The GOP’s Slut-Shaming Ultrasound Craze Spreads to Illinois

Republican Party priorities
Wingnuts • Views: 36,601
The GOP’s uterus inspection device

Here we go again.

Now the Republican Party’s slut-shaming craze has spread to Illinois, with yet another uterus inspection bill:

SPRINGFIELD, Ill. (AP) — Illinois women who want to get abortions might be required to either view an ultrasound before the procedure or decline to do so in writing, under proposals that passed an Illinois House committee Tuesday.

The two measures call for more regulations on centers that perform abortions — including requiring doctors to ask if the patient wants to see an ultrasound and additional building regulations on the actual clinics — were passed overwhelmingly in the Agricultural Committee. They head to the House floor for debate.

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695 comments
1 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 5:34:10pm

The Agricultural Committee? So now women are cattle?

/Half serious

2 jamesfirecat  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 5:35:52pm

"or decline to do so in writing, " I wonder who will have access to the records of who has declined to do so?

3 Gus  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 5:37:21pm

The Republican Party is a big tent. A big tent full of idiots.

4 Lidane  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 5:37:42pm

re: #1 thedopefishlives

The Agricultural Committee? So now women are cattle?

/Half serious

Didn't you know? Women aren't anything but broodmares, designed to pump out babies every nine months like clockwork, just like the Duggars.

///

5 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 5:37:57pm

re: #1 thedopefishlives

What's next? NASA funding bills going before the Housing and Urban Development Committee?

6 ProGunLiberal  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 5:38:05pm

Thankfully, the Illinois Governor will shoot this down.

However, I would like to hear DF's explanation of this.

7 nines09  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 5:38:11pm

They are just going to keep going until they get voted out. That's the way I see it. I've been reduced to thinking a vote for any GOP candidate anywhere is support for this shameless pandering to the loons and fundies.

8 jamesfirecat  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 5:38:24pm

By the way, is there anyone in this thread who doesn't like the idea of abortion being legal? I would love to have a conversation on this topic!

9 Lidane  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 5:38:50pm

re: #2 jamesfirecat

"or decline to do so in writing, " I wonder who will have access to the records of who has declined to do so?

More to the point, how soon before the so-called "pro-life" nutjobs get a hold of that list and start harassing women and their families in person?

10 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 5:39:14pm

re: #4 Lidane

Didn't you know? Women aren't anything but broodmares, designed to pump out babies every nine months like clockwork, just like the Duggars.

///

Oh boy, did I find out today that my company's CFO also has as a client Qwiver Full. Georgia based. WTF. Could not click, but I'm like ??

11 Lidane  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 5:39:40pm

re: #7 Drink Snark! In The New 40oz Travel Mug!

I've been reduced to thinking a vote for any GOP candidate anywhere is support for this shameless pandering to the loons and fundies.

That's because it is.

Vote for the GOP and you're giving tacit support to these lunatics. Period.

12 b_sharp  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 5:39:56pm

re: #8 jamesfirecat

By the way, is there anyone in this thread who doesn't like the idea of abortion being legal? I would love to have a conversation on this topic!

Yer a poopyhead.

13 Killgore Trout  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 5:40:03pm

re: #3 Gus

The Republican Party is a big tent. A big tent full of idiots.

Maryland Republican: Meeting gay couples left me 'changed person'

If you are blinded by hate you'll never see.

Kach, who had previously backed attempts to define marriage as between one man and one woman, found a space right next to the witness table.

"I saw with so many of the gay couples, they were so devoted to another. I saw so much love," he said. "When this hearing was over, I was a changed person in regard to this issue. I felt that I understood what same sex couples were looking for."

A week later, Kach voted for the gay marriage bill on the floor of the House of Delegates, one of only two Republicans to do so. Their support proved vital, as the bill squeaked through the 141-member chamber on a 72–67 vote.

14 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 5:40:54pm

re: #4 Lidane

Didn't you know? Women aren't anything but broodmares, designed to pump out babies every nine months like clockwork, just like the Duggars.

///

I actually wouldn't be surprised if that was their logic in pushing it through the Ag Committee. Seriously, that's the level of derp these guys have reduced themselves to.

15 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 5:40:57pm

Spartacus is sooo last thread.

16 b_sharp  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 5:41:04pm

re: #10 Spartacuss

Oh boy, did I find out today that my company's CFO also has as a client Qwiver Full. Georgia based. WTF. Could not click, but I'm like ??

Say what?

What's that mean in, like, English?

17 ProGunLiberal  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 5:41:08pm

re: #8 jamesfirecat

I believe that, at the Third Trimester there should be some controls. But I have largely liberalized on Abortion.

18 Only The Lurker Knows  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 5:41:44pm

I suspect Idaho will be next up on list.

19 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 5:42:01pm

re: #18 Bubblehead II

I suspect Idaho will be next up on list.

Idaho? No, YOU DA HO!

20 Kragar  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 5:42:04pm

Jon Huntsman says U.S. needs a viable 3rd party, thinks GOP lacks big ideas

Former Republican presidential hopeful Jon Huntsman Thursday reiterated his backing of ex-rival Mitt Romney — and issued a scathing criticism of the two-party paralysis gripping Washington.

The former Utah governor, who ended his White House run in January after finishing a distant third in the New Hampshire GOP primary, blasted his party for failing to advance ambitious solutions to the nation’s economic woes.

“Gone are the days when the Republican Party used to put forward big, bold, visionary stuff,” he said during an appearance on MSNBC’s “Morning Joe.”

“I think we’re gonna have problems politically until we get some sort of third-party movement or some alternative voice out there that can put forward new ideas,” he added.

Continuing with his rebuke of the status quo on Capitol Hill, he said: “I am looking at the political marketplace and I am saying this duopoly is tired and we’re stuck in a rut.”

21 Lidane  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 5:43:06pm

re: #17 ProGunLiberal

I believe that, at the Third Trimester there should be some controls. But I have largely liberalized on Abortion.

The only reason to even consider abortion that far into a pregnancy is if the child is going to die anyway, or if there's some horrific deformity or something. I can't imagine people getting that far into a pregnancy and deciding to abort for the lulz.

22 nines09  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 5:43:08pm

re: #11 Lidane

I was trying to remain civil. I think they need to fall so hard it leaves marks.

23 b_sharp  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 5:44:20pm

re: #20 Kragar

Jon Huntsman says U.S. needs a viable 3rd party, thinks GOP lacks big ideas

Big ideas?

How about sane ideas?

24 jamesfirecat  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 5:44:29pm

re: #17 ProGunLiberal

I believe that, at the Third Trimester there should be some controls. But I have largely liberalized on Abortion.

///So you'd allowe first and second term abortions? And you call yourself Pro-life?

25 Only The Lurker Knows  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 5:45:05pm

re: #19 thedopefishlives

Idaho? No, YOU DA HO!

You lost me on that one.

????

26 jaunte  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 5:45:31pm
Current regulations for abortion clinics are tailored to the procedures they offer, according to David Carvalho, a director at the public health department. He said there are about 20 differences between the two standards.

That includes requiring changes to regulate that corridors in the clinics to be eight feet, rather than the current five feet standard and having electrical outlets on every wall.

Sneaky.

27 b_sharp  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 5:45:56pm

re: #25 Bubblehead II

You lost me on that one.

???

Play on the name I Da Ho (Idaho spoken)

28 Gus  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 5:46:20pm

re: #13 Killgore Trout

Maryland Republican: Meeting gay couples left me 'changed person'

If you are blinded by hate you'll never see.

An anomaly in the space-time continuum.

//

29 Charles Johnson  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 5:47:00pm

re: #13 Killgore Trout

Maryland Republican: Meeting gay couples left me 'changed person'

If you are blinded by hate you'll never see.

That's how it's going to happen, one person at a time overcoming their stupid ingrained prejudices. It's been happening for years already, and it's not going to stop.

A lot of people will never be able to see past the crap foisted on them by their parents, but enough will that things will keep getting better.

Man, do I sound optimistic tonight or what?

30 Killgore Trout  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 5:47:11pm

re: #20 Kragar

Jon Huntsman says U.S. needs a viable 3rd party, thinks GOP lacks big ideas

I think the nuts and bolts political reality of third parties is that they're only putpose is to serve as a spoiler. Ralph Nader and Ross Perot didn't really change anything other than the loss of the party they siphoned votes from. It's just they way our electoral system works. The only viable solution is fixing the broken Republican party. Replacing it just isn't a realistic option.

31 Lidane  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 5:47:52pm

re: #23 b_sharp

Big ideas?

How about sane ideas?

Seriously. Let's have the GOP acknowledge the Enlightenment, carbon dating, and heliocentrism first.

Once we get past that hurdle, sane ideas might start to happen.

32 Charles Johnson  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 5:49:52pm

Stand back, I don't know how positive this thing is gonna get.

33 Obdicut  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 5:50:06pm

re: #30 Killgore Trout

Parties have died before. And split. And wildly transformed.

34 Lidane  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 5:51:00pm

re: #30 Killgore Trout

The only viable solution is fixing the broken Republican party. Replacing it just isn't a realistic option.

No, the only viable solution is changing the electoral laws in this country to lessen the stranglehold that the two major parties have.

Make it easier for third parties to get on local and state ballots. Force the Dems and the GOP to have to actually compete for votes by making other ideas more viable.

35 Killgore Trout  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 5:51:33pm

re: #29 Charles Johnson

That's how it's going to happen, one person at a time overcoming their stupid ingrained prejudices. It's been happening for years already, and it's not going to stop.

A lot of people will never be able to see past the crap foisted on them by their parents, but enough will that things will keep getting better.

Man, do I sound optimistic tonight or what?

I think we'll see a bit more of this after the election. The Tea Party is played out and Republicans are going to be looking for a new direction. Their radical options are pretty limited; JBS/Libertarian nuts or the good old Religious right. Both are electoral poison. I think they'll get back to serious politics over the next few years.

36 Killgore Trout  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 5:53:48pm

re: #34 Lidane

No, the only viable solution is changing the electoral laws in this country to lessen the stranglehold that the two major parties have.

Make it easier for third parties to get on local and state ballots. Force the Dems and the GOP to have to actually compete for votes by making other ideas more viable.

I'm not sure that's a realistic option and would require Constitutional amendments. We could go with a parliamentary system or something like it but those are messy too.

37 Shvaughn  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 5:54:05pm

re: #8 jamesfirecat

By the way, is there anyone in this thread who doesn't like the idea of abortion being legal? I would love to have a conversation on this topic!

A new anti-choice troll du jour will probably show up any moment now.

38 darthstar  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 5:55:01pm

re: #35 Killgore Trout

The GOP won't get back to 'serious politics' anytime soon. What they will try to do is take ownership of anything good that happens under the Obama administration in this or the next term (see Romney re: GM, for example). And when it comes to social issues, they're already blaming Democrats for the kerfuffle over birth control - they must be just playing devil's advocate to keep the Democratic party honest on the issues.

39 jamesfirecat  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 5:56:14pm

re: #37 Shvaughn

A new anti-choice troll du jour will probably show up any moment now.

Honestly I just want a debate on this issue, I feel strangely confident on it, and normally when I'm confident on something someone on LGF is there to slap me down to size.

40 palomino  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 5:56:44pm

re: #35 Killgore Trout

I think we'll see a bit more of this after the election. The Tea Party is played out and Republicans are going to be looking for a new direction. Their radical options are pretty limited; JBS/Libertarian nuts or the good old Religious right. Both are electoral poison. I think they'll get back to serious politics over the next few years.

The GOP has just morphed into a Church, and you think they'll get back to serious politics soon. The House is stacked with TP absolutists. And the overriding issue in the primaries seems to be who loves Jesus the most. The power base in the GOP is now the evangelical South. How is that gonna change so quickly, especially if the GOP wins the WH in Nov., which it still has a decent chance to do?

41 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 5:57:41pm

re: #25 Bubblehead II

You lost me on that one.

???

It's just a cheesy one-liner, that's all. Sigh. I'll stop now.

42 jamesfirecat  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 5:58:07pm

re: #40 palomino

The GOP has just morphed into a Church, and you think they'll get back to serious politics soon. The House is stacked with TP absolutists. And the overriding issue in the primaries seems to be who loves Jesus the most. The power base in the GOP is now the evangelical South. How is that gonna change so quickly, especially if the GOP wins the WH in Nov., which it still has a decent chance to do?

Define "decent chance"?

43 darthstar  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 5:58:13pm

Whoo-hoo!

44 b_sharp  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 5:58:23pm

re: #39 jamesfirecat

Honestly I just want a debate on this issue, I feel strangely confident on it, and normally when I'm confident on something someone on LGF is there to slap me down to size.

Every zygote is a potential human.

45 moderatelyradicalliberal  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 5:58:36pm

re: #32 Charles Johnson

Stand back, I don't know how positive this thing is gonna get.

Don't get too positive. The war on women, especially the poor ones rages on.

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

46 prairiefire  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 5:58:38pm

Illinois!?! Oh man, they do not realize how much they have accelerated the shit storm. Gooooooo GOP!.

47 SteveMcG  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 5:58:57pm

re: #34 Lidane

Not b.buying into thirdparty viability. There's a reason Sen Jeffsords caucuses with the Democrats. It would Belinda of.pointless to haves caucus of one. So is you're third path going to take a few issues from the dens and a few from the Republicans? The parties are actually a symbol of the politics we dream of. Voters who support a party have to accept, compromise if you will, on some issues because they believe in their stance.in other issues.

48 Lidane  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 5:58:59pm

re: #36 Killgore Trout

I'm not sure that's a realistic option and would require Constitutional amendments. We could go with a parliamentary system or something like it but those are messy too.

How would it require amendments? Unless I missed something, I don't think the two-party system is codified in the Constitution.

All I know is that the two parties we have are stagnant and need to be forced to compete on a field of ideas. What we have now is broken, and Citizens United just made those cracks in the system even more obvious.

49 Only The Lurker Knows  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 5:58:59pm

re: #19 thedopefishlives

Idaho? No, YOU DA HO!

Fail. Try again.

50 b_sharp  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 5:59:47pm

re: #41 thedopefishlives

It's just a cheesy one-liner, that's all. Sigh. I'll stop now.

I got it. But then again I also got crabs some years ago.

51 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 6:00:09pm

re: #49 Bubblehead II

Fail. Try again.

I'll go back to my corner now.

52 darthstar  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 6:00:18pm

re: #46 prairiefire

Illinois!?! Oh man, they do not realize how much they have accelerated the shit storm. Gooo GOP!.

And notice there are no complaints from the GOP about 'Chicago style politics' on this issue.

53 SteveMcG  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 6:00:44pm

re: #47 SteveMcG

Sort for the spelling. It's hard to type on a tablet.

54 jaunte  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 6:00:59pm

Susan G. Komen Hires Consulting Firm To Assess Damage To Reputation

PSB wraps up the survey by listing a diverse cast of politicians and celebrities and asking the reader to rate which ones would be the most credible as Komen's new spokesperson. The list includes Sheryl Crow, George H.W. Bush, Bill Clinton, Sandra Day O'Connor, Ellen Degeneres, Melissa Etheridge, Lance Armstrong, and Rudy Giuliani.

55 Lidane  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 6:01:12pm

re: #47 SteveMcG

That's just it. There is no third-party viability because the two major parties have written the laws in their favor, entrenching the system to suit them.

It's a problem, and we're seeing the limits of the system now.

56 Only The Lurker Knows  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 6:01:42pm

re: #41 thedopefishlives

It's just a cheesy one-liner, that's all. Sigh. I'll stop now.

So shall I.

57 jamesfirecat  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 6:01:54pm

re: #44 b_sharp

Every zygote is a potential human.

Yeah but which is more important, your /that zygote's the right to life or a woman's right to keep her private property (organs) private?

58 Interesting Times  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 6:02:36pm

re: #39 jamesfirecat

Honestly I just want a debate on this issue, I feel strangely confident on it

Here you go...

59 b_sharp  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 6:02:57pm

re: #54 jaunte

Susan G. Komen Hires Consulting Firm To Assess Damage To Reputation

I hope they didn't hire Frank Luntz.

60 Killgore Trout  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 6:03:22pm

re: #48 Lidane

How would it require amendments? Unless I missed something, I don't think the two-party system is codified in the Constitution.

Article II, Section 1, Clause 2
The electoral college makes third parties difficult but not impossible. They certainly don't last long. I think the biggest success story is the Bull Moose Party or the Whigs.

61 SteveMcG  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 6:03:29pm

re: #55 Lidane

That's just it. There is no third-party viability because the two major parties have written the laws in their favor, entrenching the system to suit them.

It's a problem, and we're seeing the limits of the system now.

Not seeing which laws are freezing out a third party.

62 Gus  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 6:05:16pm

biab

63 Obdicut  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 6:05:59pm

re: #60 Killgore Trout

Article II, Section 1, Clause 2
The electoral college makes third parties difficult but not impossible. They certainly don't last long. I think the biggest success story is the Bull Moose Party or the Whigs.

No, the Whigs were one of the (semi)original two parties.

The GOP started as a third party during the collapse of the Whigs.

64 jamesfirecat  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 6:06:08pm

re: #60 Killgore Trout

Article II, Section 1, Clause 2
The electoral college makes third parties difficult but not impossible. They certainly don't last long. I think the biggest success story is the Bull Moose Party or the Whigs.

WHIGS!

Everybody drink!

65 Lidane  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 6:06:16pm

re: #61 SteveMcG

Not seeing which laws are freezing out a third party.

Look into the process of getting on a ballot as a third party candidate. There's your answer.

66 b_sharp  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 6:06:22pm

re: #57 jamesfirecat

Yeah but which is more important, your /that zygote's the right to life or a woman's right to keep her private property (organs) private?

Ain't got nothing to do with privacy. Has to do with ownership and control coupled with when a collection of cells with human DNA becomes a functional human.

67 Killgore Trout  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 6:06:40pm

re: #64 jamesfirecat

WHIGS!

Everybody drink!

Tower cam uber alles!

68 Killgore Trout  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 6:07:15pm

re: #67 Killgore Trout

Tower cam uber alles!

Ojoe's not around much any more.

69 BrainSurfer  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 6:07:22pm

re: #57 jamesfirecat

Hi jamesfirecat... fire away!

70 jamesfirecat  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 6:07:29pm

re: #66 b_sharp

Ain't got nothing to do with privacy. Has to do with ownership and control coupled with when a collection of cells with human DNA becomes a functional human.

I agree it doesn't have to do with privacy it has to do with ownership. Do we own our own organs completely or if somebody needs them to survive should they be able to lay claim to them?

71 prairiefire  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 6:07:46pm

re: #52 darthstar

There are so many blue stockinged women in IL, I can't wait for the town hall meetings.

72 jamesfirecat  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 6:07:59pm

re: #69 BrainSurfer

Hi jamesfirecat... fire away!

As I said in the other thread, glad to have you back, so do you think abortion should be illegal and if so, why?

73 b_sharp  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 6:09:17pm

re: #70 jamesfirecat

I agree it doesn't have to do with privacy it has to do with ownership. Do we own our own private organs or if somebody needs them to survive should they be able to lay claim to them?

If it's just a collection of cells becoming, then the answer is obvious, the woman has all rights. If the collection of cells becomes human, then the answer is less clear.

74 BrainSurfer  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 6:10:29pm

re: #72 jamesfirecat

Illegal no. Morally objectionable yes - but that is just my opinion. Others can have opinions which differ from mine.

75 dragonfire1981  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 6:10:43pm

Well this is fucked up:

Supposed 9/11 Firefighter outed as a fraud

A South Carolina man who told his fellow firefighters he was one of the first responders on 9/11 has admitted it was a lie.

Jordan Lifander, a former Cedarhurst, Long Island volunteer firefighter, said this week that he was sorry for telling firefighters in the Palmetto State that he was a captain of FDNY's Ladder 133, which lost 12 men on Sept. 11.

"You know, once you tell one lie, you gotta keep up that lie," Lifander told CBSNewYork.com on Wednesday. "I got all caught up in the whole 9/11 anniversary and just lied. I was not a member of the FDNY, was not a captain in Ladder 133."

Lifander "did not survive the disaster any more than those of us who watched it on television," CBS 2's Lou Young wrote.

Dressed in a uniform with an FDNY patch, Lifander spoke at a 9/11 memorial service in Spartanburg, S.C., last year, telling the crowd he attended "47 funerals in three weeks for brothers who died that day." He received a standing ovation.

According to the Spartanburg Herald-Journal, current and former New York City firefighters contacted the paper on Monday saying Liflander's story was a "sham."

Uhhh, No. Once you tell one lie you CAN keep up that lie OR you can have the courage to admit it's a lie and not let it get entirely out of hand to the point where it hurts and offends people...like this one did.

76 jamesfirecat  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 6:11:13pm

re: #73 b_sharp

If it's just a collection of cells becoming, then the answer is obvious, the woman has all rights. If the collection of cells becomes human, then the answer is less clear.

I disagree, even if it is a fully grown human being, ownership comes before saving someone's life, at least that is how our current system works.

If there is a blizzard outside and a man comes to your door and say "I will freeze to death unless you let me in" will the police arrest you for murder if you shut the door in his face, and indeed he freezes to death?

77 jaunte  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 6:11:35pm

Santorum Cites Racist Author To Defend His Views On ‘The Dangers Of Contraception’

Murray co-authored The Bell Curve, which argues that black people score lower on IQ tests because they are genetically inferior to whites. To reach this conclusion, Murray relied on studies backed by the Pioneer Fund, whose original mission was to pursue “race betterment” for people “deemed to be descended predominantly from white persons who settled in the original thirteen states prior to the adoption of the Constitution.”

78 BrainSurfer  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 6:11:45pm

re: #75 dragonfire1981

Must be a Democrat, then.

79 jamesfirecat  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 6:13:01pm

re: #74 BrainSurfer

Illegal no. Morally objectionable yes - but that is just my opinion. Others can have opinions which differ from mine.

Then honestly we have no disagreement, at least no disagreement worth hashing out, morals and opinions are hard to pin down and vary from person to person, they aren't worth fighting over compared to the issue of what should be legal or not.

80 Lidane  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 6:13:11pm

re: #78 BrainSurfer

Boring troll is boring. Try changing your game up a bit.

81 darthstar  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 6:14:24pm

re: #74 BrainSurfer

Illegal no. Morally objectionable yes - but that is just my opinion. Others can have opinions which differ from mine.

There isn't a person on the planet who thinks abortion is fun. But it's a woman's choice. Period.

82 b_sharp  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 6:14:33pm

re: #76 jamesfirecat

I disagree, even if it is a fully grown human being, ownership comes before saving someone's life, at least that is how our current system works.

If there is a blizzard outside and a man comes to your door and say "I will freeze to death unless you let me in" will the police arrest you for murder if you shut the door in his face, and indeed he freezes to death?

That happens and you can be charged with criminal negligence in Canada. I suspect something similar in the US.

83 jamesfirecat  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 6:17:41pm

re: #82 b_sharp

That happens and you can be charged with criminal negligence in Canada. I suspect something similar in the US.

I really don't think so.

If our nation valued keeping people alive over allowing people to decide what to do with their own organs or why shouldn't hospitals be able to call you up and tell you that they have a patient who will die without a kidney transplant and you're a match? Then have you charged with a crime unless you come in to donate?

We place someone's ownership of their kidneys over someone else's life, don't we?

84 allegro  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 6:18:09pm

re: #76 jamesfirecat

I disagree, even if it is a fully grown human being, ownership comes before saving someone's life, at least that is how our current system works.

If there is a blizzard outside and a man comes to your door and say "I will freeze to death unless you let me in" will the police arrest you for murder if you shut the door in his face, and indeed he freezes to death?

There could be a case for reckless disregard in such a case, I would think. Giving someone shelter, unless it's a known mass murderer or something, would be a mite depraved.

A better and more applicable argument is making it illegal to refuse to donate a kidney to another upon demand. Or even blood. Would that be right? Most would be shocked at the suggestion but think nothing of demanding women give up their body resources upon demand of a growing fetus.

85 darthstar  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 6:18:12pm

re: #82 b_sharp

That happens and you can be charged with criminal negligence in Canada. I suspect something similar in the US.

What if that man is Stephen Harper?

86 jamesfirecat  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 6:19:06pm

re: #84 allegro

There could be a case for reckless disregard in such a case, I would think. Giving someone shelter, unless it's a known mass murderer or something, would be a mite depraved.

A better and more applicable argument is making it illegal to refuse to donate a kidney to another upon demand. Or even blood. Would that be right? Most would be shocked at the suggestion but think nothing of demanding women give up their body resources upon demand of a growing fetus.

Came to more or less the same conclusion you list in my post 83.

87 b_sharp  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 6:19:24pm

re: #85 darthstar

What if that man is Stephen Harper?

Justifiable homicide.
Self defence.

88 dell*nix  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 6:19:42pm

re: #25 Bubblehead II

There is a song "I'd A Ho, But she left me and I cried."
Actually heard it on the radio.

89 allegro  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 6:20:10pm

re: #86 jamesfirecat

Came to more or less the same conclusion you list in my post 83.

Heh, I saw that. I'm slow on the draw tonight. ;)

90 jamesfirecat  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 6:20:16pm

re: #88 dell*nix

There is a song "I'd A Ho, But she left me and I cried."
Actually heard it on the radio.

I gave her my heart and a diamond, but she clubbed me with a spade.

91 BrainSurfer  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 6:22:41pm

re: #79 jamesfirecat

Got to agree. I have a live and let alive approach to life.

But what I do feel strongly about is that there are those who glorify abortion, and brush off the mindnumbing number of abortions as if they are stats to be proud of.

92 b_sharp  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 6:22:55pm

re: #83 jamesfirecat

I really don't think so.

If our nation valued keeping people alive over allowing people to decide what to do with their own or why shouldn't hospitals be able to call you up and tell you that they have a patient who will die without a kidney transplant and you're a match? Then have you charged with a crime unless you come in to donate?

We place someone's ownership of their kidneys over someone else's life, don't we?

Yet it is illegal to abort after a specific time period, the time period being a rough measure of foetal maturity, unless there are dangers to the mother.

93 jamesfirecat  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 6:24:52pm

re: #92 b_sharp

Yet it is illegal to abort after a specific time period, the time period being a rough measure of foetal maturity, unless there are dangers to the mother.

And I agree. Because, correct me if I'm wrong here... the time when it becomes illegal to abort is around the same time when it would be possible for the fetus to survive outside the mother's womb isn't it?

At that point you are ending a life that could survive without your organs... though I suppose this leads up to the next interesting question... what is the earliest it is legal to induce labor?

94 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 6:28:17pm

re: #54 jaunte

PSB wraps up the survey by listing a diverse cast of politicians and celebrities and asking the reader to rate which ones would be the most credible as Komen's new spokesperson. The list includes Sheryl Crow, George H.W. Bush, Bill Clinton, Sandra Day O'Connor, Ellen Degeneres, Melissa Etheridge, Lance Armstrong, and Rudy Giuliani.

Please, her. I will not be satisfied until all wingnut heads go splodey.

95 jamesfirecat  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 6:29:22pm

re: #91 BrainSurfer

Got to agree. I have a live and let alive approach to life.

But what I do feel strongly about is that there are those who glorify abortion, and brush off the mindnumbing number of abortions as if they are stats to be proud of.

I've never found casting shame around for people committing legal actions ever accomplished anything worthwhile myself.

96 darthstar  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 6:30:08pm

Keith Olbermann does a nice takedown of Breitbart on his show and on dKos here

Mr. Breitbart and his websites have now promulgated a list of what his people boast are 17 rapes at Occupy protests between October 16th and November 19th. 17 stories and links, headlined "Rapes and Various Sexual Crimes" and all of them attributed to Occupy.

It turns out Breitbart and his people have padded this, by listing some stories twice. And in nearly every case, Breitbart's crew has twisted nearly every one of the allegations in the stories. The idea seems to have been to make as long a list as possible, and assume that your supporters will never bother to link through to the stories, let alone follow-up to find their true outcomes.

Those who do bother will find Mr. Breitbart and his colleagues, are lying:.

...these are not the rapey-stabby droids you are looking for.

97 Charles Johnson  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 6:30:44pm

re: #91 BrainSurfer

I have a live and let alive approach to life.

Not seeing that in the comments you've posted.

98 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 6:31:20pm

re: #96 darthstar

I thought he flounced from dkos?

99 darthstar  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 6:32:57pm

re: #98 Spаrtасus

I thought he flounced from dkos?

Nah...that was MSNBC...

100 jaunte  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 6:33:02pm

Life would be better all around if pro-life people cared as much for people after they're born as they claim to care about the unborn.

101 b_sharp  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 6:33:49pm

re: #83 jamesfirecat

I really don't think so.

If our nation valued keeping people alive over allowing people to decide what to do with their own or why shouldn't hospitals be able to call you up and tell you that they have a patient who will die without a kidney transplant and you're a match? Then have you charged with a crime unless you come in to donate?

We place someone's ownership of their kidneys over someone else's life, don't we?

A fetus isn't the same as a kidney, it is an individual separable human, who can survive on his own once he reaches a certain physical maturity. That's why its important to decide on a point where a non-human fetus becomes a human fetus. Once that point is reached then the fetus is no longer just a passenger, but a thinking being. It's no longer about saving the life of, but causing the death of. The only time causing another's death is if that person is an obvious threat.

102 Digital Display  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 6:34:51pm

re: #91 BrainSurfer

Got to agree. I have a live and let alive approach to life.

But what I do feel strongly about is that there are those who glorify abortion, and brush off the mindnumbing number of abortions as if they are stats to be proud of.

You know what? I've never met anyone that has glorified abortion..or any that think the stats are to be proud of..
Where the fuck do you live?
It is sad you view the world like you do..

