NBC News: Herman Cain 'Likely to Withdraw'

NBC News: Herman Cain ‘Likely to Withdraw’

Curtains

PoliticsDecember 2011 • Views: 20,106

Yes, tomorrow looks like it will be a grim day for Herman Cain; here’s NBC’s David Gregory reporting that a source close to Cain says he’s bailing out tomorrow.

Video

Meanwhile, according to the Daily Beast’s Allison Samuels, sources close to Cain’s family say the allegations of sexual misconduct have shaken his marriage.

The Cain campaign denied any strife in the marriage, but one campaign worker speaking anonymously said that Cain doesn’t want to quit because he doesn’t want to be seen as a loser.

No matter what happens to Cain’s presidential aspirations, sources close to his family say the accusations of infidelity have already taken a significant toll on an already strained marriage.

A close friend of one Cain’s two children explained that Herman and Gloria Cain’s marriage has seen its share of trouble over the years and his attraction to other women always played a huge role in the friction.

“It never felt like a real marriage when I was around them,’’ says the friend. “Mostly he was always gone and his wife seemed to be OK with it. Not being together seemed the norm for their marriage, and Gloria didn’t seem to mind. His kids didn’t seem to mind either. ’’

The friend noted that when Cain was around, he seemed completely in his own world.

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184 comments

dragonfire1981 Fri, Dec 2, 2011 5:15:18pm

Sometimes I feel like the only man left on the planet who really does love his wife.

Mostly sane, most of the time. Fri, Dec 2, 2011 5:15:39pm

From the race.

He's likely to withdraw from the race.

This is why I hate this kind of thing.

Douchecanoe and Ryan Too Fri, Dec 2, 2011 5:15:44pm

re: #1 dragonfire1981

Sometimes I feel like the only man left on the planet who really does love his wife.

Cheer up. There's two of us.

EdDantes Fri, Dec 2, 2011 5:16:48pm

re: #3 thedopefishlives

Cheer up. There's two of us.

Three.

jaunte Fri, Dec 2, 2011 5:16:51pm

Cain doesn’t want to quit because he doesn’t want to be seen as a loser.

There's the pitch, slow and right down the middle...

dragonfire1981 Fri, Dec 2, 2011 5:16:55pm

re: #3 thedopefishlives

Cheer up. There's two of us.

Thanks for letting me know. To elaborate, I made a point of marrying a woman I truly love and working hard to keep the relationship strong and stay in love with her. These things don't go on autopilot as soon as the rings are on.

Douchecanoe and Ryan Too Fri, Dec 2, 2011 5:17:49pm

I have to admit, it actually surprises me a bit that this is putting a strain on their marriage. I always figured most people of his personality type (Type A Douchenozzle) went for a trophy wife who was okay with a philandering asshat.

dragonfire1981 Fri, Dec 2, 2011 5:19:04pm

On another note, it seems poor Herman has a lost a lot more on this than he could gain. He's spent a ton of money campaigning, blown what he had of a public image to shreds and possibly torched his marriage all due to something he HAD to have known would come out and did nothing about.

All of this for a campaign that was little more than a flash in the pan to begin with.

And Cain is supposedly a Christian who is dedicated to his marriage vows.

As a Christian who actually DOES take his vows seriously, I must say great job Herman of making us all look like dicks.

Is it any wonder women hardly trust most men anymore?

Mostly sane, most of the time. Fri, Dec 2, 2011 5:19:11pm

It seems that Gloria Cain basically has been married to a checkbook all these years.

That's very sad.

Mostly sane, most of the time. Fri, Dec 2, 2011 5:20:46pm

re: #8 dragonfire1981

Actually, my trust in men began with my father. Human, but decent. Generous, a little absent-minded. A little long-winded, but interesting.

Isn't that where it starts, really? You either trust or you don't based on what are, for you, The First People.

windsagio Fri, Dec 2, 2011 5:21:27pm

re: #9 EmmmieG

I really tend to think that people in this situation (Weiner's wife and again, Hillary come to mind) at some implicit or explicit level know whats going on and are actually pretty much okay, or at least at peace with it.

reine.de.tout Fri, Dec 2, 2011 5:22:46pm

A close friend of one Cain’s two children explained that Herman and Gloria Cain’s marriage has seen its share of trouble over the years and his attraction to other women always played a huge role in the friction.
. . .
The friend noted that when Cain was around, he seemed completely in his own world.

Why am I not a bit surprised.

re: #1 dragonfire1981

Sometimes I feel like the only man left on the planet who really does love his wife.

Nope. I am 100% certain the Roi is crazy in love with me. I don't understand why, really - but he is. And vice-versa.

Eclectic Infidel Fri, Dec 2, 2011 5:23:11pm

re: #11 windsagio

I really tend to think that people in this situation (Weiner's wife and again, Hillary come to mind) at some implicit or explicit level know whats going on and are actually pretty much okay, or at least at peace with it.

There was perhaps a trade-off, of sorts. Of course, having the whole thing made public is a different matter entirely and no doubt something that the wife did NOT sign up for.

makeitstop Fri, Dec 2, 2011 5:23:58pm

re: #4 EdDantes

Three.

Make that four.

EdDantes Fri, Dec 2, 2011 5:23:59pm

Whether these accusations are true or just dirty tricks, the damage has been done. For the sake of his family he should come clean or deny it one more time and drop out.

windsagio Fri, Dec 2, 2011 5:25:37pm

re: #15 EdDantes

Whether these accusations are true or just dirty tricks, the damage has been done. For the sake of his family he should come clean or deny it one more time and drop out.

nice 'whether' construction there, sowing the seeds of doubt!

Stanghazi Fri, Dec 2, 2011 5:28:14pm

Gloria spoke.

Ah you lovers, extra love tonight, my divorce papers are in transit.

All good, but no matter what, sad.

EdDantes Fri, Dec 2, 2011 5:28:25pm

re: #16 windsagio

nice 'whether' construction there, sowing the seeds of doubt!

I used "whether" because I have no first hand knowledge of the truth. Personally, I think there is something there.

Petero1818 Fri, Dec 2, 2011 5:32:14pm

I learned long ago that you never really know what is going on inside someone else's marriage, and when you do find out about what is going on, you should not rush to judgement. You never know people's motivations for living a life you would not choose for yourself. It is usually not as simple as you think. The nice thing is their choices have no impact on your own lives. Why people who live a life like that want to lay it bare in front of an entire nation, well that is a different question altogether.

Mostly sane, most of the time. Fri, Dec 2, 2011 5:34:39pm

re: #19 Petero1818

I learned long ago that you never really know what is going on inside someone else's marriage, and when you do find out about what is going on, you should not rush to judgement. You never know people's motivations for living a life you would not choose for yourself. It is usually not as simple as you think. The nice thing is their choices have no impact on your own lives. Why people who live a life like that want to lay it bare in front of an entire nation, well that is a different question altogether.

Make that "homes."

You'd be amazed at some of the things I've heard people tell me about their families growing up.

makeitstop Fri, Dec 2, 2011 5:35:07pm

re: #17 Stanley Sea

Gloria spoke.

Ah you lovers, extra love tonight, my divorce papers are in transit.

All good, but no matter what, sad.

I went through a divorce, and it really knocked me down for a long time. I was ready to be married for the rest of my life to my first wife, but it didn't work out that way. Devastating.

I had given up on the thought of finding anyone to spend the rest of my life with - I thought people only got one chance at that happiness. And once I'd given up, I met my current wife and surprisingly, I got a second chance.

And that's a big part of the reason why I'm true blue to my wife. I don't want to mess this marriage up, and I'll do anything to make sure I don't mess it up.

EdDantes Fri, Dec 2, 2011 5:39:03pm

re: #21 makeitstop

Some of us get better at it and appreciate what we have: others do not,e.g. Gingrich, Trump...

jaunte Fri, Dec 2, 2011 5:41:03pm

Andy Borowitz
A Farewell from Herman Cain: bit.ly/sLE2mh

...But before I go, let me share with you my final thoughts on my campaign. After months of crisscrossing this great land of ours and participating in over three hundred televised debates, I am being disqualified because of an extramarital affair. And that raises the following question: are you fucking kidding me?

