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CNN Analyzes 911 Recording for Possible Racial Slur

Evidence of a hate crime?
US News • Views: 30,820

CNN’s Anderson Cooper had a very interesting segment last night on the possible racial slur in the 911 call George Zimmerman made to police before Trayvon Martin died.

Many people believe Zimmerman muttered “these fucking coons.” CNN used state of the art audio editing equipment to clean up the recording as much as possible; the result may not be definitive, but although I was initially skeptical, after hearing this I’m pretty convinced that Zimmerman did indeed use the racial slur.

Judge for yourself:

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248 comments

1 neilk  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 1:35:14pm

In case anyone is wondering why this matters: The Federal authorities are not empowered to prosecute a simple murder case, but they can prosecute a hate crime. In case the local authorities don't step up. You know, for some reason.

2 JeffM70  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 1:37:24pm

Sounds like "fucking coons" to me.

3 AK-47%  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 1:37:53pm

If they get Zimmerman into court over this, it will be a major triumpph for our justice system. If they get a conviction out of it, it will be a minor miracle.

4 Someone Please Beam Me Up!  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 1:38:00pm

...and it would probably help in the civil suit(s) too.

(whispers) those #$%^ vigilantes

5 jamesfirecat  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 1:38:00pm

Finally CNN's abundance of technology is actually useful for something other than confusing us about who is winning on election night!

6 Targetpractice  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 1:40:53pm

Considering the number of times this guy has called 911 since the beginning of this year, I think those calls should also be gone over. I very much doubt this one was a one-time utterance.

7 Big Joe  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 1:40:56pm

I still hear, "He's walking out."

8 AK-47%  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 1:42:14pm

so then they will have to prove that there were no racoons in the neighborhood...

9 Obdicut  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 1:42:21pm

I could still believe it was "He's fucking close".

10 makeitstop  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 1:43:12pm

Sounded like 'fucking coons' to me.

11 Mattand  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 1:43:13pm

I hate to say it, but the audio clean up doesn't mean shit. No different from the "experts" on the ghost hunting shows claiming they've caught spirit voices.

This case is so well known at this point; if you think Zimmerman is racist you'll hear the slur, and if you think he isn't you'll hear nothing.

More grandstanding with tech by CNN for ratings.

12 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 1:49:27pm

But...he had been repeatedly tardy. Tardy!

And he was in possession of refined sugar.

(I'm getting so angry about this.)

13 RurouniKenshin  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 1:49:30pm

To me it does sound very much like "fucking coons." However, I'm also hearing a hard-consonant sound just before the "s" sound at the end. "Fucking" is really clear, but it could have been:

"Fucking close"
"Fucking ****s" (I see we have a filter in place--it's a misogynistic slur that starts with c, I think you can figure it out)
"Fucking punks"
or something similar

That said, from what we've heard of this guy and how he felt about black folk, it would surprise me if it was anything but the racial slur.

14 AK-47%  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 1:49:37pm

re: #11 mattand

I hate to say it, but the audio clean up doesn't mean shit. No different from the "experts" on the ghost hunting shows claiming they've caught spirit voices.

This case is so well known at this point; if you think Zimmerman is racist you'll hear the slur, and if you think he isn't you'll hear nothing.

More grandstanding with tech by CNN for ratings.

You are correct in that this evidence will not stand up in court even if it is admitted.

15 wrenchwench  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 1:50:02pm

That was dumb, Cooper said he's not going to tell us what we're listening for, then the news guy tells us.

16 abolitionist  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 1:51:39pm

If he said it once, I think it unlikely he said it only once. How many times was it he called the Sanford PD. /hint hint

17 Ojoe  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 1:52:25pm

This whole thing is so bad. We all have to get together no matter what our race, and see that justice is done here.

18 Varek Raith  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 1:54:29pm

Sounds like it to my untrained ears.
:/

19 AK-47%  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 1:54:32pm

re: #17 Ojoe

This whole thing is so bad. We all have to get together no matter what our race, and see that justice is done here.

There are several levels of justice to be done here:

First, there are Zimmerman's actions. I am afraid that he has the law on his side: all he needs to do is to make a reasonable case that he felt "threatened"

Then there are the police actions in ignoring or covering up evidence that would not corroborate his story

And then there is the SYG law itself, one which is bound to lead to similar incidents like this in the future.

20 goddamnedfrank  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 1:55:07pm

Somebody should run this though a raw, untrained install of Dragon Naturally Speaking and see if anything pops out.

21 What, me worry?  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 1:56:06pm

I said this last night, and I'll say it again. This case is being tried in the press because they won't arrest this man. It's horrifying to me and I can't begin to think what Trayvon's family feels. This is not justice.

22 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 1:56:41pm

Still as ambiguous as yesterday.

23 Gus  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 1:57:21pm

I hear "punks." At first I thought I heard "co*ns" but after listening to this well over 2 dozen times I'm still hearing "punks." Obviously my opinion won't have an affect with the authorities. The only way I can see for a more proper determination would be to record many samples of George Zimmerman saying the various forms. The legalities of such a process are unknown to me.

24 Targetpractice  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 1:57:39pm

re: #21 Madge

I said this last night, and I'll say it again. This case is being tried in the press because they won't arrest this man. It's horrifying to me and I can't begin to think what Trayvon's family feels. This is not justice.

They won't arrest him primarily because there would be little point by now. Any evidence that might have made more than a circumstantial case against him has been lost due to shoddy police work, so that all we're left with is a hypothetical picture that any decent defense attorney would shred before it ever went to trial.

25 What, me worry?  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 1:57:44pm

re: #19 Second Amendment Renegation

There are several levels of justice to be done here:

First, there are Zimmerman's actions. I am afraid that he has the law on his side: all he needs to do is to make a reasonable case that he felt "threatened"

Then there are the police actions in ignoring or covering up evidence that would not corroborate his story

And then there is the SYG law itself, one which is bound to lead to similar incidents like this in the future.

I don't think he has the law on his side. People who actually support that ridiculous law don't think so either.

26 Ojoe  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 1:58:29pm

re: #23 Gus

I hear "punks." At first I thought I heard "co*ns" but after listening to this well over 2 dozen times I'm still hearing "punks." Obviously my opinion won't have an affect with the authorities. The only way I can see for a more proper determination would be to record many samples of George Zimmerman saying the various forms. The legalities of such a process are unknown to me.

5th amendment would probably prevent that.

27 What, me worry?  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 1:58:51pm

Since Stand Your Ground was passed, "justifiable homicide" has increased 3 fold.

[Link: miami.cbslocal.com...]

[Link: www.tampabay.com...]

[Link: www.palmbeachpost.com...]

28 Gus  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 1:58:56pm

You also now have to contend with wide spread tainting of a potential jury.

29 A Mom Anon  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 1:59:30pm

All those 911 calls,at least the ones released,mirror each other. Young black males,behaving suspicious,there's been a series of break ins in the area,his wife ID'd the guys,etc. Zimmerman has a pattern of behavior here and that should matter. I also find it hard to believe that the cops didn't know who Zimmerman was with all those 911 calls. In alot of communities,people who call 911 habitually are known,there's a file on them. I find it tough to believe the Sanford PD didn't have a clue here.

30 What, me worry?  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 1:59:53pm

re: #28 Gus

You also now have to contend with wide spread tainting of a potential jury.

He's never going to get a fair trial, the longer they wait. We're supposed to be a representative of justice in this country and this is not the way to do it.

31 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 2:00:28pm

re: #11 mattand

There's also a question of a "clean up" possibly altering the sound in a meaningful way. Clean up may be useful when we're dealing with a continuous text where context may help, but I doubt its accuracy to glean a single word.

32 goddamnedfrank  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 2:00:28pm

re: #26 Ojoe

5th amendment would probably prevent that.

Suspects can be required to submit handwriting samples. How is this any different?

33 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 2:01:24pm

First time I've listened to this.

Even with the suggestion of 'coons' put in my head, I am still hearing what sounds to me like 'fucking punks' pretty clearly.

Make of this what you will.

34 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 2:02:22pm

re: #11 mattand

I hate to say it, but the audio clean up doesn't mean shit. No different from the "experts" on the ghost hunting shows claiming they've caught spirit voices.

This case is so well known at this point; if you think Zimmerman is racist you'll hear the slur, and if you think he isn't you'll hear nothing.

More grandstanding with tech by CNN for ratings.

I think Zimmerman is racist.
I still don't hear it.

35 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 2:02:29pm

re: #33 SanFranciscoZionist

First time I've listened to this.

Even with the suggestion of 'coons' put in my head, I am still hearing what sounds to me like 'fucking punks' pretty clearly.

Make of this what you will.

I've relistened with your and Gus' suggestion, and it certainly sounds possible.

36 Varek Raith  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 2:02:35pm

re: #33 SanFranciscoZionist

First time I've listened to this.

Even with the suggestion of 'coons' put in my head, I am still hearing what sounds to me like 'fucking punks' pretty clearly.

Make of this what you will.

Yeah, it's all subjective given the uniqueness of everyone's ears.
I hear one thing, you hear another, KT hears drums...
:P

37 What, me worry?  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 2:02:40pm

re: #29 A Mom Anon

All those 911 calls,at least the ones released,mirror each other. Young black males,behaving suspicious,there's been a series of break ins in the area,his wife ID'd the guys,etc. Zimmerman has a pattern of behavior here and that should matter. I also find it hard to believe that the cops didn't know who Zimmerman was with all those 911 calls. In alot of communities,people who call 911 habitually are known,there's a file on them. I find it tough to believe the Sanford PD didn't have a clue here.

Good point, but I haven't heard any comment from the police on him. Although don't think they're commenting much at this point.

He was told not to follow Trayvon. That's on the 911 tape. I think that would hold a lot of water in court.

38 Ojoe  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 2:03:26pm

re: #32 goddamnedfrank

It is kind of "testifying," don't you think?

Spoken, anyway.

39 abolitionist  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 2:03:29pm

re: #34 SanFranciscoZionist

I think Zimmerman is racist.
I still don't hear it.

Tried headphones?

40 wrenchwench  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 2:03:44pm
As evidence that the incident was not a case of racial profiling, Lee told The Miami Herald that when the police dispatch operator asked Zimmerman the race of the suspicious person he saw, the Hispanic neighborhood watch captain did not know. Yet when the recording of that conversation was made public, Zimmerman clearly says, “he looks black.”
41 Gus  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 2:06:19pm

re: #32 goddamnedfrank

Suspects can be required to submit handwriting samples. How is this any different?

