In a Past Life, Gingrich Passionately Defended the Individual Mandate

The mutations of Newt
Politics • Views: 28,382

In the adventures of the many personae of Newt Gingrich, the Republican Party’s big idea guy, today a 2006 memo has turned up in which the Gingrich of 5 years ago “agreed entirely” with Gov. Romney’s health care bill.

To conservatives, the biggest strike against Mitt Romney is the health care plan he put in place in Massachusetts, but Newt Gingrich lavished praise on Romney’s plan after it was passed in 2006.

“We agree entirely with Governor Romney and Massachusetts legislators that our goal should be 100 percent insurance coverage for all Americans,” Gingrich wrote in 2006.

And, Gingrich wrote, the key to achieving that goal was doing what Romney did in Massachusetts: Requiring everybody who could afford it to buy health insurance. In fact, Gingrich makes an impassioned case for the so-called individual mandate — which is also at the center of President Obama’s health plan — on conservative grounds.

“We also believe strongly that personal responsibility is vital to creating a 21st Century Intelligent Health System,” Gingrich wrote in the memo which was found on an old Gingrich website by the Wall Street Journal’s Brody Mullins and Janet Adamy.

“Individuals who can afford to purchase health insurance and simply choose not to place an unnecessary burden on a system that is on the verge of collapse; these free-riders undermine the entire health system by placing the onus of responsibility on taxpayers.”

Buzzfeed’s Andrew Kaczynski has also discovered a 2008 video in which Newt passionately defends the individual mandate:

Youtube Video

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112 comments
1 Bulworth  Tue, Dec 27, 2011 10:57:40am

This is so pre-Teabag.

2 Bulworth  Tue, Dec 27, 2011 11:00:32am
our goal should be 100 percent insurance coverage for all Americans,” Gingrich wrote in 2006.

Proof #4,306 of how wacked out around the bend the Republican Party has turned in the past five years. Something like this couldn't be thought, much less said, in that party now.

3 Kronocide  Tue, Dec 27, 2011 11:01:58am

Will Obama even need to debate the 'winner' of the GOP candidate scrum?

Imagine the mass of LOL's and 'Dude! Check this out!' emails passing through DNC mail servers the last few months.

4 aagcobb  Tue, Dec 27, 2011 11:04:56am

But that was before Obama made the individual mandate into a socialist plot to steal our freedom and destroy America./

5 makeitstop  Tue, Dec 27, 2011 11:09:32am

The really pathetic thing is if a Republican once had a reasonably sane position on an issue and replaces it with an insane position on the same issue, it will be applauded by the wingnut base.

6 NJDhockeyfan  Tue, Dec 27, 2011 11:11:37am

Breaking: Ben Nelson retiring from Senate

Democratic Sen. Ben Nelson of Nebraska will announce today that he is retiring after two terms, a serious blow to Democratic efforts to hold onto their majority in the chamber next November.

Nelson is scheduled to hold a press conference back home in Nebraska as early as today to make his decision official, said several Democratic insiders close to the leadership.

7 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Dec 27, 2011 11:13:18am

re: #3 BigPapa

Will Obama even need to debate the 'winner' of the GOP candidate scrum?

Imagine the mass of LOL's and 'Dude! Check this out!' emails passing through DNC mail servers the last few months.

I still think they're gonna nominate Romney.

I hope he runs a good, aboveboard campaign, I hope he makes Obama work hard to define his successes and his plans for the future, and I hope he loses.

Please note the shift from 'think' to 'hope'.

8 wilburs  Tue, Dec 27, 2011 11:20:36am

The individual mandate has always been a conservative idea, designed to protect insurers. It is the conservative response to the concept of insurers being required to accept all comers regardless of "pre-existing" conditions, and of the requirement that there be no practice of rescission.

pretending otherwise does not make it so.

9 Big Steve  Tue, Dec 27, 2011 11:22:19am

One has to admire Romney's Oppo guys......they have one by one sniped everyone one of the competition down a peg or two.

10 engineer cat  Tue, Dec 27, 2011 11:22:25am

Gingrich Passionately Defended the

i retract my prediction that he will win some southern states. maybe south carolina

paul wins iowa, then it's smiley in a walk, and teabaggers will learn to sing the praises of oatmeal

11 Big Steve  Tue, Dec 27, 2011 11:26:11am

re: #7 SanFranciscoZionist

I still think they're gonna nominate Romney.

I hope he runs a good, aboveboard campaign, I hope he makes Obama work hard to define his successes and his plans for the future, and I hope he loses.

Please note the shift from 'think' to 'hope'.

Do you hope Obama runs "a good, aboveboard campaign" as well?

12 wrenchwench  Tue, Dec 27, 2011 11:26:45am

re: #9 Big Steve

One has to admire Romney's Oppo guys...they have one by one sniped everyone one of the competition down a peg or two.

You think "Romney's Oppo guys" are responsible for this video?

13 Kronocide  Tue, Dec 27, 2011 11:27:36am
The mutations of Newt

Would that be a Newtation?

14 Big Steve  Tue, Dec 27, 2011 11:27:58am

re: #12 wrenchwench

You think "Romney's Oppo guys" are responsible for this video?

Yes and for getting the optimum timing for its "rediscovery".

15 wrenchwench  Tue, Dec 27, 2011 11:30:32am

re: #14 Big Steve

Yes and for getting the optimum timing for its "rediscovery".