I mean, let’s get real. I never heard of Libya. I didn’t know whether that CNN dude’s name was Wolf or Blitz. And my only training for running the #1 nation in the world was running its #8 pizza chain. Yet none of that, I repeat, none of that disqualified me. In fact, I was the front-fucking-runner, as long as I kept my 9-9-9 in my pants.

Stanghazi Fri, Dec 2, 2011 5:41:10pm

re: #21 makeitstop

I went through a divorce, and it really knocked me down for a long time. I was ready to be married for the rest of my life to my first wife, but it didn't work out that way. Devastating.

I had given up on the thought of finding anyone to spend the rest of my life with - I thought people only got one chance at that happiness. And once I'd given up, I met my current wife and surprisingly, I got a second chance.

And that's a big part of the reason why I'm true blue to my wife. I don't want to mess this marriage up, and I'll do anything to make sure I don't mess it up.

Smooch! Ah, my theory is pretty libertarian? I think there are 20 people out there right now you could fall in love with & happily marry. The test is keeping it real, alive and lasting. It was my first test, didn't work, I'll be ready for another sooner than later. Funny thing is how I now think Elizabeth Taylor had it right. (while before I was aghast) Onward ho!!!

nines09 Fri, Dec 2, 2011 5:41:12pm

So ends a book tour. I can hear the gears on the spin machine winding up; He only quit to save his wife more grief from them lying women and on and on and on...

Kragar Fri, Dec 2, 2011 5:42:02pm

And now, a short film chronicling the Cain Campaign;

Youtube Video

b_sharp Fri, Dec 2, 2011 5:43:58pm

re: #1 dragonfire1981

Sometimes I feel like the only man left on the planet who really does love his wife.

Don't worry, your neighbour loves your wife too.

Kragar Fri, Dec 2, 2011 5:45:55pm

re: #27 b_sharp

Don't worry, your neighbour loves your wife too.

"Congratulations, I hear your wife is pregnant!"
"Yeah, and if get my hands on the son of a bitch..."

EdDantes Fri, Dec 2, 2011 5:48:35pm

Unfortunately too many Republicans set an unrealistically high bar and fall short. The Greeks had a word for it, "hubris". Bobby Burns described it:

My son, these maxims make a rule,
An' lump them ay thegither:
The Rigid Righteous is a fool,
The Rigid Wise anither;

Dark_Falcon Fri, Dec 2, 2011 5:49:10pm

re: #17 Stanley Sea

Gloria spoke.

Ah you lovers, extra love tonight, my divorce papers are in transit.

All good, but no matter what, sad.

Sic Transit Gloria Mundi.

jaunte Fri, Dec 2, 2011 5:51:04pm

"I will survive."
-- Sic Transit Gloria Gaynor

Killgore Trout Fri, Dec 2, 2011 5:52:00pm

Yogscast.....
Saints Row the Third 2: Freefalling

Youtube Video

"I've found the sex appeal slider and it does exactly what you think it would"
Looks like my kinda game. Juvenile and silly.

ProMayaLiberal Fri, Dec 2, 2011 5:52:36pm

re: #30 Dark_Falcon

I never did hear if you thought my opinion on Pakistan was to your right. Is it?

Kragar Fri, Dec 2, 2011 5:53:16pm

re: #31 jaunte

"I will survive."
-- Sic Transit Gloria Gaynor

Sic semper tyrannosaurus

makeitstop Fri, Dec 2, 2011 5:53:38pm

re: #24 Stanley Sea

Smooch! Ah, my theory is pretty libertarian? I think there are 20 people out there right now you could fall in love with & happily marry. The test is keeping it real, alive and lasting. It was my first test, didn't work, I'll be ready for another sooner than later. Funny thing is how I now think Elizabeth Taylor had it right. (while before I was aghast) Onward ho!!!

I guess you're right. But once the first marriage fell apart I was in a pretty self-punishing mood, and I'd convinced myself that there was nothing but bad in my future.

Lucky for me, I was wrong.

Holidays are Family Fun Time Fri, Dec 2, 2011 5:54:25pm

Hey all,

Just to mention, I really like DF's idea, from the previous thread, of having Simon Cowell moderate a GOP Debate.

I may smile over that idea for a whole day.

How is everyone this Friday evening?

Kragar Fri, Dec 2, 2011 5:56:10pm

re: #36 ggt

Hey all,

Just to mention, I really like DF's idea, from the previous thread, of having Simon Cowell moderate a GOP Debate.

I may smile over that idea for a whole day.

How is everyone this Friday evening?

High on cold medicines.

Dark_Falcon Fri, Dec 2, 2011 5:56:12pm

re: #31 jaunte

"I will survive."
-- Sic Transit Gloria Gaynor

Cain isn't going to literally die behind this, but in a real sense I don't think he actually will survive. The money and reputation he has lost will be very difficult to win back (and impossible for the reputation).

ProMayaLiberal Fri, Dec 2, 2011 5:57:05pm

Someone on the Gawker Comments decided to be cute. It's in the featured area.

Romantic Heretic Fri, Dec 2, 2011 5:57:09pm

re: #29 EdDantes

Unfortunately too many Republicans set an unrealistically high bar and fall short. The Greeks had a word for it, "hubris". Bobby Burns described it:

My son, these maxims make a rule,
An' lump them ay thegither:
The Rigid Righteous is a fool,
The Rigid Wise anither;

As the Greek playwrights tirelessly pointed out, hubris is inevitably followed by nemesis.

Holidays are Family Fun Time Fri, Dec 2, 2011 5:57:54pm

re: #37 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

High on cold medicines.

I'm jealous

Holidays are Family Fun Time Fri, Dec 2, 2011 5:58:18pm

re: #38 Dark_Falcon

Cain isn't going to literally die behind this, but in a real sense I don't think he actually will survive. The money and reputation he has lost will be very difficult to win back (and impossible for the reputation).

If Tiger Woods can, anyone can.

goddamnedfrank Fri, Dec 2, 2011 5:59:52pm

re: #38 Dark_Falcon

Cain isn't going to literally die behind this, but in a real sense I don't think he actually will survive. The money and reputation he has lost will be very difficult to win back (and impossible for the reputation).

He's sold a lot of books to the suckers. This my not be how he wanted to bow out, but neither do I think he was ever in it to win it.

Holidays are Family Fun Time Fri, Dec 2, 2011 6:00:01pm

My hubby is the Type A douchebag to some (never to me). He married someone who could challenge him.

Both his and my father's did the same. I think that is why our marriage works. Our parent's marriage's worked. We watched and learned how to work it. Plus, we both want it to work. That is a big part of it.

PhillyPretzel Fri, Dec 2, 2011 6:00:20pm

re: #36 ggt
I just got home and one my amazon purchases arrived and my phones need recharging.

Kragar Fri, Dec 2, 2011 6:00:31pm

re: #41 ggt

I'm jealous

Don't be. I've felt like crap all week. Got Tylenol with codeine because I've been coughing so hard I've cramped up the muscles in my chest.

Holidays are Family Fun Time Fri, Dec 2, 2011 6:00:48pm

re: #45 PhillyPretzel

I just got home and one my amazon purchases arrived and my phones need recharging.

WOOT!

I love packages in the mail.

Targetpractice Fri, Dec 2, 2011 6:00:59pm

So Cain's campaign succumbs to the revelation that he may have been cheating on his wife for 13 years. The irony? His supporters are flocking to a man who's cheated on and divorced two wives.

Kinda sad commentary on the GOP race that the guy with the most skeletons in his closet is seen as the "front-runner."

Dark_Falcon Fri, Dec 2, 2011 6:00:59pm

re: #36 ggt

Hey all,

Just to mention, I really like DF's idea, from the previous thread, of having Simon Cowell moderate a GOP Debate.

I may smile over that idea for a whole day.

How is everyone this Friday evening?

