Breitbart.com Commenters Spew Racist Hatred at Trayvon Martin

Deranged outright racism, mixed with whiny victimhood
Wingnuts • Views: 39,273

At practically every right wing blog and news site, commenters are retching up unbelievably racist comments about Trayvon Martin today; if it seemed at first like they were going to restrain themselves, that illusion has been thoroughly shattered in the past few days.

At the site run by Andrew Breitbart’s heirs, for example, Ben Shapiro posted several articles today to get the commenters angry and stirred up, and sure enough, they responded with another flood of sickening hatred, raving about “race wars” and whining that they’re unjustly accused of racism — right next to comments using the N word: Trayvon Martin Parents to Testify in Congress.

UUmmm , HE attacked Zimmerman and for that he deserved to die.

[…]

Obama’s father was African (blk) and mother white; why can’t Obama be white? Why isn’t Obama referred to as “white African?”

[…]

Awwwwww … Isn’t that special. /sarc

1.) Why is Conyers still in Congress? He is a known corrupt pol (and his convicted wifey he allegedly knew nothing about) whose DEm pals stopped the ethics investigation,
2.) Conyers’ District is ALL urban thugs and Islamists,
3.) Conyers, like his pal Malik Shabbaz, couldn’t care less if Detroit burns, but they want ALL of America to burn too because yet another black punk got what he deserved - in FLORIDA.

Well, reluctantly, we shall push back until we too may be inclined toward violence.
It’s a shame really … blacks hitching their free mules to the wagons of race-hustlers.
Semper Paratus
~(Ä)~

[…]

They don’t want fairness. They want pay-back.

[…]

It is going to be really interesting if they match the fingerprints from the breakins to Trayvon. Just sayin!

[…]

I GUARANTEE that there will be NO such invitation or “testimony” (eye roll) from WHITE parents or HISPANIC parents about their child being KILLED by a BLACK thug…It’s DISGUSTING that the race card continues to be played by the “pooooor black man”….

[…]

The kid was looking for somebody to rob.

[…]

Amazing bits and pieces emerge about this terrorist. Waiting for the police to drop more “Reality Therapy” bombshells on the false deification of a Hoodie, drug dealer, thief and thug….Democrats enflame their slaves to what end? Treason and Sabotage….for their antiChrist! For their Commumnist Revolution…no thx…Nov6 Freedom will out!

[…]

What about, how the boy was a druggie thug?

[…]

Its to bad the punk Trayvon had to die.He wont be able to steal any more or rape white women,become a stinking pimp,Sale drugs,I think Im going to cry.

[…]

I mean, it’s been going on for a long time but now there’s just no pretense: the USA is being run like a 3rd world country. I can see why a group of baboons is called a Congress.

[…]

Is the WHITE CAUCUS invited to talk to oppose the BLACK CAUCUS?

Oh yea there isn’t a whitey one, that would be so ‘KKK’ I guess ….but ok for them huh? This is what’s wrong with the country, the blacks, not all of course but the majority, think and are taught they’re owed something by Race Baiter Inc. and when they find out it ain’t true and it ain’t coming they end up disaffected and take it out on society in a myriad of ways to numerous to count here.

Oh.. but they can go to college for free and get everything else for free and even kill a few people and write a lyric about it and become an adulated rapper who all the little hoodies admire.

And that’s what most of them wanna be, a pro thug with bling up the ying yang for partyin with da hoes and spleefing it and this and that party party all the time woooowoooooogettoland never felt soooo gooood!!!

[…]

Are the parents of the white kid set on fire by niggs in Kansas City be allowed to testify too?

[…]

We call him Coonyers where I come from…. ;)

[…]

How many Whites have been killed by Blacks (what do you mean “African Americans”? These people weren’t born in Africa.

[…]

Behold another addition to how low a race can sink. Behold the darling, beguiling negro.

Another comment thread for another Ben Shapiro article: NY Legislators Don Hoodies for Martin.

I would expect black and hispanic legislators to go this route. What can you expect from politicians with limited intelligence. Their constituents depend on them for all their welfare benefits , housing medical and food stamps. So considering the group they cater to I’m not surprised that they dress like them too.

[…]

Hey, dey all be darkies!!! Why not whities??? Yep, keep pouring the fuel of racism on the fire and continue to build the black stereotype! Why didn’t you wear crotch-pants, hold your groin, sing raper rapper music, and wear your hats sideways? You’re bringing it on yourself and it will back-fire!!

[…]

They should carry a rope too….so they can do what they REALLY WANT TO DO….LYNCH the guy.Disgusting display of HATE ,the LEFTY’S are really going to push the limit on CIVIL DISCOURSE to attain their true goal CIVIL UNREST!! Of course the Main Stream is in on it as well as the Obama Campaign Committee[i.e.THUGS UNITED]

[…]

…wait, isn’t that Trayvon in the back there? they all look alike, to me.

[…]

A lot of “No_Limit_Niggas” in the NY Legislature. After the meeting they all went out for gold caps and hung out behind the capital building to smoked a blunt and spray paint their name on the wall in honor of Trayvon “No_Limit_Nigga” Martin. Tomorrow they are going to smash a few Mexicans heads on the sidewalk.

[…]

Black on white racism rears it’s butt ugly, stank azz head again.

A black kid gets hiself kilt for beatin on a His-paniced…..and shot da punk……..an right away it’s the white manz fult……NOT !

[…]

There’s a definition for this. It’s called natural selection.

By the by…….. Legislators? They look like a bunch of thugs. Well, of course.

[…]

You White people better organize before its too late! Blacks stick together, right or wrong. They were cheering for OJ (He ain’t done nothin!). They believed the charges against the Duke Lacrosse Team (they all racists!) Who is guilty or not is determined by race. RACE is what matters.

You people should take up the views of Lincoln who said not to let Blacks be jurors or otherwise equals.

[…]

Where’s the outrage from local Black leaders saying stop the madness. Stop the Black Racism. Naw, not a word.. you see only Whites are inherently racist. No other group can be racist.

[…]

Man…..those BOYS sure are stupid looking!
Treyvon was a thug, a little punk who got exactly what he deserved!

[…]

Those congressmen somehow look more appropriately garbed in hoodies than in suit and tie … you know … like seeing a creature in its natural habitat instead of seeing it caged in a zoo. But we must all remember what is important here. Racism perpetrated by white-skinned Latinos must be nipped in the bud before it gains a foothold and spreads across the land.

[…]

Gee, I hope none of these clowns get shot for looking like gangstas.

[…]

Why would you hope that?

[…]

What a bunch of gansta scum. No wonder their young are getting killed by the thousands every year.

[…]

Somebody should have called the cops. These thugs look like they’re about to commit a robbery.

On and on and on it goes. Every thread about Trayvon Martin at breitbart.com is full of comments like these. And again … many of the worst ones have numerous “likes” from other readers.

Jump to bottom

306 comments
1 Targetpractice  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 5:40:14pm

I'm shocked, SHOCKED to hear racism from wingnuts!

///

2 freetoken  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 5:40:44pm

Trayvon has become the surrogate for Barrack Obama.

3 Lidane  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 5:41:27pm

Cue Dan Riehl's latest Twitter tantrum against Charles in 3...2..1..

4 HappyWarrior  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 5:43:36pm

It's hilarious to me that they're accusing the left of wanting to lynch Zimmerman. Is that what wanting a trial is called these days? Really wingnuts? really?

5 Shvaughn  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 5:43:48pm

They still have readers at breitbart.com?

6 Charles Johnson  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 5:44:01pm
7 jaunte  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 5:44:16pm
raving about “race wars” and whining that they’re unjustly accused of racism — right next to comments using the N word

These people are insane, and blindly unaffected by the evidence of their own insanity.

8 Kragar  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 5:44:24pm

re: #5 Shvaughn

They still have readers at breitbart.com?

No, its all Charles and other lizards trying to make them look bad.
///

9 Shvaughn  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 5:44:53pm

re: #6 Charles Johnson

That doesn't even make sense as a good insult.

10 Kragar  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 5:45:11pm

re: #6 Charles Johnson

Dan Riehl looks for Bieber articles? Creepy.

11 HappyWarrior  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 5:45:27pm

re: #6 Charles Johnson

[Embedded content]

Me thinks Mr. Riehl needs to stop smoking crack.

12 Decatur Deb  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 5:47:28pm

I think ammunition is about as cheap as it's going to get for a while.

13 Gus  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 5:48:15pm

re: #6 Charles Johnson

[Embedded content]

Homophobia and right wingers go hand in hand. You know what that means regarding Mr. Riehl. He obviously knew exactly were to find said advice. He probably even has a crush for the young Mr. Bieber.

14 Kragar  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 5:49:07pm

re: #12 Decatur Deb

I think ammunition is about as cheap as it's going to get for a while.

Better stock up before the NRA begins its summer "OBAMA IS GONNA STEAL YER GUNZ!" campaign.

15 Shvaughn  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 5:49:14pm

re: #13 Gus

Homophobia and right wingers go hand in hand. You know what that means regarding Mr. Riehl. He obviously knew exactly were to find said advice. He probably even has a crush for the young Mr. Bieber.

That's not an appropriate way for our side to criticize Riehl.

16 Charles Johnson  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 5:49:48pm

I can't tell if Riehl is being homophobic with that juvenile comment, or just incoherent.

17 jaunte  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 5:50:02pm

Shaun King:

"The fourth and final murder of Trayvon Martin is happening right now at the hands of commentators and racists that are blaming him for his own death."
[Link: www.shauninthecity.com...]

18 Kragar  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 5:50:11pm

re: #16 Charles Johnson

I can't tell if Riehl is being homophobic with that juvenile comment, or just incoherent.

Can't it be both?

19 celticdragon  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 5:50:38pm

re: #16 Charles Johnson

I can't tell if Riehl is being homophobic with that juvenile comment, or just incoherent.

I'll take incoherency for 200 dollars, Alex...

20 Gus  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 5:50:44pm

re: #15 Shvaughn

That's not an appropriate way for our side to criticize Riehl.

Meh.

21 Decatur Deb  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 5:51:03pm

re: #16 Charles Johnson

I can't tell if Riehl is being homophobic with that juvenile comment, or just incoherent.

He's being dated. Grandkids tell me Bieber is 'over'.

22 jaunte  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 5:51:44pm

Bieber, we hardly knew ye.

23 Kragar  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 5:51:46pm

Would it be inappropriate to say Dan Riehl's favorite flavor of chips is paint?

24 William Barnett-Lewis  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 5:52:34pm

re: #2 freetoken

Trayvon has become the surrogate for Barrack Obama.

Of course. You don't get a visit from the Secret Service for bad mouthing someone who's already dead. Threaten a president? Not so safe and even these geniuses can figure that much out.

25 Gus  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 5:52:37pm

re: #23 Kragar

Would it be inappropriate to say Dan Riehl's favorite flavor of chips is paint?

Go right ahead. I won't call the whambulance.

26 Kragar  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 5:53:44pm

re: #25 Gus

Go right ahead. I won't call the whambulance.

I was just asking questions, as a concerned poster...

27 celticdragon  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 5:54:46pm

What really chaps me is that between the utter incompetence of the Sanford PD and the smoke being thrown up by the wingnuts, Zimmerman may never wind up even being charged. I watched some comments from a former prosecutor today who said this was a pretty straightforward case to prosecute. The guy serveiled and followed an unarmed kid going about his legal business...he confronted the kid and kid ends up shot. None of those facts are in dispute...but that doesn't even seem to matter now.

28 Achilles Tang  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 5:54:55pm

re: #23 Kragar

Would it be inappropriate to say Dan Riehl's favorite flavor of chips is paint?

Before 1978?

29 Shvaughn  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 5:55:08pm

re: #20 Gus

Meh.

You can't both condemn him for homophobia and then in the same sentence go "hur hur he's gay."

I mean, you CAN, but it's stupid.

30 Stanghazi  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 5:55:16pm

And we are told this is not about race.

Bullshit, all the way.

31 William Barnett-Lewis  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 5:55:48pm

re: #12 Decatur Deb

I think ammunition is about as cheap as it's going to get for a while.

It's funny, I went to the reloading store today to buy some bullets, powder & primers. I made a comment about needing to stock up before the idiots went crazy again and the person at the counter agreed. Then again, this was the only place that never gouged us during the last "shortage" so perhaps they're old school Wisconsin.

32 Shvaughn  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 5:55:59pm

re: #27 celticdragon

What really chaps me is that between the utter incompetence of the Sanford PD and the smoke being thrown up by the wingnuts, Zimmerman may never wind up even being charged. I watched some comments from a former prosecutor today who said this was a pretty straightforward case to prosecute. The guy serveiled and followed an unarmed kid going about his legal business...he confronted the kid and kid ends up shot. None of those facts are in dispute...but that doesn't even seem to matter now.

Yeah what seems to matter is whether or not the kid was perfect in school.

33 HappyWarrior  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 5:56:47pm

re: #27 celticdragon

What really chaps me is that between the utter incompetence of the Sanford PD and the smoke being thrown up by the wingnuts, Zimmerman may never wind up even being charged. I watched some comments from a former prosecutor today who said this was a pretty straightforward case to prosecute. The guy serveiled and followed an unarmed kid going about his legal business...he confronted the kid and kid ends up shot. None of those facts are in dispute...but that doesn't even seem to matter now.

It's amazing isn't it that he hasn't been so much as charged with a crime. I don't know if he's guilty of murder or not but he should be charged with a crime.

34 Shvaughn  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 5:57:20pm

Wow, I made the "bottom 10" comments for saying that we shouldn't criticize Riehl's homophobia by saying he's got a gay crush.

