Anti-Muslim Bloggers Invent Another ‘Honor Killing’

Exploiting a horrible tragedy to spread hatred
Wingnuts • Views: 35,386

The so-called “counter-jihad” bloggers are covering themselves in glory again, slobbering and ranting and trying to take advantage of a terrible crime to advance their un-American agenda.

Same bigotry, different day.

This time they’ve seized on a story about a man in Texas who killed six members of his own family on Christmas morning while dressed in a Santa suit, then committed suicide. The man’s wife had left him, his home had been foreclosed upon, his business was failing, and he had filed for bankruptcy; with anyone else, these things would be considered strong motives for committing this massacre.

But because the man’s name was Aziz Yazdanpanah, and he was apparently unhappy about who his daughter was dating, these bloggers have decided it had to be an “Islamic honor killing.” And now they’re letting their bigotry run free again.

Hate group leaders Pamela Geller and Robert Spencer are out in front, as always.

Geller: ISLAMIC HONOR KILLING IN TEXAS: “SANTA KILLER” WAS MUSLIM WHO HATED DAUGHTER DATING A NON-MUSLIM!!!!! - Atlas Shrugs

The mainstream media has reported this as the “Santa killer.” No mention that it was an Islamic honor killing until this Dallas Morning News story. Our daughters and granddaughters are going to be the ones who will suffer because of for this obfuscation and excusal of barbarism.

This has been going on for years. When Amina and Sarah Said were brutally murdered by their father, also in Texas, on New Year’s Day 2008 for the same reason — having non-Muslim boyfriends — I thought, this is it. This is going to break the dam wide open. America would not, could not possibly, ignore this horror caused by and sanctioned by Islamic beliefs, assumptions, and attitudes.

And yet America continues to ignore this horror. And more and more people are victimized every day.

Spencer: Islamic honor killing in Texas: ‘Santa’ who murdered family on Christmas morning was Muslim who didn’t like his daughter dating a non-Muslim - Jihad Watch

Again and again we have seen honor killings in which fathers kill daughters who are dating non-Muslims or have supposedly besmirched the family honor by some sexual indiscretion. Lt. Todd Dearing says that motive isn’t important — which is generally only the case when Islam is involved.

The Internet’s dumbest man, Jim Hoft, manages to write two sentences without misspelling something: Texas Christmas Honor Killings: Mass Murderer Didn’t Want Daughter Dating Non-Muslim | The Gateway Pundit.

On Christmas Day Aziz Yazdanpanah shot his family dead. He didn’t want his daughter dating a non-Muslim.

To recap: Yazdanpanah killed his family members while they were all celebrating Christmas and then committed suicide. He was wearing a Santa suit. His life was falling apart in just about every possible way.

But to these vile bigots, it had to be an “honor killing” — for no other reason than the man’s nominal Muslim faith. It’s almost unbelievably disgusting.

And the posts by these bloggers are just the tip of the iceberg; their followers have no restraint whatsoever. Some of the comments posted at “counter-jihad” blogs about this tragedy:

Satan and muzzies are two of a kind…..

[…]

savages

[…]

We can’t offend muslims with Christmas but a muslim can kill his whole family on Christmas day and the media won’t even go near the fact they were all muslims.
We only find out on the crazy right-wing internet.

Once again we have the media filtering out information they don’t think we need to know.

[…]

2 miles from my house, a stinkin’ Muslim is committing honor killings. Islam, the Koran, and all true followers need to burn.

[…]

Islam. Satan’s church.

[…]

We live in the same neck of the woods. My Granny lived there for a year, was a nice complex, but over the last few years has had more and more muzzies moving into it. The entire metroplex has had a huge upspike in moozlim population. But still the Media and the masses are lulled to sleep with the peaceful moozlim rhetoric.

[…]

These men who are Muslim and believe in this should never have children or be castrated.

[…]

Americans may wish to consider how safe it is to have Muslims in their neighborhoods, but that would make us bigots wouldn’t it.

Islam is a deathcult

[…]

Here’s an example of the double bladed sword of ” PC “. This piece of camel crap doesn’t deserve to be buried in the ground!!!! They should kill a pig and bury it with him!!!!

[…]

I AM surprised that this being a raghead, he didn’t rape his daughters first.

[…]

As sad as this event is it nonetheless points out the truth that a muslime can not be anything but a brutal, murdering, control freaking, inbred son of a muslime sex slave who-e.
No matter their public persona their heart and mind is convuluted and warped to commit atrocities.

[…]

Go figure, a sheethead dressed as santa kills everyone, and then himself.

[…]

Perhaps Mr. Yazdanpanah was suffering from the terrible disease known as “SUDDEN JIHAD SYNDROME” though I doubt an autopsy will be be of any help. If he was a faithful muslim the demons probably summoned him to butcher his family for rebelling against Allah.

[…]

What a waste of life. Islam = hate and murder. Islam offers NOTHING to anyone, anywhere, anytime. Absolutely nothing.

[…]

The satanic cult of death REQUIRES BLOOD SACRIFICE for any number of offenses: being non-muslim, apostasy, misbehavior, disobedience, insulting the pedophile prophet of death, drawing the pedophile prophet of death, dating, etc.

These are only pious demon worshipers practicing their demonic cult, fully protected, by an army of feds and prosecutors all of whom report to comrade holder, as a *religion*.

There are thousands of similar comments about this story, all over the right wing blogs. These people aren’t even trying to pretend they’re not hateful bigots any more — they’ve embraced their sickness.

Jump to bottom

407 comments
1 Targetpractice  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 11:21:22am

I know I wasn't the brightest kid in school, but don't "honor killings" generally involve only the subject of the "dishonor" being killed and the person doing the killing remaining alive?

2 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 11:22:23am

It's as if they're trying for their propaganda to reach the Godwin proportions. That this will not end well for them doesn't worry me. What worries me is that it may cause troubles for peaceful Muslims.

3 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Tears  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 11:23:17am

re: #1 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

I know I wasn't the brightest kid in school, but don't "honor killings" generally involve only the subject of the "dishonor" being killed and the person doing the killing remaining alive?

A big enough mallet is being used in this case to make the square peg fit in the round hole.

4 Achilles Tang  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 11:23:58am

Weird. Do these "experts" on Islam not know that Muslims don't celebrate Christmas?

5 elizajane  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 11:24:44am

re: #1 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

I know I wasn't the brightest kid in school, but don't "honor killings" generally involve only the subject of the "dishonor" being killed and the person doing the killing remaining alive?

Oh no, honor killings always involve dressing as Santa and killing your son, wife, and in-laws. It's part of the holiday spirit.

According to some of the "feedback" on the Texas site, there was an identical killing a year ago, right down to the Santa costume. Christians. So that must have been an honor killing too, of course.

6 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Tears  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 11:25:34am

re: #4 Naso Tang

Weird. Do these "experts" on Islam not know that Muslims don't celebrate Christmas?

Of course the Muslims are celebrating the secular parts (such as Santa Claus)! That's how they carry out jihad on the vital Christian parts of the holiday!

7 Atlas Fails  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 11:26:48am

Thank God we have the internet to document this hatespeech for future generations. They probably wouldn't believe us otherwise.

8 Kragar  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 11:27:05am

Yes, it had to be an honor killing because no Christian who was in serious financial problems and was separated from his wife and kids ever showed up and killed them in a murder-suicide.

Wait a sec...

9 Kragar  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 11:27:29am

re: #4 Naso Tang

Weird. Do these "experts" on Islam not know that Muslims don't celebrate Christmas?

Taqiyya.
/

10 researchok  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 11:27:51am

There may have been an 'honor' element to the killings but stark raving crazy trumps that in this case by a long way.

11 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 11:28:45am

Honor killing usually involves 2 people. Massacre of the whole family plus suicide is in no way a honor killing.

12 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 11:29:34am

re: #9 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Taqiyya.
/

Yeah. They lie! Actually they're Christians! //

13 Charles Johnson  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 11:29:54am

re: #10 researchok

There may have been an 'honor' element to the killings but stark raving crazy trumps that in this case by a long way.

How could there possibly be 'an honor element,' when he killed himself?

14 NJDhockeyfan  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 11:30:07am

re: #4 Naso Tang

Weird. Do these "experts" on Islam not know that Muslims don't celebrate Christmas?

Some do.

For Muslims celebrating Christmas, it's a holiday, not a holy day

At a time when Christmas is being pulled in different directions, it's not unusual for Muslims to use the occasion as an entry into American culture — no different from signing up their kids for Little League. But most clerics frown on the practice.

15 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 11:30:45am

re: #14 NJDhockeyfan

Some do. But they're not the kind that would do honor killings.

16 Iwouldprefernotto  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 11:31:23am

After reading the posts you would think that someone was proposing to make honor killings legal in the US.

17 researchok  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 11:32:03am

re: #11 Sergey Romanov

Honor killing usually involves 2 people. Massacre of the whole family plus suicide is in no way a honor killing.

Not always, though.

There is a case inb Canada right now that involved the killing of two sisters and a non relative trying to help them by a father, brother, and mother .

The difference here is the whole pattern of behavior goes way outside the scope of eliminating the source of shame.

The guy was crackers, first and foremost.

18 Prideful, Arrogant Marriage Equality Advocate  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 11:32:11am

So whenever one person who is Muslim does something like this, this proves that a billion others are just like them.

Everyday the folks at Quantico work on a long list of mostly non Muslims-Raised Christian, or Jewish etc..- who are out cutting up hookers and children and eating them.
It never occurs to me to think all people raised Christian or Jewish are probably like this.

19 Kragar  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 11:33:15am

MY GOD! MORE HONOR KILLINGS!

Double murder in Lemoore thought to be murder-suicide

Two Found Dead Likely Murder-Suicide

Sure, they don't mention names, but they do that to hide Muslim involvement.

/

20 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 11:33:34am

re: #17 researchok

Not always, though.

But usually.

And this case in no way fits a honor killing pattern.

21 Kragar  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 11:34:14am

re: #13 Charles

How could there possibly be 'an honor element,' when he killed himself?

Well, obviously he just did it wrong.
/

22 researchok  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 11:34:35am

re: #13 Charles

How could there possibly be 'an honor element,' when he killed himself?

That's my point.

He may have felt the honor obligation (recall cultural mores are a hard to abandon and clearly, he was conflicted) but that was not what drove him. He was well into crazy land.

As you noted, his financial situation, job, etc would appear to be the main drivers here.

23 NJDhockeyfan  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 11:34:36am

re: #15 Sergey Romanov

Some do. But they're not the kind that would do honor killings.

I know. Just wanted Naso Tang to know that some muslims do celebrate Christmas. Many people from other religions do it as well as a holiday.

24 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 11:35:07am

re: #1 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

I know I wasn't the brightest kid in school, but don't "honor killings" generally involve only the subject of the "dishonor" being killed and the person doing the killing remaining alive?

Yes. The classic form (at least in the areas I know something about) is that the woman's father or brother kills her, thereby releasing the family from the shame of whatever she may have done, or may have been done to her, or that they imagine she may have done. It is not traditional for the honor killer to wear a Santa suit.

This is something else, called, in psych circles a 'family annihilator'. It's not culturally sanctioned, and it's not culturally specific.

Pam's crowd, however, believe that any time a Muslim kills anyone, it's for religious reasons. Muslims never have psychotic breaks, or despair over finances, or anything like that. It's always the Sharia.

25 researchok  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 11:35:56am

re: #20 Sergey Romanov

But usually.

And this case in no way fits a honor killing pattern.

It does, partially.

He believed he was being shamed.

How he responded was not in character with 'traditional' honor killings.

26 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 11:35:57am

re: #4 Naso Tang

Weird. Do these "experts" on Islam not know that Muslims don't celebrate Christmas?

Some do. A lot of Lebanese Muslims have parties or give presents for the holiday. But that's a regional thing, having to do with the relationship between the communities.

27 funky chicken  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 11:36:11am
Citing public records and interviews with friends and neighbors, media reports Monday identified Yazdanpanah and others who had died: his estranged 55-year-old wife, Fatemeh Rahmati, their 19-year-old daughter, Nona Narges Yazdanpanah, and 15-year-old son, Ali Yazdanpanah.

Friends of the family said Fatemeh Rahmati’s 58-year-old sister, Zohreh Rahmaty, and her husband, Hossein Zarei, 59, and daughter Sahra Zarei, a 22-year-old pre-med student at the University of Texas at Arlington, also were killed.

never heard of an honor killing where the perp also killed his son

religious fanatics of all stripes seem to spare their sons, from what I've seen.

28 Charles Johnson  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 11:39:08am

re: #23 NJDhockeyfan

I know. Just wanted Naso Tang to know that some muslims do celebrate Christmas. Many people from other religions do it as well as a holiday.

Yes, and Muslims who celebrate Christmas are probably the least likely candidates in the world to become jihadis.

29 researchok  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 11:39:38am

By the way and in interest of clarity, Honor Killings are not Muslim religious expressions. Nowhere does Islam mandate such behavior.

Honor killings are cultural expressions that are not limited to the Muslim community.

That religious justifications are often used for these killings in no way mitigates the reality that such behavior is forbidden by the faith.

30 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 11:39:55am

re: #16 Iwouldprefernotto

After reading the posts you would think that someone was proposing to make honor killings legal in the US.

For Pam and the gang, it's not enough that a Muslim man who kills his wife or kid, or wife and kids, gets arrested, prosecuted and sent to prison. They want him paraded around the country as an example of what creeping sharia will do to you.

31 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 11:41:15am

re: #18 Cankles McCellulite

So whenever one person who is Muslim does something like this, this proves that a billion others are just like them.

Everyday the folks at Quantico work on a long list of mostly non Muslims-Raised Christian, or Jewish etc..- who are out cutting up hookers and children and eating them.
It never occurs to me to think all people raised Christian or Jewish are probably like this.

If you Google 'killed wife and kids', the first hit up today features some guy named Sam Friedlander in upstate New York.

No, I don't think it's cultural.

32 Targetpractice  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 11:41:20am

re: #30 SanFranciscoZionist

For Pam and the gang, it's not enough that a Muslim man who kills his wife or kid, or wife and kids, gets arrested, prosecuted and sent to prison. They want him paraded around the country as an example of what creeping sharia will do to you.

Still think "Creeping Sharia" would make a cool name for a band.

33 NJDhockeyfan  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 11:42:16am

re: #28 Charles

Yes, and Muslims who celebrate Christmas are probably the least likely candidates in the world to become jihadis.

I can believe that. I haven't seen any terrorists in Santa outfits blowing themselves up in the news yet.

34 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Tears  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 11:42:28am

re: #31 SanFranciscoZionist

If you Google 'killed wife and kids', the first hit up today features some guy named Sam Friedlander in upstate New York.

No, I don't think it's cultural.

Or look at "Familicide" on wikipedia.
[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

35 Targetpractice  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 11:42:57am

re: #33 NJDhockeyfan

I can believe that. I haven't seen any terrorists in Santa outfits blowing themselves up in the news yet.

"Ho ho *BOOOM!*"

//

36 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 11:45:03am

re: #27 funky chicken

never heard of an honor killing where the perp also killed his son

religious fanatics of all stripes seem to spare their sons, from what I've seen.

Do we actually have confirmation from a source that's reliable that they were Muslims? The name is Persian, but that doesn't necessarily make them Muslims.

37 Charles Johnson  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 11:45:20am

re: #25 researchok

It does, partially.

He believed he was being shamed.

You're losing me here.

Why isn't every killing where the murderer believes he's been "shamed" an honor killing? Wouldn't you say that's a pretty common motive for murder?

38 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 11:46:35am

re: #33 NJDhockeyfan

I can believe that. I haven't seen any terrorists in Santa outfits blowing themselves up in the news yet.

There was a picture going around last year of a Palestinian guy in a Santa suit slingshotting rocks at something.

//Not that there's actually any connection, I just recall this, because, well, it was one of those photos that make you go WTF?

39 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 11:47:15am

re: #34 oaktree

Or look at "Familicide" on wikipedia.
[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

Yeah, if you look at those names, it becomes pretty clear that this is not a Muslim thing.

40 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Tears  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 11:47:27am

re: #38 SanFranciscoZionist

There was a picture going around last year of a Palestinian guy in a Santa suit slingshotting rocks at something.

//Not that there's actually any connection, I just recall this, because, well, it was one of those photos that make you go WTF?

Maybe he was in charge of the "Naughty" list?
/

41 kirkspencer  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 11:48:53am

re: #23 NJDhockeyfan

I know. Just wanted Naso Tang to know that some muslims do celebrate Christmas. Many people from other religions do it as well as a holiday.

Christmas is a time when people of all religions get together to celebrate the receiving of presents. (with apologies to Bart Simpson)

42 NJDhockeyfan  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 11:50:53am

re: #38 SanFranciscoZionist

There was a picture going around last year of a Palestinian guy in a Santa suit slingshotting rocks at something.

//Not that there's actually any connection, I just recall this, because, well, it was one of those photos that make you go WTF?

That is something that you would remember. Very unusual.

43 Eventual Carrion  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 11:51:09am

All these kids killed by their parent(s) because they believed the kids were taken over by satan. The stabbings, drownings, and assorted other means to kill these kids This is going to break the dam wide open. America would not, could not possibly, ignore this horror caused by and sanctioned by Christian beliefs, assumptions, and attitudes.

44 researchok  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 11:52:08am

re: #31 SanFranciscoZionist

If you Google 'killed wife and kids', the first hit up today features some guy named Sam Friedlander in upstate New York.

No, I don't think it's cultural.

There are some societies where this kind of behavior is more prevalent.That is why there are efforts within those societies to change the prevaiing attitude when it comes to criminalization of these acts.

Jordan, Syria, Pakistan, etc., have had these kinds of problems for decades if not longer and are actively trying to stamp out the behavior by making the punishment severe for perpetrators. In some of the nations the police authorities won't even arrest the perpetrator.

The biggest problem is the conflation of this cultural behavior with religiously sanctioned behavior, when in fact the religion does not snction such acts.

Cultural/religious conflation is found in every religion. Extremist Jews are mistreating women and girls in Israel and here and the Westboro Baptists are extreme example of people who use religion to justify their own bad behavior.

The list goes on and on. If we do not address it, it will only get wore.

All pathologies left unaddressed, escalate.

45 NJDhockeyfan  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 11:52:33am

re: #43 RayFerd

All these kids killed by their parent(s) because they believed the kids were taken over by satan. The stabbings, drownings, and assorted other means to kill these kids This is going to break the dam wide open. America would not, could not possibly, ignore this horror caused by and sanctioned by Christian beliefs, assumptions, and attitudes.

???

46 Kragar  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 11:52:35am

Looking back, I can obviously see that the guy who comes into the bar in the Lynyrd Skynyrd song "Gimme Three Steps" had to be a Muslim. Its the only way it would make sense.
/

47 The Questionable Timing of a Flea  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 11:53:04am

re: #1 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

I know I wasn't the brightest kid in school, but don't "honor killings" generally involve only the subject of the "dishonor" being killed and the person doing the killing remaining alive?