Maybe no difference. Can browse through this search.

42 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 2:06:38pm

re: #34 SanFranciscoZionist

I think Zimmerman is racist.
I still don't hear it.

You're lying! Willfully ignorantly lying! /

43 goddamnedfrank  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 2:06:47pm

People hearing "punks," where is the k sound between n-s? I'm not hearing it. Neither am I hearing a /ə/. Dont' want to start an argument, just honestly find this interpretation one of the more odd ones based on the actual recording. Contextually it makes more sense than cones to me, but my ears just aren't hearing the missing elements in the word.

44 Kragar  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 2:06:58pm

Addressing Climate Change is "Anti-Christian"

Perkins: We are abdicating our national sovereignty to the UN under some of these treaties on climate change, and it’s very troubling when you begin to see the entire agenda, Tim, that’s behind this global warming.

Wildmon: Yeah, I think what’s behind it is, and Senator Inhofe writes about this, it’s the people like the Occupy Wall Street crowd, it’s that kind of mentality. It’s anti-capitalist, anti-American, anti-Christian.

Perkins: It’s anti-child too.

Wildmon: Anti-child. I think quite frankly they are wanting to use the global warming scare, which has basically petered out with the American people, they’re not buying it anymore, people really aren’t talking about it that much anymore. Now those who are committed to their cause are and they are continuing to fight on Capitol Hill but most of the American people I think today don’t buy it anymore. But they are using this scare, globally, to try to control, as you say Tony and as Senator Inhofe says, to control America.

45 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 2:07:27pm

I'm not hearing [u] either.

46 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 2:07:40pm

re: #36 Varek Raith

Yeah, it's all subjective given the uniqueness of everyone's ears.
I hear one thing, you hear another, KT hears drums...
:P

The long U in 'coons' should sound pretty distinct, is my only thought. If that's it, he's saying something almost like 'cuns'. It could be a regional accent thing, but I've never heard anyone say it like that.

47 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 2:08:19pm

re: #39 abolitionist

Tried headphones?

Can't, at the moment.

48 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 2:08:39pm

re: #46 SanFranciscoZionist

To me it sounds like some vowel, maybe [ou], maybe something else, but not [u:].

49 What, me worry?  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 2:08:46pm

I don't hear a "P" sound at all. Could be what Obdi said, "close", but don't think his tone, kind of exasperated, makes sense then. Sounds more like a hard C, but really, it's so hard to tell. Did they say this guy was a forensic voice examiner?

50 Charles Johnson  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 2:09:07pm

I don't hear either a P at the beginning or the hard K sound at the end of the word "punks." If he had said "punks," the P sound should have stood out -- that plosive consonant is always emphasized when recorded without a filter or compressor. I know this very well after working for many years in recording studios.

It sounds to me like either "cones" or "coons."

51 Gus  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 2:09:21pm

re: #43 goddamnedfrank

People hearing "punks," where is the k sound between n-s? I'm not hearing it. Neither am I hearing a /ə/. Dont' want to start an argument, just honestly find this interpretation one of the more odd ones based on the actual recording. Contextually it makes more sense than cones to me, but my ears just aren't hearing the missing elements in the word.

I'm hearing a "puh" instead of a "koo" -- phonetically. The only way would be to get samples from Zimmerman and get his exact vocal signature. Might even be possible to computer model his voicing with the existing full recordings.

52 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 2:11:33pm

And that's where reasonable doubt kicks in.

53 goddamnedfrank  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 2:12:03pm

re: #38 Ojoe

It is kind of "testifying," don't you think?

Spoken, anyway.

How is it different than handwriting? It's not. Suspects in a police lineups can be required to repeat phrases too. Anyway the fifth is something that's invoked, Zimmerman would have to say that his answer / response would be likely to incriminate him. A jury would either never know he'd invoked his right or be instructed to ignore it, but it's not something that affirmatively prevents lines of questioning before they can even be asked.

54 blueraven  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 2:12:49pm

I dont know if Zimmerman is a racist or not. But the police department certainly exhibited a racial bias in this case.

Mr Zimmerman was not arrested or tested in any way. Just questioned and released.

Trayvons parents were not notified of his killing for three days, while they looked for him. Three days!
The cops had his cell phone, yet they couldn't notify anyone of his death?
It was only after a missing persons report, that the police showed the parents a photo of a dead kid on the street.

This whole thing is rotten to the core.

55 Lidane  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 2:14:13pm

re: #44 Kragar

Addressing Climate Change is "Anti-Christian"

Who knew that wanting to preserve the environment was anti-Christian?

56 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 2:14:27pm

re: #43 goddamnedfrank

People hearing "punks," where is the k sound between n-s? I'm not hearing it. Neither am I hearing a /ə/. Dont' want to start an argument, just honestly find this interpretation one of the more odd ones based on the actual recording. Contextually it makes more sense than cones to me, but my ears just aren't hearing the missing elements in the word.

I am hearing a short-u/schwa sound, and a soft velar consonant, k or g, at the end of the word.

I'm filling in 'punks', because it makes sense, and because 'pungs' doesn't mean anything.

Try as I may, I can't fill in 'coons'. The vowel sounds too far off.

57 Lidane  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 2:15:34pm

Carol City Students Stage 'Walk Out' In Support Of Trayvon Martin

Thursday at 12:30 p.m., hundreds of Carol City High students walked out in support of their former classmate Trayvon Martin, who attended the school as a freshman and sophomore, reports CBS Miami.

Martin, 17, was shot by George Zimmerman, a neighborhood watchman in Sanford, Florida, on February 26. Zimmerman is claiming self defense for killing the unarmed teen and has not been arrested.

Carol City students marched Thursday and chanted “No justice. No peace and justice for Trayvon,” according to the Miami Herald.

58 What, me worry?  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 2:15:54pm

He already described him as Black a couple times at that point and said "These assholes always get away", so I'm guessing he ain't saying cones.

59 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 2:16:05pm

re: #52 Liberal Entity

And that's where reasonable doubt kicks in.

Truth is, I don't care if he said 'coons'. My GFIL probably says 'coons' when I'm out of the room, and not referring to masked furry garbage thieves either.

I care that he shot the boy.

60 Gus  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 2:16:10pm

re: #56 SanFranciscoZionist

I am hearing a short-u/schwa sound, and a soft velar consonant, k or g, at the end of the word.

I'm filling in 'punks', because it makes sense, and because 'pungs' doesn't mean anything.

Try as I may, I can't fill in 'coons'. The vowel sounds too far off.

He kind of has a "mouthful voice" as it is. That is he sounds like he's got half a sandwich in mouth or something.

61 What, me worry?  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 2:17:02pm

re: #54 blueraven

I dont know if Zimmerman is a racist or not. But the police department certainly exhibited a racial bias in this case.

Mr Zimmerman was not arrested or tested in any way. Just questioned and released.

Trayvons parents were not notified of his killing for three days, while they looked for him. Three days!
The cops had his cell phone, yet they couldn't notify anyone of his death?
It was only after a missing persons report, that the police showed the parents a photo of a dead kid on the street.

This whole thing is rotten to the core.

They did detain Zimmerman, but let him go the same evening without any kind of toxicology test.

62 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 2:17:08pm

re: #60 Gus

He kind of has a "mouthful voice" as it is. That is he sounds like he's got half a sandwich in mouth or something.

Plus it is a poor recording, and no matter how you clean it up, you can't increase quality.

63 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 2:17:48pm

re: #60 Gus

He kind of has a "mouthful voice" as it is. That is he sounds like he's got half a sandwich in mouth or something.

Yeah, he doesn't have Katherine Hepburn's enunciation, and the sound quality isn't great.

64 Lidane  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 2:18:31pm

re: #61 Madge

They did detain Zimmerman, but let him go the same evening without any kind of toxicology test.

Which is bullshit. He fired his weapon. There was a dead body on the ground. WTF. Running a tox screen should be Police Work 101 in that scenario.

65 blueraven  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 2:19:02pm

re: #61 Madge

They did detain Zimmerman, but let him go the same evening without any kind of toxicology test.

right, no testing, no arrest, just detained for questioning and released.

66 darthstar  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 2:19:14pm

Be bold with bananas.

From bookriot.com

Safe for work, but not safe for lunch.

67 Sionainn  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 2:19:38pm

If you listen to just the part where it

might

be "coons" over and over, it sounds like listening to the fetal heartbeat at the obstetrician's office.

68 kirkspencer  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 2:20:16pm

Based on what we've got so far, my predictions:
a) Zimmerman will walk, this time.
b) Lee and the entire police department is going to go through a major shake-up.

Lee lied about what was on the 911 tapes. Lee and his forces didn't do any normal police procedural actions: they didn't take the firearm for testing, they didn't arrest Zimmerman, they didn't do drug or any other testing of Zimmerman. At least one officer persuaded a witness to change her testimony. In sum, the department apparently acted contrary to state law, regulation, and standard practice, and we'll have to see if they also acted contrary to official policy

Zimmerman, on the other hand, has enough issues that given section three (the stand your ground clause that Obdi quoted last thread) he'll pull reasonable doubt. Yes, I know about the fact he followed against recommendation and he got out and he's bigger and the possible epithet and all the rest. But there are two facts that also stand.
a) He was bleeding from damage to the face;
b) His back was grass stained.

[paraphrasing] "I got out to check which street I was at, and when I turned around he was charging me and yelling. He knocked me down and hit me and I was afraid he was going to seriously hurt me because I thought he was on PCP or something, so I shot him in self defense."

It sucks. I think by all reasonable definitions it was a murder (possibly not with premeditation). But by the color of that stupid law as written he gets reasonable doubt and he walks.

On the other hand I wouldn't be surprised to see action to clear that law up. finally.

69 Gus  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 2:21:06pm

re: #62 Liberal Entity

Plus it is a poor recording, and no matter how you clean it up, you can't increase quality.

A lot of wind noise. Right now if their only option is to charge him with a race based federal murder charge this is what hinges on that. Going past the prosecution stage you would then have to convince a jury "beyond a reasonable doubt" that he used the c-word. That would be the prosecution. The defense will want the jury to hear the p-word. It might even have to go to a grand jury first.

