no longer get our plates and license renewal by mail because they want to see our baby blues.

I'd answer all their questions in a mix of Spanish and French, if possible.

472 Cannadian Club Akbar  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 5:27:04am

re: #470 NJDhockeyfan

I want to see what is on his computer.

473 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 5:28:25am

re: #470 NJDhockeyfan

Good morning lizards.

About that WH shooter:

Details unfold in shots fired at White House

He was on a mission from God, really? Who does he think he is, one of the Blues Brothers?

A man clad in black

No, he's Johnny Cash.

474 Decatur Deb  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 5:28:50am

re: #471 Cannadian Club Akbar

I'd answer all their questions in a mix of Spanish and French, if possible.

Hola, amigos, yo quiero pagare mi dogana. The property is a trailer I'm renting to a kid. For all the county knows it's a taco stand run by the Zetas. All the while the sweet smell of meth production wafts over the countryside.

475 AK-47%  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 5:29:53am

re: #470 NJDhockeyfan

Good morning lizards.

About that WH shooter:

Details unfold in shots fired at White House


He was on a mission from God, really? Who does he think he is, one of the Blues Brothers?

Or a GOP presidential candidate...

476 Sheila Broflovski  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 5:31:08am

re: #474 Decatur Deb

Hola, amigos, yo quiero pagare mi dogana. The property is a trailer I'm renting to a kid. For all the county knows it's a taco stand run by the Zetas. All the while the sweet smell of meth production wafts over the countryside.

Who watched "White Trash in Trouble" on South Park last night?

477 Decatur Deb  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 5:33:32am

re: #476 Alouette

Who watched "White Trash in Trouble" on South Park last night?

Nope. While I exercise I watch the polite policemen make traffic stops on "America's Most Wanted Cops."

478 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 5:36:14am

re: #476 Alouette

Who watched "White Trash in Trouble" on South Park last night?

Sorry, I was glued to the Discovery Channel. MythBusters. Mmm.

479 Decatur Deb  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 5:36:56am

re: #478 thedopefishlives

Sorry, I was glued to the Discovery Channel. MythBusters. Mmm.

Physics Porn.

480 Cannadian Club Akbar  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 5:37:49am

re: #479 Decatur Deb

Physics Porn.

The "grease fire" episode was my favorite.

481 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 5:38:14am

re: #479 Decatur Deb

Physics Porn.

What can I say, Kari Byron is hawt. Especially when she's carrying a gun.

/No, Mrs. Fish, you don't need to kick me out to the couch tonight

482 Decatur Deb  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 5:38:55am

re: #480 Cannadian Club Akbar

The "grease fire" episode was my favorite.

Needs moar water.

483 Cannadian Club Akbar  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 5:39:24am

re: #481 thedopefishlives

What can I say, Kari Byron is hawt. Especially when she's carrying a gun.

/No, Mrs. Fish, you don't need to kick me out to the couch tonight

Image: kari-byron-kari-byron.jpg

484 Decatur Deb  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 5:40:03am

re: #483 Cannadian Club Akbar

No Kari, no joy.

485 kirkspencer  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 5:40:15am

re: #449 Varek Raith

Flouting States’ Rights Principles, House GOP Pushes Radical Concealed Carry Bill

And suddenly there shall be a huge market in fake drivers licenses from Vermont and Arizona.

486 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 5:40:48am

re: #480 Cannadian Club Akbar

The "grease fire" episode was my favorite.

My favorite episodes are the ones where Adam and Jamie do something explosive. Adam Savage makes me giggle, never more so than when he's setting off bombs.

487 Decatur Deb  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 5:42:09am

Gotta go. Have a very loyal citizenish day.

488 Cannadian Club Akbar  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 5:42:27am

Alrighty. Work beckons. See y'all this tonight.:)

489 Obdicut  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 5:44:14am

re: #470 NJDhockeyfan

Good morning lizards.

About that WH shooter:

Details unfold in shots fired at White House

He was on a mission from God, really? Who does he think he is, one of the Blues Brothers?

I'd say it's about even chances between schizophrenic or a radical pro-life activist.

490 NJDhockeyfan  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 5:48:51am

re: #489 Obdicut

I'd say it's about even chances between schizophrenic or a radical pro-life activist.

I think he's got some mental problems that need to be addressed. A modern day John Hinckley. Maybe he is looking to win Jodie Foster's heart.

491 Eventual Carrion  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 5:49:04am

re: #19 Obdicut

Banking is apparently also a magnet for crime.

And private energy markets.

A man with a briefcase can steal more money
than any man with a gun
- Don Henley "Gimme what you got"

492 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 5:50:29am

re: #464 rwdflynavy

Off to class. Stay scaly!

I think the dopefish is evolving feathers on top of his scales in order to keep warm.

493 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 5:51:31am

re: #492 oaktree

I think the dopefish is evolving feathers on top of his scales in order to keep warm.

Forget feathers. That's why the sooper-sekrit lizardoid headquarters is underground. Saves on heating costs.

494 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 5:54:34am

re: #493 thedopefishlives

Forget feathers. That's why the sooper-sekrit lizardoid headquarters is underground. Saves on heating costs.

Just be careful not to dig too deep.

/dwarf fortress mode

495 NJDhockeyfan  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 5:54:54am

Yesterday about 100 OWS protesters in San Francisco invaded a BoA bank, pitched a tent, and vandalized the bank. Today you can purchase that tent on eBay!

496 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 5:56:48am

Image: bar_jokes.png

497 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 5:58:21am

Great Cop-themed show of WFMU's Underwater Theme Park with Meghan, live right now

498 Obdicut  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 5:59:59am

re: #495 NJDhockeyfan

Yesterday about 100 OWS protesters in San Francisco invaded a BoA bank, pitched a tent

Not another masturbation thread, please.

499 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 6:01:39am

re: #498 Obdicut

Not another masturbation thread, please.

C'mon Obdicut you already know he is a right-wing talking point/event Terminator. He won't stop, he'll show no mercy, etc. etc.

500 Kronocide  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 6:03:13am

re: #495 NJDhockeyfan

Yesterday about 100 OWS protesters in San Francisco invaded a BoA bank, pitched a tent, and vandalized the bank. Today you can purchase that tent on eBay!

WATERBOARD THEM.

501 NJDhockeyfan  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 6:07:34am

re: #498 Obdicut

Not another masturbation thread, please.

LOL...There haven't been any reports of masturbating or shitting on the floor inside the bank yesterday.

:)

502 Obdicut  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 6:07:47am

re: #490 NJDhockeyfan

I think he's got some mental problems that need to be addressed. A modern day John Hinckley. Maybe he is looking to win Jodie Foster's heart.

Well, maybe. It's definitely a strong possibility. But categorizing extreme religious fervor as mental problems is something a lot of religious people would object to.

503 NJDhockeyfan  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 6:10:04am

re: #502 Obdicut

Well, maybe. It's definitely a strong possibility. But categorizing extreme religious fervor as mental problems is something a lot of religious people would object to.

If it involves murder, attempted murder, or violence, the shoe fits.

504 NJDhockeyfan  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 6:11:16am

OWS live feed from NYC

505 Obdicut  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 6:11:44am

re: #503 NJDhockeyfan

If it involves murder, attempted murder, or violence, the shoe fits.

I think that lets a lot off people off way too easy. Like most Islamic terrorists. I don't think they're crazy. Do you really? They're just nuts, not responsible for their actions?

506 NJDhockeyfan  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 6:13:10am

re: #505 Obdicut

I think that lets a lot off people off way too easy. Like most Islamic terrorists. I don't think they're crazy. Do you really? They're just nuts, not responsible for their actions?

If they are killing people they must be crazy. What kind of sane person would do such a thing?

507 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 6:13:56am

re: #505 Obdicut

I think that lets a lot off people off way too easy. Like most Islamic terrorists. I don't think they're crazy. Do you really? They're just nuts, not responsible for their actions?

Actually, I would argue that they suffer from a mental disorder, but not to the degree where they're not responsible for their actions. I don't know how to explain that line of thought, though. Certainly doesn't seem to have much precedent in jurisprudence.

508 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 6:14:09am

re: #506 NJDhockeyfan

A soldier.

scnr

509 NJDhockeyfan  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 6:14:42am

re: #508 000G

A soldier.

scnr

A soldier, really?

510 Daniel Ballard  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 6:15:03am

re: #449 Varek Raith

Flouting States’ Rights Principles, House GOP Pushes Radical Concealed Carry Bill

I disagree. Reciprocity would be appropriate for CCW. "Dodging training requirements" is a very hostile view. An easy fix is a rider with said requirements, but then we would be overworking the CCW critics, forcing them to dream up some other thinly veiled ad hoc objection.

People that need CCW (there are plenty) do not always have the luxury of staying on one state. I'm an example of that my work for a gold refinery takes me from state to state.

511 Obdicut  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 6:15:25am

re: #506 NJDhockeyfan

If they are killing people they must be crazy. What kind of sane person would do such a thing?

Really? Okay. That, to me, is the classic bleeding-heart liberal "they're not really responsible for their actions". If you want to let them off that easy, have at it, but if you think everyone who kills people because of their beliefs is just crazy, then throwing them in jail is wrong.

What do you want, them to have art therapy classes until they can convince a psychiatrist they're all better?

512 Kronocide  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 6:15:47am

re: #499 oaktree

C'mon Obdicut you already know he is a right-wing talking point/event Terminator. He won't stop, he'll show no mercy, etc. etc.

AKA troll.

513 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 6:16:56am

re: #509 NJDhockeyfan

A soldier, really?

Do you think soldiers are insane?

514 Obdicut  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 6:17:12am

re: #510 Rightwingconspirator

This is one of the worst ideas I've ever seen. Cops in places where they don't allow concealed carry are going to assume the dude they see with a piece under his jacket is up to no good. And at traffic stops, etc.

515 Daniel Ballard  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 6:18:35am

re: #510 Rightwingconspirator

Oh and I have to wonder-How many who support the over arching mandate to buy insurance oppose CCW reciprocity as a violation of states rights?
Dissonance is the congressional way.

516 Obdicut  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 6:19:23am

re: #515 Rightwingconspirator

I don't oppose reciprocity because it's a violation of states rights, but because it's a terrible idea that is a nightmare for law enforcement.

517 NJDhockeyfan  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 6:19:50am

re: #511 Obdicut

Really? Okay. That, to me, is the classic bleeding-heart liberal "they're not really responsible for their actions". If you want to let them off that easy, have at it, but if you think everyone who kills people because of their beliefs is just crazy, then throwing them in jail is wrong.

What do you want, them to have art therapy classes until they can convince a psychiatrist they're all better?

Art therapy? Has that ever worked?

There are some who just enjoy murdering anyone they can find and are brainwashed into believing it and there are other who are just crazy.

518 NJDhockeyfan  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 6:20:42am

re: #513 000G

Do you think soldiers are insane?

Are they just randomly going out to kill people? WTF?!?!

519 Obdicut  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 6:22:30am

re: #517 NJDhockeyfan

Art therapy? Has that ever worked?

I don't know, dude. You're the one saying they're not responsible for their actions.

There are some who just enjoy murdering anyone they can find and are brainwashed into believing it and there are other who are just crazy.

So what should be done about them? They're just crazy, they're brainwashed, so what should we do? Punishing them is obviously wrong, since you're saying they're not responsible for their actions. So what should we do?

520 Daniel Ballard  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 6:23:03am

re: #516 Obdicut

Nightmare? Not if they choose to deal with it properly. Cops in states that have common CCW deal with it every day. No big deal. L.E. worries can be addressed and largely have been. Some would say all those photographers on the sidewalk is a nightmare when they have tough work to do. Too bad. It's the law.

521 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 6:23:32am

re: #518 NJDhockeyfan

Are they just randomly going out to kill people? WTF?!?!

So if it's not random then it's not insane?

So soldiers are sane? If they are sane, see #508.

522 Daniel Ballard  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 6:23:45am

re: #514 Obdicut

This is one of the worst ideas I've ever seen. Cops in places where they don't allow concealed carry are going to assume the dude they see with a piece under his jacket is up to no good. And at traffic stops, etc.

Are they so incapable of being trained up? I don't think so.

523 lawhawk  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 6:24:24am

Greets and saluts from the NYC metro area. I know that OWS stuff can get grating on people, so I'll keep things brief. I work a couple of blocks north from Zuccotti Park and the OWS had promised to make a mess of the local streets through protests and marches all day. So far?

Not much of anything to report in and around the 9am hour. There were some demonstrations at Zuccotti Park and the plaza across the street from Zuccotti Park but traffic was flowing smoothly on Broadway and there was a boosted police presence in the area.

There was apparently an attempt to march on Wall Street and the NYSE, but the NYPD has effectively sealed off that area to protesters (lots of barriers and people must show ID to get into the vicinity). Major hassles for those working in that area, and I'm not sure how the subway stops (Wall Street has several stops within walking distance) are being treated, but I guess there's a big police presence there too. Apparently the protesters are getting in line to show ID - and slowing down the process, but it looks like things haven't been shut down.

524 Decatur Deb  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 6:25:20am

re: #502 Obdicut

Well, maybe. It's definitely a strong possibility. But categorizing extreme religious fervor as mental problems is something a lot of religious people would object to.

Like a lot of mental states, it's a problem if the culture decides it's a problem.

525 Gus  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 6:25:28am

The rich and their lower class right-wing defenders: another day of nervous breakdowns over the OWS demonstrations in NYC.

526 NJDhockeyfan  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 6:25:38am

CBS's live feed is off. Found another one.

527 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 6:26:38am

re: #512 BigPapa

AKA troll.

Not really. He is just not going to respond in a meaningful way to critiques of his posting methods, material, selection of material, or timeliness of the material.

528 Obdicut  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 6:26:50am

re: #520 Rightwingconspirator

Nightmare? Not if they choose to deal with it properly. Cops in states that have common CCW deal with it every day. No big deal.

I'm sorry, but you're not a cop. You don't get to say that it's not a big deal on their behalf. Law enforcement has a divided opinion on CCW.

L.E. worries can be addressed and largely have been. Some would say all those photographers on the sidewalk is a nightmare when they have tough work to do. Too bad. It's the law.

Comparing guns and cameras is facile.

529 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 6:28:10am

re: #506 NJDhockeyfan

If they are killing people they must be crazy.

Why?

What kind of sane person would do such a thing?

A lot of Nazi murderers were "ordinary men". Not clinically insane by any def.

530 Kronocide  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 6:31:48am

re: #527 oaktree

Not really. He is just not going to respond in a meaningful way to critiques of his posting methods, material, selection of material, or timeliness of the material.

Well we don't agree but that's OK. This incessant OWS posting is pretty trollish so I stand by the label.

(except for Lawhawk, not trolly)

531 Daniel Ballard  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 6:32:13am

re: #528 Obdicut

I'm sorry, but you're not a cop. You don't get to say that it's not a big deal on their behalf. Law enforcement has a divided opinion on CCW.

Comparing guns and cameras is facile.

Facile? Hardly. I don't have to be a cop to have a grip on the issues, particularly in light of the fact I spent years (of weekend days) helping train police and others in pistol skills at I.S.I. in Ventura.

I don't have to be a Wall Street trader to see where some regulations would be in order either. Nor a Doctor to see where we need medical review.

Requiring that one must be a cop to have an educated point of view is in error and unkind to the concept of discussion of these matters.

532 Obdicut  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 6:32:54am

re: #529 Sergey Romanov

I'm pretty damn 'liberal', but the idea evil people aren't responsible for the shit they do because they're just crazy literally nauseates me.

533 Targetpractice  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 6:33:30am

Mornin', fellow lizards. What's the good word?

534 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 6:33:58am

re: #533 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

Mornin', fellow lizards. What's the good word?

Blah.

535 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 6:34:02am

re: #533 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

What's the good word?

Clitoris.

536 Obdicut  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 6:34:12am

re: #531 Rightwingconspirator

I didn't say that you couldn't have an opinion. I said that saying it's not a big deal was wrong. I stand by that. You can have your opinion-- it's one shared by some law enforcement people. It's not shared by all of them, and their view deserves representation as well.

And the comparison between a camera and a weapon is facile. A camera can't kill anyone.

537 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 6:34:16am

re: #533 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

Mornin', fellow lizards. What's the good word?

Apparently the word this morning is "facile".

538 Gus  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 6:35:14am

re: #533 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

Mornin', fellow lizards. What's the good word?

I'm fecking cold. Was probably warmer inside an 18th century cabin then this fecking place I'm at. No damned fire place in here either. And it's not even Winter yet.

539 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 6:35:15am

re: #536 Obdicut

I didn't say that you couldn't have an opinion. I said that saying it's not a big deal was wrong. I stand by that. You can have your opinion-- it's one shared by some law enforcement people. It's not shared by all of them, and their view deserves representation as well.

And the comparison between a camera and a weapon is facile. A camera can't kill anyone.

A camera is worse - it will steal their soul!
(believed to do so in a number of circles)

540 Targetpractice  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 6:35:30am

re: #537 oaktree

Apparently the word this morning is "facile".

Did I miss something big last night?

541 Decatur Deb  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 6:35:51am

re: #530 BigPapa

Well we don't agree but that's OK. This incessant OWS posting is pretty trollish so I stand by the label.

(except for Lawhawk, not trolly)

You're seeing the successful deployment of Occupy LGF.

542 NJDhockeyfan  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 6:36:20am

re: #529 Sergey Romanov

Why?

A lot of Nazi murderers were "ordinary men". Not clinically insane by any def.

I wouldn't call Nazis who murdered millions of people "ordinary men", sorry.

Gotta go to work. Cheers!

543 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 6:36:29am

re: #535 000G

Sorry, doesn't roll off the tongue!

544 Obdicut  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 6:36:31am

Idiot blue dogs are endorsing the pile of craptastic failure that is the balanced budget amendment.

[Link: thinkprogress.org...]

545 AK-47%  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 6:36:52am

re: #491 RayFerd

A man with a briefcase can steal more money
than any man with a gun
- Don Henley "Gimme what you got"

"Robbing a bank is a minor crime compared to opening one."
-Berthold Brecht

546 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 6:37:04am

re: #542 NJDhockeyfan

I wouldn't call Nazis who murdered millions of people "ordinary men", sorry.

Aaaand you miss the point once again. Typical, really.

547 Obdicut  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 6:37:09am

re: #542 NJDhockeyfan

I wouldn't call Nazis who murdered millions of people "ordinary men", sorry.

Gotta go to work. Cheers!

Well, they were. Germany wasn't a nation of madmen. That's the challenge we have to face. Ordinary people are capable of evil. Hand-waving it away as insanity is excusing them.

548 Targetpractice  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 6:37:16am

re: #538 Gus 802

I'm fecking cold. Was probably warmer inside an 18th century cabin then this fecking place I'm at. No damned fire place in here either. And it's not even Winter yet.

Think warm thoughts. A roaring fire...a warm oven...the heat blast from a tactical nuclear strike...wait, what?

