Pamela Geller Freaks Out Over ‘Bare Naked Islam’ Shutdown

And her commenters are nauseating

Hate group leader Pamela Geller is losing it over wordpress.com shutting down the “Bare Naked Islam” anti-Muslim blog: BNI SHUT DOWN AGAIN, HAMAS-TIED CAIR DOES VICTORY DANCE!!!!! - Atlas Shrugs.

After ranting about the threats she has received (as if that somehow excuses threats against other people), Geller concludes her babbling post with this:

I condemn all calls for killing and genocide.

I don’t know what was said at Bare Naked Islam. Some of what I see I would not host or post on Atlas. But I don’t CAIR. The difference between an exchange of ideas and an exchange of blows is self-evident.

If I had a blog on wordpress, I would pull it. I would. Because it’s only a matter of time until something you say doesn’t meet with the Muslim Brotherhood guidelines.

The fundamental principle of free speech is the protection of all speech, not just speech we like. Because who decides what’s good and what’s forbidden? The Hamas-tied thugs and enemies of free speech at CAIR?

If it can happen to BNI, it can happen to any of us. Contact support@wordpress.com.

There’s the rub. All of these freaks know they’re walking a tightrope, making alliances with thuggish groups like the English Defense League, and inciting the ugliest kind of extreme hatred — but keeping up a masquerade of “condemning” it at the same time. It’s no surprise that they’re worried by what happened to “Bare Naked Islam,” and they should be.

Here are some of the comments in Geller’s thread about the closure, just to bring this point home. The non-stop hatred has driven these people insane.

*ALL* of BNI’s comments are monitored, ALL.
They just dont want the TRUTH to come out about Islam and how evil it is.

Evil hides, truth reveals.

YOU ARE EVIL, ISLAM!
AND, you are for ISLAM first before America.

[…]

BNI was an amazing side , how dare they shut it down ? I guess we are allready living under sharia law , I want BNI back and I will do whatever it takes to get it back , this makes me hate muslims even more than ever before …they are pure SCUM

[…]

I’m sure the financial backers of CAIR (read sowdis) are putting pressure on Wordpress. This is bigger than CAIR . I smell rats and some of them may also be in the White House.

Interesting that this should suddenly happen, while Wordpress is supposedly on holidays, and the OIC has just been here and petitioned the government for silence about condemning islam. RATS, everywhere.

[…]

I say this to the cowards there:

Nothing quite like being a TRAITOR TO CIVILIZATION, is there?

Why not just post a big banner on your homepage saying:

“TELLING THE TRUTH IST VERBOTEN!”

and

“STOP TELLING THE TRUTH! (it hurts the criminals feelings)!”

Listen, jerks: we have the right to accuse the criminals (moslems) of their crimes!
Especially when we use their own “holy” words, proclamations and actions to do it!

“TurdPress - Gilding The Turds for the islamic extortion racket since 2011!”

;-(

As for what constitutes free speech? Anything backed up by facts (aka the Truth)!
Even Aristotle, ages ago, noticed that “slander” is ONLY pre-judice, and vice-versa!
It used to be, when we had laws concerning slander (and it’s written form, “libel”) you always had the legal Defense of the Truth to fall back on. But moslems didn’t like the Truth, so they got their libtarded todaies to create “hate crimes” ‘laws,’ in stead - where they go after the symptoms and effects of ongoinf injustices (the perfectly natural human emotional response of perpetual anger, aka ‘hate’ in stead of going after the causes - the crimes) so now they pretend to make it “illegal” to HATE CRIMES (like islam)!

;-)

[…]

The koran is a violent piece of fiction, it creates violent brainwashed cult members who love nothing more than blowing the limbs from themselves and others all over the streets. blood and death is all they are about. That is the truth, and without sites such as BNI they,d be operating unoppossed. Come back soon BNI, the truth still needs telling. As has already been said if we allow the death cult to silence one site, they will think they can silence them all. Wordpress are feeble. Keep sending them complaints.

[…]

I have never seen a better site in this topical realm of fighting the evil death cult masquerading as one of the worlds great religions - and I seen scores of these sites. The archived material, by topic, is a clearing house for rebuttal of Islamic lies and resistance tactics in general. It’s an educational resource that will quickly bring anyone up to speed on what Islam really is. The site itself is a networking opportunity and a rallying point for those who want to get active or remain active in the crusade against the worst evil the world has ever known.

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203 comments

1 wrenchwench  Fri, Dec 30, 2011 12:12:40pm

Creepiest Geller photo ever (so far). Hate and age are not a good combo for one's appearance.

2 Archangelus  Fri, Dec 30, 2011 12:13:36pm

The shrieking harpy is shrieking over this? I'm shocked, I tell you, shocked!!

/sarc

3 Randall Gross  Fri, Dec 30, 2011 12:14:22pm
If I had a blog on wordpress, I would pull it.

If Pam had her blog on wordpress it might actually fully load in under ten minutes.

Humor aside, there are threats all throughout Pam's comments as well, I doubt it would stand scrutiny.

4 Kragar  Fri, Dec 30, 2011 12:14:38pm

Read this, then remember that they're claiming the Muslims (all the Muslims) are the hate filled lunatics and they're just defending themselves.

Kookoo.

5 zephirus  Fri, Dec 30, 2011 12:16:23pm

The pic truly reflects a sense of her inner beauty. LOL.

6 Archangelus  Fri, Dec 30, 2011 12:16:34pm

re: #3 Thanos

I doubt it would stand scrutiny.

Spoiler alert: It doesn't.

7 Targetpractice  Fri, Dec 30, 2011 12:16:58pm

Is that Skeletor in drag? No wait, sorry, it's Crazy Pam. *rolls eyes*

What is it about this situation that these nutbars don't understand? It's not as though Wordpress hid its terms of service in a locked file cabinet in an unlit basement at the bottom of the Empire State Building. It's right there, in black and white, for all to see. And it quite clearly states that sites that advocate violence will have their plugs pulled.

Wordpress is under no obligation and is not required by any law to host sites that violate its terms of service. If anything, they are negligent for waiting until CAIR blew the whistle and the FBI investigated to enforce their own TOS and shut down BNI. Not that I expect Crazy Pam to understand any of that, as doing so first requires one to be on speaking terms with reality.

8 Charles Johnson  Fri, Dec 30, 2011 12:17:00pm

re: #3 Thanos

If Pam had her blog on wordpress it might actually fully load in under ten minutes.

Humor aside, there are threats all throughout Pam's comments as well, I doubt it would stand scrutiny.

Her blog is hosted by TypePad, which is very similar to Wordpress.com.

9 zephirus  Fri, Dec 30, 2011 12:17:47pm

re: #3 Thanos

If Pam had her blog on wordpress it might actually fully load in under ten minutes.

It would be a full load, indeed.

10 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Fri, Dec 30, 2011 12:17:50pm

OT--sorry--Newt has wept over his mother.

Please, please, let it end here. I don't need to see the GOP candidates weeping over their mothers in a show of true-Americanness.

11 Simply Sarah  Fri, Dec 30, 2011 12:20:54pm

re: #2 Archangelus

The shrieking harpy is shrieking over this? I'm shocked, I tell you, shocked!!

/sarc

re: #7 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

Is that Skeletor in drag? No wait, sorry, it's Crazy Pam. *rolls eyes*

OK, OK. Geller is a hateful bigot and I think we all share rather strong feelings against her here, but can we not attack her womanhood? It's uncalled for and starts to sink to her level.

12 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Fri, Dec 30, 2011 12:20:59pm

CAIR is "Hamas", now? I thought they were Moozlum Brotherhood.

Wait, everything is Moozlum Brotherhood. So, nevermind. /

13 jaunte  Fri, Dec 30, 2011 12:21:43pm
I condemn all calls for killing and genocide. I don’t know what was said at Bare Naked Islam. Some of what I see I would not host or post on Atlas. But I don’t CAIR.

Very Paulian.

14 zephirus  Fri, Dec 30, 2011 12:22:13pm

re: #10 EmmmieG

He's so...so very human. What with the little animals, and now the weeping. Gosh, maybe he WOULD be excellent in the role of leader of the free world. I am so, like, moved.

15 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Fri, Dec 30, 2011 12:23:11pm

re: #14 zephirus

He's so...so very human. What with the little animals, and now the weeping. Gosh, maybe he WOULD be excellent in the role of leader of the free world. I am so, like, moved.

He's been possessed by Beck.
/

16 Targetpractice  Fri, Dec 30, 2011 12:23:51pm

re: #11 Simply Sarah

re: #7 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

OK, OK. Geller is a hateful bigot and I think we all share rather strong feelings against her here, but can we not attack her womanhood? It's uncalled for and starts to sink to her level.

"Beauty may be skin deep, but ugly goes clear to the bone."

17 zephirus  Fri, Dec 30, 2011 12:25:19pm

re: #15 oaktree

He's been possessed by Beck.
/

Maybe he's also using the Vicks Vapo Rub technique:

18 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Dec 30, 2011 12:26:06pm

re: #10 EmmmieG

OT--sorry--Newt has wept over his mother.

Please, please, let it end here. I don't need to see the GOP candidates weeping over their mothers in a show of true-Americanness.

What happened to his mother?

19 Simply Sarah  Fri, Dec 30, 2011 12:26:38pm

re: #16 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

"Beauty may be skin deep, but ugly goes clear to the bone."

True as that may be, I find it extremely disturbing and distasteful to attack someone, especially a woman on their looks. Better to focus exclusively on their ugly ideas, words, and actions.

20 BishopX  Fri, Dec 30, 2011 12:26:53pm

re: #18 SanFranciscoZionist

She gave birth to newt.

21 kirkspencer  Fri, Dec 30, 2011 12:27:03pm

To paraphrase a comment in the last thread:

if instead of Muslim they'd said Jews (previous poster used Christians) for the comments and the site as a whole, it'd be drawing quite a different response.

22 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Fri, Dec 30, 2011 12:27:40pm

If it's hate and threats of violence it doesn't matter if CAIR, or anyone, points it out. Equal treatment under the TOS.

And the looks of who is complaining about it shouldn't be a factor either. Pam or Sofia, it's still silly to whine about a site being pulled for breaking TOS simply because it's one that is on "your side".

Self-policing is better than always being partisan. Otherwise it is obvious that your first priority is the partisan side, not the truth and reality of the situation.

23 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Dec 30, 2011 12:28:13pm

re: #11 Simply Sarah

re: #7 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

OK, OK. Geller is a hateful bigot and I think we all share rather strong feelings against her here, but can we not attack her womanhood? It's uncalled for and starts to sink to her level.

Fair cop. I do wince when I see these photos, though. I don't think she's eating enough.

(Then again, I just started the Mother of All Diets, so who the hell I think I am to bitch...)