35 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 5:57:24pm

re: #27 celticdragon

What really chaps me is that between the utter incompetence of the Sanford PD and the smoke being thrown up by the wingnuts, Zimmerman may never wind up even being charged. I watched some comments from a former prosecutor today who said this was a pretty straightforward case to prosecute. The guy serveiled and followed an unarmed kid going about his legal business...he confronted the kid and kid ends up shot. None of those facts are in dispute...but that doesn't even seem to matter now.

I think it matters to the DOJ. The Court of the Media Circus won't convene in time for the next best drama to come around.

36 celticdragon  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 5:57:28pm

re: #29 Shvaughn

You can't both condemn him for homophobia and then in the same sentence go "hur hur he's gay."

I mean, you CAN, but it's stupid.

The inference wasn't that he was gay. The inference was that he was a pederast or a pedophile.

37 Obdicut  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 5:58:15pm

re: #15 Shvaughn

It's not necessarily a criticism, really. I wouldn't do it, but it's actually more forgiving of Mr. Reihl-- being conflicted due to coming to grips with his own sexuality-- than just assuming he's a horrific bigot.

Mr. Reihl does have an obsession with mentioning-- usually accusing-- others of pedophilia and homosexuality. It's something worth noting that he does that. I wouldn't speculate as to motives, but I'd really note that Gus's explanation doesn't just read as 'hurr hurr he's gay' to me, though it could be read that way.

38 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 5:59:28pm

I've been totally successful at ignoring Mr. Reihl.

39 Targetpractice  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 5:59:32pm

re: #33 HappyWarrior

It's amazing isn't it that he hasn't been so much as charged with a crime. I don't know if he's guilty of murder or not but he should be charged with a crime.

Except he can't be charged under the "Stand Your Ground" law in place. The lead homicide investigator tried to at least get him charged with manslaughter and the state attorney's office said no. So long as Zimmerman and his attorney maintain their "self-defense" bit, and nobody steps forward with evidence that Zimmerman initiated the fight, then he legally can't be charged with a crime.

40 erik_t  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 5:59:38pm

Well, dozens of morons are now able to find articles on breitbart.com, possibly with the googles. This is... progress for them?

41 wrenchwench  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 5:59:40pm

re: #37 Obdicut

It's not necessarily a criticism, really. I wouldn't do it, but it's actually more forgiving of Mr. Reihl-- being conflicted due to coming to grips with his own sexuality-- than just assuming he's a horrific bigot.

Mr. Reihl does have an obsession with mentioning-- usually accusing-- others of pedophilia and homosexuality. It's something worth noting that he does that. I wouldn't speculate as to motives, but I'd really note that Gus's explanation doesn't just read as 'hurr hurr he's gay' to me, though it could be read that way.

Riehl certainly exemplifies that 'totally betrayed' attitude of the ones who used to really like Charles.

42 Shvaughn  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 6:00:07pm

re: #36 celticdragon

The inference wasn't that he was gay. The inference was that he was a pederast or a pedophile.

Bieber's 18, though.

In any case, calling someone a child rapist is the kind of things the other side does to Charles -- not the kind of things we should be doing even if they're assholes.

With Riehl, it's not like there's a lack of stuff to condemn him for that he's actually done. I'd rather we stick to legitimate grounds rather than making stuff.

43 Obdicut  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 6:00:19pm

re: #34 Shvaughn

Wow, I made the "bottom 10" comments for saying that we shouldn't criticize Riehl's homophobia by saying he's got a gay crush.

Heh, at -2 that's not much of a bottom 10. I'd give you an upding but it feels patronizing now. I think your point was perfectly fair but you were a little, like, general talking to the troops-y. Or at least, it could be read that way.

44 Gus  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 6:00:26pm

re: #36 celticdragon

The inference wasn't that he was gay. The inference was that he was a pederast or a pedophile.

Don't put words in my mouth. Bieber is 18 years old in the first place. Secondly, what I said is no different tan saying "he's projecting". We've done this many times before.

45 Shvaughn  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 6:01:11pm

re: #43 Obdicut

Heh, at -2 that's not much of a bottom 10. I'd give you an upding but it feels patronizing now. I think your point was perfectly fair but you were a little, like, general talking to the troops-y. Or at least, it could be read that way.

Give me a downding. :D

46 Obdicut  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 6:01:29pm

re: #45 Shvaughn

You're not the general of me!

47 Charles Johnson  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 6:01:57pm

re: #41 wrenchwench

Riehl certainly exemplifies that 'totally betrayed' attitude of the ones who used to really like Charles.

Dan Riehl used to email me regularly back in the day, begging me to link to his crappy blog. Once he sent me an incredibly whiny complaint that I never linked to him, why, why?

He's not right in the head.

48 darthstar  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 6:03:32pm

re: #47 Charles Johnson

Dan Riehl used to email me regularly back in the day, begging me to link to his crappy blog. Once he sent me an incredibly whiny complaint that I never linked to him, why, why?

He's not right in the head.

He just needs a hug.

49 Decatur Deb  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 6:03:41pm

re: #31 William Barnett-Lewis

It's funny, I went to the reloading store today to buy some bullets, powder & primers. I made a comment about needing to stock up before the idiots went crazy again and the person at the counter agreed. Then again, this was the only place that never gouged us during the last "shortage" so perhaps they're old school Wisconsin.

What's your rate of fire, in hours? Can you reload while running through the woods to the sound of bagpipes?

50 A Man for all Seasons  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 6:03:41pm

re: #6 Charles Johnson

[Embedded content]

What the hell was that Charles? How effen low does it go now with these folks?
Will America lose it's soul covered in Shame?
I'm Sorry Dr. King..I'm sorry about your dream of a color blind country...
We take one step forward then two steps back

51 Stanghazi  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 6:04:10pm

re: #43 Obdicut

Heh, at -2 that's not much of a bottom 10. I'd give you an upding but it feels patronizing now. I think your point was perfectly fair but you were a little, like, general talking to the troops-y. Or at least, it could be read that way.

I patronized happily! whoo, I'm off work!

52 Shvaughn  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 6:05:01pm

re: #51 Hoodies for Justice. T

I patronized happily! whoo, I'm off work!

You bastard!

53 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 6:05:53pm

re: #49 Decatur Deb

What's your rate of fire, in hours? Can you reload while running through the woods to the sound of bagpipes?

If you reload while running in the woods to the sound of bagpipes - - who is playing the bagpipes.

54 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 6:06:34pm

Worth a read.

When the rug is pulled

So here’s me, accomplished and talented, sitting with my also accomplished and talented friends at a local bar enjoying ourselves. Not obtrusively, but in the normal way for people our age. Up sidles a young gentleman, drunk and friendly, who began chatting and joking with us. After 5 or so minutes, he leans in and asks me if I can sell him some cocaine. Baffled, I told him that if he was pulling some kind of gag, I didn’t get it.

His response: “C’mon man, you know. Big black guy… you’ve got to be selling drugs right?”

55 Achilles Tang  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 6:07:07pm

From this page

JUSTICE KENNEDY: But the reason, the reason this is concerning, is because it requires the individual to do an affirmative act. In the law of torts our tradition, our law, has been that you don’t have the duty to rescue someone if that person is in danger. The blind man is walking in front of a car and you do not have a duty to stop him absent some relation between you. And there is some severe moral criticisms of that rule, but that’s generally the rule.

So, there is no obligation in the USA constitution to "do an affirmative act", therefore there is no social, or moral, obligation to do an affirmative act, therefore there is, for example, no so called Christian tradition in the USA constitution, therefore there is no point in the US Supreme Court to rule on anything that involves morality if it wasn't thought of, and specifically written down, by people some 200 plus years ago.

You're on your own suckers; don't look to us for wisdom.//

56 Gus  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 6:07:41pm

re: #48 darthstar

He just needs a hug.

Don't say that. You're ridiculing what should be an acceptable behavior with the male species. People need more hugs and you're little jab is downplaying it's validity and something that should be respected. It is also highly significant in a variety of global cultures. Don't just say "he needs a hug." Mean it!

//

57 Shvaughn  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 6:08:44pm

re: #56 Gus

Don't say that. You're ridiculing what should be an acceptable behavior with the male species. People need more hugs and you're little jab is downplaying it's validity and something that should be respected. It is also highly significant in a variety of global cultures. Don't just say "he needs a hug." Mean it!

//

You sound like you need a hug now.

58 Decatur Deb  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 6:08:57pm

re: #53 ggt

If you reload while running in the woods to the sound of bagpipes - - who is playing the bagpipes.

Clannad

Youtube Video
59 Obdicut  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 6:09:05pm

re: #56 Gus

I would totally hug you just a few moments longer than you were comfortable with.

60 darthstar  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 6:10:14pm

re: #56 Gus

Don't say that. You're ridiculing what should be an acceptable behavior with the male species. People need more hugs and you're little jab is downplaying it's validity and something that should be respected. It is also highly significant in a variety of global cultures. Don't just say "he needs a hug." Mean it!

//

He needs a MOTHERFUCKING MAN-HUG, Charles...Riehl is a sensitive flower, fragile as an unfertilized egg in the Hudson River of Sarah Palin's fallopian tubes.

Is that better, Gus?

61 Gus  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 6:10:25pm

Well. Now someone told me that re-Tweeting this only helps spread their venom.

Gee. Maybe I do need a hug. Maybe I'll work on some projects.

62 jaunte  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 6:11:25pm

OT: Unplug Irony meters for safety:
Outside Supreme Court, conservatives sound like liberals

Think you’ve already heard every possible argument against the health-insurance reform now known as Obamacare? Then I’m going to guess you weren’t there when conservative Iowa Congressman Steve King stepped to the portable lectern in front of the Supreme Court on Tuesday morning and, repeating the words scribbled on a handmade sign being waved around over his head by a man in a cowboy hat, warned the government to “Keep your law off my BODY!!’’

63 Obdicut  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 6:12:15pm

re: #61 Gus

Coatimundi hug or possibly sexual assault!

[Link: blueridgeblog.blogs.com...]

64 darthstar  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 6:12:34pm

re: #57 Shvaughn

You sound like you need a hug now.

I was standing at "speed control" a few weekends ago while on ski patrol (by a slow sign trying to get people to check their speed before trails merged) and I was holding my arms open and waving my poles to people in general and some guy on a snowboard comes by and says, "Dude, do you need a hug?" I said, "Always!"...and he smiled his stoned smile and passed me by.

65 Stanghazi  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 6:12:55pm

re: #54 Pope Ron Polyp XXXVII

Worth a read.

When the rug is pulled

Wow, that was good. I'm following on twitter now.

66 Shvaughn  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 6:13:34pm

re: #64 darthstar

I was standing at "speed control" a few weekends ago while on ski patrol (by a slow sign trying to get people to check their speed before trails merged) and I was holding my arms open and waving my poles to people in general and some guy on a snowboard comes by and says, "Dude, do you need a hug?" I said, "Always!"...and he smiled his stoned smile and passed me by.

That is a sad story.

67 darthstar  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 6:14:18pm

re: #66 Shvaughn

That is a sad story.

It's not sad...I thought it was one of the nicer things anyone said to me.

68 Obdicut  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 6:15:30pm

re: #66 Shvaughn

That is a sad story.

[Taiko beat]

By the way, tonight is my first night I haven't had something critical due the next morning, so I'm going to actually be relaxing woo.

69 Charles Johnson  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 6:15:56pm

re: #61 Gus

Well. Now someone told me that re-Tweeting this only helps spread their venom.

I get that one sometimes too. But the truth is exactly the opposite - ignoring this evil crap lets them flourish and spread their hatred. Shining a light on it is damned uncomfortable, but it has to be done.

70 A Man for all Seasons  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 6:16:09pm

re: #59 Obdicut

I would totally hug you just a few moments longer than you were comfortable with.

It's ok..Just keep patting him on his back during the hug..You'll get another 15 seconds out of it...And if you are playing sports you get to pat anybody on your team during time outs on the butt..except the coach.. For some unknown reason only coach gets to slap your butt
/

71 Kragar  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 6:17:18pm

re: #64 darthstar

I was standing at "speed control" a few weekends ago while on ski patrol (by a slow sign trying to get people to check their speed before trails merged) and I was holding my arms open and waving my poles to people in general and some guy on a snowboard comes by and says, "Dude, do you need a hug?" I said, "Always!"...and he smiled his stoned smile and passed me by.

When I was in the Marines, a certain amount of grabass and wrestling was bound to occur. The quickest way to end a potential wrestling match was "SOMEBODY NEEDS A HUG! HUGS!!!"

Worked like a charm nearly every time.

72 Obdicut  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 6:17:35pm

Hell I think I'll even have a beer. Purple Haze Ibita.

73 Gus  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 6:18:07pm

This is pretty gross -- considering the timing of it all.

74 Stanghazi  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 6:19:27pm

re: #69 Charles Johnson

Checking out your followers to see Mr. Crump (good) see that Cheney's new heart is following you. Lucky!

75 Shvaughn  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 6:19:32pm

re: #67 darthstar

It's not sad...I thought it was one of the nicer things anyone said to me.

He didn't hug you?

76 Obdicut  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 6:21:43pm

re: #73 Gus

I think it's just coincidence. But I really, really think gun-owners are underestimating the amount of distrust this is going to raise among people who aren't familiar with guns.

77 b_sharp  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 6:21:47pm

{{*}}

78 TedStriker  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 6:21:47pm

re: #6 Charles Johnson

[Embedded content]

What a creepy dickhead Riehl is.

79 Tigger2005  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 6:22:00pm

re: #55 Blue Spot Vlamingii Tang

From this page

So, there is no obligation in the USA constitution to "do an affirmative act", therefore there is no social, or moral, obligation to do an affirmative act, therefore there is, for example, no so called Christian tradition in the USA constitution, therefore there is no point in the US Supreme Court to rule on anything that involves morality if it wasn't thought of, and specifically written down, by people some 200 plus years ago.

