Michele Bachmann (R-Mars) Bails on Donald Trump

Wingnut debate of the century looks iffy
Wingnuts • Views: 24,436

It’s now officially an exodus: Michele Bachmann Becomes Fifth GOP Candidate To Reject Donald Trump Debate.

“We have confirmed that we are not participating,” Bachmann spokeswoman Alice Stewart told ABC News on Thursday.

Bachmann has been especially aggressive in her courting of the real estate and reality television mogul, paying several personal visits to Trump Tower over the past few months in search of an endorsement.

So, this leaves just two candidates — Newt Gingrich and Rick Santorum — who plan to show up at the Dec. 27 event in Des Moines.

Jump to bottom

509 comments
1 _RememberTonyC  Thu, Dec 8, 2011 7:09:18pm

Trump would have savaged her ... He has no respect for Bachmann.

2 freetoken  Thu, Dec 8, 2011 7:10:40pm

Poor Donald - he should stick with the casino and bimbo crowd.

3 freetoken  Thu, Dec 8, 2011 7:12:12pm

Hmm... maybe The Donald should have offered some sort of prizes for the winners?

4 Mocking Jay  Thu, Dec 8, 2011 7:12:15pm

re: #2 freetoken

Poor Donald - he should stick with the casino and bimbo crowd.

But he's already involved in politics...

5 Targetpractice  Thu, Dec 8, 2011 7:15:57pm

So, what exactly is keeping Newt from bailing? What, does he think that if he's the last guy standing, he somehow automatically "wins" the debate? Or does Lord Newt simply not have it within him to stand up to "The Donald"?

6 ElCapitanAmerica  Thu, Dec 8, 2011 7:18:21pm

Sadly, this diminishes the entertainment value of the debate greatly.

There's still a good amount of comedic value to mine with this triumvirate of clowns (Newt, Santorum and Trumpt). I say go ahead and do it ... for the children.

7 Dancing along the light of day  Thu, Dec 8, 2011 7:19:32pm

I will dare to be vulgar.
Michelle Bachman is a chicken shit.
She knows she would get her ass whipped in public.
And bails out.

8 Decatur Deb  Thu, Dec 8, 2011 7:20:48pm

"They stayed away in droves."
--Samuel Goldwyn

9 Targetpractice  Thu, Dec 8, 2011 7:23:30pm

re: #6 ElCapitanAmerica

Sadly, this diminishes the entertainment value of the debate greatly.

There's still a good amount of comedic value to mine with this triumvirate of clowns (Newt, Santorum and Trumpt). I say go ahead and do it ... for the children.

I think it better this way. Having the debate come crashing down around his ears, as every candidate realizes that their campaigns are in no way helped (possibly damaged instead) by associating with Trump, will hopefully be the last chapter in the saga that was The Donald's influence on the GOP. Let him be seen as the joke he is, then kick his ass back to his little "reality show" and speak no more of him.

10 Mocking Jay  Thu, Dec 8, 2011 7:23:40pm

What hurts that thing Trump calls a heart more, this or being pre-empted by the news of Obama getting Bin Laden?

11 freetoken  Thu, Dec 8, 2011 7:25:17pm

re: #5 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

So, what exactly is keeping Newt from bailing?

I was just reading a 15 year old PBS/VanityFair story on Gingrich, and it may have lots to offer as afar as understanding what is going on this year:

The Inner Quest of Newt Gingrich

"I think you can write a psychological profile of me that says I found a way to immerse my insecurities in a cause large enough to justify whatever I wanted it to." Newt Gingrich is coaching me on writing about himself. [...]

Newt --who once called himself "a psychodrama living out a fantasy"-- is growing interested in our dialogue. [...]

12 freetoken  Thu, Dec 8, 2011 7:28:58pm

Recommend reading that whole article. More from the article:

[...]

"Newt Gingrich is playing out a personal agenda in a public forum, and it threatens the safety, health, and security of our most vulnerable people," says Mary Kahn. "And that's what frightens me about him. Someday he might be president." Kahn, a reporter who covered Newt in the mid-70s, also spent time with him socially until the early 80s as the wife of Chip Kahn, Gingrich's former campaign manager.

The personal agenda of which Mary Kahn speaks is deeper that any philosophical or material odyssey. As the Speaker himself said, "I found a way to immerse my insecurities in a cause large enough to justify whatever I wanted it to." Inspired by the books and movies that have been his guides, Newt Gingrich has created a revolution, a mighty quest, and cast himself as hero, the John Wayne who rescues the nation from economic self-destruction and moral chaos. His childhood --shaped by the rejection by not just one but two fathers, and the manic-depressive illness of his mother-- created a psychic need so great that only the praise that attends a savior can fill the vacuum inside him. He drives himself monomaniacally, obsessed only with his goal. No amount of personal deprivation --100-hour workweeks, no vacations, no time with his wife-- diminishes his narcissistic vision of the global glory that will ultimately be his prize. [...]

This need to be a savior will brush off whatever Donaldisms are thrown his way.

13 Petero1818  Thu, Dec 8, 2011 7:30:34pm

None of these idiots are inclined to debate Newt any more than they have to. The nicest part of this whole thing is that Trump is such an A hole that he might actually run as an independent candidate just to punish the GOP for what I am certain he views as a grand betrayal.

14 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Thu, Dec 8, 2011 7:33:06pm

Aw, Newt is trapped.

15 jaunte  Thu, Dec 8, 2011 7:33:17pm

re: #12 freetoken

"I'm a mythical person," says Newt, no stranger to revolutions. "I had a period of thinking that I would have been called 'Newt the McPherson,' as in Robert the Bruce." He is referring to his childhood, when he strongly identified with his biological father, Newton McPherson.

"Robert the Bruce," Newt continues, "is the guy who would not, could not, avoid fighting...He carried the burden of being Scotland." Like the Bruce, Newt feels he must carry the burden of being his nation.

"What makes me unusually intense is that I personalize the pain of war, the pain of children being killed, the pain of a 16-year-old who has been permanently cheated by his school and cannot read."

A little janitorial work should clear that pain right up.

16 jaunte  Thu, Dec 8, 2011 7:34:08pm

'Newt the McPherson'

Lol.

17 Petero1818  Thu, Dec 8, 2011 7:35:24pm

re: #12 freetoken

Its hard to believe that it is not an Onion article.

18 Robert O.  Thu, Dec 8, 2011 7:37:04pm

The GOP suddenly finds the sense to rid themselves of Donald Trump. Sadly, they are still very far from finding the sense to ditch a bigger burden called Grover Norquist.

19 Petero1818  Thu, Dec 8, 2011 7:39:40pm

After reading that article and learning of Newt's obsession with movies and heroic figures, all I can think is that he is basically America's version of Kim Jong Il. Pretty freaky stuff.

20 ProGunLiberal  Thu, Dec 8, 2011 7:39:59pm

I am upstairs now.

I recently saw a story about Hamas moving out of Syria. This has the first implication. Hamas thinks that, in the long term, Al-Assad has no future.

More interesting though is the nations they are moving to, and the response. They are moving to Egypt and Qatar. The fact the US and Israel haven't done anything publicly is interesting.

21 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Dec 8, 2011 7:41:09pm

re: #18 Robert O.

The GOP suddenly finds the sense to rid themselves of Donald Trump. Sadly, they are still very far from finding the sense to ditch a bigger burden called Grover Norquist.

Well, attaching the Keystone pipeline to the payroll tax bill was a good way to deal with the realities of Norquist. It sets up a way for both parties to offend a key base element in passing the cut: If Republicans take a hit for raising taxes, the Democrats will likewise anger the environmental left by building the pipeline. Or they can pull both options, if which case nobody gets the blowback.

22 Petero1818  Thu, Dec 8, 2011 7:44:53pm

"Are you an emotional person?"
"Oh yeah, very emotional," Newt declares.
"Compassionate?" I venture.
"I'm not sure what the word means." Newt frowns.

I smell an Obama ad......

23 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Dec 8, 2011 7:48:27pm

re: #20 ProLifeLiberal

I am upstairs now.

I recently saw a story about Hamas moving out of Syria. This has the first implication. Hamas thinks that, in the long term, Al-Assad has no future.

More interesting though is the nations they are moving to, and the response. They are moving to Egypt and Qatar. The fact the US and Israel haven't done anything publicly is interesting.

It might be a good idea to let them into Qatar, and then have the Qatari government turn on them suddenly. Call it the "Hotel California" strategy.

24 ProGunLiberal  Thu, Dec 8, 2011 7:50:25pm

re: #23 Dark_Falcon

It's an interesting turn of events. Also, Turkey is now in a Trade War with Syria.

Also, I would have to imagine that Hamas knows the US (and by extension Israel) will be watching them when they move to these nations.

25 Petero1818  Thu, Dec 8, 2011 7:54:35pm

re: #24 ProLifeLiberal

It's an interesting turn of events. Also, Turkey is now in a Trade War with Syria.

Also, I would have to imagine that Hamas knows the US (and by extension Israel) will be watching them when they move to these nations.

Not much to say about Egypt. Hamas operates with impunity there and it is a porous border with Gaza. Its only getting easier for Hamas to operate within Egypt. Qatar is a different story, and the regime will be watching fairly closely is my guess.

26 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Dec 8, 2011 7:56:04pm

re: #24 ProLifeLiberal

It's an interesting turn of events. Also, Turkey is now in a Trade War with Syria.

Also, I would have to imagine that Hamas knows the US (and by extension Israel) will be watching them when they move to these nations.

They know, but where such a transit involves a passage by small boat or car, I would suggest we arrange for them to have a rendezvous with an MQ-9 Reaper.

27 Targetpractice  Thu, Dec 8, 2011 8:04:52pm

re: #21 Dark_Falcon

Well, attaching the Keystone pipeline to the payroll tax bill was a good way to deal with the realities of Norquist. It sets up a way for both parties to offend a key base element in passing the cut: If Republicans take a hit for raising taxes, the Democrats will likewise anger the environmental left by building the pipeline. Or they can pull both options, if which case nobody gets the blowback.

Not really. It's the GOP once again engaging in hostage-taking, tying the payroll extension to Keystone-XL as a means of forcing Obama to make a deal. If he refuses, they claim he's opposing not only jobs, but letting people's taxes go up. If he agrees, they claim it was a "bipartisan" effort and assure voters that they always supported extending the cuts, but wouldn't do it unless Obama supported a "jobs bill."

28 ProGunLiberal  Thu, Dec 8, 2011 8:05:02pm

re: #25 Petero1818

True, however we have many more eyes and ears in Egypt. Hamas will be able to get away with much less now. Perhaps, while they are weak, we use the opportunity to get an agreement. While everything is in disarray, use the oppurtunity to get a very long term solution....

Except for the fact that Netanyahu and Lieberman do not believe in the word compromise.

Unrelated, TVTropes has informed me of a weapon that can be used against the Religious wing of the Republican Party:

Islamic and Christian fundamentalists are generally opposed to each other, with the subscribing to opposing religions and all. However, creationist works and arguments critical of Darwinism tend to pass between both groups, as do tracts critical of homosexuality.

Paint the Religious Fundamentalists here as the Christian Salafis, and explain who the Salafis are. Then, tie this to the anti-abortion violence (among other types of violence).

29 justaminute  Thu, Dec 8, 2011 8:05:30pm

O/T You wanna hear something funny and interesting. My husband was just on an Iranian site. They claim that the drone that Iran claimed they shot down actually went down on the border with Iran and Afghanistan but landed on the Afghanistan side. They claim the members of the Taliban were paid to drag it over on the Iranian side.

They are showing films of the drone, I saw it. Doesn't look shot down to me. But they think the US has planted some kind of tracking device on it and if they take it to some secure location, their location won't be secure any longer. Now that's funny, they think this drone is a Trojan horse.

30 ProGunLiberal  Thu, Dec 8, 2011 8:07:30pm

re: #29 justaminute

That doesn't surprise me. Although, if Iran did pay the Taliban to do this, it shows how warped things have gotten in just 10 years.

31 Targetpractice  Thu, Dec 8, 2011 8:08:08pm

re: #29 justaminute

O/T You wanna hear something funny and interesting. My husband was just on an Iranian site. They claim that the drone that Iran claimed they shot down actually went down on the border with Iran and Afghanistan but landed on the Afghanistan side. They claim the members of the Taliban were paid to drag it over on the Iranian side.

They are showing films of the drone, I saw it. Doesn't look shot down to me. But they think the US has planted some kind of tracking device on it and if they take it to some secure location, their location won't be secure any longer. Now that's funny, they think this drone is a Trojan horse.

Yeah, Iran's "recollection" of events keeps changing with each passing day. My boss showed me the picture this afternoon and we both got a chuckle about how the drone they "shot down" is totally intact, the only "problem" that we could see being that it needed a good wash.

32 Varek Raith  Thu, Dec 8, 2011 8:10:49pm

re: #31 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

Yeah, Iran's "recollection" of events keeps changing with each passing day. My boss showed me the picture this afternoon and we both got a chuckle about how the drone they "shot down" is totally intact, the only "problem" that we could see being that it needed a good wash.

That, and it didn't even look like a RQ170. Too many details missing.
:P

33 freetoken  Thu, Dec 8, 2011 8:14:15pm

Is it weird for someone (me) to conclude that all these cooking "competition" reality shows are really nothing more than pornography?

34 Targetpractice  Thu, Dec 8, 2011 8:14:38pm

re: #32 Varek Raith

That, and it didn't even look like a RQ170. Too many details missing.
:P

Pentagon says they lost one, so I'm guessing that's as close as we're going to get to confirmation.

I'm waiting for the "outrage" from the wingnuts that Obama "let" Iran get their hands on our precious stealth technology, and his failure to carpet bomb the country is "proof" that he's too soft on defense.

35 Varek Raith  Thu, Dec 8, 2011 8:14:42pm

Keystone Pipeline. TransCanada has a habit of wildly inflating job numbers.
Image: keystone5.jpg

36 justaminute  Thu, Dec 8, 2011 8:16:37pm

re: #31 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

Now they have it on display with all of these banners around it. Like they did the embassy in Tehran. But it looked like it might be open for public display, but at the same time they are so mistrustful of it. It looked like a done that landed, not in any way reflecting what you would expect if it lost contact with the controllers. That drone did not crash it was safely landed in some way. No wonder they think it is a Trojan.

37 Varek Raith  Thu, Dec 8, 2011 8:17:39pm

re: #34 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

Pentagon says they lost one, so I'm guessing that's as close as we're going to get to confirmation.

I'm waiting for the "outrage" from the wingnuts that Obama "let" Iran get their hands on our precious stealth technology, and his failure to carpet bomb the country is "proof" that he's too soft on defense.

I dunno, I mean, I know we lost one.
I'm just not convinced that Iran is showing the drone that we lost.
It looks wrong to my untrained eyes.

38 ProGunLiberal  Thu, Dec 8, 2011 8:22:12pm

re: #34 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

Never mind a 2 minute wiki search reveals that Iran may be sorely disappointed when it comes to getting any tech.

39 William Barnett-Lewis  Thu, Dec 8, 2011 8:22:36pm

re: #34 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

Pentagon says they lost one, so I'm guessing that's as close as we're going to get to confirmation.

I'm waiting for the "outrage" from the wingnuts that Obama "let" Iran get their hands on our precious stealth technology, and his failure to carpet bomb the country is "proof" that he's too soft on defense.

I'm reminded of how, back a few years ago, we learned of a soviet espionage operation against industrial targets dealing with oil & gas pipelines. Allegedly we allowed intentionally inaccurate material to be "stolen" by the Soviets causing their intended major gas line to Europe as well as several important Siberian oil lines to never work correctly.

We know the Chinese are striving to catch up in stealth. And we know that anything that Iran captured would go there quickly. 1+1=???

;)

40 Targetpractice  Thu, Dec 8, 2011 8:24:28pm

re: #37 Varek Raith

I dunno, I mean, I know we lost one.
I'm just not convinced that Iran is showing the drone that we lost.
It looks wrong to my untrained eyes.

All I've seen so far has been "artist renditions" and long-range photos that are make it hard to see specific details, so I'm open to it being a real one. But the condition that it's on while on display, as well with the seeming discomfort shown to it, does bring a lot into question.

A lot of the point behind the public display is much like past incidents of US spy and stealth planes being shot down, namely to demonstrate to us (the West) that America's technological superiority is not absolute. Although, in past cases, the bird was usually a pile of bits and pieces rather than an intact plane.

41 Varek Raith  Thu, Dec 8, 2011 8:25:57pm

re: #40 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

All I've seen so far has been "artist renditions" and long-range photos that are make it hard to see specific details, so I'm open to it being a real one. But the condition that it's on while on display, as well with the seeming discomfort shown to it, does bring a lot into question.

A lot of the point behind the public display is much like past incidents of US spy and stealth planes being shot down, namely to demonstrate to us (the West) that America's technological superiority is not absolute. Although, in past cases, the bird was usually a pile of bits and pieces rather than an intact plane.

Written all over this odd story.
Image: Atrapitis.gif
:)

42 justaminute  Thu, Dec 8, 2011 8:26:43pm

re: #37 Varek Raith

Well the site is Mardomreport.net but the site is in Farsi and it is on the right side at the top of the page but if you want to watch the video you click on a blue link. My husband says the reports states that it is also on U Tube.

43 Ming  Thu, Dec 8, 2011 8:28:37pm

A bit off-topic... often these days I ask myself, how did the right wing get to be so crazy? I remember when the GOP was the party of Ronald Reagan, not Sarah Palin. Of George H. W. Bush, not George W. Bush.

I recently came across [Link: justice.danielfaulkner.com...] and I realized that the excesses of the left wing may well have been the fertile soil for the growth of the insane right wing. In particular, the emotional statement at [Link: justice.danielfaulkner.com...] is practically a classic compilation of all the cliches that you can hear on Fox News about liberals, but in this particular case, they're actually true!

I'm not saying that I agree with today's right-wing. I don't see how persecuting gays and shutting down women's health clinics like Planned Parenthood accomplish anything positive. I don't see how you raise revenue by cutting taxes on the top 1%. I don't see how opposing everything President Obama does helps the country.

I'm just saying that the website reminded me that not so many years ago, liberals were the crazy ones. (And many liberals still are crazy, but I'm more concerned about the crazy right wing because they seem so much better-organized.)

Anyway, the above is just a thought, as I try to understand possible roots of right-wing craziness. I'm sure there are many other such roots.

44 Varek Raith  Thu, Dec 8, 2011 8:28:54pm

re: #42 justaminute

Well the site is Mardomreport.net but the site is in Farsi and it is on the right side at the top of the page but if you want to watch the video you click on a blue link. My husband says the reports states that it is also on U Tube.

Yeah, I've seen the vids.
What raises red flags for me is that it's in good condition.
It didn't crash and it wasn't shot down. Did we gift wrap it to them? Some dude flew to the wrong airfield?
/
;)

45 William Barnett-Lewis  Thu, Dec 8, 2011 8:31:11pm

re: #44 Varek Raith

Yeah, I've seen the vids.
What raises red flags for me is that it's in good condition.
It didn't crash and it wasn't shot down. Did we gift wrap it to them? Some dude flew to the wrong airfield?
/
;)

Ice from water in the fuel can clog the fuel lines in the real world. A command to shutdown the fuel supply is indistinguishable from that...

46 Varek Raith  Thu, Dec 8, 2011 8:32:27pm

re: #45 wlewisiii

Ice from water in the fuel can clog the fuel lines in the real world. A command to shutdown the fuel supply is indistinguishable from that...

I'll stick with my wild speculations thankyouverymuch!
It was the Asgard.
NEXT!

47 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Thu, Dec 8, 2011 8:33:21pm

re: #46 Varek Raith

I'll stick with my wild speculations thankyouverymuch!
It was the Asgard.
NEXT!

Non-functional heat ray and some bacteria got into it.

;)

48 Targetpractice  Thu, Dec 8, 2011 8:33:55pm

re: #38 ProLifeLiberal

Never mind a 2 minute wiki search reveals that Iran may be sorely disappointed when it comes to getting any tech.

Well, nothing about the outside of the plane is really all that special. The skin, perhaps, but I doubt Iranian industry is capable of reproducing much beyond a crude copy. Same goes for the motor, which is likely OTS. What would be of interest is the electronics and sensors inside, as well as the operating system. Iran won't be able to copy them, but they could sell them to China, Russia, or any other nation looking to get a look inside a modern US spy drone.

49 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Thu, Dec 8, 2011 8:35:25pm

re: #48 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

Well, nothing about the outside of the plane is really all that special. The skin, perhaps, but I doubt Iranian industry is capable of reproducing much beyond a crude copy. Same goes for the motor, which is OTS. What would be of interest is the electronics and sensors inside, as well as the operating system. Iran won't be able to copy them, but they could sell them to China, Russia, or any other nation looking to get a look inside a modern US spy drone.

Which, as mentioned in older comments a few days back, could be concealing the US military version of Stux-net or something nastier. So said drone could really be a Trojan Horse.

50 justaminute  Thu, Dec 8, 2011 8:37:03pm

re: #44 Varek Raith

Yeah, I've seen the vids.
What raises red flags for me is that it's in good condition.
It didn't crash and it wasn't shot down. Did we gift wrap it to them? Some dude flew to the wrong airfield?
/
;)

Well if it was dragged into Iran, we sure don't have the border secure. One would hope we had kind of an idea where it landed. And adjusted our satellites to look for it. That's why bombing Iran while we are in Afghanistan seems kind of fanciful.

51 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Dec 8, 2011 8:37:08pm

re: #43 Ming

Ronald Reagan was one of the primary offenders, attacking the middle class (Reaganomics = lunacy or evil, take your pick) and pandering so completely to the evangelical social conservative right that now evangelicals dominate the base


Jesse Helms? Ed Meese? They've always been like this

52 ProGunLiberal  Thu, Dec 8, 2011 8:40:06pm

And, here is where I go from being overly political at to quasi-normal.

I just found Taylor Swift's new song. I love it.

53 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Dec 8, 2011 8:45:05pm

re: #35 Varek Raith

Keystone Pipeline. TransCanada has a habit of wildly inflating job numbers.
Image: keystone5.jpg

And environmental activists have a habit of wildly overstating environmental risks.

I say let Obama have his surtax if the pipeline can be built now. It will provide jobs in both the US and Canada, and it will lower our oil costs.

54 freetoken  Thu, Dec 8, 2011 8:45:35pm

re: #43 Ming

A bit off-topic... often these days I ask myself, how did the right wing get to be so crazy? I remember when the GOP was the party of Ronald Reagan, not Sarah Palin. Of George H. W. Bush, not George W. Bush.

I thought we've been through this already.

RWR begat (metaphorically) Sarah Palin parallels GHWB begetting (physically) GWB.