103 jamesfirecat  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 6:35:25pm

re: #101 b_sharp

A fetus isn't the same as a kidney, it is an individual separable human, who can survive on his own once he reaches a certain physical maturity. That's why its important to decide on a point where a non-human fetus becomes a human fetus. Once that point is reached then the fetus is no longer just a passenger, but a thinking being. It's no longer about saving the life of, but causing the death of. The only time causing another's death is if that person is an obvious threat.

You miss my point.

It is not a crime in our society to allow someone to die by refusing to donate a kidney.

You agree with me on that, correct?

104 austin_blue  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 6:35:37pm

re: #78 BrainSurfer

Must be a Democrat, then.

sigh

105 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 6:36:03pm

re: #99 darthstar

Nah...that was MSNBC...

He flounced.

But with all blog flouncers, they come back, I guess.

106 Coracle  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 6:37:04pm

re: #91 BrainSurfer

But what I do feel strongly about is that there are those who glorify abortion...

Who, exactly, glorifies abortion?

107 ProGunLiberal  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 6:38:39pm

re: #102 HoosierHoops

Also, if one cares about preventing abortion, Birth Control should be readily available. Now, I wonder what he Mr. Surfer thinks of that. Although, based on the comment about the Fradulent 9/11 victim, I have my own conclusions.

108 b_sharp  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 6:40:24pm

re: #93 jamesfirecat

And I agree. Because, correct me if I'm wrong here... the time when it becomes illegal to abort is around the same time when it would be possible for the fetus to survive outside the mother's womb isn't it?

At that point you are ending a life that could survive without your organs... though I suppose this leads up to the next interesting question... what is the earliest it is legal to induce labor?

The answer to that last question is becoming more and more dependent on technology. I prefer to consider a fetus human when the brain is capable of exhibiting human traits, which would be after the majority of electrochemical processes are functioning and the aural/optical connections are mostly finished the cull. This is also problematic because the brain still develops beyond birth although the majority of it is forming pathways not capabilities.

109 freetoken  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 6:41:50pm

re: #35 Killgore Trout

I think we'll see a bit more of this after the election. The Tea Party is played out and Republicans are going to be looking for a new direction.

While the "Tea Party" as a marketing mechanism may be going out of vogue, two things remain strong and can continue so for a very long time: (1) religious fervor as a motivation for decision making, and (2) the need to look for scapegoats when something goes awry.

The SoCons will be able to steer the GOP as long as they can be the margin of victory - and they are in some states.

Likewise, the need to blame "the other" never really goes out of style, so the xenophobes who are also plying the GOP for their own interest can continue to stir up resentment against pick-your-choice-of-minority.

110 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 6:42:11pm

Heh. Mark Levin thinks Romney and Paul are in cahoots to bring down the True Conservative Gingrich.

111 jamesfirecat  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 6:42:29pm

re: #108 b_sharp

The answer to that last question is becoming more and more dependent on technology. I prefer to consider a fetus human when the brain is capable of exhibiting human traits, which would be after the majority of electrochemical processes are functioning and the aural/optical connections are mostly finished the cull. This is also problematic because the brain still develops beyond birth although the majority of it is forming pathways not capabilities.

For me, there should be no (or a very small) gap between when a woman can't get an abortion and when she can get labor induced and give the child up for adoption.

I assume the child is a human being from birth since while it may be inaccurate approach it most doubtlessly does not straw many my opponent's argument.

112 allegro  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 6:42:42pm

re: #108 b_sharp

The answer to that last question is becoming more and more dependent on technology. I prefer to consider a fetus human when the brain is capable of exhibiting human traits, which would be after the majority of electrochemical processes are functioning and the aural/optical connections are mostly finished the cull. This is also problematic because the brain still develops beyond birth although the majority of it is forming pathways not capabilities.

I think the topic is a red herring since women don't seek termination of pregnancies late term unless there is a very good reason to do so.

113 b_sharp  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 6:43:47pm

re: #103 jamesfirecat

You miss my point.

It is not a crime in our society to allow someone to die by refusing to donate a kidney.

You agree with me on that, correct?

Yes I agree, but I don't agree it's a good analogy. That's my point. Why argue about an irrelevant point.

114 jamesfirecat  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 6:45:18pm

re: #113 b_sharp

Yes I agree, but I don't agree it's a good analogy. That's my point. Why argue about an irrelevant point.

My analogy is important because it shows that we legally allow people to let other fully grown people die by denying them access to their organs.

If this is the case why can a mother not legally let her unborn child die by denying it access to her organs?

115 allegro  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 6:46:52pm

re: #114 jamesfirecat

My analogy is important because it shows that we legally allow people to let other fully grown people die by denying them access to their organs.

If this is the case why can a mother not legally let her unborn child die by denying it access to her organs?

Because sluts who don't keep their legs closed have no bodily rights after that, that's why.

//

116 erik_t  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 6:50:10pm

re: #114 jamesfirecat

My analogy is important because it shows that we legally allow people to let other fully grown people die by denying them access to their organs.

If this is the case why can a mother not legally let her unborn child die by denying it access to her organs?

I mean this purely as an argument against the purity of your analogy: the (female) human body has evolved to gestate and then birth a human child without later repercussions. It generally does this fairly well. On the other hand, an organ donor absolutely loses the donated organ forever.

To equate the two without caveats is fallacious.

117 jamesfirecat  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 6:51:34pm

re: #116 erik_t

I mean this purely as an argument against the purity of your analogy: the (female) human body has evolved to gestate and then birth a human child without later repercussions. It generally does this fairly well. On the other hand, an organ donor absolutely loses the donated organ forever.

To equate the two without caveats is fallacious.

Then I will alter my argument slightly.

Is it illegal to let someone die by refusing to give blood?

118 allegro  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 6:52:08pm

re: #116 erik_t

I mean this purely as an argument against the purity of your analogy: the (female) human body has evolved to gestate and then birth a human child without later repercussions, whereas an organ donor absolutely loses that organ forever.

To equate the two without caveats is fallacious.

Do you know how many women die in childbirth? Do you know how many suffer health issues for the rest of their lives after gestating a child?

There are serious repercussions, physically, mentally, and emotionally.

119 b_sharp  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 6:52:33pm

re: #111 jamesfirecat

For me, there should be no (or a very small) gap between when a woman can't get an abortion and when she can get labor induced and give the child up for adoption.

I assume the child is a human being from birth since while it may be inaccurate approach it most doubtlessly does not straw many my opponent's argument.

That definition of humanness may have been appropriate before we could measure brain activity, but it's a bad definition now. A blastocyst is definitely not a human, but an 8 month old fetus definitely is. Although there are some very complex interactive systems developing at the same time, making it incredibly difficult to objectively determine the collection of cells to human transition, the legalities of a woman controller her own body while respecting the rights and value of a foetal human has to be defined.

We are generally defined by our cognitive abilities.

120 palomino  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 6:53:06pm

re: #42 jamesfirecat

Define "decent chance"?

At this moment Obama would win. But bad jobs reports, higher gas prices, maybe some unintended consequences regarding Iran, could all hurt Obama enough over the next 8 months to give Romney (probably only GOPer who could win) at least a 40% chance to win a close election (an electoral map like 2000).

121 darthstar  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 6:53:14pm

re: #105 Spаrtасus

He flounced.

But with all blog flouncers, they come back, I guess.

That's not a flounce. He criticized dKos, rightly in my opinion, and took a break. Hell, I've done the same myself in the seven years I've been a member there...and I have a lifetime subscription. All internet forums go through growing pains...just ask Charles.

122 erik_t  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 6:53:52pm

re: #118 allegro

Do you know how many women die in childbirth? Do you know how many suffer health issues for the rest of their lives after gestating a child?

There are serious repercussions, physically, mentally, and emotionally.

In PIMF-hindsight, without any visible reply, I modified my statement. Please see above. Do you disagree that the equation is imprecise?

123 jamesfirecat  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 6:55:38pm

re: #119 b_sharp

That definition of humanness may have been appropriate before we could measure brain activity, but it's a bad definition now. A blastocyst is definitely not a human, but an 8 month old fetus definitely is. Although there are some very complex interactive systems developing at the same time, making it incredibly difficult to objectively determine the collection of cells to human transition, the legalities of a woman controller her own body while respecting the rights and value of a foetal human has to be defined.

We are generally defined by our cognitive abilities.

Except that in our current society we allow fully formed people to die for the purpose of letting others keep their organs under their own ownership.

If my organs are mine to the point that I can deny someone already born access to them when without them they would die, it ceases to mater when exactly a fetus should be granted human rights in this particular debate as a case for abortion can still be made even if they are granted them from the moment of conception.

124 b_sharp  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 6:55:44pm

re: #112 allegro

I think the topic is a red herring since women don't seek termination of pregnancies late term unless there is a very good reason to do so.

I agree that they don't, but the point when a collection of cells becomes human still has to be defined.

125 allegro  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 6:56:52pm

re: #122 erik_t

In PIMF-hindsight, without any visible reply, I modified my statement. Please see above. Do you disagree that the equation is imprecise?

Define "imprecise." The basis of the argument is bodily autonomy and one's individual rights vs the rights of others to impose on that autonomy. Given that premise, I see the equation, as you call it, to be pretty close.

126 palomino  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 6:58:47pm

re: #91 BrainSurfer

Got to agree. I have a live and let alive approach to life.

But what I do feel strongly about is that there are those who glorify abortion, and brush off the mindnumbing number of abortions as if they are stats to be proud of.

Is it not possible that most of the celebration is not over dead fetuses, but rather that women have a choice to not deliver a rapist's baby, or their father/brother's baby, or just a baby they're not ready to care for because they want to pursue an education/grow up/whatever?

127 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 6:59:41pm

re: #121 darthstar

Tuh-may-toe, Tuh-mah-toe.

128 allegro  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 6:59:54pm

Must walk the pooches. BBIAB

129 erik_t  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 7:00:17pm

re: #125 allegro

Define "imprecise." The basis of the argument is bodily autonomy and one's individual rights vs the rights of others to impose on that autonomy. Given that premise, I see the equation, as you call it, to be pretty close.

You can never, ever donate more than two kidneys. But this is looking more and more like a clarification-turned-angry-argument and I do not have and never had that level of interest in the discussion.

130 jamesfirecat  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 7:02:27pm

re: #129 erik_t

You can never, ever donate more than two kidneys. But this is looking more and more like a clarification-turned-angry-argument and I do not have and never had that level of interest in the discussion.

I don't think it's really an "angry" argument myself things seem pretty calm compared to the comments flying around this morning/afternoon in my opinion.

131 erik_t  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 7:03:56pm

re: #130 jamesfirecat

I don't think it's really an "angry" argument myself things seem pretty calm compared to the comments flying around this morning/afternoon in my opinion.

My tenses suck. Prone-to-turn-into.

132 jaunte  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 7:04:15pm

Doctor Ron Paul discussing the "good principle" of secession:

Youtube Video
133 Only The Lurker Knows  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 7:04:48pm

Night Lizard.

134 freetoken  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 7:08:34pm

re: #124 b_sharp

I agree that they don't, but the point when a collection of cells becomes human still has to be defined.

"Human" - What does this mean?

Anyway, is not the development of the neocortex to a point where sensory perception can be remembered the division between what we would consider human cognizance?

135 jaunte  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 7:09:56pm

‏ @2house2fly
"The simplest explanation is usually Batman." - Arkham's Razor

136 b_sharp  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 7:12:15pm

re: #114 jamesfirecat

My analogy is important because it shows that we legally allow people to let other fully grown people die by denying them access to their organs.

If this is the case why can a mother not legally let her unborn child die by denying it access to her organs?

Yes, that's true, I cannot be coerced into saving the life of another human by removal and transfer of one of my organs. I can however, be charged with murder if I kill another human, so we obviously view not saving a life and actively taking a life differently. The positions of dependent/caregiver are important to us. We can deny an adult that is independent but we can't deny a child resources, or an adult for that matter, if there is a dependency relationship. If you starve your kid to death you are going to be charged. If you deny an independent fully capable adult food and he/she starves to death it's doubtful you would be charged.

A fetus is dependent on the host, the mother, throughout the development process. If the fetus has not transited to humanness (a bad word and a difficult concept) then there is no question. However once that fetus can claim humanness while still dependent on the mother then denying access to resources would be the same as starving a child.

137 jamesfirecat  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 7:12:41pm

re: #135 jaunte

‏ @2house2fly
"The simplest explanation is usually Batman." - Arkham's Razor

Actually I believe the original Arkham's Razor was "The simplest explanation is usually Cthulhu"

138 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 7:13:10pm

re: #135 jaunte

He's not very popular with the Occupy crowd.

139 jaunte  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 7:13:48pm

re: #138 Spаrtасus

Lies!

140 sagehen  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 7:14:39pm

re: #134 freetoken

"Human" - What does this mean?

Anyway, is not the development of the neocortex to a point where sensory perception can be remembered the division between what we would consider human cognizance?

At the end of a human life, there's general agreement between doctors, lawyers, clergy and lay people that brain activity is how we draw a line between "person" and "something that looks like a person but really isn't." That seems a fair criteria to use for the beginning of a human life as well.

141 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 7:14:50pm

re: #137 jamesfirecat

Actually I believe the original Arkham's Razor was "The simplest explanation is usually Cthulhu"

All your Spartacus are belong to me.

142 darthstar  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 7:16:12pm

Best Santorum gif yet...

Image: rick-santorum-doing-weird-action.gif

143 b_sharp  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 7:16:29pm

re: #115 allegro

Because sluts who don't keep their legs closed have no bodily rights after that, that's why.

//

No, women have rights to their bodies throughout the pregnancy, but at some point the fetus starts developing rights that have to be balanced against those of the mother. In physically/emotionally dangerous situations, the mother's rights should always supersede those of the fetus.

144 jamesfirecat  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 7:18:04pm

re: #136 b_sharp

Yes, that's true, I cannot be coerced into saving the life of another human by removal and transfer of one of my organs. I can however, be charged with murder if I kill another human, so we obviously view not saving a life and actively taking a life differently. The positions of dependent/caregiver are important to us. We can deny an adult that is independent but we can't deny a child resources, or an adult for that matter, if there is a dependency relationship. If you starve your kid to death you are going to be charged. If you deny an independent fully capable adult food and he/she starves to death it's doubtful you would be charged.

A fetus is dependent on the host, the mother, throughout the development process. If the fetus has not transited to humanness (a bad word and a difficult concept) then there is no question. However once that fetus can claim humanness while still dependent on the mother then denying access to resources would be the same as starving a child.

Well now we need to get into the issue of when/what causes a dependency relationship to be formed? For example claiming someone as a dependent on your taxes clearly does, but does the fact that a fetus chose to grow within your womb and rely on your organs and yours alone legally create such a relationship? I don't think it does any more than if you found yourself connected against your will to a living fully grown human being who needed to use you as a living dialysis machine.

145 Varek Raith  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 7:19:18pm

re: #142 darthstar

Best Santorum gif yet...

Image: rick-santorum-doing-weird-action.gif

You're doing it wrong!

146 darthstar  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 7:19:23pm

Heh...more Santorum

Image: tumblr_lxcg9iH20i1r9emtko1_500.jpg

More images here:
[Link: fucknoricksantorum.tumblr.com...]

147 b_sharp  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 7:21:40pm

re: #134 freetoken

"Human" - What does this mean?

Anyway, is not the development of the neocortex to a point where sensory perception can be remembered the division between what we would consider human cognizance?

Good question. That's why I said it needs to be defined. If I had a definition I would have stated it.

148 Amory Blaine  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 7:22:40pm

It's all about jobs!!!!!

149 Targetpractice  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 7:26:45pm

re: #143 b_sharp

No, women have rights to their bodies throughout the pregnancy, but at some point the fetus starts developing rights that have to be balanced against those of the mother. In physically/emotionally dangerous situations, the mother's rights should always supersede those of the fetus.

Let me slip into my Devil's Advocate robes for a sec and ask why does the fetus/baby/child/etc only have rights after a certain point? If the mother is smoking or drinking or doing drugs during the pregnancy, do we have to wait until she's been pregnant for so long before we can put a stop to it?

150 b_sharp  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 7:27:16pm

re: #140 sagehen

At the end of a human life, there's general agreement between doctors, lawyers, clergy and lay people that brain activity is how we draw a line between "person" and "something that looks like a person but really isn't." That seems a fair criteria to use for the beginning of a human life as well.

The development and death of a human are different. Development is a serious of processes dependent on the environment of the uterus and the expression of genes and regulatory sequences that is gradual and cumulative. Brain activity is not an on/off process. Death is the shutdown of dependent processes as other processes shut down. Brain activity is closer to an on/off switch at that point.

151 prairiefire  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 7:28:15pm

re: #146 darthstar

Heh...more Santorum

Image: tumblr_lxcg9iH20i1r9emtko1_500.jpg

More images here:
[Link: fucknoricksantorum.tumblr.com...]

It's like it's on a silver platter, or something. Keep talking, Jackwad.

152 allegro  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 7:29:10pm

re: #143 b_sharp

No, women have rights to their bodies throughout the pregnancy, but at some point the fetus starts developing rights that have to be balanced against those of the mother. In physically/emotionally dangerous situations, the mother's rights should always supersede those of the fetus.

Um, that was sarcasm as evidenced by the //

153 Amory Blaine  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 7:29:33pm

Possible Voter Fraud In Wisconsin!!!111!!!t!!yy

Youtube Video

:p

154 Digital Display  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 7:30:47pm

re: #147 b_sharp

Good question. That's why I said it needs to be defined. If I had a definition I would have stated it.

I know...This issue is so complex it is beyond understanding..
Yet..It is so simple..
Mothers have a right to choose no matter what...A woman controls life..From the beginning of time.. She is our mother...every little boy looks up to our mother.. She controls life...Men need to understand that...
After all, God couldn't even have Baby Jesus without a Mother...In all of this universe the woman controls and births life..So I find the discussion of abortion mute and without merit..

155 prairiefire  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 7:31:06pm

re: #146 darthstar

"Hey, Girl, I am the actual physical being brought to life of all that the lamestream media has been yammering about for 20 years."

156 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 7:32:19pm

re: #148 Amory Blaine

It's all about jobs!!!

For lawyers and lobbyists, maybe.
/half

157 Mocking Jay  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 7:32:50pm

re: #154 HoosierHoops

Excellent post. I really didn't expect that answer from you.

And it's "moot."

:-)

158 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 7:33:22pm

re: #153 Amory Blaine

If that's what it looks like, that's a pretty big fucking deal.

159 Amory Blaine  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 7:33:56pm

Yeah Mr. Voter ID..

It "appears" that it may be allowed as long as the absent voter is in the chamber. Although in this instance, IDK the surrounding circumstances. He sure looks like a kid caught in the cookie jar though.

160 Gus  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 7:36:44pm

re: #142 darthstar

Best Santorum gif yet...

Image: rick-santorum-doing-weird-action.gif

Oh yeah!

Image: rickgif1sdfsd.gif

161 b_sharp  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 7:42:08pm

re: #144 jamesfirecat

Well now we need to get into the issue of when/what causes a dependency relationship to be formed? For example claiming someone as a dependent on your taxes clearly does, but does the fact that a fetus chose to grow within your womb and rely on your organs and yours alone legally create such a relationship? I don't think it does any more than if you found yourself connected against your will to a living fully grown human being who needed to use you as a living dialysis machine.

The fetus didn't choose to grow in the uterus. A fetus is the result of two humans engaging in, usually, consensual intercourse. There isn't an absence of responsibility on either the father's or mother's part except in cases of forced intercourse. The mother's position is significantly different than the father's because it is her resources the developing fetus is using, and she is the one experiencing physical and emotional consequences.

To go to your analogy, if you were told there was a non-zero probability you would end up connected to somebody else feeding them blood if you engaged in a specific action, and the other person taking part in that action had no such consequence, what would your choice be?

That's why birth control is so important. T

162 Kragar  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 7:45:57pm

Rick Santorum winning more support from Republican women

163 b_sharp  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 7:46:37pm

re: #149 Targetpractice

Let me slip into my Devil's Advocate robes for a sec and ask why does the fetus/baby/child/etc only have rights after a certain point? If the mother is smoking or drinking or doing drugs during the pregnancy, do we have to wait until she's been pregnant for so long before we can put a stop to it?

That's why the issue is so difficult and without simple solutions. I think there has to be a cost/benefit analysis done on each situation before laws can be developed and that any law written is necessarily a compromise.

164 jamesfirecat  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 7:46:47pm

re: #161 b_sharp

The fetus didn't choose to grow in the uterus. A fetus is the result of two humans engaging in, usually, consensual intercourse. There isn't an absence of responsibility on either the father's or mother's part except in cases of forced intercourse. The mother's position is significantly different than the father's because it is her resources the developing fetus is using, and she is the one experiencing physical and emotional consequences.

To go to your analogy, if you were told there was a non-zero probability you would end up connected to somebody else feeding them blood if you engaged in a specific action, and the other person taking part in that action had no such consequence, what would your choice be?

That's why birth control is so important. T

I feel that REGARDLESS of what steps a woman does or doesn't take, only consenting to carry a child is her way of consenting to carry a child, even if she agrees to have sex without protection on a day when she is likely to be ovulating, that does not change things at all in my book.

You're much more likely to get mugged if you leave your home yet it is impractical in the extreme to expect people to spend their entire lives inside....

165 Decatur Deb  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 7:47:39pm

The TPGOP moves closer to a pro-ignorance platform plank:

Santorum: Obama wants to 'indoctrinate' students by boosting college enrollment

[Link: www.cbsnews.com...]

166 b_sharp  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 7:48:10pm

re: #152 allegro

Um, that was sarcasm as evidenced by the //

It still gave me an opportunity to make a point I would otherwise had to have jammed in elsewhere.

167 Kragar  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 7:48:51pm

re: #165 Decatur Deb

The TPGOP moves closer to a pro-ignorance platform plank:

Santorum: Obama wants to 'indoctrinate' students by boosting college enrollment

[Link: www.cbsnews.com...]

THAT EVIL BASTA...

Hold on a minute.

169 Lidane  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 7:50:13pm

re: #165 Decatur Deb

The TPGOP moves closer to a pro-ignorance platform plank:

Santorum: Obama wants to 'indoctrinate' students by boosting college enrollment

[Link: www.cbsnews.com...]

Moves closer? They went past a pro-ignorance plank a long time ago. Now they're going to run on a pro-Dark Ages platform.

170 Lidane  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 7:54:18pm

Principled severe conservative!

Romney Slams Santorum’s Support For Education Law He Also Supports

171 Targetpractice  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 7:54:25pm

re: #163 b_sharp

That's why the issue is so difficult and without simple solutions. I think there has to be a cost/benefit analysis done on each situation before laws can be developed and that any law written is necessarily a compromise.

The problem is that the other side doesn't want to compromise ever. They don't want abortions, period. So you're not going to get them to say "Okay, we'll allow abortions up to this point, but anything past that is off-limits." And assigning a fetus rights after a certain point in development invites the anti-choice crowd to lean in and go "Those rights are always there, from conception, and you can't say they don't exist until X weeks into the pregnancy!"

172 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 7:56:24pm

re: #165 Decatur Deb

Republican presidential candidate Rick Santorum said Thursday that President Obama wants more young adults to go to college so they can undergo "indoctrination" to a secular world view.

In an hour-long interview with conservative television host Glenn Beck, Santorum also defended his record on abortion and his vote in favor of President George W. Bush's No Child Left Behind education law.

On the president's efforts to boost college attendance, Santorum said, "I understand why Barack Obama wants to send every kid to college, because of their indoctrination mills, absolutely ... The indoctrination that is going on at the university level is a harm to our country."

He claimed that "62 percent of kids who go into college with a faith commitment leave without it," but declined to cite a source for the figure. And he floated the idea of requiring universities that receive public funds have "intellectual diversity" on campus.

:sigh: You just can't cure that kind of stupid.

173 Lidane  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 7:58:06pm

Freeper humor:

Actual Photograph of a Muslim Kissing a Pig (Google cache link)

Boy, that's a knee-slapper. Those libtards don't understand humor and satire like us conservatives do!

174 Decatur Deb  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 7:58:35pm

re: #172 Slumbering Behemoth

:sigh: You just can't cure that kind of stupid.

"Intellectual Diversity". Phrenology?

175 b_sharp  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 7:59:24pm

re: #164 jamesfirecat

I feel that REGARDLESS of what steps a woman does or doesn't take, only consenting to carry a child is her way of consenting to carry a child, even if she agrees to have sex without protection on a day when she is likely to be ovulating, that does not change things at all in my book.

You're much more likely to get mugged if you leave your home yet it is impractical in the extreme to expect people to spend their entire lives inside...

There is an implicit acceptance of having to deal with the consequences of having intercourse in the action of intercourse. Note I did not say there is implicit consent to carry a fetus. However if the woman, despite being empowered to abort the fetus at an early stage, decides to abort the fetus at a stage beyond the agreed to transition point, unless there are mitigating circumstances, can be considered to be implicitly consenting to carry the fetus.

176 ProGunLiberal  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 7:59:57pm

re: #173 Lidane

Someone is an asshole.

And I bet the person who posted that is similar in personality and look to Jabba the Hutt.

177 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 8:00:44pm

re: #174 Decatur Deb

"Intellectual Diversity". Phrenology?

It means that everyone is allowed and encouraged to talk about their personal relationship with Jesus Christ in their own words. As long as they're respectful.

178 jamesfirecat  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 8:01:09pm

re: #175 b_sharp

There is an implicit acceptance of having to deal with the consequences of having intercourse in the action of intercourse. Note I did not say there is implicit consent to carry a fetus. However if the woman, despite being empowered to abort the fetus at an early stage, decides to abort the fetus at a stage beyond the agreed to transition point, unless there are mitigating circumstances, can be considered to be implicitly consenting to carry the fetus.

That is reasonable.

But to me that "transition point" is in fact the point at which the Fetus is viable outside the mother's body, and thus while she can no longer have an abortion, she can induce labor and put the child up for adoption.

179 Targetpractice  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 8:03:40pm

re: #172 Slumbering Behemoth

:sigh: You just can't cure that kind of stupid.

"Intellectual diversity," that two-word phrase they drag around whenever they don't want to come out and say "religious brainwashing."

180 b_sharp  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 8:04:22pm

re: #171 Targetpractice

The problem is that the other side doesn't want to compromise ever. They don't want abortions, period. So you're not going to get them to say "Okay, we'll allow abortions up to this point, but anything past that is off-limits." And assigning a fetus rights after a certain point in development invites the anti-choice crowd to lean in and go "Those rights are always there, from conception, and you can't say they don't exist until X weeks into the pregnancy!"

I know, they come from a place of absolutes that ignores all of the difficult questions.

The whole situation is full of grey areas.

181 ProGunLiberal  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 8:05:06pm

What the hell is this?!?! I just saw this pop up on my feed:

182 b_sharp  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 8:05:35pm

re: #173 Lidane

Freeper humor:

Actual Photograph of a Muslim Kissing a Pig (Google cache link)

The only pigs are the ones thinking this is acceptable.

183 b_sharp  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 8:06:43pm

re: #178 jamesfirecat

That is reasonable.

But to me that "transition point" is in fact the point at which the Fetus is viable outside the mother's body, and thus while she can no longer have an abortion, she can induce labor and put the child up for adoption.

Viable with or without technological help?

184 jamesfirecat  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 8:07:37pm

re: #183 b_sharp

Viable with or without technological help?

With, which should be provided at government expense.

185 allegro  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 8:07:54pm

re: #181 ProGunLiberal

What the hell is this?!?! I just saw this pop up on my feed:

That's Jesus' General, one of the more brilliant satirists on the tubes.

186 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 8:09:33pm

This "higher education iz indoctrination mills" conspiracy theory is really getting tiresome. Do some young adults go off to college deeply conservative/religious, only to come out of the experience a liberal atheist? Sure, there may be a very small percentage that does.

But I think the more likely scenario is that they leave a home run by the deeply conservative/religious and find themselves in an environment where they are not threatened with the "While you're under my roof" crap for expressing their real thoughts and feelings, and now that they are free, and on a career path to independence, they no longer feel the need to be something they never truly were as the threat of homelessness no longer applies.

187 Targetpractice  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 8:10:32pm

re: #185 allegro

That's Jesus' General, one of the more brilliant satirists on the tubes.

The fodder for the post is a line towards the bottom of the Seattle Post-Intelligencer article he links to, where Cantwell's opponent in her reelection race declared she's unqualified to speak about birth control because she's unmarried.

That he was able to put together two sentences in anything other than grunts and belches is something we should truly applaud. Now let us watch as he shuffles back to 1952.

188 ProGunLiberal  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 8:10:40pm

re: #185 allegro

Unfortunately, they link to a very real article. In the article, this appears:

Cantwell has been singed by the issue. An opponent, state Sen. Michael Baumgartner, denounced her for signing a Senate letter arguing that the so-called "morning after" birth control pill should be available over the counter at pharmacies. Baumgartner said that Cantwell was not qualified to talk on the issue because she isn't married.

Baumgartner is a poor excuse for a human being.

189 b_sharp  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 8:12:31pm

I see I got no agreement at all with my points.

In that case you're all poopyheads and I'm going home.

190 Targetpractice  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 8:12:58pm

re: #186 Slumbering Behemoth

This "higher education iz indoctrination mills" conspiracy theory is really getting tiresome. Do some young adults go off to college deeply conservative/religious, only to come out of the experience a liberal atheist? Sure, there may be a very small percentage that does.

But I think the more likely scenario is that they leave a home run by the deeply conservative/religious and find themselves in an environment where they are not threatened with the "While you're under my roof" crap for expressing their real thoughts and feelings, and now that they are free, and on a career path to independence, they no longer feel the need to be something they never truly were as the threat of homelessness no longer applies.

Exactly. The problem isn't that they're being "indoctrinated," it's that they got off the leash mommy and daddy had had them on since birth and have started to express themselves in a manner that isn't "approved by the Church." Makes me wonder if Frothy's statement on this has something to do with experience with his own youngin's?

