Opponents of ‘Stand Your Ground’ Predicted Racially Motivated Killings

And the main Republican sponsor of the bill is a neo-Confederate
US News • Views: 32,853

The more I learn about Florida’s “Stand Your Ground” law, the worse it looks: Opponents of Florida’s 2005 ‘Stand Your Ground’ Law Predicted ‘Racially Motivated Killings’.

Rep. Dennis BaxleySeven years ago, opponents of the “Stand Your Ground” legislation predicted it could lead to racially motivated killings. From Reuters, April 2005:

“For a House that talks about the culture of life it’s ironic that we would be devaluing life in this bill,” said Democratic state Rep. Dan Gelber of Miami Beach. “That’s exactly what we’re doing.” […]

Critics say the measure could lead to racially motivated killings and promote deadly escalations of arguments.

“All this bill will do is sell more guns and possibly turn Florida into the OK Corral,” said Democratic state Rep. Irv Slosberg of Boca Raton.

These objections, apparently, did not persuade Rep. Dennis Baxley, the bill’s chief sponsor and someone who hasn’t show a great deal of empathy for racial sensitivities in the past.

Baxley is a member of the Sons of Confederate Veterans and has advocated for the production of a Florida license plate honoring “Confederate Heritage.” He also argued against removing a racial slur from the Florida state song.

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356 comments
1 Targetpractice  Wed, Mar 21, 2012 9:37:32pm

I get the racial aspects of this case, but still believe that they should be secondary to the reality that this law has made murder legal, so long as you can think of a good enough lie to claim "self-defense" and the only other witness is dead.

2 William Barnett-Lewis  Wed, Mar 21, 2012 9:39:12pm

The problem is, with guns in America, anyone can find anyone saying anything.

The real questions I have to ask is this - is self defense a right or not? If it is, how far can an individual go? Until this is clear we can not begin to debate the rest of the questions.

The old saying is that my right to swing my fist ends where it would intersect with your nose. How do we apply that idea to these circumstances?

3 MittDoesNotCompute  Wed, Mar 21, 2012 9:39:45pm

G-d, I hope this Baxley character gets drawn into this whole shitstorm, because it sounds like he knew incidents like this would happen and pressed the bill anyway.

Of course, he's not the only FL legislator who needs to have their balls in a sling over this tragic mess and Jeb Bush, as the governor who signed this horrible law into effect, needs to get a lot of heat over this too.

4 jaunte  Wed, Mar 21, 2012 9:40:25pm

Editorial: Florida needs to sing a new song

Commenting on the racial aspects of "Old Folks At Home," Foster biographer Ken Emerson told the Tribune, "The racial complexity and ambiguity is tremendous. But it's part of American history. American history is awkward and embarrassing and complex. It has racist aspects to it, and so does American history."

As far as Rep. Dennis Baxley, R-Ocala, is concerned, it's wrong to "expunge our past." Baxley told The Florida Times-Union, "I don't pretend that the past was all beautiful and wonderful. I'm sure it was painful for some people, but we're in a multicultural area and everyone's culture is celebrated but mine."

I don't know, I think there's plenty of celebration of entitled assholes.

5 MittDoesNotCompute  Wed, Mar 21, 2012 9:43:06pm

re: #4 jaunte

Editorial: Florida needs to sing a new song

I don't know, I think there's plenty of celebration of entitled assholes.

Baxley's a shithead.

6 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Wed, Mar 21, 2012 9:43:27pm

re: #3 talon_262

I haven't been following this story as closely as most people here, but from what I have gathered, it seems the LEOs on scene need to be taking the most heat (of any official) for not doing their fucking job right.

That is, if what I have gathered is correct.

7 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Mar 21, 2012 9:43:48pm
“All this bill will do is sell more guns"

fuck the NRA

8 MittDoesNotCompute  Wed, Mar 21, 2012 9:47:02pm

re: #6 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks

I haven't been following this story as closely as most people here, but from what I have gathered, it seems the LEOs on scene need to be taking the most heat (of any official) for not doing their fucking job right.

That is, if what I have gathered is correct.

As well they should; the DoJ needs to come down hard on the Sanford PD. Their police chief and the responding officers need to get their walking papers over this.

That said, the politicians (those currently in office, such as Baxley, and those out of office, such as Jeb Bush) who had a hand in enacting this POS law also deserve to be tarred and feathered over this (figuratively, of course).

9 BryanS  Wed, Mar 21, 2012 9:49:06pm

re: #2 William Barnett-Lewis

The problem is, with guns in America, anyone can find anyone saying anything.

The real questions I have to ask is this - is self defense a right or not? If it is, how far can an individual go? Until this is clear we can not begin to debate the rest of the questions.

The old saying is that my right to swing my fist ends where it would intersect with your nose. How do we apply that idea to these circumstances?

How far can an individual go? The answer should be fairly simple in principle--there should be a reasonable person standard for asserting a right to defend against a threat, and the threat should be of an immediate nature that would not allow for calling on the intervention of police to protect against the threat.

10 BryanS  Wed, Mar 21, 2012 9:51:03pm

re: #8 talon_262

As well they should...the DoJ needs to come down hard on the Sanford PD and their police chief and the responding officers need to get their walking papers over this.

That said, the politicians (those currently in office, such as Baxley, and those out of office, such as Jeb Bush) who had a hand in enacting this POS law also deserve to be tarred and feathered over this (figuratively, of course).

Figuratively, of course. Because under this ridiculous law, they may murder you out of fear of being tarred and feathered. That is sad.

11 BeenHereAwhile  Wed, Mar 21, 2012 9:51:26pm

All this law does is codify what was generally accepted practice in the State of Florida before passage of the civil rights act.

12 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Mar 21, 2012 9:51:55pm

re: #11 BeenHereAwhile

All this law does is codify what was generally accepted practice in the State of Florida before passage of the civil rights act.

EXACTLY

13 William Barnett-Lewis  Wed, Mar 21, 2012 9:58:01pm

re: #9 BryanS

How far can an individual go? The answer should be fairly simple in principle--there should be a reasonable person standard for asserting a right to defend against a threat, and the threat should be of an immediate nature that would not allow for calling on the intervention of police to protect against the threat.

Really? Even though the SCOTUS upheld, in Bowers v. DeVito, that "...there is no constitutional right to be protected by the state against being murdered."

Or the case recently where a woman was on the phone to 911 for over 20 minutes (no cops in sight) when the guy started breaking through her door? If she hadn't been armed, she and her children would be dead.

When your child - not you, not even your wife - when your baby's life is on the line and seconds count, do you really want to have to wait for the police to finally get there?

Please always remember this - a gun incident is never as pretty and easy as either the NRA or the Brady groups would have you believe.

Hard cases make bad law. $5 will get you $20 that still more bad law comes from good intentions caused by this.

14 William Barnett-Lewis  Wed, Mar 21, 2012 10:01:33pm

One more tidbit from "Unforgiven":

Will Munny: It's a hell of a thing, killing a man. Take away all he's got and all he's ever gonna have.
The Schofield Kid: Yeah, well, I guess they had it coming.
Will Munny: We all got it coming, kid.

15 Nick Schroeder  Wed, Mar 21, 2012 10:03:07pm

I don't completely disagree with the sentiment that is sold when these horrible laws are passed. If someone breaks into my home and attempts to assault me, I should be able to defend myself without having to worry if my actions will send the rest of my life into a spiral of litigation and subsequent financial ruin.

That being said, only a homicidal maniac would actually use this law as a justification to patrol the streets killing people on sight. Hell, even in a worst-case scenario where someone broke in and attempted an assault, chasing people down and murdering them once they've started to flee is indicative of homicidal tendencies.

These laws need to be more clear in defining who the aggressor is, and they most certainly should not apply to public property. You shouldn't be allowed to murder someone over a disagreement.

But hey, at least our beaches are nice. :/

16 BryanS  Wed, Mar 21, 2012 10:06:07pm

re: #13 William Barnett-Lewis

Really? Even though the SCOTUS upheld, in Bowers v. DeVito, that "...there is no constitutional right to be protected by the state against being murdered."

Or the case recently where a woman was on the phone to 911 for over 20 minutes (no cops in sight) when the guy started breaking through her door? If she hadn't been armed, she and her children would be dead.

When your child - not you, not even your wife - when your baby's life is on the line and seconds count, do you really want to have to wait for the police to finally get there?

Please always remember this - a gun incident is never as pretty and easy as either the NRA or the Brady groups would have you believe.

Hard cases make bad law. $5 will get you $20 that still more bad law comes from good intentions caused by this.

Your examples are not inconsistent with the standard I suggested--all your examples are of situations where the police could not intervene.

17 Ming  Wed, Mar 21, 2012 10:08:53pm

There are many parts of the United States that are quite multi-racial: plenty of Asians, African Americans, Caucasians, Indians and Middle Easterners. Southern California and Hawaii are two such areas that I know well. I'm sure that a large percentage of Americans, maybe even a majority, live in such areas, where no single race is the majority.

In these multi-racial areas, anyone, from ANY race, could be another Trayvon Martin.

18 SidewaysQuark  Wed, Mar 21, 2012 10:12:52pm

This jerk didn't "stand his ground", he expanded his ground to chase down and gun down an innocent kid. Eff him.

Awaiting new info to change my bias, but not expecting it.

19 The Ghost of a Flea  Wed, Mar 21, 2012 10:13:03pm

re: #2 William Barnett-Lewis

The problem is, with guns in America, anyone can find anyone saying anything.

The real questions I have to ask is this - is self defense a right or not? If it is, how far can an individual go? Until this is clear we can not begin to debate the rest of the questions.

The old saying is that my right to swing my fist ends where it would intersect with your nose. How do we apply that idea to these circumstances?

I'm going to paraphrase something that I posted last night.

"Stand Your Ground" laws depend upon the standard of "reasonable belief" that you're being threatened.

This is country where race and class issues have for two-plus centuries incorporated narratives about who is violent and dangerous. People's "reasonable beliefs" about threat are not objective, and often encode deep-seated prejudices. Already in the Martin shooting we can see defenders of Zimmerman, the shooter, blame the victim and imply that his age, blackness, and "being not in his own neighborhood" make him suspect and thus a justifiable target.

The issue isn't just racism--though racism is a big part. "Stand Your Ground" favors invocation of privilege on the part of the shooter and penalizes the shot for any outlier, non-normative characteristics that make them threatening...not just physically....

20 SidewaysQuark  Wed, Mar 21, 2012 10:14:36pm

re: #15 Nick Schroeder

I don't completely disagree with the sentiment that is sold when these horrible laws are passed. If someone breaks into my home and attempts to assault me, I should be able to defend myself without having to worry if my actions will send the rest of my life into a spiral of litigation and subsequent financial ruin.

100% agreed, when it comes to an unwelcomed obvious aggressor in your home.

21 goddamnedfrank  Wed, Mar 21, 2012 10:19:33pm

re: #17 Ming

There are many parts of the United States that are quite multi-racial: plenty of Asians, African Americans, Caucasians, Indians and Middle Easterners. Southern California and Hawaii are two such areas that I know well. I'm sure that a large percentage of Americans, maybe even a majority, live in such areas, where no single race is the majority.

In these multi-racial areas, anyone, from ANY race, could be another Trayvon Martin.

Not really, no. The police response would have been different. This country has a long established history of dehumanizing blacks, that community diversity hasn't erased and can't erase until institutions like the local police decide on their own that every homicide has equal value.

22 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Mar 21, 2012 10:21:26pm

re: #21 goddamnedfrank

Not really, no. The police response would have been different. This country has a long established history of dehumanizing blacks, that community diversity hasn't erased and can't erase until institutions like the local police decide on their own that every homicide has equal value.

missing white girl! all points bulletin!

23 MittDoesNotCompute  Wed, Mar 21, 2012 10:23:15pm

re: #22 windupbird is in the gravity well

missing white girl! all points bulletin!

Don't forget about twits in the media that perpetuate this shit, like Nancy Grace. I soooo can't stand her or her routine....

24 Mocking Jay  Wed, Mar 21, 2012 10:24:42pm

re: #15 Nick Schroeder

I don't completely disagree with the sentiment that is sold when these horrible laws are passed. If someone breaks into my home and attempts to assault me, I should be able to defend myself without having to worry if my actions will send the rest of my life into a spiral of litigation and subsequent financial ruin.

That being said, only a homicidal maniac would actually use this law as a justification to patrol the streets killing people on sight. Hell, even in a worst-case scenario where someone broke in and attempted an assault, chasing people down and murdering them once they've started to flee is indicative of homicidal tendencies.

These laws need to be more clear in defining who the aggressor is, and they most certainly should not apply to public property. You shouldn't be allowed to murder someone over a disagreement.

But hey, at least our beaches are nice. :/

That's already covered. The Castle Doctrine, as I understand, allows you to use lethal force in your own home. There's nowhere to retreat to.

25 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Wed, Mar 21, 2012 10:25:03pm

re: #20 SidewaysQuark

100% agreed, when it comes to an unwelcomed obvious aggressor in your home.

Though I do not see this as being the case in this particular story, there are a variety of circumstances where force, perhaps even the lethal kind, in the act of self defense is necessary outside your home.

Rape might be one of those circumstances.

26 Ming  Wed, Mar 21, 2012 10:25:34pm

re: #1 Targetpractice

I get the racial aspects of this case, but still believe that they should be secondary to the reality that this law has made murder legal, so long as you can think of a good enough lie to claim "self-defense" and the only other witness is dead.

The discussion about self-defense laws is interesting in itself, but it's also a distraction from this tragic case.

The real problem is what Targetpractice says above. Until I heard about this case, the police would have been the last people in the world I would have expected to look the other way, when confronted with murder. The police didn't even bother to run a background check on George Zimmerman before they let him go.

Until this week, if I heard the phrase "to protect and serve white people", I would have considered it insane left-wing hyperbole. Now, as the tragedy of Trayvon pulls at my heartstrings, there's also the nagging incredulity that for some police departments, apparently "to protect and serve white people" is not far from the truth.

