Dan Riehl and Stormfront in Perfect Sync

They all look alike to Dan
Wingnuts • Views: 41,785

DERPbreitbart.com blogger Dan Riehl seems to be having uncontrollable hate spasms today, tossing off racist posts one after another. Now he’s trumpeting a photo he found at Facebook (hat tip: “a reader”) under the name “Trayvon Martin,” seemingly unable or unwilling to realize that it’s not the same person as the 17-year old murdered in Florida: Riehl World View: Update: Is This the Same Trayvon Martin?

I came across this Facebook account in the name of Trayvon Martin. I do not know if it is the same Martin who was recently killed in Florida. The banner photo matches, which proves nothing fwiw.

This is one of the few images still posted at that account.

Update: It doesn’t appear to be the same Trayvon Martin. But I’m still not sure. It’s still linked. h/t a reader.

Also, people are whacked. We asked questions all the time when I covered crime out here. People need to get over it. I’ve seen several pics alleged to be Trayvon Martin circulating that didn’t look worth asking about. Community sourcing works. It’s what blogs did well back when they started. If I had something earth shattering, I’d look to publish it via a Breitbart site, if it were solid.

Here’s the photo to which he’s linking, and this kid is very obviously not the same Trayvon. But I guess if you’re a racist wingnut, they all look alike.

Interestingly enough, Riehl wasn’t the first to discover this Facebook page. That honor goes to the neo-Nazis and white supremacists at Stormfront. (The link is to a Google search page. h/t: Gus.)

Dan Riehl and Stormfront, in perfect sync.

UPDATE at 3/24/12 8:16:42 pm

Riehl responds to this post, and I hope someone can translate it because he’s now totally incoherent:

Jump to bottom

828 comments
1 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 6:20:43pm

The Martin family is showing remarkable civility in the face of this shit.

They would have to lock me up.

2 dragonfire1981  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 6:21:44pm

It’s what blogs did well back when they started. If I had something earth shattering, I’d look to publish it via a Breitbart site, if it were solid.

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha, best damned bit of comedy I've read all day!

3 allegro  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 6:23:36pm

Didn't I read just real recent like that the dead deserved respect? Didn't I?

4 darthstar  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 6:25:21pm

OhNOEZ!! A MIDDLE FINGER! You don't see septuagenarian white bass players and their hot young wives giving the middle finger for the camera...wait...what?

5 jaunte  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 6:27:20pm

re: #4 darthstar

It's obviously a thug or gang sign...
Image: gopfinger.jpg

6 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 6:28:08pm

George Orwell again.

Humans just can't learn can they?

7 Obdicut  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 6:28:15pm

Image: million-hoody-march-trayvon-martin.jpg

Okay, the one Riehl is referencing is a blurry picture, but they look nothing alike.

Aside from one factor, of course.

8 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 6:28:37pm

I'm going to get offline and read a book.

Have a great evening all!

9 PhillyPretzel  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 6:32:08pm

re: #8 ggt

I think I will head off to the Star Empire of Manticore and relax with Her Grace and chill at Jason Bay.

10 Obdicut  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 6:32:30pm

From my friend Andrew:

I wish I could just hug Trayvon Martin and mentor him and protect him. But don't worry, I will for those like him.

Andrew is a cool dude who looks good in pink, and, when not studying his ass off, mentors kids in a big brother/big sister program.

Image: 307259_997553368117_22605486_42719799_442155_n.jpg

He also said, when I asked him his feelings on this:

"I'm sad but not surprised."

11 darthstar  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 6:43:02pm

I feel sad about Trayvon...he was a good looking kid. So here's my armchair psychologist/anecdotal description of what happened, based on personal experience...

When I was in college, I worked in the office at the apartment complex where I lived. That gave me the keys to the building so I could go play pool with friends at any time of night on weekends. Often I played with our "security guard" - a twenty something guy who couldn't make the military, didn't have the education to be a cop, and walked around with a flashlight and (because we were pre-cell phones) a whistle. His orders were to chase off any kids doing kid stuff, and go back to the office and dial 911 if he saw anything really illegal. Well, one night I got home from the bars pretty drunk and stoned (as I did in my early twenties) and I saw my security guard friend walking around...so I hid in the bushes to surprise him on his rounds. Well, when I jumped out of the bushes and said "Boo!" the fucker turned around and drew down on me with a fully choked 12 guage shotgun. I said, "What the fuck are you doing with that?" and he said he wanted to scare off some kids. I said, "With a fucking gun? You could have killed me!" He swore it wasn't loaded, but I reported him the next day all the same - friend or not. He didn't get fired, if you can believe it.

Anyway, that's what I think happened with Trayvon...Rent-a-cop and serial 911 dialer Zimmerman grabbed his side arm and stalked the poor kid, and of course, while his fantasy game was playing out in his head, wanted to be prepared, so he chambered a round. Then the first shot was probably an accident...but the "stand your ground" defense is bullshit.

12 The Ghost of a Flea  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 6:52:58pm

re: #11 darthstar

The dude had a power and/or control fantasy regarding keeping his neighborhood safe.

I'll wager there was no detail or nuance to it. No real thought about what happens when you shoot a person, the vivid sensory detail or actually doing it...or, for that matter, thought about what it means to carry a concealed weapon. He was playacting a man ready to kill.

I hope he's aware now. I'll settle for him being punished, but really I'd like for him to realize that someone died because he was engaging in folly.

13 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 6:55:04pm

Whoever the young man in the photo is, his parents should know to make him take down the photo.

It could cost him a job later on. Kids need to know not to post stupid pictures on facebook.

14 darthstar  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 6:56:15pm

re: #12 The Ghost of a Flea

The dude had a power and/or control fantasy regarding keeping his neighborhood safe.

That should be obvious to just about anyone.

15 Charles Johnson  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 6:56:19pm

re: #13 Mostly sane, most of the time.

Whoever the young man in the photo is, his parents should know to make him take down the photo.

It could cost him a job later on. Kids need to know not to post stupid pictures on facebook.

Because someone like Dan Riehl might find it.

16 erik_t  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 6:57:24pm

Obviously, if a black boy is flipping off a camera, this materially changes a situation in which suspected-aforementioned boy was shot dead by the Neighborhood Posse without police investigation.

17 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 6:59:26pm

re: #15 Charles Johnson

Because someone like Dan Riehl might find it.

Or a prospective interviewer that just hired you.

Or the father of the young woman you would like to ask out.

Or your grandmother, who will not be amused.

18 Gus  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 7:00:23pm

Thanks for the hat tip Charles.

Jawa Report apparently took down the altered image using this excuse.

[Edit: A commenter alerted me that the image I had included may not have been Trayvon Martin. I acquired it from another blog, and it appears they have since removed the picture as well. I could not confirm the image from another source, so I opted to remove it. My sincere apologies if this caused any confusion. To replace the image, I am embedding a news report about a witness to the confrontation.]

Notice how he says he couldn't "confirm" which is odd because this obviously not the said Trayvon Martin.

Original screenshot of Jawa page is visible here.

Now, the reason I said altered is because someone added some "race baiting" text to the image. It does not appear even in the original Facebook page.

That image is visible here.

Make note of the added text which is not visible anywhere except for the original one posted at "Backwoods Home Magazine" which Jawa Report used as shown in my included screenshot.

A thumbnail of that page can be seen here.

As you can see that text was added at that point. He has since also taken down that image.

A lot of dirty tricks going on here.

19 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 7:00:30pm

Go go Republican Internet Lynch Mob

20 blueraven  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 7:00:46pm

So...what if this was a picture of Trayvon Martin? WTH difference would it make? He still looks like a kid just being a kid, not some huge, menacing, fully grown, scary ass criminal.

How stupid can they get and how low will they go?

21 What, me worry?  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 7:01:46pm

The racists are all over this one, too. It's an image grab and can only seem to be found on racist sites.

[Link: www.google.com...]

22 The Ghost of a Flea  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 7:02:17pm

re: #16 erik_t

Obviously, if a black boy is flipping off a camera, this materially changes a situation in which suspected-aforementioned boy was shot dead by the Neighborhood Posse without police investigation.

That broke my wall-mounted sarcasm meter.

23 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 7:02:39pm

re: #20 blueraven

So...what if this was a picture of Trayvon Martin? WTH difference would it make? He still looks like a kid just being a kid, not some huge, menacing, fully grown, scary ass criminal.

How stupid can they get and how low will they go?

I imagine they want to go as low as they used to go before all that pesky civil rights legislation

24 What, me worry?  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 7:02:47pm

re: #18 Gus

That "backwoods" freak has a few on his site.

25 erik_t  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 7:02:48pm

re: #22 The Ghost of a Flea

That broke my wall-mounted sarcasm meter.

Oh. A sarcasm meter. That's a real useful invention.

26 Gus  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 7:03:19pm

PS Took me about 20 minutes to compose #18 including some cropping work.

27 Kragar  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 7:04:00pm

Who ever heard of a teenage boy posing for a picture which makes him look like an idiot? Such an event has never happened in all of human history. Surely it warrants punishment most dire.

28 The Ghost of a Flea  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 7:05:29pm

re: #25 erik_t

Oh. A sarcasm meter. That's a real useful invention.

If you've ever met my family, you'd understand the need. American penchant for sarcasm + British understatement = powder keg of misunderstanding.

29 Gus  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 7:05:34pm

re: #24 Madge

That "backwoods" freak has a few on his site.

Yeah. Another strange site. It's like a pandemic of right wing crazies out there. Never thought I'd see so many in my lifetime.

30 Charles Johnson  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 7:07:11pm

re: #18 Gus

Thanks for the hat tip Charles.

Jawa Report apparently took down the altered image using this excuse.

Notice how he says he couldn't "confirm" which is odd because this obviously not the said Trayvon Martin.

Original screenshot of Jawa page is visible here.

Now, the reason I said altered is because someone added some "race baiting" text to the image. It does not appear even in the original Facebook page.

That image is visible here.

Make note of the added text which is not visible anywhere except for the original one posted at "Backwoods Home Magazine" which Jawa Report used as shown in my included screenshot.

A thumbnail of that page can be seen here.

As you can see that text was added at that point. He has since also taken down that image.

A lot of dirty tricks going on here.

Good lord. He's admitting he got the image from a crazy racist blog.

What the hell is wrong with the right wing blogosphere?

31 The Ghost of a Flea  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 7:07:35pm

re: #27 Kragar

Who ever heard of a teenage boy posing for a picture which makes him look like an idiot? Such an event has never happened in all of human history. Surely it warrants punishment most dire.

That's normal. The damning evidence is that it's a teenager posturing as though they're tough. That can only mean "future serial killer." And there's zero chance that he was goofing around rather than deadly serious.

32 Gus  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 7:08:04pm

re: #30 Charles Johnson

Good lord. He's admitting he got the image from a crazy racist blog.

What the hell is wrong with the right wing blogosphere?

I don't know. It's like a pandemic of crazy out there.

Feel free to use any of that to add to this post. :)

33 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 7:08:10pm

re: #29 Gus

Yeah. Another strange site. It's like a pandemic of right wing crazies out there. Never thought I'd see so many in my lifetime.

They've always been out there!

it's just now they've finally figured out how to use a computer

34 Kragar  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 7:09:21pm

re: #30 Charles Johnson

Good lord. He's admitting he got the image from a crazy racist blog.

What the hell is wrong with the right wing blogosphere?

The ends justify the derp.

35 MittDoesNotCompute  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 7:09:27pm

re: #20 blueraven

So...what if this was a picture of Trayvon Martin? WTH difference would it make? He still looks like a kid just being a kid, not some huge, menacing, fully grown, scary ass criminal.

How stupid can they get and how low will they go?

We know exactly why the RWNJs are looking for any and all pics of Trayvon Martin they can find; it's to dehumanize him and discredit any notion that he was (overall) a good kid, so they can crow that he was a "thug" who had it coming to him.

It's fucking disgusting; his family has to be frustrated and pissed off over all of this.

36 Killgore Trout  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 7:09:29pm
Youtube Video

Now it's raining and it's pouring
On the pillaging and goring
The constable is swinging
>From the chains
For the dead there is no story
No memory no blame
Their families shout blue murder
But tomorrow it's the same
In the colosseum

37 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 7:09:47pm

"The Jawa Report" is the most embarrassing mama's-basement-boys-Aint-It-Cool-News name for a blog I have ever heard

38 Obdicut  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 7:09:55pm

re: #31 The Ghost of a Flea

That's normal. The damning evidence is that it's a teenager posturing as though they're tough. That can only mean "future serial killer." And there's zero chance that he was goofing around rather than deadly serious.

Are you telling me the things that rappers claim to have done may not actually have occurred? My world is shattering.

Is this true for other musical genres too? Did Bob Marley not actually shoot a sheriff?

39 Dancing along the light of day  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 7:10:49pm

And, Ed Dantes has a SWEEP of the bottom 10 comments!
Congratulations, Ed.

40 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 7:11:21pm

re: #38 Obdicut

Are you telling me the things that rappers claim to have done may not actually have occurred? My world is shattering.

Is this true for other musical genres too? Did Bob Marley not actually shoot a sheriff?

next you'll tell me that Eric Bloom of Blue Oyster Cult didn't actually own a magical sentient black runesword that enslaves its owner

41 MittDoesNotCompute  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 7:11:28pm

re: #39 Floral Giraffe

And, Ed Dantes has a SWEEP of the bottom 10 comments!
Congratulations, Ed.

If you're gonna go DERP, go all out.

42 The Ghost of a Flea  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 7:14:15pm

re: #40 windupbird is in the gravity well

next you'll tell me that Eric Bloom of Blue Oyster Cult didn't actually own a magical sentient black runesword that enslaves its owner

And Kelis's milkshakes bring noone, anywhere.

43 Kragar  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 7:14:51pm

re: #40 windupbird is in the gravity well

next you'll tell me that Eric Bloom of Blue Oyster Cult didn't actually own a magical sentient black runesword that enslaves its owner

I've heard rumors that James Young of Styx was not in fact a renegade who had it made, nor was he retrieved for a bounty.

44 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 7:14:57pm

I'm pretty sure Cypress Hill smokes weed though


That element of their worldbuilding appears to be based in fact

45 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 7:16:04pm

re: #43 Kragar

I've heard rumors that James Young of Styx was not in fact a renegade who had it made, nor was he retrieved for a bounty.

So...did Katy Perry actually just join the Marines, or is it a video?

46 Gus  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 7:16:14pm

re: #44 windupbird is in the gravity well

I'm pretty sure Cypress Hill smokes weed though

That element of their worldbuilding appears to be based in fact

...

Smoking weed iz like teh ponytails and jazz music!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! #IAMABRIETBART #WAR #DERP

47 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 7:16:20pm

re: #43 Kragar

I've heard rumors that James Young of Styx was not in fact a renegade who had it made, nor was he retrieved for a bounty.

Dennis DeYoung's brain was fact NOT IBM

48 The Ghost of a Flea  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 7:17:12pm

re: #43 Kragar

I've heard rumors that James Young of Styx was not in fact a renegade who had it made, nor was he retrieved for a bounty.

Jon Bon Jovi: Living on food, earnings, not prayers.

49 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 7:18:09pm

Was Rob Halford in fact the Ripper? Nocturnal and Nameless? One has their doubts!

50 MittDoesNotCompute  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 7:18:16pm

re: #42 The Ghost of a Flea

And Fergie's milkshakes bring noone, anywhere.

"Milkshake" was Kelis, not Fergie, BTW.

Youtube Video
51 What, me worry?  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 7:18:33pm

re: #48 The Ghost of a Flea

Jon Bon Jovi: Living on food, earnings, not prayers.

Meatloaf did not ride his motorcycle out of hell. He may have found paradise by the dashboard light, however.

52 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 7:18:38pm

re: #48 The Ghost of a Flea

Jon Bon Jovi: Living on food, earnings, not prayers.

(alsoalotofhishitswerewrittenbyDesmondChild)

53 Obdicut  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 7:18:41pm

The sad part really is that if he had boosted a couple of cars or gotten into a bunch of fights, people really would see it as some sort of justification. Goddamn crazy. Nobody disputes that he was just going to the store and coming home. Anything else in his life is completely fucking irrelevant.

54 MittDoesNotCompute  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 7:18:56pm

re: #44 windupbird is in the gravity well

I'm pretty sure Cypress Hill smokes weed though

That element of their worldbuilding appears to be based in fact

As well as for Snoop Dogg...

55 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 7:19:02pm

re: #50 talon_262

"Milkshake" was Kelis, not Fergie, BTW.

[Embedded content]

the klingon Jesus figure?

56 Kragar  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 7:19:43pm

Wait, that might mean Steve Miller might not actually be the Pompatus of Love...

MY WORLD VIEW HAS BEEN RENT ASUNDER! MY LIFE IS A LIE!

57 The Ghost of a Flea  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 7:19:50pm

re: #50 talon_262

"Milkshake" was Kelis, not Fergie, BTW.

[Embedded content]

Corrected.

58 The Ghost of a Flea  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 7:20:52pm

re: #51 Madge

Meatloaf did not ride his motorcycle out of hell. He may have found paradise by the dashboard light, however.

Actually, he found purgatory by the turn signal.

59 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 7:21:37pm

re: #54 talon_262

As well as for Snoop Dogg...

though his money was not in fact resting on top of his unprotected brain, that would be unsanitary

60 MittDoesNotCompute  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 7:22:48pm

re: #55 windupbird is in the gravity well

the klingon Jesus figure?

That would be Kahless...

61 Kragar  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 7:23:28pm

re: #60 talon_262

That would be Kahless...

Nerd...

62 MittDoesNotCompute  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 7:25:03pm

re: #61 Kragar

Nerd...

Lemme help you with that:

Youtube Video

You're welcome.

///

63 The Ghost of a Flea  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 7:26:39pm

re: #62 talon_262

Lemme help you with that:

[Embedded content]You're welcome.

///

Internet is nerd territory. Diss us and we mess up your font kerning.

64 Obdicut  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 7:27:21pm

Fucking hell.

[Link: www.sfgate.com...]

Police spent all day Friday picking through a modest San Francisco home where five people were found slain, but the crime scene was so tangled that as darkness fell inspectors were unable to determine whether it was a murder-suicide - or even the causes of the deaths.

What was known was that the bodies of three women and two men were scattered throughout a bloodied row house at 16 Howth St. near City College, but the carnage was so severe that it wasn't clear whether they had been shot, stabbed or killed another way, investigators said.

Early in the day, police said they did not think any suspect was at large, but by evening they weren't so sure. They did, however, believe that whatever happened was specifically intended for that address.

"We can say that no suspect has been determined," said police Cmdr. Lyn Tomioka.

She said investigators hadn't yet ascertained how the victims died, why they died, or if the killer or killers was among them. At least two of the victims were initially assessed to have been possibly shot, but Tomioka said that further investigation is needed to determine what weapons were used.

...

The names of the deceased were not immediately released. But software engineer Yingxue "Jess" Lei owns the house where the killings happened, public records show, and her friends and co-workers said Friday that they fear she is among the dead.

I know Jess, very vaguely.

She and her coworkers went to the same food trucks as we did at Leapfrog some of the time.

I really hope the SF cops do their damn jobs this time.

65 Gus  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 7:28:26pm
66 What, me worry?  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 7:31:04pm

Lots of clever people on the Twitter.

67 Targetpractice  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 7:33:30pm

re: #63 The Ghost of a Flea

Internet is nerd territory. Diss us and we mess up your font kerning.

Indeed, on the Intertoobs, we run in packs.

68 Obdicut  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 7:34:09pm

re: #64 Obdicut

Early in the day, police said they did not think any suspect was at large, but by evening they weren't so sure.

So reassuring, thanks SFPD.

'Well, if he kills another five people, we'll know we were wrong.'

69 JamesWI  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 7:34:39pm

Well, Stormfront and Diehl wouldn't be doing this if Obama didn't bring race into it. So it's all his fault.

///EdDantes'd

70 Killgore Trout  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 7:34:45pm

Bill Maher, Robert DeNiro and the Outrage Wars

An underlying problem here: there are no shared standards anymore. Outrage is no longer a moral or ethical or personal sensibility thing, it is a political thing, a weapon to be used against your enemies, and a public sign of your political and ideological allegiances. And if everything is offensive, then, well, nothing is.

71 Kragar  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 7:35:36pm

re: #68 Obdicut

So reassuring, thanks SFPD.

'Well, if he kills another five people, we'll know we were wrong.'

Maybe he was jumped by all five and was defending himself. Oh wait, the cops in SF actually take their jobs seriously.

72 RadicalModerate  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 7:38:15pm

re: #69 JamesWI

Well, Stormfront and Diehl wouldn't be doing this if Obama didn't bring race into it. So it's all his fault.

///EdDantes'd

For Diehl and his compatriots, the rallying cry is no longer "9/11".
It's now "14/88".

73 Achilles Tang  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 7:40:04pm

re: #13 Mostly sane, most of the time.

Whoever the young man in the photo is, his parents should know to make him take down the photo.

It could cost him a job later on. Kids need to know not to post stupid pictures on facebook.

The undies showing don't mean anything to you? Chances are he learned the style from his parent(s), or mother. The picture is the least of his problems.

74 Charles Johnson  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 7:40:33pm

re: #70 Killgore Trout

I don't agree with this equivalence meme. What's really happening is that right wing ideologues are doing everything possible to keep the public from realizing what's going on among their base, by screaming bloody murder about people like Bill Maher and Robert DeNiro, who don't have 1/1,000,000th of the influence of a Rush Limbaugh or a Fox News.

75 Obdicut  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 7:40:42pm

re: #71 Kragar

Maybe he was jumped by all five and was defending himself. Oh wait, the cops in SF actually take their jobs seriously.

No, actually, they don't, is the problem.

[Link: www.sfweekly.com...]

That was my co-worker, who was stabbed multiple times and died in his apartment. There was no knife with blood found on it in the apartment. There was blood outside his apartment. Neighbors reported hearing his door slamming and running footsteps.

So of course the cops' questions for those of us they bothered to talk to were about whether he was very depressed and whether he'd ever talked about suicide. Nothing at all about anything else.

76 Kragar  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 7:41:41pm

re: #75 Obdicut

Well, fuck.

77 Interesting Times  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 7:42:36pm

re: #74 Charles Johnson

I don't agree with this equivalence meme.

It's the same old "both sides" blather. I can spot it from a mile away. And to anyone who'd use that idiotic argument, I say:

When one person is lying, and the other tells the truth, there is no middle ground.

78 Obdicut  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 7:42:48pm

re: #76 Kragar

Well, fuck.

Yep.

79 The Ghost of a Flea  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 7:43:03pm

re: #70 Killgore Trout

Quote from John McQuaid:

An underlying problem here: there are no shared standards anymore. Outrage is no longer a moral or ethical or personal sensibility thing, it is a political thing, a weapon to be used against your enemies, and a public sign of your political and ideological allegiances. And if everything is offensive, then, well, nothing is.

Anymore? No. The shared standard used to be, what offends the hegemonic majority is outrageous, fuck the outliers if they can't take a joke.

Also, the article is ducking that some people apply their outrage evenly--like say, calling out sexists regardless of their political stripe--and some use it in an exclusively partisan fashion that suggests that there is no core ethics or emotion that prompts them.

80 Killgore Trout  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 7:45:09pm

re: #74 Charles Johnson

I don't agree with this equivalence meme. What's really happening is that right wing ideologues are doing everything possible to keep the public from realizing what's going on among their base, by screaming bloody murder about people like Bill Maher and Robert DeNiro, who don't have 1/1,000,000th of the influence of a Rush Limbaugh or a Fox News.

It's all selective outrage and nonsense. I know the partisan activists can somehow always manage to justify their outrage and dismiss the opposing outrage but it's still bullshit.

81 Gus  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 7:45:52pm

Dan Riehl's freaking out:

82 Obdicut  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 7:47:14pm

re: #80 Killgore Trout

It's all selective outrage and nonsense. I know the partisan activists can somehow always manage to justify their outrage and dismiss the opposing outrage but it's still bullshit.

All of it? Everyone who is outraged that Limbaugh lied about Fluke's testimony while calling her a prostitute, that's all totally selective and it's nonsense to be outraged that he's spreading disinformation and lies?

What a load.

Rush's disinformation causes actual problems. Human beings influence each other. It's what they do. Being outraged that someone is influencing people to be assholes, to believe in lies, to treat others poorly, is not 'nonsense'.

You need to ignore all of human history to believe it is.

83 Kragar  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 7:47:33pm

re: #81 Gus

Dan Riehl's freaking out:

Somebody put a belt in his mouth or he'll swallow his tongue!

84 EdDantes  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 7:47:36pm

It seems like every year I must apologize for posts I have made. Here is my 2012 apology:
For those of you who suffered through my rant on yesterdays Gingrich thread, I offer my sincere apologies. My explanation (not an excuse) was that I was "celebrating" a rare day off. I stand by some of the things I posted but I was very wrong in being so strident.
For those few of you who know me, you know it was uncharacteristic of my style. I'll try not to be such a sphincter in future.

85 MittDoesNotCompute  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 7:47:37pm

re: #74 Charles Johnson

I don't agree with this equivalence meme. What's really happening is that right wing ideologues are doing everything possible to keep the public from realizing what's going on among their base, by screaming bloody murder about people like Bill Maher and Robert DeNiro, who don't have 1/1,000,000th of the influence of a Rush Limbaugh or a Fox News.

Wait, what did DeNiro say? Something stupid, I assume, since you grouped him up with Maher...

86 The Ghost of a Flea  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 7:48:53pm

re: #85 talon_262

Wait, what did DeNiro say? Something stupid, I assume, since you grouped him up with Maher...

At an event he made a joke like "...but is America ready for a white First Lady?"

87 Killgore Trout  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 7:48:58pm

re: #79 The Ghost of a Flea

Also, the article is ducking that some people apply their outrage evenly

Very few and it's usually just because they're willing to throw their own idiots under the bus to get at idiots on the other side if the fence. It's still unscrupulous.

88 Kragar  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 7:49:09pm

re: #85 talon_262

Wait, what did DeNiro say? Something stupid, I assume, since you grouped him up with Maher...

He made a joke wondering if America was ready for a white First Lady and the wingers lost their shit over it.

89 Gus  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 7:49:18pm

re: #83 Kragar

Somebody put a belt in his mouth or he'll swallow his tongue!

From 90 to victim in 25 seconds!

90 JamesWI  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 7:49:58pm

re: #86 The Ghost of a Flea

At an event he made a joke like "...but is America ready for a white First Lady?"

Clearly just as bad as calling women who use birth control "sluts" and "prostitutes!"

Magical Balance Fairy, away!

91 Obdicut  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 7:50:17pm

re: #87 Killgore Trout

Ah, so it's all selective outrage except when it isn't and then it's still bad.

Do you listen to yourself?

92 Achilles Tang  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 7:50:31pm

re: #80 Killgore Trout

It's all selective outrage and nonsense. I know the partisan activists can somehow always manage to justify their outrage and dismiss the opposing outrage but it's still bullshit.

Either all outrage is bullshit or some is and some is not. You even sound outraged in these sentences; are we to conclude that what you say is therefore nonsense?

93 jaunte  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 7:50:34pm

re: #85 talon_262

It went down well at the time but the next day Newt Gingrich seemed unamused: "What De Niro said last night was inexcusable and the president should apologise for him. It was… beyond the pale and he should be ashamed of himself."

That's a tough response. Gingrich reckons that De Niro's remark is so offensive that he can't even apologise for it himself. The apology has to come from the head of state.
[Link: www.guardian.co.uk...]

94 MittDoesNotCompute  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 7:51:14pm

re: #82 Obdicut

All of it? Everyone who is outraged that Limbaugh lied about Fluke's testimony while calling her a prostitute, that's all totally selective and it's nonsense to be outraged that he's spreading disinformation and lies?

What a load.

Rush's disinformation causes actual problems. Human beings influence each other. It's what they do. Being outraged that someone is influencing people to be assholes, to believe in lies, to treat others poorly, is not 'nonsense'.

You need to ignore all of human history to believe it is.

And some people, by the sheer size of their audience, influence more people and wield more political power than others. By that metric, Maher is a buzzing gnat compared even to a damaged Rush.

95 jaunte  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 7:51:36pm

Apology tour!

96 The Ghost of a Flea  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 7:52:31pm

re: #87 Killgore Trout

Very few and it's usually just because they're willing to throw their own idiots under the bus to get at idiots on the other side if the fence. It's still unscrupulous.

So is telling a lie, creating an outrage equivalent to calling out a lie, creating an outrage?

97 MittDoesNotCompute  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 7:52:44pm

re: #86 The Ghost of a Flea

At an event he made a joke like "...but is America ready for a white First Lady?"

re: #88 Kragar

He made a joke wondering if America was ready for a white First Lady and the wingers lost their shit over it.

That's pretty good...I like that it gave the RWNJs the vapors.

98 Kragar  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 7:53:00pm

My take on the latest outrageous outrage over outrage..

“I think that all good, right thinking people in this country are sick and tired of being told that all good, right thinking people in this country are fed up with being told that all good, right thinking people in this country are fed up with being sick and tired. I'm certainly not, and I'm sick and tired of being told that I am”

99 jaunte  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 7:54:19pm

"Fox News. Not always outrageous, but #1 with outraged people."

100 Interesting Times  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 7:55:36pm
101 Gus  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 7:56:12pm

If Obama had to return the 1 million dollar donation from Bill Maher because of all the "offensive" things that Maher has said then the Republican party would have to return all of their contributions from their contributors.

102 Mocking Jay  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 7:57:00pm

re: #99 jaunte

"Fox News. Not always outrageous, but #1 with outraged people."

#1 with a bullet...

103 RadicalModerate  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 7:57:13pm

re: #80 Killgore Trout

It's all selective outrage and nonsense. I know the partisan activists can somehow always manage to justify their outrage and dismiss the opposing outrage but it's still bullshit.

Not buying it. Many times said outrage is wholly justified.

An example: Your false equivalence there could be interpreted as giving support for Jim Crow-era opposition to the Civil Rights movement - which is a belief that I know that you don't have.

104 Targetpractice  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 7:57:56pm

re: #93 jaunte

Remind me again, who was it that apologized for Rush's comments, which supposedly were "no different" than De Niro's?

105 The Ghost of a Flea  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 7:57:59pm

re: #101 Gus

If Obama had to return the 1 million dollar donation from Bill Maher because of all the "offensive" things that Maher has said then the Republican party would have to return all of their contributions from their contributors.

Except the $10^6 went to the superPAC, so Obama actually can't consult with them to make them send it back....

106 Gus  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 7:58:06pm

Meh. The wingers were outraged with Jon Stewart during the Bush years.

107 Gus  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 7:58:39pm

Dixie Chicks

108 Obdicut  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 7:58:53pm

There are some rather clear indicators that the outrage over Rush's insanely misogynistic, lying rant wasn't partisan.

One clue would be the conservative women who criticized him for it.

109 Targetpractice  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 7:59:01pm

re: #101 Gus

If Obama had to return the 1 million dollar donation from Bill Maher because of all the "offensive" things that Maher has said then the Republican party would have to return all of their contributions from their contributors.

Did Santorum ever break ties with the fellow bankrolling his campaign that stated that birth control was "an aspirin held between the knees"?

110 Gus  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 7:59:53pm

re: #109 Targetpractice

Did Santorum ever break ties with the fellow bankrolling his campaign that stated that birth control was "an aspirin held between the knees"?

Nope.

111 Killgore Trout  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 7:59:56pm

re: #107 Gus

Dixie Chicks

451 f!

112 EdDantes  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 8:00:03pm

re: #95 jaunte

Apology tour!

No tour.It's only here.

113 RadicalModerate  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 8:00:15pm

re: #108 Obdicut

There are some rather clear indicators that the outrage over Obama's insanely misogynistic, lying rant wasn't partisan.

One clue would be the conservative women who criticized him for it.

Wait. Obama's rant?

Did I miss something?

114 Gus  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 8:00:49pm

re: #111 Killgore Trout

451 f!

Never watched that.

115 goddamnedfrank  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 8:00:55pm

re: #108 Obdicut

Might want to edit that while there's still time.

116 Obdicut  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 8:01:15pm

re: #113 RadicalModerate

Wait. Obama's rant?

Did I miss something?

Heh. I meant Rush. I was reading the post about Obama and the superpac at the same time.

117 Killgore Trout  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 8:01:16pm

re: #114 Gus

Never watched that.

Read it and thank me later.

118 Achilles Tang  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 8:01:37pm

re: #109 Targetpractice

Did Santorum ever break ties with the fellow bankrolling his campaign that stated that birth control was "an aspirin held between the knees"?

There's a difference. Obama to the best of my understanding doesn't use Maher language, nor approve of his style. Santorum almost certainly thinks the aspirin remedy is perfectly logical allegorically speaking.

119 Kronocide  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 8:02:26pm

Riehl calling the Sharptons and Jacksons of the world the problem is immensely hypocritical.

Riehl and Limbaugh are the ones who are bad.

