A Cry for Help from David Frum

Jilted conservative still hopes to get back together

PoliticsNovember 2011 • Views: 22,479

David Frum has a long piece in New York Magazine today, plaintively asking the question: When Did the GOP Lose Touch With Reality?

It’s an interesting read, a cry for help and a plea for the GOP to return to sanity, but it’s also a complete waste of time. The Republican Party and the right wing in general have totally rejected the likes of David Frum, and it’s going to be a long time (if ever) before they’ll be able to dig themselves out of the reactionary anti-reality hole they’ve excavated.

Face it, David — the Republican Party divorced you. You’re not going to get back together, and you’re only setting yourself up for more angst by clinging to this futile hope.

A Reply to David Frum

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175 comments

erik_t Mon, Nov 21, 2011 9:37:49am

I don't say it lightly, but the guy is in an abusive relationship with his party. It's sad to watch.

Gus Mon, Nov 21, 2011 9:38:04am

The Republican Party long ceased to be a political party and has become a religion instead.

The Left Mon, Nov 21, 2011 9:39:54am

I don't usually like Bill Maher, but this piece of his from april 2009 is still appropriate:

For Republicans, breaking up is hard to do
* The GOP's base is behaving like the guy who just got dumped by his wife.

Look, I get it, "real America." After an eight-year run of controlling the White House, Congress and the Supreme Court, this latest election has you feeling like a rejected husband. You've come home to find your things out on the front lawn -- or at least more things than you usually keep out on the front lawn. You're not ready to let go, but the country you love is moving on. And now you want to call it a whore and key its car.

That's what you are, the bitter divorced guy whose country has left him -- obsessing over it, haranguing it, blubbering one minute about how much you love it and vowing the next that if you cannot have it, nobody will.

But it's been almost 100 days, and your country is not coming back to you. She's found somebody new. And it's a black guy.

Sane Conservatives need to realise that the Republican party has left them.

makeitstop Mon, Nov 21, 2011 9:40:04am

re: #2 Gus 802

The Republican Party long ceased to be a political party and has become a ~~religion instead~~ cult.

Maybe a little closer to it.

Targetpractice Mon, Nov 21, 2011 9:40:59am

re: #1 erik_t

I don't say it lightly, but the guy is in an abusive relationship with his party. It's sad to watch.

"He's not like that anymore! He's changed! He promised!"

Is there a hotline for battered Republican voters?

(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Mon, Nov 21, 2011 9:41:21am

The barrage of hatred @ Hot Air and Freeperville is par for the course.

Reverend Mother Ramallo Mon, Nov 21, 2011 9:45:54am

It was absolutely a sad read. He's addicted to an ideal the doesn't exist in his former party, and they don't want him.
Addiction is hard to overcome though.
At least he's taken the first step in admitting there's a problem.

mikec6666 Mon, Nov 21, 2011 9:46:10am

It was a long time coming, but I think the exact point in time they copletely lost it was when they sanctioned the Swiftboat ads against John Kerry in the 2004 campaign. That was the point at which you could distinguish the former GOP from the new GOP. The new one in which no false reality is too far fetched.

The Left Mon, Nov 21, 2011 9:51:52am

re: #6 000G

The barrage of hatred @ Hot Air and Freeperville is par for the course.

Thanks, i needed my daily dose of schadenfreude. :)

erik_t Mon, Nov 21, 2011 9:52:33am

re: #7 OhNoZombies!

It was absolutely a sad read. He's addicted to an ideal the doesn't exist in his former party, and they don't want him.
Addiction is hard to overcome though.
At least he's taken the first step in admitting there's a problem.

It's hard for me to tell in retrospect whether such party ever truly existed in the lifetimes of a substantial minority of the electorate. I have never and will never desire a government that is small enough to be drowned in a bathtub, or a cabinet member that thinks the Rapture is so close that ecological conservation is unnecessary, or a party that explicitly panders to the baser elements of the southern evangelical worldview.

I know they keep removing components of the costume. I'm not sure how much the wearer has changed underneath.

Talking Point Detective Mon, Nov 21, 2011 9:53:07am

re: #8 mikec6666

It was a long time coming, but I think the exact point in time they completely lost it was when they sanctioned the Swiftboat ads against John Kerry in the 2004 campaign. That was the point at which you could distinguish the former GOP from the new GOP. The new one in which no false reality is too far fetched.

I think I agree with that.

Certainly rightwing extremism has been an element of the Republican Party for a long time - but I remember still that day when I was raking leaves in my yard and listening through headphones to mainstream media rightwing talk radio and hearing someone ranting about Kerry's service in the military and actually being shocked at the level of vitriol and vindictiveness that I was hearing. It did strike me as a defining moment - and it came back to me for the first time when I read your comment.

(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Mon, Nov 21, 2011 9:53:12am

Frum is pretty much the anti-Tea-Party Republican. He's been railing against them as well as Fox News since at least 2009 now (or 2008, with his stance against Palin). This cry for help is nothing new, really.

Talking Point Detective Mon, Nov 21, 2011 9:55:11am

re: #11 Talking Point Detective

er... leaves.

Gus Mon, Nov 21, 2011 9:55:34am

And currently that crackpot Newt Gingrich is the spiritual leader of the Republican ~~Party~~ ~~Church~~ Cult.

ProGunLiberal Mon, Nov 21, 2011 9:55:58am

We need Charles to do a comment on this:

DidiRemez Didi Remez
RT @AdamSerwer: Pam Geller calls for Butterball boycott over "Stealth Halal" turkeys infiltrating your Thanksgiving

So, she's complaining about Islamic Cock?

I'll be here all week.

Talking Point Detective Mon, Nov 21, 2011 9:56:26am

re: #13 Talking Point Detective

Just used the editing feature for the first time. Exciting!

Artist Mon, Nov 21, 2011 9:57:27am

re: #15 ProLifeLiberal

DidiRemez Didi Remez
RT @AdamSerwer: Pam Geller calls for Butterball boycott over "Stealth Halal" turkeys infiltrating your Thanksgiving

We need Charles to do a comment on this:

LOL What?

Killgore Trout Mon, Nov 21, 2011 9:59:50am

re: #15 ProLifeLiberal

We need Charles to do a comment on this:

So, she's complaining about Islamic Cock?

//

I'll be here all week.

heh

RadicalModerate Mon, Nov 21, 2011 10:01:48am

I think it is safe to say that the Republican Party in no longer the party of David Frum. It is, however rapidly becoming the party of David Duke.

Locker Mon, Nov 21, 2011 10:01:57am

Just got done reading this piece. Excellent work even though it will be ignored by the GOP rabid dog brigade.

The Left Mon, Nov 21, 2011 10:02:35am

re: #20 Locker

Just got done reading this piece. Excellent work even though it will be ignored by the GOP rabid dog brigade.

Hey locker! good to see you! how goes it?

Killgore Trout Mon, Nov 21, 2011 10:03:17am

Pam sez....

A citizen activist and reader of my website AtlasShrugs.com wrote to Butterball, one of the most popular producers of Thanksgiving turkeys in the United States, asking them if their turkeys were halal. Wendy Howze, a Butterball Consumer Response Representative, responded: “Our whole turkeys are certified halal.”

In a little-known strike against freedom, yet again, we are being forced into consuming meat slaughtered by means of a barbaric, torturous and inhuman method: Islamic slaughter.

They're also Kosher....

a Butterball, a kosher bird, a range-raised "natural" bird, and a fully certified organic bird.

funky chicken Mon, Nov 21, 2011 10:03:28am

re: #15 ProLifeLiberal

Stealth Sharia turkeys.

OMG

Targetpractice Mon, Nov 21, 2011 10:04:52am

re: #12 000G

Frum is pretty much the anti-Tea-Party Republican. He's been railing against them as well as Fox News since at least 2009 now (or 2008, with his stance against Palin). This cry for help is nothing new, really.

Frum's one of the last of a dying breed, Republicans who won't accept the reality that their party essentially is the Tea Party now. But, like a battered wife, he keeps trying to make excuses for the party and for his refusal to abandon it.

Reverend Mother Ramallo Mon, Nov 21, 2011 10:05:30am

re: #10 erik_t
ce of a new America in which many older-stock Americans intuit they will be left behind.

