Todd Rundgren and Daryl Hall: The Want Of A Nail

The devil’s in the details
Music • Views: 24,250
Youtube Video

I’ve been wrong, I had plans so big
But the Devil’s in the details, I left out one thing
No one to love me, no one to love me
No one to love me, no one to love

Hey, hey, for the want of a nail, the world was lost
For the want of a nail, the world was lost, oh yeah
For the want of a nail, the world was lost
For the want of a nail, the world was lost

For the want of a nail, shoe was lost
For the want of a shoe, a horse was lost
For the want of a horse, the rider was lost
For the want of a rider, message was lost

For the want of a nail, the world was lost
For the want of a nail, the world was lost
For the want of a nail, the world was lost
For the want of a nail, the world was lost

Yeah, for the want of a rider, the message was lost
For the want of a message, the battle was lost
For the want of a battle, the war was lost
For the want of a war, the kingdom was lost

For the want of a nail, the world was lost
Yeah, for the want of a nail, the world was lost
For the want of a nail, the world was lost
For the want of a nail, the world was lost

I’ve been wrong, I had plans so big
But the Devil’s in the details, I left out one thing
No one to love me, no, no, no one to love me
No one to love me, yes, I’ve no one to love

Oh yeah, you’re askin’ what’s all this talk about, horses and war?
Put yourself in the place of the man at the forge
And day after day you live a life without love
‘Til the morning, you can’t take it anymore and you don’t get up

Multiply it a billion times, spread it all ‘round the world
Put the curse of loneliness on every boy and every girl
Until everybody’s kicking, everybody’s scratching
Everything seems to fail and it was all for the want of a nail

(For the want of a nail)
Tell me what else could the answer be?
(For the want of a nail)
(For the want of a nail)
Don’t hold back now
(For the want of a nail)

For the want of a nail, the world was lost
For the want of a nail, the world was lost
For the want of a nail, the world was lost
For the want of a nail, the world was lost

Jump to bottom

344 comments
1 SteveMcG  Mon, Dec 19, 2011 8:21:58pm

I never really appreciated Daryl Hall's singing until I heard the "Live from Daryl's House" programs.

2 Alexzander  Mon, Dec 19, 2011 8:23:29pm

I've never heard of Todd Rundgren or Daryl Hall. Whats the reverse of "get off my lawn?"

3 Alexzander  Mon, Dec 19, 2011 8:23:50pm

PS I suspect Charles posted this one after a good swig of whisky.
Or am I projecting?

4 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Mon, Dec 19, 2011 8:24:49pm

re: #2 Alexzander

I've never heard of Todd Rundgren or Daryl Hall. Whats the reverse of "get off my lawn?"

You've never heard of Daryl Hall? Where were you during the 80's?

Oh. Right. Sorry about that.

You can look him up on youtube, but be prepared for skinny ties and big hair.

5 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Dec 19, 2011 8:25:02pm

re: #2 Alexzander

I've never heard of Todd Rundgren or Daryl Hall. Whats the reverse of "get off my lawn?"

"Come Onna My House"?

6 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Dec 19, 2011 8:25:02pm

I can't see Tom "T-Bone" Wolk without getting the sads.

However, this whole "From Daryl's House" recording is excellent.

7 Alexzander  Mon, Dec 19, 2011 8:26:04pm

re: #4 EmmmieG

You've never heard of Daryl Hall? Where were you during the 80's?

Oh. Right. Sorry about that.

You can look him up on youtube, but be prepared for skinny ties and big hair.

Born in England - 1985.
I wear big hair and skinny ties right here in 2011.

8 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Dec 19, 2011 8:27:25pm

re: #2 Alexzander

I've never heard of Todd Rundgren or Daryl Hall. Whats the reverse of "get off my lawn?"

"THEY DON'T UNDERSTAND ME! WAAAAH!"

Fuckin' whippersnapper.

9 Interesting Times in Benghazi  Mon, Dec 19, 2011 8:31:10pm

re: #2 Alexzander

I've never heard of Todd Rundgren or Daryl Hall. Whats the reverse of "get off my lawn?"

"Dude, I hadn't even been born..."

10 Four More Tears  Mon, Dec 19, 2011 8:34:16pm

I once threw a Pulp Fiction line out amongst some coworkers and no one got it. "I was, like, four when that came out!"

I wanted to cry.

11 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Mon, Dec 19, 2011 8:34:24pm

re: #7 Alexzander

Born in England - 1985.
I wear big hair and skinny ties right here in 2011.

Right. Being too small to reach the remote control to do more than chew on it is no excuse.

12 NJDhockeyfan  Mon, Dec 19, 2011 8:34:53pm

I love this music. From A Charlie Brown Christmas...

Youtube Video

I just watched it with my girls a little while ago. This cartoon never gets old.

13 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Mon, Dec 19, 2011 8:41:02pm

re: #10 JasonA

When I was outside taking pictures of trees felled by the high winds recently, the neighbor said to me "I'd be taking pictures too, but I don't have a phone".

14 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Dec 19, 2011 8:41:55pm

re: #12 NJDhockeyfan

Youtube Video
15 Randall Gross  Mon, Dec 19, 2011 8:43:08pm

Wow. Me like.

16 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Dec 19, 2011 8:45:08pm

Connie Willis used this thruout her two-part book, Blackout and All Clear.

Not the song, but the poem. Well used as part of the unfolding story.

Highly recommened (all Connie Willis --especially for short reading: Bellweather)

17 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Dec 19, 2011 8:51:35pm

re: #10 JasonA

I once threw a Pulp Fiction line out amongst some coworkers and no one got it. "I was, like, four when that came out!"

I wanted to cry.

I've had that happen to me, too. It makes you feel old.

18 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Dec 19, 2011 8:52:37pm

"get off my lawn?"

19 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Dec 19, 2011 8:53:11pm

re: #17 Dark_Falcon

I've had that happen to me, too. It makes you feel old.

With me, it was "Who's on First?"

I felt ancient.

20 NJDhockeyfan  Mon, Dec 19, 2011 9:04:18pm

This song is for Ben Roethlisberger...he's getting pretty beat up tonight...

Youtube Video
21 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Dec 19, 2011 9:10:11pm

Um, yeah.

Youtube Video
22 darthstar  Mon, Dec 19, 2011 9:10:37pm

Got my dad some whiskey stones...now to find him a decent single malt to go with them.

23 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Mon, Dec 19, 2011 9:11:54pm

re: #19 ggt

Don't worry. One day this newer generation will be met with blank stares whenever they reference Pokemon or whatever faddish thing we think is stupid and they think is super cool.

24 NJDhockeyfan  Mon, Dec 19, 2011 9:12:41pm

Santa debate heating up among Saugus firefighters, school district

A forty-year tradition in Saugus was almost broken Monday after the school superintendant told firefighters they would not be allowed to dress as Santa and deliver coloring books to children, the Saugus Fire Chief told FOX 25.

Ever since 1960, Saugus firefighters have dressed up every December as Santa and delivered coloring books to children at local elementary schools; however, Saugus School Superintendant Richard Langlois told the firefighters Monday morning that they would not be welcome in the classrooms.

Langlois told FOX 25 that because of the policies surrounding the separation of church and state in schools the firefighters can not dress as Santa, and that it is his job to enforce the rules.

However, shutting down the tradition had firefighters heated. In their opinion, Santa and coloring books are not religiously influenced and they should be allowed to deliver the items that had been donated.

After receiving several complaints, the superintendant agreed to allow the firefighters to visit the classrooms, but says the matter will be discussed with the school committee at their next scheduled meeting.

Fucking morons.

25 austin_blue  Mon, Dec 19, 2011 9:13:52pm

re: #22 darthstar

Got my dad some whiskey stones...now to find him a decent single malt to go with them.

What does he like? Light, dark, Islays, Highlands, or Speysides?

So many tasty malts, so little time...

26 darthstar  Mon, Dec 19, 2011 9:15:17pm

re: #24 NJDhockeyfan

Santa debate heating up among Saugus firefighters, school district

Fucking morons.

Fucking morons is right. Santa isn't a Xian tradition...he's a commercial one.

27 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Mon, Dec 19, 2011 9:15:20pm

re: #22 darthstar

"If the temperature doesn't stay below freezing, then the hard water starts to melt and your drink becomes all watery and doesn't taste good anymore."

Alcoholism: Ur doin it rong.

28 NJDhockeyfan  Mon, Dec 19, 2011 9:16:57pm

re: #26 darthstar

Fucking morons is right. Santa isn't a Xian tradition...he's a commercial one.

Why do they have a problem with the fire dept giving coloring books to children? I just don't get it.

29 darthstar  Mon, Dec 19, 2011 9:17:32pm

re: #28 NJDhockeyfan

Why do they have a problem with the fire dept giving coloring books to children? I just don't get it.

It'd be fine if they only came with white crayons.
//

30 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Mon, Dec 19, 2011 9:17:57pm

re: #24 NJDhockeyfan

Langlois told FOX 25 that because of the policies surrounding the separation of church and state in schools the firefighters can not dress as Santa, and that it is his job to enforce the rules.

Interesting. Where was I when Santa achieved deification?

31 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Mon, Dec 19, 2011 9:18:24pm

re: #26 darthstar

Fucking morons is right. Santa isn't a Xian tradition...he's a commercial one.

Santa Claus, the patron saint of capitalism.

Seriously, he's just Saint Nicholas, who was known for giving unselfishly, among other things.

32 austin_blue  Mon, Dec 19, 2011 9:18:48pm

re: #24 NJDhockeyfan

Santa debate heating up among Saugus firefighters, school district

Fucking morons.

True fact. The town of Grand Saline, Texas decided to remove "Santa" from all public schools because it was an anagram of "Satan". As was pointed by Esquire magazine, the town's name is an anagram of "Grand Anal Sex Site".

Fucking morons.

34 engineer cat  Mon, Dec 19, 2011 9:24:53pm

porter stansberry is now advertizing his website on teevee

he promotes a right wing fantasy of runaway inflation because of "big government policies" leading to economic collapse, anarchy, and martial law in order to sell.... gold and silver

he's been predicting the start of inflation and chaos sometime in the next six months for several years now

35 darthstar  Mon, Dec 19, 2011 9:25:01pm

re: #32 austin_blue

"Grand Anal Sex Site"? That's still not the same as Satan.//

36 NJDhockeyfan  Mon, Dec 19, 2011 9:25:44pm

re: #33 Varek Raith

New Hampshire GOP Lawmakers Propose ‘Warning: You Are About To Enter Massachusetts’ Border Signs
Rofl.
Morons.

Ha ha ha!

37 KronoGhazi  Mon, Dec 19, 2011 9:26:26pm

re: #22 darthstar

Got my dad some whiskey stones...now to find him a decent single malt to go with them.

Does he like sweet or smokey?

38 Varek Raith  Mon, Dec 19, 2011 9:26:35pm

I got some signs.

Warning, Entering Maryland
Beware of overzealous cops and slow drivers!
Expect to be pulled over.

39 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Mon, Dec 19, 2011 9:28:09pm

re: #31 EmmmieG

Although I must say, if these kids are coloring book age, they'd probably be just as stoked to see firefighters show up in their uniforms. I mean, firefighters are cool, right?

40 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Mon, Dec 19, 2011 9:28:34pm

re: #39 Slumbering Behemoth

Although I must say, if these kids are coloring book age, they'd probably be just as stoked to see firefighters show up in their uniforms. I mean, firefighters are cool, right?

Rock star cool.

41 austin_blue  Mon, Dec 19, 2011 9:32:18pm

re: #33 Varek Raith

New Hampshire GOP Lawmakers Propose ‘Warning: You Are About To Enter Massachusetts’ Border Signs
Rofl.
Morons.

Huh. Fancy that. Texas passed a very reasonable law during the 2009 session that required that drivers on the highway lane closest to the shoulder slow down 25 MPH below the posted speed limit when when Mr. Popo had pulled a car to the shoulder with his/her lights flashing. Too many drunks were running into the back of police cruisers and killing people.

Did they require that rental car drivers be informed of the State law when they rented cars? No. Has this pissed numerous humans off after getting tickets? Yes. Did they change the law during the 2011 session to include notification requirements?

Nope.

42 darthstar  Mon, Dec 19, 2011 9:32:30pm

re: #37 BigPapa

Does he like sweet or smokey?

He's getting old, so he's flexible. I could go with a smoky Highland or a fruity(like Glenmorangie) type scotch...I get to share it with him either way.

43 NJDhockeyfan  Mon, Dec 19, 2011 9:34:23pm

re: #39 Slumbering Behemoth

Although I must say, if these kids are coloring book age, they'd probably be just as stoked to see firefighters show up in their uniforms. I mean, firefighters are cool, right?

Everywhere but Saugus, Mass.

44 Varek Raith  Mon, Dec 19, 2011 9:35:58pm

I'm out.
Laters.

45 austin_blue  Mon, Dec 19, 2011 9:37:14pm

re: #42 darthstar

He's getting old, so he's flexible. I could go with a smoky Highland or a fruity(like Glenmorangie) type scotch...I get to share it with him either way.

Try an Aberlour Speyside, Around 45 bucks. Good booze.

[Link: www.google.com...]

46 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Mon, Dec 19, 2011 9:37:42pm

re: #43 NJDhockeyfan

Nah, I meant don't young kids of coloring book age still think firefighters are cool like they did when I was that age?

Like Emmmie wrote, I used to think they were "rock star cool" back when I was that age.

47 darthstar  Mon, Dec 19, 2011 9:38:08pm

re: #45 austin_blue

Try an Aberlour Speyside, Around 45 bucks. Good booze.

[Link: www.google.com...]

I've had it...nice recommendation...thanks.

48 NJDhockeyfan  Mon, Dec 19, 2011 9:39:06pm

re: #46 Slumbering Behemoth

Nah, I meant don't young kids of coloring book age still think firefighters are cool like they did when I was that age?

Like Emmmie wrote, I used to think they were "rock star cool" back when I was that age.

They still do. What kid doesn't want to be a firefighter?

49 darthstar  Mon, Dec 19, 2011 9:39:41pm

Watching "The Road to Perdition" right now...good flick. Tom Hanks does well in these dramatic roles.

50 KronoGhazi  Mon, Dec 19, 2011 9:39:49pm

re: #42 darthstar

He's getting old, so he's flexible. I could go with a smoky Highland or a fruity(like Glenmorangie) type scotch...I get to share it with him either way.

I am not an accomplished scotch man... yet. But I'm trying.

Oban was my first love. Butterscotchy, rich. Half way through that bottle I started to understand. Other 'sweet' styles light on smoke that I like are Balvenie (finished in a sherry barrel), Glenmorangie Nadurra.