I'm not African American. But neither am I a blue-eyed white Christian. This may be the first time in my entire life that I can relate, if only a little, to the feeling that there are many places in America that it's not safe for me to visit.

27 engineer cat  Wed, Mar 21, 2012 10:27:16pm

Strange Sounds in Clintonville, WI Spread to Montello (Video)
March 21, 2012 09:50 PM EDT
comments: 4

The strange sounds heard over three straight nights in Clintonville, Wisconsin, have now been reported 70 miles to the south in Montello. What are they?

Also, officials in Montello are reporting an unidentifiable slimy sludge has invaded the waste water system, never seen before. Can it have something to do with the weird booming noises residents of both towns are reporting?

In Clintonville this evening, a town meeting is being held with city officials doing their best to answer questions and allay fears.

But, they admit, so far they have no explanation for the mysterious, thunderous booms shaking the ground in both far-flung towns.

Residents are bracing for another sleepless night, even for those not in the affected areas, because of the unease and fear this phenomenon is causing.

[Link: news.gather.com...]

in a rational universe, this would be the start of a cheezy 1950s sci-fi movie...

28 Lidane  Wed, Mar 21, 2012 10:28:51pm

re: #18 SidewaysQuark

This jerk didn't "stand his ground", he expanded his ground to chase down and gun down an innocent kid. Eff him.

Yeah, this.

Also, screw the Sanford PD for totally botching this investigation. The guy fired his weapon. There was a dead body on the ground. They didn't test the guy for drugs or alcohol. Took his bullshit story at face value and let him go. Now, this crazed Dirty Harry wannabe with a cop fetish will likely get away with murder.

29 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Mar 21, 2012 10:29:20pm

re: #23 talon_262

Don't forget about twits in the media that perpetuate this shit, like Nancy Grace. I sooo can't stand her or her routine...

Oh, she's morton downey jr. in a dress, just a fetid, worthless humanoid

30 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Mar 21, 2012 10:29:57pm

re: #26 Ming

Joe Arpaio is a real sheriff, after all!

31 Mocking Jay  Wed, Mar 21, 2012 10:30:26pm

re: #26 Ming

The discussion about self-defense laws is interesting in itself, but it's also a distraction from this tragic case.

The real problem is what Targetpractice says above. Until I heard about this case, the police would have been the last people in the world I would have expected to look the other way, when confronted with murder. The police didn't even bother to run a background check on George Zimmerman before they let him go.

Until this week, if I heard the phrase "to protect and serve white people", I would have considered it insane left-wing hyperbole. Now, as the tragedy of Trayvon pulls at my heartstrings, there's also the nagging incredulity that for some police departments, apparently "to protect and serve white people" is not far from the truth.

I'm not African American. But neither am I a blue-eyed white Christian. This may be the first time in my entire life that I can relate, if only a little, to the feeling that there are many places in America that it's not safe for me to visit.

Sometimes I have to remind myself that there are people who still think "Driving While Black" is a myth, made up by people trying to play the victim. I'm whitey white-bread, but I live in a highly mixed area, and I can attest that profiling is alive and well in this 21st century.

32 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Wed, Mar 21, 2012 10:30:37pm

re: #26 Ming

I'm not African American. But neither am I a blue-eyed white Christian.

Excepting the Christian part, Zimmerman doesn't appear to be either as well. But that is hardly the point.

I think the man may have been off his nut. That does not exclude any possible ethnic prejudices, either.

33 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Mar 21, 2012 10:32:02pm

re: #28 Lidane

Yeah, this.

Also, screw the Sanford PD for totally botching this investigation. The guy fired his weapon. There was a dead body on the ground. They didn't test the guy for drugs or alcohol. Took his bullshit story at face value and let him go. Now, this crazed Dirty Harry wannabe with a cop fetish will likely get away with murder.

I don't think they botched it, botched implies they made a mistake

this was deliberate, they wantonly lied and obfusctated facts in the investigation

At least the hammer's coming down on the police chief, probably the only justice we'll see

34 Ming  Wed, Mar 21, 2012 10:33:43pm

re: #21 goddamnedfrank

Not really, no. The police response would have been different. This country has a long established history of dehumanizing blacks...

You're right, and you make a good point. I'm afraid that blacks are in a unique situation. Still, I spend a lot of time in Southern California these days, and I'm often astonished, in a good way, by the sheer racial diversity all around me. Years ago, I was in many business meetings where I was the only non-Asian in the room. I'm going off on a sidetrack here, and again I don't want to belittle the special prejudice that African Americans face. But it's interesting to be in a racially-diverse part of the country, and start to understand how it feels to be in the minority. Especially when you can't even trust the police, of all people.

I know I'm making a leap; we're not there yet. But I do fear that we're not as far as we should be, as we MUST be, from a society where ANY ONE of us could be the next Trayvon.

35 Lidane  Wed, Mar 21, 2012 10:33:48pm

re: #26 Ming

Until this week, if I heard the phrase "to protect and serve white people", I would have considered it insane left-wing hyperbole. Now, as the tragedy of Trayvon pulls at my heartstrings, there's also the nagging incredulity that for some police departments, apparently "to protect and serve white people" is not far from the truth.

If the circumstances in this case had been reversed, and Martin had chased and killed Zimmerman in the same exact way that he was murdered, then we wouldn't be talking about this story right now. Trayvon Martin would be in jail awaiting trial for murder, "stand your ground" law or not. It's as simple as that.

36 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Wed, Mar 21, 2012 10:33:56pm

re: #31 High Priest of Darwinism

Sometimes I have to remind myself that there are people who still think "Driving While Black" is a myth, made up by people trying to play the victim.

We know it's not. A neighbor of mine is placing cameras about his car, much like the police do. I highly recommend others do the same.

37 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Wed, Mar 21, 2012 10:36:21pm

re: #33 windupbird is in the gravity well

I don't think they botched it, botched implies they made a mistake

this was deliberate, they wantonly lied and obfusctated facts in the investigation

I'm not trying to defend this ugly clusterfuck, but do you have a credible link for that?

38 Mocking Jay  Wed, Mar 21, 2012 10:38:19pm

If you want to sleep well tonight I suggest you refrain from thinking about what happens to this country if George Zimmerman is put on trial and acquitted...

39 Lidane  Wed, Mar 21, 2012 10:39:50pm

re: #38 High Priest of Darwinism

If you want to sleep well tonight I suggest you refrain from thinking about what happens to this country if George Zimmerman is put on trial and acquitted...

He won't make it to trial. The police screwed the pooch so thoroughly from the start that he's going to end up getting away with murder.

40 Targetpractice  Wed, Mar 21, 2012 10:45:09pm

re: #35 Lidane

If the circumstances in this case had been reversed, and Martin had chased and killed Zimmerman in the same exact way that he was murdered, then we wouldn't be talking about this story right now. Trayvon Martin would be in jail awaiting trial for murder, "stand your ground" law or not. It's as simple as that.

Yeah, as much as I don't want the focus to be on the racial aspect, I don't see how a reversed scenario would have played out the same way. That a black vigilante gunning down a white teen on a rainy night because he "looked suspicious" would have walked free by claiming "self-defense."

41 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Wed, Mar 21, 2012 10:45:48pm

re: #38 High Priest of Darwinism

If you want to sleep well tonight I suggest you refrain from thinking about what happens to this country if George Zimmerman is put on trial and acquitted...

Some nasty, unhinged, unrelated revenge shit occurring in parts of Florida and other large towns in various states. More innocent people dying for something they had nothing to do with, and lots of property damaged or destroyed that was completely unrelated to the issue.

The 24 Hour News Cycle will cover it breathlessly, and then some obscure band will write a song about it.

Youtube Video

And three weeks later, everyone goes back to their normal, boring, daily routines.

42 ReamWorks SKG  Wed, Mar 21, 2012 10:49:51pm
"He also argued against removing a racial slur from the Florida state song."

Ok! Now you're making us look up the Florida State song to see what the racial slur is.

Wikipedia says it's "Old Folks at Home." The original lyric I have in a Dover book about popular songs of the 19th century reveals the lyrics

"Oh! darkies how my heart grows weary"

but the whole song, in its context as a Minstrel song, may be inappropriate, unless perhaps freshened with new lyrics.

Or, knowing Florida, they'll replace it with Turkey In the Straw

43 Lidane  Wed, Mar 21, 2012 10:50:03pm

re: #40 Targetpractice

Yeah, as much as I don't want the focus to be on the racial aspect, I don't see how a reversed scenario would have played out the same way. That a black vigilante gunning down a white teen on a rainy night because he "looked suspicious" would have walked free by claiming "self-defense."

In this country, a black vigilante following an unarmed white teen in a car, then chasing him on foot, then attacking him and killing him = a one-way trip for that vigilante to death row. Simple as that.

No one would have made excuses for that vigilante using this "stand your ground" bullshit or anything. That vigilante would have been tested for every drug and type of alcohol on the planet, we'd know all the details of what happened, and they'd be in jail right now hoping for a public defender to step forward to try and plead them down to a life sentence instead.

44 Mocking Jay  Wed, Mar 21, 2012 10:50:28pm

Stand Your Ground really seems like an awesome law for stalkers.

45 Lidane  Wed, Mar 21, 2012 10:51:58pm

re: #44 High Priest of Darwinism

Stand Your Ground really seems like an awesome law for stalkers.

Stalkers, bitter ex-spouses, family disputes, etc. All you have to do is claim you felt threatened and you get away with murder.

46 MittDoesNotCompute  Wed, Mar 21, 2012 10:52:00pm

re: #42 ReamWorks

Ok! Now you're making us look up the Florida State song to see what the racial slur is.

Wikipedia says it's "Old Folks at Home." The original lyric I have in a Dover book about popular songs of the 19th century reveals the lyrics

"Oh! darkies how my heart grows weary"

but the whole song, in its context as a Minstrel song, may be inappropriate, unless perhaps freshened with new lyrics.

This is the state who gave us the term "cracker"...

47 Targetpractice  Wed, Mar 21, 2012 10:53:23pm

re: #45 Lidane

Stalkers, bitter ex-spouses, family disputes, etc. All you have to do is claim you felt threatened and you get away with murder.

Just so long as you're alone with the only other witness, who's dead when the whole altercation is over.

48 Mocking Jay  Wed, Mar 21, 2012 10:59:04pm

re: #47 Targetpractice

Just so long as you're alone with the only other witness, who's dead when the whole altercation is over.

Just get someone nice and pissed enough to take a few swings at you...

49 Targetpractice  Wed, Mar 21, 2012 11:01:15pm

re: #43 Lidane

In this country, a black vigilante following an unarmed white teen in a car, then chasing him on foot, then attacking him and killing him = a one-way trip for that vigilante to death row. Simple as that.

No one would have made excuses for that vigilante using this "stand your ground" bullshit or anything. That vigilante would have been tested for every drug and type of alcohol on the planet, we'd know all the details of what happened, and they'd be in jail right now hoping for a public defender to step forward to try and plead them down to a life sentence instead.

Yep, but then most of the events leading up to this tragedy also wouldn't have played out the same. A black man getting in a fight with a cop over the arrest of a friend would have spent time in jail, or at the very least lost his gun in the process of pleading the charges away. He wouldn't have been humored by his neighborhood when he declared himself the "captain" of the non-existent neighborhood watch and ran patrols at night by himself. And I very much doubt the cops would have put up with him ringing 911 on an almost daily basis to report "suspicious persons."

50 Lidane  Wed, Mar 21, 2012 11:06:45pm

re: #49 Targetpractice

Yep, but then most of the events leading up to this tragedy also wouldn't have played out the same."

True, but if you point that out, then you become the racist.

51 goddamnedfrank  Wed, Mar 21, 2012 11:08:28pm

re: #37 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks

I'm not trying to defend this ugly clusterfuck, but do you have a credible link for that?

The officer told the witness, a long-time teacher, it was Zimmerman who cried for help, said the witness. ABC News has spoken to the teacher and she confirmed that the officer corrected her when she said she heard the teenager shout for help.

This is just the most flagrant kind of inappropriate behavior. Not only is it professional misconduct for a police officer to tamper or in any way try to steer a witness's recollection or testimony, but for a cop, an authority figure to actually correct a witness during questioning, to tell them that what they said isn't right, because it doesn't line up with someone else's account constitutes witness tampering, and possibly intimidation.

It's just so wrong, so deeply and utterly the opposite of proper police work that I basically have to believe that there was an overt agenda at play.

52 Lidane  Wed, Mar 21, 2012 11:09:28pm

re: #51 goddamnedfrank

It's just so wrong, so deeply and utterly the opposite of proper police work that I basically have to believe that there was an overt agenda at play.

And because of it, a murderer will most likely go free.

53 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Wed, Mar 21, 2012 11:14:01pm

re: #51 goddamnedfrank

There's that, and then there's this, from the same article...

But after the shooting, a source inside the police department told ABC News that a narcotics detective and not a homicide detective first approached Zimmerman. The detective pepppered Zimmerman with questions, the source said, rather than allow Zimmerman to tell his story. Questions can lead a witness, the source said.

Clusterfuck.

54 Targetpractice  Wed, Mar 21, 2012 11:18:27pm

re: #51 goddamnedfrank

This is just the most flagrant kind of inappropriate behavior. Not only is it professional misconduct for a police officer to tamper or in any way try to steer a witness's recollection or testimony, but for a cop, an authority figure to actually correct a witness during questioning, to tell them that what they said isn't right, because it doesn't line up with someone else's account constitutes witness tampering, and possibly intimidation.

It's just so wrong, so deeply and utterly the opposite of proper police work that I basically have to believe that there was an overt agenda at play.

That's the only conclusion that can be drawn at this point is that the Sanford PD purposefully screwed up their own investigation. Whether the motivation was racial bias, disinterest in cases that virtually impossible to prosecute successfully, or something else doesn't matter. Heads should roll and, God willing, very likely will when the Feds get done with their investigation. Zimmerman may not go to jail, but there are a lot of people involved in this mockery of justice who should.

