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Fox News Commenters React to Afghan Killings: ‘A Dead Muslim Is a Good Muslim’

Vile comments appear again on every right wing site
Wingnuts • Views: 82,477

It’s no longer surprising, but the right wing blogs are full of comments today praising the soldier who allegedly committed mass murder in Kandahar, killing men, women, and children asleep in their beds.

Gateway Pundit:

It’s a start. Now for the rest of the bastards.

[…]

Congratulations to the soldier…give him a heros welcome….buck fobama

[…]

WAAAAAY TO GO!!!!!

But why did he stop? Run out of ammo?

Michelle Malkin’s new site, Twitchy.com:

Good. More, please.

[…]

I don’t think he was unbalanced. I think he was getting some payback. It’s nice to see someone on our side who actually wants to hurt the enemy.

[…]

Forget apologies; Pardon that soldier…

I’ve looked at about a dozen right wing sites this morning to see how they’d react to the news from Afghanistan, and the comments at every single one of them were full of people celebrating the killings, praising the soldier who allegedly committed them, and denying there was any crime, while at the same time frantically trying to blame the crime on President Obama.

But the worst site by far is the right wing’s premier news channel, Fox News:

This is nothing! Wait until you see what happens to the n!qqqers here in the US of A when the new civil war starts!

[…]

THATS 15 LESS AFGAN POLICE WHO HAVE BEEN MUR D ER ING OUR TROOPS AND CIVILIANS

[…]

Obama just announced that he is personally going to provide fe la tio to every Afghani male to compensate for their loss.

[…]

The P O S P apoligizes to moooooooooooooslimes and doesnt have any respect for American solders ! Sent the ragehead obummerdeen and his entire family to Kenya where their dirty s c u m b a g b o d i e s belong !

[…]

This guy only did what the NewBIackPanthers promise to do to white babies.

[…]

What? Our wim mpy prez going, sorry for our troops for getting in the way of your rag head sol diers bul lets. I see the stre ss that our tro ops are under in that f-kin country. Let’s pull out NOW. The only good rag head is a d—d ragh ead

[…]

I don’t see a problem here.

[…]

Obummer what is tragic and shocking that you are a lying P O S P that supports t e r r o r i s m ! Burn in L L E H
moooooooooooooooooooslime

[…]

It’s perfectly okay for the Afghanistan military to mur der our troops, Obama dosen’t even flinch, however, condolences go out when it’s the other way around. I’ll be very glad when the loser-in-chief is on his way out. I hate muslums, big time, in a very big way! Right behind the muslums are the libtards, they’re just as bad.

[…]

What comes around goes around That soldier deserves a medal!!!!!

[…]

Well, that should be enough to start a MASS RIOT. And then that will spiral all thru the middle-east causing more Americans to be killed. We got two choices here…. Keep putting up with this mooslime S H I T..or… Drop a freaking nuke on that islamic radical country and end this cat and mouse game forever. We know its going to happen sooner or later, lets get this World War III started so our economy will come back. Our Industries will come back. Our Jobs will come back. And most important, Our American Patriotism will once again lead…

[…]

I’m tired of apologists, tired of a woosie President and his woosie administration that constantly fall over themselves apologizing. Tell Karzai to pound sand and if one more American is k illed by his crazies, Karzai himself will be assuming room temperature.

[…]

This soldier made a great point. You kiI I our family, we will kil l yours.

[…]

LOL….DUMB_NIGGERS like you are humorous actually. Isn’t there some food stamp line you should be standing in? Oh yes, it’s Sunday and you have to shine your spinners.

[…]

Blahhh, Blahhh, Blahhh…… you’re still just a DUMB_NIGGER. LOL.

[…]

Every M U S L I M that reads the Quran is an enemy combatant…at home or abroad.

[…]

musIim civilians????? Yea Right…Blow Me

[…]

The Muzzie men are P issed they had plans to strap b ombs on the women and childern…just sayin

[…]

Just another day at the office, even up the score

[…]

Must have been one of those G a y soldiers they are letting in now. Probably emotionally distraught that his g a y lover was ki11ed by Taliban rebels in retaliation for Koran burning that the prisoners defaced to begin with. So what? No big deal. Obamao caused this by letting them in the ranks. Now libturds will blame it on our forces and personally attack us for saying so.

[…]

Our mus lum president is on their side

[…]

There is no such thing as a musIim civilian

[…]

A dead Mus lim is a good Mus lim. Give the soldier a medal.

Again, note that these freaks deliberately insert spaces and misspell their racial slurs in order to sneak them past the automatic word filters. Many of the worst comments quoted above had numerous “likes” from other Fox News readers. And this is a tiny selection from more than 2,200 comments; there are many, many more like this.

Related:
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Fox News Commenters Respond to Common Story With Deluge of Racism and Hate
Update: Four Hours Later, Fox News Commenters Still Spewing Racism
Fox News Commenters Cheer for Serbian War Criminal
Fox Nation on ‘Fast and Furious’: A Deluge of Death Threats and Racism
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Jump to bottom

331 comments

1 SteelGHAZI  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 12:34:36pm

Oh my fucking god. What the fuck is wrong with these people?!

2 Sol Berdinowitz  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 12:36:09pm

It is their proximity to mainstream opinion that worries me.

3 jaunte  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 12:36:39pm

At Fox news, commenter "chiefpride" vainly calls for a reasoned response:

The comments here are why we lose out to the left all the time in what is deemed to be the mainstream media. To say that this President is wrong for an apology is moronic. Stop letting your hate for Obama drive you to the point of lunacy. For ANY american solder to do this goes against everything we stand for in this country and if you allow your hatred for "mooo-lims" as you call them, or anyone that has an opposing view shape your mind then we have lost half the battle. We all talk about loving this country, having god in our lives, and being the party of the people correct? Well I must say that if the views expressed here are the TRUE feelings of the average american then I want not part of YOUR america. Most of you sound worse than what you would say ANY liberal can ever dream of. Your ignorance only sets our cause back and with this prevailing mentality Obama and the dems will wipe the floor with the conservative party. And what's worse is that in the true meaning of a democratic debate you should be able to express your views freely and to the public. I truly doubt that many of you would go on camera OR use the same words in public because you would be discounted by anyone with common sense. The ignorance in this is what has killed any chance the Tea Party had will divide conservatives to the point that we have no hope of truly being heard.

4 Shvaughn  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 12:36:45pm

I wonder if Gingrich will condemn any apology by the President.

5 Obdicut  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 12:37:52pm

What brave souls.

The moderation at Fox is almost of the worst possible variety; they do remove some of the comments, but that only makes it appear as though those that remain aren't seen as problematic by Fox.

6 Targetpractice  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 12:38:01pm

re: #3 jaunte

At Fox news, commenter "chiefpride" vainly calls for a reasoned response:

Oh, he won't be around for long.

7 Kronocide  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 12:39:24pm
nancy

Our president is certainly the worst we have ever had He will now get down on his knees and ... Why doesnt he take a lesson from Karzide? Be loud! be definate !stand up for something especiallyfor ourcitizens in the fighting units God Bless that couragous man He should come home a hero. BUT he will probably get a sentance for the rest of his life in jail.

bobfrommosinee

What is the Difference, Muslims go of on Jihad when they get mad over insults to Islam, The Trooper went of Crusade over the Insults and Murders committed against the U.S.

That Kid has more guts than the rest of the U.S. Liberal panty wastes running our military and government bowing and scraping to Muslims over every temper tantrum over every perceived insult they claim as justification for their murderous behavior.

Shame.

8 jaunte  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 12:39:37pm

I doubt if any of the bloodthirsty assholes who are leaving these comments actually have anyone in harm's way.

9 HappyWarrior  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 12:40:42pm

Ghouls.

10 Sol Berdinowitz  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 12:42:24pm

re: #3 jaunte

Chefpride is saying what the GOP leadership should have been saying years ago...

11 Lidane  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 12:42:34pm

re: #8 jaunte

I doubt if any of the bloodthisty assholes who are leaving these comments actually have anyone in harm's way.

Of course they don't. Just like how the loudest blowhards for war in Iran (i.e., Gingrich, etc.) were too chickenshit to serve in the military. It's easy to be a bloodthirsty soldier in the 101st Chairborne if it's not your ass on the line.

12 Targetpractice  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 12:44:01pm

re: #11 Lidane

Of course they don't. Just like how the loudest blowhards for war in Iran (i.e., Gingrich, etc.) were too chickenshit to serve in the military. It's easy to be a bloodthirsty soldier in the 101st Chairborne if it's not your ass on the line.

Closest they've been to combat is reading Tom Clancy novels and playing Counterstrike.

13 Sol Berdinowitz  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 12:44:35pm

re: #4 Shvaughn

I wonder if Gingrich will condemn any apology by the President.

Sounds like he is going Paulian on Afghanistan, at least for the duration of the campaign:

Gingrich: Afghan War 'May Not Be Doable Mission'

14 Renaissance_Man  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 12:46:23pm

Wow! My fingers hurt like the dickens after typing up all those comments to make Conservatives look bad. Very impressed with those of you who got the orders to do it on FOXnews though, way to go above and beyond!

15 Targetpractice  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 12:46:48pm

re: #13 Ministry of Fairness and Balance

Sounds like he is going Paulian on Afghanistan, at least for the duration of the campaign:

Gingrich: Afghan War 'May Not Be Doable Mission'

Gingrich is like most warhawks these days, all gung-ho for the war, but not so much for the clean-up. Especially when a Democrat's the one left with the job.

16 HappyWarrior  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 12:47:39pm

re: #15 Targetpractice

Gingrich is like most warhawks these days, all gung-ho for the war, but not so much for the clean-up. Especially when a Democrat's the one left with the job.

What you mean we actually have responsibility after we invade a country. Say it isn't so, Newt! And Newt would be all for the war if he or any Republican were in office.

17 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 12:47:46pm

Note how they're all wrapped in flag, and I think I even see a small cross.

18 Kragar  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 12:48:12pm

They support our war criminal troops.

Troops who actually do their duty are traitors for following Obama.
/

19 HappyWarrior  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 12:49:52pm

Do these idiots know that our soldiers deliberately targeting civilians will mean our soldiers regardless of not whether they were involved in this act or not will be targeted? That aside from the obvious lack of humanity is the disturbing thing about being happy about war crimes.

20 Charles Johnson  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 12:50:52pm

A lot of these people went to church this morning.

21 Randall Gross  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 12:50:57pm

OT:
is the Denver GOP Assembly's descent into pure Pauldemonium a harbinger of things to come at the nat'l convention?

[Link: blogs.denverpost.com...]

22 erik_t  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 12:51:07pm

You hear 'Death to $GROUPORNATION!'

Your immediate response to the question 'what group do you think said that?' is now....?

23 Kragar  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 12:53:15pm

re: #20 Charles Johnson

A lot of these people went to church this morning.

When did the Blood God replace Jesus? I missed a memo.

24 celticdragon  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 12:54:59pm

re: #20 Charles Johnson

A lot of these people went to church this morning.

This comes to mind:

"O Lord our Father, our young patriots, idols of our hearts, go forth to battle -- be Thou near them! With them -- in spirit -- we also go forth from the sweet peace of our beloved firesides to smite the foe. O Lord our God, help us to tear their soldiers to bloody shreds with our shells; help us to cover their smiling fields with the pale forms of their patriot dead; help us to drown the thunder of the guns with the shrieks of their wounded, writhing in pain; help us to lay waste their humble homes with a hurricane of fire; help us to wring the hearts of their unoffending widows with unavailing grief; help us to turn them out roofless with little children to wander unfriended the wastes of their desolated land in rags and hunger and thirst, sports of the sun flames of summer and the icy winds of winter, broken in spirit, worn with travail, imploring Thee for the refuge of the grave and denied it -- for our sakes who adore Thee, Lord, blast their hopes, blight their lives, protract their bitter pilgrimage, make heavy their steps, water their way with their tears, stain the white snow with the blood of their wounded feet! We ask it, in the spirit of love, of Him Who is the Source of Love, and Who is the ever-faithful refuge and friend of all that are sore beset and seek His aid with humble and contrite hearts. Amen.

25 Targetpractice  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 12:55:02pm

re: #19 HappyWarrior

Do these idiots know that our soldiers deliberately targeting civilians will mean our soldiers regardless of not whether they were involved in this act or not will be targeted? That aside from the obvious lack of humanity is the disturbing thing about being happy about war crimes.

They don't really give a shit. I'm reminded of the logic of the door gunner in Full Metal Jacket: "Anyone who runs, is a VC. Anyone who stands still, is a well-disciplined VC." In a weird, twisted way, their logic mirrors the very terrorists they claim to be fighting, in that any civilian they run across is a potential soldier, and thus a legitimate target.

26 celticdragon  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 12:55:25pm

re: #23 Kragar

When did the Blood God replace Jesus? I missed a memo.

Khorne is tricky that way.

27 HappyWarrior  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 12:55:42pm

You know if you're gonna use a racial slur, at least have the goddamn courage to spell it out instead of being a passive aggressive wimp. None of this "niqqer" or "Mus lim" crap.

28 jaunte  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 12:56:16pm

re: #27 HappyWarrior

They spell that way to get around the automated filters.

29 Kragar  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 12:56:26pm

re: #26 celticdragon

Khorne is tricky that way.

I guess Tzeentch was busy with the Scientologists.

30 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 12:56:35pm

Boy, what a dilemma for the GOP candidates. The impulse is to somehow directly blame the murders on Obama, but since a lot of the base sees the attack as a good thing, they can't condemn it too harshly.

31 Targetpractice  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 12:56:50pm

re: #27 HappyWarrior

You know if you're gonna use a racial slur, at least have the goddamn courage to spell it out instead of being a passive aggressive wimp. None of this "niqqer" or "Mus lim" crap.

They have to do that to get past the word filters that the Fox News mods think prevent such comments.

32 HappyWarrior  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 12:59:06pm

re: #31 Targetpractice

They have to do that to get past the word filters that the Fox News mods think prevent such comments.

Ah guess you're right.

33 Charleston Chew  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 12:59:19pm

These people represent the reason the US has had trouble "winning hearts and minds" in asymmetrical warfare for the past 50 years.

They can't understand why that's such a critical part of global strategy because they have neither.

34 jaunte  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 12:59:22pm

re: #23 Kragar

When did the Blood God replace Jesus? I missed a memo.

"Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass."
[Link: www.blueletterbible.org...]

35 HappyWarrior  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 1:00:35pm

I still remember the idiots I went to school with saying we should nuke Iraq in the lead up to the Iraq War. Of course many of these same people probably later embraced Ron Paul style isolationism. There are a lot of idiots in this world who think war is but a game.

36 Targetpractice  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 1:01:33pm

re: #35 HappyWarrior

I still remember the idiots I went to school with saying we should nuke Iraq in the lead up to the Iraq War. Of course many of these same people probably later embraced Ron Paul style isolationism. There are a lot of idiots in this world who think war is but a game.