24 Sheila Broflovski  Fri, Dec 30, 2011 12:28:31pm

re: #8 Charles

Her blog is hosted by TypePad, which is very similar to Wordpress.com.

Should I remove my blog from Typepad, because they host Pamela? I could switch to Wordpress. :)

But it must totally suck to be Pamela. Spending your whole life hating on people does not make you a happy person.

25 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Dec 30, 2011 12:28:56pm

re: #12 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

CAIR is "Hamas", now? I thought they were Moozlum Brotherhood.

Wait, everything is Moozlum Brotherhood. So, nevermind. /

Well, Hamas IS Moozlum Brotherhood, so if CAIR is also Moozlum Brotherhood...

26 Targetpractice  Fri, Dec 30, 2011 12:29:01pm

re: #19 Simply Sarah

True as that may be, I find it extremely disturbing and distasteful to attack someone, especially a woman on their looks. Better to focus exclusively on their ugly ideas, words, and actions.

You're right, it was wrong of me to go for the cheap shot. But, in my defense, that's the first I've seen that picture and it was rather...jarring.

27 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Dec 30, 2011 12:30:15pm

And Re: TELLING THE TRUTH IST VERBOTEN, please, guys, I know you want to use German to make a funny about how they're Nazis, and that your German is limited, but please, all English or all German. Run it through Babelfish if you must.

28 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Fri, Dec 30, 2011 12:30:19pm

re: #25 SanFranciscoZionist

Well, Hamas IS Moozlum Brotherhood, so if CAIR is also Moozlum Brotherhood...

I know, but they're always shrieking everything = MUZZLUMZ BROTHERHUUUUD, I was surprised to see them change it up a bit.

29 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Fri, Dec 30, 2011 12:30:23pm

re: #24 Alouette

Should I remove my blog from Typepad, because they host Pamela? I could switch to Wordpress. :)

But it must totally suck to be Pamela. Spending your whole life hating on people does not make you a happy person.

I just finished _I Shall Wear Midnight_ and there is a common statement in there about there always are those about who will gladly allow poison (hate) to enter and then use them.

30 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Dec 30, 2011 12:30:44pm

re: #14 zephirus

He's so...so very human. What with the little animals, and now the weeping. Gosh, maybe he WOULD be excellent in the role of leader of the free world. I am so, like, moved.

Yes, I've always wanted a president who sits weeping, surrounded by small animals, all the time.

31 theheat  Fri, Dec 30, 2011 12:30:53pm

Probably someone ought to spill the beans all the code Wordpress uses, its templates and servers, are all halal.

That stealth jihad stuff didn't end with turkey. Nossir. //

32 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Dec 30, 2011 12:31:07pm

re: #20 BishopX

She gave birth to newt.

My God, the poor woman.

33 Randall Gross  Fri, Dec 30, 2011 12:32:04pm

As I pointed out in the last thread, WP has also taken down Islamic terror blogs for the exact same violation of terms of service, they are actually pretty good about not allowing incitement of violence.

34 Archangelus  Fri, Dec 30, 2011 12:32:17pm

re: #11 Simply Sarah

But can we not attack her womanhood? It's uncalled for and starts to sink to her level.

My apologies, didn't think I was; Having seen it in several dozens of LGF entries by now, I was under the assumption that it was a legitimate, established nickname for her...

35 Targetpractice  Fri, Dec 30, 2011 12:32:17pm

re: #30 SanFranciscoZionist

Yes, I've always wanted a president who sits weeping, surrounded by small animals, all the time.

I try to imagine ol' Ron Reagan, sitting there, crying while surrounded by small animals...and all I keep getting is the mental equivalent of the BSOD.

36 theheat  Fri, Dec 30, 2011 12:32:34pm

re: #30 SanFranciscoZionist

Makes spectacular garden statuary, that. //

37 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Dec 30, 2011 12:33:25pm

I like this:

pre-judice

unnecessary hyphen overdrive!

38 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Dec 30, 2011 12:33:55pm

re: #36 theheat

Makes spectacular garden statuary, that. //

Like Niobe, but in a suit, and surrounded by woodland creatures and Pomeranians.

(Can you tell I have nothing new to say about Pam and the Gang?)

39 Charles Johnson  Fri, Dec 30, 2011 12:34:30pm

re: #19 Simply Sarah

By the way, I've always used "Shrieking Harpy" as a comment on her personality, not her looks.

40 wrenchwench  Fri, Dec 30, 2011 12:34:52pm

re: #19 Simply Sarah

True as that may be, I find it extremely disturbing and distasteful to attack someone, especially a woman on their looks. Better to focus exclusively on their ugly ideas, words, and actions.

I usually refrain from going after someone's looks, but Geller has gone from not-bad-looking to ghastly in a few short years. I think her ideas show in her face. I've seen people with horrible skin conditions and scars who were pleasant to look at because they smiled at people and treated everyone nicely. Avoiding what might usually be based on sexism is unnecessary in this case. I think part of Geller's problem stems from her own fixation on the superficial, which has caused her to overindulge in medical attempts to preserve her looks.

Just my opinion. I apologize if I still offend you. I'm sorry, and I do appreciate the way you stick to your principles.

41 Randall Gross  Fri, Dec 30, 2011 12:35:25pm

re: #39 Charles

By the way, I've always used "Shrieking Harpy" as a comment on her personality, not her looks.

If you've ever seen her speak, no explanation is needed!

42 Simply Sarah  Fri, Dec 30, 2011 12:35:30pm

re: #23 SanFranciscoZionist

Fair cop. I do wince when I see these photos, though. I don't think she's eating enough.

(Then again, I just started the Mother of All Diets, so who the hell I think I am to bitch...)

Perhaps that's the case. It's just not related to the vile hate she constantly puts out.

I do apologize for the fact that I'm probably coming across as the Rar Angry Feminist Police, but I can't morally go without saying something. Yeah, I'm like that.

43 Charles Johnson  Fri, Dec 30, 2011 12:35:32pm

re: #33 Thanos

As I pointed out in the last thread, WP has also taken down Islamic terror blogs for the exact same violation of terms of service, they are actually pretty good about not allowing incitement of violence.

I just checked TypePad's TOS, though, and they don't have the same provision against threats and incitement to violence.

44 windsagio  Fri, Dec 30, 2011 12:36:07pm

Gellar is an 'established enemy' so anything goes.

45 Randall Gross  Fri, Dec 30, 2011 12:37:00pm

re: #43 Charles

I just checked TypePad's TOS, though, and they don't have the same provision against threats and incitement to violence.

One of the other reasons I don't care for typepad much.

46 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Fri, Dec 30, 2011 12:37:10pm

re: #44 windsagio

Gellar is an 'established enemy' so anything goes.

I don't think that is true.

47 wrenchwench  Fri, Dec 30, 2011 12:37:12pm

re: #44 windsagio

Gellar is an 'established enemy' so anything goes.

What does that mean? Is it another internet meme flying over my head?

48 theheat  Fri, Dec 30, 2011 12:37:22pm

re: #38 SanFranciscoZionist

Like Niobe, but in a suit, and surrounded by woodland creatures and Pomeranians.

More likely, in a smoking jacket, surrounded by mounted trophies and heads on walls, most likely from canned hunts. They aren't so fond of live animals.

49 NJDhockeyfan  Fri, Dec 30, 2011 12:37:50pm

re: #33 Thanos

As I pointed out in the last thread, WP has also taken down Islamic terror blogs for the exact same violation of terms of service, they are actually pretty good about not allowing incitement of violence.

Facebook should do the same thing.

50 windsagio  Fri, Dec 30, 2011 12:38:21pm

re: #47 wrenchwench

What does that mean? Is it another internet meme flying over my head?

na just me being me.

Seriously though, gellar is nuts sure (In my mind I still think its attention-schtick though), but She and Charles have gotten a lot of discussion and energy off of putting each other on blast.

51 Simply Sarah  Fri, Dec 30, 2011 12:38:27pm

re: #34 Archangelus

My apologies, didn't think I was; Having seen it in several dozens of LGF entries by now, I was under the assumption that it was a legitimate, established nickname for her...

Well, it is established. I cannot deny that. I also cannot deny that I, personally, don't like it being applied since it comes off as sexist. Obviously, it isn't my blog and I don't set the rules or write the blog entries, so I can only state my personal feelings and reasoning with the hope that I might change some minds and not piss off too many people. *coughs*

52 theheat  Fri, Dec 30, 2011 12:39:03pm

re: #40 wrenchwench

Portrait of Dorian Gray comes to mind.

53 albusteve  Fri, Dec 30, 2011 12:39:16pm

re: #44 windsagio

Gellar is an 'established enemy' so anything goes.

huh?...what's that supposed to mean?

54 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Dec 30, 2011 12:39:28pm

re: #42 Simply Sarah

Perhaps that's the case. It's just not related to the vile hate she constantly puts out.

I do apologize for the fact that I'm probably coming across as the Rar Angry Feminist Police, but I can't morally go without saying something. Yeah, I'm like that.

No, I get what you're saying, and you're right. I will say, though, that she doesn't look like someone who's eating well, sleeping well, or at ease in her skin, and that, I think, has something to do with this hectic lifestyle of hate she seems to be living.

55 Targetpractice  Fri, Dec 30, 2011 12:40:17pm

re: #42 Simply Sarah

Perhaps that's the case. It's just not related to the vile hate she constantly puts out.

I do apologize for the fact that I'm probably coming across as the Rar Angry Feminist Police, but I can't morally go without saying something. Yeah, I'm like that.

And sometimes, it's good to have folks like you as our...well, conscience, for lack of a better term. Somebody there to point out that we shouldn't only look at the superficial or rely upon insults to a person's appearance to serve as valid criticism. And, occasionally, crack us upside the head when we don't listen.

56 wrenchwench  Fri, Dec 30, 2011 12:40:34pm

re: #50 windsagio

na just me being me.

Seriously though, gellar is nuts sure (In my mind I still think its attention-schtick though), but She and Charles have gotten a lot of discussion and energy off of putting each other on blast.

I detect some false equivalence.

[BBL]

57 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Dec 30, 2011 12:41:06pm

re: #49 NJDhockeyfan

Facebook should do the same thing.

They have. There was one last year, advocating finding a 'mate' for Gilad Shalit by kidnapping a female IDF soldier.

Facebook got a bunch of reports and took it down.

There have been others, and I'm sure stuff like BNI's gets reported and removed as well.

58 Simply Sarah  Fri, Dec 30, 2011 12:41:26pm

re: #39 Charles

By the way, I've always used "Shrieking Harpy" as a comment on her personality, not her looks.

Yeah, I know. I still don't like it, but you're the boss and you can decide what is and isn't allowed. Most I can do is what I'm doing now and state my thoughts or, if it really bothered me, simply not post. I don't really intend on the latter, so I'm sticking to the former for now. We'll see what comes of it.

