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Overnight Video: Jonathan Coulton With Sara Quin, ‘Still Alive’

You just keep on trying ‘til you run out of cake
Music • Views: 32,496

I know I posted another version of this song already, but I just can’t seem to get enough of it. Here’s the “official” Jonathan Coulton/Sara Quin performance of “Still Alive,” with theremin by Dorit Chrysler, Joe McGinty on keyboards, Marty Beller on drums and Chris Anderson on bass. From Jonathan’s great album Artificial Heart.

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327 comments

1 William of Orange  Fri, Mar 23, 2012 9:24:15pm

Holy shit! How out of touch with reality do you have to be??~!!

NYC's Mayor Bloomberg Bans Feeding the Homeless


Mayor Michael Bloomberg’s food police have struck again!

Outlawed are food donations to homeless shelters because the city can’t assess their salt, fat and fiber content, reports CBS 2’s Marcia Kramer.
...
But Mayor Bloomberg, a salt-aholic himself, was unapologetic.

“For the things that we run because of all sorts of safety reasons, we just have a policy it is my understanding of not taking donations,” Bloomberg said.

Told that his administration recently enacted the policy, the mayor was Grinch-like.

“If they did in the past they shouldn’t have done it and we shouldn’t have accepted it,” Bloomberg said.

I can't find a facepalm big enough to cover this article... Salt and fibre.... About the last things I think about when I try to survive!

2 Inconsequential Consequence  Fri, Mar 23, 2012 9:36:44pm

re: #1 William of Orange

Holy shit! How out of touch with reality do you have to be??~!!

I can't find a facepalm big enough to cover this article...

Any excuse in a shit storm.

3 William Barnett-Lewis  Fri, Mar 23, 2012 9:57:51pm

re: #1 William of Orange

Bloomberg needs to learn what the phrase "drop kick" means. Sheesh.

4 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Fri, Mar 23, 2012 10:01:01pm

We do what we must, because we can.

5 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Fri, Mar 23, 2012 10:01:53pm

re: #1 William of Orange

I remember my father telling me about a time when either the city of Anchorage or the state of Alaska had a crisis with shelters. Now, in Alaska, a man who doesn't find a spot in a shelter can easily be dead the next morning from the cold.

The problem is that any place meant for a human dwelling has a lot of expensive code that has to be met.

So they decided to approve a permit for a human storage warehouse. A warehouse with a heater, essentially, to keep people from freezing to death. Cheaper, so they could get it done quickly.

Common sense is a beautiful thing.

6 William Barnett-Lewis  Fri, Mar 23, 2012 10:15:15pm

Good night & god bless. I am going to go to sleep to the sound of Brittan's Young Person's Guide. I love my luck :D

7 austin_blue  Fri, Mar 23, 2012 10:22:45pm

Ah, a nice clean thread.

What a nice day in Austin! Low of 58, high of 80, and no more Badge People. Yes, SXSW is over and we have our city back to ourselves. She Who Must Be Obeyed and one of her bands played two well attended and appreciated sets at the Green Mesquite (killer Q). If you haven't heard a harp and a banjo play Dueling Banjos you haven't heard how clever musicians can be. Nice gig.

Hope the Lizardii are well.

8 Mich-again  Fri, Mar 23, 2012 10:24:06pm

Nice song, I really liked the singer's voice and the melody.

9 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Mar 23, 2012 10:24:35pm

I should just let you all know that my mother could not remember 'Stand Your Ground Law', in a conversation this evening and referred to it as 'this Stand Up And Shoot Law, or whatever it is'.

Which seems more appropriate somehow.

10 Mich-again  Fri, Mar 23, 2012 10:35:22pm

re: #1 William of Orange

In Michigan Rick Snyder and the Tea Party state legislature have eliminated the tax deductions for: donating to food banks and shelters, donating to charity, raising children, paying city income taxes, and being over 65. Each of those used to provide some tax relief but not anymore. Actually there are a lot of other tax increases they imposed so that they could give tax breaks to people with incomes over $500,000 and to corporations.

This was after running on a program of lower taxes for all. Oh and because the changes don't hit until the 2012 tax returns, most people here won't even know what happened until after the next election.

They enacted dozens of tax increases while claiming to be for lower taxes and they made over 300 new laws in one year while claiming to be for smaller government. Joke.

11 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Fri, Mar 23, 2012 10:36:12pm

re: #9 SanFranciscoZionist

Totally unrelated, but for some reason your comment made me think of this. Recently, when taking grandma out to dinner, Mark Levin was on the car radio. My grandma, long time republican and life long fundie, asked "Who is this guy? What's wrong with his voice? He sounds like a wimp."

Oh man how I laughed.

12 Kragar  Fri, Mar 23, 2012 10:45:44pm

re: #11 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks

Totally unrelated, but for some reason your comment made me think of this. Recently, when taking grandma out to dinner, Mark Levin was on the car radio. My grandma, long time republican and life long fundie, asked "Who is this guy? What's wrong with his voice? He sounds like a wimp."

Oh man how I laughed.

Is that the shithead who fills in for Limbaugh? Repeats his jokes 3 or 4 times because they weren't funny enough the first time?

13 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Fri, Mar 23, 2012 10:45:58pm

Valve needs to do an Aperture/Black Mesa tie in at some point. Like an Aperture employed agent engaging in an act of sabotage which resulted in the original resonance cascade event at Black Mesa.

14 Kragar  Fri, Mar 23, 2012 10:46:36pm

re: #13 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks

Valve needs to do an Aperture/Black Mesa tie in at some point. Like an Aperture employed agent engaging in an act of sabotage which resulted in the original resonance cascade event at Black Mesa.

Half-Life 3

15 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Fri, Mar 23, 2012 10:49:05pm

re: #12 Kragar

Is that the shithead who fills in for Limbaugh? Repeats his jokes 3 or 4 times because they weren't funny enough the first time?

No, dude. Sadly, he's got his own big time, syndicated talk radio show and book deals.

But then again, since I haven't heard a Limbaugh show for nearly twenty years, maybe Levin does fill in for him. Does he sound like an angry version of the Hippie Teacher from "Bevis and Butthead"?

16 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Fri, Mar 23, 2012 10:53:07pm

re: #14 Kragar

Half-Life 3

Maybe a Half-Life 0.5, where you play the Aperture agent sabotaging various Black Mesa research projects, ending with your ass getting stuck in Xen after the resonance cascade. And the G-Man mocking you.

17 Kragar  Fri, Mar 23, 2012 10:53:34pm

re: #15 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks

No, dude. Sadly, he's got his own big time, syndicated talk radio show and book deals.

But then again, since I haven't heard a Limbaugh show for nearly twenty years, maybe Levin does fill in for him. Does he sound like an angry version of the Hippie Teacher from "Bevis and Butthead"?

Yeah, different guy. I was thinking Mark Steyn

18 freetoken  Fri, Mar 23, 2012 10:59:30pm

re: #12 Kragar

Is that the shithead who fills in for Limbaugh?

re: #15 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks

Levin is something else, a half-wannabe, half-success in the hate-radio business. At least Savage has made his own gimmick. Levin tries to fit in somewhere between Savage and Hannity, being part wildcard and part standard wingnut. The few times I've heard him on the radio he sounds like he plays the immigrant-fear card well.

19 Kragar  Fri, Mar 23, 2012 11:08:30pm

One of these days, I'm going to get it into my wife's thick head that CCR is not country music.

20 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Fri, Mar 23, 2012 11:13:41pm

re: #18 freetoken

He hurls epithets (Obambi, Hitlery, Repubicans, etc.) like a college party girl hurls vodka, then pretends to take the moral high ground by playing Jon Stewart clips and bitching about the number of 'swears' that need to be bleeped.

21 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Fri, Mar 23, 2012 11:14:10pm

re: #19 Kragar

One of these days, I'm going to get it into my wife's thick head that CCR is not country music.

22 Kragar  Fri, Mar 23, 2012 11:14:49pm

re: #20 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks

He hurls epithets (Obambi, Hitlery, Repubicans, etc.) like a college party girl hurls vodka, then pretends to take the moral high ground by playing Jon Stewart clips and bitching about the number of 'swears' that need to be bleeped.

Sounds like a real fart smella, er, smart fella

23 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Fri, Mar 23, 2012 11:19:22pm

re: #22 Kragar

Think the smarmyness of Bill O'Reilly, the nastiness of Limbaugh, the wimpy sounding voice of Hippie Teacher, the conspiracy theory-ness of Savage, and the angry outbursts of a spoiled brat being told "no" for the first time in their life, and you'll get pretty close to what it's like listening to Levin's show.

24 austin_blue  Fri, Mar 23, 2012 11:20:19pm

re: #9 SanFranciscoZionist

I should just let you all know that my mother could not remember 'Stand Your Ground Law', in a conversation this evening and referred to it as 'this Stand Up And Shoot Law, or whatever it is'.

Which seems more appropriate somehow.

That's about what it comes to.

"He was about to pelt me Skittles! I feared for my life! What choice did I have?"

"Oh, okay, that's fine, then."

25 sagehen  Fri, Mar 23, 2012 11:21:17pm

Is it just me, or does it seem there's been a whole lot of Jonathan Coulton threads lately? None of which have been Code Monkey... or maybe that one had a thread way back when it was new. But just in case anybody missed it:

26 Ben G. Hazi  Fri, Mar 23, 2012 11:28:19pm

re: #25 sagehen

Is it just me, or does it seem there's been a whole lot of Jonathan Coulton threads lately? None of which have been Code Monkey... or maybe that one had a thread way back when it was new. But just in case anybody missed it:

[Embedded content]

Code Monkey had a thread back in the day; as a matter of fact, Charles posted a link to that thread on another Coulton music thread not too long ago.

27 sagehen  Fri, Mar 23, 2012 11:51:40pm

here's one that I'm sure hasn't had a thread yet; a very cute ad for a newspaper, that while bragging on their journalistic chops also hits on fairy-tale TV shows, OWS and Stand Your Ground....

28 Four More Tears  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 12:00:04am

Just finished Heavy Rain. Holy crap was that a well-made game.

29 Kragar  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 12:09:31am

SEC takes Wells Fargo to court to enforce subpoenas

U.S. securities regulators accused Wells Fargo & Co on Friday of repeatedly ignoring its subpoenas for documents in connection with a probe into the bank's $60 billion sale of mortgage-backed securities.

The Securities and Exchange Commission's filing in a San Francisco federal court seeks to compel the fourth largest U.S. bank to hand over documents. The SEC said it has issued several subpoenas since September.

30 Lidane  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 12:28:01am

MF’s Corzine Ordered Funds Moved to JP Morgan, Memo Says

Jon S. Corzine, MF Global Holding Ltd. (MFGLQ)’s chief executive officer, gave “direct instructions” to transfer $200 million from a customer fund account to meet an overdraft in a brokerage account with JPMorgan Chase & Co. (JPM), according to a memo written by congressional investigators.

Edith O’Brien, a treasurer for the firm, said in an e-mail quoted in the memo that the transfer was “Per JC’s direct instructions,” according to a copy of the memo obtained by Bloomberg News. The e-mail, dated Oct. 28, was sent three days before the company collapsed, the memo says. The memo does not indicate whether that phrase was the full text of the e-mail or an excerpt.

O’Brien’s internal e-mail was sent as the New York-based broker found intraday credit lines limited by JPMorgan, the firm’s clearing bank as well as one of its custodian banks for segregated customer funds, according to the memo, which was prepared for a March 28 House Financial Services subcommittee hearing on the firm’s collapse. O’Brien is scheduled to testify at the hearing after being subpoenaed this week.

31 Kragar  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 12:51:37am

I'm getting the distinct impression the wealthy are a bunch of lying bastards.

32 Sol Berdinowitz  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 1:11:23am

re: #31 Kragar

I'm getting the distinct impression the wealthy are a bunch of lying bastards.

lying to yourself or your wife is one thing. But these guys are lying to us about our money. That is evil.

33 researchok  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 1:17:02am

Morning, all

34 Kragar  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 1:17:27am

re: #32 Second Amendment Renegation

lying to yourself or your wife is one thing. But these guys are lying to us about our money. That is evil.

Steal $200 from a liquor store = 10 years in prison as a danger to society

Steal $200 million from investors = "Thats a darn shame, what can we do about it?"

35 Sol Berdinowitz  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 1:20:46am

re: #34 Kragar

Steal $200 from a liquor store = 10 years in prison as a danger to society

Steal $200 million from investors = "Thats a darn shame, what can we do about it?"

I think it was Berthold Brecht who coined the phrase "Robbing a bank is nothing compared to crime of opening one!"