So you think Andrew Kaczynski works for Romney?

16 Sol Berdinowitz  Tue, Dec 27, 2011 11:32:47am

Here's the prob: if the GOP establishment sees to it that Romney gets the nomination over the wishes of an actual majority of their (wingnut) base, they have to face the near-inevitability of a mutiny, at best a sit-down strike at the polls, at worst a third-party "true conservative" candidate.

17 allegro  Tue, Dec 27, 2011 11:34:43am

re: #11 Big Steve

Do you hope Obama runs "a good, aboveboard campaign" as well?

He certainly ran a fine campaign in 2008 - why wouldn't he do so again? The Republicans are certainly making it easy enough.

18 aagcobb  Tue, Dec 27, 2011 11:36:05am

re: #16 ralphieboy

Here's the prob: if the GOP establishment sees to it that Romney gets the nomination over the wishes of an actual majority of their (wingnut) base, they have to face the near-inevitability of a mutiny, at best a sit-down strike at the polls, at worst a third-party "true conservative" candidate.

They will be counting on the Base to come out to vote against Obama, even if they aren't enthusiastic about Romney.

19 Charles Johnson  Tue, Dec 27, 2011 11:36:57am

re: #8 wilburs

The individual mandate has always been a conservative idea, designed to protect insurers. It is the conservative response to the concept of insurers being required to accept all comers regardless of "pre-existing" conditions, and of the requirement that there be no practice of rescission.

pretending otherwise does not make it so.

That's true -- and it also appeals (or used to appeal) to conservatives because it's an authoritarian solution.

20 wrenchwench  Tue, Dec 27, 2011 11:39:38am

re: #14 Big Steve

Yes and for getting the optimum timing for its "rediscovery".

Do you think Brody Mullins And Janet Adamy of the Wall Street Journal work for Romney?

21 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Dec 27, 2011 11:41:20am

re: #11 Big Steve

Do you hope Obama runs "a good, aboveboard campaign" as well?

Of course. I hate ugly campaigns.

22 Stanghazi  Tue, Dec 27, 2011 11:43:13am

Not going to sit well with the 'Let 'Em Die' folks

23 Killgore Trout  Tue, Dec 27, 2011 11:45:26am

Koskidz are dreaming of civil war....
Elder on Wall Street: "There will be violence, mark my words" (top of the recommended list)

It may not be Occupy Wall Street itself that will come with pitchforks. But if that's all Wall Street fears, well, they have good reason to be afraid. Anger has a way of spiraling, to the point past which the angry can differentiate the agent from the collective.
....
he 1% class is gambling on the hope that cheap cable, alcohol, prescription drugs, sugar and a host of other opiates of the masses are going to keep us quiet. But their observations were always made as outsiders and as such, they can't produce the requisite empathy to imagine how we feel and think.

The 1% don't understand desperation.

They think America will tolerate 8 more years of this.

They're wrong, so wrong.

Remember how outraged we were when Breitbart had civil war fantasies?

24 b_sharp  Tue, Dec 27, 2011 11:45:59am

re: #10 engineer dog

Gingrich Passionately Defended the

i retract my prediction that he will win some southern states. maybe south carolina

paul wins iowa, then it's smiley in a walk, and teabaggers will learn to sing the praises of oatmeal

English translation please. Maybe with a Canuck accent so I can understand it.

25 Olsonist  Tue, Dec 27, 2011 11:48:40am

re: #20 wrenchwench

Do you think Brody Mullins And Janet Adamy of the Wall Street Journal work for Romney?

You think "Romney's Oppo guys" are responsible for this video?

I absolutely think that Romney's Oppo guys are responsible for Newt and Paul's downfall. In particular, I don't credit the press for any of it. This is not to be read as praise for Romney in the least but rather as criticism of the press. This was handed to them on a silver platter.

In particular, I think Mullins and Adamy are on speed dial for the various oppo teams. Sure, they verified what was sent to them, but they didn't discover it. If they did discover it, they'd be working for oppo teams which undoubtedly pay better.

26 bluecheese  Tue, Dec 27, 2011 11:48:56am

re: #6 NJDhockeyfan

Breaking: Ben Nelson retiring from Senate

fuck Ben Nelson

27 b_sharp  Tue, Dec 27, 2011 11:51:07am

re: #23 Killgore Trout

Koskidz are dreaming of civil war...
Elder on Wall Street: "There will be violence, mark my words" (top of the recommended list)

It may not be Occupy Wall Street itself that will come with pitchforks. But if that's all Wall Street fears, well, they have good reason to be afraid. Anger has a way of spiraling, to the point past which the angry can differentiate the agent from the collective.
...
he 1% class is gambling on the hope that cheap cable, alcohol, prescription drugs, sugar and a host of other opiates of the masses are going to keep us quiet. But their observations were always made as outsiders and as such, they can't produce the requisite empathy to imagine how we feel and think.

The 1% don't understand desperation.

They think America will tolerate 8 more years of this.

They're wrong, so wrong.

Remember how outraged we were when Breitbart had civil war fantasies?

Do you view this as a comment about a potential outcome with a non-zero probability or a threat?

