Ron Paul Denies Writing Letter On ‘Coming Race War’

He knew nothing
Wingnuts • Views: 27,090

Right on cue, Ron Paul’s spokesman Jesse Benton is actually going to try to deny that Ron Paul wrote the overtly racist and homophobic direct-mail advertisement revealed yesterday by Reuters.

Even though his signature is on it.

Ron Paul’s campaign tells TPM that the presidential candidate did not write a signed direct mail piece in 1993 aimed at attracting subscribers to his newsletter by warning of a “coming race war” and a “federal-homosexual cover-up on AIDS.”

“Dr. Paul did not write that mail piece and disavows its content,” spokesman Jesse Benton said in an e-mail.

UPDATE at 12/23/11 10:15:48 am

And now we have another C-SPAN video in which Ron Paul touts his newsletters in 1987.

Youtube Video

Jump to bottom

170 comments
1 Sheila Broflovski  Fri, Dec 23, 2011 10:00:35am

He never disavowed any of the contents of any of his newsletters, he just says he already did and shut up.

2 ElCapitanAmerica  Fri, Dec 23, 2011 10:00:50am

OK, so Mr. Paul has to answer this then;

1) Who wrote this letter?
2) Did he financially benefit from this and similar type of letters?
3) What was his exact involvement with these news letters? Are we to believe he didn't read any of it but just collected the money?
4) Is that a forged signature? Shouldn't there be an investigation here?

3 allegro  Fri, Dec 23, 2011 10:02:47am

It's not my dick!

This is getting more ridiculous by the day.

4 zora  Fri, Dec 23, 2011 10:04:30am

if this were true, there would have been a lawsuit years ago. if someone wrote a turner diary style newsletter is my name, i would sue.

5 reloadingisnotahobby  Fri, Dec 23, 2011 10:06:07am

I've always signed shit I've seen , read or believed.....
...ALWAYS!!!///

6 lawhawk  Fri, Dec 23, 2011 10:06:47am
7 S'latch  Fri, Dec 23, 2011 10:07:05am

The questions I would ask would be (1) When did you first learn about this message bearing your signature? (2) When did you first "disavow" it? (3) What did you do to determine who put your name on it? (4) What did you do about it?

8 Sheila Broflovski  Fri, Dec 23, 2011 10:07:22am

The Fail that keeps on Failing.

9 reloadingisnotahobby  Fri, Dec 23, 2011 10:11:16am

...Well it is the Holidays!!

10 reloadingisnotahobby  Fri, Dec 23, 2011 10:11:57am

re: #7 Lawrence Schmerel

...and I'd like to hire the FORGER!!//

11 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Fri, Dec 23, 2011 10:12:23am

Do you know who needs to make a Christmas album (with new songs, not "old favorites"). U2.

Just saying.

12 Olsonist  Fri, Dec 23, 2011 10:12:31am

So boys and girls, what have we learned from this Ron Paul thing?

This meltdown is going to be fun. Yes, we already knew that but watching these guys faceplant never loses its comic appeal.

The news media doesn't do its job. It doesn't do its job until the opposition research hands it to them on a silver platter. Do you really think Gloria Borger did any research? CNN? No. Mitt's oppo team had this in their back pocket for quite some time and sprung it at the moment of maximum benefit. The modern media has become just a stenography pool.

Paulians are a cult. Remember when the Sandusky/Paterno scandal broke? Students rioted not against but in favor of a couple of criminals because they're good at football. Paulians are digging in as well.

13 Sheila Broflovski  Fri, Dec 23, 2011 10:15:26am

re: #11 EmmmieG

Do you know who needs to make a Christmas album (with new songs, not "old favorites"). U2.

Just saying.

We need a new "South Park" Christmas episode!

Even though it would be very hard to top "Woodland Critters"

14 Charles Johnson  Fri, Dec 23, 2011 10:16:30am

And now we have another C-SPAN video in which Ron Paul touts his newsletters in 1987.

15 makeitstop  Fri, Dec 23, 2011 10:17:47am

This newsletter thing should have DQ'd him from seeking the presidency when it was brought up last time. Hopefully, this time will do the trick.

Luap Nor, in a perfect world, would have been thoroughly discredited years ago. Better late than never, I say.

16 Mattand  Fri, Dec 23, 2011 10:18:19am

re: #12 Olsonist

So boys and girls, what have we learned from this Ron Paul thing?

This meltdown is going to be fun. Yes, we already knew that but watching these guys faceplant never loses its comic appeal.

The news media doesn't do its job. It doesn't do its job until the opposition research hands it to them on a silver platter. Do you really think Gloria Borger did any research? CNN? No. Mitt's oppo team had this in their back pocket for quite some time and sprung it at the moment of maximum benefit. The modern media has become just a stenography pool.

Paulian's are a cult. Remember when the Sandusky/Paterno scandal broke. Students rioted not against but in favor of a couple of criminals because they're good at football. Paulians are digging in as well.

You should see the meltdown the Paul crowd is having at TPM right now. Paraphrasing myself, what's amazing is that at best Paul allowed bigoted, racist comments to be connected to his name, implying consent.

And he wants to be President, despite the fact he's barely owning up to these facts.

And his supporters are apparently okay with this.

Given this lack of honesty and level of bigotry, I wouldn't trust this guy to edit a local penny saver, let alone run the country.

17 Eclectic Infidel  Fri, Dec 23, 2011 10:19:16am

Even if we indulge the luxury of giving Paul the benefit of the doubt, the fact that such newsletters bore his signature time and time again, renders the disavowing obsolete.

18 Mattand  Fri, Dec 23, 2011 10:20:27am

re: #14 Charles

And now we have another C-SPAN video in which Ron Paul touts his newsletters in 1987.

[Video]

Monthly internet connection: $40 a month.

Browser to watch CSPAN video: free

Watching someone who endorses racist comments in his newsletter get his ass handed to him: priceless.

19 Charles Johnson  Fri, Dec 23, 2011 10:20:56am

I got a flood of hate mail last night from Ron Paul cult members.

More than one tried to argue that it's impossible for a libertarian to be a racist, because libertarianism is the opposite of collectivism and racism is a form of collectivism.

These people actually seem to believe this ridiculous hooey.

20 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Dec 23, 2011 10:21:34am

re: #2 ElCapitanAmerica

OK, so Mr. Paul has to answer this then;

1) Who wrote this letter?
2) Did he financially benefit from this and similar type of letters?
3) What was his exact involvement with these news letters? Are we to believe he didn't read any of it but just collected the money?
4) Is that a forged signature? Shouldn't there be an investigation here?

All these denials gradually build up to a picture of a man who has spent twenty or thirty years surrounded by racists who write stuff that he signs without looking at it.

This is not a characteristic that makes me think, "Gee, he oughta be in the White House".

21 Mattand  Fri, Dec 23, 2011 10:21:35am

re: #17 eclectic infidel

Even if we indulge the luxury of giving Paul the benefit of the doubt, the fact that such newsletters bore his signature time and time again, renders the disavowing obsolete.

The Paul supporters are just completely ignoring this basic fact. The level of self-delusion is unreal.

22 Sheila Broflovski  Fri, Dec 23, 2011 10:21:56am

re: #14 Charles

And now we have another C-SPAN video in which Ron Paul touts his newsletters in 1987.

Just because he touts them doesn't mean he actually read any of them!

I think we need a Ron Paul font as well as a Moonbat font.

23 Surabaya Stew  Fri, Dec 23, 2011 10:23:38am

re: #17 eclectic infidel

Even if we indulge the luxury of giving Paul the benefit of the doubt, the fact that such newsletters bore his signature time and time again, renders the disavowing obsolete.

Correct. Ron Paul was either behind the newsletters in sprit or in practice OR he was being taken advantage of by others. From what we all know of the man, the latter can't be realistic; for all Luap Nor's faults, he's in control of himself and his words.

24 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Dec 23, 2011 10:23:48am

re: #16 mattand

You should see the meltdown the Paul crowd is having at TPM right now. Paraphrasing myself, what's amazing is that at best Paul allowed bigoted, racist comments to be connected to his name, implying consent.

And he wants to be President, despite the fact he's barely owning up to these facts.

And his supporters are apparently okay with this.

Given this lack of honesty and level of bigotry, I wouldn't trust this guy to edit a local penny saver, let alone run the country.