59 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Fri, Dec 30, 2011 12:41:28pm

re: #50 windsagio

na just me being me.

Seriously though, gellar is nuts sure (In my mind I still think its attention-schtick though), but She and Charles have gotten a lot of discussion and energy off of putting each other on blast.

That could well be true, but there are obviously commenters uncomfortable with how some of the comments are portrayed - or potentially can be taken out of context.

I also suspect that a comment explicitly advocating violence towards her would be deleted as soon as it came to Charles' attention. And that said comment would be reported to Charles by readers/commenters here about as soon as it was posted.

60 Targetpractice  Fri, Dec 30, 2011 12:41:57pm

re: #52 theheat

Portrait of Dorian Gray comes to mind.

Does this mean the portrait is getting younger and younger?

61 Randall Gross  Fri, Dec 30, 2011 12:42:07pm

Heh, there are some comments saying that the comments were planted by CAIR. Meanwhile they can't see the generic seething hate for all muslims popping up fresh, and coming from regular posters, in the thread they are posting in. It's one of those facepalm things.

62 windsagio  Fri, Dec 30, 2011 12:42:15pm

re: #56 wrenchwench

I detect some false equivalence.

[BBL]

In their feud? yeah.

In their blogs and postings? 1000000 times no :p

SS is right though, even if it doesn't bug me much the 'shrieking harpy' thing and the image that usually gets put up (if I'm thinking of the right one), are entirely about her being a woman. It's just 'okay' because of the extremely toxic history.

63 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Fri, Dec 30, 2011 12:42:38pm

As a simple note about skin:

What you eat and drink comes out in your skin. If you are eating whole grains and fruits and veggies, it shows.

If you drink and smoke, it shows.

Only tanning has more effect.

64 Targetpractice  Fri, Dec 30, 2011 12:43:06pm

re: #61 Thanos

Heh, there are some comments saying that the comments were planted by CAIR. Meanwhile they can't see the generic seething hate for all muslims popping up fresh, and coming from regular posters, in the thread they are posting in. It's one of those facepalm things.

"How dare they call us violent and hateful? I'll beat their fucking heads in for saying that!"

//

65 NJDhockeyfan  Fri, Dec 30, 2011 12:43:22pm

re: #57 SanFranciscoZionist

They have. There was one last year, advocating finding a 'mate' for Gilad Shalit by kidnapping a female IDF soldier.

Facebook got a bunch of reports and took it down.

There have been others, and I'm sure stuff like BNI's gets reported and removed as well.

I don't know how long this particular webpage has been active but I'm curious as to how much longer it will last. I see a few people said they already reported it.

66 Charles Johnson  Fri, Dec 30, 2011 12:43:32pm

By the way, I didn't originate the term "Shrieking Harpy" for Pamela Geller. It started at left wing blogs - they Google-bombed her with it.

67 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Fri, Dec 30, 2011 12:44:16pm

re: #49 NJDhockeyfan

Facebook should do the same thing.

That 3rd Intifada page, 'memba that?

Facebook Inc. said it took down a page promoting a new Palestinian intifada against Israel because it made “direct calls for violence,” in violation of policies set forth by the social-networking site.

The administrators of the page, which Israeli officials had asked to be taken down earlier this month, initially removed comments that promoted violence, Debbie Frost, a spokeswoman for Facebook, said in an e-mail. The page’s administrators themselves later joined in the calls for violence, she said.

Oh wait, you're not even on FB so you probably have limited information about their TOS. Nevermind, then.

68 Charles Johnson  Fri, Dec 30, 2011 12:44:38pm

re: #59 oaktree

I also suspect that a comment explicitly advocating violence towards her would be deleted as soon as it came to Charles' attention. And that said comment would be reported to Charles by readers/commenters here about as soon as it was posted.

You don't have to suspect that -- you can take it to the bank.

69 allegro  Fri, Dec 30, 2011 12:44:41pm

re: #40 wrenchwench

I usually refrain from going after someone's looks, but Geller has gone from not-bad-looking to ghastly in a few short years. I think her ideas show in her face. I've seen people with horrible skin conditions and scars who were pleasant to look at because they smiled at people and treated everyone nicely. Avoiding what might usually be based on sexism is unnecessary in this case. I think part of Geller's problem stems from her own fixation on the superficial, which has caused her to overindulge in medical attempts to preserve her looks.

Just my opinion. I apologize if I still offend you. I'm sorry, and I do appreciate the way you stick to your principles.

Your comment made me instantly think of that beautiful young man who won the last Dancing With the Stars trophy, J.R. Martinez. Quite horribly disfigured and scarred from war injuries, his delightfully fun, positive, and loving personality made him one of the most attractive people I've ever seen.

70 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Dec 30, 2011 12:45:25pm

re: #65 NJDhockeyfan

I don't know how long this particular webpage has been active but I'm curious as to how much longer it will last. I see a few people said they already reported it.

I reported last night. I'm going to alert a few folks today. We'll see.

71 albusteve  Fri, Dec 30, 2011 12:45:42pm

re: #67 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

That 3rd Intifada page, 'memba that?

Oh wait, you're not even on FB so you probably have limited information about their TOS
. Nevermind, then.

that's a good thing, worthy of attention

72 Simply Sarah  Fri, Dec 30, 2011 12:45:58pm

re: #40 wrenchwench

I usually refrain from going after someone's looks, but Geller has gone from not-bad-looking to ghastly in a few short years. I think her ideas show in her face. I've seen people with horrible skin conditions and scars who were pleasant to look at because they smiled at people and treated everyone nicely. Avoiding what might usually be based on sexism is unnecessary in this case. I think part of Geller's problem stems from her own fixation on the superficial, which has caused her to overindulge in medical attempts to preserve her looks.

Just my opinion. I apologize if I still offend you. I'm sorry, and I do appreciate the way you stick to your principles.

Oh, I cannot disagree that Geller seems to done herself a disservice through excessive medical intervention. And if she were to start talking about something on that topic, it may, to some degree, become valid to discuss in some sense. When talking about her rantings, though, I really feel commenting on her looks should be avoided.

And yeah, my principles are pretty dear to me, even if they often aren't ideal for smooth social interaction.

73 windsagio  Fri, Dec 30, 2011 12:45:59pm

re: #59 oaktree

I think that goes without saying :p

And I don't want ot make it a blame thing either, but SS is making a valid point about the term (kind of like how the 'barbie doll' thing with Palin is kind of dehumanizing too), and altho its kind of fine to me, it shouldn't just be denied.

74 Simply Sarah  Fri, Dec 30, 2011 12:46:50pm

re: #43 Charles

I just checked TypePad's TOS, though, and they don't have the same provision against threats and incitement to violence.

I'm honestly a bit surprised. I'd have expected that to be pretty standard, if only as a CYA measure.

75 NJDhockeyfan  Fri, Dec 30, 2011 12:47:30pm

re: #67 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

That 3rd Intifada page, 'memba that?

Oh wait, you're not even on FB so you probably have limited information about their TOS. Nevermind, then.

There are lots of websites I link to that I call out when necessary. What's the problem?

76 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Fri, Dec 30, 2011 12:48:00pm

re: #71 albusteve

Reiterating: FB actually does do what he suggested they do.

77 windsagio  Fri, Dec 30, 2011 12:48:07pm

also, random, I want a chance to use this in a thread somewhere:

Image: 108949.jpg

(I hope that shows up for people, its hilarious)

78 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Fri, Dec 30, 2011 12:49:10pm

re: #75 NJDhockeyfan

There are lots of websites I link to that I call out when necessary. What's the problem?

There isn't one.

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

79 NJDhockeyfan  Fri, Dec 30, 2011 12:49:34pm

re: #78 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

There isn't one.

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

???

80 Simply Sarah  Fri, Dec 30, 2011 12:49:40pm

re: #44 windsagio

Gellar is an 'established enemy' so anything goes.

No, no, no. That's completely the wrong mindset to take, especially if you're going after someone for preaching hate. You attack their speech and their bigotry and show why they're wrong. Saying 'anything goes' and attacking them in kind only involves you in spreading hate as well.

81 Randall Gross  Fri, Dec 30, 2011 12:50:00pm

re: #66 Charles

By the way, I didn't originate the term "Shrieking Harpy" for Pamela Geller. It started at left wing blogs - they Google-bombed her with it.

I find it entirely appropriate. All you have to do is listen to just one of her hate filled diatribes on youtube to see why there isn't a better appellation. Her voice is hate filled, her tone strident and brutal, and she tends to go nasally off-key and up register with regularity.

82 goddamnedfrank  Fri, Dec 30, 2011 12:50:19pm

re: #62 windsagio

In their feud? yeah.

In their blogs and postings? 1000000 times no :p

SS is right though, even if it doesn't bug me much the 'shrieking harpy' thing and the image that usually gets put up (if I'm thinking of the right one), are entirely about her being a woman. It's just 'okay' because of the extremely toxic history.

Well, the image was created by Curious Lurker, herself a woman, so I'm not sure misogyny was at the root of that creation. It might have more to do with Pamela's presentation as an noxious example of humanity.

83 windsagio  Fri, Dec 30, 2011 12:50:57pm

re: #80 Simply Sarah

I just don't like tribalism, it should be called out.

84 Simply Sarah  Fri, Dec 30, 2011 12:51:38pm

re: #54 SanFranciscoZionist

No, I get what you're saying, and you're right. I will say, though, that she doesn't look like someone who's eating well, sleeping well, or at ease in her skin, and that, I think, has something to do with this hectic lifestyle of hate she seems to be living.

That wouldn't surprise me. Constantly containing and channeling all that hate and related stress doesn't seem like it would be good for your health. Another reason to avoid falling into that pit, I suppose.

85 reine.de.tout  Fri, Dec 30, 2011 12:51:48pm

re: #1 wrenchwench

Creepiest Geller photo ever (so far). Hate and age are not a good combo for one's appearance.

Perhaps time for (more) upkeep.

86 windsagio  Fri, Dec 30, 2011 12:51:54pm

re: #82 goddamnedfrank

oh c'mon!

I wanna get off of this because I'm not doing myself any favors, but you're saying women can't be absolutely awful and sexist to other women?

You haven't spent much time working in a big office, have you?

87 Simply Sarah  Fri, Dec 30, 2011 12:52:46pm

re: #55 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

And sometimes, it's good to have folks like you as our...well, conscience, for lack of a better term. Somebody there to point out that we shouldn't only look at the superficial or rely upon insults to a person's appearance to serve as valid criticism. And, occasionally, crack us upside the head when we don't listen.

Oh, trust me. I'm really good at telling people they're wrong!
/ half

88 NJDhockeyfan  Fri, Dec 30, 2011 12:54:24pm

re: #57 SanFranciscoZionist

They have. There was one last year, advocating finding a 'mate' for Gilad Shalit by kidnapping a female IDF soldier.

