House Republicans finally caved in to reality today and extended the payroll tax holiday — but only for two months, to give themselves time to try to figure out how to obstruct it without looking heartless and suffering in the polls.
The spin should be interesting to watch, but this is a significant failure for John Boehner, who earlier today swore that he wouldn’t back down.
1 |
Douchecanoe and Ryan Too Thu, Dec 22, 2011 3:16:29pm |
The main way the Republicans are trying to deflect attention from themselves is because they are saying, "Well, us in the House were pushing for a full-year extension, it was those obstructionist Democrats in the Senate who refused." Somehow I don't think it went down that way, but without following the details, I can't refute the talking point.
| 2 |
Decatur Deb Thu, Dec 22, 2011 3:18:07pm |
The TPGOP did about as much harm to themselves that they could manage--and the TP wing is still ticked at the leadership.
| 3 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Thu, Dec 22, 2011 3:19:35pm |
Hotair commenters are freaking out, screaming TERM LIMITS and THROW THE BUMS OUT
oh christmas comes early
| 4 |
Political Atheist Thu, Dec 22, 2011 3:21:34pm |
The cave men caved!
Apologies to the cave men...
| 5 |
Political Atheist Thu, Dec 22, 2011 3:23:35pm |
re: #2 Decatur Deb
The TPGOP did about as much harm to themselves that they could manage--and the TP wing is still ticked at the leadership.
LOL@GOP®
| 7 |
blueraven Thu, Dec 22, 2011 3:28:30pm |
re: #1 thedopefishlives
The main way the Republicans are trying to deflect attention from themselves is because they are saying, "Well, us in the House were pushing for a full-year extension, it was those obstructionist Democrats in the Senate who refused." Somehow I don't think it went down that way, but without following the details, I can't refute the talking point.
Except the bill passed in the Senate with 89 votes.
| 8 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Thu, Dec 22, 2011 3:28:43pm |
re: #3 WindUpBird
Hotair commenters are freaking out, screaming TERM LIMITS and THROW THE BUMS OUT
oh christmas comes early
Firebaggers should look in that mirror and decide if they want to be suicidal and vote against Obama/not vote for him because he is "just the same as...".
| 9 |
Douchecanoe and Ryan Too Thu, Dec 22, 2011 3:29:38pm |
re: #7 blueraven
Except the bill passed in the Senate with 89 votes.
Well, the 2-month deal did. The Republican talking point is that they had to cut it down to two months so that the Senate would agree to it. Again, somehow I doubt that's how it really worked.
| 10 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Thu, Dec 22, 2011 3:30:17pm |
They wanted to get home for Christmas.
This is the worst version of Sleigh Ride I've ever heard.
| 11 |
Mattand Thu, Dec 22, 2011 3:32:12pm |
What's so mind boggling is that these guys hate Obama so much that they are willing to refuse to extend a tax cut, which to the modern GOP is what Scooby Snacks are to Shaggy and Scooby.
And let's not forget who benefits from a payroll tax cut. Guess it's most Americans's fault for not being millionaires. Then we'd get all the tax cuts we'd ever need.
| 12 |
Four More Tears Thu, Dec 22, 2011 3:34:34pm |
They're really lucky that Democrats don't have the balls to call them out on this once the campaign season for the House starts.
| 13 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Thu, Dec 22, 2011 3:35:24pm |
re: #8 Sergey Romanov
Firebaggers should look in that mirror and decide if they want to be suicidal and vote against Obama/not vote for him because he is "just the same as...".
There aren't enough firebaggers to make a difference, thankfully
blogwarzz are fun! But they're still just blogwarrzz
| 14 |
funky chicken Thu, Dec 22, 2011 3:42:24pm |
re: #8 Sergey Romanov
Firebaggers should look in that mirror and decide if they want to be suicidal and vote against Obama/not vote for him because he is "just the same as...".
Yeah, the nuts have taken over several of the partisan sites, which is why I seldom visit them any more. They just get more and more extreme as the moderate commenters leave, so the lead authors have to deliver what the remaining audience demands, I suppose.
| 15 |
sod Thu, Dec 22, 2011 3:50:12pm |
re: #14 funky chicken
Yeah, the nuts have taken over several of the partisan sites, which is why I seldom visit them any more. They just get more and more extreme as the moderate commenters leave, so the lead authors have to deliver what the remaining audience demands, I suppose.
Yeah, that's what happened here too!
| 17 |
Targetpractice Thu, Dec 22, 2011 3:58:47pm |
re: #9 thedopefishlives
Well, the 2-month deal did. The Republican talking point is that they had to cut it down to two months so that the Senate would agree to it. Again, somehow I doubt that's how it really worked.
The House (read: The GOP) did pass a year-long extension, but the bill was packed with so many poison pills, the Keystone pipeline and 200,000 gov't job cuts at the top of the stack, that it was doomed to failure. Obama threatened a veto and the Senate declared the bill could not pass, but the House passed it anyway on a partyline vote.
The Senate responded with a two-month extension, stripped of the majority of the poison pills, and sold it as giving Congress breathing room so that a more agreeable bill could be worked out. It passed on a strong bipartisan vote. Immediately, Boehner's leadership once again was shown lacking when, within hours of the vote, most of the House Republicans (many of them new "Young Guns") publicly declared that they weren't going to sign onto the Senate bill, that they'd held their nose just to pass the House bill.
| 18 |
Political Atheist Thu, Dec 22, 2011 4:04:03pm |
re: #16 Bubblehead II
I need to borrow a lighter. Dark's BBQ awaits.
| 19 |
Holidays are Family Fun Time Thu, Dec 22, 2011 4:05:26pm |
re: #18 Rightwingconspirator
I need to borrow a lighter. Dark's BBQ awaits.
Garlic is always ready.
And we have extra help today.
| 20 |
dragonfire1981 Thu, Dec 22, 2011 4:06:57pm |
Interestingly when this issue comes up again, we'll be in the middle of primary season. I'll be very curious to see how the GOP handles it the second time around.
| 21 |
Political Atheist Thu, Dec 22, 2011 4:07:09pm |
| 22 |
Political Atheist Thu, Dec 22, 2011 4:09:57pm |
re: #17 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds
The House (read: The GOP) did pass a year-long extension, but the bill was packed with so many poison pills, the Keystone pipeline and 200,000 gov't job cuts at the top of the stack, that it was doomed to failure. Obama threatened a veto and the Senate declared the bill could not pass, but the House passed it anyway on a partyline vote.
The Senate responded with a two-month extension, stripped of the majority of the poison pills, and sold it as giving Congress breathing room so that a more agreeable bill could be worked out. It passed on a strong bipartisan vote. Immediately, Boehner's leadership once again was shown lacking when, within hours of the vote, most of the House Republicans (many of them new "Young Guns") publicly declared that they weren't going to sign onto the Senate bill, that they'd held their nose just to pass the House bill.
Damn shame we lost the line item veto. That needs fixing, but it would take an amendment I think. 2/3rds of the states all that.
| 23 |
Bubblehead II Thu, Dec 22, 2011 4:10:07pm |
What's going to be interesting is if the House remains in session after they pass the 2 month extension. Wasn't one of the other reasons for this shenanigan to keep Pres. Obama from making recess appointments?
| 24 |
William of Orange Thu, Dec 22, 2011 4:15:14pm |
I just saw a mental picture in my head.
