Komen VP Karen Handel: I’d Outlaw Gay Adoptions

No wonder
Wingnuts • Views: 36,140

The ideological bent of Komen Foundation public policy VP Karen Handel really becomes clear in this 2010 interview with the Atlanta Journal-Constitution on the topic of gay marriage and adoption, in which she says she favors outlawing gay adoptions: Handel Says Gay Parents Not as ‘Legitimate’ as Hetero Ones.

Q: Do you view committed gay relationships as being less legitimate than committed heterosexual relationships?

A: As a Christian, I view relationships and marriage as being between a man and a woman.

Q: But what about the legitimacy of the relationship? Do you have any gay friends? Do you know gay couples?

A: Of course I do. Are we going to spend our whole day talking on this issue?

Q: I want to know how you feel about this.

A: I’ve been very clear. And you know, as a Christian, marriage is between a man and a woman. I do not think that gay relationships are — they are not what God intended. And that’s just my viewpoint on it. Others might disagree with that. But I would also hope that if you look at what is happening in our state, we’ve got issues we need to be focused on in Georgia . We have a constitutional amendment against gay marriage. And it’s something that I supported wholeheartedly. We have that, and let’s get dealing with the other issues that we also need to deal with in Georgia. And the press can help with that. (Laughs).

Q: Frequently, folks in the Legislature kind of threaten to — there are always rumblings in the Legislature that they may outlaw gay adoptions. You’re against gay adoption.

A: I am against gay adoption. But remember — I mean, if there is legislation on that, certainly I will follow that and look at it. But in the end, ultimately courts are going to be the ones to have to make the decision on that and it’s always in the best interests of the child. Do I think that gay parents is in the best interest of the child? No. But we do have our court system that deals with many and most of those issues.

Q: Would you favor outlawing gay adoptions?

A: Yeah, I would consider that, absolutely.

Q: Do you know any gay couples with children?

A: Not that I’m aware of.

Q: So you think gay couples are less qualified to function as parents than straight couples?

A: I think that for a child to be in a household — in a family in a household with a situation where the parents are not married, as in one man and one woman, is not the best household for a child.

Q: Is it better or worse than a single parent household?

A: Doug, I’m really trying to be straightforward with you but I’m not going to debate all the nuances. I’ve made it abundantly clear that I think that marriage is between a man and a woman. And that’s what I believe, and I don’t know what more you would like me to add to that.

Q: I guess I want to know why you think gay parents aren’t as legitimate as heterosexual parents.

A: Because I don’t.

(h/t: Alan Colmes.)

Jump to bottom

292 comments
1 Shvaughn  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 2:56:26pm

I'd outlaw adoptions by Karen Handel, so there!

2 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 2:58:02pm

Meet Komen's Kooky Karen.

3 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 2:58:24pm
(h/t: Alan Colmes.)

I felt a great disturbance in the Wingularity, as if millions of heads suddenly turned red in anger and were suddenly asploded.

4 jaunte  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 2:58:35pm

And of course, she hasn't bothered to adopt any children herself.

5 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 2:58:35pm

But nooooooo, there were no political motivations to de-funding PP...

6 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 2:59:14pm

re: #2 Sergey Romanov

Meet Komen's Kooky Karen.

Who knows, it might even stick ;)

7 wrenchwench  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 2:59:37pm
Q: I guess I want to know why you think gay parents aren’t as legitimate as heterosexual parents.

A: Because I don’t.

Well, gosh, can't argue with that kind of logic.

8 jaunte  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 2:59:46pm

"If you don't have the kind of parents I prefer, you'll have no parents at all."

9 goddamnedfrank  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 2:59:50pm

SGK hires bog dwelling bandersnatch as head of public policy, then is surprised when their resulting whipsawing policy statements manage to piss off virtually everyone.

10 HappyWarrior  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 2:59:58pm

As someone with gay relatives who have kids, this attitude really bothers me a lot to say the least. I think the focus of adoption should be finding an as loving family as possible and if that family happens to be a gay or lesbian couple so be it.

11 Targetpractice  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 3:00:14pm
Q: I guess I want to know why you think gay parents aren’t as legitimate as heterosexual parents.

A: Because I don’t.

That's the whole "argument" in a nutshell, that they "know" because it fits their worldview. And no amount of research in opposition to what they "know" will sway them.

12 Charles Johnson  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 3:02:19pm

The Feds are dropping the investigation into Lance Armstrong's alleged doping, with no charges.

Lance wins another one.

13 Charles Johnson  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 3:02:32pm
14 Shvaughn  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 3:03:08pm

When it was politically expedient, Handel joined the Log Cabin Republicans -- and then when she was running for office, she lied and said she never had.

15 bratwurst  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 3:04:21pm
16 wrenchwench  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 3:05:14pm

re: #12 Charles

The Feds are dropping the investigation into Lance Armstrong's alleged doping, with no charges.

Lance wins another one.

He's a lucky guy. And rich. Sometimes those two things work together.

17 Gus  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 3:05:16pm

Yep. That's her. Karen Handel: wingnut.

18 HappyWarrior  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 3:05:16pm

re: #14 Shvaughn

When it was politically expedient, Handel joined the Log Cabin Republicans -- and then when she was running for office, she lied and said she never had.

Sounds like a Tim Pawlenty. He was once fairly moderate for a Republican on gay rights but then he got higher ambitions. His excuse I recall was that gay rights would allow for transvestites in the schools. Romney's another one that has moved backward on gay rights to pander to the right wing base.

19 Shvaughn  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 3:05:33pm

re: #12 Charles

The Feds are dropping the investigation into Lance Armstrong's alleged doping, with no charges.

Lance wins another one.

I was quite pleased with Lance Armstrong's matching pledge of $100,000 to Planned Parenthood.

20 goddamnedfrank  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 3:06:28pm

re: #12 Charles

The Feds are dropping the investigation into Lance Armstrong's alleged doping, with no charges.

Lance wins another one.

At least the Livestrong Foundation donated $100K to PP yesterday. That was one of the more meaningful repudiations of SGK's decision because Livestrong and Komen developed an incredibly tight relationship over the last several years partnering at Tour of California races.

21 jamesfirecat  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 3:07:49pm

Q: I guess I want to know why you think gay parents aren’t as legitimate as heterosexual parents.

A: Because I don’t.

I'm not normnaly the type to insult public figures, but you my not so good woman are a bigot.

By the way is there a word for people who look down on other people based on what gender they desire, like how sexist adresses someone who looks down on people based on what gender they are?

22 jaunte  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 3:08:02pm

re: #20 goddamnedfrank

Gangsterism!

23 Shvaughn  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 3:09:10pm

re: #15 bratwurst

Well this is not exactly shocking...

Ari Fleischer Secretly Helped Guide Komen Strategy On Planned Parenthood

Anyone who mockingly scoffs at a "conspiracy to destroy Planned Parenthood" just hasn't been paying attention lately.

Destroying PP is a major goal of the social conservatives, and not just a case of Komen coincidentally creating a rule that happened to hurt their relationship with PP.

24 HappyWarrior  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 3:09:22pm

re: #21 jamesfirecat

Q: I guess I want to know why you think gay parents aren’t as legitimate as heterosexual parents.

A: Because I don’t.

I'm not normnaly the type to insult public figures, but you my not so good woman are a bigot.

By the way is there a word for people who look down on other people based on what gender they desire, like how sexist adresses someone who looks down on people based on what gender they are?

It is a bigoted attitude. I'd just love for Karen Handel to stare my cousin and his husband in the eyes and tell them they're not good parents simply because they're gay. And it frustrates/amuses me even more that Republicans like Handel run for office claiming to be for small government.

25 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 3:10:09pm

Here's the thing about breast cancer screenings at Planned Parenthood. Nobody goes in to get just screened for breast cancer. That's stupid. It takes about a minute and a half, and nobody's going to go to the trouble of a doctor's visit for something like that if there's no other symptoms.

Breast cancer screening is usually part of a larger female check up that involves the rest of your lady parts. Most women actually go in for those check ups for the simple reason that doctors have very wisely tied pap smears and breast cancer screening to prescriptions for birth control.

Since the kind of woman who doesn't have insurance to pay for a mammogram is likely to end up at PP, it was a genuinely good idea to put the vouchers where the women were going to get screened.

26 jaunte  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 3:10:43pm

re: #8 jaunte

"If you don't have the kind of parents I prefer, you'll have no parents at all."

I think it's important to keep pointing out that people with the same irrational beliefs about parenting as Handel are oppressing not just gay adults who would like to adopt children, but also thousands of children who are growing up without parents, stuck in the foster care system, who have no power to fight back.

27 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 3:10:51pm

republicans are death

28 HappyWarrior  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 3:11:20pm

I still think the worst lie regarding PP that the right wing put on the table was that abortion is federally funded. It's been banned since the Hyde Amendment but that doesn't stop Republican candidates and right wing pundits from spreading bullshit.

29 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 3:13:27pm

re: #24 HappyWarrior

It is a bigoted attitude. I'd just love for Karen Handel to stare my cousin and his husband in the eyes and tell them they're not good parents simply because they're gay. And it frustrates/amuses me even more that Republicans like Handel run for office claiming to be for small government.

they run for office because they're animals with giant egos who want to impose their disgusting will on people


the rest is window dressing and marketing distractions for dullards, the important thing is that hatred and the lust for ruining the lives of those they are afraid of, that's why they seek power

30 jamesfirecat  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 3:13:40pm

re: #15 bratwurst

Well this is not exactly shocking...

Ari Fleischer Secretly Helped Guide Komen Strategy On Planned Parenthood

Am I the only one who feels ready to get outraged?

31 ProGunLiberal  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 3:14:31pm

Question:

I wanted to change the topic because of something the Salafi President of MSA put up on his FB. I wanted you opinions. Would that be okay?

32 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 3:15:14pm

re: #30 jamesfirecat

Am I the only one who feels ready to get outraged?

Don't be outraged, just logically come to the conclusion that republicans who adhere to the party's current ideology are evil, the party now stands for an animalistic, subhuman domineering outlook, it stands for ghoulish superstitions and naked hatred

33 HappyWarrior  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 3:15:33pm

re: #29 WindUpBird

they run for office because they're animals with giant egos who want to impose their disgusting will on people

the rest is window dressing and marketing distractions for dullards, the important thing is that hatred and the lust for ruining the lives of those they are afraid of, that's why they seek power

True that. I don't know though what pisses me off though most- these candidates or the fact that people fall for this crap. Take my own state of Virginia here, Bob McDonnell ran a campaign talking about how he was for jobs. What is he signing into law? Oh a law that requires ultrasounds for women getting abortion. It is not the state's place whatsoever to scare women into not getting abortions. It's a load of shit.

34 ProGunLiberal  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 3:16:02pm

re: #31 ProLifeLiberal

Also, should I blur out the name of this not-so-innocent snake?

35 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 3:17:30pm

re: #33 HappyWarrior

True that. I don't know though what pisses me off though most- these candidates or the fact that people fall for this crap. Take my own state of Virginia here, Bob McDonnell ran a campaign talking about how he was for jobs. What is he signing into law? Oh a law that requires ultrasounds for women getting abortion. It is not the state's place whatsoever to scare women into not getting abortions. It's a load of shit.