191 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 8:13:08pm

re: #189 b_sharp

Pulling an Olberman?

192 allegro  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 8:13:57pm

re: #187 Targetpractice

The fodder for the post is a line towards the bottom of the Seattle Post-Intelligencer article he links to, where Cantwell's opponent in her reelection race declared she's unqualified to speak about birth control because she's unmarried.

That he was able to put together two sentences in anything other than grunts and belches is something we should truly applaud. Now let us watch as he shuffles back to 1952.

From Jesus' General...

Dear Sen. Baumgartner,

Thank you for so eloquently stating what should be obvious to everyone: U.S. Sen. Maria Cantwell is "not qualified to talk on the issue [availability of contraceptives] because she isn't married."

Unmarried women are incapable of understanding the implications of allowing wide-spread, or even any, access to contraception. Without the benefit of a husband's wisdom, it is better that they leave such discussions to Catholic Bishops and others who have greater expertise in sexual matters.

I've got to go now. Ofjoshua is waiting to hear my decision regarding her pap smear.

Heterosexually yours,

Gen. JC Christian, patriot

Heh. Love that guy.

193 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 8:14:38pm

re: #190 Targetpractice

The irony in all this is that the only way children become religious is through early and frequent indoctrination at the hands of their family.

194 Lidane  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 8:15:40pm

re: #186 Slumbering Behemoth

This "higher education iz indoctrination mills" conspiracy theory is really getting tiresome.

It's the same mindset that led the church to rant and rail against the printing press. If you democratize ideas and knowledge and expose people to as wide a view as possible, your position of unquestioned authority is threatened.

These idiot fundie/wingnut parents think that if their kids go off to college and get them some fancy book learnin' they'll rebel against all that is good and right in the world and figure out that their parents are ignorant. We can't allow that, so higher education becomes an indoctrination camp. WTF.

195 ProGunLiberal  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 8:16:58pm

re: #193 Slumbering Behemoth

It's going to be SO uncomfortable if I ever have a family. I want to allow any children I have to have the same opportunity to figure stuff out for themselves religiously as I did.

Problem is, I don't know how to do that.

196 Targetpractice  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 8:18:04pm

re: #192 allegro

From Jesus' General...

Heh. Love that guy.

See ProLife's post below the one quoted. I understand the blog posted to was satire, but the subject of the satire really did say that a woman is unqualified to talk about contraception unless she's married.

And looking at the picture posted, this isn't something grey-haired old fart saying this, it's a young buck who looks like he's trying to get his first shot at federal office. My hope for the human race just got taken down another notch.

197 allegro  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 8:21:20pm

re: #196 Targetpractice

See ProLife's post below the one quoted. I understand the blog posted to was satire, but the subject of the satire really did say that a woman is unqualified to talk about contraception unless she's married.

And looking at the picture posted, this isn't something grey-haired old fart saying this, it's a young buck who looks like he's trying to get his first shot at federal office. My hope for the human race just got taken down another notch.

I knew that. And I think mocking, pointing and laughing at him is the best response to his statement.

198 jamesfirecat  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 8:21:58pm

Well folks I need to call it a night at this point thanks for the debate regardless of which side of it you were om/

199 ProGunLiberal  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 8:22:36pm

re: #196 Targetpractice

You've got an odd idea of young. I would think this guy is 35-40ish.

200 Lidane  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 8:25:42pm

re: #195 ProGunLiberal

It's going to be SO uncomfortable if I ever have a family. I want to allow any children I have to have the same opportunity to figure stuff out for themselves religiously as I did.

Problem is, I don't know how to do that.

Sure you do. You let them make friends across all religious backgrounds and let them study whatever they feel comfortable with while providing a solid example of right and wrong.

My vegetarian best friend cooks meat for her family, including her kids. She chose to give up meat in high school, but she wanted the kids to decide for themselves instead of her imposing it on them. The same principle applies. As long as you're open-minded enough to present multiple sides, your kids will be able to decide for themselves when they're old enough.

201 Lidane  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 8:26:43pm

Torquemada Jr. sez:

202 Targetpractice  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 8:27:08pm

re: #199 ProGunLiberal

You've got an odd idea of young. I would think this guy is 35-40ish.

Young's a relative term when talking about politics, especially when you consider that half of Congress looks like a retirement home, with some tracing their careers back to the days of Nixon and Goldwater. Depending on how one goes up the ladder, being 40 might get you labeled a "up-and-comer."

203 Sheila Broflovski  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 8:27:42pm

Here I am in New York for my baby girl's wedding.

The flight was horrible!
The car rental agency was horribiler!
The GPS sent us on NYC-cabbie-take-the-tourists-on-a-scenic-route through picturesque Williamsburg!

On top of all that, Zedushka has a compromised immune system and he's just not up to man-kissing and man-hugging a bunch of random wedding guests.

I will never, never fly spirit.com (aka fuckyouairlines.com) and never again use dollar car rental (aka fuckyoucarrental.com)

204 Targetpractice  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 8:28:08pm

re: #201 Lidane

Torquemada Jr. sez:

Guess there's not a web link to his ass. *rolls eyes*

205 allegro  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 8:29:14pm

re: #201 Lidane

Torquemada Jr. sez:

I feel greater pity for that man's children every day.

206 Digital Display  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 8:29:53pm

re: #200 Lidane

You always have great posts...
/I'm watching the Lakers and having a few..But I always enjoy reading what you say..Sorry..But it's the truth..

207 ProGunLiberal  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 8:30:18pm

re: #201 Lidane

The source was "Pulled Out of My Ass Institute."

In any case, one should think about their faith when one is older. The fact he is criticizing it shows he just how much of a snake he is. (I refuse to refer to Santorum as rat or pig. That is an insult to rats and pigs).

208 The Ghost of a Flea  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 8:30:54pm

re: #201 Lidane

Torquemada Jr. sez:

Santorum spews horseshit that he pulled out his ass. It's a Moebius loop of rectum-ness.

209 allegro  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 8:31:01pm

re: #207 ProGunLiberal

The source was "Pulled Out of My Ass Institute."

In any case, one should think about their faith when one is older. The fact he is criticizing it shows he just how much of a snake he is. (I refuse to refer to Santorum as rat or pig. That is an insult to rats and pigs).

Not real nice to snakes neither.

210 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 8:31:56pm

re: #194 Lidane

These idiot fundie/wingnut parents think that if their kids go off to college and get them some fancy book learnin' they'll rebel against all that is good and right in the world and figure out that their parents are ignorant.

I submit that these kids, much like myself, figured out that their parents are ignorant and credulous at a much earlier age, and only when they move away from the threat of severe and righteous retribution do they express their true thoughts and feelings.

211 Lidane  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 8:33:28pm

re: #206 HoosierHoops

You always have great posts...
/I'm watching the Lakers and having a few..But I always enjoy reading what you say..Sorry..But it's the truth..

Thanks! :)

212 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 8:33:38pm

re: #195 ProGunLiberal

It's going to be SO uncomfortable if I ever have a family. I want to allow any children I have to have the same opportunity to figure stuff out for themselves religiously as I did.

Problem is, I don't know how to do that.

I figure you'll do it the same way nearly every parent does anything. Totally fuck up, hope for the best, and wind up raising pretty decent kids regardless.

213 ProGunLiberal  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 8:33:51pm

re: #209 allegro

It's closer. Pigs are known for intelligence, and some research last year showed that rats have some form of empathy. Santorum has neither empathy or intelligence. He is a direct piece of evidence against the Intelligent Design he no doubt champions.

214 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 8:35:34pm

re: #6 ProGunLiberal

Thankfully, the Illinois Governor will shoot this down.

However, I would like to hear DF's explanation of this.

You want it, you've got it. Or actually, it's the Chicago Tribune's explanation for this, quoted directly from the article:

The legislation sponsored by state Democratic Rep. Thomas Morrison of Palatine would reclassify clinics that perform 50 abortions or more every year under regulations for certain outpatient surgery centers. The clinics would have to comply with the new standards by 2016.

State Rep. Joseph Lyons, D-Chicago, sponsored the bill that would require medical professionals to ask if a patient wants to see the ultrasound before an abortion, if an ultrasound was performed.

"The ultrasound would reveal the unborn baby before the abortion is performed," said Lyons. Under the legislation, women would have to fill out a form declining to see the ultrasound.

Rep. Deborah Mell, a Chicago Democrat, was one of the two members voting against the bills and criticized the assignment to a committee that generally handles farming issues.

"We're not talking about abortions for cows and pigs, right? We're talking about women?" she said.

The Agriculture Committee is dominated by downstate conservatives, and by assigning the bills there Democratic House Speaker Michael Madigan assured the measures would be heard by sympathetic legislators.

Note that both of the anti-abortion measures were sponsored by Democrats, one from the Chicago suburb of Palatine, and another from Chicago itself. The State House Speaker who sent it to the Agriculture Committee is a Democrat. These Democratic-sponsored anti-abortion measures passed the Ill. House Agriculture committee because both parties wanted them to, and not just downstate members from rural areas, the ultrasound provision was sponsored by a State Rep from Chicago.

215 funky chicken  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 8:35:58pm

re: #1 thedopefishlives

The Agricultural Committee? So now women are cattle?

/Half serious

Sheep.

216 Sheila Broflovski  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 8:36:09pm

The worst thing that has happened to me on this trip so far, I was getting out of the car and my foot got tangled up in the strap of my shoulder bag, which was in the footwell, and I pitched out the car head first on to the sidewalk!

Scraped my knee and my palms.

That sucked.

Also, fuckyoucarrentals.com did not have the Ford Escape that I requested, so they gave us a GMC Suburban which is the size of a freaking tanker! I said that was too big so they said "well the only other thing we have is a Cobalt." I said "that's cheaper, right?" They said "No it's actually more expensive but we'll give you a 'break' and let you have it for the same price as the SUV."

WHAT. THE. FUCK.

And the car rental agent was from New Jersey. They do not teach them about customer satisfaction there. Your CSAT survey will SUCK my dear.

217 Targetpractice  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 8:37:08pm

re: #207 ProGunLiberal

The source was "Pulled Out of My Ass Institute."

In any case, one should think about their faith when one is older. The fact he is criticizing it shows he just how much of a snake he is. (I refuse to refer to Santorum as rat or pig. That is an insult to rats and pigs).

He's criticizing it because the Church is criticizing, who's criticizing it because as Lidane pointed out, it stands in direct competition to their "authority." They've been losing touch with the faithful in recent decades, with a marked acceleration in light of their glacially slow response to the altar boy scandals.

They're just one more obsolete institution in this nation trying desperately to regain some measure of of control over their decline, in hopes that they can slow or even reverse it.

218 Lidane  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 8:38:46pm

re: #214 Dark_Falcon

So your response is to MBF the bill instead of arguing the merits?

Come on DF. You can do better than that.

219 Tigger2  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 8:39:21pm

Looks like the Republicans have forgot about the Government, now they want to shrink their party small enough to be drowned in a bathtub.

220 Lidane  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 8:40:21pm
221 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 8:41:01pm

re: #216 Learned Mother of Zion

Also, fuckyoucarrentals.com did not have the Ford Escape that I requested, so they gave us a GMC Suburban which is the size of a freaking tanker!

Instantly reminded me of this...

Youtube Video

I had a similar experience with U-Haul shortly before that episode aired, and I about split in half laughing at "I don't think you do".

222 funky chicken  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 8:41:31pm

re: #216 Learned Mother of Zion

You're driving a Suburban around NYC? Oh dear.

I've had pretty good luck with Avis and Hertz.

223 ProGunLiberal  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 8:42:00pm

re: #217 Targetpractice

Which is really sad, because Pope John XXIII seemed to be a fair bit friendlier to Birth Control.

But then his successor, Paul VI, went against the recommendation of the the commission (?) that his predecessor created.

And now we are here.

224 jaunte  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 8:42:49pm

Behind the [Heartland] Controversy, an Effort to Rewrite Curriculum on Climate Change

...beyond the controversy and the confession is the fact that Heartland does not deny what the two authentic documents obtained by Dr. Gleick reveal: that the institute is working to influence climate education in the schools.
...
Climate Scientist Gavin Schmidt on Heartland's consultant, David Wojick: “You have to be specially trained to be so blind.”

225 funky chicken  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 8:43:00pm

re: #220 Lidane

So, who does he think should pay for and regulate schools?

226 Targetpractice  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 8:43:55pm

re: #220 Lidane

Yeah, that was one of those big WTF moments in last night's debate, his nattering on about authority over schools should go back to the communities. If ever you wanted to drag this country back into the proverbial Dark Ages, that would be Step One.

227 Kragar  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 8:44:17pm

re: #225 funky chicken

So, who does he think should pay for and regulate schools?

I'm guessing he says homeschool and the Church.

228 Digital Display  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 8:44:17pm

So what did everybody give up for Lent this year?
It was easy for me when I was a kid.. Everybody was giving up candy...
Really?
Does anybody give up being an a*shole for Lent? Or just chocolate?

229 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 8:44:24pm

re: #214 Dark_Falcon

As a matter of fact, I believe the first "ultrasound rape bill" covered here at LGF was written and sponsored by a Democrat (female, no less), and sponsored and voted "Yea" for by many state Dems.

It just goes to show ya, black and white dichotomies don't work the way we think they should.

230 goddamnedfrank  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 8:44:37pm

re: #201 Lidane

Santorum's line is a highly deceptive half truth:

The number comes from a 2007 study published in the journal Social Forces looking at the relationship between education and religious faith.

But as it turns out, later in that same study, the authors came to the complete opposite conclusion: They found that 76 percent of kids who don’t go to college end up attending church less often, a higher percentage than those who do go to college. “Higher education,” as they put it, “is not the enemy of religiosity.”

231 Targetpractice  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 8:44:52pm

re: #228 HoosierHoops

So what did everybody give up for Lent this year?
It was easy for me when I was a kid.. Everybody was giving up candy...
Really?
Does anybody give up being an a*shole for Lent? Or just chocolate?

I gave up having a life by joining an MMORPG.

//

232 Sheila Broflovski  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 8:45:42pm

re: #222 funky chicken

You're driving a Suburban around NYC? Oh dear.

I've had pretty good luck with Avis and Hertz.

No we took the Cobalt. Which is a sucky car by the way. Wish we had just driven from Detroit.

Will rent from Enterprise from now on. They have always had good cars and excellent customer service.

Oh, and fly Delta.

233 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 8:46:02pm

re: #228 HoosierHoops

So what did everybody give up for Lent this year?

Catholicism. No, wait. That was back in '97.

/full disclosure: I was never a Catholic.

234 allegro  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 8:46:03pm

re: #228 HoosierHoops

So what did everybody give up for Lent this year?
It was easy for me when I was a kid.. Everybody was giving up candy...
Really?
Does anybody give up being an a*shole for Lent? Or just chocolate?

I'm so devout that I give up 2 things: abstinence and dieting. ;)

235 Lidane  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 8:46:03pm

re: #228 HoosierHoops

So what did everybody give up for Lent this year?
It was easy for me when I was a kid.. Everybody was giving up candy...
Really?
Does anybody give up being an a*shole for Lent? Or just chocolate?

I gave up Catholicism for Lent many years ago.

I've managed to stick to it.

236 jaunte  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 8:46:18pm

re: #228 HoosierHoops

I gave up meat. Not for Lent, just to see if I could do it.

237 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 8:46:37pm

re: #229 Slumbering Behemoth

As a matter of fact, I believe the first "ultrasound rape bill" covered here at LGF was written and sponsored by a Democrat (female, no less), and sponsored and voted "Yea" for by many state Dems.

It just goes to show ya, black and white dichotomies don't work the way we think they should.

Damn it! Foiled again in my attempt to divide humanity into 'us' and 'them' along easily determined lines!

238 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 8:47:15pm

re: #218 Lidane

So your response is to MBF the bill instead of arguing the merits?

Come on DF. You can do better than that.

The bill was introduced by Democrats and assigned by Mike Madigan to a committee whose Republican members are from downstate rural areas. Presented with this legislation, they voted the wishes of their constituents, which meant they voted to approve the legislation. They could hardly have done otherwise, given that the Democrats were the prime movers in bringing the legislation up. For Republicans to fail to pass a bill in such circumstances would be to allow Democrats to claim to be more pro-life than they, following which said Republicans would face primary challenges.

239 Targetpractice  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 8:47:36pm

re: #232 Learned Mother of Zion

No we took the Cobalt. Which is a sucky car by the way. Wish we had just driven from Detroit.

Yeah, that was the review my folks gave when they rented one a couple years back for a road trip to visit my grandmother. Anybody who tells you that it was the unions that sank Detroit needs to drive one of the pre-bailout wonders from those hallowed halls and then tell me with a straight face that its the best car they've ever driven. And points will be deducted if it's a Ford product they pick.

240 Romantic Heretic  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 8:47:42pm

re: #13 Killgore Trout

Maryland Republican: Meeting gay couples left me 'changed person'

If you are blinded by hate you'll never see.

Did you see one of the comments? I've rarely seen so much derp concentrated in such a small place.

241 Lidane  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 8:48:55pm

re: #238 Dark_Falcon

That's all well and good, DF.

Now explain why a bill about abortion is moving through the Agricultural Committee. WTF. Illinois doesn't have some sort of Health & Human Services Committee? That would at least make more sense.

242 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 8:49:27pm

re: #218 Lidane

"It's a fact. And there is no Magical Balance Fairy in a fact".

- Christopher Lee, paraphrased

243 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 8:50:12pm

re: #229 Slumbering Behemoth

As a matter of fact, I believe the first "ultrasound rape bill" covered here at LGF was written and sponsored by a Democrat (female, no less), and sponsored and voted "Yea" for by many state Dems.

It just goes to show ya, black and white dichotomies don't work the way we think they should.

True that.

244 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 8:51:47pm

re: #228 HoosierHoops

So what did everybody give up for Lent this year?
It was easy for me when I was a kid.. Everybody was giving up candy...
Really?
Does anybody give up being an a*shole for Lent? Or just chocolate?

I actually am giving up chocolate for Lent. It's measurable, while being an asshole is subjective.

245 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 8:51:54pm

re: #236 jaunte

I gave up meat.

That's not what your pimp told me.
/:rimshot:

246 HappyWarrior  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 8:53:08pm

OT but Rick Santorum is apparently upset because the president wants everyone having the chance at college.
[Link: www.cbsnews.com...]
W-T-F.

247 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 8:53:30pm

re: #243 Dark_Falcon

That said, I have no love for the GOP. But being selective about our facts is not a measured, objective approach to any issue.

248 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 8:54:28pm

re: #241 Lidane

That's all well and good, DF.

Now explain why a bill about abortion is moving through the Agricultural Committee. WTF. Illinois doesn't have some sort of Health & Human Services Committee? That would at least make more sense.

Because Mike Madigan assigns bills to the committee he wants to assign them to. He likely wanted to throw some pro-life Democrats a bone.

249 Digital Display  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 8:54:39pm

re: #235 Lidane

I gave up Catholicism for Lent many years ago.

I've managed to stick to it.

I was adopted into being a Catholic..My dad made Mel Gibson look like a lightweight.. I am that Catholic boy that wanted to be the best Altar boy in the world and ended up running as far as fast as I could..

250 jaunte  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 8:54:41pm

re: #246 HappyWarrior

...he floated the idea of requiring universities that receive public funds have "intellectual diversity" on campus.

Teach the Controversy!

251 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 8:55:14pm

I'm going to give up coffee, tea, and alcohol for Lent.

252 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 8:55:25pm

re: #237 SanFranciscoZionist

Damn it! Foiled again in my attempt to divide humanity into 'us' and 'them' along easily determined lines!

Youtube Video

:smooch:

253 Targetpractice  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 8:55:40pm

re: #251 To hold my temper, most of the time.

I'm going to give up coffee, tea, and alcohol for Lent.

Suck all the fun outta life, why don't ya?

//

254 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 8:56:03pm

re: #251 To hold my temper, most of the time.

That's cheating!

255 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 8:56:36pm

re: #253 Targetpractice

Suck all the fun outta life, why don't ya?

//

Oh, yeah, and tobacco.

You actually wouldn't like me when I'm on caffeine.

"I'll have a large anxiety attack with a side order of bouncing off the walls."

256 funky chicken  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 8:56:52pm

re: #251 To hold my temper, most of the time.

I wouldn't make it out of bed without caffeine.

257 Kragar  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 8:56:55pm

Memo to Santorum: Homeschooling not a viable or best option for all parents

Every time I hear Republican presidential candidate Rick Santorum talk about how the real responsibility for a child’s education lies with parents and how he has homeschooled his own children, I think: “Well, how nice for him.”

How nice for Santorum that he is in a financial position that he and his wife can stay home long enough to educate their children in the manner they choose. (For a brief period most of his children were enrolled in a Pennsylvania cyber school, but a dispute over who would pay the tuition led the Santorums to resume homeschooling them.)

How nice for Santorum’s children that they have parents who understand the importance of education and have the wherewithal to ensure that they, too, are schooled.

But nowhere in Santorum’s vision of education for America’s children does one hear what his plans are for those children whose parents want their children well educated but don’t have the time to stay home with them and homeschool because they must work one or two or three jobs to put food on the table.

Considering that 22 percent of American children now live at or below the poverty line — and that’s not including those who hover just above it — we’re talking about a lot of kids.

258 jaunte  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 8:57:02pm

I'll agree, to give up tea, forever.
And beets.

259 Lidane  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 8:57:32pm

re: #249 HoosierHoops

I am that Catholic boy that wanted to be the best Altar boy in the world and ended up running as far as fast as I could..

And I'm the Catholic girl who wanted to be a priest when I was little only to realize that I was always going to be considered inferior in the Church. Now I'm an atheist who hasn't set foot in a church in two decades, aside from weddings and funerals and a few random services here and there with my mom.

260 Targetpractice  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 8:57:52pm

re: #255 To hold my temper, most of the time.

Oh, yeah, and tobacco.

You actually wouldn't like me when I'm on caffeine.

"I'll have a large anxiety attack with a side order of bouncing off the walls."

My natural state is a mild level of caffeination. Too little and I'm lethargic, too much and I'm twitchy.

261 funky chicken  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 8:58:37pm

re: #255 To hold my temper, most of the time.

Hey, throw in cheating on your husband, just to add something actually immoral.

:-)

Beating your children?

262 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 8:59:46pm

re: #261 funky chicken

Hey, throw in cheating on your husband, just to add something actually immoral.

:-)

Beating your children?

Actually, only my husband beats them. I'm too soft hearted. Also, I'm afraid that if I beat them, they won't play me any more. He thinks they need to learn to lose.

263 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 8:59:56pm

re: #261 funky chicken

Hey, throw in cheating on your husband, just to add something actually immoral.

:-)

Beating your children?

Emmmie has inspired my husband to give up both crack cocaine AND amphetamines for Lent.

264 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 9:00:18pm

re: #263 SanFranciscoZionist

Emmmie has inspired my husband to give up both crack cocaine AND amphetamines for Lent.

I'm so proud.

265 funky chicken  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 9:01:01pm

re: #258 jaunte

OK, fine. I give up eating organ meats for Lent. And caviar. And undercooked chicken.

I feel ... hmm. No different. Oh well. I'll have to take another path to enlightenment.

266 goddamnedfrank  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 9:01:06pm

re: #229 Slumbering Behemoth

As a matter of fact, I believe the first "ultrasound rape bill" covered here at LGF was written and sponsored by a Democrat (female, no less), and sponsored and voted "Yea" for by many state Dems.

It just goes to show ya, black and white dichotomies don't work the way we think they should.

You couldn't be more wrong. The first bill covered here was Oklahoma's. It was written by Republicans and the linked article states:

Republican lawmakers said they would try to override Henry's vetoes. For technical reasons, that would require 75 percent of both houses to vote against the governor.

The bill was sponsored by a male Republican:

State Sen. Anthony Sykes (R-Moore), the bill's sponsor, said the measure was designed to provide women with additional information before having an abortion.

The thing is SB, Dark_Falcon feeds off this kind of ignorant horse shit.

re: #243 Dark_Falcon

True that.

See what I mean.

(Edited to fix first link.)

267 Interesting Times  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 9:01:09pm

re: #228 HoosierHoops

So what did everybody give up for Lent this year?

268 HappyWarrior  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 9:02:19pm

re: #257 Kragar

Memo to Santorum: Homeschooling not a viable or best option for all parents

The homeschool advocates never ever bring up what that article brings up about parents who want their children well educated but don't have the time to stay home to do it. Honestly, here's why I like public and even private education outside the home. I think it helps kids socially. One of my big problems with homeschooling isn't even education related but related more to the fact that I feel it shelters kids socially. Two, kids need to hear ideas from authority figures that are not their parents or relatives. Santorum would probably interpret this as "indoctrinating" but it's really hearing someone who isn't Mom or Dad offer an opinion. And thirdly some parents just aren't cut out to be teachers. My parents were great parents but I wouldn't want them teaching me and my brothers what we needed for college. Really the anti educator mindset that Santorum has is an alarming one.

269 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 9:03:02pm

re: #247 Slumbering Behemoth

That said, I have no love for the GOP. But being selective about our facts is not a measured, objective approach to any issue.

That's fine, because I know you've got your eyes open.

270 funky chicken  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 9:03:08pm

re: #267 Interesting Times

Ech. The whining liberals are almost as annoying as the Palinites for me.

271 funky chicken  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 9:03:56pm

Anyhoo, off to bed for me. G'night everybody!

272 Targetpractice  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 9:04:02pm

re: #257 Kragar

Memo to Santorum: Homeschooling not a viable or best option for all parents

I always get a kick out of politicians who tell me how "easy" it is to do all the things they do in their lives, as though every American is independently wealthy. This is part of the reason for the dysfunction in our government, people holding elected office who haven't a clue what the average man has to do to survive.

273 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 9:04:04pm

re: #268 HappyWarrior

The homeschool advocates never ever bring up what that article brings up about parents who want their children well educated but don't have the time to stay home to do it. Honestly, here's why I like public and even private education outside the home. I think it helps kids socially. One of my big problems with homeschooling isn't even education related but related more to the fact that I feel it shelters kids socially. Two, kids need to hear ideas from authority figures that are not their parents or relatives. Santorum would probably interpret this as "indoctrinating" but it's really hearing someone who isn't Mom or Dad offer an opinion. And thirdly some parents just aren't cut out to be teachers. My parents were great parents but I wouldn't want them teaching me and my brothers what we needed for college. Really the anti educator mindset that Santorum has is an alarming one.

Youtube Video
274 goddamnedfrank  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 9:05:21pm

re: #266 goddamnedfrank

First link fixed in edit, reload comment for the correct one.

275 CuriousLurker  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 9:06:49pm

re: #240 Romantic Heretic

Did you see one of the comments? I've rarely seen so much derp concentrated in such a small place.

Are you talking about this loon? You must be. He had a comment in another article and—aside from everything & everyone being involved in a conspiracy against white people—he thinks David Duke should be president.

276 SpaceJesus  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 9:08:24pm

BBC taken out of context

Youtube Video
277 HappyWarrior  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 9:08:56pm

re: #273 To hold my temper, most of the time.

[Embedded content]

Okay, I admit that I probably stereotyped a little but I still have my problems with homeschooling. I don't think it should be illegal but at the same time, I'd never homeschool my own kids. I also have to admit to being irked at laws attempting to allow homeschooled kids to play athletes for the local schools since I feel that spots on school teams should be reversed to those who are part of the school's community.

278 goddamnedfrank  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 9:09:44pm

re: #269 Dark_Falcon

That's fine, because I know you've got your eyes open.

You said "true that" to a total lie then down dinged the truth when I showed it to you. That's who you are.

279 Mocking Jay  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 9:10:09pm

re: #275 CuriousLurker

That goes far beyond the bounds of derp.

280 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 9:10:24pm

re: #263 SanFranciscoZionist

I'm giving up sobriety for lent.

Aw shit, never mind. Did that in '97 as well.

281 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 9:10:26pm

re: #277 HappyWarrior

Okay, I admit that I probably stereotyped a little but I still have my problems with homeschooling. I don't think it should be illegal but at the same time, I'd never homeschool my own kids. I also have to admit to being irked at laws attempting to allow homeschooled kids to play athletes for the local schools since I feel that spots on school teams should be reversed to those who are part of the school's community.

What about allowing kids to transfer to a different high school to play on a different team? I'm watching that happen right now.

282 ProGunLiberal  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 9:10:35pm

re: #275 CuriousLurker

I tried to read it, but there was too much caps lock.

283 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 9:11:40pm

re: #266 goddamnedfrank

Your insult was unwarranted, Frank. I haven't DERPed at all tonight, all I did was answer a question by quoting the relevant article. My 'true that' was principally a response to this line by SB: "It just goes to show ya, black and white dichotomies don't work the way we think they should."

284 Targetpractice  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 9:11:53pm

re: #281 To hold my temper, most of the time.

What about allowing kids to transfer to a different high school to play on a different team? I'm watching that happen right now.

Let me guess, trying to get picked to play on a "winning team" in hopes of getting a scholarship right out of high school?

285 freetoken  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 9:12:59pm

re: #272 Targetpractice

Many parents who homeschool are not wealthy at all.

To me the larger issue isn't one of affordability, if by that we mean up-front costs.

The bigger problem is simply that many parents themselves have such limited formal education, or simply lack knowledge, or (as seen in cases such as creationism) have a bias about subjects so great that real knowledge gets distorted beyond recognition - all of which hamstring their children who are supposed to learn from them.

On the plus side it's quite clear that children benefit greatly from the additional attention from their parents.

286 HappyWarrior  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 9:13:23pm

re: #281 To hold my temper, most of the time.

What about allowing kids to transfer to a different high school to play on a different team? I'm watching that happen right now.