John Boehner sitting in a corner..... Crying.
| 26 |
Targetpractice Thu, Dec 22, 2011 4:23:43pm |
| 28 |
Bubblehead II Thu, Dec 22, 2011 4:31:55pm |
re: #25 Obdicut
What's going to be interesting to see is if this fiasco finally forces the GOP leadership to tell the TPers to take their scorched earth policies and shove them up their ass and take a hike. I somehow doubt it, but hey, a Guy can dream can't he?
| 29 |
TedStriker Thu, Dec 22, 2011 4:35:28pm |
re: #3 WindUpBird
Hotair commenters are freaking out, screaming TERM LIMITS and THROW THE BUMS OUT
oh christmas comes early
Oh, this warms the cockles of my heart.
Suck it, Boehner...
| 30 |
jaunte Thu, Dec 22, 2011 4:35:40pm |
The House made the move after Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid, D-Nev., agreed to appoint conferees to a committee to resolve differences between the Senate's two-month, 2 percentage point, payroll-tax cut and the House's one-year alternative.
Isn't this simply the standard process of reconciliation?
| 31 |
Targetpractice Thu, Dec 22, 2011 4:38:44pm |
re: #30 jaunte
Isn't this simply the standard process of reconciliation?
It is, but the GOP was insisting as recently as yesterday that the only way the extension was going to happen is through conference committee, that they were not going to pass the Senate bill in the House. And considering that Boehner's move on that front was to appoint 8 conferees who have all spoken against the payroll tax cut, it was a dishonest effort on its face.
| 32 |
TedStriker Thu, Dec 22, 2011 4:42:25pm |
re: #15 sod
You know, if you don't like either the editorial content of the articles posted or the comments Lizards make, you have options. You can bitch and whine about it (and not really add anything substantive, like you are now), flounce like the Lizards of the Damned, or grow some balls and actually debate with facts.
Hell, if you don't want to get involved on some topics (or with some Lizards), step away from the computer (or, at least, LGF) for a bit and something will roll around that's more your speed.
| 34 |
Bubblehead II Thu, Dec 22, 2011 4:53:12pm |
re: #32 talon_262
Its left. Came on just long enough to drop a turd and left.
| 35 |
TedStriker Thu, Dec 22, 2011 4:55:15pm |
re: #34 Bubblehead II
Its left. Came on just long enough to drop a turd and left.
326 posts in almost six years...yeah, don't particularly trust them.
| 36 |
TedStriker Thu, Dec 22, 2011 4:55:37pm |
| 37 |
Targetpractice Thu, Dec 22, 2011 4:56:19pm |
re: #33 SpaceJesus
hahaha, freep is threatening a revolution
Against whom? The nutbars they just got done electing last year?
| 38 |
jaunte Thu, Dec 22, 2011 4:56:52pm |
re: #33 SpaceJesus
They're big on demonizing the whole idea of compromise.
Image: Screen_shot_2011-12-22_at_6.54.54_PM.png
| 39 |
Bubblehead II Thu, Dec 22, 2011 4:58:46pm |
re: #35 talon_262
Puts it in the same class a sock in my book.
| 40 |
TedStriker Thu, Dec 22, 2011 5:01:33pm |
re: #38 jaunte
They're big on demonizing the whole idea of compromise.
Image: Screen_shot_2011-12-22_at_6.54.54_PM.png
The philosophy of the modern TPGOP and other assorted RWNJs: purity of morals and thought at all costs, even if destroys everything the Founding Fathers and other forebears fought to create and keep alive. Meanwhile, those same strictures they want to put on all of us don't seem to apply to them (see: Rush, Newt, and many other RW darlings).
Fuck them.
| 41 |
Killgore Trout Thu, Dec 22, 2011 5:04:11pm |
They might have caved, at least temporarily but they still got their pipeline and protected tax breaks for the rich. They did pretty well for themselves.
| 42 |
Bubblehead II Thu, Dec 22, 2011 5:04:20pm |
re: #38 jaunte Space Jesus
They're big on demonizing the whole idea of compromise.
Image: Screen_shot_2011-12-22_at_6.54.54_PM.png
Of course. Because for a small donation of $50.00, we will take you directly there. It will not be Satan's hell, but it will be Hell all the same.
| 43 |
Stanghazi Thu, Dec 22, 2011 5:05:05pm |
re: #40 talon_262
The philosophy of the modern TPGOP and other assorted RWNJs: purity of morals and thought at all costs, even if destroys everything the Founding Fathers and other forebears fought to create and keep alive.
Fuck them.
And hate hate hate on the demoncraps. So old, such a waste, but hey, it fuels their being.
GOP, you compromise, and work towards the betterment of the US, instead of going after women, gays & Muslims, I'll respect you happily.
| 44 |
elisabeth Thu, Dec 22, 2011 5:08:01pm |
re: #41 Killgore Trout
Everything I've read suggests that the pipeline is now less likely to happen.
But the political damage may take awhile to assess. Iowa caucuses are just around the corner....stay tuned.
| 45 |
Targetpractice Thu, Dec 22, 2011 5:08:35pm |
re: #41 Killgore Trout
They might have caved, at least temporarily but they still got their pipeline and protected tax breaks for the rich. They did pretty well for themselves.
But they didn't get it all, and that's what sticks in their craw. They wanted to either hang failure to extend the cuts around Obama's neck or humiliate him by making him agree to their demands to see those cuts go through.
| 46 |
blueraven Thu, Dec 22, 2011 5:12:39pm |
re: #41 Killgore Trout
They might have caved, at least temporarily but they still got their pipeline and protected tax breaks for the rich. They did pretty well for themselves.
Oh please.
| 47 |
Bubblehead II Thu, Dec 22, 2011 5:14:25pm |
re: #45 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds
I will admit to both ignorance and laziness on the matter of this pipeline. Just what the hell is the problem with it? Is a an environmental problem? A eminent domain problem? What?
| 48 |
jaunte Thu, Dec 22, 2011 5:15:28pm |
| 49 |
TedStriker Thu, Dec 22, 2011 5:16:30pm |
re: #43 Stanley Sea
And hate hate hate on the demoncraps. So old, such a waste, but hey, it fuels their being.
GOP, you compromise, and work towards the betterment of the US, instead of going after women, gays & Muslims, I'll respect you happily.
Will. Never. Happen.
| 50 |
Targetpractice Thu, Dec 22, 2011 5:18:10pm |
re: #47 Bubblehead II
I will admit to both ignorance and laziness on the matter of this pipeline. Just what the hell is the problem with it? Is a an environmental problem? A eminent domain problem? What?
The Nebraska stretch of the Keystone pipeline will run above through a large wetlands area and the Ogallala Aquifer, which provides fresh water to folks in 8 states and runs very close to the surface in some places. The big worry is that a major spill from the pipeline could contaminate the aquifer and thus ruin 1/3 of the nation's fresh water supply.
| 52 |
SpaceJesus Thu, Dec 22, 2011 5:20:18pm |
re: #37 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds
pretty much everybody at this point. especially some guy named "obunglar"
| 53 |
Political Atheist Thu, Dec 22, 2011 5:20:49pm |
re: #47 Bubblehead II
I will admit to both ignorance and laziness on the matter of this pipeline. Just what the hell is the problem with it? Is a an environmental problem? A eminent domain problem? What?