55 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Wed, Mar 21, 2012 11:21:03pm

re: #46 talon_262

This is the state who gave us the term "cracker"...

For the thick swamps and marshlands that made lassoing wild beasts impossible. To corral the wild descendants of the livestock left behind by the Spanish, the crack of the whip was employed to herd them.

56 goddamnedfrank  Wed, Mar 21, 2012 11:22:41pm

re: #53 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks

There's that, and then there's this, from the same article...

Clusterfuck.

Grey's Law - Any sufficiently advanced incompetence is indistinguishable from malice.

57 abolitionist  Wed, Mar 21, 2012 11:23:22pm

With the feds getting involved in this case, one thing I hope come out is whether or not the Sanford 911 system was counting Zimmerman as the one "officer there", within the first 2 minutes after Trayvon was shot.

Some callers to Sanford's 911 probably didn't go to their windows, didn't look outside, didn't go outside, didn't consider witnessing anything, because they were assured very early on that there was one "officer there" already.

If I should ever call 911 about some fight outside my home, and I'm informed that there's already an "officer on-scene", I'd really hate having having to wonder if they meant someone like Zimmerman.

58 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Wed, Mar 21, 2012 11:24:29pm

re: #54 Targetpractice

That's the only conclusion that can be drawn at this point is that the Sanford PD purposefully screwed up their own investigation.

That's speculation. Inexcusable incompetency could very well be another conclusion. Either way, it's piss poor performance that demands consequence.

59 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Wed, Mar 21, 2012 11:28:34pm

re: #56 goddamnedfrank

Grey's Law - Any sufficiently advanced incompetence is indistinguishable from malice.

Hanlon's Razor - Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.

Yet neither of these ideas will bring Trayvon back to life. Nor will any form of speculation.

60 goddamnedfrank  Wed, Mar 21, 2012 11:31:29pm

re: #59 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks

Hanlon's Razor - Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.

Yet neither of these ideas will bring Trayvon back to life. Nor will any form of speculation.

That's why I don't care if the root cause is stupidity/incompetence or if it's malicious/intentional, the result is the same and all we can do is make sure there are consequences.

61 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Wed, Mar 21, 2012 11:35:41pm

re: #60 goddamnedfrank

That's why I don't care if the root cause is stupidity/incmopetence or if it's malicious/intentional, the result is the same and all we can do is make sure there are consequences.

:fist bump:

Either/Or... Corrective action needs to be taken.

62 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Wed, Mar 21, 2012 11:38:36pm

And I'm not sure which explanation I would be happier with, incompetent stupidity or malicious intent.

"None of the above" is where I'm at.

63 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Wed, Mar 21, 2012 11:50:16pm

And even at that, I am speculating about what really went down in this incident, as I have not taken much time to familiarize myself with what few facts are currently present in this case.

64 AK-47%  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 12:06:39am

re: #13 William Barnett-Lewis

Self defense in your own home is accepted everywhere, the extension of it to wherever you happen to be standing (especially after having followed someone) is what makes SYG so troublesome.

65 Robert O.  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 12:08:46am

What is the difference between "Sons of Confederate Veterans" and "Sons of Nazi Veterans"?

66 AK-47%  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 12:10:21am

re: #65 Robert O.

Let us not conflate the two. But they both share a tendency to ignore the key aspects of their history and insisit that they are only "celebrating their heritage"

67 freetoken  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 12:11:28am

Ehrman's latest entry at HuffPo:

Did Jesus Exist?

seems to have generated lots of heat in the "new atheist" community as well as among HuffPo readers. Lots of gnashing of teeth.

I've stayed away of critiques of the "new atheists", but it appears they have as much of a cross to carry monkey on their back as some fundamentalists.

68 freetoken  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 12:23:24am

The more I think about it, the more I appreciate how brilliant of a marketing move this has been for Ehrman. He's been repackaging the same ideas for years now (with good reason - they sell, and they are mostly accepted by secular scholars in the area), but to move books off the shelf he's got to keep adding new flavors, like a chef who cycles through the spice cabinet to do something with the same old whitefish week after week.

Still, that some of the "new atheists" are so hot about whether there really existed a man who could be identified as the (source of the stories about the character of) Jesus bar Joseph of Nazareth is telling.

69 freetoken  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 12:25:34am
MP3 Audio
70 Kragar  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 12:29:09am

re: #68 freetoken

The more I think about it, the more I appreciate how brilliant of a marketing move this has been for Ehrman. He's been repackaging the same ideas for years now (with good reason - they sell, and they are mostly accepted by secular scholars in the area), but to move books off the shelf he's got to keep adding new flavors, like a chef who cycles through the spice cabinet to do something with the same old whitefish week after week.

Still, that some of the "new atheists" are so hot about whether there really existed a man who could be identified as the (source of the stories about the character of) Jesus bar Joseph of Nazareth is telling.

Eh, they're just as bad as the creationists when it comes to evidence and their arguments.

Was there a man named Jesus who Christianity is based on? Yes, historical evidence seems to back that up.

Was he the Son of "God", imbued with miraculous powers? Eh, not so much.

71 AK-47%  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 12:33:26am

re: #70 Kragar

Eh, they're just as bad as the creationists when it comes to evidence and their arguments.

Was there a man named Jesus who Christianity is based on? Yes, historical evidence seems to back that up.

Was he the Son of "God", imbued with miraculous powers? Eh, not so much.

On one hand you have the "Every word of the Bible is God's Literal Truth even when it contradicts itself" school, at the other extreme there is the "Scripture contradicts itself, therefore it is all bullsh*t" school.

Most people without serious religious, personal and social issues can find some sort of middle ground somewhere.

72 freetoken  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 12:34:06am

re: #70 Kragar

Was there a man named Jesus who Christianity is based on? Yes, historical evidence seems to back that up.

The "mythicists" disagree, sometimes vehemently. And, it seems many of the "new atheists" have hitched their wagon to the mythicists. You'd be derided as a "historicist".

73 freetoken  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 12:34:35am

Will not win DWTS, but it will be fun while she's there:

MP3 Audio
74 Kragar  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 12:36:54am

re: #72 freetoken

The "mythicists" disagree, sometimes vehemently. And, it seems many of the "new atheists" have hitched their wagon to the mythicists. You'd be derided as a "historicist".

Well, all I know is I'll be the one laughing in awe and madness when the Great Old Ones return and their myths fail them utterly.
/

75 AK-47%  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 12:37:50am

re: #74 Kragar

Well, all I know is I'll be the one laughing in awe and madness when the Great Old Ones return and their myths fail them utterly.
/

What if they come back disguised as Jesus just to f*ck with your head? They're like that, you know...

76 Kragar  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 12:41:06am

re: #75 Second Amendment Renegation

What if they come back disguised as Jesus just to f*ck with your head? They're like that, you know...

HE HAS RISEN!

77 AK-47%  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 12:52:18am

re: #76 Kragar

HE HAS RISEN!

Are you Cthulic?

78 Kragar  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 12:59:25am

re: #77 Second Amendment Renegation

Are you Cthulic?

Non-denominational Elderist

79 researchok  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 1:17:53am

Morning, all

80 researchok  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 1:26:17am

re: #73 freetoken

Will not win DWTS, but it will be fun while she's there:

[Embedded content]

They don't make 'em like that anymore.

Great choice.

81 researchok  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 1:31:04am

re: #68 freetoken

The more I think about it, the more I appreciate how brilliant of a marketing move this has been for Ehrman. He's been repackaging the same ideas for years now (with good reason - they sell, and they are mostly accepted by secular scholars in the area), but to move books off the shelf he's got to keep adding new flavors, like a chef who cycles through the spice cabinet to do something with the same old whitefish week after week.

Still, that some of the "new atheists" are so hot about whether there really existed a man who could be identified as the (source of the stories about the character of) Jesus bar Joseph of Nazareth is telling.

He's just down the road from me in Chapel Hill.

He has a reputation of liking to see his name in print- a lot.

He doesn't have a lot of fans at Duke.

82 boxhead  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 1:40:33am

re: #65 Robert O.

What is the difference between "Sons of Confederate Veterans" and "Sons of Nazi Veterans"?

About 7,400 Km and 80 years.

83 boxhead  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 1:49:35am

re: #72 freetoken

The "mythicists" disagree, sometimes vehemently. And, it seems many of the "new atheists" have hitched their wagon to the mythicists. You'd be derided as a "historicist".

People spend way too much energy just to be contrary. Folks need to chill and enjoy what we do know.

84 boxhead  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 2:00:06am

I hear crickets....

85 boxhead  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 2:02:33am

re: #68 freetoken

And do not discount the goal of many page clicks. Tossing virtual bombs that are known to rile the masses is not new.

86 AK-47%  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 2:08:33am

re: #84 boxhead

I hear crickets...

God is not dead, just this thread...

87 boxhead  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 2:09:48am

re: #86 Second Amendment Renegation

God is not dead, just this thread...

lol... but I have faith this thread will rise from the dead.

88 AK-47%  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 2:10:38am

three days later...

89 boxhead  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 2:11:25am

re: #88 Second Amendment Renegation

three days later...

much like mayo in the sun, no threads last that long.

90 AK-47%  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 2:12:33am

sink-o de mayo?

91 boxhead  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 2:13:39am

re: #90 Second Amendment Renegation

sure..... why not...:)

92 AK-47%  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 2:23:03am
Youtube Video
93 boxhead  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 2:24:17am

re: #92 Second Amendment Renegation

cool....

94 Obdicut  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 2:55:12am

re: #87 boxhead

lol... but I have faith this thread will rise from the dead.

It's 5:54 AM, EST. Dawn will come.

95 boxhead  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 3:01:26am

re: #94 Obdicut

sleep for me now.... :)

96 A Mom Anon  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 3:58:44am

Since it's quiet...

OK,so aren't there already laws on the books that allow for self defense? Beyond the Castle Law(your home is your castle,people coming in uninvited can be considered to have bad intent that allows you to defend yourself),doesn't the law pretty much allow each circumstance to be considered and mercy of the courts shown? Like if a woman kills her rapist as an example.

If so,then what in the fresh hell is the need for this Stand Your Ground horseshit? Is this more NRA handiwork? And if it is,when is the NRA going to be held accountable for all the havoc they cause? I am not anti-gun in the least. I am however anti-fear mongering lobbyist. I'm also for some decent rules and regs regarding the ownership of guns. And no,not everyone should have a freaking gun. Education,training and proper licencing would be awesome,just like you have to have to operate a car or heavy machines. That infringes on no one. Is the NRA going to show up in Sanford FL like they did right after Columbine? SYG is now the law in 17 states,FL was just the first,I just wonder how often what happened to Trayvon has happened in all those states and it's been covered up.

97 Aye Pod  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 4:02:17am

re: #70 Kragar

Eh, they're just as bad as the creationists when it comes to evidence and their arguments.

Was there a man named Jesus who Christianity is based on? Yes, historical evidence seems to back that up.

Was he the Son of "God", imbued with miraculous powers? Eh, not so much.

Eh? Doubting Jesus's existence, given the paucity of solid evidence is a perfectly rational thing to do, not on any level comparable with creationism.

Personally, I think there probably was a real life character upon whom Jesus was based. I think the lack of contemporary evidence from non-christian sources speaks more to the fact that he just wasn't big news at the time.

98 Shropshire_Slasher  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 4:09:40am

French gunman Mohammed Merah shot dead
[Link: news.sky.com...]

99 Obdicut  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 4:11:47am

re: #98 Tommy's cone of shame

Damn it. I really hope that he and his brother were acting alone. At least they got the brother in custody.

100 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 4:13:44am

Morning Lizards!

Foggy and drizzly today in Philly. Off to work!

101 AK-47%  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 4:15:58am

re: #96 A Mom Anon

It was the sort of law that played well with the electorate in Florida, which is why a lot of politicians got behind it. It is also based on the premise that all gun owners are responsible, and that all gangstas and hoodlums pose a potential threat to them.

We saw what happened when an irresponsible gun owner encountered a black non-gangsta under the wrong circumstances.

102 Decatur Deb  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 4:47:47am

re: #96 A Mom Anon

Since it's quiet...

OK,so aren't there already laws on the books that allow for self defense? Beyond the Castle Law(your home is your castle,people coming in uninvited can be considered to have bad intent that allows you to defend yourself),doesn't the law pretty much allow each circumstance to be considered and mercy of the courts shown? Like if a woman kills her rapist as an example.

If so,then what in the fresh hell is the need for this Stand Your Ground horseshit? Is this more NRA handiwork? And if it is,when is the NRA going to be held accountable for all the havoc they cause? I am not anti-gun in the least. I am however anti-fear mongering lobbyist. I'm also for some decent rules and regs regarding the ownership of guns. And no,not everyone should have a freaking gun. Education,training and proper licencing would be awesome,just like you have to have to operate a car or heavy machines. That infringes on no one. Is the NRA going to show up in Sanford FL like they did right after Columbine? SYG is now the law in 17 states,FL was just the first,I just wonder how often what happened to Trayvon has happened in all those states and it's been covered up.

The NRA is now the Voice of Reason within the gun lobby. Here is the GOA (Gun Owners of America). They are the go-to for people who think the NRA has turned wuss.

[Link: gunowners.org...]

Note: These idiots are one of the many 'charitable' organizations that are part of the federal employees' United-Wayish campaign.

103 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 4:49:38am

re: #97 Captain Senseless

Eh? Doubting Jesus's existence, given the paucity of solid evidence is a perfectly rational thing to do, not on any level comparable with creationism.

While it is much more irrational to deny evolution than historical Jesus, a comparison at some level can be made. For example, like creationists, mythicists try to explain away the evidence for the more probable hypothesis.

104 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 4:53:25am

re: #72 freetoken

The "mythicists" disagree, sometimes vehemently. And, it seems many of the "new atheists" have hitched their wagon to the mythicists. You'd be derided as a "historicist".

