Direct Link Confirmed Between Manning and Julian Assange

Smoking gun

US NewsDecember 2011 • Views: 19,819

For the first time, a direct link has been confirmed between Bradley Manning, the soldier accused of the largest leak of government documents in US history, and Wikileaks founder Julian Assange: Jolt in WikiLeaks Case: Feds Found Manning-Assange Chat Logs on Laptop.

A government digital forensic examiner retrieved communications between accused WikiLeaks source Bradley Manning and an online chat user identified on Manning’s computer as “Julian Assange,” the name of the founder of the secret-spilling site that published hundreds of thousands of U.S. diplomatic cables.

Investigators also found an Icelandic phone number for Assange, and a chat with another hacker located in the U.S., where Manning says he’s responsible for the leaking of the “Collateral Murder” Apache helicopter video released by Wikileaks in spring 2010.

Until Monday’s revelation, there’s been no reports that the government had evidence linking the two men, other than chat logs provided to the FBI by hacker Adrian Lamo. Assange is being investigated by a federal grand jury, but has not been charged with any crime as publishing classified information is not generally considered a crime in the U.S. But if prosecutors could show that Assange directed Manning, that could complicate Assange’s defense that WikiLeaks is simply a journalistic endeavor.

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128 comments

Daniel Ballard Mon, Dec 19, 2011 2:00:09pm

Slam, meet Dunk.

Kragar Mon, Dec 19, 2011 2:01:32pm

Publishing leaked materials; not a crime
Helping to facilitate the leak in the first place; Bad times a coming.

Obdicut Mon, Dec 19, 2011 2:02:43pm

re: #2 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

He may not have done that, explicitly, either.

Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Mon, Dec 19, 2011 2:03:03pm

Assange is dust. Though I don't imagine he had any plans to vacation in the US at any time.

EdDantes Mon, Dec 19, 2011 2:04:22pm

There is no link between Peyton Manning and Julian Assange.

Kragar Mon, Dec 19, 2011 2:04:29pm

re: #3 Obdicut

He may not have done that, explicitly, either.

True, but he also claimed there was no link, and now one has been found.

Darth Vader Gargoyle Mon, Dec 19, 2011 2:04:53pm

re: #5 EdDantes

There is no link between Peyton Manning and Julian Assange.

Eli is the mastermind.

EdDantes Mon, Dec 19, 2011 2:05:52pm

re: #7 rwdflynavy

Eli is the mastermind.

I have always looked at Eli askance.

Kragar Mon, Dec 19, 2011 2:09:09pm

re: #8 EdDantes

I have always looked at Eli askance.

Henry set the events in motion which we see here today.

Kronocide Mon, Dec 19, 2011 2:22:37pm

The Collateral Murder video was pretty scandalous in and of itself.

BishopX Mon, Dec 19, 2011 2:24:17pm

Was anyone really surprised by this?

Killgore Trout Mon, Dec 19, 2011 2:25:00pm

re: #10 BigPapa

The Collateral Murder video was pretty scandalous in and of itself.

It depends.If you watched the dishonestly edited version that wikileaks originally put out and didn't understand the context then I'm sure it looked pretty bad. It takes a little bit of research but the information is easy to find.

Killgore Trout Mon, Dec 19, 2011 2:26:19pm

re: #11 BishopX

Was anyone really surprised by this?

I'm pretty sure the conversations between Assange and Manning were already known. I think the key factors is how much Assange encouraged and assisted Manning.

Darth Vader Gargoyle Mon, Dec 19, 2011 2:26:56pm

re: #12 Killgore Trout

It depends.If you watched the ~~dishonestly~~ ~~edited~~ Breitbarted version that wikileaks originally put out and didn't understand the context then I'm sure it looked pretty bad. It takes a little bit of research but the information is easy to find.

Killgore Trout Mon, Dec 19, 2011 2:30:55pm

re: #14 rwdflynavy

The guy with the kids in the van still disturbs me. Either he was too lazy to drop off his kids before shuttling terrorists around the city or (more likely) he was using his children as human shields. Pretty sick stuff.

Alexzander Mon, Dec 19, 2011 2:33:19pm

re: #15 Killgore Trout

The guy with the kids in the van still disturbs me. Either he was too lazy to drop off his kids before shuttling terrorists around the city or (more likely) he was using his children as human shields. Pretty sick stuff.

How do you know he wasn't simply picking up injured people to take them to hospital?

Kronocide Mon, Dec 19, 2011 2:34:08pm

re: #12 Killgore Trout

It depends.If you watched the dishonestly edited version that wikileaks originally put out and didn't understand the context then I'm sure it looked pretty bad. It takes a little bit of research but the information is easy to find.

I meant in context of the outright propaganda that was created by the Breitbartian editing of Collateral Murder.

I can't take anybody as credible after doing something like that.

Killgore Trout Mon, Dec 19, 2011 2:37:24pm

re: #16 Alexzander

How do you know he wasn't simply picking up injured people to take them to hospital?

Becuase that's the whole reason why the helicopter was following the van. Near the beginning of the unedited version the pilots discuss how the van has been picking up and dropping off insurgents earlier. That's the whole reason they were following the van in the first place.

Alexzander Mon, Dec 19, 2011 2:42:36pm

re: #18 Killgore Trout

Becuase that's the whole reason why the helicopter was following the van. Near the beginning of the unedited version the pilots discuss how the van has been picking up and dropping off insurgents earlier. That's the whole reason they were following the van in the first place.

Ohh, its been a while since I thought about the incident. I thought that the individuals who were shot at weren't actually insurgents. Wasn't that the whole point of the 'scandal'? Or was it because there was a Reuters journalist embedded with the insurgents which made it a scandal? I thought My recollection was that they mistook a camera held by one of the journalists as a weapon and that in part instigated the initial firing. I could be completely wrong.

Killgore Trout Mon, Dec 19, 2011 2:47:30pm

re: #19 Alexzander

Ohh, its been a while since I thought about the incident. I thought that the individuals who were shot at weren't actually insurgents. Wasn't that the whole point of the 'scandal'? Or was it because there was a Reuters journalist embedded with the insurgents which made it a scandal? I thought My recollection was that they mistook a camera held by one of the journalists as a weapon and that in part instigated the initial firing. I could be completely wrong.

Yeah, the group of guys on foot were armed insurgents with a few embedded journalists. The unedited video starts with the pilots tracking a van shuttling insuergents around, that van shows up to pick up the wounded insurgents and gets engaged before they could evacuated the bodies. The guy had his kids in the van the whole time. I assume it helps him get through check points and makes ground troops think twice before firing.