RWR had attached to his campaign, but even more so after he was elected, a group of fundamentalist Christians who liked to believe, and sold themselves to the public but especially to the GOP, as the source of doctrine for RWR and his administration.

This ran in parallel to, and mixed with, the growing influence of the transforming self-declared libertarians, followers of the misfit Ayn Rand, onto the policy institutions upon which the GOP turned for propaganda.

Sarah Palin is the product of both of these influences, and her kind represents the fruition of religious hyper-individualism.

That historically this played out in the GOP structure and not the Democratic party structure probably has a lot to do with JFK and Nixon. Nixon's eventual playing of the Southern Strategy was the kick in the pants needed to transform party politics in this country, which was held off by JFK simply by the power of his personality. Thus post 1968, and especially after 1972, the GOP became the party that swept up the confederates/neo-confederates - that is, all those against a strong central government, one of the founding beliefs of the Republican party back in the 19th century.

That the fundamentalists in this country identified with Ronald Reagan instead of Jimmy Carter is one of those perverse things that happens in hyper-religious atmospheres, where emotional bonds are not built on rational decision making but some deep (probably evolution-driven) psychological need. In this case RWR was a strong father figure, i.e. Deity substitute, while Carter was perceived as weak and thus not fitting to sit on the throne.

This all despite the fact that Carter was more professedly a Christian than RWR ever was.

So here we are in 2011 with a role reversal of the 19th century, with a party that goes by the name of "Republican" but eschews much of the nature of the original meaning of that organization.

That fringe element thinking as been around in American politics is not new, and as I keep repeating the US has from its very beginning been a highly religious nation, and with religious fervor comes much strange thinking. And we see that played out today in our political theater (and it is theater.)

55 austin_blue  Thu, Dec 8, 2011 8:49:42pm

re: #3 freetoken

Hmm... maybe The Donald should have offered some sort of prizes for the winners?

Like a job?

56 Altermite  Thu, Dec 8, 2011 8:50:38pm

re: #53 Dark_Falcon

And environmental activists have a habit of wildly overstating environmental risks.

Love ya, DF, but when exactly? I mean, some have, sure, but its hardly unheardof- and there is a world of difference between some nut overstating things and someone basing their claims on an EPA style impact assessment.

57 William Barnett-Lewis  Thu, Dec 8, 2011 8:50:55pm

re: #53 Dark_Falcon

and it will lower our oil costs.

If you really believe that, DF, well, nothing personal, but I have a bridge for sale. Cheap! ;)

58 Varek Raith  Thu, Dec 8, 2011 8:51:29pm

re: #55 austin_blue

Like a job?

Unsportsmanlike conduct, 15 yard penalty.
:P

59 Altermite  Thu, Dec 8, 2011 8:53:19pm

holy balls. Jack abramoff is on the colbert report

60 Interesting Times  Thu, Dec 8, 2011 8:53:29pm

re: #53 Dark_Falcon

I say let Obama have his surtax if the pipeline can be built now. It will provide jobs in both the US and Canada, and it will lower our oil costs.

Hint. Free for the taking.

61 austin_blue  Thu, Dec 8, 2011 8:54:24pm

re: #54 freetoken

I thought we've been through this already.

RWR begat (metaphorically) Sarah Palin parallels GHWB begetting (physically) GWB.

RWR had attached to his campaign, but even more so after he was elected, a group of fundamentalist Christians who liked to believe, and sold themselves to the public but especially to the GOP, as the source of doctrine for RWR and his administration.

This ran in parallel to, and mixed with, the growing influence of the transforming self-declared libertarians, followers of the misfit Ayn Rand, onto the policy institutions upon which the GOP turned for propaganda.

Sarah Palin is the product of both of these influences, and her kind represents the fruition of religious hyper-individualism.

That historically this played out in the GOP structure and not the Democratic party structure probably has a lot to do with JFK and Nixon. Nixon's eventual playing of the Southern Strategy was the kick in the pants needed to transform party politics in this country, which was held off by JFK simply by the power of his personality. Thus post 1968, and especially after 1972, the GOP became the party that swept up the confederates/neo-confederates - that is, all those against a strong central government, one of the founding beliefs of the Republican party back in the 19th century.

That the fundamentalists in this country identified with Ronald Reagan instead of Jimmy Carter is one of those perverse things that happens in hyper-religious atmospheres, where emotional bonds are not built on rational decision making but some deep (probably evolution-driven) psychological need. In this case RWR was a strong father figure, i.e. Deity substitute, while Carter was perceived as weak and thus not fitting to sit on the throne.

This all despite the fact that Carter was more professedly a Christian than RWR ever was.

So here we are in 2011 with a role reversal of the 19th century, with a party that goes by the name of "Republican" but eschews much of the nature of the original meaning of that organization.

That fringe element thinking as been around in American politics is not new, and as I keep repeating the US has from its very beginning been a highly religious nation, and with religious fervor comes much strange thinking. And we see that played out today in our political theater (and it is theater.)

VERY nice.

62 Targetpractice  Thu, Dec 8, 2011 8:54:47pm

re: #53 Dark_Falcon

And environmental activists have a habit of wildly overstating environmental risks.

I say let Obama have his surtax if the pipeline can be built now. It will provide jobs in both the US and Canada, and it will lower our oil costs.

If the promise is 200,000 jobs, but only 5,000 temporary jobs are created, was it worth trampling all over the people of Nebraska to make it so?

And lower oil prices? How?

63 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Dec 8, 2011 8:58:02pm

This is Not Good:

Pakistan army believes NATO attack planned: reports

SLAMABAD (Reuters) - A senior Pakistani military officer said a NATO air strike that killed 24 Pakistani troops on the border with Afghanistan last month was pre-planned, newspapers reported on Friday, in comments likely to fuel tensions with the United States.

Major General Ashfaq Nadeem, director general of military operations, also said Pakistan, a strategic U.S. ally, would deploy an air defence system along the border to prevent such attacks, the newspapers said.

The newspapers said he made the remarks to a Senate committee on defence on Thursday. Military officials were not immediately available to confirm he had made the comments.

The Daily Times said Nadeem described the attack as a plot while another newspaper quoted him as saying it was a "pre-planned conspiracy" against Pakistan.

"We can expect more attacks from our supposed allies," Nadeem was quoted as saying during his briefing, The Express Tribune reported.

U.S. and Pakistani officials have offered differing initial accounts of what happened in the attack.

Pakistan said it was unprovoked, with officials calling it an act of blatant aggression -- an accusation the United States has rejected.

Paranoid delusions are only fun to witness when they involve internet nutballs. When men in positions of responsibility have them, they're down right scary.

64 windsagio  Thu, Dec 8, 2011 8:58:15pm

re: #61 austin_blue

the fact that the 'christian right' rejected Carter is one of the most ugly ironies in the history of the country.

65 Interesting Times  Thu, Dec 8, 2011 8:58:30pm

re: #62 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

And lower oil prices? How?

Not a damn penny. It isn't even profitable to extract toxic tar sands goop unless oil hovers at least around $70-75 a barrel! (only to go higher as extraction gets more difficult and expensive)

66 austin_blue  Thu, Dec 8, 2011 9:00:14pm

re: #53 Dark_Falcon

And environmental activists have a habit of wildly overstating environmental risks.

I say let Obama have his surtax if the pipeline can be built now. It will provide jobs in both the US and Canada, and it will lower our oil costs.

Actually, the Governor of Nebraska is in favor of the pipeline, he just doesn't want it to run through the Sand Hills. Which is why he asked Obama to delay approval.

67 Targetpractice  Thu, Dec 8, 2011 9:01:06pm

re: #65 publicityStunted

Not a damn penny. It isn't even profitable to extract toxic tar sands goop unless oil hovers at least least $70-75 a barrel! (only to go higher as extraction gets more difficult and expensive)

Yep. Not to mention that, in order to pump the gunk, you have to cut it with oil from other sources. And the end-point for this pipeline is a major hub for oil exportation to Europe and Latin America. So we've no guarantee that we'll see even half of the projected jobs created and are being asked to gamble the Midwest's water supply on an oil pipeline that may simply make it easier for Canada to export its oil to everybody but us.

68 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Dec 8, 2011 9:01:21pm

I wasn't able to get here yesterday, but my coworker Sam had a great line after a sales prospect he had turned out to be a Paulian:

It's disturbing when a man with a Masters in Engineering says he supports Ron Paul and says that President Obama reminds him of Chairman Mao.

69 Varek Raith  Thu, Dec 8, 2011 9:01:55pm

re: #68 Dark_Falcon

I wasn't able to get here yesterday, but my coworker Sam had a great line after a sales prospect he had turned out to be a Paulian:

FIRE CAN'T MELT STEEL!!1111!1ty

70 justaminute  Thu, Dec 8, 2011 9:02:48pm

re: #53 Dark_Falcon

And environmental activists have a habit of wildly overstating environmental risks.

I say let Obama have his surtax if the pipeline can be built now. It will provide jobs in both the US and Canada, and it will lower our oil costs.

Well, since the pipeline goes straight threw Oklahoma, I hate it. We are already having problems with fracking. They propose to build it underground. And if it develops a leak then what? Sorry about the farm land and your water supply.

But OK won't stop it, they have already sold their souls to the oil company. Devon energy is building in OKC the tallest phallic symbol that is 3 times taller than any other building. Plus the oil is so heavy it pollutes more than any other oil. I like water. I don't particularly care for earthquakes. I don't want it. But if it's built I think some kind of bond with a large cash backing should be put up. Put their money where their mouth is.

71 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Dec 8, 2011 9:06:05pm

And there's some new baddies on the loose in my old neighborhood of Lincoln Park. But this pack is a literal pack, of three coyotes.

72 freetoken  Thu, Dec 8, 2011 9:06:31pm

re: #70 justaminute

They propose to build it underground.

OK already has so many pipelines crisscrossing the state that I'm surprised anyone would notice one more.

OK is home to the central hub of American pipelines, and is the delivery point (nominally) for many petroleum contracts.

73 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Dec 8, 2011 9:09:51pm

re: #70 justaminute

Fracking doesn't cause earthquakes, don't worry about that. But a reasonable amount of money in escrow might be a good idea.

But don't knock skyscrapers, bless them instead. They symbolize power and achievement and they truly show a city has arrived. But I'm from Chicago, where they were first invented, so YMMV.

74 ProGunLiberal  Thu, Dec 8, 2011 9:10:39pm

re: #63 Dark_Falcon

This was expected to happen.

On September 12, 2001, Pakistan knew exactly where Bin Laden was. They always knew where he was. They evacuated the Taliban.

Sunday, November 25 - Northern Alliance gained control of Kunduz, the last Taliban stronghold in Northern Afghanistan, but only after Pakistani aircraft rescue several thousand Taliban and Al-Qaeda fighters and their military advisers.[8][9] The Taliban then controlled less than 25% of the country, mainly around Kandahar in the south.

We should have had a true declaration of war against Pakistan and their colonial puppet and a super-coalition invasion. (NATO+CIS+India+Iran). Iran was far more sane, and willing to reconcile then.

75 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Thu, Dec 8, 2011 9:10:47pm

re: #73 Dark_Falcon

They symbolize power and achievement

lmao

76 Digital Display  Thu, Dec 8, 2011 9:11:43pm

re: #72 freetoken

OK already has so many pipelines crisscrossing the state that I'm surprised anyone would notice one more.

OK is home to the central hub of American pipelines, and is the delivery point (nominally) for many petroleum contracts.

Yea.. I don't have issues with pipelines.. They are everywhere and generally pretty safe..
I read here in Oklahoma since fracking started the number of earthquakes have tripled.. Small ones but nevertheless.. I think a closer study is in order

77 windsagio  Thu, Dec 8, 2011 9:11:52pm

re: #74 ProLifeLiberal

I'm trying to think of a scenario under which the US would be willing to ally with Iran, and failing :p

78 Altermite  Thu, Dec 8, 2011 9:12:03pm

re: #73 Dark_Falcon

Fracking doesn't cause earthquakes, don't worry about that. But a reasonable amount of money in escrow might be a good idea.

But don't knock skyscrapers, bless them instead. They symbolize power and achievement and they truly show a city has arrived. But I'm from Chicago, where they were first invented, so YMMV.

USGS disagrees as far as fracking/earthquakes. Certainly appears to be some sort of positive correlation between frequency of the two, even if specific incidents are not always possible to link.

79 ProGunLiberal  Thu, Dec 8, 2011 9:12:35pm

re: #75 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

I'm going to agree with DF on skyscrapers. We need greater population density if we are going to go green. Skyscrapers are part of the solution.

80 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Dec 8, 2011 9:13:02pm

re: #37 Varek Raith

I dunno, I mean, I know we lost one.
I'm just not convinced that Iran is showing the drone that we lost.
It looks wrong to my untrained eyes.

They may have a shot-up wreck they're looking over for reverse engineering possibilities, and a nice shiny fake to show people.

81 Interesting Times  Thu, Dec 8, 2011 9:13:23pm

re: #73 Dark_Falcon

Fracking doesn't cause earthquakes, don't worry about that.

You might consider doing a bit more research on the subject:

Oklahoma was hit by what is being called a record-breaking 5.6-magnitude earthquake last night, and it is the second in close succession. This has brought up questions about the practicing of fracking- or hydraulic fracturing- in the state...There are normally about fifty earthquakes in Oklahoma every year, but there has been a sharp increase in recent years with there being 1,047 quakes last year. There is no official explanation as to why this has begun to happen.

82 Targetpractice  Thu, Dec 8, 2011 9:13:40pm

re: #74 ProLifeLiberal

This was expected to happen.

On September 12, 2001, Pakistan knew exactly where Bin Laden was. They always knew where he was. They evacuated the Taliban.

We should have had a true declaration of war against Pakistan and their colonial puppet and a super-coalition invasion. (NATO+CIS+India+Iran). Iran was far more sane, and willing to reconcile then.

Yeah, but Pakistan also has something approaching a formidable, modern military. As well as a nuclear stockpile, which scares even the most hawkish politicians white. A war with Pakistan would have been long, bitter, bloody, and made the unpopularity of our last two wars seem almost celebratory by comparison.

83 ProGunLiberal  Thu, Dec 8, 2011 9:13:44pm

re: #77 windsagio

The Battle of Herat

We were close to a real change back then. Hardliners on both sides fucked it up.

84 justaminute  Thu, Dec 8, 2011 9:14:04pm

re: #72 freetoken

OK already has so many pipelines crisscrossing the state that I'm surprised anyone would notice one more.

OK is home to the central hub of American pipelines, and is the delivery point (nominally) for many petroleum contracts.

Well, we are also home to a lot of Super Fund sites too. My aunt and uncle are so old and they won't move from their property while all the homes surrounding it has been condemned. You should see the area around there. It was a large neighborhood of 1950's homes. I can't believe they won't move. But now it resembles a bombing site that is two or three years older interspersed with a house here and there. It sad.

85 austin_blue  Thu, Dec 8, 2011 9:14:15pm

Night all. Sweet scaly dreams.

86 windsagio  Thu, Dec 8, 2011 9:14:26pm

re: #83 ProLifeLiberal

The Battle of Herat

We were close to a real change back then. Hardliners on both sides fucked it up.

I honestly didn't remember that at all, awesome link.

87 freetoken  Thu, Dec 8, 2011 9:14:45pm

re: #76 HoosierHoops

I seem to recall that his week's AGU meeting had some talks around fracking. Like with building damns and reservoirs, these kind of quakes are relatively small and at the surface (geologically speaking), and not the big plate movements that cause great quakes. But still, for the people in the area it would be important.

Even more important, I would think, is the problem of water quality, especially given the continued drying of that part of the continent and the use of non-recharging fossil water.

88 Kronocide  Thu, Dec 8, 2011 9:14:50pm

Fracking doesn't cause earthquakes?

Humans can't change the weather either.

So, there.

89 Targetpractice  Thu, Dec 8, 2011 9:14:53pm

re: #79 ProLifeLiberal

I'm going to agree with DF on skyscrapers. We need greater population density if we are going to go green. Skyscrapers are part of the solution.

Always found something fascinating about arcologies.

90 windsagio  Thu, Dec 8, 2011 9:15:02pm

still bush was too busy wanting to Invade Iran to seriously think about any alliance.

91 Varek Raith  Thu, Dec 8, 2011 9:16:04pm

re: #89 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

Always found something fascinating about arcologies.

Always built them in Sim City.

92 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Dec 8, 2011 9:16:14pm

re: #77 windsagio

I'm trying to think of a scenario under which the US would be willing to ally with Iran, and failing :p

I'm sure LaHaye and Jenkins could think of something.

93 ProGunLiberal  Thu, Dec 8, 2011 9:16:36pm

re: #82 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

Not back then. The number of nukes back then was smaller. In addition, the military is just as fractured ethnically as the nation.

Yes, it would have been the hardest war for us since WWII. However, it would have been very multi-lateral. And very worth it.

94 goddamnedfrank  Thu, Dec 8, 2011 9:17:58pm

Newt Gingrich's doodles reveal his inner psycho. FYI if he ever starts extolling the virtues of Huey Lewis & the News, just run like hell.

95 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Thu, Dec 8, 2011 9:18:03pm

re: #79 ProLifeLiberal

I'm going to agree with DF on skyscrapers. We need greater population density if we are going to go green. Skyscrapers are part of the solution.

Yeah but that's different than showing off and trying to intimidate everyone else via shows of power. Such con stupidity.

96 ProGunLiberal  Thu, Dec 8, 2011 9:18:15pm

re: #90 windsagio

I honestly think that was more Cheney and Rumsfeld.

The invasion that would have happened would have looked a weird as hell.

97 freetoken  Thu, Dec 8, 2011 9:18:36pm

Meanwhile, down in Durban, it's the last day of talks in COP17 (though they will spill over into Saturday morning.)

It looks like the primary achievement will be a document that states that previous documents should be consolidated and have this resolved either next year or 4 years from now:
[Link: unfccc.int...]

So there are 3 options on going forward, one of which has 3 variants, and all the options have sub-options.

This is the accomplishment of 17 years of talks.

98 ProGunLiberal  Thu, Dec 8, 2011 9:20:14pm

re: #95 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

Oh, I see no harm in a dick-waving contest with skyscrapers.

99 freetoken  Thu, Dec 8, 2011 9:20:34pm

re: #94 goddamnedfrank

As the article I linked upstream notes, Gingrich is on a savior-mission. Yeah, kind of psycho.

100 justaminute  Thu, Dec 8, 2011 9:21:07pm

re: #73 Dark_Falcon

Fracking doesn't cause earthquakes, don't worry about that. But a reasonable amount of money in escrow might be a good idea.

But don't knock skyscrapers, bless them instead. They symbolize power and achievement and they truly show a city has arrived. But I'm from Chicago, where they were first invented, so YMMV.

Then why did Arkansas ban fracking? Well I would be impressed if every time it's reported our food stamp usage didn't go up. Or American Airlines weren't trying to get out of their contract so they could lower wages and benefits. Or that the largest employer paid more than the minimum. That being Walmart. Or they would find other things besides education to cut. As it is we have a 20% college graduation rate now. But boy we sure now how to build churches. All that property removed from the tax rolls. My state is filled with rubes.

101 Targetpractice  Thu, Dec 8, 2011 9:21:57pm

re: #93 ProLifeLiberal

Not back then. The number of nukes back then was smaller. In addtion, the military is just as fractured ethnically as the nation.

Yes, it would have been the hardest war for us since WWII. However, it would have been very multi-lateral. And very worth it.

True, the fracture lines that would have hampered or prevented a unified Pakistani defense would also have made post-war operations like some mutated mix of Afghanistan and Iraq. And the proposed multilateral effort would have broken down into bickering over the course for post-occupation Pakistan, especially when the question came up of the importance of sharia law.

102 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Dec 8, 2011 9:22:33pm

re: #98 ProLifeLiberal

Oh, I see no harm in a dick-waving contest with skyscrapers.

As long as it doesn't turn out like Beauvais Cathedral, heck, go for it.

103 Interesting Times  Thu, Dec 8, 2011 9:22:46pm

re: #98 ProLifeLiberal

Oh, I see no harm in a dick-waving contest with skyscrapers.

Image: 2.jpg

Image: strange-skyscrapers-norman-foster-gherkin.jpg

Image: Architektur-Skyscraper-Hong-Kong-HongKong-Island-Skyscrapers-510x510.jpg

104 ProGunLiberal  Thu, Dec 8, 2011 9:31:47pm

re: #102 SanFranciscoZionist

They really need to finish it.

re: #103 publicityStunted

You should see the picture of the Florida State Capitol.

re: #101 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

India is close to both the CIS and Iran. I think we could have found a way to figure it out. Of course, Pakistan would have been partitioned. Afghanistan has a much longer history of existence. At points, Afghanistan was more powerful than either Iran/Persia and India.

105 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Dec 8, 2011 9:33:30pm

re: #93 ProLifeLiberal

Not back then. The number of nukes back then was smaller. In addition, the military is just as fractured ethnically as the nation.

Yes, it would have been the hardest war for us since WWII. However, it would have been very multi-lateral. And very worth it.

The problem is that we didn't have THAAD back then. Which means if Pakistan fired its nukes, at least some of them would connect.

But far more basic to the decision making process was the baseline assumption that Pakistan had been an ally and could be made one again, while Iran was seen as a dangerous enemy. Those attitudes were not unique to Colin Powell and Donald Rumsfeld, but rather were the default assumptions of the foreign policy community. And that then clarifies the reason I don't like the "go after Pakistan after 9/11" alternate history:

For that alternate history to work, it would have required such a large shift in thinking by so many people as to make its likelihood vanishingly small.

106 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Dec 8, 2011 9:36:35pm

re: #104 ProLifeLiberal

They really need to finish it.

re: #103 publicityStunted

You should see the picture of the Florida State Capitol.

re: #101 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

India is close to both the CIS and Iran. I think we could have found a way to figure it out. Of course, Pakistan would have been partitioned. Afghanistan has a much longer history of existence. At points, Afghanistan was more powerful than either Iran/Persia and India.

At points but not often. Afghanistan has always only retained its independence because major powers almost never deemed it their primary focus. The few who did make it their main focus and attacked in large numbers (Alexander the Great, Genghis Khan, Timur the Lame) were all able to effectively seize and hold Afghanistan.

107 windsagio  Thu, Dec 8, 2011 9:39:47pm

re: #106 Dark_Falcon

At points but not often. Afghanistan has always only retained its independence because major powers almost never deemed it their primary focus. The few who did make it their main focus and attacked in large numbers (Alexander the Great, Genghis Khan, Timur the Lame) were all able to effectively seize and hold Afghanistan.

...

yes, the 2 Ango-Afghan wars and the Soviet invasion totally didn't happen.

