We Won’t Have Rick Perry to Kick Around Any More

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And now, CNN reports that Rick “Evolution’s Just a Theory” Perry is bailing out, right before yet another pointless GOP “debate.”

Charleston, South Carolina (CNN) - Rick Perry is telling supporters that he will drop his bid Thursday for the Republican presidential nomination, two sources familiar with his plans told CNN.

The Texas governor will make the announcement before the CNN debate in South Carolina, the sources said.

Rick “Family Values” Perry will now endorse Newt “Open Marriage” Gingrich.

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346 comments
1 jamesfirecat  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 10:09:09am

If we can get Gingrich to bail out next Santorum just might have a chance....

2 lawhawk  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 10:09:54am

He's dropped out and is backing Newt. Guess Perry didn't know and didn't care that Gingrich was into open marriages. So much for that vaunted family values candidate the GOP wants to tout.

3 euphgeek  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 10:09:54am

Let's hope it's real this time and he doesn't change his mind after a jog.

4 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 10:10:06am

Okay...now we're up to minimum level of moral fiber, dignity and intelligence.

Why are we even discussing the minimums. I want maximum.

5 Altermite  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 10:11:30am

re: #4 EmmmieG

Okay...now we're up to minimum level of moral fiber, dignity and intelligence.

Why are we even discussing the minimums. I want maximum.

Gingrich.

6 Kragar  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 10:13:45am

And now we're down to 3 (because no one ever counts Ron Paul)

7 NJDhockeyfan  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 10:15:08am

What took so long?

8 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 10:15:17am

re: #5 Altermite

Gingrich.

How dare she tell people what I said! I expect the loyalty from her that I never showed to her.

9 albusteve  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 10:15:54am

re: #7 NJDhockeyfan

What took so long?

the last check just cleared

10 Kragar  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 10:16:20am

re: #7 NJDhockeyfan

What took so long?

Rick Perry was trying to do the math to figure out his chances and never thought to take off his shoes, so it took twice as long.

11 Robert O.  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 10:17:19am

Rick Perry can now head back to a quiet retirement at n-----head ranch. I hope he doesn't let the door hits him on the way out.

12 jamesfirecat  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 10:17:31am

re: #7 NJDhockeyfan

What took so long?

Well it was three things... he had no chance of winning.... it was costing him a lot of money to run and.... uhh.... uh.... give me a moment....

13 Kragar  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 10:18:46am

re: #12 jamesfirecat

Well it was three things... he had no chance of winning... it was costing him a lot of money to run and... uhh... uh... give me a moment...

The Commerce Dept?

14 makeitstop  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 10:19:01am

re: #3 euphgeek

Let's hope it's real this time and he doesn't change his mind after a jog shooting a coyote.

FTFY

15 Robert O.  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 10:20:17am

BTW, I consider this good news. There is only Santorum left to be eliminated from the race. Ron Paul will never quit. The Grinch is furious (an understatement!) and will tear down Romney at any cost like a mad dog. All the GOPers are now ganging up on Romney. Did anyone watch "King of Bain"? Whoah! That was powerful stuff!! If this gets down to three candidates, it could be a long race. Break out the popcorn and soda!

16 Robert O.  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 10:23:09am

There is also a direct analogy between this and the real world. The GOP candidates are spitting venom at each other like mad vipers. Little do they know how much this resembles their dream society: one where it is every creature for itself, eating one's own is acceptable, and only the fittest is allowed to survive.

17 harlequinade  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 10:24:15am

Santorum won Iowa...

[Link: www.pantagraph.com...]

19 makeitstop  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 10:25:43am

re: #18 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Fischer: A Mormon President Threatens the "Spiritual Health" of the Nation

And a serial philanderer, by the look of it, is just fine and dandy.

This is the corner into which the Republicans have painted themselves.

20 albusteve  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 10:28:18am

re: #18 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Fischer: A Mormon President Threatens the "Spiritual Health" of the Nation

spiritual health is a totally made up concept, and has no place in politics...I'm getting real sick of this shit

21 Petero1818  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 10:29:49am

re: #20 albusteve

spiritual health is a totally made up concept, and has no place in politics...I'm getting real sick of this shit

As opposed to the concept of false religion or counterfeit religion as compared to Christianity?

22 Bulworth  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 10:29:52am

Glad someone reminded Perry he couldn't endorse Huntsman....

23 lawhawk  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 10:30:09am

re: #15 Robert O.

You're seriously overstating Newt and Santorum's appeal beyond the socon base. Romney is handily winning FL in all the polls, and should win SC pretty easily as well. The SC polling is all over the place, but leans towards Romney winning (3 polls have Newt winning by a slim margin, while the remaining polls show Romney winning by significant margins).

With both Santorum and Newt fighting for the socon, each will be pressuring the other to drop out - and neither has made a case why they're better than the other sufficient to cause a shift in voter preferences.

If anything, the split still favors Romney and he'll wrap things up in advance of Super Tuesday (March 6). Also, remember that only Paul and Romney are on the ballots in all states - neither Newt nor Santorum are on the VA ballot for example and VA doesn't allow write-in ballots either.

24 Kragar  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 10:30:41am

re: #19 makeitstop

And a serial philanderer, by the look of it, is just fine and dandy.

This is the corner into which the Republicans have painted themselves.

In the past, Fischer has been quite vocal about how Gingrich's past makes him morally unfit to be President. Given the current options, I'm wondering if he'll change his tune.

25 Political Atheist  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 10:32:24am

re: #17 harlequinade

Just another reason why we can easily see it takes far less than widespread fraud to throw an election result from correct to just wrong. What might make elections more accurate? Perhaps knowing who is actually alive, who is really in the district and registered with more certainty sure would help.

(Yes a caucus is a bit different, but close results are not that uncommon)

26 kirkspencer  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 10:32:48am

I know it should have been in the last thread, but
evidence.
evidence.
evidence.

We are about to enter a situation of a divorced couple disagreeing about what was said; one is speaking ill of the other ex. Historically this means we need big salt-shakers.

Unless she has documentation or substantial witnesses, it's nothing.

I believe it's probable given Newt's past history, but that's just my bias speaking. Unless there's something more than her statement the whole thing changes nobody's mind.

27 erik_t  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 10:33:06am

It's always a shame when the funny incompetents drop out before the unfunny incompetents.

28 wrenchwench  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 10:33:45am

re: #2 lawhawk

He's dropped out and is backing Newt. Guess Perry didn't know and didn't care that Gingrich was into open marriages. So much for that vaunted family values candidate the GOP wants to tout.

Perry said he believes in redemption and change. The hundreds of people executed in Texas couldn't hear him though.

29 Amory Blaine  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 10:33:48am

re: #26 kirkspencer

Yeah evidence. Like a birth certificate.

30 zora  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 10:34:59am

re: #18 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Fischer: A Mormon President Threatens the "Spiritual Health" of the Nation

romney will give us spiritual cooties.

31 kirkspencer  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 10:35:02am

re: #29 Amory Blaine

Yeah evidence. Like a birth certificate.

blink.

You mean like the certificate Obama's provided? Or like the one his detractors claim is the "real" one that doesn't exist?

32 Kragar  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 10:35:32am

re: #28 wrenchwench

Perry said he believes in redemption and change. The hundreds of people executed in Texas couldn't hear him though.

He also believes a magic sky man will bring rain and fix the budget if you just ask hard enough.

33 Charles Johnson  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 10:36:54am

What a drag - all the funny wingnuts have now dropped out. All that's left are dreary bigots and Mitt Romney.

34 aagcobb  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 10:37:35am

re: #23 lawhawk

But the three polls with newt ahead were yesterday's; only one poll yesterday favored Romney. It will be interesting to see what effect the "open marriage" statement has on the voting Saturday. Think Newt will get a question about it in the debate?

35 zora  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 10:38:17am

re: #26 kirkspencer

I know it should have been in the last thread, but
evidence.
evidence.
evidence.

We are about to enter a situation of a divorced couple disagreeing about what was said; one is speaking ill of the other ex. Historically this means we need big salt-shakers.

Unless she has documentation or substantial witnesses, it's nothing.

I believe it's probable given Newt's past history, but that's just my bias speaking. Unless there's something more than her statement the whole thing changes nobody's mind.

no one is disputing his ongoing affair with callista while he was married to marianne. what evidence do you want?

36 harlequinade  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 10:38:46am

re: #25 Rightwingconspirator

Well, I was pointing it out because now Romney didn't do the first and win both Iowa and New Hampshire. And Santorum can claim to be the man who could beat Romney.

And with the endorsements flying at Newt, does that open the race up again?

37 wrenchwench  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 10:38:55am

re: #26 kirkspencer

I know it should have been in the last thread, but
evidence.
evidence.
evidence.

We are about to enter a situation of a divorced couple disagreeing about what was said; one is speaking ill of the other ex. Historically this means we need big salt-shakers.

Unless she has documentation or substantial witnesses, it's nothing.

I believe it's probable given Newt's past history, but that's just my bias speaking. Unless there's something more than her statement the whole thing changes nobody's mind.

When it's a case of he said-she said, people look at the characters of the people speaking. They don't know Marianne. They know Newt. You're right, it won't change anyone's mind. If they like Newt, they'll dismiss her. If they already think Newt is scum, they'll believe her.

38 Decatur Deb  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 10:38:56am

re: #26 kirkspencer

I know it should have been in the last thread, but
evidence.
evidence.
evidence.

We are about to enter a situation of a divorced couple disagreeing about what was said; one is speaking ill of the other ex. Historically this means we need big salt-shakers.

Unless she has documentation or substantial witnesses, it's nothing.

I believe it's probable given Newt's past history, but that's just my bias speaking. Unless there's something more than her statement the whole thing changes nobody's mind.

Do you know many Bible-quoting Baptists?

39 kirkspencer  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 10:39:02am

re: #35 zora

no one is disputing his ongoing affair with callista while he was married to marianne. what evidence do you want?

An affair is not a request/demand for an open marriage.

40 aagcobb  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 10:39:11am

re: #35 zora

no one is disputing his ongoing affair with callista while he was married to marianne. what evidence do you want?

Evidence that he actually asked wife #2 for an open marriage, rather than simply acting as though he was in an open marriage.

41 Amory Blaine  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 10:39:49am

re: #39 kirkspencer

Sooo...which is worse?

42 Kragar  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 10:40:07am

re: #33 Charles

What a drag - all the funny wingnuts have now dropped out. All that's left are dreary bigots and Mitt Romney.

And we have another debate tonight on top of that.

Maybe they can invite Colbert.

43 lawhawk  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 10:40:20am

re: #33 Charles

There wasn't anything funny about Cain, Bachmann, or Perry's campaigning. They were incredibly incompetent and ill-prepared to campaign for President. Yes, some of the things they said were humorous and ripe for satire, but it's really sad that they were in a position to even be considered capable of running for president.

It really is a thin bench that the GOP has to work with. And it will get thinner as they promote an ever more extreme agenda that is moving well out-of-step with most Americans and is already outside the scientific consensus on everything from global warming and the environment to evolution and science education.

44 kirkspencer  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 10:41:35am

re: #41 Amory Blaine

Sooo...which is worse?

For Newt? Proof of the request for an open marriage.

The affair's political price has been paid, the other hasn't. He's "repented" of the former, but hid the latter (if it happened).

45 Political Atheist  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 10:41:36am

re: #36 harlequinade

The next state or two will sort that out. But see what the consequences were-Mitt got undeserved momentum. Santorum got undeserved resistance.

46 Charles Johnson  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 10:42:07am

re: #25 Rightwingconspirator

Just another reason why we can easily see it takes far less than widespread fraud to throw an election result from correct to just wrong. What might make elections more accurate? Perhaps knowing who is actually alive, who is really in the district and registered with more certainty sure would help.

(Yes a caucus is a bit different, but close results are not that uncommon)

I am utterly opposed to "voter ID" laws. The "problem" they're supposed to address is simply not real. And the true reason why the GOP is pushing so hard for these laws is very simple: because they will disproportionately affect minorities, who tend to vote Democratic.

It's a political ploy, nothing more, designed to gain an advantage for Republicans.

47 Amory Blaine  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 10:42:41am

To me, going behind my wifes back and fucking another woman would be way worse, character wise, than asking for her permission for an open marriage.

48 sagehen  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 10:43:03am

re: #26 kirkspencer

I know it should have been in the last thread, but
evidence.
evidence.
evidence.

We are about to enter a situation of a divorced couple disagreeing about what was said; one is speaking ill of the other ex. Historically this means we need big salt-shakers.

Unless she has documentation or substantial witnesses, it's nothing.

I believe it's probable given Newt's past history, but that's just my bias speaking. Unless there's something more than her statement the whole thing changes nobody's mind.

Fighting her tooth and nail over the property division, refusing to pay child support, her having to get a court order for him to pay the electric and heating bill so his kids could live in the 20th century, their church taking up a canned-goods collection so Marianne could feed the girls because Newt wouldn't part with a penny... that's all part of the court record. With lots and lots of witnesses under oath.

49 kirkspencer  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 10:43:10am

re: #25 Rightwingconspirator

Just another reason why we can easily see it takes far less than widespread fraud to throw an election result from correct to just wrong. What might make elections more accurate? Perhaps knowing who is actually alive, who is really in the district and registered with more certainty sure would help.

(Yes a caucus is a bit different, but close results are not that uncommon)

That argument would have more strength if the reason for the change was ID error.

50 Petero1818  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 10:43:42am

re: #40 aagcobb

Evidence that he actually asked wife #2 for an open marriage, rather than simply acting as though he was in an open marriage.

You don't get evidence of this. She is merely telling her story. You can choose to believe her or not. The facts are, he was having an affair, and he was around that time leading the charge against Clinton for doing the same. A divorce and a public shaming over the affair was going to be politically damaging. I have no trouble believing he would have tried to do anything to prevent that from happening. I find it hard to believe that on the balance of probabilities, most American's would take Newt's word over hers.

51 makeitstop  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 10:43:48am

re: #33 Charles

What a drag - all the funny wingnuts have now dropped out. All that's left are dreary bigots and Mitt Romney.

Who is trying his hardest to look like a dreary bigot.

52 zora  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 10:44:08am

re: #40 aagcobb

Evidence that he actually asked wife #2 for an open marriage, rather than simply acting as though he was in an open marriage.

yeah, i don't know that i would call a plea to let him have a mistress an open marriage. i doubt she would have been allowed to have a lover. gingrich comes off as an cheating asshole in both scenarios.