70 wrenchwench  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 2:21:19pm

re: #46 SanFranciscoZionist

The long U in 'coons' should sound pretty distinct, is my only thought. If that's it, he's saying something almost like 'cuns'. It could be a regional accent thing, but I've never heard anyone say it like that.

He's from Virginia, if that helps.

71 KingKenrod  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 2:21:27pm

I sort of hear "these fucking phones". I don't hear a hard "c" sound on the last word. It's more like a "ph" or "fl" sound to my ears.

72 Sionainn  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 2:22:04pm

re: #40 wrenchwench

From what I remember of the 911 tape, when Zimmerman was first asked the race of Trayvon, he said he didn't know. However, as he got closer to Trayvon (or vice versa if Trayvon was walking toward him), he changed it to "he's black" as he was able to see him more clearly.

73 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 2:22:15pm

re: #70 wrenchwench

He's from Virginia, if that helps.

Not me, it doesn't.

74 Gus  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 2:23:52pm

Cripes. At this point Zimmerman could have very well melted the handgun he used.

75 Sionainn  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 2:24:10pm

re: #54 blueraven

I dont know if Zimmerman is a racist or not. But the police department certainly exhibited a racial bias in this case.

Mr Zimmerman was not arrested or tested in any way. Just questioned and released.

Trayvons parents were not notified of his killing for three days, while they looked for him. Three days!
The cops had his cell phone, yet they couldn't notify anyone of his death?
It was only after a missing persons report, that the police showed the parents a photo of a dead kid on the street.

This whole thing is rotten to the core.

What?!? I had no idea that they didn't notify his parents. That's shocking.

76 goddamnedfrank  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 2:24:30pm

I'd like to know what people blind since birth or childhood hear, when using headphones.

re: #70 wrenchwench

He's from Virginia, if that helps.

-The back vowels /u/ in boon and /oʊ/ in code shift considerably forward.

77 darthstar  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 2:24:31pm

re: #68 kirkspencer

Zimmerman, on the other hand, has enough issues that given section three (the stand your ground clause that Obdi quoted last thread) he'll pull reasonable doubt. Yes, I know about the fact he followed against recommendation and he got out and he's bigger and the possible epithet and all the rest. But there are two facts that also stand.
a) He was bleeding from damage to the face;
b) His back was grass stained.

Self inflicted. Nothing a dive into the dirt and a little back slide can't make.

[paraphrasing] "I got out to check which street I was at, and when I turned around he was charging me and yelling. He knocked me down and hit me and I was afraid he was going to seriously hurt me because I thought he was on PCP or something, so I shot him in self defense."

Narrative here is too long to be believable. Didn't he say in the 911 call he thought the guy might be on drugs? He fabricated his story.

I'm sorry, but fuck this douche bag. Let's see how that story stands up under cross examination.

78 Gus  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 2:24:43pm

re: #75 Sionainn

What?!? I had no idea that they didn't notify his parents. That's shocking.

Yep. He was listed as a "John Doe" at first.

79 abolitionist  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 2:24:49pm

re: #56 SanFranciscoZionist

Vowel sounds do tend to be "off" when one mutters something as a whisper.

80 Mattand  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 2:25:21pm

re: #54 blueraven

I dont know if Zimmerman is a racist or not. But the police department certainly exhibited a racial bias in this case.

Mr Zimmerman was not arrested or tested in any way. Just questioned and released.

Trayvons parents were not notified of his killing for three days, while they looked for him. Three days!
The cops had his cell phone, yet they couldn't notify anyone of his death?
It was only after a missing persons report, that the police showed the parents a photo of a dead kid on the street.

This whole thing is rotten to the core.

Is this true?

81 Sionainn  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 2:27:07pm

re: #78 Gus

Yep. He was listed as a "John Doe" at first.

That's simply indefensible. The police department has fallen down completely over this whole sorry story.

82 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 2:27:59pm

re: #79 abolitionist

Vowel sounds do tend to be "off" when one mutters something as a whisper.

Yeah. I know very little about linguistics, less about sound recording. And I do not have a good 'ear' at all.

'Punks' is what I hear, however.

83 Lidane  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 2:28:33pm

re: #68 kirkspencer

Based on what we've got so far, my predictions:
a) Zimmerman will walk, this time.
b) Lee and the entire police department is going to go through a major shake-up.

c) both Zimmerman and the Sanford PD will be the targets of civil suits from Trayvon Martin's family, and with any luck, they'll both be taken to the cleaners for this. At the very least, the Sanford PD owes the Martin family the careers of everyone who failed their son. And even if Zimmerman walks, he should have to pay (financially) for what he did.

84 What, me worry?  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 2:28:38pm

re: #68 kirkspencer

There is no way in hell that that man is going to walk. I can't see it. There will be rioting in the streets in every American city. This is what's hanging over the head of the Sanford Police and the fucking FL Republican legislature when they passed that law. This is their doing. It was waiting to happen.

85 Gus  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 2:29:20pm

The Curious Case of Trayvon Martin
By CHARLES M. BLOW

That was Feb. 27, one day after Trayvon was shot. The father thought that he was missing, according to the family’s lawyer, Benjamin Crump, but the boy’s body had actually been taken to the medical examiner’s office and listed as a John Doe.

The father called the Missing Persons Unit. No luck. Then he called 911. The police asked the father to describe the boy, after which they sent officers to the house where the father was staying. There they showed him a picture of the boy with blood coming out of his mouth.

This is a nightmare scenario for any parent, and the events leading to Trayvon’s death offer little comfort — and pose many questions.

86 darthstar  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 2:29:43pm

Breitbart spawn meltdown #23...James O'Keefe

Couldn't happen to a more deserving little fucker.

87 darthstar  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 2:30:25pm

re: #84 Madge

There is no way in hell that that man is going to walk. I can't see it. There will be rioting in the streets in every American city. This is what's hanging over the head of the Sanford Police and the fucking FL Republican legislature when they passed that law. This is their doing. It was waiting to happen.

Rodney King verdict ring a bell? Or was 1994 that long ago?

88 Targetpractice  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 2:32:08pm

re: #68 kirkspencer

Zimmerman, on the other hand, has enough issues that given section three (the stand your ground clause that Obdi quoted last thread) he'll pull reasonable doubt. Yes, I know about the fact he followed against recommendation and he got out and he's bigger and the possible epithet and all the rest. But there are two facts that also stand.
a) He was bleeding from damage to the face;
b) His back was grass stained.

The only evidence of both is the cop on the scene's report. No hospital record of examination of his wounds, no picture of the clothes he was wearing, nothing more than just a written report from a cop who was already in hot water a couple years back for refusing to arrest a lieutenant's son after he was videotaped hitting a black homeless man.

The guy's injuries could well have been from rolling around with Martin on the ground after he tried to grab him and Trayvon fought back. And I'd like to meet the man who could tell me with a straight face that the amount of blood from a head wound is enough to gauge the severity of it.

[paraphrasing] "I got out to check which street I was at, and when I turned around he was charging me and yelling. He knocked me down and hit me and I was afraid he was going to seriously hurt me because I thought he was on PCP or something, so I shot him in self defense."

This is a Dirty Harry vigilante that's doing almost nightly patrols of the neighborhood, on foot, in a small gated community. That he had to physically get out of his truck to check the street name strains credibility to its breaking point.

89 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 2:32:15pm

Florida: The Bartertown of America

90 AK-47%  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 2:32:56pm

re: #87 darthstar

Rodney King verdict ring a bell? Or was 1994 that long ago?

Motto of the LAPD: "We treat you like a King!"

/

91 Lidane  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 2:33:00pm

A war criminal gets a case of Stopped Clock Syndrome:

Allen West On Trayvon Martin Case: 'This Is An Outrage'

I have sat back and allowed myself time to assess the current episode revealing itself in Sanford, Florida involving the shooting of 17-year-old Treyvon Martin. First of all, if all that has been reported is accurate, the Sanford Police Chief should be relieved of his duties due to what appears to be a mishandling of this shooting in its early stages. The US Navy SEALS identified Osama Bin Laden within hours, while this young man laid on a morgue slab for three days. The shooter, Mr Zimmerman, should have been held in custody and certainly should not be walking free, still having a concealed weapons carry permit. From my reading, it seems this young man was pursued and there was no probable cause to engage him, certainly not pursue and shoot him….against the direction of the 911 responder. Let’s all be appalled at this instance not because of race, but because a young American man has lost his life, seemingly, for no reason. I have signed a letter supporting a DOJ investigation. I am not heading to Sanford to shout and scream, because we need the responsible entities and agencies to handle this situation from this point without media bias or undue political influences. This is an outrage.

92 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 2:33:50pm

re: #86 darthstar

Breitbart spawn meltdown #23...James O'Keefe

Couldn't happen to a more deserving little fucker.

eh, this guy will disappear and go back to obscurity, almost certainly he'll get handed some cush job at a racist think tank

Republican scum always fail upwards

93 kirkspencer  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 2:33:51pm

re: #77 darthstar

Self inflicted. Nothing a dive into the dirt and a little back slide can't make.

... and your proof is?

Narrative here is too long to be believable. Didn't he say in the 911 call he thought the guy might be on drugs? He fabricated his story.

I'm sorry, but fuck this douche bag. Let's see how that story stands up under cross examination.

He doesn't have to take the stand. If he doesn't you can't cross.

Oh, and narrative too long? What, it has to be a soundbite to be believable? For that matter if I'd not mentioned why he got out, would you have raised that point as your objection?

I'm going to say it again. I think, based on what I know, that he committed murder. I also think, based on existing evidence and the word of the law, that he'll walk. I do not like it, I just think it is what will happen.

94 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 2:33:57pm

re: #91 Lidane

A war criminal gets a case of Stopped Clock Syndrome:

Allen West On Trayvon Martin Case: 'This Is An Outrage'

Hmm, is this when the freeper contingent starts to abandon West?

95 Targetpractice  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 2:34:37pm

re: #84 Madge

There is no way in hell that that man is going to walk. I can't see it. There will be rioting in the streets in every American city. This is what's hanging over the head of the Sanford Police and the fucking FL Republican legislature when they passed that law. This is their doing. It was waiting to happen.