"It is precisely these disaffected whites—especially those who didn’t go to college—who form the Republican voting base. John McCain got 58 percent of noncollege-white votes in 2008. The GOP polls even higher among that group today, but the party can only sustain those numbers as long as it gives voice to alienation. Birtherism, the claim that President Obama was not born in the United States, expressed the feeling of many that power has shifted into alien hands. That feeling will not be easily quelled by Republican electoral success, because it is based on a deep sense of dispossession and disinheritance."
-David Frum
It's about maintaining the power structure they are familiar with, so to maintain power, they stoke the fears and resentments of those who have to compete with minorities and women.

Killgore Trout Mon, Nov 21, 2011 10:05:55am

Halal slaughter involves killing the animal by cutting the trachea, the esophagus, and the jugular vein, and letting the blood drain out while saying “Bismillah allahu akbar”—in the name of Allah the greatest. Many people refuse to eat it on religious grounds. Many Christians, Hindus or Sikhs and Jews find it offensive to eat meat slaughtered according to Islamic ritual (although Jews are less likely to be exposed to such meat, because they eat kosher).

Idiot. The standards are so similar that Kosher meat is also considered Halal.

makeitstop Mon, Nov 21, 2011 10:06:56am

re: #23 funky chicken

Stealth Sharia turkeys.

OMG

These are the things that are important in Pam Geller's world.

Fucking turkeys.

Killgore Trout Mon, Nov 21, 2011 10:07:40am

Kosher slaughter

Mammals and fowl must be slaughtered by a trained individual (a shochet) using a special method of slaughter, shechita (Deuteronomy 12:21). Among other features, shechita slaughter severs the jugular vein, carotid artery, esophagus and trachea in a single continuous cutting movement with an unserrated, sharp knife, which is intended to avoid unnecessary pain to the animal[citation needed] as consciousness is lost quickly due to loss of cerebral blood pressure.

ProGunLiberal Mon, Nov 21, 2011 10:07:53am

On a much sadder front, 16 have died in Syria today. The death toll must be in excess of 4,600 by now.

In addition, the Canadian Defense Minister said this:

AJELive AJELive
The #Canadian Defence Minister has said Canada won't rule out military action against #Syria | aje.me/tjhdIR

I never thought I would ever see Canada Saber-Rattling.

funky chicken Mon, Nov 21, 2011 10:08:27am

re: #8 mikec6666

It was a long time coming, but I think the exact point in time they copletely lost it was when they sanctioned the Swiftboat ads against John Kerry in the 2004 campaign. That was the point at which you could distinguish the former GOP from the new GOP. The new one in which no false reality is too far fetched.

The Clinton Derangement was really bad--the whole "Hillary left the White House and shot Vince Foster in the park" crowd was really frightening. They were very tied in with the rise of the militia movement, and made bizarre heroes out of David Koresh and Randy Weaver.

Then you have the tactics that were used against John McCain in the South Carolina primary in 2000. Karl Rove opened his arms and welcomed the nutjobs into the party to get his boy the nomination, and the Bush administration set them a place at the table.

Talking Point Detective Mon, Nov 21, 2011 10:10:03am

re: #29 ProLifeLiberal

On a much sadder front, 16 have died in Syria today. The death must be in excess of 4,600 by now.

It seems to me that what's going on in Syria has been underplayed in American media.

I'm not sure if I'm suggesting some deep meaning there - but offering an observation.

erik_t Mon, Nov 21, 2011 10:10:35am

The Halal Turkey Outrageous Outrage wouldn't make the cut in the Onion. Too fucking silly.

Charleston Chew Mon, Nov 21, 2011 10:11:27am

re: #4 makeitstop

Maybe a little closer to it.

Too big to be cult. A religion is a cult that's reached critical mass. (No pun intended.)

Gus Mon, Nov 21, 2011 10:11:40am

Since we're OT. On a similar vein...

Herman Cain: Muslim Doctors Scare Me

He did have a slight worry at one point during the chemotherapy process when he discovered that one of the surgeon's name was "Dr. Abdallah."

"I said to his physician assistant, I said, 'That sounds foreign--not that I had anything against foreign doctors--but it sounded too foreign," Cain tells the audience. "She said, 'He's from Lebanon.' Oh, Lebanon! My mind immediately started thinking, wait a minute, maybe his religious persuasion is different than mine! She could see the look on my face and she said, 'Don't worry, Mr. Cain, he's a Christian from Lebanon.'"

"Hallelujah!" Cain says. "Thank God!"

wrenchwench Mon, Nov 21, 2011 10:12:12am

During one unpleasant moment after I was fired from the think tank where I’d worked for the previous seven years, I tried to reassure my wife with an old cliché: “The great thing about an experience like this is that you learn who your friends really are.” She answered, “I was happier when I didn’t know.”

Head-in-the-sand is no way to live. Pull it out, Mr. Frum. Your last sentence reveals that you are still stuck:

But a great political party is worth fighting for.

Time to look at the other party, and what you can do with it, or for it.

ProGunLiberal Mon, Nov 21, 2011 10:12:28am

re: #31 Talking Point Detective

Wouldn't read too much into it. We have many problems ourselves, and by nature, our media is fairly parochial.

Varek Raith Mon, Nov 21, 2011 10:13:09am

Dear David,
Get a drink, order some pizza and watch some quality tv. That may take the sting out of being left at the altar.

erik_t Mon, Nov 21, 2011 10:14:00am

re: #34 Gus 802

It strains credulity to think that this man considers non-christians (probably also christians outside his own sub-sub-denomination) to be anything other than second-class citizens.

RadicalModerate Mon, Nov 21, 2011 10:14:13am

re: #30 funky chicken

The Clinton Derangement was really bad--the whole "Hillary left the White House and shot Vince Foster in the park" crowd was really frightening. They were very tied in with the rise of the militia movement, and made bizarre heroes out of David Koresh and Randy Weaver.

Then you have the tactics that were used against John McCain in the South Carolina primary in 2000. Karl Rove opened his arms and welcomed the nutjobs into the party to get his boy the nomination, and the Bush administration set them a place at the table.

Also, keep in mind that the disinformation to take down the Clinton presidency was an organized effort by many of the same individuals and groups who are trying the same with Obama.

Arkansas Project

iossarian Mon, Nov 21, 2011 10:14:13am

re: #34 Gus 802

Since we're OT. On a similar vein...

Herman Cain: Muslim Doctors Scare Me

Fearful idiot is idiotic and fearful.

Charleston Chew Mon, Nov 21, 2011 10:14:13am

re: #8 mikec6666

It was a long time coming, but I think the exact point in time they copletely lost it was when they sanctioned the Swiftboat ads against John Kerry in the 2004 campaign. That was the point at which you could distinguish the former GOP from the new GOP. The new one in which no false reality is too far fetched.

I would add to that the purple heart band-aid stickers at the GOP convention. That's really crossing a line for me at least.

NJDhockeyfan Mon, Nov 21, 2011 10:16:08am

re: #29 ProLifeLiberal

On a much sadder front, 16 have died in Syria today. The death toll must be in excess of 4,600 by now.

In addition, the Canadian Defense Minister said this:

I never thought I would ever see Canada Saber-Rattling.

Turkey is getting tired of it too...

Turkey turned up the heat on embattled President Bashar al-Assad on Monday as activists said at least 12 people were killed in raids by Syrian security forces.

The latest violence came as two people were reported wounded when buses carrying Turkish pilgrims on their way home from Mecca came under gunfire near the flashpoint city of Homs in central Syria.

Turkey's Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan warned Assad his days were numbered and that he could not stay in power indefinitely through the use of military power.

And in a signal of support for groups seeking to oust Assad, British Foreign Secretary William Hague met representatives of Syria's opposition for the first time, although he said it was too early for London to formally recognise them.

Russia for its part accused the West of provocative behaviour in the Syrian crisis, saying Western countries were telling the opposition to forget dialogue with the embattled president.

The two people were wounded when "Syrian soldiers" attacked the Turks travelling by bus back from the Muslim hajj pilgrimage in Saudi Arabia after taking a wrong turn near Homs, said the private CNN-Turk television station.

"We confirm that an attack took place in Syria," a Turkish foreign ministry official told AFP, without elaborating.

funky chicken Mon, Nov 21, 2011 10:16:13am

re: #22 Killgore Trout

Pam sez...

They're also Kosher....