28 Gus  Tue, Dec 27, 2011 11:51:17am

re: #26 bluecheese

fuck Ben Nelson

@Political_Bill Bill Talley
For those o you glad to see Blue Dog Ben Nelson go, that's one less DEM vote that keeps them in Senate majority & Harry Reid in control. #p2

29 wrenchwench  Tue, Dec 27, 2011 11:51:34am

re: #25 Olsonist

I absolutely think that Romney's Oppo guys are responsible for Newt and Paul's downfall. In particular, I don't credit the press for any of it. This is not to be read as praise for Romney in the least but rather as criticism of the press. This was handed to them on a silver platter.

In particular, I think Mullins and Adamy are on speed dial for the various oppo teams. Sure, they verified what was sent to them, but they didn't discover it. If they did discover it, they'd be working for oppo teams which undoubtedly pay better.

How about Kaczynski?

30 engineer cat  Tue, Dec 27, 2011 11:51:55am

re: #11 Big Steve

Do you hope Obama runs "a good, aboveboard campaign" as well?

obama will run an aboveboard campaign, republicans will run an ugly lying campaign as always, and smiley will smile and smile and smile

31 Killgore Trout  Tue, Dec 27, 2011 11:52:28am

re: #6 NJDhockeyfan

Breaking: Ben Nelson retiring from Senate

Democratic Sen. Ben Nelson of Nebraska will announce today that he is retiring after two terms, a serious blow to Democratic efforts to hold on to the majority in the chamber next November.

We are so fucked as a country. When the Dems lose the Senate *which they probably will even without this resignation) we're in for 4 years of gridlock, special prosecutors and impeachment hearings.

32 sagehen  Tue, Dec 27, 2011 11:53:06am

Is it creepy that I'm falling a little in love with Andrew Kaczynksi?

Nate Silver used to be my imaginary boyfriend, but that's just so 2008 I'm surprised it lasted as long as it did.

33 engineer cat  Tue, Dec 27, 2011 11:54:55am

re: #24 b_sharp

English translation please. Maybe with a Canuck accent so I can understand it.

yah, it's not aboot bein' oot and aboot in a boot yah know, eh?

baggers love to think they live on manly american steaks covered with louisiana hot hot sauce, but they'll vote for Smiley McOatmeal like they're told and say they like it

34 Killgore Trout  Tue, Dec 27, 2011 11:55:37am

re: #27 b_sharp

Do you view this as a comment about a potential outcome with a non-zero probability or a threat?

It's just a fantasy. More or less harmless but this is the kind of thing that can send lone wolves other the edge. Glenn Beck and the Tea Party dabbled in this kind of hysterical radicalism for years. Most even the most dedicated fans don't really believe this stuff. It's just kind of fun and empowering for them to fantasize. However, It just takes one unbalanced person to take this stuff seriously to cause a lot of damage.

35 lawhawk  Tue, Dec 27, 2011 11:56:16am

re: #25 Olsonist

The past couple of political cycles have shown that the media hasn't done much investigative journalism of its own and has become increasingly reliant on oppo-research/leaks to "break" news of bad stuff about candidates.

The media outlets have a cost problem - cost-cutting at major news outlets means they just don't have the resources they once did to do research that might not pan out or devote to digging around for stories. Yet, anyone who has the time to sift through thousands of hours of CSPAN video can come up with countless gold nuggets that can transform candidates' perceptions (see the whole way that Kacyznski has done this as a student no less). There's no bar to producing news, and that's opened doors for those who have interests in breaking news, but it's also made traditional news outlets late to the game since they don't have the numbers to do that kind of legwork.

But just as easily anyone can throw stuff out there for consumption and it may not be what it seems (see Breitbart, Andrew; O'Keefe, James).

36 wrenchwench  Tue, Dec 27, 2011 11:56:36am

Kaczynski got credit in the version of ABC's story that Thanos quoted this morning, but now they credit the duo from the WSJ. I don't know what's up with that. Also, people are pasting a typoed version of Kaczynski's name.

37 sagehen  Tue, Dec 27, 2011 11:56:46am

re: #8 wilburs

pretending otherwise does not make it so.

YES IT DOES!!

(repurposed quote from a suskind article on another topic, from that year's conservative star:

The aide said that guys like me were "in what we call the reality-based community," which he defined as people who "believe that solutions emerge from your judicious study of discernible reality." ... "That's not the way the world really works anymore," he continued. "We're an empire now, and when we act, we create our own reality. And while you're studying that reality—judiciously, as you will—we'll act again, creating other new realities, which you can study too, and that's how things will sort out. We're history's actors…and you, all of you, will be left to just study what we do."

38 b_sharp  Tue, Dec 27, 2011 11:56:57am

re: #33 engineer dog

yah, it's not aboot bein' oot and aboot in a boot yah know, eh?

baggers love to think they live on manly american steaks covered with louisiana hot hot sauce, but they'll vote for Smiley McOatmeal like they're told and say they like it

Who is Smiley McOatmeal?

Nice accent btw.

39 Eclectic Infidel  Tue, Dec 27, 2011 11:56:59am

re: #23 Killgore Trout

Were lizards really outraged over Breitbart's insurrection fantasies, or simply amused at his arrogance?

40 Charles Johnson  Tue, Dec 27, 2011 11:57:47am

re: #36 wrenchwench

...people are pasting a typoed version of Kaczynski's name.

Six consonants in a row. It's a typo magnet.

