Climate Change Denial Front Group Heartland Institute Sends Emails to Bloggers Threatening Legal Action

Intimidation
Wingnuts • Views: 39,144

Here’s the email forwarded to me today by Jim Lakely, the Heartland Institute’s director of communications, threatening me with legal action because I wrote a post about the leaked Heartland documents:

February 18, 2012

Mr. Charles Johnson
Editor
Little Green Footballs

Re: Stolen and Faked Heartland Documents

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com…]

Dear Mr. Johnson:

It has come to our attention that your blog or web site has taken one or more of the following actions:

- Posted links to a document titled “Confidential Memo: 2012 Heartland Climate Strategy.”

- Posted links to certain other documents purporting to be those of The Heartland Institute.

- Posted blogs or web pages discussing any or all of these documents.

Please be advised that the Confidential Memo is fake. It was not written by anyone associated with Heartland. It does not express Heartland’s goals, plans, or tactics. It contains several obvious and gross misstatements of fact. Publication of this falsified document, or blogs or web pages about it, is improper and unlawful.

As to other documents purported to be authored by Heartland, we are investigating how they came to be published and whether they are authentic or have been altered or fabricated. Several of the documents say on their face that they are confidential documents and all of them were taken from Heartland by improper and fraudulent means. Publication or republication of any and all confidential or altered documents is improper and unlawful.

Furthermore, Heartland views the malicious and fraudulent manner in which the documents were obtained and/or thereafter disseminated, as well as the repeated blogs or web site posts about them, as providing the basis for civil actions against those who obtained and/or disseminated them and wrote about them. Heartland fully intends to pursue all possible actionable civil remedies to the fullest extent of the law.

Therefore, we respectfully demand: (1) that you remove links to these documents from your blog or web site; (2) that you remove all posts that refer or relate in any manner to these documents or quotes from them; (3) that you publish retractions of prior postings; and (4) that you remove all such documents from your server, if you have placed them there.

Please don’t hesitate to contact me if you require any further information.

Very truly yours,
Maureen Martin
General Counsel

UPDATE at 2/19/12 8:52:33 pm

Greg Laden also got one of these lawyer letters: I Just Got an Email From the Heartland Institute About the ‘HeartlandGate’ Documents : Greg Laden’s Blog.

UPDATE at 2/19/12 9:12:53 pm

Desmogblog also received a threatening letter: Heartland Demands DeSmogBlog Remove ”Climate Strategy’ Document.

UPDATE at 2/19/12 9:21:53 pm

This was tweeted tonight by Heartland Institute spokesman Jim Lakely:

Note: Lakely is citing a tweet by Robert Stacy McCain (@rsmccain) — a well-known white supremacist and racist — containing a link to a blog that recently posted a video created by neo-Nazis, praising the racist novel “The Turner Diaries.”

UPDATE at 2/19/12 9:46:53 pm

More threats from the Heartland Institute: Heartland Institute Threatens 71-Year-Old Veteran | Recorder Online.

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638 comments

1 jaunte  Sun, Feb 19, 2012 8:51:56pm

If a document is fake, why would they think they can control it?

2 engineer cat  Sun, Feb 19, 2012 8:54:06pm

Publication of this falsified document, or blogs or web pages about it, is improper and unlawful.

um, under what color of law is it illegal to publish falsified documents, buttland blog?

3 Kronocide  Sun, Feb 19, 2012 8:54:33pm

Keystone Kochs

4 Daniel Ballard  Sun, Feb 19, 2012 8:54:49pm

So what effect if any would or should this have for a person doing a Page on this topic?

5 RadicalModerate  Sun, Feb 19, 2012 8:55:56pm

Didn't Heartland publish, and attempt to validate the thoroughly discredited "climategate" emails, which were literally stolen via a criminal hacking from a university mailserver?

My telling Martin and the Heartland Institute where to shove their threats might get me in trouble, so I think I'm gonna stop right here.

6 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sun, Feb 19, 2012 8:56:11pm

Excellent questions: What are the exact statutes that prohibit linking to a falsified document, or a stolen document?

7 Obdicut  Sun, Feb 19, 2012 8:56:33pm

re: #4 Antipasta Loving Antipartisan

If they sue you, you get pre-trial discovery. So they won't sue you.

Discovery is incredibly broad. It would, for example, reveal the name of their anonymous donor.

8 ReamWorks SKG  Sun, Feb 19, 2012 8:57:45pm

If it's not their document, then what right do they have to its copying and distribution?

9 Obdicut  Sun, Feb 19, 2012 9:00:56pm

re: #8 reuven

If it's not their document, then what right do they have to its copying and distribution?

If it were written by someone other than them and had the effect of portraying them as engaged in criminal activity, it could potentially be libelous. But it doesn't. And aside from that, libel is a steep hill to climb.

They may, in fact, be violating their 503(c) status, but that is backed up by the budget document, not the 'strategy' one.

10 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sun, Feb 19, 2012 9:01:44pm

Wouldn't showing why it is a false document be a better use of time and energy?

11 jaunte  Sun, Feb 19, 2012 9:02:12pm

re: #10 Meh.

Yes, their method seems backwards.

12 Romantic Heretic  Sun, Feb 19, 2012 9:02:45pm

Snerk. I love the depth of love these people have for freedom of speech and of the press.

13 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sun, Feb 19, 2012 9:03:30pm

Unlike Santorum, at least they know the meaning of the word "disseminate".

Therefore, we respectfully demand...

Never heard of such a thing. Is that like "forcefully begging", or more like "politely screaming"? Hmm.

14 Tigger2005  Sun, Feb 19, 2012 9:04:11pm

I mentioned the Heartland documents in a Facebook post, why haven't I got a letter? I feel left out.

15 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Sun, Feb 19, 2012 9:04:49pm

The quickest way to make sure something is posted all over the internet and stays there forever is send out a bunch of indignant letters demanding it be removed.

16 Lidane  Sun, Feb 19, 2012 9:05:18pm
Furthermore, Heartland views the malicious and fraudulent manner in which the documents were obtained and/or thereafter disseminated

Point of inquiry: If the documents in question are fake to begin with, why would it matter what manner in which they were obtained and/or disseminated?

17 jaunte  Sun, Feb 19, 2012 9:05:36pm

re: #15 Bishop Cornwallis Gobbletot

...It's a series of tubes...

18 RadicalModerate  Sun, Feb 19, 2012 9:05:38pm

re: #5 RadicalModerate

And a quick search finds this, from seven of the climate researchers who were victims of the 'hack'.

‘Climate-gate’ researchers enter Heartland debate

Today, an open letter from seven researchers whose emails featured in the stolen ‘climate-gate’ documents that were posted online in 2009 and 2011 say that “although we can agree that stealing documents and posting them online is not an acceptable practice, we would be remiss if we did not point out that the Heartland Institute has had no qualms about utilizing and distorting emails stolen from scientists”.

Researchers including Michael Mann of Pennsylvania State University, University Park, and Gavin Schmidt of NASA, say that Heartland was one of the groups that attacked scientists based on the stolen emails, which were purloined from the University of East Anglia’s climate research unit.

“We hope the Heartland Institute will begin to play a more constructive role in the policy debate. Refraining from misleading attacks on climate science and climate researchers would be a welcome first step toward having an honest, fact-based debate about the policy responses to climate change,” they say, in a letter published in The Guardian newspaper.

19 Kronocide  Sun, Feb 19, 2012 9:06:06pm

Loesch is ranting about the VA thingy:

Someone please tell Playtex and Tampax to STOP THE RAPE.

I suppose she's insinuating vaginally inserted ultrasound is equivalent to tampon insertion. She's either a moron or so intellectually corrupt she'll stretch the bounds of reason to win a rhetorical squabble.

I'd have more respect for her if she were just a moron.

20 Mich-again  Sun, Feb 19, 2012 9:07:10pm

Well I sent an e-mail to Heartland Institute last week in which I noted the irony in how on their website they A) bragged that they did not accept government support. and B) informed potential donors that any contributions to them would be tax deductible. I mean, the tax-exempt status IS government support, right?

Anyway, the next day I got a shitty email reply from Diane Bast at Heartland Institute. Here is the text..

I’m pretty sure you aren’t smart enough to know the difference between politics and public policy. “Teacher” in your email address is a dead giveaway.

Isn't that special? The tax-exempt organization that was developing anti-science curricullum for public schools apparently assumes that teachers are stupid.

More here.. link..

21 Lidane  Sun, Feb 19, 2012 9:07:17pm

re: #19 Kronocide

She's either a moron or so intellectually corrupt she'll stretch the bounds of reason to win a rhetorical squabble.

I'd say what she is, but I try not to use that word.

22 Tigger2005  Sun, Feb 19, 2012 9:07:55pm

re: #19 Kronocide

Loesch is ranting about the VA thingy:

I suppose she's insinuating vaginally inserted ultrasound is equivalent to tampon insertion. She's either a moron or so intellectually corrupt she'll stretch the bounds of reason to win a rhetorical squabble.

I think she ripped the bounds of reason asunder from the get-go.

23 jaunte  Sun, Feb 19, 2012 9:09:18pm

re: #19 Kronocide

Leaving volition out of the argument is intellectually corrupt. Also stupid.

24 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sun, Feb 19, 2012 9:09:41pm

I'm confused. Is this letter from Heartland or the UN?

/STRONGLY WORDED LETTER!!!

25 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sun, Feb 19, 2012 9:10:59pm

re: #19 Kronocide

She's either a moron or so intellectually corrupt she'll stretch the bounds of reason to win a rhetorical squabble.

¿Porque no los dos?

26 Kronocide  Sun, Feb 19, 2012 9:12:57pm

re: #23 jaunte

Leaving volition out of the argument is intellectually corrupt. Also stupid.

I think Loesch meant to do that.

27 Kronocide  Sun, Feb 19, 2012 9:13:38pm

re: #25 Slumbering Behemoth

¿Porque no los dos?

yes, I love pork tacos. They are delicious, pork tacos are.

28 Prideful, Arrogant Marriage Equality Advocate  Sun, Feb 19, 2012 9:14:26pm

re: #20 Mich-again
Dear Diane Best,
I respectfuly demand you kiss my grits.
Very truly madly deeply yours,
The entire world.

29 Mich-again  Sun, Feb 19, 2012 9:15:27pm

re: #28 The fascist squeaky wheels get the grease

Careful there, she might sick the taxpayer subsidized legal staff on you!

30 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sun, Feb 19, 2012 9:15:35pm

re: #27 Kronocide

Spacebar, you have failed me for the last time!
:blam:

31 shutdown  Sun, Feb 19, 2012 9:16:41pm

@Charles:

Please don’t hesitate to contact me if you require any further information.

Why not write a long list of requests for disclosure of further strategy documents and donor records? I mean, she does say you shouldn't hesitate to ask.

32 Lidane  Sun, Feb 19, 2012 9:17:01pm
Please don’t hesitate to contact me if you require any further information.

Dear Heartland Lawyer-person,

OK. Just to clarify things here: based on this letter, you're writing to ask that classified documents be taken down which you're also claiming aren't even yours to begin with. Also, you don't want anyone to talk about these documents even though you say they're fake and have nothing to do with Heartland.

Is that correct? If so, please write back and tell me how the hell that makes the least bit of sense? Thanks in advance for your time.

No love,
Me

33 Interesting Times  Sun, Feb 19, 2012 9:17:22pm

re: #20 Mich-again

Anyway, the next day I got a shitty email reply from Diane Bast at Heartland Institute. Here is the text..

I’m pretty sure you aren’t smart enough to know the difference between politics and public policy. “Teacher” in your email address is a dead giveaway.

Fascinating. I'm sure the schools to whom they plan to peddle their worthless wares would be very interested in knowing their true opinions of educators.

Do save that email, and perhaps also a screenshot of it with all original headers displayed.

34 Prideful, Arrogant Marriage Equality Advocate  Sun, Feb 19, 2012 9:17:59pm

re: #31 Turnabout is Fair Play

Oh Charles, do it!

35 Mich-again  Sun, Feb 19, 2012 9:18:30pm

re: #33 Interesting Times

Yeah the screen shot is at the link.

36 jaunte  Sun, Feb 19, 2012 9:19:08pm

Stings, doesn't it?

All this, of course, only serves to make justice that much sweeter—the Heartland Institute had no qualms whatsoever publishing and reprinting the emails stolen from climate scientists at the University of East Anglia, which formed the basis for the ClimateGate event. To see them beg journalists to not write about their own stolen emails isn't just hypocritical, it's borderline pathetic.
[Link: www.treehugger.com...]

37 shutdown  Sun, Feb 19, 2012 9:21:12pm

re: #35 Mich-again

Yeah the screen shot is at the link.

Pretty much a dead giveaway that you won't be having a real, mature conversation with your counterpart: "Oh, yeah? Well, you're a dumb poopy-head teacher"

38 Mich-again  Sun, Feb 19, 2012 9:22:00pm

re: #32 Lidane
Its the 3-tiered legal strategy that goes something like this.

1) My dog has never bitten anyone.
2) My dog is always kept locked up in a fenced yard.
3) I don't even have a dog.

39 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sun, Feb 19, 2012 9:22:34pm

re: #35 Mich-again

Heh. That's not exactly the kind of response I would expect from a legal professional.

40 Interesting Times  Sun, Feb 19, 2012 9:22:40pm

re: #35 Mich-again

Yeah the screen shot is at the link.

I saw it, but it doesn't show the original headers. Looks like you use Gmail, so to get them to show up, click the drop-down arrow (just to the right of the curvy one for "reply") and choose "Show Original". It might come in handy at some point if they try to claim the email's a fake.

41 Kronocide  Sun, Feb 19, 2012 9:23:58pm

re: #20 Mich-again

Wow, I sense a wee little bit of snottiness there.... tee hee hee.

42 Mich-again  Sun, Feb 19, 2012 9:25:34pm

re: #40 Interesting Times

OK well I still have the whole email string saved. Funny, the next day the story blows up in the NYT so I sent her a link to the story with a note hey there, just an FYI, don't know if you saw this story or not yet..

ha

43 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sun, Feb 19, 2012 9:25:55pm

re: #41 Kronocide

Heh. I just got the gist of your new nic.

/I may be slow, but I do get there. Eventually.

44 shutdown  Sun, Feb 19, 2012 9:27:27pm

re: #43 Slumbering Behemoth

Heh. I just got the gist of your new nic.

/I may be slow, but I do get there. Eventually.

Well, I for one am still struggling with the changes. Everybody (almost) has a new nic, and I am finding it confusing. I hate and fear change.

45 EiMitch  Sun, Feb 19, 2012 9:27:54pm

And open letter to Maureen Martin:

You are unbelievable. Threatening legal action against those who comment on what someone else released? Someone either leaked embarrassing sensitive information, or forged it. Either way, that individual is the only one who could plausibly be sued. Publicly talking about it is fully protected by the first amendment.

If you're going to use the law to bully your critics, it would help to first learn the law. In case you haven't already guessed, this was a bad attempt at damage control. I'd go so far as to call it counter-productive because by trying to shut people up you've made yourself and Heartland Institute appear guilty as hell. Additionally, making yourself appear ignorant of the law will also further encourage your critics.

It will take extraordinarily clever action to end, let alone reverse, this PR disaster. I honestly doubt that you nor anyone in your employ are capable of such action. Therefore, I will prepare some popcorn and enjoy watching your PR downward spiral.

Sincerely,

a pseudonym.

46 CuriousLurker  Sun, Feb 19, 2012 9:28:02pm

This was originally intended to be a response to jaunte downstairs, but it took me so long to type that the thread died, so I'm posting it here instead.

re: #187 jaunte

The bedfellows are getting stranger and stranger.

Not really, not when you start connecting the dots. The Bradley Foundation gives away millions of dollars a year to many conservative organizations. This is just a partial list of grants they gave out from 1985-2002 (in no particular order—Heartland just happened to be at the top of my list). You'll recognize many of the names:

The Heartland Institute
Cato Institute
Americans for Prosperity
The Heritage Foundation
American Enterprise Institute
David Horowitz Freedom Center
Project for the New American Century
Antonin Scalia
Middle East Media Research Institute (MEMRI)
Middle East Forum
Citizens for a Sound Economy
FreedomWorks
Federalist Society
Third Way Foundation
Progressive Foundation
Berkman Center for Internet & Society
Human Rights Foundation
Foundation for Individual Rights in Education
Institute for Justice
Hoover Institution
Institute for American Values
Intercollegiate Studies Institute
Brookings Institution
The National Interest
The Public Interest
National Affairs
Freedom House
Alliance Defense Fund
Thomas B. Fordham Institute
Institute for Humane Studies
Alexis de Tocqueville Institution
Committee for Peace and Security in the Gulf
Institute on Religion and Democracy

That last one, the Institute on Religion and Democracy came up earlier this weekend in a page Thanos posted called Exporting Right-Wing Christianity. There's some nasty stuff going on with that one.

It's all tied together through think tanks, philanthropies, etc.—many are non-profits and therefore tax exempt. As a matter of fact, I found out a few weeks back that Fred C. Koch, founder of the oil refinery that later became Koch Industries, and father of the now famous Koch brothers, was a founding member of the JBS. Finding out that any of these people have ties to racists or other right-wing fringe no longer surprises me in the least. I'm sure if you poked around a bit you could find something that links Heartland (or one of its higher-ups) to...whatever.

I've also noticed that some are referring to themselves as "classical liberals" instead of conservatives now. Perhaps they're going to try to reframe how they're perceived (especially if they're rejected in November).

Speaking of, there's a document written in 2005 by Joseph Bast, President and CEO of Heartland, called A Guide to Classical Liberal Think Tanks. It's very interesting info and even has a handy list of 275 of of them in the U.S. at the end. If you keep records of all the right-wing stuff you run across, you might want to add them to your list of organizations whose info you accept with a hefty grain of salt.

Also see What Is Classical Liberalism? (PDF) by John C. Goodman, president of the National Center for Policy Analysis.

Sorry for the long, rambling post, but this weekends topics have just happened to be about things I recently looked at, so the data was fresh in my min

47 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sun, Feb 19, 2012 9:28:13pm

re: #44 Turnabout is Fair Play

Well, I for one am still struggling with the changes. Everybody (almost) has a new nic, and I am finding it confusing. I hate and fear change.

I thought that was fear and loathe?

48 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Feb 19, 2012 9:28:22pm

re: #19 Kronocide

Loesch is ranting about the VA thingy:

I suppose she's insinuating vaginally inserted ultrasound is equivalent to tampon insertion. She's either a moron or so intellectually corrupt she'll stretch the bounds of reason to win a rhetorical squabble.

I'd have more respect for her if she were just a moron.

The issue is one of consent, something that seems to to totally baffle the hell out of Loesch et all.

Would I balk at an inserted ultrasound wand if I agreed I should get the ultrasound, and was comfortable with having it done? No. There's nothing inherently wrong with the procedure. Nor is there anything wrong with using tampons, or sex toys, or having vaginal intercourse.

Inserting something into the vagina is not rape.

Inserting something into the vagina by use of force or coercion...now that's rape.

49 CuriousLurker  Sun, Feb 19, 2012 9:28:53pm

re: #46 CuriousLurker

Heh, that really should've been a page, not a comment post. Oh well. *shrugs*

50 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sun, Feb 19, 2012 9:30:27pm

re: #49 CuriousLurker

Heh, that really should've been a page, not a comment post. Oh well. *shrugs*

I'll never forgive you.

51 CuriousLurker  Sun, Feb 19, 2012 9:31:01pm

re: #50 Meh.

I'll never forgive you.

You're sooo mean! ;)

52 Mich-again  Sun, Feb 19, 2012 9:31:08pm

re: #45 EiMitch
To me, Heartland's strategy is like attempting to go around town buying up all the newspapers from the newstands to prevent a story from getting out. I think that is a plot line from an old episode of the Brady Bunch.

53 shutdown  Sun, Feb 19, 2012 9:32:13pm

re: #47 Meh.

I thought that was fear and loathe?

Perfect example! Right there! Why does EmmieG have to be Meh? It ain't right, I tell ya.

54 engineer cat  Sun, Feb 19, 2012 9:32:32pm

Federalist Society

the original federalists were big gummint advocates, no?

55 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sun, Feb 19, 2012 9:33:16pm

re: #53 Turnabout is Fair Play

Perfect example! Right there! Why does EmmieG have to be Meh? It ain't right, I tell ya.

Because I wasn't up to much more than that that day.

56 shutdown  Sun, Feb 19, 2012 9:34:53pm

re: #54 engineer cat

Federalist Society

the original federalists were big gummint advocates, no?

You know, it's funny you bring that up. When you look at how neocons position the word "federalist" and how selectively the Right quotes form the Federalist Papers, you would never know that they were a careful foundation for the legitimacy of central government and federal tax authority. Pretty amazing what you can get away with when vast swathes of the population are woefully under educated

57 Interesting Times  Sun, Feb 19, 2012 9:35:06pm

re: #42 Mich-again

OK well I still have the whole email string saved. Funny, the next day the story blows up in the NYT so I sent her a link to the story with a note hey there, just an FYI, don't know if you saw this story or not yet..

[Link: heartland.org...]

Diane Carol Bast is The Heartland Institute's executive editor. She is responsible for Heartland’s serial publications...Bast is also Heartland’s bookkeeper, managing the organization’s $7.2 million budget, working with Heartland’s outside accountant on the annual audit, and helping to draft the organization’s annual budget. She is also Heartland's chief compliance officer.
...
Prior to joining The Heartland Institute in February 1987, Bast was coeditor of the bimonthly magazine Nomos. She received her Bachelor’s of Science degree in criminal justice and constitutional law from the University of Wisconsin.

Such "lofty" credentials, and that miserable missive (which sounds more like some random wingnut comment on a newspaper site) was the best she could do?

58 Obdicut  Sun, Feb 19, 2012 9:35:32pm

re: #45 EiMitch

I think the dude who hacked the 'climategate' emails is a fucker, I think the cherrypicking of them to distort the record was awful. But I never, for a second, thought that legal action should be brought against those hosting the emails. Against the one who stole them, yes, but those hosting them? Once they're out, they're in the public discourse. Their origins should be taken into account. But you can't unleak a leak.

59 Charles Johnson  Sun, Feb 19, 2012 9:35:42pm

re: #49 CuriousLurker

Heh, that really should've been a page, not a comment post. Oh well. *shrugs*

That would be a great page. I encourage you to post it -- it's important information.

60 Mich-again  Sun, Feb 19, 2012 9:36:11pm

re: #46 CuriousLurker

There is an old adage that says "You always get more of whatever you subsidize" The tax-exempt status is a subsidy so it isn't a huge surprise that we created a cottage industry of ideologues feeding at the public trough.

61 Decatur Deb  Sun, Feb 19, 2012 9:36:21pm

re: #46 CuriousLurker

Brookings Institute seems anomalous. Was that a camouflage grant, or an effort to subvert?

62 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sun, Feb 19, 2012 9:36:33pm

Currently watching a family feud amongst some cousins unfolding on facebook.

63 Gus  Sun, Feb 19, 2012 9:37:02pm

re: #59 Charles Johnson

That would be a great page. I encourage you to post it -- it's important information.

Did Michael Noble get your Tweet because I was just about to answer his question.

64 Decatur Deb  Sun, Feb 19, 2012 9:37:51pm

re: #57 Interesting Times

[Link: heartland.org...]

Such "lofty" credentials, and that miserable missive (which sounds more like some random wingnut comment on a newspaper site) was the best she could do?

Things might be a little tense over there.

65 Prideful, Arrogant Marriage Equality Advocate  Sun, Feb 19, 2012 9:38:00pm

re: #52 Mich-again
Next thing you know, they will be making an album of really cheesy songs!

66 Charles Johnson  Sun, Feb 19, 2012 9:38:31pm

re: #63 Gus

Did Michael Noble get your Tweet because I was just about to answer his question.

Don't know, haven't heard back from him.

67 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sun, Feb 19, 2012 9:38:52pm

re: #46 CuriousLurker

I've also noticed that some are referring to themselves as "classical liberals" instead of conservatives now.

Why don't they just call themselves "The Original Founding Fathers" and be done with it? It's not like their target market, the average wingnut, knows two fucks about what "classical liberalism" is.

68 Gus  Sun, Feb 19, 2012 9:39:09pm

re: #66 Charles Johnson

Don't know, haven't heard back from him.

OK, I answered back to him just in case.

69 Mich-again  Sun, Feb 19, 2012 9:39:17pm

re: #62 Meh.
Are we related? I took a load of crap today for criticising some relatives for dancing on Whitney Houston's grave. And then I just ignored their hysterical replies. You can unfriend me, but you can't unrelative me. ha.

70 CuriousLurker  Sun, Feb 19, 2012 9:40:30pm

re: #59 Charles Johnson

That would be a great page. I encourage you to post it -- it's important information.

Okay, but only if you think up a title for me. I just sort of randomly strung together a bunch of stuff I'd seen lately because things here were related, so I have no idea what a coherent title might be.

71 Kragar  Sun, Feb 19, 2012 9:40:50pm

So this means they'll stop citing the climategate emails?

Yeah, thats what I thought.