OK, the prominents "new atheists" who gave the rise to the term are Dawkins, Dennett, Harris and Hitchens. While I have read some of their atheistic stuff, not having the need, I haven't read it all. So I gotta ask: which of the four is an explicit mythicist?

105 Decatur Deb  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 5:09:24am

re: #103 Anti-Pope of Darwinism

While it is much more irrational to deny evolution than historical Jesus, a comparison at some level can be made. For example, like creationists, mythicists try to explain away the evidence for the more probable hypothesis.

A few years back an academic tried to relegate Joan of Arc to myth. It wasn't irrational, but it was not good scholarship either. If he could make a run at invalidating a 15th century figure, denying the existence of a 1st century wandering holy man is no trick. For my guess, the stresses of Roman-occupied Judea generated a handful of messiahs every year, and one of them had the right combination to fit the needs of the changing times.

106 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 5:13:34am

re: #105 Decatur Deb

Well, yeah. The farther we go in time the less certain things become. It is obvious to me, for example, that existence of historical Jesus is less "firm" than existence of Julius Caesar, but more "firm" than that of Homer. So it's not an either/or proposition. But it is more rational to make a judgment "Jesus existed" than its opposite, based on the available evidence and common sense.

107 Gus  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 5:13:52am

re: #104 Anti-Pope of Darwinism

OK, the prominents "new atheists" who gave the rise to the term are Dawkins, Dennett, Harris and Hitchens. While I have read some of their atheistic stuff, not having the need, I haven't read it all. So I gotta ask: which of the four is an explicit mythicist?

Definitely Hitchens because he's up there in heaven with the little baby Jesus.

//

108 Gus  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 5:14:37am

Oh look! A confederate!

109 AK-47%  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 5:17:15am

re: #105 Decatur Deb

Not unlike any attempt at getting to the "historic" Robin Hood or King Arthur: they seem to be amalgamations of various characters who lived at various places and times and each added a bit to the legend over the course of centuries.

110 Gus  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 5:18:32am

Someone got the boot.

111 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 5:21:00am

re: #110 Gus

Someone got the boot.

Whahappened?

112 Gus  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 5:22:12am

re: #111 Anti-Pope of Darwinism

Whahappened?

I don't know exactly. It was a long term thing it seems. Already had a first warning and all that.

113 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 5:22:48am

re: #112 Gus

I mean who. I missed everything ;)

114 Gus  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 5:24:18am

re: #113 Anti-Pope of Darwinism

I mean who. I missed everything ;)

Hint: Malvinas/Falklands.

115 AK-47%  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 5:25:35am

Margaret Thatcher?

116 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 5:25:38am

re: #114 Gus

Hint: Malvinas/Falklands.

Did it have to do with calls for killing of Salafis?

117 AK-47%  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 5:26:10am

I don't like Salafis. Would stop short at calling for their killing, though...

118 Gus  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 5:26:18am

re: #116 Anti-Pope of Darwinism

Did it have to do with calls for killing of Salafis?

More than likely.

119 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 5:27:21am

re: #110 Gus

Someone got the boot.

Das Boot?

/Sorry

Morning Lizardim from the mild and wet wild north country. I'm too tired to come up with anything more witty, so you'll just have to deal with my lame attempts at humor until I slink away in shame.

120 AK-47%  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 5:27:21am

ROFS

rolling on floor, Salafing

121 Obdicut  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 5:31:46am

re: #114 Gus

He asked for a temporary block, because he felt he was going to flip out.

122 Gus  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 5:32:58am

re: #121 Obdicut

He asked for a temporary block, because he felt he was going to flip out.

Ah. Temporary? I saw that one comment regarding 7 days. Thought to myelf about the "time out" stuff.

123 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 5:33:08am

re: #121 Obdicut

He asked for a temporary block, because he felt he was going to flip out.

He got a total block though, and his request was deleted.

124 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 5:33:43am

When there's a time-out, it says so in the info window, I believe.

125 Gus  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 5:34:04am

re: #124 Anti-Pope of Darwinism

When there's a time-out, it says so in the info window, I believe.

Yep.

126 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 5:35:09am

re: #125 Gus

Yep.

It could be that the time-out function only works for 24hrs, so hypothetically it may still be temporary, to be manually removed. We'll see, I guess.

127 Gus  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 5:35:34am

re: #126 Anti-Pope of Darwinism

It could be that the time-out function only works for 24hrs, so hypothetically it may still be temporary, to be manually removed. We'll see, I guess.

Yep.

128 Decatur Deb  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 5:35:37am

As he described himself, the kid was fucked by fate and his family. I hope he finds some decent medical help, or he's going to show up on the evening news.

129 Gus  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 5:40:57am

Big announcement today from Obama in OK. Remember that he's still the best option we have.

130 Obdicut  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 5:42:28am

re: #128 Decatur Deb

Autism is a real damn burden, and it makes it difficult to help oneself. If you don't have a good family to help you through it, man, you're in for a rough time.

I worked at the Orthogenic School in Chicago, and from my experience, the kids who didn't have significant parental support needed to be really, really dedicated to changing themselves, had to be almost cruel to themselves, in order to actually be able to make it on their own.

And since people with autism are basically suffering constantly, telling them they have to be mean to themselves just feels awful anyway.

131 Obdicut  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 5:46:13am

re: #129 Gus

It'll be the fast-tracking of the pipepline permits for the Southern XL line. Which I'm fine with. The way to get us off oil is not to restrict the amount being produced, it's to end subsidies for oil production and increase them for alternative energy-- as well as just massive infrastructure spending.

I don't think that the GOP will actually let Obama do either of the last two, but at least he's trying. Hopefully the GOP's internal troubles will sap its political force enough to get them out of the way, but that's far from a sure thing in this demon-haunted nation.

132 Decatur Deb  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 5:47:23am

re: #130 Obdicut

Autism is a real damn burden, and it makes it difficult to help oneself. If you don't have a good family to help you through it, man, you're in for a rough time.

I worked at the Orthogenic School in Chicago, and from my experience, the kids who didn't have significant parental support needed to be really, really dedicated to changing themselves, had to be almost cruel to themselves, in order to actually be able to make it on their own.

And since people with autism are basically suffering constantly, telling them they have to be mean to themselves just feels awful anyway.

Interesting school, I'll add it to my list of things to look into. Grand-daughter 3 is halfway up the scale or worse, but is holding on to elementary school 'Talented and Gifted' program with a lot of help. She will end up counting canned goods or galaxies.

133 AK-47%  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 5:48:31am

re: #131 Obdicut

It is amusing that Free Market proponents think that the US energy industry has anything to do with the Free Market as they understand it...

134 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 5:48:35am

re: #126 Anti-Pope of Darwinism

It could be that the time-out function only works for 24hrs, so hypothetically it may still be temporary, to be manually removed. We'll see, I guess.

Just as long as he doesn't go all Walter on us if the block does get removed. Then again, Walter was a bit unstable even before that incident.

135 Obdicut  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 5:51:54am

re: #132 Decatur Deb

It's a very leadership-driven school, so it entirely depends on who's running it now. I haven't checked into it for awhile. It has a great mission, a great overall philosophy, but it does tend to change a lot depending on who's in charge.

One of the best things I can say about it is that one of the former directors of it was also a former student there, Bertram Cohler. He also blew out the budget, but at least he did it while providing amazing educations and therapies for the kids there.

136 Obdicut  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 5:54:24am

re: #132 Decatur Deb

I missed my window this year for applying for a specific grant to set up a employment agency targeting autists, but I really want to get it started. As soon as this buttload of work is over and I finish editing my book, I'm going to really bear down hard on that.

137 Gus  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 5:56:29am

re: #131 Obdicut

It'll be the fast-tracking of the pipepline permits for the Southern XL line. Which I'm fine with. The way to get us off oil is not to restrict the amount being produced, it's to end subsidies for oil production and increase them for alternative energy-- as well as just massive infrastructure spending.

I don't think that the GOP will actually let Obama do either of the last two, but at least he's trying. Hopefully the GOP's internal troubles will sap its political force enough to get them out of the way, but that's far from a sure thing in this demon-haunted nation.

I am certain that the complaints from the puritopian side will be rather noticeable. Along with that will be words of regret typical in this sort of thing with people thinking "when will we get a 'real' environmentalist president" and so on.

That aside I'm sure Obama will include a trade-off. I can start off with two. He will either announce a concurrent sustainable/renewable energy directive or project(s) or ask for concessions from the Republican side of the aisle on that or other proposals. It will likely be combination of the two.

138 A Mom Anon  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 5:59:37am

re: #136 Obdicut

When you start that I'd love to hear more about what you're doing and how it will all work.

139 AK-47%  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 5:59:40am

re: #137 Gus

I think he is betting that most Americans are intelligent enough to understand that although we need to get off oil over the long run, we cannot just go cold turkey on it.

I hope he can sell the GOP on that notion, they seem to think that there is something about fossil fuels that is part of our national identity.

140 Decatur Deb  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 5:59:49am

re: #136 Obdicut

I missed my window this year for applying for a specific grant to set up a employment agency targeting autists, but I really want to get it started. As soon as this buttload of work is over and I finish editing my book, I'm going to really bear down hard on that.

I'm fairly sure I saw reports of a Danish company doing that. Could save you some false starts. Periodic plug--my daughter wrote a small book about the first seven years experience raising the kid. It's out in Kindle and paper. (One English woman of the Awetism ilk really hated it.)

[Link: www.amazon.com...]

141 Obdicut  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 6:02:45am

re: #140 Decatur Deb

Yes, I did see the Danish company doing it, that's part of what I need to investigate. If I recall, they're a for-profit model; it might actually be that this would be better as for-profit, be able to help more, but it also seems semi-exploitative, but I'm always over-cautious in that direction anyway.

Bookmarked the book for later reading.

142 Decatur Deb  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 6:03:04am

re: #136 Obdicut

I missed my window this year for applying for a specific grant to set up a employment agency targeting autists, but I really want to get it started. As soon as this buttload of work is over and I finish editing my book, I'm going to really bear down hard on that.

Danish company in the NYT:

[Link: opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com...]

143 Gus  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 6:04:09am

re: #139 Second Amendment Renegation

I think he is betting that most Americans are intelligent enough to understand that although we need to get off oil over the long run, we cannot just go cold turkey on it.

I hope he can sell the GOP on that notion, they seem to think that there is something about fossil fuels that is part of our national identity.

Yes. Typically if you go on a diet and from eating a pint of ice cream every night to rice cakes and water the next few nights that diet will fail.

144 Decatur Deb  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 6:05:07am

re: #141 Obdicut

Yes, I did see the Danish company doing it, that's part of what I need to investigate. If I recall, they're a for-profit model; it might actually be that this would be better as for-profit, be able to help more, but it also seems semi-exploitative, but I'm always over-cautious in that direction anyway.

Bookmarked the book for later reading.

Not a worry. There's a buncha autistic kids out there who really could use the exploitation.

146 Gus  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 6:05:39am

And! Of course. The wingers are still going to complain. We'll have to wait and say what exactly Obama has to say. But that's a given. Wingnut belly aching. Film at 11.

147 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 6:09:37am

re: #139 Second Amendment Renegation

I think he is betting that most Americans are intelligent enough to understand that although we need to get off oil over the long run, we cannot just go cold turkey on it.

I hope he can sell the GOP on that notion, they seem to think that there is something about fossil fuels that is part of our national identity.

It's a tough sell because the GOP is the party of the Good Ol' Days. Included among all the mind-blowing stupid is the fact that they yearn to have the muscle car era back.

Embargo? Never happened. Peak oil? No such thing. Take the fuel injectors off and give us our Holley double-pumpers.

Not that I have anything against badass race cars, but the time for driving gas-guzzling powerhouses on a regular basis is long since past. Americans need to get over their fascination with high-horsepower V8 engines and start making smart economic/environmental choices for their daily drivers. I have nothing against someone who wants to keep a powerful vehicle for recreation, but you don't need a 4-ton Hummer to drive your special snowflakes to school.

148 Decatur Deb  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 6:11:17am

re: #145 Anti-Pope of Darwinism

[Embedded content]

Bird Fancyer's Delight

Youtube Video
149 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 6:12:04am

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

Lenin was a mushroom (Russian: Ленин — гриб) was a televised hoax by musician Sergey Kuryokhin and reporter Sergey Sholokhov. It was first broadcast on 17 May 1991 on Leningrad Television. The hoax had the form of an interview.
In the interview Kuryokhin was telling about his findings that Lenin used to consume a lot of psychedelic mushrooms and eventually turned into a mushroom himself. This absurd idea wasn't presented all at once; instead there was a resemblance of logical chain of reasonings, facts and quotations from various sources. An aura of plausibility was created using manipulation of facts, pseudo-scientific style and loose storytelling.
The timing of the hoax played a large role in its success. It was shown on TV in the Glasnost period when many censorship barriers fell and there were many revelations and publication of previously concealed facts from USSR history, often with sensational flavor. Additionally, Soviet TV had been very official and prim before. As a result, approximately 11,250,000 audience members took the hoax seriously, even despite the totally absurd claims. According to S. Sholokhov himself, in response to inquiries about the truth of the claims, the person responsible for ideology in a Regional Committee of the Communist Party stated that they were false, as "a mammal can not be a plant."[1]

150 Obdicut  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 6:12:09am

re: #147 thedopefishlives

Yeah. I think big bonfires are cool. I don't think we should have big bonfires everywhere every night.

151 Aye Pod  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 6:13:11am

re: #103 Anti-Pope of Darwinism

While it is much more irrational to deny evolution than historical Jesus, a comparison at some level can be made. For example, like creationists, mythicists try to explain away the evidence for the more probable hypothesis.

I'm not sure that there is much evidence to deny in this case, which is why I make a strong distinction here with creationism. My view however is that Jesus most likely is based on a real person, as there doesn't seem to have been any shortage of self proclaimed prophets in those (or any other) times. Complete invention would seem to be redundant.

152 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 6:14:06am

re: #151 Captain Senseless

I'm not sure that there is much evidence to deny in this case,

Sure, but they deny whatever there is.