//

549 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 6:37:49am

re: #540 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

Did I miss something big last night?

No idea. I missed most of the thread(s) last night doing laundry and cleaning the apartment. Though I expect simply looking at # of comments and the tail end of this set that there was another OWS-related pissing contest.

550 Gus  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 6:38:05am

re: #544 Obdicut

Idiot blue dogs are endorsing the pile of craptastic failure that is the balanced budget amendment.

[Link: thinkprogress.org...]

I saw that yesterday. Double the unemployment? I'm skeptical. Who came up with those numbers the CBO or a journalist major?

551 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 6:38:27am

re: #543 Sergey Romanov

Sorry, doesn't roll off the tongue!

Oh yes, it does.

*wink wink*

552 AK-47%  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 6:39:15am

re: #529 Sergey Romanov

Why?


A lot of Nazi murderers were "ordinary men". Not clinically insane by any def.

That was the famous thesis of Hannah Arendt on "The Banality of Evil": that guys like Adolf Eichmann were not psychopaths or villains, they were in almost every other respect identical to what we would consider average, everyday citizens.

553 Obdicut  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 6:39:57am

re: #550 Gus 802

I saw that yesterday. Double the unemployment? I'm skeptical. Who came up with those numbers the CBO or a journalist major?

Macroeconomic Advisers, an independent economic analysis firm.

Bruce Bartlett also shares the view.

554 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 6:40:08am

re: #548 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

Think warm thoughts. A roaring fire...a warm oven...the heat blast from a tactical nuclear strike...wait, what?

//

That's falling into the "Build a man a fire and you keep him warm for a day. Set a man on fire and you keep him warm for the rest of his life." meme. Those your choice of options implies that you've been listening too much to Varek.

555 Decatur Deb  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 6:40:17am

re: #547 Obdicut

Well, they were. Germany wasn't a nation of madmen. That's the challenge we have to face. Ordinary people are capable of evil. Hand-waving it away as insanity is excusing them.

It simply employed the genius of industrialization: "Break the task down into responsibilities the ordinary person can manage." Only the extraordinary resisted.

556 iossarian  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 6:40:37am

re: #516 Obdicut

I don't oppose reciprocity because it's a violation of states rights, but because it's a terrible idea that is a nightmare for law enforcement.

It (concealed carry reciprocity) is also a bit of a logical fail, in that it stipulates that some rights (the right to carry a gun) should cross state boundaries while other rights (the right to assume that the other people enjoying lunch at Chipotle with me are not carrying guns) should not only remain at home, but be undermined there as well.

557 Daniel Ballard  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 6:40:56am

re: #536 Obdicut

The comparison is about the relevant laws and the appropriate training to enforce and adhere to it. The analogy stands once you accept the context.
If you reject my intended context, okay, but that would then be a deliberate misunderstanding.

If I seem a bit put out about this, (trying not to) that would be because the lack of reciprocity puts me at higher risk to do my day to day work. Given the level of criminal threat people in my industry face, they often have a different view than what one would expect from those who face no special threat.

558 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 6:42:36am

re: #552 ralphieboy

Not quite. Eichmann wasn't banal or really ordinary, though he wasn't insane either. But many "field executioners" were ordinary, read Browning's Ordinary men.

559 Obdicut  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 6:42:49am

re: #557 Rightwingconspirator

The comparison is about the relevant laws and the appropriate training to enforce and adhere to it. The analogy stands once you accept the context.

Only if you acknowledge there's much more at stake with a gun than a camera.

If you reject my intended context, okay, but that would be then a deliberate misunderstanding.

I'm rejecting the idea that anything having to do with guns is 'no big deal'. If you want to call that deliberate misunderstanding, feel free

If I seem a bit put out about this, (trying not to) that would be because the lack of reciprocity puts me at higher risk to do my day to day work. Given the level of criminal threat people in my industry face, they often have a different view than what one would expect from those who face no special threat.

Which is totally understandable. But I'm asking you to extend that sympathy for cops, who also face a greater level of criminal activity.

560 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 6:43:01am

re: #552 ralphieboy

That was the famous thesis of Hanna Arent on "The Banality of Evil": that guys like Adolf Eichmann were not psychopaths or villains, they were in almost every other respect identical to what we would consider average, everyday citizens.

We discussed that the other day: [Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...] It's Arendt btw.

561 Targetpractice  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 6:43:26am

re: #547 Obdicut

Well, they were. Germany wasn't a nation of madmen. That's the challenge we have to face. Ordinary people are capable of evil. Hand-waving it away as insanity is excusing them.

I'll have to look it up, but one of the "de-Nazification" actions taken by the Allies once the war ended was to take politicians from all ranks of German life, men who'd turned a blind eye to the atrocities, and haul them to the death camps to witness first hand the things Hitler had done in their names. And while viewing it, they were forced to listen to long speeches given by Allied commanders, detailing exactly how much they sucked for having allowed it all to happen. That none had spoken up, none had protested, all had just "followed orders," even as millions of fellow human beings were tortured, starved, beaten, shot, stabbed, and so forth.

562 Gus  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 6:44:29am

re: #553 Obdicut

Macroeconomic Advisers, an independent economic analysis firm.

Bruce Bartlett also shares the view.

Yeah, well, they're all politicians and revolving door is rather roomy. Nothing that DC can come up with now is going to change a systemic problem. This is all a patch up job. And whatever the Democrats can come up with will only be a bandaid on a massive problem. Government creating jobs is essential corporate welfare since they're taking up the slack to prevent national chaos. Again, it's like welfare and Medicaid doing the job that the Walmarts of America should be doing.

563 Obdicut  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 6:45:31am

re: #562 Gus 802

We need a large transformation on how we view corporate responsibility. To do that, we need to reduce the power of money in politics. To do that, we need to reduce the power of money in politics.

Uh oh.

564 Targetpractice  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 6:46:48am

re: #544 Obdicut

Idiot blue dogs are endorsing the pile of craptastic failure that is the balanced budget amendment.

[Link: thinkprogress.org...]

For what? Are they seriously convinced that the BBA will fix this nation's economic problems? Or are they being offered a carrot in exchange? If so, I hope to God they've got it down on paper, signed in blood, because otherwise the GOP's taking their asses to the cleaners yet again.

565 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 6:47:38am

re: #561 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

I think it happened maybe several times only near the concentration camps in Germany proper and only local population was involved. It wasn't some mass action.

566 Obdicut  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 6:47:48am

re: #564 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

Honestly, I think they just want to get relected, and they figure this is the best way of going about it. I think they're idiots; in the GOP storming off the house, it was mostly Blue Dogs getting knocked off.

567 AK-47%  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 6:47:50am

re: #555 Decatur Deb

It simply employed the genius of industrialization: "Break the task down into responsibilities the ordinary person can manage." Only the extraordinary resisted.

It was also pointed out that other nations just shot people, buried them and forgot about it.

The Germans approached it industrially and kept meticulous records, there are filing cabinets full of of recepits for things like the replacement costs for cartidges used to shoot concentration camp prisoners.

568 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 6:48:00am

re: #561 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

I am pretty sure no German politician was ever hauled to a death camp. What you mean are "ordinary" concentration camps. The actual death camps were all in Poland and Belarus.

The people confronted with the horrors of the "ordinary" concentration camps were usually ordinary citizens, not neccessarily politicians, AFAIK. See, for instance, Buchenwald: [Link: commons.wikimedia.org...]

569 Daniel Ballard  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 6:49:06am

re: #559 Obdicut

I'm rejecting the idea that anything having to do with guns is 'no big deal'. If you want to call that deliberate misunderstanding, feel free

Which is totally understandable. But I'm asking you to extend that sympathy for cops, who also face a greater level of criminal activity.

Few have more sympathy for cops than I do. Heck, I have taken some heat around here for that you may recall. But when you look at how other complicated matters have been dealt with from state vehicle code differences to the whole penal code, dealing with CCW is far from the thickest problem. It's just about a well crafted law (have not read the current draft) and of course a time period & training resources for cops to learn the new law.

Cops must be able to adjust to new laws and changes in laws their whole career. This is just another. Many states already have reciprocity. Those states have dealt with it. What's wrong with the rest of them?

570 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 6:49:12am

re: #568 000G

The people confronted with the horrors of the "ordinary" concentration camps were usually ordinary citizens, not neccessarily politicians, AFAIK. See, for instance, Buchenwald: [Link: commons.wikimedia.org...]

More photos: [Link: commons.wikimedia.org...]

571 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 6:49:36am

re: #562 Gus 802

Yeah, well, they're all politicians and revolving door is rather roomy. Nothing that DC can come up with now is going to change a systemic problem. This is all a patch up job. And whatever the Democrats can come up with will only be a bandaid on a massive problem. Government creating jobs is essential corporate welfare since they're taking up the slack to prevent national chaos. Again, it's like welfare and Medicaid doing the job that the Walmarts of America should be doing.

And band-aids is what you will continually get because there still appears to be enough people in the system smart enough to realize that at a minimum there has to be sufficient indication that the system can be changed from within. If things go over the balance point to convince enough people that a non-violent solution can never be reached then the inevitable will occur.

Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable.
- JFK

572 Gus  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 6:49:42am

re: #563 Obdicut

We need a large transformation on how we view corporate responsibility. To do that, we need to reduce the power of money in politics. To do that, we need to reduce the power of money in politics.

Uh oh.

Nothing is going to change.

573 Targetpractice  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 6:49:42am

re: #568 000G

I am pretty sure no German politician was ever hauled to a death camp. What you mean are "ordinary" concentration camps. The actual death camps were all in Poland and Belarus.

The people confronted with the horrors of the "ordinary" concentration camps were usually ordinary citizens, not neccessarily politicians, AFAIK. See, for instance, Buchenwald: [Link: commons.wikimedia.org...]

Indeed, just looked it up and found out my memory was incorrect. Thanks.

574 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 6:50:07am

re: #567 ralphieboy

Not quite. Extermination camps were a total mess throughout their histories. They did manage to murder on an "industrial" scale, but there was no that stereotypical "German order and efficiency" genius involved in that, not at all.

575 Gus  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 6:51:07am

Uh oh. MikeySDCA is on a roll with his pages. D'oh!

576 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 6:51:24am

This is a really odd, mesmerizing photo, btw:

[Link: resources.ushmm.org...]

577 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 6:51:34am

re: #568 000G

I am pretty sure no German politician was ever hauled to a death camp. What you mean are "ordinary" concentration camps. The actual death camps were all in Poland and Belarus.

The people confronted with the horrors of the "ordinary" concentration camps were usually ordinary citizens, not neccessarily politicians, AFAIK. See, for instance, Buchenwald: [Link: commons.wikimedia.org...]

For myself, I make a distinction: most concentration camps were death camps. Extermination camps (most of which were not concentration camps) were death camps too.

578 lawhawk  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 6:51:54am

re: #563 Obdicut

You're stuck in a feedback loop.

You're stuck in a feedback loop.

You're stuck in a feedback loop.

But yes, that's the problem - to work towards a solution, you've got to engage in the very practices that causes the problems. And all the interests behind that money isn't going to sit back and lose that influence quietly or easily (see how difficult it is to deal with the tax code and all the special interest carve-outs).

579 Daniel Ballard  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 6:52:02am

re: #572 Gus 802

Nothing is going to change.

Take heart. Some minority leaders probably thought that long ago. They kept trying. :-)

580 Gus  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 6:52:07am

Still cold. I'm cranky.

581 Targetpractice  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 6:52:40am

re: #566 Obdicut

Honestly, I think they just want to get relected, and they figure this is the best way of going about it. I think they're idiots; in the GOP storming off the house, it was mostly Blue Dogs getting knocked off.

Yeah, grand plan, undermining your presidential candidate by supporting the opposition party's deluded fantasies. Seriously, I think the only reason so many Blue Dogs don't just run as Republicans is because the "D" next to their names is the only thing that keeps them in office.

582 AK-47%  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 6:52:49am

re: #574 Sergey Romanov

Not quite. Extermination camps were a total mess throughout their histories. They did manage to murder on an "industrial" scale, but there was no that stereotypical "German order and efficiency" genius involved in that, not at all.

But they kept meticulous records, never thinking that they might be used against them...

583 Obdicut  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 6:52:58am

re: #569 Rightwingconspirator

Many states already have reciprocity. Those states have dealt with it. What's wrong with the rest of them?

The states that have reciprocity usually have lax laws themselves, so it's not a big difference.

It is totally fine if you want to argue the merits of CCW. I happen to support CCW in a lot of ways. But arguing that it's just not a big deal, that it has no risk or downside, that it's just positive, is silly.

584 Decatur Deb  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 6:53:14am

Speaking of CC, a meth producer (job-creator) in our town has just shot off his ankle bracelet and taken his gun collection to parts unknown. We'll have to lock the door tonight.

585 Gus  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 6:53:22am

re: #579 Rightwingconspirator

Take heart. Some minority leaders probably thought that long ago. They kept trying. :-)

Good cop, bad cop, you're still going to jail. That's the two parties. I'm sure you know who I think is the good cop. ;)

586 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 6:53:50am

re: #577 Sergey Romanov

For myself, I make a distinction: most concentration camps were death camps. Extermination camps (most of which were not concentration camps) were death camps too.

AFAIK, in academic jargon, "death camp" and "extermination camp" are synonymous.

But yeah, I acknowledge it is difficult to come up with a workable terminology because it will have to put an explanatory system over the official system.

587 Obdicut  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 6:54:25am

re: #572 Gus 802

Nothing is going to change.

Oh, yes it will. It's just probably not going to happen in anything like a good, ordinary fashion. Most likely, absolute disaster is going to start happening with the negative effects of AGW, and what that's going to do to our political system and society I have no idea. It's never happened before.

588 AK-47%  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 6:55:22am

re: #584 Decatur Deb

Speaking of CC, a meth producer (job-creator) in our town has just shot off his ankle bracelet and taken his gun collection to parts unknown. We'll have to lock the door tonight.

Not so much a "job creator" as a "job enabler": how else can someone hold down three jobs and put in 90-hour weeks without being cranked?

589 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 6:56:35am

re: #582 ralphieboy

But they kept meticulous records, never thinking that they might be used against them...

So did the Soviets. I wouldn't say nameless statistics are all that hard to keep. Most of it was destroyed anyway, which is why, for example, we only recently established more or less precise death tolls for Treblinka, Belzec and Sobibor, and that only after a British decoded intercept of a German telegram was declassified several years ago in UK.

590 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 6:56:43am

re: #584 Decatur Deb

Speaking of CC, a meth producer (job-creator) in our town has just shot off his ankle bracelet and taken his gun collection to parts unknown. We'll have to lock the door tonight.

Did he also happen to shoot off his ankle with it? Seems like that would solve the problem.

591 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 6:56:53am

re: #565 Sergey Romanov

I think it happened maybe several times only near the concentration camps in Germany proper and only local population was involved. It wasn't some mass action.

I think this was Czechoslovakia: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:VolarydeadJews.jpg

AFAIK, the Protectorate of Bohemia and Moravia was never fully incorporated into the Reich proper. Could be wrong, though. Anyhow, minor technical detail.

592 McSpiff  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 6:57:05am

re: #581 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

Yeah, grand plan, undermining your presidential candidate by supporting the opposition party's deluded fantasies. Seriously, I think the only reason so many Blue Dogs don't just run as Republicans is because the "D" next to their names is the only thing that keeps them in office.

Makes me wonder why the Dems don't kick them out of the party.

593 Obdicut  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 6:58:16am

re: #592 McSpiff

Makes me wonder why the Dems don't kick them out of the party.

Then they lose majority, and don't get to have people as the heads of senate committees, which is a lot of power.

594 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 6:58:48am

re: #586 000G

AFAIK, in academic jargon, "death camp" and "extermination camp" are synonymous.

But yeah, I acknowledge it is difficult to come up with a workable terminology because it will have to put an explanatory system over the official system.

I just can't bring myself to say that this or that camp wasn't a "death" camp. They were. Maybe that wasn't their primary function and the death tolls do not compare to extermination camps, but they were still enormous enough.

595 Decatur Deb  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 6:59:18am

re: #590 thedopefishlives

Did he also happen to shoot off his ankle with it? Seems like that would solve the problem.

Yeah--I'd be checking the emergency rooms first. Since he was willing to violate it's circuitry, he could have just used a bolt-cutter. "When your only tool is a .357, every problem looks like a target."

596 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 6:59:30am

re: #591 000G

I think this was Czechoslovakia: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:VolarydeadJews.jpg

AFAIK, the Protectorate of Bohemia and Moravia was never fully incorporated into the Reich proper. Could be wrong, though. Anyhow, minor technical detail.

I think it did happen in Germany proper, maybe in Dachau. Seen it in some reel on USHMM site.

597 Gus  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 7:00:28am

Laurence Meyer - Macroeconomic Advisers Co-Founder

He was nominated to the Fed by President Bill Clinton along with Alice Rivlin in 1996. At the Fed, Meyer was one of the Governors most ready to raise interest rates, because he believed that the economy was operating near full capacity, and especially that employment was near the non-accelerating inflation rate of unemployment, or the rate that would cause inflation. Alan Greenspan, the Chairman at that time, was one of the leaders of the idea that improved productivity would allow the Fed to keep interest rates low without causing inflation.

After leaving the Fed, Meyer became a Distinguished Scholar at the Center for Strategic and International Studies*. He also resumed working with Macroeconomic Advisers.

*The current president of the Center for Strategic and International Studies is John Hamre. A Republican.

This is not about good policy or policy for the people. It's a power play. It's good cops vs. bad cops while the elite keep swilling on their champagne in DC.

Like I said. The revolving door. Sorry but in keeping with my current state of radicalization but these people are part of the problem.

598 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 7:00:43am

re: #592 McSpiff

Makes me wonder why the Dems don't kick them out of the party.

And the Dems have (at least in recent times) been more of a bit-tent party without a bunch of issue litmus tests for membership. "DINO" is a lot more of a joke than "RINO" in terms of agitating to throw someone out. Heck, just look at how Lieberman is treated.

599 Daniel Ballard  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 7:00:45am

re: #583 Obdicut

The states that have reciprocity usually have lax laws themselves, so it's not a big difference.

It is totally fine if you want to argue the merits of CCW. I happen to support CCW in a lot of ways. But arguing that it's just not a big deal, that it has no risk or downside, that it's just positive, is silly.

Okay. For discussion, I'll stipulate it's a big deal. Arguing we must not do a law like this because it's too hard is weak. Yeah, it's guns. Lives are at stake. That makes the effort worthwhile.

600 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 7:00:58am

re: #567 ralphieboy

It was also pointed out that other nations just shot people, buried them and forgot about it.

Errrr. The Germans shot LOTS of people, especially in Ukraine (also, the death camps in Belarus were basically just mass shooting grounds, IIRC). They only cared about them when they feared they would be used as evidence against them, when the tide of the War turned: [Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

601 Daniel Ballard  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 7:01:16am

I'm off to my commute. Thanks for the mental warm up Obdicut.