36 freetoken  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 1:34:58am
37 freetoken  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 1:36:52am
38 Obdicut  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 3:12:49am
39 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Tears  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 3:34:15am

Good morning Lizards. Dawn breaks in Philadelphia.

40 Obdicut  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 5:23:53am

Republican Loses Appeal Over Intimidation of Hispanic Voters

A Republican congressional candidate cannot contest the search he faced after his campaign threatened Hispanic voters, the 9th Circuit ruled Friday.

About a month before the 2006 midterm elections, some 14,000 Hispanic immigrants in California's 47th District received a letter warning them that, if they voted, "their personal information would be collected by a 'new computer system,' and that this information could be provided to organizations who are 'against immigration,'" according to the court. The letter went out only to residents with Hispanic surnames who had been born outside the United States and had registered Democrat or no party affiliation.

When recipients complained, an investigation by the California Attorney General's office led to Tan Nguyen, a Republican candidate hoping to unseat incumbent Democrat Loretta Sanchez in the Orange County district.

Nguyen denied knowledge of the letter, but a magistrate judge issued a search warrant based on a probable violation of California's voter-intimidation law. A raid of Nguyen's home and campaign headquarters turned up "emails showing greater involvement by the defendant in the drafting and mailing of the letter than he had previously acknowledged."

41 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 5:55:41am

Israel Shamir about "Pussy Riot":

[Link: israel-shamir.livejournal.com...]

The best option would be to burn them at the stake on the bank of the Moskva river, to shove the ashes down the stream, and to sprinkle with salt the place where the fire had been - but the river ice has not come down yet. Vigilante justice is the best solution to such problems. The blasphemers don't suffer too long, no need to pay for pettifoggers and prisons, and this discourages others.

42 Obdicut  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 5:57:33am

re: #41 Liberal Entity

And who is that torture-porn lover?

43 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 6:01:05am

re: #42 Obdicut

You don't know Shamir?

44 Obdicut  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 6:04:53am

re: #43 Liberal Entity

Oh, now I remember him, from the wikileaks connection.

45 kirkspencer  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 6:10:45am

My wife listened to the Artificial Heart straight through, turned to me, and said, "Someone has had a bad breakup. Wonder who she was?"

46 Obdicut  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 6:17:20am

re: #41 Liberal Entity

Is there anything actually known about his origins?

47 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 6:21:16am

re: #46 Obdicut

Off the top of my head, original name was Izrail Shmerler, born in Novosibirsk to a fervently Zionist father (whose letter is cited by Kostyrchenko in his Tajnaya politika Stalina), was a fervent Zionist himself, emigrated to Israel, evolved into an anti-Zionist and antisemite, got baptized.

48 Obdicut  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 6:24:34am

re: #47 Liberal Entity

I wonder what the hell happened.

49 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 6:27:44am

re: #48 Obdicut

"Self-hating Jew" is overused, but this is a classic case.

50 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 6:30:20am

re: #48 Obdicut

[Link: www.tabletmag.com...]

[Link: www.tabletmag.com...]

51 Obdicut  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 6:32:58am

re: #50 Liberal Entity

Wow, when Finkelstein thinks you're a maniac...

52 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 6:36:20am

re: #51 Obdicut

Wow, when Finkelstein thinks you're a maniac...

In several recent years Finkelstein's rhetoric re:Israel came very close to Shamir's, but even then Shamir is light-years ahead of Finky. At least NF is not a Holocaust denier and doesn't spread literal medieval blood libel.

53 Obdicut  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 6:42:18am

re: #52 Liberal Entity

True. The interview you posted above leaves me really no wiser after having read it-- as the author says, he's frozen solid. It's clear that in person he disavows positions he obviously has held in print. And when someone says they're not even interested in what the truth is-- what can you do with that?

54 simoom  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 6:50:00am

David Frum has a short editorial on the Trayvon Martin shooting today, and what I liked was his highlighting what Drudge has really been about over the last many years:

[Link: fullcomment.nationalpost.com...]

“Stand your ground” laws become especially lethal when combined with other new laws that grant people in the majority of U.S. states the right to carry weapons in public, and even concealed weapons.

U.S. gun laws have become more permissive even as U.S. crime rates have sharply declined. Why?

You can read the answer on the past four years’ worth of front pages on the hugely popular website, the Drudge Report. Month in, month out, Drudge spotlights gruesome black-on-white crimes. In a country of 300 million people, there are always examples. These same stories circulate in e-mail chains — and often become the focus of local right-wing talk-radio shows.

The U.S. journalist Mickey Kaus calls it “under-news”: news that never quite emerges into the national media, but that shapes the consciousness of millions of people. And what is being shaped is a conviction among many white people — especially fearful elderly whites in the South — that the Obama presidency has licensed a rampage of black-on-white violence. That’s not what the statistics say. But as Stephen Colbert would say: statistics are elitist.

As is so often the case, Rush Limbaugh gave these new racial fears their most explicit voice. In September 2009, after Drudge publicized an assault on an Illinois school bus, Limbaugh had this to say: “It’s Obama’s America, is it not? Obama’s America — white kids getting beat up on school buses now.”

55 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 6:52:33am

re: #53 Obdicut

There is another guy associated with Counterpunch with the same attitude.

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

My sole concern is indeed to help the Palestinians, and I try to play for keeps. I am not interested in the truth, or justice, or understanding, or anything else, except so far as it serves that purpose. This means, among other things, that if talking about Jewish power doesn't fit my strategy, I won't talk about it.

56 Obdicut  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 6:53:23am

re: #55 Liberal Entity

Heh. And without truth or understanding, how the hell do you know if you're succeeding?

What nutbars.

57 moderatelyradicalliberal  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 7:00:50am

I just say a blurb on MSNBC that the FBI has discovered that Trayvon Martin called 911 shortly before his death. The tape is being analyzed and hasn't been released yet.

Unbelievable.

58 Obdicut  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 7:01:39am

re: #54 simoom

The number of voices pushing the fear of blacks has been really amazing. In addition, the modern GOP has clearly simply given up on trying to get the black vote; their position towards the black community is, at best, a hectoringly patronizing one, and at worst, also directly inflames fears about black criminality.

59 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 7:01:55am

re: #57 moderatelyradicalliberal

Wow.

60 Obdicut  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 7:04:56am

And, not to forget other miscarriages of justice and authority:

Sandusky labeled 'likely pedophile' in 1998 report

NBC News has obtained the complete file on the investigation – the police report and assessments by two psychologists who interviewed the boys -- which provides new details about Sandusky’s behavior. It also could raise fresh questions about how school and local authorities handled his case.

“There was very little doubt in my mind (Sandusky) … was a male predator, someone that was in the process of grooming a young man for abuse ,” said Chambers, speaking publicly for the first time, with the permission of her client’s family, in an interview with NBC News. “I thought…my report was strong enough to suggest that this was somebody who should be watched.”

61 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 7:05:59am

re: #60 Obdicut

So you went to msnbc too, and didn't find it too ;) I guess it was on TV.

62 moderatelyradicalliberal  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 7:14:48am

I just say a blurb on MSNBC that the FBI has discovered that Trayvon Martin called 911 shortly before his death. The tape is being analyzed and hasn't been released yet.

Unbelievable. re: #58 Obdicut

The number of voices pushing the fear of blacks has been really amazing. In addition, the modern GOP has clearly simply given up on trying to get the black vote; their position towards the black community is, at best, a hectoringly patronizing one, and at worst, also directly inflames fears about black criminality.

The label of criminality is the oldest form of exploiting prejudice. It's been used against other groups like the Irish, but they eventually got to become white people. Despite what Heraldo Rivera says, Emmitt Till was not wearing a hoodie.

63 darthstar  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 7:26:08am

Ugh...I feel like crap. Sore throat, cough, stuffy head...no skiing today, but it's goin gto be a long 220 mile drive home over the Sierras today. I don't like being sick. I don't get sick...fuck.

Good morning, everyone.

64 kirkspencer  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 7:33:07am

re: #58 Obdicut

The number of voices pushing the fear of blacks has been really amazing. In addition, the modern GOP has clearly simply given up on trying to get the black vote; their position towards the black community is, at best, a hectoringly patronizing one, and at worst, also directly inflames fears about black criminality.

I think there are several people in the GOP who see this as well as the flight of the other minorities, and the recent wake-up and flee of women, and are trying to figure out what to do about it.

And an awful lot of them are thinking stupid solutions instead of real ones. So we'll see Rubio or Cain or Haley offered the VP slot because "of course they'll come back for one of their own." Heck, I wouldn't be shocked if Condoleeza Rice was offered the slot.

Notice, not change the underlying cause of the flight. Just put on a better mask.

65 Gus  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 7:39:01am

re: #57 moderatelyradicalliberal

I just say a blurb on MSNBC that the FBI has discovered that Trayvon Martin called 911 shortly before his death. The tape is being analyzed and hasn't been released yet.

Unbelievable.

[Link: abclocal.go.com...]

@2:40

Not yet confirmed.

66 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 7:40:27am

Morning all!

I feel like crap.

HOw are you?

67 Obdicut  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 7:40:32am

re: #65 Gus

I thought he was on the phone with his girlfriend right up to the moment Zimmerman accosted him.

Maybe he called 911 first.

68 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 7:41:44am

re: #64 kirkspencer

I think there are several people in the GOP who see this as well as the flight of the other minorities, and the recent wake-up and flee of women, and are trying to figure out what to do about it.

And an awful lot of them are thinking stupid solutions instead of real ones. So we'll see Rubio or Cain or Haley offered the VP slot because "of course they'll come back for one of their own." Heck, I wouldn't be shocked if Condoleeza Rice was offered the slot.

Notice, not change the underlying cause of the flight. Just put on a better mask.

I think Condi told them were to go a while back. She says she is very happy being back at Stanford.

69 Gus  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 7:43:07am

re: #67 Obdicut

I thought he was on the phone with his girlfriend right up to the moment Zimmerman accosted him.

Maybe he called 911 first.

Heard about that. Don't know about a 911 call other than this. Could just be the local ABC guy was confused or something. That's the only place I've seen it reported.

70 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 7:45:43am

re: #60 Obdicut

And, not to forget other miscarriages of justice and authority:

Sandusky labeled 'likely pedophile' in 1998 report

I now feel worse than crap.

71 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 7:50:56am

Have a great day all!

72 sattv4u2  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 8:01:46am

getting ready to order food to be delivered to work for lunch and dinner

what to have , what to have,,,,

73 Obdicut  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 8:04:00am

Here's another case of the 'stand your ground' law leading to charges being thrown out.

[Link: www.miamiherald.com...]

The text of the law clearly states that the right to use deadly force begins at the moment of the 'attack'. The pursuit prior to the attack isn't relevant, which is why these judges are ruling in this fashion.

The cases where it's thrown out are the cases where the attacker-- sorry, the 'defender'-- uses excessive force, shooting or stabbing multiple times. For the one shot, one-stab murders, they're being let off.

The problematic part of the law is that it simply says that if you are somewhere you have a right to be and are not committing a crime, you have a right to be there. Chasing someone, following someone, confronting someone-- none of these are crimes.

74 Killgore Trout  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 8:06:01am

re: #68 ggt

I think Condi told them were to go a while back. She says she is very happy being back at Stanford.

I think she voted for Obama. As did Powel. The party left them.

75 sattv4u2  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 8:06:54am

re: #74 Killgore Trout

I owe you an apology, btw

76 Killgore Trout  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 8:08:11am

re: #75 sattv4u2

I owe you an apology, btw

Probably not, I'm not big on apologies. Why? What did I miss?

77 sattv4u2  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 8:09:05am

re: #76 Killgore Trout

Probably not, I'm not big on apologies. Why? What did I miss?

The other day I "took" three out of the bottom 10 comments slots depriving you of a clean sweep!!!

///

:)

78 Killgore Trout  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 8:09:33am

Speaking of apologies...

Maher’s Attacks on Women

Our message to Mr. Maher and his ilk is: Please start apologizing.

PENNY LEE
KIRSTEN POWERS
Washington, March 23, 2012

Ms. Lee is the former executive director of the Democratic Governors Association. Ms. Powers is a political commentator who worked in the Clinton administration.

79 wrenchwench  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 8:09:55am

re: #25 sagehen

Is it just me, or does it seem there's been a whole lot of Jonathan Coulton threads lately? None of which have been Code Monkey... or maybe that one had a thread way back when it was new. But just in case anybody missed it:

[Embedded content]

Four years ago today!

80 Killgore Trout  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 8:10:33am

re: #77 sattv4u2

The other day I "took" three out of the bottom 10 comments slots depriving you of a clean sweep!!!