53 lawhawk  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 10:44:40am

re: #34 aagcobb

Except that you've got polls from the last four days days, and all but three show Romney ahead. The interesting case is that Rasmussen has two polls in that time frame (1/18 and 1/16) has Gingrich making a significant move, taking a bit of support away from everyone else - particularly Santorum. Romney is ahead of Gingrich 35/21 in the 1/16 poll, but then Gingrich bounces ahead 33/31 in the 1/18 poll. Both of those polls have a MOE of 4.

54 Talking Point Detective  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 10:47:05am

re: #53 lawhawk

Except that you've got polls from the last four days days, and all but three show Romney ahead. The interesting case is that Rasmussen has two polls in that time frame (1/18 and 1/16) has Gingrich making a significant move, taking a bit of support away from everyone else - particularly Santorum. Romney is ahead of Gingrich 35/21 in the 1/16 poll, but then Gingrich bounces ahead 33/31 in the 1/18 poll. Both of those polls have a MOE of 4.

Hard to see how Gingrich isn't going to have a serious hitch in his stride once the statements from his ex-wife gather steam.

My guess is that his goose is cooked. Evangelicals don't generally look favorably upon open marriages.

[Link: nbcpolitics.msnbc.msn.com...]

55 aagcobb  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 10:47:08am

re: #53 lawhawk

Except that you've got polls from the last four days days, and all but three show Romney ahead. The interesting case is that Rasmussen has two polls in that time frame (1/18 and 1/16) has Gingrich making a significant move, taking a bit of support away from everyone else - particularly Santorum. Romney is ahead of Gingrich 35/21 in the 1/16 poll, but then Gingrich bounces ahead 33/31 in the 1/18 poll. Both of those polls have a MOE of 4.

One might argue that the reason most of yesterday's polls showed Gingrich ahead was because he did much better in the last debate than Romney. I expect that there will be heavy push polling today and tomorrow to make sure all the SC voters know about the "open marriage" accusation.

56 kirkspencer  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 10:47:16am

re: #47 Amory Blaine

To me, going behind my wifes back and fucking another woman would be way worse, character wise, than asking for her permission for an open marriage.

I agree. But that's personal. I'm talking political, for Newt.

His rat-ba$t'ness is well-known (see re: #48 sagehen), but it's old news. He took the fundamentalist path of acknowledging his sins and (allegedly) repenting of them.

This is new. And it means he lied in his repentance. That breaks the fundamentalist contract; -- you can have done many sins, but you must honestly repent. If you lied about the commission, hiding or minimizing part of them, then you did not truly repent.

Politically, IF it can be shown to be true, it is worse for Newt.

57 Decatur Deb  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 10:47:43am

re: #53 lawhawk

Except that you've got polls from the last four days days, and all but three show Romney ahead. The interesting case is that Rasmussen has two polls in that time frame (1/18 and 1/16) has Gingrich making a significant move, taking a bit of support away from everyone else - particularly Santorum. Romney is ahead of Gingrich 35/21 in the 1/16 poll, but then Gingrich bounces ahead 33/31 in the 1/18 poll. Both of those polls have a MOE of 4.

The thing about an MOE is that it is based on the inherent statistical error in a putatively well-designed honest poll. Rasmussen has a history.

58 Talking Point Detective  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 10:49:06am

re: #25 Rightwingconspirator

Just another reason why we can easily see it takes far less than widespread fraud to throw an election result from correct to just wrong. What might make elections more accurate? Perhaps knowing who is actually alive, who is really in the district and registered with more certainty sure would help.

(Yes a caucus is a bit different, but close results are not that uncommon)

How many people have you ever met who are willing to face serious jail time for casting a vote in an election?

How many cases of documented election fraud have you heard about?

59 Tumulus11  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 10:50:08am
According to the partial transcript, Marianne Gingrich said Gingrich and Callista conducted their affair “in my bedroom in our apartment in Washington."

"He always called me at night," she said, "and always ended with 'I love you.' Well, she was listening."
// ABC News

. I picture Newt with a wink and a smirk for Callista as he says 'I love you' to his wife. What a louse.

60 lawhawk  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 10:50:32am

re: #55 aagcobb

Absolutely. The accusations right before the election day are going to be real tough for Newt to counter.

61 Decatur Deb  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 10:51:16am

re: #58 Talking Point Detective

How many people have you ever met who are willing to face serious jail time for casting a vote in an election?

How many cases of documented election fraud have you heard about?

Well, there was this geek in a pimp-suit in New Hampshire...

62 Talking Point Detective  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 10:51:41am

re: #60 lawhawk

Absolutely. The accusations right before the election day are going to be real tough for Newt to counter.

Yeah - but I'm sure that Romney's campaign had nothing to do with the timing.

Heh.

63 Political Atheist  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 10:52:02am

re: #46 Charles

Glad you brought that up.
I totally agree it has been taken there by the GOP. An unwelcome distortion of the process there But that is only one dimension of the problem.

Charles, I just maintain that these close results are events screaming for more accuracy in the process. There is a variety of ways to do that. If the news was right-900 dead people voted recently, and the state AG is investigating. I applaud that effort.

As I have said, if we first push ID out to those who lack it, we help them in many ways apart from being able to vote. Then you can apply ID fairly, without bouncing voters out.

It's a darn shame any and every effort to promote sharpening the accuracy of the process is so quickly assumed to be tied to the national GOP.

One exception-Years ago the California state GOP tried to get this done on a pretty fair basis, including funding free ID for the poor. The Dems said no to that. Which IMO was an opportunity lost for those poor folks stuck using check cashing services instead of banks. I would like to see the committee members involved explain that one.

64 Feline Fearless Leader  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 10:52:49am

Another Program is eliminated on the GOP Grid. And yet TRON PAUL endures!
/

65 wrenchwench  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 10:54:37am

re: #63 Rightwingconspirator

Charles, I just maintain that these close results are events screaming for more accuracy in the process. There is a variety of ways to do that. If the news was right-900 dead people voted recently, and the state AG is investigating. I applaud that effort.

That 'if' is bigger than the font allows here. Please do post when there is confirmation of the allegation.

66 Charles Johnson  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 10:54:43am

re: #63 Rightwingconspirator

If someone is actually willing to face federal felony charges and serious prison time to commit vote fraud, what makes you think they'd be stopped by having to show an ID?

67 erik_t  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 10:55:35am

re: #64 oaktree

Another Program is eliminated on the GOP Grid. And yet TRON PAUL endures!
/

He fights for the losers.

68 Talking Point Detective  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 10:56:33am

re: #55 aagcobb

One might argue that the reason most of yesterday's polls showed Gingrich ahead was because he did much better in the last debate than Romney. I expect that there will be heavy push polling today and tomorrow to make sure all the SC voters know about the "open marriage" accusation.

I can imagine this question:

"So, you've indicated you're deeply religious. Given that, how do you feel, hypothetically, about someone who has cheated on his wife and asked her to enter into an open marriage, where he could continue to commit adultery without serving penance for his sins. Some evangelicals have criticized the candidate Newt Gingrich for asking his ex-wife for an open marriage. On a scale of 1 to 10, would you say that a hypothetical candidate who wanted an open marriage, should, 1, burn in hell for eternity or 10, be elected to the most powerful office in the world?"

69 Kragar  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 10:56:36am

re: #66 Charles

If someone is actually willing to face federal felony charges and serious prison time to commit vote fraud, what makes you think they'd be stopped by having to show an ID?

Because that would be against the law!

70 Feline Fearless Leader  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 10:56:38am

re: #66 Charles

If someone is actually willing to face federal felony charges and serious prison time to commit vote fraud, what makes you think they'd be stopped by having to show an ID?

Far easier and probably cheaper to work that sort of magic on the far side of the ballot box.

71 Petero1818  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 10:56:57am

I am curious what that constitutional amendment is going to look like on the defense of marriage under President Gingrich. That is going to be some tricky drafting.

72 aagcobb  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 10:57:16am

re: #64 oaktree

Another Program is eliminated on the GOP Grid. And yet TRON PAUL endures!
/

He is going to the Convention, Baby! Abolish the Fed!

73 Decatur Deb  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 10:57:47am

re: #66 Charles

If someone is actually willing to face federal felony charges and serious prison time to commit vote fraud, what makes you think they'd be stopped by having to show an ID?

Voter ID fraud could be a small leak in the boat. Untraceable hackable voting machines will tear the bottom out

74 kirkspencer  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 10:58:12am

re: #71 Petero1818

I am curious what that constitutional amendment is going to look like on the defense of marriage under President Gingrich. That is going to be some tricky drafting.

Nah. Ex Post Facto clause saves him.

75 aagcobb  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 10:58:30am

re: #71 Petero1818

I am curious what that constitutional amendment is going to look like on the defense of marriage under President Gingrich. That is going to be some tricky drafting.

A marriage is one man, one woman, and as many mistresses as you can afford.

76 Petero1818  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 10:59:12am

re: #75 aagcobb

A marriage is one man, one woman, and as many mistresses as you can afford.

I guess we now know exactly what the credit line at Tiffany's was about.

77 Decatur Deb  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 10:59:14am

re: #75 aagcobb

A marriage is one man, one woman, and as many mistresses as you can afford.

Like our Christian Founding Fathers intended.

78 Talking Point Detective  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 10:59:14am

re: #66 Charles

If someone is actually willing to face federal felony charges and serious prison time to commit vote fraud, what makes you think they'd be stopped by having to show an ID?

As they say in the blogosphere, the stoopid, it burns.

79 CuriousLurker  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 11:00:00am

re: #66 Charles

If someone is actually willing to face federal felony charges and serious prison time to commit vote fraud, what makes you think they'd be stopped by having to show an ID?

Bogus voter ID cards would go on sale the same day the first authentic ones rolled of the press.

80 blueraven  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 11:00:37am

re: #25 Rightwingconspirator

Just another reason why we can easily see it takes far less than widespread fraud to throw an election result from correct to just wrong. What might make elections more accurate? Perhaps knowing who is actually alive, who is really in the district and registered with more certainty sure would help.

(Yes a caucus is a bit different, but close results are not that uncommon)

This kerfuffle was the result of human error and a flawed process, it had nothing to do with any real or imagined voter fraud.

81 Political Atheist  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 11:01:08am

re: #66 Charles

If someone is actually willing to face federal felony charges and serious prison time to commit vote fraud, what makes you think they'd be stopped by having to show an ID?

I have little experience with the white collar felons mindset, except that we see people do what they are confident they can get away with.Givem the anonymous vote syteme we must have it's hard to convict people on this.

Perhaps we would agree taking fair minded steps to reduce the error margin is a good idea? The real debate is how.

To me voter id efforts showed a larger more important problem. The poor and elderly need good ID. Not having it hurts them. Then we might look at good ways to fix the registration rolls fairly.

82 erik_t  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 11:01:19am

re: #79 CuriousLurker

Bogus voter ID cards would go on sale the same day the first authentic ones rolled of the press.

No, I'm pretty sure I learned in college that identification documents are impossible to forge by anyone short of the KGB or CIA.

83 Varek Raith  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 11:01:31am

re: #25 Rightwingconspirator

Just another reason why we can easily see it takes far less than widespread fraud to throw an election result from correct to just wrong. What might make elections more accurate? Perhaps knowing who is actually alive, who is really in the district and registered with more certainty sure would help.

(Yes a caucus is a bit different, but close results are not that uncommon)

Voter ID wouldn't have prevented the Iowa mess up.
;)

84 Eventual Carrion  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 11:01:44am

re: #18 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Fischer: A Mormon President Threatens the "Spiritual Health" of the Nation

Traitor bastard. Why does this person not believe in our guiding principals?

Article 6, paragraph 3 - Constitution of the United States:

"The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the Members of the several State Legislatures, and all executive and judicial Officers, both of the United States and of the several States, shall be bound by Oath or Affirmation, to support this Constitution; but no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States."

85 Decatur Deb  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 11:02:00am

re: #79 CuriousLurker

Bogus voter ID cards would go on sale the same day the first authentic ones rolled of the press.

ID cards are bullet-proof. That's why none of the kids at Panama City Beach smoke or drink.

86 Political Atheist  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 11:02:04am

re: #80 blueraven

This kerfuffle was the result of human error and a flawed process, it had nothing to do with any real or imagined voter fraud.

Thank you. Lets fix the process.

87 aagcobb  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 11:02:07am

re: #82 erik_t

No, I'm pretty sure I learned in college that identification documents are impossible to forge by anyone short of the KGB or CIA.

Or an undocumented immigrant looking for work.

88 sagehen  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 11:02:09am

re: #58 Talking Point Detective

How many people have you ever met who are willing to face serious jail time for casting a vote in an election?

How many cases of documented election fraud have you heard about?

Talking Points Memo actually looked into this... more people were struck by lightning in the last 20 years than were proved to have committed voter fraud.

89 CuriousLurker  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 11:02:17am

re: #82 erik_t

No, I'm pretty sure I learned in college that identification documents are impossible to forge by anyone short of the KGB or CIA.

Oh, right. I forgot, heh. ;)

90 Kragar  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 11:02:21am

Faking the dead for Voter fraud depends on several factor to work:

1) The dead person isn't removed from the voting rolls prior to the election.
2) Enough dead people are available to make this a viable option to swing an election
3) You have enough people willing to commit voter fraud to pose as the dead people, and are all willing to be prosecuted for Voter fraud if they get caught. Plus, said fraudsters would need to cast their own ballots as well.
4) None of your people committing Voter fraud ever talk about it and expose the conspiracy.

Now lets go out and win a National Election guys!

91 Political Atheist  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 11:02:39am

re: #83 Varek Raith

Voter ID wouldn't have prevented the Iowa mess up.
;)

Do I really need to cite the close elections we have wrangled over? I hope not.

92 Varek Raith  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 11:02:48am

re: #88 sagehen
Talking Points Memo actually looked into this... more people were struck by lightning in the last 20 years than were proved to have committed voter fraud.

93 Feline Fearless Leader  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 11:03:02am

re: #82 erik_t

No, I'm pretty sure I learned in college that identification documents are impossible to forge by anyone short of the KGB or CIA.

You forgot the "//". I recall "experts" with a good pen and Whiteout modifying driver licenses in order to get youts like me into bars.