72 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sun, Feb 19, 2012 9:41:05pm

re: #69 Mich-again

Are we related? I took a load of crap today for criticising some relatives for dancing on Whitney Houston's grave. And then I just ignored their hysterical replies. You can unfriend me, but you can't unrelative me. ha.

I'd have been on your side.

73 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Feb 19, 2012 9:41:25pm

re: #67 Slumbering Behemoth

That's what I imagine as the best situation: a social liberal party (D) and a classical liberal party (R) instead of a social conservative party (R). (But without science denial, please!)

74 Charles Johnson  Sun, Feb 19, 2012 9:41:43pm

re: #70 CuriousLurker

Okay, but only if you think up a title for me. I just sort of randomly strung together a bunch of stuff I'd seen lately because things here were related, so I have no idea what a coherent title might be.

OK, how about: Right Wing Front Groups: Connecting the Dots.

75 jaunte  Sun, Feb 19, 2012 9:41:58pm

re: #46 CuriousLurker

Throw Foster Friess and the National Christian Foundation in there too.
(7 lifetime board members, a confusing jumble of 40+ interlinked organizations including the National Christian Charitable Foundation, Inc., which gave away $421,155,901 to conservative causes in 2009).

76 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sun, Feb 19, 2012 9:42:18pm

re: #48 SanFranciscoZionist

Inserting something into the vagina by use of force or coercion...now that's rape.

And by gov't mandate, even. That's worse than rape.

It makes her "kiddie fiddler" attack on Charles a bit more obvious projection, because what she is advocating for is exactly what a child molester would do.

77 Mich-again  Sun, Feb 19, 2012 9:42:30pm

re: #67 Slumbering Behemoth

Why don't they just call themselves "The Original Founding Fathers" and be done with it?

Because to the new right wing, the Founding Fathers were a bunch of bleeding heart liberals.. Thomas Jefferson wasn't even a Christian!

78 Prideful, Arrogant Marriage Equality Advocate  Sun, Feb 19, 2012 9:42:34pm

re: #73 Your ad could be here.

Your ad could be here

Just LOLing over here.

79 Talking Point Detective  Sun, Feb 19, 2012 9:43:35pm

An email to Heartland:

From: Gary Wamsley [mailto:editor@berthoudrecorder.com]
Sent: Friday, February 17, 2012 5:16 PM

To: Joseph Bast
Subject: Heartland Institute disinformation campaign

You should be ashamed of yourself. The United States already has a problem in keeping up with the rest of the world in science education and now you want to play a role in further destroying our nation as well as our planet.

You are a traitor to your own country. I did not spend 30 years in the military to protect the likes of you.

Gary Wamsley
Colonel, USAF, Retired

Return email from Hearland to the vet:

From: Joseph Bast
Date: Sat, 18 Feb 2012 09:46:00 -0600

To: Gary Wamsley 

Cc: Jim Lakely 

Subject: RE: Heartland Institute disinformation campaign

Mr. Wamsley,

I assume your intemperate comments are based on a forged memo that misrepresents our efforts in the area of global warming research education, so let me explain before demanding an apology.

[...]

Now that you know the truth, I ask that you apologize for your intemperate and very offensive letter. Since your letter is threatening, I’ve forwarded it to our legal counsel, forensics team, and the FBI. It is important that you not delete the email from your sent file, or any other emails you may have exchanged with other people while preparing it, since this could be evidence in criminal and civil cases.

Please write back to let me know if you will comply with my requests.

Best regards,

Response from emailer:

From: Gary Wamsley [mailto:editor@berthoudrecorder.com] 
Sent: Saturday, February 18, 2012 10:46 AM
To: Joseph Bast
Subject: Re: Heartland Institute disinformation campaign

Dear Mr. Bast,

Your threatening letter only serves to reinforce my opinion that the documents are in fact all true. Your ludicrous claim that my letter is threatening is a bullying tactic to which I will not succumb. No apology is offered. I do keep my emails for six months before deleting them.

Gary Wamsley
Colonel, USAF Retired

So, Heartland responds to a non-threat with a threat. Imagine my surprise.

[Link: www.berthoudrecorder.com...]

80 Kronocide  Sun, Feb 19, 2012 9:43:48pm

re: #75 jaunte

Did I read that right? $421 Million?

81 Prideful, Arrogant Marriage Equality Advocate  Sun, Feb 19, 2012 9:44:41pm

This might sound very ignorant but if an organization is tax excempt can they donate money to political organizations?

82 CuriousLurker  Sun, Feb 19, 2012 9:44:44pm

re: #61 Decatur Deb

Brookings Institute seems anomalous. Was that a camouflage grant, or an effort to subvert?

Good question. I don't know squat about most of these orgs. I've just been noting & cross-referencing names for a little over a year without really trying to understand much. This weekend I began trying to sort through things and get them into a proper database that can be easily searched for reference. I suppose I'll learn a LOT as I go along. Maybe more than I want to.

83 jaunte  Sun, Feb 19, 2012 9:45:50pm

re: #80 Kronocide

The blogger that I'm reading that from makes the point that it's more than double the size of the Red Cross in 2009.

84 CuriousLurker  Sun, Feb 19, 2012 9:46:23pm

re: #74 Charles Johnson

OK, how about: Right Wing Front Groups: Connecting the Dots.

Great, thanks.

85 jaunte  Sun, Feb 19, 2012 9:47:15pm
86 Decatur Deb  Sun, Feb 19, 2012 9:47:38pm

re: #82 CuriousLurker

Good question. I don't know squat about most of these orgs. I've just been noting & cross-referencing names for a little over a year without really trying to understand much. This weekend I began trying to sort through things and get them into a proper database that can be easily searched for reference. I suppose I'll learn a LOT as I go along. Maybe more than I want to.

Good luck mapping the Matrix. The orgs I recognized on your list were all RW shills or astroturf. Brookings stood out--it has a respected history of almost 100 yrs.

87 CuriousLurker  Sun, Feb 19, 2012 9:49:30pm

re: #75 jaunte

Throw Foster Friess and the National Christian Foundation in there too.
(7 lifetime board members, a confusing jumble of 40+ interlinked organizations including the National Christian Charitable Foundation, Inc., which gave away $421,155,901 to conservative causes in 2009).

Oy. Yeah, he's the latest one on my list (along with Adelson). There are so many. So much money. And I haven't even gotten to the ones with really deep pockets yet. It's all spread around, or so it seems. *sigh*

Citizens United has to be the worst decision SCOTUS ever made.

88 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Feb 19, 2012 9:49:41pm

re: #79 Talking Point Detective

Yeah, Bast snapped.

89 shutdown  Sun, Feb 19, 2012 9:49:43pm

re: #85 jaunte

That's a great link.

90 Interesting Times  Sun, Feb 19, 2012 9:49:51pm

re: #84 CuriousLurker

If you have time, a SFW variation on tentacle porn* with the names/logos of these right-wing front groups photoshopped upon it might make a memorable visual.

*Can't help it; that's what it makes me think of. With all of America being violated.

91 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sun, Feb 19, 2012 9:50:00pm

re: #85 jaunte

That is a lot of beans. Damn.

92 makeitstop  Sun, Feb 19, 2012 9:50:10pm

re: #7 Obdicut

If they sue you, you get pre-trial discovery. So they won't sue you.

Discovery is incredibly broad. It would, for example, reveal the name of their anonymous donor.

Exactly. This is pretty much a threat of a SLAPP suit.

I was on the receiving end of a SLAPP threat from Michael Savage a few years ago. The attorneys that handled it for me sent Savage's lawyer a list of questions they'd pursue in discovery, and they backed off and fast.

93 CuriousLurker  Sun, Feb 19, 2012 9:50:42pm

re: #86 Decatur Deb

Good luck mapping the Matrix. The orgs I recognized on your list were all RW shills or astroturf. Brookings stood out--it has a respected history of almost 100 yrs.

Well, some of them do also donate to respectable institutions & noble causes. That's part of what makes it so confusing for me as a relative neophyte to all this political stuff.

94 engineer cat  Sun, Feb 19, 2012 9:50:44pm

re: #67 Slumbering Behemoth

Why don't they just call themselves "The Original Founding Fathers" and be done with it? It's not like their target market, the average wingnut, knows two fucks about what "classical liberalism" is.

'liberal' has got to be about the most amorphous term in the political lexicon

95 Petero1818  Sun, Feb 19, 2012 9:51:26pm

re: #79 Talking Point Detective

An email to Heartland:

Return email from Hearland to the vet:

Response from emailer:

So, Heartland responds to a non-threat with a threat. Imagine my surprise.

[Link: www.berthoudrecorder.com...]

Just curious about two things. Why does Heartland apparently have a forensics team? and second, why would forensic be required, when you have signed the email including your former status in the military.

96 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sun, Feb 19, 2012 9:51:54pm

re: #94 engineer cat

'liberal' has got to be about the most amorphous term in the political lexicon

So is 'conservative', it would seem. :sigh: The labels get to be meaningless after a time.

97 Interesting Times  Sun, Feb 19, 2012 9:52:13pm

re: #88 Your ad could be here.

Yeah, Bast snapped.

Derp, I didn't even make the connection. He must be the husband (or perhaps related in some other way) to the teacher-hating Diane Bast who flamed Mich-again.

98 Decatur Deb  Sun, Feb 19, 2012 9:52:31pm

re: #93 CuriousLurker

Well, some of them do also donate to respectable institutions & noble causes. That's part of what makes it so confusing for me as a relative neophyte to all this political stuff.

Yes--that's what I meant by camouflage: "We give to Save the Puppies, how dare you criticize our arms sales?"

99 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Feb 19, 2012 9:53:44pm

re: #97 Interesting Times

Derp, I didn't even make the connection. He must be the husband (or perhaps related in some other way) to the teacher-hating Diane Bast who flamed Mich-again.

He is HI president, as well as the author of the leaked documents (except the probably-fake one).

100 Hal_10000  Sun, Feb 19, 2012 9:54:50pm

Heartland is digging themselves deeper but you skipped over an important point: Heartland's twerpishness aside, there are a lot of commentators who agree that the memo they reference is, in fact, a fake mixed in with the real documents. The date is different, large sections are cut and pasted from other documents, the PDF has different meta-information, etc. But this has been treated with a thousandth of the (justifiable) skepticism applied to the Climategate e-mails or the Wiener pictures. And it's by far the most damning part of the leak.

101 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sun, Feb 19, 2012 9:55:15pm

re: #98 Decatur Deb

Yes--that's what I meant by camouflage: "We give to Save the Puppies, how dare you criticize our arms sales?"

Quick question...

102 CuriousLurker  Sun, Feb 19, 2012 9:56:09pm

re: #81 The fascist squeaky wheels get the grease

This might sound very ignorant but if an organization is tax excempt can they donate money to political organizations?

501(c)(3) orgs have pretty strict prohibitions, but not all are the same.

Going to go make my page now and then mentally prepare for Monday (ugh).

Later, Lizards.

103 Talking Point Detective  Sun, Feb 19, 2012 9:57:05pm

re: #95 Petero1818

Just curious about two things. Why does Heartland apparently have a forensics team? and second, why would forensic be required, when you have signed the email including your former status in the military.

Why didn't they mention the evidence that they had to prove that the document was a "fake?"

Two great follow-on emails:

From: Gary Wamsley [mailto:editor@berthoudrecorder.com] 
Sent: Saturday, February 18, 2012 01:01 PM
To: Joseph Bast
Subject: Re: Heartland Institute disinformation campaign

You’re welcome.

In my opinion you have handled this whole situation quite poorly. Your original letter of Feb. 15 was almost surreal in its content and did not inspire confidence in its truthfulness, especially when compared to your actions in publishing out of context emails in what became known as ClimateGate. Did you wait to try to get verification from the scientists in East Anglica?

Your response to me would been better served by referencing articles like Megan Mcardle’s well written piece in the Atlantic or Anthony Watts in WUWT, both of which conclude that the board memo is a probably a fake.

Perhaps you responded as you did because my email angered you. I will admit that had I not been so angry when I wrote, that I might have been a bit more restrained. Please do not take this as an apology.

Gary Wamsley
Colonel, USAF Retired

and

Dear Mr. Bast, et. al.

It occurred to me that you will need my address in case you wished to pursue legal action against me.

My home address is:

Col Gary Wamsley
1501 So. County Road 23E
Berthoud, CO 80513

Just to make sure my emails are readily available to you, I am posting them on my web site. You will find them at this link

Heartland Institute threatens 71-year-old veteran

Sincerely,

Gary Wamsley
Recorder Online
editor@berthoudrecorder.com
publisher@berthoudrecorder.com
Www.berthoudrecorder.com
Phone:[no phone numbers allowed]

104 jaunte  Sun, Feb 19, 2012 9:59:21pm

re: #81 The fascist squeaky wheels get the grease

This might sound very ignorant but if an organization is tax excempt can they donate money to political organizations?

Here's a giant loophole:

Direct lobbying refers to attempts to influence a legislative body through communication with a member or employee of a legislative body, or with a government official who participates in formulating legislation. Grass roots lobbying refers to attempts to influence legislation by attempting to affect the opinion of the public with respect to the legislation and encouraging the audience to take action with respect to the legislation. In either case, the communications must refer to and reflect a view on the legislation.

[Link: www.irs.gov...]

105 MittDoesNotCompute  Sun, Feb 19, 2012 9:59:58pm

re: #21 Lidane

I'd say what she is, but I try not to use that word.

Does it start with "b" and end with "itch"?

///

106 Talking Point Detective  Sun, Feb 19, 2012 10:00:53pm

re: #100 Hal_10000

Heartland's twerpishness aside, there are a lot of commentators who agree that the memo they reference is, in fact, a fake mixed in with the real documents. The date is different, large sections are cut and pasted from other documents, the PDF has different meta-information, etc.

Just to clarify, there is pretty strong evidence that it's fake, but it's circumstantial. From what I've read, if the one document is "fake," Heartland could prove it conclusively, but haven't done so - at least yet.

107 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Feb 19, 2012 10:03:10pm

re: #100 Hal_10000

Heartland is digging themselves deeper but you skipped over an important point: Heartland's twerpishness aside, there are a lot of commentators who agree that the memo they reference is, in fact, a fake mixed in with the real documents. The date is different, large sections are cut and pasted from other documents, the PDF has different meta-information, etc. But this has been treated with a thousandth of the (justifiable) skepticism applied to the Climategate e-mails or the Wiener pictures. And it's by far the most damning part of the leak.

Different meta information is in no way indicative of fakery in itself. Only the substance of this information may raise suspicion, like e.g. the time zone.

108 MittDoesNotCompute  Sun, Feb 19, 2012 10:03:11pm

re: #92 makeitstop

Exactly. This is pretty much a threat of a SLAPP suit.

I was on the receiving end of a SLAPP threat from Michael Savage a few years ago. The attorneys that handled it for me sent Savage's lawyer a list of questions they'd pursue in discovery, and they backed off and fast.

O RLY? Do tell, if you can...

109 Interesting Times  Sun, Feb 19, 2012 10:03:25pm

re: #106 Talking Point Detective

I don't think the "is it fake or isn't it" discussion should even be pursued, as it buys into Heartland's framing and their allies' concern-trolling (e.g. the Megan McArdle piece).

In my opinion, things like this are far more damning anyway. Also knowing who their donors are so they can be targeted with petitions, bad publicity, etc.

110 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sun, Feb 19, 2012 10:07:30pm

re: #105 talon_262

Nah. Dana's not quite that nice.

BTW, Q: What starts with a "p" and ends with "orn"?


A: uɹoɔdod

111 Decatur Deb  Sun, Feb 19, 2012 10:09:16pm

Wiki sheds light on their attitude towards teachers:

"...Education

The Heartland Institute supports the availability of charter schools, providing education tax credits to attend private schools, expanding federal vouchers for low-income students to attend a public or private school of their family's choosing, and the Parent Trigger reform that started in California. The Heartland Institute argues that market reforms should be introduced into the public education system to increase competition and provide more options and greater choice for parents and their children.[23]"

112 engineer cat  Sun, Feb 19, 2012 10:12:36pm

re: #110 Slumbering Behemoth

Nah. Dana's not quite that nice.

BTW, Q: What starts with a "p" and ends with "orn"?

A: uɹoɔdod

what starts with 'f' and ends with 'uck?

and is painted red and makes a rilly rilly loud noise?

113 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sun, Feb 19, 2012 10:15:35pm

re: #112 engineer cat

Flaming Duck?
:P

114 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Feb 19, 2012 10:17:37pm

re: #111 Decatur Deb

Wiki sheds light on their attitude towards teachers:

"...Education

The Heartland Institute supports the availability of charter schools, providing education tax credits to attend private schools, expanding federal vouchers for low-income students to attend a public or private school of their family's choosing, and the Parent Trigger reform that started in California. The Heartland Institute argues that market reforms should be introduced into the public education system to increase competition and provide more options and greater choice for parents and their children.[23]"

Nothing wrong with any of that. Reward the productive, retrain those who need help but are competent, and fire the deadwood. Doing that is key to improving an organization. It's rough on the deadwood, but it works well.

115 Talking Point Detective  Sun, Feb 19, 2012 10:19:33pm

re: #109 Interesting Times

I don't think the "is it fake or isn't it" discussion should even be pursued, as it buys into Heartland's framing and their allies' concern-trolling (e.g. the Megan McArdle piece).

In my opinion, things like this are far more damning anyway. Also knowing who their donors are so they can be targeted with petitions, bad publicity, etc.

The discussion is going to be pursued regardless. "Skeptical" blogs are as pleased as punch, talking over and over about an "own goal." In the end, outside of climate change fanatics, I don't think that this will turn out to have much impact one way or the other. Accusations about one climate scientist are making the rounds. If they were proven, it would obviously have career impact.

My guess is that barring that - this event will be little more than a blip, either way, on the climate change radar. Anyone who didn't already know that Heartland is using climate change to fight a political battle either wasn't paying attention or is in...well...denial.

116 Decatur Deb  Sun, Feb 19, 2012 10:19:58pm

re: #114 Dark_Falcon

Nothing wrong with any of that. Reward the productive, retrain those who need help but are competent, and fire the deadwood. Doing that is key to improving an organization. It's rough on the deadwood, but it works well.

Bust the union crap from ages past.

117 engineer cat  Sun, Feb 19, 2012 10:26:19pm

what's green, hangs on a wall, and whistles?

118 makeitstop  Sun, Feb 19, 2012 10:27:36pm

re: #108 talon_262

O RLY? Do tell, if you can...

Not much to tell. I was co-founder of a web site that encouraged an advertiser boycott of Savage's short-lived TV show on MSNBC. When Culligan pulled their advertising from the show, Savage filed suit against my site and two others, claiming damages of 3 million bucks.

Once the lawyers informed them that we'd be asking for information relating to all of Savage's media companies in discovery, the lawsuit quietly went away.

119 SpaceJesus  Sun, Feb 19, 2012 10:31:37pm

None of that shit is illegal at all

120 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sun, Feb 19, 2012 10:32:35pm

re: #117 engineer cat

Kermit the Flogged?

121 engineer cat  Sun, Feb 19, 2012 10:34:52pm

re: #120 Slumbering Behemoth

Kermit the Flogged?

heh

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

122 Locker  Sun, Feb 19, 2012 10:35:17pm

How does someone fraudulently obtain fake documents? You had fake documents laying around that someone snatched?

This person seems to have a below average intelligence. GUILTY! GUILTY! GUILTY!

123 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sun, Feb 19, 2012 10:40:21pm

re: #122 Locker

Fake but accurate?
/does it throb?

124 Decatur Deb  Sun, Feb 19, 2012 10:42:24pm

re: #114 Dark_Falcon

Nothing wrong with any of that. Reward the productive, retrain those who need help but are competent, and fire the deadwood. Doing that is key to improving an organization. It's rough on the deadwood, but it works well.

The "Parent Trigger" supported by Heartland:

[Link: www.time.com...]

125 ProGunLiberal  Sun, Feb 19, 2012 10:46:44pm

re: #124 Decatur Deb

Let it go, he just cares about Union Busting, which in this case is particularly bad, as the Teacher's Unions protect the Teachers from parents when teaching about things like Evolution and History, where Parents may get bashy.

In summary, DF is supporting the teaching of creationism by proxy.

126 Gus  Sun, Feb 19, 2012 10:47:18pm

No mo' buwets!

Night folks.

127 srjh  Sun, Feb 19, 2012 10:47:29pm

Not too familiar with the Streisand Effect at Heartland, are they?

As a right wing attack machine, they're not used to damage control themselves.

128 Locker  Sun, Feb 19, 2012 10:49:03pm

This false fantasy that the education system is overrun with bad teachers who are doing everything from stealing public funds to corrupting the youth is about as accurate as the rampant voter fraud problems the GOP is always going on about.

Additionally it's quite easy to fire a teacher if you follow the proper procedure and aren't just pissed because they wouldn't let Johnny read his bible verse during science class.

129 Decatur Deb  Sun, Feb 19, 2012 10:52:09pm

re: #128 Locker

This false fantasy that the education system is overrun with bad teachers who are doing everything from stealing public funds to corrupting the youth is about as accurate as the rampant voter fraud problems the GOP is always going on about.

Additionally it's quite easy to fire a teacher if you follow the proper procedure and aren't just pissed because they wouldn't let Johnny read his bible verse during science class.

Firing teachers is hardly necessary. They last about 5 years in our state because the job is thankless and the long-term pay is not worth it.

131 BongCrodny  Sun, Feb 19, 2012 10:55:17pm

re: #124 Decatur Deb

The "Parent Trigger" supported by Heartland:

[Link: www.time.com...]

Interesting comments for that article.

I liked the one that said you could basically start a school on 20 students at $8,800 per student.

$176K might *seem* like a lot of money, but I would suspect that after books, other educational materials, supplies, rent, insurance and whatever else I may have forgotten, it doesn't sound like there's a whole lot of money left to get the kind of teachers you'd theoretically want.

132 Decatur Deb  Sun, Feb 19, 2012 10:57:50pm

re: #131 BongCrodny

Interesting comments for that article.

I liked the one that said you could basically start a school on 20 students at $8,800 per student.

$176K might *seem* like a lot of money, but I would suspect that after books, other educational materials, supplies, rent, insurance and whatever else I may have forgotten, it doesn't sound like there's a whole lot of money left to get the kind of teachers you'd theoretically want.

You can't field a decent Alabama HS football team for 176K, and then there's all that classroom crap.

133 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sun, Feb 19, 2012 10:58:52pm

re: #131 BongCrodny

I liked the one that said you could basically start a school on 20 students at $8,800 per student.

$176K might *seem* like a lot of money...

That's the "You Just Got Your Dumb Ass Robbed Magnate School".

Now, if you send me $1,000, I'll teach you how to make an F-22 Raptor for under fifty bucks.

134 The Yankee  Sun, Feb 19, 2012 11:01:47pm

What do you guys think about giving kids that get good grades sums of money, in the area of hundreds of dollars?
My sister is a teacher she has giving me the impression that the kids don't have any faith in the school system. And occasionally she gets a kid that is good at school despite their parents. Lastly most of the kids will follow the worst kid in class because he is the most interesting. I would think that paying kids for good grades could resolve some of this.

135 Decatur Deb  Sun, Feb 19, 2012 11:03:57pm

re: #134 The Yankee

What do you guys think about giving kids that get good grades sums of money, in the area of hundreds of dollars?
My sister is a teacher she has giving me the impression that the kids don't have any faith in the school system. And occasionally she gets a kid that is good at school despite their parents. Lastly most of the kids will follow the worst kid in class because he is the most interesting. I would think that paying kids for good grades could resolve some of this.

Worth experimenting, but I can't speak to it. Our nuns worked the other end of the incentive spectrum.

136 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Sun, Feb 19, 2012 11:05:05pm

Just noticed this re: CuriousLurker's rogues gallery -

Project for the New American Century

... is a favorite among 9/11 Troofers for having published a document seen by some (not just troofers) as wistfully yearning for some sort of "New Pearl Harbor" that would (essentially) whip up war fervor and get the military-industrial complex going full tilt, just like the good old days.

These related links go to a troofer site:

[Link: 911review.com...]

[Link: 911review.com...]

137 engineer cat  Sun, Feb 19, 2012 11:06:08pm

re: #134 The Yankee

What do you guys think about giving kids that get good grades sums of money, in the area of hundreds of dollars?
My sister is a teacher she has giving me the impression that the kids don't have any faith in the school system. And occasionally she gets a kid that is good at school despite their parents. Lastly most of the kids will follow the worst kid in class because he is the most interesting. I would think that paying kids for good grades could resolve some of this.

i think kids should be required to work in restaurants for two years after high school while they pay their own rent & etc

then they could go to kollige with their minds wonderfully focussed

as an extra added bonus, six months on a wait staff will teach you more about managing people than a whole mba

138 Locker  Sun, Feb 19, 2012 11:06:15pm

Can you really teach whatever you want at a charter school? I'd love to start one that teaches the really important skills from an early age:

1. Critical thinking
2. Communication
2. Conflict resolution
3. Personal psychology
4. Money and economics
5. Local, National and Global culture, history and current events
6. Math and Science
7. Arts and Athletics
8. Self defense

Hmm that's a nice start but it's hard not to keep adding to the list...