Do you even read this stuff?

108 William Barnett-Lewis  Thu, Dec 8, 2011 9:43:13pm

re: #105 Dark_Falcon

The problem is that we didn't have THAAD back then. Which means if Pakistan fired its nukes, at least some of them would connect.

But far more basic to the decision making process was the baseline assumption that Pakistan had been an ally and could be made one again, while Iran was seen as a dangerous enemy. Those attitudes were not unique to Colin Powell and Donald Rumsfeld, but rather were the default assumptions of the foreign policy community. And that then clarifies the reason I don't like the "go after Pakistan after 9/11" alternate history:

For that alternate history to work, it would have required such a large shift in thinking by so many people as to make its likelihood vanishingly small.

Even with our latest and greatest toy, we have to work from the presumption that some will connect. With any nuclear power, some warheads will get through.

My worst nightmare at the top of the "Reagan will kill us all" 80's? A frieghter pulls into LA or SF. In it's hold is a 10 Megaton device. Around it is however many tons of sand that the ship can hold. Lots and lots of silicon.

See, radioactive isotopes of Silicon have a fairly short half life. That means the energy is kicked out _fast_. Radioactive silicon is very hot. A ship full would make anything west of the Sierra Nevadas look like the moon. Not even the fucking roaches would survive that...

109 ProGunLiberal  Thu, Dec 8, 2011 9:47:18pm

re: #107 windsagio

Of course, after any such partition of Pakistan, I would imagine Afghanistan would have gained some of the Territory.

110 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Dec 8, 2011 9:48:46pm

from twitter:

Marine in uniform at #OccupyBoston: "I was willing to die to protect people's rights. I'm willing to get arrested, too." via @Occupy_Boston

111 Varek Raith  Thu, Dec 8, 2011 9:49:59pm

re: #108 wlewisiii

Even with our latest and greatest toy, we have to work from the presumption that some will connect. With any nuclear power, some warheads will get through.

My worst nightmare at the top of the "Reagan will kill us all" 80's? A frieghter pulls into LA or SF. In it's hold is a 10 Megaton device. Around it is however many tons of sand that the ship can hold. Lots and lots of silicon.

See, radioactive isotopes of Silicon have a fairly short half life. That means the energy is kicked out _fast_. Radioactive silicon is very hot. A ship full would make anything west of the Sierra Nevadas look like the moon. Not even the fucking roaches would survive that...

*Jots that down for future nefarious plots*

112 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Dec 8, 2011 9:50:56pm

re: #107 windsagio

...

yes, the 2 Ango-Afghan wars and the Soviet invasion totally didn't happen.

Do you even read this stuff?

In neither case did the imperial power make Afghanistan a point of primary effort. The forces committed to the Afghan Wars by the UK were fairly small, and in both wars the UK was able to achieve its primary goal, which was to maintain Afghanistan as a buffer between Russia and India.

The Soviet Union never deployed most of its first-line forces to Afghanistan. While many of its airmobile formations were sent, the bulk of its best ground troops remained deployed opposite NATO the entire time.

113 sagehen  Thu, Dec 8, 2011 10:00:38pm

99%'ers crash a Lindsay Graham fundraiser... and y'know, he actually handled himself pretty well.

Youtube Video
114 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Dec 8, 2011 10:09:53pm

re: #113 sagehen

99%'ers crash a Lindsay Graham fundraiser... and y'know, he actually handled himself pretty well.

[Video]

You don't get to be a Colonel in the US Army Reserves by being stupid. Graham is able to think on his feet and he's also got experience as a trial lawyer. A seasoned attorney should be able to hold his own against a group of protesters.

115 ProGunLiberal  Thu, Dec 8, 2011 10:16:56pm

re: #108 wlewisiii

I'd prefer if you hadn't shared that, because now I have nightmare fuel. Also, afraid some nut will see it.

116 William Barnett-Lewis  Thu, Dec 8, 2011 10:17:05pm

G'night all.

117 Targetpractice  Thu, Dec 8, 2011 10:19:27pm

re: #115 ProLifeLiberal

I'd prefer if you hadn't shared that, because now I have nightmare fuel. Also, afraid some nut will see it.

*Furiously scribbling down notes*

//

118 ProGunLiberal  Thu, Dec 8, 2011 10:25:13pm

Listening to the song, Sparks Fly, I'm surprised at how much got below the radar. Some excerpts:

Close enough to hope you couldn't see
What I was thinking of

or

As the lights go down
Something that'll haunt me when you're not around

or

Gonna strike this match tonight
Lead me up the staircase
Won't you whisper soft and slow
I'd love to hate it
But you make it like a fireworks show

119 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, Dec 8, 2011 10:33:09pm

Hey all!

How is the evening going for you?

120 William Barnett-Lewis  Thu, Dec 8, 2011 10:33:47pm

re: #115 ProLifeLiberal

I'd prefer if you hadn't shared that, because now I have nightmare fuel. Also, afraid some nut will see it.

Been nigthtmare fuel for me for going on three decades now. I got it from unclassified government reports. Lot's of stuff that makes this look like a kid's birthday party game there if you look hard enough. Most people don't though. They really dislike discovering just how capable of evil our government really is.

"Star bomb" was what I searched on, IIRC. Back in the early 1980's though. They may well have re-classified it by now to try and keep people like me from talking about it. Oops. Guess I better wait for the FBI to show up... ;)

G'night, for real this time, all.

121 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, Dec 8, 2011 10:37:17pm

I actually had some of my Pages Posts tweeted. I'm so unused to that.

Should I celebrate? Is it a big deal?

122 ProGunLiberal  Thu, Dec 8, 2011 10:52:14pm

re: #121 ggt

Yes you should.

I found a new avatar.

123 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, Dec 8, 2011 11:05:21pm

re: #122 ProLifeLiberal

Yes you should.

I found a new avatar.

Better than Lumberjacks?

teehee

124 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, Dec 8, 2011 11:08:00pm

This pisses me off.

The more worrisome effects have to do with inhalation – and by some reports, California university police officers deliberately put OC spray down protestors throats. Capsaicins inflame the airways, causing swelling and restriction. And this means that pepper sprays pose a genuine risk to people with asthma and other respiratory conditions.

just one example.

125 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, Dec 8, 2011 11:21:31pm

I washed and dried three dogs. Brat Puppy is getting better. He cooperated with the bath, but DID NOT with the blow-dry.

Then I paid bills.

*sigh*

Am tired and going to bed.

Have a great evening/morning all!

126 engineer cat  Thu, Dec 8, 2011 11:23:47pm

is it too late in the evening for me to rag on newt summore?

127 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Thu, Dec 8, 2011 11:26:10pm

Ron Paul Campaign Ad: Ron Bless America - Conan O'Brien on TBS

Youtube Video
128 engineer cat  Thu, Dec 8, 2011 11:32:23pm

here's a thought

in a hunnert years, "gonna" and "gotta" will be considered standard english spelling, just like "don't" and "I'm" are now

"gonna" is only used for the future tense - you can say "i'm gonna go to the store" or "i'm going to go to the store", and "I'm going to the store", but you would never write "i'm gonna the store" or "i'm gonna hahvahd kollige next year"

waddiya think?

129 Kragar  Thu, Dec 8, 2011 11:39:15pm

re: #128 engineer dog

here's a thought

in a hunnert years, "gonna" and "gotta" will be considered standard english spelling, just like "don't" and "I'm" are now

"gonna" is only used for the future tense - you can say "i'm gonna go to the store" or "i'm going to go to the store", and "I'm going to the store", but you would never write "i'm gonna the store" or "i'm gonna hahvahd kollige next year"

waddiya think?

There, They're and Their will be replaced by the word theyr, whose meaning is altered by its usage in a sentence, similar to wound or wind.

130 engineer cat  Thu, Dec 8, 2011 11:43:16pm

re: #129 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

hmmm lemme think about dat

131 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Dec 8, 2011 11:51:43pm

re: #127 000G

Hilarious, and the voice is the same as in Idiocracy fake ads.

In other news of hilariousness and fakery, Novaya Gazeta has just released a batch of documents where "carousel" members (the people who travel in groups to vote for a specific candidate/party many times and also stuff the ballot boxes) complain to their "employer" that they haven't been paid. With phones, names, the detailed description of what they did on the election day. Mostly poor students.

[Link: www.novayagazeta.ru...]
[Link: www.novayagazeta.ru...]

132 engineer cat  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 12:00:59am

re: #131 Sergey Romanov

Hilarious, and the voice is the same as in Idiocracy fake ads.

In other news of hilariousness and fakery, Novaya Gazeta has just released a batch of documents where "carousel" members (the people who travel in groups to vote for a specific candidate/party many times and also stuff the ballot boxes) complain to their "employer" that they haven't been paid. With phones, names, the detailed description of what they did on the election day. Mostly poor students.

[Link: www.novayagazeta.ru...]
[Link: www.novayagazeta.ru...]

criminals have less scope to cheat the people they employ to perform criminal enterprises than honest businesspeople

cuz with criminal enterprises the employees can always say iffen you don't pay me i'll rat your ass to the cops

133 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 12:09:15am

re: #132 engineer dog

Incorrect. They can't rat him out since they're criminals too.

134 engineer cat  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 12:17:02am

re: #133 Sergey Romanov

Incorrect. They can't rat him out since they're criminals too.

when you are a criminal too you threaten to have a third party give incriminating evidence that doesn't also implicate you yourself

"yeah, see, i bet dis hear disstrick attorney would jest loooove to get his hands onna tape o' dat phone call, yeah, see?"

135 engineer cat  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 12:21:18am

newt gingrich is my cosmetologist

i will not frizz

he maketh me to lie down in free markets; he leadeth me to low wages

he restoreth my hair; he telleth me to stop using a hot comb for crissakes

yea, yeah, though i walk though the valley of a shadow of a doubt that newt and rush are looking after my best interest, i will fear no weevils, uh, weasels, uh, hairballs, uh, i mean hair loss, for thou art the real hair club for men who need to be clubbed my men with a comforting rod and staff it hurts so good

136 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 12:27:13am

re: #135 engineer dog

[Link: www.somethingawful.com...]


"With the cain train derailed and burning up chlorine gas in a school zone and frigging Perry drunk and high and gay at all times it is pretty much down to Mitch Ronalds who I hate and this bitch Newt Grinch who looks like a big fat lesbian phil donahue. He seems really smart but he smells like pepperoni all the time and constantly talks about alternate history scenarios. Bitch if I wanted to know what would have happened if the Chinese discovered America I would have asked.

137 sagehen  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 12:30:58am

[Link: ordinary-gentlemen.com...]

"It occurred to me the other day as I was leaving a comment elsewhere: if someone had written a TV show and the plot followed the current Republican primary, I would have some serious problems with it. Namely, I would pan the show as unrealistic. A joke. Liberal Hollywood’s parody of what the Republican Party is."

138 engineer cat  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 12:33:57am

re: #136 WindUpBird

but he smells like pepperoni all the time

heh

we can't have a president who looks like he tears the wrappers offa giant bags of snickers and crams them into his face

139 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 12:39:59am

re: #134 engineer dog

when you are a criminal too you threaten to have a third party give incriminating evidence that doesn't also implicate you yourself

Not the case here.

140 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 12:42:50am

re: #138 engineer dog

heh

we can't have a president who looks like he tears the wrappers offa giant bags of snickers and crams them into his face

Agustus Gloop Goes To Washington

141 boxhead  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 1:06:07am

Trump should have a reality TV show where the winner gets to be on his debate program.

142 engineer cat  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 1:10:42am

UK blamed as European Union splits over treaty to save euro currency

watch out for dropping DOW tomorrow

143 boxhead  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 1:13:20am

re: #142 engineer dog

UK blamed as European Union splits over treaty to save euro currency

watch out for dropping DOW tomorrow

I knew investing in all those Duetsch Marks were a good thing.

144 researchok  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 1:22:30am

Morning, all

145 boxhead  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 1:28:08am

re: #144 researchok

Morning, all

howdy

146 researchok  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 1:29:31am

re: #145 boxhead

How's life?

147 boxhead  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 1:31:23am

re: #146 researchok

How's life?

good... I just watched a new Beavis and Butthead. you?

148 researchok  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 1:36:18am

Pretty good, minus the the new B&B.

I suspect I'll live...
//

149 freetoken  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 1:37:26am

re: #143 boxhead

Europe splits over fiscal union, UK isolated

Europe divided on Friday in a historic rift over building a fiscal union to preserve the euro, with a large majority of countries led by Germany and France agreeing to move ahead with a separate treaty, leaving Britain isolated.

Twenty-three of the 27 leaders agreed to pursue tighter integration with stricter budget rules for the single currency area, but Britain said it could not accept proposed amendments to the EU treaty after failing to secure concessions for itself.

[...]

Looks like the same old story... UK not wanting to lose some of its sovereignty to a central authority.

Speaking of the same old story, down in Durban the COP17 is peaking with the expected drama, with not a lot of progress (in the big picture.)

According to the pressers/tweets, it appears the US, China, and India are all refusing to agree to a EU "road map" that would call for a legally binding treaty on all nations, a treaty that would embody the numerous pledges to reduce emissions. The US of course didn't ratify the previous treaty (KP), and under the KP China and and India didn't have (numerically defined) obligations to reduce emissions.

The US proposal that every nation should just wing it until some time in the future makes most of the delegations unhappy, even though it is likely the reality of the situation. The lack of any legally binding arrangement if obviously the outcome of the US Senate refusing to even consider any treaty that doesn't treat all nations the same (especially China). China and India's unwillingness to go along with a legal treaty has more to do I think with each other's competition to become fully developed and they know that means (for the foreseeable future) increasing climate change affecting actions (e.g., emissions.)

So the question is just how it will all play out in the propaganda war. The US often plays the villain in this arena, mostly in the view of NGOs and the Bolivarians, but the reality of life is that the G20+OPEC do not want changes to business as usual in how they structure the world economy, even if the other 100+ nations on the planet want it otherwise.

150 boxhead  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 1:41:30am

re: #148 researchok

Pretty good, minus the the new B&B.

I suspect I'll live...
//

lol.... it was ok... Mike Judge seems to like bagging on Jersey Shore. As if they needed help to made fun of.

heh

151 boxhead  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 1:45:18am

re: #149 freetoken

arrrrrrr.... USA should be leading instead of hanging in the back with the window licking and gangsta crowd.

152 researchok  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 1:45:19am

re: #149 freetoken

Did anyone really believe Durban would be a cathartic experience?

Wouldn't it have been better if the real negotiations took place behind closed doors?

153 boxhead  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 1:47:37am

re: #152 researchok

Did anyone really believe Durban would be a cathartic experience?

Wouldn't it have been better if the real negotiations took place behind closed doors?

I am not a fan of closed doors policy. If our representatives are scared to vote with their conscience in public, then what good are they?

154 researchok  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 1:47:50am

re: #151 boxhead

Way too much theater, IMO.

155 researchok  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 1:49:05am

re: #153 boxhead

Sometimes deals are best made behind closed doors.

A lot of 'for public consumption' could be avoided.

156 boxhead  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 1:50:41am

re: #154 researchok

Way too much theater, IMO.

I thought that was an quick way to describe the idiot regimes and the smart ones that have dubious motives. see, way more words :)

157 freetoken  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 1:51:56am

re: #152 researchok

Wouldn't it have been better if the real negotiations took place behind closed doors?

Yes. But the door was opened at the beginning (Rio) and there is no way to close it now.

re: #151 boxhead

The US has often played the "bad guy" role, the heel, in these negotiations, but that is expected when you're the guy at the top of the heap. What the easily manipulated youth don't understand is that is the role of every alpha-unit in a structure.

The Greek delegation is giving a presser right now, along with some African group speakers. He brings up the Financial Crisis quite a bit, but he is pretty clearly an experienced diplomat and is basically saying a lot without actually telling a lot.

158 boxhead  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 1:52:59am

re: #155 researchok

Sometimes deals are best made behind closed doors.

A lot of 'for public consumption' could be avoided.

I know what you are saying, I am not of fan of secrecy except for national security.

159 boxhead  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 1:56:25am

re: #157 freetoken

Yes. But the door was opened at the beginning (Rio) and there is no way to close it now.

re: #151 boxhead

The US has often played the "bad guy" role, the heel, in these negotiations, but that is expected when you're the guy at the top of the heap. What the easily manipulated youth don't understand is that is the role of every alpha-unit in a structure.

The Greek delegation is giving a presser right now, along with some African group speakers. He brings up the Financial Crisis quite a bit, but he is pretty clearly an experienced diplomat and is basically saying a lot without actually telling a lot.

It is the choice of the alpha to either press their advantage or act like a real leader and think of the pack. I would submit that only human alphas act in ways that are a negative to the pack for self profit.

160 researchok  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 1:58:44am

re: #157 freetoken

With public negotiations under a GOP administration, the base will accept no deal.

With public negotiations under a Dem administration, the base will accept any deal.

Exaggerations of course, but you get my gist.

161 boxhead  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 2:00:52am

re: #160 researchok

If there is a GOP administration, the base will accept no deal.

Under a Dem administration, the base will accept any deal.

Exaggerations of course, but you get my gist.

I am still hoping that we can find a way to act like adults. I just don't see it anytime soon.

162 researchok  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 2:01:36am

re: #161 boxhead

I am still hoping that we can find a way to act like adults. I just don't see it anytime soon.

Great Expectations.

163 boxhead  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 2:03:39am

re: #162 researchok

Great Expectations.

I have to hope. The alternative sucks. Well, I do have family in other, stable, and prosperous countries. :)

164 freetoken  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 2:09:44am

re: #162 researchok

re: #161 boxhead

Americans though don't want to take the measure to cut emissions. To get down to the European/Japanese per capita output of CO2, for instance, American's would have to cut their output by more than half. Technically possible, but that would mean massive expenditures in wind and nuke power (both of which are cheaper than PV solar), massive expenditures in transportation (rail in cities), and retrofitting most buildings with much better insulation, etc. All very costly, which is why we haven't done it so far (although the long term financial costs of mass transportation and better buildings are less the current American hyper-individualism of cars, we prefer the latter over saving money.)

So, the whole affair is DOA as far as the US in concerned. Yet we go to these negotiations because the rest of the nations are there, and we negotiate to gain as much advantage for ourselves, or at least to make sure we don't get disadvantaged by others.

That is what all nations' representatives do at these things. Yet Qatar or KSA aren't usually singled out for criticism because on the world stage they only play one role, while the US plays multiple rolls and is expected to be the leader. So when we don't lead other nations complain.

165 researchok  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 2:31:04am

re: #164 freetoken

World climate talks on brink of disaster

Rich and poor nations at climate change talks are lining up behind a European Union plan for achieving a global pact on cutting greenhouse gas emissions by 2015, but delegates said time was running out to reach a deal before talks end on Friday.

Ministers made incremental progress overnight toward a deal that many envoys see as being a political agreement, with states promising to start talks on a new regime of binding cuts in the gases blamed for global warming and environmental devastation.
They say that anything less would mean the two-week-long, United Nations negotiations in the South African city of Durban were a disaster, Reuters reported.

"Time in Durban is now really short," EU Climate Commissioner Connie Hedegaard told reporters after talks that stretched into the early hours of Friday morning.

166 RogueOne  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 2:34:47am

Good Morning Folks

167 RogueOne  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 2:40:24am

re: #147 boxhead

good... I just watched a new Beavis and Butthead. you?

I think they've been very good. I'm enjoying having them back.

168 boxhead  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 2:46:07am

re: #164 freetoken

I think Americans do.... Corporate America does not. And I really think those corporations do not give a rat's ass about America, nor the world.

169 boxhead  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 2:48:45am

re: #167 RogueOne

I think they've been very good. I'm enjoying having them back.

Mike Judge can be as good a satirist as South Park. I would love to a collaboration between Judge, Stone and Parker.

170 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 2:57:45am

Europe’s Transition From Social Democracy to Oligarchy

Bankers do not want to take responsibility for bad loans. This poses the financial problem of just what policy-makers should do when banks have been so irresponsible in allocating credit. But somebody has to take a loss. Should it be society at large, or the bankers?

It is not a problem that bankers are prepared to solve. They want to turn the problem over to governments – and define the problem as how governments can “make them whole.” What they call a “solution” to the bad-debt problem is for the government to give them good bonds for bad loans (“cash for trash”) – to be paid in full by taxpayers. Having engineered an enormous increase in wealth for themselves, bankers now want to take the money and run – leaving economies debt ridden. The revenue that debtors cannot pay will now be spread over the entire economy to pay – vastly increasing everyone’s cost of living and doing business.

Why should they be “made whole,” at the cost of shrinking the rest of the economy? The bankers’ answer is that debts are owed to labor’s pension funds, to consumers with bank deposits, and the whole system will come crashing down if governments miss a bond payment. When pressed, bankers admit that they have taken out risk insurance – collateralized debt obligations and other risk swaps. But the insurers are largely U.S. banks, and the American Government is pressuring Europe not to default and thereby hurt the U.S. banking system. So the debt tangle has become politicized internationally.

So for bankers, the line of least resistance is to foster an illusion that there is no need for them to accept defaults on the unpayably high debts they have encouraged. Creditors always insist that the debt overhead can be maintained – if governments simply will reduce other expenditures, while raising taxes on individuals and non-financial business.

The reason why this won’t work is that trying to collect today’s magnitude of debt will injure the underlying “real” economy, making it even less able to pay its debts. What started as a financial problem (bad debts) will now be turned into a fiscal problem (bad taxes). Taxes are a cost of doing business just as paying debt service is a cost. Both costs must be reflected in product prices. When taxpayers are saddled with taxes and debts, they have less revenue free to spend on consumption. So markets shrink, putting further pressure on the profitability of domestic enterprises. The combination makes any country following such policy a high-cost producer and hence less competitive in global markets.

This kind of financial planning – and its parallel fiscal tax shift – leads toward de-industrialization. Creating ECB or IMF inter-government fiat money leaves the debts in place, while preserving wealth and economic control in the hands of the financial sector. Banks can receive debt payments on overly mortgaged properties only if debtors are relieved of some real estate taxes. Debt-strapped industrial companies can pay their debts only by scaling back pension obligations, health care and wages to their employees – or tax payments to the government. In practice, “honoring debts” turns out to mean debt deflation and general economic shrinkage.

This is the financiers’ business plan. But to leave tax policy and centralized planning in the hands of bankers turns out to be the opposite of what the past few centuries of free market economics have been all about. The classical objective was to minimize the debt overhead, to tax land and natural resource rents, and to keep monopoly prices in line with actual costs of production (“value”). Bankers have lent increasingly against the same revenues that free market economists believed should be the natural tax base.