602 Targetpractice  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 7:02:01am

re: #592 McSpiff

Makes me wonder why the Dems don't kick them out of the party.

As Obdi already noted, it's about the numbers, about the majority. In many parts of the country, party loyalty still has to take a back seat to ideology. Thus running a New England Democrat in the Deep South would be suicidal. This is something the GOP is in the process of learning for itself.

603 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 7:04:08am

re: #594 Sergey Romanov

I just can't bring myself to say that this or that camp wasn't a "death" camp. They were. Maybe that wasn't their primary function and the death tolls do not compare to extermination camps, but they were still enormous enough.

Sure, but the difference is big. Think about the early or so-called wild concentration camps operated by SA early under NS rule, for instance. A lot of them closed and never re-opened. There were deaths, lots of them. But IMHO not really comparable to war-time camps.

Some camps functioned mostly as transit stations to the death camps. So few people died there but their function was to kill people elsewhere. Others, like Mauthausen or Buchenwald, of course, were places of huge numbers of death.

604 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 7:06:18am

re: #596 Sergey Romanov

I think it did happen in Germany proper, maybe in Dachau. Seen it in some reel on USHMM site.

No, no, I know it happened in Germany proper. See the links to Wikimedia Commons. I was just trying to provide an example for it happening outside of Germany.

605 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 7:06:42am

re: #603 000G

OK, I correct "most" to "many".

606 Obdicut  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 7:07:04am

re: #597 Gus 802

There's an objective question: Would the balanced budget amendment cause more problems. It's answerable. I'm not getting how this is part of good cop bad cop.

607 Obdicut  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 7:08:08am

re: #599 Rightwingconspirator

Okay. For discussion, I'll stipulate it's a big deal. Arguing we must not do a law like this because it's too hard is weak. Yeah, it's guns. Lives are at stake. That makes the effort worthwhile.

I'm not saying we shouldn't do it because it's too hard, but that we should do a rational analysis of benefit and loss.

608 Gus  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 7:10:04am

re: #606 Obdicut

There's an objective question: Would the balanced budget amendment cause more problems. It's answerable. I'm not getting how this is part of good cop bad cop.

Democrats are the good cops and Republicans are the bad cops. Yes, it's simplistic populism but that's the sound bite I've been using. I'm sorry but when push comes to shove the Democrats are barely on the side of the American people. Not when they, just like the Republicans in congress, have their noses in the trough of monetary influence; the revolving doors; every growing riches; insider trading; and being a part of the 1 percent elites that have ruined this nation. Ergo, Democrats are the good cops and Republicans are the bad cops. Either way you're going to get screwed.

609 Decatur Deb  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 7:10:41am

re: #606 Obdicut

There's an objective question: Would the balanced budget amendment cause more problems. It's answerable. I'm not getting how this is part of good cop bad cop.

There are at least two ways to balance a budget. The TPGOP wouldn't like mine.

610 lawhawk  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 7:10:53am

The US Holocaust Museum separates out concentration camps and death/extermination camps (calling those killing centers).

Yad Vashem calls them extermination camps. Yad Vashem notes that concentration camps were frequently used to describe all the camps, even though the Germans themselves categorized the camps by purpose (transit, concentration, labor, pow, and extermination/death).

Some camps were both concentration and death/extermination camps - Auschwitz/Birkenau the most infamous. The concentration camps came first, and the death camps/extermination camps came later, particularly after the Wannsee conference/aktion Reinhart.

611 Obdicut  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 7:12:24am

re: #608 Gus 802

But that has nothing to do with whether the Balanced Budget Amendment is a pile of crap. It is. And that's all I'm saying. I fully agree that the majority of Democrats are corporatists, along with 99% of the GOP.

Doesn't mean that we should just throw up our hands. If we do, then I'm not sure why we're even bothering to talk about it. I'm not a fan of talk sans action.

612 Gus  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 7:12:37am

re: #606 Obdicut

There's an objective question: Would the balanced budget amendment cause more problems. It's answerable. I'm not getting how this is part of good cop bad cop.

But I didn't answer your question. At this time it would cause huge problems. Not the least of which is cutting Federal spending that would lead to government layoffs would only worsen the recession. In a nutshell.

613 Gus  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 7:14:34am

re: #611 Obdicut

But that has nothing to do with whether the Balanced Budget Amendment is a pile of crap. It is. And that's all I'm saying. I fully agree that the majority of Democrats are corporatists, along with 99% of the GOP.

Doesn't mean that we should just throw up our hands. If we do, then I'm not sure why we're even bothering to talk about it. I'm not a fan of talk sans action.

See below. ;)

614 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 7:14:36am

re: #610 lawhawk

even though the Germans themselves categorized the camps by purpose (transit, concentration, labor, pow, and extermination/death).

Not just by purpose (I'd prefer "function") but also by organisation. There were basically two main organizations running the camps: the SS-WVHA and the RSHA.
 These were at odds with one another on several occasions. And this rivalry between competing agencies was probably intended.

615 Simply Sarah  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 7:15:24am

re: #599 Rightwingconspirator

Okay. For discussion, I'll stipulate it's a big deal. Arguing we must not do a law like this because it's too hard is weak. Yeah, it's guns. Lives are at stake. That makes the effort worthwhile.

That's the point. What this bill does is say that every state needs to recognize CCW from other states, even if the only requirement from the other state is that you mail them $20, with no training, no background check, no residency requirement, and where it doesn't matter if you've been previously convicted of murder using a firearm. That is, to me, utterly insane. It's a race to the bottom that effectively simply says "All people have the right to CCW".

Granted, I'm not the strongest gun rights supporter (I think that, in many ways, the American mentality about guns is part of the feedback loop of violence that makes up American culture), but I'm also not saying states can't introduce ridiculously loose CCW laws if they really want. It's when every other state suddenly needs to agree to those standards that I have an issue.

How do we deal with people that feel they need CCW across state lines? That's a bit more complicated. Ideally, states would make agreements to respect each others permits, but that obviously only goes so far when you have some extremely loose states and some much more restrictive ones. A federal permit seems like a solution, but I couldn't really support that for the same reason I don't support this: It would almost certainly be made extremely easy to get due to the power of the radical guns lobby in D.C.

Now, is this somewhat counter to my views on how other things, like marriage, should be respected across state lines? Sure, a bit. But at least in the specific case of marriage, that was assumed to be true constitutionally until Congress went and passed a law saying otherwise. CCW has no such assumption behind it. Am I hiding behind legal technicalities? Maybe, but meh.

616 Gus  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 7:15:38am

Is it Spring yet? [sigh]

617 Talking Point Detective  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 7:15:55am

Not sure if it's been posted - recent poll on OWS popularity (dropping):

[Link: tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com...]

It will be interesting to see if OWS can pull itself together in some way to reverse the effect of media focus on the the police confrontations and the problems with the camps.

Not sure how that might happen, given the diffuse nature of the participants. But if it doesn't, the recent spike in focus on inequality will likely recede to background noise.

Same as it ever was.

618 Obdicut  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 7:16:25am

Alright. I'm going to focus on work for awhile. My parents are going to be coming up for Thanksgiving and my wife is in a tizzy. I am literally cleaning the cracks between the floorboards with a toothpick. Good thing I'm a workaholic.

619 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 7:16:39am

Morning all!

What has happened so far today?

620 Obdicut  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 7:17:14am

re: #617 Talking Point Detective

I don't expect any group that doesn't do some good in the world to become more well liked over time. If Occupy wants to gain in popularity, they have to earn it. Protest alone won't do that, even among people who agree with them.

Now I'm really out.

621 McSpiff  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 7:17:32am

re: #602 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

As Obdi already noted, it's about the numbers, about the majority. In many parts of the country, party loyalty still has to take a back seat to ideology. Thus running a New England Democrat in the Deep South would be suicidal. This is something the GOP is in the process of learning for itself.

But if you can't trust the Blue Dogs to vote the party line, what good is having a majority?

622 Killgore Trout  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 7:18:08am

re: #617 Talking Point Detective

Not sure if it's been posted - recent poll on OWS popularity (dropping):

[Link: tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com...]

It will be interesting to see if OWS can pull itself together in some way to reverse the effect of media focus on the the police confrontations and the problems with the camps.

Not sure how that might happen, given the diffuse nature of the participants. But if it doesn't, the recent spike in focus on inequality will likely recede to background noise.

Same as it ever was.

I think the OWS brand and concept is too damaged. The same people will be back in the spring with something different.

623 Gus  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 7:18:54am

What America needs is more guns!

//

624 Talking Point Detective  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 7:19:02am

re: #608 Gus 802

Democrats are the good cops and Republicans are the bad cops. Yes, it's simplistic populism but that's the sound bite I've been using. I'm sorry but when push comes to shove the Democrats are barely on the side of the American people. Not when they, just like the Republicans in congress, have their noses in the trough of monetary influence; the revolving doors; every growing riches; insider trading; and being a part of the 1 percent elites that have ruined this nation. Ergo, Democrats are the good cops and Republicans are the bad cops. Either way you're going to get screwed.

Agreed. The problem of Democrats trying to out-Republican Republicans has led them to fail to adopt the one strategy that would work for them: differentiating their goals from the Republicans goals.

I think that the one area that could lead to real change is election finance reform.

625 Simply Sarah  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 7:20:15am

re: #621 McSpiff

But if you can't trust the Blue Dogs to vote the party line, what good is having a majority?

Well, that's a valid question. There are, however, reasons. For one, even if they vote against the party line 50% of the time, that's better than a Republican that would vote the GOP party line 80% of the time. Second, having control of a chamber allows you to largely dictate what bills come up for vote, when, how, etc. It also gives control over committees. So there are real benefits to it.

Now, is it making a deal with the devil that hurts you in the long run? That's another question altogether.

626 Talking Point Detective  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 7:20:24am

re: #622 Killgore Trout

I think the OWS brand and concept is too damaged. The same people will be back in the spring with something different.

Damn hippies!

627 AK-47%  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 7:20:36am

OWS brand? What are they selling? Are they campaigning for public office or promoting an ideology?

No, they are just out protesting, mainly against the policies and practices that govern the interaction between the US government and the financial industry.

628 Gus  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 7:21:26am

re: #624 Talking Point Detective

Agreed. The problem of Democrats trying to out-Republican Republicans has led them to fail to adopt the one strategy that would work for them: differentiating their goals from the Republicans goals.

I think that the one area that could lead to real change is election finance reform.

Campaigns could be publicly financed with every candidate getting the same limited amount. Limits could be set on private funding. This way he or she with the better brains -- more like ideas -- wins instead of he or she with the bigger campaign chest and bullshit PR and advertising winning. Something like that.

Shocking!

629 Simply Sarah  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 7:21:54am

re: #627 ralphieboy

OWS brand? What are they selling? Are they campaigning for public office or promoting an ideology?

No, they are just out protesting, mainly against the policies and practices that govern the interaction between the US government and the financial industry.

Weren't there stories a week or two back about people trying to register OWS trademarks and stuff so that they quite literally could sell OWS branded merchandise.

630 Lidane  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 7:22:40am

re: #544 Obdicut

Idiot blue dogs are endorsing the pile of craptastic failure that is the balanced budget amendment.

[Link: thinkprogress.org...]

Dear Blue Dog morons,

Please see the utter failure that is Texas. We have a $27 billion dollar budget shortfall despite having a balanced budget amendment on the books and a Republican controlled state government.

Balanced budget amendments never work. They're a stupid idea. Get over it already.

No love,
Me

631 Gus  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 7:22:51am

All roads lead to OWS.

//

632 Killgore Trout  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 7:23:53am

re: #629 Simply Sarah

Weren't there stories a week or two back about people trying to register OWS trademarks and stuff so that they quite literally could sell OWS branded merchandise.

Also the Adbusters guy is very clever at marketing and packaging ideas. OWS was a misstep but he does have campaigns that have worked pretty well. The American flag with corporate logos in place of stars is one of his icons.

633 Gus  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 7:24:22am

Kansas City Bishop Makes Deal to Avoid More Criminal Charges

KANSAS CITY, Mo. — In a deal to avoid a second round of criminal charges, a Roman Catholic bishop in Kansas City has agreed to meet monthly with a county prosecutor to detail every suspicious episode involving abuse of a child in his diocese for the next five years...

634 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 7:25:26am

re: #610 lawhawk

I see USHMM gives are very good and nuanced discussion of Majdanek, though it still places it among the killing centers, rather than "mere" concentration camps, to which it became closer after the revised death toll.

Also, the Nazis didn't ever, to my knowledge, officially (i.e. on paper) classify any camps as extermination camps.

635 AK-47%  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 7:25:37am

re: #629 Simply Sarah

I am sure of that, this is America, where everything is seen as a brand. And that is the point with OWS: it is irrelevant to say whether or not you "support" or "agree" with them because there is no unified message.

If I were in a city with an occupy protest going on, I would probably "support" it in the sense that I would go down and join in.With my own message.

636 Gus  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 7:25:39am

@nprnews NPR News
White House Shooting Suspect Reportedly Hates Obama, Washington [Link: t.co...]

637 Talking Point Detective  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 7:25:49am

re: #628 Gus 802

Campaigns could be publicly financed with every candidate getting the same limited amount. Limits could be set on private funding. This way he or she with the better brains -- more like ideas -- wins instead of he or she with the bigger campaign chest and bullshit PR and advertising winning. Something like that.

Shocking!

The news about campaign finance is very depressing:

[Link: www.npr.org...]

638 Gus  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 7:26:55am

re: #637 Talking Point Detective

The news about campaign finance is very depressing:

[Link: www.npr.org...]

Heck they went backwards. McCain-Feingold went down in flames. And then we got the Citizens United BS ruling from the SCOTUS.

639 Targetpractice  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 7:27:53am

re: #636 Gus 802

@nprnews NPR News
White House Shooting Suspect Reportedly Hates Obama, Washington [Link: t.co...]

Well, obviously he must a liberal. I mean, what conservative hates Obama and Washington?

///

640 Gus  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 7:28:05am

The way things are set up on the campaign finance front someone like Kim Kardashian can be elected into office.

// - 1/2

641 Lidane  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 7:28:38am

re: #622 Killgore Trout

I think the OWS brand and concept is too damaged.

And your role as a useful idiot anti-OWS concern troll helped that happen, at least around here. You dutifully fell for the propaganda and did the job you were supposed to, getting bogged down in the little shit while letting the issues get muddled and destroyed.

Good job.

642 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 7:28:50am

re: #640 Gus 802

The way things are set up on the campaign finance front someone like Kim Kardashian can be elected into office.

// - 1/2

Well, shoes are important!

/

643 Gus  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 7:29:02am

re: #639 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

Well, obviously he must a liberal. I mean, what conservative hates Obama and Washington?

///

Even better! He's Latino. I can see the wingers genuflecting from here.

644 Simply Sarah  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 7:29:12am

re: #637 Talking Point Detective

The news about campaign finance is very depressing:

[Link: www.npr.org...]

Oh, I'm honestly just waiting for quid pro quo "speech" to be made entirely legal. A $10,000 donation is all it takes to earn my support of your cause.

645 lawhawk  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 7:31:37am

re: #606 Obdicut

A BBA would force Congress into dealing with a hard cap on budget figures; they couldn't paper over the shortfalls and couldn't rewrite the budgets and projections in the way that they can currently (which makes even the projected supercommittee actions limited in scope to the current fiscal year - since the next Congress could come in and make all the changes it likes to restore cuts/tax cuts/hikes/etc.). After all, we had a supposed sunset date for the Bush cuts in 2010 that was extended by a later Congress (not . The 2001 tax changes were accelerated in 2003. Congress can adjust the tax code every year, and any projections made by the CBO can only take the law as in effect that year and can't project out based on changes that Congress is likely to make down the road so everyone games the CBO scoring too.

The BBA would be a handcuff on Congress and could be seen as nothing but abdication of Congress to do its job and simply force it to be a slave to a hard and fast cap.

Yet, we've seen states have all kinds of issues with their own versions of a BBA - states are required to have a balanced budget at the end of the year, and some have found all kinds of gimmicks to get around them (plus they have a federal backstop to make up the difference by transfer payments).

646 Gus  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 7:32:10am

This is what's trending on Twitter...

[Link: twitter.com...]

It's not OWS. It's not campaign financing. Etc.

The beat goes on.

647 Talking Point Detective  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 7:32:59am

re: #644 Simply Sarah

Oh, I'm honestly just waiting for quid pro quo "speech" to be made entirely legal. A $10,000 donation is all it takes to earn my support of your cause.

The distinction between that and what we have now is completely semantic. Listen to that interview.

648 Simply Sarah  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 7:34:50am

re: #647 Talking Point Detective

The distinction between that and what we have now is completely semantic. Listen to that interview.

Oh, I'm well aware. It's just that outright open corruption is still technically illegal. Right now, you have to jump through a couple simple hoops to make things fine and dandy. I mean, I suppose in a way we might be better off with it legalized. People might pay attention, then.

649 Kronocide  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 7:36:41am

Oh Twitter:

michellemalkin Michelle Malkin
Waxman: GOP is "anti-science." 'Cuz, you know, subsidizing Dem donor-backed bankrupt solar companies is "pro-science."

I can't figure out if that's pre-teen or teen logic.

650 Gus  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 7:37:20am

re: #649 BigPapa

Oh Twitter:

I can't figure out if that's pre-teen or teen logic.

Pre-skool.

651 Killgore Trout  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 7:37:58am

Ugh. these idiots are going to try to block the bridges for evening rush hour. It's like they're trying to get people to hate them.

652 Lidane  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 7:38:24am

re: #649 BigPapa

Oh Twitter:

I can't figure out if that's pre-teen or teen logic.

Neither. It's Republican logic, just like pointing at cold weather and snow as proof that AGW is a hoax.

653 AK-47%  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 7:38:29am

re: #649 BigPapa

Oh Twitter:


I can't figure out if that's pre-teen or teen logic.

The GOP has plenty of evidence of anti-science behavior without having to bring up the solar energy debacle.

654 Interesting Times  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 7:38:34am

re: #648 Simply Sarah

Oh, I'm well aware. It's just that outright open corruption is still technically illegal. Right now, you have to jump through a couple simple hoops to make things fine and dandy. I mean, I suppose in a way we might be better off with it legalized. People might pay attention, then.

Or (as I said in a prior thread), we could just force politicians to wear these.

655 Killgore Trout  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 7:39:19am

re: #641 Lidane

And your role as a useful idiot anti-OWS concern troll helped that happen, at least around here.

Heh, your ideas about my relevance and influence are greatly exaggerated.

656 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 7:39:24am

LOL. I think after Iraq debacle certain people better keep their mouths shut about failed government investments of resources.

657 Lidane  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 7:40:45am

re: #651 Killgore Trout

Who cares? The issues that OWS was meant to raise are dead and buried. All that's left is blaming the protesters for everything from slow traffic to pizza being a vegetable.