///

:)

You heartless bastard!
/

81 Interesting Times  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 8:12:06am

Hahahaha look at the picture - so perfect a symbol of Mitt you almost wonder if they planned it :P

Image: Aowp6HACEAMShEv.jpg

82 sattv4u2  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 8:12:36am

what to order ,, what to order

Pizza and subs ,,,,, Chinese,,,,,, Tex/ Mex ,,,,,

hmmmmmm

83 Henchman Ghazi-808  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 8:20:37am

The Right Goes Nuts Over Obama's Trayvon Comments
Following along with theme of racial paranoia set by Glenn Beck's website The Blaze, conservative media icon Matt Drudge's page stoked fears of "retaliation," citing Louis Farrakhan. Conservative columnist Michelle Malkin accused Obama of "political opportunism" and trying to "pour gas on the fire" for empathizing with Martin's parents. The Daily Caller appears to have discovered the Trayvon Martin case on Thursday of this week, but it had already decided that the most important angle was what the New Black Panther Party thought. Perhaps that was to lay the groundwork for Friday's piece by Matthew Boyle, which implies a causal link between the Panthers' outrage and Obama's remarks on the subject. Going to the New Black Panthers to find out what black people think is like going to the Ku Klux Klan to find out what white people think, except if the KKK were a bunch of clowns who no one cares about instead of a group with a history of racist terrorism.

84 Gus  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 8:27:08am

Hahaha! A letter from Kirsten Powers.

85 jaunte  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 8:27:48am

re: #83 Kronocide

fears of "retaliation"

A guilty conscience is the mother of invention.

86 Obdicut  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 8:31:39am

re: #85 jaunte

A guilty conscience is the mother of invention.

That really is a big part of it, though, I think. This comes up again and again, with the conspiracy stories about the DOJ prosecuting only whites, with the bullshit about affirmative action deprives whites of their jobs, with the constant fear-mongering about black 'rage'. It's always funny to me that right-wing media blowhards talk about how liberals suffer from 'white guilt', because, to me, one of the clearer signs of feeling guilty is worrying about the aggrieved party enacting vengeance on you.

87 Henchman Ghazi-808  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 8:34:56am

re: #86 Obdicut

See people who cry racism are the real racists and other mind numbingly stupid statements. Funny, I rarely if ever hear liberals say crap like that, seems to be conservatives.

88 jaunte  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 8:35:19am

re: #86 Obdicut

There has to be something other than political logic working on them, to keep doing things that make them look incredibly callous. Even Mitch McConnell, of the unseat the president priority, is sounding very reasonable on this:

On Friday, Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell (R-Ky.) called Martin's death "an incredible tragedy" and said "I'm glad it's being investigated and we'll take a look at it as the investigation moves along."

89 Gus  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 8:43:29am

Another day in America.

PHOTOS: Fatal shooting on Dayton in Aurora

A man was found with a gunshot wound in an SUV in Aurora on Friday, March 23, 2012. He was taken to the hospital and pronounced dead.

90 Henchman Ghazi-808  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 8:43:52am

Abortion foes do live ultrasounds in Idaho Capitol

I missed this.

Look at this beautiful baby inside you that you're about to murder. Why would you want to murder this baby?

91 sattv4u2  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 8:52:58am

re: #89 Gus

Another day in America.

PHOTOS: Fatal shooting on Dayton in Aurora

Another day in Syria too!!

[Link: news.yahoo.com...]

:(

92 Henchman Ghazi-808  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 9:02:41am

Republican Congressman Tells Women At Equal Rights Rally To Support Democrats

On Thursday during a rally in support of the Equal Rights Amendment, GOP Rep. Richard Hanna of New York told the women in attendance to throw their support to Democratic candidates if they want their rights protected.

93 wrenchwench  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 9:02:51am

re: #90 Kronocide

Abortion foes do live ultrasounds in Idaho Capitol

I missed this.

Look at this beautiful baby inside you that you're about to murder. Why would you want to murder this baby?

Remember when they did that in Congress? My comment then:

13 wrenchwench10/13/2011 3:30:57 pm PDT

I wonder why they didn't do one of those internal transducer sonograms on a really young "pre-born child"?

Let's see, where is that little fella?

OMG!! it's implanted in your Fallopian tube! You're gonna die!!!

94 Henchman Ghazi-808  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 9:09:01am
Most Republicans have tried to spin their war on women as something imagined by Democrats, but that’s not the case. The GOP is simply full of damn liars who want nothing more than to take a hatchet to women’s rights in the effort to make women subservient to men. To most Republicans, women shouldn’t have a say in anything, and Richard Hanna understands this. That’s why he is rebelling against his own party. And Hanna can’t exactly call himself a moderate either. He votes with his party 85% of the time, opposes the Affordable Care Act, and is a member of the Cato Institute and the NRA. So if an entrenched Republican is outraged at the GOP for the war on women, you know that the Republican Party has gone way too far.
95 Henchman Ghazi-808  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 9:21:16am

Elite media's biggest liberal offenders

Beating the false equivalent between Rush and Ed Shultz.

96 Henchman Ghazi-808  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 9:23:24am

Trying to compare Chris Mathews to Rush: Mathews calls Bachmann a 'balloonhead' and it's a women's issue.

Outright propaganda.

97 Obdicut  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 9:31:41am

re: #95 Kronocide

I've never heard Rush talk about anything related to women without being offensive about it. The whole slut imbroglio was simply the capstone to his whittering on the subject.

Likewise, his race-baiting is a constant. He may never have gotten to the point of saying n***** on air, but what he's saying, what he's trying to get people to think, is even more dangerous.

Obama has not built 'em the new kitchen that he promised or led them to believe that were gonna get in Tampa. And there are no new cars for everybody. And white people are not shining the shoes of black people. Well, I remember that Tampa fundraiser, that Tampa town hall, we had audiotape of some black people who said, "From now on you all are gonna be waiting on us." Remember that? That's what the election meant to some people.

98 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 9:33:17am

re: #82 sattv4u2

what to order ,, what to order

Pizza and subs ,,, Chinese,,, Tex/ Mex ,,,

hmmm

Anything, as long as you add pineapple.

99 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 9:34:30am

re: #97 Obdicut

He's like a child that dares not say "the word" but uses various tricks to get there.

100 sattv4u2  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 9:36:30am

re: #98 Liberal Entity

Anything, as long as you add pineapple.

found a compromise. Chinese AND Tex/Mex

A place called Chico and Changs here in Atlanta!!

Best of both worlds!!

101 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 9:37:23am

re: #87 Kronocide

See people who cry racism are the real racists and other mind numbingly stupid statements. Funny, I rarely if ever hear liberals say crap like that, seems to be conservatives.

Yeah, well, someone like Michelle Malkin and her ilk will usually use the mocking spelling - "RAAACISM!". I.e., there's no more racism, it's overused, blah blah blah. Then they will cry "racism" - no sarcasm or whatever, in fact with all the outrage - whenever a person from a minority group is accused of it on flimsiest pretext - cf. Bell.

102 blueraven  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 9:39:51am

re: #96 Kronocide

Trying to compare Chris Mathews to Rush: Mathews calls Bachmann a 'balloonhead' and it's a women's issue.

Outright propaganda.

You can expect Fox news to step it up over the next 7 months. Every story they do slants negative against the President, when they are not outright lies.

Their obsession about F&F, Solyndra, gas prices...lies about Obamacare and the cost. Class war fare, war on religion, fake unemployment numbers...you name it.

103 jaunte  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 9:40:50am

Trayvon Case Not Exactly Top Priority for Florida's GOP Governor

Scott's chosen prosecutor has been attacked by a respected law school dean as having "no enthusiasm for defending citizens," and the task force will be led by his lieutenant governor, with its members picked by Bondi and four top state legislators—all of them pro-gun Republicans.
...
In December, he tried to connect with a group of black student protesters by mentioning that he'd once lived in public housing. ("We're not poor!" one of them shouted back.)
...
At another dinner with black leaders where he recycled his public housing line, black lawmakers again grumbled. "He assumed that everyone (in the room) was poor and that can only be because you're black," Betty Reid (D-Tampa) said.

104 Henchman Ghazi-808  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 9:40:58am

It's nothing more than childish antagonism under the guise of 'biting commentary.' At it's core, it's just base antagonism. That is Rush, Malkin, Loesch, and the rest of em.

105 Henchman Ghazi-808  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 9:45:34am

And Malkin, seemingly on queue:

Conservative pundit Michelle Malkin told a rally of conservative activists Saturday that "Wisconsin really is ground zero in the battle against the unhinged progressive left."

Malkin was a featured speaker at the Americans for Prosperity Foundation "Saving the American Dream Summit."

Malkin asked the crowd to stand and cheer for the conservative blogger Andrew Breitbart, who died earlier this year.

She praised Lt. Gov. Rebecca Kleefisch and said "conservative women need to stand with her."

"We need to stand up, we need to push back, we need to tell our stories loudly and unapologetically," Malkin added.

"We are united in defending the American dream. They are united in sabotaging it, undermining it and transforming it," she said. "America doesn't need to be transformed. We need to be restored."

"These people whether they're in the White House, whether it's David Axelrod, Jim Messina or that crony mogul Valerie Jarrett .. it's no joke that these people have as one of their underlying agendas the criminalization of conservative dissent," she said.

106 Interesting Times  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 9:47:24am

re: #105 Kronocide

And Malkin, seemingly on queue:

Racist defender of Japanese internment sez whut?

107 Henchman Ghazi-808  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 9:47:26am

Sez the woman with a mini blog empire and regular guest spots on the most popular news network in America.

108 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 9:56:01am

re: #106 Interesting Times

Racist defender of Japanese internment sez whut?

Wait, wait, she's not white! It's OK! //

109 Henchman Ghazi-808  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 9:57:05am

re: #106 Interesting Times

Racist defender of Japanese internment sez whut?

She sez 'But but but danger danger.'

110 Interesting Times  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 9:58:56am

re: #108 Liberal Entity

Wait, wait, she's not white! It's OK! //

Honestly, defending race-based internment is Stormfront material. The fact someone who wrote bigotry-filled bilge like that is a major "conservative" voice says a lot about "conservatives", and none of it good.

111 Henchman Ghazi-808  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 10:00:23am

Bryan Fischer and The Blaze flare up the HEK-293/Semonyx Stem Cell = Food conspiracy theory.

113 wrenchwench  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 10:05:06am

re: #112 Kronocide

Stupid Right Wing Tweets: Erick Erickson Edition

I had not heard that Jesus was in charge of when Erick Erickson should die.

114 jaunte  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 10:05:25am

re: #105 Kronocide

it's no joke that these people have as one of their underlying agendas the criminalization of conservative dissent

No evidence for that, it just "feels" like it?

115 Killgore Trout  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 10:06:10am

re: #100 sattv4u2

found a compromise. Chinese AND Tex/Mex

A place called Chico and Changs here in Atlanta!!

Best of both worlds!!

Next time you should order this!
Tacocopter Aims To Deliver Tacos Using Unmanned Drone Helicopters

116 Henchman Ghazi-808  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 10:08:57am

Oh my:

Matt Herron ‏ @MatthewOfTwitte
@EricBoehlert Hey ****, your lackeys have to try harder than that to intimidate @ewerickson. Epic fail by your **** force at Media Matters

I want to join up in the **** Force! We could all talk to each other with Faux Brit accents.

(Yes, that's the C word)

117 jaunte  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 10:10:12am

re: #116 Kronocide

New technique to get more retweets?

118 wrenchwench  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 10:12:08am

re: #114 jaunte

No evidence for that, it just "feels" like it?

'Victim' looks particularly pathetic on her.

119 Winny Spencer  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 10:13:45am
120 Interesting Times  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 10:13:53am

re: #116 Kronocide

LOL. Idiotic Erick Erickson haz a sad because his best defenders are white-hood-wearing wanks.

121 sattv4u2  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 10:14:11am

re: #115 Killgore Trout

Next time you should order this!
Tacocopter Aims To Deliver Tacos Using Unmanned Drone Helicopters

"well nurse,, I was just walking down the street, minding my own business when out of nowhere a Chimichunga hit me right between the eyes!"

122 Henchman Ghazi-808  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 10:14:12am

re: #117 jaunte

New technique to get more retweets?

Maybe. That gave me tears of laughter.

I have a strong suspicion he's not Brit, likely just really pissy.

123 Obdicut  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 10:18:10am

re: #119 Winny Spencer

Witness: Martin attacked Zimmerman

If Martin did 'attack' Zimmerman after having been followed by him, especially if he saw that he was armed, that doesn't really change anything, though. It's been probable since the beginning there was some sort of scuffle.

124 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 10:20:04am

re: #123 Obdicut

It stregnthens GZ's defense under the flawed law.