171 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 2:58:02am
So something has to give. Will it be the past few centuries of liberal free-market economic philosophy, relinquishing planning the economic surplus to bankers? Or will society re-assert classical economic philosophy and Progressive Era principles, and re-assert social shaping of financial markets to promote long-term growth with minimum costs of living and doing business?

At least in the most badly indebted countries, European voters are waking up to an oligarchic coup in which taxation and government budgetary planning and control is passing into the hands of executives nominated by the international bankers’ cartel. This result is the opposite of what the past few centuries of free market economics has been all about.

[Link: michael-hudson.com...]

First published in German on F.A.Z.net: [Link: www.faz.net...]

F.A.Z., for those who don't know it: [Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

172 freetoken  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 3:07:23am

re: #171 000G

... European voters are waking up to an oligarchic coup in which taxation and government budgetary planning and control is passing into the hands of executives nominated by the international bankers’ cartel. This result is the opposite of what the past few centuries of free market economics has been all about.

Populist movements in the past have brought about national socialism or other hyper-nationalistic movements, and often to disastrous consequences. That the Greek government now includes what are effectively neo-nazis ought to be sobering.

This urge to blame bankers, or in the US version "wall street", is not new. Indeed, American populism was blaming Wall Street a century ago for various ills.

My own fear is that our current set of leaders (in the major nations, like the G20) are way too timid in addressing the hard issues, thus paving a way for even more reactionary movements to arise when problems blow up into major crises.

173 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 3:15:25am

re: #172 freetoken

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

174 boxhead  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 3:18:24am

re: #170 000G

Isn't that what we are seeing here in USA?

175 EdDantes  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 3:21:24am

re: #173 000G

Another Nazi song.

Youtube Video
176 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 3:22:40am

re: #172 freetoken

This urge to blame bankers, or in the US version "wall street", is not new. Indeed, American populism was blaming Wall Street a century ago for various ills.

If the problems within the national economies are not readily identified and fixed by lawmakers, regulators, prosecutors and the judiciary, then indeed the fallout from the financial crisis at the root of all this will be identified as intentional, as "a feature, not a bug" by the populace and "blame" will be dished out aplenty.

177 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 3:24:57am

re: #174 boxhead

Isn't that what we are seeing here in USA?

Read the whole article. There are substantial differences between the EU/Eurozone and the US. We do not have a EU-level financial department (i.e. an equivalent of the US Treasury) and we also do not have a real central bank (i.e. an equivalent of the Federal Reserve – the ECB is a central bank in name only).

178 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 3:32:02am

re: #167 RogueOne

I think they've been very good. I'm enjoying having them back.

the werewolf/homeless man episode with the warren zevon awooo "Well, let's go get some girls!"

179 boxhead  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 3:32:40am

re: #177 000G

Read the whole article. There are substantial differences between the EU/Eurozone and the US. We do not have a EU-level financial department (i.e. an equivalent of the US Treasury) and we also do not have a real central bank (i.e. an equivalent of the Federal Reserve – the ECB is a central bank in name only).

True, but we both have ass hat corps that are trying real hard to achieve that oligarchy.

180 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 3:33:31am

re: #179 boxhead

Use your democratic means as long as you still got them.

181 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 3:33:54am

re: #170 000G

it seems like europe is more vulnerable than the USA of Extremely Negative Consequences re this banking crisis

182 boxhead  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 3:34:16am

re: #180 000G

Use your democratic means as long as you still got them.

I only got one vote... I use it early and often!

183 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 3:34:34am

re: #180 000G

Use your democratic means as long as you still got them.

no shit, right?

it feels like this election is going to become very dark

184 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 3:35:12am

re: #183 WindUpBird

no shit, right?

it feels like this election is going to become very dark

Enh. Remember the doom and gloom of the Bush elections?

185 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 3:35:54am
The primary objective in data retention is traffic analysis and mass surveillance. By analyzing the retained data governments can identify an individual's location, their associates and members of a group, such as political opponents.

From a sales brochure of Elaman, a German "security" firm, page 17, [Link: www.wikileaks.org...]

186 boxhead  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 3:36:16am

re: #184 000G

Enh. Remember the doom and gloom of the Bush elections?

I really hate to say this, but Bush would be head of the class next to these ass hats.

187 freetoken  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 3:37:35am

re: #181 WindUpBird

it seems like europe is more vulnerable than the USA of Extremely Negative Consequences re this banking crisis

Because they are not a united system of governments.

188 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 3:40:24am

re: #181 WindUpBird

it seems like europe is more vulnerable than the USA of Extremely Negative Consequences re this banking crisis

In the end it won't matter much because of the high exposure to European sovereign debt on the portfolio of American banks, combined with the ongoing TBTF status of the US banking system in general. Same reason why China cares about US liquidity.

189 RogueOne  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 3:41:41am

A couple weeks ago a paper in TX ran a multi-part special on how bad cops manage to keep their jobs. This week the Herald-Tribune in FL is doing the same. There is some really frightening stuff in here:

PT1:
SPECIAL REPORT: Florida's flawed system for policing the police
Part 1: Forty internal affairs cases would cost most police officers their jobs. But not Opa-Locka Police Sgt. German Bosque. Not in this state.
[Link: www.heraldtribune.com...]

German Bosque's personnel file looks more like a rap sheet than a résumé.

In two decades, the Opa-Locka Police Department opened 40 internal affairs cases on Bosque. Sixteen of them were for battery or excessive force.

Fired five times and arrested three, he was charged with stealing a car, trying to board an airplane with a loaded gun and driving with a suspended license.

Internal Affairs investigations found that Bosque split a man's lip with a head butt. He opened another man's head with a leg sweep and takedown. He spit in the face of a drunken, stumbling arrestee. One time, he smacked a juvenile so hard the boy's face was red and swollen the next day.

Bosque has been caught defying direct orders, lying to supervisors and falsifying police reports. Off duty, he was accused by women of domestic violence and stalking. During inspections, the agency found a counterfeit $20 bill, cocaine and crack pipes in his patrol car.

Still, Bosque has kept his badge.

They're up to Pt4. It's a long read but worth it.

190 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 3:42:17am

re: #187 freetoken

Because they are not a united system of governments.

Correction: They (meaning the EU) are a "united system of governments" but they lack a very essential instrument: A fiscal union. The NCBs also wield way too much powers, chief among them the emission of money.

191 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 3:43:33am

re: #184 000G

Enh. Remember the doom and gloom of the Bush elections?

economy is far worse, 2008 credit crisis. dark like desperate and violent, not dark like Big Contest

192 freetoken  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 3:44:04am
MP3 Audio
193 freetoken  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 3:44:21am

And I'm not listening to the naysayers.

194 boxhead  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 3:44:25am

nite all.... keep the faith!

195 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 3:46:02am

re: #191 WindUpBird

economy is far worse, 2008 credit crisis. dark like desperate and violent, not dark like Big Contest

I dunno. 2000 was "highjacked election, democracy is over" and 2004 was all 9/11 and wars. Seemed pretty desperate and violent.

If the world is going to end, I want proof, not prophecy.

196 freetoken  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 3:47:03am

re: #190 000G

Correction: They are a "united system of governments" but they lack a very essential instrument: A fiscal union.

IMO if there is no "fiscal union" there is not a complete government. One of the central powers from the start in the US Constitution was the federal control of the money (coinage.) And when paper printed by banks in the various states proliferated the US central government eventually put an end to that (and took over itself the printing of paper "money").

197 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 3:50:03am

re: #196 freetoken

One of the central powers from the start in the US Constitution was the federal control of the money (coinage.) And when paper printed by banks in the various states proliferated the US central government eventually put an end to that (and took over itself the printing of paper "money").

Well, yes, but even all of that was a struggle to make real and implement, with big gaps inbetween (remember Andrew Jackson?). And what you are talking about here is still just monetary union, not fiscal union.

In the case of Europe, the Eurozone is a botched monetary union, and the EU is too much a Confederacy to even set out for a fiscal union.

198 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 3:53:20am

re: #196 freetoken

(and took over itself the printing of paper "money").

Btw, no idea why the scare quotes. Money is money as long as in the loan given to generate it, the credit operation rules for collateralization are upheld. If collaterlization is foregone, you will indeed end up with "fiat money". I think this is something crucial that Hudson ignores.

Hudson, btw, pointed out in 2006 that the housing market was in serious trouble.

199 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 3:55:26am

re: #195 000G

I dunno. 2000 was "highjacked election, democracy is over" and 2004 was all 9/11 and wars. Seemed pretty desperate and violent.

If the world is going to end, I want proof, not prophecy.

nothing's ending, it's just going to be all jacked up with OWS protests, more freaky Banking Developments and people acting stupid in public, maybe a couple more shootings like that woman who killed her kids over food stamps. Stuff like that ;-)

200 RogueOne  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 3:59:24am

U.S. arming Egyptian military crackdown
[Link: www.salon.com...]

All of this is likely to get worse as a result of yesterday’s disclosures by Amnesty International that, even as the Egyptian military brutally attacked protesters, the U.S. continued to arm them with crowd-control weaponry:

Data obtained by Amnesty International shows that the US has repeatedly transferred ammunition to Egypt despite security forces’ violent crackdown on protesters.

A shipment for the Egyptian Ministry of Interior arrived from the US on 26 November carrying at least seven tons of “ammunition smoke” – which includes chemical irritants and riot control agents such as tear gas.

It was one of at least three arms deliveries to Egypt by the US company Combined Systems, Inc. since the brutal crackdown on the “25 January Revolution” protesters.

It’s been reported on several occasions both before Mubarak’s departure and since that tear gas used against Egyptian protesters bore the “Made in the USA” label — why do they hate us? – but the referenced shipment here arrived less than a week after the Egyptian military killed at least two dozen protesters in Tahrir Square and injured dozens more (though it left a port in North Carolina several weeks earlier). The other two shipments Amnesty documents contained a combined total of 38 tons of ammunition. As Amnesty details, these shipments were made with the express permission of the U.S. Government

201 RogueOne  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 4:04:08am

This could be fun:

Can Occupy and the Tea Party team up?
In a Virginia art gallery, supporters of the two movements quietly explore the possibilities
[Link: www.salon.com...]

RICHMOND, Va. — Members of the Occupy Richmond and local Tea Party movements found acres of common ground during an unlikely meeting held Tuesday at a police station-turned-art gallery in the city’s historic Jackson Ward neighborhood.

But first and foremost, the 12 men and women from seemingly polar spots on the political spectrum agreed on this: The meeting never happened.

“I think it’s all very, very important that we state very clearly that this was not a meeting between the Tea Party and the Occupy movement,” declared Donald Rallis, an Occupy Richmond member, as the meeting wound to a close. His sotto-voce assertion meets with a flurry of “up twinkle” hands — or vigorous head nods — depending on the individual’s political leanings.

202 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 4:11:45am

re: #201 RogueOne

“up twinkle” hands

Huh? That like "Spirit Fingers"?

203 EdDantes  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 4:14:13am

re: #202 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Youtube Video
204 RogueOne  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 4:20:25am

re: #202 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Huh? That like "Spirit Fingers"?

"mic check"...I feel like you aren't taking twinkle fingers seriously enough...//

205 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 4:20:35am

re: #184 000G

Enh. Remember the doom and gloom of the Bush elections?

Turned out it was all justified.

206 freetoken  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 4:20:35am

re: #198 000G

Btw, no idea why the scare quotes.

Because in the original US Constitution "money" meant coinage. The idea of what we call today Reserve Notes had not been invented. Only in the 19th century did state chartered banks begin flooding the economy with paper currencies. This was eventually outlawed the and Federal government assumed all rights to the issuance of paper currency.

207 freetoken  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 4:22:40am

Meanwhile, down in Durban, the annual exercise in saving face means the party will roll on through their nighttime, in the hopes that Saturday morning they will all approve a piece of paper they can hold up and say "see, we did something."

208 Shropshire_Slasher  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 4:30:46am

Autopsy shows man had steroids in his bloodstream:
[Link: www.timesunion.com...]
This guy went nuts in a gym, cops tazered him, then he tazered himself, not good.

209 freetoken  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 4:38:15am

re: #208 Shropshire_Slasher

Let me take this opportunity to rant again about the idiocy of headline writers and most news articles.

Of course the guy had "steroids" in his blood. So do we all. Us men in particular have higher levels of testosterone than women.

What the title, and the open sections of the article, ought to write is that the subject had abnormally high levels of steroids in his blood. Or, if the guy was using artificial substances, then that should have been mentioned.

BTW, it's an interesting statement that the article makes:

Soares' office determined that Brothers did not die as a result of police actions, but as a result of the medical condition known as agitated delirium.

The wikipedia article (not the last word on medical issues):

The diagnosis of excited delirium has been controversial.[5][6] Excited delirium has been listed as a cause of death by some medical examiners for several years,[7][8] mainly as a diagnosis of exclusion established on autopsy.[1] Additionally, academic discussion of excited delirium has been largely confined to forensic science literature, providing limited documentation about patients that survive the condition.[1] These circumstances have led some civil liberties groups to question the cause of death diagnosis, claiming that excited delirium has been used to "excuse and exonerate" law enforcement authorities following the death of detained subjects, a possible "conspiracy or cover-up for brutality" when restraining agitated individuals.[1][5][6] Also contributing to the controversy is the role of taser use in excited delirium deaths.[3][9] The American College of Emergency Physicians has officially recognized excited delirium as a unique syndrome[10] and "rejects the theory" that excited delirium is an "invented syndrome" used to excuse or cover-up the use of excessive force by law enforcement.[11]

210 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 4:43:21am

re: #206 freetoken

Because in the original US Constitution "money" meant coinage. The idea of what we call today Reserve Notes had not been invented. Only in the 19th century did state chartered banks begin flooding the economy with paper currencies. This was eventually outlawed the and Federal government assumed all rights to the issuance of paper currency.

Errr... the Federal Government is not issuing paper currency. The Federal Reserve is only "chartered" as well, and not a proper national bank. And the Treasury is not issuing money (the US Mint is producing the physical money, true, but it is doing that on behalf of the Fed which is emitting it).

211 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 4:44:58am

Oblivious Supreme Court poised to legalize medical patents

The Supreme Court on Wednesday heard oral arguments in a case that raises a fundamental question: whether a physician can infringe a patent merely by using scientific research to inform her treatment decisions.

Unfortunately, this issue was barely mentioned in Wednesday's arguments. A number of influential organizations had filed briefs warning of the dire consequences of allowing medical patents, but their arguments were largely ignored in the courtroom. Instead, everyone seemed to agree that medical patents were legal in general, and focused on the narrow question of whether the specific patent in the case was overly broad.

This should make the nation's doctors extremely nervous. For two decades, the software industry has struggled with the harmful effects of patents on software. In contrast, doctors have traditionally been free to practice medicine without worrying about whether their treatment decisions run afoul of someone's patent. Now the Supreme Court seems poised to expand patent law into the medical profession, where it's unlikely to work any better than it has in software.

[Link: arstechnica.com...]

212 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 4:48:07am

‘Bright Light’: Inside secret CIA prison in Romania
Interactive 3D model by the AP:
[Link: hosted.ap.org...]

213 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 4:49:21am

re: #212 000G

Can't watch right now. Is the torture rack big? //

214 Shropshire_Slasher  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 4:50:02am

re: #213 Sergey Romanov

Huge array of nipple clamps!

215 RogueOne  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 4:50:43am

Mandatory minimum sentences impede justice
Unfair sentencing rules tie judges' hands
By Andre M. Davis
[Link: www.baltimoresun.com...]

Mr. Gregg was a user, a seller, a "snitch" for the FBI. His early life was marked by abuse and instability, suicide attempts, jails and prison stays. As a drug user, Mr. Gregg resorted to selling crack cocaine — not kilos, but several grams at a time out of a hotel room in a run-down section of Richmond, Va.

Not unexpectedly, he was arrested and convicted. A district judge sentenced Mr. Gregg to the mandatory term of life imprisonment, required by statute, at the discretion of the prosecutor, for a third conviction of a felony drug offense.

When Mr. Gregg's case came before me and my colleagues on appeal, there was nothing we could do but uphold the sentence of life in prison. The appellate court, like the disapproving trial court, found its hands were tied.

I do not believe Mr. Gregg deserves life in prison — the kind of sentence often imposed on convicted murderers — but I am handicapped by mandatory minimum sentencing guidelines, set by the Anti-Drug Abuse Act of 1986.
......
And Mr. Gregg's is far from the only story that underscores the kind of handcuffing by mandatory minimums that U.S. judges habitually face.
With mandatory minimums, judges are hindered from handing out fair and just sentences, but prosecutors are given unwarranted power to dictate sentences. Nonviolent drug offenders are serving longer sentences, filling our prisons at an unsustainable rate. Meanwhile, communities are destroyed, society is unjustly served and the "war on drugs" fails.

Tony Gregg is a drug dealer deserving punishment, perhaps. But it must be a just punishment.

And if his life story — and his mandatory life sentence — can serve to call attention to this decades-long miscarriage of justice, then perhaps he will have done us all some good.

Andre M. Davis of Baltimore is a judge with the United States Court of Appeals for the Fourth Circuit.

216 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 4:51:13am

Russia PM Vladimir Putin accuses US over poll protests

Russian Prime Minister Vladimir Putin has accused the United States of being behind protests over the results of Russia's parliamentary elections.

Mr Putin said US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton "set the tone for some opposition activists".

She "gave them a signal, they heard this signal and started active work", he said.

Mrs Clinton maintained that her concerns were "well-founded". Election monitors have also been critical.

About 1,000 people have been arrested in Moscow during three days of protests alleging election fraud.

Organisers have called another protest for Saturday.

Mr Putin accused the protesters of acting "in accordance with a well-known scenario and in their own mercenary political interests".

He warned that those working for foreign governments to influence Russian politics would be held to account.

"It is unacceptable when foreign money is pumped into election processes," Mr Putin said in comments shown on state-run TV.

"We should think of forms of defence of our sovereignty, defence from interference from abroad," he added.

Mrs Clinton said the US supported the "rights and aspirations of the Russian people".

"We expressed concerns that we thought were well-founded about the conduct of the elections," Mrs Clinton told a news conference in Brussels after talks between Nato allies and Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov.

Most Russians did not want the kind of political upheavals that had been seen in recent years in Ukraine and Kyrgyzstan, he said.

Mr Putin's remarks came a day after he officially registered his candidacy for the presidential elections next March.

While maintaining that protesters had the right to express their opinion, Mr Putin warned that "if somebody breaks the law, then the authorities... should demand that the law is adhered to".

Monitors from the Organisation for Security and Co-operation in Europe (OSCE) said on Monday that there had been "severe problems with the counting process" after the vote, citing apparent irregularities such as the stuffing of ballot boxes.

Earlier this week the US expressed "serious concerns" over the conduct of the vote.

Russia's only independent election monitoring group, Golos - which is funded by the US and the EU - logged 5,300 allegations of electoral violations.

Its website was hacked and the head of the organisation detained for several hours on Sunday. Prosecutors fined Golos 30,000 rubles (£600; $958) for violations of the electoral law.

On Tuesday Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov responded angrily to comments Mrs Clinton made about the conduct of the elections during an OSCE meeting in Lithuania.

"This is not Hyde Park, this is not Triumfalnaya [Triumphal] Square in Moscow, where speakers arrive to pour out their soul and then turn around and leave, not listening to others," he said, according to Reuters.

Results published by Russia's Electoral Commission showed support for Mr Putin's United Russia party had dropped but that it would still retain a slim majority in the Duma.

Russian President Dmitry Medvedev insisted that the vote had been free and fair.

[Link: www.bbc.co.uk...]

217 Shropshire_Slasher  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 4:53:08am

Careful what you wish for:
[Link: poststar.com...]
This is just down the road from my office.

218 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 4:55:15am

re: #213 Sergey Romanov

Can't watch right now. Is the torture rack big? //

Says the cells were "mounted on springs to disorient the detainees".

Also, the whole thing was in a Romanian government building. The agency in question is ORNISS, apparently tasked with administrating the military secrets of Romania's government.

219 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 4:57:18am

re: #218 000G

BOING!

220 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 4:57:34am

> "We should think of forms of defence of our sovereignty, defence from interference from abroad," he added.

Interesting how every political asshole in the world uses this line.

221 freetoken  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 4:57:46am

re: #210 000G

The Fed can only do so, though, by the laws of the land of the United States. And the the US law state that we must use, and only use (as far as paper currency), Federal Reserve notes. Thus only the federal government reserves to itself what can and cannot be used as money (formally) in the US. Yes, the organization now called the "Federal Reserve Bank" is the one chartered to do so, but the US could pass a law that says only the "Bling Bling Bank of Mars" can issue paper that can be used as currency in this country, and thus we would have to do so.

222 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 5:01:08am

re: #221 freetoken

the US could pass a law that says only the "Bling Bling Bank of Mars" can issue paper that can be used as currency in this country, and thus we would have to do so.

Yes, could. And?

Again, there was no need for your initial scare quotes. The question of whether money is proper hinges not on any official government charter and declarations of legal tender.

223 freetoken  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 5:01:44am

re: #222 000G

Yes, could. And?

Again, there was no need for your initial scare quotes. The question of whether money is proper hinges not on any official government charter and declarations of legal tender.

They were not scare quotes. That's my whole point. It was simply a definition.

224 freetoken  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 5:04:38am

And furthermore, the whole point is that of centralized power, the subject of the article you linked. The US government from the start claimed a power over money that many other nations do likewise, but the EU has done it half heartedly only (first by only have a subset of countries use the Euro, and then not giving the ECB the power it needs to control the Euro like other central banks have for their currencies.)

225 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 5:05:52am

Big scandal over conservative politician Gudrun Pieper heckling Green politician (and ethnic Turk) Filiz Polat, while the latter was speaking in front of the parliament of Nether Saxony, criticizing another conservative's immigration policies:

"It would have been best if you had been deported", Pieper yelled at Polat

[Link: www.ndr.de...]

226 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 5:07:04am

re: #223 freetoken

They were not scare quotes. That's my whole point. It was simply a definition.

In 206 you did not object to my use of the term scare quotes. And I have no idea what you mean by "It was simply a definition".

227 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 5:09:15am

re: #224 freetoken

And furthermore, the whole point is that of centralized power, the subject of the article you linked. The US government from the start claimed a power over money that many other nations do likewise, but the EU has done it half heartedly only (first by only have a subset of countries use the Euro, and then not giving the ECB the power it needs to control the Euro like other central banks have for their currencies.)

It took until 1913/14 until there was a Fed. And the Fed got substantially reformed several times since its creation. It's hard to get these things right in detail, no matter what your principal "claim" is.

Btw, Euro usage is not a subset of the EU. There are countries who use the Euro as official currency but who are not part of the EU.