Alexzander Mon, Dec 19, 2011 2:52:02pm

Can you find a source that suggests the van was definitely known to be transporting insurgents? The Wikipedia account (I know I know) confirms the my memory of the events. It mentions that the van appears after the initial firing and it does not suggest that it was specifically a transport vehicle for insurgents.

Attack on personnel

On the morning of July 12, 2007, the crews of two United States Army AH-64 Apache helicopters observed a gathering of men near an open air section of Baghdad from a distance up to 800 meters away.[7][18] The crews estimated that group was made up of twenty men.[22] This group included two members of staff from the Reuters news service, Namir Noor-Eldeen and Saeed Chmagh[18][23][24][25][26] who were not identified as journalists.[27] The helicopter crews mistook the photographic equipment carried by Chmagh and Noor-eldeen for weapons.[28]
A crew member reported seeing "five to six individuals with AK-47s" and requested authorization to engage.[18] The men then became obscured behind a building.[18] Once some men became visible again, both helicopters strafed a group of around ten men with 30 mm rounds.[17][18][29] Several men were killed, including Noor-Eldeen, and others wounded, including Chmagh.[7][18][24] At least one man in that group was carrying a RPG-7[1] and another was carrying an AK-47 or AKM assault rifle.[9][11][18]

Attack on a van

The wounded Chmagh was crawling on the ground,[24][30] when a van appeared at the scene.[18][24][30] The van had no visible markings to suggest it was an ambulance or a protected vehicle.[9] Unarmed[24] men attempted to get him to the van.[18][24][30] The watching helicopter crews requested permission to engage, stating "…looks like [the men] possibly uh picking up bodies and weapons" from the scene,[31] and upon receiving permission opened fire on the van and its occupants.[18][24][30] Two children sitting in the front seat were wounded but survived.[18][24][30] Chmagh was killed[18][24][30] along with the father of the children.[32]

Kragar Mon, Dec 19, 2011 2:56:05pm

re: #21 Alexzander

I would imagine additional data is likely classified, and the persons handling it actually did their jobs.

reine.de.tout Mon, Dec 19, 2011 3:02:33pm

re: #21 Alexzander

Can you find a source that suggests the van was definitely known to be transporting insurgents? The Wikipedia account (I know I know) confirms the my memory of the events. It mentions that the van appears after the initial firing and it does not suggest that it was specifically a transport vehicle for insurgents.

In the edited video, yes, the van shows up after the initial firing. When you look at the whole thing, it is as Killgore said. The source would be the full unedited video.

google search.

Killgore Trout Mon, Dec 19, 2011 3:03:21pm

re: #21 Alexzander

Excerpt from written transcript of 1st Air Cavalry Brigade investigation dated 20/07/2007

LTC When did you first identify the van?

CW3 The initial indication, sir when we rolled up and checked in, they said we had a black car, blue car, can’t remember probably black, 4-door passenger vehicle that keeps dropping off enemy personnel and picking them up from that area.

The van is also mentioned near the beginning of the unedited video.

darthstar Mon, Dec 19, 2011 3:04:08pm

Breaking: Photo of Manning and Assange showing each other their wick-e-leaks...

(safe for work...and Xmas!)

Kragar Mon, Dec 19, 2011 3:04:54pm

Fischer: 'Every Homosexual Represents a Heightened Security Risk'

Fischer said today that gays “represent an increased risk to national security,” calling openly gay service in the military “foolish.” While referencing the Bradley Manning case, Fischer said that “if you have compassion for people, you want homosexuals to get help,” and that gays should be prohibited from handling “sensitive national security information.”

Kronocide Mon, Dec 19, 2011 3:08:48pm

Japanese Binocular Soccer

Mostly sane, most of the time. Mon, Dec 19, 2011 3:09:52pm

re: #26 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Fischer: 'Every Homosexual Represents a Heightened Security Risk'

What about adulterers? Bearers of false witness (actually, a pretty good case there)? Coveters? People who disrespect their mamas? People who worship golden idols?

Eclectic Infidel Mon, Dec 19, 2011 3:11:52pm

re: #11 BishopX

Was anyone really surprised by this?

Nope. Manning is toast. Burnt toast.

Kragar Mon, Dec 19, 2011 3:13:27pm

re: #28 EmmmieG

What about adulterers? Bearers of false witness (actually, a pretty good case there)? Coveters? People who disrespect their mamas? People who worship golden idols?

People who think their imaginary friend is giving them advice on how other people should live their lives.

reine.de.tout Mon, Dec 19, 2011 3:13:32pm

re: #24 Killgore Trout

Excerpt from written transcript of 1st Air Cavalry Brigade investigation dated 20/07/2007

The van is also mentioned near the beginning of the unedited video.

Yes, right at the beginning, they talk about the vans.

SanFranciscoZionist Mon, Dec 19, 2011 3:14:54pm

re: #26 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Fischer: 'Every Homosexual Represents a Heightened Security Risk'

Do we have any reason to believe that Manning did anything he did because he was gay? Or, more importantly, that he would not have done the same thing if he were straight?

I reckon most people charged with...well...anything...are straight. Does this mean we should work to get rid of straight people from positions of power?

garhighway Mon, Dec 19, 2011 3:15:14pm

Was the Assange - Manning connection in serious doubt? Everything I had read made that sound like an established fact.

Kragar Mon, Dec 19, 2011 3:16:28pm

Louis C.K. to headline RTCA dinner

Kragar Mon, Dec 19, 2011 3:17:57pm

re: #33 garhighway

Was the Assange - Manning connection in serious doubt? Everything I had read made that sound like an established fact.

Assange has repeatedly denied having any first hand knowledge of where the materials came from.

Kragar Mon, Dec 19, 2011 3:20:07pm

Prisoner brain dead at Arpaio's jail, excessive force alleged

On the heels of a Justice Department report accusing Maricopa County Sheriff Joe Arpaio of violating the civil rights of Latinos, Arpaio’s department is under fire after an inmate became unresponsive while in custody and is now likely brain dead, according to media reports. The victim, Ernest M. Atencio, was brought to the Phoenix jail at 3 a.m. Friday when he became “abusive and combative, forcing police and sheriff’s deputies to use ‘defensive efforts’ in restraining him.” Officers took Atencio to a “safe cell” to calm down, and when medical staff checked on him 15 minutes later, he was unresponsive. The Daily Mail reports that officers used “excessive force,” and Atencio’s family claims he suffered a heart attack after being Tasered by police and did not receive treatment soon enough. “We have to do an investigation,” Arpaio said about the incident. “We do it all the time, we have an incident in the jails…we’re going to do this one too, very professionally.”

wrenchwench Mon, Dec 19, 2011 3:21:53pm

I finally got tired of the world's greatest Christmas album, A Latin Jazz Christmas, and have put on the antidote, Frankly a Cappella: The Persuasions Sing Zappa.

garhighway Mon, Dec 19, 2011 3:22:49pm

re: #35 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Assange has repeatedly denied having any first hand knowledge of where the materials came from.

