Herman Cain: The Taliban Are Taking Over Libya

Slow motion train wreck continues
Wingnuts • Views: 21,806

Here’s yet another almost painful video clip, showing Herman Cain at a press conference today in Florida attempting to field questions about his disconnected interview on Libya and foreign policy earlier this week.

In this episode, Mr. Cain explains that Libya is now a country in which the Taliban are going to be part of the government. Yes, really.

Youtube Video

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142 comments
1 albusteve  Fri, Nov 18, 2011 3:05:40pm

Cains gaff compilation will be taller than GE’s Tax return….
Olympian!

2 albusteve  Fri, Nov 18, 2011 3:07:33pm

like the Sioux showing up to occupy 1868 Chicago

3 wrenchwench  Fri, Nov 18, 2011 3:08:24pm

His tie is not “yellow”. It’s “gold”. That’s his “power color”.

He needs to find his “intelligence color”.

45!

4 jaunte  Fri, Nov 18, 2011 3:08:27pm

All that “please be more specific with your question” stuff would have been helpful when the question was asked, instead of a day or so later.

5 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Nov 18, 2011 3:08:28pm

re: #2 albusteve

like the Sioux showing up to occupy 1868 Chicago

And why the hell not?

6 albusteve  Fri, Nov 18, 2011 3:09:14pm

imagine the Talis trying to figure out the traffic light system in Tripoli

7 HappyWarrior  Fri, Nov 18, 2011 3:09:25pm

Dare I say, I think this shows even more than the aforementioned interview how out of his depth he is on matters of foreign policy.

8 Ghost of Gus  Fri, Nov 18, 2011 3:09:25pm

It’s like a row of dominoes falling down. One flub after the other. I do believe we have a Domino Theory at play here.

9 HappyWarrior  Fri, Nov 18, 2011 3:10:19pm

re: #8 Gus 802

It’s like a row of dominoes falling down. One flub after the other. I do believe we have a Domino Theory at play here.

That’s the theory if you keep on buying Domino’s Pizza, then you will want to buy more, right?

10 Ghost of Gus  Fri, Nov 18, 2011 3:10:26pm

“Cain comments on awkward answer with awkward answer.”

11 albusteve  Fri, Nov 18, 2011 3:11:12pm

re: #5 SanFranciscoZionist

And why the hell not?

because they would all be killed outside DeMoines

12 Lidane  Fri, Nov 18, 2011 3:11:54pm

At least he’s not a condescending law professor like Obama! Herman Cain is a REAL American and a REAL African-American! He can’t be expected to know all the details! Besides, what he doesn’t know, we’ll teach him.

Why do you hate America?

///

13 jaunte  Fri, Nov 18, 2011 3:12:00pm

“Now, I may have said Taliban, in my rush to get the question answered fully, but I’m sure you reader-types know what I meant.”

14 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Nov 18, 2011 3:12:16pm

re: #6 albusteve

imagine the Talis trying to figure out the traffic light system in Tripoli

There is no ‘figure out the traffic light system’. There is only “Join battle with those things…the little fast tanks…whatever. Charge ‘em!!”

15 darthstar  Fri, Nov 18, 2011 3:12:49pm

Okay, who told Herman Cain there was such a thing as the Taliban? Given as much studying he’s had to do lately to make up for his gaffes, I’m surprised Cain hasn’t cited Skeletor as a threat to our freedoms and fetuses.

16 FemNaziBitch  Fri, Nov 18, 2011 3:12:54pm

Do I have to watch? —I don’t wanna.

17 HappyWarrior  Fri, Nov 18, 2011 3:13:12pm

re: #16 ggt

Do I have to watch? —I don’t wanna.

It’s pretty bad.

18 albusteve  Fri, Nov 18, 2011 3:13:55pm

news flash…
“untold masses of roving Taliban now threaten Johannnesburg!”

19 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Nov 18, 2011 3:14:08pm

re: #7 HappyWarrior

Dare I say, I think this shows even more than the aforementioned interview how out of his depth he is on matters of foreign policy.

All giggling aside, I think I got it right last thread—he’s not distinguishing in his head between ‘Taliban’ and ‘Islamic extremist’. He’s using it generically, and it doesn’t work.

20 HappyWarrior  Fri, Nov 18, 2011 3:14:14pm

I’ll bank money on him refering to the Russians as “Soviets” next.

21 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, Nov 18, 2011 3:14:24pm

Somebody, whisper to him that Hamas, Hezbollah and Baath are in too.

22 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Nov 18, 2011 3:14:27pm

re: #11 albusteve

because they would all be killed outside DeMoines

OK, ruin the fun.

23 Ghost of Gus  Fri, Nov 18, 2011 3:14:54pm

re: #20 HappyWarrior

I’ll bank money on him refering to the Russians as “Soviets” next.

