The ‘Stalinist’ Who Came In From The Cold

Anti-Muslim blogger Fjordman continues peddling fascism
LGF • Views: 26,901

I recently published a book in Norwegian attacking the counterjihadist movement, and the naiveté shown towards it by, for instance, Norwegian media. This has annoyed certain bloggers, including Baron Bodissey at Gates of Vienna, who promptly decided to attack me.

Normally, I would not bother answering an article attacking me at Gates of Vienna. It’s a waste of time. But this time, Edward S. May – or “Baron Bodissey,” as he likes calling himself – really disappoints me. He calls me a Stalinist. It’s disappointingly uncreative, in light of the words friends of Peder (Fjordman) Jensen have previously been inclined to describe me with. I have been called a ‘Bolshevik’, a ‘vile communist animal’, an ‘infiltrator’ and a ‘foaming fanatic’; not to speak of my favourite – ‘Bizarro Fjordman’, presumably because I am the evil reflection of Fjordman in a dark, alternative universe. I’ve always liked dark, alternative universes. For instance, I just can’t wait to get started on the new game in the Elder Scrolls series, Skyrim.

In light of these creative terms, ‘Stalinist’ and ‘left-wing extremist’ are simply not very impressive. After all, I’ve seen comments in newspaper debates using my supposed ‘lack of personal hygiene’ as an argument. And I’ve been likened to Senator Joseph McCarthy, as well. That’s creative. The self-declared Baron, whose demesne is inhabitated by a number of extremist internet idiots, must be suffering from a writer’s block. It’s rather sad, really.

Why are they so angry? Because I have dared to point out that Peder Jensen’s thinking is fascist. “That can’t be!” claims Gates of Vienna, and it must be an unfounded claim, proving – thus – that I am not merely a fool, but a lone Stalinist (in fact, I’m sure that being lonely is quite common for Stalinists these days, clinging on to ideological idiocy from the past certainly won’t win you many friends, although it does seem to have done the trick for certain essayists – as long as they merely update the ideological idiocy a tiny bit).

The problem for the Baron – should I address him as The Right Honourable Edmund S. May, perchance? – is that my claim that Fjordman is a fascist is not unfounded at all. In fact, I have used a standard definition of fascism from one of the leading researchers in the field, Roger Griffin, and I have compared the various elements of Fjordman’s writings to this definition. That article was posted on my own blog, but it was also posted at Little Green Footballs, an internet fiefdom much loathed by the inhabitants of the Baron’s barony. That might be worth pointing out, since the Right Honourable Lord and his minions have surely spotted my article. As I am – probably – nothing but a mere peasant who can be treated according to the Baron’s very whims, it is probably somewhat imprudent of me to point out the obvious. Yet, as one hadith seldomly quoted on Gates of Vienna reminds us: ‘The best jihad (a determined struggle, that is) is to speak truth in the face of a tyrant’.

Therefore, I will note the following: If you plan to refute my writings, it would probably serve you well to actually read them, and not merely pretend that you know what they are saying. Alas, I’m not too convinced about the Right Honorable Lord’s abilities to complete such a monstrous task. After all, I am what his friends at the Tundra Tabloids describes as nothing less than a ‘repugnant Norwegian’. In fact, they have even published a lovely picture of myself together with Marx, Stalin and other Communist leaders wearing party hats; abusing the work of a freelance photographer in the process. Count KGS, I presume that must be his title, thus shows a remarkable level of class.

In the light of this, I find it necessary to point out, that the task the Right Honourable Lord gives me, namely to find examples of “aggressive nationalism” from Fjordman is hardly a very demanding one. In a strongly anti-Western - yes, I said it, anti-Western - essay called “Preparing for Ragnarök”, published within the borders of The Honourable Lord’s own barony, the socalled “brilliant scholar and fine writer’, Peder (Fjordman) Jensen that is, has for instance noted the following:

Experience also tells us that if two or more different populations inhabit the same land, they will eventually mix. In combination, this means that the only way European civilization can flourish in the long run is if we have large territories specifically dedicated for people who are overwhelmingly of demographic European stock. In those cases where this has been lost it needs to be reestablished. Ideas matter, but culture primarily follows genes.

In the same essay he draws heavily upon a leading representative of the decidedly neo-fascist nouvelle droite movement, Guillaume Faye. In addition, he calls for us to become ‘great warriors’ in order to achieve this rebirth from ‘decadence, betrayal and suicidal tolerance’. That fear of mixing populations, that focus on culture as ‘primarily [following genes]’, that focus on ‘decadence’ and ‘betrayal’, the weight put on Whiteness, the call for warriors, the dreams of revolutionary change, and even the very suggestion that ‘those who have championed the toxic ideas of Multiculturalism and mass immigration of alien tribes [must] disappear with [them]’ – all of it – places Fjordman squarely within Roger Griffin’s widely used definition of fascism:

[F]ascism is best defined as a revolutionary form of nationalism, one that sets out to be a political, social and ethical revolution, welding the ‘people’ into a dynamic national community under new elites infused with heroic values. The core myth that inspires this project is that only a populist, trans-class movement of purifying, cathartic national rebirth (palingenesis) can stem the tide of decadence.

In addition, it makes Peder (Fjordman) Jensen very much of an anti-American, although I am confident that he will claim the very opposite.

Examples such as this one are obviously somewhat problematic for the Baron and the citizens of his very own internet realm, since this particular “Stalinist” peasant has acquired a certain level of literacy, and thus is fully capable of actually reading the articles and books written by his political opponents. The message of Jensen - and for that matter of The Right Honourable Lord himself - are perfectly clear. It is indeed a message of “aggressive nationalism”.

The Baron seems to put somewhat less weight on the importance of reading, and thus - amusingly - claims that I am against freedom of speech. I would like to point out that the Right Honourable Lord himself seems to have rather amicable feelings towards the Dutch politician Geert Wilders, a politician who has suggested that the Qu’ran should be outright banned; an amicability which does not seem to match entirely with the Lord’s concern with freedom of speech. More interestingly however, his claim that I am against such freedom seems to be based on a slight misunderstanding of the very concept of freedom of speech, leading the Right Honourable Lord to believe that freedom of speech means that he should be able to say whatever he wants whenever he wants and especially in newspapers owned by other people entirely.

The Right Honorable Lord might benefit from noting that I have in fact supported his freedom of speech, and also the freedom of speech of likeminded fools with and without titles of nobility. I have repeatedly pointed out that if we want to live in a free and democratic society, we will have to accept that people also are free to disseminate their disgusting ideas and – as Peder Jensen does – their dreams of a ‘native revolt’ to somehow cleanse Europe from Islam and instigate the process of Entjudung… I’m sorry, de-Eurabification.

On the other hand, I have pointed out that Norwegian newspapers are under no obligation to print such views, neither in their print editions, nor on the Internet, and that while I do not oppose extremist voices – such as Stalinists – being published, editors would benefit from not letting their newspapers being hijacked by extremists. In short, the Baron has every right to speak. And we have every right to not be listening.

In fact I have pointed out that Norwegian newspapers might benefit from adopting an editorial policy not too different from the one at… well… the Right Honourable Lord’s blog, Gates of Vienna, where comments are surely deleted and where – I quote – ‘comments are moderated; that is they must be pre-approved by the blog’s owners’. Thus, if I have attacked freedom of speech by suggesting that pre-moderation might be a good idea for Norwegian newspapers, I might point out that freedom of speech has long been abolished in the Baron’s lands. Am I therefore to conclude that the Right Honourable Lord himself is - indeed – a ‘Stalinist’?

Obviously, I do not make such a claim. After all, the Right Honourable Lord runs a fascist blog, not a Stalinist one, and his friends in Europe are neo-fascists such as the Vlaams Belang, not Stalinists such as the Norwegian Communist sect Tjen Folket and their youth department, Revolusjonær Kommunistisk Ungdom, groups which I – incidentally – criticize in the book the Right Honourable Lord has surely not read. To me, both variants of totalitarianism represent the darkest side of politics, ideas which should have been discarded long past.

The Right Honourable Lord – however – is less picky about choosing friends and allies. And that’s his problem. Not mine.

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1010 comments
1 wrenchwench  Fri, Nov 18, 2011 3:47:16pm
since this particular “Stalinist” peasant has acquired a certain level of literacy

Indeed. This is a beautiful piece of writing. It was a pleasure to read it.

I am humbled when you foreigners make me look up a word (demesne, this time).

2 Øyvind Strømmen  Fri, Nov 18, 2011 4:02:02pm

It's Old French, after all.

3 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Nov 18, 2011 4:45:28pm

You repugnant Norwegian!!

(Sorry, I couldn't resist. This is fascinating stuff. Some of it difficult for this American to contextualize, but really interesting. I may have more sophisticated comments later, once I stop crying over my student essays.)

4 Irenicum  Fri, Nov 18, 2011 5:27:05pm

This is just brilliant. And I couldn't help but giggle a little at the term "palingenesis" So many potential jokes, so little time.

5 Romantic Heretic  Fri, Nov 18, 2011 5:37:39pm

re: #1 wrenchwench

Indeed. This is a beautiful piece of writing. It was a pleasure to read it.

I am humbled when you foreigners make me look up a word (demesne, this time).

Demesne I got. Palingenisis is a new one for me. Who knew Sarah Palin had a social trait named after her?

Sorry, couldn't pass that up.

6 Charles Johnson  Fri, Nov 18, 2011 5:52:00pm

Wow. This:

Experience also tells us that if two or more different populations inhabit the same land, they will eventually mix. In combination, this means that the only way European civilization can flourish in the long run is if we have large territories specifically dedicated for people who are overwhelmingly of demographic European stock. In those cases where this has been lost it needs to be reestablished. Ideas matter, but culture primarily follows genes.

... could also serve very well as a definition of racism.

Fjordman has totally stopped pretending to be anything other than a white nationalist.

7 Obdicut  Fri, Nov 18, 2011 5:57:06pm

re: #6 Charles

Wow. This:

... could also serve very well as a definition of racism.

Fjordman has totally stopped pretending to be anything other than a white nationalist.

It's such obvious bullshit, too. "Europeans" are an admixture of a ton of different races themselves. The only unique genetics they have are related to diet, immune system, and trivial physical characteristics-- and most of those genes are latent in the human population in general. How does that paltry collected of genes account for 'culture'? The ability to digest lactose better is related to the brain how?

8 Charles Johnson  Fri, Nov 18, 2011 5:57:07pm

All of these counter-jihad bloggers have gradually settled into their bottom-feeding roles, finding their hate niches.

I'd like to thank the 2007 me for seeing where this was going and cutting them loose. Best decision I ever made, even if it did come at a cost.

9 Decatur Deb  Fri, Nov 18, 2011 5:58:33pm

re: #6 Charles

Wow. This:

... could also serve very well as a definition of racism.

Fjordman has totally stopped pretending to be anything other than a white nationalist.

"Ideas matter, but culture primarily follows genes."

He also has no notion of what a 'culture' is: "A system of learned and shared ideas, expressed through behavior."

10 wrenchwench  Fri, Nov 18, 2011 6:05:55pm

re: #9 Decatur Deb

"Ideas matter, but culture primarily follows genes."

He also has no notion of what a 'culture' is: "A system of learned and shared ideas, expressed through behavior."

He probably doesn't know what genes are either; nor how many he has in common with a chimpanzee.

11 Charles Johnson  Fri, Nov 18, 2011 6:06:58pm

I may have to promote this one to the front page. I'll leave it here overnight in case you want to edit anything, Øyvind.

12 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 2:34:35am

re: #7 Obdicut

How does that paltry collected of genes account for 'culture'? The ability to digest lactose better is related to the brain how?

I don't think that's what he is saying. What he is saying is that there is a correlation (not causation) between passing your genes and passing your culture, i.e. a "genetic Frenchman" (if there is such a thing) will tend to be a cultural Frenchman, not through genes as such but by being tending to be born into a culturally French family. In effect, Fjordman minimizes the effects of assimilation.

13 Obdicut  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 3:00:10am

re: #12 Sergey Romanov

Heh. Well, again, he's then overlooking the actual history of Europe, where wave after wave of invader and colonizer passed over the land, each time altering the culture. Hell, what is "German" culture, but an incredibly recent invention? Is he including Slavs in "European" culture? Etc.

The logic of racists is always a fetid pile of headcheese.

14 Øyvind Strømmen  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 3:06:14am

re: #11 Charles

I may have to promote this one to the front page. I'll leave it here overnight in case you want to edit anything, Øyvind.

I might have, but don't have the time. Feel free to fix any spelling or grammar mistakes though (except my British English, hehe); I've noticed a few commas out of place or not in place at all.

15 Killgore Trout  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 5:53:24pm
In light of these creative terms, ‘Stalinist’ and ‘left-wing extremist’ are simply not very impressive. After all, I’ve seen comments in newspaper debates using my supposed ‘lack of personal hygiene’ as an argument. And I’ve been likened to Senator Joseph McCarthy, as well. That’s creative. The self-declared Baron, whose demesne is inhabitated by a number of extremist internet idiots, must be suffering from a writer’s block. It’s rather sad, really.

It's like fascist, Marxist, Socialist, Theocrat, Police State etc. It's best to use these terms accurately because real extremists do exist and it cheapens the threat to use the terms too carelessly.

16 funky chicken  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 6:02:07pm

Well, if it's any comfort to you, my dad says John Stewart is a far-left Socialist, so you are in interesting company.

I know the criticism cut you to the bone. Hopefully I've been able to offer solace.///

17 ProGunLiberal  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 6:03:06pm

Turkey now has a line in the sand for Al-Assad.

Radikal's Yetkin said the Turkish military could establish a buffer zone if the Syrian army advanced on a city, like Aleppo, close to the Turkish border.

Columnist Asli Aydintasbas of Milliyet newspaper wrote: "Foreign ministry sources added that Turkey could set up a no-fly buffer zone within Syria if Syrians fleeing the army create a mass wave of migration to Turkey.

"A more extensive military intervention could come on the table only if Syrian regime starts a large-scale massacre in a big city such as Aleppo or Damascus," Aydintasbas added.

18 freetoken  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 6:04:28pm

re: #15 Killgore Trout

It's like fascist, Marxist, Socialist, Theocrat, Police State etc. It's best to use these terms accurately because real extremists do exist and it cheapens the threat to use the terms too carelessly.

I call the leader and the group of tonight's "theocrats" and I am applying it accurately. They really do, explicitly, want to institute various parts (their favorite parts, btw) of the Bible as the law of the land, under the claim that the US belongs to Jesus. And, in removing two Iowa supreme court justices who were faithfully doing their job, removed simply because the result of the justices contradicted laws in the OT, is indeed an example of what "theocracy" will mean in the 21st century in the US.

Cultural contexts are important, I think.

As for "fascist", I tried to push the term "fascistic" a while back - the idea that "fascist" can be defined narrowly or widely, but there are certain traits of past fascist states and nations that come up again and again. When a group exhibits these traits I use the term fascistic, even if these new groups aren't identical to past fascist states.

"Marxist", "Socialist" - meh, these are so poorly defined these days. In some ways we really are all "socialists" because we all believe that the government (at some level) has obligations (at some level) to support and take care of people, and we do that by raising taxes and spending.

19 freetoken  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 6:06:06pm

re: #18 freetoken

re: #18 freetoken

pimf "tonight's debate"

20 Interesting Times  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 6:08:44pm

re: #19 freetoken

You still have time to edit your post (10-min window)

21 freetoken  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 6:09:50pm

re: #20 publicityStunted

No, I don't. I only use the Spy to post... and these aren't editable.

22 Killgore Trout  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 6:12:28pm

re: #18 freetoken
Good points but I will take exception to this....

"Marxist", "Socialist" - meh, these are so poorly defined these days. In some ways we really are all "socialists" because we all believe that the government (at some level) has obligations (at some level) to support and take care of people, and we do that by raising taxes and spending.

Of course the wingnuts have been abusing the socialist thing for years but there are real socialists. OWS has served as a reminder to me that real Marxists, communists etc are still around. Most of them are quite open about it so I usually try to reserve the term for people who identify themselves as being Marxists, (etc).
I still use the terms moonnbat, hippie, wingnut fairly loosely but they're pretty vague terms anyways.

23 Killgore Trout  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 6:13:40pm
24 funky chicken  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 6:13:43pm

Definition from Wikipedia:

Stalinism refers to the ideology that Joseph Stalin conceived and implemented in the Soviet Union, and is generally considered a branch of Marxist–Leninist ideology but considered by some historians to be a significant deviation from this philosophy.[1] Stalinist policies in the Soviet Union included: rapid industrialization, Socialism in One Country, a centralized state, collectivization of agriculture, and subordination of interests of other communist parties to those of the Soviet party.[2] When used in its broadest sense, the term "Stalinist" refers to socialist states comparable to the Stalin-era Soviet Union (i.e., those characterized by a high degree of centralization, totalitarianism, the use of a secret police, propaganda, and especially brutal tactics of political coercion). According to Encyclopædia Britannica, "Stalinism is associated with a regime of terror and totalitarian rule." [3]
The term came into prominence during the mid-1930s, when Lazar Kaganovich, a Soviet politician and associate of Stalin, reportedly declared, "Let's replace Long Live Leninism with Long Live Stalinism!"[4] Stalin initially met this usage with hesitancy, dismissing it as excessively praiseful and contributing to a cult of personality.[4] In the Cold War-era United States, Stalinism took on a decidedly more negative meaning, akin to what the New York Times dubbed "red fascism."[5]

How is criticizing xenophobia Stalinist? Maybe I'm just not smart enough to get it.

25 reine.de.tout  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 6:16:29pm

re: #8 Charles

All of these counter-jihad bloggers have gradually settled into their bottom-feeding roles, finding their hate niches.

I'd like to thank the 2007 me for seeing where this was going and cutting them loose. Best decision I ever made, even if it did come at a cost.

And I thank you as well. I'll admit it was at times difficult to watch as it went on. But yes, excellent decisions.

26 goddamnedfrank  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 6:17:46pm

re: #21 freetoken

No, I don't. I only use the Spy to post... and these aren't editable.

Test.

Edit: Posted in Spy, edited by clicking on real thread article [edit 2].

27 ProGunLiberal  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 6:21:49pm

Okay, I need to change my little picture thing. Ideas? I've used pictures of cities, but that won't work here.

28 darthstar  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 6:28:52pm

Heh...this is kind of cute:
[Link: www.stumbleupon.com...]
Amish online dating...right.

29 darthstar  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 6:33:27pm

re: #23 Killgore Trout

One Percent Cat

Hey KT...did you see my new avatar?

30 Killgore Trout  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 6:37:41pm

re: #29 darthstar

Hey KT...did you see my new avatar?

Heh.

31 darthstar  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 6:38:18pm

Well...if we're slapping our cocks onto the counter to compare anyway...

Image: 318628_2561980642533_1044584660_2902694_1358873741_n.jpg

32 darthstar  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 6:39:35pm

re: #30 Killgore Trout

Heh.

I changed it for you...seriously...I do enjoy fucking with people and it's in a Steal Your Face image...so it's consistent with my Grateful Dead ways.

33 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 6:43:32pm

I love this piece. Mr. Strømmen has produced a truly brutal English Parliament-type smackdown. Truly a fine example of "cutting your opponent's throat without raising your voice".

34 goddamnedfrank  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 6:43:40pm

It's official, I'm obsessed with Tenkara fishing.

35 freetoken  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 6:47:57pm

re: #22 Killgore Trout

Good points but I will take exception to this...

Of course the wingnuts have been abusing the socialist thing for years but there are real socialists.

My point is, we really are "real" socialists! If you believe that there is a common good, a social responsibility upon the government to redistribute wealth by taxing people and giving money to others... then that is socialism. We believe in regulating enterprises - business, industry, agriculture - for the common good. We also believe in regulating the exchange of items of value (not just income.)

And I bet all of us here would qualify, to some extent (maybe more, maybe less) as socialists in this regard.

That's one reason why we take umbrage at Ron Paul and all the self-declared libertarians who want to dismantle government, eliminate government restraints on enterprises, etc.

What keeps me and most likely all of you from being properly termed "communist" is the belief in private property. I think private property is the inevitable result of humanity's move (about 10,000 years ago) toward settled existence, agriculture, and the like, which convinces me that communists proper have missed (or are just in denial of) reality. That's why I believe the real marxists are wrong to assume socialism is some sort of transition to another ideal state. Modern civilization is likely, IMO, to bounce around different flavors of socialism as the means of organizing our nations, for quite some time.

36 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 6:48:37pm

re: #34 goddamnedfrank

It's official, I'm obsessed with Tenkara fishing.

What's that? After having Battlestars Galactica and Pegasus hand me my ass again in a AT2 (basically space combat in the Battletech universe)/BSG crossover game, I might be interested in trying something new.

37 Killgore Trout  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 6:49:24pm

re: #34 goddamnedfrank

It's official, I'm obsessed with Tenkara fishing.

Tenkara fishing
Hmm, that looks right up my alley. Never heard of it before but that's something I might look into.

38 Gus  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 6:49:45pm

re: #22 Killgore Trout

Good points but I will take exception to this...

Of course the wingnuts have been abusing the socialist thing for years but there are real socialists. OWS has served as a reminder to me that real Marxists, communists etc are still around. Most of them are quite open about it so I usually try to reserve the term for people who identify themselves as being Marxists, (etc).
I still use the terms moonnbat, hippie, wingnut fairly loosely but they're pretty vague terms anyways.

You do remember that Anders Breivik murdered 70 children at the Norwegian Labour Party's annual AUF youth summer camp in Utøya, Norway correct? The Norwegian Labour Party is also a part of the Red-Green Coalition and a member of the International Socialists. AUF, or Worker's Youth League of Norway is a part of International Union of Socialist Youth. Norway's Labour Party is led by Jens Stoltenberg who himself dabbled in what you might call radical Marxism in his youth.

Stoltenberg's first steps into politics came when he was in his early teens and was influenced by his sister Camilla, who at the time was a member of the then Marxist-Leninist group Red Youth. Opposition to the Vietnam War was his triggering motivation. Following raids of heavy bombing against the North Vietnamese port city Hai Phong at the end of the Vietnam War, he participated in protest rallies targeting the United States Embassy in Oslo. He threw stones at the building and broke several windows. He escaped arrest by the police, though several of his friends were caught.

Yes. Why in fact the leader of the party that was directly targeted by this madman Breivik, Stoltenberg, had his roots in the very same type of radicalism that you define as "Marxism". It is also part of the pathology, fear and paranoia that led to Breivik's terrorist act beyond his education under the infamous Fjordman. That "enemy" that you fear is in fact the same "enemy" that Breivik feared in his deranged and warped mind.

39 Gus  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 6:51:51pm

Get. My. Point?

40 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 6:52:05pm

One funny note from Strømmen's piece:

Roger Griffin’s widely used definition of fascism:

[F]ascism is best defined as a revolutionary form of nationalism, one that sets out to be a political, social and ethical revolution, welding the ‘people’ into a dynamic national community under new elites infused with heroic values. The core myth that inspires this project is that only a populist, trans-class movement of purifying, cathartic national rebirth (palingenesis)can stem the tide of decadence.

That italicized word should be good for a few LGF joke lines, you betcha.

41 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 6:52:16pm

I'm so glad this Pages Post has been promoted!

Congrats.

42 Killgore Trout  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 6:52:46pm

re: #38 Gus 802

Yes. Why in fact the leader of the party that was directly targeted by this madman Breivik, Stoltenberg, had his roots in the very same type of radicalism that you define as "Marxism". It is also part of the pathology, fear and paranoia that led to Breivik's terrorist act beyond his education under the infamous Fjordman. That "enemy" that you fear is in fact the same "enemy" that Breivik feared in deranged mind.

Just because I'm not a supporter of Marxism doesn't mean I want to kill them. I don't like radical Islam either but I have no love for the EDL. Moderation is not an impossible position.

43 Gus  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 6:55:51pm

re: #42 Killgore Trout

Just because I'm not a supporter of Marxism doesn't mean I want to kill them. I don't like radical Islam either but I have no love for the EDL. Moderation is not an impossible position.

The point is that an unfounded fear of Marxists can lead to criminal acts in the long run. Raging against Marxists, day in and day out, has a long term negative effect on the psychologically vulnerable. You cannot judge people you are seeing at these OWS protests even if you see them marching alongside Marxists. You know very well that people grow and change with age. Robert Bork, the conservative SCOTUS nominee was also a student of Marxism in his youth.

44 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 6:56:02pm

re: #38 Gus 802

You do remember that Anders Breivik murdered 70 children at the Norwegian Labour Party's annual AUF youth summer camp in Utøya, Norway correct? The Norwegian Labour Party is also a part of the Red-Green Coalition and a member of the International Socialists. AUF, or Worker's Youth League of Norway is a part of International Union of Socialist Youth. Norway's Labour Party is led by Jens Stoltenberg who himself dabbled in what you might call radical Marxism in his youth.

Yes. Why in fact the leader of the party that was directly targeted by this madman Breivik, Stoltenberg, had his roots in the very same type of radicalism that you define as "Marxism". It is also part of the pathology, fear and paranoia that led to Breivik's terrorist act beyond his education under the infamous Fjordman. That "enemy" that you fear is in fact the same "enemy" that Breivik feared in his deranged and warped mind.

Just because Breivik hates and fears someone does not mean they are good. Radical Marxism are never good in my eyes. I always come back to the fact that they'd put most of my family on either the "dispossess" list or on the "kill" list. That, plus my inherent dislike of radicalism, renders such people my enemies.

45 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 6:56:12pm

re: #15 Killgore Trout

It's like fascist, Marxist, Socialist, Theocrat, Police State etc. It's best to use these terms accurately because real extremists do exist and it cheapens the threat to use the terms too carelessly.

I call them all Whackos™.

Any other label only seems to cause confusion, bickering and does nothing to further communication and understanding.

46 goddamnedfrank  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 6:58:34pm

re: #36 Dark_Falcon

What's that? After having Battlestars Galactica and Pegasus hand me my ass again in a AT2 (basically space combat in the Battletech universe)/BSG crossover game, I might be interested in trying something new.

Killgore's link explains it. Basically it's a Japanese form of fly fishing that uses long collapsable carbon rods and no reel. Good for small streams and lakes, great for ultralight backpacking as the heaviest rod weighs only 3.5 oz. A well off friend of mine lives on a private lake nearby that's stocked with bass but now that we're heading into the rainy season inland streams should start filling up soon. Gonna plan some trips up into the Sierra Nevada range when I get some time off.

47 Killgore Trout  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 7:00:35pm

re: #46 goddamnedfrank

Killgore's link explains it. Basically it's a Japanese form of fly fishing that uses long collapsable carbon rods and no reel. Good for small streams and lakes, great for ultralight backpacking as the heaviest rod weighs only 3.5 oz. A well off friend of mine lives on a private lake nearby that's stocked with bass but now that we're heading into the rainy season inland streams should start filling up soon. Gonna plan some trips up into the Sierra Nevada range when I get some time off.

I wonder if you could land a salmon with Tenkara

48 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 7:02:14pm

re: #47 Killgore Trout

I wonder if you could land a salmon with Tenkara

My Dear Ole' Dad fished for everything with his fly rod. Carp, bass, crappie, and, of course, trout. It was the only way he fished. Off a boat, or a pier when he got too old to wade the stream safely.

49 MittDoesNotCompute  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 7:02:38pm

re: #6 Charles

Wow. This:

... could also serve very well as a definition of racism.

Fjordman has totally stopped pretending to be anything other than a white nationalist.

Someone needs to send him a nice, crisp KKK robe and hood...

50 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 7:03:11pm

re: #49 talon_262

Someone needs to send him a nice, crisp KKK robe and hood...

I have a better idea of KKK items they could send, but I can't post that here.

51 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 7:05:04pm

re: #46 goddamnedfrank

Killgore's link explains it. Basically it's a Japanese form of fly fishing that uses long collapsable carbon rods and no reel. Good for small streams and lakes, great for ultralight backpacking as the heaviest rod weighs only 3.5 oz. A well off friend of mine lives on a private lake nearby that's stocked with bass but now that we're heading into the rainy season inland streams should start filling up soon. Gonna plan some trips up into the Sierra Nevada range when I get some time off.

Sounds nice. There are some places near where I live where I could use such a setup. Something to keep in mind for the spring, as that kind of fishing is not possible in the winter up here in Chicagoland.

52 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 7:06:08pm

re: #50 ggt

I have a better idea of KKK items they could send, but I can't post that here.

Well, the hood is pointed, so it would a simply matter to roll it up and then shove it up the malefactor's backside.

53 Gus  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 7:10:12pm

re: #44 Dark_Falcon

Just because Breivik hates and fears someone does not mean they are good. Radical Marxism are never good in my eyes. I always come back to the fact that they'd put most of my family on either the "dispossess" list or on the "kill" list. That, plus my inherent dislike of radicalism, renders such people my enemies.

That's relative to what you feel. No, they're not on your "kill list" but they were on Brevik's kill list. And he saw "radical Marxists" as he defined them just like everyone else does. And it was based on a rather easy test. To him, "radical Marxists" included multiculturalists in Norway and the Labour Party of Norway. It is a cousin of that mind-set that led to his heinous acts. It's the same thing as when people call out "Islamic extremism" and focus largely on all Muslims. In Breiviks case he saw the enemy as “Cultural Marxist radicals”. His manifesto is littered with rants against Marxists.

54 goddamnedfrank  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 7:10:55pm

re: #47 Killgore Trout

I wonder if you could land a salmon with Tenkara

It's been done for sure. I'm getting an Amago 13.6 ft @ 6:4 ratio that's supposed to be good for larger fish, and I know that Shimano makes a very stiff 8:2 rod that's designed for battle but it's kind of expensive and I haven't found a US distributor.

The great thing about Tenkara, besides the ultralight weight is the simplicity and it's fairly cheap. You can purchase a whole quiver of rods for the price some fly fishing fanatics pay for a single reel.

Another technique that's good with Tenkara rods is Pesca alla Valsesiana, very similar but you cast four flies on one line. California law limits me to three lures at a time though.

55 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 7:11:41pm

re: #15 Killgore Trout

It's like fascist, Marxist, Socialist, Theocrat, Police State etc. It's best to use these terms accurately because real extremists do exist and it cheapens the threat to use the terms too carelessly.

Of course, this is why many of us here make fun of and roll eyes at your own uses and misuses.

But hey, you were right about the tea party so, hey. e_e

56 Reverend Mother Ramallo  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 7:14:23pm

re: #35 freetoken

Well said.
:-)

57 HappyWarrior  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 7:15:02pm

Nice work and congrats on the book. Keep on fighting the good fight against these guys.

58 freetoken  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 7:15:29pm

BTW, speaking of proper terminology, I went and watched the rest of tonight's "debate" on the Focus on the Family website:
[Link: www.citizenlink.com...]

I'm not sure if any of you caught it, but at 2:23 Ron Paul lauds the ancient Israelite patriarchal system of government, as something that is better than what we have now. Start watching at around 2:22 to get the context.

Yes, really.

Ron Paul wishes for a Patriarchy.

That's what we're dealing with here, in this GOP field.

59 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 7:15:59pm

re: #24 funky chicken

Definition from Wikipedia:

How is criticizing xenophobia Stalinist? Maybe I'm just not smart enough to get it.

Not sure why your post got downdinged, but it's not "Stalinist" to criticize a conservative, fear/hate-based impluse like xenophobia.

60 HappyWarrior  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 7:16:46pm

re: #58 freetoken

BTW, speaking of proper terminology, I went and watched the rest of tonight's "debate" on the Focus on the Family website:
[Link: www.citizenlink.com...]

I'm not sure if any of you caught it, but at 2:23 Ron Paul lauds the ancient Israelite patriarchal system of government, as something that is better than what we have now. Start watching at around 2:22 to get the context.

Yes, really.

Ron Paul wishes for a Patriarchy.

That's what we're dealing with here, in this GOP field.

But he wants to legalize weed man, he's awesome! /// Seriously the people my age who like Ron Paul are nothing but fools.

61 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 7:17:35pm

Evening lizards!

I'm headed to NJ on Tuesday and get to show my kids NYC on Saturday. Next week is going to be a blast.

62 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 7:17:53pm

re: #53 Gus 802

That's relative to what you feel. No, they're not on your "kill list" but they were on Brevik's kill list. And he saw "radical Marxists" as he defined them just like everyone else does. And it was based on a rather easy test. To him, "radical Marxists" included multiculturalists in Norway and the Labour Party of Norway. It is a cousin of that mind-set that led to his heinous acts. It's the same thing as when people call out "Islamic extremism" and focus largely on all Muslims. In Breiviks case he saw the enemy as “Cultural Marxist radicals”. His manifesto is littered with rants against Marxists.

I was not talking about radical Marxists being on my "kill list"; I was talking me and other members of my family being on their kill list.

63 Gus  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 7:18:54pm

re: #62 Dark_Falcon

I was not talking about radical Marxists being on my "kill list"; I was talking me and other members of my family being on their kill list.

Wait a minute. You're saying that modern day Marxists have YOU on their kill list?

64 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 7:19:20pm

re: #58 freetoken

Ron Paul wishes for a Patriarchy.

That's what we're dealing with here, in this GOP field.

For Ron:

Dumb, stupid, worthless social conservative bigot.

/Schadenfreude

65 funky chicken  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 7:19:51pm

re: #49 talon_262

Sniffle. Why the downding? It was only partially a sarcastic question, BTW. I don't see anything that Oyvind has written as even remotely Stalinist. It's such an odd accusation.

66 MittDoesNotCompute  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 7:20:33pm

re: #65 funky chicken

Sniffle. Why the downding? It was only partially a sarcastic question, BTW. I don't see anything that Oyvind has written as even remotely Stalinist. It's such an odd accusation.

???

67 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 7:20:54pm

re: #62 Dark_Falcon

I was not talking about radical Marxists being on my "kill list"; I was talking me and other members of my family being on their kill list.

On whose "kill list"?

Con-bigot paranoia rotfl

68 funky chicken  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 7:21:49pm

re: #60 HappyWarrior

But he wants to legalize weed man, he's awesome! /// Seriously the people my age who like Ron Paul are nothing but fools.

People of any age who like Ron Paul are either fools, racists, or theocrats. I try to assume the're all fools, as it's the most charitable description.

69 funky chicken  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 7:22:43pm

re: #66 talon_262

you gave me a downding on my #24

sniffle

70 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 7:22:59pm

re: #63 Gus 802

Wait a minute. You're saying that modern day Marxists have YOU on their kill list?

You're talking to the type who thinks the world is a sandbox, and everyone is out for his toys. Birth of a Nation trained them well.

71 HappyWarrior  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 7:23:20pm

re: #68 funky chicken

People of any age who like Ron Paul are either fools, racists, or theocrats. I try to assume the're all fools, as it's the most charitable description.

Yeah, I just don't see how anyone looks at that guy and think gosh we need a guy like that in the WH. Uh no we don't. Ron Paul is a reactionary in the worst of ways.

72 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 7:23:43pm

re: #69 funky chicken

you gave me a downding on my #24

sniffle

I wonder if talon meant to upding it? Hard to say, but I suspect.

73 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 7:25:07pm

re: #52 Dark_Falcon

Well, the hood is pointed, so it would a simply matter to roll it up and then shove it up the malefactor's backside.