You're on your own suckers; don't look to us for wisdom.//

I don't agree with Kennedy's reasoning at all. I think you do have a duty to stop, say, a blind man from walking in front of a car, as long as it does not put you in danger yourself.

80 Shvaughn  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 6:22:35pm

re: #73 Gus

This is pretty gross -- considering the timing of it all.

A real unfortunate coincidence. Also the NRA is a bunch of jerks, but I don't think that was anything other than coincidentally bad timing.

81 darthstar  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 6:22:48pm

re: #75 Shvaughn

He didn't hug you?

Nah...the verbal hug was enough. When I'm out on patrol, my favorite part of the job is teasing back and forth with the skiers...skied up to a lady with a blown knee once and she said, "Well, at least I've got a handsome ski patroller here to rescue me." and I said "Oh, you called for a handsome patroller? Hang on and I'll get one for you..." and reached for my radio. Hey, she's screwed for six weeks at least, so I'd might as well make the experience fun.

82 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 6:23:00pm

re: #79 Tigger2005

I don't agree with Kennedy's reasoning at all. I think you do have a duty to stop, say, a blind man from walking in front of a car, as long as it does not put you in danger yourself.

Can you cite the law?

83 William Barnett-Lewis  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 6:23:04pm

re: #73 Gus

This is pretty gross -- considering the timing of it all.

Please God, save the 2nd Amendment from the NRA? With friends like them...

84 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 6:23:51pm

re: #27 celticdragon

What really chaps me is that between the utter incompetence of the Sanford PD and the smoke being thrown up by the wingnuts, Zimmerman may never wind up even being charged. I watched some comments from a former prosecutor today who said this was a pretty straightforward case to prosecute. The guy serveiled and followed an unarmed kid going about his legal business...he confronted the kid and kid ends up shot. None of those facts are in dispute...but that doesn't even seem to matter now.

is it actually incompetence or merely influence being leveraged?

When you're the son of a retired judge who gets to conceal carry, the facts are changed to fit the narrative


remember what the cops said? "Squeaky clean!"

this is intentional

85 SidewaysQuark  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 6:24:27pm

Questioning why Martin "looked like a thug", but not questioning for a second why Zimmerman got out of his car and followed him with a gun. Idiots.

86 Kragar  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 6:25:24pm

re: #84 windupbird is in the gravity well

is it actually incompetence or merely influence being leveraged?

When you're the son of a retired judge who gets to conceal carry, the facts are changed to fit the narrative

remember what the cops said? "Squeaky clean!"

this is intentional

Hell, the cop in charge of the scene had been busted for covering up for someone with connections the year before, not like its never happened in Sanford before.

87 TedStriker  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 6:26:59pm

re: #21 Decatur Deb

He's being dated. Grandkids tell me Bieber is 'over'.

I imagine so, especially with tweens and young teens, since Bieber's over 18 and officially old now.

88 b_sharp  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 6:27:15pm

re: #85 SidewaysQuark

Questioning why Martin "looked like a thug", but not questioning for a second why Zimmerman got out of his car and followed him with a gun. Idiots.

You've seen that before.
RWNJ idiocy I mean.

89 b_sharp  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 6:27:59pm

re: #87 talon_262

I imagine so, especially with tweens and young teens, since Bieber's over 18 and officially old now.

He still sings an octave too high.

90 Decatur Deb  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 6:28:13pm

re: #86 Kragar

Hell, the cop in charge of the scene had been busted for covering up for someone with connections the year before, not like its never happened in Sanford before.

Moonbats are never satisfied!! Sanford has a kinder, gentler police force!!1!

91 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 6:28:47pm

re: #85 SidewaysQuark

Questioning why Martin "looked like a thug", but not questioning for a second why Zimmerman got out of his car and followed him with a gun. Idiots.

Zimmerman is the son of a judge

Sanford PD are probably not idiots, more like criminals, the lack of questioning is a feature, not a bug

cops can be criminals too! And if a cop's job is threatened because his boss says "hey, it came down from on high"

well ain't that just peachy :) Florida cops are corrupt? next you'll tell me the NYPD raped a guy with a broom handle

92 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 6:29:22pm
The arresting officers beat Louima with their fists, nightsticks, and hand-held police radios on the ride to the station.[2] On arriving at the station house, he was strip-searched and put in a holding cell. The beating continued later, culminating with Louima being sexually assaulted in a bathroom at the 70th Precinct station house in Brooklyn. Volpe kicked Louima in the testicles, then, while Louima's hands were cuffed behind his back, he first grabbed onto and squeezed his testicles and then sodomized him with a plunger, causing severe internal damage to his colon and bladder that required several operations to repair. According to trial testimony, Volpe then walked through the precinct holding the bloody, excrement-stained instrument in his hand, bragging to a Police Sergeant that he, "took a man down tonight."[3]

I have not a doubt in my mind that Florida police have done worse

93 darthstar  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 6:29:29pm

re: #90 Decatur Deb

I'd like to visit Florida some time, but I'm afraid they'd make me give up a chromosome at the airport before I was allowed in.

94 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 6:31:01pm

re: #15 Shvaughn

That's not an appropriate way for our side to criticize Riehl.

This is a running joke after Riehl began flinging such insults (accusations of being a child molester) towards Charles.

95 jaunte  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 6:31:12pm
96 Obdicut  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 6:31:34pm

re: #79 Tigger2005

I don't think it should be criminalized if you don't save someone, though. There can be a lot of reasons for it and it can turn mobby very quickly. However, the comparison is silly-- it's a tense, momentary situation. That you might have to do things for the benefit of your community-- like disposing of embers carefully, maintaining tree breaks, etc-- is part of the social contract. We already tell people that they're forbidden to have certain substances in their body-- we already force people to do things that are for the good of the community and we already make body-decisions for people. The fact that everyone is in the situation of having a body is, I think, over-obsessing people. It's not making people buy health insurance because it's a value or virtue the state is imposing, but out of a practical plan to deal with an acknowledged public program.

We already provide critical medical care for those who present themselves to doctors and hospitals. We, as a society, have decided that people cannot be left to be hit by trains, and that any agent of society who sees that-- a cop, a fireman-- would instantly try to save that person.

Whether its delivered via the inefficient way of the mandate or the more sensible way of single-payer, the purpose behind it is the protection of the common good. We all wind up paying for the sick in the US anyway, one way or another. We can't escape it unless we actually act like people who, as a society, have no responsibility to save a guy in front of a train.

97 jamesfirecat  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 6:31:54pm

re: #95 jaunte

Mandating vaginal probes that the probee has to pay for.

98 HappyWarrior  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 6:33:12pm

re: #95 jaunte

[Embedded content]

Yep but it shouldn't shock anyone at all anymore.

99 Obdicut  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 6:35:01pm

re: #94 'M AFFN FUN

This is a running joke after Riehl began flinging such insults (accusations of being a child molester) towards Charles.

And me!

100 Gus  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 6:37:59pm

OT

Good times!

Jane Fonda to play Nancy Reagan in 'Butler'

101 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 6:38:31pm

re: #99 Obdicut

And me!

I'm almost envious now. /

102 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 6:38:45pm

re: #100 Gus

lol

103 Obdicut  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 6:39:04pm

re: #101 'M AFFN FUN

It's really easy, apparently it's his go-to insult. It's very creepy.

104 Kragar  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 6:40:28pm

re: #103 Obdicut

It's really easy, apparently it's his go-to insult. It's very creepy.

Projection is an ugly thing.

105 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 6:41:47pm

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

Dan “black kids fear me” Riehl is speculating that Bill Sparkman, the census worker found murdered in Kentucky, was a child predator.

Yes, really.

His evidence? He don’t got to show you no steenking evidence!

All he knows is that the murder wasn’t committed by anyone on his side — so why not accuse the victim of being a child molester? Riehl World View: Was Census Worker Bill Sparkman A Child Predator?

106 Lidane  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 6:42:12pm

re: #100 Gus

OT

Good times!

Jane Fonda to play Nancy Reagan in 'Butler'

That sound you hear is a bunch of wingnut heads going 'splodey.

107 Achilles Tang  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 6:44:56pm

re: #55 Blue Spot Vlamingii Tang

From this page

JUSTICE KENNEDY: But the reason, the reason this is concerning, is because it requires the individual to do an affirmative act. In the law of torts our tradition, our law, has been that you don’t have the duty to rescue someone if that person is in danger. The blind man is walking in front of a car and you do not have a duty to stop him absent some relation between you. And there is some severe moral criticisms of that rule, but that’s generally the rule.

I'm bumping, punting, this comment because it seems so significant and so flawed to me, but only a few of this intelligent audience registers a response.

Whether or not our written constitution has a specific reference to an "affirmative act", I do not think there is any person of any political persuasion in this country that would allow anyone to die in the street because of what was not in their wallet.

The legal technocrat in Justice Kennedy would then have us believe that there is a distinction between requiring a citizen to act in their own self interest versus requiring all other to act by mandate to help, as opposed to acting involuntarily without mandate through existing taxes as we all do by long tradition.

I call bullshit from the Supreme Court./

108 Gus  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 6:45:10pm

re: #106 Lidane

That sound you hear is a bunch of wingnut heads going 'splodey.

Boom!

Kaboom!

109 Stanghazi  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 6:46:35pm

re: #93 darthstar

I'd like to visit Florida some time, but I'm afraid they'd make me give up a chromosome at the airport before I was allowed in.

I'm from there. It's not all bad. The best beaches, and wonderful seafood (that I miss terribly being out here with the cold pacific fare)

But its backwards, yes its backwards. My Dad lives in South Carolina which is worse.

And the humidity sucks.

111 Obdicut  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 6:47:44pm

re: #107 Blue Spot Vlamingii Tang

100% agreement. The whole point is we're not talking about individual action, but something everyone is doing. They're seeing that as a negative overreach, but it's not about 'making everyone buy something', it's about 'we already give critical medical treatment to people, and this will make that task easier on everyone'.

112 Stanghazi  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 6:48:51pm

re: #100 Gus

OT

Good times!

Jane Fonda to play Nancy Reagan in 'Butler'

She's PERFECT.

113 Stanghazi  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 6:50:06pm

re: #100 Gus

OT

Good times!

Jane Fonda to play Nancy Reagan in 'Butler'

Oh, and the movie itself, about a very very honorable man who saw so much. Cannot wait.

114 Decatur Deb  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 6:51:38pm

re: #109 Hoodies for Justice. T

I'm from there. It's not all bad. The best beaches, and wonderful seafood (that I miss terribly being out here with the cold pacific fare)

But its backwards, yes its backwards. My Dad lives in South Carolina which is worse.

And the humidity sucks.

No snow, max elevation about 300ft MSL.

115 Gus  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 6:52:07pm

DEBATE: Outrage Growing Over “Hanoi Jane” Fonda Being Cast as Nancy Reagan in New Film

116 Stanghazi  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 6:53:04pm

LOL, this is such a shitshow

117 jaunte  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 6:53:33pm
118 TedStriker  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 6:54:01pm

re: #47 Charles Johnson

Dan Riehl used to email me regularly back in the day, begging me to link to his crappy blog. Once he sent me an incredibly whiny complaint that I never linked to him, why, why?

He's not right in the head.

re: #48 darthstar

He just needs a hug.

With about 20-30cc of thorazine...

119 austin_blue  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 6:54:28pm

"…wait, isn’t that Trayvon in the back there? they all look alike, to me."

And this is the Truth for these commenters. They are simply incapable of seeing beyond their prejudices. Wide lawns, narrow minds.

120 Stanghazi  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 6:56:30pm

re: #114 Decatur Deb

No snow, max elevation about 300ft MSL.

Ha, when I was in school at Gainesville & rode a bike, damn those were the only hills I'd ever seen. It was painful.

121 Stanghazi  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 6:59:37pm

Oh GOP, Newt is out of money. Adelson must have pulled the plug.

122 Four More Tears  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 7:00:50pm

re: #121 Hoodies for Justice. T

Oh GOP, Newt is out of money. Adelson must have pulled the plug.

No, Adelson money couldn't be used for campaigning. That's the real problem.

123 Gus  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 7:01:27pm

This is almost similar to the recent outburst on another flight..."Flight attendant subdued after ranting about crashing, 9/11 attacks..." However here:

124 Targetpractice  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 7:04:22pm

re: #107 Blue Spot Vlamingii Tang

I'm bumping, punting, this comment because it seems so significant and so flawed to me, but only a few of this intelligent audience registers a response.

Whether or not our written constitution has a specific reference to an "affirmative act", I do not think there is any person of any political persuasion in this country that would allow anyone to die in the street because of what was not in their wallet.

The legal technocrat in Justice Kennedy would then have us believe that there is a distinction between requiring a citizen to act in their own self interest versus requiring all other to act by mandate to help, as opposed to acting involuntarily without mandate through existing taxes as we all do by long tradition.

I call bullshit from the Supreme Court./

It really reads like Kennedy trying to grope around for something, anything, upon which to build opposition to the mandate.

125 Four More Tears  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 7:07:28pm

Joe Oliver, Zimmerman's (redacted) friend, is on O'Donnell.

Don't look at me like that, he said it was okay!!!

126 moderatelyradicalliberal  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 7:08:55pm

re: #55 Blue Spot Vlamingii Tang

From this page

So, there is no obligation in the USA constitution to "do an affirmative act", therefore there is no social, or moral, obligation to do an affirmative act, therefore there is, for example, no so called Christian tradition in the USA constitution, therefore there is no point in the US Supreme Court to rule on anything that involves morality if it wasn't thought of, and specifically written down, by people some 200 plus years ago.