They care very very deeply about keeping women enslaved and frightened

36 zora  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 3:19:42pm

re: #19 Shvaughn

I was quite pleased with Lance Armstrong's matching pledge of $100,000 to Planned Parenthood.

so the wingnut strategy to defund planned parenthood has resulted in a moneybomb to p.p. and put s.g.k. under a microscope. i'm pleased.

37 Shvaughn  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 3:20:56pm

re: #36 zora

so the wingnut strategy to defund planned parenthood has resulted in a moneybomb to p.p. and put s.g.k. under a microscope. i'm pleased.

It's a definite win for the good guys, even with Komen's obvious mendacities in their "apology."

38 ProGunLiberal  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 3:21:14pm

re: #36 zora

Backfire: This is the definition of it.

39 ProGunLiberal  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 3:22:21pm

Haven't heard I it is okay to do the topic change or not. I wanted a sounding board to see if you thought of this guy, based on his commentary, the way I do.

40 Targetpractice  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 3:22:49pm

re: #36 zora

so the wingnut strategy to defund planned parenthood has resulted in a moneybomb to p.p. and put s.g.k. under a microscope. i'm pleased.

They managed to successfully piss off both sides of the ideological divide in less than a week. Some kinda record there.

41 William Barnett-Lewis  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 3:23:23pm

re: #39 ProLifeLiberal

Haven't heard I it is okay to do the topic change or not. I wanted a sounding board to see if you thought of this guy, based on his commentary, the way I do.

Page it. That's a better place for queries like yours. I promise to read and comment if you do.

42 wrenchwench  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 3:25:31pm

re: #28 HappyWarrior

I still think the worst lie regarding PP that the right wing put on the table was that abortion is federally funded. It's been banned since the Hyde Amendment but that doesn't stop Republican candidates and right wing pundits from spreading bullshit.

The Hyde Amendment has to be renewed every year, so they have to keep the outrage levels high at all times.

43 jamesfirecat  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 3:29:21pm

re: #42 wrenchwench

The Hyde Amendment has to be renewed every year, so they have to keep the outrage levels high at all times.

It's a perpetual revulsion machine if you will...

44 makeitstop  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 3:29:39pm

re: #24 HappyWarrior

I'd just love for Karen Handel to stare my cousin and his husband in the eyes and tell them they're not good parents simply because they're gay.

She probably would, and she wouldn't feel the slightest twinge of conscience while doing so.

As I've related here before - I have a wingnut sister, and she told my Catholic sister in no uncertain terms, to her face, that she was going to hell for being a Catholic.

To them, they are right, and that's that. It fucking sickens me.

45 Shvaughn  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 3:31:58pm

re: #42 wrenchwench

The Hyde Amendment has to be renewed every year, so they have to keep the outrage levels high at all times.

The Hyde Amendment is a disgrace to our country.

I was quite pleased when one of Barack Obama's first actions as President was to overturn the Global Gag Rule.

46 engineer cat  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 3:36:22pm

Handel Says Gay Parents Not as

i would have to say that her background is clearly not appropriate for her position with the organization

47 JeffFX  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 3:36:25pm

re: #27 WindUpBird

republicans are death

I didn't always agree with that, but the constant parade of insane ultra-conservative republicans over the past 20 years has me convinced. Real lives are in danger when Republicans get power. They need to be reformed or contained.

48 Charles Johnson  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 3:37:30pm

Going by Twitter, all hell is breaking loose in Syria. The city of Homs is being attacked by government forces with heavy artillery.

49 Ming  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 3:39:25pm

I hope we won't get to the point where there are two parallel universes, like a "liberal" breast cancer foundation, a "conservative" breast cancer foundation, a "liberal" charity to help orphans, a "conservative" charity to help orphans, doctors who treat Democrats, doctors who treat Republicans, schools that teach creationism, schools that teach evolution, etc.

Of course, we already have many of these "parallel institutions". Unfortunately, this Komen fiasco is another step along that road.

50 JeffFX  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 3:44:56pm

re: #49 Ming

If it's anything like Wikipedia vs. Conservapedia, then the divide isn't liberals vs. social conservatives. It's sane people vs. some morons who were raised with lies and can't handle the truth.

Anyone with a brain gets the hell out of these conservative subcultures as soon as they're old enough to get out of their parent's house, and the movement is left with the dullards that just accept the bigoted, ignorant, social conservative lifestyle.

Can't really hate them for being monsters, they're too stupid to know any better.

51 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 3:45:47pm
52 Shvaughn  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 3:46:30pm

re: #49 Ming

I hope we won't get to the point where there are two parallel universes, like a "liberal" breast cancer foundation, a "conservative" breast cancer foundation, a "liberal" charity to help orphans, a "conservative" charity to help orphans, doctors who treat Democrats, doctors who treat Republicans, schools that teach creationism, schools that teach evolution, etc.

Of course, we already have many of these "parallel institutions". Unfortunately, this Komen fiasco is another step along that road.

It isn't just an accident that such things are happening. This is indeed part of the game plan by the right -- they WANT to have such division in society. There's a REASON that many religious conservatives will only buy from certain companies and that they love creating "evangelical Christian" doppelgangers of existing structures.

This is part of their plan. It's intentional.

53 Shvaughn  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 3:47:25pm
54 celticdragon  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 3:47:50pm

Unintentionally hilarious and self revealing comment from a very concerned Catholic woman...

Erin Manning, on February 3rd, 2012 at 2:36 pm Said:

Rod writes, “Sexual autonomy is the one great sacrament of the Left, which is to say, our mainstream US media.”

That’s not entirely true. The Left is picky about the kind of sexual autonomy it endorses. It emphatically does NOT endorse the kind of autonomy that chooses virginity, chastity, abstinence, and the welcoming of children as gifts and blessings to a stable married man and woman. It only endorses rampant lasciviousness and unchastity, skankery, whorishness, contraceptive sex, abortion, and various forms of sexual deviance and pornographic immersion–all of which it calls “health.”

You got me, Erin. I want more whores, skanks and birth control for everybody. How did you ever discover my evil plan?

I actually used to try to debate her, but I soon discovered that anything lead back to "the teaching of the church" and that she didn't have a mind of her own.

55 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 3:48:23pm

So what happens if a male & female couple get married, have a mess of kids, and then OOPS! turns out Dad's been gay all this time. Coming out to yourself can be just as difficult as coming out to the rest of the world. I know people who were in long-term heterosexual relationships before figuring out their identity.

So if that happens, is it (according to Handel) time for CPS to swoop in and take the kids away (you know, for stability)? What if they stay married anyway? What if both Dad AND Mom turn out to be gay? Stranger things have happened.

56 Targetpractice  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 3:49:14pm
57 Shvaughn  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 3:54:07pm

re: #54 celticdragon

Unintentionally hilarious and self revealing comment from a very concerned Catholic woman...

You got me, Erin. I want more whores, skanks and birth control for everybody. How did you ever discover my evil plan?

I actually used to try to debate her, but I soon discovered that anything lead back to "the teaching of the church" and that she didn't have a mind of her own.

If she were worth debating, you could drop her a link like this one or or that one which point out that Red States are full of divorce and other conservative skankery.

58 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 3:57:13pm

re: #50 JeffFX

Anyone with a brain gets the hell out of these conservative subcultures as soon as they're old enough to get out of their parent's house, and the movement is left with the dullards that just accept the bigoted, ignorant, social conservative lifestyle.

I think you're underestimating the power of peer pressure, particularly within families. A person who decides "enough's enough" at age 40, married, with kids suddenly has to either stay in what to them is a horrifyingly oppressive environment, or split up their family, fuck up the kids, and generally cause all sorts of misery. If you wake up one day and realize that youstrongly disagree with everyone around you, it can be a very dangerous thing both emotionally and even physically if what you're disagreeing about is what they genuinely and sincerely believe to be the will of the creator of the universe. There are people who really believe in angels and demons and related nonsense. If they think that you, just by not being one of them, could imperil the eternal fate of their immortal souls, you can rest assured that it's going to be you who are expected to conform to them, and not the reverse. I seem to remember some guy saying something about religion poisoning everything...

59 [deleted]  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 3:57:44pm
60 Targetpractice  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 4:04:20pm

Hold on to your hats, folks, because the movie sensation of the year opens in October.

No, I don't mean The Dark Knight Rises or The Avengers got moved back, I mean the big, "can't miss" movie of the year:

I talk, of course, about Atlas Shrugged: Part 2///

Atlas Shrugged: Part Two Will Likely Hit Theaters Right Before The Election

61 sattv4u2  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 4:04:49pm

re: #59 ProLifeLiberal

I put it up.

TO EVERYONE: DON'T TWEET IT! I have my reasons.

Why not??

Image: tweety-bird-by-pyteck.jpg

//

62 goddamnedfrank  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 4:05:30pm

re: #59 ProLifeLiberal

FYI Telling people not to tweet something is a guaranteed way to get it tweeted. This isn't a closed forum and not everyone who reads LGF has your interests at heart.

63 darthstar  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 4:05:35pm

Why do I fet the feeling her days at Komen could be numbered?

64 ProGunLiberal  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 4:08:06pm

re: #62 goddamnedfrank

Thanks for the heads-up.

65 darthstar  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 4:08:10pm
66 JeffFX  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 4:08:23pm

re: #58 negativ

I'm sure it's very hard for someone who wakes up at 40, but that person spent 40 years avoiding pointing their critical thinking skills at the local superstitions.

I'm talking about the massive brain-drain of everyone who realized that their parents were misled as soon as they gained the ability to think, which for me happened when I was about 10 years old, but more often happens in the teen years. These people get themselves to civilization as soon as they can.

The whole social conservative movement selects for ignorance by alienating anyone who's interested in the truth, including their own children.

67 Prideful, Arrogant Marriage Equality Advocate  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 4:10:39pm

"As a Christian this" "As a Christian that".
I really wish these Evangelical Fundamentalist Christians would get over their gigantic ego and realize they do not speak for all Christians!

68 darthstar  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 4:10:51pm

Romney's spokesperson on Hardball is pathetic...from the cheap hair piece to his panicked defense of Romney's "I'm not concerned about the poor" comment...the guy's shitting himeself in fear while Sue "Chickens for checkups" Lowden (for Gingrich) sits silent...grateful she's not being asked too much.

69 ProGunLiberal  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 4:11:33pm

Charles, can I request you delete my post #59? Please?

70 darthstar  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 4:12:30pm

re: #67 Cankles McCellulite

"As a Christian this" "As a Christian that".
I really wish these Evangelical Fundamentalist Christians would get over their gigantic ego and realize they do not speak for all Christians!

As a Christian mocking athiest, I have to say I agree with you.

71 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 4:12:56pm

Future headline "PRESIDENT ROMNEY STARTS WWIII! Claims he misspoke"

72 Varek Raith  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 4:13:35pm

re: #70 darthstar

As a Christian mocking athiest, I have to say I agree with you.

As a jerk, I say feck off!
/

73 JeffFX  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 4:13:43pm

re: #67 Cankles McCellulite

That's just their way of saying that their particular version of Christianity is the reason they say whatever nonsense they're going to say. It's true too. They wouldn't say these awful things if they hadn't been indoctrinated in their warped, hate-based, goatee-wearing, alternate version of Christianity.

74 darthstar  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 4:14:33pm

re: #72 Varek Raith

As a jerk, I say feck off!
/

You've got a ways to go before you can call yourself a jerk.

75 Targetpractice  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 4:14:53pm

re: #71 Dreggas

Future headline "PRESIDENT ROMNEY STARTS WWIII! Claims he misspoke"

"President Romney quoted as called Russian PM 'Scum-sucking bastard.'"

