Dow Goes Over 13000 for the First Time Since 2008

Bad news for the Republican Party, good news for everyone else
US News • Views: 23,850

I don’t know — it seems like Barack Obama’s nefarious scheme to turn America into a socialist hellscape and destroy the world economy isn’t working too well: Dow Pierces 13000.

The Dow broke 13000 just before 11:30 a.m. EST on Tuesday, fell back and then did it again just after noon. The index was trading just shy of the mark in midday trading, up 40 points, or 0.3%, at 12990. The Dow last traded at the 13000 level on May 20, 2008. The last time the Dow closed above that level was May 19, 2008.

The Standard & Poor’s 500-stock index was up 5.9 points, or 0.4%, to 1367. The Nasdaq Composite added 11 points, or 0.4%, to 2963.

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84 comments
1 Lidane  Tue, Feb 21, 2012 9:46:39am

Worst. Socialist. EVER.

2 thatthatisis  Tue, Feb 21, 2012 9:48:55am

Unemployment is down. Stock market up. Housing beginning to improve a little.

It's a plot, I tells ya!

3 dragonfire1981  Tue, Feb 21, 2012 9:50:12am

I await with excitement the right wing spin responses to this one.

4 PhillyPretzel  Tue, Feb 21, 2012 9:50:22am

The economy is looking better. ::: doing the happy dance ::: Oh wait this is supposed to be bad???

5 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Tue, Feb 21, 2012 9:50:40am

We need to ruin the economy, otherwise the socialist Muslim Kenyan will be re-elected and will ruin the country!

6 Bulworth  Tue, Feb 21, 2012 9:50:53am

Next on Faux News: Some say Obama's Department of Labor cronies are manipulating the Dow for political advantage.

Also, too: ACORN!

7 Petero1818  Tue, Feb 21, 2012 9:51:12am

Its just the market responding to Santorum's new front runner status. True Conservatives have that effect.///

8 Decatur Deb  Tue, Feb 21, 2012 9:52:52am

re: #3 dragonfire1981

I await with excitement the right wing spin responses to this one.

Already been spun--it only took the TP House of Reps a year to turn things around.

9 dragonfire1981  Tue, Feb 21, 2012 9:55:25am

Good grief, does anyone check out Sean Hannity's Twitter feed? He darned near gets into flamewars with people on that thing.

10 dragonfire1981  Tue, Feb 21, 2012 9:56:18am

Live Mardi Gras cam from New Orleans:

[Link: www.icorp.net...]

11 Bulworth  Tue, Feb 21, 2012 9:56:50am

re: #5 The Tsarist Guitarist How do I do the wingnut text? Thanks

12 erik_t  Tue, Feb 21, 2012 9:57:07am

This is certainly not bad news, although it's probably the least important economic indicator in the world to me. Probably most valuable just as a tool for modifying consumer confidence.

13 Lidane  Tue, Feb 21, 2012 9:57:17am

re: #11 Bulworth

How do I do the wingnut text? Thanks

[ wingnut ] [ /wingnut ]

Remove the spaces.

14 Bulworth  Tue, Feb 21, 2012 9:57:32am

re: #8 Decatur Deb

Already been spun--it only took the TP House of Reps a year to turn things around.

It's all due to the Ryan Medicare and tax plan they passed.... //

15 lawhawk  Tue, Feb 21, 2012 9:57:36am

Considering that the markets closed the week of March 2, 2009 at 6,626, we've all but doubled the DJIA since that 5 year low by closing in on and around 13,000 (and the S&P 500 already doubled that 3/2/09 low; and NASDAQ is also more than double its 5-year low). That's pretty remarkable considering how far we've come and the ongoing challenges to the markets going forward - a sluggish real estate market, European debt woes, etc.

I think most of us would take that kind of solid growth if it means that we're building on a solid foundation. Getting more people into jobs would go a long way. It also means that many people who had dollar cost averaged through the entire period would have made money in the process. Lots of it.

16 Bulworth  Tue, Feb 21, 2012 9:58:06am

re: #13 Lidane

[ wingnut ] [ /wingnut ]

Remove the spaces.

Thanks.