You mean to tell me that Sergey is a Soviet??!!11ty

//

24 jaunte  Fri, Nov 18, 2011 3:15:02pm

re: #21 Sergey Romanov

A buncha Ubekis.

25 darthstar  Fri, Nov 18, 2011 3:15:14pm

Herman Cain has a lot of questions for Herman Cain…does he agree? A yes or no answer would be helpful.

26 HappyWarrior  Fri, Nov 18, 2011 3:15:18pm

re: #19 SanFranciscoZionist

All giggling aside, I think I got it right last thread—he’s not distinguishing in his head between ‘Taliban’ and ‘Islamic extremist’. He’s using it generically, and it doesn’t work.

I like that theory. Makes a ton of sense because I see people do it. They’re not running for president though.

27 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, Nov 18, 2011 3:15:35pm

re: #20 HappyWarrior

I’ll bank money on him refering to the Russians as “Soviets” next.

Or to Soviets as Russians.

(No sarc tag. Annoying as heck.)

28 Obdicut  Fri, Nov 18, 2011 3:15:47pm

Hey Cain:

Making it easy


Can I be your foreign relations adviser?

I can do a better job than whoever you’ve got now.

29 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Nov 18, 2011 3:15:47pm

re: #23 Gus 802

You mean to tell me that Sergey is a Soviet??!!11ty

//

I assume that Sergey used to be a Soviet.

He got bettah.

30 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, Nov 18, 2011 3:15:55pm

re: #23 Gus 802

You mean to tell me that Sergey is a Soviet??!!11ty

//

I was once.

31 albusteve  Fri, Nov 18, 2011 3:16:14pm

re: #22 SanFranciscoZionist

OK, ruin the fun.

sniff…

32 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Nov 18, 2011 3:16:15pm

re: #24 jaunte

A buncha Ubekis.

That’s ‘Ubekibekibekis’ to you.

33 Ghost of Gus  Fri, Nov 18, 2011 3:16:58pm

All them people in Africa talking African and stuff.

34 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Nov 18, 2011 3:17:18pm

re: #32 SanFranciscoZionist

That’s ‘Ubekibekibekis’ to you.

“Ubeki” is an ethnic slur. I just decided.

35 albusteve  Fri, Nov 18, 2011 3:17:26pm

re: #26 HappyWarrior

I like that theory. Makes a ton of sense because I see people do it. They’re not running for president though.

you can learn the entire Taliban history in ten minutes

36 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Nov 18, 2011 3:18:16pm

re: #35 albusteve

you can learn the entire Taliban history in ten minutes

Does any part of it involve being in the Libyan government?

37 Ghost of CuriousLurker  Fri, Nov 18, 2011 3:18:23pm

re: #30 Sergey Romanov

I was once.

Heh, every time I hear Soviet this plays in my head:

38 HappyWarrior  Fri, Nov 18, 2011 3:18:33pm

re: #27 Sergey Romanov

Or to Soviets as Russians.

(No sarc tag. Annoying as heck.)

I don’t blame ya. I think I’ve mentioned my cousin’s Slovak coworkers and how she likes to tease them on her off hours by pretending to be an ignorant tourist who thinks they’re Russians.

39 HappyWarrior  Fri, Nov 18, 2011 3:19:28pm

re: #35 albusteve

you can learn the entire Taliban history in ten minutes

Yeah like how the Taliban helped Saddam Hussein and the Ayatollah in their rises to power :).

40 albusteve  Fri, Nov 18, 2011 3:19:39pm

re: #36 SanFranciscoZionist

Does any part of it involve being in the Libyan government?

that comes in the 11th minute, according to Professor Cain

41 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, Nov 18, 2011 3:20:17pm

re: #30 Sergey Romanov

I was once.

(And I sure hope I won’t ever be one again. Sometimes it does feel like the Beatles song, though.)

42 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Nov 18, 2011 3:21:39pm

re: #41 Sergey Romanov

(And I sure hope I won’t ever be one again. Sometimes it does feel like a Beatles song, though.)

You don’t know how lucky you are.

43 albusteve  Fri, Nov 18, 2011 3:21:57pm

ferget it…I’m not using up all my humor in this fucktard…anybody that supports this nut should be locked up, with him

44 albusteve  Fri, Nov 18, 2011 3:23:26pm

re: #41 Sergey Romanov

(And I sure hope I won’t ever be one again. Sometimes it does feel like the Beatles song, though.)

lest we never forget…
rock on comrade

45 _RememberTonyC  Fri, Nov 18, 2011 3:25:20pm

On December 7th, Herman will regale us with a history lesson on how we got into World War II after Germany bombed Pearl Harbor.