Thanks, but I made clear that my actual suggestion (even in jest) was to have Cowell moderate a political debate in the UK. I don't want a foreigner moderating an American presidential debate, simply because this is not his country. A fun US debate would be moderated by Jon Stewart and Dennis Miller.

engineer cat Fri, Dec 2, 2011 6:01:19pm

re: #17 Stanley Sea

Gloria spoke.

Ah you lovers, extra love tonight, my divorce papers are in transit.

All good, but no matter what, sad.

alas, i am facing divorce now after nine years of marriage

i never strayed despite ample temptation

i could never have faced the pain i would have caused my wife if i had and she had found out

Charles Johnson Fri, Dec 2, 2011 6:01:30pm

I got top billing at The Week tonight: The 'unbelievably creepy' 'Women for Cain' website.

Holidays are Family Fun Time Fri, Dec 2, 2011 6:01:43pm

re: #46 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Don't be. I've felt like crap all week. Got Tylenol with codeine because I've been coughing so hard I've cramped up the muscles in my chest.

Sorry! I'm still jealous.

Just be sure to eat lots of fiber with that codeine. You could be feeling lousy for another reason in a couple of days.

Renaissance_Man Fri, Dec 2, 2011 6:02:29pm

re: #48 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

So Cain's campaign succumbs to the revelation that he may have been cheating on his wife for 13 years. The irony? His supporters are flocking to a man who's cheated on and divorced two wives.

Kinda sad commentary on the GOP race that the guy with the most skeletons in his closet is seen as the "front-runner."

It's going to be hilarious watching Moral Majority Values voters justify voting for a serial adulterer over the guy with the faithful, normal marriage. Because the serial adulterer has values.

Targetpractice Fri, Dec 2, 2011 6:02:36pm

re: #36 ggt

Hey all,

Just to mention, I really like DF's idea, from the previous thread, of having Simon Cowell moderate a GOP Debate.

I may smile over that idea for a whole day.

How is everyone this Friday evening?

Tired from a long week, and yet contemplating the night of playing Skyrim.

Holidays are Family Fun Time Fri, Dec 2, 2011 6:02:49pm

re: #49 Dark_Falcon

Thanks, but I made clear that my actual suggestion (even in jest) was to have Cowell moderate a political debate in the UK. I don't want a foreigner moderating an American presidential debate, simply because this is not his country. A fun US debate would be moderated by Jon Stewart and Dennis Miller.

I still like the idea of Simon doing it. It's such a dog-and-pony show as it is, I have a hard time taking it seriously.

Dark_Falcon Fri, Dec 2, 2011 6:03:01pm

re: #42 ggt

If Tiger Woods can, anyone can.

Well, Woods was finally able to gain back his diamond-sharp focus. Once he got that back, his winning at least some of the time was inevitable. He really is that damn good.

ProMayaLiberal Fri, Dec 2, 2011 6:04:02pm

re: #49 Dark_Falcon

Hopefully I'm not being pestery on here about this.

In any case, it's amusing to see Cain fall out of the race, and a three-time adulterer take his status.

EdDantes Fri, Dec 2, 2011 6:04:05pm

re: #46 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Mmmm... codeine.

Holidays are Family Fun Time Fri, Dec 2, 2011 6:04:12pm

re: #51 Charles

I got top billing at The Week tonight: The 'unbelievably creepy' 'Women for Cain' website.

Congrats!

jaunte Fri, Dec 2, 2011 6:05:23pm

re: #51 Charles

Hah!

"The design decision to use a carefully selected stock photo entitled, 'Four happy young women holding their thumbs up,' only reinforces that visceral Cain aura of thoughtful advocacy on behalf of womankind everywhere," says Noreen Malone at New York.

Dark_Falcon Fri, Dec 2, 2011 6:05:30pm

re: #55 ggt

I still like the idea of Simon doing it. It's such a dog-and-pony show as it is, I have a hard time taking it seriously.

I like it, but I also think it a bad idea. Elections are about the city/state/nation holding them and the moderators should reflect that fact.

jaunte Fri, Dec 2, 2011 6:06:13pm

re: #61 Dark_Falcon

So, Randy Jackson, then.

Renaissance_Man Fri, Dec 2, 2011 6:06:32pm

Seen on a billboard in northern Ohio today: "The country is broke and our president lives like a sultan."

Your country deserves so much better than this Conservative cult.

Dark_Falcon Fri, Dec 2, 2011 6:06:43pm

re: #33 ProLifeLiberal

I never did hear if you thought my opinion on Pakistan was to your right. Is it?

How did you structure that argument, again? Sorry to ask, but I've been busy.

Holidays are Family Fun Time Fri, Dec 2, 2011 6:06:54pm

re: #61 Dark_Falcon

I like it, but I also think it a bad idea. Elections are about the city/state/nation holding them and the moderators should reflect that fact.

But these debates are about a popularity contests, power and religion, IMHO.

jamesfirecat Fri, Dec 2, 2011 6:08:16pm

re: #42 ggt

If Tiger Woods can, anyone can.

Tiger Wood's success doesn't depend on people liking him, just on if he can hit a small white orb into a slightly larger hole in the ground.

Dark_Falcon Fri, Dec 2, 2011 6:08:26pm

re: #62 jaunte

So, Randy Jackson, then.

That would be fine. Add in J-Lo for some attitude and Steven Tyler for some funny stuff and you'd actually have an entertaining debate. :)

Renaissance_Man Fri, Dec 2, 2011 6:08:26pm

re: #61 Dark_Falcon

I like it, but I also think it a bad idea. Elections are about the city/state/nation holding them and the moderators should reflect that fact.

Yes, but these debates are about revenue, not elections.

ProMayaLiberal Fri, Dec 2, 2011 6:10:01pm

re: #64 Dark_Falcon

This was from Last Week:

re: #30 ProLifeLiberal

Exactly.

In 2001, we should have gone balls to the wall. Gotten Iran, Russia, and India into a meeting. Then done something that we haven't done since 1941.

Declared War on Afghanistan and Pakistan.

Using the fact of not only 9/11, but the at the time well known fact of Pakistan using cells in India to conduct Terror attacks, and well as the Mazar-i-Sharif massacre, which resulted in the death of 20 Iranian Diplomats. The Taliban were nothing more than an extension of Pakistan's government. This is seen by the fact the Taliban stripped the land of most of it's resources, and sold it to Pakistan. In fact, I would argue the Taliban was a colonial organization of a sort.

At the time, I think Pakistan's nukes were much more primitive, and we might have had the technology to knock down the missiles that were launched.

re: #32 windsagio

Pakistan DOES have a history of sending terrorists over a border. The Indian one.

Targetpractice Fri, Dec 2, 2011 6:10:21pm

re: #53 Renaissance_Man

It's going to be hilarious watching Moral Majority Values voters justify voting for a serial adulterer over the guy with the faithful, normal marriage. Because the serial adulterer has values.

No no, you know better. It's because the serial adulterer has gotten right with God and doesn't belong to a cult.

///

Petero1818 Fri, Dec 2, 2011 6:10:33pm

re: #65 ggt

But these debates are about a popularity contests, power and religion, IMHO.

Or we could just fast forward to the ultimate destination of this farce and anoint George Clooney as President.

Holidays are Family Fun Time Fri, Dec 2, 2011 6:10:46pm

I've met some women who look the other way to their husband's illicit activities. I've never quite understood it.

Someone told me that you can't pick and choose your mate's flaws. Some gamble, drink, have a disability later in life, aren't emotionally there for some reason, whatever--some cheat. You married them for better or worse.

All I know is I told my husband that he had better think long and hard before he acted because he was going to be married to me for the rest of his life.

My biggest complaint, so far, is that like so many men he doesn't go to the doctor for check-ups.

OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin Fri, Dec 2, 2011 6:11:08pm

Hooray for morally superior chistian conservative traditional family values. 9_9

If only the stupid, hypocritical bigots could all bite dust this hard, and this publicly.

/Schadenfreude

Holidays are Family Fun Time Fri, Dec 2, 2011 6:11:23pm

re: #67 Dark_Falcon

That would be fine. Add in J-Lo for some attitude and Steven Tyler for some funny stuff and you'd actually have an entertaining debate. :)

I don't even think Steve Tyler would do Bachmann.