17 Flounder  Tue, Feb 21, 2012 9:58:20am

I am reading a book "One Train Later" an autobiography of Andy Summers writtern in 2006. I found it funny, he states "This is the eighties, the era of money and excess. Reagan is king and will triple the national debt, support apartheid, back Saddam Hussein, fantasize about Star Wars, support Central American death squads, and trade arms for hostages."

18 Nervous Norvous  Tue, Feb 21, 2012 9:58:40am

re: #9 dragonfire1981

Considering he's a flaming asshole, Im not surprised

19 lawhawk  Tue, Feb 21, 2012 10:01:27am

re: #3 dragonfire1981

The spin would be that the markets would have done this sooner had the Obama stimulus package not been enacted. We would have gotten to this point sooner.

That's about the sum total of the spin about the economy these days - they can't say that the economy completely sucks, because it doesn't (and there are regional pockets where the economy does suck because of the ongoing real estate woes), so they're forced to deal with the claim that things would have been even better had someone else been in office and/or no stimulus package. The counterargument can be that but for the GOP refusal to go even bigger with the stimulus , the recession could have been thwarted by an even greater degree - spending more (Krugman's position btw) would have resulted in faster bounceback than anticipated under the Obama stimulus. At a time when everyone didn't quite realize how bad the economy was, the stimulus didn't go far enough.

20 Bulworth  Tue, Feb 21, 2012 10:02:55am

re: #19 lawhawk

It's all our great awesome GOP governors!

21 Fart Knocker  Tue, Feb 21, 2012 10:03:36am

I think solid progress on the Greek debt bailout played a significant role as well.

22 Political Atheist  Tue, Feb 21, 2012 10:04:12am

I am confused. In Europe, austerity is the game saving economic plan. But here it is argued we must spend, spend, spend to fix our economy. 66% more than we did if you ask Krugman.

How is this dichotomy explained?

23 Flounder  Tue, Feb 21, 2012 10:04:39am

Could it be, SATAN?!

24 Fart Knocker  Tue, Feb 21, 2012 10:05:17am

re: #22 Daniel Ballard

I am confused. In Europe, austerity is the game saving economic plan. But here it is argued we must spend, spend, spend to fix our economy. 66% more than we did if you ask Krugman.

How is this dichotomy explained?

People ask me how you make money only making change. The answer is "Volume"./Change Bank SNL ad/
//

25 Obdicut  Tue, Feb 21, 2012 10:05:25am

re: #22 Daniel Ballard

First of all, it's only some places in Europe.

Second of all, austerity is wrong in Europe as well, as can be seen in the UK pretty easily.

Greece's austerity crap won't matter a damn if they can't fix their problem with tax-dodgers.

26 Fart Knocker  Tue, Feb 21, 2012 10:06:11am

re: #25 Obdicut

First of all, it's only some places in Europe.

Second of all, austerity is wrong in Europe as well, as can be seen in the UK pretty easily.

Greece's austerity crap won't matter a damn if they can't fix their problem with tax-dodgers.

Same problem in Italy, folks just don't pay their taxes.

27 Coracle  Tue, Feb 21, 2012 10:06:22am

re: #22 Daniel Ballard

I am confused. In Europe, austerity is the game saving economic plan. But here it is argued we must spend, spend, spend to fix our economy. 66% more than we did if you ask Krugman.

How is this dichotomy explained?

Our method is rather more free of national strikes.

28 Decatur Deb  Tue, Feb 21, 2012 10:06:23am

re: #19 lawhawk

The spin would be that the markets would have done this sooner had the Obama stimulus package not been enacted. We would have gotten to this point sooner.

That's about the sum total of the spin about the economy these days - they can't say that the economy completely sucks, because it doesn't (and there are regional pockets where the economy does suck because of the ongoing real estate woes), so they're forced to deal with the claim that things would have been even better had someone else been in office and/or no stimulus package. The counterargument can be that but for the GOP refusal to go even bigger with the stimulus , the recession could have been thwarted by an even greater degree - spending more (Krugman's position btw) would have resulted in faster bounceback than anticipated under the Obama stimulus. At a time when everyone didn't quite realize how bad the economy was, the stimulus didn't go far enough.