No, this article is about tasting to see if the Butterball tasted better than the Kosher turkey.

lawhawk Mon, Nov 21, 2011 10:16:25am

re: #22 Killgore Trout

Nope. Butterball isn't kosher.

That slate article compares a Butterball to a kosher turkey and three other kinds for how they taste and appear.

Fact is that the kosher turkey is invariably superior to any other turkey, primarily because of the soaking/salting that makes the meat tender. You can brine other birds to give them a better taste, but the Butterball isn't a kosher bird and isn't certified kosher.

Gus Mon, Nov 21, 2011 10:17:31am

And since this is about Republicans:

Some News Makes You Know Less

A new Fairleigh Dickinson PublicMind Poll finds that Sunday morning television news shows "do the most to help people learn about current events, while some outlets, especially Fox News, lead people to be even less informed than those who they don't watch any news at all."

Killgore Trout Mon, Nov 21, 2011 10:17:42am

re: #44 lawhawk

Nope. Butterball isn't kosher.

That slate article compares a Butterball to a kosher turkey and three other kinds for how they taste and appear.

Fact is that the kosher turkey is invariably superior to any other turkey, primarily because of the soaking/salting that makes the meat tender. You can brine other birds to give them a better taste, but the Butterball isn't a kosher bird and isn't certified kosher.

Ah, thanks.

Gus Mon, Nov 21, 2011 10:18:45am

re: #41 Charleston Chew

I would add to that the purple heart band-aid stickers at the GOP convention. That's really crossing a line for me at least.

Man. That's disgusting. First time I ever heard of this.

Charleston Chew Mon, Nov 21, 2011 10:18:58am

re: #15 ProLifeLiberal

I don't get the big deal over halal meats. I'm not Muslim, but this description of Dhabihah slaughter doesn't sound bad to me:

This method of slaughtering animals consists of a swift, deep incision with a sharp knife on the neck, cutting the jugular veins and carotid arteries of both sides but leaving the spinal cord intact. It must be done with respect and compassion; avoiding as much as possible any animal pain or discomfort.

ProGunLiberal Mon, Nov 21, 2011 10:19:04am

re: #42 NJDhockeyfan

So, both Turkey and Canada are considering an attack.

And considering the Bus incident, Turkey would be justified in attacking, or more.

Hell, they could call NATO for this little attack.

wrenchwench Mon, Nov 21, 2011 10:19:14am

re: #37 Varek Raith

Dear David,
Get a drink, order some pizza and watch some quality tv. That may take the sting out of being left at the altar.

It would be easier if it had been "at the altar". It's his whole adult life he's spent with them. Last week I spoke with a friend whose wife asked him not to come home (they have two houses...) This was after 20-some years of marriage. They are now separated, he's still holding out hope, but after too years, he has started seeing someone else. Frum has seen this coming for years. He's avoiding reality. He just can't face it.

BongCrodny Mon, Nov 21, 2011 10:19:49am

re: #8 mikec6666

It was a long time coming, but I think the exact point in time they copletely lost it was when they sanctioned the Swiftboat ads against John Kerry in the 2004 campaign. That was the point at which you could distinguish the former GOP from the new GOP. The new one in which no false reality is too far fetched.

For me it was a couple years earlier, with Max Cleland.

Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste Mon, Nov 21, 2011 10:20:14am

re: #23 funky chicken

Stealth Sharia turkeys.

OMG

They removed their own insides in order to make space for bombs!!!11!!

nines09 Mon, Nov 21, 2011 10:20:45am

re: #45 Gus 802

And since this is about Republicans:

Some News Makes You Know Less

That explains a lot.

Obdicut Mon, Nov 21, 2011 10:20:55am

re: #45 Gus 802

Which is what I'd expect, since Fox went to court to fight for its right to lie to people.

This has become the primary question for me: Why does the GOP base actively seek out being lied to? Is it a self-reinforcing thing where they really don't know they're being lied to? It's hard to credit that, but I guess they could just be moving inside an information bubble where the lies are repeated so often they become true.

But how, for example, can you possibly think both that the government was right to defund ACORN and make it shut down, and think that ACORN is still alive and doing things?

I think, unfortunately, that a lot of people know they're being lied to, but they see it as... worthwhile, somehow. Necessary. Taqiyya. Something.

Charleston Chew Mon, Nov 21, 2011 10:21:11am

re: #25 OhNoZombies!

...maintaining the power structure they are familiar with...

This is the key underpinning of all conservatism.

Gus Mon, Nov 21, 2011 10:22:48am

re: #54 Obdicut

Which is what I'd expect, since Fox went to court to fight for its right to lie to people.

This has become the primary question for me: Why does the GOP base actively seek out being lied to? Is it a self-reinforcing thing where they really don't know they're being lied to? It's hard to credit that, but I guess they could just be moving inside an information bubble where the lies are repeated so often they become true.

But how, for example, can you possibly think both that the government was right to defund ACORN and make it shut down, and think that ACORN is still alive and doing things?

I think, unfortunately, that a lot of people know they're being lied to, but they see it as... worthwhile, somehow. Necessary. Taqiyya. Something.

Republican Taqiyya? I guess to be more accurate and in context it's probably more like Republican Faith.

ProGunLiberal Mon, Nov 21, 2011 10:23:30am

re: #55 Charleston Chew

Mildly Related:

AJELive AJELive
AJE's Alan Fisher: White House #Egypt statement expresses regret over violence, calls for restraint on both sides, elections on time #Tahrir

THE PROTESTERS ARE RESTRAINING THEMSELVES!!!!

You're not helping, White House!

Charleston Chew Mon, Nov 21, 2011 10:24:55am

re: #28 Killgore Trout

Kosher slaughter

It reminds me of the descriptions I've read of many ancient meat-eating cultures -- a reverence, respect, and thanksgiving (timely) for the animal giving its life. What most modern supermarket carnivores (like me) lack.

Targetpractice Mon, Nov 21, 2011 10:25:18am

re: #50 wrenchwench

It would be easier if it had been "at the altar". It's his whole adult life he's spent with them. Last week I spoke with a friend whose wife asked him not to come home (they have two houses...) This was after 20-some years of marriage. They are now separated, he's still holding out hope, but after too years, he has started seeing someone else. Frum has seen this coming for years. He's avoiding reality. He just can't face it.

Frum was handed the divorce papers last November and yet he still holds out hope that, if he just keeps pining long enough, the GOP will realize it's mistake and come back to him.

Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste Mon, Nov 21, 2011 10:25:29am

re: #49 ProLifeLiberal

So, both Turkey and Canada are considering an attack.

And considering the Bus incident, Turkey would be justified in attacking, or more.

Hell, they could call NATO for this little attack.

How would Canada attack Syria? Bomb it with Canadian bacon and send in the McKenzie brothers as infiltrators to sabotage their beer industry and take over state TV to run Great White North re-runs?

jaunte Mon, Nov 21, 2011 10:25:57am

re: #22 Killgore Trout

In a little-known strike against freedom, yet again, we are being forced into consuming meat slaughtered by means of a barbaric, torturous and inhuman method

Or, milady could select the veal.

Reverend Mother Ramallo Mon, Nov 21, 2011 10:26:28am

re: #54 Obdicut

It isn't a lie if you believe it...
Moreover, if you want to believe it. It's confirmation bias in action.

Charleston Chew Mon, Nov 21, 2011 10:27:20am

re: #47 Gus 802

Man. That's disgusting. First time I ever heard of this.

It was to mock John Kerry's purple heart from Vietnam. Jealousy, of course, because Dubya was never ~~wounded~~ in combat.

Gus Mon, Nov 21, 2011 10:28:23am

re: #63 Charleston Chew

It was to mock John Kerry's purple heart from Vietnam. Jealousy, of course, because Dubya was never ~~wounded~~ in combat.

But he was a fighter pilot!

Killgore Trout Mon, Nov 21, 2011 10:28:52am

re: #58 Charleston Chew

It reminds me of the descriptions I've read of many ancient meat-eating cultures -- a reverence, respect, and thanksgiving (timely) for the animal giving its life. What most modern supermarket carnivores (like me) lack.

I don't mind halal/kosher slaughter for smaller animals but on cows, pigs and other larger critters it can be kinda messy.

Charleston Chew Mon, Nov 21, 2011 10:28:59am

re: #63 Charleston Chew

It was to mock John Kerry's purple heart from Vietnam. Jealousy, of course, because Dubya was never ~~wounded~~ in combat.