94 Petero1818  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 11:03:29am

re: #81 Rightwingconspirator

I have little experience with the white collar felons mindset, except that we see people do what they are confident they can get away with.Givem the anonymous vote syteme we must have it's hard to convict people on this.

Perhaps we would agree taking fair minded steps to reduce the error margin is a good idea? The real debate is how.

To me voter id efforts showed a larger more important problem. The poor and elderly need good ID. Not having it hurts them. Then we might look at good ways to fix the registration rolls fairly.

I don't know the right way to do it, but to pretend that there are not those out there scheming to commit voter fraud in the United States is to be willfully blind at the least. With so much riding on it, I guarantee there are sophisticated schemes in the works as we speak. likely from both sides of the political spectrum.

95 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 11:03:33am

re: #19 makeitstop

And a serial philanderer, by the look of it, is just fine and dandy.

This is the corner into which the Republicans have painted themselves.

Bryan Fischer doesn't care what people have DONE, he just cares what team they're on.

96 Feline Fearless Leader  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 11:03:46am

re: #86 Rightwingconspirator

Thank you. Lets fix the process.

Guess you need to take that up with the Iowa GOP.

97 Kragar  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 11:04:07am

re: #92 Varek Raith

Talking Points Memo actually looked into this... more people were struck by lightning in the last 20 years than were proved to have committed voter fraud.

But if they successfully committed the crime, then we would never know, because they were never charged.
/

98 wrenchwench  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 11:04:13am

re: #81 Rightwingconspirator

Perhaps we would agree taking fair minded steps to reduce the error margin is a good idea? The real debate is how.

I would not agree. The error margin is so low right now that it will be completely eclipsed by potential votes lost because of the voter suppression measures being pushed exclusively by Republicans.

99 Varek Raith  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 11:04:30am

re: #91 Rightwingconspirator

Do I really need to cite the close elections we have wrangled over? I hope not.

Do I need to repeat that voter ID would not have prevented the Iowa mess up?

100 blueraven  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 11:05:26am

re: #86 Rightwingconspirator

Thank you. Lets fix the process.

That's fine, but it had nothing to do with voter fraud. Voter IDs would have made no difference at all.

101 Iwouldprefernotto  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 11:05:57am

He may be out of the race, but he's still an idiot.

102 Talking Point Detective  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 11:06:30am

re: #63 Rightwingconspirator

It's a darn shame any and every effort to promote sharpening the accuracy of the process is so quickly assumed to be tied to the national GOP.

Except that's not what's happening. The attempt from the GOP to push voter ID has nothing to do with sharpening the accuracy of the process. And the GOP is staunchly in opposition to such efforts - such as election day voter registration (there are many) - that would actually have beneficial results.

103 albusteve  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 11:07:00am

the greater fraud is after the vote and the winner takes office...consider me a bit jaded

104 blueraven  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 11:11:50am

re: #94 Petero1818

I don't know the right way to do it, but to pretend that there are not those out there scheming to commit voter fraud in the United States is to be willfully blind at the least. With so much riding on it, I guarantee there are sophisticated schemes in the works as we speak. likely from both sides of the political spectrum.

If you believe that, then you should also believe there is a big effort in voter suppression. A practice that is actually easier to accomplish on a wide scale.
Voting is a right, not a privilege as some would have it.

105 Political Atheist  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 11:12:15am

re: #98 wrenchwench

I would not agree. The error margin is so low right now that it will be completely eclipsed by potential votes lost because of the voter suppression measures being pushed exclusively by Republicans.

Okay so we are so confident in the very same process that gave us people guessing at a voters intent with dimpled chads as accurate enough to not need to be fixed. Well the close ones are the reasons to fix it.

And it's too bad the GOPs efforts to further distort the process have made it so difficult to address from another point of view, that of reducing error. The GOP is half responsible for that. The other half of that lies with those who just can't conversationally separate a fair effort from an unfair one.

Is that how we failed to have a funded push of ID in California to the needy? I have to wonder if it is. I do not think we have nearly as accurate a system as we deserve.

106 Kragar  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 11:12:51am

Washington Catholic Conference thinks if gay marriage is legalized, straight couples will stop having children

Legislation has been introduced in Washington State to change the current law defining marriage. The present law states: “marriage is a civil contract between a male and a female…” This same law also prohibits marriage to close-blood relations, a clear indication that the definition of marriage is related to bringing children into the world and the continuation of the human race. The legislation to redefine marriage, therefore, is not in the public interest. [...]

Upholding the present definition of marriage does not depend on anyone’s religious beliefs. Washington State’s present law defining marriage as “a civil contract between a male and a female” is grounded not in faith, but in reason and the experience of society. It recognizes the value of marriage as a bond of personal relationships, but also in terms of the unique and irreplaceable potential of a man and woman to conceive and nurture new life, thus contributing to the continuation of the human race. A change in legislation would mean that the state would no longer recognize the unique sacrifices and contributions made by these couples, thereby adding to the forces already undermining family life today.

107 JeffM70  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 11:12:56am

re: #94 Petero1818

I don't know the right way to do it, but to pretend that there are not those out there scheming to commit voter fraud in the United States is to be willfully blind at the least. With so much riding on it, I guarantee there are sophisticated schemes in the works as we speak. likely from both sides of the political spectrum.

Why don't you present evidence of this mass effort to commit voter fraud? Fraud isn't the major problem, it's voter suppression tactics like voter id, robocalls giving wrong voting date, flyers giving the wrong voting location, etc. There are plenty instances of voter suppression, not so much voter fraud.

108 Varek Raith  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 11:13:26am

IIRC, the GOP exempted those in the Iowa caucuses from having to show ID...

109 Talking Point Detective  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 11:14:00am

re: #94 Petero1818

I don't know the right way to do it, but to pretend that there are not those out there scheming to commit voter fraud in the United States is to be willfully blind at the least. With so much riding on it, I guarantee there are sophisticated schemes in the works as we speak. likely from both sides of the political spectrum.

Of course people are scheming to rig the system on a massive scale

It's called "lobbying."

110 recusancy  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 11:14:07am

re: #105 Rightwingconspirator

Okay so we are so confident in the very same process that gave us people guessing at a voters intent with dimpled chads as accurate enough to not need to be fixed. Well the close ones are the reasons to fix it.

And it's too bad the GOPs efforts to further distort the process have made it so difficult to address from another point of view, that of reducing error. The GOP is half responsible for that. The other half of that lies with those who just can't conversationally separate a fair effort from an unfair one.

Is that how we failed to have a funded push of ID in California to the needy? I have to wonder if it is. I do not think we have nearly as accurate a system as we deserve.

How does having an ID fix the dimpled chads problem?

111 Political Atheist  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 11:14:28am

re: #100 blueraven

That's fine, but it had nothing to do with voter fraud. Voter IDs would have made no difference at all.

That's an easy assertion to make given that it has not yet been well attempted. Please note i did not limit my contention to fraud. It's fraud, and crappy registration oversight and questionable technology/ vote card handling.

112 albusteve  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 11:15:11am

re: #106 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Washington Catholic Conference thinks if gay marriage is legalized, straight couples will stop having children

jeezus, what a bunch of idiots....where do you even find this crazy shit?...they sit there fondling their rosary beads claiming to know the unknowable

113 Big Steve  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 11:15:19am

re: #98 wrenchwench

I would not agree. The error margin is so low right now that it will be completely eclipsed by potential votes lost because of the voter suppression measures being pushed exclusively by Republicans.

Not exclusively.....Jimmy Carter co-chaired the Commission on Federal Election Reform which recommended voter identification.
Commission on Federal Election Reform

114 lawhawk  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 11:15:30am

BTW, The Eye of Sauron approves of Perry endorsing Gingrich. All is going according to plan. /

115 Political Atheist  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 11:15:41am

re: #110 recusancy

I'm not limiting my point to ID either. As per #111

The total error margin is too big. Time to narrow it.

116 Petero1818  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 11:15:57am

re: #104 blueraven

If you believe that, then you should also believe there is a big effort in voter suppression. A practice that is actually easier to accomplish on a wide scale.
Voting is a right, not a privilege as some would have it.

I absolutely believe that there is a big effort in voter suppression, which is equally abhorrent. While voting is a right and not a privilege, the state also has an obligation to do everything its power to maintain the fairness of elections. Because it is not just voting that is a right and not a privilege, it is the right to vote in a fair election without fraud.

117 Feline Fearless Leader  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 11:16:29am

re: #114 lawhawk

BTW, The Eye of Sauron approves of Perry endorsing Gingrich. All is going according to plan. /

Kang/Kodos 2016. Obama has paved the way.
/

118 Feline Fearless Leader  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 11:17:30am

re: #116 Petero1818

I absolutely believe that there is a big effort in voter suppression, which is equally abhorrent. While voting is a right and not a privilege, the state also has an obligation to do everything its power to maintain the fairness of elections. Because it is not just voting that is a right and not a privilege, it is the right to vote in a fair election without fraud.

In some countries it is a requirement to vote in elections.

(Edit. Added link)
[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

119 Petero1818  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 11:17:42am

re: #109 Talking Point Detective

Of course people are scheming to rig the system on a massive scale

It's called "lobbying."

That is the "legal" method. There are also plenty employing less evil but more illegal means.

120 albusteve  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 11:18:27am

re: #114 lawhawk

BTW, The Eye of Sauron approves of Perry endorsing Gingrich. All is going according to plan. /

me thinks you should lay off the pipe-weed of the Shire

121 Decatur Deb  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 11:19:24am

re: #114 lawhawk

BTW, The Eye of Sauron approves of Perry endorsing Gingrich. All is going according to plan. /

Thanks, new wallpaper.

122 Political Atheist  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 11:19:30am

re: #110 recusancy

How does having an ID fix the dimpled chads problem?

What that points out is what you get in really close elections. And why you might want them to be more accurate. Not having dimpled chads would have been good for example. How can you make one of those without stacking cards in the machine anyway? I never saw that duplicated with just one card in a machine.

123 Political Atheist  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 11:20:39am

Oh crap. Duty calls. Someday I'm going to page this, just because we have let the GOP define the problem in our minds. that alone is worth the effort.

BBL

124 Sol Berdinowitz  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 11:21:13am

re: #106 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Churches are free to define Holy Matrimony any way they wish. But marriage is a civil contract and cannot be denied due to race or gender.

125 Charles Johnson  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 11:21:16am

re: #105 Rightwingconspirator

Okay so we are so confident in the very same process that gave us people guessing at a voters intent with dimpled chads as accurate enough to not need to be fixed. Well the close ones are the reasons to fix it.

And it's too bad the GOPs efforts to further distort the process have made it so difficult to address from another point of view, that of reducing error. The GOP is half responsible for that. The other half of that lies with those who just can't conversationally separate a fair effort from an unfair one.

Is that how we failed to have a funded push of ID in California to the needy? I have to wonder if it is. I do not think we have nearly as accurate a system as we deserve.

I can't agree. The GOP is totally, wholly responsible for attempting to suppress minority voters with bogus, unnecessary, and probably un-Constitutional "voter ID" laws. The only purpose for these initiatives is to gain a political advantage for the Republican Party, period.

This tactic worked for many years in the South to suppress the African American vote, and they're trying to resurrect it by drumming up completely fake outrage over nonexistent problems.

126 Petero1818  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 11:21:21am

re: #118 oaktree

In some countries it is a requirement to vote in elections.

Yeah, I am not big on that idea. The last thing I want is people who can't think for themselves or don't care enough on their own being forced to go to the polls. Invariably they can be too easily influenced by others, usually whomever screams the loudest.

127 recusancy  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 11:21:26am

re: #123 Rightwingconspirator

Oh crap. Duty calls. Someday I'm going to page this, just because we have let the GOP define the problem in our minds. that alone is worth the effort.

BBL

You seem to agree with the GOP.

128 blueraven  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 11:21:58am

re: #111 Rightwingconspirator

That's an easy assertion to make given that it has not yet been well attempted. Please note i did not limit my contention to fraud. It's fraud, and crappy registration oversight and questionable technology/ vote card handling.

How do we stop voter suppression? Actual crimes with convictions, like this?

[Link: www.washingtonmonthly.com...]

Show me where there have been widespread voter fraud convictions.

129 Sol Berdinowitz  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 11:22:57am

re: #125 Charles

I would support voter ID regulations if they were made free and easily available to all. Anything else is going to result in de facto suppression of voting rights.

130 Kragar  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 11:23:22am

re: #124 ralphieboy

Churches are free to define Holy Matrimony any way they wish. But marriage is a civil contract and cannot be denied due to race or gender.

Except their argument is claiming by allowing legal same sex marriage, the human race will collapse because people will stop having children.

131 Amory Blaine  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 11:23:29am

re: #125 Charles

You should see the circus the GOP is building here with their bullshit charges that the recall signatures are fraudulant. (Wisconsin)

132 Sol Berdinowitz  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 11:23:51am

re: #118 oaktree

In some countries it is a requirement to vote in elections.

(Edit. Added link)
[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

I would support a law that makes it illegal to complain about any elected official unless you can prove that you voted in the last election.

/

133 Eventual Carrion  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 11:24:33am

re: #106 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Washington Catholic Conference thinks if gay marriage is legalized, straight couples will stop having children

Could only help relieve our pressure on the earths natural resources and useable land and food. Sounds good to me. Knock it off breeders.

134 lawhawk  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 11:24:40am

re: #120 albusteve

Why are you harshing on my mellow? /Bilbo Baggins 2012!

135 Sol Berdinowitz  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 11:24:46am

re: #130 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Except their argument is claiming by allowing legal same sex marriage, the human race will collapse because people will stop having children.

The same argument should then apply to adultery and extramarital sex. Which these people would also like to outlaw...

136 Feline Fearless Leader  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 11:25:39am

re: #126 Petero1818

Yeah, I am not big on that idea. The last thing I want is people who can't think for themselves or don't care enough on their own being forced to go to the polls. Invariably they can be too easily influenced by others, usually whomever screams the loudest.

That's one of the "cons" to using that process. Though arguably having a civic duty might also make people pay more attention to the candidates and issues.

In any case this method is one potential way to deal with the voter suppression issue.

137 Kragar  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 11:26:02am

re: #134 lawhawk

Why are you harshing on my mellow? /Bilbo Baggins 2012!