228 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 5:10:55am

re: #225 000G

And you call that a scandal? Pfui Deibel! ///

229 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 5:10:58am

re: #227 000G

There are countries who use the Euro as official currency but who are not part of the EU.

Monaco, San Marino, and Vatican City.

See also [Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

230 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 5:11:17am

morning all!

231 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 5:15:22am

Hmmm.... CBS and not Infowars?:

Documents: ATF used "Fast and Furious" to make the case for gun regulations

Documents obtained by CBS News show that the Bureau of Alcohol Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) discussed using their covert operation "Fast and Furious" to argue for controversial new rules about gun sales.

[…]

ATF officials didn't intend to publicly disclose their own role in letting Mexican cartels obtain the weapons, but emails show they discussed using the sales, including sales encouraged by ATF, to justify a new gun regulation called "Demand Letter 3". That would require some U.S. gun shops to report the sale of multiple rifles or "long guns." Demand Letter 3 was so named because it would be the third ATF program demanding gun dealers report tracing information.

On July 14, 2010 after ATF headquarters in Washington D.C. received an update on Fast and Furious, ATF Field Ops Assistant Director Mark Chait emailed Bill Newell, ATF's Phoenix Special Agent in Charge of Fast and Furious:

"Bill - can you see if these guns were all purchased from the same (licensed gun dealer) and at one time. We are looking at anecdotal cases to support a demand letter on long gun multiple sales. Thanks."

On Jan. 4, 2011, as ATF prepared a press conference to announce arrests in Fast and Furious, Newell saw it as "(A)nother time to address Multiple Sale on Long Guns issue." And a day after the press conference, Chait emailed Newell: "Bill--well done yesterday... (I)n light of our request for Demand letter 3, this case could be a strong supporting factor if we can determine how many multiple sales of long guns occurred during the course of this case."

This revelation angers gun rights advocates. Larry Keane, a spokesman for National Shooting Sports Foundation, a gun industry trade group, calls the discussion of Fast and Furious to argue for Demand Letter 3 "disappointing and ironic." Keane says it's "deeply troubling" if sales made by gun dealers "voluntarily cooperating with ATF's flawed 'Operation Fast & Furious' were going to be used by some individuals within ATF to justify imposing a multiple sales reporting requirement for rifles."

[Link: www.cbsnews.com...]

232 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 5:15:53am

Rouge One, did you see my pepper spray Post? Law Enforcement is messing-up, IMHO

233 RogueOne  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 5:17:21am

re: #232 ggt

No, I had missed it. Good post.

234 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 5:17:25am

U.S.'s Afghan Headache: $400-a-Gallon Gasoline
Military Air Drops Fuel Barrels to Avoid Dangerous Convoys

OVER EASTERN AFGHANISTAN—Parachuting a barrel of fuel to a remote Afghan base takes sharp flying skills, steady nerves and flawless timing.

It also costs a lot of money—up to $400 a gallon, by military estimates.

But the Pentagon is stuck with the expense for the foreseeable future, especially given the recent deterioration in U.S.-Pakistani relations.

[Link: online.wsj.com...]

235 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 5:17:46am

re: #231 000G

Hmmm... CBS and not Infowars?:

Documents: ATF used "Fast and Furious" to make the case for gun regulations

[Link: www.cbsnews.com...]

It's a fine line. Discussing setting-up a reason to curtail Constitutional rights by a government employee/official is pretty serious, IMHO.

They didn't act on it which makes the story a bit of hype. But it is news.

236 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 5:18:57am

re: #233 RogueOne

No, I had missed it. Good post.

Previously: [Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

237 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 5:19:08am

re: #233 RogueOne

No, I had missed it. Good post.

You are always posting about law enforcement abuses . . .thought you'd find it interesting. I can't believe what the officers are accused of doing . . .deliberately spraying in people's faces?

238 RogueOne  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 5:19:36am

re: #231 000G

The Holder hearings made for some good tv yesterday.

239 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 5:21:14am

Good morning, Lizardim. Clear and bitterly cold here in the wild north country - 2 degrees F (-16 degrees C) on this completely cloudless morning. I feel sorry for my wife, who had a dentist appointment this morning, and thus she is out in the cold while I am working from home taking care of the fishspawn. How is everyone?

240 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 5:23:11am

Water containing strontium leaked into sea from Fukushima plant

TOKYO (Kyodo) -- Tokyo Electric Power Co. said Tuesday that around 150 liters of water containing strontium and other radioactive substances has flowed into the Pacific Ocean from its crippled Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power plant.

The utility known as TEPCO said the amount of radioactive substances is estimated at around 26 billion becquerels, adding that the impact would be "negligible" even if people continue to eat marine products from the area.

The water leaked from a water processing facility after undergoing a process to remove radioactive cesium. But the facility is not capable of removing strontium, which tends to accumulate in bones and is feared to cause bone cancer and leukemia.

The seawater near the plant has already been contaminated not only by massive radioactive fallout since the March 11 earthquake and tsunami triggered the nuclear crisis, but also by accidental releases of polluted water.

In the latest case, TEPCO found on Sunday that around 45 tons of water had accumulated inside a building housing part of the water processing facility and some of it was seeping through a concrete crack in the building to a nearby gutter, which leads to the sea about 500 meters away.

According to TEPCO's press release, the water contained radioactive materials including about 11 billion becquerels of strontium-89, 15 billion becquerels of strontium-90 and 4.4 million becquerels of cesium-137.

The water processing facility is essential to create water for injection into the crippled Nos. 1 to 3 reactors, as they have lost their key cooling functions since the March disaster.

The water used to cool the reactors contains massive amounts of radioactive substances and is channeled to the water treatment facility so it can be recycled as a coolant.

[Link: mdn.mainichi.jp...]

241 NJDhockeyfan  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 5:23:32am

Bomb Explodes at Tax Collection Office in Rome

MILAN—Police say a package bomb has exploded at a tax collection office in Rome, injuring one person.

A police official said the bomb went off midday Friday as it was being opened at an office of Equitalia, which is charged with collecting taxes. The official spoke on customary condition of anonymity.

Police say the person opening the package suffered injuries to the hands and eyes.

242 RogueOne  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 5:24:20am

re: #236 000G

re: #237 ggt

I'm a little torn on this one. On one hand the more non-lethal options the better. I'd rather get hit with pepper spray than shot or beaten with a baton. OTOH, every time they come out with something new that is supposed to protect the populace they find a way to abuse it. Instead of using tasers/pepper spray for their intended purposes they use them to force compliance for the most minor offenses. Refuse to sign a traffic ticket? That's a tasing!

243 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 5:25:25am

re: #240 000G

Water containing strontium leaked into sea from Fukushima plant

[Link: mdn.mainichi.jp...]

From TEPCO's December 6 press release page:

150 liters of this radioactive strontium-rich water leaked into the ocean from the evaporative condensation apparatus (part of the contaminated water treatment system), via the regular drains.

Density:

*

Strontium-89: 74,000 becquerels/cubic centimeter
*

Strontium-90: 100,000 becquerels/cubic centimeter

Total amount of radioactive materials (including cesium) that leaked into the ocean this time: 26,000,000,000 becquerels, or 26 billion becquerels.

TEPCO says it is 12% of "annual discharge target control of radioactive liquid waste" at Fukushima I Nuclear Power Plant. That's one way of putting it. Another way is that it is only a fraction of what has already been discharged, to the tune of between 4,700 terabecquerels (TEPCO estimate so far, though the company was to recalculate by the end of November; did it?) and 27,100 terabecquerels (France's IRSN estimate), and these numbers do not include strontium.

[Link: ex-skf.blogspot.com...]

244 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 5:26:29am

re: #242 RogueOne

On one hand the more non-lethal options the better. I'd rather get hit with pepper spray than shot or beaten with a baton.

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

245 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 5:27:52am

re: #242 RogueOne

re: #237 ggt

I'm a little torn on this one. On one hand the more non-lethal options the better. I'd rather get hit with pepper spray than shot or beaten with a baton. OTOH, every time they come out with something new that is supposed to protect the populace they find a way to abuse it. Instead of using tasers/pepper spray for their intended purposes they use them to force compliance for the most minor offenses. Refuse to sign a traffic ticket? That's a tasing!

It seems there should be protocol and procedures for using it if it can cause physical harm. I think the article stated the tests that were conducted were for inhaled pepper spray from 5 ft away. That's a big difference than from spraying it in someone's face --there is no way to tell if someone has a respiratory disorder. It could very well be lethal if not used properly.

Oleoresin of capiscum is harsh stuff. I can't imagine what a direct dose of OC spray could do to internal tissues.

246 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 5:28:18am

After the treatment of OWS (and its exploitation in the Russian media) I fully expect that the Russian police's hands will be fully untied during the Dec.10 protests against falsification of elections.

247 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 5:29:11am

re: #246 Sergey Romanov

Don't worry, KT will assure us that it's all on the level.

248 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 5:29:48am

re: #247 000G

No, I expect him to condemn it. It's Russia.

249 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 5:29:50am

re: #246 Sergey Romanov

After the treatment of OWS (and its exploitation in the Russian media) I fully expect that the Russian police's hands will be fully untied during the Dec.10 protests against falsification of elections.

My gut feeling tells me that that means something a little more aggressive than what we've seen from the various American police forces so far.

250 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 5:30:04am

re: #244 000G

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

Excellent. Care if I link your Post to mine? Mostly so I won't forget it and for others that may be interested?

251 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 5:30:23am

US Army perfects the two-year sandwich

Shelf life is the cornerstone of any MRE, and this sandwich fits the bill: it stays fresh for two years. For food to rot, you usually need oxygen and water. MREs that eliminate water have great shelf-life, but horrible taste. The two-year sandwich doesn’t shy away from moist ingredients, but it uses preservation techniques to keep the H2O in check.

[Link: www.geek.com...]

252 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 5:30:45am

re: #250 ggt

Excellent. Care if I link your Post to mine? Mostly so I won't forget it and for others that may be interested?

Go ahead. No need to ask me.

253 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 5:30:55am

re: #249 thedopefishlives

My gut feeling tells me that that means something a little more aggressive than what we've seen from the various American police forces so far.

I think the US methods will be quite enough.

254 NJDhockeyfan  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 5:31:49am

Video surfaces of American who vanished in Iran

Robert Levinson, a retired FBI agent who went missing in Iran nearly five years ago, appeared in a video that his family posted online Friday.

Levinson said he is not in very good health and has been running out of diabetes medication.

"I have been treated well," Levinson said. "But I need the help of the United States government to answer the requests of the group that has held me for three and a half years."

"Thirty-three years of service to the United States deserves something," said Levinson, who wore a white shirt and spoke with a gray wall in the backdrop. "Please help me."

255 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 5:32:16am

re: #253 Sergey Romanov

I think the US methods will be quite enough.

Perhaps. But maybe you Russians are a little bit more resilient in your protesting than us wimpy Americans. Which would entice the police to use stronger measures. And that is a bit of an unnerving thought.

256 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 5:34:48am

re: #238 RogueOne

The Holder hearings made for some good tv yesterday.

Any non-wingnut synopsis sources?

257 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 5:34:54am

re: #255 thedopefishlives

I'm pretty sure Russians react to pepper spray in the same way as Americans. :P

258 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 5:35:22am

re: #252 000G

Go ahead. No need to ask me.

I always like to ask

259 RogueOne  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 5:36:12am

re: #255 thedopefishlives

I'm not sure about that first part, we've had a lot more practice. OTOH, While we've had localized abuses of power we haven't seen any cops shooting anyone, water cannons, or gassing entire crowds which we have seen in europe. I think we're much more concerned with the press in the US.

260 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 5:36:29am

re: #257 Sergey Romanov

"If you pepperspray us, do we not weep?"

261 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 5:37:38am

re: #260 000G

"If you pepperspray us, do we not weep?"

You'd have to ask Varek . . .

:)

262 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 5:37:53am

re: #259 RogueOne

I'm not sure about that first part, we've had a lot more practice. OTOH, While we've had localized abuses of power we haven't seen any cops shooting anyone, water cannons, or gassing entire crowds which we have seen in europe. I think we're much more concerned with the press in the US.

That's kinda what I was thinking, and what I was afraid of. Especially in Russia, where freedom of the press is a tenuous concept at the best of times. Certainly better than in the Soviet days, but somehow I think any "incidents" would be more easily swept under the rug, so to speak.

263 RogueOne  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 5:38:18am

re: #256 000G

Any non-wingnut synopsis sources?

Wingnut source but your kind of nut//

Holder, Chaffetz Get Into Heated Exchange Over Fast And Furious (VIDEO)
[Link: tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com...]

Youtube Video
264 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 5:40:14am

While the outcome of the presidential elections is pretty clear, I suppose that the level of falsifications will be the same, if not worse, because for various reasons Putin will probably wish to avoid the second tour of elections.

I'll tell you this though. If it's the choice of Putin v. Zyuganov, as much as I hate the former, even I would be tempted to vote for him. We don't need hardcore degenerate nationalist Stalinists in power. The mild ones are quite enough.

265 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 5:41:53am

re: #263 RogueOne

Wingnut source but your kind of nut//

Holder, Chaffetz Get Into Heated Exchange Over Fast And Furious (VIDEO)
[Link: tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com...]

[Video]

"You need to understand how Washington works?"

He needs to take responsibility for this. WTF?

266 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 5:41:57am

To vote Alien or Predator? Choices, choices.

267 RogueOne  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 5:42:38am

re: #264 Sergey Romanov

RE: the spat between Putin and Hill. I say we set up a cage match between the two. Putin has that nice upper body for an old guy but Hillary has the leg strength. Plus, I think she might actually be the meaner.

268 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 5:43:18am

re: #266 Sergey Romanov

To vote Alien or Predator? Choices, choices.

Whoever wins, we lose.

269 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 5:43:52am

re: #267 RogueOne

Do what you want, but assure beforehand that the referee won't be V. Churov, the head of the Russian Elections Commission. ;)

270 RogueOne  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 5:44:07am

re: #265 ggt

"You need to understand how Washington works?"

He needs to take responsibility for this. WTF?

The exchange between Issa and Holder got even more heated. It degenerated into a "Have You No Shame!!" pissing match. (excuse my vernacular)

271 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 5:44:35am

re: #268 thedopefishlives

Whoever wins, we lose.

Sorta. Though, strangely, it did work out in the film :)

272 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 5:45:11am

re: #271 Sergey Romanov

Sorta. Though, strangely, it did work out in the film :)

I think in your case, it's a literal rendering of the expression "the lesser of two evils".

273 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 5:45:13am

re: #271 Sergey Romanov

Sorta. Though, strangely, it did work out in the film :)

The enemy of my enemy is not necessarily my friend.

:)

274 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 5:45:42am

re: #270 RogueOne

The exchange between Issa and Holder got even more heated. It degenerated into a "Have You No Shame!!" pissing match. (excuse my vernacular)

oooh, I'd love to see that.

Holder seems to have to compassion for the loss of life regarding this Operation or the major FU that it is/was.

275 RogueOne  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 5:46:57am

re: #269 Sergey Romanov

Do what you want, but assure beforehand that the referee won't be V. Churov, the head of the Russian Elections Commission. ;)

It would be like the Olympics judging during the cold war. "Hillary gets a 4 for her dismount from the Ukrainian judge"

276 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 5:47:08am

re: #272 thedopefishlives

I think in your case, it's a literal rendering of the expression "the lesser of two evils".

Yeah, I'm pretty sure Zyuganov is more physically massive than Pu.

277 RogueOne  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 5:48:16am

re: #274 ggt

They went into complete CYA mode the day the border agent was killed.

278 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 5:49:16am

re: #277 RogueOne

They went into complete CYA mode the day the border agent was killed.

YEP and the American Electorate doesn't like that very much regardless of the Administration's Party affiliation.

279 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 5:49:36am

re: #270 RogueOne

Is this happening now? Did Holder explain hid denial of knowledge yet?

280 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 5:50:06am

re: #279 Sergey Romanov

Is this happening now? Did Holder explain hid denial of knowledge yet?

He seems to think he can deny any responsibility.

Obama will have to throw him under the bus over it eventually.

281 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 5:51:27am

re: #280 ggt

But did he explain the apparent contradiction between his old testimony and the documents that bubbled up several days later?

282 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 5:53:27am

re: #281 Sergey Romanov

But did he explain the apparent contradiction between his old testimony and the documents that bubbled up several days later?

Not in that video. He told the congress critter he didn't understand the way government worked. Very condescending.

283 NJDhockeyfan  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 5:53:42am

re: #281 Sergey Romanov

But did he explain the apparent contradiction between his old testimony and the documents that bubbled up several days later?

That's because lying is a 'state of mind'.

AG Eric Holder to Congress: 'Lying' About Fast and Furious 'A State of Mind'

284 RogueOne  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 5:53:57am

re: #279 Sergey Romanov

Is this happening now? Did Holder explain hid denial of knowledge yet?

No, yesterday, and no. He didn't really come up with a good excuse as to how he didn't know about it. He's gone from saying "they didn't do it!" to "They did do it but I didn't know" to yesterday seemingly arguing that he knew all about it.

“Well, first off, the notion that I am somehow oblivious to this matter is totally belied by these inconvenient things called the facts,” Holder said.

285 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 5:54:59am

re: #283 NJDhockeyfan

That's because lying is a 'state of mind'.

AG Eric Holder to Congress: 'Lying' About Fast and Furious 'A State of Mind'

Yeah, he gone.

286 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 5:55:40am

re: #274 ggt

oooh, I'd love to see that.

Holder seems to have to compassion for the loss of life regarding this Operation or the major FU that it is/was.

The whole thing on C-SPAN:

[Link: www.c-span.org...]

287 RogueOne  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 5:56:42am

re: #285 ggt

Yeah, he gone.

Anyone who thought this was a good idea needs to find another job outside of the government. They're using their internal investigation as an excuse to keep their mouths shut about what exactly they were thinking while all of this was going on.

288 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 5:56:57am

re: #286 000G

The whole thing on C-SPAN:

[Link: www.c-span.org...]

I wish I had time, I'll have to scroll thru it to see the Issa interrogation.

I miss the days when I could keep C-SPAN on all day.

289 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 5:57:03am

re: #283 NJDhockeyfan

That's technically correct, yknow.

290 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 5:57:15am

re: #283 NJDhockeyfan

Strictly speaking that's correct, lying is always intentional, so something unintentional is not lying. Of course, this defense shouldn't be used to brush off inconvenient questions.

291 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 5:58:52am

re: #287 RogueOne

Anyone who thought this was a good idea needs to find another job outside of the government. They're using their internal investigation as an excuse to keep their mouths shut about what exactly they were thinking while all of this was going on.

It just makes the recent story (OOOG's #231) posted above more newsworthy-ness.

292 NJDhockeyfan  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 5:59:26am

re: #289 000G

That's technically correct, yknow.

Depends on what the definition of is is.

///

293 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 6:00:16am

re: #292 NJDhockeyfan

Depends on what the definition of is is.

///

The electorate are not philosophers, they hate this stuff.

294 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 6:00:31am

re: #251 000G

US Army perfects the two-year sandwich


[Link: www.geek.com...]

Zombie Turkey!

I've got an old-style MRE kicking around somewhere in the office. Friend who was in the Gulf sent it to me for some reason.

295 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 6:01:19am

re: #292 NJDhockeyfan

Depends on what the definition of is is.

///

It's "to the best of my knowledge", when the knowledge is incorrect (for example).

296 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 6:01:20am

re: #294 oaktree

Zombie Turkey!

I've got an old-style MRE kicking around somewhere in the office. Friend who was in the Gulf sent it to me for some reason.

Well, bring it to the next Troll BBQ.

297 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 6:01:39am

re: #293 ggt

Dat true.

298 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 6:01:58am

re: #296 ggt

Well, bring it to the next Troll BBQ.

Ugh. Great way to ruin perfectly grilled gamey troll buttocks.

299 RogueOne  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 6:02:09am

I agree that there is a big difference between being wrong and lying. In this case there have been accusations (and emails) showing that the WH knew all about this but it's still entirely possible the president did not know. OTOH, I don't think with all we've learned that it's possible that Holder didn't know exactly what was going on and he still needs to answer the question of why he thought this was a good idea.

300 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 6:02:33am

re: #290 Sergey Romanov

Not just intentionality, it also has to do with the theorie(s) of truth employed because to lie is to relate to truth in a certain way. Of course, Holder's deference to "facts" seems like a lame cop-out. Politics usually have no patience for semantics to begin with.

301 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 6:02:57am

re: #298 thedopefishlives

Ugh. Great way to ruin perfectly grilled gamey troll buttocks.

No, I thought we could us it to fatten up the troll . . .

302 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 6:03:52am

re: #299 RogueOne

I agree that there is a big difference between being wrong and lying. In this case there have been accusations (and emails) showing that the WH knew all about this but it's still entirely possible the president did not know. OTOH, I don't think with all we've learned that it's possible that Holder didn't know exactly what was going on and he still needs to answer the question of why he thought this was a good idea.

Either way, it looks as if he is either intentially lying or misleading Congress or he is incompetent.

303 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 6:05:01am

re: #300 000G

Not just intentionality, it also has to do with the theorie(s) of truth employed because to lie is to relate to truth in a certain way.

Yuh, pardner, I uh agree!

(What that smart guy said!)

//

304 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 6:06:28am

re: #301 ggt

No, I thought we could us it to fatten up the troll . . .

Yeah, but do you really want to eat troll that's recently been fed an MRE? *shudder*

305 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 6:07:26am

re: #302 ggt

Either way, it looks as if he is either intentially lying or misleading Congress or he is incompetent.

If the GOP can keep it up, they will score either way. Either Holder becomes an increasing liability to Obama politically, or Obama sacks Holder but then will look like he caved to the GOP and had picked the wrong guy to begin with.

Of course whether the GOP can keep it up at least partially depends on the actual truth (heh). We'll see.

306 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 6:09:12am

How times change! Oh, the titans of old! I mean, what is F&F compared to Iran-Contra? Just a speck.

307 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 6:09:43am

re: #305 000G

If the GOP can keep it up, they will score either way. Either Holder becomes an increasing liability to Obama politically, or Obama sacks Holder but then will look like he caved to the GOP and had picked the wrong guy to begin with.

Of course whether the GOP can keep it up at least partially depends on the actual truth (heh). We'll see.

true,

I think Holder's bungling of this (Public Relations-wise) has made it a political issue. Regardless of his involvement or knowledge, the Electorate want those in charge to take responsibility and be transparent as possible. We like to be the determiners of what is acceptable or not.

imagine that.

308 Killgore Trout  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 6:10:03am

re: #305 000G

If the GOP can keep it up, they will score either way. Either Holder becomes an increasing liability to Obama politically, or Obama sacks Holder but then will look like he caved to the GOP and had picked the wrong guy to begin with.