Last night, I watched as a Facebook friend took on some PaulBots. They're just not very creative. It's all "No he didn't. This is old news. He didn't. He didn't. It's all lies."

25 Olsonist  Fri, Dec 23, 2011 10:23:55am

re: #22 Alouette

I think we need a Ron Paul font as well as a Moonbat font.

Yes, it would automatically type everything backwards.

Sdrawkcab gnihtyreve epyt yllacitamotua dluow ti, sey.

26 Mattand  Fri, Dec 23, 2011 10:24:05am

re: #19 Charles

I got a flood of hate mail last night from Ron Paul cult members.

More than one tried to argue that it's impossible for a libertarian to be a racist, because libertarianism is the opposite of collectivism and racism is a form of collectivism.

These people actually seem to believe this ridiculous hooey.

The No True Libertarian logical fallacy.

27 Killgore Trout  Fri, Dec 23, 2011 10:25:02am

Peaceful OWS protesters rack up another casualty.
Man hurt in fight at Occupy camp is dead

The man found face down with no pulse, unconscious and not breathing Monday night in the Occupy Eugene camp has died.
...
Youngblood appeared to have been beaten and choked. He suffered multiple facial fractures, police said.

Youngblood got hurt in what police said was at least the fifth fight of the night in the camp. Police said alcohol was a factor, and that the struggle appeared to be "mutual combat."

28 lawhawk  Fri, Dec 23, 2011 10:25:06am

re: #22 Alouette

Whatever the font chosen, it would have to be gold plated (color code #FDD017 for instance)

29 Sheila Broflovski  Fri, Dec 23, 2011 10:25:18am

re: #19 Charles

I got a flood of hate mail last night from Ron Paul cult members.

More than one tried to argue that it's impossible for a libertarian to be a racist, because libertarianism is the opposite of collectivism and racism is a form of collectivism.

These people actually seem to believe this ridiculous hooey.

I thought "Objectivism" is the opposite of "Collectivism." Isn't "Collectivism" an Ayn Rand meme?

30 Surabaya Stew  Fri, Dec 23, 2011 10:26:38am

re: #19 Charles

I got a flood of hate mail last night from Ron Paul cult members.

More than one tried to argue that it's impossible for a libertarian to be a racist, because libertarianism is the opposite of collectivism and racism is a form of collectivism.

These people actually seem to believe this ridiculous hooey.

Of course! Its just like how dark-skinned people can't be ever racist and anybody Jewish is incapable of being an anti-semite. Right?
/

31 Mattand  Fri, Dec 23, 2011 10:26:41am

re: #22 Alouette

I think we need a Ron Paul font as well as a Moonbat font.

There was a politician character in the Pogo comic strip who spoke only in a circus/19th century poster font. I'm thinking that or that Art Deco face that's used for the Bioshock logo.

32 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Dec 23, 2011 10:27:50am

re: #19 Charles

I got a flood of hate mail last night from Ron Paul cult members.

More than one tried to argue that it's impossible for a libertarian to be a racist, because libertarianism is the opposite of collectivism and racism is a form of collectivism.

These people actually seem to believe this ridiculous hooey.

If he's such a great non-collectivist, how come his newsletters keep characterizing black people as being this and that?

//Forgot, he didn't write them, never saw them, disavowed them, and has no idea how his name got on them.

33 dragonath  Fri, Dec 23, 2011 10:28:15am

re: #31 mattand

P.T. Bridgeport!!

34 Mattand  Fri, Dec 23, 2011 10:29:42am

re: #33 dragonath

P.T. Bridgeport!!

Thanks! I should have known that. Walt Kelly; one of the greatest cartoonists no one remembers (outside of cartoon circles, anyways.) He'd be having a field day with the current GOP right now.

35 zora  Fri, Dec 23, 2011 10:30:23am

re: #22 Alouette

i like the moonbat font, but the ron paul font isn't crazy enough.

36 Gus  Fri, Dec 23, 2011 10:31:31am

BREAKING NEWS! Obama just wished the soldiers "happy holidays" instead of wishing them a Merry Christmas!!11ty

37 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Fri, Dec 23, 2011 10:32:32am

I guess it's a good thing that old video never dies; it just come back to haunt your crazy ass.

38 iossarian  Fri, Dec 23, 2011 10:32:42am

re: #36 Gus 802


OMG WHAT NEXT SOLDIERS WORSHIPPING FALSE GODS ITS THE END OH NOES

39 Bulworth  Fri, Dec 23, 2011 10:32:49am
The news media doesn't do its job. It doesn't do its job until the opposition research hands it to them on a silver platter. Do you really think Gloria Borger did any research? CNN? No. Mitt's oppo team had this in their back pocket for quite some time and sprung it at the moment of maximum benefit. The modern media has become just a stenography pool.

This

40 Darth Vader Gargoyle  Fri, Dec 23, 2011 10:33:02am

re: #19 Charles

I got a flood of hate mail last night from Ron Paul cult members.

More than one tried to argue that it's impossible for a libertarian to be a racist, because libertarianism is the opposite of collectivism and racism is a form of collectivism.

These people actually seem to believe this ridiculous hooey.

Plus they let black people use their bathrooms.
//

41 Sheila Broflovski  Fri, Dec 23, 2011 10:33:13am

re: #31 mattand

There was a politician character in the Pogo comic strip who spoke only in a circus/19th century poster font. I'm thinking that or that Art Deco face that's used for the Bioshock logo.

Maybe something like this?

42 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Fri, Dec 23, 2011 10:33:13am

re: #37 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I guess it's a good thing that old video never dies; it just come back to haunt your crazy ass.

Or your sisters post in on Facebook.

It's our job.

43 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Fri, Dec 23, 2011 10:33:26am

The more he denies, the more that comes out. It'd be funny, if the stuff wasn't so vile.

44 makeitstop  Fri, Dec 23, 2011 10:33:46am

re: #37 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I guess it's a good thing that old video never dies; it just come back to haunt your crazy ass prostate.

FTFY, Bad Lip Reading style.

45 Eclectic Infidel  Fri, Dec 23, 2011 10:33:53am

sorry folks, thought i knew the wingnut tag but alas..

46 Gus  Fri, Dec 23, 2011 10:33:58am

Exact quote was "the warmest holiday wishes".

47 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Fri, Dec 23, 2011 10:34:47am

re: #46 Gus 802

He said WARMEST and we all know the WARMEST place is hell so he MUST be the Anti-Christ!!!!11ty

48 dragonath  Fri, Dec 23, 2011 10:35:19am

I dunno why, but young(er) Ron Paul kinda reminds me of Shemp Howard.

49 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Fri, Dec 23, 2011 10:35:28am

re: #46 Gus 802

Exact quote was "the warmest holiday wishes".

GLOBAL WARMING!

(It's 50 degrees in the mountains of SW VA)

50 Gus  Fri, Dec 23, 2011 10:35:32am

re: #47 Dreggas

He said WARMEST and we all know the WARMEST place is hell so he MUST be the Anti-Christ!!!11ty

Clearly it was a sekrit message to the Warmingists™!

51 reloadingisnotahobby  Fri, Dec 23, 2011 10:35:51am

[Link: www.bing.com...]re: #41 Alouette

[Link: www.bing.com...]
...or this??

52 Sheila Broflovski  Fri, Dec 23, 2011 10:37:17am

re: #51 reloadingisnotahobby

[Link: www.bing.com...]

[Link: www.bing.com...]
...or this??

You know, that actually looks a lot like Ron Paul!

53 iossarian  Fri, Dec 23, 2011 10:38:02am

OK, I'm going to get going. Sporadic access at best over the next few weeks (I hope, since that would mean that my plan to indulge orgiastically in beer, fried food and sparsely-attended bowl games is being successfully executed).

Great times all round to one and all!

54 Darth Vader Gargoyle  Fri, Dec 23, 2011 10:38:32am

Howdy Honcos from Iowa, where my folks are being inundated with caucus ca ca.

I have a mailing here from Luap Nor that is filled to the brim with crazy disorganized thoughts. I told my folks my prediction that he will win the caucus since Paulbots will be more willing to brave the January cold to vote than most.

Should be interesting...