Not that it matters. The basic standard is that Muslim violence within a family is always an honor killing motivated by Muslim-ness.

But even outside the realm of Islamophobic bigots the concept of honor killings is flawed at best. Take the same crime--like a man beating his wife to death because he suspects she had an affair--and people will bend the details to make the motive honor and shame if the perp is Muslim (or, in a pinch, South Asian or Central Asian), but won't apply the term to the same violence and same motive if the perp is a Southern white dude.

It's also flawed because it takes a real problem--patriarchal violence against women and children--and pretends it's a culture-bound syndrome. "Shame"-based murder is found throughout the world, a shadow of the cross-cultural motif where the men of the family are entitled (or burdened depending on how you look at it) to steward the morality of the women. Even more fucked up, shamed-based murders tend to be a product of societies that lionize female chastity and view women as incomplete moral actors that must be "maintained" by their brother, fathers, and husbands...and will penalize and "ruin" folks that don't keep their womenfolk in line. In the extreme (out in the hinterlands of the world where social networks still have more power than rule of law) honor killings are often the end product of a social conspiracy urging the men of the family to do the killing.

48 Kragar  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 11:53:28am

re: #43 RayFerd

All these kids killed by their parent(s) because they believed the kids were taken over by satan. The stabbings, drownings, and assorted other means to kill these kids This is going to break the dam wide open. America would not, could not possibly, ignore this horror caused by and sanctioned by Christian beliefs, assumptions, and attitudes.

Oh, those people were just crazy. Its just when a Muslim does it, its representative of their entire religion.
///

49 darthstar  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 11:54:31am

re: #46 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Looking back, I can obviously see that the guy who comes into the bar in the Lynyrd Skynyrd song "Gimme Three Steps" had to be a Muslim. Its the only way it would make sense.
/

Linda-Lou was dating a guy named Ahmed?
/

50 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 11:54:33am

re: #44 researchok

There are some societies where this kind of behavior is more prevalent.That is why there are efforts within those societies to change the prevaiing attitude when it comes to criminalization of these acts.

Jordan, Syria, Pakistan, etc., have had these kinds of problems for decades if not longer and are actively trying to stamp out the behavior by making the punishment severe for perpetrators. In some of the nations the police authorities won't even arrest the perpetrator.

The biggest problem is the conflation of this cultural behavior with religiously sanctioned behavior, when in fact the religion does not snction such acts.

Cultural/religious conflation is found in every religion. Extremist Jews are mistreating women and girls in Israel and here and the Westboro Baptists are extreme example of people who use religion to justify their own bad behavior.

The list goes on and on. If we do not address it, it will only get wore.

All pathologies left unaddressed, escalate.

I would say, though, that there's a distinct break between this kind of a pattern, and any honor-related killing. Killing the whole family isn't considered to be something 'a man's gotta do' in any cultural context, unlike killing a scandalous daughter or cheating wife.

51 darthstar  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 11:55:08am

re: #48 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Oh, those people were just crazy. Its just when a Muslim does it, its representative of their entire religion.
///

Bad apples. We haz them. But they're always few.

52 NJDhockeyfan  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 11:55:30am

Oh my, Anthony Weiner is in the news again...

Anthony Weiner Wanted Threesome With Another Man, According To Mistress

Disgraced former New York Congressman Anthony Weiner was caught in online trysts with numerous women, but RadarOnline.com has exclusively learned that according to one of his mistresses, he expressed wanting a threesome - with another man.

In old conversation excerpts obtained by RadarOnline.com from mistress Traci Nobles' proposal for a tell-all book, the former politician brings up the topic of "3 ways" and reveals that the idea of being with another man is a turn on.

"I'm not really talking about other chicks... How about with another guy?" Weiner asked Nobles.

"Hmmmm, haven't done it before," Nobles said.

"It can be hot," Weiner replies.

"Are you turned on by other guys?" Nobles asked.

"Well it depends on the guy, but generally yes," Weiner divulges.

As RadarOnline.com was first to report, Georgia-native Nobles has been shopping around a juicy tell-all book about her online romps with Weiner, 47, since news of the scandal broke and he resigned.

The threesome between Weiner and Nobles never came to fruition, and his downfall came in May 2011 when he sent a lewd photo of himself to one of his 21-year-old Twitter followers, which posted for the world to see and exposed his online secret.

"Anthony's not gay though," an insider told RadarOnline.com.

"He's just very open sexually."

Weiner's wife gave birth to a bouncing baby boy, Jordan Zane Weiner, on December 21.

53 Iwouldprefernotto  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 11:55:40am

re: #16 Iwouldprefernotto

After reading the posts you would think that someone was proposing to make honor killings legal mandatory in the US.

Fixed it.

54 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 11:57:13am

re: #52 NJDhockeyfan

Oh my, Anthony Weiner is in the news again...

Anthony Weiner Wanted Threesome With Another Man, According To Mistress

Anthony Weiner. The gift that keeps on giving.

55 Eventual Carrion  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 11:58:10am

re: #37 Charles

You're losing me here.

Why isn't every killing where the murderer believes he's been "shamed" an honor killing? Wouldn't you say that's a pretty common motive for murder?

Yep. Cheating spouse, you kill spouse and lover. Honor killing. Shoot spouses dog in the process, that is just vindictive.

56 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 11:58:31am

There was a killing a few years ago up here where a man killed his entire family (and himself) because, among other things, they had recently left the JW church and were being shunned by family. I think money had something to do with it, as well.

Usually, it has to do with the perpetrator being not in a rational state of mind.

57 Kragar  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 11:58:58am

re: #49 darthstar

Linda-Lou was dating a guy named Ahmed?
/

Its obvious.
/

58 Obdicut  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 11:59:42am

re: #44 researchok

There are some societies where this kind of behavior is more prevalent.That is why there are efforts within those societies to change the prevaiing attitude when it comes to criminalization of these acts.

Do you understand there are lots and lots of family annihilators in the US?

59 Obdicut  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 12:02:10pm

US is still the world leaders on serial killers too, right?

USA! USA!

60 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 12:02:21pm

re: #58 Obdicut

Do you understand there are lots and lots of family annihilators in the US?

Our family ghost story is related to a family annihilator.

Palouse, Washington, 1930's. A man named Johnston (or Johnson, can't remember which) had become deeply depressed. He shot himself and his family (one daughter, Ida, survived, albeit blind).

At the auction afterwards, my great-grandfather bought his boots. That night, he could hear someone pacing, pacing, pacing. This went on for a few more nights until my Grandad threw the boots out.

61 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Tears  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 12:02:38pm

"Honor" killing as a cultural phenomena is a lot wider than a particular religion, or region for that matter.

re: #53 Iwouldprefernotto

Fixed it.

One does get the impression that some want old style paterfamilias instated for the United States.

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

62 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 12:02:43pm

re: #59 Obdicut

US is still the world leaders on serial killers too, right?

USA! USA!

Or are we just the leader on catching them?

(Serious. Not joking.)

63 researchok  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 12:03:11pm

re: #37 Charles

You're losing me here.

Why isn't every killing where the murderer believes he's been "shamed" an honor killing? Wouldn't you say that's a pretty common motive for murder?

It is very common.

The difference is we know it is inexcusable and wrong. Culturally, we can make no excuses for that kind of behavior.

In shame cultures, there is a belief that if the source of shame is removed, the shame is eradicated and the perpetrator is considered a 'hero' of sorts. Ths is magnified in cultures where women are treated poorly and as second class. Again, to be clear, these are not religious mandates- they are cultural expressions.

Do they know what they are doing is wrong? Of course they do. The prevailing culture gives them a way out, so to speak.

That is why there is so much obsession with Israel, and many speak in terms of humiliation. Why? Because compared to Israel, the Arab nations are for the most part dismal failures by every standard of measurement. Their solution is to eradicate Israel as opposed to elevating their own societies. To hate and destroy is far easier than to build and grow.

IN the Middle East, at least, the biggest victims of these regimes and trheir state controlled religious leadership (clerics are paid by the state and must toe the party line. How long do you think a religious leader would last if he stood up and said, 'maybe we ought to have peace?') have been the Arabs themselves. They, more than anyone else, have paid the highest price for political and politically directed religious dysfunction.

64 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 12:04:28pm

re: #55 RayFerd

Yep. Cheating spouse, you kill spouse and lover. Honor killing. Shoot spouses dog in the process, that is just vindictive.

And, to give some context, in Italy until very recently--1990s I think--the law considered killing a wife and her lover 'in the heat of passion' a special case, and would hand down incredibly light sentences. A Western example of a honor killing being culturally recognized and to some extent tolerated.

The thing that actually makes me sure this was not an honor killing, and that this man just snapped, though, is that he killed his son. That doesn't fit the pattern at all.

65 Charles Johnson  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 12:04:50pm

re: #63 researchok

Uh, this guy committed suicide after the mass murder. Don't you think that indicates he knew what he did was "wrong and inexcusable?"

66 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 12:04:59pm

Shorter Newt:

"I went to greece to see the crisis first hand and knew I had to get rid of those conventional consultants.

67 Obdicut  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 12:05:03pm

re: #62 EmmmieG

We're almost certainly the leader in producing them. We suck at catching murderers in general compared to Europe, so we're probably under-counting our serial killers.

68 researchok  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 12:05:17pm

re: #58 Obdicut

Do you understand there are lots and lots of family annihilators in the US?

Yes, there are.

But we here do not live in a society where perpetrators are routinely let go or remain unpunished.

69 Gus  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 12:05:47pm

For some folks, it's gotten to where a Muslim can't do anything without that act being ascribed to his religion. According to them, Muslims can't have psychological issues such as being bipolar, manic-depressive, schizophrenic, anti-social, etc. There are no other motivating or outlying issues with these people and they continually and erroneously blame it on their religion. It's as if though I were a victim of road rage and the perpetrator was a Muslim they would blame his rage on Islam.

70 Obdicut  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 12:05:58pm

re: #63 researchok

Oh god, not this shame/guilt bullshit again.

The world never breaks down into two convenient categories. Things are more complex than that.

71 [deleted]  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 12:06:14pm
72 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 12:06:22pm

re: #62 EmmmieG

Or are we just the leader on catching them?

(Serious. Not joking.)

Could well be.

73 researchok  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 12:06:57pm

re: #65 Charles

Uh, this guy committed suicide after the mass murder. Don't you think that indicates he knew what he did was "wrong and inexcusable?"

Absolutely. That's why I stated first and foremost the guy was crazy. There may have been an element of defending 'honor' but that was not what drove him.

74 wrenchwench  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 12:07:08pm

re: #71 superhawk

Image: sleeper.jpg

75 Pawn of the Oppressor  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 12:07:22pm

re: #36 SanFranciscoZionist

Do we actually have confirmation from a source that's reliable that they were Muslims? The name is Persian, but that doesn't necessarily make them Muslims.

They were Iranian, according to the local news, and nominally Muslim, but not in a way that dicated clothing choice, let's say.

This happened right up the street from me, in Texas terms.... About 10 minutes up the highway, just north of Baze in Grapevine (a couple of blocks north of where my girlfriend lives). Honestly there is absolutely not a SNIFF of "honor killing" or "Jihad" or any other Islamic Bogeyman here; if you can find the facebook memorial page, it's full of pictures of quite lovely girls with nice dresses on, WITH their father (I think)... A very attractive family. It's absolutely crystal clear that this massacre, yet again, is driven by a Y chromosome that got bent the wrong way, rather than religion.

Star-Telegram page on the killings... Check out the Facebook Memorial linked on the right panel

Edit: OMG... The loonies are even in the Star-Telegram comments. This is depressing.

76 wrenchwench  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 12:07:44pm

re: #71 superhawk

I don't come here anymore

FAIL.

77 Obdicut  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 12:07:47pm

re: #68 researchok

Yes, there are.

But we here do not live in a society where perpetrators are routinely let go or remain unpunished.

Well, actually, we do, since most homicides go unsolved. But leaving that aside: A family annihilator is not a family killer. Most of the them they're a narcissist who is suffering a person destruction-- in this case, his whole life falling apart-- who is convinced his family can't survive without him. So, he kills them and himself because his little world is imploding and he can't deal, or he honestly wants to end the pain for the family. It's quite well-established, and there's no need to shoe-horn the bizarre shame/guilt thing in to explain it.

78 [deleted]  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 12:08:01pm
79 makeitstop  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 12:08:24pm

re: #71 superhawk

If you 'don't come here any more,' why are you here?

80 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 12:08:46pm

re: #69 Gus 802

For some folks, it's gotten to where a Muslim can't do anything without that act being ascribed to his religion. According to them, Muslims can't have psychological issues such as being bipolar, manic-depressive, schizophrenic, anti-social, etc. There are no other motivating or outlying issues with these people and they continually and erroneously blame it on their religion. It's as if though I were a victim of road rage and the perpetrator was a Muslim they would blame his rage on Islam.

Yes, they absolutely would.

These are Robert's Rules: No Muslim ever does anything wrong or illegal simply because he is a bad person, mentally ill, hoping to profit, blindingly angry, afraid, or any of the other reasons non-Muslims commit crimes. Muslims ONLY commit crimes because Sharia demands it of them, or because they despise non-Muslims.

No exceptions!!

81 Obdicut  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 12:08:50pm

re: #79 makeitstop

If you 'don't come here any more,' why are you here?

Nobody comes here anymore, it's too crowded.

82 makeitstop  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 12:09:22pm

re: #81 Obdicut

Nobody comes here anymore, it's too crowded.

I have to admit, the Yogi quote was the first thing that came to mind.

83 researchok  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 12:10:37pm

re: #77 Obdicut

Well, actually, we do, since most homicides go unsolved. But leaving that aside: A family annihilator is not a family killer. Most of the them they're a narcissist who is suffering a person destruction-- in this case, his whole life falling apart-- who is convinced his family can't survive without him. So, he kills them and himself because his little world is imploding and he can't deal, or he honestly wants to end the pain for the family. It's quite well-established, and there's no need to shoe-horn the bizarre shame/guilt thing in to explain it.

So what you are saying is that America and western nations are no different than Pakistan or Jordan, for example when it comes to honor killings. I just want to be clear I understand you.

84 The Questionable Timing of a Flea  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 12:10:44pm

re: #37 Charles

You're losing me here.

Why isn't every killing where the murderer believes he's been "shamed" an honor killing? Wouldn't you say that's a pretty common motive for murder?

Because "honor" is a word loaded with Orientalist trope bullshit and it's axiomatic that modern European (white) folks never ever do ugly things because of shame, loss of face, or motivated by (perceived) damage to social standing. It's the lingering, oft-unrecognized remainder of about two centuries of academic pseudo-intellectualism that basically gives a tongue bath to the distinction of "Enlightened" individualist versus the benighted.

85 Charles Johnson  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 12:10:55pm

It just drives these people crazy that I broke away from their hate cult.

86 Obdicut  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 12:11:36pm

re: #83 researchok

So what you are saying is that America and western nations are no different than Pakistan or Jordan, for example when it comes to honor killings. I just want to be clear I understand you.

No. Why are you talking about honor killings? Do you get that this is a classic family annihilator scenario?

87 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 12:11:43pm

re: #71 superhawk

I have a question for you:

What are you angry about? Did you not like the old LGF, or do you not like the new one? Are you angry that Charles has abandoned the faith, or that people here don't hold his old ideas against him enough?

If you clarify this, I can give you better answers.

88 darthstar  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 12:13:03pm

re: #52 NJDhockeyfan

Oh my, Anthony Weiner is in the news again...

You consider this a news site?

89 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 12:14:02pm

re: #88 darthstar

You consider this a news site?

Tsk. Really. They have nothing on that page about Sinead's marriage breaking up.

90 researchok  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 12:14:17pm

re: #86 Obdicut

No. Why are you talking about honor killings? Do you get that this is a classic family annihilator scenario?

Obdi, the conversation moved on from honor killings a while ago.

In fact, I made it a poi8nt t6o note that was not honor that drove this guy.

91 Charles Johnson  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 12:14:53pm

re: #87 SanFranciscoZionist

He won't be answering your questions, sorry. I'm not interested in anything these people have to say, and I'm certainly not going to let them say it here.

And by the way, there are PLENTY of old LGF posts that are critical of Islam. These people make up conspiracy theories about me, that I've scrubbed everything from my archives, when in truth the percentage of deleted posts at LGF is about 0.07%. And I'll defend every deletion.

92 Killgore Trout  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 12:15:03pm

On the topic of Old LGF vs New LGF: Personally my views haven't changed all that much. Not all of the OLD LGF threads hold up to scrutiny however I still remain critical of religiously sanctioned violence, terrorism, honor killings and backwards practices such as world wide riots and killings over cartoons. I think it's a serious oversight that modern Western liberals tend to overlook or whitewash the problems. The Muslim world has many problems, many/most are self inflicted problems with deep rooted religious and cultural causes.

93 NJDhockeyfan  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 12:15:33pm

re: #89 SanFranciscoZionist

Tsk. Really. They have nothing on that page about Sinead's marriage breaking up.

Yes they do!

94 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 12:15:48pm

re: #88 darthstar

You consider this a news site?

Generally speaking, hot pink on a news page means celebrity gossip or a middle school aged girl's blog.

95 Gus  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 12:15:54pm

re: #89 SanFranciscoZionist

Tsk. Really. They have nothing on that page about Sinead's marriage breaking up.

Let me see if they have something up on Gawker.

//

96 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 12:16:12pm

re: #93 NJDhockeyfan

Yes they do!

I stand corrected.

:)

97 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Tears  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 12:16:33pm

re: #84 The Ghost of a Flea

Because "honor" is a word loaded with Orientalist trope bullshit and it's axiomatic that modern European (white) folks never ever do ugly things because of shame, loss of face, or motivated by (perceived) damage to social standing. It's the lingering, oft-unrecognized remainder of about two centuries of academic pseudo-intellectualism that basically gives a tongue bath to the distinction of "Enlightened" individualist versus the benighted.

I note that the Wikipedia page on "Honor Killing" gave some shift to the concept that it is cultural, not inherently religious, and also not simply Middle Eastern. (For instance a cite to Haitian criminal code.)

But most of the content is Muslim/Middle Eastern in context along with mention of the similar issue in India.

But from a wider historical view how similar is this conceptually to Western families (especially of means) disinheriting their daughters (or sons) due to their choices regarding spouses and boy/girl friends. Or, to dig in another area, of paying attention to males of the underclasses.

99 darthstar  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 12:18:58pm

Romney with a baby:
[Link: desmond.yfrog.com...]

Obama with a baby:
[Link: desmond.yfrog.com...]

Romney looks like he'd be more comfortable with the baby strapped to the roof of a car.