Of course whether the GOP can keep it up at least partially depends on the actual truth (heh). We'll see.

I don't think he's going to sack Holder. If he does he'll never never get a replacement through the confirmation hearings. He's going to have to keep him no matter what.

309 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 6:10:58am

re: #308 Killgore Trout

I don't think he's going to sack Holder. If he does he'll never never get a replacement through the confirmation hearings. He's going to have to keep him no matter what.

Holder will have to find a way to bow out and save face for the Adminstration.

310 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 6:11:06am

re: #308 Killgore Trout

I don't think he's going to sack Holder. If he does he'll never never get a replacement through the confirmation hearings. He's going to have to keep him no matter what.

GOP would leave the DOJ headless?

311 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 6:11:06am

re: #306 Sergey Romanov

How times change! Oh, the titans of old! I mean, what is F&F compared to Iran-Contra? Just a speck.

And it seems that the office of Attorney General is a lightning rod for controversial programs and decisions. When was the last one that served for any extended period of time without becoming embroiled in one (or more)?

312 Killgore Trout  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 6:11:10am

Muslim Brotherhood: Egypt-Israel peace treaty needs to be reviewed

"A long time has passed since the Camp David accord was signed, and like the other agreements it needs to be reviewed, and this is in the hands of the parliament," said Mahmoud Hussein, the group's secretary-general.

"The brotherhood believes the treaty is of great importance, but it is not on the top of our list. There are other priorities for the time being," Hussein told the regional Asharq al-Awsat daily.

"Generally, Israel does not honor the agreement," he added.

He denied a report saying that the Muslim Brotherhood had reached an understanding with the United States and Israel on "the importance of safeguarding the peace treaty with Israel."

313 RogueOne  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 6:11:34am

re: #308 Killgore Trout

That's a good point. Holder made it through pretty easily but this is an election year.

314 Killgore Trout  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 6:11:46am

re: #310 000G

GOP would leave the DOJ headless?

I have no doubt about that.

315 RogueOne  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 6:12:11am

re: #310 000G

.....leave the DOJ headless?

That would make me sad///

316 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 6:12:47am

re: #310 000G

GOP would leave the DOJ headless?

2nd Amendment issues are unbelievably determiners of election outcomes.

If he wants those GOP normal voters who are disenchanted with the GOP he will have to lose Holder --or otherwise resolve this issue.

317 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 6:12:54am

re: #310 000G

GOP would leave the DOJ headless?

Their motto seems to be, "Anything we can do to obstruct Obama is good for America."

318 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 6:13:31am

Nearlyheadless DOJ?

319 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 6:13:52am

re: #314 Killgore Trout

I have no doubt about that.

Wonder how they would justify that. Their sabotage of Warren's appointment was understandable on the face of it, because it fit with their ideology of fighting regulating the economy. But what ideology would fit keeping the DOJ headless? Mind you, I understand that they want to sabotage the Democratic Party administration as much as possible, but how would they justify it openly in that case?

320 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 6:15:36am

After reading Holder's Wiki, I've determined he is not incompetent.

This is going to explode if Obama doesn't do something about Holder. I'm concerned because I am a 2nd Amendment voter and I don't want the GOP in office in 2012.

321 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 6:15:37am

re: #319 000G

Depends on the candidate. I'm sure they could dig up something that would at least give them a veneer of plausibility.

322 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 6:16:11am

re: #321 thedopefishlives

Depends on the candidate. I'm sure they could dig up something that would at least give them a veneer of plausibility.

What if Obama gave them choice of candidate (covertly)?

323 NJDhockeyfan  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 6:17:08am

re: #309 ggt

Holder will have to find a way to bow out and save face for the Adminstration.

Unless they find some low ranking staffer to become the fall guy and fire him/her. I doubt it will work.

324 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 6:18:06am

re: #323 NJDhockeyfan

Unless they find some low ranking staffer to become the fall guy and fire him/her. I doubt it will work.

I think, from what I hear, the 2nd Amendment voters want Holder OUT. He is going to have to man-up and take the fall for Obama.

325 Obdicut  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 6:18:44am

re: #320 ggt

With all the troubles facing the world today, with AGW, the banking scandals, the war on women's freedom, it frankly amazes me there are still people who are 2nd amendment voters. I support the individual right to own guns, but I do not understand why people feel it is such an ideologically important right.

326 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 6:19:22am

re: #325 Obdicut

With all the troubles facing the world today, with AGW, the banking scandals, the war on women's freedom, it frankly amazes me there are still people who are 2nd amendment voters. I support the individual right to own guns, but I do not understand why people feel it is such an ideologically important right.

self defense.

Slaves do not have the right to self-defense.

We are either free or we are not.

It's that simple.

327 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 6:19:59am

re: #325 Obdicut

Because when AGW, the banking scandals, the war on women's freedom etc. all ruin us, we can still fight off the government and our less-well-off neighbors with our guns.


*bang bang*

328 NJDhockeyfan  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 6:20:27am

re: #325 Obdicut

With all the troubles facing the world today, with AGW, the banking scandals, the war on women's freedom, it frankly amazes me there are still people who are 2nd amendment voters. I support the individual right to own guns, but I do not understand why people feel it is such an ideologically important right.

Everyone has their reasons to support various candidates. Some issues are much more important than others. There is no such thing as a perfect politician.

329 Obdicut  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 6:21:10am

re: #326 ggt

self defense.

I'm sorry, I don't understand what you mean. Could you explain more?

Slaves do not have the right to self-defense.

That was one right they didn't have. Among thousands of others. Why focus on that? And they didn't just not have the right to own guns, they didn't have the right to raise a hand to protect themselves against assault. So what is the connection to guns?

We are either free or we are not.

It's that simple.

Again, no clue what you mean. Do you mean that if I'm not able to purchase and own a shotgun, I'm not free?

330 Killgore Trout  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 6:22:04am

re: #322 000G

What if Obama gave them choice of candidate (covertly)?

Interesting hypothetical. I still feel pretty confident that they would block a nominee even of their own choosing. It's pure insanity but they'd do it.

331 RogueOne  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 6:23:13am

I just helped a stoner friend install a new video card and power supply over the phone. He couldn't figure out why it wasn't coming on, he was flipping the on/off switch. Problem was he was flipping the power supply switch and not actually pressing the "On" button on the pc. He needs to learn to wait until he's finished with his work before he hits his pipe.

332 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 6:23:22am

A few years ago, Rebecca Peters of IANSA debated the NRA's Wayne La Pierre in the Great Gun Debate (parts 1, the other parts are linked).

When asked Rebecca Peters stated (that in her perfect world) if you "defended yourself in your own home with a handgun, you would be breaking the law".

She shouldn't have said that.

333 NJDhockeyfan  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 6:23:46am

Saudi Textbook: The Enmity between the Muslims and the Jews Is Everlasting

A twelfth-grade Saudi textbook titled Studies from the Muslim World includes a chapter on Palestine and the Palestinian cause, which deals extensively with the Jews. The chapter presents the conflict over Palestine as a religious struggle between the Jews and the Muslims that goes back to the era of the Prophet Muhammad. It states that there is no hope of ever making peace with the Jews because they do not believe in peace, but only strive to spread corruption and instability throughout the world, for they are liars, connivers and cheats by nature. It also stresses that these negative traits of the Jews are described in the Koran, and quotes verses to prove this. Finally, the chapter states that the only way to liberate Palestine is through jihad.

Ugh.

334 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 6:23:59am

re: #329 Obdicut

I'm sorry, I don't understand what you mean. Could you explain more?

That was one right they didn't have. Among thousands of others. Why focus on that? And they didn't just not have the right to own guns, they didn't have the right to raise a hand to protect themselves against assault. So what is the connection to guns?

Again, no clue what you mean. Do you mean that if I'm not able to purchase and own a shotgun, I'm not free?

It means that you should be able to use whatever means possible to defend your life and not be arrested for the type of weapon you use.

335 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 6:24:04am

re: #330 Killgore Trout

Interesting hypothetical. I still feel pretty confident that they would block a nominee even of their own choosing. It's pure insanity but they'd do it.

I'm not so sure. If the candidate was purely of their own choosing, i.e. Obama didn't make it a multiple-choice question but fill-in-the-blank, I'm pretty sure they'd jump at the chance to shove in the most virulently pro-2nd Amendment, anti-abortion, hyper-conservative Teabagger they could find that would still pass Obama's smell test.

336 Obdicut  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 6:24:16am

re: #328 NJDhockeyfan

Everyone has their reasons to support various candidates. Some issues are much more important than others. There is no such thing as a perfect politician.

That has nothing to do with what I said, though.

I'm saying that voting on the right to bear arms when there are such gigantic threats to our society and way of life that voting based on minute shades of difference between the GOP and the Democrats on the 2nd amendment is rather ludicrous to me.

The ATF wants to control the gun trade a little more, and that led the ATF to run a program that was probably ill-advised. What actually happened, of course, was the unrestricted flow of guns-- so in a weird way, what the 2nd amendment people are claiming to be mad about is regulation not being enforced.

So they're going to vote against Obama because the ATF intentionally didn't interdict weapons so they could build a bigger case to interdict more weapons. Huh?

337 Obdicut  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 6:25:58am

re: #334 ggt

It means that you should be able to use whatever means possible to defend your life and not be arrested for the type of weapon you use.

But you don't actually mean that. You don't think I should be able to use any means possible to defend my life, do you?

And it's not about the use of weapons, but the possession of them. Before they're used, they're possessed. If there was a gun lying on the ground near you and you grabbed it and used it to defend yourself, I doubt any charges would be filed except by the most insane DAs.

So we should talk about possession, rather than use.

338 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 6:26:19am

re: #330 Killgore Trout

Interesting hypothetical. I still feel pretty confident that they would block a nominee even of their own choosing. It's pure insanity but they'd do it.

Block it as much as possible and then run ads saying Obama is soft on Law & Order since he doesn't have an AG, or is trying to be dodgy about using a unconfirmed temporary appointment.
// (hmm, I actually think they'd try that via a SuperPAC)

339 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 6:26:29am

re: #336 Obdicut

That has nothing to do with what I said, though.

I'm saying that voting on the right to bear arms when there are such gigantic threats to our society and way of life that voting based on minute shades of difference between the GOP and the Democrats on the 2nd amendment is rather ludicrous to me.

The ATF wants to control the gun trade a little more, and that led the ATF to run a program that was probably ill-advised. What actually happened, of course, was the unrestricted flow of guns-- so in a weird way, what the 2nd amendment people are claiming to be mad about is regulation not being enforced.

So they're going to vote against Obama because the ATF intentionally didn't interdict weapons so they could build a bigger case to interdict more weapons. Huh?

It's all hype and I am concerned. The last SCOTUS decision should have put an end to to the gun debate. This just brings it all back to the forefront and is a threat to Obama's reelection.

It doesn't have to make sense --that is just the way it is. If Obama wants to put it to bed, he needs to find a way to replace Holder. If Holder had taken responsibilty and been transparent from the beginning it wouldn't be an issue. The media took it and ran with it. It's only going to get worse the closer we get to November.

340 Obdicut  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 6:27:26am

re: #339 ggt

It doesn't have to make sense --that is just the way it is.

So are you not representing your own views when you discuss this?

341 Daniel Ballard  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 6:27:26am

Self defense-Via any gun, martial skills, or whatever, exist so the innocent may thrive in the presence of the violent. Since this right is not explicit in our Constitution, we have to settle for the single amendment that is only necessary when things go horribly violently wrong.

One can argue well against any single issue voting. But many do based on their own conclusions.

342 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 6:27:45am

re: #337 Obdicut

But you don't actually mean that. You don't think I should be able to use any means possible to defend my life, do you?

And it's not about the use of weapons, but the possession of them. Before they're used, they're possessed. If there was a gun lying on the ground near you and you grabbed it and used it to defend yourself, I doubt any charges would be filed except by the most insane DAs.

So we should talk about possession, rather than use.

Against imminent danger, yes, I think you should be able to use whatever means possible to defend your life.

If you are disabled and in a wheelchair and some goon has broken into your home, what other means do you really have?

343 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 6:28:47am

re: #334 ggt

It means that you should be able to use whatever means possible to defend your life and not be arrested for the type of weapon you use.

I presume there are some limits on that. Like blowing up half the block.

344 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 6:29:08am

re: #340 Obdicut

So are you not representing your own views when you discuss this?

I am surrounded by 2nd Amendment voters. I know how they think and yes, I hear these things in my mind too. I've learned to think things thru and not have a "knee-jerk" reaction (I hope).

I can only tell you want I hear from others.

345 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 6:29:43am

re: #343 oaktree

I presume there are some limits on that. Like blowing up half the block.

Well, then you'd blow yourself up as well.

346 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 6:31:08am

re: #345 ggt

Well, then you'd blow yourself up as well.

Yes. Or you've retreated to the safe room bunker (with supplies) and pulled the lever that floods the fortress and surrounding countryside with magma.

347 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 6:31:14am

re: #343 oaktree

I presume there are some limits on that. Like blowing up half the block.

TACTICAL NUKES FOR EVERY AMERICAN!

348 Daniel Ballard  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 6:32:00am

re: #347 thedopefishlives

TACTICAL NUKES FOR EVERY AMERICAN!
Ad Absurdum.

349 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 6:32:03am

re: #346 oaktree

Yes. Or you've retreated to the safe room bunker (with supplies) and pulled the lever that floods the fortress and surrounding countryside with magma.

Charles has all that in the Sekrit Bunker?

350 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 6:32:40am

re: #347 thedopefishlives

Mad Magazine way back when had a spoof article about mail-order home defense weapons and systems. One, of course, was a nuke kit.

"Be the first teen on your block with The Bomb!"

351 Obdicut  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 6:33:28am

re: #342 ggt

Against imminent danger, yes, I think you should be able to use whatever means possible to defend your life.

So, activated anthrax would be okay? Grenades? A mortar?

If you are disabled and in a wheelchair and some goon has broken into your home, what other means do you really have?

And since the goons may be wearing bullet-proof body armor, obviously bullets than penetrate body armor-- like those worn by cops as well-- should be legal too, right?

Making a case for the right to own guns based on self-defense is ad-hoc reasoning. It's not an actual argument about the topic of where guns fit into society.

Again: I support the right of an individual to own guns. But it's not a right that actually comes up all that often. You're statistically very unlikely to ever run into a case of self-defense.

Whereas AGW is actually happening. The temperature of the earth is rising, and it's going to cause famine, devastation to property, and most likely the breakdown of our society.

So when voting between two parties, one of whom is a tickle better on gun rights but denies the science of AGW, and the other is a tickle worse on gun rights but at least acknowledges AGW and wants to do something about it, I do not get the mentality that would vote for the former over the latter.

It seems to me an ideological position; saying that that small difference in attitude towards gun rights is worth losing the country over.

352 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 6:34:06am

re: #349 ggt

Charles has all that in the Sekrit Bunker?

Oops. Was channeling Dwarf Fortress there. But I expect the Lizard Bunker has some sort of area defense in case of a mass attack by Zombie Wingnut/Moonbat.

353 Obdicut  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 6:34:07am

re: #344 ggt

Well, can you make it clear in the future when you're giving your own opinion and that of others? It makes discussing things with you odd if I don't know if I'm taking to you or a gestalt.

354 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 6:34:44am

re: #352 oaktree

Oops. Was channeling Dwarf Fortress there. But I expect the Lizard Bunker has some sort of area defense in case of a mass attack by Zombie Wingnut/Moonbat.

What do you think we have the radar-guided troll-seeking missiles for?

355 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 6:35:43am

re: #354 thedopefishlives

What do you think we have the radar-guided troll-seeking missiles for?

Those are the dual-warhead ones right? Initial hit with garlic BBQ sauce before the secondary napalm warhead hits?

356 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 6:36:27am

re: #351 Obdicut

So, activated anthrax would be okay? Grenades? A mortar?

And since the goons may be wearing bullet-proof body armor, obviously bullets than penetrate body armor-- like those worn by cops as well-- should be legal too, right?

Making a case for the right to own guns based on self-defense is ad-hoc reasoning. It's not an actual argument about the topic of where guns fit into society.

Again: I support the right of an individual to own guns. But it's not a right that actually comes up all that often. You're statistically very unlikely to ever run into a case of self-defense.

Whereas AGW is actually happening. The temperature of the earth is rising, and it's going to cause famine, devastation to property, and most likely the breakdown of our society.

So when voting between two parties, one of whom is a tickle better on gun rights but denies the science of AGW, and the other is a tickle worse on gun rights but at least acknowledges AGW and wants to do something about it, I do not get the mentality that would vote for the former over the latter.

It seems to me an ideological position; saying that that small difference in attitude towards gun rights is worth losing the country over.

We are talking about the average voter here, remember. They don't believe in AGW.

357 Daniel Ballard  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 6:37:33am

Obdicut-
"Again: I support the right of an individual to own guns. But it's not a right that actually comes up all that often. You're statistically very unlikely to ever run into a case of self-defense."

How often is not the point. I never needed the right to not incriminate myself. Is it then less important? Not at all.

358 RogueOne  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 6:37:55am

Where there is a will, there's a way...:

Bolivian teenager commits ‘suicide by piranha’
[Link: www.miamiherald.com...]

The young fisherman bled to death after leaping into the water from his canoe. He suffered dozens of bites to his throat and face on Bolivia’s Yata River, local police chief Daniel Cayaya told The Sun. The chief said he believed Barbosa -- from Rosario del Yata in the north east of the country — meant to kill himself.

Cayaya said the teenager knew the river well and would have been aware that it is swarming with red piranhas at this time of year. He added that Barbosa may have been drunk.

359 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 6:38:53am

re: #353 Obdicut

Well, can you make it clear in the future when you're giving your own opinion and that of others? It makes discussing things with you odd if I don't know if I'm taking to you or a gestalt.

I'm on the fence on this. Just this week I was home alone after dark and some goons in hoodies came to the front door and tried to get in the house. Cops picked them up.

I can certainly understand how self-defense is an issue.

360 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 6:39:02am

re: #355 oaktree

Those are the dual-warhead ones right? Initial hit with garlic BBQ sauce before the secondary napalm warhead hits?

Nah, not quite so fancy as that. They're shaped-charge penetrating warheads. You know, to blow a hole in the trolls' extremely thick hide.

361 Eventual Carrion  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 6:41:15am

re: #78 Altermite

USGS disagrees as far as fracking/earthquakes. Certainly appears to be some sort of positive correlation between frequency of the two, even if specific incidents are not always possible to link.

Exactly. Thought experiment for DF.

Solid land and substrata. Break up layered substrata and suck out the bursa filling to leave a cavity. Taking gravity and planet spin into consideration, what do you think will happen?

Go out to your larges planter. Use a water hose to blow water up the bottom drain hole so dirt is washed away and out the bottom. What happens to the dirt at the top of the planter? Does the soil fracture and more along a line in the soil? If there were rocks in the planter for drainage do they not move against each other?

362 Obdicut  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 6:41:49am

re: #356 ggt

We are talking about the average voter here, remember. They don't believe in AGW.

I"m sorry, I wasn't talking about the average voter. I thought I was talking to you.

And the average voter doesn't exist, just as generic republican doesn't.

If you mean that people who tend to disbelieve in AGW also tend to be 2nd amendment voters, that's a true observation, but that doesn't do anything to explain the 'single-issue' nature of 2nd amendment voters.

It is a right I support, but it is not something that has actual functional importance in most people's lives. Most people will go through their lives without ever being in a serious self-defense situation.

363 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 6:42:05am

re: #359 ggt

I'm on the fence on this. Just this week I was home alone after dark and some goons in hoodies came to the front door and tried to get in the house. Cops picked them up.

I can certainly understand how self-defense is an issue.

It's a pretty gray issue with me as well. Especially once you mix in the on-going militarization of police forces and use of SWAT tactics as the first move.

364 RogueOne  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 6:43:18am

re: #359 ggt

I'm on the fence on this. Just this week I was home alone after dark and some goons in hoodies came to the front door and tried to get in the house. Cops picked them up.

I can certainly understand how self-defense is an issue.

Put one of these on your door, problem solved!
Image: doberman-pinscher-aluminum-guard-dog-sign-decal-3287a_180495838206.jpg

or my personal favorite:
Image: beware_of_dog_doberman_gun_funny_poster_sign_print-p228039815429751996t5wm_400.jpg

2 years ago someone kicked in my front door while I was gone. They didn't even come in the house, they shut the screen door behind them and left.

365 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 6:44:29am

re: #362 Obdicut

I"m sorry, I wasn't talking about the average voter. I thought I was talking to you.

And the average voter doesn't exist, just as generic republican doesn't.

If you mean that people who tend to disbelieve in AGW also tend to be 2nd amendment voters, that's a true observation, but that doesn't do anything to explain the 'single-issue' nature of 2nd amendment voters.

It is a right I support, but it is not something that has actual functional importance in most people's lives. Most people will go through their lives without ever being in a serious self-defense situation.

I'm not going to debate this anymore with you. I've tried to describe the issue as I see it.

366 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 6:45:51am

re: #364 RogueOne

Put one of these on your door, problem solved!
Image: doberman-pinscher-aluminum-guard-dog-sign-decal-3287a_180495838206.jpg

or my personal favorite:
Image: beware_of_dog_doberman_gun_funny_poster_sign_print-p228039815429751996t5wm_400.jpg

2 years ago someone kicked in my front door while I was gone. They didn't even come in the house, they shut the screen door behind them and left.

I had three dogs barking at the door and a security alarm sticker in the window. They were idiots.

367 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 6:45:57am

re: #361 RayFerd

Exactly. Thought experiment for DF.

Solid land and substrata. Break up layered substrata and suck out the bursa filling to leave a cavity. Taking gravity and planet spin into consideration, what do you think will happen?

Go out to your larges planter. Use a water hose to blow water up the bottom drain hole so dirt is washed away and out the bottom. What happens to the dirt at the top of the planter? Does the soil fracture and more along a line in the soil? If there were rocks in the planter for drainage do they not move against each other?

I doubt the analogy is that good. Possibly more useful in relation to underground coal mining. For natural gas extraction not so much since:
1. You're pulling gas out, not a solid
2. You're pumping liquid and sand in - and actually getting a large percentage of that back out.
(And disposal of this is actually one of the bigger issues since it will be contaminated water you already have back on the surface and a spill of this will do a number on the local ground water.)
3. The gas is disseminated in the strata - not large pockets

368 Obdicut  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 6:46:25am

re: #357 Rightwingconspirator

Obdicut-
"Again: I support the right of an individual to own guns. But it's not a right that actually comes up all that often. You're statistically very unlikely to ever run into a case of self-defense."