Why the violent attitude?

74 Gus  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 7:25:30pm

I find it rather ironic to be reading what I'm reading here tonight considering the topic. Very ironic. Newflash. Your run of the mill student Marxists aren't Stalinists out to kill you and take over the world with a massive military force.

75 MittDoesNotCompute  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 7:26:12pm

re: #69 funky chicken

you gave me a downding on my #24

sniffle

re: #72 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

I wonder if talon meant to upding it? Hard to say, but I suspect.

That was definitely an unintentional downding; I'm at work and I have several programs open across four monitors.

It's fixed now...

76 freetoken  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 7:26:28pm

re: #60 HappyWarrior

But he wants to legalize weed man, he's awesome! ///

Then God said, “I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food."

77 funky chicken  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 7:26:39pm

re: #63 Gus 802

Wait a minute. You're saying that modern day Marxists have YOU on their kill list?

A true Maoist/Stalinist regime would definitely have me on a no-no list. I'm an educated female whose parents are financially comfortable. I also have a big mouth. My husband's membership in the military would possibly insulate me for a while, but eventually my daughter and I would end up "farming for the fatherland" or something.

Pol Pot would spot us right away--smartypants females with our shelves full of scandalous books ... and we both wear glasses.

78 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 7:27:27pm

re: #76 freetoken

Then God said, “I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food."

Gosh, I love that scripture.

79 Gus  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 7:28:20pm

re: #77 funky chicken

A true Maoist/Stalinist regime would definitely have me on a no-no list. I'm an educated female whose parents are financially comfortable. I also have a big mouth. My husband's membership in the military would possibly insulate me for a while, but eventually my daughter and I would end up "farming for the fatherland" or something.

Pol Pot would spot us right away--smartypants females with our shelves full of scandalous books ... and we both wear glasses.

I think the closest there is to Stalinism is probably North Korea. And even then that's Stalin Lite.

80 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 7:28:49pm

re: #75 talon_262

re: #72 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

That was definitely an unintentional downding; I'm at work and I have several programs open across four monitors.

It's fixed now...

I thought to post that because I was on my dumbphone today and ended up downdinging a post of Lidane's at least 4 times until I got it right. Ended up also favoriting it, twice :/

Damn tiny dumbphone screens!

81 HappyWarrior  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 7:29:15pm

re: #74 Gus 802

I find it rather ironic to be reading what I'm reading here tonight considering the topic. Very ironic. Newflash. Your run of the mill student Marxists aren't Stalinists out to kill you and take over the world with a massive military force.

Your average student Marxist is naive but not dangerous IMO. And of course believing in Marx's theories doesn't make one an adherent to Stalin or even Trotsky's. Worth pointing out that some of the USSR's biggest critics were other leftists.

82 HappyWarrior  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 7:30:14pm

re: #79 Gus 802

I think the closest there is to Stalinism is probably North Korea. And even then that's Stalin Lite.

I think it's more Maoist myself having studied both Mao and Stalin. But it's definitely got Stalinist attributes too.

83 Gus  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 7:31:55pm

The main point I'm making here is that Anders Breivik though he knew "real Marxists" as well. Be careful how you tread.

84 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 7:32:07pm

re: #77 funky chicken

A true Maoist/Stalinist regime would definitely have me on a no-no list. I'm an educated female whose parents are financially comfortable. I also have a big mouth. My husband's membership in the military would possibly insulate me for a while, but eventually my daughter and I would end up "farming for the fatherland" or something.

Pol Pot would spot us right away--smartypants females with our shelves full of scandalous books ... and we both wear glasses.

Yeah, I can relate. The old-schoolers put us in the same "deadence" category as any ridiculous shariaist, scriptural literalist, or dumb american conservative socon.

ANYTHING, to give themselves unearned social benefits from the government, over all others/uber alles.

85 HappyWarrior  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 7:33:31pm

I for one am always amused by the attempt to link Communism and social liberalism together. Look at most Communist leaders. Huge prudes on things like sexuality and feminism. Somehow, I doubt Stalin would be allowing his daughter to burn her bra.

86 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 7:35:34pm

re: #74 Gus 802

I find it rather ironic to be reading what I'm reading here tonight considering the topic. Very ironic. Newflash. Your run of the mill student Marxists aren't Stalinists out to kill you and take over the world with a massive military force.

People running scared of "marxists" are the same people running scared of educated, voting negroes.

Exact
same
people.

Anyone in doubt need only check the annals of Red Channels and see just how many of the targets were targets because they advocated for race-mixin' in eeevil Hollywood.

Itself, a dogwhistle. History is our friend.

87 Gus  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 7:38:04pm

re: #85 HappyWarrior

I for one am always amused by the attempt to link Communism and social liberalism together. Look at most Communist leaders. Huge prudes on things like sexuality and feminism. Somehow, I doubt Stalin would be allowing his daughter to burn her bra.

It's an old meme created by Bubba McWhitesheet, The Hardhats, and the John Birch Society. Simple conclusions for simple minds.

88 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 7:38:09pm

re: #83 Gus 802

The main point I'm making here is that Anders Breivik though he knew "real Marxists" as well. Be careful how you tread.

What's the point, though? That disliking a category of political thought and those who follow it has potential to lead to mass homicide?

I can't stand extreme social conservatives, I think they're bad for America, and I complain about them a lot. Does this mean I'm gonna show up at some foundation with 'family' in the name with a gun? Absolutely not. And I don't think anyone here would think it necessary to warn me that I might.

89 Interesting Times  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 7:38:45pm

re: #85 HappyWarrior

I for one am always amused by the attempt to link Communism and social liberalism together. Look at most Communist leaders. Huge prudes on things like sexuality and feminism.

Yes! Remember the "sex crime" and "anti-sex leagues" from 1984? And I believe Sergey has also described how homophobia was hugely prevalent in Stalin's time, and remains a significant problem in Russia to this day.

90 funky chicken  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 7:38:49pm

TPM has a couple of funny Gingrich stories up. My favorite is the one where Gingrich says that voters don't care about his lucrative contract with Freddie Mac. Good luck with that.

91 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 7:39:00pm

re: #85 HappyWarrior

I for one am always amused by the attempt to link Communism and social liberalism together. Look at most Communist leaders. Huge prudes on things like sexuality and feminism. Somehow, I doubt Stalin would be allowing his daughter to burn her bra.

For Us Queers, it's part of the folly of having to watch these stupid conservatives come into their own, on their path of self-education.

They, the 3rd Reich, and socialism/communism/ethnic nationalism up until even the mid 80s (and beyond, some still are) were on the same page wrt The Queers. It's one reason I still thrown them all into the same socon boat.

Dumb, stupid, conservative bigots.

92 HappyWarrior  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 7:39:00pm

I have to say while I don't agree with every tenet of Marxism. There were times when Marxists were among the few groups standing up for something that was right. I believe CPUSA was one of the few political parties in this country to condemn lynching out right for example. And in the Russian empire, I just got done doing some research on how the city of Kharkiv avoided a pogrom in large part due to a militia of socialists.

93 William Barnett-Lewis  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 7:39:15pm

re: #63 Gus 802

Wait a minute. You're saying that modern day Marxists have YOU on their kill list?

No, he's saying that if radical marxists came to power in the US they would put his part of the 1% against the wall. Much like Pinochet really did to people like me and my wife's families...

94 HappyWarrior  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 7:40:07pm

re: #89 publicityStunted

Yes! Remember the "sex crime" and "anti-sex leagues" from 1984? And I believe Sergey has also described how homophobia was hugely prevalent in Stalin's time, and remains a significant problem in Russia to this day.

To my great embarrassment, I have not read 1984. Stalin may have left the seminary but he kept a lot of the seminary's attitudes about gays and women.

95 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 7:40:18pm

re: #88 SanFranciscoZionist

Does this mean I'm gonna show up at some foundation with 'family' in the name with a gun? Absolutely not. And I don't think anyone here would think it necessary to warn me that I might.

?

Who said anyone should?

96 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 7:41:23pm

re: #92 HappyWarrior

I have to say while I don't agree with every tenet of Marxism. There were times when Marxists were among the few groups standing up for something that was right. I believe CPUSA was one of the few political parties in this country to condemn lynching out right for example. And in the Russian empire, I just got done doing some research on how the city of Kharkiv avoided a pogrom in large part due to a militia of socialists.

HW, have you read Invisible Man by Ralph Ellision?

97 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 7:41:48pm

re: #95 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

?

Who said anyone should?

I don't know. Gus is making a connection between bitching about Marxists and Breivik, if I understand it correctly.

98 Gus  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 7:43:57pm

re: #97 SanFranciscoZionist

I don't know. Gus is making a connection between bitching about Marxists and Breivik, if I understand it correctly.

You would be correct. I'm doing exactly that. And it's rather odd considering this thread is connected with Fjordman by way of Breivik. Not odd but distasteful. Then again I probably should have just ignored the simplistic reference above to OWS and "Marxists."

99 HappyWarrior  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 7:44:44pm

re: #96 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

HW, have you read Invisible Man by Ralph Ellision?

I had to read the introduction for my modern American literature class this semester as a matter of fact.

100 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 7:45:26pm

re: #93 wlewisiii

if radical marxists came to power in the US

Please.

"Radical marxists" to some people like DF and KT at LGF means anyone in OWS.

You and your family are in no danger of any kind, here. The history here is of nonwhites and nonchirstians being put to the wall by white conservative protestant bigots, for whom our laws have always been quite disproportionately rigged.

101 Gus  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 7:46:49pm

re: #93 wlewisiii

No, he's saying that if radical marxists came to power in the US they would put his part of the 1% against the wall. Much like Pinochet really did to people like me and my wife's families...

So does this mean I should start being concerned about student Marxists in the USA taking over the country and do the OWS Marxists post a threat to the national security of Murica?

//

102 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 7:47:46pm

Exciting end to the UVA/FSU game right now. UVA down by 6 is driving with 1:27 left.

103 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 7:48:58pm

re: #93 wlewisiii

No, he's saying that if radical marxists came to power in the US they would put his part of the 1% against the wall. Much like Pinochet really did to people like me and my wife's families...

Of my entire extended family, only 1 person might possibly qualify as being in the top 1%. But many of us do fit the sort of people communists tended to purge: corporate executives, business owners, public safety personnel, ministers. And those that don't fit those categories would likely be on the "dispossess list". My cousin who flies commercial passenger aircraft would likely not be on any "kill list", but such Marxists would take his rigt to own his own house, and that's dispossession.

104 Gus  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 7:49:05pm

Same crap I hear about atheists. From RWNJs no less.

How ironic.

105 Gus  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 7:49:29pm

re: #103 Dark_Falcon

Of my entire extended family, only 1 person might possibly qualify as being in the top 1%. But many of us do fit the sort of people communists tended to purge: corporate executives, business owners, public safety personnel, ministers. And those that don't fit those categories would likely be on the "dispossess list". My cousin who flies commercial passenger aircraft would likely not be on any "kill list", but such Marxists would take his rigt to own his own house, and that's dispossession.

Really?

106 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 7:49:30pm

re: #99 HappyWarrior

I had to read the introduction for my modern American literature class this semester as a matter of fact.

Cool. Read the actual book. 70 years later it's very current.

In Invisible Man, Ellison nailed what "Black People" mean, symbolically, to the USA body politic, for several generations to come.

107 Gus  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 7:49:36pm

Wow.

108 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 7:50:37pm

re: #101 Gus 802

So does this mean I should start being concerned about student Marxists in the USA taking over the country and do the OWS Marxists post a threat to the national security of Murica?

//

YES!!!

WE ARE ALL INDIVIDUALS!!!!

/dumb conservatives

109 Gus  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 7:50:49pm

I should come up with some fantastic scenarios where right wingers kill my family. Nah. Maybe not. I'm not that paranoid nor desperate.

110 Obdicut  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 7:50:51pm

re: #103 Dark_Falcon

Why the fuck are we talking about what Marxists would do?

I came to this thread late, but how did we get from the abhorrent racist fascism to talking about Marxists as though they're some sort of actual threat in the US?

111 Varek Raith  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 7:50:59pm

Marxists in the US taking over?
Please, the Domionists are a far more credible threat.

112 HappyWarrior  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 7:51:08pm

re: #106 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

Cool. Read the actual book. 70 years later it's very current.

In Invisible Man, Ellison nailed what "Black People" mean, symbolically, to the USA body politic, for several generations to come.

I want to. I've Black Boy by his friend and mentor, Richard Wright, and I have to say that's one of my favorite autobiographies of all time because Wright is the ultimate outsider and I identify with that.

113 Gus  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 7:51:31pm

re: #110 Obdicut

Why the fuck are we talking about what Marxists would do?

I came to this thread late, but how did we get from the abhorrent racist fascism to talking about Marxists as though they're some sort of actual threat in the US?

You know who brought it up along with OWS. SOS.

114 Killgore Trout  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 7:52:31pm

re: #77 funky chicken

A true Maoist/Stalinist regime would definitely have me on a no-no list. I'm an educated female whose parents are financially comfortable. I also have a big mouth. My husband's membership in the military would possibly insulate me for a while, but eventually my daughter and I would end up "farming for the fatherland" or something.

Pol Pot would spot us right away--smartypants females with our shelves full of scandalous books ... and we both wear glasses.

They round up the intellectuals first, I'm safe.

115 Gus  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 7:52:38pm

I need a smoke. Might need to smoke a whole carton now.

116 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 7:52:46pm

re: #103 Scardey McClutcheypearls

Of my entire extended family, only 1 person might possibly qualify as being in the top 1%. But many of us do fit the sort of people communists tended to purge: corporate executives, business owners, public safety personnel, ministers. And those that don't fit those categories would likely be on the "dispossess list". My cousin who flies commercial passenger aircraft would likely not be on any "kill list", but such Marxists would take his rigt to own his own house, and that's dispossession.

What in blue blazes are you pointing and crying about, now?

/rotfl

117 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 7:52:59pm

re: #100 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

1. Don't put words in my mouth. I've made it very clear that I don't think everyone in OWS is a radical.

2. I'm not Protestant, my religious views are Catholic.

3. You're a loathsome pest, whom LGF would be better without.

118 Obdicut  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 7:53:21pm

re: #113 Gus 802

You know who brought it up along with OWS. SOS.

The biggest threat of Marxism in the US is the GOP. The only possible scenario where Marxists gain power in the US is if the divide between the ultrawealthy and the rest of society continues to grow at a huge rate.

As long as we actually do something to correct the inequities developing in our society, we don't need to worry our pretty little head about Marxists.

119 funky chicken  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 7:53:55pm

re: #100 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

Please.

"Radical marxists" to some people like DF and KT at LGF means anyone in OWS.

You and your family are in no danger of any kind, here. The history here is of nonwhites and nonchirstians being put to the wall by white conservative protestant bigots, for whom our laws have always been quite disproportionately rigged.

Strongly disagree with the highlighted statement.

120 Obdicut  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 7:54:18pm

re: #117 Dark_Falcon

re: #116 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

Oh for fuck's sake. Stop the slap fight.

121 ProGunLiberal  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 7:54:22pm

re: #111 Varek Raith

Fortunately, demographics are against them.

122 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 7:55:17pm

re: #110 Obdicut

Why the fuck are we talking about what Marxists would do?

I came to this thread late, but how did we get from the abhorrent racist fascism to talking about Marxists as though they're some sort of actual threat in the US?

I don't know how we got this far off track. It should have distracted from the point that Edward S. May is a fascist. I did not intend for things to get off topic like that.

123 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 7:55:26pm

re: #105 Gus 802

Really?

Yes, crappy things have happened to people the government took against in various soi-disant communist nations.

This does not mean that 'European-style socialism' as they like to call it, forms a threat to freedom, or that we're in any danger that the Maoist International Movement is going to gain any power in the U.S., but it also doesn't mean I have to be nice to MIM on the occasions when I am unfortunate enough to be in the presence of one of their little drones.

124 HappyWarrior  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 7:55:27pm

re: #121 ProLifeLiberal

Fortunately, demographics are against them.

Well and we have the beer. You can take our lives but you'll never take away ourrrrrrr flaasssssssssssssks.!

125 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 7:55:38pm

UVA scored, up by one...can FSU get a FG within 39 seconds?

126 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 7:56:05pm

re: #120 Obdicut

re: #116 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

Oh for fuck's sake. Stop the slap fight.

Fine by me. I'll stop.

127 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 7:56:18pm

re: #114 Killgore Trout

They round up the intellectuals first, I'm safe.

Landowner. You and your frogs.

128 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 7:56:41pm

re: #123 SanFranciscoZionist

Yes, crappy things have happened to people the government took against in various soi-disant communist nations.

This does not mean that 'European-style socialism' as they like to call it, forms a threat to freedom, or that we're in any danger that the Maoist International Movement is going to gain any power in the U.S., but it also doesn't mean I have to be nice to MIM on the occasions when I am unfortunate enough to be in the presence of one of their little drones.

Quoted For Truth. Thank You, SFZ.

129 Killgore Trout  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 7:56:48pm

re: #117 Dark_Falcon

Stiff upper lip, sir.

130 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 7:57:16pm

re: #117 Dark_Falcon

1. Don't put words in my mouth. I've made it very clear that I don't think everyone in OWS is a radical.

2. I'm not Protestant, my religious views are Catholic.

3. You're a loathsome pest, whom LGF would be better without.

Here here!

131 Obdicut  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 7:57:30pm

re: #123 SanFranciscoZionist

And here in the US, outright communists were sometimes deluded about what was going on in the USSR, very occasionally defenders even though they knew it, but most often were a much better sort, ideologically, than Stalinists and the ruling elite in the USSR. Many US communists were labor leaders fighting absolutely appalling conditions. That they achieved a lot of success in fighting back against corporate greed and cruelty actually helped forestall any possibility of Communist revolution here. Which counts as irony.

132 Killgore Trout  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 7:58:42pm

re: #127 SanFranciscoZionist

Landowner. You and your frogs.

It's a collective. My name is on the lease but the cats own the inside, frogs own the outside. I'm just the janitor and groundskeeper.

133 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 7:58:50pm

re: #131 Obdicut

And here in the US, outright communists were sometimes deluded about what was going on in the USSR, very occasionally defenders even though they knew it, but most often were a much better sort, ideologically, than Stalinists and the ruling elite in the USSR. Many US communists were labor leaders fighting absolutely appalling conditions. That they achieved a lot of success in fighting back against corporate greed and cruelty actually helped forestall any possibility of Communist revolution here. Which counts as irony.

The United States--weirdly functional at times.

134 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 7:59:02pm

re: #129 Killgore Trout

Stiff upper lip, sir.

Indeed. Please forgive my lack of decorum. But OCSP sometimes says something that just trips my trigger and I post something like that.

135 HappyWarrior  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 7:59:57pm

re: #131 Obdicut

And here in the US, outright communists were sometimes deluded about what was going on in the USSR, very occasionally defenders even though they knew it, but most often were a much better sort, ideologically, than Stalinists and the ruling elite in the USSR. Many US communists were labor leaders fighting absolutely appalling conditions. That they achieved a lot of success in fighting back against corporate greed and cruelty actually helped forestall any possibility of Communist revolution here. Which counts as irony.

I believe many historians have credited New Deal economic style reforms with preventing revolution. Hell, the best gift to Communist revolutionaries would have been to have continued the status quo of not allowing unionization, fair work hours, safe conditions, etc. And that is something die hard laisess faire adherents will never get.

136 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 8:00:35pm

re: #112 HappyWarrior

Yeah you should when you get the chance! It's taken a few generations but Wright, Ellison, the Harlem Rennaissance writers and later, they're starting to become part of the canon of "Great AmericanLiterature", fwetw. But Invisible Man could have been written yesterday, afaic.

137 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 8:00:48pm

re: #132 Killgore Trout

It's a collective. My name is on the lease but the cats own the inside, frogs own the outside. I'm just the janitor and groundskeeper.

I'd raise the ante by calling you an exploiter and a rich peasant, but we seem to actually be having a fight of some kind. So maybe I should knock it off.

138 ProGunLiberal  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 8:00:48pm

re: #124 HappyWarrior

That is true. Even though I don't drink.

Right now, the goal of them Democrats should be to stop Republicans from causing more damage to the US. This can be done 2 ways.

First is to accelerate the demographic shift by bringing in new immigrants to areas with falling (in relative terms) population.

Second, is to play by the same rules. If the Republicans want anything, hold it hostage. If they want greater gun rights, demand Gay Marriage.

The Democrats (including Obama) must stop playing nice.

139 funky chicken  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 8:00:58pm

re: #114 Killgore Trout

They round up the intellectuals first, I'm safe.

I've only got a Master's that I haven't used since I married a military guy. So I'd be safe until I opened my big fat mouth and said something unflattering about the ruling class. They'd probably get my daughter first. She's utterly fearless.

And that goes for Stalinist/Maoist and Fundamentalist Islamist or pretty much any other flavor of extremist totalitarian government. Fundamentalists of all stripes seem pretty hostile to smart, opinionated women.

I'm not sure I understand the compulsion to pretend that there aren't extremist Marxist/Stalinist folks still around. Some of them may even go to OWS rallies, just like some John Birchers and Stormfronters go to Tea Party rallies.

140 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 8:01:57pm

UVA stops them on 4th down but wait...facemask penalty...FSU in FG range.

141 Varek Raith  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 8:02:20pm

re: #139 funky chicken

I've only got a Master's that I haven't used since I married a military guy. So I'd be safe until I opened my big fat mouth and said something unflattering about the ruling class. They'd probably get my daughter first. She's utterly fearless.

And that goes for Stalinist/Maoist and Fundamentalist Islamist or pretty much any other flavor of extremist totalitarian government. Fundamentalists of all stripes seem pretty hostile to smart, opinionated women.

I'm not sure I understand the compulsion to pretend that there aren't extremist Marxist/Stalinist folks still around. Some of them may even go to OWS rallies, just like some John Birchers and Stormfronters go to Tea Party rallies.

Thing is, the JBS has influence in the GOP itself.

142 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 8:02:47pm

re: #117 Dumb_conservative_bigot

1. Don't put words in my mouth. I've made it very clear that I don't think everyone in OWS is a radical.

2. I'm not Protestant, my religious views are Catholic.

3. You're a loathsome pest, whom LGF I personally would be better without.

.

/Schadenfreude

143 HappyWarrior  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 8:03:40pm

re: #136 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

Yeah you should when you get the chance! It's taken a few generations but Wright, Ellison, the Harlem Rennaissance writers and later, they're starting to become part of the canon of "Great AmericanLiterature", fwetw. But Invisible Man could have been written yesterday, afaic.

Yeah going to put it on my list. I think Ellison's concept of race as invisibility is brilliant.

144 Obdicut  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 8:03:40pm

And though never an outright communist, this guy is one of my heroes.

A. Philip Randolph, head of the Porters Union, the guy most responsible for the integration of the US Army, the March on Washington, a fervent socialist.

145 Gus  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 8:03:47pm

re: #142 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

.

/Schadenfreude

Check your Twitter messages. Got a funny one for ya.

146 Varek Raith  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 8:03:53pm

re: #142 I_Can_Change_Nics_Too:P

You're being annoying again.
;)

147 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 8:04:04pm

re: #139 funky chicken

I've only got a Master's that I haven't used since I married a military guy. So I'd be safe until I opened my big fat mouth and said something unflattering about the ruling class. They'd probably get my daughter first. She's utterly fearless.

And that goes for Stalinist/Maoist and Fundamentalist Islamist or pretty much any other flavor of extremist totalitarian government. Fundamentalists of all stripes seem pretty hostile to smart, opinionated women.

I'm not sure I understand the compulsion to pretend that there aren't extremist Marxist/Stalinist folks still around. Some of them may even go to OWS rallies, just like some John Birchers and Stormfronters go to Tea Party rallies.

They're around, merely very, very ineffective. While the JBS seems to be fighting their way back into relevence among a certain sort of deranged Republican, their bete noire, the hardcore American Communist, just churns out piles of bad writing and waits for a revolution that's a hundred years overdue to show up.

148 Obdicut  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 8:04:27pm

re: #142 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

Changing people's logins to mock them is stupid, and makes you look like a petty jerk.

149 Gus  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 8:05:04pm
150 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 8:05:15pm

re: #147 SanFranciscoZionist

They're around, merely very, very ineffective. While the JBS seems to be fighting their way back into relevence among a certain sort of deranged Republican, their bete noire, the hardcore American Communist, just churns out piles of bad writing and waits for a revolution that's a hundred years overdue to show up.

Of course, that's in the States. Something like North Korea is tragic. Marx would agree.

151 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 8:05:31pm

re: #134 Dark_Falcon

Indeed. Please forgive my lack of decorum. But OCSP sometimes says something that just trips my trigger and I post something like that.

Emotional baby. Don't blame me for your own reactions.

So much for all that legencary conservative personal responsibility. e_e

152 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 8:05:32pm

re: #131 Obdicut

And here in the US, outright communists were sometimes deluded about what was going on in the USSR, very occasionally defenders even though they knew it, but most often were a much better sort, ideologically, than Stalinists and the ruling elite in the USSR. Many US communists were labor leaders fighting absolutely appalling conditions. That they achieved a lot of success in fighting back against corporate greed and cruelty actually helped forestall any possibility of Communist revolution here. Which counts as irony.

Given their use of "shaming sessions" and their dogmatic refusal to see Stalin as he was, said American communists were still part of a very evil historical force. That they did some good should not be doubted, but I content it was outweighed by the harm they inflicted by their support of the USSR. That does not, however mean that most of them were evil. Only those who actually betrayed the United States merit that description (though some may well have been wicked in non-political ways, but I don't know enough about that to comment). So Dalton Trumbo and Paul Robeson were not evil men, but Alger Hiss and Julius Rosenberg were indeed evil.

153 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 8:06:39pm

Holy cow! FSU gets in FG range with a catch and the clock runs out. Bad play calling.

It may be called an incomplete and FSU can try a FG to win.

Excitement in Tallahassee. Great game.

154 funky chicken  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 8:06:59pm

re: #110 Obdicut

Why the fuck are we talking about what Marxists would do?

I came to this thread late, but how did we get from the abhorrent racist fascism to talking about Marxists as though they're some sort of actual threat in the US?

Well, GOV called Oyvind a Stalinist, which is an extremist totalitarian Marxist. I remain puzzled by their choice of epithets, however.

Unfortunately I'm going to have to spend Thanksgiving ducking any and all political discussions with my dad, who thinks John Stewart is a "far-left socialist," and who has told me that a feminist like me should fear creeping Sharia here in the US, among other absurdities. He's a good guy, but he's fallen in with a bad crowd lately.

155 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 8:07:17pm

re: #117 Dark_Falcon

1. Don't put words in my mouth. I've made it very clear that I don't think everyone in OWS is a radical.

2. I'm not Protestant, my religious views are Catholic.

3. You're a loathsome pest, whom LGF would be better without.

One man's pest is another mans kindred spirit who knows a fuckload about music :d

156 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 8:07:25pm

re: #145 Gus 802

smh, thanks!

157 Obdicut  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 8:07:43pm

re: #152 Dark_Falcon

Given their use of "shaming sessions" and their dogmatic refusal to see Stalin as he was, said American communists were still part of a very evil historical force.

You're treating them as though they were a monolithic block. This is wrong.

You get accommodation at work, right? The reason you get that is based on the back of labor rights won for you, in part, by US communists.

Not all US communists supported the USSR, and many of those who did supported the USSR in the time period before and after WWII, when, you know, they were our allies.

158 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 8:07:53pm

I think I need help.

I have over 100 acronyms in my Dodd-Frank Database.

Why?

159 McSpiff  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 8:08:17pm

re: #148 Obdicut

Changing people's logins to mock them is stupid, and makes you look like a petty jerk.

QFT. Some people don't even bother trying to hide their bigotry anymore.

160 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 8:08:17pm

re: #154 funky chicken

Well, GOV called Oyvind a Stalinist, which is an extremist totalitarian Marxist. I remain puzzled by their choice of epithets, however.

Unfortunately I'm going to have to spend Thanksgiving ducking any and all political discussions with my dad, who thinks John Stewart is a "far-left socialist," and who has told me that a feminist like me should fear creeping Sharia here in the US, among other absurdities. He's a good guy, but he's fallen in with a bad crowd lately.

There should be support groups. Adult Children of Fox News Watchers.

161 Varek Raith  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 8:08:23pm

re: #158 ggt

I think I need help.

I have over 100 acronyms in my Dodd-Frank Database.

Why?

Therapy.
Now.

162 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 8:08:29pm

re: #52 Dark_Falcon

Well, the hood is pointed, so it would a simply matter to roll it up and then shove it up the malefactor's backside.

Well, I will not advocate such behavior . . .

163 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 8:08:39pm

re: #148 Obdicut

But it's fine with me if I look like a petty jerk in your eyes, obdicut. At this point, this should not come as a suprise to you.

164 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 8:09:25pm

re: #51 Dark_Falcon

Sounds nice. There are some places near where I live where I could use such a setup. Something to keep in mind for the spring, as that kind of fishing is not possible in the winter up here in Chicagoland.

If it can be fished, my Dear Ole' Dad would have found a way to do it with a fly rod.

It was his passion.

165 Obdicut  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 8:09:32pm

re: #163 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

But it's fine with me if I look like a petty jerk in your eyes, obdicut. At this point, this should not come as a suprise to you.

What do you mean 'at this point'? You obviously care a lot about what people think, otherwise you wouldn't post so much. Do you mean me in particular?

166 Varek Raith  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 8:09:45pm

re: #163 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

But it's fine with me if I look like a petty jerk in your eyes, obdicut. At this point, this should not come as a suprise to you.

As far as I'm concerned you're all a bunch of rambling netbots.
Or figments of my imagination.

167 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 8:10:01pm

re: #159 McSpiff

QFT. Some people don't even bother trying to hide their bigotry anymore.

And it happens every time they show up. Some people can't control themselves.

168 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 8:10:46pm

re: #167 NJDhockeyfan

And it happens every time they show up. Some people can't control themselves.

jack jack squirt squirt

169 Obdicut  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 8:10:47pm

re: #166 Varek Raith

As far as I'm concerned you're all a bunch of rambling netbots.
Or figments of my imagination.

What happens if you're a solipsist but don't have access to the majority of your own thought? Doesn't that mean you aren't you, but only a very small subset of you?

Image: fantastico-color3.jpg

170 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 8:10:52pm

re: #166 Varek Raith

As far as I'm concerned you're all a bunch of rambling netbots.
Or figments of my imagination.

If I'm a figment of your imagination, can I have my back get better, and get this job I'm interviewing for on Monday?

171 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 8:11:03pm

re: #58 freetoken

BTW, speaking of proper terminology, I went and watched the rest of tonight's "debate" on the Focus on the Family website:
[Link: www.citizenlink.com...]

I'm not sure if any of you caught it, but at 2:23 Ron Paul lauds the ancient Israelite patriarchal system of government, as something that is better than what we have now. Start watching at around 2:22 to get the context.

Yes, really.

Ron Paul wishes for a Patriarchy.

That's what we're dealing with here, in this GOP field.

Well, of course he does. His goal is to Restore the Republic to some mythical past that never existed. There is no version in anyone's twisted mind that isn't patriarchal.

172 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 8:11:41pm

FSU gets to kick a FG to win.

173 HappyWarrior  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 8:12:04pm

re: #172 NJDhockeyfan

FSU gets to kick a FG to win.

Sucks for the Cavs.

174 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 8:12:08pm

re: #63 Gus 802

Wait a minute. You're saying that modern day Marxists have YOU on their kill list?

If they knew about me, I'm sure I'd be on their list.

175 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 8:12:17pm

re: #157 Obdicut

You're treating them as though they were a monolithic block. This is wrong.

You get accommodation at work, right? The reason you get that is based on the back of labor rights won for you, in part, by US communists.

Not all US communists supported the USSR, and many of those who did supported the USSR in the time period before and after WWII, when, you know, they were our allies.

They were only our allies during the war. After World War II, Stalin decided we were the USSR's "main enemy" (actually, he had decided that before the war had ended but he concealed that decision for some time). Those who had supported the USSR were in my opinion obligated by its turn towards hostility towards the USA to turn against it. Some did, but others parroted the line from Moscow that the US was responsible for the crises that followed.

176 Gus  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 8:12:24pm

What an embarrassing thread this has turned out to be.

177 funky chicken  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 8:13:04pm

re: #131 Obdicut

And here in the US, outright communists were sometimes deluded about what was going on in the USSR, very occasionally defenders even though they knew it, but most often were a much better sort, ideologically, than Stalinists and the ruling elite in the USSR. Many US communists were labor leaders fighting absolutely appalling conditions. That they achieved a lot of success in fighting back against corporate greed and cruelty actually helped forestall any possibility of Communist revolution here. Which counts as irony.

Upton Sinclair was a sincere, big S Socialist. He wrote The Jungle
as a political tract, but didn't succeed in drafting many people to his larger cause. We can all thank him for so shocking Theodore Roosevelt and his advisors that they created the FDA.

I never read

The Jungle

except for the one famous chapter.

178 Varek Raith  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 8:13:07pm

re: #176 Gus 802

What an embarrassing thread this has turned out to be.

I'm just chilling.
I'm so tired of arguing about this.
:/

179 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 8:13:09pm

UVA called for causing a False start...5 yards closer.

180 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 8:13:11pm

re: #144 Obdicut

And though never an outright communist, this guy is one of my heroes.

A. Philip Randolph, head of the Porters Union, the guy most responsible for the integration of the US Army, the March on Washington, a fervent socialist.

Correction: International Brotherhood of Sleeping Car Porters Union.

Internet, before there was even computers.

Blk ppl have always knows how to talk to each otherz, with or whitout the whites, nation-wide. You cannot explain that.

181 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 8:13:24pm

re: #68 funky chicken

People of any age who like Ron Paul are either fools, racists, or theocrats. I try to assume the're all fools, as it's the most charitable description.

Frankly, I think most are just confused and utterly unsure of what the world is anymore. Uncle Ron seems to have a clue, so they go with him.

This Brave New World is certainly perplexing, if nothing else.

182 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 8:13:28pm

And he missed it!

UVA wins!

183 Varek Raith  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 8:13:45pm

re: #182 NJDhockeyfan

And he missed it!

UVA wins!

Lol.

184 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 8:14:00pm

re: #165 Obdicut

What do you mean 'at this point'? You obviously care a lot about what people think, otherwise you wouldn't post so much. Do you mean me in particular?

It was in response to your post, of course I mean you in particular.

185 McSpiff  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 8:14:08pm

re: #176 Gus 802

What an embarrassing thread this has turned out to be.

Don't worry, its just the internet. where everything's made up and the points don't matter

186 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 8:14:34pm

re: #74 Gus 802

I find it rather ironic to be reading what I'm reading here tonight considering the topic. Very ironic. Newflash. Your run of the mill student Marxists aren't Stalinists out to kill you and take over the world with a massive military force.

The run of the mill student has no clue what such words invoke in older people. they have no frame of reference and really don't read enough, IMHO, to really have any clue.

187 Gus  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 8:14:37pm

re: #178 Varek Raith

I'm just chilling.
I'm so tired of arguing about this.
:/

It's cool. I'm half way through to 100. I learned a long time ago that you can't like everybody. Same thing applies here.

