New Orleans Police Officer on Trayvon: ‘Act Like a Thug, Die Like One’

Anyone wondering why African Americans don’t think they’re treated fairly by police?
US News • Views: 34,537

This certainly isn’t going to do much to help the reputation of police in the black community:

A New Orleans police officer under investigation in a recent police-involved fatal shooting has been suspended indefinitely without pay for posting intemperate remarks on an online news story, suggesting that a young man wearing a hooded sweatshirt deserved to die because he “acted like a thug.” Officer Jason Giroir posted “Act like a Thug Die like one!” on an online WWL-TV article posted Sunday about local citizens rallying to protest the fatal shooting of Trayvon Martin, an unarmed 17-year-old Florida boy who was killed Feb. 26 while wearing a hooded sweatshirt and walking through a gated community.

Martin’s encounter with a gun-wielding citizen in his Florida neighborhood has become a flashpoint of national debate, hitting on contemporary issues of race and profiling, and a citizen’s right to bear arms.

After an online commenter named Eddie Johnson criticized Giroir’s comments as racist and questioned whether a hooded sweatshirt makes someone a thug, Giroir responded: “Eddie come on down to our town with a “Hoodie” and you can join Martin in HELL and talk about your racist stories!:-P”

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721 comments
1 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 2:22:16pm

if you ever wondered why black people call the police mean nasty names sometimes...

2 Obdicut  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 2:22:58pm

Wow, what an asshole, on so many levels. And what a fucking idiot, too.

3 erik_t  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 2:25:49pm

No news yet on how buying Skittles in a hooded sweatshirt is characteristic of thuggishness.

It's critical to keep typing and reading this, just to continue to remind oneself of the patent absurdity of it all.

4 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 2:26:22pm

Tweet like a thug, get suspended indefinitely without pay.

I assume that he will just add this to his list of resentments.

5 Obdicut  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 2:26:49pm

re: #1 windupbird is in the gravity well

Well, at least he's getting immediately disciplined. This guy apparently wants to be a TV cop.

6 Robert O.  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 2:27:54pm

Does anyone know that racial makeup of the police force? I have just never see many black or Hispanic or Asian policeman. And I have lived in the Silicon Valley and Central New Jersey (not exactly places you might consider "lily white").

7 Kragar  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 2:28:03pm

WTF is this shit?

8 Obdicut  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 2:28:52pm

If you threaten to kill a black man for wearing a hoodie, you just might be a racist.

Eddie come on down to our town with a 'Hoodie' and you can join Martin in HELL and talk about your racist stories!:

Note the nice Phelpsian touch of 'in hell'.

9 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 2:30:01pm

re: #3 erik_t

No news yet on how buying Skittles in a hooded sweatshirt is characteristic of thuggishness.

It's critical to keep typing and reading this, just to continue to remind oneself of the patent absurdity of it all.

They're absolutely determined to find out some way this child wasn't pure as the driven snow, because that will, in their twisted little minds, justify his death.

So, he was suspended from school. He tattooed his mother's name on his arm. He may have smoked weed at some point in his life. They'll keep going until it matches the gangsta thug they know in their rotted little hearts he must have been.

10 Obdicut  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 2:31:38pm

re: #9 SanFranciscoZionist

Already, since seeing that he refers to himself as 'n*****' in one online photo place, I've seen people on right wing blogs delightedly referring to him as such.

11 Obdicut  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 2:32:10pm

re: #10 Obdicut

Whoops, self-edited there-- Charles, the filter doesn't filter what I originally typed.

12 mr.fusion  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 2:34:29pm

How'd they find out it was him that posted it? Go to any story linked to at Drudge and the comment section immediately turns into a cesspool of racist hateful bile....can't imagine anyone with a respectable job would keep it if people weren't posting anonymously

13 Obdicut  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 2:35:20pm

re: #12 mr.fusion

He admitted it.

14 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 2:36:23pm

re: #6 Robert O.

Does anyone know that racial makeup of the police force? I have just never see many black or Hispanic or Asian policeman. And I have lived in the Silicon Valley and Central New Jersey (not exactly places you might consider "lily white").

Depends a lot. SFPD breaks down like this:

Male: 85%
Female: 15%

White: 60% (city pop. is 48.5%)
Hispanic: 13% (city pop. is 15.1%)
Asian: 13% (city pop. is 33.3%)
African-American/Black: 10% (city pop. is 6.1%)
Hawaiian/Pacific Islander: 4%
Native American:1% (both of these are somewhat higher than city pop.)

15 dragonfire1981  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 2:36:43pm

The New Orleans Police Department doesn't exactly have a sterling reputation from what I've seen and that's speaking as someone who lives about two hours from that city and has been there many times.

16 darthstar  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 2:37:29pm

re: #7 Kragar

WTF is this shit?

America.

17 dragonfire1981  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 2:39:59pm

I couldn't find any post Katrina statistics on the racial make up of the NOPD, but I did find some pre Katrina information that suggested the department was roughly 53% Black and 47% white.

18 Killgore Trout  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 2:40:51pm

re: #9 SanFranciscoZionist

They're absolutely determined to find out some way this child wasn't pure as the driven snow, because that will, in their twisted little minds, justify his death.

So, he was suspended from school. He tattooed his mother's name on his arm. He may have smoked weed at some point in his life. They'll keep going until it matches the gangsta thug they know in their rotted little hearts he must have been.

This will probably be making the rounds soon...
Multiple suspensions paint complicated portrait of Trayvon Martin

Miami Gardens teenager Trayvon Martin was suspended from school in October in an incident in which he was found in possession of women’s jewelry and a screwdriver that a schools security staffer described as a “burglary tool,” The Miami Herald has learned.

19 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 2:40:58pm

re: #14 SanFranciscoZionist

Depends a lot. SFPD breaks down like this:

Male: 85%
Female: 15%

White: 60% (city pop. is 48.5%)
Hispanic: 13% (city pop. is 15.1%)
Asian: 13% (city pop. is 33.3%)
African-American/Black: 10% (city pop. is 6.1%)
Hawaiian/Pacific Islander: 4%
Native American:1% (both of these are somewhat higher than city pop.)

Can't find full stats for Oakland quickly, but a couple of sources say their department is about 20% black. Oakland's total population is 27% black.

This is a huge change over about a generation.

20 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 2:42:05pm

re: #15 dragonfire1981

The New Orleans Police Department doesn't exactly have a sterling reputation from what I've seen and that's speaking as someone who lives about two hours from that city and has been there many times.

I've heard some horror stories about NOPD as well.

21 Eventual Carrion  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 2:43:54pm

re: #18 Killgore Trout

This will probably be making the rounds soon...
Multiple suspensions paint complicated portrait of Trayvon Martin

Yep. My stepson was arrested at age 14 after he and a couple friends had broke into a car and tried to take a stereo system. They were punished and did their time. Where is he now, he has been a police officer for the last 13 years.

22 Obdicut  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 2:44:16pm

re: #18 Killgore Trout

I really don't get how 'complicated' that is. Or why the media or anyone else is accepting that looking into his background is in the least bit relevant. Ghoulish assholes.

23 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 2:44:49pm

re: #18 Killgore Trout

This will probably be making the rounds soon...
Multiple suspensions paint complicated portrait of Trayvon Martin

Parents say that they were never informed about this, and apparently the suspension wasn't for that.

This is hard. I keep thinking of various students of mine, and how the dumbass teenage trouble they were in could be used like this.

24 Batman  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 2:46:11pm

re: #23 SanFranciscoZionist

Parents say that they were never informed about this, and apparently the suspension wasn't for that.

This is hard. I keep thinking of various students of mine, and how the dumbass teenage trouble they were in could be used like this.

To "justify" their murder, no less.

25 Obdicut  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 2:46:19pm

re: #23 SanFranciscoZionist

It won't stop, either. Any possible flaw or failing that Trayvon had will be held up and trumpeted as somehow forming a part of this story.

26 Killgore Trout  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 2:50:54pm

re: #23 SanFranciscoZionist

Parents say that they were never informed about this, and apparently the suspension wasn't for that.

This is hard. I keep thinking of various students of mine, and how the dumbass teenage trouble they were in could be used like this.

Anyways, it's probably not relevant to the case. I don't think either of them were angels or demons. It was most likely a situation that went bad.

27 Charles Johnson  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 2:51:34pm

Wow. The Miami Herald reporters are apparently spending all their time trying to dig up dirt on Trayvon Martin. A 17-year old kid who's freaking DEAD.

How can they possibly justify these stories?

28 Obdicut  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 2:51:36pm

re: #26 Killgore Trout

A situation caused by Zimmerman deciding to follow Martin while armed.

29 Someone Please Beam Me Up!  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 2:52:14pm

I wonder whether the average wingnut would shoot his/her kid for any of these "crimes."

30 Someone Please Beam Me Up!  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 2:52:48pm

re: #27 Charles Johnson

Wow. The Miami Herald reporters are apparently spending all their time trying to dig up dirt on Trayvon Martin. A 17-year old kid who's freaking DEAD.

How can they possibly justify these stories?

Well, they don't have a royal family to stalk.

31 Killgore Trout  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 2:54:04pm

re: #27 Charles Johnson

Wow. The Miami Herald reporters are apparently spending all their time trying to dig up dirt on Trayvon Martin. A 17-year old kid who's freaking DEAD.

How can they possibly justify these stories?

Sensationalism. They spent a lot of time hyping this story, playing up the racial angle, finding dirt of Zimmerman. Now they're doing it to Trayvon. If this all goes badly and there are revenge attacks or riots we'll see the obligatory soul searching panels about how the media coverage fanned the flames that lead to more tragedy.
They'll do it again next time without hesitation.

32 William Barnett-Lewis  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 2:54:14pm

re: #27 Charles Johnson

Wow. The Miami Herald reporters are apparently spending all their time trying to dig up dirt on Trayvon Martin. A 17-year old kid who's freaking DEAD.

How can they possibly justify these stories?

Who owns the paper? Clearchannel? A Murdoch chain? That's where I'd start looking because that's the type of publisher pressure you need for this kind of heavy handed "reporting".

33 b_sharp  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 2:54:24pm

Don't you wish you could shake some sense into people?

34 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 2:56:39pm

Wow, the "friend" of GZ they just had on MSNBC was a real winner. Tried to compare GZ to Casey Anthony in that he's being convicted without a trial and then goes on to say goon/coon are terms of endearment...

35 Charles Johnson  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 2:56:56pm

re: #31 Killgore Trout

Zimmerman was the aggressor in this, and he shot and killed a young boy. There's nothing wrong with looking into his background. It's relevant. It goes toward establishing his motivations.

But smearing the victim is just wrong. He wasn't killed for any of these reasons.

36 allegro  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 2:57:08pm

re: #26 Killgore Trout

Anyways, it's probably not relevant to the case. I don't think either of them were angels or demons. It was most likely a situation that went bad.

Yeah, yanno shit happens. Especially when some self appointed numbnuts with a history of violence and neighborhood complaints gets a gun and concealed carry license and decides to go out hunting for a victim suspect.

Yeah, shit happens. So sad.

37 darthstar  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 2:57:19pm

re: #27 Charles Johnson

Wow. The Miami Herald reporters are apparently spending all their time trying to dig up dirt on Trayvon Martin. A 17-year old kid who's freaking DEAD.

How can they possibly justify these stories?

Casey Anthony. This is what they do in Florida. They elevate a case in the public eye so that a fair or just trial is all but impossible.

38 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 2:58:14pm

Yeah, I saw a stressful situation today at the grocery store. An Asian woman, in obvious distress. Two black people.

How do I know she was in distress? I think the jumper cables gave it away.

Why didn't I stop to help? a. He had it under control b. Ever see one of those movies where someone tries to "help" and makes it a catastrophe? Yeah. This. Me.

39 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 2:58:39pm

re: #34 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance

Wow, the "friend" of GZ they just had on MSNBC was a real winner. Tried to compare GZ to Casey Anthony in that he's being convicted without a trial and then goes on to say goon/coon are terms of endearment...

I do not think I would wish to be compared to Casey Anthony.

40 Killgore Trout  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 3:00:45pm

re: #35 Charles Johnson

Zimmerman was the aggressor in this, and he shot and killed a young boy. There's nothing wrong with looking into his background. It's relevant. It goes toward establishing his motivations.

But smearing the victim is just wrong. He wasn't killed for any of these reasons.

We don;t have all the facts yet so I'm not going to pass judgement on who the victim of aggressor was but that's not what the press is interested in. The reality of the case is probably fairly mundane. They're hyping the story, creating drama and stoking racial tensions because that's what the masses want. It makes them money.

41 Varek Raith  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 3:01:09pm

re: #38 Mostly sane, most of the time.

Yeah, I saw a stressful situation today at the grocery store. An Asian woman, in obvious distress. Two black people.

How do I know she was in distress? I think the jumper cables gave it away.

Why didn't I stop to help? a. He had it under control b. Ever see one of those movies where someone tries to "help" and makes it a catastrophe? Yeah. This. Me.

Image: 1203529086512.gif

42 Killgore Trout  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 3:01:37pm

re: #37 darthstar

Casey Anthony. This is what they do in Florida. They elevate a case in the public eye so that a fair or just trial is all but impossible.

Remember the Olympic Park Bomber? The media ruined the guy's life over nothing.

43 Obdicut  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 3:02:23pm

re: #40 Killgore Trout

We are unlikely to ever have all the facts, thanks to a combination of this law and the actions of the police.

Do you at least think it was wrong of Zimmerman to stalk Martin, or are you just in permanent contrarion mode now?

44 Killgore Trout  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 3:04:03pm

re: #43 Obdicut

We are unlikely to ever have all the facts, thanks to a combination of this law and the actions of the police.

Do you at least think it was wrong of Zimmerman to stalk Martin, or are you just in permanent contrarion mode now?

I have no idea what who was where and what the relevant laws are about that sort of thing. I'll wait until the hype dies down.

45 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 3:04:52pm

re: #26 Killgore Trout

Anyways, it's probably not relevant to the case. I don't think either of them were angels or demons. It was most likely a situation that went bad.

It was definitely a situation that went bad...you can tell, because one of them is dead.

In what way it went bad would, under normal circumstances, be a matter for a court to determine.

46 Killgore Trout  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 3:05:24pm

re: #45 SanFranciscoZionist

It was definitely a situation that went bad...you can tell, because one of them is dead.

In what way it went bad would, under normal circumstances, be a matter for a court to determine.

Agreed.

47 Obdicut  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 3:06:12pm

re: #44 Killgore Trout

I have no idea what who was where and what the relevant laws are about that sort of thing. I'll wait until the hype dies down.

I'm not asking if it was illegal for him to follow Martin while armed. Nobody disputes that he did follow Martin while armed. That's his story, and it's easily verified by the 911 call that you've heard. I'm not sure what you gain from pretending that part isn't well-established.

You remember the bit where the 911 operator asks him if he's following Martin and he says 'yes'?

48 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 3:08:20pm

re: #42 Killgore Trout

Remember the Olympic Park Bomber? The media ruined the guy's life over nothing.

Heh, I looked it up. "Ruined"? That's a bit of silly hype right there. What happened to him was inexcusable, but his life wasn't ruined and he made good bucks from settlements.

49 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 3:08:23pm

re: #47 Obdicut

Unless I am mis-remembering the stuff I learned in Criminal Justice/Security training, in a neighborhood watch situation, as in many security guard situations, you are to observe and report. Leave the pursue and detain to actual police.

50 goddamnedfrank  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 3:08:31pm

re: #42 Killgore Trout

Remember the Olympic Park Bomber? The media ruined the guy's life over nothing.

Um, Eric Rudolph deserved to have his life ruined, he murdered people. Oh, you mean Richard Jewell, the guy who wasn't the Olympic Park Bomber? Yeah, that's a fantastic analogy for someone who has admitted stalking and shooting an unarmed minor.

Do you ever take your arguments out for a test drive before hitting the post button?

51 Charles Johnson  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 3:09:24pm

re: #40 Killgore Trout

We don;t have all the facts yet so I'm not going to pass judgement on who the victim of aggressor was but that's not what the press is interested in. The reality of the case is probably fairly mundane. They're hyping the story, creating drama and stoking racial tensions because that's what the masses want. It makes them money.

You're not going to "pass judgment?"

Zimmerman initiated this incident. He was armed, and he followed a young man who was doing nothing wrong, and was not armed. Zimmerman KILLED this young man, in a confrontation that he started.

And you don't want to call Trayvon a "victim?" I really don't understand where you're coming from on this.

We don't have all the facts, this is true, but we do have enough facts to determine that one of these people is DEAD. That one would normally be called a victim.

52 blueraven  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 3:10:31pm

Disgruntled citizen, denied policeman status, stalks neighborhood with gun.

What could go wrong?

53 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 3:10:59pm

re: #52 blueraven

Real life Tackleberry who didn't make the force.

54 Obdicut  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 3:11:19pm

re: #49 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance

Unless I am mis-remembering the stuff I learned in Criminal Justice/Security training, in a neighborhood watch situation, as in many security guard situations, you are to observe and report. Leave the pursue and detain to actual police.

I don't think he was real big on listening.

But yes, no citizen, ever, is encouraged to do anything at all in any way to follow or confront a criminal. It's not criminalized, most of the time, but it is enormously advised against except in absolute emergencies.

55 dragonath  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 3:12:42pm

I noticed the whole first page of comments on that Miami Herald article are now being "flagged for review".

56 Killgore Trout  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 3:13:41pm

re: #48 'M AFFN FUN

Heh, I looked it up. "Ruined"? That's a bit of silly hype right there. What happened to him was inexcusable, but his life wasn't ruined and he made good bucks from settlements.

Heh, good point.

57 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 3:13:47pm

re: #55 Beware the Green Dragon!

I noticed the whole first page of comments on that Miami Herald article are now being "flagged for review".

The miami herald itself should be flagged for review

58 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 3:14:19pm

re: #51 Charles Johnson

You're not going to "pass judgment?"

Zimmerman initiated this incident. He was armed, and he followed a young man who was doing nothing wrong, and was not armed. Zimmerman KILLED this young man, in a confrontation that he started.

And you don't want to call Trayvon a "victim?" I really don't understand where you're coming from on this.

We don't have all the facts, this is true, but we do have enough facts to determine that one of these people is DEAD. That one would normally be called a victim.

I'm not passing judgement. I really have no fucking clue what happened at the end there. Zimmerman made a series of terrible decisions, both before and during the night in question, but I do not know what finally happened.

I am, however, passing judgement on the people who have peed themselves with rapture as they dig up dirt on a dead teenage boy, of whom the worst-case scenario seems to posit that he got scared and tried to beat up a man who was following him.

I am also passing judgement on a police department which let a man walk away from the killing of an unarmed minor on his word that he was allowed to shoot, and the law that apparently made it possible for them to do so.

59 blueraven  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 3:15:18pm

re: #40 Killgore Trout

We don;t have all the facts yet so I'm not going to pass judgement on who the victim of aggressor was but that's not what the press is interested in. The reality of the case is probably fairly mundane. They're hyping the story, creating drama and stoking racial tensions because that's what the masses want. It makes them money.

I hope you stick to this model, and start giving the benefit of the doubt to certain crimes committed within a ten mile radius of a certain group.

60 Mocking Jay  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 3:16:46pm

re: #40 Killgore Trout

We don;t have all the facts yet so I'm not going to pass judgement on who the victim of aggressor was but that's not what the press is interested in. The reality of the case is probably fairly mundane. They're hyping the story, creating drama and stoking racial tensions because that's what the masses want. It makes them money.

If Trayvon threw the first punch and initiated the physical confrontation, do you think shooting him was the right response? If the answer's no then you can't deny he's a victim. If yes, well, this is one hell of a fearful nation we've become.

61 Obdicut  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 3:18:35pm

re: #58 SanFranciscoZionist

I'm passing judgement on Zimmerman going out while armed. I support the 2nd amendment. I think that gun ownership comes with responsibilities to be sober, cautious, and careful in its use. Zimmerman abjectly failed this, and as a result, a kid is dead.

The cops are the cops. Citizens protecting themselves is one thing-- it's still highly problematic, but it's defensible. Following someone, getting yourself into a confrontational situation while armed is not in any way defensible.

And very few of our gun laws take that into account. Acting like an asshole while armed. It's dangerous as shit, especially when we have so many people chock full of fear of criminals (even as the crime rate descends) and so many people who are convinced that they need to carry their guns around everywhere, even into bars.

62 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 3:19:24pm

re: #61 Obdicut

And aren't NW's supposed to be unarmed?

63 Killgore Trout  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 3:19:50pm

re: #51 Charles Johnson

I'm not sure of the legal status. If Zimmerman's claim is accurate that he was headed back to his truck when he was attacked is true then who is the victim? If it's legally considered self defense then is Trayvon still legally considered the victim? I'm pretty sure you can't legally assault somebody if you think they're following you, especially if they're walking away.
It would be nice if the press coverage discussed issues like this. I don't have all the facts or the legal expertise to pass judgement on Trayvon or Zimmerman myself. I'm happy to let the courts handle this.

64 Obdicut  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 3:20:06pm

re: #62 'M AFFN FUN

And aren't NW's supposed to be unarmed?

Yes, but he wasn't part of the nationally registered program, though apparently his program the local PD helped him set up-- I saw that reported somewhere. Why on earth they didn't get him to join with the national program, if that's true, I have no idea.

65 jaunte  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 3:20:21pm
At the time of the shooting, Giroir's public Myspace profile also featured comments that suggested he sometimes bends rules in his job. The profile read:

"Hello, my name is Jason C. Giroir. I have been a New Orleans police officer for almost 10 years. I enjoy my job because I like to make a positive impact in life. Sometimes that means not doing everything by the book. Everyone who knows me understands what I mean."

He goes on to talk about his family, calling them the strength and motivation in his life.

Under the category for occupation, he listed his job as "Punisher."

This kind of a statement should disqualify anyone from holding a police job. It's not their job to deal out punishment.

66 Mocking Jay  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 3:20:46pm

re: #62 'M AFFN FUN

And aren't NW's supposed to be unarmed?

What's even sadder is that this guy was a wannabe Neighborhood Watchman...

67 Obdicut  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 3:20:53pm

re: #63 Killgore Trout

Why are you choosing to ignore what preceded that, though, IF true?

68 Charles Johnson  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 3:21:34pm

re: #58 SanFranciscoZionist

I don't think it's "passing judgment" to say that Trayvon Martin is a victim in this case. If George Zimmerman, an armed self-appointed vigilante, had followed the instruction from 911 and stopped following Martin, none of this would have happened and Trayvon would still be alive today.

Yes, Zimmerman was the aggressor and Martin was the victim. That's just factual.

69 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 3:22:07pm

re: #63 Killgore Trout

Legal issues aside (and a certain law may be on GZ's side), is the use of deadly force in response to fists morally justifiable?

70 Aye Pod  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 3:22:43pm
A New Orleans police officer under investigation in a recent police-involved fatal shooting has been suspended indefinitely without pay for posting intemperate remarks on an online news story, suggesting that a young man wearing a hooded sweatshirt deserved to die because he “acted like a thug.”

It's a sad state of affairs when one's livelihood can be affected by one's words however offensive they may be to some people...

71 Killgore Trout  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 3:24:32pm

re: #69 'M AFFN FUN

Legal issues aside (and a certain law may be on GZ's side), is the use of deadly force in response to fists justifiable?

I don't know. I suppose in some circumstances it could be but I still don't know enough about who assaulted who or if Trayvon went for Zimmerman's gun during the fight or did Zimmerman draw it first.

72 Obdicut  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 3:26:55pm

re: #71 Killgore Trout

Why are your standards for passing judgement on this so different than your standards for passing judgement on other things, by the way?

73 Shvaughn  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 3:29:58pm

re: #72 Obdicut

Why are your standards for passing judgement on this so different than your standards for passing judgement on other things, by the way?

It has to do with outrageous outrages. Anything someone's upset about is automatically wrong, since it's an OO.

Unless they're KT upset about OWS, in which case it's not an outrageous outrage, and anyone who disagrees just doesn't care about people getting raped or stabbed.

74 Killgore Trout  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 3:30:23pm

re: #72 Obdicut

Why are your standards for passing judgement on this so different than your standards for passing judgement on other things, by the way?

I'm extra cautious about this one because the stakes are pretty high. The media and blog coverage has lots of half truths, competing claims, conspiracy theories, inaccurate or misleading information. A lot of people just want Zimmerman's hide regardless of the truth. Too much hype and if the mob doesn't get Zimmerman (for whatever reason) things could get ugly. I don't want to be part of the angry mob.

75 Mocking Jay  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 3:31:32pm

Fox just reported on a bunch of reporters in Wisconsin being disciplined for being unethical by signing the recall petition. My head hurts.

76 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 3:31:57pm

freep:

To: QT3.14

Lots of commentary on the misrepresentations coming from the race hustlers. What should proud and honest whites be saying that proud and honest whites are not saying?


8 posted on 27 марта 2012 г. 2:24:22 by I see my hands (It's time to.. KICK OUT THE JAMS, MOTHER FREEPERS!)
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77 Mocking Jay  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 3:32:43pm

re: #74 Killgore Trout

Angry mobs rape and stab.

78 Shvaughn  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 3:32:51pm

re: #74 Killgore Trout

A lot of people just want Zimmerman's hide regardless of the truth. Too much hype and if the mob doesn't get Zimmerman (for whatever reason) things could get ugly. I don't want to be part of the angry mob.

I've seen a lot of this "ugly lynch mob" rhetoric but I have to say this is the first time that I've ever seen a mob calling for someone to be fairly charged and tried in court. Usually mobs want something like this:

Image: File:Lynching2.jpg

79 wrenchwench  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 3:33:43pm

Frances Robles, reporter for the Miami Herald who wrote about Trayvon's backpack contents, also wrote a profile on George Zimmerman, published March 17th. It's got some interesting stuff in it.

[...]

Zimmerman told neighbors about stolen laptops and unsavory characters. Ibrahim Rashada, a 25-year-old African American who works at U.S. Airways, once spotted young men cutting through the woods entering the complex on foot, and later learned items were stolen those days.

“It’s a gated community, but you can walk in and steal whatever you want,” Rashada’s wife, Quianna, said.

They discussed the topic with Zimmerman when the watch captain knocked on their door late last year. Zimmerman seemed friendly, helpful, and a “pretty cool dude,” Ibrahim Rashada said.

“He came by here and talked about carrying guns and getting my wife more involved with guns,” he said. “He said I should have a weapon and that his wife took classes to learn how to use one.

“I do have a weapon, but I don’t walk around the neighborhood with mine!”

Actually, he does not walk around the neighborhood at all.

“I fit the stereotype he emailed around,” he said. “Listen, you even hear me say it: ‘A black guy did this. A black guy did that.’ So I thought, ‘Let me sit in the house. I don’t want anyone chasing me.’ ”

For walks, he goes downtown. A pregnant Quianna listened to her husband’s rationale, dropped her head, and cried.

“That’s so sad,” she said. “I hope our child doesn’t have to go through that.”