In other words, they're incapable of learning.

29 erik_t  Tue, Feb 21, 2012 10:08:05am

re: #22 Daniel Ballard

I am confused. In Europe, austerity is the game saving economic plan. But here it is argued we must spend, spend, spend to fix our economy. 66% more than we did if you ask Krugman.

How is this dichotomy explained?

Our method is actually working?

30 HappyWarrior  Tue, Feb 21, 2012 10:09:28am

Oh no the economy is improving, our entire narrative is doomed!

31 Coracle  Tue, Feb 21, 2012 10:11:11am

re: #30 HappyWarrior

Oh no the economy is improving, our entire narrative is doomed!

Actually not so much. I'm hoping I can power my house, perhaps my neighborhood, by hooking up a generator to take advantage of the spin that's torquing up.

32 kirkspencer  Tue, Feb 21, 2012 10:11:19am

re: #22 Daniel Ballard

I am confused. In Europe, austerity is the game saving economic plan. But here it is argued we must spend, spend, spend to fix our economy. 66% more than we did if you ask Krugman.

How is this dichotomy explained?

Because austerity is not a game saving economic plan.

33 Kragar  Tue, Feb 21, 2012 10:11:38am

Its obviously a cunning plan to lull us into a false sense of security so he can destroy us in his second term.

34 PhillyPretzel  Tue, Feb 21, 2012 10:12:02am

I am taking peeks at the WSJ title page and it looks like it might hit 13000 again. Yay.

35 Political Atheist  Tue, Feb 21, 2012 10:12:32am

re: #25 Obdicut

And yet Ireland is really coming along. After austerity.

Just a few places? Just enough places to threaten the Euro itself. That's huge IMO.
Are you really saying the austerity plans will fail and drive Europe into a much worse economy? The IMF and their people are all wrong?

36 lawhawk  Tue, Feb 21, 2012 10:13:15am

re: #22 Daniel Ballard

The situation can be explained because our economy doesn't quite work or look the way those in Europe that are suffering the most from the debt crisis. Greece has structural issues that differ from the US situation.

37 Jimmah  Tue, Feb 21, 2012 10:13:30am
socialist hellscape

Awesome!

38 Political Atheist  Tue, Feb 21, 2012 10:15:20am

I notice gold is up, indicating more appeal as a safe haven here and internationally even as the Dow hits the record. Rather mixed messages going on here.

39 Coracle  Tue, Feb 21, 2012 10:15:32am

re: #35 Daniel Ballard

And yet Ireland is really coming along. After austerity.

But things are starting to look worse in Portugal. It's apples to potatoes to grapes.

40 Obdicut  Tue, Feb 21, 2012 10:16:06am

re: #35 Daniel Ballard

And yet Ireland is really coming along. After austerity.

Just a few places? Just enough places to threaten the Euro itself. That's huge IMO.

I'm saying not everywhere in Europe did the austerity plan, and, by and large, those that didn't are doing better than those that did.

Are you really saying the austerity plans will fail and drive Europe into a much worse economy? The IMF and their people are all wrong?

I'm saying in the UK, that's already happening. Yes, I'm really saying this.

[Link: www.nytimes.com...]

Why is this shocking to you?

Do you understand what I mean about Greece needing to solve the tax-dodging problem?

41 Decatur Deb  Tue, Feb 21, 2012 10:16:29am

re: #30 HappyWarrior

Oh no the economy is improving, our entire narrative is doomed!

Oh well, we'll always have condoms !!!

42 Political Atheist  Tue, Feb 21, 2012 10:17:20am

re: #36 lawhawk

The situation can be explained because our economy doesn't quite work or look the way those in Europe that are suffering the most from the debt crisis. Greece has structural issues that differ from the US situation.

Reality seems to fly in the face of some of the most prominent economic arguments we hear these days. Perhaps because they spent so much more than us to begin with austerity is the best plan. But that is exactly where many want us to go to fix this.

43 PhillyPretzel  Tue, Feb 21, 2012 10:19:25am

re: #38 Daniel Ballard
Yes, gold is up but some folks are already talking up diamonds as a "safe" refuge.