55 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Dec 23, 2011 10:39:18am

re: #30 Surabaya Stew

Of course! Its just like how dark-skinned people can't be ever racist and anybody Jewish is incapable of being an anti-semite. Right?
/

Especially if these people are good friends of yours. Yes.

56 lawhawk  Fri, Dec 23, 2011 10:39:21am

An attempt to justify the language of the newsletters by Dave Weigel at Slate. I think he comes off poorly there (both Paul and Weigel). Excusing the inexcuasable and while Weigel might have a point that the direct mail language may have been farmed out - how could Paul not know what was going out under his name? And where were the retractions and disapproval of those racist and biased statements concurrent to when they ran.

Had this been one newsletter, you could make a valid argument that this was the work of someone else. But a series of newsletters, all with Paul's name and signature attached? That strains credulity.

57 wrenchwench  Fri, Dec 23, 2011 10:39:25am

Re: Jesse Benton:

From May, 2010, when Jesse Benton was working for Rand Paul, son of Ron:

Rand Paul’s new spokesperson/campaign manager/nephew, Jesse Benton, is quite skilled at apologizing for racists.

Also from May, 2010:

Why does Rand Paul’s new campaign manager work with a white supremacist?

Nothing really new there, just the racist connections of the Campaign for Liberty, which was founded by Ron Paul.

58 darthstar  Fri, Dec 23, 2011 10:40:23am

I'm pissed off at Ron Paul for taking us from the glory days of 9-9-9 in this presidential campaign and dropping us into the more traditional American tradition of open bigotry and subsequent denial. I know, it's Christmas...and this is what politicians do at this time of the year.

59 Gus  Fri, Dec 23, 2011 10:40:58am

Let's see. I'm trying to decide whether to join my local Ron Paul group or join Scientology. They both offer me the same social benefits.

//

60 Darth Vader Gargoyle  Fri, Dec 23, 2011 10:41:28am

re: #59 Gus 802

Let's see. I'm trying to decide whether to join my local Ron Paul group or join Scientology. They both offer me the same social benefits.

//

I think Scientology is more grounded in reality.

61 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Dec 23, 2011 10:41:32am

re: #56 lawhawk

An attempt to justify the language of the newsletters by Dave Weigel at Slate. I think he comes off poorly there (both Paul and Weigel). Excusing the inexcuasable and while Weigel might have a point that the direct mail language may have been farmed out - how could Paul not know what was going out under his name? And where were the retractions and disapproval of those racist and biased statements concurrent to when they ran.

Had this been one newsletter, you could make a valid argument that this was the work of someone else. But a series of newsletters, all with Paul's name and signature attached? That strains credulity.

Sure. If there was one newsletter, I could shrug and say OK, maybe he learned his lesson, maybe it really was an error--but this is like a life's work of racist nattering here.

62 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Fri, Dec 23, 2011 10:41:42am

re: #54 rwdflynavy

I have a mailing here from Luap Nor that is filled to the brim with crazy disorganized thoughts. I told my folks my prediction that he will win the caucus since Paulbots will be more willing to brave the January cold to vote than most.

I'm guessing that his mailings read like the religious tracts... ALL OVER THE PLACE... tiny lettering so they can fit more words on the page. Occasional red letters for emphasis...

63 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Dec 23, 2011 10:41:48am

re: #59 Gus 802

Let's see. I'm trying to decide whether to join my local Ron Paul group or join Scientology. They both offer me the same social benefits.

//

I think Ron Paul is cheaper.

64 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Dec 23, 2011 10:42:11am

re: #62 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I'm guessing that his mailings read like the religious tracts... ALL OVER THE PLACE... tiny lettering so they can fit more words on the page. Occasional red letters for emphasis...

Like a malign Dr. Bronner.

65 Gus  Fri, Dec 23, 2011 10:42:21am

re: #60 rwdflynavy

I think Scientology is more grounded in reality.

L. Ron Paul approves.

//

66 Gus  Fri, Dec 23, 2011 10:43:41am
67 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Fri, Dec 23, 2011 10:47:33am

I had an appointment a few years back with a Mennonite minister and his wife. I asked about the little bonnets that the women wear. He esplained a little bit about it and said he'd mail me some information.

He sent me a "pamphlet" that must have been 40 pages long.

It read like stereo instructions.

I'm guessing that's what Uncle Ron's stuff looks like.

68 wrenchwench  Fri, Dec 23, 2011 10:50:41am

re: #56 lawhawk

An attempt to justify the language of the newsletters by Dave Weigel at Slate. I think he comes off poorly there (both Paul and Weigel). Excusing the inexcuasable and while Weigel might have a point that the direct mail language may have been farmed out - how could Paul not know what was going out under his name? And where were the retractions and disapproval of those racist and biased statements concurrent to when they ran.

Had this been one newsletter, you could make a valid argument that this was the work of someone else. But a series of newsletters, all with Paul's name and signature attached? That strains credulity.

The guy who still has Steve Sailer on his personal blog roll does not surprise me when he says

The reason is that paleo-libertarianism is not a social justice philosophy. It's an individualist philosophy. Get government out of the way, and people will treat each other well. Redistribute wealth and you get resentment and dependence. In 2011, you can describe this as an anti-racist philosophy.

and

Should a candidate be defined by his worst supporters? I don't think so. There were black racists, like the New Black Panther Party idiots, who supported Barack Obama in 2008 because they assumed he would distribute wealth and power away from white people. Barack Obama doesn't have to answer for them. But for part of his career, Paul's political network made an explicit, I'm-with-you appeal to racist whites. Paul's ghostwriter explained why his philosophy would give them the America they wanted.

69 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Dec 23, 2011 10:51:26am

re: #67 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I had an appointment a few years back with a Mennonite minister and his wife. I asked about the little bonnets that the women wear. He esplained a little bit about it and said he'd mail me some information.

He sent me a "pamphlet" that must have been 40 pages long.

It read like stereo instructions.

I'm guessing that's what Uncle Ron's stuff looks like.

There's a Terry Pratchett character, Constable Visit. His full name is Visit-The-Infidel-With-Explanatory-Pamphlets.

70 Romantic Heretic  Fri, Dec 23, 2011 10:52:52am

re: #19 Charles

I got a flood of hate mail last night from Ron Paul cult members.

More than one tried to argue that it's impossible for a libertarian to be a racist, because libertarianism is the opposite of collectivism and racism is a form of collectivism.

These people actually seem to believe this ridiculous hooey.

You're encountering one of the main reasons that they chose the label of 'libertarian'. If you attack them you attack liberty. Which means you must be evil.

The best way to win a debate is to lay out the playing field and goal posts before you start.

71 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Fri, Dec 23, 2011 10:53:00am

re: #69 SanFranciscoZionist

There's a Terry Pratchett character, Constable Visit. His full name is Visit-The-Infidel-With-Explanatory-Pamphlets.

Guess what he does in his spare time?

72 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Fri, Dec 23, 2011 10:54:18am

I have zero intention of voting for Ron Paul. This is why I have zero intention of reading the newsletters.

I do find it irritating that the press didn't pay attention or publicize this until now. Their job is not to look good on camera; it's to find information.

73 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Dec 23, 2011 10:54:25am

re: #71 EmmmieG

Guess what he does in his spare time?

Omnia now exports many evangelical preachers, some of them are priests, but many of them are ordinary citizens. People of other countries still do not like Omnians in general. People who have not kept up with the news think that Omnians still set fire to non-Omnians (see Carpe Jugulum). People who have kept up with the news are fed up with getting a pamphlet every day from their Omnian-immigrant neighbour (see the article on an exemplary emigrant, Visit-the-Infidel-with-Explanatory-Pamphlets, who currently lives in Ankh-Morpork).

74 wrenchwench  Fri, Dec 23, 2011 10:54:59am

Campaign for Liberty has videos by this guy posted. Look where else he posts and publishes:

Thomas Woods archive at LewRockwell.com
Thomas Woods media archive at Mises.org
Thomas Woods archive at TakiMag.com
Thomas Woods archive at HumanEvents.com
Thomas Woods archive at Independent.org
Thomas Woods archive at ISI.org
The Catholic Church: Builder of Civilization

But to people like Weigel, that's just "Paul's political network", for which he is not responsible.

75 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Dec 23, 2011 10:55:51am

re: #71 EmmmieG

Guess what he does in his spare time?