For smoke, my go to is Lagavulin. Tastes like refined oak smoke with a touch of good leather. Ardberg is there too: if you want creosote smoke, the Laphroig hits the spot.

I really need to spend a week month in Scotland.

51 KronoGhazi  Mon, Dec 19, 2011 9:42:58pm

re: #45 austin_blue

Try an Aberlour Speyside, Around 45 bucks. Good booze.

[Link: www.google.com...]

Crap, another one I've never heard of I have to try now.

Darth, you need to hit Beltramos in Atherton. You practically hear angels sing when you enter.

52 NJDhockeyfan  Mon, Dec 19, 2011 9:45:33pm

Cuban Actress Blasts Actor Sean Penn as 'Communist A**-hole;' He Calls Her a 'Pig'

WASHINGTON -- An actress and former international beauty pageant queen had a heated run-in with actor Sean Penn at Los Angeles International Airport recently, in which she says he called her a pig and she responded by calling him a communist.

Heh.

53 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Mon, Dec 19, 2011 9:51:31pm

re: #48 NJDhockeyfan

They still do. What kid doesn't want to be a firefighter?

The more things change, the more they stay the same, eh?

54 NJDhockeyfan  Mon, Dec 19, 2011 9:51:32pm

New app challenges you to toss your iPhone off a building

For most of us, accidentally bumping a smartphone off a desk or countertop can really ruin a good day. Such an unfortunate event can lead to a cracked screen, busted buttons, and an expensive replacement cost. A new game for the iPhone challenges you to not only drop your phone, but to do so off of as tall a structure as you can find. It's called Free Fall High Score, and it is undoubtedly the riskiest mobile game that we've seen.

The game is exceedingly simple: just start recording your free fall attempt via the iPhone's video feature, toss your pricey smartphone off the tallest structure you can find, and have someone — preferably a group of friends equipped with a sheet or blanket of some kind — catch it before it hits the ground. The video can then be uploaded to a global leaderboard where your feat will be compared to other risk takers.Free Fall High Score debuted during Art Hack Weekend, an event which showcases unusual concepts and ideas, and its creators are likely not expecting many iPhone owners to take the game seriously.

I think I'll pass on this one.

55 Kragar  Mon, Dec 19, 2011 9:53:02pm

re: #54 NJDhockeyfan

New app challenges you to toss your iPhone off a building

I think I'll pass on this one.

Skydiver's iPhone 4 survives 13,500-foot fall

He wins.

56 darthstar  Mon, Dec 19, 2011 9:55:53pm

re: #55 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Skydiver's iPhone 4 survives 13,500-foot fall

He wins.

"Neither the skydiver in question nor the iPhone is pictured." Well, duh...you've got a picture of a parasailer, not a skydiver.

57 austin_blue  Mon, Dec 19, 2011 9:56:56pm

Adios. Sweet scaly dreams, my friends.

58 Kragar  Mon, Dec 19, 2011 9:57:07pm

re: #56 darthstar

"Neither the skydiver in question nor the iPhone is pictured." Well, duh...you've got a picture of a parasailer, not a skydiver.

Thats the skydiver's safety line.

Wait a sec...

59 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Dec 19, 2011 9:57:19pm

re: #52 NJDhockeyfan

Cuban Actress Blasts Actor Sean Penn as 'Communist A**-hole;' He Calls Her a 'Pig'

Heh.

I'm on her side. That lipstick shade is nice.

60 darthstar  Mon, Dec 19, 2011 9:59:23pm

Okay...now I understand what all the fuss is about.

61 engineer cat  Mon, Dec 19, 2011 9:59:49pm

re: #52 NJDhockeyfan

Cuban Actress Blasts Actor Sean Penn as 'Communist A**-hole;' He Calls Her a 'Pig'

Heh.

hmmm... can't decide whether i'd rather be a pig or a communist...

62 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Mon, Dec 19, 2011 10:00:54pm

re: #52 NJDhockeyfan

She was being too kind.

He's an epically brilliant and talented actor, and an epically stupid douche bag about certain things.

63 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Dec 19, 2011 10:12:58pm

re: #41 austin_blue

Huh. Fancy that. Texas passed a very reasonable law during the 2009 session that required that drivers on the highway lane closest to the shoulder slow down 25 MPH below the posted speed limit when when Mr. Popo had pulled a car to the shoulder with his/her lights flashing. Too many drunks were running into the back of police cruisers and killing people.

Did they require that rental car drivers be informed of the State law when they rented cars? No. Has this pissed numerous humans off after getting tickets? Yes. Did they change the law during the 2011 session to include notification requirements?

Nope.

revenue generation!

64 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Dec 19, 2011 10:13:39pm

re: #41 austin_blue

Huh. Fancy that. Texas passed a very reasonable law during the 2009 session that required that drivers on the highway lane closest to the shoulder slow down 25 MPH below the posted speed limit when when Mr. Popo had pulled a car to the shoulder with his/her lights flashing. Too many drunks were running into the back of police cruisers and killing people.

Did they require that rental car drivers be informed of the State law when they rented cars? No. Has this pissed numerous humans off after getting tickets? Yes. Did they change the law during the 2011 session to include notification requirements?

Nope.

The tickets bring in revenue. And if with an 'oops' they can fleece out-of-staters for two more years, so what's the harm?

/sarc on that last.

65 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Dec 19, 2011 10:14:35pm

re: #63 WindUpBird

re: #64 Dark_Falcon

Cynical (or great, your choice) minds think alike.

66 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Mon, Dec 19, 2011 10:17:16pm

re: #61 engineer dog

hmmm... can't decide whether i'd rather be a pig or a communist...

Who says you have to choose?

Youtube Video
67 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Dec 19, 2011 10:43:49pm

Goodnight, all.

68 goddamnedfrank  Mon, Dec 19, 2011 11:17:22pm

re: #41 austin_blue

Huh. Fancy that. Texas passed a very reasonable law during the 2009 session that required that drivers on the highway lane closest to the shoulder slow down 25 MPH below the posted speed limit when when Mr. Popo had pulled a car to the shoulder with his/her lights flashing. Too many drunks were running into the back of police cruisers and killing people.

Did they require that rental car drivers be informed of the State law when they rented cars? No. Has this pissed numerous humans off after getting tickets? Yes. Did they change the law during the 2011 session to include notification requirements?

Nope.

I read an article once mentioning that the California Highway Patrol was asked to study and advise on the 'move over or slow down' laws when they first came out. They flatly rejected and advised against their implementation here as unsafe, creating a dangerous condition where people are impelled to change lanes suddenly or slow down drastically and without warning to other following vehicles. One of those times where I realized that the CHP was actually a highly professional organization compared to how some other states run their highway patrols.

69 goddamnedfrank  Mon, Dec 19, 2011 11:27:17pm

re: #68 goddamnedfrank

Oops, old and bad information is really old and bad:

How many California drivers don't know there's a law requiring motorists to move over or slow down when approaching emergency vehicles with lights flashing while stopped on the side of the road? The law is SB1610, and it includes safely steering clear of CalTrans workers, police officers, fire trucks, ambulances, and tow trucks.

We are already required to pull over and make way for approaching emergency vehicles with sirens or lights flashing. This law instructs drivers to safely slow down and/or change lanes (more than one lane adjacent to) any stopped emergency vehicle. Violators face a $50 fine.

The California Highway Patrol originally rejected this law in 2005, arguing that pulling over violators would place traffic and drivers in more danger. Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger agreed by vetoing the bill, saying, "This law could result in unintended consequences and additional road hazzards".

However, SB1610 was eventually passed in 2006 before expiring last month, and then re-instated by the Governor on January 1, 2010. Sponsoring Sen. Joe Simitian, D-Palo Alto says the "Move Over, Slow Down" law closely resembles similiar laws in more than 40 states.

Shit.

70 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Mon, Dec 19, 2011 11:44:47pm

re: #69 goddamnedfrank

Heh, don't feel bad. I didn't know up until about a year ago that BFI wasn't picking up garbage in CA any more, and I've been fucking living here all that time. Duh.

71 engineer cat  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 12:09:27am

264-1 = 18446744073709551615

232-1 = 4294967295

oh fuck these weird ass notations

72 engineer cat  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 12:10:52am

i wouldn't touch it with a 64-bit unsigned long

73 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 12:11:09am

Funny, I don't feel like a god. I mostly feel achy and tired, and very un-god like.

74 engineer cat  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 12:20:29am

re: #73 Slumbering Behemoth

Funny, I don't feel like a god. I mostly feel achy and tired, and very un-god like.

i'm so pleased to know that there are still people out there who have a childlike belief in magic

now if only i could become the kind of person who was capable of taking advantage of that childlike faith and totally rip them off

oh, and hope you feel better soon!

75 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 12:28:00am

re: #74 engineer dog

Heh heh.

oh, and hope you feel better soon!

Thanks dude. My body is just trying to convince me that I'm not 16 any more. And it's making some rather persuasive arguments on that front.

76 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 12:31:14am

Night all!

77 goddamnedfrank  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 12:33:10am

Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time 3D - The Musical

Youtube Video
78 researchok  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 1:16:37am

Morning, all

79 Obdicut  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 2:11:05am

I may get to go to the met today, if I power through my work this morning.

So without further ado, I'm going to go power.

80 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 2:41:39am

re: #79 Obdicut

Youtube Video
81 Obdicut  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 2:48:19am

re: #80 WindUpBird

Pretty adorable.

82 RogueOne  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 3:01:54am

Morning folks, started to post this in the Bradley thread but it's old and dead...

Forensic Examiner Found No Match of Cables on Manning’s Laptop to WikiLeaks’
[Link: www.wired.com...]

FT. MEADE, Maryland — A day after a government forensic expert testified that he’d found thousands of diplomatic cables on the Army computer of suspected WikiLeaks source Bradley Manning, he was forced to admit under cross-examination that none of the cables he compared to the ones WikiLeaks released matched.

and....

Lt. Dan Choi is back:

[Link: www.advocate.com...]

Among Manning’s supporters who rallied outside Fort Meade was Lt. Dan Choi, known for his “don’t ask, don’t tell” repeal activism; he was discharged under the policy last year. “I plan to march all night tonight and bring as much attention as I can to put the entire country on notice that we have a hero who’s standing trial for nothing more than telling the truth,” Choi told the AP.

83 Obdicut  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 3:14:12am

For fans of Chrono Trigger:

Youtube Video
84 Gus  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 4:40:52am

re: #82 RogueOne

Morning folks, started to post this in the Bradley thread but it's old and dead...

Forensic Examiner Found No Match of Cables on Manning’s Laptop to WikiLeaks’
[Link: www.wired.com...]

and...

Lt. Dan Choi is back:

[Link: www.advocate.com...]

I have lost all respect for Lt. Dan Choi.

85 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 4:44:54am

I don't care who knows it. I really like Paul McCartney's "Simply Having a Wonderful Christmastime".

It makes me smile, so... neener.

86 AK-47%  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 4:49:08am

re: #85 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Let everyone celebrate the holidays of their choice in their manner of choice. I just tune in the classical station to avoid all those hideous radio pop Christmas songs.

87 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 4:51:27am

re: #86 ralphieboy

Let everyone celebrate the holidays of their choice in their manner of choice. I just tune in the classical station to avoid all those hideous radio pop Christmas songs.

Since I got an MP3 player I don't listen to the radio at all. My car even had a 6-month Sirius subscription which I let lapse because I never listened to it.

88 Killgore Trout  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 5:19:45am

re: #84 Gus 802

I have lost all respect for Lt. Dan Choi.

It is kind of sad to see. I think it also really undermines the cause of gays in the military.

89 Obdicut  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 5:30:17am

re: #88 Killgore Trout

Nah. Anyone who extrapolates about gays in the military from that is already against gays in the military.

90 Killgore Trout  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 5:33:25am

Iowa Republicans concerned about apparent hacker threat from Anonymous group

A former activist for Occupy Des Moines, Clarke Davidson, has said he posted the two-minute video on YouTube after masked men left it outside his tent near the state Capitol on Nov. 3. Other members of the protest group have discounted Davidson's story and say they oppose any efforts to shut down the vote count.

91 Gus  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 5:33:51am

re: #88 Killgore Trout

It is kind of sad to see. I think it also really undermines the cause of gays in the military.

It certainly does undermine the efforts of gays in the military. It should be obvious to cogent observers that the opponents of the repeal of DADT as well as the bigots are watching and will no doubt point to this as an example of their talking points.

In the case of Choi's latest publicity stunt he's doing even more to undermine these efforts then Manning feeble defense. This has nothing to do with sexual identity nor gender identity -- both of which are not related. It has everything to do with a soldier that committed a treasonous act while serving as a member of the US Army. He took an oath and not only let this country down but more importantly let his fellow soldiers down.

Is this the kind of behavior that Lt. Choi chooses to endorse? A commissioned officer and a graduate of West Point? How can such a man give credence and outright support for the dissemination of classified information from within the very same organization that he belongs? Is this the kind of environment Choi and the Manning supporters intend to create for the US military?

92 Obdicut  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 5:37:42am

Also, there is no mainstream acceptance of multiple personality disorder in the psychiatric/psychological profession.

93 Gus  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 5:46:19am

re: #92 Obdicut

Also, there is no mainstream acceptance of multiple personality disorder in the psychiatric/psychological profession.

I'm a little confused about the defense and the claims of innocence by Manning and his supporters. The claim from many is that Manning's raison d'etre in this matter was to willingly release classified information as a political statement. He knowingly broke with the UCMJ and other laws in order to advance a cause. Yet now he is looking to weasel his way out of this and claim innocence due to some psychological disorder (falsely I might add), bullying, etc?

A true martyr to a cause would not behave in this manner. If he was really committed to a cause he would have pleaded guilty. While still wrong that would have been the more honorable thing for him to do -- "yes, I broke the law, but I'm glad I did it."

94 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 5:46:59am

Wow, slow night?

How's the morning all?

95 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 5:48:55am

re: #83 Obdicut

For fans of Chrono Trigger:

[Video]

too funny!

96 Obdicut  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 5:49:26am

re: #93 Gus 802

Yeah, it's pretty craven to bluster heroics and then claim you're crazy (by means of a psychiatric condition that, if it exists at all, is vanishingly rare and he's very unlikely to actually have).

97 iossarian  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 5:52:05am

re: #96 Obdicut

Yeah, it's pretty craven to bluster heroics and then claim you're crazy (by means of a psychiatric condition that, if it exists at all, is vanishingly rare and he's very unlikely to actually have).