188 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 8:15:16pm

re: #166 Varek Raith

As far as I'm concerned you're all a bunch of rambling netbots.
Or figments of my imagination.

Huh. Well, that could also be true; never thought of it that way.

189 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 8:15:21pm

re: #79 Gus 802

I think the closest there is to Stalinism is probably North Korea. And even then that's Stalin Lite.

How would we know?--they don't let us in.

190 Varek Raith  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 8:15:30pm

re: #187 Gus 802

It's cool. I'm half way through to 100. I learned a long time ago that you can't like everybody. Same thing applies here.

I don't like anything or anyone.
Immunity FTW!
/

191 Obdicut  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 8:15:34pm

re: #175 Dark_Falcon

But not all US communists remained supportive of the USSR, whereas you're claiming they did. And you're blaming all US communists for what happened post-1945. You might as well judge all the citizens of the US negatively for actions pre-Civil Rights.

Many US communists worked their whole life long in order to bring better lives for their fellow men. Their judgement may have been flawed, but many shed blood, sweat and tears for their fellow citizens. Ahd they were fighting some evil, evil shit themselves, like the Triangle Shirtwaist Factory owners, like the Lowell Mill owners. And you know what? The communists are now a shadow, a barely-recognizable force in US politics, whereas guys like the head of Massey Energy are still creating conditions that kill workers and getting away with it.

192 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 8:15:48pm

If I was younger and single I'd drive into town and hit the bars around the university. The students know how to party in Charlottesville.

193 Varek Raith  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 8:16:23pm

re: #192 NJDhockeyfan

If I was younger and single I'd drive into town and hit the bars around the university. The students know how to party in Charlottesville.

Nice place.

194 Gus  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 8:16:44pm

I haven't seen a ding war like that in years!

195 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 8:17:00pm

re: #153 NJDhockeyfan

Whew.

196 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 8:17:18pm

re: #187 Gus 802

It's cool. I'm half way through to 100. I learned a long time ago that you can't like everybody. Same thing applies here.

Agreed. You can't like everybody, and not everybody is going to like u.

/the way the cookie crumbles

197 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 8:17:34pm

re: #94 HappyWarrior

To my great embarrassment, I have not read 1984. Stalin may have left the seminary but he kept a lot of the seminary's attitudes about gays and women.

YOU MUST READ IT.

198 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 8:17:45pm

re: #193 Varek Raith

Nice place.

UVA has a chance to win the ACC championship. Who woulda thought that was possible?

199 funky chicken  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 8:17:52pm

re: #177 funky chicken

Jeez. I need to go get my eyeglasses. Pol Pot's dead, after all.

200 HappyWarrior  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 8:17:57pm

re: #197 ggt

YOU MUST READ IT.

I know, I know.

201 Obdicut  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 8:17:58pm

re: #184 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

It was in response to your post, of course I mean you in particular.

Really? Oh, is this your whole thing where I'm just trying to win fights on the internet, or something?

202 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 8:18:02pm

re: #171 ggt

Well, of course he does. His goal is to Restore the Republic to some mythical past that never existed. There is no version in anyone's twisted mind that isn't patriarchal.

The 'ancient Israelite patriarchal system of government' isn't a system of government. The Patriarchs themselves controlled small tribal family groups. Under the Judges, you essentially have the same kind of tribal anarchy, loosely controlled by respect for or allegiance to an assortment of religious leaders, warlords and community organizers. It's almost exactly what you see in places like rural Pakistan today, minus the AKs.

Then they go over to a monarchy.

What about this could possibly be used as a model for a modern nation-state?

203 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 8:18:04pm

re: #177 funky chicken

Upton Sinclair was a sincere, big S Socialist. He wrote

as a political tract, but didn't succeed in drafting many people to his larger cause. We can all thank him for so shocking Theodore Roosevelt and his advisors that they created the FDA.

I never read

except for the one famous chapter.

I'm not sure it was a shock that moved TR to act. The Jungle was also very much intended as an anti-corporate book, but TR was able to focus attention onto the food safety aspects of it and thus cast the anti-corporate aspects into shadow. A very nice piece of political deflection by TR, that still ended up producing a useful reform.

I will, however, that Upton Sinclair was not the kind of radical I was talking about. He left-wing, to be sure, but he would never have accepted the idea of "liquidating class enemies".

204 Obdicut  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 8:18:14pm

re: #194 Gus 802

I haven't seen a ding war like that in years!

I bought stock in dingers.

205 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 8:18:26pm

re: #94 HappyWarrior

To my great embarrassment, I have not read 1984. Stalin may have left the seminary but he kept a lot of the seminary's attitudes about gays and women.

Seriously, it will take you one evening, or less, to get thru it.

Other dystopias--

Brave New World
Looking Backward

206 Gus  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 8:18:29pm

re: #196 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

Agreed. You can't like everybody, and not everybody is going to like u.

/the way the cookie crumbles

Yep. So why fake it.

207 Obdicut  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 8:18:52pm

re: #203 Dark_Falcon

I'm not sure it was a shock that moved TR to act. The Jungle was also very much intended as an anti-corporate book, but TR was able to focus attention onto the food safety aspects of it and thus cast the anti-corporate aspects into shadow. A very nice piece of political deflection by TR, that still ended up producing a useful reform.

Um, TR also spent a hell of lot of his time busting up trusts and monopolies, and otherwise reforming corporations. We could use him again.

208 Gus  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 8:19:35pm

Plus it's all part of the plan. Like I mentioned weeks ago. It's the OWS circular firing squad. We already lost La Zardo today.

209 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 8:19:58pm

re: #111 Varek Raith

Marxists in the US taking over?
Please, the Domionists are a far more credible threat.

No, it's just a reminder that everyone can be suspect to the Whackos™

210 Varek Raith  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 8:19:59pm

re: #208 Gus 802

Plus it's all part of the plan. Like I mentioned weeks ago. It's the OWS circular firing squad. We already lost La Zardo today.

Wait, what?
Dammit.

211 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 8:20:04pm

re: #208 Gus 802

Plus it's all part of the plan. Like I mentioned weeks ago. It's the OWS circular firing squad. We already lost La Zardo today.

He's gone?

212 Obdicut  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 8:20:16pm

re: #208 Gus 802

He's just on a timeout, now. Hopefully he'll return from that cold and bitter land.

213 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 8:20:36pm

re: #175 Dark_Falcon

Those who had supported the USSR were...

Name them?

in my opinion obligated by its turn towards hostility towards the USA to turn against it. Some did, but others parroted the line from Moscow that the US was responsible for the crises that followed.

Who, exactly. Name them.

214 Gus  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 8:21:01pm

re: #212 Obdicut

He's just on a timeout, now. Hopefully he'll return from that cold and bitter land.

We'll see. I was Tweeting him before and he's a bit off still. Might not come back.

215 Obdicut  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 8:21:51pm

re: #214 Gus 802

Well, that's entirely his choice and I can respect him for it, even if I don't understand why saying one particular word is so gosh-durn important to him.

216 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 8:22:06pm

re: #214 Gus 802

We'll see. I was Tweeting him before and he's a bit off still. Might not come back.

Tell him to get his ass back here. He doesn't need to like cops, he just needs to control his temper on the few things up with which Charles will not put.

217 goddamnedfrank  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 8:22:38pm

re: #214 Gus 802

We'll see. I was Tweeting him before and he's a bit off still. Might not come back.

Introduce him to Tenkara fishing, it's fucking awesome!

218 ProGunLiberal  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 8:22:38pm

OU's team seems to have been replaced by a bunch of High School junior varsity kids.

219 Varek Raith  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 8:22:43pm

re: #216 SanFranciscoZionist

Tell him to get his ass back here. He doesn't need to like cops, he just needs to control his temper on the few things up with which Charles will not put.

See, there's that scary teacher thing again.

220 Gus  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 8:22:57pm

re: #216 SanFranciscoZionist

Tell him to get his ass back here. He doesn't need to like cops, he just needs to control his temper on the few things up with which Charles will not put.

I tried that. We'll see tomorrow.

221 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 8:23:30pm

re: #203 Dark_Falcon

He [Upton Sinclair] left-wing, to be sure, but he would never have accepted the idea of "liquidating class enemies".

Who accepted the idea of "liquidating class enemies"?

Who does, now, besides the cops like at UC Davis, acting on behalf of the people conservatives like you admire, and are desperate to impress?

/lmao

222 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 8:23:39pm

re: #219 Varek Raith

See, there's that scary teacher thing again.

The construction is usually credited to Churchill. It makes me smile.

223 HappyWarrior  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 8:23:55pm

Well it's nice to have the benefit of being in 2011. I have no idea what I'd be if I lived in 1911. Probably not a moderate liberal. We're products of our times and surroundings after all.

224 William Barnett-Lewis  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 8:24:43pm

re: #197 ggt

re: #94 HappyWarrior

To my great embarrassment, I have not read 1984. Stalin may have left the seminary but he kept a lot of the seminary's attitudes about gays and women.

YOU MUST READ IT.

Yes, read it but I'd argue that reading "Brave New World" is a far better prescriptive for the way our freedoms will die. "Animal Farm" is good for any young'n who likes the fantasy of revolution too.

225 funky chicken  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 8:24:58pm
What is Marxism? How can I learn more?
Marxism is the system of ideas and practice developed by the great German scholar and revolutionary Karl Marx and his collaborator Friedrich Engels. Working in the late 1800s, a period of revolutionary social and scientific change, Marx and Engels brought together classical German philosophy, English political economy and French socialism to produce an integrated view of society. Marxism has served as a guide for working class and national liberation movements ever since.

Marxist ideas have been elaborated and modernized by other great revolutionaries such as Vladimir Lenin, Ho Chi Minh and Fidel Castro. The validity of Marxism has been repeatedly demonstrated by its role in guiding successful social struggles and revolutions in every part of the world. Marxism is not a rigid dogma, but relies on the scientific method to analyze and change society, so it is constantly developing and adapting as society itself changes.

Some of the best introductions to Marxism are the writings of Marx, Engels and Lenin themselves. The Communist Manifesto, by Marx and Engels, should be on everyone's must-read list. Lenin's encyclopedia article "Karl Marx," written in 1914, is an excellent brief description of Marx's life and work. An even shorter article is "The Three Sources and Three Component Parts of Marxism." Marx's excellent histories, such as The Civil War in France, combine brilliant historical analysis with a deep sympathy for people's struggles. Engel's Socialism: Utopian and Scientific is a very readable explanation of Marxist socialist theory.

Castro? No gracias.

We call for nationalization of the banks, railroads, and industries like steel and auto.

Like in Venezuela? Again, no gracias.

[Link: www.cpusa.org...]

226 Varek Raith  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 8:25:25pm

re: #224 wlewisiii

Yes, read it but I'd argue that reading "Brave New World" is a far better prescriptive for the way our freedoms will die. "Animal Farm" is good for any young'n who likes the fantasy of revolution too.

And after all that, the Fallout world begins.
/...?

227 McSpiff  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 8:26:22pm

re: #221 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

Who accepted the idea of "liquidating class enemies"?

Who does, now, besides the cops like at UC Davis, acting on behalf of the people conservatives like you admire, and are desperate to impress?

/lmao

Oh OCIHACOSP, why I do I even bother logging in? You already know exactly what everyone thinks about everything! I could save so much time if I just let you explain exactly how I think and feel to everyone at LGF! So much more efficient.

228 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 8:26:26pm

re: #223 HappyWarrior

Well it's nice to have the benefit of being in 2011. I have no idea what I'd be if I lived in 1911. Probably not a moderate liberal. We're products of our times and surroundings after all.

Life was more simple back then. No cellphones, TV, cars, fast food restaurants...I could live like that.

229 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 8:26:43pm

re: #222 SanFranciscoZionist

The construction is usually credited to Churchill. It makes me smile.

Churchill, Wilde, and Twain. Three men who have practically everything witty ever said attributed to them.

230 HappyWarrior  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 8:26:47pm

re: #224 wlewisiii

Yes, read it but I'd argue that reading "Brave New World" is a far better prescriptive for the way our freedoms will die. "Animal Farm" is good for any young'n who likes the fantasy of revolution too.

Yeah, I've been recommended that before. The character of Snowball in AF is why I briefly thought Trotsky was ok. Not a fan anymore. The one Communist I guess I do admire is Dubcek and to another extent Gorbachev. Guys like Deng Xiaopeng and Zhou Enlai in China fascinate me but I am not an admirer of either man.

231 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 8:27:37pm

re: #214 Gus 802

We'll see. I was Tweeting him before and he's a bit off still. Might not come back.

Tweet him pls for me and let him know some idiot, just -following-orders cops just aren't worth getting timed out over.

Make his own blog and call cops "pigs" all he wants. Here, do it Charles's way, and have fun with the rest of the Fun Bunch.

/the way the ball bounces

232 HappyWarrior  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 8:27:47pm

re: #228 NJDhockeyfan

Life was more simple back then. No cellphones, TV, cars, fast food restaurants...I could live like that.

I'd be fucked. Guy with my handwriting isn't going too far in college with no computers but it was a simpler time for sure.

233 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 8:27:47pm

re: #228 NJDhockeyfan

Life was more simple back then. No cellphones, TV, cars, fast food restaurants...I could live like that.

The Polio and TB were fantastic!

234 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 8:27:50pm

re: #224 wlewisiii

235 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 8:27:56pm

re: #185 McSpiff

Don't worry, its just the internet. where everything's made up and the points don't matter

Very much like the securitization/options/futures/bundles/CDO/SUV/CDPC/REMIC/LPFC/SIV/REPOS/ad nauseum/theoretical collateral products that aren't.

236 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 8:28:04pm

re: #191 Obdicut

But not all US communists remained supportive of the USSR, whereas you're claiming they did. And you're blaming all US communists for what happened post-1945. You might as well judge all the citizens of the US negatively for actions pre-Civil Rights.

Many US communists worked their whole life long in order to bring better lives for their fellow men. Their judgement may have been flawed, but many shed blood, sweat and tears for their fellow citizens. And they were fighting some evil, evil shit themselves, like the Triangle Shirtwaist Factory owners, like the Lowell Mill owners. And you know what? The communists are now a shadow, a barely-recognizable force in US politics, whereas guys like the head of Massey Energy are still creating conditions that kill workers and getting away with it.

re: #175 Dark_Falcon

They were only our allies during the war. After World War II, Stalin decided we were the USSR's "main enemy" (actually, he had decided that before the war had ended but he concealed that decision for some time). Those who had supported the USSR were in my opinion obligated by its turn towards hostility towards the USA to turn against it. Some did, but others parroted the line from Moscow that the US was responsible for the crises that followed.

I had tried to use the bolded portion to make clear that I did not, in fact, think that way. I seem to have been unclear, so I would like to amend my statement to read (in place for the bolded section): "Some American communists did indeed turn against the USSR as its hostile intent became clear,".

237 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 8:28:27pm

not cops, think bigger

238 funky chicken  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 8:28:39pm

re: #203 Dark_Falcon

Perhaps disgust would be a better word. I read that TR lost more men to food poisoning caused by consumption of bad canned meat than from enemy action in the San Juan Hill campaign. The Jungle hit at the right time, and the issue was personal for him.

239 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 8:28:45pm

re: #227 McSpiff

e_e

240 McSpiff  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 8:29:23pm

re: #235 ggt

Very much like the securitization/options/futures/bundles/CDO/SUV/CDPC/REMIC/LPFC/SIV/REPOS/ad nauseum/theoretical collateral products that aren't.

You had to go and make my joke all depressing...

241 funky chicken  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 8:29:33pm

re: #224 wlewisiii

Yes, read it but I'd argue that reading "Brave New World" is a far better prescriptive for the way our freedoms will die. "Animal Farm" is good for any young'n who likes the fantasy of revolution too.

Absolutely agree.

242 Obdicut  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 8:29:38pm

re: #230 HappyWarrior


Max Shachtman is probably my favorite Communist, who wasn't afraid to let his ideas evolve over time, while staying anti-tyrant the whole way through.

243 Gus  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 8:29:40pm

It's like the Three Musketeers and sword fight in here tonight!

Woosh!

244 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 8:29:51pm

re: #229 SanFranciscoZionist

Churchill, Wilde, and Twain. Three men who have practically everything witty ever said attributed to them.

"There is no such thing as a good tax. "
~ Sir Winston Churchill

245 Gus  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 8:30:10pm

Damn Commies!

246 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 8:30:11pm

re: #202 SanFranciscoZionist

The 'ancient Israelite patriarchal system of government' isn't a system of government. The Patriarchs themselves controlled small tribal family groups. Under the Judges, you essentially have the same kind of tribal anarchy, loosely controlled by respect for or allegiance to an assortment of religious leaders, warlords and community organizers. It's almost exactly what you see in places like rural Pakistan today, minus the AKs.

Then they go over to a monarchy.

What about this could possibly be used as a model for a modern nation-state?

It's a fantasy used by those who cannot fathom our world as it is.

247 Gus  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 8:30:44pm

Hippies are on my lawn! BRB Gonna blast some Charlie Daniels on 'em.

248 McSpiff  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 8:30:51pm

Any Fedora-heads in here tonight? I just set fedora up on a computer I want to use as a small home server and I'm having problems getting sshd working...

249 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 8:30:58pm

re: #230 HappyWarrior

Yeah, I've been recommended that before. The character of Snowball in AF is why I briefly thought Trotsky was ok. Not a fan anymore. The one Communist I guess I do admire is Dubcek and to another extent Gorbachev. Guys like Deng Xiaopeng and Zhou Enlai in China fascinate me but I am not an admirer of either man.

Totally random side note, but I am currently helping a bunch of kids work on their UC application essays, all of them Chinese-born, or children of Chinese immigrants.

They're seventeen or so now, which means that they were all small kids in the 90s, as China was going through those giant economic changes. Their parents, are, by and large, people who jumped on that train.

It's been very interesting to see them discuss this in their writing.

250 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 8:31:04pm

re: #206 Gus 802

Yep. So why fake it.

That's what I figure. F' the rest and their legendary, predictable resentments.

251 Obdicut  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 8:31:15pm

re: #236 Dark_Falcon

Thank you for the clarification, but my major complaint is that you're using that as a litmus test for all Communists. There are many communists who were duped by the USSR, but the work they did in the US on behalf of Civil Rights, workers rights, worker safety, voting rights, et al. far outstripped any damage they did to the US by their support of the USSR.

252 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 8:31:31pm

re: #203 Dark_Falcon

I'm not sure it was a shock that moved TR to act. The Jungle was also very much intended as an anti-corporate book, but TR was able to focus attention onto the food safety aspects of it and thus cast the anti-corporate aspects into shadow. A very nice piece of political deflection by TR, that still ended up producing a useful reform.

I will, however, that Upton Sinclair was not the kind of radical I was talking about. He left-wing, to be sure, but he would never have accepted the idea of "liquidating class enemies".

I read one book by Upton Sinclair, it was so boring and horrible I forgot what it was and never read another by him. The kid wanted to see the milkshake movie. I didn't investigate first and walked out considering it my pennace for all infractions since the day I was born.

253 Gus  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 8:31:37pm

re: #250 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

That's what I figure. F' the rest and their legendary, predictable resentments.

Oh the resentments last. Trust me on that one.

254 bratwurst  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 8:32:05pm

re: #229 SanFranciscoZionist

Churchill, Wilde, and Twain. Three men who have practically everything witty ever said attributed to them.

Will Rogers probably deserves honorable mention on that list.

And as far as back pain goes, I started doing Pilates earlier this year and it has made a HUGE difference for me....this is after totally wasting time and money with a quack of a chiropractor last year and getting no relief at all.

255 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 8:32:43pm

My father was once a campus cop. He has apparently spent the whole day watching the tapes from Davis, and periodically screaming.

256 Gus  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 8:33:06pm

re: #229 SanFranciscoZionist

Churchill, Wilde, and Twain. Three men who have practically everything witty ever said attributed to them.

So you're now against raising taxes on the rich?

//

257 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 8:33:16pm

"We contend that for a nation to tax itself into prosperity is like a man standing in a bucket and trying to lift himself up by the handle."
~ Sir Winston Churchill

258 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 8:33:29pm

re: #254 bratwurst

Pilates? Invented by Mark Twain.

I bet you didn't know that.

259 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 8:33:36pm

re: #254 bratwurst

Will Rogers probably deserves honorable mention on that list.

And as far as back pain goes, I started doing Pilates early this year and it has made a HUGE difference for me...this is after totally wasting time and money with a quack of a chiropractor last year and getting no relief at all.

Thanks. I have a doctor's appt. on Tuesday, so we'll see.

260 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 8:33:51pm

re: #204 Obdicut

I bought stock in dingers.

We could set up an offshore SIV (which I guess are all off shore) and bundle them into AAA grade bonds --then deposit them (I forgot which Acronym in which you deposit them) then borrow against them at 100% of value. Then we could take that money and buy pork bellies.

Whadya think?

261 Obdicut  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 8:34:04pm

re: #257 NJDhockeyfan

"Let's gas some Kurds"-- Winston Churchill

262 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 8:34:23pm

re: #258 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Pilates? Invented by Mark Twain.

I bet you didn't know that.

Can you see him exercising with a cigar?

263 Gus  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 8:34:31pm

re: #261 Obdicut

"Let's gas some Kurds"-- Winston Churchill

You bastard!

//

264 HappyWarrior  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 8:34:46pm

re: #249 SanFranciscoZionist

Totally random side note, but I am currently helping a bunch of kids work on their UC application essays, all of them Chinese-born, or children of Chinese immigrants.

They're seventeen or so now, which means that they were all small kids in the 90s, as China was going through those giant economic changes. Their parents, are, by and large, people who jumped on that train.

It's been very interesting to see them discuss this in their writing.

Saw a neat documentary that covered a few Chinese families over the course of the economic boom. I loved that professor because he made history more than just about famous people. Tough grader but one of my favorite professors ever.

265 McSpiff  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 8:34:58pm

re: #261 Obdicut

"Let's gas some Kurds"-- Winston Churchill

Yup, great war PM but not a great all around politician. There's a reason he lost elections...

266 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 8:35:15pm

re: #257 NJDhockeyfan

"We contend that for a nation to tax itself into prosperity is like a man standing in a bucket and trying to lift himself up by the handle."
~ Sir Winston Churchill

“Rich bachelors should be heavily taxed. It is not fair that some men should be happier than others” — Oscar Wilde

267 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 8:35:44pm

re: #261 Obdicut

"Let's gas some Kurds"-- Winston Churchill

Bessie Braddock: “Sir, you are drunk.”
Churchill: “Madam, you are ugly. In the morning, I shall be sober.”

268 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 8:35:52pm

re: #262 NJDhockeyfan

Can you see him exercising with a cigar?

Unfortunately, I can, and now the image will not leave me.

269 William Barnett-Lewis  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 8:35:52pm

re: #238 funky chicken

Perhaps disgust would be a better word. I read that TR lost more men to food poisoning caused by consumption of bad canned meat than from enemy action in the San Juan Hill campaign. The Jungle hit at the right time, and the issue was personal for him.

Actually, malaria would likely have been the big killer. I probably should go look it up, but it wasn't until later that Dr. Walter Reed's work proved the mosquito vector, IIRC.

270 reine.de.tout  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 8:35:52pm

re: #254 bratwurst

Will Rogers probably deserves honorable mention on that list.

And as far as back pain goes, I started doing Pilates early this year and it has made a HUGE difference for me...this is after totally wasting time and money with a quack of a chiropractor last year and getting no relief at all.

I do Pilates Reformer. It was actually originally developed as a form of physical therapy for various aches and pains including back problems.

re: #259 SanFranciscoZionist

SFZ - ask your doc if your condition is OK for doing Pilates or yoga (or both, which is what I do).

Thanks. I have a doctor's appt. on Tuesday, so we'll see.

271 goddamnedfrank  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 8:36:05pm

re: #261 Obdicut

"Let's gas some Kurds"-- Winston Churchill

"My milkshake brings all the boys to the yard"-- Winston Churchill

272 Gus  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 8:36:13pm

Churchill used to cry in front of dignitaries if he didn't get his way. He was a strange man.

273 HappyWarrior  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 8:36:23pm

My favorite Churchill is his one on Clement Atlee who I would have voted for over him if I were a Briton in 45. "He has all the virtues I dislike and none of the vices I admire."

274 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 8:36:45pm

re: #251 Obdicut

Thank you for the clarification, but my major complaint is that you're using that as a litmus test for all Communists. There are many communists who were duped by the USSR, but the work they did in the US on behalf of Civil Rights, workers rights, worker safety, voting rights, et al. far outstripped any damage they did to the US by their support of the USSR.

Uh lol, why do you think conservative absolutists and other dumb bigots are so resentful of civil rights, worker's rights, worker safety, voting rights, and "Communism", in the first place?

I hope you don't think it's a coincidence of timing, and/or coloring, that Barack Obama is the ultimate socialist communist obamunist federal government subversive in the eyes of the tea party.

275 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 8:36:49pm

re: #268 SanFranciscoZionist

Unfortunately, I can, and now the image will not leave me.

You can thank me later ;)

276 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 8:36:49pm

re: #224 wlewisiii

Yes, read it but I'd argue that reading "Brave New World" is a far better prescriptive for the way our freedoms will die. "Animal Farm" is good for any young'n who likes the fantasy of revolution too.

I forgot about Animal Farm.

there is another that I can never remember the name of, Mangers and Engineers, were the major theme. No, it was not about IBM.

277 Obdicut  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 8:37:13pm

re: #271 goddamnedfrank

"My milkshake brings all the boys to the yard"-- Winston Churchill

"Come at me bro" -- General Patton.

278 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 8:37:19pm

re: #253 Gus 802

Oh the resentments last. Trust me on that one.

Lol tell me about it.

279 Interesting Times  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 8:37:27pm

re: #224 wlewisiii

Yes, read it but I'd argue that reading "Brave New World" is a far better prescriptive for the way our freedoms will die.

Have you seen this?

Orwell's 1984 vs. Huxley's Brave New World

280 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 8:37:28pm

re: #228 NJDhockeyfan

Life was more simple back then. No cellphones, TV, cars, fast food restaurants...I could live like that.

No antibiotics, no vaccines . . . .

281 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 8:37:31pm

Nancy Astor: “Sir, if you were my husband, I would give you poison.”
Churchill: “If I were your husband I would take it.”

282 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 8:37:34pm

If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.
Oscar Wilde

283 HappyWarrior  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 8:38:14pm

re: #281 NJDhockeyfan

Nancy Astor: “Sir, if you were my husband, I would give you poison.”
Churchill: “If I were your husband I would take it.”

Win. I love that one.

284 McSpiff  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 8:38:24pm

re: #274 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

Do you believe all conservatives are bigots?

285 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 8:38:27pm

re: #238 funky chicken

Perhaps disgust would be a better word. I read that TR lost more men to food poisoning caused by consumption of bad canned meat than from enemy action in the San Juan Hill campaign. The Jungle hit at the right time, and the issue was personal for him.

Likely true. TR valued the lives of those he led, and as President worked to fix those problems that had plagued the Army during the Spanish-American War. He did not succeed entirely, but he did greatly improve the Army's organization and in the case of the M1903 Springfield's original Rod Bayonet, he prevented a horribly flawed weapon from even being issued.

He publicly demonstrated the rod bayonet's flaws as it was demonstrated for him. TR had a sentry give him his Krag- Jorgesson rifle, fixed that rifle's bayonet, and then chopped the Krag's knife bayonet down on the Springfield's rod bayonet, snapping the rod in two. He then ordered the 1903's bayonet changed to a more conventional type. A classic case of practical experience proving more valuable than innovation isolated from practicalities.

286 HappyWarrior  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 8:38:39pm

Rumors of my death have greatly been exaggerated.
Twain.

287 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 8:38:50pm

re: #240 McSpiff

You had to go and make my joke all depressing...

I'm sorry.

I'm beginning to find it rather ridiculous --comical, in fact.

288 Obdicut  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 8:38:59pm

re: #274 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

Uh lol, why do you think conservative absolutists and other dumb bigots are so resentful of civil rights, worker's rights, worker safety, voting rights, and "Communism", in the first place?

Well, possibly because those are absolute antithetical to their own 'values'?

I hope you don't think it's a coincidence of timing, and/or coloring, that Barack Obama is the ultimate socialist communist obamunist federal government subversive in the eyes of the tea party.

You lost me. Obama is hated by the Tea Party because he's a black liberal intellectual. I'm not sure where coincidence plays into this.

289 Obdicut  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 8:39:44pm

re: #282 SanFranciscoZionist

If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.
Oscar Wilde

"I'm a sexual tyrannosaurus" -- Benjamin Franklin.

290 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 8:39:49pm

re: #286 HappyWarrior

Rumors of my death have greatly been exaggerated.
Twain.

I love that one.

291 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 8:40:20pm

re: #286 HappyWarrior

Rumors of my death have greatly been exaggerated.
Twain.

"Morality, like art, means drawing a line someplace." Wilde

292 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 8:40:28pm

re: #258 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Pilates? Invented by Mark Twain.

I bet you didn't know that.

I need a link for that one.

I am tortured by those trained by Joseph Pilates.

293 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 8:41:14pm

re: #238 funky chicken

Perhaps disgust would be a better word. I read that TR lost more men to food poisoning caused by consumption of bad canned meat than from enemy action in the San Juan Hill campaign. The Jungle hit at the right time, and the issue was personal for him.

TR has put today's Republican duncecaps in a scylla/charibdis, and I think it's hilarious.

They're stuck between claiming him as one of their own, while simultaneously having to disavow him as a "progressive", ie. librul, commie, socialist, marxist, blahblah.

Dumb bigots..

294 funky chicken  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 8:41:20pm

Churchill fought depression, and possibly bipolar all his life, apparently.

In a sparkling essay in his book Black Dog, Kafka's Mice, and Other Phenomena of the Human Mind, psychiatrist and historian Anthony Storr wrote:

"Had he been a stable and equable man, he could never have inspired the nation. In 1940, when all the odds were against Britain, a leader of sober judgment might well have concluded that we were finished."

[Link: www.bipolar-lives.com...]

295 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 8:41:33pm

re: #251 Obdicut

Thank you for the clarification, but my major complaint is that you're using that as a litmus test for all Communists. There are many communists who were duped by the USSR, but the work they did in the US on behalf of Civil Rights, workers rights, worker safety, voting rights, et al. far outstripped any damage they did to the US by their support of the USSR.

I'm going to have to disagree. Giving Stalin the bomb outweighs all those positive things in my mind, not say their other attempts to foster internal disorder.

But we've both aired our views and stayed civil. I propose leaving matters as they stand on my end. The last word is yours if you wish it.

296 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 8:42:03pm

re: #284 McSpiff

Do you believe all conservatives are bigots?

Having been one, myself, nope.

Conservative bigots do not have to live that way, they choose to.

297 [deleted]  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 8:42:13pm
298 Obdicut  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 8:42:42pm

re: #295 Dark_Falcon

For fuck's sake, Dark, there you go again, pretending that all US communists somehow conspired together to "give Stalin the bomb". You can't blame every US communist for that. Makes no fucking sense.

299 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 8:43:07pm

re: #291 SanFranciscoZionist

"Morality, like art, means drawing a line someplace." Wilde

"The strength of women comes from the fact that psychology cannot explain us. Men can be analysed, women ... merely adored."
~ Wilde

300 Mentis Fugit  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 8:43:19pm

re: #9 Decatur Deb

He also has no notion of what a 'culture' is: "A system of learned and shared ideas, expressed through behavior."

Best (light-hearted) illustration of that I've ever seen was in a short promotional piece for Monty Python's The Meaning Of Life. At one point, they're interviewing some of the extras for a scene set in the Zulu Wars. This was filmed, thanks to the typical British movie budget, in some desolate corner of Scotland.* So there's this tall, athletic, very very African bloke in the full regalia of Cetewayo's army: he opens his mouth, and out comes the purest, broadest Glaswegian English you could ever hope to hear outside of a Billy Connolly concert.

What ever is the point of pretending to classify someone like that when you can't even distinguish ethnicity from culture?

* i.e. Any corner of Scotland.

301 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 8:43:19pm

"As yet, Bernard Shaw hasn't become prominent enough to have any enemies, but none of his friends like him." Wilde, being mean

302 funky chicken  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 8:44:56pm

re: #293 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

TR has put today's Republican duncecaps in a scylla/charibdis, and I think it's hilarious.

They're stuck between claiming him as one of their own, while simultaneously having to disavow him as a "progressive", ie. librul, commie, socialist, marxist, blahblah.

Dumb bigots..

John McCain is the only current GOP leader I've heard praise TR.

Ron Paul wants to dismantle the FDA in the name of "consumer freedom." The rest of them are worthless and fall somewhere between.

303 Obdicut  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 8:45:01pm

And I'm off to bed. Final quote:

We are a government of laws. Any laws some government hack can find to louse up a man who's down.

-- Murray Kempton

So let's work, as he did, to make it better.

[Link: www.rollingstone.com...]

304 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 8:45:25pm

re: #288 Obdicut

Well, possibly because those are absolute antithetical to their own 'values'?

Which "values"?

They claim a lot of "values".

You lost me. Obama is hated by the Tea Party because he's a black liberal intellectual. I'm not sure where coincidence plays into this.

Don't get lost, the question about communism, socialism and Obama's being Black was quite obviously rhetorical, not literal.

305 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 8:45:34pm

re: #301 SanFranciscoZionist

"As yet, Bernard Shaw hasn't become prominent enough to have any enemies, but none of his friends like him." Wilde, being mean

"To get back my youth I would do anything in the world, except take exercise, get up early, or be respectable."
~ Wilde

306 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 8:45:59pm

I have had no nap today.

Night all!

307 McSpiff  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 8:46:17pm

re: #296 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

Having been one, myself, nope.

Conservative bigots do not have to live that way, they choose to.

Woah, no idea you were formally conservative. Care to explain your transition from conservative to liberal?

308 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 8:47:00pm

re: #305 NJDhockeyfan

"To get back my youth I would do anything in the world, except take exercise, get up early, or be respectable."
~ Wilde

"A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject."
Churchill

309 McSpiff  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 8:47:46pm

re: #308 SanFranciscoZionist

"A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject."
Churchill

Of course you'd win the thread.

310 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 8:47:59pm

re: #308 SanFranciscoZionist

"A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject."
Churchill

"If everyone is thinking alike, someone isn't thinking."
~ General George Patton

311 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 8:49:13pm

re: #298 Obdicut

For fuck's sake, Dark, there you go again, pretending that all US communists somehow conspired together to "give Stalin the bomb". You can't blame every US communist for that. Makes no fucking sense.

That was not my intent. I was saying that as Communism lead Julius and Ethel Rosenberg and others to give give atomic secrets to the USSR (that in addition to a great of other espionage done by other Communists), so Communism's effect on the United States must be considered as negative. Not all or even most communists were treacherous, but enough were to render the ideology a negative force. That is my revised and extended opinion.

312 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 8:49:24pm

re: #295 Dark_Falcon

Giving Stalin the bomb outweighs all those positive things

I bet you even wonder why conservative whites can't bet but 17 Black people to vote with you, too.