You're on your own suckers; don't look to us for wisdom.//

Is this the kind of legal mind that this decision rests upon? Good Lord. You may not have an obligation to save a blind man, but if said blind man lives when the paramedics arrive they do have an obligation to take him to the ER where he will be required by law to be treated. If he is uninsured, who pays his bill?

127 Four More Tears  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 7:11:55pm

re: #126 moderatelyradicalliberal

Is this the kind of legal mind that this decision rests upon? Good Lord. You may not have an obligation to save a blind man, but if said blind man lives when the paramedics arrive they do have an obligation to take him to the ER where he will be required by law to be treated. If he is uninsured, who pays his bill?

Healthcare fairies sprinkle anesthetic dust over the patient first...

128 b_sharp  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 7:14:08pm

re: #117 jaunte

Projecting.
People are willing to believe others are capable of acting in ways they themselves would act. They expect it.

129 Achilles Tang  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 7:15:01pm

re: #124 Targetpractice

It really reads like Kennedy trying to grope around for something, anything, upon which to build opposition to the mandate.

Groping Supreme Court Justices is not something that instills great respect in me.

130 Four More Tears  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 7:15:06pm

re: #123 Gus

This is almost similar to the recent outburst on another flight..."Flight attendant subdued after ranting about crashing, 9/11 attacks..." However here:

I know, let's repeal regulations that require pilots get a minimum amount of rest.

131 Targetpractice  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 7:15:16pm

re: #126 moderatelyradicalliberal

Is this the kind of legal mind that this decision rests upon? Good Lord. You may not have an obligation to save a blind man, but if said blind man lives when the paramedics arrive they do have an obligation to take him to the ER where he will be required by law to be treated. If he is uninsured, who pays his bill?

Given the choice, the wingnuts would toss his ass in the dumpster behind the hospital and call it a night. In their minds, if he's not got insurance, that's because he was a lazy parasite who is expecting hard-working Americans to pay his bills for him.

132 Four More Tears  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 7:16:02pm

re: #129 Blue Spot Vlamingii Tang

Groping Supreme Court Justices is not something that instills great respect in me.

You are filthy enough to truly be one of us.

133 Gus  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 7:17:31pm

re: #130 Altar Boy of Darwinism

I know, let's repeal regulations that require pilots get a minimum amount of rest.

Psychology is the science of the debil! What this man needs is a good exorcism.

//

134 jaunte  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 7:17:39pm

re: #125 Altar Boy of Darwinism

Joe Oliver, Zimmerman's (redacted) friend, is on O'Donnell.

Don't look at me like that, he said it was okay!!!

It's pathetic. He's not doing Zimmerman any favors.

135 Four More Tears  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 7:17:48pm

Why is MSNBC darkening and lightening Joe Oliver right now???

136 Achilles Tang  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 7:18:03pm

re: #132 Altar Boy of Darwinism

You are filthy enough to truly be one of us.

I'm not sure why exactly, but I'll take that positively.

137 Stanghazi  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 7:18:15pm

re: #131 Targetpractice

Given the choice, the wingnuts would toss his ass in the dumpster behind the hospital and call it a night. In their minds, if he's not got insurance, that's because he was a lazy parasite who is expecting hard-working Americans to pay his bills for him.

But that is exactly opposite to their argument about the mandate - its your CHOICE not to buy in!

138 b_sharp  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 7:19:05pm

re: #132 Altar Boy of Darwinism

You are filthy enough to truly be one of us.

It ain't filth if it's fun.

139 Four More Tears  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 7:20:52pm

re: #136 Blue Spot Vlamingii Tang

I'm not sure why exactly, but I'll take that positively.

So you unintentionally put the words "Groping Supreme Court Justices" together?

Even better.

140 jaunte  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 7:22:06pm

re: #135 Altar Boy of Darwinism

Why is MSNBC darkening and lightening Joe Oliver right now???

141 Targetpractice  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 7:22:08pm

re: #137 Hoodies for Justice. T

But that is exactly opposite to their argument about the mandate - its your CHOICE not to buy in!

That's just it, it's a false choice. That ambulance that showed up to help the blind man hit by a car? Yeah, he can't turn them away just because he ain't got no health insurance. Same as he can't tell them to drop his ass off at the front of the hospital and not the ER. There's no "choice" in whether or not you participate in healthcare, unless you act like a hermit and seal yourself off from all human contact. And even then, they probably going to chase you down when they haven't heard from you in a few days.

142 Stanghazi  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 7:22:38pm
143 Achilles Tang  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 7:23:04pm

re: #131 Targetpractice

Given the choice, the wingnuts would toss his ass in the dumpster behind the hospital and call it a night. In their minds, if he's not got insurance, that's because he was a lazy parasite who is expecting hard-working Americans to pay his bills for him.

Sounds relevant, but in truth I believe very few would actually do so. I had a brief exchange with a nice GOP man this evening and touched on this subject. The only answer I received was "beat Obama". No logic anywhere else.

Politics is like religion; cognitive dissonance rules.

144 Gus  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 7:23:20pm

re: #135 Altar Boy of Darwinism

Why is MSNBC darkening and lightening Joe Oliver right now???

You know there really is a technique for that which many photographers or videographers sometimes ignore. For example:

New York Institute of Photography - Photographing People of Color | African American Photos | NYIP

Rather simply the light and exposure settings are different.

145 jaunte  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 7:24:26pm

re: #144 Gus

I think one of their bulbs just failed in the middle of the conversation. He was lit perfectly well to begin with.

146 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 7:25:16pm

re: #2 freetoken

Trayvon has become the surrogate for Barrack Obama.

Ding, ding, ding.

Yes, I think you have it.

And Obama is, himself, the surrogate for all black folks in America.

147 blueraven  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 7:25:25pm

re: #79 Tigger2005

I don't agree with Kennedy's reasoning at all. I think you do have a duty to stop, say, a blind man from walking in front of a car, as long as it does not put you in danger yourself.

Maybe a moral duty but not a legal one.

148 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 7:27:21pm

re: #36 celticdragon

The inference wasn't that he was gay. The inference was that he was a pederast or a pedophile.

Bieber is legal now!

149 Four More Tears  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 7:27:29pm

Are Charles Blow and Jonathan Capeheart playing good cop / bad cop?

150 Gus  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 7:27:51pm

Burp.

151 Achilles Tang  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 7:28:40pm

re: #139 Altar Boy of Darwinism

So you unintentionally put the words "Groping Supreme Court Justices" together?

Even better.

LOL

Actually I only now recognize that connection. It was a quote from the previous post but, I concur, exceptionally percipient of you.

152 Kragar  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 7:28:52pm

re: #148 SanFranciscoZionist

Bieber is legal now!

I was going to make a hunting joke about not needing to throw him back, but it would have led to him being stuffed and mounted, and we start the whole thing over again.

153 blueraven  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 7:29:46pm

re: #135 Altar Boy of Darwinism

Why is MSNBC darkening and lightening Joe Oliver right now???

Lighting issues in a remote studio.

154 Four More Tears  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 7:29:52pm

re: #151 Blue Spot Vlamingii Tang

LOL

Actually I only now recognize that connection. It was a quote from the previous post but, I concur, exceptionally percipient of you.

Meh. I have a gift for finding the disgusting side of anything...

155 Four More Tears  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 7:30:10pm

re: #153 blueraven

Lighting issues in a remote studio.

sigh

156 Four More Tears  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 7:32:52pm

Damn is Charles Blow angry right now...

157 blueraven  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 7:32:55pm

re: #155 Altar Boy of Darwinism

sigh

The whole damn thing is painful to watch.

158 moderatelyradicalliberal  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 7:36:26pm

re: #156 Altar Boy of Darwinism

Damn is Charles Blow angry right now...

That guy lost me when he said Zimmerman said "goon" instead of "coon" because that's what the kids are saying nowadays. I don't know if Zimmerman said coon, I'll admit it's hard to tell, but damn if that didn't sound like Santorum's "blah" people excuse. There's something wrong with that guy.

159 jaunte  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 7:37:22pm

re: #156 Altar Boy of Darwinism

I thought he was about to channel Walter from The Big Lebowski:
"You're out of your depth, Donny!"

160 jaunte  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 7:38:00pm
161 Stanghazi  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 7:38:12pm

re: #158 moderatelyradicalliberal

That guy lost me when he said Zimmerman said "goon" instead of "coon" because that's what the kids are saying nowadays. I don't know if Zimmerman said coon, I'll admit it's hard to tell, but damn if that didn't sound like Santorum's "blah" people excuse. There's something wrong with that guy.

This whole thing is shitty shitty shitty. And TM is still dead, and his parents still hurt.

162 moderatelyradicalliberal  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 7:38:23pm

re: #147 blueraven

Maybe a moral duty but not a legal one.

I don't see what it has to do with the mandate. The mandate is about people insuring themselves not others. Kennedy's mind might be slowing.

163 Charles Johnson  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 7:39:19pm

Fox News is contacting Joe Oliver right now to get him on Hannity.

This is the kind of guy Fox loves.

164 Four More Tears  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 7:39:44pm

re: #161 Hoodies for Justice. T

This whole thing is shitty shitty shitty. And TM is still dead, and his parents still hurt.

What about poor George Zim and his widdle bwoken nose?

165 moderatelyradicalliberal  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 7:40:15pm

re: #161 Hoodies for Justice. T

This whole thing is shitty shitty shitty. And TM is still dead, and his parents still hurt.

Joe Oliver will be declared a conservative hero and a model for other wayward blacks. He'll have a show on talk radio along with Larry Elder.

166 Stanghazi  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 7:40:32pm

re: #164 Altar Boy of Darwinism

What about poor George Zim and his widdle bwoken nose?

ya

167 Four More Tears  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 7:40:44pm

re: #163 Charles Johnson

Fox News is contacting Joe Oliver right now to get him on Hannity.

This is the kind of guy Fox loves.

That was probably the roughest interview that man will ever have to do.

168 Targetpractice  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 7:42:12pm

re: #164 Altar Boy of Darwinism

What about poor George Zim and his widdle bwoken nose?

I was wondering earlier why, if Zimmerman had suffered such serious injuries, that his lawyer didn't have pictures out there to the press already. But then checked Wiki and found out that he didn't even hire a lawyer until this past Saturday. By now, the bruises have likely faded to nothing and the swelling from his nose gone down.

169 moderatelyradicalliberal  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 7:42:26pm

re: #167 Altar Boy of Darwinism

That was probably the roughest interview that man will ever have to do.

Why is he even doing interviews? Seriously of all people to speak on Zimmerman's behalf? Where are his parents? Where are people who have actually seen or been in contact with him? This is just weird.

170 Gus  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 7:43:14pm

re: #163 Charles Johnson

Fox News is contacting Joe Oliver right now to get him on Hannity.

This is the kind of guy Fox loves.

Joe Oliver's "Terms of Endearment".

171 Targetpractice  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 7:43:49pm

re: #169 moderatelyradicalliberal

Why is he even doing interviews? Seriously of all people to speak on Zimmerman's behalf? Where are his parents? Where are people who have actually seen or been in contact with him? This is just weird.

Zimmerman's lawyer is the one getting Oliver on the news. Makes sense, a black guy who's out there on every show that will have him, telling them that George is a good friend who isn't racist in the least and would never do the things he's accused of.

172 Four More Tears  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 7:44:23pm

re: #169 moderatelyradicalliberal

Why is he even doing interviews? Seriously of all people to speak on Zimmerman's behalf? Where are his parents? Where are people who have actually seen or been in contact with him? This is just weird.

He's black.

No, I'm being serious.

173 Stanghazi  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 7:45:37pm

re: #168 Targetpractice

I was wondering earlier why, if Zimmerman had suffered such serious injuries, that his lawyer didn't have pictures out there to the press already. But then checked Wiki and found out that he didn't even hire a lawyer until this past Saturday. By now, the bruises have likely faded to nothing and the swelling from his nose gone down.

Actually I'm waiting for his first appearance to include white tape across the nose. Like a month doesn't matter. People will believe.

174 moderatelyradicalliberal  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 7:45:46pm

re: #172 Altar Boy of Darwinism

He's black.

No, I'm being serious.

Yeah, I know. I guess they just found the only black person who knew him and put him on TV. I hope he's getting paid because he's making a fool of himself.

175 Stanghazi  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 7:46:43pm

re: #171 Targetpractice

Zimmerman's lawyer is the one getting Oliver on the news. Makes sense, a black guy who's out there on every show that will have him, telling them that George is a good friend who isn't racist in the least and would never do the things he's accused of.

Will NOT take away the racial aspect of everything. Sorry. Mr. Oliver, please read the comments at Fox.

176 Targetpractice  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 7:46:46pm

re: #173 Hoodies for Justice. T

Actually I'm waiting for his first appearance to include white tape across the nose. Like a month doesn't matter. People will believe.

Honestly think that, by this point, the only way he's gonna show his face is if the Feds haul him out of the rathole he's hiding in. To show himself now, while there's folks out there baying for his blood, would be just short of suicidal.

177 Four More Tears  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 7:47:14pm

re: #174 moderatelyradicalliberal

Yeah, I know. I guess they just found the only black person who knew him and put him on TV. I hope he's getting paid because he's making a fool of himself.

He also used to be a CNN reporter, so he should be good at this whole going on TV thing.

In theory...

178 Stanghazi  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 7:47:52pm

re: #174 moderatelyradicalliberal

Yeah, I know. I guess they just found the only black person who knew him and put him on TV. I hope he's getting paid because he's making a fool of himself.

I want the dude in the neighborhood to release the email. Remember, he said that GZ's email said that he himself should not go out.