125 Gus  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 10:20:28am

re: #119 Winny Spencer

Witness: Martin attacked Zimmerman

Let's say this is true. So a strange man approaches you in the dark of night with a hand gun. You've never heard of people attacking their muggers as a last ditch effort? Myself, I've heard of this before. Or do we have a new set of rules in Florida? Anyone who holds a handgun on you has the law behind them?

126 Henchman Ghazi-808  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 10:20:50am

re: #119 Winny Spencer

Witness: Martin attacked Zimmerman

Picked up on winger blogs like wildfire. Doesn't change much if Trayvon confronted Zimmerman, who provoked the confrontation.

127 Obdicut  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 10:21:18am

re: #124 Liberal Entity

It stregnthens GZ's defense under the flawed law.

Yes, absolutely. I mean it doesn't change anything about how flawed the law is.

128 Charles Johnson  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 10:24:55am

re: #124 Liberal Entity

It stregnthens GZ's defense under the flawed law.

Not until this "witness" actually comes forward and testifies publicly instead of trying to remain anonymous. Right now it's nothing more than an unsubstantiated claim.

But even if this is true, the fact remains that Zimmerman initiated the confrontation, and Trayvon had been doing nothing wrong. He was not a criminal, he was not armed, and he was just walking home.

I don't think this changes anything, even if true. And I'm quite certain it's not going to stop the protests.

129 Gus  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 10:25:12am

re: #127 Obdicut

Yes, absolutely. I mean it doesn't change anything about how flawed the law is.

OK. So now a mugger can approach someone on the street. Let's say this mugger has no record. He pulls out his gun and confronts his next victim. A struggle ensues in which the mugger is severely beaten. However, during the struggle the mugger shoots and kills his intended victim. When the police arrive all the mugger has to do is say he was "standing his ground" and that the mugging victim (unknown to the police) attacked him and he shot him in self defense. Great law they have there.

130 Gus  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 10:32:33am

Oh brother.

131 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 10:33:28am

re: #128 Charles Johnson

Whether or not his testimony is unsubstantiated does not depend on his anonymity in the public. His testimony to the police, which is an official document, is not anonymous. I also assume that he won't be anonymous when he will testify in the court.

Also, under the flawed law it doesn't seem to be relevant whether or not the "attacker" was doing nothing wrong - which is why the law is flawed.

132 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 10:34:38am

re: #129 Gus

Yep, that's about it. It not so much legalizes murder as makes it elementary to get away with. Which in effect is the same.

133 Obdicut  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 10:34:38am

re: #129 Gus

And since he wasn't convicted, that couldn't be used in future trials, either. So he could keep on doing that.

134 Varek Raith  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 10:35:56am

Thank you, GOP and NRA for these wonderful laws.
/

135 Obdicut  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 10:36:30am

re: #134 +1 Adidas Hoodie of Justice

Don't forget ALEC.

136 justaminute  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 10:37:18am

I'm pretty sure that Zimmerman lost many of his claims when the 911 operator told him to stand down and not pursue Martin further. Nor did Zimmerman at that time claim that Martin had attacked him.

137 Obdicut  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 10:38:44am

re: #136 justaminute

I'm pretty sure that Zimmerman lost many of his claims when the 911 operator told him to stand down and not pursue Martin further.

But he didn't. He said "We don't need you to do that." That's not telling him to do anything, unfortunately. I wish he had said "Stop following him right now." But he didn't.

138 Charles Johnson  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 10:38:54am

I have to differ, though - I don't think "Stand Your Ground" laws are flawed. I think they're insane.

I think these laws are what happens when right wing fantasies of violence drive public policy.

"Justifiable homicides" have more than tripled in Florida since this law was passed. It's a license to kill.

139 Gus  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 10:39:12am

re: #132 Liberal Entity

Yep, that's about it. It not so much legalizes murder as makes it elementary to get away with. Which in effect is the same.

I'm curious then. Since this law is gun-centric. What would have happened if Martin had killed Zimmerman?

140 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 10:39:18am

re: #129 Gus

Notably, there can be (and are) cases when a person defending themselves will use an unjusitifed amount of power against the attacker. This shouldn't be covered under self-defense - obviously someone's attack doesn't offer a carte blanche. However, the perfidy of the law in question is that it seems to prevent a thorough investigation in such a case.

141 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 10:40:50am

re: #139 Gus

I'm curious then. Since this law is gun-centric. What would have happened if Martin had killed Zimmerman?

Practically? We all know what would happen. In theory? He should have been afforded the same privileges - i.e. his word should have been enough to stop the police in tracks.

142 Obdicut  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 10:41:25am

re: #139 Gus

I'm curious then. Since this law is gun-centric. What would have happened if Martin had killed Zimmerman?

Well, if he'd killed him with one blow, he'd probably have gotten off (if we pretend the justice system and cops are race-blind, which, no). But the cases I've found where this defense was rejected tended to be the ones where the attack/defense was a long one-- multiple stab wounds, etc.

It's pretty hard to kill someone with your bare hands, unless you get 'lucky'. You tend to disable the other person first.

143 justaminute  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 10:44:31am

But the name it self "Stand Your Ground" seems to be protection for a civilian that is "pursued" not a civilian "pursuer".

144 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 10:45:25am

re: #139 Gus

I'm curious then. Since this law is gun-centric. What would have happened if Martin had killed Zimmerman?

It's gun-centric in the sense that the man with the gun will always have the practical upper hand both physically and in a legal sense even if he begins the altercation. But if a gunless guy overcomes, the law will be on his side, practically speaking.

145 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 10:46:19am

re: #143 justaminute

But the name it self "Stand Your Ground" seems to be protection for a civilian that is "pursued" not a civilian "pursuer".

The law is not reducible to its name.

146 Obdicut  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 10:46:41am

re: #144 Liberal Entity

Except that it's pretty easy to prove you didn't have 'reasonable' cause to keep kicking a guy when he was down, or stab him multiple times. In reading other cases under this law I have found a pattern that that's what can get this defense denied-- that the 'defense' went on for too long.

147 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 10:47:38am

re: #146 Obdicut

Yes, but it's because this indeed goes beyond the law.

148 Obdicut  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 10:47:48am

re: #143 justaminute

But the name it self "Stand Your Ground" seems to be protection for a civilian that is "pursued" not a civilian "pursuer".

Yeah, a lot of people have mistakenly thought that the law requires you to be 'standing'. It doesn't. It gives you the right to 'stand' and use lethal force if you're in an area where you have the right to be, are not yourself committing a crime at the time, and you 'reasonably' believe you have to meet 'force with force' to prevent grave injury to yourself, or to stop a violent felony.

149 Sol Berdinowitz  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 10:48:18am

re: #143 justaminute

But the name it self "Stand Your Ground" seems to be protection for a civilian that is "pursued" not a civilian "pursuer".

The law is about allowing armed persons to act as policemen without the training, the oversight or the responsiblities that going with being an officer of the law. And we have seen what it has led to and what it will continue to lead to.

150 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 10:48:26am

re: #146 Obdicut

Obviously, I can also add "... and if the survivor claims defense" - which he may choose not to.

151 blueraven  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 10:48:54am

This so called witness says when he came upon the scuffle it was already in progress. How does he know who the attacker was? If his account is correct, just because Zimmerman was on the bottom doesn't mean that Martin was the aggressor...it just means he was fighting back. Who wouldn't?

152 Sol Berdinowitz  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 10:49:11am

re: #150 Liberal Entity

Obviously, I can also add "... and if the survivor claims defense" - which he may choose not to.

The law encourages you to leave no surviving witnesses...

153 Obdicut  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 10:49:35am

re: #147 Liberal Entity

Yes, but it's because this indeed goes beyond the law.

Right, I'm just pointing out if the gunless guy overcomes, it's rarer for it to be a lethal outcome, and if it is, it often falls outside this. Anyway: guns are one of the few weapons that are legal for (some) to carry that are capable of killing with one small action.

154 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 10:50:41am

re: #151 blueraven

This so called witness says when he came upon the scuffle it was already in progress. How does he know who the attacker was? If his account is correct, just because Zimmerman was on the bottom doesn't mean that Martin was the aggressor...it just means he was fighting back. Who wouldn't?

I don't see where the witness (whom there's no reason to call "so-called") identified Martin as the aggressor in the sense of starting the whole thing.

155 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 10:51:40am

re: #152 Second Amendment Renegation

The law encourages you to leave no surviving witnesses...

- All those old ladies and kittens were attacking me, officer!
- You're free to go.

156 Gus  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 10:52:20am

re: #144 Liberal Entity

It's gun-centric in the sense that the man with the gun will always have the practical upper hand both physically and in a legal sense even if he begins the altercation. But if a gunless guy overcomes, the law will be on his side, practically speaking.

[Embedded content]

I think what the law state seems to be that you can "stand your ground" and kill someone with a gun but you cannot "stand your ground" and beat someone to death (whether with one strike or multiple strikes). The law is clearly written to support gun owners only which was done so with the guidance of the NRA. Martin would likely have been arrested and charged with manslaughter that same night. Especially in consideration that he was a young black male.

157 justaminute  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 10:52:20am

re: #151 blueraven

This so called witness says when he came upon the scuffle it was already in progress. How does he know who the attacker was? If his account is correct, just because Zimmerman was on the bottom doesn't mean that Martin was the aggressor...it just means he was fighting back. Who wouldn't?

If Martin did attack Zimmerman, it could be argued that Martin was asserting his claim to "Stand Your Ground." It's a Catch 22.

158 Interesting Times  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 10:52:34am
159 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 10:54:07am

re: #157 justaminute

If Martin did attack Zimmerman, it could be argued that Martin was asserting his claim to "Stand Your Ground." It's a Catch 22.

Insane law, as Charles says. It seems that those who engage in aggressive self-defense under this law automatically make those attacking them also fall under this law, since an aggressive self-defense is also an attack.

160 Interesting Times  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 10:55:46am

re: #159 Liberal Entity

On another note, who was the Russian (I think) artist who made that image of the marionettes, each bigger than the other and holding the smaller one's strings? You posted it here some time last year...

161 Henchman Ghazi-808  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 10:56:26am

re: #159 Liberal Entity

Insane law, as Charles says. It seems that those who engage in aggressive self-defense under this law automatically make those attacking them also fall under this law, since an aggressive self-defense is also an attack.

The best defense is a good offense

162 justaminute  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 10:57:24am

re: #159 Liberal Entity

Insane law, as Charles says. It seems that those who engage in aggressive self-defense under this law automatically make those attacking them also fall under this law, since an aggressive self-defense is also an attack.

This law seems to legalize "Shoot Out at the OK Corral." We're back to the wild, wild, West.

163 blueraven  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 10:57:25am

re: #154 Liberal Entity

I don't see where the witness (whom there's no reason to call "so-called") identified Martin as the aggressor in the sense of starting the whole thing.

Winny Spencers comment and title that Martin attacked Zimmerman.

re: #119 Winny Spencer

Witness: Martin attacked Zimmerman

There is no evidence that Martin was the attacker, just that there was a scuffle.

164 Obdicut  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 10:58:39am

re: #159 Liberal Entity

Insane law, as Charles says. It seems that those who engage in aggressive self-defense under this law automatically make those attacking them also fall under this law, since an aggressive self-defense is also an attack.

So much hinges on what a 'reasonable' belief that you have to act, is. So far, it's been interpreted as any movement towards you, which is just nuts.

To me, this reminds me of the classical Quaker pacifist parable. If you come across a guy with a smoking gun and a body, and you shoot him, you've got to be prepared to be shot yourself when the next vigilante arrives on the scene and sees you with the smoking gun and two bodies on the ground.

And what if there were two concealed-carry guys, and one of them thought the other one was drawing his weapon? Or really did draw his weapon-- perhaps in response to some perceived threat?

165 Gus  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 10:59:07am

re: #162 justaminute

This law seems to legalize "Shoot Out at the OK Corral." We're back to the wild, wild, West.

Probably worse.

166 Four More Tears  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 10:59:45am

re: #143 justaminute

But the name it self "Stand Your Ground" seems to be protection for a civilian that is "pursued" not a civilian "pursuer".

It gets that name because one previously had the duty to retreat once a situation turned hostile. This does away with that pesky requirement.

167 Gus  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 10:59:56am

re: #164 Obdicut

So much hinges on what a 'reasonable' belief that you have to act, is. So far, it's been interpreted as any movement towards you, which is just nuts.

To me, this reminds me of the classical Quaker pacifist parable. If you come across a guy with a smoking gun and a body, and you shoot him, you've got to be prepared to be shot yourself when the next vigilante arrives on the scene and sees you with the smoking gun and two bodies on the ground.