He'll walk free, there's not enough hard evidence to convict him on, just a case based upon circumstantial evidence that will likely be shredded once a defense attorney begins picking it apart piece by piece. If anything, a competent attorney would get Zimmerman off by claiming that his innocence has been tainted by the Keystone Cops that are the Sanford Police Department.

96 Iwouldprefernotto  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 2:36:20pm

I heard coons.
An unarmed kid is dead.

97 Gus  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 2:36:41pm

re: #91 Lidane

A war criminal gets a case of Stopped Clock Syndrome:

Allen West On Trayvon Martin Case: 'This Is An Outrage'

Well I'll be damned.

98 AK-47%  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 2:36:48pm

re: #95 Targetpractice

He'll walk free, there's not enough hard evidence to convict him on, just a case based upon circumstantial evidence that will likely be shredded once a defense attorney begins picking it apart piece by piece. If anything, a competent attorney would get Zimmerman off by claiming that his innocence has been tainted by the Keystone Cops that are the Sanford Police Department.

That is the sad truth of the matter. And I fear we will see more violence arising from this case before it settles down...

99 Locker  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 2:36:51pm

re: #68 kirkspencer

Yes, I know about the fact he followed against recommendation and he got out and he's bigger and the possible epithet and all the rest. But there are two facts that also stand.
a) He was bleeding from damage to the face;
b) His back was grass stained.

If you tackled my ass and tried to shoot me you'd damn sure have some grass stains and blood as well. Alternatively, anyone who's seen Fight Club knows it's a neat trick to do some damage to yourself to claim self defense (carve backwards initials into your own face, etc).

100 Lidane  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 2:37:01pm

re: #94 Liberal Entity

Hmm, is this when the freeper contingent starts to abandon West?

The comments at his FB page where this statement was posted are interesting:

[Link: www.facebook.com...]

101 Obdicut  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 2:37:27pm

re: #97 Gus

Well I'll be damned.

He still takes the moment to have a swipe at Sharpton, of course.

102 Big Steve  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 2:37:43pm

Is there anyone under the age of 40 who uses the word "coons" anymore?

103 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 2:37:53pm

re: #100 Lidane

Margaret Longendyck Castellano Please report that the shooter was NOT a white man. This is NOT a racial issue!

104 b_sharp  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 2:37:57pm

re: #71 KingKenrod

I sort of hear "these fucking phones". I don't hear a hard "c" sound on the last word. It's more like a "ph" or "fl" sound to my ears.

Let's see the waveform for just that word, that should tell us if it was a hard click or a softer expression.

105 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 2:38:32pm

re: #100 Lidane

Brian Bonner So, you are for removing his rights, ie CCW, without due process? I am dissappointed.

106 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 2:38:44pm

re: #101 Obdicut

He still takes the moment to have a swipe at Sharpton, of course.

Can't blame him.

107 Lidane  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 2:39:46pm

Allen West's FB page. The most recent post is a tweet about his Trayvon Martin statement:

[Link: www.facebook.com...]

108 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 2:39:53pm
Jodi Kyman Yep Brian he has put Race hysteria above the Constitution just like MANY people posting here. There have been outside Agitators since it happened only 3 weeks ago..

I wonder if West is going to learn anything from this.

109 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 2:40:44pm
Joe Nicastro This is not a DOJ issue... Perhaps you should go back and learn how our justice system works. Why should the DOJ have jurisdiction over a murder that happened in Sanford, FL? How do you stand up for state's rights only to throw them out when they don't go your way.

Perhaps we should play by the rules a 100% of the time and not only when it suits us. If you feel the Sanford Police Department didn't do it's due dilligence in regards to this investigation then perhaps you should be investigating that, not a murder that happened in FL and that should be investigated by FL LE.

How come you don't call for every other murder that doesn't get investigated properly to be looked at by the DOJ? Tired of the double standards.

110 Decatur Deb  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 2:41:21pm

re: #104 etc/init.d/mailman start

Let's see the waveform for just that word, that should tell us if it was a hard click or a softer expression.

Yeah. Before this is over some extremely proficient and well-equipped examiners are going to go over that recording. I can wait.

111 Gus  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 2:42:20pm

re: #107 Lidane

Allen West's FB page. The most recent post is a tweet about his Trayvon Martin statement:

[Link: www.facebook.com...]

They're angry! Well, some.

• So, you are for removing his rights, ie CCW, without due process? I am dissappointed.

• Congressman, you should not be commenting on this, at all, until the police have done their investigation.

• You calling for an override of state's rights to investigate their own crimes is an outrage. So much for you being a true statesman...

Plenty more there.

112 blueraven  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 2:42:34pm

re: #80 mattand

Is this true?

I first heard this from Shepard Smith on Fox news. He was pretty pissed and upset about it.

Im sure there are some other news references but I quickly found this

People are angry over the irresponsible behavior of the police officials in the case. A reader says, “The inexplicable behavior of the Sanford, FL authorities in this terribly sad affair has swung wildly between callous indifference and criminal incompetence. How did they not bother to notify Tracy Martin, who called the police repeatedly in a frantic search for Trayvon, that his son had in fact been killed — FOR THREE DAYS? Further, the police department dispatched a narcotics investigator, rather than a homicide detective, to investigate the scene of Trayvon’s shooting, and they failed to test George Zimmerman for drugs and alcohol or gunpowder residue. The entire town leadership needs to be purged and replaced.”

[Link: nvonews.com...]

113 Targetpractice  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 2:43:16pm

re: #111 Gus

They're angry! Well, some.

Plenty more there.

General consensus seems to be that the DoJ should be kept out of it, because the state authorities who've done such a stand-up job up til now should be the ones investigating...well, themselves. *rolls eyes*

114 kirkspencer  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 2:43:30pm

re: #88 Targetpractice

The only evidence of both is the cop on the scene's report. No hospital record of examination of his wounds, no picture of the clothes he was wearing, nothing more than just a written report from a cop who was already in hot water a couple years back for refusing to arrest a lieutenant's son after he was videotaped hitting a black homeless man.

Yep, that's all the evidence there is. However, do you have evidence by which to dismiss the officer's report as possibly prejudicial? Previous incident is failure to indict, not perjury.

The guy's injuries could well have been from rolling around with Martin on the ground after he tried to grab him and Trayvon fought back. And I'd like to meet the man who could tell me with a straight face that the amount of blood from a head wound is enough to gauge the severity of it.

One more time. "Beyond reasonable doubt" means "could well have been" isn't enough to convict. Prove it was Zimmerman who initiated the assault and you win. Don't and reasonable doubt of who initiated stands. Note, please, that the comments of the girlfriend do not support who actually attacked. There was some yelling, and then his headset quit. Was it because he tackled Zimmerman or because Zimmerman struck him? One more time: PROVE IT.

This is a Dirty Harry vigilante that's doing almost nightly patrols of the neighborhood, on foot, in a small gated community. That he had to physically get out of his truck to check the street name strains credibility to its breaking point.

Yes. Yes. Yes.

And so what.

The conviction requirement for murder is "beyond a reasonable doubt."

If that law as written weren't present, if instead it were the self defense law of pretty much every other state (none of which have that open-ended 'stand your ground' section) it would be murder. It IS murder. He followed, he got out against advice, thus creating a hostile and threatening environment for the kid. He then killed the kid.

Someone put up proof. Not "it ought to be" or "reasonable doubt of his story" or "he could have" or "his story stretches credibility" but proof.

Because until you do he walks because that's what the law says.

115 Gus  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 2:44:41pm

re: #113 Targetpractice

General consensus seems to be that the DoJ should be kept out of it, because the state authorities who've done such a stand-up job up til now should be the ones investigating...well, themselves. *rolls eyes*

Another...

I have always been told that if something seems too good to be true more than likly it's not true. Of ALL people, HOLDER? What are you thinking? I just have to shake my head on this one. WTH?

RINO!!111ty

116 Daniel Ballard  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 2:45:48pm

If (yes a big if) one could prove a racial slur, we would have yet another reason to see this man is not protected by this law. He put himself outside of it's intended use.

That would be an excellent result, no?

117 Gus  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 2:45:53pm

It's amazing how many are so quick to turn on their own.

118 Obdicut  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 2:47:12pm

re: #116 Daniel Ballard

If (yes a big if) one could prove a racial slur, we would have yet another reason to see this man is not protected by this law. He put himself outside of it's intended use.

That would be an excellent result, no?

If someone is racist, they're no longer protected by the law? What?

119 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 2:48:21pm

re: #102 Big Steve

Is there anyone under the age of 40 who uses the word "coons" anymore?

It's like these teenage girls with tattoos who knit on the bus. Even racists can be retro.

120 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 2:48:50pm

re: #103 Liberal Entity

How does the shooter not being a white man mean that it's not a racial issue?

121 Obdicut  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 2:48:56pm

re: #102 Big Steve

Is there anyone under the age of 40 who uses the word "coons" anymore?

Yes. Old racists teach young racists their old slang. It's like phonics for assholes.

122 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 2:49:36pm

re: #102 Big Steve

Is there anyone under the age of 40 who uses the word "coons" anymore?

That was my immediate thought, but it turned out to be an unpopular one.

123 bluecheese  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 2:49:44pm

aren't we due for an ows comment by now?

124 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 2:49:54pm

Gawt-damned despicable ghouls!!!

Lou Engle's Group Uses Trayvon Martin Shooting to Attack Planned Parenthood

Lou Engle’s youth organization Bound4Life today is using the uproar over the Trayvon Martin shooting to attack Planned Parenthood for supposedly committing “black genocide” and to condemn “the hypocrisy of black America” for not rallying against reproductive rights. “Many in the black community are of the persuasion that abortion is merely a political issue of certain ‘rights,’” Corry Robinson writes, “My response is -it was Zimmerman’s ‘right’ to carry a gun and it was his ‘right’ to use ‘self defense’, right?” Robinson writes that if the police prosecute Travyon Martin’s killer, then the state should also go after Planned Parenthood “with accessory to 38 million racially motivated murders”:

A curse on the lot of you. This world will be a better place when the memory of your cult practices fades into nothingness.

125 Gus  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 2:50:01pm

re: #120 SanFranciscoZionist

How does the shooter not being a white man mean that it's not a racial issue?

The avant-garde and fascism.

126 kirkspencer  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 2:50:05pm

re: #118 Obdicut

If someone is racist, they're no longer protected by the law? What?