100 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 12:19:17pm

re: #98 Gus 802

I've never seen a GIF so in need of a valium.

101 NJDhockeyfan  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 12:20:21pm

Occupy Wall Street plus Anonymous may equal city computer outages

Note to the Homeland Security Department: expect hackers to join forces with offline activists in 2012 for strikes on transportation computer systems and other critical networks. According to annual predictions released by security firm McAfee, anti-Wall Street demonstrators occupying parks in cities across the country and digital vigilantes associated with hacktivist group Anonymous may soon operate as "cyberoccupiers."

"Think about the effectiveness if you actually shut down transportation in the place that you're sitting in at," said Dave Marcus, security research director for McAfee Labs. "You actually take the step of taking their power offline." For example, Anonymous this summer wanted to get back at the Bay Area Rapid Transit District for jamming passengers' cellphones amid demonstrations against BART police violence. The instigators could have made a bigger statement by crippling the railway's control system instead of doing what they did -- leaking the e-mail addresses of its riders and posting nude photos of its spokesman.

Other 2012 scenarios published on Wednesday envision the Defense Department staging cyberwarfare games to scare off the likes of the Chinese military. The predictions also posit that hacktivists will ramp up disclosures of government officials' e-mails and other private data. The goal of McAfee's yearly assessments is to convince authorities and network administrators to take threats more seriously, Marcus said. "We don't write them to be doomsayers," he stressed. "It's possible to secure these types of systems. But part of that preparedness may require changing behavior."

102 Big Steve  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 12:20:47pm

re: #92 Killgore Trout

On the topic of Old LGF vs New LGF: Personally my views haven't changed all that much. Not all of the OLD LGF threads hold up to scrutiny however I still remain critical of religiously sanctioned violence, terrorism, honor killings and backwards practices such as world wide riots and killings over cartoons. I think it's a serious oversight that modern Western liberals tend to overlook or whitewash the problems. The Muslim world has many problems, many/most are self inflicted problems with deep rooted religious and cultural causes.

KT.....I remember back in the day when you would get down dinged for being too liberal and fair.......then there was a period where you were mainstream LGF and got mostly updings......and now you are considered too conservative and get down dings again. Through out it all I have always read your posts with interest.

103 Obdicut  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 12:21:23pm

re: #97 oaktree

Lots and lots of the homeless street kids are that way because their parents couldn't deal with them being gay. It's not a death sentence, but it's a cruel, cruel thing to inflict on a kid, by parents ashamed of their kids sexualities.

Then we've got the kids beaten by their parents for doing things that embarrassed or shamed them.

104 Big Steve  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 12:22:47pm

So....is the Andrea Yates case now a "honor killing?"

105 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 12:22:50pm

re: #99 darthstar

Romney with his own grandchild:

[Link: www.flickr.com...]

Since his kids and grandkids seem to like him, maybe he just likes to hold babies so they're facing the camera?

106 makeitstop  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 12:23:51pm

re: #104 Big Steve

So...is the Andrea Yates case now a "honor killing?"

No, that one was the fault of liberal Democrats.

Ask, Newt, he'll tell ya.
/

107 Killgore Trout  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 12:24:00pm

re: #102 Big Steve

KT...I remember back in the day when you would get down dinged for being too liberal and fair...then there was a period where you were mainstream LGF and got mostly updings...and now you are considered too conservative and get down dings again. Through out it all I have always read your posts with interest.

Thanks.

108 Eventual Carrion  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 12:24:54pm

re: #45 NJDhockeyfan

???

Andrea Yates for one. Drowned her 5 kids in a bathtub in Houston.

Reason:
While in prison, Andrea stated she had considered killing the children for two years, adding that they thought she was not a good mother and claimed her sons were developing improperly. She told her jail psychiatrist: "It was the seventh deadly sin. My children weren't righteous. They stumbled because I was evil. The way I was raising them, they could never be saved. They were doomed to perish in the fires of hell." She also told her jail psychiatrist that Satan influenced her children and made them more disobedient

There are other examples. Should we banish christians from the United States? Should this religious honor killing be tolerated from these insane religious people? Do you need more examples, there are really quite a few.

109 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 12:25:01pm

re: #97 oaktree

I note that the Wikipedia page on "Honor Killing" gave some shift to the concept that it is cultural, not inherently religious, and also not simply Middle Eastern. (For instance a cite to Haitian criminal code.)

But most of the content is Muslim/Middle Eastern in context along with mention of the similar issue in India.

But from a wider historical view how similar is this conceptually to Western families (especially of means) disinheriting their daughters (or sons) due to their choices regarding spouses and boy/girl friends. Or, to dig in another area, of paying attention to males of the underclasses.

Many cultures have distinct patterns of killings that are considered acceptable, or less transgressive than others, because of honor considerations.

In general, the Western version tends toward killing an unfaithful wife or lover, and whoever she was cheatin' on you with. We also have a strong tradition of killing in revenge for slights to our family, or personal (masculine) dignity.

There's also the issue of disinheritance and kicking out of the family, which occurs worldwide.

The 'honor killing' pattern we're familiar with exists throughout the Muslim world, but similar things (and some distinct ones) happen in Hindu and Sikh communities as well, and I've been told that Jordanian Christians have also been known to commit honor killings.

All this stuff is fascinating, if disturbing, but the problems arise when Pam and the Gang pop up to put their own insane spin on things.

110 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 12:25:52pm

re: #104 Big Steve

So...is the Andrea Yates case now a "honor killing?"

No, but if her husband had been Muslim, you can bet that Pam and the Gang would have been all over that case.

111 Obdicut  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 12:26:14pm

re: #90 researchok

When you keep saying things like "There are some societies where this kind of behavior is more prevalent." I'm worried that you're seriously confused. It really seems like you're conflating family annihilation with honor killing. Family annihilation-- and murder in general-- is disturbingly prevalent in the US. Our murder rate is higher than many Islamic countries. So if you're talking about the behavior of killing families, we've got that, if you're talking about the behavior of murder, we've got that, too, in bucketloads.

112 Charles Johnson  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 12:26:55pm

re: #92 Killgore Trout

On the topic of Old LGF vs New LGF: Personally my views haven't changed all that much. Not all of the OLD LGF threads hold up to scrutiny however I still remain critical of religiously sanctioned violence, terrorism, honor killings and backwards practices such as world wide riots and killings over cartoons. I think it's a serious oversight that modern Western liberals tend to overlook or whitewash the problems. The Muslim world has many problems, many/most are self inflicted problems with deep rooted religious and cultural causes.

I'm as opposed to religious extremism of all kinds as I've ever been. But the problem today is that criticism of Islam has been completely dominated by the loudest, most irrational bigots, and I want absolutely nothing to do with them. In fact, I think it's as important to debunk the garbage they're spewing as it is to criticize any religion.

113 engineer cat  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 12:27:14pm

re: #92 Killgore Trout

The Muslim world has Human society has many problems, many/most are self inflicted problems with deep rooted religious and cultural causes.

114 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 12:27:40pm

re: #108 RayFerd

Andrea Yates for one. Drowned her 5 kids in a bathtub in Houston.

Reason:
While in prison, Andrea stated she had considered killing the children for two years, adding that they thought she was not a good mother and claimed her sons were developing improperly. She told her jail psychiatrist: "It was the seventh deadly sin. My children weren't righteous. They stumbled because I was evil. The way I was raising them, they could never be saved. They were doomed to perish in the fires of hell." She also told her jail psychiatrist that Satan influenced her children and made them more disobedient

There are other examples. Should we banish christians from the United States? Should this religious honor killing be tolerated from these insane religious people? Do you need more examples, there are really quite a few.

I heard they leave Andrea off of her meds for kindness.
She suffered from post-partum psychosis, and should never have had more than one child so she could stay on her meds.

115 jaunte  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 12:28:00pm

Has Pam made a Butterball connection to the Yazdanpanah case yet?

116 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 12:28:58pm

re: #115 jaunte

Has Pam made a Butterball connection to the Yazdanpanah case yet?

Restraining myself from making all kinds of really tacky jokes, considering that this was an awful tragedy.

117 Killgore Trout  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 12:32:38pm

re: #112 Charles

I'm as opposed to religious extremism of all kinds as I've ever been. But the problem today is that criticism of Islam has been completely dominated by the loudest, most irrational bigots, and I want absolutely nothing to do with them. In fact, I think it's as important to debunk the garbage they're spewing as it is to criticize any religion.

It was sad to see even someone like Pat Condell fall into the bigot brigade. That one still breaks my heart.

118 Pawn of the Oppressor  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 12:33:20pm

For a little more local perspective - Mr. Yazdanpanah was about the fifth or sixth guy to go off his nut and kill a bunch of people he knew in Tarrant County alone this year. Here's the list, again, off of the sidebar in the Star-Telegram's story on the killings:

Domestic shootings with multiple victims in Tarrant County in 2011

One of the shooters was Vietnamese, and yet, I don't hear anybody worrying about that...

119 engineer cat  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 12:33:36pm

Jihad Watch

clearly they wouldn't want to miss a Hate Opportunity just because it's a horrifying family tragedy, at christmas no less, that no decent person would think to talk about they way these people do

120 Killgore Trout  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 12:34:53pm

re: #113 engineer dog

True but I don't think moral relativism should be applied. All societies and cultures have problems but not all problems are equal.

121 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 12:35:17pm

re: #118 Pawn of the Oppressor

For a little more local perspective - Mr. Yazdanpanah was about the fifth or sixth guy to go off his nut and kill a bunch of people he knew in Tarrant County alone this year. Here's the list, again, off of the sidebar in the Star-Telegram's story on the killings:

Domestic shootings with multiple victims in Tarrant County in 2011

One of the shooters was Vietnamese, and yet, I don't hear anybody worrying about that...

They're leaving that one for the obsessive Vietnamese-haters.

122 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 12:36:00pm

re: #120 Killgore Trout

True but I don't think moral relativism should be applied. All societies and cultures have problems but not all problems are equal.

I think that trying to balance the scales in some sort of way is sort of besides the point. You do what you can to fix what you can.

123 jaunte  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 12:36:23pm

re: #118 Pawn of the Oppressor

Dalton James Bennett Jr. is accused of fatally shooting his estranged wife, Sheryl Bennett, and her friends Jose Reyes and Tana Todd and wounding Todd's husband, Johnny Todd, in Arlington. Sheryl Bennett had five children ages 1, 3, 7, 10 and 12; Tana Todd had three, ages 3, 5 and 6.
[Link: www.star-telegram.com...]

Doesn't fit the creeping sharia story.

124 researchok  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 12:36:41pm

re: #111 Obdicut

When you keep saying things like "There are some societies where this kind of behavior is more prevalent." I'm worried that you're seriously confused. It really seems like you're conflating family annihilation with honor killing. Family annihilation-- and murder in general-- is disturbingly prevalent in the US. Our murder rate is higher than many Islamic countries. So if you're talking about the behavior of killing families, we've got that, if you're talking about the behavior of murder, we've got that, too, in bucketloads.

Yes Obdi, you're right.

The abundance of papers, books ongoing research and even human rights, efforts, women's rights and political rights endeavors from both within and without those countries are meaningless.

125 Eventual Carrion  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 12:37:16pm

re: #114 EmmmieG

I heard they leave Andrea off of her meds for kindness.
She suffered from post-partum psychosis, and should never have had more than one child so she could stay on her meds.

I don't doubt that the meds (or lack of) had a large (possibly major) role in her actions. The religion part seems to just be a justification/catalyst in her mind for what she did. I used her as an example because it was one that was still fresh in my mind and pointed to a recent example of christian religion used to justify murder. The guy in this post may have needed meds also and it could have been a catalyst for the atrocity.

126 darthstar  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 12:39:49pm

re: #118 Pawn of the Oppressor

Domestic shootings with multiple victims in Tarrant County in 2011

Wow...those Texans do crime right. Let's see what I can find in my county...
July:

A Princeton-by-the-Sea felon accused of accidentally torching his storage trailer by using a defective propane torch to smoke methamphetamine was sentenced to jail for possessing weapons and black powder turned up by the blaze. John Louis Blanchard, 65, pleaded no contest...

November:

An early-morning downtown Half Moon Bay fire Sunday was extinguished by deputies on patrol after they spotted smoke coming from a commercial building complex at 840 Main St.

Nope...no mass murders of family....

127 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 12:39:52pm

It is seriously depressing how many stories we can bring up about family annihilators without even trying.

128 NJDhockeyfan  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 12:40:05pm

Iran navy chief says closing Gulf ‘really easy’

TEHRAN – Closing off the Gulf to oil tankers will be “easier than drinking a glass of water” for Iran if the Islamic state deems it necessary, state television reported on Wednesday, ratcheting up fears over the world’s most important oil chokepoint.

“Closing the Strait of Hormuz for Iran’s armed forces is really easy … or as Iranians say it will be easier than drinking a glass of water,” Iran’s navy chief Habibollah Sayyari told Iran’s English language Press TV.

“But right now, we don’t need to shut it as we have the Sea of Oman under control and we can control the transit,” said Sayyari, who is leading 10 days of exercises in the Strait.

129 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 12:40:19pm

re: #124 researchok

Yes Obdi, you're right.

The abundance of papers, books ongoing research and even human rights, efforts, women's rights and political rights endeavors from both within and without those countries are meaningless.

You guys are talking at total cross-purposes right now.

Are those papers etc. about honor killings, or family annihilator pattern killings? Two patterns. Two social phenomena.

130 researchok  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 12:41:03pm

re: #117 Killgore Trout

He had to escalate to maintain his popularity

131 engineer cat  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 12:41:05pm

re: #120 Killgore Trout

All societies and cultures have problems but not all problems are equal.

i disagree

you might want to get into a pissing contest about who's culture is the most bad and claim that some cultures are superior, but i don't

do i have to tell you where you are headed with this kind of thinking?

132 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 12:41:27pm

re: #127 EmmmieG

It is seriously depressing how many stories we can bring up about family annihilators without even trying.

It is a depressingly common thing. They always say you're most likely to be murdered by a family member--this is what they're talking about.

133 Gus  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 12:41:48pm

Death Penalty For Gays: Ron Paul Courts The Religious Fringe In Iowa

Paul’s Iowa chair, Drew Ivers, recently touted the endorsement of Rev. Phillip G. Kayser, a pastor at the Dominion Covenant Church in Nebraska who also draws members from Iowa, putting out a press release praising “the enlightening statements he makes on how Ron Paul’s approach to government is consistent with Christian beliefs.” But Kayser’s views on homosexuality go way beyond the bounds of typical anti-gay evangelical politics and into the violent fringe: he recently authored a paper arguing for criminalizing homosexuality and even advocated imposing the death penalty against offenders based on his reading of Biblical law.

“Difficulty in implementing Biblical law does not make non-Biblical penology just,” he argued. “But as we have seen, while many homosexuals would be executed, the threat of capital punishment can be restorative. Biblical law would recognize as a matter of justice that even if this law could be enforced today, homosexuals could not be prosecuted for something that was done before.”

Reached by phone, Kayser confirmed to TPM that he believed in reinstating BIblical punishments for homosexuals — including the death penalty — even if he didn’t see much hope for it happening anytime soon. While he said he and Paul disagree on gay rights, noting that Paul recently voted for repealing Don’t Ask Don’t Tell, he supported the campaign because he believed Paul’s federalist take on the Constitution would allow states more latitude to implement fundamentalist law. Especially since Kayser believes that there is no separation of Church and State under his own interpretation of the Constitution.

134 Killgore Trout  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 12:42:24pm

re: #128 NJDhockeyfan

Iran navy chief says closing Gulf ‘really easy’

I'm not sure what the serious military analysts think but I bet we could wipe our most of their military capabilities within 2-3 weeks.

135 researchok  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 12:42:57pm

re: #129 SanFranciscoZionist

You guys are talking at total cross-purposes right now.

Are those papers etc. about honor killings, or family annihilator pattern killings? Two patterns. Two social phenomena.

Yes.

I was referring honor killings from the get go.

I did not once address annihilators.

136 Obdicut  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 12:43:09pm

re: #124 researchok

Yes Obdi, you're right.

The abundance of papers, books ongoing research and even human rights, efforts, women's rights and political rights endeavors from both within and without those countries are meaningless.

What are you talking about? I cannot understand for the life of me why you're passively-aggressively accusing me of saying honor killings don't exist or something.

Honor killings exist. This isn't an honor killing. This is a family annihilator killing, something we have lots of in the US. We have lots of other kinds of murder too-- more than any other first world country.

We have more killing of kids under the age of five than any other country (except, of course, those countries where they practice female infanticide) and most of those killings are by the parents of the child.

Killing a spouse or ex-spouse, often over infidelity, is one of the main causes of murder in the US, and a lot of people get reduced sentences for doing so do to the heat of the moment, the passion that we tend to feel excuses murder.

137 jaunte  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 12:43:35pm

re: #127 EmmmieG

Nine U.S. domestic violence mass murders listed at this website, from July to October, 2011:[Link: familyjusticecenter.com...]

138 Gus  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 12:44:13pm

Clown show starting at #occupycaucus.

139 Romantic Heretic  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 12:44:22pm

re: #115 jaunte

Has Pam made a Butterball connection to the Yazdanpanah case yet?

Pam can't eat turkey because it would be cannibalism.

140 researchok  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 12:44:34pm

re: #136 Obdicut

What are you talking about? I cannot understand for the life of me why you're passively-aggressively accusing me of saying honor killings don't exist or something.

Honor killings exist. This isn't an honor killing. This is a family annihilator killing, something we have lots of in the US. We have lots of other kinds of murder too-- more than any other first world country.

We have more killing of kids under the age of five than any other country (except, of course, those countries where they practice female infanticide) and most of those killings are by the parents of the child.

Killing a spouse or ex-spouse, often over infidelity, is one of the main causes of murder in the US, and a lot of people get reduced sentences for doing so do to the heat of the moment, the passion that we tend to feel excuses murder.

Yes Obdi, I addressed this case early on.

I specifically noted this was not an honor killing. My subsequent remarks were about honor killings.

Not annihilators.

141 Obdicut  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 12:45:06pm

re: #140 researchok

Yes Obdi, I addressed this case early on.

I specifically noted this was not an honor killing subsequent remarks were about honor killings.

Okay, I guess the simple question would be: Why are you talking about honor killings, then?

142 Pawn of the Oppressor  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 12:45:47pm

re: #126 darthstar

Wow...those Texans do crime right.

Ayyyup... Then there's the two-death crash-and-shooting the other day, and earlier in the year, the murder of a pastor and the savage beating of his assistant inside their church, both of which happened within a half a mile of my workplace... I just shrug and say "Arlington". We get loopy sh-t like that here. I refer to the mass of decaying urbanization south of Rt. 30 between South Dallas and South Ft. Worth as "The Shit Belt" for a reason.

143 Gus  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 12:45:51pm

Dumb.