It's a large part of the reason why I think the new reliance on drone warfare a major step in the wrong direction. Last thing we need to be doing is distancing ourselves even more from the realities of war.

37 Sol Berdinowitz  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 1:02:15pm

re: #23 Kragar

When did the Blood God replace Jesus? I missed a memo.

It waas the other way around, Jesus came and replaced the Blood God. SOme people missed that memo, I guess

38 Charleston Chew  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 1:05:07pm

re: #15 Targetpractice

Gingrich is like most warhawks these days, all gung-ho for the war, but not so much for the clean-up. Especially when a Democrat's the one left with the job.

Afghanistan is unwinnable but lets start another war with Iran? They're like spoiled brats who break the new toys you just bought them and then demand more.

No new wars for you until you finish the ones we already bought you!

39 HappyWarrior  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 1:09:59pm

But mommy I want a new country to hate.

40 Charleston Chew  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 1:12:02pm

re: #23 Kragar

When did the Blood God replace Jesus? I missed a memo.

This people seem to practice a particularly Gothic type of Chirstianity.

From Wikipedia:

During the Migration Period, Germanic religion was subject to syncretic influence from Christianity and Mediterranean culture.

Jordanes' Getica is a 6th century account of the Goths, written a century and a half after Christianity largely replaced the older religions among the Goths. According to the Getica, the chief god of the Goths was Mars, who they believed was born among them:

Now Mars has always been worshipped by the Goths with cruel rites, and captives were slain as his victims. They thought that he who is the lord of war ought to be appeased by the shedding of human blood. To him they devoted the first share of the spoil, and in his honor arms stripped from the foe were suspended from trees. And they had more than all other races a deep spirit of religion, since the worship of this god seemed to be really bestowed upon their ancestor. — Getica

41 nines09  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 1:12:20pm

I doubt very few of the twisted up posters ever were in a situation where they could be messed up good. Here or elsewhere, let alone a war zone. Fox News comments are like a watering hole for the loud mouth lout who talks real big, hates his life and job, and goes home and hits the wife kicks the dog and screams at the kids. They would shit their pants in a real bad part of town let alone have to carry a weapon and get shot at daily.

42 jaunte  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 1:12:56pm

Obama Calls Karzai To Offer Condolences, Pledge Accountability For Killings

President Obama extended his condolences to the people of Afghanistan, and made clear his Administration's commitment to establish the facts as quickly as possible and to hold fully accountable anyone responsible. The President reaffirmed our deep respect for the Afghan people and the bonds between our two countries.

43 Targetpractice  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 1:13:04pm

re: #38 Charleston Chew

Afghanistan is unwinnable but lets start another war with Iran? They're like spoiled brats who break the new toys you just bought them and then demand more.

No new wars for you until you finish the ones we already bought you!

It's because they're the instant gratification sort, who love pounding their chests when the tanks are rolling at top speed to the capital or when statues are getting torn down. But when the occupation drags on, year after year, they begin to lose their fervor for it. It's hard to look like the good guys when civies are getting shot and blown up in an effort to take out one or two "bad guys."

44 HappyWarrior  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 1:13:36pm

re: #42 jaunte

Obama Calls Karzai To Offer Condolences, Pledge Accountability For Killings

Cue outrage from the wingnuts and this being the proof that he's a Muslim and commie.

45 Kragar  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 1:14:16pm

re: #42 jaunte

Obama Calls Karzai To Offer Condolences, Pledge Accountability For Killings

Waiting for the GOP candidates to call him out for apologizing.

46 Lidane  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 1:14:33pm

re: #44 HappyWarrior

Cue outrage from the wingnuts and this being the proof that he's a Muslim and commie.

Also cue the cries of "Apology Tour!" all over again. It's inevitable.

47 Four More Tears  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 1:15:14pm

If the internet had existed during the Crusades, this is what it would have looked like.

48 Lidane  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 1:17:11pm

re: #47 Meh.

If the internet had existed during the Crusades, this is what it would have looked like.

The church would never have allowed the internet to exist during the Crusades. Mass literacy and education were anathema to them.

49 Four More Tears  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 1:17:16pm

I don't even want to think about how much more danger our troops are in now.

50 Charleston Chew  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 1:17:33pm

re: #35 HappyWarrior

I still remember the idiots I went to school with saying we should nuke Iraq in the lead up to the Iraq War. Of course many of these same people probably later embraced Ron Paul style isolationism. There are a lot of idiots in this world who think war is but a game.

Not only do they think it's a game, but they also play that game thinking exactly 0 moves ahead.

51 Four More Tears  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 1:18:10pm

re: #48 Lidane

The church would never have allowed the internet to exist during the Crusades. Mass literacy and education were anathema to them.

...way to gut my highly insightful joke.

:-P

52 Kragar  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 1:18:25pm

re: #47 Meh.

If the internet had existed during the Crusades, this is what it would have looked like.

WND would be exposing the "Truth" behind King Richard's truce with Saladin.

53 Targetpractice  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 1:18:30pm

re: #50 Charleston Chew

Not only do they think it's a game, but they also play that game thinking exactly 0 moves ahead.

Strange game. The only winning move is not to play.

54 jaunte  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 1:19:29pm

Geller isn't even reporting this story. Apparently we're "under siege" from traitors within because LA Mayor Villaraigosa talked to some muslims.

55 Kragar  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 1:19:57pm

re: #50 Charleston Chew

Not only do they think it's a game, but they also play that game thinking exactly 0 moves ahead.

If international politics is chess, they're playing tic tac toe.

56 Charleston Chew  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 1:20:14pm

re: #48 Lidane

The church would never have allowed the internet to exist during the Crusades. Mass literacy and education were anathema to them.

Sadly, you can have plenty of internet without either of those things.

57 Kragar  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 1:20:39pm

re: #54 jaunte

Geller isn't even reporting this story. Apparently we're "under siege" from traitors within because LA Mayor Villaraigosa talked to some muslims.

She's still upset that people called her bad names for backing up the Norway killer.

58 Lidane  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 1:21:03pm

re: #49 Meh.

I don't even want to think about how much more danger our troops are in now.

Our troops aren't in danger! Whoever did this was a damn hero giving it to the enemy!

Why do you hate America?

///

59 Targetpractice  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 1:22:17pm

re: #49 Meh.

I don't even want to think about how much more danger our troops are in now.

I don't think we're ever going to be out of danger at this rate. Pissing on corpses, burning Qurans, shooting civilians. It seems like we've gone from one incident to the next. And the Right cheering those responsible on, every step of the way, thinking that the apologies are what's putting us in danger.

60 HappyWarrior  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 1:22:36pm

re: #52 Kragar

WND would be exposing the "Truth" behind King Richard's truce with Saladin.

Show us the Lionheart's real baptism records!

61 Charleston Chew  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 1:22:49pm

re: #55 Kragar

If international politics is chess, they're playing tic tac toe.

Hell, even tic tac toe can involve strategy. These people are at slot machine level. Put your money in and stare at the moving pictures.

62 William Barnett-Lewis  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 1:23:15pm

re: #20 Charles Johnson

A lot of these people went to church this morning.

Quite a few people who aren't like them did too. Though they do remind me, theologically, why we started the day with the penitential order and the confession of sin.

63 Lidane  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 1:23:40pm

re: #55 Kragar

If international politics is chess, they're playing tic tac toe.

They're not even that creative. These morons are playing war.

64 Kronocide  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 1:28:15pm

re: #20 Charles Johnson

A lot of these people went to church this morning.

They're doing it wrong.

65 Four More Tears  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 1:29:42pm

Some damn weird weather we're having here in NY. Thursday it hit 70. Fri and Sat were in the 30s and 40s. Today it's back up to 60.

66 JamesWI  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 1:29:57pm

re: #48 Lidane

The church would never have allowed the internet to exist during the Crusades. Mass literacy and education were anathema to them.

I think this is about the only time anyone will call these cavemen "literate" and "educated."

67 Four More Tears  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 1:30:43pm

re: #63 Lidane

They're not even that creative. These morons are playing war.

No. They're playing fizbin. Making up their own rules. And still losing...

68 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 1:31:34pm

re: #67 Meh.

No. They're playing fizbin. Making up their own rules. And still losing...

Do you know the odds of getting a Royal Fizbin?!

69 Four More Tears  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 1:32:48pm

re: #68 Pope Ron Polyp XXXVII

Do you know the odds of getting a Royal Fizbin?!

Literally incalculable.

70 b_Snark  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 1:33:14pm

re: #65 Meh.

Some damn weird weather we're having here in NY. Thursday it hit 70. Fri and Sat were in the 30s and 40s. Today it's back up to 60.

Great opportunity to blame Obama.

71 BongCrodny  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 1:33:16pm

re: #68 Pope Ron Polyp XXXVII

Do you know the odds of getting a Royal Fizbin?!

Eleventy to one.

72 Charleston Chew  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 1:35:39pm

re: #59 Targetpractice

I don't think we're ever going to be out of danger at this rate. Pissing on corpses, burning Qurans, shooting civilians. It seems like we've gone from one incident to the next. And the Right cheering those responsible on, every step of the way, thinking that the apologies are what's putting us in danger.

The challenge of modern warfare is that it exists not simply for conquest and destruction as in olden days, but as just one tool in the toolbox of political diplomacy. And diplomacy requires sophistication, tact, and foresight. But as in olden days, soldiers are still young men, the demographic least capable of sophistication, tact, and foresight. (I can say this because I used to be one.)

The only solution I can see is that we need to make mecha-style combat suits a reality so that my grandma can be sent in to a combat zone to kill enemy soldiers and then bake pies and meatloaf for the civilians. And maybe send them all a birthday card with $20 bucks in it every year.

73 b_Snark  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 1:39:53pm

These horrific comments are obviously the work of some well trained, Soros funded, gorilla guerrilla leftists.

/// /// /// /// ///

74 Prideful, Arrogant Marriage Equality Advocate  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 1:40:30pm

There is something seriously wrong with those people. seriously.
And even the halfway reasoned ones still view the conservative party as the Christian party.
Our politics in this country are broken. Nothing healthy about it left when one party is this ....something, i don't know what.

75 b_Snark  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 1:41:25pm

re: #74 The Round Heeled Savage Cannibal Ghoul

There is something seriously wrong with those people. seriously.

Seriously?

76 Prideful, Arrogant Marriage Equality Advocate  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 1:43:34pm

re: #72 Charleston Chew

Are you saying this kind of behavior is to be expected? I completely agree with that, and what you are saying but we can't just let it slide.

77 Prideful, Arrogant Marriage Equality Advocate  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 1:43:50pm

re: #75 b_sharp

So seriously.

78 Kronocide  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 1:45:54pm

Impatiently awaiting Ms Drop Trou's comments on this horrific shooting in Afghanistan...

79 b_Snark  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 1:46:31pm

re: #77 The Round Heeled Savage Cannibal Ghoul

So seriously.

I seriously agree.
I'm starting to think muddle-headedness leads to anger, which when tweaked and prodded in the right way, leads to hate which in turn leads to more muddle-headedness.

80 Shiplord Kirel  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 1:48:52pm

Imagine what will happen when they get the shooter home and the trial starts. It will be a Roman circus, with our ethically challenged right wing embarrassing us in front of the world yet again.

There is a precedent for this response. Many people treated William Calley as a hero. There were songs praising him, telegrams to the White House ran 100 to 1 in favor of clemency for him, and his wedding to a wealthy Georgia socialite was the event of the season.

81 erik_t  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 1:49:49pm

Just read a little bit of the main post. You can get away with 'DUMB_N*****'?

Seriously?

For shit's sakes, Fox, you aren't even parsing subsections of words? Did you attend the Post-Breitbart Center For Kids Who Can't Admin Good And Wanna Learn To Do Other Stuff Good Too?

82 Gus  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 1:51:32pm

Sick people. No surprise that their heroes are Slobodan Milošević and Augusto Pinochet. Cheering this incident is the next step towards endorsing the genocide of a people.

In other winger craziness of the day we have this:

83 Charleston Chew  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 1:52:53pm

re: #76 The Round Heeled Savage Cannibal Ghoul

Are you saying this kind of behavior is to be expected? I completely agree with that, and what you are saying but we can't just let it slide.

It is to be expected but must be prevented. But it's a huge systemic problem.

This is not a dis on young men, but the fact is that they are more reckless and tactless than anyone, yet ironically we've developed a system where we give them weapons and send them out to be the first and only Americans many people ever meet.

84 austin_blue  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 1:54:46pm

The comments are beneath contempt.

This is tragic for everyone involved. The Afghans. Their families. Our standing in the country. The soldier. His family.

If he had a previous breakdown, as reported, how did he get off-base? An awful confluence of events.

((sigh))

85 Gus  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 1:55:17pm

Non stop right wing crazy in fact.

86 Gus  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 1:56:22pm
87 b_Snark  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 1:56:44pm

re: #78 Kronocide

Impatiently awaiting Ms Drop Trou's comments on this horrific shooting in Afghanistan...

I hope when she drops trou and squats, it's over a cactus.

88 Lidane  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 1:57:33pm

re: #67 Meh.

No. They're playing fizbin. Making up their own rules. And still losing...

At this point, I'm convinced these morons are playing Calvinball without the rules. Or a game of 43-Man Squamish with 42 men. =P

89 Stanghazi  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 2:02:21pm

re: #84 austin_blue

The comments are beneath contempt.

This is tragic for everyone involved. The Afghans. Their families. Our standing in the country. The soldier. His family.

If he had a previous breakdown, as reported, how did he get off-base? An awful confluence of events.

((sigh))

I'm trying to catch the updates, Where do you see he had breakdown before? & wtf is with the villagers indicating it was a group?

90 jaunte  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 2:02:47pm

Army Sergeant Accused of Slaying 16 in Afghan Villages

Abdul Hadi Arghandehwal, the minister of economy and the leader of Hezb-e Islami, a major Afghan political party with Islamist leanings, said there would probably be new protests. But he said the killings should be seen as the act of an individual and not of the United States.

"It is not the decision of the army officer to order somebody to do something like this,” he said. “Probably there are going to be many demonstrations, but it will not change the decisions of our government about our relationship with the United States.”

91 b_Snark  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 2:03:00pm

re: #89 Stanley Sea for a while, till someone screws up

I'm trying to catch the updates, Where do you see he had breakdown before? & wtf is with the villagers indicating it was a group?

Fog of war.

Foghorn Leghorn of war.

92 engineer cat  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 2:03:38pm

instead of prosperity and equality they offer austerity and morality

i think imma getta job writin speeches for william mckinley

93 b_Snark  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 2:06:54pm

re: #92 engineer cat

instead of prosperity and equality they offer austerity and morality

i think imma getta job writin speeches for william mckinley

Better start slow, maybe write speeches for Elmer Fudd first.

94 ramex  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 2:07:23pm

This is a chilling level of hatred, and it will, by means of the internet, be heard around the world, and the world will be judging. FOX News, by allowing these comments, is damaging our image abroad.