He has a preaching buddy, Smite. That's short for Smite-The-Unbeliever-With-Cunning Arguments.

76 Romantic Heretic  Fri, Dec 23, 2011 10:59:37am

re: #31 mattand

There was a politician character in the Pogo comic strip who spoke only in a circus/19th century poster font. I'm thinking that or that Art Deco face that's used for the Bioshock logo.

P. T. Bridgeport was the circus guy.

The Deacon was the Goth.

Pogo was the greatest comic strip of the 20th Century in my opinion.

77 Mattand  Fri, Dec 23, 2011 11:00:05am

re: #41 Alouette

Maybe something like this?

I was thinking more along the lines of this. Not quite the Bioshock font, but it puts me in an Ayn Rand frame of mine.

78 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Fri, Dec 23, 2011 11:00:11am

re: #75 SanFranciscoZionist

He has a preaching buddy, Smite. That's short for Smite-The-Unbeliever-With-Cunning Arguments.

The best part is when he and the golem get to argue theology.

This is, of course, only funny if you understand Dorfl.

79 Killgore Trout  Fri, Dec 23, 2011 11:02:25am
80 Eclectic Infidel  Fri, Dec 23, 2011 11:03:01am

For those interested,

Critiques of Libertarianism

Old school Internet site dedicated to debunking libertarian ideology.

81 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Fri, Dec 23, 2011 11:06:08am

re: #79 Killgore Trout

Wasn't there a kerfuffle a few years ago about that with someone else?

82 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Fri, Dec 23, 2011 11:07:00am

re: #79 Killgore Trout

Romney won’t release tax return if he’s GOP nomination

I wasn't aware it was voluntary.

Nixon did it first because of some allegations. Eisenhower was furious with him (Nixon was the VP nominee) because the Eisenhowers had gotten in the habit of being stingy with their donations while in the military, and he didn't want to show his tax returns.

I don't think Kerry did it, either.

83 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Fri, Dec 23, 2011 11:07:43am

Good King Wenceslas looked out
On the Feast of Stephen
No one could pronounce his name
He decided to get even...

84 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Fri, Dec 23, 2011 11:09:57am

re: #82 EmmmieG

I was thinking of Kerry. Thanks.

85 chunkymonkey  Fri, Dec 23, 2011 11:59:47am

re: #19 Charles

I got a flood of hate mail last night from Ron Paul cult members.

More than one tried to argue that it's impossible for a libertarian to be a racist, because libertarianism is the opposite of collectivism and racism is a form of collectivism.

These people actually seem to believe this ridiculous hooey.

That's an Ayn Rand idea FWIW. She wrote

Racism is the lowest, most crudely primitive form of collectivism. It is the notion of ascribing moral, social or political significance to a man's genetic lineage -- the notion that a man's intellectual and characterological traits are produced and transmitted by his internal body chemistry. Which means, in practice, that a man is to be judged, not by his own character and actions, but by the characters and actions of a collective of ancestors.

I've also noticed that you use what I consider to be an overly broad definition of race in the course of declaring a person or comment is racist, similar to what the UN uses when it refers to "racial discrimination." I tend more toward the narrower definition in which race, in which race and racism are entirely genetic. Both of these definitions are colloquial and subjective. Neither of these definitions is supported by scientists and the whole thing is really up in the air.

So, for example, while anti-Arab or anti-Muslim or anti-Christian or anti-Canadian sentiments might be really crappy, they aren't racist per se, because Arab, Muslim, Christian, and Canadian aren't races.

86 Obdicut  Fri, Dec 23, 2011 12:05:35pm

re: #85 chunkymonkey

In what way is Arab not a race, if you're going to go by genetic?

And why on earth would racism be limited by what's purely genetic? Racism against blacks isn't mediated by how much white ancestry they have.

87 Varek Raith  Fri, Dec 23, 2011 12:10:29pm

re: #85 chunkymonkey

Apologists like you piss me off.

88 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Dec 23, 2011 12:11:17pm

"I don't see race, I just see people. Like the amazingly-fleet-footed black people who keep stealing my wallet!"

//:)

89 Idle Drifter  Fri, Dec 23, 2011 12:12:17pm

re: #85 chunkymonkey

A spade is a spade. An articulate asshole is still an asshole.

90 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Dec 23, 2011 12:12:36pm

re: #88 SanFranciscoZionist

"I don't see race, I just see people. Like the amazingly-fleet-footed black people who keep stealing my wallet!"

//:)

That phrase just makes me want to cheer for the muggers, which is probably not the idea.

"Run! Run, fleet-footed wallet-grabber! Have a good time with Ron Paul's money!"

91 chunkymonkey  Fri, Dec 23, 2011 12:13:55pm

re: #86 Obdicut

In what way is Arab not a race, if you're going to go by genetic?

Ask wikipedia.

And why on earth would racism be limited by what's purely genetic? Racism against blacks isn't mediated by how much white ancestry they have.

Correct, it's a function of how black one is, not how white, and anything more than zero apparently counts. That form of racism is geared toward appearance more than anything. In fact, classic American white against black racism as depicted in books and movies, and that you might see at a backwater KKK, skinhead/neo-nazi rally is the most ignorant and sub-human form I know of. In this case one of their own members could appear white, and as long as they were culturally the same, the ignoramuses would never know the difference or care as long as they never knew the truth. Why do you think members of the KKK all wear dunce caps?

92 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, Dec 23, 2011 12:14:29pm

re: #85 chunkymonkey

Uh, no, when it comes to the issue of racism, the distinction between ethnicity and race is so minimal (although not non-existent) that specialists writing about racism don't distinguish racial and ethnic groups for this purpose. What you're saying is that antisemitism is not racism since Jews are not a race but ethnicity, although that, of course, is ridiculous, since antisemitism is acknowledged as a form of racism.

Anti-Muslim or anti-Christian sentiments per se are not racist, although they may serve as a cover for racist sentiments.

"Canadian" is not an ethnic group.

93 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Dec 23, 2011 12:16:21pm

re: #91 chunkymonkey

Ask wikipedia.

And why on earth would racism be limited by what's purely genetic? Racism against blacks isn't mediated by how much white ancestry they have.

Correct, it's a function of how black one is, not how white, and anything more than zero apparently counts. That form of racism is geared toward appearance more than anything. In fact, classic American white against black racism as depicted in books and movies, and that you might see at a backwater KKK, skinhead/neo-nazi rally is the most ignorant and sub-human form I know of. In this case one of their own members could appear white, and as long as they were culturally the same, the ignoramuses would never know the difference or care as long as they never knew the truth. Why do you think members of the KKK all wear dunce caps?

I think Chappelle did this one better.

94 Obdicut  Fri, Dec 23, 2011 12:18:45pm

re: #91 chunkymonkey

Ask wikipedia.

I asked you, jackass. Explain how they're not a race in the same way any other so-called 'race' is.

Correct, it's a function of how black one is, not how white, and anything more than zero apparently counts.

So it's not just genetics. Obviously. Because someone could be 7/8ths genetically 'white', and they wouldn't be seen as any better by the racists than someone who was 1/8th genetically 'white.'

95 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Dec 23, 2011 12:26:21pm

re: #94 Obdicut

So it's not just genetics. Obviously. Because someone could be 7/8ths genetically 'white', and they wouldn't be seen as any better by the racists than someone who was 1/8th genetically 'white.'

Racism, no matter how hard we try, does not operate by rules that can be linked back to scientific understanding of human variance in any sensible way. That's because racism is a social phenomenon.

Like pornography, most of us know it when we see it.

For those who are unclear, there's this. This guy will tell you if shit is racist. He's very good.

Also, his readers have helpfully created a special word for white people that only they are allowed to say. Everyone else has to say "the Y-word". This was developed to comfort the number of people whose lives were simply being ruined, to judge by their questions, because they weren't allowed to say the N-word aloud.

96 Obdicut  Fri, Dec 23, 2011 12:29:28pm

re: #95 SanFranciscoZionist

That site is friggin' hilarious.

97 Varek Raith  Fri, Dec 23, 2011 12:30:56pm

re: #96 Obdicut

That site is friggin' hilarious.

Yo, NASA is all good, those motherfuckers drink Tang in outer space.