Next day's headline:

"Romney claims misspeak, actually meant Russian PM's enemies are 'scum-sucking bastards.'"

76 Prideful, Arrogant Marriage Equality Advocate  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 4:15:11pm

re: #70 darthstar
I am a non believer as well but have found it necessary to come to the defense of the Christian religion because these Fundamentalist idiots have sh&* on it for far too long.

77 Varek Raith  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 4:15:35pm

re: #74 darthstar

You've got a ways to go before you can call yourself a jerk.

Oh, I can do worse.
I just value my account more than the title of 'jerk'.
:P

78 Shvaughn  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 4:15:49pm
79 ProGunLiberal  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 4:19:04pm

Thank you Charles!!! :)

80 Shvaughn  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 4:19:34pm

re: #78 Shvaughn

Er, I should say, the gun retailer lied.

81 zora  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 4:20:51pm

re: #68 darthstar

Romney's spokesperson on Hardball is pathetic...from the cheap hair piece to his panicked defense of Romney's "I'm not concerned about the poor" comment...the guy's shitting himeself in fear while Sue "Chickens for checkups" Lowden (for Gingrich) sits silent...grateful she's not being asked too much.

[Link: www.buzzfeed.com...]

Mitt Romney: We Are The Only People Who Put Their Hand Over Our Hearts During The National Anthem

82 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 4:25:06pm

re: #81 zora

so much fail...

83 Varek Raith  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 4:25:36pm

re: #81 zora

[Link: www.buzzfeed.com...]

Mitt Romney: We Are The Only People Who Put Their Hand Over Our Hearts During The National Anthem

The melody of the Star Spangled Banner is an English wine song.

84 darthstar  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 4:25:39pm

re: #81 zora

[Link: www.buzzfeed.com...]

Mitt Romney: We Are The Only People Who Put Their Hand Over Our Hearts During The National Anthem

Fuck...I didn't realize Mitt was that ignorant.

Just because:
Image: 429984_268305736572679_212147665521820_640978_1663979165_n.jpg

85 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 4:25:44pm

I sense a disturbance in the force...like a poor post crying out and then disappearing forever...

86 Targetpractice  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 4:26:02pm

re: #51 Dreggas

Orly Taitz loses to an empty table

Gets better on reviewing the actual documents. You don't even have to get far see where Taitz and the other "plaintiffs" screwed themselves over. Under ordinary circumstances, the judge would have by law been forced to enter a default judgment in their favor due to failure by Obama and his lawyer to appear. But since they requested the case go forward, so to as to be decided on its merits, the judge granted their request...and then found that the case had no merit and tossed it.

87 darthstar  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 4:27:05pm

re: #82 Dreggas

so much fail...

I like that there's a picture of Carter & Castro as well...just because the Carter haters are so fucked in the head they'll use it as an excuse to believe Romney regardless of the facts.

88 Varek Raith  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 4:28:41pm
89 b_sharp  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 4:30:33pm

re: #7 wrenchwench

Well, gosh, can't argue with that kind of logic.

I'm all a gog.

90 darthstar  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 4:30:43pm

re: #88 Varek Raith

Izzard should be a lizard...he'd do well here.

91 Varek Raith  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 4:32:21pm

re: #90 darthstar

Izzard should be a lizard...he'd do well here.

I'd die laughing in every thread.
XD

92 sattv4u2  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 4:32:28pm

re: #89 b_sharp

I'm all a gog.

Image: agog.gif

93 sattv4u2  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 4:32:40pm

re: #92 sattv4u2

Image: agog.gif

dern

94 Killgore Trout  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 4:34:07pm

Report: At least 128 people killed in Syria's Homs

At least 128 people were killed in shelling by Syrian forces in the city of Homs, the Syrian Observatory For Human Rights said on Saturday.

"At least 128 people were killed in Homs, of them 112 were killed in Khalidya (district of Homs)," Rami Abdulrahman, head of the British-based group, told Reuters, citing witnesses.

95 darthstar  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 4:34:23pm

re: #92 sattv4u2

Image: agog.gif

Thou shalt not steal from blogspot.

96 b_sharp  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 4:35:47pm

re: #31 ProLifeLiberal

Question:

I wanted to change the topic because of something the Salafi President of MSA put up on his FB. I wanted you opinions. Would that be okay?

If you want to create a sidebar discussion, just go for it. If people aren't interested they'll just scroll on by.

97 Killgore Trout  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 4:36:16pm

TPM doubles down on the "Israel Firster" slur...
Why the "Israel First" Meme Matters

I certainly set off a firestorm with my use of the term "Israel Firster." Other people use it too but I was the guy who popularized it recently and who used it hundreds of times. The others who utilize the term did so occasionally, often citing me. So I am the main "miscreant" on this score.

And I am proud that I created the controversy because it is an important one.

98 sattv4u2  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 4:36:19pm

re: #95 darthstar

Thou shalt not steal from blogspot.

A thousand lashes for me


Image: false-eyelashes03.jpg

99 Killgore Trout  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 4:36:59pm

re: #96 b_sharp

If you want to create a sidebar discussion, just go for it. If people aren't interested they'll just scroll on by.

I'd be interested.

100 MittDoesNotCompute  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 4:37:45pm

re: #98 sattv4u2

A thousand lashes for me

Image: false-eyelashes03.jpg

Ewwww, just fucking ewwww...

101 sattv4u2  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 4:38:32pm

re: #100 talon_262

Ewww, just fucking ewww...

eyelashist!

102 JeffFX  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 4:39:11pm

re: #98 sattv4u2

A thousand lashes for me

Image: false-eyelashes03.jpg

Hot!

103 b_sharp  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 4:39:21pm

re: #48 Charles

Going by Twitter, all hell is breaking loose in Syria. The city of Homs is being attacked by government forces with heavy artillery.

Oh crap.
This is a tragic example of the power hungry ignoring the powerless.

104 ProGunLiberal  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 4:40:29pm

re: #96 b_sharp

Made a page for it.

105 darthstar  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 4:41:14pm

re: #97 Killgore Trout

TPM doubles down on the "Israel Firster" slur...
Why the "Israel First" Meme Matters

Why is it a "slur"? If you want to put Israel's policies ahead of America's that's your perogative. If you're from Israel, it's even understandable. But if you think war with Iran will do anything other than send thousands of American troops to their deaths and sink our already fragile (but recovering) economy, then you go ahead and take that stand.

I'll just reserve the right to call you fucking crazy.

106 Killgore Trout  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 4:44:26pm

re: #104 ProLifeLiberal

Made a page for it.

To sum up: I suspect extremist sympathies.
I tend to agree, especially with the "eye for an eye" comment. Not terribly surprising though.

107 b_sharp  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 4:46:22pm

re: #92 sattv4u2

Image: agog.gif

I'M GOING BLIND! I CAN"T SEE THE PICTURE!

108 ProGunLiberal  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 4:46:33pm

re: #106 Killgore Trout

I'll be talking to the Imam I talked to last Wednesday then. See what to do next.

The Imam in question helped me a bit with the stuff with my family, and with MSA stuff to a point as well. He's a pretty awesome guy, the Imam.

109 Killgore Trout  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 4:47:56pm

re: #105 darthstar

Why is it a "slur"? If you want to put Israel's policies ahead of America's that's your perogative. If you're from Israel, it's even understandable. But if you think war with Iran will do anything other than send thousands of American troops to their deaths and sink our already fragile (but recovering) economy, then you go ahead and take that stand.

I'll just reserve the right to call you fucking crazy.

Because it's a misrepresentation, a straw man. Not everyone who defends Israel is a double agent. Believe it or not there are people involved in AIPAC who are progressing liberals. They are not traitors. I can understand that they're not welcome on the left but that should lead to name calling and offensive slurs questioning their loyalty.

110 engineer cat  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 4:48:37pm

que mi semano era molto insano con mischegasso mucho mucho

111 Killgore Trout  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 4:49:01pm

re: #108 ProLifeLiberal

I'll be talking to the Imam I talked to last Wednesday then. See what to do next.

Sounds like a good thing to do.

112 engineer cat  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 4:49:56pm

mis cervelles sont ganz vermischt

113 b_sharp  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 4:51:09pm

re: #110 engineer dog

que mi semano era molto insano con mischegasso mucho mucho

Sorry man, but I don't understand anything but Canadian.

114 Olsonist  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 4:52:02pm

re: #113 b_sharp

que mi semano era molto insano con mischegasso mucho mucho, eh?

115 Killgore Trout  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 4:52:17pm

re: #109 Killgore Trout

Because it's a misrepresentation, a straw man. Not everyone who defends Israel is a double agent. Believe it or not there are people involved in AIPAC who are progressing liberals. They are not traitors. I can understand that they're not welcome on the left but that should lead to name calling and offensive slurs questioning their loyalty.

I'll also add that the idea that Israel somehow controls US foreign policy is another antisemitic conspiracy theory. Like the term Israel Firster has been used by antiesemites and neonazis long before the left adopted it.

116 engineer cat  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 4:53:04pm

re: #114 Olsonist

que mi semano era molto insano con mischegasso mucho mucho, eh?

pero si, landesman - es el eppis!

117 sattv4u2  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 4:53:50pm

re: #113 b_sharp

Sorry man, but I don't understand anything but Canadian.

Thank goodness someone does, eh, ya hoser!

118 b_sharp  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 4:54:55pm

re: #114 Olsonist

que mi semano era molto insano con mischegasso mucho mucho, eh?

kapow!!

119 sattv4u2  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 4:55:33pm

Okay ,, this will be the 5th time I've reheated this damn cup of coffee

damn clients,, keep calling here ,, "I want this ,,, we need that ,,"

120 b_sharp  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 4:58:00pm

re: #117 sattv4u2

Thank goodness someone does, eh, ya hoser!

Just so you know, I'm sending my sled dogs to piss in your yard.

121 Olsonist  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 4:58:01pm

re: #115 Killgore Trout

I'll also add that the idea that Israel somehow controls US foreign policy is another antisemitic conspiracy theory. Like the term Israel Firster has been used by antiesemites and neonazis long before the left adopted it.

Umm, so has the term bicycle although, to be clear, the Left uses that term more.

122 b_sharp  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 5:03:17pm
'Sullivan says "When an American sides with a foreign government against his own president in a foreign country, what does one call that? Apart, that is, from disgusting."'

They're called 'free citizens'.

If I want to side with a foreign country's specific plans over my own country's or if I want to bitch and complain about the actions of my government, I expect you to call me 'sir'.

123 Obdicut  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 5:03:19pm

re: #115 Killgore Trout

I'll also add that the idea that Israel somehow controls US foreign policy is another antisemitic conspiracy theory. Like the term Israel Firster has been used by antiesemites and neonazis long before the left adopted it.

The left has not adopted it, but otherwise, yes. The main reason to avoid the term is that it's horrifically tainted, and carries shitloads of baggage.

124 sattv4u2  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 5:03:28pm

re: #120 b_sharp

Just so you know, I'm sending my sled dogs to piss in your yard.

You coming with him??

Image: AG%20CSDC%2009%201%20dog%20Sat.jpg

125 Obdicut  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 5:04:33pm

re: #121 Olsonist

Umm, so has the term bicycle although, to be clear, the Left uses that term more.

But the term we're talking about isn't 'bicycle'.