Correction: John Kerry's THREE purple hearts.

chunkymonkey Mon, Nov 21, 2011 10:29:35am

Face it, David — the Republican Party divorced you. You’re not going to get back together, and you’re only setting yourself up for more angst by clinging to this futile hope.

What would you suggest as the alternative? Vote Democrat? That's hardly a solution when the Dems are batshit insane as well.

wrenchwench Mon, Nov 21, 2011 10:29:49am

re: #59 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

Frum was handed the divorce papers last November and yet he still holds out hope that, if he just keeps pining long enough, the GOP will realize it's mistake and come back to him.

Frum think he still has to dance with the one that brung him, even when they've changed bands and started doing the Charleston, and the one that brung him hasn't looked his way for hours.

Obdicut Mon, Nov 21, 2011 10:29:59am

re: #67 chunkymonkey

What would you suggest as the alternative? Vote Democrat? That's hardly a solution when the Dems are batshit insane as well.

How so?

iossarian Mon, Nov 21, 2011 10:30:00am

re: #61 jaunte

Or, milady could select the veal.

I wonder what Pam's opinion of militant vegans is.

lawhawk Mon, Nov 21, 2011 10:30:33am

At least one Muslim is wondering that if Butterball is Halal, how come it isn't posted anywhere on the Butterball site to identify it as such. There's no mention anywhere online of such a fact (only sites proffering Halal and Butterball are those referencing Geller and links back to her original article - not to Butterball's site other than its glossary), and I'd be willing to go so far as to say that her "contact" is simply making stuff up and has no proof of her statements re: Butterball and Halal.

And Halal and Kosher are similar in practice/procedures.

Charleston Chew Mon, Nov 21, 2011 10:30:48am

re: #29 ProLifeLiberal

I never thought I would ever see Canada Saber-Rattling.

You've never been to a hockey game?

iossarian Mon, Nov 21, 2011 10:30:56am

re: #69 Obdicut

How so?

They believe in global warming.

They want to raise taxes to help reduce the deficit.

They think that women should be allowed control over their own bodies.

See? Insane.

Targetpractice Mon, Nov 21, 2011 10:31:12am

re: #64 Gus 802

But he was a fighter pilot!

//

Don't laugh, at the time I was one of those with head firmly up ass, arguing that his being assigned to the F-102 was itself a proof of his "bravery." Yeah, the F-102 was a flying coffin, that had a reputation of killing pilots for simple mistakes. But to compare it to putting yourself into a combat situation was sheer stupidity.

Gus Mon, Nov 21, 2011 10:32:10am

re: #74 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

Don't laugh, at the time I was one of those with head firmly up ass, arguing that his being assigned to the F-102 was itself a proof of his "bravery." Yeah, the F-102 was a flying coffin, that had a reputation of killing pilots for simple mistakes. But to compare it to putting yourself into a combat situation was sheer stupidity.

~~He never went beyond training. Can anyone point to me where he served in an actual squadron?~~

Targetpractice Mon, Nov 21, 2011 10:32:48am

re: #67 chunkymonkey

What would you suggest as the alternative? Vote Democrat? That's hardly a solution when the Dems are batshit insane as well.

Does abandoning the GOP automatically make one a Democrat?

Artist Mon, Nov 21, 2011 10:33:02am

re: #67 chunkymonkey

What would you suggest as the alternative? Vote Democrat? That's hardly a solution when the Dems are batshit insane as well.

Hello MBF. Was wondering when you'd show up.

Gus Mon, Nov 21, 2011 10:33:16am

Anyway. Forget about Bush. That's still fecked up.

RadicalModerate Mon, Nov 21, 2011 10:33:26am

re: #67 chunkymonkey

What would you suggest as the alternative? Vote Democrat? That's hardly a solution when the Dems are batshit insane as well.

The "batshit insane" are Democrats for the most part relegated to the periphery of the party structure - and hold no real positions of power. On the whole, even if you disagree with them, most of them are at least reasonable.

On the other hand, with the Republicans, the nutcases are setting policy, and hold the leadership positions within the party structure.

Killgore Trout Mon, Nov 21, 2011 10:33:37am

re: #71 lawhawk

At least one Muslim is wondering that if Butterball is Halal, how come it isn't posted anywhere on the Butterball site to identify it as such. There's no mention anywhere online of such a fact (only sites proffering Halal and Butterball are those referencing Geller and links back to her original article - not to Butterball's site other than its glossary), and I'd be willing to go so far as to say that her "contact" is simply making stuff up and has no proof of her statements re: Butterball and Halal.

And Halal and Kosher are similar in practice/procedures.

Butterball's front page lists it as halal. One of Pams readers commented that they called and asked. The recent addition of halal is because they're exporting more Turkeys to the middle east.

Charleston Chew Mon, Nov 21, 2011 10:33:50am

re: #32 erik_t

The Halal Turkey Outrageous Outrage wouldn't make the cut in the Onion. Too fucking silly.

According to a poll conducted by Sabanci University, Turkey is 83% Muslim. And to think, I've been serving to my good Amurican family all these years! I'm shocked!

jaunte Mon, Nov 21, 2011 10:34:47am

re: #80 Killgore Trout

Butterball's front page lists it as halal. One of Pams readers commented that they called and asked. The recent addition of halal is because they're exporting more Turkeys to the middle east.

Hey, it's also "Russian Approved."

ProGunLiberal Mon, Nov 21, 2011 10:35:11am

re: #60 oaktree

I wouldn't mess with Canada they are very capable in their own right, and have a history of actions.

They were feared in WWI, and in WWII and the Korean, they did tremendous work.

They were the only group on D-Day to get all the objectives for the 1st day of the invasion.

Canada and Turkey would be enough to knock over Assad.

Killgore Trout Mon, Nov 21, 2011 10:35:22am

re: #82 jaunte

Hey, it's also "Russian Approved."

Commies!

ProGunLiberal Mon, Nov 21, 2011 10:36:11am

re: #80 Killgore Trout

Hehehe, pun!

jaunte Mon, Nov 21, 2011 10:37:36am

re: #34 Gus 802

He did have a slight worry at one point during the chemotherapy process when he discovered that one of the surgeon's name was "Dr. Abdallah."
Herman Cain: Muslim Doctors Scare Me

Late comment on this, but I have to say, as someone whose life was saved by a Muslim vascular surgeon who works in Texas, Herman Cain is a bigoted fool.

Big Steve Mon, Nov 21, 2011 10:37:50am

re: #52 oaktree

Ok you are forcing me to repeat the best quote in TV history......"As God as my witness, I thought turkey's could fly."

Tiny Alien Kitties are Watching You Mon, Nov 21, 2011 10:38:34am

Personally at this point I am getting worried that the Republicans will do much better than most rational thinking people forecast in the next election simply because so many rational people think it obvious that the Republicans have no chance.

Voter apathy worries me a lot, this may be an election where only the angry right shows up to vote in record numbers. Add to that the pissed off far left who blame Obama for not having managed to institute a socialist nirvana in the United States in four years flat and say they won't be fooled into voting for his false promises of "change" again.

Between unrealistically Idealist expectations that have been crushed by reality (but blamed on Obama) on the far left. An apparently growing by the day sense of belief amongst independents that the current crop of Republican hopefuls are a joke that they don't need to really worry about winning, but might vote for anyway just to protest Obama's failure to somehow kickstart the economy back to life fast enough. Couple those to the ever increasing invective and enthusiasm to embrace ODS on the Right and we may just have a real fight on our hands in 2012.

Varek Raith Mon, Nov 21, 2011 10:39:16am

re: #86 jaunte

Late comment on this, but I have to say, as someone whose life was saved by a Muslim vascular surgeon who works in Texas, Herman Cain is a bigoted fool.

The only time I'd ever worry about a doctor is if he entered the room and said, "Hi everybody!"

Killgore Trout Mon, Nov 21, 2011 10:39:28am

Butterball international markets
Look at that evil cluster of butterball outlets in the Middle east.
Oddly you can get a butterball in Sri Lanka but not India.

SanFranciscoZionist Mon, Nov 21, 2011 10:39:39am

re: #22 Killgore Trout

Pam sez...

They're also Kosher....

The process is almost identical to kosher slaughter, and kosher meat is accepted as halal by many Sunnis.