313 William Barnett-Lewis  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 8:49:43pm

re: #279 publicityStunted

Have you seen this?

Orwell's 1984 vs. Huxley's Brave New World

No I hadn't. It's an interesting comparison but I think it's more interesting to compare where each is more accurate. Much as I hate his use of the word, Steve's AMIDOL certainly seems to fit this analysis... :(

314 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 8:50:11pm

re: #307 McSpiff

Woah, no idea you were formally conservative. Care to explain your transition from conservative to liberal?

Oh, BURN!

315 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 8:50:25pm

re: #307 McSpiff

Woah, no idea you were formally conservative. Care to explain your transition from conservative to liberal?

I've been doing so at LGF for the past 9 mos.

316 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 8:50:59pm

re: #315 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

I've been doing so at LGF for the past 9 mos.

oh, burn :D

317 goddamnedfrank  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 8:51:17pm

re: #302 funky chicken

John McCain is the only current GOP leader I've heard praise TR.

Ron Paul wants to dismantle the FDA in the name of "consumer freedom." The rest of them are worthless and fall somewhere between.

There's a good reason for that (and one I never tire of posting):

The man of great wealth owes a peculiar obligation to the State, because he derives special advantages from the mere existence of government. Not only should he recognize this obligation in the way he leads his daily life and in the way he earns and spends his money, but it should also be recognized by the way in which he pays for the protection the State gives him.

-TR, acceptance speech for Best New Rap Artist Grammy Award - 1909.

318 Gus  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 8:51:30pm

re: #316 WindUpBird

oh, burn :D

Derp.

319 McSpiff  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 8:52:21pm

re: #315 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

I've been doing so at LGF for the past 9 mos.

re: #314 Dark_Falcon

Oh, BURN!

re: #316 WindUpBird

oh, burn :D

I have literally no idea whats going on in this thread at this point, but it seems like everyone is enjoying themselves, so I guess that's good?

My question was genuine, but I guess I missed some sarcasm at some point...

320 goddamnedfrank  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 8:52:39pm

re: #317 goddamnedfrank

P.S. Roosevelt recorded under the name M.C. Rough Rider

321 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 8:52:53pm

"The great French Marshall Lyautey once asked his gardener to plant a tree. The gardener objected that the tree was slow growing and would not reach maturity for 100 years. The Marshall replied, 'In that case, there is no time to lose; plant it this afternoon!' "
~ John F. Kennedy

322 Gus  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 8:53:04pm

Jeremiah Wright!

Class of 2004.

323 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 8:53:48pm

re: #314 Dark_Falcon

Oh, BURN!

Lol what "burn", Mr. PermaGAZE/Eternal Emotional Infant?

The answer to the question is simple: but WHY aren't you a conservative anymore!?!?!

Easy. Dumb.conservative.bigots.

Sick of absorbing their ceaseless social hangups, tired of perpetuating them in my own life, against my own person.

Next question.

324 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 8:54:00pm

re: #319 McSpiff

re: #314 Dark_Falcon

re: #316 WindUpBird

I have literally no idea whats going on in this thread at this point, but it seems like everyone is enjoying themselves, so I guess that's good?

My question was genuine, but I guess I missed some sarcasm at some point...

Df is being dumb, that is what happened in #314

I was making fun of the dumb, that would be my #316

325 McSpiff  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 8:55:00pm

re: #324 WindUpBird

Df is being dumb, that is what happened in #314

I was making fun of the dumb, that would be my #316

So if I just smile and nod at everyone, that works?

326 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 8:55:06pm

We were doing pretty well today.

327 William Barnett-Lewis  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 8:55:22pm

re: #320 goddamnedfrank

P.S. Roosevelt recorded under the name M.C. Rough Rider

And endorsed certain condoms french letters in nickelodeon advertisements?

328 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 8:55:24pm

re: #325 McSpiff

So if I just smile and nod at everyone, that works?

Smile and wave, boys, smile and wave!

329 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 8:55:39pm

re: #319 McSpiff

NP, McSpiff. See #323.

330 Gus  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 8:56:11pm

re: #323 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

Lol what "burn", Mr. PermaGAZE/Eternal Emotional Infant?

The answer to the question is simple: but WHY aren't you a conservative anymore!?!?!

Easy. Dumb.conservative.bigots.

Sick of absorbing their ceaseless social hangups, tired of perpetuating them in my own life, against my own person.

Next question.

Looks like a collective group stab on ya' tonight. I've seen them do this before. Don't worry about it.

But heck at least we got rid of the Kahanists which is good.

331 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 8:56:16pm

I think I've found the source of the confusion.

re: #307 McSpiff

Woah, no idea you were formally conservative. Care to explain your transition from conservative to liberal?

I thought McSpiff was trying for some snark.

McSpiff, did you mean to say "formerly" but instead wrote "formally"?

332 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 8:56:25pm

re: #325 McSpiff

So if I just smile and nod at everyone, that works?

Turn the lightbulb, yes. In public, that always works.

333 Targetpractice  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 8:56:58pm

Greetings, programs. What's all the fuss tonight?

334 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 8:57:04pm

re: #330 Gus 802

Looks like a collective group stab on ya' tonight. I've seen them do this before. Don't worry about it.

But heck at least we got rid of the Kahanists which is good.

Which one of those loons showed up and where?

335 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 8:57:15pm

re: #331 Dark_Falcon

I think I've found the source of the confusion.

I thought McSpiff was trying for some snark.

McSpiff, did you mean to say "formerly" but instead wrote "formally"?

I was both, Permagaze.

Joke's on you, as usual.

336 Killgore Trout  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 8:57:47pm

Hippie temptation

337 bratwurst  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 8:57:59pm

After reading The Imperial Cruise and The President and the Assassin in the last year, my opinion of Teddy Roosevelt has dropped considerably! I can absolutely recommend both books in any case.

338 Gus  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 8:58:24pm

re: #334 Dark_Falcon

Which one of those loons showed up and where?

Look. I've said a million things before that people didn't get. I'm not going to bother explaining now. To be honest. I still don't get this place. I'm here purely because of the addiction.

339 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 8:58:34pm

re: #333 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

Greetings, programs. What's all the fuss tonight?

We're all trying to run the other team's lightcycles into our jetwalls, but other than that we're good.

/I couldn't resist.

340 McSpiff  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 8:58:38pm

re: #331 Dark_Falcon

I think I've found the source of the confusion.

I thought McSpiff was trying for some snark.

McSpiff, did you mean to say "formerly" but instead wrote "formally"?

Ha! Honest typo, although I see the humor in it now.

341 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 8:58:48pm

re: #333 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

Greetings, programs. What's all the fuss tonight?

There was a heated debate over socialists & communists. Someone couldn't play nice and all hell broke lose.

342 Gus  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 8:58:54pm

re: #336 Killgore Trout

Hippie temptation

[Video]

Do you have one for misogynists?

343 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 8:59:22pm

re: #330 Gus 802

Looks like a collective group stab on ya' tonight. I've seen them do this before. Don't worry about it.

But heck at least we got rid of the Kahanists which is good.

Yeah, indignant, resentful conservatives are part of the territory, when on the internet, I've learned.

Kahanists, though, ugg.

344 ProGunLiberal  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 8:59:33pm

re: #330 Gus 802

We still have one.

345 funky chicken  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 8:59:37pm

Jeremiah Wright is an ass.

By DAVID SQUIRES
[no phone numbers allowed]
6:19 p.m. EDT, June 10, 2009

HAMPTON— Same brashness. Same spontaneity. Same lightning-rod remarks.

If you were thinking the Rev. Jeremiah Wright had been tempered by a national backlash that nearly derailed Barack Obama's trip to the White House, guess again.

In an exclusive interview at the 95th annual Hampton University Ministers' Conference, Wright told the Daily Press that he has not spoken to his former church member since Obama became president, and he implied that the White House won't allow Obama to talk to him.

Daily Press introduces Daily Savvy Deals. Sign Up now to receive offers that are 50% off or more!

"Them Jews ain't going to let him talk to me," Wright said. "I told my baby daughter that he'll talk to me in five years when he's a lame duck, or in eight years when he's out of office. ...

We're talking Cynthia McKinney level toxic stupidity here.

346 McSpiff  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 9:00:01pm

For the record, I didn't get to sleep until 4AM this morning, after a booze filled, emotionally draining night. If I seem slow, its because I am.

347 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 9:00:31pm

re: #345 funky chicken

Jeremiah Wright is an ass.

We're talking Cynthia McKinney level toxic stupidity here.

Well, shit, what does he expect? We can't let Obama TALK to him!!

//Jews have to be careful about these things.

348 Targetpractice  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 9:00:39pm

re: #341 NJDhockeyfan

There was a heated debate over socialists & communists. Someone couldn't play nice and all hell broke lose.

It seems the most interesting fights happen while I'm away.

349 Gus  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 9:01:08pm

LOL

350 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 9:01:25pm

"Lower rates of taxation will stimulate economic activity and so raise the levels of personal and corporate income as to yield within a few years an increased – not a reduced – flow of revenues to the federal government."
~ John F. Kennedy

351 Interesting Times  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 9:01:28pm

re: #313 wlewisiii

No I hadn't. It's an interesting comparison but I think it's more interesting to compare where each is more accurate. Much as I hate his use of the word, Steve's AMIDOL certainly seems to fit this analysis... :(

Here's another version, more in-depth. (I got this from negativ, who remarked it was true except for the fact that both Orwell and Huxley were right...)

352 Gus  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 9:01:36pm

It worked.

353 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 9:01:37pm

re: #337 bratwurst

After reading The Imperial Cruise and The President and the Assassin in the last year, my opinion of Teddy Roosevelt has dropped considerably! I can absolutely recommend both books in any case.

The first of those books sounds like a conspiracy theory to me. The second I'll likely read, as I very much enjoy that sort of "The Devil in the White City" type of book.

354 McSpiff  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 9:02:05pm

re: #352 Gus 802

It worked.

Good, Good...

355 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 9:02:09pm

re: #339 Dark_Falcon

We're all trying to run the other team's lightcycles into our jetwalls, but other than that we're good.

/I couldn't resist.

Everything is always obsession over killing machines of massive death. EVERYTHING! A-l-w-a-y-s.

/lmao

356 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 9:02:16pm

re: #348 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

It seems the most interesting fights happen while I'm away.

This one was both dull and pointless.

357 Gus  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 9:02:31pm

3 years ago most of the people on LGF would be calling Øyvind Strømmen a Stalinist.

Deal with it man. And some of them still have friends with those same people.

358 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 9:03:07pm

re: #350 NJDhockeyfan

"Lower rates of taxation will stimulate economic activity and so raise the levels of personal and corporate income as to yield within a few years an increased – not a reduced – flow of revenues to the federal government."
~ John F. Kennedy

Taxation with representation ain't so hot either. ~Gerald Barzan

359 McSpiff  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 9:03:10pm

re: #355 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

Everything is always obsession over killing machines of massive death. EVERYTHING! A-l-w-a-y-s.

/lmao

You do know he's talking about a Disney movie right?

360 goddamnedfrank  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 9:03:17pm

Fly fishing without a reel. It's crazy!

361 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 9:03:24pm

re: #345 funky chicken

Jeremiah Wright is an ass.

We're talking Cynthia McKinney level toxic stupidity here.

Jeremiah Wright is just another dumb, stupid bigot.

362 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 9:03:27pm

re: #348 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

It seems the most interesting fights happen while I'm away.

Try posting great quotes by famous smart people. It helps from getting involved in the lunacy.

363 Targetpractice  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 9:03:32pm

re: #356 SanFranciscoZionist

This one was both dull and pointless.

Oh, so then it was a classic Thanksgiving dinner argument? Or is that just something that happens with my family?

/

364 jvic  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 9:03:34pm

re: #230 HappyWarrior

Thanks for the reminder about Dubcek. I admire him too.

For his decency, he was taken to Moscow in chains.

365 Gus  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 9:03:48pm

Robert Byrd!

366 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 9:03:55pm

re: #357 Gus 802

3 years ago most of the people on LGF would be calling Øyvind Strømmen a Stalinist.

Deal with it man. And some of them still have friends with those same people.

I disagree, Gus. Most of those who left are not that sort of delusional person. Some are, but most are not.

367 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 9:03:55pm

re: #357 Gus 802

3 years ago most of the people on LGF would be calling Øyvind Strømmen a Stalinist.

Deal with it man. And some of them still have friends with those same people.

And yet, the blog marches on. Somehow.

368 CuriousLurker  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 9:04:04pm

re: #347 SanFranciscoZionist

Well, shit, what does he expect? We can't let Obama TALK to him!!

//Jews have to be careful about these things.

Since we're kinda-sorta friends here, do you suppose that while you're at it you could get the banks to lower the interest rates on my credit cards? //

369 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 9:04:13pm

re: #359 McSpiff

You do know he's talking about a Disney movie right?

Did you see the disclaimer at the end, or did you ignore it?

/lmao

370 Targetpractice  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 9:04:34pm

re: #362 NJDhockeyfan

Try posting great quotes by famous smart people. It helps from getting involved in the lunacy.

"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe."

- Albert Einstein

371 Gus  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 9:04:55pm
372 Varek Raith  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 9:05:04pm

My brain stopped.
:P

373 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 9:05:05pm

re: #365 Gus 802

Robert Byrd!

57 states telepropmter margaret sanger affirmative action big gubbmint!

374 Targetpractice  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 9:05:35pm

re: #372 Varek Raith

My brain stopped.
:P

Hit the reboot button.

/

375 Gus  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 9:05:37pm

re: #366 Dark_Falcon

I disagree, Gus. Most of those who left are not that sort of delusional person. Some are, but most are not.

Right. Whatever. Down ding this.

376 McSpiff  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 9:05:57pm

re: #369 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

Did you see the disclaimer at the end, or did you ignore it?

/lmao

Gotta do the double sarcasm slash, or it just comes across as "ha ha but seriously 9_9"

//I think?

377 Gus  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 9:06:02pm

It's like Neocon Pavlov's dog heaven in here tonight.

378 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 9:06:18pm

re: #359 McSpiff

You do know he's talking about a Disney movie right?

Thanks. It was just a joke reference to the Tron movies.

379 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 9:06:34pm

re: #363 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

Oh, so then it was a classic Thanksgiving dinner argument? Or is that just something that happens with my family?

/

I go to friends. This year, I get to meet the friend's new boyfriend.

(My family's personal best Thanksgiving moment ever: my grandfather gets rolling on black people. My cousin, who at this point was about fourteen, leans across the table, and whispers to her mom, urgently, "MOM! Grandpa's a bigot!!"

My aunt says in a normal tone of voice, "Honey, did I forget to tell you that? I'm sorry.")

380 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 9:06:43pm

re: #357 Gus 802

3 years ago most of the people on LGF would be calling Øyvind Strømmen a Stalinist.

Deal with it man. And some of them still have friends with those same people.

BROAD BRUSH

/!!!

381 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 9:07:08pm

re: #365 Gus 802

Robert Byrd!

God bless him!

382 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 9:07:16pm

re: #376 McSpiff

Gotta do the double sarcasm slash, or it just comes across as "ha ha but seriously 9_9"

//I think?

Ah, ok. I will remember that.

383 Interesting Times  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 9:07:30pm

re: #350 NJDhockeyfan

"Lower rates of taxation will stimulate economic activity and so raise the levels of personal and corporate income as to yield within a few years an increased – not a reduced – flow of revenues to the federal government."
~ John F. Kennedy

Context means everything:

The top marginal tax rate was 91 percent, which JFK wanted reduced to a "more sensible" 65 percent. Compare that with today's 35 percent top rate, and ask: If supply-siders are so enamored of JFK's tax policies, would they advocate a return to a "more sensible" 65 percent top rate? Applying Kennedy's tax talk to the current structure, JFK biographer Robert Dallek says, is like comparing "apples and watermelons."

384 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 9:07:52pm

re: #368 CuriousLurker

Since we're kinda-sorta friends here, do you suppose that while you're at it you could get the banks to lower the interest rates on my credit cards? //

Sure thing! We'll sign you up for the Special Friends of Zion deal.

385 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 9:08:16pm

re: #375 Gus 802

Right. Whatever. Down ding this.

Not gonna do that. You aren't being mean or insulting. That sort of thing is what merits downdings in my eyes, not a simple factual error.

386 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 9:08:40pm

re: #379 SanFranciscoZionist

And people wonder why I so rudely decline TG with families I don't know.

387 McSpiff  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 9:09:53pm

re: #386 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

And people wonder why I so rudely decline TG with families I don't know.

Its a good policy... the stories I could tell...

388 Varek Raith  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 9:10:10pm

re: #384 SanFranciscoZionist

Sure thing! We'll sign you up for the Special Friends of Zion deal.

Can I be the antihero???

389 funky chicken  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 9:10:28pm

re: #357 Gus 802

3 years ago most of the people on LGF would be calling Øyvind Strømmen a Stalinist.

Deal with it man. And some of them still have friends with those same people.

Dude? I've been around since 2004 under this nic. I was around with another one before that. There's no way you can say that. They might call him a wishy-washy liberal multiculturist or something, but Stalinist? Even most of the crazies at least knew the definition of Stalinist, and opposing racism just .. isn't .. Stalinist. That's why I remain so puzzled that GOV used that term. It simply makes no sense, at all.

390 Gus  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 9:10:38pm

re: #385 Dark_Falcon

Not gonna do that. You aren't being mean or insulting. That sort of thing is what merits downdings in my eyes, not a simple factual error.

You're always the victim. You ever notice that?

391 Targetpractice  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 9:10:51pm

re: #379 SanFranciscoZionist

I go to friends. This year, I get to meet the friend's new boyfriend.

(My family's personal best Thanksgiving moment ever: my grandfather gets rolling on black people. My cousin, who at this point was about fourteen, leans across the table, and whispers to her mom, urgently, "MOM! Grandpa's a bigot!!"

My aunt says in a normal tone of voice, "Honey, did I forget to tell you that? I'm sorry.")

Reminds me of my grandmother. I love the woman to death, but there are times when she opens her mouth that I want to hide my face in reflexive embarrassment. Grew up in small town Kentucky and to this day truly hates only one black man: Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. I only ever asked her once why and was informed about how he'd "stirred up a bunch of stuff" and had made life hard on a bunch of folks.

Have I mentioned my family are all bunch of rednecks?

392 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 9:11:44pm

re: #386 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

And people wonder why I so rudely decline TG with families I don't know.

Well, I got to miss that whole episode, because my folks and I had the other set of my father's parents for Thanksgiving. We heard about it later, while the turkey was being put away.

393 CuriousLurker  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 9:11:57pm

re: #384 SanFranciscoZionist

Sure thing! We'll sign you up for the Special Friends of Zion deal.

Great! And when the Global Caliphate takes over America, I'll make sure you're exempt form the dhimmi tax. But, uh, don't mention that Special Friends of Zion deal, m'kay? That might get us both in trouble.

394 McSpiff  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 9:12:08pm

Ever show up to a house for TG only to discover they've put up a banner on the place announcing their awesome celebration? I have...

395 funky chicken  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 9:12:17pm

re: #383 publicityStunted

more like apples and meatloaf

396 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 9:12:52pm

re: #389 funky chicken

Dude? I've been around since 2004 under this nic. I was around with another one before that. There's no way you can say that. They might call him a wishy-washy liberal multiculturist or something, but Stalinist? Even most of the crazies at least knew the definition of Stalinist, and opposing racism just .. isn't .. Stalinist. That's why I remain so puzzled that GOV used that term. It simply makes no sense, at all.

Because they don't like being called on their racist crap, so they figure calling him a Stalinist shows him.

397 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 9:12:52pm

re: #387 McSpiff

Its a good policy... the stories I could tell...

Heh the stories I could tell.

People are sick, is all I have to say.

398 William Barnett-Lewis  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 9:12:59pm

re: #351 publicityStunted

Here's another version, more in-depth. (I got this from negativ, who remarked it was true except for the fact that both Orwell and Huxley were right...)

(Bolded for truth)

Well, yes, that is the biggest problem. What I was getting at in my other post was that it was interesting to look at where (in the world) each was more accurate. The 1984 model is best in a peasant society with a strong aristocracy (Russia, Germany, and especially Spain in the 30's in the past, south east asia fits well today) while Huxley's ideas fit the modern classic western hyper industrialized obsessive/compulsive acquisition culture.

Both are equally strong poisons for the dream of secular liberal western culture.

399 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 9:13:17pm

"I've been barbecued, stewed, screwed, tattooed, and fried by people claiming to be my friends. The human race has gone backward, not forward, since the days we were apes swinging through the trees. "
~ W.C. Fields

400 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 9:13:30pm

re: #390 Gus 802

You're always the victim. You ever notice that?

Yerp, it's a conservative. //

401 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 9:13:46pm

re: #390 Gus 802

You're always the victim. You ever notice that?

Gus, I hate to point this out, but you're the one who's randomly posting about Robert Byrd, just to express your horror that this is still a politically mixed blog.

402 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 9:14:13pm

re: #391 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

Reminds me of my grandmother. I love the woman to death, but there are times when she opens her mouth that I want to hide my face in reflexive embarrassment. Grew up in small town Kentucky and to this day truly hates only one black man: Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. I only ever asked her once why and was informed about how he'd "stirred up a bunch of stuff" and had made life hard on a bunch of folks.

Have I mentioned my family are all bunch of rednecks?

Sounds like my husband's family!

403 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 9:14:43pm

re: #393 CuriousLurker

Great! And when the Global Caliphate takes over America, I'll make sure you're exempt form the dhimmi tax. But, uh, don't mention that Special Friends of Zion deal, m'kay? That might get us both in trouble.

It's a deal!

404 Gus  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 9:15:09pm

re: #401 SanFranciscoZionist

Gus, I hate to point this out, but you're the one who's randomly posting about Robert Byrd, just to express your horror that this is still a politically mixed blog.

You don't have to hate it but yeah I guess so. I am in horror.

405 jvic  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 9:15:18pm

re: #128 Dark_Falcon

Quoted For Truth. Thank You, SFZ.

Indeed. Every time--and that's quite a few times--I'm tempted to give in to unbridled partisanship, I remember Paul Tsongas and think of SFZ and (too few) others like her.

406 Targetpractice  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 9:15:30pm

re: #401 SanFranciscoZionist

Gus, I hate to point this out, but you're the one who's randomly posting about Robert Byrd, just to express your horror that this is still a politically mixed blog.

This is a politically mixed board? I thought we'd purged all deviant thought and exiled all who could not be properly recivilized to the Cursed Earth?

///

407 Gus  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 9:15:43pm

I think Nancy Pelosi is an idiot.

408 Gus  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 9:16:06pm

And Obama is a lame ass president.

409 McSpiff  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 9:16:14pm

LOUD NOISES

410 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 9:16:52pm

re: #405 jvic

Indeed. Every time--and that's quite a few times--I'm tempted to give in to unbridled partisanship, I remember Paul Tsongas and think of SFZ and (too few) others like her.

I think this is the first time I've ever been mentioned in the same sentence as Paul Tsongas.

411 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 9:17:03pm

re: #391 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

Reminds me of my grandmother.

Yeah, this is why I go against that popular notion that they're all white males.

Some of the worst of the worst among them are the women.

Don't ever make the mistake of allowing a curious one in your bed unawares, is my only advice. /bleh

412 Gus  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 9:17:31pm

I can't stand the Nanny State. Taxes suck. Democrats have done shit for the past 6 years. The health care mandate is a load of carp. Anti-smokers are a bunch of douche bags.

413 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 9:17:40pm

re: #401 SanFranciscoZionist

Gus, I hate to point this out, but you're the one who's randomly posting about Robert Byrd, just to express your horror that this is still a politically mixed blog.

Not true.

I do it, too. //

414 sagehen  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 9:17:43pm

Jon Huntsman is on Weekend Update (although it's a pretty weak SNL overall tonight, good thing Hulu lets you pick out just that one bit.)

415 Killgore Trout  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 9:17:49pm

re: #342 Gus 802

Do you have one for misogynists?

yes

416 funky chicken  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 9:18:19pm

re: #396 SanFranciscoZionist

Because they don't like being called on their racist crap, so they figure calling him a Stalinist shows him.

When I was teaching they made us take one of those "learning types" assessments. It turns out I'm a "precise learner," which may explain why so few of my teachers liked me.

"Stalinist" just ... bah. It's so completely stupid and wrong that I can't comprehend how they even came up with it. It's like they have a right-wing random insult generator that spit it out, and they went with it without even consulting a dictionary.

417 Gus  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 9:19:07pm

Oh. And if you raise taxes on the rich guess what? Nothing will happen. The economy will still suck.

Also. Obama's jobs plan is pathetic. It sounds like something put together by a mayor from a liberal city.

David Axlerod is also a loser.

418 HappyWarrior  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 9:19:09pm

re: #414 sagehen

Jon Huntsman on Weekend Update.

Damned RINO prefers them New York liberals to the real Americans of Iowa like Bob Vander Plaatz. :D.

419 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 9:19:11pm

re: #414 sagehen

Jon Huntsman on Weekend Update.

Really!

The real one?

< -- finds him kinda pretty /blush

420 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 9:19:41pm

re: #413 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

Not true.

I do it, too. //

All right, Gus is ONE of the people. His chief weapon is Robert Byrd and...

421 Gus  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 9:20:14pm

Who's with me! I thought this was a mixed blog. ;)

422 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 9:20:46pm

re: #410 SanFranciscoZionist

What in blazes ever happened to Paul Tsongas, anyway.

423 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 9:20:49pm

re: #390 Gus 802

You're always the victim. You ever notice that?

Geeze, Gus. I was saying you were not in fact victimizing anyone. I was criticizing you or saying anything at all about myself other than what in my mind merits a downding (and again, I don't think you merited one). I've been trying hard to move away from 'victim claims these past few months, and doing so has made my life much better.

424 funky chicken  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 9:21:28pm

re: #405 jvic

Indeed. Every time--and that's quite a few times--I'm tempted to give in to unbridled partisanship, I remember Paul Tsongas and think of SFZ and (too few) others like her.

Ha! I sent a hundred bucks to Paul Tsongas. It was my first political donation. Then I voted for "none of the above" AKA that crazy guy Ross Perot. Tsongas probably had no chance to win, but I really, really liked him.

425 Varek Raith  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 9:21:37pm

re: #421 Gus 802

Who's with me! I thought this was a mixed blog. ;)

I'm tired so I'm going to not sleep.
No, really, night everyone.
You all better not get banned or I'll zzzaaapppp you.
:)

426 McSpiff  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 9:21:43pm

re: #421 Gus 802

Who's with me! I thought this was a mixed blog. ;)

I really dislike tax breaks. The idea that the government will let me keep more of my money, if I spend it the way they want rubs me the wrong way. Of course, it has forced me to start saving for a house down payment/ retirement... but still.

427 Gus  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 9:21:46pm

re: #423 Dark_Falcon

Geeze, Gus. I was saying you were not in fact victimizing anyone. I was criticizing you or saying anything at all about myself other than what in my mind merits a downding (and again, I don't think you merited one). I've been trying hard to move away from 'victim claims these past few months, and doing so has made my life much better.

Relax DF. I'm not going to sit here thinking about that for the rest of my life. It was just a thought. In fact. I do the same thing.

428 freetoken  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 9:21:49pm

re: #412 Gus 802

The health care mandate is a load of carp.

Carp never get any respect. They are the Rodney Dangerfield of the Icthyopsida.

429 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 9:22:01pm

re: #422 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

What in blazes ever happened to Paul Tsongas, anyway.

He has since died.

430 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 9:22:48pm

re: #422 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

What in blazes ever happened to Paul Tsongas, anyway.

He died in 97. Tried to get Colin Powell to run for president on a third-party ticket.

(I read this, and it sounds as though he died as a result of trying to get Powell to run, possibly when Powell (or Mrs. Powell) killed him. This is incorrect. Cancer.)

431 CuriousLurker  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 9:22:57pm

A typical LGF smackdown day:

432 sod  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 9:22:59pm

re: #406 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

Yeah, it sucks out here in the cold.

433 Gus  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 9:23:09pm

re: #426 McSpiff

I really dislike tax breaks. The idea that the government will let me keep more of my money, if I spend it the way they want rubs me the wrong way. Of course, it has forced me to start saving for a house down payment/ retirement... but still.

If you raise taxes it only means one thing. The Feds will just spend more. They won't ever change.

434 funky chicken  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 9:23:36pm

re: #394 McSpiff

Ever show up to a house for TG only to discover they've put up a banner on the place announcing their awesome ceremony? I have...

A Thanksgiving ceremony banner? Or does TG stand for something else?

435 jvic  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 9:23:59pm

re: #410 SanFranciscoZionist

I think this is the first time I've ever been mentioned in the same sentence as Paul Tsongas.

As with Tsongas, I probably wouldn't be overjoyed by how President SFZ ran the country--but I wouldn't be terrified that you'd ruin the place.

Which is more than I say about many politicians who claim to agree with me.

436 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 9:24:05pm

re: #428 freetoken

Carp never get any respect. They are the Rodney Dangerfield of the Icthyopsida.

But whether the carp are fancy koi or just common carp, they'll come as fast as their fins can carry them if you start throwing small hunks of bread into the water near them. I like carp, accept for those nasty jumping Silver Carp.

437 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 9:24:28pm

If you make any money, the government shoves you in the creek once a year with it in your pockets, and all that don't get wet you can keep.
~Will Rogers

438 Interesting Times  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 9:24:53pm
439 Gus  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 9:25:10pm

Keynesian economics is only a stop gap measure. As a long term economic policy it would destroy competition and the free market. Essentially, Keynesian economics works as corporate welfare diverting what the private sector should be doing onto the public sector.

440 HappyWarrior  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 9:25:32pm

Tsongas, Tsongas. I don't remember the 1992 Dem primaries at all. Wasn't he said to be on Clinton's left on social issues but his right on economics. Oh and how do you pronounce his last name?

441 Gus  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 9:25:48pm

re: #438 publicityStunted

Image: weird-thread.jpg

Indeed it is.

442 McSpiff  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 9:26:22pm

re: #434 funky chicken

A Thanksgiving ceremony banner? Or does TG stand for something else?

Yup. It actually said 'T-Give 05' on it.

443 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 9:26:39pm

I'm proud to pay taxes in the United States; the only thing is, I could be just as proud for half the money.
~Arthur Godfrey

444 funky chicken  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 9:27:08pm

re: #440 HappyWarrior

Well, kinda. He wanted single payer health care tho, and WJC wasn't as committed to that as Hillary was.

Or WJC is just a more wily politician.

445 HappyWarrior  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 9:27:27pm

Expletive deleted- Richard Nixon

446 Gus  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 9:28:11pm

See. I went from defending Marxists to sounding like a Teabagger. But you know what? That's really what I'm like.

447 bratwurst  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 9:28:21pm

re: #428 freetoken

Carp never get any respect. They are the Rodney Dangerfield of the Icthyopsida.

Try spending Christmas in central Europe sometime...carp get a LOT of respect. You can buy a live carp on virtually every street corner in the Czech Republic, as they are typically the main course on Christmas Eve. The vendor will either beat it to death before your eyes (a bloody scene) or send it home in a plastic bag where it frequently takes over the family bathtub until its time to shine.

448 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 9:28:32pm

re: #439 Gus 802

Keynesian economics is only a stop gap measure. As a long term economic policy it would destroy competition and the free market. Essentially, Keynesian economics works as corporate welfare diverting what the private sector should be doing onto the public sector.

OK, that I'm happy to upding.

449 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 9:28:53pm

“It is money, money, money! Not ideas, not principles, but money that reigns supreme in American politics.”
~ Robert C. Byrd

450 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 9:29:12pm

re: #446 Gus 802

See. I went from defending Marxists to sounding like a Teabagger. But you know what? That's really what I'm like.

Yep, you're a wild and crazy guy. that's what we love about you.

451 funky chicken  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 9:29:20pm

re: #442 McSpiff

Huh.

Harmless, but kinda odd. :-)

452 HappyWarrior  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 9:29:45pm

re: #444 funky chicken

Well, kinda. He wanted single payer health care tho, and WJC wasn't as committed to that as Hillary was.

Or WJC is just a more wily politician.

Gotcha.

453 funky chicken  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 9:30:30pm

re: #447 bratwurst

Ew.

Anyway, I'm off to bed. Hopefully I won't dream of bloody carp. Poor things.

454 McSpiff  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 9:30:42pm

re: #451 funky chicken

Huh.

Harmless, but kinda odd. :-)

Didn't quite realize the level at which the family liked to self-promote. The 'small family' dinner quickly turned into much more of a sales pitch to a large number of people...

455 William Barnett-Lewis  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 9:31:23pm

Ah hell with it. Good night all. May tomorrow actually see some of us thinking.

456 Dancing along the light of day  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 9:31:23pm

re: #170 SanFranciscoZionist

If I'm a figment of your imagination, can I have my back get better, and get this job I'm interviewing for on Monday?

Prayers for you on both counts!

457 funky chicken  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 9:31:29pm

re: #454 McSpiff

Oh. That sounds like my inlaws. Annoying....

good night :-)

458 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 9:32:00pm

If the Lord loveth a cheerful giver, how he must hate the taxpayer!
~John Andrew Holmes

459 McSpiff  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 9:32:09pm

re: #457 funky chicken

Oh. That sounds like my inlaws. Annoying...

good night :-)

night!

460 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 9:33:43pm

OK, one more tax quote:

Taxes: Of life's two certainties, the only one for which you can get an automatic extension. (Author Unknown)

461 HappyWarrior  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 9:35:06pm

""My God, this is a hell of a job! I have no trouble with my enemies . . . but my damn friends, they're the ones that keep me walking the floor nights."
Warren Harding.

462 CuriousLurker  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 9:38:19pm

re: #446 Gus 802

See. I went from defending Marxists to sounding like a Teabagger. But you know what? That's really what I'm like.

I haven't really seen all that many people here who are consistent & predictable, and even those who are surprise me every once in a while. I think we make a lot of assumptions about each other, and when we find out we were wrong it surprises us (or disappoints us, or pisses us off).

But, whatever...people are people. When it gets to be too much, I just hit the little "x" on my open LGF tabs and—*POOF!*—instant serenity.

463 Gus  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 9:38:37pm
464 jvic  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 9:39:06pm

re: #440 HappyWarrior

Tsongas, Tsongas. I don't remember the 1992 Dem primaries at all. Wasn't he said to be on Clinton's left on social issues but his right on economics. Oh and how do you pronounce his last name?

1. Paraphrased quote from speech to the Democratic Convention: You can't be pro-jobs and anti-business.

2. Accent on the first syllable: ts (as in tsetse) + on + gus (with the u tending toward a short ah)

465 Gus  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 9:40:02pm

re: #462 CuriousLurker

I haven't really seen all that many people here who are consistent & predictable, and even those who are surprise me every once in a while. I think we make a lot of assumptions about each other, and when we find out we were wrong it surprises us (or disappoints us, or pisses us off).

But, whatever...people are people. When it gets to be too much, I just hit the little "x" on my open LGF tabs and—*POOF!*—instant serenity.

I'm done. I'll admit. I was being an asshole tonight. I still meant what I said. Except for the assholey parts.