Facebook got a bunch of reports and took it down.

There have been others, and I'm sure stuff like BNI's gets reported and removed as well.

Some of those comments go back as far as Sept 5th.

89 Obdicut  Fri, Dec 30, 2011 12:55:02pm

re: #86 windsagio

Are you saying CL was being awful and sexist to Gellar, then? Or what?

I think 'shrieking harpy' is something that'd only be applied to a woman, just like 'cro-magnon thug' would only get applied to a guy. I'm not sure that represents actual misogyny, or just gender worked into our language, nor do I really see any benefit to using specifically gender-neutral insults-- as long as the insult itself is not just "you're female".

And unflattering pictures of people is something that definitely crosses gender lines, or Boehner wouldn't have it so rough.

90 Randall Gross  Fri, Dec 30, 2011 12:56:26pm

I'll admit that Pam's propensity for overexposing her skin to ultraviolet radiation caused me to once pen a song called "Has anyone here Seen Leatherface" sung to the tune of Elton John's "Razorface". That had nothing to do with her being female however, I also made noise about Romney's spray on tan last election.

91 Simply Sarah  Fri, Dec 30, 2011 12:57:14pm

re: #66 Charles

By the way, I didn't originate the term "Shrieking Harpy" for Pamela Geller. It started at left wing blogs - they Google-bombed her with it.

Why am I not surprised. It really becomes hard to identify with the left when so many members of it, supposedly in favour of tolerance, can spawn and spread pretty vile stuff themselves. This is part of why a lot of feminists are wary of left wing dudes that loudly proclaim themselves as male feminists, but that's really another can of worms...

92 God of Binders with Women  Fri, Dec 30, 2011 12:58:00pm

That photo of her is flat out scary. Did Platon shoot that?

93 windsagio  Fri, Dec 30, 2011 12:58:14pm

re: #89 Obdicut

And unflattering pictures of people is something that definitely crosses gender lines, or Boehner wouldn't have it so rough.