To those concerned with AGW it simply must not be allowed to happen. We must not open up those reserves.
| 54 |
Stanghazi Thu, Dec 22, 2011 5:23:34pm |
re: #50 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds
The Nebraska stretch of the Keystone pipeline will run above through a large wetlands area and the Ogallala Aquifer, which provides fresh water to folks in 8 states and runs very close to the surface in some places. The big worry is that a major spill from the pipeline could contaminate the aquifer and thus ruin 1/3 of the nation's fresh water supply.
Plus, isn't the jobs created bullshit, just that, bullshit?
| 55 |
Bubblehead II Thu, Dec 22, 2011 5:24:03pm |
re: #50 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds
Thanks. So the big stink is environmental (at this point). The lazy part of my knowledge has been answered and I guess I had better getting busy taking care of the other half.
| 56 |
A Man for all Seasons Thu, Dec 22, 2011 5:24:43pm |
Hi Lizards! I'm ready for the Colts game in a few..And got off the phone from Indiana... Caught up with the Latest news.. A friend got laid off.. We worry about his well being and his family surviving..
It really sucks.. 400 people just got locked out with no notice at all.. Love them right to work states..If you need to fuck your workers just go for it..We understand..
| 57 |
jaunte Thu, Dec 22, 2011 5:25:06pm |
re: #50 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds
The big worry is that a major spill from the pipeline could contaminate the aquifer and thus ruin 1/3 of the nation's fresh water supply.
In other news today:
Huge Oilfield Off Coast of Nigeria Shut Down After Leak
| 59 |
Holidays are Family Fun Time Thu, Dec 22, 2011 5:26:26pm |
How come I wish Christmas and all the stuff was over?
| 60 |
Stanghazi Thu, Dec 22, 2011 5:27:00pm |
re: #55 Bubblehead II
Thanks. So the big stink is environmental (at this point). The lazy part of my knowledge has been answered and I guess I had better getting busy taking care of the other half.
You know, as kudos to Mr. Johnson and this blog, I learn about much of the stuff going on, here, & I pretty much trust it. One stop info.
| 61 |
Wozza Matter? Thu, Dec 22, 2011 5:27:18pm |
Ari Fleischer is a tea flavoured dick.
He did a piss poor job spinning this on CNN - and this was a man who could spin the clusterfuck of Iraq.
| 62 |
jaunte Thu, Dec 22, 2011 5:29:01pm |
re: #58 Bear
They are. The refineries are down around Houston.
| 63 |
Bubblehead II Thu, Dec 22, 2011 5:29:37pm |
re: #60 Stanley Sea
Yep. Ask and you shall receive. Sometimes more than you want to know %-).
| 64 |
Targetpractice Thu, Dec 22, 2011 5:30:07pm |
re: #54 Stanley Sea
Plus, isn't the jobs created bullshit, just that, bullshit?
TransCanada and its suck-ups claim 200,000 jobs will be created, but the most optimistic estimates made put the number of jobs actually created between 5-6,000, with 90% of those being created in Canada. Likewise, most of the construction materials and equipment will come from Canada, while most of the skilled labor will be brought in from states other than those that the pipeline runs through. And all the work is expected to be done in 2 years, with most jobs lasting 6-9 months.
| 65 |
Wozza Matter? Thu, Dec 22, 2011 5:30:20pm |
re: #59 ggt
How come I wish Christmas and all the stuff was over?
I don't.
I've had such a shit few months I'm looking forward to presents and cooking- yes cooking- the dinner.
locked in the kitchen with wine and a turkey crown and chillout music.
unless I tell someone to peel veg - nobody is allowed in Mum, Dad and sister all locked out until food is ready.
| 66 |
Stanghazi Thu, Dec 22, 2011 5:32:27pm |
re: #63 Bubblehead II
Yep. Ask and you shall receive. Sometimes more than you want to know %-).
Yah definitely must weed through the bs, but it's not that hard. LGF is pretty good with the fact check.
| 67 |
Targetpractice Thu, Dec 22, 2011 5:33:51pm |
re: #55 Bubblehead II
Thanks. So the big stink is environmental (at this point). The lazy part of my knowledge has been answered and I guess I had better getting busy taking care of the other half.
The environmentalists are making the big stink, true, but a lot of folks are calling bullshit on the jobs figures as well as the proposed destination of the pipeline, which is refineries geared primarily towards exporting oil products to Europe and Latin America.
| 68 |
Bubblehead II Thu, Dec 22, 2011 5:36:54pm |
re: #65 wozzablog
I don't.
I've had such a shit few months I'm looking forward to presents and cooking- yes cooking- the dinner.
locked in the kitchen with wine and a turkey crown and chillout music.
I wish. I will be spending the day (boring, I hope) walking a Casino floor explaining to people who can't (or will not) read simple instructions on why they didn't get paid. The Gaming Industry is great for the Technology. The Guest on the other hand, not so much.
| 69 |
Wozza Matter? Thu, Dec 22, 2011 5:37:56pm |
re: #68 Bubblehead II
I wish. I will be spending the day (boring, I hope) walking a Casino floor explaining to people who can't (or will not) read simple instructions on why they didn't get paid. The Gaming Industry is great for the Technology. The Guest on the other hand, not so much.
Yeah, that much i gathered when i was in vegas for a week
| 70 |
Bubblehead II Thu, Dec 22, 2011 5:39:09pm |
re: #67 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds
Thanks. I think. More Research I have to do.
| 71 |
TedStriker Thu, Dec 22, 2011 5:39:24pm |
re: #68 Bubblehead II
I wish. I will be spending the day (boring, I hope) walking a Casino floor explaining to people who can't (or will not) read simple instructions on why they didn't get paid. The Gaming Industry is great for the Technology. The Guest on the other hand, not so much.
Sounds like fun...
I will also spend Christmas Eve and Christmas Day at work, dealing with people setting their burglar and fire alarms off.
| 72 |
Stanghazi Thu, Dec 22, 2011 5:39:29pm |
re: #64 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds
TransCanada and its suck-ups claim 200,000 jobs will be created, but the most optimistic estimates made put the number of jobs actually created between 5-6,000, with 90% of those being created in Canada. Likewise, most of the construction materials and equipment will come from Canada, while most of the skilled labor will be brought in from states other than those that the pipeline runs through. And all the work is expected to be done in 2 years, with most jobs lasting 6-9 months.
OH CANADA!!
| 73 |
TedStriker Thu, Dec 22, 2011 5:40:36pm |
| 74 |
Bubblehead II Thu, Dec 22, 2011 5:41:39pm |
re: #71 talon_262
Sounds like fun...
I, on the other hand, will spend Christmas Eve and Christmas Day at work, dealing with people setting their burglar and fire alarms off.
And how many of them will be drunk?
| 75 |
Stanghazi Thu, Dec 22, 2011 5:43:00pm |
re: #73 talon_262
FTFY...