Maybe the conditions of his detainment have broken him.

98 Obdicut  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 5:55:40am

re: #97 iossarian

Maybe the conditions of his detainment have broken him.

That's not what he's claiming, though. A claim to being unfit to stand trial due to the conditions of his imprisonment might make a little sense.

But that's not what he's claiming.

Also 'broken' isn't really a recognizable psychological condition, and I never know what people mean by it.

99 iossarian  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 6:03:33am

re: #98 Obdicut

That's not what he's claiming, though. A claim to being unfit to stand trial due to the conditions of his imprisonment might make a little sense.

But that's not what he's claiming.

Also 'broken' isn't really a recognizable psychological condition, and I never know what people mean by it.

Who knows what's going on in his mind. As an untrained and fairly disinterested observer, I wouldn't really want to speculate too much.

I was really only pointing out that whatever decisions he's making (in terms of his defense specifically, but also more generally in terms of his self-presentation) are probably affected by his past treatment in more or less significant ways.

100 Gus  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 6:03:35am

There's no two ways around it. This trial isn't necessarily about Wikileaks regardless of how much the narcissistic Julian Assange is trying to make it out to be. On its own, Manning broke the law and released these documents in violation of the UCMJ. It doesn't matter to whom it was released. In addition, this trial isn't about the particular violations and is in no way intended to re-write or amend the UCMJ to find Manning "not guilty".

101 Gus  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 6:08:45am

So what do they want? Seriously. Do the Manning supporters really want to "legalize the leaking of classified and top secret information by members of the US armed services?"

102 Obdicut  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 6:11:52am

re: #99 iossarian

Who knows what's going on in his mind. As an untrained and fairly disinterested observer, I wouldn't really want to speculate too much.

I was really only pointing out that whatever decisions he's making (in terms of his defense specifically, but also more generally in terms of his self-presentation) are probably affected by his past treatment in more or less significant ways.

I'm just not sure what you're driving at. I'm pointing out-- as was Gus-- that claiming you did these things bravely, as a whistleblower, and claiming that the documents weren't really important so it doesn't matter, and that you're not responsible because you were mentally ill, are all independent and occasionally contradictory defenses.

They don't show any craziness, though, they're all perfectly 'good' legal defenses. If he were firing his lawyers and wanting to represent himself, then that'd indicate maybe that he was cracking up in some way from confinement.

It seems like you're just saying "Maybe his confinement has affected him in some ways", which, you know, is probably true, but I'm at a loss as to what the point of that statement is.

103 Obdicut  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 6:14:31am

re: #101 Gus 802

So what do they want? Seriously. Do the Manning supporters really want to "legalize the leaking of classified and top secret information by members of the US armed services?"

Some of them actually do, yes. The 'information should be free' types are rather ideological.

And it's more than the leaking-- it's the completely unselective leaking of classified information. He didn't find something that he decided people really needed to hear, he decided that everything, even shit he didn't understand, needed to be released.

That's what makes him pathetic in my eyes. That's not whistleblowing.

104 Gus  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 6:15:04am

So it would have been "cool" to leak classified information to Gaddafi during the Libyan NATO conflict? Perhaps leak classified information to the belligerent Serbian forces during the Bosnian War?

Should we have allowed the leaking of information about the Enigma machine to the Germans during WWII? What's next? Leaking military plans to Ahmadinejad regarding any strike plans in Iran?

105 Gus  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 6:16:55am

re: #103 Obdicut

Some of them actually do, yes. The 'information should be free' types are rather ideological.

And it's more than the leaking-- it's the completely unselective leaking of classified information. He didn't find something that he decided people really needed to hear, he decided that everything, even shit he didn't understand, needed to be released.

That's what makes him pathetic in my eyes. That's not whistleblowing.

The word I'm thinking of right now isn't "extreme". It's "fringe". This is almost beyond extremism. It's a fringe mentality that will never be attained until we discover Unicorns.

106 Gus  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 6:21:19am

Why even have intellectual property for that matter. From now on everything is "open source" for all the world to see. Throw in the repeal of private property while we at it. Thus, I can burn all the Lady Gaga albums of my choosing and freely sell them on the internet for pennies on the dollar. I can also hack into her personal email account and publish it for all the world to see. From now on, what's yours is mine!

//

107 iossarian  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 6:21:30am

re: #102 Obdicut

It seems like you're just saying "Maybe his confinement has affected him in some ways", which, you know, is probably true, but I'm at a loss as to what the point of that statement is.

Well, when terms such as "craven" and "pathetic" are being thrown around, these are obviously value judgements. My only point is that there are reasons why we may not be seeing Manning at his best.

108 Gus  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 6:22:12am

re: #107 iossarian

Well, when terms such as "craven" and "pathetic" are being thrown around, these are obviously value judgements. My only point is that there are reasons why we may not be seeing Manning at his best.

I think Manning was at his best when he tried to stab his stepmother.

//

*True story.

109 Obdicut  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 6:23:02am

re: #107 iossarian

Well, when terms such as "craven" and "pathetic" are being thrown around, these are obviously value judgements. My only point is that there are reasons why we may not be seeing Manning at his best.

I'm judging his actions before his confinement, you realize, right?

110 iossarian  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 6:23:43am

re: #104 Gus 802

So it would have been "cool" to leak classified information to Gaddafi during the Libyan NATO conflict? Perhaps leak classified information to the belligerent Serbian forces during the Bosnian War?

Should we have allowed the leaking of information about the Enigma machine to the Germans during WWII? What's next? Leaking military plans to Ahmadinejad regarding any strike plans in Iran?

Regardless of the opponent, if you discovered classified evidence that your side had committed war crimes*, should you release that information?

* I'm not claiming that this is what happened in the Manning case, for the record.

111 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 6:25:17am

re: #106 Gus 802

Why even have intellectual property for that matter. From now on everything is "open source" for all the world to see. Throw in the repeal of private property while we at it. Thus, I can burn all the Lady Gaga albums of my choosing and freely sell them on the internet for pennies on the dollar. I can also hack into her personal email account and publish it for all the world to see. From now on, what's yours is mine!

//

Property rights of any kind only apply to people like Manning. The rest of us are fair game.

/gah

112 iossarian  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 6:26:08am

re: #109 Obdicut

I'm judging his actions before his confinement, you realize, right?

Actually, I did not realize that. Like I said, I haven't been following the trial very closely. I though you were referring to a legal defense that he is offering now, i.e. post-confinement?

Is that not the case?

113 Obdicut  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 6:27:05am

re: #110 iossarian

If you're not claiming it's what happened, why talk about it? Hypotheticals are, by definition, endless.

But sure, I'd publicize war crimes if I discovered them. I wouldn't do so by leaking a shitload of information not related to war crimes in any way. And I'd only do so after going through normal channels had failed.

And I'd be willing to be jailed for doing so, since sometimes life's funny like that.

So what?

114 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 6:27:19am

re: #110 iossarian

Regardless of the opponent, if you discovered classified evidence that your side had committed war crimes*, should you release that information?

* I'm not claiming that this is what happened in the Manning case, for the record.

I'd have to wonder why I, a low level employee, had access to the information in the first place.

Then I'd wonder what the context was that I, the low level employee, was missing.

115 Gus  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 6:28:14am

re: #110 iossarian

Regardless of the opponent, if you discovered classified evidence that your side had committed war crimes*, should you release that information?

* I'm not claiming that this is what happened in the Manning case, for the record.

If I made that decision I would simply release specific information regarding the specifically alleged war crime. I would not release 250,000 classified documents amidst said claim. In fact by doing so it would dilute my intentions and cause. I would also be willing to face whatever legal ramifications I would face as a result of my act.

116 Obdicut  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 6:29:08am

re: #112 iossarian

Actually, I did not realize that. Like I said, I haven't been following the trial very closely. I though you were referring to a legal defense that he is offering now, i.e. post-confinement?

Is that not the case?

It's kind of annoying to be having a conversation with someone who says that they're not really paying attention.

What I find pathetic is his unselective release of information. he did not whistleblow. He just spewed out a ton of classified info, regardless of its contents. That's pathetic.

As for 'craven', that is about his current numerous legal defenses. So sure, feel free to say that maybe he's just acting cravenly because he's all traumatized from prison. It's complete speculation, of course.

117 kirkspencer  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 6:33:48am

IIRC, Manning's not the one who claimed he was doing something heroic.

Part of the mess is that while Manning did something wrong, the US government overplayed its hand. Unpacking that...

(Since I've gotten long-winded, let me summarize. We have here a case of two distinct wrongs. Due to their intersection and the way our system works, the penalty Manning will receive for his wrong will be reduced due to the wrong done to him.)

Manning copied classified information and knowingly gave it to unauthorized people. This makes him guilty of a crime. However, there are several possible crimes that may apply, just as killing someone may be murder or may be homicide (intentional or unintentional).

One of the relevant questions is whether Manning did this after coordination with Assange, or if he gave it to Assange after the theft.

The government wanted wikileaks shut down. They saw the potential to have Assange identified as an instigator of espionage and so subject to extradition, detention, prosecution, and internment within this nation.

Enter the overstep - and in my opinion the first of a whole series of errors - of the US government. They failed to treat Manning in accordance with law, both civil and military. They came within a hair's breadth (and may have crossed the line) in making his treatment torturous. The government's agents treated Manning as already convicted and a "hostile intelligence source", in accordance with the stupid (my opinion) and counterproductive interrogation processes re-developed for the GWOT.

The people in critical positions were so certain Manning was an agent for Assange that they made no provision (CYA or otherwise) for being wrong. The longer he 'resisted', the harder they pushed. I suspect that several have begun to think he was just a fool, not an agent, but they've already dug the hole and are hoping if they keep digging they can get out of the hole.

My guess, and it's only a guess, is that when the dust settles in three to five more years, Manning will be a convicted felon walking free. His conviction will be for one of the lesser espionage related charges. He will be free because the courts tend to frown on abuses of the system. I don't think this will happen until the appeals get into the civil system.

We have here a case of two distinct wrongs. Some people are unhappy about one or the other. Some people - me, for one - are angry about both. Regardless, due to their intersection and the way our system works, the penalty Manning will receive for his wrong will probably be reduced due to the wrong done to him.

118 iossarian  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 6:36:16am

re: #116 Obdicut

It's kind of annoying to be having a conversation with someone who says that they're not really paying attention.

You say, just underneath this, that your 'craven' comment is about his 'current' legal defenses - hence my assumption that you are talking about his post-confinement self-presentation. Apologies for my confusion.

What I find pathetic is his unselective release of information. he did not whistleblow. He just spewed out a ton of classified info, regardless of its contents. That's pathetic.

Maybe. Has the release of information harmed the US in some significant way?

re: #114 ggt

I'd have to wonder why I, a low level employee, had access to the information in the first place.

Then I'd wonder what the context was that I, the low level employee, was missing.

There's always context. I don't really think you're saying that you would ignore evidence of war crimes on the assumption that people higher up the food chain are taking care of business in the appropriate way.

119 Obdicut  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 6:38:19am

re: #118 iossarian

Maybe. Has the release of information harmed the US in some significant way?

Why is that important? It's completely irrelevant to the point I'm making.

120 kirkspencer  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 6:41:09am

re: #114 ggt

I'd have to wonder why I, a low level employee, had access to the information in the first place.

Then I'd wonder what the context was that I, the low level employee, was missing.

Though you don't intend it that way, that is the "I was just following orders" defense. It puts you in a nasty place when you think about it, for the point you just raised. If you see something that appears to be wrong done by those you trust, you're damned if you guess wrong in deciding whether or not to act.

121 iossarian  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 6:42:30am

re: #119 Obdicut

Why is that important? It's completely irrelevant to the point I'm making.

You're right, it's not particularly relevant to your point.

Anyway, who knows what Manning's thought processes were. If he didn't have the capacity to sift through the data, maybe dumping it and shipping it to someone who did was his only viable option?

122 Obdicut  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 6:45:07am

re: #121 iossarian

Anyway, who knows what Manning's thought processes were. If he didn't have the capacity to sift through the data, maybe dumping it and shipping it to someone who did was his only viable option?

You really seem to be drowning in a sea of hypotheticals.

If that was his thought process, how is that an excuse or defense of any kind? He shipped them to someone who isn't known for being selective in release of information, so why would he expect that person to be cautious and careful?

123 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 6:45:19am

re: #114 ggt

There's always context. I don't really think you're saying that you would ignore evidence of war crimes on the assumption that people higher up the food chain are taking care of business in the appropriate way.

I would make superiors aware of what I had found (follow the chain of command). I wouldn't assume I knew all there was to know and release it to the public.

124 Renaissance_Man  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 6:45:27am

re: #121 iossarian

You're right, it's not particularly relevant to your point.

Anyway, who knows what Manning's thought processes were. If he didn't have the capacity to sift through the data, maybe dumping it and shipping it to someone who did was his only viable option?

Well, no, not releasing classified data you don't know anything about is always a viable option.

125 Daniel Ballard  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 6:45:31am

For anyone who wants to read deeply into the Manning situation, Wired has had excellent coverage.
This is typical and the most current. But they must have a dozen articles or more going back.

126 NJDhockeyfan  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 6:46:25am

Teen with Down Syndrome accused of sexual harassment

PARK HILLS, MO (KFVS) -He's a 14 year old with Down Syndrome and now his family is fighting to defend him against allegations of sexual harassment.

It's a very interesting story unfolding in the Central R-3 School District in Park Hills.

Superintendent Desmond Mayberry says the district took disciplinary action against 14-year-old Alec Scott last week over an incident that happened on a school bus.

The bus aid says Scott hugged her in a manner she deemed to be sexual in nature and inappropriate. But Scott's sister and home health aid say they were there to witness the incident and they feel the teenager did not do anything wrong.

His mother, Tonia Fujimoto, also made it to the bus last Wednesday and she now aggressively defends her son.

"How is it sexual harassment if he doesn't know anything about sex and doesn't understand the act of it?" said Fujimoto. "I thought 'You've got I be kidding me.'"

127 Obdicut  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 6:50:01am

re: #125 Rightwingconspirator

Page not found.

128 iossarian  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 6:51:18am

re: #125 Rightwingconspirator

Did you mean this one? Your link didn't work for me...

[Link: www.wired.com...]

re: #122 Obdicut

You really seem to be drowning in a sea of hypotheticals.

We're all speculating here. No need to dip into the magic metaphor bag.

If that was his thought process, how is that an excuse or defense of any kind? He shipped them to someone who isn't known for being selective in release of information, so why would he expect that person to be cautious and careful?