466 HappyWarrior  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 9:40:03pm

re: #464 jvic

1. Paraphrased quote from speech to the Democratic Convention: You can't be pro-jobs and anti-business.

2. Accent on the first syllable: ts (as in tsetse) + on + gus (with the u tending toward a short ah)

thank you.

467 ProGunLiberal  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 9:40:55pm

OT, but I should mention that the city whose larger metropolitan area most of my dad's side came from (Barring the Norweigan/Swedish, who came from the Fredrikstad) had a relatively large battle in World War II.

The Battle of Groningen

468 Gus  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 9:41:16pm

I think a Perry vs. Pelosi debate would be good. Two dumb fuck politicians debating each other would be rather entertaining.

469 Gus  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 9:44:01pm
470 McSpiff  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 9:44:14pm

re: #465 Gus 802

I'm done. I'll admit. I was being an asshole tonight. I still meant what I said. Except for the assholey parts.

Very cool. I've said some asshole things lately as well, so I'll add a +1 to that.

471 CuriousLurker  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 9:44:50pm

re: #465 Gus 802

I'm done. I'll admit. I was being an asshole tonight. I still meant what I said. Except for the assholey parts.

I still love ya' {{{Gus}}}. I even still love KT, heh.

472 Gus  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 9:45:13pm

re: #470 McSpiff

Very cool. I've said some asshole things lately as well, so I'll add a +1 to that.

Yep. I think we all have. But I won't force it out of anyone. ;)

473 CuriousLurker  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 9:46:02pm

re: #471 CuriousLurker

I still love ya' {{{Gus}}}. I even still love KT, heh.

But even more than Gus & KT, I still love...MARVIN GAYE!

474 Targetpractice  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 9:46:16pm

re: #472 Gus 802

Yep. I think we all have. But I won't force it out of anyone. ;)

Speak for yourself, dipshit, I'm as pure as fucking snow.

///

475 Gus  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 9:46:28pm

re: #471 CuriousLurker

I still love ya' {{{Gus}}}. I even still love KT, heh.

Right on. Yep. KT and I are probably competing for the same attention. :)

476 McSpiff  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 9:46:56pm

re: #472 Gus 802

Yep. I think we all have. But I won't force it out of anyone. ;)

Also, we tend to comment in real time as stories develop here. That's lead me to say things without having the full picture. Also regrettable but par for the course.

477 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 9:47:05pm

"Any fool can make a rule, and any fool will mind it."
~ Henry David Thoreau

478 Gus  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 9:48:04pm

re: #476 McSpiff

Also, we tend to comment in real time as stories develop here. That's lead me to say things without having the full picture. Also regrettable but par for the course.

Let's get it on! Woot! Sorry. Listening to Marvin Gaye.

479 Gus  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 9:48:30pm

re: #473 CuriousLurker

But even more than Gus & KT, I still love...MARVIN GAYE!

[Video]

Nice.

480 goddamnedfrank  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 9:48:34pm

re: #473 CuriousLurker

But even more than Gus & KT, I still love...MARVIN GAYE!

[Video]

I ♥ lamp

481 bratwurst  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 9:51:17pm

re: #469 Gus 802

The Rush vids provide a good excuse to post this:

482 Kragar  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 9:52:13pm

re: #480 goddamnedfrank

I ♥ lamp

Do you really love lamp or are you just saying that because you see one in the room?

483 Gus  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 9:52:22pm

re: #481 bratwurst

The Rush vids provide a good excuse to post this:

[Video]

I was thinking...

The Four Tops - I Can't Help Myself

484 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 9:53:10pm

"If you put the federal government in charge of the Sahara Desert, in 5 years there'd be a shortage of sand."
~ Milton Friedman

485 Gus  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 9:54:41pm
486 Gus  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 9:55:59pm

re: #484 NJDhockeyfan

"If you put the federal government in charge of the Sahara Desert, in 5 years there'd be a shortage of sand."
~ Milton Friedman

We'll need at least a billion dollars to replenish the sand supplies. Meanwhile the Republicans will blame the Democrats for the loss of sand. At least before both parties buy stock in the sand replenishment company.

//

487 funky chicken  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 9:56:10pm

OMG.

Gingrich's New Website Changes Positions He Held That Are Now 'Wrong'
Presidential contender Newt Gingrich released a new website to save his nervous supporters, primarily from himself. The website lays out 16 positions that he once held, but now either regrets or considers simply “wrong.”

For example, while he once favored an individual mandate to our healthcare system, Gingrich has now come “to the principled conclusion that a mandate to purchase health insurance was unconstitutional, unworkable and counterproductive to lowering the cost of health care.”

From TPM. Just had to share. Now I'm off to bed.

Romney/Gingrich 2012. Because who really can remember what they believed yesterday anyway?

488 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 9:57:27pm

"Whatever you tax, you get less of."
~ Alan Greenspan

489 Targetpractice  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 9:58:26pm

re: #486 Gus 802

We'll need at least a billion dollars to replenish the sand supplies. Meanwhile the Republicans will blame the Democrats for the loss of sand. At least before both parties buy stock in the sand replenishment company.

//

When will the sand be replenished? Sorry, can't say, our earlier estimates were too optimistic. It could be another year, it could be another decade. In either case, we cannot touch the funding or oppose increased funding, as jobs are at stake!

//

490 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 9:59:07pm

re: #486 Gus 802

We'll need at least a billion dollars to replenish the sand supplies. Meanwhile the Republicans and the Democrats will blame the Democrats each other for the loss of sand. At least before both parties buy stock in the sand replenishment company.

//

FIFY

491 CuriousLurker  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 9:59:32pm

re: #483 Gus 802

I was thinking...

The Four Tops - I Can't Help Myself

[Video]

Woohoo—Motown Saturday night! Everybody Plays the Fool:

492 jvic  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 10:00:00pm

re: #464 jvic

1. Paraphrased quote from speech to the Democratic Convention: You can't be pro-jobs and anti-business.

Afterthought: that speech was given before NAFTA and before the efflux of jobs overseas. I hope that, were he alive today, Tsongas would address the trade-offs of globalization without foregoing its benefits and with a constructive attitude toward the US private sector.

493 Gus  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 10:01:34pm

re: #490 NJDhockeyfan

FIFY

Yep. It sucks. Tired of it all. You know something's wrong when you're a liberal, like me, and Alan Simpson starts making sense. But it's true. We need to start listening to him. Amongst others but he really does make a lot of sense.

494 Gus  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 10:03:16pm

Just shave off a percentage from all programs. Make it 10 percent or something and be done with it.

495 dell*nix  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 10:04:26pm

For the Steelers Fans here, the following is a Steeler Fan showing her support at the Key West Fantasy Fest. Enjoyable, but NSFW at second glance.

[Link: www.fantasyfestmemories.com...]

496 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 10:06:17pm

re: #490 NJDhockeyfan

FIFY

Ah, partisan politics. The only thing worse is one-party politics, which tend to be literally murderous.


Back in the 1980's, that Sahara joke was frequently aimed at the Soviet Union:

Q: What would happen if the Soviet Union invaded the Sahara Desert?

A: Nothing for 5 years, then a shortage of sand.

497 Gus  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 10:06:45pm

Simpson's cool too. He mentions giving to Planned Parenthood. He's an old school Republican from Wyoming.

498 freetoken  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 10:06:57pm

re: #492 jvic

I've been thinking about the whole free-trade thing lately, and if my long time stance that it is fundamentally a good thing ought to be changed.

The tentative conclusion I've come to is that the problem our country is facing, at least one of them, isn't that companies are so willing to move production overseas, but that America as a whole undervalues our labor. We really do. We put manual labors down at the bottom of the proverbial totem pole. Americans as a whole don't suffer from over-valuing their hourly labor rates, but by undervaluing the importance of labor to our lives.

This might seem counter intuitive at first, but think about it: if we collectively enforced the idea that "cheaper" is not better, how would our society be different?

499 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 10:07:46pm

re: #494 Gus 802

Just shave off a percentage from all programs. Make it 10 percent or something and be done with it.

With the national debt at $15 trillion and counting something has to be done. The reason Congress is at historic low poll numbers is because they whine and fight but accomplish nothing and we end up getting fucked.

500 EdDantes  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 10:08:37pm

"Congress deadlocked: Unable To act" Best news I've heard all day.-
Will Rogers.

501 Gus  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 10:09:07pm

re: #499 NJDhockeyfan

With the national debt at $15 trillion and counting something has to be done. The reason Congress is at historic low poll numbers is because they whine and fight but accomplish nothing and we end up getting fucked.

They're all doing what their lobbyists are telling them to do.

502 freetoken  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 10:10:27pm

re: #501 Gus 802

They're all doing what their lobbyists are telling paying them to do.

503 jvic  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 10:12:35pm

re: #494 Gus 802

Just shave off a percentage from all programs. Make it 10 percent or something and be done with it.

And increase every tax by the same percentage amount that you reduce spending on every program. Iterate until the deficit is closed.

Once the economy revives and so do tax revenues, formulate a similar policy to pay off the debt.

504 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 10:13:18pm

"Politics is supposed to be the second oldest profession. I have come to realize that it bears a very close resemblance to the first."
~ Ronald Reagan

505 CuriousLurker  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 10:14:06pm

R-E-S-P-E-C-T

G'nite, Lizards.

506 Gus  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 10:14:11pm

re: #502 freetoken

That's what I mean. You know very well that it's even coal state Democrats that are opposing AGW legislation for example. You also know that Obama has done jack for AGW and hasn't even reinstalled solar panels on the White House. Even Dr. Holdren and Chu are talking about "clean coal". It's all sham. Chu's a tool. Seriously, this is all rather funny.

507 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 10:14:25pm

re: #503 jvic

And increase every tax by the same percentage amount that you reduce spending on every program. Iterate until the deficit is closed.

Once the economy revives and so do tax revenues, formulate a similar policy to pay off the debt.

Not sure about that. Bit too 'blunt force' for my taste. Some programs can't be cut like that. You can't build only 90% of a destroyer and get any use out of it.

508 EdDantes  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 10:14:32pm

re: #505 CuriousLurker

Take out the TCP!

509 CuriousLurker  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 10:15:29pm

re: #508 EdDantes

Take out the TCP!

Gotta love the queen. ;)

510 EdDantes  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 10:16:27pm

re: #509 CuriousLurker

Gotta love the queen. ;)

I do indeed.

511 freetoken  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 10:18:05pm

re: #506 Gus 802

Indeed, that's why Clinton didn't even submit the Kyoto Accord to the Senate, the very one negotiated by his VP. It was the lack of support from his own party that told Clinton to give up and to save face. If he would have submitted it he probably would have only gotten a dozen or so votes, which would have been tremendously embarrassing.