95 Stanghazi  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 2:08:31pm

re: #86 Gus

Just read that. Horror.

96 engineer cat  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 2:10:32pm

re: #93 b_sharp

Better start slow, maybe write speeches for Elmer Fudd first.

i am elmer j fudd, millionaire

i own a mansion and a yacht

97 b_Snark  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 2:11:51pm

re: #96 engineer cat

i am elmer j fudd, millionaire

i own a mansion and a yacht

Lend me a million so I can organize a demonstration against you fat cats.

98 Ben G. Hazi  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 2:13:30pm

re: #27 HappyWarrior

You know if you're gonna use a racial slur, at least have the goddamn courage to spell it out instead of being a passive aggressive wimp. None of this "niqqer" or "Mus lim" crap.

They can't, because the word filters would censor them if they spelled their slurs correctly; the bigots think they're smart this way, but it's still 10 pounds of crazy in a 5-pound bag.

99 Gus  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 2:17:29pm

BBL

100 engineer cat  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 2:19:54pm

i had no idea that the afghans have so far obstinately refused to leave afghanistan

101 Lidane  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 2:21:15pm

re: #85 Gus

Non stop right wing crazy in fact.

Yeah, pretty much:

102 Kronocide  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 2:25:23pm

Keep the focus on Fluke so you don't have to accept that the GOP's Press Secretary went on a slut shaming rampage and lost 98 advertisers.

103 Lidane  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 2:26:00pm

re: #94 ramex

This is a chilling level of hatred, and it will, by means of the internet, be heard around the world, and the world will be judging. FOX News, by allowing these comments, is damaging our image abroad.

They don't care. The GOP base doesn't care.

All they care about is spewing their hatred for President Obama and for everyone else they don't like.

104 engineer cat  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 2:26:25pm

You Tube

i am NOT a tube!!!

105 Targetpractice  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 2:26:40pm

re: #102 Kronocide

Keep the focus on Fluke so you don't have to accept that the GOP's Press Secretary went on a slut shaming rampage and lost 98 advertisers.

And is now trying to scrub his website.

106 austin_blue  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 2:27:55pm

re: #89 Stanley Sea for a while, till someone screws up

I'm trying to catch the updates, Where do you see he had breakdown before? & wtf is with the villagers indicating it was a group?

From the Guardian:

"Reports that the soldier, a staff sergeant, might have suffered some kind of breakdown before embarking on his killing spree were rejected. "If the US say this man has mental problems it raises questions for them, as they don't register anyone in their army if they have mental problems," said a Kandahar government spokesman, Javed Faisal."

Can't find the specifics, but that story is out there.

107 Lidane  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 2:28:14pm

re: #105 Targetpractice

And is now trying to scrub his website.

Which is pointless because people have already taken screenshots and archives of everything. That's why they know he's scrubbing the site.

These morons just don't understand how the internet works.

108 Targetpractice  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 2:29:33pm

re: #107 Lidane

Which is pointless because people have already taken screenshots and archives of everything. That's why they know he's scrubbing the site.

These morons just don't understand how the internet works.

Oh, I figure we'll hear about it tomorrow, something along the lines of "I don't know what people think I said, but that's not what I said!"

109 Kronocide  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 2:30:19pm

re: #108 Targetpractice

Oh, I figure we'll hear about it tomorrow, something along the lines of "I don't know what people think I said, but that's not what I said!"

Words mean things

Rush Limbaugh

110 Kragar  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 2:31:43pm

re: #102 Kronocide

Keep the focus on Fluke so you don't have to accept that the GOP's Press Secretary went on a slut shaming rampage and lost 98 advertisers.

Don't forget to totally misrepresent what she said.

111 Lidane  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 2:31:59pm

re: #108 Targetpractice

Oh, I figure we'll hear about it tomorrow, something along the lines of "I don't know what people think I said, but that's not what I said!"

"Never mind the video footage of me saying exactly what I said. Let me tell you now how I didn't say any of it!"

112 Targetpractice  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 2:33:20pm

re: #111 Lidane

"This is just more liberal propaganda, the continued effort to destroy me and this show. I never said that and anyone claiming otherwise is lying to you!"

113 Kronocide  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 2:33:47pm

re: #110 Kragar

Don't forget to totally misrepresent what she said.

SOROS ELEVENTY!

114 Ben G. Hazi  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 2:33:50pm

re: #107 Lidane

Which is pointless because people have already taken screenshots and archives of everything. That's why they know he's scrubbing the site.

These morons just don't understand how the internet works.

Oh, I think they know exactly how the Internet works; Rush may be a POS, but he's not a (completely) stupid man. Their goal is to sweep this shit under the rug from as many prying eyes as possible; they know that most of their audience isn't gonna use Google Cache or the Wayback Machine to see what he really said (that is, if robots.txt didn't preclude this).

He also knows that the majority of his audience isn't going to go to Media Matters for the info either; he prefers to keep his audience like mushrooms: in the dark and fed a bunch of bullshit.

115 Targetpractice  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 2:36:18pm

re: #114 talon_262

Oh, I think they know exactly how the Internet works; Rush may be a POS, but he's not a (completely) stupid man. Their goal is to sweep this shit under the rug from as many prying eyes as possible; they know that most of their audience isn't gonna use Google Cache or the Wayback Machine to see what he really said (that is, if robots.txt didn't preclude this).

He also knows that the majority of his audience isn't going to go to Media Matters for the info either; he prefers to keep his audience like mushrooms: in the dark and fed a bunch of bullshit.

I'd almost call it a sign of guilt, that he knows that his words were wrong and he's now trying to hide them. But that would assume that the man has the ability to feel guilt and I think we can safely say that that's just not the case. It's not just an effort to keep his fans in the dark, it's also aimed at denying his critics direct links to his words, so that his critics can't send his fans to see for themselves.

116 Killgore Trout  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 2:40:29pm

re: #115 Targetpractice

I'd almost call it a sign of guilt, that he knows that his words were wrong and he's now trying to hide them. But that would assume that the man has the ability to feel guilt and I think we can safely say that that's just not the case. It's not just an effort to keep his fans in the dark, it's also aimed at denying his critics direct links to his words, so that his critics can't send his fans to see for themselves.

I think it's a no win situation. If he left his comments up the same people would complain that he hasn't taken them down. I do find it sort of ironic that people who want him taken off the radio for offensive speech are complaining that he deleted the same same offensive speech from his website.

117 Kronocide  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 2:44:17pm

Who's complaining that Rush's comments were removed? It's being acknowledged that he removed them.

It's not a no win for Rush. He could actually apologize with contrition and not play the victim for it.

118 Lidane  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 2:44:19pm

re: #116 Killgore Trout

Who wants him taken off the air? I want him to keep spewing his idiocy all the way through the election. The more stupid shit he does to derail the GOP the better.

That said, advertiser boycotts are still perfectly valid no matter how much you whine about them. They're just like any other form of political protest.

119 Ben G. Hazi  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 2:46:20pm

re: #116 Killgore Trout

I think it's a no win situation. If he left his comments up the same people would complain that he hasn't taken them down. I do find it sort of ironic that people who want him taken off the radio for offensive speech are complaining that he deleted the same same offensive speech from his website.

Oh, come off of the "poor, poor Rush is being unfairly targeted" crap, KT.

Frankly, I'm surprised it's taken Rush this long to scrub his site of those show transcripts/videos.

120 b_Snark  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 2:47:37pm

The actions of this solder, while horrific and tragic and though not forgivable, are in some way understandable; in people directly involved in war, the sense of self can be severely damaged and some of those people simply break. We can't say the same thing for armchair hawks. Their words are despicable and very hard to take. That difficulty leads some, me included, to be inappropriately flippant.

I'm going to sign out for a bit. At least until I gain some perspective.

121 Kronocide  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 2:47:41pm

re: #116 Killgore Trout

I do find it sort of ironic that people who want him taken off the radio for offensive speech are complaining that he deleted the same same offensive speech from his website.

Who has been complaining that the transcripts were removed? I'm getting a sense that the complaints were his actual comments that were recorded in the transcripts.

122 budda10000  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 2:47:46pm

re: #19 HappyWarrior

They will be targeted either way. Lets get real here, it was only a matter of time before we(US) turned into a hated occupational force just like the soviets. You will never win an occupation unless your tactics are brutal and your goal is total submission/empire building. Our forces are simply too humane to accomplish this and it should not be our goal to begin with hence we should leave and make it a point to tar and feather any idiot politician that ever utters the phrase "winning hearts and minds" again. It is not the US job to induce an era of enlightenment in the islamic world. If and when they decide to stop living in the middle ages it will happen on its own. Until then we trade with them but otherwise stay the hell off Islamic lands and use our special forces/drones to merc any future bin ladens.

123 Targetpractice  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 2:47:55pm

re: #116 Killgore Trout

I think it's a no win situation. If he left his comments up the same people would complain that he hasn't taken them down. I do find it sort of ironic that people who want him taken off the radio for offensive speech are complaining that he deleted the same same offensive speech from his website.

Is that what you truly believe, Kilgore, that he's doing this for his critics? That he's scrubbing his site because he wants to show that he realizes what he said was wrong?

124 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 2:48:01pm

re: #3 jaunte

At Fox news, commenter "chiefpride" vainly calls for a reasoned response:

Chiefpride needs to find a better place to post. He's not going to make any headway with those haters, he makes too much sense.

125 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 2:52:37pm

re: #122 budda10000

That may not be enough, especially since they need our help to extract their oil. Their hate and the damage it does are just what we have to live with.

This is a game we can't really win or get out of right now. We're stuck playing it for the medium term. Long term, the only way out is to use less oil.

126 Obdicut  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 2:55:25pm

re: #116 Killgore Trout

That he's removing just the especially vitriolic bits, and not the outright lies, tells you a lot about Rush Limbaugh.

127 lawhawk  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 2:55:36pm

There's absolutely no good that can come from the actions of the US Service Member who carried out this crime against the Afghan people. His justifications are irrelevant at this point - he engaged in homicide and must be dealt with accordingly.

Where this is going to get even tougher than it already is is in the Afghan government's all too be expected demands that the soldier be tried in Afghan courts.

This is the same kind of liability issue that thwarted any long-lasting US presence in Iraq - the US rightfully so refused to accede justice involving its service members to a foreign government. It may well hasten the US departure from Afghanistan unless a resolution can be addressed in a timely manner.

The President will likely issue an apology - correctly so despite the whining of the right wing nutters who clearly have no idea what kind of repercussions this will have and the detrimental effects it has on views of the US from abroad.

At the same time - swift justice by the US - a public justice would help matters and show that the US will punish its own.

Life in Leavenworth is the most likely outcome (or similar maximum security facility), although the crimes would appear subject to either capital punishment or life in prison.

128 Ben G. Hazi  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 2:56:05pm

re: #116 Killgore Trout

I think it's a no win situation. If he left his comments up the same people would complain that he hasn't taken them down. I do find it sort of ironic that people who want him taken off the radio for offensive speech are complaining that he deleted the same same offensive speech from his website.

BTW, most of the people leaning on Rush's advertisers over this whole mess aren't complaining necessarily that he was having his website scrubbed, because it would be expected from him sooner or later, but that he said this shit at all, over and over and over again.

129 Lidane  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 2:58:30pm

re: #128 talon_262

BTW, most of the people leaning on Rush's advertisers over this whole mess aren't complaining necessarily that he was having his website scrubbed, but that he said this shit at all, over and over and over again.

Don't bother. KT's got it in his head that poor widdle Rushie is being unfairly targeted and maligned, and that people are trying to force him to censor himself.

130 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 2:59:04pm

re: #127 lawhawk

There's absolutely no good that can come from the actions of the US Service Member who carried out this crime against the Afghan people. His justifications are irrelevant at this point - he engaged in homicide and must be dealt with accordingly.

Where this is going to get even tougher than it already is is in the Afghan government's all too be expected demands that the soldier be tried in Afghan courts.

This is the same kind of liability issue that thwarted any long-lasting US presence in Iraq - the US rightfully so refused to accede justice involving its service members to a foreign government. It may well hasten the US departure from Afghanistan unless a resolution can be addressed in a timely manner.

The President will likely issue an apology - correctly so despite the whining of the right wing nutters who clearly have no idea what kind of repercussions this will have and the detrimental effects it has on views of the US from abroad.

At the same time - swift justice by the US - a public justice would help matters and show that the US will punish its own.

Life in Leavenworth is the most likely outcome (or similar maximum security facility), although the crimes would appear subject to either capital punishment or life in prison.

I'd ask for thoughts on handing him over to the Afghans or quickly shooting him for this. I know that would violate his rights completely, but killing him quickly and publicly might actually help the situation. I don't like that option, though, and the US domestic blowback would be bad.

131 Stanghazi  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 2:59:31pm

re: #127 lawhawk

There's absolutely no good that can come from the actions of the US Service Member who carried out this crime against the Afghan people. His justifications are irrelevant at this point - he engaged in homicide and must be dealt with accordingly.

Where this is going to get even tougher than it already is is in the Afghan government's all too be expected demands that the soldier be tried in Afghan courts.

This is the same kind of liability issue that thwarted any long-lasting US presence in Iraq - the US rightfully so refused to accede justice involving its service members to a foreign government. It may well hasten the US departure from Afghanistan unless a resolution can be addressed in a timely manner.

The President will likely issue an apology - correctly so despite the whining of the right wing nutters who clearly have no idea what kind of repercussions this will have and the detrimental effects it has on views of the US from abroad.

At the same time - swift justice by the US - a public justice would help matters and show that the US will punish its own.

Life in Leavenworth is the most likely outcome (or similar maximum security facility), although the crimes would appear subject to either capital punishment or life in prison.

132 Stanghazi  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 3:00:32pm

re: #129 Lidane

Don't bother. KT's got it in his head that poor widdle Rushie is being unfairly targeted and maligned, and that people are trying to force him to censor himself.

And he's thread jacking again.

133 Ben G. Hazi  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 3:02:01pm

re: #132 Stanley Sea for a while, till someone screws up

And he's thread jacking again.

At least we got him off of OWS for a while.

Derp, it's a helluva drug.

134 Lidane  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 3:03:39pm

re: #130 Dark_Falcon

I'd ask for thoughts on handing him over to the Afghans or quickly shooting him for this. I know that would violate his rights completely, but killing him quickly and publicly might actually help the situation. I don't like that option, though, and the US domestic blowback would be bad.

That won't happen. Could you imagine the shitstorm if President Obama ordered the soldier killed? There'd be skiing in hell before that happened.

My guess is that the American military will push hard to try the solider in their courts and as one of their own. No handing him over to the Afghans or anything.

135 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 3:03:47pm

re: #133 talon_262

At least we got him off of OWS for a while.

Derp, it's a helluva drug.

So is attention. I know, since I sometimes louse up to get attention, too. So I know how Killgore feels.