139 BongCrodny  Sun, Feb 19, 2012 11:06:49pm

re: #134 The Yankee

What do you guys think about giving kids that get good grades sums of money, in the area of hundreds of dollars?
My sister is a teacher she has giving me the impression that the kids don't have any faith in the school system. And occasionally she gets a kid that is good at school despite their parents. Lastly most of the kids will follow the worst kid in class because he is the most interesting. I would think that paying kids for good grades could resolve some of this.

We have scholarships for college; I don't think there would be anything too radical about proposing the same sort of thing for high school.

140 freetoken  Sun, Feb 19, 2012 11:07:51pm

re: #138 Locker

Can you really teach whatever you want at a charter school? I'd love to start one that teaches the really important skills from an early age:....

You left off 9. Janitorial Skills .

I'm sure it was just an oversight on your part.

141 Decatur Deb  Sun, Feb 19, 2012 11:08:19pm

re: #137 engineer cat

i think kids should be required to work in restaurants for two years after high school while they pay their own rent & etc

then they could go to kollige with their minds wonderfully focussed

as an extra added bonus, six months on a wait staff will teach you more about managing people than a whole mba

Have you read Bellamy's utopian "Looking Backward"? It was very influential at the turn of the last century. Everybody had to wait tables for a while.

142 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sun, Feb 19, 2012 11:08:20pm

re: #134 The Yankee

I dunno. How about starting a $xx,xxx "Do what ever the fuck you want with it when you graduate" fund, then take away $xxx from it for every poor grade?

143 CuriousLurker  Sun, Feb 19, 2012 11:09:44pm

Okay, the page is done: Right Wing Front Groups: Connecting the Dots

My brain is toast now, so I'm gonna go hit the sack. G'nite, everyone.

144 The Yankee  Sun, Feb 19, 2012 11:09:56pm

re: #135 Decatur Deb

Worth experimenting, but I can't speak to it. Our nuns worked the other end of the incentive spectrum.

Even B.F Skinner said that negative reinforcement is not the best way to get results from someone. There was even an experiment proving it. Too bad you were not into Behavioral Therapy back then you could of taught the nuns something. The nuns seem to believe more so in the Three Stooges philosophy.

145 Decatur Deb  Sun, Feb 19, 2012 11:10:54pm

re: #144 The Yankee

Even B.F Skinner said that negative reinforcement is not the best way to get results from someone. There was even an experiment proving it. Too bad you were not into Behavioral Therapy back then you could of taught the nuns something. The nuns seem to believe more so in the Three Stooges philosophy.

Tried teaching a nun something. Once.

146 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sun, Feb 19, 2012 11:11:17pm

re: #143 CuriousLurker

Unghh! Toaaast!
/zombie

147 Decatur Deb  Sun, Feb 19, 2012 11:11:44pm

re: #143 CuriousLurker

Okay, the page is done: Right Wing Front Groups: Connecting the Dots

My brain is toast now, so I'm gonna go hit the sack. G'nite, everyone.

Not even going to look, as tired as I am. Will check it tomorrow.

148 srjh  Sun, Feb 19, 2012 11:12:41pm

How on earth can they claim the documents were obtained fraudulently if they don't even know if they're authentic?

Or maybe they are both fake and stolen. Fits in with the doublethink on "climategate" and this fiasco.

149 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Sun, Feb 19, 2012 11:13:28pm

re: #138 Locker

Can you really teach whatever you want at a charter school? I'd love to start one that teaches the really important skills from an early age:

1. Critical thinking
2. Communication
2. Conflict resolution
3. Personal psychology
4. Money and economics
5. Local, National and Global culture, history and current events
6. Math and Science
7. Arts and Athletics
8. Self defense

Hmm that's a nice start but it's hard not to keep adding to the list...

Comical thinking
Mockery Science
Sarcastrophysics
Comparative Cynisacreligion
Sardonicology
Post-Fascetiouism
Ridiculography

150 BongCrodny  Sun, Feb 19, 2012 11:13:43pm

re: #138 Locker

Can you really teach whatever you want at a charter school? I'd love to start one that teaches the really important skills from an early age:

1. Critical thinking
2. Communication
2. Conflict resolution
3. Personal psychology
4. Money and economics
5. Local, National and Global culture, history and current events
6. Math and Science
7. Arts and Athletics
8. Self defense

Hmm that's a nice start but it's hard not to keep adding to the list...

No, no. It's:

1. Obedience
2. Don't talk back
3. Know your place
4. What are you, stupid or something?
5. Atlas Shrugged
6. Creationism
7. The Second Amendment: The Only One That Matters
8. Keep it in your pants.

151 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sun, Feb 19, 2012 11:14:24pm

re: #144 The Yankee

They're already working from a fire and brimstone based economy before getting into education. Expecting them to teach from a perspective of positive reinforcement is like asking someone who was born blind to tell you what their favorite color is.

152 Decatur Deb  Sun, Feb 19, 2012 11:16:04pm

re: #150 BongCrodny

No, no. It's:

1. Obedience
2. Don't talk back
3. Know your place
4. What are you, stupid or something?
5. Atlas Shrugged
6. Creationism
7. The Second Amendment: The Only One That Matters
8. Keep it in your pants.

Told my teacher/daughter I would teach Bullshit Detection for free, the final exam to be detection of my bullshit. She didn't get back to me on it.

153 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sun, Feb 19, 2012 11:16:32pm

re: #149 Bishop Cornwallis Gobbletot

What? No "Dick Jokes 101"? I am disappoint.

154 The Yankee  Sun, Feb 19, 2012 11:16:51pm

re: #137 engineer cat

i think kids should be required to work in restaurants for two years after high school while they pay their own rent & etc

then they could go to kollige with their minds wonderfully focussed

as an extra added bonus, six months on a wait staff will teach you more about managing people than a whole mba

I thought that kids should have to do volunteer work for a year or 2 after graduating to pay for the public schooling kind of like what they do in Israel with kids going into the military. But that would be such a target for abuse especially if someone like Newt gets any power.

I want kids to help remodel a house in a really bad neighborhood, or help science with research in a lab. Not take a janitorial job from someone. Or have volunteer work for a political candidate count.

155 BongCrodny  Sun, Feb 19, 2012 11:17:02pm

re: #144 The Yankee

The nuns seem to believe more so in the Three Stooges philosophy.

Without the laughs, of course.

156 Decatur Deb  Sun, Feb 19, 2012 11:17:42pm

re: #151 Slumbering Behemoth

They're already working from a fire and brimstone based economy before getting into education. Expecting them to teach from a perspective of positive reinforcement is like asking someone who was born blind to tell you what their favorite color is.

I had nuns 24/7 for many years. It's fun to joke, but as a group they were the best people I have known. Sucked at cosmology, though.

157 Decatur Deb  Sun, Feb 19, 2012 11:19:22pm

re: #154 The Yankee

I thought that kids should have to do volunteer work for a year or 2 after graduating to pay for the public schooling kind of like what they do in Israel with kids going into the military. But that would be such a target for abuse especially if someone like Newt gets any power.

I want kids to help remodel a house in a really bad neighborhood, or help science with research in a lab. Not take a janitorial job from someone. Or have volunteer work for a political candidate count.

Habitat for Humanity has a HS Youth Build program. They raise money for a couple years, then build with it.

158 engineer cat  Sun, Feb 19, 2012 11:20:07pm

re: #141 Decatur Deb

Have you read Bellamy's utopian "Looking Backward"? It was very influential at the turn of the last century. Everybody had to wait tables for a while.

huh

i've read about the book quite a bit in histories of the era, but i've never actually read it

159 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sun, Feb 19, 2012 11:20:16pm

re: #156 Decatur Deb

There was a Catholic Girl's School not far from where I went to Junior High. Had I known then what I know now, I would have walked on the wrong side of the street on my way home.

160 Decatur Deb  Sun, Feb 19, 2012 11:21:40pm

re: #159 Slumbering Behemoth

There was a Catholic Girl's School not far from where I went to Junior High. Had I known then what I know now, I would have walked on the wrong side of the street on my way home.

There are disputes about their virtue, but I bet they had 100% literacy.

161 BongCrodny  Sun, Feb 19, 2012 11:21:48pm

re: #156 Decatur Deb

I had nuns 24/7 for many years. It's fun to joke, but as a group they were the best people I have known. Sucked at cosmology, though.

Back when I was just a young Bong, I skipped the first grade because people thought I was, I dunno, smart or something.

I was also born on the cusp of the deadline to start class, so while I was a year younger than most of my classmates, in some instances I was nearly two years younger than a few.

Socially, I was incredibly awkward and immature.

Got locked in a closet by a nun for two hours when I was in the third grade.

Never forgot it.

162 Decatur Deb  Sun, Feb 19, 2012 11:22:43pm

re: #161 BongCrodny

Back when I was just a young Bong, I skipped the first grade because people thought I was, I dunno, smart or something.

I was also born on the cusp of the deadline to start class, so while I was a year younger than most of my classmates, in some instances I was nearly two years younger than a few.

Socially, I was incredibly awkward and immature.

Got locked in a closet by a nun for two hours when I was in the third grade.

Never forgot it.

That would color your appreciation.

163 The Yankee  Sun, Feb 19, 2012 11:25:02pm

re: #157 Decatur Deb

Habitat for Humanity has a HS Youth Build program. They raise money for a couple years, then build with it.

I am still trying to figure out if Carter is a good guy or not. He is defiantly an under rated president, in some respects.

164 engineer cat  Sun, Feb 19, 2012 11:25:14pm

i went to a school run by episcopalian nuns

they all had graduate degrees and were '20th century people', as they liked to put it

pious but no kookoo business

165 BongCrodny  Sun, Feb 19, 2012 11:26:49pm

re: #162 Decatur Deb

That would color your appreciation.

Yep. Funny thing is, while I remember the punishment, I've long since forgotten what the crime was. I don't recall anybody else getting locked in a closet, but it was nearly 50 years ago.

I'd like to think it wasn't a standard punishment, though.

166 The Yankee  Sun, Feb 19, 2012 11:27:14pm

re: #161 BongCrodny

Back when I was just a young Bong, I skipped the first grade because people thought I was, I dunno, smart or something.

I was also born on the cusp of the deadline to start class, so while I was a year younger than most of my classmates, in some instances I was nearly two years younger than a few.

Socially, I was incredibly awkward and immature.

Got locked in a closet by a nun for two hours when I was in the third grade.

Never forgot it.

Do any schools allow, spankings or touching the student in any way any more?

167 Decatur Deb  Sun, Feb 19, 2012 11:28:21pm

re: #163 The Yankee

I am still trying to figure out if Carter is a good guy or not. He is defiantly an under rated president, in some respects.

He's a good carpenter, his houses stand. (People often think he founded Habitat, when he is just their most influential follower. This guy founded it:)

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

168 BongCrodny  Sun, Feb 19, 2012 11:29:52pm

re: #166 The Yankee

Do any schools allow, spankings or touching the student in any way any more?

I'd suspect not, but I really have no idea.

It just sounds like something that was from a bygone era.

169 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sun, Feb 19, 2012 11:30:23pm

re: #163 The Yankee

I am still trying to figure out if Carter is a good guy or not. He is defiantly an under rated president, in some respects.

He's a stupid douche, but a stupid douche with a good cause under his belt. H4H does good work, and I was fooking impressed when I recently checked out their local offshoot, ReStore.

170 The Yankee  Sun, Feb 19, 2012 11:31:29pm

re: #165 BongCrodny

You were probably picking your nose. Or something, it might not been as bad as what you remember. Cause things are never as good as one remembers the reverse has to be true.
For instance I just recently watched one of my fave movies growing up, Heavy Metal......terrible.

171 Decatur Deb  Sun, Feb 19, 2012 11:31:57pm

re: #166 The Yankee

Do any schools allow, spankings or touching the student in any way any more?

The Sovr'n State of Alabama votes "YES". My daughter wears a can of mace and a panic alarm, but she teaches an 'unusual' school.

172 BongCrodny  Sun, Feb 19, 2012 11:32:01pm

re: #163 The Yankee

I am still trying to figure out if Carter is a good guy or not. He is defiantly an under rated president, in some respects.

Ha! I was here one morning when some of our more right-leaning Lizards were gathered around the coffeepot.

There was no love for Carter there, to say the least.

173 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sun, Feb 19, 2012 11:32:07pm

re: #167 Decatur Deb

Yet another thing I did not know. Thanks for the link.

174 BongCrodny  Sun, Feb 19, 2012 11:34:38pm

re: #171 Decatur Deb

The Sovr'n State of Alabama votes "YES". My daughter wears a can of mace and a panic alarm, but she teaches an 'unusual' school.

Is that under normal or exceptional circumstances?

Back in the day, I remember a lot of kids getting their knuckles rapped by the nuns, but I don't think corporal punishment went too much further than that.

175 Decatur Deb  Sun, Feb 19, 2012 11:36:03pm

re: #173 Slumbering Behemoth

Yet another thing I did not know. Thanks for the link.

I've visited Koininia farms, where he got his ideas. Proper Protestant kibbutz, it is.

176 The Yankee  Sun, Feb 19, 2012 11:36:21pm

re: #172 BongCrodny

Ha! I was here one morning when some of our more right-leaning Lizards were gathered around the coffeepot.

There was no love for Carter there, to say the least.

I heard he is more responsible for some of the biggest reductions in regulations then Regan was. Also he came close to giving us "National Health Care System" what ever that is. If not for a Kennedy that really wanted to get elected.

re: #171 Decatur Deb

The Sovr'n State of Alabama votes "YES". My daughter wears a can of mace and a panic alarm, but she teaches an 'unusual' school.

No teachers Union down there right?

177 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sun, Feb 19, 2012 11:36:34pm

re: #170 The Yankee

For instance I just recently watched one of my fave movies growing up, Heavy Metal...terrible.

LIES!!!

Similarly, some time ago I found some issues of MAD magazine that I had collected in the early '80s. I stuck them in the bathroom for light reading.

When I actually started reading one, I asked myself "Why did I ever think this crap was funny"?

/80's Gary Larson still rocks, though.

178 Decatur Deb  Sun, Feb 19, 2012 11:37:35pm

re: #174 BongCrodny

Is that under normal or exceptional circumstances?

Back in the day, I remember a lot of kids getting their knuckles rapped by the nuns, but I don't think corporal punishment went too much further than that.

Alabama is not using it much, not around here at least. They keep it on the books though. I don't have stats.

179 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sun, Feb 19, 2012 11:39:35pm

re: #166 The Yankee

Do any schools allow, spankings or touching the student in any way any more?

When I was in 4th grade (1981), our teacher would spank us with a yard stick (public school).

Never very hard. It was more about humiliation in front of your classmates than it was about pain.

180 Decatur Deb  Sun, Feb 19, 2012 11:39:46pm

re: #176 The Yankee

I heard he is more responsible for some of the biggest reductions in regulations then Regan was. Also he came close to giving us "National Health Care System" what ever that is. If not for a Kennedy that really wanted to get elected.

re: #171 Decatur Deb

No teachers Union down there right?

Alabama Education Association, quite powerful in its way. Of course it makes the mistake of presenting itself as both a union and a professional advocate for education, thus muddling its roles.

181 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sun, Feb 19, 2012 11:41:45pm

re: #179 Slumbering Behemoth

Addendum: He died of a heart attack when I was in High School.

182 The Yankee  Sun, Feb 19, 2012 11:42:06pm

re: #179 Slumbering Behemoth

When I was in 4th grade (1981), our teacher would spank us with a yard stick (public school).

Never very hard. It was more about humiliation in front of your classmates than it was about pain.

Life is funny I pay extra for spankings now//

183 engineer cat  Sun, Feb 19, 2012 11:42:45pm

watching 'Roberta', 1935, on tcm, astaire, rogers, irene dunne

i always enjoy how even the people have an art deco look about them in those 30s movies i love so much

it was the hot jazz that first attracted me to them, tho...

184 Decatur Deb  Sun, Feb 19, 2012 11:44:15pm

Off to bed for the second time. 'Nite, all.

185 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sun, Feb 19, 2012 11:49:52pm

re: #182 The Yankee

Life is funny I pay extra for spankings now//

Yeah, but you usually request to be spanked with rather awkward and unwieldy items. That's why I charge extra.

186 engineer cat  Sun, Feb 19, 2012 11:53:24pm

irene dunne singing 'smoke gets in your eyes'

sniffle sniffle

187 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 12:58:43am
188 EdDantes  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 1:06:26am

I'm moving to Bakersfield, Ca. Anyone from Bakersfield?

189 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 1:10:24am

re: #188 EdDantes

You. Poor. Bastard.

/also, no.

190 EdDantes  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 1:12:23am

re: #189 Slumbering Behemoth

You. Poor. Bastard.

I feel better already! Thanks!

191 researchok  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 1:17:48am

Morning, all

192 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 1:19:01am

re: #190 EdDantes

I've only been once to see a concert. We drove through two hours of the most boring highway, and passed by a dairy farm that stank so bad it actually woke me up.

Are you at all familiar with California's Central Valley?

193 EdDantes  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 1:21:33am

re: #192 Slumbering Behemoth

I've only been once to see a concert. We drove through two hours of the most boring highway, and passed by a dairy farm that stank so bad it actually woke me up.

Are you at all familiar with California's Central Valley?

Been there a few times on the way somewhere else. When I was kid we'd get gas there to get us to Arizona.

194 researchok  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 1:22:22am

re: #192 Slumbering Behemoth

Are you at all familiar with California's Central Valley?

Have you been?

195 researchok  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 1:24:17am

re: #194 researchok

Or am I locationally challenged?

196 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 1:28:37am

re: #193 EdDantes

Are you familiar with parts of California that are not Central Valley?

re: #194 researchok

Also a couple/few hours drive from where I live. I've been twice. On the second trip, I learned that I saw all I needed to see on the first trip. And that's coming from a garlic addict.

197 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 1:31:12am

re: #195 researchok

Or am I locationally challenged?

A bit. Gilroy is way more coastal than it is valley, and a fair distance from Bakersfield.

198 researchok  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 1:33:33am

re: #197 Slumbering Behemoth

The garlic ice cream is what fascinates me.

And the Garlic Queen.

199 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 1:34:22am

re: #195 researchok

Google mapped.

200 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 1:35:44am

re: #198 researchok

I'm not one with a sweet tooth, but the vanilla almond garlic was kick ass.

201 EdDantes  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 1:37:20am

re: #194 researchok

When I worked in gas detection in the mid nineties, Gilroy used to set off the Arsine alarms. Actually, the cafe did the same thing when they served Italian food.

202 researchok  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 1:39:04am

re: #200 Slumbering Behemoth

re: #201 EdDantes

That's one trip I have to make.

When I go to CA, it's SF area or LA. I did visit Sacramento (I really like the place) once. What struck me was how different each part of the state really is.

203 EdDantes  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 1:41:54am

re: #202 researchok

California is so large it encompasses many climates and demographics. It should be three states.

204 freetoken  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 1:42:44am

re: #188 EdDantes

I'm moving to Bakersfield, Ca.

I'm sorry to hear that.

Anyone from Bakersfield?

Well, he is:

and so is he:

205 researchok  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 1:43:24am

re: #203 EdDantes

California is so large it encompasses many climates and demographics. It should be three states.

No kidding.

Even the China towns are different.

They say SF has the best Chinese food but I thought Sacramento topped them.

206 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 1:44:55am

re: #202 researchok

I got a garlic plate with a steak sandwich, calamari pasta, some other kind of side dish, and lots of garlic.

So many good eats there, but I just can't see the lure of going more than once unless you live nearby.

But if you've never been, you should at least go once.

207 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 1:46:13am

re: #203 EdDantes

California is so large it encompasses many climates and demographics. It should be three states.

Why are you relocating to Bakersfield? Just curious, you can decline to answer.

208 researchok  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 1:46:51am

Now I've got thoughts of dancing garlic cloves and music going on...

Life is good.

209 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 1:47:49am

re: #208 researchok

Life is better with garlic.

210 researchok  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 1:49:35am

I'm listening to FT's 'Ruby...now there's a blast from the past

211 EdDantes  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 1:55:57am

re: #207 Slumbering Behemoth

Why are you relocating to Bakersfield? Just curious, you can decline to answer.

No problem. My wife is transferring there and she makes more money than I do and has been with the same company for 13 years and has great benefits.

212 freetoken  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 1:58:40am

re: #203 EdDantes

California is so large it encompasses many climates and demographics. It should be three states.

Or more... there are at least 5 distinct areas.

And, when the end comes and civilization takes its last breath, here is one of the few places where Homo sapiens will be able to eek out an existence:

[Link: maps.google.com...]

213 EdDantes  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 2:06:30am

Besides Buck Owens Merle haggard was from Bakersfield.

214 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 2:07:00am

re: #211 EdDantes

No problem. My wife is transferring there and she makes more money than I do and has been with the same company for 13 years and has great benefits.

Prepare to be unexcited.

215 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 2:10:50am

re: #212 freetoken

Don't you go eyeballing my Costco. You'd be better off trying to storm the local gun store.

216 EdDantes  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 2:13:16am

re: #214 Slumbering Behemoth

Prepare to be unexcited.

I keep telling my wife that we will meet some of my Okie brethren. My parents left Oklahoma in the dust bowl years as teenagers and went to California. Bakersfield and the central valley are home to those displaced Okies.

217 EdDantes  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 2:16:39am

streets of Bakersfield.

218 researchok  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 2:20:02am

Here’s The Canadiens’ Gary Carter Tribute That Didn’t Air In The United States

Transitions from French to English.

The Expos may be gone from Montreal but Gary Carter was not forgotten.

219 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 2:20:35am

re: #216 EdDantes

You don't need to tell me 'bout Cali Okies.

And besides, as you're already married, you're probably not looking for much excitement anyway.

On the bright side, farm fresh produce!

Just steer clear of those stanktastic dairy farms. They'll cause your yet to be conceived children to be born without noses.

220 EdDantes  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 2:25:28am

re: #219 Slumbering Behemoth

When I was fifteen I worked on a dairy farm. I love the smell of manure in the morning, It smells like, well, shit.

221 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 2:29:01am

re: #220 EdDantes

Enough ammonia to chemically peel the divinity right out of your chosen deity.

222 AK-47%  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 2:36:23am

re: #209 Slumbering Behemoth

Life is better with garlic.

garlic, ginger, chili, cilantro and lemongrass in chicken soup stock. add veggies to taste based on availability. heals whatever ails body or soul.

223 Kragar  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 2:38:15am

re: #209 Slumbering Behemoth

Life is better with garlic.

There is a girl at my office who swears she is allergic to garlic. I don't know how she exists.

224 AK-47%  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 2:39:10am

re: #223 Kragar

There is a girl at my office who swears she is allergic to garlic. I don't know how she exists.

I have known people who are allergic to onions. I suppose it would also count for garlic. I feel sorry for them, though...

225 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 2:43:39am

re: #223 Kragar

She can't. She must be a figment of your tortured imagination.

Love me, love my demon garlic.

226 EdDantes  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 2:44:20am

re: #224 Ministry of Fairness and Balance

I have known people who are allergic to onions. I suppose it would also count for garlic. I feel sorry for them, though...

I think I am allergic to onions. I have despised onions all my life. And after years of dutifully choking them down as a kid, I am unable to swallow them. My throat constricts and I gag. I cannot even pretend anymore.

227 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 2:58:57am

G'nite y'all.

228 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 3:23:45am

Dine on shit, Jim Lakely

229 EdDantes  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 3:56:21am

E. Dantes. cilled a thread on tree.

230 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 4:14:05am

re: #229 EdDantes

E. Dantes. cilled a thread on tree.

Ed Dantes
Sitting on a tree
K-I-L-L-I-N-G

231 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 4:31:42am

60 degrees day before yesterday.

Yesterday? 10 inches of snow.

Today? 50 degrees.

Tomorrow? PROFIT!

232 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 4:34:48am

Hey all!

How is the morning going?

233 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 4:35:38am

re: #226 EdDantes

I think I am allergic to onions. I have despised onions all my life. And after years of dutifully choking them down as a kid, I am unable to swallow them. My throat constricts and I gag. I cannot even pretend anymore.

You are all grown up now. You don't have to find excuses not to eat onions. You can just not eat them.

234 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 4:36:00am

re: #223 Kragar

There is a girl at my office who swears she is allergic to garlic. I don't know how she exists.

If I prayed, I'd say one for her.

235 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 4:37:36am

re: #216 EdDantes

I keep telling my wife that we will meet some of my Okie brethren. My parents left Oklahoma in the dust bowl years as teenagers and went to California. Bakersfield and the central valley are home to those displaced Okies.

I was thinking of the Dust Bowl yesterday and the famous picture of the migrant mother. Another reason to leave birth control options to the individual. Like she needed to be pregnant in this situation (she wasn't). Many other women were I suppose.

236 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 4:46:26am

re: #235 ggt

I see the pictures of the starving mommas and babies in Africa and it breaks my heart.

While I don't put myself in the Pro or Anti abortion camps (having a penis and all that) I am firmly and staunchly pro contraception.