512 CuriousLurker  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 10:18:16pm

Hey, RWC: Before I go, check your @mentions in Twitter. I sent you a link with some nice industrial photography yesterday.

~~~GONE~~~

513 austin_blue  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 10:18:20pm

re: #410 SanFranciscoZionist

I think this is the first time I've ever been mentioned in the same sentence as Paul Tsongas.

You mean Paul Taxongas?

514 Gus  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 10:20:20pm

re: #511 freetoken

Indeed, that's why Clinton didn't even submit the Kyoto Accord to the Senate, the very one negotiated by his VP. It was the lack of support from his own party that told Clinton to give up and to save face. If he would have submitted it he probably would have only gotten a dozen or so votes, which would have been tremendously embarrassing.

Hey. I've been around the block or two. I've known that Clinton's been BS artist about this for a while now. And that includes Gore. Gore punted on Kyoto back in the 90s. Everyone knows that. Or at last they should. That's why he's been doing the climate change films. Because he feels guilty. And he should. Gore used to be a tool.

515 Gus  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 10:22:46pm

Gore also used to lick the boots of the Reverend "God hates Fags" Phelps. Sheesh.

516 jvic  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 10:22:54pm

re: #507 Dark_Falcon

Not sure about that. Bit too 'blunt force' for my taste. Some programs can't be cut like that. You can't build only 90% of a destroyer and get any use out of it.

It's too blunt force for my taste too, but blunt force seems to be the only thing that will modify our current modus operandi. Better that we impose it on ourselves than have it imposed on us by the global economy.

You can't build 90% of a destroyer, but you can build 9 when the military-industrial complex is saying you should build 10. They may even be correct, but that's part of the risk involved in climbing out of a deep and unstable hole.

517 austin_blue  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 10:23:25pm

re: #498 freetoken

I've been thinking about the whole free-trade thing lately, and if my long time stance that it is fundamentally a good thing ought to be changed.

The tentative conclusion I've come to is that the problem our country is facing, at least one of them, isn't that companies are so willing to move production overseas, but that America as a whole undervalues our labor. We really do. We put manual labors down at the bottom of the proverbial totem pole. Americans as a whole don't suffer from over-valuing their hourly labor rates, but by undervaluing the importance of labor to our lives.

This might seem counter intuitive at first, but think about it: if we collectively enforced the idea that "cheaper" is not better, how would our society be different?

A living wage? From your mouth to God's ear.

518 Gus  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 10:23:28pm
519 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 10:24:13pm

re: #494 Gus 802

Just shave off a percentage from all programs. Make it 10 percent or something and be done with it.

We're back to ten percent across the board?

520 Gus  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 10:25:25pm

re: #519 SanFranciscoZionist

We're back to ten percent across the board?

Whatever works. Just make it an even number and take it off the top.

521 Gus  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 10:28:05pm

Really won't matter much though. We'll balance the budget but we'll still have to face the Eurozone crisis. It's not that easy. There's no smoking gun. If you think we'll balance the budget and be back in good times you would be wrong. There is no smoking gun at this point.

522 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 10:28:38pm

re: #515 Gus 802

Gore also used to lick the boots of the Reverend "God hates Fags" Phelps. Sheesh.

Many people wouldn't know that if Gore failed to invent the internet.

523 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 10:29:52pm

re: #521 Gus 802

Really won't matter much though. We'll balance the budget but we'll still have to face the Eurozone crisis. It's not that easy. There's no smoking gun. If you think we'll balance the budget and be back in good times you would be wrong. There is no smoking gun at this point.

this is the new normal

524 Targetpractice  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 10:31:26pm

re: #521 Gus 802

Really won't matter much though. We'll balance the budget but we'll still have to face the Eurozone crisis. It's not that easy. There's no smoking gun. If you think we'll balance the budget and be back in good times you would be wrong. There is no smoking gun at this point.

Talk of balancing the budget is pointless when one side declares that they will not, under any circumstances, agree to raise taxes.

525 Kragar  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 10:31:29pm
526 Gus  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 10:32:26pm

re: #522 NJDhockeyfan

Many people wouldn't know that if Gore failed to invent the internet.

I voted for Clinton. I loved Clinton. I was a big fat liberal. I never liked Gore. I never trusted Gore. I hated Tipper. Gore is the worst thing that ever happened for climate change. Most people can see right through him. It's important to go beyond him with regards to issues. Clinton even gave us DOMA. I was never impressed with the Clinton Clan.

527 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 10:32:27pm

re: #522 NJDhockeyfan

e_e

is our children learning.

528 austin_blue  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 10:33:32pm

re: #519 SanFranciscoZionist

We're back to ten percent across the board?

Agreed. Bad policy.

529 EdDantes  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 10:35:54pm

My last Will Rogers quote: " How can they call it traffic when it ceases to move?"

530 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 10:36:03pm

re: #527 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

e_e

is our children learning.

A downding? Here is the transcript...

BLITZER: I want to get to some of the substance of domestic and international issues in a minute, but let's just wrap up a little bit of the politics right now.

Why should Democrats, looking at the Democratic nomination process, support you instead of Bill Bradley, a friend of yours, a former colleague in the Senate? What do you have to bring to this that he doesn't necessarily bring to this process?

GORE: Well, I will be offering -- I'll be offering my vision when my campaign begins. And it will be comprehensive and sweeping. And I hope that it will be compelling enough to draw people toward it. I feel that it will be.

But it will emerge from my dialogue with the American people. I've traveled to every part of this country during the last six years. During my service in the United States Congress, I took the initiative in creating the Internet. I took the initiative in moving forward a whole range of initiatives that have proven to be important to our country's economic growth and environmental protection, improvements in our educational system.

Here is the video...

And here is the best comment at YouTube...

@deusimperator Don't be so hard on gore. He really is a modest guy. He just had a slip of the tongue here letting everyone know he invented the internet. What is not public knowledge is his other inventions. He invented solar panels, wind technology, electric cars, LED lightbulbs and his biggest invention of them all........trees (that convert CO2 to oxygen). Of course these other inventions were just to offset all of the hot CO2 coming out of his big mouth!

LOL!

531 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 10:36:51pm

re: #498 freetoken

The tentative conclusion I've come to is that the problem our country is facing, at least one of them, isn't that companies are so willing to move production overseas, but that America as a whole undervalues our labor. We really do.

Well, yeah, America always did. When hasn't it been?

532 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 10:37:40pm

re: #529 EdDantes

My last Will Rogers quote: " How can they call it traffic when it ceases to move?"

How about some Einstein?

"The world is a dangerous place to live - not because of the people who are evil but because of the people who don't do anything about it."
~ Albert Einstein

533 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 10:37:55pm

re: #530 NJDhockeyfan

And here is the best comment at YouTube...

Figures, youtube is where you get your book larnin'.

534 freetoken  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 10:37:57pm

re: #517 austin_blue

A living wage? From your mouth to God's ear.

Well, I don't think I mean that, in particular.

I'm taking a bit of a bigger picture, standing back and looking at our lives collectively, in our society.

Tonight's "debate" had lots of talks about "values", but I contend that you can tell what a person truly values by watching them, not necessarily by listening to them.

The choices we make as a society reflect what we "value", and what we apparently value is lots, and lots, and lots and lots and lots and lots and lots of trinkets, often poorly made and not original.

E.g., we'd rather have 10 white resin chairs than one solid wooden chair. We buy 64oz. of colored sugar water than buy a single fig* We hold "debates" with 7 cartoon characters rather than pick between two solid leaders.

And so on.

If we take and accept this type of thinking - more and more of cheaper and cheaper things rather than perhaps fewer, maybe even one, high quality things... we apply that to other parts of our lives too.

WalMart became so huge by employing an army of Chinese workers making less than, we shall say, High Quality products and selling those cheap goods at prices so low that the (often) better products made locally could not compete. This was a collective choice of values, though the candidates tonight were not willing to even broach the reality of American society (probably because they rarely broach any reality unless pressed.)

When I go shopping I don't always look for the cheapest product. My (self conscious) buy habit is to look for the very best quality I can find. If I can't afford that (heh) then I find the next best thing (and I'll go down the list if I have to.) For example, I have no problem buying milk and eggs at a store with a better product, though more expensive, than the cheapest I can get at my local Safeway-owned mega-store. I do the same with chocolate (as everyone here knows by now.)

A "living wage" implies a culture in which everyone acknowledges that a person's wage (salary) is reflective of needs of life in the society. Wages are normally tied to productivity (and I'm not saying in general that wages ought not be - it is important), but as a society we need to make daily decisions that allow our society to live as a group at a level that minimizes pain in the group as a whole.

And that means making daily choices with more thought that we normally give.

Yes, I'm asking for a lot.

*Insert any nutritious fruit here.

535 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 10:39:47pm

re: #533 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

Figures, youtube is where you get your book larnin'.

So are you buying Al Gore's bullshit about creating the internet?

536 Gus  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 10:39:49pm

re: #528 austin_blue

Agreed. Bad policy.

Why?

537 Gus  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 10:40:30pm

So we just cut the budget according to what our lobbyists tell us to?

538 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 10:41:08pm

re: #535 NJDhockeyfan

So are you buying Al Gore's bullshit about creating the internet?

Apparently, you are.

539 Dancing along the light of day  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 10:41:23pm

re: #534 freetoken

Have you read the book A Year Without "Made in China": One Family's True Life Adventure in the Global Economy? It's an amazing story,totally changed many perspectives for me.

540 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 10:42:34pm

re: #538 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

How many carbon credits did you buy from Al Gore?

541 Gus  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 10:42:45pm

If you don't think there are corporate interests involved with Democrats then you're politically naive.

542 freetoken  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 10:43:00pm

re: #531 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

Well, yeah, America always did. When hasn't it been?

Your cynicism betrays your youth. There was a time when "Made in America" wasn't just a slogan to tug on peoples' hearts but was a display of pride by those who made the object in the work that they had done.

543 Gus  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 10:43:40pm

Who do you think has been selling "clean coal"? It's been Democrats. Coal state Democrats. It's even been Chu of the DOE and Holdren.

544 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 10:44:32pm

re: #540 NJDhockeyfan

How many carbon credits did you buy from Al Gore?

Cons invented tradeable permits, so zero.

You?

545 Gus  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 10:44:41pm

Barney Frank is best buddies with Ron Paul.

546 jvic  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 10:44:59pm

re: #498 freetoken

I've been thinking about the whole free-trade thing lately, and if my long time stance that it is fundamentally a good thing ought to be changed.

The tentative conclusion I've come to is that the problem our country is facing, at least one of them, isn't that companies are so willing to move production overseas, but that America as a whole undervalues our labor. We really do. We put manual labors down at the bottom of the proverbial totem pole. Americans as a whole don't suffer from over-valuing their hourly labor rates, but by undervaluing the importance of labor to our lives.

This might seem counter intuitive at first, but think about it: if we collectively enforced the idea that "cheaper" is not better, how would our society be different?

Modify that to 'cheaper is not always better' and I'm with you.

To some extent you see that kind of thing when national-chain supermarkets advertise that they carry local produce. (Back in happier times, I rewarded myself for a promotion at work. I wound up buying a business card case made by local artisans in wood and metal. It felt much more satisfying than the Tiffany case which I initially considered.)

My gut reaction is that you have an intriguing notion which might well work--if it happens as a voluntary, cultural shift more than a mandated, protectionist outcome. How that might play out--there'd have to more to it than 'Buy American'--is too much to get my head right now. This late at night I'm only good for regurgitating opinions I already hold.

547 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 10:45:28pm

re: #542 freetoken

Your cynicism betrays your youth.

Ah hahahaha

There was a time when "Made in America" wasn't just a slogan to tug on peoples' hearts but was a display of pride by those who made the object in the work that they had done.

See your own first sentence, above.

548 EdDantes  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 10:46:12pm

re: #530 NJDhockeyfan

A downding? Here is the transcript...

Here is the video...

And here is the best comment at YouTube...

LOL!

He did not say," I took the initiative in creating the internet."

He said," I took the initiative in creating the internet"

549 Gus  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 10:46:34pm

Did you check the vote for the "In God We Trust" bill? The majority of the Dems voted for it. Save a few. Pfft.

550 freetoken  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 10:47:00pm

re: #539 Floral Giraffe

You mean this one?
[Link: www.amazon.com...]

No, but I've heard about it.

I only picked Walmart since it's such an obvious example. But our lives are permeated by the same type of decision making. We can't help it in some ways - it's just a natural primate thing to do - follow the shiny bobble, think only of the "now", and so on.

The Advertising industry has made great exploitation of what Psychology has learnt about humans.

551 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 10:47:21pm

re: #544 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

Cons invented tradeable permits, so zero.

You?

None. It's a ripoff and made Al Gore over a billion dollars selling that scam to suckers.

552 Gus  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 10:47:30pm

Stop being afraid of your own shadow. Face it. Democrats are just as much the tools as Republicans.

553 Gus  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 10:47:55pm

We got the Patriot Act with the help of Dems.

554 Gus  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 10:48:08pm

Dems approved the Iraq War.

555 EdDantes  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 10:48:36pm

re: #548 EdDantes

Ok. it's the same thing. Never mind. :)

556 Gus  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 10:48:38pm

Dems signed off on waterboarding.

557 Gus  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 10:48:52pm

Dems signed off on Gitmo.

558 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 10:50:39pm

re: #551 NJDhockeyfan

None. It's a ripoff and made Al Gore over a billion dollars selling that scam to suckers.

I think it's hilarious that there are people such as yourself, who really believe whatever is said about stupid "Al Gore", "democrat party", "herman cain authentic black" and the rest of the rwnj garbage you're told.

rotfl

559 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 10:50:43pm

re: #552 Gus 802

Stop being afraid of your own shadow. Face it. Democrats are just as much the tools as Republicans.

"Suppose you were an idiot and suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself."
~ Mark Twain

560 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 10:50:44pm

This is where I came in.

Goodnight, folks.

561 austin_blue  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 10:50:45pm

Look, dividends should be treated as income and taxed as such. Long term stock sales (> than one year) should be indexed for inflation and taxed as income.

The $106,000 limit on income contributions to Social Security should be done away with. If you want to pay a CEO $3 million a year, cool. Pay into the fund. There are $2.3 trillion in SS funds that are being carried in bonds. SS isn't broke, we are just dipping into that fund right now. Even if nothing is changed, no retirees will collect less than 75% of which they are entitled. After around 2055, they will again be fully vested. A change to the $106,000 limit would fund it up to 90%.

Demographics are important.

in addition, the vast majority of Americans are completely clueless about how a graduated tax system operates.

Good job, Republicans! If the tax system was modified to be more progressive, an additional $2 thousand dollars would be removed for each additional $100,000 of income. Are you telling me that anyone wouldn't want to make make another $100,000 for an additional tax of $2,000? Get real.

As a whole, Americans have an average IQ of 100. Ponder that.

562 Gus  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 10:51:13pm

It was also the Blue Dogs that hassled us for abortion with the so called health care reform bill.

563 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 10:51:18pm

re: #558 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

I think it's hilarious that there are people such as yourself, who really believe whatever is said about stupid "Al Gore", "democrat party", "herman cain authentic black" and the rest of the rwnj garbage you're told.

rotfl

What I just posted about Al Gore, what is not true?

564 EdDantes  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 10:51:29pm

re: #553 Gus 802

We got the Patriot Act with the help of Dems.

Did Dems vote for the Gulf of Tonkin resolution?

565 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 10:51:57pm

re: #560 Dark_Falcon

This is where I came in.

Goodnight, folks.

Goodnight John Boy!

566 freetoken  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 10:52:00pm

re: #546 jvic

How that might play out--there'd have to more to it than 'Buy American'--is too much to get my head right now.

Oh, most certainly. I only used the daily commerce example since it's the easiest one.

I started down this path of thinking when I first lived in Japan and wondered why the Japanese did this or that... making decisions in ways that seemed quite foreign to me. Over time I came to appreciate that I had been programmed to live an "American Lifestyle", and surely I did do that for a great share of my life.

567 Gus  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 10:52:53pm

re: #564 EdDantes

Did Dems vote for the Gulf of Tonkin resolution?

I don't know the congressional vote. But it was during the LBJ White House. JFK ordered a couple of assassinations.

568 freetoken  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 10:54:16pm

re: #562 Gus 802

It was also the Blue Dogs that hassled us for abortion with the so called health care reform bill.

I think I've decided to put up a Page that might relate to that (somewhat) and break my vacation from Paging.

569 Gus  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 10:55:41pm

And the biggest asshole Democrat turned out to be Lieberman. At least by liberal standards. No wonder he lost in 2000. And that was Bush vs. Gore territory. Dimpled chads and all.

570 EdDantes  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 10:56:09pm

re: #567 Gus 802

I don't know the congressional vote. But it was during the LBJ White House. JFK ordered a couple of assassinations.

Rhetorical question. The democrats voted for the gulf of tonkin resoluition.

571 goddamnedfrank  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 10:57:37pm

re: #540 NJDhockeyfan

How many carbon credits did you buy from Al Gore?

All of them. I traded him for some magic beans and a picture of my penis dressed as Carol Channing's sock puppet Lamb Chop.

572 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 10:58:31pm

re: #571 goddamnedfrank

All of them. I traded him for some magic beans and a picture of my penis dressed as Carol Channing's sock puppet Lamb Chop.

Fantastic! Manbearpig must be very happy.

573 Gus  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 10:59:19pm

re: #570 EdDantes

Rhetorical question. The democrats voted for the gulf of tonkin resoluition.

Well. Considering we had Dixiecrats back then. But yes. It was approved by a Democrat president.

574 EdDantes  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 11:00:36pm

re: #571 goddamnedfrank

All of them. I traded him for some magic beans and a picture of my penis dressed as Carol Channing's sock puppet Lamb Chop.

It was Sherry Lewis who had lamb chop.

575 Gus  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 11:00:43pm
576 Gus  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 11:01:27pm

re: #575 Gus 802

[Link: www.archives.gov...]

Shown here is the Senate roll call tally sheet for the "Tonkin Gulf Resolution" on August 7, 1964, which gave President Lyndon Johnson authority to increase U.S. involvement in the war between North and South Vietnam. On August 4, 1964, President Lyndon Johnson announced that two days earlier, U.S. ships in the Gulf of Tonkin had been attacked by the North Vietnamese. Johnson dispatched U.S. planes against the attackers and asked Congress to pass a resolution to support his actions. The joint resolution "to promote the maintenance of international peace and security in southeast Asia" passed on August 7, with only two Senators dissenting, and became the subject of great political controversy in the course of the undeclared war that followed.

577 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 11:01:31pm

re: #574 EdDantes

It was Sherry Lewis who had lamb chop.

Carol Channing, Sherry Lewis...same thing.
/

578 EdDantes  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 11:03:15pm

re: #577 NJDhockeyfan

Carol Channing, Sherry Lewis...same thing.
/

Wrong! Sherry Lewis gave me my first stiffy.

579 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 11:04:50pm

re: #563 NJDhockeyfan

What I just posted about Al Gore, what is not true?

Wrong question. Besides you and other rwnj's still stuck in 1999, who really gives a crud what Al Gore said about the frickin internet?

580 Gus  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 11:05:25pm

Nytol.

581 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 11:07:58pm

re: #579 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

Wrong question. Besides you and other rwnj's still stuck in 1999, who really gives a crud what Al Gore said about the frickin internet?

I guess I'll take that as you agree with me.

582 EdDantes  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 11:16:48pm

re: #579 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

Wrong question. Besides you and other rwnj's still stuck in 1999, who really gives a crud what Al Gore said about the frickin internet?

What is rwnj's?

583 austin_blue  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 11:22:33pm

re: #581 NJDhockeyfan

I guess I'll take that as you agree with me.

A bit of background for you, which will make you appear to be an idiot:

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

Oops! It appears he led the way in funding it!

Huge fail, dude. Man up.

584 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 11:28:51pm

re: #583 austin_blue

A bit of background for you, which will make you appear to be an idiot:

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

Oops! It appears he led the way in funding it!

Huge fail, dude. Man up.

He wrote a bill but didn't create the internet. Unless of course he's some incredible computer programing nerd that we didn't know about.

Huge fail!

585 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 11:30:13pm

Shit, it's 2:30. I think I'll go to bed now. Cheers!

586 austin_blue  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 11:32:13pm

re: #584 NJDhockeyfan

He wrote a bill but didn't create the internet. Unless of course he's some incredible computer programing nerd that we didn't know about.

Huge fail!

If you had read the link, he never actually said he did. Why don't you go lick a dog's ass until it bleeds? Your value here is useless!

///

587 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 11:35:55pm

re: #581 NJDhockeyfan

I guess I'll take that as you agree with me.

Nothing in the post agreed with you. That wasn't even a good try, lazybones.

588 jvic  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 11:36:06pm

re: #583 austin_blue

re: #584 NJDhockeyfan

My understanding is that Gore foresaw how the Internet might evolve and was instrumental in nurturing its development (although iirc he was sympathetic to a pay-per-view scenario: much of his information superhighway would have been a toll road). By overstating his contribution, he wound up with less credit than he deserves.

589 Kronocide  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 11:37:06pm

Right wing talking point minion.

Gore deserves more credit than he is given. After making jokes at his expense a few times I've actually read the interview. He did not say he invented the internet.

More mindlessly moronic mendacious memes.

590 EdDantes  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 11:40:52pm

re: #589 BigPapa

Right wing talking point minion.

Who?

591 Kronocide  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 11:43:56pm

re: #590 EdDantes

Who?

NJD

592 austin_blue  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 11:44:15pm

re: #588 jvic

re: #584 NJDhockeyfan

My understanding is that Gore foresaw how the Internet might evolve and was instrumental in nurturing its development (although iirc he was sympathetic to a pay-per-view scenario: much of his information superhighway would have been a toll road). By overstating his contribution, he wound up with less credit than he deserves.

Correct. But he never claimed he invented the Internet. Just that he had pushed the enabling legislation that funded its creation. NJDHF is just full of shit.

593 EdDantes  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 11:48:52pm

In the year 1389 people were saying, "Boy, this is a long time ago."

Good night. everyone.

594 austin_blue  Sat, Nov 19, 2011 11:58:31pm

Occupy in !649:

"In 1649 to St. George's Hill
A ragged band they called the Diggers came to show the people's will
They defied the landlords, they defied the laws
They were the dispossessed reclaiming what was theirs."

We come in peace, they said, to dig and sow
We come to work the lands in common and make the waste ground grow
This earth divided we will make whole
So it may be a common treasury for all

The sin of property we do disdain
No man has any right to buy or sell the earth for private gain
By theft and murder they took the land
Now everywhere the walls spring up at their command

They make the laws to chain us well
The clergy dazzle us with heaven, or they damn us into hell
We will not worship the God they serve,
a God of greed who feeds the rich while poor folk starve

We work and eat together, we need no swords
We will not bow to masters, nor pay rent to the lords
Still we are free, though we are poor
Ye Diggers all, stand up for glory, stand up now!

From the men of property the orders came
They sent the hired men and troopers to wipe out the Diggers' claim
Tear down their cottages, destroy their corn
They were dispersed - only the vision lingers on

Ye poor take courage, ye rich take care
This earth was made a common treasury for everyone to share
All things in common, all people one
They came in peace - the order came to cut them down

595 Lidane  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 12:09:27am

Speaking of right wing idiocy, everyone's favorite dentist/lawyer/realtor is busy again:

Birthers Attempt To Remove Obama From New Hampshire Primary

The birther wars continue. Orly Taitz, birther queen of California, personally filed a complaint in New Hampshire on Saturday that challenged President Obama’s U.S. citizenship and argued for his removal from the state’s ballot, reports the Concord Monitor.

New Hampshire’s electoral governing body, the Ballot Law Commission, turned down the complaint in a public hearing via 5-0 vote. It got pretty ugly shortly thereafter.

596 Kragar  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 12:31:54am

Syrian Baath Party in Damascus 'hit by rockets'

At least two rocket-propelled grenades have hit a building of Syria's governing Baath Party in the capital Damascus, residents and activists say.

After initial reports of smoke rising from the building, there were no obvious signs of damage on Sunday.

If confirmed, it would be the first such attack reported inside the capital since the uprising began in March.

597 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 1:17:35am

re: #257 NJDhockeyfan

"We contend that for a nation to tax itself into prosperity is like a man standing in a bucket and trying to lift himself up by the handle. trying to pull himself up by his own bootstraps."
~ Sir Winston Churchill

fixed

598 researchok  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 1:25:30am

Morning, all

599 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 2:27:21am

Some good morning music. NSFW

600 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 2:39:55am

re: #79 Gus 802

I think the closest there is to Stalinism is probably North Korea. And even then that's Stalin Lite.

Terror-wise it's Stalin Lite. On the other hand, everyday life-wise NK is way worse from what I've read about both.

601 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 2:41:33am

re: #600 Sergey Romanov

Do you consider the existence of the NK camps to be part of any "terror"?

602 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 2:41:58am

I hope this is true:

scharpling scharpling
Guys, I just found out I'll be hosting SNL on December 10th. Not sure who the musical guest is yet. #DreamComeTrue #WishMeLuck

[Link: twitter.com...]

603 Kragar  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 2:51:24am

Woman Utters Line Never Previously Recorded In A Police Report

According to investigators, Williams--who lives four doors down from her estranged husband at the 77 Motor Inn--showed up at his door and asked Danny Williams and another man to “eat my pussy.” At this point, Williams, pictured in the mug shot at right, “commenced to undress herself,” reported Deputy Ross Mellinger.

While Danny Williams “declined said invitation,” the other man, Adam Watson, told cops that he “agreed to perform at her request.” However, as Watson approached Williams, “he became overwhelmed by horrible vaginal odor emitting from Melissa Williams.” Watson, understandably, “declined to proceed any further.”

This is when Melissa Williams allegedly “produced a lock-back folding knife,” opened it, and pointed the weapon at her estranged husband. She then reportedly uttered a line never before memorialized in a police report: “Somebody is going to eat my pussy or I’m going to cut your fucking throat.”

604 freetoken  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 2:54:19am
605 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 2:55:19am
Newt Gingrich and Rick Santorum want to abolish the United States Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit, which Mr. Gingrich says is “consistently radical”—meaning it upholds civil rights and civil liberties and other things he doesn’t like. Michele Bachmann and Ron Paul say they would forbid the Supreme Court from ruling on same-sex marriage, forgetting perhaps that presidents don’t actually get to do that. Rick Perry has called for term limits for Supreme Court judges, although he hasn’t said whether he meant all of them, or just the liberal ones.

[Link: www.nytimes.com...]

606 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 2:57:26am

PolitiChicks! Victoria Jackson and friends chat and giggle about how conservatives are victims, how gay people shouldn’t be allowed to marry and how the Jews are taking over America. I’m sorry, I mean Muslims. (Benadryl recommended for nausea.)

What I learned from the Ill-Informed Housechicks of Red-State America:

* Muslim men can legally beat and behead their wives in the U.S., under the guise of freedom of religion.
* Snopes.com is owned by George Soros.
* Frank Gaffney is an expert on Islamisization of America.
* Bibles are banned in U.S. schools under all circumstances, but Qurans are welcome.
* Not all Muslims are terrorists, but all terrorists are Muslim.
* Eric Holder and Janet Napolitano have “dead eyes.”
* Gay marriage is about taking over the churches and abrogates the free-speech rights of conservatives.
* Still acting ditzy at 53 is kind of sad.

607 freetoken  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 2:57:50am

re: #605 000G

I didn't even touch on that in my latest Page. There's just too much in there. Those two hours will be quote-mined extensively. The far right is really beginning to lay their cards on the table.

608 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 2:58:54am

This is hilarious. In episode 2 (posted yesterday), the Politichicks are “just asking questions” about Obama’s birth certificate (!), although they are dead certain that he’s an un-American communist and that the Amazon Kindle is part of an Orwellian government thought-control plot. But nothing to say about Mitt and Newt and Herman? Amazing.

For me, the fun part is watching and trying to figure out which one is the least-informed and most egregious. Victoria the interrupting ditz is the obvious one, but I still go back and forth on Jennie and Ann-Marie. I love Jennie’s long awkward silences and her ill-advised attempts at commenting, but the brashness of Ann-Marie’s false analogies carries me away. I hope no one shows them a newspaper or explains what a fact is and ruins the whole thing.

609 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 2:59:17am

re: #607 freetoken

I didn't even touch on that in my latest Page. There's just too much in there. Those two hours will be quote-mined extensively. The far right is really beginning to lay their cards on the table.

That NY Times piece is from October… ;-)

610 freetoken  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 3:00:03am

re: #603 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

“Somebody is going to eat my pussy or I’m going to cut your fucking throat.”

I'm sure that can be used in an S&M scene, or maybe a thousand.

611 RogueOne  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 3:00:15am

Good Morning Ladies, Gentleman, and Degenerates.

612 freetoken  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 3:01:34am

re: #609 000G

That NY Times piece is from October… ;-)

Well, Saturday they were back at it, attacking judges and the whole judiciary. Santorum went on about eliminating the 9th circuit, etc.

613 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 3:02:14am

re: #612 freetoken

Well, Saturday they were back at it, attacking judges and the whole judiciary. Santorum went on about eliminating the 9th circuit, etc.

I know. Their stick is tired.

614 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 3:05:44am

25 Giant US Corporations That Paid Their CEOs More Than They Paid Uncle Same in Taxes

Image: 25GiantCorpsThatPaidTheirCEOsMoreThanTheyPaidUncleSam.gif

615 Obdicut  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 3:06:03am

re: #607 freetoken

I didn't even touch on that in my latest Page. There's just too much in there. Those two hours will be quote-mined extensively. The far right is really beginning to lay their cards on the table.

It's somewhat darkly funny seeing the last of my friends who are registered as Republicans react to the debate. They're not stupid, so they fully understand what it means, that the GOP really is the party of religious hootenanny now and that Romney and Huntsman's absence from this isn't because they're going to do anything to oppose this sort of bullshit but just sidestep it.

I really don't get how they didn't see this coming, but hey, we're all human. But looking back on it, the alliance between 'fiscal conservatives' and the religious social conservatives makes no sense whatsoever. Then again, many of the tenants of Mises-style fiscal conservatives closely resemble religious faith, especially in the similar to the Protestant views (as detailed by Weber) on predestination and grace demonstrated through success on earth.

616 Obdicut  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 3:08:13am

re: #588 jvic

It's not because Gore overstated his achievements-- he did so very mildly, to a degree that's completely accepted in politics-- but because the opposition needed to disbelieve it because to them innovation comes from private enterprise and they need to ignore the huge, fundamental role government plays in pushing technology forwards.

617 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 3:12:58am

Facebook tracks the online behavior of people who don't even have Facebook accounts, top FB execs admit

Facebook is defending the heavy tracking by pointing to protections against spammers and phishers. Constant monitoring and maintenance of Like buttons is another benefit, according to Facebook, though most users have no idea how thoroughly they are being tracked.

And do they care? The FTC is certainly digging further into this one, as are members of Congress. In fact, Facebook recently forged an agreement with federal regulators to notify users of any changes to user terms, though legislators may push for far greater levels of disclosure and privacy control.

618 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 3:19:53am

..,,g)Od even.n6,,..

619 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 3:22:27am
620 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 3:23:18am

re: #152 Dark_Falcon

Given their use of "shaming sessions" and their dogmatic refusal to see Stalin as he was, said American communists were still part of a very evil historical force. That they did some good should not be doubted, but I content it was outweighed by the harm they inflicted by their support of the USSR. That does not, however mean that most of them were evil. Only those who actually betrayed the United States merit that description (though some may well have been wicked in non-political ways, but I don't know enough about that to comment). So Dalton Trumbo and Paul Robeson were not evil men, but Alger Hiss and Julius Rosenberg were indeed evil.

The support of Stalin also was not limited to Communists. "Fellow traveler" useful idiots - left-wing intellectuals all around the world, like Leon Feuchtwanger, Bernard Shaw, Romain Rolland, Corliss Lamont (one of ACLU directors) had a love affair with Stalin. That's a shameful fact. However it would also be wrong to look at it from modern perspective, living in liberal democracies.

E.g. to take the aspect of race (one among many), the US was the country of racial segregation and oppression - i.e. a partially (and I will stress the word "partially") fascist state. For an average left-winger who lived in the US then and had only partial information about the Soviet Union, the land of alleged internationalism, allegedly free from any forms of racial oppression, and with minimal credible information about the actual repressions that were going on there, the sympathies both towards the USSR and Stalin can be understandable - just as someone living in certain parts of USSR in 1941 might be partially excused if they greeted Hitler's army as an army of "liberators" in the first days of the invasion. Of course, looking back now and having more information we have a bigger picture and can judge even segregation as it was practiced as a lesser evil than Stalin's crimes.

All that said, while I would excuse an average leftist, the prominent ones, who had more access to information, are harder to excuse. Corliss Lamont was penning defences of Stalin's staged trials, not taking into account even the Dewey commission findings. Paul Robeson knew first-hand from a meeting with Fefer what happened to his friends from the Jewish Antifascist Committee, yet when Stalin died, he stilled penned an ode to him. Such people cannot be excused.

621 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 3:27:27am

re: #620 Sergey Romanov

There were also professional trolls, like Peter Hacks:

Venus und Stalin

Sie, ihre Füße badend, trägt kein Kleid,
Das zu durchnässen sie vermeiden müßte.
Sie zeigt dem All in Sommerheiterkeit
Den Hintern und die weltberühmten Brüste.

Er, nebst noch einer Schreibkraft, prüft, erwägt,
Am Saum des Quellbachs hingestreckt, Berichte.
Damit sie Zephir nicht von dannen trägt,
Benutzt er Kieselsteine als Gewichte.

Gelegentlich läßt er das Auge ruhn,
Das väterliche, auf den prallen Lenden
Der Göttin, die, versunken in ihr Tun,
Ein Bein gewinkelt hebt mit beiden Händen.

Ein milder Glanz geht, eine stille Pracht
Unwiderstehlich aus von diesem Paar.
Die Liebe und die Sowjetmacht
Sind nur mitsammen darstellbar.

622 RogueOne  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 3:31:06am

OccupyMissoula - Police Dropping Off Drunken, Hostile People
[Link: www.plutocracyfiles.com...]

I had heard from several of the 24/7 occupiers at Occupy Missoula that the police have dropped off drunken, belligerent people at the occupation. I happened to be there when just that happened. A woman who was extremely drunk and was belligerent was dropped off by Officer Kasey Williams of the Missoula Police Department, Badge #348. She headed directly into the occupation and was belligerent and threatening. This very small occupation was forced to handle this on their own (which, by the way, they did very well).

As soon as I left I called Sgt. Jerry Odlin to speak to him about it. I informed him of the situation and informed him that the occupation has rules prohibiting intoxication. He denied that anything had been done to create disruption at the Occupy Missoula occupation.

623 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 3:33:15am

re: #601 000G

Do you consider the existence of the NK camps to be part of any "terror"?

There's an undercurrent in that question that I don't like.

Why wouldn't I?

624 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 3:40:44am

re: #623 Sergey Romanov

There's an undercurrent in that question that I don't like.

Why wouldn't I?

No reason that you wouldn't.

Don't know where the "lite" comes from. Is that a result of the thorough militarization?

625 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 3:43:20am

re: #624 000G

I haven't read about a Korean analog of 1937-1938. That means it's GULAG against Korean camps. Stalin still one big step ahead.

626 RogueOne  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 3:46:12am

90-year-old files federal lawsuit against police officer
[Link: www.myfoxlubbock.com...]

Officer Fish and others were responding to a burglary call at a West Lubbock apartment before dawn on September 25th.

The lawsuit claims police mistakenly thought Williams' window belonged to the apartment next door.

Williams contends he grabbed a shotgun, assuming his home was being invaded when he heard what turned out to be police breaking his window.

According to the lawsuit Officer Fish panicked at the sight of Williams holding a shotgun and fired at him.

Williams claims he returned fire as Officer Fish continued to shoot, one shot hit Williams in the throat.

Williams' lawsuit also claims the officer used excessive force during his arrest and at the hospital.

Last month grand jurors declined to indict Williams on a charge of aggravated assault on a public servant.

It's not enough that they broke into the wrong place and shot a 90 yr old man but then they tried to charge him with assault?

627 RogueOne  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 3:48:56am

DD, I take it you've seen this?

Mercedes-Benz manager from Germany arrested under Alabama’s strict new immigration law
[Link: www.washingtonpost.com...]

TUSCALOOSA, Ala. — A German manager with Mercedes-Benz is free after being arrested for not having a driver’s license with him under Alabama’s new law targeting illegal immigrants, authorities said Friday, in an otherwise routine case that drew the attention of Gov. Robert Bentley.

Welcome to Alabama fereigner, thanks for the jobs!

628 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 3:58:17am

re: #625 Sergey Romanov

I haven't read about a Korean analog of 1937-1938. That means it's GULAG against Korean camps. Stalin still one big step ahead.

I dunno. I think NK dynasty still being in power and language barriers are a big reason we still don't know a lot about NK.

Case in point: For the longest time in historiography, Great Terror was supposedly only about leadership purges...

Speaking of which…

Big step?

629 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 3:59:13am

re: #273 HappyWarrior

My favorite Churchill is his one on Clement Atlee who I would have voted for over him if I were a Briton in 45. "He has all the virtues I dislike and none of the vices I admire."

I wonder why Winny Spencer downdinged this innocent comment.

630 RogueOne  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 3:59:51am

I missed the cop thread yesterday so I'm doing some catching up....

Puppycide:

POLICE BRUTALITY: Family Says Police Killed Their Dogs and Slammed Grandmother to Ground
[Link: www.whotv.com...]

JEFFERSON IA—

Matthew Spaulding says he and his family were terrorized at their own home by police who slammed his grandmother to the ground and shot his dogs-- missing his head by less than an inch. "Told us to get on the ground. I got on the ground they put me in handcuffs," Spaulding recalls, "Then they threw my dad to the ground and my dog Sadie was right here sniffing my head. She was next to me. They shot her. The blood got on my face and then she took off running behind me and they shot her like three more times."
....
The Spauldings say after the first dog was killed, a second dog running away from the shots --- and away from police--- was also shot. "They weren't barking. They weren't attacking nobody." Matthew Spaulding says, "They didn't even give us a chance to put them in the kennel. We have a big kennel outside our house we could have put them in but they wouldn't give us a chance."
.....
Perry Police are not commenting. And they're refusing to turn over any paperwork or reports about the incident saying it's part of an ongoing investigation. But we were able to get copies of the search warrants. One warrant shows police were looking for any kind of legal or illegal drugs. The other shows police were looking for a stolen X-Box video game system. No drugs and no stolen games were found--and no one was arrested.

They went in with guns drawn looking for a freaking xbox.

631 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 4:00:26am

re: #628 000G

When there is evidence of an analog as specified above, I will revise my conclusion.

632 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 4:01:07am

Morning Honcos.

633 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 4:01:15am

re: #628 000G

Entire families, including grandchildren, are incarcerated for even the most bland political statements.

Forced abortions are carried out on pregnant women so that another generation of political dissidents will be “eradicated.”

Inmates are used as human guinea pigs for testing biological and chemical agents, according to both former inmates and U.S. officials.

[…]

NBC’s investigation revealed that North Korea’s State Security Agency maintains a dozen political prisons and about 30 forced labor and labor education camps, mainly in remote areas. The worst are in the country’s far Northeast. Some of them are gargantuan: At least two of the camps, Haengyong and Huaong, are larger in area than the District of Columbia, with Huaong being three times the size of the U.S. capital district.

Satellite photos provided by DigitalGlobe show several of the camps, including the notorious Haengyong, for the first time outside official circles. Plainly visible are acres upon acres of barracks, laid out in regimented military style. Surrounding each of them is 10-foot-high barbed-wire fencing along with land mines and man traps. There is even a battery of anti-aircraft guns to prevent a liberation by airborne troops.

634 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 4:02:09am

re: #628 000G

I dunno. I think NK dynasty still being in power and language barriers are a big reason we still don't know a lot about NK.

This, by the way, goes both ways. I'm sure there have also been exaggerations.

635 Decatur Deb  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 4:02:40am

re: #594 austin_blue

Don't know if you're up on your Hippie History. The Diggers in your poem inspired a group who called themselves Diggers in the 70s. Their shtick was acting a a counterculture Salvation Army, providing soup kitchens, shelter, and life support to movement types. (Much into geodesic domes, IIRC.) some of that spirit is likely behind the feeding of the OWSniks.

636 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 4:04:12am

re: #631 Sergey Romanov

When there is evidence of an analog as specified above, I will revise my conclusion.

It took Khrushchev twenty years to even admit to the purges of the Soviet elite to Soviet elite, behind closed doors. Nevermind the NKVD mass operations. Without fall of the Soviet Union and the opening of the archives, we still would largely rely on making sense of propaganda and counter-propaganda.

637 Decatur Deb  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 4:05:07am

re: #627 RogueOne

DD, I take it you've seen this?

Mercedes-Benz manager from Germany arrested under Alabama’s strict new immigration law
[Link: www.washingtonpost.com...]

Welcome to Alabama fereigner, thanks for the jobs!

We know how to handle those German-type foreigners--been doing it since those nice rocket guys got to Huntsville in the 1940s. We've got schnitzel restaurants and everything.

638 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 4:06:29am

re: #636 000G

After the fall of the USSR we learned about the more or less precise scale, not about operations as such, about which we knew from various sources. Are there sources indicating mass shooting operations in NK?

639 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 4:06:42am

re: #637 Decatur Deb

We know how to handle those German-type foreigners--been doing it since those nice rocket guys got to Huntsville in the 1940s. We've got schnitzel restaurants and everything.

Those stupid, swarthy Germans deserve all the racial profiling they have coming their way!!

//

640 Decatur Deb  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 4:13:46am

re: #639 000G

Those stupid, swarthy Germans deserve all the racial profiling they have coming their way!!

//

It has a noble history. Veronese was indicted by the Inquisition for painting “fools, drunken Germans, dwarfs, and other follies” in a religious scene.

[Link: idlespeculations-terryprest.blogspot.com...]

641 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 4:14:39am

Man, the St. Pete Times has a great series on Scientology. It would actually take me a couple of hours to go through the whole thing.

642 Decatur Deb  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 4:15:38am

re: #641 Cannadian Club Akbar

Man, the St. Pete Times has a great series on Scientology. It would actually take me a couple of hours to go through the whole thing.

Didn't they do a prize-winning story some time ago?

643 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 4:16:39am

re: #639 000G

His racist passages are so funny as to almost lose offensiveness ;)

644 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 4:18:39am

re: #642 Decatur Deb

Didn't they do a prize-winning story some time ago?

I believe they actually started this series in 2009. They got internal memos and all kinds of goodies.

645 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 4:20:52am

re: #638 Sergey Romanov

Scale is important, all battling Black Books aside.

I don't know of any mass shootings. But then again: "Hermit Kingdom".

From Wikipedia:

Kim's hold on power was rather shaky. To strengthen it, he claimed that the United States deliberately spread diseases among the North Korean population. While Moscow and Beijing later determined that these charges were false, they continued to help spread this rumour for many years to come. He also conducted North Korea's first large-scale purges in part to scare the people into accepting this false account. Unlike Stalin's Great Purge, these took place without even the formalities of a trial. Victims often simply disappeared into the growing network of prison camps.[11]

These and other events just reek too much of the circumstances of the Great Terror. I suspect most killings to have occured in the era of expropriation (1948–1957), with all the "open battle" against "class enemies" and "collective indoctrination campaigns" being direct politicidal acts.

646 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 4:23:20am

re: #645 000G