46 wilburs  Fri, Nov 18, 2011 3:25:31pm

It’s just like how the Muslim Brotherhood took over Egypt!

per Fox Wingnuts

(although they didn’t have to travel as far as the taliban would)

47 Ghost of CuriousLurker  Fri, Nov 18, 2011 3:25:31pm

re: #41 Sergey Romanov

So I have a kind of stupid question, but if I never ask it I’m never gonna get an answer, right? What, precisely, is an “ethnic Russian”? I know what the words mean, but not what constitutes one…Russia is sooo big & diverse. Help?

48 makeitstop  Fri, Nov 18, 2011 3:25:42pm

He seems to be accusing the newspaper of doing a lot of editing to that video.

How soon before they push back?

49 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Nov 18, 2011 3:26:56pm

re: #46 wilburs

It’s just like how the Muslim Brotherhood took over Egypt!

per Fox Wingnuts

(although they didn’t have to travel as far as the taliban would)

Yeah, that one doesn’t immediately make you stop and go “WTF?” in the same way.

50 Varek Raith  Fri, Nov 18, 2011 3:27:06pm

Next, Cain criticizes Obama for not sending the Marines to LV-426.

51 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, Nov 18, 2011 3:27:17pm

re: #47 CuriousLurker

So I have a kind of stupid question, but if I never ask it I’m never gonna get an answer, right? What, precisely, is an “ethnic Russian”? I know what the words mean, but not what constitutes one…Russia is sooo big & diverse. Help?

A member of a Slavic ethnicity called “Russians”. [insert geographical and historical details here]. When in English, not to be confused with Russian citizens (who can be of any ethnicity.)

52 HappyWarrior  Fri, Nov 18, 2011 3:27:32pm

re: #45 _RememberTonyC

On December 7th, Herman will regale us with a history lesson on how we got into World War II after Germany bombed Pearl Harbor.

With his guest, Senator Bluto.

53 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, Nov 18, 2011 3:28:24pm

re: #47 CuriousLurker

(Surely you don’t expect me to define an ethnicity in a comment? ;).

54 Lidane  Fri, Nov 18, 2011 3:28:26pm

re: #33 Gus 802

And all those Cubans speaking in Cuban. WTF. Why don’t they speak English?

///

55 EdDantes  Fri, Nov 18, 2011 3:29:13pm

re: #30 Sergey Romanov

I was once.

My wife was in Russia in ‘91 on an exchange program. She claims credit for the fall of the USSR. I believe her. :)

56 Ghost of CuriousLurker  Fri, Nov 18, 2011 3:29:53pm

re: #51 Sergey Romanov

A member of a Slavic ethnicity called “Russians”. [insert geographical and historical details here]. When in English, not to be confused with Russian citizens (who can be of any ethnicity.)

Okay, thanks. I tried to figure it out via Wikipedia, but I just got more confused, then ended up getting distracted: “Oh, look—cool. *click*…”

57 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, Nov 18, 2011 3:30:31pm

re: #55 EdDantes

My wife was in Russia in ‘91 on an exchange program. She claims credit for the fall of the USSR. I believe her. :)

She was the proverbial straw that broke camel’s back? ;)

58 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, Nov 18, 2011 3:31:03pm

re: #56 CuriousLurker

Yes, wiki-hopping eats time.

59 albusteve  Fri, Nov 18, 2011 3:31:11pm

Russian rock and roll
too cool

60 Amory Blaine  Fri, Nov 18, 2011 3:31:36pm

It was nice to watch his career die in Milwaukee.

61 Decatur Deb  Fri, Nov 18, 2011 3:32:34pm

re: #57 Sergey Romanov

She was the proverbial straw that broke camel’s back? ;)

One pair of black-market Levis too many?

62 albusteve  Fri, Nov 18, 2011 3:33:42pm

re: #61 Decatur Deb

One pair of black-market Levis too many?

more true than you think

63 HappyWarrior  Fri, Nov 18, 2011 3:33:54pm

re: #60 Amory Blaine

It was nice to watch his career die in Milwaukee.

Rumors of his campaign’s death may be greatly exaggerated.

64 EdDantes  Fri, Nov 18, 2011 3:34:35pm

re: #57 Sergey Romanov

Indeed.

65 FemNaziBitch  Fri, Nov 18, 2011 3:35:15pm

re: #47 CuriousLurker

So I have a kind of stupid question, but if I never ask it I’m never gonna get an answer, right? What, precisely, is an “ethnic Russian”? I know what the words mean, but not what constitutes one…Russia is sooo big & diverse. Help?

What does “ethnic” anything mean. Ethnic in my world refers to culture. So someone who identifies themselves being part of the Russian Culture —dress, foods, holidays whatever, would be “ethnically Russiain”.

66 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Fri, Nov 18, 2011 3:35:15pm

Confusing ethnicity, nationality, and citizenship: The three-card monte of nationalism.

67 Decatur Deb  Fri, Nov 18, 2011 3:35:52pm

re: #62 albusteve

more true than you think

I think sex, drugs, R&R, booze and Levis are the proper way to wage culture warfare.