154 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 6:17:07am

re: #153 Gus

Republicans respond to Obama announcing a) a cure for cancer; b) tax-cuts; c) drill here drill now; d) the killing of bin Laden; e) etc.

God forbid if he announced that scientists had found a cure for AIDS. "He's just enabling those dirty homosexuals and sluts to have consequence-free sex!"

155 Decatur Deb  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 6:18:40am

Dog time. BBL

156 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 6:18:46am

Lenin was a mushroom:

Youtube Video
Youtube Video
157 AK-47%  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 6:19:17am

re: #149 Anti-Pope of Darwinism

If John F. Kennedy could be a jelly doughnut, then why couldn't Lenin be a mushroom?

158 Gus  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 6:20:01am

re: #154 thedopefishlives

God forbid if he announced that scientists had found a cure for AIDS. "He's just enabling those dirty homosexuals and sluts to have consequence-free sex!"

Is that you Bryan Fischer?

//

159 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 6:20:55am

re: #158 Gus

Is that you Bryan Fischer?

//

No, because unlike the aforementioned douchebag, I actually engage in consequence-free sex on a regular basis.

160 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 6:24:09am

re: #158 Gus

Is that you Bryan Fischer?

//

hehe. Full Metal Jacket flashback to what the equivalent reaction to that statement could be...
;)

161 Aye Pod  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 6:24:17am

re: #152 Anti-Pope of Darwinism

Sure, but they deny whatever there is.

It's been a while since I read anything on that debate but as I remember it, it wasn't so much about denying evidence as arguing about what the lack of it meant.

162 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 6:26:13am

re: #161 Captain Senseless

It's been a while since I read anything on that debate but as I remember it, it wasn't so much about denying evidence as arguing about what the lack of it meant.

But there isn't a lack of evidence.

163 AK-47%  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 6:31:04am

re: #162 Anti-Pope of Darwinism

But there isn't a lack of evidence.

Apples and oranges. The New Testament is a testament, a statement of faith. The evangelists are explaining why they belive that Jesus was the Messiah and Savior of mankind.

The Scriptures are not a biography, a history, a science book, a treatise on economic policy or a science book.

The only way to learn from them is to take them for what they are: a statement of faith intended to convince the reader of the author's point of view.

164 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 6:32:50am

re: #163 Second Amendment Renegation

Statement of faith can also be a historical source.

165 Gus  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 6:32:55am

All I know is that human societies are far older than 2,012 years and that the year 2012 is basically an imaginary number.

//

166 Eventual Carrion  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 6:34:38am

re: #165 Gus

All I know is that human societies are far older than 2,012 years and that the year 2012 is basically an imaginary number.

//

We'll see December 21st

:P

167 Aye Pod  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 6:35:19am

re: #162 Anti-Pope of Darwinism

But there isn't a lack of evidence.

I really don't remember there being any evidence from non-christian sources.

168 Gus  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 6:35:24am

re: #166 RayFerd

We'll see December 21st

:P

Is that when the Soviets set off the doomsday bomb?

//

169 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 6:36:16am

re: #167 Captain Senseless

I really don't remember there being any evidence from non-christian sources.

You don't remember Josephus? Strange. Also, Christian sources are also evidence.

170 Gus  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 6:38:07am

I remember doing some surveys or subdivision plats which had the date with "A.D." that was used for some of the certificates. I always thought that was funny. Left it out many times. It's a violation of the Establishment Clause anyway.

171 Shropshire_Slasher  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 6:39:42am

Inside the Ring: Beijing coup rumors
[Link: www.washingtontimes.com...]

172 Eventual Carrion  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 6:40:10am

re: #168 Gus

Is that when the Soviets set off the doomsday bomb?

//

I'm thinking more that the Chinese and Japanese will call in our debt, that would be much worse.

173 Interesting Times  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 6:41:19am
174 Sheila Broflovski  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 6:42:32am

I'm trying to write an essay about the meaning of Bat Mitzvah for my blog and I'm having a hard time coming up with something that doesn't sound mushy and sappy. Maybe I'll just ask my granddaughter to write something about what her Bat Mitzvah means to her, she can probably express herself better than I can.

175 ReamWorks SKG  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 6:44:47am

When this law passed I thought it was unbelievably stupid. I own a 20-acre property in Florida and occasionally kids come on it to ride "quads" or shoot paint ball guns; it's densely wooded and fun to run around if you don't mind snakes.

So when the law passed, I thought to myself "Gee! I could sit on my property, and if some kids comes on it with a paintball gun, I could now get away with shooting him! That doesn't seem right"

It turns out it was worse than I thought! You can shoot someone anywhere, and they don't even need to be holding anything that looks like a weapon!

And there's not even a hearing to ascertain the facts! You're simply not charged. Clearly there should be an investigation: Did the people involved know each other, for example. Questions like that need answers.

176 Aye Pod  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 6:45:21am

re: #169 Anti-Pope of Darwinism

You don't remember Josephus? Strange. Also, Christian sources are also evidence.

Sorry, I meant to say contemporary non-christian sources. Once the 'story' is out we can expect all kinds of 'vindications' from later sources. There are people who believe the Holy Grail is a historical item.

I wouldn't dsmiss christian sources altogether as evidence but at the same time there's no point denying that it can be problematic; I certainly don't see anything to suggest that arguing about it's value is akin to creationist style denial of reality.

177 Gus  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 6:45:25am

re: #172 RayFerd

I'm thinking more that the Chinese and Japanese will call in our debt, that would be much worse.

Which of course some people worry about. Won't happen unless something really off occurs. Right now they're making way too much money off of what they loan us. Which really isn't as much as people think.

The real doomsday will either be something really boring like a virus or a catastrophic event. Ask the dinosaurs. Their could be sever disturbances of the Sun which could occur from now until 10 billion years from now. Actually I think it might be less than 10 billion years. Regardless the human species is finite.

178 Aye Pod  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 6:47:21am

re: #173 Interesting Times

They should re-name it the "Open Season" law.

179 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 6:48:37am

re: #177 Gus

Which of course some people worry about. Won't happen unless something really off occurs. Right now they're making way too much money off of what they loan us. Which really isn't as much as people think.

The real doomsday will either be something really boring like a virus or a catastrophic event. Ask the dinosaurs. Their could be sever disturbances of the Sun which could occur from now until 10 billion years from now. Actually I think it might be less than 10 billion years. Regardless the human species is finite.

I thought it said "server disturbances" and thought about how the world would come to an end from a global internet interruption stopping access to on-line gaming, pr0n, and commenting on blogs.

"Must boot Space Invaders before withdrawl symptoms kick in..."

Getting really punchy in my comments a day earlier than normal.
;)

180 Daniel Ballard  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 6:50:53am

re: #2 William Barnett-Lewis

The problem is, with guns in America, anyone can find anyone saying anything.


The real questions I have to ask is this - is self defense a right or not? If it is, how far can an individual go? Until this is clear we can not begin to debate the rest of the questions.

The old saying is that my right to swing my fist ends where it would intersect with your nose. How do we apply that idea to these circumstances?

Hello everyone,
Well I was out last night with my dad for dinner and drinks so I missed the thread.

I'm probably as strong an advocate for self defense rights as anyone this side of a compound in Idaho. //

Yes we have a right to defend ourselves. If we don't the predators reign.
I do believe in "good cause good character" ccw. Not "shall issue". I like "stand your ground" in your home, not out and about. This Florida law is a serial tragedy in the making. It has to go. In self defense it really matters who goes to who. In the case at hand we had a kid just going home and a killer after him for no good reason. Yesterday I argued for an interpretation of the law that would allow prosecution in this case.

Since I'm going to continue to advocate for self defense rights, I'm going to call in a favor at a legal firm I do some work for. I'd like to see if my reading could work to charge this guy, at least in theory.

BTW the accusation that this law was really about selling guns is bull. You still need a ccw to go out with a gun. If you have that, this law does not make you need another. If you have none, you have no ccw, and the law would just help you in a non gun confrontation. I just don't see the mechanism that would sell guns in this instance to anyone that did not have or want one or more already.

181 Gus  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 6:51:14am

Quintillions and quintillions!

182 ReamWorks SKG  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 6:51:29am

BTW: Florida's "Stand Your Ground" clearly violates G-d's law, if you care about such things:

[Link: jewishandamericanlaw.wordpress.com...]

183 Obdicut  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 6:57:37am

re: #180 Daniel Ballard

Yes we have a right to defend ourselves. If we don't the predators reign.
I do believe in "good cause good character" ccw. Not "shall issue". I like "stand your ground" in your home, not out and about.

So, this law should be changed from its current state?

Yesterday I argued for an interpretation of the law that would allow prosecution in this case.

You didn't really address the wording of the law, though. The law has no requirement to stand. It gives the right to stand, and not flee, if you are in a place where you have a right to be when the altercation begins.

Since I'm going to continue to advocate for self defense rights, I'm going to call in a favor at a legal firm I do some work for. I'd like to see if my reading could work to charge this guy, at least in theory.

I really don't think you're reading it right. I also think that your reading of it would lead to bad cases on the other side, where, if you were walking towards someone at any point, you gave up your right of self-defense.

185 ReamWorks SKG  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 7:00:45am

re: #184 Gus

I love the video, but I think he's pulling our legs.

186 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 7:02:06am

re: #176 Captain Senseless

Sorry, I meant to say contemporary non-christian sources. Once the 'story' is out we can expect all kinds of 'vindications' from later sources. There are people who believe the Holy Grail is a historical item.

I wouldn't dsmiss christian sources altogether as evidence but at the same time there's no point denying that it can be problematic; I certainly don't see anything to suggest that arguing about it's value is akin to creationist style denial of reality.

Nobody says they're not problematic or should be taken at face value in every detail.

We have:
- Paul's epistles, ca 50-60 CE;
- the gospel sources, with the earliest being "Mark" (ca. 70 CE);
- Josephus, which while not contemporary to Jesus, is both very early and reliable as a historian (with all "buts").

These sources place burden of proof on the mythicists. They must show why the sources should be interpreted not in a prima facie way, but rather in a way that excludes the historical Jesus.

These sources are quite close to the time period in which the historical Jesus was supposed to live, so the mythicists have a burden of proof of showing why we must choose to accept that the myth arose in such a short time.

These sources also mention the real people connected to Jesus. I omit the discussion of Josephus' controversial Testimonium, but in another place he also mentions Jesus, as James the Just's brother, while describing James' death. This passage was quoted by Origen in 2nd century, the same author also wrote that Josephus denied Jesus' messiahship, which makes it more than likely that Origen's very early manuscript had not been tampered with (and the burden of proof for this is again on the mythicists).

The same James, "the Lord's brother", is indepedently mentioned in Paul's epistles (which are a contemporary source for James' existence).

These kinds of ties to real people represent very strong evidence in themselves.

---

While I agree that in general mythicism should not be compared to creationism, I only disagreed with you in that it cannot be compared "on any level". I think there are levels on which a reasonable comparison is possible.

187 Gus  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 7:03:00am

re: #185 ReamWorks

I love the video, but I think he's pulling our legs.

Could be.

188 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 7:03:51am

Hey all!

Indiana Legislature passed a law that says you have the right to resist police if they enter your home illegally.

Why would such a law be necessary you ask? Well because the Indiana Supreme Court previously decided that you have no right to resist police if they enter your home illegally.

So, it seems the whole Castle Doctrine and Right to Self-Defence concept is a valid topic of discussion. In the USA in 2012.

How is everyone this am?

189 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 7:05:33am

re: #188 ggt

Hey all!

Indiana Legislature passed a law that says you have the right to resist police if they enter your home illegally.

Why would such a law be necessary you ask? Well because the Indiana Supreme Court previously decided that you have no right to resist police if they enter your home illegally.

So, it seems the whole Castle Doctrine and Right to Self-Defence concept is a valid topic of discussion. In the USA in 2012.

How is everyone this am?

Singular and belligerent towards Excel Spreadsheets.

190 Gus  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 7:05:45am

2 US men arrested on gay cruise in Caribbean
Local police boarded ship on suspicion of indecent exposure

ROSEAU, Dominica — Two California men on a gay cruise of the Caribbean were arrested Wednesday in Dominica, where sex between two men is illegal.

Police Constable John George said police boarded the cruise ship and arrested the two men on suspicion of indecent exposure and "buggery," a term equivalent to sodomy on the island. He identified the men as John Robert Hart, 41, and Dennis Jay Mayer, 43, but did not provide their hometowns.

George said the men were seen having sex on the Celebrity Summit cruise ship by someone on the dock.

The two were later charged with indecent exposure and are scheduled to appear before a magistrate Thursday morning. If found guilty, they could be fined $370 each and face up to six months in jail...

191 Gus  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 7:06:12am

Humans.

192 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 7:08:12am

re: #188 ggt

Hey all!

Indiana Legislature passed a law that says you have the right to resist police if they enter your home illegally.

Why would such a law be necessary you ask? Well because the Indiana Supreme Court previously decided that you have no right to resist police if they enter your home illegally.

So, it seems the whole Castle Doctrine and Right to Self-Defence concept is a valid topic of discussion. In the USA in 2012.

How is everyone this am?

Tired beyond all reason.

193 ReamWorks SKG  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 7:09:07am

A "castle doctrine" law that clarified defending yourself when you're in your own home and you're confronted with a stranger is a lot different from Florida's "stand your ground" law which lets you shoot anyone, anywhere!

(And good luck resisting the police in your home!)

I once woke up at night to my alarm going off. (It turned out to be a false alarm.)

But I didn't run to my safe to get the gun! I opened the patio door of my bedroom and got out of my house! That seemed like the best way to protect myself.

194 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 7:09:16am

re: #190 Gus

2 US men arrested on gay cruise in Caribbean
Local police boarded ship on suspicion of indecent exposure

buggery?

Nice Victorian word.