Maybe he didn't, but thought that the alternative (to not release anything) was worse.

re: #123 ggt

I would make superiors aware of what I had found (follow the chain of command). I wouldn't assume I knew all there was to know and release it to the public.

So, in the case where your superiors are the war criminals, what happens next?

129 prairiefire  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 6:51:56am

re: #126 NJDhockeyfan

I think the mother should pay more attention to her son's sexual development. He can have Down syndrome and experience puberty. The bus driver probably needs to explain more about what she thought happened.

130 Daniel Ballard  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 6:52:13am

re: #127 Obdicut

Page not found.

Whoops. Once you are in there, the previous articles are conveniently linked at the bottom.

[Link: www.wired.com...]

131 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 6:52:39am

re: #123 ggt

So, in the case where your superiors are the war criminals, what happens next?

So, there is procedure for that in every organization I've ever worked with. I'd follow procedure as best as possible.

I'd probably involve a Congress Critter if necessary.

132 Gus  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 6:53:23am

re: #121 iossarian

You're right, it's not particularly relevant to your point.

Anyway, who knows what Manning's thought processes were. If he didn't have the capacity to sift through the data, maybe dumping it and shipping it to someone who did was his only viable option?

That's still no excuse. He knew specifically about the Apache helicopter assault according to previously released information. This is like handing over the server for a police department to outside sources in order to pinpoint a specific abuse charge against a few cops. A server which includes mountain of information with regards to ongoing criminal police investigations.

133 NJDhockeyfan  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 6:54:44am

re: #129 prairiefire

I think the mother should pay more attention to her son's sexual development. He can have Down syndrome and experience puberty. The bus driver probably needs to explain more about what she thought happened.

There is a video of the incident but they are refusing to release it. If it really happened then show proof.

134 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 6:55:48am

re: #133 NJDhockeyfan

There is a video of the incident but they are refusing to release it. If it really happened then show proof.

More likely, the teenage girl felt uncomfortable being around a person afflicted with Down's. Teenage girls can be so weird that way.

"OOOh, he made me feel uncomfortable."

135 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 6:57:06am

re: #134 ggt

More likely, the teenage girl felt uncomfortable being around a person afflicted with Down's. Teenage girls can be so weird that way.

"OOOh, he made me feel uncomfortable."

Ewwww, that retard touched me!
//there you have it

136 kirkspencer  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 6:57:06am

re: #126 NJDhockeyfan

Teen with Down Syndrome accused of sexual harassment

Ummm, he's 14. Down syndrome or not, his body's going through puberty.

I read the article and there are two points of interest.

To the accuser's side, the teen often hugs the aid (according to the sister). That means to her "this time was different".

To the mother's side, the school won't let her view the surveillance tape that shows the incident.

Not enough info to know which side is wrong, here, but that won't stop people from jumping in.

137 NJDhockeyfan  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 6:58:37am

re: #136 kirkspencer

Ummm, he's 14. Down syndrome or not, his body's going through puberty.

I read the article and there are two points of interest.

To the accuser's side, the teen often hugs the aid (according to the sister). That means to her "this time was different".

To the mother's side, the school won't let her view the surveillance tape that shows the incident.

Not enough info to know which side is wrong, here, but that won't stop people from jumping in.

The simple thing would be to show the mother the tape. Why the delay?

138 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 6:59:21am

re: #137 NJDhockeyfan

The simple thing would be to show the mother the tape. Why the delay?

Lawyers probably. But that didn't seem to make a difference when releasing the story . . .???

139 Gus  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 6:59:48am

It's interesting to see how people react to government actions. One moment they're saying "don't trust the government" here. And a couple of minutes later they're saying "trust the government" there.

140 iossarian  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 7:00:07am

re: #132 Gus 802

That's still no excuse. He knew specifically about the Apache helicopter assault according to previously released information. This is like handing over the server for a police department to outside sources in order to pinpoint a specific abuse charge against a few cops. A server which includes mountain of information with regards to ongoing criminal police investigations.

So, I agree that this is really the crux. And the question is, why would you hand over all the information rather than a targeted release?

I suppose there are several possible explanations, some of which put Manning in a worse light than others (at least in terms of his motivation, if not his legal defense).

141 prairiefire  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 7:00:58am

When we were at a scouting event last Spring, an older scout with Down was sitting in the row in front of my daughter and I. He looked back at us a couple of times and the third time he quickly brought his arm down and smacked me hard against my knee. I was surprised, but I just stared at him and didn't say anything to his mom.
If he continued to act out like that, the situation would be handled down the road. I certainly did not want to bring it up to his mom at the scouting event.

142 Gus  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 7:01:07am

So the next time your 5 year old plays doctor with the girl next door? Get a lawyer.

What a pathetic society we've become.

143 kirkspencer  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 7:01:59am

re: #134 ggt

More likely, the teenage girl felt uncomfortable being around a person afflicted with Down's. Teenage girls can be so weird that way.

"OOOh, he made me feel uncomfortable."

What teenage girl? The complaint comes from the bus aid. Bus aids are employees of the system - adults, not teens picking up social service credites.

144 kirkspencer  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 7:02:32am

re: #138 ggt

Lawyers probably. But that didn't seem to make a difference when releasing the story . . .???

It was the mother who released the story.

145 reloadingisnotahobby  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 7:02:50am

Some where , some how in todays news and event around the world this quote is NOT Off Topic...

'There are not enough Indians in the world to defeat the 7th Cavalry'

George Armstong Custer
...thanks for that George...///
Goodmorning all!
Y'all ready??

146 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 7:03:32am

re: #143 kirkspencer

What teenage girl? The complaint comes from the bus aid. Bus aids are employees of the system - adults, not teens picking up social service credites.

Sorry, I misread it.

I do know one story (personal friend) for whom the "aid" in a classroom charged the mentally ill son with battery --because he tried to get her attention by touching her.

So, I'll take it all with a grain of salt.

147 iossarian  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 7:03:42am

re: #139 Gus 802

It's interesting to see how people react to government actions. One moment they're saying "don't trust the government" here. And a couple of minutes later they're saying "trust the government" there.

I think trust is largely built on transparency. I have a fair amount of trust in transparent, democratically-determined government functions. I have far less trust in things that go on out of sight.

148 lawhawk  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 7:03:58am

re: #128 iossarian

In many cases, you'd be required to contact the DOD Inspector General's office or the Criminal Investigative Department/Service for the appropriate branch. Various military publications (Training manuals, guides, etc.) might have additional requirements and how to address the matter both inside and outside the chain of command.

149 NJDhockeyfan  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 7:04:00am

re: #142 Gus 802

So the next time your 5 year old plays doctor with the girl next door? Get a lawyer.

What a pathetic society we've become.

Shit, if your 9 year old calls his teacher 'cute', he might get suspended for sexual harassment too.

150 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 7:04:18am

re: #144 kirkspencer

It was the mother who released the story.

That's it, I've obviously not had enough coffee yet.

bbl

151 iossarian  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 7:05:20am

re: #148 lawhawk

In many cases, you'd be required to contact the DOD Inspector General's office or the Criminal Investigative Department/Service for the appropriate branch. Various military publications (Training manuals, guides, etc.) might have additional requirements and how to address the matter both inside and outside the chain of command.

I think the parallel with the graduate assistant at Penn State, who by all accounts followed his reporting guidelines conscientiously, is very interesting.

152 Gus  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 7:05:25am

re: #149 NJDhockeyfan

Shit, if your 9 year old calsl his teacher 'cute', he might get suspended for sexual harassment too.

I heard about that a couple of weeks ago. Fortunately, the school district dropped the "charges." All part of this hyper-environment we've created and zero-tolerance BS in many schools.

153 NJDhockeyfan  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 7:07:19am

re: #152 Gus 802

I heard about that a couple of weeks ago. Fortunately, the school district dropped the "charges." All part of this hyper-environment we've created and zero-tolerance BS in many schools.

There was so much outrage about it that the principal suddenly retired.

154 Killgore Trout  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 7:08:08am

Denver cops clear Occupy Denver; protesters set shelters aflame, then take to streets (with video)

White said officers had hoped to ask the protestors a final time to remove their belongings, but when two prostestors began setting the shelters aflame, officers and firefighters had to move it.
A firetruck moved in to douse the flames as a battery of police closed ranks shouting, "Move back!" to allow firefighters access.
Police said two protestors were arrested on arson charges and two were arrested on charges of failing to obey a lawful order.

155 Gus  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 7:08:52am

re: #153 NJDhockeyfan

There was so much outrage about it that the principal suddenly retired.

Good.

156 Obdicut  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 7:09:21am

re: #147 iossarian

I think trust is largely built on transparency. I have a fair amount of trust in transparent, democratically-determined government functions. I have far less trust in things that go on out of sight.

Do you think what goes on in jury rooms ought to be open to the public?

Or what happens in the voting booth?

157 NJDhockeyfan  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 7:10:02am

re: #154 Killgore Trout

Denver cops clear Occupy Denver; protesters set shelters aflame, then take to streets (with video)

I just saw this one from the other day:

Occupy Olympia demonstrators vacate park, abandoned building

OLYMPIA, Wash. -- Occupy Olympia demonstrators have left the vacant building adjacent to their original Heritage Park encampment following requests from Olympia Police Department officers in conjunction with Washington State Patrol.

After demonstrators voluntarily left the abandoned health department building, police searched it and found no remaining people inside. No arrests were made.

Earlier this morning, WSP cleared Heritage Park, moving demonstrators to another area of the park while they removed camping equipment. According to WSP, the officers found "obvious biohazards" within the camp, including hypodermic needles. WSP said the demonstrators cooperated in the removal of the campsites.

Occupy Olympia demonstrators had remained camped in Heritage Park early Friday in defiance of a state eviction order with some moving into a vacant building across the street, declaring it the Rachel Corrie Community Center.

158 kirkspencer  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 7:11:04am

re: #137 NJDhockeyfan

The simple thing would be to show the mother the tape. Why the delay?

Privacy laws. They're causing issues in several states.

Here's the thing - the relevant actors aren't the only people in view of the camera. There are also a bunch of other minors. Thus there's a legal requirement to protect the privacy of the other students.

It takes some legal hurdle-work to allow a parent to see the video because of that. It's doable, but it takes some time.

Which the mother hasn't allowed. Incident Wednesday, tried in the press Monday.

159 Gus  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 7:11:32am

re: #156 Obdicut

Do you think what goes on in jury rooms ought to be open to the public?

Or what happens in the voting booth?

What about industry or business secrets? Many would claim that these secrets have a direct impact on society and should be open to the public. So which industry would have to be transparent first? Would it be Exxon or Apple Computers?

160 iossarian  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 7:13:10am

re: #156 Obdicut

Do you think what goes on in jury rooms ought to be open to the public?

Or what happens in the voting booth?

Now we're getting into some really interesting questions.

In the case of the voting booth, you have a very complex situation, where the outcome of the vote needs to be verifiable in a transparent way, and yet the identity of each individual vote needs to be obfuscated.

Very difficult to pull off, especially at scale. In some ways impossible - if a vote can be verified by the individual who casts it, then in theory that individual can be forced to reveal the vote.

161 EdDantes  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 7:14:01am

You can't treat a child with down syndrome the same as other children. The school district is an ass.

162 darthstar  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 7:14:51am

re: #157 NJDhockeyfan

I just saw this one from the other day:

Occupy Olympia demonstrators vacate park, abandoned building

You know, when I'm looking for a good place to shoot heroin, I try to find a grass-roots protest that sings to my sense of patriotism...like last year when I was at the Restoring Faith and Functionality event with Glenn Beck and Sarah Palin...there I was, shooting up with Paul Revere and Benjamin Franklin, while not three feet away from me Betsy Ross was blowing George Washington....good times.

Of course, before OWS those abandoned buildings were only used for cub scouts merit badge ceremonies...

163 kirkspencer  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 7:15:01am

re: #161 EdDantes

You can't treat a child with down syndrome the same as other children. The school district is an ass.

No, sorry. Legally you can't treat a child with down syndrome differently from other children except in carefully proscribed areas.

164 iossarian  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 7:15:35am

re: #159 Gus 802

What about industry or business secrets? Many would claim that these secrets have a direct impact on society and should be open to the public. So which industry would have to be transparent first? Would it be Exxon or Apple Computers?

Certainly you would think that any business with an implicit societal guarantee against failure could be expected to operate under a certain degree of public transparency.

165 lawhawk  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 7:15:45am

re: #151 iossarian

Yes, there's a legal standard - that you have to report to your superiors. But there's also a moral and ethical standard, that highly suggests (at least in the Penn State situation) going directly to law enforcement to have them investigate the matter more fully.

In the Penn State situation, had McQueary gone directly to the police, they might have carried out an investigation and in the process potentially protected those kids who were later abused. Instead, by following the letter of the law and procedure, he went to his superiors within the athletic department and they essentially buried the matter. Legally, McQueary is off the hook, but from a moral/ethical perspective one has to think he should have done more.

166 Gus  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 7:16:55am

I don't have enough information here. But your average everyday hug is not sexual harassment. One that includes an unwanted slobbering wet kiss would likely be considered as such. However, treating all hugs as though they were the same, with zero tolerance, is an absurdity.

167 Killgore Trout  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 7:17:56am

re: #157 NJDhockeyfan

I just saw this one from the other day:

Occupy Olympia demonstrators vacate park, abandoned building

The movement just keeps getting worse.

168 iossarian  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 7:18:21am

re: #165 lawhawk

Exactly.

The Penn State case might even reveal that some local police/news people were involved in the cover-up, who knows?

If McQueary's only option had been to send a bunch of cctv footage to the New York Post, should he have done that?

169 Gus  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 7:18:30am

re: #164 iossarian

Certainly you would think that any business with an implicit societal guarantee against failure could be expected to operate under a certain degree of public transparency.

To a "certain degree" but that already occurs through regulation and enforcement. An absurd level, or complete transparency, would be a guarantee of business failure.

170 iossarian  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 7:19:52am

re: #169 Gus 802

To a "certain degree" but that already occurs through regulation and enforcement. An absurd level, or complete transparency, would be a guarantee of business failure.

We agree that some degree of transparency is required though. Then we're just left with arguing over what the correct degree is.

171 Killgore Trout  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 7:20:17am

Fights break out at Occupy Eugene, man hospitalized with life-threatening injuries

Fights break out at Occupy Eugene overnight, sending one man to the hospital with life threatening injuries.

172 lawhawk  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 7:21:03am

re: #168 iossarian

If McQueary's only option had been to send a bunch of cctv footage to the New York Post, should he have done that?

If that's his only option after exhausting every other option? Maybe. But that supposed that he couldn't have gone to other law enforcement outside the university PD - say the Penn State Troopers or the FBI (who may have concurrent jurisdiction).