98 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Dec 23, 2011 12:33:41pm

re: #96 Obdicut

That site is friggin' hilarious.

re: #97 Varek Raith

Yo, NASA is all good, those motherfuckers drink Tang in outer space.

Asked how he knows what's racist and what's not, he serenely responds: "Because I'm a motherfucking genius."

99 chunkymonkey  Fri, Dec 23, 2011 12:37:56pm

re: #94 Obdicut

I asked you, jackass. Explain how they're not a race in the same way any other so-called 'race' is.

Jackass, eh? That Wikipedia page is all about Arabs. I had a labmate in college who was Arab, but he was also whiter than me and had red hair. You'd never know he was Arab if he didn't tell you. I don't even think he spoke Arab, had no accent of any kind, just looked a lot like Archie.

In fact, one could be of 100% Swedish genetic origin, and be Arab if raised in an Arab culture by Arab parents who speak Arab. So if another Swede hated this hypothetical Swedish/Arab fellow because he was Arab, would he be racist?

So it's not just genetics. Obviously. Because someone could be 7/8ths genetically 'white', and they wouldn't be seen as any better by the racists than someone who was 1/8th genetically 'white.'

Right, because racists like that are haters, and anything other than pure, apparently, isn't good enough. How is that not "just genetics?"

100 Obdicut  Fri, Dec 23, 2011 12:39:31pm

re: #99 chunkymonkey

In fact, one could be of 100% Swedish genetic origin, and be Arab if raised in an Arab culture by Arab parents who speak Arab. So if another Swede hated this hypothetical Swedish/Arab fellow because he was Arab, would he be racist?

Could one be Swedish if one were of 100% Arab genetic origin?

Right, because racists like that are haters, and anything other than pure, apparently, isn't good enough. How is that not "just genetics?"

Pure what?

101 Obdicut  Fri, Dec 23, 2011 12:41:52pm

re: #99 chunkymonkey

Right, because racists like that are haters, and anything other than pure, apparently, isn't good enough. How is that not "just genetics?"

Or: Because genetics doesn't work that way.

102 chunkymonkey  Fri, Dec 23, 2011 12:47:47pm

re: #100 Obdicut

Could one be Swedish if one were of 100% Arab genetic origin?

Beats the heck out of me. Depends on who you ask. In this case, ask a Swede... I'm not on their team so I don't get to decide who gets in.

Pure what?

Pure whatever BS they're going for. I don't know, the whole race/racist thing is worn out.

You know, unlike someone here I know, I voted for Obama. I was hoping that would help questions of race and racism go away but apparently it's just getting worse all the time. Will it ever end?

I for one vote that ONLY mixed "race" marriages be allowed in order to speed up the melting process. The sooner we're all one "race," the better.

103 BeenHereAwhile  Fri, Dec 23, 2011 12:50:05pm

re: #76 Romantic Heretic

#31 mattand
'There was a politician character in the Pogo comic strip who spoke only in a circus/19th century poster font.'

P. T. Bridgeport was the circus guy.

The Deacon was the Goth.

Pogo was the greatest comic strip of the 20th Century in my opinion.

"I'D WRITE MY CONGRESSMAN, IF I COULD ONLY WRITE AND HE COULD ONLY READ."

104 Obdicut  Fri, Dec 23, 2011 12:50:33pm

re: #102 chunkymonkey

Beats the heck out of me. Depends on who you ask. In this case, ask a Swede... I'm not on their team so I don't get to decide who gets in.

We're talking about your claims, dude. You're the one making assertions that race is just a genetic thing, and yet now you somehow can't answer whether or not someone could be "Swedish"-- something you defined as genetics-- and be Arab-- something you said wasn't genetic. Your argument is just smoke.

Pure whatever BS they're going for. I don't know, the whole race/racist thing is worn out.

And yet you're trying to make claims about it. Pick one: Either come here to explain how racism is just about genetics, or claim you don't understand racism, don't try to do both. Makes you look idiotic.

I for one vote that ONLY mixed "race" marriages be allowed in order to speed up the melting process. The sooner we're all one "race," the better.

We're already only one race, jackass. I'm going to assume your stupid suggestion was just a troll, though, and you don't honestly think that way.

105 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Dec 23, 2011 12:52:44pm

re: #102 chunkymonkey

Beats the heck out of me. Depends on who you ask. In this case, ask a Swede... I'm not on their team so I don't get to decide who gets in.

Pure whatever BS they're going for. I don't know, the whole race/racist thing is worn out.

You know, unlike someone here I know, I voted for Obama. I was hoping that would help questions of race and racism go away but apparently it's just getting worse all the time. Will it ever end?

I for one vote that ONLY mixed "race" marriages be allowed in order to speed up the melting process. The sooner we're all one "race," the better.

OK, so let's get back on topic--what do you make of the Ron Paul newsletters?

106 Varek Raith  Fri, Dec 23, 2011 12:56:15pm

re: #102 chunkymonkey

WTF.

107 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Dec 23, 2011 1:05:04pm

re: #106 Varek Raith

WTF.

Ditto. Not sure what the hell we're arguing for or against here.

108 Obdicut  Fri, Dec 23, 2011 1:10:26pm

re: #107 SanFranciscoZionist

Ditto. Not sure what the hell we're arguing for or against here.

This is the same bright mind that has brought us this.

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

Saying that Mexicans behave like Mexicans is not a smear any more than saying that Americans behave like Americans. For specific examples, not learning English and waving Mexican flags in the USA. I wouldn't wave an American flag in Mexico, unless it was at a sporting event and I was visiting. If I was an immigrant to Mexico, I'd damn sure wave the Mexican flag. I wouldn't fault Mexicans for getting irritated at American immigrants behaving that way either.

Because everyone knows waving flags of other countries is so unAmerican.

Image: Saint-Patricks-Day-Parade-631.jpg

Image: polish-parade.jpg

Image: image.JPG

109 chunkymonkey  Fri, Dec 23, 2011 1:12:20pm

re: #104 Obdicut

We're talking about your claims, dude. You're the one making assertions that race is just a genetic thing...

I did no such thing. You need to re-read what I wrote if that's what you believe. I wrote that I tended toward that definition, not that I subscribed to it.

...and yet now you somehow can't answer whether or not someone could be "Swedish"-- something you defined as genetics-- and be Arab-- something you said wasn't genetic. Your argument is just smoke.

Because it's not my argument. Swedish, just like Arab, can mean a lot of things. Are you talking about the "Swedish" culture, race, people, meatballs, cars, sing-song manner of speaking, what? Is Swedish even a race? You're question was entirely ambiguous, so don't get upset with me if you don't like the answer.

And yet you're trying to make claims about it. Pick one: Either come here to explain how racism is just about genetics, or claim you don't understand racism, don't try to do both. Makes you look idiotic.

Someone looks idiotic.

We're already only one race, jackass. I'm going to assume your stupid suggestion was just a troll, though, and you don't honestly think that way.

We're already one race, then how can anyone be racist? It was mostly just a gag, but deep down I freeking hate the time that is wasted on issues of race. If I woke up tomorrow and there were none, I'd be very pleased.

110 chunkymonkey  Fri, Dec 23, 2011 1:14:18pm

re: #108 Obdicut

This is the same bright mind that has brought us this.

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

Because everyone knows waving flags of other countries is so unAmerican.

Oh yeah, that was dumb. I love flag waving, what the heck was I thinking?

111 Obdicut  Fri, Dec 23, 2011 1:15:00pm

re: #109 chunkymonkey

I did no such thing. You need to re-read what I wrote if that's what you believe. I wrote that I tended toward that definition, not that I subscribed to it.

So what does it mean to 'tend' towards it? What's your definition of race?

We're already one race, then how can anyone be racist?

By making up this concept called 'race', which is culturally, and not genetically, mediated. As can be shown that the racism towards a black person who is mostly 'white' genetically is not any less than that towards someone who is mostly 'black' genetically.

112 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Dec 23, 2011 1:15:12pm

re: #109 chunkymonkey

We're already one race, then how can anyone be racist? It was mostly just a gag, but deep down I freeking hate the time that is wasted on issues of race. If I woke up tomorrow and there were none, I'd be very pleased.

So, once again, since you hate all the time wasted 'on issues of race', what are your thoughts about a man running for the GOP nomination who has this sort of a history of racist drek trailing behind him? I get that you really want to finesse race until it no longer means anything, but Ron Paul means something quite specific when he talks about criminal black people.