Travis Williams, a black 16-year-old who wears dreadlocks, said last year a man came to his house and accused him of stealing a bicycle. The police even came and checked the serial numbers on the bike in his garage.

Problems in the 6-year-old community started during the recession, when foreclosures forced owners to rent out to “low-lifes and gangsters,” said Frank Taaffe, a former neighborhood block captain.

[...]

80 Obdicut  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 3:33:57pm

re: #74 Killgore Trout

I'm extra cautious about this one because the stakes are pretty high. The media and blog coverage has lots of half truths, competing claims, conspiracy theories, inaccurate or misleading information. A lot of people just want Zimmerman's hide regardless of the truth. Too much hype and if the mob doesn't get Zimmerman (for whatever reason) things could get ugly. I don't want to be part of the angry mob.

You make frequent statements about what 'a lot of people' want. Can I ask how you know what they want?

Are you applying that to people here?

And are you saying that speech, here, is something to worry about-- that irresponsible speech might lead to a tragedy?

81 Kragar  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 3:37:21pm

Romney: Russia ‘Is Without Question Our Number One Geopolitical Foe’

Did I accidentally wake up in the 80s again?

82 Obdicut  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 3:39:14pm

re: #81 Kragar

He just needs to look into Putin's eyes, and he'll feel better.

83 Shvaughn  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 3:40:19pm

Oh, by the way:

Graffiti: Racial slurs painted on woman's driveway

I hope we can all take the time out of our busy schedules to condemn graffiti whenever it rears its ugly head. I mean, nobody here would ignore graffiti except when it fits in with their political agenda to condemn it, right?

Graffiti is horrible. So say we all. Right?

84 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 3:42:12pm

re: #79 wrenchwench

“I fit the stereotype he emailed around,” he said. “Listen, you even hear me say it: ‘A black guy did this. A black guy did that.’ So I thought, ‘Let me sit in the house. I don’t want anyone chasing me.’ ”

That right there is all one needs to know. This guy is saying Zimmerman e-mailed a profile around of black males. Always black males.

85 Shvaughn  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 3:43:04pm

And another: Richlands High School Student In Custody For Vandalising School. This one featured a false flag operation:

According to [high school senior Ray] Green, the graffiti named other students in an attempt to frame them.

"Some of the stuff on there was like of people that didn't do it. They were like trying to frame other people to do it. But the person that supposedly got caught was the guy that did it and it wasn't none of the names on the wall."

You guys do care about graffiti, right?

86 Shiplord Kirel  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 3:45:14pm

My wingnut neighbor was raving about Trayvon Martin being on suspension for marijuana residue. I tried to point out the essential irrelevancy of this but it was hopeless.

There is no reasoning with these people. I just listen to him as long as I can tolerate it because he is such a reliable barometer of wingnut opinion.

87 Obdicut  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 3:45:23pm

I still wonder why the NOLA cop thinks that Martin is in hell. Was he just being 'poetic' in his death threat, or is there something crazier at work?

88 Mocking Jay  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 3:47:10pm

re: #86 Shiplord Kirel

My wingnut neighbor was raving about Trayvon Martin being on suspension for marijuana residue. I tried to point out the essential irrelevancy of this but it was hopeless.

There is no reasoning with these people. I just listen to him as long as I can tolerate it because he is such a reliable barometer of wingnut opinion.

They need their narrative to point out that he deserved it.

89 Shvaughn  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 3:49:01pm

re: #87 Obdicut

I still wonder why the NOLA cop thinks that Martin is in hell. Was he just being 'poetic' in his death threat, or is there something crazier at work?

Cops tend to classify the world in "good guys" and "bad guys" so I assume this is a case of him believing that Martin is one of those bad guys and thus in Hell. I don't know if it needs a deeper explanation than that.

90 Talking Point Detective  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 3:49:07pm

re: #40 Killgore Trout

They're hyping the story, creating drama and stoking racial tensions because that's what the masses want..

Really. They're "stoking" racial tensions - because there is much evidence that a kid was targeted because of his race, because there is much evidence that innocent black kids are often targeted because of their race. Because rightwingers call people objecting to this kind of phenomenon as "race-baiters." Because this kind of issue is a very prominent one in the black community (in the least) because of a long legacy of related phenomena.

And they're "stoking" racial tensions by reporting the information as they acquire the information? Of course they're exploiting an event that attracts viewers, readers, listeners, etc. That's what the media do.

But the racial tensions are already there. The people "stoking" the tensions, IMO, are those who seek to deny, diminish, or defend the racial issues that inevitably come to the surface in this kind of an event.

Blaming the racial tensions surrounding this event on the media is bizarre.

91 freetoken  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 3:49:15pm

re: #88 Altar Boy of Darwinism

They need their narrative to point out that he deserved it.

Aha! THC residue! Obviously deserves death, yeah.

92 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 3:49:20pm

re: #86 Shiplord Kirel

Earlier this weekend they were trying to say Martin stole the skittles and soda since he didn't have a receipt. Bottom line, they can't defend this so they will do anything to try and make the victim out to be the bad guy.

Sandra Fluke was a slut.

Rape victims deserve it because of how they were dressed.

Graeme Frost's family had granite counter-tops.

93 Talking Point Detective  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 3:51:26pm

re: #77 Altar Boy of Darwinism

Angry mobs rape and stab.

Hence KT's "concern."

94 Mocking Jay  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 3:51:58pm

re: #92 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance

Earlier this weekend they were trying to say Martin stole the skittles and soda since he didn't have a receipt. Bottom line, they can't defend this so they will do anything to try and make the victim out to be the bad guy.

Sandra Fluke was a slut.

Rape victims deserve it because of how they were dressed.

Graeme Frost's family had granite counter-tops.

Don't forget that Trayvon Martin was really blacker than the mainstream media would have you believe...

95 Varek Raith  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 3:52:45pm

re: #91 freetoken

Aha! THC residue! Obviously deserves death, yeah.

There goes two thirds of the country.

96 Talking Point Detective  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 3:54:33pm

re: #63 Killgore Trout

It would be nice if the press coverage discussed issues like this.

I've read/heard plenty of discussion about those issues. Where have you been?

97 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 3:54:36pm

boy this new moonbat LGF sucks, what with the being concerned about children of color being executed and stuff


can we talk about blowing something up in the middle east with the utmost of patriotism, or daily kos, or code pink, or also code pink

I miss Ronald Reagan

98 Shiplord Kirel  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 3:55:33pm

re: #87 Obdicut

I still wonder why the NOLA cop thinks that Martin is in hell. Was he just being 'poetic' in his death threat, or is there something crazier at work?

I vote for deeper level crazy. It used to be confined to itinerant street preachers, now it is the middle class norm in some areas, hence the election of kooks like Louis Gohmert to Congress.

99 Jimmi the Grey  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 3:55:39pm

re: #95 Varek Raith

There goes two thirds of the country.

Fully 90% of the popuation west of the Cascade mountain range.

100 freetoken  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 3:55:53pm

re: #95 Varek Raith

There goes two thirds of the country.

I am one of those who believes the "War on Drugs" has a racist component to it, given how the drug laws are enforced and punished.

101 Varek Raith  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 3:56:27pm

re: #97 windupbird is in the gravity well

boy this new moonbat LGF sucks, what with the being concerned about children of color being executed and stuff

can we talk about blowing something up in the middle east with the utmost of patriotism, or daily kos, or code pink, or also code pink

I miss Ronald Reagan

Image: 16539.jpg

102 Darth Vader Gargoyle  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 3:56:39pm

re: #100 freetoken

I am one of those who believes the "War on Drugs" has a racist component to it, given how the drug laws are enforced and punished.

Not to mention where they are grown and imported from.
//

103 erik_t  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 3:57:14pm

Romneybot unveils brilliant scheme to evade flip-flopping allegations -- keep your positions a secret.

“One of the things I found in a short campaign against Ted Kennedy was that when I said, for instance, that I wanted to eliminate the Department of Education, that was used to suggest I don’t care about education,” Romney recalled. “So I think it’s important for me to point out that I anticipate that there will be departments and agencies that will either be eliminated or combined with other agencies.... So will there be some that get eliminated or combined? The answer is yes, but I’m not going to give you a list right now.”

104 freetoken  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 3:57:23pm

re: #102 We are ANONYMOUS, WE ARE LEGION, we are arrested

Not to mention where they are grown and imported from.
//

Oregon?

105 Shvaughn  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 3:59:53pm

Okay, this is off-topic but sort of related:

Robbery suspect fatally shot by police in Pasadena; co-suspect accused of murder

The officers saw a man they believed was connected to the robbery heading north on Fair Oaks. The officers, who were not identified, gave chase.

"The suspect put his hands in his waistband at some point," Sanchez said. "Both officers fired, striking the suspect."

No weapon was found at the shooting scene Sunday, but police continued to search the area.

Kendrec Lavelle McDade, 20, of Azusa died at a hospital. The 17-year-old boy was arrested nearby without incident, officials said.

The teen was booked on suspicion of murder under the legal argument that he committed a felony that resulted in McDade's death, Ibarra said.

The person who originally reported the robbery spotted at least one of the suspects removing items from his car, Ibarra said. He also told police that one of the suspects showed a handgun.

The man followed the suspects and gave police updates on their position, Ibarra said.

Does this kind of thing leading to murder charges bother anyone else? I don't see how the 17-year-old can be held responsible for murder of his partner in crime (if, indeed, they are both guilty).

106 Talking Point Detective  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 4:00:35pm

re: #58 SanFranciscoZionist

I am also passing judgement on a police department which let a man walk away from the killing of an unarmed minor on his word that he was allowed to shoot, and the law that apparently made it possible for them to do so.

There does seem to be reason to be skeptical about the actions of the police here - but it may well be that they acted appropriately according to the law. It still isn't precisely clear to me - but despite the politically expedient claims of the sponsor of the law, it is entirely possible that simply by virtue of him claiming self-defense, (absent immediately available evidence that proves otherwise), there's not a reason to charge Zimmerman. It isn't even clear to me that the police have a responsibility to verify the claim of self-defense. This is the exact reason why so many law enforcement officials were opposed to the law - because of the untenable situation it would put cops in.

From the former police chief of my city, John Timoney:


THE very public controversy surrounding the killing on Feb. 26 of Trayvon Martin, an unarmed 17-year-old, by a crime watch volunteer, George Zimmerman, was predictable.

In fact, I, along with other Florida chiefs of police, said so in a letter to the Legislature in 2005 when we opposed the passage of a law that not only enshrined the doctrine of “your home is your castle” but took this doctrine into the public square and added a new concept called “stand your ground.”

[Link: www.nytimes.com...]

Race-baiter!!1!!1!!! Indifferent to victims of urban crime !11!!!!!!1!!!

107 Achilles Tang  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 4:03:48pm

re: #100 freetoken

I am one of those who believes the "War on Drugs" has a racist component to it, given how the drug laws are enforced and punished.

There are plenty of well documented biases in punishment, often resulting from poor legal defense; but when you generalize like that you seem to ignore just how prevalent drug dealing is in many black communities.

I have seen it and watched it and experienced it first hand. Entire neighborhoods in on the action and doing deals with their little kids playing next to them. They destroy property values and drive decent people, black and white, out and incidentally destroy any possibility of the dealers ever going straight and working legally.

I say legalize pot and allow other drugs on controlled prescription.

108 Darth Vader Gargoyle  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 4:04:45pm

re: #104 freetoken

Oregon?

I did more Counter-Narcotics deployments than I can remember. Never did one to Oregon. Always seemed to be further south...

109 erik_t  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 4:05:38pm

re: #108 We are ANONYMOUS, WE ARE LEGION, we are arrested

I did more Counter-Narcotics deployments than I can remember. Never did one to Oregon. Always seemed to be further south...

Oregon's all pot and meth, I think.

110 Shvaughn  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 4:07:33pm

re: #107 Blue Spot Vlamingii Tang

There are plenty of well documented biases in punishment, often resulting from poor legal defense; but when you generalize like that you seem to ignore just how prevalent drug dealing is in many black communities.

I have seen it and watched it and experienced it first hand. Entire neighborhoods in on the action and doing deals with their little kids playing next to them. They destroy property values and drive decent people, black and white, out and incidentally destroy any possibility of the dealers ever going straight and working legally.

Don't you mean "in many poor communities"? You don't like overgeneralization, but surely the phenomenon you're talking about -- as you yourself admit when you say "decent people, black and white" -- is one correlated more with economic status than with race.

111 Jimmi the Grey  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 4:10:24pm

re: #109 erik_t

Oregon's all pot and meth, I think.

Portland has a carryover of Seattle's heroin problem and psycadelics are big in Eugene (UofO), but that about sums it up.

112 Talking Point Detective  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 4:10:40pm

re: #110 Shvaughn

Don't you mean "in many poor communities"? You don't like overgeneralization, but surely the phenomenon you're talking about -- as you yourself admit when you say "decent people, black and white" -- is one correlated more with economic status than with race.

Actually, there's quite a bit of drug dealing that takes place in wealthy (and white) communities also. Probably not the same amount proportionally, but probably not as disproportionate as we might tend to assume, also.

I'm not entirely sure how closely illegal drug use tracks with income levels.

113 Obdicut  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 4:11:03pm

re: #107 Blue Spot Vlamingii Tang

The drug usage by the white and black population, as established in epidemiological studies, is about equal.

Yet arrests for possession-based crimes are far, far, far, far higher for blacks than they are for whites.

Information on racial components of dealers is certainly harder to come by, but there is no shortage of white dealers of drugs.

114 freetoken  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 4:11:48pm

re: #107 Blue Spot Vlamingii Tang

I was indeed thinking of the differential punishment aspect of our society, which as you point out has been documented.

That certain communities do not have the disdain for marijuana (or certain other mild hallucinogens) that other communities have I do not doubt.

I for one don't care if someone wants to smoke marijuana (except around me - I hate smoke of any kind), fancies peyote, drinks alcohol, etc.

In all cases what I expect from people that they act responsibly (e.g., not drive a vehicle under the influence) with regards to others.

115 Achilles Tang  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 4:12:25pm

re: #110 Shvaughn

Don't you mean "in many poor communities"? You don't like overgeneralization, but surely the phenomenon you're talking about -- as you yourself admit when you say "decent people, black and white" -- is one correlated more with economic status than with race.

In my experience it is black communities, but it no doubt exist in others although unless you think the majority of black males in prison are innocent the problem is clearly greater in black communities than others given the statistics that we all know. That this correlates with economic status does not change the reality.

116 Darth Vader Gargoyle  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 4:12:33pm

This whole story is very sad. The one thing we do know is that Zimmerman was armed and followed someone he thought was "suspicious" and shot him.

A concealed license is for your personal protection or the protection of those around you. It is not intended to empower you to confront folks or act like you are a police officer.

Quite the opposite, if you carry a weapon you don't have the right to get mad about someone insulting you or arguing with you. You have a great obligation to ensure you avoid any situation that could lead to you needing your weapon.

George Zimmerman acted in an incredibly stupid manner and a young man is dead as a result. The rest we just don't know yet (if ever).

117 Shvaughn  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 4:14:53pm

re: #115 Blue Spot Vlamingii Tang

In my experience it is black communities, but it no doubt exist in others although unless you think the majority of black males in prison are innocent the problem is clearly greater in black communities than others given the statistics that we all know. That this correlates with economic status does not change the reality.

I think the prison population's demographics reflect the fact that it's easier and more popular to lock up black men than white men.

I think it's reasonable to believe this without necessarily requiring that the majority of black prisoners are innocent.

118 Talking Point Detective  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 4:18:12pm

re: #115 Blue Spot Vlamingii Tang

...although unless you think the majority of black males in prison are innocent....

You're missing relevant variables. Wrongful conviction can be relevant even if it doesn't reach the bar of "majority." But there are other relevant variables: Increased rate of being searched would add to the problem. Increased visibility in urban environments with higher %'s of cops looking for drug users. Decreased ability to hire good legal defense. Then there's the issue of which drugs are illegal, and which illegal drugs carry longer sentences, etc.

There's no doubt about a huge discrepancy in incarceration rates - but that does not necessarily translate proportionally to usage rates.

119 Achilles Tang  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 4:21:52pm

re: #113 Obdicut

The drug usage by the white and black population, as established in epidemiological studies, is about equal.

Yet arrests for possession-based crimes are far, far, far, far higher for blacks than they are for whites.

Information on racial components of dealers is certainly harder to come by, but there is no shortage of white dealers of drugs.

You are talking about usage. I am talking about dealing. Yes, many of the buyers I have seen were white.

Information about dealing in low income black communities (although low income is according to tax data, not the cars dealers drive) can easily be obtained first hand if you go there, or as in my case have had properties there which you can watch from.

120 Achilles Tang  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 4:22:42pm

re: #117 Shvaughn

I think the prison population's demographics reflect the fact that it's easier and more popular to lock up black men than white men.

That is just plain silly.

121 [deleted]  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 4:22:55pm
122 Obdicut  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 4:23:10pm

re: #119 Blue Spot Vlamingii Tang

You are talking about usage. I am talking about dealing. Yes, many of the buyers I have seen were white.

I'm talking about both, and pointing out that incarceration rates are a provably bad proxy.

Information about dealing in low income black communities (although low income is according to tax data, not the cars dealers drive) can easily be obtained first hand if you go there, or as in my case have had properties there which you can watch from.

And so can information about dealing in low-income white communities, like meth labs. So what? Anecdotal data like that gets you nowhere.

123 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 4:24:34pm

[Link: www.iol.co.za...]

An Umlazi teenager, accused by relatives of being possessed by demons, was tortured for three days and then brutally murdered.

Sinethemba Dlamini, 15, was left lying on the lounge floor with her intestines next to her at her home in K-Section.

Five relatives, who allegedly killed the teenager during a bizarre, three-day exorcism, have been charged with murder.

[...]

Sinethemba died after her intestines were pulled out through her vagina, the source said.

“The child died almost immediately.

“It was a horrific, brutal death. After the intestines were removed, they allegedly waited for her to wake up and be free of the demon. They claimed that by removing the intestines she would be cured.”

124 Obdicut  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 4:24:51pm

re: #120 Blue Spot Vlamingii Tang

That is just plain silly.

No, it's really not. All other things being equal, it is easier to get a conviction against a black than a white defendant.

125 wrenchwench  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 4:25:53pm

re: #123 'M AFFN FUN

I think I'll go watch the Cain bunny vid now.

126 moderatelyradicalliberal  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 4:26:11pm

re: #115 Blue Spot Vlamingii Tang

In my experience it is black communities, but it no doubt exist in others although unless you think the majority of black males in prison are innocent the problem is clearly greater in black communities than others given the statistics that we all know. That this correlates with economic status does not change the reality.

All of the different ethnic groups use drugs at roughly the same proportion as their percent of the population, but drug laws weren't passed to put white people, rich, poor or middle class in jail so in that sense you are correct, income has nothing to do with it. African Americans make up roughly 13% of the population, 14% of drug uses, but 37% of arrests. The average sentence for an African-American that is convicted of a drug offense is as long as the sentence of a white violent offender in federal prison (mandatory minimum sentencing). Mass incarceration of white people was never apart of the plan and never would be allowed. Locking up black people disproportionately is however A-OK. If it's not on purpose it's a tolerable by-product.

127 wrenchwench  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 4:27:02pm

re: #120 Blue Spot Vlamingii Tang

That is just plain silly.

The cops, like you, tend to peek into black neighborhoods for this sort of thing.

128 Achilles Tang  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 4:27:18pm

re: #118 Talking Point Detective

You're missing relevant variables. Wrongful conviction can be relevant even if it doesn't reach the bar of "majority."

Relevant variables??

I did a little experiment once when having a serious problem. I looked up online arrest records by address. Up and down within one block of where I was, 90% of houses had someone living at those properties arrested for drugs in the last five years.

129 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 4:27:21pm

re: #125 wrenchwench

[Link: www.iol.co.za...]

Four women and a 15-year-old minor accused of the “satanic” murder of an uMlazi teenager, were all released from custody on Thursday after being granted bail at the uMlazi Magistrate’s Court.

130 Talking Point Detective  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 4:27:41pm

re: #120 Blue Spot Vlamingii Tang

That is just plain silly.

Can you explain why you think it's silly?

131 Obdicut  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 4:27:50pm

re: #129 'M AFFN FUN

So freaking creepy.

132 Talking Point Detective  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 4:28:44pm

re: #128 Blue Spot Vlamingii Tang

Relevant variables??

I did a little experiment once when having a serious problem. I looked up online arrest records by address. Up and down within one block of where I was, 90% of houses had someone living at those properties arrested for drugs in the last five years.

I think that we all agree that there is a vast difference in incarceration rates. The question is how closely that tracks with rates of usage, or rates of dealing.

133 Varek Raith  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 4:28:57pm

re: #131 Obdicut

So freaking creepy.

Vast understatement.
*Shudders*

134 Sheila Broflovski  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 4:29:04pm

re: #121 neilk

What do I do?

You should not have posted that.

135 Lidane  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 4:30:11pm

re: #27 Charles Johnson

Wow. The Miami Herald reporters are apparently spending all their time trying to dig up dirt on Trayvon Martin. A 17-year old kid who's freaking DEAD.

How can they possibly justify these stories?

Because the story of an unarmed, good black kid getting shot by a white vigilante makes them uncomfortable. Better to turn that kid into a thug as quick as possible so they're on familiar ground.

136 funky chicken  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 4:30:14pm

re: #28 Obdicut

A situation caused by Zimmerman deciding to follow Martin while armed.

Period, end of story.

137 neilk  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 4:30:34pm

re: #134 Learned Mother of Zion

It's coming out anyway, otherwise I wouldn't have. After his tweets got published it's just a matter of following the network. I found it first, though, so I have the chance to blunt the impact.

138 Obdicut  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 4:30:36pm

re: #135 Lidane

Apparently weed is a dangerous drug again.

139 moderatelyradicalliberal  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 4:30:36pm

re: #116 We are ANONYMOUS, WE ARE LEGION, we are arrested

This whole story is very sad. The one thing we do know is that Zimmerman was armed and followed someone he thought was "suspicious" and shot him.

A concealed license is for your personal protection or the protection of those around you. It is not intended to empower you to confront folks or act like you are a police officer.

Quite the opposite, if you carry a weapon you don't have the right to get mad about someone insulting you or arguing with you. You have a great obligation to ensure you avoid any situation that could lead to you needing your weapon.

George Zimmerman acted in an incredibly stupid manner and a young man is dead as a result. The rest we just don't know yet (if ever).

Here's something else we know. Zimmerman outweighed Trayvon by nearly 100 lbs. Even if Trayvon jumped on him, he had option aside from deadly force. One of the problems with this law is that it seems to make it OK to kill someone, even if you could easily get away or disable a person. If a 125 lbs woman takes a swing at her 225 lbs boyfriend is his only option to shoot her? I don't think so.

140 Obdicut  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 4:31:09pm

re: #137 neilk

It's irrelevant. What should you do? Tell anyone who sees it that it's irrelevant, and tell anyone that spreads it around they're being an idiot.

141 Killgore Trout  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 4:31:31pm

re: #134 Learned Mother of Zion

You should not have posted that.

They're probably going to find it anyways.

142 Sheila Broflovski  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 4:31:53pm

re: #137 neilk

It's coming out anyway, otherwise I wouldn't have. After his tweets got published it's just a matter of following the network. I found it first, though, so I have the chance to blunt the impact.

And you "blunt the impact" how exactly? By posting here instead of directly at the stalker blog? So they get it like half a second later?

143 neilk  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 4:32:21pm

re: #142 Learned Mother of Zion

To ask a sympathetic community for advice, and then to repeat myself.

144 Killgore Trout  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 4:32:46pm

re: #138 Obdicut

Apparently weed is a dangerous drug again.

And rap music too. We must protect the children!
/

145 Shvaughn  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 4:33:10pm

re: #143 neilk

To ask a sympathetic community for advice, and then to repeat myself.

If you're just asking for advice, why post the link?

146 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 4:33:45pm

Onoz, teens smoking weed. End of the world!

147 Mocking Jay  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 4:33:52pm

re: #143 neilk

To ask a sympathetic community for advice, and then to repeat myself.

By posting it you help spread it.

148 Sheila Broflovski  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 4:34:34pm

re: #143 neilk

To ask a sympathetic community for advice, and then to repeat myself.

You went ahead and posted the link before even asking for advice, so you not asking for advice, you're asking for approval.

I don't approve.

149 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 4:34:55pm

re: #143 neilk

You've just ensured its spread far and wide through the stalker blog (which has connections to breitbart thugs).

150 Sheila Broflovski  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 4:35:18pm

Teenagers do dumb shit, and other teenagers with cell phones post their dumb shit on Teh Interwebz.

151 freetoken  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 4:35:51pm

re: #147 Altar Boy of Darwinism

By posting it you help spread it.

Possibly. But, given the internet is what it is, anything like an online video that can be had by following tweets/links eventually will get surfaced, and I doubt that any single discoverer anywhere can turn the larger tide.

152 neilk  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 4:35:53pm

I intended to spread it. I honestly don't think there's anything bad about it, especially with the news from this morning, but if it the wrong people hype it the wrong way... you know how a certain site loves to announce pending video releases which will change the world...

153 wrenchwench  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 4:36:29pm

re: #152 neilk

I intended to spread it. I honestly don't think there's anything bad about it, especially with the news from this morning, but if it the wrong people hype it the wrong way... you know how a certain site loves to announce pending video releases which will change the world...

Why do you say it's undeniably him?

154 Shvaughn  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 4:36:33pm

I sincerely hope that any teenager who is stupid enough to do pot and post a video on the web is not automatically considered fair game for being shot.

155 neilk  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 4:36:47pm

re: #148 Learned Mother of Zion

My question wasn't whether to post it here or not, but now that question has been answered. Apparently it's too late to edit my comment above so I've asked for it to be deleted.

156 Lidane  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 4:36:47pm

re: #138 Obdicut

Apparently weed is a dangerous drug again.

ZOMG! Reefer madness!

157 Darth Vader Gargoyle  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 4:36:50pm

re: #150 Learned Mother of Zion

Teenagers do dumb shit, and other teenagers with cell phones post their dumb shit on Teh Interwebz.

Just think, the video could have had a negative affect on Trayvon's life if he hadn't been shot dead by that jackass.

158 Sheila Broflovski  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 4:36:52pm

re: #152 neilk

I intended to spread it. I honestly don't think there's anything bad about it, especially with the news from this morning, but if it the wrong people hype it the wrong way... you know how a certain site loves to announce pending video releases which will change the world...

You are not "asking a sympathetic community for advice" you're making excuses.

159 Mocking Jay  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 4:37:04pm

"Blunt the impact" was an interesting choice of words, by the way...

160 erik_t  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 4:37:40pm

Taking a picture of yourself breaking the law and then putting it on the internet is never, ever, ever, ever a good idea. Don't do it.

It's unfortunate that this will continue to drive an ever-derpier narrative that has (or should have) no bearing whatsoever on whether or not it was appropriate for Zimmerman to shoot Martin.

161 Darth Vader Gargoyle  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 4:37:47pm

re: #159 Altar Boy of Darwinism

"Blunt the impact" was an interesting choice of words, by the way...