144 sagehen  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 12:46:04pm

re: #134 Killgore Trout

I'm not sure what the serious military analysts think but I bet we could wipe our most of their military capabilities within 2-3 weeks.

If we sink all their ships in the straits, it will hamper navigation just as much as them patrolling it would.

145 researchok  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 12:46:50pm

re: #141 Obdicut

Okay, I guess the simple question would be: Why are you talking about honor killings, then?

Because the remarks were made in reference to an exchange about honor killings (not this case) with CJ.

146 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 12:46:50pm

re: #135 researchok

Yes.

I was referring honor killings from the get go.

I did not once address annihilators.

Except that since Obdicut was talking about annhiliators the conversation got very odd...

147 researchok  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 12:47:51pm

re: #146 SanFranciscoZionist

Except that since Obdicut was talking about annhiliators the conversation got very odd...

Yes. He was talking about annihilators while I was talking about honor killings.

148 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 12:48:21pm

re: #147 researchok

Yes. He was talking about annihilators while I was talking about honor killings.

I'll let you guys try to figure this one out.

149 researchok  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 12:49:33pm

re: #148 SanFranciscoZionist

I'll let you guys try to figure this one out.

Nothing to figure out.

I was talking about one thing, he another.

150 Eventual Carrion  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 12:50:17pm

re: #134 Killgore Trout

I'm not sure what the serious military analysts think but I bet we could wipe our most of their military capabilities within 2-3 weeks.

And pay for the operation with their oil money? Where have I heard that before? Would be a slam dunk.

151 Charles Johnson  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 12:50:19pm

Robert Spencer tweets:

@lizardoid @atlasshrugs Off your meds again, eh, Charles?

My reply:

.@jihadwatchRS: @lizardoid @atlasshrugs Off your meds again, eh, Charles? | Must be all the Butterball shariah turkey I ate for Christmas.

152 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 12:51:37pm

You cannot deny that we have made some progress.

There's a very depressing series of articles here: [Link: www.oregonlive.com...] in my local paper.

It's about a war bride from Iceland who came over here married to a seriously evil man. She had two kids, then they divorced after he actually put her in the hospital. She had the temerity to ask him for the money she needed to get her kids back.

She disappeared at the age of 23. Nobody knew to go looking for her. No body turned up, apparently. Her family in Iceland could never find her, and somehow the police out here were not helpful.

Her children were adopted out, which, according to his other children, was the best thing that could have happened to them.

My thoughts are that in today's world, she might have been able to seek out help. The police at least would have taken her seriously. Could he still have killed her? Possibly, but at least we try now.

153 Achilles Tang  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 12:52:15pm

re: #14 NJDhockeyfan

Some do.

For Muslims celebrating Christmas, it's a holiday, not a holy day

Yes, and I'm an atheist and Christmas is our biggest time of the year, but for devout Muslims (of the "Jihad" mentality) Christmas cannot be separated from the religion any more than mulled wine can be. For example in Saudi even Christmas trees are banned.

154 Gus  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 12:53:13pm

re: #150 RayFerd

And pay for the operation with their oil money? Where have I heard that before? Would be a slam dunk.

Right now everything seems to have blown over -- for the time being. However, if need be the Strait of Hormuz's shipping lanes will be kept open with the full might of the US Navy 5th Fleet and by force if required. President Obama no doubt approves of such a contingency plan.

155 Obdicut  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 12:53:47pm

re: #145 researchok

Because the remarks were made in reference to an exchange about honor killings (not this case) with CJ.

Okay, see, you responded to SFZ's reference to family annhiliator, NOT honor killer, Samuel Friedlander, by saying:

There are some societies where this kind of behavior is more prevalent

So obviously, if you're responding to someone talking about family annihilators, saying 'this kind of behavior', you're then talking about family annihilators.

156 The Questionable Timing of a Flea  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 12:55:04pm

re: #127 EmmmieG

It is seriously depressing how many stories we can bring up about family annihilators without even trying.

Not to be super depressing, but consider that family annihilators make big press. Dads killing their daughters for whatever reason rarely goes national, and unless it's sensational there's not a lot of discussion about the motive of each case. Whenever the subject of honor killings comes up, I always thinking about the fact that we don't have an equivalent label for "the motive of the dad killing his kid" which sort of makes the discussion of "what we do versus what they do" difficult.

157 Obdicut  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 12:56:59pm

re: #156 The Ghost of a Flea

There's that case of the guy who shot his daughter's girlfriend and her mother, because he couldn't deal with his daughter being gay. That guy is an especial asshole.

All this fucking vanity. The world has to go the way they want or they start killing people. What selfish assholes.

158 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 12:57:29pm

re: #156 The Ghost of a Flea

Not to be super depressing, but consider that family annihilators make big press. Dads killing their daughters for whatever reason rarely goes national, and unless it's sensational there's not a lot of discussion about the motive of each case. Whenever the subject of honor killings comes up, I always thinking about the fact that we don't have an equivalent label for "the motive of the dad killing his kid" which sort of makes the discussion of "what we do versus what they do" difficult.

Yes, given the number of times that there is no motive beyond the murky motives of a psychopath.

159 Obdicut  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 12:59:50pm

re: #158 EmmmieG

Yes, given the number of times that there is no motive beyond the murky motives of a psychopath.

One of the disturbingly common motives given by fathers that murder their children is wanting to make the wife suffer, especially when they're estranged.

Such an inversion of love.

160 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 1:01:12pm

re: #156 The Ghost of a Flea

Not to be super depressing, but consider that family annihilators make big press. Dads killing their daughters for whatever reason rarely goes national, and unless it's sensational there's not a lot of discussion about the motive of each case. Whenever the subject of honor killings comes up, I always thinking about the fact that we don't have an equivalent label for "the motive of the dad killing his kid" which sort of makes the discussion of "what we do versus what they do" difficult.

It's a pointless conversation. You can look at total murder rates between countries. You can identify patterns of behavior between cultures. But there's simply no way to create some sort of overall worldwide murder metric.

The biggest problem with honor killings, from what I know, is that there's a tendency in many places to let the perps walk, or for a survivor to be in real danger from other members of the community. That's the problem--when society condones murder.

161 The Questionable Timing of a Flea  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 1:02:57pm

re: #158 EmmmieG

Yes, given the number of times that there is no motive beyond the murky motives of a psychopath.

Well, I was going the opposite direction, which is that in the US the label "honor killing" isn't used even when a father kills his daughter, because we don't track the why of it.

Honestly, I don't think most killers are psychopaths in the clinical sense of "...lack of empathy and remorse, shallow emotions, egocentricity, and deceptiveness."

162 BishopX  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 1:04:28pm

re: #134 Killgore Trout

I'm not sure what the serious military analysts think but I bet we could wipe our most of their military capabilities within 2-3 weeks.

Iran cannot close the strait militarily. Ships will still be able to transit. Will any oil company send a tanker through? Probably not, it would simply be too risky. Oil Tankers are basically giant tanks of flamable liquid wrapped in a steel shell. Anything which can kill a tank will cause serious problems for an oil tanker. And Iran has enough artillery and mobile rockets to pose a continued threat unless someone (probably the US) phyically siezes parts of the Iranian coast.

163 engineer cat  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 1:05:38pm

i could imagine that a discussion of this particular murder/suicide in a muslim country might revolve around how it reveals the serious problems in american society and would not have happened in a place with an islamic culture

164 Obdicut  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 1:05:56pm

re: #160 SanFranciscoZionist

There's been a slow movement to remove the penalty benefit for the 'crime of passion' thing, in many states. As in, saying "I saw my wife fucking another man so I murdered her and so I deserve less jail time." They're gone in some states, still there in others.

Of course, it used to be that murdering a black man was acceptable if you were a white person and had some sort of cover story for it.

165 Achilles Tang  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 1:06:59pm

re: #161 The Ghost of a Flea

Well, I was going the opposite direction, which is that in the US the label "honor killing" isn't used even when a father kills his daughter, because we don't track the why of it.

Honestly, I don't think most killers are psychopaths in the clinical sense of "...lack of empathy and remorse, shallow emotions, egocentricity, and deceptiveness."

I believe that a large percentage of murderers in prison are psychopaths. Much more than the population at large, but I don't recall the percentages exactly. Perhaps 25%.

166 BishopX  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 1:07:47pm

re: #164 Obdicut

On the other hand we've seen an increase of the insanity defense used in what used to be considered crimes of passion. Which is really just another way of saying the same thing.

167 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 1:08:04pm

re: #163 engineer dog

i could imagine that a discussion of this particular murder/suicide in a muslim country might revolve around how it reveals the serious problems in american society and would not have happened in a place with an islamic culture

Islamic cultures don't have family annhilators? (I have no idea.)

168 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 1:09:10pm

re: #164 Obdicut

There's been a slow movement to remove the penalty benefit for the 'crime of passion' thing, in many states. As in, saying "I saw my wife fucking another man so I murdered her and so I deserve less jail time." They're gone in some states, still there in others.

In a lot of places.

Bleah.

169 Obdicut  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 1:09:18pm

re: #166 BishopX

I was happy to see that 'gay panic' defense fail in all the times I've seen it used. Most ridiculous defense ever.

170 engineer cat  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 1:09:21pm

re: #165 Naso Tang

I believe that a large percentage of murderers in prison are psychopaths. Much more than the population at large, but I don't recall the percentages exactly. Perhaps 25%.

it seems that psychiatrists estimate a disturbingly large percentage of people in general as suffering from various psychopathologies

171 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 1:09:58pm

re: #169 Obdicut

I was happy to see that 'gay panic' defense fail in all the times I've seen it used. Most ridiculous defense ever.

If women went around killing every guy who made a pass at us, we wouldn't be able to walk for the bodies.

172 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 1:10:28pm

re: #170 engineer dog

it seems that psychiatrists estimate a disturbingly large percentage of people in general as suffering from various psychopathologies

Someone should discuss this with the manufacturer.

173 Obdicut  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 1:12:13pm

re: #172 SanFranciscoZionist

Someone should discuss this with the manufacturer.

I'm sorry, that phone number has been disconnected.

174 engineer cat  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 1:12:34pm

re: #167 SanFranciscoZionist

Islamic cultures don't have family annhilators? (I have no idea.)

but since it took place in the united states, they would be inclined to see it as something caused by living in the united states

murders, obviously, take place in all cultures, but it's human nature to think up reasons why one's own culture is superior, and that problems that happen to occur in other places or among "other types" of people are caused by their culture and not your own

175 engineer cat  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 1:13:13pm

re: #172 SanFranciscoZionist

re: #173 Obdicut

heh!

176 sagehen  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 1:13:45pm

re: #171 SanFranciscoZionist

If women went around killing every guy who made a pass at us, we wouldn't be able to walk for the bodies.

And we'd never get laid again.

177 Achilles Tang  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 1:14:43pm

re: #170 engineer dog

it seems that psychiatrists estimate a disturbingly large percentage of people in general as suffering from various psychopathologies

My understanding is that psychopaths don't suffer. They like how they are.

178 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 1:15:52pm

re: #177 Naso Tang

My understanding is that psychopaths don't suffer. They like how they are.

Yet another reason why treating them is really difficult. The lightbulb has no intention of changing.

179 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Tears  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 1:17:46pm

re: #134 Killgore Trout

I'm not sure what the serious military analysts think but I bet we could wipe our most of their military capabilities within 2-3 weeks.

Well, how mobile and/or fortified are their land-based SSMs? I presume the basis for their "closing" of the Gulf would be based on threatening tankers transiting the Straits of Hormuz. And that would be based on land-based assets as well as their limited naval assets (subs, frigates, patrol craft). At which point it becomes something more than a high-seas confrontation and involves escalation into the US potentially wanting or needing to attack targets in Iran itself.

180 kirkspencer  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 1:20:46pm

re: #134 Killgore Trout

I'm not sure what the serious military analysts think but I bet we could wipe our most of their military capabilities within 2-3 weeks.

Closing it would probably be easy.

Keeping it closed is the trick.

181 engineer cat  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 1:23:21pm

anybody who thinks that fighting iran would be easy is a moron

182 darthstar  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 1:25:01pm

re: #134 Killgore Trout

I'm not sure what the serious military analysts think but I bet we could wipe our most of their military capabilities within 2-3 weeks.

It took us 12 years PLUS the six weeks of shock-n-awe to disarm Saddam. We only went in after we knew he was disarmed to the point where he couldn't fight back with any effectiveness. We're about as close to a 2-3 week destruction of Iran's military as Iran is to having a nuclear weapon...years.

183 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 1:25:31pm

re: #181 engineer dog

anybody who thinks that fighting iran would be easy is a moron

I hear they have mountains.

//Sorry, you're right, but I couldn't resist.

184 darthstar  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 1:25:39pm

re: #181 engineer dog

anybody who thinks that fighting iran would be easy is a moron

Or a really high scorer on video games.

185 makeitstop  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 1:27:23pm

re: #181 engineer dog

anybody who thinks that fighting iran would be easy is a moron

There will always be those who subscribe to the Rumsfeld Cakewalk theory of war. After all, we do have the most powerful military on the planet.

But having the most badass chainsaw in the neighborhood doesn't guarantee that attempting heart surgery with it will be a success.

War has moved into the 21st century. Attitudes about military capabilities often seem to be stuck in the 20th.

186 Digital Display  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 1:29:18pm

re: #181 engineer dog

anybody who thinks that fighting iran would be easy is a moron

I know if it's Navy against Navy they have no chance.. except..Don't they have have Chinese Silkworm missiles? That can't be good

187 kirkspencer  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 1:30:31pm

re: #181 engineer dog

anybody who thinks that fighting iran would be easy is a moron

At least for me, we're talking two different animals.

The Iranian navy is surprisingly good, but the nature of naval warfare and the relative technical differences mean they're not going to be able to hold the strait closed.

Invading them becomes a completely different issue.

caveat: as long as it is a warzone, even though it's not "closed" a lot of traffic won't pass. Shipping is allowed, but there's a 'per day' insurance fee while there.

188 Killgore Trout  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 1:33:12pm

re: #181 engineer dog

anybody who thinks that fighting iran would be easy is a moron

I did a quick check of their capabilities: A breakdown of Iran's military capability, including equipment held by the Revolutionary Guards.

Seems mostly antiquated or homemade stuff.

189 engineer cat  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 1:34:30pm

re: #183 SanFranciscoZionist

I hear they have mountains.

//Sorry, you're right, but I couldn't resist.

yah, i know that cain caught a lot of shit for mentioning the mountains, but of course they would present a very serious obstacle to any invasion force, or for that matter any bombing campaign

the invasion and pacification of iraq was made easier by the large flat areas offering no place to hide and an easy highway for american tanks... where the terrain wasn't to marshy for them to roll...

and then there's the fact that the population of iran is three times the size of iraq

190 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 1:39:26pm

re: #188 Killgore Trout

I did a quick check of their capabilities: A breakdown of Iran's military capability, including equipment held by the Revolutionary Guards.

Seems mostly antiquated or homemade stuff.

The problem, Killgore, is that when it comes to anti-ship missiles what they have is decent and they have those decent missiles in large numbers. If they can throw large missile salvos, they could potentially swamp even an Arleigh Burke-class destroyer's AEGIS system.

To quote sci-fi author David Weber (this part is as true in reality as it is in fiction): "Ultimately, a missile engagement comes down to numbers: Probability Theory does not play favorites."

191 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Tears  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 1:41:16pm

re: #190 Dark_Falcon

The problem, Killgore, is that when it comes to anti-ship missiles what they have is decent and they have those decent missiles in large numbers. If they can throw large missile salvos, they could potentially swamp even an Arleigh Burke-class destroyer's AEGIS system.

To quote sci-fi author David Weber (this part is as true in reality as it is in fiction): "Ultimately, a missile engagement comes down to numbers: Probability Theory does not play favorites."

They presumably can also cause a threat to navigation by letting sea mines drift around in the area as well. Fairly low-tech, but arguably effective in getting tanker owners in considering the area too risky to sail into.

192 sagehen  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 1:41:26pm

re: #189 engineer dog

yah, i know that cain caught a lot of shit for mentioning the mountains, but of course they would present a very serious obstacle to any invasion force, or for that matter any bombing campaign

the invasion and pacification of iraq was made easier by the large flat areas offering no place to hide and an easy highway for american tanks... where the terrain wasn't to marshy for them to roll...

and then there's the fact that the population of iran is three times the size of iraq

and the fact that Iraqis didn't resist as hard as they could have; they didn't much like Saddam anyway, and they remembered that last time around we'd treated prisoners pretty well so they weren't worried about being taken... if we go after Iran, 70% of the population will fight their absolute hardest and *nobody* will be surrendering to us (the other 30% won't be helping us, they'll just stay out of the way).

193 darthstar  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 1:42:18pm

re: #188 Killgore Trout

I did a quick check of their capabilities: A breakdown of Iran's military capability, including equipment held by the Revolutionary Guards.

Seems mostly antiquated or homemade stuff.

How many American lives are you willing to gamble on what's posted in Haaretz?

194 allegro  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 1:42:41pm

I can't believe I'm seeing serious discussion about invading yet another country "preemptively." Jesus, hasn't anything been learned?

195 makeitstop  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 1:43:25pm

re: #194 allegro

I can't believe I'm seeing serious discussion about invading yet another country "preemptively." Jesus, hasn't anything been learned?

Short answer - nope.
/

196 darthstar  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 1:44:14pm

re: #194 allegro

I can't believe I'm seeing serious discussion about invading yet another country "preemptively." Jesus, hasn't anything been learned?

1. Xmas is over.
2. Geller's anti-muslim rant is bad.
3. Fantasizing about invading Iran is for patriots.

197 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Tears  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 1:46:12pm

re: #196 darthstar

1. Xmas is over.
2. Geller's anti-muslim rant is bad.
3. Fantasizing about invading Iran is for patriots.

4. A short victorious war will invigorate the economy and bring the conservative GOP back into power.

198 sattv4u2  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 1:48:05pm

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Florida Retreat ,,, Spectacular Bay Views,,, Fully Furnished,,,, All Beach Supplies Available For Renters Use,,, ((including severed leg for shark bait)))

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199 kirkspencer  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 1:48:50pm

re: #188 Killgore Trout

I did a quick check of their capabilities: A breakdown of Iran's military capability, including equipment held by the Revolutionary Guards.

Seems mostly antiquated or homemade stuff.

That "homemade" should be ringing huge alarm bells. I've rung this before, I'll do it again.

The word is "logistics". Iran, unlike most of the middle eastern nations, makes its own. What it makes is for the most part second tier gear -- compare US M-60 tanks against US M-1s to get a feel for the difference. Iran doesn't just make tanks. It makes the majority of its military materiel, with a few exceptions for specialized very large equipment.