And what if there were two concealed-carry guys, and one of them thought the other one was drawing his weapon? Or really did draw his weapon-- perhaps in response to some perceived threat?

The fastest draw wins I would imagine.

168 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 11:01:14am

re: #163 blueraven

But you said the witness said this. There's no such indication in the direct quotes. That's an interpretation by whoever wrote the article.

169 Obdicut  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 11:01:46am

re: #162 justaminute

This law seems to legalize "Shoot Out at the OK Corral." We're back to the wild, wild, West.

Many towns in the Old West required you to check your weapons as you came into town.

[Link: articles.latimes.com...]

[Link: www.huffingtonpost.com...]

Image: what_the-460x307.jpg

170 sattv4u2  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 11:02:09am

re: #166 Altar Boy of Darwinism

It gets that name because one previously had the duty to retreat once a situation turned hostile. This does away with that pesky requirement.

Even the "duty to retreat' statutes allowed for deadly force usage. You just had to show that you tried to avoid the conflict 1st

171 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 11:02:49am

re: #164 Obdicut

Aside from the situation at hand, that description is quite comical, something out of 1920s comedies ;)

172 sattv4u2  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 11:03:22am

re: #171 Liberal Entity

Aside from the situation at hand, that description is quite comical, something out of 1920s comedies ;)

Or Mad Magazine, Spy v Spy !!

173 Four More Tears  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 11:03:27am

re: #169 Obdicut

Many towns in the Old West required you to check your weapons as you came into town.

[Link: articles.latimes.com...]

[Link: www.huffingtonpost.com...]

Image: what_the-460x307.jpg

"Prickly Ash Bitters" sounds so dirty to me in this day and age...

174 Kragar  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 11:03:52am
175 Gus  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 11:04:07am

re: #169 Obdicut

Many towns in the Old West required you to check your weapons as you came into town.

[Link: articles.latimes.com...]

[Link: www.huffingtonpost.com...]

Image: what_the-460x307.jpg

Hollywood movies versus reality.

176 Obdicut  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 11:04:14am

re: #171 Liberal Entity

Aside from the situation at hand, that description is quite comical, something out of 1920s comedies ;)

Heh. It really struck me when I was a kid-- I was a really violent kid, and I had the luck to make friends with some Quakers, and to start taking jujitsu, and the two of those together got me to be able to control my rage and violent tendencies. I'd probably be in prison otherwise, deservedly.

177 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 11:04:23am

Just got back. The kid actually agreed to run errands with me.

I must have please some god today.

How is everyone?

178 justaminute  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 11:04:42am

re: #167 Gus

The fastest draw wins I would imagine.

The fastest drawl didn't always win, the most accurate shot often did.

179 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 11:05:08am

re: #170 sattv4u2

Even the "duty to retreat' statutes allowed for deadly force usage. You just had to show that you tried to avoid the conflict 1st

Like staying IN YOUR TRUCK or driving away?

180 prairiefire  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 11:05:27am

re: #174 Kragar

Voter Turnout Appears Light in Louisiana Primary

Another GOP snoozefest.

That seems to be the pattern for their primary season. I wonder how much more enthusiasm they will have when they are ready to vote against Obama in November.

181 Four More Tears  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 11:05:34am

re: #170 sattv4u2

Even the "duty to retreat' statutes allowed for deadly force usage. You just had to show that you tried to avoid the conflict 1st

And even if you fail at that, you get your trial by jury, and a convinction because you failed to retreat when there was an obvious threat would be harder to get out of actual human people.

182 Charles Johnson  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 11:06:32am

re: #154 Liberal Entity

I don't see where the witness (whom there's no reason to call "so-called") identified Martin as the aggressor in the sense of starting the whole thing.

The witness may not have identified Trayvon as the aggressor, but that Fox article certainly does -- right in the headline.

183 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 11:06:38am

re: #163 blueraven

Winny Spencers comment and title that Martin attacked Zimmerman.

re: #119 Winny Spencer

There is no evidence that Martin was the attacker, just that there was a scuffle.

There would have been no scuffle, IF HE HAD STAYED IN HIS TRUCK.

no?

184 blueraven  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 11:06:46am

re: #168 Liberal Entity

But you said the witness said this. There's no such indication in the direct quotes. That's an interpretation by whoever wrote the article.

No, I said the witness said he saw the scuffle, we already knew there was one. He said Zimmerman was on the ground. My question was how would he know who the attacker was, not that he said that.

So how does the headline become Martin attacked Zimmerman? That is what I have a problem with.

185 Four More Tears  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 11:06:56am

re: #180 prairiefire

That seems to be the pattern for their primary season. I wonder how much more enthusiasm they will have when they are ready to vote against Obama in November.

They have some serious mehmentum...

186 sattv4u2  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 11:07:01am

re: #179 ggt

Like staying IN YOUR TRUCK or driving away?

it was more intended for when someone broke into your home. Under the theory, getting out of the house was preferable to confronting those breaking in

187 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 11:07:53am

re: #160 Interesting Times

On another note, who was the Russian (I think) artist who made that image of the marionettes, each bigger than the other and holding the smaller one's strings? You posted it here some time last year...

[Link: www.chevalfineart.com...]

188 Obdicut  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 11:07:56am

re: #186 sattv4u2

it was more intended for when someone broke into your home. Under the theory, getting out of the house was preferable to confronting those breaking in

Very true. Just get out, call the cops.

189 Lidane  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 11:08:26am

re: #179 ggt

Like staying IN YOUR TRUCK or driving away?

Seriously. The moment he got out of his truck and started chasing the kid on foot, he lost his "self-defense" argument IMO. He was acting as part of the Neighborhood Watch, not part of the Neighborhood Police Department. What right did he have to get out of his truck and chase this kid with a gun?

190 Four More Tears  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 11:08:41am

re: #183 ggt

There would have been no scuffle, IF HE HAD STAYED IN HIS TRUCK.

no?

Correct, but he had every right to get out of his truck. He had a right to be where he was.

Don't confuse this with me defending him, I'm just presenting the argument his defense would make.

191 goddamnedfrank  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 11:08:47am

re: #143 justaminute

But the name it self "Stand Your Ground" seems to be protection for a civilian that is "pursued" not a civilian "pursuer".

The titles of laws can be deceptive, for instance "Right to Work" means the right to be fired without cause.

192 Sol Berdinowitz  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 11:09:35am

re: #190 Altar Boy of Darwinism

Correct, but he had every right to get out of his truck. He had a right to be where he was.

Don't confuse this with me defending him, I'm just presenting the argument his defense would make.

And you have described exactly why he is going to walk...

He has the law on his side.

193 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 11:09:42am

re: #190 Altar Boy of Darwinism

Correct, but he had every right to get out of his truck. He had a right to be where he was.

Don't confuse this with me defending him, I'm just presenting the argument his defense would make.

AS I understand it, he disobeyed 911.

194 Four More Tears  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 11:09:42am

re: #191 goddamnedfrank

The titles of laws can be deceptive, for instance "Right to Work" means the right to be fired without cause.

And Orwell wept...

195 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 11:09:42am

re: #182 Charles Johnson

Yes, I noted that above. This shows the writer's bias, but doesn't tell us about the veracity of the witness.

196 Four More Tears  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 11:10:41am

re: #193 ggt

AS I understand it, he disobeyed 911.

But I don't think that was what is considered a lawful order.

197 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 11:10:49am

re: #192 Second Amendment Renegation

And you have described exactly why he is going to walk...

He has the law on his side.

I don't know. They tell you to stay in your car if you are pulled over. Getting out of the car can be seen as an act of aggression by the cop.

198 Obdicut  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 11:10:57am

re: #193 ggt

AS I understand it, he disobeyed 911.

Nope. They said "We don't need you to do that". They didn't tell him "Don't do that."

199 wrenchwench  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 11:11:04am

re: #184 blueraven

So how does the headline become Martin attacked Zimmerman? That is what I have a problem with.

It goes through the Fox editor's filter.

200 sattv4u2  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 11:11:04am

re: #193 ggt

AS I understand it, he disobeyed 911.

{sigh],, we've been through this before

911 gave him (Zimmerman) no command TO obey

They should have, but it wasn't

201 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 11:12:38am

re: #200 sattv4u2

Suppose they would give such a command. Is that binding?

202 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 11:12:46am

re: #200 sattv4u2

{sigh],, we've been through this before

911 gave him (Zimmerman) no command TO obey

They should have, but it wasn't

Well, the fallout from this will be felt thru-out the nation.

203 Lidane  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 11:12:58am

re: #192 Second Amendment Renegation

And you have described exactly why he is going to walk...

He has the law on his side.

What's really pathetic is that the law wouldn't be applied if the circumstances were reversed. If Martin was the older, bigger, armed vigilante wannabe with a cop fetish, and Zimmerman had been the unarmed teen walking back from the store with Skittles and a drink, none of this would be a topic of conversation. Martin would be in jail right now awaiting trial for murder, and we'd be reading from all the usual suspects about how the "stand your ground" law doesn't apply.

204 Henchman Ghazi-808  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 11:13:19am

re: #191 goddamnedfrank

The titles of laws can be deceptive, for instance "Right to Work" means the right to be fired without cause.

Right To Life means uterine domination.

205 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 11:13:29am
206 Charles Johnson  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 11:13:37am

re: #189 Lidane

Seriously. The moment he got out of his truck and started chasing the kid on foot, he lost his "self-defense" argument IMO. He was acting as part of the Neighborhood Watch, not part of the Neighborhood Police Department. What right did he have to get out of his truck and chase this kid with a gun?

Actually, Zimmerman was not even part of any official "Neighborhood Watch" group. He was a self-appointed busybody.

No legitimate Neighborhood Watch group goes around armed. They're supposed to watch and report, not take the place of the police and kill people.

207 sattv4u2  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 11:14:03am

re: #201 Liberal Entity

Suppose they would give such a command. Is that binding?

Good question. i'm sure it could be argued that you disobeyed the legal order of a law enforcement agent (like someone above noted a cop telling you not to get out of the vehicle,,, if you do, you're charged)

208 Killgore Trout  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 11:14:16am

re: #201 Liberal Entity

Suppose they would give such a command. Is that binding?

I don't think so. 911 operators aren't law enforcement so I doubt they can give lawful orders.

209 justaminute  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 11:14:18am

Another question that I have; Did Zimmerman ever identify himself as some kind of a person on neighborhood watch to Martin? Zimmerman of course, had no right to pursue. But I've not read anything about Zimmerman confronting him verbally just physically.

210 Henchman Ghazi-808  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 11:14:26am

Charles, between Riehl and that derp on Examiner, the Wingularity is really near today.

211 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 11:15:13am

re: #205 ggt

teehee

Execute not pardon.

212 Sol Berdinowitz  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 11:15:22am

re: #203 Lidane

...we'd be reading from all the usual suspects about how the "stand your ground" law doesn't apply.

We've got Alan West, Jeb Bush and the creator of the law telling us it does not apply. But it still creates enough wiggle room for him to come up with a plusible defense, one that is likely going to get him acquitted.

213 Henchman Ghazi-808  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 11:15:40am

re: #210 Kronocide

Charles, between Riehl and that derp on Examiner, the Wingularity is really near today.

Oh how cute, Loesch has picked up the Lightened Photo nontroversy.

I smell a new thread....

214 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 11:15:48am

re: #208 Killgore Trout

I suspect so too.

215 Interesting Times  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 11:15:55am

re: #174 Kragar

Voter Turnout Appears Light in Louisiana Primary

Another GOP snoozefest.

216 Four More Tears  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 11:16:13am

re: #202 ggt

Well, the fallout from this will be felt thru-out the nation.

Want to see it get worse? Put this guy on trial and watch him get acquitted. If that happens... hide yo' kids, hide yo' wife...

217 Targetpractice  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 11:16:19am

re: #208 Killgore Trout

I don't think so. 911 operators aren't law enforcement so I doubt they can give lawful orders.

Considering if they give you an order and it gets you or another innocent killed, they'd be held legally liable, most 911 centers probably run on the policy that they cannot explicitly order you to do anything.

218 Lidane  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 11:16:31am

re: #206 Charles Johnson

Actually, Zimmerman was not even part of any official "Neighborhood Watch" group. He was a self-appointed busybody.

All true. In fact, I'd wager that his appointing himself as the neighborhood police officer only fed his Dirty Harry fantasies of being the big bad armed hero that saves the day.

No legitimate Neighborhood Watch group goes around armed. They're supposed to watch and report, not take the place of the police and kill people.

Exactly. Which is why he gave up his right to make a self-defense claim the moment he got out of his truck, IMO. As soon as he started chasing that kid on foot, he became the aggressor. Simple as that.