136 Stanghazi  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 3:04:17pm

re: #133 talon_262

At least we got him off of OWS for a while.

Derp, it's a helluva drug.

Last comment, then I'm scroll-a-rama, OWS, Susan G. Komen, Rush.

It's been quite a show.

137 Obdicut  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 3:04:58pm

re: #134 Lidane

My guess is that the American military will push hard to try the solider in their courts and as one of their own. No handing him over to the Afghans or anything.

Do we have any sort of treaty with Afghanistan governing this sort of thing? Anyone know?

138 ReamWorks SKG  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 3:06:04pm

I just don't get it. I would think the reaction of a "normal" American would be like mine: one's heart would sink when he reads a news story like this.

139 Lidane  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 3:06:14pm

re: #137 Obdicut

Do we have any sort of treaty with Afghanistan governing this sort of thing? Anyone know?

No idea. That's why I'm guessing the military will push hard for them to handle his prosecution and sentencing.

140 Lidane  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 3:06:51pm

On a completely OT, and slightly cuter note, here's a time-lapse pregnancy video:

141 Renaissance_Man  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 3:07:22pm

re: #130 Dark_Falcon

I'd ask for thoughts on handing him over to the Afghans or quickly shooting him for this. I know that would violate his rights completely, but killing him quickly and publicly might actually help the situation. I don't like that option, though, and the US domestic blowback would be bad.

I'm not sure whether to be impressed that you've transcended teamthink enough to consider violating justice and the basic rights for someone on 'your team', or appalled that you're endorsing fascist authoritarianism. Again.

142 Decatur Deb  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 3:09:30pm

re: #134 Lidane

That won't happen. Could you imagine the shitstorm if President Obama ordered the soldier killed? There'd be skiing in hell before that happened.

My guess is that the American military will push hard to try the solider in their courts and as one of their own. No handing him over to the Afghans or anything.

It's months too soon to think of what should justly happen to this soldier. He will not be turned over to the host nation. He'll get due process under the UCMJ, and there is a good chance the verdict will come out right.

Lt. Calley sells jewelry in a town not far from here.

143 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 3:10:00pm

re: #134 Lidane

That won't happen. Could you imagine the shitstorm if President Obama ordered the soldier killed? There'd be skiing in hell before that happened.

My guess is that the American military will push hard to try the solider in their courts and as one of their own. No handing him over to the Afghans or anything.

I know. I'm just saying that's the only way things could be quieted down. What's actually going to happen is that he'll be tried by court martial and it'll take months to actually hold the trial. If the verdict ends up guilty and a death sentence is imposed, that might satisfy some Afghans, though it's doubtful if the sentence would ever be carried out (there have been no executions of service members who committed murder in over 25 years). But if the verdict was "no guilty by reason of insanity", it would be seen by many in Afghanistan as the final insult.

This is on of those cases where people who aren't used to our justice system are likely to feel cheated by the way it works.

144 Kronocide  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 3:10:14pm

I expect the Silence Rush meme to be pushed on the partisan blogs, but it won't fly here.

145 jamesfirecat  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 3:10:17pm

re: #6 Targetpractice

Oh, he won't be around for long.

I don't know, he could be showing up here any day now....

146 Targetpractice  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 3:11:00pm

re: #134 Lidane

That won't happen. Could you imagine the shitstorm if President Obama ordered the soldier killed? There'd be skiing in hell before that happened.

My guess is that the American military will push hard to try the solider in their courts and as one of their own. No handing him over to the Afghans or anything.

You're very likely right, he'll be quickly and quietly shuffled back to the US, where any trial will get bogged own in the intricacies of the legal system. Meanwhile, the Afghani people will see this as just another incident of us protecting our own and riot again, with the predictable injuries and losses of life.

147 jamesfirecat  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 3:12:21pm

re: #26 celticdragon

Khorne is tricky that way.

"Khorn", "tricky"? That's DOUBLE HERESY!

148 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 3:14:09pm

re: #141 Renaissance_Man

I'm not sure whether to be impressed that you've transcended teamthink enough to consider violating justice and the basic rights for someone on 'your team', or appalled that you're endorsing fascist authoritarianism. Again.

My only reason for suggesting it was as a way to prevent more bloodshed. Killing this shithead would help quell Afghan anger and that would save lives. I fully appreciate the argument that that is not a shortcut we should take, that fundamental rights should not be abridged to end a crisis. It may well be the correct argument, but I also wanted to put in another view on this matter and see what people think of it.

149 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 3:14:47pm

re: #146 Targetpractice

You're very likely right, he'll be quickly and quietly shuffled back to the US, where any trial will get bogged own in the intricacies of the legal system. Meanwhile, the Afghani people will see this as just another incident of us protecting our own and riot again, with the predictable injuries and losses of life.

This.

150 Lidane  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 3:14:55pm
151 William Barnett-Lewis  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 3:17:18pm

Meanwhile on back on Super Tuesday:

Lost amid the post–Super Tuesday analysis is the fact that Barack Obama actually got more votes than Mitt Romney in the crucial battleground state of Ohio last night, 547,588 to 456,205, according to the Ohio secretary of state.

The Nation, reposted by NPR:
[Link: www.npr.org...]

152 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 3:18:14pm

re: #150 Lidane

Grayson is an asshole, but it is rotten to want him to be hurt or killed.

153 Decatur Deb  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 3:19:30pm

re: #151 William Barnett-Lewis

Meanwhile on back on Super Tuesday:

The Nation, reposted by NPR:
[Link: www.npr.org...]

Pffftt. Just Republican cross-overs doing an Operation Chaos to assure the Dems have the weaker candidate.

154 goddamnedfrank  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 3:21:22pm

re: #146 Targetpractice

You're very likely right, he'll be quickly and quietly shuffled back to the US, where any trial will get bogged own in the intricacies of the legal system. Meanwhile, the Afghani people will see this as just another incident of us protecting our own and riot again, with the predictable injuries and losses of life.

We should just pack it in. There was no winning before this, and there's no creating of stability after. Next week, month, year, decade in Afghanistan are all going to suck and our continued presence there will be generate nothing but more angst, violence and tears.

155 jamesfirecat  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 3:22:39pm

re: #148 Dark_Falcon

My only reason for suggesting it was as a way to prevent more bloodshed. Killing this shithead would help quell Afghan anger and that would save lives. I fully appreciate the argument that that is not a shortcut we should take, that fundamental rights should not be abridged to end a crisis. It may well be the correct argument, but I also wanted to put in another view on this matter and see what people think of it.

I think it reeks too much of "I want X, what can I do to get X" thinking. If you're only focusing on your immediate goal and not the over all picture you miss the forest for the trees.

156 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 3:23:20pm

re: #154 goddamnedfrank

We should just pack it in. There was no winning before this, and there's no creating of stability after. Next week, month, year, decade in Afghanistan are all going to suck and our continued presence there will be generate nothing but more angst, violence and tears.

The problem is we can't leave right now, or it'll look too much like we're running. We can walk away, but we cannot be seen as fleeing.

157 Decatur Deb  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 3:23:47pm

re: #154 goddamnedfrank

We should just pack it in. There was no winning before this, and there's no creating of stability after. Next week, month, year, decade in Afghanistan are all going to suck and our continued presence there will be generate nothing but more angst, violence and tears.

We accomplished the Afghanistan mission when Bin Laden settled into the mud. By then, we had forgotten why we went.

158 Lidane  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 3:24:31pm

re: #156 Dark_Falcon

The problem is we can't leave right now, or it'll look too much like we're running. We can walk away, but we cannot be seen as fleeing.

Just imagine how things would be now if we'd been warned about war in Afghanistan, or if there were any historical examples to look at before going in.

///

159 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 3:25:36pm

re: #155 jamesfirecat

I think it reeks too much of "I want X, what can I do to get X" thinking. If you're only focusing on your immediate goal and not the over all picture you miss the forest for the trees.

Likely true. But when you're looking at a immediate disaster, it tends to cause you to focus on it to the exclusion of other considerations. My thoughts were solely on preventing further loss of life.

160 Targetpractice  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 3:26:00pm

re: #156 Dark_Falcon

The problem is we can't leave right now, or it'll look too much like we're running. We can walk away, but we cannot be seen as fleeing.

Dark, seriously, there's no way we're going to leave Afghanistan that isn't going to be dubbed a "retreat" or such. The Soviets were far more brutal than we have been and even they couldn't civilize this country. There's a reason Afghanistan has been dubbed "The Graveyard of Empires."

161 jamesfirecat  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 3:26:52pm

re: #156 Dark_Falcon

The problem is we can't leave right now, or it'll look too much like we're running. We can walk away, but we cannot be seen as fleeing.

What makes the difference between running away a away, when could we "walk away" Dark, is it a matter of time or goals we need to accomplish first?

162 Stanghazi  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 3:27:50pm

re: #154 goddamnedfrank

We should just pack it in. There was no winning before this, and there's no creating of stability after. Next week, month, year, decade in Afghanistan are all going to suck and our continued presence there will be generate nothing but more angst, violence and tears.

Can you even imagine being a parent or spouse of someone there now? I woke up to this news this morning with the most horrible feeling of dread. And I'm just a regular non-involved, no stake, American.

So shitty, so damn shitty.

163 Shvaughn  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 3:28:22pm

re: #130 Dark_Falcon

I'd ask for thoughts on handing him over to the Afghans or quickly shooting him for this. I know that would violate his rights completely, but killing him quickly and publicly might actually help the situation. I don't like that option, though, and the US domestic blowback would be bad.

I am against shooting him quickly, of course, but I think there's an argument to be made that by any normal sense of justice, he should be turned over to the Afghans for trial.

164 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 3:28:28pm

re: #158 Lidane

Just imagine how things would be now if we'd been warned about war in Afghanistan, or if there were any historical examples to look at before going in.

///

Oh, shut up! We could have simply smashed the Taliban and then left or bombed the country into oblivion, but not using major force there was not an option back in 2001. 9/11 really did require the Taliban's ouster, given that they refused to hand over bin Laden. Warning didn't matter enough to stop, because it was something we really did have to do.

165 makeitstop  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 3:30:34pm

re: #164 Dark_Falcon

Oh, shut up! We could have simply smashed the Taliban and then left or bombed the country into oblivion, but not using major force there was not an option back in 2001. 9/11 really did require the Taliban's ouster, given that they refused to hand over bin Laden. Warning didn't matter enough to stop, because it was something we really did have to do.

Yeah, we simply had to go into Iraq first.
//

166 Shvaughn  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 3:30:39pm

re: #137 Obdicut

Do we have any sort of treaty with Afghanistan governing this sort of thing? Anyone know?

I'm certain that any treaty we have with them is one that says "no, we are never turning our soldiers over to you for trial, even if they go nuts and murder more than a dozen of your citizens."

Because that's the way the US does things.

167 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 3:31:05pm

re: #161 jamesfirecat

What makes the difference between running away, when could we "walk away" Dark? Is it a matter of time or goals we need to accomplish first?

Both. We need to get things quieted down more, and finish our security handovers in an orderly fashion. The plans to further expand the Afghan military need to be aborted at this point, as we're not going to be able to do nearly as much training anymore.

168 Targetpractice  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 3:32:14pm

re: #167 Dark_Falcon

Both. We need to get things quieted down more, and finish our security handovers in an orderly fashion. The plans to further expand the Afghan military need to be aborted at this point, as we're not going to be able to do nearly as much training anymore.

How do you expect to get things quieted down when the soldiers are becoming bigger targets with every incident?

169 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 3:32:38pm

re: #165 makeitstop

Yeah, we simply had to go into Iraq first.
//

Huh? We acted in Afghanistan in 2001, and did not move against Saddam Hussein till 2003.

170 Obdicut  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 3:33:29pm

re: #166 Shvaughn

Do you think he would receive a fair trial in an Afghan court?

171 Decatur Deb  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 3:33:35pm

re: #166 Shvaughn

I'm certain that any treaty we have with them is one that says "no, we are never turning our soldiers over to you for trial, even if they go nuts and murder more than a dozen of your citizens."

Because that's the way the US does things.

If we are treating Afghanistan like a 'real' country, we will have a Status of Forces Agreement that specifies how this will be handled. Each SOFA is different, and they change through time. Until the host nation is a very developed country, the SOFAs are heavily weighted to our (the more powerful) favor.

172 goddamnedfrank  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 3:34:21pm

re: #156 Dark_Falcon

The problem is we can't leave right now, or it'll look too much like we're running. We can walk away, but we cannot be seen as fleeing.

Jesus Christ who cares. The people who will see it as running / fleeing will always see it that way. It's the way they're wired. To proscribe one's available course of action based on the ignorant perceptions of others is the most counter productive kind of reactionary idiocy.

173 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 3:34:23pm

re: #168 Targetpractice

How do you expect to get things quieted down when the soldiers are becoming bigger targets with every incident?

Confine our troops to their bases for a month till the immediate anger dies down. Things will get worse in that time, but the 'worse' won't get as much media attention or generate as much anger.

174 jamesfirecat  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 3:34:42pm

re: #167 Dark_Falcon

Both. We need to get things quieted down more, and finish our security handovers in an orderly fashion. The plans to further expand the Afghan military need to be aborted at this point, as we're not going to be able to do nearly as much training anymore.

How do we do security hand overs if at the same time we're decreasing how many of them there are to hand them over to or at least decreasing the rate at which their security forces expand by cutting off training?

175 Obdicut  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 3:34:44pm

re: #164 Dark_Falcon

Oh, shut up! We could have simply smashed the Taliban and then left or bombed the country into oblivion, but not using major force there was not an option back in 2001.

We didn't really use major force. We mainly used the already-existing counter-Taliban forces, supplemented with airstrikes and special forces teams.

176 Kronocide  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 3:34:54pm

I didn't see any post from Charles reminding people to behave when Breitbart passed. Lizards acted pretty good about it.

He didn't need to.

177 Shvaughn  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 3:36:01pm

re: #170 Obdicut

Do you think he would receive a fair trial in an Afghan court?

I don't know enough about the Afghan courts to say.

I also don't know if he'd get a fair trial here, either.

If the tables were turned, I'd want a Afghan soldier who murdered American civilians on American soil tried in the U.S., though.

178 Obdicut  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 3:36:59pm

re: #177 Shvaughn

People deserve fair trials. It's important to know whether or not he'd get a fair trial in Afghanistan. I really doubt he would, given the general shambles and corruption in the government there.

I also don't know if he'd get a fair trial here, either.

Why?

179 Stanghazi  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 3:36:59pm

Wow

180 makeitstop  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 3:37:09pm

re: #169 Dark_Falcon

Huh? We acted in Afghanistan in 2001, and did not move against Saddam Hussein till 2003.

Yes, but the job was nowhere near being done at that point.

Bush took his eye of the ball, period.

181 Alexzander  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 3:37:30pm

re: #176 Kronocide

I didn't see any post from Charles reminding people to behave when Breitbart passed. Lizards acted pretty good about it.

He didn't need to.