173 kirkspencer  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 7:21:26am

re: #165 lawhawk

Yes, there's a legal standard - that you have to report to your superiors. But there's also a moral and ethical standard, that highly suggests (at least in the Penn State situation) going directly to law enforcement to have them investigate the matter more fully.

In the Penn State situation, had McQueary gone directly to the police, they might have carried out an investigation and in the process potentially protected those kids who were later abused. Instead, by following the letter of the law and procedure, he went to his superiors within the athletic department and they essentially buried the matter. Legally, McQueary is off the hook, but from a moral/ethical perspective one has to think

Slight disagreement. The legal standard is not that you have to report to your superiors but that you must report to police. (well, civil or military "authority".) That may be and usually is the policy of the organization but it's not the legal standard.

18 USC § 4
MISPRISION OF FELONY

Whoever, having knowledge of the actual commission of a felony cognizable by a court of the United States, conceals and does not as soon as possible make known the same to some judge or other person in civil or military authority under the United States, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than three years, or both.

174 iossarian  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 7:21:50am

re: #172 lawhawk

If that's his only option after exhausting every other option? Maybe. But that supposed that he couldn't have gone to other law enforcement outside the university PD - say the Penn State Troopers or the FBI (who may have concurrent jurisdiction).

Sure, I agree with that, absolutely. I'm only saying that things would have been better if the information had been released, more or less regardless of the method used.

175 Gus  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 7:22:35am

re: #170 iossarian

We agree that some degree of transparency is required though. Then we're just left with arguing over what the correct degree is.

It all depends on the potential public impact. Health, safety, environmental factors. Others would include social impact but that's generally protected by the 1st Amendment.

176 kirkspencer  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 7:24:01am

re: #166 Gus 802

I don't have enough information here. But your average everyday hug is not sexual harassment. One that includes an unwanted slobbering wet kiss would likely be considered as such. However, treating all hugs as though they were the same, with zero tolerance, is an absurdity.

Except they didn't treat all hugs the same.

Read the article. The accused has frequently hugged the accuser, and has never pulled a complaint.

This. Time. Was. Different. He did something this time he's not done before that had the aid go "waitaminute".

177 iossarian  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 7:27:00am

Chain of command appropriately followed:

[Link: www.nytimes.com...]

178 sattv4u2  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 7:27:38am

re: #167 Killgore Trout

The movement just keeps getting worse.

According to WSP,(Washington State Patrol) the officers found "obvious biohazards" within the camp, including hypodermic needles

DON'T USE THE BROWN HYPO NEEDLES!!

179 NJDhockeyfan  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 7:28:33am

Jon Bon Jovi takes to Facebook to prove he is not dead

The rumours of 49-year-old Bon Jovi's demise began on Monday when the dailynewbloginternational claimed he "was pronounced dead today after paramedics found him in a coma at his Empress Hotel, city and law enforcement of Asbury Park".

Bon Jovi however was quick to kill the rumours with a post on his Facebook and Twitter pages, saying: "Heaven looks a lot like New Jersey". He included with the post a photo of him holding up the same message, as well the date, December 19th, 2011, 6:00.

LOL!

180 NJDhockeyfan  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 7:28:58am

re: #178 sattv4u2

According to WSP,(Washington State Patrol) the officers found "obvious biohazards" within the camp, including hypodermic needles

DON'T USE THE BROWN HYPO NEEDLES!!

Don't step on them either.

181 darthstar  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 7:30:23am

re: #177 iossarian

Chain of command appropriately followed:

[Link: www.nytimes.com...]

Chain of Command? Paterno should have asked McQueary why he didn't call the police...and then Paterno should have picked up the telephone and CALLED THE POLICE himself.

182 kirkspencer  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 7:31:19am

re: #167 Killgore Trout

The movement just keeps getting worse.

Fun question. What was in the syringes? For example... insulin?

The article doesn't say.

183 Obdicut  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 7:32:03am

re: #177 iossarian

Not the military. There's no chain of command. So, no.

184 NJDhockeyfan  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 7:33:19am

New Hampshire voters should draft Hillary
By PATRICK H. CADDELL and DOUGLAS E. SCHOEN

We argued in a recent Wall Street Journal op-ed piece that President Barack Obama should stand down and let Secretary of State Hillary Clinton run as the Democratic presidential nominee in 2012.

We are now calling on Democratic voters nationally — particularly in New Hampshire — to organize a write-in campaign for Clinton. This is something that New Hampshire voters have a long history of doing.

We advocate this Draft Hillary movement not because of the desire to make political mischief — but to put the country on the right course.

It’s clear that Obama has been unable to build consensus and, with the polarizing campaign he is now running, will be unable to govern effectively even if reelected. Only Clinton can commit the Democratic Party — and, indeed, the nation — to a unification and healing process. This could allow Washington, in a bipartisan manner, to finally address the economic and governmental crises that now grip America.

Ouch.

185 Gus  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 7:35:32am

re: #176 kirkspencer

Except they didn't treat all hugs the same.

Read the article. The accused has frequently hugged the accuser, and has never pulled a complaint.

This. Time. Was. Different. He did something this time he's not done before that had the aid go "waitaminute".

OK

186 NJDhockeyfan  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 7:35:42am

re: #182 kirkspencer

Fun question. What was in the syringes? For example... insulin?

The article doesn't say.

Probably insulin. There been a big problem at these Occupy encampments with diabetics leaving their needles all over the place.
///
‎

187 kirkspencer  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 7:38:23am

re: #184 NJDhockeyfan

New Hampshire voters should draft Hillary
By PATRICK H. CADDELL and DOUGLAS E. SCHOEN

Ouch.

Why ouch? It's Caddell and Schoen, frequent Fox News (sic) personalities.

188 NJDhockeyfan  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 7:39:47am

re: #187 kirkspencer

Why ouch? It's Caddell and Schoen, frequent Fox News (sic) personalities.

They are Democrats aren't they or are all Dems who appear on Fox instant DINOs?

189 Obdicut  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 7:40:44am

re: #188 NJDhockeyfan

Zell Miller was also a Democrat.

190 Decatur Deb  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 7:40:45am

re: #184 NJDhockeyfan

New Hampshire voters should draft Hillary
By PATRICK H. CADDELL and DOUGLAS E. SCHOEN

Ouch.

Some merit in the idea. My son suggests that the GOP run her. She's not Romney.

191 NJDhockeyfan  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 7:41:50am

Embarcadero Center Threatened to Sue City Over Occupy Encampment

The Hyatt Regency and Vitale hotels complained of foul camp conditions, "sexual harassment," and an employee getting coffee thrown on him by Occupiers

The 99 percent might wage war with drum circles, slogans, and tent cities, but the 1 percent will fight back -- in court. Among the many pressures Mayor Ed Lee faced when trying to evict the Occupy SF camp from Justin Herman Plaza were threats of getting sued by the owners of Embarcadero Center and heated complaints from nearby hotels, according to letters turned over by the mayor's office to SF Weekly.

The Embarcadero Center threatened to sue the city in three letters in November for allowing Occupiers to camp out in tents, vandalize its property, and present "disastrous" conditions for its Christmas lights ceremony and ice show. As of Friday, Matt Dorsey, spokesman for the City Attorney's Office, said that the Embarcadero Center had not made good on its threat to file a claim against the city. The center's attorney hasn't returned our messages.

Additionally, a representative of the Hyatt Regency wrote to Supervisor Sean Elsbernd, saying that Occupy had been "hijacked by vagrants and delinquents who are seriously impacting my business and this neighborhood." The luxury Hotel Vitale at 8 Mission Street also wrote Mayor Lee, outlining episodes of alleged harassment endured by employees, including one who claims coffee was thrown on him and another being cat-called by Occupiers as she left work.

But none pulled out the legal threats like Boston Properties, the owner of Embarcadero Center. A November 7 letter by the landlord's attorney Marshall Wallace threatens to sue the city for damages and injunctive relief for failing to enforce city codes at Justin Herman Plaza, part of which Embarcadero Center maintains.

The letter stated that two tenants had ended lease negotiations with the property in the previous week, and one of the sponsors of the holiday ice rink at Justin Herman Plaza withdrew its sponsorship because of the camp. Additionally, it alleged that Occupiers had stolen from patrons, peed on and vandalized its property, destroyed paper towel dispensers and left syringes in the bathrooms.

192 EdDantes  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 7:42:26am

re: #186 NJDhockeyfan

Probably insulin. There been a big problem at these Occupy encampments with diabetics leaving their needles all over the place.
///
‎

It was the same at Woodstock: Over represented by diabetics (bless them)

193 sattv4u2  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 7:43:21am

re: #187 kirkspencer

Why ouch? It's Caddell and Schoen, frequent Fox News (sic) personalities.

I don't think their "dem cred" (especially Caddells) should be questioned regardless of where they show up on TV
[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]
He has worked for Democratic presidential candidates George McGovern in 1972, Jimmy Carter in 1976 and 1980, Gary Hart in 1984, Joe Biden in 1988, and Jerry Brown in 1992

Do you also question Bob Beckel? He's one of the hosts on Fox TV's "The Five"

194 darthstar  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 7:43:37am

re: #187 kirkspencer

Why ouch? It's Caddell and Schoen, frequent Fox News (sic) personalities.

It's simply some red meat for conservatives to get their hopes up that some kind of anti-Obama surge could be started - maybe plant some hypodermic needles at a town hall and see if it can grow into a controversy - desperate measures by desperate people. Like the "Hillaryis44" website...still pink, still spewing paranoid delusions...I'd be surprised if NJD wasn't a poster there...

December 19th, 2011
Draft Hillary Or Die, Part I

We promised to publish several articles about Hillary 2012. We promised the articles would begin to appear in September. There are reasons why we did not keep our promise.

By summer we were led to understand something was going to happen in September that might cause a change in the line of succession in the United States. Originally Barack Obama was set to stab Israel in the back at the United Nations and that Obama treachery would have had domestic consequences and a possible resignation. But that treachery was averted by Palestinian bumbling and miscalculations at the U.N. and a smart Hillary Clinton.

OBAMA WAS SUPPOSED TO DO SOMETHING EVIL BUT HE FAILED TO DO EVEN THAT!!

Fucking retards. Just like Caddell and Schoen.

195 Killgore Trout  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 7:43:47am

re: #191 NJDhockeyfan

Occupiers had stolen from patrons, peed on and vandalized its property, destroyed paper towel dispensers and left syringes in the bathrooms.

Again with the needles. The 99% sure love their heroin.

196 sattv4u2  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 7:44:28am

re: #195 Killgore Trout

Again with the needles. The 99% sure love their heroin insulin.

tsk tsk ,, no need to jump to conclusions!!

197 NJDhockeyfan  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 7:45:20am

re: #195 Killgore Trout

Again with the needles. The 99% sure love their heroin.

It's insulin!

198 iossarian  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 7:45:25am

re: #195 Killgore Trout

Again with the needles. The 99% sure love their heroin.

Hookers and blow are for the 1%.

199 sattv4u2  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 7:45:34am

re: #194 darthstar

I'm still waiting for my Unicorn!

200 kirkspencer  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 7:45:46am

re: #186 NJDhockeyfan

Probably insulin. There been a big problem at these Occupy encampments with diabetics leaving their needles all over the place.
///
‎

There were syringes found. That is all we know.

No, wait. We've got a picture. We've got maybe half a dozen syringes, all capped. We've got a prescription pill bottle, no lid. We've got a bubble pack of the sort OTC meds of various types come in.

And we have zero drug analysis. We don't know if the needles were used, and if they were what they were used for.

Without that, what we have is a smear.

201 sattv4u2  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 7:45:53am

re: #198 iossarian

Hookers and blow are for the 1%.

You say that like it's a bad thing!!

//

202 NJDhockeyfan  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 7:46:34am

'We don't want to look like a homeless camp any longer' - Occupy Eugene says they're making changes

EUGENE, Ore. (KMTR) – Occupy Eugene is cleaning up their campsite following a city council meeting that took place December 14th and granted the group an extension until January 11th.

At the meeting, council agreed that at any given time, if necessary, the extension could be revoked. Occupy Eugene says they are not taking this information lightly.

Keith Hernandez told NewsSource 16 that the peacekeepers are now taking it upon themselves to clear out unwanted substances and weapons. Those who are causing problems or giving Occupy Eugene bad light will be evicted peacefully.

“On the first night, we did some evictions the first night and it went absolutely well, we got six tents out of here and in those six tents, total wise, we found 70 syringes,” he said.

He admitted there were some problems with the camp, including some ‘chop shops,’ that had to go.

203 Gus  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 7:49:12am

re: #190 Decatur Deb

Some merit in the idea. My son suggests that the GOP run her. She's not Romney.

I seriously doubt she would commit such an act of political "treason" nor does she have any interest in running for president again. She'll finish her stint as Secretary of State and move on from there. Mind you I still plan on voting for Obama. However, I'm only doing so because of the alternative of a Republican presidency and one born in this current hyper-right wing environment in the GOP.

204 Obdicut  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 7:49:30am

Once occupy is shut down, nobody will use heroin anymore.

205 NJDhockeyfan  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 7:49:40am

re: #194 darthstar

Fucking retards. Just like Caddell and Schoen.

If you are a Democrat who wants Obama replaced by Hillary, you are a retard!

206 Killgore Trout  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 7:49:55am

re: #197 NJDhockeyfan

It's insulin!

That must be because the hippies are so sweet!

207 kirkspencer  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 7:50:59am

re: #188 NJDhockeyfan

They are Democrats aren't they or are all Dems who appear on Fox instant DINOs?

Both repeatedly supported McCain over Obama. Prior to that they supported Bush. I submit that's pretty much indicated a change in political position.

208 darthstar  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 7:51:35am

re: #191 NJDhockeyfan

Embarcadero Center Threatened to Sue City Over Occupy Encampment

Jesus fucking Christ, it's the Embarcadero of San Francisco. That place has been a homeless hang out for as long as I can remember. In addition to the homeless, the area also has some of the most famous restaurants in San Francisco (Boulevard, for example...good food, but expect to spend about $100 per person). It's also a major junction for MUNI and BART mass transit. And it's full of tourists. It's a perfect place for Occupy. But even after Occupy leaves the homeless will still be there as they were before...and probably still doing drugs.

209 Killgore Trout  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 7:51:44am

re: #202 NJDhockeyfan

in those six tents, total wise, we found 70 syringes,

The diabetes epidemic is out of control!