Kragar Fri, Dec 2, 2011 6:11:46pm

Fugitive suing hostages for breach of contract

Dimmick, who hails from near Denver, is serving an 11-year sentence for bursting into Jared and Lindsay Rowley's Topeka-area home in September 2009. At the time, he was already wanted for questioning in the beating death of a Colorado man, and a chase had begun in Geary County.

The Topeka Capital-Journal reported that after the Rowleys sued their kidnapper this year for $75,000 for intruding in their home and causing emotional stress, Dimmick turned around and countersued the Rowleys in Shawnee County District Court, for breach of contract.

The couple has asked a judge to dismiss the convict's claim.

Dimmick contends he told them he was being chased by someone, most likely the police, who wanted to kill him.

Here's how his lawsuit explains it:

"I, the defendant, asked the Rowleys to hide me because I feared for my life. I offered the Rowleys an unspecified amount of money which they agreed upon, therefore forging a legally binding oral contract," Dimmick said in his hand-written court documents. He wants $235,000, in part to pay for the hospital bills that resulted from him being shot by police when they arrested him.

engineer cat Fri, Dec 2, 2011 6:12:09pm

re: #65 ggt

But these debates are about a popularity contests, power and religion, IMHO.

i think american elections long ago became tv shows

EdDantes Fri, Dec 2, 2011 6:13:09pm

re: #76 engineer dog

Bingo!

Holidays are Family Fun Time Fri, Dec 2, 2011 6:13:32pm

re: #77 EdDantes

Bingo!

Hollywood is the Soma Tablet of the current age.

Targetpractice Fri, Dec 2, 2011 6:14:34pm

re: #72 ggt

I've met some women who look the other way to their husband's illicit activities. I've never quite understood it.

Someone told me that you can't pick and choose your mate's flaws. Some gamble, drink, have a disability later in life, aren't emotionally there for some reason, whatever--some cheat. You married them for better or worse.

All I know is I told my husband that he had better think long and hard before he acted because he was going to be married to me for the rest of his life.

My biggest complaint, so far, is that like so many men he doesn't go to the doctor for check-ups.

I swear to God, I had to slap myself a second there, because that sounds like something my mother would type. Though you missed the part about how all my uncles would beat the ever-loving shit out of my old-man if he ever thought of straying.

Holidays are Family Fun Time Fri, Dec 2, 2011 6:16:43pm

re: #79 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

I swear to God, I had to slap myself a second there, because that sounds like something my mother would type. Though you missed the part about how all my uncles would beat the ever-loving shit out of my old-man if he ever thought of straying.

No brothers and my Dear Ole' Dad is gone. Have a son that is bigger than his Dad tho!

Honestly, I thinking having a good father is my biggest advantage in dealing with men and the world of men.

Dark_Falcon Fri, Dec 2, 2011 6:20:08pm

re: #69 ProLifeLiberal

This was from Last Week:

It has some merit, quite a lot in fact. But adding Iran into the mix is a fall point in my opinion. The Iranian government would have given us the finger no matter how sound our idea was. The mullahs use anti-Americanism to justify their rule and do not wish to relinquish it.

engineer cat Fri, Dec 2, 2011 6:20:49pm

re: #72 ggt

Someone told me that you can't pick and choose your mate's flaws... You married them for better or worse.

you can say that again

Someone told me that you can't pick and choose your mate's flaws.

hey, i didn't mean that literally...

Holidays are Family Fun Time Fri, Dec 2, 2011 6:20:58pm

Damnit! Puppy is watching TV with the guys. It's scary, because we think he is actually absorbing what is going on in the show.

He watches and listens!

engineer cat Fri, Dec 2, 2011 6:22:31pm

re: #83 ggt

Damnit! Puppy is watching TV with the guys. It's scary, because we think he is actually absorbing what is going on in the show.

He watches and listens!

ignatz cat watches the tv for sure. i know this because he gets rather agitated when the big cats come on screen during nature shows

Holidays are Family Fun Time Fri, Dec 2, 2011 6:24:07pm

re: #84 engineer dog

ignatz cat watches the tv for sure. i know this because he gets rather agitated when the big cats come on screen during nature shows

When they evolve opposable thumbs, we humans are screwed.

Stanghazi Fri, Dec 2, 2011 6:24:43pm

re: #50 engineer dog

alas, i am facing divorce now after nine years of marriage

i never strayed despite ample temptation

i could never have faced the pain i would have caused my wife if i had and she had found out

Hang in there. Onward ho! My lovely theory.

Mostly sane, most of the time. Fri, Dec 2, 2011 6:25:16pm

re: #48 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

So Cain's campaign succumbs to the revelation that he may have been cheating on his wife for 13 years. The irony? His supporters are flocking to a man who's cheated on and divorced two wives.

Kinda sad commentary on the GOP race that the guy with the most skeletons in his closet is seen as the "front-runner."

Newt's skeletons aren't in the closet.

They're in the front window on display.

ProMayaLiberal Fri, Dec 2, 2011 6:25:46pm

re: #81 Dark_Falcon

At the time though, things were temporarily better. There a couple civilian examples of this, but I will use a military one instead.

During the Liberation of Herat, we coordinated an operation to sack the City. Iranian Special Forces (Along with the Northern Alliance) caused a riot in the city, which forced the Taliban to flee out of the city, where they were met by our Special Forces.

The operation was overseen in Tehran. We had an opportunity for a reset with alot of nations at the time. We didn't take it.

Targetpractice Fri, Dec 2, 2011 6:25:53pm

re: #80 ggt

No brothers and my Dear Ole' Dad is gone. Have a son that is bigger than his Dad tho!

Honestly, I thinking having a good father is my biggest advantage in dealing with men and the world of men.

Always admired my folks for sticking together this long. Out of all my grandmother's kids, my mother's marriage is the only one that lasted. 30+ years and still love each other, even though they've contemplated murder at least once a month as long as I've been around.

Stanghazi Fri, Dec 2, 2011 6:26:28pm

re: #56 Dark_Falcon

Well, Woods was finally able to gain back his diamond-sharp focus. Once he got that back, his winning at least some of the time was inevitable. He really is that damn good.

Haha. I'm working in that diamond sharp focus. Ha!

Mostly sane, most of the time. Fri, Dec 2, 2011 6:26:48pm

re: #89 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

Always admired my folks for sticking together this long. Out of all my grandmother's kids, my mother's marriage is the only one that lasted. 30+ years and still love each other, even though they've contemplated murder at least once a month as long as I've been around.

My parents mutter

"humgrumnumgrumyourfatherisfullofbeanshumahumgrum"

Charles Johnson Fri, Dec 2, 2011 6:26:55pm

If Herman Cain did half of what's being alleged, he totally deserves every bit of the pain that's headed his way. He exploited and used women with a sense of entitlement, thought he could actually become President with a personal morality like this, and then showed himself a rank coward when exposed.

No sympathy here. None.

Targetpractice Fri, Dec 2, 2011 6:27:34pm

re: #87 EmmmieG

Newt's skeletons aren't in the closet.

They're in the front window on display.

True enough. Think that's why Newt's weathering the storm so well right, because he doesn't hide his demons, he makes them dance for all to see.

Holidays are Family Fun Time Fri, Dec 2, 2011 6:29:24pm

re: #89 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

Always admired my folks for sticking together this long. Out of all my grandmother's kids, my mother's marriage is the only one that lasted. 30+ years and still love each other, even though they've contemplated murder at least once a month as long as I've been around.

But, they didn't act on that contemplation!

Lidane Fri, Dec 2, 2011 6:29:34pm

The fail train rolls on:

[Link: www.freerepublic.com...]

Targetpractice Fri, Dec 2, 2011 6:30:25pm

re: #92 Charles

If Herman Cain did half of what's being alleged, he totally deserves every bit of the pain that's headed his way. He exploited and used women with a sense of entitlement, thought he could actually become President with a personal morality like this, and then showed himself a rank coward when exposed.

No sympathy here. None.