Touche'!

~~~

Misogyny would be a bit strong, but the Gellar stuff really does have a definite sexist tinge, just like a LOT of the Palin stuff had a sexist tinge (which some people eventually took too far, and got bitchslapped by Charles for, as noted above).

I don't think its a big deal, but denying its there just isn't right. The denial is what got to me.

94 goddamnedfrank  Fri, Dec 30, 2011 12:59:02pm

re: #86 windsagio

oh c'mon!

I wanna get off of this because I'm not doing myself any favors, but you're saying women can't be absolutely awful and sexist to other women?

You haven't spent much time working in a big office, have you?

Spencer is the Poison Dwarf, right, well have you ever seen a female Dwarf in literature? I'm saying I really don't see the objection as having much merit, because the terms are illustrative and amusing and whatever oblique references to gender they may contain don't strike me as central to the insult. They aren't about dismissing opinions based on gender, instead it's about the atrocious content.

95 Charles Johnson  Fri, Dec 30, 2011 12:59:32pm

re: #89 Obdicut

Frankly, it never even occurred to me to link "shrieking harpy" to Geller's appearance. What does a "shrieking harpy" look like, anyway?

It was always about her personality and her hate speech. The word "harpy" is feminine, but it connotes a raging, out of control, dangerous person.

Sarah, I understand what you're saying, but it's just not about sexism for me. It's a derogatory term, yes, but it's based on her long history of deranged hate speech, not on her gender or her appearance.

96 Obdicut  Fri, Dec 30, 2011 1:00:35pm

For example:

"Don't be such a girl"-- misogynistic, no matter who it's aimed at. Implies being a girl is a negative, associates it with bad stuff.

"Don't be such a princess" -- might be misogynistic, entirely depends on context.

"Don't be such a wailing banshee" -- probably not misogynistic, even though all banshees are female.

97 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Dec 30, 2011 1:00:46pm

re: #88 NJDhockeyfan

Some of those comments go back as far as Sept 5th.

Now they're hitting the radar. We can do it!

(Facebook's flaw is that they wait for shit to be reported, and AFAIK, use little common sense in deciding what should and shouldn't be taken down, they tend to respond to crowd pressure by removing things. I use this, from time to time, but also resent the hell out of it.)

98 windsagio  Fri, Dec 30, 2011 1:00:58pm

re: #94 goddamnedfrank

Spencer is the Poison Dwarf, right, well have you ever seen a female Dwarf in literature? I'm saying I really don't see the objection as having much merit, because the terms are illustrative and amusing and whatever oblique references to gender they may contain don't strike me as central to the insult. They aren't about about dismissing opinions based on gender, instead it's about the atrocious content.

Some of the Munchkins were female.

And I'm gonna drop my little rant with that, its not doing anybody any good :p

99 NJDhockeyfan  Fri, Dec 30, 2011 1:01:41pm

re: #95 Charles

Frankly, it never even occurred to me to link "shrieking harpy" to Geller's appearance. What does a "shrieking harpy" look like, anyway?

It was always about her personality and her hate speech. The word "harpy" is feminine, but it connotes a raging, out of control, dangerous person.

Sarah, I understand what you're saying about, but it's just not about sexism for me. It's a derogatory term, yes, but it's based on her long history of deranged hate speech, not on her gender or her appearance.

Shrieking Harpy

100 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Dec 30, 2011 1:01:46pm

re: #94 goddamnedfrank

Spencer is the Poison Dwarf, right, well have you ever seen a female Dwarf in literature?

Two off the top of my head. More if you count Terry Pratchett.

101 Prideful, Arrogant Marriage Equality Advocate  Fri, Dec 30, 2011 1:01:52pm

If a blog claiming to be a Muslim blog wrote the same exact threats on their site against Christians in particular, these same people would be calling in the National Guard to water board every person responsible for letting the site stay up.

102 Targetpractice  Fri, Dec 30, 2011 1:03:13pm

re: #97 SanFranciscoZionist

Now they're hitting the radar. We can do it!

(Facebook's flaw is that they wait for shit to be reported, and AFAIK, use little common sense in deciding what should and shouldn't be taken down, they tend to respond to crowd pressure by removing things. I use this, from time to time, but also resent the hell out of it.)

It's a flaw common amongst many large sites and hosting services. Even the subject of all the wailing and gnashing teeth, BNI, didn't get yanked down until CAIR blew the whistle and the FBI investigated. Wordpress was lax in enforcing its own TOS, but my guess is that the number of sites under its banner are so many that properly policing them is time-consuming and expensive, a process that can't easily be automated.

103 Obdicut  Fri, Dec 30, 2011 1:03:17pm

re: #100 SanFranciscoZionist

Two off the top of my head. More if you count Terry Pratchett.

Heh and even then, it's rude to point out.

But seriously, if someone says "They opened the door, and there stood a dwarf," most people assume the dwarf is male. That's the inherent bias of our culture, more than it relates to dwarves, though, I think.

104 windsagio  Fri, Dec 30, 2011 1:03:38pm

re: #97 SanFranciscoZionist

Now they're hitting the radar. We can do it!

(Facebook's flaw is that they wait for shit to be reported, and AFAIK, use little common sense in deciding what should and shouldn't be taken down, they tend to respond to crowd pressure by removing things. I use this, from time to time, but also resent the hell out of it.)

which is why you should make sure you don't have any enemies reading your FB

After being frustrated by bad customer service at The Apple Store, in September 2009, Joe jokingly paraphrased a quote from the book/movie Fight Club, which referred to use of firearms, on his Facebook page. In under 2 hours, NYPD SWAT arrived at his door and, after searching his apartment, they brought Joe to the station to be questioned by Homeland Security.[10]

105 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Dec 30, 2011 1:03:51pm

re: #101 Cankles McCellulite

If a blog claiming to be a Muslim blog wrote the same exact threats on their site against Christians in particular, these same people would be calling in the National Guard to water board every person responsible for letting the site stay up.

Sure. But these folks aren't about fair play in any sense. They are RIGHT. Muslims are WRONG. That mindset makes the 'turn this around' example useless on them.

106 Simply Sarah  Fri, Dec 30, 2011 1:04:46pm

re: #95 Charles

Frankly, it never even occurred to me to link "shrieking harpy" to Geller's appearance. What does a "shrieking harpy" look like, anyway?

It was always about her personality and her hate speech. The word "harpy" is feminine, but it connotes a raging, out of control, dangerous person.

Sarah, I understand what you're saying about, but it's just not about sexism for me. It's a derogatory term, yes, but it's based on her long history of deranged hate speech, not on her gender or her appearance.

Like I said, it's your blog and your call. I've stated my thoughts (And semi-derailed the thread) and that is how things are. I will remain troubled by it and reserve the option of bringing it up again in the future, obviously only if you allow it, but I have no intention of making a huge scene and screaming that I should have my way.

I'm just going to have to slowly convince people to see things like I do. *grins*

107 windsagio  Fri, Dec 30, 2011 1:04:50pm

re: #103 Obdicut

I blame Disney

108 Prideful, Arrogant Marriage Equality Advocate  Fri, Dec 30, 2011 1:05:45pm

re: #105 SanFranciscoZionist

HA! You are probably right. It would be useless.

109 Targetpractice  Fri, Dec 30, 2011 1:06:15pm

re: #106 Simply Sarah

Like I said, it's your blog and your call. I've stated my thoughts (And semi-derailed the thread) and that is how things are. I will remain troubled by it and reserve the option of bringing it up again in the future, obviously only if you allow it, but I have no intention of making a huge scene and screaming that I should have my way.

I'm just going to have to slowly convince people to see things like I do. *grins*

As no rolling pins are involved, I'm sure we can work something out.

// *ducks and runs*

110 Simply Sarah  Fri, Dec 30, 2011 1:06:55pm

Back on topic, I suppose even if Geller actually was on a site that had using hate speech as being against its TOS, she'd just move to one that didn't should she get shut down.

111 Randall Gross  Fri, Dec 30, 2011 1:07:56pm

Predictably the bottom of the comment thread at Atlas has turned into a spitting match, someone is saying that Spencer delinked the site, and either the real "Mahone aka Charle Martel" is posting or someone posing as him is.

112 Obdicut  Fri, Dec 30, 2011 1:08:54pm

re: #106 Simply Sarah

You're facing an entire language where the word 'Pussy' is an insult, and 'wimp', too. One is a female-biased insult, the other is a male-biased insult. Both only really apply to men.

The problem is not with the language. The language reflects the problem. Fixing the problem is not a matter of changing the language.

One way this can be seen is the ugly joy that racists show in switching terms when they're not allowed. Instead of saying "porch monkey"-- not sure if that's banned here or not-- they say 'porchmanque'. If you stop them saying that, they'll say 'balcony orangutang', or something else. They love their racist terms, but it's not like you're going to run out of people inventing them.

The problem is not that our language is coded for gender, it's how it became coded for gender.

113 albusteve  Fri, Dec 30, 2011 1:08:57pm

my hate's bigger than your hate...
it's a living

114 goddamnedfrank  Fri, Dec 30, 2011 1:08:57pm

re: #98 windsagio

Some of the Munchkins were female.

And I'm gonna drop my little rant with that, its not doing anybody any good :p

Munchkins aren't real.

We battle for Middle Earth.

You ain't never gonna take Cold Mountain!

115 windsagio  Fri, Dec 30, 2011 1:09:03pm

re: #110 Simply Sarah

Back on topic, I suppose even if Geller actually was on a site that had using hate speech as being against its TOS, she'd just move to one that didn't should she get shut down.

It's part of her schtick, which is outrage.

Getting her site closed down is the perfect time to get in the spotlight again and generate those rage-generated hits (website hits that is, gotta be clear).

116 Targetpractice  Fri, Dec 30, 2011 1:09:08pm

re: #110 Simply Sarah

Back on topic, I suppose even if Geller actually was on a site that had using hate speech as being against its TOS, she'd just move to one that didn't should she get shut down.

Oh, I'm sure she has contingencies in mind should that day ever come.

117 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Fri, Dec 30, 2011 1:12:11pm

re: #103 Obdicut

Heh and even then, it's rude to point out.

But seriously, if someone says "They opened the door, and there stood a dwarf," most people assume the dwarf is male. That's the inherent bias of our culture, more than it relates to dwarves, though, I think.

Though that is generally "dwarf" in the fantasy race sense as compared to "dwarf" in the medical condition sense. Though culturally most of the latter references are still male probably.

118 Simply Sarah  Fri, Dec 30, 2011 1:12:59pm

re: #112 Obdicut

You're facing an entire language where the word 'Pussy' is an insult, and 'wimp', too. One is a female-biased insult, the other is a male-biased insult. Both only really apply to men.

The problem is not with the language. The language reflects the problem. Fixing the problem is not a matter of changing the language.

One way this can be seen is the ugly joy that racists show in switching terms when they're not allowed. Instead of saying "porch monkey"-- not sure if that's banned here or not-- they say 'porchmanque'. If you stop them saying that, they'll say 'balcony orangutang', or something else. They love their racist terms, but it's not like you're going to run out of people inventing them.

The problem is not that our language is coded for gender, it's how it became coded for gender.

You're correct in that the language reflects the culture. However, I feel that by making people aware of this, it can help them see the deeper issues from which the language grew. If people don't stop and think about why the gendered language reflects badly on cultural ideas, they likely won't think about the cultural ideas, either. My hope is that by bringing this sort of thing to peoples' attention, they will also think about why they're saying what they're saying, not just what.

119 windsagio  Fri, Dec 30, 2011 1:14:42pm

re: #117 oaktree

Though that is generally "dwarf" in the fantasy race sense as compared to "dwarf" in the medical condition sense. Though culturally most of the latter references are still male probably.

Most fantasy writers don't have time for women except for as love interests or villains. "Member of a knobbly side race" doesn't really apply.

120 Simply Sarah  Fri, Dec 30, 2011 1:15:05pm

re: #115 windsagio

It's part of her schtick, which is outrage.

Getting her site closed down is the perfect time to get in the spotlight again and generate those rage-generated hits (website hits that is, gotta be clear).

re: #115 windsagio

It's part of her schtick, which is outrage.

Getting her site closed down is the perfect time to get in the spotlight again and generate those rage-generated hits (website hits that is, gotta be clear).

This is probably all true. It's rather sad, but she does seem completely consumed by all this.

121 Obdicut  Fri, Dec 30, 2011 1:15:58pm

re: #118 Simply Sarah

You're correct in that the language reflects the culture. However, I feel that by making people aware of this, it can help them see the deeper issues from which the language grew.

Maybe. But you've got to make that point, then.

My hope is that by bringing this sort of thing to peoples' attention, they will also think about why they're saying what they're saying, not just what.

I'm sorry, it really doesn't seem like you do that. You generally just say that something-- like using 'harpy'-- is sexist, because only females are harpy and therefore the term is wrong to use. I don't actually see you making the connection with the larger culture.

It's also, I really feel, an endlessly complicated problem. For example, you're using the word 'see' as a synonym for 'understand'. Isn't that prejudiced against blind people? Aren't all sensory-based words leaving out those who lack those senses?

122 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Dec 30, 2011 1:17:46pm

re: #117 oaktree

Though that is generally "dwarf" in the fantasy race sense as compared to "dwarf" in the medical condition sense. Though culturally most of the latter references are still male probably.