Actually I see the point he's trying to make. It's hitting on the intent and as a result damaging the 'rightful presence' requirement of clause three. It's an attempt to establish an intent, coincidentally pushing this into premeditated territory.

I don't think it would be enough by itself, but it's a stone for that pathway if enough others can be found.

127 b_sharp  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 2:50:07pm

re: #118 Obdicut

If someone is racist, they're no longer protected by the law? What?

This law, not the law.

128 Lidane  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 2:50:15pm

re: #120 SanFranciscoZionist

How does the shooter not being a white man mean that it's not a racial issue?

Because some people are stupid. That's how.

129 Targetpractice  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 2:50:22pm

re: #114 kirkspencer

You're asking me to produce evidence that does not exist because of the actions of the Sanford Police Department, which did not do even basic police work and left nothing more than a fragmentary picture of what happened in between the time that Zimmerman left the 911 call and when cops finally arrived.

Yes, he should be charged with murder, but he never will be, because of how fucked up this statute has made the prosecution of such incidents. But demanding we put up proof that ends "reasonable doubt" is pointless because if it had existed at the time of the murder, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

130 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 2:50:30pm
Jodi Kyman Once again Lt Col West you put RACE before the Constitution just like in the Pigford Fraud Farmers Reparations
131 Obdicut  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 2:51:24pm

re: #126 kirkspencer

Actually I see the point he's trying to make. It's hitting on the intent and as a result damaging the 'rightful presence' requirement of clause three. It's an attempt to establish an intent, coincidentally pushing this into premeditated territory.

I don't think it would be enough by itself, but it's a stone for that pathway if enough others can be found.

You don't lose the right to be somewhere because you're an asshole racist, either, though.

132 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 2:51:25pm

re: #123 bluecheese

If it happens, it's because you called into being.

133 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 2:51:30pm

re: #120 SanFranciscoZionist

How does the shooter not being a white man mean that it's not a racial issue?

Heh. I've seen people argue seriously that only whites can be really racists. This is the reverse of such thinking. The irony being that the former comes from far left, while the latter from far right.

134 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 2:51:56pm

re: #121 Obdicut

Yes. Old racists teach young racists their old slang. It's like phonics for assholes.

Besides, now that there are filters on the Fox sites, you need to be clever with your slurs.

135 Gus  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 2:52:10pm

re: #130 Liberal Entity

Must. Not. Feel. Sorry. For. Allen. West.

//

136 Targetpractice  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 2:52:16pm

re: #120 SanFranciscoZionist

How does the shooter not being a white man mean that it's not a racial issue?

Because minorities killing minorities isn't news, duh!

137 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 2:52:39pm

re: #135 Gus

Must. Not. Feel. Sorry. For. Allen. West.

//

I really hope he learns something today ;)

138 Gus  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 2:53:10pm

re: #137 Liberal Entity

I really hope he learns something today ;)

A teachable moment.

139 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 2:54:26pm

re: #123 bluecheese

aren't we due for an ows comment by now?

Well, three of Occupy Oakland are now going to trial for a hate crime, and the rest of them have started their 'spring offensive', pitching tents in the park in response to the arrests in New York, and also Trayvon.

Is that sufficient, or should I provide links?

//

140 Robert O.  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 2:54:31pm

Nothing magical about this! Just some digital signal processing. Deal with that stuff all the time in my work. If I have the original file, I might be able to get even clearer results using a better band pass filter. Matlab is wonderful :-)

141 Obdicut  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 2:55:17pm

re: #126 kirkspencer

Oh, if what you're saying is that the prosecution would make a case that he left the house with the intention to murder or otherwise illegally confront Trayvon-- well, I think that'd be really, really impossible to prove, unless he tweeted "BRB: My race-hatred just surged" before he left.

142 AK-47%  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 2:55:18pm

re: #135 Gus

Must. Not. Feel. Sorry. For. Allen. West.

//

Blacks associate with the GOP at their own risk. Look what became of Colin Powell, Michael Steele and Herman Cain...

143 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 2:56:03pm

re: #137 Liberal Entity

I really hope he learns something today ;)

It wouldn't be the first time a wingnut had an "Oh Shit! How Did I End Up Here?" moment.

:waves to early 90's Behemoth:

144 Daniel Ballard  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 2:56:31pm

re: #118 Obdicut

Might make the shoot a hate crime, not self defense. Which goes to motive & intent. Hate is not self defense. Stalking an unarmed kid is not self defense. precipitating a confrontation is not self defense.

145 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 2:56:41pm

re: #133 Liberal Entity

Heh. I've seen people argue seriously that only whites can be really racists. This is the reverse of such thinking. The irony being that the former comes from far left, while the latter from far right.

Yeah, I've heard it from the left.

It's moronic.

The right can also can it.

146 Obdicut  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 2:57:06pm

re: #139 SanFranciscoZionist

pitching tents in the park

Image: GrouchoMarx.jpg

147 Gus  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 2:58:46pm

re: #139 SanFranciscoZionist

Well, three of Occupy Oakland are now going to trial for a hate crime, and the rest of them have started their 'spring offensive', pitching tents in the park in response to the arrests in New York, and also Trayvon.

Is that sufficient, or should I provide links?

//

Let's go to the video tape!

148 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 2:59:47pm
Bob Obringer Ethan... you are 100% correct. There is no way to listen to the tapes... and read the history of this guy to know he's nothing more than a piece of racist scum. *THIS* specific case *IS* about race. Those of us on the right CANNOT be unwilling to acknowledge this... when the left comes at us and starts to use this as proof that Derrick Bell's "Critical Race Theory" is accurate (because they will), you need to have the proper intellectual weapons to challenge that.

Denying that there could ever be any incident that is race related is NOT how you arm yourselves to defend yourself when the left blames *US* for this killing (because they will). If there is ever an incident of INDIVIDUAL racism, we can't be afraid to point out that it exists. If we can't acknowledge obvious facts, then we will never be able to defend ourselves when they the left starts screaming about this is part of institutional racism.

149 Obdicut  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 2:59:52pm

re: #144 Daniel Ballard

Stalking an unarmed kid is not self defense. precipitating a confrontation is not self defense.

Hate is not self defense.

But it's very hard to prove.

Stalking an unarmed kid is not self defense. precipitating a confrontation is not self defense.

I don't think there's anything illegal about following around someone else, though, or confronting them.

Again, the law says:

(3) A person who is not engaged in an unlawful activity and who is attacked in any other place where he or she has a right to be has no duty to retreat and has the right to stand his or her ground and meet force with force, including deadly force if he or she reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony.

If it can be shown Zimmerman brandished his weapon or something, that might help, if brandishing is illegal in Florida.

150 Charles Johnson  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 2:59:57pm

Just checked our own stats, and since Larry O'Connor linked to LGF at Breitbart.com this morning, we've had exactly 40 hits from that referrer.

40 hits.

They're in trouble.

151 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 3:00:36pm

re: #111 Gus

They're angry! Well, some.

Plenty more there.

STAEZ RAGHTS IN FLOWDA! YEEHAH

152 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 3:00:59pm

re: #147 Gus

That's not how you do it. This is how you do it.

153 funky chicken  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 3:01:09pm

re: #69 Gus

A lot of wind noise. Right now if their only option is to charge him with a race based federal murder charge this is what hinges on that. Going past the prosecution stage you would then have to convince a jury "beyond a reasonable doubt" that he used the c-word. That would be the prosecution. The defense will want the jury to hear the p-word. It might even have to go to a grand jury first.

I wonder if they could establish a pattern in his previous calls.

154 BongCrodny  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 3:01:56pm

All the bloviators over the years who thought that hate crime legislation was superfluous or redundant -- I wasn't impressed by their arguments then, and I sure as hell ain't impressed by their arguments now.

If Zimmerman gets prosecuted, it will likely be *specifically* because of hate crime legislation.

155 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 3:02:14pm

re: #142 Second Amendment Renegation

Blacks associate with the GOP at their own risk. Look what became of Colin Powell, Michael Steele and Herman Cain...

YEP

Allen West will eventually become a casualty of his own party

156 Gus  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 3:03:32pm

re: #153 funky chicken

I wonder if they could establish a pattern in his previous calls.

That's what I was thinking. Mentioned it a couple of posts down.

157 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 3:04:19pm

re: #142 Second Amendment Renegation

Blacks associate with the GOP at their own risk. Look what became of Colin Powell, Michael Steele and Herman Cain...

Did Colin Powell really come to such a bad end?

And Condi is back at Stanford, doing what she does best.

158 wrenchwench  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 3:05:29pm

re: #156 Gus

That's what I was thinking. Mentioned it a couple of posts down.

That's the kind of thing they won't look into unless forced.

159 AK-47%  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 3:05:55pm

re: #157 SanFranciscoZionist

Did Colin Powell really come to such a bad end?

And Condi is back at Stanford, doing what she does best.

I mean politically. The party disowned them. Condi disowned the party.

160 Targetpractice  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 3:06:15pm

I keep trying to picture a scenario where, even getting the jump on him, a 140lb Travyon Martin could successfully wrestle a 250lb George Zimmerman to the ground and succeed in straddling him long enough to get more than a glancing blow in at his face. Especially if Zimmerman's recounting of events is to be believed that Martin came up and started screaming at him. And I'm just not seeing it.

The point that it can't be shown that Zimmerman was the aggressor means nothing because the same evidence can't show that Martin was the aggressor. The only "proof" that he was is Zimmerman's version of events, which is automatically suspect on account of him being the guy still standing.

161 Gus  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 3:06:15pm

re: #158 wrenchwench

That's the kind of thing they won't look into unless forced.

DOJ or FBI would have to do that.

162 Major Tom  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 3:06:15pm

Someone should tell the Sanford, Florida Police: When you lose the moral highground to Allen West, you need to rethink your entire lives.

[Link: livewire.talkingpointsmemo.com...]

163 Obdicut  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 3:06:45pm

re: #160 Targetpractice

Fat jerks fall down pretty easy.

164 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 3:06:49pm

re: #162 Major Tom

Someone should tell the Sanford, Florida Police: When you lose the moral highground to Allen West, you need to rethink your entire lives.

[Link: livewire.talkingpointsmemo.com...]

Brilliant.

165 Daniel Ballard  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 3:07:27pm

re: #149 Obdicut

But it's very hard to prove.