And I know some above have voiced sympathy for his wife, but I have a hard time believing that she knew nothing, suspected nothing, about his philandering. She may have not know the particulars, but she had to know that he was up to something. A 13 year affair and she knew nothing about it? That truly strains credibility with me.

Holidays are Family Fun Time Fri, Dec 2, 2011 6:31:15pm

re: #96 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

And I know some above have voiced sympathy for his wife, but I have a hard time believing that she knew nothing, suspected nothing, about his philandering. She may have not know the particulars, but she had to know that he was up to something. A 13 year affair and she knew nothing about it? That truly strains credibility with me.

No, there are women that have no clue.

Still, it takes two in a marriage . . .

Targetpractice Fri, Dec 2, 2011 6:31:43pm

re: #94 ggt

But, they didn't act on that contemplation!

If only because they'd have to clean up the body afterwards.

Kragar Fri, Dec 2, 2011 6:31:57pm

re: #95 Lidane

The fail train rolls on:

[Link: www.freerepublic.com...]

What does surprise me is that everyone who is dropping their support for Cain for his possible affair is moving to Newt who definitely had one.

whammy

100

Mostly sane, most of the time. Fri, Dec 2, 2011 6:33:03pm

re: #98 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

If only because they'd have to clean up the body afterwards.

//

My parents were afraid of getting custody of us.

101

Targetpractice Fri, Dec 2, 2011 6:33:21pm

re: #97 ggt

No, there are women that have no clue.

Still, it takes two in a marriage . . .

I guess I could believe it if the anonymous source is right about the general feel of their marriage. Sounds like a woman married to his wallet, not to him. In which case, she might have been in the dark out of personal choice, rather than because of his masterful skill at keeping secrets.

102

mikec6666 Fri, Dec 2, 2011 6:36:39pm

People often stay together for the wrong reasons. One of those is inertia. I wish the man well. These fights aren't to the death, and were never meant to be.

103

Mostly sane, most of the time. Fri, Dec 2, 2011 6:37:02pm

re: #99 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

What does surprise me is that everyone who is dropping their support for Cain for his possible affair is moving to Newt who definitely had one.

whammy

Right. As opposed to the man who's been in love with the same woman since high school, and has stayed with her through both cancer and MS.

Pardon me while I go and have a few chocolate chips.

104

Stanghazi Fri, Dec 2, 2011 6:38:09pm

re: #95 Lidane

The fail train rolls on:

[Link: www.freerepublic.com...]

From his speeches and what the campaign is doing, it is looking like they’re going full steam ahead with the campaign. But we’ll see. If Cain drops, I’m dropping the GOP.

Benefits!!

105

Stanghazi Fri, Dec 2, 2011 6:40:28pm

re: #103 EmmmieG

Right. As opposed to the man who's been in love with the same woman since high school, and has stayed with her through both cancer and MS.

Pardon me while I go and have a few chocolate chips.

I'm blank - is this anti-newt?

106

wilburs Fri, Dec 2, 2011 6:41:53pm

Not satisfied with harassing them one at a time,

Herman Cain now evidently decides to f*^k all the "Women for Cain" at once

107

Decatur Deb Fri, Dec 2, 2011 6:42:03pm

Song of Old Lovers

Youtube Video

108

OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin Fri, Dec 2, 2011 6:42:14pm

re: #96 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

And I know some above have voiced sympathy for his wife, but I have a hard time believing that she knew nothing, suspected nothing, about his philandering. She may have not know the particulars, but she had to know that he was up to something. A 13 year affair and she knew nothing about it? That truly strains credibility with me.

Not me. A lot of hetero women are masters at self-delusion, especially the socon ones. How else could they live with themselves.

109

austin_blue Fri, Dec 2, 2011 6:44:08pm

re: #105 Stanley Sea

I'm blank - is this anti-newt?

I think it might be EmmieG's marriage.

110

Killgore Trout Fri, Dec 2, 2011 6:45:04pm

Tit for Tat

Youtube Video

111

Mostly sane, most of the time. Fri, Dec 2, 2011 6:46:23pm

re: #105 Stanley Sea

I'm blank - is this anti-newt?

No, Ann Romney has been through both MS and cancer, and the Romney did actually meet in high school.

(As did my parents, and my parents do both have various assorted health issues.)

112

Stanghazi Fri, Dec 2, 2011 6:46:24pm

re: #109 austin_blue

I think it might be EmmieG's marriage.

Oh shit. Well we can tell from this blog that emmmie is a hell of a person. hubby, now, as well.

113

Mostly sane, most of the time. Fri, Dec 2, 2011 6:47:02pm

re: #112 Stanley Sea

Oh shit. Well we can tell from this blog that emmmie is a hell of a person. hubby, now, as well.

No. I was talking of Ann Romney. Sorry for the confusion.

My biggest achievement is...hmm...coming up blank here.

Probably involves food.

114

Stanghazi Fri, Dec 2, 2011 6:47:25pm

Perry oops. Not just a regular oops.

115

William Barnett-Lewis Fri, Dec 2, 2011 6:47:41pm

re: #103 EmmmieG

Huntsman? I know little about him so that's the only one I can imagine.

116

EdDantes Fri, Dec 2, 2011 6:50:45pm

re: #115 wlewisiii

Huntsman: Der jagermeister.

117

Stanghazi Fri, Dec 2, 2011 6:50:49pm

Best wishes to former Sen. & presidential nominee George McGovern, injured tonight in a fall. Stable condition in a #SD hospital. He is 89.

From West Wing Report on twittah

118

Stanghazi Fri, Dec 2, 2011 6:51:57pm

re: #115 wlewisiii

?

Huntsman? I know little about him so that's the only one I can imagine.

I really like Huntsman. He would make it sane, too.

119

EdDantes Fri, Dec 2, 2011 6:51:57pm

re: #117 Stanley Sea

Same here. Great WW2 pilot. Fearless.

120

austin_blue Fri, Dec 2, 2011 6:52:04pm

re: #111 EmmmieG

No, Ann Romney has been through both MS and cancer, and the Romney did actually meet in high school.

(As did my parents, and my parents do both have various assorted health issues.)

I am corrected on my surmise. Glad it's not your experience, EG. Must be brutal.

Wait, how do you *through* MS? Does she have one of the more fortunate syndromes that is dormant for long periods of time and isn't cumulative? If so, she is a lucky woman. MS is usually a bitch kitty of a degenerative disease.

121

Holidays are Family Fun Time Fri, Dec 2, 2011 6:53:14pm

re: #117 Stanley Sea

Best wishes to former Sen. & presidential nominee George McGovern, injured tonight in a fall. Stable condition in a #SD hospital. He is 89.

From West Wing Report on twittah

I read George McGovern's book Terry. About his daughter's battle with alcoholism and eventual death due to it.

Gut-wrenching is all I can say.

I hope him well.

122

Mostly sane, most of the time. Fri, Dec 2, 2011 6:53:45pm

re: #115 wlewisiii

?

Huntsman? I know little about him so that's the only one I can imagine.

Huntsman is also still happily with his high school sweetheart, and Perry, Bachmann, Santorum, etc. are also still married to their spouses.

Given the difficulty of maintaining a marriage in a high-stress career, this is to be commended.

123

Mostly sane, most of the time. Fri, Dec 2, 2011 6:54:17pm

re: #120 austin_blue

I am corrected on my surmise. Glad it's not your experience, EG. Must be brutal.

Wait, how do you *through* MS? Does she have one of the more fortunate syndromes that is dormant for long periods of time and isn't cumulative? If so, she is a lucky woman. MS is usually a bitch kitty of a degenerative disease.

She has been able to find treatments that help her to really cope with it.

124

Holidays are Family Fun Time Fri, Dec 2, 2011 6:54:30pm

re: #120 austin_blue

I am corrected on my surmise. Glad it's not your experience, EG. Must be brutal.

Wait, how do you *through* MS? Does she have one of the more fortunate syndromes that is dormant for long periods of time and isn't cumulative? If so, she is a lucky woman. MS is usually a bitch kitty of a degenerative disease.