Oh. Well, what with him being a scumbag and all, I probably tuned him out.

Thanks.

darthstar Mon, Dec 19, 2011 3:25:07pm

Image: webbercounty.jpg

Those are some eyes only a mother could love.

Poor bastards had their car burgled while they were getting cited for shoplifting.
[Link: news.yahoo.com...]

wrenchwench Mon, Dec 19, 2011 3:25:57pm

re: #37 wrenchwench

I finally got tired of the world's greatest Christmas album, A Latin Jazz Christmas, and have put on the antidote, Frankly a Cappella: The Persuasions Sing Zappa.

Youtube Video

Mostly sane, most of the time. Mon, Dec 19, 2011 3:27:21pm

re: #39 darthstar

Image: webbercounty.jpg

Those are some eyes only a mother could love.

Poor bastards had their car burgled while they were getting cited for shoplifting.
[Link: news.yahoo.com...]

Meth face. I hate to say it, but that looks like a meth face.

reine.de.tout Mon, Dec 19, 2011 3:32:39pm

re: #39 darthstar

Image: webbercounty.jpg

Those are some eyes only a mother could love.

Poor bastards had their car burgled while they were getting cited for shoplifting.
[Link: news.yahoo.com...]

Aw. Poor bastards indeed.
_{I am strangely unafflicted with any sympathy whatsoever}

Eclectic Infidel Mon, Dec 19, 2011 3:35:07pm

re: #32 SanFranciscoZionist

Do we have any reason to believe that Manning did anything he did because he was gay? Or, more importantly, that he would not have done the same thing if he were straight?

I reckon most people charged with...well...anything...are straight. Does this mean we should work to get rid of straight people from positions of power?

I just finished an online anthropology class that focused exclusively on LGBT culture across the globe. Fascinating information. Anyway, one issue that continually made its way into conversation is religion, specifically Christianity. In Western Civilization, it has wreaked untold havoc on the minds of people (resulting in unfair laws, prejudice, faulty logic, etc.) when it comes to folk who are not strictly 110% heterosexual and fail to uphold the established gender roles in such society. It's that dualistic thinking that mucks everything up.

Gus Mon, Dec 19, 2011 3:36:33pm

This could, in theory, actually help Manning if it forces him to cooperate with the government to become a witness against Assange. A plea bargain if you will. "Turn state's witness against Assange and we'll give you a lighter sentence."

Knowing the conspiracy theorists out there I'm pretty sure they're already chattering about how these chat logs were fabricated by the Feds.

reine.de.tout Mon, Dec 19, 2011 3:41:25pm

re: #43 eclectic infidel

I just finished an online anthropology class that focused exclusively on LGBT culture across the globe. Fascinating information. Anyway, one issue that continually made its way into conversation is religion, specifically Christianity. In Western Civilization, it has wreaked untold havoc on the minds of people (resulting in unfair laws, prejudice, faulty logic, etc.) when it comes to folk who are not strictly 110% heterosexual and fail to uphold the established gender roles in such society. It's that dualistic thinking that mucks everything up.

No denying that many flavors of Christianity have had a negative effect.

But the idea that "specifically, Christianity . . . has wreaked untold havoc on the minds of people..." - well, that's a bit more than I can take at the moment.

See you guys later.

Digital Display Mon, Dec 19, 2011 3:42:59pm

re: #42 reine.de.tout

Aw. Poor bastards indeed.
_{I am strangely unafflicted with any sympathy whatsoever}

I'm a poor bastard reine! So I'm on mute for a work Con Call.. My boss keeps calling on my Cell..I'm watching sportscenter and I'm feeding Winston homemade meatloaf from Tiffany's.
Here is the funny part..
A mouse made it in the house.. I have 2 different kinds of traps and cannot make them work.. They keep springing on me and spraying cheese around me.. I have been saying really bad words and am totally frustrated.. One time I got it set but thought it was going to snap I threw it across the room..
20 times and I can't set a mouse trap.. I am pathetic..I'm going to try a few more time then ask the housekeeper to do it...My ego is crushed...

SanFranciscoZionist Mon, Dec 19, 2011 3:45:33pm

re: #43 eclectic infidel

I just finished an online anthropology class that focused exclusively on LGBT culture across the globe. Fascinating information. Anyway, one issue that continually made its way into conversation is religion, specifically Christianity. In Western Civilization, it has wreaked untold havoc on the minds of people (resulting in unfair laws, prejudice, faulty logic, etc.) when it comes to folk who are not strictly 110% heterosexual and fail to uphold the established gender roles in such society. It's that dualistic thinking that mucks everything up.

I tend to wonder about that sort of line of thought, though. We assume that it's religion, but hostility toward people who step outside gender roles goes back farther than Christianity in Western cultures. So are we seeing the result of a specific religion, or are we seeing a cultural value being given a religious connotation to give it extra force?

Thinking about slavery--Americans did not own slaves because their faith told them to, they owned slaves because their economy told them to. Then they found Biblical justification and hammered it hard.

SanFranciscoZionist Mon, Dec 19, 2011 3:46:40pm

A North Korean man now living in California reacts to the news from home.

Mostly sane, most of the time. Mon, Dec 19, 2011 3:46:43pm

re: #46 HoosierHoops

That's it. I'm not hiring you to be the family cat.

wrenchwench Mon, Dec 19, 2011 3:47:51pm

Poor people are more likely to have bad teeth, and shoplift, and be addicted to street drugs, than rich people are.

Poverty should not be probable cause, but it is treated as such.

And people with bad teeth are more likely to be suspected of stuff.

I have some sympathy.

SanFranciscoZionist Mon, Dec 19, 2011 3:48:19pm

Someone posted this to Slacktivist in the comments, and now my head may explode:

The story of North Korea working through the New Jersey BBQ restaurant is interesting. It suggests that they're looking for a certain quality of people to work with, rather than people with a certain amount of power.

The BBQ guy was someone who was helping his Vietnam vet friends sort out issues with comrades who were MIA. Nothing glorious, but certainly something good. And he was open to working with the "bad guys" - he worked with the Vietnamese first, despite all the US angst about the Vietnamese Communists, and he was open minded when approached by the North Koreans. He didn't have anything to gain from the work, he was just helping friends. He wasn't even a vet helping other vets - it was pure friendship, not soldierly loyalty.