120 Achilles Tang  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 8:02:29pm

re: #116 Obdicut

Heh. I meant Rush. I was reading the post about Obama and the superpac at the same time.

I was waiting for the edit.

121 Targetpractice  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 8:03:03pm

And that's what I'm getting at, that the demands for Obama to give back Maher's money (which he legally don't do anyway) should also hold true for Santorum continuing to take money from a guy who outraged women with his "aspirin" comment.

122 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 8:03:07pm

re: #7 Obdicut

Image: million-hoody-march-trayvon-martin.jpg

Okay, the one Riehl is referencing is a blurry picture, but they look nothing alike.

Aside from one factor, of course.

There are a lot of Trayvons out there. Nearly all of which share that factor. And Martin is an extremely common surname.

Great, they found a picture of a boy named Trayvon Martin sagging. This proves something, I'm sure.

123 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 8:04:00pm

re: #13 Mostly sane, most of the time.

Whoever the young man in the photo is, his parents should know to make him take down the photo.

It could cost him a job later on. Kids need to know not to post stupid pictures on facebook.

He should listen to his grandmother and pull up his pants.

Dan Riehl, on the other hand...

124 Killgore Trout  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 8:04:10pm

Repost from last night: Hitchens - free speech

Youtube Video

I can't think of many of my idols who opposed free speech or sought to squash dissent.
125 Obdicut  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 8:05:11pm

re: #124 Killgore Trout

Good thing that being angry at what Rush is saying and voicing that anger isn't in any way being opposed to free speech then, isn't it?

126 jaunte  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 8:05:38pm

re: #124 Killgore Trout

Are you warning against some specific person or movement that's quashing dissent?

127 What, me worry?  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 8:05:52pm

re: #70 Killgore Trout

The thing is, every time there is a justifiable outrage (i.e. calling Sandra Fluke a slut) you'll find some bozo who tries to out-outrage it. That's what Newt was attempting to do with Dinero. #EpicFail

128 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 8:05:53pm

re: #15 Charles Johnson

Because someone like Dan Riehl might find it.

There's a completely hysterical clip on YouTube which features a young man telling a story about the Most Racist Field Trip Ever.

Apparently he later asked that it be taken down (too late dude, went viral), because he was worried it would make him look bad to future employers. I have no idea why, except that he uses some racial language, and some language, and tells an incredibly funny story about an idiotic thing that happened to him as a kid. But kids these days are incredibly careful about their web presence, or not careful at all.

129 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 8:07:08pm

re: #27 Kragar

Who ever heard of a teenage boy posing for a picture which makes him look like an idiot? Such an event has never happened in all of human history. Surely it warrants punishment most dire.

I think we've got some pictures of my cousin in basically that outfit and pose. He went on to get married, work in the family business, and is now the father of two. Life goes on.

130 Obdicut  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 8:07:28pm

re: #128 SanFranciscoZionist

That was freaking hilarious.

131 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 8:07:37pm

re: #35 talon_262

We know exactly why the RWNJs are looking for any and all pics of Trayvon Martin they can find; it's to dehumanize him and discredit any notion that he was (overall) a good kid, so they can crow that he was a "thug" who had it coming to him.

It's fucking disgusting; his family has to be frustrated and pissed off over all of this.

They know who he had to be. They just need proof.

132 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 8:09:12pm

re: #42 The Ghost of a Flea

And Kelis's milkshakes bring noone, anywhere.

I dunno about the milkshakes, but that video brought a lot of guys somewhere specific.

133 freetoken  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 8:09:34pm

One thing I notice about the Louisiana primary is that Mitt took exactly one county: Orleans. Proving once again that the urban elite (yes, there apparently are urban elite in Louisiana) Republicans are his only constituency (outside of his religion.)

This is why the wingnuts are allowed in by the GOP hierarchy: somebody has to turn out on election day in November and vote for the GOP ticket, and given that the nominal GOP candidate has such a small natural constituency (rich folk and Mormons) the GOP is counting on the OBAMA IS AN ATHEIST MUSLIM!! hate crowd to turn out and do a "no" vote on the President.

134 Killgore Trout  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 8:10:17pm

re: #126 jaunte

Are you warning against some specific person or movement that's quashing dissent?

Sort of. I'm trying to keep it general but in the spirit of being self critical I'm directing my criticism at my fellows on the left to not follow their counterparts down the road of censorship. There's no need to fear ideas and words, it's a sign of weakness.

135 moderatelyradicalliberal  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 8:10:23pm

re: #128 SanFranciscoZionist

There's a completely hysterical clip on YouTube which features a young man telling a story about the Most Racist Field Trip Ever.

Apparently he later asked that it be taken down (too late dude, went viral), because he was worried it would make him look bad to future employers. I have no idea why, except that he uses some racial language, and some language, and tells an incredibly funny story about an idiotic thing that happened to him as a kid. But kids these days are incredibly careful about their web presence, or not careful at all.

You mean the guy who was taken to a cotton farm field trip? That shit was hilarious.

136 Kragar  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 8:11:05pm

re: #132 SanFranciscoZionist

I dunno about the milkshakes, but that video brought a lot of guys somewhere specific.

Youtube Video
137 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 8:11:48pm

re: #86 The Ghost of a Flea

At an event he made a joke like "...but is America ready for a white First Lady?"

Not getting the outrage about that comment. It was ungallant, to say the least, since he named several candidates for the position by name, but not the biggest deal.

139 Obdicut  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 8:12:15pm

re: #134 Killgore Trout

There's no need to fear ideas and words, it's a sign of weakness.

Anyone who doesn't acknowledge that ideas and words can inspire people to terrible, terrible things is a fool who refuses to look at history or a real view of humanity.

140 Gus  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 8:14:11pm

re: #138 jaunte

Iraqi woman critically beaten in Calif.; threat note left at scene

Iraqi woman severely beaten in Calif. home dies

Video here.

It's terrible. Unfortunately the daughter speaking in the video says that the perpetrator is "not a Muslim, not a Christian, not a Jew, but someone without God." I don't know what to say.

141 What, me worry?  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 8:14:17pm

re: #128 SanFranciscoZionist

There's a completely hysterical clip on YouTube which features a young man telling a story about the Most Racist Field Trip Ever.

Apparently he later asked that it be taken down (too late dude, went viral), because he was worried it would make him look bad to future employers. I have no idea why, except that he uses some racial language, and some language, and tells an incredibly funny story about an idiotic thing that happened to him as a kid. But kids these days are incredibly careful about their web presence, or not careful at all.

I just thank my lucky stars I didn't have to go through adolescence in the technology age.

We had these things called "slam books". They were "illegal", meaning if a teacher caught you with one, you got a detention. You'd pass them around and each person would write down something nasty about another person. They were awful, mean-spiritied things, because they were written anonymously. Yeesh.

142 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 8:14:32pm

re: #130 Obdicut

That was freaking hilarious.

It's fabulous. He's a hell of a story-teller.

143 palomino  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 8:14:48pm

re: #134 Killgore Trout

Sort of. I'm trying to keep it general but in the spirit of being self critical I'm directing my criticism at my fellows on the left to not follow their counterparts down the road of censorship. There's no need to fear ideas and words, it's a sign of weakness.

It's not the ideas and words people fear, it's the rage and bullets that often flow from those ideas.

144 The Ghost of a Flea  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 8:15:38pm

re: #124 Killgore Trout

Repost from last night: Hitchens - free speech

[Embedded content]
I can't think of many of my idols who opposed free speech or sought to squash dissent.

Dude...Hitchens may be right, but you're misappropriating his argument.

For one thing, you can't take that clip and extrapolate from it "we should listen to people as they lie and not call out their lies" because the clip doesn't address ontology.

145 moderatelyradicalliberal  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 8:15:46pm

re: #137 SanFranciscoZionist

Not getting the outrage about that comment. It was ungallant, to say the least, since he named several candidates for the position by name, but not the biggest deal.

The joke was obviously a play off of the "is America ready for a black POTUS/FLOUTS" stuff that went on during 2008. Does anyone seriously think we won't have another white FLOTUS one day?

146 Killgore Trout  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 8:15:59pm

re: #143 palomino

It's not the ideas and words people fear, it's the rage and bullets that often flow from those ideas.

Then fear away. Fearful people are always the most reasonable.
/

147 Obdicut  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 8:16:11pm

re: #134 Killgore Trout

There's no need to fear ideas and words, it's a sign of weakness.

Do you think the oft-repeated words that conveyed the idea that the Jews were responsible for Germany's troubles after WWI were not to be feared?

Words that described Jews to be scum, subhuman, evil, traitorous, that accused them of all manner of crimes-- you really feel those words and ideas-- and the centuries upon centuries of anti-Jewish thought in Europe-- didn't contribute in any way to what occurred?

148 moderatelyradicalliberal  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 8:16:56pm

re: #142 SanFranciscoZionist

It's fabulous. He's a hell of a story-teller.

I don't see how it would hurt him. It was a funny telling of a true story in front of his white friends who were cracking up.

149 Killgore Trout  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 8:17:02pm

re: #147 Obdicut

Do you think the oft-repeated words that conveyed the idea that the Jews were responsible for Germany's troubles after WWI were not to be feared?

Words that described Jews to be scum, subhuman, evil, traitorous, that accused them of all manner of crimes-- you really feel those words and ideas-- and the centuries upon centuries of anti-Jewish thought in Europe-- didn't contribute in any way to what occurred?

Godwined!

150 Charles Johnson  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 8:17:20pm

Dan Riehl's latest attempt:

151 Killgore Trout  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 8:18:16pm

re: #147 Obdicut

Do you think the oft-repeated words that conveyed the idea that the Jews were responsible for Germany's troubles after WWI were not to be feared?

Words that described Jews to be scum, subhuman, evil, traitorous, that accused them of all manner of crimes-- you really feel those words and ideas-- and the centuries upon centuries of anti-Jewish thought in Europe-- didn't contribute in any way to what occurred?

BTW, if you listened to that speech you'd know that Hitch addresses that point.

152 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 8:18:24pm

re: #135 moderatelyradicalliberal

You mean the guy who was taken to a cotton farm field trip? That shit was hilarious.

Yeah. The "pick as much cotton as you want" field trip. I felt bad when I heard he was trying to get rid of it. It's really funny, and doesn't reflect badly on anyone except his teacher, and whatever administrator approved this trip.

153 jaunte  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 8:18:36pm

The central message of Buddhism is not "Every man for himself."

154 Obdicut  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 8:18:49pm

re: #149 Killgore Trout

Godwined!

If you like, use any of the other times that the Jews were massacred throughout history after anti-Jewish propaganda was spread. Not that I think you'll actually engage with the question seriously, because that's not really your style.

155 Kragar  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 8:19:29pm

re: #150 Charles Johnson

Dan Riehl's latest attempt:

Dan Riehl is not really in a position to talk about someone's picture.

156 Obdicut  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 8:19:34pm

re: #151 Killgore Trout

BTW, if you listened to that speech you'd know that Hitch addresses that point.

I'm asking you, Killgore, not Hitchens. Why not give answering by yourself a shot?

157 goddamnedfrank  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 8:19:49pm

re: #134 Killgore Trout

Sort of. I'm trying to keep it general but in the spirit of being self critical I'm directing my criticism at my fellows on the left to not follow their counterparts down the road of censorship. There's no need to fear ideas and words, it's a sign of weakness.

Boycotting isn't censorship though. Censorship by definition includes a violation of free will, the blocking of someone's right to speak or publish. Boycotts themselves are voluntary expression of people's right to speech, not base in fear but in an equivalent exercise of freedom.

158 Killgore Trout  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 8:20:14pm

re: #153 jaunte

The central message of Buddhism is not "Every man for himself."

Of course the central message is "nobody for nothing".
/zen

159 Kragar  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 8:20:22pm

re: #153 jaunte

The central message of Buddhism is not "Every man for himself."

The Blessed Virgin is not to be referred to as "Sweet Mary with the cherry."

160 moderatelyradicalliberal  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 8:20:47pm

re: #150 Charles Johnson

Dan Riehl's latest attempt:

These people are going increasingly crazy. They can't stand that most decent people are horrified and saddened by what happened to Trayvon and have to find a way to reverse the emotional outpouring for this black kid. They are terrible racists and their illness is becoming worse. It's hard to argue that the only real racism is anti-white racism when most black people can imagine what happened happening to their child and most white people can't.

161 Obdicut  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 8:21:08pm

re: #159 Kragar

The Blessed Virgin is not to be referred to as "Sweet Mary with the cherry."

I horrified my parents as a kid by asking them if Mary stayed a virgin, and, if so, wasn't she violating the Catholic doctrine to be fruitful and multiply.

162 palomino  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 8:21:47pm

re: #146 Killgore Trout

Then fear away. Fearful people are always the most reasonable.
/

Is it illogical to sometimes fear the words, ideas and provocations of reactionaries, authoritarians and religious fanatics?

163 moderatelyradicalliberal  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 8:22:17pm

re: #157 goddamnedfrank

Boycotting isn't censorship though. Censorship by definition includes a violation of free will, the blocking of someone's right to speak or publish. Boycotts themselves are voluntary expression of people's right to speech, not base in fear but in an equivalent exercise of freedom.

My understanding is that censorship comes from the government, not private citizens or companies deciding they don't want anything to do with you.

164 JamesWI  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 8:22:25pm

re: #124 Killgore Trout

Repost from last night: Hitchens - free speech

[Embedded content]
I can't think of many of my idols who opposed free speech or sought to squash dissent.

Calling a woman who uses birth control "slut" and "prostitute" for a week, and saying that you have a right to see videos of her having sex if she thinks insurance should cover birth control, isn't "dissent." It's evil, disgusting, bile.

165 Lidane  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 8:22:48pm

re: #30 Charles Johnson

What the hell is wrong with the right wing blogosphere?

How much time do we have to answer that question?

There are many and varied things wrong with the right wing blogosphere, starting with the morons who make up the right wing blogosphere. =P

166 Interesting Times  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 8:23:43pm

re: #154 Obdicut

If you like, use any of the other times that the Jews were massacred throughout history after anti-Jewish propaganda was spread.

Or a more recent example:

According to recent commentators, the news media played a crucial role in the genocide; local print and radio media fueled the killings while the international media either ignored or seriously misconstrued events on the ground.[20] The print media in Rwanda is believed to have started hate speech against Tutsis, which was later continued by radio stations. According to commentators, anti-Tutsi hate speech "...became so systemic as to seem the norm." The state-owned newspaper Kangura had a central role, starting an anti-Tutsi and anti-RPF campaign in October 1990.

167 Targetpractice  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 8:24:26pm

re: #165 Lidane

How much time do we have to answer that question?

There are many and varied things wrong with the right wing blogosphere, starting with the morons who make up the right wing blogosphere. =P

To paraphrase one of their supposed icons, "Well, the trouble with our wingnut friends is not that they are ignorant, but that they know so much that isn’t so."

168 palomino  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 8:24:47pm

Dan Riehl is the same guy who fantasizes about beating up black kids when riding the DC Metro. His response today is disgusting but shouldn't be surprising in his case.

169 Kronocide  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 8:25:00pm

re: #164 JamesWI

Calling a woman who uses birth control "slut" and "prostitute" for a week, and saying that you have a right to see videos of her having sex if she thinks insurance should cover birth control, isn't "dissent." It's evil, disgusting, bile.

I also don't know any comments of any of the supposed lefties that compare to anything like that.

Reihl is another example, not comparison on the left.

170 freetoken  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 8:25:03pm

re: #138 jaunte

Iraqi woman critically beaten in Calif.; threat note left at scene

This is really sad and I hope more information is forthcoming.

I'm in that area regularly enough to know that the ethnic change has been noticeable the past two decades or so. There have been quite an influx of people from Arab speaking countries, and this started with the fallout from the first Gulf War when Iraqi Christians were resettled around here, and there have been waves of Iraqis (and presumably a few misc ethnic groups from that region) that have settled in the eastern suburban areas of San Diego. If one goes down the main street of El Cajon there are storefronts of obviously Arab shopkeepers clustered in certain areas.

Anyway, this part of the larger metropolitan region has long been a mixture of "rednecks" and Mexican immigrants. This is Duncan Hunter (senior and junior) territory and the dominant political landscape has been that of "conservative Christian" for some time (witness again the long time capture of the Congressional seat by the Hunters.)

I've been wondering how the influx of a new kind of immigrant would change the area. Most of the newly arrived Arab speaking population seem to lack in English skills, so they really do stay within their group quite a bit. When I've been in the area its quite obvious to a careful observer. Even in the gyms in the area which I have visited it is not unusual for me to come across a couple of guys speaking Arabic - heck, even today at the gym there were two guys and two girls hanging out speaking Arabic - one of the guys was clearly trying to instruct the other in English phrases to use in a gym.

Anyway, long story short - the traditional ethnic tension here has always been against Mexicans. I doubt there will be enough Arab speaking immigrants to change the landscape greatly, but I for one am glad that the area is diversifying and inching ever so slowly to being more cosmopolitan.

171 Killgore Trout  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 8:25:09pm

re: #164 JamesWI

It's evil, disgusting, bile.

It is, and is all the more deserving of protection. Hitch also addresses that in his speech. You should watch it.

172 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 8:25:31pm

re: #148 moderatelyradicalliberal

I don't see how it would hurt him. It was a funny telling of a true story in front of his white friends who were cracking up.

I don't get it either, unless, and this is sadly not totally insane, he was afraid that being on record talking about race would make him look bad.

I love that one guy sitting behind him who is just DYING through the whole story

173 Obdicut  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 8:26:13pm

re: #171 Killgore Trout

It is, and is all the more deserving of protection. Hitch also addresses that in his speech. You should watch it.

It's completely deserving of protection from censorship by the government.

It's not deserving of protection from people calling up their advertisers and telling them they think it's bile.

Conflating the two is idiotic.

174 Kragar  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 8:26:19pm

Recent news items have put me in a foul mood.

Youtube Video
175 moderatelyradicalliberal  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 8:27:15pm

re: #172 SanFranciscoZionist

I don't get it either, unless, and this is sadly not totally insane, he was afraid that being on record talking about race would make him look bad.

I love that one guy sitting behind him who is just DYING through the whole story

Yeah, that guy made it even funnier.

176 Targetpractice  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 8:27:50pm

re: #173 Obdicut

It's completely deserving of protection from censorship by the government.

It's not deserving of protection from people calling up their advertisers and telling them they think it's bile.

Conflating the two is idiotic.

Indeed. Apparently boycotts are a-okay, so long as you silently do it. The moment you call up the company and tell them you're no longer doing business with them because of who they advertise on, then you're engaging in "censorship."

177 What, me worry?  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 8:27:57pm

re: #150 Charles Johnson

When he stops typing like a prepubescent girl, I'll pay closer attention. Yikes!

178 JamesWI  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 8:28:02pm

re: #171 Killgore Trout

It is, and is all the more deserving of protection. Hitch also addresses that in his speech. You should watch it.

And he has a right to say it. And I have a right to tell companies not to advertise on his show. And none of that violates his freedom of speech. It's simple to understand, yet you have been whining about it for weeks, and will continue to do so after this post.

179 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 8:28:04pm

re: #160 moderatelyradicalliberal

These people are going increasingly crazy. They can't stand that most decent people are horrified and saddened by what happened to Trayvon and have to find a way to reverse the emotional outpouring for this black kid. They are terrible racists and their illness is becoming worse. It's hard to argue that the only real racism is anti-white racism when most black people can imagine what happened happening to their child and most white people can't.

It's not even that they can't stand for this to be a tragedy about race. They can't even stand for it to be a tragedy. They can't stop at saying "It could have happened to anyone." They have to make Trayvon the bad guy here.

It's pathological.

180 JamesWI  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 8:30:41pm

Apparently, Rush Limbaugh has the right to say "Hey (potential advertiser) you should buy ad space on my show." But I don't have the right to say "Hey (advertiser), don't buy ad space on his show." Because that's totally tyranny, and violating his right to free speech.

...

181 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 8:30:46pm

re: #168 palomino

Dan Riehl is the same guy who fantasizes about beating up black kids when riding the DC Metro. His response today is disgusting but shouldn't be surprising in his case.

He was afraid to carry out his fantasies then. I have a terrible feeling he's living vicariously through George Zimmerman.

182 moderatelyradicalliberal  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 8:30:46pm

re: #179 SanFranciscoZionist

It's not even that they can't stand for this to be a tragedy about race. They can't even stand for it to be a tragedy. They can't stop at saying "It could have happened to anyone." They have to make Trayvon the bad guy here.

It's pathological.

Right. They can't allow for a black boy's death to be a tragedy or that most people see it that way.

183 Obdicut  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 8:31:13pm

re: #176 Targetpractice


Actually, Killgore has never even said whether he thinks not buying the product of a company because they advertise with someone you loathe is a proper response. Who knows? Maybe he thinks that's unfair economic pressure too.

He hasn't exactly been Mr. Consistency in his semi-arguments.

184 Killgore Trout  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 8:32:00pm

re: #173 Obdicut

It's completely deserving of protection from censorship by the government.

It's not deserving of protection from people calling up their advertisers and telling them they think it's bile.

Conflating the two is idiotic.

You still haven't watched his speech or if you have you haven't understood it. He never mentions government censorship, he's talking about voluntary self censorship. Seriously, dude. Intentionally not understanding an idea or the meaning of a word is not a fruitful debate technique. It's frustrating to your opponent and they will eventually go away and ignore you. You can count that as a victory but intentional ignorance isn't going to persuade anyone who doesn't already agree with you.

185 freetoken  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 8:32:03pm

re: #171 Killgore Trout

It is, and is all the more deserving of protection.

Talk shows on commercial networks, which includes all of the Premier Radio talk show content, are creative works crafted to sell time to advertisers.

As such, these are commercial activities.

To tell advertisers to channel their advertising dollars to something less offensive is hardly restricting the talk-show host's freedom of speech. It is more similar to me telling my grocery store that their milk is sour because it is past-date and that if they want me to buy milk then they need to keep past-date off the shelves (based on a true story, btw.)

186 Kronocide  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 8:33:35pm

re: #180 JamesWI

Apparently, Rush Limbaugh has the right to say "Hey (potential advertiser) you should buy ad space on my show." But I don't have the right to say "Hey (advertiser), don't buy ad space on his show." Because that's totally tyranny, and violating his right to free speech.

...

Free market of ideas.

187 Lidane  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 8:34:16pm

re: #173 Obdicut

It's completely deserving of protection from censorship by the government.

It's not deserving of protection from people calling up their advertisers and telling them they think it's bile.

Conflating the two is idiotic.

Yes, this.

188 Gus  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 8:34:17pm

re: #170 freetoken

Did you watch the video?

189 goddamnedfrank  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 8:34:20pm

re: #171 Killgore Trout

It is, and is all the more deserving of protection. Hitch also addresses that in his speech. You should watch it.

At no point does Hitch say or imply that speech should not be combatted with speech or that it shouldn't have consequences. Rush has been heard, now those who heard him have an equivalent right to respond in kind. This isn't censorship, it isn't even censorship-esque, it's all free speech. Hitch, on the other hand, is condemning the proscriptive banning of speech by governments and you're dishonestly conflating that with private action. You've been doing this for some time now, completely oblivious to the glaring, obvious difference.

190 palomino  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 8:34:40pm

re: #179 SanFranciscoZionist

It's not even that they can't stand for this to be a tragedy about race. They can't even stand for it to be a tragedy. They can't stop at saying "It could have happened to anyone." They have to make Trayvon the bad guy here.

It's pathological.

For the right to admit that it's a tragedy with a racial element would contradict their chosen narrative that racism is dead in America (except for Sharpton and Jackson, and that's directed at white people.)

191 What, me worry?  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 8:35:37pm

re: #179 SanFranciscoZionist

It's not even that they can't stand for this to be a tragedy about race. They can't even stand for it to be a tragedy. They can't stop at saying "It could have happened to anyone." They have to make Trayvon the bad guy here.

It's pathological.

It has something to do with this "thing" I started seeing on comment sites, mostly on Yahoo and why I've been boycotting them for years. That is, if you call someone a racist (the way that Zimmerman appears to have had racist motives), then you're really the true racist because you noticed the racism first. Basically, the fact that you saw the color difference means you're the one who is the real racist. I think it's the argument of nearly every racist I've seen online.

192 The Ghost of a Flea  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 8:35:38pm

re: #189 goddamnedfrank

At no point does Hitch say or imply that speech should not be combatted with speech or that it shouldn't have consequences. Rush has been heard, now those who heard him have an equivalent right to respond in kind. This isn't censorship, it isn't even censorship-esque, it's all free speech. Hitch, on the other hand, is condemning the proscriptive banning of speech by governments and you're dishonestly conflating that with private action. You've been doing this for some time now, completely oblivious to the glaring, obvious difference.

Hitch also doesn't say "Don't call out lies because they're a valuable form of dissent."

193 freetoken  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 8:36:03pm

re: #188 Gus

Did you watch the video?

You mean the Hitchen's video? No. I was responding (in general) to the idea that somehow trying to boycott or change a commercial product is somehow against the idea of "freedom", a sometimes hidden assertion that pops up here and there.

194 Targetpractice  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 8:36:40pm

re: #184 Killgore Trout

You still haven't watched his speech or if you hve you haven't understood it. He never mentions government censorship, he's talking about voluntary self censorship. Seriously, dude. Intentionally not understanding an idea or the meaning of a word is not a fruitful debate technique. It's frustrating to your opponent and they will eventually go away and ignore you. You can count that as a victory but intentional ignorance isn't going to persuade anyone who doesn't already agree with you.

Let me see if I understand this: By applying economic pressure to Rush by boycotting his advertisers, we're forcing him to engage in "voluntary self censorship," i.e. watching what he says, and that's a violation of his freedom of speech?

195 Interesting Times  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 8:36:46pm

re: #184 Killgore Trout

Intentionally not understanding an idea or the meaning of a word is not a fruitful debate technique.

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

196 Lidane  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 8:37:07pm

re: #192 The Ghost of a Flea

Hitch also doesn't say "Don't call out lies because they're a valuable form of dissent."

Hitch would have been contradicting his entire body of work if he'd said that.

I'm still waiting for an explanation of how a boycott by private citizens, and how letters and activism from private citizens to advertisers counts as censorship or as a violation of anyone's free speech.

197 Obdicut  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 8:37:40pm

re: #184 Killgore Trout

You still haven't watched his speech or if you hve you haven't understood it.

Why are you incapable of presenting the argument on your own?

He never mentions government censorship, he's talking about voluntary self censorship. Seriously, dude. Intentionally not understanding an idea or the meaning of a word is not a fruitful debate technique.

I'm fully admitting I haven't watched the Hitchens video right now. My wife is asleep and my headphones are broken. If you can't make the argument on your own, go ahead and say so, but don't pretend that you and I are having an argument, then. I'll listen to it, and, if he's saying what your'e saying, I'll disagree with him too-- but I doubt it, because I don't think Hitchens was ever dumb enough to claim words and ideas aren't capable of having terrible, profound effects that one can rightly fear.

It's frustrating to your opponent and they will eventually go away and ignore you. You can count that as a victory but intentional ignorance isn't going to persuade anyone who doesn't already agree with you.

Is this more performance art? You're continually dodging the obviously apt questions about the history of propaganda-- of 'words and ideas'-- having actual, terrible influence, and you're accusing me intentionally not understanding something?

198 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 8:38:39pm

My college friend's niece is with the Peace Corps in Mali. She and her team have been pulled back into Bamako, and are all holed up in a safe house. Prayers and thoughts for her and her friends, and for the people they had to leave behind in the village they were working in are greatly appreciated.

199 Gus  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 8:39:23pm

re: #193 freetoken

You mean the Hitchen's video? No. I was responding (in general) to the idea that somehow trying to boycott or change a commercial product is somehow against the idea of "freedom", a sometimes hidden assertion that pops up here and there.

No this video interviewing the daughter.

200 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 8:39:26pm

Oh I pop in for another KT contrarian, it's all about me show.

Really?

201 JamesWI  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 8:40:18pm

re: #200 Hoodies for Justice. T

Oh I pop in for another KT contrarian, it's all about me show.

Really?

To be fair, that's what you'll get pretty much any time you pop in.

202 Obdicut  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 8:40:41pm

re: #198 SanFranciscoZionist

The rebels are led by battle-hardened colonels who fought in the army of Libyan dictator Muammar Gaddafi before returning home heavily armed.

Well, fuck. I hope the situation resolves peacefully and I hope your friend's niece escapes with no harm.

203 Lidane  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 8:40:45pm

re: #200 Hoodies for Justice. T

Oh I pop in for another KT contrarian, it's all about me show.

Really?

Of course. It's a day that ends in Y.

204 Gus  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 8:41:01pm

o_O

205 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 8:41:27pm

re: #201 JamesWI

To be fair, that's what you'll get pretty much any time you pop in.

ya.

206 freetoken  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 8:41:28pm

re: #199 Gus

No this video interviewing the daughter.

No. Thanks for linking it though.

207 Kronocide  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 8:42:09pm

What should Rush be protected from?

208 JamesWI  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 8:43:16pm

re: #207 Kronocide

What should Rush be protected from?

Our free speech, apparently.

209 Targetpractice  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 8:44:30pm

re: #207 Kronocide

What should Rush be protected from?

Apparently, any form of criticism. We're allowed to think him a sexist pig whose show is a blight upon the public air waves, but if we voice that in any way, we're violating his freedom of speech. Or hurting his fans, who should not have to be deprived of his show because we think it toxic.

210 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 8:44:34pm

re: #80 Killgore Trout

It's all selective outrage and nonsense. I know the partisan activists can somehow always manage to justify their outrage and dismiss the opposing outrage but it's still bullshit.

Where is a recent liberal analog to Limbaugh/Fluke?

211 moderatelyradicalliberal  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 8:44:39pm

Uh Oh. Jim Demint on tape saying that Romneycare was a model for the nation back in 2007. He was for the mandate before he was against it.

[Link: www.dailykos.com...]

212 jaunte  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 8:45:22pm

re: #211 moderatelyradicalliberal

Talk about some inconvenient speech.

213 Kragar  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 8:45:29pm

re: #207 Kronocide

What should Rush be protected from?

Consequences.

214 moderatelyradicalliberal  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 8:46:01pm

In case anyone needs a laugh.

Most Racist Field Trip Ever

Youtube Video
215 JamesWI  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 8:46:02pm

re: #212 jaunte

Talk about some inconvenient speech.

Quick, silence the criticism of Demint! We must protect his free speech!

///

216 Lidane  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 8:46:31pm

re: #207 Kronocide

What should Rush be protected from?

Zombies.

217 Targetpractice  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 8:47:14pm

re: #211 moderatelyradicalliberal

Uh Oh. Jim Demint on tape saying that Romneycare was a model for the nation back in 2007. He was for the mandate before he was against it.

[Link: www.dailykos.com...]

The mandate was real popular with Republicans before the Affordable Care Act. They used to sell it as a "personal responsibility" thing, that it was wrong that people should be able to stay out of the market until they needed care, then dump the costs on others. It was even a major part of their counter-proposal to "Hillarycare" during the Clinton years.

But then that there Muslim Kenyan came into office and took up the mandate, and now the Republicans hate it with a passion and think it an unprecedented and unconstitutional power grab.

218 Amory Blaine  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 8:47:19pm

He he I thought this pic was funny.

Image: romney_say_anything.jpg

219 What, me worry?  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 8:47:20pm

re: #209 Targetpractice

Apparently, any form of criticism. We're allowed to think him a sexist pig whose show is a blight upon the public air waves, but if we voice that in any way, we're violating his freedom of speech. Or hurting his fans, who should not have to be deprived of his show because we think it toxic.

I'm trying to think how far back Rush's insults go. He called Amy Carter ugly when she was a little girl back in the day.

220 JamesWI  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 8:47:20pm

re: #216 Lidane

Zombies.

If the zombies come, I'm not protecting him. He's a big enough meal to keep those zombies occupied for days.

221 The Ghost of a Flea  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 8:47:34pm

re: #184 Killgore Trout

You still haven't watched his speech or if you hve you haven't understood it. He never mentions government censorship, he's talking about voluntary self censorship. Seriously, dude. Intentionally not understanding an idea or the meaning of a word is not a fruitful debate technique. It's frustrating to your opponent and they will eventually go away and ignore you. You can count that as a victory but intentional ignorance isn't going to persuade anyone who doesn't already agree with you.

I disagree because you're making the leap that every opposition is rooted in insufficient understanding.

Second, there's the problem of what "understanding" and "intentional ignorance" are in the context of subjective impressions.

How do you debate a direct insult? What greater understanding of a mistruth is there than a precise knowledge of its untrue components?

And finally, how to you talk back to speech that refuses to recognize you, and denies that your voice as valid?

222 goddamnedfrank  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 8:48:02pm

re: #184 Killgore Trout

You still haven't watched his speech or if you have you haven't understood it. He never mentions government censorship, he's talking about voluntary self censorship. Seriously, dude. Intentionally not understanding an idea or the meaning of a word is not a fruitful debate technique. It's frustrating to your opponent and they will eventually go away and ignore you. You can count that as a victory but intentional ignorance isn't going to persuade anyone who doesn't already agree with you.

