Whitney Houston Dies at 48

US News • Views: 47,859

Rest in peace, Whitney Houston. A beautiful woman with a truly huge gift for singing, but a sad, sad life.

Whitney Houston via Shutterstock

I was in a recording studio doing a session when I first heard Whitney Houston sing — we were on a break, watching TV, and her first MTV video came on. I remember being blown away by how bright and positive and full of life she was — and that amazing voice.

It’s so sad that she couldn’t find a way to defeat her demons.

Here’s that video. What an instrument she had.

Youtube Video

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546 comments
1 freetoken  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 5:48:32pm

Most surprising. Understand she had problems, but it's always a shock when someone once so healthy and famous goes at only 48.

2 Charles Johnson  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 5:48:46pm

Confirmation from CNN:

3 Wozza Matter?  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 5:49:16pm

BBC ran with a "family spokesman" being the confirmation for what the publicist said.

4 freetoken  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 5:49:19pm

re: #2 Charles Johnson

The publicist wouldn't give any details - perhaps she had none.

5 PhillyPretzel  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 5:49:54pm

She had a wonderful voice. Rest in Peace.

6 Targetpractice  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 5:49:58pm

48 is way too young to go in this day and age. My condolences to her family and friends.

7 Obdicut  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 5:50:02pm

re: #4 freetoken

Publicist now is about to make herself a lot of money.

8 freetoken  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 5:51:43pm

I didn't even know the Grammys were tomorrow night. This should be a shock wave for that crowd.

9 Interesting Times  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 5:52:39pm

re: #8 freetoken

I didn't even know the Grammys were tomorrow night. This should be a shock wave for that crowd.

Video montage makers will be working overtime tonight.

10 Charles Johnson  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 5:52:59pm

These could be the last pictures of her. Not good ones, either.

[Link: www.thesun.co.uk...]

11 ProGunLiberal  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 5:53:06pm

re: #8 freetoken

This will be a very sad Grammys.

12 Lidane  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 5:57:00pm
13 freetoken  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 5:58:28pm

re: #9 Interesting Times

The producers probably have people working all during the next 24 hours to come up with something.

I'm not a big fan of contemporary music (not surprising, eh?), but even I knew who Whitney Houston was, and that she was a well appreciated singer.

48 is too young. It just is.

14 Lidane  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 6:01:18pm

It's so strange and sad. Just last week I was out with some friends and the bar we were at was blasting 80's music. Whitney's music came on and the whole crowd in the dance area was singing along. Now she's gone.

What a waste. Drugs suck.

15 MittDoesNotCompute  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 6:03:37pm

re: #14 Lidane

It's so strange and sad. Just last week I was out with some friends and the bar we were at was blasting 80's music. Whitney's music came on and the whole crowd in the dance area was singing along. Now she's gone.

What a waste. Drugs suck.

Cocaine's (along with meth and other shit) a helluva drug...Rick James found that out too in the end.

16 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 6:04:18pm

Well, this is terrible. Now who will sing every note across 3 octaves with every syllable? Apart from everyone, I mean.

17 moderatelyradicalliberal  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 6:06:01pm

re: #12 Lidane

[Video]

I don't think it's fair to blame Bobby Brown. People who grew up with Whitney knew she wasn't the completely "good girl" that was her image. She liked "bad boys" because she was a little bit of a "bad girl" herself. She was edgy and had a wild side. Neither of them were bad people, but together they indulged in the same bad habits. It's like if you put two people with bad money habits together they will go broke together. They brought out the worst in each other. She was as responsible as he was for what happened in their marriage. May she RIP, but she played her part.

18 Interesting Times  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 6:07:11pm

re: #10 Charles Johnson

These could be the last pictures of her. Not good ones, either.

[Link: www.thesun.co.uk...]

Wow, that article is dated Feb 10 - only yesterday! Most recent comments (that I just saw) are 2 hours old, before news broke. One of them makes a snarky insult and finishes off with "anyway carry on she will be joining whinehouse". Despite the contemptuous tone, I somehow doubt that person wanted to be proven right this quickly...

19 moderatelyradicalliberal  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 6:07:20pm

re: #15 talon_262

Cocaine's (along with meth and other shit) a helluva drug...Rick James found that out too in the end.

Right. Even if you quit the damage to your brain and body may still be their. Doing drugs can take years off of your life. She also ruined her voice and her breathing.

20 MittDoesNotCompute  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 6:07:47pm

re: #17 moderatelyradicalliberal

I don't think it's fair to blame Bobby Brown. People who grew up with Whitney knew she wasn't the completely "good girl" that was her image. She liked "bad boys" because she was a little bit of a "bad girl" herself. She was edgy and had a wild side. Neither of them were bad people, but together they indulged in the same bad habits. It's like if you put two people with bad money habits together they will go broke together. They brought out the worst in each other. She was as responsible as he was for what happened in their marriage. May she RIP, but she played her part.

Whitney + Bobby = Misery Loved Company

21 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 6:08:16pm

re: #17 moderatelyradicalliberal

Agreed. She was a grown woman. Still awful, though.

22 Lidane  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 6:08:32pm

re: #17 moderatelyradicalliberal

She played her part, that's true. But how much of it would have happened if she'd had stronger, more well-adjusted people in her life?

23 Gus  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 6:09:16pm

re: #12 Lidane

[Video]

Not buying that line of thinking. Not at all.

24 wee fury  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 6:11:26pm

Sincere sympathy to the family and friends of Whitney Houston. RIP.

25 BongCrodny  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 6:11:30pm

re: #22 Lidane

She played her part, that's true. But how much of it would have happened if she'd had stronger, more well-adjusted people in her life?

Or maybe even just one less asshole.

26 ProGunLiberal  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 6:12:47pm

Even the Libyan Tweeters I follow from the days of the Civil War are now talking about this.

27 moderatelyradicalliberal  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 6:12:51pm

re: #22 Lidane

She played her part, that's true. But how much of it would have happened if she'd had stronger, more well-adjusted people in her life?

Well she did. Her mother, her aunt Dionne Warwick and Clive Davis never left her side. Even Oprah tried to reach out to her. Whitney was raised really well by her mother and her father, but she was attracted to the dark side because she had one herself. She rejected their help and advice for so long because she wasn't well adjusted. That's just how some people are. She did what she wanted to do and you can't make grown people change. You can't keep people from their destiny.

28 prairiefire  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 6:13:26pm

re: #8 freetoken

I didn't even know the Grammys were tomorrow night. This should be a shock wave for that crowd.

She was getting ready to go to Clive James's big pre-Grammys party. Apparently Ray J found her when he went to pick her up for the party.

29 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 6:13:28pm

re: #12 Lidane

oh man cliffy b, haven't thought about him in a while

30 Charles Johnson  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 6:13:45pm

re: #18 Interesting Times

Wow, that article is dated Feb 10 - only yesterday! Most recent comments (that I just saw) are 2 hours old, before news broke.

It looks like she was on a binge.

31 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 6:13:58pm

You can only be blameless in drug consumption if someone spikes your [whatever] without your knowledge.

Everything you do yourself, you do of your own free will.

And I do understand there is such a thing as peer pressure, but it is the individual that ultimately makes the choice.

32 prairiefire  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 6:14:37pm

re: #30 Charles Johnson

It looks like she was on a binge.

Yeah, it looks like she's f'd up.

33 prairiefire  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 6:16:01pm

re: #27 moderatelyradicalliberal

Well she did. Her mother, her aunt Dionne Warwick and Clive Davis never left her side. Even Oprah tried to reach out to her. Whitney was raised really well by her mother and her father, but she was attracted to the dark side because she had one herself. She rejected their help and advice for so long because she wasn't well adjusted. That's just how some people are. She did what she wanted to do and you can't make grown people change. You can't keep people from their destiny.

Her last interview with Oprah was such a weird dance. Whitney looked like she was thinking "Don't you out me, Bitch." She had a serious problem.

34 moderatelyradicalliberal  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 6:17:06pm

re: #31 Slumbering Behemoth

You can only be blameless in drug consumption if someone spikes your [whatever] without your knowledge.

Everything you do yourself, you do of your own free will.

And I do understand there is such a thing as peer pressure, but it is the individual that ultimately makes the choice.

Whitney was fully grown when she developed her addiction. She wasn't a young girl when she hooked up with Bobby Brown either, she was in her late 20s. She knew better and was raised better. I don't mean to be harsh because it's all very sad, but Whitney Houston came into this world with all kinds of advantages, a good family, two parents, talent and beauty. She threw it all away.

35 freetoken  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 6:17:43pm

re: #27 moderatelyradicalliberal

Simple truth is that many substances are addictive, and humans (and other animals, btw) develop dependencies. Some people find ways to break the addiction, but others do not.

36 Lidane  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 6:18:02pm

re: #30 Charles Johnson

It looks like she was on a binge.

Oh yeah. I saw those photos the other day and was just amazed by them. It was like seeing the last video footage of Amy Winehouse on stage. Very, very sad.

Fucking tragic waste. She had so much talent, and it all went down an addiction-fueled spiral. :(

37 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 6:19:22pm

re: #34 moderatelyradicalliberal

I started smoking weed when I was fourteen. Fucked around with other stuff after that. I own that. All of it. My choice.

38 researchok  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 6:19:47pm

re: #35 freetoken

Simple truth is that many substances are addictive, and humans (and other animals, btw) develop dependencies. Some people find ways to break the addiction, but others do not.

It really is that simple.

39 Charles Johnson  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 6:20:16pm

I was in a recording studio doing a session when I first heard Whitney -- we were on a break and had the TV on, and her first MTV video came on. I remember being blown away by how bright and positive and full of life she was -- and that amazing voice.

It's so sad that she couldn't find a way to defeat her demons.

40 Interesting Times  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 6:22:35pm

re: #34 moderatelyradicalliberal

Whitney was fully grown when she developed her addiction. She wasn't a young girl when she hooked up with Bobby Brown either, she was in her late 20s. She knew better and was raised better.

I guess I never knew about any "dark side" she had before meeting him. I thought he'd been abusive, as well. From wiki:

In late 2003, Brown was arrested for misdemeanor battery, allegedly for striking Houston while shouting epithets.[11] In February 2004, Brown was arrested and jailed in Georgia on a parole violation related to a previous drunk driving conviction. In June 2004, Brown was sentenced to 90 days in prison for missing three months of child support payments. That sentence was immediately suspended after Brown made back payments totaling about $15,000.[12]

Then again, if she was so slated for self-destruction, perhaps if she would have found someone else just as bad if not worse.

41 BongCrodny  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 6:25:20pm

re: #37 Slumbering Behemoth

I started smoking weed when I was fourteen. Fucked around with other stuff after that. I own that. All of it. My choice.

Same here. Don't blame anybody but myself.

Still, I imagine it can be a tough comeback trail when you've got someone who *supposedly* loves you saying, "just one more hit, okay?"

42 Charles Johnson  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 6:26:23pm
Youtube Video
43 moderatelyradicalliberal  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 6:26:43pm

re: #40 Interesting Times

I guess I never knew about any "dark side" she had before meeting him. I thought he'd been abusive, as well. From wiki:

Then again, if she was so slated for self-destruction, perhaps if she would have found someone else just as bad if not worse.

Bobby was definitely violent, but there is no question that she loved him anyway. They both had issues. Serious issues and they were toxic for each other. I don't absolve him, but it's too easy to blame him for what happened to her. Especially for her most ardent fans who don't want to fully acknowledge her flaws.

44 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 6:26:50pm

re: #39 Charles Johnson

This is the first one I recall seeing on MTV.

Youtube Video
45 freetoken  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 6:27:25pm

re: #38 researchok

It really is that simple.

Yes. It's not about a "dark side" (IMO if someone wants to see a "dark side" then go watch videos of the CPACers from this weekend), it's about being human. Whether it's a desire to simply explore and experiment, or to find a way to cover up some pain, people try out all sorts of harmful substances. Some people are more prone to addiction than others.

46 prairiefire  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 6:30:42pm

re: #45 freetoken

But, I think that people need standards and ideals, which include avoiding self harm and hurting other people. She had a child. She had many, many years were she chose her addiction over other things.

47 CuriousLurker  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 6:31:27pm

re: #37 Slumbering Behemoth

I started smoking weed when I was fourteen. Fucked around with other stuff after that. I own that. All of it. My choice.

And therein lies the peril. We humans aren't particularly good at thinking beyond our immediate needs & desires. While we're free to make choices, once made, they end up owning us and—often adversely—affecting the subsequent options available and/or our ability to recognize & act on those options in our best interests.

RIP, Ms. Houston.

48 Charles Johnson  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 6:31:41pm

re: #44 Slumbering Behemoth

This is the first one I recall seeing on MTV.

[Video]

That's the one - How Will I Know.

49 Lidane  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 6:32:03pm

re: #44 Slumbering Behemoth

This is the first one I recall seeing on MTV.

Youtube Video
50 Mocking Jay  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 6:32:23pm

Just thought I'd hop on over to the Fox News page on this. Blatant racism out in the open for all to see.

51 Obdicut  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 6:33:47pm

re: #45 freetoken

When I was fifteen, I got semi-addicted to something. I don't, actually, know what it was-- I got it through my friend Diamon. I was able to cold-turkey it out, so it was probably morphine or opium in a pretty weak form, but the experience was certainly wrenching. A different kid than me, same circumstances, comes out an addict, not necessarily because my willpower is superior but because our bodies are wired differently and he's got more receptors for the junk or whatever.

My experience with addicts leads me to great sympathy but little to no trust. For someone who's had an extensive drug habit to be able to permanently give it up hovers around 5% for most hard drugs (and alcohol).

52 researchok  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 6:33:51pm

re: #46 prairiefire

But, I think that people need standards and ideals, which include avoiding self harm and hurting other people. She had a child. She had many, many years were she chose her addiction over other things.

True- but she was incapable of dealing with her demons.

She truly was a victim of disease.

Sometimes, I'm conflicted. On the one hand, I beoieve some drugs ought to be decriminalized.

On the other hand, these kinds of events make me believe we just can't have a wild west out there.

I suspect her kids and those close to her might agree.

53 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 6:33:58pm

re: #48 Charles Johnson

I watched it nearly every time it came on, but I wouldn't be caught dead admitting that to me stoner friends at the time.

54 FreedomMoon  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 6:34:28pm

re: #35 freetoken

Simple truth is that many substances are addictive, and humans (and other animals, btw) develop dependencies. Some people find ways to break the addiction, but others do not.

Booie, the smoking chimp comes to mind (as an example of animals developing addictions.)

55 sattv4u2  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 6:36:17pm

and on that note, the long quite drive home beckons

56 Dancing along the light of day  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 6:36:22pm

So very sad, to see such a talented, and unhappy person.

57 Interesting Times  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 6:37:14pm

re: #50 A Better Tomorrow, Tomorrow

Just thought I'd hop on over to the Fox News page on this. Blatant racism out in the open for all to see.

"Knickers" only reference pants!
Racist quotes are librul plants!

/CPAC Derp-Hop

58 sattv4u2  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 6:37:23pm

and on that note, the long quite drive home beckons

59 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 6:38:35pm

re: #50 A Better Tomorrow, Tomorrow

I don't even want to know. The level of callous gloating that went on over at Hawt-Ayer when Heath Ledger passed, simply for his role in "Brokeback", was more than enough for me.

60 CuriousLurker  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 6:39:39pm

re: #46 prairiefire

But, I think that people need standards and ideals, which include avoiding self harm and hurting other people. She had a child. She had many, many years were she chose her addiction over other things.

I've known a couple of addicts. Addiction has no love or loyalty to anything but the object of its desire. I had a friend who had been a heroin addict; he'd already been addicted when he lived here in the US, but he said it go much worse when he moved to Israel because heroin was much easier (and cheaper) to obtain there (at the time).

He said one day his elderly father was sick and needed to go to the hospital, but he needed a fix and had just gotten the money to buy one. He told his father he was going to go start the car and bring it around for him. He didn't—he took off and went on a binge. His father nearly died. He said nothing matters when you need a fix—not your spouse, not your kids, not your parents, not your God—nothing matters but the drug.

61 Lidane  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 6:41:55pm

The isolated vocal track of "How Will I Know" --

[Link: jakefogelnest.com...]

62 Charles Johnson  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 6:44:31pm

re: #61 Lidane

The isolated vocal track of "How Will I Know" --

[Link: jakefogelnest.com...]

Wow, that is incredible.

63 CuriousLurker  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 6:45:32pm

re: #61 Lidane

The isolated vocal track of "How Will I Know" --

[Link: jakefogelnest.com...]

She didn't even need the accompaniment of the musical instruments. *sigh* Depressing.

64 Mocking Jay  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 6:48:54pm

re: #59 Slumbering Behemoth

I don't even want to know. The level of callous gloating that went on over at Hawt-Ayer when Heath Ledger passed, simply for his role in "Brokeback", was more than enough for me.

Apparently every life is precious until it's been touched by drug use. After that you're just useless trash. That's the message I'm getting. And then you have the racist stuff...

65 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 6:51:52pm

re: #61 Lidane

Holy shit. I've listened to a lot of isolated vocal tracks like that for shits and giggles (early Van Halen is particularly hilarious), but I've never heard one that actually sounded good. Amazing.

66 MittDoesNotCompute  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 6:55:51pm

From The Bodyguard to a body bag in twenty years.

Fame (with all its trappings and pitfalls) can be a harsh mistress; just ask Hendrix, Joplin, Morrison, and Cobain, among others.

67 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 6:56:52pm

re: #64 A Better Tomorrow, Tomorrow

The drug use is just an excuse to vent their other various bigotries. I mean, the Heath Ledger thing astounded me. It wasn't even because he was gay, which as far as I know he wasn't, but because he portrayed a gay man in a movie.

I mean, I "get" hate. I hated OBL. But the kind of hate that comes out when people who die did little more than sing or act? I don't get it and I don't want to.

68 prairiefire  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 6:56:53pm

re: #60 CuriousLurker

It's horrific. I'm sorry CL. All of my addict friends are dead now. A person can shout and shout, and they are still leaving. They are gone.

69 CuriousLurker  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 6:57:08pm

re: #64 A Better Tomorrow, Tomorrow

Apparently every life is precious until it's been touched by drug use. After that you're just useless trash. That's the message I'm getting. And then you have the racist stuff...

You should know by now that to a good part of the fundie GOP base, life is only precious until the moment it exits the womb. Once it exists independently of the mother, the circumstances under which it remains precious narrow considerably.

70 ProGunLiberal  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 7:00:17pm

re: #69 CuriousLurker

I talked to the Imam on Wednesday.

He did a decent job of putting my head back on straight.

71 Mocking Jay  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 7:01:45pm

re: #69 CuriousLurker

You should know by now that to a good part of the fundie GOP base, life is only precious until the moment it exits the womb. Once it exists independently of the mother, the circumstances under which it remains precious narrow considerably.

Yeah, and they think the abortion stance should get them some compassion cred. Give me a break. What the hell did she ever do to any of them?

72 CuriousLurker  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 7:02:13pm

re: #68 prairiefire

It's horrific. I'm sorry CL. My addict friends are all dead now.

I'm sorry to hear that {prairiefire}. I was lucky that mine survived, but not without having paid a terrible toll. My son, at 28, has already lost a few to drugs & violence. Such a waste. It scared him straight years ago, so for that much I'm thankful.

73 CuriousLurker  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 7:02:48pm

re: #70 ProGunLiberal

I talked to the Imam on Wednesday.

He did a decent job of putting my head back on straight.

Glad to hear it. ;)

74 Varek Raith  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 7:07:35pm

It's crazy windy out there.

75 prairiefire  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 7:08:07pm

TMZ crashed.

76 prairiefire  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 7:08:30pm

re: #74 Varek Raith

It's crazy windy out there.

We had that in KC on Thursday and Friday.

77 freetoken  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 7:08:59pm

re: #51 Obdicut

My experience with addicts leads me to great sympathy but little to no trust. For someone who's had an extensive drug habit to be able to permanently give it up hovers around 5% for most hard drugs (and alcohol).

Concur. I've known lots of alcoholics and some addicted to other drugs, and it's pretty clear that no matter how much one might feel for them one shouldn't trust them. It's hard.