Ah, they want their glory. Bad. Don't they now have a teabagger-ish prime minister?
| 76 |
jaunte Thu, Dec 22, 2011 5:43:23pm |
Some more Keystone:
...a new report (pdf at link) from Canada’s environmental ministry shows how great the impact of the tar sands will be in the coming years, even with cleaner production methods.
It projects that Canada will double its current tar sands production over the next decade to more than 1.8 million barrels a day. That rate will mean cutting down some 740,000 acres of boreal forest — a natural carbon reservoir. Extracting oil from tar sands is also much more complicated than pumping conventional crude oil out of the ground. It requires steam-heating the sands to produce a petroleum slurry, then further dilution.
One result of this process, the ministry says, is that greenhouse gas emissions from the oil and gas sector as a whole will rise by nearly one-third from 2005 to 2020 — even as other sectors are reducing emissions.[Link: www.nytimes.com...]
| 77 |
TedStriker Thu, Dec 22, 2011 5:43:54pm |
re: #74 Bubblehead II
And how many of them will be drunk?
Maybe a few, though we have a contingent of customers that are clearly crazy. Add to that a bunch of people that can't cook and hilarity ensues.
| 78 |
Gus Thu, Dec 22, 2011 5:45:06pm |
re: #67 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds
The environmentalists are making the big stink, true, but a lot of folks are calling bullshit on the jobs figures as well as the proposed destination of the pipeline, which is refineries geared primarily towards exporting oil products to Europe and Latin America.
That claim of course is subject to scrutiny including some peer review. The population continues to increase so demand continues to increase. Petroleum products are heavily integrated into the industrial workings of the globe. From them to our own personal use right here on our computers. The gasoline for our cars; to produce plastics; truck and train transport; etc...
| 79 |
wrenchwench Thu, Dec 22, 2011 5:47:35pm |
| 80 |
Gus Thu, Dec 22, 2011 5:48:12pm |
If I were consulting Obama on XL Keystone I'd tell him to give it a green light. If I were running a newspaper I'd have my newspaper endorse XL Keystone.
| 82 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Thu, Dec 22, 2011 5:50:04pm |
But, isn't the "caving" a good thing? I mean, for America?
| 83 |
Romantic Heretic Thu, Dec 22, 2011 5:50:18pm |
re: #75 Stanley Sea
Ah, they want their glory. Bad. Don't they now have a teabagger-ish prime minister?
Yes. Yes, we do.
Took us out of the Kyoto Protocol. Shut down Parliament, twice, rather than face possible scandals or a confidence vote.
I call him Our Dear Leader because not long after he won the Prime Ministership for the first time there was an article in our leading newsmagazine about him that was straight out of North Korea.
My first thought when I saw this picture was, "I wonder if he ate that kitten?"
As you can tell, I think he is utter scum.
| 84 |
Killgore Trout Thu, Dec 22, 2011 5:50:40pm |
re: #80 Gus 802
If I were consulting Obama on XL Keystone I'd tell him to give it a green light. If I were running a newspaper I'd have my newspaper endorse XL Keystone.
Obama probably wants the pipeline too. Our energy policy stinks but there are practical considerations. We are a long way from ending pipelines and drilling. That's a fact.
| 85 |
Wozza Matter? Thu, Dec 22, 2011 5:51:52pm |
re: #82 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
But, isn't the "caving" a good thing? I mean, for America?
Exploration of prehistoric rock formations carved over millenia by nature is great for everybody.
OH, you meant the other thing?. Long as two grown ups take turns - it's gravy.
| 86 |
Gus Thu, Dec 22, 2011 5:52:20pm |
re: #84 Killgore Trout
Obama probably wants the pipeline too. Our energy policy stinks but there are practical considerations. We are a long way from ending pipelines and drilling. That's a fact.
Petroleum is an integral part of the economy, industry, and our lives. Until we evolve towards alternatives we'll have continues using oil. We'll get there eventually and as you know you can't push evolution in people.
| 87 |
Romantic Heretic Thu, Dec 22, 2011 5:53:27pm |
re: #84 Killgore Trout
Obama probably wants the pipeline too. Our energy policy stinks but there are practical considerations. We are a long way from ending pipelines and drilling. That's a fact.
As the report from the Canadian Environment Ministry shows, the U.S. gets the oil, Trans-Canada gets the profit and Canada gets the mess.
Great deal! /
| 88 |
Targetpractice Thu, Dec 22, 2011 5:54:08pm |
re: #86 Gus 802
Petroleum is an integral part of the economy, industry, and our lives. Until we evolve towards alternatives we'll have continues using oil. We'll get there eventually and as you know you can't push evolution in people.
Evolution requires pressure to work, to adapt or perish, in order to work. Continuing to suck at the oil teat, making excuses that "There's no alternative," does nothing to promote evolution past oil.
| 89 |
Gus Thu, Dec 22, 2011 5:54:21pm |
re: #87 Romantic Heretic
As the report from the Canadian Environment Ministry shows, the U.S. gets the oil, Trans-Canada gets the profit and Canada gets the mess.
Great deal! /
So we're not capable, technologically, to keep it from becoming a mess?
| 90 |
Gus Thu, Dec 22, 2011 5:55:42pm |
re: #88 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds
Evolution requires pressure to work, to adapt or perish, in order to work. Continuing to suck at the oil teat, making excuses that "There's no alternative," does nothing to promote evolution past oil.
But we're already doing that. In fact, and highly ironic in this case, it's China that's leading the way. We can't just force it especially during an economic downturn.
| 91 |
Feline Fearless Leader Thu, Dec 22, 2011 5:55:51pm |
re: #89 Gus 802
So we're not capable, technologically, to keep it from becoming a mess?
At a price level that is competitive with world market prices? Probably not.
| 92 |
Targetpractice Thu, Dec 22, 2011 5:56:28pm |
re: #89 Gus 802
So we're not capable, technologically, to keep it from becoming a mess?
Uh, no, the process is inherently dirty, wasteful, and resource-hungry. It's why tapping our own tar sands reserves here in the US would require oil to stay above $120/bbl.
| 93 |
darthstar Thu, Dec 22, 2011 5:56:44pm |
re: #87 Romantic Heretic
As the report from the Canadian Environment Ministry shows, the U.S. gets the oil, Trans-Canada gets the profit and Canada gets the mess.
Great deal! /
Don't worry, Canada. The war will pay for itself with all the oil we'll get from you.
| 94 |
Gus Thu, Dec 22, 2011 5:56:57pm |
re: #91 oaktree
At a price level that is competitive with world market prices? Probably not.
But the money's already there. The numbers have obviously been crunched. Investors wouldn't have poured all this money into it already if they weren't thinking of a return.
| 95 |
Atlas Fails Thu, Dec 22, 2011 5:57:33pm |
re: #84 Killgore Trout
Obama probably wants the pipeline too. Our energy policy stinks but there are practical considerations. We are a long way from ending pipelines and drilling. That's a fact.
Gotta disagree. I've seen testimonials from scientists warning against mining the Canadian tar sands, with one NASA scientist saying it would essentially be "game over for the climate." Not to mention the other, more mundane environmental hazards that come with constructing a huge oil pipeline that stretches across the Mid-West. Fracking isn't exactly a joy for local residents either:
| 96 |
AGE1607 Thu, Dec 22, 2011 5:57:53pm |
So what will Canada do if the oil can't be sent to Texas via the XL Keystone pipeline?
| 97 |
Vicious Michigan Union Thug Thu, Dec 22, 2011 5:57:58pm |
WTF!!