126 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 5:06:18pm

Evening Lizardim. So, this thing just keeps getting darker and darker for SGK. It looks like they really have screwed the pooch, so to speak.

127 ProGunLiberal  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 5:06:38pm

re: #111 Killgore Trout

Still a piece of good news here:

The guy comes from and is an exchange student from Saudi Arabia. He's not ours (the US).

128 b_sharp  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 5:08:32pm
129 Targetpractice  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 5:09:00pm

re: #126 thedopefishlives

Evening Lizardim. So, this thing just keeps getting darker and darker for SGK. It looks like they really have screwed the pooch, so to speak.

It happens when you claim to be non-political, and then make a very political decision.

130 darthstar  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 5:10:27pm

re: #125 Obdicut

But the term we're talking about isn't 'bicycle'.

Bicyclist.

131 Shvaughn  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 5:11:15pm

re: #106 Killgore Trout

To sum up: I suspect extremist sympathies.
I tend to agree, especially with the "eye for an eye" comment. Not terribly surprising though.

Do you think there's a difference between Muslims being accused of "extremist sympathies" and supporters of Israel being accused of being "Israel-firsters"? If so, what do you see as the difference?

132 Obdicut  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 5:13:44pm

re: #131 Shvaughn

Do you think there's a difference between Muslims being accused of "extremist sympathies" and supporters of Israel being accused of being "Israel-firsters"? If so, what do you see as the difference?

Kind of a weird question. Muslims in general don't have extremist sympathies. Some supporters of Israel might be 'israel-first'-- like Israelis.

How are you defining "Israel-Firster"? That's a big part of the problem here.

The biggest similarity there is "Israel firster" and "extremist sympathies" are both very poorly defined.

133 darthstar  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 5:14:55pm

re: #131 Shvaughn

Do you think there's a difference between Muslims being accused of "extremist sympathies" and supporters of Israel being accused of being "Israel-firsters"? If so, what do you see as the difference?

Nobody likes to be labeled. Labelling classifies you into a group...and all the shit that goes with that group is now yours by generous association with said label.

134 b_sharp  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 5:16:35pm

re: #133 darthstar

Nobody likes to be labeled. Labelling classifies you into a group...and all the shit that goes with that group is now yours by generous association with said label.

Oh stop being such a philosopher.

135 Shvaughn  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 5:17:13pm

re: #132 Obdicut

Kind of a weird question. Muslims in general don't have extremist sympathies. Some supporters of Israel might be 'israel-first'-- like Israelis.

How are you defining "Israel-Firster"? That's a big part of the problem here.

The biggest similarity there is "Israel firster" and "extremist sympathies" are both very poorly defined.

Well, I'm referring specifically to the guy at the MSA in ProLifeLiberal's post.

It seems like a bit of labeling to jump straight to "extremist sympathies" (which has a long and recent history of anti-Muslim prejudice) in the same way that Killgore rightly objects to "Israel Firster" as being anti-Semitic labeling.

So I am wondering if he has any thoughts on whether it would be a good idea to back down from "extremist sympathies" (and emphasis on someone's apparent non-American-ness) in the same way that backing off from "Israel Firster" is a good idea.

136 darthstar  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 5:17:14pm

re: #134 b_sharp

Oh stop being such a philosopher.

I've got stones like Harry Potter.

137 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 5:17:48pm

re: #123 Obdicut

The left has not adopted it, but otherwise, yes. The main reason to avoid the term is that it's horrifically tainted, and carries shitloads of baggage.

How 'bout:
An American citizen who makes really crazy shit up about the President of the US in order to push the right wing party of Israel and their goals.

Better?

138 Shvaughn  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 5:18:43pm

re: #137 Stanley Sea

How 'bout:
An American citizen who makes really crazy shit up about the President of the US in order to push the right wing party of Israel and their goals.

Better?

I wonder if "Likud Firster" would be a better term.

139 ProGunLiberal  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 5:19:40pm

re: #135 Shvaughn

To be fair, me and this guy haven't seen eye to eye for well over a year.

140 Obdicut  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 5:20:13pm

Using a term like "Israel-firster", like using "Barry" to refer to Obama or "Illegal" to refer to an undocumented alien, can be not a big deal, or it can signify something. One of the main ways to discern is if someone refuses to not use the term, and gets defensive about it. The English language is very broad. It's easy to come up with another term, or a phrase, to describe something.

Often, phrases like "Israel firster" are used by people who would prefer not to spell out exactly what they're saying-- in the context I've heard it in the US, it's an accusation that a US citizen is putting the welfare-- however defined-- of another nation in front of the US's. It's an accusation of being a traitor, leveled against Jews-- the same sort of accusation that Jews have faced for a long time.

The thing is, there's plenty of times when considering another nations interests above the obvious interests of the US is deemed a good thing. When the typhoon hit, those pushing for aid for the affected countries weren't called "Phillipines Firsters", those who wanted to send aid to Haiti weren't called "Haiti Firsters".

Someone may very well have Israel's interests as a high priority-- and think it should be high priority of the United States. That doesn't deserve its own special creepy borrowed-from-neo-nazis phrase.

141 Shvaughn  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 5:21:21pm

re: #139 ProLifeLiberal

To be fair, me and this guy haven't seen eye to eye for well over a year.

I realize that. The guy defending the use of "Israel First" at TPM also has had a long history of personal interactions and disagreement with his own targets, too -- i.e. AIPAC.

142 Obdicut  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 5:21:33pm

re: #137 Stanley Sea

How 'bout:
An American citizen who makes really crazy shit up about the President of the US in order to push the right wing party of Israel and their goals.

Better?

That's much better, especially since it acknowledges Israel isn't a monolithic unit, and a lot of what is being pushed by that person is not what a lot of the citizens of Israel would want.

143 Killgore Trout  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 5:23:17pm

re: #135 Shvaughn

Well, I'm referring specifically to the guy at the MSA in ProLifeLiberal's post.

It seems like a bit of labeling to jump straight to "extremist sympathies" (which has a long and recent history of anti-Muslim prejudice) in the same way that Killgore rightly objects to "Israel Firster" as being anti-Semitic labeling.

So I am wondering if he has any thoughts on whether it would be a good idea to back down from "extremist sympathies" (and emphasis on someone's apparent non-American-ness) in the same way that backing off from "Israel Firster" is a good idea.

Well, the MSA guy was advocating "eye for an eye" justice against US soldiers. I think that might be a sign that he might be a problem based on his own statement, not based on his participation in MSA.
Now groups like MSA and CAIR have had a series of problems and connections to terrorist groups like Hamas. I'm not so much concerned about their patriotism as much as the security risks involved in terrorism.

144 ProGunLiberal  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 5:23:48pm

re: #141 Shvaughn

I think, as you said, Likud-First would be better.

However, I don't think my characterization of the particular guy I paged about was wrong.

145 Obdicut  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 5:24:02pm

To put it another way "Israel-firster" is jingoistic, semi-isolationist term that doesn't fit well at all with the general foreign policy ideals of the 'left' in the US, where the welfare of other countries is definitely an interest of the US.

146 Killgore Trout  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 5:26:37pm

re: #140 Obdicut

Someone may very well have Israel's interests as a high priority-- and think it should be high priority of the United States. That doesn't deserve its own special creepy borrowed-from-neo-nazis phrase.

Agreed. I think it's incredibly tone deaf for TPM, Think Progress and Media Matters to continue defending the use of the term. It's perfectly possible to dissagree with Al Sharpton without using racially charged terminology, same is possible with criticisms of Israel and its supporters.

147 darthstar  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 5:26:40pm

re: #138 Shvaughn

I wonder if "Likud Firster" would be a better term.

Wing nuts are wing nuts. They'll do anything to get Obama out of office...including stoking a global war (as if someone as milky as Mitt Romney would be able to step in and "fix" everything).

And war with Iran would be global...yes, regional to start, but soon every country would be suffering as a direct result.

148 Shvaughn  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 5:27:18pm

re: #143 Killgore Trout

Well, the MSA guy was advocating "eye for an eye" justice against US soldiers. I think that might be a sign that he might be a problem based on his own statement, not based on his participation in MSA.
Now groups like MSA and CAIR have had a series of problems and connections to terrorist groups like Hamas. I'm not so much concerned about their patriotism as much as the security risks involved in terrorism.

So, okay, unfair labeling that ties in with historically bigoted ideas about other people is find as long as it's against Muslims, cuz it's true about them. Am I understanding you correctly?

(BTW, "eye for an eye" justice doesn't usually refer to terrorism or vigilanteism, but rather that the justice system should mete out punishment that fits the crime.)

149 sattv4u2  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 5:27:23pm

I SO have to buy me one of these

[Link: www.cafepress.com...]

Thank goodness the grocery stores give free plastic bags or else I'd be poor buying doggie doo ones

150 ProGunLiberal  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 5:28:02pm

re: #143 Killgore Trout

This particular MSA branch has an interesting history.

The Imam, when I talked to him 10 days ago, said that he usually prefers an American President of the group. Apparently, in OKC, there are also so influential Muslim Families who have some level of influence on the group.

The issue here was the fact that many of these family's kids are Pre-Meds, taking 16-19 hours of class a week. So they didn't have the time. Unfortunately, the Saudi in Petroleum Engineering did.

And that is why we are here.

151 Obdicut  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 5:30:12pm

For example, I think the US should support and independent Kurdistan. Does that make me a Kurd-Firster? It certainly would cause a fuckload of trouble for the US, but, frankly, I don't trust the governments of Iraq or Turkey to deal at all fairly with the Kurds, and I think, sadly, an independent country is the best solution for them. I don't like ethnic Balkanization, but it's the reality there.

Of course, how to do that without ruining our relationship with Turkey, I have no clue. But it's definitely something I want, even though it'd cause problems for the US.

I'm a Kurd-firster, I guess.

152 Obdicut  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 5:30:48pm

re: #148 Shvaughn

So, okay, unfair labeling that ties in with historically bigoted ideas about other people is find as long as it's against Muslims, cuz it's true about them. Am I understanding you correctly?

Where do you get that from?

153 Killgore Trout  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 5:31:04pm

re: #151 Obdicut

I'm a Kurd-firster, I guess.

AntiKurdism!

154 Shvaughn  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 5:31:25pm

re: #152 Obdicut

Where do you get that from?

Because he brought CAIR out of the blue, when they previously hadn't been part of this conversation.

155 Olsonist  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 5:31:25pm

Perhaps Charles can weigh in on whether the term Israel Firster crosses any lines.

156 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 5:32:04pm

re: #142 Obdicut

That's much better, especially since it acknowledges Israel isn't a monolithic unit, and a lot of what is being pushed by that person is not what a lot of the citizens of Israel would want.

I thought so. Thanks.

And most LEFTIES feel this way. Some made the mistake of using that term without figuring out the bad background.

This again is another spat brought to you by the recent resident shit stirrer (regardless of the issue) KT.

bbiab

157 sattv4u2  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 5:32:17pm

re: #151 Obdicut

I'm a Kurd-firster, I guess.

Large or small??

[Link: www.google.com...]

158 jamesfirecat  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 5:32:29pm

You know what my own regret about this entire Komen thing is? It is a major progressive victory (at least the fact that we raised enough money to cover PP's loses and then some) but it came and went so quickly that the Daily Show and Colbert Report didn't get a chance to work their magic....

I can only hope that Komen continue to laugh heartily while cleaning their guns barrels pointed toward their toes....