/

195 Decatur Deb  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 7:10:08am

re: #193 ReamWorks

A "castle doctrine" law that clarified defending yourself when you're in your own home and you're confronted with a stranger is a lot different from Florida's "stand your ground" law which lets you shoot anyone, anywhere!

(And good luck resisting the police in your home!)

I once woke up at night to my alarm going off. (It turned out to be a false alarm.)

But I didn't run to my safe to get the gun! I opened the patio door of my bedroom and got out of my house! That seemed like the best way to protect myself.

I take it you're pro-pajama.

196 ReamWorks SKG  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 7:10:31am

re: #195 Decatur Deb

No! I'm just not bashful.

197 Gus  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 7:12:52am

Derp!

I prefer an Etch A Sketch over a Marxist #vetthepresident #vetthepres

198 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 7:13:47am

re: #196 ReamWorks

No! I'm just not bashful.

That leaves six other options.

199 Gus  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 7:14:04am

Why are wingers, including self described "patriots", such sad sacks?

200 Decatur Deb  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 7:14:59am

re: #196 ReamWorks

No! I'm just not bashful.

In the middle of one night I was awakened by definite noises in our foyer. I had not so much as a baseball bat to hand, so I charged down the hall yelling and flipping on lights. (I am anti-pajama).

Wife had coordinated a late arrival with our college-age daughter, without telling me..

201 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 7:15:00am

Now, on the Nature and Existence or non-Existence of G-d,

I give you Dun Scotus. Blessed John, from whom we have the phrase Dunce Cap.

The existence of God can be proven only a posteriori, through its effects. The Causal Argument he gives for the existence of God says that an infinity of things that are essentially ordered is impossible, as the totality of caused things that are essentially caused is itself caused, and so it is caused by some cause which is not a part of the totality, for then it would be the cause of itself; for the whole totality of dependent things is cause, and not on anything belonging to that totality. The argument is relevant for Scotus' conception of metaphysical inquiry into being by searching the ways into which beings relate to each other.

202 Gus  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 7:15:04am
203 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 7:16:24am

What is this fascination with the Etch-A-Sketch?

204 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 7:16:42am

re: #200 Decatur Deb

In the middle of one night I was awakened by definite noises in our foyer. I had not so much as a baseball bat to hand, so I charged down the hall yelling and flipping on lights. (I am anti-pajama).

Wife had coordinated a late arrival with our college-age daughter, without telling me..

Did you just scare her, or did she have a camera readily available?
:)

205 Decatur Deb  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 7:17:20am

re: #204 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste

Did you just scare her, or did she have a camera readily available?
:)

Had the advantage of surprise.

206 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 7:17:49am

re: #203 ggt

What is this fascination with the Etch-A-Sketch?

Because it's an all too apt comparison to Romney's "I can be anything to anyone given a minute to erase and then redraw my position on your pet issue" campaign strategy.

207 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 7:21:29am

re: #206 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste

Because it's an all too apt comparison to Romney's "I can be anything to anyone given a minute to erase and then redraw my position on your pet issue" campaign strategy.

ah!

208 Gus  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 7:22:31am

re: #207 ggt

ah!

Youtube Video
209 Cannadian Club Akbar  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 7:23:31am

Morning Honcos.

210 BongCrodny  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 7:26:58am

re: #192 thedopefishlives

Tired beyond all reason.

"Beyond all reason" seems to be a good way to describe this country over the past few years.

211 Aye Pod  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 7:27:21am

Yaay! First hot sunny day of the year here in Scotland. We're off out into the garden for a few beers. Catch you all later :)

212 Aye Pod  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 7:30:03am

re: #186 Anti-Pope of Darwinism

Nobody says they're not problematic or should be taken at face value in every detail.

We have:
- Paul's epistles, ca 50-60 CE;
- the gospel sources, with the earliest being "Mark" (ca. 70 CE);
- Josephus, which while not contemporary to Jesus, is both very early and reliable as a historian (with all "buts").

These sources place burden of proof on the mythicists. They must show why the sources should be interpreted not in a prima facie way, but rather in a way that excludes the historical Jesus.

These sources are quite close to the time period in which the historical Jesus was supposed to live, so the mythicists have a burden of proof of showing why we must choose to accept that the myth arose in such a short time.

These sources also mention the real people connected to Jesus. I omit the discussion of Josephus' controversial Testimonium, but in another place he also mentions Jesus, as James the Just's brother, while describing James' death. This passage was quoted by Origen in 2nd century, the same author also wrote that Josephus denied Jesus' messiahship, which makes it more than likely that Origen's very early manuscript had not been tampered with (and the burden of proof for this is again on the mythicists).

The same James, "the Lord's brother", is indepedently mentioned in Paul's epistles (which are a contemporary source for James' existence).

These kinds of ties to real people represent very strong evidence in themselves.

---

While I agree that in general mythicism should not be compared to creationism, I only disagreed with you in that it cannot be compared "on any level". I think there are levels on which a reasonable comparison is possible.

And you said that with a straight face. Fair play ;-) Later.

213 brennant  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 7:31:00am

re: #211 Captain Senseless

[Napoleon Dynamite] Jealous! [/Napoleon Dynamite]

214 Aye Pod  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 7:41:20am

Btw, in caSE YOU WERE WONDERING, i THOUGHT THAT WAS A GOOD REPLY, sERGEY :)

215 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 7:41:57am

re: #211 Captain Senseless

Yaay! First hot sunny day of the year here in Scotland. We're off out into the garden for a few beers. Catch you all later :)

First and only?/

216 Aye Pod  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 7:42:32am

Oops - Windows has detected that I am already too pished tae operate this masheen.

217 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 7:43:06am

re: #214 Captain Senseless

Btw, in caSE YOU WERE WONDERING, i THOUGHT THAT WAS A GOOD REPLY, sERGEY :)

I HEAR YOU! ;)

218 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 7:44:39am

Just to make things really clear:

My above post #188 about Indiana's Supreme Court Case and the "Stand Your Ground" legislation are first and foremost racially motivated.

Seems we just can't get past George Orwell.

219 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 7:45:05am

re: #216 Captain Senseless

Oops - Windows has detected that I am already too pished tae operate this masheen.

I second Obdicut's motion that computers should come pre-equipped with a breathalyzer, with the sites you're permitted to comment/post on ranked by how drunk you are. Completely sober, Twitter/Facebook. Mildly inebriated, LGF. And so on, all the way down to "completely trashed", YouTube.

220 Gus  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 7:46:50am
221 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 7:47:27am

The racist roots of Gun Control:

There are other examples of remarkable honesty from the state supreme courts on this subject, of which the finest is probably Florida Supreme Court Justice Buford's concurring opinion in Watson v. Stone (1941), in which a conviction for carrying a handgun without a permit was overturned, because the handgun was in the glove compartment of a car:

I know something of the history of this legislation. The original Act of 1893 was passed when there was a great influx of negro laborers in this State drawn here for the purpose of working in turpentine and lumber camps. The same condition existed when the Act was amended in 1901 and the Act was passed for the purpose of disarming the negro laborers and to thereby reduce the unlawful homicides that were prevalent in turpentine and saw-mill camps and to give the white citizens in sparsely settled areas a better feeling of security. The statute was never intended to be applied to the white population and in practice has never been so applied. [35]

222 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 7:54:19am

re: #219 thedopefishlives

I second Obdicut's motion that computers should come pre-equipped with a breathalyzer, with the sites you're permitted to comment/post on ranked by how drunk you are. Completely sober, Twitter/Facebook. Mildly inebriated, LGF. And so on, all the way down to "completely trashed", YouTube.

IMHO, as long as one doesn't "drink and delete", any errors can be fixed and data recovered.

223 compound_Idaho  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 8:00:36am

re: #180 Daniel Ballard

I come down pretty much right where you do on these issues. I have not made up my mind on the "stand your ground" idea. I do not know what the response time of the sheriff is to the compound, but if there were an intruder, I am quite sure it would not be fast enough.

BTW A few years ago my neighbor up the road was shot and wounded by an intruder. After running the intruder off, he drove himself to the hospital.

224 Gus  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 8:01:18am

Dumb headline of the day.

'Muamba was in effect dead for 78 minutes despite 15 heart shocks'

Not "dead."

225 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 8:03:34am

re: #224 Gus

Dumb headline of the day.

'Muamba was in effect dead for 78 minutes despite 15 heart shocks'

Not "dead."

undead?

226 Shropshire_Slasher  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 8:05:35am

re: #225 ggt

So it begins!
I'm so excited!
I can't belive it is here!

227 Gus  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 8:07:15am

re: #225 ggt

undead?

They were trying to resuscitate him for 78 minutes. Whether it was done mechanically or physically is unknown. If could be done physically like CPR. But blood and oxygen must be maintained to the organs and brain. Just because the heart stops pumping doesn't mean you're dead in these cases. If they stop your heart and hook you up to a heart/lung machine for surgery is another example. That's not "death".

228 Gus  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 8:08:42am

Otherwise this kind of language perpetuates superstitions and is in fact anti-science.

229 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 8:08:59am

re: #226 Tommy's cone of shame

So it begins!
I'm so excited!
I can't belive it is here!

zombie apocolypse!

230 Obdicut  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 8:09:16am

re: #228 Gus

The question of when a human being is medically dead is still an open one, but it's clearly not when the heart stops.

231 Shropshire_Slasher  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 8:10:56am

re: #190 Gus

I get a kick out of the pastor:

The pastor of Dominica's Trinity Baptist Church, Randy Rodney, praised the police for their intervention.

"I am very pleased that the police were called in and have arrested the people in question. I have warned about gay tourism and its implications for Dominica

Afraid of what? Redecorating?

232 Daniel Ballard  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 8:11:25am

re: #183 Obdicut

So, this law should be changed from its current state?

You didn't really address the wording of the law, though. The law has no requirement to stand. It gives the right to stand, and not flee, if you are in a place where you have a right to be when the altercation begins.

I really don't think you're reading it right. I also think that your reading of it would lead to bad cases on the other side, where, if you were walking towards someone at any point, you gave up your right of self-defense.

Actually I did address the key phrases and challenged the handling of the incident because "reasonable" has been stretched too far. IMO. But I'll admit I was apparently unpersuasive. So I'm going to see how far off I am by asking some qualified legal folks about it. I have the contacts and I think I can find the time, these are the issues I make time for.

One thing I hope does not happen is that we get a big backlash (good so far but wait) and then people who defend themselves legit have an overwhelming burden of proof. That would really suck. And the very legitimate racial concerns only make the whole thing harder to sort out in terms of policy long term.

But let me defend my read this way, if I was a prosecutor in Florida and looked at this and went after Zimmerman just like any suspected criminal case how far out of line would I be? Would I be fired for negligence? Be embarrassed in court? I rather doubt those two would happen.

233 Gus  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 8:14:01am

re: #230 Obdicut

The question of when a human being is medically dead is still an open one, but it's clearly not when the heart stops.

It's like when people "come back to life" at funerals. They don't really come back to life since they weren't dead to begin with. Extremely rare.

234 Gus  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 8:15:40am

re: #233 Gus

It's like when people "come back to life" at funerals. They don't really come back to life since they weren't dead to begin with. Extremely rare.

Which of course would be in cultures that don't perform any mortuary techniques -- i.e. embalming.

235 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 8:15:45am

re: #226 Tommy's cone of shame

So it begins!
I'm so excited!
I can't belive it is here!

I, for one, welcome our new undead overlords.

236 Obdicut  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 8:19:12am

re: #232 Daniel Ballard

Actually I did address the key phrases and challenged the handling of the incident because "reasonable" has been stretched too far. IMO.

But reasonable is always going to be squishy, and in a case where there is only one surviving witness-- the shooter-- it will be highly abuseable. That is one of the main problems with this law-- it makes it safer to murder someone than it does to assault them.

But I'll admit I was apparently unpersuasive. So I'm going to see how far off I am by asking some qualified legal folks about it. I have the contacts and I think I can find the time, these are the issues I make time for.

Do you understand my main point? You are saying the law requires you to stand, and not pursue, but it doesn't. All the law requires is that you be in a place that you have a right to be, and not be engaging in a crime, when the 'attack' begins. That is all. The 'standing' part is the right granted, not a requirement of the law.

One thing I hope does not happen is that we get a big backlash (good so far but wait) and then people who defend themselves legit have an overwhelming burden of proof.

I think if someone has the ability to retreat and does not use it, instead choosing to use lethal force, they should have to prove why that course of action was legitimate.

But let me defend my read this way, if I was a prosecutor in Florida and looked at this and went after Zimmerman just like any suspected criminal case how far out of line would I be? Would I be fired for negligence? Be embarrassed in court? I rather doubt those two would happen.

We'll see. Previous cases have wound up with rulings for people who clearly pursued and initiated the confrontation and then shot the other person. I don't see how this case is substantially different. So, so far, prosecutors have been embarrassed in court thanks to this law, yes.

237 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 8:19:35am

re: #230 Obdicut

The question of when a human being is medically dead is still an open one, but it's clearly not when the heart stops.

Clinical death is when the heart stops, which is why some people use the unnecessarily confusing language.

238 NJDhockeyfan  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 8:21:07am

re: #230 Obdicut

The question of when a human being is medically dead is still an open one, but it's clearly not when the heart stops.

It's when a human being is brain dead. I know quite a few still walking.

239 Gus  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 8:23:18am

re: #237 Anti-Pope of Darwinism

Clinical death is when the heart stops, which is why some people use the unnecessarily confusing language.

That would be the more correct term. In that he was "clinically dead" for 78 minutes. But I'm not sure actually since they were maintaining blood flow in the patient.

The purpose of cardiopulmonary resuscitation (CPR) during cardiac arrest is ideally reversal of the clinically dead state by restoration of blood circulation and breathing. However there is great variation in the effectiveness of CPR for this purpose. Blood pressure is very low during manual CPR,[24] resulting in only a ten minute average extension of survival.[25] Yet there are cases of patients regaining consciousness during CPR while still in full cardiac arrest.[26] In absence of cerebral function monitoring or frank return to consciousness, the neurological status of patients undergoing CPR is intrinsically uncertain. It is somewhere between the state of clinical death and a normal functioning state.