44 garhighway  Tue, Feb 21, 2012 10:20:59am

re: #42 Daniel Ballard

Reality seems to fly in the face of some of the most prominent economic arguments we hear these days. Perhaps because they spent so much more than us to begin with austerity is the best plan. But that is exactly where many want us to go to fix this.

Do you have a thesis you wish to advance?

45 Decatur Deb  Tue, Feb 21, 2012 10:21:08am

re: #43 PhillyPretzel

Yes, gold is up but some folks are already talking up diamonds as a "safe" refuge.

Putting all my money in oil--just bought 5 quarts of 20W50.

47 jaunte  Tue, Feb 21, 2012 10:22:27am

re: #43 PhillyPretzel

Yes, gold is up but some folks are already talking up diamonds as a "safe" refuge.

Talk about sequestered carbon!

48 Obdicut  Tue, Feb 21, 2012 10:24:11am

re: #46 Daniel Ballard

I'm sorry, I don't see where those articles conflict. Can you tell me?

49 RogueOne  Tue, Feb 21, 2012 10:24:31am

re: #45 Decatur Deb

20W50? What kind of leaky sieve are you driving?

I'm watching exxon (+1.95%) and chevron (+1.59%) go up and downish. I wonder if they've taken your buy into consideration yet?

50 PhillyPretzel  Tue, Feb 21, 2012 10:24:47am

re: #45 Decatur Deb
Putting all my money in oil--just bought 5 quarts of 20W50.
For your vehicle?

51 Decatur Deb  Tue, Feb 21, 2012 10:25:43am

re: #50 PhillyPretzel

Putting all my money in oil--just bought 5 quarts of 20W50.
For your vehicle?

re: #49 RogueOne

20W50? What kind of leaky sieve are you driving?

I'm watching exxon (+1.95%) and chevron (+1.59%) go up and downish. I wonder if they've taken your buy into consideration yet?

73 LandRover. And that's the recommended oil when new.

52 Political Atheist  Tue, Feb 21, 2012 10:26:35am

re: #44 garhighway

Do you have a thesis you wish to advance?

Only that certain arguments are not apparently playing out as they have been described they would. Or do. Oh, and economic reality apparently has a fiscal conservative bias. Just as social realities have a progressive bias.

The above would not be correct if burdened with GOP rhetorical redefinition of the terms "conservative", "progressive", "reality" or "bias". One must set that GOP rhetoric/hyperbolic phenomenon aside to understand my intent.

53 Political Atheist  Tue, Feb 21, 2012 10:27:17am

re: #48 Obdicut

I'm sorry, I don't see where those articles conflict. Can you tell me?

One of them dismisses the tax dodging as soap opera for the masses. The other takes it seriously.

54 Obdicut  Tue, Feb 21, 2012 10:27:28am

re: #52 Daniel Ballard

Only that certain arguments are not apparently playing out as they have been described they would. Or do. Oh, and economic reality apparently has a fiscal conservative bias.

Did you read the New York Times article I linked?

Can you be more explicit about those 'certain arguments', please?

55 Obdicut  Tue, Feb 21, 2012 10:29:59am

re: #53 Daniel Ballard

One of them dismisses the tax dodging as soap opera for the masses. The other takes it seriously.

No, it doesn't. It dismisses the attempts to crack down on the tax dodging as a soap opera, and says nothing much will come of it. Read it again.

Other similar naming and shaming campaigns have been organised in the past few months, only to be forgotten soon afterwards. All these names are far from exceptions in the financial and political bodies, only concrete evidence that so much is rotten in the state of Greece. Were those individuals tried, did they finally pay up their debts, and were governmental funds raised as a result? Nobody has the whole picture, nobody knows – this is just a propaganda trick unfolded before a major restructuring of the country's financial life, which will reinforce the liberalisation of many private sector industries and be accompanied by major labour law changes that will allow further dramatic national cuts.

In the UK 'liberalization' means 'deregulating' if that's throwing you off.

56 Political Atheist  Tue, Feb 21, 2012 10:29:59am

re: #54 Obdicut

Did you read the New York Times article I linked?