237 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 4:47:45am

Regarding the Saudi cutting oil production?

Can't wait until they're begging for the world to come back to them for oil.

Can't fucking wait.

Economic terrorism, that's all it is.

238 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 4:50:52am

re: #141 Decatur Deb

Have you read Bellamy's utopian "Looking Backward"? It was very influential at the turn of the last century. Everybody had to wait tables for a while.

I read it and the sequel (can't remember the name).

couple things were really weird in it --like no one cooked at home, they showed-up at a facility at a certain time each day and had a regular family meal there. And there were were no salesmen --products had "features/benefits" tags on them and you made a decision and told the clerk what you wanted.

Both seem nice, but not practical in every situation.

Certainly worth reading if you are into utopian literature.

239 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 4:52:04am

re: #236 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I see the pictures of the starving mommas and babies in Africa and it breaks my heart.

While I don't put myself in the Pro or Anti abortion camps (having a penis and all that) I am firmly and staunchly pro contraception.

Afrikan women have a hard time. Cultural norms and all that. Distance from medical care is a big deal too.

240 Sheila Broflovski  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 4:59:45am

re: #238 ggt

I read it and the sequel (can't remember the name).

couple things were really weird in it --like no one cooked at home, they showed-up at a facility at a certain time each day and had a regular family meal there. And there were were no salesmen --products had "features/benefits" tags on them and you made a decision and told the clerk what you wanted.

Both seem nice, but not practical in every situation.

Certainly worth reading if you are into utopian literature.

I had to read it in 9th grade. I thought it was lame.

241 Sheila Broflovski  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 5:02:49am

re: #240 Look At My Grandbaby!

I had to read it in 9th grade. I thought it was lame.

I remember we had to take a test on this book (so the teacher would know that we really did read it, not just skim the "Cliff's Notes") One of the questions was "What did you like best about this story?" I wrote, "I didn't like this story" and listed all the reasons that I thought it sucked. The teacher gave me an A-, because a 9th grader isn't supposed to "not like" a book that is assigned to the class, we don't know enough about literature to "like" or "not like" a book.

I still think the book sucked.

242 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 5:13:40am

I don't know if it's been mentioned above, but this:

It has come to our attention that your blog or web site has taken one or more of the following actions:

- Posted links to a document titled “Confidential Memo: 2012 Heartland Climate Strategy.”

- Posted links to certain other documents purporting to be those of The Heartland Institute.

- Posted blogs or web pages discussing any or all of these documents.

- applies to all blogs. Denier blogs ran with the story too, from their own angle. They too linked to the documents and discussed them at length.

Are there any threats coming to those blogs?

Good public test of HI's honesty.

243 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 5:18:22am

re: #141 Decatur Deb

Have you read Bellamy's utopian "Looking Backward"? It was very influential at the turn of the last century. Everybody had to wait tables for a while.

One of the cultural benefits of everyone waiting tables for a while would be that any citizens with a shred of empathy would then treat wait staff better.

244 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 5:21:21am

re: #243 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste

One of the cultural benefits of everyone waiting tables for a while would be that any citizens with a shred of empathy would then treat wait staff better.

I thought the idea of putting young people to work in a "service" of some sort was a good idea. But it wasn't an original idea, IMHO. Lack of tipping or other incentive was short-sighted too. (again, IMHO)

245 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 5:23:17am

re: #243 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste

I've never waited tables (THANK YOU JAHEEEZUS!), but I attempt to be overly nice to wait staff.

This (for example) is a very simple thing to do. I hand the server the card when I ask for the check. I hate to send them running to the machine (which always seems to be a quarter of a mile away) to get the ticket, then all the way back to me (for me to hand them the card), then all the way back to the machine (to run the card), then all the way back to me (for me to sign and tip).

I always tip 20% plus the change required to get me to an even dollar amount.

246 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 5:23:41am

Herland by Charlotte Perkins Gillman is a much better Utopian novel from that era.

247 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 5:24:32am

re: #245 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I've never waited tables (THANK YOU JAHEEEZUS!), but I attempt to be overly nice to wait staff.

This (for example) is a very simple thing to do. I hand the server the card when I ask for the check. I hate to send them running to the machine (which always seems to be a quarter of a mile away) to get the ticket, then all the way back to me, then all the way back to the machine, then all the way back to me.

I'm not coordinated enough to wait tables. I think I've done every other type of low-level "retail" job tho.

248 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 5:25:16am

There is a dystopian novel about the "engineers and the managers" that I can never remember the name of. It was excellent as well.

249 Sheila Broflovski  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 5:26:31am

re: #247 ggt

I'm not coordinated enough to wait tables. I think I've done every other type of low-level "retail" job tho.

The only table-waiting that I have had to do is at my own house.

Zedushka can't understand why I enjoy eating out: "You cook better than most restaurants anyway."

I said: The cooking IS NOT THE REASON that I like to eat out! I like to be waited on and served something that somebody else made!

He said, "Oh."

250 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 5:27:20am

re: #249 Look At My Grandbaby!

The only table-waiting that I have had to do is at my own house.

Zedushka can't understand why I enjoy eating out: "You cook better than most restaurants anyway."

I said: The cooking IS NOT THE REASON that I like to eat out! I like to be waited on and served something that somebody else made!

He said, "Oh."

My aunt says the "best thing to make for dinner is reservations."

251 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 5:27:32am

From my patio door this morning.

Ain't gonna last long...

252 Decatur Deb  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 5:27:58am

re: #245 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I've never waited tables (THANK YOU JAHEEEZUS!), but I attempt to be overly nice to wait staff.

This (for example) is a very simple thing to do. I hand the server the card when I ask for the check. I hate to send them running to the machine (which always seems to be a quarter of a mile away) to get the ticket, then all the way back to me, then all the way back to the machine, then all the way back to me.

Hate the whole waiter/diner scene, especially tipping. The workers should be paid for their worth, as in Europe. An uptown girl I was once dating got very pissed at me, not because I dropped a bottle on the floor, but because I got down and helped the waitress clean it up.

253 Decatur Deb  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 5:28:40am

re: #246 ggt

Herland by Charlotte Perkins Gillman is a much better Utopian novel from that era.

Sounds like a chick-book.

254 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 5:29:52am

re: #251 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

From my patio door this morning.

Ain't gonna last long...

ahh, easy breathin'!

255 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 5:30:30am

re: #253 Decatur Deb

Sounds like a chick-book.

Not really, a different perspective. I highly recommend it.

256 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 5:30:49am

re: #252 Decatur Deb

As long as an restaurant owner can pay the slave wages; tipping is here to stay.

Good waiters I've known like the tipping system. They think they're worth more than the other waiters. Which "good waiters" are (worth more, I mean).

257 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 5:30:57am

re: #245 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I've never waited tables (THANK YOU JAHEEEZUS!), but I attempt to be overly nice to wait staff.

This (for example) is a very simple thing to do. I hand the server the card when I ask for the check. I hate to send them running to the machine (which always seems to be a quarter of a mile away) to get the ticket, then all the way back to me (for me to hand them the card), then all the way back to the machine (to run the card), then all the way back to me (for me to sign and tip).

I always tip 20% plus the change required to get me to an even dollar amount.

I don't have the personality to handle the job, and know it. But I've had direct family and friends who have made a living (sort of) waiting tables and therefore have some appreciation of what goes into it.

258 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 5:32:01am
259 Decatur Deb  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 5:32:24am

re: #256 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

As long as an restaurant owner can pay the slave wages; tipping is here to stay.

Good waiters I've known like the tipping system. They think they're worth more than the other waiters. Which "good waiters" are (worth more, I mean).

I hope America never gets to the point where we have a lot of good waiters and other servants.

260 Mich-again  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 5:32:43am

re: #81 The fascist squeaky wheels get the grease

This might sound very ignorant but if an organization is tax excempt can they donate money to political organizations?

From doing some research into ProEnglish, the 501(c)(3) that sponspored the conference at CPAC featuring VDARE's Peter Brimelow, charitable organizations are allowed to use 20% of their revenue for outright lobbying. Its a sliding scale, the higher the revenues go, the lower the allowable % and it maxes out eventually. To go beyond that level, they have to get creative on the IRS Form 990.

Here is a useful link. You can search charitable organizations and obtain copies of their 990 Forms. Foundation Center Boy I hope that Heartland Institute doesn't threaten to sue me for posting that link. ha.

261 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 5:33:12am

re: #256 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

As long as an restaurant owner can pay the slave wages; tipping is here to stay.

Good waiters I've known like the tipping system. They think they're worth more than the other waiters. Which "good waiters" are (worth more, I mean).

Tipping is like commission IMHO. Waiters give better service because their income depends on it. "Waiting" also one of the last areas in which a person can make a living wage with little or no education.

I know one waiter in Chicago that makes over 6 figures. He wouldn't trade it for anything. Get's to be home with his kids during the day etc . . .

262 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 5:33:47am

re: #259 Decatur Deb

I've met A waiter who made over a hundred grand a year.

263 Sheila Broflovski  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 5:35:49am

re: #261 ggt

Tipping is like commission IMHO. Waiters give better service because their income depends on it. "Waiting" also one of the last areas in which a person can make a living wage with little or no education.

I know one waiter in Chicago that makes over 6 figures. He wouldn't trade it for anything. Get's to be home with his kids during the day etc . . .

I never eat out, because there are no good kosher restaurants where I live. The only one "fancy" restaurant, a vegetarian place, hasn't updated their menu in like 15 years!

When I go somewhere there are a lot of kosher restaurants, like Toronto or New York, I'm just blown away by the prices. I try to include a 20% tip but sometimes it's so expensive I can only manage 15%.

264 Decatur Deb  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 5:37:02am

re: #262 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I've met A waiter who made over a hundred grand a year.

Mmmm.. that's about .8 milli-Madonnas.

265 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 5:38:33am

Dear Sarah,

Yes, there is a reason that scientists, and even governments, are interested in keeping track of volcanic and earthquake activity. It's so that you don't wake up some morning under a 2" coat of ash and have no idea where it came from and that it might be coming.

And in this case, why it's blocking your view of Russia.

266 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 5:41:11am

re: #263 Look At My Grandbaby!

When I went to Detroit, I used to love "Inn Season Cafe" in Royal Oak.

267 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 5:41:54am

re: #260 Mich-again

From doing some research into ProEnglish, the 501(c)(3) that sponspored the conference at CPAC featuring VDARE's Peter Brimelow, charitable organizations are allowed to use 20% of their revenue for outright lobbying. Its a sliding scale, the higher the revenues go, the lower the allowable % and it maxes out eventually. To go beyond that level, they have to get creative on the IRS Form 990.

Here is a useful link. You can search charitable organizations and obtain copies of their 990 Forms. Foundation Center Boy I hope that Heartland Institute doesn't threaten to sue me for posting that link. ha.

Very useful --thanks for posting.

268 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 5:42:58am

re: #259 Decatur Deb

I hope America never gets to the point where we have a lot of good waiters and other servants.

why?

269 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 5:45:00am

re: #268 ggt

why?

I think it's due to:
1. A lot of "good waiters and servants" implies we've established a permanent underclass
2. For many waiting is a temporary position while one works towards something better (college degree, landing a job using an acquired degree, etc.)

270 Decatur Deb  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 5:46:00am

re: #268 ggt

why?

Because we're supposed to be cowboys and rebels and jet pilots. (Feeling very proletarian this morning--must be close to May Day.)

271 Mich-again  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 5:46:18am

re: #267 ggt
You can wade through the 50 pages or so in an IRS Form 990 and from the instructions on the forms you can get a pretty good idea of what the rules are supposed to be. And the forms list all the salaries and names of the officers and also where the income stream came from and which other orgs they donated to.

My impression is that the whole industry is rife with cheating the IRS and they all are relying on herd protection. If we're all doing it, it can't be illegal.

272 Sheila Broflovski  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 5:48:47am

re: #271 Mich-again

You can wade through the 50 pages or so in an IRS Form 990 and from the instructions on the forms you can get a pretty good idea of what the rules are supposed to be. And the forms list all the salaries and names of the officers and also where the income stream came from and which other orgs they donated to.

My impression is that the whole industry is rife with cheating the IRS and they all are relying on herd protection. If we're all doing it, it can't be illegal.

I have my own 501(c)(3) and I have filed the short form 990-N every year, since we make less than $25,000 a year. In fact we pretty much make just enough to maintain the archive, pay the web host, and keep the software up to date.

Sure would be nice to find some generous sugar daddy. :)

273 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 5:48:56am

re: #266 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

When I went to Detroit, I used to love "Inn Season Cafe" in Royal Oak.

Hey, Lou! You ever eaten there? They're certified Kosher.

274 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 5:48:57am

re: #270 Decatur Deb

Because we're supposed to be cowboys and rebels and jet pilots. (Feeling very proletarian this morning--must be close to May Day.)

You forgot rocket scientists. Someone has to build those big missiles for the parade. The captured Germans only stretch so far.

275 Decatur Deb  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 5:50:31am

re: #272 Look At My Grandbaby!

I have my own 501(c)(3) and I have filed the short form 990-N every year, since we make less than $25,000 a year. In fact we pretty much make just enough to maintain the archive, pay the web host, and keep the software up to date.

Sure would be nice to find some generous sugar daddy. :)

If Soros isn't coming across, try the Kochs.

276 Sheila Broflovski  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 5:50:33am

re: #273 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Hey, Lou! You ever eaten there? They're certified Kosher.

I did not even know that had a kosher certification. It's a Conservative rabbi, though, Zedushka would not eat there.

277 Obdicut  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 5:51:33am

re: #256 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

As long as an restaurant owner can pay the slave wages; tipping is here to stay.

Good waiters I've known like the tipping system. They think they're worth more than the other waiters. Which "good waiters" are (worth more, I mean).

Some bad waiters who are good at being lazy at side work and blaming others also like the tipping system.

278 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 5:54:45am

re: #271 Mich-again

You can wade through the 50 pages or so in an IRS Form 990 and from the instructions on the forms you can get a pretty good idea of what the rules are supposed to be. And the forms list all the salaries and names of the officers and also where the income stream came from and which other orgs they donated to.

My impression is that the whole industry is rife with cheating the IRS and they all are relying on herd protection. If we're all doing it, it can't be illegal.

I think many Big, Big Not-for-Profits walk a fine line between doing good work an being a scam --or self-perpetuating.

It's sad.

279 Sheila Broflovski  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 5:55:34am

re: #278 ggt

I think many Big, Big Not-for-Profits walk a fine line between doing good work an being a scam --or self-perpetuating.

It's sad.

Like Komen, or PETA.

280 Obdicut  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 5:56:35am

re: #261 ggt

Tipping is like commission IMHO. Waiters give better service because their income depends on it.

As an ex-bartender/waiter, no, this isn't true The things that you do to get good tips are a separate entity from what is good service. They overlap, but they're not identical.

Refilling customers' water-glasses whenever they're empty is both good service and tends to help with tips.

Being charming and appropriately subservient is not good service, but it does generate good tips.

Inspecting plates as they come out of the kitchen and making sure there's nothing funky going on is not going to get you any good tips, but is a key part of good service.

Identifying the alpha male at the table and leading him to ordering the Calvados after dinner, and otherwise pushing drinks on people, is exploitative, irresponsible service, but generates great tips.

Mostly, though, the problem is that, other than very-high-end dining, restaurants get by on the bare minimum of staff, knowing that they'll still make money but the waiters will have to run around like crazy. And if they fuck up, the waiters tips will suffer but the restaurant will still make the same amount of money.

281 Decatur Deb  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 5:57:02am

re: #278 ggt

I think many Big, Big Not-for-Profits walk a fine line between doing good work an being a scam --or self-perpetuating.

It's sad.

Millard Fuller, the Habitat guy I linked upthread, had a battle with the mature second-generation leadership of his group. He said he didn't want it to become "Just another big charity".

282 mumbly-joe  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 6:02:22am

Huh. This sounds pretty much identical to a tactic that Diebold Elections Systems used in the early 2000s, to go after people who got their hand on damning memos that revealed that the company was aware of critical and exploitable system flaws in their election machines. In particular, the dual arguments that these memos are a)stolen copyrighted material, and b)fraudlent.

Of course, this doesn't pass the sniff test: if they're fake, then it's not subject to their copyright, because they didn't produce the work in question: it's a matter of libel law, and publishers in good faith aren't actually liable. And if they *are* real and stolen, and thus arguably subject to copyright claims, then they fall solidly within fair use provisions.

By contrast, cease and desist notifications like this actually are illegal, as they're covered by the anti-SLAPP provisions of the DMCA. In Deibold's case, a couple of college students (and the EFF) counter-sued Deibold for issuing the cease-and-desists, and won. One would think things like that would make people like the Heartland Institute think twice about going this route, but evidently not.

283 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 6:04:26am

re: #262 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I've met A waiter who made over a hundred grand a year.

I've known more than 1. Was using that particular guy as an example.

Being near a large Metro area like Chicago probably skews my viewpoint a little.

284 Obdicut  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 6:04:36am

re: #282 mumbly-joe

That's cool about the counter-suit; I didn't know that.

285 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 6:05:00am

Dogs got me up way too early. I'm going to finish my night's sleep.

Have a great day all!

286 Obdicut  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 6:05:35am

re: #262 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I've met A waiter who made over a hundred grand a year.

The best part of being a good waiter/bartender isn't the direct compensation, but the tickets to shows, games, invitations to parties, etc.

But it involves way too much sucking up to self-important assholes.

287 Sheila Broflovski  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 6:07:27am

re: #266 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

All right, I just checked the "Inn Season Cafe" "Kosher certification" page and now I'm really pissed. This is the "New Kosher" shield which disregards traditional kosher rules and makes up a bunch of new ones. The creators of this "New Kosher" promised that they would NEVER attempt to mislead and confuse the consumer by competing with traditional kosher certification organizations, but it looks like that is what they are totally doing in this case.

Conservative rabbis were pissed that Orthodox organizations had a "monopoly" on Kosher certification, mainly because Orthodox Jews are very stringent about eating onlhy kosher products at home and at restaurants, while Conservative and Reform Jews are more lenient, meaning, they will eat at establishments that are not kosher. So the Conservative rabbis founded the "Magen Tzedek" (so-called "ethical" Kosher) which is supposed to be a "New" set of laws they made up. But the fact is that they crave that sweet, sweet "Kosher certification" money that they think the Orthodox are just rolling in.

The food prepared at "Inn Season Cafe" is probably kosher since it does not include any meat or dairy products, but is NOT prepared according to traditional kosher rules and is misleading the consumer, which they PROMISED THEY WOULD NEVER DO.

288 Decatur Deb  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 6:13:09am

re: #287 Look At My Grandbaby!

All right, I just checked the "Inn Season Cafe" "Kosher certification" page and now I'm really pissed. This is the "New Kosher" shield which disregards traditional kosher rules and makes up a bunch of new ones. The creators of this "New Kosher" promised that they would NEVER attempt to mislead and confuse the consumer by competing with traditional kosher certification organizations, but it looks like that is what they are totally doing in this case.

Conservative rabbis were pissed that Orthodox organizations had a "monopoly" on Kosher certification, mainly because Orthodox Jews are very stringent about eating onlhy kosher products at home and at restaurants, while Conservative and Reform Jews are more lenient, meaning, they will eat at establishments that are not kosher. So the Conservative rabbis founded the "Magen Tzedek" (so-called "ethical" Kosher) which is supposed to be a "New" set of laws they made up. But the fact is that they crave that sweet, sweet "Kosher certification" money that they think the Orthodox are just rolling in.

The food prepared at "Inn Season Cafe" is probably kosher since it does not include any meat or dairy products, but is NOT prepared according to traditional kosher rules and is misleading the consumer, which they PROMISED THEY WOULD NEVER DO.

Tying together the 'Waitress' and 'Kosher' threadlets, I always felt sorry for the TWA cabin staff on the JFK-Ben Gurion run. "Would you please raise your hand if you pre-ordered the Kosher-vegetarian-diabetic meal...Anyone?..."

289 Sheila Broflovski  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 6:14:11am

re: #288 Decatur Deb

Tying together the 'Waitress' and 'Kosher' threadlets, I always felt sorry for the TWA cabin staff on the JFK-Ben Gurion run. "Would you please raise your hand if you pre-ordered the Kosher-vegetarian-diabetic meal...Anyone?..."

Zedushka: "If no one else claims it, it's totally mine!"

290 Obdicut  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 6:19:30am

re: #282 mumbly-joe

Are you named after the Simpson Dole reference, by the way?

Or are you a guy named Joe who mumbles?

And welcome.

291 Sheila Broflovski  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 6:26:53am

Well, I was going to blog this story about Egyptians freaking out that "magnets" in Israeli products will destroy their manhood !1!tybut it looks like all the wingnuts and stalkers have already picked it up.

292 Achilles Tang  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 6:32:07am

I wonder if Phil Plait received the email as well?

Indignant bullshit

293 Decatur Deb  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 6:34:01am

Memorandum is carry traffic about bloggers getting the Heartland love-letter:

[Link: scienceblogs.com...]

Greg Laden / Greg Laden's Blog:
I just got an email from the Heartland Institute about the “HeartlandGate” documents
+
Discussion: DeSmogBlog, Scholars and Rogues, Recorder Online, Little Green Footballs and The Diary of Daedalus

294 AK-47%  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 6:38:52am

re: #248 ggt

There is a dystopian novel about the "engineers and the managers" that I can never remember the name of. It was excellent as well.

Zamyatin's ""We"?

295 Decatur Deb  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 6:40:26am

re: #294 Ministry of Fairness and Balance

Zamyatin's ""We"?

Remember that as "Brave New World-ski".

296 Killgore Trout  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 6:40:41am

re: #291 Look At My Grandbaby!

Well, I was going to blog this story about Egyptians freaking out that "magnets" in Israeli products will destroy their manhood !1!tybut it looks like all the wingnuts and stalkers have already picked it up.

The next couple years in Egypt are going to be very interesting. I'm not overly optimistic.

297 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 6:49:39am

Guys? I've been watching the "second snowfall" since about 9am.. We had a gorgeous snowfall yesterday, and today before 10am, the temperature is above freezing and the sun is strong.

One small clump of snow lets go from a tree branch, the branch moves a little, sends a vibration to the next branch causing another small or large clump to let go... the chain reaction goes on for hours.

I think it's one of the prettiest things in nature to watch.

(just found this)

298 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 6:56:49am

re: #297 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Guys? I've been watching the "second snowfall" since about 9am.. We had a gorgeous snowfall yesterday, and today before 10am, the temperature is above freezing and the sun is strong.

One small clump of snow lets go from a tree branch, the branch moves a little, sends a vibration to the next branch causing another small or large clump to let go... the chain reaction goes on for hours.

I think it's one of the prettiest things in nature to watch.

(just found this)

[Video]

Cross-country skiing in woods on a clear day right after a low wind snowfall is gorgeous. Sunlight and lots of snow up in the trees reflecting off of it.

Then a friend skis up beside you and wacks the trunk of the tree with a ski pole as he goes by...
(whoomp)

299 Gus  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 6:58:14am

re: #291 Look At My Grandbaby!

Well, I was going to blog this story about Egyptians freaking out that "magnets" in Israeli products will destroy their manhood !1!tybut it looks like all the wingnuts and stalkers have already picked it up.

I'm seeing three Egyptians and one conspiracy show (much like they have here in the USA). The three Egyptians being Osama Selim, Dr. Suhair Hassan and "member of the Sawarka Bedouin tribe." Most of the article seems to center on this Egyptian hillbilly of the Bedouin tribe.

Obviously they didn't take a poll and came to the conclusion that all Egyptians "claim Israeli goods cause disease, infertility." But the American right-wingers wouldn't make that claim now would they? Of course they would.

Now imagine if we were to write and article based on the wild claims of the American right-wing (or left for that matter) regarding some foreign conspiracy. Of which there are many. Headline! "Americans believe terrorist babies invading from south of the border!"

I see they featured the same writer, Roi Kais, at Prison Planet once.

300 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 6:58:29am

re: #298 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste

"Hey son... Go shovel under that tree right there"... (snowball in hand aimed at that strategic branch)...

301 Obdicut  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 6:58:31am

re: #297 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

My favorite thing as a kid was when freezing rain would adhere to the trees, enshrouding all of them in thick ice. Then, when I walked through the still, water-mulch-smelling woods, the wind would blow, the branches creak, the ice crack, and tumble down with sounds like shattering laughing crystal. Such a beautiful sound, such a beautiful sight. Like being in a diamond forest.

302 Sheila Broflovski  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 7:00:01am

re: #301 Obdicut

My favorite thing as a kid was when freezing rain would adhere to the trees, enshrouding all of them in thick ice. Then, when I walked through the still, water-mulch-smelling woods, the wind would blow, the branches creak, the ice crack, and tumble down with sounds like shattering laughing crystal. Such a beautiful sound, such a beautiful sight. Like being in a diamond forest.

Then you became an adult and had to drive to work on ice covered roads.

303 Obdicut  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 7:01:11am

re: #302 Look At My Grandbaby!

Then you became an adult and had to drive to work on ice covered roads.