Jesus Christ this is embarrassing. He's only talking about censorship by temporal authority: specifically by the Austrian government, by the Canadian position of official censor and the law that creates it, by prior restraint which is banned by the US Constitution, by the Church and intimidation by the violent threats of religious fanatics. At no point does he say people should silence their voices and refuse to speak in peaceful opposition to what they've heard. You either can't comprehend his plain english or you've chosen to deceptively insert a message he never sent.

223 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 8:48:19pm

re: #134 Killgore Trout

Sort of. I'm trying to keep it general but in the spirit of being self critical I'm directing my criticism at my fellows on the left to not follow their counterparts down the road of censorship. There's no need to fear ideas and words, it's a sign of weakness.

Ideas and words can do great harm, we know that much from history.

224 Obdicut  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 8:48:40pm

re: #209 Targetpractice

Apparently, any form of criticism. We're allowed to think him a sexist pig whose show is a blight upon the public air waves, but if we voice that in any way, we're violating his freedom of speech. Or hurting his fans, who should not have to be deprived of his show because we think it toxic.

That was V1 of his argument. He didn't stick with that one for long. He moved through a couple more versions quickly, and then stuck on V4-- that only 'economic pressure' through contacting advertisers was wrong, though he occasionally snuck back into V3 (don't deprive others of what they want to hear, it's unfair) on occasion. Then he moved to V5 (boycotts don't actually exert economic pressure anyway) nicely undercutting V4 but is now on V6, which is that ideas and words are not to be feared.

It's not like words ever hurt anyone except all those people who are dead in wars and pogroms that started from words and ideas.

225 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 8:49:38pm

re: #214 moderatelyradicalliberal

In case anyone needs a laugh.

Most Racist Field Trip Ever

[Embedded content]

oh my. He told the story well.

226 freetoken  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 8:49:43pm

re: #199 Gus

One thing I wonder about this beating is if there aren't other motivating factors going on here. Breaking into a house from the back, in a decent neighborhood (Chase Ave goes through decent neighborhoods (even a bit upscale on the eastern end). And, from what has been reported the attacker would have stalked or otherwise had previous knowledge of who lived in that house. Anyway, I just feel that there is more to this story.

227 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 8:50:25pm

re: #171 Killgore Trout

It is, and is all the more deserving of protection. Hitch also addresses that in his speech. You should watch it.

Oh, it absolutely deserves protection, nobody argues against that.

228 Lidane  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 8:50:39pm

re: #220 JamesWI

If the zombies come, I'm not protecting him. He's a big enough meal to keep those zombies occupied for days.

True, but if you protect him at first, you've got insurance for when you need to make an escape from a big herd of walkers invading your farm.

229 moderatelyradicalliberal  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 8:52:18pm

re: #217 Targetpractice

The mandate was real popular with Republicans before the Affordable Care Act. They used to sell it as a "personal responsibility" thing, that it was wrong that people should be able to stay out of the market until they needed care, then dump the costs on others. It was even a major part of their counter-proposal to "Hillarycare" during the Clinton years.

But then that there Muslim Kenyan came into office and took up the mandate, and now the Republicans hate it with a passion and think it an unprecedented and unconstitutional power grab.

Yeah, I know. I was in graduate school when the debate was going on and we discussed how the mandate was once popular with the GOP. I know it won't matter on the Right because they create their own reality, but I think Team Obama should make it a point to drown the airwaves with these kinds of clips. It's important for people to know that modern conservatism is pretty much nothing but being against whatever liberals are for subject to be updated daily.

230 Sheila Broflovski  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 8:53:16pm

re: #214 moderatelyradicalliberal

In case anyone needs a laugh.

Most Racist Field Trip Ever

[Embedded content]

Ladies and gentlemen: I present, The Next Chris Rock!

231 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 8:53:17pm

Derp.

232 moderatelyradicalliberal  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 8:54:10pm

re: #230 Learned Mother of Zion

Ladies and gentlemen: I present, The Next Chris Rock!

That guy is missing his calling. He's funny as hell.

233 The Ghost of a Flea  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 8:54:36pm

re: #223 Liberal Entity

Ideas and words can do great harm, we know that much from history.

When you've got a group whose "voice" includes declaring all statements by another group invalid, a priori;

When you've got people that fight an idea by insulting and lashing out at the people that hold it;

When the terms of "dialogue" are rigged such that there's a bully pulpit;

You're either hanging out with Dittoheads or an authoritarian movement is looking to wrest control of the government.

234 Obdicut  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 8:54:41pm

re: #230 Learned Mother of Zion

He doesn't want to be, though. He asked for people to stop linking the video. I feel bad about sneakily watching it from time to time.

235 Gus  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 8:54:53pm

re: #226 freetoken

One thing I wonder about this beating is if there aren't other motivating factors going on here. Breaking into a house from the back, in a decent neighborhood (Chase Ave goes through decent neighborhoods (even a bit upscale on the eastern end). And, from what has been reported the attacker would have stalked or otherwise had previous knowledge of who lived in that house. Anyway, I just feel that there is more to this story.

I often wonder about police department of such small size and little experience. Most of the time these departments spend all of their money on equipment, SWAT, etc, and little on investigative training. Myself I tend to think that sometimes things are not what they seem. Even my own assumptions. Such as the way I observed the daughter react. But that could be my own bias.

236 Targetpractice  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 8:54:59pm

re: #229 moderatelyradicalliberal

Yeah, I know. I was in graduate school when the debate was going on and we discussed how the mandate was once popular with the GOP. I know it won't matter on the Right because they create their own reality, but I think Team Obama should make it a point to drown the airwaves with these kinds of clips. It's important for people to know that modern conservatism is pretty much nothing but being against whatever liberals are for subject to be updated daily.

I honestly think that most of the ads with real teeth are being saved until later, when the nominee is chosen and the major talking points are nailed down. "Obamacare" is pretty much a given, so such ads would certainly be devastating, especially if they're aimed at Romney.

237 goddamnedfrank  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 8:55:43pm

Killgore's right about one thing, that everyone really should watch that video. If for no other reason than to prove he couldn't have told a more blatant, bald faced lie when he said "[Hitch] never mentions government censorship."

238 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 8:56:20pm

re: #227 Liberal Entity

Oh, it absolutely deserves protection, nobody argues against that.

This.

239 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 8:56:23pm

re: #232 moderatelyradicalliberal

That guy is missing his calling. He's funny as hell.

His mom isn't going to let him.

240 Gus  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 8:56:46pm

re: #231 Liberal Entity

Derp.

Did you get enough beauty rest? What kind of moisturizer do you use?

//

241 moderatelyradicalliberal  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 8:57:25pm

re: #239 Hoodies for Justice. T

His mom isn't going to let him.

"You jive-ass muthafuckas!"

242 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 8:58:05pm

re: #240 Gus

A?

243 Sheila Broflovski  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 8:58:36pm

re: #234 Obdicut

He doesn't want to be, though. He asked for people to stop linking the video. I feel bad about sneakily watching it from time to time.

Aw c'mon, what's he want to be, a rocket scientist? Neil De Grasse Tyson is hella funny.

244 Gus  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 8:58:54pm

re: #242 Liberal Entity

A?

Killgore is a one-man army... Stop... Hold the line incoming fire!

[Boom!]

245 Randall Gross  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 8:58:57pm

Charles, I do believe that Dan has a man crush on you from gazing at your photo too long.

246 Charles Johnson  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 9:00:54pm

I'm beginning to think about how to keep people from flooding the Pages with posts that are nothing but links and quotes, while driving more substantive Pages off the lists.

A lot of Pages being posted is a good thing, but not if it buries stuff that deserves a wider audience.

247 Gus  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 9:01:56pm

re: #242 Liberal Entity

A?

I keed of course.

248 MittDoesNotCompute  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 9:02:59pm

re: #150 Charles Johnson

Dan Riehl's latest attempt:

[Embedded content]

Playground taunts are all that the RWNJs have left to fling, because facts aren't on their side, that's for damn sure.

249 freetoken  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 9:03:41pm

re: #246 Charles Johnson

Thanks for tackling this. I've been meaning to bring it up. I do appreciate people going out and finding interesting stories and linking to them. But I appreciate even more when people take the time to write long entries, for example as CL sometimes does, and does some background research.

250 freetoken  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 9:04:00pm

BTW, I don't have a good idea on how to go about this.

251 freetoken  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 9:04:41pm

re: #249 freetoken

pimf "do some background..."

grammar... sigh...

252 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 9:04:48pm

re: #246 Charles Johnson

Division into "news items" v. "diaries" (e.g. by an additional forced tag)?

253 Charles Johnson  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 9:04:52pm

re: #250 freetoken

I have some ideas, but I need to cogitate on it for a bit.

254 funky chicken  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 9:05:28pm

re: #17 Mostly sane, most of the time.

Or a prospective interviewer that just hired you.

Or the father of the young woman you would like to ask out.

Or your grandmother, who will not be amused.

I had to direct my son that a recent twitter post of his wasn't appropriate. Teenagers.

255 Kragar  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 9:05:29pm

re: #246 Charles Johnson

I'm beginning to think about how to keep people from flooding the Pages with posts that are nothing but links and quotes, while driving more substantive Pages off the lists.

A lot of Pages being posted is a good thing, but not if it buries stuff that deserves a wider audience.

Maybe something that compares linked and quoted text versus non formatted text.

256 blueraven  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 9:06:23pm

re: #207 Kronocide

What should Rush be protected from?

Dead Air

257 Obdicut  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 9:07:24pm

re: #252 Liberal Entity

Division into "news items" v. "diaries" (e.g. by an additional forced tag)?

I like that idea. I rarely post a page, but when I do, I try to put quite a bit of work into it.

But I also like the 'trivial' but fun things, like some shots from an observatory, and stuff like that.

258 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 9:07:28pm

Or it could be something like, three separate forms to fill: a) quote, b) link, c) comment. With the comment being optional, but with the frontpage streams depending on it, and with people abusing this option being first warned and then denied posting of pages.

259 Obdicut  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 9:08:06pm

re: #256 blueraven

Dead Air

Come on, it wasn't that bad a movie.

260 MittDoesNotCompute  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 9:08:19pm

re: #194 Targetpractice

Let me see if I understand this: By applying economic pressure to Rush by boycotting his advertisers, we're forcing him to engage in "voluntary self censorship," i.e. watching what he says, and that's a violation of his freedom of speech?

Yup.

Fuck Rush...let him eat static.

261 Amory Blaine  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 9:09:05pm

re: #259 Obdicut

[Link: left4dead.wikia.com...]

Awesome Left 4 Dead level.

262 freetoken  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 9:09:17pm

re: #253 Charles Johnson

re: #255 Kragar

Maybe something that compares linked and quoted text versus non formatted text.

I wonder that if, instead of presenting the Pages at the top in a stack with the most recent on top, the Pages were stacked with the most embedded links being the criteria, with maybe a 24 hour clock before a Page disappears (unless promoted), might be a way to get meatier Pages floating to the top.

263 Charles Johnson  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 9:09:29pm

re: #255 Kragar

Maybe something that compares linked and quoted text versus non formatted text.

That's one idea I had - a separate list for Pages that consist of nothing but a link and quoted text.

264 Sheila Broflovski  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 9:10:43pm

re: #263 Charles Johnson

That's one idea I had - a separate list for Pages that consist of nothing but a link and quoted text.

What about "pagers" who do nothing but spam links but never stay around to make a comment? I'm referring to Aigle, the Camera.org spambot.

265 alpuz  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 9:10:44pm

re: #7 Obdicut

He looks like my 13 year old son.

266 Interesting Times  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 9:11:19pm

re: #263 Charles Johnson

That's one idea I had - a separate list for Pages that consist of nothing but a link and quoted text.

The most straightforward way to prevent contiguous "sidebar spamming" would be limit to how many Pages someone can post within a given time period.

267 Obdicut  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 9:11:45pm

re: #263 Charles Johnson

While we're asking for stuff, I'd love to be able to stack pages from certain people-- like, along with Featured and Recent, have Recent pages by Favorites.

CL's stuff she puts a lot of work into, RightWingConspirator, infuriating as I may find some of his arguments, also dedicates himself to making a quality page, etc. I'm always interested in checking out their stuff. I know I can do it by going to pages and searching for them, but like with so many web things, when there's an extra step or two I rarely go about doing it.

268 MittDoesNotCompute  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 9:12:04pm

re: #219 Madge

I'm trying to think how far back Rush's insults go. He called Amy Carter ugly when she was a little girl back in the day.

Don't think he dissed Amy Carter, but I know he definitely dissed Chelsea Clinton when she was a teenager.

269 Kragar  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 9:12:22pm

re: #266 Interesting Times

The most straightforward way to prevent contiguous "sidebar spamming" would be limit to how many Pages someone can post within a given time period.

Or use moderators.

270 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 9:12:26pm

re: #267 Obdicut

Good idea.

271 Obdicut  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 9:12:58pm

re: #266 Interesting Times

I don't mind the spam at all, I just mind that people who post at a slower pace get pushed off so quickly.

272 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 9:14:17pm

re: #266 Interesting Times

The most straightforward way to prevent contiguous "sidebar spamming" would be limit to how many Pages someone can post within a given time period.

Also good. After all, why not force the *cough cough* multiposters just make a freaking digest page with all the links? I say 5 per day is more than enough.

273 blueraven  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 9:14:27pm

re: #259 Obdicut

Come on, it wasn't that bad a movie.

Tell it to Rush.

274 Interesting Times  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 9:14:33pm

re: #271 Obdicut

I don't mind the spam at all, I just mind that people who post at a slower pace get pushed off so quickly.

And the time limit would fix that - one Page per hour, or something like that. No massive all-at-once dumps that push others off, and it might make "dumpers" more judicious about what they post and when.

275 Charles Johnson  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 9:15:23pm

re: #267 Obdicut

While we're asking for stuff, I'd love to be able to stack pages from certain people-- like, along with Featured and Recent, have Recent pages by Favorites.

CL's stuff she puts a lot of work into, RightWingConspirator, infuriating as I may find some of his arguments, also dedicates himself to making a quality page, etc. I'm always interested in checking out their stuff. I know I can do it by going to pages and searching for them, but like with so many web things, when there's an extra step or two I rarely go about doing it.

Yes, a way to mark Favorite authors would be good for registered users, but it doesn't help push the better Pages out to the vast majority of of visitors who aren't registered.

276 freetoken  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 9:15:42pm

I suppose everyone could get so many "tickets" in any 24 hour period, which they can use up to post Pages. E.g., 4 tickets would allow 4 Pages to be made in a day.

277 goddamnedfrank  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 9:15:46pm

re: #253 Charles Johnson

I have some ideas, but I need to cogitate on it for a bit.

Something like only allowing one or two pages per hour per poster to display on the list would go a long way - create a new page within one hour of your last, it bumps your prior page(s) down/off. The binge page creators seem to work on an assembly line.

278 Charles Johnson  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 9:16:55pm

re: #274 Interesting Times

And the time limit would fix that - one Page per hour, or something like that. No massive all-at-once dumps that push others off, and it might make "dumpers" more judicious about what they post and when.

That's another idea I have in the pile. It would be the simplest one to try, so I may give that a shot before the more complex ones.

279 Obdicut  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 9:17:01pm

re: #275 Charles Johnson

Yes, a way to mark Favorite authors would be good for registered users, but it doesn't help push the better Pages out to the vast majority of of visitors who aren't registered.

Good point. Maybe just having a list of the most-updinged-pages-in-the-past 24 hours or something?

280 Gus  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 9:17:10pm

re: #276 freetoken

I suppose everyone could get so many "tickets" in any 24 hour period, which they can use up to post Pages. E.g., 4 tickets would allow 4 Pages to be made in a day.

Or. If over 4 then they go in a separate location. So 4 show up clearly and the rest go to a sub location.

281 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 9:18:05pm

re: #279 Obdicut

Nah, clique problem. IMHO.

282 Varek Raith  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 9:19:17pm

My page on a drunk Swedish moose was Pulitzer material.

:)

283 blueraven  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 9:19:23pm

re: #268 talon_262

Don't think he dissed Amy Carter, but I know he definitely dissed Chelsea Clinton.

He did

1988: Amy Carter, "the most unattractive presidential daughter in the history of the country"

[Link: www.buzzfeed.com...]

284 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 9:20:38pm

re: #282 +1 Adidas Hoodie of Justice

My page on a drunk Swedish moose was Pulitzer material.

:)

Link or GTFO!

285 Obdicut  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 9:20:38pm

re: #281 Liberal Entity

Nah, clique problem. IMHO.

You think a click clique might ding like a dang gang?

286 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 9:21:17pm

re: #285 Obdicut

You think a click clique might ding like a dang gang?

And then the claque joins!

287 MittDoesNotCompute  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 9:22:33pm

re: #283 blueraven

He did

[Link: www.buzzfeed.com...]

O RLY?

I guess Rush has a nasty habit of dissing teenage daughters of Democratic Presidents. A bit creepy, don't you think?

288 Lidane  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 9:22:41pm

re: #263 Charles Johnson

That's one idea I had - a separate list for Pages that consist of nothing but a link and quoted text.

Instead of creating a separate list of Pages, would there be a way to create a news feed where people could just post links to interesting articles, videos, or sites?

I'm not a web designer, so I have no idea, but I'd imagine that there's a way to just create a feed that anyone could quickly update if they didn't want to post a full, in-depth Page.

289 Obdicut  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 9:23:47pm

Alright, I need to attempt sleep. Come on sandman, smack me around.

290 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 9:24:06pm

re: #289 Obdicut

Alright, I need to attempt sleep. Come on sandman, smack me around.

*ZZZAAAPPP*

291 Varek Raith  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 9:24:09pm

re: #284 Liberal Entity

Link or GTFO!

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

292 Interesting Times  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 9:24:15pm

re: #289 Obdicut

Alright, I need to attempt sleep.

Count Mitt Romney position changes.

293 Gus  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 9:24:29pm

re: #289 Obdicut

Alright, I need to attempt sleep. Come on sandman, smack me around.

Youtube Video
294 Kronocide  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 9:24:31pm

re: #216 Lidane

Zombies.

Funny. I just watched the whole Walking Dead first season today.

Ironic, watching all this Dan Riehl crap. He's a zombie, his brain is melted, and he'll infect many more with his Derp Virus.

295 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 9:25:39pm

re: #291 +1 Adidas Hoodie of Justice

You weren't joking. "sick, drunk, or “half-stupid” takes the cake.

296 moderatelyradicalliberal  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 9:26:16pm

re: #287 talon_262

O RLY?

I guess Rush has a nasty habit of dissing teenage daughters of Democratic Presidents. A bit creepy, don't you think?

The Obama girls are beautiful, but I'm sure they are next. Not quite old enough yet.

He'll be sorry when he does.

297 Interesting Times  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 9:28:25pm

re: #296 moderatelyradicalliberal

The Obama girls are beautiful, but I'm sure they are next. Not quite old enough yet.

Ann Coulter begs to differ.

298 Prononymous, rogue demon hunter  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 9:30:29pm

How about if too many small pages are made within a certain timeframe they get condensed into one with some auto-formatting for clarity.

Anyway, I should sleep before long so I'll just leave some awesome sciencey radio interferometry right here: Image: VLA_small.jpg

299 Lidane  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 9:35:00pm

I shudder to think what all the usual suspects will say about this:

Iraqi woman severely beaten in Calif. home dies

A 32-year-old woman from Iraq who was found severely beaten next to a threatening note saying "go back to your country" died on Saturday.

Hanif Mohebi, the director of the San Diego chapter of the Council on American-Islamic Relations, said he met with Shaima Alawadi's family members in the morning and was told that she was taken off life support around 3 p.m.

"The family is in shock at the moment. They're still trying to deal with what happened," Mohebi said.

Alawadi, a mother of five, had been hospitalized since her 17-year-old daughter found her unconscious Wednesday in the family's house in El Cajon, police Lt. Steve Shakowski said.

The daughter, Fatima Al Himidi, told KUSI-TV her mother had been beaten on the head repeatedly with a tire iron, and that the note said "go back to your country, you terrorist."

300 freetoken  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 9:35:56pm

re: #299 Lidane

See our conversation upstream.

301 moderatelyradicalliberal  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 9:36:05pm

re: #297 Interesting Times

Ann Coulter begs to differ.

Oh, screw her. If she feels that way she should start herself. I double dog dare her.

302 Interesting Times  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 9:37:22pm

re: #301 moderatelyradicalliberal

Oh, screw her. If she feels that way she should start herself. I double dog dare her.

Actually, I forgot the article I linked to also specified that Limbaugh has ALREADY attacked Obama's children:

In June 2010, Limbaugh mocked Malia Obama, and in an apparent attempt to imitate her, asked: "Daddy? Did you shake down BP yet, Daddy? Are you going to make them pay, Daddy?" Limbaugh was referring to a remark Obama made during a May 2010 press conference, in which he said that Malia had asked him of the Gulf oil spill: "Did you plug the hole yet, Daddy?"

303 prairiefire  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 9:37:36pm

re: #299 Lidane

Somehow I get the feeling the note is a red herring. I could be wrong.

304 Gus  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 9:38:41pm

Ladies and gentleman. The president of the United States of America, Barrack Obama!

Youtube Video
305 Kragar  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 9:38:52pm

re: #299 Lidane

I shudder to think what all the usual suspects will say about this:

Iraqi woman severely beaten in Calif. home dies

Holy shit, thats only a few miles from my place.

306 moderatelyradicalliberal  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 9:42:35pm

re: #302 Interesting Times

Actually, I forgot the article I linked to also specified that Limbaugh has ALREADY attacked Obama's children:

I'm not really bothered by that. That was a shot at Obama. Coulter is talking about direct attacks and insults. Although, I have no doubt that it drives them crazy that there really isn't anything to insult. It drives them nuts that the Obamas are seen not just as a normal family, but a model family. The fact that they are black Democrats with a model family has them nearly psychotic. I think we all know how the right would have responded if Malia Obama had been 17 and pregnant. No praise for not having an abortion, that's for damn sure.

307 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 9:42:40pm

re: #303 prairiefire

Somehow I get the feeling the note is a red herring. I could be wrong.

It feels weird, and off somehow.

I guess we see what the investigation turns up.

Nothing good, I'm sure.

308 Kragar  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 9:43:00pm

re: #302 Interesting Times

Actually, I forgot the article I linked to also specified that Limbaugh has ALREADY attacked Obama's children:

Rush has pulled the imitation "gag" a few times.

309 Gus  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 9:44:17pm

Let you in on a little secret. I think Glenn Greenwald actually did pretty good on the Maher show. They all did.

310 Interesting Times  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 9:47:31pm

re: #303 prairiefire

Somehow I get the feeling the note is a red herring. I could be wrong.

That's my gut feeling too, that this may be someone who wanted to murder her for other reasons & tried to make it look like a hate crime so they'd be less likely to get caught. Don't get me wrong, it's a senseless and horrible crime in any case, but somehow, the thought it really was motivated by bigotry is all the more terrifying.

311 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 9:47:38pm

There. I was inspired to post a page.

Just decided to add some.

312 Kragar  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 9:49:52pm

Heh, the tea party rally today is described as having several hundred people attend.

The atheist rally had several thousand attend.

Make of it what you will.

313 Gus  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 9:52:51pm

re: #312 Kragar

Heh, the tea party rally today is described as having several hundred people attend.

The atheist rally had several thousand attend.

Make of it what you will.

It's these damn hippies. These damn longhairs. These anti-establishment Ne'er-do-wels with their college educations and sandals. Those are the ones that are destroying the fabric of this great republic. By God.

[Goldwater voice.]

//

314 jaunte  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 9:53:55pm

Buy Gold!

315 jaunte  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 9:56:50pm

re: #237 goddamnedfrank

The whole video was a warning about the dangers of institutional censorship. He never mentioned anything about not speaking up if you have an opinion about something, quite the opposite.

316 Kragar  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 9:56:57pm

re: #314 jaunte

Buy Gold!

They found some in Hong Kong a few years back.

318 jaunte  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 9:58:45pm

re: #316 Kragar

At the end of the piece William Gibson linked to, the writer throws out the thought that Fort Knox is actually full of tungsten. That's a little Alex Jonesey for me.

319 jaunte  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 9:59:44pm

re: #317 Gus

I used to see them at Armadillo World Headquarters in Austin.

320 Kragar  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 10:00:02pm

re: #318 jaunte

At the end of the piece William Gibson linked to, the writer throws out the thought that Fort Knox is actually full of tungsten. That's a little Alex Jonesey for me.

Eh, I'm just waiting on tulip bulbs to peak again.

321 Gus  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 10:00:56pm

re: #319 jaunte

I used to see them at Armadillo World Headquarters in Austin.

Did ya? Cool then I picked the right band. Was thinking about a couple of others. Panama Red.

322 sagehen  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 10:02:20pm

re: #49 windupbird is in the gravity well

Was Rob Halford in fact the Ripper? Nocturnal and Nameless? One has their doubts!

No, but I have it on good authority Johnny Cash did, in fact, shoot a man in Reno just to watch him die.

323 Gus  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 10:03:41pm

Breaking!

324 Kragar  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 10:07:01pm

re: #323 Gus

Speaking for the Republicans was Texas Gov. Rick Perry, who poked fun at his gaffes during an unsuccessful run for the GOP presidential nomination.

He also had fun at the expense of the remaining candidates, saying: "The weakest Republican field in history, and they kicked my butt..."

325 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 10:07:25pm

re: #319 jaunte

I used to see them at Armadillo World Headquarters in Austin.

There's an Armadillo World Headquarters? Is this where all the armadillos get their orders from?

326 jaunte  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 10:08:10pm

re: #325 SanFranciscoZionist

Sadly, it's no more, and now they just wander out onto the highways.

327 freetoken  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 10:08:16pm

re: #318 jaunte

The SilverDoctors article seems to make an importance out of the bars passing an "xrf scan", which only highlights the problem of people using tools without knowledge of how or why they work. XRF is simply a photon emissions technique and thus could only be useful on metals for analyzing surfaces, and anyone using it to check gold bars ought to be aware that it's foolish to think that passing an XRF test actually tests the whole bar.

328 Gus  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 10:09:55pm

re: #324 Kragar

Poor ol' pointy boots. I had so many high hopes for him. ;)

//

329 Kragar  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 10:10:36pm

re: #327 freetoken

The SilverDoctors article seems to make an importance out of the bars passing an "xrf scan", which only highlights the problem of people using tools without knowledge of how or why they work. XRF is simply a photon emissions technique and thus could only be useful on metals for analyzing surfaces, and anyone using it to check gold bars ought to be aware that it's foolish to think that passing an XRF test actually tests the whole bar.

Yup. The reason they use tungsten cores is because it mimics the mass of gold, so it will pass surface inspections. You'll only know for sure if you drill or melt it down.

330 freetoken  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 10:14:57pm

re: #329 Kragar

Yup. The reason they use tungsten cores is because it mimics the mass of gold, so it will pass surface inspections. You'll only know for sure if you drill or melt it down.

The density of W is close enough to Au to pull it off. However, their electrical characteristics (as well as nuclear characteristics) are quite different. I suspect some bright material scientist (or hundreds, working for the Treasury...) have figured out ways to test bars.

331 goddamnedfrank  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 10:15:34pm

re: #315 jaunte

The whole video was a warning about the dangers of institutional censorship. He never mentioned anything about not speaking up if you have an opinion about something, quite the opposite.

Exactly, which makes Killgore's condescending response to Obdicut in #184 simply pathological. I find it incredibly infuriating to be lied to in such a naked, pointless fashion and it's simply impossible to believe Trout was honestly mistaken about the content of Hitch's speech. He got everything backwards, completely wrong, upside down and to what purpose?

Deeply troubling.

332 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 10:15:41pm

re: #330 freetoken

The density of W is close enough to Au to pull it off. However, their electrical characteristics (as well as nuclear characteristics) are quite different. I suspect some bright material scientist (or hundreds, working for the Treasury...) have figured out ways to test bars.

Wolfram!!!

(I love that name. I always picture an 80's heavy metal rock band.)

333 jaunte  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 10:17:20pm

re: #331 goddamnedfrank

He may be making a kind of slippery slope argument, in that if enough people get outraged about a certain kind of speech they'll urge government censorship, but I'm guessing because he's not saying.

334 Kronocide  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 10:17:32pm

Reihl seems to have finally found Trayvon Martin's FB page.

335 goddamnedfrank  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 10:20:18pm

re: #333 jaunte

He may be making a kind of slippery slope argument, in that if enough people get outraged about a certain kind of speech they'll urge government censorship, but I'm guessing because he's not saying.

Still doesn't explain his #184 response to Obdicut, in which he presents the polar opposite of truth as fact.

336 Prononymous, rogue demon hunter  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 10:20:23pm

re: #327 freetoken

Learn basic science? That sounds like too much thinking! I'd rather just connect all these dots someone else labeled for me.

*connects the dots*

*stands back*

Woah! Bozo the clown is the head of the global conspiracy!

337 freetoken  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 10:23:40pm

re: #336 Prononymous, rogue demon hunter

People seem to forget that the Secret Service's original duty was not to protect the President, but rather to protect the Money. The government has thousands of material scientists and related experts working for it. Lots of smart people, and I have quite a bit of confidence that they could tell you what is in Ft. Knox.

338 jaunte  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 10:24:47pm

re: #337 freetoken

That seems more likely than that a random website has stumbled upon the Troof.

339 Lidane  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 10:27:50pm

Thinking about coming up with a way to accommodate Pages that aren't anything more than links and quoted text, and the easiest thing in the world just crossed my mind -- a Twitter hashtag.

The Pages are already a recognized feature of LGF, so separating them or changing the name or anything would be a bad idea, but a Twitter feature would be easy to do, I think. If a new hashtag was created and a livestream for that tag was on the front page, folks could link to articles and blog posts quickly and easily without going through the effort of a full Page.

Granted, there would be morons and dipshits trying to flood the tag with their stuff, but Twitter feeds move so quickly that it wouldn't really matter in the long run.

340 Kragar  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 10:28:18pm

re: #338 jaunte

That seems more likely than that a random website has stumbled upon the Troof.

ITS A CONSPIRACY!!!
/

341 Gus  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 10:28:38pm

I will say this about the whole Rush Limbaugh thing. Let me start by saying it's become too much of a distraction. Obama's not going to get reelected on this whole premise (I would add alone). But there's much work to be done this year. Talent and time is being wasted by many progressives who really should be working on Obama's campaign and registering voters.

342 Gus  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 10:28:58pm

Paisajes de Catamarca - Los Chalchaleros

Youtube Video
343 freetoken  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 10:30:30pm

re: #338 jaunte

That seems more likely than that a random website has stumbled upon the Troof.

TUNGSTEN TROOF!!

344 Kronocide  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 10:34:06pm

re: #333 jaunte

He may be making a kind of slippery slope argument, in that if enough people get outraged about a certain kind of speech they'll urge government censorship, but I'm guessing because he's not saying.

Nobody is calling on taking Rush off the air. It's just been a weird couple of weeks on this issue.

345 jaunte  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 10:34:20pm

re: #342 Gus

A rodent species discovered in La Rioja Province, Argentina, Salinoctomys loschalchalerosorum (the Chalchalero viscacha rat), from the family Octodontidae, was named after the group.[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

This may be a musical first.

346 Gus  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 10:35:20pm

re: #345 jaunte

This may be a musical first.

Hero rats! It's a miracle. //

347 Gus  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 10:38:12pm

Summer!

348 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 10:38:30pm

re: #344 Kronocide

Nobody is calling on taking Rush off the air. It's just been a weird couple of weeks on this issue.

I think Rush should be taken off the air. Not by the govt, of course. By clear channel, if they had any conscience.

349 Kronocide  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 10:39:12pm

re: #348 Liberal Entity

I think Rush should be taken off the air. Not by the govt, of course. By clear channel, if they had any conscience.

FASCIST!

350 Lidane  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 10:39:38pm

LGF Irrelevance Watch:

ABL: #TrayvonMartin: Breitbrat Dan Riehl’s Racism Is Hanging Out All Over the Place

Balloon Juice: Very Stupid People

Huffington Post: The Blaze, Site Founded By Glenn Beck, Insinuates That Slain Teen Trayvon Martin Was Troublemaker

351 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 10:40:04pm

re: #349 Kronocide

FASCIST!

Well, Jonah Goldberg did say we're all fascists now, so what gives.

352 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 10:41:55pm

re: #334 Kronocide

Reihl seems to have finally found Trayvon Martin's FB page.

A moving page.

I wonder if a photo from the stream will be exploited by the racists.

353 freetoken  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 10:43:47pm

re: #348 Liberal Entity

Clear Channel is in the business of taking money from whomever. In classic American big-business fashion, they aren't known for their conscience but instead their bottom line.

The radio spectrum is a common good. Companies (today anyway, if not historically) have to pay to rent their location on the spectrum. They pay us, the people, through our Government, to occupy that portion of the spectrum.