I think you just toke the wrong meaning.

162 moderatelyradicalliberal  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 4:37:56pm

re: #128 Blue Spot Vlamingii Tang

Relevant variables??

I did a little experiment once when having a serious problem. I looked up online arrest records by address. Up and down within one block of where I was, 90% of houses had someone living at those properties arrested for drugs in the last five years.

If the police did regular raids on the homes of white neighborhoods like they do minority neighborhoods, how many people do you think would be arrested for drug possession? We lock up the people in this country who we want to lock up for what we want to lock them up for. Mass incarceration of white people ain't what this country wants and if incarceration rates for illicit drug use reflected who was using drugs, that's what we would have.

163 erik_t  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 4:38:18pm

re: #161 We are ANONYMOUS, WE ARE LEGION, we are arrested

I think you just toke the wrong meaning.

But there is a nugget of truth to it.

164 Obdicut  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 4:39:50pm

It's really fucking sickening. I'm disappointed in America all over again.

The people who spread the hatred and meaningless fear, the Limbaughs and Ron Pauls, and Santorums, the race-baiting, religion-baiting, misogyny-- the just keep on getting excused by person after person for their fucking militant assholery. What they're doing isn't goddamn right. It shouldn't be accepted. It shouldn't be criminalized, but we shouldn't pretend it's just one side of a coin and that the truth is somewhere in the middle. That stupid fantasy is dragging our society further and further down.

165 Shvaughn  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 4:39:53pm

re: #152 neilk

I intended to spread it.

But you also said:

I don't really want to post it anywhere but I also don't want Brei/tbart to break it.

So you don't want to post it but you intended to spread it? How does that make any sense?

Breitbrats weren't holding a gun to your head making you do anything.

166 Darth Vader Gargoyle  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 4:41:13pm

re: #163 erik_t

But there is a nugget of truth to it.

You must be high!

167 Shvaughn  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 4:41:35pm

re: #163 erik_t

But there is a nugget of truth to it.

I was afraid weed start punning like this.

168 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 4:41:49pm

re: #153 wrenchwench

See the description.

169 Obdicut  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 4:42:00pm

re: #160 erik_t

I think Trayvon should be arrested for oh wait.

170 Shvaughn  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 4:42:10pm

re: #166 We are ANONYMOUS, WE ARE LEGION, we are arrested

You must be high!

Don't get your nose all out of joint.

171 Darth Vader Gargoyle  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 4:42:13pm

re: #167 Shvaughn

I was afraid weed start punning like this.

We just need to nip it in the bud!

172 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 4:42:25pm

re: #164 Obdicut

Take heart. Compared to most other places you guys are doing great.

173 neilk  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 4:42:33pm

re: #165 Shvaughn

I would prefer that it not get out at all, but I know that is impossible, so despite the fact that I don't really want to, I feel the impetus to act placed upon me. You know? I guess you don't.

174 Shvaughn  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 4:43:23pm

re: #171 We are ANONYMOUS, WE ARE LEGION, we are arrested

We just need to nip it in the bud!

These puns seen to be a chronic problem for this blog.

175 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 4:44:01pm

re: #174 Shvaughn

These puns seen to be a chronic problem for this blog.

Munch, munch, munch.

Wait, what puns?

176 Darth Vader Gargoyle  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 4:44:17pm

Gotta run do more "life" stuff. Stay scaly my lizard friends!!

177 Shvaughn  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 4:44:21pm

re: #173 neilk

I would prefer that it not get out at all, but I know that is impossible, so despite the fact that I don't really want to, I feel the impetus to act placed upon me. You know? I guess you don't.

There is no impetus to act and you do nothing by spreading it other than, well, spreading it. You didn't somehow magically inoculate it from being harmful because of your magical intentions.

178 Talking Point Detective  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 4:44:36pm

re: #171 We are ANONYMOUS, WE ARE LEGION, we are arrested

We just need to nip it in the bud!

Refraining from these puns will need to be a joint effort.

179 moderatelyradicalliberal  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 4:44:46pm

re: #154 Shvaughn

I sincerely hope that any teenager who is stupid enough to do pot and post a video on the web is not automatically considered fair game for being shot.

Right. I don't think people should be defensive about it. For one thing, we know he wasn't high that night. They did a tox screen on his body that coma up negative for anything. It's irrelevant to whether or not he deserved to be shot dead. If smoking weed was punishable by death more then half of the country would be on death row.

180 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 4:44:50pm

re: #175 Mostly sane, most of the time.

Munch, munch, munch.

Wait, what puns?

You don't know? Are you from here? Or are you a plant?

181 erik_t  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 4:45:12pm

re: #178 Talking Point Detective

Reeferaining from these puns will need to be a joint effort.

FTFY

182 Obdicut  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 4:45:23pm

re: #172 'M AFFN FUN

Take heart. Compared to most other places you guys are doing great.

That's just even fucking sadder, man.

And hell, I get to live in the cool places, in San Francisco, in New York City. I just feel so fucking bad for the gay kids growing up in North Dakota, having to hear Rush Limbaugh snigger about them as their dad laughs along. For the girl who realizes that guy who pressured into having her sex got her pregnant and now she's going to get called a slut-- which of course she'd have gotten called if she'd sought birth control, too.

So many other people just spending their time wanting to make others miserable.

I'm going to have to find more time for get out the vote stuff and fundraising and the rest. This shit cannot stand.

183 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 4:45:48pm

Let's not re-hash all the old puns...

184 celticdragon  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 4:45:57pm

re: #15 dragonfire1981

The New Orleans Police Department doesn't exactly have a sterling reputation from what I've seen and that's speaking as someone who lives about two hours from that city and has been there many times.

Shooting innocent civilians on bridges and then trying to doctor the scene during a national disaster will do things like that to your reputation.

As an aside, I experienced just what it is like to be questioned over ethnicity by the police when I was pulled over in Florida for a recently expired tag. I had a black coworker and friend in the car with me coming home from a jobsite where we had been for a week. The police kept us for over 45 minutes trying to figure out how to get something on us. I actually asked my friend what the f*** could the cops be up to. He shrugged nonchalantly and said "It's a black thing."

185 Talking Point Detective  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 4:46:18pm

re: #178 Talking Point Detective

Refraining from these puns will need to be a joint effort.

Especially if we're going to weed out the bad ones.

186 Mocking Jay  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 4:46:33pm

re: #180 'M AFFN FUN

You don't know? Are you from here? Or are you a plant?

I think they just decided that the grass was greener over here.

187 wrenchwench  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 4:46:41pm

re: #168 'M AFFN FUN

See the description.

Because it has 'tray' in it? There's already been a FB page with that AND the same last name.

188 Obdicut  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 4:46:51pm

re: #173 neilk

I would prefer that it not get out at all, but I know that is impossible, so despite the fact that I don't really want to, I feel the impetus to act placed upon me. You know? I guess you don't.

Well, it's done now. The assholes who want to spread it, and the other stories about him, will happily do so.

I wonder if they ever take five seconds and think "I'm spending my time talking shit about a young man who died scared and alone."

189 neilk  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 4:46:52pm

re: #177 Shvaughn

We have seen a recent case where another site hyped a "damaging video" which was seriously discredited by another site releasing the same video first. It's not as black and white as out there/not out there.

190 neilk  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 4:47:40pm

re: #188 Obdicut

They'll find it through the recent Da/ily Ca/ller post, not through these comments.

191 Obdicut  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 4:48:40pm

re: #190 neilk

They'll find it through the recent Da/ily Ca/ller post, not through these comments.

Who cares? You did what you did. It is what the empty baggie was-- irrelevant. To anyone posting it or talking about it, just say: That's irrelevant.

192 Achilles Tang  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 4:48:47pm

re: #122 Obdicut

I'm talking about both, and pointing out that incarceration rates are a provably bad proxy.

And so can information about dealing in low-income white communities, like meth labs. So what? Anecdotal data like that gets you nowhere.

If you want to suggest that my property experiences over many years just happen to be a few blips on the map, by unfortunate chance, then you are welcome to your denial.

The problem comes back to our education system that allows large subgroups to not only drop out of school, but drop out of mainstream society. Sure some of it is racism, but if you think all that needs to be done is be nicer to everyone, then carry on the denial some more.

193 Lidane  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 4:49:47pm

re: #190 neilk

You do realize that LGF doesn't filter out the words Daily Caller, right? This isn't Faux News where you need to get creative with spelling.

194 Obdicut  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 4:49:54pm

re: #192 Blue Spot Vlamingii Tang

If you want to suggest that my property experiences over many years just happen to be a few blips on the map, by unfortunate chance, then you are welcome to your denial.

Your anecdotes remain anecdotes.

I've known a ton of dealers in my life. 90% of them have been white. Anecdotes don't prove shit.

but if you think all that needs to be done is be nicer to everyone, then carry on the denial some more.

What the fuck are you talking about?

195 freetoken  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 4:50:25pm

re: #192 Blue Spot Vlamingii Tang

...
The problem comes back to our education system that allows large subgroups to not only drop out of school, but drop out of mainstream society....

It seems to me to be too big a burden to put on the back of the "education system" to keep people from dropping out of "mainstream society".

197 Achilles Tang  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 4:52:16pm

re: #127 wrenchwench

The cops, like you, tend to peek into black neighborhoods for this sort of thing.

Don't be a jerk. I don't peek, I invested and improved, knowingly and more than once.

You seem to be the type who thinks something doesn't exist if you don't see it, or look for it.

198 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 4:52:51pm

re: #187 wrenchwench

Because it has 'tray' in it? There's already been a FB page with that AND the same last name.

Because it's the "last time" he smoked with "tray". Because "Location Smoking Good With Tray". Because of the theme of latest twitter stream. Context.

199 Achilles Tang  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 4:53:37pm

re: #195 freetoken

It seems to me to be too big a burden to put on the back of the "education system" to keep people from dropping out of "mainstream society".

Yes, it is more than an issue of schools. I would have thought that was obvious.

200 neilk  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 4:53:43pm

re: #193 Lidane

It's googleproofing, really just an old habit.

201 freetoken  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 4:54:19pm

re: #196 Lidane

Looks quite promising.

202 Talking Point Detective  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 4:55:07pm

re: #192 Blue Spot Vlamingii Tang

If you want to suggest that my property experiences over many years just happen to be a few blips on the map, by unfortunate chance, then you are welcome to your denial.

The problem comes back to our education system that allows large subgroups to not only drop out of school, but drop out of mainstream society. Sure some of it is racism, but if you think all that needs to be done is be nicer to everyone, then carry on the denial some more.

Among my high school friends, every single one was smoking dope, which meant they were all buying dope, and not a few of them sold dope. I lived in a mixed-income, racially-mixed neighborhood and my school reflected those demographics. You can tell about your anecdotal experiences, and they aren't irrelevant, but you need to ground them in something larger - otherwise they just serve to confirm biases.

What do you suggest for an educational system that wouldn't "allow" kids to drop out? In particular, kids who grow up in neighborhoods where they rarely see anyone attain success by staying in school?

And where did you buy the straw to build the "all people need to do is be nicer to each other" straw man? Did you get a discount, because I suspect you could save by buying in bulk?

203 SidewaysQuark  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 4:56:27pm

re: #40 Killgore Trout

We don;t have all the facts yet so I'm not going to pass judgement on who the victim of aggressor was but that's not what the press is interested in. The reality of the case is probably fairly mundane. They're hyping the story, creating drama and stoking racial tensions because that's what the masses want. It makes them money.

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and guess the victim is the one who died unarmed.

As I see it, the only controversy is what specific variety of homicide Zimmerman should be indicted for.

204 wrenchwench  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 4:56:40pm

re: #197 Blue Spot Vlamingii Tang

Don't be a jerk. I don't peek, I invested and improved, knowingly and more than once.

You seem to be the type who thinks something doesn't exist if you don't see it, or look for it.

You said,

or as in my case have had properties there which you can watch from.

...so I wasn't talking about the property you invested in and improved, I was talking about the property you were watching from there. You didn't say anything about a random survey, so it's correct to say your anecdotes are meaningless to your assertions.

205 Achilles Tang  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 4:58:07pm

re: #194 Obdicut

Your anecdotes remain anecdotes.

I've known a ton of dealers in my life. 90% of them have been white. Anecdotes don't prove shit.

What the fuck are you talking about?

I doubt you have known many dealers doing shop on the street in front of their homes, with 3 year old kids in tow and the older kids doing lookout on bikes at the end of the block.

As before, if you can't wash your own mouth out with soap, we'll end this exchange.

206 neilk  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 4:58:21pm

Here's something a little more appropriate. I'm not sure if this late-teens picture of Trayvon has been around, I'd never seen it before.

[Link: twitter.com...]

207 Lidane  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 4:58:41pm

re: #203 SidewaysQuark

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and guess the victim is the one who died unarmed.

Clearly, the victim was the poor, oppressed, armed white vigilante. He was forced to stalk, chase, attack, and shoot that unarmed black kid, don'tcha know.

///

208 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 4:58:43pm

re: #198 'M AFFN FUN

Also, this guy has been Tray's friend, as indeed follows from the tweets obtained by the Daily Caller.

209 wrenchwench  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 4:58:48pm

re: #198 'M AFFN FUN

Because it's the "last time" he smoked with "tray". Because "Location Smoking Good With Tray". Because of the theme of latest twitter stream. Context.

OK, but I haven't seen proof that the DC twitter quotes are real.

And if so, as has been said already, it's irrelevant.

210 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 5:00:30pm

re: #206 neilk

I think it has been on his fb. Anyway, I've seen it.

211 neilk  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 5:00:35pm

re: #209 wrenchwench

I established to my own satisfaction that that's his real Twitter account (the Daily Caller was wrong, it's still live) and have been looking at what his friends posted around the time of his death. There's some interesting stuff but nothing relevant. One interesting thing.

212 Obdicut  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 5:00:51pm

re: #205 Blue Spot Vlamingii Tang

I doubt you have known many dealers doing shop on the street in front of their homes, with 3 year old kids in tow and the older kids doing lookout on bikes at the end of the block.

What the hell does that have to do with anything, though? And I knew plenty of dealers like that when I lived in the Tenderloin, in SF.

As before, if you can't wash your own mouth out with soap, we'll end this exchange.

Oh my god. Seriously? Whatever. If you can't accept that anecdotes aren't data, and that the usage vs. convictions rates in the black and white populations demonstrably prove that conviction rates aren't good proxies for the incidence of crimes in various populations, that's your choice.

It would be cool if you explained where the hell you got the "just be nicer" part, though, from what I said.

213 Shvaughn  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 5:02:30pm

re: #206 neilk

Here's something a little more appropriate. I'm not sure if this late-teens picture of Trayvon has been around, I'd never seen it before.

[Link: twitter.com...]

What are you trying to do here?

Score Internet points for a "scoop"?

214 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 5:02:42pm

re: #209 wrenchwench

There's no reason to suspect they're not real. Especially taken together with the existing account of this guy and its contents.

215 Talking Point Detective  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 5:02:44pm

re: #205 Blue Spot Vlamingii Tang

I doubt you have known many dealers doing shop on the street in front of their homes, with 3 year old kids in tow and the older kids doing lookout on bikes at the end of the block.

As before, if you can't wash your own mouth out with soap, we'll end this exchange.

So your point is that drug dealers have different ways of selling their wares in different neighborhoods? I don't think that anyone would disagree with that.

What you have yet to show is some verifiable data that shows that usage or rates of dealing track with race.

Do you have any such data? If not, why not? Have you tried looking for some?

216 neilk  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 5:02:48pm

Somebody should've suggested that I tweet the kid and tell him to delete that video. Fortunately, I did it anyway.

217 Lidane  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 5:03:11pm

God damn people in this country are stupid:

Some 'Hunger Games' fans upset that character of Rue is black

She's described as black in the book. How is it a surprise if she's black in the movie? WTF.

218 neilk  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 5:03:21pm

re: #213 Shvaughn

to share interesting information. Isn't that what comments are for?

219 Achilles Tang  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 5:03:27pm

re: #204 wrenchwench

You said,

...so I wasn't talking about the property you invested in and improved, I was talking about the property you were watching from there. You didn't say anything about a random survey, so it's correct to say your anecdotes are meaningless to your assertions.

That sounds like something Sara Palin would compose. You are a theorist. I know the realities.

220 Lidane  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 5:04:13pm

Can someone explain to me how Trayvon Martin's tweets justify his murder? I seem to be missing the logic here.

221 Talking Point Detective  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 5:04:36pm

re: #212 Obdicut

It would be cool if you explained where the hell you got the "just be nicer" part, though, from what I said.

Probably the same place where he got his conclusions about conviction rates as a proxy for rates of usage/dealing: Out of his ass.

222 wrenchwench  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 5:04:49pm

re: #219 Blue Spot Vlamingii Tang

That sounds like something Sara Palin would compose. You are a theorist. I know the realities.

Right. I live in a bubble. You live in the real world.

My realities are also anecdotes, if I don't do a random survey.

223 erik_t  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 5:04:56pm

re: #220 Lidane

Can someone explain to me how Trayvon Martin's tweets justify his murder? I seem to be missing the logic here.

Logic, as you can so clearly see, has the day off.

224 wrenchwench  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 5:05:10pm

re: #214 'M AFFN FUN

OK.

225 neilk  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 5:05:19pm

re: #220 Lidane

They don't. HTH

226 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 5:05:46pm

re: #211 neilk

DC wasn't wrong yesterday, when this account wasn't opening.

227 Mich-again  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 5:06:30pm

Attacking Trayvon Martin's character is a typical ad hominen attack from the Wyatt Derps in the GOP.

228 freetoken  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 5:06:45pm

re: #220 Lidane

Can someone explain to me how Trayvon Martin's tweets justify his murder? I seem to be missing the logic here.

Probably the same logic that says someone wearing a hooded jacket justifies murder.

Or, how someone having THC residue on them justifies their murder.

229 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 5:07:17pm

re: #216 neilk

Somebody should've suggested that I tweet the kid and tell him to delete that video. Fortunately, I did it anyway.

We're not worthy.

230 Mocking Jay  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 5:07:19pm

I fail to see why digging into this 17 year-old's past is in any way necessary.

231 Obdicut  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 5:07:22pm

re: #228 freetoken

Probably the same logic that says someone wearing a hooded jacket justifies murder.

Or, how someone having THC residue on them justifies their murder.

I don't know a single cop who wouldn't rather deal with a stoner than a drunk.

232 Shvaughn  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 5:07:51pm

re: #228 freetoken

Probably the same logic that says someone wearing a hooded jacket justifies murder.

Or, how someone having THC residue on them justifies their murder.

And the sad thing is that for some people, those excuses are just proxies for their real belief: That Travyon being a young black man justifies his murder.

233 darthstar  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 5:08:33pm

Zimmerman, party of one...

234 Lidane  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 5:08:53pm

re: #230 Altar Boy of Darwinism

I fail to see why digging into this 17 year-old's past is in any way necessary.

Because the racists and wingnuts were pissed off that Trayvon Martin was a good student that got A's and B's, was a friendly and popular athlete, and actually lived in the neighborhood he was murdered in.

They've got to paint this kid as a thug and gangbanger at all costs so they can feel better about justifying his murder.

235 Mocking Jay  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 5:10:16pm

If only the kid just paid grown-ups to get him alcohol, like normal teenagers.

236 Gus  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 5:10:30pm

Now you know why it was so easy for President Bush to convince Americans to fight a war against the brown people of Iraq.

237 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 5:10:31pm

re: #231 Obdicut

I don't know a single cop who wouldn't rather deal with a stoner than a drunk.

Isn't the least popular one someone with mental illness?

238 freetoken  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 5:11:10pm

Completely off topic, but starting to generate news stories: This week is the Planet Under Pressure conference:

[Link: www.planetunderpressure2012.net...]

Audio streams are here:
[Link: view6.workcast.net...]

Though many of the news stories center on climate change, the conference is about more than that. This is all part of the run-up to the (feared by Alex Jones types) "Rio+20" meeting.

239 neilk  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 5:11:56pm

re: #230 Altar Boy of Darwinism

Me personally, I'm digging into his friends past around the time of the murder, to see whether they posted anything that they wouldn't tell a journalist (yes, but nothing interesting) or cop (no cops seem to have asked them).

241 Obdicut  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 5:12:19pm

re: #239 neilk

Why on earth are you doing that?

242 Lidane  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 5:13:12pm

re: #239 neilk

What the fuck? Get a life, dude. What his friends might have posted doesn't matter at all.

What a creepy thing to do.

243 Achilles Tang  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 5:14:30pm

re: #212 Obdicut

What the hell does that have to do with anything, though? And I knew plenty of dealers like that when I lived in the Tenderloin, in SF.

Are you saying that their demographic did not end up in jail very much?

Oh my god. Seriously? Whatever.

Just a little tip. You are a smart guy, but your penchance for four letter exclamations doesn't add to your arguments. Call me old fashioned.

If you can't accept that anecdotes aren't data, and that the usage vs. convictions rates in the black and white populations don't demonstrably prove that conviction rates aren't good proxies for the incidence of crimes in various populations, that's your choice.

I know what data and anecdotes are, which doesn't mean that you can dismiss anything that wasn't published in the latest edition of "Crime Today". There's another form of anectdote that you can take home with you, and that is the one I have heard from many many people calling about a rental vacancy, and passing when they hear the address. Perhaps I should have told them not to be stupid, their opinions are only worthless anecdotes?

It would be cool if you explained where the hell you got the "just be nicer" part, though, from what I said.

Sorry, I thought that would be understood. It was just a somewhat cynical quip about the suggestions floating about that incarceration rates of different groups are only due to police, or legal, biases.

244 freetoken  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 5:15:24pm

re: #236 Gus

Now you know why it was so easy for President Bush to convince Americans to fight a war against the brown people of Iraq.

But... but... Saddam Hussein didn't wear a hoodie, but a beret.

245 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 5:16:23pm

re: #244 freetoken

But... but... Saddam Hussein didn't wear a hoodie, but a beret.

So, he was one of those artsy fartsy elitist snobs?

246 neilk  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 5:16:23pm

re: #241 Obdicut

Because there's so much that we don't know. Anyway, I really don't see how reading public Twitter accounts is so awful. They're public for a reason.

247 Shvaughn  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 5:16:27pm

re: #241 Obdicut

Why on earth are you doing that?

He's possessed by the spirit of Breitbart. He has no choice, he has to do it!!

///

248 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 5:17:51pm

CONSERVATIVE TEEN MAGAZINE

Ronald Reagan: our first black president!

249 darthstar  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 5:18:29pm

Stealth stalker not so stealthy.

250 Lidane  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 5:18:40pm

re: #246 neilk

You're stalking the friends of a dead teenager. That doesn't seem even remotely creepy to you?

Either that or you're just trolling and trying to get a rise out of people. It's still fucking creepy.

251 Shvaughn  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 5:18:55pm

re: #243 Blue Spot Vlamingii Tang

Sorry, I thought that would be understood. It was just a somewhat cynical quip about the suggestions floating about that incarceration rates of different groups are only due to police, or legal, biases.

So then what do you think causes the discrepancy, if it's not "only due to police, or legal, biases?" You think it's not racism and you downplay inequalities in the system, so what's your answer?

252 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 5:19:09pm

re: #246 neilk

Because there's so much that we don't know. Anyway, I really don't see how reading public Twitter accounts is so awful. They're public for a reason.

You're doing the lord's work! Don't let the black get away!

253 Obdicut  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 5:19:48pm

re: #243 Blue Spot Vlamingii Tang

Are you saying that their demographic did not end up in jail very much?

No, they did. So what?

Just a little tip. You are a smart guy, but your penchance for four letter exclamations doesn't add to your arguments. Call me old fashioned.

You're old-fashioned.

Perhaps I should have told them not to be stupid, their opinions are only worthless anecdotes?

You seem to be really confused here. I'm not claiming there is no problem with drug dealing in poor black neighborhoods. I'm saying that there is no reason to believe that the rate of dealers in the black population is higher than in the white population. My support for this is that, even though epidemiological studies have shown that there is equivalent usage rates in the white and black populations of nearly all drugs, the black population is incarcerated for it at a much higher rate. Therefore, pointing out that blacks are incarcerated for dealing at a higher rate than whites, on its own, means nothing.

Sorry, I thought that would be understood. It was just a somewhat cynical quip about the suggestions floating about that incarceration rates of different groups are only due to police, or legal, biases.

I'm suggesting that we should do a lot to fix the inequities in the judicial and legal system, which demonstrably, provably exist. That doesn't involve just being nicer to people. And I don't think that would solve the problem of drug dealing among the poor subclasses, either, of any race. It'd just be, you know, nice to do, because of justice and all that stuff.

254 neilk  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 5:20:49pm

re: #250 Lidane

I really don't see this sharp stalker-like distinction between reading news articles interviewing Trayvon's friends and reading their own words written in a public forum. I'm interested in the story, I want to learn about it. But I guess I got the wrong idea that this was a site for people who enjoy reading and discussing the news. Oops!

255 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 5:21:52pm

re: #254 neilk

I really don't see this sharp stalker-like distinction between reading news articles interviewing Trayvon's friends and reading their own words written in a public forum. I'm interested in the story, I want to learn about it. But I guess I got the wrong idea that this was a site for people who enjoy reading and discussing the news. Oops!

Son, how long you been on the internet

256 Shvaughn  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 5:22:09pm

re: #254 neilk

I really don't see this sharp stalker-like distinction between reading news articles interviewing Trayvon's friends and reading their own words written in a public forum. I'm interested in the story, I want to learn about it. But I guess I got the wrong idea that this was a site for people who enjoy reading and discussing the news. Oops!

Of course you don't see the distinction, because you're a stalker.

257 Obdicut  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 5:22:15pm

re: #246 neilk

Because there's so much that we don't know. Anyway, I really don't see how reading public Twitter accounts is so awful. They're public for a reason.

Whatever. If you want to be a creepy guy who's spending his life obsessing over whether a teenager that got shot walking home from the store smoked weed or not, have at it.

There's plenty more like you.

258 Lidane  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 5:22:28pm

re: #254 neilk

Reading and discussing the news, yes. Stalking the Twitter friends of a dead teenager? Not so much.

It's fucking creepy.

259 Shvaughn  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 5:23:00pm

re: #257 Obdicut

Whatever. If you want to be a creepy guy who's spending his life obsessing over whether a teenager that got shot walking home from the store smoked weed or not, have at it.

There's plenty more like you.

The pathetic thing is that he's trying to claim some sort of moral superiority over the Breitbrats while he's doing it.

260 neilk  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 5:23:13pm

re: #257 Obdicut

Perhaps I didn't make it clear enough that that's not what I was looking for, it's just what I found.

261 Talking Point Detective  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 5:23:21pm

re: #243 Blue Spot Vlamingii Tang

It was just a somewhat cynical quip about the suggestions floating about that incarceration rates of different groups are only due to police, or legal, biases.

Who suggested that? Someone from one of your anecdotal experiences?