68 FemNaziBitch  Fri, Nov 18, 2011 3:36:28pm

re: #67 Decatur Deb

I think sex, drugs, R&R, booze and Levis are the proper way to wage culture warfare.

You forgot CNN and MTV …

69 Amory Blaine  Fri, Nov 18, 2011 3:37:42pm

re: #67 Decatur Deb

I think sex, drugs, R&R, booze and Levis are the proper way to wage culture warfare.

Only owning stocks in said companies is permitted.

70 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, Nov 18, 2011 3:39:29pm

re: #65 ggt

Ethnicity is a complex interplay between culture, ancestry and self-identification. The term is vague, but more often than not “you know it when you see it”.

71 albusteve  Fri, Nov 18, 2011 3:39:49pm

re: #67 Decatur Deb

I think sex, drugs, R&R, booze and Levis are the proper way to wage culture warfare.

and the Stones…don’t forget the Stones
but, yeah

72 Ghost of CuriousLurker  Fri, Nov 18, 2011 3:41:21pm

re: #53 Sergey Romanov

(Surely you don’t expect me to define an ethnicity in a comment? ;).

LOL, nope. Russia is damned confusing—provinces, republics, territories, autonomous districts, etc. WTF?

So let me be sure I have it straight: When we say Russia, we’re referring to the political entity of the Russian Federation, which includes all kinds of stuff, but when we say Russian as in a person of Russian ethnicity, we mean what you said in #51. Right?

One more: So is everyone who lives in the 46 oblasts an ethnic Russian, or still no? I guess what I’m trying to do is pin it down to a geographical area. O_o

73 Decatur Deb  Fri, Nov 18, 2011 3:42:00pm

re: #71 albusteve

and the Stones…don’t forget the Stones
but, yeah

Gotcha covered—R&R. Airdrop cassettes over Talistan.

74 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Fri, Nov 18, 2011 3:42:30pm

re: #72 CuriousLurker

So is everyone who lives in the 46 oblasts an ethnic Russian

nope

75 Ghost of CuriousLurker  Fri, Nov 18, 2011 3:43:11pm

re: #74 000G

nope

Drat! I knew it wasn’t gonna be that easy.

76 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, Nov 18, 2011 3:43:59pm

re: #72 CuriousLurker

“Russian” in English is an ambigious term (just like “Jewish”). It can mean citizenship (thus a Tajik who has Russian citizenship is a Russian citizen - so is a Russian). Or it can mean ethnicity (so a Japanese citizen who is an ethnic Russian is a Russian). Russian word for an ethnic Russian is “russkij”. The term for a citizen is “rossijanin”.

77 FemNaziBitch  Fri, Nov 18, 2011 3:44:08pm

I’m ethnically an American Yankee.

I guess.

78 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Fri, Nov 18, 2011 3:45:03pm

re: #75 CuriousLurker

Drat! I knew it wasn’t gonna be that easy.

You may want to start here: [Link: en.wikipedia.org…]

79 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Nov 18, 2011 3:45:07pm

re: #72 CuriousLurker

LOL, nope. Russia is damned confusing—provinces, republics, territories, autonomous districts, etc. WTF?

So let me be sure I have it straight: When we say Russia, we’re referring to the political entity of the Russian Federation, which includes all kinds of stuff, but when we say Russian as in a person of Russian ethnicity, we mean what you said in #51. Right?

One more: So is everyone who lives in the 46 oblasts an ethnic Russian, or still no? I guess what I’m trying to do is pin it down to a geographical area. O_o

No.

This is the part that Americans generally run into trouble with—we grew up in a nation in which there is no connection between ethnicity and nation, even historically.

A person can live in Russia, have Russian citizenship, but not be an ethnic Russian, because they are, instead, Georgian or Armenian, or Ukrainian, or Vietnamese or what have you.

80 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Nov 18, 2011 3:46:19pm

re: #79 SanFranciscoZionist

No.

This is the part that Americans generally run into trouble with—we grew up in a nation in which there is no connection between ethnicity and nation, even historically.

A person can live in Russia, have Russian citizenship, but not be an ethnic Russian, because they are, instead, Georgian or Armenian, or Ukrainian, or Vietnamese or what have you.

I know a lot of couples where he’s Russian, and she’s Jewish, or vice versa. Both born in Russia, both have had family living there for generations, and speak Russian as their first language.

81 EdDantes  Fri, Nov 18, 2011 3:46:40pm

I had hope for Herm Cain because he was an outsider not involved in politics.
But as we see in this case and many others politics and governance is a specialty. In other words, I wanted a virgin with a lot of experience.

82 Ghost of CuriousLurker  Fri, Nov 18, 2011 3:47:09pm

re: #78 000G

You may want to start here: [Link: en.wikipedia.org…]

Thanks. That one looks like something I could get lost in for an entire weekend. ;) Maybe I’ll print it out so I won’t be tempted to click.