I'd have to think about that. I don't know. I just think if you're going to play for a high school, you should be contributing by being part of that school's community somehow and I think it's unfair to the other kids who have to maintain a certain GPA to stay on the team.I mean I don't want to punish kids who like to play sports but at the same time, I just feel that what I described is a problem. I don't think homeschooled kids are idiots and if I implied that, I didn't mean that but I just have an aversion to it based on my experiences as a kid.

287 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 9:14:54pm

re: #284 Targetpractice

Let me guess, trying to get picked to play on a "winning team" in hopes of getting a scholarship right out of high school?

As a pushed-up Freshman (she would actually be in 8th grade) she just won a state title.

288 CuriousLurker  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 9:15:16pm

re: #279 The Most Interesting Man in My World

That goes far beyond the bounds of derp.

re: #282 ProGunLiberal

I tried to read it, but there was too much caps lock.

Weapons grade crazy.

289 goddamnedfrank  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 9:15:34pm

re: #283 Dark_Falcon

Your insult was unwarranted, Frank. I haven't DERPed at all tonight, all I did was answer a question by quoting the relevant article. My 'true that' was principally a response to this line by SB: "It just goes to show ya, black and white dichotomies don't work the way we think they should."

What "goes to show ya"? The total lie. The sentiment you approved of was based on a clearly and demonstrably untrue statement. It's all false.

290 freetoken  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 9:16:11pm

For those who are following the current brouhaha over sex and education and policies and how that is playing out in the GOP socon agenda, the American Journal of Preventative Medicine just recently published a CDC funded survey of sex education strategies.

It has stirred up the abstinence-only crowd since the CDC study essentially dismissed abstinence-only as inferior to a broader approach to sex education.

291 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 9:16:38pm

I should make it clear that my opinion is that with a talent like this young lady's, her parents should do what is best for her.

292 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 9:18:26pm

re: #277 HappyWarrior

Okay, I admit that I probably stereotyped a little but I still have my problems with homeschooling. I don't think it should be illegal but at the same time, I'd never homeschool my own kids. I also have to admit to being irked at laws attempting to allow homeschooled kids to play athletes for the local schools since I feel that spots on school teams should be reversed to those who are part of the school's community.

I'd love to homeschool. Doubt we'll ever be able to afford to do it.

293 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 9:19:36pm

re: #292 SanFranciscoZionist

I'd love to homeschool. Doubt we'll ever be able to afford to do it.

You'd be terrific at it. Enthusiasm is 80% of the battle. Well, that and having been educated before you started.

294 ProGunLiberal  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 9:20:02pm

re: #288 CuriousLurker

Honestly, that amount of Caps Lock gives me a headache.

295 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 9:20:27pm

re: #294 ProGunLiberal

Honestly, that amount of Caps Lock gives me a headache.

WHY!!! WHAT IS YOUR PROBLEM!?!?!

296 Targetpractice  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 9:20:37pm

re: #291 To hold my temper, most of the time.

I should make it clear that my opinion is that with a talent like this young lady's, her parents should do what is best for her.

Her parents should let her decide, if she's as smart as it appears she is. If it's her ambition, then they should support her. I've seen too many kids broken by overzealous parents deciding what was "best for them."

297 CuriousLurker  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 9:21:03pm

re: #294 ProGunLiberal

Honestly, that amount of Caps Lock gives me a headache.

Yeah, me too. I didn't read every word, just sort of skimmed it real quick.

298 HappyWarrior  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 9:21:26pm

re: #296 Targetpractice

Her parents should let her decide, if she's as smart as it appears she is. If it's her ambition, then they should support her. I've seen too many kids broken by overzealous parents deciding what was "best for them."

The latter is what I worry about honestly.

299 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 9:21:48pm

re: #296 Targetpractice

Her parents should let her decide, if she's as smart as it appears she is. If it's her ambition, then they should support her. I've seen too many kids broken by overzealous parents deciding what was "best for them."

Transferring schools is something parents have to drive.

I believe she loves doing what she does, though, and she likes being around kids older than herself.

300 Interesting Times  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 9:22:07pm

re: #297 CuriousLurker

Yeah, me too. I didn't read every word, just sort of skimmed it real quick.

So did I, but my eyes still hurt o_O

301 prairiefire  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 9:22:53pm

re: #290 freetoken

For those who are following the current brouhaha over sex and education and policies and how that is playing out in the GOP socon agenda, the American Journal of Preventative Medicine just recently published a CDC funded survey of sex education strategies.

It has stirred up the abstinence-only crowd since the CDC study essentially dismissed abstinence-only as inferior to a broader approach to sex education.

Again.

302 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 9:23:01pm

re: #266 goddamnedfrank

You couldn't be more wrong.

Well, no, I could be more wrong. I was wrong about it being the first one covered here, but not wrong about a similar bill written by a female Dem and co-sponsered by other state dems.

303 Targetpractice  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 9:23:03pm

re: #298 HappyWarrior

The latter is what I worry about honestly.

I worry because I've seen the result. Little walking stress balls, who put on a good public face but in private worry themselves to ribbons that they're not living up to the high expectations that mommy and daddy have put on their shoulders.

304 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 9:23:51pm

re: #303 Targetpractice

I worry because I've seen the result. Little walking stress balls, who put on a good public face but in private worry themselves to ribbons that they're not living up to the high expectations that mommy and daddy have put on their shoulders.

The Princess just got her first B.

We all survived.

305 jaunte  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 9:24:12pm

Republican stance on birth control driving women voters to Obama

It’s hard to fathom why the Republicans would want to launch a sustained assault on birth control, align themselves with the most conservative voices in the Catholic Church and thereby risk alienating women voters in November.
...
Candidate Obama won 56 percent of women voters, and a new Pew Research Center poll says that incumbent Obama would win 59 percent in a match with Mitt Romney.

306 prairiefire  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 9:24:50pm

re: #303 Targetpractice

I agree, I think it has led to a rise in self-harming behavior for the kids. I don't understand the parent's competitive drive. It is like their kids are extensions of themselves.

307 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 9:25:09pm

re: #289 goddamnedfrank

What "goes to show ya"? The total lie. The sentiment you approved of was based on a clearly and demonstrably untrue statement. It's all false.

Not false, not a total lie, but a mistake of memory on my part. There are Democrats out there that write and co-sponsor, and vote for anti-choice bills.

308 ProGunLiberal  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 9:25:34pm

re: #297 CuriousLurker

I couldn't even skim it.

309 Targetpractice  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 9:25:55pm

re: #304 To hold my temper, most of the time.

The Princess just got her first B.

We all survived.

Yeah, I can't say as I ever did that well. Think almost every teacher I had from my first year to my last said the same thing at one time or another: "He's got so much potential, but he just doesn't apply himself."

310 Interesting Times  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 9:26:04pm

So who was it here who said Santorum reminded them of a certain classic SNL character? ;)

311 HappyWarrior  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 9:26:16pm

Anyhow, my experience with homeschool kids comes from a neighborhood friend who I think could have benefited from the I.E.P program that the public schools here offer. I benefited from this myself.

312 jaunte  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 9:26:17pm

re: #309 Targetpractice

Ah, memories.

313 ProGunLiberal  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 9:27:18pm

Interesting news involving Syria:

314 jaunte  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 9:27:26pm

re: #309 Targetpractice

"He's always looking out the window during class."

315 SpaceJesus  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 9:27:29pm

Often times older people don't see the social maladjustments in younger people who appear clean-cut and polite on the surface. It takes a peer's perspective to see it, which is why I oppose homeschooling 100%.

316 CuriousLurker  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 9:27:56pm

re: #300 Interesting Times

So did I, but my eyes still hurt o_O

Think about it: Someone actually lives next door to this guy.

Frickin' internet. Makes me wonder how many "normal" looking people I encounter every day who are actually totally unhinged freaks that only let their flags fly online.

317 Flavia  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 9:27:58pm

re: #13 Killgore Trout

If you are blinded by hate you'll never see.

I'm betting Kach was looking for something to "change his mind" now that public opinion is getting so loud.

318 ProGunLiberal  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 9:28:55pm

Australia is also having some oddities.

319 Targetpractice  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 9:28:56pm

re: #314 jaunte

"He's always looking out the window during class."

Nah, with me, it was always reading a book I'd brought to class, usually a science fiction novel. Teachers had to make a habit of yanking them out of my hands to get me to focus on the lesson. That's when I wasn't nodding off.

320 jaunte  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 9:29:45pm

re: #319 Targetpractice

I had that experience too. Reading with a book on my lap, under the desk.

321 HappyWarrior  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 9:31:56pm

My problem was as someone with Asperger's, I'd do incredible and do very well in what I was great at in and into but would get bored at what I wasn't. This is why I think my kid brother is a better student and smarter than I was. He's able to focus his attention on to fields he may not necessary like e.g. mathematics but able to do so nonetheless. I couldn't do that. I also was on concerta for the longest time too due to my ADHD.

322 goddamnedfrank  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 9:32:53pm

re: #307 Slumbering Behemoth

Not false, not a total lie, but a mistake of memory on my part. There are Democrats out there that write and co-sponsor, and vote for anti-choice bills.

It's still magical balance fairy crap. These bills don't pass legislatures with anything close to majority Dem support, and if one has been written by a Dem that information hasn't been presented thus far. So far I see one instance of two Dem Ag committee members in Illinois as sponsors, both men, that's it.

If you're going to make a highly specific assertion like you did earlier, stating that the first such bill ever discussed here was authored by a female Democrat, it needs to be backed up.

323 ProGunLiberal  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 9:34:15pm

re: #321 HappyWarrior

That's the same story here, almost to a tee.

324 CarleeCork  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 9:34:53pm

re: #21 Lidane

The only reason to even consider abortion that far into a pregnancy is if the child is going to die anyway, or if there's some horrific deformity or something. I can't imagine people getting that far into a pregnancy and deciding to abort for the lulz.

DUH!!!!!

325 HappyWarrior  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 9:35:12pm

re: #323 ProGunLiberal

That's the same story here, almost to a tee.

We are the few, the proud, the humanities based Aspie :D.

326 Targetpractice  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 9:36:07pm

re: #321 HappyWarrior

My problem was as someone with Asperger's, I'd do incredible and do very well in what I was great at in and into but would get bored at what I wasn't. This is why I think my kid brother is a better student and smarter than I was. He's able to focus his attention on to fields he may not necessary like e.g. mathematics but able to do so nonetheless. I couldn't do that. I also was on concerta for the longest time too due to my ADHD.

My sister and I were night and day when it came to subjects in school. She had to get tutoring to read in her early years, while by 4th grade I was reading at a college level. But she grasped mathematics easily while I still stumble over anything more complicated than basic algebra. The only subject we both had no problem with was history, or rather we had no problem with facts but dates always tripped us up.

327 CarleeCork  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 9:37:42pm

Let's see a man pass a melon through his Ass every 14 months and then talk about abortion.

328 Targetpractice  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 9:38:24pm

re: #327 CarleeCork

Let's see a man pass a melon through his Ass every 14 months and then talk about abortion.

...can I get a raincheck on that?

329 goddamnedfrank  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 9:40:20pm

re: #302 Slumbering Behemoth

Well, no, I could be more wrong. I was wrong about it being the first one covered here, but not wrong about a similar bill written by a female Dem and co-sponsered by other state dems.

Again, this is a highly specific claim, where is the evidence for this? I'm not saying it doesn't exist, I'm saying I've never heard of it and you haven't produced any in this thread.

330 austin_blue  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 9:40:53pm

We've got a functional definition of human death- no functioning cerebral cortex.

Who wants to be a vivisectionist?

Why isn't this a reasonable definition of human life?

331 CarleeCork  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 9:40:59pm

re: #328 Targetpractice

...can I get a raincheck on that?

.....nope.

332 Shvaughn  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 9:43:56pm

re: #187 Targetpractice

The fodder for the post is a line towards the bottom of the Seattle Post-Intelligencer article he links to, where Cantwell's opponent in her reelection race declared she's unqualified to speak about birth control because she's unmarried.

That he was able to put together two sentences in anything other than grunts and belches is something we should truly applaud. Now let us watch as he shuffles back to 1952.

He's dogwhistling that she's a ZOMG lesbian.

333 freetoken  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 9:44:19pm

re: #330 austin_blue

We've got a functional definition of human death- no functioning cerebral cortex.

Who wants to be a vivisectionist?

Why isn't this a reasonable definition of human life?

I asked earlier about the development of the neocortex as important in defining when a fetus ought to be abort-able or not.

It doesn't however solve the question for those who argue that the development process itself is special - that is, that after conception there is something so unique to the development of the organism that the criteria used later in life don't apply.

334 Targetpractice  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 9:45:33pm

re: #332 Shvaughn

He's dogwhistling that she's a ZOMG lesbian.

That or a spinster who'd have no use for contraception.

335 Shvaughn  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 9:46:55pm

re: #214 Dark_Falcon

Note that both of the anti-abortion measures were sponsored by Democrats, one from the Chicago suburb of Palatine, and another from Chicago itself. The State House Speaker who sent it to the Agriculture Committee is a Democrat. These Democratic-sponsored anti-abortion measures passed the Ill. House Agriculture committee because both parties wanted them to, and not just downstate members from rural areas, the ultrasound provision was sponsored by a State Rep from Chicago.

Anti-choice Democrats are assholes too.

336 austin_blue  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 9:47:29pm

re: #327 CarleeCork

Let's see a man pass a melon through his Ass every 14 months and then talk about abortion.

Curt Coltrane was an old high school buddy of mine. His mom described childbirth as shitting a pineapple, points down.

337 Shvaughn  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 9:48:47pm

re: #230 goddamnedfrank

Santorum's line is a highly deceptive half truth:

Politifact would rate it "mostly true."

338 CuriousLurker  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 9:51:59pm

re: #290 freetoken

For those who are following the current brouhaha over sex and education and policies and how that is playing out in the GOP socon agenda, the American Journal of Preventative Medicine just recently published a CDC funded survey of sex education strategies.

It has stirred up the abstinence-only crowd since the CDC study essentially dismissed abstinence-only as inferior to a broader approach to sex education.

Heh, abstinence-only. That just isn't gonna work well what with all the raging hormones Reminds me of something I saw last night:

It is easier to guard a sack full of fleas than a girl in love.
—Jewish proverb

339 CarleeCork  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 9:52:41pm

re: #336 austin_blue

Curt Coltrane was an old high school buddy of mine. His mom described childbirth as shitting a pineapple, points down.

I've birthed two and I'm not sure that's accurate. I felt more like I was passing a melon.

Men should imagine passing a small melon. Shitting a pineapple implies hemorrhoids.

340 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 9:52:50pm

re: #322 goddamnedfrank

It's still magical balance fairy crap. These bills don't pass legislatures with anything close to majority Dem support, and if one has been written by a Dem that information hasn't been presented thus far. So far I see one instance of two Dem Ag committee members in Illinois as sponsors, both men, that's it.

Stating that Democrats have authored/co-sponsored/voted for anti-choice bills is not MBF crap. It's just stating a fact.

Also, I did not claim that such things get majority Dem support, only that some Dem support does exist.

If you're going to make a highly specific assertion like you did earlier, stating that the first such bill ever discussed here was authored by a female Democrat, it needs to be backed up.

I'll dig through the archives here to see if I can find it, but it was a while ago. The reason that instance sticks out in my mind is because someone on that thread started in with the "cry wolf" MBF tactic when someone brought up dem involvement without reading the details of the bill.

341 prairiefire  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 9:54:10pm

re: #326 Targetpractice

My sister and I were night and day when it came to subjects in school. She had to get tutoring to read in her early years, while by 4th grade I was reading at a college level. But she grasped mathematics easily while I still stumble over anything more complicated than basic algebra. The only subject we both had no problem with was history, or rather we had no problem with facts but dates always tripped us up.

Do you have different political views?

342 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 9:54:34pm

re: #339 CarleeCork

I've birthed two and I'm not sure that's accurate. I felt more like I was passing a melon.

Men should imagine passing a small melon. Shitting a pineapple implies hemorrhoids.

Yes, but melons don't sit around and whine at you when they reach a certain age.

343 Targetpractice  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 9:55:08pm

re: #341 prairiefire

Do you have different political views?

I'm a political junkie and she doesn't care about it enough to do more than vote each election.

344 austin_blue  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 9:55:14pm

re: #333 freetoken

I asked earlier about the development of the neocortex as important in defining when a fetus ought to be abort-able or not.

It doesn't however solve the question for those who argue that the development process itself is special - that is, that after conception there is something so unique to the development of the organism that the criteria used later in life don't apply.

But that's counterintuitive. Every fertilized ovum is potentially a human being. But every lottery ticket I buy could potentially make me a millionaire.

It's a crap game. A dear friend of mine lost her twins at twenty weeks. Devastated.

But the fact is that those potential children died in situ before they could survive outside the womb.

It's a conversation ripe for intelligent, unemotional discussion.

345 prairiefire  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 9:55:34pm

re: #342 To hold my temper, most of the time.

Yes, but melons don't sit around and whine at you when they reach a certain age.

Right, then you use them to create movie sound effects. (the melons)

346 freetoken  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 9:56:23pm

BTW, the AJPM printed a criticism of that CDC analysis, by a guy (Dr. Weed -yes, that is his name) with a long time interest in Abstinence education, who of course had issues with the CDC study's conclusion.

But even more than that, when reading his article I was struck by one of his arguments, that really appeared to me to be fundamentally non-sensical, to a point that I assume that the AJPM editors still printed article for political reasons.

Simply this: Weed contends that unless an comprehensive sex education program increases both abstinence and condom use by the target group then the comprehensive program is not superior to an abstinence program that had similarly increased the abstinence rate.

In his own words:

[...] However, the benefıts of any specifıc CRR [comprehensive risk reduction] program would be superior to the benefıts of an effective abstinence education program only if that CRR program were affecting both behaviors. If it increased teen condom use but not abstinence, it would not offer a benefıt that was superior to an effective abstinence program, because abstinence provides better protection for teens than condom use.

Thus, CRR should be viewed as a superior protective strategy only if it produces both outcomes on the same population, within the same program. Without the occurrence of this “dual effect” within CRR programs, decision makers (school administrators, youth advocates, parents) are left to choose between programs that do one thing or the other, that is, reduce sexual activity or increase condom use. Unfortunately, meta-analytic statistical methods are not suited to an empirical test of whether the CRR strategy has been effective at achieving both of these outcomes within CRR programs. [...]

I bolded the part that needs to be thought about. Think deeply.

He wants on the same population to simultaneously see increases in abstinence and condom use.

Think deeply on this.

347 ProGunLiberal  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 9:56:49pm

re: #338 CuriousLurker

Speaking of fuzzy emotions, I asked a mutual friend of mine and the one I have referred to as "Croatian" what I should do. Said mutual friend said I should just spit it out and say it.

Considering my personality, that wasn't helpful.

348 Jimmi the Grey  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 9:58:31pm

re: #228 HoosierHoops

So what did everybody give up for Lent this year?
It was easy for me when I was a kid.. Everybody was giving up candy...
Really?
Does anybody give up being an a*shole for Lent? Or just chocolate?

In 1987 I gave up lent for lent. We left the Catholic church the year before and I swore I'd never again have to give up my favorite of my bday presents for 40days right after opening it. Sucked having your bday at the end of February as a Catholic kid.

349 palomino  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 9:58:44pm

re: #229 Slumbering Behemoth

As a matter of fact, I believe the first "ultrasound rape bill" covered here at LGF was written and sponsored by a Democrat (female, no less), and sponsored and voted "Yea" for by many state Dems.

It just goes to show ya, black and white dichotomies don't work the way we think they should.

Maybe not black and white, but a really dark shade of gray vs. a really light one. The overwhelming majority of Dems across the country oppose such bills. You'll find a few exceptions in the South and some rural areas. The GOP, OTOH, is overwhelmingly supportive of such measures.

We have one party that's primarily a religious organ, and one that's primarily a secular organization. A simple fact.

350 CuriousLurker  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 10:03:45pm

re: #347 ProGunLiberal

Everyone's going to give you different advice based own their own experiences. The problem with taking other people's advice is that they don't have to live with the consequences of whatever choice you make.

With that in mind, weigh all options and think before you speak—words matter and can sometimes follow you around a a long time.

351 Targetpractice  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 10:09:12pm

re: #346 freetoken

BTW, the AJPM printed a criticism of that CDC analysis, by a guy (Dr. Weed -yes, that is his name) with a long time interest in Abstinence education, who of course had issues with the CDC study's conclusion.

But even more than that, when reading his article I was struck by one of his arguments, that really appeared to me to be fundamentally non-sensical, to a point that I assume that the AJPM editors still printed article for political reasons.

Simply this: Weed contends that unless an comprehensive sex education program increases both abstinence and condom use by the target group then the comprehensive program is not superior to an abstinence program that had similarly increased the abstinence rate.

In his own words:

I bolded the part that needs to be thought about. Think deeply.

He wants on the same population to simultaneously see increases in abstinence and condom use.

Think deeply on this.

It's the line that comes after that gets me:

Without the occurrence of this “dual effect” within CRR programs, decision makers (school administrators, youth advocates, parents) are left to choose between programs that do one thing or the other, that is, reduce sexual activity or increase condom use.

Except abstinence-only hasn't been shown to "reduce sexual activity." More to point, it's seen the same level of activity, but higher rates of teen pregnancy because the kids who get such lessons are left ignorant as to how to practice safe sex. So this "doctor" is either A) willfully ignorant or B) a bullshit artist.

352 ProGunLiberal  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 10:10:46pm

re: #350 CuriousLurker

I see what you are saying.

Because of past experiences, when dealing with relationship issues (Friends and other stuff), I tend to be extremely hesitant. Which I know is both good and bad.

353 goddamnedfrank  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 10:11:40pm

re: #340 Slumbering Behemoth

Stating that Democrats have authored/co-sponsored/voted for anti-choice bills is not MBF crap. It's just stating a fact.

Also, I did not claim that such things get majority Dem support, only that some Dem support does exist.

I'll dig through the archives here to see if I can find it, but it was a while ago. The reason that instance sticks out in my mind is because someone on that thread started in with the "cry wolf" MBF tactic when someone brought up dem involvement without reading the details of the bill.

Let me help you narrow it down. It wasn't the Texas sonogram law signed into law by Rick Perry, that was authored by Republican State Senator Dan Patrick, sponsored by him in the State Senate and in the House by Republican Sid Miller.

354 MittDoesNotCompute  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 10:15:06pm

re: #232 Learned Mother of Zion

No we took the Cobalt. Which is a sucky car by the way. Wish we had just driven from Detroit.

Will rent from Enterprise from now on. They have always had good cars and excellent customer service.

Oh, and fly Delta.

Never had any problems with Enterprise; also, because I use GEICO for my car insurance, Enterprise is their preferred rental company for my insurance claims.

Brother #1 totaled his truck in a rainstorm back in September (really nasty rear-end and front-end damage where the truck was spinning around and hit trees, embankments, and shit). GEICO's claims folks took care of paying for my brother and his boyfriend's minor medical stuff (bruised ribs from the center console for my brother and a bit of whiplash for both of them) and a rental of a Dodge Nitro from Enterprise until the claims adjuster did his assessment and cut a check.

Nothing out of pocket and everything was taken care of; pity my rates wound up going up 25 bucks a month this new policy period, but for the service we got, it's a wash.

355 CuriousLurker  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 10:16:47pm

re: #352 ProGunLiberal

I see what you are saying.

Because of past experiences, when dealing with relationship issues (Friends and other stuff), I tend to be extremely hesitant. Which I know is both good and bad.

Just be honest. Again, that doesn't mean blurt things out without thinking, but neither does it mean you should over-think things to the point where they sound scripted or rehearsed. Be sincere—decent people will recognize that & appreciate it. If someone isn't decent, then you don't need them in your life.

356 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 10:29:34pm

re: #353 goddamnedfrank

Okay, I found the thread I was referring to. The one you referenced predates the one I was thinking of by just a bit less than three months, so I'll hope you'll forgive me for saying that I believed this was the first story about the subject covered here.

Reading through the thread, you will see this comment quoting...

The House voted 79-0 for Senate Bill 528 sponsored by pro-life Democratic Sen. Sharon Broome of Baton Rouge

I suppose I can forgive you, as well, for forgetting that thread and it's contents even when you participated in it.

After all, I forgot the fuck out of those details as well, and it took some real head scratching for me to dig that up.

357 freetoken  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 10:29:56pm

re: #351 Targetpractice

Dr. Weed has a long history, btw. Google him and find out.

358 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 10:42:51pm

re: #356 Slumbering Behemoth

Also, on me and how I could possibly be more wrong...

Senator Sharon Weston Broome (D) is credited as submitting the bill, not credited as authoring it.

Is there a difference? I am not at all hip on political legalese.

359 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 10:54:42pm

re: #349 palomino

I am not denying the fact that the (R) party takes such an obviously larger slice of the socon pie than the (D) party, only that it is not an exercise in MBFing to point out where certain democratic members reach for their slice of the socon pie. It is simply a statement of recorded fact.

360 JamesWI  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 11:05:22pm

Image: Frothy_web.jpg

361 JamesWI  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 11:06:26pm

re: #360 JamesWI

Hmm... for some reason the picture isn't loading for me

362 Mocking Jay  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 11:06:34pm

re: #356 Slumbering Behemoth

The fact that you had to go all Indiana Jones to unearth this piece of history should tell you something...

363 Mocking Jay  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 11:07:25pm

re: #361 JamesWI

Hmm... for some reason the picture isn't loading for me

Me neither. I think that's a sign from the internet god that I'm not supposed to see it.

364 freetoken  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 11:08:33pm

re: #356 Slumbering Behemoth

Louisiana is well known for its SoCon Democrats.

At one time it would have been thought normal, but the GOP has been picking up the SoCons in that state for some time now, so people equate Socon there with (R).

365 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 11:12:16pm

re: #362 The Most Interesting Man in My World

The fact that you had to go all Indiana Jones to unearth this piece of history should tell you something...

I didn't go "all Indiana Jones". I went "all Slumbering Behemoth".

If I had Indy's skills, I would have recalled the specifics a hell of a lot quicker.

But the original point still stands.

366 Mocking Jay  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 11:14:57pm

re: #365 Slumbering Behemoth

I didn't go "all Indiana Jones". I went "all Slumbering Behemoth".

If I had Indy's skills, I would have recalled the specifics a hell of a lot quicker.

But the original point still stands.

Uh huh. You're right. Democrats do it too.

*rollseyes*

And with that I'm off to bed.

367 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 11:19:03pm

re: #366 The Most Interesting Man in My World

Uh huh. You're right. Democrats do it too.

*rollseyes*

And with that I'm off to bed.

Probably for the best, as you seem to have missed my point entirely.

That being, it's not that "Democrats do it too", but that there is no Magical Balance Fairy in pointing out the facts when some Democrats toe the socon line.

But go ahead and dream of a world where they don't exist. No harm, I dream of that as well.

368 palomino  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 11:19:08pm

re: #359 Slumbering Behemoth

I am not denying the fact that the (R) party takes such an obviously larger slice of the socon pie than the (D) party, only that it is not an exercise in MBFing to point out where certain democratic members reach for their slice of the socon pie. It is simply a statement of recorded fact.

I don't think I suggested you were MBFing, just pointing out what you say you don't deny: that this obsession with women's reproductive organs is primarily a Republican phenomenon.

Sure, southern Dems are much more conservative than their counterparts in most of the rest of the country. Always have been.

369 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 11:24:00pm

re: #368 palomino

I don't think I suggested you were MBFing

No, no, no. Please don't think I inferred that from you. I didn't.

My point was that it's not an act of MBFing to point out certain socon Dems for being total dicks on the issue as well.

They exist, albeit in small numbers, and we would do well to point out when and where our representatives suck on the issues we consider important, regardless of what party they belong to.

370 goddamnedfrank  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 11:25:05pm

re: #356 Slumbering Behemoth

I suppose I can forgive you, as well, for forgetting that thread and it's contents even when you participated in it.

There's nothing to forgive, I didn't participate in that thread. I'm not Obdicut.

371 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 11:28:42pm

re: #370 goddamnedfrank

Your upding of his comment is there. And I was being facetious.

At any rate, there is the thread I found myself misremembering as the first. By less than three months.

Ironically, it was a Dem submitted "ultrasound rape bill" that intended to deny exemptions for actual rape victims.

372 palomino  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 11:33:34pm

re: #369 Slumbering Behemoth

No, no, no. Please don't think I inferred that from you. I didn't.

My point was that it's not an act of MBFing to point out certain socon Dems for being total dicks on the issue as well.

They exist, in small numbers albeit, and we would do well to point out when and where our representatives suck on the issues we consider important, regardless of what party the belong to.

Some parts of the South and a few in the midwest/rocky mountain states are so conservative that even Dems will adopt across the board socially conservative positions. They want to get elected, after all.

But the real thing that bothers me is not social conservatism per se, it's the increasing religiosity of the GOP. There's also some in the Dem Party, but the GOP seems to be dominated by explicit Christian religiosity more than at any other time in my life. A "Jesus candidate" (as Santorum refers to himself) who wants to govern based on the Bible is the last thing we need. Unfortunately Mitt has picked up a lot of the same rhetoric. I guess he has to, he's been running for president for over 5 years straight, he really wants it.

373 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 11:36:32pm

re: #372 palomino

Some parts of the South and a few in the midwest/rocky mountain states are so conservative that even Dems will adopt across the board socially conservative positions.

We get that here in large parts of California as well. :sigh:

There's also some in the Dem Party, but the GOP seems to be dominated by explicit Christian religiosity more than at any other time in my life.

Did you miss the Satanic Panic of the '80s. I mean, granted, what is going on now in the GOP is nucking futs, but back then? Phew!

374 Lidane  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 11:42:45pm

re: #372 palomino

Some parts of the South and a few in the midwest/rocky mountain states are so conservative that even Dems will adopt across the board socially conservative positions. They want to get elected, after all.