This fall, my husband and I read the entirety of "A Song of Ice and Fire". What I love about Martin is that he's written a fantasy novel in which the dwarfs are in the medical condition sense. For whatever reason, when my mind made the link--probably when the second dwarf character showed up--I was deeply satisfied with that.

123 Obdicut  Fri, Dec 30, 2011 1:20:12pm

re: #122 SanFranciscoZionist

Are they like dwarves were in medieval times, kept around for their novelty? There's a great book out there waiting to be written about the history of dwarves; some of them had really huge effects on history, all because for whatever reason monarchs thought they were the shit and had to have them.

124 windsagio  Fri, Dec 30, 2011 1:20:32pm

re: #120 Simply Sarah

It feeds itself, I think.

Really, her saying awful/hateful things and the attention she gets from it are a bit of a feedback loop.

125 Simply Sarah  Fri, Dec 30, 2011 1:20:36pm

re: #121 Obdicut

Maybe. But you've got to make that point, then.

I'm sorry, it really doesn't seem like you do that. You generally just say that something-- like using 'harpy'-- is sexist, because only females are harpy and therefore the term is wrong to use. I don't actually see you making the connection with the larger culture.

It's also, I really feel, an endlessly complicated problem. For example, you're using the word 'see' as a synonym for 'understand'. Isn't that prejudiced against blind people? Aren't all sensory-based words leaving out those who lack those senses?

Well, remember that part of what I've talking about is people making insults based on her looks, which is something that has a very long history of being used to target females especially. The harpy part was just another thing I was bringing up.

As for harpy, I see it in light similar to bitch or s**t or w***e. It seems to play on the sexist concept in our culture which holds women and being shrill, loud, obnoxious, and, you know, shrieking.

126 windsagio  Fri, Dec 30, 2011 1:21:28pm

re: #123 Obdicut

edit: make sure you get to the part where they start acting in costume to hip-hop, for the complete effect.

127 kirkspencer  Fri, Dec 30, 2011 1:22:20pm

re: #118 Simply Sarah

You're correct in that the language reflects the culture. However, I feel that by making people aware of this, it can help them see the deeper issues from which the language grew. If people don't stop and think about why the gendered language reflects badly on cultural ideas, they likely won't think about the cultural ideas, either. My hope is that by bringing this sort of thing to peoples' attention, they will also think about why they're saying what they're saying, not just what.

Yes. Along that... a common phrase in online pvp (player v player) games when someone overwhelms someone else is to describe it as rape -- I raped him, or they raped that poor noob, etc.

The handful of female players I know use this term without thought as well.

I have, in the few games in which I play, made it plain this term bothers me and even why. Most players understand and quit, at least while I'm there. A handful, of course, think it's funny that I'm offended and go full-on sexist. Most of the time nothing happens.

The anecdote that's amusing is the one time I found one of these individuals. A young lower ranked belt at a dojo I used to attend was inviting a friend to join him, and I recognized both the voice and the username. I introduced myself and reiterated I would prefer he no longer use the phrase at least while I was in the same game, preferably never.

Perhaps it was the fact he actually knew the person. Perhaps it was my age that earned the respect. Perhaps it was that I had recently earned my first dan. Whether personalization, respect, or fear, he never again used the term in my presence.

128 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Fri, Dec 30, 2011 1:22:58pm

re: #122 SanFranciscoZionist

This fall, my husband and I read the entirety of "A Song of Ice and Fire". What I love about Martin is that he's written a fantasy novel in which the dwarfs are in the medical condition sense. For whatever reason, when my mind made the link--probably when the second dwarf character showed up--I was deeply satisfied with that.

I do RPG playing in a Arthurian set-up and thus there are dwarves and such in that. Which are in the medical condition sense as well unless a particular GM is digging deeply in the Norse mythology to come up with a weird encounter - which is promptly blamed on the Faerie influence in the area at the time.
;p

One character had a dwarf as one of his squires for a while. That got played for comedy relief now and then. Said squire also got to take heroic action at at least one point as well.

129 Romantic Heretic  Fri, Dec 30, 2011 1:23:30pm

re: #23 SanFranciscoZionist

I do wince when I see these photos, though. I don't think she's eating enough.

Having been married to an alcoholic, I've seen that look before.

130 Obdicut  Fri, Dec 30, 2011 1:25:03pm

re: #125 Simply Sarah

As for harpy, I see it in light similar to bitch or s**t or w***e. It seems to play on the sexist concept in our culture which holds women and being shrill, loud, obnoxious, and, you know, shrieking

That makes it only similar to bitch, then. And I think the word 'shrieking' does that, while the word harpy, to me, connotes a woman who is evil, takes pleasure in the misfortune of others, etc. It definitely is female-gendered, but that doesn't make it misogynistic on its own, unless you think all gendered words are misogynistic.

Did you miss the bit about the word 'see'?

131 windsagio  Fri, Dec 30, 2011 1:25:05pm

re: #127 kirkspencer

online play brings out the worst in everyone, its weird.

Once at a MLG event they mic'd the players in one of the team FPS events (I think it was COD), they'll never do that again. (Lots of 'Kill the N--!')

132 wrenchwench  Fri, Dec 30, 2011 1:27:13pm

re: #85 reine.de.tout

Perhaps time for (more) upkeep.

If personality transplants were available, she'd be a candidate.

133 Simply Sarah  Fri, Dec 30, 2011 1:27:22pm

re: #127 kirkspencer

Yes. Along that... a common phrase in online pvp (player v player) games when someone overwhelms someone else is to describe it as rape -- I raped him, or they raped that poor noob, etc.

The handful of female players I know use this term without thought as well.

I have, in the few games in which I play, made it plain this term bothers me and even why. Most players understand and quit, at least while I'm there. A handful, of course, think it's funny that I'm offended and go full-on sexist. Most of the time nothing happens.

The anecdote that's amusing is the one time I found one of these individuals. A young lower ranked belt at a dojo I used to attend was inviting a friend to join him, and I recognized both the voice and the username. I introduced myself and reiterated I would prefer he no longer use the phrase at least while I was in the same game, preferably never.

Perhaps it was the fact he actually knew the person. Perhaps it was my age that earned the respect. Perhaps it was that I had recently earned my first dan. Whether personalization, respect, or fear, he never again used the term in my presence.

That's part of the reason I tend to only online game with people I know, although even then it can be hard to get them to quit with those kinds of terms with how deeply ingrained they've become. It's a constant battle.

134 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Fri, Dec 30, 2011 1:27:26pm

re: #123 Obdicut

Are they like dwarves were in medieval times, kept around for their novelty? There's a great book out there waiting to be written about the history of dwarves; some of them had really huge effects on history, all because for whatever reason monarchs thought they were the shit and had to have them.

The main one in Song of Fire and Ice is the son of a major nobleman and a major POV character in the novels.

And, incidently enough, the favorite character of a number of people I know who have read the novels to date.

135 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Fri, Dec 30, 2011 1:27:57pm

re: #129 Romantic Heretic

Having been married to an alcoholic, I've seen that look before.

So now we're just gonna make sweeping remarks about the sobriety impaired? I think not!
/

136 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Dec 30, 2011 1:29:22pm

re: #123 Obdicut

Are they like dwarves were in medieval times, kept around for their novelty? There's a great book out there waiting to be written about the history of dwarves; some of them had really huge effects on history, all because for whatever reason monarchs thought they were the shit and had to have them.

Well, one major character is the son of a very powerful noble family, so he's just an embarassment to them. (Also smart, funny, and really tragically screwed up.)

We've seen some in passing who are entertainers, primarily, and now one of those, a young woman, has become a 'real character' in the last book.

137 Targetpractice  Fri, Dec 30, 2011 1:29:32pm

re: #131 windsagio

online play brings out the worst in everyone, its weird.

Once at a MLG event they mic'd the players in one of the team FPS events (I think it was COD), they'll never do that again. (Lots of 'Kill the N--!')

Believe that falls under the purview of the GIFT.

138 Randall Gross  Fri, Dec 30, 2011 1:29:33pm

Meanwhile, over at Wordpress ( I can't recommend a better free blog hosting site,) the usual miscreants are complaining in the forums, so far this thread was closed
[Link: en.forums.wordpress.com...]

139 kirkspencer  Fri, Dec 30, 2011 1:30:52pm

re: #129 Romantic Heretic

Having been married to an alcoholic, I've seen that look before.

Though not married to one, yes, I've seen it as well. Looking at recent pictures, I'd not be surprised to hear of her hitting one of the major catastrophes soon.

I actually rather hope that one of the people with whom she associates gets her into a program. Much as I dislike her in almost every aspect, the end phases of alcoholism are something no one deserves.

140 Romantic Heretic  Fri, Dec 30, 2011 1:31:34pm

re: #80 Simply Sarah

No, no, no. That's completely the wrong mindset to take, especially if you're going after someone for preaching hate. You attack their speech and their bigotry and show why they're wrong. Saying 'anything goes' and attacking them in kind only involves you in spreading hate as well.

What you resist, you become, as the old Taoist saying goes.

141 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Dec 30, 2011 1:32:31pm

re: #134 oaktree

The main one in Song of Fire and Ice is the son of a major nobleman and a major POV character in the novels.

And, incidently enough, the favorite character of a number of people I know who have read the novels to date.

Tyrion is a compelling person. He's one of the few people who can really see how screwed up the entire situation is, and he's got a sense of humor, which is a blessed relief.

(He's also a key witness for many people who insist that Martin is misogynistic schmuck, but that is a different matter.)

142 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Fri, Dec 30, 2011 1:33:30pm

re: #140 Romantic Heretic

I've been resisting the whole 'millionaire' thing for years now. When is this 'Tao' gonna kick in?

143 Simply Sarah  Fri, Dec 30, 2011 1:33:48pm

re: #130 Obdicut

That makes it only similar to bitch, then. And I think the word 'shrieking' does that, while the word harpy, to me, connotes a woman who is evil, takes pleasure in the misfortune of others, etc. It definitely is female-gendered, but that doesn't make it misogynistic on its own, unless you think all gendered words are misogynistic.

Did you miss the bit about the word 'see'?

I did, well, see what you said about the word 'see' and, to be quite honest, I feel like you're being a bit absurd. The term 'see' does not carry the cultural baggage of these other terms. While I want to avoid being ableist, there's a certain point where I need to draw the line. 'See' is simply not grounded in any sort disdain or negative feeling towards blind people.

144 albusteve  Fri, Dec 30, 2011 1:35:00pm

re: #142 Slumbering Behemoth

I've been resisting the whole 'millionaire' thing for years now. When is this 'Tao' gonna kick in?

when you come to a Tao in the road, take it

145 Simply Sarah  Fri, Dec 30, 2011 1:36:01pm

re: #140 Romantic Heretic

What you resist, you become, as the old Taoist saying goes.

This is where I overthink things and point out that means I'll become a racist, sexist, classist, homophobic, transphobic, ableist (I'm sure I'm missed a bunch) asshole.

146 Obdicut  Fri, Dec 30, 2011 1:38:22pm

re: #143 Simply Sarah

I did, well, see what you said about the word 'see' and, to be quite honest, I feel like you're being a bit absurd.

Really? You don't think that having so many words associated with comprehension be linked to senses that some people literally don't have makes them feel like they're outsiders?

The term 'see' does not carry the cultural baggage of these other terms.

Why do you feel that?

While I want to avoid being ableist, there's a certain point where I need to draw the line. 'See' is simply not grounded in any sort disdain or negative feeling towards blind people.

Ah. So the word 'see' meaning 'understand', isn't at all negative towards someone who can't see anything.

Really? I know absolutely it pisses off a blind friend of mine, though he shows it hilariously.

Clueless friend: "See, what I feel--"

Blind friend: "No, no I don't."

But the reason he's speaking up is because the word see actually does bug him.

What I'm saying is that if you decide there's a certain point where you need to draw the line, what is your basis for telling other people where they have drawn the line is incorrect? What is your rationale for where you draw the line?

147 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Fri, Dec 30, 2011 1:38:35pm

re: #145 Simply Sarah

Stereotypes are bad.

148 albusteve  Fri, Dec 30, 2011 1:39:11pm

re: #146 Obdicut

Really? You don't think that having so many words associated with comprehension be linked to senses that some people literally don't have makes them feel like they're outsiders?

Why do you feel that?

Ah. So the word 'see' meaning 'understand', isn't at all negative towards someone who can't see anything.

Really? I know absolutely it pisses off a blind friend of mine, though he shows it hilariously.

Clueless friend: "See, what I feel--"

Blind friend: "No, no I don't."

But the reason he's speaking up is because the word see actually does bug him.

What I'm saying is that if you decide there's a certain point where you need to draw the line, what is your basis for telling other people where they have drawn the line is incorrect? What is your rationale for where you draw the line?

yikes...go have a beer

149 windsagio  Fri, Dec 30, 2011 1:40:40pm

re: #146 Obdicut

dude, seriously. You're doing the 'obdicut thing' again.

Your need to win these internet arguments is a bit much, and more than a little bit strained.