83 FemNaziBitch  Fri, Nov 18, 2011 3:48:36pm

re: #82 CuriousLurker

Thanks. That one looks like something I could get lost in for an entire weekend. ;) Maybe I’ll print it out so I won’t be tempted to click.

You could get lost in it for an entire career.

84 Ghost of CuriousLurker  Fri, Nov 18, 2011 3:49:06pm

re: #80 SanFranciscoZionist

I know a lot of couples where he’s Russian, and she’s Jewish, or vice versa. Both born in Russia, both have had family living there for generations, and speak Russian as their first language.

But he’s Russian and she’s not? No matter their shared language or how long their families have been living there?

85 Ghost of CuriousLurker  Fri, Nov 18, 2011 3:49:28pm

re: #83 ggt

You could get lost in it for an entire career.

No doubt!

86 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, Nov 18, 2011 3:50:23pm

re: #84 CuriousLurker

But he’s Russian and she’s not? No matter their shared language or how long their families have been living there?

Since she is Jewish (I presume ethnically) she already is not ethnically Russian, unless you consider that belonging to several ethnicities is possible (which I wouldn’t rule out).

87 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Fri, Nov 18, 2011 3:51:35pm

re: #84 CuriousLurker

One thing to keep in mind is that if you do not believe in “objective” criteria to be sufficient for making the call, then self-identification trumps all.

88 Ghost of CuriousLurker  Fri, Nov 18, 2011 3:52:36pm

re: #86 Sergey Romanov

I guess 000G had the right idea. I guess don’t really fully/properly understand the meaning of “ethnic”. But I will!

89 HappyWarrior  Fri, Nov 18, 2011 3:53:09pm

The question of ethnicity I think is even tougher with Americans especially since many of us have multi-ethnic backgrounds. My dad’s background is German-Irish while my mom has more Slavic ancestry. So am I Celtic, Germanic, Slavic, or merely white? I id as Irish and Slavic since that’s what I identify with most culturally.

90 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Fri, Nov 18, 2011 3:53:32pm

re: #86 Sergey Romanov

Since she is Jewish (I presume ethnically) she already is not ethnically Russian, unless you consider that belonging to several ethnicities is possible (which I wouldn’t rule out).

It’s weird how in the ethnodiscourse of European nations, being an ethnic Jew in any sense usually meant that you could not be a member of the “host” nation’s main ethnicity.

Kinda like the one-drop-rule.

Point 4 of the NSDAP platform.

91 FemNaziBitch  Fri, Nov 18, 2011 3:53:44pm

re: #88 CuriousLurker

I guess 000G had the right idea. I guess don’t really fully/properly understand the meaning of “ethnic”. But I will!

start with the etymology:

“people of one’s own kind”

Whatever … .

92 Ghost of CuriousLurker  Fri, Nov 18, 2011 3:53:44pm

re: #87 000G

One thing to keep in mind is that if you do not believe in “objective” criteria to be sufficient for making the call, then self-identification trumps all.

Oh, great. Now you threw a monkey wrench into the whole thing. Gah! ;)

93 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, Nov 18, 2011 3:53:57pm

re: #87 000G

Something like that, but even that is not absolute. Given the objective vagueness of the term, we can have a situation where some people think that a person belongs to the group and some don’t - and they all are correct, just from their perspectives.

94 Ghost of CuriousLurker  Fri, Nov 18, 2011 3:54:34pm

re: #91 ggt

start with the etymology:

Cool resource. Thanks.

96 FemNaziBitch  Fri, Nov 18, 2011 3:55:10pm

re: #94 CuriousLurker

Cool resource. Thanks.

I usually start most research with the etymology of the word.

97 FemNaziBitch  Fri, Nov 18, 2011 3:55:28pm
98 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Nov 18, 2011 3:55:43pm

re: #80 SanFranciscoZionist

I know a lot of couples where he’s Russian, and she’s Jewish, or vice versa. Both born in Russia, both have had family living there for generations, and speak Russian as their first language.

This also leads to lots of confusing conversations within the Jewish community, where ‘country where your minhag originated’ is often used as shorthand. So when people say ‘German’, say, they mean ‘German Jews’, and if a distinction then has to be made, something like, “Oh, you mean they’re not yekies, they’re ethnic Germans?” If I say, “We’re trying to get the Russians involved,” I mean Russian Jews in my area, but if someone says of one of those Russians, “Oh, Irina’s father is Russian,” I know we mean he’s not Jewish.

If this is enough to make your head spin, that’s perfectly normal.

:)

99 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Fri, Nov 18, 2011 3:56:01pm

re: #93 Sergey Romanov

Something like that, but even that is not absolute. Given the objective vagueness of the term, we can have a situation where some people think that a person belongs to the group and some don’t - and they all are correct, just from their perspectives.