That's Texas in a nutshell. If a Democrat wants to get elected in this state, they're pretty much going to have to run as a Blue Dog to do it. It's rare to see a more moderate or liberal Dem in a higher office around here.

It's why I have no real loyalty to the Democrats around here. In this state, they're indistinguishable from the GOP.

375 ProGunLiberal  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 11:46:45pm

re: #374 Lidane

That might not be true for much longer. Colorado was the same way 10 years ago.

Now, Colorado is becoming one of the Bluest States of the Union, being one of 15 states that would approve Gay Marriage outright, at least according to polling.

Colorado Blue-Shifted extremely quickly.

376 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 11:50:43pm

re: #374 Lidane

It's why I have no real loyalty to the Democrats around here. In this state, they're indistinguishable from the GOP.

Fierce loyalty for the ideals you hold dear, harsh scrutiny for the politicians that seek your vote, and total damnation for party identity.

377 Lidane  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 11:52:00pm

re: #376 Slumbering Behemoth

Fierce loyalty for the ideals you hold dear, harsh scrutiny for the politicians that seek your vote, and total damnation for party identity.

Pretty much, yeah.

I vote D primarily because the R's around here are goddamn lunatics. It's not because I'm loyal to the party. I'm about my personal beliefs first. Everything else is details.

378 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 11:53:22pm

re: #362 The Most Interesting Man in My World

The fact that you had to go all Indiana Jones to unearth this piece of history should tell you something...

Yes, that we weren't paying attention to this a year ago.

Storm clouds have been gathering.

379 ProGunLiberal  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 11:57:36pm

re: #375 ProGunLiberal

Actually, one of 18 states. Those states are:

Hawaii
California
Oregon
Washington
Colorado
New Mexico
Iowa
Illinois
Maryland
Delaware
New Jersey
New York
Massachusetts
Connecticut
Rhode Island
Vermont
New Hampshire
Maine

Of these, only Iowa and New Hampshire are showing to be any sort of Swing State.

380 palomino  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 11:58:08pm

re: #373 Slumbering Behemoth

We get that here in large parts of California as well. :sigh:

Did you miss the Satanic Panic of the '80s. I mean, granted, what is going on now in the GOP is nucking futs, but back then? Phew!

I know what you mean about Cali. I moved to L.A. 20 years back. Coming from Houston, which is a lot like Orange County, but even more conservative, I'm pretty used to this stuff. Went to a private evangelical school from K-3; finally talked my parents into letting me change schools after I was "taught" that the earth was only 5,000 years old. Even at 7 years old I knew that was bullshit.

Yeah, the 80's were crazy, but Reagan never talked about religion the way the gop's presidential candidates do now. And there used to be a real moderate secular wing in the GOP. That's why I was a Republican a long time ago, but can't be anymore.

381 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 12:00:30am

re: #377 Lidane

And that was really my whole point, which seemed to touch off some rolling eyes.

There really are Democrats, few though they are, who toe the socon line, and it's not an invocation of the Magical Balance Fairy to point out where they exist, and what their voting records are.

382 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 12:01:05am

re: #368 palomino

I don't think I suggested you were MBFing, just pointing out what you say you don't deny: that this obsession with women's reproductive organs is primarily a Republican phenomenon.

Sure, southern Dems are much more conservative than their counterparts in most of the rest of the country. Always have been.

I'd say that this obsession with women's reproductive organs is the wicket of anyone who thinks they can get votes out of it. That's primarily Republicans in much of the country.

Meanwhile, the Republican Speaker of the House in the Indiana lege, Brian Bosma, apparently spent a fortune on Girl Scout cookies in response to his colleague Bob Morris's drivel about the organization:

He's also been handing them out on the floor, and munching them through the day.

This is an ally.

This concerted effort to beat back reproductive rights will effectively move the window. We are losing ground, and while the Republicans are leading the charge, Democrats who decide that they're more interested in reaping the benefits or being hep with the times than in defending Americans' rights, will drift with the opportunistic tide.

Whether someone is an ally depends on what they do, not what letter goes after their name and before their city.

383 freetoken  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 12:02:14am

re: #381 Slumbering Behemoth

There really are Democrats, few though they are, who toe the socon line, ...

I assume you mean "tow", but given the way politics works, I suppose one could say a politician sticks their toe into the SoCon pool when needed.

384 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 12:02:19am

re: #378 SanFranciscoZionist

Yes, that we weren't paying attention to this a year ago.

Storm clouds have been gathering.

You'd be better served by simply rolling your eyes and ignoring the rare, unpleasant facts wherever they surface.
///

385 freetoken  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 12:02:56am

Clue to BBC: Never send a geologist to do a biologist's job.

386 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 12:05:12am

re: #383 freetoken

Nah. I'm pretty sure I meant "toe".

387 AK-47%  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 12:05:22am

Most Americans see contraception as an inalienable private right.

Rick Santorum has said openly that he thinks it is wrong and the rest of the party is doing a piss-poor job of hiding that point of view.

And although lots of Americans are morally opposed to abortion, many of the still want to know there is an emergency backup plan in the event that their daughters do not live up to the high moral standards that they themselves did not live up to as teenagers...

388 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 12:05:29am

re: #383 freetoken

I assume you mean "tow", but given the way politics works, I suppose one could say a politician sticks their toe into the SoCon pool when needed.

I think it's actually 'toe', as in the starting line of an athletic event.

389 AK-47%  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 12:06:47am

re: #386 Slumbering Behemoth

Nah. I'm pretty sure I meant "toe".

you beat me to it

now let's cover "begging the question"

390 Lidane  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 12:06:56am

Case in point about the R's here in Texas being goddamn lunatics:

If this guy is on my ballot in November, I'm voting against him, full stop. Doesn't matter if the other guy loses, I refuse to support this kind of idiocy.

391 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 12:08:07am

re: #387 Ministry of Fairness and Balance

Most Americans see contraception as an inalienable private right.

Rick Santorum has said openly that he thinks it is wrong and the rest of the party is doing a piss-poor job of hiding that point of view.

And although lots of Americans are morally opposed to abortion, many of the still want to know there is an emergency backup plan in the event that their daughters do not live up to the high moral standards that they themselves did not live up to as teenagers...

The trick is to convince the voter to imagine the person in need of an abortion or Plan B or what have you not as themselves, or their daughter, but someone much more shiftless, slutty, inexcusable, and probably living off they, the voter's, hard earned tax dollars.

392 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 12:08:44am

re: #389 Ministry of Fairness and Balance

you beat me to it

now let's cover "begging the question"

Jebus! Let's not and say we did.

I may not be the most educated of this bunch, but even I get that one.

393 AK-47%  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 12:10:18am

re: #388 SanFranciscoZionist

I think it's actually 'toe', as in the starting line of an athletic event.

As in: "At the start of the bicycle race in the rain, the contestant toed the wet sprocket."

394 Lidane  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 12:10:24am

re: #391 SanFranciscoZionist

The trick is to convince the voter to imagine the person in need of an abortion or Plan B or what have you not as themselves, or their daughter, but someone much more shiftless, slutty, inexcusable, and probably living of they, the voter's, hard earned tax dollars.

Ergo, the ubiquitous "welfare queen", or the immoral whore who walks into the abortion clinic smiling and laughing because she's terminating a pregnancy for the lulz and then expects Real Americans to pay for it.

395 HappyWarrior  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 12:10:58am

re: #390 Lidane

Case in point about the R's here in Texas being goddamn lunatics:

[Embedded content]If this guy is on my ballot in November, I'm voting against him, full stop. Doesn't matter if the other guy loses, I refuse to support this kind of idiocy.

What's sad is my understanding is James is more reviled for what happened at Texas Tech than his crazy positions. Is Hutchison retiring or is he challenging her?

396 AK-47%  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 12:11:48am

re: #391 SanFranciscoZionist

The trick is to convince the voter to imagine the person in need of an abortion or Plan B or what have you not as themselves, or their daughter, but someone much more shiftless, slutty, inexcusable, and probably living of they, the voter's, hard earned tax dollars.

She most always is, unless, of course, she is your own shiftless, slutty, inexcusable daughter who is living off your money...

/

397 Lidane  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 12:12:05am

re: #395 HappyWarrior

What's sad is my understanding is James is more reviled for what happened at Texas Tech than his crazy positions. Is Hutchison retiring or is he challenging her?

She's retiring, I think.

Frankly, I don't blame her. I never voted for her, but the way she was treated in the GOP governor's race against Perry was inexcusable.

398 HappyWarrior  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 12:12:56am

re: #397 Lidane

She's retiring, I think.

Frankly, I don't blame her. I never voted for her, but the way she was treated in the GOP governor's race against Perry was inexcusable.

I felt the same way about John Warner. Never supported the guy but he was treated awfully by the right wing here.

399 AK-47%  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 12:13:43am

re: #394 Lidane

Ergo, the ubiquitous "welfare queen", or the immoral whore who walks into the abortion clinic smiling and laughing because she's terminating a pregnancy for the lulz and then expects Real Americans to pay for it.

Er, I thought welfare queens turned out whole litters of crack babies so they could continue to collect child support payments and live a life of tax-supported indolence.

/

400 freetoken  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 12:14:54am

re: #386 Slumbering Behemoth

Nah. I'm pretty sure I meant "toe".

Well, shiver my timbers.

401 AK-47%  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 12:16:07am

re: #400 freetoken

Well, shiver my timbers.

Let's just go the whole nine yards, then.

402 palomino  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 12:18:39am

re: #382 SanFranciscoZionist

I'd say that this obsession with women's reproductive organs is the wicket of anyone who thinks they can get votes out of it. That's primarily Republicans in much of the country.

Meanwhile, the Republican Speaker of the House in the Indiana lege, Brian Bosma, apparently spent a fortune on Girl Scout cookies in response to his colleague Bob Morris's drivel about the organization:

He's also been handing them out on the floor, and munching them through the day.

This is an ally.

This concerted effort to beat back reproductive rights will effectively move the window. We are losing ground, and while the Republicans are leading the charge, Democrats who decide that they're more interested in reaping the benefits or being hep with the times than in defending Americans' rights, will drift with the opportunistic tide.

Whether someone is an ally depends on what they do, not what letter goes after their name and before their city.

No question about that. Those allies you talk about are the reason some state legislatures have been able to pass same sex marriage. While they had most of the Dem votes, they lost a few but were able to find a few Republicans to make up the difference.

Still the parties are near polar opposites on many social issues. You won't find a state in the gop-dominated south where gay marriage currently has a chance of passing. Indeed most of those states have made gay marriage and any type of civil union illegal not just by statute, but by amendment to their state constitutions.

403 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 12:22:17am

re: #400 freetoken

I had a serious girlfriend once (she was super serial), and we were together for over two years before I realized she had been frequently saying "for all intensive purposes" when making a point.

She also held an incorrect assumption of what constituted a "strawman argument".

404 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 12:24:04am

re: #401 Ministry of Fairness and Balance

Let's just go the whole nine yards, then.

Ouch!

405 AK-47%  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 12:27:53am

He ran one of the biggest poultry breeding farms in the midwest. He was a real chick magnate

406 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 12:34:44am

Nice. A poor invocation of the MBF turns into an honest "Yes, Virginia, There Are SoCon Democrats".

Don't know why folk have to be ridiculed for pointing out such facts, but I guess that's part of the fun/charm.

407 Varek Raith  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 12:35:39am

re: #406 Slumbering Behemoth

Nice. A poor invocation of the MBF turns into an honest "Yes, Virginia, There Are SoCon Democrats".

Don't know why folk have to be ridiculed for pointing out such facts, but I guess that's part of the fun/charm.

Huh?

408 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 12:36:40am

re: #407 Somalia: Libertarian Paradise

Read up thread.

409 ProGunLiberal  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 12:37:56am

Well, there's a big meeting in Tunis about Syria today:

Representatives of more than seventy countries meet in Tunisia to discuss supporting the opposition in the 2011 Syrian uprising.

410 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 12:38:41am

Or don'tre: #408 Slumbering Behemoth

Read up thread.

Or don't. At this point I might just be...

411 Varek Raith  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 12:40:06am

SoCon Ds in Virginia???
Perish the thought!
/

412 freetoken  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 12:40:12am
MP3 Audio
413 Varek Raith  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 12:44:42am

re: #410 Slumbering Behemoth

Or don't

Or don't. At this point I might just be...

Meh, I don't see what the big deal about your post was.

414 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 12:45:24am

re: #408 Slumbering Behemoth

Read up thread.

What #comment?

415 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 12:45:38am

re: #411 Somalia: Libertarian Paradise

I HAVE CLUTCHING PEARLS!! LET ME SHOW YOU THEM!!!

416 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 12:48:48am

No matter, I've read it.

That's why the more overarching theme for me is social liberals v. social conservatives (which is more global anyway), rather than Rs v Ds.

417 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 12:53:00am

re: #414 Black Cat, White Cat

It started somewhat with this, I responded with that, and eventually backed that up with this.

The stuff that existed in between and a bit after was mostly weird, with a few points of clarity.

418 Varek Raith  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 12:55:21am

UNPOSSIBLE!
Next thing you'll be saying is that there are gay republicans!
/

419 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 12:57:05am

re: #418 Somalia: Libertarian Paradise

UNPOSSIBLE!
Next thing you'll be saying is that there are gay republicans!
/

Everywhere there are outliers.

(Say thanks to the old Cap, shiver me timbers.)

420 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 12:57:24am

And just to swing that cudgel against the deceased equine once more...

IT IS NOT A MAGICAL BALANCING FAIRY ACT TO POINT OUT WHERE SOCON DEMS ARE BEING JUST AS DICKISH AS SOCON REPS!!!

It is a fact. And there is no MBF in a fact.

421 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 12:59:41am

re: #418 Somalia: Libertarian Paradise

Well, we get the "RINO!" diatribe from the right, so I guess it's only fair that we get a "DINO!" diatribe from the left.
///

422 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 1:00:14am

re: #420 Slumbering Behemoth

And there is no MBF in a fact.

Is it your contention that MBF is always non-factual? I don't think it is correct. MBF is supposed to be factual. It is the intent of balancing that characterizes it, not lack of factuality.

423 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 1:03:27am

re: #422 Black Cat, White Cat

Is your contention that MBF is always non-factual? I don't think it is correct. MBF is supposed to be factual. It is the intent of balancing that characterizes it, not lack of factuality.

I disagree. I think the "Magical" part of the "Magical Balance Fairy" is intended to proscribe a certain amount of unreality, or magical thinking on the part of the accused.

/that, and the "Fairy" part as well.

424 Varek Raith  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 1:06:24am

I consider something MBF if it is posted mainly to deflect from their side doing something bad.
SB was not doing this.

425 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 1:10:53am

re: #424 Somalia: Libertarian Paradise

Thanks, but the MBF was leveled at a post by DF. Regardless of what one may think of him, citing recorded facts as he did in that post does not qualify as an MBF.

426 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 1:14:42am

re: #423 Slumbering Behemoth

I disagree. I think the "Magical" part of the "Magical Balance Fairy" is intended to proscribe a certain amount of unreality, or magical thinking on the part of the accused.

/that, and the "Fairy" part as well.

No, "magical" relates to balance, not to facts.
Like:
- The GOP is anti-choice and misogynist.
- But what about the fact that this, this and this D are involved in anti-choice legislation? Doesn't that mean Democrats are also anti-choice and misogynist?

The example of MBF above illustrates such "balance", which, as if by magic, ignores the actual weight of parties in anti-choice legislation.

On the other hand, here's an example that is less MBF'ish:

- The GOP is anti-choice and misogynist. Only the Democrats are good guys.
- But what about the fact that this, this and this D are involved in anti-choice legislation?

While this still somewhat ignores the relative weight of anti-choice activity, it is at least a response to what might be seen as a whitewashing and undue praise of Democrats (although it can be seen from the another perspective, i.e. ignoring the outliers and focusing on the pro-choice majority, which is quite normal in politics).

427 AK-47%  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 1:17:05am

There were once liberal Republicans. Mitt Romney was one of them.

They have gone the way of the white R(h)ino.

There were are are conservative Democrats. They became a lot more common under Reagan, then went on the decline for a long time, but have begun to rear their heads under Obama again.

428 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 1:27:26am

re: #426 Black Cat, White Cat

No, "magical" relates to balance, not to facts.

I still disagree. The "Magical" part does not relate to balance of any kind, but the concept of "False Equivalence".

Much like the phrases "begging the question" and "strawman argument" have been overly misused to the point of diluting their actual meaning, so to, I think, the meaning of MBF has been diluted.

429 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 1:29:21am

re: #428 Slumbering Behemoth

I still disagree. The "Magical" part does not relate to balance of any kind, but the concept of "False Equivalence".

Much like the phrases "begging the question" and "strawman argument" have been overly misused to the point of diluting their actual meaning, so to, I think, the meaning of MBF has been diluted.

I don't see where you contradict me. Magical balance = false equivalence.

430 Varek Raith  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 1:32:32am

Let's get to the heart of this discussion.
Which one of you is going to get me coffee?!?!

431 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 1:35:59am

re: #429 Black Cat, White Cat

The difference between "factual balance" and "magical balance".

Too often, factual balance is incorrectly treated as magical balance, much the same way that piss poor arguments are incorrectly treated as strawman arguments.

432 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 1:36:44am

re: #430 Somalia: Libertarian Paradise

Let's get to the heart of this discussion.
Which one of you is going to get me coffee?!?!

Come at me, bro.

433 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 1:37:22am

And where the equivalence is not false, there is no MBF, but a call for consistency.

If we see that no rw blogger was outraged by Bush bowing to the Saudi king (no matter for what purpose - receiving some kind of a medal from a dictator is not an extenuating circumstance, I would argue, rather the opposite), it is only fair to ask for a consistency in outrage when they shout about Obama bowing to some guy or another.

It does not even need to equal "since Bush did it too, it's OK". It's more of a "let's judge this by the same standard".

The D's v. R's on reproductive choice, on the other hand, are objectively not equivalent, one party is not like the other on this, despite the outliers. So the very act of bringing up anti-choice D's in response to any criticism of the GOP on this is MBF.

It's not MBF in DF's case because his comment came naturally - he was asked about a specific thing, and he provided the facts about this specific thing. His intent was not to balance out the inhumanity of the GOP with inhumanity of Ds.

434 researchok  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 1:39:36am

Good morning, all

435 researchok  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 1:42:19am

Helluva day to be a bit late... good conversation.

436 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 1:43:46am

re: #433 Black Cat, White Cat

So the very act of bringing up anti-choice D's in response to any criticism of the GOP on this is MBF.

In so much as that response results solely in a "Look, they do it too", I absolutely agree. That is an exercise in MBFing.

In so much as stating that certain Democrats had a hand in the anti-choice legislation in question? No. Stating such facts is not an exercise in MBFing.

437 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 1:44:58am

re: #431 Slumbering Behemoth

The difference between "factual balance" and "magical balance".

Too often, factual balance is incorrectly treated as magical balance, much the same way that piss poor arguments are incorrectly treated as strawman arguments.

I'm not sure what you mean by factual balance.

Magical balance is built on the basis of facts. It's a fact that such and such D's are anti-choice. It's rhetorically putting them on the other side of the scale, when confronted with the general anti-choice R position, that constituted rhetorical magic.

(I'm not saying anyone did this above.)

438 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 1:46:03am

re: #436 Slumbering Behemoth

In so much as stating that certain Democrats had a hand in the anti-choice legislation in question? No. Stating such facts is not an exercise in MBFing.

If prompted, as in DF's case? No, not MBF, as I wrote above.

If not prompted, but brought up on one's own initiative? A rhetorical trick known as MBF.

439 researchok  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 1:47:17am

re: #412 freetoken

[Embedded content]

Wow.

Impressive vocals/harmonies.

440 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 1:48:29am

re: #438 Black Cat, White Cat

If prompted, as in DF's case? No, not MBF, as I wrote above.

If not prompted, but brought up on one's own initiative? A rhetorical trick known as MBF.

Because the question, obviously, is why they were brought up. In DF's case the reason was to answer a particular question.

But when no question is asked, and this is still brought up, one gotta ask: what for? What are these (undisputed) facts supposed to illustrate, if not "Dems are just as bad"?

441 Varek Raith  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 1:49:56am

Image: funny-dog-pictures-i-has-a-hotdog-im-skipping-merrily-along.jpg

442 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 1:57:23am

re: #437 Black Cat, White Cat

I'm coming from the perspective that MBF and "false equivalency" are similar.

As in this hypothetical...

#1: "President Grok has violated our rights by denying certain defendants a right to a jury of their peers (which should considered true for this hypothetical).

#2: "So what, President Grog is now violating our rights by not allowing public schools to feed our children high grade plutonium (which should be considered false for this hypothetical).

That's my perspective on the MBF, anyway.

At any rate, nice as always to bullshit with you, Sergey. I'm clocking out.

G'nite all.

443 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 2:33:56am

re: #442 Slumbering Behemoth

I'm coming from the perspective that MBF and "false equivalency" are similar.

As in this hypothetical...

#1: "President Grok has violated our rights by denying certain defendants a right to a jury of their peers (which should considered true for this hypothetical).

#2: "So what, President Grog is now violating our rights by not allowing public schools to feed our children high grade plutonium (which should be considered false for this hypothetical).

That's my perspective on the MBF, anyway.

At any rate, nice as always to bullshit with you, Sergey. I'm clocking out.

G'nite all.

But false equivalency doesn't presuppose falseness of basic facts, only the falseness of comparison. The facts may as well be true.

Anyway, returning to my initial point. "Truth is no defense" in rhetorics. Since we're dealing with rhetorical devices, what also matters is intent (as well as focus).

One of my favorite examples of this is someone saying during a speech: "And did you know that Mr. X is a [insert an ethnonym here]". Mr. X may, as well, belong to the specified ethnic group, but, obviously, that's not all there is to it. We will also why ask why this fact was brought up, and why there is a focus on it. The answers will depend on the context.

So it is here. It is not surprising that when DF is asked about why such and such legal anti-choice atrocity happened, he will unfurl an old newspaper and point out that it happened because such and such Democratic politicians were beyond this initiative. DF's intent is to answer the question, even if his answer may be colored by politics.

If, however, during a discussion of GOP's specific anti-choice initiatives someone chimes in, out of the blue, with information about Democratic anti-choice outliers from another case, the fact that such claims would correspond to truth plays no role, because the intent is to balance the negative portrait of the GOP with negative facts about some D's. That would be MBF.

444 Obdicut  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 2:37:49am

re: #443 Black Cat, White Cat

One could paint an entirely socially conservative picture of Democrats if one just looked at state reps from the Gulf states, for example. But they don't define who the "Democrats" are, any more than the more liberal New York Republicans define who the "Republicans" are.

445 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 2:44:20am

I notice that various idjits make fun of some blogs' stylometric analysis of the suspect memo, with that analysis assigning the authorship to Bast. They correctly note that the memo was based on the real documents and so the result is likely to be skewed towards Bast. What they don't note is that this analysis was proposed by WUWT, and those other blogs simply picked up the glove. Idjits.

446 Obdicut  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 2:45:25am

re: #445 Black Cat, White Cat

I like reading the comments on denier sites that are hosting the documents that quickly descend into bashing those awful 'warmist' sites for the terrible crime of hosting the documents.

447 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 2:46:58am

re: #445 Black Cat, White Cat

I notice that various idjits make fun of some blogs' stylometric analysis of the suspect memo, with that analysis assigning the authorship to Bast. They correctly note that the memo was based on the real documents and so the result is likely to be skewed towards Bast. What they don't note is that this analysis was proposed by WUWT, and those other blogs simply picked up the glove. Idjits.

BTW, this is a good illustration for the above mini-debate. The above paragraph is an example of a call for consistency, not an MBF. I actually dismiss all these stylometric results from both sides as unreliable.

448 Obdicut  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 2:51:40am

The pepper-sprayed and arrested UC Davis students are suing.

[Link: www.courthousenews.com...]

If this follows a similar case in California (that I can't find at the moment) the distance that the spray was used at will be a key factor, and unfortunately for the university and the cops, that is very well documented.

449 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 2:53:20am

re: #448 Obdicut

The pepper-sprayed and arrested UC Davis students are suing.

[Link: www.courthousenews.com...]

If this follows a similar case in California (that I can't find at the moment) the distance that the spray was used at will be a key factor, and unfortunately for the university and the cops, that is very well documented.

I'm troubled. I think the cops are being unfairly maligned. Would that the people just looked at the whole video! That changes everything. They obviously have no case.
/

450 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 2:58:27am

Well, who woulda guessed:

[Link: news.sciencemag.org...]

It appears that the faster-than-light neutrino results, announced last September by the OPERA collaboration in Italy, was due to a mistake after all. A bad connection between a GPS unit and a computer may be to blame.

D'oh!

451 AK-47%  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 3:00:17am

The bartender says "We don't serve your kind here!"

Two neutrinos walk into a bar.

452 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 3:01:33am

re: #451 Ministry of Fairness and Balance

The bartender says "We don't serve your kind here!"

Two neutrinos walk into a bar.

Would work better with tachyons.

453 Obdicut  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 3:03:16am

re: #452 Black Cat, White Cat

Would work better with tachyons.

Or it works fine for everything, since time's linearity may simply be a perspective thing.

All the equations work backwards, too.

454 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 3:03:53am

I didn't know Edwards has a sex tape too. Man, what a wreck that POS turned out to be. And to think that most progressives supported him at one time.

455 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 3:04:44am

re: #453 Obdicut

Or it works fine for everything, since time's linearity may simply be a perspective thing.

All the equations work backwards, too.

Except entropy. And human perspective cannot be easily dismissed too, because - "why?".

456 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 3:06:14am

OK, gotta run. bbl

457 Obdicut  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 3:06:36am

re: #455 Black Cat, White Cat

Except entropy. And human perspective cannot be easily dismissed too, because - "why?".

Entropy works fine backwards, too, in terms of equations. The assertion just becomes the opposite; that entropy tends to diminish.

I really don't know what to make of time, or the universe, or life. It turns out it's a little complicated.

458 Obdicut  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 3:07:14am

I should probably jump into my mountain of work. I think this is my last week of 14 hour days.

But this is another one.

459 EdDantes  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 3:16:17am

Werner Heisenberg was pulled over by a police officer for speeding.

Police officer: " Do you know how fast you were going?"

Heisenberg: " No, but I know where I am."

460 AK-47%  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 3:40:09am

I heard of an incident of a fellow trying to get out of a ticket for running a red light by pleading the Doppler shift: his speed at approaching the red light caused it to shift to green.

The judge adjourned, did some research, cleared him of charges of running a red light but then fined him for doing 50,000 miles per hours in a 25-mile zone...

461 Decatur Deb  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 4:14:37am

re: #445 Black Cat, White Cat

I notice that various idjits make fun of some blogs' stylometric analysis of the suspect memo, with that analysis assigning the authorship to Bast. They correctly note that the memo was based on the real documents and so the result is likely to be skewed towards Bast. What they don't note is that this analysis was proposed by WUWT, and those other blogs simply picked up the glove. Idjits.

Bast wrote Titus Andronicus?

'Morning, all.

462 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 4:51:02am

re: #457 Obdicut

Entropy works fine backwards, too, in terms of equations. The assertion just becomes the opposite; that entropy tends to diminish.

Sure, but the fact is that there is still no time symmetry for entropy.

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

Entropy is the only quantity in the physical sciences (apart from certain rare interactions in particle physics; see below) that requires a particular direction for time, sometimes called an arrow of time. As one goes "forward" in time, the second law of thermodynamics says, the entropy of an isolated system will increase. Hence, from one perspective, entropy measurement is a way of distinguishing the past from the future.

463 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 4:52:55am

re: #461 Decatur Deb

Bast wrote Titus Andronicus?

'Morning, all.

I'm somewhat skeptical of various purely statistical authorship detection methods. Perhaps after a group of Mormon statisticians tried to prove that BoM is indeed written by different authors ;)

(Yeah, yeah, I know any method can be misused. But you know what they say about statistics.)

464 Kragar  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 4:59:48am

So I saw that Supernatural was now available on Netflix, so I gave it a try.

I hold you all responsible for my not watching it earlier.
/

465 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 5:01:55am

re: #464 Kragar

So I saw that Supernatural was now available on Netflix, so I gave it a try.

I hold you all responsible for my not watching it earlier.
/

Is that a TV series?

466 Kragar  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 5:03:49am

re: #465 Black Cat, White Cat

Is that a TV series?

Yeah.

467 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 5:06:15am

re: #466 Kragar

Yeah.

"fighting the demons in search of the truth"

I hope it's not Buffy-ish.

468 Kragar  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 5:08:19am

re: #467 Black Cat, White Cat

"fighting the demons in search of the truth"

I hope it's not Buffy-ish.

Nope. More X-filey.

469 Darth Vader Gargoyle  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 5:12:38am

Good Morning Honcos!

We visited NCTA (National Cable and Telecommunications Association) yesterday and had an interesting conversation about the changes in video entertainment delivery. They say they aren't bothered by Netflix, Hulu or other alternatives because "all they offer is Ghostbusters 2 and old reruns". Do you think someone has their head in the sand or what!?

470 Obdicut  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 5:13:42am

re: #462 Black Cat, White Cat

There is time symmetry for entropy. There is no reason at all that entropy couldn't run backwards. There's no physical law that prevents it. That article even says it-- as you go forward in time, entropy increases. If you go backwards in time, entropy would decrease.

471 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 5:13:45am

re: #468 Kragar

Nope. More X-filey.

Oh, goody. *adds to the list*

472 Darth Vader Gargoyle  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 5:15:05am

re: #470 Obdicut

There is time symmetry for entropy. There is no reason at all that entropy couldn't run backwards. There's no physical law that prevents it. That article even says it-- as you go forward in time, entropy increases. If you go backwards in time, entropy would decrease.