Youtube Video
138 Talking Point Detective  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 11:26:28am

re: #113 Big Steve

Not exclusively...Jimmy Carter co-chaired the Commission on Federal Election Reform which recommended voter identification.
Commission on Federal Election Reform

With provisional ballots easily used and verified, and ombudsmen appointed to "respond expeditiously" to any citizen complaints. No one is barred, outright, from voting.

Do the GOP-backed voter ID laws contain such provisions?

139 Decatur Deb  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 11:26:43am

re: #131 Amory Blaine

You should see the circus the GOP is building here with their bullshit charges that the recall signatures are fraudulant. (Wisconsin)

Rejoice--it just means they're pre-excusing the loss.

140 recusancy  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 11:27:02am

re: #136 oaktree

That's one of the "cons" to using that process. Though arguably having a civic duty might also make people pay more attention to the candidates and issues.

In any case this method is one potential way to deal with the voter suppression issue.

National holiday so people don't have to work on election day would be the biggest help.

141 lawhawk  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 11:27:05am

re: #137 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Thanks. My mellow has now been sufficiently harshed.

142 Petero1818  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 11:27:28am

re: #136 oaktree

That's one of the "cons" to using that process. Though arguably having a civic duty might also make people pay more attention to the candidates and issues.

In any case this method is one potential way to deal with the voter suppression issue.

Yes it would deal with that. Quite effectively.

143 Feline Fearless Leader  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 11:27:40am

re: #132 ralphieboy

I would support a law that makes it illegal to complain about any elected official unless you can prove that you voted in the last election.

/

Exemption for those living outside said officials district? We have to leave some room for the foreign Lizards.

144 Talking Point Detective  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 11:27:44am

re: #132 ralphieboy

I would support a law that makes it illegal to complain about any elected official unless you can prove that you voted in the last election.

/

The libertarian blogosphere would evaporate over night.

145 Kragar  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 11:29:09am

re: #141 lawhawk

Thanks. My mellow has now been sufficiently harshed.

Glad to be of service.

146 albusteve  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 11:29:48am

re: #134 lawhawk

Why are you harshing on my mellow? /Bilbo Baggins 2012!

forgot about that movie...I'll happily pay to go see it

147 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 11:30:02am

Any idea how many years a person has to spend in hell for quitting a race god told them to run?
/

148 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 11:30:34am

re: #47 Amory Blaine

To me, going behind my wifes back and fucking another woman would be way worse, character wise, than asking for her permission for an open marriage.

Agreed, except that I'm not sure that what he was asking for was an open marriage, so much as free rein for himself. Did he entertain the idea that she might also take lovers?

Also, given the kind of shit he was talking at the time and continues to talk, about other people's moral failings--and I bet he WOULD include open marriages among them...

Ah, what the hell. Newt is Newt.

149 Romantic Heretic  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 11:30:43am

re: #4 EmmmieG

Okay...now we're up to minimum level of moral fiber, dignity and intelligence.

Why are we even discussing the minimums. I want maximum.

Because candidates with a high level of intelligence make most voters feel inadequate. They're not the sort of person you want to have a beer with.

A woman once said to Adlai Stevenson, "You'll get the vote of every thinking person in America.

To which he replied, "Unfortunately, I need a majority.

150 Olsonist  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 11:30:55am

The purpose of voter ID laws is to impede minority voters from voting.

If a precinct worker wants to stuff the box voter ID laws do nothing. If voter ID laws weren't a Republican effort to reduce minority participation (which they are) then the Republicans wouldn't be opposed to motor voter registration.

This is an affront to democracy. But that's ok because Republicans really care.

151 jaunte  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 11:31:08am

re: #147 Slumbering Behemoth

Perry still has his "Not Perfect, Just Forgiven" bumper sticker.

152 Charles Johnson  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 11:32:46am

re: #113 Big Steve

The voter ID recommendation in that document looks nothing like what is now being pushed by the GOP in many states. There's a reason why the Justice Department blocked South Carolina's voter ID law -- because it was designed from the start to suppress minority voting.

153 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 11:33:07am

re: #54 Talking Point Detective

Hard to see how Gingrich isn't going to have a serious hitch in his stride once the statements from his ex-wife gather steam.

My guess is that his goose is cooked. Evangelicals don't generally look favorably upon open marriages.

[Link: nbcpolitics.msnbc.msn.com...]

Evangelicals traditionally haven't looked favorably on Catholics who've been married three times, either. All traditional bets seem to be off at this point.

154 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 11:33:14am

re: #151 jaunte

God made me perfect. All this... I fucked up on my own.
/

155 kirkspencer  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 11:33:31am

The problem with a voter ID boils down to the inherent burdens in obtaining it.

Take the rollout of Georgia's voter ID requirement. They made it free, and sent out special vans to assist in registration.

In roughly 15 counties the vans only went to the county seat. Reality check: if they can't get to the county seat for the regular ID, how are they going to get to the van at the same general location?

The average travel distance necessary to get to one of the vans was 20 miles. It had to be done on one of the six days (three non-consecutive pairs of days) the van was scheduled.

And the applicant had to bring all required paperwork at the time. If they did not, they had to bring the followup paperwork to the main registration site.

So the "free and easy" voter ID system for Georgia turned out to be burdensome for (or exclude) those people who had difficulty getting IDs in the first place.

156 Kragar  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 11:33:39am

Limbaugh Audience: Asking your wife's permission to cheat is a mark of character

LIMBAUGH: I got a great note from a friend of mine. “So Newt wanted an open marriage. BFD. At least he asked his wife for permission instead of cheating on her. That’s a mark of character, in my book. Newt’s a victim. We all are. Ours is the horniest generation.” [...] That’s from a good friend of mine, “Newt’s slogan ought to, ‘Hell, yes, I wanted it.’” (laughing) I’m sharing with you how some people are reacting to this.

157 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 11:35:45am

re: #156 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Newt’s a victim.

You owe me a new monitor.

158 _RememberTonyC  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 11:35:59am

obvious, but somehow appropriate ...

Youtube Video
159 Charles Johnson  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 11:38:11am

Here's an article I read way back when, that demonstrates clearly the dishonesty behind the GOP's continual attempts to incite fear over nonexistent voter fraud: The incredible, disappearing American Center for Voting Rights.

It didn't start in this election. The Republican Party has been angling for a way to suppress minority voting for many years, and this is just the latest chapter.

160 Kragar  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 11:38:11am

re: #157 Slumbering Behemoth

You owe me a new monitor.

I got ya.

Youtube Video
161 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 11:38:26am

re: #158 _RememberTonyC

You don't need to be in the pew every Sunday to know there's something wrong in this country when people can post music videos from openly gay artists but our kids can't openly celebrate Christmas or pray in school.
/

162 garhighway  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 11:38:48am

re: #63 Rightwingconspirator

Glad you brought that up.
I totally agree it has been taken there by the GOP. An unwelcome distortion of the process there But that is only one dimension of the problem.

Charles, I just maintain that these close results are events screaming for more accuracy in the process. There is a variety of ways to do that. If the news was right-900 dead people voted recently, and the state AG is investigating. I applaud that effort.

As I have said, if we first push ID out to those who lack it, we help them in many ways apart from being able to vote. Then you can apply ID fairly, without bouncing voters out.

It's a darn shame any and every effort to promote sharpening the accuracy of the process is so quickly assumed to be tied to the national GOP.

One exception-Years ago the California state GOP tried to get this done on a pretty fair basis, including funding free ID for the poor. The Dems said no to that. Which IMO was an opportunity lost for those poor folks stuck using check cashing services instead of banks. I would like to see the committee members involved explain that one.

Saying the process requires "more accuracy" implies that there is currently meaningful inaccuracy that would be addressed by voter ID. That case has not been made, and in fact, everything I read indicates that the opposite case HAS been made: that there is no meaningful inaccuracy problem that voter ID would fix.

The burden of proof is on the proponents here, and they have failed to meet it.

163 jaunte  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 11:38:53am

re: #156 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

It's a mark of a certain kind of character, it's true.

164 Vicious Babushka  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 11:39:22am

re: #90 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Faking the dead for Voter fraud depends on several factor to work:

1) The dead person isn't removed from the voting rolls prior to the election.
2) Enough dead people are available to make this a viable option to swing an election
3) You have enough people willing to commit voter fraud to pose as the dead people, and are all willing to be prosecuted for Voter fraud if they get caught. Plus, said fraudsters would need to cast their own ballots as well.
4) None of your people committing Voter fraud ever talk about it and expose the conspiracy.

Now lets go out and win a National Election guys!

You forgot: people who moved out of the district years ago, but were never removed from the voting lists even though they are currently registered somewhere else.

166 Eventual Carrion  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 11:42:26am

re: #165 Summer

The Guardian: Newt Gingrich: I would ignore supreme court as president

Then at least we could have an impeachment for a valid reason.

167 _RememberTonyC  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 11:42:40am

re: #161 Slumbering Behemoth

You don't need to be in the pew every Sunday to know there's something wrong in this country when people can post music videos from openly gay artists but our kids can't openly celebrate Christmas or pray in school.
/

Wait ... Freddie Mercury was gay?! Next thing you know, people will say Liberace was too /

168 garhighway  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 11:44:38am

re: #165 Summer

The Guardian: Newt Gingrich: I would ignore supreme court as president

Running against the Supreme Court is a pretty common theme in GOP primaries.

169 Talking Point Detective  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 11:44:46am

re: #153 SanFranciscoZionist

Evangelicals traditionally haven't looked favorably on Catholics who've been married three times, either. All traditional bets seem to be off at this point.

I think there's a qualitative difference. Gingrich seems to have compensated at least to some degree for the reaction to multiple marriages. I don't think it will be nearly as easy for him to marginalize opposition to wanting an "open marriage" or the other stuff in that interview. And this is happening in real-time, which limits his ability to spin with his rationalizations.

Pure speculation on my part, no doubt. Many things in the political arena are effectively spun in ways I can't predict.

170 Eventual Carrion  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 11:44:52am

re: #167 _RememberTonyC

Wait ... Freddie Mercury was gay?! Next thing you know, people will say Liberace was too /

At least I can hold onto my Rock Hudson/Debbie Reynolds memories from days of old when things were sane and normal.

171 Talking Point Detective  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 11:47:05am

re: #159 Charles

Here's an article I read way back when, that demonstrates clearly the dishonesty behind the GOP's continual attempts to incite fear over nonexistent voter fraud: The incredible, disappearing American Center for Voting Rights.

It didn't start in this election. The Republican Party has been angling for a way to suppress minority voting for many years, and this is just the latest chapter.

ACORN!!!!

172 Lidane  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 11:50:08am

re: #168 garhighway

Running against the Supreme Court reality is a pretty common theme in GOP primaries.

FTFY ;)

173 _RememberTonyC  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 11:52:11am

We have discussed many times how the GOP has turned in a strange "tea party inspired" direction. But if the likes of Perry, Cain, and Bachmann are dropping out, can one make the argument that the primary voters are turning away from their brand of extremism? And if that is the case, can the argument be made that if a relative centrist like Romney gets the nomination, maybe the party isn't as whacko-dominated as we think?

174 Amory Blaine  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 11:52:53am

Skyrim My Little Pony Dragon Mod

Youtube Video
175 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 11:53:43am

re: #156 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

I'm sure this is entirely consistent with the Limbaugh audience's take on the Clinton business, right?


Image: HatZE.jpg

176 jamesfirecat  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 11:54:32am

re: #173 _RememberTonyC

We have discussed many times how the GOP has turned in a strange "tea party inspired" direction. But if the likes of Perry, Cain, and Bachmann are dropping out, can one make the argument that the primary voters are turning away from their brand of extremism? And if that is the case, can the argument be made that if a relative centrist like Romney gets the nomination, maybe the party isn't as whacko-dominated as we think?

Romney keeps getting out voted by the combined wacko vote, its just that the whackos keep being split among different candidates be they liberterian whackos or socon whackos, wake me when Mitt gets 51% of his party's vote or above...

177 erik_t  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 11:54:41am

re: #173 _RememberTonyC

We have discussed many times how the GOP has turned in a strange "tea party inspired" direction. But if the likes of Perry, Cain, and Bachmann are dropping out, can one make the argument that the primary voters are turning away from their brand of extremism? And if that is the case, can the argument be made that if a relative centrist like Romney gets the nomination, maybe the party isn't as whacko-dominated as we think?

I think it's a strong case that Perry/Cain/Bachmann are individually whacko. But given that the primary electorate kept turning to the next whacko rather than Romney, until there were no whackos left... I don't think it can be seen as an encouraging data point WRT the direction of the GOP in general.

178 Charles Johnson  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 11:55:00am

re: #173 _RememberTonyC

We have discussed many times how the GOP has turned in a strange "tea party inspired" direction. But if the likes of Perry, Cain, and Bachmann are dropping out, can one make the argument that the primary voters are turning away from their brand of extremism? And if that is the case, can the argument be made that if a relative centrist like Romney gets the nomination, maybe the party isn't as whacko-dominated as we think?

Romney will get the nomination because he's next in line. It's been pre-ordained. But please note that in every one of his positions, he's moved WAY to the right. If the party wasn't "whacko-dominated," why did he do this?

I still wish one of these lame debate moderators would ask the candidates about evolution - because I'd be willing to bet that Romney will now waffle on that too. He has to.

179 Feline Fearless Leader  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 11:55:27am

re: #172 Lidane

FTFY ;)

The GOP artificial reality lives in fear of David Warner arriving with the Logic Probe.

180 William of Orange  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 11:56:39am

He's got some time on his hand now. Maybe he can join Betty White's team.

Youtube Video

You're in for a shock. This is going to be a massive NBC hit series. The format comes from Belgium and over here in Belgium and the Netherlands "Benidorm Bastards" was a big hit.

181 Talking Point Detective  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 11:58:07am

re: #178 Charles

Romney will get the nomination because he's next in line. It's been pre-ordained. But please note that in every one of his positions, he's moved WAY to the right. If the party wasn't "whacko-dominated," why did he do this?

I still wish one of these lame debate moderators would ask the candidates about evolution - because I'd be willing to bet that Romney will now waffle on that too. He has to.

Maybe he'll be asked that question in presidential debates with Obama.

182 Political Atheist  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 11:58:11am

re: #58 Talking Point Detective

How many people have you ever met who are willing to face serious jail time for casting a vote in an election?

How many cases of documented election fraud have you heard about?