113 Obdicut  Fri, Dec 23, 2011 1:16:06pm

re: #110 chunkymonkey

Oh yeah, that was dumb. I love flag waving, what the heck was I thinking?

You were really upset about people 'acting Mexican', that's what you were thinking.

Which is rather transparent.

114 chunkymonkey  Fri, Dec 23, 2011 1:20:32pm

re: #105 SanFranciscoZionist

OK, so let's get back on topic--what do you make of the Ron Paul newsletters?

What about them? Did he write them? Don't know. Are they racist and homophobic? Haven't read them, don't know. Who's policies do I prefer most? The left wing bank party or the right wing bank party or Ron "Crazy Uncle" Paul? You know, when faced with a shitty set of alternatives like that, who the hell cares?

The great Berkeley Breathed knows best.

115 Obdicut  Fri, Dec 23, 2011 1:23:22pm

re: #114 chunkymonkey

If you don't care about the topic, why post? Just to say "Who cares?"

116 chunkymonkey  Fri, Dec 23, 2011 1:26:53pm

re: #115 Obdicut

If you don't care about the topic, why post? Just to say "Who cares?"

Among the sub-topics or sub-themes are race and racism, about which I was commenting. My point is that to Charles, and apparently you, are keen to over apply the term racist. It's a fault because it waters down the meaning and effect when the claim is made. When everything is racist, nothing is.

117 Obdicut  Fri, Dec 23, 2011 1:29:52pm

re: #116 chunkymonkey

Among the sub-topics or sub-themes are race and racism, about which I was commenting. My point is that to Charles, and apparently you, are keen to over apply the term racist. It's a fault because it waters down the meaning and effect when the claim is made. When everything is racist, nothing is.

So let's hear that definition of 'racist' from you, then, and show how it's being used too broadly. So far, you've denied that Arab is a race, but said that Swedish is-- can you explain how Swedish is a race in a way that "Arab" isn't?

118 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Dec 23, 2011 1:30:33pm

re: #114 chunkymonkey

What about them? Did he write them? Don't know. Are they racist and homophobic? Haven't read them, don't know. Who's policies do I prefer most? The left wing bank party or the right wing bank party or Ron "Crazy Uncle" Paul? You know, when faced with a shitty set of alternatives like that, who the hell cares?

The great Berkeley Breathed knows best.

So, basically, you don't care about Paul, or the election, but dropped in to mention that we're, like, totally missing the point, because race is a construct, man? Or something?

119 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Dec 23, 2011 1:32:11pm

re: #116 chunkymonkey

Among the sub-topics or sub-themes are race and racism, about which I was commenting. My point is that to Charles, and apparently you, are keen to over apply the term racist. It's a fault because it waters down the meaning and effect when the claim is made. When everything is racist, nothing is.

But this is all rather hypothetical, since we're talking about a very specific situation, which you either agree is racist, or isn't. Since you clearly state that you have no interest in the documents in question, how can you possibly tell that we're watering down, and over keen to apply, the term racist to Ron Paul's appalling newsletters?

120 Obdicut  Fri, Dec 23, 2011 1:32:38pm

re: #118 SanFranciscoZionist

Ah, but he 'tends' towards the 'more narrow' definition "in which race and racism are entirely genetic." So you've gotta factor that in, too.

Somehow.

121 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Dec 23, 2011 1:35:02pm

re: #120 Obdicut

Ah, but he 'tends' towards the 'more narrow' definition "in which race and racism are entirely genetic." So you've gotta factor that in, too.

Somehow.

Race isn't entirely genetic, and racism isn't genetic at all. Thank God, otherwise I would be a quarter bigot.

122 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Dec 23, 2011 1:36:51pm

re: #121 SanFranciscoZionist

Race isn't entirely genetic, and racism isn't genetic at all. Thank God, otherwise I would be a quarter bigot.

And my poor husband...best not to consider it.

123 Obdicut  Fri, Dec 23, 2011 1:39:05pm

re: #121 SanFranciscoZionist

Race isn't entirely genetic, and racism isn't genetic at all. Thank God, otherwise I would be a quarter bigot.

There just isn't any coherent definition of race. It's not something that matters to anyone but a racist, nailing down exactly what a 'race' is.

124 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Dec 23, 2011 1:43:24pm

re: #123 Obdicut

There just isn't any coherent definition of race. It's not something that matters to anyone but a racist, nailing down exactly what a 'race' is.

Tends to be used in goofy ways. People sometimes try to explain to me why Israel and the Palestinians should LIKE each other by looking at me with big pleading eyes and explaining that both groups are Semites (did I KNOW that????)...but these same folks would never understand a reverse question about how both WWI and WWII could have been fought, given that Germans and French look like the same people to an outsider.

125 chunkymonkey  Fri, Dec 23, 2011 1:45:21pm

re: #117 Obdicut

So let's hear that definition of 'racist' from you, then, and show how it's being used too broadly. So far, you've denied that Arab is a race, but said that Swedish is-- can you explain how Swedish is a race in a way that "Arab" isn't?

I've got $100 for you if you can prove that I "said" that "Swedish" is a race.

126 Obdicut  Fri, Dec 23, 2011 1:46:08pm

re: #124 SanFranciscoZionist

Hee hee. Yeah, the 'semite' thing is one of the best ways of demonstrating the failure of 'race' as a concept, but unfortunately it's generally used in a special pleading sense. And yeah, hate the hidden racism of the assertion that they should like each other based on a shared genetic background, as if that's how humans work-- or should work.

127 Obdicut  Fri, Dec 23, 2011 1:47:07pm

re: #125 chunkymonkey

I've got $100 for you if you can prove that I "said" that "Swedish" is a race.

You said someone was 100% genetically Swedish. Can you explain what that means, if Swedish is not a race? What is "Swedish" to you, that one can belong to genetically, if not a race?

128 chunkymonkey  Fri, Dec 23, 2011 1:47:51pm

re: #123 Obdicut

There just isn't any coherent definition of race. It's not something that matters to anyone but a racist, nailing down exactly what a 'race' is.

I agree with you, sort of. Makes it hard to define "racist." Here, it seems that a racist is anyone.

129 Obdicut  Fri, Dec 23, 2011 1:49:58pm

re: #128 chunkymonkey

I agree with you, sort of. Makes it hard to define "racist." Here, it seems that a racist is anyone.

No, it makes it very easy to define a racist; a racist is someone who thinks race exists. A worse racist is one who thinks that race exists and is important to talk about a lot.

130 theheat  Fri, Dec 23, 2011 1:52:50pm

What a shitweasel.

131 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Dec 23, 2011 1:53:08pm

re: #128 chunkymonkey

I agree with you, sort of. Makes it hard to define "racist." Here, it seems that a racist is anyone.

Nope. That's your interpretation of people not being impressed with your college sophomore 'blow your mind, race is an illusion' nonsense. But Ron Paul does appear to be.

132 chunkymonkey  Fri, Dec 23, 2011 1:53:57pm

re: #127 Obdicut

You said someone was 100% genetically Swedish. Can you explain what that means, if Swedish is not a race? What is "Swedish" to you, that one can belong to genetically, if not a race?

This was a "hypothetical," far as I could tell. What if I was writing about unicorn farts, would you assume that I thought unicorns were real? I have no idea if it's possible for someone to be 100% genetically Swedish. For the love of Pete, and I do love him, argh!!!

133 Obdicut  Fri, Dec 23, 2011 1:55:25pm

re: #132 chunkymonkey

I have no idea if it's possible for someone to be 100% genetically Swedish.

Then why did you say:

In fact, one could be of 100% Swedish genetic origin, and be Arab if raised in an Arab culture by Arab parents who speak Arab.

If you don't think one could be of 100% Swedish genetic origin?

134 chunkymonkey  Fri, Dec 23, 2011 1:56:50pm

re: #129 Obdicut

No, it makes it very easy to define a racist; a racist is someone who thinks race exists. A worse racist is one who thinks that race exists and is important to talk about a lot.

So I'm not a racist if I don't think race exists? What if I'm not sure that it exists and I also don't care if it exists? Close enough?

Then does it matter if I "think it is important to talk about it a lot?" What if it's in response to someone else who started talking about racism and the only reason you brought it up was to understand what racism is in terms of race?