I don't think there's anything illegal about following around someone else, though, or confronting them.

Again, the law says:

If it can be shown Zimmerman brandished his weapon or something, that might help, if brandishing is illegal in Florida.

I just got off the phone with an attorney. I have a fair read according to him. We just agreed we will co-write a page by Sunday. But, I'm not asking just one. Whatever I am told, I will Page for further rehashing.
I even have his permission to put his name on it, which is a nice courtesy given the unkind nature of the 'net.

166 funky chicken  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 3:07:42pm

re: #158 wrenchwench

That's the kind of thing they won't look into unless forced.

I imagine there has to be an ambitious junior federal prosecutor who is itching to force them...

167 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 3:08:06pm

re: #160 Targetpractice

I keep trying to picture a scenario where, even getting the jump on him, a 140lb Travyon Martin could successfully wrestle a 250lb George Zimmerman to the ground and succeed in straddling him long enough to get more than a glancing blow in at his face. Especially if Zimmerman's recounting of events is to be believed that Martin came up and started screaming at him. And I'm just not seeing it.

The point that it can't be shown that Zimmerman was the aggressor means nothing because the same evidence can't show that Martin was the aggressor. The only "proof" that he was is Zimmerman's version of events, which is automatically suspect on account of him being the guy still standing.

Oh, it's easy once you know that he was a "towering 6'2” football player". A threatening one too, no doubt.

/

168 prairiefire  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 3:09:42pm

Hey, hope folks are well! This is a great project, knit a uterus for every member of congress under the "Government Free VJJ" project:[Link: www.governmentfreevjj.com...]

169 thecommodore  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 3:10:04pm

I listened to the raw audio the first time it was played in the sound studio, and I wasn't sure what that part said. Then after they played the two words over and over, and then what is believed to be "coon" over and over, and then after going back and listening to the raw audio, I do think he said "fucking coon(s)."

170 Targetpractice  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 3:12:05pm

re: #163 Obdicut

Fat jerks fall down pretty easy.

6' 2" and 140lbs makes Martin a beanpole, probably with not a lot of upper body strength compared to Zimmerman. That he succeeded in wrestling Zimmerman to the ground seems to be a bit hard to believe.

171 blueraven  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 3:12:56pm

re: #167 Liberal Entity

Oh, it's easy once you know that he was a "towering 6'2” football player". A threatening one too, no doubt.

/

That thing is so full of lies it could be a republican debate.

172 wrenchwench  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 3:13:00pm

re: #167 Liberal Entity

Oh, it's easy once you know that he was a "towering 6'2” football player". A threatening one too, no doubt.

/

That's a loathsome article.

I think I'll go fix another bike.

173 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 3:13:12pm

re: #169 thecommodore

I listened to the raw audio the first time it was played in the sound studio, and I wasn't sure what that part said. Then after they played the two words over and over, and then what is believed to be "coon" over and over, and then after going back and listening to the raw audio, I do think he said "fucking coon(s)."

IMHO, when one has to go through such pains to understand what is being said, it's just not reliable.

174 thecommodore  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 3:13:24pm

re: #6 Targetpractice

Considering the number of times this guy has called 911 since the beginning of this year, I think those calls should also be gone over. I very much doubt this one was a one-time utterance.

I agree.

175 jaunte  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 3:14:19pm

re: #167 Liberal Entity

Kyle Rogers
Charleston Conservative Examiner Clairvoyant

176 Gus  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 3:14:46pm

Lame.

177 blueraven  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 3:15:24pm

re: #175 jaunte

Kyle Rogers
Charleston Conservative Examiner Clairvoyant

Kyle Rogers: scum reporter

178 Obdicut  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 3:15:45pm

re: #170 Targetpractice

Fat jerks can fall down all by themselves. Zimmerman could have panicked, tripped, hit his own head, got grass stains on himself, shot Trayvon, etc.

It'll be 'nice' if there's clear proof that Trayvon didn't, in any sense, 'attack', but previous interpretations of this law have said that someone taking a step forward to someone was a defensible moment to shoot, as was someone who 'lunged' towards the guy.

So without a witness or a camera, it'll be hard to disprove his story of what went down.

179 jaunte  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 3:16:14pm

re: #177 blueraven

Maybe he can help me find my other car keys.

180 Targetpractice  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 3:16:24pm

re: #176 Gus

Lame.

No surprises there, it being an election year and all. Democrats don't want to give Republicans "proof" that Democrats are coming for the guns, while Republicans don't want to get people outraged at them for speaking against "Second Amendment solutions."

181 General Nimrod Bodfish  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 3:18:05pm

OT, but the toxicology report over Whitney Houston's death is out:
CNN.com

Los Angeles (CNN) -- Whitney Houston died from an accidental drowning in a hotel bathtub, but the "effects of atherosclerotic heart disease and cocaine use" were contributing factors in her death, the Los Angeles County Coroner said in an autopsy report released Thursday.

Houston, 48, was "found submerged in bathtub filled with water" and "no trauma or foul play is suspected," the coroner said.

The toxicology tests found other drugs in her body, including marijuana, the anti-anxiety drug Xanax, the muscle relaxant Flexeril and the allergy medicine Benadryl, the report said. But these drugs "did not contribute to the death," it said.

The final coroner report is expected to be made public within two weeks, the coroner said.

182 Obdicut  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 3:18:34pm

re: #165 Daniel Ballard

Make sure he takes previous cases involving this law into account, such as the one where an ex-husband went to his wife's apartment and then shot the man there who 'threatened' him.

183 Someone Please Beam Me Up!  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 3:18:49pm

Tourism is important to Florida, and money talks. Let's start a Stay the Hell out of Florida movement. For all sorts of good reasons -- if that could happen to Trayvon Martin, nobody is safe (even if young black men are by far the most at risk).

184 Targetpractice  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 3:19:26pm

re: #178 Obdicut

Fat jerks can fall down all by themselves. Zimmerman could have panicked, tripped, hit his own head, got grass stains on himself, shot Trayvon, etc.

It'll be 'nice' if there's clear proof that Trayvon didn't, in any sense, 'attack', but previous interpretations of this law have said that someone taking a step forward to someone was a defensible moment to shoot, as was someone who 'lunged' towards the guy.

So without a witness or a camera, it'll be hard to disprove his story of what went down.

Didn't think my conjecture disproved his story outright, just voicing my inability to square it with the facts on hand. As I stated above, the man's story should have been considered suspect from the word "Go" on account of his being the shooter, the lack of an opposing side on account of death being a rather glaring item. But due to the police department's utter lack of professional conduct, it's pretty much impossible to do more than put his story in doubt, as any evidence the might have disproved it was never collected in the first place.

185 Kragar  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 3:20:10pm

re: #181 Give the Mule what he wants

OT, but the toxicology report over Whitney Houston's death is out:
CNN.com

186 Obdicut  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 3:20:15pm

re: #184 Targetpractice

Yep. The presumption of innocence is more important than nailing Zimmerman, even though I think his actions are indefensible.

187 Daniel Ballard  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 3:24:25pm

re: #170 Targetpractice

Zimmerman had a bloody nose right? A punch to the nose can take a man down easily, unless he is high, medicated or a pro skills fighter. There is this flinch response the body will often do directly away from the painful hit. Balance fails, man falls.

188 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 3:27:00pm

Why does the shitty law not include provisions for when a defending person is intoxicated?

189 goddamnedfrank  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 3:27:25pm

One reason that the police should have searched Zimmerman's home and car was to see if he had any pictures of Martin, triggering the "repeatedly" requirement of Florida's anti-stalking ordinance. They took so much of what he said as gospel truth.

190 Kragar  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 3:28:19pm

"Officer, I was minding my own business, stalking the kid, then getting out of my car with a gun, when he threatened me!"

191 Gus  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 3:29:12pm

re: #184 Targetpractice

Didn't think my conjecture disproved his story outright, just voicing my inability to square it with the facts on hand. As I stated above, the man's story should have been considered suspect from the word "Go" on account of his being the shooter, the lack of an opposing side on account of death being a rather glaring item. But due to the police department's utter lack of professional conduct, it's pretty much impossible to do more than put his story in doubt, as any evidence the might have disproved it was never collected in the first place.

I really think that the best route will be a state prosecution under state laws. The feds only have race/hate based crimes to work with. The only thing hinging on that prosecution it this recording which presents a lot of reasonable doubt. State prosecution in that "stand your ground" does not apply to Zimmerman. That would be the easiest to charge, prosecute and take to court. Witnesses would include neighbors, 911 recordings, police, Zimmerman himself, etc. Obviously he would have his own defense.

192 goddamnedfrank  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 3:29:30pm

re: #188 Liberal Entity

Why does the shitty law not include provisions for when a defending person is intoxicated?

Your Honor, we were in bat country, it was reasonable for me to spray lead in all directions.

193 Targetpractice  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 3:29:51pm

re: #187 Daniel Ballard

Zimmerman had a bloody nose right? A punch to the nose can take a man down easily, unless he is high, medicated or a pro skills fighter. There is this flinch response the body will often do directly away from the painful hit. Balance fails, man falls.

True, but that would need an explanation for why Martin wound sock him in the nose. Possible that he was scared enough that he lashed out, but if he was that scared, he'd have run off after the punch. Not wrestled Zimmerman to the ground and continuing the attacks.

194 Gus  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 3:32:16pm

re: #193 Targetpractice

True, but that would need an explanation for why Martin wound sock him in the nose. Possible that he was scared enough that he lashed out, but if he was that scared, he'd have run off after the punch. Not wrestled Zimmerman to the ground and continuing the attacks.

Impossible to tell because the only witness is Zimmerman. He could have gotten a bloody nose from falling to the ground. He could have already had a bloody nose before the encounter. Etc. I think that would be circumstantial.

195 jaunte  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 3:33:58pm

George Zimmerman kicked out of Seminole State College

"Due to the highly charged and high-profile controversy involving this student, Seminole State has taken the unusual but necessary step this week to withdraw Mr. Zimmerman from enrollment," according to a statement from the college. "This decision is based solely on our responsibility to provide for the safety of our students on campus as well as for Mr. Zimmerman."

196 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 3:34:47pm

re: #195 jaunte

Stupid question: can they do that?