Depends on what “correct” means. I am more talking validity than correctness. Under any liberal sense of law, self-identification absolutely does trump all. I believe in today’s EU, you could literally declare yourself to belong to whatever ethnicity you wanted to and then claim whatever benefits etc. applied in certain places.

100 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, Nov 18, 2011 3:56:02pm

re: #90 000G

There is that too. E.g. the infamous Union of the Russian People wouldn’t let any Jews join - baptized or not, Russified or not.

101 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Nov 18, 2011 3:56:22pm

re: #84 CuriousLurker

But he’s Russian and she’s not? No matter their shared language or how long their families have been living there?

Yup.

102 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Nov 18, 2011 3:57:45pm

re: #89 HappyWarrior

The question of ethnicity I think is even tougher with Americans especially since many of us have multi-ethnic backgrounds. My dad’s background is German-Irish while my mom has more Slavic ancestry. So am I Celtic, Germanic, Slavic, or merely white? I id as Irish and Slavic since that’s what I identify with most culturally.

In the old Soviet Union, IIIRC you selected one to go on your internal passport.

103 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, Nov 18, 2011 3:58:32pm

re: #99 000G

Well, if you just declare yourself Jewish, you won’t get Israeli citizenship, so again, different rules, different perspectives.

104 FemNaziBitch  Fri, Nov 18, 2011 3:58:45pm

I’m off —have a great evening all!

105 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Nov 18, 2011 3:58:54pm

re: #98 SanFranciscoZionist

This also leads to lots of confusing conversations within the Jewish community, where ‘country where your minhag originated’ is often used as shorthand. So when people say ‘German’, say, they mean ‘German Jews’, and if a distinction then has to be made, something like, “Oh, you mean they’re not yekies, they’re ethnic Germans?” If I say, “We’re trying to get the Russians involved,” I mean Russian Jews in my area, but if someone says of one of those Russians, “Oh, Irina’s father is Russian,” I know we mean he’s not Jewish.

If this is enough to make your head spin, that’s perfectly normal.

:)

Please note, you can still be a “German” in the Jewish community, even if your last European-born ancestor hopped a boat for New York in 1830.

106 Ghost of CuriousLurker  Fri, Nov 18, 2011 3:58:56pm

re: #89 HappyWarrior

The question of ethnicity I think is even tougher with Americans especially since many of us have multi-ethnic backgrounds. My dad’s background is German-Irish while my mom has more Slavic ancestry. So am I Celtic, Germanic, Slavic, or merely white? I id as Irish and Slavic since that’s what I identify with most culturally.

THIS. We’re such a mish-mash. I have German, English, Spanish (Catalan), and Mexican ancestry (which is mixed with Spanish & “indio”), then throw in my Muslim identity and…yikes! O_o

107 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Fri, Nov 18, 2011 3:59:33pm

re: #103 Sergey Romanov

Well, if you just declare yourself Jewish, you won’t get Israeli citizenship, so again, different rules, different perspectives.

Well, yeah, Israel’s laws regarding that issue are not exactly the most liberal around.

108 Ghost of CuriousLurker  Fri, Nov 18, 2011 4:01:04pm

re: #98 SanFranciscoZionist

This also leads to lots of confusing conversations within the Jewish community, where ‘country where your minhag originated’ is often used as shorthand. So when people say ‘German’, say, they mean ‘German Jews’, and if a distinction then has to be made, something like, “Oh, you mean they’re not yekies, they’re ethnic Germans?” If I say, “We’re trying to get the Russians involved,” I mean Russian Jews in my area, but if someone says of one of those Russians, “Oh, Irina’s father is Russian,” I know we mean he’s not Jewish.

If this is enough to make your head spin, that’s perfectly normal.

:)

Yes, my head is definitely spinning! Interesting stuff though. :)

109 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, Nov 18, 2011 4:01:08pm

re: #107 000G

Well, yeah, Israel’s laws regarding that issue are not exactly the most liberal around.

Maybe, but the point of immigration laws is not to be liberal.

110 HappyWarrior  Fri, Nov 18, 2011 4:01:45pm

re: #106 CuriousLurker

THIS. We’re such a mish-mash. I have German, English, Spanish (Catalan), and Mexican ancestry (which is mixed with Spanish & “indio”), then throw in my Muslim identity and…yikes! O_o

Yep and it gets more mish mashy as generations and generations become Americanized. Glad you mentioned Spanish and Mexican because my studies of Latin American history taught me that the Spanish colonizers had a very elaborate form of classification. The Creoles, Meztios, etc.

111 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Fri, Nov 18, 2011 4:01:48pm

re: #109 Sergey Romanov

Maybe, but the point of immigration laws is not to be liberal.

I wasn’t talking immigration laws. And yes, I know the two issues are related.

112 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, Nov 18, 2011 4:02:01pm

(BTW, sorry for decrease in updings, I’m trying to type here ;).