41 NJDhockeyfan  Tue, Dec 27, 2011 11:58:21am

re: #31 Killgore Trout

We are so fucked as a country. When the Dems lose the Senate *which they probably will even without this resignation) we're in for 4 years of gridlock, special prosecutors and impeachment hearings.

Business as usual in Washington.

42 wrenchwench  Tue, Dec 27, 2011 11:58:34am

re: #40 Charles

Six consonants in a row. It's a typo magnet.

I'm just Polish enough to be immune.

43 Gus  Tue, Dec 27, 2011 12:00:03pm

And you might want to read:

Ben Nelson’s retirement makes life hard for Senate Democrats
By Jonathan Bernstein

Big news in the Senate today, with Ben Nelson, a Democrat from Nebraska, announcing his retirement.

Nelson has consistently been one of the most conservative Democrats in the Senate, and during the very brief period in 2009 in which the caucus held 60 seats, his was usually the toughest vote to secure.

Still, no one should think that he is interchangeable with the mainstream Republican who will likely replace him; Nelson, after all, did eventually vote for the Affordable Care Act, the stimulus bill and numerous other Democratic priorities.

Continues.

44 Olsonist  Tue, Dec 27, 2011 12:00:16pm

re: #29 wrenchwench

How about Kaczynski?

Sagehen beat me to it. Andrew Kaczynksi has some talent and I'd be surprised if he was working for the man real soon. Nate Silver had the same talent and got a full time gig.

My turn. Why do you think the oppo teams aren't behind this? Sorry to put words in your mouth but that seems to be what you're saying.

Oppo teams are like lobbyists. Candidates and interest groups can effectively move public opinion with money by buying (renting) oppo teams. This in NO WAY absolves the Pauls of the world. In no way. But the press should have done this first. Ron Paul should NEVER have been a mainstream candidate. He should have been either shamed or laughed off the stage by an active press. But instead we shockingly discover his cryptoracist past just in time.

No. Oppo teams did the press's work for them.

45 Charles Johnson  Tue, Dec 27, 2011 12:01:10pm

re: #23 Killgore Trout

Koskidz are dreaming of civil war...
Elder on Wall Street: "There will be violence, mark my words" (top of the recommended list)

Remember how outraged we were when Breitbart had civil war fantasies?

Actually, the article is from the Daily Beast: The Big Lie.

46 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Dec 27, 2011 12:03:25pm

re: #39 eclectic infidel

Were lizards really outraged over Breitbart's insurrection fantasies, or simply amused at his arrogance?

I certainly wasn't afraid he could pull it off, but there's most amusement and deep contempt for anyone who thinks that this is fun to run their mouth about.

I have the same reaction to the same nonsense coming from leftische types.

47 engineer cat  Tue, Dec 27, 2011 12:04:10pm

re: #38 b_sharp

Who is Smiley McOatmeal?

Paul
Romney
Gingrich
Perry
Bachmann
Huntsman
Santorum

which one of the above do you think it most resembles?

48 NJDhockeyfan  Tue, Dec 27, 2011 12:04:36pm

Ron Paul: ‘I Wouldn’t Risk American Lives’ to End the Holocaust

Jeffrey Scott Shapiro writes that in 2009, in answer to a question, Ron Paul responded that he would not have sent troops in to prevent the murder of 6 million Jews in the Nazi Holocuast:

And so I asked Congressman Paul: if he were President of the United States during World War II, and as president he knew what we now know about the Holocaust, but the Third Reich presented no threat to the U.S., would he have sent American troops to Nazi Germany purely as a moral imperative to save the Jews?

And the Congressman answered:

“No, I wouldn’t. I wouldn’t risk American lives to do that. If someone wants to do that on their own because they want to do that, well, that’s fine, but I wouldn’t do that.”

Paul then looked at me, and I politely thanked him for his time. He smiled at me again and nodded his head, and many of his young followers were also smiling, and nodding their heads in agreement. Clearly, I was the only one in the room who was disturbed by his response.

...

(FYI...this story originated at Big Government)

49 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Dec 27, 2011 12:05:49pm

re: #42 wrenchwench

I'm just Polish enough to be immune.

for great justice spell this guy's name

50 b_sharp  Tue, Dec 27, 2011 12:06:17pm

re: #47 engineer dog

Paul
Romney
Gingrich
Perry
Bachmann
Huntsman
Santorum

which one of the above do you think it most resembles?

Gingrich?
Remember, I'm a foreigner just learning about the circus.

51 wrenchwench  Tue, Dec 27, 2011 12:06:38pm

re: #44 Olsonist

Sagehen beat me to it. Andrew Kaczynksi has some talent and I'd be surprised if he was working for the man real soon. Nate Silver had the same talent and got a full time gig.

My turn. Why do you think the oppo teams aren't behind this? Sorry to put words in your mouth but that seems to be what you're saying.

Oppo teams are like lobbyists. Candidates and interest groups can effectively move public opinion with money by buying (renting) oppo teams. This in NO WAY absolves the Pauls of the world. In no way. But the press should have done this first. Ron Paul should NEVER have been a mainstream candidate. He should have been either shamed or laughed off the stage by an active press. But instead we shockingly discover his cryptoracist past just in time.

No. Oppo teams did the press's work for them.