And again, I think Juche militarization (due to Cold War pressures) was a contributing factor in not too much incriminating information coming out of NK. Esprit de corps and all of that. If all of society is made part of the military structure, you need not pit armed forces against civil society so much anymore.

647 Decatur Deb  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 4:25:06am

re: #644 Cannadian Club Akbar

I believe they actually started this series in 2009. They got internal memos and all kinds of goodies.

Thought they got a Pulitzer or something close--punching above their weight.

648 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 4:26:34am

re: #645 000G

Scale is important, all battling Black Books aside.

Even Robert Conquest's seminal work was widely out of order (I think estimating six times the actual killings). Helped in ignoring it.

649 RogueOne  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 4:27:09am

NK is my argument against the fans of "realist" foreign policy. Allowing what has been going on in NK for 50 years is shameful.

650 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 4:27:44am

re: #645 000G

Scale is important, all battling Black Books aside.

Sure, because if Stalin shot not 700,000 in 37-38 but 70,000, that might have gone largely unnoticed. The larger the scale, the more evidence is gonna leak. I doubt that if there were such mass shootings in recent history, they would have gone unnoticed even with all the isolation. 40s-50s - maybe.

651 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 4:28:42am

re: #647 Decatur Deb

Thought they got a Pulitzer or something close--punching above their weight.

I would love to page this but there's no freaking way. It's to big. I wouldn't know where to start. Halfway down this link is parts 1-8.
[Link: www.tampabay.com...]

And I think they did win a Pulitzer. The Times is a good paper. And they have an incredible sports section. The are also the ones behind Politifact.com.

652 Decatur Deb  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 4:30:18am

re: #649 RogueOne

NK is my argument against the fans of "realist" foreign policy. Allowing what has been going on in NK for 50 years is shameful.

No shame--we did fight a war over it to the point of exhaustion. Some of us were itching to go nuke.

653 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 4:30:47am

re: #650 Sergey Romanov

40s-50s - maybe.

See my statement about "era of expropriation" above. Also keep in mind actual war time. High paranoia on part of authorities on both sides.

654 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 4:31:44am

re: #647 Decatur Deb

Thought they got a Pulitzer or something close--punching above their weight.

The St. Petersburg Times

1980 Pulitzer Prize winning series of articles about Scientology in the St. Pete Times by Charles Stafford and Bette Orsini
[Link: www.lermanet.com...]

Wow.

655 Decatur Deb  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 4:31:56am

re: #651 Cannadian Club Akbar

I would love to page this but there's no freaking way. It's to big. I wouldn't know where to start. Halfway down this link is parts 1-8.
[Link: www.tampabay.com...]

And I think they did win a Pulitzer. The Times is a good paper. And they have an incredible sports section. The are also the ones behind Politifact.com.

Very good. It's easy to overlook them as "just a suburban daily".

656 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 4:32:07am

re: #652 Decatur Deb

No shame--we did fight a war over it to the point of exhaustion. Some of us were itching to go nuke.

Wasn't the Korean War America's first anti-communist war, waged on ideological grounds?

657 RogueOne  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 4:32:36am

re: #652 Decatur Deb

No shame--we did fight a war over it to the point of exhaustion. Some of us were itching to go nuke.

I'm not calling for an invasion but we've (and by "we" I blame everybody not just the US) had decades worth of opportunity to force a change and we've taken the easy way out instead. The US spends almost $300b a year with China alone, if we actually wanted to do something about it we would.

658 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 4:34:22am

re: #650 Sergey Romanov

The larger the scale, the more evidence is gonna leak

Also having to keep in mind who can leak to whom to begin with. Russia had a long tradition of their population having contacts with populations of other countries. Korea not so much, quite the opposite.

659 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 4:35:26am

re: #656 000G

Wasn't the Korean War America's first anti-communist war, waged on ideological grounds?

Fun Sad fact: when reading the Madden Commission volumes I was struck by how they were eager to tie Katyn methods to what was allegedly happening with American POWs in Korea. They state in conclusion something to the effect of, Katyn and what Koreans do to our POWs is obviously the same grand commie plan.

660 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 4:36:23am

re: #658 000G

Also having to keep in mind who can leak to whom to begin with. Russia had a long tradition of their population having contacts with populations of other countries. Korea not so much, quite the opposite.

Sure, but rumors are gonna spread, defectors are gonna defect and so on.

661 Decatur Deb  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 4:37:35am

re: #656 000G

Wasn't the Korean War America's first anti-communist war, waged on ideological grounds?

Ideological grounds for many, or just geopolitics, smoothing out the rubble of the WWII endgame. (Information from the North is not as tightly controlled as sometimes thought. The armistice and preceding invasions caused a great intermingling of Northern and Southern extended families who 'kept in touch'. Our neighbors in Seoul were from the North, and did not suffer much disadvantage or ostracism--could marry well.)

662 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 4:41:26am

re: #658 000G

As for the language barrier - don't forget about SK.

663 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 4:43:57am

re: #660 Sergey Romanov

Sure, but rumors are gonna spread, defectors are gonna defect and so on.

But again, spread amongst whom?

Here is some literature of interest, regarding campaigns (little outdated, perhaps):

* Communism in Korea: The Movement (Vol. I), the Society (Vol. II) by Robert A. Scalapino; Chong Sik-Lee. Berkeley: University of California Press, 1972.
* Liquidation in North Korea by Kim Myong-sik: Institute for North Korea Studies, 1980.

664 RogueOne  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 4:44:09am

This is a couple of days old so I'm sure it's been discussed but I've been busy:

Police charge second man in Occupy hammer assault
[Link: www.pressherald.com...]

1:15 p.m.

Portland police say they have charged a man with assaulting another man with a hammer at the Occupy Maine encampment in Lincoln Park.

Police charged Chris Schisler who said recently he has been staying at the camp for several weeks, with assaulting another member of the camp at about 7 a.m.

The victim of the assault was taken to a local hospital with a head injury, police said.

Demonstrators said that the victim of the assault was banging on a drum to wake protesters to participate in a morning cleanup exercise, raking leaves so the city could collect them. The morning cleanup had been decided at the previous night's general assembly, though many people at the camp were not there.

When the man started drumming to wake the camp, Schisler allegedly told him to stop and when he didn't, smashed the drum head with the hammer, protesters said. In the ensuing confrontation, Schisler hit the man – a protester who has been active in park governance and maintenance – in the head.

Sounds perfectly justifiable.

665 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 4:45:16am

re: #663 000G

Population.

666 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 4:45:30am

SATAN!

667 Sheila Broflovski  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 4:46:36am

My son and daughter-in-law in Toronto have just had a BABY BOY!

668 RogueOne  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 4:46:58am

re: #666 Sergey Romanov

SATAN!

All hail the dark lord, Wonderboy. You should put those titles on your business cards, it's sure to impress.

669 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 4:47:18am

re: #667 Alouette

Aw! Congrats!

670 RogueOne  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 4:47:26am

re: #667 Alouette

My son and daughter-in-law in Toronto have just had a BABY BOY!

Didn't you just have another grandson recently?

671 Decatur Deb  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 4:47:58am

re: #667 Alouette

My son and daughter-in-law in Toronto have just had a BABY BOY!

I blame Canadian winters.

672 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 4:49:43am

EU bans claim that water can prevent dehydration
[Link: www.telegraph.co.uk...]
You do need more than water but thank God the gubment was there looking out for the people.
/

673 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 4:50:19am

re: #661 Decatur Deb

Information from the North is not as tightly controlled as sometimes thought. The armistice and preceding invasions caused a great intermingling of Northern and Southern extended families who 'kept in touch'. Our neighbors in Seoul were from the North, and did not suffer much disadvantage or ostracism--could marry well.

Another factor: Mutual aspirations for re-unification. May hinder efforts of getting skeletons out of the closet.

Oh well, maybe in a couple of decades.

674 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 4:50:57am

re: #670 RogueOne

Didn't you just have another grandson recently?

She has 134,098 kids and 1,495,492 grand kids.
/I think I'm close, though...

675 RogueOne  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 4:51:10am

re: #672 Cannadian Club Akbar

Everyone knows beer is the proper way to rehydrate.

676 Sheila Broflovski  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 4:51:20am

re: #670 RogueOne

Didn't you just have another grandson recently?

my son & DIL in Miami had a son in July.

677 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 4:52:22am

re: #672 Cannadian Club Akbar

I suspect it's just stupid propaganda hyped out of scale and significance as an excuse to utter this phrase:

“If ever there were an episode which demonstrates the folly of the great European project then this is it.”

678 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 4:53:27am

re: #659 Sergey Romanov

Mandchurian Candidate kind of paranoia/victimization dynamics. Fertile soil for JBS memes.

679 Darth Vader Gargoyle  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 4:53:47am

re: #664 RogueOne

This is a couple of days old so I'm sure it's been discussed but I've been busy:

Police charge second man in Occupy hammer assault
[Link: www.pressherald.com...]

Sounds perfectly justifiable.

HAMMER TIME!!!

Also, Good Morning Honcos!

680 Darth Vader Gargoyle  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 4:54:39am

re: #672 Cannadian Club Akbar

EU bans claim that water can prevent dehydration
[Link: www.telegraph.co.uk...]
You do need more than water but thank God the gubment was there looking out for the people.
/

Stupid should hurt (more).

681 Decatur Deb  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 4:55:12am

re: #673 000G

Another factor: Mutual aspirations for re-unification. May hinder efforts of getting skeletons out of the closet.

Oh well, maybe in a couple of decades.

Yes. They really see themselves as divided unfairly by historical accident. (Not strange that Sun Myung Moon runs the "Unification" church, though he uses it as a pan-religious metaphor.) The meme that keeps low-level anti-Americanism going in the SK universities is that we are preventing their natural reunification. (That, and the fact that set-piece rioting is more fun than Spring exams.)

682 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 4:55:21am

re: #677 Sergey Romanov

Telegraph is known for its conservative bent. Amidst all the Eurozone sovereign debt meltdown, of course also the entire UK loves to indulge in anti-EU rhetoric. It's par for the course for anyone who knows the intra-European derbies.

683 Obdicut  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 4:55:48am

re: #682 000G

Send Eddie Izzard over to sort them out.

684 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 4:56:49am

Derp moment of the day:

[Link: www.washingtonpost.com...]

The Australian government says it is investigating how a classified booklet detailing Barack Obama’s itinerary came to be lost in a gutter during the president’s visit last week.

Journalist Dylan Welch of The Age newspaper reported that he found the 120-page booklet on Thursday about 100 yards (meters) from Parliament House in Canberra, where Obama attended several functions during his 27-hour Australian visit.

685 Darth Vader Gargoyle  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 4:58:38am

re: #677 Sergey Romanov

I suspect it's just stupid propaganda hyped out of scale and significance as an excuse to utter this phrase:

“If ever there were an episode which demonstrates the folly of the great European project then this is it.”

I think if you want to pick a better example of the folly of the European project it wouldn't be too hard. I hear there are some debt issues with some members of the Eurozone...

686 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 4:59:16am

re: #681 Decatur Deb

Yes. They really see themselves as divided unfairly by historical accident. (Not strange that Sun Myung Moon runs the "Unification" church, though he uses it as a pan-religious metaphor.) The meme that keeps low-level anti-Americanism going in the SK universities is that we are preventing their natural reunification. (That, and the fact that set-piece rioting is more fun than Spring exams.)

Fun thought experiment in counterfactual history: If instead of the Bolsheviks winning and erecting the Soviet Union with Russia as center, what if the Russian Civil War had ended in two seperate Russian states? How would it have influenced the dynamics of defectors, propaganda & counter-propaganda, and the role of Russian nationalism?

687 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 4:59:45am

Yep.

[Link: www.guardian.co.uk...]

I was in a pub in Farringdon last night when a picture of the front page of The Express materialized on a TV screen, screaming semi-literately that, "EU SAYS WATER IS NOT HEALTHY." We swiftly neutralized the offending appliance, but stupidity is highly contagious, and this morning an newborn EU myth oozed from the presses, that the EU's European Food Standards Authority have ruled water to be unhealthy. Youcouldntmakeitup.

Read it. I think I'll make a page.

688 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 5:01:10am

re: #685 rwdflynavy

Which would only make such derpy news "items" even more stupid.

689 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 5:01:39am

The best Bullshit episode ever. EVAH!!! (this is just a clip)
BAN WATER!!!!

690 Decatur Deb  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 5:02:01am

re: #686 000G

Fun thought experiment in counterfactual history: If instead of the Bolsheviks winning and erecting the Soviet Union with Russia as center, what if the Russian Civil War had ended in two seperate Russian states? How would it have influenced the dynamics of defectors, propaganda & counter-propaganda, and the role of Russian nationalism?

That's way out of my league, but if there were still an Operation Barbarossa, it would have been very bad.

691 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 5:03:01am

re: #688 Sergey Romanov

Which would only make such derpy news "items" even more stupid.

It's because the UK is massively hypocritical in the whole situation. "Free rider" status on several issues while Germany & France push for more integration. Naturally invokes "all-out" hostility.

692 RogueOne  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 5:03:47am

re: #672 Cannadian Club Akbar

EU bans claim that water can prevent dehydration
[Link: www.telegraph.co.uk...]
You do need more than water but thank God the gubment was there looking out for the people.
/

This caught my attention...FTA:

EU regulations, which aim to uphold food standards across member states, are frequently criticised.

Rules banning bent bananas and curved cucumbers were scrapped in 2008 after causing international ridicule.

From the NY Times:
EU relents and lets a banana be a banana
[Link: www.nytimes.com...]

One such controversy revolved around the correct degree of bend in bananas - a type of fruit not covered by the Wednesday ruling.

In fact, there is no practical regulation on the issue. Commission Regulation (EC) 2257/94 says that bananas must be "free from malformation or abnormal curvature," though Class 1 bananas can have "slight defects of shape" and Class 2 bananas can have full "defects of shape."

By contrast, the curvature of cucumbers has been a preoccupation of European officials. Commission Regulation (EEC) No 1677/88 states that Class I and "Extra class" cucumbers are allowed a bend of 10 millimeters per 10 centimeters of length. Class II cucumbers can bend twice as much.

This is what happens when government has too much time on their hands.

693 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 5:03:55am

re: #689 Cannadian Club Akbar

Oops. The title has the word "hippies" in it. Guess I can expect one upding this morning from Killgore.
///

694 Decatur Deb  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 5:05:44am

Daylight come, and me wanna walk the dog. BBL.

695 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 5:05:50am

re: #692 RogueOne

In Berlin, there is a daily market mostly hosted by ethnic Turks were food is sold dirt cheap. Why? Because it's food not meeting EU standards. It's kinda like gambling: You can score a huge sack of perfectly fine produce for a buck or find out at home they are all rotten inside.

696 Darth Vader Gargoyle  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 5:05:59am

re: #693 Cannadian Club Akbar

Oops. The title has the word "hippies" in it. Guess I can expect one upding this morning from Killgore.
///

Only if "hippy" is followed by "punch".
//

697 RogueOne  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 5:07:03am

re: #689 Cannadian Club Akbar

The best Bullshit episode ever. EVAH!!! (this is just a clip)
BAN WATER!!!

[Video]

Lies! The best BS episode was the Circumcision episode. My wife walked in to find out what I was laughing so hard about and caught the part with the skinny, wrinkly, old guy swinging weights around from his schlong. "OMG,what the hell are you watching!?".

698 RogueOne  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 5:12:25am

re: #695 000G

In Berlin, there is a daily market mostly hosted by ethnic Turks were food is sold dirt cheap. Why? Because it's food not meeting EU standards. It's kinda like gambling: You can score a huge sack of perfectly fine produce for a buck or find out at home they are all rotten inside.

Ethnic places are the best places to pick up some stuff at good prices, like spices. Around here though (central IN outside Indy) there aren't many to choose from.

699 Sheila Broflovski  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 5:13:45am

re: #697 RogueOne

Lies! The best BS episode was the Circumcision episode. My wife walked in to find out what I was laughing so hard about and caught the part with the skinny, wrinkly, old guy swinging weights around from his schlong. "OMG,what the hell are you watching!?".

Wait, what?

Zedushka is grumbling that he doesn't want to go in for the Bris because my son's in-laws will be there.

700 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 5:14:39am

re: #698 RogueOne

Ethnic places are the best places to pick up some stuff at good prices, like spices. Around here though (central IN outside Indy) there aren't many to choose from.

We have a ton of small Mexican grocery stores around here. Most of them have steam tables in the back serving food. I don't know the language, but I know how to point at the food I want.

701 RogueOne  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 5:15:15am

re: #699 Alouette

Wait, what?

Zedushka is grumbling that he doesn't want to go in for the Bris because my son's in-laws will be there.

It was an old guy who found a way to "regrow" the lost chunk. Just thinking about it cracks me up. He was standing there in all his natural old wrinkled glory with a big smile on his face swinging weights around.

702 RogueOne  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 5:16:20am

re: #700 Cannadian Club Akbar

We have a ton of small Mexican grocery stores around here. Most of them have steam tables in the back serving food. I don't know the language, but I know how to point at the food I want.

Outside of Indy "mexican" is the only ethnic choice, not a lot of variety around here.

703 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 5:24:03am

re: #702 RogueOne

Outside of Indy "mexican" is the only ethnic choice, not a lot of variety around here.

My brother's GF is Peruvian. She made some tater salad once that was unfuckingbelieveable. I have a Peruvian restaurant about a half mile away, an Indian one about 3/4 of a mile and I am now working at a German one. The owners are way cool and I get to learn something new. The husband is a consultant for the DoD (from what I'm told) and the wife has the restaurants as a hobby of sorts. (they have 2)

704 RogueOne  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 5:32:33am

re: #703 Cannadian Club Akbar

I have a friend who works for an evil drug company that is about to go to Peru for a couple weeks on a humanitarian mission. They're very excited to try out some real Peruvian dishes.

There are plenty of decent ethnic places around Indy, lots and lots of Korean since there used to be an Army base in Indy. The one thing we are woefully short of are Jewish deli's. There's one local chain that is off the hook good but there are only a couple of stores so it's an hour drive for the best reuben in the country but it's worth it.

705 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 5:37:49am

re: #704 RogueOne

When I was 18 my GF was shipped to live with her sister in Miami. I went there to see her (have sex) and we went to a Cuban bakery (fucking awesome) and had lunch at a Jewish deli. The sammiches were about 8 inches high. The brownies were about 10 inches high. The restaurant had roped off sections when you walked in. 2 people or less, line one. 3-6 people, line two. 6 or more line three. Pickles on the tables. Miami is a culinary lovers wet dream.

706 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 5:48:17am

My friend went to the FSU-Virginia game last night. FSU lost. And they don't sell beer. D'oh!!

707 Darth Vader Gargoyle  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 5:50:34am

re: #706 Cannadian Club Akbar

My friend went to the FSU-Virginia game last night. FSU lost. And they don't sell beer. D'oh!!

A buddy called that a meteorite worthy event. Best thing that could happen is for both teams to be destroyed (he's a Hokie like me who had to live in Jax and be subjected to Florida college football).

708 RogueOne  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 5:57:10am

Michigan official invites whiskey maker to visit
[Link: www.newschannel5.com...]

LANSING, Mich. (AP) - A top Michigan Republican would like the makers of Jack Daniel's whiskey to consider moving north if they decide to leave Tennessee.

House Speaker Jase Bolger has invited distillery managers to visit Michigan. He says the state's business climate is improving, and he noted the state's large supply of fresh water.

A spokesman for Jack Daniel's parent company said Friday there are no plans to visit Michigan or other places that have made similar offers since a dispute about taxes sprouted in Tennessee.

Some Moore County citizens have proposed a "barrel tax" for the Lynchburg, Tenn., distillery that could raise up to $5 million a year. They're asking Tennessee lawmakers to authorize a local referendum.

709 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 5:58:17am

re: #707 rwdflynavy

A buddy called that a meteorite worthy event. Best thing that could happen is for both teams to be destroyed (he's a Hokie like me who had to live in Jax and be subjected to Florida college football).

LSU will be the champs unless they lay a big turd. I was talking with a neighbor last night about OSU losing. I was mentioning the Oregon Ducks. They lost. Nobody wants to be number 2.

710 RogueOne  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 6:01:19am

re: #709 Cannadian Club Akbar

LSU will be the champs unless they lay a big turd. I was talking with a neighbor last night about OSU losing. I was mentioning the Oregon Ducks. They lost. Nobody wants to be number 2.

Sounds like Al-queda.

711 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 6:01:56am

re: #708 RogueOne

So, tax Jack Daniels and make them move their operation, possibly. Good fucking plan. Wonder what their budget looks like in Lynchburg.

712 Obdicut  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 6:03:50am

re: #711 Cannadian Club Akbar

Well, a race to the bottom is also a sucky plan, but that appears to be what we're going with.

I've started to get a lot of dark enjoyment out of the fact that the corporations who've moved their operations to the developing world often also promote AGW denial, and the developing world is going to get whomped by AGW which will disrupt if not outright shut down those overseas plants. We're seeing it in Thailand right now.

Great job thinking that one through, geniuses.

713 Darth Vader Gargoyle  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 6:09:58am

re: #708 RogueOne

Michigan official invites whiskey maker to visit
[Link: www.newschannel5.com...]

Tennessee: "Now hold still Jack, this will only hurt for a minute"...Hey where'd you go? Please come back!!

Brilliant.

714 RogueOne  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 6:10:18am

Sadly, this won't hurt him one bit:

Newt Gingrich Once Proposed Mandatory Death for Drug Traffickers, Mass Executions
[Link: www.talkleft.com...]

..."The first time we execute 27 or 30 or 35 people at one time, and they go around Colombia and France and Thailand and Mexico, and they say, 'Hi, would you like to carry some drugs into the U.S.?' the price of carrying drugs will have gone up dramatically."
......
Mr. Gingrich said his proposal, which he said he would make in a bill to be filed next month, would impose a mandatory death penalty on people convicted of bringing illegal drugs into the United States.
....
I have made the decision that I love our children enough that we will kill you if you do this."

If it's for the children, it has to be a good idea!

715 Darth Vader Gargoyle  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 6:11:12am

re: #714 RogueOne

Sadly, this won't hurt him one bit:

Newt Gingrich Once Proposed Mandatory Death for Drug Traffickers, Mass Executions
[Link: www.talkleft.com...]

If it's for the children, it has to be a good idea!

Next up: Jaywalkers!!! Who's with me!!!
//

716 RogueOne  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 6:18:31am

$116K is pretty good money to pepper spray student hippies:

Lt. John A. Pike
[Link: www.sacbee.com...]

717 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 6:20:42am

re: #712 Obdicut

As a Republican, I don't actually have a problem with raising taxes, user fees, etc. My problem comes with knee jerk reactionaries who scream TAX TAX TAX. You wanna tax smokers because of health care cost? OK. But make sure that is where the money is going. Don't come up with some stoopid pet project to deviate newly allotted funds. This is where I have a problem with people who want to raise taxes and just give it to the politicians. We need to see where it is being spent. And most people don't do that. They are busy watching AI or DWTS or whatever. Politicians think they just have some big freaking kitty to pull money from.
If a tax is so Goddamned important that we need it NOW NOW NOW, don't target one group.

718 RogueOne  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 6:25:12am

County compiles list of nearly 100 problems since Occupy Santa Cruz moved in
[Link: www.mercurynews.com...]

SANTA CRUZ - County officials this week released a list of 93 complaints of disruptive and illegal behavior near the county's main offices and courthouse, adjacent to the Occupy Santa Cruz camp.
....
At least one incident on the county list wasn't noted by the Sheriff's Office: the discovery of an estimated 200 pounds of human feces near the county Veterans Memorial Building, just across the Water Street bridge from the camp.

The county called in a hazardous materials team to clean up the mess, and installed a security fence around the building, which is closed for renovations. There is no evidence that linked the excrement to the camp.

I'm sure it's pure coincidence. The fact that it was mostly made up of Kale and Tofu has nothing to do with it!

719 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 6:25:22am

re: #717 Cannadian Club Akbar

Don't come up with some stoopid pet project to deviate newly allotted funds. This is where I have a problem with people who want to raise taxes and just give it to the politicians. We need to see where it is being spent. And most people don't do that. They are busy watching AI or DWTS or whatever.

Good point and a great argument to help elect competent Democrats.

720 RogueOne  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 6:26:05am

re: #718 RogueOne

Damnit, missed the obvious line...

I've got 99 problems but poop ain't one of them.

721 Kronocide  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 6:28:11am

After reading Strommen's article, I spent some time over at GoV reading Bodissey's writings.

Social miscreant with better writing skills.

722 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 6:28:43am

re: #719 000G

Good point and a great argument to help elect competent Democrats.

How about just competent people?

723 Obdicut  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 6:29:38am

re: #717 Cannadian Club Akbar

Well hell, I want 0% corporate taxes and just to fix on personal income taxes, because corporations are always going to be too skilled and spend too much money on tax avoidance and lobbying.

724 RogueOne  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 6:31:44am

re: #719 000G

Good point and a great argument to help elect competent Democrats.

If we're going to vote for mythical creatures I'd like the opportunity to vote for a mermaid.

725 RogueOne  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 6:34:38am

OCCUPY WALL STREET vs THE EMPIRE

726 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 6:36:15am

re: #723 Obdicut

Well hell, I want 0% corporate taxes and just to fix on personal income taxes, because corporations are always going to be too skilled and spend too much money on tax avoidance and lobbying.

I have heard (but haven't looked into it) that when taxes are raised, loopholes are in there to help companies and corporations to not pay taxes. And people in general don't understand taxing corporations or companies and move the number to coincide with inflation. You make $249,999? Tax bracket. You make $250,000 two years later, another.

727 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 6:36:33am

re: #724 RogueOne

If we're going to vote for mythical creatures I'd like the opportunity to vote for a mermaid.

What's your thoughts on Elizabeth Warren?

728 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 6:37:28am

re: #722 Cannadian Club Akbar

How about just competent people?

If there are any left in the GOP that would stand a chance in any election, let me know.

729 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 6:37:53am

re: #726 Cannadian Club Akbar

I think the word I missed was "progressive".

730 RogueOne  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 6:39:34am

re: #728 000G

If there are any left in the GOP that would stand a chance in any election, let me know.

We'll place our bets once they pick a challenger. In '10 I wanted to do a bracket like the NCAA tourney but no one would do it for me. Maybe someone will step up next year.

731 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 6:39:50am

re: #728 000G

If there are any left in the GOP that would stand a chance in any election, let me know.

I would be an awesome politician, but I drink, smoke, swear and have a past that the cable news idiots would fill about 23 hours a day reporting on. :)

732 RogueOne  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 6:40:33am

re: #727 000G

What's your thoughts on Elizabeth Warren?

I think she has a great shot to knock off Brown.

733 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 6:41:13am

re: #732 RogueOne

I think she has a great shot to knock off Brown.

Do you think she's competent to effectively tackle the issues that matter?

734 Decatur Deb  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 6:41:24am

re: #727 000G

What's your thoughts on Elizabeth Warren?

She's going to break my heart, I just know it.

735 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 6:44:25am

re: #734 Decatur Deb

She's going to break my heart, I just know it.

In German, there is a very old slogan aimed at the center-left Social Democrats:

Wer hat uns verraten? Sozialdemokraten!

736 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 6:47:04am

re: #733 000G

Do you think she's competent to effectively tackle the issues that matter?

She is one of one hundred and one of 535. Good intentions or legislation is one thing. Getting laws and bills passed are another.

737 Kronocide  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 6:47:35am

re: #727 000G

What's your thoughts on Elizabeth Warren?

I'm very interested in learning more about her policy positions, the same with Sheldon Whitehouse.

Though I'm over 4,000 miles away, and they are in state politics, if they go national I'll already be studied in their positions and character and could potentially support them.

738 Mocking Jay  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 6:49:43am

re: #724 RogueOne

If we're going to vote for mythical creatures I'd like the opportunity to vote for a mermaid.

As a Democrat I have to admit that that was a good one.

739 funky chicken  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 6:50:26am

Gawd, Newt Gingrich is the gift that keeps on giving, isn't he?

Revolting in body and spirit, and he's seriously the GOP frontrunner? I bet he wins "religious" South Carolina.

740 Decatur Deb  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 6:53:38am

re: #735 000G

In German, there is a very old slogan aimed at the center-left Social Democrats:

verraten=betrayed?

741 RogueOne  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 6:54:13am

re: #733 000G

Do you think she's competent to effectively tackle the issues that matter?

She's great tv and she's definitely smart enough but I'm not sure I am in 100% agreement with her solutions. When she said "People ought to be able to read their credit card and mortgage contracts and know the deal" I agreed with her even though I didn't necessarily agree with the premise.

OTOH, I thought her statement about "nobody gets rich on their own" was not only a strawman argument but way off base. She's in primary mode so we'll see if she swings back to the middle.

742 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 6:55:09am

re: #739 funky chicken

Gawd, Newt Gingrich is the gift that keeps on giving, isn't he?

Revolting in body and spirit, and he's seriously the GOP frontrunner? I bet he wins "religious" South Carolina.

This week. Tune in next week. (fwiw, I have a long standing hatred of polls)

743 RogueOne  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 6:56:37am

re: #739 funky chicken

Gawd, Newt Gingrich is the gift that keeps on giving, isn't he?

Revolting in body and spirit, and he's seriously the GOP frontrunner? I bet he wins "religious" South Carolina.

Cain wins SC, I think. I think Gingrich might have a shot in NH, they did nominate Buchanan after all.

744 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 6:56:48am

re: #741 RogueOne

She's great tv and she's definitely smart enough but I'm not sure I am in 100% agreement with her solutions. When she said "People ought to be able to read their credit card and mortgage contracts and know the deal" I agreed with her even though I didn't necessarily agree with the premise.

OTOH, I thought her statement about "nobody gets rich on their own" was not only a strawman argument but way off base. She's in primary mode so we'll see if she swings back to the middle.

This was idiotic. Sorry to people who think that the gubment has to do everything for everyone.

745 Obdicut  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 6:57:28am

re: #741 RogueOne

She's great tv and she's definitely smart enough but I'm not sure I am in 100% agreement with her solutions.

Well, given that you think businesses should be able to refuse to do business with black people, that's hardly surprising, is it?

746 Obdicut  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 6:58:12am

re: #744 Cannadian Club Akbar

This was idiotic. Sorry to people who think that the gubment has to do everything for everyone.

Nobody does get rich on their own, though. What's wrong with that as a statement?

747 RogueOne  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 6:59:03am

re: #744 Cannadian Club Akbar

If that's her only misstep Brown is going to have a hard time getting reelected. She's much better than Martha Coakley, who is a loathsome human being.

748 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 7:00:21am

re: #740 Decatur Deb

verraten=betrayed?

Yup. Another common monicker for the main party (SPD) is also "Verräterpartei" ("Party of Betrayers").

The sentiment originated in WWI, with the SPD spliting over the core of it supporting authorizing going into debt further to finance the German war machine (see USPD). The actual phrase was a child of the November Revolution of 1918/19, though, with the SPD government crushing several Soviet Republics in Germany through the help of right-wing paramilitary free corps. It originated with the Communists (a lot of them former USPD members).

749 Mocking Jay  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 7:01:05am

re: #744 Cannadian Club Akbar

This was idiotic. Sorry to people who think that the gubment has to do everything for everyone.

Way to miss the point. What you should have gotten out of that was that the government has done something for everyone.

750 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 7:01:31am

re: #746 Obdicut

Nobody does get rich on their own, though. What's wrong with that as a statement?

Well, learning a skill and starting a business doesn't require the gubment. I haven't worked for a major corporation in 16 years. The people I have worked for who have worked 18 hour days to make a business profitable didn't rely on the gubment.

751 Kronocide  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 7:03:32am

Greg Sargent at the Washington Post

You built a factory out there? Good for you. But I want to be clear: you moved your goods to market on the roads the rest of us paid for; you hired workers the rest of us paid to educate; you were safe in your factory because of police forces and fire forces that the rest of us paid for. You didn’t have to worry that marauding bands would come and seize everything at your factory, and hire someone to protect against this, because of the work the rest of us did.

Now look, you built a factory and it turned into something terrific, or a great idea? God bless. Keep a big hunk of it. But part of the underlying social contract is you take a hunk of that and pay forward for the next kid who comes along.

I don't see a strawman or a pushing of government to do everything. It's a commentary on social contract. A very compelling commentary.

752 Obdicut  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 7:04:08am

re: #750 Cannadian Club Akbar

Well, learning a skill and starting a business doesn't require the gubment.

Not many businesses are founded in anarchy. But even leaving that aside, she didn't say "Nobody gets rich without the government".

The people I have worked for who have worked 18 hour days to make a business profitable didn't rely on the gubment.

Really? They didn't rely on their being enforceable contract law?

753 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 7:05:36am

re: #752 Obdicut

Not many businesses are founded in anarchy. But even leaving that aside, she didn't say "Nobody gets rich without the government".

Really? They didn't rely on their being enforceable contract law?

Those being?

754 Mocking Jay  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 7:06:17am

re: #752 Obdicut

Really? They didn't rely on their being enforceable contract law?

No. They were so successful that they were able to hire their own strongmen to enforce their contracts.

755 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 7:07:27am

re: #754 JasonA

No. They were so successful that they were able to hire their own strongmen to enforce their contracts.

Heh. It really does seem like some people mistake Shadowrun for a utopian literature.

756 RogueOne  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 7:07:41am

re: #745 Obdicut

Well, given that you think businesses should be able to refuse to do business with black people, that's hardly surprising, is it?

Not quite. I think anyone should be able to refuse to do business with anyone regardless of race/color/sex/religion/political identity/their favorite movies/hair color/number of fingers and toes/height/weight/musical choices/hair length/fan club memberships/everything else you can imagine. When it comes to the enumerated right of "freedom of association" I'm an absolutest.

Wouldn't you like to know that the corner store owner you're giving your money to would rather not have you in his store because you're a jew? Like the guy in TX who didn't want to give firearms courses to dems & muslims, does the fact that he backed down mean that we should go ahead and give him business? I prefer to know that the people I do business with are worthy of my money.

757 Obdicut  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 7:08:11am

re: #753 Cannadian Club Akbar

Those being?

I'm sorry, I don't really get your question. Businesses depend on the idea that if they make an agreement with someone, and that person violates the agreement, the government will enforce the agreement or penalize the person violating it. Likewise, businesses depend on there being a civil society with simple protection from theft, burglary, violence, etc. That may be the most basic form of government that not even the most harrrgganah libertarian denies; the prevention of the use of force against each other.

758 Mocking Jay  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 7:09:00am

re: #755 000G

Heh. It really does seem like some people mistake Shadowrun for a utopian literature.

La Casa Nostra is a model for a libertarian businessman.

759 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 7:09:04am

re: #757 Obdicut

This is Glibertarian country: The Free Market suffices to punish offenders.

760 Obdicut  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 7:09:10am

re: #756 RogueOne

Not quite. I think anyone should be able to refuse to do business with anyone regardless of race/color/sex/religion/political identity/their favorite movies/hair color/number of fingers and toes/height/weight/musical choices/hair length/fan club memberships/everything else you can imagine.

Then how is it 'not quite'? The statement that you think that businesses should be able to refuse to do business with black people is true.

And for some reason, you continually ignore how this actually worked out for us when it was allowed.

761 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 7:09:14am

re: #754 JasonA

No. They were so successful that they were able to hire their own strongmen to enforce their contracts.

Or, you could pay for the services rendered to you. Then render a service to others and make a profit.

762 Mocking Jay  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 7:10:49am

re: #761 Cannadian Club Akbar

Or, you could pay for the services rendered to you. Then render a service to others and make a profit.

And what do you do when someone fails to pay you for said services?

763 Obdicut  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 7:11:07am

re: #761 Cannadian Club Akbar

Or, you could pay for the services rendered to you. Then render a service to others and make a profit.

How is that 'or'?

764 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 7:12:48am

re: #762 JasonA

And what do you do when someone fails to pay you for said services?

You shun them with righteousness and trust the good Lord that their bad behavior will make them go out of business eventually!

765 Mocking Jay  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 7:13:35am

re: #764 000G

You shun them with righteousness and trust the good Lord that their bad behavior will make them go out of business eventually!

And that's how black people were able to sit at the Woolworth's lunch counter...

766 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 7:13:44am

re: #762 JasonA

And what do you do when someone fails to pay you for said services?

Well, the people I have worked for are small restaurants. You pay before you leave. And if you don't, the cops get called. And no, the cops didn't help start the small business. And it has never happened where I have worked. And to go further, dine and dash is legally called "defrauding an inn keeper".

767 Obdicut  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 7:13:50am

re: #761 Cannadian Club Akbar

One of the things I do in my spare time is work with the Freelancer's Union, a non-traditional union of freelance workers, small business owners, etc. I am one myself; i have my own S corporation. I am my only employee. I generally have only two or three clients at a time, doing large projects.

If, at any given moment, one of those clients simply refused to pay me for work I'd done, I'd be seriously hosed. Sure, I could 'punish' them by refusing to do more work with them, but that's not going to solve my immediate problem of being hosed. And they can lie and say that my work was substandard or something and other people may believe them, so it may not negatively affect their reputation at all.

This is why having enforceable contracts is a good, and necessary, thing for businesses.

768 Obdicut  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 7:14:15am

re: #766 Cannadian Club Akbar

Well, the people I have worked for are small restaurants. You pay before you leave. And if you don't, the cops get called. And no, the cops didn't help start the small business.

But the cops are the government, and it's what the restaurant depends on to make sure people pay.

769 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 7:15:42am

re: #767 Obdicut

My BIL does remodeling. He got fucked on a $30K job. I know what you're saying but not all businesses work the same. I'll pull from my personal experience.

770 Obdicut  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 7:17:14am

re: #769 Cannadian Club Akbar

My BIL does remodeling. He got fucked on a $30K job. I know what you're saying but not all businesses work the same. I'll pull from my personal experience.

But in your personal experience you're talking about calling the cops, which means asking the government to come help enforce a 'contract'.

So I'm not getting your objection.

771 RogueOne  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 7:17:16am

re: #759 000G

This is Glibertarian country: The Free Market suffices to punish offenders.

Not every situation needs to be solved with the involvement of the feds.

McDonald’s, Target drop Minn.-based egg supplier after video appears to show cruel treatment
[Link: www.washingtonpost.com...]

It's a good thing government stepped in to put a stop to this practice....

Again, it's like the firearms instructor in TX. Neither of those instances required even a smidge of federal involvement. People complain about all the cash flowing from lobbyists while steadfastly refusing to see the obvious way to put a stop to a lot of it.

772 Decatur Deb  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 7:17:22am

re: #748 000G

Yup. Another common monicker for the main party (SPD) is also "Verräterpartei" ("Party of Betrayers").

The sentiment originated in WWI, with the SPD spliting over the core of it supporting authorizing going into debt fo further finance the German war machine (see USPD). The actual phrase was a child of the November Revolution of 1918/19, though, with the SPD government crushing several Soviet Republics in Germany through the help of right-wing paramilitary free corps. It originated with the Communists (a lot of them former USPD members).

(Sorry--long phone call.)

Sounds like the events that turned Arthur Koestler, unless that was later. Been a while--will check.

773 Mocking Jay  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 7:17:59am

re: #769 Cannadian Club Akbar

My BIL does remodeling. He got fucked on a $30K job. I know what you're saying but not all businesses work the same. I'll pull from my personal experience.

So who's making sure the meat you guys put on people's plates isn't tainted?

774 RogueOne  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 7:18:38am

re: #760 Obdicut

Then how is it 'not quite'? The statement that you think that businesses should be able to refuse to do business with black people is true.

And for some reason, you continually ignore how this actually worked out for us when it was allowed.

because you insist on focusing on only one portion of the argument, race, in an attempt to demonize.

775 Obdicut  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 7:18:41am

re: #771 RogueOne

Not every situation needs to be solved with the involvement of the feds.
.

Yeah, but black people not being given equal treatment by businesses did.

Demonstrably.

776 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 7:18:59am

re: #768 Obdicut

But the cops are the government, and it's what the restaurant depends on to make sure people pay.

The cops didn't start a restaurant and work 18 hours a day to make it profitable. They are why the restaurants pay taxes, sorry. I worked for 5 years at a place and never had to involve the cops. They are a service of the community. They didn't do shit to help make a place profitable.

777 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 7:19:10am

re: #766 Cannadian Club Akbar

And no, the cops didn't help start the small business.

You don't think the mere existence of (reliable) cops encourages businesses to open?

778 RogueOne  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 7:20:11am

re: #767 Obdicut

This is why having enforceable contracts is a good, and necessary, thing for businesses.

We agree there.

779 Mocking Jay  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 7:20:15am

re: #776 Cannadian Club Akbar

The cops didn't start a restaurant and work 18 hours a day to make it profitable. They are why the restaurants pay taxes, sorry. I worked for 5 years at a place and never had to involve the cops. They are a service of the community. They didn't do shit to help make a place profitable.

Look up the word deterrent. I'll wait...

780 Obdicut  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 7:20:28am

re: #774 RogueOne

because you insist on focusing on only one portion of the argument, race, in an attempt to demonize.

Demonize? Would you rather I talk about businesses not doing business with gay people, unmarried women not being allowed to attend college, religiously observant Jews not being promoted? I'm happy to focus on any of the groups that were formerly shat on if you'd like.

The actual, real-world way that the whole free-association thing worked out is that minorities got discriminated against, and it didn't get better on its own. This is not an abstract thing.

781 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 7:21:12am

re: #771 RogueOne

Not every situation needs to be solved with the involvement of the feds.

Which is a strawman that nobody has argued.

782 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 7:21:25am

re: #779 JasonA

Look up the word deterrent. I'll wait...

right.

783 Obdicut  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 7:21:40am

re: #776 Cannadian Club Akbar

The cops didn't start a restaurant and work 18 hours a day to make it profitable. They are why the restaurants pay taxes, sorry.

EXACTLY. They are why restaurants pay taxes, because without them, the restaurant would have great difficulty in operating. They need them, and a civil society with enforceable contracts, or else they have to hire mercenaries and then everything's all Rwanda.

How are we disagreeing? You agree that the restaurant needs the government in the form of cops in order to do business, and so do I.

784 Decatur Deb  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 7:22:05am

re: #767 Obdicut

Got a site for FU (terrible acronym, by the way)? I've been trying to get my kid to start a codemonkey's guild.

785 RogueOne  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 7:22:30am

re: #773 JasonA

So who's making sure the meat you guys put on people's plates isn't tainted?

Is anyone proposing dumping the FDA? And what's a more powerful incentive, being fined for not following regs or getting people sick? Chi-Chi's ring a bell?

786 Obdicut  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 7:23:34am

re: #784 Decatur Deb

Got a site for FU (terrible acronym, by the way)? I've been trying to get my kid to start a codemonkey's guild.

Sure.

[Link: www.freelancersunion.org...]

The health care benefits are only available in couple of states, but there's other resources there as well. Where does he/she live at?

787 Mocking Jay  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 7:24:11am

re: #785 RogueOne

Is anyone proposing dumping the FDA? And what's a more powerful incentive, being fined for not following regs or getting people sick? Chi-Chi's ring a bell?

I'm sorry, I thought we were talking about things we need the government for.

788 BongCrodny  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 7:25:12am

re: #773 JasonA

So who's making sure the meat you guys put on people's plates isn't tainted?

Not meat, but:

Peanut Corporation of America

Without the FDA would we have ever heard of this?

789 Mocking Jay  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 7:26:03am

re: #787 JasonA

I'm sorry, I thought we were talking about things we need the government for.

At least as it pertains to CCA's line of work.

790 RogueOne  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 7:26:09am

re: #775 Obdicut

Yeah, but black people not being given equal treatment by businesses did.

Demonstrably.

I agree but government involvement (Jim Crow laws) were put in place to keep businesses from doing the right thing. I don't think it's "glibterian" to see that in some situations governments do more harm than good.

791 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 7:27:33am

re: #783 Obdicut