I knew a guy who drank himself to death (literally, one night), on purpose, who had issues in the past with other drugs - a talented and remarkably congenial person, but he never could over come whatever it was dragging him down. Some people seem to be just beyond whatever help modern treatments have to offer.

78 ProGunLiberal  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 7:09:04pm

re: #73 CuriousLurker

The issue now is an issue everyone has. Making sure I don't fall back into old patterns.

Also, he was concerned about the MSA President, but told me to not intervene directly. He thinks the guy in question will either moderate out, or will give himself enough rope to hang himself.

I will follow the Imam on this.

The other issue that was creating trouble is lingering hostility from Norway. The Imam in question is a Palestinian via Lebanese Refugee Camp. He survived a massacre by the Phalangist during the Civil War. He was able to talk me through the feelings. He also explained that those experiences earlier in his life have made him pacifistic.

I admire that he is such a person, and able to hold to it. But, I will always be a bit more aggressive than him. I approve of Obama because of how he deals with the Loony Terrorists, for example.

79 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 7:09:12pm

re: #18 Interesting Times

Wow, that article is dated Feb 10 - only yesterday! Most recent comments (that I just saw) are 2 hours old, before news broke. One of them makes a snarky insult and finishes off with "anyway carry on she will be joining whinehouse". Despite the contemptuous tone, I somehow doubt that person wanted to be proven right this quickly...

And from the Sun, too (which is fairly thoroughly dipped in shit just about now).

80 CuriousLurker  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 7:11:06pm

re: #74 Varek Raith

It's crazy windy out there.

It's snowing here, or at least it was earlier. Cold too.

81 Obdicut  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 7:11:28pm

re: #77 freetoken

I think that there are paths to health for each person, but there's no one program that someone can go through. Each has to be discovered on their own, and there's an element of luck there. Augusten Burroughs is a good example. A definite alcoholic with a lot working against him, but he really managed to get on top of his addictions, partially by having no illusions that they're dead and gone.

82 MittDoesNotCompute  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 7:11:35pm

re: #75 prairiefire

TMZ crashed.

Wow...that and the inevitable stampede to buy her albums/songs (putting her back at the top of the sales charts for at least a couple of days) will be a testament to how popular she still is.

83 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 7:11:49pm

re: #70 ProGunLiberal

I talked to the Imam on Wednesday.

He did a decent job of putting my head back on straight.

Glad to hear it.

84 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 7:13:40pm

re: #81 Obdicut

I think that there are paths to health for each person, but there's no one program that someone can go through. Each has to be discovered on their own, and there's an element of luck there. Augusten Burroughs is a good example. A definite alcoholic with a lot working against him, but he really managed to get on top of his addictions, partially by having no illusions that they're dead and gone.

There are no recovered alcoholics or drug addicts, only recovering ones.

85 Varek Raith  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 7:13:42pm

Cloudy / Windy Strong winds may be causing power outages.
24°F
Feels Like: 7°

BRRRR.

86 prairiefire  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 7:14:15pm

re: #82 talon_262

It's up again. They must have 50,000 hamsters.

87 Mocking Jay  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 7:15:44pm

So I see Ron Paul came frighteningly close to winning a state tonight.

88 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 7:16:00pm

re: #77 freetoken

Some people seem to be just beyond whatever help modern treatments have to offer.

I could be wrong, since it's been a good long while since I've been in any "recovery" type circles, but most modern treatments heavily involve faith based stuff. 12 steps, religious counseling, and the like. And the majority of those heavily rely on a 'bootstrap' mentality. The failure rate is high, for obvious reasons.

89 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 7:16:54pm

I'm half-seriously thinking of petitioning the British government to declare Adele's vocal chords a national treasure and appointing a conservator.

But she's a person, not a housing for her talent, so, no.

90 ProGunLiberal  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 7:17:06pm

Taylor Swift will be performing at the Grammys. :D

Also, nominated for 3 Awards herself. Hope she gets at least one.

91 Obdicut  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 7:17:10pm

re: #84 Ooh, look, shiny...

There are no recovered alcoholics or drug addicts, only recovering ones.

Well, there's also, physically, people for whom addiction is less likely with some substances. I myself was also a really heavy drinker for awhile, really heavy-- my first drink of the night was four shots of whiskey-- but I was able to give it up easily once I had a modicum of support. But giving up smoking was hell, even though I managed it.

92 CuriousLurker  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 7:17:18pm

re: #78 ProGunLiberal

The issue now is an issue everyone has. Making sure I don't fall back into old patterns.

Also, he was concerned about the MSA President, but told me to not intervene directly. He thinks the guy in question will either moderate out, or will give himself enough rope to hang himself.

I will follow the Imam on this.

The other issue that was creating trouble is lingering hostility from Norway. The Imam in question is a Palestinian via Lebanese Refugee Camp. He survived a massacre by the Phalangist during the Civil War. He was able to talk me through the feelings. He also explained that those experiences earlier in his life have made him pacifistic.

I admire that he is such a person, and able to hold to it. But, I will always be a bit more aggressive than him. I approve of Obama because of how he deals with the Loony Terrorists, for example.

Sounds like a wise man, the imam. I'm glad you have access to him. You don't have to be exactly like him, but it sounds like he can teach you a lot, so do your best to keep his respect & guidance.

Next time something comes up, go to him straightaway instead of trying to work it out on your own—that's what he's there for and he wouldn't have accepted the job if he didn't very much want to help.

93 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 7:17:47pm

re: #87 A Better Tomorrow, Tomorrow

So I see Ron Paul came frighteningly close to winning a state tonight.

If Mitt Romney won Maine, then we can all be thankful in a small way, for sanity prevailed.

94 Mocking Jay  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 7:18:16pm

re: #88 Slumbering Behemoth

I came really close to linking to the South Park episode where Butters is sent to pray the gay away and is introduced to his first roommate...

95 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 7:18:42pm

re: #89 Ooh, look, shiny...

Lloyd's of London will insure anything, including individual body parts. For the right price, of course.

96 Jimmi the Grey  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 7:19:11pm

re: #50 A Better Tomorrow, Tomorrow

Just thought I'd hop on over to the Fox News page on this. Blatant racism out in the open for all to see.

How can you tell...all I ever get is the same 10 comments everytime I click the 'more comments' button. Do you have to register to see all comments?

97 Kragar  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 7:19:27pm

British police arrest five at Murdoch's Sun newspaper

98 prairiefire  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 7:20:45pm

re: #88 Slumbering Behemoth

Slumbering, there are many new, and mostly good, meds for chemical imbalances. And, come to find out, experts now attribute at least 60% of psychotic incidences to a system chemical imbalance particular to that individual.

99 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 7:20:55pm

re: #89 Ooh, look, shiny...

and don't tell anybody, but I have a crush...

100 Obdicut  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 7:20:57pm

re: #88 Slumbering Behemoth

I could be wrong, since it's been a good long while since I've been in any "recovery" type circles, but most modern treatments heavily involve faith based stuff. 12 steps, religious counseling, and the like. And the majority of those heavily rely on a 'bootstrap' mentality. The failure rate is high, for obvious reasons.

The success rate of AA is the success rate of the baseline. About five percent of the people who attend AA meetings manage to quit in a substantial way, which is the same rate for people on their own without anything going on to help them.

[Link: www.nytimes.com...]

101 Mocking Jay  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 7:21:18pm

re: #96 Jimmi the Grey

How can you tell...all I ever get is the same 10 comments everytime I click the 'more comments' button. Do you have to register to see all comments?

It works better if you click it to show the oldest comments first.

102 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 7:22:01pm

This is morbid, but I'll bet Glee does a Whitney show now.

103 Mocking Jay  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 7:22:59pm

re: #100 Obdicut

The success rate of AA is the success rate of the baseline. About five percent of the people who attend AA meetings manage to quit in a substantial way, which is the same rate for people on their own without anything going on to help them.

[Link: www.nytimes.com...]

Do they at least have a lower rate of recidivism?

104 CuriousLurker  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 7:23:55pm

My neighbor in the next apartment just put Whitney on her stereo. She's also singing along, heh (hope she doesn't quit her day job).

Alrighty, I have a rump roast in the fridge that needs to be cut into chunks for beef stew. Gonna make it tonight since stuff like that always tastes better the next day.

Have a good night, everyone.

105 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 7:25:17pm

re: #98 prairiefire

That may well be so, but from what I recall of the established and court recognized forms of treatment, that is just frowned upon as trading one addiction from another.

If that has changed demonstrably, especially in the legal system, then that's a good thing.

106 ProGunLiberal  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 7:25:34pm

re: #104 CuriousLurker

If I started singing, I would hope Interpol would pick me up. Cause that would be a crime against humanity.

107 prairiefire  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 7:26:17pm

re: #104 CuriousLurker

*Best wishes, CL.* Your place will smell great. It is definitely beef stew weather.

108 Obdicut  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 7:27:06pm

re: #103 A Better Tomorrow, Tomorrow

Do they at least have a lower rate of recidivism?

Nope.


It is possible-- but only theoretical-- that they have a higher rate of success for a subset of the alcoholic population, but that's about all. No one path to treatment can possibly deal with all addicts, since addiction has a lot of physical and psychological differences. Any treatment program with a specific format that claims to treat everyone best is automatically going to be wrong.

109 Kragar  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 7:27:43pm

re: #106 ProGunLiberal

If I started singing, I would hope Interpol would pick me up. Cause that would be a crime against humanity.

I'm a musical amputee.

Can't hold a note, can't carry a tune.

But I can sing loudly and over enthusiastically.

110 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 7:30:18pm

re: #97 Kragar

British police arrest five at Murdoch's Sun newspaper

Hence my "dipped in shit" remark about the Sun.

111 prairiefire  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 7:30:43pm

I think AA is a very good program. AL Anon has a good program that overlaps to narcotics abuse well. To think of the cloak of shame that people with addictions were saddled with back when AA was founded until now ~ AA was one of the first to not judge, but to push for change and healing.

112 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 7:31:01pm

re: #100 Obdicut

I was raised in 12 step culture. There's a reason it tends to go hand in hand with other forms of magical thinking.

I consider it a cult not unlike scientology.

113 Obdicut  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 7:33:30pm

re: #111 prairiefire

AA can be very judgy itself, though. One of my best friends has been in it for years, and he says in a lot of the groups, that any time you say that maybe you don't need AA anymore, maybe you've got a group of friends and family that can support you on your own, they react viscerally against the idea.

There are people who are in AA and go through it and become sober. There's an equal number in every other treatment program, and most likely an equal number among people who just made the decision to quit on their own and enlisted family and friends.

114 ProGunLiberal  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 7:33:43pm

re: #106 ProGunLiberal

See, here it is. From the United Nations Convention Against Torture:

Any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him or a third person, information or a confession, punishing him for an act he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed, or intimidating or coercing him or a third person, or for any reason based on discrimination of any kind, when such pain or suffering is inflicted by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity. It does not include pain or suffering arising only from, inherent in or incidental to lawful sanctions.

Third Geneva Convention:

Section 1 covers the beginning of captivity (Articles 17–20). It dictates what information a prisoner must give and interrogation methods that the detaining power may use "No physical or mental torture, nor any other form of coercion". It dictates what private property a prisoner of war may keep and that the prisoner of war must be evacuated from the combat zone as soon as possible.

Off from this, I looked at the Fourth Geneva Conventions. I think we could try terrorists for violating that Convention. Otherwise known as War Crimes Trials.

115 prairiefire  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 7:35:54pm

re: #113 Obdicut

Every little bit helps.

116 Obdicut  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 7:39:20pm

re: #115 prairiefire

Well, the point is that it may very well be that none of our approaches actually work, when applied to the broad population of alcoholics. It really may be that no current treatments succeed more than people with any sort of social support group on their own do.

I think different addicts, being different people, need different approaches. I also think that addictions, for some people, are so powerful they are pretty well inescapable.

117 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 7:39:45pm

re: #114 ProGunLiberal

See, here it is. From the United Nations Convention Against Torture:

Third Geneva Convention:

Off from this, I looked at the Fourth Geneva Conventions. I think we could try terrorists for violating that Convention. Otherwise known as War Crimes Trials.

Not without confirming the idea that those provisions apply to us in holding said terrorists, which in a number of ways we don't want to do. And the fact is that captured terrorists are Illegal Combatants, not entitled to the full panoply of protections.

118 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 7:40:05pm

re: #113 Obdicut

Group chant at the end of the "Lord's Prayer"...

"Keep coming back. I works when you work it."

1. We admitted we were powerless over alcohol - that our lives had become unmanageable.

2. Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity.

3. Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him.

4. Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves.

5. Admitted to God, to ourselves and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs.

6. Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character.

7. Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings.

8. Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all.

9. Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.

10. Continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong promptly admitted it.

11. Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of His will for us and the power to carry that out.

12. Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to alcoholics and to practice these principles in all our affairs.

119 Kragar  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 7:41:10pm

re: #118 Slumbering Behemoth

Group chant at the end of the "Lord's Prayer"...

"Keep coming back. I works when you work it."

Cthulhu?

120 Interesting Times  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 7:41:14pm

re: #116 Obdicut

I think different addicts, being different people, need different approaches. I also think that addictions, for some people, are so powerful they are pretty well inescapable.

Do you think a genetic engineering/neuroscience approach might be around in the next decade or so? A way to "re-wire" or reprogram the addicted brain?

121 ProGunLiberal  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 7:41:52pm

re: #117 Dark_Falcon

No, I'm saying Terrorists should be tried for War Crimes under the conventions.

We will still treat them as reasonable, civilized nation would. And not do Water-Boarding or other skeevy things.

122 Kragar  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 7:42:33pm

re: #120 Interesting Times

Do you think a genetic engineering/neuroscience approach might be around in the next decade or so? A way to "re-wire" or reprogram the addicted brain?

I can see no possible negative repercussions from that course of action.
/

123 MittDoesNotCompute  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 7:44:50pm

re: #118 Slumbering Behemoth

Group chant at the end of the "Lord's Prayer"...

"Keep coming back. I works when you work it."

There's a bunch of reasons right there why the South Park skewering of 12-step programs (such as AA) worked so well and were so funny.

124 Varek Raith  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 7:45:26pm

re: #122 Kragar

I can see no possible negative repercussions from that course of action.
/

The freemarket will sort that out.

125 jaunte  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 7:45:44pm

re: #122 Kragar

Dr. Ludovico?

126 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 7:45:49pm

re: #121 ProGunLiberal

No, I'm saying Terrorists should be tried for War Crimes under the conventions.

We will still treat them as reasonable, civilized nation would. And not do Water-Boarding or other skeevy things.

Generally, we've preferred to try them for violation of our own laws when possible. Plans to try them for War Crimes would likely cause calls for an international tribunal to handle the trials, and that idea would be unacceptable to the US.

127 Obdicut  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 7:46:13pm

re: #118 Slumbering Behemoth

Yeah. It's very obviously overall a Christian organization of a very particular creed, one of man's complete submission to and inferiority to a God who has some sort of plan. Now, individual meetings may de-emphasize the religious aspect almost totally, but it was obviously, completely founded in that sort of transformative Christianity, where you had no strength but that which god gave you.

Which is really obviously not going to work for a lot of people.

128 prairiefire  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 7:48:08pm

re: #118 Slumbering Behemoth

From what I have seen of AA meetings, some people seemed to appreciate that detailed recounting of the addiction to confront the addiction. I would say they were driven people, driven by their desire for something they know is so harmful. It's a debilitating disease, and that intensity of the 12 step program seems to address their sense of urgency.
What is interesting is the changes in the last 20 years or so, including the acceptance and veracity of alternative treatments.

129 Obdicut  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 7:48:56pm

re: #120 Interesting Times

Do you think a genetic engineering/neuroscience approach might be around in the next decade or so? A way to "re-wire" or reprogram the addicted brain?

I dunno. Totally not conversant with the research or science on that enough. I'd just note again there's a lot of mechanisms for addiction. Some drugs addict by you getting receptors that are attuned to them, others because it downregulates some receptor, etc. So it's like cancer. There is no 'cure for cancer'. There may be approaches that'll work for some forms of addiction in some people.

130 Kragar  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 7:50:48pm

re: #124 Varek Raith

The freemarket will sort that out.

We can have the States decide how best to use them.

131 moderatelyradicalliberal  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 7:51:45pm

re: #113 Obdicut

AA can be very judgy itself, though. One of my best friends has been in it for years, and he says in a lot of the groups, that any time you say that maybe you don't need AA anymore, maybe you've got a group of friends and family that can support you on your own, they react viscerally against the idea.

There are people who are in AA and go through it and become sober. There's an equal number in every other treatment program, and most likely an equal number among people who just made the decision to quit on their own and enlisted family and friends.

Isn't part of the difficulty with treating addiction is that you also have to treat any underlying trauma that led to the addiction? Like if a person is self medicating because of a tragic lose or childhood trauma don't you have to treat that or they will be back struggling with it once they are sober?

132 ProGunLiberal  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 7:54:38pm

Finally disagreed with a Pop Music Reviewer that I like to watch from That Guy with The Glasses.

He hates "Just a Kiss" by Lady Antebellum, I like it. Not as much as Taylor Swift though. Taylor Swift, to me, has more energy.

133 Only The Lurker Knows  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 7:55:12pm

Night Lizards.

What song of hers will I remember the most?

Youtube Video

May the Deity of Your Choice and Hers smile down upon you all .

And may you have a good night and a better tomorrow.

134 Obdicut  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 7:58:16pm

re: #131 moderatelyradicalliberal

Yes, if there was a root trauma. Some people are addicts just because they decided to try it out for kicks and then got addicted. That's why, even though I don't want to criminalize the use of hard drugs, I don't want them fully legalized, either.

A lot of addicts got that way through legitimate medical treatment, or at least seeking to control pain. I know one heroin addict, for example, who became such because her migraine medication was too expensive for her to afford, and heroin was cheap and plentiful. She has migraines that are evilly terrible, reducing her to a pitiful wreck and shattering her for days. With heroin, she was able to control that and actually carve out a bit of a life for her.

I know, she's a corner case, but it is important to recognize a lot of addicts were psychologically well-adjusted people who began to experience pain, and that was the trauma-- literal, physical pain. That may still be present-- House is actually occasionally interesting about this topic. Telling someone who really experiences chronic pain to quit his addictive painkillers is just asinine.

135 austin_blue  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 7:58:37pm

re: #124 Varek Raith

The freemarket will sort that out.

Varek-

Info for you from a couple of threads:

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

136 goddamnedfrank  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 8:03:13pm

re: #117 Dark_Falcon

Not without confirming the idea that those provisions apply to us in holding said terrorists, which in a number of ways we don't want to do. And the fact is that captured terrorists are Illegal Combatants, not entitled to the full panoply of protections.

Article 5 of the TGC says that if there is any doubt at all as to the prisoner's status then they are to be treated as POWs until a competent tribunal hears their case. Residents of a non-occupied territory may take up arms upon approach of the enemy. As long as they display those arms openly they have no obligation to organize themselves into regular units or wear uniforms, yet when captured they are still POWs under Article 4.

137 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 8:03:54pm

re: #134 Obdicut

Dave Wyndorf got addicted to perscription benzos simply because he had crippling insomnia, and being awake for days on end on a tour, you'll do anything in your power to get sleep

138 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 8:05:29pm

re: #119 Kragar

Cthulhu?

Well, "god of your understanding" could certainly include that, yes.

139 ProGunLiberal  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 8:05:38pm

re: #132 ProGunLiberal

Watching his review of the song, it appears his gripe with the song is that it is too old-fashioned. He seems wound up about it to.

140 Lidane  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 8:10:45pm

re: #102 Ooh, look, shiny...

This is morbid, but I'll bet Glee does a Whitney show now.

[Link: www.hollywoodreporter.com...]

141 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 8:11:24pm

re: #127 Obdicut

Aside form the cultist nature of it, here's my other problem...

When you're an addict in the judicial system that needs, and even wants help for your addiction, you are often limited to either submitting yourself to the whims of a pseudo-christian cult, or simply spending time in prison. Few other options are available, if at all.

142 ProGunLiberal  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 8:12:50pm

Also, apparently, he sees it as being popular and good for the "Family Values" crowd. While this is true, still don't see an issue with the song.