Kaczynski apparently just took a gig with Buzzfeed. He has three posts there starting yesterday, but has been cruising the C-SPAN archives for months.

My point, which I strayed from, and never specified in the first place for that matter, is that Gingrich is responsible here. That doesn't preclude "oppo teams" from having some responsibility for getting it to the media outlets. But I thought Big Steve was trying to let Gingrich off the hook.

52 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Dec 27, 2011 12:06:54pm

re: #49 WindUpBird

even he phonetically spells it on his site for us hapless fools :D

53 wrenchwench  Tue, Dec 27, 2011 12:08:02pm

re: #52 WindUpBird

even he phonetically spells it on his site for us hapless fools :D

I was just going to note that.

54 zora  Tue, Dec 27, 2011 12:08:23pm

re: #48 NJDhockeyfan

i've seen this posted elsewhere and was not suprised one bit. he currently wants no foriegn aid for israel and nukes for iran if they want them. i believe his views on israel are pretty close to ahmadinejad's.

55 Killgore Trout  Tue, Dec 27, 2011 12:08:52pm

re: #45 Charles

Actually, the article is from the Daily Beast: The Big Lie.

Do you know anything about him? I did a quick google but it's such a common name that I didn't find anything.

56 Olsonist  Tue, Dec 27, 2011 12:09:08pm

re: #50 b_sharp

Gingrich?
Remember, I'm a foreigner just learning about the circus.

I'm going to have to give B partial credit on that one:

Image: quaker-oats-online-store.jpg

Image: Meet%20Newt%205.preview.jpg

57 engineer cat  Tue, Dec 27, 2011 12:09:49pm

re: #49 WindUpBird

for great justice spell this guy's name

sienkiewicz

the dog family was actually dogowitz at one time. grampa jack changed it in college, and in his yearbook it says "dogowitz lost his wits"


(btw, it turns out that the spelling "-witz" is more likely to be a jewish family, and "-wicz" is more likely to be catholic)

58 NJDhockeyfan  Tue, Dec 27, 2011 12:10:15pm

re: #54 zora

i've seen this posted elsewhere and was not suprised one bit. he currently wants no foriegn aid for israel and nukes for iran if they want them. i believe his views on israel are pretty close to ahmadinejad's.

He doesn't want to annihilation Israel with nukes like dinnerjacket does but he wouldn't lift a finger to help Israel either.

59 Olsonist  Tue, Dec 27, 2011 12:10:28pm

re: #51 wrenchwench

Kaczynski apparently just took a gig with Buzzfeed. He has three posts there starting yesterday, but has been cruising the C-SPAN archives for months.

My point, which I strayed from, and never specified in the first place for that matter, is that Gingrich is responsible here. That doesn't preclude "oppo teams" from having some responsibility for getting it to the media outlets. But I thought Big Steve was trying to let Gingrich off the hook.

Absofuckinlutely. We are in violent agreement. Except that I still like Campy.

60 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Dec 27, 2011 12:10:43pm

re: #54 zora

i've seen this posted elsewhere and was not suprised one bit. he currently wants no foriegn aid for israel and nukes for iran if they want them. i believe his views on israel are pretty close to ahmadinejad's.

Less personal. RP doesn't want to nuke Israel himself, but he won't lose a moment's sleep if someone else does. Or, for that matter, if Pakistan and India go MAD on each other. Why should this have anything to do with the United States, Ron Paul wonders to himself.

62 Charles Johnson  Tue, Dec 27, 2011 12:11:52pm

re: #55 Killgore Trout

Do you know anything about him? I did a quick google but it's such a common name that I didn't find anything.

He had a bestselling novel: Love and Money.

63 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Dec 27, 2011 12:12:25pm

re: #53 wrenchwench

I was just going to note that.

I have to remember it's always i before e, then I can spell it. Sienkiewicz

whee mnemonic devices (also worlds raddest comic artist)

64 NJDhockeyfan  Tue, Dec 27, 2011 12:13:13pm

re: #61 Gus 802

Pardon me while I look for a brick wall to bang my head upon.

(CNN) -- Iran is prepared to expand military and security cooperation with neighboring Iraq, a top Iranian military official said -- a week after U.S. forces pulled out of Iraq.

"The Islamic Republic of Iran is ready to establish, boost and expand all types of military, defense and security cooperation with the friendly and brotherly nation of Iraq," Iran's armed forces chief of staff Hassan Firouzabadi said, according to a report Sunday by the semi-official Fars news agency.

Good thing we got out of there in time!
//

65 lawhawk  Tue, Dec 27, 2011 12:14:16pm

re: #48 NJDhockeyfan

Not that it matters much, but the premise of the question posed to Paul is wrong. For starters, the Germans declared war on the US 4 days after Pearl Harbor. Or that the Nazis did pose a threat to the US - through our allies and that the oceans were insufficient protection.

Add to that Paul sidestepping the morality and ethics of the systematic murder of millions of people, and he thinks that we can just let that go. Sure, someone else might want to put American lives on the line for saving millions of other people, but he wouldn't be the one to do it. He clearly doesn't get the moral imperative of acting on a just cause to prevent much greater bloodshed.

Keep that in mind - better yet - let our allies or potential allies keep that in mind. Paul would rather let you die than put American lives on the line for saving millions of lives.

So much for the Beacon on the Hill.