They make their own bullets. They make their own missiles. They make their own launchers for both. Same goes for 95% of their entire military supply chain. It's not cutting edge, but it's not much over a generation behind us and they don't have to worry about someone else refusing spare parts in the crunch.

The second thing that gets missed can't be seen in materiel reports. That's training, or perhaps professionalism. The typical middle eastern nation's military is a host of prima donas fighting over turf. A pair of divisions, or even brigades, that "fight" adjacent to each other in large exercises are very unlikely to assist each other when it means glory to that other unit. Charitably, they're "warriors", not "soldiers".

Iran is different. It takes a lot of digging but you can read about the cooperation between brigades, between divisions, between corps... and even between services.

Their naval weakness is that they don't have that large an area in which to hide and they can't project enough to make it larger. They're potentially decent in littoral actions so long as their entire coastline isn't under enemy control. Thing is the US navy - fifth fleet alone - is sufficient to interdict that coastline.

200 Decatur Deb  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 1:49:39pm

re: #197 oaktree

4. A short victorious war will invigorate the economy and bring the conservative GOP back into power.

A war lasting more than a weekend brings Ron Paul to the White House.

201 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 1:50:05pm

re: #198 sattv4u2

FOR RENT

Florida Retreat ,,, Spectacular Bay Views,,, Fully Furnished,,, All Beach Supplies Available For Renters Use,,, ((including severed leg for shark bait)))

[Link: www.myfoxorlando.com...]

Any renters are going to need a bigger boat.

202 sattv4u2  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 1:51:12pm

re: #201 Dark_Falcon

Any renter are going to need a bigger boat.

I know a guy!!

Image: Robert_Shaw_as_Quint_in_the_movie_Jaws_1976.jpg

203 sattv4u2  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 1:52:19pm

If Iran does block the Straits, Maybe the President can just ask them for it back!!!

:)

//

204 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Tears  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 1:52:22pm

re: #202 sattv4u2

I know a guy!!

Image: Robert_Shaw_as_Quint_in_the_movie_Jaws_1976.jpg

I heard he disagreed with something that ate him.

(Yes I know. Quote from a different movie/book. But at least shark-related.)

205 McSpiff  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 1:53:22pm

re: #190 Dark_Falcon

The problem, Killgore, is that when it comes to anti-ship missiles what they have is decent and they have those decent missiles in large numbers. If they can throw large missile salvos, they could potentially swamp even an Arleigh Burke-class destroyer's AEGIS system.

To quote sci-fi author David Weber (this part is as true in reality as it is in fiction): "Ultimately, a missile engagement comes down to numbers: Probability Theory does not play favorites."

Can't quote sources unfortunately, but I know the USN was looking to train against an essentially upgraded Somali pirate type scenario, that is many small boats smaller (and with associated smaller radar cross section) than a Osa class, with close range, low altitude attacks. Something that the Burke class was not optimized to handle. Essentially speed boats operating as swarms in a very confined environment where traditional radar-based situational awareness would be limited, and with most ships only carrying a limited number of weapons that can successfully engage these types of targets (think CWIS-1b with the IR camera in a manual mode). Otherwise you're looking at night vision goggles and .50 cals, not an ideal solution.

The other issue is shore based hit and run attacks like we saw in Libya, although those would pose a larger threat to tankers than USN ships.

206 sattv4u2  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 1:53:32pm

re: #204 oaktree

I heard he disagreed with something that ate him.

(Yes I know. Quote from a different movie/book. But at least shark-related.)

Sometimes you have dinner

Sometimes dinner has you

Image: image52.png

207 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Tears  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 1:56:27pm

re: #205 McSpiff

Can't quote sources unfortunately, but I know the USN was looking to train against an essentially upgraded Somali pirate type scenario, that is many small boats smaller (and with associated smaller radar cross section) than a Osa class, with close range, low altitude attacks. Something that the Burke class was not optimized to handle. Essentially speed boats operating as swarms in a very confined environment where traditional radar-based situational awareness would be limited, and with most ships only carrying a limited number of weapons that can successfully engage these types of targets (think CWIS-1b with the IR camera in a manual mode). Otherwise you're looking at night vision goggles and .50 cals, not an ideal solution.

The other issue is shore based hit and run attacks like we saw in Libya, although those would pose a larger threat to tankers than USN ships.

And if the Iranian goal isn't to confront/fight the USN, but to interdict the Gulf's tanker traffic then they don't have to worry that much about overwhelming the capacity of an Arleigh Burke-class ship. (Though it would be something of a propaganda coup for them to do so.)

208 William Barnett-Lewis  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 1:56:46pm

re: #190 Dark_Falcon

To quote sci-fi author David Weber (this part is as true in reality as it is in fiction): "Ultimately, a missile engagement comes down to numbers: Probability Theory does not play favorites."

Reminds me of why I prefer Weber's fiction to Clancy. He's got some understanding of reality vs. none whatsoever. Now if he'd just get over his romantic attachment to monarchy, but that seems to be a Baen wide FAIL.

209 Decatur Deb  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 1:57:08pm

The Iranian Navy, the US Navy, and the shipowners do not decide whether tankers go through any bit of water--the insurance companies do.

210 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 1:58:19pm

re: #199 kirkspencer

That "homemade" should be ringing huge alarm bells. I've rung this before, I'll do it again.

The word is "logistics". Iran, unlike most of the middle eastern nations, makes its own. What it makes is for the most part second tier gear -- compare US M-60 tanks against US M-1s to get a feel for the difference. Iran doesn't just make tanks. It makes the majority of its military materiel, with a few exceptions for specialized very large equipment.

They make their own bullets. They make their own missiles. They make their own launchers for both. Same goes for 95% of their entire military supply chain. It's not cutting edge, but it's not much over a generation behind us and they don't have to worry about someone else refusing spare parts in the crunch.

The second thing that gets missed can't be seen in materiel reports. That's training, or perhaps professionalism. The typical middle eastern nation's military is a host of prima donas fighting over turf. A pair of divisions, or even brigades, that "fight" adjacent to each other in large exercises are very unlikely to assist each other when it means glory to that other unit. Charitably, they're "warriors", not "soldiers".

Iran is different. It takes a lot of digging but you can read about the cooperation between brigades, between divisions, between corps... and even between services.

Their naval weakness is that they don't have that large an area in which to hide and they can't project enough to make it larger. They're potentially decent in littoral actions so long as their entire coastline isn't under enemy control. Thing is the US navy - fifth fleet alone - is sufficient to interdict that coastline.

Just so, Kirk. During our anti-terrorist actions over the past decade, I have at times reflected on a line from Babylon 5, regarding a fictional nuclear terrorist attack on San Diego. Capt. John Sheridan (Bruce Boxleitner) says that the terrorist who detonated the nuke "didn't understand it, couldn't build it, but they were determined to use it." While that describes Al Qaeda's attitudes to new weapons, Iran is entirely different. They do understand and can build most of what they field, and unlike many middle eastern countries they train properly. These exercises they are running are not just for show, they actually want to know if their tactics will work and if they spot flaws they will seek to remedy them. They are able to learn, and that makes them dangerous.

211 kirkspencer  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 1:59:25pm

re the Iran mess, I'd like to raise one point of recognition.

The Iranians are talking of closing the straits if the US forces an embargo of their oil.

In other words, "You're talking about hitting us for 25% of our GDP. If you do, we'll hit back."

Now we're making this threat because of things Iran's done (though they're a bit less 'clear') but it's still not out of nowhere.

Oh - and notice it's a counterpressure move. The US is saying it'll get the world to go along. Iran's saying that if they do, Iran will make the world suffer. They're not expecting the US to back down directly. They're expecting to cut global support for the US action.

212 William Barnett-Lewis  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 2:00:18pm

re: #199 kirkspencer

Excellent analysis. It is driven by the experience with lack of spares for the F-14's as well. Long after they shouldn't have been able to fly them, by our standards, they were still able to use a number as AWACS platforms. I would not be surprised if they still could if they absolutely felt the need to.

213 sattv4u2  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 2:00:23pm

Here's the thing, kiddies

Bluster all they want, but blocking/ closing the Strait of Hormuz will NOT sit well with Irans Arab neighbors

Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Bahrain, Qatar, UAE ALL use the straits to get their oil to market

214 Bulworth  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 2:00:35pm

re: #5 elizajane

Oh no, honor killings always involve dressing as Santa and killing your son, wife, and in-laws. It's part of the holiday spirit.

According to some of the "feedback" on the Texas site, there was an identical killing a year ago, right down to the Santa costume. Christians. So that must have been an honor killing too, of course.

The John List family killings would seem closer to "honor killings" than this Santa Clause one.

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

215 Charles Johnson  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 2:01:37pm

Pamela Geller just called me "bagelboy" on Twitter.

Well. I never.

216 Decatur Deb  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 2:02:27pm

re: #215 Charles

Pamela Geller just called me "bagelboy" on Twitter.

Well. I never.

Lox of luck with that name.

217 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 2:02:39pm

re: #205 McSpiff

Can't quote sources unfortunately, but I know the USN was looking to train against an essentially upgraded Somali pirate type scenario, that is many small boats smaller (and with associated smaller radar cross section) than a Osa class, with close range, low altitude attacks. Something that the Burke class was not optimized to handle. Essentially speed boats operating as swarms in a very confined environment where traditional radar-based situational awareness would be limited, and with most ships only carrying a limited number of weapons that can successfully engage these types of targets (think CWIS-1b with the IR camera in a manual mode). Otherwise you're looking at night vision goggles and .50 cals, not an ideal solution.

The other issue is shore based hit and run attacks like we saw in Libya, although those would pose a larger threat to tankers than USN ships.

Our ships also mount M134D 7.62 Gatling guns (the model number is Army, the Navy's designation is different) and Bushmaster 25mm chain guns, in addition to the .50 cals. Our .50 cals have also seen major upgrades in their sights in the past few years. The ring type sites of WWII have been replaced by modern optics and holographic sites.

218 wrenchwench  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 2:03:04pm

re: #216 Decatur Deb

Lox of luck with that name.

It's a schmear.

219 sattv4u2  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 2:03:13pm

re: #215 Charles

Pamela Geller just called me "bagelboy" on Twitter.

Well. I never.

PAM ,,, make mine a cinnamon/ raisin,, toasted, with lots of butter and creme cheese please, ya psycho beeotch

220 McSpiff  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 2:03:25pm

re: #207 oaktree

And if the Iranian goal isn't to confront/fight the USN, but to interdict the Gulf's tanker traffic then they don't have to worry that much about overwhelming the capacity of an Arleigh Burke-class ship. (Though it would be something of a propaganda coup for them to do so.)

The thing to remember is that the Burke has a very layered defense dealing with a particular attack pattern. Its really designed for an over-the-horizon type naval warfare more typical of a potential bluewater naval conflict. When the threat originates within a mile or two, the advantages of the Aegis system quickly drop off.

221 sagehen  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 2:03:30pm

re: #208 wlewisiii

Reminds me of why I prefer Weber's fiction to Clancy. He's got some understanding of reality vs. none whatsoever. Now if he'd just get over his romantic attachment to monarchy, but that seems to be a Baen wide FAIL.

The other problem with Clancy is his obsession with showing off Every. Single. Goddam. Detail. of his research, going into 8-page digressions of procedural details that really only needed a paragraph of enough explanation to keep the plot moving along.

222 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 2:04:25pm

re: #215 Charles

Pamela Geller just called me "bagelboy" on Twitter.

Well. I never.

What the hell does that mean? I know what I would normally assume, but from Pam to you, it's rather baffling.

223 makeitstop  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 2:05:12pm

re: #215 Charles

Pamela Geller just called me "bagelboy" on Twitter.

Well. I never.

Geez, she's witty.
not enough / on all of the internets

224 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 2:05:26pm

re: #221 sagehen

The other problem with Clancy is his obsession with showing off Every. Single. Goddam. Detail. of his research, going into 8-page digressions of procedural details that really only needed a paragraph of enough explanation to keep the plot moving along.

Some of his readers really like that. My father adores books where there's a plotline sort of holding up piles of research about weapons.

225 Ben G. Hazi  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 2:05:32pm

re: #30 SanFranciscoZionist

For Pam and the gang, it's not enough that a Muslim man who kills his wife or kid, or wife and kids, gets arrested, prosecuted and sent to prison. They want him paraded around the country as an example of what creeping sharia will do to you.

Most likely by putting the offender's head on a pike and taking it on a "Creeping Sharia World Tour"...

226 sattv4u2  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 2:05:37pm

re: #222 SanFranciscoZionist

What the hell does that mean? I know what I would normally assume, but from Pam to you, it's rather baffling.

Key words ,,,


from Pam to you

Nuff said

227 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 2:06:16pm

re: #225 talon_262

Most likely by putting the offender's head on a pike and take on a "Creeping Sharia World Tour"...

This is not funny. Why am I laughing?

228 BishopX  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 2:06:27pm

re: #213 sattv4u2

Here's the thing, kiddies

Bluster all they want, but blocking/ closing the Strait of Hormuz will NOT sit well with Irans Arab neighbors

Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Bahrain, Qatar, UAE ALL use the straits to get their oil to market

Yup, the gulf won't be happy about this. On the other hand while we call Iran the Middle East, they don't think of themselves as middle eastern. They think of themselves as Persians, and the Arabs can go pound sand. And in the context of a military conflict between the US and Iran the gulf states militaries don't amount to all that much.

229 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Tears  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 2:06:46pm

re: #224 SanFranciscoZionist

Some of his readers really like that. My father adores books where there's a plotline sort of holding up piles of research about weapons.

Weber does techo-dumps as well. But his are SF-ish explanations of how a particular fictional system works.

230 Decatur Deb  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 2:07:42pm

re: #227 SanFranciscoZionist

This is not funny. Why am I laughing?

Just Tyne for a joke.

231 McSpiff  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 2:07:48pm

re: #217 Dark_Falcon

Our ships also mount M134D 7.62 Gatling guns (the model number is Army, the Navy's designation is different) and Bushmaster 25mm chain guns, in addition to the .50 cals. Our .50 cals have also seen major upgrades in their sights in the past few years. The ring type sites of WWII have been replaced by modern optics and holographic sites.

Yup, and the type of potential combat action were discussing is largely the reason for that I suspect. But at the same time, forcing the USN to rely on (even heavily upgraded) .50 cals is pretty impressive. Sure, the USN would defeat any small boat action, but it turns a turkey shoot into something requiring more man power and time, and potentially gives the Iranian a real propaganda boost (and puts fear into the markets) if it can get images of a smoldering hole in a US ship, even if its just 8 dudes in speedboats with RPGs.

232 Charles Johnson  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 2:07:52pm

Wow, you should see what's happening on Twitter right now. Pamela Geller has about 6 or 7 different accounts registered and she's just retweeting insults at me between them over and over. What a weirdo.

233 BishopX  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 2:08:14pm

re: #229 oaktree

Weber does techo-dumps as well. But his are SF-ish explanations of how a particular fictional system works.

My particular peeve is that Weber uses the same techno-dumps across multiple books in the same series. By the third time you read it your eyes start to glaze over...

234 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Tears  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 2:10:01pm

re: #228 BishopX

Yup, the gulf won't be happy about this. On the other hand, while we call Iran the Middle East, they don't think of themselves as middle eastern. They think of themselves as Persians, and the Arabs can go pound sand. And in the context of a military conflict between the US and Iran the gulf states militaries don't amount to all that much.

Well, dismantling the Iraqi military left Iran as the big bully on that particular block. Which was one reason we were so palsy-walsy with Saddam for all those years leading up to his opting to invade Kuwait.

Not to mention the previous missile and anti-tanker stuff in the Gulf back in the late 80s. You'd figure that the Iranians learned some lessons there in case there was going to be another round of that since it is essentially their backyard so to speak.

235 BishopX  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 2:10:45pm

re: #234 oaktree

How does turkey stack up in regards to Iran?

236 Charles Johnson  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 2:11:20pm

Spencer:

The guy murdered his whole family. You are making excuses for him. Who is paying you?

237 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 2:12:02pm

re: #232 Charles

Wow, you should see what's happening on Twitter right now. Pamela Geller has about 6 or 7 different accounts registered and she's just retweeting insults at me between them over and over. What a weirdo.

Look on the bright side: every minute she spends retweeting to herself is another minute she can't spend cooking up anti-Muslim OUTRAGEOUS OUTRAGE!!1 stories.

238 sattv4u2  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 2:12:13pm

re: #228 BishopX

they don't think of themselves as middle eastern. They think of themselves as Persians,

Yes,, thats why I stated their Arab neighbors,, NOT their Arab brethren

the gulf states militaries don't amount to all that much.

True, but if I were Iran the last thing I would want is for my neighbors to be sympathetic to my enemy by cutting off my neighbors lifeline ($$$$$)

239 kirkspencer  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 2:12:17pm

re: #233 BishopX

My particular peeve is that Weber uses the same techno-dumps across multiple books in the same series. By the third time you read it your eyes start to glaze over...

It's not just the technodumps. It's the politidumps and the cartodumps and the ...

Actually, that's bit unfair. He doesn't make the classic mistake of assuming readers have already read the appropriate dump, and that's good. His problem (my taste) is that his dumps are long-winded. The primary difference between Clancy and Weber's respective dumps is that a large majority of Weber's dumps provide context for the plot. Yes, they're huge chekov guns, but at least they're checkov's guns and not just scenery.

240 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 2:12:55pm

re: #236 Charles

Spencer:

No one's making excuses. Guy's a killer.

We don't agree that it was because he's a Muslim.

241 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Tears  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 2:13:06pm

re: #233 BishopX

My particular peeve is that Weber uses the same techno-dumps across multiple books in the same series. By the third time you read it your eyes start to glaze over...

Which, in my opinion is poor writing. I'm smart enough to pick up a bit on how the pieces fit if the information is fed in piecemeal via multiple discussions when the data makes sense within the context of what the characters are discussing. (See Bujold, Lois McMaster.)

Then again I think Bujold's prose is pretty darn readable regardless compared to Weber's.

242 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 2:13:26pm

re: #236 Charles

Spencer:

That man is just lying. What drives him to such hate?

243 BishopX  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 2:13:35pm

re: #239 kirkspencer

Now if he would just get out of the habit of cutting and pasting...

244 Charles Johnson  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 2:14:09pm

Another one from the Poison Dwarf:

Your new masters are so proud. If it were anything but halal, you & evryone would be calling for truth in labeling

245 jaunte  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 2:14:18pm

re: #236 Charles

You are making excuses for him.

????

246 The Questionable Timing of a Flea  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 2:14:27pm

re: #232 Charles

Wow, you should see what's happening on Twitter right now. Pamela Geller has about 6 or 7 different accounts registered and she's just retweeting insults at me between them over and over. What a weirdo.

"Mean girl" high school bully epistemology: the loudest volume with the broadest broadcast range equals truth.

247 sattv4u2  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 2:14:36pm

re: #243 BishopX

Now if he would just get out of the habit of cutting and pasting...