159 Killgore Trout  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 5:32:31pm

re: #155 Olsonist

Perhaps Charles can weigh in on whether the term Israel Firster crosses any lines.

I think the ADL is a more authoritative source.

160 Obdicut  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 5:33:23pm

re: #154 Shvaughn

Because he brought CAIR out of the blue, when they previously hadn't been part of this conversation.

Even if I granted that, that still doesn't turn what he said into "unfair labeling that ties in with historically bigoted ideas about other people is find as long as it's against Muslims, cuz it's true about them."

161 b_sharp  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 5:33:28pm

re: #149 sattv4u2

I SO have to buy me one of these

[Link: www.cafepress.com...]

Thank goodness the grocery stores give free plastic bags or else I'd be poor buying doggie doo ones

My Aboriginal name is 'Talks With Mushrooms'.

162 Charles Johnson  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 5:33:31pm

re: #97 Killgore Trout

TPM doubles down on the "Israel Firster" slur...
Why the "Israel First" Meme Matters

I don't think you should take one person's blog post (in the TPM Cafe) as evidence that this is TPM's editorial policy. In fact, MJ Rosenberg has been getting a lot of criticism for his harsh language from the left too.

163 Obdicut  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 5:34:35pm

re: #156 Stanley Sea

I'm fairly sure I'm agreeing with Killgore here. The term is a bad one, with overtones of anti-semitism, it's been used by neo-nazis and white supremacists, it's inaccurate, and defending it seems pointless to me.

164 ProGunLiberal  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 5:34:40pm

re: #150 ProLifeLiberal

This probably explains why extremism is at the margins of the US Muslim Community. The elders and Imams sort of watch everything, and barricade things from getting in. It helps there is greater acceptance of Muslims in the US than in much of Europe, and that our secularism is much more flexible than France's or Turkey's. This combo only exists in Scandinavia.

This is working much better than in Europe, especially the United Kingdom. I think in the next decade, there will be a Major Terror Attack outside of Great Britain (Likely in Mainland Europe, the US, or Bangladesh) by Radicalized British Muslims.

re: #148 Shvaughn

Should have actually mentioned I'm Muslim myself. I don't think I have seen you before, so Hi!

165 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 5:35:02pm

Before I step out, read this article about Don Cornelius. Those who know who he is, know.

[Link: www.thedailybeast.com...]

166 b_sharp  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 5:35:16pm

re: #151 Obdicut

For example, I think the US should support and independent Kurdistan. Does that make me a Kurd-Firster? It certainly would cause a fuckload of trouble for the US, but, frankly, I don't trust the governments of Iraq or Turkey to deal at all fairly with the Kurds, and I think, sadly, an independent country is the best solution for them. I don't like ethnic Balkanization, but it's the reality there.

Of course, how to do that without ruining our relationship with Turkey, I have no clue. But it's definitely something I want, even though it'd cause problems for the US.

I'm a Kurd-firster, I guess.

Image: curds-and-whey.jpg

167 Obdicut  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 5:35:44pm

re: #163 Obdicut

Okay, I'm not agreeing with Killgore's normal, dumb broad brush, claiming that this is Talking Point Memo as a whole doubling down, that the term is being used by 'the left', etc.

I guess I've gotten so used to Killgore's derpy hyperbole i'm scanning past it.

168 Charles Johnson  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 5:35:48pm

re: #155 Olsonist

Perhaps Charles can weigh in on whether the term Israel Firster crosses any lines.

I don't like it, myself. It just has unsavory connotations of "dual loyalty," and if someone really needs to be criticized for putting Israel's interests ahead of America's, I think the criticism can be made without resorting to terms with an ugly history.

169 Shvaughn  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 5:36:14pm

re: #160 Obdicut

Even if I granted that, that still doesn't turn what he said into "unfair labeling that ties in with historically bigoted ideas about other people is find as long as it's against Muslims, cuz it's true about them."

You mean you see how "Israel Firster" ties into historical anti-Semitism, but you don't see how "extremist sympathies" as a label is the same kind of wink-nudge, dog-whistling bigotry against another group?

To me it's jarring to see someone be right on one issue ("Israel Firster" is not the kind of terminology that should be tossed around), but then approve the same kind of sloppy fearmongering when used against Muslims.

170 ProGunLiberal  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 5:37:58pm

re: #169 Shvaughn

Thing is, the guy in question has been on my radar for about a year after saying some curious statements about the Taliban.

171 Killgore Trout  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 5:38:22pm

re: #169 Shvaughn

His fellow Muslim, ProLifeLib, agrees and is concerned enough to talk to his imam about it.

172 Olsonist  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 5:38:36pm

Fine but for the record, the ADL uses it.

173 Killgore Trout  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 5:39:42pm

re: #172 Olsonist

Fine but for the record, the ADL uses it.

Uh... did you read that article?

174 Shvaughn  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 5:39:54pm

re: #164 ProLifeLiberal

re: #148 Shvaughn

Should have actually mentioned I'm Muslim myself. I don't think I have seen you before, so Hi!

Hi!

(Just to note, M.J. Rosenberg, the guy using "Israel Firster" over at TPMcafe, is Jewish -- so there's a parallel.)

175 Obdicut  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 5:40:15pm

re: #169 Shvaughn

You mean you see how "Israel Firster" ties into historical anti-Semitism, but you don't see how "extremist sympathies" as a label is the same kind of wink-nudge, dog-whistling bigotry against another group?

Nope. I see 'extremist sympathies' as a description of someone talking about 'eye for an eye' as a defensible descriptor. You don't?

176 darthstar  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 5:40:17pm

re: #149 sattv4u2

I SO have to buy me one of these

[Link: www.cafepress.com...]

Thank goodness the grocery stores give free plastic bags or else I'd be poor buying doggie doo ones

The area where I live has poop-bag dispensers at multiple places around the neighborhood, and not just the kind where people stuff them with left over grocery bags...nice ones with rolls of bags and garbage cans next to them. I always leave the house with two bags (two dogs) and re-up on my walk if I use one or more.

177 Varek Raith  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 5:41:12pm

It's so simple not to use a term.
No?
;)

178 jamesfirecat  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 5:42:41pm

re: #177 Varek Raith

It's so simple not to use a term.
No?
;)

Some people never quite seem to get the hang of it, but on the other hand Charles seems to make sure we don't have to deal with them all that often...

179 ProGunLiberal  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 5:42:59pm

re: #171 Killgore Trout

It helps that I tend to be Ottoman-esque, and look to the Islamic Golden Age and Saladin.

I know how stupid what this guy thinks is because of that, and the history of the Sauds compounds that.

180 Shvaughn  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 5:43:08pm

re: #175 Obdicut

Nope. I see 'extremist sympathies' as a description of someone talking about 'eye for an eye' as a defensible descriptor. You don't?

But if someone says "I see 'Israel Firster' as a description of someone who values Israel over the US' as a defensible descriptor," you'd think they're using loaded, anti-Semitic language, wouldn't you?

I don't see a call for "eye for an eye justice" as inherently symbolic of extremist terrorist leanings. In fact, it seems to me that it's a basis of a lot of legal systems.

181 Olsonist  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 5:43:26pm

re: #175 Obdicut

Extremist sympathies is every bit a dog whistle for dual loyalties.

182 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 5:44:16pm

re: #177 Varek Raith

It's so simple not to use a term.
No?
;)

Firs before slurs, bro.
Image: EANmS.jpg

183 Obdicut  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 5:44:19pm

re: #180 Shvaughn

But if someone says "I see 'Israel Firster' as a description of someone who values Israel over the US' as a defensible descriptor," you'd think they're using loaded, anti-Semitic language, wouldn't you?

Well, I'd think they were wrong that it's a defensible descriptor.

Do you think it's defensible?

I don't see a call for "eye for an eye justice" as inherently symbolic of extremist terrorist leanings. In fact, it seems to me that it's a basis of a lot of legal systems.

Really? Name one.

184 b_sharp  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 5:44:22pm

re: #177 Varek Raith

It's so simple not to use a term.
No?
;)

You mean like when people call you Jar Jar Binks behind your back.

185 ProGunLiberal  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 5:44:38pm

re: #180 Shvaughn

Legal systems that are outdated.

The Vikings used it. The history of the blood-feuds is amazing and horrifying. They eventually came up with the theory of "Wereglid," or Blood Money. This is also common in the Muslim World.

186 Shvaughn  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 5:44:43pm

re: #172 Olsonist

Fine but for the record, the ADL uses it.

No, they don't. This comment by you is embarrassing.

187 sattv4u2  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 5:45:45pm

re: #176 darthstar

The area where I live has poop-bag dispensers at multiple places around the neighborhood, and not just the kind where people stuff them with left over grocery bags...nice ones with rolls of bags and garbage cans next to them. I always leave the house with two bags (two dogs) and re-up on my walk if I use one or more.

The park close to us has those all along the walking trails also

188 ProGunLiberal  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 5:46:00pm

re: #185 ProLifeLiberal

Also, Hatfields and McCoys.

189 Obdicut  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 5:46:52pm

re: #181 Olsonist

Extremist sympathies is every bit a dog whistle for dual loyalties.

You know, that dude who we put in jail for spying for Israel, he really did have dual loyalties. And we really did arrest him and put him in prison for acting in that way. Likewise, there really are people-- not just Muslims-- with extremist sympathies. They're not non-existent.

Again, it really seems what most people mean by "Israel-firster" is "They favor the right-wing political element in Israel and want the US government to do likewise."

190 Shvaughn  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 5:46:58pm

re: #183 Obdicut

Really? Name one.

The basis for the death penalty in the U.S., for example, is based on the notion of "eye for an eye." The idea that if you kill someone, the punishment should be that you are killed.

I don't see all death penalty supporters as being extremist terrorists.

191 Varek Raith  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 5:48:59pm

re: #184 b_sharp

You mean like when people call you Jar Jar Binks behind your back.

*ZZZAAAAPPP*

192 b_sharp  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 5:49:02pm

re: #190 Shvaughn

The basis for the death penalty in the U.S., for example, is based on the notion of "eye for an eye." The idea that if you kill someone, the punishment should be that you are killed.

I don't see all death penalty supporters as being extremist terrorists.

Maybe if I wasn't so tired I'd be able to figure out where you're going with this.

Unfortunately, I'm lost.

193 ProGunLiberal  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 5:49:36pm

re: #189 Obdicut

Which is why they should be called Likud-Firsters. Don't defame all of Israel for a bunch of over-conservative dingbats with a very, very dubious history.

194 Obdicut  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 5:49:59pm

re: #190 Shvaughn

The basis for the death penalty in the U.S., for example, is based on the notion of "eye for an eye."

No, it's not. That may be a small part of it, but mostly it's based on the idea that the murder shouldn't be allowed to murder again, and for deterrence effect. The idea of vengeance is, when cited, cited distantly.

And that would not be an example of the basis of a legal system, but the basis of one small corner of the legal system.

I don't see all death penalty supporters as being extremist terrorists.

Well, I'm adamantly anti-death penalty. But again: That's not an example of a legal system, just one small aspect of the legal system.

You claimed eye for an eye formed the basis of a lot of legal systems. Can you name any that it forms the basis for?

195 Shvaughn  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 5:50:16pm

re: #192 b_sharp

Maybe if I wasn't so tired I'd be able to figure out where you're going with this.

Unfortunately, I'm lost.