113 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, Nov 18, 2011 4:03:29pm

re: #111 000G

I wasn’t talking immigration laws. And yes, I know the two issues are related.

Immigration laws are the area where the issue comes up most starkly. They do tend to illustrate my point about differing standards.

114 Ghost of CuriousLurker  Fri, Nov 18, 2011 4:05:09pm

re: #110 HappyWarrior

Yep and it gets more mish mashy as generations and generations become Americanized. Glad you mentioned Spanish and Mexican because my studies of Latin American history taught me that the Spanish colonizers had a very elaborate form of classification. The Creoles, Meztios, etc.

Oh, yeah, the Spaniards. Ick. (The “ick” being for their treatment of peoples native to the New World and other nasty bits of their history, not Spaniards in general.)

115 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, Nov 18, 2011 4:06:13pm

re: #99 000G

Depends on what “correct” means. I am more talking validity than correctness. Under any liberal sense of law, self-identification absolutely does trump all. I believe in today’s EU, you could literally declare yourself to belong to whatever ethnicity you wanted to and then claim whatever benefits etc. applied in certain places.

Thinking of this: Germany “freely” gives citizenship to two groups from ex-USSR - ethnic Germans and Jews. For neither self-identification is sufficient.

116 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Fri, Nov 18, 2011 4:07:22pm

re: #113 Sergey Romanov

Immigration laws are the area where the issue comes up most starkly.

Not really true in today’s EU. There it’s mostly a citizenship thing. Consider Hungary’s shennanigans about conferring Hungarian citizenship towards ethnic Magyars in neighbouring states.

117 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Fri, Nov 18, 2011 4:08:09pm

re: #115 Sergey Romanov

Thinking of this: Germany “freely” gives citizenship to two groups from ex-USSR - ethnic Germans and Jews. For neither self-identification is sufficient.

But that is about acquisitions of citizenship, not ethnicity.

118 Ghost of CuriousLurker  Fri, Nov 18, 2011 4:08:18pm

re: #112 Sergey Romanov

(BTW, sorry for decrease in updings, I’m trying to type here ;).

Don’t worry, I’ll pass out some updings for you while you’re typing, heh.

119 HappyWarrior  Fri, Nov 18, 2011 4:09:15pm

I think it’s even more complicated with stateless groups like the Roma. Roma people have lived all over Europe for centuries. So, the question becomes for example are you a Roma who lives in say Slovakia or a Slovakian of Roma decent.

120 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, Nov 18, 2011 4:09:42pm

re: #117 000G

But that is about acquisitions of citizenship, not ethnicity.

?
To acquire citizenship in these cases you must be of “correct” ethnicity (and/or religion), proven by documents.

121 HappyWarrior  Fri, Nov 18, 2011 4:10:30pm

re: #114 CuriousLurker

Oh, yeah, the Spaniards. Ick. (The “ick” being for their treatment of peoples native to the New World and other nasty bits of their history, not Spaniards in general.)

Yeah brutal stuff though my class dealt with post colonizations so I didn’t learn too much about that.

122 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Fri, Nov 18, 2011 4:11:02pm

re: #120 Sergey Romanov

?
To acquire citizenship in these cases you must be of “correct” ethnicity (and/or religion), proven by documents.

Yes, but that “correct” ethnicity is proven by virtue of a certain aspect of a (former) citizenship status. So it’s really an official, “objective”, citizenship-citizenship relation.

My prior point about self-identification of course only holds true for people who already are EU citizens.

123 Decatur Deb  Fri, Nov 18, 2011 4:11:46pm

Hah—our escaped meth-cooker, the one who shot his ankle bracelet off, is running around the county on a motorcycle, shooting at cops. Just dropped the bike and hijacked a pickup truck.

124 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, Nov 18, 2011 4:13:02pm

re: #122 000G

Yes, but that “correct” ethnicity is proven by virtue of a certain aspect of a (former) citizenship status. So it’s really an official, “objective”, citizenship-citizenship relation.

My prior point about self-identification of course only holds true for people who already are EU citizens.

OK, technicality.

125 Ghost of CuriousLurker  Fri, Nov 18, 2011 4:13:25pm

re: #123 Decatur Deb

*blinks* Escaped meth-cooker? Wow, I missed that one.

126 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Nov 18, 2011 4:13:28pm

re: #121 HappyWarrior

Yeah brutal stuff though my class dealt with post colonizations so I didn’t learn too much about that.

The slidey slippy connections between race, ethnicity, class and religion get wildly complicated there. I’m guessing that a Spaniard with, say, a French mother, would have been considered a full Spaniard for the sake of the colonial system, while an Indian or African mother made him something else completely.

The part of that system I always find mind-blowing is that it distinguished between Spaniards born in the old country, and those born in the New.