Nah, I don't drive. But even back then, I had to shovel two long driveways, which cut into the sentimentality somewhat.

304 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 7:02:00am

re: #300 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

"Hey son... Go shovel under that tree right there"... (snowball in hand aimed at that strategic branch)...

The bad part is that only works once. And the son is aiming for payback every time you shovel from then on.

305 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 7:03:18am

re: #301 Obdicut

When I was young, (before Al Gore fucked up the weather patterns) we had a huge ice storm, I lived in a heavy tree area and there was up to two inches of ice on the trees.

There were explosions where two foot thick tree branches would snap off and crash to the ground. Some landing close enough to frighten me. I was on my way home, it was like I was an Orc and the trees were suicidal Ents bent on my distruction.

306 AK-47%  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 7:03:43am

re: #301 Obdicut

...the wind sang us a lullaby
the snow was thick as cream
and icicles were chandeliers like crystals in a dream
and the streams were strips of diamond and the fields were white with sno
and a bear ate all our soybeans in the night...

...when blizzards snap the power lines and all the toilets freeze
In December in the Colorado Rockies...

307 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 7:04:16am

re: #304 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste

Every once in a while, my son looks at me and says, "The day is coming, Dad. The day is coming."

308 Sheila Broflovski  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 7:04:43am

re: #303 Obdicut

Nah, I don't drive. But even back then, I had to shovel two long driveways, which cut into the sentimentality somewhat.

We had to drive back to Detroit from NY on the I-80. Fortunately we pulled off the road and checked into a motel at about the same time as 20 cars crashed when the road froze over.

309 Obdicut  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 7:06:28am

re: #305 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Ooh, yeah, I also used to love charging around with a big stick smacking the ice off the trees. We had a pine forest behind our house, and the lower branches were dead and dry, so I could smack them off, too.

Anytime my parents were having a screaming fight I'd just go out into the woods and do whatever. In spring, catching frogs and finding flowers, in summer, building dams in the stream to catch crawdaddies, in autumn, finding skeleton leaves, mushrooms for my mom, and smacking the fallen pine trees around, and in winter, all the things of snow and ice.

I've been living in cities since then, and my wife couldn't stand to live in the country, but I miss that-- being alone, being unfettered, being in my domain.

310 Killgore Trout  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 7:10:30am

re: #305 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

When I was young, (before Al Gore fucked up the weather patterns) we had a huge ice storm, I lived in a heavy tree area and there was up to two inches of ice on the trees.

There were explosions where two foot thick tree branches would snap off and crash to the ground. Some landing close enough to frighten me. I was on my way home, it was like I was an Orc and the trees were suicidal Ents bent on my distruction.

I have bamboo planted around the perimeter of my back yard. During snow or ice storms the tops of the bamboo load up with snow and ice. they slowly start to bend and bow. Once they're loaded enough they spring back up and catapult the remaining snow into the air. It's quite a show.

311 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 7:10:52am

re: #309 Obdicut

We had heavy trees but were in an old rundown neighborhood.

Next door neighbors were sloppy drunks and would have screaming arguments, I'd lay awake and listen to them wail at each other.

Aah... childhood joys.

312 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 7:11:20am

re: #310 KT Smells like Roses and Rainbows

BOING!

313 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 7:12:40am

I really shouldn't let a perfectly good Ritalin go to waste.

Gonna blow through some chores.

314 mdey  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 7:18:55am

LGF got a shout out from Eric Bohlert this morning on The Stephanie Miller Show. They were talking about the racist comments about Whitney Houston at The Fox Nation.

315 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 7:27:11am

Morning Lizardim. So now the wingnuts are deciding to threaten legal action to make this whole thing go away. It'd be funny if it wasn't so sad. No, wait, it's still funny.

316 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 7:28:19am

re: #308 Look At My Grandbaby!

We had to drive back to Detroit from NY on the I-80. Fortunately we pulled off the road and checked into a motel at about the same time as 20 cars crashed when the road froze over.

I-80 is an ugly beast in winter weather. Runs close enough to the Great Lakes to get lake effect snow. And the sections in PA are hilly enough and have some odd places along the ridges with bad cross-winds and other flaky "microclimate" effects.

My parents would drop further south (if possible) when dealing with winter weather on their drives between north country NY and west-central PA.

317 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 7:30:36am

re: #309 Obdicut

I've been living in cities since then, and my wife couldn't stand to live in the country, but I miss that-- being alone, being unfettered, being in my domain.

One thing I'm eternally grateful for is that I married a country bumpkin, like myself. My wife understands my need for open spaces, loves pickup trucks, and is attracted to the smell of diesel fuel.

318 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 7:34:16am

re: #311 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

We had heavy trees but were in an old rundown neighborhood.

Next door neighbors were sloppy drunks and would have screaming arguments, I'd lay awake and listen to them wail at each other.

Aah... childhood joys.

My best friend's family were yellers. It's just how they settled disagreements, even among the kids. Off-putting to me since my family handled things completely differently. And my parents settled differences in private away from the kids.

319 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 7:35:00am

re: #317 thedopefishlives

One thing I'm eternally grateful for is that I married a country bumpkin, like myself. My wife understands my need for open spaces, loves pickup trucks, and is attracted to the smell of diesel fuel.

She drew the line at the banjo music though, didn't she?

320 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 7:35:58am

re: #319 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste

She drew the line at the banjo music though, didn't she?

Yeah, pretty much. Also, she refuses to let me keep a tractor in the garage, like my dad used to.

321 AK-47%  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 7:36:37am

re: #320 thedopefishlives

Yeah, pretty much. Also, she refuses to let me keep a tractor in the garage, like my dad used to.

Keep it in the bedroom, then...

322 Gus  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 7:37:06am

From the Maddow Blog on MSNBC:

Right rallies to defend Va. ultrasound bill
By Steve Benen
Mon Feb 20, 2012 10:00 AM EST

CNN contributor Dana Loesch, on her radio show, was even more dismissive of complaints about state-mandated mandatory trans-vaginal ultrasounds.

"That's the big thing that progressives are trying to say, that it's rape and so on and so forth. And in fact, this big battle that I've, uh, totally won with Keith Olbermann by the way, like, not only won once but twice and three times. Uh, there were individuals saying, 'Oh what about the Virginia rape? The rapes that, the forced rapes of women who are pregnant?' What?

"Wait a minute, they had no problem having similar to a trans-vaginal procedure when they engaged in the act that resulted in their pregnancy."

Little Green Footballs link in body of text.

323 erik_t  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 7:41:22am

re: #322 Gus

Little Green Footballs link in body of text.

Who?

/

324 Gus  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 7:45:21am

re: #323 erik_t

Who?

/

You know. That "irrelevant blog."

//

325 AK-47%  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 7:54:14am

re: #322 Gus

From the Maddow Blog on MSNBC:

Right rallies to defend Va. ultrasound bill
By Steve Benen
Mon Feb 20, 2012 10:00 AM EST

Little Green Footballs link in body of text.

"Wait a minute, they had no problem having similar to a trans-vaginal procedure when they engaged in the act that resulted in their pregnancy."

I see. Once a woman spreads 'em she is a fallen woman and we can treat her however we choose...

Ezekiel 16:36: "your shame was laid bare and your nakedness uncovered in your harlotries with your lovers ...."

326 Gus  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 7:56:01am

re: #325 Ministry of Fairness and Balance

"Wait a minute, they had no problem having similar to a trans-vaginal procedure when they engaged in the act that resulted in their pregnancy."

I see. Once a woman spreads 'em she is a fallen woman and we can treat her however we choose...

Ezekiel 16:36: "your shame was laid bare and your nakedness uncovered in your harlotries with your lovers ..."

Apparently the Republican Party sees men as people; corporations as people; and women are private property.

327 Kronocide  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 7:56:10am

re: #325 Ministry of Fairness and Balance

In other words, she asked for it.

328 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 7:56:29am

re: #326 Gus

Apparently the Republican Party sees men as people; corporations as people; and women are private property.

You pretty much nailed it right there. Women aren't people, they're things. Now get back in the kitchen and make me a sammich.

329 Kronocide  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 7:58:33am
Republican presidential candidate Rick Santorum says President Barack Obama is beholden to "radical environmentalists" and has "a world view that elevates the earth above man."

Zygote Hugger!

330 NJDhockeyfan  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 7:59:36am

Good morning lizards! I measured 8 inched of snow this morning . Most of it will probably be melted by this evening.

331 Gus  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 7:59:44am

re: #328 thedopefishlives

You pretty much nailed it right there. Women aren't people, they're things. Now get back in the kitchen and make me a sammich.

Yep. But ironically not as private property in a free-market sense. They see women as private-property in a collective sense. That is society of "people" (men and corporations) own title to women -- according to the GOP. ;)

332 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 8:03:20am

re: #331 Gus

Yep. But ironically not as private property in a free-market sense. They see women as private-property in a collective sense. That is society of "people" (men and corporations) own title to women -- according to the GOP. ;)

Yep. Because women aren't slaves, oh no, not at all. They're just not allowed to be fully human. Their opinions don't matter, they don't need to vote or work or even drive. They have men to do these things for them.

333 Lidane  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 8:03:23am

re: #326 Gus

Apparently the Republican Party sees men as people; corporations as people; and women are private property.

We have a winner!

That's exactly it. According to these people, women are supposed to remain ignorant of their bodies ("abstinence only" sex ed), consent once means consent for a lifetime (Dana Loesch's idiocy), they're not allowed to decide on their own medical care and shouldn't be allowed the means to prevent pregnancy (both Rick Santorum and the all-male panel on birth control), and if they DO end up pregnant, well, they should be slut-shamed and violated to "inform" them of their pregnancy via an invasive ultrasound, because women are too stupid to know what's going on with their bodies.

And I'm supposed to believe that the Republican party is pro-woman? Pfft.

334 PhillyPretzel  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 8:04:05am

re: #328 thedopefishlives
Now let me introduce you to the refrigerator which stores all of your sandwich ingredients and now fix it yourself.

335 Interesting Times  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 8:05:23am

re: #333 Lidane

And I'm supposed to believe that the Republican party is pro-woman? Pfft.

Lady Ultrasound

336 Kronocide  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 8:05:47am

It's very clear that sex is not for pleasure and women are not to control when they get pregnant. Men will handle that part.

Got it.

337 NJDhockeyfan  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 8:05:50am

PayPal founder Peter Thiel donates $1.7M to Ron Paul PAC

PayPal co-founder Peter Thiel donated another $1.7 million in January to the super PAC supporting Ron Paul’s presidential bid, according to documents released Monday.

Theil, a billionaire who runs the hedge fund Clarium Capital, has donated a total of $2.6 million to the pro-Paul group Endorse Liberty since it was founded on Dec. 20.

He’s the largest contributor to the super PAC, which reported bringing in $2.4 million in January in addition to its late December haul of $1 million, according to the reports filed with the Federal Election Commission.
Other big donors to Endorse Liberty include Stephen Oskoui, founder of Smiley Media and co-founder of the super PAC, and Gunter Marksteiner, owner of a Florida broadcasting group. Oskoui donated $125,000 in late January and provided $296,000 of in-kind media services. Marksteiner cut a check for$2,500 and donated $161,000 in in-kind air time on WHDT, the groups filings show. Luke Nosek, another PayPal co-founder, contributed $10,000.

338 jaunte  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 8:06:04am

re: #332 thedopefishlives

"Freedom isn't to do whatever you want to do, it's to do what you ought to do"
-- Rick Santorum

339 erik_t  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 8:07:03am

re: #337 NJDhockeyfan

PayPal founder Peter Thiel donates $1.7M to Ron Paul PAC

Paypal likes to take advantage of their somewhat dubious legal status, being a bank when convenient and a non-bank when inconvenient, so I'm not at all surprised they'd love King Deregulator making all the rules.

340 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 8:07:15am

re: #336 Kronocide

It's very clear that sex is not for pleasure and women are not to control when they get pregnant. Men will handle that part.

Got it.

This is how the extreme religious right thinks. I'm serious. They really do believe that having sex for any reason except to procreate is a sin. The funny thing is, they're holding up this puritanical ideal that has never existed in history. In fact, just the opposite in many cases.

341 PhillyPretzel  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 8:07:31am

re: #338 jaunte
He is inflicting his "religion" on us. ugh.

342 Gus  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 8:08:55am

re: #333 Lidane

We have a winner!

That's exactly it. According to these people, women are supposed to remain ignorant of their bodies ("abstinence only" sex ed), consent once means consent for a lifetime (Dana Loesch's idiocy), they're not allowed to decide on their own medical care and shouldn't be allowed the means to prevent pregnancy (both Rick Santorum and the all-male panel on birth control), and if they DO end up pregnant, well, they should be slut-shamed and violated to "inform" them of their pregnancy via an invasive ultrasound, because women are too stupid to know what's going on with their bodies.

And I'm supposed to believe that the Republican party is pro-woman? Pfft.

A lot of this also plays into the reason they oppose gay marriage.

343 ProGunLiberal  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 8:09:06am

Santorum is un-American. He wants the US to be the Christian Version of Iran.

ThinkProgress @thinkprogress Close
"Freedom isnt to do whatever you want to do, it's to do what you ought to do" -- Rick Santorum (via @AndrewNBCNews)

How do I put the tweet in my post?

344 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 8:09:38am

re: #342 Gus

A lot of this also plays into the reason they oppose gay marriage.

If two gay people are married, who decides which one is the woman? There's got to be a subservient subhuman partner in every relationship, after all.

345 Gus  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 8:12:09am

re: #344 thedopefishlives

If two gay people are married, who decides which one is the woman? There's got to be a subservient subhuman partner in every relationship, after all.

...

With gay marriage a man can "own" a man and a woman can "own" a woman. Do these people not realize that it has been handed down to us from the sky above that the only people that are entitled to "ownership" are men and that through marriage between a man and "his woman" it is the man that is entitled to own "his woman."

346 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 8:16:01am

re: #345 Gus

...

With gay marriage a man can "own" a man and a woman can "own" a woman. Do these people not realize that it has been handed down to us from the sky above that the only people that are entitled to "ownership" are men and that through marriage between a man and "his woman" it is the man that is entitled to own "his woman."

If I tried to pull that shit with the Mrs. Fish, she'd roundhouse kick me into next week.

347 Sheila Broflovski  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 8:16:54am

Zedushka know that I totally own him.

348 Killgore Trout  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 8:20:06am

"Jury is out" on NYPD's Muslim students probe

The attached written article is pretty flimsy but the video interview is a reasonable discussion of the issues involved.

349 Kronocide  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 8:30:47am

Paypal must be hacked, I haven't been able to get on it for 45 minutes.

350 Decatur Deb  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 8:32:34am

Speaking of suing people, this 92-yr old tap dancer is in violation of Susan G Koman's "For the Cure" meme:


(Ripped from today's Crooks and Liars.)

351 NJDhockeyfan  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 8:37:10am

Iranian Warships Arrive at Syrian Port

(NewsCore) - Two Iranian warships docked at the Syrian port of Tartus in what was described as a training mission, following a provocative journey through the Suez Canal at a time of global tension over the Islamic Republic's nuclear ambitions.

The vessels, a destroyer and a supply ship, docked in the Syrian port after passing through the canal Saturday. Tartus is home to Damascus-ally Russia's only Mediterranean naval base.

The mission was "to provide maritime training to naval forces of Syria under an agreement signed between Tehran and Damascus a year ago," Iranian English-language broadcaster Press TV reported Monday.

The passage through the Suez Canal was only the second made by Iranian ships since the 1979 Islamic Revolution.

352 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 8:39:16am

re: #351 NJDhockeyfan

OOGA BOOGA!

353 Killgore Trout  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 8:39:46am

Khamenei's outlook dims hope for Iran nuclear deal

Khamenei, 72, holds power in a country whose Shi'ite Muslim religious leadership has made "Death to America, death to Israel" its mantra since the 1979 Islamic revolution.

This month Khamenei said sanctions would not alter Iran's nuclear course, military threats would "harm America" and any nation or group fighting Israel, thought to be the Middle East's only nuclear-armed power, would have Tehran's backing.

"In response to threats of oil embargo and war, we have our own threats to impose at the right time," he declared.

354 Kronocide  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 8:40:01am
355 Lidane  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 8:40:04am

Tell me again how these people are pro-women?

356 Killgore Trout  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 8:43:08am

re: #351 NJDhockeyfan

Iranian Warships Arrive at Syrian Port

Iran seems to be pretty open about propping up Assad. I think it's only a matter of time before we see a really brutal crackdown from the regime. I doubt the West will respond with anything more than a strongly worded letter.

357 NJDhockeyfan  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 8:43:42am

Oil hits 8-month high on Iran, China moves

LONDON, Feb 20 (Reuters) - Brent crude rose on Monday, briefly hitting an eight-month high above $121 a barrel, as Iran halted exports to British and French companies ahead of a European Union embargo.

Policy easing by China and hopes for a Greek bailout also buoyed prices.

Brent crude was up 47 cents at $120.10 a barrel by 1455 GMT, having hit a session high of $121.15 earlier. The level was the highest since mid-June last year.

In euro terms, Brent crude is nearing its record high hit in summer 2008, according to Reuters data.

Here it comes. The experts have been saying we could be paying $5.00/gal this summer. Yikes!

358 Sheila Broflovski  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 8:44:43am

re: #350 Decatur Deb

Speaking of suing people, this 92-yr old tap dancer is in violation of Susan G Koman's "For the Cure" meme:

[Video]
(Ripped from today's Crooks and Liars.)

I'm totally sick of the "Cure" meme, no matter who uses it. There is never going to be a "Cure" for cancer. There can be early detection and life-prolonging treatment, but "Cancer" encompasses a wide variety of syndromes for which there is no one single "Cure." And tap-dancing and buying pink shit does not "cure" cancer.

359 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 8:44:44am

re: #357 NJDhockeyfan

Oil hits 8-month high on Iran, China moves

Here it comes. The experts have been saying we could be paying $5.00/gal this summer. Yikes!

OOGA BOOGA!

/Is there an echo in here?

360 Kronocide  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 8:44:55am

As news breaks of PayPal founder's donation to Ron Paul, I've not been able to get on PayPal.

361 erik_t  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 8:46:17am

re: #359 thedopefishlives

OOGA BOOGA!

/Is there an echo in here?

Rampant and uncontrolled speculation is so awesome.

362 Lidane  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 8:46:38am

re: #357 NJDhockeyfan

The experts have been saying we could be paying $5.00/gal this summer. Yikes!

And just yesterday the wingnut blogs were bleating about $4.50/gallon gas by Labor Day.

The talking points must be slipping. Someone needs to get on that.

363 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 8:47:52am

re: #361 erik_t

Rampant and uncontrolled speculation is so awesome.

I'm not going to disagree that the price of oil is ridiculous, but I refuse to be cowed, refuse to be paranoid, refuse to be afraid.

364 sattv4u2  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 8:48:01am

re: #359 thedopefishlives

re: #361 erik_t

re: #362 Lidane

You're all correct

Gas prices were only an issue when GWB was protecting his Saudi Oil Overlords

Now that the price at the pump is nearly two times what they were when he left office ,,,,, crickets!!

365 erik_t  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 8:49:12am

re: #364 sattv4u2

re: #361 erik_t

re: #362 Lidane

You're all correct

Gas prices were only an issue when GWB was protecting his Saudi Oil Overlords

Now that the price at the pump is nearly two times what they were when he left office ,,, crickets!!

Mmmm, straw. I like straw.

366 Kronocide  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 8:49:41am

Balance Fairy pushing false narrative.

367 Coracle  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 8:50:03am

re: #364 sattv4u2

Yeah. We should return to the economic conditions of Bush's departure from office for the cheap gas.

368 Lidane  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 8:50:05am

re: #364 sattv4u2

Failed deflection has failed.

As conservatives were so fond of reminding people for eight goddamn years, the POTUS doesn't directly influence oil and gas prices. That didn't suddenly change in 2008.

369 NJDhockeyfan  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 8:50:55am

re: #356 KT Smells like Roses and Rainbows

Iran seems to be pretty open about propping up Assad. I think it's only a matter of time before we see a really brutal crackdown from the regime. I doubt the West will respond with anything more than a strongly worded letter.

I have a feeling there is more than so-called Naval trainers on board.

370 Gus  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 8:51:13am

Thank you Jesus for the acceleration of the Iranian nuclear crisis which will lead to the stagnation of economic recovery which would have helped Obama in his re-election. Now that oil will go up and gasoline prices will rise Americans will finally see the failure that Obama really is and put a REAL AMERICAN in the White House once and for all!

Here's hoping things get worse with Iran!

371 Killgore Trout  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 8:51:47am

re: #364 sattv4u2

re: #361 erik_t

re: #362 Lidane

You're all correct

Gas prices were only an issue when GWB was protecting his Saudi Oil Overlords

Now that the price at the pump is nearly two times what they were when he left office ,,, crickets!!

We also have a worldwide food shortage now. Transporting food is going to get more expensive and drive prices up further.

372 BongCrodny  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 8:51:53am
373 Gus  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 8:52:14am

re: #371 KT Smells like Roses and Rainbows

We also have a worldwide food shortage now. Transporting food is going to get more expensive and drive prices up further.

Water is wet.

374 Killgore Trout  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 8:52:22am

re: #369 NJDhockeyfan

I have a feeling there is more than so-called Naval trainers on board.

Probably lots of ammunition too.

375 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 8:53:49am

I'm sick of the doom-and-gloom "what if" scenarios. If gas goes up to $5/gal, well, I'll have to implement some personal austerity measures to make sure my family is properly fed and cared for, but otherwise, I DON'T FUCKING CARE. It's not the end of the world. The only thing that keeps me getting out of bed in the morning is hope, and I refuse to give that up just because people like throwing around sensational headlines and speculate on doomsday.

376 NJDhockeyfan  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 8:54:21am

re: #374 KT Smells like Roses and Rainbows

Probably lots of ammunition too.

Just ammo? I'm thinking missiles and explosives. Dirty bombs are just around the corner too.

377 Gus  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 8:54:22am

Uh. Pressure Iran with sanctions the price of oil goes up. Attack Iranian nuclear facilities and the price of oil would go up.

378 Sheila Broflovski  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 8:54:38am

re: #371 KT Smells like Roses and Rainbows

We also have a worldwide food shortage now. Transporting food is going to get more expensive and drive prices up further.

BP and Exxon/Mobil profits and executive bonuses are higher than ever before!

379 Killgore Trout  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 8:55:04am

"We don't need oil. We ride the bus!"
/Ah, those were the days

380 Gus  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 8:55:11am

re: #378 Look At My Grandbaby!

BP and Exxon/Mobil profits and executive bonuses are higher than ever before!

All of those profits go to pay taxes.

//

381 Gus  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 8:55:31am

re: #379 KT Smells like Roses and Rainbows

"We don't need oil. We ride the bus!"
/Ah, those were the days

Drill here! Drill now!

382 Sheila Broflovski  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 8:56:13am

re: #380 Gus

All of those profits go to pay taxes.

//

And create jobs!1!

383 Decatur Deb  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 8:56:16am

Oil was 95.57 in 2008, before the economy hit bottom.

[Link: inflationdata.com...]

384 NJDhockeyfan  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 8:56:30am

re: #377 Gus

Uh. Pressure Iran with sanctions the price of oil goes up. Attack Iranian nuclear facilities and the price of oil would go up.

Iran makes a nuke the price of oil will go up. Iran fires one at Israel or Europe the price of oil goes up. Face it, oil is going up this summer no matter what happens.

385 Varek Raith  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 8:57:51am

re: #384 NJDhockeyfan

Iran makes a nuke the price of oil will go up. Iran fires one at Israel or Europe the price of oil goes up. Face it, oil is going up this summer no matter what happens.

Stop the hyperbole. First generation Iranian nukes will be large and unwieldy while being low yield. Not something they can place on a missile.

386 Killgore Trout  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 8:58:19am

re: #384 NJDhockeyfan

Iran makes a nuke the price of oil will go up. Iran fires one at Israel or Europe the price of oil goes up. Face it, oil is going up this summer no matter what happens.

Not if someone finally invents a solar panel that actually fucking works.

387 NJDhockeyfan  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 8:59:01am

re: #385 Somalia: Libertarian Paradise

Stop the hyperbole. First generation Iranian nukes will be large and unwieldy while being low yield. Not something they can place on a missile.

Not yet but they can surely pass them out to all their terrorist friends.

388 Lidane  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 8:59:08am

re: #384 NJDhockeyfan

And of course, the answer is invading Iran and nuking them into a parking lot before they can make that bomb, right?

389 sattv4u2  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 8:59:25am

re: #386 KT Smells like Roses and Rainbows

Not if someone finally invents a solar panel that actually fucking works.

Amongst other things, he's working on it

Image: Dr_Evil.jpg

390 NJDhockeyfan  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 8:59:35am

re: #386 KT Smells like Roses and Rainbows

Not if someone finally invents a solar panel that actually fucking works.

Can we get them by June?

391 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 9:00:03am

Ah, I love the smell of fear-mongering in the morning. Because nothing keeps a population's attention off of things like corporate greed and political corruption like a good scare. OOGA BOOGA.