179 blueraven  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 7:48:02pm

re: #171 Targetpractice

Zimmerman's lawyer is the one getting Oliver on the news. Makes sense, a black guy who's out there on every show that will have him, telling them that George is a good friend who isn't racist in the least and would never do the things he's accused of.

Except for the part where he really doesn't know Zimmerman very well at all, and everything he knows about him is a "gut feeling"

Other than that..sure it makes sense.

180 Obdicut  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 7:48:52pm

re: #174 moderatelyradicalliberal

Yeah, I know. I guess they just found the only black person who knew him and put him on TV. I hope he's getting paid because he's making a fool of himself.

He may have plenty of black friends. People are perfectly capable of profiling young black men and having black friends, too. That's why the 'some of my best friends are black' thing is a fallacy.

181 Targetpractice  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 7:50:49pm

re: #179 blueraven

Except for the part where he really doesn't know Zimmerman very well at all, and everything he knows about him is a "gut feeling"

Other than that..sure it makes sense.

Like I said, this is a media blitz by Zimmerman's lawyer, trying to use Oliver to create a "sympathetic" side to his client. The major portion of Oliver's bit the last couple days is tell folks about how broken up George is, that he's been crying for days, and that he's all kinds of emotionally scarred over the shooting.

182 Stanghazi  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 7:52:10pm

re: #181 Targetpractice

Like I said, this is a media blitz by Zimmerman's lawyer, trying to use Oliver to create a "sympathetic" side to his client. The major portion of Oliver's bit the last couple days is tell folks about how broken up George is, that he's been crying for days, and that he's all kinds of emotionally scarred over the shooting.

Well, then he needs to call Trayvon's parents and talk it out.

183 Targetpractice  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 7:54:29pm

re: #182 Hoodies for Justice. T

Well, then he needs to call Trayvon's parents and talk it out.

Won't happen, certainly not while the specter of a state grand jury or the Feds bringing charges against him. His silence right now allows his attorney to keep maintaining his innocence. Any kind of apology could be argued as an admission of guilt.

184 Stanghazi  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 7:57:15pm

re: #183 Targetpractice

Won't happen, certainly not while the specter of a state grand jury or the Feds bringing charges against him. His silence right now allows his attorney to keep maintaining his innocence. Any kind of apology could be argued as an admission of guilt.

My pollyanna dream is that morality prevails.

Nah, he'll just move to another state. And Trayvon is still dead.

185 Kragar  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 7:57:46pm

Gingrich to lay off one-third of campaign staff

186 Achilles Tang  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 7:59:24pm

re: #185 Kragar

Gingrich to lay off one-third of campaign staff

I thought they did it for love; now I understand it was for money.

sarc sarc sarc.

187 austin_blue  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 7:59:37pm

re: #185 Kragar

Gingrich to lay off one-third of campaign staff

Looks like the Las Vegas spigot is drying up.

188 Targetpractice  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 8:00:55pm

re: #184 Hoodies for Justice. T

My pollyanna dream is that morality prevails.

Nah, he'll just move to another state. And Trayvon is still dead.

I feel like the Grinch when I tell folks that the most likely scenario is that both the grand jury and the Feds come back empty-handed, that the Sanford PD did its job well in denying them enough evidence to charge him with anything. And that he'll face no civil trial, since if even the Feds couldn't find enough to charge him with a crime, the odds of a civil court finding him guilty of wrongful death are vanishingly small.

189 Four More Tears  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 8:02:43pm

Stewart's poking fun at O'Donnell's chair-grilling from last night.

190 austin_blue  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 8:03:40pm

re: #188 Targetpractice

I feel like the Grinch when I tell folks that the most likely scenario is that both the grand jury and the Feds come back empty-handed, that the Sanford PD did its job well in denying them enough evidence to charge him with anything. And that he'll face no civil trial, since if even the Feds couldn't find enough to charge him with a crime, the odds of a civil court finding him guilty of wrongful death are vanishingly small.

Depends. Criminal trials need proof beyond a reasonable doubt. Civil trials need only 51% culpability.

191 Four More Tears  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 8:04:40pm

re: #190 austin_blue

Depends. Criminal trials need proof beyond a reasonable doubt. Civil trials need only 51% culpability.

SYG grants him immunity from civil trials.

192 freetoken  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 8:06:08pm

With all the rest of the wingnut-whirlpool consuming attention, things like this fly under the radar:


Evolution bill goes to Tennessee Gov. Bill Haslam

Will the governor sign it?

193 A Man for all Seasons  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 8:07:49pm

re: #191 Altar Boy of Darwinism

SYG grants him immunity from civil trials.

Really? Written in Law?
That suks

194 Targetpractice  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 8:08:14pm

re: #190 austin_blue

Depends. Criminal trials need proof beyond a reasonable doubt. Civil trials need only 51% culpability.

776.032 Immunity from criminal prosecution and civil action for justifiable use of force.—
(1) A person who uses force as permitted in s. 776.012, s. 776.013, or s. 776.031 is justified in using such force and is immune from criminal prosecution and civil action for the use of such force, unless the person against whom force was used is a law enforcement officer, as defined in s. 943.10(14), who was acting in the performance of his or her official duties and the officer identified himself or herself in accordance with any applicable law or the person using force knew or reasonably should have known that the person was a law enforcement officer. As used in this subsection, the term “criminal prosecution” includes arresting, detaining in custody, and charging or prosecuting the defendant.

*snip*

(3) The court shall award reasonable attorney’s fees, court costs, compensation for loss of income, and all expenses incurred by the defendant in defense of any civil action brought by a plaintiff if the court finds that the defendant is immune from prosecution as provided in subsection (1).

195 Kragar  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 8:08:16pm

re: #191 Altar Boy of Darwinism

SYG grants him immunity from civil trials.

So they can't prosecute because the cops didn't do their fucking jobs and actually investigate and he gets off civilly.

Fucking wingnuts.

196 William Barnett-Lewis  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 8:08:52pm

re: #191 Altar Boy of Darwinism

SYG grants him immunity from civil trials.

I'm not sure that has been shown in case law for the Federal District Court, especially wrt civil rights lawsuits.

197 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 8:09:01pm

Ok, well, I just spent the last 2 hours listening to the CSPAN telecast of the hearings today.

I am no more informed that I was before.

What did you do for the last 2 hours?

198 Kragar  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 8:09:19pm

Can't they say they can't determine justification, but lack the evidence to proceed criminally, but leave civil charges open?

199 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 8:11:56pm

re: #192 freetoken

With all the rest of the wingnut-whirlpool consuming attention, things like this fly under the radar:

Evolution bill goes to Tennessee Gov. Bill Haslam

Will the governor sign it?

What started in Tennessee, probably won't end in Tennessee.

200 Four More Tears  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 8:12:58pm

re: #196 William Barnett-Lewis

I'm not sure that has been shown in case law for the Federal District Court, especially wrt civil rights lawsuits.

Well that's something else entirely.

201 Targetpractice  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 8:13:05pm

It's actually kinda sad to think that, had this law existed back in '95, the O.J. trial would never have happened. He could have killed Ron and Nicole, then told the cops that it had been "self-defense."

202 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 8:13:13pm

Fanatism and Ignorance are forever busy

and need feeding.

203 William Barnett-Lewis  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 8:14:13pm

Thinking about everything regarding Zimmerman, I am left realizing the wisdom of the "mark of cain". But there are too many crazies out there, alas ...

204 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 8:14:14pm

Next up on the SCOTUS docket --SYG laws.

Seriously, I hope it goes that far.

205 freetoken  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 8:14:19pm

re: #199 ggt

What started in Tennessee, probably won't end in Tennessee.

It started in Tennessee 87 years ago.

206 moderatelyradicalliberal  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 8:14:25pm

Mitt Romney inadvertently makes the case for the individual mandate on Leno tonight.

[Link: blogs.wsj.com...]

With health care dominating the news as the Supreme Court hears arguments this week on whether Mr. Obama’s health care law is constitutional, Mr. Romney reiterated his pledge to repeal the law if he’s elected. He also said his administration would consider an individual’s circumstances when dealing with coverage for preexisting conditions.

“People who have done their best to get insured are going to be able to be covered,” Mr. Romney said. “But you don’t want everyone saying, ‘I am going to sit back until I get sick and then go buy insurance.’ That doesn’t make sense.”

Well gee whiz Mitt, how do you keep people from doing that?

207 Charles Johnson  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 8:15:13pm
208 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 8:15:15pm

re: #205 freetoken

It started in Tennessee 87 years ago.

Yes, I know.

209 A Man for all Seasons  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 8:16:01pm

re: #197 ggt

Ok, well, I just spent the last 2 hours listening to the CSPAN telecast of the hearings today.

I am no more informed that I was before.

What did you do for the last 2 hours?

1) Texting my GF..What is up with that? It's a 24 hour thing now
2) Blasting the tunes on the Stereo and watching Basketball on the Big Screen
3) Winston is playing with all his new toys running wild..He is the cutest dog in the world
4) Blogging..And emailing..There is no world without email.. No matter what..There is always work to do..

210 Kragar  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 8:16:02pm

re: #207 Charles Johnson

I thought his lap was with the rest of him.

211 Targetpractice  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 8:16:13pm

re: #206 moderatelyradicalliberal

Mitt Romney inadvertently makes the case for the individual mandate on Leno tonight.

[Link: blogs.wsj.com...]

Well gee whiz Mitt, how do you keep people from doing that?

Better question, what metric does he expect to use to decide whether a person has "done their best" to get coverage? And who makes the decision on that: The government or the insurance companies?

212 jaunte  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 8:16:26pm

re: #207 Charles Johnson

She's not too bright.

214 jaunte  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 8:17:20pm

re: #213 Gus

I guess Joe Oliver just couldn't resist the chance to get back in front of the tv cameras.

215 moderatelyradicalliberal  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 8:17:46pm

re: #204 ggt

Next up on the SCOTUS docket --SYG laws.

Seriously, I hope it goes that far.

This court would rule in favor of them. Seriously, there are 5 radical and partisan justices on the court.. They will uphold anything conservatives like and strike down anything conservatives don't like. I have no faith in this court to rule based on the Constitution or rationality. Somehow the wingers always win.

216 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 8:18:29pm

I don't understand why the Obamacare is being argued under the Commerce Clause.

I don't understand why forcing an individual to buy health insurance is fundamentally changing the realtionship between the individual and the government when individuals are already forced to contribute to what amounts to an annuity in the form of Social Security.

Yes, I know it really isn't an annuity.

Are we just arguing in homes of eventually ironing out a system that works instead of shelving the whole idea for another 10 years? I think just about everyone (except the extreme whackos) agree something has to be done.

217 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 8:19:25pm

re: #209 HoosierHoops

1) Texting my GF..What is up with that? It's a 24 hour thing now
2) Blasting the tunes on the Stereo and watching Basketball on the Big Screen
3) Winston is playing with all his new toys running wild..He is the cutest dog in the world
4) Blogging..And emailing..There is no world without email.. No matter what..There is always work to do..

excellent report --less than 1/2 a page, succinct. I like succinct.

Carry on . . .

218 William Barnett-Lewis  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 8:19:42pm

re: #204 ggt

Next up on the SCOTUS docket --SYG laws.

Seriously, I hope it goes that far.

It won't. There's not really anything actionable in the laws - in that respect they are very carefully crafted - so there is nothing there to overturn. That they are bad, racist laws is certainly true, but as state level laws with nothing that the federal government can claim jurisdiction over? Nope. Overturning more than a thousand years of common law precedent is not, alas, against the constitution.

The only real limit will be the use of federal lawsuits but even those could probably be legally capped by the congress and still pass constitutional muster.

219 Achilles Tang  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 8:19:43pm

Afghan soldiers arrested over Defence Ministry plot: NYT

Sounds like it's time to come home and let them get back to killing each other and managing their goats.//

220 jaunte  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 8:20:56pm

Daily Caller refuses attribution in the anonymous dump of Trayvon Martin's tweets:

221 Political Atheist  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 8:21:10pm

re: #216 ggt

I don't understand why the Obamacare is being argued under the Commerce Clause.

I don't understand why forcing an individual to buy health insurance is fundamentally changing the realtionship between the individual and the government when individuals are already forced to contribute to what amounts to an annuity in the form of Social Security.

Yes, I know it really isn't an annuity.

Are we just arguing in homes of eventually ironing out a system that works instead of shelving the whole idea for another 10 years? I think just about everyone (except the extreme whackos) agree something has to be done.

Just to put it as simply as I can-The authority to tax us all is much clearer than the authority to make us buy something. That is reserved to the states, or used to be. Like auto insurance if you drive. You have to buy it or break the law.

222 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 8:21:10pm

re: #215 moderatelyradicalliberal

This court would rule in favor of them. Seriously, there are 5 radical and partisan justices on the court.. They will uphold anything conservatives like and strike down anything conservatives don't like. I have no faith in this court to rule based on the Constitution or rationality. Somehow the wingers always win.

Well, I think it would distinguish between vigilantism and legitimate self-defense --perhaps clarify it for a national standard.

223 Targetpractice  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 8:21:25pm

re: #216 ggt

I don't understand why the Obamacare is being argued under the Commerce Clause.

I don't understand why forcing an individual to buy health insurance is fundamentally changing the realtionship between the individual and the government when individuals are already forced to contribute to what amounts to an annuity in the form of Social Security.

Yes, I know it really isn't an annuity.

Are we just arguing in homes of eventually ironing out a system that works instead of shelving the whole idea for another 10 years? I think just about everyone (except the extreme whackos) agree something has to be done.