Not the way it used to be. Members of my family have it and you'd never know. It can be a very awful disease. Diagnosis and Treatment are so much better than even 5 and 10 years ago.

Not everyone ends up in a wheelchair anymore.

125

Dark_Falcon Fri, Dec 2, 2011 6:56:13pm

re: #88 ProLifeLiberal

At the time though, things were temporarily better. There a couple civilian examples of this, but I will use a military one instead.

During the Liberation of Herat, we coordinated an operation to sack the City. Iranian Special Forces (Along with the Northern Alliance) caused a riot in the city, which forced the Taliban to flee out of the city, where they were met by our Special Forces.

The operation was overseen in Tehran. We had an opportunity for a reset with alot of nations at the time. We didn't take it.

I still disagree about Iran. They need us too much as an enemy. If we were not seen as hostile, the regime would lose much of the justification for its repression

126

goddamnedfrank Fri, Dec 2, 2011 6:56:38pm

re: #113 EmmmieG

No. I was talking of Ann Romney. Sorry for the confusion.

My biggest achievement is...hmm...coming up blank here.

Probably involves food.

If only everyone suffering from MS could afford dressage therapy.

Knowing Mitt has this kind of experience makes his kowtowing to the current GOP anti Affordable Care Act hysteria all the more inexcusable.

127

Holidays are Family Fun Time Fri, Dec 2, 2011 6:57:43pm

re: #126 goddamnedfrank

If only everyone suffering from MS could afford dressage therapy.

Knowing Mitt has this kind of experience makes his kowtowing to the current GOP anti Affordable Care Act hysteria all the more inexcusable.

Or even the injectable meds that can cost $1600 + a month!

With insurance --$30.

128

Dark_Falcon Fri, Dec 2, 2011 6:58:36pm

re: #117 Stanley Sea

Best wishes to former Sen. & presidential nominee George McGovern, injured tonight in a fall. Stable condition in a #SD hospital. He is 89.

From West Wing Report on twittah

Despite his sometimes moral blindness, George McGovern has always been an honest and decent man. I hope he makes a strong recovery.

129

Mostly sane, most of the time. Fri, Dec 2, 2011 6:58:56pm

re: #126 goddamnedfrank

If only everyone suffering from MS could afford dressage therapy.

Knowing Mitt has this kind of experience makes his kowtowing to the current GOP anti Affordable Care Act hysteria all the more inexcusable.

Actually, some friends of mine who now live in Maine have their autistic daughter in riding therapy. No, I don't know where the money comes from to pay for it--he's re-training for a new career, so they can't have lots of money.

130

Stanghazi Fri, Dec 2, 2011 6:59:21pm

re: #123 EmmmieG

She has been able to find treatments that help her to really cope with it.

This may be a ridiculous question, forgiveness in advance. But in your LDS community, do you know more about Mitt than we do? I mean, do you know more about him than the public does? Or is he just fellow LDS out there, like I'm a catholic and so is Newt.

Treading lightly I hope.

131

EdDantes Fri, Dec 2, 2011 6:59:39pm

The last president who was a WW2 veteran was George H.W. Bush. There will never be another.
Thanks, George!

132

Holidays are Family Fun Time Fri, Dec 2, 2011 7:00:37pm

re: #129 EmmmieG

Actually, some friends of mine who now live in Maine have their autistic daughter in riding therapy. No, I don't know where the money comes from to pay for it--he's re-training for a new career, so they can't have lots of money.

Riding Lessons can be affordable-I think I used to pay $75/month for once a week lessons. Therapy could be covered under insurance in some areas. Often you can work a cash deal with the therapist or do work in the stables as barter.

Dressage and the Show Horse world is an entirely different matter--money-wise.

133

Dark_Falcon Fri, Dec 2, 2011 7:00:46pm

re: #119 EdDantes

Same here. Great WW2 pilot. Fearless.

A veteran of the "burn jobs' against Japan, as I remember. Deadly work, though Japan did not have the same air defense ability that Germany did.

134

Kragar Fri, Dec 2, 2011 7:02:17pm

re: #127 ggt

Or even the injectable meds that can cost $1600 + a month!

With insurance --$30.

Tylenol with codeine, covered by my insurance - $5.00
Mucinex D, over the counter, not covered by insurance - $30.00

Huh?

135

Stanghazi Fri, Dec 2, 2011 7:02:32pm

re: #128 Dark_Falcon

Despite his sometimes moral blindness, George McGovern has always been an honest and decent man. I hope he makes a strong recovery.

Moral blindness? Huh? Vietnam or something like that? Clueless how McGovern and moral blindness equal. Compassionate democrat is all I remember.

136

Dark_Falcon Fri, Dec 2, 2011 7:02:48pm

re: #131 EdDantes

The last president who was a WW2 veteran was George H.W. Bush. There will never be another.
Thanks, George!

I thank both Georges for their valiant service. But I'm glad that it was Bush and not McGovern who served as president.

Still, that is only politics. He is a decent man who served with honor, and that I will always respect.

137

Mostly sane, most of the time. Fri, Dec 2, 2011 7:03:03pm

re: #130 Stanley Sea

This may be a ridiculous question, forgiveness in advance. But in your LDS community, do you know more about Mitt than we do? I mean, do you know more about him than the public does? Or is he just fellow LDS out there, like I'm a catholic and so is Newt.

Treading lightly I hope.

I know a more about what it means to say he was a bishop and stake president, and what it means to be a missionary, but personally, not really. I don't know anyone that knows him.

When they talk about Jon Huntsman's family, I know what it means to say that his grandfather was David B. Haight. An insignificant fact for you, very interesting to me.

138

Holidays are Family Fun Time Fri, Dec 2, 2011 7:03:49pm

re: #134 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Tylenol with codeine, covered by my insurance - $5.00
Mucinex D, over the counter, not covered by insurance - $30.00

Huh?

And, in Illinois, you have to show your driver's license for the "D" part of the Mucinex --nothing for the codeine.

139

Kragar Fri, Dec 2, 2011 7:03:54pm

re: #133 Dark_Falcon

A veteran of the "burn jobs' against Japan, as I remember. Deadly work, though Japan did not have the same air defense ability that Germany did.

Grandfather on my mother's side was a flamethrowerman in the Pacific during WWII. The one time he talked about it was to say he would never talk about it.

140

Kragar Fri, Dec 2, 2011 7:04:26pm

re: #138 ggt

And, in Illinois, you have to show your driver's license for the "D" part of the Mucinex --nothing for the codeine.

I had to show for both.

141

Mostly sane, most of the time. Fri, Dec 2, 2011 7:04:40pm

re: #134 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Tylenol with codeine, covered by my insurance - $5.00
Mucinex D, over the counter, not covered by insurance - $30.00

Huh?

Fluoride tablets for my kids--

30 days with insurance--$5
90 days without insurance $13.79

I am fully aware that many families might not be able to shell out the amount of money that it would take to have three or four kids in fluoride tablets, so it irritates me that my city won't fluoridate.

142

Stanghazi Fri, Dec 2, 2011 7:05:33pm

re: #137 EmmmieG

I know a more about what it means to say he was a bishop and stake president, and what it means to be a missionary, but personally, not really. I don't know anyone that knows him.

When they talk about Jon Huntsman's family, I know what it means to say that his grandfather was David B. Haight. An insignificant fact for you, very interesting to me.

Do tell, resident historian who isn't getting the big bucks to educate. :)

143

Holidays are Family Fun Time Fri, Dec 2, 2011 7:06:03pm

re: #140 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

I had to show for both.

I think the Mucinex costs more, in part, because you have to pay for packaging, marketing and advertising. There is generic/store brand and it is much cheaper, but not coated so it is much harder to swallow. I pay for the Mucinex because of it. The dosages are also different.

144

Dark_Falcon Fri, Dec 2, 2011 7:07:00pm

re: #135 Stanley Sea

Moral blindness? Huh? Vietnam or something like that? Clueless how McGovern and moral blindness equal. Compassionate democrat is all I remember.