66 engineer cat  Tue, Dec 27, 2011 12:14:48pm

re: #50 b_sharp

Gingrich?
Remember, I'm a foreigner just learning about the circus.

gingrich is more like Snarly McTurdbiscuit

i'll put you out of your misery and tell you that it's romney, but not without contemplating kidding you about the notorious politeness of canadians

67 engineer cat  Tue, Dec 27, 2011 12:15:12pm
68 Killgore Trout  Tue, Dec 27, 2011 12:15:53pm
There will be prosecutions and show trials. There will be violence, mark my words. Houses burnt, property defaced. I just hope that this time the mob targets the right people in Wall Street and in Washington. (How does a right-thinking Christian go about asking Santa for Mitch McConnell’s head under the Christmas tree?)

That's not responsible rhetoric. It's an incitement to political violence, vigilantism and terrorism.

69 Olsonist  Tue, Dec 27, 2011 12:17:12pm

re: #61 Gus 802

Pardon me while I look for a brick wall to bang my head upon.

That the Shia were always going to hook up was set in concrete some time ago.

70 zora  Tue, Dec 27, 2011 12:17:17pm

re: #58 NJDhockeyfan

re: #60 SanFranciscoZionist

you guys give him more credit than i do.

71 NJDhockeyfan  Tue, Dec 27, 2011 12:17:33pm

Rep. Paul says defense bill assures ‘descent into totalitarianism’

GOP presidential candidate Ron Paul warned that the National Defense Authorization Act, which was passed by Congress this month, will accelerate the country’s “slip into tyranny” and virtually assures “our descent into totalitarianism.”

“The founders wanted to set a high bar for the government to overcome in order to deprive an individual of life or liberty,” Paul, the libertarian congressman from Texas, said Monday in a weekly phone message to supporters. “To lower that bar is to endanger everyone. When the bar is low enough to include political enemies, our descent into totalitarianism is virtually assured. The Patriot Act, as bad as its violations against the Fourth Amendment was, was just one step down the slippery slope. The recently passed National Defense Authorization Act continues that slip into tyranny, and in fact, accelerates it significantly.”

The NDAA is the nearly $670 billion defense spending bill that covers the military budget and funding for the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Totalitarianism! Tyranny! Slippery Slope!

72 Flounder  Tue, Dec 27, 2011 12:17:50pm

re: #8 wilburs

re: #19 Charles

Could you expand on that, or is this Mittens we are talking about.

73 Killgore Trout  Tue, Dec 27, 2011 12:18:34pm

re: #68 Killgore Trout

That's not responsible rhetoric. It's an incitement to political violence, vigilantism and terrorism.

Probably worthy of a visit from secret service too.

74 sagehen  Tue, Dec 27, 2011 12:21:50pm

re: #60 SanFranciscoZionist

Less personal. RP doesn't want to nuke Israel himself, but he won't lose a moment's sleep if someone else does. Or, for that matter, if Pakistan and India go MAD on each other. Why should this have anything to do with the United States, Ron Paul wonders to himself.

Our exceptionalism extends to our own self-contained atmosphere? Particles from that far away couldn't possibly enter our air space?

Good to know.

75 Killgore Trout  Tue, Dec 27, 2011 12:22:30pm
This essay was published in Newsweek International's Special Edition, 'Issues 2012,' on sale from December 2011-February 2012.

Interesting that Newsweek chose to publish a call for political violence in the US in the international version, not the domestic one.

76 Killgore Trout  Tue, Dec 27, 2011 12:25:17pm

Koskidz are eager to widen the scope....

I might add most probably the upper 20% don't either and it's foreseeable that the other 80% will take care of it and teach 'em a lesson.

and this....

Dies Irae, Dies Irae. When it comes it is going to
make the French Revolution look like a walk in the park.

No guillotines but rusty saws in the hands of drunken executioners.

I can hear the drum roll now.

77 Charles Johnson  Tue, Dec 27, 2011 12:26:44pm

re: #64 NJDhockeyfan

Good thing we got out of there in time!
//

The only way to prevent this would have been an indefinite occupation. It's been clear for years that Iraq was going to be an ally of Iran when the US left. The idea that we could just remove the dictator and a pro-Western democracy would magically create itself was a neocon pipe dream.

78 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Dec 27, 2011 12:28:56pm

re: #70 zora

re: #60 SanFranciscoZionist

you guys give him more credit than i do.

OK, for Israel he'd probably also have a little smirk and an explanation of how they brought it on themselves.

79 aagcobb  Tue, Dec 27, 2011 12:28:59pm

re: #61 Gus 802

Pardon me while I look for a brick wall to bang my head upon.

Yep, aren't you glad we spent trillions of dollars and got thousands of Americans killed and wounded so that Iraqis could destroy one of the oldest christian communities in the world and ally itself to Iran?

80 NJDhockeyfan  Tue, Dec 27, 2011 12:30:08pm

re: #77 Charles

The only way to prevent this would have been an indefinite occupation. It's been clear for years that Iraq was going to be an ally of Iran when the US left. The idea that we could just remove the dictator and a democracy would magically create itself was a neocon pipe dream.

We 'occupied' many countries in Europe after WWII and during the Cold War to protect them from the USSR. Why is that different?

81 Sol Berdinowitz  Tue, Dec 27, 2011 12:30:34pm

re: #18 aagcobb

They will be counting on the Base to come out to vote against Obama, even if they aren't enthusiastic about Romney.