The argument under the Commerce Clause is because there's no "opting out" of healthcare, everybody ends up in the market eventually. Unless you go off the grid from the moment your parents drop you from their insurance and live like a hermit, you're going to end up in the hospital at some time. By saying that you have a "choice" to stay out of the system until you eventually get sick/injured enough to show up at the hospital, what you're really saying is that you have a "choice" to dump your eventual medical costs on everybody else in the market.

Hence the mandate, which the Right used to champion, back when they thought it meant "personal responsibility."

224 Four More Tears  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 8:21:38pm

re: #216 ggt

I don't understand why the Obamacare is being argued under the Commerce Clause.

I don't understand why forcing an individual to buy health insurance is fundamentally changing the realtionship between the individual and the government when individuals are already forced to contribute to what amounts to an annuity in the form of Social Security.

Yes, I know it really isn't an annuity.

Are we just arguing in homes of eventually ironing out a system that works instead of shelving the whole idea for another 10 years? I think just about everyone (except the extreme whackos) agree something has to be done.

It's different because we're being forced to enter into a transaction in the private sector by the government. That's what they're arguing.

Also, they've it made it clear that we really fucking hate broccoli.

225 Stanghazi  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 8:22:38pm

re: #210 Kragar

I thought his lap was with the rest of him.

When does the tox tests come back? Such a silent "celeb" death.

226 William Barnett-Lewis  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 8:22:47pm

re: #218 William Barnett-Lewis

It won't. There's not really anything actionable in the laws - in that respect they are very carefully crafted - so there is nothing there to overturn. That they are bad, racist laws is certainly true, but as state level laws with nothing that the federal government can claim jurisdiction over? Nope. Overturning more than a thousand years of common law precedent is not, alas, against the constitution.

The only real limit will be the use of federal lawsuits but even those could probably be legally capped by the congress and still pass constitutional muster.

As a side note, we are very fortunate that thing like the double jeopardy clause and the like are hard coded in the constitution. Even Britain has shown how easy it is to throw out a thousand years of precedent because of one bad case.

227 freetoken  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 8:24:11pm

It's my contention that the creationism issue is not orthogonal to the race issues that the rednecks, neo-confederates, and other throwbacks keep vomiting up.

The two go hand in hand, along with certain other issues.

It is an identity confrontation; these are defining characteristics for defining the in-group for the atavists. There are a set of issues which define the "them", the "liberals", and that set includes various aspects of what I call modernism: a worldview based on empiricism ("science"), a society not organized around patriarchy (or matriarchy), a government not based on theocracy or monarchy but democracy, etc.

"Culture War" is inadequate to describe this, since "culture" as it means in anthropology is not how most Americans take this term. "Culture" to many people simply means arts, or quality.

A better term is I think "Identity War", or "Worldview War".

228 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 8:24:43pm

re: #221 Daniel Ballard

Just to put it as simply as I can-The authority to tax us all is much clearer than the authority to make us buy something. That is reserved to the states, or used to be. Like auto insurance if you drive. You have to buy it or break the law.

I still can't get the idea of the insurance system being mandated anything --defeats the purpose of risk management (IMHO). I think I've finally decided it is an attempt to slowly phase out the health insurance system in favor of a health care payment system that is not risk management. To do so in a sweeping legislation would be a hard transition for companies and employees.

I do think that is what will eventually have to come about. Many years of court cases and legislation and public debate will ensue.

229 Four More Tears  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 8:25:03pm

re: #221 Daniel Ballard

Just to put it as simply as I can-The authority to tax us all is much clearer than the authority to make us buy something. That is reserved to the states, or used to be. Like auto insurance if you drive. You have to buy it or break the law.

Or the easier example, Romneycare.

230 Stanghazi  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 8:26:19pm

OT but

231 moderatelyradicalliberal  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 8:26:33pm

re: #216 ggt

I don't understand why the Obamacare is being argued under the Commerce Clause.

I don't understand why forcing an individual to buy health insurance is fundamentally changing the realtionship between the individual and the government when individuals are already forced to contribute to what amounts to an annuity in the form of Social Security.

Yes, I know it really isn't an annuity.

Are we just arguing in homes of eventually ironing out a system that works instead of shelving the whole idea for another 10 years? I think just about everyone (except the extreme whackos) agree something has to be done.

No it's not something. There are only two things: single payer or a mandate for insurance with government controls on costs and prices. There is no other way to create a universal health care system that is affordable. Other countries of tried and it's not possible. I think you can figure out for yourself why either one would be nearly impossible to create in this stupid country of ours.

The parts of the ACA that aren't the mandate are very popular, except you can't afford them without the mandate. Americans want all of the goodies and none of the mechanism by which to get those goodies. Our health care system is a disgrace and will have to fall under it's own unsustainable weight if the ACA is overturned because no other president in his right mind will go near health care reform for another 20 years and we don't have 20 years before it folds. Just let it burn and rebuild it from the ashes. We are creating a situation with no other option. The good news is the only option will be single payer if the mandate is declared unconstitutional.

232 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 8:26:41pm

re: #223 Targetpractice

The argument under the Commerce Clause is because there's no "opting out" of healthcare, everybody ends up in the market eventually. Unless you go off the grid from the moment your parents drop you from their insurance and live like a hermit, you're going to end up in the hospital at some time. By saying that you have a "choice" to stay out of the system until you eventually get sick/injured enough to show up at the hospital, what you're really saying is that you have a "choice" to dump your eventual medical costs on everybody else in the market.

Hence the mandate, which the Right used to champion, back when they thought it meant "personal responsibility."

Yes, well, what I don't get about this is that 99.9% (I assume) of us are born in to the system. In a hospital--we incur costs. WE have to be vaccinnated etc.

If we present at an ER without insurance, we still get a bill--no? Somehow we pay. Individuals and taxpayers.

The idea that we are being forced to buy anything seems an absurd argument. We already get the services and we pay (in a round about way).

233 jaunte  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 8:27:24pm

Jonahderp.

234 Targetpractice  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 8:28:52pm

re: #228 ggt

I still can't get the idea of the insurance system being mandated anything --defeats the purpose of risk management (IMHO). I think I've finally decided it is an attempt to slowly phase out the health insurance system in favor of a health care payment system that is not risk management. To do so in a sweeping legislation would be a hard transition for companies and employees.

I do think that is what will eventually have to come about. Many years of court cases and legislation and public debate will ensue.

The mandate came as the bitter pill the administration and Congressional Democrats had to swallow to get insurance companies to agree to ending pre-conditions, allowing people to stay on their parent's insurance until 26, and other goodies. Without the mandate, the cost to the insurance companies for those goodies becomes unsustainable.

235 moderatelyradicalliberal  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 8:29:05pm

re: #222 ggt

Well, I think it would distinguish between vigilantism and legitimate self-defense --perhaps clarify it for a national standard.

I don't want Scalia, Thomas, Roberts, Alito and Kennedy deciding that question. I really don't. They are an arm of the conservative movement.

236 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 8:29:09pm

re: #227 freetoken

It's my contention that the creationism issue is not orthogonal to the race issues that the rednecks, neo-confederates, and other throwbacks keep vomiting up.

The two go hand in hand, along with certain other issues.

It is an identity confrontation; these are defining characteristics for defining the in-group for the atavists. There are a set of issues which define the "them", the "liberals", and that set includes various aspects of what I call modernism: a worldview based on empiricism ("science"), a society not organized around patriarchy (or matriarchy), a government not based on theocracy or monarchy but democracy, etc.

"Culture War" is inadequate to describe this, since "culture" as it means in anthropology is not how most Americans take this term. "Culture" to many people simply means arts, or quality.

A better term is I think "Identity War", or "Worldview War".

HA, while rereading the commerce clause --"Powers Granted to Congress" tonite, I ran accross the part where they are granted the power to fund Science . . .

I forget the rest of the wording, but I thought it was relevant.

237 Gus  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 8:29:26pm

re: #233 jaunte

Jonahderp.

Douhgy pantload!

Wait? Am I allowed to say that now? //

238 Varek Raith  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 8:29:55pm

re: #237 Gus

Douhgy pantload!

Wait? Am I allowed to say that now? //

For a small fee, yes.

239 jaunte  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 8:30:31pm

re: #237 Gus

Poppin' Fresh!

240 Stanghazi  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 8:30:55pm

re: #234 Targetpractice

The mandate came as the bitter pill the administration and Congressional Democrats had to swallow to get insurance companies to agree to ending pre-conditions, allowing people to stay on their parent's insurance until 26, and other goodies. Without the mandate, the cost to the insurance companies for those goodies becomes unsustainable.

Well, not hugely profitable.

241 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 8:31:18pm

re: #235 moderatelyradicalliberal

I don't want Scalia, Thomas, Roberts, Alito and Kennedy deciding that question. I really don't. They are an arm of the conservative movement.

welcome to america, the pigs run shit

242 freetoken  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 8:32:31pm

re: #236 ggt

To whit:

To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries;

Not only did they use the term "science" (= "knowledge") but also "progress"!

243 moderatelyradicalliberal  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 8:32:39pm

re: #234 Targetpractice

The mandate came as the bitter pill the administration and Congressional Democrats had to swallow to get insurance companies to agree to ending pre-conditions, allowing people to stay on their parent's insurance until 26, and other goodies. Without the mandate, the cost to the insurance companies for those goodies becomes unsustainable.

The only hope I have, and it is a small hope, it that this court loves corporations and won't want to hurt them. Either the whole law goes or it is entirely upheld because allowing preexisting conditions without a mandate would drive the insurance companies out of business or raise premiums to the point where individuals and businesses could not afford them.

244 Targetpractice  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 8:33:14pm

re: #232 ggt

Yes, well, what I don't get about this is that 99.9% (I assume) of us are born in to the system. In a hospital--we incur costs. WE have to be vaccinnated etc.

If we present at an ER without insurance, we still get a bill--no? Somehow we pay. Individuals and taxpayers.

The idea that we are being forced to buy anything seems an absurd argument. We already get the services and we pay (in a round about way).

What it comes down to is that the vast majority of those who do show up at ERs don't pay, either their insurance pays and they get a small portion of it or they get a bill that gets ratcheted down due to the financial situation of the person who showed up. What's taken out of the bill, if not the bill entirely due to non-payment, gets "eaten" by the hospital and passed on to other patients and their insurance companies in the way of increased costs.

So nobody can "opt-out" of healthcare, unless they die in some dark corner where nobody can find them. You eventually end up in the hospital, usually injured or deathly ill, and the cost of your care is picked up by those of us who carry insurance.

245 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 8:33:20pm

re: #234 Targetpractice

The mandate came as the bitter pill the administration and Congressional Democrats had to swallow to get insurance companies to agree to ending pre-conditions, allowing people to stay on their parent's insurance until 26, and other goodies. Without the mandate, the cost to the insurance companies for those goodies becomes unsustainable.

As I understand actuarial science, insurance would be bankrupt if they couldn't eliminate or surcharge certain risk.

That the whole concept of insurance.

I've worked in the field, although I mostly worked with Life Insurance --admin, clerical stuff. Some Property and Casualty.

WE don't want risk management, we want the bills paid and that is not, fundamentally, what insurance is.

And as people don't/won't take care of themselves and won't sign living wills etc, the costs are uncontrollable. Benefits will have to be cut or premiums will increase.

Everyone can't be happy with this issue. It's just not how nature works.

246 jaunte  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 8:33:29pm

via William Gibson:

247 Kragar  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 8:34:02pm

Fischer: The Constitution and Declaration are Covenants with God

When we look at these books of history of the Old Testament, one of the things we need to recognize is God has preserved these for us because he wants us to understand how God deals with nations, nations that have entered into some kind of a covenantal relationship with Him and we have done that. We have done that in the United States of America. Our Declaration of Independence and our Constitution represents a covenantal relationship with God.

In the Declaration of Independence we told God, look we are building the entire foundation of this political experiment on you ... So our whole approach to government, our whole approach to our political life, our shared common life is rooted and grounded in the Bible. We have made a covenant relationship with God.

We even dated both the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution, we dated them to the year of the birth of Jesus Christ. In fact, when the Founders, when they dated the Constitution 'the year of our Lord, 1787,' they referred to Jesus as 'our Lord." Don't let people tell you that Christ is not in the Constitution; He's in there.

248 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 8:34:16pm

re: #245 ggt

As I understand actuarial science, insurance would be bankrupt if they couldn't eliminate or surcharge certain risk.

That the whole concept of insurance.

I've worked in the field, although I mostly worked with Life Insurance --admin, clerical stuff. Some Property and Casualty.

WE don't want risk management, we want the bills paid and that is not, fundamentally, what insurance is.

And as people don't/won't take care of themselves and won't sign living wills etc, the costs are uncontrollable. Benefits will have to be cut or premiums will increase.

Everyone can't be happy with this issue. It's just not how nature works.

the way nature works is the powerful kill and eat the weak :)

249 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 8:34:56pm

re: #224 Altar Boy of Darwinism

It's different because we're being forced to enter into a transaction in the private sector by the government. That's what they're arguing.

Also, they've it made it clear that we really fucking hate broccoli.

BTW, broccoli is something I can take or leave.

I don't object to it, per se, but I don't want it every night.

ya know?

250 jaunte  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 8:36:05pm

Will trade cheese for broccoli, on a per-calorie basis.

251 freetoken  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 8:37:53pm

re: #248 windupbird is in the gravity well

the way nature works is the powerful kill and eat the weak :)

Red in tooth and claw.

252 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 8:38:01pm

re: #244 Targetpractice

What it comes down to is that the vast majority of those who do show up at ERs don't pay, either their insurance pays and they get a small portion of it or they get a bill that gets ratcheted down due to the financial situation of the person who showed up. What's taken out of the bill, if not the bill entirely due to non-payment, gets "eaten" by the hospital and passed on to other patients and their insurance companies in the way of increased costs.