Okay you are asking me for anecdotal, which is pretty questionable. But fraudulent votes were proven in the case of Dornan vs Sanchez. Just 9in that case) not enough to overturn the result. But if that had been closer, what then?

How many times are election results within error margins? On that many occasions we may as well have flipped a coin.

183 Feline Fearless Leader  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 11:59:16am

Hmm. Is anyone seeing an issue with the hamsters powering Wikipedia?

184 aagcobb  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 12:00:25pm

re: #147 Slumbering Behemoth

Any idea how many years a person has to spend in hell for quitting a race god told them to run?
/

God is a Romney backer; he told all those others to run so they'd split the socon vote.

185 lawhawk  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 12:00:33pm

re: #181 Talking Point Detective

You'd get a different answer in the general election debates than one given during the GOP primaries. In the primaries, the candidates have to kowtow to the right wing/socons who form the core of the voting in the GOP primaries.

It's a different dynamic in the general election, where the candidates both know that they can count on their party support, but are trying to peel off independent/moderates from each other or that bloc of undecided voters.

That's why it would be good to hear someone ask the question now - and then again in the general. It would show how that dynamic plays out - and how religion is trumping science as far as the GOP is concerned.

186 Talking Point Detective  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 12:02:37pm

re: #182 Rightwingconspirator

Okay you are asking me for anecdotal, which is pretty questionable. But fraudulent votes were proven in the case of Dornan vs Sanchez. Just 9in that case) not enough to overturn the result. But if that had been closer, what then?

How many times are election results within error margins? On that many occasions we may as well have flipped a coin.

I don't know the details of the case you've mentioned, but the details in the cases I've seen examined more deeply show that it's things like immigrants not knowing the laws and voting in two places - not intent to vote fraudulently to change the outcome of an election. Very, very, very few people would risk serious jail time to cast a vote in an election, and as Charles and others point out, voter ID law would make no difference with someone that motivated.

My perspective is that the magnitude of the problem simply doesn't justify the GOP efforts. There are other, far more important and effective ways to improve voting authenticity. And the GOP efforts will likely, in balance, reduce voting in constituencies that traditionally vote Democratic.

187 blueraven  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 12:03:28pm

re: #182 Rightwingconspirator

Okay you are asking me for anecdotal, which is pretty questionable. But fraudulent votes were proven in the case of Dornan vs Sanchez. Just 9in that case) not enough to overturn the result. But if that had been closer, what then?

How many times are election results within error margins? On that many occasions we may as well have flipped a coin.

The truth about voter fraud...eeek!

Image: matson041607.jpg

188 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 12:04:08pm

re: #173 _RememberTonyC

We have discussed many times how the GOP has turned in a strange "tea party inspired" direction. But if the likes of Perry, Cain, and Bachmann are dropping out, can one make the argument that the primary voters are turning away from their brand of extremism? And if that is the case, can the argument be made that if a relative centrist like Romney gets the nomination, maybe the party isn't as whacko-dominated as we think?

My tinfoil conspiracy hypothesis* is that the nutjob candidates are there to make the "real" candidates seem less extreme, crazy, and/or moronic by comparison. Their purpose is to make Romney seem like a centrist.


* it only becomes a full-fledged theory when I have a book to sell...

189 Olsonist  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 12:04:58pm

The last time I checked, South Carolina is in the South and Newt Gingrich sounds like the Southern boy he is to all the other Southern boys in the South. Mittens on the other hand sounds like the Northern Ritchie Rich he is to Southerners. And South Carolina is just plain whack. I think the ex-wife gets the big yawn from the base and Gingrich wins it.

Florida though is less whack. If Gingrich wins SC and even does well in FLA, Mittens, to say the least, is in for a long fight against a nasty opponent. Hillary wasn't nasty. She was tough and she did Obama the favor of defining him before the Republicans could even get a chance. Gingrich is just going to damage Mittens. Fun to watch.

Still, I think we're beginning to see the limits of the Tea Party's power in the GOP. They're a vocal minority. They can play the king maker but the can't force their candidate on the national level. Locally, they can and do in the House and some Senate races (Tenn, Utah, ...). Boehner is probably really tired of Cantor right about now.

TPM beat me to it.

190 Talking Point Detective  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 12:05:08pm

re: #182 Rightwingconspirator

Okay you are asking me for anecdotal, which is pretty questionable. But fraudulent votes were proven in the case of Dornan vs Sanchez. Just 9in that case) not enough to overturn the result. But if that had been closer, what then?

How many times are election results within error margins? On that many occasions we may as well have flipped a coin.

You must have a link that has more updated info than this:

WASHINGTON — Defeated Rep. Robert K. Dornan (R-Garden Grove) renewed his allegations Thursday that "hundreds" of noncitizens and undocumented immigrants cast illegal ballots in last year's election, but he failed to provide any concrete evidence or new leads in 12 pages of sworn written testimony submitted to the congressional committee investigating the dispute.

191 aagcobb  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 12:05:49pm

re: #173 _RememberTonyC

We have discussed many times how the GOP has turned in a strange "tea party inspired" direction. But if the likes of Perry, Cain, and Bachmann are dropping out, can one make the argument that the primary voters are turning away from their brand of extremism? And if that is the case, can the argument be made that if a relative centrist like Romney gets the nomination, maybe the party isn't as whacko-dominated as we think?

But what does it say about the party that Romney has moved from the center to the far Right on every single issue in order to secure the nomination?

192 _RememberTonyC  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 12:07:14pm

re: #178 Charles

Romney will get the nomination because he's next in line. It's been pre-ordained. But please note that in every one of his positions, he's moved WAY to the right. If the party wasn't "whacko-dominated," why did he do this?

I still wish one of these lame debate moderators would ask the candidates about evolution - because I'd be willing to bet that Romney will now waffle on that too. He has to.

I agree that Romney will get the nomination. I also agree that he has moved to the right on many key issues. Your point is extremely well taken that he did it because he needed to get conservative voters to believe in him. But I get the sense that once he locks up the nomination, he will move back towards the center, which is where I think his heart is. Very few of us live the first 45 years of our lives believing in certain core values and all of a sudden change overnight out of pure conviction. Romney made some calculations and held his nose while pandering for votes. In a general election where he needs Democrats and independents, I feel he will do what all politicians do and tack back to the center, which is his natural habitat. That said, I could be totally wrong too. And the way I will determine that is by evaluating his VP pick. He has to balance the ticket by taking someone who will help him in his "soft" states. But if he were to select Santorum because he feels he needs help in Pennsylvania, that will backfire with independents and moderates like myself.

193 erik_t  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 12:08:32pm

re: #192 _RememberTonyC

Heart? Core values? Pure conviction?

I'm impressed you could type that with a straight face.

194 Talking Point Detective  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 12:09:40pm

re: #173 _RememberTonyC

We have discussed many times how the GOP has turned in a strange "tea party inspired" direction. But if the likes of Perry, Cain, and Bachmann are dropping out, can one make the argument that the primary voters are turning away from their brand of extremism? And if that is the case, can the argument be made that if a relative centrist like Romney gets the nomination, maybe the party isn't as whacko-dominated as we think?

I've thought about that also. Except that you need to look at the whole party in context. Have there ever been as many extremist Republicans in office? Has there ever been a slate of candidates that, on the whole, is so fringe?

I'd say definitively not.

195 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 12:10:25pm

re: #174 Amory Blaine

So why do they look like dragons from afar?

196 Amory Blaine  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 12:10:31pm

Yeah those formative years are a bitch.

Image: cn_image.size.romneybain.jpg

197 Political Atheist  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 12:10:41pm

re: #186 Talking Point Detective

I'm not as attched to the fraud issue. It's no coincidence that fair minded measures reduce inaccuracies from many causes. Which to me is just fine. But for an illegal immigrant to even register let alone vote and claim ignorance gives me great pause. What other laws might slip their mind?

198 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 12:11:37pm

re: #92 Varek Raith

Talking Points Memo actually looked into this... more people were struck by lightning in the last 20 years than were proved to have committed voter fraud.

Clearly, we need to...uh...issue ID cards for lightning bolts, so we can prosecute them...

This isn't working.

199 Talking Point Detective  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 12:11:57pm

re: #197 Rightwingconspirator

I'm not as attched to the fraud issue. it's no coincidence that sensible fair minded measures reduce inaccuracies from many causes. Which to me is just fine. But for an illegal immigrant to even register let alone vote and claim ignorance gives me great pause. What other laws might slip their mind?

Note - I did not say illegal immigrant.

200 Amory Blaine  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 12:13:15pm

re: #195 Sergey Romanov

So why do they look like dragons from afar?

IDK

201 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 12:14:45pm

re: #200 Amory Blaine

IDK

"Idiotic Development Kit"? Right, I thought so!

///

202 Talking Point Detective  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 12:15:45pm

re: #197 Rightwingconspirator

I'm not as attched to the fraud issue. it's no coincidence that sensible fair minded measures reduce inaccuracies from many causes. Which to me is just fine. But for an illegal immigrant to even register let alone vote and claim ignorance gives me great pause. What other laws might slip their mind?

Say you're an illegal immigrant, faced with the potential for deportation. What is the likelihood that you're going to show up at the polling booth to cast a vote for either a Republican or Democratic candidate?

Even if you think it is far more likely than I think (I think it doesn't happen), you need to view your estimate in context. Which is more likely, an illegal immigrant voting or a legit citizen not voting because of an ID requirement.

How many legit votes per illegal immigrant vote are you willing to cast off? You have to consider the net impact.

203 aagcobb  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 12:17:03pm

Based on the latest polls (taken before the "open marriage" story broke), Nate Silver says Newt and Romney are even money to win SC.

204 erik_t  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 12:17:09pm

Jeeze. Any chance we can hire this illegal immigrant to teach his new countrymen how to give a shit about their own political process?

205 Political Atheist  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 12:17:35pm

re: #199 Talking Point Detective
Okay forget their status.

In California, former Republican Rep. Robert K. Dornan was defeated by Democrat Loretta Sanchez by 984 votes in the 1996 election. State officials found that at least 300 votes were cast illegally by non-citizens.

The task force of two Republicans and one Democrat recommended dismissal of Dornan's complaint after lead GOP investigator John Kelliher reported that his staff could find only 748 tainted votes, more than 200 short of Sanchez's 979-vote victory margin. Democratic investigators noted that it was impossible to tell for whom the tainted ballots were cast.
[Link: www.washingtonpost.com...]

206 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 12:18:32pm

re: #190 Talking Point Detective

You must have a link that has more updated info than this:

[Link: articles.cnn.com...]

Task force Chairman Vernon J. Ehlers, RMich., said investigators hadfound concrete evidence of 748 illegal votes by noncitizens, not enough tothrow Sanchezs victory into doubt.

207 Olsonist  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 12:18:56pm

re: #197 Rightwingconspirator

I'm not as attched to the fraud issue. it's no coincidence that sensible fair minded measures reduce inaccuracies from many causes. Which to me is just fine. But for an illegal immigrant to even register let alone vote and claim ignorance gives me great pause. What other laws might slip their mind?

Fine. We'll take that at face value. But does a system that impedes minority participation on a grand scale give you similar pause? If an illegal immigrant voting offends your sense of fair play, does denying a minority the right to vote offend your sense of justice?

Again the intent of these laws is to deny minorities the right to vote. It's the modern equivalent of the Literacy Tests.

208 _RememberTonyC  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 12:19:08pm

re: #194 Talking Point Detective

I've thought about that also. Except that you need to look at the whole party in context. Have there ever been as many extremist Republicans in office? Has there ever been a slate of candidates that, on the whole, is so fringe?

I'd say definitively not.

I still believe a lot of it is regional. Up here in New England, the Republicans tend to be more moderate because kooks like Ron Paul would never win an election spouting that sort of extremism.

209 kirkspencer  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 12:19:08pm

re: #182 Rightwingconspirator

Okay you are asking me for anecdotal, which is pretty questionable. But fraudulent votes were proven in the case of Dornan vs Sanchez. Just 9in that case) not enough to overturn the result. But if that had been closer, what then?

How many times are election results within error margins? On that many occasions we may as well have flipped a coin.

The House majority said there were 624 illegal votes. The minority pointed out that the INS said the database error rate was 50%, and that over half the voters showed themselves as legal and valid in the subsequent election. Even the majority report showed that:
a) there was no evidence of collusion or conspiracy (as charged by Dornan); and
b) even at the worst there was no chance the overall vote result was invalid.

Frankly, I think you're asking the wrong question when you ask how many times are results within error margins. The more applicable question is how many times do close results (within error margins) include significant (influencing result) voter fraud.

210 makeitstop  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 12:19:28pm

re: #189 Olsonist

TPM beat me to it.

They simply cannot work up any outrage for this. Now, if it was a Democrat, things would be much different and their sensibilities would most certainly be offended.

211 recusancy  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 12:21:15pm

re: #173 _RememberTonyC

We have discussed many times how the GOP has turned in a strange "tea party inspired" direction. But if the likes of Perry, Cain, and Bachmann are dropping out, can one make the argument that the primary voters are turning away from their brand of extremism? And if that is the case, can the argument be made that if a relative centrist like Romney gets the nomination, maybe the party isn't as whacko-dominated as we think?

Romney is no centrist. He's far to the right of Bush.

212 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 12:21:49pm

re: #106 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Washington Catholic Conference thinks if gay marriage is legalized, straight couples will stop having children

Ah, so banning close-kin marriages is now seen as proof that the purpose of marriage is to produce children.

Oy.

213 Talking Point Detective  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 12:22:13pm

re: #206 Sergey Romanov

[Link: articles.cnn.com...]

Thanks for that link.

My guess is that the claims are bogus. How many people were prosecuted for voting illegally? The claim is that evidence of illegal voting was confirmed - but yet no prosecutions resulted? Doesn't pass the smell test.

214 Political Atheist  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 12:22:33pm

re: #207 Olsonist

Fine. We'll take that at face value. But does a system that impedes minority participation on a grand scale give you similar pause? If an illegal immigrant voting offends your sense of fair play, does denying a minority the right to vote offend your sense of justice?

Again the intent of these laws is to deny minorities the right to vote. It's the modern equivalent of the Literacy Tests.

Did you not read my posts up thread? Please. Plus your question rejects the premise that a fair minded improvement effort could happen. I reject that thought as strongly as I reject deliberate disenfranchisement.