The only thing it loses points with from my perspective is that Lady Antebellum's music tends to be less energetic than Taylor Swift's music.

143 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 8:14:18pm

re: #142 ProGunLiberal

Also, apparently, he sees it as being popular and good for the "Family Values" crowd. While this is true, still don't see an issue with the song.

The only thing it loses points with from my perspective is that Lady Antebellum's music tends to be less energetic than Taylor Swift's music.

Yeah, but I bet lady Antebellum doesn't have to wait until a movie star breaks up with them to write a new album.

144 Obdicut  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 8:15:21pm

re: #141 Slumbering Behemoth

Aside form the cultist nature of it, here's my other problem...

When you're an addict in the judicial system that needs, and even wants help for your addiction, you are often limited to either submitting yourself to the whims of a pseudo-christian cult, or simply spending time in prison. Few other options are available, if at all.

Yes. Which both artificially inflates the numbers of people in it-- who wouldn't be otherwise-- and perpetuates the institution, and makes it unlikely that groups composed frequently of people coerced to be there are going to succeed.

145 austin_blue  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 8:15:43pm

When Townes Van Zandt died, another Texas musician (Billy Joe Shaver? I can't recall.) said at his memorial service:

"Well, my friends, we've been waiting for this day for twenty years. Sadly, here we all are."

Damn shame. Townes drank himself to death. Whitney? Same demons, same result.

146 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 8:16:20pm

re: #132 ProGunLiberal

I don't know many muslims, but you've got to be one of the weirdest ones I've spoken with, musical taste wise.

Freak on, PLL. Freak on!

147 ProGunLiberal  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 8:20:36pm

re: #143 Ooh, look, shiny...

Not all songs on those albums are break-up songs. Far from it. Right now listening to "Long Live" I love that song.

re: #146 Slumbering Behemoth

Thanks! My Imam said that we are raised by not just by our parents, but those close to us.

A super-majority of my closest friends throughout the years (and all of the close friends now) are ladies. So I end up having split tastes. At least, that's why I think I am this way.

148 Lidane  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 8:23:07pm

re: #145 austin_blue

I was just thinking about Townes earlier. I had my iPod in and Lyle Lovett's version of "If I Needed You" came on. That song will never not make me cry.

149 ProGunLiberal  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 8:24:43pm

re: #147 ProGunLiberal

This shows up also in my tastes in Manga.

My favorites are Rurouni Kenshin (From when I was younger) and Fruits Basket.

150 Sheila Broflovski  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 8:24:53pm

I just watched "The Help." Very overrated movie, full of stereotypes, and Emma's Stone's hair stole the show.

I mean WTF? Nobody in the '60's went around with '80's perms! Was that perm supposed to show that she was "unique" an "individualist"? Give me a freaking break! Gloria Fucking Steinem would not have been caught dead at a garbage dump with hair like that!

151 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 8:25:32pm

re: #134 Obdicut

There's another physical component to addiction besides pain. Whatever chemicals you take in quantities that will get you "high", that part of the body which produces similar chemicals will begin to shut down and atrophy with habitual use.

For instance, with habitual meth use, the body will stop producing adrenaline. Even after quitting, it can takes months for the body to start producing it again.

152 austin_blue  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 8:26:12pm

re: #148 Lidane

I was just thinking about Townes earlier. I had my iPod in and Lyle Lovett's version of "If I Needed You" came on. That song will never not make me cry.

He was brilliant, brilliant songwriter. And a complete human train wreck.

153 Varek Raith  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 8:26:26pm

re: #149 ProGunLiberal

This shows up also in my tastes in Manga.

My favorites are Rurouni Kenshin (From when I was younger) and Fruits Basket.

Hiten Mitsurugi style; Ryu Tsui Sen!

154 Lidane  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 8:26:48pm

re: #152 austin_blue

He was brilliant, brilliant songwriter. And a complete human train wreck.

Very true on both counts.

155 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 8:28:00pm

re: #150 Look At My New Grandbaby!

I just watched "The Help." Very overrated movie, full of stereotypes, and Emma's Stone's hair stole the show.

I mean WTF? Nobody in the '60's went around with '80's perms! Was that perm supposed to show that she was "unique" an "individualist"? Give me a freaking break! Gloria Fucking Steinem would not have been caught dead at a garbage dump with hair like that!

Her frizzy hair was supposed to be more of a sign that she wasn't willing to put in the effort on her appearance that her mother wanted her to.

156 Sheila Broflovski  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 8:30:58pm

re: #155 Ooh, look, shiny...

Her frizzy hair was supposed to be more of a sign that she wasn't willing to put in the effort on her appearance that her mother wanted her to.

The frizzy hair was too obviously permed. That totally did not look natural. I had frizzy hair in the '60's and it never even occurred to me to get it permed so that it would be even more curly.

I used to put my hair on ironing board, and got hair processing sets at African-American salon.

157 Sheila Broflovski  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 8:32:22pm

That's the problem with wearing a wig. I can always tell when someone is wearing a wig in the movies.

158 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 8:32:34pm

re: #156 Look At My New Grandbaby!

The frizzy hair was too obviously permed. That totally did not look natural. I had frizzy hair in the '60's and it never even occurred to me to get it permed so that it would be even more curly.

I used to put my hair on ironing board, and got hair processing sets at African-American salon.

Probably Emma Stone's hair isn't naturally frizzy. I could show her a thing or two about frizzy.

159 Sheila Broflovski  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 8:33:38pm

re: #158 Ooh, look, shiny...

Probably Emma Stone's hair isn't naturally frizzy. I could show her a thing or two about frizzy.

It was so distracting I couldn't enjoy the movie. Why does she have a freaking '80's perm?? Hollywood hairdressing FAIL.

160 ProGunLiberal  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 8:34:23pm

re: #153 Varek Raith

Thank you for the little nostalgia trip. I loved Rurouni Kenshin when I was kid. Dragonball Z was boring and made me go to sleep. Rurouni Kenshin was more exciting, and had real life history going on in the background. It was Historical Fiction, until physics gets involved.

I still read some Manga (online, I have no money), but nothing will ever be as good as Rurouni Kenshin.

161 Mocking Jay  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 8:35:09pm

Tech question: I see LGF's host is offering unlimited everything for $11/month. Is this a deal I can't refuse?

162 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 8:35:19pm

re: #159 Look At My New Grandbaby!

It was so distracting I couldn't enjoy the movie. Why does she have a freaking '80's perm?? Hollywood hairdressing FAIL.

As was pointed out repeatedly, in The Wedding Singer, which is set in the 80's, but filmed in 1998, Drew Barrymore has a bangless flip bob.

What? Who had a flip in the 80's?

[Link: www.imdb.com...]

163 freetoken  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 8:36:06pm

re: #161 A Better Tomorrow, Tomorrow

Tech question: I see LGF's host is offering unlimited everything for $11/month. Is this a deal I can't refuse?

Sounds pretty good to me.

164 Sheila Broflovski  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 8:37:25pm

re: #162 Ooh, look, shiny...

As was pointed out repeatedly, in The Wedding Singer, which is set in the 80's, but filmed in 1998, Drew Barrymore has a bangless flip bob.

What? Who had a flip in the 80's?

[Link: www.imdb.com...]

The '80's was totally a permed decade. Everybody had a perm. Well, except for me.

165 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 8:37:27pm

re: #161 A Better Tomorrow, Tomorrow

Tech question: I see LGF's host is offering unlimited everything for $11/month. Is this a deal I can't refuse?

Are you kidding? All you can eat, wear, watch, sleep on, drive, and listen to?

Wait..is that what you meant by unlimited everything?

166 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 8:37:54pm

re: #164 Look At My New Grandbaby!

The '80's was totally a permed decade. Everybody had a perm. Well, except for me.

Me too. Then my hair went and got curlier as I got older. It was still only wavy in the 80's.

167 Mocking Jay  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 8:38:04pm

re: #163 freetoken

I only ask because I know next to nothing about what makes a host a good host. If there's anything else to consider.

168 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 8:38:18pm

re: #163 freetoken

Too easy.

[insert dick joke here]

169 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 8:39:27pm

re: #136 goddamnedfrank

Article 5 of the TGC says that if there is any doubt at all as to the prisoner's status then they are to be treated as POWs until a competent tribunal hears their case. Residents of a non-occupied territory may take up arms upon approach of the enemy. As long as they display those arms openly they have no obligation to organize themselves into regular units or wear uniforms, yet when captured they are still POWs under Article 4.

That's not applicable in the great majority of our cases, though. It surely does not apply to someone who travels from Saudi Arabia to Iraq to fight on behalf of Al Qaeda. Nor did Iraq nor does Afghanistan count as "occupied territory". We fight as allies of the government confirmed as the lawful one by the UN. This is especially true in Afghanistan, where the Taliban were never recognized by the great majority of nations, nor by the UN. So Afghans are not to consider us as "enemies", and for them to do so changes them into rebels against their own government.

170 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 8:39:52pm

re: #166 Ooh, look, shiny...

Me too. Then my hair went and got curlier as I got older. It was still only wavy in the 80's.

Could be worse. The older I get, the more my hair seems to say "Fuck this noggin', we're outta here!"

171 freetoken  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 8:40:09pm

re: #167 A Better Tomorrow, Tomorrow

I only ask because I know next to nothing about what makes a host a good host. If there's anything else to consider.

I've been using InMotion but I've not done enough with my domains to know if I'm actually getting a good deal or not. $11/mo doesn't sound bad, but the question remains: for what do you want to pay this money?

172 Mocking Jay  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 8:41:49pm

re: #171 freetoken

I've been using InMotion but I've not done enough with my domains to know if I'm actually getting a good deal or not. $11/mo doesn't sound bad, but the question remains: for what do you want to pay this money?

To store all of my porn.

/

173 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 8:44:29pm

re: #172 A Better Tomorrow, Tomorrow

To store all of my porn.

/

WARNING: sarc tag indicates that there isn't a single domain server that has the capacity to store all of JasonA's porn at once

174 freetoken  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 8:45:06pm

re: #172 A Better Tomorrow, Tomorrow

To store all of my porn.

/

Blu-ray would probably be cheaper.

175 Mocking Jay  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 8:46:33pm

re: #174 freetoken

Blu-ray would probably be cheaper.

But then I still need to have a porn buddy and I'm trying to cut out the middle man...

176 Mocking Jay  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 8:48:08pm

re: #173 Slumbering Behemoth

WARNING: sarc tag indicates that there isn't a single domain server that has the capacity to store all of JasonA's porn at once

Yeah, that's a lot of thumb drives.

If you read that sentence the wrong way it's not my fault...

177 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 8:49:37pm

re: #175 A Better Tomorrow, Tomorrow

It's been my experience that having porn buddies actually reduces the amount of storage need for porn movies.

178 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 8:50:41pm

So instead of the Boob Thread, we now have the Porn Thread.

179 Mocking Jay  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 8:51:18pm

re: #178 Dark_Falcon

So instead of the Boob Thread, we now have the Porn Thread.

It's better than talking about Ron Paul.

180 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 8:51:18pm

re: #178 Dark_Falcon

So instead of the Boob Thread, we now have the Porn Thread.

Put those two together, and we'll have the Poop thread.

181 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 8:51:55pm

re: #178 Dark_Falcon

It's nice to see someone other than me start one for a change.

182 freetoken  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 8:52:17pm

Darwin Day is upon us.

183 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 8:52:47pm

re: #180 Ooh, look, shiny...

WE'RE NOT INTERESTED IN THAT KIND OF PORN!!!
/

184 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 8:53:43pm

re: #183 Slumbering Behemoth

WE'RE NOT INTERESTED IN THAT KIND OF PORN!!!
/

I just put the two words together...

*whistles innocently*

185 Decatur Deb  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 8:53:47pm

Montgomery Alabama is uneasy about segregation and civil rights--in Beit Shemesh.

[Link: www.washingtonpost.com...]

186 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 8:54:02pm

And this one is for PLL:

Sweden continues to succeed, where other European jet fighter manufacturers fail, in making sales. The latest example was the recent deal where Hungary renewed its lease for 14 Swedish JAS-39 Gripen jet fighters. The original lease began in 2001, and the extension takes it to 2026. At any time Hungary can buy the Gripens. But since the lease arrangement includes guaranteed prices on maintenance and upgrades these aircraft may spend their entire service lives on lease. This sort of thing is becoming increasingly popular.

The Hungarian lease extension comes two months after Switzerland decided to buy 22 Gripen fighters to replace their elderly F-5s. It is also used by Sweden, Thailand, South Africa, and the Czech Republic.

The 14 ton JAS-39 is roughly comparable to the latest versions of the F-16. The Gripen is small but can carry up to 3.6 tons of weapons. With the increasing use of smart bombs this is adequate. Often regarded as an also-ran in the current crop of "modern jet fighters," the Swedish Gripen is proving to be more competition than the major players (the F-16, F-18, F-35, Eurofighter, Rafale, MiG-29, and Su-27) expected. Put simply, Gripen does a lot of little but important things right and costs about half as much (at about $35 million each) as its major competitors. In effect, Gripen provides the ruggedness and low cost of Russian aircraft with the high quality and reliability of Western aircraft. For many nations this is an appealing combination. The Gripen is easy to use (both for pilots and ground crews) and capable of doing all jet fighter jobs (air defense, ground support, and reconnaissance) well enough.

187 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 8:54:44pm

re: #184 Ooh, look, shiny...

Which should have been "Poob", not "Poop". :shakes head:

188 Mocking Jay  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 8:55:02pm

re: #182 freetoken

Heh.

JohnP528

I think it's telling that there's not a single event in Texas.

189 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 8:55:40pm

re: #187 Slumbering Behemoth

Which should have been "Poob", not "Poop". :shakes head:

I don't know what a Poob thread is. I hope not to.

190 freetoken  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 8:56:22pm

SacBee runs an article on Darwin Day/Evolution Weekend and local churches:

Sacramento-area churches participate in Evolution Weekend


Comments ensue, of course. 569 comments.

The US is a religious nation, still.

191 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 8:57:03pm

re: #185 Decatur Deb

Montgomery Alabama is uneasy about segregation and civil rights--in Beit Shemesh.

[Link: www.washingtonpost.com...]

Some things change for the worse, others change for the better. Israelis who value freedom should study how Montgomery was changed from its old stance of official bigotry and see how they can apply those lessons to deal with the threat posed by their own zealots.

192 Targetpractice  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 8:57:51pm

re: #186 Dark_Falcon

And this one is for PLL:

I still maintain the belief that we should can the F-35 and license-build Gripens here.

193 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 8:58:44pm

re: #189 Ooh, look, shiny...

I don't know what a Poob thread is. I hope not to.

Now... I... what? No, I guess I don't want to know either.

194 Decatur Deb  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 8:59:21pm

re: #191 Dark_Falcon

Some things change for the worse, others change for the better. Israelis who value freedom should study how Montgomery was changed from its old stance of official bigotry and see how they can apply those lessons to deal with the threat posed by their own zealots.

Well, Montgomery does have a passing familiarity with bus seating.

195 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 8:59:54pm

re: #192 Targetpractice

I still maintain the belief that we should can the F-35 and license-build Gripens here.

It's not a bad idea and its one PLL supports as well, which is why I posted that.

196 Targetpractice  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 9:01:20pm

re: #195 Dark_Falcon

It's not a bad idea and its one PLL supports as well, which is why I I posted that.

Of course, that only really solves the need for new F-16s. The early model F-18s and Harriers would be a harder problem. The former might be solved with a navalized Gripen or perhaps the Rafale M, but a Harrier replacement would be more difficult.

198 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 9:07:52pm

re: #196 Targetpractice

Of course, that only really solves the need for new F-16s. The early model F-18s and Harriers would be a harder problem. The former might be solved with a navalized Gripen or perhaps the Rafale M, but a Harrier replacement would be more difficult.

Precisely the problem the F-35B was meant to solve.

200 ProGunLiberal  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 9:08:57pm

re: #186 Dark_Falcon

I like this!!

re: #196 Targetpractice

Sweden is designing a navalized version for export. Doesn't fix the Harrier Problem

The big plus of the JAS 39 is its nimbleness and turn-around time between sorties. Just 10 minutes.

201 Targetpractice  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 9:09:56pm

re: #198 Dark_Falcon

Precisely the problem the F-35B was meant to solve.

Then I might see continuing production for the Marines, but that would mean a serious cut in production numbers, which means costs are gonna skyrocket.

202 Gus  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 9:10:17pm

re: #197 Slumbering Behemoth

Make me an angle...

[Video]

Equilateral, isosceles or scalene?

//

203 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 9:12:39pm

re: #202 Gus

Equilateral, isosceles or scalene?

//

Obtuse. Clearly.

204 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 9:13:01pm

re: #202 Gus

Equilateral, isosceles or scalene?

//

Oh, let's make it a cute angle.

205 Varek Raith  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 9:13:40pm

re: #201 Targetpractice

Then I might see continuing production for the Marines, but that would mean a serious cut in production numbers, which means costs are gonna skyrocket.

XJ7s.
Problem solved.

206 ProGunLiberal  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 9:13:59pm

re: #200 ProGunLiberal

Also, the newest Gripens, the NG, will have thrust vectoring, increased range and capacity, and updated tech.

And they are beginning to plan for a "Super Gripen."

Edit: Also, we apparently already make 33% of the plane in the US.

207 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 9:14:17pm

re: #201 Targetpractice

Then I might see continuing production for the Marines, but that would mean a serious cut in production numbers, which means costs are gonna skyrocket.

Then how about licence-building Grippens then leasing them to the Air Force while the F-35's problems are worked out? If those problems are worked out, we could re-sell the Grippens (giving Saab a good cut of the profits of course) and if not we'd have more modern fighters to use. Trying to think outside of the box.

208 Mocking Jay  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 9:14:21pm

re: #203 Slumbering Behemoth

Youtube Video
209 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 9:15:00pm

I'm not dyslexic, but I am beginning to suspect my keyboard is.

210 goddamnedfrank  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 9:15:02pm

re: #195 Dark_Falcon

It's not a bad idea and its one PLL supports as well, which is why I posted that.

It's a terrible idea. At half the price the Gripen is far less than half the plane, especially when trying to penetrate a real, modern ground radar cover. The F35 just stomps it beyond visual range (where modern air fighting occurs) is actually stealthy and has electronic warfare capabilities by virtue of its inbuilt distributed aperture array. The Gripen is a generation behind, and wins any comparison between the two aircraft on cost basis only. Capability wise the Saab is falling debris in any conflict against a nation backed by modern, up to date Russian or Chinese air defense systems.

211 Mocking Jay  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 9:15:39pm

re: #205 Varek Raith

Reminds me. My Agent just got her starship. Me likey.

[Link: swtorlevelingguider.com...]

212 Varek Raith  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 9:16:09pm

re: #211 A Better Tomorrow, Tomorrow

Reminds me. My Agent just got her starship. Me likey.

[Link: swtorlevelingguider.com...]

Ohhh, shiny.
How do spacecraft work in that game?

213 ProGunLiberal  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 9:16:24pm

re: #210 goddamnedfrank

The Gripen NG is a design with updated avionics and engines, as mentioned before.

Also, their relative cheapness could produce another advantage: Numbers.

214 Mocking Jay  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 9:17:17pm

re: #212 Varek Raith

Ohhh, shiny.
How do spacecraft work in that game?

They take you from planet to planet, obviously, and you can do space combat missions, which are really just pretty looking on-the-rails shooters that give you, imho, way too much exp. for the time you have to put into them.

215 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 9:18:00pm

re: #206 ProGunLiberal

Also, the newest Gripens, the NG, will have thrust vectoring, increased range and capacity, and updated tech.

And they are beginning to plan for a "Super Gripen."

If the vectored thrust versions work. It's very hard to get that tech to work, and a truly high performance jet with that tech has proven very elusive.

216 Targetpractice  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 9:19:26pm

re: #213 ProGunLiberal

The Gripen NG is a design with updated avionics and engines, as mentioned before.

Also, their relative cheapness could produce another advantage: Numbers.

Quantity has a quality all of its own. The F-35 is an over-engineered bird, one that would fail poorly in a major war due to cost in man-hours to build and maintain it even when not in combat. Not to mention that the stealth that it boasts only works with a piss-poor weapons load-out. If you want a decent warload or a pair of drop-tanks, then stealth disappears.