So nobody can "opt-out" of healthcare, unless they die in some dark corner where nobody can find them. You eventually end up in the hospital, usually injured or deathly ill, and the cost of your care is picked up by those of us who carry insurance.

It's very, very difficult to opt-out of our system. As a nation we are co-dependent. You don't have to be a person who in anyway contributes and we can't stand the idea that you could suffer from illness and die while we stand and watch.

That is just how we are.

busybodies! doo-gooders, whatever.

253 Varek Raith  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 8:39:12pm

re: #246 jaunte

via William Gibson:

That is awesome.

So is this comment for the vid.

I am throwing money at the screen but nothing happens...

254 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 8:39:26pm

re: #247 Kragar

Fischer: The Constitution and Declaration are Covenants with God

Fischer never seems to get that "Give unto Caeser what is Caesers's" statement, does he?

255 Talking Point Detective  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 8:39:53pm

re: #231 moderatelyradicalliberal

No it's not something. There are only two things: single payer or a mandate for insurance with government controls on costs and prices. There is no other way to create a universal health care system that is affordable. Other countries of tried and it's not possible. I think you can figure out for yourself why either one would be nearly impossible to create in this stupid country of ours.

The parts of the ACA that aren't the mandate are very popular, except you can't afford them without the mandate. Americans want all of the goodies and none of the mechanism by which to get those goodies. Our health care system is a disgrace and will have to fall under it's own unsustainable weight if the ACA is overturned because no other president in his right mind will go near health care reform for another 20 years and we don't have 20 years before it folds. Just let it burn and rebuild it from the ashes. We are creating a situation with no other option. The good news is the only option will be single payer if the mandate is declared unconstitutional.

I hear ya', but I'm honestly not sure that any fee for service system will ever work. It's just a really stupid system for providing medical care.

256 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 8:39:59pm

re: #248 windupbird is in the gravity well

the way nature works is the powerful kill and eat the weak :)

Ah, but the weak can be very strong if there are enough of them.

257 jaunte  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 8:40:04pm

re: #244 Targetpractice

What it comes down to is that the vast majority of those who do show up at ERs don't pay, either their insurance pays and they get a small portion of it or they get a bill that gets ratcheted down due to the financial situation of the person who showed up. What's taken out of the bill, if not the bill entirely due to non-payment, gets "eaten" by the hospital and passed on to other patients and their insurance companies in the way of increased costs.

So nobody can "opt-out" of healthcare, unless they die in some dark corner where nobody can find them. You eventually end up in the hospital, usually injured or deathly ill, and the cost of your care is picked up by those of us who carry insurance.

It's interesting to read today's transcript of the Supreme Court and see some of the Justices ignoring what happens in real life.

258 moderatelyradicalliberal  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 8:40:40pm

re: #245 ggt

As I understand actuarial science, insurance would be bankrupt if they couldn't eliminate or surcharge certain risk.

That the whole concept of insurance.

I've worked in the field, although I mostly worked with Life Insurance --admin, clerical stuff. Some Property and Casualty.

WE don't want risk management, we want the bills paid and that is not, fundamentally, what insurance is.

And as people don't/won't take care of themselves and won't sign living wills etc, the costs are uncontrollable. Benefits will have to be cut or premiums will increase.

Everyone can't be happy with this issue. It's just not how nature works.

You are correct. The ACA is flawed, but it does understand the concept of risk pooling. You have to get everyone or nearly everyone in the pool in order to spread risk and reduce costs. In short you need lots of healthy people paying in to cover a minority of sick people at any given moment. People with preexisting conditions aren't looking to buy insurance, they are looking to have someone pay for the health care they need already. The mandate is the only way to get healthy people paying into the system to keep it from crashing under the weight of the costs. The risk pool needs everyone in it to work.

Health care for many reasons doesn't fit the insurance model or the perfect competition model. People don't get insurance because they might get sock they get it because they will get sick. You aren't a potential user of health care, you are an inevitable user of health car.

259 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 8:40:56pm

re: #232 ggt

Yes, well, what I don't get about this is that 99.9% (I assume) of us are born in to the system. In a hospital--we incur costs. WE have to be vaccinnated etc.

If we present at an ER without insurance, we still get a bill--no? Somehow we pay. Individuals and taxpayers.

The idea that we are being forced to buy anything seems an absurd argument. We already get the services and we pay (in a round about way).

The argument speaks to one of the deepest fears of much of the Wingnut GOP's target audience: that someone, somewhere, somehow, is getting something they don't deserve, and it's being bought with your money.

I think that one reason for this, honestly, is the broad economic gap between the point where you can't afford what you really need, and the point where you are actually entitled to many kinds of public assistance. Lots of us live in this gap when it comes to healthcare. We can't afford it, and we're not poor enough to get any help from anyone with it.

For a lot of people in this lower-middle-class void, it's easy to become convinced that 'other people', who don't look that much poorer than you, who are a different color, who have too many babies and no husband, who...all the stuff here...are getting away with something by getting welfare, Medicare, Section Eight, you name it. And it's being paid for, politicians are standing by to tell you, with YOUR TAX DOLLARS.

Easy for this to boil down into an irrational, buzzing sense of "I don't ever get any shit, and I'm not buying any shit for anyone else."

260 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 8:41:38pm

re: #255 Talking Point Detective

I hear ya', but I'm honestly not sure that any fee for service system will ever work. It's just a really stupid system for providing medical care.

When the population that "counted " was 1M or so, it probably worked real well.

You know, back in the utopian mythical past?

;0

261 freetoken  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 8:41:44pm

re: #231 moderatelyradicalliberal

Americans want all of the goodies and none of the mechanism by which to get those goodies.

Yes, this is a problem.

That's why I say: "Raise taxes."

262 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 8:42:26pm

re: #236 ggt

HA, while rereading the commerce clause --"Powers Granted to Congress" tonite, I ran accross the part where they are granted the power to fund Science . . .

I forget the rest of the wording, but I thought it was relevant.

To promote the progress of science and useful arts, by securing for limited times to authors and inventors the exclusive right to their respective writings and discoveries;

263 moderatelyradicalliberal  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 8:43:04pm

re: #255 Talking Point Detective

I hear ya', but I'm honestly not sure that any fee for service system will ever work. It's just a really stupid system for providing medical care.

Fee for service creates perverse incentives for doctors to do more, than may be necessary. Single payer or a universal mandate would allow for a combination of paying for services and outcomes. Most other Western nations do this.

264 Talking Point Detective  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 8:43:12pm

re: #227 freetoken

It's my contention that the creationism issue is not orthogonal to the race issues that the rednecks, neo-confederates, and other throwbacks keep vomiting up.

The two go hand in hand, along with certain other issues.

It is an identity confrontation; these are defining characteristics for defining the in-group for the atavists. There are a set of issues which define the "them", the "liberals", and that set includes various aspects of what I call modernism: a worldview based on empiricism ("science"), a society not organized around patriarchy (or matriarchy), a government not based on theocracy or monarchy but democracy, etc.

"Culture War" is inadequate to describe this, since "culture" as it means in anthropology is not how most Americans take this term. "Culture" to many people simply means arts, or quality.

A better term is I think "Identity War", or "Worldview War".

It's a tribal war. The identities are malleable. Look at the reversal among Republicans w/r/t an insurance mandate. It's about membership in a tribe.

265 Targetpractice  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 8:43:51pm

re: #252 ggt

It's very, very difficult to opt-out of our system. As a nation we are co-dependent. You don't have to be a person who in anyway contributes and we can't stand the idea that you could suffer from illness and die while we stand and watch.

That is just how we are.

busybodies! doo-gooders, whatever.

I've laid it out pretty clearly before to some who have said it should be their "choice" to buy insurance, by telling them that it should likewise be the "choice" of hospital ERs to turn people away due to inability to pay costs then and there. Saying that current laws mandating that ERs take anybody, regardless of ability to pay, is denying them their "choice" and is part of what's driving up costs.

266 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 8:44:00pm

re: #261 freetoken

Yes, this is a problem.

That's why I say: "Raise taxes."

yup

267 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 8:44:07pm

re: #259 SanFranciscoZionist

The argument speaks to one of the deepest fears of much of the Wingnut GOP's target audience: that someone, somewhere, somehow, is getting something they don't deserve, and it's being bought with your money.

I think that one reason for this, honestly, is the broad economic gap between the point where you can't afford what you really need, and the point where you are actually entitled to many kinds of public assistance. Lots of us live in this gap when it comes to healthcare. We can't afford it, and we're not poor enough to get any help from anyone with it.

For a lot of people in this lower-middle-class void, it's easy to become convinced that 'other people', who don't look that much poorer than you, who are a different color, who have too many babies and no husband, who...all the stuff here...are getting away with something by getting welfare, Medicare, Section Eight, you name it. And it's being paid for, politicians are standing by to tell you, with YOUR TAX DOLLARS.

Easy for this to boil down into an irrational, buzzing sense of "I don't ever get any shit, and I'm not buying any shit for anyone else."

There is also a small, but vocal and politically active group of upper-middle classers who do pay for everything and feel they get nothing. I seem to forget that even they are one hospital visit from total financial destruction.

268 William Barnett-Lewis  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 8:44:07pm

re: #247 Kragar

Gah, I'm not sure which part of that misreading hurts my head more - not understanding the theology of the various covenants with god or not understanding the social contract of the American Experiment or not understanding the explicit difference made between them by the founding fathers?

:banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead:

269 Varek Raith  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 8:44:19pm

re: #254 ggt

Fischer never seems to get that "Give unto Caeser what is Caesers's" statement, does he?

Pizza Pizza!

270 Talking Point Detective  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 8:45:18pm

re: #259 SanFranciscoZionist

Nailed it.

271 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 8:47:28pm

re: #247 Kragar

Fischer: The Constitution and Declaration are Covenants with God

"Anno Domini"--it's not just a date convention, it's the LAW.

272 William Barnett-Lewis  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 8:48:16pm

re: #261 freetoken

Yes, this is a problem.

That's why I say: "Raise taxes."

DING! DING! DING!

We have here a winner. Just like the Grinch's heart, our taxes are two sizes too small...

273 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 8:48:33pm

I wouldn't object to having my taxes paid if I thought I'd get health care out of it.

As it is, the only treatments that work are those not covered, but recommended by traditional medicine.

Physical therapy, acupuncture are all big, big money drains. So, they are limited or not covered at all.

I don't have the answers -- I just have this Pollyanna view that all will work-out, somehow. We just have to argue our way thru it.

Well, I do have two answers: education and contraception.

274 Four More Tears  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 8:49:08pm

Colbert just had a funny segment on "Tacocopter," a startup that wants to deliver tacos to people using UAVs.

275 Talking Point Detective  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 8:49:13pm

re: #259 SanFranciscoZionist

The argument speaks to one of the deepest fears of much of the Wingnut GOP's target audience: that someone, somewhere, somehow, is getting something they don't deserve, and it's being bought with your money.

I think that one reason for this, honestly, is the broad economic gap between the point where you can't afford what you really need, and the point where you are actually entitled to many kinds of public assistance. Lots of us live in this gap when it comes to healthcare. We can't afford it, and we're not poor enough to get any help from anyone with it.

For a lot of people in this lower-middle-class void, it's easy to become convinced that 'other people', who don't look that much poorer than you, who are a different color, who have too many babies and no husband, who...all the stuff here...are getting away with something by getting welfare, Medicare, Section Eight, you name it. And it's being paid for, politicians are standing by to tell you, with YOUR TAX DOLLARS.

Easy for this to boil down into an irrational, buzzing sense of "I don't ever get any shit, and I'm not buying any shit for anyone else."

I think another element is that people are concerned about their healthcare being "rationed" by government. Of course, that fear ignores that healthcare is already being rationed by the profit margin of insurance companies, and on the basis of ability to pay. For some reason, however, that seems less scarey to a lot of people - even those who don't have enough money to prevent their own healthcare from being rationed.

276 freetoken  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 8:49:19pm

re: #272 William Barnett-Lewis

We have here a winner. Just like the Grinch's heart, our taxes are two sizes too small...

At least they are too small for what we say we want.

277 Targetpractice  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 8:50:12pm

re: #261 freetoken

Yes, this is a problem.

That's why I say: "Raise taxes."

Which will be the next likely stop if the mandate gets struck down by not the law as a whole. The voters aren't gonna want to give up the goodies, both those already in place and the ones promised down the line. But without a mandate, the only other option is taking the money directly.

278 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 8:50:31pm

re: #275 Talking Point Detective

I think another element is that people are concerned about their healthcare being "rationed" by government. Of course, that fear ignores that healthcare is already being rationed by the profit margin of insurance companies, and on the basis of ability to pay. For some reason, however, that seems less scarey to a lot of people - even those who don't have enough money to prevent their own healthcare from being rationed.

Doctors don't even offer some treatments based on the insurance coverage a person has. I make a point of tell doctors I want to know and am willing to pay if I have to--Just to be sure I am presented with all the options the doctor can give.

279 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 8:51:07pm

re: #268 William Barnett-Lewis

Gah, I'm not sure which part of that misreading hurts my head more - not understanding the theology of the various covenants with god or not understanding the social contract of the American Experiment or not understanding the explicit difference made between them by the founding fathers?

:banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead:

the concept of God is just another lever for these guys to manipulate idiots

I'm not surprised when evangelical so-con psychos say anything, least of all when they make shit up about religion and history! That's their JOB. That's always been their JOB

I won't be surprised when they incite political assassinations, i won't be surprised when they murder, I won't be surprised when they preach the stoning of queers, I won't be surprised at any of it

I just won't be surprised! Stop being surprised, accept that they are exactly those people, there's millions of them, and they won't magically stop being evil and ignorant and hateful

280 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 8:51:25pm

re: #274 Altar Boy of Darwinism

Colbert just had a funny segment on "Tacocopter," a startup that wants to deliver tacos to people using UAVs.