Yeah,, I hate people who have the habit of cutting and pasting.the habit of cutting and pasting.the habit of cutting and pasting.the habit of cutting and pasting.

248 BishopX  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 2:15:45pm

re: #247 sattv4u2

Yeah,, I hate people who have the habit of cutting and pasting.the habit of cutting and pasting.the habit of cutting and pasting.the habit of cutting and pasting.

Yeah,, I hate people who have the habit of cutting and pasting.the habit of cutting and pasting.the habit of cutting and pasting.the habit of cutting and pasting.

Yeah,, I hate people who have the habit of cutting and pasting.the habit of cutting and pasting.the habit of cutting and pasting.the habit of cutting and pasting.

but it's so simple! just a coupla clicks!

249 RadicalModerate  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 2:15:46pm

Apparently, the anti-Jihad crowd didn't do even the most basic research on this story. There's a ton of background on both the shooter, as well as the family itself on most of Dallas' television station websites.
Just a few tidbits:

Friends mourn the loss of two families in Christmas shooting

“We had no idea it was going to be the last time we saw them,” said Rafik Toumani through tears the day after the killing.

He and his family had been among dozens at the Christmas Eve party and had known the family for more than 30 years.

“Instead of a Christmas party it was a goodbye party," he said.

The families were well known in North Texas’ Iranian community. The Zarei’s owned the Cedar Canyon Dude Ranch in Lancaster, which they ran as an event center, friends say. Their daughter, Sahra, handled marketing for the company and was studying pre-med at the University of Texas at Arlington.

“She was the first friend I made here,” said Sahra’s best friend, Neda Hosseiny, 22. “She’s gone.”

She says the Zarei family loved to volunteer, and would often greet returning U.S. soldiers at D/FW International Airport.

“They loved to do that,” Hosseiny said. “They would make the [welcome] signs.”

Alleged gunman in Grapevine murders-suicide had past with police

Police said they still don't have a motive for the killings, but said the gunman does have a history with police. Detectives aren't saying in what way, but said they are now working with other police departments as they continue to investigate the city's deadliest murder case ever.

Family friends said the Yazdanpanahs separated in March and Fatemeh and her two children moved into a Grapevine apartment. Court records showed Aziz was still living in the family's Colleyville home nearby, which had been foreclosed on last year. Court records also show Aziz had filed for bankruptcy.

250 Charles Johnson  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 2:16:16pm

Geller's bagelboy tweet:

Not to worry bike/bagelboy SIOA is working up legislation that all halal meat must be be labeled

Saving America from the imminent threat of stealth jihad food products.

251 jaunte  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 2:16:51pm

What on earth is Bagelboy supposed to mean?

252 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Tears  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 2:17:44pm

re: #235 BishopX

How does turkey stack up in regards to Iran?

My personal suspicion is that Turkey and Iran to a degree have a lot more in common than in being in opposition. Turkey wants to bully the Eastern Med right now I think. They both have issues with Kurdish separatist movements in their hinterlands. etc. etc. A weak Iraq plays to both of them - though that does leave the Kurds a middle ground to hide in.

I presume in terms of military strength they might match up closely. Professional, relatively well-trained forces. A limited naval capability, but one that could cause fits in local waters. And forces that wouldn't be able to stand up to a committed first-class power, but also won't be some sort of pushover whose government would immediately collapse.

253 sattv4u2  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 2:17:48pm

k Kiddies

Chicken Marsala doesn't make itself, so if the Satty family wants dinner tonight, I best get to the kitchen!

254 Bulworth  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 2:17:59pm

Also, too: Bikeboy.

Just devastating. /

255 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 2:18:28pm

re: #251 jaunte

What on earth is Bagelboy supposed to mean?

It's normally used as a racial insult toward Jews. Which is why I'm utterly baffled here.

256 Ben G. Hazi  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 2:19:02pm

re: #112 Charles

I'm as opposed to religious extremism of all kinds as I've ever been. But the problem today is that criticism of Islam has been completely dominated by the loudest, most irrational bigots, and I want absolutely nothing to do with them. In fact, I think it's as important to debunk the garbage they're spewing as it is to criticize any religion.

Damn straight.

257 jaunte  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 2:19:11pm

re: #255 SanFranciscoZionist

All right, tasty, torus-shaped bread product guy, we've got you now!

258 BishopX  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 2:19:45pm

re: #252 oaktree

thanks, Turkey is kinda a black hole for me.

259 William Barnett-Lewis  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 2:20:16pm

re: #241 oaktree

Which, in my opinion is poor writing. I'm smart enough to pick up a bit on how the pieces fit if the information is fed in piecemeal via multiple discussions when the data makes sense within the context of what the characters are discussing. (See Bujold, Lois McMaster.)

Then again I think Bujold's prose is pretty darn readable regardless compared to Weber's.

Oh, she's the best author of them all at Baen, by far. I was only comparing Weber & Clancy. That said, the ending of Cryoburn was exquisitely handled.

260 sattv4u2  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 2:20:28pm

re: #255 SanFranciscoZionist

It's normally used as a racial insult toward Jews. Which is why I'm utterly baffled here.

Does that mean I don't get my cinnamon/raisin one!!!?!?

I's sad!!!

261 sattv4u2  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 2:20:54pm

re: #258 BishopX

thanks, Turkey is kinda black hole for me.

You've obviously cooked it WAY too long!!

262 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 2:21:15pm

re: #251 jaunte

What on earth is Bagelboy supposed to mean?

It's just the latest in a long line of dumb insults flung at Charles by stupid people trying to sound clever. All those insults ever mean is that Charles is making all the right enemies.

263 mcaton  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 2:21:17pm

Charles, you're right that these people are just bigots. Unfortunately they poison the whole discourse and obscure real concerns. Separation of church and state is a key concern of yours, because (correct me if I'm wrong) religion demands that others accept its authority up to and including killing people sometimes. It's certainly not clear in this case to what extent the killer's religion influenced him to do this, but we're being dishonest with ourselves if we try to say that every religion in the world today is equally guilty of religion's worst excesses. It's possible to observe this objectively without a subtext of "Therefore they're all sand n-words" or "Therefore they all should be converted to Christianity or killed", which is what a lot of those comments are implying or saying outright. The problem is that because there are so many of those jackasses, people get confused and think that ANY criticism of Islam comes from the same place. I would hope you of all people would be clear on that.

The immigration discussion is similar. We have a seriously screwed up immigration system, and local governments putting pressure on the Feds to fix it is not a bad thing. Unfortunately most of the people who get excited about this issue are really just racist yahoos with an axe to grind against Latinos, rather than being concerned with the impact of ineffective or inconsistent policy on economics.

264 jaunte  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 2:21:48pm

Felafelfellow!

265 kirkspencer  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 2:22:25pm

re: #259 wlewisiii

Oh, she's the best author of them all at Baen, by far. I was only comparing Weber & Clancy. That said, the ending of Cryoburn was exquisitely handled.

Not just of Baen. The more I read, the more I try to write something, the more in awe of her skills I become. I truly believe that if she were writing "mainstream" instead of genre novels she'd be one of the more recognized authors around.

Of course I think similarly of McKillip. I must be biased in some way.

266 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Tears  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 2:23:38pm

re: #259 wlewisiii

Oh, she's the best author of them all at Baen, by far. I was only comparing Weber & Clancy. That said, the ending of Cryoburn was exquisitely handled.

I lent _Cryoburn_ to my brother over the holiday. He read it straight through in under 36 hours real time. Which basically means it got evening and freetime reading priority.
:)

267 sattv4u2  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 2:24:07pm

re: #263 mcaton

religion demands that others accept its authority up to and including killing people sometimes

Huh???

268 Sol Berdinowitz  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 2:24:10pm

Own up now, Charles: are you now, or have you ever been circumcised?

269 McSpiff  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 2:24:13pm

re: #262 Dark_Falcon

It's just the latest in a long line of dumb insults flung at Charles by stupid people trying to sound clever. All those insults ever mean is that Charles is making all the right enemies.

The only time I've heard 'bagel' used in an insult, it was against someone for being Jewish. Kind of ironic, or something. Maybe just stupid.

270 Bubblehead II  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 2:25:43pm

re: #236 Charles

Spencer:

The guy murdered his whole family. You are making excuses for him. Who is paying you?

WTF? This is defending the Killer?

re: #63 researchok

Uh, this guy committed suicide after the mass murder. Don't you think that indicates he knew what he did was "wrong and inexcusable?"

271 sattv4u2  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 2:26:51pm

re: #268 ralphieboy

Own up now, Charles: are you now, or have you ever been circumcised?

Short answer, please!

272 William Barnett-Lewis  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 2:27:10pm

re: #265 kirkspencer

Not just of Baen. The more I read, the more I try to write something, the more in awe of her skills I become. I truly believe that if she were writing "mainstream" instead of genre novels she'd be one of the more recognized authors around.

Of course I think similarly of McKillip. I must be biased in some way.

"Count Vorkosigan, sir?"

273 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Tears  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 2:28:16pm

re: #258 BishopX

thanks, Turkey is kinda a black hole for me.

You might want to take my assessment with a grain of salt. It's off the top of my head and not heavily researched and necessarily up to date. But I think the demographics are similiar, Turkey has been doing naval exercises in the Eastern Med to the annoyance of Cyprus and Israel, they do have a Kurdish minority issues, and they also need to have sufficient naval and military presence to defend and control the Bosporus. And as a NATO member they would be decently trained and somewhat up to date to be ready to oppose the former-USSR to at least a small degree since they do share some common border.

274 Ben G. Hazi  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 2:32:40pm

re: #133 Gus 802

Death Penalty For Gays: Ron Paul Courts The Religious Fringe In Iowa

“Difficulty in implementing Biblical law does not make non-Biblical penology just,” [Kayser] argued. “But as we have seen, while many homosexuals would be executed, the threat of capital punishment can be restorative. Biblical law would recognize as a matter of justice that even if this law could be enforced today, homosexuals could not be prosecuted for something that was done before.”

Whooooo....that's fucking industrial-strength batshit insanity right there.

275 Randall Gross  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 2:33:03pm

Spencer & company are just freaking sick in the head with hate.

276 Ben G. Hazi  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 2:33:23pm

re: #151 Charles

Robert Spencer tweets:

My reply:

ZING! POW!

277 Gus  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 2:35:43pm

re: #250 Charles

Geller's bagelboy tweet:

Saving America from the imminent threat of stealth jihad food products.

Those two are deranged and obsessed beyond belief. How can anyone live that way? Day in and day out it's all about their hatred of Muslims from the moment they wake-up to the moment they go to bed.

278 Lidane  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 2:36:19pm

re: #73 researchok

There may have been an element of defending 'honor' but that was not what drove him.

I'm pretty sure the impending divorce, failed business, foreclosed house, and bankruptcy filing did FAR more to motivate this guy than any "honor" ever could have.

Just a hunch.

279 Gus  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 2:36:35pm

re: #274 talon_262

Whooo...that's fucking industrial-strength batshit insanity right there.

You think it will come up? Considering the media scrutiny that other clerical endorsements have created. This one takes the cake.

280 Ben G. Hazi  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 2:36:57pm

re: #176 sagehen

And we'd never get laid again.

Y'all have machinery, we have Rosie Palms and Fleshlights.

Don't get me started on the freaks who buy Real Dolls...

281 wrenchwench  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 2:37:39pm

re: #263 mcaton

The immigration discussion is similar. We have a seriously screwed up immigration system, and local governments putting pressure on the Feds to fix it is not a bad thing. Unfortunately most of the people who get excited about this issue are really just racist yahoos with an axe to grind against Latinos, rather than being concerned with the impact of ineffective or inconsistent policy on economics.

Local governments are not putting pressure on the Feds to fix the screwed up immigration system. They are putting pressure on the Feds to "secure the border", which they never define. You're right about the racist yahoos.

282 Lidane  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 2:40:19pm

re: #232 Charles

Wow, you should see what's happening on Twitter right now. Pamela Geller has about 6 or 7 different accounts registered and she's just retweeting insults at me between them over and over. What a weirdo.

She must be out of vodka again.

283 kirkspencer  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 2:41:42pm

re: #281 wrenchwench

Local governments are not putting pressure on the Feds to fix the screwed up immigration system. They are putting pressure on the Feds to "secure the border", which they never define. You're right about the racist yahoos.

true dat.

I'm a bit of a radical on this. I say we should make immigration primarily open instead of primarily closed. That is we still do the checks for criminal background and such. But if they pass those, they're given their visa and tax forms and allowed in.

Yes, I know the fear. "They'd come in and live high on the hog on our handouts, our social services." Bah. Look at the evidence instead of the fears. Immigrants work.

284 Bubblehead II  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 2:45:33pm

re: #277 Gus 802

Those two are deranged and obsessed beyond belief. How can anyone live that way? Day in and day out it's all about their hatred of Muslims from the moment they wake-up to the moment they go to bed.

White Nationalists/Supremacists do it all the time.

285 Lidane  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 2:46:42pm

re: #242 Dark_Falcon

That man is just lying. What drives him to such hate?

Idiocy and paranoia. Also, the need to make a quick buck, since Spencer profits off the ignorance of the anti-Islam bigots.

286 Gus  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 2:47:13pm

re: #284 Bubblehead II

White Nationalists/Supremacists do it all the time.

Madness.

287 Bubblehead II  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 2:49:57pm

re: #286 Gus 802

Yep. One that I am thankful for not falling into.

288 albusteve  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 2:50:37pm

re: #128 NJDhockeyfan

Iran navy chief says closing Gulf ‘really easy’

Targets...and much of their own oil goes out the straights...hence if the west embagos their oil, they might attempt it

289 Lidane  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 2:52:57pm

Hey, Charles -- adding to your previous post about Rick Perry:

Perry Pledges To Openly Defy A Supreme Court Decision Striking Down An Anti-Choice ‘Personhood’ Law

290 Randall Gross  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 2:53:14pm

How would Spencer feel if there were religious bigots out there ascribing every familial crime of passion or lunatic murderer in Catholic families to honor killing? It's not just an Islamic problem after all. Historically even Spencer's ancestors practiced "honor Killing" and "ninja bagging" of women. Honor Killing predates Islam, and it's practiced in modern times by fundamentalist hindus, sikhs, and other religions in the sub continent of Asia as well as Africa, not just extremist Muslims.

Most true honor killings result from marrying or courting outside the tribe or Patriarchal arrangements, not due to religion.

291 wrenchwench  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 2:54:10pm

re: #283 kirkspencer

true dat.

I'm a bit of a radical on this. I say we should make immigration primarily open instead of primarily closed. That is we still do the checks for criminal background and such. But if they pass those, they're given their visa and tax forms and allowed in.

Yes, I know the fear. "They'd come in and live high on the hog on our handouts, our social services." Bah. Look at the evidence instead of the fears. Immigrants work.

Sounds very reasonable and not at all radical to me.

292 Ben G. Hazi  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 2:55:59pm

re: #221 sagehen

The other problem with Clancy is his obsession with showing off Every. Single. Goddam. Detail. of his research, going into 8-page digressions of procedural details that really only needed a paragraph of enough explanation to keep the plot moving along.

Say what you may, but the man is thorough...I love watching John Gresham (one of Clancy's researchers and a good writer in his own right, from what I've heard) do the rounds on the Military Channel shows. Sometimes, you don't have to know everything, you just need to know who and where to ask.

293 RadicalModerate  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 2:58:05pm

Question for the legal types out there:
Is this legal?

Va. GOP to require loyalty oath in presidential primary

RICHMOND, Va. --

At the request of the Virginia Republican Party, the State Board of Elections voted 3-0 today to close the March 6 presidential primary and require a loyalty oath for participation.

That means anyone who wants to vote must sign a form at the polling place pledging to support the eventual Republican nominee for president. Anyone who refuses to sign the pledge will be barred from voting.

294 Ben G. Hazi  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 2:58:12pm

re: #279 Gus 802

You think it will come up? Considering the media scrutiny that other clerical endorsements have created. This one takes the cake.

G-d, I hope so, because it needs to.

295 Bubblehead II  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 2:58:36pm

re: #288 albusteve

Actually it is a two way street. Iran can close the Straits to outgoing traffic, but in doing so it also risks having all incoming shipping to Iran blocked as well. Since they get most of their refined petroleum products (gasoline) as well as other imports from incoming ships, it a bit like cutting your nose off to spite your face don't you think?

296 albusteve  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 2:59:50pm

re: #293 RadicalModerate

Question for the legal types out there:
Is this legal?

Va. GOP to require loyalty oath in presidential primary

I'd love to volunteer to find out

297 kirkspencer  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 2:59:53pm

re: #291 wrenchwench

Sounds very reasonable and not at all radical to me.

glad you think so. The current method - which is what's been more-or-less in place for most of the past century and a half - is a lottery. You go through the various vettings. Then you enter a lottery. Annually we allow x number of visas, split up between various nations. (So, to make up a number, if we allow 100,000 visas we might allow 1,000 danes and 200 Mexicans. if a nation's numbers aren't taken, the visas are left fallow.) Add, of course, the complexities from temporary visas -- just here to work, to vacation, to go to school. Again, as long as they're paying taxes I actually don't have that much problem with the work visa.

But then I'm a keynesian. I think the churn of a lot of people pumping money will generate more jobs.

298 Lidane  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 2:59:58pm

re: #293 RadicalModerate

Question for the legal types out there:
Is this legal?

Va. GOP to require loyalty oath in presidential primary

No. It's not. I'm not even a lawyer and I know that much.

299 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Tears  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 3:00:20pm

re: #293 RadicalModerate

Question for the legal types out there:
Is this legal?

Va. GOP to require loyalty oath in presidential primary

I would suspect that it wouldn't hold up since it in effect makes a mockery of the secret ballot.

300 Lidane  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 3:01:22pm

re: #296 albusteve

I'd love to volunteer to find out

Loyalty oaths in a primary are meaningless because they're unenforceable in the general election, due to general election ballots being anonymous.

302 kirkspencer  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 3:01:44pm

re: #295 Bubblehead II

Actually it is a two way street. Iran can close the Straits to outgoing traffic, but in doing so it also risks having all incoming shipping to Iran blocked as well. Since they get most of their refined petroleum products (gasoline) as well as other imports from incoming ships, it a bit like cutting your nose off to spite your face don't you think?

Which is why I think it important to note it's not in a vacuum. The threat to close is a case of "if we can't get our stuff, why should we let anyone else get theirs?"

It's forcing them onto desperate ground.

304 albusteve  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 3:02:32pm

re: #295 Bubblehead II

Actually it is a two way street. Iran can close the Straits to outgoing traffic, but in doing so it also risks having all incoming shipping to Iran blocked as well. Since they get most of their refined petroleum products (gasoline) as well as other imports from incoming ships, it a bit like cutting your nose off to spite your face don't you think?