Actually I think I remember at least one post and at least one deleted comment that went over the line.

182 Four More Tears  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 3:37:52pm

re: #176 Kronocide

I didn't see any post from Charles reminding people to behave when Breitbart passed. Lizards acted pretty good about it.

He didn't need to.

I dinstictly recall him doing exactly that.

183 Targetpractice  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 3:37:56pm

re: #173 Dark_Falcon

Confine our troops to their bases for a month till the immediate anger dies down. Things will get worse in that time, but the 'worse' won't get as much media attention or generate as much anger.

So it's Tet all over again, us huddling down and waiting for it all to blow over, while the Taliban makes propaganda headlines about how they've driven us into our bases. Yeah, I'm sure when we go back out into the streets, the people will happily welcome us back.

184 [deleted]  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 3:39:18pm
185 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 3:39:21pm

re: #176 Kronocide

I didn't see any post from Charles reminding people to behave when Breitbart passed. Lizards acted pretty good about it.

He didn't need to.

He did make clear that LGF would not the place to post something expressing glee at Breitbart's death, but he did not need to do more.

186 JamesWI  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 3:39:21pm

re: #179 Stanley Sea for a while, till someone screws up

I love how he's thinking about his VP candidate....while getting crushed in the primaries. Good lord, his ego knows no bounds. Add in the fact that his choice is probably the most incompetent candidate possible (other than Palin, of course), and it just gets better.

187 Targetpractice  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 3:39:29pm

re: #179 Stanley Sea for a while, till someone screws up

Wow

That's a whole new level of delusion, that Newt thinks he's gonna get anywhere in the primaries now, much less that he could get anybody to agree to Perry as his running mate.

188 Shvaughn  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 3:39:36pm

re: #178 Obdicut

People deserve fair trials. It's important to know whether or not he'd get a fair trial in Afghanistan. I really doubt he would, given the general shambles and corruption in the government there.

Why?

Maybe we should turn him over to the Hague for war crimes prosecutions?

189 Kragar  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 3:39:37pm

I guess Pam is waiting to hear if the guy killed the people because they were Muslim, which makes him a hero in her book, or if he was just crazy, and therefore a victim of Obama's treatment of the troops.

190 Shvaughn  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 3:40:44pm

re: #184 sizzzzlerz

Sick, sick, sick.

These people are not human. They are monsters. Every, fucking, last one of them.

No, they're human. Just horrible humans

191 Targetpractice  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 3:40:44pm

re: #189 Kragar

I guess Pam is waiting to hear if the guy killed the people because they were Muslim, which makes him a hero in her book, or if he was just crazy, and therefore a victim of Obama's treatment of the troops.

She may go for the third route I've been hearing from wingnuts, i.e. "I'm waiting for the full story, because I don't trust the media to get it right the first time! Could have been an ambush, for all we know!"

192 Decatur Deb  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 3:41:23pm

Excuse me while I explain Daylight Savings Time to a large dog. BBL.

193 Kronocide  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 3:42:28pm

re: #182 Meh.

I dinstictly recall him doing exactly that.

I missed it... but I missed some periods of time.

194 dragonath  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 3:42:32pm

There were some really ugly comments on Yahoo earlier today. The latest article is even linked to facebook so you get to see what morons look like in person.

195 PhillyPretzel  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 3:42:39pm

As if he will understand it.

196 erik_t  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 3:43:17pm

re: #192 Decatur Deb

Excuse me while I explain Daylight Savings Time to a large dog. BBL.

Morning sun dumb, evening sun great. Bark bark.

197 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 3:43:49pm

re: #183 Targetpractice

So it's Tet all over again, us huddling down and waiting for it all to blow over, while the Taliban makes propaganda headlines about how they've driven us into our bases. Yeah, I'm sure when we go back out into the streets, the people will happily welcome us back.

We actually hammered the NVA's attack on Tet into the ground, and staying in our bases while they attacked our positions was a sound operational decision. We counter attacked promptly back then and scored a major military victory. But Tet also exposed our previous strategy as an utter failure and caused the American public to justifiably lose faith. Creighton Abrams was brought in to replace the failed William Westmoreland, and Richard Nixon adopted better methods at the national level, but the damage had been done.

198 Digital Display  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 3:44:19pm

re: #181 Emmanuel Levinas

Actually I think I remember at least one post and at least one deleted comment that went over the line.

From the first day I ever read here..Charles has always asked us to be respectful of those who have passed.. Charles has always shown respect no matter what..Back in the Wild West days here people have said some disgusting things..He has deleted many things about many people over many years..

199 The Questionable Timing of a Flea  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 3:44:19pm

re: #148 Dark_Falcon

My only reason for suggesting it was as a way to prevent more bloodshed. Killing this shithead would help quell Afghan anger and that would save lives. I fully appreciate the argument that that is not a shortcut we should take, that fundamental rights should not be abridged to end a crisis. It may well be the correct argument, but I also wanted to put in another view on this matter and see what people think of it.

Two reasons:

One, there's a multi-layered problem with PTSD in the armed services, and this case raises a sizable question about how well the system in place copes with combat stress. How this guy had a breakdown yet could access the armory to do this, was he still on active duty, how long he'd been having issues.... We may have just learned some very ugly things about how too many tours and constant fear damage the mind.

Two, is this really a simple case of breakdown --> killing spree? TV psychology makes that idea intuitively feel "true," but this kind of violence is fringe of the fringe. The antecedents to this tragedy need to be gone through with a fine-tooth comb. It would be tragic if experiences in wartime transformed this man, but it would be a different kind of bad if his decision to conduct a massacre was colored by ideology or a belief system. There's been way too many reports about white nationalist and Dominionist recruitment in the military lately.

200 Killgore Trout  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 3:45:43pm

re: #123 Targetpractice

Is that what you truly believe, Kilgore, that he's doing this for his critics? That he's scrubbing his site because he wants to show that he realizes what he said was wrong?

I think someone decided it was best to cool down the controversy. I don't think there's any regret, shame or some secret plot to hide the comments.

201 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 3:46:12pm

re: #188 Shvaughn

Maybe we should turn him over to the Hague for war crimes prosecutions?

No, they'd take longer than we would. The long part of any investigation is not going to be gathering evidence into the killings, its going to be determining if the soldier in question was sane at the time of the killings.

202 Targetpractice  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 3:46:51pm

re: #197 Dark_Falcon

We actually hammered the NVA's attack on Tet into the ground, and staying in our bases while they attacked our positions was a sound operational decision. We counter attacked promptly back then and scored a major military victory. But Tet also exposed our previous strategy as an utter failure and caused the American public to justifiably lose faith. Creighton Abrams was brought in to replace the failed William Westmoreland, and Richard Nixon adopted better methods at the national level, but the damage had been done.

And that's just it, Dark, the damage has already been done. The people there and here have lost faith that this war can be won in any manner that won't leave us running from Afghanistan with our tails between our legs. When the average Afghan on the street is more inclined to believe the Taliban than us, then it's game over.

203 Stanghazi  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 3:48:12pm

re: #198 HoosierHoops

Hey, hows the LL going? (hope you get it)

204 sagehen  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 3:48:16pm

re: #202 Targetpractice

And that's just it, Dark, the damage has already been done. The people there and here have lost faith that this war can be won in any manner that won't leave us running from Afghanistan with our tails between our legs. When the average Afghan on the street is more inclined to believe the Taliban than us, then it's game over.

We should have started packing up the week after Bin Laden was killed; that was our last chance to go out on a high note.

205 [deleted]  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 3:48:33pm
206 Targetpractice  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 3:48:39pm

re: #200 Killgore Trout

I think someone decided it was best to cool down the controversy. I don't think there's any regret, shame or some secret plot to hide the comments.

How is it that you believe that scrubbing the transcripts, without acknowledgment or explanation, is going to "cool down the controversy"?

207 Sol Berdinowitz  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 3:49:15pm

re: #105 Targetpractice

And is now trying to scrub his website.

Look, scrubbing a website is like tossing out photos of your ex: Everybody wjho knows you remenbers you were married, you just don't want to be reminded of it any more than necessary.

208 Obdicut  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 3:49:32pm

re: #188 Shvaughn

Maybe we should turn him over to the Hague for war crimes prosecutions?

Why don't you think he'd get a fair trail in the US?

I'd be fine with him being tried in the Hague, but it'd be better if he was tried in the US. We're capable of giving him a fair trial.

209 goddamnedfrank  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 3:51:38pm

re: #208 Obdicut

Why don't you think he'd get a fair trail in the US?

I'd be fine with him being tried in the Hague, but it'd be better if he was tried in the US. We're capable of giving him a fair trial.

We'd have to belong to the ICC first, and if we handed him over the domestic conservatives would poop felines.

210 Obdicut  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 3:52:38pm

re: #209 goddamnedfrank

We'd have to belong to the ICC first, and if we handed him over the domestic conservatives would poop felines.

Yeah, I meant in the abstract, I know it's not an actual political/legal possibility.

211 Sophia77  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 3:53:04pm

Oh this is a horror, an outrage.

I cannot believe anybody, even on the FOX "News" site, would be making excuses for this.

If there are any Afghan people reading this thread, please know the vast majority of Americans must be horrified and shocked to the core about this tragedy.

212 Shvaughn  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 3:53:17pm

re: #208 Obdicut

Why don't you think he'd get a fair trail in the US?

I'd be fine with him being tried in the Hague, but it'd be better if he was tried in the US. We're capable of giving him a fair trial.

I think there's something inherently unjust about an occupier trying members of its own occupying army for crimes committed against the occupied people.

213 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 3:53:27pm

re: #199 The Ghost of a Flea

Two reasons:

One, there's a multi-layered problem with PTSD in the armed services, and this case raises a sizable question about how well the system in place copes with combat stress. How this guy had a breakdown yet could access the armory to do this, was he still on active duty, how long he'd been having issues... We may have just learned some very ugly things about how too many tours and constant fear damage the mind.

Two, is this really a simple case of breakdown --> killing spree? TV psychology makes that idea intuitively feel "true," but this kind of violence is fringe of the fringe. The antecedents to this tragedy need to be gone through with a fine-tooth comb. It would be tragic if experiences in wartime transformed this man, but it would be a different kind of bad if his decision to conduct a massacre was colored by ideology or a belief system. There's been way too many reports about white nationalist and Dominionist recruitment in the military lately.

The system does place great emphasis on treating combat stress, I can tell you that from my research. But it depends on things being reported and acted on properly, and that sometimes does not happen. This may be negligence or a desire to not see a fellow soldier stigmatized or even someone who downplayed in his own mind the problems the shooter was having.

214 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 3:54:27pm

re: #212 Shvaughn

I think there's something inherently unjust about an occupier trying members of its own occupying army for crimes committed against the occupied people.

Not really, as long as it does so fairly and honestly.

215 Sol Berdinowitz  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 3:56:04pm

re: #212 Shvaughn

I think there's something inherently unjust about an occupier trying members of its own occupying army for crimes committed against the occupied people.

I astill have faith in our nation's ability to mete out justice. We are not in that country to ravage its resources, we are there to promote peace and stability throughout the region and the world.

216 Digital Display  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 3:56:56pm

re: #203 Stanley Sea for a while, till someone screws up

Hey, hows the LL going? (hope you get it)

Hi You..So Saturday morning we are eating beakfast and she starts talking about some book she is reading ( I try not to glaze over ) I's about a Character Called Killgore Trout..I almost choked on my eggs laughing..i asked what the deal was with KT. So I kind of know the back story KT..
Things are going great..We are going out of town in 2 weeks for the weekend.Kind of a big step..

217 Shvaughn  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 3:58:27pm

re: #215 Ministry of Fairness and Balance

I astill have faith in our nation's ability to mete out justice. We are not in that country to ravage its resources, we are there to promote peace and stability throughout the region and the world.

It's easy for an American to have confidence in American justice. If you were an Afghan, would you have the same confidence in the U.S. justice system after the last 10 years?

It's 16 Afghans who were blown away by this criminal. It's their families who are calling for justice. How would you reassure them that the United States justice system will give it to them?

218 Killgore Trout  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 3:58:34pm

re: #216 HoosierHoops

Hi You..So Saturday morning we are eating beakfast and she starts talking about some book she is reading ( I try not to glaze over ) I's about a Character Called Killgore Trout..I almost choked on my eggs laughing..i asked what the deal was with KT. So I kind of know the back story KT..
Things are going great..We are going out of town in 2 weeks for the weekend.Kind of a big step..

She sounds like a keeper. Not every chick has a taste for Vonnegut. Nice catch!

219 Lidane  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 3:58:34pm

re: #200 Killgore Trout

I think someone decided it was best to cool down the controversy. I don't think there's any regret, shame or some secret plot to hide the comments.

Because scrubbing a website of comments and video that are already plastered all over the internet is going to cool things off. Really.

220 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 4:00:35pm

re: #202 Targetpractice

And that's just it, Dark, the damage has already been done. The people there and here have lost faith that this war can be won in any manner that won't leave us running from Afghanistan with our tails between our legs. When the average Afghan on the street is more inclined to believe the Taliban than us, then it's game over.

Most Afghans actually do know we're more honest than the Taliban, but it matters to them who commits an act. They may well know that the Korans that were destroyed were desecrated first by the prisoners they were given to, but that's not important because the prisoners were Muslims and the Americans who burned the books aren't. They also know that Taliban attacks are often as bad as this attack was, but they didn't think one of us would do something like this. So they know the enemy does things worse than what we do, but that does not matter as much because everyone expects the Taliban to behave in an evil fashion.

221 erik_t  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 4:01:14pm

re: #217 Shvaughn

It's easy for an American to have confidence in American justice. If you were an Afghan, would you have the same confidence in the U.S. justice system after the last 10 years?

No, but there's an aspect of absolute correctness here as well. It's about actual justice as well as perceived justice.

It's 16 Afghans who were blown away by this criminal. It's their families who are calling for justice. How would you reassure them that the United States justice system will give it to them?

Shit, man, have a beer. Hell if I know. There's probably no answer to that one.

222 Sol Berdinowitz  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 4:01:45pm

re: #217 Shvaughn

It's easy for an American to have confidence in American justice. If you were an Afghan, would you have the same confidence in the U.S. justice system after the last 10 years?

It's 16 Afghans who were blown away by this criminal. It's their families who are calling for justice. How would you reassure them that the United States justice system will give it to them?

I repeat, the USA is not there to take advantage of this nation, it is there out of the necessity to bring peace and stability to the nation, the region and the entire world.

If the USA is failing to do so, or doing a poor job, it is mostly because of the difficulties inherent in this part of the world.

Afghanistan is not in a position to mete out justice to anyone at this point, nor will it be for some years to come, even under the best of circumstances.

223 Lidane  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 4:01:49pm

re: #204 sagehen

We should have started packing up the week after Bin Laden was killed; that was our last chance to go out on a high note.