You just have to hit 88mph first.
//

473 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 5:19:20am

Morning Lizardim. Happy Friday from the mild and snowy wild north country. What's shakin' out there in the land of the odd?

474 Shropshire_Slasher  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 5:21:26am

re: #467 Black Cat, White Cat

and what is wrong with Buffy?!
Actually, now that I think of it, it is probably dated by now.

475 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 5:23:23am

re: #470 Obdicut

There is time symmetry for entropy. There is no reason at all that entropy couldn't run backwards. There's no physical law that prevents it. That article even says it-- as you go forward in time, entropy increases. If you go backwards in time, entropy would decrease.

Yes, but it either increases or decreases. That's the asymmetry. 2LoT is not time-invariant. dS/dt>=0 actually becomes dS/dt<=0 if you reverse the direction. So the equation (actually inequality) does change. Unlike, say, Maxwell's equations.

476 Kragar  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 5:24:27am

re: #474 Tommy

and what is wrong with Buffy?!
Actually, now that I think of it, it is probably dated by now.

Replace "chosen one" teenage girl where all the monsters come to her with 2 brothers in their 20s, roaming the US in a Chevy Impala, with a trunk full of guns, occult supplies, and heavy metal.

477 Obdicut  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 5:26:45am

re: #475 Black Cat, White Cat

Yes, but it either increases or decreases..

Yeah, but what 'it' is is just something we talk about.

That's the asymmetry. 2LoT is not time-invariant. dS/dt>=0 actually becomes dS/dt<=0 if you reverse the direction. So the equation (actually inequality) does change. Unlike, say, Maxwell's equations

I'm not saying it doesn't change, I'm saying it works perfectly fine backwards.

Likewise, things trapped on the border of a singularity may experience no time whatsoever-- doesn't mean that the equation of their entry couldn't be reversed.

478 Shropshire_Slasher  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 5:29:05am

I always thought Charisma Carpenter was the prettiest thing since Kate Bush, but I say that about all the girls.

479 Obdicut  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 5:29:29am

re: #478 Tommy

I always thought Charisma Carpenter was the prettiest thing since Kate Bush, but I say that about all the girls.

Do you even say it about Kate Bush?

480 Kragar  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 5:31:29am

re: #478 Tommy

I always thought Charisma Carpenter was the prettiest thing since Kate Bush, but I say that about all the girls.

Was always an Alyson Hannigan fan myself.

481 Shropshire_Slasher  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 5:32:09am

re: #479 Obdicut

Mid eighties Kate Bush, I have a thing about doe-eyes and black hair...

482 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 5:32:42am

Good morning Lizards.

Warm and raining in Philadelphia this morning.

I'm on my second cup of coffee.

Given the recent discussion I'm waiting for the grognards to describe the MBF in WH40K terms.
;)

483 RogueOne  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 5:33:09am

I'm sensing a pattern:

Woman’s 911 call prompts investigation of rehired officer
[Link: www.spokesman.com...]

Another Spokane police officer is facing potential termination after using law enforcement resources to find the home address of a woman he’d met at a Spokane Valley bar, then showing up uninvited in the middle of the night.
.....
Edwards is the officer who just returned to the police force after spending nearly a year on paid leave while the Washington State Patrol investigated his ties to an unlicensed bounty hunter.

In that case, Edwards was cleared of any criminal wrongdoing, but police officials ruled late last year that he violated department policy by engineering a ruse with two bail bondsmen in November 2009 to chase a fugitive into a home on Nora Avenue so that Edwards could search the home for stolen Cadillac wheels without a search warrant.

During that investigation, Edwards continued to draw his annual pay of $76,886 while not working for 10 months. After ruling he violated department policy, the department disciplined Edwards with a two-week unpaid suspension.

I would think intentionally violating someone's civil rights would be enough reason to fire a police officer but I guess not.

Another:

Settlement awards officer job, back pay
[Link: www.spokesman.com...]

A Spokane police officer fired in 2009 after driving drunk while off duty, hitting a pickup with his truck and leaving the scene of the collision is likely to be rehired and get more than two years of back pay.
...
Thoma also would be paid about $275,000 for back pay and benefits, and the city will pay his attorney $15,000. The back pay is based on the amount he earned as a sergeant.

Bob Dunn, Thoma’s attorney, said Thoma had a disability – alcoholism – that resulted from stress from his job. He argued that the police department knew Thoma struggled with alcoholism and didn’t try to get him help. Thoma filed a complaint about his firing with the Washington State Human Rights Commission soon after he was terminated.

484 Kragar  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 5:40:08am

re: #482 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste

Good morning Lizards.

Warm and raining in Philadelphia this morning.

I'm on my second cup of coffee.

Given the recent discussion I'm waiting for the grognards to describe the MBF in WH40K terms.
;)

Ecclisiarchy, obviously.

485 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 5:40:31am

re: #483 RogueOne

Looks like a few departments have issues with their policies for reviewing and screening officers. And I bet the Thin Blue Line has a lot of the same issues in policing their own that other insular groups have.

486 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 5:44:53am

Morning all!

From my Facebook:

How is everyone?

487 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 5:44:56am

re: #477 Obdicut

Yeah, but what 'it' is is just something we talk about.

Yes and no. I'm saying that "All the equations work backwards, too" is incorrect for the second law of thermodynamics, which is not time-reversal invariant. You actually have to make another (opposite) assertion in regard to it, that is not mathematically equivalent to the one we use.

You might argue that still does not decide in which direction we do move, and it's true. But why bring up the equations at all? Why should they be looked up to as a factor in the issue of the direction of the time arrow?

488 RogueOne  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 5:47:32am

More "anthrax" letters:

Suspicious letter sent to Sen. Alexander's Nashville office
[Link: www.bizjournals.com...]

According to The Associated Press, many members of Congress received letters containing a powdery but harmless substance Wednesday. Some national media outlets have received anonymous threats that 100 U.S. Senators would receive letters, 10 of which would contain a deadly pathogen.

and...
Suspicious letter prompts evacuations at Sen. Leahy's Vt office
[Link: www.wcax.com...]

How many does that make now?

489 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 5:49:01am

re: #486 ggt

Morning all!

From my Facebook:

How is everyone?

Cranky and caffeinated.

490 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 5:50:35am

OK, this is cute!

491 Obdicut  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 5:50:44am

re: #487 Black Cat, White Cat

Yes and no. I'm saying that "All the equations work backwards, too" is incorrect for the second law of thermodynamics, which is not time-reversal invariant.

It does, actually, work backward too, though. That it is changed doesn't mean it's not working. It violates no physical law; the law of thermodynamics are ones that apply when time is moving forwards.

You actually have to make another (opposite) assertion in regard to it, that is not mathematically equivalent to the one we use.

I'm not sure what you mean by not equivalent. There doesn't need to be anything added to it.

You might argue that still does not decide in which direction we do move, and it's true.

Or if we move.

But why bring up the equations at all? Why should they be looked up to as a factor in the issue of the direction of the time arrow?

I don't think that there is an issue of the direction of the time arrow. If you run time in one direction, the universe behaves another way. Run it the other direction, it behaves the other way. You have to change no physical laws in order to do so.

Of course, we can't do that, and to all appearances, time is running forwards. But since we can't even begin to remotely explain why, or how, I don't think building castles on the issue of time is a good idea.

492 RogueOne  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 5:53:00am

re: #469 Son You got a panty on your head.

Good Morning Honcos!

We visited NCTA (National Cable and Telecommunications Association) yesterday and had an interesting conversation about the changes in video entertainment delivery. They say they aren't bothered by Netflix, Hulu or other alternatives because "all they offer is Ghostbusters 2 and old reruns". Do you think someone has their head in the sand or what!?

Comcast is setting itself up nicely. They have bumped up against the legal limit on how many cable outlets they are allowed to own so they're busy diversifying. They own NBC and they just worked out a deal with Verizon. It won't be long before they own a couple movie studios.

493 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 5:53:04am

Brat Puppy a/k/a hunting dog decided the snow that was being blown from the roof this morning just might be a bird in disguise.

Now, Spaniels don't Point. They have this special stand in which they "point" with their nose smelling the air for clues.

This was more important that doing his business which he had adamantly told me he needed to do a few minutes earlier.

While we are both standing in the snow, being covered by it.

494 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 5:53:07am

re: #489 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste

Cranky and caffeinated.

I've been doing good at staying off the caffeine, but I do have a bottle of liquefied sugar standing by to help get me through the afternoon.

Now I'm just waiting on today's member of the Donut Club to make his/her delivery.

495 Shropshire_Slasher  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 5:54:56am

re: #494 thedopefishlives

Remember, a moment on the lips, a lifetime on the hips.

496 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 5:55:13am

There is a nasty 6 day virus going around. Hubby is getting over it --actually put him in the recliner for 3 days.

You guessed-it! I woke-up this am with a sore throat and a fever.

Think I should cancel everything for the next week now or should I wait?

497 RogueOne  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 5:56:22am

re: #493 ggt

Brat Puppy a/k/a hunting dog decided the snow that was being blown from the roof this morning just might be a bird in disguise.

Now, Spaniels don't Point. They have this special stand in which they "point" with their nose smelling the air for clues.

This was more important that doing his business which he had adamantly told me he needed to do a few minutes earlier.

While we are both standing in the snow, being covered by it.

My dog climbed the fence again yesterday to get to the little girl who lives in the house behind ours. That's twice now. The girl is maybe 6 years old but she was the instigator.

498 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 5:57:06am

re: #497 RogueOne

My dog climbed the fence again yesterday to get to the little girl who lives in the house behind ours. That's twice now. The girl is maybe 6 years old but she was the instigator.

dogs and kids go together

like a horse and carriage?

499 Kragar  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 5:58:03am

re: #496 ggt

There is a nasty 6 day virus going around. Hubby is getting over it --actually put him in the recliner for 3 days.

You guessed-it! I woke-up this am with a sore throat and a fever.

Think I should cancel everything for the next week now or should I wait?

I'm hoping what I got is just a virus. I'm going in to UrgentCare when it opens in the morning.

500 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 5:59:05am

re: #495 Tommy

Remember, a moment on the lips, a lifetime on the hips.

Heh. I actually have a very high metabolism. Even in my older age, after it's slowed down a bit from my hectic teenage years (when I could eat literally anything and not gain weight), I don't really have to worry about it so much.

501 Shropshire_Slasher  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 6:00:10am

re: #500 thedopefishlives

Napolean Dynamite: LUCKY

502 Gus  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 6:01:00am

re: #483 RogueOne

I'm sensing a pattern:

Woman’s 911 call prompts investigation of rehired officer
[Link: www.spokesman.com...]

I would think intentionally violating someone's civil rights would be enough reason to fire a police officer but I guess not.

Another:

Settlement awards officer job, back pay
[Link: www.spokesman.com...]

SNAFU. And once he retires he'll probably double-dip.

503 RogueOne  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 6:01:07am

re: #498 ggt

It's a 6' privacy fence but the dog knows if she gets a running start she can use it as a springboard and then climb over. The little girl thinks it's hilarious. I caught her doing it the first time. Last night I went to let her back in and she was gone. I heard the little girl laughing and knew right away she was playing with my dog. They were playing with a ball. I'm going to talk to her parents to let them know the dog won't hurt their kid before they come out and see my dog running around their yard.

504 Gus  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 6:01:08am
505 Kragar  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 6:02:50am

re: #504 Gus

Just like rape.

506 Gus  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 6:03:11am

275 grand and fired three years ago. That's roughly 92,000/year. Must be another one of those "underpayed" cops.

507 Gus  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 6:03:40am

re: #505 Kragar

Just like rape.

True. Rape is either "God's will" or "honest rape."

508 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 6:04:24am

re: #491 Obdicut

It does, actually, work backward too, though. That it is changed doesn't mean it's not working. It violates no physical law; the law of thermodynamics are ones that apply when time is moving forwards.

It doesn't actually work backward. The opposite law works backward. Not the one that works in our direction. That it is changed means that it's not working. The other laws work without changing. Which is why they're invariant, and 2LoT is not.

I'm not sure what you mean by not equivalent. There doesn't need to be anything added to it.

dS/dt>=0 is not equivalent to dS/dt<=0. It's a different mathematical expression and a different law. It's not equivalent to the second law of thermodynamics. It's its opposite.

I don't think that there is an issue of the direction of the time arrow. If you run time in one direction, the universe behaves another way. Run it the other direction, it behaves the other way. You have to change no physical laws in order to do so.

Yes, you have to change the second law of thermodynamics. That it's similar to our second law in layman's view doesn't change the fact that it's a different law.

Of course, we can't do that, and to all appearances, time is running forwards. But since we can't even begin to remotely explain why, or how, I don't think building castles on the issue of time is a good idea.

Your idea was that "time's linearity may simply be a perspective thing". However this ignores causality. Universe evolves in a specific direction, with recognizable causes preceding effects (e.g. hominid apes -> humans). Why that happens is a different question, but it does suggest that time's arrow is not simply a perspective thing.

509 Gus  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 6:05:15am

I see they're still partying in Afghanistan.

510 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 6:07:18am

re: #503 RogueOne

It's a 6' privacy fence but the dog knows if she gets a running start she can use it as a springboard and then climb over. The little girl thinks it's hilarious. I caught her doing it the first time. Last night I went to let her back in and she was gone. I heard the little girl laughing and knew right away she was playing with my dog. They were playing with a ball. I'm going to talk to her parents to let them know the dog won't hurt their kid before they come out and see my dog running around their yard.

too funny!

511 RogueOne  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 6:08:04am

re: #506 Gus

275 grand and fired three years ago. That's roughly 92,000/year. Must be another one of those "underpayed" cops.

I went to a cop party last weekend. 2 close friends from HS are both cops, one is the local union rep who happens to be married to a prosecutor, and I'm considered their token hippie. It makes for some fun arguments.

512 RogueOne  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 6:08:33am

re: #507 Gus

You said "rape" twice...

513 Gus  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 6:09:08am

re: #512 RogueOne

You said "rape" twice...

Once more and I'll have to toss some salt over my shoulder.

//

514 darthstar  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 6:09:41am

re: #512 RogueOne

You said "rape" twice...

Someone made that Blazing Saddles reference yesterday at work.

515 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 6:10:10am

re: #504 Gus

Yes, but so it was for Rick Perry and Michele Bachmann, and look what it got them.

516 Obdicut  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 6:10:14am

re: #508 Black Cat, White Cat

It doesn't actually work backward. The opposite law works backward. Not the one that works in our direction. That it is changed means that it's not working. The other laws work without changing. Which is why they're invariant, and 2LoT is not.

I'm not disagreeing that it's invariant. I'm saying that it's the opposite. The exact opposite.

It's a different mathematical expression and a different law. It's not equivalent to the second law of thermodynamics. It's its opposite.

Right. The exact opposite. Which means, if you're not considering time, that they're the same. Time goes one way, one is A and the other is B. Time goes the other way, one is B and the other is A.

Yes, you have to change the second law of thermodynamics. That it's similar to our second law in layman's view doesn't change the fact that it's a different law.

It's not 'similar', it's opposite.

Your idea was that "time's linearity may simply be a perspective thing". However this ignores causality.

Yes, causality may be illusory.

Universe evolves in a specific direction, with recognizable causes preceding effects (e.g. hominid apes -> humans).

You're begging the question of the direction of time when you say that, though. And not even all humans share that perception, anyway.

517 Kragar  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 6:11:36am

re: #515 thedopefishlives

Yes, but so it was for Rick Perry and Michele Bachmann, and look what it got them.

Their faith was obviously weak.

518 Gus  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 6:12:01am

re: #515 thedopefishlives

Yes, but so it was for Rick Perry and Michele Bachmann, and look what it got them.

It's working for Santorum. Apparently Romney is desperately trying to get in on the "holier than though" action. Regardless it's working for Santorum.

Ain't that America.

519 Gus  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 6:13:17am

re: #517 Kragar

Yes, but so it was for Rick Perry and Michele Bachmann, and look what it got them.

Their faith was obviously weak.

Yep. Santorum's is obviously the "one true faith." The "one true love."

Don't you know. Santorum loves you.

//

520 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 6:14:09am

re: #518 Gus

It's working for Santorum. Apparently Romney is desperately trying to get in on the "holier than though" action. Regardless it's working for Santorum.

Ain't that America.

I guess Santorum has that perfect mix of religious fervor and batshit insanity that Perry and Bachmann somehow lacked. Despite the fact that the latter two were far more entertaining to watch.

521 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 6:14:19am

re: #516 Obdicut

Use &[delete space]lt; for the bracket, or delete it.

522 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 6:15:42am

re: #515 thedopefishlives

Yes, but so it was for Rick Perry and Michele Bachmann, and look what it got them.

God must not want to be President.

523 Gus  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 6:16:04am

re: #520 thedopefishlives

I guess Santorum has that perfect mix of religious fervor and batshit insanity that Perry and Bachmann somehow lacked. Despite the fact that the latter two were far more entertaining to watch.

You know Americans. Don't forget Santorum wears that sweater vest nicely which makes him look like a college football or basketball coach. He's got the Tebow demographics sewn up. I'm sure half of the 42 percent think he's a war hero even.

524 darthstar  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 6:17:25am

re: #520 thedopefishlives

I guess Santorum has that perfect mix of religious fervor and batshit insanity that Perry and Bachmann somehow lacked. Despite the fact that the latter two were far more entertaining to watch.

She'd be his perfect running mate.

525 Gus  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 6:18:22am

I had to bail last night. Couldn't handle reading about all of these right-wingers any more. It's too much. It's like we've gone back in time. So much so that I laughingly thought to myself "so when are we going to invade Vietnam?" That's what's probably next. "Let's go back to Vietnam and finish what we started!"

Derp.

//

526 Obdicut  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 6:18:56am

re: #523 Gus

Don't worry, he served as a politician which is the same thing:

“I didn’t see working in government service and being in politics as anything but serving your country, and doing in some ways — in a civilian sense — what a lot of folks did in a military sense. And I saw it as something that is honorable and good to do.”

“The rest of the country doesn’t function unless the government keeps us free,” he added, “and we need people in politics just like we need people in uniform to do that.”

I don't think a lot of his supporters would agree that government service and being in politics is doing what the military does, but in a civilian sense.

I don't even understand what the hell he means, either. Obviously, politics comes with a lot more perks than the military.

527 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 6:19:11am

re: #523 Gus

You know Americans. Don't forget Santorum wears that sweater vest nicely which makes him look like a college football or basketball coach. He's got the Tebow demographics sewn up. I'm sure half of the 42 percent think he's a war hero even.

I'll admit it: Both my parents and my in-laws have said they'd vote for Santorum. I just kinda stared slack-jawed at my dad when he said it. I know the man is a die-hard social and fiscal conservative, but I mean, really, Dad?

528 Obdicut  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 6:19:25am

re: #525 Gus

I had to bail last night. Couldn't handle reading about all of these right-wingers any more. It's too much. It's like we've gone back in time. So much so that I laughingly thought to myself "so when are we going to invade Vietnam?" That's what's probably next. "Let's go back to Vietnam and finish what we started!"

Derp.

//

I hope they don't invade for a couple of months, I've got a team of testers working on my product over there right now.

529 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 6:19:54am

re: #525 Gus

I had to bail last night. Couldn't handle reading about all of these right-wingers any more. It's too much. It's like we've gone back in time. So much so that I laughingly thought to myself "so when are we going to invade Vietnam?" That's what's probably next. "Let's go back to Vietnam and finish what we started!"

Derp.

//

It's North Korea they are all upset about now. The Cold War is still going on and that stirs deep paranoia.

530 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 6:20:28am

re: #527 thedopefishlives

I'll admit it: Both my parents and my in-laws have said they'd vote for Santorum. I just kinda stared slack-jawed at my dad when he said it. I know the man is a die-hard social and fiscal conservative, but I mean, really, Dad?

Obama hatred makes people crazy. Literally.

531 Gus  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 6:21:04am

re: #529 ggt

It's North Korea they are all upset about now. The Cold War is still going on and that stirs deep paranoia.

Seems as thought they forgot about North Korea and are focused on Iran. But I've been shutting off the debate recently. Can't handle that crap anymore either.

532 iossarian  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 6:21:52am

re: #527 thedopefishlives

I'll admit it: Both my parents and my in-laws have said they'd vote for Santorum. I just kinda stared slack-jawed at my dad when he said it. I know the man is a die-hard social and fiscal conservative, but I mean, really, Dad?

Mullah envy. They want a big hard priest to put up against Iran's big hard priest.

533 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 6:22:06am

Suffice it to say, most of the die-hard Republican's I know have resigned themselves to another 4 years of Obama. They are pissed-as-hell at the GOP. They won't vote for Obama and that leaves them voting against him for a person they know will lose.

This is in Chicagoland, I don't know what it is like in the rest of the country.

534 Gus  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 6:22:11am

re: #527 thedopefishlives

I'll admit it: Both my parents and my in-laws have said they'd vote for Santorum. I just kinda stared slack-jawed at my dad when he said it. I know the man is a die-hard social and fiscal conservative, but I mean, really, Dad?

I'm going to have to remind my folks not to vote for Nader this time if they don't want some lunatic Republican Mullah to get into the White House.

535 Targetpractice  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 6:24:34am

re: #533 ggt

Suffice it to say, most of the die-hard Republican's I know have resigned themselves to another 4 years of Obama. They are pissed-as-hell at the GOP. They won't vote for Obama and that leaves them voting against him for a person they know will lose.

This is in Chicagoland, I don't know what it is like in the rest of the country.

Most of those I've talked to are still trying to convince themselves that they have a chance at the White House still. They seem to almost pray daily that the EU or China will collapse into an economic nightmare and drag us down with them, or that gas prices will continue to rise. It really is sad and almost horrific to think that people are wishing for things in this country to get worse just because it's the only way they can win the presidency.

536 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 6:24:39am

re: #530 ggt

Obama hatred makes people crazy. Literally.

That really appears to be what it is. They think the sooper-sekrit Muslim President is Teh Ebil. And it bothers me; yes, he's done some things that I don't like, but he's also done some good things. The incoming crop of Republican candidates seem hell-bent on throwing this country back to the Dark Ages.

537 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 6:24:41am

Honestly, if the choice is Socialism or a Theocracy (which seems to be the Whacko view of things), I'd take Socialism.

Only I think we are much more in danger of having a Christian Taliban than we are of having a Stalinistic (sp?) regime.

538 Daniel Ballard  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 6:25:29am

re: #534 Gus

I'm going to have to remind my folks not to vote for Nader this time if they don't want some lunatic Republican Mullah to get into the White House.

Heh. Mullah Santorum. That's how I'm going to refer to him in conversation. The only risk there is giving good Mullahs here a bad rep.

539 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 6:25:30am

re: #536 thedopefishlives

That really appears to be what it is. They think the sooper-sekrit Muslim President is Teh Ebil. And it bothers me; yes, he's done some things that I don't like, but he's also done some good things. The incoming crop of Republican candidates seem hell-bent on throwing this country back to the Dark Ages.

He is a Black Man in the White House.

Everything else is just a smoke screen for people who can't admit they are racist.

540 Gus  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 6:25:48am

This may sound strange too but Santorum doesn't remind me of any Italians I know. He also doesn't remind me of most Catholics. Santorum is a some kind of mainline Protestant in a Catholic package. Or something. He's just weird. Gingrich gives me those same vibes too. What's happened to the Catholic brand?

541 Gus  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 6:27:36am

Bill O'Donohue does the same thing to me. When I first heard him I was like, "you're a Catholic?" They're all like these big mouth televangelists.

542 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 6:27:45am

re: #539 ggt

He is a Black Man in the White House.

Everything else is just a smoke screen for people who can't admit they are racist.

I don't know. I do think that at least in my parents' case, they're genuinely afraid of his supposed Muslimity. Of course, they are staunchly anti-affirmative action, so who knows what's really going on in their heads.

543 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 6:28:06am

re: #540 Gus

This may sound strange too but Santorum doesn't remind me of any Italians I know. He also doesn't remind me of most Catholics. Santorum is a some kind of mainline Protestant in a Catholic package. Or something. He's just weird. Gingrich give me those same vibes too. What's happened to the Catholic brand?

I was thinking that too. The Opus Dei types are few and far between. I can't even say I've ever known any. I have family that religious, but not Whacko. Well, a couple are Whacko, but that is more a mental health issue than a religious issue.

I could never understand why people thought that voting for JFK would put the Pope in the Oval Office. I understand that feeling now with Santorum. Not so much Gingrich --he'd bend Church Doctrine like he bends the Constitution--in his image, not G-d's.

544 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 6:29:11am

re: #516 Obdicut

Right. The exact opposite. Which means, if you're not considering time, that they're the same. Time goes one way, one is A and the other is B. Time goes the other way, one is B and the other is A.

It's not 'similar', it's opposite.

But you cannot "not consider" the time, it's built-in in 2LoT. Which means that if you move backwards in time, 2LoT doesn't work. It's not "the same". Opposite is not the same, it's the opposite.
I don't want to argue this further, because it's simply a formal note. I understand what you're trying to say, I'm just pointing out that it's mistaken to say that it's "the same", when, physically, it is not.
Let's agree that it's "the same" for the purposes of your argument and leave it at that.
I will also point out that stating that "laws work backwards" is quite trivial. Of course they do - since we've already arrived here, we can "backtrack" everything. But that's neither here nor there.

Yes, causality may be illusory.

So can be the whole universe. Are we concerned about mere possibilities now?

You're begging the question of the direction of time when you say that, though. And not even all humans share that perception, anyway.

But I'm not. We know for a fact that humans did not devolve into hominid apes. As for "not even all humans share that perception", I don't know who are you talking about.

545 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 6:29:52am

re: #542 thedopefishlives

I don't know. I do think that at least in my parents' case, they're genuinely afraid of his supposed Muslimity. Of course, they are staunchly anti-affirmative action, so who knows what's really going on in their heads.

I'm not even afraid of the Islamic influence anymore. I live in a Major Metropolitan area. Even the women that wear head scarves around here are more sane than Santorum.

This is America -(HELLO, MELTING-POT). Get over it. There is no creeping Sharia, there are no calls to prayer in every community . . . .

546 Gus  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 6:31:31am

re: #543 ggt

I was thinking that too. The Opus Dei types are few and far between. I can't even say I've ever known any. I have family that religious, but not Whacko. Well, a couple are Whacko, but that is more a mental health issue than a religious issue.

I could never understand why people thought that voting for JFK would put the Pope in the Oval Office. I understand that feeling now with Santorum. Not so much Gingrich --he'd bend Church Doctrine like he bends the Constitution--in his image, not G-d's.

Maybe I'm biased. But that hybrid Santorum. The only people that would talk like him back in Jersey was somebody's grandmother from the old country. But even then they never were as hyper-neurotic about their relgion like he is. Santorum is over the top bonkers about his religion.

547 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 6:32:40am

re: #496 ggt

There is a nasty 6 day virus going around. Hubby is getting over it --actually put him in the recliner for 3 days.

You guessed-it! I woke-up this am with a sore throat and a fever.

Think I should cancel everything for the next week now or should I wait?

One reason I'm cranky is that I'm on Day 4 or Day 5 of a sinus infection run. Post-nasal drip, tired, and missing two days of work put me behind the 8-ball a bit there.

Topped off by the copier being broken, so I'll be getting emails about that most of the morning.

On the plus side I had a few ideas over the last night or two for RPG use. So I'm jotting down notes between user calls. (My muse strikes me at odd times, or strikes in odd ways. Thus the infamous "Droids Who Say 'Ni!'" text file still floating around among some of my role-playing friends.)

548 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 6:32:58am

re: #545 ggt

I'm not even afraid of the Islamic influence anymore. I live in a Major Metropolitan area. Even the women that wear head scarves around here are more sane than Santorum.

This is America -(HELLO, MELTING-POT). Get over it. There is no creeping Sharia, there are no calls to prayer in every community . . .

Heh. We have a large Somali Muslim population here. We've even had a few homegrown jihadists get busted after coming back from overseas jihad training camps or what have you. And even I'm not afraid of Islamism anymore. Let them have their mosques and their headscarves and their cultural traditions. As long as they aren't actively trying to blow anybody up, they're fine. And if they are, well, the FBI has been doing pretty good in the last 10 years, I'd say.

549 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 6:35:10am

re: #548 thedopefishlives

Heh. We have a large Somali Muslim population here. We've even had a few homegrown jihadists get busted after coming back from overseas jihad training camps or what have you. And even I'm not afraid of Islamism anymore. Let them have their mosques and their headscarves and their cultural traditions. As long as they aren't actively trying to blow anybody up, they're fine. And if they are, well, the FBI has been doing pretty good in the last 10 years, I'd say.

I think it is pretty clear after 10 years that "Muslims are people too". The Whackos come in all flavors --some are Muslim. Around here, most are Christian.

Nearly all the violent ones are young men that need to be identified before they become splody-types.

It's a mental health issue, not a religious issue.

550 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 6:35:25am

re: #515 thedopefishlives

Yes, but so it was for Rick Perry and Michele Bachmann, and look what it got them.

Yea. I wonder what mental gymnastics are going on in those minds to explain the failure of the GOP populace to embrace them as the annointed savior of the party.

551 Gus  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 6:36:05am

Don't forget that a significant portion of Santorum supporters are birthers. Also remember that unfortunately there's a noticeable population of birthers in this country. These same people ascribe to the "Obama's really a Muslim" theory or "Obama's not really a Christian." Santorum has an audience just as Franklin Graham has an audience.

552 iossarian  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 6:37:22am

So I know this is the Washington Times, but the actual reporting in this article appears legit, and it's just a fantastic example of how campaign financing is now irretrievably broken in the US:

Former Romney aide paid $2M by super PAC

Thanks a lot, conservative justices. We now live under a de facto oligarchy.