So my question to you, Pam, is, given that the bird can only be slaughtered once, and if it is also kosher, that method will be that of kosher slaughter, is kosher slaughter also barbaric? Because I don't think you actually want to say that, Pam.

SteveMcG Mon, Nov 21, 2011 10:39:39am

Frum has nobody to blame but himself. He shuld have seen it coming. The Dixiecrats and theocrats were gaining strength in the Republican Party since the 80's. What passes for "sane" Republicans were happy to have their help, winking and nodding all along thinking that they could keep the whackos in line. By the 90's it was obvious that the Republican Party was no longer interested in anything but power, but Frum and his kind stood idly by believing that the Clinton witchhunt had something to do with national honor. I distinctly remember in 2004, Arlen Spector ran for re-election in PA insisting that he would be in line for the chairmanship of whatever Senate comittee that handles judicial appointments and he would use his seniority and his "considerable" influence in the party to make sure that only reasonable judges made it out of his comittee. He wasn't even sworn in when the Party made him back off of that promise and rubber stamp whoever he was told to. So he can save the horrified epiphany for somebody else.

SanFranciscoZionist Mon, Nov 21, 2011 10:41:48am

re: #26 Killgore Trout

Idiot. The standards are so similar that Kosher meat is also considered Halal.

Many people refuse to eat it on religious grounds. Many Christians, Hindus or Sikhs and Jews find it offensive to eat meat slaughtered according to Islamic ritual (although Jews are less likely to be exposed to such meat, because they eat kosher).

I know that Sikhs won't eat halal. Hindus often won't eat halal meat because it's MEAT.

Jews won't eat it, not because there's anything wrong with it, but because we're so damn picky about our own process, but much kosher food is also certified halal, and NO ONE CARES.

lawhawk Mon, Nov 21, 2011 10:42:00am

re: #80 Killgore Trout

Thanks. A search of Butterball.com didn't reveal that; butterballcorp.com did. Odd. And yes, most of that is for export.

I'll retract my comments about Pam's contact lying as Butterball has indeed gotten halal certification.

AK-47% Mon, Nov 21, 2011 10:42:26am

Karl Rove made an attempt to intimate that ideologically pure but politically unqualified candidates like Chiristine O'Donnel were not the best thing for the GOP and got slapped down so badly that he retracted and has remained silent on the matter since.

SanFranciscoZionist Mon, Nov 21, 2011 10:42:41am

re: #31 Talking Point Detective

It seems to me that what's going on in Syria has been underplayed in American media.

I'm not sure if I'm suggesting some deep meaning there - but offering an observation.

No one cares. That's the deep meaning I'm deriving.

funky chicken Mon, Nov 21, 2011 10:42:43am

re: #67 chunkymonkey

What would you suggest as the alternative? Vote Democrat? That's hardly a solution when the Dems are batshit insane as well.

If I had to choose between Alan West and Alan Grayson, I'd have a tough choice to make, but Grayson is less batshit insane than West. Grayson is more abrasive and annoying, and farther to the left than I. But West wins "batshit insane" hands down.

iossarian Mon, Nov 21, 2011 10:43:17am

I, for one, am looking forward to feasting on the blood of innocent martyred turkeys this Thanksgiving.

I might throw some shellfish in there too, just to keep the whole Judeo/Christian distinction perfectly clear.

Targetpractice Mon, Nov 21, 2011 10:44:19am

re: #98 iossarian

I, for one, am looking forward to feasting on the blood of innocent martyred turkeys this Thanksgiving.

I might throw some shellfish in there too, just to keep the whole Judeo/Christian distinction perfectly clear.

No shellfish for myself, but I will include the consumption of baked swine flesh. And some martyred potatoes as well.

100

SanFranciscoZionist Mon, Nov 21, 2011 10:45:11am

re: #34 Gus 802

Since we're OT. On a similar vein...

Herman Cain: Muslim Doctors Scare Me

Asshole.

One of the best GPs I ever met was a Palestinian Muslim who'd trained at Patrice Lumumba in Moscow. By the time I met him, he was working in San Francisco, and had an adoring clientele of elderly Jewish ladies who went to him because he spoke good Russian, 'with a cute accent'.

101

Gus Mon, Nov 21, 2011 10:45:39am

re: #94 lawhawk

Thanks. A search of Butterball.com didn't reveal that; butterballcorp.com did. Odd. And yes, most of that is for export.

I'll retract my comments about Pam's contact lying as Butterball has indeed gotten halal certification.

I saw this and this.

102

AK-47% Mon, Nov 21, 2011 10:45:56am

Three cheers for the party that rejects Evolution but embraces Social Darwinism! Three cheers for the party that believes that teaching teenagers about how their bodies function only encourages them to be promiscuous! Three cheers for the party that advocates states' rights but wants federal bans on abortion and gay marriage!

103

SanFranciscoZionist Mon, Nov 21, 2011 10:46:15am

re: #44 lawhawk

Nope. Butterball isn't kosher.

That slate article compares a Butterball to a kosher turkey and three other kinds for how they taste and appear.

Fact is that the kosher turkey is invariably superior to any other turkey, primarily because of the soaking/salting that makes the meat tender. You can brine other birds to give them a better taste, but the Butterball isn't a kosher bird and isn't certified kosher.

Ah. Thanks for clearing up.

My friend Basya complains that kosher birds are harder to get a crispy skin on.

104

Charleston Chew Mon, Nov 21, 2011 10:46:30am

re: #67 chunkymonkey

What would you suggest as the alternative? Vote Democrat? That's hardly a solution when the Dems are batshit insane as well.

You're entitled to your opinion, but my theory is that in most every time period in the history of the US's 2 party system, there's one sensible party and one insensible party, because those are the 2 kinds of voters, ever since the Federalist Party sensibly opposed going to war with England in 1812, while the Democratic-Republican Party jingoists foamed at the mouth.

The yin and yang kinda stay in balance because if one party goes after the crazy vote, the other naturally wants to pick up all the non-crazy votes that are left on the table.

The names of the crazy and non-crazy parties change over time, but right now, the Dems are the sensible ones.

105

funky chicken Mon, Nov 21, 2011 10:46:34am

re: #80 Killgore Trout

Butterball's front page lists it as halal. One of Pams readers commented that they called and asked. The recent addition of halal is because they're exporting more Turkeys to the middle east.

Gotta go out for a while, but I couldn't find that on that page (very quick perusal). I would expect the exported birds to perhaps be halal, but why would birds produced for the domestic market be also? It is a more expensive processing method, so I'd be surprised if the huge trough of birds in the neighborhood Wal-Mart are all Halal?

106

SanFranciscoZionist Mon, Nov 21, 2011 10:46:44am

re: #48 Charleston Chew

I don't get the big deal over halal meats. I'm not Muslim, but this description of Dhabihah slaughter doesn't sound bad to me:

BUt Muslims with knives! Muslims with knives!!

107

funky chicken Mon, Nov 21, 2011 10:47:25am

re: #99 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

No shellfish for myself, but I will include the consumption of baked swine flesh. And some martyred potatoes as well.

/

Hey, bacon and oyster stuffing in your unholy bird. It's a thought.

108

RadicalModerate Mon, Nov 21, 2011 10:47:44am

For those individuals who insist on invoking the MBF, saying that "Democrats are just as bad!", I challenge you to find a single instance of one who matches the Tea Party and SoCon Republicans desire to repeal the 13th-17th Amendments to the US Constitution.

To these people, revoking the abolition of slavery is on the table.

109

bluecheese Mon, Nov 21, 2011 10:47:49am

Back in 2009, I wrote a piece for Newsweek arguing that Republicans would regret conceding so much power to Rush Limbaugh. Until that point, I’d been a frequent guest on Fox News, but thenceforward some kind of fatwa was laid down upon me. Over the next few months, I’d occasionally receive morning calls from young TV bookers asking if I was available to appear that day. For sport, I’d always answer, “I’m available—but does your senior producer know you’ve called me?” An hour later, I’d receive an embarrassed second call: “We’ve decided to go in a different direction.”

lol.

Can anybody explain to me how it's McCain and Feingold's fault that contemporary campaign fiance is so jacked up now? Frum seems to think this, and I am not fluent enough in GOP speak to know the logic behind it.

thanks in advance.

110

Tiny Alien Kitties are Watching You Mon, Nov 21, 2011 10:48:06am

re: #26 Killgore Trout

Idiot. The standards are so similar that Kosher meat is also considered Halal.