217 ProGunLiberal  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 9:19:34pm

re: #215 Dark_Falcon

Decent point. Still, this being the Swedish, I think they will be able to figure it out.

218 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 9:20:07pm

re: #210 goddamnedfrank

Frank, please be advised I posted that because of the support for the idea shown by other members of this forum. I was trying to be positive and stimulate conversation. I wasn't DERPing or being in any way stupid or inappropriate.

219 ProGunLiberal  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 9:21:36pm

re: #216 Targetpractice

And the Gripen is, even without the upgrade, faster, and able to carry more. And is just 1/3rd to 1/2 the cost.

Meaning we could get 2-3 times the number of fighters for the same cost. But I don't think we have the facilities for that sort of fleet.

220 erik_t  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 9:24:00pm

re: #216 Targetpractice

Quantity has a quality all of its own. The F-35 is an over-engineered bird, one that would fail poorly in a major war due to cost in man-hours to build and maintain it even when not in combat. Not to mention that the stealth that it boasts only works with a piss-poor weapons load-out. If you want a decent warload or a pair of drop-tanks, then stealth disappears.

Goodness, we're all so very sure of ourselves this evening!

I'm reasonably sure eight SDB plus a pair of AAM fits with JSF F-35, relatively equivalent to F-22 and entirely more potent than anything currently in service. Articulating warload by counting pounds is a few decades into irrelevance.

221 Targetpractice  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 9:24:21pm

re: #219 ProGunLiberal

And the Gripen is, even without the upgrade, faster, and able to carry more. And is just 1/3rd to 1/2 the cost.

Meaning we could get 2-3 times the number of fighters for the same cost. But I don't think we have the facilities for that sort of fleet.

We don't need that sort of fleet, not at the present time. With Iraq over and Afghanistan winding down, right now would be the best time to begin trimming the fat, canning programs and thinning out the ranks. Cold War ended two decades ago, but you wouldn't know it from the way we keep spending.

222 goddamnedfrank  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 9:26:34pm

re: #213 ProGunLiberal

The Gripen NG is a design with updated avionics and engines, as mentioned before.

Also, their relative cheapness could produce another advantage: Numbers.

It's actually pilots, deck space and air crews whose cost you have to worry about in this kind of warfare, and numbers of airframes won't make up the difference. This is part of the reason I'm picking up experience working with machine vision systems for UAVs and other remote platforms. Putting expensive features, new avionics and thrust vectoring in a non stealth package doesn't make it next gen in 2012, it makes it an expensive clay pigeon.

223 Gus  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 9:28:04pm

Humdedum.

224 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 9:29:25pm

re: #221 Targetpractice

We don't need that sort of fleet, not at the present time. With Iraq over and Afghanistan winding down, right now would be the best time to begin trimming the fat, canning programs and thinning out the ranks. Cold War ended two decades ago, but you wouldn't know it from the way we keep spending.

If we have to fight China, or some other power able to hurt us, it might well be better to more fighters of slightly lesser capability, rather than a small number of superlative aircraft. But that operates under an assumption of taking heavier losses (though they would be actually smaller in relation to the size of the Air Force under this scenario), and thus would be very tricky to explain politically.

225 ProGunLiberal  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 9:32:39pm

re: #221 Targetpractice

I should clarify. We are buying 2,883 F-35s for $207 million a piece.

The Gripen costs at most $60 million. For the same cost as the F-35 group, we can get nearly 10k Gripens.

However, any Air Force has ever had that many aircraft. That would be absolutely ludicrous.

226 Targetpractice  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 9:32:56pm

re: #220 erik_t

Goodness, we're all so very sure of ourselves this evening!

I'm reasonably sure eight SDB plus a pair of AAM fits with JSF F-35, relatively equivalent to F-22 and entirely more potent than anything currently in service. Articulating warload by counting pounds is a few decades into irrelevance.

And if you need something larger? SDB's 250lb, which is nice for small precision targets, but if you plan to do anything like bunker busting, you're gonna have to upgrade. And that's assuming you don't want drop tanks, which severely reduces your combat radius, meaning placing these birds even closer to the battlefield.

227 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 9:34:28pm

MAEK MEE UN ANGLZ!

228 Gus  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 9:37:47pm

BAFC outside.

229 ProGunLiberal  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 9:38:03pm

re: #225 ProGunLiberal

Actually, on further rewiew, we did have an even larger fighter contingent in WWII.

However, suffice to say, the Gripen can do much more than the fighters of that era.

10k Gripens is hilariously unnecessary.

230 Digital Display  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 9:41:28pm

re: #224 Dark_Falcon

If we have to fight China, or some other power able to hurt us, it might well be better to more fighters of slightly lesser capability, rather than a small number of superlative aircraft. But that operates under an assumption of taking heavier losses (though they would be actually smaller in relation to the size of the Air Force under this scenario), and thus would be very tricky to explain politically.

Hi D_F!
I say never go to war with your banker

231 Targetpractice  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 9:41:52pm

re: #224 Dark_Falcon

If we have to fight China, or some other power able to hurt us, it might well be better to more fighters of slightly lesser capability, rather than a small number of superlative aircraft. But that operates under an assumption of taking heavier losses (though they would be actually smaller in relation to the size of the Air Force under this scenario), and thus would be very tricky to explain politically.

China's still in the process of modernizing their fighter fleet, but even when they finish doing so, it's still going to be with cheap knockoffs of last generation's fighters. Su-27s and homebuilt light fighters, backed up by J-7s and J-8s, all flown by conscripts who will have little experience in real dog-fighting.

The big danger would be China's air defense network, but that's what cruise missiles and bombers are for.

232 ProGunLiberal  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 9:44:26pm

re: #231 Targetpractice

But, China has made so many enemies, I don't think we would have phenomenal amounts of support.

re: #230 The Hoopster

I want us to be weened off of China. The way they handled the Syria is a great example. There are other reasons.

233 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 9:45:30pm

re: #232 ProGunLiberal

But, China has made so many enemies, I don't think we would have phenomenal amounts of support.

re: #230 The Hoopster

I want us to be weened off of China. The way they handled the Syria is a great example. There are other reasons.

Well, we'll just have to pay back billions and billions of dollars and figure out how to start manufacturing our own ipods.

Any ideas?

234 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 9:45:53pm

re: #228 Gus

BAFC outside.

Big Ass Flying Cows? You poor bastard. They don't even make umbrellas for that.

235 Gus  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 9:47:10pm

re: #234 Slumbering Behemoth

Big Ass Flying Cows? You poor bastard. They don't even make umbrellas for that.

Yep. And flying pigs. I hear thought that we can get 2 pigs from Sweden. But then we'd have to put up with the Swedes.

//

236 Mocking Jay  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 9:47:25pm

re: #233 Ooh, look, shiny...

Well, we'll just have to pay back billions and billions of dollars and figure out how to start manufacturing our own ipods.

Any ideas?

Child Labor. Problem solved.

237 ProGunLiberal  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 9:48:09pm

re: #233 Ooh, look, shiny...

For the debt, that's simple: Raise Taxes. Executing it is much harder.

And in regards to the Ipods and manufactured devices, that's easy. The manufacturing just needs to be out of China. Give encouragement to companies in the US to move some back here, and some to other nations, like Malaysia, Indonesia, Vietnam, and the Philippines.

238 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 9:49:24pm

re: #231 Targetpractice

China's still in the process of modernizing their fighter fleet, but even when they finish doing so, it's still going to be with cheap knockoffs of last generation's fighters. Su-27s and homebuilt light fighters, backed up by J-7s and J-8s, all flown by conscripts who will have little experience in real dog-fighting.

The big danger would be China's air defense network, but that's what cruise missiles and bombers are for.

That bolded part is largely untrue, and the word "conscripts" is utterly untrue. China is making very strong efforts to increase the quality of its aircraft, but the real change is its pilots. All Chinese fighter pilots are volunteers now, and they are far better trained than their predecessors were. Our pilots are still better, but our margin of superiority has been substantially reduced.

239 Digital Display  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 9:50:44pm

re: #232 ProGunLiberal

But, China has made so many enemies, I don't think we would have phenomenal amounts of support.

re: #230 The Hoopster

I want us to be weened off of China. The way they handled the Syria is a great example. There are other reasons.

My Brother..How are you tonight?
We have been set on the path of interlocking relationships in the world..
I look forward to close relationships with The East...We can build a world of friendships, relationships and understanding and prosperity for the world..
Or fuck it..We can just nuke mankind..
I prefer the former

240 Targetpractice  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 9:50:46pm

re: #238 Dark_Falcon

That bolded part is largely untrue, and the word "conscripts" is utterly untrue. China is making very strong efforts to increase the quality of its aircraft, but the real change is its pilots. All Chinese fighter pilots are volunteers now, and they are far better trained than their predecessors were. Our pilots are still better, but our margin of superiority has been substantially reduced.

Huh, guess you really do learn something new every day.

241 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 9:50:56pm

re: #237 ProGunLiberal

For the debt, that's simple: Raise Taxes. Executing it is much harder.

And in regards to the Ipods and manufactured devices, that's easy. The manfacturing just doesn't need to be in China. Give encouragement to companies in the US to move some back here, and some to other nations, like Malaysia, Indonesia, Vietnam, and the Philippines.

All we have to have is legislators willing to throw away their careers.

242 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 9:51:04pm

re: #237 ProGunLiberal

For the debt, that's simple: Raise Taxes. Executing it is much harder.

And in regards to the Ipods and manufactured devices, that's easy. The manufacturing just needs to be out of China. Give encouragement to companies in the US to move some back here, and some to other nations, like Malaysia, Indonesia, Vietnam, and the Philippines.

Better idea for the debt: If we end up fighting them, simply repudiate it. Make their agreeing to its cancellation a condition of peace.

243 Digital Display  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 9:51:54pm

re: #235 Gus

Yep. And flying pigs. I hear thought that we can get 2 pigs from Sweden. But then we'd have to put up with the Swedes.

//

Given sufficient thrust.. Pigs will Fly..
/Hi Gus

244 Gus  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 9:52:07pm

No wonder Wiki is loading slowly for me tonight.

//

245 Varek Raith  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 9:52:47pm

There is no victory in a war with China.
We'd both be fucked.

246 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 9:53:45pm

re: #245 Varek Raith

We're big time trade partners. There will be no war with China.

247 Gus  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 9:53:46pm

My MBT-70 is doing donuts around your globe.

//

248 goddamnedfrank  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 9:54:44pm

re: #230 The Hoopster

Hi D_F!
I say never go to war with your banker

LOL exactly. Ain't anybody with an ounce of sense fighting China, Russia or the US voluntarily. No fuckin' upside and too much to lose.

249 ProGunLiberal  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 9:54:54pm

re: #239 The Hoopster

True I don't want a fight either. But China is acting in a near-imperialistic manner with its neighbors. Almost all of them. And now, many these neighbors are loosely held together because of it.

I think, at some future point, China is going to do something stupid. We should be prepared for it.

re: #242 Dark_Falcon

I see the point of your idea, but I still hate being in debt to that government anyways. So paying off would be a big thing.

250 ReamWorks SKG  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 9:56:27pm

When will Sheila Jackson Lee introduce legislation to declare "Whitney Houston Day" a national holiday?

251 Digital Display  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 10:01:14pm

re: #249 ProGunLiberal

True I don't want a fight either. But China is acting in a near-imperialistic manner with its neighbors. Almost all of them. And now, many these neighbors are loosely held together because of it.

I think, at some future point, China is going to do something stupid. We should be prepared for it.

re: #242 Dark_Falcon

I see the point of your idea, but I still hate being in debt to that government anyways. So paying off would be a big thing.

Oh dear lawd..After college do not apply for the state dept..please!
*wink*

252 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 10:02:42pm

You fell victim to one of the classic blunders, the most famous of which is Never Get Involved in a Land War in Asia.

253 ProGunLiberal  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 10:03:10pm

re: #251 The Hoopster

I believe in being crazy prepared. :P

Also, within the next 3 days, a Category 3 Hurricane (Tropical Cyclone Giovanna) is expected to strike Central Madagascar. This might suck.

After passing through Madagascar, it is expected to strike Mozambique as a Category 1.

254 Varek Raith  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 10:04:25pm

Hitler never played Risk as a kid

Youtube Video
255 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 10:04:51pm

re: #246 Slumbering Behemoth

We're big time trade partners. There will be no war with China.

Not until 2066, anyway.

256 Digital Display  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 10:05:29pm

re: #253 ProGunLiberal

I believe in being crazy prepared. :P

Also, within the next 3 days, a Category 3 Hurricane (Tropical Cyclone Giovanna) is expected to strike Central Madagascar. This might suck.

Hope you are well.. Dang..Wasn't it cold today? And Windy? I hate the wind here in Norman

257 ProGunLiberal  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 10:06:12pm

re: #256 The Hoopster

Yes, it is. Which I'm staying inside as much as possible. :P

258 ProGunLiberal  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 10:07:52pm

Here is the map of Giovanna's expected path.

I went to Weather Underground to see if the nasty cold snap in Europe had broken, and saw this something about an Indian Ocean Cyclone up at the top.

259 Flavia  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 10:08:10pm

re: #18 Interesting Times

Wow, that article is dated Feb 10 - only yesterday! Most recent comments (that I just saw) are 2 hours old, before news broke. One of them makes a snarky insult and finishes off with "anyway carry on she will be joining whinehouse". Despite the contemptuous tone, I somehow doubt that person wanted to be proven right this quickly...

Now, at least, the comments are much more respectful. SO sad!!! So very, very sad.

260 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 10:10:18pm

re: #247 Gus

My MBT-70 is doing donuts around your globe.

//

Yeah, but its gun sucks and its Shillelagh missile doesn't launch right!

/One good bit of "inside baseball" deserves another.

261 Mocking Jay  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 10:10:42pm

re: #245 Varek Raith

There is no victory in a war with China.
We'd both be fucked.

The only winning move is not to play.

262 Digital Display  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 10:11:44pm

re: #261 A Better Tomorrow, Tomorrow

The only winning move is not to play.

How about a nice game of Chess professor?

263 ProGunLiberal  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 10:14:08pm

This just came up on my MP3 Player.

Youtube Video

My MP3 Player has 1055 songs on it, and will probably increase to over 1060 in the next week or so, when I decide to do an update to it.

264 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 10:14:31pm

re: #261 A Better Tomorrow, Tomorrow

But we play indeed. Like a vaguely bitter married couple. We bitch about each others in-laws, each others habits and idiosyncrasies. Yet at the end of every day, it's 'til death do us part. We want what they offer, they want what we pay for it, and vice versa.

265 Targetpractice  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 10:16:42pm

re: #255 Slumbering Behemoth

Not until 2066, anyway.

Hey, it was our oil first!

//

266 Varek Raith  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 10:17:09pm

re: #265 Targetpractice

Hey, it was our oil first!

//

The Resource Wars.

267 ProGunLiberal  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 10:20:01pm

re: #266 Varek Raith

Any news about a Fallout 4?

I kinda want it to be outside the 3+ areas seen. (California, Southern Nevada, Capitol Area. Plus the DLC locations).

I want to see Fallout in either the Pacific Northwest, Colorado, or the Great Lakes region.

268 Varek Raith  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 10:20:43pm

Image: FoT_Gas_Prices.png
You think gas prices are high now?!

269 Varek Raith  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 10:23:35pm

re: #267 ProGunLiberal

Any news about a Fallout 4?

I kinda want it to be outside the 3+ areas seen. (California, Southern Nevada, Capitol Area. Plus the DLC locations).

I want to see Fallout in either the Pacific Northwest, Colorado, or the Great Lakes region.

The info we know.
[Link: fallout.wikia.com...]

270 Targetpractice  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 10:23:50pm

re: #267 ProGunLiberal

Any news about a Fallout 4?

I kinda want it to be outside the 3+ areas seen. (California, Southern Nevada, Capitol Area. Plus the DLC locations).

I want to see Fallout in either the Pacific Northwest, Colorado, or the Great Lakes region.

No news on Fallout 4, but they just released Skyrim back in November, plus the whole legal proceedings concerning the franchise itself just got hashed out last month, so it might be a year before they get even the preliminaries on another game worked out.

As for setting, nobody really knows. Personally, I'd like something around New England, perhaps concerning the Commonwealth we hear about in FO3.

271 ProGunLiberal  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 10:24:20pm

Tomorrow could bad:

The Hellenic Parliament is expected to vote on austerity measures demanded in return for another bailout from the eurozone.

The Greek Government better accept it. The whole world shouldn't pay for their behavior. I've got alot less patience for the Greek Government considering their actions 10-15 years ago regarding Bosnia and Kosovo.

272 ProGunLiberal  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 10:25:43pm

re: #270 Targetpractice

That would actually be pretty awesome. And because of how small the New England States are, you would be visit multiple ruined major cities.

273 Targetpractice  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 10:28:48pm

re: #272 ProGunLiberal

That would actually be pretty awesome. And because of how small the New England States are, you would be visit multiple ruined major cities.

Yep. As well as the potential for taking us into Canada, which we've only ever heard about, but not seen anything of.

274 Varek Raith  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 10:29:35pm

re: #273 Targetpractice

Yep. As well as the potential for taking us into Canada, which we've only ever heard about, but not seen anything of.

Except in Mothership Zeta.
That beam hit southern Canada.

275 Targetpractice  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 10:30:06pm

re: #274 Varek Raith

Except in Mothership Zeta.
That beam hit southern Canada.

No great loss.

///

276 Varek Raith  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 10:33:35pm

re: #275 Targetpractice

No great loss.

///

I expected to get a major karma hit for firing on the Earth.
Got nothing.
Lol.

277 Kragar  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 10:33:40pm

I'm digging the Trooper: Vanguard class more than I thought I would.

278 Targetpractice  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 10:36:24pm

re: #277 Kragar

I'm digging the Trooper: Vanguard class more than I thought I would.

Eh?

279 Varek Raith  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 10:36:38pm

re: #278 Targetpractice

Eh?

SW:TOR.

280 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 10:38:16pm

re: #267 ProGunLiberal

Any news about a Fallout 4?

I kinda want it to be outside the 3+ areas seen. (California, Southern Nevada, Capitol Area. Plus the DLC locations).

I want to see Fallout in either the Pacific Northwest, Colorado, or the Great Lakes region.

You could set it in Chicago, where the hero has to figure out how to raise the money needed to bribe the Machine to let him fight the bad guys (hint: he'll need to pay the Machine more than the bad guys are already paying it).

/On the plus side the architecture would make for nice scenery.

281 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 10:39:32pm

re: #267 ProGunLiberal

Just for shits and giggles, I'd like to see on set in the EC. Or maybe a prequel set before bombs drop.

282 ProGunLiberal  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 10:40:12pm

re: #281 Slumbering Behemoth

EC?

European Community?

Neo-Vikings!!!

283 Targetpractice  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 10:40:28pm

re: #279 Varek Raith

SW:TOR.

Oh, right. Sorry, I got sucked up by a similar addiction last weekend. Working my way up towards flying one of these around.

284 Varek Raith  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 10:41:12pm

re: #283 Targetpractice

Oh, right. Sorry, I got sucked up by a similar addiction last weekend. Working my way up towards flying one of these around.

How's that game?

285 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 10:41:51pm

re: #270 Targetpractice

No news on Fallout 4, but they just released Skyrim back in November, plus the whole legal proceedings concerning the franchise itself just got hashed out last month, so it might be a year before they get even the preliminaries on another game worked out.

As for setting, nobody really knows. Personally, I'd like something around New England, perhaps concerning the Commonwealth we hear about in FO3.

With that in mind, I wager they're next release will be a MMORPG. Another in a long line of such that I do not play.

286 Targetpractice  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 10:42:53pm

re: #284 Varek Raith

How's that game?

Pretty good, though the ground combat leaves a bit to be desired. Ship combat's awesome, though the last mission I ran saw me getting curb-stomped with depressing regularity. Time to grind for better equipment.

287 prairiefire  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 10:43:25pm

San Francisco Polic Dept. releases an "It Gets Better" video:
[Link: www.huffingtonpost.com...]