219 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 11:16:36am

re: #208 Killgore Trout

I don't think so. 911 operators aren't law enforcement so I doubt they can give lawful orders.

I have a friend who is a 911 OFFICER. She is definitely a cop. Perhaps it is different in different states.

220 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 11:17:33am

re: #211 Liberal Entity

Execute not pardon.

Better yet: to execute impossible to pardon.

221 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 11:17:40am

re: #216 Altar Boy of Darwinism

Want to see it get worse? Put this guy on trial and watch him get acquitted. If that happens... hide yo' kids, hide yo' wife...

yep

222 sattv4u2  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 11:18:21am

re: #218 Lidane

he gave up his right to make a self-defense claim the moment he got out of his truck

Not according to the Fla law. As long as he he was somewhere he has a legal right to be!

223 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 11:18:49am

Yeah, how about outlawing vigilantes? Unarmed NW - good. Armed NW = vigilantes.

224 Sol Berdinowitz  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 11:19:09am

re: #220 Liberal Entity

Better yet: to execute impossible to pardon.

hang the muthaf*ckah......not

225 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 11:19:30am

re: #206 Charles Johnson

Actually, Zimmerman was not even part of any official "Neighborhood Watch" group. He was a self-appointed busybody.

No legitimate Neighborhood Watch group goes around armed. They're supposed to watch and report, not take the place of the police and kill people.

interestinger and interestinger.

226 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 11:19:39am

re: #224 Second Amendment Renegation

hang the muthaf*ckah...not

The important thing is not to go Borat on this.

227 Political Atheist  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 11:20:10am

re: #207 sattv4u2

I just got my Page up on this. I spent some time on this one.
[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

228 justaminute  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 11:21:29am

re: #216 Altar Boy of Darwinism

Want to see it get worse? Put this guy on trial and watch him get acquitted. If that happens... hide yo' kids, hide yo' wife...

Yes, this could open a whole can of worms; civilian car chases, with guns for instance.

229 Henchman Ghazi-808  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 11:21:37am
230 Political Atheist  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 11:22:01am

re: #157 justaminute

If Martin did attack Zimmerman, it could be argued that Martin was asserting his claim to "Stand Your Ground." It's a Catch 22.

Weak argument. As weak as a fist is vs a gun.

231 Killgore Trout  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 11:22:21am

re: #227 Daniel Ballard

I just got my Page up on this. I spent some time on this one.
[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

...

We have good reason to set assumptions aside as best we can. If we blame the law when prosecutors or police are mishandling the law or citizens we are not going to get a good solution.

232 sattv4u2  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 11:22:37am

re: #227 Daniel Ballard

I just got my Page up on this. I spent some time on this one.
[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

Heard something somewhere that Zimmerman's own lawyer is saying that the "stand your ground" law has nothing to do with this case. I'll start searching

233 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 11:23:24am

re: #232 sattv4u2

Well, it already did.

234 sattv4u2  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 11:23:33am

re: #233 Liberal Entity

Well, it already did.

heh

235 Political Atheist  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 11:24:12am

re: #232 sattv4u2

Heard something somewhere that Zimmerman's own lawyer is saying that the "stand your ground" law has nothing to do with this case. I'll start searching

I saw that and I think he missed it, he mentioned how it's not applicable as part of the Castle doctrine and that is right. But the text goes on the include "places you have a right to be" (quote may be paraphrased a bit).

236 Four More Tears  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 11:24:15am

re: #232 sattv4u2

Heard something somewhere that Zimmerman's own lawyer is saying that the "stand your ground" law has nothing to do with this case. I'll start searching

o.O That law is the only thing that saves his client.

237 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 11:24:37am

The GOP will probably suggest the resolution to this is to outlaw hoodies.

/;0

I'm outta here for a while, chores to do.

238 sattv4u2  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 11:25:27am

re: #236 Altar Boy of Darwinism

o.O That law is the only thing that saves his client.

Oh I know. Thats why I was surprised to hear him say that. But until (unless) Zimmerman is charged with something it really doesn;'t matter what the lawyer says

239 Targetpractice  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 11:25:51am

I'm curious as to whether the Sanford PD's piss-poor handling of this case will negatively affect a potential wrongful-death lawsuit by the Martin family against Zimmerman.

240 Sol Berdinowitz  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 11:26:13am

re: #237 ggt

The GOP will probably suggest the resolution to this is to outlaw hoodies.

/;0

I'm outta here for a while, chores to do.

The other comments like "if he had only responded properly to Zimmerman's question" or "had he not been wearing a hoodie" were just dogwhistle variants of "if he had just known his place".

241 Kragar  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 11:26:20am

re: #237 ggt

The GOP will probably suggest the resolution to this is to outlaw hoodies.

/;0

I'm outta here for a while, chores to do.

But some of their biggest supporters wear hoods!

Oh, hoodies. Never mind.

242 sattv4u2  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 11:26:40am

re: #235 Daniel Ballard

I saw that and I think he missed it, he mentioned how it's not applicable as part of the Castle doctrine and that is right. But the text goes on the include "places you have a right to be" (quote may be paraphrased a bit).

thanks ,,,and sorry if that is part of your page ,,,, didn't mean to jump the gun (no pun intended) / spoil it for you

243 Four More Tears  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 11:27:08am

re: #239 Targetpractice

I'm curious as to whether the Sanford PD's piss-poor handling of this case will negatively affect a potential wrong-death lawsuit by the Martin family against Zimmerman.

I read somewhere that Stand Your Ground provides the killer with immunity from civil cases as well.

244 Political Atheist  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 11:28:14am

re: #206 Charles Johnson

Actually, Zimmerman was not even part of any official "Neighborhood Watch" group. He was a self-appointed busybody.

No legitimate Neighborhood Watch group goes around armed. They're supposed to watch and report, not take the place of the police and kill people.

That's a key point. Even where CCW is common, by nature a watch guy goes looking. I would say you must put the gun away before you go on watch.

CCW is for those who in ordinary life face those who are after them. Like merchants that make cash deposits or carry inventory like jewelry.

245 Targetpractice  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 11:28:27am

re: #243 Altar Boy of Darwinism

I read somewhere that Stand Your Ground provides the killer with immunity from civil cases as well.

So this fucking law has ensured that the Martin family will receive no justice whatsoever. Zimmerman will likely never see the inside of a courtroom, free to continue living out his Dirty Harry fantasies.

246 Lidane  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 11:29:56am

re: #219 ggt

I have a friend who is a 911 OFFICER. She is definitely a cop. Perhaps it is different in different states.

Florida is apparently a no-man's land where anyone can be a 911 dispatcher.

247 Sol Berdinowitz  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 11:30:26am

re: #239 Targetpractice

I'm curious as to whether the Sanford PD's piss-poor handling of this case will negatively affect a potential wrongful-death lawsuit by the Martin family against Zimmerman.

That and the law itself are the scandals here. Zimmermann, unfortunately, is not in violation of the letter of law. We can at best hope for a civil suit against him.

Ad we can only hope that the Sanford PD gets shaken up thoroughly and the law gets amended or repealed.

I doubt the latter , but this event might serve to prevent it from being adopted by other states.

248 Kragar  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 11:30:51am

re: #245 Targetpractice

So this fucking law has ensured that the Martin family will receive no justice whatsoever. Zimmerman will likely never see the inside of a courtroom, free to continue living out his Dirty Harry fantasies.

Until some one "Stand His Ground" against Zimmerman.

*Edit, I'm not saying it should happen, I'm saying the likelihood increases if he walks away.

249 sattv4u2  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 11:31:29am

re: #248 Kragar

uncalled for, imho

250 Lidane  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 11:31:38am

re: #222 sattv4u2

he gave up his right to make a self-defense claim the moment he got out of his truck

Not according to the Fla law. As long as he he was somewhere he has a legal right to be!

So Trayvon Martin didn't have the legal right to be walking home to his dad's house? Come on.

It's called Neighborhood Watch for a reason. You're not supposed to follow someone you think is suspicious. You're supposed to call the cops and let them handle it. If Zimmerman had done that, Martin would be alive.

251 Four More Tears  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 11:31:38am

re: #245 Targetpractice

So this fucking law has ensured that the Martin family will receive no justice whatsoever. Zimmerman will likely never see the inside of a courtroom, free to continue living out his Dirty Harry fantasies.

Crappiest silver lining ever... Zim will have to spend the rest of his life sleeping with one eye open. I honestly think that's all the "justice" Trayvon's going to get, unless some magical evidence comes out proving that this was premeditated, or the GZ initiated the physical confrontation.

252 Political Atheist  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 11:31:41am

re: #245 Targetpractice

That may not happen. He may not be protected by it in the end after proper examination by competent (not from Sanford) judges & a grand jury.

253 Sol Berdinowitz  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 11:31:50am

re: #248 Kragar

Until some one "Stand His Ground" against Zimmerman.

This is my most pessimistic worst case scenario: that someone might take Zmmermann out and turn him into some sort of martyr for gun rights.

254 sattv4u2  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 11:32:23am

re: #250 Lidane

So Trayvon Martin didn't have the legal right to be walking home to his dad's house?

Where did I say that????

255 Kragar  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 11:32:29am

re: #249 sattv4u2

uncalled for, imho

Not calling for it, just saying it becomes more likely.

256 Political Atheist  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 11:33:16am

Charles thanks for featuring this one. I appreciate it. Pages rock.

257 Four More Tears  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 11:33:22am

re: #250 Lidane

So Trayvon Martin didn't have the legal right to be walking home to his dad's house? Come on.

It's called Neighborhood Watch for a reason. You're not supposed to follow someone you think is suspicious. You're supposed to call the cops and let them handle it. If Zimmerman had done that, Martin would be alive.

Legally speaking, that is all moot.

258 Kragar  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 11:33:22am

re: #253 Second Amendment Renegation

This is my most pessimistic worst case scenario: that someone might take Zmmermann out and turn him into some sort of martyr for gun rights.

Yup, killing him would make the issue worse, not better.

259 sattv4u2  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 11:33:33am

re: #255 Kragar

Not calling for it, just saying it becomes more likely.

Sorry ,, it just looked bad

260 Lidane  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 11:34:10am

re: #254 sattv4u2

Saying that Zimmerman had a legal right to be where he was presumes that Trayvon Martin didn't have a legal right to be where he was.

If Zimmerman was suspicious, he should have called the cops and left it at that. That kid would still be alive right now.

261 Kragar  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 11:35:48am

re: #259 sattv4u2

Sorry ,, it just looked bad

No worries, editted for clarity

262 Targetpractice  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 11:36:06am

re: #260 Lidane

Saying that Zimmerman had a legal right to be where he was presumes that Trayvon Martin didn't have a legal right to be where he was.

If Zimmerman was suspicious, he should have called the cops and left it at that. That kid would still be alive right now.

Except that wouldn't have assuaged his need to be the "hero." He'd gotten one guy arrested already for burglary, so he wanted that rush again. But 46 calls and no hits? He was tired of calling the cops and getting nothing for his efforts. He wanted to be the guy who caught the bad guy in the act, then turned him over to the cops, as a way of saying "I just did your job for you."

263 Four More Tears  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 11:36:35am

re: #260 Lidane

Saying that Zimmerman had a legal right to be where he was presumes that Trayvon Martin didn't have a legal right to be where he was.

If Zimmerman was suspicious, he should have called the cops and left it at that. That kid would still be alive right now.

It doesn't presume that at all. GZ's case is that he was attacked by TM, felt that his life was threatened, and shot him. This needs to be proven false for things to start turning against him.

264 sattv4u2  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 11:36:53am

re: #260 Lidane

Saying that Zimmerman had a legal right to be where he was presumes that Trayvon Martin didn't have a legal right to be where he was

WTF!!
You were saying that as soon as GZ got out of his truck he gave up a right

I stated, according to the law, GZ HAD the right to be in his truck ,, on the street ,.,, on the sidewalk ,, in a parking lot ,,

It says nor presumes ANYTHING about Trayvon

265 sattv4u2  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 11:37:08am

re: #261 Kragar

No worries, editted for clarity

I take back the downer, then

266 Targetpractice  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 11:38:09am

re: #263 Altar Boy of Darwinism

It doesn't presume that at all. GZ's case is that he was attacked by TM, felt that his life was threatened, and shot him. This needs to be proven false for things to start turning against him.

Yep, whereas without this "Stand Your Ground" law, he'd actually have to prove that his "self-defense" was so. With this law in place, the cops are the ones who have to disprove "reasonably believe," which is pretty much insurmountable.

267 Political Atheist  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 11:38:17am

re: #260 Lidane

Saying that Zimmerman had a legal right to be where he was presumes that Trayvon Martin didn't have a legal right to be where he was..