210 Decatur Deb  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 7:52:21am

re: #203 Gus 802

I seriously doubt she would commit such an act of political "treason" nor does she have any interest in running for president again. She'll finish her stint as Secretary of State and move on from there. Mind you I still plan on voting for Obama. However, I'm only doing so because of the alternative of a Republican presidency and one born in this current hyper-right wing environment in the GOP.

My son and I were (snidely) hoping for a Hillary vs Obama contest in the general. I wouldn't mind a Hillary run in 2016, but she seems uninterested. Warren 2016 would be a hoot.

211 iossarian  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 7:52:40am

re: #209 Killgore Trout

The diabetes epidemic is out of control!

Not to mention the epidemic of rib-tickling allusions to drug use!

212 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 7:52:48am

re: #194 darthstar

OBAMA WAS SUPPOSED TO DO SOMETHING EVIL BUT HE FAILED TO DO EVEN THAT!!

Fucking retards. Just like Caddell and Schoen.

Obama haters still claiming that he is an Israel-hating anti-Semite even though he has DONE NOTHING to deserve that reputation. I think they really, really want him to do something, anything, that could be seen as "anti-Israel" even if it is really not.

213 darthstar  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 7:53:57am

re: #205 NJDhockeyfan

If you are a Democrat who wants Obama replaced by Hillary, you are a retard!

If you take Caddell and Schoen seriously enough to quote them, you are a retard, regardless of your political affiliation.

214 Killgore Trout  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 7:54:39am

London - Report/Vids/Photos - Solidarity with Bradley Manning outside U.S. Embassy

The London gathering heard solidarity statements read from human rights and gay activist Peter Tatchell and recently released British military resister Michael Lyons. Keynote speeches were made by Ben Griffin from "Veterans for Peace", Naomi Colvin from "UK Friends of Bradley Manning" and Ciaron O'Reilly from the "London Catholic Worker". An open platform followed which included speeches by folks from Occupy London SX, "Pay Day", "Global Women's Strike", a British Iraq War veteran, "Pirate Party", "Queer Friends of Bradley Manning", "Oxford Catholic Worker", an Iraqi exile among others.

215 sattv4u2  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 7:55:23am

re: #214 Killgore Trout

"Pirate Party"

Ay, Matey!

216 jaunte  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 7:55:45am

re: #191 NJDhockeyfan

In a letter to Supervisor Elsbernd from Hyatt Regency's general manager David Lewin, the hotel claims "the blight ... is impacting future bookings and the noise that is being generated every night is causing guests to check out and refuse to pay their charges."

I've never tried that one before.

217 NJDhockeyfan  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 7:56:10am

Protesters nudged from park by the city

For 2 1/2 months, the Occupy San Antonio protesters at HemisFair Park discussed the news — from the comfort of their sleeping bags and bedrolls — of police forcefully evicting and arresting occupiers in other major cities.

They prided themselves on being an exception. A sort of unwritten memo of understanding existed between them and police officials. They complied with traffic, noise and parade ordinances while demonstrating against inequality and corporate power.

...Last week, however, city officials began preparing to remove them, citing a string of crime reports and complaints from neighbors. Baum and his officers handed out notices that they were in violation of a no-camping ordinance.

...The Police Department released 10 incident or arrest reports that it linked to Occupy S.A., among them theft, damage to restrooms, a break-in at an unoccupied building and a domestic assault.

“We discovered drug paraphernalia, syringes around the camp area, and that became a concern,” Police Chief William McManus said, although officers were careful to note those items could not be conclusively linked to protesters.

Diabetics have occupied Occupy SA!

218 sattv4u2  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 7:57:05am

re: #216 jaunte

I've never tried that one before.

Suggestion,, don't!! (try it, that is)

219 kirkspencer  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 7:57:35am

Some of the syringes were probably used for illicit drugs.

The problem is that there's no report -- no proof. And until there is, it's a smear.

See, I'm looking at the picture and thinking that some of those syringes look unused. (The type of cap is the reason.) That is what prompted the diabetes thought; well, in conjunction with the fact that at my house the trash bag that broke a few days ago turns out to have left a syringe under the stove. I missed it while cleaning the mess.

So yes, it could be insulin. or heroin. or unused.

You don't know. you're playing to your prejudices.

220 darthstar  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 7:57:35am

re: #216 jaunte

I've never tried that one before.

I like that..."You can't charge me for the things I took from the mini-bar! There's a smell of pachouli in the air!"

221 Killgore Trout  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 7:57:36am

re: #215 sattv4u2

"Pirate Party"

Ay, Matey!

...And Catholic Worker again. They've been showing up a lot lately.

222 NJDhockeyfan  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 7:58:33am

re: #213 darthstar

If you take Caddell and Schoen seriously enough to quote them, you are a retard, regardless of your political affiliation.

That must make everyone at Politico a retard. That frame of mind is soooo progressive, thanks!

223 darthstar  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 7:59:22am

re: #222 NJDhockeyfan

That must make everyone at Politico a retard. That frame of mind is sooo progressive, thanks!

Yeah, I suppose it does.

224 sattv4u2  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 8:00:26am

re: #221 Killgore Trout

...And Catholic Worker again. They've been showing up a lot lately.

eh,,,, [Link: londoncatholicworker.org...]

We've got two forthcoming events that you might be interested in...
Free Bradley Manning! End the wars!

Anti-nuclear resistance celebration and planning

225 darthstar  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 8:00:41am

re: #221 Killgore Trout

...And Catholic Worker again. They've been showing up a lot lately.

Fucking Pope and his druggie buddies.

226 sattv4u2  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 8:01:44am

re: #225 darthstar

Fucking Pope and his druggie buddies.

shhhh, he hides his stash in his Mitre!!!

227 NJDhockeyfan  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 8:01:56am

re: #223 darthstar

Yeah, I suppose it does.

BTW...I thought calling people retards was verboten here.

228 iossarian  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 8:01:58am

re: #225 darthstar

Fucking Pope and his druggie buddies.

No, no. Democrats are always Democrats, but Catholics are not always Catholics.

You know that.

229 NJDhockeyfan  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 8:02:36am

re: #225 darthstar

Fucking Pope and his druggie buddies.

I hope they pick up their syringes.

230 jaunte  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 8:02:49am

re: #214 Killgore Trout

A new petition, "We'll go to jail with Bradley Manning" failed to attract any signers.

231 darthstar  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 8:04:33am

Here...this will make it all okay.

Time to head out.

232 Killgore Trout  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 8:04:51am

re: #230 jaunte

A new petition, "We'll go to jail with Bradley Manning" failed to attract any signers.

First lol of the morning. Thanks. I needed that.

233 Daniel Ballard  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 8:05:58am

Interesting that LAPD is now arresting people for peaceful protest on the sidewalk at City Hall. All it takes is to put your sign or a balloon on the fence, and you too might enjoy the hospitality of LA County jail. Courts have ruled sidewalks as specifically legal for protests.

234 NJDhockeyfan  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 8:11:17am

The Company Ron Paul Keeps

235 EdDantes  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 8:13:02am

re: #234 NJDhockeyfan

As if we needed more.

236 sattv4u2  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 8:13:34am

re: #233 Rightwingconspirator

Interesting that LAPD is now arresting people for peaceful protest on the sidewalk at City Hall. All it takes is to put your sign or a balloon on the fence, and you too can enjoy the hospitality of LA County jail. Courts have ruled sidewalks as specifically legal for protests.

As they should be

UNLESS,,,, they are blocking people from going about their business and thats why there are arrests (speculating)

237 sattv4u2  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 8:14:55am

re: #234 NJDhockeyfan

The Company Ron Paul Keeps

The Republican Jewish Coalition announced this month that congressman Ron Paul would not be among the six guests invited to participate in its Republican Presidential Candidates Forum. “He’s just so far outside of the mainstream of the Republican party and this organization,” said Matt Brooks, executive director of the RJC, adding that the group “rejects his misguided and extreme views

Thank you for the sanity break, RJC!

238 sattv4u2  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 8:17:23am

If anyone's interested, there's about to be a job opening for a Fed Ex driver!!
[Link: www.dailymail.co.uk...]

Youtube Video
239 NJDhockeyfan  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 8:17:35am

re: #237 sattv4u2

The Republican Jewish Coalition announced this month that congressman Ron Paul would not be among the six guests invited to participate in its Republican Presidential Candidates Forum. “He’s just so far outside of the mainstream of the Republican party and this organization,” said Matt Brooks, executive director of the RJC, adding that the group “rejects his misguided and extreme views

Thank you for the sanity break, RJC!

This article if full of exposing Ron Paul's insane newsletters...

“Order was only restored in L.A. when it came time for the blacks to pick up their welfare checks,” read a typical article from the June 1992 “Special Issue on Racial Terrorism,” a supplement to the Ron Paul Political Report. Racial apocalypse was the most persistent theme of the newsletters; a 1990 issue warned of “The Coming Race War,” and an article the following year about disturbances in the Adams Morgan neighborhood of Washington, D.C., was entitled “Animals Take Over the D.C. Zoo.” Paul alleged that Martin Luther King Jr., “the world-class philanderer who beat up his paramours,” had also “seduced underage girls and boys.” The man who would later proclaim King a “hero” attacked Ronald Reagan for signing legislation creating the federal holiday in his name, complaining, “We can thank him for our annual Hate Whitey Day.”

No conspiracy theory was too outlandish for Paul’s endorsement. One newsletter reported on the heretofore unknown phenomenon of “Needlin’,” in which “gangs of black girls between the ages of 12 and 14” roamed the streets of New York and injected white women with possibly HIV-infected syringes. Another newsletter warned that “the AIDS patient” should not be allowed to eat in restaurants because “AIDS can be transmitted by saliva,” a strange claim for a physician to make.

240 Renaissance_Man  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 8:17:56am

re: #237 sattv4u2

The Republican Jewish Coalition announced this month that congressman Ron Paul would not be among the six guests invited to participate in its Republican Presidential Candidates Forum. “He’s just so far outside of the mainstream of the Republican party and this organization,” said Matt Brooks, executive director of the RJC, adding that the group “rejects his misguided and extreme views

Thank you for the sanity break, RJC!

That might have been true once, but his economic views are now basically the mainstream Republican views. Any party that endorses Ryanomics has to be considered to have misguided and extreme views.

241 EdDantes  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 8:19:23am

re: #237 sattv4u2

Ron Paul is an anti-semite. I would vote for Obama before I would vote for Paul.

242 iossarian  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 8:19:57am

re: #240 Renaissance_Man

That might have been true once, but his economic views are now basically the mainstream Republican views. Any party that endorses Ryanomics has to be considered to have misguided and extreme views.

It should also be pointed out that the scare-mongering against various minority groups continues unabated, though the specific targets and accusations change.

243 sattv4u2  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 8:20:26am

re: #241 EdDantes

Ron Paul is an anti-semite. I would vote for Obama before I would vote for Paul.

ditto

244 Killgore Trout  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 8:20:36am

re: #233 Rightwingconspirator

Interesting that LAPD is now arresting people for peaceful protest on the sidewalk at City Hall. All it takes is to put your sign or a balloon on the fence, and you too can enjoy the hospitality of LA County jail. Courts have ruled sidewalks as specifically legal for protests.

I see there's also talk of a new law to prevent protests at the port.
Oakland may block port protests
This is why the attitude and tactics of the protests has been counterproductive. Even in cites that have tried to be supportive and accommodating the protesters have abused the hospitality of host cities. Violent protests, noise, unsanitary conditions, attacking police officers and park workers, damaging local businesses, rape, crime, drug overdoses, vandalism, racking up huge bills for police overtime and trashing the parks.
The cities are sick of it and can't afford to continue dealing with this nonsense. Protesters are just going to continue to abuse their privileges.

245 NJDhockeyfan  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 8:21:04am

re: #241 EdDantes

Ron Paul is an anti-semite. I would vote for Obama before I would vote for Paul.

I don't agree with Obama on a lot of issues but Ron Paul in the White House is horrifying to picture.

246 sattv4u2  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 8:21:45am

re: #244 Killgore Trout

Violent protests, noise, unsanitary conditions, attacking police officers and park workers, damaging local businesses, rape, crime, drug overdoses, vandalism

Just a few misguided Yutes!

247 NJDhockeyfan  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 8:23:15am

re: #244 Killgore Trout

I see there's also talk of a new law to prevent protests at the port.
Oakland may block port protests
This is why the attitude and tactics of the protests has been counterproductive. Even in cites that have tried to be supportive and accommodating the protesters have abused the hospitality of host cities. Violent protests, noise, unsanitary conditions, attacking police officers and park workers, damaging local businesses, rape, crime, drug overdoses, vandalism, racking up huge bills for police overtime and trashing the parks.
The cities are sick of it and can't afford to continue dealing with this nonsense. Protesters are just going to continue to abuse their privileges.

My nephew is a cop in NYC and is enjoying all the overtime he's getting right now.

248 sattv4u2  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 8:23:21am

re: #241 EdDantes

re: #245 NJDhockeyfan

I don't agree with Obama on a lot of issues but Ron Paul in the White House is horrifying to picture.

I'll go even further
If Paul were to get the nod, I would donate to the Obama campaign and work tirelessly for his re-election

(ouch ,,, I hurt myself saying that!!!) ((// the last sentence))

249 iossarian  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 8:24:10am

I always find it disheartening that, when various Republicans' homophobia is detailed, although Republican voters are quick to distance themselves from the homophobia itself, they are less keen to adopt a stance of "I would vote for Obama ahead of this candidate due to his or her homophobia".

So it is very refreshing to see that this doesn't carry over to Ron Paul.

250 NJDhockeyfan  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 8:24:14am

re: #246 sattv4u2

Violent protests, noise, unsanitary conditions, attacking police officers and park workers, damaging local businesses, rape, crime, drug overdoses, vandalism

Just a few misguided Yutes!

It's just one two five [fill in the blank]!

251 NJDhockeyfan  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 8:26:26am

re: #249 iossarian

I always find it disheartening that, when various Republicans' homophobia is detailed, although Republican voters are quick to distance themselves from the homophobia itself, they are less keen to adopt a stance of "I would vote for Obama ahead of this candidate due to his or her homophobia".

So it is very refreshing to see that this doesn't carry over to Ron Paul.

Ron Paul may have an R by his name but his supporters are all over the political spectrum.

252 EdDantes  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 8:26:35am

re: #248 sattv4u2

re: #245 NJDhockeyfan

I'll go even further
If Paul were to get the nod, I would donate to the Obama campaign and work tirelessly for his re-election

(ouch ,,, I hurt myself saying that!!!) ((// the last sentence))

I'll go further. I would ride Obama like a big boy before I would vote Ron Paul.