Yes, that's pretty much what I said...if their own oil etc is embargoed, they'd have little to lose

305 Bubblehead II  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 3:02:41pm

re: #293 RadicalModerate

Not a legal type person, but on the face of it, I would have to say no. Besides, how would they enforce it? Voting is by secret ballot in the general election.

306 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Tears  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 3:03:55pm

re: #301 Killgore Trout

Lefties are outraged!
Maddow: Congress just voted to BAN diplomacy between Iran & USA and no one seemed to notice

Strange. I thought foreign diplomacy was the job of the Executive Branch (with the caveat that the Senate gets to approve treaties.) I guess they wanted something back to make up for all those legislative bills Obama is making.
///

307 Ben G. Hazi  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 3:04:12pm

re: #293 RadicalModerate

Question for the legal types out there:
Is this legal?

Va. GOP to require loyalty oath in presidential primary

That sounds very unconstitutional...the VA GOP and the state board of elections knows it'll most likely take past next year's elections to wind through the courts and end up at the SCOTUS.

Hence, it will have the effects that they desire and VA taxpayers will get screwed two ways: having to deal with this very bad, partisan law and having to pay for the legal challenges to it.

308 albusteve  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 3:04:27pm

re: #300 Lidane

Loyalty oaths in a primary are meaningless because they're unenforceable in the general election, due to general election ballots being anonymous.

I'd just do it to raise hell...I refuse to be toyed with like that

309 sattv4u2  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 3:05:27pm

re: #308 albusteve

I'd just do it to raise hell...I refuse to be toyed with like that

Like that?

Then, how DO you prefer to be toyed with!?!?
/

310 kirkspencer  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 3:05:33pm

re: #301 Killgore Trout

Lefties are outraged!
Maddow: Congress just voted to BAN diplomacy between Iran & USA and no one seemed to notice

She (the KOS author, not Maddow) has a bit of a point. We're having escalating tensions that could result in bad things and that'll probably take talking to resolve. So the house says, "No, you can't talk to them."

On the other hand, the House isn't all there is to Congress. The house has a habit of passing outrageous bills that die in the Senate. Further, that same bill has to be signed by the president to be a law.

I'm going to guess it dies in the Senate. There'll be much yelling of "traitors" from the right, but what's new about that?

311 engineer cat  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 3:05:54pm

re: #303 Gus 802

Ian Anderson + Cady Coleman flute duet in space

[Video]

i play the flute and both of them have a nice rich tone that i envy

312 Gus  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 3:06:06pm

re: #301 Killgore Trout

Lefties are outraged!
Maddow: Congress just voted to BAN diplomacy between Iran & USA and no one seemed to notice

Bleh. False characterization and fear mongering. It was to pass the Iran sanctions and this is what Obama wanted. The vote were 410-11 and 418-2. It hasn't even made it through the Senate. And it won't die in the Senate. This is going through.

313 albusteve  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 3:06:12pm

re: #309 sattv4u2

Like that?

Then, how DO you prefer to be toyed with!?!?
/

Ask your wife

314 Lidane  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 3:06:39pm

re: #308 albusteve

I'd just do it to raise hell...I refuse to be toyed with like that

FWIW, even the Freepers hate the VA GOP loyalty oath. It would mean that they'd have to pledge to vote for Romney or whoever the eventual nominee is instead of their preferred wingnut of choice.

Besides, it's an unenforceable promise of future support in an election that has secret ballots. There's no possible way it would stand up in court, I think.

315 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Tears  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 3:07:30pm

re: #308 albusteve

I'd just do it to raise hell...I refuse to be toyed with like that

Along the lines of -

Q: Did you sign the party loyalty oath?
S: Yes
Q: Do you intend of vote for Candidate **** as you promised in the oath?
S: None of your damn business

--
Not to mention how do you legislate the election workers in a general election enforcing single party-only legislated loyalty oaths? That's silly unto itself, and also imposes one of the parties right into the voting area, which is dangerous.

316 sattv4u2  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 3:07:51pm

re: #313 albusteve

Ask your wife

I did

She said it was the best 90 seconds of her life

(70 of which was foreplay!!)

317 Ben G. Hazi  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 3:10:09pm

re: #316 sattv4u2

I did

She said it was the best 90 seconds of her life

(70 of which was foreplay!!)

ZING! POW!

318 Killgore Trout  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 3:10:56pm

re: #306 oaktree

Strange. I thought foreign diplomacy was the job of the Executive Branch (with the caveat that the Senate gets to approve treaties.) I guess they wanted something back to make up for all those legislative bills Obama is making.
///

Maddow's claim about diplomacy doesn't pass the sniff test. Here's the text of the bill (PDF)
It does mention diplomacy, mostly that Iran is using its diplomats to further their nuclear program (no surprise). We don't have diplomatic relations with Iran and haven't for quite some time. I don't see anything in the bill that outlaws diplomacy or negotiations.

319 Gus  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 3:10:59pm

"Another senseless act of bi-partisanship!"

//Too funny.

320 Obdicut  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 3:11:47pm

Family Memo RE: Holiday Sullenness, Ingratitude

To whom it may concern,

As the primary executive of this family, it is my duty to keep abreast of the morale of its constituents (my wife and son). Therefore, the attitude of sullenness and subtle ingratitude immediately following the Christmas holiday did not escape my attention. I am not upset by your attitudes; your emotions are your own, and you are free to exercise them as you wish. However, as a conscientious father and husband, I must strive to address any lingering family concerns to assure a more satisfactory and cheerful Christmas next year.

Based on certain snide remarks and overheard comments, I conclude that some dissatisfaction stemmed from my choice of gifts, and perhaps my reaction to the gifts I received. First, I would like to make clear that my gifts were given with all due warmth and affection. Second, though my reactions to your gifts may have been sober and restrained, I appreciate that you gave them to me with the intent to satisfy me.

To clear up any remaining dissatisfaction with my execution of the Christmas holiday, allow me to compile all available data and provide an objective assessment of all gifts given/received.

321 Bubblehead II  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 3:12:20pm

re: #304 albusteve

re: #302 kirkspencer

Correct me if I am wrong, but from what I understand, the proposed embargo doesn't prevent them from shipping it out if they have a buyer who will purchase it, it only asks other Countries not to buy it.

The Iranians on the other hand are saying if you get this embargo passed, nothing is going in/out through the Straights unless we allow it. Correct?

322 Killgore Trout  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 3:12:45pm

re: #312 Gus 802

Bleh. False characterization and fear mongering. It was to pass the Iran sanctions and this is what Obama wanted. The vote were 410-11 and 418-2. It hasn't even made it through the Senate. And it won't die in the Senate. This is going through.

The Koskidz posted the list of no votes....

Nay MI-3 Amash, Justin [R]
Nay OR-3 Blumenauer, Earl [D]
Nay TN-2 Duncan, John [R]
Nay MN-5 Ellison, Keith [D]
Nay OH-10 Kucinich, Dennis [D]
Nay CA-9 Lee, Barbara [D]
Nay WA-7 McDermott, James [D]
Nay VA-8 Moran, James [D]
Nay MA-1 Olver, John [D]
Nay CA-13 Stark, Fortney [D]
Nay CA-6 Woolsey, Lynn [D]

I guess Ron Paul was busy that day.

323 kirkspencer  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 3:15:42pm

re: #312 Gus 802

Bleh. False characterization and fear mongering. It was to pass the Iran sanctions and this is what Obama wanted. The vote were 410-11 and 418-2. It hasn't even made it through the Senate. And it won't die in the Senate. This is going through.

Mostly. But they did add section 601(c).

Restriction on Contact- No person employed with the United States Government may contact in an official or unofficial capacity any person that--
(1) is an agent, instrumentality, or official of, is affiliated with, or is serving as a representative of the Government of Iran; and
(2) presents a threat to the United States or is affiliated with terrorist organizations.

That clause may get cut by the Senate, along with a couple of other equally rabid extremist clauses.

324 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Tears  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 3:17:04pm

re: #323 kirkspencer

Mostly. But they did add section 601(c).


That clause may get cut by the Senate, along with a couple of other equally rabid extremist clauses.

Heh. Doesn't that clause make some of the standard spying techniques illegal for the CIA to conduct?

325 albusteve  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 3:17:17pm

re: #321 Bubblehead II

re: #302 kirkspencer

Correct me if I am wrong, but from what I understand, the proposed embargo doesn't prevent them from shipping it out if they have a buyer who will purchase it, it only asks other Countries not to buy it.

The Iranians on the other hand are saying if you get this embargo passed, nothing is going in/out through the Straights unless we allow it. Correct?

I believe closing the straights without UN permission is an act of war...whatever language they use doesn't really matter...doing so would be very stupid...Iran is certainly no match against the USN...they would be sliced and diced appropriately

326 Gus  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 3:19:16pm

re: #323 kirkspencer

Mostly. But they did add section 601(c).

That clause may get cut by the Senate, along with a couple of other equally rabid extremist clauses.

Actually this is the complete section:

TITLE VI--GENERAL PROVISIONS

SEC. 601. DENIAL OF VISAS FOR CERTAIN PERSONS OF THE GOVERNMENT OF IRAN.

(a) In General- Except as necessary to meet United States obligations under the Agreement between the United Nations and the United States of America regarding the Headquarters of the United Nations, signed June 26, 1947, and entered into force November 21, 1947, and other applicable international treaty obligations, the Secretary of State shall deny a visa to, and the Secretary of Homeland Security shall deny admission into the United States to, a person of the Government of Iran pursuant to section 6(j)(1)(A) of the Export Administration Act of 1979 (as in effect pursuant to the International Emergency Economic Powers Act; 50 U.S.C. 1701 et seq.), section 40(d) of the Arms Export Control Act (22 U.S.C. 2780(d)), and section 620A of the Foreign Assistance Act of 1961 (22 U.S.C. 2371), including a person who is a senior official of the Government of Iran who is specified in the list under section 205(a)(1), if the Secretary determines that such person--

(1) is an agent, instrumentality, or official of, is affiliated with, or is serving as a representative of the Government of Iran; and

(2) presents a threat to the United States or is affiliated with terrorist organizations.

(b) Restriction on Movement- The Secretary of State shall restrict in Washington, D.C., and at the United Nations in New York City, the travel to only within a 25-mile radius of Washington, D.C., or the United Nations headquarters building, respectively, of any person identified in subsection (a).

(c) Restriction on Contact- No person employed with the United States Government may contact in an official or unofficial capacity any person that--

(1) is an agent, instrumentality, or official of, is affiliated with, or is serving as a representative of the Government of Iran; and

(2) presents a threat to the United States or is affiliated with terrorist organizations.

(d) Waiver- The President may waive the requirements of subsection (c) if the President determines and so reports to the appropriate congressional committees 15 days prior to the exercise of waiver authority that failure to exercise such waiver authority would pose an unusual and extraordinary threat to the vital national security interests of the United States.

327 Bubblehead II  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 3:20:49pm

bbib. Beer run.

328 albusteve  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 3:20:52pm

I'm bivouacked in Elk City OK...not an elk within 400 mi in any direction...bet me

329 Gus  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 3:21:55pm

And notice...

(1) is an agent, instrumentality, or official of, is affiliated with, or is serving as a representative of the Government of Iran; and

(2) presents a threat to the United States or is affiliated with terrorist organizations.

That would mean both requirements would have to be fulfilled or "is an agent, instrumentality, or official of, is affiliated with, or is serving as a representative of the Government of Iran AND presents a threat to the United States or is affiliated with terrorist organizations."

330 kirkspencer  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 3:21:59pm

re: #321 Bubblehead II

re: #302 kirkspencer

Correct me if I am wrong, but from what I understand, the proposed embargo doesn't prevent them from shipping it out if they have a buyer who will purchase it, it only asks other Countries not to buy it.

The Iranians on the other hand are saying if you get this embargo passed, nothing is going in/out through the Straights unless we allow it. Correct?

Embargo isn't quite the right word. More properly it's "sanctions".

What the bill says (in simple, massively paraphrased) is that the US not only deal with Iran but will penalize anyone who deals with Iran. The penalties can go up to total economic denial - no trade, no license, etc. The big stick in there is that the US will shut down any credit or bank account as well. Not take the money, just stop it from being available.

So while your "what the US wants" is technically correct it, "asking" others not to partake is understating the case. We are still The Bank of the world, and we're still the Number One Consumer of the world. Telling other nations that if they play with Iran they can't play with us is a big deal.

331 Killgore Trout  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 3:22:21pm

re: #323 kirkspencer

Mostly. But they did add section 601(c).

That clause may get cut by the Senate, along with a couple of other equally rabid extremist clauses.

Here's the full text....

(c) Restriction on Contact- No person employed with the United States Government may contact in an official or unofficial capacity any person that--
(1) is an agent, instrumentality, or official of, is affiliated with, or is serving as a representative of the Government of Iran; and
(2) presents a threat to the United States or is affiliated with terrorist organizations.
(d) Waiver- The President may waive the requirements of subsection (c) if the President determines and so reports to the appropriate congressional committees 15 days prior to the exercise of waiver authority that failure to exercise such waiver authority would pose an unusual and extraordinary threat to the vital national security interests of the United States.

The "and" qualifiier is important. They're talking about Iranian government officials that are part of designated terrorist organizations.
Also note the "waiver".
I like Maddow but I'm starting to suspect that her political views overwhelm her sense of honesty. I don't think she's being honest here.

332 Gus  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 3:22:51pm

re: #331 Killgore Trout

Here's the full text...

The "and" qualifiier is important. They're talking about Iranian government officials that are part of designated terrorist organizations.
Also note the "waiver".
I like Maddow but I'm starting to suspect that her political views overwhelm her sense of honesty. I don't think she's being honest here.

Exactly. See #329.

333 Killgore Trout  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 3:23:58pm

re: #329 Gus 802

And notice...

That would mean both requirements would have to be fulfilled or "is an agent, instrumentality, or official of, is affiliated with, or is serving as a representative of the Government of Iran AND presents a threat to the United States or is affiliated with terrorist organizations."

I caught that too. There's a list of designated organizations further down in the document.

334 kirkspencer  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 3:24:01pm

re: #329 Gus 802

And notice...

That would mean both requirements would have to be fulfilled or "is an agent, instrumentality, or official of, is affiliated with, or is serving as a representative of the Government of Iran AND presents a threat to the United States or is affiliated with terrorist organizations."

Except according to the US, the republican guard is a terrorist organization. Since the RG is part of the official Iranian structure it means the Iranian government is "affiliated with terrorist organizations". That's even more direct than the various allegations of Iranian support of organizations such as hezbollah.

335 Gus  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 3:24:21pm

The White House

Office of the Press Secretary
For Immediate Release
November 21, 2011
Statement by the President on the Announcement of Additional Sanctions on Iran

Today, my Administration has taken yet another step to further isolate and penalize Iran for its refusal to live up to its international obligations regarding its nuclear program. For years, the Iranian government has failed to abide by its obligations under the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty. It has violated repeated UN Security Council resolutions, as well as its commitments to the International Atomic Energy Agency. In the face of this intransigence, the world has spoken with one voice —at the IAEA, at the UN, and in capitals - making it clear that Iranian actions jeopardize international peace and stability, and will only further isolate the Iranian regime.

Today, my Administration has taken action to impose an additional cost on Iran for its actions. New sanctions target for the first time Iran’s petrochemical sector, prohibiting the provision of goods, services, and technology to this sector and authorizing penalties against any person or entity that engages in such activity. They expand energy sanctions, making it more difficult for Iran to operate, maintain, and modernize its oil and gas sector. They also designate 11 individuals and entities for their role in assisting Iran’s prohibited nuclear programs, including its enrichment and heavy water programs. And today we have taken the next significant step to escalate the pressure by acting under Section 311 of the USA PATRIOT Act, identifying for the first time, the entire Iranian banking sector – including the Central Bank of Iran – as a threat to governments or financial institutions that do business with Iranian banks. We are joined in this action by the United Kingdom and Canada, who have also acted to cut off Iran from their financial systems today. I welcome these steps and encourage all of our partners to do the same.

As President one of my highest national security priorities is to prevent the spread of nuclear weapons, including to the Iranian government. Since taking office, I have made it clear that the United States is prepared to begin a new chapter with the Islamic Republic of Iran, offering the Iranian government a clear choice. It can fulfill its international obligations and reap the benefits of greater economic and political integration with countries around the world, or it can continue to defy its responsibilities and face even more pressure and isolation. Iran has chosen the path of international isolation. As long as Iran continues down this dangerous path, the United States will continue to find ways, both in concert with our partners and through our own actions to isolate and increase the pressure upon the Iranian regime.

336 Killgore Trout  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 3:25:52pm

re: #332 Gus 802

Exactly. See #329.

Sigh. It didn't take much to debunk that one, eh? Kinda sad that all that someone needs to do is read the fucking bill to know that Maddow isn't telling the truth. I don't see her version as a reasonable interpretation. This is crap worthy of Fox News.

337 engineer cat  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 3:26:38pm

so what exactly is the point of including 601(c)? why is that in there?

338 Gus  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 3:27:03pm

re: #334 kirkspencer

Except according to the US, the republican guard is a terrorist organization. Since the RG is part of the official Iranian structure it means the Iranian government is "affiliated with terrorist organizations". That's even more direct than the various allegations of Iranian support of organizations such as hezbollah.

Well, we can sit here and write this legislation as they would in congress. Right now this looks good enough to me and it found overwhelming support in the House. Obviously there will be changes but Maddow and Kos are wrong.

339 kirkspencer  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 3:27:18pm

re: #325 albusteve

I believe closing the straights without UN permission is an act of war...whatever language they use doesn't really matter...doing so would be very stupid...Iran is certainly no match against the USN...they would be sliced and diced appropriately

To be fully honest - meaning defacto, not dejure - an act of war is any excuse a nation uses to declare war upon another nation. "You called the president a n*****r, that disrespect can only be cleansed by a regime change in your nation." (extreme, but still valid).

That said, an embargo is also a de jure act of war. So are sanctions. Quite frankly, both sides (UN and Iran) have 'overlooked' incidents that by generally recognized laws and agreements justify conflict to resolve (aka are acts of war).

340 kirkspencer  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 3:29:41pm

re: #336 Killgore Trout

Sigh. It didn't take much to debunk that one, eh? Kinda sad that all that someone needs to do is read the fucking bill to know that Maddow isn't telling the truth. I don't see her version as a reasonable interpretation. This is crap worthy of Fox News.

ummm, reality check. As I already pointed out, 601(c) does exactly that.

341 Gus  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 3:30:20pm

re: #336 Killgore Trout

Sigh. It didn't take much to debunk that one, eh? Kinda sad that all that someone needs to do is read the fucking bill to know that Maddow isn't telling the truth. I don't see her version as a reasonable interpretation. This is crap worthy of Fox News.