People in the US tend to want to see totalitarian dictatorships as pure evil - Nazis, Fascists, North Korea, etc.

But the thing is, these regimes work and survive by offering things that are genuinely attractive.

From my own family history, I know that while the Nazis are seen as being a group which excludes, they were, if you were part of the group they wanted "in", enthusiastically inclusive. One of my great-aunts was very active in the BDM, and rose in the regional leadership. She found it to be valuable that the Nazis were so interested in offering positive opportunities and experiences to girls. My grandparents met at one of the Nuremberg rallies - it was an exciting time and place when a lot of young adults were gathered together, and there were parties and activities and all sorts of excitement and fun. They met, and liked each other, and got married, and six months later my father was born.

So the North Korean dictatorship finds it preferable to work through an ordinary US citizen, someone who works for their living, rather than through official diplomatic channels, with people who play political games for a living. That's interesting. It's suggestive about what they considered important and admirable.

It's also suggestive about how US diplomats and officials behave. Why would the North Koreans choose such indirect diplomacy? Are the routes of conventional diplomacy genuinely open to North Korean interests? Did the North Koreans choose this route for diplomacy because they're strange? Or because they found that the US was not open to conventional diplomatic negotiation?

Having a "zero-tolerance" policy for communist dictatorships means that the US has closed the door to any kind of effective interaction. It's another example of the US's odd approach to diplomacy that I mentioned in a previous thread -- "Give me everything I want, and then I'll negotiate with you." So if any government the US has targeted for "zero-tolerance" wants to actually engage in diplomacy, then someone running a BBQ restaurant may be a better conduit for diplomacy than actual diplomats.

sattv4u2 Mon, Dec 19, 2011 3:53:12pm

re: #27 BigPapa

Japanese Binocular Soccer

Those must be some tiny balls!

Digital Display Mon, Dec 19, 2011 3:53:53pm

re: #49 EmmmieG

That's it. I'm not hiring you to be the family cat.

I can't believe a mouse trap is so freaking sensitive..I can't make it work..And I'm freaked out about failing 20 times.. The trap snaps and flies away and the cheese goes across the living room...I have said words tonight that I haven't said since I worked for the Dept. of the Navy..
I'll kill you mouse.. I'll kill you...After somebody trains me to set a trap..Effen effen effen..

wrenchwench Mon, Dec 19, 2011 3:54:28pm

re: #51 SanFranciscoZionist

Someone posted this to Slacktivist in the comments, and now my head may explode:

The story of North Korea working through the New Jersey BBQ restaurant is interesting. It suggests that they're looking for a certain quality of people to work with, rather than people with a certain amount of power.

The BBQ guy was someone who was helping his Vietnam vet friends sort out issues with comrades who were MIA. Nothing glorious, but certainly something good. And he was open to working with the "bad guys" - he worked with the Vietnamese first, despite all the US angst about the Vietnamese Communists, and he was open minded when approached by the North Koreans. He didn't have anything to gain from the work, he was just helping friends. He wasn't even a vet helping other vets - it was pure friendship, not soldierly loyalty.

People in the US tend to want to see totalitarian dictatorships as pure evil - Nazis, Fascists, North Korea, etc.

But the thing is, these regimes work and survive by offering things that are genuinely attractive.

From my own family history, I know that while the Nazis are seen as being a group which excludes, they were, if you were part of the group they wanted "in", enthusiastically inclusive. One of my great-aunts was very active in the BDM, and rose in the regional leadership. She found it to be valuable that the Nazis were so interested in offering positive opportunities and experiences to girls. My grandparents met at one of the Nuremberg rallies - it was an exciting time and place when a lot of young adults were gathered together, and there were parties and activities and all sorts of excitement and fun. They met, and liked each other, and got married, and six months later my father was born.

So the North Korean dictatorship finds it preferable to work through an ordinary US citizen, someone who works for their living, rather than through official diplomatic channels, with people who play political games for a living. That's interesting. It's suggestive about what they considered important and admirable.

It's also suggestive about how US diplomats and officials behave. Why would the North Koreans choose such indirect diplomacy? Are the routes of conventional diplomacy genuinely open to North Korean interests? Did the North Koreans choose this route for diplomacy because they're strange? Or because they found that the US was not open to conventional diplomatic negotiation?

Having a "zero-tolerance" policy for communist dictatorships means that the US has closed the door to any kind of effective interaction. It's another example of the US's odd approach to diplomacy that I mentioned in a previous thread -- "Give me everything I want, and then I'll negotiate with you." So if any government the US has targeted for "zero-tolerance" wants to actually engage in diplomacy, then someone running a BBQ restaurant may be a better conduit for diplomacy than actual diplomats.

It's called appeasement. It's the opposite of standing for what's right. It is a common form of diplomacy, and it is sometimes effective, depending on what the goal is. But it's still comprising with evil.

Vicious Babushka Mon, Dec 19, 2011 3:56:25pm

re: #53 HoosierHoops

I can't believe a mouse trap is so freaking sensitive..I can't make it work..And I'm freaked out about failing 20 times.. The trap snaps and flies away and the cheese goes across the living room...I have said words tonight that I haven't said since I worked for the Dept. of the Navy..
I'll kill you mouse.. I'll kill you...After somebody trains me to set a trap..Effen effen effen..

Don't use cheese, use peanut butter. It's a myth that mice are attracted by cheese. I think it was started by a cartoon show.

Obdicut Mon, Dec 19, 2011 3:57:11pm

re: #43 eclectic infidel

I'm not sure how you can blame Christianity in particular for that, since the same thing shows up in a raft of other religions and cultures as well.

sattv4u2 Mon, Dec 19, 2011 3:57:24pm

re: #50 wrenchwench

Poor people are more likely to have bad teeth, and shoplift, and be addicted to street drugs, than rich people are.

Poverty should not be probable cause, but it is treated as such.

And people with bad teeth are more likely to be suspected of stuff.

I have some sympathy.

I have some,, but not much

Want a chance at better teeth? DON'T drink a liter of coke for breakfast, two liters at lunch, and another at dinner!. I see people all the time at zero dark thirty in the morning getting a "Big Gulp" from 7 Eleven to wash down their 3 glazed donuts

SanFranciscoZionist Mon, Dec 19, 2011 3:57:58pm

I'm thinking also about hostility toward homosexuality in, say, ancient Rome. We're used to thinking of the Romans as being really relaxed about sexuality, but there was enormous scorn and hostility for free men who stepped outside their acceptable gender and sexual roles.

Given that this existed before Christianity, in a culture with such an influence on our own, it's hard for me to say that religion is all that underlies our admittedly cockamamie notions about sex and gender.