658 jaunte  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 7:41:19am

re: #656 Sergey Romanov


"Alternative energy investments are wasted taxes, but military adventures are free."

659 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 7:42:01am

re: #655 Killgore Trout

Heh, your ideas about my relevance and influence are greatly exaggerated.

I don't think your account would have survived some of its posts (like the "you endorse rape!", "fuck you, moonbats!") without you having accumulated prior good standing. Any new account with such behaviour would have been blocked by now.

660 Simply Sarah  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 7:42:07am

re: #658 jaunte

"Alternative energy investments are wasted taxes, but military adventures are free."

No, no. The investments need to go to coal and oil, since they're so hard up for cash.

661 jaunte  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 7:42:50am

re: #660 Simply Sarah

"Investing in coal and oil is like investing in my next campaign."

662 Lidane  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 7:42:50am

re: #655 Killgore Trout

Ah. So you hijack every goddamn thread on this blog with your anti-OWS concern trolling for weeks, completely poisoning the well, and now you don't have any influence or relevance at all?

663 McSpiff  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 7:43:26am

re: #659 000G

You think or you wish?

664 Killgore Trout  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 7:43:30am

re: #657 Lidane

The negative information about OWS is important to understand if you want to have a real world understanding of why cities across the country are shutting down camps. It's also important to understand why OWS managed to get a lower poll approval than the Tea Party within 8 short weeks. Suppressing that information wouldn't have helped.

665 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 7:43:33am

Wait. OWS again? *barf*

666 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 7:44:19am

re: #663 McSpiff

You think or you wish?

I wish KT would return to his senses.

667 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 7:44:20am

re: #658 jaunte

"Alternative energy investments are wasted taxes, but military adventures are free."

"Deficits don't matter."

-- Dick Cheney.

668 McSpiff  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 7:44:47am

re: #666 Sergey Romanov

I wish KT would return to his senses.

I'm sure he'd say the same about a few posters.

669 Killgore Trout  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 7:45:31am

re: #666 Sergey Romanov

I wish KT would return to his senses.

Despite my unpopularity around here I feel pretty vindicated. I was right.

670 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 7:45:42am

re: #668 McSpiff

I'm sure he'd say the same about a few posters.

Yes he would, and so?

671 Simply Sarah  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 7:45:49am

I'm not even entirely sure what the fuck everyone is really even arguing about anymore with regards to OWS.

672 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 7:46:11am

re: #669 Killgore Trout

Despite my unpopularity around here I feel pretty vindicated. I was right.

Yes, Plato Neo Alex Jones.

673 Lidane  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 7:46:36am

re: #664 Killgore Trout

It's also important to understand why OWS managed to get a lower poll approval than the Tea Party within 8 short weeks.

Oh, I understand that part perfectly. You and the other useful idiots perfectly did your jobs. You got so bogged down in all the negativity and all the little things and posted about them ad nauseum that you helped that process along.

You're an otherwise reasonable poster, but you allowed yourself to be played perfectly. Congratulations.

674 Talking Point Detective  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 7:47:28am

re: #664 Killgore Trout

The negative information about OWS is important to understand if you want to have a real world understanding of why cities across the country are shutting down camps. It's also important to understand why OWS managed to get a lower poll approval than the Tea Party within 8 short weeks. Suppressing that information wouldn't have helped.

How have your posts advanced "understanding" the negative aspects of OWS.

This is where it becomes obvious that you are overestimating your own importance.

675 Killgore Trout  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 7:47:37am

re: #671 Simply Sarah

I'm not even entirely sure what the fuck everyone is really even arguing about anymore with regards to OWS.

I think it's pretty much a settled matter but the OWS supporters are angry and trying to blame me for the failure of OWS. This will blow over but it's going to take some time.

676 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 7:48:31am

I am sure when and if OWS becomes more popular again, it will be the public's fault for not having listened to KT. Anyhow, he will remain vindicated.

//

677 Talking Point Detective  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 7:48:35am

re: #669 Killgore Trout

Despite my unpopularity around here I feel pretty vindicated. I was right.

When you said people were "supporting" rapes and stabbings?

678 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 7:49:22am

re: #669 Killgore Trout

Despite my unpopularity around here I feel pretty vindicated. I was right.

Yes, I already understood that for you it stopped being about OWS and began to be a personal vindication trip.

But you were right about what, exactly, that would justify a feeling of vindication?

679 Killgore Trout  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 7:49:33am

re: #673 Lidane

I had no influence on local governments and businesses who were hurt by the rising costs of OWS camps. I have no influence over the general population who've soured on OWS as they learned more about the movement. I have no influence.

680 Lidane  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 7:49:33am

re: #675 Killgore Trout

Don't flatter yourself. You're just one of many useful idiots who got played, and who did the job you were supposed to do.

681 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 7:49:35am

re: #675 Killgore Trout

I think it's pretty much a settled matter but the OWS supporters are angry and trying to blame me for the failure of OWS. This will blow over but it's going to take some time.

Your absolutely disgusting behaviour towards other posters here will not be forgotten, and unless you apologize or walk it back, I don't see why it would be forgiven, either.

682 Talking Point Detective  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 7:49:46am

re: #675 Killgore Trout

I think it's pretty much a settled matter but the OWS supporters are angry and trying to blame me for the failure of OWS. This will blow over but it's going to take some time.

I think that people are blaming you for your inane posts. Who else should they hold responsible for that?

683 NJDhockeyfan  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 7:50:28am

OWS moobat protester who threatened to throw a Molotov cocktail at Macy’s has been arrested.

Police Arrest Occupy Wall Street Protester For Allegedly Making A Terroristic Threat

NEW YORK (CBSNewYork) – Police say an Occupy Wall Street protester has been arrested after being seen on a YouTube video talking about throwing a Molotov cocktail at Macy’s.

“They got guns, we got bottles. They got bricks, we got rocks. Lets see what they got,” says the man in the video. “I want them to make that decision so that they can see, in a few days, you’re going to see what a Molotov cocktail can do to Macy’s.”

Police say the man been identified as 29 year-old Nkrumah Tinsley. He’s charged with making a terroristic threat, which is a Class D Felony.

Officials say Tinsley was also charged with assaulting a cop last month during an Occupy protest.

684 Lidane  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 7:51:12am

re: #679 Killgore Trout

Except that here on LGF, you did your job perfectly. You completely poisoned the well and ignored the issues being raised by OWS.

Congratulations.

685 Talking Point Detective  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 7:52:19am

re: #679 Killgore Trout

I had no influence on local governments and businesses who were hurt by the rising costs of OWS camps. I have no influence over the general population who've soured on OWS as they learned more about the movement. I have no influence.

I thought that you said that your posts promoted "understanding."

It seems that you are alternately claiming that you do and don't have influence.

Please explain.

686 Lidane  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 7:53:34am

re: #683 NJDhockeyfan

ZOMG! One guy did something stupid and rightly got arrested for it! The entire OWS movement is a farce!

Good job, propaganda monkey.

687 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 7:54:39am

Another thread revolving around KT instead of topic OWS?

Really?

What we learned, IMHO, from OWS is that the majority of American's are by definition the 99%. Even those who are doing well.

We are ALL Labor.

We are ALL workers.

I think they did a good job of that.

688 Gus  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 7:56:18am

re: #665 Sergey Romanov

Wait. OWS again? *barf*

Don't look at me!

//

689 Lidane  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 7:57:07am

re: #687 ggt

To what end?

So what if people realize those things if nothing is ever going to change? Who cares if people realize that they might be part of labor, or workers or whatever if the injustices that were supposed to be highlighted are never addressed?

690 lawhawk  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 7:57:15am

re: #688 Gus 802

Wasn't me!

691 Simply Sarah  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 7:57:26am

re: #669 Killgore Trout

Despite my unpopularity around here I feel pretty vindicated. I was right.

See, this seems to be the cause of most of the friction. Here's my take:

At the start, you seemed to largely go after OWS out of worries that it was a pawn (Or would become a pawn) of Adbusters/black bloc/other extremist movements. As time has gone on and it seems this largely didn't happen and much of it seemed to morph into some sort of neo-hippie type thing (Along with some of the issues that can appear when you have makeshift camps without clear leadership or authority), you've more focused on the negative occurrences happening there. It really seems that, even with the main treat you first saw having largely not come to fruition, you're intent on going after the entire diverse movement, if you can call it that, for one reason or another, often ignoring debates on the merits of the various messages coming out of it. As in, you seem more interested in being "right" about how terrible the movement is than looking at the issues it has raised.

This is what seems to be bothering people the most. If you were to say "It's some silly hippies wasting their time and not getting anything done on the issues they say they support" and be done with it, people would likely move on even if they disagreed strongly. But you honestly seem intent of pushing the entire thing as being actually malevolent in some sense, which clearly is off putting to much of the membership here.

692 Talking Point Detective  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 7:57:44am

Did everyone see the recent post where Killgore says that he supports rapes and stabbings?

693 Talking Point Detective  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 7:58:27am

re: #692 Talking Point Detective

Did everyone see the recent post where Killgore says that he supports rapes and stabbings?

Oh. Wait. I "missed the nuance of his language."

My bad.

694 Simply Sarah  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 7:59:40am

re: #691 Simply Sarah

Man, I wish I was better at being clear and concise.

695 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 7:59:49am

re: #684 Lidane

Not even just that. goddamnedfrank nailed it pretty much:

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]
[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]
[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]
[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]
[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]
[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

PS:

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]
[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

696 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 8:00:05am

re: #689 Lidane

To what end?

So what if people realize those things if nothing is ever going to change? Who cares if people realize that they might be part of labor, or workers or whatever if the injustices that were supposed to be highlighted are never addressed?

Well, it certainly changed my perspective.

697 Kronocide  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 8:00:23am

It's fucking trollarama. Let's just call it what it is.

698 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 8:00:58am

WEll, you guys work it out.

I'm out of here.

699 Talking Point Detective  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 8:01:23am

re: #694 Simply Sarah

Man, I wish I was better at being clear and concise.

Sometimes concision and clarity don't work together. Your post was very clear.

700 Lidane  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 8:02:47am

re: #696 ggt

Well, it certainly changed my perspective.

Changing a perspective is fine, but it's ultimately useless if no concrete changes happen because of it.

It doesn't matter if people realize they're part of the 99%, or workers, or laborers, or that income inequality is a bad thing, or that there is real, malevolent corruption in congress and in the financial sector if nothing ever changes.

701 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 8:03:19am

re: #675 Killgore Trout

I think it's pretty much a settled matter but the OWS supporters are angry and trying to blame me for the failure of OWS. This will blow over but it's going to take some time.

How quaint! Of course it's all about failure of OWS, not about this, this, this, this, this... Never happened. We were always at war with Eastasia.

702 Sionainn  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 8:03:24am

re: #694 Simply Sarah

Man, I wish I was better at being clear and concise.

I thought you did a fine job summing up the issue.

703 Talking Point Detective  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 8:03:31am

re: #695 000G

Not even just that. goddamnedfrank nailed it pretty much:

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]
[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]
[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]
[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]
[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]
[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

PS:

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]
[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

Each and every one nailed it.

704 Simply Sarah  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 8:03:32am

re: #689 Lidane

To what end?

So what if people realize those things if nothing is ever going to change? Who cares if people realize that they might be part of labor, or workers or whatever if the injustices that were supposed to be highlighted are never addressed?

Granted, but generally you need to be made aware of a problem before you can properly address it. So people realizing those things is a first step. It's not a solution in itself, but it's required before real change can occur. But you're right, the next steps need to be taken for the realizations to truly come to anything.

705 Simply Sarah  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 8:05:18am

re: #699 Talking Point Detective

Sometimes concision and clarity don't work together. Your post was very clear.

re: #702 Sionainn

I thought you did a fine job summing up the issue.

Well, if y'all say so. ^^;

706 Gus  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 8:05:32am

re: #701 Sergey Romanov

How quaint! Of course it's all about failure of OWS, not about this, this, this, this, this... Never happened. We were always at war with Eastasia.

Youtube Video
707 lawhawk  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 8:05:58am

OT:
Wizard of Oz' Munchkin Karl Slover dies at 93, and was one of the last surviving members of the cast of munchkins (or any cast members at that):

Slover was best known for playing the lead trumpeter in the Munchkins' band but also had roles as a townsman and soldier in the film, said John Fricke, author of "100 Years of Oz" and five other books on the movie and its star, Judy Garland. Slover was one of the tiniest male Munchkins in the movie.

But perhaps the most interesting part of the obituary is what he endured at the hands of his father in an attempt to make him taller (and would now be considered massive child abuse):

Slover was born Karl Kosiczky in what is now the Czech Republic and he was the only child in his family to be dwarf sized.

"In those uninformed days, his father tried witch doctor treatments to make him grow," Fricke said. "Knowing Karl and his triumph over his early life, you can't help but celebrate the man at a time like this."

He was buried in the backyard, immersed in heated oil until his skin blistered and then attached to a stretching machine at a hospital, all in the attempt to make him become taller. Eventually he was sold by his father at age 9 to a traveling show in Europe, Fricke said.

708 Killgore Trout  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 8:06:19am

re: #683 NJDhockeyfan

OWS moobat protester who threatened to throw a Molotov cocktail at Macy’s has been arrested.

Police Arrest Occupy Wall Street Protester For Allegedly Making A Terroristic Threat

Propaganda! If only this information could be suppressed OWS would be awesome!
/

709 Lidane  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 8:07:18am

re: #704 Simply Sarah

Granted, but generally you need to be made aware of a problem before you can properly address it. So people realizing those things is a first step. It's not a solution in itself, but it's required before real change can occur. But you're right, the next steps need to be taken for the realizations to truly come to anything.

The problem is, those next steps will probably never happen.

OWS should have highlighted all those things. Instead, it got turned into a bunch of lazy, dirty hippies who didn't want to work for anything and who are somehow Marxist terrorists and who deserve a fate worse than death for slowing down traffic and making pizza a vegetable.

The narrative worked perfectly. People focused on the negative, the well got poisoned, and now people hate OWS while the same corrupt practices that led to the protests in the first place have been ignored and will go on indefinitely.

710 Killgore Trout  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 8:07:32am

"Whose park? Aardvark!"

711 Killgore Trout  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 8:08:00am

Hippies attacking the barricades in the park.

712 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 8:08:47am

re: #709 Lidane

now people hate OWS while the same corrupt practices that led to the protests in the first place have been ignored and will go on indefinitely.

It's OWS' fault for not doing the same thing everybody else has been doing.

713 Lidane  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 8:08:56am

re: #708 Killgore Trout

Actually asking for the issues to be addressed =/= wanting information suppressed. But keep believing you're just a dutiful reporter being martyred on the cross of objectivity.

714 jaunte  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 8:09:06am

re: #707 lawhawk

He was buried in the backyard, immersed in heated oil until his skin blistered and then attached to a stretching machine at a hospital, all in the attempt to make him become taller. Eventually he was sold by his father at age 9 to a traveling show in Europe, Fricke said.

Reading about parents of just a few generations ago, it's amazing everyone isn't even more screwed up than they are.

715 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 8:10:52am

re: #713 Lidane

Actually asking for the issues to be addressed =/= wanting information suppressed. But keep believing you're just a dutiful reporter being martyred on the cross of objectivity.

Us pesky leftists are supressors! Asking others to discuss real issues is censorship! Why must we turn everything into a popularity contest?

///

This is why people believe net neutrality is the end of freedom of expression on the internet.

716 Talking Point Detective  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 8:11:08am

Interesting:

After two men wearing suits were allowed to pass through a police barricade at the corner of Pine and William Streets, one protester said, “There’s a dress code for this intersection?”

[Link: cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com...]

717 Interesting Times  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 8:12:39am

re: #714 jaunte

Reading about parents of just a few generations ago, it's amazing everyone isn't even more screwed up than they are.

Didn't those parents spawn the largest percentage of the current congressional and business elite? Case closed :/

718 Talking Point Detective  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 8:13:02am

re: #708 Killgore Trout

Propaganda! If only this information could be suppressed OWS would be awesome!
/

It's clear that your only interest is in doubling-down.

IMO, you have no credibility on this issue.

None.

719 makeitstop  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 8:13:55am

re: #685 Talking Point Detective

I thought that you said that your posts promoted "understanding."

It seems that you are alternately claiming that you do and don't have influence.

Please explain.

It's the same as OWS either being entirely populated by drug addicts and criminals or trust fund kids who went to OWS instead of wintering on the Riviera.

It changes depending on which version supports his narrative.
/

720 Gus  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 8:13:58am

re: #643 Gus 802

Even better! He's Latino. I can see the wingers genuflecting from here.

And we have a winner!

@AlanColmes Alan Colmes
Limbaugh On White House Shooter: Hispanic Name So “Obviously A Democrat”
[Link: colm.es...] #p2

721 Kronocide  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 8:14:31am

Shark, Jumped.

722 McSpiff  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 8:14:49am

re: #716 Talking Point Detective

Interesting:

[Link: cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com...]

Report I heard was that police were checking for work ID. You have that, you got a pass.

723 CuriousLurker  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 8:14:56am

The Other Side

One day a young Buddhist on his journey home came to the banks of a wide river. Staring hopelessly at the great obstacle in front of him, he pondered for hours on just how to cross such a wide barrier. Just as he was about to give up his pursuit to continue his journey he saw a great teacher on the other side of the river. The young Buddhist yells over to the teacher, "Oh wise one, can you tell me how to get to the other side of this river"?

The teacher ponders for a moment looks up and down the river and yells back, "My son, you are on the other side".

Dalai Lama Quotes

Be kind whenever possible. It is always possible.

If you can, help others; if you cannot do that, at least do not harm them.

In the practice of tolerance, one's enemy is the best teacher.

Whether one believes in a religion or not, and whether one believes in rebirth or not, there isn't anyone who doesn't appreciate kindness and compassion.

724 Targetpractice  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 8:15:47am

re: #720 Gus 802

And we have a winner!

@AlanColmes Alan Colmes
Limbaugh On White House Shooter: Hispanic Name So “Obviously A Democrat”
[Link: colm.es...] #p2

*deadpan* Surprise, surprise.

725 Daniel Ballard  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 8:15:56am

re: #709 Lidane

The problem is, those next steps will probably never happen.

OWS should have highlighted all those things. Instead, it got turned into a bunch of lazy, dirty hippies who didn't want to work for anything and who are somehow Marxist terrorists and who deserve a fate worse than death for slowing down traffic and making pizza a vegetable.

The narrative worked perfectly. People focused on the negative, the well got poisoned, and now people hate OWS while the same corrupt practices that led to the protests in the first place have been ignored and will go on indefinitely.

QFT!

726 NJDhockeyfan  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 8:16:54am

re: #708 Killgore Trout

Propaganda! If only this information could be suppressed OWS would be awesome!
/

Hey, it's one person!
//

727 Gus  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 8:17:07am

re: #724 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

*deadpan* Surprise, surprise.