Do you reject out of hand the value of more accurate results in close election results?

215 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 12:22:48pm

re: #213 Talking Point Detective

Thanks for that link.

My guess is that the claims are bogus. How many people were prosecuted for voting illegally? The claim is that evidence of illegal voting was confirmed - but yet no prosecutions resulted? Doesn't pass the smell test.

Or the system doesn't work.

216 goddamnedfrank  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 12:23:10pm

re: #189 Olsonist

TPM beat me to it.

That is one seriously scary photograph of Calista. She looks like Katherine Helmond did towards the end of Brazil.

217 ElCapitanAmerica  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 12:23:52pm

Rick Perry, I already miss you.

Rick, remember when you forgot what government agencies you wanted to close?

"I can't ... the third one I can't. Oops"

Youtube Video

hahahaha, a great memorable moment. Hey, you told us you were not the best debater, and you meant it!

Rick, remember Cornerstone speech? Those liberal pundits accused you of being drunk, but we know better. You were just jossing with us, right Rick? You showed those liberal elites what a bunch of uptight uppity bores they are!

Youtube Video

Hey Rick, remember that ad about your religion on how religious persecution is related to gays serving openly in the military. You showed those heathen bastards!

Hey we stood "behind you", and who cares about those nerds that made fun of you because your video set new records on YouTube dislikes (747,573 and counting).

Youtube Video

Rick, we are going to miss your leadership and experience in international politics. Remember that time when you called the leaders of our "ally" Turkey a bunch of Islamic terrorists? You showed those NATO fools their place right?

Youtube Video

Hey Rick, Gov. Rick Perry, we are going to miss you. And the GOP primary will never be the same without you.

Maybe you are leaving because our country doesn't deserve you, but the blessed state of Texas sure as hell does!

218 Political Atheist  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 12:24:00pm

re: #213 Talking Point Detective

As if we never see crimes happen with nobody charged? Especially the kind that revolve around ill funded elections? (I mean inadequate funding to run the election process well)

219 Political Atheist  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 12:25:15pm

re: #209 kirkspencer

If your goal is accurate results you do not care why apart from how to fix it. Systemic errors like lost ballots have been an issue. That's not fraud. But it can change a result.

220 Kragar  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 12:25:38pm

re: #216 goddamnedfrank

That is one seriously scary photograph of Calista. She looks like Katherine Helmond did towards the end of Brazil.

She looks like she's about 10 seconds from detaching her mandible and swallowing a small rodent whole.

221 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 12:26:01pm

re: #119 Petero1818

That is the "legal" method. There are also plenty employing less evil but more illegal means.

Such as whom?

222 Political Atheist  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 12:26:38pm

It's amazing how unwelcome improving election result accuracy has become due to anger at GOP distortions. What else would explain it?

223 Talking Point Detective  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 12:28:01pm

re: #218 Rightwingconspirator

As if we never see crimes happen with nobody charged? Especially the kind that revolve around ill funded elections? (I mean inadequate funding to run the election process well)

I'm not saying that we never see crimes happen with nobody charged. I am saying that if there was solid evidence of hundreds of illegal immigrants voting, there would have been a follow-up investigation.

I have seen evidence of situations were follow-up on claims of voter fraud have turned up bubkis.

224 Talking Point Detective  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 12:28:59pm

re: #222 Rightwingconspirator

It's amazing how unwelcome improving election result accuracy has become due to anger at GOP distortions. What else would explain it?

This if false. No one is saying that improving election result accuracy is unwelcome.

You need to re-read the thread.

225 recusancy  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 12:29:03pm

re: #222 Rightwingconspirator

It's amazing how unwelcome improving election result accuracy has become due to anger at GOP distortions. What else would explain it?

You're making the assumption that your prescribed remedies would improve election accuracy and that it would have no ill side effects.

226 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 12:29:21pm

re: #130 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Except their argument is claiming by allowing legal same sex marriage, the human race will collapse because people will stop having children.

Exactly. Heterosexual marriage is a delicate bloom, which will wither and die if gay people are allowed to get married. We straight-married people are terribly easily discouraged, and will throw in the towel on reproducing if the slightest distraction comes our way.

227 Feline Fearless Leader  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 12:30:05pm

re: #222 Rightwingconspirator

It's amazing how unwelcome improving election result accuracy has become due to anger at GOP distortions. What else would explain it?

Approaching a "fix" of the system via voter ID as compared to selecting (or at least discussing) a different methodology that is not so closely tied to efforts to disenfranchise voters.

228 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 12:30:32pm

re: #226 SanFranciscoZionist

Exactly. Heterosexual marriage is a delicate bloom, which will wither and die if gay people are allowed to get married. We straight-married people are terribly easily discouraged, and will throw in the towel on reproducing if the slightest distraction comes our way.

We will all become gay once it is publicly acceptable!

229 Political Atheist  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 12:31:11pm

BBL again

230 Talking Point Detective  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 12:31:23pm

re: #215 Sergey Romanov

Or the system doesn't work.

Meaning? You think that there was solid evidence of hundreds of illegal immigrants voting, and there was no follow-up?

And you base this on Republican politicians saying that there was solid evidence of hundreds of illegal immigrants voting?

231 lawhawk  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 12:32:20pm

Speaking of insane, crazy, and wild rides, it looks like the legend (wait for it) -ary Coney Island Cyclone is going to get refurbished. Purists are claiming it's going to adversely affect the rider experience. I think it's going to make the ride a whole lot safer and last for generations to come.

It also got me thinking about the neighboring Thunderbolt, which was demolished more than a decade ago and how it could have become a second anchor to a larger entertainment venue/complex.

232 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 12:32:26pm

re: #182 Rightwingconspirator

Okay you are asking me for anecdotal, which is pretty questionable. But fraudulent votes were proven in the case of Dornan vs Sanchez. Just 9in that case) not enough to overturn the result. But if that had been closer, what then?

How many times are election results within error margins? On that many occasions we may as well have flipped a coin.

Can you give me a link, or more info on the case? Was it done intentionally by either candidate's campaign?

233 Political Atheist  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 12:33:06pm

re: #227 oaktree

But Voter ID can be done in a fair manner. Just not by the GOp unsupervised. I find that fact alone simple enough to see that I need not let bad efforts ruin fair efforts. Why let them steal and ruin the concept?

BBL for realz now.... darn it.

234 Sol Berdinowitz  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 12:33:46pm

re: #217 ElCapitanAmerica

When Perry first entered the race, I really thought he was gonna walk away with the nomination: he seemed to have everything the Party wanted.

I am glad I misoverestimated his chances.

235 Eventual Carrion  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 12:33:57pm

re: #214 Rightwingconspirator

[snip]

Do you reject out of hand the value of more accurate results in close election results?

I would think a more reliable recount procedure (paper trail for electronic voting) be implemented before looking at anything else. As has been stated, the voting part would be one difficult operation to execute on the kind of scale that would be needed to swing an election. But someone in the back room flipping bytes on the electronic machine would take me and a program about 2 minutes to fuck up millions of votes.

While (VotesStillThere)
{
if (Vote == "Obama")
Vote = "Romney"
}

236 Kragar  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 12:34:07pm

re: #226 SanFranciscoZionist

Exactly. Heterosexual marriage is a delicate bloom, which will wither and die if gay people are allowed to get married. We straight-married people are terribly easily discouraged, and will throw in the towel on reproducing if the slightest distraction comes our way.

I can't tell you how many times I've been distracted mid coitus by suddenly catching sight of a shiny object or a flashing light.

237 aagcobb  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 12:34:23pm

re: #226 SanFranciscoZionist

Exactly. Heterosexual marriage is a delicate bloom, which will wither and die if gay people are allowed to get married. We straight-married people are terribly easily discouraged, and will throw in the towel on reproducing if the slightest distraction comes our way.

A wingnut on another blog explained to me that gay marriage is a liberal conspiracy to destroy marriage (liberals hate marriage because they want everyone dependent on the state). If gay marriage is legal, it will so trivialize marriage that heterosexual couples will just quit getting married. That was his "rational basis" for keeping same-sex marriage illegal.

238 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 12:34:55pm

re: #230 Talking Point Detective

Meaning? You think that there was solid evidence of hundreds of illegal immigrants voting, and there was no follow-up?

I've seen nothing to indicate otherwise.

And you base this on Republican politicians saying that there was solid evidence of hundreds of illegal immigrants voting?

No, I base that on an official investigation. If that has been challenged, please find a link.

239 Kragar  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 12:35:24pm

re: #237 aagcobb

A wingnut on another blog explained to me that gay marriage is a liberal conspiracy to destroy marriage (liberals hate marriage because they want everyone dependent on the state). If gay marriage is legal, it will so trivialize marriage that heterosexual couples will just quit getting married. That was his "rational basis" for keeping same-sex marriage illegal.

"THOSE GAY SINGLE MOMS ARE BLEEDING US DRY!"

240 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 12:35:57pm

re: #204 erik_t

Jeeze. Any chance we can hire this illegal immigrant to teach his new countrymen how to give a shit about their own political process?

My father used to work with a Filipino guy who ran a dry-cleaning business in the building my father managed. Dude went home for the elections, when Aquino got in. He called my father from Manila, to tell him that someone would need the keys on Thursday. Then he yelled happily over the sound of gunfire--lots of it, quite close--that he thought the Philippines were on their way to democracy.

241 Henchman Ghazi-808  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 12:36:20pm

I'm extremely disappointed we lost the best AMERICAFUCKYEAH! candidate.

Looks like it's going to be Mitt10K

242 Talking Point Detective  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 12:36:25pm

re: #233 Rightwingconspirator

But Voter ID can be done in a fair manner. Just not by the GOp unsupervised. I find that fact alone simple enough to see that I need not let bad efforts ruin fair efforts. Why let them steal and ruin the concept?

BBL for realz now... darn it.

Fair enough. Still, the cost/benefit ratio - even of a fair process - has to be considered, and needs to be weighed against any opportunity cost of other improvements to election processes.

243 aagcobb  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 12:36:50pm

re: #234 ralphieboy

When Perry first entered the race, I really thought he was gonna walk away with the nomination: he seemed to have everything the Party wanted.

I am glad I misoverestimated his chances.

Perry was the candidate who was too stupid for even the Base to support. We now know why he never debates his opponents in Texas.

244 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 12:37:23pm

Once again, I have reached the end of the internet.

This will likely be the most absurd, adorable thing you'll see all day.

Youtube Video
245 Charles Johnson  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 12:37:49pm

re: #222 Rightwingconspirator

It's amazing how unwelcome improving election result accuracy has become due to anger at GOP distortions. What else would explain it?

You're conflating two issues. Improving election result accuracy is obviously a good thing, and there's plenty that can be done toward that end without disenfranchising anyone. For example, better coordination between agencies so that recently deceased people are removed from voter registration rolls as soon as a death certificate is issued.

Vote ID laws are not about improving accuracy, though -- they're about reducing the number of minorities who vote in key states.

246 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 12:38:28pm

re: #222 Rightwingconspirator

It's amazing how unwelcome improving election result accuracy has become due to anger at GOP distortions. What else would explain it?

Fear. The United States has an unfortunate history when it comes to voting rights and minorities.

247 recusancy  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 12:39:05pm

re: #241 BigPapa

I'm extremely disappointed we lost the best AMERICAFUCKYEAH! candidate.

Looks like it's going to be Mitt10K

The GOP wants a new Gilded Age so who better to represent them than Gordon Gekko.

248 Kragar  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 12:39:21pm

I love how the party that keeps saying the Government should stop interfering with American's property rights won't let homosexuals share medical coverage or property they bought and paid for because its against the law.

249 Obdicut  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 12:39:32pm

re: #246 SanFranciscoZionist

Fear. The United States has an unfortunate history when it comes to voting rights and minorities.

And an unfortunate present.

250 Olsonist  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 12:39:37pm

re: #222 Rightwingconspirator

It's amazing how unwelcome improving election result accuracy has become due to anger at GOP distortions. What else would explain it?

I agree.

But I come from an engineering background and I don't agree with your use of the word accuracy. I think you are interested in more precision. If Santorum won Iowa by 30 votes you might think that improved voter fraud detection might prevent Austrian illegals from voting for their guy in the GOP primary. But unless you fix any and ALL of the other systematic problems with the voting apparatus you're just fooling yourself with something which is more precise but not really more accurate.

In engineering speak, 3.000000 is a more precise approximation of pi but 3.14 is more accurate. That means you can add all the additional process you want to a flawed system and you'll still have a flawed system unless you fix the flaws. I'd rather trust my fellow American.

251 Henchman Ghazi-808  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 12:39:45pm

re: #237 aagcobb

A wingnut on another blog explained to me that gay marriage is a liberal conspiracy to destroy marriage (liberals hate marriage because they want everyone dependent on the state). If gay marriage is legal, it will so trivialize marriage that heterosexual couples will just quit getting married. That was his "rational basis" for keeping same-sex marriage illegal.

Try frying their bwainz by using the HomoSanctity Gambit: marriage has pretty much been trivialized and the sanctity reduced already. Allowing gays to marry may actually return the sanctity of marriage.

Then watch the bwainz melt.

252 Kragar  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 12:41:45pm

re: #251 BigPapa

Try frying their bwainz by using the HomoSanctity Gambit: marriage has pretty much been trivialized and the sanctity reduced already. Allowing gays to marry may actually return the sanctity of marriage.

Then watch the bwainz melt.

Newt Gingrich is a hero for asking his wife's permission to cheat on her.
A gay couple is evil because they want to marry.

Yeah, makes perfect sense.

253 Talking Point Detective  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 12:42:57pm

re: #238 Sergey Romanov

I've seen nothing to indicate otherwise.

No, I base that on an official investigation. If that has been challenged, please find a link.

There is abundant evidence.

[Link: www.brennancenter.org...]

I'm not sure how you're accounting for this. There are many occasions where, after politicians have claimed evidence of voter fraud, the accusations haven't stood up. The "official investigation" you reference was conducted by a partisan body. DOJ investigations show that the vast majority of investigations come up with bubkis.

254 Feline Fearless Leader  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 12:43:18pm

I see the Iowa GOP is now declaring Santorum the winner. Will they change that to Gingrich if Rick drops out?
//

255 aagcobb  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 12:43:43pm

re: #251 BigPapa

Try frying their bwainz by using the HomoSanctity Gambit: marriage has pretty much been trivialized and the sanctity reduced already. Allowing gays to marry may actually return the sanctity of marriage.