Who said that? Pam? Whoever it was really is an idiot.

Many foods are listed as Halal here but only because they are also listed as Kosher. The food companies would not bother preparing food especially for less than 1.2% of the population for Muslims but since Kosher and Halal requirements are basically identical they get to kill two birds with one stone thereby reaching close to 4% of the population as customers forced to be exclusive to their brands.

111

SanFranciscoZionist Mon, Nov 21, 2011 10:48:13am

re: #71 lawhawk

At least one Muslim is wondering that if Butterball is Halal, how come it isn't posted anywhere on the Butterball site to identify it as such. There's no mention anywhere online of such a fact (only sites proffering Halal and Butterball are those referencing Geller and links back to her original article - not to Butterball's site other than its glossary), and I'd be willing to go so far as to say that her "contact" is simply making stuff up and has no proof of her statements re: Butterball and Halal.

And Halal and Kosher are similar in practice/procedures.

They're obsessed with the idea that halal meat is secretly finding its way onto shelves, and into non-Muslim's food.

Why this would pose a problem is never mentioned.

112

ProGunLiberal Mon, Nov 21, 2011 10:48:26am

re: #100 SanFranciscoZionist

How can an accent be cute, by the way?

113

thecommodore Mon, Nov 21, 2011 10:48:35am

re: #97 funky chicken

If I had to choose between Alan West and Alan Grayson, I'd have a tough choice to make, but Grayson is less batshit insane than West. Grayson is more abrasive and annoying, and farther to the left than I. But West wins "batshit insane" hands down.

Grayson is indeed abrasive and off-putting, but he is based in reality. You may not agree with him, or even like what he is saying, but his point of view is grounded in what is actually happening, rather than fantasy. You cannot honestly say that about Allen West, or his ilk.

114

Targetpractice Mon, Nov 21, 2011 10:49:31am

re: #107 funky chicken

Hey, bacon and oyster stuffing in your unholy bird. It's a thought.

Brilliant!

115

ProGunLiberal Mon, Nov 21, 2011 10:49:39am

I'm going to put this on the new thread as well, but:

AJELive AJELive
Breaking News: #Egypt's interim cabinet has offered its resignation to the military council.

116

Reverend Mother Ramallo Mon, Nov 21, 2011 10:50:07am

re: #102 ralphieboy

Yay ?
//

117

(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Mon, Nov 21, 2011 10:50:18am

re: #54 Obdicut

This has become the primary question for me: Why does the GOP base actively seek out being lied to?

To an atheist, that's probably as vexing a question as why people are religious/faithful. And the answer is probably the same, or at least very similar.

118

(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Mon, Nov 21, 2011 10:51:26am

re: #103 SanFranciscoZionist

Ah. Thanks for clearing up.

My friend Basya complains that kosher birds are harder to get a crispy skin on.

I got an anti-cancer brochure the other day and it said poultry skin gives you cancer.

Bummer.

119

SanFranciscoZionist Mon, Nov 21, 2011 10:51:29am

re: #105 funky chicken

Gotta go out for a while, but I couldn't find that on that page (very quick perusal). I would expect the exported birds to perhaps be halal, but why would birds produced for the domestic market be also? It is a more expensive processing method, so I'd be surprised if the huge trough of birds in the neighborhood Wal-Mart are all Halal?

That does strike me as odd, given how much more you pay for kosher meat.

120

chunkymonkey Mon, Nov 21, 2011 10:52:33am

re: #69 Obdicut

How so?

Do I really have to spell it out? This website used to do a really good job of showing us just that. Now its focus is on the GOP, fair enough, but that doesn't make the Dems a rational alternative.

re: #76 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

Does abandoning the GOP automatically make one a Democrat?

I didn't say that it did, I asked what's the alternative?

121

SanFranciscoZionist Mon, Nov 21, 2011 10:52:37am

re: #112 ProLifeLiberal

How can an accent be cute, by the way?

Well, if you've ever seen a flock of young Americans meeting a good-looking Australian...

122

allegro Mon, Nov 21, 2011 10:52:45am

re: #88 ausador

Add to that the pissed off far left who blame Obama for not having managed to institute a socialist nirvana in the United States in four years flat and say they won't be fooled into voting for his false promises of "change" again.

Please don't go sounding like Hot Air et al. What has pissed off progressives has been Obama's insistence on bipartisanship when there are clearly no good faith intentions on the part of Republicans. They've flat out stated that they will do anything to destroy his Presidency yet he perseveres for some illusive collegiality or something. It has been his apparent giving away the farm without even trying to negotiate for a few eggs. It is his keeping the same guys in charge of Wall Street that caused the problems and not fighting for such things as Elizabeth Warren's appointment to head the consumer bureau.

I don't agree with all of the far left complaints, but they really are reality based for the most part. A lot of these problems are Congress and not Obama, but as the leader of the party, they fall on his shoulders as well. That said, Obama will not be left hanging by the left at the next election. I think a few will pout and stay home but the vast majority are clearly in recognition of the consequences of the alternative.

123

SanFranciscoZionist Mon, Nov 21, 2011 10:53:14am

re: #118 000G

I got an anti-cancer brochure the other day and it said poultry skin gives you cancer.

Bummer.

Instantly? Because I eat it pretty much once a year.

124

ProGunLiberal Mon, Nov 21, 2011 10:54:27am

re: #121 SanFranciscoZionist

I guess I see what you mean.

I like the French Accent.

125

Varek Raith Mon, Nov 21, 2011 10:55:32am

re: #118 000G

I got an anti-cancer brochure the other day and it said poultry skin gives you cancer.

Bummer.

Chill, everything gives you cancer.
;)

126

Talking Point Detective Mon, Nov 21, 2011 10:55:32am

re: #8 mikec6666

It was a long time coming, but I think the exact point in time they copletely lost it was when they sanctioned the Swiftboat ads against John Kerry in the 2004 campaign. That was the point at which you could distinguish the former GOP from the new GOP. The new one in which no false reality is too far fetched.

Interesting that here's an article by Frum on the Swiftboaters - an article that finds fault with Kerry.

[Link: www.aei.org...]

Hard to say if there is a dividing line between when the Republican Party tolerated extremism and when they openly courted extremism, but it seems that Frum's realizations about "conservative" extremism came after 2004.

127

JeffM70 Mon, Nov 21, 2011 10:56:02am

I think David Frum must have been ignoring or been in denial of the warning signs that have been present since the mid-90s and picked up intensity after 9/11. It's not unlike when child abuse goes unnoticed. The signs are almost always there if one chooses to see them.

128

Charleston Chew Mon, Nov 21, 2011 10:56:58am

re: #120 chunkymonkey

Do I really have to spell it out?

Well, that's what the keyboard's for.

129

chunkymonkey Mon, Nov 21, 2011 10:57:26am

re: #73 iossarian

They believe in global warming.

That's a funny belief system.

They want to raise taxes to help reduce the deficit.

If you think the Democrats will ever reduce the deficit, taxes or no, I have a bridge you may be interested in buying.

They think that women should be allowed control over their own bodies.

I've known a lot of men over the years who are all about that, but not for the sake of any women. They just don't want anything like responsibility getting in the way of their fun. That makes them awesome! :P

130

lawhawk Mon, Nov 21, 2011 10:58:43am

re: #103 SanFranciscoZionist

If you pat dry the skin before putting them in the oven, you'll get a crispier skin; then you can add the seasonings (and you can add spice rub to help enhance the crispiness of the skin during the roasting process).

131

Targetpractice Mon, Nov 21, 2011 10:59:41am

re: #76 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds
I didn't say that it did, I asked what's the alternative?

If one believes that their party has gone insane, do they have to have an exit strategy before abandoning it?

132

Eventual Carrion Mon, Nov 21, 2011 11:00:26am

re: #64 Gus 802

But he was a fighter pilot!

//

Yeah, fighting to keep his ass firmly seated in the continental United States.

133

celticdragon Mon, Nov 21, 2011 11:03:01am

re: #97 funky chicken

If I had to choose between Alan West and Alan Grayson, I'd have a tough choice to make, but Grayson is less batshit insane than West. Grayson is more abrasive and annoying, and farther to the left than I. But West wins "batshit insane" hands down.

Really? A tough call between a guy who is abrasive and can be an ass on the floor of the house and somebody else who is a fucking war criminal and actually engaged in a mock execution of a prisoner in direct violation of Geneva war crime statutes as well as US military regulations?