262 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 5:23:21pm

Guys they're so much we don't know about this black kid

so let's internet follow his friends around, maybe ask them what's in their internet pockets, maybe blow the whistle to my white internet friends that they may be Internet While Black

263 neilk  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 5:23:55pm

re: #258 Lidane

I wish there were more creepy journalists asking these kids for creepy interviews, to be creepily honest. They have things to say.

264 darthstar  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 5:24:11pm

re: #255 windupbird is in the gravity well

Son, how long you been on the internet

He's been on the internet for six years, seven months and twelve days, has two email accounts in addition to his work one, and enjoys sampling free porn even with all the popup screens...why do you ask?

265 Mocking Jay  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 5:24:28pm

Mikhail Muhammed is on AC360 right now. Fucking crazy person.

266 Shvaughn  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 5:24:48pm

re: #262 windupbird is in the gravity well

Might be good to take a gun with you while you follow them around. Call 911, but don't listen if they say to stop following them!

We gotta get to the bottom of what these black kids are up to.

//

Really, neilk seems like an Internet version of Zimmerman; good thing he can't shoot anyone through twitter.

267 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 5:25:02pm

re: #265 Altar Boy of Darwinism

Mikhail Muhammed is on AC360 right now. Fucking crazy person.

how many microsoft points does he cost

268 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 5:25:13pm

re: #265 Altar Boy of Darwinism

Mikhail Muhammed is on AC360 right now. Fucking crazy person.

Who? And why does he have a Russian name?

269 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 5:25:39pm

re: #265 Altar Boy of Darwinism

Mikhail Muhammed is on AC360 right now. Fucking crazy person.

will he change my ME3 ending

270 Mocking Jay  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 5:26:06pm

Holy crap, he's talking about Uncle Toms now...

271 Talking Point Detective  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 5:26:11pm

re: #254 neilk

But I guess I got the wrong idea that this was a site for people who enjoy reading and discussing the news. Oops!

I think you should re-read the comment people have made. It isn't your reading and discussing news that people are objecting to.

272 Shvaughn  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 5:26:18pm

re: #268 'M AFFN FUN

Who? And why does he have a Russian name?

New Black Panthers dude.

273 Gus  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 5:26:18pm
274 EdDantes  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 5:26:19pm

re: #2 Obdicut

Wow, what an asshole, on so many levels. And what a fucking idiot, too.

Indeed. Many people become cops for all the wrong reasons.

275 darthstar  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 5:26:23pm

re: #268 'M AFFN FUN

Who? And why does he have a Russian name?

Kim Jong bin Laden was already taken.

276 neilk  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 5:27:25pm

re: #271 Talking Point Detective

Gotcha. News = ok, primary sources = not ok.

277 Mocking Jay  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 5:27:28pm

re: #268 'M AFFN FUN

Who? And why does he have a Russian name?

Head of the New Black Panthers. I also need an explanation for the name.

re: #269 windupbird is in the gravity well

will he change my ME3 ending

Is it really as bad as I've been hearing??

278 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 5:28:29pm

re: #277 Altar Boy of Darwinism

Head of the New Black Panthers. I also need an explanation for the name.

re: #269 windupbird is in the gravity well

Is it really as bad as I've been hearing??

No idea, i haven't even played ME2 yet :D I'm just hearing about it EVERYWHERE

The only game I'm playing this year, if it comes out, is the PC XCOM by Firaxis

279 Lidane  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 5:28:50pm

re: #276 neilk


Your "primary sources" are the Twitter pages belonging to the friends of a dead teenager. That means they're mostly likely also teenagers.

If you can't see how it's creepy for an adult to go trolling through the Twitter feeds of a bunch of teenagers, I don't know what to tell you.

280 Mocking Jay  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 5:29:19pm

re: #276 neilk

Gotcha. News = ok, primary sources = not ok.

Maybe we should talk to the friends of rape victims to find out what was going on inside their heads to make them dress that way.

281 Obdicut  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 5:29:46pm

re: #263 neilk

I wish there were more creepy journalists asking these kids for creepy interviews, to be creepily honest. They have things to say.

I always find the exploitation of people during their grief really reprehensible.

282 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 5:29:50pm

re: #276 neilk

Gotcha. News = ok, primary sources = not ok.

after you're done Hacking The Negro Gibson, maybe you can tell us whether Sandra Fluke's boyfriend is a socialist Jew or not


also, let us know about their countertops, am they granite?!?!?

283 Talking Point Detective  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 5:30:30pm

re: #276 neilk

Gotcha. News = ok, primary sources = not ok.

I still think you're misreading the comments. I'm actually somewhat neutral on the issue - but you're clearly mischaracterizing the objections. If you really want to understand the objections, you should re-read the thread. Initially I thought you were being straight up about your reasoning, the longer it's gone on, the more it seems like you're full of shit.

284 EdDantes  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 5:30:33pm

re: #272 Shvaughn

New Black Panthers dude.

I thought his name was McHale, a good Scotsman.

285 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 5:31:20pm

re: #283 Talking Point Detective

I still think you're misreading the comments. I'm actually somewhat neutral on the issue - but you're clearly mischaracterizing the objections. If you really want to understand the objections, you should re-read the thread. Initially I thought you were being straight up about your reasoning, the longer it's gone on, the more it seems like you're full of shit.

ON THE SCENE! MAKING SURE THE BLACK DOESN'T TWEET OUT OF LINE!

YOU THERE! ARE YOU ON DRUGS?!?!?!

286 Daniel Ballard  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 5:31:23pm

re: #47 Obdicut

What we don't know is who initiated the close contact & fight. That still matters, if we could see that. But alas, we will not. Attacking a person who is following you is pretty dicey. My suspicion is Zimmerman walked up on the kid and confronted him. But that is just mere speculation.

What we do know is the extreme disparity of force.

287 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 5:31:32pm

The NOPD adds to its horrible reputation with black people with this KKK-grade bit of filth. The new and good thing though, is that the hater got suspended without pay immediately. The next step should be to fire his racist ass.

288 erik_t  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 5:32:16pm

re: #286 Daniel Ballard

Attacking a person who is following you is pretty dicey.

Maybe he felt threatened.

/

289 Obdicut  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 5:32:41pm

re: #286 Daniel Ballard

We will probably never know.

290 neilk  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 5:33:40pm

re: #279 Lidane

No, I can't see how it's creepy to read what the friends of a prominent murder victim wrote in their public Twitter feeds about the murder. Boring, a waste of time, pointless; these things, maybe. Creepy to read high schoolers' Twitter feeds for other reasons, certainly. Creepy to read the murder victim's Twitter feed, and pointless seeing as how nothing he posted could possibly be related to the murder, sure.

291 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 5:34:04pm

re: #279 Lidane

Your "primary sources" are the Twitter pages belonging to the friends of a dead teenager. That means they're mostly likely also teenagers.

If you can't see how it's creepy for an adult to go trolling through the Twitter feeds of a bunch of teenagers, I don't know what to tell you.

It's not creepy if you're honestly trying to get information about a matter like this. It's not creepy if not motivated by desire to exploit, but is motivated by a desire to find out the truth.

292 neilk  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 5:34:58pm

re: #283 Talking Point Detective

Everybody is wilfully mischaracterizing my motivations, too. I thought that was the game. If anything my obvious error has been to be too earnest.

293 neilk  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 5:36:13pm

re: #285 windupbird is in the gravity well

Do you honestly think this is my angle? I assume you're just winding me up because you can tell that it's the opposite of my angle, but I have to ask at this point.

294 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 5:37:00pm

A CBS Miami item on Zimmerman, for those interested: [Link: miami.cbslocal.com...]

295 Talking Point Detective  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 5:37:10pm

re: #286 Daniel Ballard

My suspicion is Zimmerman walked up on the kid and confronted him.

Which would not be illegal, and thus if he felt threatened, then according to SYG, it seems, he couldn't be prosecuted for shooting Martin.

What we do know is the extreme disparity of force.

Which, again, under SYG could be negated if he claims to have felt "threatened." I didn't check the other thread - did you ever provide evidence that Zimmerman has the burden of proof that he was in self-defense?

I hope that you read that NY Times editorial by John Timoney.

296 Shvaughn  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 5:37:27pm

LOL "Breitbart Lives" is their headline at breitbart.com.

297 Obdicut  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 5:39:08pm

re: #293 neilk

When you start off by saying that you don't want to post something and then post something, it's probably going to make you look weird from the start.

298 Lidane  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 5:39:17pm

re: #291 Dark_Falcon

It's not creepy if you're honestly trying to get information about a matter like this. It's not creepy if not motivated by desire to exploit, but is motivated by a desire to find out the truth.

At the end of the day, those kids are grieving over the death of their friend.

If someone really wants to talk to them, approach the parents of those kids. Don't just troll through their Twitter feeds like some pedobear type.

299 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 5:39:43pm

re: #289 Obdicut

We will probably never know.

But if we don't know, then that also means that George Zimmerman likely cannot be charged with murder, no matter what we might want. Murder requires proof of intent to kill, and the currently known facts to do not prove that intent beyond a reasonable doubt. Those facts may still support a manslaughter charge, and if they do I certainly hope that charge is filed and soon.

Note: I'm speaking to what I think the law and facts will support, no more. I'm not trying to exonerate Zimmerman, whose actions were clearly wrong.

300 allegro  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 5:40:11pm

re: #291 Dark_Falcon

It's not creepy if you're honestly trying to get information about a matter like this. It's not creepy if not motivated by desire to exploit, but is motivated by a desire to find out the truth.

That's the thing... there is no relevant "truth" to be found digging around the tweats of Trayvon's teenage friends. Nothing that ever happened before had any influence over what happened to that kid that night. He went to the store for a snack. He was stalked and killed. The only person for whom there is a relevant past is the man who killed him.

301 jaunte  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 5:40:14pm

re: #296 Shvaughn

Still looks pretty relaxed over there.
[Link: www.quantcast.com...]

302 Achilles Tang  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 5:40:29pm

re: #162 moderatelyradicalliberal

If the police did regular raids on the homes of white neighborhoods like they do minority neighborhoods, how many people do you think would be arrested for drug possession? We lock up the people in this country who we want to lock up for what we want to lock them up for. Mass incarceration of white people ain't what this country wants and if incarceration rates for illicit drug use reflected who was using drugs, that's what we would have.

I'm not talking about possession, which is not to say that is not part of the problem. I am talking of the dealing and distribution which is criminal enterprise and everything that goes with it. That is why I think we should do much more towards legalization.

303 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 5:40:33pm

re: #296 Shvaughn

LOL "Breitbart Lives" is their headline at breitbart.com.

Image: PBF126-One_More_Day.gif

304 Talking Point Detective  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 5:40:54pm

re: #292 neilk

Everybody is wilfully mischaracterizing my motivations, too. I thought that was the game. If anything my obvious error has been to be too earnest.

You had an argument there until you started completely mischaracterizing the objections. My presumption was to give you the benefit of the doubt. As the discussion went on, you undermined that presumption and actually seemed to be validating the assumptions people were making about your motivation.

305 Obdicut  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 5:42:56pm

re: #299 Dark_Falcon

I don't think the law will even support a manslaughter charge.

306 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 5:44:06pm

re: #305 Obdicut

What about some sort of criminal negligence?

307 darthstar  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 5:44:36pm

re: #292 neilk

Everybody is wilfully mischaracterizing my motivations, too. I thought that was the game. If anything my obvious error has been to be too earnest.

Personally, I think motivations are irrelevant. Trying to figure out who someone's friends are and harvest data from their social networks is weird regardless of motive. The internet provides us with the ability to poke into just about anybody's life but that doesn't mean we should do it. Go ahead and say nasty shit about people (I do) or defend them vigorously(I do), but don't create more victims by dragging innocent bystanders into the internet cesspool of speculation. You name one of Trayvon's friends you find by luck, and some other asshole with better Googlefu will take it a step further...and the next thing you know they're getting vivisected on Fox & Friends.

308 webevintage  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 5:45:00pm

re: #246 neilk

Because there's so much that we don't know. Anyway, I really don't see how reading public Twitter accounts is so awful. They're public for a reason.

I think that is considered a form of stalking on Twitter.
I know it is public, but yeah, pretty creepy.

(hi everyone...waves)

309 Obdicut  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 5:45:08pm

re: #306 'M AFFN FUN

What about some sort of criminal negligence?

Maybe. I am not a lawyer, even on the internet.

310 Talking Point Detective  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 5:45:50pm

re: #302 Blue Spot Vlamingii Tang

I'm not talking about possession, which is not to say that is not part of the problem. I am talking of the dealing and distribution which is criminal enterprise and everything that goes with it. That is why I think we should do much more towards legalization.

A couple of questions.

Do you think that drug usage is correlated to race?

If not, do you really think that most white people go into the ghetto to buy their drugs?

If not, then why do you think that drug dealing is significantly more prevalent in black neighborhoods?

311 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 5:46:06pm

re: #306 'M AFFN FUN

What about some sort of criminal negligence?

Let me ask some people I know.

BBL

312 darthstar  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 5:48:18pm

re: #311 Dark_Falcon

Let me ask some people I know.

BBL

What's the cashier at the 7-11 going to say?

313 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 5:48:37pm

But yes, Obdi is right. It's one of those cases where moral culpability is clear but legal culpability is pretty improbable to establish.

314 Mocking Jay  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 5:49:12pm

Most people in general, I suspect, don't appreciate the reach that their tweets or Facebook posts can have. Doubly so for teens. It's correct to say they're public, and there should be no expectation of privacy, but few plan on being in a position where their past comments are subject to intense scrutiny.

315 Mocking Jay  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 5:49:52pm

re: #312 darthstar

What's the cashier at the 7-11 going to say?

Ouch, bro...

316 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 5:50:48pm

Unless, of course, there was some surveillance camera we don't know about, or some witness filming the whole incident on their phone and hiding it etc. But if such things are to play role, they must come out now, because of double jeopardy (in case of a trial).

317 darthstar  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 5:53:04pm

re: #313 'M AFFN FUN

But yes, Obdi is right. It's one of those cases where moral culpability is clear but legal culpability is pretty improbable to establish.

Not really. Negligent homicide should be pretty easy to establish, unless the prosecution hesitates long enough for this to turn into the Natalie Halloway/Casey Anthony/Laci Peterson/OJ Simpson trial of the new century...a speedy prosecution favors the state. A delayed one favors the defendant and every opportunist celebrity lawyer that will come out of the woodwork to get their name on this trial.

318 Achilles Tang  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 5:54:37pm

re: #202 Talking Point Detective

Among my high school friends, every single one was smoking dope, which meant they were all buying dope, and not a few of them sold dope. I lived in a mixed-income, racially-mixed neighborhood and my school reflected those demographics. You can tell about your anecdotal experiences, and they aren't irrelevant, but you need to ground them in something larger - otherwise they just serve to confirm biases.

It is not a bias to point out, what some would like to ignore, that we have a self perpetuating underclass of people who know only one thing, drug dealing and defending territory for it. I had similar experience to what you describe also, but it was more of a social sharing than business enterprise in my time.

What do you suggest for an educational system that wouldn't "allow" kids to drop out? In particular, kids who grow up in neighborhoods where they rarely see anyone attain success by staying in school?

People write books on this. They don't see success by staying in school because those who do achieve that move away, and the remaining successful ones, in some kids' eyes, are the ones who make it big in drugs. Children having children without stable families is a big reason.

And where did you buy the straw to build the "all people need to do is be nicer to each other" straw man? Did you get a discount, because I suspect you could save by buying in bulk?

I already answered that. It was a quip that wasn't understood, not meant to be a strawman. Please consider it retracted.

319 Daniel Ballard  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 5:54:50pm

re: #289 Obdicut

We will probably never know.

Leaving us with at least a reasonable doubt even if the law was significantly different.

Would you agree with these statements?

Nobody has the right to declare Trayvon the attacker. We know he was stalked. We can only wonder how he came to fight GZ.

Anyone wanting to call GZ a murderer has to answer to his injuries somehow.

320 Kragar  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 5:55:13pm

A fight for Trayvon Martin is a war against stereotypes

As a native of Houston, I grew up in a black neighborhood. Went to a black church. Attended mostly black schools. I've seen every kind of black person possible. The drug dealer. The doctor. The bully. The postal worker. The crack addict. The city councilman. And never have I walked in fear of black folks who have given me no reason to be scared.

Oh, let's be clear, I've seen a group of menacing looking black folks who scared the hell out of me. But I can say the same for whites, Hispanics and Asians.

What the Trayvon Martin shooting should tell us is that the stereotypes that we have of people can have deadly consequences. Martin was nothing more than a young man wearing athletic shoes, jeans and a hoodie. For George Zimmerman, that's the uniform of a suspicious person. And it apparently was that simple observation that led Zimmerman to follow Martin in his car, get out, confront Martin and eventually shoot him fatally.

It has been amazing to listen to the reaction of some folks. But nothing got me more charged up than hearing Geraldo Rivera say on "Fox and Friends" that by wearing a hoodie, Martin contributed to his own death.
...
He might have thought he was well-meaning, but Geraldo, that's just nonsense. It wasn't Trayvon's hoodie that led to his death; it was the skin color. It was what was going through Zimmerman's mind when he saw the kid. We do a disservice to ourselves when we try to explain away such nonsense.

In a show of solidarity, all the Miami Heat took a photo wearing the team's hoodies, with their hands stuffed in their pockets. The leader of this effort was my good friend, Dwyane Wade. Wade also posted a picture of himself in a hoodie on his Facebook page and linked to it from Twitter tagged with "#hoodies #stereotypes #trayvonmartin"

"I'm a father," Wade told the South Florida Sun Sentinel. "It's support of the tragic thing that has taken place. No matter what color, race, we're all fathers."

The problem today is that minorities, especially men -- black men -- have long had to make accommodations for the negative view others have of us.

See, it doesn't matter about our degrees. Our fine, tailored suits don't matter. We've made all the accommodations to fit into this society. We've cut our hair. We are careful about the clothes we wear. We change how we talk so as not to sound threatening. We're fine, upstanding citizens. Yet we still are seen as suspicious. And in the case of Trayvon Martin, end up dead.

We are sick and tired of being seen as suspicious. We are sick and tired of being seen as a stereotype and not as a full human being. We are sick and tired of having to give our black boys "the talk" and still having to bury them so young.

321 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 5:55:21pm

re: #317 darthstar

For that they would have to refute the self-defense story GZ told. There's a chance if he gave several accounts and there are major contradictions between them. Otherwise, not so much. The SYG law shields him.

322 Obdicut  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 5:56:13pm

re: #319 Daniel Ballard

Leaving us with at least a reasonable doubt even if the law was significantly different.

Would you agree with these statements?

No.

323 Daniel Ballard  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 5:57:23pm

re: #321 'M AFFN FUN

For that they would have to refute the self-defense story GZ told. There's a chance if he gave several accounts and there are major contradictions between them. Otherwise, not so much. The SYG law shields him.

It does not give carte blanch on force. The standard is "reasonable". He could take a hit on excessive force in legit self defense

324 Daniel Ballard  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 5:57:50pm

re: #322 Obdicut

Why not given what's missing?

325 darthstar  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 5:58:02pm

re: #321 'M AFFN FUN

For that they would have to refute the self-defense story GZ told. There's a chance if he gave several accounts and there are major contradictions between them. Otherwise, not so much. The SYG law shields him.

Stand Your Ground doesn't shield him if his story is bullshit...otherwise, it would be a green light for murder under any circumstance. If his story has major contradictions, then he rightly should be legally fucked.

326 erik_t  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 5:59:02pm

re: #325 darthstar

Stand Your Ground doesn't shield him if his story is bullshit...otherwise, it would be a green light for murder under any circumstance. If his story has major contradictions, then he rightly should be legally fucked.

He'd be legally fucked for lying to police, but presumably not on the hook for murder.

327 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 5:59:16pm

re: #323 Daniel Ballard

It does not give carte blanch on force. The standard is "reasonable". He could take a hit on excessive force in legit self defense

This includes suspicion of a threat, acc. to this law. GZ already says TM tried to grab his gun.

328 Gus  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 5:59:35pm
329 Talking Point Detective  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 6:00:07pm

re: #318 Blue Spot Vlamingii Tang

I'll try to respond later.

330 Achilles Tang  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 6:00:55pm

re: #251 Shvaughn

So then what do you think causes the discrepancy, if it's not "only due to police, or legal, biases?" You think it's not racism and you downplay inequalities in the system, so what's your answer?

If you seriously think that the rates of incarceration are entirely due to police and legal bigotries I really don't know where to start to answer you.

331 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 6:01:31pm

re: #325 darthstar

Well, we agree, with one small addition: if the state can prove beyond the reasonable doubt that his story is bullshit. Which may turn out to be a pretty difficult task if GZ is consistent.

332 Kragar  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 6:01:37pm

I have no doubt in my mind that if TM had wrestled Zimmerman's gun away from him, he would have been arrested for assault by the local PD.

333 Daniel Ballard  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 6:02:29pm

re: #325 darthstar

There are a number of ways SYG could be ruled out or set aside on this case. But if you really want to use this case to end SYG, you have to argue to elevate it's standing above all of those objections.

Again I think SYG in public is a bad way to balance defensive rights and keeping aggressive people at bay. I really prefer what California does, and that is look at the level of force. It also carefully considers location, as in who approached who. Either of those legal standards would help in Sanford.

334 Shvaughn  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 6:02:44pm

re: #330 Blue Spot Vlamingii Tang

If you seriously think that the rates of incarceration are entirely due to police and legal bigotries I really don't know where to start to answer you.

Let me repeat:

So then what do you think causes the discrepancy, if it's not "only due to police, or legal, biases?" You think it's not racism and you downplay inequalities in the system, so what's your answer?

335 Daniel Ballard  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 6:04:17pm

re: #327 'M AFFN FUN

Is that in a deposition or just media reports?
If a guy reaches for your gun and you get it first you still do not have permission to shoot unless the attack continues. Sometime forensics can help there, we seem to have none of that either way.

336 lawhawk  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 6:07:20pm

Greets and saluts from the NYC metro area. Still trying to catch up on news and everything as I was away from the country for a bit. Caught up on my personal time with Mrs. Lawhawk in Israel. Got to show her some of the country and had an awesome time. Definitely have to go back much more quickly than I did the last time. And yet it felt like I never left. It was a warm and comfortable feeling - like being home and surrounded by all the comforts.

If you ever get the chance to go, don't pass it up. The news stories may chase off some folks, but you would really miss out on the experience of a lifetime.

337 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 6:07:27pm

re: #335 Daniel Ballard

I'm too tired to search now, but it's in the latest reports about what GZ's police file contains. If GZ argued that TM was trying to grab his gun while already being on top of him (which is unclear to me), and TM allegedly continued the attack, this may be seen as an excuse to use it.

338 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 6:08:09pm

re: #336 lawhawk

Which cities?

339 darthstar  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 6:08:12pm

re: #326 erik_t

He'd be legally fucked for lying to police, but presumably not on the hook for murder.

If he knew he could use SYG as a defense, then he's legally fucked.

340 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 6:09:16pm

re: #326 erik_t

He'd be legally fucked for lying to police, but presumably not on the hook for murder.

Oh, not murder, but the self-defense argument collapses and he can be prosecuted at least for something.

341 Daniel Ballard  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 6:10:32pm

re: #337 'M AFFN FUN

I'm too tired to search now, but it's in the latest reports about what GZ's police file contains. If GZ argued that TM was trying to grab his gun while already being on top of him (which is unclear to me), and TM allegedly continued the attack, this may be seen as an excuse to use it.

And IF that is the truth of what happened, we still don't know who started the fight apart from GZ's word.

Unless we are to set what GZ has said aside based on his behaviors? Calling 911 incessantly, lying about Trayvons suspicious nature, following him.

BTW saw the Pershing Square gathering of protesters for a march tonight. A growing loud peaceful crowd, with lots of photogs and media.

342 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 6:10:37pm

I found the Turkish "Hitler" ad we've been discussing earlier. Gosh, it's so stupid.

343 b_sharp  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 6:10:54pm

Back in the 70s I lived in the rich area of town where everybody's parents were doctors, lawyers, business owners, even judges. The drugs were free flowing and highly available. The cops were few and far between. Arrests did not happen.

I moved in with my mother in the poorest section of town where the drugs were no more plentiful, but the cop presence certainly was. Arrests happened.

The difference? A large aboriginal population, and no lawyers, doctors, or judges for parents.

344 lawhawk  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 6:11:37pm

re: #338 'M AFFN FUN

Jerusalem, Tzvat, Ein Bokeh, Haifa, Tel Aviv, Caesarea, it was through a tour group..

Also got to see the Syrian border and Golan Heights, stayed on a kibbutz, and shopped in both the Tel Aviv and Jerusalem markets. Tons of walking and also hiked down Masada.

345 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 6:12:03pm

re: #341 Daniel Ballard

The court cannot presume that GZ started it without refuting his story.

346 Obdicut  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 6:12:28pm

re: #324 Daniel Ballard

Why not given what's missing?

Because if the law mandated appropriate force, there would be a lot more to go on.

347 jaunte  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 6:12:59pm
348 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 6:15:28pm

And anyway, what about the feds investigating? Heard they can only start something in relation to a hate crime, which would be even harder to prove in court beyond the reasonable doubt, right? If the feds fail in their inspection of the case, then that's all? The police won't/can't re-open it?

349 Daniel Ballard  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 6:15:29pm

re: #346 Obdicut

Because if the law mandated appropriate force, there would be a lot more to go on.

You mean more evidence gathered? It was still a crime scene.

350 Achilles Tang  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 6:15:42pm

re: #253 Obdicut

You're old-fashioned.

I said it first. Take it as you will.

Therefore, pointing out that blacks are incarcerated for dealing at a higher rate than whites, on its own, means nothing.

People are not generally incarcerated for long for possession of personal usage quantities alone. That suggests that most of those who are, were dealers not users, but I get the impression that people here are suggesting that the primary reason there are so many more, proportionately, blacks in prison is because the system is out to get them, and letting the whites go free, or not bothering with white dealers. Nothing in my experience, or reading, suggests that is true overall, specific anecdotes or some parts of the country notwithstanding.

I'm suggesting that we should do a lot to fix the inequities in the judicial and legal system, which demonstrably, provably exist. That doesn't involve just being nicer to people. And I don't think that would solve the problem of drug dealing among the poor subclasses, either, of any race. It'd just be, you know, nice to do, because of justice and all that stuff.

I am all in favor of fixing whatever it takes to reduce the problem, legal, family planning, education and all. Until we can figure out how to do that however, it would be nice if we could remove the existing criminals, or criminal opportunities, from the streets as much as possible since they only serve to perpetuate the problem. Pretending that they are victims solves nothing.

351 Achilles Tang  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 6:17:10pm

re: #261 Talking Point Detective

Who suggested that? Someone from one of your anecdotal experiences?

No, right here if you read some more comments.

352 jaunte  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 6:17:34pm

re: #350 Blue Spot Vlamingii Tang

More prisons ought to do it.
"No nation on the planet holds more of its people behind bars: 2.3 million prisoners—as many as China and Russia combined."

MSNBC Video
353 Kragar  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 6:21:26pm

re: #352 jaunte

More prisons ought to do it.
"No nation on the planet holds more of its people behind bars: 2.3 million prisoners—as many as China and Russia combined."
[Link: www.msnbc.msn.com...]