Then watch the bwainz melt.

I told him celebrity marriages were the liberal conspiracy to trivialize marriage.

256 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 12:44:05pm

re: #253 Talking Point Detective

The "official investigation" you reference was conducted by a partisan body.

Demonstrate that the task force was partisan.

257 Charles Johnson  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 12:44:18pm

re: #215 Sergey Romanov

The CNN article you're citing is only part of the story. In fact, the House later dropped their challenge to the vote against Robert Dornan, and the GOP task force that claimed to have evidence of substantial voter fraud admitted they could not prove their charges.

See: House Plans to Drop Dornan's Vote Challenge - Los Angeles Times.

258 blueraven  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 12:44:25pm

re: #222 Rightwingconspirator

It's amazing how unwelcome improving election result accuracy has become due to anger at GOP distortions. What else would explain it?

I am all for improving election results. Better reporting from polls, more accurate and standardized voting machines. More poll watchers.

Whatever can be done on that front is good. But voter ID has not been the culprit and has been used a way to disenfranchise legal voters.

259 Obdicut  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 12:44:48pm

re: #256 Sergey Romanov

Have you read through the Brennan Center's stuff? It's a really, really good resource about voting laws in the US.

260 zora  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 12:44:57pm

re: #252 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Newt Gingrich is a hero for asking his wife's permission to cheat on her.
A gay couple is evil because they want to marry.

Yeah, makes perfect sense.

and he wasn't asking to cheat. he was already cheating and wanted to know if he kept doing it would she just shut up about it and not be selfish by wanting him all to herself.

261 Henchman Ghazi-808  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 12:45:25pm

re: #252 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Newt Gingrich is a hero for asking his wife's permission to cheat on her.
A gay couple is evil because they want to marry.

Yeah, makes perfect sense.

Just sayin....

262 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 12:45:38pm

re: #257 Charles

OK, I see it was a purely Republican task force. Issue closed, thanks.

263 aagcobb  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 12:46:12pm

re: #260 zora

and he wasn't asking to cheat. he was already cheating and wanted to know if he kept doing it would she just shut up about it and not be selfish by wanting him all to herself.

Newt loves America too much to keep himself to just one woman. Why does Marianne hate America?

264 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 12:46:30pm

re: #237 aagcobb

A wingnut on another blog explained to me that gay marriage is a liberal conspiracy to destroy marriage (liberals hate marriage because they want everyone dependent on the state). If gay marriage is legal, it will so trivialize marriage that heterosexual couples will just quit getting married. That was his "rational basis" for keeping same-sex marriage illegal.

1. How would not being married make me dependent on the state?

2. I've heard this argument many times, and it doesn't hold water. Straight people have chosen to get married despite the destigmatizing of shacking up. Are we really doing so only because it is a special privilege Uncle Louis is denied by the state?

265 Charles Johnson  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 12:47:05pm

re: #262 Sergey Romanov

Also, that case took place 14 years ago. Not exactly evidence of rampant voter fraud today, even if they'd been able to prove their case.

266 Feline Fearless Leader  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 12:47:11pm

re: #263 aagcobb

Newt loves America too much to keep himself to just one woman. Why does Marianne hate America?

How much is it going to cost the US taxpayer to wash the stains off the Statue of Liberty?
/

267 Talking Point Detective  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 12:47:28pm

re: #256 Sergey Romanov

Demonstrate that the task force was partisan.

????

By nature it was partisan, was it not? Staffed by politicians?

268 Kragar  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 12:47:47pm

re: #258 blueraven

I am all for improving election results. Better reporting from polls, more accurate and standardized voting machines. More poll watchers.

Whatever can be done on that front is good. But voter ID has not been the culprit and has been used a way to disenfranchise legal voters.

How about this: Take a photo of everyone who shows up to vote, run the photos thru facial recognition software. If the same face flags more than once, launch an investigation.

Plus, subdermal implants. Just to be sure.

269 Charles Johnson  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 12:48:15pm

But the Dornan case does serve as a great example of the point I made above -- the GOP has been fear-mongering about this issue for many years, and almost never have they managed to actually prove any of their charges.

270 kirkspencer  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 12:48:18pm

re: #219 Rightwingconspirator

If your goal is accurate results you do not care why apart from how to fix it. Systemic errors like lost ballots have been an issue. That's not fraud. But it can change a result.

Not necessarily, and it also ignores the other goal: maximizing voter opportunity and participation.

In addition there's the cost.

Way back when I had to deal with engineers and project management I got taught a rule of thumb: each 9 costs 2. That is, adding another decimal of precision adds two zeros to the cost. It's not absolutely true -- at the lower end it's a lot less than that, and there's a point where you need to start multiplying by 1000 for that extra decimal of precision.

Still, the principle is there: there is a point of diminishing returns, where the slight increase in precision is not worth the cost. Given the very few numbers of cases where ID would prevent a voter fraud that succeeded in changing results, I don't know that the cost is worth the gain. Especially as one of the costs at this point is a decrease in total opportunity and participation.

271 Talking Point Detective  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 12:48:24pm

re: #262 Sergey Romanov

OK, I see it was a purely Republican task force. Issue closed, thanks.

There was one Dem, and the vote was 8-1.

Methinks perhaps that's not a coincidence.

272 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 12:48:26pm

re: #267 Talking Point Detective

???

By nature it was partisan, was it not? Staffed by politicians?

Um, no. Initially assumed it was bipartisan (because it's silly to make such task force partisan). It need not be partisan "by nature".

273 Petero1818  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 12:49:12pm

re: #221 SanFranciscoZionist

Such as whom?

I don't know, but that doesn't mean that I wouldn't bet my last dollar it is not going on. People commit fraud for pennies in this society. You don't believe with what is at stake that there aren't people out there trying to scheme voter fraud scenarios? They have found dead people voting in elections for years. That is nothing new. I simply don't believe there aren't more sophisticated schemes out there. You may choose to believe otherwise. Anyways, my only point is that securing elections against voter fraud is a fine idea. One must be careful that it does not in any way disenfranchise any group, as is the case with the GOP voter ID idea, but that does not mean that one should not be talking about it. I personally believe that the opportunities for fraud have never been easier with new electronic and computerized voting machines. One person could have a huge impact if they were able to change the programming of those machines.

274 wrenchwench  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 12:49:19pm

re: #265 Charles

Also, that case took place 14 years ago. Not exactly evidence of rampant voter fraud today, even if they'd been able to prove their case.

Also Sanchez is female and Hispanic and Dornan was booted from a seat that had been Republican since time immemorial. Hysterics ensued.

275 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 12:50:01pm

re: #271 Talking Point Detective

There was one Dem, and the vote was 8-1.

Methinks perhaps that's not a coincidence.

"For 11 months, a three-member task force of the Oversight Committee"

276 Bubblehead II  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 12:51:19pm

re: #235 RayFerd

You mean something like this?

FOX: Diebold Electronic Vote Fraud Confirmed

277 Sol Berdinowitz  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 12:51:56pm

re: #276 Bubblehead II

You mean something like this?

FOX: Diebold Electronic Vote Fraud Confirmed

Fortune favors Diebold

278 Olsonist  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 12:52:20pm

re: #269 Charles

But the Dornan case does serve as a great example of the point I made above -- the GOP has been fear-mongering about this issue for many years, and almost never have they managed to actually prove any of their charges.

That's because falsifiability isn't falsifiable. If you get my drift.

Ok, I actually meant something by that. You can't prove a negative is probably the better way of saying it. The Republicans can keep this alive as an issue by saying you didn't prove the reverse.

279 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 12:52:48pm

re: #277 ralphieboy

Fortune favors Diebold

Is "diebold" a "devil" in Rumanian? //

280 Talking Point Detective  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 12:56:50pm

re: #275 Sergey Romanov

"For 11 months, a three-member task force of the Oversight Committee"

National News Briefs; No Indictments Brought In California Vote Query

[Link: www.nytimes.com...]

SANTA ANA, Calif., Dec. 19— A grand jury declined to return indictments in an investigation into illegal voting in last year's upset of Representative Bob Dornan, Republican of California, by a Democratic newcomer, Loretta Sanchez.

A 984-vote loser in his bid for a 10th term, Mr. Dornan maintained that there was voter fraud and asked the House of Representatives to call a new election. The House investigation has been inconclusive, and the legislators have put the question off until they return next year.

District Attorney Michael Capizzi said today in a statement that the grand jury inquiry had shed little light on the disputed race because it looked at registration for the county and the district crosses county lines.

281 Sol Berdinowitz  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 12:57:01pm

re: #279 Sergey Romanov

Is "diebold" a "devil" in Rumanian? //

"Diabolus", I learned recently, comes from the Latin: dia-bolus, the one who mixes everything up, tossing it about:

And leaves no paper trail...

282 palomino  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 12:58:29pm

re: #46 Charles

I am utterly opposed to "voter ID" laws. The "problem" they're supposed to address is simply not real. And the true reason why the GOP is pushing so hard for these laws is very simple: because they will disproportionately affect minorities, who tend to vote Democratic.

It's a political ploy, nothing more, designed to gain an advantage for Republicans.

The gop is like Avis from the old rental car commercials. Since they're nationally no. 2 (in voter identification and registered voters, a situation that's been basically true for decades) and the demographics are moving against them, they "have to try harder." One way to try harder is to tip the scales in your favor with laws that disenfranchise people unlikely to vote for you.

283 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 12:58:29pm

re: #281 ralphieboy

"Diabolus", I learned recently, comes from the Latin: dia-bolus, the one who mixes everything up, tossing it about:

And leaves no paper trail...

"Titivillus" was the demonic figure believed to introduce errors into scribes' work in the Middle Ages.

284 aagcobb  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 12:58:54pm

re: #264 SanFranciscoZionist

1. How would not being married make me dependent on the state?

2. I've heard this argument many times, and it doesn't hold water. Straight people have chosen to get married despite the destigmatizing of shacking up. Are we really doing so only because it is a special privilege Uncle Louis is denied by the state?

Frothy mix said that marriage is the only anti-poverty program we need. If you are married, he guaranteed you won't be in poverty.

285 Talking Point Detective  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 12:59:14pm

re: #280 Talking Point Detective

Context:

[Link: www.nytimes.com...]

286 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 1:00:28pm

Twitter says ha ha.

A.D. Miles
@80miles

Rick Perry announcing he dropped out of the race is like me emailing Gisele Bundchen to tell her I'm not interested in dating her anymore.

287 Talking Point Detective  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 1:00:41pm

re: #285 Talking Point Detective

More context:

[Link: www.nytimes.com...]

288 Kragar  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 1:00:43pm

re: #283 SanFranciscoZionist

"Titivillus" was the demonic figure believed to introduce errors into scribes' work in the Middle Ages.

I'm so blaming Titivillus next time I make a typo on a report.

289 Talking Point Detective  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 1:01:42pm

re: #278 Olsonist

That's because falsifiability isn't falsifiable. If you get my drift.

Ok, I actually meant something by that. You can't prove a negative is probably the better way of saying it. The Republicans can keep this alive as an issue by saying you didn't prove the reverse.

Can, will, and have.

290 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 1:02:46pm

re: #284 aagcobb

Frothy mix said that marriage is the only anti-poverty program we need. If you are married, he guaranteed you won't be in poverty.

Er...there are plenty of married people, and their children, in poverty. The Frothman should get out more.

291 Petero1818  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 1:03:58pm

re: #290 SanFranciscoZionist

Er...there are plenty of married people, and their children, in poverty. The Frothman should get out more.

Yes but they are rich in spirit...unless of course they are in the half of married people that end up divorced.

292 palomino  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 1:04:35pm

re: #173 _RememberTonyC

We have discussed many times how the GOP has turned in a strange "tea party inspired" direction. But if the likes of Perry, Cain, and Bachmann are dropping out, can one make the argument that the primary voters are turning away from their brand of extremism? And if that is the case, can the argument be made that if a relative centrist like Romney gets the nomination, maybe the party isn't as whacko-dominated as we think?

If the non-Romney vote is now dominated by Santorum, Gingrich and Paul (as opposed to Perry and Cain), how is that an argument that the GOP is less "whacko dominated?" Different people, still whackos.

293 Kragar  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 1:05:08pm

re: #290 SanFranciscoZionist

Er...there are plenty of married people, and their children, in poverty. The Frothman should get out more.

They don't love Jesus enough to be rich.

294 Targetpractice  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 1:05:27pm

re: #293 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

They don't love Jesus enough to be rich.

GMTA.

295 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 1:05:53pm

re: #293 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

They don't love Jesus enough to be rich.

Well, shoot. What is it? Get married, love Jesus...what's the magical formula to ensure that you will never need a hand from anyone ever again?

296 Olsonist  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 1:06:17pm

re: #293 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

They don't love Jesus enough to be rich.

I'm fucking stealing that line and I'm not going to give you any credit.

297 Political Atheist  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 1:06:25pm

Is there a consensus here that HAVA should be repealed?
Charles?

TalkingPoint, and Palomino-
I guess I just don't buy the premise that just because the GOP has used ID to distort the results, that any and every effort to push ID out and then apply ID at the voting booth sign in is necessarily going to do the same thing. Is the Democratic vote really that fragile? So fragile we have problems even with fair minded efforts in the abstract? I don't get that.

298 Feline Fearless Leader  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 1:07:03pm

re: #288 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

I'm so blaming Titivillus next time I make a typo on a report.

It was revealed yesterday that Titivillus is responsible for TRON PAUL as well. Must be attracted to the gold.

299 palomino  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 1:07:51pm

re: #216 goddamnedfrank

That is one seriously scary photograph of Calista. She looks like Katherine Helmond did towards the end of Brazil.

Jesus, she's almost as ugly as Newt.

300 Targetpractice  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 1:08:29pm

re: #295 SanFranciscoZionist

Well, shoot. What is it? Get married, love Jesus...what's the magical formula to ensure that you will never need a hand from anyone ever again?

1. Get married
2. Love Jesus
3. ???
4. Profit!

//

301 Obdicut  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 1:08:54pm

re: #297 Rightwingconspirator

I guess I just don't buy the premise that just because the GOP has used ID to distort the results, that any and every effort to push ID out and then apply ID at the voting booth sign in is necessarily going to do the same thing.

Can you cite such an effort that was actually well-intentioned and had good results?