(and until it does, we are going to stick up for you)

288 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 10:43:54pm

re: #282 ProGunLiberal

The European Commonwealth. That's where the resource wars really got rolling. The EC v. The ME.

289 Targetpractice  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 10:44:52pm

re: #288 Slumbering Behemoth

The European Commonwealth. That's where the resource wars really got rolling. The EC v. The ME.

Middle East nuked into a glass parking lot, after which the European Commonwealth fell apart due to all the oil either being used up or rendered radioactive.

290 sagehen  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 10:47:20pm

re: #140 Lidane

[Link: www.hollywoodreporter.com...]

wow, that was fast.

291 ProGunLiberal  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 10:47:45pm

re: #288 Slumbering Behemoth

I forgot about that little bit of lore.

Neo-Viking thing still stands though!

292 sagehen  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 10:51:41pm

re: #164 Look At My New Grandbaby!

The '80's was totally a permed decade. Everybody had a perm. Well, except for me.

And me; I had Farrah Fawcett feathering well into the 21st century.

293 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 10:51:59pm

re: #289 Targetpractice

Middle East nuked into a glass parking lot, after which the European Commonwealth fell apart due to all the oil either being used up or rendered radioactive.

So what if the oil is radioactive? We'll make the poor process it instead of giving them food stamps. That way we save money and shrink the ranks of the poor. And if you don't agree with my idea, it's because you think people should be getting food stamps instead of a pay check!!1

- Newt Gingrich (or at least what he would say)

294 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 10:52:40pm

One thing I like about the Obsidian treatment over the Bethesda treatment...

They did away with the whole "Enemies Scale To Your Level" bullshit.

If there is anything an old school FO fan knows, it's this: Deathclaws.

Even if you're a high level, fully equipped, power armored baddass... one Deathclaw should make you check your ammo. Two Deathclaws should make your soul pee a little. More than four should make you run for your life.

295 Varek Raith  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 10:53:58pm

re: #294 Slumbering Behemoth

One thing I like about the Obsidian treatment over the Bethesda treatment...

They did away with the whole "Enemies Scale To Your Level" bullshit.

If there is anything an old school FO fan knows, it's this: Deathclaws.

Even if you're a high level, fully equipped, power armored baddass... one Deathclaw should make you check your ammo. Two Deathclaws should make your soul pee a little. More than four should make you run for your life.

OH GOD DEATHCLAWS.

296 Altermite  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 10:55:05pm

re: #280 Dark_Falcon

You could set it in Chicago, where the hero has to figure out how to raise the money needed to bribe the Machine to let him fight the bad guys (hint: he'll need to pay the Machine more than the bad guys are already paying it).

/On the plus side the architecture would make for nice scenery.

I'd like a new tactical in the vein of BOS

297 Varek Raith  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 10:55:05pm

re: #294 Slumbering Behemoth

One thing I like about the Obsidian treatment over the Bethesda treatment...

They did away with the whole "Enemies Scale To Your Level" bullshit.

If there is anything an old school FO fan knows, it's this: Deathclaws.

Even if you're a high level, fully equipped, power armored baddass... one Deathclaw should make you check your ammo. Two Deathclaws should make your soul pee a little. More than four should make you run for your life.

Level scaling is lame.
In Skyrim I run into bears who are harder to kill than dragons.
WTF?

298 Varek Raith  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 10:57:11pm

Speaking of games, watch this.

Youtube Video
299 ProGunLiberal  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 10:58:07pm

re: #298 Varek Raith

Anyone seen this mod for Skyrim?

Youtube Video
300 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 11:00:06pm

re: #291 ProGunLiberal

I am a Glittering Gem of Hatred, after all.

301 Targetpractice  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 11:02:30pm

re: #294 Slumbering Behemoth

One thing I like about the Obsidian treatment over the Bethesda treatment...

They did away with the whole "Enemies Scale To Your Level" bullshit.

If there is anything an old school FO fan knows, it's this: Deathclaws.

Even if you're a high level, fully equipped, power armored baddass... one Deathclaw should make you check your ammo. Two Deathclaws should make your soul pee a little. More than four should make you run for your life.

They still have level-scaling, it's just they brought back Damage Threshold, which was left out of FO3. And pretty much did away with the random spawn points as well.

302 Mich-again  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 11:03:17pm

Whitney Houston... Kinda like the Hank Williams of our time. She took pop music to a whole different level but never got the credit because everyone was more concerned about all the scandals. Maybe someday people will realize that talent doesn't come pre-packaged with survival instincts.

303 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 11:03:29pm

re: #297 Varek Raith

It is the laziest, gawt-awful thing ever implemented in a CRPG. In a long line of lazy, gawt-awful things Bethesda has implemented in their CRPGs. Feh.

304 ProGunLiberal  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 11:03:35pm

re: #298 Varek Raith

Or this:

I must go, my people need me.

305 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 11:23:58pm

One of the things I did like about Morrowind? Just because I found it pleasantly weird...

Whenever you found one of those Daedric shrine statues that would talk to you and give you quests, if you went into the right camera mode you could see your character's eyes glowing, and it's lips moving along to the ancient god's words.

306 Lidane  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 11:25:06pm

re: #277 Kragar

I'm digging the Trooper: Vanguard class more than I thought I would.

That's my latest alt character. I like it. For the moment, though, my Smuggler/Scoundrel is taking center stage. I'm going to get her to 50 before I play any of my other characters.

307 Kragar  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 11:27:25pm

re: #306 Lidane

That's my latest alt character. I like it. For the moment, though, my Smuggler/Scoundrel is taking center stage. I'm going to get her to 50 before I play any of my other characters.

I rolled a smuggler first, but having way too much fun as a dark side assault specialist.

308 Mocking Jay  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 11:28:13pm

re: #299 ProGunLiberal

Wow. I didn't realize people had gotten that bored with that game...

309 Mocking Jay  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 11:29:04pm

re: #307 Kragar

I rolled a smuggler first, but having way too much fun as a dark side assault specialist.

Vanguard/Powertech never grabbed me. Merc/Commando all the way. If I'm getting up close and personal, I'm doing it with my Juggernaut.

310 Mocking Jay  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 11:29:45pm

re: #306 Lidane

That's my latest alt character. I like it. For the moment, though, my Smuggler/Scoundrel is taking center stage. I'm going to get her to 50 before I play any of my other characters.

I'm really shocked you haven't gotten her there yet. Do you have a real life on the side too or something?

311 Lidane  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 11:36:00pm

re: #299 ProGunLiberal

Anyone seen this mod for Skyrim?

[Video]

OK. That's funny. XD

312 Lidane  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 11:42:27pm

re: #310 A Better Tomorrow, Tomorrow

I'm really shocked you haven't gotten her there yet. Do you have a real life on the side too or something?

Heh, yeah. Between grad school and the fact that I started playing other characters, I don't have anyone at 50 yet. I've got a Jedi Guardian in the low 30's that's almost off Tattooine (damn bonus series quests) and a Jedi Shadow and the Trooper Vanguard that are both in their teens.

The Smuggler is just about to hit 43 and is almost done with Hoth. Thank goodness. I don't think I can stare at virtual snow anymore.

313 Mocking Jay  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 11:45:09pm

re: #312 Lidane

Ah. My Sith Sorcerer is at 41 now. Absolutely love that class.

314 Targetpractice  Sat, Feb 11, 2012 11:58:40pm

Swore I'd never get caught up in a MMORPG...and then Star Trek Online went free-to-play. Really should learn to keep my big mouth shut.

315 Kragar  Sun, Feb 12, 2012 12:05:25am

re: #313 A Better Tomorrow, Tomorrow

Ah. My Sith Sorcerer is at 41 now. Absolutely love that class.

I like running my Sith Agent, but the wife wanted to run a Jedi first, so now I'm working on the Republic side.

316 Mocking Jay  Sun, Feb 12, 2012 12:09:48am

re: #315 Kragar

I like running my Sith Agent, but the wife wanted to run a Jedi first, so now I'm working on the Republic side.

At least you can go Republic and still be evil...

I was playing a Trooper last night and laughed my ass off when I walked into a compound to find someone's missing son. The dialogue line I had to pick? "Your mom sent me." I so wanted to blast that kid.

317 Kragar  Sun, Feb 12, 2012 12:13:11am

re: #316 A Better Tomorrow, Tomorrow

At least you can go Republic and still be evil...

I was playing a Trooper last night and laughed my ass off when I walked into a compound to find someone's missing son. The dialogue line I had to pick? "Your mom sent me." I so wanted to blast that kid.

Oh, my trooper is racking up dark side points like they're going out of style.

"Well Senator, I'd like to defuse that bomb you're tied to, but it would warn my target. Good luck with that."

318 Mocking Jay  Sun, Feb 12, 2012 12:15:06am

re: #317 Kragar

Forget the kids. Take the doctor.

And then there was that Imperial Spy who lost her transmitter. With the right choices you're a damn traitor...

319 Kragar  Sun, Feb 12, 2012 12:19:10am

Just hit 25 on the trooper, now I'm broke

320 Lidane  Sun, Feb 12, 2012 12:21:46am

re: #316 A Better Tomorrow, Tomorrow

At least you can go Republic and still be evil...

Diplomacy is your friend. I took it with my Jedi Guardian and she's at Dark III without even trying all that hard. I just keep sending my crew out to do all the Dark missions and the Dark points flow like water. I've even taken some Light options story-wise with her because of it.

321 Mocking Jay  Sun, Feb 12, 2012 12:22:11am

re: #319 Kragar

Just hit 25 on the trooper, now I'm broke

Yeah, but that's better than having to run across Tattooine. And Alderaan. My god Alderaan... Worst planet in the game. But I digress. Time for beddy bye.

322 Lidane  Sun, Feb 12, 2012 12:23:02am

re: #321 A Better Tomorrow, Tomorrow

Yeah, but that's better than having to run across Tattooine. And Alderaan. My god Alderaan... Worst planet in the game. But I digress. Time for beddy bye.

Nothing is as bad or obnoxious as Taris. I defy anyone to find a longer, more annoying leveling treadmill than Taris. =P

323 Mocking Jay  Sun, Feb 12, 2012 12:23:21am

re: #320 Lidane

Diplomacy is your friend. I took it with my Jedi Guardian and she's at Dark III without even trying all that hard. I just keep sending my crew out to do all the Dark missions and the Dark points flow like water. I've even taken some Light options story-wise with her because of it.

Meh. Biochem doesn't interest me, though. It's really great for PvP, but I like the idea of actually making gear. No matter how much of a money pit it actually is.

324 Mocking Jay  Sun, Feb 12, 2012 12:24:56am

re: #322 Lidane

Nothing is as bad or obnoxious as Taris. I defy anyone to find a longer, more annoying leveling treadmill than Taris. =P

Aww, I liked Taris. :(
I got to kill lots of cat-people!
And I loved the atmosphere of that zone in general. A beautiful, clear night with a moon shining down on you and ruined skyscrapers all around.

325 Lidane  Sun, Feb 12, 2012 12:25:30am

re: #323 A Better Tomorrow, Tomorrow

Meh. Biochem doesn't interest me, though. It's really great for PvP, but I like the idea of actually making gear. No matter how much of a money pit it actually is.

I took Biochem only because I couldn't think of anything else to do with her skills-wise. The side benefit was Diplomacy, which lets me be totally evil and Dark without being a complete raving bitch in the game. Haha.

326 Lidane  Sun, Feb 12, 2012 12:28:40am

re: #324 A Better Tomorrow, Tomorrow

Aww, I liked Taris. :(
I got to kill lots of cat-people!
And I loved the atmosphere of that zone in general. A beautiful, clear night with a moon shining down on you and ruined skyscrapers all around.

I got tired of all the rakghouls. Plus, I did every possible mission on Taris and it out-leveled me for Nar Shadda and every planet since. Hoth is level 37-41. I'm almost 43. By the time I get to Belsavis, which is 41-44, I'll be higher level than every quest and mob there. =/

327 Kragar  Sun, Feb 12, 2012 12:43:03am

re: #323 A Better Tomorrow, Tomorrow

Meh. Biochem doesn't interest me, though. It's really great for PvP, but I like the idea of actually making gear. No matter how much of a money pit it actually is.

I'm cybertech, loving it.

328 researchok  Sun, Feb 12, 2012 1:20:39am

Morning, all

329 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Feb 12, 2012 2:34:58am

Reporters Without Borders poster.
SFW.
Image: press_freedom_putin_ibelieveinadv-412x587.jpg

330 Kragar  Sun, Feb 12, 2012 2:40:33am

Video Shows Syrian Anti-Aircraft Tank Firing Randomly Into Peoples' Homes

The above video, uploaded on Saturday to YouTube, appears to show a Syrian army anti-aircraft tank firing wildly into an urban neighborhood in the city of Douma, just outside of Damascus. As the tank swivels and aims, apparently at random, two posters of Syrian President Bashar al-Assad are visible on either side of the turret.

The tank, which Chris Albon of FrontlineSMS identified as a Russian ZSU-23-4 "Shilka," fires enormous 23-millimeter rounds that are meant to destroy far-away aircraft. A few rounds, fired in Syria's dense and old architecture, could tear through dozens of houses, as is surely the point. "AA-guns are brutal weapon to use against civilians," Albon tweeted, "but sadly not uncommon." According to Dan Murphy of the Christian Science Monitor, "they were used a lot by Qaddafi in Libya. One of those rounds will rip a body in two."

This sort of irrational, random killing -- brought not to anti-regime militants or even protesters on the street but to families cowering in their homes -- may help explain why Syrian activists say 59 children have been killed in the week since China and Russia vetoed a UN Security Council resolution calling for Assad's resignation. The Syrian regime has often targeted children in the now months-long crackdown.

331 freetoken  Sun, Feb 12, 2012 3:24:15am
MP3 Audio
332 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Feb 12, 2012 3:47:46am

Didn't talk (or think) about Whitney Houston very often. Except once a year.

I'd argue before the Super Bowl that Whitney had the best Super Bowl National Anthem performance.

No one ever came close.

333 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Feb 12, 2012 3:54:18am

re: #8 freetoken

I didn't even know the Grammys were tomorrow night. This should be a shock wave for that crowd.

Let's hope so.

334 RogueOne  Sun, Feb 12, 2012 4:11:23am

re: #52 researchok

True- but she was incapable of dealing with her demons.

She truly was a victim of disease.

Sometimes, I'm conflicted. On the one hand, I beoieve some drugs ought to be decriminalized.

On the other hand, these kinds of events make me believe we just can't have a wild west out there.

I suspect her kids and those close to her might agree.

The fact that they were illegal did nothing to stop her habit. If someone is hell bent on destroying their health and their lives they'll find a way.

335 Obdicut  Sun, Feb 12, 2012 4:26:47am

re: #334 RogueOne

Severely addictive drugs shouldn't be criminalized, but their sale and use has to be under medical auspices, with an aim to getting people to the lowest sustainable dose if not off it entirely.

You can't just fully legalize it, or you have corporations with a vested interest in getting people addicted.

336 RogueOne  Sun, Feb 12, 2012 4:29:10am

re: #335 Obdicut

Half of me wants to say "legalize everything" but I'm afraid you're correct. Amplifying the number of people who would have a vested interest in addicting other people by 1000% can't end well.

337 Shiplord Kirel  Sun, Feb 12, 2012 4:30:32am

re: #330 Kragar

Video Shows Syrian Anti-Aircraft Tank Firing Randomly Into Peoples' Homes

Yep, ZSU-23-4 Shilka. This has 4 23mm automatic cannon. It fires either solid armor piercing shot or a small explosive shell. The latter has about the same effect as a hand grenade, but with the kinetic energy of its very high velocity added (1000 m/sec). Rate of fire for the whole mount is as high as 4,000 rounds per minute. There is also a highly effective incendiary round, usually mixed with HE at a 3/1 ratio.

338 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Feb 12, 2012 4:39:34am

re: #335 Obdicut

Severely addictive drugs shouldn't be criminalized, but their sale and use has to be under medical auspices, with an aim to getting people to the lowest sustainable dose if not off it entirely.

I'm not sure. The whole addiction thing... takes more and more volume of drug for the same high, and the addict wants to get higher and higher...

I don't see an addict being very cooperative with the "medical auspices". I see an addict ready to "choke a person that won't give me my medicine."

The drug war, however, is fucking insane.

339 Obdicut  Sun, Feb 12, 2012 4:45:56am

re: #338 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Programs like this do work, because most addicts aren't seeking the bigger high, they're just seeking relief from withdrawal. When you first get into it, you're after the high, but very quickly you're just trying to stop the horrible shit that goes on in withdrawal.

Works for everyone? No. Works for a much larger group of people than any other approach? Yep.

340 Shropshire_Slasher  Sun, Feb 12, 2012 4:49:50am

re: #118 Slumbering Behemoth
What you referred to are the twelve steps.
Many times at the end of a meeting the group will have say the Serenity Prayer:
“God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, courage to change the things I can, and wisdom to know the difference.”
Ending with the group standing in a circle holding holds and chanting:
"Keep coming back"
AA does not want famous people endorsing them
AA does not accept donations over $3,000

341 Shropshire_Slasher  Sun, Feb 12, 2012 4:54:49am

re: #340 Tommy

AAA will tow your car or give you a jump.

342 Dire Straits  Sun, Feb 12, 2012 5:06:03am

"So Emotional" is a great song.

343 Kragar  Sun, Feb 12, 2012 5:24:57am

re: #337 Shiplord Kirel

Yep, ZSU-23-4 Shilka. This has 4 23mm automatic cannon. It fires either solid armor piercing shot or a small explosive shell. The latter has about the same effect as a hand grenade, but with the kinetic energy of its very high velocity added (1000 m/sec). Rate of fire for the whole mount is as high as 4,000 rounds per minute. There is also a highly effective incendiary round, usually mixed with HE at a 3/1 ratio.

The category is "Things which should never be used against innocent civilians" for $500, Alex.

Sure is nice to see that Russian hardware in action. I can see now why Putin vetoed stopping them.
/

344 Decatur Deb  Sun, Feb 12, 2012 5:44:40am

re: #336 RogueOne

Half of me wants to say "legalize everything" but I'm afraid you're correct. Amplifying the number of people who would have a vested interest in addicting other people by 1000% can't end well.

It's not enough to legalize--the market incentive must be destroyed and the risks of distribution kept in place. Legalize all use, provide drugs free of cost as part of a single-payer medical system,and keep draconian punishments in place for outlaw production and distribution. High risk minus profit equals no recruiting. We liberals know how to wreck a market.

345 Varek Raith  Sun, Feb 12, 2012 6:16:23am

re: #330 Kragar

Video Shows Syrian Anti-Aircraft Tank Firing Randomly Into Peoples' Homes

And some of the comments are stupid.
One was seemingly trying to mitigate what was going on by say that they only fired a few round.
Jackass has no idea how an AA round works.

346 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sun, Feb 12, 2012 6:31:40am

I dated a guy in the 80's who was extremely prejudiced.

He said he'd marry Whitney Houston.

I'll never forget that. She was so incredibilyl special that even the most hatefilled person couldn't deny it.

347 Killgore Trout  Sun, Feb 12, 2012 6:31:43am

Interpol accused after journalist arrested over Muhammad tweet

Interpol has been accused of abusing its powers after Saudi Arabia used the organisation's red notice system to get a journalist arrested in Malaysia for insulting the Prophet Muhammad.

Police in Kuala Lumpur said Hamza Kashgari, 23, was detained at the airport "following a request made to us by Interpol" the international police cooperation agency, on behalf of the Saudi authorities.

Kashgari, a newspaper columnist, fled Saudi Arabia after posting a tweet on the prophet's birthday that sparked more than 30,000 responses and several death threats. The posting, which was later deleted, read: "I have loved things about you and I have hated things about you and there is a lot I don't understand about you … I will not pray for you."

More than 13,000 people joined a Facebook page titled "The Saudi People Demand the Execution of Hamza Kashgari".

Clerics in Saudi Arabia called for him to be charged with apostasy, a religious offence punishable by death. Reports suggest that the Malaysian authorities intend to return him to his native country.