No, they both had a right to be there in general. But I totally agree following was the critical error. He needed to stop right there.

268 Four More Tears  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 11:38:24am

I am on the same side of an issue as Satt.
I have a sad :(

269 sattv4u2  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 11:38:59am

re: #268 Altar Boy of Darwinism

I am on the same side of an issue as Satt.
I have a sad :(

hell,, how do you think I feel!!!!

//

270 Four More Tears  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 11:39:46am

re: #266 Targetpractice

Yep, whereas without this "Stand Your Ground" law, he'd actually have to prove that his "self-defense" was so. With this law in place, the cops are the ones who have to disprove "reasonably believe," which is pretty much insurmountable.

Exactly. This law is precisely what denies justice for the killing of Trayvon Martin. It's a fucking abomination.

271 Lidane  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 11:40:49am

re: #267 Daniel Ballard

No, they both had a right to be there in general. But I totally agree following was the critical error. He needed to stop right there.

That's why I'm saying that as soon as he got out of his truck, he gave up his right to use self-defense as an out. From that moment on, he was the aggressor in this situation. He escalated it, and now he's going to end up getting away with murder because of it.

272 Four More Tears  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 11:41:18am

P.S. Don't confuse my discussion of the legality of the issue for any kind of moral judgment.

kthxbai

273 Four More Tears  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 11:42:25am

re: #271 Lidane

That's why I'm saying that as soon as he got out of his truck, he gave up his right to use self-defense as an out. From that moment on, he was the aggressor in this situation. He escalated it, and now he's going to end up getting away with murder because of it.

But he did not give up that right as the laws are written.

274 Kragar  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 11:43:08am

re: #272 Altar Boy of Darwinism

P.S. Don't confuse my discussion of the legality of the issue for any kind of moral judgment.

kthxbai

Request denied, you SON OF A BITCH!
///

275 Targetpractice  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 11:43:59am

re: #272 Altar Boy of Darwinism

P.S. Don't confuse my discussion of the legality of the issue for any kind of moral judgment.

kthxbai

We're all obligated on occasion to wear the Devil's Advocate robes. Builds character.

276 Political Atheist  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 11:44:22am

re: #271 Lidane

That's why I'm saying that as soon as he got out of his truck, he gave up his right to use self-defense as an out. From that moment on, he was the aggressor in this situation. He escalated it, and now he's going to end up getting away with murder because of it.

Oh yes. A key fundamental about self defense is who went to who. Say at a restaurant. Some drunk argues with another drunk. But the one that gets up and goes to the other table is presumed responsible for violence. In general of course. The more clear that fact is the better to sort it out properly.

277 sattv4u2  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 11:44:32am

re: #271 Lidane

That's why I'm saying that as soon as he got out of his truck, he gave up his right to use self-defense as an out. From that moment on, he was the aggressor in this situation. He escalated it, and now he's going to end up getting away with murder because of it.

And again, according to the statute,, no, he didn't

According to the law as long as someone has the legal right to be somewhere (in this case on a public street as opposed to being on private property uninvited)

278 Four More Tears  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 11:44:36am

re: #274 Kragar

Request denied, you SON OF A BITCH!
///

Reread my sentence. Not a request. +1 internets for me. :P

279 Kragar  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 11:44:44am

re: #275 Targetpractice

We're all obligated on occasion to wear the Devil's Advocate robes. Builds character.

Oh, sure, take the devil's side. Sinner.

280 Lidane  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 11:45:12am

re: #273 Altar Boy of Darwinism

But he did not give up that right as the laws are written.

Which is bullshit. Trayvon Martin was walking home, minding his own business. How is Zimmerman getting out of his truck to chase him down NOT an escalation of something or an attack on Martin? The kid didn't do anything to engage Zimmerman in the first place except walk in his line of sight.

If anyone should be entitled to the protection of "standing his ground" in this case, it would have been Martin, but he's dead.

281 sattv4u2  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 11:45:21am

re: #275 Targetpractice

We're all obligated on occasion to wear the Devil's Advocate robes. Builds character.

and keeps costume rental companies in business after Halloween!

282 Targetpractice  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 11:45:42am

re: #279 Kragar

Oh, sure, take the devil's side. Sinner.

He's promised me a condo overlooking the Lake of Fire.

//

283 Four More Tears  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 11:46:14am

re: #279 Kragar

Oh, sure, take the devil's side. Sinner.

From the guy who makes offerings to Khorne on a daily basis...

284 Killgore Trout  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 11:47:11am

re: #248 Kragar

Until some one "Stand His Ground" against Zimmerman.

*Edit, I'm not saying it should happen, I'm saying the likelihood increases if he walks away.

Sadly true. I really don't want to speculate what might happen if he isn't tried and convicted. We don't know all the facts and lot of people are emotionally invested in him being guilty. It's not a good situation.

285 Henchman Ghazi-808  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 11:47:21am
Jim Hoft ‏ @gatewaypundit
Breaking: so far Zero rapes and murder at Rally to Repeal in DC but there's still time @mmfa @EricBoehlert
286 wrenchwench  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 11:47:32am

re: #282 Targetpractice

He's promised me a condo overlooking the Lake of Fire.

//

The a/c is broken....

287 Four More Tears  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 11:48:22am

re: #280 Lidane

Which is bullshit. Trayvon Martin was walking home, minding his own business. How is Zimmerman getting out of his truck to chase him down NOT an escalation of something or an attack on Martin? The kid didn't do anything to engage Zimmerman in the first place except walk in his line of sight.

If anyone should be entitled to the protection of "standing his ground" in this case, it would have been Martin, but he's dead.

IMHO, anger is best directed at this law. And maybe the Sanford PD, but that's another issue.

288 Kragar  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 11:48:24am

re: #283 Altar Boy of Darwinism

From the guy who makes offerings to Khorne on a daily basis...

Khorne has been fully accepted by the Christian Evangelical movement, so I'm not seeing the problem.

289 Targetpractice  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 11:49:03am

re: #288 Kragar

Khorne has been full accepted by the Christian Evangelical movement, so I'm not seeing the problem.

But why not Crom?!

/

290 Four More Tears  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 11:50:19am

re: #288 Kragar

Khorne has been full accepted by the Christian Evangelical movement, so I'm not seeing the problem.

Well, I don't recall Khorne ever castrating people, so he has that over the RCC at least...

291 sattv4u2  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 11:50:26am

re: #287 Altar Boy of Darwinism

IMHO, anger is best directed at this law. And maybe the Sanford PD, but that's another issue.

31 states have a similar law ,, and 5 more are considering it

292 Lidane  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 11:51:16am

re: #287 Altar Boy of Darwinism

IMHO, anger is best directed at this law. And maybe the Sanford PD, but that's another issue.

The Sanford PD owes several careers to the Martin family for their incompetence and total failure to do their goddamn jobs. They might even owe money, too. The law is bullshit and should be repealed or rewritten to prevent shit like this from happening again.

That still doesn't invalidate the fact that Zimmerman was out of line in chasing and attacking Martin for no reason, and that he's going to end up getting away with murder for it.

293 Four More Tears  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 11:51:49am

re: #291 sattv4u2

31 states have a similar law ,, and 5 more are considering it

Do you disagree then?

294 sattv4u2  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 11:52:09am

re: #292 Lidane

What "job" didn't the Sanford police do?

295 Kragar  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 11:52:42am

re: #289 Targetpractice

But why not Crom?!

/

Crom's sole gift to mankind was the courage to struggle against adversity, which goes against the Evangelical teaching of "God gave us everything."

296 Lidane  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 11:55:48am

re: #294 sattv4u2

What "job" didn't the Sanford police do?

Let's see. For starters:

1. They show up and there's a dead body on the ground. The other guy admits to firing his weapon. Why didn't they test Zimmerman for drugs or alcohol?

2. Trayvon Martin was listed as a John Doe for THREE DAYS. It wasn't until his parents filed a missing person's report that it even occurred to them that he might have belonged in the neighborhood he'd been walking in.

3. Leading the witnesses. Several people claim that the police officers were correcting their stories as they were giving their statements. How is that proper procedure?

4. Having a narcotics officer talk to Zimmerman first instead of a homicide investigator. WTF? Dead body on the ground, fired weapon = homicide investigation, and you need someone trained in that to find out what the hell is going on.

297 sattv4u2  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 11:56:09am

re: #293 Altar Boy of Darwinism

Do you disagree then?

I think the "castle' part(s) of the law are fine (not legally being mandated to flee if someone breaks into your home,,, not being prosecuted if you use force in that instance, even if the force is deadly)
Out on the street,.,,, as with this case,, it gets very fuzzy!

298 The Questionable Timing of a Flea  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 11:56:30am

Last Clause of the Florida SYG law:

776.041 Use of force by aggressor. —The justification described in the preceding sections of this chapter is not available to a person who:

(1) Is attempting to commit, committing, or escaping after the commission of, a forcible felony; or
(2) Initially provokes the use of force against himself or herself, unless:
(a) Such force is so great that the person reasonably believes that he or she is in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm and that he or she has exhausted every reasonable means to escape such danger other than the use of force which is likely to cause death or great bodily harm to the assailant; or
(b) In good faith, the person withdraws from physical contact with the assailant and indicates clearly to the assailant that he or she desires to withdraw and terminate the use of force, but the assailant continues or resumes the use of force.

Consider section 2, parts a and b.

If this gets to grand jury, the evidence and testimony isn't going to end at "who initiated the conflict." Zimmerman's representation can argue that his client that following and asking questions doesn't meet "provocation of use of force." He can also argue that Martin initiated physical conflict, and therefore SYG applies. Then he has the fallbacks suggested sections 2a and 2b: that Zimmerman felt himself under threat of great harm or attempted to withdraw before or during the scuffle.

It's not watertight--Zimmerman could still be brought up on charges after the findings of the grand jury--but it demonstrates how SYG creates a series of bulwarks in which the shooter gets to mitigate their action and lay blame elsewhere.

Public sentiment may eventually take Zimmerman to court, but that doesn't make these SYG laws any more troublesome. People have gotten away with shooting in even more dubious circumstances, as I've noted before. And they will again.

299 wrenchwench  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 11:57:17am

re: #291 sattv4u2

31 states have a similar law ,, and 5 more are considering it

Thanks to ALEC and the NRA.

A Florida law that may protect the man who shot and killed 17-year-old Trayvon Martin in February is the template for an American Legislative Exchange Council (ALEC) "model bill" that has been pushed in other states. The bill was brought to ALEC by the National Rifle Association (NRA), and fits into a pattern of ALEC bills that disproportionately impact communities of color.

[...]

300 sattv4u2  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 12:00:54pm

re: #296 Lidane

1) ,, same reason that during a traffic stop they don't test everyone for drugs/ alcohol. The cops on the scene most likely didn't see any evidence (slurred speech ,,,, incoherent ramblings ,,, red/ glassy eyes,,, smell of alcohol/ grass
2) did martin have an ID on him? If not, and if he wasn't 'in the system" how should the cops have listed him?
3) Leading the witnesses. Several people claim except for the people wjho called 911 saying they heard arguing then a shot fired, what "witnesses?"
4) I had not heard that but IF a nar was the 1st on the scene he/she would be the one that takes the 1st statement

301 Targetpractice  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 12:01:33pm

re: #296 Lidane

Let's see. For starters:

1. They show up and there's a dead body on the ground. The other guy admits to firing his weapon. Why didn't they test Zimmerman for drugs or alcohol?

2. Trayvon Martin was listed as a John Doe for THREE DAYS. It wasn't until his parents filed a missing person's report that it even occurred to them that he might have belonged in the neighborhood he'd been walking in.

3. Leading the witnesses. Several people claim that the police officers were correcting their stories as they were giving their statements. How is that proper procedure?

4. Having a narcotics officer talk to Zimmerman first instead of a homicide investigator. WTF? Dead body on the ground, fired weapon = homicide investigation, and you need someone trained in that to find out what the hell is going on.

5. Despite the officer on the scene writing down Zimmerman's injuries as corroborating his story, no examination was done at the hospital or pictures taken at the police station. Same goes for grass stains reported on his clothing, which were supposed to again corroborate his story that Zimmerman had been lying on his back as Martin straddled him during the fight.

6. Martin's cellphone, which would have kept a call log and potentially other evidence, such as digital photos of Zimmerman that would disprove his assertion of being the one attacked instead of the attacker, remains missing.

7. If any pictures or physical evidence exists of the crime scene that could corroborate Zimmerman's version of events, the Sanford PD has not been forthcoming with them.

302 Lidane  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 12:02:13pm

re: #300 sattv4u2

So you think that the Sanford PD did their job properly?