197 Targetpractice  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 3:35:00pm

re: #194 Gus

Impossible to tell because the only witness is Zimmerman. He could have gotten a bloody nose from falling to the ground. He could have already had a bloody nose before the encounter. Etc. I think that would be circumstantial.

Only witness is Zimmerman and even if you didn't consider his testimony automatically suspect, that it was given to a narcotics investigator who peppered him with questions rather than just taking down his version of events should raise eyebrows.

198 blueraven  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 3:35:42pm

re: #187 Daniel Ballard

Zimmerman had a bloody nose right? A punch to the nose can take a man down easily, unless he is high, medicated or a pro skills fighter. There is this flinch response the body will often do directly away from the painful hit. Balance fails, man falls.

Zimmerman could also have lunged at the kid, missed and fell, bloodying his own nose. Nobody knows!

199 Daniel Ballard  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 3:36:47pm

re: #198 blueraven

Zimmerman could also have lunged at the kid, missed and fell, bloodying his own nose. Nobody knows!

Only the nose knows.
:-)

200 Targetpractice  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 3:37:04pm

re: #199 Daniel Ballard

Only the nose knows.
:-)

*rimshot*

201 goddamnedfrank  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 3:37:13pm

re: #198 blueraven

Zimmerman could also have lunged at the kid, missed and fell, bloodying his own nose. Nobody knows!

Zimmerman could have gotten his bloody nose by snorting a fistful of cocaine, but thanks to the police misconduct we'll never know.

202 jaunte  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 3:38:25pm

re: #196 Liberal Entity

I suppose there's a process by which he can appeal the decision, but he's probably going to be too busy to concentrate on school.

203 Someone Please Beam Me Up!  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 3:38:28pm

If the kid socked Zimmerman, wouldn't his hand show it? Wouldn't the police be trumpeting it from the rooftops? Wasn't there an autopsy of Trayvon Martin?

204 blueraven  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 3:39:02pm

re: #201 goddamnedfrank

Zimmerman could have gotten his bloody nose by snorting a fistful of cocaine, but thanks to the police misconduct we'll never know.

Or a little meth, which would help explain his paranoia.
Sadly we will not know the answer.

205 Gus  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 3:40:41pm

Well. There is another option.

//

206 blueraven  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 3:43:35pm

Wow, I was just checking the bottom 10 comments.

PLL finally went over the edge and got booted?

207 General Nimrod Bodfish  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 3:44:33pm

re: #203 One of the Seventeen

If the kid socked Zimmerman, wouldn't his hand show it? Wouldn't the police be trumpeting it from the rooftops? Wasn't there an autopsy of Trayvon Martin?

It goes back to the absolute shit work the police did. If they bothered to follow proper procedure, we would know more about the night in question than we do now.

Everyone involved with the case in Sanford PD and the police chief should be sacked over.

208 A Mom Anon  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 3:45:38pm

I wonder if Zimmerman had confrontations with other teens/young men in the area he chose to patrol? I can't believe this is the only confrontation of any sort the guy had. I also still do not get why the cops would protect him and take what he said at face value. His habitual calling of 911 would make him a pest in most places at the least. Obviously alot is missing here,but this part of it makes the least sense of all. How hard would it have been to just do the basic police work? And why the hell did they let that poor kid lay in the morgue and not try to find out who he was? What a hell of a way for the family to find out he was dead too,not that there's a good way but good christ what a clusterfuck this is.

209 Lidane  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 3:45:44pm

re: #206 blueraven

Wow, I was just checking the bottom 10 comments.

PLL finally went over the edge and got booted?

I missed that. Must have happened late last night.

Hopefully he's able to work on his anger issues and get it together someday.

210 The Ghost of a Flea  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 3:46:33pm

So Zimmerman has both trend of violence, and of claiming he was defending himself.

[According to the Orlando Sentinel, in 2005]

The woman reported Zimmerman had arrived at her home Aug. 8 and asked to talk. Later, when she asked him to leave, she said, he insisted on staying and demanded documents she had.

The woman said she offered to drop the papers off the following day, but Zimmerman became upset, took her cellphone and shoved her. A fight ensued, she said, and her dog bit Zimmerman's cheek.

Zimmerman filed his own petition the day after his ex-fiancée's, in which he claimed that she had been the aggressor in the fight. He said she called him Aug. 8 and invited him to spend the night.

211 Targetpractice  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 3:46:48pm

re: #209 Lidane

I missed that. Must have happened late last night.

Hopefully he's able to work on his anger issues and get it together someday.

Good kid, but way too fucking high strung.

212 blueraven  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 3:47:29pm

re: #209 Lidane

I missed that. Must have happened late last night.

Hopefully he's able to work on his anger issues and get it together someday.

I hope so. His commentary was getting pretty spooky, but he seemed like a good kid. Just mixed up.

213 Targetpractice  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 3:49:28pm

re: #210 The Ghost of a Flea

So Zimmerman has both trend of violence, and of claiming he was defending himself.

The more that comes out, the clearer the picture of Zimmerman becomes, that of an asshole with an enormously inflated ego and violent tendencies.

214 Mattand  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 3:51:12pm

re: #112 blueraven

I first heard this from Shepard Smith on Fox news. He was pretty pissed and upset about it.

Im sure there are some other news references but I quickly found this

[Link: nvonews.com...]

Christ, if a Fox News anchor is upset over the way cops handle a black kid being killed, you know it's serious.

215 The Ghost of a Flea  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 3:52:39pm

re: #213 Targetpractice

The more that comes out, the clearer the picture of Zimmerman becomes, that of an asshole with an enormously inflated ego and violent tendencies.

Add "coward with power fantasies" and you've got my impression so far.

216 Lidane  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 3:54:07pm

re: #112 blueraven

I first heard this from Shepard Smith on Fox news. He was pretty pissed and upset about it.

Doesn't surprise me.

I can't stand Faux News, but I will always remember Shep Smith ripping into Sean Hannity over Katrina when Hannity tried pulling out some tired old talking points.

217 Targetpractice  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 3:58:04pm

re: #215 The Ghost of a Flea

Add "coward with power fantasies" and you've got my impression so far.

Indeed, Zimmerman's looking more and more like the poster child for gun control laws. He's the sort of guy that those "freedom-hatin' gun-grabbers" warn about, the kind who buys a gun because he wants the "power" of having it on him, without the maturity or experience to use it responsibly.

218 Daniel Ballard  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 3:58:18pm

re: #182 Obdicut

I'll get all the relevant stuff to him, re: #182 Obdicut

Make sure he takes previous cases involving this law into account, such as the one where an ex-husband went to his wife's apartment and then shot the man there who 'threatened' him.

One case at a time please.
The first question is do I have a fair read or not on the meaning or limits of "stand your ground". You say I do not. One attorney says I do. Then we can go from there. I understand you detest this law, and I agree it needs narrowing, perhaps to include demonstrable threat rather than perceived threat.

I meet with him on this tomorrow night, and we'll have another expert in the meet. Luckily we were getting together at the range anyway. So far we are 3 for 3. Zimmerman took himself beyond the protection of that law, based on two persons reading it. The other expert has agreed Zimmerman is a killer and yet is of the opinion that stand your ground is a necessary law.

That expert is also a self defense trainer for gun owners and police. 3 for 3, Zimmerman should be prosecuted based on media reports etc. I have to wonder now what it is about Florida that tends to interpret the law way too broadly. Maybe when we get to the other cases we can infer that as well.

219 abolitionist  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 3:59:00pm

re: #210 The Ghost of a Flea

So Zimmerman has both trend of violence, and of claiming he was defending himself.

After unregistered gun-toting neighborhood watcher George Zimmerman shot unarmed black 17-year-old Trayvon Martin, [snip]

UNregistered?

220 jaunte  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 3:59:40pm

The role of ALEC in the Trayvon Martin killing:

How did this happen? How do we get “Stand-Your-Ground” laws that sanction vigilantism and the use of deadly force on unarmed people?

State legislators and other officials who should know better than to enact such legislation are part of the problem. But there’s also the American Legislative Exchange Council (ALEC), a front for some of the country’s biggest companies. Each year, ALEC quietly drafts and lobbies for bills – like Stand-Your-Ground — that work completely against the interests of anyone who isn’t a conservative, white, American male.

Spurred on by the National Rifle Association, ALEC has pushed Stand-Your-Ground bills into law across the nation; published reports indicate 16 states have passed similar legislation since Florida acted in 2005. This is more than just another well-intentioned law that’s had unintended consequences. It’s the reason the wheels of justice have not yet turned for Trayvon.

Sadly, ALEC routinely puts itself and the prestige of member companies like Walmart, Kraft Foods and Coca-Cola behind such assaults on American values and the public good. We see its work in photo Voter ID laws, which create hurdles to voting for the poor, elderly, disabled and non-white; we see it in Arizona, where immigration laws now legalize racial profiling.

221 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 3:59:52pm

re: #216 Lidane

Isn't he a token moderate over there?

222 Gus  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 4:00:41pm

re: #221 Liberal Entity

Isn't he a token moderate over there?

Yep.

223 Targetpractice  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 4:00:56pm

re: #219 abolitionist

After unregistered gun-toting neighborhood watcher George Zimmerman shot unarmed black 17-year-old Trayvon Martin, [snip]

UNregistered?

Zimmerman's claimed to be a member of Neighborhood Watch, but he's not officially registered with the national program, probably on account of its rules requiring that members not carry weapons or pursue suspicious persons.

224 abolitionist  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 4:03:04pm

re: #223 Targetpractice

Zimmerman's claimed to be a member of Neighborhood Watch, but he's not officially registered with the national program, probably on account of its rules requiring that members not carry weapons or pursue suspicious persons.

Ah, I'd read it as a reference to his gun(s).

225 Obdicut  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 4:03:29pm

re: #218 Daniel Ballard

When interpeting a law, the other cases and how they've been ruled are highly relevant. Precedent is set by cases.

The first question is do I have a fair read or not on the meaning or limits of "stand your ground".

Yes, specifically that you repeatedly said the law had a requirement that you stand, which it does not.

226 The Ghost of a Flea  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 4:04:10pm

re: #219 abolitionist

After unregistered gun-toting neighborhood watcher George Zimmerman shot unarmed black 17-year-old Trayvon Martin, [snip]

UNregistered?