253 sattv4u2  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 8:28:49am

re: #252 EdDantes

I'll go further. I would ride Obama like a big boy before I would vote Ron Paul.

umm,, TMI ,, and thanks a pant load for the disturbing mental picture!!!
//

254 Killgore Trout  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 8:29:01am

Dow +271
Nice!

255 sattv4u2  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 8:32:43am

re: #249 iossarian

I always find it disheartening that, when various Republicans' homophobia is detailed, although Republican voters are quick to distance themselves from the homophobia itself, they are less keen to adopt a stance of "I would vote for Obama ahead of this candidate due to his or her homophobia".

So it is very refreshing to see that this doesn't carry over to Ron Paul.

My disgust with anyone who displays homophobia (or racism, or religious intolerance, or,,,,) regardless of what letter precedes their name is THE deal breaker for me

I can disagree with someone on "a" policy issue yet still back them in an election, but the above ,,, nuh uh!

256 NJDhockeyfan  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 8:33:14am

London is helping out diabetics with a place to throw away their needles...

Occupy London: ‘Sharp Bins’ For Junkie Needles Installed at St Paul's

Drug use at the St Paul's protest camp has escalated to the point that local authorities have installed containers for the safe disposal of syringe needles.

The City of London Corporation has said that "sharp bins" have been put in place at the site after police found drug paraphernalia, including needles, littered around the area.

The site has also been desecrated by vandalism and human waste since anti-capitalism protesters started camping outside St Paul's on 15 Oct. The battle to evict the protest camp will begin on 19 Dec.

The corporation, the local authority which runs the Square Mile, has expressed its concern over the site, describing it as a "health hazard" and "a magnet for very vulnerable people", including those with HIV or attracted by the free food and shelter.

257 iossarian  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 8:33:56am

re: #255 sattv4u2

My disgust with anyone who displays homophobia (or racism, or religious intolerance, or,,,) regardless of what letter precedes their name is THE deal breaker for me

I can disagree with someone on "a" policy issue yet still back them in an election, but the above ,,, nuh uh!

So are there any Republican presidential candidates who you feel you could vote for in the general?

258 sattv4u2  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 8:34:00am

re: #254 Killgore Trout

Dow +271
Nice!

Kim Jong Un decided to sell off his dads porn collection!

259 sattv4u2  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 8:37:33am

re: #257 iossarian

So are there any Republican presidential candidates who you feel you could vote for in the general?

Truth be told, I haven't been following it that closely. Candidates in primaries do what candidates in primaries always do,,,, pander to whatever group they happen to be in front of at any given moment

THAT , and the fact that I HATE that the process starts earlier and earlier each cycle. I don't give two rats asses what they do on their own time, but I don't want/need it front and center 24 months prior to a general election

As always, the "also rans" won't be there come the summer, so why waste my efforts in hearing them flopping around for 18 months

260 iossarian  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 8:38:52am

re: #259 sattv4u2

Truth be told, I haven't been following it that closely. candidates in primaries do what candidates in primaries always do,,, pander to whatever group they happen to be in front of at any given moment

So pandering to bigots is OK (or at least not enough to disqualify a candidate from your consideration)?

261 sattv4u2  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 8:40:56am

re: #260 iossarian

So pandering to bigots is OK (or at least not enough to disqualify a candidate from your consideration)?

Yeah ,, thats exactly what I said

(as opposed to [Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

{sigh}

262 sattv4u2  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 8:42:18am

re: #260 iossarian

So pandering to bigots is OK (or at least not enough to disqualify a candidate from your consideration)?

re: #261 sattv4u2

let me be more clear, because I guess you didn't understand it the 1st time

My disgust with anyone who displays homophobia (or racism, or religious intolerance, or,,,) regardless of what letter precedes their name is THE deal breaker for me

263 NJDhockeyfan  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 8:45:56am

It's nice to see our government representatives breaking news records...

It's official: Congress at record low

264 allegro  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 8:46:25am

re: #262 sattv4u2

re: #261 sattv4u2

let me be more clear, because I guess you didn't understand it the 1st time

My disgust with anyone who displays homophobia (or racism, or religious intolerance, or,,,) regardless of what letter precedes their name is THE deal breaker for me

Your dealbreakers are clearly stated party platforms, loudly and frequently supported by all of the contenders for the nomination. You really don't have to be paying close attention since it's seriously "in your face."

265 iossarian  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 8:47:09am

re: #262 sattv4u2

re: #261 sattv4u2

let me be more clear, because I guess you didn't understand it the 1st time

My disgust with anyone who displays homophobia (or racism, or religious intolerance, or,,,) regardless of what letter precedes their name is THE deal breaker for me

All well and good, but then why did you say:

re: #259 sattv4u2

Truth be told, I haven't been following it that closely. candidates in primaries do what candidates in primaries always do,,, pander to whatever group they happen to be in front of at any given moment

?

If your disgust is so strong, why dismiss what's going on in the primaries as pandering?

266 AK-47%  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 8:49:45am

Persons are free to hold whatever private views they have about gays and homosexuality. But if they are against granting all people -including gays - equal rights before the law, I will not vote for them.

267 sattv4u2  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 8:50:27am

re: #265 iossarian

I didn't dismiss it. I understand it. Doesn't mean I like it. Doesn't mean I have to pay attention to it

This isn't my 1st rodeo

268 iossarian  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 8:51:11am

re: #267 sattv4u2

I didn't dismiss it. I understand it. Doesn't mean I like it. Doesn't mean I have to pah attention to it

This isn't my 1st rodeo

So you would vote for someone who had, for example, said that gay people should not have the same rights (to marriage) as straight people?

269 Interesting Times in Benghazi  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 8:56:08am

re: #268 iossarian

So you would vote for someone who had, for example, said that gay people should not have the same rights (to marriage) as straight people?

But, but, but, Obama was against gay marriage tooo...

Seriously, though, he said that in 2008, and his actions in office since have been the opposite (e.g. repealing DADT, declaring DOMA would no longer be defended). Contrast that with GOP leadership, like Boehner, wasting taxpayer money to defend that piece of bigotry (yes, I know it came in under Clinton - point is, today's Democrats want to get rid of it, today's GOPers don't).

270 sattv4u2  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 8:56:28am

re: #268 iossarian

So you would vote for someone who had, for example, said that

{sigh}

My disgust with anyone who displays homophobia ,,,is THE deal breaker for me

Now ,,, IF that stance (gay people should not have the same rights (to marriage) as straight people) was due to homophobia, she/he doesn't get my nod

If, however (as Ralphie stated) it's that persons personal belief but wouldn't propose or back legislation denying those rights, and I agreed with most everything else on her/his platform,.,,, I'd still consider them (while looking for a better alternative)

271 Obdicut  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 8:57:21am

re: #270 sattv4u2

So you won't vote for any mainstream GOP presidential candidate, then?

They all have proposed or backed legislation denying those rights.

272 sattv4u2  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 8:57:52am

re: #269 publicityStunted

Seriously, though, he said that in 2008

Exactly ,,, again, as Ralphie stated,,, private views and public policy CAN be different

273 sattv4u2  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 8:58:22am

re: #270 sattv4u2

I have no idea why that came out all italics

274 iossarian  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 8:59:15am

re: #270 sattv4u2

{sigh}

My disgust with anyone who displays homophobia ,,,is THE deal breaker for me

Now ,,, IF that stance (gay people should not have the same rights (to marriage) as straight people) was due to homophobia, she/he doesn't get my nod

What other reasons than homophobia can a person have, for thinking that a gay person does not deserve the same rights as a straight person?

275 Interesting Times in Benghazi  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 9:00:14am

re: #272 sattv4u2

Seriously, though, he said that in 2008

Exactly ,,, again, as Ralphie stated,,, private views and public policy CAN be different

But they aren't in the GOP's case. Boehner is wasting taxpayer money to defend bigoted legislation.

276 Varek Raith  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 9:02:41am

Let's see.
When the 2010 GOP was elected we all heard how they were laser focused on jobs.
What did we get?
Nothing but SoCon bullshit legislation. Jobs? Yeah right.
I'd expect the same from a GOP PotUS.

277 sattv4u2  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 9:03:19am

re: #271 Obdicut

So you won't vote for any mainstream GOP presidential candidate, then?

They all have proposed or backed legislation denying those rights.

works for me!
You'll notice, I have never backed/ endorsed/ defended a single person in this race to date. Once I decide to start paying attention (probably late spring/ early summer for the reasons detailed above) I'll find out what they survivors think/say/do/propose/beleive

For some reason, some here think I'm a knee jerk righty! I have no problem sitting out an election.

278 sattv4u2  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 9:04:31am

re: #274 iossarian

What other reasons than homophobia can a person have, for thinking that a gay person does not deserve the same rights as a straight person?

Every person that doesn't think same sex couples should marry is a homophobe?

279 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 9:04:49am

re: #276 Varek Raith

Let's see.
When the 2010 GOP was elected we all heard how they were laser focused on jobs.
What did we get?
Nothing but SoCon bullshit legislation. Jobs? Yeah right.
I'd expect the same from a GOP PotUS.

"Fixing the economy" in the form of a $1,000 tax increase for the lowest-earning tax brackets.

spit

280 iossarian  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 9:05:15am

re: #278 sattv4u2

Every person that doesn't think same sex couples should marry is a homophobe?

Well, that depends. Is everyone who thinks that Jewish couples shouldn't be able to adopt an anti-semite?

281 allegro  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 9:06:27am

re: #278 sattv4u2

Every person that doesn't think same sex couples should marry is a homophobe?

Since there is no rational argument to the contrary, I believe the answer to that is a firm "yes."

282 sattv4u2  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 9:06:44am

re: #280 iossarian

Well, that depends. Is everyone who thinks that Jewish couples shouldn't be able to adopt an anti-semite?

You're the one that made it all encompassing

283 Varek Raith  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 9:06:58am

re: #279 Alouette

"Fixing the economy" in the form of a $1,000 tax increase for the lowest-earning tax brackets.

spit

You should go to Washington.
And take your cane.
That'll learn em!
:)

284 sattv4u2  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 9:07:34am

re: #283 Varek Raith

You should go to Washington.
And take your cane.
That'll learn em!
:)

and her spit!

285 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 9:08:02am

re: #283 Varek Raith

You should go to Washington.
And take your cane.
That'll learn em!
:)

Fear the Babushka!

286 iossarian  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 9:08:04am

re: #282 sattv4u2

You're the one that made it all encompassing

Why not answer the question? Is it the case that anyone who believes that Jewish couples should be forbidden from adopting, is an anti-semite?

287 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 9:08:33am

re: #286 iossarian

Why not answer the question? Is it the case that anyone who believes that Jewish couples should be forbidden from adopting, is an anti-semite?

What is this non-sequitur?

288 sattv4u2  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 9:08:44am

re: #281 allegro

Since there is no rational argument to the contrary, I believe the answer that that is a firm "yes."

You don't know anyone who is opposed to same sex marriage but is not a "homophobe"?

289 sattv4u2  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 9:09:06am

re: #287 Alouette

What is this non-sequitur?

I have no clue
BUT ,, I must answer the question!!
{sigh}

290 allegro  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 9:09:07am

re: #288 sattv4u2

You don't know anyone who is opposed to same sex marriage but is not a "homophobe"?

I do not. Do you?

291 iossarian  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 9:10:14am

re: #287 Alouette

What is this non-sequitur?

Apparently there are people who think that gay couples should not be allowed to adopt, but who are not "homophobes".

I am asking whether there can be people who think that Jewish couples should not be allowed to adopt, but who are not "anti-semites".

I am trying to understand what the definition of these words is.

292 sattv4u2  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 9:10:46am

re: #290 allegro

I do not. Do you?

Yes,, several people ,, INCLUDING two who are gay

((I'll have to remember to ask them why ,, but both declined invites to a same sex wedding I attended of mutual friends stating that they were against the idea))

293 kirkspencer  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 9:12:12am

re: #276 Varek Raith

Let's see.
When the 2010 GOP was elected we all heard how they were laser focused on jobs.
What did we get?
Nothing but SoCon bullshit legislation. Jobs? Yeah right.
I'd expect the same from a GOP PotUS.

Actually, the laser focus on jobs wasn't their first priority.

The first priority was to stop any legislation would help Obama serve a second term. McConnell was stupid enough to say that point blank, while Boehner was more circumspect.

I think they've been penny wise and pound foolish in their acts in that regard, but they've certainly stuck as hard to the priority as they could.

294 sattv4u2  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 9:13:23am

BBIAB ,,, conference call with our friends "across the pond"

295 KronoGhazi  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 9:13:30am

re: #278 sattv4u2

Every person that doesn't think same sex couples should marry is a homophobe?

How could they not be?

296 allegro  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 9:14:26am

re: #292 sattv4u2

Yes,, several people ,, INCLUDING two who are gay

((I'll have to remember to ask them why ,, but both declined invites to a same sex wedding I attended mutual friends stating that they were against the idea))

I do think to ask why. Every time the answer has begun "I don't hate gays but..." then they tell me about the "gay agenda" and move on to "abominations" and that they are just icky. A lot of them have gay friends too, they tell me.

Yeah, no...

297 BishopX  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 9:14:42am

re: #295 BigPapa

To play the devils advocate, they could be some kind of radical who is vehemently against marriage. If you don't want anyone to get married than you wouldn't want gay people to get married.

298 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 9:16:11am

re: #291 iossarian

Apparently there are people who think that gay couples should not be allowed to adopt, but who are not "homophobes".

I am asking whether there can be people who think that Jewish couples should not be allowed to adopt, but who are not "anti-semites".

I am trying to understand what the definition of these words is.

I think it would be the same as people who think that Black couples should not be allowed to adopt ("white babies") but who are not "racist"

299 KronoGhazi  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 9:20:29am

re: #297 BishopX

To play the devils advocate, they could be some kind of radical who is vehemently against marriage. If you don't want anyone to get married than you wouldn't want gay people to get married.

Yeah, I guess. I used to be one who was against same sex marriage, and atheist, but told myself I wasn't a homophobe. But after really thinking it through.... there is no reason to be against it unless you have an issue with homosexuality.

So I was curious as to what Satt's reason was. And partially trying out the Sattian 'leading question' method on him.

300 iossarian  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 9:22:21am

re: #292 sattv4u2

Yes,, several people ,, INCLUDING two who are gay

To be fair, this is an interesting example, and one where I suppose you could withhold the homophobia label (though I would note that it doesn't apply to any of the GOP presidential candidates, at least as far as we know...)

I do think that advocating for the denial of a certain right for a group of people of which you are a member is a bit odd, especially when there are plenty of members of the group who seem to want that right quite badly.