Better privatize them to save money.
/

354 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 6:22:10pm

re: #353 Kragar

Better privatize them to save money.
/

And the police too.

355 God of Binders with Women  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 6:23:11pm

"Little Dick" Dan is a fucking weirdo:

356 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 6:23:41pm

re: #355 Lord of Republicandoucheistan

He writes like a pedo.

357 Achilles Tang  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 6:24:14pm

re: #334 Shvaughn

Let me repeat:

So then what do you think causes the discrepancy, if it's not "only due to police, or legal, biases?" You think it's not racism and you downplay inequalities in the system, so what's your answer?

I don't downplay inequalities in the system, but not as simplistically attributed to bigotry as you seem to do. As I said before, I really don't know where to start with someone who thinks it is all simple racism or bigotry towards low income groups, even though black sectors suffer the most in this regard.

358 God of Binders with Women  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 6:24:47pm

re: #356 'M AFFN FUN

He writes like a pedo.

And accuses Charles of being a child molester. Go figure.

359 SpaceJesus  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 6:25:28pm

Here is a little context: Even Allen West is outraged by this.

360 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 6:26:07pm

re: #358 Lord of Republicandoucheistan

IT ADMITS THAT TRAYVON WAS GANGSTA OR IT GETS THE HOSE AGAIN

361 Kragar  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 6:26:29pm

re: #354 'M AFFN FUN

And the police too.

What could possibly go wrong?

I heard OCP did a great job.

362 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 6:27:12pm

re: #361 Kragar

I heard OCP did a great job.

Also: get out off my lawn mind.

363 God of Binders with Women  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 6:27:16pm

re: #360 'M AFFN FUN

I SAID PUT THE LOTION IN THE GOD DAMNED BASKET!!!

364 b_sharp  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 6:27:54pm

Blacks are subject to a positive feedback whites are not. Because of stereotyping predominantly black communities have a more critical police presence if not a higher number of police. This makes arrests more probable. The higher arrest rate validates the stereotype in minds unwilling to think beyond their biases.

365 Kragar  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 6:28:34pm

re: #362 'M AFFN FUN

Also: get out off my lawn mind.

Youtube Video
366 Daniel Ballard  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 6:28:36pm

Does anyone really believe Trayvon was the aggressor?
I just can't get myself to think so.

367 Achilles Tang  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 6:29:06pm

re: #343 Bondo

All the more reason to legalize. However I have to point out that in the first part of town very few distributors would have been doing it as their main or sole source of income, whereas in the second it probably was. You probably didn't worry about getting shot in the first, but you quite likely did in the second.

368 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 6:29:16pm

re: #366 Daniel Ballard

Does anyone really believe Trayvon was the aggressor?
I just can't get myself to think so.

Oh, it depends. Suppose GZ used the n-bomb...

369 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 6:32:13pm

re: #368 'M AFFN FUN

Oh, it depends. Suppose GZ used the n-bomb...

(Note: this would still leave the blame for provocation squarely on GZ, obviously.)

370 Killgore Trout  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 6:32:38pm

re: #366 Daniel Ballard

Does anyone really believe Trayvon was the aggressor?
I just can't get myself to think so.

It's hard to tell from available accounts but the police seem to believe Zimmerman's story of walking back to his truck when he was attacked. It might be true or not but that seems to be what the initial police investigation believed. They claim eyewitness accounts corroborate the story. Details are still way too sketchy for me to form an opinion.

371 Shvaughn  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 6:33:16pm

re: #357 Blue Spot Vlamingii Tang

I don't downplay inequalities in the system, but not as simplistically attributed to bigotry as you seem to do. As I said before, I really don't know where to start with someone who thinks it is all simple racism or bigotry towards low income groups, even though black sectors suffer the most in this regard.

So you don't really know?

Because, I'm asking you what else, and all you can do is say I'm too stupid for you to tell me (based on your mischaracterization of what I believe).

I'm just wanting you to say it: Why DO you think more black people are locked up?

372 Charles Johnson  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 6:33:24pm

"Stand Your Ground" laws are a horrible result of the Tea Party surge. They need to be repealed before any more people are killed by vigilantes. They're a right wing perversion of the concept of self-defense.

373 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 6:33:53pm

re: #370 Killgore Trout

It's hard to tell from available accounts but the police seem to believe Zimmerman's story of walking back to his truck when he was attacked. It might be true or not but that seems to be what the initial police investigation believed. They claim eyewitness accounts corroborate the story. Details are still way too sketchy for me to form an opinion.

They do not claim that eyewitness accounts corroborate that GZ was attacked by TM. So the passage above is misleading.

374 God of Binders with Women  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 6:34:59pm

Nice:

375 Shvaughn  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 6:35:04pm

re: #370 Killgore Trout

Hey KT, did you ever answer why you are "withholding judgment until the facts are all in" on this case, but you rarely do so when, say, it involves an OWS accusation?

376 Killgore Trout  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 6:35:41pm

re: #375 Shvaughn

Hey KT, did you ever answer why you are "withholding judgment until the facts are all in" on this case, but you rarely do so when, say, it involves an OWS accusation?

Yes, I did.

377 lawhawk  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 6:36:03pm

re: #366 Daniel Ballard

I was overseas when all this broke in the news and I was confounded why BBC and Sky News were covering the incident. More to the point, I couldn't understand why charges weren't being brought by the prosecutors. From what I can tell, Zimmerman claims self defense, but let a grand jury see if there was anything to go on... and prosecutors didn't even pursue it until the outrage went international. Bizarre. Which gets me thinking that I'm missing something else going on here.

378 ReamWorks SKG  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 6:37:07pm

see the NY Times on Zimmerman's testimony
[Link: www.nytimes.com...]

379 SpaceJesus  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 6:37:53pm

re: #377 lawhawk

Horrible police work

380 Killgore Trout  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 6:38:14pm

re: #377 lawhawk

I was overseas when all this broke in the news and I was confounded why BBC and Sky News were covering the incident. More to the point, I couldn't understand why charges weren't being brought by the prosecutors. From what I can tell, Zimmerman claims self defense, but let a grand jury see if there was anything to go on... and prosecutors didn't even pursue it until the outrage went international. Bizarre. Which gets me thinking that I'm missing something else going on here.

There were claims that the police were racists and let Zimmerman go because he is "white". The local police seemed willing to open themselves up to federal oversight in hopes that things might blow over.

381 EdDantes  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 6:39:01pm

dre: #372 Charles Johnson

"Stand Your Ground" laws are a horrible result of the Tea Party surge. They need to be repealed before any more people are killed by vigilantes. They're a right wing perversion of the concept of self-defense.

I believe the law was well-intentioned but it should not become a "007" law.

382 darthstar  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 6:40:14pm

re: #378 ReamWorks

see the NY Times on Zimmerman's testimony
[Link: www.nytimes.com...]

Let me get this straight...He got his ass kicked by a 17 year old black guy who weighed 80 lbs less than him, so he shoots him and claims self defense? Sounds like Trayvon was done with him and stopped the beating.

In an account given to Sanford police that was passed on to the state attorney’s office, George Zimmerman, the neighborhood watch volunteer who shot 17-year-old Trayvon Martin on Feb. 26, said that Trayvon had punched him and then repeatedly slammed his head into the sidewalk in the moments leading up to the shooting.

383 Daniel Ballard  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 6:40:51pm

re: #377 lawhawk

If you don't mind take a peek at the Page I did. Very interested in your thought. It's a longish piece... I'm trying to make the case it should not apply.

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

384 Shvaughn  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 6:41:24pm

re: #376 Killgore Trout

Yes, I did.

Cool thanks!

385 darthstar  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 6:41:45pm

re: #381 EdDantes

d

I believe the law was well-intentioned but it should not become a "007" law.

It was written by the gun lobby. Well intentioned? Well financed, maybe.

386 Shvaughn  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 6:41:59pm

re: #381 EdDantes

d

I believe the law was well-intentioned but it should not become a "007" law.

What is the intent of the law, apart from being a license to kill?

387 Killgore Trout  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 6:42:25pm

re: #373 'M AFFN FUN

They do not claim that eyewitness accounts corroborate that GZ was attacked by TM. So the passage above is misleading.

Trayvon Martin Death: Police Say Witnesses Back Zimmerman's Story

388 Killgore Trout  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 6:42:45pm

re: #384 Shvaughn

Cool thanks!

Cheers!

389 Charles Johnson  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 6:44:00pm

re: #381 EdDantes

d

I believe the law was well-intentioned but it cannot become a "007" law.

I do not believe these laws were well-intentioned. I believe frontier vigilante justice was exactly what these laws were intended to promote, and the NRA never even stopped to consider the inevitable consequences.

This is what happens when wingnuts are allowed to determine policy.

390 Mocking Jay  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 6:44:34pm

re: #387 Killgore Trout

Trayvon Martin Death: Police Say Witnesses Back Zimmerman's Story

Was that before or after the police started telling witnesses what they heard?

391 Killgore Trout  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 6:44:39pm

re: #373 'M AFFN FUN

Also see: Report: Police Say Evidence Indicates Trayvon Martin Attacked Zimmerman

392 b_sharp  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 6:45:03pm

re: #386 Shvaughn

What is the intent of the law, apart from being a license to kill?

Fulfilling a few fantasies.

393 jaunte  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 6:45:05pm

John F. Timoney: Florida’s Disastrous Self-Defense Law

"...I pointed out at the time that even a police officer is held to account for every single bullet he or she discharges, so why should a private citizen be given more rights when it came to using deadly physical force? I also asked the bill’s sponsor, State Representative Dennis K. Baxley, to point to any case in Florida where a homeowner had been indicted or arrested as a result of “defending his castle.” He could not come up with a single one."

The only thing that is worse than a bad law is an unnecessary law.* Clearly, this was the case here.

*Unless your goal is to sell more guns.

394 Kragar  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 6:45:14pm

re: #391 Killgore Trout

Also see: Report: Police Say Evidence Indicates Trayvon Martin Attacked Zimmerman

Because the police have zero interest in covering their own ass.

395 darthstar  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 6:45:52pm

Well, this Trayvon Martin story is starting to reach my non-blogging friends on facebook, who are all expressing their disbelief, so it's got legs.

396 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 6:45:55pm

re: #387 Killgore Trout

Trayvon Martin Death: Police Say Witnesses Back Zimmerman's Story

You just don't get it, do you? No witness aside from GZ describes the initial moments of the altercation. All the witnesses published until now describe what happened during and after the fight. They don't corroborate (or refute) GZ's account of how it began. Duh.

397 erik_t  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 6:46:25pm

Newsmax. So it has come to this.

398 Charles Johnson  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 6:46:45pm

re: #391 Killgore Trout

Also see: Report: Police Say Evidence Indicates Trayvon Martin Attacked Zimmerman

Dude. Newsmax? Seriously?

399 SpaceJesus  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 6:47:10pm

These are feeler laws. The NRA puts them out there when nobody needs them, just to see how far they might be able to go. The NRA has far worse gun laws in the works, it just needs laws like this as stepping stones to get to them eventually.

400 EdDantes  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 6:47:34pm

Darth, Shvaughn,
I haven't read the law but I was under the impression it was enacted to allow citizens to protect themselves against assault. I may be wrong.
In any case, no law should allow one person to hunt another.

401 b_sharp  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 6:47:36pm

re: #393 jaunte

John F. Timoney: Florida’s Disastrous Self-Defense Law

*Unless your goal is to sell more guns.

Next up: We need bigger guns.

402 darthstar  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 6:47:46pm

re: #397 erik_t

Newsmax. So it has come to this.

Newsmax, when the truth isn't on your side and small lies won't suffice.

403 Gus  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 6:47:53pm

re: #387 Killgore Trout

Trayvon Martin Death: Police Say Witnesses Back Zimmerman's Story

Newsmax? Was the deliberate?

404 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 6:48:45pm

re: #403 Gus

Newsmax? Was the deliberate?

I believe so. However, I addressed the argument without merely dismissing the source, if such was KT's hope ;)

405 Shvaughn  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 6:48:53pm

re: #403 Gus

Newsmax? Was the deliberate?

Maybe it's parody of some kind that I'm not subtle enough to understand.

406 Gus  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 6:48:58pm

re: #397 erik_t

Newsmax. So it has come to this.

"Yeah, the links to VDARE, Stormfront and Malkin completely destroy the credibility of the article. I agree with the central point..."

407 Gus  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 6:49:24pm

re: #405 Shvaughn

Maybe it's parody of some kind that I'm not subtle enough to understand.

Clearly you're not engaging your Zen.

//

408 McSpiff  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 6:50:07pm

re: #396 'M AFFN FUN

You just don't get it, do you? No witness aside from GZ describes the initial moments of the altercation. All the witnesses published until now describe what happened during and after the fight. They don't corroborate (or refute) GZ's account of how it began. Duh.

He gets it. He doesnt care. The truth be dammed, he has his message to push. Liberals = bad.

409 darthstar  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 6:50:21pm

re: #400 EdDantes

Darth, Shvaughn,
I haven't read the law but I was under the impression it was enacted to allow citizens to protect themselves against assault. I may be wrong.
In any case, no law should allow one person to hunt another.

And that's where SYG ends. As soon as he pursued Trayvon, SYG became irrelevant. You can't claim self defense if you provoke someone.

410 Daniel Ballard  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 6:52:06pm

re: #389 Charles Johnson

California has this about right. No SYG away from home, we do have a kind of Castle law. The big cities issue few CCW. That law is "good cause good character" which is fine with me. Shall issue is too light a control.

In ordinary fights the defender often eats a misdemeanor assault conviction as a plea bargain. It's rarely clear who is the agressor, unless you got witnesses. One man I know (fellow student) hit a drunken agro attacker with a 3 hit combo that broke facial bones after taking a hit and blocking a couple. The DA filed on two counts excessive force. Dude pled out to one. His attorney was afraid his black belt would convict him.

411 Obdicut  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 6:52:23pm

re: #350 Blue Spot Vlamingii Tang

Read my post again. You didn't understand it.

412 Varek Raith  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 6:52:25pm

re: #387 Killgore Trout

Trayvon Martin Death: Police Say Witnesses Back Zimmerman's Story

Image: 1t0m.jpg

413 Killgore Trout  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 6:53:27pm

re: #398 Charles Johnson

Dude. Newsmax? Seriously?

It's a widely reported story from many news outlets you can google it yourself. If you find anything different be sure to let me know.

414 Mocking Jay  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 6:53:44pm

O'Donnell's going to have Zimm's lawyer on.

415 lawhawk  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 6:54:15pm

re: #383 Daniel Ballard

Interesting analysis. And I would tend to agree with it - stand your ground analysis only comes into play after you determine whether GZ precipitated the attack or not. If GZ precipitated the attack, then TM actually gets the benefit of the stand your ground analysis (and he was in the right when GZ killed him - not the other way around) because TM had no duty to retreat.

Stand your ground may make sense when dealing with home invasions, but doesn't make sense when you're in a street situation where walking/running away can defuse the situation and prevent further harms (to either party involved).

416 Shvaughn  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 6:54:36pm

re: #413 Killgore Trout

It's a widely reported story from many news outlets you can google it yourself. If you find anything different be sure to let me know.

Yay! I knew you'd double-down.

417 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 6:54:39pm

re: #402 darthstar

Newsmax, when the truth isn't on your side and small lies won't suffice.

When the facts are on your side, pound the facts. When they aren't, pound the table.

Evening Lizardim. What a dirty rotten mess this whole Trayvon Martin business has turned into. One thing is for sure - this is exactly the sort of "Old West" style vigilante justice the NRA has been pining for. I hope they're enjoying it while it lasts, because in the 21st century, we shouldn't be standing for it. I'm an adamant supporter of gun rights and even I think this is way, way, way over the line. Ugh.

418 darthstar  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 6:55:37pm

re: #414 Altar Boy of Darwinism

O'Donnell's going to have Zimm's lawyer on.

I'm tuning out all media coverage of this case. The temptation for them to grandstand is too great (even for Lawrence O'Donnell) to resist...and with that comes bad editorializing, at the expense of both Zimmerman and Martin.

419 Varek Raith  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 6:55:42pm

re: #413 Killgore Trout

It's a widely reported story from many news outlets you can google it yourself. If you find anything different be sure to let me know.

HAHAHAHAHA!

420 jaunte  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 6:55:45pm

Does an unauthorized neighborhood watchman have the "right to pursue?"

421 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 6:55:52pm

re: #370 Killgore Trout

It's hard to tell from available accounts but the police seem to believe Zimmerman's story of walking back to his truck when he was attacked. It might be true or not but that seems to be what the initial police investigation believed. They claim eyewitness accounts corroborate the story. Details are still way too sketchy for me to form an opinion.

To reiterate why I called it misleading. The passage starts with the discussion of the crucial detail - how did the physical altercation begin. It ends with the formally more or less true claim (by itself) - there are some witnesses who corroborate parts of GZ's story (i.e. "corroborate his story"). However, there are no witnesses who have seen the fight from the beginning (aside from GZ), so witnesses do not corroborate *that* crucial part of GZ's story. Yet KT's paragraph implies that witnesses corroborate GZ's whole story, and specifically his description of how the fight began.

422 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 6:55:57pm

re: #413 Killgore Trout

It's a widely reported story from many news outlets you can google it yourself. If you find anything different be sure to let me know.

I Paged it earlier this morning from ABC News. We're only getting one side of the story, and that's from the guy that lived to tell about it. I don't know if the true facts will ever actually come out in this case.

423 darthstar  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 6:56:40pm

Ooh...almost time for Jeopardy! See you all later...

424 Gus  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 6:57:36pm

re: #387 Killgore Trout

Trayvon Martin Death: Police Say Witnesses Back Zimmerman's Story

That link ends with this:

Movie director Spike Lee revealed Zimmerman’s home address in a Twitter message he retweeted to his quarter of a million followers at the weekend.

Last week President Barack Obama jumped into the case saying if he had a son “he would look like Trayvon.”

No donut. That isn't a very revealing story. I thought you were looking for justice instead of a media story?

425 Daniel Ballard  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 6:57:47pm

re: #415 lawhawk

Thank you for that. You may have seen I had to work to defend it a bit. :-)

426 Achilles Tang  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 6:58:08pm

re: #371 Shvaughn

So you don't really know?

Because, I'm asking you what else, and all you can do is say I'm too stupid for you to tell me (based on your mischaracterization of what I believe).

I'm just wanting you to say it: Why DO you think more black people are locked up?

You seem convinced it is because white people have decided to do so because they are black (not ignoring other groups, including poor whites).

Simple endemic racism to you. I don't think we would have elected a black president if it were that simple.

If you want a simple starting point answer, it is ignoring what would happen if we did nothing to prevent the development of single parent (women) families who have no possibility of raising children to anything but to perpetuate the status quo. Instead we have done, as you seem to do, ignored all factors other than racism and seemingly conclude that if we figured out how to arrest less criminal minorities and more majorities, then everything would just even out.

427 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 6:58:19pm

re: #65 jaunte

This kind of a statement should disqualify anyone from holding a police job. It's not their job to deal out punishment.

I strongly suggest that NOPD get rid of this guy before anything else happens.

428 Gus  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 6:59:17pm

[x] Sides with cops pepper spraying people.
[x] Sides with Rush Limbaugh on boycotts.
[x] Sides with Zimmerman.

429 Daniel Ballard  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 6:59:44pm

re: #420 jaunte

Does an unauthorized neighborhood watchman have the "right to pursue?"

Hell no. Not unless he can see a felony in progress.

430 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 7:00:10pm

re: #428 Gus

Three strikes? ///

431 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 7:00:17pm

re: #428 Gus

[x] Sides with cops pepper spraying people.
[x] Sides with Rush Limbaugh on boycotts.
[x] Sides with Zimmerman.

Inning's over. Hit the showers.

432 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 7:00:34pm

re: #430 'M AFFN FUN

Out of my head, you.

433 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 7:00:46pm

re: #68 Charles Johnson

I don't think it's "passing judgment" to say that Trayvon Martin is a victim in this case. If George Zimmerman, an armed self-appointed vigilante, had followed the instruction from 911 and stopped following Martin, none of this would have happened and Trayvon would still be alive today.

Yes, Zimmerman was the aggressor and Martin was the victim. That's just factual.

I agree. And I'm very critical of Zimmerman's actions.

But I don't know, in a court of law, what he would, or should, be found guilty of, and I can't say without this case actually being heard, which is the part I really want to actually happen.

And Martin was clearly the victim.

434 jaunte  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 7:01:19pm

re: #429 Daniel Ballard

So Trayvon Martin's response to being pursued by a stranger seems irrelevant, if Zimmerman initiated the chase.

435 Shvaughn  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 7:01:32pm

re: #426 Blue Spot Vlamingii Tang

You seem convinced it is because white people have decided to do so because they are black (not ignoring other groups, including poor whites).

Simple endemic racism to you. I don't think we would have elected a black president if it were that simple.

How about, if you really have an answer or three as to why the problem exists, you answer me instead of telling me what I'm convinced about?

You said "you're wrong, it's not X, and Y." And I said "Okay, if it's not X, and Y, then what is it?" and ever since, you've been replying with "OMG I CAN'T BELIEVE YOU THINK IT'S X AND Y." Instead of answering.

If you want a simple starting point answer, it is ignoring what would happen if we did nothing to prevent the development of single parent (women) families who have no possibility of raising children to anything but to perpetuate the status quo. Instead we have done, as you seem to do, ignored all factors other than racism and seemingly conclude that if we figured out how to arrest less criminal minorities and more majorities, then everything would just even out.

So the problem is women who are single mothers? That's the simple starting point? (Note that I never a single, simple starting point here.)

436 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 7:02:01pm

re: #428 Gus

[x] Sides with cops pepper spraying people.
[x] Sides with Rush Limbaugh on boycotts.
[x] Sides with Zimmerman.

You forgot Komen

437 Charles Johnson  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 7:02:02pm

re: #413 Killgore Trout

It's a widely reported story from many news outlets you can google it yourself. If you find anything different be sure to let me know.

I'm disappointed that you don't see how incredibly biased that article is, or why you should be suspicious of the source. It's not the same as the actual news articles on other sites - it's been rewritten in a major way by one of Newsmax's hacks.

438 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 7:02:05pm

re: #69 'M AFFN FUN

Legal issues aside (and a certain law may be on GZ's side), is the use of deadly force in response to fists morally justifiable?

Legal issues aside, I would say that it depends. Between two guys beating the crap out of each other in mutual combat in a bar? Probably not. If the victim has reason to believe they might be killed or crippled? Possibly.

439 b_sharp  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 7:02:07pm

I'll grant Trayvon threw the first punch, and that he got the better of Zimmerman, but I have a few questions;

Why did Trayvon attack Zimmerman? Did he feel sufficiently fearful, or was he angry at being dogged?

Did Zimmerman ever tell Tray that he was a member of the neighborhood watch?

Why was Zimmerman yelling help for so long? Did he not fight back? If not,why?

Where was his gun?

He was enrolled in classes to become a cop. Had he not taken classes on how to defuse situations like this?

440 Killgore Trout  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 7:02:20pm

re: #421 'M AFFN FUN

To reiterate why I called it misleading. The passage starts with the discussion of the crucial detail - how did the physical altercation begin. It ends with the formally more or less true claim (by itself) - there are some witnesses who corroborate parts of GZ's story (i.e. "corroborate his story"). However, there are no witnesses who have seen the fight from the beginning (aside from GZ), so witnesses do not corroborate *that* crucial part of GZ's story. Yet KT's paragraph implies that witnesses corroborate GZ's whole story, and specifically his description of how the fight began.

I think the core issue is that nothing in the eyewitness accounts have contradicted Zimmerman;s claims. I can easily see him fudging the truth or outright lying in a situation like this but at the time he talks to police he's under stress and hasn't had a lot of time to think. Cops are usually pretty good at sniffing these things out. His testimony seems to match the witnesses at this point.

441 EdDantes  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 7:03:14pm

Submitted without comment. I'm still processing.

[Link: www.huffingtonpost.ca...]

442 Mocking Jay  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 7:03:27pm

So GZ's lawyer walked out on Lawrence before the interview even started...

443 Achilles Tang  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 7:03:30pm

re: #433 SanFranciscoZionist

I agree. And I'm very critical of Zimmerman's actions.

But I don't know, in a court of law, what he would, or should, be found guilty of, and I can't say without this case actually being heard, which is the part I really want to actually happen.

And Martin was clearly the victim.

Without the SYG law (which even the sponsors said was not apparently applicable here) he would, and should, have at least been charged with involuntary manslaughter.

444 Shvaughn  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 7:03:45pm

re: #426 Blue Spot Vlamingii Tang

You seem convinced it is because white people have decided to do so because they are black (not ignoring other groups, including poor whites) ... Instead we have done, as you seem to do, ignored all factors other than racism and seemingly conclude that if we figured out how to arrest less criminal minorities and more majorities, then everything would just even out.

Also, I didn't say any of this stuff you're attributing to me.

I know, you think I'm stupid, but at least don't just make up shit and attribute it to me.

Oops, sorry, did I say a bad word?

445 Charles Johnson  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 7:04:31pm

re: #439 Bondo

I'll grant Trayvon threw the first punch, and that he got the better of Zimmerman, but I have a few questions;

Why did Trayvon attack Zimmerman? Did he feel sufficiently fearful, or was he angry at being dogged?

Did Zimmerman ever tell Tray that he was a member of the neighborhood watch?

Why was Zimmerman yelling help for so long? Did he not fight back? If not,why?

Where was his gun?

He was enrolled in classes to become a cop. Had he not taken classes on how to defuse situations like this?

Note: Zimmerman was NOT a member of any neighborhood watch group - he was a self-appointed vigilante. No legitimate neighborhood watch organization tells their members to carry guns.

446 jamesfirecat  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 7:04:58pm

re: #439 Bondo

I'll grant Trayvon threw the first punch, and that he got the better of Zimmerman, but I have a few questions;

Why did Trayvon attack Zimmerman? Did he feel sufficiently fearful, or was he angry at being dogged?

Did Zimmerman ever tell Tray that he was a member of the neighborhood watch?

Why was Zimmerman yelling help for so long? Did he not fight back? If not,why?

Where was his gun?

He was enrolled in classes to become a cop. Had he not taken classes on how to defuse situations like this?

My big question is as follows...

There is a struggle, Trayvon gets Zimmeran's gun and shoots him.... is Trayvon "standing his ground"? He was approached by a stranger who was not a member of an actual appointed neighborhood watch in the middle of a public place after all....

447 Shvaughn  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 7:05:01pm

re: #428 Gus

[x] Sides with cops pepper spraying people.
[x] Sides with Rush Limbaugh on boycotts.
[x] Sides with Zimmerman.

I think that OWS broke him and he got stuck on "contrarian" mode.

448 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 7:05:52pm

re: #445 Charles Johnson

Note: Zimmerman was NOT a member of any neighborhood watch group - he was a self-appointed vigilante. No legitimate neighborhood watch organization tells their members to carry guns.