Patients supported by methods that certainly maintain enough blood circulation and oxygenation for sustaining life during stopped heartbeat and breathing, such as cardiopulmonary bypass, are not customarily considered to be clinically dead. All parts of the body except the heart and lungs continue to function normally. Clinical death occurs only if machines providing sole circulatory support are turned off.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clinical_death#Life_support_during_clinical_death

240 Obdicut  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 8:24:02am

re: #238 NJDhockeyfan

It's when a human being is brain dead.

Actually even that isn't strictly true. Extreme hypothermia can cause a complete (detectable) cessation of brain function but the person can recover. Some drugs can cause a similar effect.

It's all a rich tapestry.

241 Gus  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 8:24:46am

re: #240 Obdicut

Actually even that isn't strictly true. Extreme hypothermia can cause a complete (detectable) cessation of brain function but the person can recover. Some drugs can cause a similar effect.

It's all a rich tapestry.

It's a grey area. ;)

242 Obdicut  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 8:25:28am

re: #241 Gus

Have you read Ian M. Banks' novels, by the way? I think you'd like them.

The "Grey Area" is the name of a spaceship in one of them, a spaceship of dubious morality.

243 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 8:25:29am

re: #240 Obdicut

Then it's when the brain is dead irreversibly.

244 Daniel Ballard  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 8:27:36am

re: #236 Obdicut

We understand each other fine. No need to re hash any of that save for folks that care about it and did not see our exchange yesterday. Now is where I leave it be pending further study. And take care of some real world biz this am.

I'll be lurking.

245 Gus  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 8:27:54am

Bring out your dead!

246 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 8:28:17am

re: #245 Gus

Bring out your dead!

But I'm not dead yet!

247 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 8:28:56am

re: #241 Gus

It's a grey area. ;)

in gray cells!

248 Obdicut  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 8:29:03am

re: #244 Daniel Ballard

Okay, well, I don't really understand if you actually think the law has a requirement to be standing, which you were arguing yesterday, or not.

249 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 8:29:14am

re: #246 Anti-Pope of Darwinism

But I'm not dead yet!

I'm thinking of going for a walk!
(actually I am. Almost lunch time.)

250 Gus  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 8:29:17am

[Link: www.whitehouse.gov...]

251 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 8:29:34am

re: #246 Anti-Pope of Darwinism

But I'm not dead yet!

Isn't that a song?

252 Gus  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 8:30:03am

Watch that.

253 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 8:30:14am

re: #248 Obdicut

Okay, well, I don't really understand if you actually think the law has a requirement to be standing, which you were arguing yesterday, or not.

Well a "Prone Your Ground" bill would just not sound right, would it?
;)

254 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 8:30:20am

re: #251 ggt

Isn't that a song?

Youtube Video
255 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 8:30:23am

re: #252 Gus

Watch that.

am

256 Gus  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 8:31:48am

re: #255 ggt

am

I posted a link above but forgot about it. :)

257 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 8:32:25am

re: #256 Gus

I posted a link above but forgot about it. :)

need a little more RAM in your little gray cells?

258 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 8:33:29am

I could do without the John Phillip Sousa music at the end.

259 Gus  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 8:33:54am

re: #258 ggt

I could do without the John Phillip Sousa music at the end.

I love that chit. ;)

260 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 8:35:29am

re: #259 Gus

I love that chit. ;)

So last century.

261 Gus  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 8:37:11am

Like clockwork. The far-left and the far-right is already complaining. We're a nation of whiners. Forget "can do" everything is one big giant bitch and moan session where everyone's a freaking expert.

262 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 8:38:00am

re: #254 Anti-Pope of Darwinism

[Embedded content]

I was thinking of Styx, but I like your reference better. Much better.

263 Gus  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 8:38:22am

Mostly the far-right. Who incidentally now includes the official Republican Party.

264 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 8:40:02am

re: #263 Gus

Mostly the far-right. Who incidentally now includes the official Republican Party.

far-right? How about fallen off the flat earth.

265 Gus  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 8:41:32am

re: #264 ggt

far-right? How about fallen off the flat earth.

Extremism will do that. Keep walking in that one direction and sooner or later you fall off the edge of this planet.

//

266 Killgore Trout  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 8:41:46am

re: #261 Gus

Like clockwork. The far-left and the far-right is already complaining. We're a nation of whiners. Forget "can do" everything is one big giant bitch and moan session where everyone's a freaking expert.

Was he speaking at some sort of oil pipeline facility?

267 Gus  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 8:42:16am

re: #266 Killgore Trout

Was he speaking at some sort of oil pipeline facility?

Yep. Cushing.

268 Killgore Trout  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 8:44:31am

Burrito Making In Space

Youtube Video
269 Gus  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 8:50:00am

The idea that Keystone XL would "lower gas prices" is, well. What's the word I'm looking for?

270 erik_t  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 8:50:26am

re: #269 Gus

The idea that Keystone XL would "lower gas prices" is, well. What's the word I'm looking for?

Dumb dumb dumb dumb dumb.

271 Gus  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 8:50:46am

re: #270 erik_t

Dumb dumb dumb dumb dumb.

Wait! I got it! BULLSHIT!

272 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 8:51:32am

All the rhetoric about the price of gas is bullshit.

273 Kronocide  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 8:55:59am

re: #272 ggt

All the rhetoric about the price of gas is bullshit.

It's likely it will be addressed in a presidential debate. That should be a laugh.

274 dragonfire1981  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 8:57:08am

The craziness continues in Arizona:

Sherriff Arpaio: Media "suppressing" me is "biggest censorship blackout in U.S. history'

275 Gus  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 9:02:31am
276 Gus  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 9:02:59am

Image: doomed_tennessee.jpg

277 Gus  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 9:03:52am

Mind boggling.

278 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 9:04:09am

re: #275 Gus

I agree that it is grrr.

279 Kronocide  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 9:05:18am

Good to see the GOP focused on fiscal responsibility by shutting down government via starvation, slut shaming, and teaching creationism.

280 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 9:07:39am

MC Hawking - Fuck the creationists

Youtube Video
281 Gus  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 9:07:42am

re: #278 Anti-Pope of Darwinism

I agree that it is grrr.

Scopes. Coming up next! Jim Crow.

282 AK-47%  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 9:08:00am

re: #190 Gus

Be aware of the laws of the country you are visiting. And do not take our US standards of rights for granted...even in the USA.

283 Gus  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 9:09:24am

re: #282 Second Amendment Renegation

Be aware of the laws of the country you are visiting. And do not take our US standards of rights for granted...even in the USA.

True. Still doesn't make it right. Even if there are other countries that would levy diabolical punishments. That's what led me to say, "humans."

284 Gus  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 9:10:26am
285 Obdicut  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 9:11:09am

re: #284 Gus

A new version of me is now available, includes less pants.

286 Gus  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 9:11:56am

re: #285 Obdicut

A new version of me is now available, includes less pants.

I actually went back and installed an old version of Tweetdeck. I really don't use it much.

287 Obdicut  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 9:13:59am

re: #286 Gus

I suck at social media. I haven't even updated my linkedin profile in like a year. I really should.

288 AK-47%  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 9:15:56am

re: #287 Obdicut

I suck at social media. I haven't even updated my linkedin profile in like a year. I really should.

I haven't either. Since then I have forgotten my password and changed my e-mail address, so I probably cannot even get back into it

289 NJDhockeyfan  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 9:16:06am

John Edwards (D-ouchebag) in the news again...


John Edwards is First Name Uncovered in 'Millionaire Madam' Investigation

MANHATTAN — A call girl working for alleged "Millionaire Madam" Anna Gristina told investigators she was paid to have sex with former U.S. Sen. John Edwards when he was in New York raising money for his failed presidential bid, DNAinfo has learned.

Edwards is the first big name to surface in connection to Gristina's alleged prostitution scheme run out of an Upper East Side apartment.

His lawyers were contacted by DNAinfo, but did not comment.

290 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 9:16:23am

re: #287 Obdicut

I suck at social media. I haven't even updated my linkedin profile in like a year. I really should.

Make sure you update your Myspace too.

291 Decatur Deb  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 9:17:04am

From the Daily Beast site, a ranking of states by NCIS gun checks:

[Link: www.thedailybeast.com...]

292 Buck  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 9:17:25am

“Stand Your Ground” Author: Trayvon Martin's Alleged Attacker Not Covered Under Law I Wrote.

[Link: www.foxnews.com...]

In other words don't blame "Stand Your Ground".

293 Obdicut  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 9:18:08am

re: #292 Buck

Did you stop to consider that, if the law is massively flawed, maybe the guy who 'wrote' it-- or rather, who accepted ALEC's boilerplate-- isn't the best judge of it?

294 Gus  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 9:18:43am

The Breitbartians are very angry this morning!

I know. That's kind of redundant.

295 Kronocide  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 9:19:09am

Laws don't kill people, people kill people.

296 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 9:19:18am

re: #291 Decatur Deb

From the Daily Beast site, a ranking of states by NCIS gun checks:

[Link: www.thedailybeast.com...]

These are legally armed?

I can't believe NJ ranks 50. No way, no how.

297 erik_t  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 9:19:22am

re: #292 Buck

“Stand Your Ground” Author: Trayvon Martin's Alleged Attacker Not Covered Under Law I Wrote.

[Link: www.foxnews.com...]

In other words don't blame "Stand Your Ground".

I put out too much cat food last night, and Cat didn't eat it all, so now I have ants eating all of the cat food. But I didn't intend to feed the ants, therefore the ants did not eat any cat food.

298 Decatur Deb  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 9:20:18am

re: #294 Gus

The Breitbartians are very angry this morning!

I know. That's kind of redundant.

Makes me think of a Douglas Adams planet populated by rageophages.

299 iossarian  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 9:20:41am

re: #292 Buck

“Stand Your Ground” Author: Trayvon Martin's Alleged Attacker Not Covered Under Law I Wrote.

[Link: www.foxnews.com...]

In other words don't blame "Stand Your Ground".

Buck, how wonderful to see you on LGF again.

How are the courts doing striking down all these unconstitutional state laws restricting access to legal medical procedures?

300 Gus  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 9:20:53am

re: #298 Decatur Deb

Makes me think of a Douglas Adams planet populated by rageophages.

Racist, sexist, anti-gay! Breitbart bigots go away!

//

301 Decatur Deb  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 9:21:12am

re: #296 ggt

These are legally armed?

I can't believe NJ ranks 50. No way, no how.

It's not all Paulie Walnuts, y'know.

302 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 9:21:28am

re: #298 Decatur Deb

Makes me think of a Douglas Adams planet populated by rageophages.

rageophages, I like that.

How about rageophiles.

303 Shropshire_Slasher  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 9:21:54am

re: #297 erik_t

Teehee, didn't think you were going there. In my house, cats wolf down their dinner, regurgitates, dog cleans up.

304 Gus  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 9:22:26am

re: #302 ggt

rageophages, I like that.

How about rageophiles.

Rageaphilia

305 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 9:23:05am

re: #304 Gus

Rageaphilia

Drama Queens with rageaphilia.

306 Gus  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 9:23:50am

re: #305 ggt

Drama Queens with rageaphilia.

Autorageaphilia

307 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 9:24:04am

re: #291 Decatur Deb

From the Daily Beast site, a ranking of states by NCIS gun checks:

[Link: www.thedailybeast.com...]

Need to overlay that list with the "restrictiveness" of gun laws in each state.

308 iossarian  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 9:25:52am

chirp chirp go the crickets

309 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 9:26:15am

re: #308 iossarian

chirp chirp go the crickets

ding, ding, ding went the bell . . .

310 Decatur Deb  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 9:27:11am

re: #307 ggt

Need to overlay that list with the "restrictiveness" of gun laws in each state.

Yeah. We're #11, that's barely enough to make the Confederate quarter-finals. (The list actually is dominated by the Old West.)

311 Decatur Deb  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 9:27:54am

BBIAM

312 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 9:28:26am

Image: 560711_384282214928908_153964677960664_1343791_171787202_n.jpg

313 NJDhockeyfan  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 9:28:47am

How do these idiots expect more support if they pull shitty stunts like this?

Occupy Protester Dumped Tub of Feces: Police

Police say an Occupy Wall Street protester dumped a tub of human waste down a public stairwell and inside a bank vestibule, and got caught on video.

Police said Occupy Wall Street protesters were captured on surveillance video dragging a large receptacle of human urine and feces to an open-air plaza at the corner of Nassau and Cedar streets last Wednesday evening, just before 8 p.m.

They then poured the waste down a set of stairs there, police said.

About 20 minutes later, one of the protesters entered a Chase ATM vestibule on Water Street and poured human waste inside there, police said.

A witness gave police the license plate number of the van used to transport the waste, and police were able to match the plate to its registered owner, a Philadelphia man.

He was arrested on Wall Street Saturday on charges of unlawful possession of noxious matter and aggravated unlicensed operation of motor vehicle.

Police also recovered a stun gun from inside his vehicle.

314 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 9:29:23am

re: #310 Decatur Deb

Yeah. We're #11, that's barely enough to make the Confederate quarter-finals. (The list actually is dominated by the Old West.)

#1 is KY which does have very restrictive gun laws
#50 is NJ which does.

So, I think the stats about legal gun ownership do not reflect total gun ownership.

315 Lidane  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 9:30:46am

ZOMG! RINO!

Kay Bailey Hutchison Defends Planned Parenthood, Says Organization Provides Critical Preventive Care

Why do these people wait until they're about to leave office before they gain any sort of spine? WTF.

316 Daniel Ballard  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 9:30:58am

re: #292 Buck

“Stand Your Ground” Author: Trayvon Martin's Alleged Attacker Not Covered Under Law I Wrote.

[Link: www.foxnews.com...]

In other words don't blame "Stand Your Ground".