He failed to understand the nature of the enemy was in fact willing to give the North Vietnamese what they wanted and then "beg them to give us our boys back". When the question was posed to him in that way he replied "I'll accept that. Begging is better than bombing."

Thankfully, Nixon won the election and used B-52s instead of sweet words. Linebacker 2 was very destructive, but it allowed us to leave Vietnam with a show of strength and made clear were would not simply 'roll over'. Great Powers cannot beg.

145

Mostly sane, most of the time. Fri, Dec 2, 2011 7:07:47pm

re: #140 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

I had to show for both.

I was carded for turpentine.

146

Decatur Deb Fri, Dec 2, 2011 7:10:19pm

re: #144 Dark_Falcon

He failed to understand the nature of the enemy was in fact willing to give the North Vietnamese what they wanted and then "beg them to give us our boys back". When the question was posed to him in that way he replied "I'll accept that. Begging is better than bombing."

Thankfully, Nixon won the election and used B-52s instead of sweet words. Linebacker 2 was very destructive, but it allowed us to leave Vietnam with a show of strength and made clear were would not simply 'roll over'. Great Powers cannot beg.

Image: Fall-of-Saigon.jpg

147

Stanghazi Fri, Dec 2, 2011 7:10:57pm

re: #144 Dark_Falcon

He failed to understand the nature of the enemy was in fact willing to give the North Vietnamese what they wanted and then "beg them to give us our boys back". When the question was posed to him in that way he replied "I'll accept that. Begging is better than bombing."

Thankfully, Nixon won the election and used B-52s instead of sweet words. Linebacker 2 was very destructive, but it allowed us to leave Vietnam with a show of strength and made clear were would not simply 'roll over'. Great Powers cannot beg.

it allowed us to leave Vietnam with a show of strength and made clear were would not simply 'roll over'. Great Powers cannot beg

AMAZING how America Fuck Yeah people see things so completely opposite.

148

bratwurst Fri, Dec 2, 2011 7:11:49pm

re: #144 Dark_Falcon

Thankfully, Nixon won the election

Uh...yeah.

149

Four More Tears Fri, Dec 2, 2011 7:12:37pm

re: #147 Stanley Sea

it allowed us to leave Vietnam with a show of strength and made clear were would not simply 'roll over'. Great Powers cannot beg

AMAZING how America Fuck Yeah people see things so completely opposite.

Humility is not a virtue to some.

150

Mostly sane, most of the time. Fri, Dec 2, 2011 7:14:20pm

The latest thing to snort is...bath salts.

People are weird.

151

Dark_Falcon Fri, Dec 2, 2011 7:14:42pm

re: #139 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Grandfather on my mother's side was a flamethrowerman in the Pacific during WWII. The one time he talked about it was to say he would never talk about it.

Very few such men on any side have ever talked about it. Flamethrowers are horrible weapons, but there were times they were the best weapon for the job.

Such men also took heavy losses. On Mount Suribachi, two flamethrower men were killed along with at least 10 other Marines attacking a Japanese position commanded by a IJA captain armed with a Chinese copy of an M1921 Thompson SMG. The captain's weapon was found after a third flamethrower man finally reached and torched the cave position. In a somewhat chilling postscript, the Marine who found the Thompson carried it throughout the rest of the battle of Iwo Jima and ultimately brought it home. Amnesty registered in 1968, the Suribachi Thompson is still extant and able to fire today.

152

ProMayaLiberal Fri, Dec 2, 2011 7:17:49pm

re: #125 Dark_Falcon

At that particular moment in history, I wonder if there was the chance for that to have died off. Other events that occurred:

Huge crowds attended candlelit vigils in Iran, and 60,000 spectators observed a minute's silence at Tehran football stadium.

And apparently, the BBC thought the same.

And an article on Time, which I found copied and pasted onto a forum.

153

Killgore Trout Fri, Dec 2, 2011 7:17:58pm

I'm outraged!
OBAMA OFF TO HAWAII FOR 17-DAY VACAY...
How can Obama vacation while while hippies in parks are deprived of their constitutional rights to sinks?

154

Four More Tears Fri, Dec 2, 2011 7:20:34pm

re: #153 Killgore Trout

I'm outraged!
OBAMA OFF TO HAWAII FOR 17-DAY VACAY...
How can Obama vacation while while hippies in parks are deprived of their constitutional rights to sinks?

Shouldn't they be happy he's not campaigning or fundraising?

155

Firstinla Fri, Dec 2, 2011 7:21:01pm

re: #144 Dark_Falcon

He failed to understand the nature of the enemy was in fact willing to give the North Vietnamese what they wanted and then "beg them to give us our boys back". When the question was posed to him in that way he replied "I'll accept that. Begging is better than bombing."

Thankfully, Nixon won the election and used B-52s instead of sweet words. Linebacker 2 was very destructive, but it allowed us to leave Vietnam with a show of strength and made clear were would not simply 'roll over'. Great Powers cannot beg.

You obviously have only read about all this; you certainly couldn't have lived through it. The United States did not emerge from Vietman with strength and the way we bugged out of Southeast Asia is exactly where the image and belief began that "we would just roll over." As a military man who lived through this saga in American History I have to say you are wrong.

156

Dark_Falcon Fri, Dec 2, 2011 7:21:01pm

re: #149 JasonA

Humility is not a virtue to some.

Begging when you are the stronger party by far is not a virtue. It is a sign of weakness. Weakness invites attack.

157

Holidays are Family Fun Time Fri, Dec 2, 2011 7:22:17pm

re: #156 Dark_Falcon

Begging when you are the stronger party by far is not a virtue. It is a sign of weakness. Weakness invites attack.

Just ask the women can has abused.

158

Decatur Deb Fri, Dec 2, 2011 7:23:01pm

re: #153 Killgore Trout

I'm outraged!
OBAMA OFF TO HAWAII FOR 17-DAY VACAY...
How can Obama vacation while while hippies in parks are deprived of their constitutional rights to sinks?

It is his home town, after all. Though some like the Nairobi option.

159

Four More Tears Fri, Dec 2, 2011 7:23:39pm

re: #156 Dark_Falcon

Begging when you are the stronger party by far is not a virtue. It is a sign of weakness. Weakness invites attack.

I'm not saying "begging" is the proper course of action, but puff your chest enough and it really looks like you're overcompensating for something.

160

Firstinla Fri, Dec 2, 2011 7:24:03pm

re: #156 Dark_Falcon

Begging when you are the stronger party by far is not a virtue. It is a sign of weakness. Weakness invites attack.

As the stronger partner or, if you prefer, the strongest nation on the planet the U.S. should never have had to experience 9/11.

161

Dark_Falcon Fri, Dec 2, 2011 7:25:09pm

re: #146 Decatur Deb

Image: Fall-of-Saigon.jpg

That came years later. Nixon thought he'd be able to continue to support South Vietnam, but by December of 1972 he had already ensured his loss of that support through his covering up the break-in at the Watergate.

162

Dark_Falcon Fri, Dec 2, 2011 7:26:27pm

re: #157 ggt

Just ask the women can has abused.

Very true.

163

ProMayaLiberal Fri, Dec 2, 2011 7:26:43pm

re: #160 Firstinla

Exactly. And that leads us to the sad missed opportunity in 2001.

I do wonder though. If we had done what I said, would Pakistani forces gone into Afghanistan? To try and slow done any advancing forces.

164

Decatur Deb Fri, Dec 2, 2011 7:29:14pm

re: #161 Dark_Falcon

That came years later. Nixon thought he'd be able to continue to support South Vietnam, but by December of 1972 he had already ensured his loss of that support through his covering up the break-in at the Watergate.

Better keep a couple Chinooks handy in Kabul.

165

Firstinla Fri, Dec 2, 2011 7:32:53pm

re: #163 ProLifeLiberal

The

Exactly. In and that leads us to the sad missed oppurtunity in 2001.

I do wonder though. If we had done what I said, would Pakistani forces gone into Afghanistan? To try and slow done any advancing forces.

Trying to discern the thinking cultures in Asia is much to ambitious for me. Who knows what they were thinking at the time, and what they are think now. To my way of thinking if family and friends were being killed, on the one side by drone missiles, and on the other by suicide bombings, I would press my government to do something to stop the killing. This, too, is cultural thinking.