As far as I am concerned, Clear Channel is not living up to their social responsibilities, by broadcasting hate talk.

354 Gus  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 10:44:17pm

re: #350 Lidane

LGF Irrelevance Watch:

ABL: #TrayvonMartin: Breitbrat Dan Riehl’s Racism Is Hanging Out All Over the Place

Balloon Juice: Very Stupid People

Huffington Post: The Blaze, Site Founded By Glenn Beck, Insinuates That Slain Teen Trayvon Martin Was Troublemaker

Read and Tweeted two of those today. I like ABL's write up. Pretty cool.

356 ozbloke  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 10:47:05pm

re: #289 Obdicut

Obdicut,

In Australia, we have our own Sandman.

Here see if it helps.

Your text to link...

357 Gus  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 10:47:18pm

This is no terror ground.
Or place for the rage
No broken hearts, white wash lies.
Just a taste for the truth
Perfect taste,
choice and meaning
A look into
your eyes

358 jaunte  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 10:47:34pm

re: #355 Liberal Entity

Ack!

359 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 10:48:16pm

re: #358 jaunte

Ack!

Is that Santorum all over his upper lip?

360 prairiefire  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 10:51:56pm

re: #356 ozbloke

Funny!

361 prairiefire  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 10:58:41pm

"The Sandman and Flacco ~ The Deflating Gap"

Youtube Video
362 ozbloke  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 11:06:06pm

re: #360 prairiefire

Sandman and his flaws.

Youtube Video


This guy was the head of the Reserve Bank of Australia.

Youtube Video
363 Tigger2005  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 11:14:53pm

re: #77 Interesting Times

It's the same old "both sides" blather. I can spot it from a mile away. And to anyone who'd use that idiotic argument, I say:

When one person is lying, and the other tells the truth, there is no middle ground.

I'm stealing that.

364 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 11:15:08pm

re: #333 jaunte

He may be making a kind of slippery slope argument, in that if enough people get outraged about a certain kind of speech they'll urge government censorship, but I'm guessing because he's not saying.

I'm not seeing that, though. Whether speech is commercially rewarded does not have to do with whether it is free.

365 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 11:15:17pm

re: #334 Kronocide

Reihl seems to have finally found Trayvon Martin's FB page.

Dare I even ask?

366 Mich-again  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 11:25:38pm

Charles is always clanging on pots and pans while the wingnut philharmonic orchestra is performing a symphony..

367 freetoken  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 11:28:20pm

re: #364 SanFranciscoZionist

I'm not seeing that, though. Whether speech is commercially rewarded does not have to do with whether it is free.

This.

368 freetoken  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 11:36:50pm

Atheism gone wild: Over at Jerry Coyne's place, he (or another writer) are lamenting that the NYT refused to print Geller's anti-Islam advert:

New York Times intimidated into suspending anti-Islam ad

The writer seems clueless that Geller's purpose is to start another religious war, with her religion (a nationalistic ultra-partisan version of Abrahamic religious practices) beating out "Islam".

Some of the commenters fortunately pointed out the true nature of Geller, but too many of the militant atheists are so caught up in their anti-religion campaign to notice that Geller isn't an ally.

369 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 11:41:47pm

re: #368 freetoken

Atheism gone wild: Over at Jerry Coyne's place, he (or another writer) are lamenting that the NYT refused to print Geller's anti-Islam advert:

New York Times intimidated into suspending anti-Islam ad

The writer seems clueless that Geller's purpose is to start another religious war, with her religion (a nationalistic ultra-partisan version of Abrahamic religious practices) beating out "Islam".

Some of the commenters fortunately pointed out the true nature of Geller, but too many of the militant atheists are so caught up in their anti-religion campaign to notice that Geller isn't an ally.

ATHEISTS OF AMERICA! PAM GELLER IS NOT AN ALLY!

(Putting down the bullhorn now.)

370 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 11:46:18pm

re: #368 freetoken

Yeah, that's just stupid.

371 Kragar  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 11:49:15pm

re: #368 freetoken

Atheism gone wild: Over at Jerry Coyne's place, he (or another writer) are lamenting that the NYT refused to print Geller's anti-Islam advert:

New York Times intimidated into suspending anti-Islam ad

The writer seems clueless that Geller's purpose is to start another religious war, with her religion (a nationalistic ultra-partisan version of Abrahamic religious practices) beating out "Islam".

Some of the commenters fortunately pointed out the true nature of Geller, but too many of the militant atheists are so caught up in their anti-religion campaign to notice that Geller isn't an ally.

Kragar's Law: The enemy of your enemy can also be a total dick.

372 prairiefire  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 11:49:21pm

Former VP Dick Cheney recovering from heart transplant surgery:[Link: www.huffingtonpost.com...]

373 goddamnedfrank  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 11:51:07pm

re: #370 Liberal Entity

Yeah, that's just stupid.

Not to mention that Pamela just ripped off FFRF's advertising creative wholesale, and not as a legally protected parody.

374 Mich-again  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 11:57:40pm

re: #368 freetoken

Some of the commenters fortunately pointed out the true nature of Geller, but too many of the militant atheists are so caught up in their anti-religion campaign to notice that Geller isn't an ally.

It reminds me a bit of when Charles and LGF'ers turned on her and Bob Spencer for cozying up to the Euro white supremacists. Those two said they needed all the help they could get to oppose Islamists and they weren't weren't going to refuse help from anyone including white supremacists.

375 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 11:59:35pm

The line between a critique of a religion and scapegoating is fine, but it is there. Blessed are those who know where it is, for theirs is something or other.

376 Kragar  Sat, Mar 24, 2012 11:59:44pm

re: #374 Mich-again

It reminds me a bit of when Charles and LGF'ers turned on her and Bob Spencer for cozying up to the Euro white supremacists. Those two said they needed all the help they could get to oppose Islamists and they weren't weren't going to refuse help from anyone including white supremacists.

"I'm going to go form my own counter-jihad... with hookers and blackjack. You know what? Forget the counter jihad."

377 freetoken  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 12:00:59am

re: #374 Mich-again

Once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny.

378 freetoken  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 12:02:46am

re: #374 Mich-again

Once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny.

379 freetoken  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 12:03:50am

re: #374 Mich-again

Once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny.

380 freetoken  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 12:07:05am

re: #374 Mich-again

Once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny.

381 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 12:08:06am

re: #375 Liberal Entity

There's a fine line between a critique of a religion and scapegoating, but it is there. Blessed are those who know where it is, for theirs is something or other.

'...for theirs is eternal grief from people who neither know nor care.'

382 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 12:09:15am

BTW, in regard to the recent discussion of Paul. I've been reading some old posts by Dr. Richard Carrier these days, and found this interesting bit. Seems like the passage about keeping women silent is an interpolation.

And in fact we know this is how the passage originally read, because in some manuscripts this is exactly what Paul says: the insertion about the women is moved to the end of the chapter. Which means (a) it was understood to be a separate unit (in thought and meaning, grammatically and rhetorically) and (b) the "challenge" question (what some bible translations render as beginning with the exclamation "What!?") was understood by many scribes and readers as directed at those promoting "confusion" rather than "peace," not the issue of letting women speak.

[...]

In other words, the version I have just proposed, of what Paul originally said and what it meant, is exactly the version we find in some actual manuscripts of the Bible. The final clincher is that we know there were once manuscripts that didn't contain the interpolated verses at all, which confirms they were interpolated. This evidence is presented in Philip Payne's article "Fuldensis, Sigla for Variants in Vaticanus, and 1 Cor 14:34-5" in New Testament Studies 41 (1995): pp. 240-50.

[...]

Payne shows that scribal marks in one of our earliest manuscripts of this letter indicate the passage was known not to appear in some manuscripts available to the copier, and that we have an explicit representation of this knowledge in a later manuscript prepared and supervised by Bishop Victor of Capua in A.D. 546, who ordered a rewrite of this section to omit verses 34-35, in the bottom margin of Codex Fuldensis. Bishop Victor's other corrections of the text in Codex Fuldensis routinely reflect his awareness of manuscripts with the readings he advised. Therefore Victor knew of a manuscript lacking vv. 34-35. So there once were manuscripts proving vv. 34-35 an interpolation, including some that must have been composed in the 3rd century, before almost all of the manuscripts we even now have.

383 freetoken  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 12:12:17am

re: #374 Mich-again

Once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny.

384 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 12:14:15am

re: #376 Kragar

"In fact, forget the counter-jihad and the black jack! Ahhh screw the whole thing."

385 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 12:15:04am

BTW, in regard to the recent discussion of Paul. I've been reading some old posts by Dr. Richard Carrier these days, and found this interesting bit. Seems like the passage about keeping women silent is an interpolation.

And in fact we know this is how the passage originally read, because in some manuscripts this is exactly what Paul says: the insertion about the women is moved to the end of the chapter. Which means (a) it was understood to be a separate unit (in thought and meaning, grammatically and rhetorically) and (b) the "challenge" question (what some bible translations render as beginning with the exclamation "What!?") was understood by many scribes and readers as directed at those promoting "confusion" rather than "peace," not the issue of letting women speak.

[...]

In other words, the version I have just proposed, of what Paul originally said and what it meant, is exactly the version we find in some actual manuscripts of the Bible. The final clincher is that we know there were once manuscripts that didn't contain the interpolated verses at all, which confirms they were interpolated. This evidence is presented in Philip Payne's article "Fuldensis, Sigla for Variants in Vaticanus, and 1 Cor 14:34-5" in New Testament Studies 41 (1995): pp. 240-50.

[...]

Payne shows that scribal marks in one of our earliest manuscripts of this letter indicate the passage was known not to appear in some manuscripts available to the copier, and that we have an explicit representation of this knowledge in a later manuscript prepared and supervised by Bishop Victor of Capua in A.D. 546, who ordered a rewrite of this section to omit verses 34-35, in the bottom margin of Codex Fuldensis. Bishop Victor's other corrections of the text in Codex Fuldensis routinely reflect his awareness of manuscripts with the readings he advised. Therefore Victor knew of a manuscript lacking vv. 34-35. So there once were manuscripts proving vv. 34-35 an interpolation, including some that must have been composed in the 3rd century, before almost all of the manuscripts we even now have.

386 freetoken  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 12:15:36am

re: #374 Mich-again

Once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny.

387 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 12:16:40am

re: #376 Kragar

"In fact, forget the counter-jihad and the black jack! Ahhh screw the whole thing."

388 Tigger2005  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 12:16:45am

Magical balance fairy writing from a Kansas City-based writer:

Let’s reach out for common ground

389 Tigger2005  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 12:19:59am

Magical balance fairy writing from a Kansas City-based writer:

Let’s reach out for common ground

390 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 12:22:39am

LOL.

391 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 12:23:32am

re: #377 freetoken

You

re: #378 freetoken

don't

re: #380 freetoken

say?

re: #383 freetoken

:sigh: Fucking Matrix.

392 freetoken  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 12:26:06am

The server burped?

393 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 12:27:00am

re: #392 freetoken

A Hamster Wheel Bearing ceased.

394 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 12:27:34am

re: #392 freetoken

The server burped?

Or the reality itself?

395 freetoken  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 12:30:52am

re: #385 Liberal Entity

I've had the Carrier article attacking Ehrman open for a few days now. I think Carrier is a bit too touchy and over-reacting to what is essentially a HuffPo puff piece (that was Ehrman's claim that there really was a guy named Jesus from Nazareth) aimed at stirring up comments (and selling books.) Carrier himself has a book coming, so maybe he's trying to push the controversy forward to keep the heat.

396 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 12:33:21am

re: #395 freetoken

Of all the mythicists, Carrier is the only one to whose opinion I would listen with seriousness, whether accepting it or not. And I like his approach. He explicitly says that laymen should indeed go with the consensus of the experts in the field (i.e. that Jesus was historical), while he is challenging the consensus from "within", and the results may or may not be in after several decades.

397 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 12:42:11am

re: #395 freetoken

I should also say that upon re-reading, Ehrman's piece was a bit too shrill/arrogant, especially bringing up the Holocaust denial in the beginning, as if there was any analogy between the veritable mountain of evidence for the Holocaust and the quite puny (though also quite real) pile of evidence for historicity of Jesus.

398 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 12:55:50am

re: #397 Liberal Entity

Uhh...

399 freetoken  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 12:58:07am

re: #397 Liberal Entity

Ehrman is pushing books, on HuffPo. I don't expect much from an advertisement article like that.

400 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 1:02:01am

re: #398 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks

Uhh...

Youtube Video
401 The Ghost of a Flea  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 1:08:40am

re: #400 Liberal Entity

Man I freaking love Bulgakov.

402 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 1:09:06am

re: #400 Liberal Entity

I always suspected he was a freakin' commie.
/

403 The Ghost of a Flea  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 1:12:59am

The Supreme Court of India has just struck down the colonial-era laws banning gay sex.

As much as I love India, I've always been aware of the nation's conservatism around sexual issues (which extends beyond the Victorians...who suck in many ways but aren't entitled to all the blame). This happened faster than I thought and I'm ecstatic.

404 researchok  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 1:21:11am

Morning, all

405 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 1:22:18am

re: #404 researchok

yo

406 researchok  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 1:27:44am

re: #405 Liberal Entity

I'm enjoying my coffee

407 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 1:31:03am

Early Morning Wisdom

from George Takei via my fb

408 AK-47%  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 1:33:58am

re: #403 The Ghost of a Flea

The Supreme Court of India has just struck down the colonial-era laws banning gay sex.

As much as I love India, I've always been aware of the nation's conservatism around sexual issues (which extends beyond the Victorians...who suck in many ways but aren't entitled to all the blame). This happened faster than I thought and I'm ecstatic.

AFAIK, the Hindu nationalist party is extremely socially conservative, the attitudes are not going to change tht quickly.

409 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 1:35:37am

re: #408 Second Amendment Renegation

AFAIK, the Hindu nationalist party is extremely socially conservative, the attitudes are not going to change tht quickly.

No, but it will keep the justice system free of unnecessary prosecutions.

410 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 1:36:47am

re: #374 Mich-again

It reminds me a bit of when Charles and LGF'ers turned on her and Bob Spencer for cozying up to the Euro white supremacists. Those two said they needed all the help they could get to oppose Islamists and they weren't weren't going to refuse help from anyone including white supremacists.

The enemy of my enemy is not necessarily my friend.

411 AK-47%  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 1:39:38am

re: #410 ggt

The enemy of my enemy is not necessarily my friend.

unless you have no other friends in the world...

412 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 1:40:28am

re: #411 Second Amendment Renegation

unless you have no other friends in the world...

ah! good point.

413 freetoken  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 1:42:32am
MP3 Audio
414 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 1:45:27am

Have a great early morning all!

415 researchok  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 2:03:16am

re: #413 freetoken

They just don't make em like that anymore.

I want a scotch, neat. and a pack of smokes.

416 Obdicut  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 2:58:15am

re: #124 Killgore Trout

Yeah, so you completely misrepresented this video when you claimed he didn't talk about government censorship. He did. That was the entire subject of the speech; he was in Canada to speak about a censorship law there.

I guess you got mixed up because he talks about how important it is to listen to and consider outrageous opinions like Holocaust denial so that we can establish why we know what we know. But it's a rather insane mistake of you to make, since one of his first examples is David Irving being imprisoned in Austria, by the government. The context of the speech is about censorship law in Canada, and that's obvious when he talks about 'who could be the censor', and refers, again, to what he sees as the silly law he's talking about. He never, ever says that outrageous opinions shouldn't be met by outrage-- in fact, later in the video, talking about religious ideas, he says they should be met with contempt and ridicule.

Did you actually watch that video? If so, how did you miss that the main thrust of his speech is about government censorship?

How did you miss that Hitchens clearly says that the pogroms against Jews stemmed from a particular set of words, a particular idea in the Bible, that idea and those words being appealing to our mammalian selves?

417 abolitionist  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 3:32:55am

A recent Endgame episode, Mr. Black, begins with Balligan's exasperation over a crossword puzzle in the daily paper. He concludes "the crossword editors have forgotten how to spell".

As will become apparent, consequences of small errors are of great concern to Mr. Black, too. Two clips:
Rules to the game
Warrior vs warrior

It's one of my favorite episodes so far.

How is this relevent? I believe Mr. Zimmerman and others in Sanford PD made a series of errors too --some small, some not so small.

418 Kragar  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 3:38:08am

Texas billionaire explains why he has given $18 million to Republican Super PACs

Texas industrialist billionaire Harold Simmons has injected more than $18 million to Republican Super PACs in the last months with the primary goal of ousting President Obama – no matter who the GOP candidate is.

In a rare interview with The Wall Street Journal, Simmons, known for been rather hermetic, explained the reasons behind the cash contributions that have won him the title of the largest single donor in the 2012 election cycle.

“Any of these Republicans would make a better president than that socialist, Obama,” Simmons said. “Obama is the most dangerous American alive…because he would eliminate free enterprise in this country.”

Proof that one can make money while being a complete fucking idiot.

419 Obdicut  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 4:02:14am

re: #418 Kragar

Texas billionaire explains why he has given $18 million to Republican Super PACs

Proof that one can make money while being a complete fucking idiot.

Being a fucking idiot in many cases helps you make a lot of money.

420 Aye Pod  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 4:52:18am

re: #189 goddamnedfrank

At no point does Hitch say or imply that speech should not be combatted with speech or that it shouldn't have consequences. Rush has been heard, now those who heard him have an equivalent right to respond in kind. This isn't censorship, it isn't even censorship-esque, it's all free speech. Hitch, on the other hand, is condemning the proscriptive banning of speech by governments and you're dishonestly conflating that with private action. You've been doing this for some time now, completely oblivious to the glaring, obvious difference.

Exactly. The video he posted doesn't support his argument at all. Hitchens even says near the beginning of his speech that people are free to criticise him or even abuse him - "at their own risk". Killgore wants Limbaugh to be able to slander and abuse Sandra Fluke at no risk whatsoever.

421 kirkspencer  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 4:52:38am

re: #385 Liberal Entity

BTW, in regard to the recent discussion of Paul. I've been reading some old posts by Dr. Richard Carrier these days, and found this interesting bit. Seems like the passage about keeping women silent is an interpolation.

There are many reasons I don't agree with biblical literalists. This is one. The frequently heard (and meant) statement that "If the King James version was good enough for Paul it's good enough for me" is another.

422 Aye Pod  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 5:08:25am

re: #414 ggt

Have a great early morning all!

Another hot sunny day in Scotland. It still looks like winter with the bare trees and all, but it feels like a good day in summer. Freakin weird.

423 Obdicut  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 5:25:39am

George Zimmerman's Neighborhood Watch Notes

KNOW YOUR GUN RIGHTS: the great state of Florida has granted us many liberties, and we need to take advantage of them. Remember that you are well within your rights to draw and fire should a stranger commit any of the following actions within the community:

breakdancing without permit, cardboard box

giving a weak, sexually threatening handshake

pretending to text as they walk by

exhibiting hostile belt or hat adjustment

wearing of a backwards baseball cap: the bandit mask of the 21st century

carrying Skittles and iced tea: key ingredients in the dangerous street drug known as "flunk"

exhibiting aggressive, unapologetic blackness

424 Tigger2005  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 5:45:01am

re: #396 Liberal Entity

Of all the mythicists, Carrier is the only one to whose opinion I would listen with seriousness, whether accepting it or not. And I like his approach. He explicitly says that laymen should indeed go with the consensus of the experts in the field (i.e. that Jesus was historical), while he is challenging the consensus from "within", and the results may or may not be in after several decades.

You haven't read Doherty?

425 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 5:49:51am

re: #421 kirkspencer

The frequently heard (and meant) statement that "If the King James version was good enough for Paul it's good enough for me" is another.

That frequently heard statement is a joke. Not even the most hardened KJV-onlyists like Ruckman think KJV was used before 1611.

426 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 5:50:57am

re: #424 Tigger2005

I tried, many years ago, but there was too much water.

427 What, me worry?  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 5:54:41am

re: #268 talon_262

Don't think he dissed Amy Carter, but I know he definitely dissed Chelsea Clinton when she was a teenager.

Good morning ya'll.

Just to correct this, Rush did insult Amy, but she was in college. Still, there's no doubt in my mind that he's a woman hater.

[Link: mediamatters.org...]

Limbaugh then related the story of how he once apologized for calling Amy Carter, the daughter of President Carter, "the most unattractive presidential daughter in the history of the country." He added: "I apologize again. I -- that's the third time the crew makes a mistake by showing you Millie the dog when I intended to show you Chelsea Clinton, and then I followed with that terrible story."

So in his apology about Amy, he calls Chelsea a dog... again. I don't believe that was any kind of error as he claims, because he never shuts up about it.

You know, when my radio show started in August of 1988, a presidential campaign then, and Amy Carter was protesting everything American while at Brown University. And I didn't, of course, like that. I didn't like her protesting everything American, and I made a remark on my show that I've now since apologized for and I've taken it back; I didn't mean it. I said, You know, she may be the most unattractive presidential daughter in the history of the country.'

(Laughter)

LIMBAUGH: Well, there was outrage. No, there was. I mean, there was just plenty -- my -- my mom called me at home that night. She said, Son, you know, you -- if you're going to be serious about this, you can't make fun of the way people look. You're not supposed to -- you're not -- you can talk about how you disagree with Amy Carter. You can talk about how you disagree with her politics and you think she's doing some bad things, but she can't help the way she looks, and you can't -- you shouldn't make fun of that. And, besides, you forgot Margaret Truman.'

So he ends every apology by calling some other woman ugly. This is a man who clearly does not own a mirror.

428 The Left  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 5:55:44am

re: #427 Madge

I love your avatar!

429 Tigger2005  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 5:56:55am

re: #426 Liberal Entity

I tried, many years ago, but there was too much water.

I'm a little thick-headed this a.m. so not sure what that means, but I was pretty convinced of the mythicist case by reading Doherty (who Richard Carrier has given good reviews to). You can tell he has an agenda, but his research, evidence and arguments can't be easily dismissed.

430 The Left  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 5:57:13am

re: #428 Millicent Islam

I love your avatar!

oh, and you're right about Rush, of course.

431 Killgore Trout  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 5:59:11am

re: #416 Obdicut

If I said that he never mentions government censorship I was wrong and stand corrected. However, the theme of his speech is censorship and free speech in the broader context which includes many forms including government, self censorship, fear, intimidation, etc. it's a false talking point that you aren't against free speech by trying to silence political opponents just because you aren't using government force to accomplish the goal. Censorship comes in many forms, not all of them from the government.

432 What, me worry?  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 6:00:53am

re: #428 Millicent Islam

I love your avatar!

lol Love your name!

433 kirkspencer  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 6:03:54am

re: #425 Liberal Entity

That frequently heard statement is a joke. Not even the most hardened KJV-onlyists like Ruckman think KJV was used before 1611.

How much would you like to wager on that?

No, I can't prove it so it'd be a wasted wager. Instead, I'm going to remind you that these are the people who believe the earth is only 6000 years old, and that Jesus was a white man. These are the people who in all seriousness are making the conservative bible, who fully agree with everything you find at the creation discovery museum.

In this, you are a victim of Poe's corollary: It is impossible for an act of Fundamentalism to be made that someone won't mistake for a parody.

Yes, there are people who do, indeed, believe that the King James version is the One True version with the old testament translate by and new testament written by Christ's apostles to include Paul. They are not joking.

(As a nod, yes, some are. They still believe the KJV is the One True Version, but they grant it was translated under the tenure of King James.)

434 Aye Pod  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 6:04:50am

re: #426 Liberal Entity

I tried, many years ago, but there was too much water.

Not always easy to find a dry spot to read in eh?

435 What, me worry?  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 6:05:36am

re: #430 Millicent Islam

oh, and you're right about Rush, of course.

I went to bed after I brought it up last night so missed that others already covered it. I hate when that happens.

How are things with you guys?

436 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 6:07:41am

re: #429 Tigger2005

I tried the Jesus Puzzle. However, putting an argument in form of a novel is not scholarly, so unsure of its value and of the author's expertise, I dropped it. I will gladly read Carrier's book on the historicity when it is out, since I expect it to be in a normative scholarly form (as the rest of his serious works) and he has the necessary expertise to take his arguments seriously.

437 Obdicut  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 6:07:52am

re: #431 Killgore Trout

If I said that he never mentions government censorship I was wrong and stand corrected.

What do you mean 'if'?

re: #184 Killgore Trout

You still haven't watched his speech or if you have you haven't understood it. He never mentions government censorship, he's talking about voluntary self censorship. Seriously, dude. Intentionally not understanding an idea or the meaning of a word is not a fruitful debate technique. It's frustrating to your opponent and they will eventually go away and ignore you. You can count that as a victory but intentional ignorance isn't going to persuade anyone who doesn't already agree with you.

Lecturing me about intentionally not understanding something while you completely misrepresent it-- that's fucking nuts. It's patronizing, weird, and seems almost intentionally making fun of yourself.

However, the theme of his speech is censorship and free speech in the broader context which includes many forms including government, self censorship, fear, intimidation, etc.

No, it's not. The theme of his speech is protecting the RIGHT to speak, and he never once, not a single goddamn time, says anything about any other form of censorship.

it's a false talking point that you aren't against free speech by trying to silence political opponents just because you aren't using government force to accomplish the goal.

No, it's not. Free speech does not mean that someone should have a platform for that speech. Pretending it does-- simply asserting it over and over-- is not an argument.

I completely agree with Hitchens that offensive and outrageous speech is useful in that it forces us to examine why we think we know what we know. That is his one, sole point in that speech about the virtues of outrageous speech. He clearly, obviously is not saying that pretending that holocaust denial should therefore not be attacked, or that people espousing holocaust denial should be given broad platforms to speak from. He is talking about it ONLY in terms of the government criminalizing that speech-- about Irving being imprisoned for that speech.

Again: Conflating governmental censorship with non-governmental censorship is stupid. I'm glad to see Hitchens doesn't do that in his speech. I have no idea where you think he does-- feel free to use, you know, actual examples, since obviously your general understanding of the video was completely goddamn faulty when you thought he didn't even mention government censorship and it is the point of the entire goddamn speech.

438 Tigger2005  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 6:10:09am

re: #436 Liberal Entity

I tried the Jesus Puzzle. However, putting an argument in form of a novel is not scholarly, so unsure of its value and of the author's expertise, I dropped it. I will gladly read Carrier's book on the historicity when it is out, since I expect it to be in a normative scholarly form (as the rest of his serious works) and he has the necessary expertise to take his arguments seriously.

The Jesus Puzzle isn't a novel. However, Doherty makes his argument in a much more scholarly fashion on his Web site. He was published in the Journal of Higher Criticism.

439 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 6:11:48am

re: #433 kirkspencer

If you're claiming that someone somewhere believes it, no problem. I doubt very much, however, that this is indeed an "often" heard statement, as you imply. The standard position of KJV-onlyism is not that "it was good enough for Paul". However, you're welcome to show some verifiable data on this issue.

440 Obdicut  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 6:12:26am

re: #437 Obdicut

Hitchens has, on many other occasions, talked about the perils of self-censorship, the neutering of the press by refusal to engage with contentious subjects. He's written quite well on that. Linking to one of those peices of writing might have done you some good, Killgore, but instead you chose a speech given about a censorship law, using examples of government censorship, in order to support your point. Really freaking bizarre.

And where he talks about self-censorship, he is not bemoaning people self-censoring the output of lies and complete goddamn garbage. He's not complaining that misrepresentations, half-truths, and propaganda are being kept out of the public view, but that satire and valuable commentary are.

Hitchens would absolutely defend the right of Limbaugh to say what he did, but you have provided no support, not a single goddamn shred, to support the idea that Hitchens would think that Rush had the right to escape criticism for doing so, or that his ideas lacked the power to have ill effects, or that it wouldn't be right to meet his speech with contempt and ridicule.

441 Aye Pod  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 6:12:29am

re: #435 Madge

I went to bed after I brought it up last night so missed that others already covered it. I hate when that happens.

How are things with you guys?

Hi Madge! Just enjoying the rare weather here right now, and being amused at the antics of our cat -she has developed a sock fetish - tries to steal them from you and then nurses them and cries over them. It's like she imagines that the socks are her children.

442 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 6:13:44am

re: #325 SanFranciscoZionist

There's an Armadillo World Headquarters? Is this where all the armadillos get their orders from?

Not anymore. Think "Fillmore Auditorium", only smaller and very Austin flavored.

443 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 6:14:44am

re: #438 Tigger2005

The Jesus Puzzle isn't a novel.

The book entitled "THE JESUS PUZZLE: A Novel About the Greatest Question of Our Time", which is filled with standard novel narrative, including dialogues, and which is described by the author as "a contemporary novel with a background plot about the state of secularism vs. fundamentalism at the end of the 20th century" is not a novel? Okay.

As for JHC, it's not exactly a mainstream venture.

444 Obdicut  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 6:17:40am

re: #443 Liberal Entity

Maybe this is the problem?

Doherty has used the title "The Jesus Puzzle" for four different works. In 1997, the Journal of Higher Criticism published his article, "The Jesus Puzzle: Pieces in a Puzzle of Christian Origins."[3] In 1999, his book The Jesus Puzzle: Did Christianity Begin with a Mythical Christ? was published by Canadian Humanist Publications.[4] He uses the title for a website where he publishes additional commentary and responses to reviews and criticisms of his work.[5] He also used the title for a novel which he provides for download on his website.[6]

445 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 6:24:22am

re: #444 Obdicut

Heh. So we remember different things.

446 Obdicut  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 6:26:40am

re: #445 Liberal Entity

Heh. So we remember different things.

I guess he was trying to build a 'brand' or something? Just wound up being confusing.

447 Killgore Trout  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 6:29:33am

re: #437 Obdicut

Ironically since you only noticed my error 10 hours later proves my point that you didn't watch the video. So at least I was correct about that.

448 kirkspencer  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 6:29:37am

re: #439 Liberal Entity

If you're claiming that someone somewhere believes it, no problem. I doubt very much, however, that this is indeed an "often" heard statement, as you imply. The standard position of KJV-onlyism is not that "it was good enough for Paul". However, you're welcome to show some verifiable data on this issue.

In the vicinity of Chattanooga while attending various churches' bible studies over the period of about two years I heard it, I would estimate, approximately once every four meetings. I'd say that usually 80% of the people present looked at the speaker like they had grown a second head, but 20% were nodding in agreement. That's personal observation and undocumented, and so anecdotal instead of verifiable.

Sergey, I don't think you comprehend the strength of the alternate world-view some of these people have.

It was, I admit, a bit of hyperbole to imply "everyone" thought so. It is not hyperbole, however, to say that there are denominations for which the KJV is considered the only "true" version. The majority of those using the 'good enough for Paul' line with tongue partway in cheek are using humor to emphasize a (to them) serious point.

449 Obdicut  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 6:32:08am

re: #447 Killgore Trout

Ironically since you only noticed my error 10 hours later proves my point that you didn't watch the video. So at least I was correct about that.

Dude, I said in our conversation that I didn't watch the video, for fuck's sake. I know you've got this strategy of not really reading my comments, but if you're going to do that, your'e going to wind up making a fool of yourself quite often.

What does it fucking say about you that I was more accurate about the video than you without even watching it? Doesn't that make you feel at all embarrassed, that you claimed he didn't say anything about government censorship, and he was giving a speech about government censorship, began with the classic example of government censorship-- shouting fire in a theater-- and continued to reference government censorship throughout?

450 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 6:34:26am

re: #448 kirkspencer

I'm very familiar with KJV-onlyism, I just don't think the fanatics' positions should be stated in such a way as to make them even more unreal than they are. Anyway, I think we more or less agree.

451 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 6:36:46am

re: #446 Obdicut

I guess he was trying to build a 'brand' or something? Just wound up being confusing.

Well, anyway now it's not the time to unearth the missed Doherty book. While I'm not sure I will be convinced even by Carrier, he has the best shot, since he takes a reasonable position that historicists actually have met the burden of proof, which is now on the mythicists, and which he hopes to meet.

452 Obdicut  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 6:47:55am

re: #451 Liberal Entity

By the way, I really do recommend Uri's translations with his commentary. Obviously, it'd still be in a foreign language for you-- albeit one you're highly proficient with-- but his commentary on his decision-making process in the translation makes it worth it entirely.


[Link: www.amazon.com...]

453 Obdicut  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 6:49:11am

And I think his Wisdom books translation are even better:

[Link: www.amazon.com...]

454 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 6:50:57am

re: #452 Obdicut

Why the name alternation (Robert/Uri)?

455 Tigger2005  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 6:51:04am

re: #438 Tigger2005

The Jesus Puzzle isn't a novel. However, Doherty makes his argument in a much more scholarly fashion on his Web site. He was published in the Journal of Higher Criticism.

I take that back...Doherty did write a novel also titled The Jesus Puzzle, but his book The Jesus Puzzle: Did Christianity Begin With a Mythical Christ? is not a novel, but a straightforward presentation of his thesis.