Yeah, this. Once we had him bagged, tagged, and buried at sea we should have said that we'd done what we set out to do, and now we were leaving. Now it's going to look bad no matter when we leave.

224 Four More Tears  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 4:01:52pm

re: #216 HoosierHoops

Hi You..So Saturday morning we are eating breakfast...

Were you eating a breakfast of champions...?

225 lawhawk  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 4:03:50pm

SOFA for Afghanistan is, well for lack of a better term, complicated. Not sure how current this particular analysis by the CRS is, but the SOFA for Afghanistan included the following at one point:

An agreement exists regarding the status of military and civilian personnel of the U.S. Department of Defense present in Afghanistan in connection with cooperative efforts in response to terrorism, humanitarian and civic assistance, military training and exercises, and other activities.45 Such personnel are to be accorded “a status equivalent to that accorded to the administrative and technical staff” of the U.S. Embassy under the Vienna Convention on Diplomatic Relations of 1961.46 Accordingly, U.S. personnel are immune from criminal prosecution by Afghan authorities, and are immune from civil and administrative jurisdiction except with respect to acts performed outside the course of their duties.47 In the agreement, the Islamic Transitional Government of Afghanistan (ITGA)48 explicitly authorized the U.S. government to exercise criminal jurisdiction over U.S. personnel, and the Government of Afghanistan is not permitted to surrender U.S. personnel to the custody of another State, international tribunal, or any other entity without consent of the U.S. government. Although the agreement was signed by the ITGA, the subsequently elected Government of the Islamic Republic of Afghanistan assumed responsibility for ITGA’s legal obligations and the agreement
remains in force. The agreement does not appear to provide immunity for contract personnel.

This particular arrangement may have been updated since then.

That is a portion of analysis by the CRS of a number of SOFAs entered into by the US over time.

Congress has sought to modify the SOFA with Afghanistan - including one version from last year providing a definitive timeframe for withdrawal of of forces.

An updated version of a SOFA is apparently in the works (due as NATO draws down its own commitment there) - and may be accelerated as a result of the shooting.

226 Shvaughn  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 4:03:54pm

re: #222 Ministry of Fairness and Balance

I repeat, the USA is not there to take advantage of this nation, it is there out of the necessity to bring peace and stability to the nation, the region and the entire world.

If the USA is failing to do so, or doing a poor job, it is mostly because of the difficulties inherent in this part of the world.

Your naivete has a quaintly charming appeal.

227 Stanghazi  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 4:04:09pm

re: #216 HoosierHoops

Hi You..So Saturday morning we are eating beakfast and she starts talking about some book she is reading ( I try not to glaze over ) I's about a Character Called Killgore Trout..I almost choked on my eggs laughing..i asked what the deal was with KT. So I kind of know the back story KT..
Things are going great..We are going out of town in 2 weeks for the weekend.Kind of a big step..

I am so jazzed to hear this. Breakfast? ha. You enjoy EVERY DAMN MINUTE OF THIS.

228 Alexzander  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 4:04:29pm

Anyone here a fan of Townes Van Zandt?

229 Targetpractice  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 4:04:54pm

re: #220 Dark_Falcon

Most Afghans actually do know we're more honest than the Taliban, but it matters to them who commits an act. They may well know that the Korans that were destroyed were desecrated first by the prisoners they were given to, but that's not important because the prisoners were Muslims and the Americans who burned the books aren't. They also know that Taliban attacks are often as bad as this attack was, but they didn't think one of us would do something like this. So they know the enemy does things worse than what we do, but that does not matter as much because everyone expects the Taliban to behave in an evil fashion.

Yes, we've become as bad as the Taliban in their eyes, primarily because they know we're capable of better behavior and we're not meeting their expectations. How do you expect to turn that around by hiding away from them, like cowards who are afraid to face those who they've wronged?

230 goddamnedfrank  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 4:04:56pm

Remember when the Iraqis kicked us out last year? It was over exactly this kind of thing, they got sick of incidents such as those at Haditha and Nisoor Square and said if we wanted to stay there would be no more immunity from Iraqi prosecution. It's worth remembering because Obama took a lot of shit from the Republican candidates like Romney for not strong-arming Nouri al-Maliki into letting us stay on our own terms.

231 Sol Berdinowitz  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 4:06:34pm

re: #226 Shvaughn

so why is the USA there? resources? christ, if they had them, it would not be financially feasible to get at them or get them out.

the country was a staging basis for attacks on the USA and the rest of the world, we cannot leave until the nation can guarantee to a reasonable degree that it will not become one again.

232 Sol Berdinowitz  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 4:07:09pm

re: #228 Emmanuel Levinas

Anyone here a fan of Townes Van Zandt?

big one, yes.

233 erik_t  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 4:07:31pm

re: #230 goddamnedfrank

Unlike Iraq, I can't even imagine a plausible circumstance in which our continued presence is beneficial for the ultimate formation of a good* government. There's just nothing left -- at this point I can't describe a mission, or a goal, or a plan, or even a hope that doesn't involve magical fairy dust.

*lol have fun I have no interest in that argument

234 Stanghazi  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 4:07:43pm

It's....BRACKET TIME!

235 Obdicut  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 4:07:46pm

re: #212 Shvaughn

I think there's something inherently unjust about an occupier trying members of its own occupying army for crimes committed against the occupied people.

Why?

236 Obdicut  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 4:08:42pm

re: #226 Shvaughn

Your naivete has a quaintly charming appeal.

Afghanistan is really not a place you invade to take advantage of. They don't have anything, other than copious amounts of opium.

237 goddamnedfrank  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 4:08:51pm

re: #230 goddamnedfrank

In other words hopefully the Afghans will help us leave by doing exactly what the Iraqis did and repealing whatever agreement granting immunity from local prosecution they have with us.

238 lawhawk  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 4:08:51pm

re: #230 goddamnedfrank

They didn't kick us out - the SOFA provided the timetable. In it, the SOFA set a deadline to modify that SOFA and negotiate a new one. The Iraqis refused to immunize US forces and the US refused to grant jurisdiction to Iraqi courts for US servicemembers who committed crimes there. When those negotiations failed, the US forces withdrawal was as per the timetable set by the Bush Administration (who negotiated the SOFA with the Iraqi government before leaving office).

239 PhillyPretzel  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 4:08:55pm

re: #234 Stanley Sea for a while, till someone screws up
Brackets? Oh. "March Madness"

240 Shvaughn  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 4:10:09pm

re: #231 Ministry of Fairness and Balance

the country was a staging basis for attacks on the USA and the rest of the world, we cannot leave until the nation can guarantee to a reasonable degree that it will not become one again.

"Staging basis for attacks on the USA" is simply incorrect, and continuing to occupy Afghanistan is doing nothing to prevent them from being a source of terrorism anyway. If anything, it's making it easier for Afghans to shoot American soldiers.

241 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 4:10:50pm

re: #229 Targetpractice

Yes, we've become as bad as the Taliban in their eyes, primarily because they know we're capable of better behavior and we're not meeting their expectations. How do you expect to turn that around by hiding away from them, like cowards who are afraid to face those who they've wronged?

I don't, but right now they're too angry for us to be around. When someone is pissed off like they are, you're not going to be able to talk to them right away. One thing to do where possible would be to hold quick meetings to explain to local leaders that we need to step back for a short time till things cool off.

242 Digital Display  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 4:12:13pm

re: #224 Meh.

Were you eating a breakfast of champions...?

I really got so lucky to meet and get to know her..
Friday night with dinner and some dancing and time alone..It was fun..
The next thing you know you are cooking eggs in your underwear for breakfast and listening to the latest book she has read..Want more coffee dear? Listen and learn some thing Hoosier! Thank Gawd she loves to play golf.I'm falling for her

243 erik_t  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 4:12:30pm

re: #241 Dark_Falcon

I don't think I agree; any mission we've been conducting we've been conducting in the full knowledge that it puts our troops at risk every day. If it's worth that then it's worth that, if it's not then we shouldn't be doing it.

I think this to be an ill-considered and off-the-cuff thought on my part. There's no good answer.

244 Kragar  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 4:12:33pm

re: #234 Stanley Sea for a while, till someone screws up

It's...BRACKET TIME!

ok

[]

245 Shvaughn  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 4:12:50pm

re: #235 Obdicut

Why?

Because the inherent inequalities in the military occupation of a country distort the justice system.

This soldier's crime was against the people of Afghanistan. Ideally, he should be tried by those people and not by his employers who occupy the nation of his victims.

246 Stanghazi  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 4:14:20pm

re: #242 HoosierHoops

oooh, and I want to ride along. Beautiful.

247 Shvaughn  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 4:14:26pm

re: #236 Obdicut

Afghanistan is really not a place you invade to take advantage of. They don't have anything, other than copious amounts of opium.

That doesn't mean that any invasion of Afghanistan is automatically an altruistic act done for the benefit of the entire world, though.

248 Sol Berdinowitz  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 4:14:48pm

re: #240 Shvaughn

I do not like the US presence in Afghanistan, but it is the lesser of several evils. It was home to terrorist training camps and as such staging basis for attacks on other nations. That was the basis for our invasion and ongoing occupation.

The USA is not doing an outstanding job there, but I do not see how they could do much better uneder the circumstances nor can I see a better alternative.

I would like us to leave the place stable enough to assure that it will not continue to be a home to international terror, but I do not see that coming for some time.

249 erik_t  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 4:14:50pm

re: #245 Shvaughn

This soldier's crime was against the people of Afghanistan. Ideally, he should be tried by those people and not by his employers who occupy the nation of his victims.

I think we all probably agree that this is the ideal. But the ideal posits an Afghan justice system that is free from fault or emotion or coercion, and that is not the case.

250 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 4:15:07pm

re: #240 Shvaughn

"Staging basis for attacks on the USA" is simply incorrect, and continuing to occupy Afghanistan is doing nothing to prevent them from being a source of terrorism anyway. If anything, it's making it easier for Afghans to shoot American soldiers.

You don't remember 2001, do you? Ralphieboy is correct to call Afghanistan an Al Qaeda staging base, because back then that's what it was. The terror organization was headquartered there and was welcomed by the Taliban government, who used Al Qaeda as a kind of Praetorian Guard to keep their own warlords in line.

251 Shvaughn  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 4:15:43pm

re: #249 erik_t

I think we all probably agree that this is the ideal. But the ideal posits an Afghan justice system that is free from fault or emotion or coercion, and that is not the case.

I'm just saying what the ideal is.

252 Shiplord Kirel  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 4:15:50pm

re: #226 Shvaughn

Your naivete has a quaintly charming appeal.

How's that pipeline coming along?

253 kirkspencer  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 4:15:57pm

re: #217 Shvaughn

It's easy for an American to have confidence in American justice. If you were an Afghan, would you have the same confidence in the U.S. justice system after the last 10 years?

It's 16 Afghans who were blown away by this criminal. It's their families who are calling for justice. How would you reassure them that the United States justice system will give it to them?

Point to Derrick Miller. (Sergeant Miller was convicted in July 2011 for a murder done in Afghanistan. Sentenced to life imprisonment.)

254 Obdicut  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 4:16:12pm

re: #245 Shvaughn

Because the inherent inequalities in the military occupation of a country distort the justice system.

In what way?

This soldier's crime was against the people of Afghanistan. Ideally, he should be tried by those people and not by his employers who occupy the nation of his victims.

Ideally, sure. But we're not in an ideal world. The question is which court can give the man the fairest trial.

He won't be tried by his 'employers'. He's not a contractor. He'll be tried in a military tribunal, with a hell of a lot of attention paid.

This is not like Mai Lai. There is not a general policy of killing citizens, there will not be a coverup of that policy.

255 Shvaughn  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 4:16:26pm

re: #250 Dark_Falcon

You don't remember 2001, do you? Ralphieboy is correct to call Afghanistan an Al Qaeda staging base, because back then that's what it was. The terror organization was headquartered there and was welcomed by the Taliban government, who used Al Qaeda as a kind of Praetorian Guard to keep their own warlords in line.

Actually, San Diego and Arizona were use as staging grounds for 9/11.

256 The Questionable Timing of a Flea  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 4:16:54pm

re: #236 Obdicut

Afghanistan is really not a place you invade to take advantage of. They don't have anything, other than copious amounts of opium.

Well, camel caravan routes through Kabul used to be a thing worth fighting for....

More abstractly, we did take advantage of Afghanistan by fetishizing its symbol value--benighted country that we'd free and civilize--while utterly ignoring the complexity of politics on the ground. Having achieved catharsis from "liberating" Afghanistan, we then started dumping resources into Iraq.

257 Alexzander  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 4:16:59pm

re: #232 Ministry of Fairness and Balance

big one, yes.

Excellent. I'm watching the 2004 documentary on him at the moment.

258 Shvaughn  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 4:17:06pm

re: #252 Winston Smith, Fox News Moderator

How's that pipeline coming along?

Pipeline? Sorry, I'm not sure what you're asking me about here.

259 Targetpractice  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 4:17:25pm

re: #241 Dark_Falcon

I don't, but right now they're too angry for us to be around. When someone is pissed off like they are, you're not going to be able to talk to them right away. One thing to do where possible would be to hold quick meetings to explain to local leaders that we need to step back for a short time till things cool off.

And I very much doubt that that's gonna go over well. They're going to want to know that this is a one-time deal, that the next time one of our own screws up again, that we won't just hide again. Because if every incident like this is going to be met with turtling within our own bases, then why are we there?

260 Shvaughn  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 4:18:34pm

re: #254 Obdicut

Ideally, sure. But we're not in an ideal world. The question is which court can give the man the fairest trial.

He won't be tried by his 'employers'. He's not a contractor. He'll be tried in a military tribunal, with a hell of a lot of attention paid.

This is not like Mai Lai. There is not a general policy of killing citizens, there will not be a coverup of that policy.

Well, I hope you're right.

261 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 4:18:38pm

re: #255 Shvaughn

You aren't going get it, so I'm not going to bother.

BBIAB

262 Sol Berdinowitz  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 4:19:04pm

re: #255 Shvaughn

Actually, San Diego and Arizona were use as staging grounds for 9/11.

Fortunately, we already have US military bases there to keep the natives quelled...

263 Obdicut  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 4:19:15pm

re: #247 Shvaughn

That doesn't mean that any invasion of Afghanistan is automatically an altruistic act done for the benefit of the entire world, though.

Nor did I say it was-- though again, we never really invaded them. We supported the anti-Taliban forces, got them to form a government, and are now there with the permission of that government.

The problem of Afghanistan goes far beyond our presence there, goes far beyond anything we can possibly fix or solve. It is poverty-stricken, has warlords in control of large swathes of it, an enormous drug trade, and intense religious fervor. I had hoped that good leaders for the Afghan people would emerge, but they haven't. I don't see any good path forward; I didn't see any good path for Afghanistan back when the Taliban was in control, either.

264 Michael McBacon  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 4:21:21pm

I wonder if these Foxers realize there are Afghani Christians too...