302 Kragar  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 1:09:19pm

re: #296 Olsonist

I'm fucking stealing that line and I'm not going to give you any credit.

I will eat your first born.

303 Charles Johnson  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 1:10:25pm

I had a little Twitter debate yesterday about this voter fraud issue when someone with the name @nhteaparties suddenly tweeted at me and Andrew Breitbart that he had REAMS of proof at his website that voter fraud was rampant in New Hampshire.

I looked at the website and couldn't find any proof at all, so I asked him to show me exactly what proof he was talking about, and he came up with a grand total of five returned registration cards, marked invalid (so nobody actually voted), and then started giving me links to press releases claiming voter fraud was out of control without showing any evidence at all.

It was pretty sad, but that's what happens when you start actually researching these right wing claims of voter fraud. They just evaporate.

304 Talking Point Detective  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 1:12:45pm

re: #297 Rightwingconspirator

Is there a consensus here that HAVA should be repealed?
Charles?

TalkingPoint, and Palomino-
I guess I just don't buy the premise that just because the GOP has used ID to distort the results, that any and every effort to push ID out and then apply ID at the voting booth sign in is necessarily going to do the same thing. Is the Democratic vote really that fragile? So fragile we have problems even with fair minded efforts in the abstract? I don't get that.

Again - you need to weigh the cost/benefit and the opportunity cost.

What do you gain? What do you lose? What else could you do in its stead that would have a better cost/benefit ratio?

If you find that the cost is more than the benefit, and/or other efforts would bring better returns, then what reason other than partisan benefit would there be to focusing on voter ID laws?

305 HappyWarrior  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 1:12:47pm

Love that he's endorsing Gingrich. Talk about two asses who deserve each other.

306 Targetpractice  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 1:13:07pm

Perhaps that's the reason I'm poor, it's because I tried to love Jesus, but got hit with a restraining order instead.

//

307 aagcobb  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 1:13:18pm

Exciting news for Newt. He has been officially endorsed by the pro-family website Free Republic. Because if you have an open marriage, you don't have to get a divorce to sleep with your mistress!

308 wrenchwench  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 1:13:18pm

re: #297 Rightwingconspirator

Is there a consensus here that HAVA should be repealed?
Charles?

I guess I just don't buy the premise that just because the GOP has used ID to distort the results, that any and every effort to push ID out and then apply ID at the voting booth sign in is necessarily going to do the same thing. Is the Democratic vote really that fragile? So fragile we have problems even with fair minded efforts in the abstract? I don't get that.

Asking for consensus here is silly.

HAVA's statement on voter ID:

Voter identification

HAVA requires any voter who registered by mail and who has not previously voted in a federal election to show current and valid photo identification or a copy of a current utility bill, bank statement, government check, paycheck, or other government document that shows the name and address of the voter. Voters who submitted any of these forms of identification during registration are exempt, as are voters entitled to vote by absentee ballot under the Uniformed and Overseas Citizens Absentee Voting Act.

Not the same as what Republicans are pushing for now.

"Voter ID" is a vote suppression tactic. Why are only Republicans pushing that? Because it benefits only them in election results.

309 Kragar  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 1:13:46pm

re: #306 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

Perhaps that's the reason I'm poor, is because I tried to love Jesus, but got hit with a restraining order instead.

//

No more migrant camps for you.

310 Political Atheist  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 1:14:30pm

re: #301 Obdicut

Can you cite such an effort that was actually well-intentioned and had good results?

Not that passed. And BTW, that is why I am motivated to push the point. It's past time that was done. To have the links I'd need, I need the minutes of discussion in certain legislative committees. I'm just going by my recollection of some radio interviews and small news items at the time. Late 1990's

311 lawhawk  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 1:15:12pm

RIP Johnny Otis:

Youtube Video
312 Talking Point Detective  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 1:16:03pm

re: #308 wrenchwench

Asking for consensus here is silly.

HAVA's statement on voter ID:

Not the same as what Republicans are pushing for now.

"Voter ID" is a vote suppression tactic. Why are only Republicans pushing that? Because it benefits only them in election results.

Do note that five years subsequent to that publication, someone could vote with a provisional ballot only if they returned with a photo ID within 48 hours.

313 albusteve  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 1:16:29pm

re: #306 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

Perhaps that's the reason I'm poor, is because I tried to love Jesus, but got hit with a restraining order instead.

//

just because the guy had some decent advice doesn't me you have to love him because of it...besides, I think 'love' is used rather than a more harsh 'submission'....it's all way to goofy for me

314 Political Atheist  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 1:16:40pm

re: #304 Talking Point Detective

What we gain is better results in those close ones. The ones where those small numbers like fraud, error, ballots wrecked in the machine, and questionable eligibility of a small % of voters can make the difference.

If a guy wins by 20% it's irrelevant. But if we care about the close ones, we care to do something like what I suggest. IMHO of course.

And lets take a look at my point about ID and the poor.

315 engineer cat  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 1:16:49pm

that leaves one mormon, two catholics, and a martian

316 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 1:17:46pm

re: #315 engineer dog

that leaves one mormon, two catholics, and a martian

There's something about him that screams "Innsmouth".

317 Olsonist  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 1:18:02pm

re: #311 lawhawk

I used to listen to the Johnny Otis show on KPFA. That and Al Jazzbeaux Collins on KCSM.

318 palomino  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 1:18:36pm

re: #297 Rightwingconspirator

Is there a consensus here that HAVA should be repealed?
Charles?

I guess I just don't buy the premise that just because the GOP has used ID to distort the results, that any and every effort to push ID out and then apply ID at the voting booth sign in is necessarily going to do the same thing. Is the Democratic vote really that fragile? So fragile we have problems even with fair minded efforts in the abstract? I don't get that.

Well, the Dems have more voters who are poor, minority, recently naturalized citizens, students and first time voters. All of these groups are less likely to have some standard ID card than gop voters. Thus in an election more Dem voters would get bounced than gop voters. And in many purple states, that 1 or 2% makes all the difference.

Read some history about motor voter laws over the decades. The gop uniformly opposed, as it hurt their electoral prospects. It's no accident that low turnout elections tend to favor the gop, with the opposite being true for the Dems.

319 albusteve  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 1:18:39pm

re: #311 lawhawk

RIP Johnny Otis:

[Video]

oh no...a huge talent, iconic

320 Targetpractice  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 1:18:42pm

re: #316 Sergey Romanov

There's something about him that screams "Innsmouth".

Certainly explains where all the gold to back our money will come from.

/

321 Talking Point Detective  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 1:18:49pm

re: #314 Rightwingconspirator

What we gain is better results in those close ones. The ones where those small numbers like fraud, error, ballots wrecked in the machine, and questionable eligibility of a small % of voters can make the difference.

If a guy wins by 20% it's irrelevant. But if we care about the close ones, we care to do something like what I suggest. IMHO of course.

Better results only if you think that the potential for eliminating (highly unlikely) a few illegal votes is "better" than eliminating (probably many more) legit votes from typically minority communities.

Is that better?

322 engineer cat  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 1:19:01pm

re: #307 aagcobb

Exciting news for Newt. He has been officially endorsed by the pro-family website Free Republic. Because if you have an open marriage, you don't have to get a divorce to sleep with your mistress!

and only newt will give you the Real Racist Thrill

323 Targetpractice  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 1:19:45pm

re: #313 albusteve

just because the guy had some decent advice doesn't me you have to love him because of it...besides, I think 'love' is used rather than a more harsh 'submission'...it's all way to goofy for me

I gave up trying to understand religion ages ago.

324 jaunte  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 1:19:51pm

He-Said He-Said: Santorum And Romney Camps Trade Barbs Over Iowa ‘Concession’ Call

325 Kragar  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 1:20:18pm

re: #320 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

Certainly explains where all the gold to back our money will come from.

/

I haven't heard Bryan Fischer say anything about the Esoteric Order of Dagon yet.

326 Petero1818  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 1:20:44pm

re: #315 engineer dog

that leaves one mormon, two catholics, and a martian

Which begs the question. If the evangelicals are such a potent force, why can't they run a candidate? I think the answer might be because their beliefs are inconsistent with a secular democratic system. Funnily enough I remember thinking the same thing about radical Islamists.

327 palomino  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 1:21:07pm

re: #323 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

I gave up trying to understand religion ages ago.

Me too. Wise move on your part, I think.

328 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 1:21:34pm

How many fundies know that Newt is a damned Papist?/

329 Sol Berdinowitz  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 1:21:43pm

re: #283 SanFranciscoZionist

"Titivillus" was the demonic figure believed to introduce errors into scribes' work in the Middle Ages.

A novice monk is making copies of copies and suggests to the Abbot that he should go check the originals to make sure they are not copying mistakes.

The Abbot goes off to the archives and does not return for some time. The novice goes looking for him and finds him in the cellar, banging his head against a wall and shouting "I don't believe it: Here it says we are supposed to CELEBRATE!!!"

330 erik_t  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 1:24:44pm

re: #328 Sergey Romanov

How many fundies know that Newt is a damned Papist?/

Not even from the cradle, but a convert. Pretty stupid idea from an electoral point of view.

331 engineer cat  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 1:25:14pm

re: #328 Sergey Romanov

How many fundies know that Newt is a damned Papist?/

i heard that when newt converted, they made him buy a new pair of diamond encrusted shoelaces for the pope/

332 Political Atheist  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 1:25:38pm

re: #318 palomino

That is exactly why when I bring this up I make that point about it being worthwhile to push ID out to the poor. Way up thread I mentioned about how the poor get stuck using expensive check cashing services or worse, instead of ordinary banks. What I think is being missed here is a chance to take this issue away from the GOP, use it to push state funded ID out to the needy and then see about voter ID. Call it the ID For Free plan for all I care.

BTW, since the state can demand ID for any number of legit reasons already, might they not be morally obligated to provide it to the poor?

333 Petero1818  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 1:26:01pm

re: #330 erik_t

Not even from the cradle, but a convert. Pretty stupid idea from an electoral point of view.

My guess is Callista agreed to the open marriage thing going into it. Otherwise how could he have promised the Catholic church that he no longer believed in divorce.

334 Feline Fearless Leader  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 1:27:33pm

re: #333 Petero1818

My guess is Callista agreed to the open marriage thing going into it. Otherwise how could he have promised the Catholic church that he no longer believed in divorce.

Because Newt was confident that he knew Catholic doctrine and guidance better than they did. He IS the superior intellect, is he not?

335 Kragar  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 1:29:30pm

Feds shutdown MegaUpload

Federal prosecutors have shut down one of the world's largest file-sharing sites, Megaupload.com, on charges of violating piracy laws -- a day after a 24-hour blackout of popular websites such as Wikipedia drew national attention to the issue.

"This action is among the largest criminal copyright cases ever brought by the United States," the Justice department said in a statement about the indictment.

336 Petero1818  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 1:31:52pm

re: #334 oaktree

Because Newt was confident that he knew Catholic doctrine and guidance better than they did. He IS the superior intellect, is he not?

Newt: "It's very hard to look at the recent polls and think that the odds are very high I'm going to be the Pope"

337 Political Atheist  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 1:36:55pm

re: #321 Talking Point Detective

I don't accept the premise that a fair ID effort would do that. A non partisan effort can result in non partisan results. And can we please remember the benefits of having ID?

338 palomino  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 1:38:27pm

re: #332 Rightwingconspirator

That is exactly why when I bring this up I make that point about it being worthwhile to push ID out to the poor. Way up thread I mentioned about how the poor get stuck using expensive check cashing services or worse, instead of ordinary banks. What I think is being missed here is a chance to take this issue away from the GOP, use it to push state funded ID out to the needy and then see about voter ID. Call it the ID For Free plan for all I care.

BTW, since the state can demand ID for any number of legit reasons already, might they not be morally obligated to provide it to the poor?

Sure, getting more ID cards is a worthwhile goal. But it doesn't have to be used as a tool to disenfrachise voters in the meantime. Which is the clear immediate intent.

339 Political Atheist  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 1:40:57pm

re: #338 palomino

Sure, getting more ID cards is a worthwhile goal. But it doesn't have to be used as a tool to disenfrachise voters in the meantime. Which is the clear immediate intent.

That is not the intent of what I proposed. Please stop lumping me in with the GOP. They don't own the idea. Just their own actions. I really have tried to make that clear.

340 darthstar  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 1:46:33pm

Damn...I miss out on all the fun.

341 Political Atheist  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 1:51:23pm

re: #127 recusancy

You seem to agree with the GOP.

Not unless you fail to see the difference between an honest effort as I propose and what the GOP has done.

Heh, it's put my first post in the bottom comments. Been a long time since I visited the basement. Understandable given how hard it is to unwind an honest effort from what the GOP has damaged.

342 darthstar  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 2:05:45pm

re: #341 Rightwingconspirator

Only three downdings gets you on the list? Wow...we've lost our edge recently. At least D_F has a respectable -21...he's doing it right. :)

Peace, love and robots.

343 Political Atheist  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 2:07:15pm

re: #342 darthstar

Yeah, the other day I clicked on it and nada, zip. Nobody was there. Maybe a glitch maybe an excess of good behavior.

344 Political Atheist  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 2:28:31pm

re: #269 Charles

But we do see results much closer than that one. It easily could have been close enough to force a different outcome. Be that as it may-Would you disagree with me that if we get funded ID pushed out to the needy we help them and pull the advantage out from under the GOP?

345 garhighway  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 4:14:46pm

re: #182 Rightwingconspirator

Okay you are asking me for anecdotal, which is pretty questionable. But fraudulent votes were proven in the case of Dornan vs Sanchez. Just 9in that case) not enough to overturn the result. But if that had been closer, what then?

How many times are election results within error margins? On that many occasions we may as well have flipped a coin.

And voter ID will fix that how?

346 Political Atheist  Thu, Jan 19, 2012 5:08:58pm

Voter ID as I propose or Voter or the way the GOP wants it?

Voter ID as I suggest would have reduced the ineligible votes. When ineligible votes are tallied in with the rest you get false numbers. False numbers will give false results in a close one. Of course we can forget all that just because of GOP misdeeds and face the mess from 2000 over and over and over.

We can forget about improving the technology over Diebold ownership / hacking worries and put up with hanging chads and votes lost to machine errors and mangling.

Or we can set aside the GOP proposals a minute and discuss superior alternatives as I tried to do in this thread.


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