This was the point that bothered me to begin with. I understand the idea of a neighborhood watch, but it just didn't fit with the way events unfolded.

449 jamesfirecat  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 7:05:56pm

re: #440 Killgore Trout

I think the core issue is that nothing in the eyewitness accounts have contradicted Zimmerman;s claims. I can easily see him fudging the truth or outright lying in a situation like this but at the time he talks to police he's under stress and hasn't had a lot of time to think. Cops are usually pretty good at sniffing these things out. His testimony seems to match the witnesses at this point.

For cops to sniff things out they have to be trying to sniff rather than covering their noses.

450 moderatelyradicalliberal  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 7:06:20pm

Oil has been discovered in Kenya.

Thank goodness we have a president who was born there!

I call dibs!

[Link: www.balloon-juice.com...]

451 Shvaughn  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 7:07:04pm

re: #441 EdDantes

Well, that sucks that she got thrown out.

452 Shvaughn  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 7:07:37pm

re: #445 Charles Johnson

Note: Zimmerman was NOT a member of any neighborhood watch group - he was a self-appointed vigilante. No legitimate neighborhood watch organization tells their members to carry guns.

In fact, they tell them not to, as I understand it.

453 Killgore Trout  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 7:08:16pm

re: #437 Charles Johnson

I'm disappointed that you don't see how incredibly biased that article is, or why you should be suspicious of the source. It's not the same as the actual news articles on other sites - it's been rewritten in a major way by one of Newsmax's hacks.

I've seen nothing that indicates that police believe there's a contradiction between the eyewitness accounts and Zimmerman's story. The fact that they haven't charged him leads me to believe that the evidence available to police doesn't indicate that Zimmerman is guilty of a crime.

454 Gus  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 7:08:26pm

re: #440 Killgore Trout

I think the core issue is that nothing in the eyewitness accounts have contradicted Zimmerman;s claims. I can easily see him fudging the truth or outright lying in a situation like this but at the time he talks to police he's under stress and hasn't had a lot of time to think. Cops are usually pretty good at sniffing these things out. His testimony seems to match the witnesses at this point.

So basically what you're saying is the Trayvon should have been "an obedient negro" and listened to the self-appointed "neighborhood watch" vigilante and then he would have "gottens into trouble" with Zimmerman and getting shot in the end.

455 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 7:08:41pm

re: #440 Killgore Trout

I don't take issue with the statement that the witnesses we know so far don't seem to contradict GZ on major points. I'm also not accusing you of lying, otherwise I would have said so. I simply pointed out how focusing on a single - though crucial - detail about the start of the fight (which no independent witness corroborates or refutes so far) and then switching to the claim that witnesses corroborate "the story" is misleading (whether intentionally or not), since the most natural interpretation of "the story" in context of your paragraph is that it refers to GZ's account of how the fight began, not his whole story (which may or may not have been your point).

456 Gus  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 7:09:09pm

re: #453 Killgore Trout

I've seen nothing that indicates that police believe there's a contradiction between the eyewitness accounts and Zimmerman's story. The fact that they haven't charged him leads me to believe that the evidence available to police doesn't indicate that Zimmerman is guilty of a crime.

Yes sir Mr. Bossman.

457 Achilles Tang  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 7:09:42pm

re: #435 Shvaughn

How about, if you really have an answer or three as to why the problem exists, you answer me instead of telling me what I'm convinced about?

Read your own posts. That is what it sounds like, but if I misunderstood, or you didn't properly explain, then the appropriate response would be to clarify further, as most rational debaters would do.

You said "you're wrong, it's not X, and Y." And I said "Okay, if it's not X, and Y, then what is it?" and ever since, you've been replying with "OMG I CAN'T BELIEVE YOU THINK IT'S X AND Y." Instead of answering.

Goobledygock

So the problem is women who are single mothers? That's the simple starting point? (Note that I never a single, simple starting point here.)

More accurately stated might be "children having children", but yes, it takes a lot to raise children to be successful in life and one way to succeed in that is not to have them until one can do so. This is by the way not something I have just made up.

458 Mocking Jay  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 7:09:44pm

re: #441 EdDantes

Submitted without comment. I'm still processing.

[Link: www.huffingtonpost.ca...]

If finding her atrractive makes me gay I'll gladly pick up my pass to the Blue Oyster Bar...

459 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 7:09:44pm

re: #446 jamesfirecat

My big question is as follows...

There is a struggle, Trayvon gets Zimmeran's gun and shoots him... is Trayvon "standing his ground"? He was approached by a stranger who was not a member of an actual appointed neighborhood watch in the middle of a public place after all...

Formally, yes. Factually, he's black.

460 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 7:09:53pm

re: #188 Obdicut

Well, it's done now. The assholes who want to spread it, and the other stories about him, will happily do so.

I wonder if they ever take five seconds and think "I'm spending my time talking shit about a young man who died scared and alone."

No, and they are being deeply put upon and oppressed by your suggestion that they should.

461 Killgore Trout  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 7:09:56pm

re: #455 'M AFFN FUN

I don't take issue with the statement that the witnesses we know so far don't seem to contradict GZ on major points. I'm also not accusing you of lying, otherwise I would have said so. I simply pointed out how focusing on a single - though crucial - detail about the start of the fight (which no independent witness corroborates or refutes so far) and then switching to the claim that witnesses corroborate "the story" is misleading (whether intentionally or not), since the most natural interpretation of "the story" in context of your paragraph is that it refers to GZ's account of how the fight began, not his whole story (which may or may not have been your point).

Fair enough. we'll all know more soon.

462 McSpiff  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 7:09:58pm

re: #440 Killgore Trout

This is parody at this point.

463 goddamnedfrank  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 7:10:05pm

This thread has struck a rich vein of snark.

464 Shvaughn  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 7:10:07pm

re: #453 Killgore Trout

I've seen nothing that indicates that police believe there's a contradiction between the eyewitness accounts and Zimmerman's story. The fact that they haven't charged him leads me to believe that the evidence available to police doesn't indicate that Zimmerman is guilty of a crime.

KT this might be helpful to extricate yourself:

"Oops, mea culpa, I googled quickly and I didn't really realize I was dropping a newsmax link until it was already there. Here's a better version of the story: URL"

465 Sheila Broflovski  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 7:10:18pm

re: #217 Lidane

God damn people in this country are stupid:

Some 'Hunger Games' fans upset that character of Rue is black

She's described as black in the book. How is it a surprise if she's black in the movie? WTF.

The same people who were pissed that the Guardian of Asgard in the "Thor" movie was Black?

//because dagnabbit Thor is a White Man's god!

466 lawhawk  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 7:11:03pm

re: #446 jamesfirecat

Once again, it goes back to who initiated the incident - TM or GZ. And whether you can distinguish between incidents in the timeline so as to create a new starting point for the incident (which is what GZ's lawyers will claim) so as to favor self defense.

In other words, if you have TM being followed by GZ and TM hits GZ, and then GZ shoots TM, GZ's lawyers would want the jury to focus solely on the TM hitting GZ - supporting the self defense claim. However, it would ignore the events prior.

Setting out the timeline will be critical to the case.

467 Shvaughn  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 7:11:13pm

re: #458 Altar Boy of Darwinism

If finding her atrractive makes me gay I'll gladly pick up my pass to the Blue Oyster Bar...

It doesn't actually make you gay (assuming you're male).

468 jamesfirecat  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 7:11:34pm

Lawerence is really unloading on that chair, well somebody has to...

469 SpaceJesus  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 7:11:51pm

Lawrence Odonnell is very very pissed

470 Varek Raith  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 7:11:57pm

re: #458 Altar Boy of Darwinism

If finding her atrractive makes me gay I'll gladly pick up my pass to the Blue Oyster Bar...

Yep.
I'm so confused!
XD

471 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 7:11:57pm

re: #463 goddamnedfrank

This thread has struck a rich vein of snark.

You NEVER go full snark.

472 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 7:12:16pm

re: #203 SidewaysQuark

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and guess the victim is the one who died unarmed.

As I see it, the only controversy is what specific variety of homicide Zimmerman should be indicted for.

Manslaughter if he can persuade the jury he genuinely meant no harm to kid, but wanted to get him arrested, and panicked when an altercation began.

Murder in the second degree if he can't.

I suppose. I am no legal scholar.

473 Shvaughn  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 7:12:57pm

re: #457 Blue Spot Vlamingii Tang

More accurately stated might be "children having children", but yes, it takes a lot to raise children to be successful in life and one way to succeed in that is not to have them until one can do so. This is by the way not something I have just made up.

Why are black children having children more often than white people are having children, in your opinion?

474 Mocking Jay  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 7:13:12pm

re: #468 jamesfirecat

Lawerence is really unloading on that chair, well somebody has to...

re: #469 SpaceJesus

Lawrence Odonnell is very very pissed

I don't think I've ever seen him quite this angry. It's pretty awesome.

475 jaunte  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 7:13:16pm

Sanford Police chief bails on his job, Zimmerman's attorney bails on Lawrence O'Donnell. No one wants to show up on this case but the victim's family.

476 Shvaughn  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 7:13:32pm

re: #461 Killgore Trout

Fair enough. we'll all know more soon.

I'm eagerly awaiting the next breaking news link from Newsmax.

477 Lidane  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 7:13:42pm

re: #453 Killgore Trout

Wonderful. So basically, by your logic, Trayvon Martin deserved to die?

478 Gus  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 7:13:44pm
479 Varek Raith  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 7:14:12pm

If only Zimmerman were a member of OWS...
/Trollface

480 moderatelyradicalliberal  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 7:14:31pm

re: #453 Killgore Trout

I've seen nothing that indicates that police believe there's a contradiction between the eyewitness accounts and Zimmerman's story. The fact that they haven't charged him leads me to believe that the evidence available to police doesn't indicate that Zimmerman is guilty of a crime.

You actually believe that the Sanford Police are straight shooters on this. You actually believe that they have sound hard evidence that this kid's death was just? When there would have been no altercation, if there was one, if Zimmerman hadn't stalked him through the neighborhood? If Zimmerman had just kept following Trayvon in his car he would have watched the kid walk home to his dad's house.

Unbelievable.

481 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 7:14:34pm

re: #478 Gus

This is... meta-meta-meta...

482 Shvaughn  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 7:14:50pm

re: #479 Varek Raith

If only Zimmerman were a member of OWS...
/Trollface

That would be kind of awesome.

483 God of Binders with Women  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 7:14:54pm

"That was the cowardly liar, representing Mr. Zimmerman." -Lawrence

484 b_sharp  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 7:15:09pm

re: #470 Varek Raith

Yep.
I'm so confused!
XD

She's a babe. That's all there is to it.

485 Gus  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 7:15:15pm

re: #481 'M AFFN FUN

This is... meta-meta-meta...

Don't care. Screw him.

486 moderatelyradicalliberal  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 7:15:23pm

re: #465 Learned Mother of Zion

The same people who were pissed that the Guardian of Asgard in the "Thor" movie was Black?

//because dagnabbit Thor is a White Man's god!

Except if they had been paying attention to the book, this character is clearly described as being black.

487 Lidane  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 7:15:34pm

re: #479 Varek Raith

If only Zimmerman were a member of OWS...
/Trollface

Just imagine if Zimmerman had been both a member of OWS and boycotting Limbaugh.

488 Shvaughn  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 7:16:35pm

re: #487 Lidane

Just imagine if Zimmerman had been both a member of OWS and boycotting Limbaugh.

And a Planned Parenthood volunteer who also ran in the Komen Race for the Cure.

489 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 7:16:46pm

re: #217 Lidane

God damn people in this country are stupid:

Some 'Hunger Games' fans upset that character of Rue is black

She's described as black in the book. How is it a surprise if she's black in the movie? WTF.

That's moronic. Even from the little bit I read, I assumed the child was black. Everyone from her District is described as having dark skin. What were they envisioning?

Besides, this problem is easily solved. They can just refuse to cry for her. Enough people seem to have no problem doing that when black teenagers are killed in real life.

490 Lidane  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 7:16:49pm

re: #486 moderatelyradicalliberal

Except if they had been paying attention to the book, this character is clearly described as being black.

Not only that, but there have been cast photos and character posters circulating since last October. If you're shocked that there are any black people in The Hunger Games, you're totally clueless.

491 Gus  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 7:17:21pm

Zimmerman's lawyer left the building.

492 McSpiff  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 7:17:24pm

re: #487 Lidane

Just imagine if Zimmerman had been both a member of OWS and boycotting Limbaugh.

Shoot an unarmed black kid? Lets wait for the facts...

Boycott a racist? CIVIL RIGHTS!

Hmmm...

493 jamesfirecat  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 7:17:33pm

re: #487 Lidane

Just imagine if Zimmerman had been both a member of OWS and boycotting Limbaugh.

And a supported of Planned Parenthood who had started to boycott the Komen Foundation the "moonbat" trifecta!

494 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 7:17:44pm

re: #454 Gus

So basically what you're saying is the Trayvon should have been "an obedient negro" and listened to the self-appointed "neighborhood watch" vigilante and then he would have "gottens into trouble" with Zimmerman and getting shot in the end.

This whole exercise is sickening. In the end (sans coverup - good luck) there's still a dead boy who did nothing wrong. The yelling of the deniers or rationalists (ha) shows me more.

495 Digital Display  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 7:17:47pm

What about this law? I have offered little thoughts on this other than it helps promote vigilance...Details are sketchy so far because of brilliant police work or lack thereof.

This is an honest to God true Story.. I was in High School in my car with my girlfriend OK maybe just a girl I'm not swearing to God over that detail..Something happened and this older guy cut me off..Or more likely I cut him off.. But we flipped each other off and it was on.. He chased us around speeds exceeding 100mph and it was fun at first..We were laughing like crazy at first..Then it started to get real serious.. I knew this guy was crazy and no matter what he was not going to give up the chase without a confrontation. So I stopped and got out of the car..
He pulled a gun on me! I talked my way out of getting shot But..
The law from Florida would have protected that crazy man for standing his ground and shooting me....
Those are facts of the case Lizards..What say you Jury?

496 Mocking Jay  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 7:17:50pm

Huh. I did not know that Zim was wearing his gun openly. In plain sight. Following Trayvon.

497 Achilles Tang  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 7:17:56pm

re: #473 Shvaughn

Why are black children having children more often than white people are having children, in your opinion?

That's a good question, but I'll venture that it may be because it's all they have ever known, which is what I meant earlier by a self perpetuating cycle, although it is far too high in whites as well. It comes down to culture and social experience. How to break the cycle? We could start with funding Planned Parenthood better.

498 jaunte  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 7:18:07pm
499 Varek Raith  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 7:18:53pm

re: #496 Altar Boy of Darwinism

Huh. I did not know that Zim was wearing his gun openly. In plain sight. Following Trayvon.

How...
Menacing.

500 Gus  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 7:18:57pm

re: #496 Altar Boy of Darwinism

Huh. I did not know that Zim was wearing his gun openly. In plain sight. Following Trayvon.

Where's this at? This would bolster the case that Trayvon Martin obviously saw that his life was in danger. Which obviously it was.

501 b_sharp  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 7:19:06pm

re: #486 moderatelyradicalliberal

Except if they had been paying attention to the book, this character is clearly described as being black.

I damn near cried when she died. I did have a tear or six when Prim died.

502 moderatelyradicalliberal  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 7:19:24pm

re: #490 Lidane

Not only that, but there have been cast photos and character posters circulating since last October. If you're shocked that there are any black people in The Hunger Games, you're totally clueless.

I guess for some people, even a dystopian hell hole is OK so long as there are no black people in it.

503 EdDantes  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 7:19:26pm

re: #458 Altar Boy of Darwinism

If finding her atrractive makes me gay I'll gladly pick up my pass to the Blue Oyster Bar...

I'm still processing.

504 jamesfirecat  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 7:19:44pm

re: #496 Altar Boy of Darwinism

Huh. I did not know that Zim was wearing his gun openly. In plain sight. Following Trayvon.

Huh, if a man wearing a gun openly is following you, and you believe he'll shoot you, is it self defense if you try to start a fight with him before he can shoot you?

505 Shvaughn  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 7:19:48pm

re: #501 Bondo

I damn near cried when * died. I did have a tear or six when * died.

Can you not spoil the book/movie? Thanks.

506 jaunte  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 7:20:00pm
507 Gus  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 7:20:49pm

re: #506 jaunte

Someone is also leaking witness information.

508 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 7:20:59pm

re: #237 Mostly sane, most of the time.

Isn't the least popular one someone with mental illness?

Angel dust. My dad was a cop back when PCP was more popular. Cops dread that shit.

Paranoid schizophrenia is also not fun.

509 jaunte  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 7:21:03pm

re: #504 jamesfirecat

It's like the witch trials, where you have to drown to prove your innocence.

510 Sheila Broflovski  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 7:21:16pm

re: #501 Bondo

Fuck you. Some of us have not read the book/seen the movie.

511 Achilles Tang  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 7:21:30pm

re: #495 HoosierHoops

I saw somewhere that road rage drivers tend to have many stickers on their car. It doesn't matter what kind of sticker, just stickers. I suppose it is a territorial statement.

512 moderatelyradicalliberal  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 7:22:10pm

re: #501 Bondo

I damn near cried when she died. I did have a tear or six when Prim died.

Spoiler Alert!

513 Killgore Trout  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 7:22:21pm

re: #508 SanFranciscoZionist

Angel dust. My dad was a cop back when PCP was more popular. Cops dread that shit.

Paranoid schizophrenia is also not fun.

It also doesn't help that most of them are naked for some reason.

514 Mocking Jay  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 7:22:31pm

re: #500 Gus

Where's this at? This would bolster the case that Trayvon Martin obviously saw that his life was in danger. Which obviously it was.

Charles Blow just said it on O'Donnell. He says that info came right from the police.

515 Mocking Jay  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 7:23:53pm

re: #510 Learned Mother of Zion

Fuck you. Some of us have not read the book/seen the movie.

If that's the case then we can never talk about any book or movie because some may have not seen or read it.

516 b_sharp  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 7:23:59pm

re: #497 Blue Spot Vlamingii Tang

That's a good question, but I'll venture that it may be because it's all they have ever known, which is what I meant earlier by a self perpetuating cycle, although it is far too high in whites as well. It comes down to culture and social experience. How to break the cycle? We could start with funding Planned Parenthood better.

Larger families roughly correlates to lower education levels. Why are the education levels lower?

517 Mocking Jay  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 7:25:48pm

Besides, isn't the whole thing about a bunch of teens in a fight to the death?

518 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 7:26:08pm

re: #504 jamesfirecat

Huh, if a man wearing a gun openly is following you, and you believe he'll shoot you, is it self defense if you try to start a fight with him before he can shoot you?

Here's an interesting scenario: He sees the gun, flips out, takes off running. Zimmerman draws it and chases him down. Trayvon, already completely consumed with fear, turns at bay and decks Zimmerman, who winds up shooting Trayvon.

We could go on in endless speculation in this vein, but by and large, these are the kinds of things forensics really can't tell you. It's the police's job to puzzle it out.

519 b_sharp  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 7:26:12pm

re: #505 Shvaughn

Can you not spoil the book/movie? Thanks.

Gale turns gay, and Katnip marries Snow.

520 Sheila Broflovski  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 7:26:34pm

re: #515 Altar Boy of Darwinism

If that's the case then we can never talk about any book or movie because some may have not seen or read it.

You can talk about Titanic. The ship sank.

521 Varek Raith  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 7:26:57pm

re: #520 Learned Mother of Zion

You can talk about Titanic. The ship sank.

Son of a !!!!

522 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 7:27:07pm

re: #319 Daniel Ballard

Would you agree with these statements?

Nobody has the right to declare Trayvon the attacker. We know he was stalked. We can only wonder how he came to fight GZ.

Anyone wanting to call GZ a murderer has to answer to his injuries somehow.

I'm not asking for the right to call Zimmerman a murderer. I would just like him to be tried in a court of law, so that we as a society can decide if he is a murderer. And I'd especially love it if we could do that without the interference of this insane law that appears to heavily favor the cold-blooded and the carrying.

523 The Ghost of a Flea  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 7:27:27pm

re: #496 Altar Boy of Darwinism

Huh. I did not know that Zim was wearing his gun openly. In plain sight. Following Trayvon.

Hip holster, if I recall the mention somewhere in this discussion (or maybe a thread ago). I dunno how visible that would be.

From personal experience...few things scare me more than noticing that somebody near my personal space has a concealed weapon. You don't think "it's in the right kind of holster for a licensed carry, I must be okay."

That plus the guy is following you in his car?

I come back to whether or not he can be convicted, Zimmerman lacked the imagination to consider--or was too excited to think about--how his actions might be perceived. It's a fascinating exercise in privilege that he didn't consider how he acted in a manner that could read as an attempt to rob, or a kidnap, or rape.

524 Sheila Broflovski  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 7:27:37pm

I like the way they worked a Ford vs Chrysler commercial into the last 15 minutes of the Alcatraz season finale.

525 Interesting Times  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 7:27:46pm
526 Mocking Jay  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 7:27:53pm

re: #521 Varek Raith

Son of a !!!

It was his sled!

527 jaunte  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 7:28:06pm

re: #522 SanFranciscoZionist

It would be great if the Sanford PD would gather physical evidence at the scene of a shooting, too.

528 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 7:28:43pm

re: #525 Interesting Times

If this is not a joke, what's his account?

529 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 7:29:08pm

re: #525 Interesting Times

Ah, OK, I got it.

530 Achilles Tang  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 7:29:11pm

re: #516 Bondo

Larger families roughly correlates to lower education levels. Why are the education levels lower?

That sounds like a statistic begging for an argument. In the USA large families are, I believe, more common among those who can afford them. People like Bachmann or Santorum, for example.

This has no relevance to the simple fact that a poor one child family with a single poor, uneducated, parent is probably most likely to have a poor education.

531 Mocking Jay  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 7:29:24pm

re: #525 Interesting Times

Okay, that tweet made my night.

532 b_sharp  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 7:29:48pm

re: #517 Altar Boy of Darwinism

Besides, isn't the whole thing about a bunch of teens in a fight to the death?

24 enter, one exits, usually.

533 Kragar  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 7:29:56pm

re: #521 Varek Raith

Son of a !!!

ROSE WAS A SELFISH BITCH!

534 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 7:30:03pm

re: #495 HoosierHoops

My jury of one says, how was the weekend?

Heh.

535 Sheila Broflovski  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 7:30:28pm

re: #533 Kragar

ROSE WAS A SELFISH BITCH!

BRUCE WILLIS WAS DEAD THE WHOLE TIME!

536 Kragar  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 7:30:33pm

Battle Royale was better.

537 The Ghost of a Flea  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 7:30:55pm

re: #535 Learned Mother of Zion

BRUCE WILLIS WAS DEAD THE WHOLE TIME!

Also, Bruce Willis was the sled.

538 funky chicken  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 7:31:17pm

re: #391 Killgore Trout

Also see: Report: Police Say Evidence Indicates Trayvon Martin Attacked Zimmerman

after the creep stalked him in his car. kids today know about abduction rapes and are taught by their parents how to avoid them.

539 Lidane  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 7:31:22pm
540 Obdicut  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 7:31:26pm

re: #535 Learned Mother of Zion

BRUCE WILLIS WAS DEAD THE WHOLE TIME!

Zombies do Die Hard.

541 moderatelyradicalliberal  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 7:31:32pm

re: #516 Bondo

Larger families roughly correlates to lower education levels. Why are the education levels lower?

Just a guess, but for most of human history, there was no formal education. Not even in societies that had written language. Being educated or literate was not something that the vast majority of people would ever be. It wasn't necessary to make a living or make your way through life. You kept your children alive and put them to work or married them off. That's all you did. Maybe humans aren't very good at raising lots of kids and getting them through 12 years of education. My dad had 8 siblings only 3 went to college. I'm sure money was a factor. They have had various personal and financial successes and lack of success in their lives. Maybe some parts of modern life aren't part of our evolution and what we call an education is one of them.

542 jamesfirecat  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 7:32:03pm

re: #535 Learned Mother of Zion

BRUCE WILLIS WAS DEAD THE WHOLE TIME!

SOYLENT GREEN IS MADE OF PEOPLE!

543 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 7:32:05pm

re: #535 Learned Mother of Zion

BRUCE WILLIS WAS DEAD THE WHOLE TIME!

Snape kills Dumbledore.

/That's right, I went there

544 Obdicut  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 7:32:19pm

re: #538 funky chicken

Why on earth would you find a guy who outweighed you by a hundred pounds following you with a gun threatening?

/

545 jaunte  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 7:32:52pm
546 Obdicut  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 7:32:57pm

re: #543 thedopefishlives

Snape kills Dumbledore who is totally gay.

/That's right, I went there

Fixed that for you.

547 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 7:33:37pm

re: #546 Obdicut

Fixed that for you.

OUTRAGEOUS OUTRAGE!!!1!1one

548 moderatelyradicalliberal  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 7:34:05pm

re: #545 jaunte

Black people aren't allowed to talk about race doncha know? Especially POTUS.

549 Interesting Times  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 7:34:26pm
550 The Ghost of a Flea  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 7:34:33pm

re: #542 jamesfirecat

SOYLENT GREEN IS MADE OF PEOPLEBRUCE WILLIS!

...there's a reason he's dead.

551 funky chicken  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 7:35:56pm

I took an NRA class after I bought my first pistol a few years ago. It was called "handgun ownership 101" or something. One thing the instructor repeated over and over was that you never brandish a weapon unless you intend on discharging it. Period.

Zimmerman is an adult who stalked a kid in his car and then got out of the car with a weapon in his hand. End of story.

552 SpaceJesus  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 7:36:01pm

Soylent green is made of the love child between dead Bruce Willis and dead Dumbledore

553 Achilles Tang  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 7:36:15pm

Signing out. Thanks for all the fish.

554 Kragar  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 7:37:05pm

Rebecca Gayheart was the killer the whole time.

/and thats my obscure reference for the day

555 Digital Display  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 7:37:31pm

re: #534 Hoodies for Justice. T

My jury of one says, how was the weekend?

Heh.

Totally awesome...Lot's of fun..I really like her

556 Obdicut  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 7:38:43pm

In gentler news, Romney just got an expected but still welcome endorsement from

Image: tumblr_m0znziygj01qhq1pjo1_500.jpg

557 moderatelyradicalliberal  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 7:38:46pm

re: #551 funky chicken

I took an NRA class after I bought my first pistol a few years ago. It was called "handgun ownership 101" or something. One thing the instructor repeated over and over was that you never brandish a weapon unless you intend on discharging it. Period.

Zimmerman is an adult who stalked a kid in his car and then got out of the car with a weapon in his hand. End of story.

When you leave your care or home with a gun to confront someone, you have already decided how far you are willing to take things. If Zimmerman didn't want any trouble of any kind he would've stayed his ass in his damn car.

That's it for me.

558 b_sharp  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 7:38:55pm

re: #555 HoosierHoops

Totally awesome...Lot's of fun..I really like her

No shit?

559 jaunte  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 7:38:57pm


When in doubt, blame the Liberal Media.

560 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 7:39:42pm

re: #366 Daniel Ballard

Does anyone really believe Trayvon was the aggressor?
I just can't get myself to think so.