265 Achilles Tang  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 4:21:33pm

re: #236 Obdicut

Afghanistan is really not a place you invade to take advantage of. They don't have anything, other than copious amounts of opium.

They don't do anything is more accurate. They could be a wealthy country if they they were a country instead of a bunch of 14th century tribes.

Afghanistan actually has masses of valuable minerals, from copper to iron to rare earths and more, but mining is beyond their ability.

266 Shiplord Kirel  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 4:22:25pm

re: #264 Michael McBacon

I wonder if these Foxers realize there are Afghani Christians too...

They don't even know there are New York Christians.

267 Sol Berdinowitz  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 4:22:51pm

re: #265 Blue Spot Vlamingii Tang

They don't do anything is more accurate. They could be a wealthy country if they they were a country instead of a bunch of 14th century tribes.

Afghanistan actually has masses of valuable minerals, from copper to iron to rare earths and more, but mining is beyond their ability.

That is rather the point: they are too unstable to be economically viable, much less interesting to any occupying force.

268 Sol Berdinowitz  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 4:23:35pm

re: #264 Michael McBacon

I wonder if these Foxers realize there are Afghani Christians too...

There used to be a lot more Christians in Iraq until the Second Gulf War, now they are fleeing in droves...

269 Obdicut  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 4:24:22pm

re: #265 Blue Spot Vlamingii Tang

Yes, and if a frog had wingnuts it'd wear a tinfoil helmet. Those resources would take an enormous amount of capital investment, capital Afghanistan doesn't have, and capital that wouldn't be invested unless they had a stable government.

They could be wealthy if they were wealthy, is basically all you're saying.

270 Lidane  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 4:24:44pm

re: #263 Obdicut

The problem of Afghanistan goes far beyond our presence there, goes far beyond anything we can possibly fix or solve.

That's because Afghanistan has been a target for invasion, war, and armed conflict since Alexander the Great.

It's like trying to fix the problems of corruption, bribery, and graft in Mexico. It's been a part of the culture for so long there's simply nothing to be done about it at this point.

271 Killgore Trout  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 4:24:46pm

re: #263 Obdicut

Nor did I say it was-- though again, we never really invaded them. We supported the anti-Taliban forces, got them to form a government, and are now there with the permission of that government.

The problem of Afghanistan goes far beyond our presence there, goes far beyond anything we can possibly fix or solve. It is poverty-stricken, has warlords in control of large swathes of it, an enormous drug trade, and intense religious fervor. I had hoped that good leaders for the Afghan people would emerge, but they haven't. I don't see any good path forward; I didn't see any good path for Afghanistan back when the Taliban was in control, either.

Unfortunately I think the Pakistan problem needs to be "fixed" before Afghanistan has any hope of stability. It's a very big problem.

272 Targetpractice  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 4:25:07pm

re: #267 Ministry of Fairness and Balance

That is rather the point: they are too unstable to be economically viable, much less interesting to any occupying force.

There's no real way for the country to exploit the mineral wealth, because there will always be squabbling over who the wealth should go to. Between the warlords, the corrupt bureaucracy, the various foreign powers, and the terrorist groups who thrive off impoverished and ignorant masses, there's always going to be too much opposition to organizing a functioning economy around mining.

273 Decatur Deb  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 4:25:30pm

re: #245 Shvaughn

Because the inherent inequalities in the military occupation of a country distort the justice system.

This soldier's crime was against the people of Afghanistan. Ideally, he should be tried by those people and not by his employers who occupy the nation of his victims.

That implies the existence of a host nation justice system that is acceptable to our standards. Sixty years after WWII, we do not automatically give Germany and Japan jurisdiction over our forces under their SOFAs.

274 Achilles Tang  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 4:28:01pm

re: #269 Obdicut

Yes, and if a frog had wingnuts it'd wear a tinfoil helmet. Those resources would take an enormous amount of capital investment, capital Afghanistan doesn't have, and capital that wouldn't be invested unless they had a stable government.

They could be wealthy if they were wealthy, is basically all you're saying.

Not what I'm saying at all. The capital exists, if not from the Chinese, from us (actually the Chinese do have some attempts at doing that, but they too need as many security guards as miners).

They could be wealthy if they weren't so sorry ass primitive, is what I clearly said the first time.

275 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 4:28:52pm

re: #263 Obdicut

Nor did I say it was-- though again, we never really invaded them. We supported the anti-Taliban forces, got them to form a government, and are now there with the permission of that government.

The problem of Afghanistan goes far beyond our presence there, goes far beyond anything we can possibly fix or solve. It is poverty-stricken, has warlords in control of large swathes of it, an enormous drug trade, and intense religious fervor. I had hoped that good leaders for the Afghan people would emerge, but they haven't. I don't see any good path forward; I didn't see any good path for Afghanistan back when the Taliban was in control, either.


Here's a review of a very good documentary on the Battle for Marjah back in 2010
. This is an excerpt that that illustrates what you said:

“These people are not like Americans,” Corporal Hills says. (We are not given his first name.) “There’s no way you can trust them. They let the Taliban beat them, but when it comes to one of us saying the wrong phrase to any of these people, they lose their lid because we’re Americans and the Taliban are from their own tribe and ethnicity. It’s ridiculous.”

The Petraeus model of counterinsurgency worked fairly quickly in Iraq. It even worked in the city of Mosul, where Petraeus first tested it out while the rest of the country looked to be slipping away. But Afghanistan isn’t Iraq. Iraq is a modern society that has gone through hell and moved backwards. Afghanistan was never modern. It makes Iraq look like the gleaming sci-fi future by comparison. The bonds of tribe, ethnicity, and religion are much stronger in Afghanistan than anywhere in the Arab world, with the possible exception of Yemen. The Marines had to shrink their zone of control after failing to hold the periphery. Even standing up a local militia didn’t help much. Afghanistan frankly looks doomed at the end of The Battle for Marjah.

No one can know how this ends, but if the Taliban win, it won’t be because the Americans don’t know what they’re doing. I know how counterinsurgency works. I’ve seen it correctly applied in Iraq and I’ve written a book about it. The Marines did the right thing in Marjah. If they fail, it will be because Marjah belongs to Afghanistan.

276 Obdicut  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 4:29:08pm

re: #272 Targetpractice


Countries have pulled themselves out of ruin and devastation before. But it's certainly not going to happen overnight. It takes leaders, leaders from within that country, not from outside it.

277 Targetpractice  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 4:30:48pm

re: #276 Obdicut

Countries have pulled themselves out of ruin and devastation before. But it's certainly not going to happen overnight. It takes leaders, leaders from within that country, not from outside it.

And unfortunately, all the leaders within are either A) self-serving or B) rabidly anti-Western.

278 Achilles Tang  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 4:30:52pm

re: #245 Shvaughn

Because the inherent inequalities in the military occupation of a country distort the justice system.

This soldier's crime was against the people of Afghanistan. Ideally, he should be tried by those people and not by his employers who occupy the nation of his victims.

Rubbish. The occupiers are ultimately responsible for the security and the dispensation of justice. It is ridiculous to think one can occupy a country and then let the occupied choose when to prosecute the occupiers.

279 Obdicut  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 4:31:10pm

re: #274 Blue Spot Vlamingii Tang

As I said, the capital won't be invested in there unless there's a stable government.

They could be wealthy if they weren't so sorry ass primitive, is what I clearly said the first time.

Well, that's either a stupid or an assholic statement, take your pick. You can't simply choose to become uneducated, you can't choose to suddenly become westernized, you can't choose to suddenly adopt Enlightenment values. They didn't sign up for being 'primitive'.

280 Gepetto  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 4:34:06pm

re: #130 Dark_Falcon

I'd ask for thoughts on handing him over to the Afghans or quickly shooting him for this. I know that would violate his rights completely, but killing him quickly and publicly might actually help the situation. I don't like that option, though, and the US domestic blowback would be bad.

I agree. As far as his rights, overseas extrajudicial killings of US citizens have been validated just this week, no problems there.

281 Stanghazi  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 4:35:53pm

re: #265 Blue Spot Vlamingii Tang

They don't do anything is more accurate. They could be a wealthy country if they they were a country instead of a bunch of 14th century tribes.

Afghanistan actually has masses of valuable minerals, from copper to iron to rare earths and more, but mining is beyond their ability.

And the whole world view of this is sad. Very very sad.

282 Achilles Tang  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 4:40:11pm

re: #279 Obdicut

As I said, the capital won't be invested in there unless there's a stable government.

Well, that's either a stupid or an assholic statement, take your pick. You can't simply choose to become uneducated, you can't choose to suddenly become westernized, you can't choose to suddenly adopt Enlightenment values. They didn't sign up for being 'primitive'.

Here we go again. I suppose you are going to say they would be civilized if not for all those nasty foreigners that keep invading over the past thousand years or so./

Name a country that hasn't faced that in their history.

Their problem is that they don't have a national identity and the closest they have come to a leadership that would impose that recently is the Taliban, a primitive and degenerate theocracy with no interest in joining the 21st century.

283 Achilles Tang  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 4:42:59pm

re: #282 Blue Spot Vlamingii Tang

Hey O, you have the gift of gab. How about participating in the discussion instead of reverting to dingaling?

284 Obdicut  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 4:43:55pm

re: #282 Blue Spot Vlamingii Tang

Here we go again. I suppose you are going to say they would be civilized if not for all those nasty foreigners that keep invading over the past thousand years or so./

Nope.

Name a country that hasn't faced that in their history.

Er, Japan, for example. And a lot of places got invaded by people who then improved the conditions there. As you probably know. But even taking your point: you're talking about fucking history. it's not the people who are alive there now's fault that the history of the country turned out the way it did.

Their problem is that they don't have a national identity and the closest they have come to a leadership that would impose that recently is the Taliban, a primitive and degenerate theocracy with no interest in joining the 21st century.

True. So why do you get jollies out of saying that they're primitive and that they could be wealthy? They can't be wealthy. It's not an option. Pretending it is is stupid as shit.

285 Obdicut  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 4:44:29pm

re: #283 Blue Spot Vlamingii Tang

Hey O, you have the gift of gab. How about participating in the discussion instead of reverting to dingaling?

That's pretty stupid of you. You know I'm not shy about telling you about exactly how you're being an idiot; all you have to do is be patient.

286 Prideful, Arrogant Marriage Equality Advocate  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 4:47:29pm

What are your views on the areas of this country that are, for you, primitive. Like areas of the Appalacia?

287 Prideful, Arrogant Marriage Equality Advocate  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 4:48:32pm

OOpps that was directed towards Tang.

288 Achilles Tang  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 4:49:07pm

re: #284 Obdicut

True. So why do you get jollies out of saying that they're primitive and that they could be wealthy? They can't be wealthy. It's not an option. Pretending it is is stupid as shit.

Got your beanie insult cap on today, spouting all this stupid shit?

I think it is sad that a potentially wealthy country is still stuck in the 14th, or 10th century. I don't get jollies from it buddy.

They don't want to be wealthy. I suggest we leave them alone in their mountains and just bomb them now and then when they invite the likes of Al Q back.

289 Achilles Tang  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 4:50:40pm

re: #286 The Round Heeled Savage Cannibal Ghoul

What are your views on the areas of this country that are, for you, primitive. Like areas of the Appalacia?

Why don't you make a very modest effort to stay relevant if you want to play? I plan to retire in areas of the Appalachians. I sure as hell don't in Afghanistan.

290 Obdicut  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 4:50:51pm

re: #288 Blue Spot Vlamingii Tang

They don't want to be wealthy.

And you know this because..?

I suggest we leave them alone in their mountains and just bomb them now and then when they invite the likes of Al Q back.

And the children who grow up there, just fuck 'em, right? None of our responsibility, shouldn't bother anyone that they have to suffer that life, right?

291 Prideful, Arrogant Marriage Equality Advocate  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 4:51:01pm

re: #288 Blue Spot Vlamingii Tang

Every country is ptentially wealthy. How do all countries in the world become equally wealthy? Is that possible?

292 Prideful, Arrogant Marriage Equality Advocate  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 4:52:08pm

re: #289 Blue Spot Vlamingii Tang

LOL! Good god! I wasn't trying to insult you! Drink a beer dude!

293 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 4:53:57pm

re: #288 Blue Spot Vlamingii Tang

Got your beanie insult cap on today, spouting all this stupid shit?

I think it is sad that a potentially wealthy country is still stuck in the 14th, or 10th century. I don't get jollies from it buddy.

They don't want to be wealthy. I suggest we leave them alone in their mountains and just bomb them now and then when they invite the likes of Al Q back.

Because bombing didn't work that well back in the 90's. We'd fire two dozen cruise missiles and not make much of an impact because the people who planned the attacks knew we'd do that and had already gone into hiding. That was actually a point George W. Bush used to criticize Bill Clinton (and by extension Al Gore): "I am not going to use a $2,000,000 missile to blow up an empty $10 tent and hit a camel in the butt".

294 Achilles Tang  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 4:56:50pm

re: #290 Obdicut

And you know this because..?

In the broad picture individuals share responsibility for the society. Collectively they have what they choose to have, since they could clearly have more according to our standards. Their choice, unless you wish to say it is Allah's.

And the children who grow up there, just fuck 'em, right? None of our responsibility, shouldn't bother anyone that they have to suffer that life, right?

It bothers me.

What solution do you offer? Sounds like indefinite occupation to me, even though I doubt that is what you mean. If you think another year or two of our resources and lives will change a theocratic culture; I don't.

295 Achilles Tang  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 4:59:49pm

re: #293 Dark_Falcon

Because bombing didn't work that well back in the 90's. We'd fire two dozen cruise missiles and not make much of an impact because the people who planned the attacks knew we'd do that and had already gone into hiding. That was actually a point George W. Bush used to criticize Bill Clinton (and by extension Al Gore): "I am not going to use a $2,000,000 missile to blow up an empty $10 tent and hit a camel in the butt".

Yes I know; so let's spend a trillion dollars and a thousand lives instead and make a futile attempt to civilize them.//

If you think I have the answers; don't. Neither have I heard any other answers.

296 Achilles Tang  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 5:01:31pm

re: #292 The Round Heeled Savage Cannibal Ghoul

LOL! Good god! I wasn't trying to insult you! Drink a beer dude!

You should know better than to jump in the middle of a tiff involving the big O.

297 Shvaughn  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 5:02:16pm
The U.S. could “win this thing. We can get it right,” said Sen. Lindsey Graham (R-S.C.) on ABC’s “This Week.” “The surge of forces has really put the Taliban on the defensive,” he said.

WINNING!

source

298 Obdicut  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 5:05:03pm

re: #294 Blue Spot Vlamingii Tang

In the broad picture individuals share responsibility for the society.

Not at all true. They share responsibily in proportion to how much power they have to affect the society.

Collectively they have what they choose to have, since they could clearly have more according to our standards.

That is so utterly fatuous. Some dude decides to speak up in favor of democracy, he gets shot in the face by a warlord's minion. He chose to have different. The result was not having more, it was being shot in the face.