392 Gus  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 9:00:08am

re: #384 NJDhockeyfan

Iran makes a nuke the price of oil will go up. Iran fires one at Israel or Europe the price of oil goes up. Face it, oil is going up this summer no matter what happens.

That's life in a country that consumes the most oil in the world and has an energy and transportation police/modes from the early 20th century.

393 Coracle  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 9:00:17am

A 25 mpg car driven 12,000 miles a year will require bout $700 more per year in gas cost if the price jumps from $3.50 to $5.00 per gallon instantaneously and stays there.

For a struggling family, or a fleet dependent business this is certainly a hit.

A carpool of 2 people in one of those cars with split fuel costs reduces total cost by half for each member of the carpool.

394 Gus  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 9:00:23am

re: #391 thedopefishlives

Ah, I love the smell of fear-mongering in the morning. Because nothing keeps a population's attention off of things like corporate greed and political corruption like a good scare. OOGA BOOGA.

Jawa report.

395 NJDhockeyfan  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 9:00:42am

re: #388 Lidane

And of course, the answer is invading Iran and nuking them into a parking lot before they can make that bomb, right?

Nah, lets let them blow up Tel Aviv before we stop them.

396 Gus  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 9:01:05am

Oh. Here we go.

397 Kronocide  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 9:02:39am

Jim Lakely is implying that Peter Gleick leaked the fake Heartland doc to distract and evade having a debate with Heartland.

Immensely pathetic.

398 Lidane  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 9:03:19am

re: #395 NJDhockeyfan

What could possibly go wrong with starting a third war? I mean, we've only been at war in Iraq and Afghanistan for a decade now. What's another country thrown in the mix?

399 NJDhockeyfan  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 9:03:45am

re: #393 Coracle

A 25 mpg car driven 12,000 miles a year will pay bout $700 more per year in gas cost if the price jumps from $3.50 to $5.00 per gallon instantaneously and stays there.

For a struggling family, or a fleet dependent business this is certainly a hit.

A carpool of 2 people in one of those cars with split fuel costs reduces total cost by half for each member of the carpool.

I spend close to $100 a week and so does my wife. I can't image what it will be like in 4 months if the experts are right.

400 Varek Raith  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 9:03:52am

North Korea sure is bad ass and threatening with their nukes.
And crazier than Iran to boot!

401 sattv4u2  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 9:04:23am

C'Mon folks

It's only a few more nickles in the price of a gallon of gas

and milk

and a loaf of bread

and heating oil

and airline tickets

and ,,,,

402 Decatur Deb  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 9:04:37am

re: #398 Lidane

What could possibly go wrong with starting a third war? I mean, we've only been at war in Iraq and Afghanistan for a decade now. What's another country thrown in the mix?

I'm sure Congress and the American people will line up to a man in support of the Commander in Chief.

403 Gus  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 9:04:38am

re: #398 Lidane

What could possibly go wrong with starting a third war? I mean, we've only been at war in Iraq and Afghanistan for a decade now. What's another country thrown in the mix?

Yeah but the price of oil would go down and a) things would get better in Iran and b) they probably wouldn't "rise from the ashes" into something even worse.

//

404 Coracle  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 9:04:56am

re: #399 NJDhockeyfan

I spend close to $100 a week and so does my wife. I can't image what it will be like in 4 months if the experts are right.

The math is easy, so you shouldn't have to imagine. Is a carpool or alternative transportation possible for either of you?

405 erik_t  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 9:07:16am

re: #395 NJDhockeyfan

Nah, lets let them blow up Tel Aviv before we stop them.

Ohhhh for fuck's sakes.

406 NJDhockeyfan  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 9:07:44am

re: #404 Coracle

The math is easy, so you shouldn't have to imagine. Is a carpool or alternative transportation possible for either of you?

No. I live in the mountains and I need my car all day as does my wife. I wish carpooling was a choice.

407 Lidane  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 9:07:57am

re: #403 Gus

Yeah but the price of oil would go down and a) things would get better in Iran and b) they probably wouldn't "rise from the ashes" into something even worse.

//

The war will pay for itself with Iraqi Iranian oil!

We'll be greeted as liberators!

408 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 9:09:09am

re: #364 sattv4u2

re: #361 erik_t

re: #362 Lidane

You're all correct

Gas prices were only an issue when GWB was protecting his Saudi Oil Overlords

Now that the price at the pump is nearly two times what they were when he left office ,,, crickets!!

[Link: news.consumerreports.org...]

Regular gasoline/gallon $3.11

409 Killgore Trout  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 9:09:26am

re: #406 NJDhockeyfan

No. I live in the mountains and I need my car all day as does my wife. I wish carpooling was a choice.

Outrageous. Next thing you're going to tell us is there isn't a subway station on your block.
/

410 Kronocide  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 9:09:42am

re: #405 erik_t

Ohhh for fuck's sakes.

It's easy, follow the MongoGeoPolik:

Iran Bad
Iran hate Israel
Iran want nuke
Iran nuke Israel
Nuke Iran, Fixed!

411 Varek Raith  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 9:10:20am

Merely blowing up some Iranian facilities (Some are too deep to strike conventionally) will only delay Iran.
But some of you keep telling yourselves that's all we'll have to do to stop them.

412 Coracle  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 9:11:04am

re: #406 NJDhockeyfan

No. I live in the mountains and I need my car all day as does my wife. I wish carpooling was a choice.

Sorry to hear it. Tighter/more expensive fuel supplies will shift 1st world demographics over time. Spikes like this will increase until and unless alternatives that don't rely on Mid-East volatility and Western speculation gain sufficient traction.

413 Varek Raith  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 9:12:16am

As for oil, face it, we are running low on access to the cheap stuff. It'll only get more expensive from here on out.

414 kirkspencer  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 9:12:17am

re: #364 sattv4u2

re: #361 erik_t

re: #362 Lidane

You're all correct

Gas prices were only an issue when GWB was protecting his Saudi Oil Overlords

Now that the price at the pump is nearly two times what they were when he left office ,,, crickets!!

Conveniently ignoring that the prices are still below what they were less than 6 months before he left office...

415 Decatur Deb  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 9:12:25am

re: #408 Bishop Cornwallis Gobbletot

[Link: news.consumerreports.org...]

Regular gasoline/gallon $3.11

So it's .29/gallon more than 3 yrs ago. But they're salivating for 5.00/gallon on Freep and Hot Air.

416 Lidane  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 9:13:50am

re: #415 Decatur Deb

So it's .29/gallon more than 3 yrs ago. But they're salivating for 5.00/gallon on Freep and Hot Air.

Because they're stupid.

John Cole was right. Barack Obama has been blessed with the stupidest enemies on the planet.

417 Eventual Carrion  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 9:13:52am

re: #14 Tigger2005

I mentioned the Heartland documents in a Facebook post, why haven't I got a letter? I feel left out.

You have to be irrelevant for them to notice.

418 sattv4u2  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 9:14:20am

re: #408 Bishop Cornwallis Gobbletot

[Link: news.consumerreports.org...]

Regular gasoline/gallon $3.11

Regular Gasoline $1.66 (December 2008)

[Link: news.consumerreports.org...]

419 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 9:14:49am

re: #415 Decatur Deb

So it's .29/gallon more than 3 yrs ago. But they're salivating for 5.00/gallon on Freep and Hot Air.

If it doesn't fit today's chosen narrative, it did not happen.

420 Varek Raith  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 9:15:10am

re: #418 sattv4u2

Regular Gasoline $1.66 (December 2008)

[Link: news.consumerreports.org...]

We had this thing, you may have heard of it, called the Financial Meltdown.

421 kirkspencer  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 9:15:15am

re: #413 Somalia: Libertarian Paradise

As for oil, face it, we are running low on access to the cheap stuff. It'll only get more expensive from here on out.

No and yes.

The sharp price right now appears to be due to speculation.

The underlying general climb, however, is going to be driven by scarcity, which isn't quite as bad as some might make you think. We are (probably and imo definitely) just past the peak. "Just past" is not falling off a cliff, but on a generally downward trend.

422 Lidane  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 9:16:06am

re: #420 Somalia: Libertarian Paradise

We had this thing, you may have heard of it, called the Financial Meltdown.

You mean that thing that Barack Obama was solely responsible for, and which had no other cause leading up to it?

///

423 Coracle  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 9:16:32am

re: #418 sattv4u2

Regular Gasoline $1.66 (December 2008)

[Link: news.consumerreports.org...]

You're using a gas price quote from a time when the US economy was in free-fall as a positive comparison to today. That will not get you far.

424 sattv4u2  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 9:16:33am

re: #420 Somalia: Libertarian Paradise

We had this thing, you may have heard of it, called the Financial Meltdown.

So in January 2008 the price was $3.11 then 11 months later because of the "melt down" the price in December went to $1.66

Cool!

425 Killgore Trout  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 9:16:42am

re: #411 Somalia: Libertarian Paradise

Merely blowing up some Iranian facilities (Some are too deep to strike conventionally) will only delay Iran.
But some of you keep telling yourselves that's all we'll have to do to stop them.

I don't think anyone's saying that. I suppose it's possible to completely destroy their program but it's unlikely. Once the Mullahs get nukes they become very entrenched and much more difficult to remove from power. A delay of a few years may be all it takes for the people to topple the regime. Right now their hold on power is fairly weak and getting weaker. The next revolution in Iran is going to be a secular one and the people of Iran want nothing to do with Hezbollah and don't really give a shit about Israel. They want fashionable clothes, porn and booze. A secular regime may still continue the nuclear progame but it would be much less problematic.

426 sattv4u2  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 9:17:10am

re: #423 Coracle

You're using a gas price quote from a time when the US economy was in free-fall as a positive comparison to today. That will not get you far.

I'm using the same source that the other poster used!

427 Kronocide  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 9:17:25am

re: #418 sattv4u2

Regular Gasoline $1.66 (December 2008)

[Link: news.consumerreports.org...]


You're cherry picking.
Can you explain why you chose to pick the lowest level for the several weeks before and after?

Do you know why the price dip?

428 erik_t  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 9:17:38am

Not sure if trolling or just clueless.

429 Lidane  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 9:18:03am

re: #425 KT Smells like Roses and Rainbows

Once the Mullahs get nukes they become very entrenched and much more difficult to remove from power.

Because they're not entrenched now, and removing them from power is easy.

430 kirkspencer  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 9:18:21am

re: #418 sattv4u2

Regular Gasoline $1.66 (December 2008)

[Link: news.consumerreports.org...]

Regular Gasoline $4.10 (June 2008).
http://news.consumerreports.org/cars/2008/06/gas-prices-4.html

431 Kronocide  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 9:18:41am

re: #426 sattv4u2

I'm using the same source that the other poster used!

You're dishonest. You chose the lowest price average during a major economic upheaval.

432 sattv4u2  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 9:19:10am

re: #427 Kronocide


You're cherry picking.
Can you explain why you chose to pick the lowest level for the several weeks before and after?

Do you know why the price dip?

I'm cherry picking!

Why did Bishop use that month? Perhaps because it was at THE highest at that time? Why not 10 months earlier,,, or 7 months later

but I'm cherry picking!

433 Coracle  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 9:19:17am

re: #426 sattv4u2

I'm using the same source that the other poster used!

Yes, but the point you're making is that the low in gas prices coincides not with economic prosperity, but with deep economic crisis. The country, and demand, was shutting down at the time. Is that what you'd like to see return?

434 Decatur Deb  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 9:19:21am

re: #424 sattv4u2

So in January 2008 the price was $3.11 then 11 months later because of the "melt down" the price in December went to $1.66

Cool!

With a little help from Reps. Boehner and Cantor we can make it happen again.

435 Kronocide  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 9:19:23am

re: #428 erik_t

Not sure if trolling or just clueless.

At this point, a distinction without a difference.

436 sattv4u2  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 9:19:27am

re: #431 Kronocide

see 432

437 erik_t  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 9:19:40am

re: #425 KT Smells like Roses and Rainbows

I don't think anyone's saying that. I suppose it's possible to completely destroy their program but it's unlikely. Once the Mullahs get nukes they become very entrenched and much more difficult to remove from power. A delay of a few years may be all it takes for the people to topple the regime. Right now their hold on power is fairly weak and getting weaker. The next revolution in Iran is going to be a secular one and the people of Iran want nothing to do with Hezbollah and don't really give a shit about Israel. They want fashionable clothes, porn and booze. A secular regime may still continue the nuclear progame but it would be much less problematic.

More bothersome to me is the transitional period of a nuclear Iran. Frankly, the mullahs aren't idiots, and I don't really fear them in control of nukes. Rather, I don't fear them in certain and perpetual control of nukes. To the extent that I fear a nuclear Iran, I fear them in uncertain and soon-ending control.

438 jamesfirecat  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 9:19:40am

re: #364 sattv4u2

re: #361 erik_t

re: #362 Lidane

You're all correct

Gas prices were only an issue when GWB was protecting his Saudi Oil Overlords

Now that the price at the pump is nearly two times what they were when he left office ,,, crickets!!

When GWB left office we were in the middle of economic free fall. That meant that there wasn't as much demand for gas, and thus the price went down. Now that our economy is recovering, the demand for gas is increasing and in turn so is the price. Simple supply and demand.

439 Gus  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 9:19:49am
440 sattv4u2  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 9:20:08am

And now comes the name calling!!

OUT!!!

441 Varek Raith  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 9:20:16am

re: #438 jamesfirecat

When GWB left office we were in the middle of economic free fall. That meant that there wasn't as much demand for gas, and thus the price went down. Now that our economy is recovering, the demand for gas is increasing and in turn so is the price. Simple supply and demand.

Why do Republicans hate the Free Market???

442 Kronocide  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 9:20:59am

re: #432 sattv4u2

I'm cherry picking!

Yes you are. And your response was to point the finger at somebody else:

He did it too!

443 Killgore Trout  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 9:21:17am

re: #429 Lidane

Because they're not entrenched now, and removing them from power is easy.

They almost lost it during the last uprising. The power structure of the regime is in place but they lost popular support a long time ago. Iran is cutting off internet access again because of the upcoming "elections" that they know the people are not going to like. The mullahs are afraid of their own people with good reason. They know the clock is running out, it's part of the reason they want nukes.

444 Kronocide  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 9:21:33am

re: #440 sattv4u2

And now comes the name calling!!

OUT!!!

Fucking pathetic, playing the victim.

445 Coracle  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 9:22:14am

re: #440 sattv4u2

And now comes the name calling!!

Not from me. But your departure does conveniently let you avoid answering my question.

446 Gus  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 9:22:16am

Seriously. You're going to bitch and moan about oil prices going up while demanding that Obama "nuke Iran" when you know damn well that that would lead to even higher oil prices. Can't have it both ways.

447 recusancy  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 9:24:24am

re: #446 Gus

Seriously. You're going to bitch and moan about oil prices going up while demanding that Obama "nuke Iran" when you know damn well that that would lead to even higher oil prices. Can't have it both ways.

Just tie a siphon to the end of the bombs. Problem solved!

448 Lidane  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 9:24:27am

re: #446 Gus

Seriously. You're going to bitch and moan about oil prices going up while demanding that Obama "nuke Iran" when you know damn well that that would lead to even higher oil prices. Can't have it both ways.

Oh come on. Everyone knows that starting another war in the Middle East will lead to lower gas prices. The war will be free and clear, paid for with all that oil we get from Iran to pay for the privilege of invading them.

It's no risk, all reward, and it helps America. Why do you hate America?

///

449 Varek Raith  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 9:25:09am

The calls for war get awfully quiet when confronted with inconvenient facts.
Hitting Iran will not be a cakewalk.
Gulf War 3 will likely ensue.
Unless, you think Iran will just sit back and take it.

450 Sheila Broflovski  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 9:26:01am

re: #448 Lidane

Oh come on. Everyone knows that starting another war in the Middle East will lead to lower gas prices. The war will be free and clear, paid for with all that oil we get from Iran to pay for the privilege of invading them.

It's no risk, all reward, and it helps America. Why do you hate America?

///

KICK THEIR ASS AND TAKE THEIR GAS!


America, fuck yeah!

451 Gus  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 9:26:05am

re: #449 Somalia: Libertarian Paradise

The calls for war get awfully quiet when confronted with inconvenient facts.
Hitting Iran will not be a cakewalk.
Gulf War 3 will likely ensue.
Unless, you think Iran will just sit back and take it.

Yeah. But this time you get to add Russia and China. Cakewalk! Right. So much bloviating and so little time.

452 Lidane  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 9:26:06am

re: #449 Somalia: Libertarian Paradise

The calls for war get awfully quiet when confronted with inconvenient facts.
Hitting Iran will not be a cakewalk.
Gulf World War 3 will likely ensue.
Unless, you think Iran will just sit back and take it.

FTFY

Don't forget, Iran is allied with Russia and China. I doubt they'd be happy and docile if we invaded Iran.

453 Varek Raith  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 9:26:12am

And just to be clear, I understand that we may have to strike them.
I just hate all the stupid talk.

454 Kronocide  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 9:26:20am

re: #446 Gus

Can't have it both ways.

Yes, can. Bi-Logic. Booyah!

(does O-Face with spinning Disco Chicken dance)

455 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 9:27:08am

re: #446 Gus

Seriously. You're going to bitch and moan about oil prices going up while demanding that Obama "nuke Iran" when you know damn well that that would lead to even higher oil prices. Can't have it both ways.

We want lower oil prices, we need to end the rampant speculation and obscene profiteering. Giving speculators a reason to drive up the price is only going to make things worse.

456 Gus  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 9:27:14am

re: #452 Lidane

FTFY

Don't forget, Iran is allied with Russia and China. I doubt they'd be happy and docile if we invaded Iran.

We have a consensus.

457 Decatur Deb  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 9:27:37am

We'll just put the costs of the war on our Chevron card, because deficits don't matter.

458 NJDhockeyfan  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 9:28:44am

re: #413 Somalia: Libertarian Paradise

As for oil, face it, we are running low on access to the cheap stuff. It'll only get more expensive from here on out.

I wish they would find a way to use natural gas in more abundant ways. We have lots of that.

459 Gus  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 9:29:07am

Meanwhile the Republicans are killing mass transit provisions in the transportation bill. They're also continually against any bullet train projects.

460 Kronocide  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 9:29:10am

Deficits matter when Democrats are in office. Otherwise, we have to defend freedom.

461 Kronocide  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 9:31:17am

re: #459 Gus

Meanwhile the Republicans are killing mass transit provisions in the transportation bill. They're also continually against any bullet train projects.

And they're against science. They want to sell more carbon based fuel.

Cheaper in the short term, very expensive in the long run. Many won't be able to afford it.

462 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 9:31:38am

re: #458 NJDhockeyfan

I wish they would find a way to use natural gas in more abundant ways. We have lots of that.

Technology exists to use LP/natural gas in combustion engines. We just don't because working with pressurized fuels is considerably more dangerous.

463 Obdicut  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 9:31:45am

re: #458 NJDhockeyfan

I wish they would find a way to use natural gas in more abundant ways. We have lots of that.

Natural gas still contributes to AGW; relying on it as a stopgap measure is fine, but relying on it long-term isn't.

And, of course, it'll run out.

464 Gus  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 9:32:11am

re: #461 Kronocide

And they're against science. They want to sell more carbon based fuel.

Cheaper in the short term, very expensive in the long run. Many won't be able to afford it.

Oil will always be a volatile market. Oil will continue to rise. Regardless of Iran or whatever.

465 Varek Raith  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 9:32:14am

re: #458 NJDhockeyfan

I wish they would find a way to use natural gas in more abundant ways. We have lots of that.

Short term, I agree.

466 Coracle  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 9:32:23am

Iraq : Afghanistan : Iran
Area 1 : 1.5 : 3.8
Pop. 1 : 1.1+ : 2.3+
GDP 1 : 0.13 : 4+
(2009 numbers)

A military conflict with Iran would make Afghanistan and Iraq together look like a schoolyard squabble. This is what the Iran hawks want.

467 Decatur Deb  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 9:32:34am

re: #460 Kronocide

Deficits matter when Democrats are in office. Otherwise, we have to defend freedom.

Might be good to have a automatic default Wartime Tax Rate, say about where it was on D-Day.

468 Varek Raith  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 9:32:55am

Ah, screw it.
I want a nuclear car.
There.

469 erik_t  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 9:33:06am

re: #463 Obdicut

Natural gas still contributes to AGW; relying on it as a stopgap measure is fine, but relying on it long-term isn't.

And, of course, it'll run out.

Natural gas reserves also constitute our helium reserves. And if you think peak fossil fuel is worrisome, hoo-boy lemme tell you about peak helium.

470 Varek Raith  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 9:33:35am

re: #469 erik_t

Natural gas reserves also constitute our helium reserves. And if you think peak fossil fuel is worrisome, hoo-boy lemme tell you about peak helium.

I did not know that.

471 erik_t  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 9:33:43am

re: #468 Somalia: Libertarian Paradise

Ah, screw it.
I want a nuclear car.
There.

Fine, but NO exports to Iran!

/

472 Lidane  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 9:34:03am

re: #459 Gus

Meanwhile the Republicans are killing mass transit provisions in the transportation bill. They're also continually against any bullet train projects.

Who needs socialist programs like mass transit and high speed rail or pinko commie shit like alternative energy? All we need to do is start more wars in the Middle East and our oil problems are solved!

///

473 Decatur Deb  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 9:34:35am

re: #469 erik_t

Natural gas reserves also constitute our helium reserves. And if you think peak fossil fuel is worrisome, hoo-boy lemme tell you about peak helium.

Peak Water will save us from Peak Helium.

474 Gus  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 9:34:57am

re: #472 Lidane

///

Middle East, Venezuela, Russia, China, Brazil...

There's a long list of countries they want to invade.

//

475 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 9:35:13am

re: #474 Gus

Middle East, Venezuela, Russia, China, Brazil...

There's a long list of countries they want to invade.

//

America for President of Earth!

476 Varek Raith  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 9:35:27am

re: #474 Gus

Middle East, Venezuela, Russia, China, Brazil...

There's a long list of countries they want to invade.

//

All with mountains.
Your argument is invalid.

477 Sheila Broflovski  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 9:35:46am

re: #475 thedopefishlives

America for President of Earth!

Team America, World Police!
Fuck Yeah!

478 Decatur Deb  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 9:36:09am

re: #476 Somalia: Libertarian Paradise

All with mountains.
Your argument is invalid.

God, I miss Herman C.

479 Gus  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 9:36:49am

re: #475 thedopefishlives

America for President of Earth!

...

But we don't want no one-world government! OK. One-world government is OK as long as that government is Murica! Fuck yeah. And not this liberal Murica we have now. One founded on Judeo-Christian traditions! To rule the world!

480 Varek Raith  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 9:36:58am

re: #478 Decatur Deb

God, I miss Herman C.

I still think he was trolling us all.

481 Decatur Deb  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 9:37:54am

re: #480 Somalia: Libertarian Paradise

I still think he was trolling us all.

He did seem to be having more fun than the others. BBL

482 Kronocide  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 9:38:06am

Occupy Rape meme is kicking up again:

Breitbart yelling at protesters: 'Why do you rape?'
Olbermann: 'BS, there's not a wave of rapes at Occupy'
Loesch: 'Oh yeah? Here's a police report of a sexual assault in Cleveland. Olbermann is WRONG! GOT HIM!'
Loesch: 'Who will condemn Occupy Rape. I'm waiting....'
Loesch: 'Who will condemn Occupy Rape. I'm waiting....'
Loesch: 'Who will condemn Occupy Rape. I'm waiting....'
Loesch: 'Who will condemn Occupy Rape. I'm waiting....'

Deja vu.

483 Killgore Trout  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 9:38:15am

I know the "liberal" instinct is that Iran isn't a serious problem and discussion of international current events is seen as fear mongering. But liberals should be more open about Iran discussions instead of reflexively opposing whatever they see as a wingnut topic. The regime in Iran executes homosexuals, rape victims, atheists and web designers. They are a threat to the region and their own people. Once they get nukes they become untouchable. A north Korea without nukes would have collapsed long ago. Obama and the Israelis are going to have to make a decision fairly soon about if they're going to let Iran get the bomb or take military action. I don't know what he's going to decide but it's not a wingnut issue. If there's a chance to delay the program for a few years to allow time for the mullahs to lose power it might be worth it. Once they get the bomb they are going to be around for a very long time and they aren't very nice people. Even worse than Republicans in my humble opinion.

485 BeenHereAwhile  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 9:39:00am

re: #188 EdDantes

I'm moving to Bakersfield, Ca. Anyone from Bakersfield?

Here's some music to play on the way.

"Grapevine" by Tom Russell from his album, "Hotwalker"

486 NJDhockeyfan  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 9:39:27am

re: #468 Somalia: Libertarian Paradise

Ah, screw it.
I want a nuclear car.
There.

Behold the Ford Nucleon.

487 Lidane  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 9:39:39am

re: #483 KT Smells like Roses and Rainbows

The regime in Iran executes homosexuals, rape victims, atheists and web designers.

Sounds like the GOP base's idea of paradise, considering the rhetoric they've been throwing around lately.