How often is not the point. I never needed the right to not incriminate myself. Is it then less important? Not at all.

How often very much is the point, if you're judging which issues are most important to cast your vote on. The rate at which people are arrested and need the right not to incriminate themselves is very large; moreover, without that right, all sorts of other bad consequences occur.

I am only, only talking here about people who are '2nd amendment voters'-- as in, they vote exclusively or almost exclusively on the person or party's support for the 2nd amendment.

People who think it's an important right and take it into consideration I have no beef with. But compared to the right not to incriminate yourself, I do think it is far less important. Without that right, there is no right to remain silent under police questioning, and all sorts of terrible things then begin to happen to our justice system.

I think there's also a necessary distinction between how much one cares about something, and how important it actually is. I'm a pretty insanely anti-censorship person. I think we are amazingly restrictive in censoring things, and that the obscenity laws make no sense. I feel very, very passionately about this.

But it isn't something that I'm going to vote on exclusively, or even in large extent, because even though it really gets me going, in the grand scheme of things it's not among the most important things to fight over.

369 RogueOne  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 6:48:57am

re: #366 ggt

I had three dogs barking at the door and a security alarm sticker in the window. They were idiots.

Whoever did my house must not have been from the neighborhood. Everyone knows I have the 2 dogs. I rarely lock the house when I leave and I always leave the window in my office open. If someone is brave enough to climb through that window I say let them.

370 kirkspencer  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 6:49:40am

On the Holder as an Election Issue, I've got a fairly simple question.

How large is the slice of electorate that would vote for Obama if it weren't for this?

371 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 6:50:41am

re: #364 RogueOne

Put one of these on your door, problem solved!
Image: doberman-pinscher-aluminum-guard-dog-sign-decal-3287a_180495838206.jpg

or my personal favorite:
Image: beware_of_dog_doberman_gun_funny_poster_sign_print-p228039815429751996t5wm_400.jpg

2 years ago someone kicked in my front door while I was gone. They didn't even come in the house, they shut the screen door behind them and left.

Friend of mine in rural Illinois had his kitchen door kicked in by a local idiot while he and his wife were out of town.

Due to a recent icestorm dropping a tree branch on its chain one of his dogs (Ollie) was in the house. Ollie is about 50-60 lbs and actually a nice guy - until you try to break in.

Ollie apparently met the guy at the kitchen door and gave him the intruder's greeting. I didn't hear how many stitches the guy needed for his leg, but he did not make it past the kitchen.

Now, if that had been the police Ollie obviously would now be dead unless it was officers well trained in dealing with dogs that will be defending pack territory.

372 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 6:51:13am

re: #369 RogueOne

Whoever did my house must not have been from the neighborhood. Everyone knows I have the 2 dogs. I rarely lock the house when I leave and I always leave the window in my office open. If someone is brave enough to climb through that window I say let them.

I haven't heard the outcome, probably won't.

They did the "ma'am, you have a package on your stoop." after I wouldn't open the door to talk to them.

373 Daniel Ballard  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 6:52:38am

re: #359 ggt

I'm on the fence on this. Just this week I was home alone after dark and some goons in hoodies came to the front door and tried to get in the house. Cops picked them up.

I can certainly understand how self-defense is an issue.

Many can appreciate the need for when the police are too slow to arrive.
The small, the disabled have little chance to prevail in a deadly assault without a powerful weapon they can handle easily and well.

374 NJDhockeyfan  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 6:52:47am

re: #372 ggt

I haven't heard the outcome, probably won't.

They did the "ma'am, you have a package on your stoop." after I wouldn't open the door to talk to them.

Was it a paper bag on fire?

375 sattv4u2  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 6:54:02am

re: #373 Rightwingconspirator

a powerful weapon they can handle easily and well.

Me ,, I use biting sarcasm!

376 Killgore Trout  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 6:54:12am

re: #370 kirkspencer

On the Holder as an Election Issue, I've got a fairly simple question.

How large is the slice of electorate that would vote for Obama if it weren't for this?

I think it's pretty minor. Most people probably have no idea who Holder is. Fox is pretty much the only network making a big deal out of Fast and Furious and their viewers aren't going to vote for Obama anyways.

377 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 6:54:31am

re: #375 sattv4u2

a powerful weapon they can handle easily and well.

Me ,, I use biting sarcasm!

Careful there, son. Did you register that sarcasm with the local authorities?

378 Cannadian Club Akbar  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 6:54:50am

Morning Honcos.

379 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 6:55:26am

re: #376 Killgore Trout

Fox and CBS. CBS broke the Fast and Furious case to begin with.

380 RogueOne  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 6:55:26am

re: #371 oaktree

....
Now, if that had been the police Ollie obviously would now be dead unless it was officers well trained in dealing with dogs that will be defending pack territory.

That was my concern. After the break in the cops explained to my wife how the nice, quiet guy who was renting the house next door was a drug dealer and they had their eyes on him. He was my favorite renter, always quiet, and never a problem but the thought of the cops mistaking my house for his during a raid worried me.

381 sattv4u2  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 6:55:47am

re: #377 thedopefishlives

Careful there, son. Did you register that sarcasm with the local authorities?

A license to chill!

382 Cannadian Club Akbar  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 6:56:06am

re: #379 000G

Fox and CBS. CBS broke the Fast and Furious case to begin with.

Sharyl Atkinson (I think that's her name) has been all over it.

383 RogueOne  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 6:56:30am

re: #378 Cannadian Club Akbar

Morning Honcos.

Did you get control of your email account? I got a bunch of weird ones for awhile that stopped a few days ago.

384 RogueOne  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 6:57:13am

I have to run. Windows open, come one in!

385 Cannadian Club Akbar  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 6:57:29am

re: #383 RogueOne

Did you get control of your email account? I got a bunch of weird ones for awhile that stopped a few days ago.

It was my craig's list account. Changed the password. Will just delete the fucking thing.

386 Daniel Ballard  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 6:57:50am

re: #368 Obdicut

How often very much is the point, if you're judging which issues are most important to cast your vote on.

I'm sorry I thought I had recalled you making the "how often" argument in several circumstances. Didn't you say something like better to carry and emergency epi pen or something like that?

I'll brb my morning commute takes me away. If it's slow at the office I'll step back in.

387 Interesting Times  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 6:58:48am

Now this is a mandatory testing proposal I can support:

@LOLGOP LOLGOP
Let's hire the unemployed to drug test defense contractors.

388 NJDhockeyfan  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 6:59:12am

Rocket fire continues: Qassam hits western Negev

Qassam explodes in Eshkol Regional Council hours after three rockets hit other sites in south. No injuries, damage reported. Overnight, IAF carried out Gaza strike

It's all Israel's fault!
~ UN

389 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 6:59:54am

re: #373 Rightwingconspirator

Many can appreciate the need for when the police are too slow to arrive.
The small, the disabled have little chance to prevail in a deadly assault without a powerful weapon they can handle easily and well.

You'd hope with sufficient training to use it properly. Though it also appears that many consider a gun as some sort of magic wand that they can wave and make dangerous people/things go away. (Like my sister-in-law)

390 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 7:00:34am

re: #389 oaktree

You'd hope with sufficient training to use it properly. Though it also appears that many consider a gun as some sort of magic wand that they can wave and make dangerous people/things go away. (Like my sister-in-law)

I blame Hollywood for that. They seem to love portraying guns in a completely unrealistic light.

391 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 7:00:42am

I gotta start my day.

Have a great one all!

392 Cannadian Club Akbar  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 7:01:06am

POLLS CLOSE FRIDAY!!!!! VOTE NOW!!!
[Link: www.politifact.com...]

393 Obdicut  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 7:04:04am

re: #386 Rightwingconspirator

I'm sorry I thought I had recalled you making the "how often" argument in several circumstances. Didn't you say something like better to carry and emergency epi pen or something like that?
.

Heh. I used to, but apparently an epi pen actually has bad effects if you're using it when you don't really have to, so I don't advise people to do it anymore.

But I really don't get what that has to do with anything. There's not a lot of inherent danger to an epi pen. Comparing guns and epi pens is pretty pointless.

394 Obdicut  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 7:05:25am

re: #392 Cannadian Club Akbar

Politifact's dumb desire for 'balance' in that is pretty sad.

395 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 7:06:26am

re: #368 Obdicut

How often very much is the point, if you're judging which issues are most important to cast your vote on. The rate at which people are arrested and need the right not to incriminate themselves is very large; moreover, without that right, all sorts of other bad consequences occur.

I am only, only talking here about people who are '2nd amendment voters'-- as in, they vote exclusively or almost exclusively on the person or party's support for the 2nd amendment.

People who think it's an important right and take it into consideration I have no beef with. But compared to the right not to incriminate yourself, I do think it is far less important. Without that right, there is no right to remain silent under police questioning, and all sorts of terrible things then begin to happen to our justice system.

I think there's also a necessary distinction between how much one cares about something, and how important it actually is. I'm a pretty insanely anti-censorship person. I think we are amazingly restrictive in censoring things, and that the obscenity laws make no sense. I feel very, very passionately about this.

But it isn't something that I'm going to vote on exclusively, or even in large extent, because even though it really gets me going, in the grand scheme of things it's not among the most important things to fight over.

Ir's a confederate mentality, which is why you don't understand it. I should be able to shoot whoever the fuck I want and the feds better not say I can't, or I'll cry about how oppressed I am, to everyone in earshot.

396 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 7:08:37am

re: #395 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

So you're saying it's less of a protection fixation than a gun fixation? Sort of like some people have automobile fixations, or shoe fixations?

(Heh, imagine the outrage if there were Federal regulations on how many pairs of shoes you were allowed to own.)

397 Obdicut  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 7:09:15am

re: #395 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

Ir's a confederate mentality, which is why you don't understand it. I should be able to shoot whoever the fuck I want and the feds better not say I can't, or I'll cry about how oppressed I am, to everyone in earshot.

No, this really doesn't appear to have anything to do with 'confederates'. A large proportion of the gun restrictions that have the 2nd amendment people up in arms are state and local restrictions, not federal ones.

What brings you to the conclusion this has anything to do with 'confederates'?

398 sattv4u2  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 7:11:08am

re: #397 Obdicut

What brings you to the conclusion this has anything to do with 'confederates'?

Are you new here???
//

399 sattv4u2  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 7:12:07am

re: #378 Cannadian Club Akbar

Morning Honcos.

liberereee??

400 Cannadian Club Akbar  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 7:16:18am

re: #399 sattv4u2

liberereee??

Lieberrie. Dude, you should go there. They teach you to spell.
///

401 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 7:18:08am

re: #400 Cannadian Club Akbar

Lieberrie. Dude, you should go there. They teach you to spell.
///

Didn't the Irish (and then British) sing that it was a long way to get there?

402 I Am Kreniigh!  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 7:18:47am

re: #71 Dark_Falcon

And there's some new baddies on the loose in my old neighborhood of Lincoln Park. But this pack is a literal pack, of three coyotes.

Not coyotes... Wolfen.

403 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 7:21:14am

re: #370 kirkspencer

On the Holder as an Election Issue, I've got a fairly simple question.

How large is the slice of electorate that would vote for Obama if it weren't for this?

I would say, zero. For the rest, I can't think of anything on earth that would get them to vote for him. FF is just another pretext to keep up their hate.

404 Cannadian Club Akbar  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 7:21:27am

re: #401 oaktree

Didn't the Irish (and then British) sing that it was a long way to get there?

doesn't matter. They never learned to spell. See: colour or favour.:)

405 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 7:23:09am

re: #404 Cannadian Club Akbar

doesn't matter. They never learned to spell. See: colour or favour.:)

And don't forget the evolution variant (thank you Wikipedia)
It's a long way from Amphioxus, It's a long way to us.
It's a long way from Amphioxus to the meanest human cuss.
Well, it's goodbye to fins and gill slits, and it's hello teeth and hair!
It's a long, long way from Amphioxus, but we all came from there.
(heh)

406 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 7:24:48am

re: #397 Obdicut

No, this really doesn't appear to have anything to do with 'confederates'. A large proportion of the gun restrictions that have the 2nd amendment people up in arms are state and local restrictions, not federal ones.

What brings you to the conclusion this has anything to do with 'confederates'?

I don't see that, that's why. In my view, the "they're comin fer our guns and gunna put us in FEMA" mentality is an anxiety about the erosion of posse comitatus.

407 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 7:25:48am

re: #398 sattv4u2

What brings you to the conclusion this has anything to do with 'confederates'?

Are you new here???
//

Boo hoo, OC talks about 'confederates', waah.

408 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 7:26:33am

re: #396 oaktree

So you're saying it's less of a protection fixation than a gun fixation? Sort of like some people have automobile fixations, or shoe fixations?

(Heh, imagine the outrage if there were Federal regulations on how many pairs of shoes you were allowed to own.)

Shoes don't kill people, people kill people.

///

409 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 7:26:49am

re: #402 Kreniigh

Not coyotes... Wolfen.

And it's just a coincidence that both Dresden and Kolchak (the series at least) were based in Chicago?

410 sattv4u2  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 7:27:01am

re: #407 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

Boo hoo, OC talks obsesses about 'confederates', waah.

411 Obdicut  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 7:27:51am

re: #406 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

I don't see that, that's why.

But it's true. Most of the challenges from the NRA against gun restrictions have been on the local and state level.

In my view, the "they're comin fer our guns and gunna put us in FEMA" mentality is an anxiety about the erosion of posse comitatus.

But that's a hyperbolic and simplistic definition of the attitude. Rightwingconspirator doesn't think anyone is going to put him into FEMA. He's a gun rights advocate nonetheless.

I'm sure there's plenty of conspiracy theorists who are also die-hard 2nd amendment supporters, but I have no clue why you think the overlap is so high.

Can you explain?

412 sattv4u2  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 7:29:22am

re: #411 Obdicut

Rightwingconspirator doesn't think anyone is going to put him into FEMA. He's a gun rights advocate nonetheless.

Raises hand

413 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 7:29:40am

re: #411 Obdicut

But it's true. Most of the challenges from the NRA against gun restrictions have been on the local and state level.


But that's a hyperbolic and simplistic definition of the attitude. Rightwingconspirator doesn't think anyone is going to put him into FEMA. He's a gun rights advocate nonetheless.

I'm sure there's plenty of conspiracy theorists who are also die-hard 2nd amendment supporters, but I have no clue why you think the overlap is so high.

Can you explain?

I cede my line of questioning to Obdicut. Fewer people to respond to.

414 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 7:29:48am

re: #411 Obdicut

Can you explain?

Why do you think so many are 2nd amendment obsessors are 2nd amendment single-issuers?

415 Obdicut  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 7:30:30am

re: #407 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

I think there's a ton of dangerous confederate thinking out there, with people who have openly been secessionist running for president, with so many GOP-controlled state legislatures passing laws in open defiance of federal voting law, immigration law, and Roe v. Wade. There's a ton of nasty Confederate feeling out there.

That doesn't mean that every issue should be identified as a confederate one, or assumed to be one. I don't think the resistance to action (and even information) on AGW, for example, is a confederate resistance, even though there's a strong overlap between those denying AGW and those who hold confederate opinions.

416 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 7:30:34am

re: #410 sattv4u2

Yep, I say things you don't like, and I say them often.

I'm glad that particular one bugs you so.

417 sattv4u2  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 7:31:38am

re: #416 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

Yep, I say things you don't like, and I say them often.

I'm glad that particular one bugs you so.

"bugs" me? Hardly

Amuses, greatly!

418 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 7:32:03am

re: #414 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

Why do you think so many are 2nd amendment obsessors are 2nd amendment single-issuers?

That's deflection. He is asking you about your opinion/viewpoint and you simply reflected to ask him his.

IF you're trying to get a baseline from him to get proper common terms before responding please be more forward about establishing that as your aim.

419 sattv4u2  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 7:32:55am

CAJUN ALERT!!!

:)

420 Obdicut  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 7:33:05am

re: #414 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

Why do you think so many are 2nd amendment obsessors are 2nd amendment single-issuers?

I don't actually know what those numbers are. Do you?

I think that some of those who are 2nd amendment single-issue voters view it as some sort of totemic right whose restriction heralds more and more restrictions on other rights. I don't think they're right, but that's a far cry from actively fearing the FEMA camps.

421 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 7:34:28am

re: #415 Obdicut

That doesn't mean that every issue should be identified as a confederate one, or assumed to be one.

I don't either. I do think it's become quite fashionable to claim to be "small government", "states rights", argue for bullshit like "nullification", and such. That was the appeal of the tea "gubmint's too big"/obamunism is socialism party.

Confederate mentality.

422 reine.de.tout  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 7:34:44am

re: #414 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

Why do you think so many are 2nd amendment obsessors are 2nd amendment single-issuers?

I see lots of folks who are single-issuers. Some, for instance, harp on "confederates". I'm still not sure exactly what that means.

423 sattv4u2  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 7:34:50am

re: #420 Obdicut

that's a far cry from actively fearing the FEMA camps.

I'm actually looking forward to them

I hear the appetizers are great and free popcorn on movie nights!

424 Obdicut  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 7:35:29am

re: #421 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

I don't either. I do think it's become quite fashionable to claim to be "small government", "states rights", argue for bullshit like "nullification", and such. That was the appeal of the tea "gubmint's too big"/obamunism is socialism party.

Confederate mentality.

What you just wrote doesn't make any sense to me. If you just think it's fashionable, and not real, to argue for states rights, what exactly is your definition of confederate mentality?

What do you mean by 'confederate'?

425 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 7:36:07am

re: #420 Obdicut

I don't actually know what those numbers are. Do you?

I think that some of those who are 2nd amendment single-issue voters view it as some sort of totemic right whose restriction heralds more and more restrictions on other rights. I don't think they're right, but that's a far cry from actively fearing the FEMA camps.

More like idolatry, if you ask me.

426 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 7:36:29am

re: #424 Obdicut

What you just wrote doesn't make any sense to me. If you just think it's fashionable, and not real, to argue for states rights, what exactly is your definition of confederate mentality?

What do you mean by 'confederate'?

Literally, against the feds.

427 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 7:37:32am

re: #422 reine.de.tout

I see lots of folks who are single-issuers. Some, for instance, harp on "confederates".

Some, such as...

e_e

I'm still not sure exactly what that means.

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

428 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 7:38:23am

re: #418 oaktree

That's deflection. He is asking you about your opinion/viewpoint and you simply reflected to ask him his.

TMK, that is what started the conversation about the 2nd amendment.

429 kirkspencer  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 7:38:28am

This, from 1997, is still the strongest reality check I know to the firearm defense argument.

The biggest reason it's strong is it doesn't say use of firearms as defense doesn't happen. It instead applies a variety of tests to claims of numbers of uses and concludes the numbers claimed are wildly overstated.

(my favorite: "Since only 42% of U.S. Households own firearms, and since the victims in two thirds of the occupied dwellings were asleep, the 2.5 million figure requires us to believe that burglary victims use their guns in self-defense more than 100% of the time.")

430 Obdicut  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 7:39:18am

re: #426 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

Literally, against the feds.

So, if I think that the feds shouldn't raid California's pot farms, does that make me confederate?

And in what way is, for example, the NRA case against Chicago's restriction on handguns-- which was actually an appeal to federal authority in the Supreme Court over the states-- a confederate way of thinking?

That's a case where the NRA was objecting to a local ordinance, and appealed to Federal authority as higher than local-- or state-- authority.

In what way is that Confederate?

431 Donna Ballard  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 7:42:09am

Good Morning and Happy Friday Kids, how's with everyone this lovely but cold Friday morning?

432 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 7:42:13am

re: #430 Obdicut

So, if I think that the feds shouldn't raid California's pot farms, does that make me confederate?

And in what way is, for example, the NRA case against Chicago's restriction on handguns-- which was actually an appeal to federal authority in the Supreme Court over the states-- a confederate way of thinking?

That's a case where the NRA was objecting to a local ordinance, and appealed to Federal authority as higher than local-- or state-- authority.

In what way is that Confederate?

Don't capitalize that "C", please. I very rarely, if ever, do. I'm not talking about neo-Confederacy, though they are obviously confederates.

Most people understand the need for state and local autonomy within a federation of states. That's what states rights is supposed to be, and that's what your examples are. Confederates, in my view -- both capital and lower-case "c" -- have distorted states rights into something else.

433 Donna Ballard  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 7:45:38am

Try this definition on for size: confederate
It may help clarify the issue. Or not!

434 Obdicut  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 7:48:00am

re: #432 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

Don't capitalize that "C", please. I very rarely, if ever, do. I'm not talking about neo-Confederacy, though they are obviously confederates.

Um, okay. Don't fret about my capitalization; it's relatively random.

Most people understand the need for state and local autonomy within a federation of states. That's what states rights is supposed to be, and that's what your examples are. Confederates, in my view -- both capital and lower-case "c" -- have distorted states rights into something else.

But the examples I'm giving-- most of the examples of gun rights in law-- are based on appeals to the authority of the federal government by the NRA, NOT states rights arguments. So your claim that guns rights and confederate views go together is rather diminished by that.

What I'm objecting to is you labeling the 2nd-amendment rights supporters as confederates for their support for an amendment to the (federal) constitution.

I just don't get how, no matter how vehement, support for a federal amendment works out to being against the federal government.

Can you explain?

435 Obdicut  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 7:49:43am

re: #433 Dragon_Lady

The modern meaning is someone who thinks that states rights are more important than a strong centralized government; someone who believes in decentralization of power and authority.

It's a kind of incoherent position on its own, because the 'states' are purely arbitrary divisions and levels of government.

436 darthstar  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 7:50:39am

Good morning confederating confederates of the confederation!

437 Donna Ballard  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 7:50:43am

re: #406 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

I don't see that, that's why. In my view, the "they're comin fer our guns and gunna put us in FEMA" mentality is an anxiety about the erosion of posse comitatus.

Its a historical fact that when a government disarms its citizens they generally will then forcibly silence them afterward. Case in fact Nazi Germany. Try as you will to argue for it, outlawing firearms is a very bad idea for John Q. Public.

438 darthstar  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 7:51:11am

re: #436 darthstar

Good morning confederating confederates of the confederation!

Not to be confused with the Confederacy, of course...

439 prairiefire  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 7:51:26am

re: #436 darthstar

Good morning confederating confederates of the confederation!

Morning, comrade.

440 Obdicut  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 7:51:34am

re: #437 Dragon_Lady

Its a historical fact that when a government disarms its citizens they generally will then forcibly silence them afterward.

No, that is absolutely not true. There are many, many countries in Europe where private ownership of guns is heavily restricted, but the citizens are not 'forcibly silenced'.

441 Donna Ballard  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 7:52:27am

re: #435 Obdicut

The modern meaning is someone who thinks that states rights are more important than a strong centralized government; someone who believes in decentralization of power and authority.