127 Obdicut  Fri, Nov 18, 2011 4:14:15pm

re: #123 Decatur Deb

Hah—our escaped meth-cooker, the one who shot his ankle bracelet off, is running around the county on a motorcycle, shooting at cops. Just dropped the bike and hijacked a pickup truck.

I’m starting to hear banjo music every time you post.

128 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, Nov 18, 2011 4:14:30pm

OK, lizards, nice chat we’ve had, but skyrim won’t play itself.
laterz

129 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Fri, Nov 18, 2011 4:16:10pm

Colonial system was deeply racist: The Code Noir was valid until 1848. Nobody in the Age of Enlightenment had demanded that it be repealed.

130 Decatur Deb  Fri, Nov 18, 2011 4:16:33pm

re: #125 CuriousLurker

*blinks* Escaped meth-cooker? Wow, I missed that one.

Yeah—I posted about him on yesterday’s coffee-klatch. He shot his ankle monitor off his leg and boogied with his arsenal.

131 HappyWarrior  Fri, Nov 18, 2011 4:17:22pm

re: #126 SanFranciscoZionist

The slidey slippy connections between race, ethnicity, class and religion get wildly complicated there. I’m guessing that a Spaniard with, say, a French mother, would have been considered a full Spaniard for the sake of the colonial system, while an Indian or African mother made him something else completely.

The part of that system I always find mind-blowing is that it distinguished between Spaniards born in the old country, and those born in the New.

Yeah the distinguishing those of Spanish decent born in Spain and the new world from what I recall helped spark the revolutions. Bolivar I believe was a Creole belonging to the latter. And it’s also interesting later as nationalism rises in the regions too.

132 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Nov 18, 2011 4:17:24pm

re: #130 Decatur Deb

Yeah—I posted about him on yesterday’s coffee-klatch. He shot his ankle monitor off his leg and boogied with his arsenal.

Oh…great.

Best of luck to those in pursuit, and those who may cross paths with him.

133 HappyWarrior  Fri, Nov 18, 2011 4:18:32pm

re: #129 000G

Colonial system was deeply racist: The Code Noir was valid until 1848. Nobody in the Age of Enlightenment had demanded that it be repealed.

Aw neat. Not familiar with French colonization codes.

134 Ghost of CuriousLurker  Fri, Nov 18, 2011 4:19:51pm

re: #126 SanFranciscoZionist

The slidey slippy connections between race, ethnicity, class and religion get wildly complicated there. I’m guessing that a Spaniard with, say, a French mother, would have been considered a full Spaniard for the sake of the colonial system, while an Indian or African mother made him something else completely.

The part of that system I always find mind-blowing is that it distinguished between Spaniards born in the old country, and those born in the New.

Oh, they’re picky alright. My grandpa (not blood grandpa as he was my grandma’s last husband, but he was the only one I ever knew and I loved him to death), was fair skinned, had green eyes, and completely identified as Spanish even though his immediate ancestors were form Mexico. Woe be unto the person who made the mistake of calling him a Mexican. “I’m not a GOD DAMNED MEXICAN, I’m a SPANIARD, do you understand me??!”

135 Decatur Deb  Fri, Nov 18, 2011 4:20:37pm

re: #132 SanFranciscoZionist

Oh…great.

Best of luck to those in pursuit, and those who may cross paths with him.

Calling this as a “Code Puce”. We’ll lock the doors, but not open the gun safe yet.

136 Ghost of CuriousLurker  Fri, Nov 18, 2011 4:22:00pm

re: #129 000G

Colonial system was deeply racist: The Code Noir was valid until 1848. Nobody in the Age of Enlightenment had demanded that it be repealed.

Annnnd another thing I’ve never heard of before (or if I ever did, I forgot). So much to learn, so little time…

137 Ghost of CuriousLurker  Fri, Nov 18, 2011 4:25:25pm

Thanks for all the info, everyone. I’m gonna bounce on outta here and let you guys stay upstairs now. Laters.

138 funky chicken  Fri, Nov 18, 2011 6:04:11pm

re: #19 SanFranciscoZionist

All giggling aside, I think I got it right last thread—he’s not distinguishing in his head between ‘Taliban’ and ‘Islamic extremist’. He’s using it generically, and it doesn’t work.

i’m sure he meant Al Qaeda, or however it’s supposed to be spelled.

It’s still stupid.

139 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Fri, Nov 18, 2011 8:07:26pm

I love the sound of Conservative Authentic Blackness in the morning e_e

140 Robert O.  Fri, Nov 18, 2011 8:56:21pm

We must stop those Taliban from blowing up the Stonehenge in Libya!

141 Sol Berdinowitz  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 12:18:13am

re: #30 Sergey Romanov

I was once.

there is an ongoing discussion about whether Soviet is a matter of birth or of choice…

142 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 2:37:07am

re: #141 ralphieboy

there is an ongoing discussion about whether Soviet is a matter of birth or of choice…

A matter of neither - it’s a matter of citizenship.


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