I'm not trying to defend the guy's every belief (especially since I don't agree with him), but I wonder why calling him a terrorist is cool and groovy, but "Israel Firster" is wrong.

Oh, right, because that's the way Killgore Trout swings.

196 JEA62  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 5:50:28pm

I'm no fan of this woman, but unless there is some evidence that Komen is anti-gay (I don't know of any), this isn't germane to the discussion.

197 Obdicut  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 5:51:04pm

re: #193 ProLifeLiberal

Which is why they should be called Likud-Firsters. Don't defame all of Israel for a bunch of over-conservative dingbats with a very, very dubious history.

It's one of those weird states where a lot of people on the 'left' have bought into the hype from the 'right' about what Israel is like, and they think the right-wing governing coalition represents Israel monolithically.

198 b_sharp  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 5:51:13pm

re: #195 Shvaughn

I'm not trying to defend the guy's every belief (especially since I don't agree with him), but I wonder why calling him a terrorist is cool and groovy, but "Israel Firster" is wrong.

Oh, right, because that's the way Killgore Trout swings.

Is that what KT said?

199 Shvaughn  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 5:51:37pm

re: #194 Obdicut


You seem to think that "eye for an eye" is about vengeance. It's not. Look it up.

200 Obdicut  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 5:52:18pm

re: #195 Shvaughn

but I wonder why calling him a terrorist is cool and groovy,

Why are you wondering about something that didn't happen? He wasn't called a terrorist.

When you alter the facts of what actually happened to make your argument, you start reminding me of Killgore's reaction to fucking up an argument. Which, you know, irony points and performance art points, but not honest and integrity points.

201 Shvaughn  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 5:52:30pm

re: #198 b_sharp

Is that what KT said?

When he starts talking about CAIR being Hamas supporters, then yeah, it seems to me he's fine with certain dog whistles and not fine with others, quite selectively.

(And I do agree that "Israel Firster" is ugly ugly language.)

202 jaunte  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 5:53:05pm

re: #196 JEA62

I'm no fan of this woman, but unless there is some evidence that Komen is anti-gay (I don't know of any), this isn't germane to the discussion.

Why not?

203 ProGunLiberal  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 5:53:13pm

re: #197 Obdicut

Which its not. Look at the last election results. Kadima was neck-and-neck with Likud.

204 Obdicut  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 5:53:52pm

re: #199 Shvaughn

You seem to think that "eye for an eye" is about vengeance. It's not. Look it up.

Eye for an eye, in the sense it was used long, long ago, meant a proportional response. It has mutated since then to mean "at least equal vengeance", but the key portion of it is the revenge part. A harm has been done to you, so a harm is done to the one who harmed you.

Again, you claimed it formed the basis for a lot of legal systems. you have failed to provide a single legal system it forms the basis of. Can you actually do so?

205 sattv4u2  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 5:56:00pm

re: #192 b_sharp

Maybe if I wasn't so tired I'd be able to figure out where you're going with this.

Unfortunately, I'm lost.

MAPS FOR SALE ,, GETJER MAPS HERE ,,,, MAPS FOR SALE

206 Olsonist  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 5:57:03pm

re: #186 Shvaughn

Can you explain that? It is used with a definition, individuals believed to be more loyal to Israel than the U.S , in the ADL article. The definition seems reasonable and carries with it no obvious baggage. Other than quotations, there is no admonition attached.

207 darthstar  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 5:57:38pm

re: #196 JEA62

I'm no fan of this woman, but unless there is some evidence that Komen is anti-gay (I don't know of any), this isn't germane to the discussion.

Komen isn't anti-gay...just their leadership.

208 Shvaughn  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 5:58:21pm

re: #204 Obdicut

Eye for an eye, in the sense it was used long, long ago, meant a proportional response. It has mutated since then to mean "at least equal vengeance", but the key portion of it is the revenge part. A harm has been done to you, so a harm is done to the one who harmed you.

Again, you claimed it formed the basis for a lot of legal systems. you have failed to provide a single legal system it forms the basis of. Can you actually do so?

No, it means proportional punishment based on the crime. If the death penalty were simply about deterrence, then we would have capital crimes for many things that don't simply murdering someone.

Here's a start for you at figuring out what "eye for an eye" means.

(As I said, I don't agree with the guy who wrote it -- but my disagreeing with him doesn't lead me to dogwhistling that the guy is an "extremist sympathizer" and start blowing a CAIR whistle on him.)

209 darthstar  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 5:59:09pm

re: #205 sattv4u2

MAPS FOR SALE ,, GETJER MAPS HERE ,,, MAPS FOR SALE


Your maps suck!

210 Killgore Trout  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 5:59:21pm

re: #206 Olsonist

Can you explain that? It is used with a definition, individuals believed to be more loyal to Israel than the U.S , in the ADL article. The definition seems reasonable and carries with it no obvious baggage. Other than quotations, there is no admonition attached.

There's none needed for those a little familiar with the topic. The quotations are from some of the most vile and rabid antisemites.

211 b_sharp  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 5:59:36pm

re: #201 Shvaughn

When he starts talking about CAIR being Hamas supporters, then yeah, it seems to me he's fine with certain dog whistles and not fine with others, quite selectively.

(And I do agree that "Israel Firster" is ugly ugly language.)

What is the MSA?

212 Shvaughn  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 6:00:26pm

re: #206 Olsonist

Can you explain that? It is used with a definition, individuals believed to be more loyal to Israel than the U.S , in the ADL article. The definition seems reasonable and carries with it no obvious baggage. Other than quotations, there is no admonition attached.

"Individuals believed to be more loyal to Israel [/Jewishness] than the U.S. [/Christianity]" is a longstanding slur against Jews. "Israel Firster" is inaccurate for a lot of reasons (including that it erases progressive Israelis from the picture), and it's also part of a history of anti-Semitism.

There are better ways to express disagreeing with someone on Israel than calling them an "Israel Firster."

213 b_sharp  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 6:01:01pm

re: #196 JEA62

I'm no fan of this woman, but unless there is some evidence that Komen is anti-gay (I don't know of any), this isn't germane to the discussion.

It is if she allows her bias to affect her decisions in regard to Komen.

214 Obdicut  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 6:01:15pm

re: #208 Shvaughn

No, it means proportional punishment based on the crime.

Which is what I said.

in the sense it was used long, long ago, meant a proportional response.

If the death penalty were simply about deterrence, then we would have capital crimes for many things that don't simply murdering someone.

We used to.

Here's a start for you at figuring out what "eye for an eye" means.

Thanks, But as I said, it's a legally mandated proportional response-- as in, if someone takes out your eye, you're not allowed to kill them in response, the punishment is them losing an eye as well.

Did you just miss the 'proportional' part of my post, or what?

This is the third time I'll have asked you to back up your claim that many legal systems are based in the concept of an eye for an eye. Can you please back up that claim, or at least acknowledge that you're dodging the question?

215 b_sharp  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 6:02:18pm

re: #205 sattv4u2

MAPS FOR SALE ,, GETJER MAPS HERE ,,, MAPS FOR SALE

I thought there was an app for that.

216 goddamnedfrank  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 6:02:25pm

re: #196 JEA62

I'm no fan of this woman, but unless there is some evidence that Komen is anti-gay (I don't know of any), this isn't germane to the discussion.

I'm sorry, no. When you hire someone to be your VP of public policy then the kinds of public policies they've advocated in the past automatically become germane.

217 ProGunLiberal  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 6:02:35pm

re: #211 b_sharp

MSA is Muslim Student Association.

I generally liked it, but the current leader at my branch has made it cold, and he is dubious himself.

218 Shvaughn  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 6:03:40pm

re: #214 Obdicut

This is the third time I'll have asked you to back up your claim that many legal systems are based in the concept of an eye for an eye. Can you please back up that claim, or at least acknowledge that you're dodging the question?

The idea of a legally mandated proportional response is part of a lot of legal systems, including our own.

No, it doesn't mean that you literally get to pluck out someone's eye, but it does mean that if someone harms you for [X] amount, you're entitled to [X] compensation.

Are you saying that principle is one which only extremists hold to?

219 wrenchwench  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 6:04:43pm

re: #216 goddamnedfrank

I'm sorry, no. When you hire someone to be your VP of public policy then the kinds of public policies they've advocated in the past automatically become germane.

Not just germane, it could be evidence. Or at least a clue.

220 b_sharp  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 6:05:39pm

re: #214 Obdicut

Which is what I said.

in the sense it was used long, long ago, meant a proportional response.

We used to.

Thanks, But as I said, it's a legally mandated proportional response-- as in, if someone takes out your eye, you're not allowed to kill them in response, the punishment is them losing an eye as well.

Did you just miss the 'proportional' part of my post, or what?

This is the third time I'll have asked you to back up your claim that many legal systems are based in the concept of an eye for an eye. Can you please back up that claim, or at least acknowledge that you're dodging the question?

LIZARDS RUN FOR YOUR LIVES! OBDICUT HAS GONE ITALICS!!!

221 Big Joe  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 6:05:46pm

re: #194 Obdicut

The phrase, "an eye for an eye", (עין תחת עין‎, ayin tachat ayin, literally 'an eye under an eye'), is a quotation from several passages of the Hebrew Bible[1][2][3] in which a person who has injured the eye of another is instructed to pay compensation. It defined and restricted the extent of retribution in the laws of the Torah.

222 enigma3535  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 6:05:48pm

The statement that Madam Nancy Brinker should have released:

We want to apologize to the American public for recent decisions that cast doubt upon our commitment to our mission of saving women's lives.

The events of this week have been deeply unsettling for our supporters, partners and friends and all of us at Susan G. Komen. We have been distressed at the presumption that the changes made to our funding criteria were done for political reasons or to specifically penalize Planned Parenthood.

Unfortunately, we have determined that those presumptions were correct.

Certain members of our leadership staff were determined to have used their positions in a political manner to exclude Planned Parenthood from funding. Owing to that conclusion, we have terminated those staff member’s association with our organization.

Our only goal for our granting process is to support women and families in the fight against breast cancer. All other considerations are not even secondary. They do not, and will never, matter to this organization.

223 b_sharp  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 6:06:31pm

re: #217 ProLifeLiberal

MSA is Muslim Student Association.

I generally liked it, but the current leader at my branch has made it cold, and he is dubious himself.

Thanks.

224 Big Joe  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 6:06:58pm

bah too late and didn't read ahead before posting.

225 b_sharp  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 6:08:00pm

re: #222 enigma3535

The statement that Madam Nancy Brinker should have released:

We want to apologize to the American public for recent decisions that cast doubt upon our commitment to our mission of saving women's lives.

The events of this week have been deeply unsettling for our supporters, partners and friends and all of us at Susan G. Komen. We have been distressed at the presumption that the changes made to our funding criteria were done for political reasons or to specifically penalize Planned Parenthood.

Unfortunately, we have determined that those presumptions were correct.

Certain members of our leadership staff were determined to have used their positions in a political manner to exclude Planned Parenthood from funding. Owing to that conclusion, we have terminated those staff member’s association with our organization.

Our only goal for our granting process is to support women and families in the fight against breast cancer. All other considerations are not even secondary. They do not, and will never, matter to this organization.

They have been sacked.

226 Shvaughn  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 6:08:53pm

re: #222 enigma3535

Brinker wouldn't write that, because she'd have to sack herself.