Gomer Pyle voice. ;)

728 lawhawk  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 8:17:55am

More news about the MF Global debacle. Turns out that one of the items that led to the financial firm going bankrupt was a change in the rule done in December 2000 that allowed these kinds of firms to expand where they could invest their own money.

Before 2000, the rule permitted futures brokers to take money from their customers' accounts and invest it in a number of approved securities limited to "obligations of the United States and obligations fully guaranteed as to principal and interest by the United States [U.S. government securities], and general obligations of any State or of any political subdivision thereof [municipal securities.]" That is, relatively safe securities with high liquidity.

Riskier investments

The banks, however, pushed the CFTC to expand the investment options that would allow firms to practice "internal repo." In this scheme, money is taken from customer accounts and invested short-term in a variety of securities, with the futures brokers reaping the not-insignificant financial rewards from their customers' money.

And, lo and behold, such efforts were successful. In December 2000, the CFTC agreed to amend Regulation 1.25 "to permit investments in general obligations issued by any enterprise sponsored by the United States, bank certificates of deposit, commercial paper, corporate notes, general obligations of a sovereign nation, and interests in money market mutual funds" — in other words, riskier investments that could make more money for Wall Street.

Then, in February 2004 and May 2005, Regulation 1.25 was further amended and refined to the liking of Ferber and the banks. In the end, the door was opened for firms such as MF Global to do internal repos of customers' deposits and invest the funds in the "general obligations of a sovereign nation."

This practice, of course, may well be the centerpiece of the MF Global disaster. We now know that Corzine — who was CEO of Goldman Sachs from 1994 to 1999 — bet $6.3 billion on the distressed long-term bonds of countries such as Italy and Spain, although it's unclear if clients' funds were used. Bart Chilton, a CFTC commissioner, told Bloomberg News on Nov. 10 that the loss to customers' accounts may have resulted from a "massive hide-and-seek ploy."

Time to turn back the clock on those regulations and reinstate them to the pre-2000 rule, which not only protected the customer accounts, but limited the bank/financial firm exposures to sovereign debt crises.

729 Gus  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 8:18:02am

re: #726 NJDhockeyfan

Hey, it's one person priest!
//

FTFY

//

730 Talking Point Detective  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 8:18:48am

re: #722 McSpiff

Report I heard was that police were checking for work ID. You have that, you got a pass.

Still problematic. On what constitutional basis can the police check for your work ID before allowing you to walk on a city street?

The situation is a problem, but it really does elevate the very issue that is animating OWS. The system is set up to protect the interests of the 1% at the expense of the 99%.

731 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 8:18:56am

re: #726 NJDhockeyfan

Hey, it's one person!
//

Don't be an OWS apologist. Obviously this guy represents all of OWS.

//

732 Simply Sarah  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 8:19:24am

re: #709 Lidane

The problem is, those next steps will probably never happen.

OWS should have highlighted all those things. Instead, it got turned into a bunch of lazy, dirty hippies who didn't want to work for anything and who are somehow Marxist terrorists and who deserve a fate worse than death for slowing down traffic and making pizza a vegetable.

The narrative worked perfectly. People focused on the negative, the well got poisoned, and now people hate OWS while the same corrupt practices that led to the protests in the first place have been ignored and will go on indefinitely.

Well, that's the nature of attacking entrenched privilege. All of this really was to be expected and, if the movement is going to get anywhere, it'll have to find a way to counter that narrative. Is it fair? Hell no, but it's sadly how things tend to work.

733 jaunte  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 8:19:33am

re: #709 Lidane

The narrative worked perfectly. People focused on the negative, the well got poisoned, and now people hate OWS while the same corrupt practices that led to the protests in the first place have been ignored and will go on indefinitely.

I think the people who have suffered serious losses because of the mismanagement and corruption which led to the banking crisis far outnumber those who have been inconvenienced by the disruptive tactics of OWS.

734 Gus  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 8:19:33am

Limbaugh Asks If White House Shooting Suspect Used "Fast And Furious" Gun Because He Has "History Of Drug Problems," "Hispanic Name"

Media Matters Video
735 Gus  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 8:20:36am

And another winner!

@Drudge_Report Drudge Report
CAIN: 'How do you say 'delicious' in Cuban?'
[Link: drudge.tw...]

736 Daniel Ballard  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 8:20:55am

That irrelevant Occupy thing has again filled my sky with news helicopters. On the march to a bank I'm told.

737 Gus  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 8:21:06am

Yes. Obama once said something about the "Austrian language."

Before Sergey reminds me. ;)

738 Targetpractice  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 8:21:09am

re: #734 Gus 802

Limbaugh Asks If White House Shooting Suspect Used "Fast And Furious" Gun Because He Has "History Of Drug Problems," "Hispanic Name"

[Link: mediamatters.org...]

*facepalm*

739 Simply Sarah  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 8:22:18am

re: #735 Gus 802

And another winner!

@Drudge_Report Drudge Report
CAIN: 'How do you say 'delicious' in Cuban?'
[Link: drudge.tw...]

Pfft. Cain is the flavour of last month. Newt is the new saviour of the right, at least for this week.

740 Lidane  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 8:22:24am

re: #733 jaunte

I think the people who have suffered serious losses because of the mismanagement and corruption which led to the banking crisis far outnumber those who have been inconvenienced by the disruptive tactics of OWS.

Oh, but we can't mention that. We have to keep the focus on the lazy, dirty hippies at OWS who support rape and who don't want to work for anything in life.

741 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 8:22:32am

re: #737 Gus 802

You!

//
*manhug*

742 Gus  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 8:24:24am

re: #739 Simply Sarah

Pfft. Cain is the flavour of last month. Newt is the new saviour of the right, at least for this week.

@TPM Talking Points Memo
GOP primary voters trust Gingrich most with nukes: [Link: t.co...]

743 Targetpractice  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 8:26:16am

re: #742 Gus 802

@TPM Talking Points Memo
GOP primary voters trust Gingrich most with nukes: [Link: t.co...]

Might want to be careful. Being that close to the "football" may drive him into a mating frenzy.

//

744 Lidane  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 8:26:27am

re: #742 Gus 802

@TPM Talking Points Memo
GOP primary voters trust Gingrich most with nukes: [Link: t.co...]

How is Newt relevant in 2011? WTF.

745 Obdicut  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 8:27:26am

Well, so much for all my work work. Someone fucked up this documentation like they were getting paid to do it. I can't make head or tail of it.

It was probably someone from Occupy.

746 William Barnett-Lewis  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 8:27:52am

re: #569 Rightwingconspirator

Few have more sympathy for cops than I do. Heck, I have taken some heat around here for that you may recall. But when you look at how other complicated matters have been dealt with from state vehicle code differences to the whole penal code, dealing with CCW is far from the thickest problem. It's just about a well crafted law (have not read the current draft) and of course a time period & training resources for cops to learn the new law.

Cops must be able to adjust to new laws and changes in laws their whole career. This is just another. Many states already have reciprocity. Those states have dealt with it. What's wrong with the rest of them?

Lot of cops here in Wisconsin have had to shift gears on weapon carry since November 1. They have managed and so too would cops elsewhere. This will have a bigger effect on the states that like to play the May Issue game where you only get a permit if you're rich &/or famous. DC & Illinois, alas, would not be effected until they join the rest of the country.

Personally, I just wish my permit would get here (DOJ is pretty backed up at the moment ;) & I can get my new to me Gen 2 Glock 19 that I have on layaway paid off :D

747 Gus  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 8:28:16am

re: #743 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

Might want to be careful. Being that close to the "football" may drive him into a mating frenzy.

//

You might something like Newt Gingrich and his nuclear football rage boner against Iran?

//

748 wrenchwench  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 8:29:08am

I read an obituary this week of a guy who lived to age 97, an accomplishment in itself. It said he was survived by his wife of 77 years, indicating another accomplishment. But I couldn't help snickering a little when I got to the part that said, "He was preceded in death by his parents..."

Here's the photo that was with it.

749 Targetpractice  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 8:29:57am

re: #747 Gus 802

You might something like Newt Gingrich and his nuclear football rage boner against Iran?

//

Being that close to the power of America's nuclear arsenal may send his "love" of his country into overdrive. Who knows, he might go through two wives in the first term alone.

//

750 Daniel Ballard  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 8:30:27am

re: #746 wlewisiii

The only way to get CCW here is sue for it. Then in a year they refuse to renew and the whole thing starts all over. Very few people lose in court. Some even get the court to order the permit renewed unless there is cause to not renew. Stinks.

751 Gus  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 8:30:52am

re: #749 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

Being that close to the power of America's nuclear arsenal may send his "love" of his country into overdrive. Who knows, he might go through two wives in the first term alone.

//

Yeah. I knew what you were referring to. I wonder if he'll get a new wife if he wins the nomination.

I'm trying to picture Newt mating. //

752 Wozza Matter?  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 8:31:00am

re: #739 Simply Sarah

Pfft. Cain is the flavour of last month. Newt is the new saviour of the right, at least for this week.

Oh, lordy.

Newt/Cain ticket...... "Divorcey McGrabby"
Obama/Biden ticket..... "FamilyMan McTeatotal"

753 makeitstop  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 8:31:09am

re: #743 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

Might want to be careful. Being that close to the "football" may drive him into a mating frenzy.

//

Ew. Emphatic ew.

754 Lidane  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 8:31:40am

re: #749 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

Being that close to the power of America's nuclear arsenal may send his "love" of his country into overdrive. Who knows, he might go through two wives in the first term alone.

//

That's an awful lot of money spent at Tiffany.

755 Targetpractice  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 8:31:49am

re: #751 Gus 802

Yeah. I knew what you were referring to. I wonder if he'll get a new wife if he wins the nomination.

I'm trying to picture Newt mating. //

...BRAIN BLEACH!

756 Gus  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 8:32:11am

re: #752 wozzablog

Oh, lordy.

Newt/Cain ticket... "Divorcey MGrabby"
Obama/Biden ticket... "FamilyMan McTeatotal"

Brain fart here. It should be Obama/Clinton for 2012. Just a thought. This way she could be prepped for 2016.

Now I must smoke a cigarette.

757 Wozza Matter?  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 8:32:23am

re: #744 Lidane

How is Newt relevant in 2011? WTF.

Because the base is stuck in 1951...

758 Talking Point Detective  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 8:32:31am

re: #745 Obdicut

Well, so much for all my work work. Someone fucked up this documentation like they were getting paid to do it. I can't make head or tail of it.

It was probably someone from Occupy.

Not just any old person from Occupy - too serious a problem. A hippie from Occupy most likely. Only hippies can be devious to that extent.

759 Gus  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 8:33:05am

re: #757 wozzablog

Because the base is stuck in 1951 1551...

FTFY

760 Wozza Matter?  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 8:33:55am

re: #758 Talking Point Detective

Not just any old person from Occupy - too serious a problem. A hippie from Occupy most likely. Only hippies can be devious to that extent.

Hippies are only devious in one pursuit.... that of MUNCHIES!

761 Obdicut  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 8:34:10am

re: #758 Talking Point Detective

As a Bay Area (former) resident, to me a hippie is someone overcharging for glassware.

762 Lidane  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 8:34:26am

re: #758 Talking Point Detective

Not just any old person from Occupy - too serious a problem. A hippie from Occupy most likely. Only hippies can be devious to that extent.

Nah. More like a violent, drug addicted, rape-supporting, trust fund Marxist hippie who is lazy and doesn't want to work. They're the most devious ones of all.

763 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 8:34:35am

re: #756 Gus 802

I think Obdi has the right idea. Elizabeth Warren 2016!

764 darthstar  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 8:34:48am

I've seen motorcycles with side-cars, but never a moped with a side-bus!...yes, I could take both dogs to the beach in that.

765 Gus  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 8:35:42am

re: #761 Obdicut

As a Bay Area (former) resident, to me a hippie is someone overcharging for glassware.

RWCC is really a hippie?

//

766 Daniel Ballard  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 8:36:02am

Occupy has 1000+ marching at 4th & fig. The anarchists are provoking trouble, but just managing to get arrested. the crowd is being described as union workers and middle class folks. Reported by AM 1070 Los Angeles

767 Obdicut  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 8:36:13am

Hint to whoever wrote this documentation I'm trying to work from: The book has 24 pages. You know that. So didn't you find it odd that there was text only scripted for pages two and three?

768 makeitstop  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 8:36:25am

re: #760 wozzablog

Hippies are only devious in one pursuit... that of MUNCHIES!

And raping and stabbing, also.
/

769 Wozza Matter?  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 8:36:32am

re: #763 Sergey Romanov

I think Obdi has the right idea. Elizabeth Warren 2016!

Agreed.

770 Wozza Matter?  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 8:37:16am

re: #768 makeitstop

And raping and stabbing, also.
/

That's what I hear.

Over and over and over and over and over and over again.

771 Obdicut  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 8:37:50am

re: #770 wozzablog

You can't just stab once. It messes up the spreadsheets.

772 Lidane  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 8:38:44am

re: #766 Rightwingconspirator

The crowd is being descibed as union workers and middle class folks. Reported by AM 1070 Los Angeles

LIES! Everyone knows the only people at Occupy protests are dirty, violent hippies who like to rape and stabby stab.

773 Wozza Matter?  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 8:40:00am

re: #772 Lidane


from MM

Salon's Alex Pareene watched two days of Fox News' coverage of Occupy Wall Street then writes about what he learned. In short, he learned that #FoxIsNotNews


I watched two days of Fox News coverage of OWS

[Link: www.salon.com...]

774 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 8:40:29am

I don't use IPhone. I have naturally stabby fingers.//

775 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 8:41:59am

re: #774 Sergey Romanov

I don't use IPhone. I have naturally stabby fingers.//

(But otherwise I'm a sweet guy. Image: freddy-krueger.jpg )

776 Daniel Ballard  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 8:42:24am

re: #772 Lidane

Heh. Some commuters are feeling rather stabby.

777 Wozza Matter?  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 8:43:53am

re: #776 Rightwingconspirator

Heh. Some commuters are feeling rather stabby.

Capitalists are allowed to be.

778 Gus  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 8:44:03am

re: #774 Sergey Romanov

I don't use IPhone. I have naturally stabby fingers.//

Edward Stabby Fingers

779 CuriousLurker  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 8:44:13am

Those of you who earnestly supported the good things that OWS has been trying to accomplish should try not to feel bitter. To have aspiration for good, even if it got frustrated this time around, is better than to fall into uncaring cynicism, IMHO. There's always hope. Without it we might as well be dead. Let the scoffers enjoy their scoffing—it changes nothing...unless you let it.

The Old Woman Who Wanted to Buy Joseph

It is said that when they sold Joseph to the Egyptians the latter treated him kindly. There were many buyers so the merchants priced him at from five to ten times his weight in musk. Meanwhile, in a state of agitation, an old woman ran up, and going among the buyers said to an Egyptian: "Let me buy the Canaanite, for I long to possess that young man. I have spun ten spools of thread to pay for him so take them and give me Joseph and say no more about it."

The merchants smiled and said: "Your simplicity has misled you. This unique pearl is not for you; they have already offered a hundred treasures for him. How can you bid against them with your spools of thread?" The old woman, looking into their faces, said: "I know very well that you will not sell him for so little, but it is enough for me that my friends and enemies will say, 'this old woman has been among those who wished to buy Joseph'."

He who is without aspiration will never reach the boundless kingdom. Possessed of this lofty ambition a great prince regarded his worldly kingdom as ashes. When he realized the emptiness of temporal royalty, he decided that spiritual royalty was worth a thousand kingdoms of the world.

The Conference of the Birds: A Sufi Fable
Shambhala Publications, Boston © 1993.

780 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 8:45:01am

Dear Charles,

May I please please change my nic to Ms. Rapey McStabby?

It would close the circle for me at least.

781 Kronocide  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 8:45:16am

My attempt to derail this 239th thread on OWS with a new Primus video.

782 Daniel Ballard  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 8:45:21am

re: #779 CuriousLurker

Thanks. But I'm not bitter. It is not yet over.

783 Gus  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 8:46:32am

Image: 249592860-10125526.jpg

784 CuriousLurker  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 8:46:53am

re: #782 Rightwingconspirator

Thanks. But I'm not bitter. It is not yet over.

I know, but I think some people are. This is for them.

785 Targetpractice  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 8:47:33am

re: #783 Gus 802

Image: 249592860-10125526.jpg

...anybody needs me, I'll be gouging my eyes out.

///

786 jaunte  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 8:47:36am

re: #773 wozzablog

Good report on the Fox opinionewsing method.

...here’s what I learned about Occupy Wall Street and its related movements across the nation: They are gross.
.....
So after two days of the supposedly “news”-based Fox News programming, I now know that the entire Occupy movement is mostly about their right to vomit and defecate wherever they like. And it threatens to become violent — deadly violent! — at literally any moment.

I imagine coverage of this sort — the “grossness” of the entire thing, with any discussion of the movement’s aims or goals entirely absent — is a large part of what made public opinion of the Occupy movement grow slightly sour. [Link: www.salon.com...]

787 Killgore Trout  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 8:47:58am

Watching the live stream posted at hot air. The crowd is marching back to wall street following the red and black flag. the camera man aksed what the flag meant and the protested said it's an ancient greek symbol of hunger and social change. The flag really means...

The red-and-black flag is the symbol of the anarcho-syndicalist and anarcho-communist movements. Black is the traditional color of anarchism, and red is the traditional color of socialism. The red-and-black flag combines the two colors in equal parts, with a simple diagonal split. Typically, the red section is placed on the top-left corner, with the black on the bottom-right corner of the flag. This symbolizes the co-existence of anarchist and socialist ideals within the anarcho-syndicalism movement, and to symbolize the more socialistic means of the movement leading to a more anarchistic end.

I wonder how much people really understand what they're doing.

788 Gus  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 8:48:23am

re: #785 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

...anybody needs me, I'll be gouging my eyes out.

///

The fun has just begun!

[Link: summerredneckgames.com...]

789 Daniel Ballard  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 8:48:25am

Wow. hey the OccupyLA Livestream is running my interview in part with Lisa. that's pretty cool.

[Link: www.livestream.com...]

790 makeitstop  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 8:48:38am

re: #783 Gus 802

Oh, dude. Now I gotta postpone lunch...

791 Lidane  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 8:48:52am

re: #779 CuriousLurker

Those of you who earnestly supported the good things that OWS has been trying to accomplish should try not to feel bitter. To have aspiration for good, even if it got frustrated this time around, is better than to fall into uncaring cynicism, IMHO. There's always hope. Without it we might as well be dead. Let the scoffers enjoy their scoffing—it changes nothing...unless you let it.

I might get there eventually, but not for a good long while.

At this point, the whole concept behind OWS has been so thoroughly corrupted and poisoned that I don't see how anything will change. The haters won, the useful idiot anti-OWS concern trolls did their jobs, and the same malevolent practices that led to the protests in the first place are being dutifully ignored. Again.