456 Tigger2005  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 6:53:24am

re: #455 Tigger2005

I take that back...Doherty did write a novel also titled The Jesus Puzzle, but his book The Jesus Puzzle: Did Christianity Begin With a Mythical Christ? is not a novel, but a straightforward presentation of his thesis.

And the fact that he also presented his thesis in the form of a novel doesn't automatically call his scholarship into question. Carl Sagan wrote novels, too.

457 Obdicut  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 6:54:24am

re: #454 Liberal Entity

Why the name alternation (Robert/Uri)?

Oh, sorry, I know him personally, and Uri is his nickname. I'm not sure where it originates from, but I think that it's his "Jewish" name, so to speak-- most of his Israeli colleagues seem to use it preferentially, but then again, most of his colleagues, anywhere, do, because they're his friends.

[Link: muse.jhu.edu...]

458 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 6:57:25am

re: #455 Tigger2005

I should also note that when I tried to read it, I was a tentative mythicist (as far as I remember), so I didn't "go out of my way" to seek out such sources. I downloaded it, tried to read it, then forgot about it.

Now my position is that the prima facie reading of the sum of earliest evidence (Paul, "Mark", Josephus and some supplementary sources) coupled with non-extraordinary nature of the claim of historicity makes the historicity more probable than myth. However, I am also of the opinion that Jesus' historicity is wobbly - certainly not as well established as that of, say, Julius Caesar. Certainly, it can be claimed that "Mark" is wholly fictional, while Paul and Josephus may be interpolated. And such possibilities are not wild either. However, I think the burden of proof for such claims lies on mythicists.

459 William Barnett-Lewis  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 7:01:13am

re: #452 Obdicut

By the way, I really do recommend Uri's translations with his commentary. Obviously, it'd still be in a foreign language for you-- albeit one you're highly proficient with-- but his commentary on his decision-making process in the translation makes it worth it entirely.

[Link: www.amazon.com...]

I went looking at varions english translations and commentaries a while back. I'd still like to find a nice version of Rashi, but in the meantime I've been getting a lot of value and knowledge from studying this recent translation and commentary on the Torah.

[Link: www.amazon.com...]

460 Killgore Trout  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 7:03:44am

re: #420 Aye Pod

Exactly. The video he posted doesn't support his argument at all. Hitchens even says near the beginning of his speech that people are free to criticise him or even abuse him - "at their own risk". Killgore wants Limbaugh to be able to slander and abuse Sandra Fluke at no risk whatsoever.

Of course what Hitch is doing is inviting people to debate him. The consequences he's referring to is losing the debate. He's not talking about ejecting people from the auditorium for having a different idea or shutting off their microphone or punishing them financially or getting them fired from their job. He's inviting an exchange of ideas.

461 Obdicut  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 7:04:01am

re: #459 William Barnett-Lewis

Uri's commentaries are focused on the language itself, rather than the theology, if that makes a difference.

462 Sheila Broflovski  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 7:04:24am

re: #459 William Barnett-Lewis

I went looking at varions english translations and commentaries a while back. I'd still like to find a nice version of Rashi, but in the meantime I've been getting a lot of value and knowledge from studying this recent translation and commentary on the Torah.

[Link: www.amazon.com...]

There is a nice collection at the Zionist Mall.

463 William Barnett-Lewis  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 7:05:12am

re: #461 Obdicut

Uri's commentaries are focused on the language itself, rather than the theology, if that makes a difference.

Ah, probably does. I thought he was interested in commentary as such. I'll go back to lurking now.

464 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 7:06:40am

How is the morning going so far?

465 William Barnett-Lewis  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 7:08:32am

re: #462 Learned Mother of Zion

There is a nice collection at the Zionist Mall.

Thank you for the reminder. Once we get through with moving out of the foreclosed house, I'll work one of those sets into my personal (as opposed to family) budget.

466 Obdicut  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 7:10:33am

re: #460 Killgore Trout

Of course what Hitch is doing is inviting people to debate him. The consequences he's referring to is losing the debate. He's not talking about ejecting people from the auditorium for having a different idea or shutting of their microphone or punishing them financially or getting them fired from their job. He's inviting an exchange of ideas.

If someone simply began screaming at the top of their lungs, what do you think Hitchens would do? What if they just kept saying the word "Fart" as loud as they could, over and over?

How can you square your belief that ideas and words aren't dangerous with Hitchen's belief that the ideas behind religion are very dangerous-- according to him, the source of much of the world's ills?

467 Obdicut  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 7:12:20am

re: #460 Killgore Trout

By the way, can you cite a single instance of Hitchens referencing non-governmental censorship in that speech? Maybe I missed one.

468 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 7:17:25am

Birds are fuckin' noisy this morning.

469 Killgore Trout  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 7:17:35am

re: #466 Obdicut

How can you square your belief that ideas and words aren't dangerous with Hitchen's belief that the ideas behind religion are very dangerous-- according to him, the source of much of the world's ills?

You're missing the point Hitch's example of the propaganda leading to the holocaust. It wasn't the decade or so of Nazi propaganda that was responsible, although I'm sure he would admit it played a role. What lead to the holocaust was 2,000 years of hate that proceeded the holocaust that was mostly responsible. We could also include the genocide in Rawanda into that scenario. Sure the radio stations played a role but the real problem was the generations of ethnic and tribal hate.

470 Killgore Trout  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 7:18:00am

re: #467 Obdicut

By the way, can you cite a single instance of Hitchens referencing non-governmental censorship in that speech? Maybe I missed one.

Mohammed cartoons.

471 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 7:24:37am

re: #469 Killgore Trout

And such hate is sustained exactly by speech, by legitimization of the hate discourse in society.

472 Killgore Trout  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 7:24:50am
How can you square your belief that ideas and words aren't dangerous

Of course I never said this and don't believe it.

473 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 7:25:06am

have a great day all!

474 Obdicut  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 7:26:39am

re: #469 Killgore Trout

You're missing the point Hitch's example of the propaganda leading to the holocaust. It wasn't the decade or so of Nazi propaganda that was responsible, although I'm sure he would admit it played a role. What lead to the holocaust was 2,000 years of hate that proceeded the holocaust that was mostly responsible. .

Yes-- hate that came from ideas, and words. I'm not missing the point-- in fact, I cited that earlier.

We could also include the genocide in Rawanda into that scenario. Sure the radio stations played a role but the real problem was the generations of ethnic and tribal hate

Hate not based on any words and ideas, I assume?

The history of the genocide there begins with a Tutsi monarchy before colonization, continued in the divide and racialist ideas propagated by the Belgians in order to help their colonization, and then perpetuated by the publication of racialist Hutu ideas, first in the Hutu Manifesto, and later in the Hutu Ten Commandments, which continued to spread the idea of ethnic conflict and complete incompatibility.

So, yeah, propaganda going back generations was responsible for it. Somehow, you're managing to convince yourself that 'ethnic and tribal hate' exists independently of 'words and ideas'. It's pretty fucking weird.

475 Obdicut  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 7:28:03am

re: #472 Killgore Trout

Of course I never said this and don't believe it.

re: #134 Killgore Trout

There's no need to fear ideas and words, it's a sign of weakness.

Are you just going to pettifog about 'fear' now?

Should the Tutsi's not have feared those genocidal ideas and language being spread around?

476 What, me worry?  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 7:32:04am

re: #441 Aye Pod

Hi Madge! Just enjoying the rare weather here right now, and being amused at the antics of our cat -she has developed a sock fetish - tries to steal them from you and then nurses them and cries over them. It's like she imagines that the socks are her children.

(Sorry, wandering neighbors came by for morning coffee klatch....)

The cat sounds soooo cute! That is definitely behavior I've never heard of before. Although, I have a kitty with a foot fetish. She likes to lick toes. I'm sure it's the smell. Ok, my feet aren't overtly stinky! But they are attracted to body odors. I imagine this has something to do with her choosing your socks.

Ok kids, I'm off again. Will try to catch up later.

477 Obdicut  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 7:32:47am

re: #476 Madge

One of my cats sticks his face into my slippers when I take them off and huffs, before rolling around ecstatically.

478 What, me worry?  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 7:33:38am

re: #477 Obdicut

One of my cats sticks his face into my slippers when I take them off and huffs, before rolling around ecstatically.

I know! They seem to love the foot odors.

479 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 7:33:50am

Cats are pervs.


/

480 Killgore Trout  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 7:41:46am

re: #474 Obdicut

So, yeah, propaganda going back generations was responsible for it. Somehow, you're managing to convince yourself that 'ethnic and tribal hate' exists independently of 'words and ideas'. It's pretty fucking weird.

That's not what I'm saying. My point (and Hitch's as well) is that hate exists independently of books, or radio and flourishes even when certain speech or ideas are publicly banned. People talk in their homes in whispers and they say hateful things. Even an Orwellian nightmare of rounding people up for thought crimes is impractical. Banning public speech does very little to stop hate.

481 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 7:46:41am

re: #480 Killgore Trout

That's not what I'm saying. My point (and Hitch's as well) is that hate exists independently of books, or radio and flourishes even when certain speech or ideas are publicly banned. People talk in their homes in whispers and they say hateful things. Even an Orwellian nightmare of rounding people up for thought crimes is impractical. Banning public speech does very little to stop hate.

And this point is incorrect. People may talk whatever in their homes, but they know that some forms of speech are just not publicly acceptable.

When they know that such speech is publicly acceptable, bad things are much more probable than otherwise.

Moreover, the claim that societal delegitimization of speech does not lead to decrease in hate is dubious at best. It was OK to hate blacks or gays in 19th century. Now - not so much, especially with younger people. So while hate seeps between generations, if it's not accepted by society (and one of the features of this is non-acceptance of hate speech), its flow is still decreased.

482 Obdicut  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 7:48:41am

re: #480 Killgore Trout

I really think that you've shown yourself to be incapable of summarizing Hitchen's point, given that you asserted he never talked about government censorship, and he talked almost, if not completely, exclusively about government censorship. Try making your argument without resorting to hiding behind Hitchens. Also-- have you found any example from that speech of Hitchens talking about a form of censorship other than government censorship? It would help make you less ridiculous.

My point (and Hitch's as well) is that hate exists independently of books, or radio and flourishes even when certain speech or ideas are publicly banned.

Why are you suddenly talking about things being banned again? Hitchen's point is not about hate existing or spreading even when it's banned, by the way. He has several points: the first, and most important one, is that having contrary opinions is useful because they force us to re-examine our actual positions, to not simply take the Holocaust on faith, but to re-examine it and make sure that we are in the right. He is not saying the idea itself has value.

The second point he is making is that censorship stops criticism of hateful and harmful ideas, that those who follow extremist religions will hide behind laws protecting their religions from criticism.

He is not talking about how hate speech flourishes even when it is banned. Feel free to prove me wrong by actually citing a section of the speech.

People talk in their homes in whispers and they say hateful things.

And the transmission of them is therefore slowed, whereas when it's published and widely read, it becomes mainstream and commonplace. Which is obvious. This is why it is good for hateful, harmful, evil ideas to be marginalized-- not to be banned, but to be ostracized, to be kept at the fringes.

Even an Orwellian nightmare of rounding people up for thought crimes is impractical. Banning public speech does very little to stop hate.

And once again your start babbling about 'banning public speech', which no one has advocated.

483 Aye Pod  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 7:49:41am

re: #460 Killgore Trout

Of course what Hitch is doing is inviting people to debate him. The consequences he's referring to is losing the debate. He's not talking about ejecting people from the auditorium for having a different idea or shutting off their microphone or punishing them financially or getting them fired from their job. He's inviting an exchange of ideas.

He also is making a distinction between free speech and consequence-free speech, something you seem unwilling to grasp.

Limbaugh has reaped (and continues to reap) lavish financial rewards for pleasing wingnuts over the years, there is no reason why he should he be protected from the negative consequences of pissing off decent people (in this instance people who object to gross slander).

484 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 7:50:17am

re: #480 Killgore Trout

BTW, I agree with Obdi that this reliance on Hitchens is weird. Hitchens said many things with which you would strongly disagree, maybe even find hateful. Is this an argument from authority? If not, you can use your own words.

485 Obdicut  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 7:51:04am

re: #484 Liberal Entity

He's also referencing him completely inaccurately, making it even fucking weirder.

486 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 7:52:37am

re: #466 Obdicut

If someone simply began screaming at the top of their lungs, what do you think Hitchens would do? What if they just kept saying the word "Fart" as loud as they could, over and over?

Insert Breitbart joke here.

487 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 7:53:04am

re: #34 Kragar

The ends justify the derp.

The weird thing is that I can't see any ends this DERP could serve. Neither of the main two Republican candidates will have anything to do with hurling racist innuendos at Trayvon Martin's memory, only Gingrich could possibly see any gain from that. The only end this DERP could really achieve would be to permanently alienate those who believe it from both Mitt Romney and Rick Santorum.

Though that could be a good thing if it induced haters to flounce from the GOP.

488 Aye Pod  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 7:54:47am

re: #484 Liberal Entity

BTW, I agree with Obdi that this reliance on Hitchens is weird. Hitchens said many things with which you would strongly disagree, maybe even find hateful. Is this an argument from authority? If not, you can use your own words.

Surely you can't resist the combined force of a misconstrued Hitchens and Zappa?/

489 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 7:56:47am

re: #488 Aye Pod

Surely you can't resist the combined force of a misconstrued Hitchens and Zappa?/

Sergey's logic shields will be powerful indeed if they can resist a DERP of that magnitude!

/

490 Killgore Trout  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 7:59:07am

re: #484 Liberal Entity

BTW, I agree with Obdi that this reliance on Hitchens is weird. Hitchens said many things with which you would strongly disagree, maybe even find hateful. Is this an argument from authority? If not, you can use your own words.

I'm using Hitch because I consider him to be a good authority on free speech. I disagree with him on other issues but I think his free speech points are spot on. I can't think of any of my free speech idols (Hitch, Twain, Zappa, etc) would support an economic boycott against Rush. I'm open to suggestions if you can think of anyone I would respect that would support silencing opposition radio shows? I can't think of one.

491 McSpiff  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 7:59:27am

re: #480 Killgore Trout

Government imposed banning does very little. Wide spread, grass roots efforts like a boycott campaign can and have done much to stop hate speech.

492 Killgore Trout  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 8:01:29am

re: #491 McSpiff

Government imposed banning does very little. Wide spread, grass roots efforts like a boycott campaign can and have done much to stop hate speech.

Holocaust denial has been outlawed for many years in Europe but still thives out of public view. You can stop the public speech but it does very little to stop the hate behind it.

493 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 8:03:47am

re: #490 Killgore Trout

I guess I just don't have free speech idols, so I can't empathize here.

494 Sheila Broflovski  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 8:04:09am

It's 2 weeks before Passover, which means Spring Cleaning is in full swing! I didn't realize I don't have the strength that I used to have years ago. I scheduled a cleaning crew for this week and and another for next week just to turn over the kitchen.

495 Killgore Trout  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 8:04:12am

re: #493 Liberal Entity

I guess I just don't have free speech idols, so I can't empathize here.

Heh, fair enough.

496 Aye Pod  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 8:04:38am

It's good that the dead have someone here to pass on their support for Limbaugh from beyond the grave. It's what they would have wanted./

Later folks :)

497 Obdicut  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 8:04:46am

re: #492 Killgore Trout

Holocaust denial has been outlawed for many years in Europe but still thives out of public view. You can stop the public speech but it does very little to stop the hate behind it.

If this is simply an article of faith for you-- if you're going to ignore the many, many times in human history where propaganda has played a very obvious, and public role in inflaming hate-- if you're going to contradict your own self when the other day you bemoaned Al Sharpton's involvement in the Travyon shooting as 'inflaming racial tensions'-- then there's not much that can be done.

Propaganda has effects. Mainstreaming of hate obviously makes it more acceptable and makes the effects larger. your contention is false, and it's provably so by the most cursory look at human history.

498 Obdicut  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 8:05:11am

re: #496 Aye Pod

It's good that the dead have someone here to pass on their support for Limbaugh from beyond the grave. It's what they would have wanted./

Later folks :)

I always honor my heroes by completely misrepresenting what they said. It's the best way.

499 Killgore Trout  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 8:05:38am

re: #488 Aye Pod

Surely you can't resist the combined force of a misconstrued Hitchens and Zappa?/

If you think Hitch or Zappa would support grass roots efforts to silence radio shows you're sorely mistaken.

500 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 8:06:47am

re: #498 Obdicut

I always honor my heroes by completely misrepresenting what they said. It's the best way.

Your real last name wouldn't happen to be 'Beck', would it?

/

501 Obdicut  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 8:07:01am

re: #494 Learned Mother of Zion

I had to go let a cleaning lady into a friend of mine's apartment the other day-- she was out of town on an extended business trip. It was a horrorshow-- not only had she left dishes in the sink, but food in the fridge. I helped clean.

The funniest part was that the cleaning lady, a very demure woman from Nigeria, was wearing a Jason Vorhees jersey, complete with blood spatters.

502 Killgore Trout  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 8:07:05am

re: #498 Obdicut

I always honor my heroes by completely misrepresenting what they said. It's the best way.

Perhaps then you can find an example of Hitch supporting efforts to ban a book or silence a political radio show.

503 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 8:07:28am

re: #492 Killgore Trout

Holocaust denial has been outlawed for many years in Europe but still thives out of public view. You can stop the public speech but it does very little to stop the hate behind it.

Well, first of all it hasn't been outlawed "in Europe" but in some European countries. Second, HD doesn't exactly thrive, which is also due to the anti-HD laws (to which I'm opposed in their current form, since I don't think historical interpretations should be outlawed - unless hateful intent is shown beyond the reasonable doubt in court [and this pertains only to certain countries with complex history, not the US]). It is seen as a fringe phenomenon.

504 Obdicut  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 8:07:34am

re: #499 Killgore Trout

If you think Hitch or Zappa would support grass roots efforts to silence radio shows you're sorely mistaken.

Have you found a single example in that speech of Hitchens talking about non-governmental censorship yet?

505 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 8:08:31am

re: #494 Learned Mother of Zion

It's 2 weeks before Passover, which means Spring Cleaning is in full swing! I didn't realize I don't have the strength that I used to have years ago. I scheduled a cleaning crew for this week and and another for next week just to turn over the kitchen.

No comment necessary.

506 Killgore Trout  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 8:09:29am

re: #504 Obdicut

Have you found a single example in that speech of Hitchens talking about non-governmental censorship yet?

Mohammed cartoons.

507 Killgore Trout  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 8:10:01am

re: #504 Obdicut

Have you found a single example in that speech of Hitchens talking about non-governmental censorship yet?

Nice attempt to move the goalpost.

508 Obdicut  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 8:10:34am

re: #502 Killgore Trout

Perhaps then you can find an example of Hitch supporting efforts to ban a book or silence a political radio show.

Conflating 'banning' with a boycott is stupid, and it will remain stupid no matter how many times you attempt to do it.

I don't think I can find any example. Luckily, I'm not attempting to prove that he would have supported it. I personally think he would have been just fine with people calling up their advertisers and expressing their own free speech to them, and you have done nothing, not in the least, to even begin to suggest otherwise.

If all you're going to do is continue to claim that you're the speaker for the late Mr. Hitchens-- while saying easily demonstrable crap like 'he never mentions government censorship' in a speech entirely about government censorship-- then have fun fun with that, you've found a way to become more ridiculous than you were before.

509 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 8:10:52am

re: #506 Killgore Trout

Mohammed cartoons.

Mohammed cartoons story is an example of illegal pressure. This should never be tolerated.

510 Obdicut  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 8:11:50am

re: #507 Killgore Trout

Nice attempt to move the goalpost.

What the fuck? You claimed he never mentioned governmental censorship, and me asking you to provide a single example of him mentioning anything else is moving the goalposts?

Hilariously pathetic, man. Wow.

511 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 8:11:56am

re: #499 Killgore Trout

If you think Hitch or Zappa would support grass roots efforts to silence radio shows you're sorely mistaken.

And so what if they wouldn't? Rush was so far over the line in his Sandra Fluke rant that a boycott was practically necessitated. He had to be boycotted, if for no other reason than to remind other broadcasters of the price for gross slander.

If you want rules and standards to be maintained, then you cannot allow people to transgress those rules and standards with impunity. It's best to be moderate in action in such matters, yes, but a gross violation of magnitude of Limbaugh's violation requires a forceful response, if the rules and standards are to have any real influence at all.

512 Obdicut  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 8:12:46am

re: #509 Liberal Entity

Mohammed cartoons story is an example of illegal pressure. This should never be tolerated.

Hitchens did, elsewhere, talking about the self-censorship of people not publishing the Mohammed cartoons, and did not posit it completely in terms of being afraid of the threats, but also simply not wanting to 'give offense'. I'm not sure if that was referenced in this speech, and I'll have to listen to it again to see.

513 McSpiff  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 8:16:04am

re: #492 Killgore Trout

Holocaust denial has been outlawed for many years in Europe but still thives out of public view. You can stop the public speech but it does very little to stop the hate behind it.

Thank you for agreeing with me.

514 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 8:17:00am

re: #513 McSpiff

Heh.

515 Gus  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 8:19:16am

Did I break anything?

//

516 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 8:19:19am

[Link: www.bbc.co.uk...]

Afghan families who lost relatives in the Kandahar massacre have been paid compensation by the US military.

They received $46,000 (£29,000) for each person killed and $10,000 (£6,300) for each person injured, Afghan officials and tribal elders said.

[...]

"We were invited by the foreign and Afghan officials in Panjwai yesterday and they said this money is an assistance from [US President] Obama," Haji Jan Agha, who said he lost his cousins, told Reuters on Sunday.

I honestly don't know what to think of this.

517 darthstar  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 8:23:40am

Dkos photo diary of teabagger anti-health care rally...worth checking out.

[Link: www.dailykos.com...]

518 Obdicut  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 8:24:45am

re: #506 Killgore Trout

Mohammed cartoons.

Just listened to the Hitchens speech again-- his reference to the Mohammed cartoons is about the threat of violence. So you're technically correct, that he does name one force of non-governmental censorship, that of the threat of violence and death if you dare to say something. That is the sole bit in the entire speech, and it occurs at the very end-- and his main point is still that it is ridiculous to allow that speech while calling what he is saying about Islam hate speech. So that misses, very largely, the point of what he is saying.

It is really ridiculous to listen to that speech of Hitchens and not be able to understand that he is saying, very strongly that the spread and dissemination of religion-- Wahabbism in particular, but all religion-- is what he considers the source of most of the world's ills. It is ridiculous to pretend that Hitchens would not be happy if atheism became mainstream and religious thought was pushed to the fringes.

519 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 8:25:06am

Missed this:

[Link: www.thedailybeast.com...]

On April 22, 2011, Zimmerman called to report a black male about “7-9” years old, four feet tall, with a “skinny build” and short black hair. There is no indication in the police report of the reason for Zimmerman’s suspicion of the boy.

520 McSpiff  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 8:25:11am

No hate speech anywhere has ever been stopped ever. Its literally impossible. The average American still fears native Americans, the Irish, the Pope, black people, Jews, the Germans, the Japanese, etc.

Public boycotts against Jim Crow laws were some of the most egregious examples of the public trampling civil rights in American history.

Anything less than tuning in daily to some racist blowhard simply shows that most Americans have no real concept of free speech. Refusing to listen to someone is exactly equivalent to denying them their right to speak publicly. Informing advertisers en masse that the public will no longer listen to a performer is also denying them their right to free speech by denying employment. What if other people wanted to listen to that show? You should probably just listen to talk radio.

This can all be clearly seen in the writings of Hitchens, Thomas Paine, Thomas Jefferson and St. Thomas Aquinas.

521 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 8:27:11am

re: #520 McSpiff

This can all be clearly seen in the writings of Hitchens, Thomas Paine, Thomas Jefferson and St. Thomas Aquinas.

Book III, ch. 13.

522 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 8:28:57am

re: #516 Liberal Entity

[Link: www.bbc.co.uk...]

I honestly don't know what to think of this.

We always pay compensation when something we do gets Afghans killed. Its SOP. Its not as much as would be paid if the victims were from more developed nations simply because compensation payout is based on calculated economic loss.

523 darthstar  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 8:30:41am

re: #519 Liberal Entity

Missed this:

[Link: www.thedailybeast.com...]

"...yes...he's black...and he's got a rubber ball and it looks like he's going to...OMYGODHEDID!...he bounced it!"

524 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 8:31:36am

re: #523 darthstar

"...yes...he's black...and he's got a rubber ball and it looks like he's going to...OMYGODHEDID!...he bounced it!"

HE TAUNTED THE HAPPY FUN BALL

525 darthstar  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 8:33:52am

re: #522 Dark_Falcon

We always pay compensation when something we do gets Afghans killed. Its SOP. Its not as much as would be paid if the victims were from more developed nations simply because compensation payout is based on calculated economic loss.

How much would it take to compensate you for your family? $50,000? $100,000? More? Got a number? Has any study been done to follow up on those people who got big bank for having their families killed to see how they fared? Here's a stack of bills...now take your tent and move along.

526 Gus  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 8:34:13am

Just heard Paul Ryan babbling in the background. Apparently if we balance the budget and cut spending jobs will magically appear and "people will go back to work again." Instead of offering to work with the White House once again he reiterates that the Republicans are there to offer a "sharp turn" or provide a "sharp contrast for them to vote on..."

I need a smoke.

527 Obdicut  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 8:37:14am

re: #525 darthstar

If the US government had negligently killed US citizens, we'd compensate them too.

It's weird, and ghoulish, but it's in line with general torts. It's no weirder than compensation someone for an accidental death under other circumstances, really. As long as it isn't just compensation, but the guy who did it gets tried, too, it seems okay to me.

528 Gus  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 8:40:48am

A Bit More on the New Black Panther Party Panic
By Jesse Singal

Commenter tanstaafl steals a point I had wanted to make:

From the linked article, “The Southern Poverty Law Center says the New Black Panther Party, a black-separatist group founded in 1989, is “virulently racist and anti-Semitic,” and its leaders have encouraged violence against whites, Jews and law officers.”

The article doesn’t mention that they are also tiny, have no support from left-wing groups and were virtually irrelevant before the Republicans turned them into stereotypes of the “scary black man” after the 2008 polling place incident. So they aren’t a subsidiary of the Republican Party dirty tricks department, but they appear to be willing to be used as such if the alternative is being ignored.

Continues.

529 ReamWorks SKG  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 8:43:16am

I haven't seen anyone comment on the idiocy of "Gated Communities" with their quasi-governments running things (and, in general, making life hell for people).

We brought an action and settled against one when they refused to sell us a lot in a development. It turns out, not getting that lot was a lucky break. It would have been hell for us.

In Orange County, Florida, the county mandates a HOA for all new developments! Imagine having some old biddy on a board having to authorize every change to your property, or to ticket you for leaving your trash can out too long, or to tell you that your basketball hoop is prohibited. For our Florida home, we ended up buying an undeveloped 20-acre lot, outside of any development, and using legal muscle to get a permit to build on it outside of an HOA.

HOAs breed crazies like George Z.

530 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 8:44:25am

re: #525 darthstar

How much would it take to compensate you for your family? $50,000? $100,000? More? Got a number? Has any study been done to follow up on those people who got big bank for having their families killed to see how they fared? Here's a stack of bills...now take your tent and move along.

Like Obdi said, it isn't like that, darth. We're not pretending that handing the Afghan families who lost loved ones money will make it right. But they were wronged by an American, and it is just to try to compensate them for the damage they suffered. Just because we owe them more than money, doesn't mean we don't owe them money.

531 darthstar  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 8:44:55am

re: #528 Gus

I knew a tanstaafl online...always liked that nic, "there ain't no such thing as a free lunch"

532 Obdicut  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 8:44:59am

re: #529 ReamWorks

I know a few nice gated communities, but in general, you're right. And HOAs exist without gates, too.

533 Tigger2005  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 8:47:09am

re: #458 Liberal Entity

I should also note that when I tried to read it, I was a tentative mythicist (as far as I remember), so I didn't "go out of my way" to seek out such sources. I downloaded it, tried to read it, then forgot about it.

Now my position is that the prima facie reading of the sum of earliest evidence (Paul, "Mark", Josephus and some supplementary sources) coupled with non-extraordinary nature of the claim of historicity makes the historicity more probable than myth. However, I am also of the opinion that Jesus' historicity is wobbly - certainly not as well established as that of, say, Julius Caesar. Certainly, it can be claimed that "Mark" is wholly fictional, while Paul and Josephus may be interpolated. And such possibilities are not wild either. However, I think the burden of proof for such claims lies on mythicists.

This is the main thing I wish more peoplewould acknowledge...that the mythicist thesis is not "wild" or "out there." It is a very legitimate argument. As for burden of proof, Earl Doherty has more than met that burden, in my opinion.

534 Gus  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 8:47:30am

ICYMI

Mitt Romney Explains the Individual Mandate to Erick Erickson in 2006

Youtube Video

Mitt Romney explains glowingly the individual mandate. Erick Erickson nods approvingly.

535 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 8:47:46am

re: #529 ReamWorks

I haven't seen anyone comment on the idiocy of "Gated Communities" with their quasi-governments running things (and, in general, making life hell for people).

We brought an action and settled against one when they refused to sell us a lot in a development. It turns out, not getting that lot was a lucky break. It would have been hell for us.

In Orange County, Florida, the county mandates a HOA for all new developments! Imagine having some old biddy on a board having to authorize every change to your property, or to ticket you for leaving your trash can out too long, or to tell you that your basketball hoop is prohibited. For our Florida home, we ended up buying an undeveloped 20-acre lot, outside of any development, and using legal muscle to get a permit to build on it outside of an HOA.

HOAs breed crazies like George Z.

I'm not sure I agree. But I should at this point disclose that I live in a condominium, and I'm on my building's board of directors. We're a pretty stable bunch, with no nut cases to be found.

536 darthstar  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 8:48:54am

re: #530 Dark_Falcon

It's the emotional detachment that gets me. Yes, we killed some innocent people...they should be compensated. There is no 'compensation' for taking someone's life...except maybe giving them another shot at it. Though nobody's figured out how to do that yet.

537 ReamWorks SKG  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 8:49:53am

One more outrageous outrage before I get to work:

The NY Times ran an editorial that basically said: "See! The people in Mad Men had 90% tax rates and they're perfectly happy! Therefore, our taxes can be 90%, too for the "rich"

[Link: www.nytimes.com...]

(In other news, they didn't question a Boston school districts decision to discard $500,000 worth of taxpayer-funded beef because a few crazy parents complained about "ammonia treatment." They didn't question the waste of taxpayer money. Not one sentence devoted to that.)

538 Tigger2005  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 8:50:03am

re: #516 Liberal Entity

[Link: www.bbc.co.uk...]

I honestly don't know what to think of this.

What else can we do? We can't give them their loved ones back. No, money can't make up for the loss, and nobody claims it does. But it takes some of the pressure off them as they mourn and adjust.

539 darthstar  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 8:50:15am

re: #535 Dark_Falcon

I'm not sure I agree. But I should at this point disclose that I live in a condominium, and I'm on my building's board of directors. We're a pretty stable bunch, with no nut cases to be found.

You're sure about that?
//

540 ReamWorks SKG  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 8:53:45am

re: #535 Dark_Falcon

A condo is a slightly different situation because you are sharing walls and roofs. I was referring to HOAs with single-family detached houses. Often the only common property is a little triangle of land where the sign is.

However even condo HOAs have their problems:

1. In Florida you may discover that a significant number of your neighbors are no longer paying their dues. (Why should they have to? The banks cheated them! They deserve a free condo! And besides, nobody else is paying!) So if the roof needs repair, you either need to pay up more, or also decide to default

2. The condo has to approve sales. A friend of mine's mother passed away. There were 10 units in her complex already for sale, nothing sold for a year. She priced hers about 25% below the cheapest one that was for sale and found a buyer. The condo board refused the sale because "it would set a lower comp and devalue us all." Boo hoo! (She hired a lawyer and prevailed.)

541 Obdicut  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 8:55:22am

re: #540 ReamWorks

My parents own a condo, and the other condo people keep trying to get the repairs done on the cheap by friends of friends and suchlike. It's been a big headache for them.

542 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 9:01:07am

re: #537 ReamWorks

One more outrageous outrage before I get to work:

The NY Times ran an editorial that basically said: "See! The people in Mad Men had 90% tax rates and they're perfectly happy! Therefore, our taxes can be 90%, too for the "rich"

[Link: www.nytimes.com...]

(In other news, they didn't question a Boston school districts decision to discard $500,000 worth of taxpayer-funded beef because a few crazy parents complained about "ammonia treatment." They didn't question the waste of taxpayer money. Not one sentence devoted to that.)

The New York Times proves it can still DERP with the best (worst) of 'em.

543 Obdicut  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 9:02:03am

re: #537 ReamWorks

Er, what's the connection between that article and the meat? I don't see it.