It's a kind of incoherent position on its own, because the 'states' are purely arbitrary divisions and levels of government.

I agree, but a lot of people are trying to put a new spin on it that has nothing to do with the actual definition of the word and that's becoming a bit annoying to me.

442 Cannadian Club Akbar  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 7:52:47am

re: #439 prairiefire

Psst. Answered.

443 aagcobb  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 7:53:30am

re: #430 Obdicut

So, if I think that the feds shouldn't raid California's pot farms, does that make me confederate?

And in what way is, for example, the NRA case against Chicago's restriction on handguns-- which was actually an appeal to federal authority in the Supreme Court over the states-- a confederate way of thinking?

That's a case where the NRA was objecting to a local ordinance, and appealed to Federal authority as higher than local-- or state-- authority.

In what way is that Confederate?

I think the link between the 2d Amendment and the neo-confederates is the oft expressed rightwing view that the people need guns in order to defend themselves from the government. its a view belied by the actual language of the Constitution, which expressly states that the reason for the 2d Amendment is to provide for a "well-regulated militia", and one of the express purposes of the militia is to supress insurrections against the federal government. But its an article of faith among neo-confederates, and many of them express the belief that they will soon have to exercise their "2d Amendment remedies" against the Obama Administration.

444 albusteve  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 7:53:33am

re: #441 Dragon_Lady

I agree, but a lot of people are trying to put a new spin on it that has nothing to do with the actual definition of the word and that's becoming a bit annoying to me.


that's the point

445 Bulworth  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 7:54:33am

I feel especially bad for the good folks at newsmax, who the candidates not named Gingrich and Santorum are also stiffing. RINO's!! //

446 HappyWarrior  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 7:55:16am

I don't blame gun owners for worrying but I have no respect for Wayne LaPierre going around saying Obama's not restricting gun ownership to lure gun owners into a false sense of security.

447 Donna Ballard  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 7:57:47am

re: #440 Obdicut

No, that is absolutely not true. There are many, many countries in Europe where private ownership of guns is heavily restricted, but the citizens are not 'forcibly silenced'.

Oh really? Hmmm, seems to me that if they speak out they tend to loose their jobs and income then disappear from the public eye. Is that not forcible? Or they just quietly frighten them into shutting their mouths and the world is none to the wiser about it. I have friends all over Europe and I hear a lot of whats going on over there, and this seems to be a re-occurring theme. One day their protesting the next all you hear is silence. How do you suppose their accomplishing that? I for one would sincerely like to know, no sarcasm intended or conferred.

448 Obdicut  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 7:58:07am

re: #443 aagcobb

I think the link between the 2d Amendment and the neo-confederates is the oft expressed rightwing view that the people need guns in order to defend themselves from the government.

Sure. But I don't think those are the majority of 2nd amendment supporters; I think most are, like RightWingConspirator, those who view a gun as a tool of self-defense in the absence of government protection-- when the cops aren't there.

There's definitely 2nd amendment supporters who are confederates. But to say that all defense of the 2nd amendment stems from confederate thinking is foolish, especially when the most common remedy of those supporting the 2nd amendment is to appeal to the federal government.

449 Obdicut  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 7:58:43am

re: #447 Dragon_Lady

Oh really? Hmmm, seems to me that if they speak out they tend to loose their jobs and income then disappear from the public eye.

Huh? Like where? France? England? Germany? Spain?

Where on earth are you talking about?

450 aagcobb  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 7:59:19am

re: #437 Dragon_Lady

Its a historical fact that when a government disarms its citizens they generally will then forcibly silence them afterward. Case in fact Nazi Germany. Try as you will to argue for it, outlawing firearms is a very bad idea for John Q. Public.

down ding for Godwinning. You have one Nazi Germmany, I have a bunch of western democracies with strict handgun laws and freedom of speech.

451 Donna Ballard  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 7:59:28am

re: #448 Obdicut

Sure. But I don't think those are the majority of 2nd amendment supporters; I think most are, like RightWingConspirator, those who view a gun as a tool of self-defense in the absence of government protection-- when the cops aren't there.

There's definitely 2nd amendment supporters who are confederates. But to say that all defense of the 2nd amendment stems from confederate thinking is foolish, especially when the most common remedy of those supporting the 2nd amendment is to appeal to the federal government.

Thank you Obdi! :-)

452 Obdicut  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 8:01:13am

re: #451 Dragon_Lady

No problem. However, your Nazi Germany argument really doesn't make any sense. Germany STILL has massively restrictive gun control laws, and yet it's not Nazi anymore. So, the idea that gun control leads to Nazi-like oppression is rather disproved just in the example of Germany.

453 albusteve  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 8:01:52am

I love the smell of gun oil in the morning

454 aagcobb  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 8:02:20am

re: #447 Dragon_Lady

Oh really? Hmmm, seems to me that if they speak out they tend to loose their jobs and income then disappear from the public eye. Is that not forcible? Or they just quietly frighten them into shutting their mouths and the world is none to the wiser about it. I have friends all over Europe and I hear a lot of whats going on over there, and this seems to be a re-occurring theme. One day their protesting the next all you hear is silence. How do you suppose their accomplishing that? I for one would sincerely like to know, no sarcasm intended or conferred.

Care to provide any actual examples? This looks like the kind of vague fearmongering I usually see from wingnuts.

455 Donna Ballard  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 8:03:22am

re: #450 aagcobb

down ding for Godwinning. You have one Nazi Germmany, I have a bunch of western democracies with strict handgun laws and freedom of speech.

You would down ding me for that? Gee thanks! My first ever! Tough nasty crowd this morning. // You really don't like 2nd amendment gun rights advocates do you? Good thing I have chores to get done and was about to log out anyways or I'd argue with you about that. Later folks! Have a great Friday and a nice weekend everyone, Keep Laughing!

456 darthstar  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 8:03:45am

re: #450 aagcobb

down ding for Godwinning. You have one Nazi Germmany, I have a bunch of western democracies with strict handgun laws and freedom of speech.

I got a couple Nazi Germanies you can have. There are plenty more where they came from. You can even find them on food discussion boards. In fact, a fun (but pointless) project would be to create a search engine (call it Googledwin) that indexed all the Nazi Germanies for easy reference.

457 Obdicut  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 8:03:53am

re: #455 Dragon_Lady

Okay, but do consider that your Germany argument actually works against itself.

458 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 8:05:10am

re: #453 albusteve

I love the smell of gun oil in the morning

it smells like... sewing machines in my case since I use Singer.

O_o

459 albusteve  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 8:06:36am

re: #458 oaktree

it smells like... sewing machines in my case since I use Singer.

O_o

in what caliber?

460 prairiefire  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 8:09:10am

re: #458 oaktree

it smells like... sewing machines in my case since I use Singer.

O_o

I want to get a sewing machine. I just always remember my mom and my grandmas cussing at theirs.

461 darthstar  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 8:10:34am

re: #458 oaktree

it smells like... sewing machines in my case since I use Singer.

O_o

Oh dear...I feel a pun serge coming on...

462 lawhawk  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 8:11:20am

re: #461 darthstar

Someone will have to stitch something together. Hemming and hawing will do no good.

463 Sheila Broflovski  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 8:11:49am

This thread is unraveling.

464 darthstar  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 8:11:51am

re: #460 prairiefire

I want to get a sewing machine. I just always remember my mom and my grandmas cussing at theirs.

I want a sewing machine too. But my wife is buying me a surfboard for Xmas. I may still buy one. I'm always hemming for her by hand.

465 kirkspencer  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 8:12:13am

re: #461 darthstar

Oh dear...I feel a pun serge coming on...

Well, brother, let us hem in that serge before it warps the thread.

466 darthstar  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 8:12:37am

re: #462 lawhawk

Someone will have to stitch something together. Hemming and hawing will do no good.

Maybe we can still selvage it.

467 lawhawk  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 8:13:08am

re: #466 darthstar

A stitch in time saves nine threads. /

468 darthstar  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 8:13:34am

re: #465 kirkspencer

Well, brother, let us hem in that serge before it warps the thread.

Too late...I can already see it bobbin.

469 prairiefire  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 8:13:35am

re: #464 darthstar

I want a sewing machine too. But my wife is buying me a surfboard for Xmas. I may still buy one. I'm always hemming for her by hand.

My daughter has talent. I could take her out of school and set her to work making doll clothes to sell on Ebay.

470 darthstar  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 8:16:53am

re: #469 prairiefire

My daughter has talent. I could take her out of school and set her to work making doll clothes to sell on Ebay.

If she's still in elementary school then Newt already has a job for her.

471 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 8:21:40am

What have I done?!?
(Goes to get another cup of tea to cry in.)

And are FTL dogs "warp and woof" or simply an allamagoosa?

472 Obdicut  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 8:22:30am

re: #471 oaktree

What have I done?!?
(Goes to get another cup of tea to cry in.)

And are FTL dogs "warp and woof" or simply an allamagoosa?

Faster than light dogs?

473 Shropshire_Slasher  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 8:25:50am

re: #231 000G

re: #235 ggt

Planning something illegal but not carrying it out, there is a name for that isn't there? Something that you can be charged with? I can't think of it.

474 Obdicut  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 8:26:09am

re: #471 oaktree

Image: hyperspeed-dog.jpg

475 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 8:26:50am

re: #434 Obdicut

Um, okay. Don't fret about my capitalization; it's relatively random.

As I just explained, the way I talk about it, the capitalization is never random. I use a small "c" very deliberately. It's simply a descriptive term. That's what's at question here, my usage of the term.

I just don't get how, no matter how vehement, support for a federal amendment works out to being against the federal government.

I've noticed that "Constitutional conservatives" also fetishize and distort that document. Same mechanism.

476 darthstar  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 8:27:24am

"South of Heaven" - a Slayer Xmas lights show.

[Link: www.metalinjection.net...]

477 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 8:27:53am

re: #437 Dragon_Lady

Its a historical fact that when a government disarms its citizens they generally will then forcibly silence them afterward. Case in fact Nazi Germany. Try as you will to argue for it, outlawing firearms is a very bad idea for John Q. Public.

I don't see anyone trying to argue for outlawing firearms or for a government disarming its citizens.

478 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 8:28:23am

re: #452 Obdicut

No problem. However, your Nazi Germany argument really doesn't make any sense. Germany STILL has massively restrictive gun control laws, and yet it's not Nazi anymore. So, the idea that gun control leads to Nazi-like oppression is rather disproved just in the example of Germany.

The "good people will use guns against bad govt" argument doesn't make sense to me, because the reverse - "bad people will use guns against not-bad govt" is just as likely.

479 Killgore Trout  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 8:28:32am

Check Out Rare Full Lunar Eclipse Saturday Morning

The year's final and, many experts say, best chance to see a lunar eclipse will occur early Saturday morning. But be warned, if you miss it, the next total lunar eclipse isn't set until April 2014.

For just under an hour, the moon will almost completely disappear, expected to turn a dark, dusty red. Depending on tomorrow's atmospheric conditions, astronomers said the moon may even turn a rich orange. The hue comes from sunlight bent by the Earth's atmosphere, and usually, most colors other than red are absorbed by the air.

Because the moon will be deep into the western horizon by the time of the eclipse, about 7:06 a.m., it will seem larger than usual to stargazers west of the Mississippi.

480 iossarian  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 8:28:58am

I was once disappeared in the UK for criticizing my local council's decision to shift rubbish collection from Tuesday to Wednesday. And all because I didn't own an Uzi with which to fight back.

True story.

/

481 darthstar  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 8:30:35am

re: #479 Killgore Trout

Check Out Rare Full Lunar Eclipse Saturday Morning

This could be fun to watch...yet another reminder that I need to buy a decent camera.

482 Obdicut  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 8:31:09am

re: #475 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

As I just explained, the way I talk about it, the capitalization is never random. I use a small "c" very deliberately. It's simply a descriptive term. That's what's at question here, my usage of the term.

Yeah, I understand that. And I always mean small-c confederates, too. I just occasionally fuck up and capitalize it.

I've noticed that "Constitutional conservatives" also fetishize and distort that document. Same mechanism.

I'm sorry, but when you try to make your argument two sentences at a time only in replies, it really doesn't come across that well. It leaves me largely guessing at what you're actually saying.

Again: There are a lot of 2nd amendment supporters who believe it to be a right that exists because the cops aren't always going to be there. I think this is foolish of them, since the statistical likelihood of that scenario is so rare, and the negatives of widely available guns are so large.

But that view is not at all related to the idea that the 2nd amendment is there so that people can protect themselves against the government.

By conflating the two of them, you are confusing the issue and broadening the term 'confederate' so broadly as to sap away any descriptive power it has.

483 Obdicut  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 8:32:28am

re: #478 Sergey Romanov

The "good people will use guns against bad govt" argument doesn't make sense to me, because the reverse - "bad people will use guns against not-bad govt" is just as likely.

Yeah. Lots of lynch mobs succeeded because they were heavily armed and thus able to enforce their will on local government-- when that government wasn't already complicit, that is.

484 Killgore Trout  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 8:34:22am

re: #481 darthstar

This could be fun to watch...yet another reminder that I need to buy a decent camera.

We usually miss most celestial event here in Portland because of the clouds and fog. We might be able to see this one if the weather holds out. I have a lot of dirt to move over the next week but it's fucking cold out there this morning.

485 darthstar  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 8:35:35am

re: #484 Killgore Trout

We usually miss most celestial event here in Portland because of the clouds and fog. We might be able to see this one if the weather holds out. I have a lot of dirt to move over the next week but it's fucking cold out there this morning.

It's been gorgeous here in Half Moon Bay for the last month...waiting for some winter storms, actually...but enjoying the clear nights all the same. I like watching all the fishing boats at night returning to the harbor.

486 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 8:36:55am

re: #483 Obdicut

It's like, there's some objective criterion by which all the freedom-loving citizens will arise against a dictatorship that somehow crawled upon them.

Given that there is no such objective criterion, and also given how many people already view the govt as repressive... Well, the Hutaree thought they were justified.

487 Killgore Trout  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 8:37:46am

re: #485 darthstar

It's been gorgeous here in Half Moon Bay for the last month...waiting for some winter storms, actually...but enjoying the clear nights all the same. I like watching all the fishing boats at night returning to the harbor.

Are you saving up to buy a boat yet?

488 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 8:39:02am

re: #483 Obdicut

Yeah. Lots of lynch mobs succeeded because they were heavily armed and thus able to enforce their will on local government-- when that government wasn't already complicit, that is.

I guess a tangent question would be whether one thought the forms of the American Old West were a good or bad thing:
- variable law enforcement
- limited or distant state/territorial/federal authority
- threat from non-assimilated natives
- sparse population density
- sparse transportation and communications networks (pre-railroad esp.)
- and other limitations of that period (medicine, weather prediction, etc.)

A lot of fiction almost sees it as a Heroic Age. But it's also fraught with the threat of arbitrary violence and death from various means.

489 Obdicut  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 8:40:47am

re: #488 oaktree

In most Wild West towns, you had to surrender your guns upon entering them, and open carry would get you shot.

The whole 'everyone wandering around shooting stuff up' thing is a Hollywood myth. The tough-ass sheriffs were tough because they enforced the 'no guns in town' laws.

[Link: articles.latimes.com...]

490 Killgore Trout  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 8:46:36am

re: #489 Obdicut

In most Wild West towns, you had to surrender your guns upon entering them, and open carry would get you shot.

The whole 'everyone wandering around shooting stuff up' thing is a Hollywood myth. The tough-ass sheriffs were tough because they enforced the 'no guns in town' laws.

[Link: articles.latimes.com...]

Law enforcement has always been among the biggest supporters of gun control because they have to deal with the consequences.

491 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 8:49:54am

re: #482 Obdicut

Yeah, I understand that. And I always mean small-c confederates, too. I just occasionally fuck up and capitalize it.

I'm sorry, but when you try to make your argument two sentences at a time only in replies, it really doesn't come across that well. It leaves me largely guessing at what you're actually saying.

Again: There are a lot of 2nd amendment supporters who believe it to be a right that exists because the cops aren't always going to be there. I think this is foolish of them, since the statistical likelihood of that scenario is so rare, and the negatives of widely available guns are so large.

Got numbers?

But that view is not at all related to the idea that the 2nd amendment is there so that people can protect themselves against the government.

By conflating the two of them, you are confusing the issue and broadening the term 'confederate' so broadly as to sap away any descriptive power it has.

Lol what "descriptive power" did my use of the word confederate ever have? So you think I've misapplied it; that's fine with me.

492 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 8:50:58am

re: #483 Obdicut

Yeah. Lots of lynch mobs succeeded because they were heavily armed and thus able to enforce their will on local government-- when that government wasn't already complicit, that is.

States rights, small government, ftw, dudes.

493 Obdicut  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 9:08:21am

re: #491 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

Got numbers?

No, this is just anecdotal. Do you?

Lol what "descriptive power" did my use of the word confederate ever have? So you think I've misapplied it; that's fine with me.

I think you've misapplied it in a way that goes against your own argument and interests; there really are a lot of problems being caused by confederate thinking out there. Confederate attitudes have become insidious and are championed by the GOP. You've correctly identified that-- why are you just fine with the idea you've misapplied it?

Are you just completely dismissive of my argument, or what?

494 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 9:22:53am

MSNBC blog blocked here.

Can anyone provide context on an article:
Israelis to debate ban on Muslim call to prayer

Can I presume that this is some sort of local issue being misrepresented instead of something that on headline alone appears to be a massively stupid move if being attempted on a national scale?

495 Obdicut  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 9:24:29am

re: #494 oaktree

It's being attempted on a national scale.

Anastassia Michaeli, a member of the Knesset, will put forward a bill proposing a ban on mosques using loudspeakers to announce the call to prayer.

496 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 9:27:27am

re: #495 Obdicut

It's being attempted on a national scale.

Is there any realistic basis for wanting to do this beyond religious prejudice?

497 Obdicut  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 9:28:55am

re: #496 oaktree

Is there any realistic basis for wanting to do this beyond religious prejudice?

It's loud.

498 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 9:30:33am

re: #497 Obdicut

It's loud.

A given. Does this jive with other ordnances in Israel regarding generating noise? e.g. are church bells being banned as well? Use of horns?

499 Obdicut  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 9:31:45am

re: #498 oaktree

A given. Does this jive with other ordnances in Israel regarding generating noise? e.g. are church bells being banned as well? Use of horns?

No clue. It's coming from the ultra-nationalist party, so it's probably just an attempt to fuck with Muslims.

500 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 9:33:18am

re: #499 Obdicut

No clue. It's coming from the ultra-nationalist party, so it's probably just an attempt to fuck with Muslims.

Thanks for the replies. I'll look into this independently rather than having you do it. ;)

501 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 9:33:30am

re: #498 oaktree

Apparently it's loud at inappropriate times - "The 4:50 a.m. call is considered especially annoying". If such is the case, then I'm on the side of prohibition of the specific annoying calls.

502 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 9:36:56am

re: #501 Sergey Romanov

Her proposal stipulates that “religious freedom doesn’t need to harm the quality of life.”

- and I agree with that. However, this should apply to all religions equally. For example, there shouldn't be any official measures to curb activity on Sabbaths.

503 Daniel Ballard  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 9:51:52am

re: #440 Obdicut

The point is resistance to a takeover by a tyrant or invading force is deeply weakened by strongly restricting gun ownership.

504 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 9:54:37am

re: #493 Obdicut

why are you just fine with the idea you've misapplied it?

You misunderstood or did not read carefully.

I'm fine if you think I've misapplied what's really my own terminology. I'm not dismissive of your argument at all, I'm just not out to convince you or anyone else of the rightness of my position. I don't care if you think I'm right in my usage of "confederates", or not.

505 Obdicut  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 9:55:49am

re: #503 Rightwingconspirator

The point is resistance to a takeover by a tyrant or invading force is deeply weakened by strongly restricting gun ownership.

I don't think it's deeply weakened. There haven't, to my knowledge, been any cases of a state resisting, with guns, takeover by a tyrant, have there?

As for an invading force, that's rather moot in the days of modern military.

And again: if Germany is the example, then Germany with restrictive gun laws has seen the rise of Nazism, and it has also seen peaceful Democracy for decades.

506 aagcobb  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 10:13:13am

re: #503 Rightwingconspirator

The point is resistance to a takeover by a tyrant or invading force is deeply weakened by strongly restricting gun ownership.

Wolverines!

507 Decatur Deb  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 10:37:11am

re: #505 Obdicut

I don't think it's deeply weakened. There haven't, to my knowledge, been any cases of a state resisting, with guns, takeover by a tyrant, have there?

As for an invading force, that's rather moot in the days of modern military.

And again: if Germany is the example, then Germany with restrictive gun laws has seen the rise of Nazism, and it has also seen peaceful Democracy for decades.

The Italians Republicans lost 40,000 partisans in successful resistance to Mussolini. The Spanish Republic lost 110,000, Army and irregulars, failing to hold off Franco. The Finns fought the Russians well enough to have their choice of tyrant allies.

508 Daniel Ballard  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 11:38:05am

re: #395 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

Nothing to do with confederates. Not a whit.

509 Obdicut  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 11:46:27am

re: #507 Decatur Deb

I wouldn't say the Italian resistance was successful. And the Spanish I'd call a civil war-- that guns are useful in a civil war, sure. But that's a good point; they might have won, and gotten Franco out. It's possible. That might have been an example.

And the Finns just have no comparison, but their military did the main fighting-- including the volunteer corps that formed overnight. And there, their outdoorsmanship, including hunting, actually did help them fight. But then again, they also allied with Hitler in order to get material to fight that fight.


This article has been archived.
Comments are closed.

Jump to top

Create a PageThis is the LGF Pages posting bookmarklet. To use it, drag this button to your browser's bookmark bar, and title it 'LGF Pages' (or whatever you like). Then browse to a site you want to post, select some text on the page to use for a quote, click the bookmarklet, and the Pages posting window will appear with the title, text, and any embedded video or audio files already filled in, ready to go.
Or... you can just click this button to open the Pages posting window right away.
Last updated: 2023-04-04 11:11 am PDT LGF User's Guide RSS Feeds

Help support Little Green Footballs!

Subscribe now for ad-free access!Register and sign in to a free LGF account before subscribing, and your ad-free access will be automatically enabled.

Donate with
PayPal Cash.app
Recent PagesClick to refresh
Texas County at Center of Border Fight Is Overwhelmed by Migrant Deaths EAGLE PASS, Tex. - The undertaker lighted a cigarette and held it between his latex-gloved fingers as he stood over the bloated body bag lying in the bed of his battered pickup truck. The woman had been fished out ...
Cheechako
3 days ago
Views: 149 • Comments: 0 • Rating: 1