553 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 6:37:43am

re: #551 Gus

Don't forget that a significant portion of Santorum supporters are birthers. Also remember that unfortunately there's a noticeable population of birthers in this country. These same people ascribe to the "Obama's really a Muslim" theory or "Obama's not really a Christian." Santorum has an audience just as Franklin Graham has an audience.

This is true. Even people normally resistant to conspiracy theories are more than happy to buy into the Birther bullshit just because it's a way to hang on to Obama hatred.

554 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 6:38:41am

re: #533 ggt

Suffice it to say, most of the die-hard Republican's I know have resigned themselves to another 4 years of Obama. They are pissed-as-hell at the GOP. They won't vote for Obama and that leaves them voting against him for a person they know will lose.

This is in Chicagoland, I don't know what it is like in the rest of the country.

My New Jersey friends are considering which independent they're going to vote for. All the current GOP crop fail their needs one way or another, and NJ politics (such as Corzine) have them very anti-Democratic Party still.

555 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 6:39:42am

re: #546 Gus

Maybe I'm biased. But that hybrid Santorum. The only people that would talk like him back in Jersey was somebody's grandmother from the old country. But even then they never were as hyper-neurotic about their relgion like he is. Santorum is over the top bonkers about his religion.

He is like a recent convert.

I grew-up Catholic. Went to Catholic School. The people I know who are into the religion are mostly people who have kids in Catholic School and are very involved in their Parish as a result. Even they don't preach. They just walk the walk and try to get thru their day.

The religion can be comforting and is very helpful in raising children who think before they act.

Even my son, who is more religious than I ever was, is asking the big questions now. He realizes so much of it is ritual and tradition. But it is there if he wants it in the future.

Many of the immigrants in my are choose Catholic Education over Public School because they don't want the influence of the gang bangers. There are many reasons to choose a religious community that don't include religious fervor.

556 Gus  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 6:39:50am

Here you go. Gallup poll from last year. Only 47% said that Obama was definitely born in the USA. That leaves the other 53% with their heads up their ass.

May 13, 2011
Obama's Birth Certificate Convinces Some, but Not All, Skeptics

23 percent of Republicans in this poll "probably or definitely" believe that Obama was born in another country.

Bottom Line

President Obama's release of his long-form birth certificate appears to have significantly reduced skepticism about his place of birth, but by no means completely. All political groups are more likely after the release than they were before it to say Obama was definitely or probably born in the U.S. Still, 13% of all Americans and nearly one in four Republicans continue to say he was definitely or probably born in another country. And one in five Americans still say they don't know enough to say one way or the other.

557 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 6:40:09am

re: #547 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste

One reason I'm cranky is that I'm on Day 4 or Day 5 of a sinus infection run. Post-nasal drip, tired, and missing two days of work put me behind the 8-ball a bit there.

Topped off by the copier being broken, so I'll be getting emails about that most of the morning.

On the plus side I had a few ideas over the last night or two for RPG use. So I'm jotting down notes between user calls. (My muse strikes me at odd times, or strikes in odd ways. Thus the infamous "Droids Who Say 'Ni!'" text file still floating around among some of my role-playing friends.)

(oaktree)

558 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 6:40:32am

re: #550 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste

Yes, but so it was for Rick Perry and Michele Bachmann, and look what it got them.

Yea. I wonder what mental gymnastics are going on in those minds to explain the failure of the GOP populace to embrace them as the annointed savior of the party.

Lucifer!!!

559 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 6:41:52am

re: #556 Gus

Here you go. Gallup poll from last year. Only 47% said that Obama was definitely born in the USA. That leaves the other 53% with their heads up their ass.

May 13, 2011
Obama's Birth Certificate Convinces Some, but Not All, Skeptics

23 percent of Republicans in this poll "probably or definitely" believe that Obama was born in another country.

IIRC they got worse since then (turned into Newts).

560 Gus  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 6:42:02am

re: #555 ggt

He is like a recent convert.

I grew-up Catholic. Went to Catholic School. The people I know who are into the religion are mostly people who have kids in Catholic School and are very involved in their Parish as a result. Even they don't preach. They just walk the walk and try to get thru their day.

The religion can be comforting and is very helpful in raising children who think before they act.

Even my son, who is more religious than I ever was, is asking the big questions now. He realizes so much of it is ritual and tradition. But it is there if he wants it in the future.

Many of the immigrants in my are choose Catholic Education over Public School because they don't want the influence of the gang bangers. There are many reasons to choose a religious community that don't include religious fervor.

Those were close to my thoughts as well. One being that he sounds like a recent convert. Another being all the evangelizing. I grew up Catholic for the most part. Went to Catholic school; my dad a seminary; my mom worked for the nuns. Catholics typically don't evangelize. Santorum is not your typical Catholic -- not even close.

561 Kragar  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 6:42:21am

Jon Stewart Can’t Believe The GOP Primary Race Is Still Going

562 Gus  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 6:42:59am

re: #559 Black Cat, White Cat

IIRC they got worse since then (turned into Newts).

Yep. Was thinking the same thing. It was getting better for a while there but it's been rekindled with Donald Trump and others. There's been a "re-birth" of birtherism if you will.

563 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 6:43:53am

re: #562 Gus

Yep. Was thinking the same thing. It was getting better for a while there but it's been rekindled with Donald Trump and others. There's been a "re-birth" of birtherism if you will.

The GOP is scrambling to hit every paranoid nerve out there.

They are using fear to get votes.

564 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 6:44:09am

re: #562 Gus

Yep. Was thinking the same thing. It was getting better for a while there but it's been rekindled with Donald Trump and others. There's been a "re-birth" of birtherism if you will.

Sound like a horror movie title.
Birther II: Reborn.

565 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 6:44:39am

re: #564 Black Cat, White Cat

Sound like a horror movie title.
Birther II: Reborn..

aaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhh!

(ggt hides under bed)

566 Obdicut  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 6:44:42am

re: #544 Black Cat, White Cat

But you cannot "not consider" the time, it's built-in in 2LoT. Which means that if you move backwards in time, 2LoT doesn't work. It's not "the same". Opposite is not the same, it's the opposite.

It doesn't work, it becomes the opposite. But I don't see why you find that problematic. 2LoT is describing things from our perspective, it's saying "As time moves forwards, this happens". Saying that when time moves backwards, what happens as time moves forwards doesn't happen doesn't seem problematic to me.

I don't want to argue this further, because it's simply a formal note. I understand what you're trying to say, I'm just pointing out that it's mistaken to say that it's "the same", when, physically, it is not.

Well, for certain values of 'same'.

So can be the whole universe. Are we concerned about mere possibilities now?

The possibility that time is a perceptual notion is very different from the idea that the entire universe is a perceptual notion. Time is definitely an interestingly special thing, and deserves to be treated as such. I mean, even basic special relatively tells us that there are observers for whom time does not actually progress at all, and for whom no events will ever occur.

But I'm not. We know for a fact that humans did not devolve into hominid apes.

Sure, if you assume that time moves forwards. I personally believe in causality, but it's not something that we actually understand. I think that the CDT is convincing but I can't, obviously, properly evaluate it, not being nearly educated enough.

What I'm objecting to is the idea that causality exists because we perceive it exists; if causality does exist, it's got to be explainable. I think CDT explains it, but I don't have the background to really assess it.

As for "not even all humans share that perception", I don't know who are you talking about.

There are lots of human beings who view time as cyclical, or intertwined, and who do not believe in direct causality. You could say they're just wrong, of course.

567 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 6:45:09am

re: #565 ggt

aaahhh!

(ggt hides under bed)

AWAWAWAWA! *O*

568 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 6:45:38am

re: #563 ggt

The GOP is scrambling to hit every paranoid nerve out there.

They are using fear to get votes.

And this royally pisses me off. I refuse to live in fear. There are things I should be afraid of, sure, but they are not going to dominate my life and make me paranoid. I would rather enjoy life as it comes, and if something happens - it happens. I'll deal with it then. No sense crying over milk I haven't even spilled yet.

569 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 6:45:53am

re: #555 ggt

He is like a recent convert.

I grew-up Catholic. Went to Catholic School. The people I know who are into the religion are mostly people who have kids in Catholic School and are very involved in their Parish as a result. Even they don't preach. They just walk the walk and try to get thru their day.

The religion can be comforting and is very helpful in raising children who think before they act.

Even my son, who is more religious than I ever was, is asking the big questions now. He realizes so much of it is ritual and tradition. But it is there if he wants it in the future.

Many of the immigrants in my are choose Catholic Education over Public School because they don't want the influence of the gang bangers. There are many reasons to choose a religious community that don't include religious fervor.

The bolded part is one of the main ideas in George Marshall's _Challenge of a Liberal Faith_.

570 Eventual Carrion  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 6:46:31am

re: #44 b_sharp

Every zygote is a potential human.

Every cell is a potential cancer.

571 Gus  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 6:47:32am

re: #563 ggt

The GOP is scrambling to hit every paranoid nerve out there.

They are using fear to get votes.

That's one of the emotionally draining features of the Republican Party today. Everything is based on fear and/or hatred. They barely have anything positive to say outside of a utopian conservative vision of this country. They're basically saying that "America is not great" but "it can be great if you vote for me." And allegedly follow their principles whatever those might be. But it's fear. Fear of gays, Muslims, atheists, Iran, education, EPA, contraception, etc. And it's so odd that you get to lump in the odd couple of Muslims and atheists.

572 Gus  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 6:48:48am

"Vote for Santorum or America gets it!"

//

573 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 6:49:00am

re: #571 Gus

That's one of the emotionally draining features of the Republican Party today. Everything is based on fear and/or hatred. They barely have anything positive to say outside of a utopian conservative vision of this country. They're basically saying that "America is not great" but "it can be great if you vote for me." And allegedly follow their principles whatever those might be. But it's fear. Fear of gays, Muslims, atheists, Iran, education, EPA, contraception, etc. And it's so odd that you get to lump in the odd couple of Muslims and atheists.

Well, because technically we're supposed to be afraid of anything non-"Christian". Which includes both of the above and more.

574 Gus  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 6:49:26am

Guillotines! Death panels! Nuclear annihilation!

575 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 6:49:34am

re: #571 Gus

That's one of the emotionally draining features of the Republican Party today. Everything is based on fear and/or hatred. They barely have anything positive to say outside of a utopian conservative vision of this country. They're basically saying that "America is not great" but "it can be great if you vote for me." And allegedly follow their principles whatever those might be. But it's fear. Fear of gays, Muslims, atheists, Iran, education, EPA, contraception, etc. And it's so odd that you get to lump in the odd couple of Muslims and atheists.

Patricians vowing to restore the Republic

Imams vowing to restore the Caliphate.

I don't see much difference.

576 Obdicut  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 6:49:47am

re: #571 Gus

They really are an amazingly negative bunch. It's weird how quickly they went from bashing liberals for being negative about the US, to being highly negative about the US themselves.

577 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 6:51:04am

re: #568 thedopefishlives

And this royally pisses me off. I refuse to live in fear. There are things I should be afraid of, sure, but they are not going to dominate my life and make me paranoid. I would rather enjoy life as it comes, and if something happens - it happens. I'll deal with it then. No sense crying over milk I haven't even spilled yet.

And it's pounding the same keys as racism and bigotry. Fear the other - they're coming to take your job, your women, your country, etc. etc. etc.

It's a control mechanism. Create an underclass that you can point to and tell the rubes they are better than, but are threatening them. And that therefore we need to be kept in power and control of resources in order to keep the lid on the pot.

That's the driving principle - keeping in power. And once education, technology, or the Enlightenment start to challenge this hierarchy they will be demonized and the masses will be told that it is now the enemy.

578 iossarian  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 6:51:12am

re: #574 Gus

Guillotines! Death panels! Nuclear annihilation!

That nasty shouty hippity-hop music!

579 Gus  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 6:51:36am

re: #576 Obdicut

They really are an amazingly negative bunch. It's weird how quickly they went from bashing liberals for being negative about the US, to being highly negative about the US themselves.

Daily. Gingrich being the worst of this bunch. The man is walking negative campaign machine. Sometimes worse than Santorum.

580 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 6:53:05am

On a positive note:

I got to meet the most wonderful woman last night at a local book talk.

I also learned a few things about the Underground Railroad that I never knew. Very interesting and uplifting stuff.

581 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 6:53:15am

re: #577 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste

And it's pounding the same keys as racism and bigotry. Fear the other - they're coming to take your job, your women, your country, etc. etc. etc.

It's a control mechanism. Create an underclass that you can point to and tell the rubes they are better than, but are threatening them. And that therefore we need to be kept in power and control of resources in order to keep the lid on the pot.

That's the driving principle - keeping in power. And once education, technology, or the Enlightenment start to challenge this hierarchy they will be demonized and the masses will be told that it is now the enemy.

One of the reasons that I've always been a strong advocate for an educated electorate. Not necessarily educated in an academic sense, but if you're drooling on your keyboard, perhaps you aren't qualified to vote.

/Though I should be careful, because that'd probably leave me out too

582 Gus  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 6:54:18am

re: #578 iossarian

That nasty shouty hippity-hop music!

That would probably fall under Santorum's "culture" and "Satan" complaints. It's the 1950s and rock music all over again.

583 Gus  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 6:55:08am

"Three Men and a White-Haired Man-Baby"

585 darthstar  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 6:56:38am

re: #583 Gus

"Three Men and a White-Haired Man-Baby"

Just watched that...pretty good.

586 Obdicut  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 6:56:44am

To put it another way: The GOP tends to talk about the US as existing entirely sepearate from its government. They talk about it as one would talk about an ethnicity. That kind of makes their obsession with racial and cultural politics make more sense.

It's very odd. They fetishize the Constitution, which is the founding document of a government, but then they talk about the country as though the government is an unfortunate tumorous growth.

The Founding Fathers weren't anarchists who regretted the necessity of government at all, they really wanted to construct a government that would function, that would govern while not unduly limiting freedoms. And the original government was also supposed to be highly non-military; they didn't want a standing army, so obviously the main purpose of the government wasn't the administration of the armed forces, as many glibertarians imagine it to be.

The founding fathers didn't mean to make the US an anarchy but fuck it up. They really meant it to be a modern nation, a nation of laws, that could adapt and serve its people as necessary. This was immediate apparent when they bought Louisiana.

587 Gus  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 6:56:58am

re: #584 Kragar

John Oliver explains why the Republican Party objects to Rick Santorum's unadulterated conservative dogma.

Two Daily Show references in a row.

Clearly Jon Stewart is taking over the universe.

588 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 6:57:54am

re: #586 Obdicut

To put it another way: The GOP tends to talk about the US as existing entirely sepearate from its government. They talk about it as one would talk about an ethnicity. That kind of makes their obsession with racial and cultural politics make more sense.

It's very odd. They fetishize the Constitution, which is the founding document of a government, but then they talk about the country as though the government is an unfortunate tumorous growth.

The Founding Fathers weren't anarchists who regretted the necessity of government at all, they really wanted to construct a government that would function, that would govern while not unduly limiting freedoms. And the original government was also supposed to be highly non-military; they didn't want a standing army, so obviously the main purpose of the government wasn't the administration of the armed forces, as many glibertarians imagine it to be.

The founding fathers didn't mean to make the US an anarchy but fuck it up. They really meant it to be a modern nation, a nation of laws, that could adapt and serve its people as necessary. This was immediate apparent when they bought Louisiana.

There were arguments over Lousiana Purchase too! We argue a lot in this country, from the beginning.

Somehow it all works out.

589 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 6:58:36am

re: #566 Obdicut

It doesn't work, it becomes the opposite. But I don't see why you find that problematic.

I find your specific language problematic, not the substance of what you're saying. I think I said as much in the prev. comment. Which is why I'm not inclined to pursue this point further, since it adds nothing to the main discussion.

The possibility that time is a perceptual notion is very different from the idea that the entire universe is a perceptual notion. Time is definitely an interestingly special thing, and deserves to be treated as such. I mean, even basic special relatively tells us that there are observers for whom time does not actually progress at all, and for whom no events will ever occur.

No, you said causality is illusory. How is it illusory?

Sure, if you assume that time moves forwards.

No, unless you're saying evolution (among many other things) is, too, a matter of mere perception. Because we know the mechanisms of many processes that have happened in the past. Particularly we know the general mechanisms of evolution. We know that it, unlike certain physical laws, cannot not work backwards in time to fit the specific pattern that we observe in the fossil record, among the existing species etc.

I personally believe in causality, but it's not something that we actually understand. I think that the CDT is convincing but I can't, obviously, properly evaluate it, not being nearly educated enough.

What I'm objecting to is the idea that causality exists because we perceive it exists; if causality does exist, it's got to be explainable. I think CDT explains it, but I don't have the background to really assess it.

Again, explanation of "why" is a different matter. We know causality exists (on a macroscopic scale, at least) because we observe it to exist. The possibility of causality being illusory is on a par with the omphalos argument or a Matrix worldview. Sure, everything is possible. But what do we actually observe with our admittedly faulty instruments (eyes, brains, whatever)?

If and when in a distant part of the universe we actually observe a zone in which time runs backwards from our perspective - i.e. they're moving to our Big Bang - a Big Crunch for them - then it will be useful to seriously address the notion of time being mere perception. Until then? I don't see why such a possibility should be taken seriously (outside of metaphysical articles in philosophical journals; or sci-fi).

590 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 6:59:40am

Enough of the GOP --

What is everyone reading right now (besides this blog)?

591 Kragar  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 7:00:34am

re: #590 ggt

Enough of the GOP --

What is everyone reading right now (besides this blog)?

Watching Supernatural until UrgentCare opens.

592 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 7:01:16am

re: #591 Kragar

Watching Supernatural until UrgentCare opens.

(Kragar)

593 Gus  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 7:01:19am

re: #591 Kragar

Watching Supernatural until UrgentCare opens.

UrgentCare?

594 Kragar  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 7:02:46am

re: #593 Gus

UrgentCare?

When you need to see a doctor, but not go to an emergency room.

595 Gus  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 7:03:18am

re: #594 Kragar

When you need to see a doctor, but not go to an emergency room.

OK. Just wondering what was up. Hope it's nothing serious.

596 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 7:04:26am

re: #590 ggt

Enough of the GOP --

What is everyone reading right now (besides this blog)?

Re-reading the NIST report on WTC 1 and 2.

597 Kragar  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 7:04:54am

re: #595 Gus

OK. Just wondering what was up. Hope it's nothing serious.

Same here, I think its just a virus, but the stomache pains have been really bad. My daughter has come down with the same thing, so we're both going in.

598 Obdicut  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 7:05:03am

re: #589 Black Cat, White Cat

No, you said causality is illusory. How is it illusory?

No I didn't.

Again, explanation of "why" is a different matter. We know causality exists (on a macroscopic scale, at least) because we observe it to exist.

No, observation of events isn't sufficient, since different observers will observe different things. There are observers who will disagree that something has, in fact, occurred.

If and when in a distant part of the universe we actually observe a zone in which time runs backwards from our perspective - i.e. they're moving to our Big Bang - a Big Crunch for them - then it will be useful to seriously address the notion of time being mere perception.

We already have places where time is probably not progressing at all, or entirely breaks down, with singularities. We have no idea what goes on inside them. Causality may entirely break.

I don't get why we would need to observe something before hypothesizing against it. A hell of a lot of modern physics is about unobserved things.

599 darthstar  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 7:05:23am

re: #594 Kragar

When you need to see a doctor, but not go to an emergency room.

Doesn't the fact that you have to wait for URGENTCARE to open kind of defeat the purpose?

600 Obdicut  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 7:05:42am

re: #597 Kragar

Same here, I think its just a virus, but the stomache pains have been really bad. My daughter has come down with the same thing, so we're both going in.

If you can, make a list of the things that you and she have both eaten.

601 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 7:05:50am

re: #590 ggt

Enough of the GOP --

What is everyone reading right now (besides this blog)?

Email notices about meetings scheduled two weeks from now.

The History of Dorset (Google search).

And modifying a SQL proc that generates XML format of table data for requesting ELT payments between banks.

602 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 7:05:56am

re: #596 thedopefishlives

Re-reading the NIST report on WTC 1 and 2.

Pick-up anything new.

Can Steel really melt?

603 darthstar  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 7:06:27am

re: #597 Kragar

Same here, I think its just a virus, but the stomache pains have been really bad. My daughter has come down with the same thing, so we're both going in.

I've got five bucks that says they see your daughter first.

604 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 7:07:12am

re: #602 ggt

Pick-up anything new.

Can Steel really melt?

Of course it can melt, but that's beside the issue (as we all well know). The interesting thing is that the towers might've survived, had the spray-on fire retardant material not been blown off by the aircraft's impact.

605 Kragar  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 7:07:33am

re: #600 Obdicut

If you can, make a list of the things that you and she have both eaten.

Yeah, already thought of that. My wife and older daughter have eaten the same things and are fine, and my other girl was fine until last night.

606 NJDhockeyfan  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 7:08:17am

Good morning lizards!

What a beautiful day ahead of us here in Virginia :)

607 Gus  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 7:08:36am

re: #597 Kragar

Same here, I think its just a virus, but the stomache pains have been really bad. My daughter has come down with the same thing, so we're both going in.

I had a bout of something last weekend. No stomach pains though and it went away after a few days.

608 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 7:08:40am

And Sergey's most recent nick reminds me of a stretch of Sansom St over near Penn.

In adjacent (or nearly adjacent) stores built into a set of old row houses are:
The Black Cat Gift Shop
The White Dog Cafe

:)

The latter is quite good, if a bit expensive. Haven't been over there in a few years. Pennsylvania Dutch cooking.

609 Kragar  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 7:09:50am

re: #599 darthstar

Doesn't the fact that you have to wait for URGENTCARE to open kind of defeat the purpose?

Emergency room would be a couple hundred bucks just walking in the door.

If I called my doctor, I'd have to wait until 9:00 to see if they would be able to even see us today.

610 Obdicut  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 7:10:31am

re: #605 Kragar

Yeah, already thought of that. My wife and older daughter have eaten the same things and are fine, and my other girl was fine until last night.

Well, keep an eye on 'em.

Just for my own paranoia, do either you or your daughter have a stiff neck?

611 Kragar  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 7:11:13am

re: #610 Obdicut

Well, keep an eye on 'em.

Just for my own paranoia, do either you or your daughter have a stiff neck?

No

612 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 7:11:43am

re: #602 ggt

Pick-up anything new.

Can Steel really melt?

Is that some sort of riddle?

613 Obdicut  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 7:12:22am

re: #611 Kragar

No

Good. That means you probably don't have meningitis. It's just something my wife always asks about anyone reporting strong flu-like symptoms, since it's such a killer. But it almost always presents with a stiff neck, which is nice of it to be recognizable like that.

614 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 7:13:42am

re: #607 Gus

I had a bout of something last weekend. No stomach pains though and it went away after a few days.

Hubby got stomach pains from coughing. Finally it worked thru him in the most unpleasant way.

615 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 7:14:17am

re: #612 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste

Is that some sort of riddle?

No, bad joke.

616 Petero1818  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 7:15:41am

OT:
I have never been a huge Bush family fan, but I find Jeb's recent comments to Fox News kind of refreshing.

“I used to be a conservative, and I watch these debates and I’m wondering, I don’t think I’ve changed, but it’s a little troubling sometimes when people are appealing to people’s fears and emotion rather than trying to get them to look over the horizon for a broader perspective, and that’s kind of where we are,” said Bush,

Read more: [Link: www.politico.com...]

617 lawhawk  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 7:16:04am

Greets and saluts from the NYC metro area. What I've been reading/working on: The situation remains dire in Syria; Maryland is on the cusp of passing legislation legalizing gay marriage (though there's a move afoot to petition to get a referendum on the November ballot that would overrule the law if enacted); Putin won first round of election; and the NYPD monitoring of Muslim groups both inside and outside NYC appears to have gone overboard and needs to be reined in, despite claims that it was legal according to Bloomberg and Commissioner Kelly.

618 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 7:17:16am

re: #616 The Artist formerly known as Satan

OT:
I have never been a huge Bush family fan, but I find Jeb's recent comments to Fox News kind of refreshing.

“I used to be a conservative, and I watch these debates and I’m wondering, I don’t think I’ve changed, but it’s a little troubling sometimes when people are appealing to people’s fears and emotion rather than trying to get them to look over the horizon for a broader perspective, and that’s kind of where we are,” said Bush,

Read more: [Link: www.politico.com...]

Bush's are old school conservative political dynasty.

They don't get caught up the daily dog and pony show like the newer politicans do.

619 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 7:18:59am

re: #617 lawhawk

Greets and saluts from the NYC metro area. What I've been reading/working on: The situation remains dire in Syria; Maryland is on the cusp of passing legislation legalizing gay marriage (though there's a move afoot to petition to get a referendum on the November ballot that would overrule the law if enacted); Putin won first round of election; and the NYPD monitoring of Muslim groups both inside and outside NYC appears to have gone overboard and needs to be reined in, despite claims that it was legal according to Bloomberg and Commissioner Kelly.

Do you often wonder if officials realize that there is a difference between legal, right, and ethical?

And that once you destroy trust in an office or establishment it is very hard for it to be regained?

620 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 7:19:36am

re: #598 Obdicut

No I didn't.

OK, pardon, "may be illusory". In what sense it "may be" illusory?

No, observation of events isn't sufficient, since different observers will observe different things. There are observers who will disagree that something has, in fact, occurred.

Actually it is. I gave you an example of evolution. Both on Earth, and the cosmic evolution in the observable Universe. We know that there was a chain of causes in this evolution. And we agree that it has, in fact occurred. And we know that there are no actual mechanisms for it to run from the future-to-past perspective.

Another example: a book. If the future-to-past perspective is as valid as past-to-future perspective, then it is valid for complex information, like the contents of the book, to just spring up from nowhere, apparently uncaused.

We already have places where time is probably not progressing at all, or entirely breaks down, with singularities. We have no idea what goes on inside them. Causality may entirely break.

I don't get why we would need to observe something before hypothesizing against it. A hell of a lot of modern physics is about unobserved things.

I did not say that "we would need to observe something before hypothesizing against it". I said that until we observe this specific rather far-fetched condition, it is a mere possibility, like a possibility that IPU created the Universe last Thursday. Of course, people speculated about those too. I don't find it fruitful. Opinions may differ, of course.

621 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 7:21:41am

Ok, my mind is fogging over.

I'm going back to bed.

C U all later.

622 darthstar  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 7:22:02am

re: #609 Kragar

Emergency room would be a couple hundred bucks just walking in the door.

If I called my doctor, I'd have to wait until 9:00 to see if they would be able to even see us today.

Yep...been there, done that. I'm lucky in that I've got this German doctor in Half Moon Bay whose office is a small house. Just his secretary and him in the place. I've yet to wait to see him. Used to have Kaiser (hated that fucking place with their triage system - watched a girl go into labor once and nobody paid attention...I finally had to shout, "This girl is having a fucking baby here!" - the docs said that she told them she wasn't pregnant to keep it from her mom...I said, "You're the doctors...diagnose.")

623 Sheila Broflovski  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 7:22:28am

re: #267 Interesting Times

Moonbat tweets

But are they really giving that up for "Lent"? That's their usual for all year round.

624 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 7:22:35am

re: #617 lawhawk

Putin won first round of election;

He hasn't yet. Or he has, 4 years ago. Just not today or recently ;)

625 Gus  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 7:24:39am

Oh boy. Shades of days gone by.

626 lawhawk  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 7:25:25am

re: #624 Black Cat, White Cat

You're right - it's a poll saying he's likely to win.

627 Gus  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 7:26:05am

re: #625 Gus

Oh boy. Shades of days gone by.

[Embedded content]

The quote:

This group of house-Jews will work hard to convince that Obama is really pro-Israel, but short of Bobby Ewing stepping out of the shower and claiming the last two years were just a bad dream, or simply lying, I am at a loss at how these how these modern day Kapos-in training, will be able to convince people of the President is really a buddy of the Jewish State.

628 Obdicut  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 7:26:41am

re: #620 Black Cat, White Cat

OK, pardon, "may be illusory". In what sense it "may be" illusory?

In a number of senses. There may be no discernible separation from events, for example-- pure determinism may be the case. You could call that a form of causality, I suppose, but it would mean that nothing is ever caused, really; everything is always going to go along the exact same path.

Actually it is. I gave you an example of evolution. Both on Earth, and the cosmic evolution in the observable Universe.

I'm sorry, I have no idea where you're going with the evolution thing. Obviously if you're just talking about the observation that things happen after effect, you don't need evolution, you can just drop a pencil.

I did not say that "we would need to observe something before hypothesizing against it". I said that until we observe this specific rather far-fetched condition,

Have you read George Musser?

629 lawhawk  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 7:27:15am

Grrr... clashes at the Temple Mount. Palestinians throw rocks at Jewish worshippers and police at the Western Wall after police stopped a group of Palestinians marching in protest of the rumor that Jewish activists were prepping to enter the Temple Mount.

Friday’s incident began after Muslim noon prayers. Hundreds of worshippers emerging from the two mosques in the walled compound staged a demonstration protesting the rumored plans by far right activists to enter the shrine.

Police spokesman Micky Rosenfeld said hundreds of worshippers threw rocks at police, who fired stun grenades to disperse the crowd. Najeh Bkeirat, a Muslim official at the scene, said demonstrators began throwing stones after police tried to stop their march.

Rosenfeld said 11 officers were lightly hurt by rocks. Bkeirat said about 30 Palestinians were treated at the scene for light injuries from tear gas inhalation and scuffles. Rosenfeld said no tear gas was fired and that four Palestinians were arrested.

630 NJDhockeyfan  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 7:27:36am

I hope nobody losses their head over this...

Banned films shown at Persian Film Festival

In Iran, producers and directors risk being jailed for films that defy the regime, but film-makers attending the Persian Film Festival in Sydney are determined to get their message out.