I turned the TV on for just a second. Some guys are spinning around upside down on their heads and Justin Fucking Bieber is singing ooh ooh ooh baby baby Santa Claus is coming, yeah hes coming! ooh yeah he know if you're being naughty (guys are still spinning around upside down on their heads)
Please tell me I didn't see that.
| 99 |
Romantic Heretic Thu, Dec 22, 2011 5:58:49pm |
re: #89 Gus 802
So we're not capable, technologically, to keep it from becoming a mess?
As far as I know, no. Best we can do is put the mess in gigantic tailings ponds and pray the walls of them don't give way.
| 100 |
darthstar Thu, Dec 22, 2011 5:59:00pm |
re: #97 Alouette
Network TV isn't dead yet, but shows like that make me want to hold a pillow over its face while it's sleeping.
| 101 |
Targetpractice Thu, Dec 22, 2011 5:59:17pm |
re: #90 Gus 802
But we're already doing that. In fact, and highly ironic in this case, it's China that's leading the way. We can't just force it especially during an economic downturn.
China's leading the way by heavily subsidizing clean energy, both at the R&D stage and in production, so that they can flood the world market with cheap products that are slowly killing our own domestic producers. While we're doubling down on oil, the Chinese are setting themselves up to be the world leaders in clean energy.
| 102 |
Vicious Michigan Union Thug Thu, Dec 22, 2011 5:59:46pm |
Coffee break's over, back on your heads!
| 103 |
Romantic Heretic Thu, Dec 22, 2011 6:00:09pm |
re: #93 darthstar
Don't worry, Canada. The war will pay for itself with all the oil we'll get from you.
I'm not worried. I know how to win a war with the U.S.
Oh wait. It's not necessary. The TPGOP is already fighting it.
| 104 |
Gus Thu, Dec 22, 2011 6:01:15pm |
Well. Think about it the next time you get an oil change for your car. Or sooner when you fill the tank with gasoline.
| 105 |
Atlas Fails Thu, Dec 22, 2011 6:01:35pm |
re: #97 Alouette
WTF!!
I turned the TV on for just a second. Some guys are spinning around upside down on their heads and Justin Fucking Bieber is singing ooh ooh ooh baby baby Santa Claus is coming, yeah hes coming! ooh yeah he know if you're being naughty (guys are still spinning around upside down on their heads)
Please tell me I didn't see that.
The Black Keys released a nice album earlier this year. So there's that...
| 106 |
Gus Thu, Dec 22, 2011 6:01:50pm |
re: #99 Romantic Heretic
As far as I know, no. Best we can do is put the mess in gigantic tailings ponds and pray the walls of them don't give way.
We're praying for engineering now?
| 107 |
_RememberTonyC Thu, Dec 22, 2011 6:02:00pm |
News Note:
UN observes a moment of silence in honor of North Korean tyrant Kim Jong Il.
[Link: www.jpost.com...]
If any further evidence of this wretched organization's values are needed, this should do the trick. Disgusting does not even begin to describe this.
| 108 |
Targetpractice Thu, Dec 22, 2011 6:02:12pm |
re: #104 Gus 802
Well. Think about it the next time you get an oil change for your car. Or sooner when you fill the tank with gasoline.
Neither of which will be made cheaper by this pipeline. All the pipeline will do is making it easier for TranCanada to charge what they like per barrel of oil.
| 109 |
Killgore Trout Thu, Dec 22, 2011 6:02:27pm |
think about it. While bitching about global warming and oil pipelines how many of our thermostats are set way too high? How many unnecessary lights are on in your house right now? Do you really need the TV on while at the computer? How many devices do you have plugged in right now that don't need to be. Especially us Americans habitually overconsume. It's absurd. Knock it off and maybe we won't need the damn pipeline.
| 110 |
Romantic Heretic Thu, Dec 22, 2011 6:04:08pm |
re: #94 Gus 802
But the money's already there. The numbers have obviously been crunched. Investors wouldn't have poured all this money into it already if they weren't thinking of a return.
The numbers not included in the crunching is the money lost through environmental destruction and health costs arising from it. Those sorts of costs are ignored because they won't occur for years and would move a profitable venture into the unprofitable category.
Business gets the money and the people get the shaft.
| 111 |
Gus Thu, Dec 22, 2011 6:04:18pm |
re: #109 Killgore Trout
think about it. While bitching about global warming and oil pipelines how many of our thermostats are set way too high? How many unnecessary lights are on in your house right now? Do you really need the TV on while at the computer? How many devices do you have plugged in right now that don't need to be. Especially us Americans habitually overconsume. It's absurd. Knock it off and maybe we won't need the damn pipeline.
And all of the oil required for iPhones, iPads, etc. Especially with the plastics and then bunker oil for cross Pacific transport.
| 112 |
Targetpractice Thu, Dec 22, 2011 6:04:27pm |
re: #109 Killgore Trout
think about it. While bitching about global warming and oil pipelines how many of our thermostats are set way too high? How many unnecessary lights are on in your house right now? Do you really need the TV on while at the computer? How many devices do you have plugged in right now that don't need to be. Especially us Americans habitually overconsume. It's absurd. Knock it off and maybe we won't need the damn pipeline.
On that we can agree, part of our national focus should be on energy efficiency and on reducing our oil consumption.
| 113 |
Gus Thu, Dec 22, 2011 6:05:16pm |
re: #110 Romantic Heretic
The numbers not included in the crunching is the money lost through environmental destruction and health costs arising from it. Those sorts of costs are ignored because they won't occur for years and would move a profitable venture into the unprofitable category.
Business gets the money and the people get the shaft.
Is there proof that people will get the shaft? I mean a prediction lining out the possible scenarios. Because right now that looks alarmingly like a negative.
| 114 |
Wozza Matter? Thu, Dec 22, 2011 6:06:06pm |
re: #109 Killgore Trout
think about it. While bitching about global warming and oil pipelines how many of our thermostats are set way too high? How many unnecessary lights are on in your house right now? Do you really need the TV on while at the computer? How many devices do you have plugged in right now that don't need to be. Especially us Americans habitually overconsume. It's absurd. Knock it off and maybe we won't need the damn pipeline.
Conspicuous consumption is American Exceptionalism. It's un-american to not consume every possible resource.
| 115 |
Killgore Trout Thu, Dec 22, 2011 6:06:19pm |
re: #112 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds
On that we can agree, part of our national focus should be on energy efficiency and on reducing our oil consumption.
...and I hate to be a scrooge but as I'm looking around the X-mas lights in my 'hood are a gross display of wasted energy.
| 116 |
Atlas Fails Thu, Dec 22, 2011 6:06:44pm |
re: #109 Killgore Trout
think about it. While bitching about global warming and oil pipelines how many of our thermostats are set way too high? How many unnecessary lights are on in your house right now? Do you really need the TV on while at the computer? How many devices do you have plugged in right now that don't need to be. Especially us Americans habitually overconsume. It's absurd. Knock it off and maybe we won't need the damn pipeline.