227 Obdicut  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 6:10:05pm

re: #218 Shvaughn

The idea of a legally mandated proportional response is part of a lot of legal systems, including our own.

An exactly proportional response-- what is conveyed by 'an eye for an eye', is not, no.

No, it doesn't mean that you literally get to pluck out someone's eye, but it does mean that if someone harms you for [X] amount, you're entitled to [X] compensation.

Ah, so you're claiming it's the basis for tort law, not criminal law, then? Yes, eye for an eye-- the original concept, not the modern one-- you could say, if you wanted to, is the basis (though really just a description) of tort law. But that's tort, not criminal, law. Is that what you meant?

Are you saying that principle is one which only extremists hold to?

In terms of the death penalty?

228 goddamnedfrank  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 6:10:15pm

re: #219 wrenchwench

Not just germane, it could be evidence. Or at least a clue.

Exactly, some attitudes transcend whatever qualifications a person possesses. I don't care how much David Duke knows about cooking BBQ, he ain't working in my kitchen.

229 Lidane  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 6:10:41pm

re: #4 jaunte

And of course, she hasn't bothered to adopt any children herself.

They never do. Fanatics like Handel have a lot to say about adoption and about who should have babies and all that but when push comes to shove they're cowards who don't live up to their talk.

230 jamesfirecat  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 6:11:41pm

re: #229 Lidane

They never do. Fanatics like Handel have a lot to say about adoption and about who should have babies and all that but when push comes to shove they're cowards who don't live up to their talk.

To be fair to the "fanatics" there are exception like Michele Bachman.


//She seems to be trying to adopt enough to make up for all the others. (Too cruel?)

231 Shvaughn  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 6:12:40pm

re: #227 Obdicut

Ah so now tort law is no longer a legal system. Got it.

You did read where I don't agree with the "eye for an eye" statement the MSA guy made, right? I just think that such a sentiment doesn't automatically make him a terrorist sympathizer, and I think that "extremist sympathies" are as much a bigoted dogwhistle as "Israel Firster."

Which was my whole point, but you want to make this about Hammurabic codes or something, go ahead.

232 Obdicut  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 6:13:31pm

re: #218 Shvaughn

To put it another way: If you heard an American talking about an Afghani ambush of US soldiers where those soldiers were killed, and that person said that they believed in 'an eye for an eye', wouldn't you assume that person meant that lethal vengeance should be taken against the Afghanis that ambushed the soldiers? And wouldn't you think that, maybe, that person wouldn't really care deeply whether it was necessarily the right Afghanis that got killed in revenge?

233 Varek Raith  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 6:13:51pm

re: #231 Shvaughn

Do try not to be so condescending.
It's rather annoying.
;)

234 sattv4u2  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 6:17:10pm

re: #233 Varek Raith

Do try not to be so condescending.
It's rather annoying.
;)

MayHaps you'll get a better result from that than I did

235 Tsuga  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 6:18:38pm

re: #232 Obdicut

Point of information: The Afghani is a unit of currency, not a person. The people of Afghanistan are Afghans.

236 Obdicut  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 6:20:44pm

re: #231 Shvaughn

Ah so now tort law is no longer a legal system. Got it.

It's part of a legal system, but not the entirety of it. Back during the days of 'eye for an eye', the tort and criminal sections of the law were combined.

You did read where I don't agree with the "eye for an eye" statement the MSA guy made, right?

Yep. Which is why I've never intimated otherwise.

I just think that such a sentiment doesn't automatically make him a terrorist sympathizer, and I think that "extremist sympathies" are as much a bigoted dogwhistle as "Israel Firster."

I disagree. It could be, but it depends on the situation. Hell, some people might be out there using "Israel firster" in a positive sense, meaning an Israeli who puts Israel before his own personal success. In this case, the guy was presented as a Salaafi who made a moderate Muslim nervous, and appears to be hypocritical in his complaints.

I wouldn't say he has extremist sympathies, but saying that, based on the fact that person is from Saudi Arabia (not because of ethnicity), is making statements about 'eye for an eye' in reference to US troops murdering Afghanis, is defensible.

Are you claiming the bigotry is anti-Muslim, or anti-Saudi, or what?

237 Lidane  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 6:20:45pm

re: #230 jamesfirecat

To be fair to the "fanatics" there are exception like Michele Bachman.

//She seems to be trying to adopt enough to make up for all the others. (Too cruel?)

I'll give Bachmann credit for being a foster parent. Handel on the other hand? Not so much.

238 Obdicut  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 6:20:57pm

re: #235 Tsuga

Point of information: The Afghani is a unit of currency, not a person. The people of Afghanistan are Afghans.

I fuck that up each and every time. Thank you.

239 Shvaughn  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 6:21:15pm

re: #232 Obdicut

To put it another way: If you heard an American talking about an Afghani ambush of US soldiers where those soldiers were killed, and that person said that they believed in 'an eye for an eye', wouldn't you assume that person meant that lethal vengeance should be taken against the Afghanis that ambushed the soldiers? And wouldn't you think that, maybe, that person wouldn't really care deeply whether it was necessarily the right Afghanis that got killed in revenge?

I don't think it's the same in this situation because we know exactly who the (in your analogy) right Afghanis are -- we know who the people are, specifically, who the MSA guy is talking about.

I don't believe in killing. But I could easily see an American saying that the Afghanis who ambushed and killed an American patrol should be shot, without thinking that American was some kind of nutso terrorist sympathizer, or that he was likely to start popping off random Afghanis for revenge.

So in your scenario, no, calling for "eye for an eye justice" (even though that's a standard I don't believe in, so stop asking me to defend it) doesn't make someone a dangerous extremist. It just makes them pretty much human.

240 sattv4u2  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 6:21:47pm

re: #238 Obdicut

I fuck that up each and every time. Thank you.

You're not alone

[Link: www.kwintessential.co.uk...]

Islam is practised by the majority of Afghanis and governs much of their personal, political, economic and legal lives

241 Shvaughn  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 6:22:09pm

re: #235 Tsuga

Point of information: The Afghani is a unit of currency, not a person. The people of Afghanistan are Afghans.

Thanks, I got that wrong in my reply too.

242 Shvaughn  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 6:23:19pm

re: #236 Obdicut

I disagree. It could be, but it depends on the situation. Hell, some people might be out there using "Israel firster" in a positive sense, meaning an Israeli who puts Israel before his own personal success

Looks like we are just not gonna agree here.

I'm gonna go get some pizza.

243 jamesfirecat  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 6:23:49pm

re: #242 Shvaughn

Looks like we are just not gonna agree here.

I'm gonna go get some pizza.

///Better not be pineapple!

244 Shvaughn  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 6:24:12pm

re: #243 jamesfirecat

///Better not be pineapple!

... that's what I was gonna get.

245 Obdicut  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 6:24:43pm

re: #239 Shvaughn

I don't believe in killing. But I could easily see an American saying that the Afghanis who ambushed and killed an American patrol should be shot, without thinking that American was some kind of nutso terrorist sympathizer, or that he was likely to start popping off random Afghanis for revenge.

Really? Shot for what? For daring to kill US soldiers?

Anyone advocating the execution of soldiers on the battlefield is 100% a goddamn extremist to me.

So in your scenario, no, calling for "eye for an eye justice" (even though that's a standard I don't believe in, so stop asking me to defend it)

I haven't asked you to defend it a single time.

doesn't make someone a dangerous extremist. It just makes them pretty much human.

Those two things are not opposed.

246 Obdicut  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 6:25:44pm

re: #242 Shvaughn

Looks like we are just not gonna agree here.

I'm gonna go get some pizza.

Well, now you apparently don't consider those people who advocate the execution of anyone who shoots a US soldier on the battlefield to be extremists. Which is all kinds of fucked up.

247 Shvaughn  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 6:25:52pm

re: #245 Obdicut

LOL, I didn't say execution of soldiers on the battlefield.

You keep leaving out the word "justice."

248 ProGunLiberal  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 6:26:18pm

re: #240 sattv4u2

I've personally fucked that one up too. Alot.

re: #239 Shvaughn

I should mention I lived in Colorado Springs, around ALOT of Christian nuts. So, I tend to get really, really twitchy about people even going slightly bizarre when it comes to religion.

249 Shvaughn  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 6:26:42pm

re: #246 Obdicut

Well, now you're apparently fine with people who advocate the execution of anyone who shoots a US soldier on the battlefield. Which is all kinds of fucked up.

LOL.

I'm fine with what now?

250 Obdicut  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 6:26:47pm

re: #247 Shvaughn

LOL, I didn't say execution of soldiers on the battlefield.

You keep leaving out the word "justice."

What are you talking about, then? In what way can you call for those people to be shot? Should they be put on trial for being members of an opposing military, and executed for that? We have the death penalty for enemy soldiers now?

251 Tsuga  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 6:27:30pm

re: #238 Obdicut

Yer welcome. I had it wrong myself for a long time and I still tend to verge on getting it wrong. Part of the problem for people is that the pattern does work for Iraq/Iraqi, something we are very used to after the past 10 years.

252 Obdicut  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 6:27:33pm

re: #249 Shvaughn

LOL.

I'm fine with what now?

This:

But I could easily see an American saying that the Afghanis who ambushed and killed an American patrol should be shot

Do you understand that that would be a war crime?

253 sattv4u2  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 6:27:51pm

re: #248 ProLifeLiberal

I should mention I lived in Colorado Springs

{envious}

Although,, I liked Glenwood Springs a tad better

254 jaunte  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 6:28:26pm

re: #253 sattv4u2

That's a great swimming pool they have there.

255 Shvaughn  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 6:29:12pm

re: #252 Obdicut

Do you understand that that would be a war crime?

LOL, somehow I support war crimes by saying that I could understand an American saying that. Even though I disagree with, and disapprove of, the sentiment they're expressing.

Also, anyone who cheered Osama bin Laden's death is a terrorist extremist, right?

256 Shvaughn  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 6:29:52pm

Pizza, with pineapple (what's wrong with that?) is looking ever more attractive now. Bye, Obdicut!

257 Obdicut  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 6:30:06pm

re: #255 Shvaughn

LOL, somehow I support war crimes by saying that I could understand an American saying that. Even though I disagree with, and disapprove of, the sentiment they're expressing.

But you don't consider it an extremist point of view, to think that war crimes are okay?

Also, anyone who cheered Osama bin Laden's death is a terrorist extremist, right

How so?

258 Varek Raith  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 6:30:20pm

Most....
Odd.

259 jaunte  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 6:30:40pm

Posters who get into detailed discussions with Obdi are well advised to bring a food supply.

260 Shvaughn  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 6:31:05pm

re: #259 jaunte

Posters who get into detailed discussions with Obdi are well advised to bring a food supply.

Maybe I'll send out for pizza next time.

261 CuriousLurker  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 6:31:28pm

re: #249 Shvaughn

Greetings, hatchling. It looks like things just got a lot more interesting here. I don't think I've ever seen anyone come of of their shell swinging like that, heh.*

You seem to be familiar with the folks here, so I suppose you already know I'm the other resident Muslim. Welcome aboard.

Enjoy your pizza. ;)

*That's neither a criticism nor a complaint, just an observation.

262 sattv4u2  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 6:31:39pm

re: #258 Varek Raith

Most...
Odd.

263 Shvaughn  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 6:32:24pm

re: #261 CuriousLurker

Greetings, hatchling. It looks like things just got a lot more interesting here. I don't think I've ever seen anyone come of of their shell swinging like that, heh.*

I'm a swinger I guess.