Gus Mon, Dec 19, 2011 3:59:58pm

re: #51 SanFranciscoZionist

Yes. The old "Nazis weren't that bad" argument. He must have also forgotten how North Korea recently shelled Yeonpyeong Island killing 5.

He also seems to have forgotten about the sinking of the ROKS Cheonan killing close to 50. The diplomacy at play here goes far beyond "personal feelings" about how we should interact with one another.

Another thing. While the North Koreans have been rather belligerent in the years after the cessation of hostilities between the north and the south I certainly wouldn't put them in the same league as the 3rd Reich.

William of Orange Mon, Dec 19, 2011 4:01:14pm

That's not looking good for Assange...

wrenchwench Mon, Dec 19, 2011 4:01:56pm

re: #57 sattv4u2

I have some,, but not much

Want a chance at better teeth? DON'T drink a liter of coke for breakfast, two liters at lunch, and another at dinner!. I see people all the time at zero dark thirty in the morning getting a "Big Gulp" from 7 Eleven to wash down their 3 glazed donuts

Stupidity should not be probable cause either.

I don't think bad teeth should be used as profiling data. It discriminates against the poor. Rich people can drink all the Big Gulps they want and still have good-looking teeth.

SanFranciscoZionist Mon, Dec 19, 2011 4:02:05pm

re: #59 Gus 802

Yes. The old "Nazis weren't that bad" argument. He must have also forgotten how North Korea recently shelled Yeonpyeong Island killing 5.

He also seems to have forgotten about the sinking of the ROKS Cheonan killing close to 50. The diplomacy at play here goes far beyond "personal feelings" about how we should interact with one another.

Another thing. While the North Koreans have been rather belligerent in the years after the cessation of hostilities between the north and the south I certainly wouldn't put them in the same league as the 3rd Reich.

Different sort of evil, one that's most directed inward.

I don't know. That whole thing just blew my mind. I've been seeing a few of these, where someone who really doesn't know shit about North Korea starts one of these vague, rambly, 'Well, all YOU know about them is what they print in the papers, and how do we know, and maybe they have different values from us.'

This one adding "And also, fascists create really fun youth leagues!" did not help.

sattv4u2 Mon, Dec 19, 2011 4:03:04pm

re: #61 wrenchwench

Stupidity should not be probable cause either.

I don't think bad teeth should be used as profiling data. It discriminates against the poor. Rich people can drink all the Big Gulps they want and still have good-looking teeth.

100% agree

BishopX Mon, Dec 19, 2011 4:04:32pm

re: #55 Alouette

Peanut butter and bird seed works wonders. Also get the mouse traps with the expanded trigger plates (basically a plastic square that the arm hooks into) because it makes it harder for the mice to eat the peanut butter off the trigger without setting it off.

Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Mon, Dec 19, 2011 4:06:05pm

re: #47 SanFranciscoZionist

I tend to wonder about that sort of line of thought, though. We assume that it's religion, but hostility toward people who step outside gender roles goes back farther than Christianity in Western cultures. So are we seeing the result of a specific religion, or are we seeing a cultural value being given a religious connotation to give it extra force?

Both. "Naturally occurring" homophobia (cf. USSR) is both reinforced and supplemented by religion. Yet if n.o.h.'s capacity is diminished for some reason, conservative religion will serve as a crutch. So conservative religion is still a negative factor.

Gus Mon, Dec 19, 2011 4:06:16pm

re: #62 SanFranciscoZionist

Different sort of evil, one that's most directed inward.

I don't know. That whole thing just blew my mind. I've been seeing a few of these, where someone who really doesn't know shit about North Korea starts one of these vague, rambly, 'Well, all YOU know about them is what they print in the papers, and how do we know, and maybe they have different values from us.'

This one adding "And also, fascists create really fun youth leagues!" did not help.

Which is what I was thinking while looking at the image of the masses sobbing and many looking like emotional wrecks in the image from Daylife. Outside of the internal tyranny here and oppression and more towards an emotionally tyranny they've engineered with their own population. There's a bizarre emotional uniformity at play here in the reaction to his death. I've never seen such a reaction even within the former Soviet Union.

Mostly sane, most of the time. Mon, Dec 19, 2011 4:07:02pm

re: #66 Gus 802

Everyone who didn't like him is dead.

Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Mon, Dec 19, 2011 4:07:42pm

re: #51 SanFranciscoZionist

> But the thing is, these regimes work and survive by offering things that are genuinely attractive.

Uh, no, they may begin that way.

Gus Mon, Dec 19, 2011 4:08:54pm

re: #67 EmmmieG

Everyone who didn't like him is dead.

Probably. Or perhaps if you don't look like you're saddened by his death off to the ed-education camp you go -- or worse. It's like something out of a 70s science fiction movie.

Mostly sane, most of the time. Mon, Dec 19, 2011 4:09:32pm

re: #69 Gus 802

Probably. Or perhaps if you don't look like you're saddened by his death off to the ed-education camp you go -- or worse. It's like something out of a 70s science fiction movie.

Everyone who didn't like him--or couldn't do a great job faking it--is dead.

Eclectic Infidel Mon, Dec 19, 2011 4:09:44pm

re: #47 SanFranciscoZionist

I tend to wonder about that sort of line of thought, though. We assume that it's religion, but hostility toward people who step outside gender roles goes back farther than Christianity in Western cultures. So are we seeing the result of a specific religion, or are we seeing a cultural value being given a religious connotation to give it extra force?

Thinking about slavery--Americans did not own slaves because their faith told them to, they owned slaves because their economy told them to. Then they found Biblical justification and hammered it hard.

Fair enough - a better wording to something of the effect of, "Christianity played a major role with discrimination but wasn't the only influence," perhaps. Though I would argue that slave-owning Christians may have owned slaves because they thought they were racially, and thus spiritually more advanced than the Africans.

Also, I think that religion is intimately tied to culture - but that yes, Christianity was the undercurrent that drove the stereotypes forward.

Digital Display Mon, Dec 19, 2011 4:10:00pm

re: #64 BishopX

Peanut butter and bird seed works wonders. Also get the mouse traps with the expanded trigger plates (basically a plastic square that the arm hooks into) because it makes it harder for the mice to eat the peanut butter off the trigger without setting it off.

What is the secret? I set the mouse trap and then Boom it goes off flying through the air..The Cheese goes everywhere.. 20 dang times.. I'll admit after the first 5 failures I'm shaking holding the trap...If it wasn't so funny...( It's not funny ) I think I'm done...I've been broken by a mouse trap and I'll need to explain to my housekeeper why there is cheese stuck to the ceiling..

Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Mon, Dec 19, 2011 4:10:34pm

re: #69 Gus 802

Probably. Or perhaps if you don't look like you're saddened by his death off to the ed-education camp you go -- or worse. It's like something out of a 70s science fiction movie.

That's prolly what I was reminded of when watching the creepy clip you posted yesterday - a bad movie.

Gus Mon, Dec 19, 2011 4:11:05pm

re: #70 EmmmieG

Everyone who didn't like him--or couldn't do a great job faking it--is dead.

Zombie nation. Stockholm syndrome at play as well.

Eclectic Infidel Mon, Dec 19, 2011 4:11:33pm

re: #56 Obdicut

I'm not sure how you can blame Christianity in particular for that, since the same thing shows up in a raft of other religions and cultures as well.

Well of course other cultures entertain their own brand of anti-gay prejudice, but specifically I referred to Western culture ( and perhaps should have more specifically mentioned the U.S., in retrospect now).

Vicious Babushka Mon, Dec 19, 2011 4:11:52pm

re: #72 HoosierHoops

What is the secret? I set the mouse trap and then Boom it goes off flying through the air..The Cheese goes everywhere.. 20 dang times.. I'll admit after the first 5 failures I'm shaking holding the trap...If it wasn't so funny...( It's not funny ) I think I'm done...I've been broken by a mouse trap and I'll need to explain to my housekeeper why there is cheese stuck to the ceiling..

The secret is don't use cheese, use peanut butter.

Varek Raith Mon, Dec 19, 2011 4:13:29pm

re: #72 HoosierHoops

What is the secret? I set the mouse trap and then Boom it goes off flying through the air..The Cheese goes everywhere.. 20 dang times.. I'll admit after the first 5 failures I'm shaking holding the trap...If it wasn't so funny...( It's not funny ) I think I'm done...I've been broken by a mouse trap and I'll need to explain to my housekeeper why there is cheese stuck to the ceiling..

Sometimes you must retreat from a lost cause.

SanFranciscoZionist Mon, Dec 19, 2011 4:14:01pm

re: #65 Sergey Romanov

Both. "Naturally occurring" homophobia (cf. USSR) is both reinforced and supplemented by religion. Yet if n.o.h.'s capacity is diminished for some reason, conservative religion will serve as a crutch. So conservative religion is still a negative factor.

Primarily, though, religion will drift with culture, which is why more and more modern Christian denominations have an accepting outlook on LGBT. Conservative religion also demands conservative culture. (Ie, "Homosexuality is bad" is closely linked to "We want to go back to the 50s, when everyone agreed with that, even the atheists.")

Mostly sane, most of the time. Mon, Dec 19, 2011 4:14:09pm

re: #76 Alouette

The secret is don't use cheese, use peanut butter.

Because cleaning peanut butter off the ceiling is a lot more fun.

Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Mon, Dec 19, 2011 4:14:56pm

re: #78 SanFranciscoZionist

Primarily, though, religion will drift with culture, which is why more and more modern Christian denominations have an accepting outlook on LGBT. Conservative religion also demands conservative culture. (Ie, "Homosexuality is bad" is closely linked to "We want to go back to the 50s, when everyone agreed with that, even the atheists.")

Yes, it will, but while it is drifting it will still cause grief.

BishopX Mon, Dec 19, 2011 4:19:45pm

re: #72 HoosierHoops

As it was explained to me by a kind exterminator....

1) small amounts of bait. It really just needs the smell, too much bait can also set off the trap (this might be your problem). Bait the trap before you set it.

2)when you set the trap hold the back edge (the side away from the bait), hold the arm (the thing that kills the mouse) down and lay the lever over it.

3) Tilt the trigger up at a 45 degree angle (I find it helpful to tilt the whole mousetrap so the trigger isn't pointing up.

4) slip the bar under the trigger

5) SLOWLY let the arm up until the bar is holding it in place. This doesn't always work the first time, but it will eventually. Just keep your finger on the back half of the trap so you don't get hurt.

6) gently place the trap down with the bait facing the wall in an area you know mice use. Watch for vibrations (refrigerator, washing machine, heavy foot traffic)

7) make sure winston can't get to it. Dogs love peanut butter too.

Some traps are also not good. Quality control isn't so good on things that 99 cents for a pair. If you can't make a trap work, use another one.

SanFranciscoZionist Mon, Dec 19, 2011 4:19:55pm

re: #71 eclectic infidel

Fair enough - a better wording to something of the effect of, "Christianity played a major role with discrimination but wasn't the only influence," perhaps. Though I would argue that slave-owning Christians may have owned slaves because they thought they were racially, and thus spiritually more advanced than the Africans.

Also, I think that religion is intimately tied to culture - but that yes, Christianity was the undercurrent that drove the stereotypes forward.

I honestly think it's more deeply tangled than that. Christianity doesn't exist separately from Christendom. Religion is interpreted in the light of the culture that practices it.

Christianity was able to make a leap away from legalism that, for example, discarded kashrut. The most literalist of fundamentalists will eat a ham sandwich, and yet point to homosexuality as Biblically banned*. I believe that's because Christianity grafted successively onto several cultures that already stigmatized homosexuality. Rather than ham.

*There are a few fundamentalist literalists who keep a Biblical form of kashrut, but they are very very rare.

Digital Display Mon, Dec 19, 2011 4:21:36pm

re: #76 Alouette

The secret is don't use cheese, use peanut butter.

Thank you Sister..But you know what..I'm staffing this out to my new housekeeper..She is awesome..She has been a member of the Moose for years and is completely trusted by everybody..I got really lucky getting introduced to her..
I work a lot and Winston needs attention also...My buddy is pissing me off..65 dollar Oatmeal baths once a month? Who does he think he is?
//

Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Mon, Dec 19, 2011 4:22:51pm

re: #82 SanFranciscoZionist

Small addition - NT also scorns homosexuality, so that's not in itself inconsistent. Many, however, will cite Torah. On the other hand, some of them will make a distinction between moral and ritual commandments, although it looks more like an apologetic device.

wrenchwench Mon, Dec 19, 2011 4:23:09pm

re: #81 BishopX

You seem to be one of those wide-ranging fonts of knowledge.

SanFranciscoZionist Mon, Dec 19, 2011 4:24:23pm

re: #84 Sergey Romanov

Small addition - NT also scorns homosexuality, so that's not in itself inconsistent. Many, however, will cite Torah. On the other hand, some of them will make a distinction between moral and ritual commandments, although it looks more like an apologetic device.

Roman-influenced writers of the NT, though. It doesn't come from nowhere, nor does it reach an audience that's completely confused by what the problem is.