303 dragonath  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 12:02:30pm

It's hard to compare this to other states, because Florida is a place with a history of institutional racism, and the law is so broadly stated it means fuck-all. I hope no one confuses Jeb Bush as being some kind of moderate anymore.

I'm kind of amused how in this case, "law and order" conservatives are the most likely to advocate legalized murder.

304 sattv4u2  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 12:03:21pm

re: #302 Lidane

So you think that the Sanford PD did their job properly?

I have no idea,

but so far your 1-5 is a combo of speculation and hearsay

And again, please don't put words in my mouth

305 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 12:03:37pm

re: #300 sattv4u2

1) ,, same reason that during a traffic stop they don't test everyone for drugs/ alcohol. The cops on the scene most likely didn't see any evidence (slurred speech ,,, incoherent ramblings ,,, red/ glassy eyes,,, smell of alcohol/ grass

It's a killing scene forchrissakes. They don't have to "see", they should have done the test period.

306 Political Atheist  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 12:03:42pm

re: #301 Targetpractice

Any law depends on police acting properly. With an epic lack of due diligence anything can go wrong. That chief should resign I think.

307 bratwurst  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 12:04:35pm

re: #299 wrenchwench

Thanks to ALEC and the NRA.

And here I thought is was a big COINCIDENCE that large numbers of states seem to be passing similar laws right around the same time!

308 Lidane  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 12:04:48pm

re: #306 Daniel Ballard

Any law depends on police acting properly. With an epic lack of due diligence anything can go wrong. That chief should resign I think.

He should resign, as should every officer on that scene who didn't do their goddamn jobs. It's absurd that an unarmed kid can get shot in the street in cold blood, and his killer will end up getting off scot free.

309 Targetpractice  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 12:04:53pm

re: #306 Daniel Ballard

Any law depends on police acting properly. With an epic lack of due diligence anything can go wrong. That chief should resign I think.

Should resign or removed from office. There's no excuse for the piss-poor investigation in evidence.

310 The Questionable Timing of a Flea  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 12:05:56pm

re: #300 sattv4u2

1) ,, same reason that during a traffic stop they don't test everyone for drugs/ alcohol. The cops on the scene most likely didn't see any evidence (slurred speech ,,, incoherent ramblings ,,, red/ glassy eyes,,, smell of alcohol/ grass
2) did martin have an ID on him? If not, and if he wasn't 'in the system" how should the cops have listed him?
3) Leading the witnesses. Several people claim except for the people wjho called 911 saying they heard arguing then a shot fired, what "witnesses?"
4) I had not heard that but IF a nar was the 1st on the scene he/she would be the one that takes the 1st statement

1. Like the rambling he was doing on the phone with the 911 operator. Also, it's a shooting: you test regardless of impressions.

2. Since we don't know about ID, that's a non defense. He did, however, have a cellphone on him.

3. At least one person interviewed about hearing the shot and screaming was corrected during her interview about her testimony that she heard Zimmerman, not Martin, screaming for help.

4. Fair cop (no pun intended).

311 Lidane  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 12:06:15pm

re: #305 Liberal Entity

It's a killing scene forchrissakes. They don't have to "see", they should have done the test period.

EXACTLY. Dead body on the ground and a fired weapon should mean an automatic test for drugs and alcohol in the shooter as a matter of course. Some folks can be on drugs or alcohol and NOT be glassy-eyed or slurring their words.

312 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 12:08:49pm

re: #300 sattv4u2

3) Leading the witnesses. Several people claim except for the people wjho called 911 saying they heard arguing then a shot fired, what "witnesses?"

You really haven't been paying attention then, since it's been everywhere.

[Link: abcnews.go.com...]

Another officer corrected a witness after she told him that she heard the teen cry for help.

The officer told the witness, a long-time teacher, it was Zimmerman who cried for help, said the witness. ABC News has spoken to the teacher and she confirmed that the officer corrected her when she said she heard the teenager shout for help.

313 sattv4u2  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 12:09:53pm

re: #312 Liberal Entity

thanks.. I didn't see/ hear that

THAT officer should be taken to task then!

314 blueraven  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 12:10:46pm

re: #304 sattv4u2

I have no idea,

but so far your 1-5 is a combo of speculation and hearsay

And again, please don't put words in my mouth

Comparing this to a traffic stop is ridiculous.

He should have been arrested that night. Then evidence collected, documented. He should have been tested. If there was no evidence of a crime, then it would not have made it through a grand jury.

The cops had Trayvons cell phone..please!

315 sattv4u2  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 12:14:51pm

re: #314 blueraven

He should have been arrested that night.

For what?

Sorry, but we all agree the law SUCKS,, but under the law with what we currently know he didn't BREAK the law

316 Political Atheist  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 12:15:02pm

re: #287 Altar Boy of Darwinism

IMHO, anger is best directed at this law. And maybe the Sanford PD, but that's another issue.

So if we do away with this law, have we considered how high we want the burden of proof to be if we have to defend ourselves some day? Women need to able to use extreme force to stop a rapist, a classic he said she said unless you have witnesses. Or a merchant on the way to the bank with his deposit who is assaulted for the money?

A media hot case like this can swing the pendulum too far.

317 blueraven  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 12:18:20pm

re: #315 sattv4u2

He should have been arrested that night.

For what?

Sorry, but we all agree the law SUCKS,, but under the law with what we currently know he didn't BREAK the law

The same reason any killing is investigated and shooter is arrested. The claim of self defense is for the legal system to determine. It is a process. The cops are not the judge and jury.

Even a policeman who shoots someone is put on desk duty while being investigated.

318 Lidane  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 12:18:41pm

re: #315 sattv4u2

For what?

So we should never, ever arrest anyone who fires their weapon at another person who winds up dead?

He fired his gun and there was a dead body on the ground. Why didn't they take him into custody? Why not test him for drugs or alcohol? Why not examine him medically to make sure that his story held up? Why did they just take his words at face value and let him go?

319 Four More Tears  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 12:19:07pm

re: #316 Daniel Ballard

So if we do away with this law, have we considered how high we want the burden of proof to be if we have to defend ourselves some day? Women need to able to use extreme force to stop a rapist, a classic he said she said unless you have witnesses. Or a merchant on the way to the bank with his deposit who is assaulted for the money?

Were we overwhelmed with innocent people going to jail for defending themselves with lethal force before these laws were passed?

I do believe there needs to be a really high bar for taking another life. The one exception I won't fight against is inside one's own home.

320 Lidane  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 12:20:36pm

re: #319 Altar Boy of Darwinism

I do believe there needs to be a really high bar for taking another life. The one exception I won't fight against is inside one's own home.

Exactly.

Someone breaks into your house, you have every right to defend yourself, including lethal force. Beyond that, the bar should be really fucking high when it comes to justifiable homicide.

321 sattv4u2  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 12:21:26pm

re: #318 Lidane

So we should never, ever arrest anyone who fires their weapon at another person who winds up dead

yup,, thats what I said

(except for the part where I didn't)

thats now the 3rd time today you've attributed to me something I never said

Cya

322 Political Atheist  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 12:21:34pm

re: #318 Lidane

If I ever shoot or kill someone even in self defense outside my home or office, I expect I'll get arrested at least for gathering evidence from my clothes etc. After all my study and trying to develop the sense to not use too much force, I still expect that even if I did it all correctly.

323 Targetpractice  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 12:22:14pm

re: #316 Daniel Ballard

So if we do away with this law, have we considered how high we want the burden of proof to be if we have to defend ourselves some day? Women need to able to use extreme force to stop a rapist, a classic he said she said unless you have witnesses. Or a merchant on the way to the bank with his deposit who is assaulted for the money?

A media hot case like this can swing the pendulum too far.

This "media hot case" has done plenty in the last week alone to drag to the surface to plethora of similar cases that have seen similar circumstances: Shooter provoked victim, killed victim, and then declared "self-defense." This law is dire need of revision, if not repeal. Self-defense should not be used as a "Get Out of Jail Free" card, it should be tested like any other defense in a court of law.

324 Political Atheist  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 12:23:31pm

re: #315 sattv4u2

He should have been arrested that night.

For what?

Sorry, but we all agree the law SUCKS,, but under the law with what we currently know he didn't BREAK the law

To gather the physical evidence from him. At least. Interviews by competent police.

325 Varek Raith  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 12:24:55pm

re: #315 sattv4u2

He should have been arrested that night.

For what?

Sorry, but we all agree the law SUCKS,, but under the law with what we currently know he didn't BREAK the law

And the GOP and NRA will do their damnedest to make sure said sucky law is not changed/fixed.

326 Targetpractice  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 12:25:54pm

re: #324 Daniel Ballard

To gather the physical evidence from him. At least. Interviews by competent police.

At least one more interview after the narcotics investigator ran him through the wringer, to see if he was sticking to his story or if he was already revising it. Get it from him in his own words, preferably on tape, rather than through a cop's report.

327 Political Atheist  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 12:42:49pm

re: #138 Charles Johnson

I have to differ, though - I don't think "Stand Your Ground" laws are flawed. I think they're insane.

I think these laws are what happens when right wing fantasies of violence drive public policy.

"Justifiable homicides" have more than tripled in Florida since this law was passed. It's a license to kill.

I'm not so sure. I wish we could compare how the Los Angeles DA and LAPD would have handled an identical situation with that law on the books. I really think we would have had a very different result. Racism may have made all the difference.


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Randall Gross
Rodrigo Y Gabriela - Eclectic - Live - Montreux Jazz Festival - 8 July 2014
Rodrigo y Gabriela - Eclectic - Live - Montreux Jazz Festival, Switzerland - 8 July 2014

5 hours, 18 minutes ago
Views: 76 • Comments: 2
Tweets: 0 • Rating: 2
The War TARDIS
Doctor Who “Into the Dalek” Open Thread
This episode will echo old Dalek episodes, both with a bit of a twist. Also, Clara will be finding someone, as she seems to be moving from her feelings of the 11th. But, this for talking.

1 day, 13 hours ago
Views: 226 • Comments: 37
Tweets: 0 • Rating: 4
FemNaziBitch
Roger Goodell: ‘I Didn’t Get It Right.’ -NFL TAKES A NEW STANCE DOMESTIC VIOLENCE
NFL commissioner Roger Goodell admits he was wrong on the Ray Rice decision, and Goodell took an important step Thursday towards showing the league is serious about cracking down on domestic violence as well as sexual assault. In a ...

2 days, 19 hours ago
Views: 211 • Comments: 1
Tweets: 0 • Rating: 3
sagehen
Doctor Who Spoiler Thread
For those who want to post immediately... live... without having to hide spoilers behind the button.

1 week, 1 day ago
Views: 682 • Comments: 99
Tweets: 0 • Rating: 6
EiMitch
Escapist: Maniac Cop
escapistmagazine.com Link broken? The gist is that this is an impressively sarcastic review of an old slasher flick based on the "unrealistic" premise of a cop abusing his power to murder people.

1 week, 2 days ago
Views: 497 • Comments: 1
Tweets: 0 • Rating: 1
Hyped Up On Ganja
Hunt for German neo-Nazis was ‘complete disaster’
BERLIN (AP) -- Police and security services in Germany's eastern state of Thuringia bungled the hunt for three neo-Nazis, who years later turned out to be the main suspects in a far-right murder spree. Story

1 week, 3 days ago
Views: 714 • Comments: 2
Tweets: 0 • Rating: 4
Rightwingconspirator
A Lizard’s Regenerating Tail
Don't ya hate it when that happens? You feel so short for a month. Anoles are curious little lizards capable of ditching their tails when they feel threatened. This self-amputation, called autotomy, takes about 25 days for the tail to ...

1 week, 3 days ago
Views: 510 • Comments: 1
Tweets: 0 • Rating: 5
CriticalDragon1177
Io9 - Everything You Need To Know About Lemuria, The Lost Continent Of Lemurs
Esther Inglis-Arkell talks about the weirdest lost continent myth, I've ever heard. Its the only one I know of that ever included giant telepathic lemurs. No seriously! In 1858 a young zoologist, playing around with an idea, came up with ...

1 week, 3 days ago
Views: 691 • Comments: 4
Tweets: 0 • Rating: 7
Laughing Gas
Scumbag “HBD believer” claims Michael Brown charged officer
WARNING: LINK TO HATE SITE He links to some ijreview, a right wing site: This guy makes me sick.

1 week, 6 days ago
Views: 1,570 • Comments: 6
Tweets: 1 • Rating: 1
 Frank says:

I think you should leave it up to the parent, because not all parents want to keep their children totally ignorant. -- Frank Zappa in response to a question from Senator Hollings.