That would be the rational thing to do, but the GOP base have proved themselves repeatedly to be immune to reason.

82 sagehen  Tue, Dec 27, 2011 12:32:43pm

re: #80 NJDhockeyfan

We 'occupied' many countries in Europe after WWII and during the Cold War to protect them from the USSR. Why is that different?

They wanted us to stay. Iraq didn't.

83 engineer cat  Tue, Dec 27, 2011 12:32:57pm

re: #76 Killgore Trout

Koskidz are eager to widen the scope...

and this...

i'm sure there must be at least one other person besides yourself who pays attention to any of this

84 lawhawk  Tue, Dec 27, 2011 12:35:09pm

re: #80 NJDhockeyfan

The withdrawal date was put in place by President Bush, subject to negotiations over stationing troops beyond the deadline. Those negotiations failed to resolve issues of liability - the US refused to allow the Iraqis to have the power to prosecute US soldiers for crimes in Iraq. So, rather than accept the Iraqi terms, the US is holding to the deadline.

Going forward, the Iraqis may come to regret that decision as insurgents and opportunists within the Shi'ite and Sunni communities try to take advantage of the power vacuum and tribal loyalties trump the professional cadre and training proffered by the US troops before leaving Iraq. Iraqi Shi'ites may think that Iran is a preferred partner, but they may realize too late that the Iranian vision doesn't include them either and it may cause still more violence in Iraq.

85 aagcobb  Tue, Dec 27, 2011 12:35:20pm

re: #80 NJDhockeyfan

We 'occupied' many countries in Europe after WWII and during the Cold War to protect them from the USSR. Why is that different?

Well, there was no deep affinity between Germany and the Soviet Union. Most Iraqis are shiites, like the Iranians. Also Germany had prewar experience with democratic government, which Iraq has no experience with.

86 William Barnett-Lewis  Tue, Dec 27, 2011 12:36:58pm

re: #80 NJDhockeyfan

We 'occupied' many countries in Europe after WWII and during the Cold War to protect them from the USSR. Why is that different?

"Status of Forces Agreements"

87 aagcobb  Tue, Dec 27, 2011 12:37:11pm

re: #81 ralphieboy

That would be the rational thing to do, but the GOP base have proved themselves repeatedly to be immune to reason.

But the establishment is not counting on their rationality, but rather their fear and hatred of Obama.

88 makeitstop  Tue, Dec 27, 2011 12:37:11pm

re: #49 WindUpBird

for great justice spell this guy's name

Or this guy's.

89 Gus  Tue, Dec 27, 2011 12:37:24pm

The Saudis will also have a say in this.

90 Sol Berdinowitz  Tue, Dec 27, 2011 12:38:45pm

re: #87 aagcobb

But the establishment is not counting on their rationality, but rather their fear and hatred of Obama.

As long as GOP keeps ther fear focused on Obama it will be fine. But at some point they will also become by an urge to maintain their ideological purity at all costs, even if it means a third-party candidate who will simply serve to be a canvas on which to project their ideal vision of America.

91 NJDhockeyfan  Tue, Dec 27, 2011 12:40:23pm

re: #84 lawhawk

The withdrawal date was put in place by President Bush, subject to negotiations over stationing troops beyond the deadline. Those negotiations failed to resolve issues of liability - the US refused to allow the Iraqis to have the power to prosecute US soldiers for crimes in Iraq. So, rather than accept the Iraqi terms, the US is holding to the deadline.

Going forward, the Iraqis may come to regret that decision as insurgents and opportunists within the Shi'ite and Sunni communities try to take advantage of the power vacuum and tribal loyalties trump the professional cadre and training proffered by the US troops before leaving Iraq. Iraqi Shi'ites may think that Iran is a preferred partner, but they may realize too late that the Iranian vision doesn't include them either and it may cause still more violence in Iraq.

No doubt. Al-Qaeda has certainly been busy this week blowing shit up and murdering Iraqis since we left a week ago.

92 Gus  Tue, Dec 27, 2011 12:41:21pm
93 sagehen  Tue, Dec 27, 2011 12:42:09pm

re: #88 makeitstop

Or this guy's.

Or this one

(hint -- there's a reason his fans just refer to him by his initials.)

94 aagcobb  Tue, Dec 27, 2011 12:42:12pm

re: #90 ralphieboy

As long as GOP keeps ther fear focused on Obama it will be fine. But at some point they will also become by an urge to maintain their ideological purity at all costs, even if it means a third-party candidate who will simply serve to be a canvas on which to project their ideal vision of America.

But who could serve that purpose? Palin will flirt to get attention, but she won't run. Trump also wants attention and ratings for "The Apprentice", but he won't run either. That leaves Ron Paul, who might run, and might draw just enough votes to, like Nader, give a swing state such as Florida to Obama. Run Ron, Run!

95 Killgore Trout  Tue, Dec 27, 2011 12:44:04pm

re: #83 engineer dog

i'm sure there must be at least one other person besides yourself who pays attention to any of this

I'm sure a lot of people are paying attention to this. At a time when Anon is publishing personal information and addresses of people they consider to be enemies of the 99% I think it's very irresponsible to publish articles advocating violence and property destruction against the perceived enemy.