301 sattv4u2  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 9:22:39am

re: #299 BigPapa

So I was curious as to what Satt's reason was.

umm,,, ,errrr,,, I never stated I was against same sex marriages

(just peeked in while on conference call hold ,,,, nice music, btw)

302 Shropshire_Slasher  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 9:26:55am

re: #301 sattv4u2

The intimidation tactics are quite entertaining.

303 KronoGhazi  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 9:28:37am

re: #301 sattv4u2

umm,,, ,errr,,, I never stated I was against same sex marriages

I know. You're answering a question I did not ask or a statement I did not make.

You asked:

Every person that doesn't think same sex couples should marry is a homophobe?

I asked:

How could they not be?

I appears you think people can be against same sex marriage and not be homophobic. Please explain.

304 RanchTooth  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 9:29:13am

Bob "The Birther" Vander Plaats endorses Santorum. Who's shocked?

Two weeks before the Republican nominating contest opens at the Iowa caucuses, former Senator Rick Santorum of Pennsylvania has won a highly coveted endorsement from one of the state’s social conservative leaders.

Bob Vander Plaats, who has sought to put his imprint on the Republican presidential race for months, announced Tuesday that he would support Mr. Santorum. Mr. Vander Plaats and other evangelical Christians have talked openly about their struggle to unite behind one candidate, but he urged others to follow his lead.

305 KronoGhazi  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 9:29:37am

re: #302 Shropshire_Slasher

The intimidation tactics are quite entertaining.

Whose intimidation tactics?

306 allegro  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 9:32:20am

re: #300 iossarian

To be fair, this is an interesting example, and one where I suppose you could withhold the homophobia label (though I would note that it doesn't apply to any of the GOP presidential candidates, at least as far as we know...)

I do think that advocating for the denial of a certain right for a group of people of which you are a member is a bit odd, especially when there are plenty of members of the group who seem to want that right quite badly.

I'm sure there are quite a number of closeted gays who speak to deny those rights to cover their own homosexuality and possibly as an expression of self-hatred/disgust as a result of lifetimes of being told what evil abominations they are. We have seen it with some frequency in the Republican party. This is homophobia writ large... and tragic.

For those gays who are open, I have never seen any who say that they are actively against full marriage rights, though there are certainly some for whom it is not a driving issue.

307 sattv4u2  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 9:32:35am

re: #303 BigPapa

Please explain.

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

Kristen and Fred are going to be very surprised that they are homophobic

308 sattv4u2  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 9:33:56am

AND ,,, the conference call starts (only 33 minutes late ,, those whacky Brits!!))

BBIAB

309 Obdicut  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 9:34:02am

re: #307 sattv4u2

Do you think that because you're a member of a group, you can't be antagonistic towards that group?

There are anti-semitic Jews, blacks who are bigoted against blacks, etc. etc.

What is their reason for thinking gay people shouldn't have the right to get married?

310 BARACK THE VOTE  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 9:34:14am

re: #306 allegro

I'm sure there are quite a number of closeted gays who speak to deny those rights to cover their own homosexuality and possibly as an expression of self-hatred/disgust as a result of lifetimes of being told what evil abominations they are. We have seen it with some frequency in the Republican party. This is homophobia writ large... and tragic.

For those gays who are open, I have never seen any who say that they are actively against full marriage rights, though there are certainly some for whom it is not a driving issue.

There's also the fact that in any oppressed group, there are some who side consciously or not with the oppressors and seek to ingratiate themselves with them.

311 Obdicut  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 9:35:15am

I know lots and lots and lots and lots of gay people.

Some of them think marriage isn't an important right. Some of them think that marriage should be redefined and changed to civil unions for everyone.

None of them think that gay people shouldn't have the right to get married if straight people do.

312 KronoGhazi  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 9:38:08am

re: #307 sattv4u2

Please explain.

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

Kristen and Fred are going to be very surprised that they are homophobic

That wasn't even close to an explanation.

313 iossarian  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 9:38:31am

re: #311 Obdicut

I know lots and lots and lots and lots of gay people.

Some of them think marriage isn't an important right. Some of them think that marriage should be redefined and changed to civil unions for everyone.

None of them think that gay people shouldn't have the right to get married if straight people do.

I do know one gay person who might fall into that category - he is a member of the clergy so there are a lot of conflicting demands there.

I also happen to know several gay clergy members who are pro-gay marriage. I think for this one guy it's the difficulty of reconciling tradition with contemporary social norms that leads to the conflict.

File it under the "people are complicated" heading.

314 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 9:39:13am

re: #269 publicityStunted

Seriously, though, he said that in 2008, and his actions in office since have been the opposite (e.g. repealing DADT, declaring DOMA would no longer be defended). Contrast that with GOP leadership, like Boehner, wasting taxpayer money to defend that piece of bigotry (yes, I know it came in under Clinton - point is, today's Democrats want to get rid of it, today's GOPers don't).

He said that in 2008 and I voted for him anyway. So did a hell of a lot of other people. Hell, IIRC, he said that on RELIGIOUS grounds, he didn't think gay folks should get married.

315 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 9:41:31am

re: #277 sattv4u2

works for me!
You'll notice, I have never backed/ endorsed/ defended a single person in this race to date. Once I decide to start paying attention (probably late spring/ early summer for the reasons detailed above) I'll find out what they survivors think/say/do/propose/beleive

For some reason, some here think I'm a knee jerk righty! I have no problem sitting out an election.

Can I comment, as a committed Democrat--or should that be a Democrat who should be committed--that I'm not having fun reading the threads where we corner a Republican and demand that they explain themselves?

316 allegro  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 9:42:00am

re: #314 SanFranciscoZionist

He said that in 2008 and I voted for him anyway. So did a hell of a lot of other people. Hell, IIRC, he said that on RELIGIOUS grounds, he didn't think gay folks should get married.

When both viable candidates for an office claim to hold the same view on a topic, it rather negates the topic from being a consideration at all.

317 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 9:42:35am

re: #291 iossarian

Apparently there are people who think that gay couples should not be allowed to adopt, but who are not "homophobes".

I am asking whether there can be people who think that Jewish couples should not be allowed to adopt, but who are not "anti-semites".

I am trying to understand what the definition of these words is.

Best not to bring anti-Semitism into it. That seems to start fights and gales of giggles around here these days.

318 Obdicut  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 9:42:52am

re: #313 iossarian

I'm not doubting the existince of gay people who don't want gay people to have equal rights with straight people, but saying that, indeed, they're likely to have a 'complicated' story.

I do have one friend who, although he admitted he was gay, attempted to climb back into the closet, went to ex-gay therapy, then dropped all his friends and moved, before coming out of the closet again later. So for a certain period of his time, he was a gay man who didn't want equal rights for gay men, but he was rather clearly homophobic at the same time, in a sad, painful way.

He's doing good now, though.

319 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 9:43:22am

re: #302 Shropshire_Slasher

The intimidation tactics are quite entertaining.

No. They're not.

320 Obdicut  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 9:43:38am

re: #315 SanFranciscoZionist

Can I comment, as a committed Democrat--or should that be a Democrat who should be committed--that I'm not having fun reading the threads where we corner a Republican and demand that they explain themselves?

Don't worry, it's Satt. He's not gong to wind up explaining himself.

321 BARACK THE VOTE  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 9:44:08am

re: #315 SanFranciscoZionist

Can I comment, as a committed Democrat--or should that be a Democrat who should be committed--that I'm not having fun reading the threads where we corner a Republican and demand that they explain themselves?

It makes a change from the old ones where any liberal would be cornered, and even saying you were considering voting for Obama would get you downdinged to heck.

Of course, that was mostly before I joined here.

322 iossarian  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 9:44:56am

re: #317 SanFranciscoZionist

Best not to bring anti-Semitism into it. That seems to start fights and gales of giggles around here these days.

I don't like to use anti-Semitism as a debating point, but I do find it objectionable that people wail about Ron Paul's bigotry ("I would never vote for him, I would even vote for Obama instead") while glossing over the attempts by the GOP to criminalize homosexuality.

323 Renaissance_Man  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 9:45:01am

re: #321 iceweasel

It makes a change from the old ones where any liberal would be cornered, and even saying you were considering voting for Obama would get you downdinged to heck.

Of course, that was mostly before I joined here.

Change is not always for the better.

324 allegro  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 9:45:33am

re: #321 iceweasel

It makes a change from the old ones where any liberal would be cornered, and even saying you were considering voting for Obama would get you downdinged to heck.

Of course, that was mostly before I joined here.

I thought we were just having a discussion on a hot contemporary topic.

325 BARACK THE VOTE  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 9:46:19am

re: #324 allegro

I thought we were just having a discussion on a hot contemporary topic.

So did I !

326 KronoGhazi  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 9:48:16am

re: #315 SanFranciscoZionist

Can I comment, as a committed Democrat--or should that be a Democrat who should be committed--that I'm not having fun reading the threads where we corner a Republican and demand that they explain themselves?

I merely asked a question because Satt seemed to have an opinion that I used to have, as to what the rationale for that opinion was.

I wasn't cornering anybody, but I guess if you're trying to have a real conversation with Satt, it may look that way. But the attempt was made.

327 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 9:48:54am

re: #316 allegro

When both viable candidates for an office claim to hold the same view on a topic, it rather negates the topic from being a consideration at all.

Hmmm. I took a chance on a guy who said marriage was between a man and a woman, and now he's 'working on it'. Maybe Republicans figure they can get Romney to 'work on it' too.

328 iossarian  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 9:49:43am

re: #327 SanFranciscoZionist

Hmmm. I took a chance on a guy who said marriage was between a man and a woman, and now he's 'working on it'. Maybe Republicans figure they can get Romney to 'work on it' too.

I award you 100 tongue-in-cheek points.

329 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 9:49:53am

re: #320 Obdicut

Don't worry, it's Satt. He's not gong to wind up explaining himself.

This is only going to get more unpleasant if any poor soul here admits to supporting whoever emerges from the GOP nomination alive.

330 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 9:50:31am

re: #321 iceweasel

It makes a change from the old ones where any liberal would be cornered, and even saying you were considering voting for Obama would get you downdinged to heck.

Of course, that was mostly before I joined here.

Yeah, I was here for some of it, was in fact downdinged for voting Obama, and it sucked. For some reason, I don't find it fun to see it happening again.

331 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 9:51:15am

re: #322 iossarian

I don't like to use anti-Semitism as a debating point, but I do find it objectionable that people wail about Ron Paul's bigotry ("I would never vote for him, I would even vote for Obama instead") while glossing over the attempts by the GOP to criminalize homosexuality.

Then don't use anti-Semitism as a debating point.

332 Eventual Carrion  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 9:51:40am

re: #217 NJDhockeyfan

Protesters nudged from park by the city

Diabetics have occupied Occupy SA!

Maybe they should switch to snorting crank off a male prostitutes belly. Or dress up in a diaper and do whatever repubs in that disguise (and get an ovation upon returning to work). Or maybe their rent boy has some stash he can share.

333 Obdicut  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 9:52:12am

re: #329 SanFranciscoZionist

This is only going to get more unpleasant if any poor soul here admits to supporting whoever emerges from the GOP nomination alive.

Sure. But isn't that more about the positions of the people running for the nomination, and what someone would be endorsing by supporting them?

334 Eventual Carrion  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 9:52:28am

re: #209 Killgore Trout

The diabetes epidemic is out of control!

Sadly it is.

335 Obdicut  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 9:53:27am

re: #331 SanFranciscoZionist

Then don't use anti-Semitism as a debating point.

It was a perfectly good analogy-- especially after some state (I forget which) just passed a law allowing adoption panels to take religion into account when disallowing an adoption.

I'm not really getting why you think the analogy was inappropriate.

336 iossarian  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 9:54:17am

re: #330 SanFranciscoZionist

Yeah, I was here for some of it, was in fact downdinged for voting Obama, and it sucked. For some reason, I don't find it fun to see it happening again.

There is a difference, though. You stated clearly that you were voting for Obama, and if someone had asked you why you were voting for him, I reckon you would have given a pretty coherent answer.

In contrast, it's virtually impossible to get anyone on here now to admit that they're going to vote Republican, or even to offer any kind of defense of a Republican vote.

If someone gives me an honest answer as to why they're voting GOP, I'm happy to leave it at that, as long as it acknowledges the various social and fiscal policies that all the current presidential candidates endorse.

337 iossarian  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 9:54:57am

re: #335 Obdicut

It was a perfectly good analogy-- especially after some state (I forget which) just passed a law allowing adoption panels to take religion into account when disallowing an adoption.

I'm not really getting why you think the analogy was inappropriate.

Thank you. I realize it's a sensitive topic but I thought the analogy, in this case, was fair.

338 iossarian  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 9:56:58am

OK. Time for the descent into hell, aka the pre-Christmas Post Office run.

Back MUCH later.

339 allegro  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 9:57:29am

re: #333 Obdicut

Sure. But isn't that more about the positions of the people running for the nomination, and what someone would be endorsing by supporting them?

Now, see, that's the discussion I thought we were having. I saw no intimidation efforts or "demands." Any time someone here states a belief or position, questions about that belief or position are likely to follow along with the questioners' support of their positions. It's called a debate. Isn't that what this blog is actually about?

340 Eventual Carrion  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 9:58:18am

re: #250 NJDhockeyfan

It's just one two five [fill in the blank]!

Just a lone wolf. Like doctor killers and clinic bombers, right?

341 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 10:03:39am

re: #336 iossarian

In contrast, it's virtually impossible to get anyone on here now to admit that they're going to vote Republican, or even to offer any kind of defense of a Republican vote.

There's a reason for that, at this point.

I'm going upstairs. I've said my piece.

342 Obdicut  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 10:06:53am

re: #341 SanFranciscoZionist

But again, isn't the reason more the policies and actions of the Republicans, rather than evil groupy hive mind stuff here?

You also kind of appear to be ignoring my questions, and I'm hoping I haven't done anything to piss you off. Lately.

343 reine.de.tout  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 11:00:46am

re: #248 sattv4u2

re: #245 NJDhockeyfan

I'll go even further
If Paul were to get the nod, I would donate to the Obama campaign and work tirelessly for his re-election

(ouch ,,, I hurt myself saying that!!!) ((// the last sentence))

I think you've been perfectly clear here. Not getting the pouncing that came a bit later.

344 sattv4u2  Tue, Dec 20, 2011 11:25:11am

re: #343 reine.de.tout

I think you've been perfectly clear here. Not getting the pouncing that came a bit later.

You didn't get it

I did !!!

///


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