348 Killgore Trout  Sun, Feb 12, 2012 6:33:56am

re: #347 Killgore Trout

Update: Malaysia deports Hamza Kashgari, Saudi journalist accused of insulting Prophet Muhammad

The Malaysian government confirmed that Kashgari, 23, was today sent back to Saudi Arabia, where he fled last week, on a private plane, in the custody of Saudi officials.

349 AK-47%  Sun, Feb 12, 2012 6:43:27am

re: #336 RogueOne

Half of me wants to say "legalize everything" but I'm afraid you're correct. Amplifying the number of people who would have a vested interest in addicting other people by 1000% can't end well.

"Legalize" does not mean to totally remove all rules and restrictions.

350 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sun, Feb 12, 2012 6:43:44am

re: #348 Killgore Trout

Update: Malaysia deports Hamza Kashgari, Saudi journalist accused of insulting Prophet Muhammad

Free Speech is a wonderful thing.

We are very lucky.

351 Gus  Sun, Feb 12, 2012 6:48:30am

re: #348 Killgore Trout

Update: Malaysia deports Hamza Kashgari, Saudi journalist accused of insulting Prophet Muhammad

Dismay After Indonesian Atheist Charged With Blasphemy

Police on Friday confirmed that they had charged a man with blasphemy after he was reported by the Indonesia Council of Ulema.

Dharmasraya Police Chief Sr. Comr. Chairul Aziz told the Jakarta Globe on Friday that the district branch of the council, known as MUI, and other Islamic organizations believed Alexander, 31, had defiled Islam by using passages from the Koran to denounce the existence of God.

Alexander, a civil servant, is facing five years in jail for writing “God does not exist” on a Facebook page he moderated called “Ateis Minang” (“Minang Atheists”).

352 AK-47%  Sun, Feb 12, 2012 6:48:56am

[Link: worldnews.msnbc.msn.com...]

So we have to support Assad now or we are terrorist sympathizers?

353 AK-47%  Sun, Feb 12, 2012 6:50:03am

re: #351 Gus

Dismay After Indonesian Atheist Charged With Blasphemy

"Alexander, a civil servant, is facing five years in jail for writing “God does not exist” on a Facebook page he moderated called “Ateis Minang” (“Minang Atheists”)."

Them's fightin' words, boy!

354 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Feb 12, 2012 6:50:50am

re: #330 Kragar

Video Shows Syrian Anti-Aircraft Tank Firing Randomly Into Peoples' Homes

And that article wins a "Journalistic NONFAIL Award" for correctly identifying the AAA vehicle. News sources so often FAIL and just call anything with tracks a "tank" that it is good to see the Atlantic doing the job right.

Using a ZSU-23/4 on civilian homes is, of course, the sign of a shitbird. That particular ZSU is something that would look really good being hit a an AGM-88G AARGM.

355 Gus  Sun, Feb 12, 2012 6:51:19am

re: #353 Keynesian Kenyan

"Alexander, a civil servant, is facing five years in jail for writing “God does not exist” on a Facebook page he moderated called “Ateis Minang” (“Minang Atheists”)."

Them's fightin' words, boy!

Humans take things so seriously.

God does not exist! Sue me! ;)

356 Gus  Sun, Feb 12, 2012 6:52:56am

Wut?

Image: Macaulay-Culkin.jpg

357 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Feb 12, 2012 6:56:49am

re: #345 Varek Raith

And some of the comments are stupid.
One was seemingly trying to mitigate what was going on by say that they only fired a few round.
Jackass has no idea how an AA round works.

And the 23mm cannon the ZSU carries can also fire API (Armor-Piercing Incendiary) rounds. Those were developed for BMP and MT-LB variants that carry two or one 23mm autocannon. As usual, Russian API rounds are made of Depleted Uranium and such a round can easily pass through several old houses if fired at close range. It also spalls of fragments that ignite spontaneously, there burning damaged houses down. Just the sort of thing for mass murder.*

*: To be fair to Russia, such DU API shells do have legitimate military use against armored vehicles, but not against defenseless civilian structures.

358 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Feb 12, 2012 6:58:23am

re: #356 Gus

Wut?

Image: Macaulay-Culkin.jpg

He's had to face his own demons, too. Lately he seems to have gotten them under control, so hopefully he will live longer than poor Whitney Houston has.

359 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Feb 12, 2012 7:06:57am

re: #352 Keynesian Kenyan

[Link: worldnews.msnbc.msn.com...]

So we have to support Assad now or we are terrorist sympathizers?

Neither! We should let the Muslims kill each other while we evacuate the Christians from harm's way!!1 Then we use fuel air bombs to kill all the Muslims then return the Christians to a cleansed homeland!!11 Turn Syria into a proper Christian Nation!!!11

/Joint article by Ann Coulter and Pam Geller

360 darthstar  Sun, Feb 12, 2012 7:07:23am

re: #357 Dark_Falcon

*: To be fair to Russia, such DU API shells do have legitimate military use against armored vehicles, but not against defenseless civilian structures.


The US used DU rounds in Iraq. The shit's poison and if ever used against us would be called a WMD.

Mornin' everyone.

361 AK-47%  Sun, Feb 12, 2012 7:09:30am

re: #359 Dark_Falcon

If we were not so economically dependent on that region's energy resources, we could pretty much just sit back, let them kill each other and wait for the dust to settle...

362 AK-47%  Sun, Feb 12, 2012 7:10:19am

re: #355 Gus

Humans take things so seriously.

God does not exist! Sue me! ;)

You can go to jail for insulting a dead person and/or an abstract theological construct?

363 Gus  Sun, Feb 12, 2012 7:11:06am

re: #362 Keynesian Kenyan

You can go to jail for insulting a dead person and/or an abstract theological construct?

Apparently. 5 years in this case. Not here of course.

364 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Feb 12, 2012 7:11:59am

re: #360 darthstar


The US used DU rounds in Iraq. The shit's poison and if ever used against us would be called a WMD.

Mornin' everyone.

It's not a WMD according to international law, and the powers that use or have used DU rounds include all of the UN Security Council's permanent members, which ensures that the law will not be changed.

365 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Feb 12, 2012 7:12:00am

re: #361 Keynesian Kenyan

If we were not so economically dependent on that region's energy resources, we wcould pretty much just sit back, let them kill each other and wait for the dust to settle...

Imagine if Darfur were oil rich.

366 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Feb 12, 2012 7:13:16am

re: #365 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Imagine if Darfur were oil rich.

Still too hard to get to. Easier to drill off of our own coasts, as I think we should.

367 Gus  Sun, Feb 12, 2012 7:14:14am

Religious Exemptions for Piety and Profit

A cartoon.

368 darthstar  Sun, Feb 12, 2012 7:14:16am

re: #365 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Imagine if Darfur were oil rich.

We could so easily kick their asses.
/

369 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Feb 12, 2012 7:14:49am

re: #366 Dark_Falcon

Oh sure... Not what I'm talking about, though.

370 Decatur Deb  Sun, Feb 12, 2012 7:16:41am

re: #360 darthstar


The US used DU rounds in Iraq. The shit's poison and if ever used against us would be called a WMD.

Mornin' everyone.

Since 9/11 and the Patriot Act reaction, damn near anything can be called an WMD. (The propane-based Times Square bomb for instance.) You are right that DU is poisonous--that's its worst health effect. It is barely radioactive enough to set off a bureaucratic pain in the ass, and to alarm the surface-gazing press. That's the 'depleted' part of "depleted uranium".

371 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Feb 12, 2012 7:18:52am

re: #360 darthstar


The US used DU rounds in Iraq. The shit's poison and if ever used against us would be called a WMD.

I guess "mass" is a relative term.

372 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sun, Feb 12, 2012 7:19:56am

re: #363 Gus

Apparently. 5 years in this case. Not here of course.

Rape and Honor Killings are legal, but insulting a religious figure are not.

Strange concept, IMHO.

373 Gus  Sun, Feb 12, 2012 7:21:53am

re: #372 ggt

Rape and Honor Killings are legal, but insulting a religious figure are not.

Strange concept, IMHO.

There's a patriarchal system in there.

374 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sun, Feb 12, 2012 7:22:57am

re: #373 Gus

There's a patriarchal system in there.

It still doesn't make sense to me.

375 darthstar  Sun, Feb 12, 2012 7:26:23am

Heh...Rick Santorum hints that Romney paid for his CPAC win.

Did Romney rig CPAC?

"You have to talk to the Romney campaign and how many tickets they bought, we've heard all sorts of things."

Added Santo: "We didn't pay them to turn out," speaking of his supporters at CPAC, Missouri and elsewhere.

He went on to say that he didn't think there was anything wrong with that. Except he doesn't want to engage in that kind of politics. Got it?

We sent an email to Boston...

376 Gus  Sun, Feb 12, 2012 7:26:56am

re: #374 ggt

It still doesn't make sense to me.

That's because it does not make sense to begin with. He's not facing 5 years for insulting a nebulous being but really for insulting a cultural symbol or more to the point a political leader of sorts. Best one could hope for is his release. Right now this is a very obscure piece of news. Had he been a Christian for example facing 5 years there would have been a world outcry. Otherwise, again, it doesn't make sense to begin with.

377 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sun, Feb 12, 2012 7:29:38am

re: #376 Gus

That's because it does not make sense to begin with. He's not facing 5 years for insulting a nebulous being but really for insulting a cultural symbol or more to the point a political leader of sorts. Best one could hope for is his release. Right now this is a very obscure piece of news. Had he been a Christian for example facing 5 years there would have been a world outcry. Otherwise, again, it doesn't make sense to begin with.

The best one could hope for is a population that won't accept such strange idea's of crime.

378 Achilles Tang  Sun, Feb 12, 2012 7:31:46am

re: #360 darthstar


The US used DU rounds in Iraq. The shit's poison and if ever used against us would be called a WMD.

Mornin' everyone.

Lead dust is poison too. DU is just heavier. It is not radioactive.

379 Killgore Trout  Sun, Feb 12, 2012 7:34:28am

re: #374 ggt

It still doesn't make sense to me.

It wasn't really that long ago when laws like that were common all over the world. Laws were inspired by scripture and structured to protect the churches, monarchs and aristocracy. All that changed with the European Enlightenment era and spread around the world with colonialism. Unfortunately this was about the same time that the Muslim world started retreating backwards and rejected enlightenment and other European philosophies as blasphemous and corrupting. Culturally, they never really recovered from this mistake.

380 Gus  Sun, Feb 12, 2012 7:34:42am

re: #377 ggt

The best one could hope for is a population that won't accept such strange idea's of crime.

Yeah, but you know how that goes. Theologically I suppose one could argue if an atheist is going to face "eternal damnation" then why would you need to put him in prison since he's already been "sentenced" by the universal leader in the sky. Others might say that his facing a 5 year sentence is actually "progress" compared to say a death sentence or life imprisonment.

381 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sun, Feb 12, 2012 7:35:29am

re: #380 Gus

Yeah, but you know how that goes. Theologically I suppose one could argue if an atheist is going to face "eternal damnation" then why would you need to put him in prison since he's already been "sentenced" by the universal leader in the sky. Others might say that his facing a 5 year sentence is actually "progress" compared to say a death sentence or life imprisonment.

The concept of "eternal damnation" is convenient for those in power. I'll take my chances.

382 Gus  Sun, Feb 12, 2012 7:36:43am

re: #381 ggt

The concept of "eternal damnation" is convenient for those in power.

That's why they hate atheists. We're immune to eternal damnation. ;)

383 Decatur Deb  Sun, Feb 12, 2012 7:37:24am

re: #378 Red Sea Desjardini Tang

Lead dust is poison too. DU is just heavier. It is not radioactive.

It's a bit radioactive, but so little that you have to get it into your system to cause a problem. The most dangerous route is to breathe the oxides from a high-temp burn, the sort of thing you get when it goes pyrophoric and sets off an uploaded armored vehicle. Foreign contractors hired to clean up their nation's battlefields need to be equipped to do it very carefully.

384 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Feb 12, 2012 7:37:35am

re: #375 darthstar

Heh...Rick Santorum hints that Romney paid for his CPAC win.

Translation: "Vote for me because I'm not morally compromised like that Fatcat Romney."

I'd reply by pointing out how Dole and McCain ran out of money at the end of primary season and spent June and July getting pounded by the Dems and being relatively unable to reply. Then I'd say we need a candidate rich enough to be able to make a big ad buy with his own money. Mitt's the man, in no small part because he can write the multi-million dollar check.

385 Obdicut  Sun, Feb 12, 2012 7:39:36am

re: #379 Killgore Trout

Ireland still has blasphemy laws. Italy did up until 1999. The Netherlands had one until the 1960s. Poland still has them, and they fuck up politics there big-time. The UK imprisoned people for it up until the 1920s. So even in the Enlightenment countries, it's taking awhile.

386 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sun, Feb 12, 2012 7:41:01am

re: #385 Obdicut

Ireland still has blasphemy laws. Italy did up until 1999. The Netherlands had one until the 1960s. Poland still has them, and they fuck up politics there big-time. The UK imprisoned people for it up until the 1920s. So even in the Enlightenment countries, it's taking awhile.

Constant reminders of the importance of the Establishment Clause.

387 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sun, Feb 12, 2012 7:41:12am

I'm outta here.

Have a great day all!

388 Obdicut  Sun, Feb 12, 2012 7:41:17am

Germany still prosecutes blasphemy too, for 'disturbing the peace', but that is more part of their really restrictive speech laws than it is a specifically religious thing.

389 Gus  Sun, Feb 12, 2012 7:41:41am

Obvious point too is that blasphemy laws aren't just an atheist problem.

390 Gus  Sun, Feb 12, 2012 7:46:26am
Youtube Video
391 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Feb 12, 2012 7:49:22am

re: #388 Obdicut

Germany still prosecutes blasphemy too, for 'disturbing the peace', but that is more part of their really restrictive speech laws than it is a specifically religious thing.

Germany I understand (not "agree with", but "understand"). They had one of their crazies take over the nation and drive to ruin and atrocity. Their laws seem structured to keep the crazies in check, with the assumption that if a few decent people get caught in the works then that is an acceptable price to pay for peace. Again, I don't agree with that mindset, but I do understand it.

392 Gus  Sun, Feb 12, 2012 7:51:43am

So Interpol is being used to arrest people for "blasphemous" Tweets. Fascinating. And there's not comments at the Guardian. Now of course the cynic in me knows why there are no comments.

Welcome to the 21st century. [Cough]

393 RogueOne  Sun, Feb 12, 2012 7:53:51am

re: #380 Gus

Yeah, but you know how that goes. Theologically I suppose one could argue if an atheist is going to face "eternal damnation" then why would you need to put him in prison since he's already been "sentenced" by the universal leader in the sky. Others might say that his facing a 5 year sentence is actually "progress" compared to say a death sentence or life imprisonment.

You have a point. The Saud (Hamza Kashgari) may end up getting his head cut off, by comparison the Indonesian atheist is getting off easy.

BTW, Hamza Kashgari has massive testicles. He had to know the reaction his tweet would get and he did it anyway.

394 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Feb 12, 2012 7:54:37am

re: #392 Gus

So Interpol is being used to arrest people for "blasphemous" Tweets. Fascinating. And there's not comments at the Guardian. Now of course the cynic in me knows why there are no comments.

Welcome to the 21st century. [Cough]

The folks who read the Guardian would rather save their venom for the US and Israel. Fools.

395 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Feb 12, 2012 7:55:08am

Just completed today's Sunday Crossword in 28 minutes.

Know what that means?

Today's Sunday Crossword puzzle was really easy.

396 Killgore Trout  Sun, Feb 12, 2012 7:58:35am

re: #392 Gus

So Interpol is being used to arrest people for "blasphemous" Tweets. Fascinating. And there's not comments at the Guardian. Now of course the cynic in me knows why there are no comments.

Welcome to the 21st century. [Cough]

It's a tough issue. As mentioned earlier, Europe still has blasphemy laws on the books and still uses them occasionally. Europeans already restrict free speech by outlawing holocaust denial and banning Mien Kampf. European public opinion is pretty divided on issues like like publishing the Mohamed Cartoons. Even here in the US free speech isn't protected as much as it should be. Most US outlets didn't publish the cartoons as an act of voluntary self censorship. Special interest groups on both the left and right work very hard to get people fired for "offensive" speech and ideas and all too often companies cave in to appease the mobs.

397 Gus  Sun, Feb 12, 2012 7:58:57am

re: #391 Dark_Falcon

Germany I understand (not "agree with", but "understand"). They had one of their crazies take over the nation and drive to ruin and atrocity. Their laws seem structured to keep the crazies in check, with the assumption that if a few decent people get caught in the works then that is an acceptable price to pay for peace. Again, I don't agree with that mindset, but I do understand it.

Blasphemy laws would not have stopped Hitler's rise to power. The problems with Germany's stance and laws is that it plays into or abates such laws in other nations with far more drastic results than Germany's comparatively moderate judgements. However, there is a dominant religious influence in Germany's government and politics.

398 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Feb 12, 2012 8:01:06am

Sorry, but I have to go. BBL

399 Gus  Sun, Feb 12, 2012 8:01:40am

re: #396 Killgore Trout

It's a tough issue. As mentioned earlier, Europe still has blasphemy laws on the books and still uses them occasionally. Europeans already restrict free speech by outlawing holocaust denial and banning Mien Kampf. European public opinion is pretty divided on issues like like publishing the Mohamed Cartoons. Even here in the US free speech isn't protected as much as it should be. Most US outlets didn't publish the cartoons as an act of voluntary self censorship. Special interest groups on both the left and right work very hard to get people fired for "offensive" speech and ideas and all too often companies cave in to appease the mobs.

Right. Well, I'm weird in that I don't want to felonize everything and largely believe in the free-market of ideas. If something offends me I combat it with other measures without the help of the state. Within established groups dependent on discipline, such as the military, that's a different story. Otherwise I firmly believe in the 1st Amendment. CPAC drove me nutso but they have their rights. ;)

400 Varek Raith  Sun, Feb 12, 2012 8:03:13am

Jesus and Mohammed sitting in a tree...
Gay!
Arrest me.

401 Varek Raith  Sun, Feb 12, 2012 8:03:37am

Lol, spell check.

402 AK-47%  Sun, Feb 12, 2012 8:04:02am

re: #379 Killgore Trout

It wasn't really that long ago when laws like that were common all over the world. Laws were inspired by scripture and structured to protect the churches, monarchs and aristocracy. All that changed with the European Enlightenment era and spread around the world with colonialism. Unfortunately this was about the same time that the Muslim world started retreating backwards and rejected enlightenment and other European philosophies as blasphemous and corrupting. Culturally, they never really recovered from this mistake.

And we are not in a position to put any sort of political pressure on them to modernize, as we are too dependent on their resources and maintaining the good graces of their regimes.

403 jamesfirecat  Sun, Feb 12, 2012 8:04:43am

re: #126 Dark_Falcon

Generally, we've preferred to try them for violation of our own laws when possible. Plans to try them for War Crimes would likely cause calls for an international tribunal to handle the trials, and that idea would be unacceptable to the US.

Why would it be unacceptable? And since when do you speak for the entire US?

404 Gus  Sun, Feb 12, 2012 8:06:25am

We have our own way of dealing with differing opinions in the USA: we yell at each other. I like it that way.

405 Varek Raith  Sun, Feb 12, 2012 8:06:43am

re: #404 Gus

We have our own way of dealing with differing opinions in the USA: we yell at each other. I like it that way.

SHUT UP.

406 Gus  Sun, Feb 12, 2012 8:06:57am

re: #405 Varek Raith

SHUT UP.

How dare you!

407 Achilles Tang  Sun, Feb 12, 2012 8:08:26am

re: #383 Decatur Deb

It's a bit radioactive, but so little that you have to get it into your system to cause a problem. The most dangerous route is to breathe the oxides from a high-temp burn, the sort of thing you get when it goes pyrophoric and sets off an uploaded armored vehicle. Foreign contractors hired to clean up their nation's battlefields need to be equipped to do it very carefully.

Yes, some things are dangerous under certain circumstances, but we should remember that the EPA requires renovation contractors to take the same levels of precautions and protective equipment for anyone stripping or sanding painted homes from the 70's and earlier; for lead based paints.

408 sattv4u2  Sun, Feb 12, 2012 8:08:32am

re: #404 Gus

We have our own way of dealing with differing opinions in the USA: we yell at each other. I like it that way.