264 CuriousLurker  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 6:32:32pm

re: #259 jaunte

Posters who get into detailed discussions with Obdi are well advised to bring a food supply.

QFT! (And 000G.)

265 b_sharp  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 6:33:46pm

re: #261 CuriousLurker

Greetings, hatchling. It looks like things just got a lot more interesting here. I don't think I've ever seen anyone come of of their shell swinging like that, heh.*

You seem to be familiar with the folks here, so I suppose you already know I'm the other resident Muslim. Welcome aboard.

Enjoy your pizza. ;)

*That's neither a criticism nor a complaint, just an observation.

You're a Muslim?

266 Obdicut  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 6:34:25pm

re: #260 Shvaughn

I'm glad that you acknowledge that Israel firster is a term that shouldn't be used. I fully agree that 'extremist sympathies' is often used to apply to people who have no such sympathies. In this case, I think that a lot was keyed off of ProLifeLIberals' interpretation, since he's someone we know. But 'extremist sympathies' is a term that can be justly applied to a very wide swathe of people, whereas "Israel firster" is never going to be an understandable or accurate term. So the attempt to congrue the two won't do.

And yes, people who advocate war crimes are extremists to me. That includes US supporters of torture.

267 CuriousLurker  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 6:34:33pm

re: #265 b_sharp

You're a Muslim?

NO! Who told you that lie??

//Taqiyya!

268 Shvaughn  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 6:35:14pm

re: #266 Obdicut

You and I don't really differ that much, you know.

What do you like on your pizza?

269 Varek Raith  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 6:36:49pm

re: #267 CuriousLurker

NO! Who told you that lie??

//Taqiyya!

YOU DID!11!!1

270 jaunte  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 6:37:19pm

re: #269 Varek Raith

Double secret inverse Taquiyya!

271 b_sharp  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 6:37:50pm

re: #267 CuriousLurker

NO! Who told you that lie??

//Taqiyya!

Next you'll be telling me I'm an atheist.

272 Obdicut  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 6:38:28pm

re: #268 Shvaughn

You and I don't really differ that much, you know.

I don't think something like that is knowable. But I do think I have very different ideas about how extremist or radical it is to advocate war crimes. I realize that there's been a lot of rough-and-ready acceptance of war crimes in the US over the past decade, but I think that's a very bad thing.

What do you like on your pizza?

Depends on the day.

273 CuriousLurker  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 6:39:42pm

re: #271 b_sharp

Next you'll be telling me I'm an atheist.

You're an atheist?? I heard you were the Muslim... That's what Varek said.

274 celticdragon  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 6:39:54pm

re: #105 darthstar

Why is it a "slur"? If you want to put Israel's policies ahead of America's that's your perogative. If you're from Israel, it's even understandable. But if you think war with Iran will do anything other than send thousands of American troops to their deaths and sink our already fragile (but recovering) economy, then you go ahead and take that stand.

I'll just reserve the right to call you fucking crazy.

The phrase has connotations that are best avoided.

275 Shvaughn  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 6:40:04pm

re: #272 Obdicut

Psst, I never said that war crimes were acceptable. And your analogy was really flawed and backwards anyway.

But keep on pushing that idea that I'm all for LOL battlefield executions! I'll be enjoying my pizza without you.

276 Obdicut  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 6:44:34pm

re: #275 Shvaughn

Psst, I never said that war crimes were acceptable.

And I didn't say that you said war crimes were acceptable. That makes like fifth thing you've wrongly attributed to me. It's getting annoying. Please stop it.

But keep on pushing that idea that I'm all for LOL battlefield executions! I'll be enjoying my pizza without you.

Again, please stop saying I said things I didn't. I never said that you're all for battlefield executions.

Why do you keep saying things like that?

277 b_sharp  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 6:46:55pm

re: #273 CuriousLurker

You're an atheist?? I heard you were the Muslim... That's what Varek said.

First rule of combat - never believe anything Varek tells you.

I like nakeditity too much to be Muslim.

278 Shvaughn  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 6:47:30pm

re: #276 Obdicut

Again, please stop saying I said things I didn't. I never said that you're all for battlefield executions.

Why do you keep saying things like that?

You said:

Well, now you're apparently fine with people who advocate the execution of anyone who shoots a US soldier on the battlefield. Which is all kinds of fucked up.

And now you're saying you didn't say that.

279 b_sharp  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 6:47:45pm

re: #276 Obdicut

And I didn't say that you said war crimes were acceptable. That makes like fifth thing you've wrongly attributed to me. It's getting annoying. Please stop it.

Again, please stop saying I said things I didn't. I never said that you're all for battlefield executions.

Why do you keep saying things like that?

Dizzy yet?

280 sattv4u2  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 6:48:19pm

re: #279 b_sharp

Dizzy yet?

Was he a pitcher too, like Dizzy Dean ??

281 b_sharp  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 6:50:25pm

re: #280 sattv4u2

Was he a pitcher too, like Dizzy Dean ??

No, a carnival ride tester.

282 Obdicut  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 6:52:27pm

re: #278 Shvaughn

No, I'm saying those two things don't mean the same things. I said that you're apparently fine with people who advocate the execution of people who kill US soldiers. You responded to my scenario of a US citizen saying 'eye for an eye' in response to US soldiers being killed by Afghans. You said you understood that person. Now, I take it by your further statements that by 'understand' you didn't mean you approved in any way, but that just makes it a rather confusing response to what I asked.

You seem to have a tendency of answering the questions you wished were asked, rather than the ones actually asked. You said that an American who said that you wouldn't think was a nutso terrorist sympathizer but that's not actually what I asked. I do think that man would be sympathetic to someone who, say, executed some Afghan soldiers.

283 Shvaughn  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 6:57:06pm

re: #282 Obdicut

No, I'm saying those two things don't mean the same things. I said that you're apparently fine with people who advocate the execution of people who kill US soldiers.

Describe what you mean by "fine with" -- because I've made it exceedingly clear that I don't agree with such a view and find it highly objectionable.

Apparently your view is that I don't find it objectionable ENOUGH, is that correct?

I don't think that expressing a wish for the death of one's enemies, or of criminals who commit murder, automatically makes someone an extremist -- even though I vehemently disgree with that point of view. (You fabricated the "battlefield execution" scenario yourself, it wasn't in what I said or what I replied to.)

Apart from your tortured hypothetical situation, what do you think of the actual, real case that happened -- which the MSA guy was upset about -- in which a group of American soldiers killed a group of innocent civilian Afghans and basically got away with it? Or is your ever-changing rhetorical scenario the only one you want to talk about?

284 Shvaughn  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 7:02:17pm

Oh, right, my pizza. Bye!

285 Obdicut  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 7:03:52pm

re: #283 Shvaughn

Describe what you mean by "fine with" -- because I've made it exceedingly clear that I don't agree with such a view and find it highly objectionable.

No, you haven't actually made it exceedingly clear. You may think you have, but your responses have been pretty ad hoc and lacking in clarity.

Apparently your view is that I don't find it objectionable ENOUGH, is that correct?

No, not really. It's that you don't apparently consider that someone whose response is "eye for an eye" is advocating vengeance.

I don't think that expressing a wish for the death of one's enemies, or of criminals who commit murder, automatically makes someone an extremist --

Who's talking about expressing a wish for the death of ones enemies? I'm talking about expressing a desire for the killing of ones enemies. And you very, very carefully placed 'eye for an eye' in the legalistic framework, so eye for an eye punishment of murder is, in fact, execution. If, instead, you're now suddenly treating 'eye for an eye' as the casual phrase it usually is used as, then that rather saps from our previous legalistic argument.

(You fabricated the "battlefield execution" scenario yourself, it wasn't in what I said or what I replied to.)

It's true that the 'battlefield' part was an insertion of mine, and I apologize for that. However, in the context, it's hard to think of another way that eye for an eye would operate. I mean, I guess we could execute them after a military tribunal, but we'd have to change the laws of war first.

If what you're interpreting as 'eye for an eye' is 'find those guys on the battlefield and kill them according to the laws of war', I think that's rather a huge stretch.

Apart from your tortured hypothetical situation

What's tortured about it, please? I understand you don't like it, but in what was it it tortured? It's pretty apt for the discussion, no?

what do you think of the actual, real case that happened -- which the MSA guy was upset about -- in which a group of American soldiers killed a group of innocent civilian Afghans and basically got away with it?

It's a shameful stain on the military and the country, as well as a war crime.

Or is your ever-changing rhetorical scenario the only one you want to talk about?

In what way is my scenario ever-changing, please?

And you'll find I'm more than happy to talk about any number of scenarios. I'm unsure why you want me to address that one, though, given my rather obvious 'I hate war crimes' stance.

286 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 7:42:35pm

"Komen VP Karen Handel: I’d Outlaw Gay Adoptions"

Someone should outlaw rightwing socon bigots from adopting gay children. It usually ends in ruin.

BTW, in case people have not put two and two together, yet, Karen Handel was the Palin endorsee for GA Governor in 2010. She has something to prove regarding her socon bonafides, as both she and Palin were effectively gay-baited by the competition, Nathan Deal.

[Link: ohcrapihaveacrushonsarahpalin.blogspot.com...]

Deal won the election.

287 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 7:47:38pm

re: #271 b_sharp

Next you'll be telling me I'm an atheist.

Your avatar indicates you are a Homer Sexual.

288 Shvaughn  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 7:47:57pm

re: #285 Obdicut

Mmm, my pizza was great, thanks for asking.

289 BongCrodny  Fri, Feb 3, 2012 7:52:34pm

I recently moved from Auburn to Old Orchard Beach, and I used to get my internet service through Time Warner.

Time Warner seems to have pretty decent firewalls and virus protection; during the year-plus I was on their system I had no computer problems whatsoever.

Now that I have wi-fi, a great big honking parasite latched itself onto my computer, completely messing with it and preventing me from doing the stuff I need to do. It's been a real pain-in-the-ass trying to fix the damn bloodsucker.

Karen Handel is a lot like malware.

290 JEA62  Sat, Feb 4, 2012 5:34:48am

re: #213 b_sharp

If anyone has evidence of Komen policy or decisions which are anti-gay I'd be glad to change my opinion. But I haven't heard any evidence that her views on gays have affected foundation policies.

Didn't Melissa Etheridge support Komen? Didn't Ellen DeGeneres as well? Think they're not aware of Handel or Brinker's views?

291 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Feb 4, 2012 10:32:54am

re: #290 JEA62

If anyone has evidence of Komen policy or decisions which are anti-gay I'd be glad to change my opinion. But I haven't heard any evidence that her views on gays have affected foundation policies.

Didn't Melissa Etheridge support Komen? Didn't Ellen DeGeneres as well? Think they're not aware of Handel or Brinker's views?

e_e Tokenism.

Melissa Etheridge and Ellen DeGeneres do not represent every single gay in the world ever born, any more than Ari Fleischer represents every single white in the world ever born.

Besides, Handel only came on board at Komen last year.

Also, Melissa's judgments on who she does and does not support aren't exactly universally accepted, or go unquestioned.

[Link: www.queerty.com...]

292 Tiny Alien Kitties are Watching You  Sat, Feb 4, 2012 3:15:52pm

OMG that big hair, that...uhmm...'large' face, and then the oversized faux pearls? You didn't link to a screen capture from the "Stepford Wives" by accident maybe?


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