Can you be more explicit about those 'certain arguments', please?

Can't read it now, needs my attention later undiluted by work.

By certain arguments I refer to austerity vs stimulus in terms of the economy here and abroad.

57 recusancy  Tue, Feb 21, 2012 10:31:38am

re: #52 Daniel Ballard

"I’d like to see an update, of course. But it looks as though much — not all — of the apparent success of Ireland in achieving internal devaluation may be a statistical illusion." [Link: krugman.blogs.nytimes.com...]

58 Obdicut  Tue, Feb 21, 2012 10:32:07am

re: #56 Daniel Ballard

Can't read it now, needs my attention later undiluted by work.

By certain arguments I refer to austerity vs stimulus in terms of the economy here and abroad.

I don't think you've done a very good job of comparing them, though. First of all, there's been stimulus abroad as well. Second of all, not everywhere in Europe has done austerity measures. Third, many of the places that have faced worse economic conditions in the wake of it.

59 Obdicut  Tue, Feb 21, 2012 10:35:35am

re: #56 Daniel Ballard

Germans did stimulus.

[Link: www.usatoday.com...]

France did a stimulus package;

[Link: news.bbc.co.uk...]

Norway did a stimulus package

[Link: dalje.com...]

Sweden did multiple stimulus packages.

[Link: www.economywatch.com...]


Did you know about these? And, if so, why are you positing things as 'stimulus here, and austerity abroad'?

60 Talking Point Detective  Tue, Feb 21, 2012 10:40:01am

I suppose that everyone remembers, when the stock market first went down after Obama's election, how his election was the cause?

Comparing the stock market levels over his tenure to the levels during the tenure of his predecessor is not something that the Republican candidate will want to be doing during the election.

61 garhighway  Tue, Feb 21, 2012 10:41:19am

re: #52 Daniel Ballard

Only that certain arguments are not apparently playing out as they have been described they would. Or do. Oh, and economic reality apparently has a fiscal conservative bias. Just as social realities have a progressive bias.

The above would not be correct if burdened with GOP rhetorical redefinition of the terms "conservative", "progressive", "reality" or "bias". One must set that GOP rhetoric/hyperbolic phenomenon aside to understand my intent.

I would love for you to demonstrate this in more detail.

Because from where I sit, Keynes still has more right answers than anyone else, and he says that austerity in the midst of a recession is a bad idea. Certainly, in the context of the US economy, a stimulus in 2009 was the right thing to do (we can argue about how well designed it was) and whether swinging to austerity now is the right thing to do here is no cinch. (Sooner or later, for sure. But now? Not so sure.)

62 Talking Point Detective  Tue, Feb 21, 2012 10:41:59am

re: #59 Obdicut

Germans did stimulus.

[Link: www.usatoday.com...]

France did a stimulus package;

[Link: news.bbc.co.uk...]

Norway did a stimulus package

[Link: dalje.com...]

Sweden did multiple stimulus packages.

[Link: www.economywatch.com...]

Did you know about these? And, if so, why are you positing things as 'stimulus here, and austerity abroad'?

Have you done a page on this, by any chance? I'd like to have one as a reference. Maybe you could suggest some link for an meta-type analysis?

63 Talking Point Detective  Tue, Feb 21, 2012 10:42:44am

re: #60 Talking Point Detective

I suppose that everyone remembers, when the stock market first went down after Obama's election, how his election was the cause?

Comparing the stock market levels over his tenure to the levels during the tenure of his predecessor is not something that the Republican candidate will want to be doing during the election.

Of course, that first paragraph was sarcastic. May not have been obvious.

64 Obdicut  Tue, Feb 21, 2012 10:43:06am

re: #62 Talking Point Detective

Have you done a page on this, by any chance? I'd like to have one as a reference. Maybe you could suggest some link for an meta-type analysis?

Argh, I'm sorry, I shouldn't even really be spending time doing this now. I have a hell of a work week. I might be able to get to it tomorrow morning.

Krugman's covered a few of these, I think.

65 Obdicut  Tue, Feb 21, 2012 10:46:00am

re: #61 garhighway

Austerity on its own never makes sense. Cutting back on stupid spending always makes sense. That can be done even during a recession-- but you've got to make sure what you're cutting isn't actually saving you money in the long run.