You cannot be fucking serious.

134

(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Mon, Nov 21, 2011 11:03:05am

re: #123 SanFranciscoZionist

Instantly? Because I eat it pretty much once a year.

No idea, this brochure isn't very good with sourcing and uhm, facts.

135

Daniel Ballard Mon, Nov 21, 2011 11:03:59am

Leave th eparty David. Join us indies.

The Official Home Of The Sane®

136

Charleston Chew Mon, Nov 21, 2011 11:04:01am

re: #129 chunkymonkey

If you think the Democrats will ever reduce the deficit, taxes or no, I have a bridge you may be interested in buying.

Debt as a percentage of GDP went up under Reagan, and both Bushes, but in the midst of all that, it went down under Clinton.

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

137

Daniel Ballard Mon, Nov 21, 2011 11:05:00am

re: #136 Charleston Chew

Well sure given Bush era spending cuts low interest and a dot com boom.

138

Charleston Chew Mon, Nov 21, 2011 11:05:54am

re: #129 chunkymonkey

I've known a lot of men over the years who are all about that, but not for the sake of any women. They just don't want anything like responsibility getting in the way of their fun. That makes them awesome! :P

You've known a lot of assholes.

139

Charleston Chew Mon, Nov 21, 2011 11:06:43am

re: #137 Rightwingconspirator

Well sure given Bush era spending cuts low interest and a dot com boom.

So it doesn't count?

140

allegro Mon, Nov 21, 2011 11:06:43am

re: #138 Charleston Chew

You've known a lot of assholes.

They do tend to congregate. Check out a MRA site someday.

141

SanFranciscoZionist Mon, Nov 21, 2011 11:07:02am

re: #129 chunkymonkey

That's a funny belief system.

If you think the Democrats will ever reduce the deficit, taxes or no, I have a bridge you may be interested in buying.

I've known a lot of men over the years who are all about that, but not for the sake of any women. They just don't want anything like responsibility getting in the way of their fun. That makes them awesome! :P

Seriously? That's where you're going to go with reproductive rights? "It's all about dudes not having to take responsibility"?

142

Obdicut Mon, Nov 21, 2011 11:07:52am

re: #127 JeffM70

Using child abuse as an anlogy is probably unwise, but I otherwise agree. I don't understand how those who supported the GOP over the past decades can be at all surprised that this is what came to pass. Grover Norquist is not new. Ron Paul is not new. Rush Limbaugh is not new. The religious right is not new.

143

celticdragon Mon, Nov 21, 2011 11:09:30am

re: #141 SanFranciscoZionist

Seriously? That's where you're going to go with reproductive rights? "It's all about dudes not having to take responsibility"?

Chunkster has been listening to the idiots who claim that birth control is evil because it encourages teh sexy times without responsibility.

I am beginning to suspect he is actually a performance artist and we are getting rolled as a prank.

144

Daniel Ballard Mon, Nov 21, 2011 11:09:38am

re: #139 Charleston Chew

Yes of course. Just not as a "Clinton solely saved the budget" context.

145

iossarian Mon, Nov 21, 2011 11:14:04am

re: #141 SanFranciscoZionist

Seriously? That's where you're going to go with reproductive rights? "It's all about dudes not having to take responsibility"?

It's certainly not about what might be best for women, because that's not something that really registers with these folk.

re: #143 celticdragon

Chunkster has been listening to the idiots who claim that birth control is evil because it encourages teh sexy times without responsibility.

I am beginning to suspect he is actually a performance artist and we are getting rolled as a prank.

Obviously this is the case, but troll-molesting is the only remaining form of molestation that remains legal, so I'm going to get my kicks where I can./

146

Charleston Chew Mon, Nov 21, 2011 11:17:20am

re: #144 Rightwingconspirator

Yes of course. Just not as a "Clinton solely saved the budget" context.

It also went down under Carter, Johnson, Kennedy, and Truman.

147

Tiny Alien Kitties are Watching You Mon, Nov 21, 2011 11:20:06am

re: #125 Varek Raith

Chill, everything gives you cancer.
;)

I remember during the late 70's when it seemed like every other week they were pulling some product off the shelves for being carcinogenic or at the least linking it via studies to cancer. I turned to my brother and said "Whats next? Breathing the air will give you cancer?"

Then of course I had to thump my palm to my forehead at my own stupidity because this was before the clean air act and acid rain and high smog particulates were the norm, and yes breathing the air had been linked to cancer in several studies already.

/derp

148

chunkymonkey Mon, Nov 21, 2011 11:30:00am

re: #136 Charleston Chew

Debt as a percentage of GDP went up under Reagan, and both Bushes, but in the midst of all that, it went down under Clinton.

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

The president has veto power and little else when it comes to the deficit. The congress is the fundamental problem when it comes to debt and deficits. Let's see... which party had control of congress when Clinton had his whopping surplus? Oh, right.

Also, Clinton's magical surplus came during the dot-com boom. I'm sure he'd have a huge surplus at the moment.

You all are still missing the point. THE GOP IS CRAZY, WE AGREE ON THIS POINT. MY QUESTION REMAINS: WHAT'S THE ALTERNATIVE?????

149

chunkymonkey Mon, Nov 21, 2011 11:30:30am

re: #138 Charleston Chew

You've known a lot of assholes.

Agreed. I went to a liberal arts college. I certainly wouldn't call them friends.

150

Obdicut Mon, Nov 21, 2011 11:31:01am

re: #148 chunkymonkey

The Democrats, who you haven't done a damn thing to show are nuts, are the alternative.

151

mr.fusion Mon, Nov 21, 2011 11:31:59am

re: #148 chunkymonkey

THE GOP IS CRAZY, WE AGREE ON THIS POINT. MY QUESTION REMAINS: WHAT'S THE ALTERNATIVE???

Right now the alternative is a party that largely bases their policy positions on fact and truth. You may disagree with the "means" they use to get to their "ends," but for the most part the views of the Democratic Party are based in reality.

Sounds like a pretty low bar to set, but there you go

152

iossarian Mon, Nov 21, 2011 11:32:20am

re: #149 chunkymonkey

Agreed. I went to a liberal arts college. I certainly wouldn't call them friends.

Chip on shoulder - check.

Inability to relate to people with different worldview than self - check.

153

chunkymonkey Mon, Nov 21, 2011 11:32:20am

re: #141 SanFranciscoZionist

Seriously? That's where you're going to go with reproductive rights? "It's all about dudes not having to take responsibility"?

It's not all about that. But you're kidding yourself if you don't think that has something to do with it.

154

aagcobb Mon, Nov 21, 2011 11:35:06am

re: #34 Gus 802

Since we're OT. On a similar vein...

Herman Cain: Muslim Doctors Scare Me

I had to check this link to see if it was an Onion story. Cain has made himself almost impossible to parody.

155

Eventual Carrion Mon, Nov 21, 2011 11:43:49am

re: #111 SanFranciscoZionist

They're obsessed with the idea that halal meat is secretly finding its way onto shelves, and into non-Muslim's food.

Why this would pose a problem is never mentioned.

Probably the magic it carries when prepared that way.

156

Charleston Chew Mon, Nov 21, 2011 11:53:58am

re: #148 chunkymonkey

The president has veto power and little else when it comes to the deficit. The congress is the fundamental problem when it comes to debt and deficits. Let's see... which party had control of congress when Clinton had his whopping surplus? Oh, right.

Also, Clinton's magical surplus came during the dot-com boom. I'm sure he'd have a huge surplus at the moment.

You all are still missing the point. THE GOP IS CRAZY, WE AGREE ON THIS POINT. MY QUESTION REMAINS: WHAT'S THE ALTERNATIVE???

I don't see a historical pattern based on control of Congress. Ds & Rs both presided over both increases and decreases.

157

Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste Mon, Nov 21, 2011 12:15:03pm

re: #148 chunkymonkey

The president has veto power and little else when it comes to the deficit. The congress is the fundamental problem when it comes to debt and deficits. Let's see... which party had control of congress when Clinton had his whopping surplus? Oh, right.

Also, Clinton's magical surplus came during the dot-com boom. I'm sure he'd have a huge surplus at the moment.

You all are still missing the point. THE GOP IS CRAZY, WE AGREE ON THIS POINT. MY QUESTION REMAINS: WHAT'S THE ALTERNATIVE???