150 Obdicut  Fri, Dec 30, 2011 1:40:41pm

re: #148 albusteve

yikes...go have a beer

Go get me one. Careful with the third flight of stairs, they're uneven.

151 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Fri, Dec 30, 2011 1:40:46pm

re: #121 Obdicut

For example, you're using the word 'see' as a synonym for 'understand'. Isn't that prejudiced against blind people?

Ask 20 blind/non-sighted people, get 20 different answers.

152 wrenchwench  Fri, Dec 30, 2011 1:42:05pm

re: #146 Obdicut

In Stevie Wonder's song "Hey Love", one line is "I hurry to catch your eye..." and I always feel funny when I hear that. Not funny ha-ha, either.

153 God of Binders with Women  Fri, Dec 30, 2011 1:42:30pm

re: #129 Romantic Heretic

Having been married to an alcoholic, I've seen that look before.

Like this?

Image: pam-geller.jpg

154 Targetpractice  Fri, Dec 30, 2011 1:43:58pm

re: #153 Kid A

Like this?

Image: pam-geller.jpg

GAH! Post a warning next time!

/

155 Obdicut  Fri, Dec 30, 2011 1:44:05pm

re: #149 windsagio

Wow, a Windsagio and Steve double! Nifty.

See, I actually mean what I'm saying. It's an interesting point about language; language really does reflect the dominant hiearachy in our society. Language really is ableist, sexist, racist, etc. etc. etc. It's built right into it. It's part of the machinery. You're not going to be able to weed it out. The only way that it will disappear is through people actually changing their attitudes; that will change language, eventually. one way to do this is to call people out on outright sexist or racist bullshit, but it is not helpful to point out the basic genderdness of language, or the light/dark terminology we use, or any of the other inbuilt things.

You may find this boring or uninteresting. But I think it's really interesting to talk about. I'm fully trying to have an actual conversation with Sarah. I don't understand why you think you need to play internet psychologist and claim to understand my motives in posting.

156 wrenchwench  Fri, Dec 30, 2011 1:44:10pm

re: #153 Kid A

Like this?

Image: pam-geller.jpg

That's a scary looking pencil.

157 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Fri, Dec 30, 2011 1:45:40pm

re: #54 SanFranciscoZionist

No, I get what you're saying, and you're right. I will say, though, that she doesn't look like someone who's eating well, sleeping well, or at ease in her skin, and that, I think, has something to do with this hectic lifestyle of hate she seems to be living.

Sometimes, these awful pictures of Pam Geller just make me depressed. She looks so miserable, like a victim of her own self-loathing.

158 wrenchwench  Fri, Dec 30, 2011 1:46:12pm

re: #155 Obdicut

I appreciate your persistence. Except when you're wrong, which you were once.

159 Obdicut  Fri, Dec 30, 2011 1:46:36pm

re: #151 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

Ask 20 blind/non-sighted people, get 20 different answers.

And hell, just the way people think about 'blind' as a duality-- you're either blind or you're not-- shows a total miscomprehension of the reality of the matter. There's lots of different kinds of 'blind' of 'deaf'. My friend who's 'blind' can actually perceive light differences, so he can tell if someone is, for example, waving their hand in front of his face. Some people have the idiotic nerve to tell him he's not 'really blind' because of that.

People. Geez.

160 reloadingisnotahobby  Fri, Dec 30, 2011 1:47:21pm

re: #153 Kid A
That actually made me duck for cover...
Hope everyone has a great weekend and do designate a DRIVER!!
..You know who I'm talking about!!
LOL

161 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Fri, Dec 30, 2011 1:47:25pm

Hmm, I see now that Verizon has backed off on their $2 "convenience fee" less that 24 hours after announcing it.

I guess it was another "trial balloon" to see if the other services would join in jointly milking the consumers for a few more dollars.

162 Obdicut  Fri, Dec 30, 2011 1:47:34pm

re: #158 wrenchwench

I appreciate your persistence. Except when you're wrong, which you were once.

That's nice. I've been wrong a lot, not just once, though.

163 Simply Sarah  Fri, Dec 30, 2011 1:48:51pm

re: #146 Obdicut

Really? You don't think that having so many words associated with comprehension be linked to senses that some people literally don't have makes them feel like they're outsiders?

Why do you feel that?

Ah. So the word 'see' meaning 'understand', isn't at all negative towards someone who can't see anything.

Really? I know absolutely it pisses off a blind friend of mine, though he shows it hilariously.

Clueless friend: "See, what I feel--"

Blind friend: "No, no I don't."

But the reason he's speaking up is because the word see actually does bug him.

What I'm saying is that if you decide there's a certain point where you need to draw the line, what is your basis for telling other people where they have drawn the line is incorrect? What is your rationale for where you draw the line?

All right, I'll do what I really wanted to do originally and concede that 'see' should be avoided in that usage. We have a language based on privilege. I, like all of us, have a long way to go in weeding it out.

164 Targetpractice  Fri, Dec 30, 2011 1:50:30pm

re: #161 oaktree

Hmm, I see now that Verizon has backed off on their $2 "convenience fee" less that 24 hours after announcing it.

I guess it was another "trial balloon" to see if the other services would join in jointly milking the consumers for a few more dollars.

2011 seems to be the year of burst trial balloons. Netflix with the "Qwikster" BS, BofA with the debit card fees, and now Verizon with this.

I'm curious as to why they're putting this stuff out there publicly. Just bury with the other dozen or so "hidden fees" that they've been nickle and diming us with for years.

165 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Fri, Dec 30, 2011 1:50:43pm

re: #159 Obdicut

And hell, just the way people think about 'blind' as a duality-- you're either blind or you're not-- shows a total miscomprehension of the reality of the matter. There's lots of different kinds of 'blind' of 'deaf'. My friend who's 'blind' can actually perceive light differences, so he can tell if someone is, for example, waving their hand in front of his face. Some people have the idiotic nerve to tell him he's not 'really blind' because of that.

People. Geez.

I know. One might think, it's probably difficult enough already.

Then people go and do really ignorant shit like that. "Makes folks hate'cha," like my grandmother used to say.

166 Randall Gross  Fri, Dec 30, 2011 1:51:44pm

re: #151 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

Ask 20 blind/non-sighted people, get 20 different answers.

Seriously. I worked at a Telecommunications Relay Service for the deaf for many years - we had deaf, speech, sight, and other types of disabled people working there and none of the blind ones objected to "sight" verbs or nouns for perceptions, nor did the deaf object to "sound" verbs or nouns for figures of speech. The times I remember getting called out was once when I was trying to learn a bit of ASL & positioned my hand wrong near my face to sign "bitch" instead of "breakfast", and a couple of times when I let my mustache get too long (hard to lip read past a broom....)

167 Obdicut  Fri, Dec 30, 2011 1:52:40pm

re: #163 Simply Sarah

All right, I'll do what I really wanted to do originally and concede that 'see' should be avoided in that usage. We have a language based on privilege. I, like all of us, have a long way to go in weeding it out.

Weeding out is a good metaphor-- because the problem is an organic one. This is the point I was trying to make with the racist terms-- if you weed one out, another one will grow to replace it. You can't get rid of them. They will crop up as long as there are racists. You can make sure they're not in your garden, but getting them out of the language as a whole, removing their power, requires addressing the actual problems. The language may be slightly causative-- but it's nowhere near as causative as actual actions, relationships, etc. Language is far more reflective than determining. As long as the negative relationships and views exist in the culture, the language will grow to describe those relationships and views.

For example, if you ask a student to identify what they race they are on an exam, allowing them to choose the word that they use, black students will do worse on that test. Simply forcing them to identify their race causes, for some reason, a problem, even if you remove the language problem.

It is the thing, not the name of the thing.

168 kirkspencer  Fri, Dec 30, 2011 1:53:30pm

re: #161 oaktree

Hmm, I see now that Verizon has backed off on their $2 "convenience fee" less that 24 hours after announcing it.

I guess it was another "trial balloon" to see if the other services would join in jointly milking the consumers for a few more dollars.

I suspect the fact the FCC said they'd be looking into it had some influence as well.

169 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Fri, Dec 30, 2011 1:54:24pm

re: #167 Obdicut

For example, if you ask a student to identify what they race they are on an exam, allowing them to choose the word that they use, black students will do worse on that test. Simply forcing them to identify their race causes, for some reason, a problem, even if you remove the language problem.

Lol whut?

170 Simply Sarah  Fri, Dec 30, 2011 1:57:53pm

re: #155 Obdicut

Wow, a Windsagio and Steve double! Nifty.

See, I actually mean what I'm saying. It's an interesting point about language; language really does reflect the dominant hiearachy in our society. Language really is ableist, sexist, racist, etc. etc. etc. It's built right into it. It's part of the machinery. You're not going to be able to weed it out. The only way that it will disappear is through people actually changing their attitudes; that will change language, eventually. one way to do this is to call people out on outright sexist or racist bullshit, but it is not helpful to point out the basic genderdness of language, or the light/dark terminology we use, or any of the other inbuilt things.

You may find this boring or uninteresting. But I think it's really interesting to talk about. I'm fully trying to have an actual conversation with Sarah. I don't understand why you think you need to play internet psychologist and claim to understand my motives in posting.

Well, this is where we disagree. For one, it's not that terms are gendered that bothers me per se. Or maybe it is. I can't really seem to figure out my own thoughts on that, to be honest.

That aside, I think that trying to get people to understand how casually they use terms rooted in power and privilege is important to getting them to understand the dynamics behind them. Bring it all out above the surface, rather than letting it lurk below.

Perhaps I'm incorrectly projecting my own thinking onto others here. Perhaps you are doing the same. And yes, it's risky because of this very sort of thing, where you get caught up in if a word is 'OK' or not, rather than getting to the center of the cultural problems.

171 Obdicut  Fri, Dec 30, 2011 1:58:32pm

re: #169 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

Lol whut?

It's called stereotype threat.

172 Gus  Fri, Dec 30, 2011 1:59:17pm

On to Plan B! We shall find an overseas host perhaps in the Ukraine or Russia to avoid detection and the sinister hands of CAIR! We shall be back online and we shall continue to fight Jihadism with my words, er, blog! To victory and beyond!

Derp.

173 Simply Sarah  Fri, Dec 30, 2011 2:01:42pm

re: #167 Obdicut

Weeding out is a good metaphor-- because the problem is an organic one. This is the point I was trying to make with the racist terms-- if you weed one out, another one will grow to replace it. You can't get rid of them. They will crop up as long as there are racists. You can make sure they're not in your garden, but getting them out of the language as a whole, removing their power, requires addressing the actual problems. The language may be slightly causative-- but it's nowhere near as causative as actual actions, relationships, etc. Language is far more reflective than determining. As long as the negative relationships and views exist in the culture, the language will grow to describe those relationships and views.

For example, if you ask a student to identify what they race they are on an exam, allowing them to choose the word that they use, black students will do worse on that test. Simply forcing them to identify their race causes, for some reason, a problem, even if you remove the language problem.

It is the thing, not the name of the thing.

Well, that's why I'm not just trying to weed the terms out, but the thinking. I admit, I do sometimes get the order a bit backwards and that is my own fault. We do, however, still have a strong disagreement on the power of language and terms and words.

174 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Fri, Dec 30, 2011 2:02:05pm

re: #171 Obdicut

It's called stereotype threat.

More like post-hoc error, if you ask me.

175 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Fri, Dec 30, 2011 2:03:36pm

re: #172 Gus 802

On to Plan B! We shall find an overseas host perhaps in the Ukraine or Russia to avoid detection and the sinister hands of CAIR! We shall be back online and we shall continue to fight Jihadism with my words, er, blog! To victory and beyond!

Derp.

rotfl

176 Obdicut  Fri, Dec 30, 2011 2:04:12pm

re: #170 Simply Sarah

That aside, I think that trying to get people to understand how casually they use terms rooted in power and privilege is important to getting them to understand the dynamics behind them. Bring it all out above the surface, rather than letting it lurk below.

It's not just terms rooted in power and privilege, though. It's about identity. "Wimp" is a word that only is an insult to men, really-- it's funny, but the stereotype of women in this case is protective against the insult. "Wimp" is an insult because of gender roles that our culture has, not due to power and/or privilege.

Perhaps I'm incorrectly projecting my own thinking onto others here. Perhaps you are doing the same. And yes, it's risky because of this very sort of thing, where you get caught up in if a word is 'OK' or not, rather than getting to the center of the cultural problems.

See, that's my main complaint. Obviously, we're communicating through a text-based medium, and so talking about language is natural, but to me it always feels like you're saying if we stopped the use of these words we would have a significant effect, and I simply don't believe that's true. I think new words, new phrases would spring up, and it'd turn into an endless rigmarole of chase-the-sexist.

177 b_sharp  Fri, Dec 30, 2011 2:04:38pm

re: #155 Obdicut

Wow, a Windsagio and Steve double! Nifty.