Be 'austere' about your infrastructure and you get Haiti.

Be 'austere' about education and you get a lack of, well, educated people.

But find a way to do something necessary more efficiently, spending less money? Always great. In a recession or otherwise.

66 Feline Fearless Leader  Tue, Feb 21, 2012 10:47:24am

re: #3 dragonfire1981

I await with excitement the right wing spin responses to this one.

Two lines of attack:
1. False optimism and behind the scenes manipulation using Obama's magic Islamic genie.
2. It would be doing even better if Obama had not interfered.

67 Feline Fearless Leader  Tue, Feb 21, 2012 10:50:11am

re: #37 Jimmah

Awesome!

Know for the wide array of pubs and variety of beers I hear.

68 Talking Point Detective  Tue, Feb 21, 2012 10:50:47am

From September of last year:

To measure US stock returns, I looked at the total return of the US stock market and used the total return of the Wilshire 5000. I don't want the partial returns of narrower indexes like the DOW 30 or S&P 500. I then looked at the annualized returns under G.W. Bush for the eight years ending January 20, 2009. I did the same for the period since January 20, 2009 for Obama.

The results:

G.W. Bush - negative 3.5 percent annually
Obama - positive 20.1 percent annually

Fact: The US stock market performed better under Obama than G.W. Bush by a staggering 23.6 percentage points a year.

69 Talking Point Detective  Tue, Feb 21, 2012 10:55:27am

While we're at it - deficit trends under Bush and Obama:

[Link: 3.bp.blogspot.com...]

Can that possibly be accurate?

70 Political Atheist  Tue, Feb 21, 2012 10:59:01am

re: #32 kirkspencer

Then why do we have this consensus among economic experts that austerity is the best fix there? I think in a few years we will see which theory prevails. Stimulus with deepening debt or austerity.

71 S'latch  Tue, Feb 21, 2012 11:00:36am

With the economy improving, the GOP has very little hope for 2012, which is probably one reason for the popularity of Rick Santorum.

72 Obdicut  Tue, Feb 21, 2012 11:01:13am

re: #70 Daniel Ballard

Then why do we have this consensus among economic experts that austerity is the best fix there?

We don't. Did you bother to read any of my posts? Most of the European nations passed stimulus packages.

Many of them did no austerity measures.

73 garhighway  Tue, Feb 21, 2012 11:02:21am

re: #70 Daniel Ballard

Then why do we have this consensus among economic experts that austerity is the best fix there? I think in a few years we will see which theory prevails. Stimulus with deepening debt or austerity.

Please provide us with the source of your "consensus among economic experts" assertion.

I ask because I think you are wrong.

74 Political Atheist  Tue, Feb 21, 2012 11:03:14am

re: #59 Obdicut

Germans did stimulus.

[Link: www.usatoday.com...]

France did a stimulus package;

[Link: news.bbc.co.uk...]

Norway did a stimulus package

[Link: dalje.com...]

Sweden did multiple stimulus packages.

[Link: www.economywatch.com...]

Did you know about these? And, if so, why are you positing things as 'stimulus here, and austerity abroad'?

Sure the Euro is several weak nations supported by several stronger nations economically. The stronger ones are the ones that did stimulus. The weaker ones are having austerity imposed. Portugal, Spain, Greece.

I still think this is a real world test of two differing economic theories. And we will not have a clear answer for years.

75 Obdicut  Tue, Feb 21, 2012 11:06:23am

re: #74 Daniel Ballard

Sure the Euro is several weak nations supported by several stronger nations economically. The stronger ones are the ones that did stimulus. The weaker ones are having austerity imposed. Portugal, Spain, Greece.

I still think this is a real world test of two differing economic theories. And we will not have a clear answer for years.

Can you at least please stop the claim that Europe didn't do stimulus and that they did austerity measures? France, Germany, Sweden, and Norway combined are a gigantic part of the European economy, and they all did stimuluses.

I have no idea what your argument even is any more. you're now conceding that they did stimulus in Europe. We made a lot of cuts here in the US. So how on earth is it 'stimulus here, austerity over there'?