488 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 9:40:15am

re: #483 KT Smells like Roses and Rainbows

Or how about I just oppose anything whose sole purpose is to engender instinctual fear. I refuse to live with a cloud over my head, wondering when the next Big Bad Thing is going to ruin my life.

489 erik_t  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 9:40:42am

re: #483 KT Smells like Roses and Rainbows

I know the "liberal" instinct is that Iran isn't a serious problem and discussion of international current events is seen as fear mongering. But liberals should be more open about Iran discussions instead of reflexively opposing whatever they see as a wingnut topic. The regime in Iran executes homosexuals, rape victims, atheists and web designers. They are a threat to the region and their own people. Once they get nukes they become untouchable. A north Korea without nukes would have collapsed long ago. Obama and the Israelis are going to have to make a decision fairly soon about if they're going to let Iran get the bomb or take military action. I don't know what he's going to decide but it's not a wingnut issue. If there's a chance to delay the program for a few years to allow time for the mullahs to lose power it might be worth it. Once they get the bomb they are going to be around for a very long time and they aren't very nice people. Even worse than Republicans in my humble opinion.

Bullshit. They stood for forty-odd years without them, through much more troubling times (internally and externally) than they've seen in the last three or four years.

We need to be intelligent and assertive with regards to our nuclear proliferation policy, both with Iran and with others, but let's not oversell the problem.

490 Varek Raith  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 9:41:18am

re: #486 NJDhockeyfan

Behold the Ford Nucleon.

GTF outta my way, I got half a kiloton in the trunk!!!

491 Obdicut  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 9:41:20am

re: #483 KT Smells like Roses and Rainbows

I know the "liberal" instinct is that Iran isn't a serious problem and discussion of international current events is seen as fear mongering.

According to...?

But liberals should be more open about Iran discussions instead of reflexively opposing whatever they see as a wingnut topic. The regime in Iran executes homosexuals, rape victims, atheists and web designers.

Yep. The regime is fucking awful. That's why they need to be ousted. That's why pointing out that bombing a country tends to make people support its current government is reasonable.

They are a threat to the region and their own people. Once they get nukes they become untouchable.

They're pretty much untouchable now, if you mean in terms of outright conquering them.

A north Korea without nukes would have collapsed long ago.

Really? Why didn't it collapse during the many, many years it lacked nukes?

Once they get the bomb they are going to be around for a very long time and they aren't very nice people.

Can you explain how having nukes increases your ability to stay in power domestically?

Obviously it makes them harder to deal with on the international scale, but how does it increase the Mullahs hold on power?

492 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 9:41:35am

re: #483 KT Smells like Roses and Rainbows

I would trust Obama on this. I would not trust any R on this.

493 nines09  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 9:42:35am

re: #485 BeenHereAwhile

Here's a gem.

494 Lidane  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 9:43:03am

re: #489 erik_t

We need to be intelligent and assertive with regards to our nuclear proliferation policy, both with Iran and with others, but let's not oversell the problem.

Yeah, this.

495 Killgore Trout  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 9:43:03am

re: #488 thedopefishlives

Or how about I just oppose anything whose sole purpose is to engender instinctual fear. I refuse to live with a cloud over my head, wondering when the next Big Bad Thing is going to ruin my life.

That's should prevent you from a serious discussion of the issues involved. I also think it's a strawman to believe that anyone considering military action against Iran is fearmongering. You can bet that Obama and Hilary are giving the issue very serious thought. It's not fear and I don't see fear from people trying to discussion the issue here.

496 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 9:43:25am

re: #483 KT Smells like Roses and Rainbows

I know the "liberal" instinct is that Iran isn't a serious problem and discussion of international current events is seen as fear mongering. But liberals should be more open about Iran discussions instead of reflexively opposing whatever they see as a wingnut topic. The regime in Iran executes homosexuals, rape victims, atheists and web designers. They are a threat to the region and their own people. Once they get nukes they become untouchable. A north Korea without nukes would have collapsed long ago. Obama and the Israelis are going to have to make a decision fairly soon about if they're going to let Iran get the bomb or take military action. I don't know what he's going to decide but it's not a wingnut issue. If there's a chance to delay the program for a few years to allow time for the mullahs to lose power it might be worth it. Once they get the bomb they are going to be around for a very long time and they aren't very nice people. Even worse than Republicans in my humble opinion.

Your concern is noted. Perhaps there is an problem with how the issue is being presented for discussion?

497 Kronocide  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 9:43:41am

re: #492 Representative of Bank of Nikolai

I would trust Obama on this. I would not trust any R on this.

R's seem to act stupidly.

Understatementus Absurdum

498 Coracle  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 9:43:47am

re: #483 KT Smells like Roses and Rainbows

Frankly, I don't think there's any disagreement in the US political sphere that Iran is an oppressive and dangerous regime. I doubt they become any more untouchable with nukes than without them, though. War with Iran would be an order of magnitude greater in global impact than Iraq/Afghanistan. regardless of the venue.

As for NK, its collapse or lack of it had nothing to do with their nuclear capability and everything to do with economic (and possibly other) propping up by China.

499 erik_t  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 9:43:51am

re: #491 Obdicut

Can you explain how having nukes increases your ability to stay in power domestically?

Obviously it makes them harder to deal with on the international scale, but how does it increase the Mullahs hold on power?

This point is a mystery to me as well. One can construct suggestions that a populace might be more fearful of a government with nukes, but this seems very much a fringe matter.

500 Varek Raith  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 9:44:31am

Pakistan is stable.
...
..
.

501 BongCrodny  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 9:45:08am

re: #493 Are You A Mike Huckabee Burned Down House?

Here's a gem.

Second favorite Dwight Yoakum song.

I love "Turn It On, Turn It Up, Turn Me Loose" more than mere words can describe.

502 Obdicut  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 9:45:24am

re: #492 Representative of Bank of Nikolai

I would trust Obama on this. I would not trust any R on this.

The big unanswered question is if the mullahs are actually insane religious fanatics, or just asshole theocrats who want to stay in power. If it's the former, the threat that they might use any nukes is very, very real.

But the best-case scenario in the world of a bombing attack-- completely destroying their nuclear infrastructure-- increases the mullahs hold on Iran, and doesn't stop them from developing a nuke, just buys some time. And they may very well be pursuing the purchase of nukes through other channels.

The plan can never depend on the enemy not having something. Because then, if they actually do have that, you're fucked. Iran might buy a working nuclear warhead on the black market. It's entirely within the bounds of possibility. All the talk about preventing them from developing nukes is, to me, missing the point of figuring out what we do if they do get a nuke.

503 erik_t  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 9:45:32am

re: #492 Representative of Bank of Nikolai

I would trust Obama on this. I would not trust any R on this.

Certainly none of any national prominence... I don't claim to know every Republican.

504 Kronocide  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 9:45:35am

re: #489 erik_t

We need to be intelligent and assertive with regards to our nuclear proliferation policy, both with Iran and with others, but let's not oversell the problem.

You need to oversell the problem if you lack the skill or intelligence to create a good argument. Which explains the sloppy byproducts of democracy.

505 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 9:45:44am

re: #495 KT Smells like Roses and Rainbows

That's should prevent you from a serious discussion of the issues involved. I also think it's a strawman to believe that anyone considering military action against Iran is fearmongering. You can bet that Obama and Hilary are giving the issue very serious thought. It's not fear and I don't see fear from people trying to discussion the issue here.

I do. Everyone is worried about what Iran will do, how it will affect the oil market or Middle East stability or what have you. I'm not worried, I'm not afraid, and if we want to have logical and rational discussion about the issue, that's fine. I refuse to go full paranoid and start seeing bogeymen around every corner.

506 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 9:47:01am

re: #502 Obdicut

Liberal nonsense. Too much nuance.

507 iossarian  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 9:47:20am

re: #502 Obdicut

[...] missing the point of figuring out what we do if they do get a nuke.

The problem is, that part requires thinking, which goes against the bipartisan nature of US politics, excluding as it does one of the two major parties from the process.

508 Gus  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 9:48:49am

re: #496 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste

Your concern is noted. Perhaps there is an problem with how the issue is being presented for discussion?

You mean like the daily morning onslaught of "ominous" Middle East news?

509 Kronocide  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 9:49:54am

re: #506 Representative of Bank of Nikolai

Liberal nonsense. Too much nuance.

Nuance is for girlie menz.

510 Obdicut  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 9:50:06am

re: #443 KT Smells like Roses and Rainbows

They almost lost it during the last uprising. The power structure of the regime is in place but they lost popular support a long time ago. Iran is cutting off internet access again because of the upcoming "elections" that they know the people are not going to like. The mullahs are afraid of their own people with good reason. They know the clock is running out, it's part of the reason they want nukes.

Again: How does having nukes help them control their own populace?

511 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 9:50:27am

re: #509 Kronocide

Nuance is for girlie menz.

And latte-sipping, baguette-chewing Frenchies.

512 Obdicut  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 9:51:59am

The USSR, despite holding the most gigantic nuclear arsenal in the world, toppled.

513 erik_t  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 9:52:05am

re: #502 Obdicut

The big unanswered question is if the mullahs are actually insane religious fanatics, or just asshole theocrats who want to stay in power. If it's the former, the threat that they might use any nukes is very, very real.

Well, more than that, it's not entirely clear that the mullahs would be in complete control of a nuclear device in the first place. The power structure in Iran is pretty murky. If Crazed Chief Secular Executive starts frothing about attacking eg. Israel without the support of the mullahs, how confident are we that no factions of the Iranian military will support him? How about the revolutionary guards, which is an entirely separate organization? Or the local militias?

Mao and Stalin had nukes, and I won't suggest that any of the Iranian powers that be can hold a candle to them. The world managed, but partially because we knew exactly who we were dealing with. It's very hard to have meaningful and long-lasting negotiations and political agreements with such a fragmented political/military structure.

514 Killgore Trout  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 9:53:17am

re: #491 Obdicut

Can you explain how having nukes increases your ability to stay in power domestically?

Obviously it makes them harder to deal with on the international scale, but how does it increase the Mullahs hold on power?

Here's a good article: What would happen if Iran had the bomb? (+video)

Yet analysts and diplomats note that Iran does have many reasons to develop at least a "breakout" capability – the ability to assemble a bomb quickly should it want to. Tehran has watched modern history unfold around it and no doubt has drawn its own conclusions. Acquiring nuclear weapons helped preserve regimes in North Korea and Pakistan, for instance. But in Iraq and Libya, two nonnuclear countries, Saddam Hussein and Muammar Qaddafi were deposed. The Iranian media, in fact, tut-tutted last year that Mr. Qaddafi's fatal error was relinquishing his secret nuclear weapons program in 2004.

"If I was an Iranian national security planner, I would want nuclear weapons," Bruce Riedel, a 30-year veteran of the CIA now at the Brookings Institution in Washington, said in January.

Basically it would greatly complicate ant international or foreign support for a popular uprising.It gives the mullahs greater capability to escalate conflicts in other areas to create problems for Western powers. It also opens up the possibility of giving proxy groups like hamas or Hezbollah materials for dirty bombs etc, that they wouldn't be able to get on their own. Since Hezbollah is now operating more internationally (with Iranian assistance) this becomes a more serious concern.

515 ProGunLiberal  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 9:53:43am

re: #502 Obdicut

Considering the scale of problems the Iranian Government is facing, I say just wait.

I think they will collapse before a Nuke is completed.

516 ProGunLiberal  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 9:55:10am

re: #515 ProGunLiberal

I should mention that, to me, "just wait" means continuing sanctions.

517 NJDhockeyfan  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 9:57:40am

re: #510 Obdicut

Again: How does having nukes help them control their own populace?

It doesn't. The Mullahs and Dinnerjacket want to cause Armageddon ( the 12th Imam is the reason) and Israel is first on the list of countries to attack with nukes. I doubt they give a rats ass about their own people.

518 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 9:57:58am

We do know that Iranian powers-that-be said many times that Israel should be wiped off the map (and no, it's not just a mistranslation). However, how much is this serious and how much of it is just a red meat for the masses? They purport to care about Palestinians, but surely nuking Israel will directly affect the Palestinians in a bad way. So is this a "plan", or is this just an aggressive rhetoric?

519 Killgore Trout  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 9:58:01am

re: #515 ProGunLiberal

Considering the scale of problems the Iranian Government is facing, I say just wait.

I think they will collapse before a Nuke is completed.

I think that's part of the reason why Iran is shutting down internet access for the upcoming elections. The West surely realizes that everything would be much easier if the regime collapses soon and will surely be giving as much help as we possibly can. The elections may be the last chance to make it happen.

520 erik_t  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 9:58:04am

re: #514 KT Smells like Roses and Rainbows

Basically it would greatly complicate ant international or foreign support for a popular uprising.It gives the mullahs greater capability to escalate conflicts in other areas to create problems for Western powers. It also opens up the possibility of giving proxy groups like hamas or Hezbollah materials for dirty bombs etc, that they wouldn't be able to get on their own. Since Hezbollah is now operating more internationally (with Iranian assistance) this becomes a more serious concern.

I don't see a credible scenario in which the West could engage in any real supporting actions in an Iranian uprising. Western Europe wasn't able to do much without US support even in Libya, and any US involvement would be socially and politically toxic.

521 ReamWorks SKG  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 9:58:21am

The "Occupy" movement has come to my backyard!


http://cupertino.patch.com/articles/occupy-movement-comes-to-cupertino

And how do they want "more money for education" (in the wealthiest community college districts in the state)? By taxing the poor! Yes, these kids want to tax the poorest people disproportionately by raising the sales tax and the alcohol/cigarette sin tax.

522 Charles Johnson  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 9:58:29am

By the way -- that tweet I posted above from Jim Lakely is pretty good evidence that there are people at the Heartland Institute who behave extremely unprofessionally. If one of the arguments that the strategy memo was faked is that the language seems unprofessional and almost juvenile, just take a look at that tweet from Heartland's official spokesman.

523 Gus  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 9:58:36am

Lab-grown meat is first step to artificial hamburger

Dutch scientists have used stem cells to create strips of muscle tissue with the aim of producing the first lab-grown hamburger later this year.

524 S.D.  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 9:58:45am

At the risk of them threatening 'legal' action, IMO, Repeat, IMO, the Heartland Institute and their director of communications are, IMO, Morons.

525 Obdicut  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 9:58:54am

re: #514 KT Smells like Roses and Rainbows

I'm really unsure about this meme that North Korea's nukes helped preserve the regime there. Can you explain that assertion at all?

And you realize the article you're citing says this, right?

In fact, say analysts and nonproliferation experts who have studied the effect of the bomb on countries, coexisting with a nuclear-armed Iran – or at least a nuclear-capable Iran – may well be possible, even inevitable, whether a military strike delays that outcome or not.

Analysts say Iran is not an irrational, suicidal actor that can't be deterred. Nor do they believe it is determined to destroy Israel at all costs. A recent Israeli think tank simulation of "the day after" an Iranian nuclear test came to the same conclusion: that nuclear annihilation will not automatically result.

And:

Yet American intelligence agencies agree that Tehran hasn't yet decided to go for a nuclear bomb – and that even if it chose to, it would take years to create one and the means to deliver it. Israeli intelligence is also reported to have reached the same conclusion.

and:

A nuclear Iran would be destabilizing, but it would not threaten the existence of the US or Israel, he says – a view echoed by a number of senior Israeli security officials. Former Mossad chief Meir Dagan called an Israeli strike against Iran "the stupidest thing I've ever heard."

The article does assert that having nukes is a good deterrent against being invaded by the US. I'd agree. I'd say that Iran already doesn't worry about being invaded by the US, since it'd be profoundly stupid of us to do.

The above statements about the foolishness of a strike on Iran, the low likelihood of them using a nuke, etc. are all well-made and compellingly written in the article. Did you read them, too, or just the bit about how it'd help stymie an invasion by the US?

526 Obdicut  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 9:59:17am

re: #517 NJDhockeyfan

It doesn't. The Mullahs and Dinnerjacket want to cause Armageddon ( the 12th Imam is the reason) and Israel is first on the list of countries to attack with nukes. I doubt they give a rats ass about their own people.

How do you know this? Are you psychic or something?

527 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 9:59:26am

re: #517 NJDhockeyfan

It doesn't. The Mullahs and Dinnerjacket want to cause Armageddon ( the 12th Imam is the reason) and Israel is first on the list of countries to attack with nukes. I doubt they give a rats ass about their own people.

How many of the Mullahs want to cause Armageddon? Ahmadinejad is not exactly the top guy, and he has troubles now, so that's neither here, nor there.

528 erik_t  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 9:59:34am

re: #517 NJDhockeyfan

It doesn't. The Mullahs and Dinnerjacket want to cause Armageddon ( the 12th Imam is the reason) and Israel is first on the list of countries to attack with nukes. I doubt they give a rats ass about their own people.

You're very much more confident of what the Iranians actually mean than I am. Shit, I'm not even confident of what major US presidential candidates actually think or mean, and I speak the same native tongue and grew up in the same culture.

529 Decatur Deb  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 9:59:51am
530 Gus  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 10:00:01am

Stemcells?! What? FETUS FOOD!

531 Obdicut  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 10:00:35am

re: #522 Charles Johnson

By the way -- that tweet I posted above from Jim Lakely is pretty good evidence that there are people at the Heartland Institute who behave extremely unprofessionally. If one of the arguments that the strategy memo was faked is that the language seems unprofessional and almost juvenile, just take a look at that tweet from Heartland's official spokesman.

I was actually thinking the same thing, but the language in the memo is still too mustache-twirling for me to believe it-- calling yourself anti-climate is just bone-stupid. Maybe if it was between two people, but as something sent out to a broad audience-- I just don't think they seem themselves as anti-climate. I think they would have said anti-warmist or something. Anyway, speculation.

There's a rumor the NYT will unmask the anonymous donor tomorrow.

532 ProGunLiberal  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 10:00:40am

re: #519 KT Smells like Roses and Rainbows

Your missing the thing that WE CAN'T GIVE HELP!!

Giving help will kill the opposition movement. Especially in the case of the US, where the Iranians still remember what we did to Mossadegh.

533 Sheila Broflovski  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 10:01:22am
534 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 10:01:37am

re: #522 Charles Johnson

By the way -- that tweet I posted above from Jim Lakely is pretty good evidence that there are people at the Heartland Institute who behave extremely unprofessionally. If one of the arguments that the strategy memo was faked is that the language seems unprofessional and almost juvenile, just take a look at that tweet from Heartland's official spokesman.

The argument is not that the language is unprofessional or juvenile, but that it doesn't fit the mindset of a denier, or, at least, that it's not what a denier would confess to. Deniers don't think of themselves as dissuading the teaching of science, undermining research and they don't call themselves anti-climate.

535 Killgore Trout  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 10:02:18am

re: #520 erik_t

I don't see a credible scenario in which the West could engage in any real supporting actions in an Iranian uprising.

Sure there are lots of ways. Providing intelligence to protest leaders, satellite phones so they can communicate and coordinate. Facilitating coordination between groups that might not otherwise cooperate. Bribing generals, officers or police to give up, switch sides or just stay home. The possibilities are endless.

536 Decatur Deb  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 10:02:39am

re: #533 Look At My Grandbaby!

PETAburgers!

Want to tangle with the kashrut decisions on that stuff?

537 Kronocide  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 10:03:27am

re: #522 Charles Johnson

Did you see this? Lakely implying Gleick leaked Heartland doc to get out of 'debate.'

These people are really juvenile.

538 Sheila Broflovski  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 10:03:43am

re: #536 Decatur Deb

Want to tangle with the kashrut decisions on that stuff?

Not. Going. There. Ever.

539 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 10:03:49am

re: #534 Representative of Bank of Nikolai

The argument is not that the language is unprofessional or juvenile, but that it doesn't fit the mindset of a denier, or, at least, that it's not what a denier would confess to. Deniers don't think of themselves as dissuading the teaching of science, undermining research and they don't call themselves anti-climate.

That's what we think of them.

540 Decatur Deb  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 10:03:49am

re: #535 KT Smells like Roses and Rainbows

Sure there are lots of ways. Providing intelligence to protest leaders, satellite phones so they can communicate and coordinate. Facilitating coordination between groups that might not otherwise cooperate. Bribing generals, officers or police to give up, switch sides or just stay home. The possibilities are endless.

Yes--and they don't include sudden noises.

541 erik_t  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 10:03:49am

re: #535 KT Smells like Roses and Rainbows

Sure there are lots of ways. Providing intelligence to protest leaders, satellite phones so they can communicate and coordinate. Facilitating coordination between groups that might not otherwise cooperate. Bribing generals, officers or police to give up, switch sides or just stay home. The possibilities are endless.

Sure, but I don't see how presence of nukes plays into any of that at all. I assumed we were talking about actual military intervention.

542 Killgore Trout  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 10:04:00am

re: #525 Obdicut

Did you read them, too, or just the bit about how it'd help stymie an invasion by the US?

Yes, it's a very good article. That's why I posted it.

543 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 10:04:15am

re: #529 Decatur Deb

Mmmm. Cow-free steak.

I'm sure the interpreters of what is or is not kashrut are having a field day with this development.

544 Killgore Trout  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 10:05:29am

re: #541 erik_t

Sure, but I don't see how presence of nukes plays into any of that at all. I assumed we were talking about actual military intervention.

I don't think we'll see open military support for an uprising in Iran. Aircover, ground troops, etc would all be too problematic.

545 Sheila Broflovski  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 10:06:15am

re: #543 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste

I'm sure the interpreters of what is or is not kashrut are having a field day with this development.

So far they have totally ignored this phenomemon. No field day in sight.

546 erik_t  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 10:06:51am

re: #544 KT Smells like Roses and Rainbows

Fully agreed, and the existence or lack of an Iranian nuclear capability does nothing to change that. Which goes back to the original point - it would not 'greatly complicate any international or foreign support for a popular uprising.' At least not in any way that I see.

Off on a run - BBL.

547 ReamWorks SKG  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 10:07:22am

re: #543 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste

This is already being thoroughly discussed. Many Rabbis believe it can be Kosher. I've sat for hours in Chabad-run Talmud classes debating whether meat produced in the Star Trek replicator can be Kosher. (Jews are _fun_.)

Google this issue and you'll find plenty.

For example

[Link: rabbimichaelsamuel.com...]

[Link: www.thejewishweek.com...]

548 NJDhockeyfan  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 10:07:22am

re: #526 Obdicut

How do you know this? Are you psychic or something?

It's not a secret or anything. Ahmadinejad even mentions the 12th Imam every time he speaks at the UN.

549 Obdicut  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 10:07:37am

re: #542 KT Smells like Roses and Rainbows

Yes, it's a very good article. That's why I posted it.

Great. So, many of the things said in that article, about how stupid it would be to bomb Iran, about how the bomb wouldn't really be that useful to them, about how they're not currently pursing a nuclear program-- seem like the kind of statements you mock and deride when they're brought up here.

Can you explain the disconnect there? If you want to have a serious discussion on the topic, why aren't you more receptive to counter-argument?

And, again, the article-- like you-- asserts that North Korea's regime stayed in power in part because they had nukes. I really don't get how that works. Can you explain it at all? North Korea existed for decades with nukes, and they're supported by China, making their personal nukes somewhat moot. So, what's the deal with saying their nukes keep them in power there?

550 Sheila Broflovski  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 10:08:03am

The last time I was at Whole Foods I saw a bunch of "dairy free" "cheese" slices on display. I thought, "Hey I can totally haz a cheesburger!" but then I took a closer look at all the ingredients of these artificial jeeze slices and decided to pass on it.

551 Obdicut  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 10:08:22am

re: #548 NJDhockeyfan

It's not a secret or anything. Ahmadinejad even mentions the 12th Imam every time he speaks at the UN.

And all the mullahs, as well? Do you even know who all the mullahs in Iran are?

552 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 10:08:54am

A couple of days ago I gave the memo 50/50 chance of being authentic. Now I would leave 10% max. Give-away language + grave mistakes + weird tech details + outright denial of this particular memo = very suspect document.

553 erik_t  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 10:09:00am

re: #548 NJDhockeyfan

It's not a secret or anything. Ahmadinejad even mentions the 12th Imam every time he speaks at the UN.

Well, shit, then clearly we should start a war.

/

554 Shiplord Kirel  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 10:09:17am

In contrast to Heartland and their nefarious work, we have some real science.

Today is the 50th anniversary of John Glenn's historic flight in Friendship 7.

There are commemorations around the country. Best of all, Mr. Glenn is still here to take part.

555 kirkspencer  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 10:10:45am

re: #513 erik_t

Well, more than that, it's not entirely clear that the mullahs would be in complete control of a nuclear device in the first place. The power structure in Iran is pretty murky. If Crazed Chief Secular Executive starts frothing about attacking eg. Israel without the support of the mullahs, how confident are we that no factions of the Iranian military will support him? How about the revolutionary guards, which is an entirely separate organization? Or the local militias?
(snip)

(my emphasis)

No. No, it is not murky. In fact it's actually got some surprisingly strong checks and balances against almost all the offices. It's just they allow an active King, which can (and unfortunately often does) lead to a despot.

556 Obdicut  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 10:12:11am

re: #555 kirkspencer

Um, Iran doesn't have a king.