One film, 'I am Nasrine', is shot in modern day Tehran. It is a story about love and life from previously unheard voices.

British-Iranian writer and director, Tina Gharvani, filmed in secret during the failed Green revolution of 2009, to depict the modern refugee experience.

"I made this film to be able to see my own experiences in cinema. I mean, that was what was missing ... was my story. And for the diaspora I think that is tough," she told SBS.

Her film, which also tackles homosexuality and rape, has been banned in Iran.

...

631 darthstar  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 7:29:50am

re: #627 Gus

Bob Ewing?
Image: s002901.jpg

632 NJDhockeyfan  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 7:32:59am

Iran may be causing the gas prices to rise but now they've really done it...

Is Iran Conflict Increasing Sausage Costs?

For centuries, the citizens of Nuremberg have celebrated their petite bratwurst, which are often served up by the half dozen on heart-shaped plates. But one local producer says his costs have nearly tripled in the past 18 months, due to the rising costs of one key ingredient: sheep's intestines from Iran.

633 Gus  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 7:33:22am

Getting a strong signal now.

//

634 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 7:34:28am

re: #628 Obdicut

In a number of senses. There may be no discernible separation from events, for example-- pure determinism may be the case. You could call that a form of causality, I suppose, but it would mean that nothing is ever caused, really; everything is always going to go along the exact same path.

You probably mean the block view of the universe. Such a view is static, but I disagree that it is acausal. It's akin to the game Life, where we can predict the position of squares acc. to predetermined rules. We can still meaningfully state that a position of a square on an X-Y grid is caused by such, and such and such factors, or that a grid state in t2 is caused by a grid state in t1+the rules.

I'm sorry, I have no idea where you're going with the evolution thing.

It gives you the arrow of time of the observable universe.

Have you read George Musser?

No.

635 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 7:34:43am

re: #629 lawhawk

Grrr... clashes at the Temple Mount. Palestinians throw rocks at Jewish worshippers and police at the Western Wall after police stopped a group of Palestinians marching in protest of the rumor that Jewish activists were prepping to enter the Temple Mount.

Stuff like this is what makes we wish that we could send all the extremists and activists of the competing sides off somewhere to get on with the fighting they want to do while those who just want to live their lives can be left in relatively peaceful cooperation and tolerance.

636 Kronocide  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 7:37:28am

One minor quibble with Charles' informative display graphic.

The uterus should be called the Temple of Life.

637 Obdicut  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 7:38:39am

re: #611 Kragar

My wife's advice: If you're having motor or cognition deficits, get ye to the hospital. If you're having behavior changes, get ye to a hospital. If you have bloody diarrhea, get ye to the hospital. You probably 'just' have a really nasty GI virus, and should be careful about sanitizing the bathroom after you use it so as not to spread stuff.

And hydrate, and remember you need salt, so gatorade is good, but sugary, so dilute it.

Hope you feel better, man.

638 Kronocide  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 7:39:21am

And while we're at it, change the transducer to the Staff of Shame.

639 Kragar  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 7:42:58am

re: #637 Obdicut

My wife's advice: If you're having motor or cognition deficits, get ye to the hospital. If you're having behavior changes, get ye to a hospital. If you have bloody diarrhea, get ye to the hospital. You probably 'just' have a really nasty GI virus, and should be careful about sanitizing the bathroom after you use it so as not to spread stuff.

And hydrate, and remember you need salt, so gatorade is good, but sugary, so dilute it.

Hope you feel better, man.

No, no, and no. Just the intermittent stomach pains, I'll be fine for a bit, then it feels like hell for a few minutes, then subsides. Taking off in about 10 minutes to get them checked out.

640 Obdicut  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 7:43:12am

re: #634 Black Cat, White Cat

You probably mean the block view of the universe. Such a view is static, but I disagree that it is acausal. It's akin to the game Life, where we can predict the position of squares acc. to predetermined rules. We can still meaningfully state that a position of a square on an X-Y grid is caused by such, and such and such factors, or that a grid state in t2 is caused by a grid state in t1+the rules.

Only if you know the entire grid.

It gives you the arrow of time of the observable universe.

So does dropping a pencil, right?

No.

Well, he's a string theorist, so whether or not you'd find him at all interesting is dependent on whether you have any interest into string theory.

641 Obdicut  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 7:43:27am

re: #639 Kragar

No, no, and no. Just the intermittent stomach pains, I'll be fine for a bit, then it feels like hell for a few minutes, then subsides. Taking off in about 10 minutes to get them checked out.

Good man. Hope it all turns out well.

642 Obdicut  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 7:44:54am

re: #639 Kragar

You know, it sounds exactly like a bowel obstruction-- something I had. It can be caused by inflammation due to a virus, which would explain by both your daughter and you have it. They can be dangerous, and it was the most painful experience of my life.

Hope not.

643 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 7:48:04am

re: #642 Obdicut

You know, it sounds exactly like a bowel obstruction-- something I had. It can be caused by inflammation due to a virus, which would explain by both your daughter and you have it. They can be dangerous, and it was the most painful experience of my life.

Hope not.

Plumbing clogs in biological entities are generally nasty.

In my case it appears to be a tendency towards kidney stones.

644 Obdicut  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 7:50:28am

re: #643 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste

Mine wound up with me having my stomach drained continuously for three days via a tube down my nose. Most unpleasant thing ever. And god I was so hungry by the end of it, I wanted to cry.

645 NJDhockeyfan  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 7:50:49am

re: #643 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste

Plumbing clogs in biological entities are generally nasty.

In my case it appears to be a tendency towards kidney stones.

As I understand that is very painful. You have by deepest sympathy.

646 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 8:00:00am

re: #640 Obdicut

So does dropping a pencil, right?

I'm not sure why you're asking. My general point is: whether or not laws of physics are reversible (your initial point), the processes that are "the level above" the pure physical processes, the contingent, historical, informational processes (this includes macroprocesses, like the actual cosmic/stellar evolution, and other things like biological evolution, human history, etc.) - are not time-reversible. So while there may not be a difference in time direction from the point of view of pure physics, or a particular particle, this doesn't mean that there isn't an objective universal arrow of time, defined by the history of the universe, which is quite independent from human perspective of it.

That our psychological arrow of time corresponds to this observably-universal "historical" arrow of time also suggests that it's not merely a "perspective" thing, but how the universe actually works.

Why such an arrow of time exists is another issue. And I'm not saying it's an absolute fact either. There's just nothing to suggest otherwise to me. If we actually observe macroprocesses going backwards in time, like an example I gave above, then such a view is wrong.

647 Obdicut  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 8:04:23am

re: #646 Black Cat, White Cat

are not time-reversible

Well, you can't make them reverse in time, if that's what you mean, no.

defined by the history of the universe, which is quite independent from human perspective of it.

But there isn't any history of anything that's observer-independent. There's nobody and nothing that's outside relativity.

That our psychological arrow of time corresponds to this observably-universal "historical" arrow of time also suggests that it's not merely a "perspective" thing, but how the universe actually works.

Actually, we often perceive things before they happen, which is cool in and of it itself. We also perceive things that don't happen. But I get what you mean, but not why you think this correspondence is in any way meaningful.

Why such an arrow of time exists is another issue. And I'm not saying it's an absolute fact either. There's just nothing to suggest otherwise to me.

Do you think time continues to operate in this same manner inside a singularity, then?

648 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 8:06:30am

re: #645 NJDhockeyfan

As I understand that is very painful. You have by deepest sympathy.

Only time in my life I was taking opiates (demoral).

The first one also scared the crap out of me. No idea why my body suddenly freaked out; vomiting, fever, chills, massive lower back pain. Ended up in a hospital in a strange town for two days. (I was in Colorado to attend my sister's wedding. I really helped out her state of mind - not.)

649 Petero1818  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 8:08:08am

re: #627 Gus

The quote:

I was at a United Jewish Appeal charity event last year, with guest speaker Daniel Pipes. As you likely know, Mr. Pipes, is certainly no friend to Obama, and while I find he has good insight into Israeli politics, I do find most of his writing crosses the line and have little time for his positions on the Palestinians and Muslims generally. During the Q & A, he was asked about the media attention directed at the issue of Obama and his relationship to Netanyahu and to Israel generally. His response was that in every objectively measurable way, Obama was really no different than the previous 2 or 3 administrations that came before his. There was no change in American policy or actions with Israel. What had changed was the public tone of the discussion with the Muslim world by Obama, and that it was clear on a personal level that Obama and Bibi were never going to be buddies. That was it.

650 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 8:08:24am

re: #647 Obdicut

Well, you can't make them reverse in time, if that's what you mean, no.

Which is why a view that "that works fine for everything" strikes me as simply wrong.

But there isn't any history of anything that's observer-independent. There's nobody and nothing that's outside relativity.

And this relates to what I wrote how?

Actually, we often perceive things before they happen, which is cool in and of it itself. We also perceive things that don't happen. But I get what you mean, but not why you think this correspondence is in any way meaningful.

Why is it not meaningful in any way?

Do you think time continues to operate in this same manner inside a singularity, then?

I'm not concerned with this question.

651 Killgore Trout  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 8:08:58am

German-Iranian friction boosts Bratwurst prices

In shock news for Germans everywhere, the sausage industry is feeling the rising cost of importing sheep intestines from Iran, leading Nürnberger Bratwurst producer Claus Steiner told The Local on Friday.

Sheep intestinal lining – a key ingredient in making the sausage – is largely imported from Iran, which has a 500-year history of trading animal by-products. But this may change, as the price of sheep gut has almost tripled in the past 18 months.

A year and a half ago 90 metres of intestinal lining, enough to encase about 1,000 delicious bratwursts, cost just €6.30. But now the same length costs a whopping €17.20 - an alarming price hike that sausage-loving Germans may feel come barbecue season.

652 Petero1818  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 8:10:03am

re: #651 Killgore Trout

German-Iranian friction boosts Bratwurst prices

I see a real opportunity for New Zealand to get in there and steal a ton of market share./

653 Obdicut  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 8:11:34am

re: #650 Black Cat, White Cat

Which is why a view that "that works fine for everything" strikes me as simply wrong.

The two things have nothing to do with each other. I'm not talking about the ability to force anything to do anything.

And this relates to what I wrote how?

Because you're talking about the history of the universe. The history from what perspective?

Why is it not meaningful in any way?

The correspondence between human psychology and 'time's arrow'.

I'm not concerned with this question

Why on earth not? If you're talking about the way time operates, isn't it rather important to pay attention to places where we know stuff begins to get funky?

654 Killgore Trout  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 8:12:00am

re: #651 Killgore Trout

German-Iranian friction boosts Bratwurst prices

Image: 40961_1_.jpg

655 Killgore Trout  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 8:13:48am

re: #652 The Artist formerly known as Satan

I see a real opportunity for New Zealand to get in there and steal a ton of market share./

I don't know what happened but over the last year lamb prices have gone through the roof. Shanks and leg of lamb used to be reasonably affordable. Way too expensive for me now.

656 NJDhockeyfan  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 8:16:21am

re: #651 Killgore Trout

German-Iranian friction boosts Bratwurst prices

I posted that story a little while ago. Very depressing news for the sausage industry.

This part was interesting:

The Nuremberg bratwurst, which dates back to the 1300s, is the subject of legends. The city's website proudly tells the story of Hans Stromer, a patrician and town magistrate in the Middle Ages, who, after being sentenced to life in prison for "not being loyal to his city," made one simple request: to be given two Nuremberg bratwurst each day. His wish was granted, and he ended up eating 27,000 of the bratwurst over 38 years in jail. It is a record which, according to the city, remains unbeaten.

657 Eventual Carrion  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 8:24:32am

re: #228 HoosierHoops

So what did everybody give up for Lent this year?
It was easy for me when I was a kid.. Everybody was giving up candy...
Really?
Does anybody give up being an a*shole for Lent? Or just chocolate?

I gave up giving things up.

658 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 8:24:52am

re: #653 Obdicut

The two things have nothing to do with each other. I'm not talking about the ability to force anything to do anything.

Sorry, I've lost the chain of thought here. What ability? I'm talking about your initial point that all descriptions are probably equally fine regardless of the time arrow used. They're not, because there seems to be a universal time arrow (at least in the observable universe), which makes this direction of time a preferred direction for descriptions.

Because you're talking about the history of the universe. The history from what perspective?

From the point of the spacetime we're in, obviously.

The correspondence between human psychology and 'time's arrow'.

Human psychology in general has nothing to do with the psychological arrow of time. That's just a stable term. You can use "perceived arrow of time" instead, if "psychological" trips you up. I don't see in what way the correspondence of the arrow of time as perceived by us to the arrow of time as exhibited by the history of the observable universe is not meaningful. Quite the opposite, it suggest that we move with some sort of the objective arrow of time that exists aside from our individual selves.

Why on earth not? If you're talking about the way time operates, isn't it rather important to pay attention to places where we know stuff begins to get funky?

Uh, no. Extreme cases are not necessarily useful. If you do think that something about singularities is useful for this discussion, please describe it in your own words, rather than asking me.

659 NJDhockeyfan  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 8:26:55am

re: #657 RayFerd

I gave up giving things up.

I tried to give up farting but I failed.

660 NJDhockeyfan  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 8:28:05am

Activists launch campaign to 'occupy' men's public toilets

BEIJING, Feb. 23 (Xinhua) -- A group of young Chinese recently launched a campaign to "occupy" men's public toilets, calling for more toilet stalls for women in Chinese cities.

On Feb. 19, seven volunteers in their 20s gathered outside a men's public toilet in Yuexiu Park, a local landmark in the city of Guangzhou in south China's Guangdong province.

They held up a brightly-colored banner declaring "more convenience for women, more gender equality" and took turns spending three minutes "occupying" the public toilet to prevent men from using it, spending two hours at the site in total.

"We gathered here not to forcibly stop men from using their toilet, but to arouse consciousness on gender equality in both women and men," said Li Maizi, a female university student and leader of the activists.

"Our final appeal is to influence state legislation in order to create a reasonable ratio for male and female public toilet space by providing more toilets for women," Li said, adding that unisex toilets could also be considered.

Most public restrooms in China feature the same number of stalls in both men and women's restrooms, despite the fact that it takes women about three times longer to use the bathroom, creating unequal distribution, Li said.

Occupy Toilets?

661 Obdicut  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 8:28:21am

re: #658 Black Cat, White Cat

Sorry, I've lost the chain of thought here. What ability? I'm talking about your initial point that all descriptions are probably equally fine regardless of the time arrow used. They're not, because there seems to be a universal time arrow (at least in the observable universe), which makes this direction of time a preferred direction for descriptions.

Oh, for descriptions? Sure.

From the point of the spacetime we're in, obviously.

You and I are in different points of spacetime. Also, we're not in points.

Uh, no. Extreme cases are not necessarily useful. If you do think that something about singularities is useful for this discussion, please describe it in your own words, rather than asking me.

It doesn't matter if they're useful or not, actually. If you're attempting to talk about the way the time flows in the universe, you're not allowed to say "Oh, but not counting that bit of the universe, that bit's just all jacked up".

And also, extreme cases are usually the most useful things in figuring out physics. Our investigation of the way that singularities act (or may act, given that a lot of our observations about them are mathematical models) have formed a lot of the most important work in quantum theory.

662 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 8:32:35am

re: #661 Obdicut

You and I are in different points of spacetime. Also, we're not in points.

Duh.

It doesn't matter if they're useful or not, actually. If you're attempting to talk about the way the time flows in the universe, you're not allowed to say "Oh, but not counting that bit of the universe, that bit's just all jacked up".

Actually, as long as these bits do not contradict my case, I'm allowed to ignore them. If they do contradict it, please point out how.

663 ReamWorks SKG  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 8:37:27am

The official GOP Debate Drinking Game, from Popehat

[Link: www.popehat.com...]

665 ReamWorks SKG  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 8:39:16am

re: #660 NJDhockeyfan

Activists launch campaign to 'occupy' men's public toilets

Occupy Toilets?

I'm always extremely annoyed by Women who use the Mens room when there's too long a line at the Women's room. If I were to try to use the Womens room, I'd be arrested.

It's not my problem they haven't figured out how to use a urinal.

666 NJDhockeyfan  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 8:42:31am

re: #665 reuven

I'm always extremely annoyed by Women who use the Mens room when there's too long a line at the Women's room. If I were to try to use the Womens room, I'd be arrested.

It's not my problem they haven't figured out how to use a urinal.

Yes that have!

667 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 8:43:13am

Hail Stan's neighbor!

668 Obdicut  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 8:44:05am

re: #662 Black Cat, White Cat

Actually, as long as these bits do not contradict my case, I'm allowed to ignore them. If they do contradict it, please point out how.

Okay. We have no idea how time operates inside a singularity. We have a few theories, but not a lot. We can demonstrate (at least mathematically) that things inside a Schwartzfield radius of a singularity would being to perceive time and space in a very different fashion; an observer inside the radius, outside, and in the border, cannot agree on what the history of the universe is. One way of putting this is that inside the Schwarzschild bubble, Time becomes a spatial direction.

So, the history of the universe cannot be agreed upon, to someone outside a singularity a person falling into it will never actually fall into it, and time inside a singularity becomes a spatial direction.

These all seem rather problematic with a 'time's arrow goes forward' theory.

669 lawhawk  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 8:55:10am

re: #664 NJDhockeyfan

That's all well and good, but considering the Empire's management style is something to be avoided. Key management decisions by the Emperor and Darth Vader doomed the Empire's efforts to eliminate the Jedi and assume complete control over the Galaxy.

670 NJDhockeyfan  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 8:58:36am

re: #669 lawhawk

That's all well and good, but considering the Empire's management style is something to be avoided. Key management decisions by the Emperor and Darth Vader doomed the Empire's efforts to eliminate the Jedi and assume complete control over the Galaxy.

the Galactic Empire strikes me as a quintessential example of how not to effectively run an organization

Heh.

671 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 9:01:45am

re: #668 Obdicut

These all seem rather problematic with a 'time's arrow goes forward' theory.

Not at all. It's a generalized description with possible exceptions.

But it's not really such an exception either, because what happens in the Schwarzschild radius stays in the Schwarzschild radius, so it's not a part of the observable universe, about which I write ;)

Aside from that, I don't see how these observers do not agree on the history of the universe. They just observe different amounts of it.

For someone inside the radius:
[Link: casa.colorado.edu...]

You do NOT see all the future history of the world played out. Once inside the horizon, you are doomed to hit the singularity in a finite time, and you witness only a finite (in practice rather short) time pass in the outside Universe.

For someone just outside the radius:

In order to watch the history of the Universe unfold, you would have to remain outside the horizon, the Schwarzschild surface. One way to watch all the history of the Universe would be to stay just above the horizon, firing your rockets like crazy just to stay put. The Universe would then appear not only speeded up, but also highly blueshifted (probably roasting you in gamma rays), and concentrated in a tiny piece of the sky just above you.

But the arrow of time is not "bent", or at least that's not what I've read.

672 Daniel Ballard  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 9:09:41am

re: #669 lawhawk

They should have followed the Wall street model. Layoff the Jedi and outsource the task. :-)

673 Obdicut  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 9:14:32am

re: #671 Black Cat, White Cat

Not at all. It's a generalized description with possible exceptions.

It's possible the exceptions are larger than the generalization, though. Or will be.

because what happens in the Schwarzschild radius stays in the Schwarzschild radius, so it's not a part of the observable universe, about which I write ;)

That's ignoring the parts about people on the border of the radius, and, even so, it's discounting observers inside the radius and comparing their reports.

Aside from that, I don't see how these observers do not agree on the history of the universe. They just observe different amounts of it.

Yes, they say that different amounts of it have happened at different 'times'.

And if the black hole has rotational energy, then, due to time being a spatial component, they may very well see future events.

674 NJDhockeyfan  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 9:22:11am

Japan's Main Insurer to Cut Coverage for Ships in Iran

Japan’s main shipping insurer has just reported that they will only be able to provide a fraction of insurance coverage to tankers that transport Iranian oil under the new European Union (EU) sanctions. Again, effective in July, European insurers will be banned from providing coverage to any ships carrying Iranian crude and oil products anywhere in the world based on the new sanctions on Tehran.

Japan’s P&I Club, a shipping insurance company, does not directly fall under the sanctions rule, but does depend heavily on Europe’s reinsurance market to hedge its risk. Officials from the club have stated that Japan Club rules excludes any recovery or indemnity where the liabilities, costs or expenses are not recoverable from the Club's reinsurers due to sanctions.

Down from the current $1 billion coverage, the insurer will now only be able to provide coverage valued at a maximum $8 million per tanker. Industry experts claim that if the Japan Club covers more than that, it’s possible to go bankrupt with only one accident.

675 NJDhockeyfan  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 9:38:32am

Anonymous hits Ohio FBI partner website

(AP) — Hackers allied to the loose-knit Anonymous movement on Friday claimed responsibility for vandalizing an Ohio FBI partner website, replacing its homepage with the video for rap hit "Gangsta's Paradise."

The hackers said on Twitter that they were responsible for defacing the website of the Dayton, Ohio-based chapter of Infragard, a public-private partnership for critical infrastructure protection sponsored by the FBI.

The Ohio site was replaced with the video for Coolio's 1995 rap hit and a profane message attacking Infragard as a "sinister alliance" between corporations and law enforcement.

Anonymous has promised weekly hacks as the amorphous group continues its campaign against law enforcement worldwide.

The FBI declined comment.

676 NJDhockeyfan  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 9:39:52am

Anonymous hits Ohio FBI partner website

(AP) — Hackers allied to the loose-knit Anonymous movement on Friday claimed responsibility for vandalizing an Ohio FBI partner website, replacing its homepage with the video for rap hit "Gangsta's Paradise."

The hackers said on Twitter that they were responsible for defacing the website of the Dayton, Ohio-based chapter of Infragard, a public-private partnership for critical infrastructure protection sponsored by the FBI.

The Ohio site was replaced with the video for Coolio's 1995 rap hit and a profane message attacking Infragard as a "sinister alliance" between corporations and law enforcement.

Anonymous has promised weekly hacks as the amorphous group continues its campaign against law enforcement worldwide.

The FBI declined comment.

677 Obdicut  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 9:41:40am

re: #675 NJDhockeyfan

Dear god man, how many times did they hit it?!

678 lawhawk  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 9:42:32am

re: #672 Daniel Ballard

Oy, you should only know what kind of issues we had with the construction. Union rules. Right to work worlds demanding a piece of the action. Geonosians demanding that everything conform to Geonosian physiology. And then there's the public/private partnership funding and liens associated with the construction. We weren't even paid off on the first Death Star when we commissioned the second one.

[Link: www.starwars.com...]

679 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 9:45:42am

re: #673 Obdicut

It's possible the exceptions are larger than the generalization, though. Or will be.

I won't repeat myself about bare possibilities.

That's ignoring the parts about people on the border of the radius, and, even so, it's discounting observers inside the radius and comparing their reports.

Show that the reports differ except for the amount of history observed.

Yes, they say that different amounts of it have happened at different 'times'.

Yes. No problem.

And if the black hole has rotational energy, then, due to time being a spatial component, they may very well see future events.

Sure. Because they basically will live through this future. This, again, shows that they will merely observe different amounts of history. That's just standard general relativity. It indeed refutes nothing about the arrow of time, which stays the same.

680 Obdicut  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 9:47:49am

re: #679 Black Cat, White Cat

I won't repeat myself about possibilities.

Then that seems a remarkably incurious attitude to take towards physics, and very limited in applicability.

Sure. Because they basically will live through this future.

No, really, they won't. It's much, much weirder than that.

General relativity does, in fact, break down when encountering singularities, and completely gets fucked with when encountering a rotating black hole.

It doesn't 'break down' as in it gets disproved, but the standard rules, including about time, are not applicable.

681 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 9:57:59am

re: #680 Obdicut

Then that seems a remarkably incurious attitude to take towards physics, and very limited in applicability.

Not at all. You haven't shown that these possibilities have any major effect on my reasoning, rather than being possible minor exceptions (actually, you haven't shown that they're exceptions at all).

No, really, they won't.

If they will see it, they will live through it in a certain sense - while observing it. Not as participants, of course. That would be impossible.

It's much, much weirder than that.

General relativity does, in fact, break down when encountering singularities,

We're not talking about someone actually reaching a singularity, though. We're talking about someone traveling towards it. Until the singularity itself GR doesn't break down. We never actually discuss the "insides" of singularity, because it's not possible to discuss. And nothing about pre-singularity state contradicts what I wrote.

It doesn't 'break down' as in it gets disproved, but the standard rules, including about time, are not applicable.

The main point, though, is that it disproves nothing about the arrow of time in observable universe.

682 Obdicut  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 10:20:04am

re: #681 Black Cat, White Cat

Not at all. You haven't shown that these possibilities have any major effect on my reasoning, rather than being possible minor exceptions (actually, you haven't shown that they're exceptions at all).

They're not minor. I don't know why you think they are.

If they will see it, they will live through it in a certain sense - while observing it. Not as participants, of course. That would be impossible.

Not sure what you mean by participants. It will affect them.

We never actually discuss the "insides" of singularity, because it's not possible to discuss. And nothing about pre-singularity state contradicts what I wrote.

There is lots of discussion about the the insides of a singularity.

The main point, though, is that it disproves nothing about the arrow of time in observable universe.

And I still have no idea what you mean by 'observable'.

683 Obdicut  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 10:20:31am

We can't observe electrons, for example. Can we not talk about them?

684 leftynyc  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 10:28:54am

re: #203 Learned Mother of Zion

Here I am in New York for my baby girl's wedding.

The flight was horrible!
The car rental agency was horribiler!
The GPS sent us on NYC-cabbie-take-the-tourists-on-a-scenic-route through picturesque Williamsburg!

On top of all that, Zedushka has a compromised immune system and he's just not up to man-kissing and man-hugging a bunch of random wedding guests.

I will never, never fly spirit.com (aka fuckyouairlines.com) and never again use dollar car rental (aka fuckyoucarrental.com)

Sorry our city has given you so much trouble on this trip. But a hearty mazel tov on your daughter's nuptials.

685 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 10:43:00am

re: #682 Obdicut

They're not minor. I don't know why you think they are.

You haven't shown that they're major. Or that they are exceptions.

Not sure what you mean by participants.

Really? I think it's quite obvious. They cannot affect any events from inside the event horizon. Thus they cannot be participants.

It will affect them.

Sure, but as pure observers. You're not a participant of a movie you're watching.

So, to repeat, none of these observers' reports would contradict each other. They would describe different things, but not contradictory things. In theory, of course. As such, I don't see how this is in any way relevant to the issue at hand. I also don't know what you mean by "cannot agree on what the history of the universe is" and "the history of the universe cannot be agreed upon". They would observe different parts of the same history, in different modes. How this contradicts anything I wrote about the arrow of time is beyond me. You've asserted the incompatibility, but you haven't actually shown any.

There is lots of discussion about the the insides of a singularity.

All of it purely speculative and hypothetical, as quantum gravity theory is not here yet, and without it you won't get any solid results, given how QM and GR break down in the singularity.

And I still have no idea what you mean by 'observable'.

Why? You don't know what an observable universe (which is a standard term) is? Or you think I'm using the term with a meaning different from the standard one? I'm not.

686 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 10:46:20am

re: #683 Obdicut

We can't observe electrons, for example. Can we not talk about them?

I have a nagging suspicion you're confusing things here. We can't reliably talk about the inside of the singularity because we lack proper theoretical concepts to do so. We can more or less reliably talk about the inside of the Schwarzschild surface, because GR still works inside it up to the singularity.

687 Obdicut  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 10:46:42am
Why? You don't know what an observable universe (which is a standard term) is? Or you think I'm using the term with a meaning different from the standard one? I'm not.

Well, the observable universe is not the entire universe, so when you talked about the history of the universe, that made me think you were using it in a different sense. So, whenever you say 'universe' do you just mean 'observable universe'?

688 Obdicut  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 10:48:34am

re: #686 Black Cat, White Cat

I have a nagging suspicion you're confusing things here. We can't reliably talk about the inside of the singularity because we lack proper theoretical concepts to do so. We can more or less reliably talk about the inside of the Schwarzschild surface, because GR still works inside it up to the singularity.

I didn't say we could reliably talk about it, though. We can't reliably talk about how gravity operates, either, or what happens at the sub-quark level, etc.

689 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 10:53:21am

re: #687 Obdicut

Well, the observable universe is not the entire universe, so when you talked about the history of the universe, that made me think you were using it in a different sense. So, whenever you say 'universe' do you just mean 'observable universe'?

It doesn't make sense, for the purposes of the present discussion, to speculate about the parts of the universe we can never observe. Since I'm making my conclusions only on what can, in principle, be observed, I limit myself to the observable universe here.

690 Obdicut  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 10:54:56am

re: #689 Black Cat, White Cat

It doesn't make sense, for the purposes of the present discussion, to speculate about the parts of the universe we can never observe.

Of course it does, we're talking about physics.

Since I'm making my conclusions only on what can, in principle, be observed, I limit myself to the observable universe here.

Then no wonder we're talking past each other.

691 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 10:55:16am

re: #688 Obdicut

I didn't say we could reliably talk about it, though. We can't reliably talk about how gravity operates, either, or what happens at the sub-quark level, etc.

Good, so let's not talk about these.

692 Obdicut  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 10:55:40am

re: #691 Black Cat, White Cat

Good, so let's not talk about these.

Well, I guess physics is over, then.

693 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 10:55:54am

re: #690 Obdicut

Of course it does, we're talking about physics.

Non sequitur.

694 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 10:56:56am

re: #692 Obdicut

Well, I guess physics is over, then.

Physics is over once you enter the singularity.

695 Eventual Carrion  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 12:51:04pm

re: #660 NJDhockeyfan

Activists launch campaign to 'occupy' men's public toilets

Occupy Toilets?

You backing them up?


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