We'll never know for sure. My strongest guess is: Trayvon, frightened and tired of running,puffs himself up, and tells the guy to back off. Zimmerman, hyped up from the chase, and increasingly invested in somehow turning this into an arrest, says, 'the cops will be here in a minute', and advances on him. Trayvon, panicked, takes a swing at him, a fight begins, and Zimmerman pulls his weapon.

Less likely, but possible, depending on what Zimmerman's actual linkage to reality is: instead of telling him the cops are coming, Zimmerman draws his weapon, intending to keep him there. Trayvon, now in fear for his life, makes a lunge for the gun, and the fight starts like that.

In neither case would I call Trayvon the aggressor.

I'm haunted by the suggestion someone made that Trayvon might actually have called 911 himself. With the phone gone...the tapes would still be there. This feels paranoid, but I just have to wonder.

561 moderatelyradicalliberal  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 7:40:07pm

re: #554 Kragar

Rebecca Gayheart was the killer the whole time.

/and thats my obscure reference for the day

I see what you did there, but damn, her husband is hot. Maybe I should run over a kid while on my cell phone.

562 funky chicken  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 7:40:59pm

re: #544 Obdicut

Why on earth would you find a guy who outweighed you by a hundred pounds following you with a gun threatening?

/

Yeah, I'm just such a coward. And have tried to pass on healthy levels of ... concern for one's surroundings (rather than fear) ... to my teenagers. They ignore me for the most part, of course. But like I've written before, my son and some friends have had two instances of cars shadowing them while out walking around after dark, and they were pretty freaked out, and there were 3 or 4 of them together, and all play multiple sports. So one kid alone would have been pretty frightened, I'm sure.

563 Killgore Trout  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 7:41:20pm

re: #560 SanFranciscoZionist

I think that's fair speculation.

564 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 7:41:50pm

re: #387 Killgore Trout

Trayvon Martin Death: Police Say Witnesses Back Zimmerman's Story

We know that in at least one case, a witness was corrected by police about what she had heard. I'm really not going to accept much from this particular police department.

565 lawhawk  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 7:42:05pm

re: #543 thedopefishlives

Snape could have cut to the chase, used a time turned, and killed Tom Riddle before Dumbledore would ever have met him, preventing the entirety of the Death Eaters and all that he wrought - preserving the love of his life Lily and Harry would have gone on to have a mostly undistinguished career as a Quiddich player. /

566 jamesfirecat  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 7:42:58pm

re: #565 lawhawk

Snape could have cut to the chase, used a time turned, and killed Tom Riddle before Dumbledore would ever have met him, preventing the entirety of the Death Eaters and all that he wrought - preserving the love of his life Lily and Harry would have gone on to have a mostly undistinguished career as a Quiddich player. /

Time Turners only work up to six hours back.

Though I suppose this begs the question can you chain multiple time turners to get more than six hours back in time...

567 moderatelyradicalliberal  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 7:43:01pm

re: #560 SanFranciscoZionist

We'll never know for sure. My strongest guess is: Trayvon, frightened and tired of running,puffs himself up, and tells the guy to back off. Zimmerman, hyped up from the chase, and increasingly invested in somehow turning this into an arrest, says, 'the cops will be here in a minute', and advances on him. Trayvon, panicked, takes a swing at him, a fight begins, and Zimmerman pulls his weapon.

Less likely, but possible, depending on what Zimmerman's actual linkage to reality is: instead of telling him the cops are coming, Zimmerman draws his weapon, intending to keep him there. Trayvon, now in fear for his life, makes a lunge for the gun, and the fight starts like that.

In neither case would I call Trayvon the aggressor.

I'm haunted by the suggestion someone made that Trayvon might actually have called 911 himself. With the phone gone...the tapes would still be there. This feels paranoid, but I just have to wonder.

I saw a blurb on MSNBC while watching UP With Chris Hayes on Saturday that said that the FBI was analyzing a call the Trayvon made to 911 before his death, but I haven't seen anything about it since then.

568 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 7:43:30pm

re: #400 EdDantes

Darth, Shvaughn,
I haven't read the law but I was under the impression it was enacted to allow citizens to protect themselves against assault. I may be wrong.
In any case, no law should allow one person to hunt another.

Citizens are allowed everywhere to protect themselves against assault. I mean, in the U.S.

SYG, however, permits deadly force in situations where traditional law would say an obligation to retreat existed.

569 Obdicut  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 7:43:54pm

re: #567 moderatelyradicalliberal

I think this is just a confusion about his call with his girlfriend.

570 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 7:44:33pm

re: #409 darthstar

And that's where SYG ends. As soon as he pursued Trayvon, SYG became irrelevant. You can't claim self defense if you provoke someone.

Thing is, he did. And I'm not sure if the law was actually misapplied or not.

571 The Ghost of a Flea  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 7:45:10pm

re: #560 SanFranciscoZionist

I'm haunted by the suggestion someone made that Trayvon might actually have called 911 himself. With the phone gone...the tapes would still be there. This feels paranoid, but I just have to wonder.

I'm not prone to calling "conspiracy," but I have a hard time taking the Sanford PD's word that they've worked this case in good faith...which makes me doubt why missing information is missing.

572 moderatelyradicalliberal  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 7:45:16pm

re: #564 SanFranciscoZionist

We know that in at least one case, a witness was corrected by police about what she had heard. I'm really not going to accept much from this particular police department.

And unlike these other witnesses she had gone public. She and another woman have spoken out publicaly that the police "corrected" their account of what they heard and saw. These other witness are not public and kept anonymous in the police report.

573 Gus  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 7:45:20pm

My neck is feeling extra special today. Bleh. Hurts and feels funny.

574 lawhawk  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 7:46:29pm

re: #566 jamesfirecat

Assumes facts not in evidence.
[Link: harrypotter.wikia.com...]

Youtube Video
575 Obdicut  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 7:47:16pm

re: #573 Gus

My neck is feeling extra special today. Bleh. Hurts and feels funny.

[Link: backandneck.about.com...]

576 Kragar  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 7:47:24pm

The Sanford PD can not be considered a trusted source given their history.

577 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 7:47:24pm

re: #452 Shvaughn

In fact, they tell them not to, as I understand it.

Emphatically. Most neighborhood watch groups, you carry a gun, you're out.

The exception is a few groups in very rural places where animals might be an issue.

578 The Ghost of a Flea  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 7:50:40pm

From Mojo: this article, amongst other things (like confirming the murder weapon was seized), asks whether has GZ's gun license been suspended? The Brady Center says no.

579 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 7:52:18pm

re: #496 Altar Boy of Darwinism

Huh. I did not know that Zim was wearing his gun openly. In plain sight. Following Trayvon.

There's a strange white man with a gun following you. You walk, he follows. He gets in a vehicle, and keeps going. Then he gets out of the vehicle. You're alone, and all you've got is a can of iced tea, but you're almost a grown man, and you're scared as hell.

So what do you think is going on, and what do you do?

580 Gus  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 7:53:28pm

re: #578 The Ghost of a Flea

FromMoJo: the article, amongst other things (like confirming the murder weapon was seized), asks whether has GZ's gun license been suspended? The Brady Center says no.

Check your link.

581 The Ghost of a Flea  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 7:55:24pm

re: #580 Gus

Check your link.

Fixed, thanks.

582 goddamnedfrank  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 7:56:52pm

re: #496 Altar Boy of Darwinism

Huh. I did not know that Zim was wearing his gun openly. In plain sight. Following Trayvon.

According to the Sanford PD when he was detained the gun was taken from an in the waistband type holster. Zimmerman was also wearing a sweater, those two facts combined spell out concealed carry.

583 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 7:57:41pm

re: #551 funky chicken

I took an NRA class after I bought my first pistol a few years ago. It was called "handgun ownership 101" or something. One thing the instructor repeated over and over was that you never brandish a weapon unless you intend on discharging it. Period.

Zimmerman is an adult who stalked a kid in his car and then got out of the car with a weapon in his hand. End of story.

When my dad taught me to shoot, the basic rule was, you don't point the gun at anything you don't plan to shoot.

584 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 7:58:59pm

Hey all!

I think the person who did this should be worried.

How are you?

585 freetoken  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 8:00:29pm

Miscellaneous links open in some tabs in my Chrome windows... I wonder if my subconscious knows how they all work together:

In a stone box, a rare trace of crucifixion


New research suggests European Neandertals were almost extinct long before humans showed up

Tiny reader makes fast, cheap DNA sequencing feasible

That last might make a big impact in our society, someday, if personalized medicine based on our genome comes off.

586 Talking Point Detective  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 8:00:41pm

re: #409 darthstar

And that's where SYG ends. As soon as he pursued Trayvon, SYG became irrelevant. You can't claim self defense if you provoke someone.

From what I've seen, as long as he wasn't doing anything illegal, he can use a SYG defense.

He approaches Martin without doing anything illegal. Whether Martin does something threatening or not in response, Zimmerman feels threatened (or says he does) and shoots out of self-defense (or claims he shot out of self defense). Under SYG, he has a right to use deadly force, and as I understand it, he has no burden of proof to show that he acted in self-defense.

I read a lot of people claiming that he can't claim self-defense because he pursued Martin. I have yet to see or read anyone give a legal grounding for that opinion. Not saying it doesn't exist, I'm saying I haven't seen a legal basis - and that includes hearing the sponsor of the bill in an interview today on the radio.

587 Obdicut  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 8:01:11pm

re: #584 ggt

Image: cute-ferret.jpg

588 MittDoesNotCompute  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 8:01:32pm

re: #583 SanFranciscoZionist

When my dad taught me to shoot, the basic rule was, you don't point the gun at anything you don't plan to shoot.

And don't point and shoot a gun of any kind unless you're ready to kill something or someone.

589 Lidane  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 8:03:25pm

re: #450 moderatelyradicalliberal

Oil has been discovered in Kenya.

Thank goodness we have a president who was born there!

I call dibs!

[Link: www.balloon-juice.com...]

How soon before the birther idiots accuse Barack Obama of concealing the oil in Kenya to harm Real America?

590 Gus  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 8:03:32pm

re: #587 Obdicut

Image: cute-ferret.jpg

Image: 6869534690_1164908873_o.jpg

591 Gus  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 8:04:28pm

Wait! You have to see these.

Kiss, Cuddle, and Dedication from a Rescue Cat Mama

592 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 8:04:39pm

re: #587 Obdicut

Image: cute-ferret.jpg

I match your ferret and raise you one Pedro.

593 funky chicken  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 8:04:42pm

re: #579 SanFranciscoZionist

Kids know about stuff like this:

[Link: www.time.com...]

And sorry, but Zimmerman is an odd-looking dude. Yeah, I know Ted Bundy was handsome, etc and so on, but if you're a teenager out alone and some creepy fat white guy is stalking you in a car, you're not thinking things are going to end happily for you if you allow yourself to be subdued. Period.

594 Gus  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 8:05:49pm

re: #592 ggt

I match your ferret and raise you one Pedro.

It's funny how foxes almost have this tiny monkey face.

595 Obdicut  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 8:05:51pm

re: #590 Gus

Image: tumblr_lzvku8AAl31qhq1pjo1_500.png

If that guy follows you, don't worry about it, he's got a CCW so he must be responsible.

596 The Ghost of a Flea  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 8:05:52pm

re: #585 freetoken

Miscellaneous links open in some tabs in my Chrome windows... I wonder if my subconscious knows how they all work together:

In a stone box, a rare trace of crucifixion

New research suggests European Neandertals were almost extinct long before humans showed up

Tiny reader makes fast, cheap DNA sequencing feasible

That last might make a big impact in our society, someday, if personalized medicine based on our genome comes off.

DNA sequencing will prove that the Neanderthals were actually rendered extinct because the Romans executed them all.

597 Gus  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 8:06:24pm

Carpet cats are watching you.

598 Dancing along the light of day  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 8:06:34pm

re: #587 Obdicut

Image: cute-ferret.jpg

It's Ice in a bunny hat!

599 Kragar  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 8:07:10pm

re: #597 Gus

Carpet cats are watching you.

I controls the spice

600 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 8:07:29pm

So, I just came back from dog training and my neighbor kid who "looks like Trayvon" was in his garage.

I immediately got that feeling in the pit of my stomach. All the kids wear hoodies, they all walk around with their pants low . . . .

I really can't stand this.

601 Gus  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 8:07:44pm

re: #599 Kragar

I controls the spice

Link no work.

602 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 8:08:11pm

re: #593 funky chicken

Kids know about stuff like this:

[Link: www.time.com...]

And sorry, but Zimmerman is an odd-looking dude. Yeah, I know Ted Bundy was handsome, etc and so on, but if you're a teenager out alone and some creepy fat white guy is stalking you in a car, you're not thinking things are going to end happily for you if you allow yourself to be subdued. Period.

IMHO, Zimmerman definitely looks creepy.

603 MittDoesNotCompute  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 8:09:25pm

re: #586 Talking Point Detective

From what I've seen, as long as he wasn't doing anything illegal, he can use a SYG defense.

He approaches Martin without doing anything illegal. Whether Martin does something threatening or not in response, Zimmerman feels threatened (or says he does) and shoots out of self-defense (or claims he shot out of self defense). Under SYG, he has a right to use deadly force, and as I understand it, he has no burden of proof to show that he acted in self-defense.

I read a lot of people claiming that he can't claim self-defense because he pursued Martin. I have yet to see or read anyone give a legal grounding for that opinion. Not saying it doesn't exist, I'm saying I haven't seen a legal basis - and that includes hearing the sponsor of the bill in an interview today on the radio.

So Trayvon Martin gets written off as "unintended consequences" to a fucked-up law? Sorry, but given what we know about the whole sordid situation, that doesn't set right with me.

SYG laws like Florida's do little-to-nothing for public safety; all it seems to do is give a green light to trigger-happy Death Wish/Dirty Harry wannabes like Zimmerman to declare open season on people they don't care for.

604 CuriousLurker  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 8:09:55pm

re: #597 Gus

Carpet cats are watching you.

Hey Mike...

605 Gus  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 8:11:39pm

re: #604 CuriousLurker

Hey Mike...

Mas aqui, Milk and Cocoa, the Purrfect Match

606 CuriousLurker  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 8:12:31pm

re: #605 Gus

Mas aqui, Milk and Cocoa, the Purrfect Match

OMG, they're beauuuuutiful!

607 MittDoesNotCompute  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 8:12:47pm

re: #605 Gus

Mas aqui, Milk and Cocoa, the Purrfect Match

That's some cuteness overload right there!

608 Gus  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 8:13:11pm

Check out this link and tell me if the first image is to LGF.

Por favor.

609 MittDoesNotCompute  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 8:13:49pm

re: #608 Gus

Check out this link and tell me if the first image is to LGF.

Por favor.

Yes.

610 CuriousLurker  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 8:14:02pm

re: #608 Gus

Check out this link and tell me if the first image is to LGF.

Por favor.

Ha! Yes, it is.

611 Gus  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 8:14:47pm

re: #606 CuriousLurker

OMG, they're beauuutiful!

Aren't they though? Talk about bonding. Reminds me of those two "talk cat" that meow to each other and clean each other... and sleep together.

612 Obdicut  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 8:15:38pm

re: #611 Gus

One of my male cats tries to have sex with the other one pretty much every day, but he has no clue what he's dong and goes at it from the side, until the other cat gets bored and walks off.

And he's neutered.

613 Gus  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 8:15:45pm

re: #610 CuriousLurker

Ha! Yes, it is.

That's from one of my comments too. :)

614 Mocking Jay  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 8:15:52pm

re: #608 Gus

Yep.

615 CuriousLurker  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 8:16:12pm

re: #611 Gus

Aren't they though? Talk about bonding. Reminds me of those two "talk cat" that meow to each other and clean each other... and sleep together.

Yes, I've seen them. Too sweet. Mine are inseparable—they fight something awful at times, but they also look out for each other.

616 freetoken  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 8:16:34pm

re: #596 The Ghost of a Flea

DNA sequencing will prove that the Neanderthals were actually rendered extinct because the Romans executed them all.

Oh my, I think you might have stumbled upon something here.

617 Mocking Jay  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 8:18:22pm

Good to have Stewart back.

618 Talking Point Detective  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 8:18:37pm

re: #333 Daniel Ballard

There are a number of ways SYG could be ruled out or set aside on this case. But if you really want to use this case to end SYG, you have to argue to elevate it's standing above all of those objections.

Again I think SYG in public is a bad way to balance defensive rights and keeping aggressive people at bay. I really prefer what California does, and that is look at the level of force. It also carefully considers location, as in who approached who. Either of those legal standards would help in Sanford.

Baxley speaks to the "level of force" issue in this interview. He links it to SYG (and gives his reasoning why SYG doesn't apply to Zimmerman's defense) - which I don't buy, I think he's bullshitting to cover his ass.

619 Obdicut  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 8:19:44pm

Okay, I'm going to bed. I'll leave this nightmare behind.

Image: tumblr_lzxqmrV1Yf1qdqcy0o1_500.jpg

620 CuriousLurker  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 8:20:02pm

re: #613 Gus

This one's for KT

621 Varek Raith  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 8:20:49pm

re: #608 Gus

Check out this link and tell me if the first image is to LGF.

Por favor.

Lol.
Yep.

622 Talking Point Detective  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 8:20:59pm

re: #618 Talking Point Detective

Baxley speaks to the "level of force" issue in this interview. He links it to SYG (and gives his reasoning why SYG doesn't apply to Zimmerman's defense) - which I don't buy, I think he's bullshitting to cover his ass.

Sorry:

[Link: www.npr.org...]

623 Gus  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 8:21:46pm

Let the record be noted that I never did once slander George Zimmerman. I never inquired about his family.

624 The Ghost of a Flea  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 8:22:06pm

re: #619 Obdicut

Okay, I'm going to bed. I'll leave this nightmare behind.

Image: tumblr_lzxqmrV1Yf1qdqcy0o1_500.jpg

Evidence of the Gilded Age Furry outbreak: most materials were destroyed by order of Pres Harding.

Expect the black helicopters soon.

625 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 8:22:20pm

G.L.O.R.I.A

626 BryanS  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 8:22:53pm

re: #586 Talking Point Detective

From what I've seen, as long as he wasn't doing anything illegal, he can use a SYG defense.

He approaches Martin without doing anything illegal. Whether Martin does something threatening or not in response, Zimmerman feels threatened (or says he does) and shoots out of self-defense (or claims he shot out of self defense). Under SYG, he has a right to use deadly force, and as I understand it, he has no burden of proof to show that he acted in self-defense.

I read a lot of people claiming that he can't claim self-defense because he pursued Martin. I have yet to see or read anyone give a legal grounding for that opinion. Not saying it doesn't exist, I'm saying I haven't seen a legal basis - and that includes hearing the sponsor of the bill in an interview today on the radio.

I've seen reports now that Zimmerman had a broken nose and injury to the back of his head after his altercation. If that is accurate, presumably that would be a reason he wasn't originally arrested. Does 'Stand Your Ground' cover pursuing someone you were not originally threatened by? If it does, than it's nothing more than legalized vigilantism. If it doesn't cover that, the 911 tape certainly calls for arresting Zimmerman for creating the situation that lead to the altercation, shooting, and death.

627 Gus  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 8:23:01pm

re: #625 ggt

G.L.O.R.I.A

Smith?

628 Digital Display  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 8:24:26pm

re: #615 CuriousLurker

Yes, I've seen them. Too sweet. Mine are inseparable—they fight something awful at times, but they also look out for each other.

Winston is the cutest dog in the world.. Every morning he crawls up in the covers and just peeks his head out and makes me laugh..Now knowing I'm awake he hops on my chest in excitement and doggie joy..OK Winston..I'm getting up now.. He follows me around step for step all morning...

629 Varek Raith  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 8:25:12pm

Obama Administration To Establish Strong Carbon Pollution Limits For New Power Plants

The proposed rule — years in the making and approved by the White House after months of review — will require any new power plant to emit no more than 1,000 pounds of carbon dioxide per megawatt of electricity produced. The average U.S. natural gas plant, which emits between 800 and 850 pounds of CO2 per megawatt, meets that standard; coal plants emit an average of 1,768 pounds of carbon dioxide per megawatt.

630 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 8:25:30pm

re: #595 Obdicut

Image: tumblr_lzvku8AAl31qhq1pjo1_500.png

If that guy follows you, don't worry about it, he's got a CCW so he must be responsible.

Who?

631 Varek Raith  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 8:25:57pm

re: #630 Hoodies for Justice. T

Who?

Look out the window...

632 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 8:26:08pm

re: #630 Hoodies for Justice. T

Who?

That is one awesome photo bomb.

633 CuriousLurker  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 8:26:37pm

re: #628 HoosierHoops

Winston is the cutest dog in the world.. Every morning he crawls up in the covers and just peeks his head out and makes me laugh..Now knowing I'm awake he hops on my chest in excitement and doggie joy..OK Winston..I'm getting up now.. He follows me around step for step all morning...

Awww. Sometimes I miss having a dog.

634 The Ghost of a Flea  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 8:27:15pm

re: #626 BryanS

I've seen reports now that Zimmerman had a broken nose and injury to the back of his head after his altercation. If that is accurate, presumably that would be a reason he wasn't originally arrested. Does 'Stand Your Ground' cover pursuing someone you were not originally threatened by? If it does, than it's nothing more than legalized vigilantism. If it doesn't cover that, the 911 tape certainly calls for arresting Zimmerman for creating the situation that lead to the altercation, shooting, and death.

The Florida wording really doesn't provide for the specific situation of chasing someone...but there's a section at the end that allows an assailtant (initiator of violence/struggle) to apply SYG to a killing. From Wikipedia's subentry on the Florida SYG:

2011 Florida Statutes CHAPTER 776 JUSTIFIABLE USE OF FORCE

776.041 Use of force by aggressor. —The justification described in the preceding sections of this chapter is not available to a person who:

(1) Is attempting to commit, committing, or escaping after the commission of, a forcible felony; or

(2) Initially provokes the use of force against himself or herself, unless:

(a) Such force is so great that the person reasonably believes that he or she is in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm and that he or she has exhausted every reasonable means to escape such danger other than the use of force which is likely to cause death or great bodily harm to the assailant; or
(b) In good faith, the person withdraws from physical contact with the assailant and indicates clearly to the assailant that he or she desires to withdraw and terminate the use of force, but the assailant continues or resumes the use of force.

635 Mocking Jay  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 8:27:18pm

re: #630 Hoodies for Justice. T

Who?

Heh. You missed it? Look at the guy in the car on the right.

636 Gus  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 8:28:04pm

re: #625 ggt

G.L.O.R.I.A

She is like a statue. Which I mean in a good way.

637 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 8:29:39pm

re: #619 Obdicut

Okay, I'm going to bed. I'll leave this nightmare behind.

Image: tumblr_lzxqmrV1Yf1qdqcy0o1_500.jpg

WHY?

638 Talking Point Detective  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 8:30:48pm

re: #626 BryanS

I've seen reports now that Zimmerman had a broken nose and injury to the back of his head after his altercation. If that is accurate, presumably that would be a reason he wasn't originally arrested. Does 'Stand Your Ground' cover pursuing someone you were not originally threatened by? If it does, than it's nothing more than legalized vigilantism. If it doesn't cover that, the 911 tape certainly calls for arresting Zimmerman for creating the situation that lead to the altercation, shooting, and death.

It's entirely unclear. As far as I can tell, (and Baxley, who wrote the law, speaks to this in the interview I linked above) the only thing that negates Zimmerna's ability to use SYG is if he was doing something illegal.

Now Baxley says that there is "proportionality of force" in the law - but then he contradicts himself by saying that the law says that you can "meet force with force" - which in no way codifies anything about proportionality. His argument is incoherent and there is a Mac Truck sized hole in his argument.

639 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 8:31:12pm

re: #627 Gus

Smith?

WATCH . THE . VIDEO

G.L.O.R.I.A

640 Gus  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 8:31:36pm

re: #639 ggt

WATCH . THE . VIDEO

G.L.O.R.I.A

Done.

641 Kragar  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 8:31:44pm

re: #619 Obdicut

Okay, I'm going to bed. I'll leave this nightmare behind.

Image: tumblr_lzxqmrV1Yf1qdqcy0o1_500.jpg

So thats where Bioshock came from.

642 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 8:32:06pm

re: #640 Gus

Done.

SHARE . THE . VIDEO!

643 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 8:32:28pm

re: #619 Obdicut

Okay, I'm going to bed. I'll leave this nightmare behind.

Image: tumblr_lzxqmrV1Yf1qdqcy0o1_500.jpg

Ah, the fun old days.

644 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 8:32:58pm

Black cats and ominous characters.

645 Gus  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 8:33:20pm

re: #639 ggt

WATCH . THE . VIDEO

G.L.O.R.I.A

Interesting theory, which I assume is policy now, how raising the salary, making them more equitable, adding money to average citizenry. To the tune of billions. A good idea I might add. She's an excellent communicator.

646 Talking Point Detective  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 8:33:24pm

re: #626 BryanS

I've seen reports now that Zimmerman had a broken nose and injury to the back of his head after his altercation. If that is accurate, presumably that would be a reason he wasn't originally arrested. Does 'Stand Your Ground' cover pursuing someone you were not originally threatened by? If it does, than it's nothing more than legalized vigilantism. If it doesn't cover that, the 911 tape certainly calls for arresting Zimmerman for creating the situation that lead to the altercation, shooting, and death.

This law was opposed by law enforcement because they said that it essentially equaled legalized vigilantism.

Again, the Timoney editorial:

[Link: www.nytimes.com...]

647 BryanS  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 8:33:44pm

re: #629 Varek Raith

Obama Administration To Establish Strong Carbon Pollution Limits For New Power Plants

A few observations. First, I assume the limit should be something like Megawatt-hours or some unit of energy, not simply Megawatts. That misuse of units alone make me wonder whether the author understands the basics of science (in this case, looks to be quoted originally from a Washington Post article).

Now that I'm off my soap box, from a policy standpoint, how effective is this when done by the executive branch rule making of the EPA. That could all be undone a single presidential election.

648 palomino  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 8:34:15pm

re: #44 Killgore Trout

I have no idea what who was where and what the relevant laws are about that sort of thing. I'll wait until the hype dies down.

Yeah, kind of like your evenhanded approach to OWS, where you, with such great integrity and love of the Truth, withheld judgment until the facts were all in. Wow, you're such an inspiration.

649 Gus  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 8:35:12pm

re: #642 ggt

SHARE . THE . VIDEO!

650 Gus  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 8:35:34pm

Missing Persons - Words

Youtube Video
651 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 8:37:06pm

re: #635 Altar Boy of Darwinism

Heh. You missed it? Look at the guy in the car on the right.

Totally missed it! Thanks for the enlightening!

652 erik_t  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 8:37:36pm

re: #647 BryanS

A few observations. First, I assume the limit should be something like Megawatt-hours or some unit of energy, not simply Megawatts. That misuse of units alone make me wonder whether the author understands the basics of science (in this case, looks to be quoted originally from a Washington Post article).