Yea CA-8 Pelosi, Nancy [D]

342 Obdicut  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 3:30:29pm

re: #337 engineer dog

It is a little weird. It's okay for US officials to meet with non-Iranian terrorists and enemies of the state? Why?

343 Gus  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 3:30:35pm

re: #340 kirkspencer

ummm, reality check. As I already pointed out, 601(c) does exactly that.

Not really.

344 albusteve  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 3:30:59pm

re: #339 kirkspencer

To be fully honest - meaning defacto, not dejure - an act of war is any excuse a nation uses to declare war upon another nation. "You called the president a n***r, that disrespect can only be cleansed by a regime change in your nation." (extreme, but still valid).

That said, an embargo is also a de jure act of war. So are sanctions. Quite frankly, both sides (UN and Iran) have 'overlooked' incidents that by generally recognized laws and agreements justify conflict to resolve (aka are acts of war).

It's good to have the biggest guns...when diplomacy fails, of course

345 Gus  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 3:31:07pm

re: #336 Killgore Trout

Sigh. It didn't take much to debunk that one, eh? Kinda sad that all that someone needs to do is read the fucking bill to know that Maddow isn't telling the truth. I don't see her version as a reasonable interpretation. This is crap worthy of Fox News.

Colorado
Yea CO-1 DeGette, Diana [D]
Yea CO-2 Polis, Jared [D]
Yea CO-3 Tipton, Scott [R]
Yea CO-4 Gardner, Cory [R]
Yea CO-5 Lamborn, Doug [R]
Yea CO-6 Coffman, Mike [R]
Yea CO-7 Perlmutter, Ed [D]

346 Achilles Tang  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 3:31:29pm

re: #330 kirkspencer

We are still The Bank of the world, and we're still the Number One Consumer of the world. Telling other nations that if they play with Iran they can't play with us is a big deal.

Yeah, especially to WalMart and China.//

347 Gus  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 3:33:25pm

Sanctions against Iran

Numerous nations and multinational entities impose Sanctions against Iran. Sanctions commonly bar nuclear; missile and certain military exports to Iran; investments in oil, gas and petrochemicals; exports of refined petroleum products; business dealings with the Iranian Republican Guard Corps; banking and insurance transactions, including with the Central Bank of Iran; and shipping. The United States imposed sanctions on Iran following the Islamic revolution of 1979, while more recent rounds of sanctions by the U.S. and other entities were motivated by Iran's alleged nuclear weapons program.

348 kirkspencer  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 3:33:53pm

HR1905, section 601(c)(1) says that if an Iranian meets certain technical criteria, no US government official shall be allowed to communicate with them. The government of Iran meets the technical criteria.

The president can grant a waiver, but it has to be 15 days in advance.

So how does this disagree with "we can't have diplomatic discussions with Iran if this passes."?

349 darthstar  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 3:34:00pm

Okay, took the dogs to the beach, let them run, shit, catch frisbees, swim, etc.

So, have we moved on to something more interesting than armchair justifications for invading Iran?
.
.
.
looking upthread...
.
.
.
nope...
.
,
,
I guess we're still soaping our cocks up over wars it'll take another Bush to start. Sigh...I guess our "best and brightest" won't be able to make "the ultimate sacrifice for freedom" for some time yet.

350 albusteve  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 3:35:07pm

re: #342 Obdicut

It is a little weird. It's okay for US officials to meet with non-Iranian terrorists and enemies of the state? Why?

The reality is quite different from what you read in the papers

351 darthstar  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 3:35:10pm

re: #346 Naso Tang

Yeah, especially to WalMart and China.//

WalMart...now there's an evil fucking regime that needs a good repositioning.

352 engineer cat  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 3:36:02pm

ok, we're backing iran into a corner and its declared retaliation of closing the strait of hormuz cannot be maintained against a united nations coalition

assuming that iran will try to close the strait, and that's a big if, and assuming that a coalition sends in troops to keep it open, we would be part of a military operation which would be maintained indefinitely

then what?

353 darthstar  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 3:36:02pm

re: #350 albusteve

The reality is quite different from what you read in the papers

Papers? Who needs papers when we get emails with all the information we need to know sent directly to us 24 hours a day?

354 goddamnedfrank  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 3:36:44pm

re: #329 Gus 802

And notice...

That would mean both requirements would have to be fulfilled or "is an agent, instrumentality, or official of, is affiliated with, or is serving as a representative of the Government of Iran AND presents a threat to the United States or is affiliated with terrorist organizations."

For the record in 2007 the US Senate declared the Iranian Republican Guard to be a foreign terrorist organization, so any affiliation with them could theoretically qualify.

355 darthstar  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 3:37:00pm

re: #352 engineer dog

ok, we're backing iran into a corner and its declared retaliation of closing the strait of hormuz cannot be maintained against a united nations coalition

We should close the Bering Strait in pre-emptive retaliation! That'll show those fuckers.

356 Gus  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 3:37:23pm

re: #355 darthstar

We should close the Bering Strait in pre-emptive retaliation! That'll show those fuckers.

Yes. Clearly that's what I'm arguing for.

357 albusteve  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 3:37:35pm

re: #349 darthstar

Okay, took the dogs to the beach, let them run, shit, catch frisbees, swim, etc.

So, have we moved on to something more interesting than armchair justifications for invading Iran?
.
.
.
looking upthread...
.
.
.

As for me, I've never heard anyone here at LGF suggest we invade Iran
nope...
.
,
,
I guess we're still soaping our cocks up over wars it'll take another Bush to start. Sigh...I guess our "best and brightest" won't be able to make "the ultimate sacrifice for freedom" for some time yet.

358 darthstar  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 3:37:59pm

re: #357 albusteve

Quoting me for truth?

oh, wait... I see you embedded your response. Well, go look at 134 for a sec and let me know if you still don't think anyone here has a hard-on for preempting Iran into a colossal clusterfuck.

359 albusteve  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 3:38:48pm

re: #353 darthstar

Papers? Who needs papers when we get emails with all the information we need to know sent directly to us 24 hours a day?

Read in the papers...a metaphor for common knowledge....hope that helps

360 albusteve  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 3:39:50pm

re: #358 darthstar

Quoting me for truth?

As for me, I've never heard anyone here suggest we invade Iran

361 darthstar  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 3:41:21pm

re: #359 albusteve

Read in the papers...a metaphor for common knowledge...hope that helps

Read? We've got YouTube now...nobody needs to read.

Maybe we should say "The reality is quite different from the LOLcat falling off the TV" instead of "....what we read in the papers."

362 Obdicut  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 3:42:02pm

re: #354 goddamnedfrank

For the record in 2007 the US Senate declared the Iranian Republican Guard to be a foreign terrorist organization, so any affiliation with them could theoretically qualify.

But this appears to be using the State Department's terrorism list-- ironically, the only Iranian terrorist organizations on that list are ones that want to overthrow Iran. However, Hizballah is on that list, which a lot of Iranians have contact with.

It's a very short list, actually.

[Link: www.state.gov...]

363 Killgore Trout  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 3:42:17pm

re: #352 engineer dog

ok, we're backing iran into a corner and its declared retaliation of closing the strait of hormuz cannot be maintained against a united nations coalition

assuming that iran will try to close the strait, and that's a big if, and assuming that a coalition sends in troops to keep it open, we would be part of a military operation which would be maintained indefinitely

then what?

It shows how bad they want to stick with their nuclear program. The recent rash of mysterious work accidents, losing one of our drones, etc. All sign are starting to indicate Iran may be reaching a threshold. Probably within a year we'll have to decide if we're going to let them get nukes of destroy their program.

364 darthstar  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 3:42:19pm

re: #360 albusteve

As for me, I've never heard anyone here suggest we invade Iran

Let's not forget Rick Perry thinks Tehran is a village outside Taos. If he becomes President, you're fucked.

365 Gus  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 3:42:41pm

re: #352 engineer dog

ok, we're backing iran into a corner and its declared retaliation of closing the strait of hormuz cannot be maintained against a united nations coalition

assuming that iran will try to close the strait, and that's a big if, and assuming that a coalition sends in troops to keep it open, we would be part of a military operation which would be maintained indefinitely

then what?

I'm sure that the Obama administration and the Pentagon are taking all things into consideration. I have full confidence in the president making the right choice. The strengthened sanctions will proceed once congress reconvenes. This has the full support of the White House, congress and most EU countries. The ball is in Iran's court.

366 Ben G. Hazi  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 3:42:59pm

re: #349 darthstar

Okay, took the dogs to the beach, let them run, shit, catch frisbees, swim, etc.

So, have we moved on to something more interesting than armchair justifications for invading Iran?
.
.
.
looking upthread...
.
.
.
nope...
.
,
,
I guess we're still soaping our cocks up over wars it'll take another Bush to start. Sigh...I guess our "best and brightest" won't be able to make "the ultimate sacrifice for freedom" for some time yet.

You gonna get off your high horse before you fall off it and break your neck?

Maybe I missed something, but I didn't see anything upthread calling for imminent, unjustifiable action against Iran, only to expect some action on our part if Iran tries anything hinky.

367 kirkspencer  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 3:44:38pm

re: #365 Gus 802

I'm sure that the Obama administration and the Pentagon are taking all things into consideration. I have full confidence in the president making the right choice. The strengthened sanctions will proceed once congress reconvenes. This has the full support of the White House, congress and most EU countries. The ball is in Iran's court.

I'm close to being an Obot, and I don't.

368 albusteve  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 3:45:24pm

re: #364 darthstar

Let's not forget Rick Perry thinks Tehran is a village outside Taos. If he becomes President, you're fucked.

Wrong...the Feds don't fuck me...it's the other way around

369 Ben G. Hazi  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 3:45:35pm

re: #364 darthstar

Let's not forget Rick Perry thinks Tehran is a village outside Taos. If he becomes President, you're fucked.

Stopped in Taos on my way from Cimarron back home to Nashville, via Albuquerque and Denver, back in July...pretty place. The Taos Inn has some damn good food too.

370 darthstar  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 3:47:55pm

re: #366 talon_262

You gonna get off your high horse before you fall off it and break your neck?

Maybe I missed something, but I didn't see anything upthread calling for imminent, unjustifiable action against Iran, only to expect some action on our part if Iran tries anything hinky.

It's fantasizing about possible future conflict, and it's little different from me fantasizing about the Vikings getting 40 years' revenge against the Dolphins in the Superbowl. I want it to happen, and I want Fran Tarkenton to see what he broke a 10 year old boy's heart over, that "That's Incredible!" fucker...no, I'm not bitter.

371 albusteve  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 3:48:16pm

re: #369 talon_262

Stopped in Taos on my way from Cimarron back home to Nashville, via Albuquerque and Denver, back in July...pretty place. The Taos Inn has some damn good food too.

Michaels Kitchen is renowned...world class chow

372 Gus  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 3:48:55pm

Venezuela sees 'record murder rate' in 2011

A Venezuelan campaign group says the country has suffered a record number of murders in 2011.

The Venezuela Violence Observatory says at least 19,336 people have been killed this year, an average of 53 a day.

The figures suggest Venezuela's murder rate is the highest in South America and four times that of Mexico.

Continues.

The Bolivarian nirvana.

373 darthstar  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 3:49:18pm

re: #372 Gus 802

Venezuela sees 'record murder rate' in 2011

The Bolivarian nirvana.

Venezuela should move to Texas.

374 albusteve  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 3:49:30pm

re: #370 darthstar

It's fantasizing about possible future conflict, and it's little different from me fantasizing about the Vikings getting 40 years' revenge against the Dolphins in the Superbowl. I want it to happen, and I want Fran Tarkenton to see what he broke a 10 year old boy's heart over, that "That's Incredible!" fucker...no, I'm not bitter.

All your footballs are belong to us...

375 engineer cat  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 3:49:51pm

re: #367 kirkspencer

I'm close to being an Obot, and I don't.

i'm with you, but the administration seems inclined to press the issue

the magic eight ball says look for the iran crisis to dominate the news early in the coming year

376 darthstar  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 3:50:33pm

re: #374 albusteve

All your footballs are belong to us...

You can have my little green ones...wait...those are mine. You can have the chocolate ones with peanut-butter inside.

377 Ben G. Hazi  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 3:51:21pm

re: #370 darthstar

It's fantasizing about possible future conflict, and it's little different from me fantasizing about the Vikings getting 40 years' revenge against the Dolphins in the Superbowl. I want it to happen, and I want Fran Tarkenton to see what he broke a 10 year old boy's heart over, that "That's Incredible!" fucker...no, I'm not bitter.

You're not crocheting things with "Die Fran Die" on them, are you?

/apologies to Ace Ventura

378 Digital Display  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 3:52:15pm

re: #374 albusteve

All your footballs are belong to us...

Welcome to Oklahoma..I like driving through the different Indian Nations here

379 darthstar  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 3:52:37pm

re: #377 talon_262

You're not crocheting things with "Die Fran" on them are you?

/apologies to Ace Ventura

I hate crochet...I'm a knitter.

380 albusteve  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 3:53:03pm

re: #373 darthstar

Venezuela should move to Texas.

Why not CA where the progs revere Chavez?

381 Gus  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 3:53:05pm

Whew. That was close.

//

382 Ben G. Hazi  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 3:53:49pm

re: #372 Gus 802

Venezuela sees 'record murder rate' in 2011

The Bolivarian nirvana.

That's seriously fucked up...

383 darthstar  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 3:53:57pm

Okay...time to skip out and wash the car. Then head up to the city for a swim before crossing the Golden Gate into freakville to hang at my sister's for the night.

384 Gus  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 3:54:43pm

re: #382 talon_262

That's seriously fucked up...

Yep. The Bolivarian Revolution is a failure.

385 albusteve  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 3:55:07pm

re: #378 HoosierHoops

Welcome to Oklahoma..I like driving through the different Indian Nations here

Conversely, I can't wait to leave....one of these days I'll swing through Norman and we will hoist a few to ourselves

386 Gus  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 3:57:27pm

re: #373 darthstar

Venezuela should move to Texas Sean Penn's house.

//FTFY

;)

387 albusteve  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 3:58:09pm

I see they are building a giant penis in OK City

388 Bubblehead II  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 3:58:22pm

re: #330 kirkspencer

Thank You for clarifying that.

389 albusteve  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 4:00:29pm

Probably house the new offices of Stiffy, Wood, and Hardon Inc.

390 wilburs  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 4:00:39pm

re: #293 RadicalModerate

Question for the legal types out there:
Is this legal?

Va. GOP to require loyalty oath in presidential primary

Other states have done this in the past, but it is pretty rare. VA law allows the parties considerable leeway in determining eligibility, in part, because the state does not register voters by party affiliation. But, as many have pointed out, this is a meaningless exercise serving only to annoy voters.

It seems to me that in doing this now, they are in fact, violating the law, as it clearly states:

The requirements applicable to a party's primary shall be determined at least 90 days prior to the primary date and certified to, and approved by, the State Board.


But then, laws don't seem to apply to Republicans when they are considered to be inconvenient.

391 albusteve  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 4:01:38pm

A law firm...firm, get it?

392 Digital Display  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 4:02:12pm

re: #387 albusteve

I see they are building a giant penis in OK City

Downtown is really growing.. You should come to the Music festival in Spring here in Norman.. It's really fun..

393 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 4:02:32pm

re: #372 Gus 802

Venezuela sees 'record murder rate' in 2011

The Bolivarian nirvana.

Speaking of... America's purposefully giving cancer to South American Presidents.

394 Gus  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 4:03:00pm

re: #393 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Speaking of... America's purposefully giving cancer to South American Presidents.

Again?

//

395 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 4:03:49pm

re: #394 Gus 802

Go figure.

396 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 4:04:21pm

re: #393 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Speaking of... America's purposefully giving cancer to South American Presidents.

Middle aged men are being diagnosed with cancer. This is very strange indeed.

397 Gus  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 4:04:28pm

re: #395 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Go figure.

I'm almost certain he made that claim before

398 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 4:05:25pm

re: #397 Gus 802

I'm almost certain he made that claim before

If we were able to give that little shit cancer, I hope we would.

399 Gus  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 4:05:43pm

re: #396 SanFranciscoZionist

Middle aged men are being diagnosed with cancer. This is very strange indeed.

You heard that Fernandez was diagnosed with thyroid cancer? That makes for four South American leaders with cancer now: Argentina, Brazil, Paraguay, and Venezuela.

400 Achilles Tang  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 4:05:50pm

re: #396 SanFranciscoZionist

Middle aged men are being diagnosed with cancer. This is very strange indeed.

People. One woman in there.

401 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 4:10:24pm

re: #399 Gus 802

You heard that Fernandez was diagnosed with thyroid cancer? That makes for four South American leaders with cancer now: Argentina, Brazil, Paraguay, and Venezuela.

I blame the Equator.

402 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 4:12:07pm

re: #399 Gus 802

You heard that Fernandez was diagnosed with thyroid cancer? That makes for four South American leaders with cancer now: Argentina, Brazil, Paraguay, and Venezuela.

So, basically a quarter of South American heads of state?

How many people develop some form of cancer during their lives? One in three in the UK.

Let me just say that there are a hell of a lot of factors I would look to before thinking that the United States is secretly sticking needles in these folks. (Also, our strategy seems odd. Do we really dislike Kirchner, for example, enough to kill her? With a treatable form of cancer?)

403 Gus  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 4:14:37pm

re: #402 SanFranciscoZionist

So, basically a quarter of South American heads of state?

How many people develop some form of cancer during their lives? One in three in the UK.

Let me just say that there are a hell of a lot of factors I would look to before thinking that the United States is secretly sticking needles in these folks. (Also, our strategy seems odd. Do we really dislike Kirchner, for example, enough to kill her? With a treatable form of cancer?)

Oh yeah. All that talk from Chavez is just nuts. Cancer is the second leading cause of death. And cancer is no only caused because of smoking.

404 CriticalDragon1177  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 10:04:37pm

Charles Johnson,

Spencer has no business calling himself a scholar, as does anyone who graduated from his "Jihad University." He's a fraud is what he is. I just wish that I and no one else for that matter was ever dumb enough to listen to him and take him seriously as an expert.

405 budda10000  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 10:37:05pm

Something almost exactly like this happened in Los Angeles back in 2008 as I recall. I was driving down to visit my now ex-gf and some guy dressed as santa crashed the xmas party of his ex-wife dressed as santa with a home-made flame thrower and gun. Must have been another honor killing.....
Oh wait no he was a middle aged white male.. it was just domestic violence to the extreme.

406 boxhead  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 11:05:27pm

What horrible story.... Anyone trying to make a political statement out of this tragedy..... arrr...

too many attempts to express my opinion in a non flammable fashion...

people need to act like humans.....

407 CriticalDragon1177  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 11:48:06pm

re: #406 boxhead

Its even worse when someone uses something like this to promote bigotry, against a particular group of people and acts like its representative of all or even most members of that group with no good reason to think so.


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