While the idea of receiving a box of tacos by chopper is extremely appealing, even my half-assed environmentalism does start to kick a little at the thought.

281 Targetpractice  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 8:52:01pm

re: #275 Talking Point Detective

I think another element is that people are concerned about their healthcare being "rationed" by government. Of course, that fear ignores that healthcare is already being rationed by the profit margin of insurance companies, and on the basis of ability to pay. For some reason, however, that seems less scarey to a lot of people - even those who don't have enough money to prevent their own healthcare from being rationed.

That's because the rationing either "happens to other people" or is so innocuous that we don't do more than rage at the company for a bit before grudgingly writing the check. I've seen people who got bills for things "already paid for," then mutter darkly as they stroked out a check for something that the insurance company cheerfully announced isn't covered by the insurance plan.

282 moderatelyradicalliberal  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 8:52:09pm

re: #259 SanFranciscoZionist

The argument speaks to one of the deepest fears of much of the Wingnut GOP's target audience: that someone, somewhere, somehow, is getting something they don't deserve, and it's being bought with your money.

I think that one reason for this, honestly, is the broad economic gap between the point where you can't afford what you really need, and the point where you are actually entitled to many kinds of public assistance. Lots of us live in this gap when it comes to healthcare. We can't afford it, and we're not poor enough to get any help from anyone with it.

For a lot of people in this lower-middle-class void, it's easy to become convinced that 'other people', who don't look that much poorer than you, who are a different color, who have too many babies and no husband, who...all the stuff here...are getting away with something by getting welfare, Medicare, Section Eight, you name it. And it's being paid for, politicians are standing by to tell you, with YOUR TAX DOLLARS.

Easy for this to boil down into an irrational, buzzing sense of "I don't ever get any shit, and I'm not buying any shit for anyone else."

This is another argument for a universal system. Our current way of doing things does breed resentment. Medicare is popular because everybody gets it.

As a single, child-free (not childless) person I feel a little resentful during tax season, that people get tax credits for having children. So I understand the feeling.

283 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 8:52:55pm

re: #275 Talking Point Detective

I think another element is that people are concerned about their healthcare being "rationed" by government. Of course, that fear ignores that healthcare is already being rationed by the profit margin of insurance companies, and on the basis of ability to pay. For some reason, however, that seems less scarey to a lot of people - even those who don't have enough money to prevent their own healthcare from being rationed.

That's a big aspect of it. It's been sold aggressively, of course.

284 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 8:53:49pm

Death Panels, I hear alot about Death Panels.

Frankly, the idea of not having a living will is selfish to me.

Why would anyone want to suck the system by sitting in wheel chair drooling in a nursing home with no hope of recovery known to science? My family is pretty cohesive on this subject, so I'm comfortable talking about it.

My Dear Ole' Dad told the doctor to shoot him. The doctor said he was "fresh out of bullets". Dad told him to go get some, "he wasn't going anywhere."

I know many people are not comfortable with that kind of frankness. But there it is, I don't want to be kept alive like that.

285 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 8:54:31pm

re: #279 windupbird is in the gravity well

the concept of God is just another lever for these guys to manipulate idiots

I'm not surprised when evangelical so-con psychos say anything, least of all when they make shit up about religion and history! That's their JOB. That's always been their JOB

I won't be surprised when they incite political assassinations, i won't be surprised when they murder, I won't be surprised when they preach the stoning of queers, I won't be surprised at any of it

I just won't be surprised! Stop being surprised, accept that they are exactly those people, there's millions of them, and they won't magically stop being evil and ignorant and hateful

It's a lucrative business if you can crack into it.

They take Visa, Mastercard, American Express and PayPal.

286 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 8:54:34pm

re: #278 ggt

Doctors don't even offer some treatments based on the insurance coverage a person has. I make a point of tell doctors I want to know and am willing to pay if I have to--Just to be sure I am presented with all the options the doctor can give.

often, nurse practitioners offer superior care to doctors

sometimes you don't need a diagnostician hammer who sees your health as a nail and has no time for you besides writing a scrip

sometimes the option is to seek care from someone who is not being actively lobbied by the AMA to avoid treatments that can't be monetized

287 Talking Point Detective  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 8:54:36pm

re: #283 SanFranciscoZionist

That's a big aspect of it. It's been sold aggressively, of course.

People really like having a boogeyman. It sells well.

288 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 8:54:51pm

re: #280 SanFranciscoZionist

While the idea of receiving a box of tacos by chopper is extremely appealing, even my half-assed environmentalism does start to kick a little at the thought.

But, are they good tacos or Taco Bell?

289 Four More Tears  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 8:55:00pm

re: #282 moderatelyradicalliberal

This is another argument for a universal system. Our current way of doing things does breed resentment. Medicare is popular because everybody gets it.

As a single, child-free (not childless) person I feel a little resentful during tax season, that people get tax credits for having children. So I understand the feeling.

The idea of tax credits for people who have health insurance also feels wrong. More taxes for people who don't have insurance. Yay. There's your penalty for not having health insurance right there.

290 moderatelyradicalliberal  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 8:55:13pm

re: #283 SanFranciscoZionist

That's a big aspect of it. It's been sold aggressively, of course.

And yet the people who should be the most fearful of government rationing are already on government insurance: the elderly, the disabled and the poor.

Derp!

291 Targetpractice  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 8:55:43pm

re: #284 ggt

Death Panels, I hear alot about Death Panels.

Frankly, the idea of not having a living will is selfish to me.

Why would anyone want to suck the system by sitting in wheel chair drooling in a nursing home with no hope of recovery known to science? My family is pretty cohesive on this subject, so I'm comfortable talking about it.

My Dear Ole' Dad told the doctor to shoot him. The doctor said he was "fresh out of bullets". Dad told him to go get some, "he wasn't going anywhere."

I know many people are not comfortable with that kind of frankness. But there it is, I don't want to be kept alive like that.

All my closest kin have been informed that if I ever find myself in a situation where I cannot care for myself, where I am nothing but a burden, and when there is no chance I'll ever get better, to take me behind the shed and put two shells into my noggin.

292 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 8:57:06pm

re: #284 ggt

Death Panels, I hear alot about Death Panels.

Frankly, the idea of not having a living will is selfish to me.

Why would anyone want to suck the system by sitting in wheel chair drooling in a nursing home with no hope of recovery known to science? My family is pretty cohesive on this subject, so I'm comfortable talking about it.

My Dear Ole' Dad told the doctor to shoot him. The doctor said he was "fresh out of bullets". Dad told him to go get some, "he wasn't going anywhere."

I know many people are not comfortable with that kind of frankness. But there it is, I don't want to be kept alive like that.

People do not like to talk about death, there is that.

I remember years ago, having a job that offered life insurance. The HR lady asked if I wanted to buy in for more than the thirty thousand the company offered.

I told her "I have no husband and no kids. If I walk in front of a bus tomorrow, thirty thousand will pay for a funeral and cover my credit card debts. My folks can give the rest to the SPCA. I'll let you know if anything changes."

She was shocked enough to say "Most people aren't that comfortable talking about this."

293 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 8:57:22pm

re: #286 windupbird is in the gravity well

often, nurse practitioners offer superior care to doctors

sometimes you don't need a diagnostician hammer who sees your health as a nail and has no time for you besides writing a scrip

sometimes the option is to seek care from someone who is not being actively lobbied by the AMA to avoid treatments that can't be monetized

I love Nurse Practitioners and Physician Assistants.

Leaves the doctor free to see people who really need a doctor and the Nurse and PA's tend to be the kind of people who can feel you out to make sure you might not really need to see the doctor.

294 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 8:57:56pm

re: #282 moderatelyradicalliberal

This is another argument for a universal system. Our current way of doing things does breed resentment. Medicare is popular because everybody gets it.

As a single, child-free (not childless) person I feel a little resentful during tax season, that people get tax credits for having children. So I understand the feeling.

How about we triple tax credits for kids, and triple taxes on capital gains?


I got 99 problems, and a tax break for parents ain't one ;-)

295 moderatelyradicalliberal  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 8:59:16pm

re: #289 Altar Boy of Darwinism

The idea of tax credits for people who have health insurance also feels wrong. More taxes for people who don't have insurance. Yay. There's your penalty for not having health insurance right there.

No, the real penalty for not having health insurance is not being able to pay to see a doctor when you need and ending up in the ER with a huge bill by the time you really get sick. And you wouldn't be the only one paying it.

296 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 8:59:33pm

re: #294 windupbird is in the gravity well

How about we triple tax credits for kids, and triple taxes on capital gains?

I got 99 problems, and a tax break for parents ain't one ;-)

But Children are a Gift From God.

I wish people would get it in their heads that this isn't the Middle Ages and we just didn't lose a large part of the population due to plague.

We don't need to incentivize childbearing anymore.

297 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 9:00:30pm

re: #293 ggt

I love Nurse Practitioners and Physician Assistants.

Leaves the doctor free to see people who really need a doctor and the Nurse and PA's tend to be the kind of people who can feel you out to make sure you might not really need to see the doctor.

problem is doctors are lobbying against the power of nurse practitioners to treat people, prescribe meds, etc

Which is great, doctors are fleeing GP to become big $$ specialists, but they don't want NPs to become the family doctor. "I don't want it, but they can't have it either!'

Comedy!

298 palomino  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 9:01:23pm

Truly disgusting comments at breitbart and fox. These folks are happy because a black kid got shot. One less thug on the streets in their minds. And they instinctively take Zimmerman's side, despite the history of such events, particularly in Dixie. Then they argue that blacks are the "real racists." Would be laughable if not so poisonous.

I instinctively take the other side. Because a civilian who leaves his car in armed pursuit of a stranger has crossed the line from nosy self-appointed neighborhood watchman to dangerous self-appointed cop looking for trouble. Ask yourself: who went out that night looking for trouble? The guy armed with the gun, or the guy armed with candy?

The smearing of Trayvon Martin is a shameful act perpetrated by the same folks who jumped for joy when Medgar Evers and MLK got shot.

299 William Barnett-Lewis  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 9:02:12pm

re: #279 windupbird is in the gravity well

the concept of God is just another lever for these guys to manipulate idiots

I'm not surprised when evangelical so-con psychos say anything, least of all when they make shit up about religion and history! That's their JOB. That's always been their JOB

I won't be surprised when they incite political assassinations, i won't be surprised when they murder, I won't be surprised when they preach the stoning of queers, I won't be surprised at any of it

I just won't be surprised! Stop being surprised, accept that they are exactly those people, there's millions of them, and they won't magically stop being evil and ignorant and hateful

I can't do that. For every American taliban-esque fundie I've known, I've known five to ten good Christians, Jews, Pagans, Hindus, Sikhs, Muslims, Shintos (and guh knows all the others I'm not listing) & Atheists. Belief, or the lack of it, is not the key to evil. There are too many other things in people that gives rise to evil - power, sex, fear & money especially - that does not require belief to engage.

300 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 9:03:28pm

re: #299 William Barnett-Lewis

I can't do that. For every American taliban-esque fundie I've known, I've known five to ten good Christians, Jews, Pagans, Hindus, Sikhs, Muslims, Shintos (and guh knows all the others I'm not listing) & Atheists. Belief, or the lack of it, is not the key to evil. There are too many other things in people that gives rise to evil - power, sex, fear & money especially - that does not require belief to engage.

Note I said ""social conservatism", not belief in general.

And when I say social conservatives, I mean the American flavor, (because I can't vote anywhere else) and all that implies. The Bachmanns, the Santorums, the Fischers, and their ilk, their drones, their useful idiots.

Anyone who lobbies against my rights is evil to me, anyone who believes God hates someone for who they love is evil to me, and i'll piss on their grave when they're dead

301 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 9:05:36pm

re: #299 William Barnett-Lewis

I can't do that. For every American taliban-esque fundie I've known, I've known five to ten good Christians, Jews, Pagans, Hindus, Sikhs, Muslims, Shintos (and guh knows all the others I'm not listing) & Atheists. Belief, or the lack of it, is not the key to evil. There are too many other things in people that gives rise to evil - power, sex, fear & money especially - that does not require belief to engage.

I think there is a large constituency who (as I've said) really do live under rocks.

They are so isolated from metropolitan areas that they don't ever see anyone that looks different from them. Either that or they are just blind.

302 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 9:13:30pm

re: #293 ggt

I love Nurse Practitioners and Physician Assistants.

Leaves the doctor free to see people who really need a doctor and the Nurse and PA's tend to be the kind of people who can feel you out to make sure you might not really need to see the doctor.

That awkward moment, when the nurse practitioner is examining my testicles for possible lumps, and I run my fingers through her hair.
/

303 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 9:22:07pm

re: #302 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks

That awkward moment, when the nurse practitioner is examining my testicles for possible lumps, and I run my fingers through her hair.
/

*ahem* not all Nurse Practitioners are women . . .

304 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 9:24:15pm

re: #303 ggt

*ahem* not all Nurse Practitioners are women . . .

Yeah, I was gonna say, that moment is extra awkward when it's a dude.
/works for breast exams too, btw. try it.

305 Tigger2005  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 2:31:45am

re: #123 Gus

This is almost similar to the recent outburst on another flight..."Flight attendant subdued after ranting about crashing, 9/11 attacks..." However here:

Good grief, flight attendants are going to get the same reputation as postal workers at this rate. But "going attendant" just doesn't have the same ring as "going postal."

306 tajsagay01  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 8:29:56am

its just shocking! am stunned. let the poor boy's soul rest in peace!


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