544 Gus  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 9:02:31am

re: #537 ReamWorks

One more outrageous outrage before I get to work:

The NY Times ran an editorial that basically said: "See! The people in Mad Men had 90% tax rates and they're perfectly happy! Therefore, our taxes can be 90%, too for the "rich"

[Link: www.nytimes.com...]

(In other news, they didn't question a Boston school districts decision to discard $500,000 worth of taxpayer-funded beef because a few crazy parents complained about "ammonia treatment." They didn't question the waste of taxpayer money. Not one sentence devoted to that.)

That's an op/ed and not an official NY Times Editorial.

545 ReamWorks SKG  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 9:03:03am

re: #543 Obdicut

It's a different article

[Link: www.nytimes.com...]

I was just being random! Now to get to work! I'm blocking my news sites until 5:00PM Pacific Time (In Northern California this week)

546 Tigger2005  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 9:04:03am

re: #533 Tigger2005

This is the main thing I wish more peoplewould acknowledge...that the mythicist thesis is not "wild" or "out there." It is a very legitimate argument. As for burden of proof, Earl Doherty has more than met that burden, in my opinion.

I should add, of course, I'm not a scholar, nor do I read Latin or Greek as Doherty does. But I think a lay person familiar with the principles of critical thinking can usually tell when somebody is advancing a valid argument or just blowing smoke. Doherty's thesis deserves more serious consideration than it has thus far received. Yet those scholars who have bothered to address it typically fail to address Doherty's actual points and instead repeat the same arguments for historicity that Doherty devotes a large part of his thesis to carefully deconstructing.

547 [deleted]  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 9:08:20am
548 Obdicut  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 9:09:27am

re: #547 MikeySDCA

The Bell Curve is a racist piece of crap based on pseudosceicne.

549 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 9:14:31am

re: #533 Tigger2005

I'm not saying most mythicism as it exists isn't wild or out there. It is. Not due to the thesis itself, but due to wildly inaccurate claims the authors make. Note that Carrier acknowledges as much.

I was talking about particular claims, which, when taken one by one are not outrageous, merely non-probative. E.g. it is not outrageous to suspect that the passage in Josephus in which he mentioned the death of James, brother of Jesus who is called Christ is an interpolation. Could it be? Yes. That Origen mentions this mention in 2nd century makes this unlikely, but not impossible, so it's not a wacky claim in itself.

When Paul describes meeting James, "brother of the Lord" in Jerusalem, is it wacky to suggest that this description may have been interpolated? No, because we know how rampant the Christian scribes' additions were. It wouldn't raise many eyebrows if this was indeed an interpolation. However, there is no evidence of such. Possibility does not amount to probability. So this mention, taken together with Josephus' mention, is good evidence that James was historical Jesus' brother. And there are several such arguments that can be adduced that make historicism more probable than mythicism. I found that I more or less agree with Ehrman on the evidential basis, even if I disagree with his shrillness.

Quite possibly Doherty is the best of the bunch, and I suspect when Carrier's volume is out, he will be the best of the bunch. He may even start to change the experts' consensus. Or not. We will see, I guess. Meanwhile, I'm sticking to consensus, which seems reasonable to me.

550 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 9:17:48am

re: #547 MikeySDCA

OT

In the mid-1970s I spent some time meditating on the impact of the bell-shaped curve on politics. It seemed to me that those whose IQs were in the 35th to 50th percentiles, a numerically significant group, would likely exhibit distinctive voting behavior. I labeled this "the dim vote," and at that time I speculated that they would go for Teddy Kennedy.

In Louisiana, it seems clear that Santorum is the champion of the dim vote. He gained commanding majorities in every major demographic except voters with household income in excess of $200K, which is certainly a group not likely to include much of the dim vote.

Couldn't that be better explained by rich people voting for the person most likely to share their interests, i.e. Mitt Romney? Leaving aside for a time the validity of Herrnstein and Murray's arguments, it would seem that a simple explanation like mine would fit better than bringing in their very complicated argument into play.

551 Gus  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 9:23:14am

Fotoshop by Adobé

Vimeo
552 Talking Point Detective  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 9:23:54am

re: #528 Gus

A Bit More on the New Black Panther Party Panic
By Jesse Singal

Thank goodness no one here at LGF would mistakenly confuse rightwing "concern" about the "Blank Panthers" connections to the Zimmerman case as a legitimate issue.

That would be almost as absurd as saying that people support raping and stabbing.

553 Daniel Ballard  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 9:28:51am

re: #551 Gus
Brilliant.
I just got the CS 6 beta yesterday.

Waking up to this? LMAO. Priceless.

554 Obdicut  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 9:29:40am

re: #552 Talking Point Detective

I think the NBP offering money for his capture is absurd and probably criminal and that they should be arrested for it. I don't think it's likely they'll have much of an effect, though.

555 sattv4u2  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 9:30:19am

Thousands of New Agers descend on mountain they see as haven from December's apocalypse

I'm sure this will end well

Can anyone say Marshall Applewhite!?!?

[Link: www.independent.co.uk...]

556 Obdicut  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 9:30:37am

re: #553 Daniel Ballard

Note the discussion that begins up at 263, by the way-- Charles is looking for ideas on how to best promote good pages.

557 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 9:32:41am

re: #555 sattv4u2

Thousands of New Agers descend on mountain they see as haven from December's apocalypse

I'm sure this will end well

Can anyone say Marshall Applewhite!?!?

[Link: www.independent.co.uk...]

Oh Lord, show your people favor by sending rainstorms, that those smelly hippies might thus be bathed!

BBL

558 Gus  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 9:32:45am

re: #554 Obdicut

I think the NBP offering money for his capture is absurd and probably criminal and that they should be arrested for it. I don't think it's likely they'll have much of an effect, though.

Just more "bad publicity" for themselves.

//

559 Obdicut  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 9:33:15am

re: #556 Obdicut

Whoops, 246, not 263.

560 Gus  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 9:34:22am

re: #555 sattv4u2

Thousands of New Agers descend on mountain they see as haven from December's apocalypse

I'm sure this will end well

Can anyone say Marshall Applewhite!?!?

[Link: www.independent.co.uk...]

Shouldn't that be ascend instead descend? If they descended onto the mountain then they must have come from the heavens!

//

561 sattv4u2  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 9:35:26am

re: #554 Obdicut

I think the NBP offering money for his capture is absurd and probably criminal and that they should be arrested for it. I don't think it's likely they'll have much of an effect, though.

Here's the question I have

They're offering $10,000 to the person that "captures" GZ, but they hope to raise $1,000,000!

I didn't know operating expense for a posse were so high!!!

562 sattv4u2  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 9:36:22am

re: #560 Gus

Shouldn't that be ascend instead descend? If they descended onto the mountain then they must have come from the heavens!

//

They're New Agers

They're already on a higher plain than you or I

563 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 9:36:33am

re: #549 Liberal Entity

Perhaps I could define my position this way: Jesus' historicity has been proven by the preponderance of evidence, but not necessarily beyond the reasonable doubt.

564 Talking Point Detective  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 9:36:38am

re: #554 Obdicut

I think the NBP offering money for his capture is absurd and probably criminal and that they should be arrested for it. I don't think it's likely they'll have much of an effect, though.

My guess is that the most notable effect will be to hand a PR tool over to the right wing. That's what's particularly galling about groups like the "NBP." Of course, partisans on both sides will use virtually anything to substantiate bogus arguments - but look at how successfully Fox News has milked that dude standing outside of the polling station in Philly. I read a Philly blog where the "New Black Panther voter intimidation" is brought up constantly (as if it somehow justifies poverty in the black community).

565 Gus  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 9:37:45am

re: #562 sattv4u2

They're New Agers

They're already on a higher plain than you or I

Olmmm. Wiiiishh. Nyaaaaah. Bloongglong. Namio. Platu. Saito. Olmmmm.

Get your healing rock now and pay only $69.95.

566 sattv4u2  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 9:40:36am

re: #565 Gus

Olmmm. Wiiishh. Nyaaah. Bloongglong. Namio. Platu. Saito. Olmmm.

Get your healing rock now and pay only $69.95.

iirc, the Applewhite group was found with new Nikes and rolls of quarters. Someone asked what the rolls of quarters were for. I stated they must be expecting a lot of toll booths between here and heaven

567 Daniel Ballard  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 9:41:06am

re: #556 Obdicut

Thanks!!

568 Gus  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 9:43:32am
569 Achilles Tang  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 9:44:40am

re: #555 sattv4u2

Thousands of New Agers descend on mountain they see as haven from December's apocalypse

I'm sure this will end well

Can anyone say Marshall Applewhite!?!?

[Link: www.independent.co.uk...]

Clearly evolution is still stumbling along in humans.

570 Daniel Ballard  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 9:44:48am

So it's easy to see what Pages get updings, or lots of comments.

But what makes a Page good for lots of retweets? That seems to be almost random.

571 William Barnett-Lewis  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 9:45:19am

re: #522 Dark_Falcon

We always pay compensation when something we do gets Afghans killed. Its SOP. Its not as much as would be paid if the victims were from more developed nations simply because compensation payout is based on calculated economic loss.

You should have seen the checks the US cut to German farmers after a major exercise. According to the SOFA they were able to make some amazingly large claims for a single chicken killed or a field with track marks across it.

I wonder if we have to compensate for the destroyed poppy fields? (serious question, I don't remember.)

572 Achilles Tang  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 9:49:34am

re: #548 Obdicut

The Bell Curve is a racist piece of crap based on pseudosceicne.

No, but interpretations can be based on pseudoscience.

573 dragonfire1981  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 9:50:42am

re: #570 Daniel Ballard

So it's easy to see what Pages get updings, or lots of comments.

But what makes a Page good for lots of retweets? That seems to be almost random.

From what I've seen, the more controversial pages seem to bring a higher number of tweets. For example the page I posted awhile back about the GOP in Georgia wanting to pass a bill that would require women to carry dead babies got a lot of retweets.

It's marketing 101: the more you stand out, the more you'll get noticed

One thing I have started doing with regards to my pages is putting a lot of thought into the headline, because that's what shows up in the list on the right and, for the most part, that's what's going to cause someone to click on your page.

One thing I've also noticed is that Charles is generally cool with us plugging our pages on main threads from time to time, that can help boost visibility too.

Personally though, I could really care less how many retweets I get. The pages I publish are messages I want to get out there. If they resonate, great. If not, then so be it. I've said what I want to say.

574 sattv4u2  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 9:51:00am

re: #571 William Barnett-Lewis

some amazingly large claims for a single chicken killed

She wasn't a mere chicken,,, she was part of our family!!
Oh,, the Humanity!!! {sniffle,,, sniffle sniffle}

/

575 Killgore Trout  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 9:53:46am

re: #554 Obdicut

I think the NBP offering money for his capture is absurd and probably criminal and that they should be arrested for it. I don't think it's likely they'll have much of an effect, though.

It seems the police aren't going to arrest them for it. Probably because they don't want to escalate things.

576 Talking Point Detective  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 10:00:12am

re: #575 Killgore Trout

It seems the police aren't going to arrest them for it. Probably because they don't want to escalate things.

My guess is that it's because the DOJ is rife with Black Panthers. Just look at what happened with insiders at the DOJ undermining the voter intimidation case - in spite of the devastating widespread growth in voter intimidation that resulted from that incident.

577 jaunte  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 10:02:24am

re: #576 Talking Point Detective

Have you been watching Tea Party videos lately?

578 William Barnett-Lewis  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 10:03:12am

re: #574 sattv4u2

some amazingly large claims for a single chicken killed

She wasn't a mere chicken,,, she was part of our family!!
Oh,, the Humanity!!! {sniffle,,, sniffle sniffle}

/

I don't remember for certain - heck may well have been an urban myth among the troops - but IIRC the farmers could claim the economic value of 5 generation of descendants from a killed animal. In the case of a chicken, that's a lot of eggs...

579 Gus  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 10:04:25am

San Francisco bar's loss of lease strikes vein of outrage
The Gold Dust Lounge, nearly a century old, is slated to be replaced by a fashion chain store. Support has poured in for the brothers who have long run the bar. They refused to go and have filed suit.

580 Gus  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 10:05:06am
581 Obdicut  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 10:05:38am

re: #579 Gus

San Francisco bar's loss of lease strikes vein of outrage
The Gold Dust Lounge, nearly a century old, is slated to be replaced by a fashion chain store. Support has poured in for the brothers who have long run the bar. They refused to go and have filed suit.

What? You can't get rid of the Gold Dust. Herb Caen's ghost will wreak vengeance all over the damn city, probably knock down the Transamerican Pyramid.

582 Gus  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 10:06:26am

re: #581 Obdicut

What? You can't get rid of the Gold Dust. Herb Caen's ghost will wreak vengeance all over the damn city, probably knock down the Transamerican Pyramid.

Landmark designation! Maybe.

583 Obdicut  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 10:07:26am

re: #582 Gus

Landmark designation! Maybe.

I don't even like the place to hang out in, but yeah, it's a landmark. Certainly SF doesn't need just another damn fashion store.

584 Talking Point Detective  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 10:08:09am

re: #577 jaunte

Have you been watching Tea Party videos lately?

It doesn't take any research to be able to guess frightwing rhetoric on any issue. Viewing videos isn't necessary.

585 Gus  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 10:08:59am

re: #583 Obdicut

I don't even like the place to hang out in, but yeah, it's a landmark. Certainly SF doesn't need just another damn fashion store.

Especially around Union Square.

586 William Barnett-Lewis  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 10:10:03am

Leased? A bar for over a century is leased? They're probably out of luck unless they can buy it.

587 Talking Point Detective  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 10:11:16am

re: #582 Gus

Landmark designation! Maybe.

[Link: sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com...]

SAN FRANCISCO (CBS SF) – San Francisco’s Gold Dust Lounge, a Union Square bar faced with eviction by a landlord intent on converting the space to retail, does not qualify for historic landmark status, according to a report released by a city commission Friday.

588 jaunte  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 10:11:24am

SSDD:

589 Gus  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 10:13:44am

re: #587 Talking Point Detective

[Link: sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com...]

Guess that answers that question. They could make an exception. Would have to come from higher up.

590 Obdicut  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 10:15:33am

re: #589 Gus

The developers have a lot of pull in SF. Unlikely to go anywhere.

591 jaunte  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 10:16:31am

re: #584 Talking Point Detective

It doesn't take any research to be able to guess frightwing rhetoric on any issue. Viewing videos isn't necessary.

A Bit More on the New Black Panther Party Panic

"The article doesn’t mention that they are also tiny, have no support from left-wing groups and were virtually irrelevant before the Republicans turned them into stereotypes of the “scary black man” after the 2008 polling place incident. So they aren’t a subsidiary of the Republican Party dirty tricks department, but they appear to be willing to be used as such if the alternative is being ignored."

592 Gus  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 10:18:55am

re: #590 Obdicut

The developers have a lot of pull in SF. Unlikely to go anywhere.

Maybe so. Time moves on. Where there was once something for 100s of years it vanishes within years. Wonder what the current status of Vesuvio in North Beach is.

593 Gus  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 10:19:37am

re: #591 jaunte

A Bit More on the New Black Panther Party Panic

See #528 ;)

594 Obdicut  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 10:22:26am

re: #592 Gus

Maybe so. Time moves on. Where there was once something for 100s of years it vanishes within years. Wonder what the current status of Vesuvio in North Beach is.

Was still there the last time I checked, but most of the people in there didn't even know who Ferlinghetti was.

595 Gus  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 10:23:51am

re: #594 Obdicut

Was still there the last time I checked, but most of the people in there didn't even know who Ferlinghetti was.

Were they all staring at their iPhones?

//

596 dragonfire1981  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 10:24:20am

Here we go again...

Fox Commenters spew racial hatred following MS shooting

597 Talking Point Detective  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 10:26:05am

re: #590 Obdicut

The developers have a lot of pull in SF. Unlikely to go anywhere.

Seems to me that as compared to Philly, developers have to overcome a lot more obstacles in SF - I'm thinking of the endurance of the Tenderloin, mixed-income requirements, etc. In Philly, city officials routinely just roll over for developers - for example they rigged the game to tear down historic landmarks to expand the Convention Center (because the pedestrian-less wasteland of the already existing Convention Center wasn't enough).

598 Lidane  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 10:36:31am

Witness: Zimmerman 'never ... tried to help' Trayvon Martin

A woman who says she and her roommate witnessed the final moments of Trayvon Martin's life told Dateline NBC that George Zimmerman had "his hands pressed on his back" and "never turned him over or tried to help him."

Zimmerman's lawyer, when shown part of the interview being aired Sunday night on Dateline, emphasized that his client would be claiming self-defense.

"I think there were efforts made to render aid to Trayvon," Craig Sonner told NBC's TODAY show.

Mary Cutcher told Dateline that she and her roommate both saw Zimmerman "straddling the body, basically a foot on both sides of trayvon's body, and his hands pressed on his back."

Cutcher added that Zimmerman told her and her roommate to call the police.

"Zimmerman never turned him over or tried to help him or CPR or anything," Cutcher said.

599 Gus  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 10:41:16am

re: #596 dragonfire1981

Here we go again...

Fox Commenters spew racial hatred following MS shooting

They don't know any details of the crime and they're already starting to burn their crosses.

600 Varek Raith  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 10:43:44am

Fox Complains About "BFD" Shirts But Hosted Palin's "WTF Moments"

Maybe I should send Fox some LOLWTFPWNDBBQSAUCE?

601 Gus  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 10:46:12am

re: #600 +1 Adidas Hoodie of Justice

Fox Complains About "BFD" Shirts But Hosted Palin's "WTF Moments"

Maybe I should send Fox some LOLWTFPWNDBBQSAUCE?

WTF? BFD.

//

602 Gus  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 10:47:27am

re: #600 +1 Adidas Hoodie of Justice

Fox Complains About "BFD" Shirts But Hosted Palin's "WTF Moments"

Maybe I should send Fox some LOLWTFPWNDBBQSAUCE?

Hot Air genius, Ed Morrissey, chimes in.

604 The Ghost of a Flea  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 10:47:57am

re: #600 +1 Adidas Hoodie of Justice

Fox Complains About "BFD" Shirts But Hosted Palin's "WTF Moments"

Maybe I should send Fox some LOLWTFPWNDBBQSAUCE?

SSDD

FNC is always FUBAR

605 jaunte  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 10:50:42am

re: #602 Gus

Dumb. They can't now argue that ObamaCare is not a “big f******g deal” since it's the thing the Tea Partiers are still screaming "I will not comply" about. It's the BFD they think will unseat him.

606 Varek Raith  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 10:51:57am

Just a banner on CNN.

Brother of a gunman killed in siege in southwestern France charged with complicity in 7 murders and 2 attempted murders.

607 goddamnedfrank  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 10:55:45am

re: #506 Killgore Trout

Mohammed cartoons.

Hitch's point about the cartoons was that religious fanatics using threats of violence to effect external censorship through intimidation is a form of temporal authority, an extension of the church, and that the violent threats themselves constituted a rights violation. A boycott is people simply exercising their existing rights to free speech and association, they in no way trample on or violate the rights of others. No matter how much you lie about the contents of the speech that's not going to change.

Why did you lie about the contents of the speech? It was such a strange, incomprehensible decision on your part, as if your own personal integrity didn't matter to you.

608 Gus  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 10:56:26am

re: #605 jaunte

Dumb. They can't now argue that ObamaCare is not a “big f***g deal” since it's the thing the Tea Partiers are still screaming "I will not comply" about. It's the BFD they think will unseat him.

Now there's a real "outrageous outrage." Reminds me of this one low-life neighborhood I lived in for a year. The neighborhood was populated with the lowest form of teenage delinquents yet their parents were more outraged about cursing -- being the good Murican Christians that they were. More like drunkards.

"Go fuck yourself!" -- Dick Cheney to Patrick Leahy.

609 William Barnett-Lewis  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 10:57:00am

re: #594 Obdicut

Was still there the last time I checked, but most of the people in there didn't even know who Ferlinghetti was.

I'd really like to visit City Lights someday.

610 jaunte  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 10:58:05am

Dan Riehl:

"Too many would be black leaders are too happy to lead them down a path through a cotton field of ignorance and hate ending at the ballot box..."

Angry Black Lady:

Ah yes… the cotton field of ignorance. That’s my favorite cotton field. I once walked the path through the cotton field of ignorance. I was startled when I got to the Reverse Racism Roundabout. You see that’s where all the white folks who are being unfairly accused of being Racist turn around and accuse black people of being The Real Racists™. I don’t know how it happens — it’s some sort of rift in the fabric of race and time. We’re still looking into it.

611 Obdicut  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 10:58:17am

re: #609 William Barnett-Lewis

I'd really like to visit City Lights someday.

It's a lovely, lovely place, and if you do want to visit San Francisco and you do it during spring/summer months, let me know and I'll see if my parents are in the mood to put you up for the visit.

612 Lidane  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 10:58:48am

ABL reads a post by Dan Riehl about Charles and laughs-- at Dan Riehl's ignorance:

Breitbrat Dan Riehl: Blacks are Being ‘Lead Down a Path Through a Cotton Field of Ignorance’

Image: DanRiehl.jpg

613 Obdicut  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 10:59:04am

re: #610 jaunte

I swear, ABL's sense of humor reminds me so much of SFZs.

614 William Barnett-Lewis  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 10:59:44am

re: #603 Lidane

Lindsey Graham: ‘We All Know There’s A Racial Component’ To Trayvon Martin’s Death

Also:

Gun Owners Of America Chief Defends George Zimmerman: Trayvon Martin Was ‘Assailant’

Yeash. GOA: for those who think the NRA is run by RINOs. Feh. Good for Graham at least.

615 Killgore Trout  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 11:00:14am

re: #607 goddamnedfrank

I was mistaken and accepted the correction upthread. My point was that he was speaking about censorship in general. That applies to government, coerced and self censorship. Economic threats are still threats and can be used to stifle free speech.

616 Kronocide  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 11:00:30am

Dan Riehl is a special kind of hater, maybe worse than Geller. I hadn't really noticed till I Followed him on Twitter yesterday, now I'm getting all his tweets.

Vile person.

617 Gus  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 11:01:14am
618 Lidane  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 11:01:59am

Heh:

Image: GOP Etch-A-Sketch.gif

619 Varek Raith  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 11:03:00am

re: #613 Obdicut

I swear, ABL's sense of humor reminds me so much of SFZs.

1+1=ZOMG!!!

620 Obdicut  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 11:03:27am

re: #615 Killgore Trout

I was mistaken and accepted the correction upthread. My point was that he was speaking about censorship in general.

But he wasn't, Killgore. He was there to talk about a law, everything he referenced throughout the rest of the speech except at the very end was also about government censorship, and even then he still was doing it in the contrast to government censorship-- saying it was ridiculous for the government to ban his criticism of Islam when Islamic radicals were threatening violence against those who criticized Islam. You're continuing to misrepresent the speech.

The speech was not about general censorship. You may want it to be, but that won't change what it actually is-- what anyone listening to it will see that it actually is-- a speech about how silly he find's Canada's hate speech law, and Austria's laws against holocaust denial, etc.

621 jaunte  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 11:04:27am

re: #615 Killgore Trout

I was mistaken and accepted the correction upthread. My point was that he was speaking about censorship in general. That applies to government, coerced and self censorship. Economic threats are still threats and can be used to stifle free speech.

When you say stifle, it suggests cutting off the speech completely. I think in reality, economic threats just re-route speech to other outlets.

622 AK-47%  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 11:06:08am

re: #621 jaunte

When you say stifle, it suggests cutting off the speech completely. I think in reality, economic threats just re-route speech to other outlets.

there is a difference between freedom of speech and subsidized/sponsored speech. As was the case with Rush, his sponsors had the full right of free association to disassociate themselves from him.

623 jaunte  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 11:08:38am

re: #622 Second Amendment Renegation

Rush is now spreading his anti-censorship message on Twitter, with Bill O'Reilly helping out on Fox:

624 Gus  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 11:08:49am

This is why I said I have a little trouble when people start talking about riots regarding this situation with Martin. Frankly, it's prejudiced or bigoted expectation.

625 Gus  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 11:09:38am

re: #624 Gus

This is why I said I have a little trouble when people start talking about riots regarding this situation with Martin. Frankly, it's prejudiced or bigoted expectation.

And of course Super Wingnut William A. Jacobson pulls out all the stops with the "black fear."

626 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 11:09:47am

re: #608 Gus

Now there's a real "outrageous outrage." Reminds me of this one low-life neighborhood I lived in for a year. The neighborhood was populated with the lowest form of teenage delinquents yet their parents were more outraged about cursing -- being the good Murican Christians that they were. More like drunkards.

"Go fuck yourself!" -- Dick Cheney to Patrick Leahy.

Oh I had a good comeback. But no banning for me.

627 goddamnedfrank  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 11:12:34am

re: #615 Killgore Trout

I was mistaken and accepted the correction upthread. My point was that he was speaking about censorship in general. That applies to government, coerced and self censorship. Economic threats are still threats and can be used to stifle free speech.

You weren't just mistaken though, you presented an utterly backwards assessment of a video that you yourself posted. Your #184 castigated Obdicut for not having watched the video, which he freely acknowledged, condescending in the most bombastic and obnoxious terms:

You still haven't watched his speech or if you have you haven't understood it. He never mentions government censorship, he's talking about voluntary self censorship. Seriously, dude. Intentionally not understanding an idea or the meaning of a word is not a fruitful debate technique. It's frustrating to your opponent and they will eventually go away and ignore you. You can count that as a victory but intentional ignorance isn't going to persuade anyone who doesn't already agree with you.

You basically just foisted every single rhetorical error you yourself were committing at that very moment on someone else. You couldn't have been more wrong and there you were, lecturing away like the most useless kind of pompous cocksure idiot.

Lastly, again you deliberately miss the point, that economic promises are in no way equivalent to violent threats, that action born of free will that in no way impinges on another's rights can never be censorship. There is no reasonable expectation in the marketplace that others should just quietly keep buying one's goods.

628 Lidane  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 11:13:45am

re: #623 jaunte

Who knew that ordinary people writing and tweeting to advertisers that they would take their business elsewhere because of Rush Limbaugh's gross slander of Sandra Fluke were part of the far left?

I'll bet that's news to the people who chose to take a stand.

629 Kronocide  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 11:15:51am

re: #622 Second Amendment Renegation

there is a difference between freedom of speech and subsidized/sponsored speech. As was the case with Rush, his sponsors had the full right of free association to disassociate themselves from him.

Rush being censored? That's the stupidest thing I've heard in some time. His right to free speech is not being challenged or removed.

He has no right to speak to millions on the radio 5 days a week. It's a business, any free market capitalist should know that. People have a right to talk with each other and campaign to advertisers to remove their advertising.

Remember, he's just an entertainer.

Every time I see this come up it's the middle of a multi party convo so I don't want to further complicate it. But it's not complicated: the left is not censoring Rush. That's just fucking stupid, no other way to characterize it.

630 blueraven  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 11:18:27am

I'm sorry but as much as KT seems to speak about diversity of opinions, what it feels like to me, is that he wants 100% agreement with his positions.

It is not enough that many of us agreed that OWS was headed in the wrong direction and was likely to do harm. No...we had to renounce everything they did, applaud when they were pepper sprayed and beat.

We were supposed to be appalled by every crime if it was in any way associated with OWS, even if that association was many times, absolute BS.

If we didn't do these things, then we were all fucking moonbats who supported rape, Anon, Adbusters and antisemitism.

The same thing is going on here. If we support any boycott, we dont believe in free speech.

631 Gus  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 11:19:15am

Scary.

632 The Ghost of a Flea  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 11:20:18am

re: #615 Killgore Trout

I was mistaken and accepted the correction upthread. My point was that he was speaking about censorship in general. That applies to government, coerced and self censorship. Economic threats are still threats and can be used to stifle free speech.

So does Rush Limbaugh stirring up 30 million Dittoheads to call Sandra Fluke a whore, while declaring that her words can be ignored because she is a whore, count as an impingement of free speech via this system?

633 jaunte  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 11:20:29am

re: #631 Gus

Baylor Basketball: One Team, One God, One Goal

I think they should want to score more than that.

634 Killgore Trout  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 11:22:04am

re: #620 Obdicut

He summarizes his central point at bout 2:00 , He also talks about challenging one's own beliefs through free speech. Flat earth society, evolution, religion, etc. He's not talking about government suppression. He's talking about the cultural support for the free exchange of ideas. "Don't take refuge in the false security of consensus"

635 Kronocide  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 11:22:20am

Diversity of opinions means I can share my opinion that another opinion is detrimental to society. I can share my opinion with an advertiser on the show run by the person putting out the negative opinion. The advertiser can choose to pull advertising.

If that's not freedom and the 'free market of ideas' then I don't know what is.

But the delicious irony in all this is how the right is acting like their own caricature of the left that they've painted for years. Whiney, playing the victim, etc.

636 dragonfire1981  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 11:22:31am

Baylor is a Christian University, that slogan seems to fit.

637 Gus  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 11:22:51am

Hilarious.

638 Killgore Trout  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 11:23:13am

re: #632 The Ghost of a Flea

So does Rush Limbaugh stirring up 30 million Dittoheads to call Sandra Fluke a whore, while declaring that her words can be ignored because she is a whore, count as an impingement of free speech via this system?

Uh, no. I don't see why it would.

639 Interesting Times  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 11:24:54am

re: #632 The Ghost of a Flea

So does Rush Limbaugh stirring up 30 million Dittoheads to call Sandra Fluke a whore, while declaring that her words can be ignored because she is a whore, count as an impingement of free speech via this system?

If anything, Limbaugh's vicious slander of Fluke, and the resulting dittohead threats (which included sexual mutilation) were true analogies to the violent free-speech-suppressing threats Hitchens discussed.

640 Gus  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 11:25:13am

re: #636 dragonfire1981

Baylor is a Christian University, that slogan seems to fit.

Go Kentucky!

641 jaunte  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 11:25:53am

re: #634 Killgore Trout

I wouldn't follow that thinking through to let religious groups 'teach the controversy' about the theory of evolution in high school science classes. It probably wouldn't waste as much time in religion class or sociology classes.

642 Kronocide  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 11:26:24am

Does Rush have a right to call Fluke a whore?

643 Killgore Trout  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 11:26:31am

re: #635 Kronocide
You certainly have the right to hassle advertisers. I fully support your right to do so, I'm just saying it's a bad idea.

But the delicious irony in all this is how the right is acting like their own caricature of the left that they've painted for years. Whiney, playing the victim, etc.

...and the left is acting more like the right. When I was a kid the strongest voices for censorship was the religious right, trying to dictate what can be said on radio and TV. Now the left has adopted the same game.

644 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 11:27:15am

re: #631 Gus

Scary.

Image: Trinity_LowRes.jpg

Heh.

And I know that formal logic isn't supposed to work in the case of the Trinity, but 3 persons still = 3 gods, sorry. ;)

645 Gus  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 11:28:22am

re: #644 Liberal Entity

Image: Trinity_LowRes.jpg

Heh.

And I know that formal logic isn't supposed to work in the case of the Trinity, but 3 person still = 3 gods, sorry. ;)

I thank God everyday that I was born an atheist.

//

646 Obdicut  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 11:28:30am

re: #634 Killgore Trout

He summarizes his central point at bout 2:00

No, he says something at 2:00 which you are saying is his central point. And what he is saying there is that it's important to preserve the right to have the outrageous views, to have them available to listen to-- not, in any way, that such views should be mainstreamed, or that people should not respond to them with disgust and hatred.

, He also talks about challenging one's own beliefs through free speech. Flat earth society, evolution, religion, etc.

Yes, as I already talked about, above.

He's not talking about government suppression.

Do you really not understand he's talking about Irving being in jail for Holocaust denial?

He's talking about the cultural support for the free exchange of ideas. "Don't take refuge in the false security of consensus"

But none of that is about not reacting to those ideas by vilifying them, or in any way rewarding those views. He's saying the outrageous views are valuable because they prevent the consensus view from becoming misunderstood through lack of counterpoint, not about the idea being in any way good on its own.

It is the one bit of the speech that you could possibly turn towards your idea, and you, for whatever reason, crown it as his main point, so much that you ignore the context of the criminalization of holocaust denial.

Seriously, man, you obviously didn't really comprehend the speech because you thought, in a speech about a censorship law in which he references other censorship laws, that he wasn't talking about censorship laws. Doesn't that at least give you pause, make you think "Perhaps I misunderstood this," and decide to re-evaluate your own position? You stated something that was absolutely, flatly wrong about the speech, and you were absolutely sure of it-- how can that not make you take stock and reconsider?

Don't seek the false solace of consensus, but don't seek the false solace of being a contrarian, either. There's nothing inherently good about a contrarian view.

647 jaunte  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 11:28:52am

re: #642 Kronocide

Does Rush have a right to call Fluke a whore?

He does, but he has to do it knowing that lots of people will tell his advertisers that he's a bad investment.