96 engineer cat  Tue, Dec 27, 2011 12:44:11pm

re: #77 Charles

The only way to prevent this would have been an indefinite occupation. It's been clear for years that Iraq was going to be an ally of Iran when the US left. The idea that we could just remove the dictator and a pro-Western democracy would magically create itself was a neocon pipe dream.

the islamic world was shocked several centuries ago when the shi'ites, the perpetual self-proclaimed underdogs and outsiders of the islamic world, took command of the government of a major islamic power, persia

it took george w bush and his friends to create a shi'ite ally for it and greatly magnify the power of the mullah-ocracy

exactly the opposite result of what the neocons were looking for

97 Charles Johnson  Tue, Dec 27, 2011 12:44:18pm

re: #80 NJDhockeyfan

We 'occupied' many countries in Europe after WWII and during the Cold War to protect them from the USSR. Why is that different?

To start with, we utterly destroyed Germany's industrial base and ruthlessly wiped out the Nazi Party, putting any officials we could find on trial for crimes against humanity. World War II was a total existential conflict with an enemy that not only wanted to take over the world, but actually came close to having the power to do it.

Iraq, not so much. I can't defend the decision to go to war against Iraq any more; I don't see how it was worth the enormous cost, and the main rationale (WMD) was one of the biggest mistakes in history. Iraq was not an existential threat to the US.

98 Sionainn  Tue, Dec 27, 2011 12:44:35pm

re: #93 sagehen

Or this one

(hint -- there's a reason his fans just refer to him by his initials.)

My grandmother's podiatrist's name was Grzywacz. I never could figure out how to pronounce his name because his office staff all said it differently.

99 Gus  Tue, Dec 27, 2011 12:49:15pm

We can't turn back the hands of time. Right now it's not a matter of what we should have done. We did it and we have to move forward from here and work proactively as best we see fit to mitigate the situation. We're out of Iraq for the most part -- keep in mind that a huge modern embassy there now -- and there's no turning back.

100 NJDhockeyfan  Tue, Dec 27, 2011 12:49:25pm

Ron Paul talks about the secret societies

101 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Dec 27, 2011 12:51:00pm

re: #98 Sionainn

My grandmother's podiatrist's name was Grzywacz. I never could figure out how to pronounce his name because his office staff all said it differently.

That's the sort of thing that rapidly becomes "Dr. G".

102 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Dec 27, 2011 12:51:44pm

re: #80 NJDhockeyfan

We 'occupied' many countries in Europe after WWII and during the Cold War to protect them from the USSR. Why is that different?

Well shit, let's just totally bankrupt our country, lol

103 NJDhockeyfan  Tue, Dec 27, 2011 12:52:45pm

re: #102 WindUpBird

Well shit, let's just totally bankrupt our country, lol

The shitheads in Washington are doing a fine job with that right now.

104 aagcobb  Tue, Dec 27, 2011 1:00:01pm

Here is an example of why people are willing to accept a negative rate of return on US Treasury Bonds. When you have piles of money, there just aren't that many safe ways to invest it.

105 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Dec 27, 2011 1:04:37pm

re: #103 NJDhockeyfan

The shitheads in Washington are doing a fine job with that right now.

You're so adorably rigid

Can I has more wall street?

Maybe if we blame washington enough, we'll forget all about the people who own Washington

I wonder if I put a brick on my car's accelerator and let it fly down the street into a grade school, if you'll blame the government?

106 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Dec 27, 2011 1:12:24pm

I'm watching "Secret Sunshine" on Netflix.

It is very good, and about the saddest fucking movie I've ever seen.

I have no idea why I'm watching it.

I has the sads.

107 Gus  Tue, Dec 27, 2011 1:19:35pm

Something to cheer you guys up.

Newt Gingrich: A Merry Christmas Video from NewtHampshire

//

It's real.

108 engineer cat  Tue, Dec 27, 2011 1:21:11pm

re: #105 WindUpBird

You're so adorably rigid

Can I has more wall street?

Maybe if we blame washington enough, we'll forget all about the people who own Washington

I wonder if I put a brick on my car's accelerator and let it fly down the street into a grade school, if you'll blame the government?

it should be clear to any intelligent person that Big Money will always run governments

109 makeitstop  Tue, Dec 27, 2011 1:24:43pm

re: #105 WindUpBird

I wonder if I put a brick on my car's accelerator and let it fly down the street into a grade school, if you'll blame the government?

That is a dangerous incitement to violence.
///

110 zora  Tue, Dec 27, 2011 1:58:39pm

re: #106 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

korean drama's have 10 times the tragedy and heartbreak.

111 The Ghost of a Flea  Tue, Dec 27, 2011 2:04:25pm

re: #76 Killgore Trout

Koskidz are eager to widen the scope...

and this...

Dies Irae, Dies Irae. When it comes it is going to
make the French Revolution look like a walk in the park.

No guillotines but rusty saws in the hands of drunken executioners.

I can hear the drum roll now.

You seriously parse that as pro-violence?

It's saying that if things come to violence, it's going to be worse than French Revolution.

112 Obdicut  Tue, Dec 27, 2011 4:14:05pm

re: #23 Killgore Trout

There is nothing there about a civil war.

There is talk of vandalism, and of mobs committing violence. That's not a civil war.

Hyperbole is dumb. It's dumb in that article, and it's dumb of you in hyping up that article.


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