135 Obdicut  Fri, Dec 23, 2011 1:59:53pm

re: #134 chunkymonkey

So I'm not a racist if I don't think race exists? What if I'm not sure that it exists and I also don't care if it exists? Close enough?

It's a dumb position, but sure, you're not a racist, then.

What if it's in response to someone else who started talking about racism and the only reason you brought it up was to understand what racism is in terms of race?

That's the point. Racism exists, independently of whether race actually exists as a coherent thing.

136 chunkymonkey  Fri, Dec 23, 2011 2:00:15pm

re: #133 Obdicut

Then why did you say:

If you don't think one could be of 100% Swedish genetic origin?

So I did, damn. Well, that's not exactly what I meant. I was trying to write in fewer words that "someone could be otherwise obviously, say, of Swedish origin in terms of appearance and ancestry."

137 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Dec 23, 2011 2:01:10pm

Look, redheaded Swedish Arabs, check.

Doesn't care if Ron Paul wrote the newsletters, check.

We're obsessed with race, and say everyone's racist, but can't give a clear example or argument about this from, say, this thread. Check.

Look, dude, my takeaway here is that Ron Paul is racist as hell, or spends a lot of time in the company of those who are. You don't seem to want to address that, and are now throwing up walls of hypothetical questions and clever disclaimers about how Charles and the posters here feel about race in your imagination.

Argue on topic or let it gooooo.

138 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Dec 23, 2011 2:01:58pm

"Redheaded Swedish Arabs" would be a good name for a band. It would be better if the band actually included a couple of redheaded Swedish Arabs, of course.

139 Obdicut  Fri, Dec 23, 2011 2:04:24pm

re: #136 chunkymonkey

How are those statements different? What does it mean to be obviously of 'Swedish' origin in appearance and ancestry?

This person is Swedish:

Image: 1998pcimg2846.jpg

What is 'Swedish' to you? How is it defined, that it has an 'appearance' that can be obvious?

140 wrenchwench  Fri, Dec 23, 2011 2:06:37pm

re: #95 SanFranciscoZionist

For those who are unclear, there's this. This guy will tell you if shit is racist. He's very good.

I found one for our chunky friend:

Anonymous asked:

Yo, is it racist for me to just quietly sit in the corner of my room? This blog makes me afraid that anaything else I do is offensive to somebody somewhere.

Yo, you don’t pull that tired-ass “everything is offensive to someone” bullshit in MY FUCKIN’ INBOX, SON! Honestly, it should not be that hard to not be racist, get a fucking grip.

141 Obdicut  Fri, Dec 23, 2011 2:06:47pm

re: #138 SanFranciscoZionist

"Redheaded Swedish Arabs" would be a good name for a band. It would be better if the band actually included a couple of redheaded Swedish Arabs, of course.

I think they should be solely composed of black-haired Danish Jews.

142 chunkymonkey  Fri, Dec 23, 2011 2:11:53pm

re: #137 SanFranciscoZionist

Argue on topic or let it gooo.

Hey, I'm just responding to criticism at this point. I'd love to drop it.

143 Obdicut  Fri, Dec 23, 2011 2:13:37pm

re: #142 chunkymonkey

Hey, I'm just responding to criticism at this point. I'd love to drop it.

Then just stop posting, leaving your obviously self-contradictory pile of non-arguments where they lie.

144 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Dec 23, 2011 2:15:30pm

re: #141 Obdicut

I think they should be solely composed of black-haired Danish Jews.

Even better, actually.

145 chunkymonkey  Fri, Dec 23, 2011 2:16:49pm

re: #139 Obdicut

How are those statements different? What does it mean to be obviously of 'Swedish' origin in appearance and ancestry?

This person is Swedish:

Image: 1998pcimg2846.jpg

What is 'Swedish' to you? How is it defined, that it has an 'appearance' that can be obvious?

Ask any asswipe who uses the term "visible minority." You know, I think just about every sane person in the USA would understand my intention. Good grief. Sure, that person is Swedish, just like I'm American. But her ancestors likely didn't come from the geographical location we refer to as Sweden, just like mine didn't come from America.

146 Obdicut  Fri, Dec 23, 2011 2:18:56pm

re: #145 chunkymonkey

But her ancestors likely didn't come from the geographical location we refer to as Sweden, just like mine didn't come from America.

So? How can you tell someone is obviously of Swedish ancestry, then? Is this person obviously of Swedish ancestry? If not, why not?

Image: ThorHeyerdahl_Portrait.jpg

147 chunkymonkey  Fri, Dec 23, 2011 2:31:12pm

re: #146 Obdicut

So? How can you tell someone is obviously of Swedish ancestry, then? Is this person obviously of Swedish ancestry? If not, why not?

You can't from a picture. If there were meatballs in the photo then maybe.
re: #143 Obdicut

Then just stop posting, leaving your obviously self-contradictory pile of non-arguments where they lie.

You first.

148 Obdicut  Fri, Dec 23, 2011 2:34:12pm

re: #147 chunkymonkey

You can't from a picture. If there were meatballs in the photo then maybe.

Rather obvious dodge, don't you think? So, then, what does "Swedish" mean? Are you using it to mean "Someone whose ancestors lived in what we call Sweden now"?

149 Surabaya Stew  Fri, Dec 23, 2011 2:41:49pm

re: #138 SanFranciscoZionist

"Redheaded Swedish Arabs" would be a good name for a band. It would be better if the band actually included a couple of redheaded Swedish Arabs, of course.

It just needs:

1 Swede
1 Arab
1 Redhead (of any nationality)

Since we're all one race anyway, we can just say that everyone is the same and that we have no differences, right?

:-D

150 chunkymonkey  Fri, Dec 23, 2011 2:56:40pm

re: #148 Obdicut

Rather obvious dodge, don't you think? So, then, what does "Swedish" mean? Are you using it to mean "Someone whose ancestors lived in what we call Sweden now"?

What does "Swedish" mean indeed. What does African American mean? What do any of these terms mean?

151 Obdicut  Fri, Dec 23, 2011 2:58:30pm

re: #150 chunkymonkey

What does "Swedish" mean indeed. What does African American mean? What do any of these terms mean?

So, when you said someone could be 100% genetically Swedish, you didn't mean 100%, you didn't mean genetically, and you didn't mean Swedish, since you can't define Swedish.

Great.

So what did you mean when you said someone could be 100% genetically Swedish? That was you who said that, not some 3rd party confusing you with their terms.

152 wrenchwench  Fri, Dec 23, 2011 3:00:59pm

re: #150 chunkymonkey

What does "Swedish" mean indeed. What does African American mean? What do any of these terms mean?

Indeed, what does chunkymonkey mean? Oh yeah, "wingnut dead thread hero", I forgot. And probably "racist" too.

153 chunkymonkey  Fri, Dec 23, 2011 3:08:34pm

re: #152 wrenchwench

Indeed, what does chunkymonkey mean? Oh yeah, "wingnut dead thread hero", I forgot. And probably "racist" too.

Aren't you clever.

re: #151 Obdicut

So, when you said someone could be 100% genetically Swedish, you didn't mean 100%, you didn't mean genetically, and you didn't mean Swedish, since you can't define Swedish.

Great.

So what did you mean when you said someone could be 100% genetically Swedish? That was you who said that, not some 3rd party confusing you with their terms.

I was writing colloquially, not scientifically. I think the point of what I wrote was obvious. Good for you for being a dick about it.

154 Obdicut  Fri, Dec 23, 2011 3:13:37pm

re: #153 chunkymonkey

Aren't you clever.

re: #151 Obdicut

I was writing colloquially, not scientifically. I think the point of what I wrote was obvious. Good for you for being a dick about it.

If your point was so obvious, how come you can't explain it given repeated tries?

Again, you said someone could be 100% genetically Swedish. You haven't been able to explain what genetically Swedish means, except to say that it's 'ancestry'-- which makes very little sense-- or 'appearance'-- which is more ridiculous, since appearance is genetic, is obviously dumb otherwise.

Again: If your point is so obvious, just restate what you meant. You've been unable to, so far, in any way that didn't just make your argument more tangled.

155 labman57  Fri, Dec 23, 2011 3:26:58pm

Coming race war?
How Manson-esq­ue. And now Paul is running around all "helter skelter" in an effort to disavow his associatio­n with these newsletter­s.