I personally can't confirm the contents of that title as true. I'll try and find the Orlando Sentinal article it was quoting.

I took it to refer to his "neighborhood watch" activities.

227 Lidane  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 4:04:27pm

re: #219 abolitionist

After unregistered gun-toting neighborhood watcher George Zimmerman shot unarmed black 17-year-old Trayvon Martin, [snip]

UNregistered?

He wasn't a member of any recognized Neighborhood Watch group. Zimmerman basically took the role on himself.

228 Targetpractice  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 4:04:37pm

re: #224 abolitionist

Ah, I'd read it as a reference to his gun(s).

I was about to type that I didn't think the SPD would let him walk around with an unregistered gun, but then stopped and considered they let him get away with murder.

229 wrenchwench  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 4:07:14pm

I was thinkin' while I was fixing that last bike. If anybody had a "stand your ground" right that night in Sanford, it was Trayvon. It just doesn't work when you're unarmed. The law seems intended for gun toters only.

One more bike to fix.

230 Daniel Ballard  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 4:07:27pm

re: #193 Targetpractice

True, but that would need an explanation for why Martin wound sock him in the nose. Possible that he was scared enough that he lashed out, but if he was that scared, he'd have run off after the punch. Not wrestled Zimmerman to the ground and continuing the attacks.

I suspect Zimmerman was the threat and the kid acted properly. The kid (again merely my suspicion too many assumptions are floating about already) responded to a hostile man closing in to that dangerous personal space that when violated leaves it far more difficult to defend. I might have done the same and taken the bullet if I were in the kids place, and black. Anyone stalking me literally/physically is making life more dangerous for us both. I do not refer to 'net stalking. Just the real deal.

231 The Ghost of a Flea  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 4:11:57pm

re: #229 wrenchwench

I was thinkin' while I was fixing that last bike. If anybody had a "stand your ground" right that night in Sanford, it was Trayvon. It just doesn't work when you're unarmed. The law seems intended for gun toters only.

One more bike to fix.

Pair the law with CCW and you can see why the NRA pushes it so hard. It makes gun owners a group with a special privilege to use lethal force.

232 Mattand  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 4:14:21pm

re: #216 Lidane

Doesn't surprise me.

I can't stand Faux News, but I will always remember Shep Smith ripping into Sean Hannity over Katrina when Hannity tried pulling out some tired old talking points.

I know it's cynical, but I'm convinced Shep is their designated "rouge" anchor, so Ailes and Murdoch can say, "Look! We have an anchor who didn't take the conservative POV! We are fair and balanced!"

233 Obdicut  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 4:14:33pm

re: #231 The Ghost of a Flea

Pair the law with CCW and you can see why the NRA pushes it so hard. It makes gun owners a group with a special privilege to use lethal force.

Well, it would defend someone knifing someone else, too, it's just harder to kill people without a gun so there's more likelihood they can contradict your version of events.

It doesn't really privilege gun owners, I wouldn't say.

234 kirkspencer  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 4:16:23pm

re: #218 Daniel Ballard

I'll get all the relevant stuff to him, re: #182 Obdicut

One case at a time please.
The first question is do I have a fair read or not on the meaning or limits of "stand your ground". You say I do not. One attorney says I do. Then we can go from there. I understand you detest this law, and I agree it needs narrowing, perhaps to include demonstrable threat rather than perceived threat.

I meet with him on this tomorrow night, and we'll have another expert in the meet. Luckily we were getting together at the range anyway. So far we are 3 for 3. Zimmerman took himself beyond the protection of that law, based on two persons reading it. The other expert has agreed Zimmerman is a killer and yet is of the opinion that stand your ground is a necessary law.

That expert is also a self defense trainer for gun owners and police. 3 for 3, Zimmerman should be prosecuted based on media reports etc. I have to wonder now what it is about Florida that tends to interpret the law way too broadly. Maybe when we get to the other cases we can infer that as well.

Is the attorney on the Florida bar? That will matter as this is a law peculiar to that state.

235 The Ghost of a Flea  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 4:19:16pm

re: #233 Obdicut

Well, it would defend someone knifing someone else, too, it's just harder to kill people without a gun so there's more likelihood they can contradict your version of events.

It doesn't really privilege gun owners, I wouldn't say.

I dunno about where you are, but there's no permit to carry a concealed knife around here, and heavy rules about what type of blade you can carry openly.

The reason why I pair CCW and SYG is that who's the one group that get to carry lethal weapons in most public settings.

236 Obdicut  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 4:19:44pm

re: #235 The Ghost of a Flea

I dunno about where you are, but there's no permit to carry a concealed knife around here, and heavy rules about what type of blade you can carry openly.

The reason why I pair CCW and SYG is that who's the one group that get to carry lethal weapons in most public settings.

oh, good point.

237 Lidane  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 4:22:31pm

re: #232 mattand

I know it's cynical, but I'm convinced Shep is their designated "rouge" anchor, so Ailes and Murdoch can say, "Look! We have an anchor who didn't take the conservative POV! We are fair and balanced!"

I would normally agree with you, but at least with respect to Katrina I think Shep's outrage was genuine. He was on the ground actually seeing what was going on and Hannity was safely enclosed in the Faux News studios.

I can't speak to any new outrage from Shep since I haven't seen video of it, but in at least that one instance, he seemed genuinely pissed.

238 Daniel Ballard  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 4:24:35pm

re: #234 kirkspencer

Is the attorney on the Florida bar? That will matter as this is a law peculiar to that state.

He does not have to be licensed there to research it properly. See if I had a fair read or not, Then we can look at case law. As a self defense advocate I'm fine with putting in the time. My interest here is a clearer understanding of what all went wrong. This will play a part in instruction I give to gun owners. Like a far more conservative approach to a defenders conduct. No you don't follow, chase, stalk or attempt to save or recover property. You defend your life and limb. That's it, that's all the leeway you get.

What if a woman kills a man in an attempted rape? That woman just might have a different take on this law than most of us here.

239 What, me worry?  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 4:30:55pm

re: #227 Lidane

He wasn't a member of any recognized Neighborhood Watch group. Zimmerman basically took the role on himself.

That's not entirely true. Any registry aside, the neighbors absolutely recognized him as part of the group. I'm not sure that each person and every person in a neighborhood is registered anyway. Many years ago, I moved into a neighborhood that had a N.W. group and no one asked me to register my name. Besides you don't have to be registered in a N.W. group to report a crime in the neighborhood.

240 Decatur Deb  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 4:31:38pm

re: #157 SanFranciscoZionist

Did Colin Powell really come to such a bad end?

And Condi is back at Stanford, doing what she does best.

Colin Powell, the old head of my food chain, came to the worst end of all.

241 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 4:35:09pm

re: #227 Lidane

He wasn't a member of any recognized Neighborhood Watch group. Zimmerman basically took the role on himself.

I'm surprised we haven't heard more from his neighbors yet, ESP those who called 911. So weird how slow this is being revealed. It's almost a month before Trayvon's killing!

Yes, Gus, he couldve melted the gun by now.

242 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 4:38:27pm

LOL, this is what happens when you follow a thread via iphone, from work.

waaay behind. I'm home now and boy could I spew off stuff about this tragedy. I'm sure more info will be forthcoming, and will make the front page.

243 JRCMYP  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 5:41:24pm

Well, I think it sounds like "coons" but it always sounded like "coons" to me. When I first heard it , it wasn't with the qualifier or an explanation of what he was saying. I heard it plain as day.

That said, I understand that not everyone hears it. I find that interesting. And it makes this utterance no smoking gun because of the aforementioned "reasonable doubt."

What matters is the accumulation of evidence: the 911 call where he is clearly stalk someone who is trying to get away from him; Trayvon's friend's account of the phone call that they were having; the eyewitness accounts of people who heard Trayvon begging for his life. And the fact that Trayvon had no gun or weapon and was therefore no actual physical threat. So, even though it's not a smoking gun, if the utterance is entered into evidence, it certainly isn't going to *help* Mr. Zimmerman. It can only hurt him.

This man must have had so, so much hatred and anger in him to pull that trigger. And he is lucky that we all are being so cautious about our speculations about him. Too bad he wasn't as cautious about his speculations about Trayvon. If he had been, Trayvon would still be alive.

244 Prononymous, rogue demon hunter  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 7:35:47pm

The first time I heard the recording I heard "goons". I just listened to the cleaned up audio on high quality headphones and it sounds to me like "coons" or "goons". Some people use the former simply because it is so easy to claim they were saying the latter.

Speaking of the way Zimmerman was using language, when I heard the recording it sounded to me that he was pre-justifying use of deadly force. He very calmly said several key phrases about Trayvon having his hand in his waistband, he's messed up, walking toward him, etc. It doesn't really make sense since Trayvon was just trying to get away. Except if those statements by Zimmerman were setting up his justification for murder as self defense.

245 garzooma  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 7:57:26pm

I'm amazed by the "They always get away" comment. He's not at his kitchen table or at a bar. Who editorializes to the 911 dispatcher?

246 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 8:20:53pm

re: #238 Daniel Ballard

What if a woman kills a man in an attempted rape? That woman just might have a different take on this law than most of us here.

That woman would have a case under a normal self-defense law. Why does she need this murder-legalizing bullcrap?

Trust me. There are very few women in the state of Florida who are going to 'stand their ground' when they have an opportunity to walk away from a potential rapist by other means.

247 MittDoesNotCompute  Thu, Mar 22, 2012 10:03:04pm

Even in the raw audio, I could hear it and it was made more clear when the CNN sound engineer cleaned it up some.

Zimmerman said "fucking coons", period, full stop; I'd stake my reputation on it. That plosive 'c' said it all for me.

This SOB needs to be nailed to the wall for a senseless, unjustifiable murder and I hope the Feds can do what the locals can't or won't.

248 Flavia  Fri, Mar 23, 2012 11:23:34pm

re: #19 Second Amendment Renegation

There are several levels of justice to be done here:

First, there are Zimmerman's actions. I am afraid that he has the law on his side: all he needs to do is to make a reasonable case that he felt "threatened"

Except that any possible claim to that is quashed by the 911 operator telling him NOT to follow the boy, & he went & did it anyway. The people who actually wrote the law he's relying on say this.

Then there are the police actions in ignoring or covering up evidence that would not corroborate his story

Yeah, that's going to be a whole three ring circus of fun...


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