Note how the minute Congress controlling budgets is a positive thing the spin goes how wonderful Republican-controlled Congresses are, but otherwise everything spending related is Obama's fault this and Obama's fault that. :p

158

chunkymonkey Mon, Nov 21, 2011 12:34:35pm

re: #157 oaktree

Note how the minute Congress controlling budgets is a positive thing the spin goes how wonderful Republican-controlled Congresses are, but otherwise everything spending related is Obama's fault this and Obama's fault that. :p

I did not say this. Look, this is not rocket science. I think the GOP and the Dems are both insane. What I want to know is if Charles thinks the Dems are all that, or if there is some other alternative?

159

Obdicut Mon, Nov 21, 2011 12:35:22pm

re: #158 chunkymonkey

Why do you think the Democrats are insane?

160

Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Mon, Nov 21, 2011 12:35:59pm

re: #158 chunkymonkey

I did not say this. Look, this is not rocket science. I think the GOP and the Dems are both insane. What I want to know is if Charles thinks the Dems are all that, or if there is some other alternative?

I think the Dem party is incredibly lame. Insane, however? Why?

161

wrenchwench Mon, Nov 21, 2011 12:37:30pm

re: #158 chunkymonkey

I did not say this. Look, this is not rocket science. I think the GOP and the Dems are both insane. What I want to know is if Charles thinks the Dems are all that, or if there is some other alternative?

Charles! Chunkymonkey wants to know if you want to move into his head! He has a vacancy!

162

chunkymonkey Mon, Nov 21, 2011 12:53:57pm

re: #159 Obdicut

Why do you think the Democrats are insane?

re: #160 Sergey Romanov

I think the Dem party is incredibly lame. Insane, however? Why?

Because they are driving us off a financial cliff and the repercussions are going to be very serious. They are anti-liberty and pro-bureaucracy. Not that the GOP is any different. So what is the alternative? The GOP at least pretends to backs up issues that are more important to me and the Dems do not. Not much of a choice there.

163

WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Mon, Nov 21, 2011 12:55:06pm

re: #162 chunkymonkey

talking point
talking point
talking point
talking point
talking point
talking point

Take the talk radio schtick elsewhere, chump

164

mikec6666 Mon, Nov 21, 2011 1:01:23pm

re: #47 Gus 802

Ditto. I never noticed that.

165

Obdicut Mon, Nov 21, 2011 1:08:59pm

re: #162 chunkymonkey

Because they are driving us off a financial cliff and the repercussions are going to be very serious.

The repurcussions of our situation are already serious. Things are already crappy. A lot of that is because of the Bush tax cuts widening the deficit, the deregulation of the financial markets, and the stupid, stupid attempts to cut spending during a recession.

They are anti-liberty and pro-bureaucracy.

That doesn't mean anything.

166

Martinsmithy Mon, Nov 21, 2011 1:19:48pm

A companion piece in New York Magazine by Jonathan Chait, about whiny liberals who are never happy.

The two pieces are meant to be read together.

167

Martinsmithy Mon, Nov 21, 2011 1:23:26pm

As for the Republicans, to claim that they are eternally "hopeless" is to misunderstand both the political ramifications of a two-party system, and the psychological aversion to continuing actions that result in continued defeat and devastation.

Our two-party system is an inevitable result of a "first past the post" electoral system for federal and virtually all state legislative bodies. There are ways around this inevitability as we can see in Canada, where a regional party (Bloc Quebecois) or a party strong mainly in urban areas (New Democrats) can survive, or in Great Britain, where the Liberal Democrats manage to survive because of the spasms of ideological rigidity from the two main parties (although they never get anywhere near the number of seats in Parliament when compared to the percentage of the national vote they win). But there is no sign of regional parties arising in the U.S., and the Democrats have not gone to ideological extremes as the Republicans have, so I don't see a third party rising in the U.S. at this time.

Which means that, in a two party system where one of the parties is Center-Left and the other if Far-Right, the far-right party is going to eventually get electorally shellacked, and remain electorally shellacked, until it reforms itself and comes to its political senses.

Which means the Republicans will eventually, perhaps reluctantly, listen to voices like those of David Frum. As Frum points out in his article, polls show that almost half of those who identify themselves as Republican don't agree with the extremist agenda currently being fulminated by the party's leaders. So, Charles, David Frum is right to not give up on his party, and he (or someone like him) will eventually be vindicated.

168

funky chicken Mon, Nov 21, 2011 1:37:31pm

re: #167 Martinsmithy

Upding because the GOP may not be eternally hopeless. It will depend, however, upon which of their extremist positions they are willing to jettison vs which they will just try to hide by using moderate-sounding language. I don't think a guy like Frum, still laboring under his adoration of the early "accomplishments" of the GW Bush administration, will be the savior of the modern GOP. It will have to be someone with enough balls and political talent to repudiate Grover Norquist and Pat Toomey and the rest of the fools who pine for the Gilded Age.

169

(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Mon, Nov 21, 2011 2:54:48pm

re: #24 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

Frum's one of the last of a dying breed, Republicans who won't accept the reality that their party essentially is the Tea Party now. But, like a battered wife, he keeps trying to make excuses for the party and for his refusal to abandon it.

Dunno about "battered wife". This "the GOP failed us and me" thing is just his stick with which he keeps being relevant.

170

(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Mon, Nov 21, 2011 2:55:47pm

re: #167 Martinsmithy

Which means that, in a two party system where one of the parties is Center-Left and the other if Far-Right, the far-right party is going to eventually get electorally shellacked, and remain electorally shellacked, until it reforms itself and comes to its political senses.

This assumes that the country itself won't move further to the right. Which I don't see impossible or even improbable.

171

chunkymonkey Mon, Nov 21, 2011 3:11:20pm

re: #165 Obdicut

Because they are driving us off a financial cliff and the repercussions are going to be very serious.

The repurcussions of our situation are already serious. Things are already crappy. A lot of that is because of the Bush tax cuts widening the deficit, the deregulation of the financial markets, and the stupid, stupid attempts to cut spending during a recession.

Sure, that's true, but that blaming Bush at this point won't make things better. I HAVEN'T HAD ONE PERSON YET SUGGEST AN ALTERNATIVE TO THE REPUBLICANS OR DEMOCRATS. Do you people seriously think the Democrat party is the answer to our problems?!?

172

chunkymonkey Mon, Nov 21, 2011 3:24:50pm

Let's simplify things. Please answer the following:

1. Do you care if ten years from now the financial situation in the USA is better or worse than it is at this moment?

2. If the Democrats had complete control of the federal government, do you think they would make the financial situation of this country better or worse over the next ten years than it is right now?

3. You all obviously think the GOP would make the financial situation of the USA worse if they had control of the federal government. If you answered NO to question 2., then what alternative do you suggest.

173

Obdicut Tue, Nov 22, 2011 3:39:14am

re: #172 chunkymonkey

Do you care if ten years from now the financial situation in the USA is better or worse than it is at this moment?

Better for whom? For people in general, or the top 1%? I mean, I care either way, but I want it to be better in general, not just for the top 1%.

If the Democrats had complete control of the federal government, do you think they would make the financial situation of this country better or worse over the next ten years than it is right now?

Better, especially since the Democrats contain a lot of very conservative people.

Can you explain why you don't think so?

174

Obdicut Tue, Nov 22, 2011 3:39:42am

re: #171 chunkymonkey

I've answered you repeatedly that yes, I do think the Democrats are the better solution, but you appear to not like that answer and keep ignoring it.

175

Stephen T. Tue, Nov 22, 2011 6:02:57am

re: #148 chunkymonkey

The president has veto power and little else when it comes to the deficit. The congress is the fundamental problem when it comes to debt and deficits. Let's see... which party had control of congress when Clinton had his whopping surplus? Oh, right.

Also, Clinton's magical surplus came during the dot-com boom. I'm sure he'd have a huge surplus at the moment.

You all are still missing the point. THE GOP IS CRAZY, WE AGREE ON THIS POINT. MY QUESTION REMAINS: WHAT'S THE ALTERNATIVE???

The alternative is to vote for politicians who are not crazy. Ignore party and look at the politicians stance on things, determine if their stance matches yours or if it comes from crazyville, vote for that politician.

Don't be surprised if you find yourself voting a straight democratic ticket.

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