648 goddamnedfrank  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 11:28:57am

re: #634 Killgore Trout

He summarizes his central point at bout 2:00 , He also talks about challenging one's own beliefs through free speech. Flat earth society, evolution, religion, etc. He's not talking about government suppression. He's talking about the cultural support for the free exchange of ideas. "Don't take refuge in the false security of consensus"

Neither does he say that such speech should be economically sponsored through the audience's patronage.

649 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 11:29:10am

re: #628 Lidane

Who knew that ordinary people writing and tweeting to advertisers that they would take their business elsewhere because of Rush Limbaugh's gross slander of Sandra Fluke were part of the far left?

I'll bet that's news to the people who chose to take a stand.

You know, this is what gets me. We are people, all equal supposedly, and others try to diminish our importance by saying what we do doesn't matter, or is misguided. Such an insult. I'm allowed to express my feelings lawfully. Assholes are trying as always to shut up dissent. No way, actually it's making us more determined.

650 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 11:29:10am

re: #645 Gus

I thank God everyday that I was born an atheist.

//

Everybody is born an atheist.


///shitstorm

651 Sheila Broflovski  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 11:29:37am

re: #537 ReamWorks

One more outrageous outrage before I get to work:

The NY Times ran an editorial that basically said: "See! The people in Mad Men had 90% tax rates and they're perfectly happy! Therefore, our taxes can be 90%, too for the "rich"

[Link: www.nytimes.com...]

(In other news, they didn't question a Boston school districts decision to discard $500,000 worth of taxpayer-funded beef because a few crazy parents complained about "ammonia treatment." They didn't question the waste of taxpayer money. Not one sentence devoted to that.)

Wait, wait, does 90% tax rate mean that somebody who earned $100,000 only got to take home $10,000? Does that even make sense?

No, they got to take home the $100,000 but pay 90% on what was above the $100,000.

652 Gus  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 11:29:42am

re: #650 Liberal Entity

Everybody is born an atheist.

///shitstorm

Everyone also dies an atheist. I have faith in this.

//

653 William Barnett-Lewis  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 11:29:43am

Now for something a little different, JRR Tolkien tells off the Nazis:

[Link: www.lettersofnote.com...]

654 Obdicut  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 11:31:09am

re: #643 Killgore Trout

You certainly have the right to hassle advertisers. I fully support your right to do so, I'm just saying it's a bad idea.

Why do you continually pretend that advertisers don't want to know the opinion of the public? They spend billions every year to find that out.

655 Kronocide  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 11:31:42am

re: #643 Killgore Trout

You certainly have the right to hassle advertisers. I fully support your right to do so, I'm just saying it's a bad idea.

...and the left is acting more like the right. When I was a kid the strongest voices for censorship was the religious right, trying to dictate what can be said on radio and TV. Now the left has adopted the same game.

I find it interesting that making Rush accountable for the things he's saying is 'dictating what can be said on radio and TV.' You could say this campaign may be dictating what cannot be said, in this case implying a woman speaking to congress about an abortion related issue is a whore.

656 The Ghost of a Flea  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 11:32:57am

re: #634 Killgore Trout

He summarizes his central point at bout 2:00 , He also talks about challenging one's own beliefs through free speech. Flat earth society, evolution, religion, etc. He's not talking about government suppression. He's talking about the cultural support for the free exchange of ideas. "Don't take refuge in the false security of consensus"

Except that all ideas are easily tabulated into "the consensus" and "the dissent." Nor is all objection to dissent rooted in ontology of the consensus.

It also rings false to expect "free exchange of ideas" with people who have no interest in exchange. Limbaugh is not part of a debate: he's a demagogue that insults and name-calls anyone that doesn't echo his opinion. He literally shouts down anyone that disagrees with him on his radio show, then hangs up on them.

This is all very close to the canard "teach the controversy," which appropriates the idea of a positive dialectic between consensus and dissent and uses it as a lever, such that beliefs that form a closed, belief-derived structure gets to stand on equal footing with an open, tested/retested fact-derived structure.

657 Interesting Times  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 11:33:58am

This is hilarious. Rightwing droolers posting disgusting threats of violence - against Fluke, against Charles, against climate scientists, against anyone they consider "the other" - don't count as non-government threats against free speech, but people boycotting in an entirely civilized and legal way do. 9_9

658 Kronocide  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 11:35:55am

re: #647 jaunte

He does, but he has to do it knowing that lots of people will tell his advertisers that he's a bad investment.

Well, yes. I would say he does have a right to call a woman a whore.

He does not have a right to call a woman a whore on a radio station broadcasting to millions every week and not have any advertisers be campaigned by people offended by his First Amendment protected speech.

I just find it weird that the campaign to advertisers (First Amendment free speech mixed in with free market capitalism) is more concerning to KT than the offensive speech from Rush to begin with.

659 Gus  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 11:36:02am

re: #657 Interesting Times

This is hilarious. Rightwing droolers posting disgusting threats of violence - against Fluke, against Charles, against climate scientists, against anyone they consider "the other" - don't count as non-government threats against free speech, but people boycotting in an entirely civilized and legal way do. 9_9

I missed the memo. Apparently they handed out a memo that essentially instructed all conservatives to act like violent thugs.

660 goddamnedfrank  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 11:36:16am

re: #657 Interesting Times

This is hilarious. Rightwing droolers posting disgusting threats of violence - against Fluke, against Charles, against climate scientists, against anyone they consider "the other" - don't count as non-government threats against free speech, but people boycotting in an entirely civilized and legal way do. 9_9

Threats of violence only impoverish the national dialog when muslims do it.

661 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 11:37:01am

re: #651 Learned Mother of Zion

All I know is tonight's show is whoo anticipated. Hell for the past month I have my tv turning on at 6am on Sundays to watch the previous shows.

Can't wait.

662 Gus  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 11:38:29am

March 25, 1911

663 Talking Point Detective  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 11:40:40am

re: #643 Killgore Trout

You certainly have the right to hassle advertisers. I fully support your right to do so, I'm just saying it's a bad idea.

Why is it a bad idea to hassle advertisers? Should we not picket businesses whose practices we think are exploitative? Should we not denounce politicians whose rhetoric we consider offensive or inaccurate?

Don't you see a slight irony in that you're objecting to the exercise of free speech in the name of promoting free speech? Is there someone promoting state control over speech that I missed?

664 Sheila Broflovski  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 11:41:28am

re: #662 Gus

March 25, 1911

H&M fire, 2010

665 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 11:41:43am

How about, as long as the campaign is truthful, it's not bad?

666 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 11:42:03am

Hail Stan.

667 Talking Point Detective  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 11:42:45am

re: #607 goddamnedfrank

A boycott is people simply exercising their existing rights to free speech and association, they in no way trample on or violate the rights of others.

Can someone explain to me how this becomes a difficult concept to comprehend?

668 Kronocide  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 11:42:56am

I'd like an explanation of how the left is now acting like the right. It may take a while with all the convos going on but I'm patient.

669 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 11:43:22am

re: #643 Killgore Trout

You certainly have the right to hassle advertisers. I fully support your right to do so, I'm just saying it's a bad idea.

...and the left is acting more like the right. When I was a kid the strongest voices for censorship was the religious right, trying to dictate what can be said on radio and TV. Now the left has adopted the same game.

Is what Rush said a bad idea?

670 Gus  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 11:44:32am

re: #666 Liberal Entity

Hail Stan.

Hail Ollie!

671 jaunte  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 11:46:54am

re: #668 Kronocide

I think Fox News complaining about Media Matters being political is hilarious.

672 jaunte  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 11:48:25am
673 Obdicut  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 11:48:39am

re: #670 Gus

Hail Ollie!

And so another religious war begins.

674 justaminute  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 11:49:28am

I think the ability of the public to make a boycott successful is hard to achieve. As it is to maintain a public protest as in OWS. I think it celebrates our freedoms. Just ask the people of Iran.

675 austin_blue  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 11:49:59am

For your consideration:

[Link: www.nytimes.com...]

676 Kronocide  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 11:50:05am

re: #671 jaunte

I think Fox News complaining about Media Matters being political is hilarious.

Is there an equivalent to Media Matters on the right? That bases stories on what people or pundits actually said and honestly and properly interpret what they said?

Any Breitbart blog? No way.

677 Gus  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 11:50:10am

re: #671 jaunte

I think Fox News complaining about Media Matters being political is hilarious.

Yeah but Fox News is impartial and non-partisan!

//

678 AK-47%  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 11:51:57am

re: #674 justaminute

I think the ability of the public to make a boycott successful is hard to achieve. As it is to maintain a public protest as in OWS. I think it celebrates our freedoms. Just ask the people of Iran.

Remember the attempt to boycott sears over Ellen DeGeneris - it all but backfired. But there is no law that says one cannot try.

Public sentiment is a fickle b*tch and those who know how to manipulate it are the true power brokers of our time.

679 Kronocide  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 11:52:24am

re: #677 Gus

Yeah but Fox News is impartial and non-partisan!

//

FAIR and BALANCED (toward conservative ideology)

680 jaunte  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 11:53:08am

re: #679 Kronocide

Until it changes; then they will deny they supported the previous policy.

681 Gus  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 11:53:33am

re: #679 Kronocide

FAIR and BALANCED (toward conservative ideology)

I'm sure if teh left stopped bothering poor ol' Mr. Limbaugh that teh right would leave Media Matters alone.

//

682 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 11:54:03am

re: #673 Obdicut

And so another religious war begins.

Blah-sphemy.

683 Gus  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 11:55:14am

re: #682 Stаn

Blah-sphemy.

Please accept this laurel branch of peace with my hardy humbleness.

684 Kronocide  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 11:55:18am

re: #678 Second Amendment Renegation

Public sentiment is a fickle b*tch and those who know how to manipulate it are the true power brokers of our time.

Being a dick and saying outrageous things will pump up your Twitter followers and blog traffic almost as much as saying the right things and being a good person.

But some will sell their soul for the numbers and bullshit themselves into believing they're validated by those numbers.

685 jaunte  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 11:55:22am

re: #680 jaunte

Until it changes; then they will deny they supported the previous policy.

Youtube Video
686 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 11:55:56am

re: #667 Talking Point Detective

Can someone explain to me how this becomes a difficult concept to comprehend?

We have a contrarian in our midst. Logic is not being used. It's all about our reaction.

687 Gus  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 11:56:17am

None of this would be happening if the left just let Rush Limbaugh be!

//

688 Kronocide  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 11:56:44am

re: #680 jaunte

Until it changes; then they will deny they supported the previous policy.

Don't you dare ORWELL this thread. Unless you try and ORWELL and GODWIN it at the same time, which would be an ORWIN. Then I'd think you were cool.

689 The Ghost of a Flea  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 11:58:14am

re: #688 Kronocide

Don't you dare ORWELL this thread. Unless you try and ORWELL and GODWIN it at the same time, which would be an ORWIN. Then I'd think you were cool.

This thread has always been at war with Godwin's law.

690 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 11:58:25am

Contrarianism is good. Bad logic not so good. But it's part of the fun.

691 darthstar  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 11:58:33am

re: #637 Gus

Hilarious.

Yeah...it's always best to use a term of endearment before you kill someone.

692 justaminute  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 11:58:55am

re: #678 Second Amendment Renegation

Remember the attempt to boycott sears over Ellen DeGeneris - it all but backfired. But there is no law that says one cannot try.

Public sentiment is a fickle b*tch and those who know how to manipulate it are the true power brokers of our time.

As is public protest. I have read many posts wishing the Iranian people to stand up and overthrow their government. It has been shown to them through the government actions that it would result in imprisonment or torture and death. I think the instances of police abuse on OWS protesters should be a wake up call to us here at home, whether we believe in the protest or not. It's a slippery slope. IMHO

693 Killgore Trout  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 12:01:00pm

re: #658 Kronocide

I just find it weird that the campaign to advertisers (First Amendment free speech mixed in with free market capitalism) is more concerning to KT than the offensive speech from Rush to begin with.

It may seem strange to you but I think that's actually a fair assesment of my position. Rush's statement was, stupid crude and offensive. However the fall out of trying to shut down political speech, no matter how offensive you may find it, deteriorates out culture of tolerance and free speech. Both sides are working to silence the other and I don't think that's good for society.

694 Killgore Trout  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 12:03:33pm

“Fear of corrupting the mind of the younger generation is the loftiest form of cowardice.”
― Holbrook Jackson
/heh

695 allegro  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 12:03:37pm

re: #693 Killgore Trout

It may seem strange to you but I think that's actually a fair assesment of my position. Rush's statement was, stupid crude and offensive. However the fall out of trying to shut down political speech, no matter how offensive you may find it, deteriorates out culture of tolerance and free speech. Both sides are working to silence the other and I don't think that's good for society.

Blatantly lying about the content and purpose of what a woman has said in her report before Congress and referring to her as a slut and prostitute before demanding to see tapes of her performing sexual acts is not in anyone's book "political speech." WTF?

696 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 12:04:34pm

re: #693 Killgore Trout

You don't think Rush's outbursts have a chilling effect on free speech? Like, people having to think twice before speaking in "highly visible" locations on certain topics for the fear of being dragged through the mud?

697 jaunte  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 12:05:14pm

re: #696 Stаn

Established bullies have a big advantage.

698 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 12:05:19pm

re: #690 Stаn

Contrarianism is good. Bad logic not so good. But it's part of the fun.

I am so tired of it. Be on the side of good. Don't be an asshole. Those long taught beliefs.

699 The Ghost of a Flea  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 12:05:24pm

re: #693 Killgore Trout

It may seem strange to you but I think that's actually a fair assesment of my position. Rush's statement was, stupid crude and offensive. However the fall out of trying to shut down political speech, no matter how offensive you may find it, deteriorates out culture of tolerance and free speech. Both sides are working to silence the other and I don't think that's good for society.

What part of "she's a whore and you shouldn't listen to her she's a lying whore" is political speech?

And you're neglecting the fact that Rush was directly telling his audience to ignore and/or silence Sandra Fluke.

700 Obdicut  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 12:05:38pm

re: #693 Killgore Trout

Do you think that Rush completely lying about Fluke's testimony while purposefully smearing her-- and smearing all women who use birth control has any negative consequences at all?

701 Gus  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 12:05:41pm

re: #693 Killgore Trout

It may seem strange to you but I think that's actually a fair assesment of my position. Rush's statement was, stupid crude and offensive. However the fall out of trying to shut down political speech, no matter how offensive you may find it, deteriorates out culture of tolerance and free speech. Both sides are working to silence the other and I don't think that's good for society.

So intimidating, slandering, libeling, and defaming a congressional witness is good for society?

702 Killgore Trout  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 12:07:17pm

re: #696 Stаn

You don't think Rush's outbursts have a chilling effect on free speech? Like, people having to think twice before speaking in "highly visible" locations on certain topics for the fear of being dragged through the mud?

I don't think so. It is shitty for a big media mogul to attack a civilian like that but that's what free speech is all about. If you write and article, post something on a blog or give testimony to congress then people are free to criticize it, even if they do it unfairly or crudely.

703 blueraven  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 12:07:24pm

re: #676 Kronocide

Is there an equivalent to Media Matters on the right? That bases stories on what people or pundits actually said and honestly and properly interpret what they said?

Any Breitbart blog? No way.

Here is The Right's answer to media matters
Media Research Center...ran by Brent Bozell

[Link: www.mrc.org...]

you decide

704 Killgore Trout  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 12:08:10pm

re: #700 Obdicut

Do you think that Rush completely lying about Fluke's testimony while purposefully smearing her-- and smearing all women who use birth control has any negative consequences at all?

Yes, it makes his audience more ignorant.

705 blueraven  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 12:08:51pm

re: #702 Killgore Trout

I don't think so. It is shitty for a big media mogul to attack a civilian like that but that's what free speech is all about. If you write and article, post something on a blog or give testimony to congress then people are free to criticize it, even if they do it unfairly or crudely.

Criticize? That's not what Rush did KT. Be honest.

706 allegro  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 12:09:26pm

re: #702 Killgore Trout

I don't think so. It is shitty for a big media mogul to attack a civilian like that but that's what free speech is all about. If you write and article, post something on a blog or give testimony to congress then people are free to criticize it, even if they do it unfairly or crudely.

Yet somehow you think it's a "bad idea" to criticize that criticism. Are you really that much of a Rush apologist that you are unaware of your hypocrisy here?

707 goddamnedfrank  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 12:09:49pm

re: #693 Killgore Trout

It may seem strange to you but I think that's actually a fair assesment of my position. Rush's statement was, stupid crude and offensive. However the fall out of trying to shut down political speech, no matter how offensive you may find it, deteriorates out culture of tolerance and free speech. Both sides are working to silence the other and I don't think that's good for society.

Except that nobody's trying to silence Rush, they've just decided to stop rewarding him with their own purchasing power. Rush is a rich man, he can self finance his own show until the end of time if he wants to, or stand on the street corner and yell along with everyone else. People in free association choosing to cease buying from Rush's advertisers and communicating that fact in no way "shuts down" his political speech. Our "culture and tolerance" of free speech are in no way predicated on people's obligation to continue financially supporting it in silence.

708 Obdicut  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 12:10:20pm

re: #702 Killgore Trout

I don't think so. It is shitty for a big media mogul to attack a civilian like that but that's what free speech is all about.

Free speech is his right to do so. It has nothing to do with his right to remain a big media mogul after doing it. That is the argument you are simply refusing to engage with.

This is part of why I continually refer to you as a performance artist. Just like you previously claimed you were against all violence, while celebrating the violence done to the female protesters at OWS, you are now claiming that free speech is awesome because you should constantly test your views against opposing views, but you are not even paying attention to the arguments others present you with, you're simply dismissing them and restating your position, over and over.

And you completely misrepresented the contents of a Hitchens speech while lambasting me for not understanding it.

709 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 12:10:24pm

re: #702 Killgore Trout

I don't think so. It is shitty for a big media mogul to attack a civilian like that but that's what free speech is all about. If you write and article, post something on a blog or give testimony to congress then people are free to criticize it, even if they do it unfairly or crudely.

But boycott against Rush is also what the free speech is all about. You can't have one without the other.

710 Kronocide  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 12:11:06pm

re: #693 Killgore Trout

It may seem strange to you but I think that's actually a fair assesment of my position. Rush's statement was, stupid crude and offensive. However the fall out of trying to shut down political speech, no matter how offensive you may find it, deteriorates out culture of tolerance and free speech. Both sides are working to silence the other and I don't think that's good for society.

You quantify the blowback as Rush being 'shut down.' That's where we clearly disagree. He's not being shut down at all. People are exercising their free speech in calling his speech 'hate speech' and lobbying his advertisers to drop him. He is still broadcasting and will continue to do so. He can call women sluts all he wants, but he does not have a right to do it on a radio station unless he himself buys the airtime and frequencies to do it. That is rhetoric he himself has used many times to combat his characterization of left censorship.

Rush is not being shut down, his political speech is not being shut down. He's being countered using the free market. On the free market of ideas, almost monopolized by his massive amount of stations and air time, his ideas are running afoul of the market.

I fail to see how this event is the left acting like the right.

711 Gus  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 12:11:28pm

Image: 20080202231407!Beating-a-dead-horse.gif

712 Killgore Trout  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 12:12:12pm

re: #706 allegro

Yet somehow you think it's a "bad idea" to criticize that criticism. Are you really that much of a Rush apologist that you are unaware of your hypocrisy here?

I think he should certainly be criticized. Openly and loudly. That's what the free and open exchange of ideas is all about. I don't support efforts to have him taken off the air. That get too close to censorship for my taste.

713 Obdicut  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 12:12:13pm

re: #711 Gus

I prefer the thwackety.

Image: beatdeadhorse.gif

714 Gus  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 12:12:18pm

Image: a1192481-155-dead-horse.gif

715 goddamnedfrank  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 12:12:46pm

re: #702 Killgore Trout

I don't think so. It is shitty for a big media mogul to attack a civilian like that but that's what free speech is all about.

Why is that what free speech is all about but ordinary people changing their buying habits so as not to financially reward it, and then communicating that fact somehow not?

716 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 12:13:14pm

re: #712 Killgore Trout

I think he should certainly be criticized. Openly and loudly. That's what the free and open exchange of ideas is all about. I don't support efforts to have him taken off the air. That get too close to censorship for my taste.

But that's just criticizing him to his employers.

717 jaunte  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 12:13:30pm
718 Kronocide  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 12:14:04pm

re: #699 The Ghost of a Flea

What part of "she's a whore and you shouldn't listen to her she's a lying whore" is political speech?

And you're neglecting the fact that Rush was directly telling his audience to ignore and/or silence Sandra Fluke.

Calling fire in a crowded theater = calling a woman a whore from a bully pulpit?

A reasonable line of discussion I've not pressed on yet.

719 Lidane  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 12:14:05pm

re: #654 Obdicut

Why do you continually pretend that advertisers don't want to know the opinion of the public? They spend billions every year to find that out.

I think that's what makes me laugh the most about this pointless wanking about how boycotts are somehow a threat to free speech.

Advertisers spend a shitload of money every year to find out what their customers think -- about them, about their products, about their advertising campaigns, etc. Why would they be surprised and/or threatened by someone telling them that advertising on a particular show is offensive to them?

And I'm still waiting for a valid explanation of how private citizens expressing their opinions to a bunch of advertisers somehow harms free speech. Limbaugh is still on the air, last I checked. He's not in jail and he won't be arrested for saying any of the things he did. He's still getting paid. What's the problem again?

720 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 12:14:08pm

Image: no-no-no-no-no.gif

721 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 12:14:26pm

re: #717 jaunte

I'm pretty sure it's just Rev. Manning. /

722 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 12:17:55pm

re: #704 Killgore Trout

Yes, it makes his audience more ignorant.

Oh no. Much more. Contraceptives are now a talking point in 2012, and us whores must now pay for it ourselves. It's working propaganda that hurts people.

723 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 12:18:57pm

re: #712 Killgore Trout

I think he should certainly be criticized. Openly and loudly. That's what the free and open exchange of ideas is all about. I don't support efforts to have him taken off the air. That get too close to censorship for my taste.

Also, why you don't take the power differential into account? If you had your way, then nothing Fluke said would have made any dent in Rush's career and life, while Rush could easily if not ruin her, then make her life uncomfortable (for if there are no influence mechanisms, then calling her a slut is the least Rush would do).

724 Lidane  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 12:19:10pm

re: #722 Hoodies for Justice. T

Oh no. Much more. Contraceptives are now a talking point in 2012, and us whores must now pay for it ourselves. It's working propaganda that hurts people.

Pfft. We're just women. Who cares about us?

As long as no one dares to express their opinion to an advertiser and possibly lead that advertiser to go elsewhere, it's all good. Don't you get that? We can have all the opinions we want, we just can't DO anything with them.

725 justaminute  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 12:19:21pm

re: #712 Killgore Trout

I think he should certainly be criticized. Openly and loudly. That's what the free and open exchange of ideas is all about. I don't support efforts to have him taken off the air. That get too close to censorship for my taste.

How does the public have an open exchange of ideas with Rush? He doesn't allow it on his show. If he did allow it maybe you would have a point. Plus we probably would still be operating under the "Fairness Doctrine" if that were true.

726 The Ghost of a Flea  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 12:19:44pm

re: #719 Lidane

And I'm still waiting for a valid explanation of how private citizens expressing their opinions to a bunch of advertisers somehow harms free speech. Limbaugh is still on the air, last I checked. He's not in jail and he won't be arrested for saying any of the things he did. He's still getting paid. What's the problem again?

We silenced his valuable contribution to the worldwide discussion of whorespotting.

727 Obdicut  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 12:23:06pm

re: #704 Killgore Trout

Yes, it makes his audience more ignorant.

Does his audience becoming more ignorant make our society richer or poorer?

728 Kronocide  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 12:23:22pm

Charles: Dan Reihl stopped paying attention to you long ago. I think he said that in his 54th tweet about you in the last 24 hrs.

729 goddamnedfrank  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 12:26:18pm

re: #704 Killgore Trout

Yes, it makes his audience more ignorant.

Is Rush's audience made more ignorant by listening to him or do they listen to him because they're fundamentally ignorant?

Either way, how does ordinary people refusing to financially reward him with their buying habits quash his free speech? Is speech no longer free when it ceases to be sponsored?

730 jaunte  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 12:26:41pm

re: #728 Kronocide

Ponytail-bicycle-training-wheels-third-grade!

731 MittDoesNotCompute  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 12:39:30pm

re: #702 Killgore Trout

I don't think so. It is shitty for a big media mogul to attack a civilian like that but that's what free speech is all about. If you write and article, post something on a blog or give testimony to congress then people are free to criticize it, even if they do it unfairly or crudely.

I'm sorry, KT, but your position on this is full of holes and reeks of bullshit.

You can honestly say with a straight face that, while Rush's comments about Fluke were "shitty", people who don't like what he said or how he said it shouldn't use the only way to get his and ClearChannel's attention (which is complaints to the advertisers)? I'm sorry, but the only thing people like Rush and the companies who employ them understand is the almighty dollar; make a dent there and they start getting the message loud and clear.

I can understand, to an extent, defending the "home team", but what Rush said is so beyond the pale, there's no logical or sensible way to defend the man or what he said.

732 Killgore Trout  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 12:54:33pm

re: #731 talon_262

I can understand, to an extent, defending the "home team", but what Rush said is so beyond the pale, there's no logical or sensible way to defend the man or what he said.

If you think I'm a wingnut or some kind of conservative sympathizer you're sadly mistaken. I don't listen to his show but I don;t care if other people do. I have no desire to decide what other can listen to on the radio or financially punish people I disagree with.

733 Mattand  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 1:06:47pm

re: #732 Killgore Trout

If you think I'm a wingnut or some kind of conservative sympathizer you're sadly mistaken. I don't listen to his show but I don;t care if other people do. I have no desire to decide what other can listen to on the radio or financially punish people I disagree with.

Businesses are perfectly free to advertise with Rush. If they want to be associated with the kind of ignorant misogyny he displayed regarding Sandra Fluke, no one's stopping them.

734 Talking Point Detective  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 1:09:02pm

re: #707 goddamnedfrank

Except that nobody's trying to silence Rush, they've just decided to stop rewarding him with their own purchasing power. Rush is a rich man, he can self finance his own show until the end of time if he wants to, or stand on the street corner and yell along with everyone else. People in free association choosing to cease buying from Rush's advertisers and communicating that fact in no way "shuts down" his political speech. Our "culture and tolerance" of free speech are in no way predicated on people's obligation to continue financially supporting it in silence.

Can someone explain to me how this becomes a difficult concept to understand?

This is just bizarre.

735 MittDoesNotCompute  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 1:11:28pm

re: #732 Killgore Trout

If you think I'm a wingnut or some kind of conservative sympathizer you're sadly mistaken. I don't listen to his show but I don;t care if other people do. I have no desire to decide what other can listen to on the radio or financially punish people I disagree with.

You might not be a wingnut, but on this, I still think you're dead wrong.

Rush (or anyone else) shouldn't get a pass on atrocious comments and behavior, simply because they have a huge audience.

736 Talking Point Detective  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 1:13:24pm

re: #707 goddamnedfrank

At this point I really have to question whether or not KT believes that boycotting a show, or pressuring advertisers to withdraw their spots from his show, is the equivalent of shutting down free speech, or whether he's just doing this to advance some bizarre mix of delusions of grandeur and a martyr complex.

I was out of the country when Mahre was taken off the air for saying (paraphrasing) that the terrorists who piloted planes into the WTC weren't cowards.

Was there outcry on the left that taking him off the air was an attack on free speech?

737 The Ghost of a Flea  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 1:13:42pm

re: #732 Killgore Trout

I have no desire to decide what other can listen to on the radio or financially punish people I disagree with.

No one's stopping people from listening to Rush, and not giving someone your support and money is not "punishment."

738 Mattand  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 1:13:50pm

re: #734 Talking Point Detective

Can someone explain to me how this becomes a difficult concept to understand?

This is just bizarre.

Ever been to a party where someone is completely out-of-control but no one wants to say something because that would be "rude"?

That's what's going on here.

739 Mattand  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 1:17:01pm

re: #737 The Ghost of a Flea

No one's stopping people from listening to Rush, and not giving someone your support and money is not "punishment."

What's sad about all of this is that a year from now, Rush will still be on-the-air blasting his dog-whistle bullshit like he always has. He has a large audience in no small part because he speaks to a segment of our society who consider MLK Jr and Susan B. Anthony history's greatest monsters.

Clear Channel knows this and is just waiting out the storm.

740 Talking Point Detective  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 1:18:27pm

re: #732 Killgore Trout

. I have no desire to decide what other can listen to on the radio or financially punish people I disagree with.

It's been said by others, but seriously, that's basically a non sequitur wrapped up in a straw man.

Who is suggesting that anyone "decide" what others "can listen to" or that anyone should "punish" people they disagree with?

741 Killgore Trout  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 1:20:16pm

re: #739 mattand

What's sad about all of this is that a year from now, Rush will still be on-the-air blasting his dog-whistle bullshit like he always has. He has a large audience in no small part because he speaks to a segment of our society who consider MLK Jr and Susan B. Anthony history's greatest monsters.

Clear Channel knows this and is just waiting out the storm.

Probably true. More importantly that the advertisers know that the activists have short attentions spans and will soon be off chasing the next outrageous outrage.

742 Talking Point Detective  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 1:22:03pm

re: #738 mattand

Ever been to a party where someone is completely out-of-control but no one wants to say something because that would be "rude"?

That's what's going on here.

Except that people are being pretty open about telling him that he's out of control.

There's something else going on here. My guess is there's some "existential threat" to KT's core ideological perspective, and that's why he's pursuing some agenda in a basically unrelated realm.

Only by humongous logical jump can boycotting or protesting advertisers be equated to an attack on free speech.

743 Talking Point Detective  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 1:23:01pm

re: #741 Killgore Trout

Probably true. More importantly that the advertisers know that the activists have short attentions spans and will soon be off chasing the next outrageous outrage.

So then you agree this has nothing to do with a serious threat to free speech? So what have you been posting about, then?

744 Killgore Trout  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 1:23:02pm

re: #740 Talking Point Detective

It's been said by others, but seriously, that's basically a non sequitur wrapped up in a straw man.

Who is suggesting that anyone "decide" what others "can listen to" or that anyone should "punish" people they disagree with?

That's the whole point of intimidating advertisers. To make the show financially difficult for stations to broadcast it. I don't listen but I also don't care if the show is broadcast if other people want to listen it's fine by me.

745 Mattand  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 1:23:56pm

re: #741 Killgore Trout

Probably true. More importantly that the advertisers know that the activists have short attentions spans and will soon be off chasing the next outrageous outrage.

Just so we're clear, I'm not saying the boycotts are wrong. Quite frankly, I hope they cripple the show. You can only get so far financially running PSAs. Limbaugh said some truly despicable, unconscionable horseshit that deserves an ass-kicking.

Whether they'll be effective or not, I'm not hopeful. But then, I'm not known for my optimism.

746 Killgore Trout  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 1:24:42pm

re: #745 mattand

Just so we're clear, I'm not saying the boycotts are wrong. Quite frankly, I hope they cripple the show. You can only get so far financially running PSAs. Limbaugh said some truly despicable, unconscionable horseshit that deserves an ass-kicking.

Whether they'll be effective or not, I'm not hopeful. But then, I'm not known for my optimism.

Good luck with that.

747 Talking Point Detective  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 1:26:53pm

re: #744 Killgore Trout

That's the whole point of intimidating advertisers. To make the show financially difficult for stations to broadcast it. I don't listen but I also don't care if the show is broadcast if other people want to listen it's fine by me.

"Intimidating advertisers?" Sorry, but that is just bizarre. It's using the power of the marketplace to tell advertisers what you want as a consumer. No one forces them to be in business. No one forces them to change what shows they run their spots on. This isn't intimidation. They can advertise anywhere they goddam please. This is about using their profit motivation and aligning their profits with your interests.

748 Talking Point Detective  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 1:29:30pm

KT -

Out of curiosity - how did you react when Mahre said that the terrorists piloting the planes weren't cowards? Did you attack him? Did you think he should be taken off the air?

749 Mattand  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 1:30:10pm

re: #744 Killgore Trout

That's the whole point of intimidating advertisers. To make the show financially difficult for stations to broadcast it. I don't listen but I also don't care if the show is broadcast if other people want to listen it's fine by me.

I agree with this, believe or not. But as has been pointed out, advertisers are not being prevented from working with Limbaugh. What's been pointed out is what an unrepentant liar and general prick he's been over this episode.

If advertisers are comfortable working with someone like that, more power to them.

You seem like a smart person, but man, you're being deliberately dense about this. You keep building this quasi-straw man about free speech which doesn't hold up.

750 Killgore Trout  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 1:33:16pm

re: #748 Talking Point Detective

KT -

Out of curiosity - how did you react when Mahre said that the terrorists piloting the planes weren't terrorists? Did you attack him? Did you think he should be taken off the air?

I don't recall my reaction at the time. I heard about his remarks but never watched with show.

751 Killgore Trout  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 1:34:20pm

re: #750 Killgore Trout

I don't recall my reaction at the time. I heard about his remarks but never watched with show.