EXACTLY. They are why restaurants pay taxes, because without them, the restaurant would have great difficulty in operating. They need them, and a civil society with enforceable contracts, or else they have to hire mercenaries and then everything's all Rwanda.

How are we disagreeing? You agree that the restaurant needs the government in the form of cops in order to do business, and so do I.

We're not. But people are acting like the gubment is needed for every step of the way, to lead us by the hand to be a business. It simply isn't true. Yes, we have laws but until they are broken, everything is fine and there is no need for intrusion. But if the police or whatever is needed, that is why taxes are paid. I know we need oversight and so on. But that was never my point.

792 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 7:27:51am

re: #773 JasonA

So who's making sure the meat you guys put on people's plates isn't tainted?

Competition!


[Link: www.foxnews.com...]
793 Decatur Deb  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 7:28:06am

re: #786 Obdicut

Sure.

[Link: www.freelancersunion.org...]

The health care benefits are only available in couple of states, but there's other resources there as well. Where does he/she live at?

Florida. He's with a monster multinational now, but his field is highly unstable. He and his friends have often been hosed by under-managed start-ups.

794 RogueOne  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 7:28:32am

re: #781 000G

Which is a strawman that nobody has argued.

I apologize. Maybe you can point me in the direction where there are arguments that less government is the way to go.

795 Obdicut  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 7:29:07am

re: #790 RogueOne

I agree but government involvement (Jim Crow laws) were put in place to keep businesses from doing the right thing.

How massively revisionist. I'm sorry, I can't take that sort of bullshit seriously.

Yeah, it was just because of the mean government that businesses didn't "do the right thing". It's not like businesses fought against integration on their own, and refused to integrate when there weren't laws keeping them from hiring and serving black people.

Fucking pathetic, Rogue.

796 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 7:30:12am

YOU EFFING PEOPLE ARE DRIVING ME TO DRINK!!! thank you.
/

797 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 7:30:52am

re: #791 Cannadian Club Akbar

people are acting like the gubment is needed for every step of the way, to lead us by the hand to be a business.

Which people? Warren doesn't.

798 Obdicut  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 7:31:18am

re: #791 Cannadian Club Akbar

We're not. But people are acting like the gubment is needed for every step of the way, to lead us by the hand to be a business.

Who is?

799 RogueOne  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 7:31:33am

re: #795 Obdicut

How massively revisionist. I'm sorry, I can't take that sort of bullshit seriously.

Yeah, it was just because of the mean government that businesses didn't "do the right thing". It's not like businesses fought against integration on their own, and refused to integrate when there weren't laws keeping them from hiring and serving black people.

Fucking pathetic, Rogue.

Revisionist? If businesses were unwilling to deal with black people then what was the necessity of the Jim Crow laws? The segregation was government enforced, there isn't any way around that.

800 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 7:31:46am

re: #794 RogueOne

I apologize. Maybe you can point me in the direction where there are arguments that less government is the way to go.

Why would I? I think purely quantity-style arguments of the "more/less government is the answer" variety have no merit whatsoever.

801 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 7:33:32am

re: #791 Cannadian Club Akbar

Yes, we have laws but until they are broken, everything is fine and there is no need for intrusion.

Without government there would be no laws to begin with. And without the option of enforcing and executing them, there would be no point in having them.

802 RogueOne  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 7:34:53am

re: #800 000G

Why would I? I think purely quantity-style arguments of the "more/less government is the answer" variety have no merit whatsoever.

or maybe it's because no one outside of libertarian circles is making that argument. Dems/Repubs may disagree on the scope in certain aspects but the one point they both agree on is the need for more government involvement.

803 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 7:36:48am

re: #802 RogueOne

It's still a false dichotomy. The question should not be "more or less government?" but "what kind of government?".

804 Obdicut  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 7:37:25am

re: #799 RogueOne

Revisionist? If businesses were unwilling to deal with black people then what was the necessity of the Jim Crow laws?

Many Jim Crow laws had to do with voting, property ownership, marriage, and access to public institutions. The laws mandating private segregation as well were a subset of Jim Crow that you're presenting as the totality.

How do you explain that when Jim Crow laws were struck down by laws mandating equal treatment were not yet in place, there wasn't a wellspring of integrated businesses? Why did it take rulings on equal treatment?

Jim Crow laws were put in place with the support of the community. They were voted on by legislators elected by that community. They had the support of those communities. They were not handed down from on-high by 'the government'.

805 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 7:38:40am

re: #798 Obdicut

Who is?

I think RogueOne and Cannadian Club Akbar are, judging from their #741 and #744.

What is that even called, when you falsely claim that your opponent is arguing some strawman and thereby set up a strawman yourself?

806 Obdicut  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 7:39:37am

re: #799 RogueOne

The segregation was government enforced, there isn't any way around that.

The segregation was governmentally and privately enforced. So yes, there is a way around that.

And it still continues to be a problem to do this day. Assholes still try to refuse to do business with groups they don't like, and still have to have their bigoted hands forced to do so.

But oh no do you really want to do business with a racist? If he owns the only gas station in town, then yes I fucking do. more, I just don't want to have to care if some fucking idiot is a racist or not. It shouldn't be something I even have to think about as I walk into a store, whether he's going to start screaming "Kike" at me and refuse to sell me a drink when I'm thirsty.

Fucking common sense.

807 RogueOne  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 7:41:59am

re: #803 000G

It's still a false dichotomy. The question should not be "more or less government?" but "what kind of government?".

When you put a bunch of people in a room to decide on what regulations are necessary you're going to have a lot of people tossing money at them in order to protect their own interests. Right now we have a federal political class that has a built-in financial interest to regulate everything in sight even when they don't know wtf they're doing. If you want to take money out of politics, take politicians out of the daily lives of the citizenry.

Now, no where in there did I say we need to dump all their responsibilities nor am I naive enough to believe the feds will start reigning in their power. Some of us prefer to go down kicking and screaming///

808 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 7:42:17am

OK. I guess I have not stated my position well enough. Some people think the gubment is responsible for everything that is right with the world and lean on it more than others. I understand having the FDA, etc, but the gubment doesn't necessarily have a hand in every persons success. Are there parts that do? Yes. But to equate success with "it couldn't be done without them" is bullshit. We have OSHA. And this is a good thing. But for people to give credit to the gubment belittles people who actually work their asses off to enrich their selves or their lives.

809 Obdicut  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 7:45:59am

re: #808 Cannadian Club Akbar

OK. I guess I have not stated my position well enough. Some people think the gubment is responsible for everything that is right with the world and lean on it more than others.

Who are these people, though? I've never met one.

But for people to give credit to the gubment belittles people who actually work their asses off to enrich their selves or their lives

To give any credit at all to them? Doesn't not giving them any credit belittle the jobs they do? Doesn't that belittle cops and building inspectors and the guys who make sure devices are FCC compliant and can't bollox out entire neighborhoods? Or the scientists who work their asses off to identify where the latest E.Coli outbreak is coming from so people don't completely fucking panic and can be confident that the outbreak will be traced to its source and contained?

810 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 7:46:48am

re: #807 RogueOne

If you want to take money out of politics, take politicians out of the daily lives of the citizenry.

Or you could try to get the money out of politics, for instance by curtailing highly concentrated monied speech by corporate persons through focusing on passing a constitutional amendment to repeal Citizens United.

Or you could focus on electing people who are very aware of the problems with lobbying, have a grip on the actual issues and are loyal servants to their constituents instead of just incompetent anti-government fire-eaters.

Because not every problem with government requries that government gets sabotaged.

811 RogueOne  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 7:49:34am

re: #804 Obdicut

....

Jim Crow laws were put in place with the support of the community. They were voted on by legislators elected by that community. They had the support of those communities. They were not handed down from on-high by 'the government'.

You're still missing the "why" they felt it necessary to regulate business dealings with blacks. If businesses were unwilling to deal with minorities there wouldn't have been a need for a law. Government enforced segregation kept minorities as second class citizens for decades longer than it would have taken if they had stayed out of it in the first place. There are always going to be bigot business people but most of them go into business because they care about the color of your money, not your skin.

Secondly, after some Jim Crow laws were repealed people were still wary of dealing with blacks because the governments they funded refused to protect them.

In both cases the government was at fault. First by establishing segregation laws and secondly by not providing a basic service and a reason for their founding.

812 Obdicut  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 7:53:13am

re: #811 RogueOne

You're still missing the "why" they felt it necessary to regulate business dealings with blacks. If businesses were unwilling to deal with minorities there wouldn't have been a need for a law.

Some businesses were. A minority. Especially businesses that were themselves owned by minorities.

Government enforced segregation kept minorities as second class citizens for decades longer than it would have taken if they had stayed out of it in the first place.

Who is 'they'? The people enacting these laws were elected by the people in the community to make those laws. So how exactly does it work in your mind that the racist assholes who elected racist assholes would not have been racist assholes if the racist assholes they'd elected hadn't made these laws?

Secondly, after some Jim Crow laws were repealed people were still wary of dealing with blacks because the governments they funded refused to protect them.

Huh?

In both cases the government was at fault.

And who elected that government? Random people from elsewhere, or the asshole racists in the communities themselves?

Seriously, your thinking on this can't be this shallow, can it?

813 RogueOne  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 7:54:27am

re: #810 000G

Or you could try to get the money out of politics, for instance by curtailing highly concentrated monied speech by corporate persons through focusing on passing a constitutional amendment to repeal Citizens United.

Or you could focus on electing people who are very aware of the problems with lobbying, have a grip on the actual issues and are loyal servants to their constituents instead of just incompetent anti-government fire-eaters.

Because not every problem with government requries that government gets sabotaged.

Back to the mythical creatures.//

I don't think repealing the 1st amendment is the way to go. Citizens United didn't have anything to do with donations, it had to do with advertising. There are still plenty of bans on direct donations by corporations.

814 allegro  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 7:55:47am

re: #808 Cannadian Club Akbar

OK. I guess I have not stated my position well enough. Some people think the gubment is responsible for everything that is right with the world and lean on it more than others. I understand having the FDA, etc, but the gubment doesn't necessarily have a hand in every persons success. Are there parts that do? Yes. But to equate success with "it couldn't be done without them" is bullshit. We have OSHA. And this is a good thing. But for people to give credit to the gubment belittles people who actually work their asses off to enrich their selves or their lives.

Who is doing/thinking that?

815 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 7:55:55am

re: #811 RogueOne

Government enforced segregation kept minorities as second class citizens for decades longer than it would have taken if they had stayed out of it in the first place.

That doesn't make any sense whatsoever.

* "Second-class citizen" is a political status, neccessarily enforced by some government – be it an elected official one or just merely a de facto one (the latter role is easily assumed by businesses).
* Likewise, the equal status of all citizens is a legal concept that requires protection by government. That some governments fail to protect is not an argument against government per se.

Furthermore, the question of access to government is crucial: Why do you think so much of the Civil Rights Movement had to do with voting, voting rights, voter registration drives, etc?

816 funky chicken  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 7:56:02am

re: #750 Cannadian Club Akbar

Well, learning a skill and starting a business doesn't require the gubment. I haven't worked for a major corporation in 16 years. The people I have worked for who have worked 18 hour days to make a business profitable didn't rely on the gubment.

No public school? No use of public roads? No use of public railroads? No reliance upon public airways, telephone lines, or other infrastructure?

Employees 100% educated and trained by the employer, or was the "gubmint" somehow involved in delivering a trainable person?

817 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 7:56:33am

re: #813 RogueOne

Citizens United didn't have anything to do with donations, it had to do with advertising.

You keep telling yourself that.

818 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 7:57:52am

re: #806 Obdicut

The segregation was governmentally and privately enforced. So yes, there is a way around that.

And it still continues to be a problem to do this day. Assholes still try to refuse to do business with groups they don't like, and still have to have their bigoted hands forced to do so.

But oh no do you really want to do business with a racist? If he owns the only gas station in town, then yes I fucking do. more, I just don't want to have to care if some fucking idiot is a racist or not. It shouldn't be something I even have to think about as I walk into a store, whether he's going to start screaming "Kike" at me and refuse to sell me a drink when I'm thirsty.

Fucking common sense.

Not to mention something like a hospital turning away an accident victim due to them being black. Something like that would never happen.
///

819 funky chicken  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 7:59:30am

re: #815 000G

That doesn't make any sense whatsoever.

* "Second-class citizen" is a political status, neccessarily enforced by some government – be it an elected official one or just merely a de facto one (the latter role is easily assumed by businesses).
* Likewise, the equal status of all citizens is a legal concept that requires protection by government. That some governments fail to protect is not an argument against government per se.

Furthermore, the question of access to government is crucial: Why do you think so much of the Civil Rights Movement had to do with voting, voting rights, voter registration drives, etc?

Don't forget access to education.

820 allegro  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 8:00:11am

re: #816 funky chicken

No public school? No use of public roads? No use of public railroads? No reliance upon public airways, telephone lines, or other infrastructure?

Employees 100% educated and trained by the employer, or was the "gubmint" somehow involved in delivering a trainable person?

This.

821 Renaissance_Man  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 8:01:06am

re: #791 Cannadian Club Akbar

We're not. But people are acting like the gubment is needed for every step of the way, to lead us by the hand to be a business. It simply isn't true. Yes, we have laws but until they are broken, everything is fine and there is no need for intrusion. But if the police or whatever is needed, that is why taxes are paid. I know we need oversight and so on. But that was never my point.

Which people? Imaginary liberals?

Clearly your point wasn't that Elizabeth Warren was acting like that, since that wasn't what she said. Which is why you agreed with her instead of calling it idiotic, because you concur that people don't get rich on their own, but rather in the context of a society of laws.

822 RogueOne  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 8:01:20am

re: #812 Obdicut

Personal attacks aren't all that attractive.

Jim Crow laws are a great example of government overreach. A lot of voters would love government to be involved in all sorts of places where they don't belong, that doesn't make it right. Why is it you refuse to admit that had government not been involved things might have actually worked better and quicker than it did? You know those laws were bad, you know the evil intent behind the laws yet you still refuse to lay the blame where it belongs. That's more than shallow thinking, that's selective outrage.

823 RogueOne  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 8:02:56am

re: #815 000G

That doesn't make any sense whatsoever.

* "Second-class citizen" is a political status, neccessarily enforced by some government – be it an elected official one or just merely a de facto one (the latter role is easily assumed by businesses).
* Likewise, the equal status of all citizens is a legal concept that requires protection by government. That some governments fail to protect is not an argument against government per se.

Furthermore, the question of access to government is crucial: Why do you think so much of the Civil Rights Movement had to do with voting, voting rights, voter registration drives, etc?

I'm in complete agreement with the last part. The government has zero business treating anyone differently because of any reason they might feel is valid but that's different than the right of ordinary citizens.

824 Obdicut  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 8:03:47am

re: #822 RogueOne

Personal attacks aren't all that attractive.

Jim Crow laws are a great example of government overreach.

Overreach is a weird way of putting it. They're a good example of government being used to be assholes.

Why is it you refuse to admit that had government not been involved things might have actually worked better and quicker than it did?

Because the people in these towns and cities voted for these racist policies. Why the fuck do you think they'd somehow act better on their own?

You know those laws were bad, you know the evil intent behind the laws yet you still refuse to lay the blame where it belongs.

I blame the asshole racists who voted for asshole racists who enacted the asshole racists laws.

You blame 'the government'.

825 jaunte  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 8:04:27am

re: #822 RogueOne

I think you may be drawing too bright a line between 'government' and 'citizens' in terms of things like Jim Crow laws. Yes the local government enforced them, but they were the will of a lot of the voters who could and did also set up an informal system of prejudice and reinforced it with government action.

826 allegro  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 8:04:40am

re: #822 RogueOne

I think the problem here is that your posts indicate a belief that the "government" is some outside entity that, I dunno, magically happens without the input of those good people who would do right if only the "government" would allow them to.

827 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 8:04:44am

re: #822 RogueOne

Government is inevitable.

What the Civil Rights Movement wanted was a fair, representative and truly democratic government. The local Jim Crow governments weren't that. But the Civil Rights Movement wanted to change that instead of just abolishing government. Do you honestly think the Civil Rights Movement's approach was misguided?

Again: The question should not be "more or less government?" but "what kind of government?".

828 RogueOne  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 8:05:26am

re: #817 000G

You keep telling yourself that.

Why tell myself that when I can read it for myself:

[Link: www.law.cornell.edu...]

As amended by &sect203 of the Bipartisan Campaign Reform Act of 2002 (BCRA), federal law prohibits corporations and unions from using their general treasury funds to make independent expenditures for speech that is an “electioneering communication” or for speech that expressly advocates the election or defeat of a candidate. 2 U. S. C. &sect441b. An electioneering communication is “any broadcast, cable, or satellite communication” that “refers to a clearly identified candidate for Federal office” and is made within 30 days of a primary election, &sect434(f)(3)(A), and that is “publicly distributed,” 11 CFR &sect100.29(a)(2), which in “the case of a candidate for nomination for President … means” that the communication “[c]an be received by 50,000 or more persons in a State where a primary election … is being held within 30 days,” &sect100.29(b)(3)(ii). Corporations and unions may establish a political action committee (PAC) for express advocacy or electioneering communications purposes. 2 U. S. C. &sect441b(b)(2). In McConnell v. Federal Election Comm’n , 540 U. S. 93 , this Court upheld limits on electioneering communications in a facial challenge, relying on the holding in Austin v. Michigan Chamber of Commerce , 494 U. S. 652 , that political speech may be banned based on the speaker’s corporate identity.

829 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 8:06:16am

re: #823 RogueOne

The government has zero business treating anyone differently because of any reason they might feel is valid but that's different than the right of ordinary citizens.

I don't even know what this is supposed to mean.

830 RogueOne  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 8:06:53am

re: #825 jaunte

I think you may be drawing too bright a line between 'government' and 'citizens' in terms of things like Jim Crow laws. Yes the local government enforced them, but they were the will of a lot of the voters who could and did also set up an informal system of prejudice and reinforced it with government action.

Like I said, there are plenty of areas that the populace would love the government to get involved, say like gay marriage, that doesn't mean that voters have the right to enlist the governments to do their dirty work.

831 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 8:08:08am

re: #828 RogueOne

Why tell myself that when I can read it for myself:

I don't think you can.

832 jaunte  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 8:08:18am

re: #830 RogueOne

that doesn't mean that voters have the right to enlist the governments to do their dirty work

I'm not sure what you mean.

833 funky chicken  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 8:09:11am

re: #750 Cannadian Club Akbar

Well, learning a skill and starting a business doesn't require the gubment. I haven't worked for a major corporation in 16 years. The people I have worked for who have worked 18 hour days to make a business profitable didn't rely on the gubment.

What about the military? Right now we are spending huge amounts of money on anti-piracy stuff around Africa. Wal-Mart and the oil companies aren't paying for it. The US government is.

834 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 8:09:38am

re: #832 jaunte

I'm not sure what you mean.

I don't think he knows either.

The glibertarians who think they are for gay marriage but want the government to get out of marriage are as logical as the Tea Partiers who say "Government, get your hands out of my MediCare!"

835 RogueOne  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 8:09:46am

re: #829 000G

I don't even know what this is supposed to mean.

You don't see the difference between government treating citizens differently based on skin color as opposed to a private citizen? The government is restricted to dealing with people regardless of race/sex/etc and their impartiality is important. I don't believe the same thing should apply to individuals.

836 RogueOne  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 8:10:13am

re: #831 000G

I don't think you can.

Then possibly you can point out to me where it has anything to do with direct political donations.

837 Renaissance_Man  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 8:10:23am

re: #829 000G

I don't even know what this is supposed to mean.

It means that when citizens elect a government in order to do something evil, it proves that government is bad. When citizens elect a government to do something right and put a stop to evil practices, that's infringing on the rights of citizens, and it proves that government is bad.

838 McSpiff  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 8:10:52am

re: #835 RogueOne

You don't see the difference between government treating citizens differently based on skin color as opposed to a private citizen? The government is restricted to dealing with people regardless of race/sex/etc and their impartiality is important. I don't believe the same thing should apply to individuals.

Soooo you just don't believe in the whole civil rights thing then, that's nice...

839 funky chicken  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 8:11:52am

re: #837 Renaissance_Man

It means that when citizens elect a government in order to do something evil, it proves that government is bad. When citizens elect a government to do something right and put a stop to evil practices, that's infringing on the rights of citizens, and it proves that government is bad.

Huh. Coffee time. : -)

840 RogueOne  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 8:12:30am

re: #832 jaunte

I'm not sure what you mean.

A majority of voters (probably) would love the feds to say only straight people can marry. The decision of who you want to marry shouldn't even be a consideration of theirs.

841 miclaine  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 8:13:48am

Love the post! Some excellent sarc and could not stop laughing at the references to the Right Honourable Lord.

Re:#8 - Charles, I too am glad that you dumped the haters. You have done a real admirable job with this blog.

842 RogueOne  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 8:15:31am

re: #838 McSpiff

Sooo you just don't believe in the whole civil rights thing then, that's nice...

No, that's not quite the point. I don't think it should be within the governments purview to say people do not have the right be ignorant or that they have to be nice to each other.

843 jaunte  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 8:15:39am

re: #840 RogueOne

So, protecting minority rights is an important job for government.

844 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 8:15:49am

re: #835 RogueOne

You don't see the difference between government treating citizens differently based on skin color as opposed to a private citizen? The government is restricted to dealing with people regardless of race/sex/etc and their impartiality is important. I don't believe the same thing should apply to individuals.

There is no "citizen" status without government, RogueOne.

Oh, now I get you seem to say that individuals should be allowed to discriminate, as opposed to governments. Sorry, but that is not what you said. You said:

The government has zero business treating anyone differently because of any reason they might feel is valid but that's different than the right of ordinary citizens.

So you don't think it is important that businesses would be prohibited from discriminating against, say, blacks. Because it couldn't possibly have any political impact, or what?

Btw, I very well believe that government may treat people differently. Criminals, for instance.

845 RogueOne  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 8:16:35am

Ok. I have to get to work. We'll play "beat up on the libertarian" later///

Enjoy the day folks, be nice to each other. The government demands it!//

846 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 8:17:28am

re: #825 jaunte

I think this is interesting. The phrase "Jim Crow" is an absolute pejorative, yet it is commonly used to refer to the terrible segregation policies of the past.

Can't we just say "Segregation Laws"? Much clearer for folks to understand anyway.

(Wiki) The phrase "Jim Crow Law" first appeared in 1904 according to the Dictionary of American English, although there is some evidence of earlier usage. The origin of the phrase "Jim Crow" has often been attributed to "Jump Jim Crow", a song-and-dance caricature of negroes performed by white actor Thomas D. Rice in blackface, which first surfaced in 1832 and was used to satirize Andrew Jackson's populist policies. As a result of Rice's fame, "Jim Crow" had become a pejorative expression meaning "Negro" by 1838 and when the laws of racial segregation – directed against blacks – were enacted at the end of the nineteenth century they became known as Jim Crow laws.

847 RogueOne  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 8:17:53am

re: #844 000G

There is no "citizen" status without government, RogueOne.

Oh, now I get you seem to say that individuals should be allowed to discriminate, as opposed to governments. Sorry, but that is not what you said. You said:

So you don't think it is important that businesses would be prohibited from discriminating against, say, blacks. Because it couldn't possibly have any political impact, or what?

Btw, I very well believe that government may treat people differently. Criminals, for instance.

I really have to run but I couldn't pass this up....Based on their race/religion/sex? That doesn't sound very progressive.

848 allegro  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 8:18:28am

re: #842 RogueOne

No, that's not quite the point. I don't think it should be within the governments purview to say people do not have the right be ignorant or that they have to be nice to each other.

WTF? The laws protect (some) people from being wrongfully discriminated against. If this hadn't been a real problem - it still is - no laws would have been necessary. The laws didn't come first.

849 Renaissance_Man  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 8:18:53am

re: #838 McSpiff

Sooo you just don't believe in the whole civil rights thing then, that's nice...

Apparently, though it has never happened in recorded human history, we are asked to believe that humans will stop discriminating against each other, exploiting each other, and treat each other in an enlightened fashion much, much faster without a society of laws.

Libertarianism is fascinating.

850 jaunte  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 8:19:09am

re: #846 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Sure, I have no particular preference.

851 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 8:19:37am

re: #836 RogueOne

Then possibly you can point out to me where it has anything to do with direct political donations.

Funny that all of a sudden you know smuggled the word "direct" in there.

This is no way to have an honest debate.

But here, have some meat:

[Link: www.usatoday.com...]
[Link: www.nytimes.com...]

852 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 8:21:20am

re: #847 RogueOne

I really have to run but I couldn't pass this up...Based on their race/religion/sex? That doesn't sound very progressive.

No, based on their having comitted crimes, being dangerous, etc. The government is justified in curtailing their rights.

853 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 8:22:00am

re: #850 jaunte

Oh! That wasn't pointed at you in particular. It was conversational.

I meant a collective "we". It's a common phrase, but I don't understand why. I use it too, but didn't know where the origin of the phrase was from. Just looked it up, because, frankly? It looked fishy.

It was an 1800's version of the "N" word that is used frequently today. I just don't get it.

854 Targetpractice  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 8:23:38am

re: #830 RogueOne

Like I said, there are plenty of areas that the populace would love the government to get involved, say like gay marriage, that doesn't mean that voters have the right to enlist the governments to do their dirty work.

Uhm, it sort of does in representative democracies, which we just happen to live in. The government is composed of persons elected to represent a portion of the populace, whether it be a town, a state district, or a whole state. If a bunch of racist assholes elect a racist asshole, then the laws he/she proposes will likely be...wait for it...racist.

855 jaunte  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 8:27:57am

re: #853 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

It may be that the phrase is used instead of 'segregation laws' because it covers a specific time and place, and both the formal and informal system of social control used to legitimize racial segregation.

856 darthstar  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 8:44:39am

Mornin' everyone...I slept in today! That's a rare thing for me to do.

How's things?

857 jaunte  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 8:45:12am

re: #856 darthstar

I think everyone's gone out for coffee.

858 Lidane  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 8:45:19am

For those who think that the Occupy protesters don't have any discipline, check this out. Hundreds of UC Davis students gathered in silent protest as the university chancellor walks to her car:

NPR has more about this story here:

[Link: www.npr.org...]

859 darthstar  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 8:46:46am

re: #857 jaunte

I think everyone's gone out for coffee.

Damn...and I wanted one!

860 Obdicut  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 8:48:05am

re: #857 jaunte

I think everyone's gone out for coffee.

I'm deep-cleaning my apartment prior to the arrival of my parents for thanksgiving, and I just turned the shower on when I thought the tub was connected and blasted myself with ice-water.

861 Daniel Ballard  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 8:49:00am

re: #856 darthstar
Greetings from Los Angeles. Snow approaches our local mountains, a hard cold wind blows in from the east and the storm approaches from the northwest. Could get a touch spectacular.


Image: Storm-1.jpg

862 darthstar  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 8:49:54am

re: #858 Lidane

For those who think that the Occupy protesters don't have any discipline, check this out. Hundreds of UC Davis students gathered in silent protest as the university chancellor walks to her car:

[Video]NPR has more about this story here:

[Link: www.npr.org...]

That video is going viral. What's scarier than an angry horde releasing said energy by shouting at you? An angry horde silently watching you.

Of course, "angry horde" is just how the students will get spun by the media in the next day or two...but we can't have them upsetting the narrative of stabbing, raping, rioting hooligans...this latest behavior is just evidence of how they can't be trusted with an education. (//partial)

863 sattv4u2  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 8:50:45am

re: #856 darthstar

Mornin' everyone...I slept in today! That's a rare thing for me to do.

How's things?

Slept in what?

864 jaunte  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 8:50:52am

re: #862 darthstar

The protestors are quiet.... too quiet...

865 Decatur Deb  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 8:52:54am

re: #864 jaunte

The protestors are quiet... too quiet...

The drums have stopped...

866 Kronocide  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 8:53:29am

I just finished up a set of plan markups. Came back for the Rogue Beatdown right as it ended.

Then it's Breaky with Wifey on Alii, and some golf this afternoon.

867 jaunte  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 8:54:12am

re: #865 Decatur Deb

Watching the video Lidane linked, I was thinking 'someone must be sitting on the drummers.'

868 William Barnett-Lewis  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 8:56:45am

re: #858 Lidane

For those who think that the Occupy protesters don't have any discipline, check this out. Hundreds of UC Davis students gathered in silent protest as the university chancellor walks to her car:

[Video]NPR has more about this story here:

[Link: www.npr.org...]

I had just come here to post about that.

869 Decatur Deb  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 8:57:09am

re: #867 jaunte

Watching the video Lidane linked, I was thinking 'someone must be sitting on the drummers.'

I was just riffing off old safari/wild west movies.

870 sattv4u2  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 8:57:27am

re: #866 BigPapa

Came back for the Rogue Beatdown

{sigh}

871 darthstar  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 8:57:51am

re: #861 Rightwingconspirator

Greetings from Los Angeles. Snow approaches our local mountains, a hard cold wind blows in from the east and the storm approaches from the northwest. Could get a touch spectacular.

Image: Storm-1.jpg

What the hell do you need snow for down there? Send that storm up here where it belongs.

We've had a bit of weather ourselves...storms coming from the north it seems...I saw three jet-skis down at the docks when I was walking the dogs yesterday...that told me Mavericks was surfable...so I rode my bike to the top of the point later in the day to take a look...missed the big swells of the morning but saw a couple of guys still out there playing in 12 ft breakers...

872 Talking Point Detective  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 8:57:58am

re: #864 jaunte

The protestors are quiet... too quiet...

Reminds me of that scene from "The Birds".

873 allegro  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 8:59:13am

re: #858 Lidane

For those who think that the Occupy protesters don't have any discipline, check this out. Hundreds of UC Davis students gathered in silent protest as the university chancellor walks to her car:

[Video]NPR has more about this story here:

[Link: www.npr.org...]

That is some powerful stuff. The perfect response.

874 sattv4u2  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 9:01:40am

re: #869 Decatur Deb

I was just riffing off old safari/wild west movies.

re: #869 Decatur Deb

I was just riffing off old safari/wild west movies.

I liked the movie (Will Smith/ Kevin Kline ,, great chemistry) but the TV show was pretty good also (considering that it was produced in 1965)

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

875 allegro  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 9:01:50am

re: #872 Talking Point Detective

Reminds me of that scene from "The Birds".

Yes! That's exactly it. It has a very creepy, ominous overtone that is very powerful.

876 darthstar  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 9:02:45am

re: #863 sattv4u2

Slept in what?

Bed...but there was a ruckus around 3:30...I heard Bflat getting into a fight with another cat outside, and one of the dogs, Fozzie, hitting the dog door to go investigate...the cat-screams were so loud I flicked on the outside lights and ran out to shout for my cat - and it worked - I distracted them long enough for the other cat to escape and Bflat to come running back into the house. Cat was soaking wet (it had been raining) and pretty intense.

Afterward, as I was settling back into bed my wife calmly asked me, "Did you just turn on the outside lights and run around the house butt naked?"

Oops.

877 Kronocide  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 9:03:13am

All those students standing in silent protest as the chancellor walked to the car was very powerful.

878 sattv4u2  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 9:04:28am

re: #876 darthstar

wife calmly asked me, "Did you just turn on the outside lights and run around the house butt naked?"

Your response should have been "Yes, only because I missed doing that at midnight, as per usual!"

879 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 9:06:07am

There is an ad on my screen for "Dorian Gray Capital Investments"

I'm not quite getting the "Dorian Gray" reference.

Everything deteriorates in the end? Not good for an investment firm--no?

How is everyone?

OH BTW, it's my Birthday! Yeah, Yeah!

880 darthstar  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 9:07:00am

re: #878 sattv4u2

wife calmly asked me, "Did you just turn on the outside lights and run around the house butt naked?"

Your response should have been "Yes, only because I missed doing that at midnight, as per usual!"

She knows I run around naked...at our previous house our neighbors were set back far enough that I would walk her to her car in the morning in the nude...we're now in a more traditional neighborhood with more open views to each others' yards.

881 sattv4u2  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 9:07:13am

re: #879 ggt

There is an ad on my screen for "Dorian Gray Capital Investments"

I'm not quite getting the "Dorian Gray" reference.

Everything deteriorates in the end? Not good for an investment firm--no?

How is everyone?

OH BTW, it's my Birthday! Yeah, Yeah!

HAPPY HAPPY HAPPY

(oh,, and btw ,, yesterday was mine,,,, and sadly, I'll bet I've had many more than you)

882 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 9:08:08am

re: #881 sattv4u2

HAPPY HAPPY HAPPY

(oh,, and btw ,, yesterday was mine,,, and sadly, I'll bet I've had many more than you)

Happy Belated Birthday!

I'm normally don't post my birthday because I'm horrible at recognizing others, but I feel special about it today.

How was your Day?

883 sattv4u2  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 9:08:35am

re: #880 darthstar

She knows I run around naked...at our previous house our neighbors were set back far enough that I would walk her to her car in the morning in the nude...we're now in a more traditional neighborhood with more open views to each others' yards.

Ah HAH
So ,, you're in one of those "clothing optional" community, huh?

884 jaunte  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 9:09:01am

re: #879 ggt

Happy Birthday!

A 'Dorian Gray' brand name seems like a red flag for something that looks good superficially but has some severe hidden problems.

885 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 9:09:24am

re: #881 sattv4u2

HAPPY HAPPY HAPPY

(oh,, and btw ,, yesterday was mine,,, and sadly, I'll bet I've had many more than you)

Lots of November b-days in Lizardia. Happy days to both of ya.

886 funky chicken  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 9:09:40am

re: #879 ggt

There is an ad on my screen for "Dorian Gray Capital Investments"

I'm not quite getting the "Dorian Gray" reference.

Everything deteriorates in the end? Not good for an investment firm--no?

How is everyone?

OH BTW, it's my Birthday! Yeah, Yeah!

Well, better than MF.

887 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 9:09:45am

Old people move to Florida.

888 sattv4u2  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 9:10:06am

re: #882 ggt

Happy Belated Birthday!

I'm normally don't post my birthday because I'm horrible at recognizing others, but I feel special about it today.

How was your Day?

Cost me over $300!!

Been on my son for weeks to go get (much needed) new sneakers, jeans and school pants

He decided he wanted to go yesterday!

889 sattv4u2  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 9:10:36am

re: #885 Stanley Sea

Lots of November b-days in Lizardia. Happy days to both of ya.

Thanks

890 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 9:11:05am

re: #888 sattv4u2

Cost me over $300!!

Been on my son for weeks to go get (much needed) new sneakers, jeans and school pants

He decided he wanted to go yesterday!

Well, you got your wish --he got new sneakers!

LOL

891 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 9:11:21am

re: #885 Stanley Sea

Lots of November b-days in Lizardia. Happy days to both of ya.

Thanks!

892 darthstar  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 9:11:40am

re: #883 sattv4u2

Ah HAH
So ,, you're in one of those "clothing optional" community, huh?

It wasn't clothing optional until I moved in.

893 sattv4u2  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 9:12:19am

re: #890 ggt

Well, you got your wish --he got new sneakers!

LOL

Actually, got a nice present the day before

He got his official letter of acceptance to Auburn!!

VERY proud of him

894 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 9:12:50am

re: #892 darthstar

It wasn't clothing optional until I moved in.

Meds are wonderful thing . .

:0

895 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 9:13:00am

re: #893 sattv4u2

Actually, got a nice present the day before

He got his official letter of acceptance to Auburn!!

VERY proud of him

VERY VERY KEWL!

896 Targetpractice  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 9:13:23am

re: #879 ggt

There is an ad on my screen for "Dorian Gray Capital Investments"

I'm not quite getting the "Dorian Gray" reference.

Everything deteriorates in the end? Not good for an investment firm--no?

How is everyone?

OH BTW, it's my Birthday! Yeah, Yeah!

Happy birthday to ya. So, how many centuries does that make now?

///I kid, I kid.

897 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 9:14:02am

re: #896 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

Happy birthday to ya. So, how many centuries does that make now?

///I kid, I kid.

Less than one. YET, my back tells me it's many more.

:)

898 darthstar  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 9:14:23am

re: #879 ggt

There is an ad on my screen for "Dorian Gray Capital Investments"

I'm not quite getting the "Dorian Gray" reference.

Everything deteriorates in the end? Not good for an investment firm--no?

How is everyone?

OH BTW, it's my Birthday! Yeah, Yeah!

Heh...Dorian Gray plot:

A corrupt young man somehow keeps his youthful beauty eternally, but a special painting gradually reveals his inner ugliness to all.

Sounds like a reputable firm to me.//
Happy Birthday!

899 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 9:15:44am

re: #898 darthstar

Heh...Dorian Gray plot:

Sounds like a reputable firm to me.//
Happy Birthday!

Thanks!

At the end of the book, he and the portrait change places and he ages very quickly and dies. IIRC

Sounds like Enron.

900 sattv4u2  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 9:16:52am

re: #895 ggt

VERY VERY KEWL!

Yeah ,, thats his 1st choice! He's already qualified for a partial scholarship and has to write a couple of papers/ letters to get more

Georgia Tech is his second choice (and OUR 1st ,,, in-state tuition , an in state scholarship program that pays up to 90%,,,,) but we won't hear from them till mid January, iirc

901 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 9:16:59am

re: #879 ggt

There is an ad on my screen for "Dorian Gray Capital Investments"

I'm not quite getting the "Dorian Gray" reference.

Everything deteriorates in the end? Not good for an investment firm--no?

How is everyone?

OH BTW, it's my Birthday! Yeah, Yeah!

I can only assume that it's the owner's name, and that his parents were either clueless, or malicious, but he's not going to let that deter him from putting his name on his own business, damnit.

Either that, or the owner heard the name somewhere, thinks it sounds elegant, and picked up that it has to do with longevity.

902 jaunte  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 9:18:12am

re: #901 SanFranciscoZionist

He's recently been looking at an attractive merger offer from Mr. Potemkin.

903 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 9:18:54am

re: #901 SanFranciscoZionist

Either that, or the owner heard the name somewhere, thinks it sounds elegant, and picked up that it has to do with longevity.

Someone who is relatively well-read, told someone else who isn't that it is a cool story. That person is laughing alot now.

904 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 9:20:21am

re: #900 sattv4u2

Yeah ,, thats his 1st choice! He's already qualified for a partial scholarship and has to write a couple of papers/ letters to get more

Georgia Tech is his second choice (and OUR 1st ,,, in-state tuition , an in state scholarship program that pays up to 90%,,,) but we won't hear from them till mid January, iirc

My kid got accepted to all three of his choices. It's now up to the $$$ factor. Although he still might stay home the first year. He doesn't know what he wants to do.

We've explained the options, it's his choice.

905 Kronocide  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 9:21:40am

More whining about defining poor from Debra J Saunders.

Now I do not wish to make light of the decisions families have to make to stay afloat or get ahead. But the Times did report that the Pendleton and her janitor husband gave up Red Lobster, movie nights and new clothes for three years in order to amass the $3,000 nest egg that will serve as a deposit on their new home. I think it’s fantastic that the Pendletons are making their dreams come true, even though it can be a bumpy ride.

New definition of "near poor" -- no iPad?

Still, how does Washington categorize this family “near poor?” As the Heritage Foundation’s Robert Rector objected, “the emotionally charged terms ‘poor’ or ‘near poor’ clearly suggest to most people a level of material hardship that doesn’t exist. It is deliberately used to mislead people.”

I find it offensive that my tax dollars are paying for a bureaucracy that has to cook up new ways to expand the definition of poverty — so that ”near poor” now includes a family that managed to save $3,000 in the last three years.

906 darthstar  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 9:21:46am

re: #901 SanFranciscoZionist

Either that, or the owner heard the name somewhere, thinks it sounds elegant, and picked up that it has to do with longevity.

And a hedonistic lifestyle.

907 sattv4u2  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 9:22:06am

re: #904 ggt

My kid got accepted to all three of his choices. It's now up to the $$$ factor. Although he still might stay home the first year. He doesn't know what he wants to do.

We've explained the options, it's his choice.

:)

Same here.

We told him HIS job was to get the grades and get accepted to whatever school he wants

Our job is to foot the bill(s)

908 jaunte  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 9:23:37am

re: #905 BigPapa

a family that managed to save $3,000 in the last three years

Wow, they really are living high on the hog.

909 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 9:24:34am

re: #907 sattv4u2

:)

Same here.

We told him HIS job was to get the grades and get accepted to whatever school he wants

Our job is to foot the bill(s)

To a point. He still has to get his ass in gear and apply for scholarships and put together a good resume and cover letter to beg for money.

He also has to figure what he thinks is the best use of all the money that will be spent. Stay home for a year, work and go to school, then go away. Or go away. There are advantages to both.

My thing is that both of his parents partied their first year away. I want him to have some "skin-in-the-game".

911 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 9:26:18am

re: #905 BigPapa

More whining about defining poor from Debra J Saunders.

IMHO, poor is anyone that qualifies for public aid. In this country it is the only benchmark I know that gives a clue.

Comparing lifestyle standards or possessions is useless. It's not like everyone who has cool stuff, paid-full price for it or bought it first-hand.

912 BongCrodny  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 9:27:30am

re: #908 jaunte

Wow, they really are living high on the hog.

Managing to save $20 a week over three years should in no way exclude a person/couple from being considered poor.

913 Killgore Trout  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 9:27:34am

The tyranny of the Obama Regime!

The United States of America is a Police State

The process took decades, but we have finally arrived at a situation when one can confidently say that as of today, the United States of American is a de facto police state. A real one. It's not hyperbole, or some sort of exaggerated notion used to make a point about "isolated" cases of police brutality.

Also, this undeniable fact has nothing to do with petty attacks on any one particular political party, or the president, or any one particular politician. It's a systemic issue. The system has turned fascistic, plutocratic, and oppressive.

914 darthstar  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 9:27:52am

re: #910 Killgore Trout

Insurgents Attack Baath Party Offices in Damascus

How is this related to OWS? ///

Aw, shit...that was a NY Times link...I only get 20 of those a month and I like to read Gail Collins. If I run out of free NYT reads before next weekend I'll be pissed. ;)

915 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 9:28:19am

re: #911 ggt

IMHO, poor is anyone that qualifies for public aid. In this country it is the only benchmark I know that gives a clue.

Comparing lifestyle standards or possessions is useless. It's not like everyone who has cool stuff, paid-full price for it or bought it first-hand.

I have a $430,000 house and make minimum wage.

916 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 9:28:36am

re: #913 Killgore Trout

The tyranny of the Obama Regime!

The United States of America is a Police State

IMHO, we've been a police state ever since the Kennedy Assignation. Or perhaps earlier