Sorry, but the fact that Americans may leave too many lights on doesn't make me sigh and concede that oil companies should be authorized to further wreck the environment.
| 117 |
jaunte Thu, Dec 22, 2011 6:07:31pm |
re: #111 Gus 802
The 'diluent' which has to be added to the bitumen to help it slip through a pipeline will be imported from Malaysia and Russia.
| 118 |
blueraven Thu, Dec 22, 2011 6:07:36pm |
re: #109 Killgore Trout
think about it. While bitching about global warming and oil pipelines how many of our thermostats are set way too high? How many unnecessary lights are on in your house right now? Do you really need the TV on while at the computer? How many devices do you have plugged in right now that don't need to be. Especially us Americans habitually overconsume. It's absurd. Knock it off and maybe we won't need the damn pipeline.
Maybe most of us dont need to be lectured to by you either. I put a robe on instead of turning up the thermostat. I dont drive unless I need to. I turn out lights.
I just want the damn thing to be safe and not contaminate the little water we have left here in TX. Is that too much to ask?
| 119 |
Targetpractice Thu, Dec 22, 2011 6:07:52pm |
re: #115 Killgore Trout
...and I hate to be a scrooge but as I'm looking around the X-mas lights in my 'hood are a gross display of wasted energy.
Don't get me started on Christmas lights. I've seen houses lit up with enough juice to power a second house. It seems to be some informal competition, to see who can waste the most money and time turning their houses into eyesores.
| 120 |
Killgore Trout Thu, Dec 22, 2011 6:08:00pm |
re: #116 Atlas Fails
Sorry, but the fact that Americans may leave too many lights on doesn't make me sigh and concede that oil companies should be authorized to further wreck the environment.
Then by all means keep giving them your money. Consume away!
| 121 |
Vicious Michigan Union Thug Thu, Dec 22, 2011 6:08:01pm |
My favorite show, "Bones" is pre-empted for this seizure-inducing shit? I have a migraine from watching 30 seconds. How many epileptic convulsions have been caused from watching the X factor?
| 122 |
Romantic Heretic Thu, Dec 22, 2011 6:09:02pm |
re: #106 Gus 802
We're praying for engineering now?
If engineering was a sure thing the Titanic would still be floating.
| 123 |
Killgore Trout Thu, Dec 22, 2011 6:09:17pm |
re: #121 Alouette
My favorite show, "Bones" is pre-empted for this seizure-inducing shit? I have a migraine from watching 30 seconds. How many epileptic convulsions have been caused from watching the X factor?
I love Joe Rogan but I can't watch that show either.
| 124 |
Atlas Fails Thu, Dec 22, 2011 6:09:20pm |
re: #120 Killgore Trout
Then by all means keep giving them your money. Consume away!
I make a conscious effort not waste energy, mostly because I'm young and broke.
| 125 |
Gus Thu, Dec 22, 2011 6:10:17pm |
re: #124 Atlas Fails
I make a conscious effort not waste energy, mostly because I'm young and broke.
We're all Abby Hoffman when we're young and broke. ;)
| 126 |
Atlas Fails Thu, Dec 22, 2011 6:11:50pm |
re: #125 Gus 802
We're all Abby Hoffman when we're young and broke. ;)
Ha. Killgore's point about our over-consumption is well-taken, but I can't agree with the conclusion he arrives at from it.
| 127 |
Feline Fearless Leader Thu, Dec 22, 2011 6:13:25pm |
re: #94 Gus 802
But the money's already there. The numbers have obviously been crunched. Investors wouldn't have poured all this money into it already if they weren't thinking of a return.
Said return does not include the additional spending to prevent making a mess out of that section of Canada though.
| 128 |
Gus Thu, Dec 22, 2011 6:13:48pm |
re: #126 Atlas Fails
Ha. Killgore's point about our over-consumption is well-taken, but I can't agree with the conclusion he arrives at from it.
I think it's just that we have "oil" all around us. Look at all of our stuff. Our computers, our cars, our television sets, the paper, etc. We're reliant on oil and until that time comes where we've changed we'll continue to consume oil and its subsequent products.
| 129 |
Holidays are Family Fun Time Thu, Dec 22, 2011 6:16:53pm |
re: #97 Alouette
WTF!!
I turned the TV on for just a second. Some guys are spinning around upside down on their heads and Justin Fucking Bieber is singing ooh ooh ooh baby baby Santa Claus is coming, yeah hes coming! ooh yeah he know if you're being naughty (guys are still spinning around upside down on their heads)
Please tell me I didn't see that.
I am so sorry.
| 130 |
Romantic Heretic Thu, Dec 22, 2011 6:18:05pm |
This just in. And this is from a conservative paper.
| 131 |
Feline Fearless Leader Thu, Dec 22, 2011 6:18:10pm |
re: #97 Alouette
WTF!!
I turned the TV on for just a second. Some guys are spinning around upside down on their heads and Justin Fucking Bieber is singing ooh ooh ooh baby baby Santa Claus is coming, yeah hes coming! ooh yeah he know if you're being naughty (guys are still spinning around upside down on their heads)
Please tell me I didn't see that.
TV here at my brother's place is just used for watching DVDs. No cable TV and the non-cable reception is nil. So I am spared even the temptation.
| 132 |
jaunte Thu, Dec 22, 2011 6:18:32pm |
re: #128 Gus 802
I think it's just that we have "oil" all around us. Look at all of our stuff. Our computers, our cars, our television sets, the paper, etc. We're reliant on oil and until that time comes where we've changed we'll continue to consume oil and its subsequent products.
That's all true, but the bitumen from the tar sands is about the dirtiest and most expensive source of hydrocarbons we could find.
| 133 |
Holidays are Family Fun Time Thu, Dec 22, 2011 6:21:02pm |
re: #109 Killgore Trout
think about it. While bitching about global warming and oil pipelines how many of our thermostats are set way too high? How many unnecessary lights are on in your house right now? Do you really need the TV on while at the computer? How many devices do you have plugged in right now that don't need to be. Especially us Americans habitually overconsume. It's absurd. Knock it off and maybe we won't need the damn pipeline.
The only way that will happen is if the price becomes too high and people change their behavior because of it.
Then, they'll bitch because they have to pay extra so the poor will have heat and lights. . . ..
NO ONE will will suggest the electric companies to use the xtra profits to research alternative oil prices, UNTIL they are hauled in front of Congress to testify as to why it was so important that their executives receive $1M bonuses.
| 134 |
Gus Thu, Dec 22, 2011 6:22:03pm |
re: #132 jaunte
That's all true, but the bitumen from the tar sands is about the dirtiest and most expensive source of hydrocarbons we could find.
How does it compare to asphalt paving?
| 135 |
Gus Thu, Dec 22, 2011 6:23:12pm |
It's not really about XL Keystone then. It's about the Canadian oilsands project.
| 136 |
jaunte Thu, Dec 22, 2011 6:23:23pm |
re: #134 Gus 802
From what I read, it's similar. Lots of impurities (8x the sulfur of West Texas crude, 1000ppm heavy metals, clays, etc.
| 137 |
Gus Thu, Dec 22, 2011 6:26:29pm |
re: #133 ggt
The only way that will happen is if the price becomes too high and people change their behavior because of it.
Then, they'll bitch because they have to pay extra so the poor will have heat and lights. . . ..