Do you understand that the article you linked about Greek tax-dodging was not calling the problem a fairy tale, but instead said the solutions (by a still-corrupt government) were a fairy tale?

76 Political Atheist  Tue, Feb 21, 2012 11:15:10am

re: #75 Obdicut

Can you at least please stop the claim that Europe didn't do stimulus and that they did austerity measures? France, Germany, Sweden, and Norway combined are a gigantic part of the European economy, and they all did stimuluses.

I reject your premise that I spoke of austerity in the context that there were no stimulus measures. You would understand me more if you misunderstood me less.

77 Obdicut  Tue, Feb 21, 2012 11:19:57am

re: #76 Daniel Ballard

I reject your premise that I spoke of austerity in the context that there were no stimulus measures.

You did. And you even called it a dichotomy.

I am confused. In Europe, austerity is the game saving economic plan. But here it is argued we must spend, spend, spend to fix our economy. 66% more than we did if you ask Krugman.

It was argued that they had to spend in France, Germany, Norway, Finland, Sweden, Denmark, etc. etc. as well. And they did. And most of those countries did not enact austerity measures-- didn't make cuts to their government to the extent we did. Austerity was not the plan in Europe. It was/is the plan-- and not the complete plan-- in a few places in Europe.

Did you know about all the stimulus that happened in Europe?

78 Political Atheist  Tue, Feb 21, 2012 11:20:05am

re: #75 Obdicut

I have no idea what your argument even is any more. you're now conceding that they did stimulus in Europe. We made a lot of cuts here in the US. So how on earth is it 'stimulus here, austerity over there'?

How on earth? Because it is happening. Greece and others get austerity as their supposed fix. we get QE1, QE2, stimulus, TARP and Krugman saying we came up short by 2/3rds.

What makes the difference? Expert opinions vary or at some point, austerity is correct?

On tax dodging, is that not a huge issue here with offshore profits not taxed?

79 Political Atheist  Tue, Feb 21, 2012 11:23:02am

re: #77 Obdicut

#78 second to last line

80 Obdicut  Tue, Feb 21, 2012 11:23:07am

re: #78 Daniel Ballard

How on earth? Because it is happening. Greece and others get austerity as their supposed fix.

But not 'Europe'. A few countries with an entirely different set of problems than us get austerity. The country closest to our set of problems-- the UK-- got austerity and it's fucking failing miserably.

we get QE1, QE2, stimulus, TARP and Krugman saying we came up short by 2/3rds.

And France, Norway, Germany, etc. etc. also had stimuluses.

What makes the difference? Expert opinions vary or at some point, austerity is correct?

I have no clue what that means. Austerity, on its own, means nothing. It just means cutting spending. Cutting spending can be good, or bad, depending on what you cut. It can never, ever be an innate good or bad thing to do. It entirely matters what's being cut.

81 Obdicut  Tue, Feb 21, 2012 11:23:41am

re: #79 Daniel Ballard

#78 second to last line

I don't get it. Are you saying that those European nations I listed didn't really have stimulus packages, or what?

82 Political Atheist  Tue, Feb 21, 2012 11:36:34am

re: #81 Obdicut

I don't get it. Are you saying that those European nations I listed didn't really have stimulus packages, or what?

Are you saying Greece and Portugal did not have austerity imposed as the fix for their situations or what? ///

Why was austerity right for Greece and wrong for the UK? Or do you deny that austerity will help Greece?

83 Obdicut  Tue, Feb 21, 2012 11:43:49am

re: #82 Daniel Ballard

Are you saying Greece and Portugal did not have austerity imposed as the fix for their situations or what? ///

No, they did. They aren't "Europe"> They're two countries in Europe.

Why was austerity right for Greece and wrong for the UK? Or do you deny that austerity will help Greece?

Austerity on its own won't help Greece, no. They need to fix the corruption in government.

84 garhighway  Tue, Feb 21, 2012 12:11:04pm

re: #73 garhighway

Please provide us with the source of your "consensus among economic experts" assertion.

I ask because I think you are wrong.

Yo, Danny Boy!

How are you doing on this?


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