Oh, but someone at OWS got arrested! That's how you know the whole idea behind it is a farce. =P

792 Lidane  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 8:49:54am

re: #787 Killgore Trout

I wonder how much people really understand what they're doing.

Says the person watching a live feed from Hot Air. ROFL.

793 wrenchwench  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 8:50:36am

re: #785 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

...anybody needs me, I'll be gouging my eyes out.

///

Did you notice that you no longer have a comma when you do an upding? I kinda miss it. One from you and one from OCIHACOSP and one could think one has hit the jackpot!

794 Obdicut  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 8:52:05am

re: #787 Killgore Trout

If they have no idea of the significance of the flag, what they're 'really' doing is not supporting anarchist socialism.

795 McSpiff  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 8:52:12am

re: #730 Talking Point Detective

Still problematic. On what constitutional basis can the police check for your work ID before allowing you to walk on a city street?

The situation is a problem, but it really does elevate the very issue that is animating OWS. The system is set up to protect the interests of the 1% at the expense of the 99%.

No idea about American legality, just relaying what I heard

796 Reverend Mother Ramallo  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 8:52:21am

Ohre: #783 Gus 802

Oh. Dear. Gawd.
I'm gonna hang this pic on my fridge after Thanksgiving...

797 CuriousLurker  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 8:52:26am

re: #791 Lidane

The haters won...

They may have won this battle, but that's it.

798 Killgore Trout  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 8:52:29am

re: #792 Lidane

Says the person watching a live feed from Hot Air. ROFL.

It's a lefty feed. It's hosted by [Link: www.ustream.tv...]

The camera man is very supportive of the protesters.

799 Kronocide  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 8:52:47am

re: #787 Killgore Trout

Watching the live stream posted at hot air. The crowd is marching back to wall street following the red and black flag. the camera man aksed what the flag meant and the protested said it's an ancient greek symbol of hunger and social change. The flag really means...

I wonder how much people really understand what they're doing.

I don't. Most people don't know their flags, especially something as obscure as an anti capitalist anarchist flag. Nazi, American, Stars and Bars, sure.

But it's a 'populist' movement. They're marching for OWS or what they believe OWS to be, not for anarchism (except for the real anarchists). But you knew that.

800 Lidane  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 8:52:58am

re: #794 Obdicut

If they have no idea of the significance of the flag, what they're 'really' doing is not supporting anarchist socialism.

Stop bringing reality into the discussion. You're fucking up the narrative.

801 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 8:53:10am

[Link: www.nypost.com...]

Pilot locked in lavatory causes unnecessary terror scare

A pilot who accidentally locked himself in the bathroom of his LaGuardia-bound plane caused a terror scare last night when a helpful passenger with an accent tried to come to his rescue by banging on the cockpit door.

[...]

A well-intentioned passenger sitting in the front row heard his thumping and hurried over to help.

Relieved, the pilot told the passenger to go to the cockpit and alert the crew to his plight.

But crew members didn’t react well to the unexpected visit from a stranger trying to breach the highly secure area of the plane.

The jittery co-pilot — at the controls and wondering why his boss’ bathroom break was taking forever — thought the unfamiliar accent was Middle Eastern, a source told The Post.

Practically stammering, he quickly radioed air traffic control.

“We are 180 knots 10,000 [feet] uh, can we leave the frequency for a minute? We are going to try to, uh contact dispatch,” he said.

“The captain disappeared in the back, and, uh, I have someone with a thick foreign accent trying to access the cockpit.”

Even after the passenger explained through the door that the captain was locked in the john, the co-pilot was still suspicious.

“What I’m being told is he’s stuck in the lav [lavatory], and, uh, someone with a thick foreign accent is giving me a password to access the cockpit,” he said.

[...]

The captain finally extricated himself and told his colleagues all was well.

Before that happened fighter planes were alerted, although they were never scrambled.

1. Fire the stupid fuck.

2. Racial profiling works, uh, yeah.

802 Sheila Broflovski  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 8:54:44am

re: #783 Gus 802

Image: 249592860-10125526.jpg

That is so NSFW. You should have put a warning on it.

803 Killgore Trout  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 8:54:49am

re: #799 BigPapa

I don't. Most people don't know their flags, especially something as obscure as an anti capitalist anarchist flag. Nazi, American, Stars and Bars, sure.

But it's a 'populist' movement. They're marching for OWS or what they believe OWS to be, not for anarchism (except for the real anarchists). But you knew that.

Given the number of anarchists and marxist groups involved in the protests the flag is not there by accident.

804 CuriousLurker  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 8:55:45am

re: #801 Sergey Romanov

*headdesk* And with that, I'm returning to the relative sanity of my analog world.

Later, Lizards

805 Obdicut  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 8:55:57am

re: #799 BigPapa

Hell, if flags are that significant, then is Mississippi in active revolt against the Union?

And hell, that's a case where everyone knows what the hell that flag is in reference to.

806 Sheila Broflovski  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 8:56:36am

re: #803 Killgore Trout

Given the number of anarchists and marxist groups involved in the protests the flag is not there my accident.

Please show us a picture of a protestor holding a cardboard sign that says RAPISTS AND STABBERS ARE BETTER THAN BANKERS.

807 Lidane  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 8:56:47am

re: #797 CuriousLurker

They may have won this battle, but that's it.

Oh, no. They're winning the war. It's why they won the battle so easily.

Get the useful idiots and concern trolls going about violent, drug addicted, dirty, lazy, Marxist trust fund hippies who carry anarchist flags and don't want to work for anything in life and everyone focuses on them. They then ignore the fact that no one is talking about the issues. They're talking about the protesters, and the underlying causes of the protest get ignored. Again.

Classic Wizard of Oz, where you're asked not to pay attention to the forces behind the curtain.

808 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 8:57:38am

OK, screw you guys, I'm (literally) going home.
//

809 Obdicut  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 8:58:08am

re: #803 Killgore Trout

Given the number of anarchists and marxist groups involved in the protests the flag is not there by accident.

No, it's there because an anarchist is waving it. That doesn't mean that people who don't know what it even means somehow are being influenced by it. It's not a fucking magic totem.

810 Wozza Matter?  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 8:58:08am

re: #804 CuriousLurker

*headdesk* And with that, I'm returning to the relative sanity of my analog world.

Later, Lizards

Laters {CL}

811 Obdicut  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 8:58:33am

re: #808 Sergey Romanov

OK, screw you guys, I'm (literally) going home.
//

We all agreed that the new phraseology is "I'm taking my balls and going home."

812 Kronocide  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 8:58:51am

re: #803 Killgore Trout

Given the number of anarchists and marxist groups involved in the protests the flag is not there my accident.

I'm not saying it's there by accident. But I do question the relevance of this. This is not an anarchist march, as much as the right wing wants it to be.

Is OWS an anarcho capitalist movement or is OWS a populist movement that anarcho capitalists are trying to tag along?

813 Gus  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 8:59:45am

The greatest threat to America is anarchist-syndicalism!

You know it! It's coming. Be afraid. be very afraid.

//

814 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 9:00:11am

re: #811 Obdicut

We all agreed that the new phraseology is "I'm taking my balls and going home."

Sorry for not using that, must've lost my bearings!//

815 Gus  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 9:00:44am

re: #794 Obdicut

If they have no idea of the significance of the flag, what they're 'really' doing is not supporting anarchist socialism.

The colors have symbolism.

[Link: www.spunk.org...]

816 Lidane  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 9:00:49am

re: #812 BigPapa

I'm not saying it's there by accident. But I do question the relevance of this.

Of COURSE it's relevant! It proves OWS is an anarchist protest!

///

817 Wozza Matter?  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 9:01:29am

re: #812 BigPapa

I'm not saying it's there by accident. But I do question the relevance of this. This is not an anarchist march, as much as the right wing wants it to be.

Is OWS an anarcho capitalist movement or is OWS a populist movement that anarcho capitalists are trying to tag along?

Anarcho-Capitalism is the Ron Paul/TeaBircher style movement.

Anarcho syndicalism is a very specific movement - advocating a path to socialism, and through the strong communities built in those conditions the subsequent removal of the state and then governance by the collective at a local level.

818 Killgore Trout  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 9:03:30am

re: #812 BigPapa

Is OWS an anarcho capitalist movement or is OWS a populist movement that anarcho capitalists are trying to tag along?

The original organizers were anarchists and marxists. Anon and Adbusters. There are plenty of other marxist groups like World Workers Party, ANSWER, etc. Also some black block anarchists show up for the marches. Plenty of normal people, hippies, lefties, professional activists etc show up too. It's a mix.

819 Simply Sarah  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 9:06:22am

re: #811 Obdicut

We all agreed that the new phraseology is "I'm taking my balls and going home."

That may work all well and good for you, but...

820 Killgore Trout  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 9:06:55am

They're trying to close down the bridges here in Portland: Occupy Portland protesters arrested on closed bridge

821 Lidane  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 9:08:26am

Just like clockwork. More focus on the protesters and nothing on the issues that OWS was meant to highlight.

Good job.

822 Gus  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 9:09:30am

Welcome to the OWS Channel.

All OWS news all the time.

//

823 Obdicut  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 9:10:33am

re: #820 Killgore Trout


Lemme ask: Do you do any campaigning, any lobbying, any engagement with the political system to try to change the way things are? Or are you an ideological non-participant all the way down the line?

825 Simply Sarah  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 9:10:52am

re: #822 Gus 802

Welcome to the OWS Channel.

All OWS news all the time.

//

Booooooring. Put on ESPN.

826 Talking Point Detective  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 9:11:46am

re: #787 Killgore Trout

Watching the live stream posted at hot air. The crowd is marching back to wall street following the red and black flag. the camera man aksed what the flag meant and the protested said it's an ancient greek symbol of hunger and social change. The flag really means...

I wonder how much people really understand what they're doing.

If only they had non-elitists like you to explain it to them.

827 jaunte  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 9:11:52am

"The N17 (November 17) groups want banks to stop foreclosing on people's homes."

828 makeitstop  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 9:12:44am

re: #822 Gus 802

Welcome to the OWDS Channel.

All OWS news all the time.

//

Fixerated.

No day is complete without a constant feed of OWS hysteria.
/

829 prairiefire  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 9:15:12am

re: #819 Simply Sarah

That may work all well and good for you, but...

"I'm taking my ovum and going home."

830 Killgore Trout  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 9:15:33am

re: #823 Obdicut

Lemme ask: Do you do any campaigning, any lobbying, any engagement with the political system to try to change the way things are? Or are you an ideological non-participant all the way down the line?

I don't campaign or contribute to political campaigns. I vote, although I sat out last election.
I'm more interested in what I do rather than influencing what other people do. I recycle, compost, fill up my gas tank only 3-4 times a year, I'm a non-consumer and grow my own food.
I'm interested in politics and international affairs but I'm not terribly interested in become an activist for anything or anybody.

831 Talking Point Detective  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 9:18:05am

Irony of the day. I went to the MSNBC live-feed for the OWS stuff in New York.

Had to watch a commercial before the feed came on line.

832 Lidane  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 9:19:01am

Middle-Class Areas Shrink as Income Gap Grows, New Report Finds

Prosecutions for Bank Fraud Fall Sharply

The Sharp Increase in the Food Stamps Program

F.H.A. Audit Sees Possible Bailout Need

But of course, the REAL issue is a bunch of protesters carrying anarchist flags or slowing down traffic.

833 Simply Sarah  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 9:20:44am

I'm going to have to be completely honest here. It's hard for me to condemn some of the actions of Occupy protestors that I'd otherwise see as being out of line. I mean, at some point enough needs to be enough and actions need to be taken, especially when the wealthy elite tend to stymie attempts to fix things through the system.

OWS is a symptom of the system and its only going to get worse unless things start to change and quickly. I'm just glad people are, for the most part, still peaceful about this, since we're reaching a point where people can start turning to violence. That's not helped by the fact that America tends to be rather violent for a developed nation to start with.

834 Obdicut  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 9:21:07am

re: #830 Killgore Trout

Yeah. So you're not engaging with the political system. You're not even voting. your sole engagement is just complaining, complaining, complaining.

News flash: That will not fix a fucking thing. You think the OWS people aren't going to make anything better? They might not. But you are absolutely not. A claim of "well, at least I'm not adding the problem" isn't fucking good enough. Things need to change. They're not going to get better on their own. It's the ethical responsibility of every single goddamn person who can see that there's a problem to help to fix it.

If you used the amount of time and energy you spend highlighting every bit of petty crime at OWS doing get out the vote calls, or working to get a green energy bill passed, you might actually have a positive effect on the system. It's not a sure thing. But just whining is not going to change a damn thing, and that's obvious.

835 Talking Point Detective  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 9:21:51am

re: #830 Killgore Trout

I don't campaign or contribute to political campaigns. I vote, although I sat out last election.
I'm more interested in what I do rather than influencing what other people do. I recycle, compost, fill up my gas tank only 3-4 times a year, I'm a non-consumer and grow my own food.
I'm interested in politics and international affairs but I'm not terribly interested in become an activist for anything or anybody.

Do you consider income inequality to be a problem? If so, do you do anything to address that issue? *

*other than accusing people of supporting rapes and stabbings.

836 Kronocide  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 9:22:34am

re: #818 Killgore Trout

The original organizers were anarchists and marxists. Anon and Adbusters. There are plenty of other marxist groups like World Workers Party, ANSWER, etc. Also some black block anarchists show up for the marches. Plenty of normal people, hippies, lefties, professional activists etc show up too. It's a mix.

'Organizing' loosely defined since this is obviously a loosely defined movement. I don't dispute the influences of these groups you've noted, I do question relevance.

The movement didn't get that big simply because AdBusters, a Canadian magazine, sent out a flashy email promoting it, or because the hacker collective Anonymous flicked out a few tweets. Instead, it took a group of about 200 committed activists 47 days to outline the ground rules that have allowed the protest to flourish.

Reawakening The Radical Imagination: The Origins Of Occupy Wall Street

837 Shropshire_Slasher  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 9:24:54am

I don't like bullies

838 Simply Sarah  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 9:25:05am

re: #834 Obdicut

I have to admit, I'm not nearly as politically active as I could be, should be, and want to be. I'm part of the problem. But I'm not happy, and certainly not proud, about that. And I'm working to fix it, especially now that my life is in a better place than it has been in a long time, if not ever.

839 Sheila Broflovski  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 9:26:11am

Taunting the protestors.

840 Shropshire_Slasher  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 9:26:20am

Somebody needs a time out

841 Simply Sarah  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 9:27:50am

re: #839 Alouette

Taunting the protestors.

Of course. There are tons of extra jobs just sitting there, waiting for real hardworking Americans to take if only they stopping being so damn lazy and took them.
/ shouldn't really be needed here.

842 Obdicut  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 9:28:41am

re: #838 Simply Sarah

Well really, get out there. Do stuff. It's mostly boring and it's a drudge, but it's worthwhile. Every bit of organization, every bit of adding to the idea that we're in this together, all the community organizing is valuable in and of itself even if you fail in the short term.

Find a local candidate who's worthwhile and support them, or a local group if your politicians are all whackjobs. Or go through the process to put an initiative on the local ballot if there's really no one; become that person.

We really need to get it done, or we can't be surprised when the world turns to crap. I want to have kids. I want there to be a world for them to live in.

843 Killgore Trout  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 9:29:18am

re: #835 Talking Point Detective

Do you consider income inequality to be a problem? If so, do you do anything to address that issue? *

*other than accusing people of supporting rapes and stabbings.

Yes, I think it's a serious problem and it's going to take decades to correct. Aside from voting there's not much I can do. Marching around with Anarchists and Marxists, blocking roads and bridges, even vandalizing banks Isn't going to accomplish anything so I'm not motivated to participate in it. If anything this distracts from the serious issues and alienates the very people who we want to support these issues. It's counterproductive and does more harm than good.

844 Gus  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 9:29:37am

UC Berkeley student killed by police was motivational speaker

The armed UC Berkeley student shot and killed by police this week was a motivational speaker who told audiences the story of how he turned his life around.

Christopher Travis, 34, an undergraduate who had transferred to UC Berkeley's business school earlier this fall, died of his wounds at a hospital, officials said. He was shot Tuesday afternoon by a campus police officer in the school's computer lab after Travis pointed a loaded handgun at officers and refused orders to drop the weapon, authorities said.

...

An online resume identified a Christopher Travis enrolled at UC Berkeley's business school as a former security guard who had worked in "coordinating hazmat, medical, and police emergency response" and had transferred to UC from Ohlone College in Fremont, Calif.

845 Obdicut  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 9:29:58am

re: #843 Killgore Trout

Yes, I think it's a serious problem and it's going to take decades to correct. Aside from voting there's not much I can do.

Yes, there is. You're unwilling to do it.

846 Killgore Trout  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 9:31:19am

re: #836 BigPapa

'Organizing' loosely defined since this is obviously a loosely defined movement. I don't dispute the influences of these groups you've noted, I do question relevance.

Reawakening The Radical Imagination: The Origins Of Occupy Wall Street

I think that's a pretty good article.

847 Killgore Trout  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 9:32:20am

re: #845 Obdicut

Yes, there is. You're unwilling to do it.

I'm not going to march around with communists and violent anarchists. It's simply not going to happen. Any event they attend I will not participate in.

848 Gus  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 9:32:39am

Read #844. There's a complete lack of follow up on the accusations of crime at OWS. In this example that particular shooting incident was blamed on Occupy Berkeley. A lot of people are being arrested in the surrounding areas and crimes being committed within the vicinity of these demonstration and having nothing to do with those demonstrators. This also includes the "White House shooter" amongst others.

Oh. And just in case we forget. The White House shooter is innocent until proven guilty. That's how America works. And that includes everyone that's arrested or indicted.

849 Simply Sarah  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 9:32:49am

re: #842 Obdicut

Well really, get out there. Do stuff. It's mostly boring and it's a drudge, but it's worthwhile. Every bit of organization, every bit of adding to the idea that we're in this together, all the community organizing is valuable in and of itself even if you fail in the short term.

Find a local candidate who's worthwhile and support them, or a local group if your politicians are all whackjobs. Or go through the process to put an initiative on the local ballot if there's really no one; become that person.

We really need to get it done, or we can't be surprised when the world turns to crap. I want to have kids. I want there to be a world for them to live in.

Yeah, I'm well aware. I've just been very much a social shut-in most of my life (Only starting to come out very recently), so this is all strange and new to me. It's a slow process, but it's getting there. And, knowing myself, as soon as I find a good cause and group to work with, I'm going to quickly become extremely active. And yeah, I'm making excuses. I'm an expert at that.

850 Sheila Broflovski  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 9:33:56am

re: #841 Simply Sarah

Of course. There are tons of extra jobs just sitting there, waiting for real hardworking Americans to take if only they stopping being so damn lazy and took them.
/ shouldn't really be needed here.

It's those damn regulations imposed by those meddling, interfering, nanny-state coddling librul Democrats that are sending Murican jobs overseas!