166

OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin Fri, Dec 2, 2011 7:34:02pm

re: #159 JasonA

I'm not saying "begging" is the proper course of action, but puff your chest enough and it really looks like you're overcompensating for something.

Well, you are. The something-to-prove paranoia, pantophobia, and psychopathy would be astonishing, were it not so common.

167

jamesfirecat Fri, Dec 2, 2011 7:37:10pm

re: #144 Dark_Falcon

He failed to understand the nature of the enemy was in fact willing to give the North Vietnamese what they wanted and then "beg them to give us our boys back". When the question was posed to him in that way he replied "I'll accept that. Begging is better than bombing."

Thankfully, Nixon won the election and used B-52s instead of sweet words. Linebacker 2 was very destructive, but it allowed us to leave Vietnam with a show of strength and made clear were would not simply 'roll over'. Great Powers cannot beg.

Did linebacker 2 get us our boys back? (Honest question) Because if it didn't, or didn't achieve some other significant objective beyond killing people, it would seem more like a show of petty spite than a show of strength to me?

168

Dark_Falcon Fri, Dec 2, 2011 7:37:19pm

re: #164 Decatur Deb

Better keep a couple Chinooks handy in Kabul.

There is no Watergate scandal today, and no force in Afghanistan not directly supported by an outside power could mount the kind of attack the NVA mounted in April 1975. It's worth remembering that it was not with guerrillas in peasant hats that the North entered Saigon, but with Soviet provided tanks and APCs.

169

Dark_Falcon Fri, Dec 2, 2011 7:38:01pm

re: #167 jamesfirecat

Did linebacker 2 get us our boys back? (Honest question) Because if it didn't, or didn't achieve some other significant objective beyond killing people, it would seem more like a show of petty spite than a show of strength to me?

Yes, it did (at least those POWs we knew were POWs).

170

ProMayaLiberal Fri, Dec 2, 2011 7:38:11pm

re: #165 Firstinla

Back then, there were no drones. I'm just wondering if Pakistan's Forces would have tried to halt or slow down an advance towards Pakistan going through Afghanistan.

Someone needs to write a plausible Alternate History Story for this scenario.

171

jamesfirecat Fri, Dec 2, 2011 7:38:55pm

re: #156 Dark_Falcon

Begging when you are the stronger party by far is not a virtue. It is a sign of weakness. Weakness invites attack.

Greatest victory is the battle not fought, if begging gets you what you want you'd be a fool not to beg.

172

jamesfirecat Fri, Dec 2, 2011 7:40:16pm

re: #171 jamesfirecat

Greatest victory is the battle not fought, if begging gets you what you want you'd be a fool not to beg.

Of course on the other hand, a kind word and a gun will get you a lot farther than a kind word alone.

(Moral of the story is don't ever be afraid to consider all options from excessive violence to pathetic begging)

173

austin_blue Fri, Dec 2, 2011 7:43:11pm

re: #156 Dark_Falcon

Begging when you are the stronger party by far is not a virtue. It is a sign of weakness. Weakness invites attack.

DF, you should read a bit more. We got out because the enemy was implacable and simply *would not* be defeated. I attended Gerald Ford's speech in '75 saying that we would not save the South Vietnamese regime.

[Link: www.historyplace.com...]

He was correct. We got beaten.

174

Decatur Deb Fri, Dec 2, 2011 7:44:14pm

re: #168 Dark_Falcon

There is no Watergate scandal today, and no force in Afghanistan not directly supported by an outside power could mount the kind of attack the NVA mounted in April 1975. It's worth remembering that it was not with guerrillas in peasant hats that the North entered Saigon, but with Soviet provided tanks and APCs.

Pakistan, acting on behalf of half the Muslim world. At least we learned something running through the list of RVN leaders. We'll go before we're bled senseless and humiliated again.

175

ProMayaLiberal Fri, Dec 2, 2011 7:47:01pm

re: #173 austin_blue

Vietnam has been invaded so many time in history, they have gotten good at self-defense and resisting intruders. Wrong country to invade.

re: #174 Decatur Deb

Half may be over-estimating it. Probably more like 5-10 nations.

176

Firstinla Fri, Dec 2, 2011 7:48:33pm

re: #170 ProLifeLiberal

I have an acquaintance who teaches Southwest Asian history. She has said that there is no written sources to consult in sorting out the "tribalness" in Afghanistan and Pakistan. There are tribes that have members living on both sides of the border and have no real allegience to anything outside the tribe. It is interesting to speculate.

177

Decatur Deb Fri, Dec 2, 2011 7:50:54pm

re: #175 ProLifeLiberal

Vietnam has been invaded so many time in history, they have gotten good at self-defense and resisting intruders. Wrong country to invade.

re: #174 Decatur Deb

Half may be over-estimating it. Probably more like 5-10 nations.

How many street people in the other Muslim nations?

178

ProMayaLiberal Fri, Dec 2, 2011 7:55:20pm

re: #176 Firstinla

Certainly, in such a scenario, Pakistani Baluchistan, the area immediately north of it in Afghanistan, and the eastern 5th of the nation, along with whatever portions of the northern half would have been taken by the end of 2001. But to finish such a war would have taken a few years, I would guess.

Although, considering how close Islamabad, Karachi, and Lahore are to the Indian Border, India would have had the bloodiest fight.

re: #177 Decatur Deb

Fair point.

179

Dark_Falcon Fri, Dec 2, 2011 8:16:12pm

re: #172 jamesfirecat

Of course on the other hand, a kind word and a gun will get you a lot farther than a kind word alone.

(Moral of the story is don't ever be afraid to consider all options from excessive violence to pathetic begging)

The italicized quote was actually used by Al Capone, one of the few details of Chicago's last "Big Fellow" that dePalma got right.

180

Decatur Deb Fri, Dec 2, 2011 8:20:28pm

re: #179 Dark_Falcon

The italicized quote was actually used by Al Capone, one of the few details of Chicago's last "Big Fellow" that dePalma got right.

It's a recurring bit of AI advice in Civ4.

181

sagehen Fri, Dec 2, 2011 8:59:52pm

re: #172 jamesfirecat

Of course on the other hand, a kind word and a gun will get you a lot farther than a kind word alone.

(Moral of the story is don't ever be afraid to consider all options from excessive violence to pathetic begging)

you had that quote almost right:

"It's like I always say, you get more with a kind word and a two-by-four than with just a kind word." Marcus Cole

(and from the same episode:

Thug #1: We don't talk to security. Why should we talk to you?
Marcus Cole: Because if you don't, then in five minutes, I will be the only person at this table still standing.
[Thug starts laughing]
Marcus Cole: . Five minutes after that, I'll be the only person in this room still standing.

Marcus Cole: [to the last two conscious people in the room] Where... is... she?
Thug: I - I -I don't know! I'd tell you if I knew.
Marcus Cole: Then you know someone who knows someone who knows something! ANSWER ME!
[one thug tries to attack, Marcus knocks both of them out]
Marcus Cole: Bugger! Now I have to wait for someone to wake up.

and

Lennier: I see they trained you well back home.
Marcus Cole: Well, they said I was carrying around a lot of repressed anger.
Lennier: And?
Marcus Cole: I'm not repressed anymore!

182

WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Sat, Dec 3, 2011 2:23:52am

re: #150 EmmmieG

The latest thing to snort is...bath salts.

People are weird.

it's sold as "bath salts" but it's actually mephedrone: [Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

people are weird I guess, for doing amphetamines, this is just another amphetamine ;-)

183

Buck Sat, Dec 3, 2011 10:00:30am

re: #92 Charles

He exploited and used women with a sense of entitlement, thought he could actually become President with a personal morality like this, and then showed himself a rank coward when exposed.

Allegedly......Still allegedly.

184

Varek Raith Sat, Dec 3, 2011 10:06:08am

re: #183 Buck

Allegedly...Still allegedly.

What don't you come way upstairs and join the rest of us???

Spy Mode Auto

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