What solution do you offer? Sounds like indefinite occupation to me, even though I doubt that is what you mean. If you think another year or two of our resources and lives will change a theocratic culture; I don't.

As I said, the change has to come from within. And not bombing them would help. Getting NGOs on the ground, the Red Crescent and other organizations like that. Progress has to be slow and steady. But not pretending that they're choosing to live this way is also part of it.

299 Prideful, Arrogant Marriage Equality Advocate  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 5:09:17pm

re: #296 Blue Spot Vlamingii Tang

I should also know better to jump in the middle of a tiff between big O and an Ass hat with primitive manners.

300 b_Snark  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 5:09:26pm

re: #216 HoosierHoops

Hi You..So Saturday morning we are eating beakfast and she starts talking about some book she is reading ( I try not to glaze over ) I's about a Character Called Killgore Trout..I almost choked on my eggs laughing..i asked what the deal was with KT. So I kind of know the back story KT..
Things are going great..We are going out of town in 2 weeks for the weekend.Kind of a big step..

Make sure she reads "Venus on the Half Shell" by Kilgore Trout.

301 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 5:11:10pm

re: #298 Obdicut

Not at all true. They share responsibily in proportion to how much power they have to affect the society.

That is so utterly fatuous. Some dude decides to speak up in favor of democracy, he gets shot in the face by a warlord's minion. He chose to have different. The result was not having more, it was being shot in the face.

As I said, the change has to come from within. And not bombing them would help. Getting NGOs on the ground, the Red Crescent and other organizations like that. Progress has to be slow and steady. But not pretending that they're choosing to live this way is also part of it.

But they do make the choice not to improve things when they choose to riot or to assist in stealing aid monies. They aren't directly choosing to continue to be poor in doing so, but they are choosing to maintain the culture of violence and poverty that keeps them poor.

302 Achilles Tang  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 5:11:27pm

re: #298 Obdicut

But not pretending that they're choosing to live this way is also part of it.

You assume a lot. They are living the way they have always lived for many centuries. If it's not their choice It must be Allah's. It sure as hell isn't ours.

303 b_Snark  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 5:13:40pm

re: #242 HoosierHoops

I really got so lucky to meet and get to know her..
Friday night with dinner and some dancing and time alone..It was fun..
The next thing you know you are cooking eggs in your underwear for breakfast and listening to the latest book she has read..Want more coffee dear? Listen and learn some thing Hoosier! Thank Gawd she loves to play golf.I'm falling for her

You aren't falling for her, you've already fallen. You're in love dude, admit it.

304 Achilles Tang  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 5:15:09pm

re: #299 The Round Heeled Savage Cannibal Ghoul

I should also know better to jump in the middle of a tiff between big O and an Ass hat with primitive manners.

You tried to change the subject. If you think saying

Why don't you make a very modest effort to stay relevant if you want to play?

amounts to "ass hat" in your book, then I'll reserve my own comment, but imagine what you will; you may be right.

305 Obdicut  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 5:15:24pm

re: #301 Dark_Falcon

But they do make the choice not to improve things when they choose to riot or to assist in stealing aid monies.

Depends on why they're rioting-- and it's mostly those warlords who are stealing the aid monies.

They aren't directly choosing to continue to be poor in doing so, but they are choosing to maintain the culture of violence and poverty that keeps them poor.

Both of you seem to be pretending that warlords aren't in control of most areas in Afghanistan.

306 Obdicut  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 5:16:09pm

re: #304 Blue Spot Vlamingii Tang

Her question was perfectly apt. If someone grows up under-educated, ignorant, and illiterate in the US, are they 'choosing' to be economically deprived?

307 Obdicut  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 5:16:57pm

re: #302 Blue Spot Vlamingii Tang

You assume a lot. They are living the way they have always lived for many centuries. If it's not their choice It must be Allah's. It sure as hell isn't ours.

It's not anyone's fucking choice. Nobody gets to make that decision. It's way more complicated than that, and pretending otherwise is just goddamn odious.

308 Stanghazi  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 5:19:23pm

re: #286 The Round Heeled Savage Cannibal Ghoul

"Round Heeled" When Rush first said it to describe women, or Sandra F. I looked it up as did every other female aged

309 Achilles Tang  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 5:21:03pm

re: #306 Obdicut

Her question was perfectly apt. If someone grows up under-educated, ignorant, and illiterate in the US, are they 'choosing' to be economically deprived?

Why is this so hard to understand? I am blaming their culture which is designed to keep them that way (with a little help from their religion/). Imagining "someone" being blamed is silly.

310 Achilles Tang  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 5:22:40pm

re: #307 Obdicut

It's not anyone's fucking choice. Nobody gets to make that decision. It's way more complicated than that, and pretending otherwise is just goddamn odious.

I've only had two beers so far. What have you had?

I find your language tiresome. Pick another fight somewhere.

311 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 5:23:03pm

re: #305 Obdicut

Depends on why they're rioting-- and it's mostly those warlords who are stealing the aid monies.

Both of you seem to be pretending that warlords aren't in control of most areas in Afghanistan.

I'm not pretending any such thing, but I will note that such things happen even in areas under the control of the central government.

Theft has actually been less prevalent in Mazar-e-Shreif, even while Rashid Dustum was clearly the warlord of the city. But he isn't Pashtun and had some experience with the benefits roads and railroads can bring an area, giving him reason not to steal but rather to gain by encouraging commerce.

312 Obdicut  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 5:25:03pm

re: #309 Blue Spot Vlamingii Tang

Why is this so hard to understand? I am blaming their culture which is designed to keep them that way (with a little help from their religion/). Imagining "someone" being blamed is silly.

No, you blamed them, the people repeatedly. And it's also not the fault of the 'culture'. That's also a simplistic and stupid view. There are a lot of dudes there with temporal power-- the warlords-- who have vested interest in keeping things the way they are. You keep ignoring that.

Don't know why.

313 Obdicut  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 5:25:48pm

re: #310 Blue Spot Vlamingii Tang

Nothing. I'm sick as hell of group blame. It's one of the stupidest, most obviously idiotic points of view, and it's sickening when an otherwise intelligent person decides to huff it.

314 b_Snark  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 5:28:01pm

re: #291 The Round Heeled Savage Cannibal Ghoul

Every country is ptentially wealthy. How do all countries in the world become equally wealthy? Is that possible?

It's not possible because the wealth of a country is as much chance as intent. eg: The price of oil and potash hits the roof and parts of Canada hit the jackpot. The US dollar goes sky high compared to Canada and China, and the manufacturers and exporting provinces in Canada make it big.

315 Obdicut  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 5:28:20pm

re: #311 Dark_Falcon

I'm not pretending any such thing, but I will note that such things happen even in areas under the control of the central government.

And the central government is corrupt and thuggish as well. Karzai may not be a warlord, but he's not an enlightened leader, either.

I prefer to blame those in power for the way things are in a country. Because, you know, they have the actual power.

316 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 5:29:58pm

re: #315 Obdicut

And the central government is corrupt and thuggish as well. Karzai may not be a warlord, but he's not an enlightened leader, either.

I prefer to blame those in power for the way things are in a country. Because, you know, they have the actual power.

So do I. I'm just saying that those leaders spring from a culture and its that culture that is the biggest thing holding Afghanistan down.

317 Obdicut  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 5:34:40pm

re: #316 Dark_Falcon

So do I. I'm just saying that those leaders spring from a culture and its that culture that is the biggest thing holding Afghanistan down.

I have no idea what you mean by the leaders springing from the culture.

318 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 6:12:41pm

re: #178 Obdicut

People deserve fair trials. It's important to know whether or not he'd get a fair trial in Afghanistan. I really doubt he would, given the general shambles and corruption in the government there.

Why?

How many people were fairly punished for the Haditha massacre? For the My Lai massacre?

319 Obdicut  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 6:24:19pm

re: #318 Martryr Cookie Monster

How many people were fairly punished for the Haditha massacre? For the My Lai massacre?

Asking who was fairly punished is very different than asking where the fairest trial can occur, isn't it?

My Lai was a hell of a long time ago. It doesn't have that much bearing.

Haditha was a shambles, completely fumbled by the prosecution. They granted immunity to nearly everyone and got very little testimony out of it of any value.

Do you think the prosecutors intended it to go that way?

320 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 6:36:54pm

re: #319 Obdicut

Oh, I'm not suggesting he should be given up to the Afghani authorities. And the US trial maybe somewhat "fairer" in procedural aspects than the Afghani trial.

The point is that the US record in regard to punishing the military massacre perpetrators shows that the US trials aren't fair in absolute terms. Not "absolutely fair" - I don't mean some ideal. Common sense not fair. The perpetrators still walk basically unpunished. My Lai may have happened decades ago, but it's a datapoint, along with Haditha.

Whether there is intent that uses the crappy system or whether the system is crappy by itself (how can immunities be a good idea, rather than something that coerces false testimony or let certain people walk scot free?), or whether it is crappy due to incompetent people who use the system, or a combination of these factors, this still amounts to system that has produced unfair trials of massacre perpetrators against foreign civilians.

If he gets life one way or another (whether it be prison or psychatric institution), I will say that the times are changing in this respect.

321 Obdicut  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 6:45:43pm

re: #320 Martryr Cookie Monster

The point is that the US record in regard to punishing the military massacre perpetrators shows that the US trials aren't fair in absolute terms

There are other soldiers who have committed murder and other crimes that have been punished, though.

Common sense not fair. The perpetrators still walk basically unpunished. My Lai may have happened decades ago, but it's a datapoint, along with Haditha.

But so are other trials, right?

or whether it is crappy due to incompetent people who use the system, or a combination of these factors, this still amounts to system that has produced unfair trials of massacre perpetrators against foreign civilians.

It's also convicted people for the murder of civilians, though.

If he gets life one way or another (whether it be prison or psychatric institution), I will say that the times are changing in this respect.

This disturbs me, coming from you. I've never seen you prejudge someone to that extent before. There are possibilities that, while they wouldn't exonerate him, would place this in an entirely different context. Like if he had been given heavy amounts of amphetamines, as has happened in the US army before, causing a psychotic break.

322 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 7:02:39pm

re: #321 Obdicut

There are other soldiers who have committed murder and other crimes that have been punished, though.
But so are other trials, right?
It's also convicted people for the murder of civilians, though.

We're talking about massacres. A very specific and most "visible" type of crime where we should expect most zeal in trying to punish the perpetrators. The US record is bad in this regard. It has not produced fair trials in this regard. I don't see how other cases or trials show that this is not so.

This disturbs me, coming from you. I've never seen you prejudge someone to that extent before. There are possibilities that, while they wouldn't exonerate him, would place this in an entirely different context. Like if he had been given heavy amounts of amphetamines, as has happened in the US army before, causing a psychotic break.

Obviously, I don't mean he should be found guilty if such circumstances are uncovered.

323 Obdicut  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 7:07:18pm

re: #322 Martryr Cookie Monster

We're talking about massacres. A very specific and most "visible" type of crime where we should expect most zeal in trying to punish the perpetrators.

To me, that seems like you're saying that there should be weight in the direction of the prosecution, and against the defense. And this is very different-- on the face of it-- from the other massacres, in that it appears (though it'll be terrible if this is contradicted) to have just been one person who committed the crime.

We're talking about massacres. A very specific and most "visible" type of crime where we should expect most zeal in trying to punish the perpetrators.

The US record is bad in this regard. It has not produced fair trials in this regard. I don't see how other cases or trials show that this is not so.

You seem to be judging the fairness of the trial by the results of the trial. I'd say the US showed itself to be unfair in the Mai Lai trial, but in the Haditha trial, to have just fucked it all up.

Obviously, I don't mean he should be found guilty if such circumstances are uncovered.

I'm glad to hear that. But again, if we're talking about this specific case, the only decision to be made is where the fair-er trial will occur. Even with the problems you've cited, do you think the Afghan trial would be more fair?

324 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 7:24:09pm

re: #323 Obdicut

I'm judging the fairness of the system in regard to such trials by the summary outcome of such trials, yes - to me this indicates that the system is broken. Whether this produces more or less fair trials in other venues is a different question.

To give an illustration, white juries in the South may have been entirely fair in some cases, and entirely biased when it came to blacks. If I see a chain of trials where a lot (though may be not all) of alleged criminals committing crimes against blacks are exonerated, I think there's something fishy there.

And I've also already answered on the Afghani trials, so no point in asking again. But to repeat, no, I'm not suggesting giving him up to Afghanis. Obviously, their trial has many more chances to be unfair than the US trial.

325 Amory Blaine  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 7:26:08pm

I'm not seeing the comment area for the FOX news article.

326 Obdicut  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 7:29:55pm

re: #324 Martryr Cookie Monster

I'm judging the fairness of the system in regard to such trials by the summary outcome of such trials, yes - to me this indicates that the system is broken. Whether this produces more or less fair trials in other venues is a different question.

I don't think there's enough data points to draw such a conclusion.

To give an illustration, white juries in the South may have been entirely fair in some cases, and entirely biased when it came to blacks. If I see a chain of trials where a lot (though may be not all) of alleged criminals committing crimes against blacks are exonerated, I think there's something fishy there.

A much, much broader set of data points.

And I've also already answered on the Afghani trials, so no point in asking again. But to repeat, no, I'm not suggesting giving him up to Afghanis. Obviously, their trial has many more chances to be unfair than the US trial.

I really doubt that this case will wind up with anything less than a conviction; cynically, this is because it doesn't appear to involve any higher-ups or any orders, just one dude flipping out.

327 Obdicut  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 7:35:44pm

re: #326 Obdicut

In other words, if you're dubious about the US record on massacres and coverups, don't let this case reassure you.

Heh.

328 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 7:38:55pm

re: #327 Obdicut

In other words, if you're dubious about the US record on massacres and coverups, don't let this case reassure you.

Heh.

You're just a little ray of sunshine, aren't you ;)

329 Touchstone  Sun, Mar 11, 2012 11:10:21pm

Just to catalog a couple more examples of the insanity (will probably get cleaned up, later):

to_so_few 11 hours ago in reply to wilkins47
it is the treasonous obama that is the cause of this massacre. had he not cowtowed to the taliban and al-quida and every other muzlim on the planet, it is most probable this incident would not have taken place. too bad he wasn't in one of the homes.
show more show less

3 people liked this.

Read more: [Link: www.foxnews.com...]

and

N Lee 12 hours ago in reply to anti_dem
Can't blame him ... too bad Obama wasn't there to add to the pile ...

Read more: [Link: www.foxnews.com...]

Oy. I've been monitoring the rise of right wing crazy since the Palin nomination, but I'm still surprised to see this kind of stuff, and there's a LOT more just in that comment stream.

-TS

330 [deleted]  Mon, Mar 12, 2012 11:00:14am
331 Charles Johnson  Mon, Mar 12, 2012 11:13:22am

Bye now!


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Don't mind your make-up, you'd better make your mind up.