NO ONE will will suggest the electric companies to use the xtra profits to research alternative oil prices, UNTIL they are hauled in front of Congress to testify as to why it was so important that their executives receive $1M bonuses.
What makes you think they won't keep thinking of ways to manipulate prices after they change their behaviors?
| 138 |
Gus Thu, Dec 22, 2011 6:27:35pm |
IOW, you want the Federal government to manipulate a commodities product.
| 139 |
Vicious Michigan Union Thug Thu, Dec 22, 2011 6:27:35pm |
re: #133 ggt
The only way that will happen is if the price becomes too high and people change their behavior because of it.
Then, they'll bitch because they have to pay extra so the poor will have heat and lights. . . ..
NO ONE will will suggest the electric companies to use the xtra profits to research alternative oil prices, UNTIL they are hauled in front of Congress to testify as to why it was so important that their executives receive $1M bonuses.
Yes, they really are that entitled:
The new limits, which would affect banks that accept "exceptional assistance" from the public treasury, would also impose stricter rules on golden parachutes, entertainment, holiday parties, conferences and the use of corporate jets.
Scott Talbott, senior vice president of government affairs at the Financial Services Roundtable, expressed concerns about the new executive compensation restrictions.
"The pay scale for Wall Street is different for the pay scale for America," Talbott told ABC News. "So these numbers look large, but the market value for these executives - there's a very small talent pool of individuals that have the education, experience and knowledge to operate a global, international services firm in this day and age."
Executives may quit banks that fall under the new $500,000 pay limits, he warned.
"I don't think the issue is a dollar amount. It's being paid what you're worth… Would you be willing to work for less than what you think you're worth?" Talbott asked.
| 140 |
Killgore Trout Thu, Dec 22, 2011 6:31:44pm |
re: #133 ggt
The only way that will happen is if the price becomes too high and people change their behavior because of it.
Then, they'll bitch because they have to pay extra so the poor will have heat and lights. . . ..
NO ONE will will suggest the electric companies to use the xtra profits to research alternative oil prices, UNTIL they are hauled in front of Congress to testify as to why it was so important that their executives receive $1M bonuses.
Maybe, even probably but my solution is more radical. Every trinket we buy, every gadget, every processed frozen ready meal, every purchase encased in plastic wrap, foam packaging, etc., every light bulb turned on, every TV, every porch light, just consumes oil, energy and makes those ever so hated fat cats richer. Maybe if we started to live differently things might start to change. Maybe if we lived humbly, simply and modestly instead of flaunting our gross over consumption as a status symbol we be happier. I know it'll never catch on but it's a good idea.
| 141 |
Gus Thu, Dec 22, 2011 6:32:27pm |
Price controls are effectively in violation of the Commerce Clause. I'll see if I can find a citation.
| 142 |
Holidays are Family Fun Time Thu, Dec 22, 2011 6:32:29pm |
re: #137 Gus 802
What makes you think they won't keep thinking of ways to manipulate prices after they change their behaviors?
My typo --
NO ONE will will suggest the electric companies to use the xtra profits to research alternative oil prices energy sources,
| 143 |
jaunte Thu, Dec 22, 2011 6:33:44pm |
BP Pledges No Increase in Lake Michigan Discharge Limits at Whiting Refinery
Warrenville, IL, August, 23, 2007- BP America today promised to operate its Whiting refinery to meet the lower discharge limits contained in the refinery’s previous wastewater treatment permit.
“We have participated in an open and transparent permitting process with the State of Indiana and obtained a valid permit that meets all regulatory standards and is protective of water quality and human health. Even so, ongoing regional opposition to any increase in discharge permit limits for Lake Michigan creates an unacceptable level of business risk for this $3.8 billion investment,” said BP America Chairman and President Bob Malone.
BP has obtained regulatory approval to increase average daily discharge limits for ammonia from 1,030 to 1,584 pounds per day and for total suspended solids (TSS) from 3646 to 4925 pounds per day to modernize the Whiting refinery and greatly increase the amount of Canadian heavy crude it can process.
This refinery waste gets dumped into Lake Michigan.
| 144 |
Killgore Trout Thu, Dec 22, 2011 6:34:01pm |
re: #124 Atlas Fails
I make a conscious effort not waste energy, mostly because I'm young and broke.
I know where you're coming from. I've been there and done that. Just wait until you're old and broke. It's a whole different ball game.
| 145 |
b_sharp Thu, Dec 22, 2011 6:34:12pm |
re: #135 Gus 802
It's not really about XL Keystone then. It's about the Canadian oilsands project.
Yes.
The XL pipeline is it's own problem with severe pollution potential.
| 146 |
Holidays are Family Fun Time Thu, Dec 22, 2011 6:34:24pm |
re: #140 Killgore Trout
Maybe, even probably but my solution is more radical. Every trinket we buy, every gadget, every processed frozen ready meal, every purchase encased in plastic wrap, foam packaging, etc., every light bulb turned on, every TV, every porch light, just consumes oil, energy and makes those ever so hated fat cats richer. Maybe if we started to live differently things might start to change. Maybe if we lived humbly, simply and modestly instead of flaunting our gross over consumption as a status symbol we be happier. I know it'll never catch on but it's a good idea.
Nice idea, but all those trinkets mean someone or many someones have jobs. The economy will have to drastically change. I don't know how or if it will.
| 147 |
Vicious Michigan Union Thug Thu, Dec 22, 2011 6:35:14pm |
re: #143 jaunte
BP Pledges No Increase in Lake Michigan Discharge Limits at Whiting Refinery
This refinery waste gets dumped into Lake Michigan.
It's not enough that they fouled up the Gulf of Mexico but now they have to shit IN THE FRESH WATER SUPPLY THAT WE DRINK?
| 148 |
Gus Thu, Dec 22, 2011 6:35:31pm |
re: #142 ggt
My typo --
NO ONE will will suggest the electric companies to use the xtra profits to research alternative
oil pricesenergy sources,
OK. A lot of utilities companies are in the process of converting to alternative sources. It's slow but it's moving forward.
| 149 |
Killgore Trout Thu, Dec 22, 2011 6:36:36pm |
re: #146 ggt
Nice idea, but all those trinkets mean someone or many someones have jobs. The economy will have to drastically change. I don't know how or if it will.
That's why I usually try to refrain from preaching non-consumerism. Our economy is based on consumption. Sad but true.
| 150 |
jaunte Thu, Dec 22, 2011 6:37:24pm |
re: #147 Alouette
BP, Marathon, Shell and ConocoPhillips have announced plans to expand half a dozen older refineries around the Great Lakes to process tar sands bitumen.
| 151 |
Gus Thu, Dec 22, 2011 6:38:43pm |
re: #145 b_sharp
Yes.
The XL pipeline is it's own problem with severe pollution potential.
Then why didn't ya say so! ;)
| 152 |
Holidays are Family Fun Time Thu, Dec 22, 2011 6:39:03pm |
re: #148 Gus 802
OK. A lot of utilities companies are in the process of converting to alternative sources. It's slow but it's moving forward.
My only point is that people don't make difficult changes in their behavior unless forced to by price.
A lot of very powerful someones have a lot invested in the current energy supply.
I'm not hopeful for any real change until it begins to affect those people's lives.