If only we didn't have all that dang blasted regulations, we'd all be sitting pretty, happily working for $2/hour at Triangle Industries and all our T-shirts and blue jeans and Walmart goods would be MADE IN AMERICA by real MURICANS!

851 Obdicut  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 9:35:00am

re: #847 Killgore Trout

I'm not going to march around with communists and violent anarchists. It's simply not going to happen. Any event they attend I will not participate in.

Again, you're just ignoring what I actually write, or pretending I said something I didn't. Why do you do that? You're an intelligent guy, and you're playing dumb on a regular basis. What the fuck is up with that? It's pathetic.

If you used the amount of time and energy you spend highlighting every bit of petty crime at OWS doing get out the vote calls, or working to get a green energy bill passed, you might actually have a positive effect on the system. It's not a sure thing. But just whining is not going to change a damn thing, and that's obvious.

Find a candidate worth supporting, like Whitehouse or Warren. Thanks to the connected age we live in, you don't even have to be in their district. You can help fundraise, or, if you're morally opposed to getting more money in politics, you can just do get out the vote, or work on information campaigns for the public. You can work on petition drives to get issues on the local ballot. You can do a fucking huge number of things.

Positing it as either sitting on your ass complaining or marching with anarchists is a totally fake, made up false dichotomy.

852 Only The Lurker Knows  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 9:35:04am

Here is something more on Ortega.

Idaho Falls Man Talks About Meeting With Ortega-Hernandez

He was definatly out there.

853 Lidane  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 9:35:33am

More distractions:

Your grocery bill is getting higher, and higher

More Americans expecting to retire in their 80s

But hey, let's keep talking about a small number of anarchists in a larger protest movement. Who cares about anything else?

854 Eventual Carrion  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 9:35:57am

re: #401 Varek Raith

Remember, I get double hate-crime coupons because I'm Jewish and an atheist. If only I were gay, albino, and left-handed too.

I'm left handed.
:P

I made a choice to be albino so I am really gonna get it.
//

855 Talking Point Detective  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 9:36:09am

re: #843 Killgore Trout

Yes, I think it's a serious problem and it's going to take decades to correct. Aside from voting there's not much I can do. Marching around with Anarchists and Marxists, blocking roads and bridges, even vandalizing banks Isn't going to accomplish anything so I'm not motivated to participate in it. If anything this distracts from the serious issues and alienates the very people who we want to support these issues. It's counterproductive and does more harm than good.

I really wasn't asking for a distorted take on what is happening, or why you're not interesting in participating in something that you completely distort in your description.

I was asking whether there was anything that you are doing to address the problem of income inequality, assuming you consider it to be a problem.

Outside of the irrelevant aspect of your answer, I see that you do think that it's a problem and that you aren't doing anything to address the problem.

And BTW - I disagree with your categorical assessment that in balance what has happened is only a distraction and counterproductive. I also think that you don't really have a clue what the long-term impact might be going forward, even though you claim certainty.

856 prairiefire  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 9:36:27am

re: #838 Simply Sarah

I have to admit, I'm not nearly as politically active as I could be, should be, and want to be. I'm part of the problem. But I'm not happy, and certainly not proud, about that. And I'm working to fix it, especially now that my life is in a better place than it has been in a long time, if not ever.

When things are good inward, then you can start to reach out. It will make you stronger, really. It's very satisfying when taking a look at the big picture and realizing what you feel responsible for.

857 lawhawk  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 9:37:07am

Canon used to run the successful ad campaign with Andre Aggasi - Image is Everything.

Well, image is still everything. It's the optics that define movements and trends. Here, we've got the OWS movement, and it's been defined by images. How can you categorize what kind of politics are involved? Well, you see flags, symbols, and physical acts as captured on video or photos.

So, to someone like Killgore, they're focusing on the anarchists, the arrests, and the encampments and wonder what it's all for since nothing changes.

I've had plenty of experience first-hand with the protests (as had Obdicut) at Zuccotti Park, and it's a whole lot more than the general image portrayed by media outlets, even those that are seemingly sympathetic to the idea of OWS (after all, they've got to make money and trying to capture the ideas of OWS protesters is harder than trying to catch the gotcha images of an arrest, guys in Fawkes masks, or other crazies that have come down to get face time at Zuccotti Park, let alone the arrests for sit-ins and disrupting traffic, etc.).

Heck, the most interesting part of the OWS protest was the guy I encountered who wanted to see serious financial reform and had a poster outlining what he'd like to see happen. It was a good image too (and posted on my blog, if I say so myself). He was out there for quite a few days - and I think he would come down during lunch to protest, and then return home or back to work.

I saw lots of people who weren't all that much different than I was - maybe a few years younger or older, but who articulated real issues with the way the economy was, how the government was treating specific groups of people, and proposing ideas/solutions. Some of the stuff I agreed with, some of it I thought was outlandish and some of it was flat out crank territory.

I might not have agreed with what they were saying, but it was important enough for me to capture those images and post them to the blog. Not only was it newsworthy, but it helped spread their message even if my viewership isn't that large. At least it's out there for others to read.

Would I have gotten larger viewership had I focused/posted only the confrontations with police - the hot shots of police arrests, etc.? I suppose, but the protests are much more than just police confrontations, crackdowns, or protest marches.

There's plenty of messages trying to be sent, and while I guess I post only a portion of them (inserting my own bias), I understand and try to maintain some level of objectivity in my postings/reporting.

So, when there are mass-arrests, I will post/report those, but not at the expense of whatever message the protesters themselves were trying to get across.

858 Obdicut  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 9:37:19am

re: #849 Simply Sarah

Heh. I'm actually working to start a non-profit that specifically engages with introverts, shut-ins, obsessive-compulsives, autists, and other people with, ah, social deficits in order to get them appropriate jobs and involved in political organizing. It's an idea that a friend of mine who passed away a few years ago passed on to me, and I've finally found a place that might make a good launchpad for it. We waste a ton of human potential by having social barriers to engagement.

859 Killgore Trout  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 9:37:35am

re: #851 Obdicut

I'm quite capable of making my own decisions on what to do, who to vote for, who to associate with and which causes to support.

860 prairiefire  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 9:38:38am

re: #858 Obdicut

Fruit on the ground on the internet!

861 Sheila Broflovski  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 9:39:19am

I think Walter and Cato have kidnapped Kilgore and hijacked his LGF account.

862 prairiefire  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 9:39:36am

re: #858 Obdicut

Heh. I'm actually working to start a non-profit that specifically engages with introverts, shut-ins, obsessive-compulsives, autists, and other people with, ah, social deficits in order to get them appropriate jobs and involved in political organizing. It's an idea that a friend of mine who passed away a few years ago passed on to me, and I've finally found a place that might make a good launchpad for it. We waste a ton of human potential by having social barriers to engagement.

How are you going to spread the word?

863 Talking Point Detective  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 9:41:06am

re: #859 Killgore Trout

I'm quite capable of making my own decisions on what to do, who to vote for, who to associate with and which causes to support.

I think it's clear that you're running tapes in your head of what you think other people are saying, and responding to those tapes, as opposed to responding to what people actually say.

Your string of non-sequitur responses is evidence.

864 Simply Sarah  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 9:41:38am

re: #858 Obdicut

Heh. I'm actually working to start a non-profit that specifically engages with introverts, shut-ins, obsessive-compulsives, autists, and other people with, ah, social deficits in order to get them appropriate jobs and involved in political organizing. It's an idea that a friend of mine who passed away a few years ago passed on to me, and I've finally found a place that might make a good launchpad for it. We waste a ton of human potential by having social barriers to engagement.

Oh god, yes. I know that all to well.

Although, For me, a lot of it has been discovering I'm NOT really "anti-social", but I just wasn't understanding myself for the longest time. Once that started happening, I've pretty much turned into a different person. And I've never been happier or more interested in engaging with the world.

865 dragonfire1981  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 9:42:54am

re: #832 Lidane

Middle-Class Areas Shrink as Income Gap Grows, New Report Finds

Prosecutions for Bank Fraud Fall Sharply

The Sharp Increase in the Food Stamps Program

F.H.A. Audit Sees Possible Bailout Need

But of course, the REAL issue is a bunch of protesters carrying anarchist flags or slowing down traffic.

No, no, no. The real issue is women and their out of control uteruses.

866 Obdicut  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 9:43:03am

re: #859 Killgore Trout

I'm quite capable of making my own decisions on what to do, who to vote for, who to associate with and which causes to support.

Sure. And I'm quite capable of finding your decision to just whining about things while doing nothing to help fix them severely lacking.

And when you create a false dichotomy, that you can either just not do anything other than voting (when you can be bothered) or march with anarchists, I think it shows your defensiveness and self-justification pretty clearly.

I really do consider anyone who's not helping part of the problem. If they don't know there's a problem, if they're not really aware of it, if they have a bad understanding of it, I want to try to educate them, to help them, to reach them and get them involved.

But then there's someone like you, who knows there's a problem, is even capable of expressing it very articulately, but is so buried in cynicism or nihilism or whatever that you don't actually want to work to help solve any problems, and justify non-action through the fallacy that at least you're not doing any harm.

Complain all you like-- just don't whine when, likewise, I complain about people like you who aren't willing to actually lift a finger to help out the situation and would rather just bitch. I feel the same way about you I do about a lot of the people at Occupy. If they want real political change, they should engage with the system to make it happen. But at least they're under the delusion that they're helping. You know you're not.

867 Lidane  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 9:43:17am

re: #857 lawhawk

So, when there are mass-arrests, I will post/report those, but not at the expense of whatever message the protesters themselves were trying to get across.

See, by doing that you're only upsetting the narrative. Don't you know you're supposed to focus on the dirty, violent, drug-addicted, trust fund Marxist hippies who support rape and stabby stab while carrying an anarchist flag?

Screw the message. It's all about the dirty fucking hippies.

///

868 Gus  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 9:44:56am

I am not an activist! That's why I've been at a politically active blog for the past 5 years espousing politically active positions.

//

869 Talking Point Detective  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 9:45:09am

re: #867 Lidane

See, by doing that you're only upsetting the narrative. Don't you know you're supposed to focus on the dirty, violent, drug-addicted, trust fund Marxist hippies who support rape and stabby stab while carrying an anarchist flag?

Screw the message. It's all about the dirty fucking hippies.

///

It all boils down to the hippies.

870 McSpiff  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 9:45:29am

re: #868 Gus 802

I am not an activist! That's why I've been at a politically active blog for the past 5 years espousing politically active positions.

//

Posting here makes me an activist? Do I get to put that on my resume?

871 prairiefire  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 9:46:31am

re: #870 McSpiff

Yes.

872 wrenchwench  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 9:46:40am

From the end of the article Big Papa posted:

What happens next for the camp in Zuccotti Park, as winter looms, is an open question. But the ultimate legacy of Occupy Wall Street, some organizers contend, is already assured.

"We succeeded on day two," says Sitrin. Occupy Wall Street's victory, she argues, came when it became apparent the Bloomberg administration wouldn't be able to kick out the campers without a fight and the media began to take notice.

Sitrin says that Occupy Wall Street aimed to "awaken the radical imagination" in a country where widespread protests on the scale of Europe's had yet to occur.

Now, Sitrin says, "we can say out loud that there is a crisis."

I don't see any reason for OWS supporters to be discouraged about OWS. About the issues being addressed, sure, but if you're not in it for the long haul, you're not in it.

873 Gus  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 9:46:49am

re: #870 McSpiff

Posting here makes me an activist? Do I get to put that on my resume?

Depends on what level one attains. There is internet activism; hacktivism; etc.

874 Obdicut  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 9:47:15am

re: #862 prairiefire

How are you going to spread the word?

I'm trying to get a grant through this organization:

[Link: www.echoinggreen.org...]

I'm writing it up this weekend. I've got a bunch of ideas for how to do the social engagement part. Working through hospitals/doctors is a good way to reach the people who have the biggest limitations, colleges are another good way to go, and using social media to reach out to family and friends. A lot of autists and other high-functioning social 'misfits' are living with relatives because, hey, it's family, they have to put up with you. I also want to reach out through the court system since a lot of people with, ah, social limitations wind up in petty court a lot.

There's also an autistic woman who's started an employment agency for autists who I'm trying to get into contact with. She's one of the people that got me thinking about this; she works with a scientist who basically says that her autism is valuable, since her way of thinking about subjects is so radically different its complementary, it catches things that others miss.

875 Gus  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 9:47:28am

re: #869 Talking Point Detective

It all boils down to the hippies things I hate.

FTFY

//

876 McSpiff  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 9:49:06am

re: #873 Gus 802

Depends on what level one attains. There is internet activism; hacktivism; etc.

I'm just playing around. I'm actually lucky to come from a very strong political family, I get to waltz in and out of political activism as I please.

877 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 9:50:26am

re: #556 iossarian

It (concealed carry reciprocity) is also a bit of a logical fail, in that it stipulates that some rights (the right to carry a gun) should cross state boundaries while other rights (the right to assume that the other people enjoying lunch at Chipotle with me are not carrying guns) should not only remain at home, but be undermined there as well.

Right now I'm sitting in the lobby of a hotel overlooking Liberty University. They just approved conceal carry on campus.

Now. Who's surprised?

878 prairiefire  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 9:50:37am

re: #874 Obdicut

Every college library in the country should hear about it. Very exciting Obdi! I think windsagio's mom does autistic aware stuff in the NW.

879 Talking Point Detective  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 9:51:46am

re: #874 Obdicut

I'm trying to get a grant through this organization:

[Link: www.echoinggreen.org...]

I'm writing it up this weekend. I've got a bunch of ideas for how to do the social engagement part. Working through hospitals/doctors is a good way to reach the people who have the biggest limitations, colleges are another good way to go, and using social media to reach out to family and friends. A lot of autists and other high-functioning social 'misfits' are living with relatives because, hey, it's family, they have to put up with you. I also want to reach out through the court system since a lot of people with, ah, social limitations wind up in petty court a lot.

There's also an autistic woman who's started an employment agency for autists who I'm trying to get into contact with. She's one of the people that got me thinking about this; she works with a scientist who basically says that her autism is valuable, since her way of thinking about subjects is so radically different its complementary, it catches things that others miss.

Just a thought, and I'm not a hugely PC guy, but you might consider using the term "people with autism." If you're going to be working with those folks, some might appreciate a more specific description.

880 Sheila Broflovski  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 9:53:11am

re: #879 Talking Point Detective

Just a thought, and I'm not a hugely PC guy, but you might consider using the term "people with autism." If you're going to be working with those folks, some might appreciate a more specific description.

Not to mention, I saw the word "autists" and my mind auto-corrected to read "artists."

881 Obdicut  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 9:53:48am

re: #878 prairiefire

Yeah, there's a lot of networks out there already to help tap into. Mainly I'm trying to make the argument that these people don't need to be 'fixed', that the goal shouldn't be to get them to act as much like other workers as possible, but that, in many cases, having people around who literally think differently is a huge benefit.

Unfortunately, one of the main things I have to cite on this is Nature article, and you need a subscription to read it.

882 Kronocide  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 9:54:15am

re: #880 Alouette

Not to mention, I saw the word "autists" and my mind auto-corrected to read "artists."

Hey, I got that one. Would that be a dobbow entendwa?

883 Obdicut  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 9:54:41am

re: #879 Talking Point Detective

Just a thought, and I'm not a hugely PC guy, but you might consider using the term "people with autism." If you're going to be working with those folks, some might appreciate a more specific description.

How is 'people with autism' more specific than 'autists'?

And I've worked with them before. And I'm not just working with autistic people.

884 Talking Point Detective  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 9:55:35am

re: #881 Obdicut

Yeah, there's a lot of networks out there already to help tap into. Mainly I'm trying to make the argument that these people don't need to be 'fixed', that the goal shouldn't be to get them to act as much like other workers as possible, but that, in many cases, having people around who literally think differently is a huge benefit.

Unfortunately, one of the main things I have to cite on this is Nature article, and you need a subscription to read it.

Somewhat tangential - but I assume you know about Temple Grandin?

885 Simply Sarah  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 9:57:15am

re: #881 Obdicut

Yeah, there's a lot of networks out there already to help tap into. Mainly I'm trying to make the argument that these people don't need to be 'fixed', that the goal shouldn't be to get them to act as much like other workers as possible, but that, in many cases, having people around who literally think differently is a huge benefit.

Unfortunately, one of the main things I have to cite on this is Nature article, and you need a subscription to read it.

I think that's something that at least the psychological community is starting to realize is true for many things that have long been considered 'mental illnesses'. Often, it's better for everyone to accept the differences in thinking of others, rather than trying to 'fix' the thinking to be 'normal'. Still have a way to go on all that, though. Glad you're trying to help!

886 Talking Point Detective  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 9:58:29am

re: #883 Obdicut

How is 'people with autism' more specific than 'autists'?

And I've worked with them before. And I'm not just working with autistic people.

Well, autism is only one of their characteristics. So if you refer to them as autists (autistics?) you're characterizing them by only one of their attributes. I assume that you already know that, and reject that viewpoint, and that's fine. I only offered it as something to consider.

It's similar to how in the literature, "people with diabetes" is considered preferable to diabetics.

Largely semantic, IMO, but for some people it's pretty important.

887 Sheila Broflovski  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 9:58:59am

re: #883 Obdicut

How is 'people with autism' more specific than 'autists'?

It's not more specific, but less likely to be confused with "artists."

888 Daniel Ballard  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 9:59:56am

Hippie!
Occupy LA
Image: 131558349-041.jpg

889 Killgore Trout  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 10:01:00am

Lefty live stream now talking about Alex Jones and chatting with 9-11 truther from We Are Change
[Link: www.ustream.tv...]

890 wrenchwench  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 10:01:16am

re: #881 Obdicut

Yeah, there's a lot of networks out there already to help tap into. Mainly I'm trying to make the argument that these people don't need to be 'fixed', that the goal shouldn't be to get them to act as much like other workers as possible, but that, in many cases, having people around who literally think differently is a huge benefit.

Unfortunately, one of the main things I have to cite on this is Nature article, and you need a subscription to read it.

This may be only tangentially related. It's about a schizophrenic woman who does best with a very demanding job.

Oops, sorry. It's about a woman "who has a diagnosis of schizoaffective disorder."

891 Obdicut  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 10:02:09am

re: #884 Talking Point Detective

Yep. She's a very good example. There's probably a lot more people like her out there.

Part of what got me on to this-- as well as my friend who died-- is my wife's med school class. She's in the MD/PhD program, which is populated by people who are going to be doing serious research. They're different than the MD program; 'smarter' in general, but they also tend to be more obsessive. Then, in the pure PhD program, you find true obsessives, people with severe social 'deficits', but who are still successful enough because academia knows how to deal with that kind of stuff.

A common trait they share is that they're not mainly motivated by greed or desire for success, but real obsession with their subject, with really just figuring this stuff out. They make excellent researchers because they're data driven; they don't want to prove their pet theories, for the most part, but they really want to know, they want to get to the bottom of it, they want wants real. Obviously, this can go off the rails-- vid. Tesla, who was obsessive but believed in a lot of non-real stuff-- but a lot of the most competent people I've met share that trait, of liking the job qua job, rather than for what the job brings them.