557 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 10:12:49am

re: #556 Obdicut

Um, Iran doesn't have a king.

"So he lied to me?" //

558 Gus  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 10:13:15am

re: #554 Winston Smith, Fox News Moderator

In contrast to Heartland and their nefarious work, we have some real science.

Today is the 50th anniversary of John Glenn's historic flight in Friendship 7.

There are commemorations around the country. Best of all, Mr. Glenn is still here to take part.

First man American in space was a Democrat. ;)

559 Obdicut  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 10:13:37am

re: #557 Representative of Bank of Nikolai

NSFW

560 Gus  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 10:13:41am

American. Fixed.

561 Lidane  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 10:13:48am

re: #529 Decatur Deb

Mmmm. Cow-free steak.

Why not? We've already got meat-free hamburgers, considering the crap that McDonald's tries to pass off as food. =P

562 Gus  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 10:14:19am

First man in space was a Communist! Second man and first American space was a Democrat!

Checkmate!

;)

563 kirkspencer  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 10:14:47am

re: #556 Obdicut

Um, Iran doesn't have a king.

Literally true. Functionally, that is what the "Supreme Leader of Iran" is.

564 allegro  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 10:14:50am

re: #550 Look At My Grandbaby!

The last time I was at Whole Foods I saw a bunch of "dairy free" "cheese" slices on display. I thought, "Hey I can totally haz a cheesburger!" but then I took a closer look at all the ingredients of these artificial jeeze slices and decided to pass on it.

Dairy free cheese, just like fat free cheese, is not food. Nothing in it was ever food. It's soft yellow plastic. Or something. But it isn't food.

565 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 10:16:33am

re: #559 Obdicut

I was thinking more in the vein of:

Stan seeks out Token, expecting everything to be better now since his dad apologized, yet Token is still mad, saying, "Jesse Jackson is not the emperor of black people!" To which Stan replies, "He told my dad he was..."

566 Obdicut  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 10:16:46am

re: #563 kirkspencer

Literally true. Functionally, that is what the "Supreme Leader of Iran" is.

"King" isn't a functional title. It's got no inherent meaning. And since Iran is a theocracy, using 'king' is at best, misleading, since king doesn't tend to imply religious leadership.

567 Killgore Trout  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 10:19:09am

re: #546 erik_t

Fully agreed, and the existence or lack of an Iranian nuclear capability does nothing to change that.

The diplomats and intell sources for that article disagree. Here's a recent example from last week that illustrates the point.

WRAPUP 2-Iran threatens to hit any country used to attack its soil
This threat doesn't mean much with conventional weapons and so much western military presence in the region but a nuclear armed Iran with a regime on the brink of collapse may carry out the threat. It greatly complicates outside assistance for a popular uprising.

568 Achilles Tang  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 10:19:12am

I haven't read all 564 posts above, but I'm wondering if these threats about even discussing this issue have been made to the NYT, and presumably others, not to mention foreign papers like the Guardian.

They are really shooting themselves in the head with this it seems.

569 Obdicut  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 10:20:07am

re: #567 KT Smells like Roses and Rainbows

The diplomats and intell sources for that article disagree.

You mean 'some of the diplomats and intel sources'.

Lots of others in the article disagree with the scenario you're presenting.

570 mumbly-joe  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 10:20:23am

re: #290 Obdicut

I am indeed a Bob Dole reference! At least it started out that way, but since becoming my internet pseudonym of choice, it's almost morphed into more of a Joe Lieberman reference, completely with Droopy Dog avatar, when I get around to creating one. And it's good to be here: I've been a long time reader, first-time caller.

571 Obdicut  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 10:20:37am

re: #568 Red Sea Desjardini Tang

I haven't read all 564 posts above, but I'm wondering if these threats about even discussing this issue have been made to the NYT, and presumably others, not to mention foreign papers like the Guardian.

They are really shooting themselves in the head with this it seems.

And as Sergey pointed out, the denier blogs are all hosting this stuff too-- defensively analyzing it rather than critically-- and I doubt they've received take-down notices.

572 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 10:21:28am

re: #518 Representative of Bank of Nikolai

We do know that Iranian powers-that-be said many times that Israel should be wiped off the map (and no, it's not just a mistranslation). However, how much is this serious and how much of it is just a red meat for the masses? They purport to care about Palestinians, but surely nuking Israel will directly affect the Palestinians in a bad way. So is this a "plan", or is this just an aggressive rhetoric?

I strongly doubt that damaging the Palestinians will be a hold on Iran's hand. As for whether they'd actually use a newfound nuke against Israel--I can see several plausible scenarios, a couple where they do and several where they don't.

I am deeply grateful not to have to be the person who figures out which of those is more likely.

573 Obdicut  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 10:21:36am

re: #570 mumbly-joe

I am indeed a Bob Dole reference! At least it started out that way, but since becoming my internet pseudonym of choice, it's almost morphed into more of a Joe Lieberman reference, completely with Droopy Dog avatar, when I get around to creating one. And it's good to be here: I've been a long time reader, first-time caller.

Welcome. And I love Droopy Dog.

574 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 10:21:51am
They brought here a Negro from Africa, who climbed down from the tree, and he is making their policy. You see who defends the interests of the alliance? Africa! Negroes!

Ex-President of Moldova V. Voronin, leader of the Communist Party of Moldova, about John Onoje.

575 Mattand  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 10:22:15am

Dear Heartland Corporation:

Hey, 1st Amendment here. Go fuck yourself. Hugs and kisses.

576 ReamWorks SKG  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 10:22:18am

I have a trip to Israel booked for April so I hope they get this all resolved by then!

577 Eventual Carrion  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 10:22:34am

re: #469 erik_t

Natural gas reserves also constitute our helium reserves. And if you think peak fossil fuel is worrisome, hoo-boy lemme tell you about peak helium.

In a munchkin voice no doubt ...

578 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 10:22:42am

re: #527 Representative of Bank of Nikolai

How many of the Mullahs want to cause Armageddon?

I don't know the answer to this question.

And that is the question, all right.

579 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 10:24:22am

re: #548 NJDhockeyfan

It's not a secret or anything. Ahmadinejad even mentions the 12th Imam every time he speaks at the UN.

Problem is, Dinnerjacket is not the man behind the curtain. He's the man telling you to pay no attention to the man behind the curtain. (Granted, those were the same guy in TWOO, but you get my drift.)

580 Obdicut  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 10:24:31am

re: #578 SanFranciscoZionist

If they do, they probably don't actually need a nuke. Just a couple ICBMs, even sans warheads.

581 Achilles Tang  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 10:24:34am

re: #551 Obdicut

And all the mullahs, as well? Do you even know who all the mullahs in Iran are?

Who cares who they are? The little fart didn't invent this phrase all by himself, it's part of the religious DNA.

I'm half expecting Santorum to start his speeches hoping for the rapture just to show how his religion is better (like we had to show since the 50's it is better than atheism).

582 Killgore Trout  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 10:25:52am

Another good one from CSM...
Is Iran rational enough for MAD?

From the 1940s until 1990, the threat of 'mutual assured destruction' terrorized the superpowers into avoiding nuclear war. Would MAD work if Iran gets the Bomb?

583 Obdicut  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 10:27:46am

re: #582 KT Smells like Roses and Rainbows

Are you able to explain how having nukes has helped North Korea's regime stay in power, by the way? I'm pretty curious about that. I don't really see much difference in the way that they stayed in power pre-and-post nuke.

584 NJDhockeyfan  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 10:28:09am

re: #579 SanFranciscoZionist

Problem is, Dinnerjacket is not the man behind the curtain. He's the man telling you to pay no attention to the man behind the curtain. (Granted, those were the same guy in TWOO, but you get my drift.)

That would be Khamenei I assume and he's just as obsessed with the Mahdi as dinnerjacket is.

585 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 10:30:31am

re: #580 Obdicut

If they do, they probably don't actually need a nuke. Just a couple ICBMs, even sans warheads.

True. Hell, if all they want is a Doomsday scenario, they could probably pull it off right now.

But that doesn't mean they can't both pursue the nukes and have a Doomsday scenario in mind.

586 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 10:31:25am

re: #553 erik_t

Well, shit, then clearly we should start a war.

/

Once we resurrect Reagan since *we* mention him all the time.
//

587 Obdicut  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 10:32:58am

re: #585 SanFranciscoZionist

Yep. It's entirely possible. And they might announce tomorrow that they've purchased a very fine nuclear warhead on the black market, and start screaming "how do you like us now?"

The longer the mullahs stay in power, the more trivial it will be for them to build the nuke. Assuming that we actually manage to engineer our way around AGW-- which is highly unlikely, so most of this conversation is moot anyway-- technology marches on. Building nukes will become easier and easier, especially if the world relies more and more on nuclear energy. They will eventually get nuclear capability, if they stay in power indefinitely.

What's being asserted that really confuses me is that having nukes will somehow help to keep them in power.

588 Gus  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 10:33:56am

Any conclusions yet? I have mine:

• Israel does not have the hardware for carrying out an effective strike.
• Any strike by Israel would require arms sales to Israel from the USA which won't happen this year.
• Any strike by the USA will not occur this year.
• Sanctions will continue in place.
• Crude oil will rise.
• The are no plans and never were any plans for an invasion.

589 Lidane  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 10:35:04am
590 NJDhockeyfan  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 10:35:41am

Top U.N. inspectors in Iran talks on atom bomb accusations

TEHRAN (Reuters) - Senior U.N. inspectors arrived in Iran on Monday to push for transparency about its disputed nuclear program and several European states halted purchases of Iranian oil as part of Western moves to pile pressure on a defiant Tehran.

Iran denies Western accusations that it is covertly seeking the means to build nuclear weapons and has again vowed no nuclear retreat in recent weeks, but also voiced willingness to resume negotiations with world powers without preconditions.

The five-member International Atomic Energy Agency team, led by chief IAEA inspector Herman Nackaerts, planned two days of meetings in another attempt to get answers from Iran regarding intelligence suggesting its declared civilian nuclear energy program is a facade for researching ways to make atom bombs.

Nackaerts said on departure from Vienna that he wanted "concrete results" from the talks. His delegation was expected to seek, among other things, to question Iranian nuclear scientists and visit the Parchin military base believed to have been used for high-explosive tests relevant to nuclear warheads.

But Foreign Minister Ali Akbar Salehi dampened speculation about increased IAEA access when he told the student news agency ISNA that the agency officials would not be going to any nuclear sites. "No. Their work has just begun," Salehi said.

591 Obdicut  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 10:35:53am

re: #589 Lidane

I think Santorum may be enough of a nutjob to actually believe Obama is a Muslim.

592 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 10:36:12am

re: #568 Red Sea Desjardini Tang

I haven't read all 564 posts above, but I'm wondering if these threats about even discussing this issue have been made to the NYT, and presumably others, not to mention foreign papers like the Guardian.

They are really shooting themselves in the head with this it seems.

Intended solely for internet havens that can potentially be bullied, not for places that will be expected to have their own legal departments. Those will be dealt with via other methods - mainly involving the pocketbook.

593 Gus  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 10:36:22am

re: #588 Gus

Any conclusions yet? I have mine:

• Israel does not have the hardware for carrying out an effective strike.
• Any strike by Israel would require arms sales to Israel from the USA which won't happen this year.
• Any strike by the USA will not occur this year.
• Iran still does not have nuclear weapons.
• Sanctions will continue in place.
• Crude oil will rise.
• The are no plans and never were any plans for an invasion.

594 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 10:37:12am

re: #570 mumbly-joe

I am indeed a Bob Dole reference! At least it started out that way, but since becoming my internet pseudonym of choice, it's almost morphed into more of a Joe Lieberman reference, completely with Droopy Dog avatar, when I get around to creating one. And it's good to be here: I've been a long time reader, first-time caller.

Welcome hatchling.

"Bob Dole says that Bob Dole deserves to be a Lizard!"
;)

595 Gus  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 10:37:15am

Oops. I accidentally posted that again. Anyway, added one more line to it, "Iran still does not have nuclear weapons."

Until then. Sleep tight.

596 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 10:37:17am

re: #581 Red Sea Desjardini Tang

Who cares who they are? The little fart didn't invent this phrase all by himself, it's part of the religious DNA.

Well, the return of the Twelfth Imam is a belief of some Shiites, yes, but the mere existence of that belief, nor even that Dinnerjacket flaunts his faith in it, doesn't tell us what Iran is really going to do, especially since it's not clear to me that there's any traditional belief that the end of times can actually be forced by human behavior. I could be wrong. I know that all the believers ride all over hell and gone with white and black flags, and Jesus gets involved, and then peace and goodness and all sorts of other stuff rains down all over.

Like Armageddon, it's something you can't draw a direct line from 'belief in', to 'therefore the believer will do'. You have to take it into account, but you have to take all the other stuff that goes on into account too.

597 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 10:37:58am

re: #584 NJDhockeyfan

That would be Khamenei I assume and he's just as obsessed with the Mahdi as dinnerjacket is.

I don't know if that tells us what he will do.

598 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 10:38:58am

re: #579 SanFranciscoZionist

Problem is, Dinnerjacket is not the man behind the curtain. He's the man telling you to pay no attention to the man behind the curtain. (Granted, those were the same guy in TWOO, but you get my drift.)

But TMOQ might have a nuke, and that makes all the difference!
/

599 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 10:39:04am

re: #596 SanFranciscoZionist

Like Armageddon, it's something you can't draw a direct line from 'belief in', to 'therefore the believer will do'. You have to take it into account, but you have to take all the other stuff that goes on into account too.

[Link: www.huffingtonpost.com...]

I for one, as an Iranian Twelver, have no doubt that if the Mahdi is among us, he would agree that the so-called Islamic republic has indeed constituted a great disservice to Islam. Chief among the teachings of Islam is religious tolerance, and by defying this teaching, the leaders of the allegedly Islamic Republic of Iran have created a situation that will ultimately blow up in their faces. It might not happen today. It might not happen next year or even in 50 years. But the time for a new revolution (green, blue, pink or yellow) is certainly approaching. The only question that remains is when.

600 Obdicut  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 10:39:15am

re: #597 SanFranciscoZionist

I don't know if that tells us what he will do.

I've recently become obsessed with baking bread.

This tell us I am likely to bake a lot of bread, get my mom to send me a sourdough culture from San Francisco, and get flour fucking everywhere.

601 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 10:39:56am

re: #598 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste

But TMOQ might have a nuke, and that makes all the difference!
/

It could do.

I dismiss absolutely nothing at this point.

602 Interesting Times  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 10:40:02am

Global warming deniers make Iran stronger. And certain GOPers border on committing treason with their attempt to prevent Obama from ever using the emergency oil reserves.

Why does the GOP hate America and want to make its enemies stronger?

603 AK-47%  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 10:40:50am

High gasoline prices will help the GOP. So count on them doing everything in their power, be it through speculation or political pressure, to keep pump prices high so they can then lay the blame at Obama's doorstep for not doing more to develop "domestic" (i.e. Canadian) sources of oil.

604 Gus  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 10:41:54am

re: #603 Ministry of Fairness and Balance

High gasoline prices will help the GOP. So count on them doing everything in their power, be it through speculation or political pressure, to keep pump prices high so they can then lay the blame at Obama's doorstep for not doing more to develop "domestic" (i.e. Canadian) sources of oil.

I.e. Keystone XL; fracking; bomb Iran; etc.

605 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 10:41:59am

re: #599 Representative of Bank of Nikolai

[Link: www.huffingtonpost.com...]

I had a wonderful conversation with a very excitable Iranian at a bus stop. (He saw the Israel flags my group had, and made a beeline over to discuss everything that's wrong with modern Iran.)

Muslim, but he, and a lot of Persians, talk like Zoroastrianism is still deeply rooted. All about the forces of light and the forces of darkness, and great struggles--which, of course, you can see embedded in some of the Twelfther stuff as well.

606 AK-47%  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 10:43:21am

re: #604 Gus

I.e. Keystone XL; fracking; bomb Iran; etc.

and more offshore drilling!

607 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 10:43:27am

re: #600 Obdicut

I've recently become obsessed with baking bread.

This tell us I am likely to bake a lot of bread, get my mom to send me a sourdough culture from San Francisco, and get flour fucking everywhere.

True, but deep religious beliefs are usually a tad more relevent to people's political behavior than their baking habits.

I can't dismiss the religious aspect of all this, any more than I can make an open-and-shut case out of it. This is a political situation--dense, sticky, and full of mysterious little crunchy bits.

608 Varek Raith  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 10:44:04am

re: #607 SanFranciscoZionist

True, but deep religious beliefs are usually a tad more relevent to people's political behavior than their baking habits.

I can't dismiss the religious aspect of all this, any more than I can make an open-and-shut case out of it. This is a political situation--dense, sticky, and full of mysterious little crunchy bits.

McNuggets?

609 Obdicut  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 10:44:56am

re: #607 SanFranciscoZionist

True, but deep religious beliefs are usually a tad more relevent to people's political behavior than their baking habits.

Oh, I was just trying to interject some levity.

I can't dismiss the religious aspect of all this, any more than I can make an open-and-shut case out of it. This is a political situation--dense, sticky, and full of mysterious little crunchy bits.

Yep. They really might be insane crazy bastards and immediately nuke Israel if they get their hands on one. Which is part of why I really want them out of power. Because if they're crazy enough to do that, then nuclear weapons are hardly the only thing available to them to do insanely horrible things.

610 Gus  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 10:47:28am

So next time civilization thinks about creating another demonic weapon maybe they should think of the long term consequences. And if in the future if and when they develop some kind of doomsday machine that can make wide swaths of the Earth vanish don't complain to me about it "falling into the wrong hands."

611 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 10:48:12am

re: #610 Gus

So next time civilization thinks about creating another demonic weapon maybe they should think of the long term consequences.

Excuse me, have you MET civilization?

612 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 10:48:35am

re: #610 Gus

So next time civilization thinks about creating another demonic weapon maybe they should think of the long term consequences. And if in the future if and when they develop some kind of doomsday machine that can make wide swaths of the Earth vanish don't complain to me about it "falling into the wrong hands."

OK.

613 Obdicut  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 10:49:11am

re: #610 Gus

The next demonic weapon created will probably be an attempt to make a better post-it note.

614 Gus  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 10:49:26am

re: #612 Representative of Bank of Nikolai

OK.

Cool. Of course that won't happen. We're constantly developing new and improved ways of killing people.

615 Lidane  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 10:50:51am

OT, but I'm not sure how to take this. A company I interviewed for right before Christmas and never heard back from just started following me on Twitter.

Odd.

616 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 10:51:30am

re: #615 Lidane

OT, but I'm not sure how to take this. A company I interviewed for right before Christmas and never heard back from just started following me on Twitter.

Odd.

RUN!

617 Gus  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 10:51:40am

re: #611 SanFranciscoZionist

Excuse me, have you MET civilization?

I have. We're all here on this pale blue dot orbiting the Sun.

618 Varek Raith  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 10:52:03am

re: #610 Gus

So next time civilization thinks about creating another demonic weapon maybe they should think of the long term consequences. And if in the future they develop some kind of doomsday machine that can make wide swaths of the Earth vanish don't complain to me about it "falling into the wrong hands."

No.
I like my doomsday weapons thankyouverymuch.

619 Gus  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 10:52:36am

re: #615 Lidane

OT, but I'm not sure how to take this. A company I interviewed for right before Christmas and never heard back from just started following me on Twitter.

Odd.

Lame ass surveillance?

620 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 10:52:55am

re: #617 Gus

I have. We're all here on this pale blue dot orbiting the Sun.

"Civilization"? Is that like one of those petri dish cultures? //

621 Gus  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 10:53:11am

You know they're developing autonomous UAVs right?

622 Varek Raith  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 10:53:55am

re: #621 Gus

You know they're developing autonomous UAVs right?

BOOM

623 Gus  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 10:54:16am

It's all fine though! As long as they "don't fall into the wrong hands!"

624 Varek Raith  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 10:55:37am

re: #623 Gus

It's all fine though! As long as they "don't fall into the wrong hands!"

More boom

1 ounce of antimatter contains 1.22 megatons of destructive force. This is less of a yield than the most powerful H-bomb exploded to date.

625 Gus  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 10:55:47am

re: #622 Somalia: Libertarian Paradise

BOOM

Dr. Frankenstein

626 Varek Raith  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 11:00:04am

re: #625 Gus

Dr. Frankenstein

The plus is that, at current rates, we can only make 1-10 nanograms of it a year.

627 Sheila Broflovski  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 11:00:29am

re: #607 SanFranciscoZionist

True, but deep religious beliefs are usually a tad more relevent to people's political behavior than their baking habits.

My religious beliefs are tied to my deeply held baking habits. In fact my religious beliefs are an excuse to fuel my bread baking addiction.

CHALLAH!

628 Varek Raith  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 11:01:48am

re: #627 Look At My Grandbaby!

My religious beliefs are tied to my deeply held baking habits. In fact my religious beliefs are an excuse to fuel my bread baking addiction.

CHALLAH!

I like bread.
Can I have some???

629 labman57  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 11:04:33am

So are the documents fake or were they stolen? Or are they stolen fakes?
Heartland seems to be taking a shotgun approach to their damage control efforts in order to discredit LGF and pretend that they don't have egg on their faces.

Of course, their dilemma is that if they claim the documents were stolen, then they are implicitly admitting to their authenticity. If they claim that they are fake, then they risk being discredited even further should additional evidence surface supporting the veracity of the original documents.

630 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 11:04:36am

re: #628 Somalia: Libertarian Paradise

I like bread.
Can I have some???

The eternally hungry young evil overlord :)

631 Gus  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 11:05:54am

re: #630 Representative of Bank of Nikolai

The eternally hungry young evil overlord :)

Gluttony!

632 Obdicut  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 11:06:33am

re: #628 Somalia: Libertarian Paradise

I like bread.
Can I have some???

Don't just challah at her like that.

633 Varek Raith  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 11:06:43am

re: #629 labman57

So are the documents fake or were they stolen? Or are they stolen fakes?
Heartland seems to be taking a shotgun approach to their damage control efforts in order to discredit LGF and pretend that they don't have egg on their faces.

Of course, their dilemma is that if they claim the documents were stolen, then they are implicitly admitting to their authenticity. If they claim that they are fake, then they risk being discredited even further should additional evidence surface supporting the veracity of the original documents.

As far as I know, they say only 1 was a fake. The rest they said were real.
Though, I think they walked back their admission that they were real.

634 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 11:07:50am

re: #629 labman57

So are the documents fake or were they stolen? Or are they stolen fakes?
Heartland seems to be taking a shotgun approach to their damage control efforts in order to discredit LGF and pretend that they don't have egg on their faces.

Of course, their dilemma is that if they claim the documents were stolen, then they are implicitly admitting to their authenticity. If they claim that they are fake, then they risk being discredited even further should additional evidence surface supporting the veracity of the original documents.

Um. Read their press release. Or relevant LGF threads. This has been done here over and over again. Their claims are fully consistent, if evasive.

635 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 11:09:04am

re: #633 Somalia: Libertarian Paradise

As far as I know, they say only 1 was a fake. The rest they said were real.
Though, I think they walked back their admission that they were real.

They won't authenticate them in the sense that they won't say that nothing has been changed. Otherwise, they do claim the documents (except 1) were stolen.

636 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 11:09:23am

re: #605 SanFranciscoZionist

I had a wonderful conversation with a very excitable Iranian at a bus stop. (He saw the Israel flags my group had, and made a beeline over to discuss everything that's wrong with modern Iran.)

Muslim, but he, and a lot of Persians, talk like Zoroastrianism is still deeply rooted. All about the forces of light and the forces of darkness, and great struggles--which, of course, you can see embedded in some of the Twelfther stuff as well.

One gets the impression that there is a subset of the human psyche that wants to live in interesting times.

637 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 11:11:04am

re: #610 Gus

So next time civilization thinks about creating another demonic weapon maybe they should think of the long term consequences. And if in the future if and when they develop some kind of doomsday machine that can make wide swaths of the Earth vanish don't complain to me about it "falling into the wrong hands."

This sounds like the standard GOP-ish pre-not-apology for something that has already been done. What device did you turn over to Varek for "safe keeping"?
>:E

638 Achilles Tang  Mon, Feb 20, 2012 12:17:07pm

re: #596 SanFranciscoZionist

Well, the return of the Twelfth Imam is a belief of some Shiites, yes, but the mere existence of that belief, nor even that Dinnerjacket flaunts his faith in it, doesn't tell us what Iran is really going to do, especially since it's not clear to me that there's any traditional belief that the end of times can actually be forced by human behavior. I could be wrong. I know that all the believers ride all over hell and gone with white and black flags, and Jesus gets involved, and then peace and goodness and all sorts of other stuff rains down all over.

Like Armageddon, it's something you can't draw a direct line from 'belief in', to 'therefore the believer will do'. You have to take it into account, but you have to take all the other stuff that goes on into account too.

One of their council has been quoted as saying he didn't care what happened to Iran, as long as Islam won. It's "Insha'Allah" with a bang.

Whether they think they can bring it about deliberately is a moot point because any situation can be rationalized so as to claim that circumstances dictate the time has come, beyond their control.


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