A good historical example is the sanitary conditions in London in the 19th Century. The Thames was a sewer and poor people were dying left and right. Nothing happened until the stink got so bad, it could be smelled in Parliment, IIRC.
| 153 |
Holidays are Family Fun Time Thu, Dec 22, 2011 6:40:23pm |
re: #149 Killgore Trout
That's why I usually try to refrain from preaching non-consumerism. Our economy is based on consumption. Sad but true.
Do you have a better system for employing and feeding billions of people?
| 154 |
b_sharp Thu, Dec 22, 2011 6:42:25pm |
re: #151 Gus 802
Then why didn't ya say so! ;)
The pipeline will result in an increase in oilsand production so talking about them as one gives a clearer message.
| 155 |
Gus Thu, Dec 22, 2011 6:45:07pm |
re: #152 ggt
My only point is that people don't make difficult changes in their behavior unless forced to by price.
A lot of very powerful someones have a lot invested in the current energy supply.
I'm not hopeful for any real change until it begins to affect those people's lives.
A good historical example is the sanitary conditions in London in the 19th Century. The Thames was a sewer and poor people were dying left and right. Nothing happened until the stink got so bad, it could be smelled in Parliment, IIRC.
Artificially inflating fuel and energy prices has a high negative impact on the working poor. That has been my observation.
| 156 |
jaunte Thu, Dec 22, 2011 6:45:28pm |
re: #145 b_sharp
Yes.
The XL pipeline is it's own problem with severe pollution potential.
One example:
Enbridge Energy Partners LLP (Enbridge) reported a 30-inch pipeline ruptured on Monday, July 26, 2010, near Marshall, Michigan. The release, estimated at 819,000 gallons, entered Talmadge Creek and flowed into the Kalamazoo River, a Lake Michigan tributary. Heavy rains caused the river to overtop existing dams and carried oil 30 miles downstream on the Kalamazoo River.
[Link: www.epa.gov...]
| 157 |
Killgore Trout Thu, Dec 22, 2011 6:45:41pm |
re: #153 ggt
Do you have a better system for employing and feeding billions of people?
Not really. I've come across a few tantalizing ideas such as "no growth economies" but I don;t know how feasible they might be or what changes might be needed to make them work. The economics is way over my head. In the mean time I view non-consumerism as my own private loophole in modern society.
| 158 |
Holidays are Family Fun Time Thu, Dec 22, 2011 6:45:58pm |
re: #155 Gus 802
Artificially inflating fuel and energy prices has a high negative impact on the working poor. That has been my observation.
Of course. We are screwed all the way around.
| 159 |
Holidays are Family Fun Time Thu, Dec 22, 2011 6:46:54pm |
re: #157 Killgore Trout
Not really. I've come across a few tantalizing ideas such as "no growth economies" but I don;t know how feasible they might be or what changes might be needed to make them work. The economics is way over my head. In the mean time I view non-consumerism as my own private loophole in modern society.
The only answers I have are Education and Contraception.
Doesn't seem to be a popular answer, historically.
| 160 |
Gus Thu, Dec 22, 2011 6:47:57pm |
re: #158 ggt
Of course. We are screwed all the way around.
That's a good way to live sometimes. So I look at XL Keystone and think if it's approved or not we're still screwed. It's a way of life now. Back in the old day XL Keystone would have driven me up the wall. Now? I've seen it go both ways and we're still plodding along like a bunch of knuckleheads.
| 162 |
b_sharp Thu, Dec 22, 2011 6:48:58pm |
re: #156 jaunte
One example:
When the wind blows the right way I can step outside and smell Enbridge.
| 163 |
Holidays are Family Fun Time Thu, Dec 22, 2011 6:49:28pm |
If we could find an alternative energy source that was more profitable than oil . . . .
| 164 |
Gus Thu, Dec 22, 2011 6:50:14pm |
re: #163 ggt
If we could find an alternative energy source that was more profitable than oil . . .
Saffron.
| 166 |
b_sharp Thu, Dec 22, 2011 6:51:06pm |
re: #160 Gus 802
That's a good way to live sometimes. So I look at XL Keystone and think if it's approved or not we're still screwed. It's a way of life now. Back in the old day XL Keystone would have driven me up the wall. Now? I've seen it go both ways and we're still plodding along like a bunch of knuckleheads.
Do you mean knuckle-draggers?
| 167 |
b_sharp Thu, Dec 22, 2011 6:52:57pm |
re: #165 jaunte
I live in Houston. "We're soaking in it!"
I have an upgrader, refinery and storage field about 5 kms away.
| 168 |
TedStriker Thu, Dec 22, 2011 6:55:05pm |
re: #143 jaunte
BP Pledges No Increase in Lake Michigan Discharge Limits at Whiting Refinery
This refinery waste gets dumped into Lake Michigan.
Why not? It's from the Earth!
///
| 170 |
Holidays are Family Fun Time Thu, Dec 22, 2011 6:56:13pm |
re: #168 talon_262
Why not? It's from the Earth!
///
Wait, is/wasn't there an overabundance of some barnacle type critter in the Great Lakes that ate pollution.
Or was that taken care of.
| 174 |
Holidays are Family Fun Time Thu, Dec 22, 2011 6:58:43pm |
| 176 |
jaunte Thu, Dec 22, 2011 6:59:57pm |
School accused of putting autistic student in bag
"The employees of the Mercer County Public Schools are qualified professionals who treat students with respect and dignity while providing a safe and nurturing learning environment"
| 179 |
jaunte Thu, Dec 22, 2011 7:05:41pm |
re: #177 Gus 802
The case at the end of the story sounds worse:
A July letter from the state agency to special education directors said the state had investigated two informal complaints this year.
In one, "a student (was) nearly asphyxiated while being restrained," and in the other, a student vomited from panic attacks after spending most of an academic year "confined to a closet, with no ventilation or outside source of light," according to the letter.
| 180 |
jaunte Thu, Dec 22, 2011 7:06:03pm |
In Kentucky, there are no laws on using restraint or seclusion in public schools.
| 181 |
b_sharp Thu, Dec 22, 2011 7:07:41pm |
re: #180 jaunte
In Kentucky, there are no laws on using restraint or seclusion in public schools.
Ah, one of the more 'progressive' school systems.
They must have run out of closet space.
| 183 |
Four More Tears Thu, Dec 22, 2011 7:10:33pm |
grumble grumble Skyrim crash grumble...
| 184 |
Four More Tears Thu, Dec 22, 2011 7:11:36pm |
The seal has been broken on my copy of The Old Republic.
| 185 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Thu, Dec 22, 2011 7:15:10pm |
| 186 |
Romantic Heretic Thu, Dec 22, 2011 7:45:31pm |
re: #152 ggt
My only point is that people don't make difficult changes in their behavior unless forced to by price.
A lot of very powerful someones have a lot invested in the current energy supply.
I'm not hopeful for any real change until it begins to affect those people's lives.
A good historical example is the sanitary conditions in London in the 19th Century. The Thames was a sewer and poor people were dying left and right. Nothing happened until the stink got so bad, it could be smelled in Parliment, IIRC.
That's right. Also there were regulations about where water, which was sold in bottles, could be drawn from on the Thames.
But they were not enforced and so ignored. Helped spread cholera around real good.
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