My family tried that for years

We've now found a better way

We ignore each other!

409 Gus  Sun, Feb 12, 2012 8:08:59am

re: #408 sattv4u2

My family tried that for years

We've now found a better way

We ignore each other!

Isolationism!

410 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Feb 12, 2012 8:09:53am

I would think the only way an Atheist could be blasphemous would be if the Atheist was to make fun of Athie.

411 Varek Raith  Sun, Feb 12, 2012 8:11:18am

re: #406 Gus

How dare you!

Who dares question my daring of his dare....jerk!

412 Gus  Sun, Feb 12, 2012 8:13:02am

re: #410 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I would think the only way an Atheist could be blasphemous would be if the Atheist was to make fun of Athie.

I don't believe in Ricky Gervais!

//

413 Varek Raith  Sun, Feb 12, 2012 8:13:07am

re: #410 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I would think the only way an Atheist could be blasphemous would be if the Atheist was to make fun of Athie.

Us cool atheists don't capitalize 'atheist'.
:P

414 RogueOne  Sun, Feb 12, 2012 8:14:01am

re: #412 Gus

I don't believe in Ricky Gervais!

//

Now you've crossed the line. The man is a genius!

415 Decatur Deb  Sun, Feb 12, 2012 8:14:21am

re: #407 Red Sea Desjardini Tang

Yes, some things are dangerous under certain circumstances, but we should remember that the EPA requires renovation contractors to take the same levels of precautions and protective equipment for anyone stripping or sanding painted homes from the 70's and earlier; for lead based paints.

Yes--the toxicity is far more concern than radiological effects. I'm not much of a rad guy, but my cubicle mate at Picatinny was the health physicist who ran the air sampling monitors for the White Sands open burn tests in the 80s.

416 Gus  Sun, Feb 12, 2012 8:14:50am

re: #413 Varek Raith

Us cool atheists don't capitalize 'atheist'.
:P

Ask me about Atheism!

//

417 RogueOne  Sun, Feb 12, 2012 8:15:46am

Saudi Arabia decides to get its nuke the easy way, buy it.

High-profile Indian team’s visit to bolster Saudi defense ties
[Link: arabnews.com...]

RIYADH: Minister of Defense Prince Salman will receive on Tuesday a high-profile Indian defense team led by Indian Defense Minister A.K. Antony. Both sides will cover in their talks a range of bilateral and regional issues, especially cooperation in the defense sector.

Antony will be the first Indian defense minister to visit Saudi Arabia, and his team will comprise India's Defense Secretary Shashi K. Sharma, Vice Chief of Army Staff S. K. Singh, Deputy Chief of Naval Staff Vice Admiral Satish Soni, and Air Vice Marshal M. R. Pawar.

“A special plane carrying Antony and his delegation will land in Riyadh on Monday afternoon,” said an Indian Embassy official, adding that this high-level visit will herald a new era of defense cooperation between Riyadh and New Delhi.

418 William Barnett-Lewis  Sun, Feb 12, 2012 8:16:13am

re: #354 Dark_Falcon

And that article wins a "Journalistic NONFAIL Award" for correctly identifying the AAA vehicle. News sources so often FAIL and just call anything with tracks a "tank" that it is good to see the Atlantic doing the job right.

Using a ZSU-23/4 on civilian homes is, of course, the sign of a shitbird. That particular ZSU is something that would look really good being hit a an AGM-88G AARGM.

Don't need anything that big. The Zeus can be swiss cheesed by .50 cal. They do burn nice after being hit by GAU-8 fire.

419 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Feb 12, 2012 8:16:16am

Everybody restricts free speech, the US included.

420 Gus  Sun, Feb 12, 2012 8:16:37am

re: #419 ლ(*ڡ*ლ)

Everybody restricts free speech, the US included.

Who asked you!

//

421 sattv4u2  Sun, Feb 12, 2012 8:16:53am

re: #419 ლ(*ڡ*ლ)

Everybody restricts free speech, the US included.

ftfy

422 Gus  Sun, Feb 12, 2012 8:17:45am

re: #419 ლ(*ڡ*ლ)

Everybody restricts ████, the ██ included.

423 Gus  Sun, Feb 12, 2012 8:18:08am

re: #421 sattv4u2

████

Silence!

424 Varek Raith  Sun, Feb 12, 2012 8:18:32am

re: #419 ლ(*ڡ*ლ)

Everybody restricts free speech, the US included.

Image: tumblr_kwyocwJScg1qausevo1_400_Your_Argument_is_Invalid-s369x413-66328-580.jpg

425 Varek Raith  Sun, Feb 12, 2012 8:19:19am

Ok, this one's the best.
Image: your-argument-is-invalid-picard.png

427 William Barnett-Lewis  Sun, Feb 12, 2012 8:20:10am

re: #378 Red Sea Desjardini Tang

Lead dust is poison too. DU is just heavier. It is not radioactive.

For that matter, I'm sure that the tungsten used in previous APFSDS rounds was probably not good for the lungs & such when powdered after hitting a tank.

428 Gus  Sun, Feb 12, 2012 8:21:03am

US Free Speech Limitations ≠ Atheist Facing Prison Sentence in Indonesia

429 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Feb 12, 2012 8:21:26am

re: #413 Varek Raith

Us cool atheists don't capitalize 'atheist'.
:P

I know some very devout Atheists, so, I capitalize it.

(aggravates the fuck out of them, too!)

430 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Feb 12, 2012 8:21:34am

re: #428 Gus

US Free Speech Limitations ≠ Atheist Facing Prison Sentence in Indonesia

Yes, Captain Obvious. ;)

431 AK-47%  Sun, Feb 12, 2012 8:21:56am

re: #385 Obdicut

Ireland still has blasphemy laws. Italy did up until 1999. The Netherlands had one until the 1960s. Poland still has them, and they fuck up politics there big-time. The UK imprisoned people for it up until the 1920s. So even in the Enlightenment countries, it's taking awhile.

The USSR had it for "Insulting Soviet authority".

There was an old joke about the fellow who got 11 years for calling Brezhnev an ikiot: one year for insulting soviet authority and ten years for revealing state secrets....

432 Gus  Sun, Feb 12, 2012 8:22:26am

re: #430 ლ(*ڡ*ლ)

Yes, Captain Obvious. ;)

Please. Call me Captain Oblivious.

//

433 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Feb 12, 2012 8:22:31am

(US Free Speech Limitations ≠ Atheist Facing Prison Sentence in Indonesia) ≠ US Has Unlimited Free Speech

434 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Feb 12, 2012 8:23:24am

Oh boy! Walking Dead comes back on tonight!

435 Varek Raith  Sun, Feb 12, 2012 8:23:27am

re: #430 ლ(*ڡ*ლ)

Yes, Captain Obvious. ;)

Image: 200px-This-sign-has-sharp-edges.jpg

436 Gus  Sun, Feb 12, 2012 8:23:59am

re: #433 ლ(*ڡ*ლ)

(US Free Speech Limitations ≠ Atheist Facing Prison Sentence in Indonesia) ≠ US Has Unlimited Free Speech

Yeah, but in the end Alexander will still be sitting in an Indonesian prison for 5 years.

437 Varek Raith  Sun, Feb 12, 2012 8:24:01am

re: #433 ლ(*ڡ*ლ)

(US Free Speech Limitations ≠ Atheist Facing Prison Sentence in Indonesia) ≠ US Has Unlimited Free Speech

No one here said that.
:P

438 Obdicut  Sun, Feb 12, 2012 8:24:29am

re: #433 ლ(*ڡ*ლ)

It's not possible to have unlimited free speech, either. The most you could have is no government regulation of speech.

439 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Feb 12, 2012 8:24:41am

re: #436 Gus

Yeah, but in the end Alexander will still be sitting in an Indonesian prison for 5 years.

Sure, nobody said he won't.

440 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Feb 12, 2012 8:24:46am

This is an odd Valentine message...

441 Gus  Sun, Feb 12, 2012 8:25:02am

re: #437 Varek Raith

No one here said that.
:P

Saudi Arabia beheads people for blasphemy.

Oh yeah! They execute people by the 100s in Texas!

//

442 Varek Raith  Sun, Feb 12, 2012 8:25:04am

FIRE!
*Damn, got fined for a false alarm and for causing panic and stuff.*

443 AK-47%  Sun, Feb 12, 2012 8:25:07am

re: #438 Obdicut

It's not possible to have unlimited free speech, either. The most you could have is no government regulation of speech.

I demand the right to yell "Theater!" at a crowded fire!

444 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Feb 12, 2012 8:25:31am

re: #438 Obdicut

It's not possible to have unlimited free speech, either. The most you could have is no government regulation of speech.

Well, I think this is assumed in the "free speech" that the only thing that is meant is the govt regulation.

445 Varek Raith  Sun, Feb 12, 2012 8:26:03am

re: #443 Keynesian Kenyan

I demand the right to yell "Theater!" at a crowded fire!

I'm certain that you actually can...

446 Decatur Deb  Sun, Feb 12, 2012 8:26:11am

re: #431 Keynesian Kenyan

The USSR had it for "Insulting Soviet authority".

There was an old joke about the fellow who got 11 years for calling Brezhnev an ikiot: one year for insulting soviet authority and ten years for revealing state secrets...

State law in the US doesn't always keep up with Fed/SCOTUS decisions. It looks like this might still be a (invalid) part of the Massachusetts blasphemy
law:
[Link: www.malegislature.gov...]

447 Gus  Sun, Feb 12, 2012 8:26:54am

Vladimir Putin's mother wears army boots.

//

448 RogueOne  Sun, Feb 12, 2012 8:26:57am

re: #435 Varek Raith

Image: 200px-This-sign-has-sharp-edges.jpg

I wonder if that one is real. This one is:
[Link: kevinunderhill.typepad.com...]

449 Varek Raith  Sun, Feb 12, 2012 8:27:37am

re: #446 Decatur Deb

State law in the US doesn't always keep up with Fed/SCOTUS decisions. It looks like this might still be a (invalid) part of the Massachusetts blasphemy
law:
[Link: www.malegislature.gov...]

Jesus! Fuck that shit. Stupid government on this stupid, useless planet.

450 Sionainn  Sun, Feb 12, 2012 8:27:44am

re: #448 RogueOne

I wonder if that one is real. This one is:
[Link: kevinunderhill.typepad.com...]

LOL. I don't get the point of the sign.

eta: Duh, I guess that's the point of posting the pictures. /facepalm

451 RogueOne  Sun, Feb 12, 2012 8:27:50am

re: #440 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

This is an odd Valentine message...

HAHAHa! They better start locking their bedroom door at night!

452 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Feb 12, 2012 8:28:02am

re: #437 Varek Raith

No one here said that.
:P

Let's start with #350.

453 AK-47%  Sun, Feb 12, 2012 8:28:03am

Next week is the begin of Karneval in Germany, a week of parties, parades, drunken public revelling and generally irresponsible behavior on the part of usually staid German citizens.

I was pointing out to my daughter that its roots lie in a time when there was no freedom of expression or religion, and the only time when you could openly criticize the powers-that-be and get away with it was during Karneval, when you enjoyed Narrenfreiheit: fool's freedom

454 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Sun, Feb 12, 2012 8:30:25am

Good morning Lizards.

Snow overnight in the Philly region, but just cold and breezy today.

455 Varek Raith  Sun, Feb 12, 2012 8:30:33am

re: #452 ლ(*ڡ*ლ)

Let's start with #350.

Mostly free speech.
Happy???
:P

456 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Feb 12, 2012 8:31:01am

re: #455 Varek Raith

Mostly free speech.
Happy???
:P

Actually, yes ;)

457 RogueOne  Sun, Feb 12, 2012 8:31:10am

re: #450 Sionainn

LOL. I don't get the point of the sign.

I don't either. I can only guess that at one point there used to be a reason that no longer exists and the sticker lobby (Big Sticker) owns the FL legislature.

458 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Sun, Feb 12, 2012 8:31:17am

re: #455 Varek Raith

Mostly free speech.
Happy???
:P

When we start charging for air no speech will be free.

459 Decatur Deb  Sun, Feb 12, 2012 8:31:30am

re: #449 Varek Raith

Jesus! Fuck that shit. Stupid government on this stupid, useless planet.

Finding that took me to a dozen or so state laws/constitutions that require that there be no religious test for office, as long as you profess belief in a god. (Can't vouch for the website's currency or honesty--after all, they're atheists.)

[Link: freethoughtpedia.com...]

460 RogueOne  Sun, Feb 12, 2012 8:32:37am

re: #445 Varek Raith

I'm certain that you actually can...

It's not illegal until you get arrested for it.

461 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sun, Feb 12, 2012 8:33:45am

I'm back.

Anything exciting or worldshattering happen?

462 Varek Raith  Sun, Feb 12, 2012 8:34:37am

re: #459 Decatur Deb

Finding that took me to a dozen or so state laws/constitutions that require that there be no religious test for office, as long as you profess belief in a god. (Can't vouch for the website's currency or honesty--after all, they're atheists.)

[Link: freethoughtpedia.com...]

Heh, in Alabama

It is legal to drive the wrong way down a one-way street if you have a lantern attached to the front of your automobile.

463 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sun, Feb 12, 2012 8:35:26am

re: #448 RogueOne

I wonder if that one is real. This one is:
[Link: kevinunderhill.typepad.com...]

marketing scam, IMHO.

Although it could be a lawyer thing.

464 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Sun, Feb 12, 2012 8:35:30am

re: #461 ggt

I'm back.

Anything exciting or worldshattering happen?

Cats sleeping, tea has been drunk, discussion about military force and free speech rights. Plus the fact that the SE Asia Muslim republics are not very tolerant in certain areas.

465 Kronocide  Sun, Feb 12, 2012 8:35:53am

In my early AM fog I spun my computer chair around to find a 6" centipede on the floor right behind me. Missed the kill shot and he scampers below my massive file cabinet.
20 minutes of furniture moving and a flush later, I'm realizing I won't need coffee this AM.

466 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Sun, Feb 12, 2012 8:36:30am

re: #465 Kronocide

In my early AM fog I spun my computer chair around to find a 6" centipede on the floor right behind me. Missed the kill shot and he scampers below my massive file cabinet.
20 minutes of furniture moving and a flush later, I'm realizing I won't need coffee this AM.

But at least you got that 1/10th of an XP.

467 Decatur Deb  Sun, Feb 12, 2012 8:37:28am

re: #462 Varek Raith

Heh, in Alabama

My town in Italy had a street that was "One Way Except For Taxis and Buses". Took newbie GIs a while to learn that "Senso Unico" is not the name of a street.

468 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sun, Feb 12, 2012 8:38:54am

re: #465 Kronocide

In my early AM fog I spun my computer chair around to find a 6" centipede on the floor right behind me. Missed the kill shot and he scampers below my massive file cabinet.
20 minutes of furniture moving and a flush later, I'm realizing I won't need coffee this AM.

HERETIC, Blaspheeeeemer!

THERE IS ALWAYS NEED FOR COFFEE!

:0

469 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sun, Feb 12, 2012 8:40:00am

Dogs want out,

then,

they want in.

470 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Sun, Feb 12, 2012 8:40:59am

re: #469 ggt

Dogs want out,

then,

they want in.

Cats are superior in annoyance value since they indicate they want out, and then wait in the doorway and re-evaluate the action once you open the door.

471 Kronocide  Sun, Feb 12, 2012 8:42:07am

Yesterday was the trifecta of derp.

'Debating' people on facebook about what's wrong with society after I said the guy who shot his daughter's laptop up is an idiot. Sounds like some consider him a hero and compain that the problem with society is that we aren't left to discipline our kids. I said the problem with society is we consider this moron a hero. And that's how the fight started.

'Debating' on another forum about a recent viral video of a drunk driver in Singapore being flogged. The video is graphic and shows skin splitting and flesh coming apart. I said immediately it was medieval torture. Some douche said 'well, it's medieval to let drunks get behind the wheel after they've been caught so they can kill again.' And that's how the fight started.

By the time I got to Sister CPAC, I was already primed.

472 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Sun, Feb 12, 2012 8:42:07am

re: #467 Decatur Deb

My town in Italy had a street that was "One Way Except For Taxis and Buses". Took newbie GIs a while to learn that "Senso Unico" is not the name of a street.

Sounds like how I'm picking up Portuguese. One reading mistake at a time.

473 Decatur Deb  Sun, Feb 12, 2012 8:43:30am

re: #469 ggt

Dogs want out,

then,

they want in.

Haven't walked mine today yet--it's still near freezing in Baja Alabama. The hoophouse plants squeaked through last night. It held to 30.1f against ambient temps of 23f.

474 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sun, Feb 12, 2012 8:43:39am

re: #470 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste

Cats are superior in annoyance value since they indicate they want out, and then wait in the doorway and re-evaluate the action once you open the door.

My cat is most superior because he doesn't go outside. He get's to pee in the house in his own special place that is kept to his liking.

475 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Feb 12, 2012 8:43:46am

"Freedom of speech" as a slogan is not useless, of course. People more or less understand what the core of it means. Not so much an absolute thing, as a direction. Or an ideal to be followed, though never reached practically. And of course, everybody has their own ideas of the limitations.

Does Western Europe have free speech? Does Israel? Does US? Compared to dictatorships, yes. Compared to the ideal, no. Compared to each other? "Interesting question." So, let's keep in mind that the concept is pretty much incoherent, although political concepts don't need to be coherent.

476 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sun, Feb 12, 2012 8:44:16am

re: #473 Decatur Deb

Haven't walked mine today yet--it's still near freezing in Baja Alabama. The hoophouse plants squeaked through last night. It held to 30.1f against ambient temps of 23f.

Your dog is crossing his legs until you are ready?

477 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sun, Feb 12, 2012 8:45:06am

re: #475 ლ(*ڡ*ლ)

"Freedom of speech" as a slogan is not useless, of course. People more or less understand what the core of it means. Not so much an absolute thing, as a direction. Or an ideal to be followed, though never reached practically. And of course, everybody has their own ideas of the limitations.

Does Western Europe have free speech? Does Israel? Does US? Compared to dictatorships, yes. Compared to the ideal, no. Compared to each other? "Interesting question." So, let's keep in mind that the concept is pretty much incoherent, although political concepts don't need to be coherent.

IMHO, free speech is controlled best thru peer pressure and one's individual standards. Like sex and reproduction, government needs to stay the hell out.

478 Decatur Deb  Sun, Feb 12, 2012 8:45:17am

re: #472 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste

Sounds like how I'm picking up Portuguese. One reading mistake at a time.

I used a kludge of Italian, Latin, and Spanish at neighborhood parties. My kid's middle school teacher said I spoke "Desperanto".

479 RogueOne  Sun, Feb 12, 2012 8:45:43am

re: #475 ლ(*ڡ*ლ)

.......
Does Western Europe have free speech? Does Israel? Does US? Compared to dictatorships, yes. Compared to the ideal, no. Compared to each other? "Interesting question." So, let's keep in mind that the concept is pretty much incoherent, although political concepts don't need to be coherent.

Our free speech would kick your free speech's ass

480 Decatur Deb  Sun, Feb 12, 2012 8:46:48am

re: #476 ggt

Your dog is crossing his legs until you are ready?

He has been allowed freedom of the yard--on his own. All this dogwalking is just so he can leave p-mail for his buddies.

481 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sun, Feb 12, 2012 8:46:53am

re: #478 Decatur Deb

I used a kludge of Italian, Latin, and Spanish at neighborhood parties. My kid's middle school teacher said I spoke "Despersanto".

Hola?

I'm learning Spanglish.

482 Varek Raith  Sun, Feb 12, 2012 8:47:22am

re: #479 RogueOne

Our free speech would kick your free speech's ass

And then your free speech gets charged with assault and slapped with a civil suit.
:P

483 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Feb 12, 2012 8:47:28am

re: #477 ggt

Maybe, depends on the situation. E.g. different populations have different things to incite them to violently turn on minorities. So I see some limits on free speech as useful in some areas.

The point, however, is not how it should be, but what is. The simple truth is that if we speak strictly, there is no freedom of speech anywhere. Only the varying degrees of it. With the US certainly being with the highest degree of the freedom of speech. Still not 100%.