BishopX Mon, Dec 19, 2011 4:25:14pm

re: #85 wrenchwench

You seem to be one of those wide-ranging fonts of useless knowledge.

fixed that you you :)

I've got a great head for factoids, not so much for people or their names.

wrenchwench Mon, Dec 19, 2011 4:32:45pm

re: #87 BishopX

fixed that you you :)

I've got a great head for factoids, not so much for people or their names.

There's only one of you, and there are so many of them.

I remember customers bikes better than I remember the customers. They accept this "eccentricity", since I spend more time with their bikes.

Digital Display Mon, Dec 19, 2011 4:50:17pm

My life sure has taken some twists..After being hired by the DOD after college and training as a fully Qualified Nuclear worker for 3 years and the Navy paying for 3 more years to work in Nuclear Subs..I was sent to work in Bld 690 at MINSY.. The most bad ass nuke Joint in the world...I had to prove myself to all the old timers..
The path to my future was that when I was at Bld 690..Nobody and I mean nobody knew how to work on a Windows computer..These folks were on there way out and didn't have a clue about email and printers...These great Americans could repair a 688 Nuke Sub no problem and send her off to sea..But didn't know Windows.. I pretty much took over playing with all the installed computers and helping folks out..
It became my career and I work IT for a Corporation.. We taxpayers paid a shitload of money to keep me on my path..I think it was a worthwhile investment in America..I vote we invest in America and it's citizens..
Plus..I was laid off..I loved MINSY and would have retired there.. It was my first dream dashed away..

sattv4u2 Mon, Dec 19, 2011 4:51:25pm

re: #89 HoosierHoops

And after all that, you can't even set a mouse trap!!

Darth Vader Gargoyle Mon, Dec 19, 2011 4:52:14pm

re: #90 sattv4u2

And after all that, you can't even set a mouse trap!!

If it was nuclear powered he'd have done a better job.

Digital Display Mon, Dec 19, 2011 4:53:20pm

re: #90 sattv4u2

And after all that, you can't even set a mouse trap!!

Can you believe it? It's pissing me off..

Vicious Babushka Mon, Dec 19, 2011 4:54:17pm

re: #89 HoosierHoops

I believe in Miracles, You sexy thing!

Youtube Video

sattv4u2 Mon, Dec 19, 2011 4:54:53pm

re: #92 HoosierHoops

Can you believe it? It's pissing me off..

Buy a cat
Then, to get rid of the cat, get a dog
Then, to get rid of the dog, get a ,,,,,,

BishopX Mon, Dec 19, 2011 4:55:03pm

re: #90 sattv4u2

Intercontinental Ballistic Rat Trap would be a great band name.

Digital Display Mon, Dec 19, 2011 4:58:44pm

re: #94 sattv4u2

Buy a cat
Then, to get rid of the cat, get a dog
Then, to get rid of the dog, get a ,,,

Get back to work..The ESPN feed blew up....

allegro Mon, Dec 19, 2011 4:59:13pm

re: #92 HoosierHoops

Can you believe it? It's pissing me off..

You're probably setting the trap off yourself with the bait as someone else suggested, You don't need bait at all. Mice always travel the same route against a solid wall or object that they keep in contact with their guard hairs. Find the little sucker's trail (usually where you spotted him or look for droppings), set the snappy part of the trap towards the wall and place a box or something on the other side of the trap to funnel the mouse over it. Turn off the lights and wait for the dastardly sound of mus musculus murder.

sattv4u2 Mon, Dec 19, 2011 5:01:13pm

re: #96 HoosierHoops

Get back to work..The ESPN feed blew up...

Blame RemeberTonyC for that!!

_RememberTonyC Mon, Dec 19, 2011 5:02:30pm

re: #98 sattv4u2

Blame RemeberTonyC for that!!

That is just plain wrong ...

100

sattv4u2 Mon, Dec 19, 2011 5:04:40pm

re: #99 _RememberTonyC

That is just plain wrong ...

hehehe,,,
Your guys handle the pre-game/ studio stuff

We take over when the real work needs to be done!

101

Digital Display Mon, Dec 19, 2011 5:06:32pm

re: #100 sattv4u2

re: #99 _RememberTonyC

The feed has been really shaky.. I wonder if it's because of storms here

102

reine.de.tout Mon, Dec 19, 2011 5:07:00pm

re: #92 HoosierHoops

Can you believe it? It's pissing me off..

The Roi just uses a pellet gun.

103

_RememberTonyC Mon, Dec 19, 2011 5:07:37pm

re: #100 sattv4u2

hehehe,,,
Your guys handle the pre-game/ studio stuff

We take over when the real work needs to be done!

You are lucky I am in a great mood tonight!

104

engineer cat Mon, Dec 19, 2011 5:08:23pm

re: #82 SanFranciscoZionist

I honestly think it's more deeply tangled than that. Christianity doesn't exist separately from Christendom. Religion is interpreted in the light of the culture that practices it.

Christianity was able to make a leap away from legalism that, for example, discarded kashrut. The most literalist of fundamentalists will eat a ham sandwich, and yet point to homosexuality as Biblically banned*. I believe that's because Christianity grafted successively onto several cultures that already stigmatized homosexuality. Rather than ham.

*There are a few fundamentalist literalists who keep a Biblical form of kashrut, but they are very very rare.

i've met some evangelicals who will admit that if you believe the new covenant has superseded the old, you should stick to the new testament only to justify christian practice, but they are few and far between. the majority appear to have never considered that they are picking and choosing which old testament commandments to believe, apparently at will.

so i put the question to them: from who or where do you derive the authority to choose which old testament commandments to insist on and which to ignore, and how do you go about deciding which ones are G-d's law and which are null and void?

105

sattv4u2 Mon, Dec 19, 2011 5:09:19pm

re: #102 reine.de.tout

The Roi just uses a pellet gun.

kinky!

106

_RememberTonyC Mon, Dec 19, 2011 5:09:28pm

re: #101 HoosierHoops

re: #99 _RememberTonyC

The feed has been really shaky.. I wonder if it's because of storms here

I think Sat has been moving the satellite dish to watch his favorite South Asian pr0n ... Tonight's film is "Mindy does Rawalpindi."

107

Digital Display Mon, Dec 19, 2011 5:09:45pm

re: #103 _RememberTonyC

You are lucky I am in a great mood tonight!

What about the Pacers? My lawd we are one trade away from monsterous!

108

sattv4u2 Mon, Dec 19, 2011 5:10:50pm

re: #107 HoosierHoops

What about the Pacers? My lawd we are one trade away from monsterous!

Yeah ,, if that "one move" was Bill Russell in his prime!!!

109

Digital Display Mon, Dec 19, 2011 5:12:31pm

re: #108 sattv4u2

Yeah ,, if that "one move" was Bill Russell in his prime!!!