I was probably offended but never thought to call anyone demanding he be fired.

752 Mattand  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 1:34:26pm

re: #746 Killgore Trout

Good luck with that.

LOL! The flip side to all of this is my track record for often being wrong. So who knows? Maybe calling an innocent woman a whore to radio audience of millions will have repercussions.

You don't have a problem with that, do you?

753 Talking Point Detective  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 1:38:12pm

re: #751 Killgore Trout

I was probably offended but never thought to call anyone demanding he be fired.

Demanding he be fired? How does someone who has no influence in a personnel decision "demand" that someone be fired?

My guess - judging from interactions with you related to 9/11 issues in the past, and from the overall nature of this website in those days - is that you had absolutely no problem when he got canned, and in fact felt that he deserved it. I highly doubt that you felt his getting canned was some kind of attack on free speech.

Obviously, all hypothetical - but I would imagine that if you gave it some thought you could give a fairly accurate representation of your view at the time on the issue.

754 The Ghost of a Flea  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 1:40:12pm

re: #741 Killgore Trout

Probably true. More importantly that the advertisers know that the activists have short attentions spans and will soon be off chasing the next outrageous outrage.

Your concern mask is slipping and you're heading back into caricaturing the people you don't like.

755 Talking Point Detective  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 1:52:43pm

re: #750 Killgore Trout

I don't recall my reaction at the time. I heard about his remarks but never watched with show.

And BTW - I never watched the show either (and I was out of the country when it all went down), but that doesn't mean that I don't remember the issue - or that I don't remember how I reacted at the time.

At the time, I felt that his getting canned was a reflection of the obvious - if you're a public figure that is dependent on currying favor with advertisers, and you make a comment that will obviously offend people (that is "politically incorrect), there will be consequences. It has nothing at all to do with freedom of speech. It has to do with tolerance for differing viewpoints, and of that I will say we are in short supply, but those are quite different issues and conflating the two doesn't help. In fact, it hurts. Making the reaction to Limbaugh into "concern" about free speech is nothing other than rightwing, partisan rhetoric.

756 Killgore Trout  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 2:00:53pm

re: #755 Talking Point Detective

Making the reaction to Limbaugh into "concern" about free speech is nothing other than rightwing, partisan rhetoric.

I don't think so. I'd much rather have my side (the left) be tolerant and supportive of free speech, no matter how distasteful. What I see is growing fear and hate on the left. I know it's an election year so things get amped up but I think it's unhealthy to keep fear and hate as political motivation. Let Rush keep his show, he's probably going to anyways. The efforts to get him kicked off the air only reflect poorly on the left for attempting it. Leave that stuff to the religious right. Limbaugh's stupid show is nothing to be afraid of. Let it be.

757 Obdicut  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 2:03:46pm

re: #756 Killgore Trout

Limbaugh's show, which you've admitted makes his audience more ignorant, has actual effects in making people more likely to support legislation banning contraception coverage, and in general promotes a misogynistic attitude.

Again, the attitude that propaganda is harmless is an innately foolish one. No one will ever be convinced by it who has the slightest knowledge of human history. Nobody who understand what Hitchens is talking about when he talks about the effects of religion will ever buy it, either.

758 goddamnedfrank  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 2:07:18pm
Meanwhile, everybody is getting ready for the lovely time they will have at the Beijing Olympics. If there could be a single demand that would fuse almost all the human rights demands of the contemporary world into one, it would be the call to boycott or cancel this disgusting celebration.

-Christopher Hitchens, 2007

759 Mattand  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 2:08:43pm

re: #756 Killgore Trout

I don't think so. I'd much rather have my side be tolerant and supportive of free speech, no matter how distasteful. What I see is growing fear and hate on the left. I know it's an election year so things get amped up but I think it's unhealthy to keep fear and hate as political motivation. Let Rush keep his show, he's probably going to anyways. The efforts to get him kicked off the air only reflect poorly on the left for attempting it. Leave that stuff to the religious right. Limbaugh's stupid show is nothing to be afraid of. Let it be.

You are seriously going to decry fear and hate as political motivation yet insist everyone turn a blind eye to Limbaugh, who builds his show on that foundation?

That's a load of horseshit and you know it.

760 The Ghost of a Flea  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 2:08:57pm

re: #756 Killgore Trout

I don't think so. I'd much rather have my side (the left) be tolerant and supportive of free speech, no matter how distasteful. What I see is growing fear and hate on the left.

You're seeing what you want to see.

761 Obdicut  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 2:09:28pm

re: #758 goddamnedfrank

To be fair, that's a boycott of an event, due to the participation of a regime that takes actual actions.

However, after browsing through Hitchens writings, I can't find a single bit of support for the idea that he would be in any way uncomfortable with a 'boycott'-- really, just contacting Rush's advertisers and saying IF they continue to advertise with him, then their reputation will suffer-- based on someone's irresponsible speech.

762 Talking Point Detective  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 2:09:38pm

re: #756 Killgore Trout

I don't think so. I'd much rather have my side (the left) be tolerant and supportive of free speech, no matter how distasteful. What I see is growing fear and hate on the left. I know it's an election year so things get amped up but I think it's unhealthy to keep fear and hate as political motivation. Let Rush keep his show, he's probably going to anyways. The efforts to get him kicked off the air only reflect poorly on the left for attempting it. Leave that stuff to the religious right. Limbaugh's stupid show is nothing to be afraid of. Let it be.

That is a different rhetoric than saying that lobbying to get him off the air is an attack on free speech.

I agree that fear and hatred are ineffective political strategies, and "the left" does itself damage when it employs hateful tactics that stoke fear.

But efforts to get him kicked off is not attacking free speech. Conflating the two, I believe, actually does much more damage to political discourse than pressuring advertisers. Saying that pressuring advertisers is attacking free speech is holding an important concept like free speech hostage to political expediency.

763 Killgore Trout  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 2:14:33pm

re: #762 Talking Point Detective

That is a different rhetoric than saying that lobbying to get him off the air is an attack on free speech.

I agree that fear and hatred are ineffective political strategies, and "the left" does itself damage when it employs hateful tactics that stoke fear.

But efforts to get him kicked off is not attacking free speech. Conflating the two, I believe, actually does much more damage to political discourse than pressuring advertisers. Saying that pressuring advertisers is attacking free speech is holding an important concept like free speech hostage to political expediency.

I'm not just talking about free speech in the Constitutional sense. Free speech can be hindered by economic boycotts, social pressures, intimidation, threats, etc. I'm talking about the larger context of cultural support for the free exchange of ideas.

764 jaunte  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 2:16:47pm

re: #763 Killgore Trout

the free exchange of ideas

I don't think anyone has accused Rush Limbaugh of that.

765 Talking Point Detective  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 2:19:31pm

re: #763 Killgore Trout

I'm not just talking about free speech in the Constitutional sense. Free speech can be hindered by economic boycotts, social pressures, intimidation, threats, etc. I'm talking about the larger context of cultural support for the free exchange of ideas.

You're conflating two concepts that have an extremely important distinction, without being clear.

If you stick to the language you've switched over to now, I might disagree with you to a certain extent, but I don't think that it's facile reasoning.

The bottom line is that a free exchange of ideas should be prioritized. When "the left" leaves itself open to attack that it is intolerant of a free exchange of ideas, it sets itself up as an easy, and effective target, from the right. We have seen this over and over, and as the rightwing media gets more and more power, it becomes an even more powerful right wing weapon.

I don't see the Limbaugh issue in such stark terms (in other words, as an example of "intimidation"), but there the difference is one more of degree. When you equate the issue with Limbaugh to an attack on free speech, I can't help but react that it is specious reasoning - and you have to know that it echoes, almost verbatim, the rhetoric of right wing extremists.

766 The Ghost of a Flea  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 2:20:32pm

re: #763 Killgore Trout

I'm not just talking about free speech in the Constitutional sense. Free speech can be hindered by economic boycotts, social pressures, intimidation, threats, etc. I'm talking about the larger context of cultural support for the free exchange of ideas.

And Rush condemning and invalidating Sandra Fluke as a whore doesn't count as application of social pressure (slut shaming), his advocation of mocking and ignoring her isn't social pressures, the insults and threats thrown at her by Rush supporters isn't intimidation and threats, and the whole enchilada--a microcosm of refusing to listen to someone because you don't want to hear them and demanding others do the same--isn't a giant case of shutting down free exchange of ideas?

767 goddamnedfrank  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 2:22:44pm

re: #763 Killgore Trout

I'm not just talking about free speech in the Constitutional sense. Free speech can be hindered by economic boycotts, social pressures, intimidation, threats, etc. I'm talking about the larger context of cultural support for the free exchange of ideas.

The speech itself isn't being hindered though, it's still free, and lumping threats of violence in with economic boycotts demonstrates your continued intellectual dishonesty. Your entire position is one big smirking deception.

768 Mattand  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 2:23:38pm

re: #763 Killgore Trout

I'm not just talking about free speech in the Constitutional sense. Free speech can be hindered by economic boycotts, social pressures, intimidation, threats, etc. I'm talking about the larger context of cultural support for the free exchange of ideas.

I am so sick of this "you're assaulting my free speech" martyrdom act from conservatives. Because at the end of the day, Limbaugh is the real victim here.

Limbaugh can finance his own show, radio or TV, at this point. He can go on the web and broadcast as much as he wants, when he wants. He could write another book and publish it through Lulu or electronically.

Rush is not lacking for venues to speak freely and no one is stopping him from doing it.

And how many times does this need to be repeated: Rush used his free speech to call a woman a whore because she spoke her mind. People are using free speech to let his advertisers know this is who they're doing business with.

What are you not getting about this?

769 Talking Point Detective  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 2:25:38pm

re: #768 mattand

I am so sick of this "you're assaulting my free speech" martyrdom act from conservatives. Because at the end of the day, Limbaugh is the real victim here.

Limbaugh can finance his own show, radio or TV, at this point. He can go on the web and broadcast as much as he wants, when he wants. He could write another book and publish it through Lulu or electronically.

Rush is not lacking for venues to speak freely and no one is stopping him from doing it.

And how many times does this need to be repeated: Rush used his free speech to call a woman a whore because she spoke her mind. People are using free speech to let his advertisers know this is who their doing business with.

What are you not getting about this?

For the right wing, it's all about being the "victim," isn't it? Even beyond the through the looking glass reversal of reality, it's just so pathetic.

770 Killgore Trout  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 2:29:37pm

re: #768 mattand

And how many times does this need to be repeated: Rush used his free speech to call a woman a whore because she spoke her mind. People are using free speech to let his advertisers know this is who their doing business with.

What are you not getting about this?

I understand your position and support your right to call advertisers if you want to. I'm saying that it probably won't get his show cancelled and makes you look intolerant by trying to get his show cancelled and vindictive by trying to punish him financially. Rush's statement was a great PR opportunity for the left which has been tainted by the overreaction of trying to get him taken off the air.

771 Killgore Trout  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 2:31:08pm

re: #769 Talking Point Detective

For the right wing, it's all about being the "victim," isn't it? Even beyond the through the looking glass reversal of reality, it's just so pathetic.

The revolving door between the victim and the bully is another issue I have. The victim becomes a bully all too easily and I'm not going down that road.

772 Obdicut  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 2:31:22pm

re: #770 Killgore Trout

Do you actually no understand that the point isn't to punish him financially, but to demonstrate that language of that harmful sort isn't tolerated?

I forget, are you back to thinking all speech is harmless again?

773 Obdicut  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 2:31:48pm

re: #771 Killgore Trout

The revolving door between the victim and the bully is another issue I have. The victim becomes a bully all too easily and I'm not going down that road.

How do you square all this with Hitchens virulent intolerance for religion, among many other subjects?

774 Mattand  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 2:33:10pm

re: #769 Talking Point Detective

For the right wing, it's all about being the "victim," isn't it? Even beyond the through the looking glass reversal of reality, it's just so pathetic.

Swear to God, they're like a broken fucking record.

KT reminds me of a friend of mine I've mentioned here before. This guy is a born-again "moderate" who despises Obama and bristles when you call out Republicans on their bullshit (the debt ceiling hostage taking, for example).

This guy's new mantra is both the left and right are equally bad. Which isn't a nuanced postion, it's spineless fence sitting. My theory is that my friend realizes how batshit the modren GOP/conservative movement is, but can't bring himself to admit it. So he goes all Magical Balance Fairy.

I see a lot of that in KT's responses. Tepid admonition of Limbaugh, but since he's conservative, he'll fall back to a variant of Reagan's 11th Commandment; thus all the concern trolling over the "left" crushing poor Rush's free speech.

I'm just waiting for the obligatory "left wing media" complaint next.

775 goddamnedfrank  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 2:34:56pm

re: #770 Killgore Trout

I'm saying that it probably won't get his show cancelled and makes you look intolerant by trying to get his show cancelled and vindictive by trying to punish him financially.

Much better to play act the disaffected druid and hide behind rhetorical illusions.

776 Interesting Times  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 2:34:56pm

re: #770 Killgore Trout

I'm saying that it probably won't get his show cancelled and makes you look intolerant by trying to get his show cancelled and vindictive by trying to punish him financially.

Do you think the children in this story were wrong, then?

777 Killgore Trout  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 2:37:00pm

re: #772 Obdicut

Do you actually no understand that the point isn't to punish him financially, but to demonstrate that language of that harmful sort isn't tolerated?

Maybe you should be more tolerant.

778 Obdicut  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 2:41:41pm

re: #777 Killgore Trout

Maybe you should be more tolerant.

What is the virtue of being more tolerant of speech that actively spread intolerance, fear, disinformation, and lies?

And are you ever, ever going to deal with the fact that advertisers actively solicit-- spending billions of dollars to do so-- the opinions of the public? Or have you not figured out which luminary's views you'd like to misrepresent in order to counter that yet?

779 Mattand  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 2:41:43pm

re: #770 Killgore Trout

I understand your position and support your right to call advertisers if you want to. I'm saying that it probably won't get his show cancelled and makes you look intolerant by trying to get his show cancelled and vindictive by trying to punish him financially. Rush's statement was a great PR opportunity for the left which has been tainted by the overreaction of trying to get him taken off the air.

Rush's statement was a great PR opportunity?

He accused an innocent woman of being whore because he didn't understand what was being discussed.

I'm not sure if you're a master of understatement or just incredibly insensitive.

780 Killgore Trout  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 2:42:08pm

re: #776 Interesting Times

Do you think the children in this story were wrong, then?

What a strange story. I googled the name. Is this written by the founder of The Onion? I think it's satire.

781 Talking Point Detective  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 2:42:25pm

re: #774 mattand

Tepid admonition of Limbaugh, but since he's conservative, he'll fall back to a variant of Reagan's 11th Commandment; thus all the concern trolling over the "left" crushing poor Rush's free speech.

I'm just waiting for the obligatory "left wing media" complaint next.

It's the "concern trolling" that's a dead giveaway - and it's what undermines any legitimacy to his criticism of left-wing intolerance, in my view.

You can't "concern troll" with ludicrous shit like people supporting rapes and stabbings, and people attacking "free speech," and then come back and try to have a sane discussion about left wing intolerance. Such rhetoric shows that you don't know shit about the left wing, and that you're arguing from a media stereotype (or, perhaps, a personal obsession with hippies.)

782 Obdicut  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 2:43:25pm

re: #779 mattand

He did say that he didn't think there should be a boycott because the subject wasn't important enough-- as compared to racial discrimination, for example. Such things are, of course, subjective, though there's obviously no particular reason why endorsing racial discrimination is somehow more corruptive than Rush's misogyny.

783 Interesting Times  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 2:43:59pm

re: #780 Killgore Trout

What a strange story. I googled the name. Is this written by the founder of The Onion? I think it's satire.

Do you think the children as depicted did the wrong thing?

784 Killgore Trout  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 2:44:55pm

re: #780 Killgore Trout

What a strange story. I googled the name. Is this written by the founder of The Onion? I think it's satire.

I also suspect that story is spoofing your point about ostracizing and alienating people into changing their actions instead of reasoning with them and changing their hearts. Am i reading that right?

785 Obdicut  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 2:45:22pm

re: #784 Killgore Trout

I also suspect that story is spoofing your point about ostracizing and alienating people into changing their actions instead of reasoning with them and changing their hearts. Am i reading that right?

Heh. Wow. Okay, well, that explains a lot.

786 Talking Point Detective  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 2:46:06pm

re: #771 Killgore Trout

Who the fuck is? Pressuring advertisers to withdraw their support for Limbaugh is "bullying?"

It's this bizarre shit that is tripping you up. You need to look at where it's coming from. It just isn't reality based. You've got a serious agenda going on here.

Supporting rapes and stabbings. Attacking free speech. Bullying Limbaugh.

Sorry, but this is delusional. It isn't reality-based.

787 Mattand  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 2:46:24pm

re: #777 Killgore Trout

Maybe you should be more tolerant.

Right. Be tolerant of the idiot asking a woman to make sex tapes because he's thinks we're "paying" for her birth control with his taxes.

Fucking priceless.

788 Killgore Trout  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 2:46:53pm

re: #785 Obdicut

Heh. Wow. Okay, well, that explains a lot.

It's actually a very clever little story.

789 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 2:47:48pm

re: #777 Killgore Trout

Maybe you should be more tolerant.

"He who shows compassion for the cruel will end up being cruel to the compassionate." - Koheleth Rabba

790 Obdicut  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 2:48:13pm

re: #788 Killgore Trout

It's actually a very clever little story.

Do you think your understanding of it is equal to your understanding of the speech that Hitchens gave about the censorship law in Canada, during which he referenced many other censorship laws and talked about the evils of government censorship, which you said didn't involve him talking about government censorship at all?

791 Mattand  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 2:50:26pm

re: #782 Obdicut

He did say that he didn't think there should be a boycott because the subject wasn't important enough-- as compared to racial discrimination, for example. Such things are, of course, subjective, though there's obviously no particular reason why endorsing racial discrimination is somehow more corruptive than Rush's misogyny.

Are you serious? I missed that part.

Oy.

792 The Ghost of a Flea  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 2:55:14pm

Well, I've had my concern RDA for the next month or so. I'm gonna go stir fry something, probably Szechuan-style.

But the important things is that I've learned that bullies are special snowflakes and their victims should just remain victims.

793 Killgore Trout  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 2:55:28pm

re: #791 mattand

Are you serious? I missed that part.

Oy.

Heh, I think so. Unless somebody has a different interpretation I think it's a satire about manipulating people's actions instead of changing their minds. Clever story, I was baffled the first time a read it too.

794 The Ghost of a Flea  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 2:57:57pm

re: #793 Killgore Trout

Heh, I think so. Unless somebody has a different interpretation I think it's a satire about manipulating people's actions instead of changing their minds. Clever story, I was baffled the first time a read it too.

How long did it take to acquire that black belt in middle school social aggression?

795 Obdicut  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 2:58:07pm

re: #793 Killgore Trout

No, he's saying that he missed the part where you asserted that the subject that Rush Limbaugh was talking about wasn't important enough for a boycott.

The story is not simply open to one interpretation. Trying to cram it into just one does it a rather enormous disservice.

I know you're in question-dodging mode at this point-- sorry, I know that I'm 'peppering' you with questions (the same question you've avoided for a month) but just for shits and giggles, here's probably the biggest flaw in your idiotic argument:


And are you ever, ever going to deal with the fact that advertisers actively solicit-- spending billions of dollars to do so-- the opinions of the public?

796 Talking Point Detective  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 2:58:37pm

re: #771 Killgore Trout

The revolving door between the victim and the bully is another issue I have. The victim becomes a bully all too easily and I'm not going down that road.

I'll also say that both playing the victim and bullying occurs on both sides (not speaking as to whether they are in balance) - but, again, how does playing the victim (of people who support rapes and stabbings, of people attacking free speech, of people "bullying" Limbaugh and "intimidating" advertisers) address that problem?

It doesn't. You can only address that problem by talking about it where it actually occurs. Making shit up where it isn't actually happening won't get you anywhere - all it will do is delegitimate the discussion about where it is actually occurring.

797 Mattand  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 3:00:54pm

re: #793 Killgore Trout

Heh, I think so. Unless somebody has a different interpretation I think it's a satire about manipulating people's actions instead of changing their minds. Clever story, I was baffled the first time a read it too.

Yeah, what Obdicut said. I'm assuming you're referring to the Onion story. I was referring to the apparent sliding scale you're applying to racism and misogyny.

Pro tip: it's all equally bad.

798 Talking Point Detective  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 3:00:58pm

re: #771 Killgore Trout

The revolving door between the victim and the bully is another issue I have. The victim becomes a bully all too easily and I'm not going down that road.

I'd suggest that you change your avatar to a picture of the world's biggest shoehorn - if you get my drift.

799 Talking Point Detective  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 3:03:28pm

re: #792 The Ghost of a Flea

Well, I've had my concern RDA for the next month or so. I'm gonna go stir fry something, probably Szechuan-style.

But the important things is that I've learned that bullies are special snowflakes and their victims should just remain victims.

Have you tried Szechuan peppercorns? I've been trying to figure out how to use them effectively. There's a restaurant in Philly that makes a cumin lamb using Szechuan peppercorns that is life-changing.

800 abolitionist  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 3:04:10pm

re: #756 Killgore Trout

I don't think so. I'd much rather have my side (the left) be tolerant and supportive of free speech, no matter how distasteful. What I see is growing fear and hate on the left. I know it's an election year so things get amped up but I think it's unhealthy to keep fear and hate as political motivation. Let Rush keep his show, he's probably going to anyways. The efforts to get him kicked off the air only reflect poorly on the left for attempting it. Leave that stuff to the religious right. Limbaugh's stupid show is nothing to be afraid of. Let it be.

From your commentary here about Rush, would I be correct in assuming you are/were opposed also to Don Imus losing his job over a remark that was --how shall I put this --more off-the cuff, spontaneous, and not so drenched in vitriol, compared to Rush's long-winded and utterly baseless tirade against Sandra Fluke?

Altho you probably have opined on it already, I'd like to ask how you now feel about Sen. Obama (and presidential candidate at the time) calling for Imus to be fired.

BTW, I'm planning on voting for Obama in November, but I think what he did in that case comes a little closer to direct governmental infringement/censorship of free speech of the sort that Hitchens opposed, than what has happened with Rush.

801 Mattand  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 3:04:28pm

re: #799 Talking Point Detective

Have you tried Szechuan peppercorns? I've been trying to figure out how to use them effectively. There's a restaurant in Philly that makes a cumin lamb using Szechuan peppercorns that is life-changing.

Where in Philly?

802 Obdicut  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 3:04:40pm

re: #799 Talking Point Detective

I use them embedded in meat-- like, in lamb, slicing inch-deep pockets and tucking the peppercorns in there. But I have no objections to eating an entire peppercorn. Hell, my mom just snacks on peppercorns.

803 Talking Point Detective  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 3:08:28pm

re: #802 Obdicut

I use them embedded in meat-- like, in lamb, slicing inch-deep pockets and tucking the peppercorns in there. But I have no objections to eating an entire peppercorn. Hell, my mom just snacks on peppercorns.

These are special peppercorns. They actually cause a certain kind of numbness that is oddly pleasurable. They're tricky to cook with.

I think you're in New York now - but have you tried that pop-up on Mission? They also make a killer cumin lamb with those babies.

804 Killgore Trout  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 3:09:04pm

re: #800 abolitionist

From your commentary here about Rush, would I be correct in assuming you are/were opposed also to Don Imus losing his job over a remark that was --how shall I put this --more off-the cuff, spontaneous, and not so drenched in vitriol, compared to Rush's long-winded and utterly baseless tirade against Sandra Fluke?

Altho you probably have opined on it already, I'd like to ask how you now feel about Sen. Obama (and presidential candidate at the time) calling for Imus to be fired.

BTW, I'm planning on voting for Obama in November, but I think what he did in that case comes a little closer to direct governmental infringement/censorship of free speech of the sort that Hitchens opposed, than what has happened with Rush.

I was opposed to Imus being fired. I don't recall Obama calling for the firing but I'll take your word for it. I don't support Obama's position on that.

805 Talking Point Detective  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 3:09:30pm

re: #801 mattand

Where in Philly?

Han Dyunasty. 2nd and Chestnut. Un-be-lieve-able restaurant. Go with a bunch of people and sit at one of the lazy Susan tables in the basement. Bring a shit-load of beer.

806 Obdicut  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 3:09:42pm

re: #803 Talking Point Detective

These are special peppercorns. They actually cause a certain kind of numbness that is oddly pleasurable. They're tricky to cook with.

I think you're in New York now - but have you tried that pop-up on Mission? They also make a killer cumin lamb with those babies.

Yes, I know. I normally tuck them into the meat, as I said-- along with whatever other spices I"m using. And my mom really does just eat them.

She also eats normal peppercorns. But not white pepper. For some damn reason.

807 Obdicut  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 3:10:07pm

re: #803 Talking Point Detective

I can suggest it for my mom-- what's the name of it?

808 Talking Point Detective  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 3:13:26pm

re: #807 Obdicut

I can suggest it for my mom-- what's the name of it?

I'll see if I can get the name. We just call it "the pop-up." It took over a more traditional place . If you drive down Mission, you'll see the crowd (you have to get there early). I'm thinking maybe something like 19th?

Ever eaten at The Sushi Zone? If your mom hasn't been there, it's definitely worth a trip. But they have space for about 10 people, and if you don't get there at 5:30 when they open, expect to wait a couple of hours.

809 Mattand  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 3:13:30pm

re: #805 Talking Point Detective

Han Dyunasty. 2nd and Chestnut. Un-be-lieve-able restaurant. Go with a bunch of people and sit at one of the lazy Susan tables in the basement. Bring a shit-load of beer.

Have to check it out. Some good places on that corner.

810 Talking Point Detective  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 3:15:42pm

re: #806 Obdicut

Yes, I know. I normally tuck them into the meat, as I said-- along with whatever other spices I"m using. And my mom really does just eat them.

She also eats normal peppercorns. But not white pepper. For some damn reason.

Heh. I'll have to try snacking on a few.

[Link: www.nytimes.com...]

811 Obdicut  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 3:16:12pm

re: #808 Talking Point Detective

We have our always-go sushi joint in SF, where we know the chefs. It's Godzilla Sushi.

812 Talking Point Detective  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 3:18:35pm

re: #809 mattand

Have to check it out. Some good places on that corner.

Yeah - the Afghan places and the Indian place are pretty good also. But Han Dynasty is over the top. On some days they do some kind of special menu (maybe for brunches?) where they focus on weird shit that Americans typically won't go anywhere close to. I haven't tried that yet.

813 Mattand  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 3:19:43pm

re: #812 Talking Point Detective

Yeah - the Afghan places and the Indian place are pretty good also. But Han Dynasty is over the top. On some days they do some kind of special menu (maybe for brunches?) where they focus on weird shit that Americans typically won't go anywhere close to. I haven't tried that yet.

Is the Mexican Post still there?

814 Talking Point Detective  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 3:20:05pm

re: #811 Obdicut

We have our always-go sushi joint in SF, where we know the chefs. It's Godzilla Sushi.

Yeah - I've actually been there. If you ever want to branch out, though, try Sushi Zone. The place is a trip even beyond the sushi - since it's so small. Very San Francisco - in a good way.

815 Talking Point Detective  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 3:20:36pm

re: #813 mattand

Is the Mexican Post still there?

I haven't been there. Recommended?

816 Obdicut  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 3:21:21pm

re: #814 Talking Point Detective

I've been there. I've been to most of the famous sushi spots.

817 Talking Point Detective  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 3:22:31pm

re: #807 Obdicut

I can suggest it for my mom-- what's the name of it?

A better link:

[Link: www.missionchinesefood.com...]

818 Talking Point Detective  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 3:23:35pm

re: #816 Obdicut

I've been there. I've been to most of the famous sushi spots.

Ah - I didn't realize that it's famous (not being from San Francisco).

It just isn't fair that people get to live in that city.

819 Obdicut  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 3:24:10pm

re: #818 Talking Point Detective

I miss it a ton. NYC is cool, but... SF is my home.

820 Talking Point Detective  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 3:28:37pm

re: #806 Obdicut

Yes, I know. I normally tuck them into the meat, as I said-- along with whatever other spices I"m using. And my mom really does just eat them.

She also eats normal peppercorns. But not white pepper. For some damn reason.

From what I understand, you have to crush them and fry them to get the optimal effect. I'll try your technique next time I roast some meat. How about chicken? We just got a rotisserie and I've been experimenting.

821 The Ghost of a Flea  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 3:29:00pm

re: #803 Talking Point Detective

These are special peppercorns. They actually cause a certain kind of numbness that is oddly pleasurable. They're tricky to cook with.

I think you're in New York now - but have you tried that pop-up on Mission? They also make a killer cumin lamb with those babies.

Sichuan peppercorns--exactly what I was just toasting in oil as a prelude to Chengdu-style chicken (stir fried with chile, five-spice, orange peel, and Sichuan peppercorns, garnished with green onions).

Edit: Ha! You asked me about them in a post above. Shame on me for reading the thread backwards.

Not relation to the Piper family (Pepper, Long Pepper, Cubeb, Voatsiferry). There's actually a bunch of related plants across the globe that are used as culinary spices, independent of one another.

They actually "sting"--sort of like how capsaicin "burns."

822 Obdicut  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 3:30:46pm

re: #820 Talking Point Detective

Huh. I wonder if my technique is flawed. I'll try frying them before putting them in. I do crush them.

For chicken, my wife loves my lemon-rosemary chicken with crispy skin. I also use the peppers in a tea salad.

823 Talking Point Detective  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 3:32:01pm

re: #821 The Ghost of a Flea

Sichuan peppercorns--exactly what I was just toasting in oil as a prelude to Chengdu-style chicken (stir fried with chile, five-spice, orange peel, and Sichuan peppercorns, garnished with green onions).

Edit: Ha! You asked me about them in a post above. Shame on me for reading the thread backwards.

Not relation to the Piper family (Pepper, Long Pepper, Cubeb, Voatsiferry). There's actually a bunch of related plants across the globe that are used as culinary spices, independent of one another.

They actually "sting"--sort of like how capsaicin "burns."

Damn!

What's your address? What time's dinner? Should I bring beer?

824 The Ghost of a Flea  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 3:45:09pm

TPD --

Have you tried Szechuan peppercorns? I've been trying to figure out how to use them effectively. There's a restaurant in Philly that makes a cumin lamb using Szechuan peppercorns that is life-changing.

I'm no expert on Chinese food--indeed, I've specifically been cooking Chinese recipes this last month to gain more knowledge and confidence.

Sichuan/Szechuan peppercorns are...weird...but good. I don't really have a sense of their affinities in food yet, though. They're kind of piney/junipery in taste, which makes them go well with meat to my mind. They usually are pairing with chiles in Sichuan, creating the "hot and numbing" profile (ma la). Toasted, ground, and blended with salt it's a condiment, and really good on nuts. Beyond that I'm just going by recipes, which use it for lots of stuff--meat, veg, fish, the whole gamut. Apparently it's not just a Sichuan ingredient, but used by a bunch of the non-Han steppe cultures--Beef or lamb with cumin and huaijiao (the peppercorns) is a crossover Sichuan/Uighur dish.

I know only one non-Chinese recipe that uses a similar "peppercorn": it's an Indian mixed-vegetable curry from a specific regional cuisine (that I don't recall off the top of my head). I hear tell that in West Africa there's another kin plant that produces "Ashanti Pepper" which is used for grilling meats.

The only advice I can confidently give is: use a light hand. That resinous flavor can dominate other flavors really easily, and it's not one of those flavors you can mask with further additives.

825 The Ghost of a Flea  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 3:48:49pm

re: #822 Obdicut

Huh. I wonder if my technique is flawed. I'll try frying them before putting them in. I do crush them.

For chicken, my wife loves my lemon-rosemary chicken with crispy skin. I also use the peppers in a tea salad.

Try toasting them in a dry pan it they begin to release their smell, then grind them.

Most of the recipes I know that use huaijiao start either with dry toasting or infusing their flavor into oil...but in the latter case the spices are discarded after they've imparted flavor.

826 The Ghost of a Flea  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 3:53:22pm

re: #823 Talking Point Detective

Damn!

What's your address? What time's dinner? Should I bring beer?

Recipe at a great site for Asian food. I've cooked a lot of recipes from Sunflower with consistently good results.

However, you're so not getting here in time before I demolish my serving and Tupperware the rest for my mother.

827 Mattand  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 4:03:48pm

re: #815 Talking Point Detective

I haven't been there. Recommended?

Sorry, was off killing zombies in Left 4 Dead 2.

It wasn't anything to write home about, but a good semi-divey Mexican place.Still there apparently. Looks like they've cleaned up their act a bit.

828 Citizen Bob  Sun, Mar 25, 2012 8:18:00pm

Charles, the tweet means, "How many pictures did you have to take before you got that awesome twitter icon?", and this is meant as an insult suggesting that you use tricky photography, and, by extension, a web of lies, to seem cool. In reality it means he's a little gay on you, so be gentle.


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