484 RogueOne  Sun, Feb 12, 2012 8:48:46am

re: #463 ggt

marketing scam, IMHO.

Although it could be a lawyer thing.

[Link: dor.myflorida.com...]

DATE ISSUED: June 15, 2010
Operators Must Change Vending Machine Notice

Effective July 1, 2010, the notice that MUST BE POSTED on ALL FOOD AND BEVERAGE VENDING MACHINES will change.

Operators must post the following statement on each machine:

NOTICE TO CUSTOMER:

FLORIDA LAW REQUIRES THIS NOTICE TO BE POSTED ON ALL FOOD AND BEVERAGE VENDING MACHINES. Report any machine without a notice to [no phone numbers allowed]. You may be eligible for a cash reward. DO NOT USE THIS NUMBER TO REPORT PROBLEMS WITH THE VENDING MACHINE SUCH AS LOST MONEY OR OUT-OF-DATE PRODUCTS.

The prior notice with specific vendee information must be removed from the food and beverage vending machines and replaced with the NEW notice by July 1, 2010.

The notice must be displayed on the upper front of a vending machine so it is easily read by the public, unless the placement impairs the use of the machine. The notice must be attached to the machine so it is not easily removed. A penalty of $250 can still be imposed on the operator for each vending machine without the notice. Interest will accrue on the $250 penalty, according to Chapter 212, Florida Statutes.

485 Varek Raith  Sun, Feb 12, 2012 8:50:31am

re: #484 RogueOne

Why???
XD

486 Talking Point Detective  Sun, Feb 12, 2012 8:50:42am

re: #448 RogueOne

That is funny. Any idea what the purpose is supposed to be?

487 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sun, Feb 12, 2012 8:51:07am

re: #484 RogueOne

[Link: dor.myflorida.com...]

Lawyer thing then.

488 Talking Point Detective  Sun, Feb 12, 2012 8:51:50am

re: #486 Talking Point Detective

Sorry - I missed the subsequent discussion.

489 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sun, Feb 12, 2012 8:52:06am

re: #484 RogueOne

[Link: dor.myflorida.com...]

people at corporate headquarters and government do strange things to justify their existence.

490 RogueOne  Sun, Feb 12, 2012 8:52:33am

re: #485 Varek Raith

Why???
XD

I think it's a stupidity test. If the operator doesn't have the sticker on it what other laws have they been skirting sort of thing.

491 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Feb 12, 2012 8:53:05am

re: #484 RogueOne

Wait. Is this real or not?

492 RogueOne  Sun, Feb 12, 2012 8:53:41am

re: #491 ლ(*ڡ*ლ)

100% real.

493 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Feb 12, 2012 8:54:22am

re: #492 RogueOne

ლ(*o*ლ)

494 Varek Raith  Sun, Feb 12, 2012 8:54:57am

I AM KEEPER OF THE VENDING MACHINES
BOW BEFORE MY POWER

495 RogueOne  Sun, Feb 12, 2012 8:56:49am

"Big Sticker" doesn't show up on Open Secrets. The conspiracy must be deep. They're in collusion with those sneaky masons.

496 Talking Point Detective  Sun, Feb 12, 2012 8:56:59am

re: #492 RogueOne

Have you tried calling the #?

497 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Feb 12, 2012 8:57:10am

re: #490 RogueOne

I think it's a stupidity test. If the operator doesn't have the sticker on it what other laws have they been skirting sort of thing.

That doesn't make much sense. What if they posted the notice but broke every other rule? They still need to check. And if they check, they don't need the notice.

498 reine.de.tout  Sun, Feb 12, 2012 8:57:41am

re: #470 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste

Cats are superior in annoyance value since they indicate they want out, and then wait in the doorway and re-evaluate the action once you open the door.

LOL.
Yes, indeed.
All my cats do this exact thing.
The dog? Open the door, he shoots out. Well, or he WOULD except for his current broken leg.

499 RogueOne  Sun, Feb 12, 2012 8:57:47am

re: #496 Talking Point Detective

Have you tried calling the #?

That's a hilarious idea. I'm going to call and see if they can send some soda to my house.

500 RogueOne  Sun, Feb 12, 2012 8:59:42am

re: #497 ლ(*ڡ*ლ)

That doesn't make much sense. What if they posted the notice but broke every other rule? They still need to check. And if they check, they don't need the notice.

I would think they would all have to keep current tax stamp stickers on them so it should be easy to tell if they're paying. The part I find funniest is how is anyone going to know there's supposed to be a sticker there and what number they need to call to report it missing?

501 Decatur Deb  Sun, Feb 12, 2012 8:59:45am

re: #497 ლ(*ڡ*ლ)

That doesn't make much sense. What is they posted the notice but broke every other rule? They still need to check. And if they check, they don't need the notice.

Or it's a proof of taxes paid, like the property tax sticker. They're trying (illogically) to get John Q Public to police the absence of stickers the vendors have to pay for.

502 Decatur Deb  Sun, Feb 12, 2012 9:00:28am

re: #500 RogueOne

Ya beat me.

503 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Feb 12, 2012 9:01:22am

re: #501 Decatur Deb

Or it's a proof of taxes paid, like the property tax sticker. They're trying (illogically) to get John Q Public to police the absence of stickers the vendors have to pay for.

How is it proof is the owners make the stickers themselves?

504 RogueOne  Sun, Feb 12, 2012 9:02:26am

re: #499 RogueOne

The number blocks out of state calls. That blows.

505 Decatur Deb  Sun, Feb 12, 2012 9:02:36am

re: #503 ლ(*ڡ*ლ)

How it's proof is the owners make the stickers themselves.

Rogue and I are quessing the tax officials are the only source of the official "tax" sticker.

506 RogueOne  Sun, Feb 12, 2012 9:03:21am

re: #502 Decatur Deb

Ya beat me.

You noticed the sticker conspiracy too. It's too obvious to miss!

507 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Feb 12, 2012 9:03:32am

re: #505 Decatur Deb

Rogue and I are quessing the tax officials are the only source of the official "tax" sticker.

[Link: vendiscuss.net...]

The sticker is not really a sticker but something that you make yourself. When you register with the state of Florida to pay sales tax, they send you all of the information about the "sticker" and what to put on it and where it needs to be placed on your machines.

508 Decatur Deb  Sun, Feb 12, 2012 9:04:53am

re: #507 ლ(*ڡ*ლ)

[Link: vendiscuss.net...]

So much for that theory, though it means you would still have to have been in contact with the state about your machines.

509 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Feb 12, 2012 9:05:35am

re: #508 Decatur Deb

Since the parameters for the "sticker" are explained in the law, you don't even have to do that ;)

510 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Feb 12, 2012 9:06:06am
(4) Notice to be displayed on each vending machine; penalty and interest for failing to display notice.
(a) Before an operator may operate a food or beverage vending machine in this state, the operator must post a notice on each
vending machine. Token machines are not considered to be vending machines which require a notice.
(b) The notice must contain the exact wording of the following statements in type that is not smaller than 14 point bold face, and
the words “cash reward” must not be smaller than 30 point:
NOTICE TO CUSTOMER:
FLORIDA LAW REQUIRES THIS NOTICE TO BE POSTED ON ALL FOOD AND BEVERAGE VENDING
MACHINES. Report any machine without a notice to [no phone numbers allowed]. You may be eligible for a CASH REWARD.
DO NOT USE THIS NUMBER TO REPORT PROBLEMS WITH THE VENDING MACHINE SUCH AS LOST MONEY
OR OUT-OF-DATE PRODUCTS.
(c) The notice must be displayed on the upper front of a vending machine, unless such placement impairs the use of the
machine. If the notice cannot be placed on the upper front of the vending machine, then the notice must be displayed on another
place on the machine where it is easily readable by the public. The notice must be affixed to the machine so it is not easily removed.
511 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Feb 12, 2012 9:06:59am

The Vending Notice Mystery!

512 Decatur Deb  Sun, Feb 12, 2012 9:07:57am

re: #510 ლ(*ڡ*ლ)

Alternate explanation: Florida didn't really think this through.

GGT has triggered my ex-Catholic guilt. Off to walk the miserable dog.

513 RogueOne  Sun, Feb 12, 2012 9:08:01am

re: #510 ლ(*ڡ*ლ)

and a $250 fine for not having the notice displayed on the machine. It's a trap

514 darthstar  Sun, Feb 12, 2012 9:08:36am

Sharia vending!

515 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Feb 12, 2012 9:09:01am
TALLAHASSEE, FL -- Florida recently enacted new vending machine labeling requirements. All food and beverage vending machines must carry the new labels, effective July 1, 2010.

According to National Automatic Merchandising Association senior vice-president of government affairs Ned Monroe, the change will protect vending operators from unscrupulous individuals who were stealing business and tax information from current vending machine labels.

There is no fiscal effect on the industry from the changes to Florida's HB 7157, Monroe explained, "but complying will assist in protecting your corporate identity and tax information."

The change addresses the wording of the mandatory notice posted on all food and beverage vending machines in Florida. This notice now requires operators to replace the current label, removing all personal information -- name and address, Federal Employer Identification Number -- and using, instead, this wording:
FLORIDA LAW REQUIRES
THIS NOTICE TO BE POSTED
ON ALL FOOD AND BEVERAGE VENDING MACHINES.

As usual, it's only for your own good.

The explanation seems to be: well, you have to display something!

516 RogueOne  Sun, Feb 12, 2012 9:10:28am

re: #514 darthstar

Sharia vending!

Could be worse. Mormon vending machines only give you decaf.

517 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Feb 12, 2012 9:11:48am

re: #515 ლ(*ڡ*ლ)

It makes sense from the POV of an exaggeratedly cartoonish bureaucrat.
First there was a mandated sticker with the full info.
People complained about the info being misused.
Solution: delete the info from the sticker.
Duh? No word on just not requiring the sticker.

518 darthstar  Sun, Feb 12, 2012 9:13:37am

re: #516 RogueOne

Could be worse. Mormon vending machines only give you decaf.

God forbid!

519 Gus  Sun, Feb 12, 2012 9:14:32am

Some day I will buy 12 computers and smash them to bits just for sport. Maybe even make a video of it.

520 RogueOne  Sun, Feb 12, 2012 9:15:42am

Where there's a will to break the law, there's a way:

[Link: www.baltimoresun.com...]

The officers on Saturday got Cover to stop filming, not by telling him to cease recording or seizing his camera. They told him he was loitering, and that he had to move along or risk arrest.

It's a caveat - some might say loophole - in the new general order publicly trotted out by police on Friday, three days before they're due in court to argue in a lawsuti brought by the ACLU that they are properly addressing citizen's right to record.

The new rule says that citizens have an "absolute right" to photograph or video record the enforcement actions taking place in public view. The chief legal counsel for the agency called it "an extension of the citizen's right to see. [An officer] wouldn't go up to a citizen at a crime scene and tell them to close their eyes, so the officer can't tell them they can't film."

But the rules also says that the person recording may not "violate any section of any law, ordinance, code or criminal article" - such as loitering - while doing so. The officers on Cross Street seemed aware of that fine print.

521 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Feb 12, 2012 9:21:35am

re: #520 RogueOne

Which just shows that the laws against "loitering" are a joke.

522 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Feb 12, 2012 9:23:36am

Tomorrow is -30. Brrr.

523 erik_t  Sun, Feb 12, 2012 9:23:56am

re: #520 RogueOne

Where there's a will to break the law, there's a way:

[Link: www.baltimoresun.com...]

I'm suspecting that this is the first time in the history of ever that this law has been invoked against an adult white man.

524 darthstar  Sun, Feb 12, 2012 9:25:30am

Nice Whitney cover...smoke 'em if you got 'em...

Youtube Video
525 Gus  Sun, Feb 12, 2012 9:26:13am

re: #522 ლ(*ڡ*ლ)

Tomorrow is -30. Brrr.

Yeah but at least it's not humid. That's when it really gets to ya'.

//

526 RogueOne  Sun, Feb 12, 2012 9:26:55am

re: #523 erik_t

I'm suspecting that this is the first time in the history of ever that this law has been invoked against an adult white man.

"Loitering" is what got Kelly Thomas the death penalty

528 erik_t  Sun, Feb 12, 2012 9:29:17am

re: #526 RogueOne

"Loitering" is what got Kelly Thomas the death penalty

Had to google it. Let me add: 'not poor'.

529 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Feb 12, 2012 9:29:51am

[Link: www.ajc.com...]

Arab League wants UN peacekeepers in Syria

530 darthstar  Sun, Feb 12, 2012 9:30:29am

re: #527 Gus

At CPAC, candidates decry President Obama's 'war on religion'

It'll all be better as soon as everyone accepts Cthulu as their personal lord and master.

531 Lidane  Sun, Feb 12, 2012 9:30:55am
532 RogueOne  Sun, Feb 12, 2012 9:32:44am

More Loitering!

Teen Cleared in Violent Confrontation with Fresno Police
[Link: abclocal.go.com...]

FRESNO, Calif. (KFSN) -- A violent incident led to criminal charges against a Fresno high school student, but part of the incident was caught on tape, and the charges didn't stick. The teenager is now celebrating a legal victory and preparing to sue Fresno Police at the same time.

Idalia Morgutia-Johnson was 15 years old and hanging out with friends after school when she says two officers manhandled her and arrested her for no reason in August 2010.

The showdown was caught on video and Thursday, a judge agreed she hadn't committed a crime. Cell phone video shows two Fresno Police officers grabbing Johnson and hauling her out to a patrol car.

The charge? Loitering at Big Mama's Grill after her school day was done at Hoover High School across the street.

Johnson told Action News she tried to explain to the first officer that she'd placed an order, but Sgt. Larry Hustedde wasn't listening.

"He responded though by grabbing my right arm and twisting my wrist into my back and slamming me on the table I was seated at," Johnson said, "and I kept asking him why he was doing this."

533 Gus  Sun, Feb 12, 2012 9:32:50am

re: #531 Lidane

My ears are still ringing.

534 Gus  Sun, Feb 12, 2012 9:33:22am

re: #532 RogueOne

More Loitering!

Teen Cleared in Violent Confrontation with Fresno Police
[Link: abclocal.go.com...]

Fresno

535 Gus  Sun, Feb 12, 2012 9:34:28am

Isn't Fresno like Bakersfield but with a museum?

//

536 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Feb 12, 2012 9:34:45am

re: #532 RogueOne

Those police, they're a grabby bunch, aren't they?

537 RogueOne  Sun, Feb 12, 2012 9:35:03am

re: #534 Gus

Fresno

Sounds like Sgt. Larry was in a hurry for his fries and didn't appreciate having to wait in line. She's just lucky they didn't taze her....or shoot up her laptop.

538 Gus  Sun, Feb 12, 2012 9:36:26am

Fresno

5th largest city in California; 1st dumbest & drunkest city in America. Colloquially known by locals as "the Raisin Capital", Fresno is more appropriately known as "where?" by everyone else.

More Fresno fun here.

539 Lidane  Sun, Feb 12, 2012 9:36:32am

Wow. So they really ARE that fucking stupid in an election year:

McConnell: GOP Will Fight To Let ANY Employer Deny Contraception Coverage

Not satisfied with President Obama’s new religious accommodation, Republicans will move forward with legislation that permits any employer to deny contraception coverage in their health insurance plans, Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell (R-KY) said Sunday.

“If we end up having to try to overcome the President’s opposition by legislation, of course I’d be happy to support it, and intend to support it,” McConnell said. “We’ll be voting on that in the Senate and you can anticipate that that would happen as soon as possible.”

The Blunt amendment he was specifically referring to would “ensure that health care stakeholders retain the right to provide, purchase, or enroll in health coverage that is consistent with their religious beliefs and moral convictions” under the Affordable Care Act. Similar legislation was introduced by Sen. Marco Rubio (R-FL) before the White House announced Friday that it would allow religious nonprofits such as charities, hospitals and universities to opt out of paying for contraception coverage and force the insurance company to do so instead.

540 kirkspencer  Sun, Feb 12, 2012 9:39:05am

re: #520 RogueOne

I'm waiting for someone to test that law BECAUSE of the loitering law. Longish quote of Baltimore code follows, but basically the challenge for the police will be to show the basis of the charge, which boils down to either blocking traffic or making a breach of the peace likely.

§ 25-1. Public places
(a) Definitions.
(1) Loiter.
“Loiter” means:
(i) to stand around or remain or to park or remain parked in a motor vehicle at a public
place or place open to the public and to engage in any conduct prohibited under this
law; or
(ii) to collect, gather, congregate, or to be a member of a group or a crowd of people who
are gathered together in any public place or place open to the public and to engage in
any conduct prohibited under this law.
(2) Place open to the public.
(i) “Place open to the public” means any place open to the public or any place to which the
public is invited and in, on, or around any privately owned place of business, private
parking lot, or private institution, including places of worship, cemetery, or any place
of amusement and entertainment, whether or not a charge of admission or entry thereto
is made.
(ii) It includes the elevator, lobby, halls, corridors, and areas open to the public of any store,
office, or apartment building.
(3) Public place.
“Public place” means any public street, road, or highway, alley, lane, sidewalk, crosswalk, or
other public way, or any public resort, place of amusement, park, playground, public building
or grounds appurtenant thereto, public parking lot, or any vacant lot.
(b) Prohibited loitering.
(1) It shall be unlawful for any person to loiter at, on, or in a public place or place open to the
public in such manner:
(i) to interfere with, impede, or hinder the free passage of pedestrian or vehicular traffic;
(ii) to interfere with, obstruct, harass, curse, or threaten or to do physical harm to another
member or members of the public; or
(iii) that by words, acts, or other conduct, it is clear that there is a reasonable likelihood a
breach of the peace or disorderly conduct shall result.
(2) It shall be unlawful for any person to loiter at a public place or place open to the public and
to fail to obey the direction of a uniformed police officer or the direction of a properly
identified police officer not in uniform to move on, when not to obey such direction shall
endanger the public peace.
(c) Scope.
(1) No person shall be charged with a violation of this section unless and until the arresting
officer has first warned the person of the violation and the person has failed or refused to
stop the violation.
(2) Nothing herein shall be construed to prohibit orderly picketing or other lawful assembly.
. . . .
(City Code, 1976/83, art. 19, &sect58B.) (Ord. 79-1195.)

Source (warning, large pdf of full city code)

541 Gus  Sun, Feb 12, 2012 9:40:10am

Going up!

542 Daniel Ballard  Sun, Feb 12, 2012 9:41:10am

re: #540 kirkspencer

That often does not matter. The arrest stops the legal activity anyway. Mission accomplished, with or without actual charges.

543 RogueOne  Sun, Feb 12, 2012 9:41:53am

re: #538 Gus

Fresno

Fresno:

Fourth annual Cupcakes for Cancer fundraiser
[Link: abclocal.go.com...]

FRESNO, Calif. (KFSN) -- A yoga community is coming together to show support for a member of their studio who was recently diagnosed with cancer.

This Sunday, Blue Moon Yoga is holding a fundraiser called "Cupcakes for Cancer!" Kristie Bradley is currently undergoing treatment for colon cancer, which she says she discovered while in class.

I wonder which yoga pose helps in the discovery of colon diseases. I say the rabbit:
Image: 23.jpg

544 kirkspencer  Sun, Feb 12, 2012 9:43:14am

re: #542 Daniel Ballard

That often does not matter. The arrest stops the legal activity anyway. Mission accomplished, with or without actual charges.

point. But I'm waiting for the challenges because the follow-up to that is suits for false arrest (and associated issues).

545 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sun, Feb 12, 2012 9:53:46am

re: #539 Lidane

Wow. So they really ARE that fucking stupid in an election year:

McConnell: GOP Will Fight To Let ANY Employer Deny Contraception Coverage

So providing Time off for pregnancy related issues, childbirth and maternity leave is a more cost effective alternative?

The GOP has left Capitalism wringing it's hands and asking what it did to deserve abandonment.

546 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Sun, Feb 12, 2012 10:17:08am

re: #474 ggt

My cat is most superior because he doesn't go outside. He get's to pee in the house in his own special place that is kept to his liking.

Mine does as well. And we get to clean it up after them, don't we?

Going out for mine is an exercise in doing a patrol loop of the hall looking for vermin to hunt and neighbors to surprise.


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