Seriously The Pacers are up and coming..And I love the Thunder...
But the Pacers got West and we have lots of cap space..

110

_RememberTonyC Mon, Dec 19, 2011 5:13:10pm

re: #107 HoosierHoops

What about the Pacers? My lawd we are one trade away from monsterous!

I like your team. Roy Hibbert, Danny Granger, and David West are a nice trio. But today I scored 4 tickets to the Celtics/Knicks on Christmas Day at Madison Square Garden ... How psyched are me and my kids? VERY.

111

Digital Display Mon, Dec 19, 2011 5:14:11pm

re: #110 _RememberTonyC

I like your team. Roy Hibbert, Danny Granger, and David West are a nice trio. But today I scored 4 tickets to the Celtics/Knicks on Christmas Day at Madison Square Garden ... How psyched are me and my kids? VERY.

That is AWESOME!

112

engineer cat Mon, Dec 19, 2011 5:16:14pm

Coming up: House Republican leaders discuss payroll tax extension legislation

but not just yet...

113

Four More Beers Mon, Dec 19, 2011 5:16:54pm

re: #109 HoosierHoops

Seriously The Pacers are up and coming..And I love the Thunder...
But the Pacers got West and we have lots of cap space..

"Get ya some of this, bitches!"

Image: durant.jpg

114

_RememberTonyC Mon, Dec 19, 2011 5:17:56pm

re: #111 HoosierHoops

That is AWESOME!

Both kids are home from college and LOVE the C's ... Plus it is a noon game,so we can make it a full day in NY, which makes wifey very happy too!

115

engineer cat Mon, Dec 19, 2011 5:19:26pm

re: #112 engineer dog

Coming up: House Republican leaders discuss payroll tax extension legislation

but not just yet...

news conference now underway...

116

_RememberTonyC Mon, Dec 19, 2011 5:22:39pm

re: #113 Kid A

"Get ya some of this, bitches!"

Image: durant.jpg

Have you seen Kendrick Perkins lately? He lost so much weight that he looks like Durant now. But my pick is Thunder vs Bulls in the Finals with OKC winning it all.

117

Four More Beers Mon, Dec 19, 2011 5:28:59pm

re: #116 _RememberTonyC

Have you seen Kendrick Perkins lately? He lost so much weight that he looks like Durant now. But my pick is Thunder vs Bulls in the Finals with OKC winning it all.

That would be one hell of a NBA Final. Two of my favorite players going after it (KD & Rose). I'm a lifelong Rockets fan, but hey, we're gonna suck, and I've been a Durant fan since his one year at Texas.

118

Digital Display Mon, Dec 19, 2011 5:29:56pm

re: #116 _RememberTonyC

Have you seen Kendrick Perkins lately? He lost so much weight that he looks like Durant now. But my pick is Thunder vs Bulls in the Finals with OKC winning it all.

There was a power outage at Candlestick..Still out
Explains the feed issue

119

_RememberTonyC Mon, Dec 19, 2011 5:30:56pm

re: #117 Kid A

That would be one hell of a NBA Final. Two of my favorite players going after it (KD & Rose). I'm a lifelong Rockets fan, but hey, we're gonna suck, and I've been a Durant fan since his one year at Texas.

Just as long as it isn't the Heat ... Right?

120

_RememberTonyC Mon, Dec 19, 2011 5:31:44pm

re: #118 HoosierHoops

There was a power outage at Candlestick..Still out
Explains the feed issue

No backup generators? Wow.

121

sattv4u2 Mon, Dec 19, 2011 5:33:19pm

re: #120 _RememberTonyC

whatdidyoudo?

122

Digital Display Mon, Dec 19, 2011 5:34:35pm

re: #121 sattv4u2

whatdidyoudo?

this is amazing

123

_RememberTonyC Mon, Dec 19, 2011 5:34:55pm

re: #121 sattv4u2

whatdidyoudo?

Damn ... This is not good ...

124

_RememberTonyC Mon, Dec 19, 2011 5:37:08pm

Looks like the lights are coming back on

125

sattv4u2 Mon, Dec 19, 2011 5:40:16pm

re: #124 _RememberTonyC

Looks like the lights are coming back on

As old as that place is, their back up generators probably take 10-15 minutes to kick in enough to take over all power
Until it does, they have a string of batteries that take care of aux and emergency lighting

Newer facilities have UPS systems (Uninterpretable Power Systems) that switch from shore (main) power to batteries to generators without you even knowing it

126

OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin Mon, Dec 19, 2011 6:10:49pm

Why am I not surprised.

127

OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin Mon, Dec 19, 2011 6:15:11pm

re: #45 reine.de.tout

No denying that many flavors of Christianity have had a negative effect.

But the idea that "specifically, Christianity . . . has wreaked untold havoc on the minds of people..." - well, that's a bit more than I can take at the moment.

What he said is a fact. Western Chrisitianity has been the vehicle for destruction of not only non-conformist non-Christians, but other Christians as well.

128

RogueOne Tue, Dec 20, 2011 2:58:21am

re: #32 SanFranciscoZionist

Do we have any reason to believe that Manning did anything he did because he was gay? Or, more importantly, that he would not have done the same thing if he were straight?

I reckon most people charged with...well...anything...are straight. Does this mean we should work to get rid of straight people from positions of power?

The gender-identity issue is part of his defense:

[Link: www.washingtonblade.com...]

Attorneys representing Pfc. Bradley Manning, a 24-year-old Army private previously identified as gay, startled observers at a pre-court martial hearing on Saturday by saying allegations that Manning leaked classified U.S. intelligence information could be linked to a personal struggle over his gender identity.
....
According to Reuters News Service, Manning’s attorney, David Coombs, and Manning’s brigade chief, Captain Steven Lim, told the Dec. 17 Article 32 hearing that Manning informed an Army intelligence supervisor by email in April 2010 that he was suffering from gender identity disorder.

Lim testified at the hearing that Manning disclosed in his email that the disorder was “affecting his life, work and ability to think,” Reuters reported. Lim also testified that Manning’s email included a photo of Manning dressed as a woman.

Coombs stated at the hearing that Manning’s self disclosure that he was struggling over his gender identity was a sign that he was emotionally unstable and may not have been in a position to handle highly classified documents, Reuters reported.

As part of the clearance process they look for anything (and I do mean anything) that could be used to blackmail the applicant. I wonder if they knew at that point he was gay. They wouldn't have asked as part of his enlistment but I would think it would come up during the clearance investigation. If they knew he was gay and that he had kept that quiet he shouldn't have been given a clearance.

Spy Mode Auto

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