And I think we need more of that, to celebrate that more, respect those people more.

892 Sheila Broflovski  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 10:04:34am

I see it has become a meme on the right-wing blogs to claim that there are fewer, even NO "tea party" arrests as opposed to huge numbers of OWS arrests.

I guess they don't count the militia arrests as having anything to do with the tea parties.

893 Talking Point Detective  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 10:05:08am

re: #890 wrenchwench

This may be only tangentially related. It's about a schizophrenic woman who does best with a very demanding job.

Oops, sorry. It's about a woman "who has a diagnosis of schizoaffective disorder."

You can make fun of it if you want to, but for some people it is important. I've worked with people with "disabilities" for decades, and for some people it matters.

I take care of a brother who has schizophrenia. That is how I refer to him. IMO, it is somewhat diminishing to refer to him as a schozophrenic - thus seeming to reduce him to that one attribute. I don't take personal offense, as I assume people don't intend it that way, but I also don't see any reason why people would make it a point to not change how they use the language.

894 Romantic Heretic  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 10:06:09am

re: #874 Obdicut

There's also an autistic woman who's started an employment agency for autists who I'm trying to get into contact with. She's one of the people that got me thinking about this; she works with a scientist who basically says that her autism is valuable, since her way of thinking about subjects is so radically different its complementary, it catches things that others miss.

Now I'm thinking of this quote.

In order for businesses to succeed in the future they must be systematically open to heresy.

I interpret this to mean that a business must have many points of view amongst its employees in order to prosper. Otherwise that hideous phenomena, incestuous amplification, take over and the business become moribund and then fails. "If every one's thinking the same, someone's not thinking," as George Patton put it.

It's not just autistics but any one with a different perspective that a business, or any other organization, needs to thrive.

895 Eventual Carrion  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 10:06:41am

re: #476 Alouette

Who watched "White Trash in Trouble" on South Park last night?

I did. Penn State jokes all around.

896 Sheila Broflovski  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 10:07:46am

re: #891 Obdicut

Obviously, this can go off the rails-- vid. Tesla, who was obsessive but believed in a lot of non-real stuff-- but a lot of the most competent people I've met share that trait, of liking the job qua job, rather than for what the job brings them.

And I think we need more of that, to celebrate that more, respect those people more.

Problem is that such people can be taken advantage of, and paid far less than others in the same profession, because after all "you're doing the job because you love it! You'd do it even for free!"

897 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 10:08:30am

re: #887 Alouette

It's not more specific, but less likely to be confused with "artists."

Years ago, I saw Chris Fonseca (comedian) at the Tempe Improv.

He has CP, and picked up a piano keyboard and said, "You know how some people with autism have great musical skills?" He began to play the piano very poorly (coordination was impossible for him) for about 30 seconds. He looked back up at the audience (who were in a very uncomfortable silence) and said, "I told you I have cerebral palsy: I'm not autistic."

There was a three second silence, then the place exploded in laughter.

898 Talking Point Detective  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 10:08:32am

re: #891 Obdicut

Yep. She's a very good example. There's probably a lot more people like her out there.

Part of what got me on to this-- as well as my friend who died-- is my wife's med school class. She's in the MD/PhD program, which is populated by people who are going to be doing serious research. They're different than the MD program; 'smarter' in general, but they also tend to be more obsessive. Then, in the pure PhD program, you find true obsessives, people with severe social 'deficits', but who are still successful enough because academia knows how to deal with that kind of stuff.

A common trait they share is that they're not mainly motivated by greed or desire for success, but real obsession with their subject, with really just figuring this stuff out. They make excellent researchers because they're data driven; they don't want to prove their pet theories, for the most part, but they really want to know, they want to get to the bottom of it, they want wants real. Obviously, this can go off the rails-- vid. Tesla, who was obsessive but believed in a lot of non-real stuff-- but a lot of the most competent people I've met share that trait, of liking the job qua job, rather than for what the job brings them.

And I think we need more of that, to celebrate that more, respect those people more.

She's a great example in that she has become quite well-known for exactly that aspect that you're focusing on: how people with "different" attributes can make unique contributions in work environments. I would imagine that she might be a useful resource for support.

899 Sheila Broflovski  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 10:08:39am

re: #895 RayFerd

I did. Penn State jokes all around.

With the subtext "Penn State jokes are freaking lame."

900 Obdicut  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 10:09:28am

re: #886 Talking Point Detective

Well, autism is only one of their characteristics. So if you refer to them as autists (autistics?) you're characterizing them by only one of their attributes. I assume that you already know that, and reject that viewpoint, and that's fine. I only offered it as something to consider.

No, I don't reject it, I just find it a limited viewpoint. I don't think language has that sort of totem power, where the brain really interprets 'autist' as different from 'person with autism'. If I were to have enough autistic people tell me that they did feel that way, or see other evidence that'd convince me, I'd change my mind.

But it kind of seems to me, yeah, just a semantic point, and a semantic point that's giving ground, that's saying being an autistic person is something terrible enough to try to describe our way around it so we don't have to say it. I'm trying to say being an autist isn't a negative thing, and it shouldn't be run away from.

There was a very funny bit in the Nature article I can't cite, but it was from the autistic researcher, who wryly noted that any difference in the brain structure of an autistic person is seen as negative. Whether it's a thickening of a structure, a thinning of it, an increase in activity in one place, or a decrease, it's all seen as part of the problem. Obviously, autistic people have tasks they perform better at than 'normal' people; just as obviously, that should mean not every brain structure is an explanation of deficit, some of it is an explanation of increased capacity.

901 wrenchwench  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 10:09:28am

re: #893 Talking Point Detective

You can make fun of it if you want to, but for some people it is important. I've worked with people with "disabilities" for decades, and for some people it matters.

I take care of a brother who has schizophrenia. That is how I refer to him. IMO, it is somewhat diminishing to refer to him as a schozophrenic - thus seeming to reduce him to that one attribute. I don't take personal offense, as I assume people don't intend it that way, but I also don't see any reason why people would make it a point to not change how they use the language.

Sorry. I didn't mean to make fun. I try to refer to people the way they prefer to be referred to, if I am aware of the preference. If not, I go for clarity and brevity.

I apologize.

902 Obdicut  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 10:11:57am

re: #896 Alouette

Problem is that such people can be taken advantage of, and paid far less than others in the same profession, because after all "you're doing the job because you love it! You'd do it even for free!"

Oh, they are. My wife is going to make 1/4 of what a dermatologist does, after going to school for four years longer. We already have a system that takes advantage of people. I just want to help them not also be frustrated and incapable of pursuing passion or having meaningful work. If it's a choice between someone else profiting from their obsession or them sitting at home bored out of their minds, I'd rather they be exploited.

903 Obdicut  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 10:12:52am

re: #898 Talking Point Detective

She's a great example in that she has become quite well-known for exactly that aspect that you're focusing on: how people with "different" attributes can make unique contributions in work environments. I would imagine that she might be a useful resource for support.

Yeah, I just think I probably have a ways to go before Temple Gradin will be taking my calls.

904 Lidane  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 10:38:21am

re: #889 Killgore Trout

Lefty live stream now talking about Alex Jones and chatting with 9-11 truther from We Are Change
[Link: www.ustream.tv...]

You mean the same Alex Jones who was a Tea Party hero, friend to Luap Nor, and Fox News contributor?

905 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 10:38:30am

re: #832 Lidane

Prosecutions for Bank Fraud Fall Sharply

I am sure this is because of most bankers' actions being legal.

///

906 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 11:11:10am

re: #847 Killgore Trout

I'm not going to march around with communists and violent anarchists. It's simply not going to happen. Any event they attend I will not participate in.

That's why you don't vote! //

907 Talking Point Detective  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 11:16:09am

re: #901 wrenchwench

Sorry. I didn't mean to make fun. I try to refer to people the way they prefer to be referred to, if I am aware of the preference. If not, I go for clarity and brevity.

I apologize.

Not a problem. PC can seem silly at times. I get that.

908 Talking Point Detective  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 11:28:54am

re: #900 Obdicut

No, I don't reject it, I just find it a limited viewpoint. I don't think language has that sort of totem power, where the brain really interprets 'autist' as different from 'person with autism'. If I were to have enough autistic people tell me that they did feel that way, or see other evidence that'd convince me, I'd change my mind.

But it kind of seems to me, yeah, just a semantic point, and a semantic point that's giving ground, that's saying being an autistic person is something terrible enough to try to describe our way around it so we don't have to say it. I'm trying to say being an autist isn't a negative thing, and it shouldn't be run away from.

There was a very funny bit in the Nature article I can't cite, but it was from the autistic researcher, who wryly noted that any difference in the brain structure of an autistic person is seen as negative. Whether it's a thickening of a structure, a thinning of it, an increase in activity in one place, or a decrease, it's all seen as part of the problem. Obviously, autistic people have tasks they perform better at than 'normal' people; just as obviously, that should mean not every brain structure is an explanation of deficit, some of it is an explanation of increased capacity.

I'm not sure.

If I hear someone refer to someone as a person with schizophrenia, it bumps up against my expectation that they would just refer to them as a schizophrenic. In that, it causes me to pause, if just for a second, and at least subconsciously consider that I was identifying them as an "other," by identifying them with one overall attribute, as opposed to someone who has various attributes just as I have various attributes.

Maybe it's like the difference between referring to someone as "hearing impaired" as opposed to "deaf" - where some people reject the term "hearing impaired" because they think that using that term means that not being able to hear is an "impairment." So, yeah, it's complicated.

Speaking from personal experience, I find it less desirable when someone calls my brother someone with schizophrenia than when they call him a schizophrenic. I happen to know that in the academic literature, there is clearly a preference among some for the term "person with diabetes" over the term diabetic. And I know that there are at least some people in various communities who prefer the "someone with" terminology. I wouldn't know the general preferences, but it seems that using the term that the least # of people find offensive might be a good guideline.

[Link: communities.washingtontimes.com...]

909 Talking Point Detective  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 11:30:07am

messed that up. I find it more desirable when someone calls my brother someone with schizophrenia.....

910 Obdicut  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 11:32:46am

re: #908 Talking Point Detective

I happen to know that in the academic literature, there is clearly a preference among some for the term "person with diabetes" over the term diabetic.

How do you 'know' this?

I wouldn't know the general preferences, but it seems that using the term that the least # of people find offensive might be a good guideline.

Well, once you've got a scientific poll, feel free to get back to me.

You know that article you cited agrees with me, right?

911 Talking Point Detective  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 12:19:08pm

re: #910 Obdicut

How do you 'know' this?

Well, once you've got a scientific poll, feel free to get back to me.

You know that article you cited agrees with me, right?

I "know" it because I have worked with students who were writing scientific journal articles on diabetes.

Yes, I know that the article I cited agrees with you. I don't feel a need to be "right" or "wrong" on this issue. In fact, I think that there is no "right" or "wrong."

The article also expressed more deference on the issue than you're doing.

You know that, right?

If you need a scientific poll to consider altering your language, so be it. If you have looked at the issue and don't want to alter your language, so be it.

912 Obdicut  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 12:23:24pm

re: #911 Talking Point Detective

I "know" it because I have worked with students who were writing scientific journal articles on diabetes.

And? How does that mean it's standard? Did someone tell you it was, or..?

Yes, I know that the article I cited agrees with you. I don't feel a need to be "right" or "wrong" on this issue. In fact, I think that there is no "right" or "wrong."

The article also expressed more deference on the issue than you're doing.

Deference to what or who?

If you need a scientific poll to consider altering your language, so be it. If you have looked at the issue and don't want to alter your language, so be it.

If I meet a significant number of autistic people who care about it, I'll alter my language. If I meet just one, I'll alter my language when talking to him or her.

Will you consider altering your language in light of my position, that avoiding the terminology is actually detrimental?

913 Talking Point Detective  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 12:35:41pm

re: #912 Obdicut

And? How does that mean it's standard? Did someone tell you it was, or..?

Deference to what or who?

If I meet a significant number of autistic people who care about it, I'll alter my language. If I meet just one, I'll alter my language when talking to him or her.

Will you consider altering your language in light of my position, that avoiding the terminology is actually detrimental?

Deference to people who express various opinions about the terminology. The writer of the article explicitly expresses respect for people who prefer the term "someone with." In case you didn't know previously, the article makes it clear that at least a significant % people with autism and/or their relatives feel that way.

It seems that you're more interested in asking rhetorical questions than actually debating the issue. So be it.

Yes - of course I would consider altering my language based on the reasoning you described. That would be consistent with my entire point. My sense based on similar issues, after decades of experience in working with people with "disabilities," and caring for a brother with schizophrenia, is that it makes sense to use the "someone with" terminology. I "know," for a fact, that there is a preference for that terminology in the literature on diabetes. That, in itself, doesn't determine a decision one way or the other - it is simply a statement of fact.

If I found evidence that in balance, that a certain term is considered less desirable by the people being referenced (or their families), I would alter my language. In lieu of that information that shows otherwise, I choose language based on the information I do have.

I think this issue has been beaten into the ground sufficiently.

914 Talking Point Detective  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 12:39:46pm

re: #912 Obdicut

And? How does that mean it's standard? Did someone tell you it was, or..?

I realized I didn't address this one point sufficiently.

Top people who publish in the field have, explicitly, edited the language to reflect what I was describing. I don't doubt that both expressions might be used to some extent, but the reason that they edited the language is because, as top people who publish in the field, they consider it more appropriate. It is highly improbably that their preferences aren't consistent with the standard usage.

915 Obdicut  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 12:46:40pm

re: #913 Talking Point Detective

Deference to people who express various opinions about the terminology.

I respect your opinion, I just think it's wrong. Is your complaint really that I'm not being 'deferential' enough? That's the word you want to go with?

It seems that you're more interested in asking rhetorical questions than actually debating the issue. So be it.

Playing psychologist over TCP/IP is dumb. I'm perfectly willing to debate the issue, but I'm unwilling to do so without something to go on. I know what your position is. It's hardly the first time I've encountered it. I made my argument, you made yours. Neither of us has any real scientific data-- which would be difficult-- to back up our positions.

I "know," for a fact, that there is a preference for that terminology in the literature on diabetes.

Top people who publish in the field have, explicitly, edited the language to reflect what I was describing. I don't doubt that both expressions might be used to some extent, but the reason that they edited the language is because, as top people who publish in the field, they consider it more appropriate. It is highly improbably that their preferences aren't consistent with the standard usage.

Ironically, what I've found is the literature tends to be split between the "Person with diabetes" language, the "diabetes patients" language, and the even more person-destroying "diabetes" language, referring to the disease only and not the person. Do you have any preference between "dieabetes patients" and "person with diabetes"? There's probably a semantic load there I'm dismissing.

If I found evidence that in balance, that a certain term is considered less desirable by the people being referenced (or their families), I would alter my language. In lieu of that information that shows otherwise, I choose language based on the information I do have.

And so do I. So what's your beef?

916 Talking Point Detective  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 1:26:28pm

re: #915 Obdicut

Do you have any preference between "dieabetes patients" and "person with diabetes"? There's probably a semantic load there I'm dismissing.

It is relevant whether you are referring to an individual or to a group, singular or plural (you mixed the two above). In my experience, "diabetes patients" or even "diabetics" increases in viability if you referring to a group - as opposed to individuals. This is particularly true if you're talking about a group in a clinical setting, so there "diabetes patient" starts to make more sense relative to "people with diabetes" because you're adding the specification of them being patients which is relevant to the context of the discussion.

But even then, I think it's better to be safe than sorry - if referring to someone unknown, why not just say "patient(s) with diabetes" or "people with diabetes?" I haven't run across anyone who prefers "diabetes patients" to "patients with diabetes." I guess there might be some out there - but I have seen preference (moderate to strong) run in the other direction.

I would imagine that if you're comparing patients with diabetes and patients with cardiac disease and patients with pulmonary, etc., all the extra verbiage could get tiresome.

917 Obdicut  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 1:33:26pm

re: #916 Talking Point Detective

But even then, I think it's better to be safe than sorry - if referring to someone unknown, why not just say "patient(s) with diabetes" or "people with diabetes?"

For the reason I already stated. I think that doing so is categorizing the condition as a problem-- though with diabetes, I don't think it's as big a deal as with something that's mental or behavioral.

I would imagine that if you're comparing patients with diabetes and patients with cardiac disease and patients with pulmonary, etc., all the extra verbiage could get tiresome

Yep. Which is why so much of the literature just refers to treatment of diabetes, or research of diabetes, completely negating the patient entirely.

918 Talking Point Detective  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 2:03:59pm

re: #917 Obdicut

For the reason I already stated. I think that doing so is categorizing the condition as a problem-- though with diabetes, I don't think it's as big a deal as with something that's mental or behavioral.

That's a relevant distinction. Diabetes might more acceptably viewed as a "malfunction" than autism - and there is an implicit suggestion of malfunction if you say "person with autism." No one suggests saying "person with blonde hair" instead of "blonde person." On the other hand, no one would suggest "brain-diseased person" as opposed to "person with brain disease" - unless they had the specific intent of negative implications.

So we wind up weighing the implication of defining a person as autistic against the implication of suggesting that autism is a problem condition.

I guess that either way you'd run the risk of offending someone.

My consideration is what is more accurate, combined with which term is most likely to be viewed as offensive. Is autism a defining characteristic or a character trait that is selectively identified as being defining? I'd lean towards autism being a character trait that is selectively identified as being defining. That viewpoint comes from working with autistic kids (or other "disabled" kids) in a mainstream classroom, and seeing how the determination of what is a defining characteristic is often, more or less, arbitrary and based on social prejudices. I suppose that if I were autistic, I might feel differently. I don't know how to judge what might be most prevalent in the "autistic community/community of people with autism."

It's clear that many in the deaf community have a very strong position on these issues, and feel that taking away the defining nature of their deafness is based in prejudice.

Food for more thought.

919 Talking Point Detective  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 2:06:34pm

re: #918 Talking Point Detective

I suppose that if I were autistic,

Lol!

The thing I find most important is not to simply dismiss the questions as irrelevant, and to examine where our own language can be reflective of prejudices.

920 Obdicut  Thu, Nov 17, 2011 2:18:52pm

re: #918 Talking Point Detective

Is autism a defining characteristic or a character trait that is selectively identified as being defining? I'd lean towards autism being a character trait that is selectively identified as being defining.

I don't see the use of the word 'autistic' as being more defining than 'person with autism'. And there's lots of people who self-identify as 'autists'.

[Link: autistscorner.blogspot.com...]
[Link: www.themusicalautist.com...]
[Link: www.markfoster.net...]

Telling them they're wrong to do so by using the 'person with autism' phrase, or, indeed, insisting on any phrase as being more correct than the other, is my problem. When you start making a big deal about it is when I feel the real definition of the person with the condition occurs.


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