Now that I'm off my soap box, from a policy standpoint, how effective is this when done by the executive branch rule making of the EPA. That could all be undone a single presidential election.

Implied-hours on units of energy (especially in the commercial/industrial power industry) seems to be moderately common, rage-y though it makes me. It merits an eyebrow raise, but not a wholesale rejection of the article as it would with most other fields.

IMHO, YMMV, etc.

653 freetoken  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 8:38:01pm

I'm coming to the conclusion that all this magical balance fairy stuff we see (even of late around here) is nothing more than a watered down version of the "postmodern" practice of words and rhetoric having indefinite meaning and the equivocating of all ideas.

An editorial just popped up on the NYT website:


Citing Chapter and Verse: Which Scripture Is the Right One?

It's right in line with the trend. In this case equivocating certain aspects of science and scientists with religion, using Dawkins (who always seems to be a favorite target for these kind of things) and a recent blurb of his to somehow reach some deeper understanding of it all. The writer is well credentialed to be sure, but it all smacks of that same academia I-need-to-write-something flavor.

654 Talking Point Detective  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 8:38:31pm

re: #603 talon_262

So Trayvon Martin gets written off as "unintended consequences" to a fucked-up law? Sorry, but given what we know about the whole sordid situation, that doesn't set right with me.

SYG laws like Florida's do little-to-nothing for public safety; all it seems to do is give a green light to trigger-happy Death Wish/Dirty Harry wannabes like Zimmerman to declare open season on people they don't care for.

It's possible that he can still get nailed on a hate crime offense. It's also possible that given the CYA needs of the supporters of this law, they'll support eliminating it's usage in this case because it has gotten so much publicity. Efforts are already being made to say that Zimmerman pursuing Martin eliminates the application of this law in this case - but again, from what I've seen that is being done for political purposes. From what I've seen, there isn't anything in the law itself that means it can't be applied in this case - despite the attempts of supporters of the law to argue otherwise.

655 palomino  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 8:39:21pm

re: #74 Killgore Trout

I'm extra cautious about this one because the stakes are pretty high. The media and blog coverage has lots of half truths, competing claims, conspiracy theories, inaccurate or misleading information. A lot of people just want Zimmerman's hide regardless of the truth. Too much hype and if the mob doesn't get Zimmerman (for whatever reason) things could get ugly. I don't want to be part of the angry mob.

Those things are your typical modus operandi when dealing with OWS.

I'm sure the irony is far too obvious for you to even notice...severe cognitive dissonance would set in, if it hasn't already.

656 BryanS  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 8:39:38pm

re: #634 The Ghost of a Flea

Thanx for the link/info. It really does seem that the law could let Zimmerman walk. Zimmerman goes full vigilante after a teenager. The teenage kid reasonably fears for his life when someone twice his size is following him, gets out of his vehicle, and confronts him. Because the kid fought a good fight, Zimmerman gets to kill him? That sounds f'd up.

657 freetoken  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 8:41:06pm

And, it's all too often the "philosophers" who seem to be leading this charge. Or, another one of the "humanities" specialties.

I correlate this with the threat, or actuated, closure of humanities departments in smaller colleges. Many are being questioned about their existence, and now we are seeing that corner of academia starting to squeal as the money starts being turned off.

Our politicians always rave about "STEM", and the humanities guys are feeling a bit left out, I think.

658 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 8:42:05pm

re: #648 palomino

Yeah, kind of like your evenhanded approach to OWS, where you, with such great integrity and love of the Truth, withheld judgment until the facts were all in. Wow, you're such an inspiration.

It was interesting for a moment, but rather than the stand behind your comment guy, KT bailed. No worries, he'll be back!

659 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 8:42:13pm

FND (Fox news Drone) on my fb today with all the talking points we hashed out 2 days ago here.

Conservatives --yes, a little behind as always.

660 engineer cat  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 8:42:26pm

next time republicans

accuse you of Class Warfare

just tell them you're exercising your rights

under the Stand Your Ground law

661 BryanS  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 8:44:15pm

re: #654 Talking Point Detective

It's possible that he can still get nailed on a hate crime offense. It's also possible that given the CYA needs of the supporters of this law, they'll support eliminating it's usage in this case because it has gotten so much publicity. Efforts are already being made to say that Zimmerman pursuing Martin eliminates the application of this law in this case - but again, from what I've seen that is being done for political purposes. From what I've seen, there isn't anything in the law itself that means it can't be applied in this case - despite the attempts of supporters of the law to argue otherwise.

Despite the name of that class of laws, hate is not itself a crime. It's only an enhancer penalty/charge to an underlying crime. Zimmerman would have to be convicted of an underlying crime for a hate crime enhancer to even be considered. No lawyer here, but hate couldn't be protected as free speech if hate were a crime.

662 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 8:44:21pm

re: #649 Gus

[Embedded content]

YOU . ARE . AWESOME . !

663 Gus  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 8:44:32pm

Image: vougth_a7_corsair_ii__va_113__by_emigepa-d4dp1i9.jpg

A-7 Porn

664 Gus  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 8:45:17pm

re: #662 ggt

YOU . ARE . AWESOME . !

Thanks! ;]

665 Kragar  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 8:46:32pm

re: #663 Gus

Image: vougth_a7_corsair_ii__va_113__by_emigepa-d4dp1i9.jpg

A-7 Porn

Youtube Video
666 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 8:46:44pm

re: #653 freetoken

I'm coming to the conclusion that all this magical balance fairy stuff we see (even of late around here) is nothing more than a watered down version of the "postmodern" practice of words and rhetoric having indefinite meaning and the equivocating of all ideas.

An editorial just popped up on the NYT website:

Citing Chapter and Verse: Which Scripture Is the Right One?

I read about 10 paragraphs of your link, do I have to read any more?

667 SpaceJesus  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 8:46:46pm

HAIL SATAN

668 SpaceJesus  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 8:46:57pm

fuck

669 Talking Point Detective  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 8:48:21pm

re: #661 BryanS

Despite the name of that class of laws, hate is not itself a crime. It's only an enhancer penalty/charge to an underlying crime. Zimmerman would have to be convicted of an underlying crime for a hate crime enhancer to even be considered. No lawyer here, but hate couldn't be protected as free speech if hate were a crime.

My understanding is that if it could be proven that he killed Martin due to racist motivation, the Feds could prosecute even if he were to get off through application of SYG. But maybe you're right in that there would need to be a lower-level conviction first. Maybe someone more lawyer-like can clear that up.

670 Kragar  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 8:48:22pm

re: #667 SpaceJesus

HAIL SATAN

Image: dio-horns2.jpg

671 freetoken  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 8:48:47pm

re: #666 ggt

I know, it's a lot of words that don't amount to much. The writer could have said it all in a couple of sentences, short and sweet, but I suspect the NYT pays him by the word.

672 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 8:49:13pm

re: #671 freetoken

I know, it's a lot of words that don't amount to much. The writer could have said it all in a couple of sentences, short and sweet, but I suspect the NYT pays him by the word.

Like the Dumas family and Dickens?

673 palomino  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 8:49:35pm

re: #658 Hoodies for Justice. T

It was interesting for a moment, but rather than the stand behind your comment guy, KT bailed. No worries, he'll be back!

He's essentially having a slow motion meltdown. It was kinda interesting at first, the way all freak shows and train wrecks are. Now he's just another boring crank.

674 freetoken  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 8:49:53pm

re: #672 ggt

I wished I got paid by the word. I could write 10,000 a day. I'd be rich.

675 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 8:50:19pm

re: #671 freetoken

I know, it's a lot of words that don't amount to much. The writer could have said it all in a couple of sentences, short and sweet, but I suspect the NYT pays him by the word.

There was a really good article a while back that addressed the "equal time = equal validity" concept. Now, I wonder if I paged it.

676 Gus  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 8:51:49pm

Check the laser manifold fences tonight. We might be getting visitors from sector 9.

677 BryanS  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 8:52:35pm

re: #669 Talking Point Detective

My understanding is that if it could be proven that he killed Martin due to racist motivation, the Feds could prosecute even if he were to get off through application of SYG. But maybe you're right in that there would need to be a lower-level conviction first. Maybe someone more lawyer-like can clear that up.

I think that's where forum shopping happens. If they can find a federal crime when there is not a crime under state law, I would imagine they could apply appropriate federal statutes.

678 Gus  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 8:53:09pm

We'll need some cigars. Frankfurters. And some whiskey. Plenty of whiskey. Oh, and ammo too. Get the CO on the line corporal-captain.

679 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 8:53:33pm

Did find this in the pages from last December.

Condi Rice --US will never be race-blind.

I'd be happy with color-blind justice.

680 erik_t  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 8:54:41pm

re: #663 Gus

Image: vougth_a7_corsair_ii__va_113__by_emigepa-d4dp1i9.jpg

A-7 Porn

Beads.
Bees?
Beads.
Beads!?
Beads.

681 The Ghost of a Flea  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 8:55:18pm

re: #670 Kragar

Image: dio-horns2.jpg

People don't realize that gesture traditionally wards off the devil? Perdition FAIL.

682 Lidane  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 8:59:13pm

re: #681 The Ghost of a Flea

People don't realize that gesture traditionally wards off the devil? Perdition FAIL.

They also don't realize that the inverted cross is actually a Christian symbol.

683 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 9:00:20pm

ah!

Argument to Moderation:

Argument to moderation (Latin: argumentum ad temperantiam, also known as middle ground, false compromise, gray fallacy and the golden mean fallacy) is a logical fallacy which asserts that given two positions there exists a compromise between them which must be correct.

An individual demonstrating the false compromise fallacy implies that the positions being considered represent extremes of a continuum of opinions, and that such extremes are always wrong, and the middle ground is always correct.[1] This is not always the case. Sometimes only X or Y is acceptable, with no middle ground possible. Additionally, the middle ground fallacy allows any position to be invalidated, even those that have been reached by previous applications of the same method; all one must do is present yet another, radically opposed position, and the middle-ground compromise will be forced closer to that position. In politics, this is part of the basis behind Overton Window Theory.

The gray fallacy, as opposed to the gray wizard.

Not exactly the same as the equivalence of intelligent and stupid that we see in the media. I think there is another latin named fallacy that applies. I have no idea how to access/find it in my little gray cells or the internet.

684 palomino  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 9:01:25pm

Ask yourself why the far right is defending Zimmerman and doubling down on Trayvon being a thug. A much better strategy, from their perspective, would be calling Zimmerman a rogue and dismissing the whole incident as "an isolated incident" that doesn't reflect any ongoing racial problems.

Unfortunately, a la Dan Riehl, a lot of conservative whites see young urban black men as inherently criminal, and are frankly happy to see one of them taken out, even if his only weapon was a bag of Skittles.

685 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 9:01:55pm

Wiki Links are a wonderful thing:

False Balance:

Today, false balance is used to describe a perceived or real media bias, where journalists present an issue as being more balanced between opposing viewpoints than the evidence actually supports. Journalists may present evidence and arguments out of proportion to the actual evidence for each side, or may even actually suppress information which would establish one side's claims as baseless.
An example of issues sometimes handled with false balance are pseudoscience, as when a national nightly news program in the United States gave coverage to a backyard inventor who claimed to have invented a perpetual motion machine[citation needed]; the program presented scientific authorities to explain why such a device was impossible, but since they gave equal time to the claims of the inventor, it may have created a false impression with audiences that his claims were credible, although they were not. “Objective coverage” of lynching in the 1890s by US journalists failed, "to recognize a truth, that African-Americans were being terrorized across the nation."[5]
False balance is often found in political reports,[6][7][8] company press releases and general information from organisations with special interest groups in promoting their respective agendas.
Other recent examples of false balance in reporting on science issues include the hot topics of man-made vs. natural climate change, the relation between Thiomersal and autism[9] and evolution vs. intelligent design.[10] For instance, although the scientific community overwhelmingly attributes a component of climate change of the last 50–100 years, particularly global warming, to the effects of the industrial revolution,[11][12][13][14][15][16][17][18][19][20][21][22][23][24] there are a handful[25][26][27] of scientists who dispute this conclusion. Giving equal voice to scientists on both sides makes it seem like there is a hearty debate within the scientific community, even though there is actually an overwhelming consensus.

686 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 9:03:40pm

There is also

Okrent's Law:

It states: "The pursuit of balance can create imbalance because sometimes something is true", referring to the phenomenon of the press providing legitimacy to fringe or minority viewpoints in an effort to appear even-handed.[citation needed]

687 erik_t  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 9:05:04pm

re: #686 ggt

There is also

Okrent's Law:

The [citation needed] is depressingly apropos.

688 Gus  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 9:05:34pm

This is how I feel.

689 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 9:06:32pm

I'm going to wait for all the facts to come in before passing judgement on whether Obama was born in Kenya to black panthers

690 Gus  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 9:08:22pm

re: #689 windupbird is in the gravity well

I'm going to wait for all the facts to come in before passing judgement on whether Obama was born in Kenya to black panthers

It would be the right thing to do.

//

691 Lidane  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 9:10:19pm

re: #684 palomino

Ask yourself why the far right is defending Zimmerman and doubling down on Trayvon being a thug.

It's the same reason why some idiots are upset that there are black characters in The Hunger Games.

692 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 9:11:03pm

re: #684 palomino

Ask yourself why the far right is defending Zimmerman and doubling down on Trayvon being a thug. A much better strategy, from their perspective, would be calling Zimmerman a rogue and dismissing the whole incident as "an isolated incident" that doesn't reflect any ongoing racial problems.

Unfortunately, a la Dan Riehl, a lot of conservative whites see young urban black men as inherently criminal, and are frankly happy to see one of them taken out, even if his only weapon was a bag of Skittles.

Because gun laws in this country were created to control minorities. So, in their minds, Zimmerman was doing exactly what he was supossed to be doing as an upstanding patriot. Martin should not have been "walking while a young black man"

Florida has a particular history for this as cited and often used by the same 2nd Amendment Advocates who are standing up for Zimmerman. The hypocrisy is astounding.

"There are other examples of remarkable honesty from the state supreme courts on this subject, of which the finest is probably Florida Supreme Court Justice Buford's concurring opinion in Watson v. Stone (1941), in which a conviction for carrying a handgun without a permit was overturned, because the handgun was in the glove compartment of a car:

I know something of the history of this legislation. The original Act of 1893 was passed when there was a great influx of negro laborers in this State drawn here for the purpose of working in turpentine and lumber camps. The same condition existed when the Act was amended in 1901 and the Act was passed for the purpose of disarming the negro laborers and to thereby reduce the unlawful homicides that were prevalent in turpentine and saw-mill camps and to give the white citizens in sparsely settled areas a better feeling of security. The statute was never intended to be applied to the white population and in practice has never been so applied. [35]"

I just checked Clayon Cramer's blog and he doesn't seem to be a Zimmerman groupie. So, I won't include him in the sweeping hypocrisy statement.

693 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 9:12:23pm

re: #676 Gus

Check the laser manifold fences tonight. We might be getting visitors from sector 9.

Should I be worried about sector 9?

I can't even remember what it is.

694 Gus  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 9:13:32pm

I don't know about anyone else here but all this shit that's been going down is really freaking weird. This country has gone backwards. At least half of the country is some other freaking time zone and I'm not in it. And in this case you have to move your clocks back 50 years to be on their same level.

695 Lidane  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 9:15:05pm

re: #694 Gus

I don't know about anyone else here but all this shit that's been going down is really freaking weird. This country has gone backwards.

I always knew that the first minority POTUS would make some folks flip their shit, but I can honestly say I never expected anything close to the level of total ignorance and fail we've seen since 2008.

696 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 9:15:16pm

re: #694 Gus

I don't know about anyone else here but all this shit that's been going down is really freaking weird. This country has gone backwards. At least half of the country is some other freaking time zone and I'm not in it. And in this case you have to move your clocks back 50 years to be on their same level.

I think I posted earlier that I figured it out.

Our universe shifted with that last Tsumani. We are now overlapping another quantum but parallel universe. All the insanity we see are really glimpses into that other reality.

It works for me.

697 palomino  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 9:15:32pm

re: #691 Lidane

It's the same reason why some idiots are upset that there are black characters in The Hunger Games.

Given our long history of police brutality, vigilantism, and racism in America, how does one come to the conclusion that race is not part of the context of this story?

Furthermore, the "those assholes always get away" and "fucking coons" comments by Zimmerman provide even more reason to think race just might have been an issue.

Things are seriously fucked up on the right, when a phony neighborhood watch guy is the hero, and a black unarmed teen is the villain.

698 Gus  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 9:17:36pm

re: #696 ggt

I think I posted earlier that I figured it out.

Our universe shifted with that last Tsumani. We are now overlapping another quantum but parallel universe. All the insanity we see are really glimpses into that other reality.

It works for me.

My theory is that Osama bin Laden actually succeeded in creating most of these monstrosities. In a way, he won. This is a bi-product of anti-Muslimists, anti-multiculturalism, it mainstreamed the tone of hatred.

699 Gus  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 9:18:10pm

Because it's the same people. The same people that brought us to war in Iraq are the same ones pushing this hatred.

700 Lidane  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 9:19:17pm

re: #697 palomino

Things are seriously fucked up on the right, when a phony neighborhood watch guy is the hero, and a black unarmed teen is the villain.

And things are seriously fucked up in general when people get upset after finding out that a sympathetic and/or popular character in a popular book series happens to be black. WTF? Black people can't be sympathetic or popular?

701 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 9:20:05pm

re: #699 Gus

Because it's the same people. The same people that brought us to war in Iraq are the same ones pushing this hatred.

They thrive on the Drama of the Cold War --which has now morphed into the War on Terror and The War on Drugs and the very lucrative answer is: GOD.

They take Amurkan Express, Visa, Mastercard and Paypal.

702 palomino  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 9:20:25pm

re: #695 Lidane

I always knew that the first minority POTUS would make some folks flip their shit, but I can honestly say I never expected anything close to the level of total ignorance and fail we've seen since 2008.

I made the exact same mistake when it comes to expectations of the right's response to an Obama presidency. I figured the fever pitch would settle after the election was over, but the opposite resulted. I guess a lot of reactionaries were in denial leading up to the 2008 election...they just couldn't even bring themselves to read a poll or accept that Obama might beat the white guy. When it happened, they went into hysterics and still haven't calmed down.

703 blueraven  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 9:22:55pm

re: #63 Killgore Troutre: #440 Killgore Trout

I think the core issue is that nothing in the eyewitness accounts have contradicted Zimmerman;s claims. I can easily see him fudging the truth or outright lying in a situation like this but at the time he talks to police he's under stress and hasn't had a lot of time to think. Cops are usually pretty good at sniffing these things out. His testimony seems to match the witnesses at this point.

Oh goody...we dont need courts, judges or juries anymore

704 Gus  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 9:23:08pm

re: #701 ggt

They thrive on the Drama of the Cold War --which has now morphed into the War on Terror and The War on Drugs and the very lucrative answer is: GOD.

They take Amurkan Express, Visa, Mastercard and Paypal.

They want to hurt. They want to kill. They have taste of blood in their rhetoric. It's all about their death cult. Claiming to be pro-life one second and demanding a sunrise hanging the next. Or worse. Death comes easy to them because they figure it's not a big loss because "hey there's always the afterlife." But there isn't one. This isn't a game but they treat it as such. They are a cult of death and injury. A state of constant war.

705 ozbloke  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 9:23:10pm

re: #694 Gus

I don't know about anyone else here but all this shit that's been going down is really freaking weird. This country has gone backwards. At least half of the country is some other freaking time zone and I'm not in it. And in this case you have to move your clocks back 50 years to be on their same level.

That's probably ok, it has to do with the circumference of the earth, and the position of the sun.

706 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 9:32:57pm

re: #705 ozbloke

That's probably ok, it has to do with the circumference of the earth, and the position of the sun.

You may have something there!

707 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 9:35:30pm

File under
things Republican's have forgotten

from my fb

708 ozbloke  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 9:36:18pm

re: #706 ggt

You may have something there!

Did I finally make a funny, that Americans understand?

Our humour (Australia) often seems to be missed by Americans.
Alternatively, we are not very funny...

709 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 9:39:01pm

re: #708 ozbloke

Did I finally make a funny, that Americans understand?

Our humour (Australia) often seems to be missed by Americans.
Alternatively, we are not very funny...

un, actually, I thought you were pointing out the obvious--which I missed.

:(

710 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 9:39:46pm

re: #684 palomino

Ask yourself why the far right is defending Zimmerman and doubling down on Trayvon being a thug. A much better strategy, from their perspective, would be calling Zimmerman a rogue and dismissing the whole incident as "an isolated incident" that doesn't reflect any ongoing racial problems.

Unfortunately, a la Dan Riehl, a lot of conservative whites see young urban black men as inherently criminal, and are frankly happy to see one of them taken out, even if his only weapon was a bag of Skittles.

My theory is this death hit the heart of everyAnd peeps who have tinge or full on racism are startled. And it's flight or fight, they cannot admit their heart, so it's a fight.

I'm so sad.

711 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 9:42:43pm

Time for me to try to work thru more Thomas Merton.

Enjoy the Artic!

712 ozbloke  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 9:43:03pm

re: #709 ggt

un, actually, I thought you were pointing out the obvious--which I missed.

:(

;( Sad face, I will keep working on it.

713 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 10:04:05pm

re: #692 ggt

Because gun laws in this country were created to control minorities. So, in their minds, Zimmerman was doing exactly what he was supossed to be doing as an upstanding patriot. Martin should not have been "walking while a young black man"

Florida has a particular history for this as cited and often used by the same 2nd Amendment Advocates who are standing up for Zimmerman. The hypocrisy is astounding.

"There are other examples of remarkable honesty from the state supreme courts on this subject, of which the finest is probably Florida Supreme Court Justice Buford's concurring opinion in Watson v. Stone (1941), in which a conviction for carrying a handgun without a permit was overturned, because the handgun was in the glove compartment of a car:

I know something of the history of this legislation. The original Act of 1893 was passed when there was a great influx of negro laborers in this State drawn here for the purpose of working in turpentine and lumber camps. The same condition existed when the Act was amended in 1901 and the Act was passed for the purpose of disarming the negro laborers and to thereby reduce the unlawful homicides that were prevalent in turpentine and saw-mill camps and to give the white citizens in sparsely settled areas a better feeling of security. The statute was never intended to be applied to the white population and in practice has never been so applied. [35]"

I just checked Clayon Cramer's blog and he doesn't seem to be a Zimmerman groupie. So, I won't include him in the sweeping hypocrisy statement.

GGT, let me make a point in the interests of fairness: The NRA opposed those Jim Crow era gun laws intended to disarm African-Americans, and denounced them as the oppressive tools of control they were. The NRA was founded in New York State, and its first 7 presidents were all former Union generals, including U.S. Grant himself. It was no friend of Southern racists. Whatever else is true, the National Rifle Association cannot justly be blamed for Segregation-era evils that it did not aid, and in fact openly opposed.

714 Shvaughn  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 10:36:17pm

re: #713 Dark_Falcon

Yeah, but isn't that sorta like pointing out that the Republican party freed the slaves, too? Times change.

715 sagehen  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 10:40:19pm

re: #713 Dark_Falcon

GGT, let me make a point in the interests of fairness: The NRA opposed those Jim Crow era gun laws intended to disarm African-Americans, and denounced them as the oppressive tools of control they were. The NRA was founded in New York State, and its first 7 presidents were all former Union generals, including U.S. Grant himself. It was no friend of Southern racists. Whatever else is true, the National Rifle Association cannot justly be blamed for Segregation-era evils that it did not aid, and in fact openly opposed.

If you haven't read this article
[Link: www.theatlantic.com...]
about how California (under Gov Reagan) came to have strict gun control, you may find it interesting.

716 Lidane  Mon, Mar 26, 2012 10:48:27pm

re: #713 Dark_Falcon

But just like the Democrats and the Republicans switched sides during the civil rights era, the NRA is no longer the same group it was back when it first began.

Whatever they might have been when Grant was a part of it, they're now little more than thralls for the gun manufacturers and their current agenda is radically different.

717 RogueOne  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 4:55:38am

re: #333 Daniel Ballard

There are a number of ways SYG could be ruled out or set aside on this case. But if you really want to use this case to end SYG, you have to argue to elevate it's standing above all of those objections.

Again I think SYG in public is a bad way to balance defensive rights and keeping aggressive people at bay. I really prefer what California does, and that is look at the level of force. It also carefully considers location, as in who approached who. Either of those legal standards would help in Sanford.

This guy might disagree:
(it's trying to embed a text link as a video, take out the spaces in the link..)
live leak.com/view?i=6a2_1268091811

Judge acknowledges self-defense role in Oak Park slaying

"In America, you still have a right to defend yourself on your own property," Sacramento Superior Court Judge Maryanne G. Gilliard said from the bench.
.....
Under the terms of his plea, Castillo faced up to a year in county jail, which the prosecutor asked for on Friday. Castillo's probation report recommended that he serve three years in state prison.

Instead, Gilliard cut the sentence to six months time served, which equated to the four months in custody already turned in by Castillo, given his good-time credits.
....
Gilliard also gave Castillo five years' probation and ordered him to reimburse Velasco's family for the $7,500 they spent on his funeral. Castillo also faces 21 years in prison if he violates his probation.

They tried to put this guy away for 3 years in prison for what the judge admits was a shooting in self-defense. He was forced to take a deal (6 months, 5 yrs probation, and $7500 fine) for protecting himself. That is not "justice".

718 BongCrodny  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 8:48:00am

re: #40 Killgore Trout

We don;t have all the facts yet so I'm not going to pass judgement on who the victim of aggressor was but that's not what the press is interested in. The reality of the case is probably fairly mundane. They're hyping the story, creating drama and stoking racial tensions because that's what the masses want. It makes them money.

Let me help you out here a little bit.

The victim was the guy without the gun.

719 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 9:53:08am

re: #698 Gus

My theory is that Osama bin Laden actually succeeded in creating most of these monstrosities. In a way, he won. This is a bi-product of anti-Muslimists, anti-multiculturalism, it mainstreamed the tone of hatred.

These people hated blacks and were whining about multiculturalism long before anyone who wasn't a terrorism wonk had heard of Bin Laden. This is our own shit, just in a newish mutation.

720 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 10:01:28am

re: #700 Lidane

And things are seriously fucked up in general when people get upset after finding out that a sympathetic and/or popular character in a popular book series happens to be black. WTF? Black people can't be sympathetic or popular?

I really wonder how many people we are talking about here. "Hunger Games" is a huge hit, as have been a bazillion other movies with black supporting characters.

Obviously, these people are ugly-minded and dimwitted, but I feel like in this case, reporting about Twitter has given far too much of a platform to people who've probably been complaining, or their grandparents were, about every black actor cast in a movie since Dorothy Dandridge was in her prime.

Most of America is going to see "Hunger Games" and loving it, or hating it, on its own merits.

721 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 10:06:33am

re: #708 ozbloke

Did I finally make a funny, that Americans understand?

Our humour (Australia) often seems to be missed by Americans.
Alternatively, we are not very funny...

You guys are probably more like the Brits. American humor is largely German in heritage. It doesn't always translate perfectly.


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