See, I actually mean what I'm saying. It's an interesting point about language; language really does reflect the dominant hiearachy in our society. Language really is ableist, sexist, racist, etc. etc. etc. It's built right into it. It's part of the machinery. You're not going to be able to weed it out. The only way that it will disappear is through people actually changing their attitudes; that will change language, eventually. one way to do this is to call people out on outright sexist or racist bullshit, but it is not helpful to point out the basic genderdness of language, or the light/dark terminology we use, or any of the other inbuilt things.

You may find this boring or uninteresting. But I think it's really interesting to talk about. I'm fully trying to have an actual conversation with Sarah. I don't understand why you think you need to play internet psychologist and claim to understand my motives in posting.

Took the words right out of my brain.

178 b_sharp  Fri, Dec 30, 2011 2:06:57pm

re: #159 Obdicut

And hell, just the way people think about 'blind' as a duality-- you're either blind or you're not-- shows a total miscomprehension of the reality of the matter. There's lots of different kinds of 'blind' of 'deaf'. My friend who's 'blind' can actually perceive light differences, so he can tell if someone is, for example, waving their hand in front of his face. Some people have the idiotic nerve to tell him he's not 'really blind' because of that.

People. Geez.

"If you own an air conditioner you're not poor." It's a basic inability to see grey areas.

179 Gus  Fri, Dec 30, 2011 2:07:29pm

re: #175 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

rotfl

Either or they'll take some time off. Go to the beach. Walk the dog. Read some books. Not likely. I still wonder how these lunatics find the energy to be so negative about one thing just about every single day and for almost 10 years running now. There's something deeply pathological here. I realize they didn't start blogging right after 9/11 but the simmering hatred must have begin there. Could you imagine being around these people in the real world?

180 Obdicut  Fri, Dec 30, 2011 2:08:12pm

re: #179 Gus 802

I do know one guy who all he can talk about is how much he hates the freaking Yankees.

He's pretty boring.

181 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Fri, Dec 30, 2011 2:08:32pm

re: #179 Gus 802

rotfl

Either or they'll take some time off. Go to the beach. Walk the dog. Read some books. Not likely. I still wonder how these lunatics find the energy to be so negative about one thing just about every single day and for almost 10 years running now. There's something deeply pathological here. I realize they didn't start blogging right after 9/11 but the simmering hatred must have begin there. Could you imagine being around these people in the real world?

Oh, I have been. It's a major reason I am a liberal, today. :D

182 Simply Sarah  Fri, Dec 30, 2011 2:15:17pm

re: #176 Obdicut

It's not just terms rooted in power and privilege, though. It's about identity. "Wimp" is a word that only is an insult to men, really-- it's funny, but the stereotype of women in this case is protective against the insult. "Wimp" is an insult because of gender roles that our culture has, not due to power and/or privilege.

See, that's my main complaint. Obviously, we're communicating through a text-based medium, and so talking about language is natural, but to me it always feels like you're saying if we stopped the use of these words we would have a significant effect, and I simply don't believe that's true. I think new words, new phrases would spring up, and it'd turn into an endless rigmarole of chase-the-sexist.

First off, I notice that you're, well, using the very word 'see' you were using as an example before. :P

I would argue that many gender roles are built specifically on enforcing and furthering privilege and power. Men are strong, women are weak, for example.

And I don't think stopping the usage of these terms will fix anything by itself. My major hope is, as I've said, to make people more aware of what they're saying and what it represents. Yes, I don't always do a good job of that, but this time I thought I came to explain my issue with harpy and why it bothered me, along with why going after Geller's looks did the same.

183 b_sharp  Fri, Dec 30, 2011 2:19:34pm

re: #176 Obdicut

It's not just terms rooted in power and privilege, though. It's about identity. "Wimp" is a word that only is an insult to men, really-- it's funny, but the stereotype of women in this case is protective against the insult. "Wimp" is an insult because of gender roles that our culture has, not due to power and/or privilege.

See, that's my main complaint. Obviously, we're communicating through a text-based medium, and so talking about language is natural, but to me it always feels like you're saying if we stopped the use of these words we would have a significant effect, and I simply don't believe that's true. I think new words, new phrases would spring up, and it'd turn into an endless rigmarole of chase-the-sexist.

I've agreed with the majority of things you've said here and I agree that because the idea is not directly addressed by removing a word (other words will indeed replace it) it appears a wasted process, but the vilification or de-normalization of a word is one aspect of de-normalizating the idea. De-normalization is always a multi-generation process so the appearance of the process being ineffectual by focusing on a word is frequently misleading.

184 Simply Sarah  Fri, Dec 30, 2011 2:21:20pm

re: #183 b_sharp

I've agreed with the majority of things you've said here and I agree that because the idea is not directly addressed by removing a word (other words will indeed replace it) the vilification or de-normalization of a word is one aspect of de-normalizating the idea. De-normalization is always a multi-generation process so the appearance of the process being ineffectual by focusing on a word is frequently misleading.

Oh sure. It's neither quick nor easy, but we've got to start sometime, right? Might as well be now if we haven't already!

185 b_sharp  Fri, Dec 30, 2011 2:23:32pm

re: #184 Simply Sarah

Oh sure. It's neither quick nor easy, but we've got to start sometime, right? Might as well be now if we haven't already!

That was my point. It appears useless at first but is still integral to modifying belief systems because our ideas are intricately tied to our language.

186 Obdicut  Fri, Dec 30, 2011 2:28:05pm

re: #182 Simply Sarah

First off, I notice that you're, well, using the very word 'see' you were using as an example before. :P

Yes, because I don't actually think it's necessary or beneficial to avoid using such terms, except in very particular circumstances.

I would argue that many gender roles are built specifically on enforcing and furthering privilege and power. Men are strong, women are weak, for example.

Yeah. That's not what I was talking about. If men are strong, and women are weak, if you're a man who isn't strong, if you're a feminine dude, then you're in trouble. It's not about enforcing power and privlege, it's about enforcing identity roles. It's an important difference. Being born male leads to more innate power and privilege than being born a woman does-- being born male and highly effeminate leads to less. It's not just a structure to ensure one group is favored, it's also to define that group.

And I don't think stopping the usage of these terms will fix anything by itself. My major hope is, as I've said, to make people more aware of what they're saying and what it represents.

But what if they know, but think as I do, that it's an intractable problem of language reflecting culture? What are you achieving if they are aware of the gendered nature of language, but disagree with you that avoiding gendered terms is useful?

187 Obdicut  Fri, Dec 30, 2011 2:30:57pm

re: #183 b_sharp

If you have time, check out the link on 'stereotype threat' above. It shows how deeply ingrained the negative self-views are, but it also shows that these problems can be addressed. But it's also one of the reasons people differentiate themselves from stereotyped groups; it's a coping mechanism.

188 b_sharp  Fri, Dec 30, 2011 2:43:56pm

re: #187 Obdicut

If you have time, check out the link on 'stereotype threat' above. It shows how deeply ingrained the negative self-views are, but it also shows that these problems can be addressed. But it's also one of the reasons people differentiate themselves from stereotyped groups; it's a coping mechanism.

I've heard the term before and I took a quick look at the Wiki article. It reflects (and clarifies) something I've believed since the early '80s.

Avoiding the use of gender specific terms that carry a negative connotation isn't as important as pointing out the idea behind the word is unacceptable. Removing a word outright is something I wouldn't consider, but I do think trying to de-normalize the idea behind a word through de-normalizing the word itself is a part of changing attitudes. But only a part. IMHO, the main push should be education starting in grade school.

189 Obdicut  Fri, Dec 30, 2011 2:48:00pm

re: #188 b_sharp

I think there's an important distinction to be made for words that are misogynistic or otherwise biased on their own-- like pussy, slut, bitch, whore-- and words that happened to be gendered but are not inherently biased-- like thug, witch, harpy, cad-- even if they are negative.

Then there's words like wimp, which really reflect a bias but are so hard to avoid using; how do you connote that someone is complaining disproportionately or not pulling their weight without language-trapping yourself into defining 'strength' as a virtue and 'weakness' as a flaw?

190 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Fri, Dec 30, 2011 3:20:21pm

re: #187 Obdicut

If you have time, check out the link on 'stereotype threat' above. It shows how deeply ingrained the negative self-views are, but it also shows that these problems can be addressed. But it's also one of the reasons people differentiate themselves from stereotyped groups; it's a coping mechanism.

It's just a theory, not fact.

191 Simply Sarah  Fri, Dec 30, 2011 3:30:37pm

re: #186 Obdicut

...
Yeah. That's not what I was talking about. If men are strong, and women are weak, if you're a man who isn't strong, if you're a feminine dude, then you're in trouble. It's not about enforcing power and privlege, it's about enforcing identity roles. It's an important difference. Being born male leads to more innate power and privilege than being born a woman does-- being born male and highly effeminate leads to less. It's not just a structure to ensure one group is favored, it's also to define that group.
...

This is where we also seem to disagree. I see the fact that 'effeminate' men are seen as lesser and being 'masculine' as being positive very much as a power and privilege thing.

192 Romantic Heretic  Fri, Dec 30, 2011 4:26:31pm

re: #134 oaktree

The main one in Song of Fire and Ice is the son of a major nobleman and a major POV character in the novels.

And, incidently enough, the favorite character of a number of people I know who have read the novels to date.

Haven't read the novels, but I just finished watching the first season of the show. Tyrion is my favourite character, hands down.

The rest of his family are inbred monsters with the ethics of the person being discussed in this thread. He's smart and tough, and not completely without redeeming qualities.

I suppose it's because I'm an outsider like him that I identify so much with him.

193 Obdicut  Fri, Dec 30, 2011 6:13:35pm

re: #191 Simply Sarah

This is where we also seem to disagree. I see the fact that 'effeminate' men are seen as lesser and being 'masculine' as being positive very much as a power and privilege thing.

Okay, then I don't really understand what you mean by power and privilege. Whose power?

194 Obdicut  Fri, Dec 30, 2011 6:14:45pm

re: #190 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

It's just a theory, not fact.

It's a theory with some empirical backing. I haven't seen any particular problems with the studies or methodologies. Do you have a particular problem with it?

195 Interesting Times  Fri, Dec 30, 2011 6:27:51pm

re: #191 Simply Sarah

re: #193 Obdicut

I have just the thing to end this argument once and for all.

/

196 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Dec 31, 2011 2:24:10am

re: #194 Obdicut

It's a theory with some empirical backing. I haven't seen any particular problems with the studies or methodologies. Do you have a particular problem with it?

Do you know any actual Black people? Well enough that you can ask something like, "Say, I read this thing on the internet that says you clam up on standardized tests when you're asked your race. Any thoughts or experiences on that?"

Or something. e_e

197 Obdicut  Sat, Dec 31, 2011 2:38:53am

re: #196 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

Yes, I know black people, and I've talked bout it with them. In fact, is was my friend C who told me about it in the first place. I've also talked about it in depth with my friend Diana, who's at my wife's med school and very interested in test-taking and the way outside factors influence performance.

Now, do you have any actual problems with the studies in some way?

198 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Dec 31, 2011 5:01:43am

re: #197 Obdicut

Quit speaking for us, and trotting us out as examples to prove some kind of point. We are perfectly capable of speaking for ourselves.

199 Obdicut  Sat, Dec 31, 2011 5:33:13am

re: #198 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

Quit speaking for us, and trotting us out as examples to prove some kind of point. We are perfectly capable of speaking for ourselves.

Why are you so ridiculous as to ask me if I know any black people, and then try lamely to lambast me for trotting out examples? You asked.

And I'm not 'speaking for you'. For one thing, if you look at the studies-- or what I said-- this is not something that's particular to black people. It's anyone who is under stereotype threat. For another thing, you seem to be saying that nobody should talk about research on the effects of racism except those of those particular races. That's a really insanely pointless attitude.

Why on earth do you posit me talking about the effects of stereotypes on performance as me speaking for black people? Are you just joking or something, pretending to take offense in an obviously bizarre fashion?

200 Dazed  Sun, Jan 1, 2012 4:09:13am

Kudos to Wordpress for ridding that hateful blog..

201 DCMC  Sun, Jan 1, 2012 6:25:38am

The site is back up.. not sure if it was reported on LGF yet

202 Charles Johnson  Sun, Jan 1, 2012 1:18:07pm

re: #201 DCMC

It's only back for a short time at Wordpress so they can copy all their hateful content and move it somewhere else. They're being shut down again in a few days.

203 DCMC  Tue, Jan 3, 2012 1:37:12am

That's good to hear, I think. Dunno why Wordpress wouldn't just remove the site.


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