156 chunkymonkey  Fri, Dec 23, 2011 4:16:06pm

re: #154 Obdicut

If your point was so obvious, how come you can't explain it given repeated tries?

Again, you said someone could be 100% genetically Swedish. You haven't been able to explain what genetically Swedish means, except to say that it's 'ancestry'-- which makes very little sense-- or 'appearance'-- which is more ridiculous, since appearance is genetic, is obviously dumb otherwise.

Again: If your point is so obvious, just restate what you meant. You've been unable to, so far, in any way that didn't just make your argument more tangled.

The stuff about 100% genetically Swedish has no scientific meaning. I don't even remember the context at this point because you're focusing on points that don't matter anyway.

Look, this is an internet forum. The word racism is used way too often because nobody can define it or race anyway. I did not formulate my arguments and claims above very well and why would I? Is this a scientific journal? No, it's a bunch of idiots without jobs and too much time on their hands who like to name-call people who have views they don't like. if arguing to mostly like-minded brethren and not making any difference in the world, by all means continue. I'll be glad to stir the pot.

157 wrenchwench  Fri, Dec 23, 2011 4:18:41pm

re: #156 chunkymonkey

The stuff about 100% genetically Swedish has no scientific meaning. I don't even remember the context at this point because you're focusing on points that don't matter anyway.

Look, this is an internet forum. The word racism is used way too often because nobody can define it or race anyway. I did not formulate my arguments and claims above very well and why would I? Is this a scientific journal? No, it's a bunch of idiots without jobs and too much time on their hands who like to name-call people who have views they don't like. if arguing to mostly like-minded brethren and not making any difference in the world, by all means continue. I'll be glad to stir the pot.

Do you think Ron Paul is a bigot?

158 Obdicut  Fri, Dec 23, 2011 4:28:39pm

re: #156 chunkymonkey

Look, this is an internet forum. The word racism is used way too often because nobody can define it or race anyway.

I not only can define racism, I already did. Do you have a problem with my definition of racism?

159 Obdicut  Fri, Dec 23, 2011 4:29:29pm

re: #156 chunkymonkey

Is this a scientific journal? No, it's a bunch of idiots without jobs and too much time on their hands who like to name-call people who have views they don't like. if arguing to mostly like-minded brethren and not making any difference in the world, by all means continue. I'll be glad to stir the pot.

Oh, sorry. You're a boring troll. Never mind.

160 jaunte  Fri, Dec 23, 2011 5:23:16pm

"a bunch of idiots who like to name-call people"

Rotating title nomination.

161 chunkymonkey  Sat, Dec 24, 2011 3:52:08pm

re: #158 Obdicut

I not only can define racism, I already did. Do you have a problem with my definition of racism?

Which seems to be:

No, it makes it very easy to define a racist; a racist is someone who thinks race exists. A worse racist is one who thinks that race exists and is important to talk about a lot.

That is an entirely useless definition. It's obviously not the one Charles uses. For example, if Newt was to call me a Jungle Bunny, Charles would claim that Newt was racist, which by most people's thinking would likely be true. By your definition, unless Newt "thinks race exists," there's absolutely nothing racist about his comment.

You know, Wikipedia has a lot to say on the matter of race and racism, and this doesn't seem to jive with your lame definition.

So yeah, I have several problems with your definition.

162 chunkymonkey  Sat, Dec 24, 2011 3:55:37pm

re: #157 wrenchwench

Do you think Ron Paul is a bigot?

Well, let's have a definition of bigot first:

A bigot is a person obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices, especially one exhibiting intolerance, and animosity toward those of differing beliefs. The predominant usage in modern English refers to persons hostile to those of differing sex, race, ethnicity, religious beliefs or spirituality, nationality, language, inter-regional prejudice, gender and/or sexual orientation, age, homelessness, various medical disorders particularly behavioral disorders and addictive disorders. Forms of bigotry may have a related ideology or world views.

Do I think Ron Paul is a bigot? He might be, he might not be, I do not know. I know Charles thinks he is, and he's provided some weak evidence to support his claim. I'm not convinced, but I am concerned and open to the possibility. I hope he is not, but then I hope for better for a lot of people.

163 Obdicut  Sun, Dec 25, 2011 11:51:32am

re: #161 chunkymonkey

That is an entirely useless definition.

Then demonstrate how.

It's obviously not the one Charles uses. For example, if Newt was to call me a Jungle Bunny, Charles would claim that Newt was racist, which by most people's thinking would likely be true. By your definition, unless Newt "thinks race exists," there's absolutely nothing racist about his comment.

No, the comment is still racist. He's not, if he doesn't believe in race, then he's just a cynical opportunist, using the language of a racist in order to court racists. Which, I think, does describe a few people on the GOP; not racist themselves, but perfectly willing to engage in racist dog-whistling to get votes.

Thank you for allowing me to make that point.

So yeah, I have several problems with your definition.

You gave one, which was facile. Someone can say something racist without being a sincere racist. Racism, as a personal attribute, is believing that race exists. Racism, as a behavior in action, is insulting, demeaning, ostracizing, or penalizing people for being of a certain race. You may not sincerely believe they deserve it, but the behavior is still racism.

164 chunkymonkey  Sun, Dec 25, 2011 3:42:08pm

re: #163 Obdicut

No, the comment is still racist. He's not, if he doesn't believe in race, then he's just a cynical opportunist, using the language of a racist in order to court racists. Which, I think, does describe a few people on the GOP; not racist themselves, but perfectly willing to engage in racist dog-whistling to get votes.

Oh brother.

Thank you for allowing me to make that point.

Gladly.

You gave one, which was facile. Someone can say something racist without being a sincere racist. Racism, as a personal attribute, is believing that race exists.

That definition is ludicrous. I'll take the Wikipedia and every other dictionary definitions of racist and racism:

RACISM: the belief that inherent different traits in human racial groups justify discrimination.

RACIST: a person with a prejudiced belief that one race is superior to others.

You may think you are a genius on this issue, but it is clear that you are not.

165 chunkymonkey  Sun, Dec 25, 2011 3:42:57pm

And I'll get down-dinged for posting wikipedia/dictionary definitions of common terms. That's how awesome it is to post at LGF!

166 Obdicut  Sun, Dec 25, 2011 4:13:13pm

re: #164 chunkymonkey

That definition is ludicrous.

What about it is ludicrous? Try arguing things instead of asserting them to be true.

I'm really at a loss as to how those dictionary definitions are supposed to smack me down.

But you're on a suicide dive anyway.

167 Varek Raith  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 12:12:33am

Good grief.

168 chunkymonkey  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 8:46:02am

re: #166 Obdicut

What about it is ludicrous? Try arguing things instead of asserting them to be true.

I'm really at a loss as to how those dictionary definitions are supposed to smack me down.

You: RACIST - a person who thinks race exists.

Dictionary: RACIST - a person with a prejudiced belief that one race is superior to others.

So because the dictionary definition is a subset of your definition you think they are compatible? From the dictionary definition, a person who thinks race exists but doesn't think any races are superior to others, whatever that means, wouldn't be a racist, while under your definition a racist they would be. Your definition is used only by yourself, and is therefore entirely useless. QED.

Race may or may not exist, but who died made you the great arbiter on the matter? The question is still open among modern scientists of which apparently you are not.

Bring on the down dings! The red numbers help me find my posts, and other posts worth reading.

169 wrenchwench  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 12:30:58pm

re: #162 chunkymonkey

Well, let's have a definition of bigot first:

Do I think Ron Paul is a bigot? He might be, he might not be, I do not know. I know Charles thinks he is, and he's provided some weak evidence to support his claim. I'm not convinced, but I am concerned and open to the possibility. I hope he is not, but then I hope for better for a lot of people.

You are so open to the possibility that your judgment is falling out.

re: #168 chunkymonkey

Bring on the down dings! The red numbers help me find my posts, and other posts worth reading.

The search features on this site work very well. But I guess the downdings are working for you. Here, let me help.

170 chunkymonkey  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 10:55:22pm

re: #169 wrenchwench

You are so open to the possibility that your judgment is falling out.

re: #168 chunkymonkey

The search features on this site work very well. But I guess the downdings are working for you. Here, let me help.

Ding it loud, ding it proud!


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