You might be right. If all true, my read on this just might prevail.
But in any case the law needs to be narrowed in scope. If I was teaching a class today, for Floridians wih CCW's, I would instruct them that they must not count on immunity if they did anything like follow or pursue the threat.
From Bucks link
""The information that has been publicly reported concerning Trayvon Martin's death indicates that the castle doctrine may not be applicable to justify the actions of the attacker, Mr. Zimmerman.

Media stories sharing the transcripts of the 911 tapes from the evening of the incident clearly show that Mr. Zimmerman was instructed by authorities to remain in his vehicle and to cease pursuit of Mr. Martin. George Zimmerman seems to have ignored the direction of the authorities and continued his pursuit of Mr. Martin.

Mr. Zimmerman's unnecessary pursuit and confrontation of Trayvon Martin elevated the prospect of a violent episode and does not seem to be an act of self-defense as defined by the castle doctrine. There is no protection in the "Stand Your Ground" law for anyone who pursues and confronts people."

317 AK-47%  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 9:31:31am

re: #315 Lidane

Kay Bailey Hutchison Defends Planned Parenthood, Says Organization Provides Critical Preventive Care

Why do these people wait until they're about to leave office before they gain any sort of spine? WTF.

Spine is useless if you have been politically kneecapped...

318 erik_t  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 9:31:33am

re: #313 NJDhockeyfan

How do these idiots expect more support if they pull shitty stunts like this?

Occupy Protester Dumped Tub of Feces: Police

They don't, because they're idiots, and support for the current weird-fringy incarnation of OWS is minimal.

Next.

319 Obdicut  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 9:31:54am

re: #316 Daniel Ballard

Again: Are you saying that the law requires you to 'stand'? Because it really clearly does not.

There is no protection in the "Stand Your Ground" law for anyone who pursues and confronts people."

But there is, unless it's somehow illegal to pursue someone in a public place. Is that your contention?

320 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 9:32:10am

re: #316 Daniel Ballard

You might be right. If all true, my read on this just might prevail.
But in any case the law needs to be narrowed in scope. If I was teaching a class today, for Floridians wih CCW's, I would instruct them that they must not count on immunity if they did anything like follow or pursue the threat.
From Bucks link
""The information that has been publicly reported concerning Trayvon Martin's death indicates that the castle doctrine may not be applicable to justify the actions of the attacker, Mr. Zimmerman.

Media stories sharing the transcripts of the 911 tapes from the evening of the incident clearly show that Mr. Zimmerman was instructed by authorities to remain in his vehicle and to cease pursuit of Mr. Martin. George Zimmerman seems to have ignored the direction of the authorities and continued his pursuit of Mr. Martin.

Mr. Zimmerman's unnecessary pursuit and confrontation of Trayvon Martin elevated the prospect of a violent episode and does not seem to be an act of self-defense as defined by the castle doctrine. There is no protection in the "Stand Your Ground" law for anyone who pursues and confronts people."

EXACTLY!

321 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 9:32:42am

WTF, Sarkozy? Fuck you, idiotic POS.

MSNBC Video

"From now on, any person who habitually consults websites that advocate terrorism or that call for hatred and violence will be criminally punished," Sarkozy said in a televised address after police shot dead an al Qaeda-inspired gunman who had killed seven people.

322 Mocking Jay  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 9:32:57am

re: #292 Buck

“Stand Your Ground” Author: Trayvon Martin's Alleged Attacker Not Covered Under Law I Wrote.

[Link: www.foxnews.com...]

In other words don't blame "Stand Your Ground".

If that's the case, then he should have done a better job actually writing the fucking thing. A number of judges are interpreting it incorrectly? I don't think so.

323 Obdicut  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 9:33:08am

re: #321 Anti-Pope of Darwinism

Does 'consult' just mean 'visit'?

324 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 9:33:37am

HAVE A GREAT DAY ALL!

stay away from the rageophiles.

325 dragonfire1981  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 9:33:40am

re: #323 Obdicut

Does 'consult' just mean 'visit'?

That's what I take it to mean.

326 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 9:34:11am

re: #323 Obdicut

Does 'consult' just mean 'visit'?

I don't see other reasonable interpretations.

327 Obdicut  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 9:34:29am

re: #325 dragonfire1981

I visit websites that advocate terrorism in order to keep an eye on what the assholes are up to.

328 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 9:36:03am

wait! Did I share this yet?

Balls for Bucks

329 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 9:37:56am

now Sheriff Joe wants Obama's Selective Service card

Maricopa County Sheriff Joe Arpaio has sent a letter to the Director of the U.S. Selective Service System headquarters in Arlington, Virginia requesting the agency to conduct an investigation into Barack Obama's Selective Service registration form from 1980.

This comes after the preliminary findings of Arpaio's six- month investigation that determined it may a forgery.

330 erik_t  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 9:38:02am

re: #323 Obdicut

Does 'consult' just mean 'visit'?

The original language appears to be:

Nicolas Sarkozy a déclaré qu'il voulait que soient punis pénalement les internautes qui se rendent sur les sites faisant l'apologie du terrorisme. Le cadre juridique actuel rend possible une loi en la matière.

Google translate offers the following translations of the relevant portion: who visit, who go to, when traveling to, who proceed to.

331 Obdicut  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 9:39:02am

re: #330 erik_t

Well, that's really stupid. That's like not only criminalizing neo-Nazism, but the study of Nazism.

332 Lidane  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 9:39:11am

re: #329 Pope Ron Polyp XXXVII

now Sheriff Joe wants Obama's Selective Service card

Sheriff Joe should spend his time doing his fucking job in Arizona instead of worrying about whatever conspiracy he believes this week.

Also, way to waste taxpayer money by bothering the feds about the birther nonsense, Joe.

333 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 9:39:33am
« Désormais, toute personne qui consultera de manière habituelle des sites internet qui font l'apologie du terrorisme ou qui appellent à la haine ou à la violence sera punie pénalement », a-t-il annoncé. De même, le fait de se rendre « à l'étranger pour des travaux d'endoctrinement sera punie ». Enfin, « la propagation et l'apologie d'idéologies extrémistes seront réprimées par un délit pénal ».
334 Mocking Jay  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 9:40:31am

So... yathink Drudge is baiting with this headline?

MOHAMMED IS DEAD

335 Eventual Carrion  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 9:41:01am

re: #329 Pope Ron Polyp XXXVII

now Sheriff Joe wants Obama's Selective Service card

Sure thing there Joe, soon as I see Bush the Lessers National Guard records, deal?

336 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 9:41:57am

I really hope what Sarko said was a dumbed down version of "if you frequent such sites we'll look into your activities and you may get in trouble because of what we may find". I really do.

337 AK-47%  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 9:42:17am

re: #321 Anti-Pope of Darwinism

WTF, Sarkozy? Fuck you, idiotic POS.

[Link: www.msnbc.msn.com...]

Sounds like France is going through its own Columbine syndrome: over reacting after the fact to distract from their failures before the fact...

338 Lidane  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 9:43:46am

re: #333 Anti-Pope of Darwinism

OK. I don't speak French but I think I can understand enough without calling in Google Translate. It's not a one time thing, but habitually going to extremist websites that would be punishable, as would going abroad for indoctrination (i.e., a French citizen going to another country to train with Al Qaeda) and promoting and advocating for extremist ideology.

339 Gus  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 9:43:51am

re: #329 Pope Ron Polyp XXXVII

now Sheriff Joe wants Obama's Selective Service card

The new motto of the GOP should be "I'm with stupid." Everything they have done to date with regards to either policy, education, science and campaigning is done to attract the lower common denominator of the American electorate.

340 Killgore Trout  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 9:44:04am

re: #337 Second Amendment Renegation

Sounds like France is going through its own Columbine syndrome: over reacting after the fact to distract from their failures before the fact...

Public reaction could effect upcoming elections. LePenn's FN could gain some ground from this.

341 blueraven  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 9:45:42am

re: #316 Daniel Ballard

You might be right. If all true, my read on this just might prevail.
But in any case the law needs to be narrowed in scope. If I was teaching a class today, for Floridians wih CCW's, I would instruct them that they must not count on immunity if they did anything like follow or pursue the threat.
From Bucks link
""The information that has been publicly reported concerning Trayvon Martin's death indicates that the castle doctrine may not be applicable to justify the actions of the attacker, Mr. Zimmerman.

Media stories sharing the transcripts of the 911 tapes from the evening of the incident clearly show that Mr. Zimmerman was instructed by authorities to remain in his vehicle and to cease pursuit of Mr. Martin. George Zimmerman seems to have ignored the direction of the authorities and continued his pursuit of Mr. Martin.

Mr. Zimmerman's unnecessary pursuit and confrontation of Trayvon Martin elevated the prospect of a violent episode and does not seem to be an act of self-defense as defined by the castle doctrine. There is no protection in the "Stand Your Ground" law for anyone who pursues and confronts people."

But there have been other cases where this defense is being used. An Iraqi vet was shot down at a park, playing basketball with his daughter.

In September 2010, Trevor Dooley stormed into a park near his home outside Tampa, angry because a teenager was skateboarding on the basketball court. Dooley was carrying a .32-caliber semiautomatic handgun in his pants, and it was visible to David James, 41, who was in the park with his 8-year-old daughter. James tried to disarm Dooley, who is now 71, and as the two men tussled on the ground, Dooley shot James in the chest, killing him. Prosecutors, not surprisingly, charged Dooley with manslaughter. But if Dooley's lawyers can convince a judge by next week that he fired the gun because his life was being threatened — that he is therefore protected under Florida's "stand your ground" law — Dooley may well walk away a free man.

Read more: [Link: www.time.com...]

342 AK-47%  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 9:45:43am

re: #339 Gus

The new motto of the GOP should be "I'm with stupid." Everything they have done to date with regards to either policy, education, science and campaigning is done to attract the lower common denominator of the American electorate.

People in Arizona wanted Law and Order writ big, while at the same time refusing to raise taxes to cover it. Sheriff Joe and his reign of imbecility is the logical outcome of that equation.

343 Gus  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 9:46:32am

re: #342 Second Amendment Renegation

People in Arizona wanted Law and Order writ big, while at the same time refusing to raise taxes to cover it. Sheriff Joe and his reign of imbecility is the logical outcome of that equation.

I see him as another symptom. A cell in a mass of cells that form an organism.

344 Gus  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 9:47:30am
345 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 9:48:24am

re: #288 Second Amendment Renegation

I haven't either. Since then I have forgotten my password and changed my e-mail address, so I probably cannot even get back into it

Between linkedin going IPO and them totally screwing up a requested password change I gave up on them. Haven't responded to an invite from it or attempted an update in over a year.

Barely visit Facebook anymore either. Not worth the daily time to me it requires to attempt to keep it that up to date.

346 Mocking Jay  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 9:48:55am

Karl Rove has trouble with full sentences.

As for the killing of Osama bin Laden, Mr. Obama did what virtually any commander in chief would have done in the same situation. Even President Bill Clinton says in the film “that’s the call I would have made.” For this to be portrayed as the epic achievement of the first term tells you how bare the White House cupboards are.

Wow. Bill said that?
Oh, no, of course he didn't.

“He took the harder and the more honorable path. When I saw what had happened, I thought to myself, `I hope that’s the call I would have made.’”

Turdblossom, lying right to your face.

347 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 9:53:56am

re: #338 Lidane

It's not a one time thing, but habitually going to extremist websites that would be punishable

That's what I posted, yes.

348 Mocking Jay  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 9:54:38am

If anyone missed Maddow's segment on Romney's lying, it's worth a watch. Good stuff.

MSNBC Video
349 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 9:55:32am

re: #231 Tommy's cone of shame

I get a kick out of the pastor:

The pastor of Dominica's Trinity Baptist Church, Randy Rodney, praised the police for their intervention.

"I am very pleased that the police were called in and have arrested the people in question. I have warned about gay tourism and its implications for Dominica

Afraid of what? Redecorating?

I can see worrying about sex tourism, but this was just two guys being indiscreet on vacation.

OTOH, having sex in public will get your ass arrested in Southern California, too. Perhaps a citation, and a stern warning to keep it in the hotel room?

350 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 9:55:56am

re: #233 Gus

It's like when people "come back to life" at funerals. They don't really come back to life since they weren't dead to begin with. Extremely rare.

But very dramatic.

351 AK-47%  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 9:59:50am

re: #346 Altar Boy of Darwinism

Karl Rove has trouble with full sentences.

Wow. Bill said that?
Oh, no, of course he didn't.

Turdblossom, lying right to your face.

What call would Dubya have made - had he bothered to switch on his cell phone?

352 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 10:01:28am

re: #292 Buck

“Stand Your Ground” Author: Trayvon Martin's Alleged Attacker Not Covered Under Law I Wrote.

[Link: www.foxnews.com...]

In other words don't blame "Stand Your Ground".

A man was allowed to walk away from shooting an unarmed teenager because of the interpretation of the law by LEOs at the scene, and has not been arrested yet.

This may not be what the author intended to happen, but he was, as you'll note, warned that it was a probable outcome.

353 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 10:01:55am

re: #295 Kronocide

Laws don't kill people, people kill people.

Laws just allow people who kill people to get away with killing people.

354 Mattand  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 10:03:24am

re: #296 ggt

These are legally armed?

I can't believe NJ ranks 50. No way, no how.

Believe it. For all the shit we get from the other 49, a "I must be armed at all times" mentality isn't prevalent here.

355 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 10:04:29am

re: #321 Anti-Pope of Darwinism

WTF, Sarkozy? Fuck you, idiotic POS.

[Link: www.msnbc.msn.com...]

Oh France. Weren't you supposed to be monitoring this guy?

356 abolitionist  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 1:07:26pm

re: #352 SanFranciscoZionist

A man was allowed to walk away from shooting an unarmed teenager because of the interpretation of the law by LEOs at the scene, and has not been arrested yet.

This may not be what the author intended to happen, but he was, as you'll note, warned that it was a probable outcome.

According to a news story I've read (not very many, I admit) Zimmerman was handcuffed at the scene, taken to the Sanford PD, and questioned (further), but then released fairly soon after.


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